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Oral Answers to Questions
(11 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con)
1. What progress his Department has made on the roll-out of better bus areas.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)
Last year we announced our intention to establish a small number of new better bus areas, within which bus subsidy would be devolved to the local authority to invest in bus improvement measures in partnership with local operators. The Department has made good progress with five new better bus areas having been announced this year. These are in Sheffield, York, the west of England—the area centred around Bath and Bristol—Merseyside and Nottingham.
Mel Stride
I congratulate my hon. Friend on the speed with which this new scheme has been rolled out, but may I urge him to ensure we have fair and firm targeting, particularly on remote rural areas? I have a number of villages in my constituency that have no bus service at all, and many that do have very little provision.
Mr Goodwill
Earlier this year we announced that current levels of Government support for buses will be maintained until at least 2016, and we have also ring-fenced a portion of bus subsidy that will be devolved to local authorities from January, providing greater security to vital local services. In addition, in 2011-12 a total of £20 million in funding was targeted to rural authorities to support those very vital community transport solutions.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
What is the Minister doing to improve bus services for young people? I recently met some young people on the national citizenship scheme in my constituency, and they raised the particular problem that for them travelling around after 6 pm on unaffordable transport is almost impossible. What are the Government doing to help young people travel around in their areas?
Mr Goodwill
We believe these better bus areas are a more intelligent way of supporting bus services. Rather than the crude method of a straightforward fuel subsidy, the partnership between local authorities and bus companies will encourage things such as smart ticketing, better information and bus priority schemes, which make buses more reliable for young people and for everyone else.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
When will the Minister get his act together on buses? Most people in this country travel on buses. Buses are really important to our country, but the bus industry feels neglected by this Government—and why cannot I have a new innovative bus scheme in Huddersfield and Kirklees?
Mr Goodwill
I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman should declare his interest in having a bus pass, which, of course, the Conservatives promised—
Mr Goodwill
Despite what we heard in the last general election campaign, the Conservatives have kept the concessionary travel scheme for pensioners, along with all the other benefits for pensioners. Some 40% of money going into buses outside London is Government support and we believe we are discharging our responsibilities in that regard.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
2. What procedures are available to communities to seek mitigation of the effects of the High Speed 2 route with respect to visual, aural and vibration disturbance.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
There has already been widespread consultation on phase 1. In addition, there will be a consultation on the environmental statement following the deposit of the hybrid Bill and the opportunity to petition the Select Committee established as part of the hybrid Bill process. For phase 2, the route consultation is currently under way and is due to end in January 2014.
Michael Fabricant
A few months ago, I and a group of people from Lichfield came to see the Secretary of State to discuss the monstrous 20-metre high viaduct planned for the HS2 crossing over Lichfield. He will know that this affects not only Lichfield, but the constituencies of my hon. Friends the Members for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher) and for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy), because of the height of the line. A plan for mitigation was developed together with HS2 engineers, and this has been completely ignored. When can we have some hope that there will be any mitigation for us in Staffordshire?
Mr McLoughlin
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. He rightly says that he never loses an opportunity to make clear his objection to this viaduct. It was part of a route realignment which was done initially to help mitigate some of the effects around Lichfield, but once the Bill is deposited and following Second Reading there will, of course, be an opportunity for those directly affected to petition the Select Committee.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
Does the Secretary of State know of any other countries which, on building their second high-speed railway line, have chosen to connect it to the first via a single-track railway line with a capacity of three trains per hour?
Mr McLoughlin
The important thing is that there will be a connection between HS1 and HS2. That will allow direct access for trips right through Europe from places that at present do not have those connections. That is important. We believe the three trains per hour that will be able to go directly from Birmingham, Manchester or Leeds to Paris or Brussels or other European destinations is a very positive move.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
As my right hon. Friend knows, the preferred route for HS2 phase 2 goes straight through the village of Hopton in my constituency, as well as Ingestre, Yarlet and Marston and close by to Great Harwood. What measures can HS2 take to mitigate the effects on these communities, either through extra tunnelling or realignment of the route?
Mr McLoughlin
What I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) in my original answer was that the consultation for phase 2 is still ongoing and it would be wrong of me at this stage to pre-empt it. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) will be making strong representations through the consultation process, and I will consider them in due course.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
Pursuant to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant), I know that the Secretary of State takes these matters very seriously, but does he agree that where mitigations are small scale, such as those proposed by my constituents in the Knox Grave Lane community, HS2 should be able to move ahead with them quickly and not give conflicting messages to the community affected? I have written to him on this matter. Will he give the letter careful consideration?
Mr McLoughlin
Of course I will consider any points that my hon. Friend has written to me about. Consistency in HS2’s responses on these lines that directly affect people is very important. I am disturbed to hear that inconsistent advice has been given by HS2, and I will want to look into it.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
3. What assessment he has made of the potential of High Speed 1 domestic services in Kent to expand.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
I recognise the importance of domestic High Speed 1 services to the people and economies of Kent. The Department is currently negotiating a direct award with Southeastern, which operates them, in which we will consider what improvements can be made to services. We are also undertaking an evaluation study of the High Speed 1 infrastructure, which is due to report in spring next year.
Charlie Elphicke
I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. High-speed services are economically transformational for east Kent. Constituents of mine in Deal, and those in Sandwich, wish to have an all-day Javelin high-speed service. Will Ministers help to make that happen?
Mr McLoughlin
I know how very important the high-speed service has been to my hon. Friend’s constituents. Although high-speed rail does not run right down to Deal or Sandwich, his constituents get the benefit from HS1 as the Javelin train from St Pancras carries on to serve them. There are ongoing negotiations about the franchise extension, which we will be doing with Southeastern, and I will certainly bear his comments in mind.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
4. What plans he has to extend railway electrification.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
In the rail investment strategy the Government are investing in more than 800 miles of electrification up to 2019. This includes lines in the north-west, north trans-Pennine, midland main line, electric spine, Great Western main line and Welsh valley areas. That is a substantial advance in electrification of the railways in this country.
Andrew Jones
I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. A couple of weeks ago, I launched the business case for the electrification of the Harrogate to Knaresborough rail line, which would bring more frequent and quicker services for passengers, and a great return for taxpayers from public money. Will he meet me to discuss this opportunity?
Mr McLoughlin
I will be delighted to meet my hon. Friend, who wastes no opportunity to raise this case for electrification with me. He has been a doughty campaigner for it. We have received a copy of the business case for the electrification of the Leeds, Harrogate and York line. The case looks promising and I am more than happy to discuss it further with him.
Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)
Plans for electrification are very welcome, but when will rolling stock be available for the electrified lines in the north, now that that there has been such a delay in the procurement for the Thameslink project?
Mr McLoughlin
I hope that that delay, on which there was a Public Accounts Committee report recently, will not lead to long-term delay. I am confident that once we have done the electrification the rolling stock will be ready to fulfil the needs we all want it to fulfil.
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
The Secretary of State will be aware that people in Cumbria very much welcome the plans for electrification of the lakes line to Windermere and the benefits that will bring to the economy and the environment. Will he also consider the electrification of the Furness line from Lancaster to Barrow, which goes through my constituency? That would link the industrial centres of Barrow and the western Lake district to the main line.
Mr McLoughlin
Indeed, and when I was in my hon. Friend’s constituency in the summer I was made very much aware of the desire for that line to be electrified. One great thing that has happened in the railways is that the constant request of any Secretary of State now is for more services and better services. That just shows how important the railways are now to our national life, and I will look at the case he makes.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
Will the Secretary of State tell me why under the current arrangements the electrification of the route to Hull will stop at Selby, which, as I am sure he knows, is several miles short of Hull? Will he do everything he can to support the Hull trains proposal to extend the electrification to Hull?
Mr McLoughlin
I could point out to the hon. Lady how much of the line was electrified by the previous Labour Government in 13 years: 10 miles, as opposed to the 880 miles that we are planning to electrify as part of our commitment to the railways. She is making yet another case for further electrification of an important line and I shall certainly look at the case again in detail.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
The Secretary of State will know that the welcome electrification of the midland main line will miss out the two stations in my constituency at Langley Mill and Alfreton. Will he consider the plans to complete that little section so that the whole line is electrified?
Mr McLoughlin
I had a meeting on Monday morning with the people operating the midland main line franchise and that particular issue was pointed out to me. We plan to electrify the whole line from St Pancras up to Sheffield, but my hon. Friend is right that part of it, which goes through his constituency, is missed out. I have no doubt that we will want to look at that as we are doing the rest of the line.
Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)
Last November, I asked the Secretary of State whether one of the intentions behind the electrification of the midland main line was to speed up journey times, in which case the line would need the new inter-city express trains and not the transfer of old rolling stock from the east coast line, which would be slower and would increase journey times. The Secretary of State could not answer me then. Can he tell me now whether the electrified midland main line will get the new rolling stock needed to speed up journey times, which is what we both want to see?
Mr McLoughlin
I travelled down on the line—in the cab, as it happens—on Monday morning and I saw some of the work that is going on for the planned electrification. A number of bridges are being replaced, which is necessary. That work is well under way and has started well. I will consider the questions about new rolling stock in due course when I come to consider the remaining period of the franchise.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
5. What progress he has made on reviewing the structure of rail passenger fares.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Stephen Hammond)
The “Rail Fares and Ticketing: Next Steps” report was published on 9 October following a wide-ranging review and public consultation. It contains a number of measures to give passengers a better, more modern, and more flexible deal on fares and to improve the current ticketing system.
Mr Buckland
Swindon commuters who have no choice but to travel at peak times face increasing fares and want value for money. What plans does my hon. Friend have to increase flexibility and reduce costs for rail fare payers and season ticket holders?
Stephen Hammond
My hon. Friend is right. The train operating companies set the prices for season tickets and for fares. I recognise that Swindon is a popular commuting town that benefits from the frequent services on high-speed trains to London, Wales and the west country. Nevertheless, he is right and he will have noticed the announcement from the Government restricting “flex”, which means that none of his commuters will face a fare increase of more than 3% above inflation from January 2014.
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
15. In the autumn, East Coast achieved the highest passenger satisfaction rates since records began, so why are the Government wasting taxpayers’ time and money privatising that successful service rather than getting to grips with the cost of living crisis and this Government’s inflation-busting rail fare price rises?
Stephen Hammond
The hon. Lady will obviously have read the Brown report, which suggests that franchising is the best way to secure better deals and more investment for passengers. That is why we are continuing to franchise and are putting the east coast main line out to franchise.
Mr Simon Burns (Chelmsford) (Con)
I remind my hon. Friend that commuters who are reliant on coming into London to work do not have any flexibility in their work times. What ideas does he have to get a better deal for commuters, who are a captive market and who have regulated fares?
Stephen Hammond
I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend for the excellent work that he did in contributing to the rail fares review. He will know that we have restricted fares to the retail prices index plus 1%, which “flex” has also reduced, so no one will pay more than 3% above RPI. He will also remember that the document suggests considering ways to provide season ticket holders with more flexible arrangements.
Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)
The Government’s fare review took 18 months and has delivered fare rises of up to 6%. That 6% is twice the rate of inflation and is cold comfort for commuters struggling as their incomes fall in real terms. Is that really the best the Minister can do for commuters struggling with the Government’s cost of living crisis?
Stephen Hammond
The hon. Lady will know that the formula for regulated fares is RPI plus 1%. Unlike her Government, we have reduced flexibility to 2%. We have made that permanent, something that the Government of the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood), who is shouting from the opposite Bench, did not do. She may just wish to remember this, which was in the franchise arrangement from 1 January 2011:
“the amendment to the Franchise Agreement set out in this notice of amendment shall be reversed.”
They did not scrap it; they put it in place for one year only.
Mary Creagh
The Department for Transport announced in September that it would cap standard return fares at £500. Given that no one will benefit from that £500 fare cap, is that not just another example of the Minister’s smoke and mirrors on fares?
Stephen Hammond
A number of things were announced in that review. The fare cap was a voluntary initiative put in place by the rail industry. We have not assessed, and nor has anyone else, how many passengers will benefit from that. We have also announced a reduction in the fares “basket flex”, a trial of single-leg pricing for off-peak returns, a trial of flexible ticketing, including discounted fares in quieter periods, and a new code of practice on ticketing information.
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
14. Can my hon. Friend assure me that everything is being done to reduce the cost of running the railways and the inefficiencies that the previous Government left behind so that we can move towards an era of no above-inflation rises?
Stephen Hammond
I am delighted to confirm to my hon. Friend that the package of measures that we have worked up will continue to bear down on the cost of running the railways. We recognise the cost of living and the implications of fare increases. That is why the Government are doing something to help commuters and anyone travelling on the railways. It is noticeable that Passenger Focus recommended the recent package that the Government put forward.
John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con)
6. What steps he is taking to increase the volume of freight carried by rail.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Stephen Hammond)
The Government support the transfer of freight from road to rail. We are investing £400 million in rail freight infrastructure for the investment period out to 2014. The rail freight grant is helping to remove more than 800,000 lorry journeys. Ultimately, rail freight needs more capacity on our network, which is why we are taking forward High Speed 2.
John Stevenson
In Carlisle we have DRS—Direct Rail Services—a very successful rail freight company that is looking to expand. Can the Minister assure me that everything will be done to ensure that companies such as DRS are given every opportunity to expand not just their volume but their capacity?
Stephen Hammond
I congratulate my hon. Friend on highlighting the work of DRS. It is indeed a very successful rail freight company. The Government are committed to the growth of the rail freight industry, and we recognise the contribution that companies such as DRS make. We are continuing to look for every opportunity to support the expansion of the freight industry and encourage transfer to rail where it is practical, economic and environmentally sustainable.
Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
Will the Minister engage with his colleagues in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills? A number of key companies in my constituency are losing competitiveness because they cannot move their goods fast enough across the UK into mainland Europe, in particular because there are huge blockages at the top end of the M6. A little bit of joined-up thinking could radically improve Britain’s competitiveness. Will he do something about it?
Stephen Hammond
This Government are known for their joined-up thinking, so if the hon. Gentleman wishes to write to me about the particular problem in his constituency, I will look at it and speak to my colleagues in BIS.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that the wise decision to invest £45 million in redoubling the Kemble to Swindon railway line is a huge improvement, not just for passengers but for freight? Does this not reinforce the point that this Government invest not only in HS2, which is right, but in the existing network?
Stephen Hammond
My hon. Friend is right. We have consistently made the point that we are not only investing in High Speed 2 but that we are investing £37 billion in improvements across the network. He is right to pick out that example, which illustrates exactly what the Government have been saying—that capacity is being added across the network.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
The Minister will be aware that 80% of freight in Britain goes by road, both cross-channel and within Britain, and that serious modal shift from road to rail cannot take place until the railways are capable of taking lorry trailers on trains. Will he look seriously at schemes for investing in rail freight capacity capable of taking lorries on trains?
Stephen Hammond
The hon. Gentleman is aware, of course, that there has been a huge increase of some 60% in rail freight over the past 10 years. The capacity that is being added will add the prospect and the potential for extra rail freight and extra transference from road to rail. If there are serious schemes, we will look at them, but they would have to justify the economic business case and provide better value than the capacity that we are adding, which will allow that transfer from road to rail.
Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con)
Today the new London Gateway port receives its first ship. As my hon. Friend knows, its ambition is to transport many of the materials that come into the new port by rail freight. Will he ensure that Network Rail looks carefully at the provision of level crossings across Thurrock so that our road network is not disrupted by the increased volume of freight trains using the network?
Stephen Hammond
My hon. Friend is a well-known and doughty campaigner for her constituency, which is why I have had the pleasure of visiting it several times in the past couple of years. I will of course look seriously at that and speak to Network Rail. It is essential that that new port is a success.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
7. What recent assessment he has made of the quality of bus services outside London.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)
Passenger Focus research shows that customer satisfaction with bus journeys is high—84% of passengers are satisfied with their service. The Government set out their programme for further improving bus services in “Green Light for Better Buses”, which was published in 2012. Our proposals include reforming bus subsidy, improving competition and making buses easier to use for everyone.
Alison McGovern
As we have heard a little this morning, Members could probably talk for hours about rail fares, but what about bus fares, especially those outside London? Will the Minister tell the House what has happened to bus fares outside London on his Government’s watch, and what impact the removal of the bus service operators grant had?
Mr Goodwill
Bus fares have been rising for several years above inflation, although many operators and councils across the country are working together and separately to provide good deals. The picture is variable and reflects local circumstances. We are working with the sector to see what can be achieved to make sure that buses are accessible to as many people as possible, given the social and economic importance of bus travel.
Mike Thornton (Eastleigh) (LD)
Given the major changes in the rural population over the past 100 years, which has made it increasingly difficult to provide an effective service based on the traditional mid-20th century model of rural bus services that is currently used, what research has the Department done to look at alternative 21st-century methods of providing a decent bus service in rural areas?
Mr Goodwill
I have already pointed out that in 2011 and 2012 we provided a total of £20 million in additional funding for rural areas. In some rural areas which are sparsely populated, there may be alternative solutions, such as dial-a-ride, car sharing or similar schemes, which may be more appropriate for the more remote rural areas.
Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
While the number of bus passengers falls and fares rise, this Government have stopped the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency, which checked bus operators’ punctuality, doing so properly. People need to know how reliable their buses are, as will the new local transport bodies planning their services, so why are Ministers keeping consumers clueless and local transport bodies toothless?
Mr Goodwill
Bus users are all too aware of reliability; they use services if they are reliable. It will be interesting to see how the policy in Liverpool, which is getting rid of bus priority schemes and bus lanes, will impact on the reliability of services and how much they are used.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
8. What assessment he has made of recent trends in road accident statistics.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)
The Department for Transport’s 2012 statistics show that the number of people killed in accidents reported to the police has decreased by 7.7%, from 1,901 in 2011 to 1,754 in 2012, the lowest figure on record, and today’s figures show further progress.
Rehman Chishti
I am grateful to the Minister for that answer. He will be aware that 16% of all road deaths in Britain are caused by drink-driving, and that is after a 17% increase between 2011 and 2012. What are the Government doing to improve road safety by dealing with repeat drink-drivers? He will know that that is the subject of my ten-minute rule Bill, which is listed for a Second Reading on 22 November.
Mr Goodwill
We have introduced measures to ensure that anyone disqualified for drink-driving twice in 10 years will be classed as a high-risk offender. High-risk offenders cannot get their licence back until doctors are satisfied that they are medically fit to drive again. The figures that my hon. Friend mentions are of concern, but they are against a trend of ever-reducing levels of fatality on our roads involving drink-driving.
Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)
The biggest killers of young people in the UK are road crashes. The Government have been promising a Green Paper, not a White Paper, on graduated licensing for young drivers since the spring. When are we likely to see it?
Mr Goodwill
It is absolutely true that while young people make up 8% of drivers and account for 5% of miles driven on our roads, they account for 18% of accidents. We will publish the Green Paper before the end of the year.
Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)
The big increase in deaths related to drink-driving on the roads shows that we are not winning the battle against drink-driving. Is it not simply time to show our commitment to tackling drink-driving by introducing the recommendations of the North review and reducing the drink-driving limit?
Mr Goodwill
Many countries in Europe have a lower drink-driving limit, but they also have lower penalties. I believe it would be a mistake to reduce our gold-standard penalty of disqualification for drink-driving, which could lead some people to perceive drink-driving as being on the same level as speeding or parking offences.
Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)
May I welcome the Minister to his new post? He mentioned the road casualty statistics published today. Is it not also the case that there was a 4% increase in the number of motorcyclists killed or seriously injured and a 12% increase in the number of cyclists killed or injured on our roads? The day after we heard of a further tragedy, is it not time, as we approach road safety week, for the Minister to tune into road safety himself, put the vulnerable first and introduce clear targets to cut the number of deaths and serious injuries on our roads?
Mr Goodwill
I in turn welcome the hon. Gentleman to his post and look forward to sparring with him across the Dispatch Box. There are certainly concerns about motorcycle deaths—motorcycles are particularly dangerous. We have targeted motorcyclists, in particular, in our Think! campaign. Of course, in some cases motorcycle deaths are very much related to the weather. In north Yorkshire, certainly, when we have a nice summer there are, sadly, an awful lot more motorcycle casualties. It is of concern that we are seeing more cycling casualties, and I have noted some of the accidents in London involving heavy lorries and cyclists. Some of that is due to the fact that there has been a big increase in the number of people cycling, but it is of concern and we are targeting our information campaigns on motorcyclists and cyclists.
Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)
9. What steps he is taking to improve existing railway stations and build new stations.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Stephen Hammond)
The Government have allocated some £550 million to the new Stations Improvement and Access for All programmes for the period to 2014, which have led to improvements at over 500 stations. For the next control period, from 2014 to 2019, a further £200 million has been allocated to improve stations and station access in England and Wales. The Government have also allocated £20 million through the new stations fund. Four successful proposals are now being built and a fifth is under consideration.
Stuart Andrew
I am grateful to the Minister for that answer. Will he update us on the progress being made on the new and much-needed Apperley Bridge and Kirkstall stations, which are crucial to alleviating chronic congestion in my constituency? May I also lend my support to the suggestion my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones) made about the electrification of the Harrogate to Knaresborough line, which would help commuters in the Horsforth area?
Stephen Hammond
Apperley Bridge is part of the Leeds growth package promoted by the West Yorkshire passenger transport executive, and it has received programme entry funding from the major local transport schemes budget. The Department is expecting to receive the PTE’s submission of a business case for final approval in spring 2014. I welcome my hon. Friend’s support for the electrification of the Leeds-Horsforth-Harrogate line, although Apperley Bridge is not on that line but on the already electrified Leeds-Bradford Forster Square line.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
13. In the past fortnight, East Riding of Yorkshire council has commenced a £50,000 improvement of the subways at Goole station. We want Network Rail to contribute to this improvement to make it a lot better. If I provide the Minister with details, will he help me to lobby Network Rail to get that additional funding?
Stephen Hammond
My hon. Friend will be aware that funding for almost all these schemes comes through the new local growth fund, which is being used to finance transport improvements up and down the country, but of course, if he cares to provide me with the details, I am happy to meet him to discuss them.
Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)
10. What recent assessment he has made of East Coast Main Line Ltd’s financial performance.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
My officials regularly meet representatives of East Coast Main Line and Directly Operated Railways to discuss the performance of the franchise. DOR’s financial accounts are published on its website annually. On 24 October, I announced the start of the competition for a new private sector partner for InterCity East Coast and published a prospectus for the East Coast Main Line business, which included an assessment of its financial performance.
Mrs McGuire
I thank the Secretary of State for his answer. Will he confirm that while German, Dutch and French railway companies will be allowed to tender for the new franchise, a successful British company that is currently operating the franchise will not be allowed to do so?
Mr McLoughlin
I refer the right hon. Lady back to the time when she was a supporting member of the previous Government, when the then Secretary of State said:
“I do not believe that it would be in the public interest for us to have a nationalised train operating company indefinitely…because of our recent experience on rail franchising”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 1 July 2009; Vol. 712, c. 232.]
Rail franchising has led to the biggest growth in rail usage in this country that we have ever seen—up from 750 million to 1.5 billion passenger journeys. I want that improvement to continue, and that is why huge investment is going into the east coast main line.
Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)
12. The publicly run east coast main line franchise will have returned £800 million to the taxpayer by the end of this financial year, and all its profits are reinvested in the service. Why are the coalition Government privatising this successful public operator, given that the previous two private operators failed?
Mr McLoughlin
As I pointed out to the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire), I am following the policies that have taken the rail industry from 750 million to 1.5 billion passenger journeys. I am happy to speak for the passengers and for all the people who work on the railways; it seems as though Labour Members are happy to speak just for the union barons. They can speak for the barons; I will speak for the workers, the consumers and the people who use our railways.
Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
We have started consultations on our plans to reform the Highways Agency into a Government-owned company, backed by legislation, to achieve greater efficiency as we treble our capital spending on the strategic road network. Significant efforts have been made this year across road, rail and aviation to boost resilience and preparedness for the winter months. This week, the Highways Agency began its “Make time for winter” campaign, with practical advice for drivers. Local highways authorities are holding robust salt stocks and will enter the winter with a healthy supply.
Heidi Alexander
The Government’s policy on rail fares will offer scant consolation to my constituents, who not only have to travel on unbearably overcrowded trains into central London but in the past two years have been asked to pay £100 more for their annual season ticket. What guarantee can the Secretary of State give that above-inflation increases in rail fares will be matched by a comparable increase in capacity?
Mr McLoughlin
There is a problem, but we are investing record amounts in the rail industry. Over the next five years, Network Rail will invest some £38 billion in the railway network. Those are very significant investments that are bringing on new rolling stock and better capacity and efficiency to try to help people who are suffering. I do accept, particularly where there is overcrowding, that we need to try to do more to help those consumers.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
T2. The electrification of the midland main line through Kettering is extremely welcome, but the immediate consequence for Kettering residents is the complete closure of the Pytchley Road bridge as it is changed to accommodate the new overhead wires. That means that the main access route into Kettering from the south will be completely closed for three months over the Christmas period. Will the Secretary of State ensure that Network Rail completes this job on time by the end of February 2014?
Mr McLoughlin
I well understand the concerns raised by my hon. Friend. This is one of the problems when major work is done on the railways. As he may have heard earlier, I travelled in the cab of one of those trains on Monday to see some of the work that is already ongoing in preparation for the electrification of the whole line. There will be some disruption—that is unavoidable. Nottingham station was closed for five weeks over the summer, but the whole job was done on time and it actually came in £5 million below budget.
Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)
T3. The Secretary of State will be aware that there has been significant disruption on the east coast main line because of infrastructure failure. I think we have now had three Mondays on which there has been significant disruption, and a fortnight ago 30,000 passengers were stranded, some for five or six hours, while repairs were carried out. The east coast main line was electrified on the cheap—many engineers tell us that, and there has been severe disruption. Can we do something about it, please?
Mr McLoughlin
I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point. It relates to what we are doing with HS2 to increase capacity in the longer term, although that is not the short-term answer he wants. I was disturbed to read the reports about the delays on the line, and I will talk to Network Rail to see if there is anything we can do.
Peter Luff (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)
T4. The high speed of High Speed 2 will depend on the high technology of a new generation of civil engineers, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers and many others. May I challenge a member of the ministerial Front Bench to come upstairs with me, after Question Time, to the Bloodhound supersonic car simulator to see whether they can beat the very creditable speed of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden) and learn about what the product is doing to inspire a new generation of children about the opportunities for British engineering?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)
I am delighted to accept that invitation, particularly because on Sunday I took part in the oldest motoring event in the world, driving from London to Brighton in six hours. The speed of the Bloodhound will be a great experience, I am sure.
Mr Speaker
I am sure an invitation to come upstairs beats an invitation to come outside.
Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
T7. I am basically supportive of HS2 proposals, although I am becoming increasingly concerned about the project the more I read the specific detail of regional benefits. Will the Secretary of State assure me that Liverpool will get a spur to increase capacity and ensure greater connectivity with our ports so that the whole city region can benefit?
Mr McLoughlin
I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman seems to be having second thoughts. The mayor of Liverpool is certainly not having second thoughts and is a big supporter of the project. The truth is that once the high-speed line goes to Manchester, it will then go on to Liverpool. That will be very important for Liverpool, but it will also get the benefits from phase 1. Parts of Kent that are not served by the line benefit from the capacity and the trains.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
T5. I am extremely grateful to have got here, having been stuck outside Clapham Junction station. May I seek assurances from the Department that it will work closely with major transport infrastructure such as Gatwick airport and those who operate the M23 and the London to Brighton rail line to ensure that there is winter preparedness?
Mr Goodwill
We continue to invest in third rail heating, to ensure the reliability of our rail services. Gatwick airport has the advantage over Heathrow, in that it has capacity to put snow ploughs on the runway without disrupting flights in the same way. As I said in my evidence to the Transport Committee only a week or so ago, we have good winter resilience, with more snow ploughs and more salt, and we are confident that the Highways Agency and local authorities can keep the roads clear.
Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) (Lab)
In Tyne and Wear, a consultation process is currently under way on introducing quality contracts for local bus services. Does the Minister agree that bus companies should be investing in local services rather than wasting vast sums on misleading and scaremongering attacks?
Mr Goodwill
We continue to keep the option of quality contracts open to local authorities. In the spirit of localism, it is their decision if they want to use them. I think that the better bus contract is a better model, but if local authorities want to follow the model that is used in London, they may do so.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
T6. The Secretary of State has been very kind to the East Riding in respect of pinch-point funding. I urge him to extend his kindness to the other side of the Humber and support the pinch-point funding bids from North Lincolnshire council, of which my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) and I are very supportive, and in particular the bid that relates to Humberside airport.
Mr McLoughlin
I have visited my hon. Friend’s constituency to look at one of the pinch-point schemes that has received funding and will take any representations about other schemes into account.
Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) (Lab)
Although the reduction in road accident fatalities is warmly to be welcomed, what plans does the Department have to make cycling safer, given the increase in cycling fatalities not only in London, but beyond, which has been mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden)? When will the Secretary of State encourage the creation of segregated cycle paths?
Mr McLoughlin
We all want local authority highways agencies to give greater consideration to cycling. After meeting British Cycling a few weeks ago, I instructed the Highways Agency that all the highways schemes that it comes forward with must be cycle-proofed. There are some irresponsible drivers and some irresponsible cyclists. We all have a responsibility to get the message across to everybody: “Be careful on our roads.”
Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con)
T8. How can the Secretary of State reassure the people of Bristol, who want enhanced branch lines, that having HS2 for London and the north will not mean that the south-west is left out? Will he look positively at bids to reopen the Henbury loop line in north Bristol?
Mr McLoughlin
The development of HS2 does not mean that the people of Bristol and the south-west will be left out. HS2 is part of a bigger boost to our transport system and will make up less than a quarter of the transport investment in the next Parliament. I am always interested in talking to my hon. Friends about the schemes that they are promoting in their constituencies and I am more than happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss her scheme in greater detail.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Does the Minister agree that as we approach the Christmas period, more use should be made of the media, and television in particular, to underline the zero-tolerance message on drink-driving? Will he consider running such a campaign in conjunction with all the regions of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?
Mr Goodwill
We regularly publicise the issue of drink-driving, particularly in the run-up to Christmas, and will continue to do so. I do not know whether the problem is worse in Northern Ireland than elsewhere, but I am sure that the devolved Government will push the same line as us.
Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD)
According to a report by the transport consultants, Atkins, enhancements to capacity, line speed and service quality on the great eastern main line could bring an extra £3.7 billion into the economy. Will the Minister confirm that the recommendations of the East Anglia rail prospectus, which is backed by MPs from across the region, will be progressed at the earliest possible opportunity?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Stephen Hammond)
I congratulate those who put a considerable amount of work and effort into unifying the stakeholders in East Anglia and producing that excellent document. It contains a huge number of recommendations. I will continue to engage with MPs and others to ensure that we complete the process, that their voices are heard and that we understand the benefits of the recommendations.
Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab)
The A67, which runs through my constituency between Darlington and Barnard Castle, is a major bus route. It recently suffered from a major landslip at Carlbury banks, which is severely disrupting bus services. Will a Minister meet my hon. Friends the Members for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) and for Darlington (Jenny Chapman) and me to see whether any funding can be made available from the pinch-point fund?
Mr McLoughlin
I was in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency last Friday for the start of work on the new Hitachi site, which will build new trains for the east coast and Great Western lines. I am sorry to hear about the problems that he is having with part of his highways network. We will be happy to talk to him in due course.
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
The Secretary of State will be aware that the M25, which spans my constituency from junction 23 to junction 25, has had a serious spike in fatal accidents, which included the tragic deaths of three people and two young girls during the course of one week. Will he urgently investigate the causes of those accidents, which might include the road management measures during the road expansion works, and let me know what he finds as soon as possible?
Mr McLoughlin
My hon. Friend has already written to me about this issue, and brought my attention to those appalling incidents that caused the death of those people, and the families who were affected, as well as incredible disruption to his area. I want a full investigation into whether the points he has raised had any bearings on those accidents.
Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)
1. If the Commission will establish a Members’ consultation group for the work on the restoration and renewal of the Palace of Westminster.
Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North)
I shall answer for the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso).
Last year the House of Commons Commission invited the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) and my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) to join two Members of the House of Lords as an informal consultation group for the pre-feasibility study on the restoration and renewal of the Palace of Westminster. That group is not a decision-making body; its purpose is to ensure that the programme team has a good understanding of the range of Members’ views and requirements, and that that is reflected in the final formal proposals.
Pauline Latham
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that answer. I am not sure whether he said that there are Members of the House of Commons on that advisory body, as I could not quite hear. If there are not, would it be possible to include them? I have strong opinions on this issue as, I am sure, do many other Members of the House. I would like an assurance that the House will be consulted and kept up to date on progress.
Mr Doran
There are already two Members of the House of Commons on the informal committee, and there may be a third. There are currently three Members of the House of Lords. The hon. Lady is right and it is crucial that Members are kept advised. That will be done through the normal channels, and all relevant committees will be advised. If she is interested—I know her commitment to this issue—and would like to meet the project manager, that would be perfectly possible.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
What is the latest estimate for the cost of restoring and renewing the Palace of Westminster? If the cheapest and quickest option is to close the place down and do it in one go, is that a route the hon. Gentleman would be kind enough to advance?
Mr Doran
I am sorry I did not catch the question, but no decisions have been made except to appoint advisers and consultants who will advise on the options. Those options will be considered in the next Parliament, and the final decision will be taken by both Houses. There will be an immense amount of consultation and, of course, interest from Members of both Houses.
Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)
2. What recent assessment he has made of the performance of each Government Department in answering written parliamentary questions.
The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley)
My office collates departmental performance information for ordinary and named day parliamentary questions, which I submit for each Session to the Procedure Committee. I provided data on the last Session to that Committee in July, and those are available on the parliamentary website.
Mr Lansley
The hon. Lady will be aware from information on the parliamentary website of the relative position of Departments, including the Department for Education. The Procedure Committee held evidence-taking sessions with the Secretary of State and the permanent secretary, and the Chair of the Procedure Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), has written to that Department. The context of that correspondence was that performance was poor but had improved in recent weeks. I stress that over the past Session, more Departments have increased their performance in responding to written questions than have deteriorated. It was possible, however, for the Department with the largest number of such questions—the Department of Health—to achieve a 99% response rate.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
3. What his policy is on extending pre-legislative scrutiny of Bills.
The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom Brake)
The Government are committed, wherever possible, to publishing draft legislation for pre-legislative scrutiny. We published 17 draft Bills or sets of draft measures in the last Session, which is more than any other Government in any Session.
Chi Onwurah
Following last week’s announcement of a pause in proceedings on the reviled gagging Bill and the previous pause in the equally reviled Health and Social Care Bill, can the Leader of the House confirm whether this form of legislative coitus interruptus is becoming his preferred form of parliamentary planned parenthood?
Tom Brake
Clearly it is not. As I have stated, we have a very good track record with the largest number of Bills in pre-legislative scrutiny of any Government in any Session. In relation to what has happened in the Lords, they wanted more time and that is exactly what the Government have provided.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that pre-legislative scrutiny allows consultation while legislation is more easily amended, and allows politicians and stakeholders to give their opinions? Will he commend the work of the pre-legislative scrutiny Committee, a joint Committee with the House of Lords, on the Deregulation Bill, which I have the honour to serve on?
Tom Brake
I will certainly do that. Pre-legislative scrutiny is a very positive opportunity for stakeholders to contribute. As I stated, the Government have been very positive in providing those opportunities to a large number of stakeholders in no fewer than 17 draft Bills.
Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
In the light of the completely unconvincing answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) by the Deputy Leader of the House, will he explain exactly how he plans to make use of this wonderful new parliamentary invention, the pause stage, to respond to widespread concerns about the lack of pre-legislative scrutiny of the provisions in the gagging Bill?
Tom Brake
I am not quite sure what the hon. Lady means by “the gagging Bill”. If she is referring to the transparency Bill, she will be aware that the lobbying aspect did have pre-legislative scrutiny, and she should be aware that the Government have responded, for instance, to Select Committee reports on this subject and engaged with a very large number of organisations that have a strong interest in this Bill.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
4. What assessment he has made of options for the reform of Private Members’ Bill procedure.
The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom Brake)
The Government are considering the recommendations contained in the report published by the Procedure Committee on 2 September and will respond shortly.
Charlie Elphicke
Will the Deputy Leader of the House join me in congratulating the Procedure Committee on an excellent report and consider implementing its recommendations for the timetabling of private Members’ Bills so that Back Benchers voices will be properly heard in this place?
Tom Brake
I congratulate my hon. Friend on pursuing these matters as vigorously as he does in relation to private Members’ Bills. I am afraid that I am not in a position today to tell him that the Government have responded, but I can tell him that we will respond very shortly to the Procedure Committee’s report, and indeed it contains some sound and strong recommendations that I am sure we will want to consider carefully.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
Is it not the case that if 100 MPs turn up for a closure motion on a Friday they can ensure the progress of any Bill, which is not a great number out of 650 if it has such widespread support? Hon. Members should not expect to turn up with some well-meaning claptrap and expect it to be nodded through just because it is a Friday.
Tom Brake
Yes, my hon. Friend is right that the use of a closure motion and, indeed, timetabling is possible for private Members’ Bills, but it is also worth pointing out that the Procedure Committee has said in its report that it is not its intention to facilitate the passage of Bills into law, and that it should not be easy to see a private Member’s Bill become law.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Does the Deputy Leader of the House agree that regardless of the procedures used to deal with private Members’ Bills, such a Bill is extremely unlikely to reach the statute book unless it has the express or at least tacit approval of the Government?
Tom Brake
I can assure my hon. Friend that there have been examples in the past—my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House secured a private Member’s Bill in opposition—so there are opportunities even for Opposition Members to push private Members’ Bills through, although clearly having the support of the Government is helpful.
Mr David Crausby (Bolton North East) (Lab)
5. When the Government plan to respond to the e-petition created by the hon. Member for Bolton North East on grass-roots football.
The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom Brake)
The delay in response to the hon. Gentleman’s query was unacceptable, as has been acknowledged. However, I can confirm that a response has now been published on the Government e-petitions site. Petitions that reach the 10,000 signature threshold should receive a response from the Government within 30 days.
Mr Crausby
I did indeed receive a response to my petition just after midnight on Tuesday morning, within hours of this oral question being published—two facts that I am sure are not remotely connected.
On a serious point, given the billions of pounds available from football on television, will the Government put pressure on the Football Association to spend more of that money on grass-roots football, especially for children, as opposed to even more outrageous wages for top professional footballers?
Tom Brake
I am not sure that that is a question for a Deputy Leader of the House, but I will ensure that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport is aware of the hon. Gentleman’s concern. I would certainly echo his suggestion, however, that we need strong investment in grass-roots football. He might be aware that the Premier League will be investing about £168 million in grass-roots football over the next three years, which is something that hon. Members on both sides of the House would want to encourage it to do.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
6. If he will make a comparative assessment of the service provided by (a) Nexis news service currently in use in the House of Commons and (b) Factiva news service; and if he will make a statement.
Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North)
The Nexis and Factiva services, along with the online news services offered by the bidders, were assessed as part of the open procurement process carried out in 2011. The position will be reassessed in 2015, when a decision will be required on whether to extend the current contract for a further two years or retender the service
Michael Fabricant
We really do need to have this issue reconsidered. When we changed from the Factiva to the Nexis service, we found that some newspapers were being reported on three days late and that we were not getting any reports from, among other newspapers, The Sun, The Times or The Sunday Times, whereas Factiva was comprehensive in its coverage. The House of Commons and the taxpayer could save money by dumping Nexis now because it provides an inadequate service for Members of Parliament. Please let us have Factiva back. At least it works.
Mr Doran
In the current economic climate, we have to look for value for money, and when the contract was tended, the difference between the bids, which was substantial, amounted to a £500,000 saving over the life of the contract. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, however; there is a real issue with News International newspapers not being available on the service, although the Library continues to negotiate with News International. He will also be aware that some members of the Library have individual subscriptions, and these can be accessed.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
7. If the Commission will take steps to enable hon. Members to receive in their Commons offices live regional BBC and other regional television news programmes covering constituencies outside London and the south-east in place of Sky Sports channels.
Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
My hon. Friend has been dogged in her efforts to get her local BBC news shown here, and I am delighted to tell her that work to expand and modernise the Annunciator service is currently under way with the intention of switching to a digital service, following the national digital switchover, to ensure compatibility with television services such as subtitles. The upgrade will also provide the opportunity to develop the service, and it is proposed that the channels available be expanded to include all regional BBC 1 channels, whose broadcasts include regional news programmes, and some key international channels.
Diana Johnson
At the moment, our constituents have to pay £50 a month to get Sky Sports beamed into their own homes, otherwise they have to go down the pub, so I am not sure why we have it beamed into all our offices on the parliamentary estate. I am pleased that we are finally dealing with the need of MPs with constituencies outside London and the south-east to have access to our regional TV news programmes, but when will this actually happen?
Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)
8. What recent guidance he has given to his ministerial colleagues on making statements in the House before making such statements in the media.
The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley)
The ministerial code is clear that when Parliament is in session the most important announcements of Government policy should be made first to Parliament. I regularly remind my colleagues of this.
Heidi Alexander
Will the Leader of the House give me his word that the autumn statement will not be leaked to the media in advance, as happened with the Budget this year?
Mr Lansley
The House will recall the inquiry that took place into the pre-announcement or pre-leaking of material relating to the Budget and will recall equally the assurances that the Chancellor and I gave at this Dispatch Box that that would not happen in future.
Petition
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)
I am presenting a petition of 1,298 signatures from the Bridgwater and West Somerset constituency.
The petition states:
The Petition of residents of Puriton, Somerset,
Declares that the Petitioners believe that the proposed redevelopment of the old Royal Ordnance Factory site is unacceptable on grounds of air pollution, noise, village access, visual impact and the overall character of the development.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons take note of the plans in advance of consideration by the local planning authority.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P001275]
Speaker’s Statement
Mr Speaker
I remind the House that Monday is 11 November, Armistice day. Although the House is not sitting in the morning, many of us will be on the estate, performing our parliamentary duties. At 11 o’clock on Monday, I regard it as appropriate that we and staff working for us should join the nation in observing the two-minute silence so that we might remember those who gave their lives for their country to help preserve our democratic freedoms. Instructions will be issued to heads of House Departments so that those members of staff who wish to observe the two minute silence may do so.
Business of the House
(11 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
Will the Leader of the House please give us the business for next week?
The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley)
The business for next week will be:
Monday 11 November—Second Reading of the Offender Rehabilitation Bill [Lords], followed by a debate on a reasoned opinion relating to the regulation of new psychoactive substances.
Tuesday 12 November—Opposition day [11th allotted day]. There will be a full day’s debate entitled “Abolition of the Bedroom Tax”. The debate will arise on an Opposition motion.
I would like to remind colleagues that this year Parliament week will run from 15 to 21 November. The week will launch with the annual sitting in this Chamber of the UK Youth Parliament on Friday 15 November.
The business for the week commencing 18 November will be:
Monday 18 November—Remaining stages of the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, followed by a motion to approve a carry-over extension on the Energy Bill, followed by a general debate on police procedures in dealing with mental health issues. The subject for this debate was determined by the Backbench Business Committee.
Tuesday 19 November—Opposition day [12th allotted day]. There will be a debate on an Opposition motion, subject to be announced.
Wednesday 20 November—Remaining stages of the Defence Reform Bill.
Thursday 21 November—A debate on a motion relating to the finances of the House of Commons, followed by a debate on a motion relating to the implementation of new legislation on stalking. The subjects for both debates were determined by the Backbench Business Committee.
Friday 22 November—Private Members’ Bills.
I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 21 November, 5 and 12 December will be:
Thursday 21 November—Debate on the first report of the Committees on Arms Export Controls on the scrutiny of arms exports and arms control.
Thursday 5 December—Debate on the second report of the Education Select Committee on the role of school governing bodies, followed by a debate on the third report of the Education Select Committee on school sport following London 2012.
Thursday 12 December—Debate on the first report of the International Development Select Committee on global food security, followed by a debate on the second report of the International Development Select Committee on violence against women and girls.
Ms Eagle
I thank the Leader of the House for announcing next week’s business. I am looking forward to attending the sitting of the Youth Parliament next week. May I take this opportunity to remember the sacrifice of our armed forces as we approach Remembrance Sunday? We all wear our poppies with pride.
This morning, the Public Accounts Committee has published a devastating report on the Government’s flagship benefit reform, citing a shocking failure to manage it and predicting that the Department for Work and Pensions will have to write off a substantial part of the £425 million it has already spent. It seems that the blame game for this costly fiasco has already started. This morning we learn of a wholly improper attempt to lean on members of an independent Select Committee of this House by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and his parliamentary team to try to put the blame on the permanent secretary. Can we have an urgent statement from the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions about these very serious allegations?
While the majority face a cost of living crisis, it has been reported in the Daily Mirror today that the Prime Minister has cut his own household bills by nearly £400 a year while refusing to support our motion yesterday for an energy price freeze for everyone else. That tells us everything about who he is standing up for. Will the Leader of the House now confirm how much less the Prime Minister is paying on his home as a result of the top-rate tax cut?
In evidence to the Health Select Committee, the chief executive of NHS England said that the NHS was becoming
“bogged down in a morass of competition law”,
following the Government’s botched, £3 billion top-down reorganisation. Given that the Leader of the House had his fingerprints all over that one, does he agree with that analysis?
The Leader of the House must also have felt a sense of déjà vu as he was forced into a humiliating climb-down on the Transparency of Lobbying, Non-party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill in the Lords this week. Perhaps he is trying to patent a new way of doing Bills. First Reading—outcry; Second Reading—lose the argument but stubbornly refuse to listen; go to the Lords—hit the emergency pause button and say that he will do all the things he should have done before he published the Bill in the first place. This is just like what happened on the Health and Social Care Bill. Everyone who will be affected by the lobbying Bill opposes it. Just like on the health Bill, he cannot make the case for his proposals because there is no case for them; and just like on the health Bill, he is disguising his true intentions because he knows he has no public support. Will the Leader of the House tell us how he intends to use the next six weeks to “listen, pause and reflect” on the lobbying Bill, and will he commit now to making the substantial changes that this sinister gagging Bill needs? Better still, why does he not just scrap it and start again?
We all know that the Prime Minister does not seem to like answering questions from the Opposition very much during his Wednesday outings. Yesterday, he told three of my hon. Friends that he did not have the answers to hand. He did not know the total number of people in the country on zero-hours contacts; he did not know how many of his so-called new private sector jobs involved zero-hours contracts; and he decided that the appropriate way to respond to a question about the rights of pregnant women not to be sacked was to have a cheap shot at trade union general secretaries. Is it not time we renamed Prime Minister’s questions “I’m sorry I haven’t a clue”?
This week, the Government were forced by the courts to keep the independent living fund up and running, and they lost yet another vote in the other place on the Energy Bill, despite stuffing the Chamber with their friends. They have also now lost two terror suspects: one escaped in a black cab, the other dressed as a woman. And on Monday, the Communities Secretary welcomed a report that called for sheep and cows to replace council lawnmowers. I know that I call this Government Orwellian, but I was not suggesting a production of “Animal Farm”.
Last week, we discovered that there had been a 50% rise in the number of special advisers, despite the coalition agreement promising to cut them. We also discovered that the Deputy Prime Minister had 19 special advisers, costing over £1 million a year. This week, despite the uproar, the Deputy Prime Minister decided that the best thing to do was to hire another one, to do his PR. We have had the famous five, and we have had the magnificent seven. Even the Messiah only had 12! What on earth does the Deputy Prime Minister need 20 for? Does the Leader of the House agree that the Deputy Prime Minister is not the Messiah—he’s a very naughty boy?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House, and I join her in remembering the fallen, as will Members right across the House, both here and in our constituencies on Sunday. Many families will remember not only those who fell but those who have served this country, including those who made the ultimate sacrifice.
The shadow Leader of the House made a point about universal credit. The Public Accounts Committee report deals with historical matters, and my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Department for Work and Pensions have already taken steps to secure the safe and sound delivery of the programme on time and on budget. She also referred to certain reports, which I have seen. I have talked to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and I can tell the House that there is no need for a statement. I can tell her and the House that there is no truth—[Interruption.] I can tell the House now that there is no truth in the allegations about talking to members of the Public Accounts Committee. I talked to the Secretary of State and I can tell the House that.
I spoke to my good friend, the chief executive of NHS England, on the Committee corridor. As for
“a morass of competition law”,
I do not think that is true. We do not share the same view. As it happens, the Health and Social Care Act 2012 did not change the structure of competition law as it applies to the NHS, except in so far as it introduced a concurrent jurisdiction for Monitor, a health-related body, to exercise, as opposed to competition authorities doing so directly. The Health and Social Care Act has enabled us to deliver £5.5 billion-worth of savings in administration costs in this Parliament and to support the NHS in delivering, for example, 23,000 fewer administrators and 4,000 more clinicians.
On the transparency Bill, no pause is taking place—[Interruption.] I am telling Opposition Members what is happening. The order of consideration in the House of Lords is quite understandable, given that peers wanted the opportunity to consider in detail issues relating to part 2—part 1 and part 3 will be considered first, and part 2 will be considered later in December. That is perfectly sensible. We will engage fully. My noble Friend signalled an amendment in the House of Lords that relates to the structure of the registration thresholds. We will look at what is being proposed—if changes are proposed to part 2, we will look at them—but in the context of delivering through the transparency Bill, what we should all agree on, and this House agreed in principle, is that when third parties seek to influence the political system, whether it be through lobbying or through campaigning at election time, or when the trade unions are seeking to exert influence, it should be subject to proper transparency and accountability. Nobody is being gagged, but the transparency must be there. We must see how third parties influence the political system.
I did not draw up a complete list of all the points that the shadow Leader of the House raised—[Interruption.] The Deputy Leader of the House is quite right—I am not sure whether I should respond to jokes rather than to questions. In that context, the only other question was about zero-hours contracts—
Mr Lansley
Oh, yes—the special advisers. I think it is the same answer as last week. The coalition gives rise to particular requirements, and it is perfectly understandable that when two parties are in coalition there is a need for sources of independent advice for the Deputy Prime Minister. That is understandable and it will continue to be the case.
Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)
I am sure that the Leader of the House will have noticed the magnificent display in Parliament square of the flags of the British overseas territories and, indeed, of the Crown dependencies. Will he invite the Foreign Secretary to make a statement on an unusually helpful comment in and answer by the EU Commissioner, Michel Barnier, about the tax and financial status of Gibraltar, in which he confirmed that there were
“no ‘well founded’ complaints alleging Gibraltar’s failure to cooperate on tax, financial and money-laundering matters”?
Does my right hon. Friend agree that that completely debunks the propaganda put out by the Government of Spain?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend makes a good point, and I have indeed seen those flags displayed; it is good to see them. I completely agree with my hon. Friend about the character of the complaints made about Gibraltar by the Spanish Government, and the Commissioner rightly made an important point about that. Earlier this week, my right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe made a written statement about Gibraltar in general. In the context of working with overseas territories, the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a written ministerial statement—a welcome one—about our taxation arrangements with the Cayman Islands. That is demonstration of how we are working more positively than ever before with the British overseas territories to secure an exchange of information in respect of, and action on, tax evasion and avoidance.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Later today the Intelligence and Security Committee will hold its first public session, at which the heads of the various security agencies will speak. I welcome that, because, along with others, I have advocated such a meeting for some considerable time, but no notice of it is given on today’s Order Paper. I do not blame the Clerks, because I am sure that there are parliamentary reasons for the fact that the meeting is not listed, but will it be possible for notices to be posted around the building informing people that it will take place at—I understand—2 pm, and can the Leader of the House confirm that, although it has been suggested that tickets should be obtained beforehand, there will be no restriction on Members’ attendance?
Mr Lansley
The Order Paper does not convey the information because the Intelligence and Security Committee, although under statute a Select Committee of Parliament as designated in the Act that we passed during the last Session, is not analogous with other Select Committees of the House. There are ways in which it differs from them.
Mr Lansley
The statute says that it is a Select Committee of Parliament, but it is not analogous with parliamentary Select Committees. I understand that, Mr Speaker, and you understand it, but the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) does not understand it.
I must confess that I am not aware of the arrangements relating to the attendance of Members of Parliament at meetings of the Intelligence and Security Committee. They are a matter for the House authorities, and no doubt you, Mr Speaker, will advise the House further if necessary.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
Has my right hon. Friend noted the reports of the Justice, Home Affairs and European Scrutiny Committees on the European justice and home affairs opt-ins? Is he aware that all three reports call for a debate to be held so that the Government’s hand can be strengthened in negotiations by the House having expressed its views?
Mr Lansley
Let me take this opportunity to congratulate my right hon. Friend personally on his 40 years in the House.
I have indeed seen those reports, and, as my right hon. Friend will know, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has made clear our intention to enable the House to consider what the Government have proposed in relation to the opt-out and the measures in respect of which we think that it may be appropriate to opt back in, and to express its view.
Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)
The allegation in The Times that the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has been smearing a civil servant is a serious one. May we have a statement tomorrow—or a resignation?
Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con)
May we have a debate about morality in the tax system, with particular reference to section 58 of the Finance Act 2008? Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is trying to collect tax retrospectively from some 2,200 people, including constituents of mine. Some of them will have to sell their homes. We really need to debate this issue and reconsider it.
Mr Lansley
If I may, I will ask Ministers in the Treasury to respond directly to my hon. Friend, although he will know that the subject was discussed during consideration of the Finance Act. We are careful to ensure that the instances in which legislation has a retrospective effect are minimised, and that when it does occur, it is subject to specific advice from the Law Officers about its appropriateness.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
It is truly shocking if there is any truth in the allegation in today’s edition of The Times that the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, or others associated with him or working for him, tried to influence the report of an independent Committee of the House. It is also of concern that, when one of the Committee members was asked to deny that he had been approached, he refused to comment. It really would be right and proper for the Secretary of State to come here and explain himself, so that we can ask him questions on behalf of the House.
Mr Lansley
Opposition Members seem to have arrived in the Chamber expecting to be able to make points without listening to the answers that I have given previously. I have had a conversation with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, and there is no truth in the allegations.
Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
May we have an early debate on local government finance? That would enable Members to reflect on the fact that, given that both sides of the House now accept the public spending limits until 2016-17, even if there is a change of Government at the next general election, there will be no more money for local government and, difficult though it may be, all local authorities are going to have to live within the funds allocated to them?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend makes a good point. When we came into government there was no money, as a message from the then departing Chief Secretary stated. We are trying to escape from the mess we inherited from the Labour party. In part, that depends on every bit of the public sector doing its bit. Local government has undeniably had to contribute substantially to the reduction in the deficit. It continues to do so, and does so very well as local authorities are achieving more for less and are delivering public satisfaction with many local government services, notwithstanding the substantial reductions. The Government are giving support to enable councils to address some areas of greatest need, such as supporting them in freezing their council tax. That is relieving the pressure on hard-working families. We are also supporting local government directly through the work that the NHS is going to do on joint funding for social care; £3.8 billion in additional support was announced in the latest spending round. Full details on the local government finance settlement will be published in due course, but we have made encouraging progress.
Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)
May we have a debate on the imminent reintroduction of the skip tax by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, which will lead to a 2,700% increase in the cost of emptying a skip? It will lead to an increase to customers of £175 for hiring a skip, and it will force 1,500 small businesses into bankruptcy, including Mr and Mrs Tapping of Reliable Skips in my constituency. If construction and small businesses are to be the drivers of growth, how can the skip tax be right?
Mr Lansley
If I may, I will not comment in detail on that, but I will ask my hon. Friends at the Treasury to respond to the point that the hon. Lady makes.
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
As a Conservative member of the Public Accounts Committee, may I begin by making it clear to Opposition Members that no pressure was exerted on any Members in respect of universal credit?
May we have a debate on technical and vocational education in Peterborough? The number of NEETs—those not in education, employment or training—is falling, the number of apprenticeships is rising and youth unemployment is dropping, but we need to drive up skills. Serendipitously, this week a very strong bid for a university technical college in Peterborough comes before Ministers. Will the Leader of the House nudge them in the right direction?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, including for his confirmation of the point I have repeatedly made now at these questions to Labour Members, who do not appear to be able to understand when they are being told a simple fact.
I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s reference to a UTC. We have a UTC being developed in relation to skills to support the life sciences industry in Cambridge. The possibility of a UTC in Peterborough is an interesting and important opportunity. The UTCs will help us ensure that young people have the training to support economic growth in the future. In terms of the applications, I expect my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education to announce the successful projects in January.
Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab)
On Tuesday, regulations will take effect that allow the outsourcing of provision for children in care to private companies, despite a striking lack of evidence that it is good for children. The regulations also allow for a clear conflict of interest to arise, because the same private company will be allowed to place a child into care and run that placement. This is, frankly, a disaster waiting to happen. Does the Leader of the House agree that the fact that there has been virtually no scrutiny of this measure—the Government tried to push it through under a legislative reform order before they were stopped—is an extraordinary breach of our responsibility as corporate parents to these children? Given that he is so fond of pausing legislation, will he pause these regulations so we can have an urgent debate in this House about this very important matter?
Mr Lansley
I am not sure that I heard a request for a debate as such, but I will ask the relevant Minister at the Department for Education to respond to those issues. As the hon. Lady says, the state’s responsibility as a corporate parent to children has often not been discharged as well as it ought to have been. Clearly it is important that we improve the quality of the placements that we achieve for looked-after children. The Children and Families Bill made good progress through this House, when it was the subject of extensive scrutiny, and it continues to be the subject of scrutiny in the other place, with more than six days in Committee, so that gives real opportunities for the matter to be considered.
Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con)
Next week marks national export week. Many businesses in Erewash are successfully exporting their products and services around the globe, so may I ask my right hon. Friend to make time available in the House over the next few weeks in which we can support this important area of UK business?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that point. I think that everyone in the House will recognise that we have made good progress on support. Indeed, when I was talking to a company in my constituency just last week, it described the excellent support it has received in China from UK Trade & Investment. We have had great success in increasing our exports to China, India and Brazil—some of the emerging economies —but we all recognise that we need to do more. We have some great businesses, but if we were to secure an increase in the proportion of businesses, especially small businesses, that export to some of our competitors, such as Germany, it would do an enormous amount to boost our long-term recovery.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
I do not know whether the Leader of the House was able to listen to today’s “Thought for the Day” by Rev. Lucy Winkett, who spoke movingly about this week’s events in the campaign for a living wage. The fact is that a living wage is very important, especially to people living in my constituency and in London. Those working in this House need a decent level of wage in order to have a reasonable life. May we have an early debate on the work of the House of Commons Commission so that we can sort out that this place should be a beacon for good employment?
Mr Lansley
The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the view expressed by the Prime Minister at this Dispatch Box, and by the Mayor of London and others, about the desirability of supporting a living wage. So far as I am aware—I did discuss this with the Clerk of the House—the staff employed in this House are all in receipt of at least the London living wage.
Mr Speaker
Order. People who work in the House of Commons are indeed paid the living wage. The right hon. Gentleman, the Leader of the House, is factually—[Interruption.] Order. The Leader of the House is correct in what he said. That is the beginning and the end of it.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
I am sure that the whole House was shocked by the death of the young girl who was attacked by her dog earlier this week—our thoughts must be with her family. Will the Leader of the House arrange for an urgent review of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, because if its provisions on dangerous dogs go through, the mother of that young girl would face up to 14 years in prison, which would be a ridiculous unintended consequence of the legislation? Will he ensure that the Bill at least involves provision on intent, or that it is changed in other ways, to ensure that the mother of that young girl, who is going through enough trauma at the moment, does not face a ridiculously long prison sentence?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend is right to refer to the great distress and shock that people have felt as a result of those events. Many people have called for the provisions in the Bill relating to harm caused by dangerous dogs on private premises for a long time. They have been debated in this House, but the Bill continues to be considered, so I know that Members of both Houses will consider the points he makes and the application of the Bill in any individual circumstances.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
Serious accusations were made in this morning’s edition of The Times that the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions tried not only to nobble a Select Committee, but to smear a civil servant. The Leader of the House has just told the House that he has spoken to the Secretary of State, so will he tell us what the Secretary of State said in response to the accusations? Would not the best way of clearing things up be for the Secretary of State to come to the House and make a statement?
Mr Lansley
I have told the House that there is no truth in those allegations, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson), a member of the Public Accounts Committee, who entirely endorsed the point that I made.
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
Although I welcome the Government’s plans to build a new nuclear power station at Hinkley Point C, Babcock, which is responsible for refitting and refurbishing our nuclear submarines at Devonport dockyard in my constituency, faces a challenge in retaining skilled nuclear engineers. May we have a statement, or perhaps a debate, on how we might avoid such skill shortages?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question. When I was a member of the Select Committee on Trade and Industry some 10 years ago, we were concerned about the loss of skills and expertise in this country because of the failure to proceed with any new nuclear build. I am afraid that remedying the situation has taken until now, following the coalition Government’s steps. My hon. Friend rightly makes a wider point about the availability of skills. The sector skills organisations and, in some locations, the local enterprise partnerships will be able to work with industry to focus on enabling Government support to go directly to meet those needs.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
Even those who are not particular fans of football might have seen the horrific pictures last Sunday of the Spurs goalkeeper, Hugo Lloris, being concussed on the pitch, but being forced to go back on and play. May we have an urgent debate as soon as possible on the dangers of concussion in sport so that we can provide a lead? A conference in Twickenham this afternoon is considering the subject in the context of rugby and The Mail on Sunday is running a big campaign. There is clear evidence that when people are forced to play again after being concussed, they can all too easily end up suffering from premature dementia.
Mr Lansley
I confess that I did not see that, but the hon. Gentleman makes an important point very clearly. I am not sure whether I can promise Government time for a debate, but if he is in conversation with colleagues across the House who, quite rightly, share his concern, they could seek an Adjournment debate or Back-Bench time, perhaps in Westminster Hall, to allow those important issues to be raised.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
My late and courageous constituent, Private John Brackpool of the Welsh Guards, was killed while on active duty in Afghanistan in July 2009. I understand that the Australian military offers visits to the place where loved ones fell in Afghanistan, and I would be grateful for a statement from the Defence Secretary on whether the Ministry of Defence could offer a similar scheme for British families.
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question. The Ministry of Defence is committed to giving the families of service personnel all the support it can, especially when they tragically lose a loved one on operations. The most recent loss of a soldier from 3rd Battalion The Mercian Regiment provides us with a painful reminder of the sacrifices our armed services personnel make. The Ministry of Defence is sensitive to requests from families who wish to visit the place where their sons and daughters have died while on operation in Afghanistan. However, its overriding responsibility is one of safety, both for those visiting and for our service personnel. Afghanistan, as the House will know, remains a dangerous environment, and the Ministry of Defence has a responsibility to ensure that those who are escorted are not exposed to unnecessary risk, and that doing that does not expose service personnel to additional risk.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
The House’s Select Committee system has proven itself time and again to be a cornerstone of our democracy. Given today’s serious allegations in The Times that some of its impartiality and independence might have been compromised, why will the Leader of the House not allow the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to come to the House and tell Members and the public what he has told the Leader of the House, and to reassure us that that independence will be defended at all costs?
Mr Lansley
I have informed the House of the situation, so the premise of the hon. Gentleman’s question is not justified. I have no reason to believe that the independence of the Public Accounts Committee has been compromised in any way.
Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)
I was unable to be in the Chamber for Transport questions this morning but, if I had been, I would have asked for a debate about extending the cycle routes that the Secretary of State has announced through the national parks and joining them up so that more people can use them, especially if the routes go through a world heritage site. That would bring tourism into my constituency and enable cyclists to commute into Derby on safe routes.
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend makes an interesting point that I suspect my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport will be familiar with and sympathetic to, given his constituency interest. I will draw the further point relating to transport to his attention, and he might like to respond to my hon. Friend.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
May we have a statement about what is happening with the Chilcot inquiry? It seems like an age since it was established and took its evidence, and we learn today that there has been a further blockage in obtaining correspondence between Tony Blair and George Bush from the Cabinet Secretary. Surely the Chilcot inquiry should get everything that it requires so that we can get to the bottom of why we went into that disastrous illegal war?
Mr Lansley
I regret that I am not in a position to comment about that. I have read about this in the newspapers, but that is literally all I know about whether information is being sought by the Chilcot inquiry. I will talk to my colleagues and see whether we can update the House on the timetable although, as the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, it is not in the hands of the Government as such.
Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD)
May we have a debate on geography? As I sat through Transport questions, I heard about wonderful investments in the north, the midlands and across the country, but I did not hear one word about anything west of Swindon or south of Bristol. There is a real fear that the Department for Transport does not know where the west country is. If the Secretary of State wants to assure me that he does, he can announce improvements on the A303, the electrification of the Great Western line and the re-opening of Langport and Somerton stations, and then I will be satisfied.
Mr Lansley
I did hear the Secretary of State respond to a question about Bristol, but not beyond Bristol. I am entirely familiar with the geography of the south-west, having lived in Exeter for four years. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State referred to the rail investment programme, which is not just HS2—as he said, HS2 represents just a quarter of the investment during the next Parliament. Many projects in the programme were never proceeded with under the previous Government, but will have a positive impact on many parts of the country. If there is anything in particular that my colleagues can say to my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) about this matter, I will ask them to do so.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
It has always struck me that the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is an honourable man so, notwithstanding the assurances given by the Leader of the House, I would have thought that he would want to come to the House and deal with these matters directly.
Mr Lansley
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is indeed an honourable man and a man of integrity. I am happy to confirm to the House that the allegations are not true and there is no reason for him to come to make a statement. We make statements to the House to update it on something that has happened, not something that has not happened.
Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Ind)
On 25 October I received a parliamentary answer informing me that, out of 2,533 railway stations, only 452 had disabled access to all platforms. That is clearly inadequate in the 21st century, so would it be possible for a Minister to make a statement on when that inadequacy will be rectified, placing particular emphasis on rural areas?
Mr Lansley
There are stations in my constituency where it is difficult for people with disabilities to access all platforms to change trains, so my hon. Friend makes a good point. I will ask my colleagues at the Department for Transport to write to him as he has just missed the opportunity to raise that point during Question Time.
Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
I can remember at least two occasions since I have been in the House when improper conduct—within and externally—in relation to Select Committees has been the subject of inquiries called for by the Leader of the House’s party. Why is he being inconsistent now? Can he not simply accept that it undermines the credibility of Select Committees for him to act as a shield for the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions?
Mr Lansley
I am sorry, but Opposition Members are persisting with a complete misapprehension. There is no basis for their questions; there is no need for any further statement. I have made it clear that the independence and credibility of the Public Accounts Committee is not compromised.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Given that, during the course of the Electoral Commission’s research into the excellent private Member’s Bill promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton), which provides for holding a referendum on the UK’s membership of the European Union, the commission discovered that some people apparently do not even know that we are members of the EU, may we please have a debate on the effectiveness of our education system?
Mr Lansley
There are two things that I would say to my hon. Friend, who makes a good point. First, the national curriculum review has revised programmes of study to ensure that teaching is directed towards a core knowledge of citizenship, including how our society is governed. That, we hope, will help young people in the future. Secondly, and perhaps more immediately and practically, the passage of legislation that ensures that the people of this country have a referendum on our membership of the European Union will educate everybody about the character of our membership of the European Union—and, I might say, about its benefits.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
Yesterday was the 10th anniversary of the Work and Pensions Secretary’s departure as leader of the Tory party. To commemorate that, may we have an urgent statement by him about the allegations repeated in The Times of pressure being applied to a parliamentary Committee of this House, and about whether this again is a resigning matter for the Secretary of State?
Mr Lansley
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply I gave some moments ago—and the one before that, the one before that, and the one before that.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
Has the Leader of the House seen today’s report from WRAP—the Waste and Resources Action Programme—showing that although domestic food waste has been cut by 21% since 2007, the average household still throws away the equivalent of six meals every week? May we have a debate to consider how such waste might be further reduced, and to look in particular at how the effective use of packaging could affect that?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the issue, and the report from WRAP is extremely helpful. Clearly progress has been made, but a lot more progress is possible. I am glad that Tesco, for example, recently illustrated rather powerfully the extent of food waste. The more we can reduce food waste, the more we can improve our situation in so many respects, including by reducing the amount of unnecessary packaging, by making sure that we can balance more effectively the growing and supply of food with demand for food and, hopefully, by also reducing the cost of food.
Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)
As chair of the all-party kidney group, I recently heard distressing evidence from kidney dialysis patients of their difficulties in living a full family life because of their inability both to find and to fund DAFB—dialysis away from base? May we have a debate on a statutory requirement to make available vacancies in dialysis units so that dialysis patients can go on holiday, attend weddings or visit their grandchildren, with the funding going with them to finance their treatment?
Mr Lansley
The hon. Lady might wish to seek an Adjournment debate or, perhaps with colleagues, time from the Backbench Business Committee to discuss that important issue. I imagine that kidney patients would find that very valuable. I recall that, when I was Secretary of State for Health, I was aware of the relative lack of access to dialysis here compared with in other countries. The previous Government made some progress on that and we have added to that progress since. I recall visiting dialysis units, such as in Brighton, that expressly set out to provide sufficient capacity for those working away from home and those on holiday.
Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con)
Last year Warwick’s High street and Jury street were closed for 17 weeks for roadworks, causing significant disruption for local businesses and residents alike. Warwickshire county council now proposes closing the roads again in January, partly as a consequence of the failure of the previous roadworks. May we have a debate on how we can build better communications between local authorities and businesses so that local infrastructure projects are undertaken in a way that is sensitive to the needs of the local economy?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend does good work to raise his constituents’ concerns. Obviously that is not a matter for the Government directly, but I understand that the works proposed for January are to install a pedestrian crossing on Warwick’s High street, although no decision will be made by the council until 22 November, when the portfolio holder concerned is expected to make a final decision on whether the works will proceed. That is a matter for the local highways authority, Warwickshire county council. I know that my hon. Friend will have raised it with the council and will continue to do so, but raising it here today might help its considerations.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
The Government have been celebrating a huge increase in sanctions against jobseeker’s allowance claimants. In order to have a fuller picture and to be confident that there are indeed grounds for celebration, may we have a debate on the reasons for those sanctions, the number of appeals pending and the outcomes of the appeals heard so far?
Mr Lansley
The hon. Gentleman might wish to raise those issues during Work and Pensions questions on Monday 18 November. I do not think that it is a matter of celebrating sanctions. I think it is important for us all that we focus the state’s resources on supporting those in need, whether that arises from disability or relative vulnerability, and those genuinely seeking work. It is therefore important that those who should be seeking work are genuinely doing so.
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
May we have a debate on how a co-director of a company can possibly meet the requirements for an application for financial support and assistance, including legal aid, when the company’s accounts are being withheld by her spouse, from whom she is separated?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her question. I will not delve into it too far, because it seems quite an interesting and difficult point. It is a statutory requirement that a company’s accounts are made available through Companies House. If I may, I will refer her question to my right hon. and hon. Friends at the Ministry of Justice, because it relates to legal aid, to see whether they can provide her with a further helpful answer.
Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)
May we have a debate on the international festival for business, which Liverpool is hosting next year on behalf of the whole UK? A debate would enable us to hear about the excellent work taking place in Liverpool, carried out by Liverpool Vision on behalf of Liverpool city council, and consider how the whole UK could benefit from the business opportunities on offer.
Mr Lansley
I cannot promise a debate immediately, but I think that the House would welcome such an opportunity, which interested Members might seek through the Backbench Business Committee. I completely agree that it would be good to have an opportunity to celebrate that, not least the new business formation and the regeneration and renaissance of businesses in and around the north-west, and in Liverpool in particular. I know from my visits to the city that it has shown admirable progress in regeneration and in new business creation, and I hope that that can be showcased for the whole country from Liverpool to the rest of the world.
Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)
Last night, Mr Speaker, you kindly hosted an event to highlight the campaign for women’s rights in Afghanistan. I was pleased to meet students there from Benton Park school in my constituency who have done considerable work in that area. Given the withdrawal of troops next year, may we have a debate on that important issue so that we can lend our support as this becomes even more urgent as the 2014 date draws nearer?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend and join him in welcoming the Amnesty International event to which he refers. As it happens, my right hon. and noble Friend Baroness Warsi, the Senior Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, was in Afghanistan yesterday, when she raised with Deputy Foreign Minister Ahmadi and others the need to uphold the historic gains in women’s rights since 2001. We work in partnership with the Afghan Government and others to further progress the rights of all Afghan citizens, including the equal rights of women and girls. As for a debate, it would clearly be helpful at some point, but it might be premature in advance of the presidential and provincial elections in Afghanistan scheduled for April next year.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
Yesterday, the Court of Appeal found against the Department for Work and Pensions on the very important issue of the independent living fund. Today, serious allegations have been made about the Department’s conduct. Is it not correct and proper that the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions should come to this House to be held publicly accountable to all Members on these issues and not have private conversations with the Leader of the House that are supposed to satisfy my constituents?
Mr Lansley
On the hon. Gentleman’s latter point, the purpose of the conversation was so that I could give the House the assurance that I clearly have given to it. On his first point, we were pleased that the Court of Appeal upheld the way in which we undertook our consultation on the future of the independent living fund and accepted that it had been carried out properly and fairly. By contrast, we are disappointed with some aspects of the decision. We will examine the judgment very carefully, consider its implications, and, in due course, take and announce decisions on how we intend to proceed.
Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)
We are approaching the first anniversary of the elections of police and crime commissioners. In the Humberside police area, we are fortunate to have Matthew Grove as our commissioner. He is doing an excellent job in contact with local communities in improving policing in their areas. May we have a debate in Government time to mark this important anniversary of an excellent coalition policy?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I have had the pleasure of meeting Matthew Grove during the past year and hearing from him about the excellent and innovative, almost exciting, ways in which he is—
Mr Lansley
I never get excited. However, they were certainly innovative and effective. He and others are demonstrating that police reforms are working and crime is falling. The police and crime commissioners have been a mechanism by which the public can see that their priorities are being reflected directly into the priorities of policing in their area. That is welcome not only for democratic purposes but from the operational point of view.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
Yesterday at the all-party group on youth affairs, the Youth Select Committee launched its report, “A Curriculum for Life”, which is the result of its inquiry into the role of the education system in supporting young people to develop life skills. Please may we have a debate on that excellent report?
Mr Lansley
I cannot promise a debate immediately, but the hon. Lady makes an important point. I hope that if she is in her place on Monday at Education questions she might have a further opportunity to highlight it to Education Ministers. I recollect that at last year’s meeting of the United Kingdom Youth Parliament in this Chamber, its members resolved to pursue the issue of a curriculum for life, so they are on exactly the page to which she refers. When the Youth Parliament is here next week, it will have an opportunity to reinforce the point, which I hope that we as a House will then have further opportunities to take up.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
May we have an urgent debate on motorway congestion in West Yorkshire? For two years, my constituents have suffered from the implementation of the managed motorways scheme between Huddersfield and Leeds. Now the central barrier is being replaced, causing yet more congestion, and they cannot even use the M1 north from Wakefield to Leeds because it is now having its own managed motorway scheme implemented as well. This is a really important issue for my constituents every morning.
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who raised these important issues about the M62 earlier. There is inevitably some disruption during these works. He will know that the further work relating to barriers on the M62 was not able to be funded at the time when the managed motorways scheme was being introduced. That is a pity, but the work is now due to be completed in December. I can assure him that the Highways Agency will keep three lanes open to traffic during the day, limiting necessary lane closures to overnight where possible. I hope that the smart motorway works that have been undertaken will bring extra capacity and more reliable journeys for his commuters in future.
Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)
The Leader of the House has sought to assure the House that the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions did not seek to influence an independent Select Committee. Given the interest in and seriousness of the allegations, I am sure that is something the Secretary of State will want to explain to the House himself. Can this be arranged and can we then have a debate on who at the Department for Work and Pensions should take the blame for the shambles of universal credit, which is affecting the lives of so many constituents, including mine, across the country?
Mr Lansley
I do not think that I sought to assure the House—I think that I have assured the House. I have made that clear. I reiterate my earlier point that the Public Accounts Committee report makes important points about the historic problems, and that is precisely why the Secretary of State and my colleagues have sought to ensure the safe and sound delivery of the programme by proceeding at a different pace for the roll-out. They and we remain committed to the achievement of universal credit on time and on budget, because the resources we provide should be directed towards supporting those who are most in need, and in the context of ensuring that it always pays to be in work.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
May we have a debate on the Government’s policy on light rail? The excellent “Green light for light rail” report overturned the anti-tram policy of the previous Government but, unfortunately, Leeds is still being told that we cannot have a tram station and that we have to have a bus-based scheme, which was a decision made by the previous Government. May we have a debate on why Leeds cannot have a modern light rail scheme?
Mr Lansley
I will ask my colleagues at the Department for Transport to respond to the particular points raised by the hon. Gentleman, but he and his colleagues in Leeds may wish to secure an Adjournment debate on the issue. My constituency has a guided busway scheme that uses an old rail route. It has become very successful and is now exceeding its anticipated passenger numbers. Although there were considerable difficulties involved in establishing it, it is possible to have an effective public transport route, through a guided busway system, on an old rail corridor.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
On average, for every £100 a man earns, a woman earns only £85. Today is equal pay day, the day when women in effect stop being paid due to the 14.9% gender pay gap. It is 43 years since the Equal Pay Act 1970, 100 years since the suffragette movement and 125 years since the match women’s strike, so may we please have a debate on ensuring that all women get equal pay for work of equal value?
Mr Lansley
I hope and believe that there are common values on this issue throughout the House. It is something we have legislated on and we seek to pursue it in the public sector. The evidence today suggests that we have made more progress than appears generally to be the case in the private sector. The hon. Lady will recall that equal pay day in the private sector was 27 August. We have to make progress on the issue. If an opportunity arises for a debate, not least through the Backbench Business Committee, I for one would welcome it.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
May we have a full day’s debate in Government time on Britain’s rapidly increasing population? Official statistics suggest that Britain’s population will increase from 63.7 million today to 73.3 million in 2037 and that we will have to absorb another city the size of Greater London, which will put huge pressures on our public services, social cohesion, jobs and wages.
Mr Lansley
Those are interesting figures from the Office for National Statistics, although they are in the nature of a forecast, some aspects of which we can influence and some we cannot. For example, over roughly the past decade, this country’s birth rate has gone up by, I think, about 16%. There is a limit to what we can do. The increase in population is also a result of increased longevity. The combination of those two things will inevitably mean an increase in our population and we have to respond to that.
We must therefore ensure that we manage migration into this country better than has been done in the past. That is why we set ourselves the objective of bringing net migration down from a quarter of a million a year to the tens of thousands. We have made considerable progress and have reduced net migration by a third. We need to continue with that because of the simple fact that an increase in the total population creates pressure on resources.
Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)
May we have a statement on the plans for a trans-Pennine transport feasibility study, which the Chief Secretary to the Treasury announced in June? That will directly affect the Longdendale area of my constituency, which is heavily congested. I first wrote to the Department for Transport at the end of June to follow up on that welcome announcement and have contacted the Department three times to seek a response. I appreciate that there have been ministerial changes, but I am eager for news. If the Department needs any assistance in formulating its response, I reiterate that I am happy to work with it, as is my Conservative neighbour, the hon. Member for High Peak (Andrew Bingham), to deliver the feasibility study. Will the Leader of the House kindly pass that message on?
Mr Lansley
I will, of course, do so. It is one of my responsibilities to assist Members by ensuring that my colleagues respond to them on such issues.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
I thank the Leader of the House for his fitting tribute to the brave soldier from 3rd Battalion the Mercian Regiment, the Staffords. Our thoughts and prayers are with his family, friends and fellow Mercians.
May we have a debate on the responsibility of banks for the way in which their financial products are sold by agents? My constituent, Mr Locke, was sold a product by an agent for Barclays in such a way that, without his knowledge, he was unable to claim the protection of section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 when the service was not delivered in the way that had been promised.
Mr Lansley
I will talk to my right hon. and hon. Friends at the Treasury about securing a response on that matter. The work of the Financial Conduct Authority will enable some of those issues to be pursued. The Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill is being considered in another place. When it returns to this House, I hope that the measures will be further strengthened to protect consumers in the way that my hon. Friend describes.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
A survey of businesses in my constituency found that exporters are seeing solid growth and that they expect that growth to continue. Given that next week is export week, please may we have a debate about the support that is provided to new exporters so that they can grab the opportunities that are available to their business and, in so doing, make a big difference to the national economy?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend once again illustrates a general point with the welcome progress that is being made in his constituency. As I said earlier, the resources and support that the Government are giving to UK Trade & Investment are making a difference. The way in which the Foreign Secretary has reoriented the priorities of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and our diplomatic posts around the world is making a difference. The support that the Government are giving to bilateral chambers of commerce is making a difference too. The connections that that will provide to chambers of commerce and local enterprise partnerships in local areas will enable smaller businesses to network and to access export promotion and support more effectively than in the past.
Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)
Why does the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions not want to come to this place to defend himself against the serious allegations that have been made in The Times this morning?
Mr Lansley
I have reported the facts to the House. They do not give rise to the need for a statement because the allegations are not true.
Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)
It was announced recently that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs offices in York will be part-privatised. That is causing concern for a number of my constituents. May we have a debate on the outsourcing of jobs and, more importantly, on the fear that some of those jobs might be outsourced abroad?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend will be aware of the benefits of joint working and the sharing of services between Departments. I do not think that any decision has been made, other than that services will continue to be provided out of York and Alnwick. Beyond that, I do not know what the situation is. I will ask colleagues at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to write to him about where shared services might be delivered.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
Between 1997 and 2010, 50,000 hospital beds were cut, including a number in my constituency. We were told those beds were no longer needed, but in recent years, hospitals in and around my constituency have had to open emergency beds to deal with winter pressure, due to a failure of intermediate care services. In my constituency at the moment, the local Labour party is fighting against proposals for a new 30-bed intermediate care centre. May we have a debate on the urgent need for proper intermediate care services across the country?
Mr Lansley
I cannot promise a debate immediately, although I suspect the House will recall just how strongly Members have felt in the past about the availability of intermediate care services, often in the context of locally accessible community hospitals. The devolution of responsibilities to clinical commissioning groups with active GP involvement gives an opportunity for that to be reconsidered, in particular by GPs who recognise the needs of their patients for treatment locally, accessible admissions and step-down care after admission to acute services. We might see a reduction in the number of beds in the most acute context, but care of the kind my hon. Friend refers to must also be available. I know that clinical commissioning groups will focus on that point.
Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)
Will the Leader of the House use his good offices to apply pressure on an issue that has come to my attention over the past 24 hours? A book for sale on Amazon, “To Train up a Child” by Michael and Debi Pearl advocates the beating of children under the age of 12 months, using a switch. The book recommends that a switch be cut from a willow tree, and be no longer than 12 inches in length and 8 cm in diameter. It advocates the use of paddles, rulers and other means to beat children from four months onwards. I have written to the Secretaries of State for Culture, Media and Sport and for Education, and to the Prime Minister’s Office and Amazon. Given that this issue has come to light only in the past 24 hours, will the Leader of the House advise how we can bring this issue to Parliament and apply pressure on Amazon to remove this book from sale?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend has raised an important point, and Members of the House will be rather shocked by what she has described. She has raised her point in the House, and I will certainly talk to colleagues in the Departments for Culture, Media and Sport and for Education. I hope there will be a proper response from those responsible for Amazon’s publicity and marketing of this book, but if that does not happen, my hon. Friends from the Department for Education will be in the Chamber on Monday. That might be a further opportunity if those responsible for this issue have not taken action.
Mr Speaker
I have a feeling the hon. Lady will be in her place on Monday. I hope that is helpful for today.
Points of Order
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You will know that since a resolution of the House in 1688, it has been clear that Committees of the House should proceed without let or hindrance. Page 838 of “Erskine May” states:
“Any disclosure of written evidence or a Committee’s internal working papers, which has not been authorised by the Committee, may be treated as a contempt. In particular, disclosure of a draft report which has been submitted to a Committee before such a report has been agreed to by the Committee and presented to the House may be treated as a contempt.”
The allegations that the Leader of the House has tried to brush off today about what the Secretary of State is said to have done go considerably further than he suggests. We do not know whether the Leader of the House has asked the Secretary of State all the relevant questions. We want to ask questions in the Chamber. My point of order to you, Mr Speaker, is this: can you make it absolutely clear to the Leader of the House that it is perfectly possible to have a statement tomorrow, or for that matter an urgent question, and that the House would regard it as a courtesy to hear directly from the Secretary of State, and not just second hand from the Leader of the House?
Mr Speaker
It is, of course, perfectly possible for there to be either an urgent question or a statement tomorrow, but I feel sure that those are facts of which the Leader of the House was already well aware. I am merely courteously repeating them in order properly to respond to the hon. Gentleman’s point of order.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Home Secretary said on Monday, about the latest TPIM terror suspect to abscond:
“I do not have his passport, but the police do.”—[Official Report, 4 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 27.]
However, the Home Secretary has since asked that Hansard be corrected to say:
“I do not have his passport, Mohamed was not in possession of his British passport when he returned to the UK so there was no passport for the police to seize.”—[Official Report, 6 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 1MC.]
Can you tell me whether it is in order for a Secretary of State to try to amend Hansard because of her own error, or should she come back to Parliament and correct the record herself? Can Hansard even be changed in this way, especially as it has been printed and the facts have now changed?
Mr Speaker
I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for her point of order, of which I did not have advance notice. Therefore my immediate reply is that I will look into the matter that she has very properly raised.
The issue of the Intelligence and Security Committee was raised earlier and for the purpose of clarification I wish to remind the House that the Committee may sound like a Select Committee and, at its hearing today, it may look like a Select Committee, but in fact it is not a Select Committee. We will leave it there for now.
Personal Statement
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
A report has been published today by the Standards Committee following an investigation by the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards into complaints made about me. I am grateful to the commissioner for her thorough, courteous and professional work and her report, and to the Chair of the Committee, its members and Clerk for dealing with this matter in a very fair and efficient way. I accept entirely their conclusions.
From the beginning I believed that I had not breached the lobbying rules and I am grateful and relieved that the commissioner and the Committee have rejected those complaints. The Committee has found that there was no attempt to conceal any donations, which were all reported to the Electoral Commission and in the public domain, but that I failed to register in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests some donations to my local party; that I failed to make declarations in debate, and in connection with one meeting, in relation to two of those donations; and that I registered two donations late. I have, of course, admitted my mistakes and apologised from the outset to the commissioner and to the Committee.
Although the commissioner found that none of these breaches of the rules was intentional, I accept entirely the findings of the commissioner and the Committee that I was not as attentive to these matters or as careful as I should have been, and therefore in those ways failed properly to observe the code of conduct, and that I did not sufficiently seek advice from the registrar. I will immediately register the outstanding interests as the Committee recommends. I take full responsibility for these failures and I apologise unreservedly to the House.
Backbench Business
Tobacco Packaging
(11 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Speaker
Under the order of the House of 29 October, this debate must conclude at 3 pm. I should point out that we need to put a time limit of 10 minutes on Backbench speeches in view of the level of interest and the constraints of time. The limit does not of course apply to the person introducing the debate, but I know that he will wish to tailor his remarks to take account of the number of his colleague who wish to participate.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered standardised packaging of tobacco products.
I welcome our first opportunity to debate this matter in the Chamber since the Government made their decision in the summer, and I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing it to take place.
The Department of Health held an extended consultation on standardised packaging of tobacco products, but it was greatly disappointing to people across the House that the Government decided not to proceed with standardisation. In September we had a very full Westminster Hall when we debated this subject. It was the first day back after our summer recess, so I suspected that we would not get a full audience, but in the end 21 Members spoke, meaning that a strict time limit had to be imposed on speeches. It was a wide-ranging debate that allowed everyone to put their point of view, and I hope that we can do the same thing in this Chamber this afternoon.
Since that Westminster Hall debate, we have had a new Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison), whom I welcome to her place. She has an opportunity to set out the Government’s position on standardised packaging of tobacco products, and I hope that she will indicate some movement in favour of standardisation. When this matter was raised in Health questions recently, it was debated at length, with many Members wishing to get in. By way of context, there is also an upcoming House of Lords debate on the Children and Families Bill, which I hope will result in the Bill being amended to outlaw the smoking of tobacco products by people travelling in cars with young children.
Obviously, we do not wish to divide the House today, but I say to the Government that unless we get some movement before Christmas, we will seek another debate, with a Division, so that the will of the House can be expressed.
Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)
How does my hon. Friend think that the banning of smoking by people travelling in cars with children would be enforced?
Bob Blackman
I do not wish to be diverted from our subject, which is the standardisation of tobacco packaging. I will leave it to the other place to determine that matter, but no doubt if it has the wisdom to implement that rule, it will come back here for further debate.
Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con)
I share my hon. Friend’s concerns about smoking, and I agree that we should do everything possible to get people to stop smoking and to stop young people in particular taking it up, but does he agree that policy has to be evidence-based, that we should wait and see what emerges elsewhere across the globe and that, in view of that, we should continue to educate people, particularly young people, not to take it up in the first place?
Bob Blackman
I will come to that point—particularly in respect of young people—later.
I am personally committed to stopping people smoking in the first place and to helping them give up. Both my parents died of cancer. My mother died at 47 of lung and throat cancer, and I still remember what she went through. It was the direct result of a long-standing tobacco habit.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
It would also be great to cut the amount of each cigarette smoked. Would the hon. Gentleman like to take up the suggestion of not just changing the packaging of the box, but printing something on the cigarette itself to encourage people to stop smoking before they get to the end?
Bob Blackman
That sounds like a good idea. We are not talking about that today, but it could be included in the evidence.
We have an opportunity to debate these issues. As my hon. Friend the Member for Reading West (Alok Sharma) said, we must take an evidence-based approach. The widespread consultation that the Department of Health conducted over the summer found a welter of evidence supporting the standardisation of packaging and its impact on the numbers of people taking up or giving up smoking. I am secretary of the all-party group on smoking and health and I regard tobacco control as a very high priority for any Government, and an issue that cuts across party lines and creates different views. I welcome the fact that members of the APPG from all parties are here to debate the issue.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
I entirely agree that any standardised packaging to which we agree should be evidence-based. We have looked at the results from Australia after nine months. The anecdotal evidence so far suggests that although people have switched to cheaper brands, the volume of cigarettes being sold has not altered. What does the hon. Gentleman make of that?
Bob Blackman
The issue for us is that we want to remove the last aspects of advertising that are available to the tobacco industry. At the moment, there is still an attractive promotional aspect of tobacco, which is the packaging. We want all tobacco packs to be uniform, including the colour of the pack, and to allow the promotion of strong anti-smoking and pro-health messages. Evidence is emerging from Australia, but other parts of the globe are going ahead with standardisation of packaging, including Ireland.
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)
My hon. Friend is making a powerful point. Does he agree that use of the term “standard packaging” or “plain packaging” is a misnomer? We should be calling it “stark-staring truth packaging”. What it means is that we are handing someone a packet with a picture of gangrene. It is actually a crystal ball, and it counteracts the very powerful subliminal messages and the last legal form of tobacco marketing in this country.
Bob Blackman
The fact is that smoking is a lethal addiction. We know that. It is the one product in service in the world where, if used in the way it is intended, will lead directly to poor health and possibly death. Across England, 80,000 people a year die from smoking-related diseases. There are more premature deaths from smoking than from obesity, alcohol, illegal drug use and AIDS put together. It is the biggest single killer. In the long run, if we can get a fall of just one percentage point in smoking prevalence rates, we could save 1,800 lives per year. Who would not wish to save 1,800 lives per year? There cannot be an effective public health policy unless tobacco control is at its heart.
Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)
Every one of us in the House will remember how, in our youth, cigarettes were marketed as fashionable, trendy and stylish. With 200,000 children starting smoking every year in Britain, and 11,000 in Wales, is it not right that we send a very clear message that smoking is not trendy or stylish; it is a killer?
Bob Blackman
The hon. Lady comes on to a particular issue. The vast majority of smokers begin smoking in childhood. Two thirds of current smokers began under the age of 18 and we know that 200,000 young people under the age of 15 begin to smoke every year. When you add in the people that begin to smoke between 15 and 18, it becomes 300,000 smokers per year. Once someone is hooked, it is very difficult to give up. Most people say that after the direct sale of cigarettes to minors was made unlawful, many young people still continued to start smoking. Cancer Research stated in 2011 that more than 200,000 young people under the age of 16 had started to smoke. We must make sure that we reduce that number quite drastically.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
My hon. Friend talks about the accessibility of cigarettes for people who take up smoking. Gillingham has the largest amount of illegal cigarettes smoked in the country, which has an effect on health, the economy and crime. Does he agree that more needs to be done nationally to ensure that we stop these illegal cigarettes coming in to our country?
Bob Blackman
I agree completely. That demonstrates the failure of the tobacco industry to stop the illicit trade, even under the current advertising arrangements for packaging.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
The hon. Gentleman will know that more than 1,000 people in my constituency are directly employed by the tobacco industry, which creates huge employment opportunities for my constituents. Why will he not just be honest and say that we should ban smoking altogether and make it illegal? That is the direction of travel he is taking. We are hearing all this nonsense about different colours, subliminal messages and messages written on cigarettes; let us cut the nonsense. Why will he not be honest with the House and say that he wants to ban smoking altogether?
Bob Blackman
I am not one of those who wants to ban particular substances. If someone wants to put a cigarette in their mouth, set light to it and attempt to kill themselves, that is their choice. They have the freedom to do so. All I say is, “Don’t breathe that smoke over me, don’t breathe it over children, don’t inflict it on others.”
Bob Blackman
I have taken several interventions, and I know that Mr Deputy Speaker wants me to make progress.
Once young people start smoking, they are likely to continue for the rest of their lives. Smoking causes much more damage to young lungs, which increases the likelihood of young people dying from smoking-related diseases. The tobacco industry is desperate to retain its market share, and to recruit new smokers every year. After all, older smokers either quit or die, and younger people also die from smoking-related diseases. Most of the new smokers will be children. In my constituency, about 550 children start smoking every year. That is a scandal, and I want to see that figure radically reduced.
To make the control policy more effective, we must prevent children from starting to smoke in the first place. We must adopt policies that make it more difficult for the tobacco industry to target and recruit new smokers. Once again, however, if young people choose to start smoking, that is their right. In trying to find the policies to achieve that result, we could do worse than look at the commercial strategies adopted by the tobacco industry itself. Over many years, the industry has designed its advertising and marketing to promote an image of smoking that is most likely to appeal to young people.
A great deal of information about this has come into the public domain, particularly after confidential industry documents were made public following the US tobacco master settlement with the industry in 1998. I shall give the House an example. An internal R. J. Reynolds document from 1981 states:
“Smoking is frequently used in situations when people are trying to make friends, to look more mature, to look more attractive, to look ‘cooler’, and to feel more comfortable around others. These aspects of social interaction are especially prevalent among younger adult smokers”.
I could not have put it better myself. The fact is that the industry markets itself in that way.
Successive Governments have made it more difficult for the industry to reach its target teenage market. Conventional tobacco advertising is banned, and I welcome that. I also welcome the banning of retail displays in large shops. They will soon be outlawed in smaller shops as well. Stopping smoking in enclosed spaces has significantly reduced the exposure of young people to smoking.
Mr Nuttall
My hon. Friend said that he had no objection to people taking up smoking. Does he not feel that, in a free society, we would cross a dangerous line if we were to prevent manufacturers from differentiating their brand from the others?
Bob Blackman
No, I do not. It is quite right that we should take action to prevent manufacturers from making their products more attractive to children and young people.
We are left with one large loophole, through which the tobacco industry is still furiously blowing smoke. The packs themselves can be used to market and advertise, to create brand identities, and to help to present an image of smoking that might indeed seem “cool” to an insecure teenager.
Jake Berry
My hon. Friend is generous in giving way and is making an excellent opening speech. On the covering up of cigarettes in large and small retailers—something I support—at what point does he think that packets will be on display as advertisements for the tobacco companies if they are covered up at the point of sale? Will it just be at the point when the cigarettes are in someone’s hand—after they have already been bought?
Bob Blackman
My hon. Friend brings me to the next aspect of the issue. The cigarettes will be behind closed doors, as it were, and the only time when smokers will display their tobacco branding will be when they take out their pack to smoke, which is welcome.
Bob Blackman
Indeed, but that is the only advertising that the tobacco industry can currently have.
The trade magazine World Tobacco advises:
“If your brand can no longer shout from billboards, let alone from the cinema screen or the pages of a glossy magazine…it can at least court smokers…from wherever it is placed by those already wedded to it.”
That is the industry speaking. Philip Morris International, in its company response to the consultation on standardised packaging, said that as
“an integral part of the product…packaging is an important means of differentiating brands and in that sense is a means of communicating to consumers about what brands are on sale and in particular the good will associated with our trademarks, indicating brand value and quality. Placing trademarks on packaged goods is, thus, at the heart of commercial expression.”
Alok Sharma
I thank my hon. Friend, who is making a very passionate speech. I know he feels very strongly about this subject. At the end of the day, however, we have noted the importance of policy being evidence-based. I do not hold a candle for the manufacturers of cigarettes, but I understand that KPMG published a report in October showing that the emerging evidence from Australia was that the introduction of standardised packaging has seen an increase in the levels of illicit tobacco and no reduction in consumption. Would my hon. Friend like to comment on that?
Bob Blackman
I will comment on it in a few moments. I shall skip over the last few sections of my speech, as I know that Mr Deputy Speaker wishes me to conclude.
The research done by Stirling university’s public health research consortium shows that standardised packaging is less attractive to potential consumers. That is good news because it means that if we have standardised packaging, smoking will be less attractive to young people and children. The reviewers looked at 17 further studies, so there is no lack of evidence. There is plenty of evidence, and the evidence in favour of standardised packaging is very strong.
Bob Blackman
I will not give way because I am under time constraints.
The industry’s position is quite clear: it wishes to protect the intellectual property rights of its product, and it thinks that that trumps the requirements of public health. I say that public health is much more important than the rights and wrongs of the tobacco industry. Tobacco firms have spent heavily, tried to lobby Members and the Department of Health and sought to prevent progress on this issue. They have put the different aspects of the argument, but I am sure that colleagues will allude to the fact that there are ways of stopping the illicit trade and ensuring that security is maintained on the product. We can prevent the illicit trade from growing.
Let me touch on what is happening in Australia. The evidence has been very positive. One study showed that, compared with smokers who were still using branded packs when the research was carried out, standardised pack smokers were 66% more likely to think their cigarettes were poorer quality than a year ago; 70% more likely to say they found them less satisfying; and 81% more likely to have thought about quitting at least once a day every week since the ban was introduced.
Bob Blackman
I will not give way, because Mr Deputy Speaker wants us to make progress.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. Everyone wants to get in, but we are running out of time. I need to remind the House that the opening speech was to be 15 minutes, but we are well over that already.
Bob Blackman
Now that we have the evidence, I ask the Government to listen to the debate. We will hear a response from the Minister, and I trust that by the end of this debate, the view of the House will be overwhelming and the Government will seek to introduce regulation on standardised packaging as fast as possible. We will not seek to divide the House today—this is a general debate—but if the Government do not come forward with regulations before Christmas, we will seek another debate on a motion that allows the House to divide and express its clear will.
Mr Deputy Speaker
Order. I shall now reduce the speaking time limit to eight minutes—[Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) wants me to reduce it further, I shall be more than happy to do so, but I am sure that he would rather speak for eight minutes than five. The danger is that speeches will run on, and many Members wish to speak in the second debate.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
I understand the time constraints, Mr Deputy Speaker.
I, too, am grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for giving us an opportunity to debate this issue. I am pleased to be following the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), who has more than earned his spurs through his campaign.
On the last occasion when we tried to encourage the Government to act in this regard, speakers were restricted to just three minutes, and even a number of Members on the other side of the argument shared our frustration because they had so little time to put their case. Many Members in all parts of the House are still far from happy that the Government are delaying the decision to do the right thing and implement the proposals for standardised packaging—a delay that will lead to countless more young people starting to smoke.
Pete Wishart
No doubt the hon. Gentleman is aware of the efforts that have been made in Scotland, and wishes to congratulate the Scottish Government on the fact that we are going to introduce standardised packaging as well as minimum pricing. We are going to do that because we take the issue of public health very seriously, and because we do not have Lynton Crosby advising us.
Alex Cunningham
I will congratulate any Government who are making the right decision on plain packaging.
I am aware that some Members fear that a fall in demand for tobacco will cost many of their constituents their jobs. I know that they will stand up and speak for the industry, but they will also be speaking for their constituents. I hope that the prospect of improved health, a smaller burden on the national health service and the protection of children will make them think again. I also hope that today’s debate will focus not on the cynical speculation that surrounds the drivers of tobacco policy and the influence that the tobacco lobbyists are able to exert, but on the decidedly positive effects that standardised packaging could bring, and the harm that is likely to result if the Government continue to insist on dragging their feet.
Reducing the prevalence of tobacco use is a key public health priority. None of us needs reminding of the consequences of smoking, which remains the leading cause of preventable mortality in the UK. Half the number of lifetime smokers will die from smoking-related diseases, which means that there may be 100,000 preventable deaths each year. One in five adults continues to smoke, and many people continue to take up the habit, including 573 children aged between 11 and 15 each and every day.
Dr Wollaston
Does it not strike the hon. Gentleman as strange that the Government claim to be delaying the introduction of standardised packaging because they want to wait for more evidence, but at the same time are virtually rushing into regulation to make e-cigarettes a medicinal product, although there is mounting evidence that, if anything, they could cause harm?
Alex Cunningham
I agree that we also need to look into the issues surrounding the smoking of electronic cigarettes.
The Government should be acting on this matter. The evidence has already been presented to the House today. It is unquestionable that we need to take action now, and save children and young people from an addictive habit that will devastate their lives.
As I have said many times before, while I disagreed with the former Health Secretary, the right hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), about a number of issues, I believe that the best thing he ever said was that he wanted the tobacco industry to have “no business” in the UK. I hope that the new Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison), shares that goal, and will pursue it with the vigour that it deserves. I welcome her recent assertion that
“Stopping children and young people smoking is a priority for us all”.
However, actions speak louder than words.
Since the Government’s consultation closed 15 months ago, Australia has become the first country to introduce standardised packaging for tobacco products. That is already changing attitudes. Our own Government’s inaction in failing to enact measures similar to those in Australia poses a major threat to tobacco control. However, I was pleased to hear the new Under-Secretary of State tell the House during Health questions last month that
“new information ... not just from this country but from around the world… is under very active consideration.” —[Official Report, 22 October 2013; Vol. 569, c. 132.]
I should welcome her confirmation of the timetable for the completion of that consideration and the making of a definitive decision.
I have no doubt that standardised packaging for tobacco products is necessary to quell demand. Smoking is an addiction that begins in childhood, and tobacco packaging is designed to be attractive, catching the eye of young people in particular. I am aware of the damage that this horrible habit is doing to people in my constituency, young and old alike, many of whom live in some of the most deprived wards in the country. We need to take active steps to reduce the incidence of smoking, and to implement measures to prevent future uptake. The decision to delay progress with standard packaging will needlessly condemn hundreds of thousands more to a life of addiction because some think it “cool” to smoke. Plain packaging fits the bill. Not only is there a real need for it, but it is a solution that is wanted and workable.
It is worth noting that, during a Westminster Hall debate in September, the former Under-Secretary of State for Public Health, the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), recounted her own experiences of tobacco addiction and its horrendous consequences. Fortunately, she was able to kick the habit. It is significant that she recalled the “power of the packet”, and spoke openly of choosing a particular brand of cigarette for her first pack
“because they were green, gorgeous and a symbol of glamour.”—[Official Report, 3 September 2013; Vol. 567, c. 23WH.]
Indeed, she made a superb case for standardised packaging as a means of preventing future uptake. I hope that that, along with evidence provided by fellow Members today, will remind the Health Secretary of the strong supporting evidence, and persuade him to delay no more. Perhaps he will even go so far as to do the right thing and give Members the right to vote on the issue, thus allowing the will of Parliament to be implemented.
The United Kingdom has previously taken a leading role in this regard, certainly in Europe. It has some of the most comprehensive tobacco control policies in the world, not least the tobacco control plan, which led to the introduction of smoke-free public places and the banning of displays on retail premises. It is clear that the current Government have recognised, at least to some degree, the raft of negative consequences that can arise from ready access to branded packaging, yet Ministers remain adamant that the evidence we have is not substantial enough, and continue to insist that non-legislative solutions are better suited to the task in hand.
There is already a wealth of evidence that standardised packaging works, and new evidence is being published all the time. A systematic review of 37 peer-reviewed studies, carried out by the university of Stirling for the Department of Health, found standard packaging to be less attractive while also improving the effectiveness of health warnings, thereby reducing smoking uptake among young people. The review also found that standardised packs were perceived as having less “clutter” to detract from the all-important health warnings, with the monotony and sincerity of the packaging serving to enhance their seriousness and believability. Since then at least 12 additional studies have been published, and the growing body of research consistently reports that standardised packaging would reduce the appeal of tobacco products and increase the effectiveness of health warnings.
Lest there be any doubt, let me add that the evidence from Australia confirms those findings. Not only do those who smoke cigarettes from standardised packs perceive their cigarettes to be of a lower quality than those from branded packs, but there is a demonstrated tendency to perceive cigarettes as less satisfying.
Simon Wright
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the number of calls to Quitline, Australia’s smoking cessation service, has increased considerably since the introduction of the new law in that country?
Alex Cunningham
We can all choose which part of the briefing we wish to cite. It is clear to me that standardised packaging is working in Australia, and I am sure that it will continue to do so. The hon. Member for Harrow East mentioned that 81% of people were likely to have thought about quitting at least once a day during the past week, and I think that that too is an important statistic.
What further evidence does the Secretary of State need to see before he commits himself decisively to making these life-saving changes? Pressure on smoking must be continuous and relentless, because we are fighting a pervasive, lethal and powerful addiction. We cannot afford to waver or hesitate. Every year more than 200,000 people under the age of 16 start to smoke, and that is 200,000 too many. Even if plain packaging just halves the number of new young smokers who are currently attracted to the slim, colourful and glamorous packs, it will have had a major impact on hundreds of thousands of lives.
If we wait the suggested three years for evidence from Australian legislation to emerge, little if any progress will be made. Incidentally, in the United Kingdom fewer people are attempting to quit with the help of the national health service for the first time in five years. The current prospect is unacceptable. The Government must act now to prevent further tragedy, rather than adopting the leisurely timetable that has been proposed by some who think that they know better, or perhaps have vested interests.
Let me drive the point home. More than 250 people die prematurely every year from smoking-related diseases in my local authority area of Stockton-on-Tees. We have a lung cancer rate of 67.1 per 100,000 people, which is a staggering 40% higher than the national average, and figures show that 610 children aged between 10 and 14 are already regular smokers.
I recall young people referring to cigarettes as “cancer sticks”, but many still think it cool to smoke. I see them walking to school, cigarette in hand or mouth, and it upsets me to think that had the Government acted, many of them would not have been attracted to the habit at all. Attempts are being made in the other place to introduce new clauses to the Children and Families Bill which would create a requirement for standardised packaging, and it is also possible that my own proposals to render it illegal to smoke in any vehicle where children are present will be reintroduced.
Alex Cunningham
No.
I hope the Government will do the right thing by pre-empting the votes in the other place and announcing they will introduce their own legislation and put this matter to bed once and for all. No company should be allowed to promote such a deadly product through advertising and marketing. The glamorised packet in the hands of a young person is the most powerful marketing tool the industry now has left. Let us deny it to it without delay.
The case for standard packs is strong, and the need for action is urgent. A few weeks ago I spoke of the two sides in this debate: on the one side, the rich and utterly cynical industry that is quite happy to market products that still kill more than 100,000 people across the UK every year—more than the next six most common causes of preventable death—and on the other side, the medical and health community, politicians from all parties, and the general public. In the middle are the Government. Ministers from the Prime Minister himself down through the ranks know there is evidence that standardised packs will work for the better. I hope they will announce action now and give our people a better chance at better health.
Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Ind)
It is a delight to take part in this important debate, and I declare my interest in the register. Although I no longer own a convenience store in Swansea, I suspect over my lifetime I have sold more cigarettes than everybody in the House has consumed.
I see this as a non-partisan issue. It should be evidence-based. We are talking about treating the sale of a legal commodity completely differently from the sale of any other commodity, and before going down that route, we should ensure that our decisions are properly evidence-based.
I do not smoke, apart from the odd cigar—it is just the odd one—but I am cognisant of the fact that there are over 12 million smokers in this country. The vast majority of them are adults and this is all about individual choice and liberty. The hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) made an important point when he said he believes we are going in the direction of possibly banning cigarettes and tobacco completely, and we should be more honest about that. If these products have the consequences that were described by the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) and my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), that is perhaps the direction in which we will be going. My hon. Friend spoke emotionally about the loss of his parents through cancer. I lost my own dad through cancer as well, and it is hideous seeing loved ones dying in that way.
My father switched brands. He used to smoke Senior Service, then Player’s, and I even think he toyed with Capstan Full Strength at one stage, and as he was dying he switched to Silk Cut—but all far too late, of course. The fact is that anybody who has seen someone die of cancer knows it is hideous.
As has been said, we need education. People must be properly educated about the damaging effects of smoking, and the damaging effects it can have over a lifetime.
I think it is right that we should wait for the evidence from Australia and any other countries that are about to embark down the route of standardised packaging. I know there are World Trade Organisation issues and European Union issues and these will all be dealt with in the right arenas. The EU is looking at standardising 65% of the packaging as far as the health warnings are concerned and making the sale of packs of 10 illegal.
There have been a number of changes to smoking laws in this country, including the banning of smoking in public places. Indeed, we have the Smoking Room in this Parliament where nobody is allowed to smoke, and I have always joked with friends when they leave the pub to have a quick cigarette outside that, given the cold winters in the United Kingdom, pneumonia will become a smoking-related disease. We have brought in these rules, however, and in many cases they are sensible.
It has always struck me that there was a very good argument against banning tobacco advertising. Advertising is influential and therefore important, of course, and it was always the advert at the bottom of the advert that I found most important. The advertisers could put anything on top—“the fat lady sings” adverts, or the Marlboro ones which we had to look at very carefully to work out whether they were advertising cigarettes or something else—but it was the advert below, which was the health warning saying “Smoking kills”, which was always more persuasive to me than anything else displayed.
Mr Nuttall
Does my hon. Friend share my concern that if branding is banned, tobacco companies may use the money they currently spend on branding to cut the price of cigarettes?
Mr Evans
That is exactly what is going to happen, and I think one hon. Member intervened to say that that is part of the evidence from Australia. A lot of people like brands, such as Benson & Hedges or Regal, but others will go for the own-brand—whatever is cheaper. If it is £1 cheaper than the more expensive brands, that is what they will go for. Some people, I swear, will smoke the dust off the floor if it is sold at £1 cheaper than a branded pack. The point my hon. Friend raises therefore has got to be looked at as a possibly unintended consequence of bringing in standardised packaging.
I visited Clitheroe grammar school a few months ago and the issue of why the Government have delayed introducing standardised packaging was mentioned. I thought about it for a while and then I said to the pupil concerned, “Right: how much cannabis and ecstasy is consumed in the UK?” The pupil said, “Oh, quite a lot,” to which I said, “I think you’re probably right. Do us a favour: describe to me the packaging on cannabis or ecstasy.”
I ask Members to think about that for a second. What is the packaging for cannabis or ecstasy? There is no packaging. They come in foil or see-through bags, or in an envelope, perhaps. Clearly, people are not buying these products because of the packaging, standardised or otherwise. They buy them because they want them. That is a strong counter-argument to the proposal to get rid of branding.
Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab)
Surely the answer to the question is that if those things were legal, health warnings would be on them, and quite right, too.
Jake Berry
Surely if making something illegal stops people consuming it, the fact that it is illegal for those under 18 to buy cigarettes would already stop any children taking up smoking.
Mr Evans
We know that is not an effective law, but that does not mean we should not have that law.
I believe we ought to look at education for young people. I do not want to see young people taking up cigarettes or any tobacco products at all. Doing more in the schools is vitally important, as is doing more through public health education campaigns. Will the Minister tell us what plans the Government have to roll out health campaigns particularly aimed at young people, to discourage them from starting to consume tobacco products?
I believe we should wait until we get the proper evidence from Australia and other countries about the impact of standardised packaging. Once we have the evidence, it will be appropriate to decide whether or not to introduce standardised packaging. As I said at the outset, tobacco would be the only product sold in the UK where the state entirely governed the packaging. Before we go down that slippery slope, which may be extended to other products in the future, we should make absolutely certain we have the science and evidence to back up the decision.
Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)
Although I disagree with much of what we have just heard, it is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr Evans). I am grateful that we, once again, have a chance to speak about the merits of standardised packaging. I also spoke on the subject in the debate that took place earlier in the year. Like many other right hon. and hon. Members, I spoke of the devastating effects that smoking-related illnesses have on families and individuals throughout our country. In the 10 months after the Government closed the consultation on this matter, no meaningful action was taken. During that time, 150,000 children will have started to smoke and, as we have heard, addiction results in the death of half its long-term users. Fifteen months have now passed, so we have had another five months during which we have had the opportunity to reduce significantly the 100,000 smoking-related deaths that take place each year. Sadly, yet again, no action has been taken by this Government.
We cannot neglect our duty to give all children and young people the best start in all areas of life. Health, education, decent housing and physical and emotional security are some of the very basics we should strive to achieve. Without them, children do not have an equal chance in life. By failing to protect children from the dangers of smoking when they are too young to make a truly informed choice, we are failing to provide each child with their very basic rights. The reform is simple and the potential gains are immense. There is a reason why smoking-related deaths are labelled as “preventable”. The question is how long, and how many lives will it take, before the Government act.
One thing is clear: standardised cigarette packaging will be introduced. This country has historically taken a strong line on the regulation of harmful products consumed by young people: in 2005, we tightened regulations on the advertising of alcohol, ensuring that advertising did not link to youth culture or irresponsible behaviour; to prevent passive smoking, we banned smoking in public places; to prevent children from taking up smoking at a young age, we made it illegal for shops to sell cigarettes to under-18s; and to prevent cigarettes from being glamorised, we ended sports sponsorship and billboard advertising.
We have put legislation in place to make adult consumers fully aware of the risks associated with smoking, launching nationwide health campaigns and offering tailored support for those who want to quit. Evidence and public support has helped successive Governments strive to improve the health of our nation. We must continue that tradition and strive to give young people every opportunity to live a healthy life. If we are to improve public health, cut preventable deaths and prevent young people from taking up a habit that could cause them significant harm, the course of action that is open to us is clear: standardised cigarette packaging, which can and would improve the health of future generations.
The evidence is clear: advertising works. If it did not, tobacco companies throughout the world would not spend huge amounts of money to reach out to new and existing consumers. Last year. Cancer Research UK released a report on the influence that marketing has on young people. It stated:
“All 19 quantitative studies found standard packs less attractive than branded equivalents, to both adults and children”
and that
“13 qualitative studies found that standard packs consistently received lower ratings on projected personality attributes (such as ‘popular’ and ‘cool’) than branded packs”.
All that reinforces the World Health Organisation’s conclusion:
“Marketing of tobacco products encourages current smokers to smoke more, decreases their motivation to quit and urges young people to start”.
Over half of long-term smokers die from a smoking-related disease, and that amounts to more than 100,000 people each year. In my constituency, 283 people per 100,000 die each year from smoking-related diseases. An estimated 1,110 young people aged between 10 and 14 are classified as regular smokers. Given that nationally each year more than 200,000 young people under 16 are beginning to smoke, inaction amounts to nothing less than neglect. For Barnsley alone, smoking creates a bill amounting to £75.3 million each year; financially, and socially, the costs of smoking are high.
The evidence is clear, and the only thing lacking clarity in this debate is the reason behind the Government’s failure to act. By introducing standardised packaging, Britain would send an important message that we are a country that prioritises our children’s health and well-being. By failing to act, the Government are prioritising business interest over the health of young people and future generations.
Alex Cunningham
My hon. Friend used the word “neglect” and said that we could be neglecting our young people by failing to act. Does he agree that this is a genuine child protection issue?
Dan Jarvis
I agree with my hon. Friend. We are in this place to make judgments about what is in the interests of our constituents, and it is my judgment, as it is his and, I believe, that of the majority of hon. Members, that it is in the short-term, medium-term and long-term public interest of our constituents to introduce standardised cigarette packaging.
I therefore strongly believe that the arguments against plain packaging—standardised packaging—and the justification for the Government’s “wait and see” approach are inconsistent. First, introducing standardised packaging is not aimed at stigmatising adults who already smoke. This is not about limiting choice for adult consumers; standardised packaging does not change what is inside the packet, but is a measure to protect children who are more easily influenced by marketing. Secondly, some hon. Members have argued that introducing such a measure would limit the tobacco industry’s right to advertise. Instead, we should be asking ourselves whether, by allowing the continuation of the status quo, we are infringing on the right of every young person to have a healthy childhood, and increasing their chances of taking up a habit that could have significant health implications for them for the rest of their life.
It is regrettable that I, along with many other hon. Members, must persist in relaying the facts to a Government who, as of yet, seek to ignore the evidence in front of them. This country has been an international leader in public health policy and we should continue to be so. We will have standardised packaging at some point in the future—it is just a question of when. Fundamentally, standardised cigarette packaging is about improving the nation’s health and giving each child the best possible chance of living a healthy life. The choice is theirs when they are an adult, but the responsibility is ours now. I urge the Government to act.
Dame Angela Watkinson (Hornchurch and Upminster) (Con)
May I begin by drawing the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests? I speak as a lifelong non-smoker. I have never smoked and I do not intend ever to smoke. That is my choice, and such a choice is open to anyone, but there has been a huge change in the culture surrounding smoking since I was a child. I do not know whether anyone in the Chamber is as ancient as me, but if they are, they will remember a television advert saying, “You’re never alone with a Strand”. It had a picture of a glamorous, enigmatic man with the collar of his raincoat turned up. He was smoking, and every man wanted to be like him because he was glamorous and mysterious. Hollywood stars, who appeared to spend their entire lives in evening dress, had long cigarette holders and the practice was presented as glamorous, attractive and sophisticated. People of my age at that time could not wait to grow up and reach 16 so that they could smoke—everybody did—because it was a sign that someone had grown up. I suppose that it was a blessing that I was brought up poor and working class. I could not afford to buy cigarettes and I should probably be grateful for that fact now, as it meant that I never took up the habit.
A couple of hon. Members have referred to the harrowing experience of losing a parent to cancer. I share that experience, although it was not smoking-related in my case. It is important that the education on smoking that I never received as a child, nor for several years afterwards, is now available to our younger generation. It was normal for me to see every adult around me smoking, but that is not normal now. If one goes past a place of work, however, there will be a group of people outside smoking, leaving a carpet of cigarette ends on the ground. That is a cause for complaint for all the non-smokers in that organisation, who know that smokers get smoking breaks from time to time during the day that they do not.
In a previous life, when I worked in local government, the one recreation room for staff had to be surrendered to the smokers because the council was obliged to provide a smoking room. It had glass walls, and as one walked around, all one could see was a great fug of smoke. Again, people in there were spending time on breaks that non-smokers were not allowed to take.
I pay tribute to the schools in Hornchurch and Upminster for the important work they are doing to educate our children from the youngest age. They have citizenship classes and school councils, and they take anti-smoking education extremely seriously.
The purpose of plain packaging is mainly to deter young people from taking up smoking and, hopefully, to deter established smokers. As has become obvious, there is consensus on both sides of the House that we should do everything we can to deter young people from taking up smoking and to enable them to understand the health implications of which people were not aware years ago. When I was a child, the health implications of smoking were never mentioned.
The first question we need to ask ourselves is: would plain packaging work? Secondly, what would be the effect on illicit tobacco sales and products? Finally, what would be the effect on small retailers and the design and packaging industry? Several speakers have referred to the fact that plain packaging has been introduced in Australia, but that was only about a year ago. I think that it is far too soon for us to make a credible evaluation of how effective the measure has been on young new smokers and existing smokers.
In 2008, the Department of Health identified the predictors of smoking initiation as age, gender, home environment, drug use and alcohol. Truancy and exclusion from school were also factors, but not packaging or the appearance of tobacco products—and, strangely, not price. When I was young, price was the one thing that stopped me smoking. Had I been able to afford it, I probably would have tried it. The NHS study “Smoking, drinking and drug use among young people in England in 2011” reported that 5% of 11 to 15-year-olds smoked regularly—that is, at least one cigarette a week. That sounds to me as though one child who could afford a packet of cigarettes was handing them around to their friends. That was half the number reported in 2001 and it compared favourably with the 6% who said that they had taken drugs in the past month.
There are better solutions to reduce the number of young people who take up smoking. Such smoking is at an all-time low of 5%, but we need to do more. We must not underestimate the influence of fashion and trends on young people, and if smoking becomes the in thing again, that percentage could rise.
Jake Berry
On the question of smoking becoming fashionable again, what is my hon. Friend’s view on recent concerns about electronic cigarettes? Of course, they are not covered by the 2007 legislation and they can be smoked indoors in bars, clubs, pubs and restaurants. Recently, e-cigarette fluid has been marketed in champagne, vodka and bubblegum flavours. Is she concerned about that?
Dame Angela Watkinson
I must confess that I have tried e-cigarettes. I tried an apple-flavoured one, and it was quite an attractive, comforting thing to do.
I was a co-signatory to the open letter from my hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) that highlighted the dangers posed by plain packaging to jobs, businesses, tax revenue and the legal trade due to increased smuggling and counterfeiting. Plain packaging would make smuggling easier and cheaper, and such products could be manufactured without regulation or quality control—I am told that some contain quite noxious additives. That situation could only exacerbate the associated criminality and revenue loss.
Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs estimates that in my constituency of Hornchurch and Upminster, and those of other hon. Members, up to one in six cigarettes and 48% of hand-rolling tobacco is already illegal, costing the Exchequer up to £3 billion a year. If plain packaging were introduced, those figures would undoubtedly rise.
Plain packaging would also have a negative impact on small convenience stores. The display ban that is already in place in large stores will cover small shops in 2015. Most customers make additional purchases when buying their cigarettes and that custom is essential to the viability of small shops. I was in my local newsagent recently, standing behind somebody who was buying a packet of cigarettes. There was a warning on it in big, bold letters to the effect that smoking can kill. One could not possibly miss it, so that person had made a conscious choice to disregard the warning on the packet.
Plain packaging would also have a devastating effect on the supply chain for the tobacco sector, particularly as regards the design and production of branded packaging. That would stifle innovation, development and competition. It would be likely that lobby groups would continue to campaign for other product groups, such as alcohol or certain foods, to be subject to similar measures. That would be the thin end of the wedge, and it would pose a further threat to the design and packaging sectors and to the freedom of customers to make informed choices.
The Government are already investing significantly in anti-smoking measures. Anyone who wants to stop can get smoking cessation courses free of charge. We have television adverts and hoardings on the street, and there cannot be anybody in the country who does not know the health risks of smoking. People make a choice about whether to do it. As far as children are concerned, the principal responsibility lies with their parents, who should know how much money their children have to spend—a packet of cigarettes is very expensive—and how they spend it unsupervised.
Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) on securing this important debate. Like him, I am an officer of the all-party group on smoking and health, and I also believe that tobacco control transcends the usual party differences. In my years in the House, that has certainly been the case for anti-tobacco policy.
Members will know that back in 2006 the previous Labour Government conceded a free vote on ending smoking in enclosed public places. The vote was won by a majority of more than 200, which showed that the proposal had strong support. The Government might want to find a similar means of getting themselves out of their awkward position, as they have been accused of being in bed with the tobacco industry because they have blocked the introduction of standardised packaging. The Children and Families Bill, which is now in Committee in the other place, might present such an opportunity.
The hon. Member for Harrow East rightly drew our attention to the fact that most smokers start their lethal addiction when they are children and that, for many years, the tobacco industry has advertised and marketed its products to make them as attractive to young people as possible. We all know that eight out of 10 smokers start by the age of 19 and that more than 207,000 11 to 15-year-olds become smokers each year. One in two of them, if they remain smokers, will die a premature death. In this country, in the region of 100,000 premature deaths a year are caused by the habit of smoking.
I am sorry that the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr Evans) is no longer in the Chamber. He made the argument that the 12 million smokers in this country were all adults. Of course, most of them are adults—that is absolutely true—but at what age did they start smoking? Statistics on the number of people who start smoking at the age of 21 are insignificant. I started smoking years before I could legally buy cigarettes. I was smoking at the age of 12, and I stopped at the age of 24. The vast majority of people I was at secondary school with smoked. We were just trying to emulate other people. I also came from a poor, working-class family, and in theory there was not the money to buy cigarettes, but we used to find it. I say to the hon. Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Dame Angela Watkinson) that if we look at the incidence of smoking now, social classes 4 and 5 have the majority of smokers and of premature deaths.
The importance of packaging is well understood by the tobacco companies. They dodge the existing health warnings and packaging requirements with great skill and ingenuity. I draw the attention of the House to the packaging of Benson & Hedges Silver Slide. Benson & Hedges in this country is owned by Japan Tobacco International, one of the big four international companies. People slide the cigarettes out of the pack, so it is not the standard packaging that was around when I was smoking back in the 1950s and 1960s. The outside of the Silver Slide package looks pretty normal but, unlike most packs, it is opened by pressing the side opening where it says “Push and Slide”, which exposes a tray containing the cigarettes. Printed on the tray are the words:
“I owe my success to having listened respectfully to the very best advice, and then going away and doing the exact opposite”,
which is a quote from G. K. Chesterton. The initials B&H are highlighted for a little extra brand identity on the slide. I suggest that the design has the obvious purpose of reinforcing a key tobacco industry marketing message that has been used with success for many years, particularly to recruit young people to smoke and to discourage quitters. That message is pretty simple—smoking is cool and an act of rebellion, and it is adult and transgressive. The hon. Member for Harrow East rightly pointed out that that marketing strategy is set out clearly in the internal documents that were published as a result of the US master settlement agreement with the industry.
Alex Cunningham
Is my right hon. Friend aware of the advertising in America for Vogue cigarettes, which says:
“The Vogue cigarette style was based on 1950s couture. The cigarettes that are preferred by women from across the world. Their lengthened appearance is an attribute of their femininity”?
Does he think that that is another example of the industry aiming to glamorise smoking?
Mr Barron
It is indeed. The packages themselves are there to attract young women. I have an empty packet in my office that demonstrates exactly that. The idea that packaging is not used to sell products or advertise them effectively is nonsense. The Silver Slide design is intended deliberately to undercut the health warnings that the law now requires on each packet.
The hon. Member for Ribble Valley talked about adverts and bill posters, and said that he could only understand the part at the bottom. When I introduced a private Member’s Bill in 1994 to get rid of tobacco advertising and promotion, it was pretty clear that most of the adverts on billboards were not understood by some people. They were deliberately designed for the inquiring mind. There would be a picture of a piece of silk with a cut halfway down the middle. The advert did not say Silk Cut cigarettes; it did not have to. However, who are the ones with inquiring minds? They are young people. Tobacco companies did that deliberately for many years, and the G. K. Chesterton quote is to get young people to say that they can take this on, and that they are not bothered about what people say.
In Australia, it has been decided that there should be no branding on tobacco packaging other than the product name shown in a standard font, size and colour. No other trade marks, logos, colour schemes and graphics are permitted. Colours and graphics have been selling cigarettes in this country for decades. In Australia, cigarette packs should not carry attractive designs and should therefore come in standard shape, size and colours, and the colours should be as unattractive as possible. There should be prominent health warnings front and back, in pictures as well as writing, and there should be a phone number and web address on every pack to help smokers to access quit services.
There are 100,000 premature deaths a year from tobacco smoking in this country. If those deaths had been caused by anything else in the 30 years that I have been in Parliament, this House would have been sitting 24 hours a day, seven days a week, until we could find a way to stop it. It is no good the Government saying that they will wait. We know what tobacco marketing has been like for decades. We have stopped most of it, and we should stop this advertising at the point of use as well.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
In an area such as Salford, 1,000 young people—the figure was 1,100 in Barnsley—will start to smoke this year. If I am called to make a speech, I will talk about that. Ten months, a year or 18 months of delay will cause 1,000 or 1,500 young people in an area such as mine to start smoking, and that is a tragedy.
Mr Barron
And another 207,000 nationally will start this habit a year.
One might ask why people buy a packet of cigarettes when it has a warning on it, but this is an addiction. All sorts of addictions sadly roll over common sense, and tobacco is no different. Stopping young people starting is crucial, and that is working. Smoking rates for young children are diminishing now, as are rates for adults, partly as a result of taxation and partly because we are stopping tobacco companies promoting cigarettes.
There are no figures to show that counterfeiting is more likely with plain packaging. Earlier this year, the Japanese company came to the House and told us that there would be more counterfeiting, but there is no evidence of that. It showed us—I have one in my pocket —a counterfeit packet. It looks like any other Benson & Hedges packet, so counterfeiting happens now. Standard packaging could include features to protect against counterfeiting, and it is for the House to regulate to introduce them. Hon. Members should not use the arguments that have been sold by the tobacco companies year after year. When it was found that tobacco related to massive numbers of deaths, the companies were still questioning that decades after the event—they still do now. They use this House to do it on occasions and, I have to say, it is wrong. When there are 100,000 premature deaths a year, we as legislators have some responsibility to alleviate the problem. I know that smoking is addictive and it is difficult for people to stop.
Dame Angela Watkinson
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that no young child can become addicted to cigarettes unless their parents provide them with the money to buy them?
Mr Barron
My father used to provide me with cigarettes; the only thing was that he did not know about it. I used to go in his packet of Woodbines and take one out, and he did not count them very often. That was how I started smoking on the street at a very early age. If we put the price up, of course it will reduce the consumption of cigarettes, but we need to stop young people starting.
Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD)
I rise as chair of the all-party parliamentary group on smoking and health. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), a fellow officer of the all-party group, on securing this important debate, which is an important opportunity for the House to continue to put pressure on the Government to move on this issue. I am a co-sponsor of the debate. It should come as no surprise that the APPG strongly supports effective action to reduce the harm that is caused by tobacco. I welcome the contributions from the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham), my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East and the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis), all of whom set out compellingly the piles of evidence that show the effectiveness of standardised packaging as a further aid to tobacco control and reduction of the harm that tobacco does. That surely has to be a key goal of public health policy in this country.
Reducing the number of people dying from preventable disease and of people living with chronic disease has to be a key part of what this debate is all about. How do we address that? By tackling risk factors—in this case, the risky behaviour of taking up smoking in the first place. A variety of interventions can make a difference. In this country over the past few years, parliamentary action and parliamentary pressure have persuaded Governments to do something. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron) on his initiative when he was Chair of the Health Select Committee to enable the Labour Government to bring in via a free vote the ban on smoking in enclosed public places.
No Government have a particularly good record of leadership in this area. Most Governments tend to have to be led by this place. That is why we are having this debate today, and I hope the Government will take their lead from this House and the other place, because both Houses have a cross-party unity of purpose in addressing these issues. We have seen that progress over the years.
Over the past 15 years the combination of measures has made a difference. Smoking prevalence has fallen among adults by a quarter and among children by as much as half. More clearly remains to be done, as the debate so far has demonstrated. Smoking is still a major cause of preventable disease and death. It far outweighs the next six major causes. When it comes to public health and to children and young people, we have a special duty, over and above that which we owe to all our fellow citizens. That duty is clear: we should act. Above all, standardised packaging is about protecting children and young people, as has been said in this debate.
Big tobacco must attract children. Why? Because its product kills 100,000 of its customers every year in this country, and it needs to replace those dead customers. The evidence is clear. Smoking is a childhood addiction, not an adult choice. We need to understand that. Some 40% of smokers are addicted by the age of 16, and two thirds are addicted by the age of 18. Two hundred thousand children take up smoking every year and about 530 of them do so in my borough, the London borough of Sutton. Very few people start smoking over the age of 20, as we have heard.
The focus on the recruitment of children has been admitted by big tobacco. The tobacco industry knows how sensitive children and young people are to brands of all sorts. Removing the brightly coloured packaging has been shown to make a difference. It has made those products less attractive to children.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
The right hon. Gentleman rightly emphasises addiction, but have we not heard, even in this debate, that this is addiction marketed as freedom?
Paul Burstow
Absolutely, and that is the most pernicious part of it. It is addiction posing as freedom of choice, whereas once they are addicted, people have lost their freedom of choice, and it is very hard to step back from that.
Jake Berry
On the subject of free choice, I am interested to hear that three-quarters of smokers take up smoking between the ages of 16 and 18. If people are not capable of exercising free choice at the age of 16, why does the right hon. Gentleman think it right that the Lib Dems have a policy of reducing the voting age to 16?
Paul Burstow
To make sure that the record is clear, I said that two thirds of smokers are addicted by the age of 18. It is entirely right that we have the debate on the voting age. The House has voted on the matter and has supported the idea that we should allow people to exercise a democratic choice at the age of 16, but that is not today’s debate. Although I would hope that voting was an addictive behaviour, it is not, and getting people to vote at an earlier age is more likely to get the participation rate up. That is why I support it and why my party does as well.
Let me move on to another point about what the industry has as its agenda. Imperial Tobacco’s global brand director, Geoff Good, has said that package redesign has been worth
“over £60 million in additional turnover and a significant profit improvement. . .the UK had become a dark market, the pack design was the only part of the mix that was changed, and therefore we knew the cause and effect.”
That was in 2006. Tobacco advertising is already banned in the UK. The branding and brightly coloured packaging clearly meet the legal definition already in existence. They are a form of commercial communication with the aim or direct or indirect effect of promoting a tobacco product. In the words of Imperial Tobacco’s global brand director, Geoff Good,
“pack design was the only part of the mix that was changed”.
The cause and effect are clear. Package-based advertising should be banned.
In earlier contributions to the debate, reference was made to some types of packaging. One example was Vogue cigarettes. The packet looks like a lipstick container or a perfume product. It is intended to convey the glamour of smoking, about which the hon. Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Dame Angela Watkinson) spoke earlier.
I have a question for the Minister, which she might be able to address in her contribution later. It concerns the World Health Organisation’s framework convention on tobacco control. I understand that the UK plans to sign the protocol on the elimination of illicit trade in tobacco products. The protocol makes it clear that arrangements for tracking and tracing tobacco products should be independent of the tobacco industry. In other words, the industry should not be allowed to self-police. Does the Minister agree that the EU draft revision of the EU tobacco products directive should give full effect to the World Health Organisation protocol to ensure independence of action for our enforcement agencies in dealing with the illicit trade?
I welcome the Minister’s remark at Health questions a week ago that she was examining the issue “very carefully”. However, having already considered the evidence, her predecessor made it clear in the House and elsewhere that she supports the measure, as does my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department of Health. Why do we still have to wait for the Australian scheme to be tested further? We know after the first 11 months that it has been bedding in well. As we have heard already, it is having a material effect on consumer behaviour. Consumers are reporting that they think the same product tastes different. The same product is less attractive. Standardised packaging is affecting behaviour, which is a key element of this drive.
There is clear and sustained public support for standardised packaging. National polls show that two thirds of the public want to see the Government act on this agenda. When my local paper, the Sutton Guardian, ran a poll recently, it found that 80% of those who took part in that poll backed standardised packaging. Other nations in the United Kingdom are choosing to act. Other nations in Europe are choosing to act. The evidence is mounting, as is the death toll and as is the recruitment of children and young people to this pernicious habit. May we now see action? May we have something that children and young people deserve—this Government and this Parliament acting to protect them from the harm of smoking? Standardisation of packaging is the next step in effective tobacco control and I hope the Government will take that step soon.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham), my right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron) and the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) on securing the debate on this important subject. We need to keep focusing on the issue because it has a great impact on the health of our constituents and most of all on the children and young people in our constituencies.
As an MP representing Salford, I want to speak today because, as others have said about their constituencies, smoking, smoking-related deaths and lung cancer rates are all too high in Salford. One in four of the population in Salford smoke, which is higher than the national average of one in five people in England as a whole. As a consequence, we have much higher rates of smoking-related death in Salford and a higher incidence of lung cancer, with 175 new cases of lung cancer diagnosed each year. The right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam said that it was estimated that 530 children in his borough would start smoking this year. In Salford, sadly, the figure is nearly 1,000—almost double.
As we have heard in the debate, so many smokers— estimated at eight out of 10—start by the age of 19 and one in two of those young people will die of smoking-related diseases if they become long-term smokers. We know and we should continue to reflect upon the fact that this habit is the biggest cause of premature death in the UK and long-term smokers have a life expectancy that is 10 years shorter than non-smokers.
There has been some debate about the early evidence from Australia on the introduction of plain packaging. It suggests to me that branded cigarette boxes influence the perception of smoking among young people, and that plain packaging can help in the fight against starting smoking. That is why the issue is important and it is largely what I shall speak about here. As the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam said, 70% of those interviewed in a study in Australia who smoked from plain packets said that they thought the cigarettes were “less satisfying”. That is an important finding. They rated quitting as a higher priority than those who continued to smoke from a branded pack did.
A separate study found that 80% of children interviewed rated plain cigarette packs as “uncool”. Members who have spoken so far have rightly focused on how much packaging influences that perception of cool, because brands are very important to young people. Those are powerful findings from Australia.
I believe that there is weight behind the argument that cigarette packaging is the last legal form of tobacco advertising and that it has an influence on young people’s perception of smoking. That in itself is why we should take action to introduce plain packaging.
In the excellent Westminster Hall debate on 3 September —we have already touched on this, but it is worth reflecting on—the then Health Minister, the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), talked about the power of packaging. She said:
“I have never forgotten the first time that I bought a packet of cigarettes.”
She deliberately chose a particular brand
“because they were green, gorgeous and a symbol of glamour.”
She said:
“I distinctly remember the power of that package. It was the opening of the cellophane and the gold and the silver that was so powerfully important to many people who, as youngsters, took up smoking.”—[Official Report, 3 September 2013; Vol. 567, c. 23WH.]
That was a very honest admission from a Health Minister, but she still went on to adopt the “wait and see” approach that we are getting from the Government. The health of our young people does not have time for wait and see.
In the previous Parliament we introduced a ban on smoking in public places, and I was very pleased to be a Member of this House when we voted for that. I visited Copenhagen earlier this year and found myself in public places where people were lighting up cigarettes. I was surprised, because it is easy to forget how unpleasant it is to be in a public place where people are smoking and to come home with clothes and hair reeking of smoke. It is very unfamiliar to us now. Much worse, of course, are the health impacts for the people in those places who do not want to inhale smoke.
My hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) outlined the steps that have already been taken to make smoking less attractive. Tobacco advertising has been banned from TV, billboards and sports such as Formula 1. Surely the next step is to tackle the advertising on the packaging.
In 1950 the figures were much higher: around 80% of men and 40% of women smoked. Amazingly, cigarette advertising at the time used images of doctors and celebrities to promote the different brands. One brand even used images of Santa Claus smoking—imagine that in the run-up to Christmas—to prove that it was easy on the throat. In the Westminster Hall debate my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) told me about a cigarette pack currently being sold—we have heard today from the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam about some of the packs available—and described it as
“a lovely 1950s retro pack, which opens up to show nice pink cigarettes inside”—[Official Report, 3 September 2013; Vol. 567, c. 18WH.]
Those packs are targeted at young teenage girls, and that is very cynical advertising. As I have said, the early evidence suggests that the attractiveness of the brand does have an impact, especially on young people, who are so impressionable. We know that the colour pink is being used because it is attractive to young teenage girls.
Early reports suggest that plain packaging can make such a big difference by changing perceptions of smoking. That is important for our children. A review commissioned by the Department of Health and the Public Health Research Consortium showed that standardised packaging was less attractive, more effective in conveying messages about the health implications of smoking and more likely to reduce the mistaken belief that some brands are safer than others, the old idea that flavourings or menthol make it less damaging, which is also untrue. All the evidence suggests that plain tobacco packaging greatly reduces the attractiveness of cigarettes for children, and Australia’s stance is supported by the World Health Organisation.
I want briefly to congratulate stop smoking services in Salford, particularly on their programmes focused on reducing smoking in families with children under 16. If children do not see their parents smoking, they are less likely to start smoking themselves. Many of our programmes in Salford are targeted at those families.
All the tobacco advertising I have talked about is pernicious. However it is done, whether with slim packages, colouring or making it look like perfume, it focuses on young people, and particularly young women who want to remain slim. It is almost unbelievable that tobacco companies used to use Santa Claus and doctors to promote smoking and tried to persuade us that it was safe. I do not want to continue to see 1,000 young people in Salford start smoking each year. It is time we took the next important step to close down cigarette advertising by introducing plain packs. It is time to prevent our children from starting smoking. It is time the Government supported the amendment to the Children and Families Bill that will take that important step. Above all, it is time to reduce the large numbers of people affected by smoking-related illness and early death, both in Salford and across the country.
Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley). I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) on securing the debate and the other Members who went to the Backbench Business Committee to ensure that it took place. However, my comments will not be particularly supportive of my hon. Friend’s views on the issue. I look at the matter from the perspective of a member of the Public Accounts Committee, which recently produced a significant report on the impact of tobacco smuggling on the loss of tax revenue in the UK. Having seen the evidence, I came to the strong conclusion that the case for plain packaging is certainly unproven.
The hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South said that she wanted to ensure that 1,000 children in her constituency do not take up smoking. I wonder what the evidence is to suggest that those 1,000 children will not take up smoking simply because of a change in the product’s packaging. The right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron) explained that he started smoking by stealing cigarettes from his father. I wonder whether his father’s choice of brand had any significant impact on his decision to steal a single cigarette. When I was growing up in Caernarfon, when people wanted to smoke they went to a local post office to buy singles. I suspect that they gave no consideration whatsoever to the brand; the point was that they could buy cigarettes very cheaply, usually one at a time. It was an important development when that was made an illegal practice that would not be tolerated. However, it is still the case that the driver is the price, not the branding. That is what I want to talk about.
When the Public Accounts Committee researched the smuggling of tobacco products into the UK, some of the information that emerged from that work was shocking. For example, in the top 10 recognised consumer brands of cigarettes in this country there are often two or three that are illicit and that it is illegal to supply in this country—for example Jin Ling, Richman and Raquel. Strictly speaking, those brands should not be available and so they would not be affected by legislation on plain packaging, yet independent consumer surveys show that those brands, despite being illicit and illegal, are recognised by the public.
The question we must ask, therefore, is why and how those brands are gaining a foothold in this country. Clearly it is unacceptable that they are smuggled into the country, and at such a rate that they are now recognised consumer brands. The key point we must recognise is that the driver for the sale of those products is not the branding or the so-called attractive packaging; it is the price. A packet of 20 cigarettes costs between £7.50 and £8. My son, who is lucky enough to have a paper round, would have to spend half his weekly wage if he decided to buy a packet of cigarettes legally, yet he could go out to any estate or high street in my constituency and, if he was switched on, find a packet of illicit tobacco for between £2 and £2.50.
I therefore argue that the driver encouraging young people to start smoking is more likely to be the price than the branding. If a young person can buy a packet of 20 cigarettes for 15% or 20% of their weekly paper round wage, they would be more tempted to do so than if they could buy it for 50% of their wage. By concentrating on plain packaging, we are ignoring an important fact: price is a driver for the sale of these products.
Time and again hon. Members have argued that plain packaging is about protecting young people, yet in university towns the young people often smoke roll-your-owns. The figure for roll-your-own tobacco is absolutely atrocious. In my constituency, which has no higher education facility, 48% of loose-leaf tobacco will be smuggled and illicit. The vast majority will not be recognised UK brands. In any town with a university or further education college, the percentage of illegal and smuggled loose-leaf tobacco will be even higher. What is the driver? What is persuading young people to buy tobacco products that are not officially marketed in the United Kingdom? The answer, I argue, is price.
Barbara Keeley
The hon. Gentleman seems to be arguing that people who are already addicted, such as older students, will smoke anything, but that is not surprising. We have repeatedly argued that young people get addicted in their early teens, and his arguments do not negate that.
Guto Bebb
The hon. Lady completely misrepresents my view. I said clearly at the outset that the temptation for young people is much enhanced if the product is affordable, and I think she fully understood my point.
It is important to recognise the problem of illicit and smuggled products because evidence—yes, to be tested and argued about—has been presented to suggest that plain packaging will actually make it easier for these products to be made available. I am fully aware that there are arguments on both sides. However, what is being said in this debate is, in effect, that the Government’s decision to wait to look at the evidence from Australia somehow indicates that they are in league with the tobacco companies. I find that quite distasteful.
I genuinely approach this debate from the point of view that I would like the number of people who smoke to be reduced—to nothing, I hope. I have never smoked, and if any of my children smoked I would be absolutely furious. Indeed, I lost my father to lung cancer at the young age of 63. My children never saw their grandfather simply because of his smoking. If the evidence was clear that plain packaging would be the answer, I would be supportive. I find it very odd that Members are saying that looking at the evidence is somehow condemning people to die. That is emotional and unacceptable language.
When Populus recently surveyed a number of police officers about whether they thought that plain packaging would be helpful, 86% of them clearly stated that they thought it would make it easier for illicit tobacco products to be supplied and that those products would be targeted at young people who could afford them. Sixty-eight per cent. of the police officers thought that plain packaging would lead to an increase in the size of the black economy in relation to tobacco products. A full 62% thought that an increase in cheap tobacco products would result in an increase in the use of tobacco products by children. Those are very interesting and important findings from a poll of police officers. Are their views correct? We need to look at the evidence and consider very carefully whether it supports them.
Guto Bebb
The right hon. Gentleman should perhaps read the report by the Public Accounts Committee, which presented evidence that there has been an uplift since 2010-11. I thought that the whole point of this Chamber was to debate on the basis of the facts, and that we liked evidence to be up to date. If he wants to quote evidence from 2010-11, that is absolutely fine, but I refer him to the PAC report, which has updated figures. It is interesting that he would probably be very supportive of today’s PAC report on universal credit, but when the facts do not suit him he seems to ignore them.
The key thing we need to remember is that time and again this place has legislated in haste. There is a significant question mark over both sides of the debate. What the Government have said is very simple: let us see the evidence and consider it. If the evidence from Australia and other countries that decide to go down this route proves that there has been a reduction in the use of tobacco products, a reduction in illicit tobacco being taken into the country, a fall in the availability of illicit products, and a fall in the number of smuggled products, it would be worth taking the issue extremely seriously and moving to legislate. However, the argument advanced by some hon. Members is about their prejudice rather than the facts. We should congratulate the Government on being willing to wait and legislate correctly rather than acting in haste and possibly contributing to and supporting the behaviour of people who are making tobacco products available to young people not at £7.50 or £8 but at £2.50 or less.
We should consider very carefully what is tempting young people to take up smoking. I am very clearly of the view that the temptation is not necessarily branding but more likely to be price. Labour Members might like to have a good feeling about doing something in this place to help young people, but they should do it on the basis of facts, not their ill-informed opinions.
Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)
I am delighted to have a chance to speak in this Back-Bench debate, and I add my congratulations to the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) on securing it. I will make a few brief comments because many issues that I would have mentioned have already been covered by other right hon. and hon. Members.
I absolutely support the principle of standardised packaging of tobacco. I believe that it should have been introduced a long time ago and that it should have had a higher priority than a ban on point-of-sale displays. That is because introducing standardised packaging would have resulted in the end of displays of cigarettes, as the adverts that those displays created would no longer be created by standardised packets.
The decision not to proceed with standardised packaging has rightly been criticised. Questions about whether advisers have unduly influenced senior Conservative politicians are perfectly legitimate and do not seem to have been properly addressed. However, equally disturbing are the interventions by the unions, with bogus claims that standardised packaging will result in significant job losses in the packaging industry. I would have hoped that Labour Members would be just as vocal in condemning those interventions as they have been in questioning the influence of Conservative party advisers, but sadly not.
The Government’s argument for delaying a decision on standardised packaging was based on a perceived lack of empirical evidence that it would discourage young people from taking up smoking. I would have thought the fact that the tobacco industry has spent hundreds of thousands of pounds, and more, in trying to lobby against standardised packaging would be evidence enough. Why would it spend so much money on trying to stop something happening if it was not going to have an impact on levels of smoking?
If that is not evidence enough, may I bring to the Minister’s attention early-day motion 559, in my name, which highlights research by the British Heart Foundation into standardised packaging for cigarettes in Australia? It interviewed 2,500 young people and found that more Australian teenagers than UK teenagers had been discouraged from taking up smoking, owing to the standardised packaging. Fifty-nine per cent. of Australian teenagers said that standardised packaging deters them from smoking, and 77% of UK teenagers and 66% of Australian teenagers support it. If that is still not enough for the Minister, perhaps she could look at the findings of the study by Cancer Council Victoria, which showed that when young people view packs stripped of colours and logos, they believe that the cigarettes are lower quality, will taste worse and are less appealing.
In my opinion, the evidence is clear: standardised packaging does discourage young people from taking up smoking, and we should introduce it without delay. However, may I suggest to the Minister that we go one step further? A lot of research was carried out to work out the most unappealing colour scheme for the packaging. I think we should extend this to the cigarettes themselves, and as well as having grotty green-brown packets, we should have grotty green-brown cigarettes.
Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)
A lot of the points I was going to make have already been made, but I will start by saying that I absolutely support anything that is proven to reduce smoking. On that evidence-based test, I am delighted to congratulate the schools in my constituency of Rossendale and Darwen that have made fantastic progress on reducing the number of young people who take up smoking. Nationally, there is a good-news story to tell about the fall in the number of people who smoke and who take up smoking. The number is less than 20% of adults for the first time since records began, and there have been continued falls in the number of young people ever taking up smoking.
Many of us have had experience of cancer. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), whom I congratulate on securing this debate, have spoken movingly about their own family experience with cancer. It is a horrendous disease and that is why I am growing a moustache for Movember.
I think that lots of people who smoke are realistic about the risks. There cannot be many of them who do not know that smoking has a direct link to cancer and that it ends lives more quickly than may otherwise be the case. Some 12 million people still exercise their free choice to smoke cigarettes, however.
Many of the Members who are in favour of plain packaging have said that it will be a next step, but what they really mean is that it will be the next step on the road to banning smoking. Let us not beat about the tobacco bush: if people want to ban smoking—a legitimate habit of 12 million people in this country—let us have a debate about it. Some have spoken about taking incremental steps towards banning smoking in cars. I was tempted to intervene on the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) to ask how such a ban could be enforced, but I invite him to tell me now.
Alex Cunningham
Nobody wanted to wear seat belts when legislation was introduced, but the vast majority of people started to do so. I think that about 90% now do so. I believe that people would adhere to a law if we introduced it. If not, we would need just a few cases in court and I am sure it would then start to happen.
Jake Berry
I guess that the reason why people wear seat belts is that it is a criminal offence not to do so. If the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that smoking in cars should be made a criminal offence, that just reinforces my point about the desire of certain people on the other side of the debate to ban smoking. If that is what people want, we should have an active debate about it and give people who smoke legitimately an opportunity to have their say.
During this Parliament alone, the Government have increased NHS funding by £12 billion, given people access to the cancer drug fund and protected public spending with regard to local authority public health budgets. That is good progress and I am proud to be part of a Government delivering it. Limits on the display of tobacco products have also recently been introduced in larger stores. Anyone who has been to a supermarket recently will have seen the white signs that slide backwards and forwards to disguise tobacco products, and they will be introduced in smaller retailers in 2015. I support that and think it is a good thing.
The ban on vending machines in pubs is particularly good. I started smoking by buying cigarettes by the men’s loo in a pub in Liverpool, where I was brought up. It is the easiest way to buy cigarettes under age, so I am delighted with and support the ban. The way in which the Government have continued to increase the tax on cigarettes has also been good. I think that making them more expensive discourages people from taking up smoking. I support all that action, but such action must be based on benefits.
Mr Barron
I started on my anti-tobacco crusade 20 years ago this year when I promoted a private Member’s Bill. In all that time, the only person I have heard say that if tobacco was discovered now it would be banned was the then Conservative Secretary of State for Health, who now sits in the other place. As far as I know, it has never been part of the anti-tobacco campaign in this country to say that we want to ban people from smoking. What we want to do is prevent them from starting and save lives.
Jake Berry
I think it is right to say that if tobacco was discovered today it probably would be banned. I also think that if alcohol was discovered today it probably would be banned. That does not mean that we should seek to do so.
I am very pleased with the progress the Government have made. The evidence shows that we have reduced to a record low the number of people who smoke, but there are still things left on the to-do list. First and foremost, we need to look at the evidence from Australia. If it demonstrates that plain packaging has reduced the amount that people smoke, we should take it up and I would not oppose it. I do not accept, however, that that has yet been proven. Part of being in this House, in government or in opposition is to have an evidence-based debate about outcomes. I do not think that we have the evidence or that the outcome will be a reduction in the amount that people smoke. We also do not yet know the impact of disguising packages in supermarkets, which may have the effect we seek without increasing the regulation on the tobacco industry.
We need much more rigorous enforcement against under-age sales. It is illegal to buy cigarettes under the age of 18. People under that age can have consensual sex and they can go to Afghanistan to fight in the Army, and the Opposition and the Liberal Democrats think that they should have the right to vote, but they are not allowed to buy cigarettes. We should have much more rigorous enforcement of the existing laws against selling cigarettes to under-18s, rather than rush to introduce new laws on plain packaging and banning smoking in cars.
Jake Berry
No, I will not.
The European Union has recently legislated on banning 10-cigarette packs and menthol cigarettes. I do not support the ban of 10-cigarette packs. People who smoke often purchase a packet of 10 cigarettes as a way of rationing themselves, and people who are trying to cut down on smoking will also buy them. I understand that this is about increasing the price of the first packet of cigarettes that someone buys, but making people buy 20 cigarettes at a time will increase the amount they smoke and encourage them to smoke more. That will be the unintended consequence of what is probably a well-intended piece of EU legislation and I am disappointed that the Government supported it.
Legislation banning menthol cigarettes also went through the European Parliament just a few weeks ago. I do not understand why the hundreds of thousands—millions even—of people in this country who smoke menthol cigarettes should have them taken away from them. People have to be able to make their own decisions. If they want to smoke normal or menthol cigarettes, they should be free to do so.
This House also needs to give much more attention to legislation with regard to electronic cigarettes. I do not smoke normal cigarettes. Having moved on to electronic cigarettes as a way of giving up, I know that they can be a hugely positive medicinal aid if someone is desperate to give up smoking. To talk about cigarettes as they are today is to talk about old technology. Within the next year or 18 months, in the United States of America more fluid for electronic cigarettes is likely to be sold than traditional cigarettes. It is a large, unregulated industry. We need to get a handle on it and an overview of it and scrutinise its potential benefits or, indeed, dangers. We need to start considering legislation with regard to electronic cigarettes and try to prevent young people from taking them up.
I know from experience in my local pub, the Robin Hood in Helmshore in my constituency, that more people are starting to smoke electronic cigarettes because they can do so while standing at the bar. Young people are starting to smoke them because they can get champagne, truffle, cherry and bubble gum flavours. We need to debate this important development in order to have some sort of control and to protect young people from, to be frank, the inappropriate glamorisation of the electronic cigarette.
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
This is the first time I have had the privilege of speaking with you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I look forward to it.
I thank the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) for seeking this debate, the co-sponsors from all parties and the Backbench Business Committee for making it possible. It has been a very good debate, with many thoughtful and powerful contributions and, I think, a large degree of consensus. There is a clear reason for that consensus. In the final analysis, this is a debate about children. Adults do not take up smoking; children do. Despite hon. Members having referred to a drop in the take-up of smoking, more than 200,000 children still take up smoking every year. Eight out of 10 smokers start by the age of 19. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron) said, there are few new smokers over the age of 21. In my patch, there are 460 regular smokers across Liverpool who have not yet turned 15. As the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) said, we are talking about a childhood addiction, not an adult choice.
We know that about half of those children—half of all regular smokers—will eventually be killed by their addiction. Contrary to the presentation by the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr Evans), who I am sorry to see is not in his place, tobacco is different from other products, because if it is used properly, as instructed, it kills one in two of its users. It is the only product for which there is an international treaty, the World Health Organisation’s framework convention on tobacco control, precisely because it is not like any other product and has to be treated differently.
Smoking remains by far the largest preventable cause of cancer. As my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) said, more than 100,000 people die across the UK from smoking-related diseases every year. In Liverpool, 346 deaths per 100,000 are attributable to smoking, whereas the national average is 201 deaths per 100,000. The hon. Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry) spoke about NHS spending on the cancer drugs fund.
The question that we should be asking ourselves is whether we are doing everything we can to discourage children from starting to smoke in the first place. Contrary to what the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) said, I make no apology for asking the emotive questions. Are we doing all that we can to protect our young people? Have we exhausted every measure at our disposal? With that in mind, I want to cover three broad themes: first, why packaging matters so greatly; secondly, why the arguments against standardised packaging do not stand up to close scrutiny; and thirdly, why we cannot afford to wait.
I echo what was said by the hon. Member for Harrow East, my hon. Friends the Members for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) and for Barnsley Central and my right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley about the part that packaging plays in encouraging young people to smoke. It is widely accepted that in the years since the last Labour Government banned tobacco advertising in 2002, the tobacco industry has developed far more sophisticated ways of using packaging to entice people to smoke.
We have all seen what cigarette and tobacco packaging looks like in Britain today, with its bright colours, shiny veneers and slimmed-down packets. We have heard about the boxes shaped like perfume bottles and lipsticks, with the glamorous slogans to match. One slogan that struck me was:
“Indulgence—change the taste to suit your mood”.
Such novelty packets appeal to young people, because that is exactly what they are designed to do. Academics at the university of Stirling tested that by surveying more than 1,000 children for a study that was published in the British Medical Journal a few weeks ago. They found that the children were overwhelmingly more attracted to the packets with such designs.
Dame Angela Watkinson
The hon. Lady has spoken about children starting to smoke. Does she agree that the main responsibility lies with their parents, because the money has to come from somewhere? If it does not come from their parents, where does it come from?
Luciana Berger
That point has been made by other hon. Members in this debate. I remember from when I was a young person that children do not get their money only from their parents and that they do not necessarily buy the cigarettes themselves. Often, they see other people getting out their packs of cigarettes.
The children in the university of Stirling study who were shown a packet of Silk Cut cigarettes were found to be more than four times more likely to be susceptible to smoking. Those children had never smoked.
It is the packaging that entices children. If we want to discourage children from ever starting to smoke, we need to question whether that is an acceptable way to market a product that is highly addictive, seriously harmful and clinically proven to kill. Smokers advertise tobacco brands to other people every time they take out their pack to smoke. The packets should not be glitzy adverts, but should carry strong and unambiguous health warnings about the dangers of smoking. We should not allow those warnings to be subverted by the design of the rest of the packet.
I will move on to my second theme. We have heard a few arguments against standardised packaging in this debate. We have also heard those arguments from the tobacco industry. I will deal with each of the arguments in turn. Much of the discussion has centred around evidence. Hon. Members have said that there is no evidence that standardised packaging will work. That is not true.
Last year, the systematic review by the Public Health Research Consortium, which was commissioned by the Department of Health, looked at all the evidence on standardised packaging. The findings are clear for everyone to see. It found that standardised packaging is less attractive, especially to young people. My hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) rightly pointed out that it takes away the cool factor. The review also found that standardised packaging makes health warnings more effective and combats the utter falsehood that some brands are safer than others. Those findings have been backed up by 17 studies that have been published since the systematic review. Government Members, including the hon. Member for Ribble Valley, have asked for evidence. We have the evidence.
A separate study that was published in the British Medical Journal in July looked at research from Australia soon after the introduction of standardised packaging. It found that smokers who used standardised packs were 66% more likely to think that their cigarettes were of a poorer quality, 70% more likely to say that they found them less satisfying, 81% more likely to have thought about quitting at least once a day in the previous week and much more likely to rate quitting as a higher priority in their lives than smokers who used branded packs. Not only are people less likely to take up smoking when presented with standardised packs; people who already smoke are more likely to think about quitting if the cigarettes that they buy come in standardised packaging.
Barbara Keeley
My hon. Friend is being very generous with her time. The hon. Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry) seemed to be quite satisfied with the Government’s action on this issue, although that is perhaps not surprising given the views that he has put forward in this debate. However, it is a fact that fewer people have quit smoking successfully and that fewer people have attempted to quit with NHS help over the last year. That is the first time since 2008-09 that those figures have fallen. I talked about quit services in Salford, but such services are now less successful and there must be a reason for that. Does my hon. Friend take that as seriously as I do?
Luciana Berger
I thank my hon. Friend for that important intervention. The figures that came out just the other week do show a drop in the number of people who are quitting smoking through NHS services. I am very concerned about that. As I said at the start of my contribution, 200,000 young people still take up smoking every year. That is exactly what we are seeking to address in this debate.
We have reflected a lot on the Australian experience. The former Australian Health Minister, Tanya Plibersek, reported that there was a
“flood of calls…in the days after the introduction of plain packaging accusing the Government of changing the taste of cigarettes.”
She went on to say:
“Of course there was no reformulation of the product. It was just that people being confronted with the ugly packaging made the psychological leap to disgusting taste.”
That is a significant point. Far from there being no evidence, there is a swathe of evidence.
The second claim raised during our debate is that standardised packaging would increase the trade in counterfeit cigarettes, or impact on the printing trade. Again, it is important to clarify that we are talking about standardised packaging. I have heard hon. Members use the term “plain packaging”, but we are not discussing that. I know I am not allowed to demonstrate this at the Dispatch Box, Madam Deputy Speaker, but standardised packaging is clearly printed; it is not a plain pack. Current packaging is already so easy to forge that covert markings enable enforcement officials to identify counterfeit cigarettes, and all key security features on existing packets would continue on standardised packets. Standardised packaging would make pictorial warnings more prominent and packaging harder to forge.
We heard in an important contribution that standardised packaging might lead to an increase in illicit trade, but that is simply not true. Andrew Leggett, deputy director for tobacco and alcohol strategy at Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, stated in oral evidence to the House of Lords European Union sub-Committee on Wednesday 24 July:
“There are a number of potential factors that weigh on counterfeit packaging”,
but that if standardised packaging was introduced, it was
“very doubtful that it would have a material effect.”
Jake Berry
I thank the hon. Lady for giving way to give her a chance to find her place. Does she acknowledge that the Government’s current policy on standardised or plain packaging is exactly the same as it was under the previous Government?
Luciana Berger
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention but more than three years have passed since that point. I am immensely proud of everything the Labour Government did through their tobacco strategy to reduce smoking. We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central about the many measures we introduced, but we must do more and go further, and in my concluding remarks I will say why I am disappointed with the Government’s current approach.
The third claim I want to counter is that the proposed changes to tobacco packaging are somehow a symptom of the nanny state. People should, of course, be allowed to make their own decisions, but we should not be standing by while industry sets honey traps and uses every means at its disposal to try to make those decisions for them. Nearly all new smokers are children, we are dealing with an addictive product that is clinically proven to kill, and smoking rates are higher among the most vulnerable groups in our society, particularly children in residential care. That is why today’s debate is so important.
I will conclude with my most important point, which is why we cannot afford to delay. The Minister has previously made it clear that the Government’s position is to wait and see. Her predecessor did the same, despite saying that she personally had been persuaded of the case for standardised packaging a few months previously. Just today, about 570 children across the country, none of them older than 15, will have their first cigarette, and approximately 71 will have done so while we have been debating this subject. If we wait and see, we will be standing idly by while hundreds of thousands of young people become victim to this deadly addiction.
The Opposition have made their position clear. If the Government wish to bring forward legislation to make standardised packaging a reality, they can count on our full support. That was our position before the Government changed their mind about this issue in July, and it is our position now. The Children and Families Bill is making its way through the other place. Labour has tabled an amendment to that Bill to introduce standardised packaging that will be debated in the coming weeks and voted on later this year. That simple measure would make a huge difference and is clearly supported by Members on all sides of the House. On behalf of those 71 children who have started smoking during this debate, and the 200,000 who will start every year, I urge the Minister and her Government colleagues to do the right thing and support our amendment. Let us save future generations from the perils of smoking.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Jane Ellison)
It is a genuine pleasure to respond to this Backbench Business Committee debate. I was a member of the Committee when my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), who initiated the debate, made a bid for it, although at the time I did not expect to respond to it, so I am in an interesting position. My hon. Friend made a great bid and we have had a terrific debate. I am grateful for the contributions from all hon. Members.
It is good that we are debating this important issue now. It has been helpful for me, as a new Minister, to hear arguments put so eloquently from across the House, and I will try to respond to some of the specific points made and to set out the Government’s position. I recognise that I will disappoint some people, but I will try to give a flavour of the Government’s current position and mention some of the important measures we are taking on tobacco control.
As many hon. Members have said, tobacco use remains one of our most significant public health challenges. For me as a new Minister, over the past month briefing after briefing and chart after chart have illustrated how important and what a significant public health challenge tobacco control is. There is no question in my mind that it is an essential aspect of any Government’s commitment to reduce the number of people dying prematurely in our country, and it is essential to promoting the health and well-being of children. A number of speakers have made the point that two thirds of smokers say they were regular smokers before they became adults. Many have spoken about adult choice, but we must recognise that by the time many people are addicted to smoking, they are already an adult and the addiction started as a child.
As hon. Members know, the Government have decided to wait before deciding on standardised packaging, but I do not recognise some of the time frames that people have ascribed to our position. I said that during Health questions, and I repeat that the policy remains under active consideration.
Interesting points have been raised in the debate, including about emerging evidence from Australia and studies carried out elsewhere, some of which the shadow Minister referred to in her contribution. Evidence and information are emerging all the time, and we want to spend more time assimilating that information and considering the likely effect that standardised packaging would have in this country. It is sensible and sound politics, particularly when dealing with a controversial area and a litigious industry, to show the stages by which we reach a decision, and I am sure that Members appreciate that we must be able to evidence that decision.
Alex Cunningham
If we are going to allow another half a million young people to take up smoking over the next three years while the Government decide whether to introduce plain packaging, what measures will the Minister take to hit the big numbers that we know plain packaging—or standardised packaging—could affect?
Jane Ellison
I am glad that the hon. Gentleman corrected himself, because it is important that we do not call it plain packaging—it is standardised. I hear his point and will move on to address some of the specific issues. Many people have cited such numbers.
Jane Ellison
The Government are following discussions in another place closely. Beyond that, I am not able to comment in this debate, but we are well aware of those discussions and Ministers are participating in them.
Australia introduced standardised packaging in December 2012, and New Zealand and the Republic of Ireland have committed to do that. In addition, other academic studies are emerging about the effects of that policy.
The UK has a long and respected tobacco control tradition internationally, although at times in this debate it has been possible to miss that point. Under successive Governments the UK’s record has been good, and we will continue to implement our existing plan to reduce smoking rates while keeping the policy of standardised packaging under active review. The tobacco control plan for England sets out national ambitions to reduce smoking prevalence among adults, young people and pregnant mothers. As the plan makes clear, to be effective, tobacco control needs comprehensive action on a range of fronts.
I will talk a little more about this in the context of devolved powers of public health to local government, but there is a slight danger that by focusing only on one aspect of tobacco control, we forget that there are other—and indeed more—things that we could do. Even if it was possible to say today that we would do this tomorrow, we would still be debating how we could effectively control tobacco and stop children taking up smoking. As various hon. Members have said, including the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron), this is an ongoing battle to protect children’s health.
Barbara Keeley
Is the Minister concerned about the fact that between April 2012 and March 2013, there was an 11% decline in the number of people setting a quit date? We are concerned about children, but if they are still watching their parents smoking, it is more likely that they will start. I hope that she is disturbed by the fact that the numbers setting out to quit are falling—it is the first fall since 2008-09. The Minister should address that point.
Jane Ellison
We are aware of that, but smoking in this country has dipped below 20% for the first time ever. I am aware of the hon. Lady’s concerns and I shall talk a bit about some of the public health campaigns and the new opportunities, not just for the Government but for local government and individual Members, on tobacco control policy.
As our plan makes clear, effective tobacco control needs comprehensive action on many fronts. The Government are taking action nationally. We are committed to completing the implementation of legislation to end the display of tobacco in shops. Since 2012, supermarkets can no longer openly display tobacco. In 2015 all shops will need to take tobacco off view. Tobacco can no longer be sold from vending machines, which has stopped many young people under 18 accessing smoking.
I do not want to downplay the importance of this policy—we are conscious that it could make an important contribution—but we can do many other things. The reasons why children, in particular, take up smoking are very complex, and are to do with family and social circumstances. One policy alone will not address that. Local authorities have a vital role to play, which is why we have given local government responsibility for public health backed by large ring-fenced budgets—more than £5.4 billion in the next two years. I encourage all hon. Members who have participated in today’s debate to ask tough questions of people locally. I hope that they are talking to their public health directors, health and wellbeing boards and clinical commissioning groups about where tobacco control sits in the armoury of local government. That is why this power has been devolved. The local insight and innovation made possible by that policy will help us to tackle tobacco use at a local level as well as through policies that the Government can put in place.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
I congratulate the Minister on her obvious grasp of the subject. She is right to say that this will be a continuing debate beyond the issue of standardised packaging. Does she agree, however, that an increasing welter of evidence suggests that standardised packaging would help in the fight against smoking, particularly among the young? Will she give an assurance that the Government will increase the urgency of their review of the situation, and especially of the growing evidence in favour of standardised packaging?
Jane Ellison
I can give my hon. Friend that commitment and I am giving this my urgent consideration. It is impossible to sit through a debate such as today’s, and hear the passion expressed by many hon. Members on both sides of the House, without going away, as the public health Minister, to give it one’s serious, urgent and active consideration.
I have laid out a little challenge to hon. Members to take this issue up at the local level. I appreciate that it is right that I should be held to account on this issue, but in the new world of devolved public health powers, I urge hon. Members to have those conversations with their health and wellbeing boards and with public health directors. In areas of the country where smoking prevalence among children is a difficult issue—some examples have been cited in the debate—our belief is that by devolving some of the power and, importantly, the ring-fenced budget to local authorities who know their communities best, they can begin to tackle the problem with great urgency and added innovation in a way that central Government cannot.
Public Health England has an important part to play. As a new, dedicated, professional public health service, it will be available to advise on local action to promote public health and encourage behaviour change to help people live healthier lives. It will put expert advice at the disposal of local authorities.
Alex Cunningham
The Minister has outlined some good ideas, but will she say whether she would support a free vote on this issue on the Floor of the House?
Jane Ellison
With respect, I am outlining these other aspects to underline the point that one policy is not sufficient to tackle this problem. There is a slight danger of believing that the approach is a silver bullet. It is an important policy that has been given serious consideration, and the case has been made for it, but we would still be debating how to stop children smoking, even if it were introduced.
Jane Ellison
I will move on as I have tried to respond to the hon. Gentleman’s point.
Our local stop smoking services are among the best in the world. The fact is that smokers trying to quit do better if they use them. Research has found that
“English stop smoking services have had an increasing impact in helping smokers to stop in their first 10 years of operation”—
although I hear the challenge that has been made on the recent drop—
“and have successfully reached disadvantaged groups.”
The latter are obviously particularly important from a public health point of view.
This year, Public Health England has launched a new dedicated youth marketing programme. This marketing strategy aims at discouraging a range of risk behaviours, including tobacco use, among our young people. In this financial year, that is worth more than £1.5 million.
Barbara Keeley
The Minister does not seem to be saying what the Government will do about the decline in quitting—the fact that stop smoking services are not reaching people to the extent that they should be. Does that concern her, and is she going to do something about it?
Jane Ellison
That is something that I will look at carefully, but I point out to the hon. Lady that obviously this issue now falls under the remit of Public Health England. It will be on my agenda for the next meeting with the chief executive, and I will write to her after I have had that discussion, if that would be helpful.
Jake Berry
Does the Minister think that there is any connection between a record low number of people smoking and relatively few people contacting the quitting helpline? Does she think that we might be down to the core of people who actually choose to smoke and do not want to give up?
Jane Ellison
I hope that my hon. Friend will forgive me, but after four weeks in this job, I do not know that. I am not prepared to speculate on such an important issue, but I am happy to come back to him with more detail when we have given it further consideration.
Through Public Health England, we will continue to run national marketing campaigns, such as the hard-hitting health harms “Mutation” campaign, in the new year. I am sure that no one who saw that can forget the images in the campaign, which reminded smokers about the physical damage caused by smoking. We have just finished Stoptober—we have now moved on to Movember—a new approach launched in 2012 challenging smokers to stop for 28 days, all at the same time. We know that that can be a key turning point if people want to quit for ever.
The Government will continue to play their part. To discourage smoking, we have some of the highest-priced tobacco in Europe and we will carry on with our high tax policy. That is coupled with an effective strategy, led by HMRC, to reduce the illicit tobacco trade, which has been mentioned in the debate. However, we must not forget the great progress that has been made. As I said, fewer than 20% of adults in England now smoke, compared with 39% in 1980. However, we want that number to fall, and there is no room for complacency.
On standardised packaging and illicit tobacco, some 21% of the UK’s cigarette market was illicit in 2000. Latest estimates from HMRC for 2012-13 suggest that that proportion has dropped to around 9%. Enforcement is having a real impact on illicit tobacco and we want to see the figure fall still further. The Government, working with other interested parties, are trying to drive down the size of the illicit tobacco market through improved enforcement and reducing opportunities for fraud. I am grateful to those hon. Members who have made the point that if we were to adopt standardised packaging, it would not mean plain packaging. Approaches such as anti-smuggling devices could be built into standardised packaging, if we choose to go down that route.
A few hon. Members were concerned about the possible impact of the policy on jobs. Obviously, the Government need to consider all aspects of the policy, including any impact on employment, alongside possible health benefits. Others made a point about small retailers, and some might have been present for a recent late-night Adjournment debate to which I responded that was led by the hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt), who is not in the Chamber. She made some very interesting points, especially by citing evidence from a small retailer who told her that tobacco constituted 14% of his profits, but 50% of his turnover, and who was actively trying to diversify his business into areas that yielded greater profit.
I want to place on record our position on tobacco industry lobbying, which several Members mentioned. We are well aware that the tobacco industry opposes the introduction of standardised packaging, as has been the case on many other tobacco control policies, and we are equally aware of our commitment to protect public health policy on tobacco control from the commercial and other vested interests of the tobacco industry. We encourage tobacco companies to respond in writing to consultations so that we can understand and take account of their views about the implications of policy options. Members will fully appreciate why we have to take such steps properly to inform a robust public policy in this area.
The right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow)—he is not in the Chamber, but I know he had a long-standing previous engagement—made a point about the proposed tracking and tracing scheme in the EU directive that is under negotiation. We are considering those details, particularly in the light of our obligations under the framework convention on tobacco control, to which reference has been made.
I reiterate that this policy is under active consideration, but I want hon. Members to reflect on what else we can do.
Dame Angela Watkinson
When looking at future policy development, will the Minister pay greater attention to how parents can be encouraged to take responsibility for the behaviour of their young children and how much money they have to spend unsupervised? Such money obviously gives children access to tobacco, but it is in parents’ hands to control it.
Jane Ellison
I thank my hon. Friend for that important point. We know that many children who start smoking are within a family who smoke and that they are sometimes given cigarettes by parents or other family members and friends. I will of course consider her very relevant point.
I reiterate that there are many things we can do, but we are actively considering whether standardised packaging could make an important contribution to our overall policy on tobacco control. I have noted the strength of feeling on both sides of the House. This has been a good debate, and an informative one for me as a new Minister. As I have said, I am actively considering the matter, and today’s powerful contributions have spurred me to give further and urgent consideration to this important public health issue.
Bob Blackman
This being the first time I have spoken when you have been in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker, I congratulate you on your election to high office.
We have heard today from 11 Back Benchers, as well as the two Front Benchers, and hon. Members have put their arguments strongly. Clearly, I am wholly in favour of standardised packaging for tobacco products, and the quicker it is done the better. Three arguments have been advanced against its rapid introduction. The first concerns the illicit trade. In reality, the illicit trade continues now, but the evidence is that through the security marking of packaging and cigarettes themselves, and with greater vigilance from our customs and excise people, the illicit trade can be stamped on hard. The tobacco industry, which is against standardised packaging, uses the illicit trade as an excuse.
Secondly, we have heard that the big tobacco companies would use the money they currently spend on packaging to cut the cost of tobacco. My answer is to increase the tax. We must ensure that tobacco is expensive so that people are discouraged from purchasing it. Thirdly, the key argument from those who oppose the measure seems to be, “Let’s delay and prevaricate. Let’s wait and see what happens. Let’s wait for everyone else to decide, and then take action ourselves.” As we have said, 300,000 under-18s start smoking every year, so the longer we delay, the greater the number of people taking up smoking and dying prematurely.
Barbara Keeley
I imagine that the hon. Gentleman was as disappointed as me to hear the Minister’s response. There is a tendency among Health Ministers to say that everything is at arm’s length. Like me, I hope that he rejects the Minister’s claim that responsibility lies with Public Health England, local government and Members themselves. The action we need is action that only the Government can take. Does he support that view?
Bob Blackman
I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention, but the Minister did give some clear assurances about the review of evidence and research that will take place.
We cannot afford to delay this health measure. It would stop young people being attracted to smoking. The evidence overwhelmingly shows that big tobacco targets young people to get them smoking, and we must not allow it to continue prevaricating and preventing progress on this agenda. I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to go back to her office this afternoon and look at the evidence, including the 17 studies, and make it clear to her health officials that we want to do this now, not to wait. If the Government refuse to act and the other place refuses to amend the Children and Families Bill, we will introduce another debate on which we can divide the House and demonstrate that the overwhelming will of hon. Members is for the immediate introduction of standardised packaging of tobacco products.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered standardised packaging of tobacco products.
First World War Commemoration
(11 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Andrew Murrison)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered commemoration of the First World War.
It is a great privilege to lead this Government debate during our season of remembrance. I would like to start by paying tribute to Warrant Officer Ian Fisher of 3rd Battalion the Mercian Regiment. His passing brings the events we are debating a little closer, and tragically so. Our thoughts and prayers are with the family, friends and colleagues of a truly remarkable man.
I am pleased that so many colleagues are here in the Chamber today. It shows the extent of the interest in this subject and I hope means that Members will be taking this issue to their constituencies in the years ahead and showing the leadership for which they are renowned and encouraging their communities to get involved in this commemoration. I wish to bring to the attention of right hon. and hon. Members the “Fields of Battle” exhibition, which Mr Speaker was gracious enough to allow to be displayed in Westminster Hall and the opening ceremony of which many colleagues attended on Tuesday. It is an example of how Members can take the great war centenary to their constituencies and expose this at street level to as wide an audience as possible. I commend it to the House.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
Is there not also an opportunity for hon. Members to highlight the opportunities, apparent when we go to our remembrance services and are before these memorials that provide a living link with those who lost their lives in our name, to support the War Memorials Trust and the “then and now” funding that aims to re-establish the link between community groups and their memorials and to teach people about the lives lost in our communities? That is important and will ensure that we can register memorials of all shapes and sizes donated by past generations. We need to continue that link in times to come.
Dr Murrison
My hon. Friend raises a good point and I shall underscore the importance of focusing on the personal and parochial in this commemoration, as that is the link that people have with that period. Using war memorials as the starting point is something I would encourage. I commend all those involved in that endeavour.
I would like to set out the Government’s thinking on the four-year centenary of the first world war and give a flavour of the philosophy underpinning its approach. The great war may be the keystone of our times but our understanding of it is not very good. Polling data suggests that the public know that there was a war in 1914 and have a pretty good idea of who was on what side. They know about mud, trenches and iconic things such as the Christmas truce. Thereafter, it starts to get a bit hazy. Improvement of our grasp of the causes, conduct and consequences of the first world war must be at the heart of the centenary that is about to break upon us.
As the Prime Minister said a year ago when he announced the Government’s framework for the centenary,
“Our first duty is to remember.”
But the question is, what exactly should we be remembering? The remembrance that the Prime Minister was talking about involves so much more than simply bringing to mind experiences that few of us have had or people we have never met. Remembrance is not synonymous with recollection. This Sunday is Remembrance Sunday, not recollection Sunday. It is an opportunity to acknowledge the fallen, while consciously reflecting on the nature of war and resolving to avoid it. That is what we mean by remembrance. We also give thanks that, peace restored, the great majority who served in the first world war did actually return to raise their families—our families—although, let us not forget, that all too many returned with enduring mental or physical infirmity that changed the course of their lives and that of their families to an extent that will never be quantified. That resonates with contemporary conflict, provoking I hope generosity in the 2013 poppy appeal.
The waypoints of the war sear our national consciousness; the Somme, Jutland, Gallipoli, Passchendaele, Loos and Amiens, the last so crucial as the game changer in the course of the war. We must remember that this war was also fought on the home front in the factory and the munitions depot, and by women whose lives would never be the same in a society transformed. We must commemorate this centenary because with the passing in 2009 of Harry Patch, Bill Stone and Henry Allingham, our last tangible links with the first world war are retreating into the shadows.
Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con)
My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech. Does he share my view that we should commemorate not just British soldiers but soldiers from the Commonwealth countries, particularly soldiers such as Khudadad Khan, the first Indian to be awarded the Victoria Cross, who survived the war?
Dr Murrison
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that point, which I will develop in my contribution; suffice to say I agree with him wholeheartedly.
Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Ind)
The one thing I regret is that I did not ask my grandfather more about the first world war and now, of course, it is far too late. In 1921, we gave a posthumous VC to the unknown soldier in the United States. As we now commemorate 100 years since the beginning of the first world war, is it not appropriate to at least consider awarding a VC to the unknown soldier who lies in Westminster Abbey, as suggested by a constituent, Tony Ormiston, who is an expert on the VC?
Dr Murrison
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the suggestion. Over the four-year period, there will be plenty of opportunities to mark appropriately those who fell during the great war and those who served and sacrificed. On Monday there will be a delivery of sacred soil from Flanders fields to a memorial garden at the Guards chapel not far from here; a very fitting tribute and one that will bring this country and Belgium—two key players—very much closer together. I hope people will take note of all this, and the whole point is for them to reflect and better understand what happened 100 years ago.
There are those who are asking what the point of it all is, but if we do not do this we risk disconnection from the defining event of our time. There is an opportunity perhaps to balance the “Oh! What a Lovely War”/“Blackadder” take on history that, sadly, has been in the ascendant for the past 50 years. In its place, we will have a richer, deeper and more reflective legacy. But we should acknowledge that some will interpret the centenary in different ways, holding and contributing their own views. Some within that patchwork may discomfort some of us. We may individually or corporately disagree with them but find expression they must. The role of Government in the centenary is to lead, encourage and help make it all happen, while avoiding the temptation to prescribe. It is emphatically not the place of Government in our 21st century liberal democracy to be handing down approved versions of history.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
Will the Minister acknowledge that many soldiers from the Irish Republic, as it now is, served during the first world war? The Republic of Ireland is no longer a member of the Commonwealth, of course, but it is important that their sacrifice is part of all this. Will he join me in welcoming the fact that there are seemingly positive discussions with the Government of the Irish Republic to ensure that, in relation to those who won the VC, the paving stones will be laid in counties in the Irish republic? Certainly that good work needs to continue and we welcome it very much.
Dr Murrison
I am absolutely delighted that the right hon. Gentleman has raised that point. As he would expect, we have spent a great deal of time in debate with Dublin on this matter. As I have been going through this work, it has been something of a revelation to me as I have understood fully the great work that Her Majesty the Queen did when she visited Dublin. Ever since then there has been a huge appetite in both countries to improve the relationship between the two countries, which has been extraordinarily uplifting. Of course the Republic of Ireland is engaged in its decade of commemoration, within which falls the centenary of the great war. I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that I have had extraordinarily positive feedback from Dublin regarding their engagement with this period of shared history and I look forward, as part of the legacy of the centenary, to moving the relationship a little further forward, with all the sensitivities that it of course contains. However, I see this very much as an opportunity and I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for raising that point.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
Many of the Irish nationalist Members of this House fought in the war, which they never thought they would be doing, on behalf of the united Great Britain and Ireland, including, most famously perhaps, Willie Redmond. He has a shield in the House, but one Irish nationalist MP who died in active service who does not have a shield is Captain Esmonde. Will the Minister make sure that he gets one?
Dr Murrison
I suspect that that is a matter for Mr Speaker rather than for me, but I suspect that Mr Speaker will have noted the contribution of the hon. Gentleman. I know that the House itself is working hard to determine what it will do to mark the centenary of the great war and no doubt the hon. Gentleman will be able to reinforce his point with the appropriate authority.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
I was pleased to hear the Minister say that the Government will not dictate how we should commemorate the tragedy of the first world war. I hope that, in the promotion of serious discussion on the subject, he will recall the soldiers who died in all theatres of conflict, be they German, Russian, French or British. I also hope that he will recall the significant degree of opposition to the war on both sides, in Germany and in Britain. That, too, is part of our shared history and should be commemorated and discussed.
Dr Murrison
It is rare for me to agree with the hon. Gentleman, but I agree with him on that point. I note that the Heritage Lottery Fund, which has been at the centre of all this through providing a great deal of the underpinning finance, has recognised that and been making grants accordingly. I hope that the hon. Gentleman approves of that.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
I concur with the sentiments expressed about the Irish Government. Is the Minister aware that the Commonwealth War Graves Commission is working closely with the Irish Government to erect headstones in the Republic and that it has been involved in the re-siting of the wall of remembrance at Glasnevin cemetery?
Dr Murrison
Yes, I have been to Glasnevin recently. The hon. Gentleman is right to highlight that point, because it is a special place in the history of the Republic of Ireland. None of us should underestimate the enormity of the totemic things that are happening around this in Dublin right now. I see that as part of the improvement in relationships that is happening independently of the centenary. I hope that the hon. Gentleman, as a Commonwealth war graves commissioner, will see these events as part of that process.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
In the context of the Irish dimension, may I point out that the Royal Irish Rifles also fought at the Somme, with massive losses? The Minister might be interested to know that the first Victoria Cross in the first world war was awarded to someone by the name of Dease, who was at Stonyhurst—the same school that I had the honour of attending—and that its first recipient in the second world war was also from Stonyhurst. Also, in relation to the second world war, I should like to pay tribute to Doug Lakey, who is in the Gallery this afternoon. He was awarded the military medal and he was with my father on the day he was killed in July 1944.
Dr Murrison
My hon. Friend will be delighted to hear that I did know that, not least because the great-nephew of Lieutenant Dease is a constituent of mine, and he has lost no opportunity to impress upon me the importance of his great uncle. My hon. Friend will also be delighted to hear that on 4 August, the first day of the commemoration, there will be an event at St Symphorien, where Lieutenant Dease is interred. His part in the conflict will certainly be commemorated appropriately, and I am delighted that my hon. Friend has brought him to the attention of the House.
I would like to tell the House what the Government are planning to do over the next four and a half years. First and foremost, and most obviously, there will be national events to capture the moment and set the tone. They will have an identifiably Commonwealth look and feel, reflecting the historical reality. We have been working with our international partners and with the devolved Administrations to that end. A centrepiece of the commemorations will be the reopening of the Imperial War museum in London next year, following the £35 million refurbishment of its first world war galleries. There will be an enduring educational legacy, funded by £5.3 million from the Department for Education and the Department for Communities and Local Government, to enable a programme based on, but not confined to, visits to the battlefields.
The Heritage Lottery Fund will provide at least £15 million, including a £6 million community project fund, to enable young people working in their communities to conserve, explore and share local heritage from the first world war, epitomised by yellowing photos of young men posing stiffly in uniform, possibly for the first and last time. Much of the public interest in the period is personal and parochial, and this will provide a non-threatening entry point to the wider story. There will also be at least £10 million in the programme of cultural events taking place as part of the centenary commemorations over the four-year period.
Work with organisations and across government will continue to generate initiatives that will find and engage people under the umbrella of the centenary partnership. I shall name-check just a few. They include: the centenary poppy partnership between the Royal British Legion and B&Q; the commemoration of great war Victoria Cross recipients at their place of birth; football matches to mark the Christmas truce; mass participation in volunteering in the Remember 100 project; street naming for the centenary to inculcate memory in the heart of our towns and cities; a British adaptation of the excellent Europeana digital archiving initiative, capturing previous memories and artefacts that would otherwise turn to dust; and the National Apprenticeship Service centenary challenge. All this has the common theme of bringing history to life for everyone in all communities, even those that might feel, right now, that this has nothing to do with them.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
I am sorry that we do not have more time to debate this important subject this afternoon. Does the Minister recognise the important role that hotels played in the first world war? Many were converted into hospitals, including the Mont Dore hotel, which is now the town hall in Bournemouth. The great estates were also used in that way, including Highclere, which is now better known as Downton Abbey. It will be taking part in the commemorations next year when it will be converted into a first world war hospital for one week, thanks to the work of Lady Carnarvon.
Dr Murrison
The project that my hon. Friend describes is exactly the sort of thing that will engage people locally. We have to understand that different people will approach the events in different ways. Our overarching aim is to improve understanding of the causes, conduct and consequences of the war, but we really need to do that in ways that people will find approachable and non-threatening. The initiative that he has described will be interesting and inspiring for many, and I certainly look forward to visiting it.
I am afraid that some of our more shouty newspapers are salivating at the prospect of the Government attempting a grotesque impersonation of Basil Fawlty, in which we do not mention the war for fear of upsetting Germany. Disappointingly for those newspapers, the history is untweaked by the Government and will remain so. We are indebted to Sunder Katwala of British Future for commissioning YouGov to inform us of public attitudes to the centenary. The survey found that 77% of the public see it as an opportunity for reconciliation with former enemies. We know from comments made by Harry Patch—the “last Tommy”—in the final years of his life that he would agree with that wholeheartedly. The history stands, but the Government will of course seek reconciliation not only with the former central powers but with partners in Europe and the former empire, wherever we share a complex and nuanced history.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
In the context of Germany, will my hon. Friend pay particular attention to the large number of German prisoners of war who died as a result of their wounds while imprisoned in England? Many of them were re-buried in Staffordshire in the 1960s, but there are currently no headstones to commemorate them. Will he look into whether that could be corrected?
Dr Murrison
My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. Perhaps that is something that we could usefully raise with the German Government, with whom we are of course in contact on these matters, as he would expect. There are Germans interred in the churchyard of Sutton Veny in my constituency, and their resting places are instantly recognisable by the nature of their markers. That is a positive suggestion, and I think that matter could reasonably be addressed with Germany.
Dr Murrison
I am going to make some progress, because I am conscious that a lot of right hon. and hon. Members would like to take part in the debate.
It is worth pointing out that the centenary courts controversy. None of us should be under any illusion about that. Indeed, we should welcome it. Opinion is already stretched between those who hold that the war was a futile wasteful tragedy and those who believe it was entirely necessary, notwithstanding the cost, and even that victory was as important in 1918 as it was in 1945. I believe that most of our countrymen going to war in 1914 did so with a firm sense of “doing the right thing”. Anyone familiar with the doctrines of St Thomas Aquinas and St Augustine would have said—and I agree—that our countrymen were marching or sailing to a just war. I know my own grandfather felt that way.
Even as Foreign Secretary Sir Edward Grey was observing lamps going out across Europe that would not be re-lit in his time, the bulk of Britain’s political class, under a Liberal Prime Minister, were confident that resisting a militaristic aggressor in the way proposed satisfied the moral preconditions laid out for a just war. I doubt whether those who stood here in 1914 deserve their reputation as the willing consigners of other men’s sons to hideous death. People should read Hansard for 3 August 1914 and touch those politicians’ agony; they should compare the quality of that pre-conflict debate to ours on Syria in August this year; and they should count off the shields around this Chamber and the names of Members of this House and their sons inscribed in Westminster Hall.
Few of our predecessors in the long expectant summer of 1914 foresaw the consequences or the terrible cost, but finally, after military victory, came political failure—a lesson for all of us who have the privilege and responsibility of sitting here.
I am grateful to the many Members on both sides of the House who have contributed to our preparations and continue to do so. I hope we have set a framework for a fitting centenary—commemoratively, educationally and culturally—that will, with the most profound respect, mark the seminal moment in our modern history for the benefit of all parts of the community, and particularly for the custodians of the legacy: our young people.
Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), and of course I join him in paying tribute to Warrant Officer Ian Fisher from 3rd Battalion the Mercian Regiment, who tragically lost his life in Afghanistan. It is the responsibility of all of us to ensure that his sacrifice is never forgotten.
It is an honour to open this debate on behalf of the Opposition, and it is heartening to know that there is such widespread interest across the House in the 100th anniversary commemoration of world war one. I look forward to what I know will be a good debate and to the eloquent and no doubt poignant contributions from Members of all parties. It is fitting that we will hear from Members representing every corner of the United Kingdom, expressing their interest in plans for the centenary commemorations and illustrating the huge impact that world war one had on the whole of Britain. Our commemorations here will also be part of what will be a truly global event, which will include contributions from our friends in the Commonwealth and events that are taking place around the world.
Let me take the opportunity at the outset to pay tribute to the Minister for the calm, measured and dedicated way in which he has prepared for the centenary commemorations. We look forward to continuing to work closely with him, with the Government and with all in this House to ensure that world war one is commemorated in a fitting manner.
The Minister has outlined some of the Government’s plans to commemorate the centenary anniversary next year. Aside from the multitude of events that will take place up and down the country, the Government have pledged over £50 million, which will be put towards the centenary anniversary commemorations. The plans include a refurbishment of the world war one galleries at the Imperial War museum; a nationwide scheme that will allow school students from across the country to visit world war one battlefields; community projects funded by the Heritage Lottery Fund and designed to educate young people to conserve, explore and share local heritage of world war one; and a grant from the national heritage memorial fund to support HMS Caroline in Belfast—the last surviving warship from the world war one fleet. We support those plans and will work with the Government to ensure their smooth delivery.
Additionally, a huge number of other organisations are planning their contributions to the commemoration. There are too many to mention by name, but I would like briefly to mention, of course, the First World War Centenary Partnership, led by the Imperial War museum, which will present a programme of cultural events and activities to commemorate the centenary. Also as part of the commemorations, the BBC has commissioned over 1,000 programmes across various platforms, helping to inform and educate the public about the events and the impact of world war one. The Woodland Trust will launch a project in May 2014 to commemorate British and Commonwealth great war heroes through the simple, yet poignant act of planting a tree. I look forward to hearing from Members about how the commemoration will be marked in their constituencies.
As we commemorate the centenary of world war one, there will be those who say we should seek to understand the fundamental question of why Britain went to war in the first instance. A recent poll for British Future asked how much people knew about the war. Its polling showed that 66% of people knew that world war one began in 1914, that 47% knew that the war was in part sparked by the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand and that 9% knew that Herbert Asquith was the British Prime Minister at the start of the war.
What polling will not capture, however, is the extent to which the public understand the original motivations for the war. A student of history might conclude that, aside from the strategic rationale, Britain’s motives for entering world war one demonstrated a conscientious effort to uphold international law and a desire to defend smaller, more vulnerable nations. There will be those who will seek to have this informed debate, but there should be no doubt about the profound impact of this war.
Many people may know that between 1914 and 1918, 1.2 million volunteers came from around the globe to serve alongside the allies, answering the call of “Your Empire Needs You”. Many people appreciate the scale of the loss of life that was to follow, and many people know something of the 750,000 British soldiers who died or the 1.5 million soldiers who returned home injured. They may have heard something of the 20,000 British soldiers who were killed on the first day of the Somme or they may recall Wilfred Owen’s imagery of choking soldiers drowning in a sea of chlorine gas. They will also understand that sacrifice on this scale must always be remembered—it must always be commemorated.
It is important to remember world war one for more than just the industrialisation of death that it brought with it. The war paved the way for numerous world events, including, of course, the outbreak of the second world war—events that have ultimately shaped the world we live in today. The war had a profound impact on Britain too, and many countries in the Commonwealth sought independence after it ended. Britain lost its place as the world’s largest investor, and the role of women changed for ever. By 1931, 50% of women remained single, and 35% never married while of childbearing age.
The other great social change that came from world war one involved voting. Before the war, neither working men nor women had votes. The sacrifice of men from all classes, combined with the fact that women were taking on jobs that had previously been seen as a male preserve and with the campaigning of the suffragists and suffragettes, compelled politicians to change the position.
In the light of that, Labour Members consider it essential for us to ensure that the right tone is struck when we are remembering world war one. I believe that we are all clear about the fact that this is not a celebration, but a commemoration. War should never be celebrated; instead, it should be remembered, and we should learn from it. Getting the tone right is therefore imperative. We agree with the Government that there should be no flag-waving, that there should be an absolute right to remember those whose opinions differed, and that there should be no rigid Government narrative. It is right for us to give people the facts, and then to let them conduct their own analyses and form their own judgments.
However, it is important that, as a country, we do not shy away from addressing some of the war’s complications. There is a strong public perception of what it was like, formed partly by war poets and reinforced by the 1960s production of “Oh! What a Lovely War” and television programmes such as “Blackadder Goes Forth”. Those cultural representations stand as powerful and eloquent testimonies to the savagery of world war one, but if they are all that we know of the war, they are poor history.
Those who have been schooled in stories of the “lost generation” may be surprised to learn that the fatality rate in the British forces overall was 12%. That is a terrible figure—and some communities were affected much worse than others—but the figure is not as high as people tend to imagine. Nor are public impressions of daily life during the war always accurate. Blackadder lived for years in a dugout, but in reality infantry battalions spent an average of about one week of every month in the trenches. There were notable exceptions, but they do not disprove the generality of soldiers’ experiences.
Mr Kevan Jones
I am glad that my hon. Friend has mentioned “Blackadder”, which, although obviously very amusing, constitutes something of a misrepresentation of events during world war one. One example is the idea that senior officers were not part of the action. In fact, nearly 70 generals and major-generals died in action on the western front and in other conflicts.
Dan Jarvis
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that important intervention. Let me be clear: I think that “Blackadder” is an excellent programme. It is very funny, and Members in all parts of the House will remember the very moving scene at the end of the series in which Blackadder and others advance into no man’s land. That certainly serves as a powerful testimony to the savagery of world war one. However, my hon. Friend is right to point out that it is not a strictly historical account. I think that the commemorations that will begin next year will give us an opportunity to revisit some of the history, to look carefully at the detail, and, perhaps, to promote a better factual understanding of it.
We believe that, in order to ensure that world war one is remembered and commemorated appropriately and its complications are addressed, those involved in the centenary events should be mindful that—as the Minister rightly pointed out—there will be debates about the history. Some will say that we should go further than the western front. Some of the bloodiest battles may have been fought in western Europe, but battles fought in other parts of the world are also important in the overall context of the war, and it is therefore right for us to recognise the huge contribution of British Empire forces from around the globe.
Some will say that we should address the gap between the “pointless futility” narrative and what soldiers actually believed that they were fighting for, both during and after the war. Today our forces in Afghanistan rightly take pride in the job that they do and the bonds of service that they form, and the same applied to those who fought in world war one. During those years, soldiers fought for much. They fought because of a belief that their country was threatened, but ultimately, when it came down to it, they fought for their regiments, and for the man standing next to them in the trench. If we want to pay proper tribute to the war dead—as I know that we do—and also to those who came through the war, we should seek to remember that.
Some will say—and, as the Minister said, there are clearly sensitivities in this respect—that we should recognise that the British military, along with their allies, defeated Germany militarily in the war, with the final period marking one of the most effective in the history of the British Army. For many decades, historians have pointed to military tactics developing and improving between 1914 and 1918, which eventually enabled the allies to break out from the stalemate of the trenches. Although that is little consolation to those who lost ancestors in the war’s early years, it does explain why there was so much public grief at Haig’s funeral in 1928 from the veterans who had served under his command, surprising though that is to us now. It is important that we get this right and we will work with the Government to ensure that we do so.
Around the country, I have been privileged to meet scores of people and I have seen at first hand the coming together of people and communities. I have seen the passion and the interest that the commemoration has already invoked. In my constituency of Barnsley Central I have been struck by the amount of enthusiasm for the commemorations, led by individuals such as Aubrey Martin-Wells and Goff Griffiths from the central branch of the Royal British Legion. I am sure other Members will echo similar sentiments from their constituencies. I urge Members from across the House and from around the country to continue to encourage and spark debate in their own constituencies, to ensure that their communities come together to commemorate the war.
In my constituency, it is the bravery of the Barnsley Pals who formed the 13th and 14th Battalions of the York and Lancaster Regiment that will be remembered. Both Barnsley Pals battalions were part of the attack on Serre on the first day of the Somme campaign. On that one day, 1 July 1916, the 1st Barnsley Pals lost 275 men, while the 2nd lost 270. It is in such events that the true impact of world war one can be understood—when we think of the countless husbands, fathers, brothers and sons who never came home, and the unassuageable loss suffered by those families and their communities.
Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)
My hon. Friend rightly comments on the fathers, husbands, brothers and sons who did not come home, but there were also women who did not come home—women who worked in dressing stations in hospitals that were shelled and women who worked in armaments factories in the UK. We must recognise that a lot of women also lost their lives fighting to ensure victory in the war.
Dan Jarvis
I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for her intervention, because she is absolutely right to highlight the incredibly important role women played in this conflict. That is precisely why we must work together to seek to get the tone of these commemorations right next year—that we come together as a House to reflect and commemorate the broader social change of which she speaks.
In conclusion, there is no doubt that the importance of world war one cannot be counted in terms just of battlefield casualties or military innovation, as my hon. Friend has very eloquently illustrated. By dint of its influence and its timing, and the wider social change it brought about, it is the single most significant event of the 20th century. As such, it is something we must commemorate, we must learn from and we must educate our children about, but above all we must remember, because it is only through remembering that we will truly understand the impact that world war one has had on British society and, in so doing, understand what it means to be British.
All Members will have heard the phrase, “Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori”, often referred to as “the old lie”. Well, it is not glorious to die for your country, but it is now comforting to know that where once there were landscapes of war, there are now landscapes of peace.
With the passing of Florence Green, from King’s Lynn in Norfolk, who served as a mess steward at RAF bases in Marham and Narborough, and who died in February 2012, and with the passing of the world’s last known combat veteran of world war one, Briton Claude Choules, who died in Australia aged 110 in May 2011, and, of course, with the passing of the final three world war one veterans—Bill Stone, Henry Allingham and Harry Patch—who all died in 2009, world war one is no longer a war of memory: it is now a war of history. It is our solemn responsibility to ensure that we remember and honour those men and women who have laid down their lives for our country, and that is what we will do.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
Order. Before I call hon. Members from the Back Benches, I have to tell the House that in order to give an opportunity to the very large number of Members who wish to speak this afternoon I have had to impose a time limit of six minutes on speeches. Obviously, I will not impose that limit on the first hon. Member to speak, but I know that he will adhere approximately to that length of time. I call Keith Simpson.
Mr Keith Simpson (Broadland) (Con)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I first congratulate both Front Benchers on their moving and informative speeches? We are all the sons and daughters of history. I am conscious of the fact that 99 years ago today, on 7 November 1914, the old British Army with the Territorials was dying, literally, in the area of Ypres in Belgium. Both my grandfathers were there—both survived—one in the Royal Flying Corps and one who had volunteered in August 1914 because he could drive, and then found himself in the Army Service Corps. As an old man, he told me that he had not expected to be toting a rifle and bayonet with the infantry, but such was the desperation of the defence that they were needed.
My generation is the lucky generation. I know I do not look it, but I am 64, and I am of the generation that missed a major war. My grandfathers fought in the first world war, and my father and uncles fought in the second world war. I lived through the cold war. However, a younger generation—my son and his friends—might ask why we are commemorating the first world war when we should perhaps be commemorating the revolutionary and Napoleonic wars, which had just as major an impact on history. I suggest that the reason is not least because of the scale of the suffering and involvement, but also because we have an empathy towards the people involved and we can understand them far more. A very literate group of men and women fought, and we have images of them. In addition, the war is still controversial today.
I have to declare an interest, as I have written books about the British Army and the first world war. Along with the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), who is about to resume his place, I am a parliamentary commissioner on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. I am also a member of the Prime Minister’s advisory board on commemorating the first world war, along with the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson). What I briefly wish to talk about relates to the fact that, along with Lord Wallace of Saltaire, I am the joint chairman of the parliamentary committee looking at commemorating the first world war.
Why should Parliament commemorate the first world war? It is because there is a political element, a commemorative element, a learning and knowledge element and a personal element. The political one is that to engage young people today, we need to get them to think about the fact that big political issues were being debated before and during the first world war. Let us be under no illusion: Britain was not a peaceful, pastoral, “Downton Abbey” kind of place in the spring of 1914. We were nearly faced with a civil war in Ireland, there were mass industrial disputes and there were major social problems of one kind or another. In some respects, the war prevented domestic violence on a large scale.
We also have to recognise that Parliament did count. Of course, the Prime Minister did not have to come to Parliament to get a vote in support of his declaring war, but he was conscious of taking the temperature. The legislation that Parliament passed during the first world war, some of it pre-dating the war, is still with us today. Examples of that include the setting up of the intelligence and security aspects of British government, and legislation on licensing. The debates on conscription broke the old Liberal party, and debates took place here on whether or not we should seek a negotiated peace. Those things are not just a walk down memory lane; if we face young people today with all that, they will understand the importance of it. That is one thing that the advisory committee is hoping to get Parliament, and, in particular, the Youth Parliament, involved with.
Secondly, let me deal with the commemorative aspects. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) made the point that there was no badge here for one former MP who died—
Mr Simpson
I am sorry. I will make sure that the officials in Parliament take note of that.
That is an important aspect, because large numbers of MPs and peers, and their children, were killed or badly wounded in the first world war and we commemorate them. Let us remember that both Asquith and Bonar Law, the leaders of the two major parties, lost sons in the first world war. It was not an academic war for them. Large numbers of staff served in the first world war. One of the waiters in the House of Commons Dining Room was killed in action in 1917. The war came home literally to this place.
As for the question of learning and knowledge, it is important that we will provide, via websites and the internet, a lot of information about Parliament and the memorials in Parliament that will be available to the public. We will link that to the project on lives of people in the first world war that is being established by the Imperial War museum.
More than anything else, this all has a personal aspect. One thing that my noble Friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire has done in the House of Lords, which is something that we will do in the House of Commons, is to send a questionnaire to every peer and peeress asking what their families did during the first world war. He has received some fascinating replies. People had relatives who served not only in the British armed forces, as one might expect, or on the support side, but in the Commonwealth armed forces and the Indian army. He has received replies from people whose relatives fought on both sides: the father’s side of the family in the British Army, and the mother’s side in the Austro-Hungarian or German army. I would like to think that we would be able to get such information from colleagues in this place and from the staff, too. We would be able to put that into the public domain to contribute to the commemoration.
We must also consider the fact that we will not stop in 2018 with the commemoration of 1918. The first world war did not end there; its legacy continued. There were big debates in this House about how we were going to honour the dead. The establishment of the Imperial War Graves Commission in 1917 was controversial. Up until then, bodies had been brought home, so the decision to bury the dead where they had fallen was controversial. Political upheaval followed the end of the first world war. Ex-soldiers from Irish regiments became members of the IRA or, on the other side, of the auxiliary division of the Royal Irish Constabulary. There was a civil war there.
There was also the disillusionment that grew in the 1920s and 1930s, and the legacy of pacifism and appeasement that affected minorities in the Labour, Liberal and Conservative parties. It is difficult for us now to think that while Harold Macmillan, whom I remember meeting in 1978 as a very old but fully alert man, was the British Prime Minister in 1963, which is well within my lifetime, his most moving experience was serving in the first world war. He tended to judge men and women by how they had acted and behaved in that war.
I hope that what we are doing, with the help of Members, to get Parliament to consider how to commemorate the first world war will not only interest us, but involve the wider public and young people, which is one of our greatest aims. I suspect that all those men and women who were lucky enough to survive the war and live on would approve of what we are trying to do and of the fact that we are going to consider the matter in a non-prescriptive way. Instead, to use that old expression, we will let a thousand flowers bloom and have a proper debate.
Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)
Today I want to remember the 11th Battalion East Lancashire Regiment, universally known as the Accrington Pals. The battalion’s horrific losses stand as a reminder of the gratuitous barbarity of the warfare, particularly trench warfare, during the first world war. The history of the battalion is as known now as it was in the years of suffering that followed. The tragic waste of human potential during the first world war was quite simply shocking. Young men died in horrific and frightening circumstances. Modern cinematic productions allow us occasionally to glimpse that horror and, each and every time, any thought of this being a reality is frightening to me.
Many people in Hyndburn signed up not to the Pals, but to other regiments. I was fortunate enough to find a piece of information from Kew about my great-grandfather’s record. He served in the Royal Ambulance Medical Corps. While I knew him before he died, I recall my grandfather occasionally speaking of his father’s time on the front line, carrying off young men who had lost body parts and whose bodies had been mutilated by shells, mines and bullets—some alive, some dying, many dead and many screaming out as they died. That my great-grandfather rarely spoke of those horrors, paralysed by his fearful memories, is testament to the torturous experiences many of the combatants faced. I am grateful to the Hyndburn historians Walter Holmes, who worked as an apprentice alongside my grandfather, and the late Bill Turner, for their lifelong dedication to the history of the regiment and the fallen soldiers, and personally for helping me find my great-grandfather’s limited Army record.
There were, of course, many Pals regiments. My hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) has talked about the Barnsley Pals. I applaud the successful work of my right hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Mr Hoyle) in building a monument to be proud of and a museum in Chorley. A large number of memorials celebrate the sacrifices of the Pals regiments in the borough.
The particular tragedy of the Pals regiments is that their members were all friends and family from the same area, formed as a result of Lord Kitchener’s desire to boost morale through the creation of a voluntary army and the belief that people would be more willing to sign up if they were able to fight alongside their community. Hundreds of people from Accrington and surrounding towns joined up together to defend this great nation.
Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)
I am listening to the hon. Gentleman with interest. Is he aware of the magnificent memorial at the misleadingly named Sheffield memorial park in Serre on the Somme? The Accrington brick memorial pays a very good tribute to that regiment.
Graham Jones
I am well aware of it, and with the help of Cath Holmes, one of the granddaughters of someone who fought in the war, I helped to get a sign in Serre pointing the way for relatives to the cemeteries where soldiers from Accrington and other places in the borough are buried. We need to make more of that memorial.
The Pals regiments were incredibly popular and, by 1914, 50 towns had them. The Accrington Pals honoured by playwright Peter Whelan remind us of the devastating impact of the first world war. The great sadness is the colossal waste of human life. In their very first assault during the battle for Serre on the first day of the Somme, 584 of 720 Pals were killed, wounded or declared missing. The fighting started at 7.20 am and by 8 am, just 40 minutes later, a generation of young men from in and around Accrington had laid down their life or had it altered for ever. What Lord Kitchener did not foresee when designing a policy intended to boost morale was that if the regiment suffered substantial losses, the whole community would be devastated.
Percy Holmes, the brother of one of the Pals who fought that day, recalled:
“I remember when the news came through to Accrington that the Pals had been wiped out. I don’t think there was a street in Accrington and district that didn’t have their blinds drawn and the bell at Christ Church tolled all the day.”
The reason why the Pals are so important, and why they must not be forgotten, is that they were identifiably part of the community. Helped by Hyndburn council, the Accrington Pals centenary commemoration group has a programme of civic, cultural, religious, musical and even horticultural themes across the next few years that will pay tribute to the Pals, including concerts, exhibitions, films, visits to Serre to lay wreaths, and the planting of poppies. I hope that Members will reflect for a moment on those 40 minutes of madness when they are able to sample the Accrington Pals ale in Strangers bar next year.
Recently, I have worked with a constituent, Cath Holmes, on getting signs put up and trying to get people to go and see the cemeteries at Serre and the other great sites. It seems like only a little thing, but to have a plain sign put up in a field in France is important for the people of Accrington and the wider area, because it is a symbol of their past and it commemorates those who gave their lives.
Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and belated congratulations on your elevation.
As part of the commemoration, recollection and thinking about history that we are all going to talk about this afternoon in the Chamber, I want to speak about the Sikh contribution in the great war. I know that much has been made of the contribution of all Commonwealth forces, but the Sikh contribution is sometimes overlooked. I will also refer to the contribution of Wolverhampton. It would be remiss of me not to do so. If I cannot do this as a Sikh Member of Parliament for Wolverhampton South West, I am not entirely sure what my purpose is in this place.
At the start of the war, Sikhs made up a tiny percentage of an undivided India, yet they were contributing 22% of the British Indian army. More than 138,000 Indian troops fought in Belgium and France and over a quarter of these would, unfortunately, become casualties. After the bloody battle of Neuve Chapelle in 1915, the Sikh regiments had lost nearly 80% of their men, with three regiments standing at just 16% of their original complement. The valour and courage of Sikh soldiers was rightly commended by British generals. General Sir Frank Messery, commenting on the Sikh contribution in both world wars, noted that the only physical protection that Sikhs had was their turban—a symbol of our faith.
General Sir James Wilcox, the Commander of the Indian Corps, stated that the Sikh regiments responded with only
“their valour, their rifles and two machine guns per battalion”
to the heavy German bombardment of mortars, hand grenades and high explosive shells.
What intrigues many is what would motivate these men to fight in a war thousands of miles away, for a cause that did not seem too relevant to them. For some it may have been the financial reward, but for many it was their duty to bring honour to their clan by fighting bravely like warriors. Perhaps their motivation is best captured by Indar Singh, a Sikh soldier fighting on the Somme in September 1916, who wrote home:
“It is quite impossible that I should return alive. Don’t be grieved at my death, because I shall die arms in hand, wearing the warrior’s clothes. This is the most happy death that anyone can die.”
Those are strong words and, in the modern context, perhaps difficult to understand, but when we think of that young man, thousands of miles away from home, they show something of his psyche and his values and beliefs.
More than 4 million men and women from British colonies volunteered in the first and second world wars. For many Members here, I know this is a matter of great pride, and indeed it is for me personally. My own maternal great-grandfather, Jawala Singh Khela, fought in the still-relevant theatre of Basra during the great war.
I am proud, too, of the contribution that was made to the war effort by the town, as it was then, of Wolverhampton. At the outbreak of war in 1914, many men enthusiastically flocked to the town hall to sign up, eager to help the national effort in a war they believed would be “over by Christmas”. As a bustling industrial town, Wolverhampton was ready to contribute to the provision of resources for the front line. Villiers Engineering Company produced ammunition, and Guy Motors became the largest manufacturer of firing mechanisms for depth charges in the country. H. M. Hobson Ltd manufactured carburettors for engines, and the Sunbeam Motor Car Company produced staff cars and commercial vehicles for the military, ambulances for the Red Cross and engines for aircraft and high-speed naval craft. It is ironic that the Villiers Engineering Company and its Sunbeam motor manufacturing unit, which was on Upper Villiers street, is now a Sikh temple, of which I am a trustee.
Wolverhampton showed its proud, hospitable credentials in the great war by providing accommodation for displaced Belgian refugees. In September 1914, the local refugee committee and Roman Catholics in the area offered to accommodate 25 refugees, and the offer was accepted by the local authority. The following month, two hostels were established in Finchfield and Pennfields, and by March 1915 a further three hostels had been set up.
Wolverhampton is noted for its generosity. I am proud to represent a city that displays an outward-looking and accommodating attitude to those most in need. I am proud not only of our city’s industrial contribution, but of its many war heroes. I will highlight one individual in particular. Douglas Morris Harris was a wireless telegrapher on board an Italian drifter, the Floandi, which was being used to blockade the port of Kotor and prevent the Austrian navy from accessing the Adriatic sea. In May 1917 the drifter was attacked by the Austrians, but Harris remained dutifully at his post and unfortunately lost his life at the age of just 19. For his bravery he was awarded one of Italy’s highest honours, and his bust still stands proudly in the grounds of St Peter’s church in Wolverhampton, adjacent to the cenotaph, which I have the pleasure of being able to see from my constituency office window.
It was no surprise that when the war came to an end in 1918 the people of Wolverhampton greeted the news with relief, happiness and thanksgiving, as well as sorrow and reflection on what, and indeed who, had been lost. It was certainly a sorrowful time for the Belgian refugee Peter van Cleven, whose son had been killed on the battlefield just a few days before the war ended. In 1919 the local authority established a war memorial committee to create a roll of remembrance to honour over 1,700 men from Wolverhampton who left home to fight but never returned.
On Sunday I will be standing at the cenotaph at St Peter’s church, shoulder to shoulder with veterans of previous conflicts, to honour the gallantry, bravery and sacrifice of all those who have laid down their lives so that we can enjoy our freedom. I will remember poignantly the contribution of Sikh regiments and the esteem in which they were held by British generals, and I will reflect on the heroic sacrifices of the city of Wolverhampton, both on the home front and the front line. The coming weekend will be a great time for reflection across our nation. I hope that we will never neglect our duties in remembering the fallen.
Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
I think that we all agree that the first world war was a truly terrible conflict. There can be no doubting the bravery of the millions who fought for their country, many of whom lost their lives—nearly 1 million soldiers from the British Army and over 700,000 from the British isles. But I believe that we should also acknowledge the conscientious objectors to the war. They, too, were people of courage who stood up for what they believed in and experienced enormous public opprobrium as a result. They also experienced huge personal hardship and discrimination after the war ended.
Caerphilly has a two-fold distinction in that respect. First, two of its MPs, Morgan Jones and Ness Edwards, were conscientious objectors. Ness was the Member of Parliament from 1939 until 1968 and served as Postmaster General in the 1951 Labour Government. He was preceded by Morgan Jones, who served as an Education Minister in the Labour Governments of 1924 and 1929. Secondly, Morgan Jones was the first conscientious objector to be elected to the House of Commons—he was elected in a by-election in August 1921—and it is about him that I would like to say a few words this afternoon.
Morgan Jones was born in May 1895 in Gelligaer in the Rhymney valley. He came from a modest background, his father being a coal miner. He left the valley to receive an education at Reading university but returned to become a local councillor. He was elected as a socialist and a member of the Independent Labour party. He was a man of principle, courage and conviction. He did what he thought was right and held firmly to his principles throughout his life.
From the moment Britain entered the great war in August 1914, Morgan Jones was a vocal opponent of the war. Like many in the ILP, he believed that the war was unjustified and unnecessary, a nationalist conflict that set worker against worker. He therefore opposed the war as a socialist and as an internationalist. But he also adopted a Christian pacifist position and declared his opposition to all forms of warfare, believing that the destruction of human life should not be a means of solving international disputes. His unequivocal views led him quickly to join the No Conscription Fellowship, and he was appointed to its national committee in 1914.
In the early part of the war, until 1916, the British Army consisted entirely of volunteers, and south Wales was a particularly important recruiting ground. However, it soon became clear that relying on volunteers was not enough, so the Government introduced the Military Service Act 1916 and conscription. Under the Act, local tribunals were established to determine cases of exemption for men who could best contribute to the war by continuing in their civil roles. One of the effects of the Act was to create two kinds of conscientious objector. The absolutists were those who adopted a maximalist position of being opposed to the war but also refusing to accept any kind of alternative work. The other type of conscientious objector was the alternativist. These individuals were wholly opposed to the war but prepared nevertheless to accept some form of alternative employment, mostly in transport or mining. Morgan Jones was one of those conscientious objectors, and he eventually came to accept membership of this voluntary scheme.
Early in 1916, Morgan Jones received his call-up papers. At about the same time, Gelligaer urban district council, of which he was a member, was informed—
Mr Kevan Jones
My hon. Friend is making a very good speech that shows how we are going to look at all aspects of the first world war in the coming years. Is he aware that some 7,000 conscientious objectors went to the front and some were killed as a result of doing stretcher-bearing and ambulance work?
Wayne David
Yes indeed. Those who became stretcher-bearers were probably at the greatest risk of all those in the armed forces, and the casualties among them were particularly high.
Morgan Jones was a member of Gelligaer urban district council. His own council, at a full meeting in February 1916, voted by 10 votes to eight to empower the chairman and the clerk to convene a special meeting wherever necessary to take appropriate action to consider the cases of those who were making conscientious objections. Such a meeting was convened in his case, but it was inquorate, and it seems very likely that the Labour members absented themselves to make it so. Nevertheless, the local tribunal was eventually convened and Morgan Jones appeared before it to put his case.
Interestingly enough—I have done some research on this matter—the minutes of Gelligaer urban district council have mysteriously disappeared from the Glamorgan record office, as have the minutes of the local tribunal, and nobody seems to know why. However, we know from the local press that when the tribunal was convened, Morgan Jones put a robust case, declaring himself a socialist and someone who was
“resolutely opposed to all warfare”.
He argued that the war was the result of wrongheaded diplomacy. Predictably, however, the local tribunal concluded that he would not be excluded from military service. He therefore appealed to the tribunal in Cardiff, but his appeal fell. At the same time, action was being taken against the No Conscription Fellowship, and he was found guilty in that regard as well.
In essence, after all was said and done, Morgan Jones went to trial and went to prison, and, as a consequence, suffered a great deal of physical and mental hardship. However, at the end of the war, when he was eventually released, an opportunity arose for him to stand for election to this Parliament in 1921. He was successfully elected and, as a result, made his true imprint on history by being the first conscientious objector to be elected to this House.
Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)
I congratulate my hon. and gallant Friend the Minister not only on the measured speech that he gave today but on all the hard work he has done over a long period as the Prime Minister’s special envoy to ensure that this country gets this right. I also congratulate the hon. and gallant Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) on his speech. They both got it right. This is not a celebration; it is a commemoration. The language is therefore very important, and we are off to a good start. This debate is also about the relevance today of what happened 100 years ago. It was, of course, the last time that cavalry went into a major battle. Those four years saw the emergence of tanks and aircraft, so there was a complete change.
What happened then is relevant to what followed. The Chavasse rehabilitation centre in Colchester is named after Captain Noel Godfrey Chavasse, VC and Bar and recipient of the military cross, who died aged 32. He was the twin son of the Bishop of Liverpool. The battle of Guillemont saw acts of heroism by Captain Chavasse, the only man to be awarded the Victoria Cross twice during the first world war. In 1916, Chavasse was hit by shell splinters while rescuing men in no man’s land. He performed similar heroics in the offensive at Passchendaele, gaining his second VC to become the most highly decorated British serviceman in the war. Sadly, he died of his wounds in 1917. The rehabilitation centre, which opened two or three years ago at the Colchester garrison, is funded by Help for Heroes and the Royal British Legion.
My interest in the great war—it only became known as the first world war in 1939—started when, as a 14-year-old scout on my first class hike, I was required to do a task on a topic and I chose war memorials. As I went around the villages on the Essex-Suffolk border, the sheer numbers of those who died between 1914 and 1918—or was it between 1914 and 1919?—quickly dawned on me. The question of why some war memorials have different dates has to be explained. Why is it that in certain areas the war ended in a different year?
All the memorials referred to the men, never the women, of a particular village or town. I have only ever seen one memorial mentioning women from the first world war and that was in Hamilton, Ontario in Canada. That needs to be addressed.
Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman is delivering a very interesting speech. He has mentioned the number of young men and, indeed, women from some of the villages who were struck down during the great war. In my constituency, Northlew is in the tragic position of having proportionately suffered the most casualties of any community in the country. To commemorate the great war, poppies will be planted all the way from Northlew to the nearest town of Okehampton, which is seven miles away. Will the hon. Gentleman join me in saluting all the men and women in local communities throughout the country who will do so much to make sure that those who died in the great war are not forgotten?
Sir Bob Russell
I endorse the hon. Gentleman’s words. I think he has read my mind, because I was going to go on to say that, while this is a national and international event, it is what happens in our local communities that is important in terms of bringing it home to today’s generation.
The BBC’s world war one centenary season will be the biggest and most ambitious pan-BBC season ever undertaken. There will be four years of programming and events spanning 2014 to 2018, more than 130 specially commissioned programmes and about 2,500 hours of programming.
Others also need to be praised. The Imperial War museum has already done a fantastic amount of research. It is asking people around the country to search in the attic for diaries, memorabilia and artefacts that belonged to their granddad, great-granddad or great-granny. In the past week, I have been advised of a constituent who has in his loft a wing mirror from an Army vehicle that was situated less than a mile from the front line somewhere in France. A German sniper took out the wing mirror and, significantly, the driver of the vehicle was a woman. We need to recognise such memorabilia and stories.
Returning to the local theme raised by the hon. Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride), the War Memorials Trust has said:
“As we approach Remembrance Sunday we are all aware that next year the nation will mark the centenary of the start of World War I. The following five years will see ceremonies remembering significant moments of that conflict. War memorials will play a central role.
Yet, apart from Remembrance Sunday, how often do we look at our local war memorials? When was the last time you stopped and read those names, or went further and looked at the condition of the memorial?”
It continued:
“Simple steps, taken by you and members of your community, can make a significant difference in ensuring our local war memorials are preserved. It is vital we act to stop names and inscriptions fading and disappearing, prevent deterioration due to a lack of maintenance and deter those who contemplate vandalism and theft.”
In my town, we have an avenue of remembrance, where trees were planted in the 1930s that name individuals from Colchester who lost their lives. In the 1st Colchester scout headquarters, there is a stone memorial to the boy scouts who went into the Army from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th Colchester troops and lost their lives. It is such things that localise the war.
What about the blessed or thankful villages, of which there are 32 in England and Wales, but sadly none in Northern Ireland or Scotland, where not a single person lost their lives? There is just one in Essex, the village of Strethall. Today, it has a population of 26. It is arguably the smallest parish in Essex, and possibly in the whole country.
To conclude, the Government’s project will see thousands of schoolchildren visiting the first world war battlefields to ensure that the bravery and suffering of the fallen is not forgotten. Those youngsters will be the great-great-grandchildren of those who lost their lives in the great war, the first world war.
Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)
John Morris said that all history is local. If ever we should respect that saying, it is during the commemoration of the great war.
Last weekend, I was asked by Andrew Hillier and David Swidenbank to visit my local museum in Porthcawl because it is facing closure. They showed me around rooms full of uniforms and artefacts that they had collected in preparation for the commemoration of the war. Sadly, the local council is facing £36 million of cuts over the next two years. There will be cuts to school transport and other essential services. Unfortunately, the museum also faces closure. I hope that the Heritage Lottery Fund will come to the rescue and that that tragic loss to the community of Porthcawl and the history of south Wales will be avoided.
The other reason I visited the museum was that Ceri Joseph, who was taking a history walk that weekend, had often been in touch with me. My inbox is full of communications from Ceri, who has a passion for history that is reminiscent of an amateur detective. I have talked to her over many years about the names on the Porthcawl war memorial. She has spent months and years researching the stories and uncovering who the people on the war memorial were. In the words of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, she has brought them “in from the cold”. Some of them were local and some had relatives who lived locally. It is not necessarily just local people who are named on war memorials, because anybody could put a name forward. Some people appear on several war memorials. The names of some local people who died do not appear at all.
Mr Gray
What the hon. Lady is describing strikes a chord with the work that is being done by my constituent Richard Broadhead to research the lost dead of the first world war. About 60 men from Wiltshire and no doubt many from south Wales died shortly after the end of the first world war of wounds and other causes associated with the war, but are not commemorated on war memorials or on Commonwealth War Graves Commission headstones. That is something we ought to correct.
Mrs Moon
I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has seen the information that has been sent out by the war heritage all-party parliamentary group this week, which identifies where there are war graves in our constituencies, but I have found it very moving and extremely helpful. I was grateful to be able to pass that information on to my local history society. The museum intends to do a lot of work with schools, present exhibitions around the town, and put together a world war one trench so that people can get some idea of what local people and volunteers experienced.
Ceri also helped me personally with my family history. I have lived all my life with two faded photographs of Albert Edward Ironside, my grandfather. Apart from a small pocket diary written during active service in France and Belgium, I have his “Soldiers’ Small Book”, the two photographs, his will, and the King George memorial penny that was sent to the families of those who served and died on the front line. My grandfather was a member of the Royal Engineers and responsible for providing signals communication. Ceri and her husband plan to visit all the graves of those from Porthcawl who died, and they have generously offered also to visit my grandfather’s grave. I, too, have visited that grave, mainly because I wanted to take my son and so that my grandfather would somehow know that his life had carried on with four grandchildren and, to date, eight great-grandchildren and nine great-great-grandchildren—none of them mine so far.
The first world war was declared on 4 August 1914. My grandfather left his wife and son—my father, then aged 18 months—and went to Ireland in preparation for the war as part of the British Expeditionary Force. On Thursday 13 August he embarked on the SS Matheson, and arrived in Le Havre on 14 August. The next diary entries for the next few days record lots of rain and a unique experience of the first train journeys to the front:
“Station platforms were all crowded with people to see us go by. We got chocolate and cigarettes in galore and splendid reception.”
On 23 August he records:
“We rested for the day. The war commenced around here at 12 o’clock, the firing was terrible to stand all day and all night. We are about 2 miles from the firing line. Saw 2 German aeroplanes above our head.”
This was the start of the first battle of Mons, and in the next few days the British Army was in retreat. He records:
“Passed through Mons at Bavay stayed at Wwaso for a rest, we were exposed to shell fire for 3 hours before we retired. The shells fell in the town as we were leaving it. We had to leave everything behind us, cables and communications lines as we could not pick them up on account of the closeness of the Germans. We were lucky to get away at all.”
Then the diary jumps.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
Most people retreated from the battle of Mons, but two battalions did not—the Norfolks and the Cheshires. They were surrounded and they fought to the last. Even the commanding officer was killed.
Mrs Moon
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that moving information.
It is less well known that the soldiers who fled lived without food and water, their boots filling with blood from bloated feet. When they arrived at Monthyon, my grandfather records that they
“stayed there for the night properly knocked out both horses and men. We found this place upside down with the people, their houses its terrible to see these poor people on the road in a large cart and they don’t know where to go for safety. It’s heartbreaking to see them.”
We need to remember all those civilians who suffered horrific experiences during the first world war.
The entry for 17 October is revealing:
“Very fine morning, all my chums congratulated me on my birthday. We got a blanket served out to us. We have had nothing to cover us since we came out. Severe fighting is going all along the canal.”
On 29 October he says:
“Terrific firing all day and night. The Indian troops came here to relieve us. They look a fine lot of men—Ghurkhas, Sikhs and Punjabs.”
The diary covers only the first year of the war, and I knew little of the rest of his experience. Ceri, however, helped me uncover more information, and I hope that that is the sort of work that local museums and societies will do for many, bringing their family members back to them.
Ceri also brought to my attention the fact that my grandfather’s first world war medal had recently been sold. I thank the hon. Members for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) and for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) for their help in trying to get Britannia Military Antiques and Collectables to bring that medal back to the family. Sadly, despite all the efforts, including letters, e-mails and telephone calls, so far I have not been successful.
Families need to take ownership of the family members who died on behalf of their communities and their country. This is a chance for the country to honour those people and bring them back from the cold.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I regret to say that time is against us this afternoon. Thirteen more hon. Members wish to speak so I am reducing the time limit to five minutes. I am loth to take it lower than that, but I would ask all hon. Members to give some consideration to their colleagues and try to make shorter, pithier speeches so that we can ensure that everybody is able to contribute. Perhaps hon. Members could also be sparing with their interventions unless they are really helpful to the debate.
Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
The great war resulted in death and carnage on a previously unknown and unimagined scale. Not surprisingly, there was an enormous and justified outpouring of public grief that resulted in a major public arts programme in Britain to design and erect memorials to those who had died, and the Imperial—now Commonwealth—War Graves Commission was founded in 1917. We are fortunate to have two commissioners among our Members—my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson) and the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones).
There are now roughly 36,000 memorials to the dead of the great war in Britain which reflect that unprecedented expression of public grief. What they almost all have in common are the inscriptions of the names of those who died. Those names are essential to the act of remembrance—
“Their name liveth for ever more”.
War memorials are everywhere urging remembrance. Not surprisingly many of the war memorials are in churches or within the curtilage of church buildings.
The centenary years of the great war will hopefully stimulate considerable interest in war memorials and monuments and the histories of the names of those inscribed on those monuments. Clive Aslet, the former editor of Country Life, recently wrote a book called, “War Memorial - the story of one village’s sacrifice from 1914-2003”. It took a typical village—Lydford in Devon—and traced the individual history behind all the names on its war memorial. Clive Aslet has commented:
“What I would really like to do for the Centenary of the First World War in 2014 is to set up a project for each village to find out about its own dead. There is so much you could do and it would be a fantastic national and local resource. This book threw up such a richness of material and it really got me up every morning because I became so utterly absorbed by the story of these people’s lives.”
Other communities are already taking up the challenge. Michael Allbrook and Robert Forsyth have written a history of “A Parish at War”—a military record of three villages in my constituency, Deddington, Clifton and Hempton. They say in the preface to their book:
“When the ‘Deddington’ War Memorial was erected in 1922, it was sufficient for the inscription to be simply a name and an initial. Everybody knew them. Now more information is necessary to tell us about these men of Deddington. You will see that the names include men who had emigrated to Australia Canada and New Zealand and still they volunteered to support the land of their birth.”
As my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland has said, it was Government policy that all those who died overseas would be buried where they died, irrespective of their rank. The graves were located overseas, and back home there was a memorial bearing the names of those who had died. It is difficult now to imagine what it must have been like and the enormous grief when, some few years after the great war, memorials were unveiled with the names of those engraved, the memories of whom were still clear and sharp.
Of course, every community had to design, commission and erect its own war memorial. As early as 1915, a newly formed civic arts association was distributing advice about appropriate ways to remember the dead. In 1919, the Victoria and Albert museum put on a war memorials exhibition organised by the Royal Academy of Arts with the intention of directing groups, communities and committees in the right artistic and architectural direction. As early as 1916, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission made the important decision that no distinction was to be made in the formal nature of the memorials between officers and men lying in the same cemeteries. All were equal in death.
Most of us have heard of Mick Jagger, of Rolling Stones fame, but not so many will have heard of his uncle, Charles Sargeant Jagger, who designed both the Royal Artillery memorial in London’s Hyde park corner and the first world war memorial in Paddington station. Driving around Hyde park, one finds it all too easy to take the Royal Artillery memorial for granted—something that one sees all the time but does not always notice. I hope that during the next four years, we will notice all our war memorials and ensure that by 2018 we learn as much as we can about the lives of the men whose names are inscribed upon them, and that every war memorial is restored and remains kempt—memorials to those who died in the great war protecting and guaranteeing our freedoms.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
I will speak only about MPs who died in the first world war, and the couple of MPs who died in the second world war, because sometimes in all the talk about how politicians are out of touch and how we are not all in it together, we forget that at many of the key moments in Britain’s history, Members of this House have been very much in it together.
Within the first few months of the outbreak of the first world war, 139 Unionist MPs and 41 Liberals had signed up. At a time when it was still voluntary, that was a very high percentage of those of service age. All the big political families lost somebody. William Ewart Gladstone’s grandson, Lieutenant William Gladstone, who was 29 and MP for Kilmarnock, died in the Royal Welch Fusiliers on 15 April 1915. Captain Neil Primrose, the Liberal MP for Wisbech and Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury, was only 35 and the second son of former Prime Minister Lord Rosebery. He was awarded the military cross in 1916 and led his squadron into battle in the third battle of Gaza, and died.
Raymond Asquith was a barrister and the only son of the Prime Minister at the beginning of the first world war. He was killed on 15 September 1916, leading 4 Company in an attack on Ginchy in the battle of Flers-Courcelette. Within months, of course, his father lost office. In many ways, perhaps it was easier to oust him, because he was so upset by the loss of his son. Arthur Henderson, the Leader of the Labour party, lost his son, David. As the hon. Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson) said, Bonar Law lost not one but two sons, Charlie and James, and it is perhaps no wonder that his other son, Dick, fought so hard against appeasement in the 1930s, given that so many of his family had already gone.
I want to talk about two particular cases. The first concerns the Cawley family. Harold Cawley was Liberal MP for Heywood and Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Home Secretary. He was the second son of another MP, Frederick Cawley, and was sent to Gallipoli in May 1915 as an aide-de-camp. His younger brother, who was not an MP, died at Mons the day before he set sail. Harold Cawley hated being in a headquarters job, and wrote:
“I have always felt rather a brute skulking behind in comparative safety while my friends are being killed”.
Four of his friends from Rugby were killed on the same day in Gallipoli. He got his wish and of course was killed on 23 September 1915. Ironically, because his letters to his father were from one MP to another MP, they had parliamentary privilege, so the Government could not prevent their being made public. That is one reason we know about the disasters of the Dardanelles campaign. Even more sadly, his other brother, Oswald—this is now the third son—who became an MP when his father was made a peer in 1918, was also keen to fight, became a captain in the 10th King’s Shropshire Light Infantry, was shot in the arm on 22 August, got his wound dressed, went back into the fray and was later shot in the jaw, this time fatally.
There are three shields from the first world war that I think are missing from the Chamber. The first is for Dr John Esmonde, who was the Irish nationalist MP for North Tipperary from 1910 until his death on 17 April 1915, when he was serving as a medical doctor in the Army medical corps. It is true that, in one sense, he was not a combatant and, according to his death certificate, died from pneumonia and heart failure consequent on the strain of overwork, but several other MP casualties are commemorated in the Chamber who died as a result of accidents rather than as combatants.
The second is Lieutenant Tom Kettle, who was an ardent home rule MP for East Tyrone between 1906 and 1910. He was gun-running for the national volunteers in Belgium when the war came, but reckoning that it was the war of civilisation against barbarians, he spent several weeks in what he called
“the agony of the valiant Belgian nation”.
Then, despite poor health, he applied time and again for active service on the western front in one of the Irish regiments. He was killed.
The third is Charles Lyell, who died of pneumonia in 1918 as assistant military attaché in Washington having served two periods as PPS to Asquith, the Prime Minister, and devoting himself wholeheartedly to the war effort. I think it is a shame that these three are not commemorated in the Chamber. I have written to the Speaker and I hope that this will be taken up.
With that, I echo all the comments of the many others who have spoken.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
I hope that this will be the first of a number of occasions on which we are able to debate the causes, conduct and consequences of the first world war. The causes are many and include: the Austro-Hungarian empire’s desire to control the Balkans; the German desire to continue Bismarck’s work on expansionism; the French desire to gain revenge for Germany’s victory in battle in 1871; and Russia’s anxiety after its defeat in Japan and its civil war problems. Compounding that were the interrelations between the royal families across Europe and the agreements and ententes cordiales that existed.
As an officer I am keen to understand the details and the importance of the conduct of the war to learn lessons for the future. We have not asked why the war lasted so long. Britain was certainly not prepared for the war; the Crimea was the last main one, and then there were colonial adventures, if we can call them that. The Russo-Japanese conflict was a bad influence on us; the impact of firepower was then understood but the wrong examples were taken from the use of the bayonet, which I am afraid influenced our senior commanders.
It was those senior commanders who were not ready to be engaged in modern warfare. They were looking through the prism of the 19th century. War was seen as noble, structured and decisive; decision-making was very much controlled from the top in an hierarchical, autocratic structure, mostly, dare I say, by cavalry officers, which I am glad to say is no longer the case. It is no wonder that this Army—trained as much for the sports field as the battlefield, bred from narrow regimental and Army loyalties and led by a higher command that was a stickler for tradition and suppressive of criticism— took far too long to defeat the enemy.
The British commanders expected to win through their offensive spirit, the mobility of attack and using phrases such as “at all costs” and “regardless of loss”. Indeed General Smith-Dorrien, Commander of II Corps, was relieved of his command for daring to ask permission to retreat. We are now very familiar with the locations of these battles; Mons, Ypres, Passchendaele, Loos and so forth. The fundamental problem across all of them was that the antiquated command structure actually prevented battalion and brigade commanders from exploiting wins—unwilling to leverage any success until new orders arrived.
Those artillery barrages that we learned so much about and have seen in footage did not cut down the barbed wire or destroy the enemy trenches to give the foot soldiers an advantage when charging across no man’s land. As has been said, the most vivid example of that is the battle of the Somme on 1 July 1916, when 57,000 casualties were suffered in a single day; the biggest number ever in the British Army. Not until new tactics emerged—with battalion and brigade commanders given freedom in decision-making and combined warfare developed, with greater use of the tank and the aeroplane— was that stalemate broken in the battles of Hamel and Amiens.
We are still in fingertip touch with that war through the memories of our parents, grandparents and other relatives. My grandfather was a survivor of the battle of the Somme, from the Manchester regiment. He was blinded in one eye and throughout his life bits of shrapnel came to the surface and had to be removed.
The consequences of that war are still evident today. Britain as a nation was broke, and its place in the world changed as the map of Europe was redrawn to create something close to what we know today. Socially, every town, city and village had to come to terms with a loss of life on a scale that is hard to comprehend today. The war was entered into with enthusiasm but bitterly questioned in retrospect as Britain was robbed of a generation of men and had to adapt to a new world order.
I hope that the commemorations, 100 years on, will not be an exercise in brushing up our history and dates. I hope that we as a nation, in every city, town and village, will reflect on the scale of the sacrifice, given so resolutely by our own relatives only two generations ago, that has helped to define who we are today.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
This Sunday, like many colleagues, I shall be at my borough’s annual presentation of wreaths at the war memorial. Our memorial is a circle on Islington green. It was designed to show how people can come together after conflict, not in a spirit of victory but through a desire for no more war to take place. Later that day, we will lay wreaths at the site of the casualty department of the former Royal Northern hospital. To commemorate the thousands of local people who lost their lives in world war one, there was a public collection that resulted in the building of an accident and emergency department there, on the basis of a need for something tangible that people could live from, rather than die from. It is a very appropriate memorial.
When we look at the war memorials—and when we remember the Pals regiments that colleagues have mentioned—we see dozens of names from the same family. We see how one generation was completely wiped out, with many brothers dying alongside each other. I recall looking at a huge war memorial in Sospel in southern France. It commemorated the people of that town, and it was clear that many members of the same families had died in the Franco-Prussian war, the first world war and the second world war. That series of wars wiped out generations.
As a child growing up in a small village in Wiltshire, I recall talking to old men who breathed with enormous difficulty. They told me that they had suffered “the gas” in the first world war. We have to remember those who suffered and those who died. We remember them with poetry and with hope. Many brilliant poems have been written about the first world war, as well as brilliant pieces of music such as Ralph Vaughan Williams’s “The Lark Ascending”, which he dreamed up in the trenches. In the lull between the fighting, he could see the larks above the fields; their song was drowned out as the guns started up again. Nigel Kennedy played it brilliantly at the last night of the Proms earlier this year.
In commemorating all those who died, we must remember that there were also many who opposed the war, as my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) pointed out. There were massive anti-war meetings in Finsbury Park in my constituency well into the first world war. The international women’s conference against the war and in favour of peace took place in The Hague in 1915. It obviously did not stop the war, but it did influence President Woodrow Wilson and the 14 points that he later produced.
The first world war was a culmination of the rivalry between nations and empires; it was a commercial war in many ways. It was envisaged in J. A. Hobson’s brilliant work on imperialism in 1902, in which he predicted that there would be a war between the European nations because the tension and the arms expenditure were so great. There are serious lessons to be learned from that.
The map of the middle east was drawn as a result of the first world war. The Sykes-Picot agreement, which was revealed during the war, after the Russian revolution, showed the intention of Britain and France to carve up the middle east for themselves. The League of Nations was unsuccessful, but it represented an attempt at the end of the first world war to work out an international order that would prevent the same level of carnage from befalling another generation. In many ways, the League of Nations was doomed before it even started, because of the behaviour of the powers at the negotiations that resulted in the treaty of Versailles. Instead of bringing about a peace, those powers sought to impose a victors’ justice so, for example, the people of New Guinea stopped being subjects of the German empire and became a mandated people under the power of Australia, while the people of the middle east came to live under mandated territories of Britain and France. Many of the problems that the world saw later arose from the first world war.
During the years of discussion about the war, let us try to ensure that, in memory of them, we talk about those who opposed it and those who died in it. Above all, we should bring up our children to try to look for a world of peace—a world where we can settle grievances and differences, rather than feeding an arms race all around the world that can lead only to another war, such as the tragedies of the Congo, Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan. Let us try to look to a world of peace and hope, not another war.
Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn). For once, I agree with him, given what he says about commemoration. I add my congratulations to the Minister who, as the shadow Minister said, has shown such dedication in getting us to this stage. He has dealt with many sensitivities, and we are genuinely grateful for his work.
We are commemorating something that is, in a sense, still alive. As the hon. Member for Islington North made clear, for the middle east, the Sykes-Picot agreement and the Balfour declaration are still live issues. The issues of the war became more personal for me four years ago when, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood), I visited Bosnia and Herzegovina to work with Bosniac refugees. I recall being sat down in the biggest mosque in Sarajevo to meet the grand mufti, the head of the Muslim faith in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I remember him saying in really good English, “The last time this country was run properly was under the Habsburg monarchy, and we still call this mosque the Emperor mosque because the Emperor Franz Joseph restored it.” We should think about what has happened in Bosnia and Herzegovina since that time, which suggests that there is an element of truth in that. We are officially to start our national commemorations on 4 August, but we should not forget 28 June 1914, when the Archduke was shot, and what happened subsequently. We still have responsibility to mend those terrible events that happened in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
As someone who was a history teacher, I was a little perturbed by the Minister’s comment about how few people knew much about the first world war and who fought it. Given that I taught for 28 years, I hope that none of those people were in my classes. If the Minister has names, I would like to see them.
Much of the first world war is still with us, so that must be a key aspect of understanding and education. As my hon. Friends the Members for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) and for Reading West (Alok Sharma) pointed out, imperial troops made an unbelievable contribution to the war. There is a Sikh memorial in Belgium. The Indian memorial at Neuve Chapelle commemorates 4,742 Indian troops of no known grave. I saw Jewish graves at Lijssenthoek military cemetery, and I have seen Muslim graves organised in line with Mecca. I have seen a grave for seven people from a Chinese labour battalion who died in the first world war.
Given the diversity of people who live in Britain, we have an opportunity. As a teacher in Tottenham in 1972, I faced the question of how to teach the first world war to classes of pupils from different religious backgrounds and ethnicities. Of course, such teaching could be done, because a huge number of the grandfathers of such pupils would have been there. It has been calculated that about 1.2 million non-white soldiers fought across the first world war theatre. We therefore have an opportunity to use these commemorations to bring people together in a practical way, as people realise that their family histories of the war might not be much different from those of families who live next door.
I pay tribute to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission for all the work it has done. Incredibly, I was able to discover my great uncle, William Ollerenshaw of the Lancashire Fusiliers, who died on 27 June 1916. I was also impressed by the commission’s recent work on the “In From The Cold” project. It has sent me a chart showing that, in Lancaster and Fleetwood alone, there are 161 war graves scattered across different churchyards. For instance, two soldiers are buried in Glasson churchyard, three in Pilling churchyard, and 38 in Fleetwood cemetery, and they will be remembered. I am extremely grateful for all that detailed work, of which the commission should be proud.
There is still a memorial village in Lancaster and Fleetwood, and Fleetwood has a memorial park, which has just received money so that it can be maintained and brought back into use. That will not be forgotten in the constituency.
I am grateful for the debate, but I am particularly grateful for the hard work done by the Minister over a number of years. I hope that he is proud of where he has got to as a result.
Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)
It is my honour to be the chair of the Northern Ireland world war one centenary committee. I also serve, along with other Members, on the national advisory board. I join others in commending the Minister for the excellent work that he has done in preparing for next year’s commemorative events, and I have greatly enjoyed working with him.
The hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) spoke of looking out of the window of his constituency office. When I look out of the window of my constituency office in Lisburn, I can see the war memorial, on the front of which is the word “Thiepval”. Thiepval is, of course, synonymous with the battle of the Somme, and it was the 36th (Ulster) Division that emerged from Thiepval wood on that fateful day, 1 July 1916, and charged towards the German lines. Indeed, the Ulster division was the only division of X Corps to achieve its objective that morning, but it paid a terrible price in doing so: 5,500 soldiers were killed, wounded or missing in action.
The war memorials in my constituency commemorate those men. There are war memorials in Lisburn, Hillsborough and Dromore, and there is a war memorial hall in Lower Ballinderry. Northern Ireland is no different from other parts of the United Kingdom in that respect. However, the battle of the Somme left its mark on that small community. Captain Wilfred Spender, who was an officer in the 36th (Ulster) Division, wrote these words:
“I am not an Ulsterman but yesterday, the 1st July, as I followed their amazing attack, I felt that I would rather be an Ulsterman than anything else in the world.”
We remember the valour of those men. Of the nine Victoria Crosses given to British soldiers who fought in the battle of the Somme, four were awarded to soldiers in the 36th (Ulster) Division, and the division won nine VCs during the course of the war.
While remembrance will be an important theme for us in Northern Ireland, another will be reconciliation. As hon. Members have reminded us, during the first world war, the island of Ireland was united under the Crown as part of the United Kingdom. The 10th and 16th (Irish) Divisions fought alongside the 36th (Ulster) Division. We think of regiments now extinct such as the old Royal Irish Regiment, the Connaught Rangers, the Royal Dublin Fusiliers, the Prince of Wales Leinster Regiment, the Royal Munster Fusiliers, and the South Irish Horse. We also think of existing regiments such as the Irish Guards, and of the current Royal Irish Regiment, along with its antecedents, including the Royal Irish Rifles, the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers and the Royal Irish Fusiliers, and of course the North Irish Horse, the first regiment in which my brother served when he joined the Army. He now commands the Royal Yeomanry here in London.
Earlier, I quoted Captain Wilfred Spender. Let me now quote another brave soldier: Captain Willie Redmond, who was a Member of this House. He was an Irish nationalist, the brother of the leader of the then Irish nationalist party. Willie Redmond fervently and passionately advocated that nationalists should join the British Army and fight for freedom on the western front. In December 1916, he wrote to his friend Arthur Conan Doyle:
“It would be a fine memorial to the men who have died so splendidly if we could, over their graves, build up a bridge between North and South.”
We cannot change the history of the century that followed the first world war, nor can we alter the constitutional realities today on the island of Ireland. I am a proud Ulsterman and a proud Unionist, but I will say this: the time has come to build those bridges. The time has come to use this shared history of the first world war to build bridges across the island, built on tolerance and mutual respect, in recognition of the brave men who went out and fought for this country and for our freedom, and who sacrificed their lives. Their memory is no less worthy of remembrance than the soldiers of the 36th (Ulster) Division who died alongside them at the Somme and Messines, and other battle places. That does not mean that people have to stop believing in what they believe—that I have to stop being a Unionist, or that my fellow islanders who live in the Republic have to stop being nationalists—but let us together share the history and the remembrance of those who died in that fateful war.
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
I am very grateful to have been called to speak in this debate on the commemoration of the first world war.
I am delighted to report that both my grandfathers, having served as gunnery officers on the western front and at Jutland, survived. If they had not, I would not be here. My paternal grandfather, Kenneth Colvile, was a member of the Royal Garrison Artillery, while my maternal grandfather, Charles Neate, served on board HMS Valiant, a Queen Elizabeth class battleship, at Jutland. It is a real privilege for me to be able to pay tribute to those members of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines who served in the Devonport fleet, which played such a significant role in the first world war.
Five of the 14 ships lost at the battle of Jutland were Devonport-based ships. I am most fortunate that both my grandfathers left eye-witness accounts of their experiences, and I would like to share a little bit of one of them, from my grandfather who was on the Valiant. He said:
“I went on watch at 12.30 pm for the afternoon watch over the 6" anti-submarine guns; during the latter part of that watch signals began to fly round a good bit, steam for full speed, action stations and so on and then it became known to me that the enemy wireless signals were growing very loud and strong and the Bridge passed down that our light cruisers had got in touch with two enemy light cruisers and seemed likely to cut them off and destroy them.
Just as I was about to be relieved we closed up and got ready for instant action. The usual preparations such as changing into clean clothes, provision of fresh water and food in turrets and other places had to be left undone and we had bare time to get the ship herself ready...
On arrival at my lofty station we saw the Battle-Cruisers on our starboard bow and at about 4.45 pm the Hun battle-cruisers appeared on the port bow and the two squadrons opened action.
We did not open just yet. To realise our difficulties you must try and visualise the light and position. The range was about 10-11 miles. Behind the enemy were blue-black clouds and a low lying mist and behind us was the sun and a sharp clear horizon with no mist. The actual sun was behind clouds high in the sky so they had no glare in their glasses. Thus you will see that the Germans were almost invisible and we were silhouetted against a bright clear background so they could get good readings from their range finders and also mark their fall of shot.”
I am delighted to be able to report that Plymouth will be playing a very significant role in commemorating the first world war, and we will be taking that very seriously. Apart from next year’s national Armed Forces day taking place on Saturday 28 June, on Saturday 4 August we will be having prayers on the Hoe with speeches and the reading of the declaration of war followed by a gun salute from the citadel with a two-minute silence and laying of wreaths. That will be followed by the “Last Post”. Both those days will provide all of us in Plymouth with a real opportunity to express our gratitude to all those brave servicemen and women, and to demonstrate our thanks for their sacrifices.
We all have some real lessons to learn from this most savage war. On election to this place three years ago, I gave a commitment that I would campaign for better treatment for our veterans. I am very grateful that the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) has done so much in that regard. May I also pay tribute to the previous Government’s decision to allow those people who were shot for desertion when they were suffering from shell shock and mental health challenges to be pardoned?
I represent a naval garrison city so I see and hear at first hand the real stresses and strains that our veterans face. Indeed, this week, I heard from an Afghan veteran who told me that he is not looking forward to Sunday because he will have to remember many of his friends and his fellow servicemen who died on active military service. That is why we must remember.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
First, may I declare an interest, in that I am a commissioner on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, along with my friend the hon. Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson)? I consider that to be a great privilege, as I know he does. The CWGC commemorates the 1.7 million people who died in the two wars. I wish to record my thanks to Alan Pateman-Jones, its director general, and his staff for the work they do in more than 153 different countries. I also thank the Governments of New Zealand, India, Australia, Canada and South Africa for their contributions, all of whom will be joining in the commemorations of the 1914 to 1918 war.
I wish to mention a fact that not many people recognise. We all see the iconic sites in France, but we also have 170,000 graves in this country, as the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) mentioned. Every community will have CWGC graves in their local churchyard or municipal cemetery, and I am pleased that the CWGC, along with the all-party group on war heritage, has broken these down by constituency. One thing that I have been working closely on with the CWGC is raising awareness in communities of those graves. One initiative has been to erect Commonwealth war grave signs and, in some cases, information boards, so that local people know that the graves are there and are aware of why they are there.
Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)
I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the good work that the CWGC does. He will know that many graves of Victoria Cross holders across the country are neglected and that only those soldiers who died in battle have their graves covered by the CWGC. May I commend to him the work of the Victoria Cross Trust, a charity, of which I am a patron, that does such good work in restoring the graves of VC heroes across the country?
Mr Jones
I commend that body. The CWGC’s remit is defined by its charter, but the important point is that the CWGC does look after all those graves in the UK that come under its charter. We are talking about either the traditional stones that people will recognise or private memorials. I pay tribute to councillors in the north-east of England, all of whose areas have now erected these green signs. I ask hon. Members of any party who wish to have them erected in their local cemeteries to contact me or the hon. Member for Broadland, as we will be only too willing to help. We have had a bit of a glitch with the Church of England—I am sorry that the Second Church Estates Commissioner, the hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) is not here for this—which seemed to offer a protracted and bureaucratic reason for why we could not put these signs up. I am glad to say that some progress has been made, including in Durham, where the Archbishop of Canterbury, the former Bishop of Durham, seemed to cut through the red tape of the Church of England. It would be nice to see those tasteful signs on all churchyards, just to raise awareness, so that local people know that the graves are there.
Let me now deal with the issues raised by the Minister. I congratulate him on the work he has done on them, because I think he has got this right. There was a real danger that this could go wrong. As he said, it is right that there will be national and international commemorations, but the real focus has to come from below—I totally agree with him on that; local communities have to get involved. I pay tribute to the Heritage Lottery Fund, which is providing grants for local communities, a few of them in my constituency, including Park View school, which has just received a grant for doing a world war one project. I know that there are many others. Pelton Fell memorial park is applying for a grant and a number of other villages want to hold events. Sacriston, for example, wants to hold a village at war event.
I am passionate about ensuring that those who lost their lives are remembered, but another important aspect is what happened in local communities. In the north-east and County Durham, for example, the role of coal mining in the first world war was important, as were the roles of women in munitions factories and the munitions industry in Tyneside.
I am pleased that my hon. Friends the Members for Caerphilly (Wayne David) and for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) mentioned conscientious objectors, because the war was divisive. In the early parts of the conflict, members of the Independent Labour party were very much against the involvement of Britain in the war. There were some notable exceptions and some people broke away, including Clem Attlee, who fought bravely at Gallipoli. One of my predecessors, Jack Lawson, the Member for Chester-le-Street—who, by coincidence, was a member of the Imperial War Graves Commission in the 1920s—fought on the western front, even though he was an ILP member.
There are opportunities for communities not only to remember the first world war but to do some good things about their own history and to ensure that people remember the contribution that everyone made to the war effort. When I was the veterans Minister, I had the privilege of meeting Harry Patch, Bill Stone and Henry Allingham. Sadly, I also attended their funerals. As the Minister said, they were the last living link to the first world war, which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) said, has now passed into history. This is a great opportunity to ensure that future generations not only do not forget but know of the important role that their local communities played in that important part of our great nation’s history.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I shall have to start the wind-ups at 4.48 and there are five speakers left. It is almost impossible. I am going to take the time limit to four minutes, but I implore hon. Members to make room for their colleagues to speak, too, by not necessarily using the full time, short as it is. The time limit is now four minutes, because I think that it is important that every Member gets to speak.
Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)
It was a pleasure to listen to the speech by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) and I commend him for the work he has done. I am sure that he would agree that the stated desire of the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach Enda Kenny to visit a war grave together during the run-up to the centenary is an excellent way of marking the fact that Irishmen, both Unionist and nationalist, fought together for a good cause in the first world war and we should not forget that.
The first world war has captured the imagination of the public. It might have passed from living memory, but people’s desire to find out about it, to walk in the footsteps of the soldiers by visiting the battlefields and to gain an insight into what it must have been like is as keen now as it has probably been in living memory. Perhaps that is because we want to challenge ourselves. In the same circumstances, would we be as brave as people were then?
Throughout the debate, people have mentioned the “Blackadder” version of history and asked whether we are too cynical now as a nation to make the sacrifices that people did then. Through the course of the first world war centenary years we will remember the sacrifices of those who gave their lives and of those who served, both on the front line and to support the people on the front line. It is a reminder of the incredible sacrifices people make and the incredible endurance people have in extreme circumstances. People rise to that challenge generation after generation and it is right that we should remember the sacrifices of the first world war, which were on such an enormous scale.
I remember reading the remarks of my predecessor, Philip Sassoon, who was an MP during the first world war. He felt that the battles at places such as Waterloo seemed Lilliputian compared with Neuve Chapelle, as it was such a totally different experience from anything anyone had seen before.
I want to mention the Step Short project in my constituency, of which I am chairman. I thank the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), who has been to Folkestone to visit the project and see what we are planning: to tell a local story based on rediscovering the role the town played during the war. Folkestone was the major port of embarkation for troops to and from the trenches of the western front. It is estimated that 10 million servicemen came through the town during the war and our major project is to create a memorial arch over the route that they marched down to the ships in the harbour waiting to take them to France. The arch will commemorate not just those who lost their lives and for whom that journey was their last on home soil but everyone who served in the war—soldiers, nurses, people in the supply chains, everyone who was part of the national contribution to the first world war. I hope that people will come and experience what Folkestone has to offer and see the arch, which we will unveil on 4 August next year as our commemoration of the centenary of the outbreak of the war.
I also thank the National Army museum, which will bring an exhibition to Folkestone that will run from June next year for 10 months. It will help tell the story of the home front and the journey to war. Many stories will be rediscovered as part of the first world war centenary.
Another local story I will touch on is that of Walter Tull, whose story was rediscovered by the Dover war memorial project. He was the first black soldier to be commissioned in the British Army, as well as having been the first black professional footballer to play in an outfield position in the professional football leagues. Many such stories will be rediscovered.
Another Folkestone story that is important to us is the role that the town played in accommodating tens of thousands of refugees from Belgium in the first weeks of the war. We gave succour and comfort to people who had been dispossessed of their homes. That is an incredible story of the war, and we will discover more such stories as we go through.
In his poem “Aftermath”, Siegfried Sassoon said:
“Have you forgotten yet?
For the world’s events have rumbled on since those gagged days.”
Next year we have a chance to demonstrate that we have not forgotten.
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)
On the morning of 22 May 1915, 227 people were killed in what is still Britain’s worst rail disaster when a troop train and two other passenger trains collided at Quintinshill near Gretna. Almost all those who died were men from the Leith Battalion of the Royal Scots, who were killed before even reaching the battlefields of Gallipoli that they were heading for on their first posting after training. The vast majority of those who were killed were obviously from Edinburgh and Leith. Of course, in the time before and after hundreds more from the community of Edinburgh died in various battlefields and at sea, but the impact of that rail disaster, because it had such a dramatic effect on one day on people who did not even get to Gallipoli, where they had been expecting to fight, was both dramatic and traumatic.
The disaster is now remembered every year on its anniversary at a war memorial in a cemetery in the centre of my constituency. At one of those commemorations a few years ago I met a grandchild, the great-grandchildren and the great-great-grandchildren of a victim of that disaster who were pleased that the local community was now remembering their ancestor. I am glad to say that the Quintinshill disaster is recognised by both the UK and Scottish Governments as one of the Scottish national events to be remembered in the commemorations of world war one. It reminds us that the way in which the war impacted on individuals and communities was not just at the front and at sea but in places a long way from the battlefield and in ways that we do not always appreciate.
The bodies of those who died in that disaster were brought back to the Drill hall in Leith. That building is now the Out of the Blue centre, a successful arts and cultural centre. Appropriately, in that very building a couple of months ago, I was privileged to take part in the launch of one of the community projects funded by the Heritage Lottery Fund. It was a project organised by the Disability History Scotland group, which aims to look at how the experience of disability caused directly or indirectly by world war one had consequences for families and communities, for social policy, disability groups and disability rights campaigns for generations until now.
That is again a reminder of how the consequences of war extend far beyond its original participants in all sorts of ways and down the decades. Besides the project that I mentioned, I know that others in my community have sought, and I hope received, funding from the HLF. I have encouraged them to do so and I hope that the publicity about today’s debate will encourage other groups to come forward with projects for their community.
Another ceremony that has recently been revived is at the war memorial at Newhaven village in my constituency, a fishing village in the past and a very small fishing community now. It takes place every year at the war memorial attached to the local school. It brings together the wider community and the young people at the school to remember what their forefathers fought for in the first world war. It is an opportunity to remind young people of what happened at that time and to look, as many colleagues have said, at reconciliation and work for peace so that future generations will not have to go through what so many went through in the first world war.
Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. I shall make a brief contribution.
I was born on Remembrance day and I have always attended Remembrance day services—those cold November mornings, the leaves falling on the ground, the sound of Elgar’s “Nimrod” and the stories of my grandparents. That may explain my long-standing interest in military history. I believe that the only way we can shape a better future is by understanding and honouring those who have fallen for this country.
I have been struck by the respect and solemnity with which the public regard Remembrance day and have been raising money for poppies across my constituency over the past few weekends, as have many hon. Members. I ran the London marathon earlier this year, raising money for the Royal British Legion. I pay tribute to my constituents. We are raising money for the Todger Jones VC bronze statue. Todger Jones was a Cheshire Regiment lad who won his Victoria Cross at Morval on the Somme in 1916.
War is an inescapable truth and to leave any conflict saying that it is the last would be either naive or wilfully misleading, but what we can do is recognise the importance of what is done, ensure that the skills and requirements protect the armed forces as much as possible, and remember those who have made such sacrifices in our country’s name. That is why I am so proud to speak today and take part in the commemoration service across Weaver Vale this weekend. Those who have fought for Britain may be gone, but they are always in our thoughts and in our memories.
We pay tribute to Tommy Atkins—Tommy Atkins, like Todger Jones and my grandfather, who, being a Manchester lad, wanted to join up in 1914 but was not old enough. The recruiting sergeant knew that he was not old enough so, along with his mates who were under age, he hot-footed it to Manchester Piccadilly station, got on the west coast line down to London Euston and joined up at the first recruiting office, which just happened to be the Middlesex Regiment. I make that same journey every Monday morning down to this place and I never fail to remember those brave Tommy Atkins from all parts of the country who made the ultimate sacrifice.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
On Saturday, in common with many other Members of Parliament and millions of people throughout this country, we will commemorate and remember those who died in the first and the second world wars. In particular, in my constituency we commemorate the North and the South Staffordshire Regiments with their VCs and those who did not attain great gallantry medals but who fought the battles, fought the war, saved this country and saved our democracy.
I pay tribute to the Royal Irish Rifles because, as has already been mentioned, it is remarkable that despite all the troubles between us and those who live in the southern part of Ireland, so many people are now touched by the fact that we are coming together. We commemorate people who fought—people like Vincent Cullen—because they were loyal, they were real and they were brave. They fought with our people and we should never forget them.
Finally, I should like to put it on record that Doug Lakey, who came here this afternoon and was the only person in the Special Gallery, as far as I know, was with my father on the day he was killed in the second world war. He is a constituent of the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), and I thought he would like to know that. Doug Lakey is 93 now. He has had a fantastic day and it has been a wonderful occasion for me to be able to have him here for the first time in the House of Commons.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Madam Deputy Speaker, I am very grateful for your permission to contribute to this debate, particularly as the first ever televised session of the Intelligence and Security Committee meeting today prevented me from attending by far the greater part of the debate. I shall just make a few very brief remarks and hope that I am not unwittingly repeating things that others have already raised.
We all have our different methods by which we have been in contact with or affected by the first world war. Mine dates back to my days as a schoolboy, when I became friendly with a veteran of the Royal Navy, Mr Leslie Horton, who served from 1915 to 1945 in just about every variety of royal naval ship. He served on the destroyer HMS Landrail in the first world war, for example, and the S-class submarine HMS Seadog in the second world war. The force of character and personality of all those people who have been through these vicissitudes, ordeals and dangers cannot help but transmit itself to people of a younger generation.
In the brief time available I want to make one point for the Minister to consider in his reply. It will not come as a surprise to him, because we have discussed it privately previously. I want to be certain that when, in the course of commemorating the events of the first world war, we focus on particular spikes in the history of that catastrophic conflict, we do not end up focusing solely on those events that marked terrible mistakes and defeats. It is a reality that the generalship behind the battle of the Somme was sadly lacking—some would say it was grossly negligent. It is a fact that the mistakes made at the battle of the Somme were repeated at the battle of Passchendaele, but it is also a fact that by the time we got to 8 August 1918, the lessons of those disastrous earlier offences had been learnt, however belatedly. The battle of Amiens, which hardly anyone has heard of by comparison with the earlier battles, was a stupendous victory for which our forces gain too little credit.
Of course commemoration is about reconciliation, but we must not blind ourselves to the fact that those battles took place not on the territory of a country that did the invading, but by definition on the territory of countries that had been invaded. It should be a matter of pride for the people of this country that we fought on the right side in the first world war. Indeed, the failure to draw the right lessons from what happened at the end of the war had the consequence that after the second world war we were determined there would have to be unconditional surrender—so that next time nobody could argue, as they had done after 1918, that they had not really been defeated. Let us of course reach out the hand of friendship and remember the terrible mistakes made, but let us remember the victories, too, and the justice of the cause for which British soldiers, sailors and airmen fought and died.
Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling me at the end of the debate; I was in a Committee meeting and so was unable to contribute earlier.
Burton can take the credit for having been home to the most decorated non-commissioned soldier of the first world war, William Coltman, who won not only the Victoria Cross but the distinguished conduct medal and bar and the military medal. He won those amazing medals as a pacifist. He was a stretcher bearer because his religious beliefs prevented him from fighting, but he was a brave men. He is a man that Burton is very proud of.
I speak as a patron of the Victoria Cross Trust. As has been mentioned, there are hundreds of graves of heroes across the country, including VC winners, that are not tended by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission because those brave servicemen died after they had been decommissioned and when they were no longer in the Army. It is a terrible shame for our country. In my opinion it is a national disgrace that the graves of those men who did such great acts of bravery and valour on behalf of this country and democracy are not tended. We see these crumbling gravestones and overgrown memorials to such brave men, and it is time that we looked at what we can do about them.
The Victoria Cross Trust is a charity that was established by a gentleman called Gary Stapleton. With no public money, he and his band of volunteers have restored very many graves, up and down the country, of VC heroes. It is time that we looked at what we could do as a Government to try to support them. They do not ask for huge amounts of Government funding, but I am sure there must be ways we can help. This is the big society in action—people going out in the community, raising money to restore the graves of some of the bravest men of this country. We should commend them and do all we can to support them.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
This has been a very fitting and moving debate. I always feel that the House is at its best on such occasions. I cannot, in the time available, do credit to all the speeches. We heard from the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson), the hon. Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson), my hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones), the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal), my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David), the hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell), my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon), the hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry), my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), the hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood), my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), the hon. Members for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) and for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile), my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins), my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz), and the hon. Members for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans), for Stone (Mr Cash), for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), and for Burton (Andrew Griffiths). All I can say is that it is an honour to have taken part in this debate with them.
How we should approach this commemoration is symbolised by Harry Patch’s insistence that German and British veterans should carry his coffin. For the past 20 years, long before I became a Member of Parliament, I have been attending the remembrance service in Eltham. Over the years, it has become a much more diverse affair. In fact, the people who attend nowadays represent the diversity of the armed forces who took part in the first world war more than they ever have in previous years. It is a real community event with everyone coming together. More recently, we have been happy to welcome a large contingent of the Gurkha community, and it is a pleasure to see how their presence is warmly welcomed by the entire community. British Future’s publication about the first world war refers to
“the graves…of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus lying side by side, just as”
they
“had fought side by side”.
It is often at these times in the field of human conflict that humanity shows its greatest attributes. Whether it is the brotherhood of those diverse cultures or the symbolic events that took place in no man’s land at Christmas 1914, there is more in human nature that binds us than divides us. When Harry Patch sadly passed away in 2009, we lost one of the last direct connections with the British soldiers who fought so bravely in that war. Our generation will be the last to have had direct contact with these soldiers. We must therefore reflect on how the 150th anniversary might be remembered.
When this Chamber suffered a direct hit from a German bomb during the second world war, Winston Churchill instructed that some of the rubble from the bomb damage be incorporated in the renovated Chamber of the House of Commons to remind us not only of the fortitude of those who fought in that war but the damage and harm that was inevitably caused by wars. So this Chamber itself, in a way, has a form of remembrance. That is a reminder that we, as politicians, must exhaust every political and diplomatic avenue before we ever consider sending our armed forces into harm’s way. War is a breakdown of the political process and, as such, can only be the last resort in any conflict.
It has been an honour to take part in this debate. In particular, I pay tribute to the work of the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), and what he has done to bring us to this point. I also pay tribute to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, to the Imperial War Museum, to the BBC for what it has planned over the next four years, and to all the countries of the Commonwealth that will be doing so much to help us to mark this important event in our collective history.
Forty-one million British people lived through the first world war while what was described as the flower of British youth went off to fight. Nine million soldiers lost their lives and 16 million people died overall. For them, we must be a nation at our best when commemorating these events. We must lay the foundations for future generations to go on learning the lessons of just how devastating war can be. If we can achieve that, we will have achieved something that is worthy of those whom we aim to remember.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant)
I thank all Members who have taken part in this very important debate and I am sorry that there is so little time to respond fully to all the important issues and moving stories that have been mentioned.
More than anything else, the Government want engagement with this commemoration. Almost every one of us has discoveries to make about the first world war and our various personal links to it. The issue is important to me: as the mother of a Royal Marine Commando, I understand and appreciate the courage, tenacity and skill of our armed forces. I also understand the pride and anxiety that families feel when those they love go away to serve.
Today’s speeches and interventions by Members stemmed, understandably, from their own interest in the time and their genuine concerns for how war is commemorated. I sensed considerable consensus in the Chamber this afternoon.
The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis), and the hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell) and others raised the issue of the tone of the commemoration. I absolutely agree with them that this is not a celebration; it is a commemoration. There are no surviving veterans from the first world war, but it is up to us to pay respect and to ensure that future generations do not forget and that there will be no triumphalism or jingoism.
My hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry), the hon. Members for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) and for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) and my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) spoke about the importance of war memorials and the various plans for research, restoration and having these important structures listed. Those are exactly the sorts of projects that the Government programme is designed to support and I wish those concerned every success.
On the issue raised right at the end by my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), when my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Defence opened the debate he mentioned the battle of Amiens, which was a victory. I think my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East may have missed that reference.
The role of women has been raised by several Members and it will certainly be commemorated. Women played an essential role in the war. We need to recognise the huge impact that the war had on women, their place in society, the suffragette movement and employment.
My hon. Friend the Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson) and others spoke about the importance of engaging with our young people. One of our key objectives for the centenary is to engage with them by making connections between young people today and young people who fought and died a century ago. Our battlefield visit programme will connect young people with battlefields and, I hope, offer them a special experience that they can share with their classmates.
It was humbling to hear about the Barnsley Pals, and about the Accrington Pals from the hon. Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones), and about the valiant Todger Jones, William Coltman and Tommy Atkins. It was also moving to hear from my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) about the bravery of the Sikh regiments, and from my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) about the importance of diversity. I reassure Members that this commemoration will help us mark such contributions. It will also make future generations aware of the history of the war so that we can continue to learn from the lessons of the past.
It is clear from what has been said today that many Members have already encouraged their constituents to become involved, and I thank them very much for their efforts. If Members have not already done so, I ask them to tell those in their area about what is being planned and encourage them to find their own links to the first world war, a conflict that, though it took place 100 years ago, remains deeply ingrained in the fabric of our society, our churchyards, our memorials and our heritage buildings, and in the hearts of our families.
Although our Government commemoration is proudly led by the Government, the spirit is rightly owned by all of the people of this country. I hope that what we have said this afternoon has assured Members from all parties that we are working hard to make sure that the UK’s first world war centenary commemoration will be solemnly, respectfully and properly remembered.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered commemoration of the First World War.
Redevelopment of the old Royal Ordnance Factory site (Puriton, Somerset)
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)
I am presenting a petition of 1,298 signatures from the Bridgwater and West Somerset constituency.
The petition states:
The Petition of residents of Puriton, Somerset,
Declares that the Petitioners believe that the proposed redevelopment of the old Royal Ordnance Factory site is unacceptable on grounds of air pollution, noise, village access, visual impact and the overall character of the development.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons take note of the plans in advance of consideration by the local planning authority.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P001275]
Group B Streptococcus (Newborn Babies)
(11 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)
I am delighted and honoured to have secured this debate on group B streptococcus, which is also known as group B strep or GBS. GBS is the most common cause of serious infection in newborn babies. In the UK, it is the most common cause of meningitis in babies in their first weeks of life. With prompt and aggressive treatment, most sick babies will recover from GBS infection, but even with the best medical care, about 10% of them will die, and some of the survivors will suffer lifelong problems, including 50% of those who recover from GBS meningitis.
The subject was last raised in the House 10 years ago by my right hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Mr Cameron), who is now Prime Minister. There has been some progress but, given his current position, it would be encouraging if we could see more. I shall quote his words at the end of my speech.
The rate of confirmed cases of group B strep infection in newborn babies increased by almost 50% between 1991 and 2010. The true rate of infection, which includes cases that are not confirmed through the identification of the bacteria, but in which GBS is strongly suspected by clinicians, is likely to be several times higher. The issue is therefore not only serious, but one that is becoming more serious.
We have known for a long time that the key risk factor for a newborn baby in developing GBS is the mother carrying GBS at delivery. The UK guidelines state that if GBS has been detected during the current pregnancy from a swab or culture from a pregnant woman, she should be offered intravenous antibiotics in labour to minimise the risk of GBS developing in her newborn baby.
The UK’s risk-based strategy to reduce GBS infection in newborn babies was introduced by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists in 2003, but there is no evidence that it has appreciably reduced the incidence of this devastating infection. In 2003, there were 229 reported cases of GBS infection in babies aged nought to six days; in 2011, there were 281 cases. On that evidence alone, I suggest to the Minister that the risk-based strategy has failed demonstrably and that we need to consider new alternatives.
One UK case study found that 21% of women carried GBS, and that 22% had risk factors for GBS infection developing in their newborn baby and would therefore be offered intravenous antibiotics in labour. However, only 29% of women with risk factors actually carried GBS. Using risk factors alone means that a high proportion of women not carrying GBS will be offered intrapartum antibiotics, while many actually carrying it will not.
Nadine Dorries
Researchers stated:
“The most striking finding that has implications for clinical practice and policy is the low sensitivity of risk factor based screening, compared with PCR or culture tests in predicting maternal and neonatal GBS colonisation—”
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
I warmly commend my hon. Friend on bringing the issue before the House. I have a constituent who lost a child as a result of it, so it is something that I take seriously. Is my hon. Friend pleased, as I am, to see that Public Health England is now adopting gold standard enriched culture testing in its eight regional laboratories? Does she welcome that as a small advance in this important area?
Nadine Dorries
I welcome my hon. Friend’s intervention, and I will go on to talk about the gold standard culture medium.
The researchers continued that the sensitivity of such screening was
“below that which we considered to be a minimally acceptable sensitivity for our study—which calls into question the validity of the current UK policy. Moreover, consistent with previous evidence of practice variation, the risk factor-based screening policy was poorly adhered to, with one-third of women with indications for IAP not treated.”
Despite those authors and numerous others recommending routine screening as cost-effective in the UK, the UK national screening committee continues to recommend the risk-based approach.
Most countries that have national strategies against GBS infection offer routine antenatal testing for GBS. Those countries have seen the incidence of early onset disease fall dramatically, such as by more than 80% in the US and Spain. That compares favourably with the result of the risk-based approach in the UK under which, as I have said, the number of infections has increased. If we know that the risk-based strategy we are adopting is not working because infections are beginning to increase, yet countries such as Spain are seeing an 80% reduction, should we not consider the cost-effectiveness of moving to a system that we know will reduce the number of poorly babies in our intensive care units that have GBS-induced meningitis and other complications?
Studies show that testing for GBS in late pregnancy, as well as offering tests to women found to carry GBS or who have other recognised risk factors, is more cost-effective than the current risk-based strategy. A risk-based strategy is poor at predicting women who will be carrying GBS in labour, and therefore women for whom antibiotics in labour would potentially prevent devastating infections in their newborn babies.
Recently published research shows that although women want to be informed about GBS and offered testing for it during pregnancy, that is not happening. At less than £12, the tests are not that expensive, and the antibiotic recommended during labour if a woman is found to carry GBS in pregnancy is cheap and cost-effective. It is penicillin, which is shown to be exceptionally safe, as well as being a narrow-spectrum drug that is unlikely to cause greater resistance later.
Most NHS pathology services currently use culture media that are general purpose and identify GBS in only about 60% of carriers. At the request of the chief medical officer, Dame Sally Davies, the enriched culture medium test that my hon. Friend mentioned will be made available throughout England from 1 January 2014. That will identify about 90% of carriers, and it is the gold standard for that purpose, under Public Health England’s regional laboratory standard operating procedure. The results of the GBS test are about 85% predictive of carriage status for up to five weeks. It should be used to identify GBS carriage wherever there is an indication. These sensitive tests have not previously been widely available within the NHS when requested by the health professionals and pregnant women.
I have some key questions for the Minister. Will he use this debate as an opportunity to make a statement welcoming the gold standard enriched culture medium test for group B strep carriage, which is being made available from January 2014 and which can be used to assess carrier state if there is an indication? From this point on, how does the Minister plan to reduce the incidence of GBS infection in newborn babies when the current risk-based strategy, introduced in 2003, has been shown not to be effective? Is there a target rate for GBS infection in newborn babies? I have always derided targets, but in this case setting a target for the reduction of GBS infections may be a way to introduce routine testing.
Will the Minister confirm that the audit of practice suggested by the UK national screening committee to establish how well the new guidance is being implemented at a national level will study the actual practice taking place in maternity units, rather than simply being an audit of policies without any check on whether they are being applied in practice, because we know that these policies are not being put into practice in maternity units? What is the time scale for the feedback and advice to trusts about how they can further improve their adherence to the RCOG and National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidelines on the prevention of neonatal GBS disease? What provision is being made for telling pregnant women about the risk of GBS infection in their babies? What provision is being made to educate relevant health professionals about the prevention of GBS in newborn babies and the forthcoming availability of the gold standard ECM test? Do midwives and practitioners in maternity units even know that this gold standard test is being introduced in 2014?
UK guidelines recommend that when GBS carriage is found by chance during a pregnancy, it should trigger the offer of antibiotic prophylaxis in labour. Why should a woman with unknown GBS carriage status be denied the opportunity to find out if her baby is at risk?
I would like to pay tribute to the tireless work of Group B Strep Support, the charity and campaign group that has been working to raise awareness of this issue and reduce the death toll. I also have a constituent who has sadly lost a baby to GBS. The group has been a great help to me in preparing for this debate following a meeting with my constituent. Ten years ago, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said in his Adjournment debate:
“Group B Strep Support’s aim, which I support, is for the routine test to be offered to all pregnant women, with those who are found to have GBS at the 35 to 37-week stage being automatically offered intravenous antibiotics.”
He said to the then Minister:
“I hope that the Minister will show great urgency over the issue”.—[Official Report, Date; Vol. 408, c. 267WH.]
My right hon. Friend supported the introduction of routine testing: I echo his sentiments exactly.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) on securing this debate and raising this very important issue. The death of a baby is devastating for parents and their families. It is important that we do all we can to minimise the risk of such deaths. My hon. Friend has presented a strong case, but, as I shall set out later, it is equally important that we are guided in our decisions by professional, evidence-based advice to ensure that any action taken does not lead to potentially greater adverse outcomes or unintended consequences.
Group B streptococcus is one of many bacteria that can be present in the human body. It is estimated that about one pregnant woman in five in the UK carries GBS. Around the time of labour and birth, many babies come into contact with GBS and are colonised by the bacteria. Most are unaffected, but a small number can become infected.
If a baby develops group B strep less than seven days after birth, it is known as early-onset group B strep. Most babies who become infected develop symptoms within 12 hours of birth, and it is estimated that about one in 2,000 babies born in the UK develop early-onset group B strep, or about 404 babies a year—my hon. Friend made these points earlier. Most babies who become infected can be treated successfully and will make a full recovery, but even with the best medical care, one in 10 babies diagnosed with early-onset group B strep will unfortunately die.
The infection can also cause life-threatening complications, such as septicaemia, pneumonia and meningitis. One in five babies who survive the infection will be affected permanently. Early-onset group B strep can cause problems such as cerebral palsy, deafness, blindness and serious learning difficulties, and rarely can cause infection in the mother—for example, an infection in the womb or urinary tract, or more seriously an infection that spreads through the blood, causing symptoms to develop throughout the whole body.
It is worth reflecting on how the UK compares internationally on rates of group B strep. The reported rate per 1,000 births is 0.38 in the UK; in the USA, where there is testing, it is 0.41; in Spain, 0.39; in France, 0.75; in Portugal, 0.44; and in Norway, 0.46. Even in comparison with countries where there is routine group B strep screening at 35 to 37 weeks, therefore, the UK has relatively low levels of group B strep.
It is also worth setting out some of the general improvements in maternity care that are helping to reduce group B strep and improve the quality of care available to women. We all agree that women should receive high-quality and safe maternity services that deliver the best outcomes for them and their baby. Maternity services feature prominently in the key objectives set out in the first mandate between the Government and NHS England. As set out in the mandate, we want all women to have a named midwife responsible for ensuring she has personalised, one-to-one care. To help deliver that, there has been significant investment in the maternity work force. Since May 2010, the number of full-time equivalent midwives has increased by 6.5%—just under 1,500—and in addition there are currently in excess of 5,000 midwifery students in training. There has, therefore, been considerable investment in maternity services to ensure much more personalised care and, consequently, much safer care for women and their babies.
Nadine Dorries
For the reasons I highlighted, we know that the risk-based strategy is not working effectively. Does the Minister not agree that in countries that have routine testing the chances are greatly improved? He drew comparisons with the US, France and other countries, but we do not know what their figures would be if they were using our risk-based strategy. The fact is that they are routinely testing, so does he not agree that only if we were also routinely testing could we make a like-for-like comparison with other countries? Also, why specifically does the UK, a sophisticated country with sophisticated maternity services, not routinely test?
Dr Poulter
I will come to those points a little later, but I will try to reassure my hon. Friend. Given that the majority of babies who die from group B strep are born prematurely, testing at 35 to 37 weeks would not benefit them. Tragically, they would have died in any case, so the screening test to prevent them from dying would not have been effective. I will say a little more about that later, if she will allow me to make some progress.
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for raising this issue, because the first challenge is to raise general awareness of group B strep among the health care work force and women more generally. The Department of Health is working with the NHS, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, the Royal College of Midwives, the National Institute for Health Research health technology assessment team and the pharmaceutical industry to raise awareness of group B strep and reduce the impact of this terrible infection. The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists has produced an information leaflet for women who are expecting a baby or planning to become pregnant, and this sets out information about group B strep infection in babies in the first week after birth and the current UK recommendations for preventing group B strep in newborn babies. In addition, information is also available on the NHS Choices website.
As hon. Friends will agree, the focus must be on preventing early-onset group B strep infection from occurring in the first place. The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists published updated guidelines on prevention of early-onset group B strep infection in neonates in July 2012, which takes into account the latest evidence. It is important that services undertake local clinical audits to ensure the effective use of intrapartum antibiotic prophylaxis as recommended by the guidance. Following the publication of the revised guidance, the UK national screening committee suggested a formal audit of practice to establish how well the new guidance is being implemented at a national level.
The RCOG, in partnership, with the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, has now appointed a clinical research fellow to carry out a one-year audit across the UK, which will undertake a review to see how units have revised and updated their local protocols since 2006, using well-designed case studies to gather specific information about maternity unit policies by asking clinicians whether they would screen for group B strep and/or other intrapartum antibiotic prophylaxis in the circumstances described. It will also assess the extent to which current maternity information systems are able to provide data on whether women have had an antenatal culture for group B strep, whether women have been given intrapartum antibiotics and, if so, the antibiotics prescribed, the dose and duration and whether the women had particular risk factors such as intrapartum fever. The audit aims to provide feedback and advice to all participating trusts about how they could further improve their adherence to the RCOG guidelines on the prevention of neonatal group B strep disease.
Clinical audit is a tool that is incredibly valuable in improving the quality of patient care. It is something that trusts do very often on an ad hoc basis. The fact that we now have a national audit focused on group B strep disease will help to standardise practice across all maternity settings and improve the quality of care that is available, so that we can look at which women are more vulnerable and susceptible to developing group B strep and, therefore, reduce infection rates.
Nadine Dorries
That is encouraging news but again the focus is on women who are at risk of group B strep. I am advocating that all women should be tested for group B strep. I recommend that every pregnant woman I meet now buys a kit to test for group B strep. It is encouraging and positive to hear what my hon. Friend the Minister is saying but it is still focusing on the at-risk women, which is what the risk strategy does now. We need to move from that and away from the at-risk women. We need to move from 35 to 37 weeks and forward to full-term and routine testing of all women for group B strep.
Dr Poulter
I am hopeful that the audit by the RCOG nationally—something I discussed with the group B strep groups and the chief medical officer at a meeting this time last year to progress the work at a greater pace—will put us in a better position to understand in particular which women are at high risk, whether birth units are picking up on those women in a timely manner and how we can improve the situation throughout the country. In the past there has been quite a lot of variation in practice, broadly based on the RCOG guidelines, but it is important—knowing the devastating effects of this illness—that we put together a comprehensive audit tool that gathers data at a national level so we can spread good practice and good guidance throughout. If my hon. Friend will be patient I hope to address some of the broader issues about screening later.
Andrew Selous
Earlier, my hon. Friend said that some countries that screen have higher rates of group B strep than we do. Does he have any data—he could perhaps write to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) and myself—to show what the progression has been since testing was introduced in those countries? I think my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire said that it was falling in Spain but it would be interesting to see how it is moving following the introduction of widespread testing.
Dr Poulter
I would be delighted to do so. It is important to consider the confounding factors that arise in any research. For example, there is some evidence of different rates of carriage of group B strep among different population groups. Also, the clinical treatment of the disease in hospitals—which is separate from the screening process—can vary from country to country. We have to set the data alongside other practices that take place at local level in order to interpret them in the right way. I would be delighted to write to my hon. Friends, and to any other hon. Members who are interested, with that broader general information.
I shall turn now to the question of routine screening for group B strep. The UK national screening committee advises Ministers and the national health service in all four countries on all aspects of screening policy, and supports implementation. At its meeting on 13 November 2012, the screening committee recommended that antenatal screening for group B strep carriage at 35 to 37 weeks should not be offered, as my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire has pointed out. That is the reason for the debate. The reasons given included the fact that the currently available screening tests cannot distinguish between women whose babies would be affected and those that would not. As a result, about 140,000 low-risk pregnant women would be offered antibiotics in labour following a positive screening test result. The overwhelming majority of those women would have a healthy baby without screening and treatment. In other words, a woman who had screened positive for group B strep at one point in her pregnancy might not necessarily be carrying it at the time of delivery, and up to 140,000 women a year could be given antibiotics during labour even though they did not need them.
On the back of the evidence, concern was also expressed, understandably, about resistance to some of the antibiotics used to prevent early-onset group B strep, about the long-term effects on the newborn and about the potential for anaphylactic reactions in labour. Many of us will recall the report of the chief medical officer for England, in which she expressed particular concern about the risks posed by antibiotic resistance because of overuse. The use of antibiotics on that size of population could create a risk of resistance developing, which would have adverse consequences.
Nadine Dorries
I am interested in what the Minister has just said. As I mentioned in my speech, we are talking about a penicillin, a narrow-spectrum antibiotic. I know the Minister’s background, and he will know that GPs would prescribe it for a throat infection. This is a widely and commonly used antibiotic. Does he not think that these expressions of concern are over-egging the pudding slightly?
Dr Poulter
In the report that the chief medical officer published earlier this year, she made the point graphically that the overuse of antibiotics among people who do not need them can lead to resistance developing in bacteria. We know from hospital super-bugs such as MRSA and VRSA that many other resistant strains of bacteria are developing. Part of the challenge is to see responsible prescribing adopted more broadly across the NHS, to ensure that antibiotics are being targeted at the people who will benefit directly from them. The chief medical officer’s concern is that the screening that my hon. Friend is proposing could lead to many tens of thousands of women being given antibiotics inappropriately at the time of delivery, because they were not carrying group B strep at the time, and that that could result in resistance developing. We already know about the devastating consequences of group B strep infection, and the development of further resistant strains could be an unintended consequence of such screening that none of us would want to see. We need to be mindful of that possibility, as I believe the national screening committee was when it made its recommendations.
The majority of babies who die from early-onset group B strep are premature and are, sadly, born too early to be helped by screening at 35 to 37 weeks. Data from 2001 show that, in that year, there were 39 deaths due to group B strep, of which 25 occurred prematurely—that is, before the 35th week of pregnancy, when any screening would have been carried out. Those deaths would therefore not have been prevented by a screening programme.
It has been estimated that up to 49,000 women carrying GBS at 35 to 37 weeks of pregnancy may no longer be carriers when receiving treatment during labour. Studies of the test suggest that between 13% and 40% of screen-positive women will no longer be carriers at the point of delivery. There is also a potentially detrimental impact on maternity services, increasing the medicalisation of labour, with the increase in hospital births and increases in the birth rate that we are seeing. We know that once there is one intervention in labour, it can lead to other interventions and a high rate of Caesarian section when it might not have been necessary in the first place. I am not saying that that would always be the case and absolutely not with GBS—far from it—but we know that when a woman enters a medicalised pathway in a maternity unit, it can often lead to interventions that might otherwise have been unnecessary and that are sometimes quite distressing for the woman during labour. This is particularly the case when many of the women potentially put on prophylaxis would no longer be carriers of GBS.
The advice from the UK national screening committee is consistent with that of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence. I believe we have talked through a number of the issues about why that recommendation was made.
In the brief time remaining, it would be worth mentioning some of the research that is going on. It is estimated that a vaccine for GBS is approximately five years away from development. First-stage trials have now been undertaken, and wider population-based studies for safety and efficacy are in place in high-prevalence areas such as South Africa. I am sure we would all agree that a vaccine would be a very effective solution to GBS, and I shall certainly do all I can to push and nudge to make sure that such a vaccine is brought forward in as safe and appropriate and as timely a manner as possible.
Nadine Dorries
Is the Minister informing us that that vaccine would be widely available? Let me ask him once more—after everything he has said today, for which I am incredibly grateful—why does he think countries like Spain, the United States and others have introduced routine testing when we still seem to be opposed to it?
Dr Poulter
It is sometimes difficult to explain variations in clinical practice and the care of women during maternity services between different states or within regions of countries like Spain and to understand why they are different from what we have in this country. Here we have robust guidelines in place for trying to identify at-risk women and we are trying to tighten them through audit while we have low rates. I am not sure whether the same can always be said elsewhere in the world. That is why other countries might have wanted to introduce a cruder tool through a screening test to help them reduce their rates. As I have said, I will look further into this matter and write to my hon. Friends in order better to inform them.
Research and clinical audit are important. We want to make sure that we have a proper national audit programme to carry out and develop good and better practice guidelines for GBS. Looking forward to a vaccine, we hope that that will be a long-term answer to this devastating disease, not just for the UK but throughout the world. Prioritising other research studies is also important. At the moment, a study is being carried out by the maternal health and care policy research unit. It is looking at women with GBS sepsis, which will help us understand the physical impact that GBS has on women’s health. A second study looks at providing information at a national level on the numbers of women and babies affected by anaphylaxis due to antibiotic use in labour for GBS or presumed GBS infection. As I mentioned, one concern about a blanket prophylaxis would be the potential anaphylactic reaction that we know can occur when someone is allergic to penicillin or other antibiotics.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire once again for raising this important issue. I hope I have been able to clarify some of the reasoning behind the national screening committee’s decisions. I will write to and engage further with my hon. Friend and others to reassure them again that the Government take this issue very seriously. Together, I know we will get to a better place so that fewer families are affected by this tragic illness.
Question put and agreed to.
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Energy Prices, Profits and Poverty
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Nadine Dorries (in the Chair)
I inform Members that this debate was listed on the Order Paper earlier in the week as finishing at 3.30 pm, but that was removed from the Order Paper yesterday. The transport debate will start at 3 pm, when this debate finishes.
Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. I remind the House of my entries in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests involving the oil and gas industry, particularly a shareholding in Shell. In addition, I have a non-financial interest as the honorary vice-president of Energy Action Scotland—a fuel poverty charity.
The Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change is pleased to have been granted this debate on our report. It is timely, given the issue’s high profile and in the context of the price rises recently announced by most of the six largest energy companies. The subject has come to the fore again just as the winter weather has started to set in and people face the challenge of keeping their houses warm. The Prime Minister has made a number of interventions to try to reduce energy bills, by suggesting that environmental levies will be rolled back and, more recently, that transmission costs can be reduced. However, the Energy and Climate Change Committee considered the subject in detail, including profits and poverty, well before the recent spate of interest. Our inquiry was launched on the Floor of the House in December last year, and we reported at the start of this summer.
Our report’s opening conclusion was that energy bills are rising and are likely to continue to rise. The wholesale price of fuel, driven by rising global gas prices, has been the largest contributory factor. Several other factors also contribute, including the need to invest in and finance the UK’s electricity and gas network and energy and climate change policies. The extent to which energy supply companies are actively working to reduce their operating costs remains unclear. The Committee had hoped to uncover the real story behind energy company profits, but alas, that is significantly more difficult than it should be. At the time of the report, the Committee stated its disappointment that
“energy supply companies have not gone to greater lengths to explain to their customers the reasons behind energy price rises”
and highlighted that poor communication by energy companies
“has resulted in deep mistrust from their customers.”
At a time of rising prices, it is crucial that consumer trust is restored if we are to get the investment that we need. Just last week, the Committee held a session with energy companies to find out what was driving the recent price increases. Following that session, we asked the energy companies to set out information about their profits in a standard format. We published that information on our website today, although it still does not provide a complete picture. Bringing forward the information is an ongoing process, and the Committee will continue to consider how to improve the transparency and comparability of energy company prices and profits.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the difficulties in working out what prices ought to be, based on the wholesale cost, is that whereas Ofgem looks at past prices in projecting what it thinks costs ought to be, energy companies project forward to see what prices might be? That is one reason why there is a mismatch.
Sir Robert Smith
That is certainly one factor. Obviously, the energy companies’ hedging ahead could be to consumers’ benefit in smoothing out future peaks and troughs in energy prices, but an additional problem is trying to get transparency on what wholesale prices the companies are facing. To give confidence to the consumer that the margin is right, we need greater improvements in clarity. In particular, the companies’ trading operations need to be examined more specifically, and more analysis is needed on the impact of their trading arms.
The Committee recommended that the Department of Energy and Climate Change should lead a full and frank conversation about the contribution that consumers are being expected to make towards ensuring that we have safe, secure and affordable energy supplies. It is crucial that the public are made aware of the challenge that we face in meeting our energy needs. In its response, DECC said that it had been up front about the fact that energy prices will continue to rise and told the Committee that the combined impact of decarbonisation and energy efficiency policies led it to estimate that household energy bills will be 11% lower on average by 2020 than they would be in the absence of Government policies.
The Prime Minister has said that how the policies will be funded is subject to review. We urgently need to know what that means in practice. Is the review about the outcomes of the funding wished for or the desirability of the measures being funded? Our report highlighted that general taxation may be a fairer funding mechanism than the use of levies, but it also emphasised how crucial it is to tackling fuel poverty that we have an effective insulation programme. Fuel poverty is exacerbated by rising prices and income, but it is crucial to our long-term work on tackling fuel poverty that we improve our housing stock and ensuring effective insulation.
In our report, we highlighted factors contributing to price rises. DECC set them out in its response to us. The percentage breakdown for a typical dual fuel bill is 50% for wholesale energy costs, 20% for transmission and distribution charges, 19% for
“other supplier costs and margins”
and 5% for VAT. The remaining 6% is presumably related to Government policies. DECC itself stated in its reply to the Committee that, in 2013, Government policies to achieve energy savings, provide support to vulnerable consumers through the warm home scheme and incentivise the shift from fossil fuels were estimated to account for 9% of household energy bills. The figures do not quite add up. Perhaps that has to do with where the carbon price is allocated in the breakdown of those percentages; it could have been included in the wholesale cost of energy.
I highlight the Committee’s conclusion:
“The extent to which energy supply companies are actively working to reduce their operating costs remains unclear.”
The Government’s answer to the Committee on that point was:
“Competition between energy suppliers will put downward pressure on their costs and Government and Ofgem are taking steps to increase competition in the market.”
The crucial simplification of tariffs to improve competition and people’s ability to switch is certainly a helpful step in putting pressure on companies to compete effectively to reduce their margins and operating costs, but it seems that the Prime Minister is not completely confident that the steps to increase competition are working, or working quickly enough. Otherwise, he would not have announced a review of the competitiveness of the market.
It is a pity that Ofgem rejected our recommendation that it publish targets for improvements in the market as a result of its retail market review measures, which were designed to reform the market to deliver greater competition. It would have been good if Ofgem had set out criteria for judging the effectiveness of its measures, but Ofgem does not think it appropriate to set specific quantitative targets for success. The Prime Minister’s new competition review appears to be in addition to the new state of the market reports that Ofgem has agreed to produce in direct response to the Committee’s recommendations. We expect Ofgem to publish the first of the reports in spring next year.
Ofgem said in its response to the Committee that it doubted whether using metrics such as “profit margin” and “rate of return on capital” would help it to determine whether the market is competitive. However, measuring profits and the rate of return on capital, and their movement, would show whether the market was bearing down on costs or allowing them to rise. I repeat the Committee’s assertion that excessive profit margins are a symptom of poorly functioning markets, which underlines the need for complete transparency in what the profit margins are.
That brings us to the fact that we need greater transparency regarding energy companies’ finances. The Committee discovered that, although segmental statements had gone some way to improving the transparency of profit making in the big six’s retail and generation businesses, there was still a lot of information missing. That was acknowledged by the accounting firm BDO, which led a review of the statements commissioned by Ofgem. BDO made a number of suggestions for improvements. Surprisingly, Ofgem took none of them forward in their original form, arguing that their costs outweighed their benefits.
We made a number of specific recommendations about how energy companies could improve the way that they report their profits, based on BDO’s recommendations, including reporting trading activities, which, as I mentioned earlier, is a crucial part of trying to establish the boundaries between wholesale and retail and whether the consumer is getting a fair deal; having consolidated segmental statements independently audited, to provide confidence that they are a true and fair reflection of the allocation of costs; and requiring companies to align their financial reporting periods.
The Committee was not convinced by Ofgem’s assertion that the implementation of those recommendations and others that were suggested by BDO would place an unnecessary burden on the energy companies. The Committee requested that the cost-benefit analysis underpinning that assertion be published, but we still have not seen it. Ofgem needs to recognise that, given the breakdown of confidence, the benefit of restoring confidence and providing clarity makes the costs a worthwhile incentive to produce a better understanding of the companies’ profits. However, Ofgem remains unpersuaded that there is a case for full implementation of BDO’s recommendations.
Ofgem has launched a new consultation on transparency, but is it really necessary to have another consultation to find out whether a full independent audit of energy companies’ statements would help to provide reassurance that those statements are robust? I think that the evidence to the Committee spoke for itself.
Regarding the transparency of bills, it is disappointing that the Government and Ofgem have not taken up the Committee’s recommendation that energy companies should be compelled to identify the various components that make up their energy bills, including profits, on the bills themselves. The Government and Ofgem have rejected this proposal for fear of confusing customers, and because the information is available elsewhere. It is a shame that the Government and the regulator do not credit the British public with the ability to digest this information if it is clearly set out on bills, and to say that it is available elsewhere suggests that they have some confidence that the public can understand it. It would seem to make sense that in one item of correspondence—when the bill comes through—people receive the breakdown of how that bill was established.
Do the Government not recognise that consumers can understand complex information if it is presented effectively? Is there not something to be gained through the discipline of making energy companies state the breakdown of bills, including profits, on the bills themselves? That would certainly contribute to the honest conversation about energy prices that the Committee has been calling for, not only in this report but in our previous report, “Consumer Engagement with Energy Markets”.
When the Minister responds to the debate, it would be helpful if he said what the Government are doing to promote this necessary conversation with the public about rising energy prices and the need for investment. Why will the Government not support the full implementation of BDO’s recommendations on consolidated segmental statements to help to deliver the transparency that is so badly needed? Also, it would be extremely helpful if the Minister said what form the Prime Minister’s competition review will take and what the consequences will be if it discovers that competition in the energy industry is not effective? Finally, can he outline the time scale and process for conducting the levy review and say whether it is on the outcomes or on the funding mechanism? When can we expect to see that review, and how can people make an input into it?
Our energy supply needs investment that is paid for by profits—that is an inevitable reality of life—but effective competition and transparency are crucial if consumers are to have confidence that they are paying a fair price for that vital investment.
I commend the Committee’s report to the House.
Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)
I begin with an apology to the House: I am on a Bill Committee that, to some extent, requires my presence, so I may not be present for the entire debate, but I was anxious to make a contribution to it. I particularly apologise to the Minister, because I may not be present to hear his response; I had been very much looking forward to hearing it.
As our present Select Committee Chairman, the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith), said in his opening remarks, the report represents the best attempt yet at seriously shining a light on one of the central issues in the widening discussion about what is happening with energy bills, what might be done about them and what might be done on levies relating to bills. It attempts, as far as it can, to get to the bottom of what exactly goes on as far as energy companies’ profits are concerned. Clearly, if it is concluded without possible contradiction that energy companies are making what one might term excess profits, the conclusion may be drawn that the bills that stem from those companies’ activities do not bear the appropriate relationship to those companies’ activities, and action may then follow, either through regulation, through the companies themselves, or through further light being shone on the relationship between those two things.
We have seen—most recently in debate in the House yesterday—a considerable difference of opinion about what might best be done about bills, and indeed what might be done on a wider basis, and how the market could be reset if it is considered that the market is dysfunctional, given the way that companies that are vertically integrated—that is certainly the case for the big six—undertake their generation, trading and retail activities.
I imagine that the starting point for a number of those questions is in the table in the report that sets out the aggregate profit margin for the big six companies’ generation and supply. The bald figures are that in 2011, the aggregate margin for profit in generation was 24.4%, and the aggregate margin in supply was 3.1%—a very substantial difference in aggregate profit margin. Bearing in mind that the aggregate profit margin from generation is related to the aggregate profit margin in distribution—one eventually, by one means or another, sells to the other, and there is a retail outcome—we should certainly ask why the two are so different.
Part of what I think the Committee was trying to do in its deliberations and in the report was answer at least some of those questions—questions that I think everyone who took part in the inquiry will agree were extraordinarily difficult, regarding what happens between the generation of electricity and wholesale trading arrangements, and the purchasing of clips to balance supply and demand at a time of gate closure. How that all works along the line is opaque.
The Committee tried to look at how the accounts put forward by companies are presented. The difficulty is that the accounts are presented in different ways and have different internal arrangements. In some instances, they are presented by companies that are not based wholly or partly in the UK and therefore refer, at least in part, to subsidiaries in the UK, which may or may not have a relationship with parent companies outside the UK. It is difficult to say to what extent it is possible to produce the sort of transparency that one might expect and hope for in ensuring genuine accountability with regard to electricity companies.
Ofgem is not the least of those preoccupied with such issues. As the Chair has mentioned, Ofgem had commissioned a consulting company, BDO, to investigate what sort of changes might be made to accounting practices and trading arrangements to ensure greater transparency. As he recorded, the Committee felt disappointed that BDO’s recommendations—to align statements in the same year-end, to require the reporting of trading function results, to produce further work to assess current transfer pricing policy, and so on—were simply not taken up by Ofgem and have not informed Ofgem’s subsequent consultations on wholesale power market liquidity. We feel that it would be a good idea to revisit, even at this stage, what BDO said to Ofgem about those arrangements and to take the recommendations forward more concretely.
I refer to Ofgem’s more recent wholesale power market liquidity document, which came out at about the same time as the Select Committee’s report. That document received considerable mention in yesterday’s debate on energy on the Floor of the House as a document that could substantially deal with the question of transparency in markets and trading.
Trading appears to be one of the most opaque areas that we considered. One of BDO’s recommendations is to require
“the reporting of trading function results, including disclosure of the risk each trading function assumes”.
Ofgem had a go at looking at that, but from what I have observed about the process, it has fallen rather short of producing proposals that can get to grips with the issue of trading, which seems fairly central in trying to find out exactly what is happening. A vertically integrated company will inevitably have a trading arm, which may purchase for its retail operation, and may conduct trade with regard to its wholesale operation. By and large, it will trade on a bilateral basis with itself.
One of the practices we heard about, which appears to be wholly without transparency, is netting off. A number of activities, particularly those further down the curve—further out than what might look like trading —do not appear as trading at all and are netted off in the company’s accounts. We heard recently that varying percentages of the big six energy companies’ activities appear to be based on netting off. That appears to be outside the purview of what Ofgem had to say about wholesale power market liquidity.
There are other arrangements that struck me that remain outside the mechanisms that may enhance transparency in trading. There is the practice whereby one side of an organisation realises, near to gate closure, that it is unbalanced in terms of its previous purchases. It will effectively phone itself up to balance itself on the other side by creating trade—that is, creating generation that would not otherwise have taken place. That may appear as a trade, but it is not; it is a pre-order to prevent the company from going out of balance and incurring costs that it might not like to at the point of gate closure.
There are also mid-stream trading arrangements, which a number of the big six operate; they bring under their wing small independents, which act as if they were trading on behalf of the larger company. The trades made by the larger company are offered to the smaller, independent company. It is a little like some south American countries using the dollar as their currency while technically being independent. That may bring considerable benefits to those smaller companies, but it means that a number of the trades that take place do not look quite what they are.
We seem to need to go a lot further to establish how the various flows within vertically integrated companies take place, and how the outcomes of those flows either benefit or disbenefit customers. Certainly, there is the argument that some of the issues, such as netting off and gate closure balancing policies, may benefit customers, inasmuch as they save money, even though they appear to be anti-competitive in terms of the way in which trades are arranged. Getting full disclosure right may have the consequence that some costs go up rather than down. Indeed, one needs to be clear and careful about what those effects look like, and how they pan out, in terms of the relationships between companies.
I endorse the report’s recommendations on the necessary clarification of trading and company reporting arrangements. I would go a little further: I believe that the Committee has the appetite to continue investigating how to overthrow the trading arrangements that appear to take place within those vertically integrated companies, albeit in the context of ensuring that above-the-table arrangements are increasingly transparent.
The Committee also considered the relationship between prices and poverty. Interestingly, the Committee considered the role that levies might play; that was rather prescient, in the context of the levy review that has been announced. I am now clear on what is and is not in that levy review. What are essentially regarded as green levies are not in the green levy review, and what are essentially not regarded as green levies are in the green levy review. The levies that one can determine to be true green levies on bills, such as the renewables obligation, feed-in tariffs and the upcoming contract for difference, are not going to be reviewed. Levies such as the warm home discount, the energy companies obligation and the earlier levy on smart meters, however, remain to be reviewed. They are not green levies, and neither is the carbon floor price, which looks like a green levy but does not actually save any carbon and goes entirely to the Treasury. When those levies are reviewed, exactly what will the review consist of, and what will be its objectives? If the review simply asks to what extent we can remove those levies, a number of the issues raised by the Committee—how the levies continue to be important in combating fuel poverty, undertaking energy efficiency and insulating homes of the fuel-poor—will be overthrown.
The Committee concluded, somewhat presciently in light of the recent debate, that
“the increasing use of levies on bills to fund energy and climate change policies is problematic since it is likely to hit hardest those least able to pay. We note that public funding is less regressive than levies in this respect.”
Would a review of those particular levies—we concentrated, among other things, on the energy companies obligation—consider moving some of the obligations into general taxation? Or is the purpose to reduce the overall impact of the energy companies obligation on bills? I understand that, in recent days, No. 10 has issued a target to the Department of Energy and Climate Change on the expected outcome of the energy levy review. I am interested to hear whether that target exists, what it looks like and in what form it will be met.
The Committee also concluded that as it stands, the ECO is not sufficient to fulfil the targets of energy efficiency, demand reduction and combating poverty that the various programmes within it were set up to do. Indeed, the Committee concluded that the ECO falls far short of that ambition. Removing a substantial part of the ECO because of a levy review when it is already established that the obligation falls far short of its ambitions would be a retrograde step. I am anxious to hear more about the relationship between those levies and fuel poverty. Are the Committee’s points on fuel poverty and the levies well made? How will the Government address that in the context of the levy review?
I conclude by commending the report, as far as it goes, which was produced under difficult circumstances. I freely accept, as I am sure everyone does, that it is extremely difficult to shine a light on the subject accurately and unwaveringly without all sorts of considerations being raised that may or may not be germane to the direction of that light. If we can shed better light on all the arrangements, our debates will proceed much more objectively. If the Select Committee continues its work, I hope we will do a service to the debate.
Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con)
According to DECC, average gas and electricity prices have risen by 41% and 20% respectively in real terms since 2007. There has been a lot discussion in the past couple of weeks on the most recent price rises—on average, 10% per company price rises, which we all saw in a very short space of time—and a lot of the debate focused on how much the energy companies could or could not blame the preceding year’s rise in wholesale prices.
The Committee had a discussion with the companies, and there was some disagreement on exactly what had happened to wholesale prices over the previous year. The figures from 2007 show that we should not consider the problems of one year in isolation. We should not consider in isolation an individual set of price rises put in place by the companies because the problem has been ongoing for many years. There are continuing upward pressures on prices.
In some ways, perhaps the Committee has once again demonstrated its prescience by pre-empting this debate by conducting our inquiry before the most recent—perhaps “hysteria” is not the right word—strong interest in energy prices, which is a result of the most recent price rises. The price rises are important because they have crystallised the debate. Energy prices are now a rapidly increasing concern, and energy policy is dominating the news for reasons that those of us who want a coherent, long-term energy policy probably wish it was not.
All sorts of odd things have been thrown into the debate in the past few weeks, from a potential Government-imposed price freeze to a potential windfall tax and, most recently, potential changes to the management of green and social levies. To a large degree, I am concerned that many of those solutions are reactive and potentially temporary. The nub of the problem with energy policy is that, for multiple reasons, we face ongoing upward pressure on prices. For too long, politicians of all shades have not been willing to have an honest debate on why that is and what the implications are.
In particular, through our collective rhetoric, politicians have persistently fuelled the myth that Governments can control the cost of energy to a much larger degree than they can. We are all guilty of that. It is tempting to have a pop at the Opposition for what I believe is an incoherent price freeze policy, but politicians of all parties have tended to point to the other lot and say, “When you were in power, prices did x.” That fuels the expectation that Governments can pull a lever, push a button and control such things.
In some ways, it is hardly surprising that the natural conclusion of all that rhetoric is—I will say it—the incoherent policy of the Labour party, suggesting that it can pull a lever and freeze prices. Neither a price freeze nor a windfall tax would do anything to address the root causes of energy price rises. Both would be short-term sticking plasters to address the symptoms.
Prices have risen for many reasons. In spite of the argument over the past few weeks about what has happened to wholesale prices during the past year, it is true that increasing international wholesale prices are a key medium-to-long-term driver of why consumer prices are rising. It is hard to see therefore how the wholesale price over the past year can justify the large price increases that we have seen in the past few weeks. The UK is now a net importer of gas, so we are a price taker; we have to pay the going rate for the marginal cost of gas—whether for liquefied natural gas or shipped or pipeline gas, whichever is setting the marginal price at the time.
Prices are also increasing owing to significantly rising network and transmission costs. Those costs are getting off scot free, to a certain extent, because we do not talk about the transmission costs as much as we should—up 10% this year. We do not see them discussed in the media or in the House to the same degree as we discuss gas prices and wholesale prices.
Furthermore, some of the price rises are clearly the result of Government levies, which are there for different reasons; DECC, however, has estimated that energy and climate change policies will add 33% to average electricity prices by 2020. It is true therefore that an artificial price rise has been put on bills by politicians. The Government are absolutely right to review the impact of such levies and whether the different policies can be managed in different ways.
I do not want to sound as though I am excusing the big six and saying that they are not to blame, because they have a lot to answer for. In our inquiry, we struggled to pin on them so many of the legitimate questions that we had to ask—Members who spoke earlier have gone through some in great detail, and I will not repeat what they said—but, clearly, a lack of transparency and competition have allowed us to get into the situation in which the big six have such highly complicated structures that they appear to be overcharging themselves. To a degree, the high profits at the generation end and the low profits at the distribution end smack of the big six overcharging themselves and each other somewhere along the line. I urge the Government to reconsider asking Ofgem to implement the BDO recommendations, as the Committee suggested.
For politicians in the House to point at the big six and say, “It’s all their fault,” is dishonest and simplistic, however, because the situation is much more complicated than that. As a matter of policy, we are in fact switching off the cheapest ways of generating power and replacing them with more expensive ways of doing so. We are doing that deliberately, with a large degree of consensus, and for sound reasons if we believe that climate change is a real problem that needs to be addressed. I do believe that, and most people in this place—though not all—probably agree.
In a sense, however, we have not even started on that process. Right now, we are still sweating old coal assets as if there were no tomorrow—burning cheap coal in old coal-fired power stations, for which the capital costs have long since been paid. When those power stations start to come off line over the next few years and are replaced with newer generating assets, we really will see the structural cost of energy starting to rise as a result of many of our policies. The levy control framework, for example, will have risen to almost £6.5 billion by 2018-19, whereas all big six energy companies made a total of £3.7 billion in earnings before interest and tax last year.
There is a growing problem with the cost of what we are doing. I am not necessarily making a plea not to do those things—I will come on to that—but I am making a plea for a honest debate about the impact and the implications. I have said it before and I say it again: I regularly find myself sitting around a table with Government officials, scientists, academics, politicians and the industry to discuss energy policy, but the person who is usually missing from the table and the discussion is Mrs Jones of Acacia avenue, who ultimately has to pay for everything that we are doing.
The Government and politicians cannot simply wave a legislative magic wand and wish into existence the ideal energy mix that we might want to see in 2030 or 2050. We need a credible and investable road map for how to get from where we are now to where we are going. That would include a sensible energy mix, including new nuclear—I strongly welcome the recent decision on Hinkley Point—and we must not be frightened of moving from coal to gas. The Government’s gas strategy has, in fact, demonstrated that they recognise that.
We need to explore shale gas; we have a potentially enormous resource on our doorstep. It must be done safely and with the consent of local communities, but we must not allow fears that are in many cases built on myths to prevent us from exploring and exploiting that domestic resource. We must also have a much stronger focus on carbon capture and storage, because gas will be part of the mix for a long time and we need to mitigate that by moving much further forward on CCS.
The argument for moving some of the levies, which are social as well as green, from energy bills into general taxation is a sound and interesting one. I welcome the review, because I want to see more analysis of the figures and numbers for what that might mean for the average energy bill, for the average income tax bill and at the different bands. We can do a lot of what we are doing much more progressively; the regressive nature of how we do things—through energy bills—has been a problem.
We also need much greater focus on energy efficiency, which is always called the elephant in the room. Interestingly, when I go into a room to talk about energy policy, someone will say, “The elephant in the room is energy efficiency.” I am sorry, but it is no longer an elephant, because we all know it is there and we all talk about it.
Nadine Dorries (in the Chair)
Order. I am sorry, Mr Byles, but I have been working out the timings. For everyone to have a reasonable amount of time to speak—seven minutes—is it possible for you to wind up in the next few minutes? That will allow for the Front-Bench speakers as well.
Dan Byles
No problem at all—I will wind up in less than a few minutes, Ms Dorries. Thank you.
We have an enormous challenge in keeping our energy costs down, in decarbonising and in attracting the huge amount of investment that we need. The fourth part of the trilemma—the right word should be “quadlemma”—is the investment needed. We must come up with a way of keeping energy costs down and decarbonising without frightening away the investors we need to put hundreds of billions of pounds into our energy infrastructure in future to keep the lights on.
My plea to politicians on all sides of the debate is that, although we can discuss and hold each other to account, we should not allow energy to become a political football or a party political issue—I see a smile on the face of the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman, so he will not be making energy a political football, I hope—because it is far too important for that.
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
The BBC news on Radio 4 at 1 o’clock today said—I did not hear the whole story, because I had to be in the Chamber—that there was one wind turbine in Wales that had cost £48,000 to put up, but was producing £5 of electricity a month. That is beautifully symbolic of some of the things that are wrong with the existing energy policy.
I was not a member of the Committee when the report was written, but I have read it and it is a good one. It calls for greater transparency and more competition and its conclusions rely on the presumption that fossil fuel prices will carry on rising, therefore making renewables worth using and more financially efficient. The next report by the Committee, as the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) said, should look at some of the fundamentals. The reason why electricity prices are going up is simple: the cost of production and the levels of demand. Looking at that, as the hon. Gentleman indicated in parts of his speech, is worth doing.
The example I gave at the beginning of my speech is an extreme one, but it is a strange policy that decides to invest in energy sources that provide guaranteed income for the generators at three times the current market rate for energy, as is the case with offshore wind farms. As has been said, the reason is fear of climate change and induced global warming because of the increased production of carbon dioxide. We could have a long debate about that, but I do not intend to go into it now.
What is rarely said is that the current policies are having a perverse impact. How many times do we hear Government spokespeople say that the carbon footprint of the United Kingdom and Europe is increasing as emissions go down? The reason is simple. We have exported our production to China, India and elsewhere, where production processes are less efficient and we have to pay the carbon price of bringing goods here.
The cost of electricity production from offshore wind farms is three times the market price for an intermittent supply, and at the same time we are increasing our carbon footprint. That is not sensible, and the policy is not working. It will work only if everyone signs up to an international agreement on carbon, and it is highly unlikely that the United States, India and China—the major carbon producers—will do that.
The fact that our carbon footprint is increasing is not often mentioned, and some Ministers do not seem to understand anything about the issue. When the Minister, the right hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), was asked to define climate change, he gave the useless definition that climate change was climate change. He repeated that twice. When a Minister of State has that level of understanding, it is not surprising that we do not have useful policies.
The other basis of the policy is that the people in the Department of Energy and Climate Change know that the price of fossil fuels will rise over the next 10 or 15 years. If they could predict the market, I suspect they would not be working in the Department because they would all be rich. The fact is that there is a super-abundance of fossil fuels in the world; there are trillions of cubic metres of shale gas in this country and sufficient coal to supply the world for hundreds of years. That is not the problem, although there are constraints on supply at particular times.
The price of oil and gas now is about the same as in 1974, when exactly the same predictions—that the price of gas and oil would continue to rise—were being made. It may, or it may not. It cannot be predicted, and we must focus on reducing the price of energy production instead of increasing it, as we are doing at present. We need huge investment in research to find more efficient forms of energy, probably renewables.
After our previous debate, I sent the Minister, the right hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle, an analysis of the market showing that the extra cost—not the cost—of replacing our power production facilities was about £226 billion, and that was for renewables: wind farms and other forms of alternative energy. If 20% of that went into research into fusion processes, incremental improvements in the current technologies and improvements in batteries and storage instead of wind farms, that would probably affect prices more, whatever the international price of fossil fuels. That would be better than putting all our eggs in one basket, as we seem to be doing.
The other side of the equation is demand. There are some complicated schemes. The green deal is not working and has a very low take-up among people who are not well off and want a better energy deal to insulate their homes. I referred to the extra £226 billion needed to replace energy kit in this country. If my arithmetic is correct, if we gave £1,000 to households—it could be done on a needs basis and would not necessarily involve every household—that would cost £30 billion, which is about 15% of the extra cost. That would dramatically improve the position of people living in fuel poverty and it would reduce demand, although probably not on a one-to-one basis because when demand is reduced people tend to use the money to buy extra electrical goods and so on. However, it would have a significant impact on what is going on.
I am glad that the Labour party decided to introduce a freeze on prices after the next general election. That will not be a solution to the problem of energy prices in the long term, but it will give us a chance to take a much closer look, as the hon. Member for North Warwickshire said, at what we are doing about energy.
Many people with good motives have said that the world is going to fry and that we had better build windmills. Most of that policy is not working. It is expensive and it is putting people into fuel poverty. I am not on the side of people who want to destroy the planet—quite the reverse: I am on the side of people who cannot afford to pay their fuel bills. We must take a serious, long-term look at how we can produce energy at lower cost and provide a secure supply, which we do not have at present.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
I am grateful, Ms Dorries, to have the Floor. I was not planning to speak—
Christopher Pincher
As I am on the list, I will take the opportunity to speak briefly about the report, which I commend. I also commend my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith), Chairman pro tem of the Select Committee, for bringing its report to the Chamber.
The issue is not so much a quadrilemma, whatever band that may be—my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) referred to it—but a dilemma. It is how to keep bills low for our constituents while ensuring that investment flows into our energy infrastructure, which is in dire need of replacement. That is not an argument between political parties; it is a fact.
Our discussions over the past few weeks have been fuelled by this report and the decision of the big six energy companies to raise prices. They have been about fixing prices, and the Labour party’s proposed price freeze. That would take us down a path that is dangerous for energy infrastructure investment. I made that point yesterday during the Opposition debate on energy prices.
During that debate, my fellow member of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead), who is not in his place, said that the big six energy companies invest significantly in energy infrastructure. The fact of the matter is that at our Select Committee sitting of a week or so ago, Tony Cocker from E.ON made the point that E.ON has invested more than £7 billion in that infrastructure over the past five years. If we are to invest something like £110 billion over 10 years in infrastructure, we can work out that E.ON is spending about 10% of that cost. Extrapolate that over the other energy companies in the big six, and we are talking about £60 billion’s or £70 billion’s worth of investment from the total of £110 billion that is required to build our new power stations, put in our pipelines and build pylons to keep our lights switched on.
We have to be careful in our energy proposals that we do not spook the markets or frighten off the private sector investment that we need in our generating capacity and downstream piping—otherwise, the poor old taxpayer will have to foot the bill. I simply make this plea, which echoes what my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire said: we want to keep prices low, but let us not do anything that ends up costing the taxpayer and consumer more in taxpayer-funded infrastructure investment as a result of the private sector’s being frightened off by Government policy or pronouncements by would-be Governments.
I have made my plea, and with that, Madam—I was going to say “Madam Deputy Speaker”. With that, I commend you, Ms Dorries, for so admirably calling me to speak when I did not think I was going to be called. I hope that Mr Speaker and the Deputy Speakers start to do the same.
Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow colleagues who work together very diligently on the Energy and Climate Change Committee. I begin by paying tribute to the Clerks and staff of the Committee for their work in putting such good reports together, so concisely. This debate is very important, and as other Members have said, a number of issues that are now in the mainstream of politics were initially raised by the Committee and put into the report.
I want to take one issue up with the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles), with regards to what he said about incoherent policies; I shall get my own back and then move on in a more consensual way. I think there is incoherence in the policy at the moment—not in the Labour party’s policy, but in the Government’s policy—of bringing in additional tariffs in January this year, then bringing in additional carbon prices in April this year, and then saying in November, “We are going to have a review”. The Government need to stop and think whether to hold back on bringing in such levies or whether to think the issue through in the long term. They cannot have it both ways.
I want to concentrate on two areas that were in the report briefly, but have been missing from the debate. We have discussed extensively wholesale prices and levies—and quite rightly, because they make up large components of the bill when put together. However, another section of the bill is transmission, which, again, the hon. Gentleman touched on.
If we look at the table in the report, when we break down the bill, the cost of transmission and distribution of energies to our homes contributes between 19% and 25% for the companies. There is a variant of some 6% and some regions are paying that extra cost. Given that we have a national grid, I do not see why that should be the case. One such area is mine, which generates a lot of energy through nuclear and renewables. We need to look at that point.
I am not sure which Government Front-Bench Member will wind up, but I hope that we will get some answers on whether the energy review will look at transmission costs, because they make up a huge amount. We did not get them yesterday, because the Secretary of State was not around for long, but we need those answers rather than having the question knocked about.
I have a suggestion, and if the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) catches your eye, Ms Dorries, I know that he will endorse what I am saying from a different perspective: we need to look at the grid infrastructure and see whether we need another model of delivery for transmission and distribution in our country.
In Wales, the water industry has a not-for-profit organisation running pipes to homes and it invests all its profit back in infrastructure. That reduces costs to the customer at times, but the company is honest and open when it needs to do big maintenance and additional work on the infrastructure. Exactly what that company is doing is clear and transparent, because it produces its reports, and it has members on the relevant committee who are not from the industry.
Before anybody suggests that such an approach would in some way inhibit competition, within that model, companies go out to tender to get the work, so there is competition within that non-profit organisation. We could consider such a way forward for our national grid; at the moment, I do not believe that National Grid is acting in the national interest—I think it is acting in the interests of shareholders, first and foremost, because of the nature of the company. That is wrong for such an important issue as utilities and transmitting electricity, heat and fuel to our homes. We need a different model.
I understand the time constraints, so I shall conclude on the very important topic, which was in our report, of fuel poverty—rural fuel poverty, in particular. I make no apology for having this debate now. My right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) said that this is not only about a price freeze; it is deeper than that. It is about regulation and looking at the whole market.
The issue has been clouded by the energy price freeze, but that would allow a pause, and the Government are very good at pauses. They paused on the Health and Social Care Bill, and they are now pausing on the gagging Bill—the Transparency of Lobbying, Non-party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill. We need a pause with regards to price rises in the energy sector, so that we can have a proper review of the regulator.
I have argued for some time in the House that we need to be fair to the off-grid—those many residents in the UK who are not on the gas mains and who are paying more for their fuel than those who have dual fuel and are able to get discounts from the energy companies. Many of my constituents are in that position and pay a lot more—some 30%, 40%, and 50% more—for their heating than those who are on the gas mains.
I know that the Minister, who is not in his place now, is moving in the right direction and looking at the issue, but so was his predecessor but one, and so was Malcolm Wicks when the previous Labour Government were in power. I totally disagree with the energy companies when they ask for the Competition Commission and the Office of Fair Trading to look at the issue. That will take a long time, and when they have looked at the self-regulated off-grid market—they have reviewed it many times—they say, “Competition is there.”
In theory, competition is indeed there, and in practice it is there on some occasions, but it is still pushing prices up, and many families and households in this country cannot afford to heat their homes. It is very important that we look at those issues rationally and that we stand up for our constituents.
Finally, the hon. Member for North Warwickshire asked why we are having the debate now and said that fuel prices have been going up since 2007. In the past three to four years, people have had pay freezes and their household incomes have flatlined. Inflation is only 2.7%, but food inflation and energy inflation is far more than the basic rate of inflation, so people are suffering. Their incomes are going down in real terms and they are struggling to pay their bills.
That is why I am proud of this report. We have highlighted some very good issues that are now in the mainstream of political debate. We should move forward to a conclusion, where we are helping to ease the burden on our constituents and get the right investment for the future, without the excessive profits. We all need utilities. We all need heating and electricity in our homes. We want to get a coherent policy for the future, and this report will help shape that.
Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con)
Rising energy bills are hurting our constituents; we all know that. The public suspect that those increases in energy bills are driven by rising profits. Politicians and environmental campaigners have a vested interest in fanning that suspicion to divert attention from the increases in the cost of energy that the political elite are planning in the move to increasingly costly renewables, with the added costs that they impose on the transmission network.
The Select Committee’s duty is to investigate the public’s concerns and, if we establish that there are excess profits as a result of monopoly power, suggest ways of bringing the big six energy companies to heel by strengthening competition and through stronger regulation. In the report before the House, the best figure that we could establish for the aggregate level of profit for the energy companies—generating profits, wholesale profits and those downstream—was something like 7.6% of the household energy bill. That is not itself an obviously excessive figure, and it certainly cannot explain the very large price rises. The main factor clearly has been rising fuel costs in the past.
However, before the Committee held our hearings last week, we shared the public’s suspicion, at least as far as the current round of tariff increases was concerned, because we could not see how they could be explained by rising fuel costs; they certainly had not risen by 8% or 10%. We therefore planned to ask the companies forensic questions: if they had raised their tariffs by 8%, how much had their costs gone up by over the same period? When they fudged and prevaricated, we would come back with searing criticisms and indictments. To our surprise, they did not fudge. They gave concrete figures on how much their costs had gone up, company by company, and element by element of their costs. The main factor was not rising fuel and wholesale prices. It was two other factors: rising transmission costs, because the regulator had allowed a 10% increase in transmission tariffs; and, in many cases, policy costs—the costs of social and environmental subsidies as a result of our switch to renewables.
Naturally, the factual conclusions that we established went largely unreported, because they did not play into the prevailing narrative. Of course, the fact that we established what we did does not mean that the profits at the beginning were not excessive and did not contain an element of monopoly profit. Conservative Members are all in favour of profits, as long as they are earned through increased efficiency and increased investment. We are strongly against monopoly profits and if, in our inquiries with Ofgem and the inquiry that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has established, we find that there is a monopoly element, we will be the first to support returning that excess profit to the consumer, and we will certainly welcome any steps that can increase competition and reduce unnecessary costs. As the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) said, that should not exclude our looking at other models for the downstream element—he says that that applies in Wales; it certainly applies in places such as New York—if that could reduce the costs to the consumer.
However, the big factor driving energy costs in the past has been rising fuel costs and, essentially, rising gas costs, which drive up both the cost of electricity and, directly, the cost of gas bills; and the big factor in the future will be the switch to renewables. The hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) is a distinguished addition to our Committee, and his contributions to our debates will be of great importance. As he mentioned, onshore wind will double the cost of electricity; offshore wind trebles it. The figures for other renewables are of a similar order of magnitude. There is no way switching from fossil fuels to renewables will do anything other than increase the cost of energy to both households and industry. We should remember that only one third of the cost of renewables goes on to household energy bills. Two thirds go on to industry, but ultimately those costs, too, are borne by households. The pain that people are feeling from their energy bills is only one third of the total cost that will be imposed on them.
What shall we do about this? Knowing that the main cost driver in the past has been the rising cost of gas, we should be going hell for leather in drilling for and exploiting shale. Over little more than six or seven years in the United States, the shale gas and shale oil revolutions have brought down prices by two thirds. If we do the same in this country and overcome the obstacles that the environmental non-governmental organisations such as Friends of the Earth and so on are trying to put in the way, and the obstacles inadvertently imposed by European law, we can enjoy similar success. Either we will bring down gas costs in this country or, if they remain high because we are linked to the European gas grid, the profit on that gas will generate huge tax revenues, which will enable us to relieve other burdens on households. Either way, we should be doing that, and I urge the Government to tackle that with renewed vigour. I know that my right hon. Friend the Minister is personally keen to achieve that, and to make good the unnecessary 18-month moratorium that Chris Huhne imposed on this country; I think that was a greater crime than his speeding issues.
We should recognise that the transmission costs are going up in large measure because of the need to link up the transmission network to distant places. Huge subsea transmission cables are being built. Some £24 billion is to be spent on renewing and extending the transmission network. That is equivalent to £120 per household every year between now and the end of the decade.
We should go for shale and have a pause—a moratorium —on the switch to renewables; there are still enough costs coming through from that to make life very painful for our constituents. The German Government are thinking of doing that. The Spanish Government have done something like it. We should not be ahead of the field in penalising our constituents and our industry by imposing unnecessary and excessive costs on them. I urge Ministers and the Opposition to think again about a commitment that, whatever they pretend, will be the ultimate cause of problems for our constituents and businesses in the future.
Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)
As ever, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries, and it is a particular pleasure to be here today to discuss the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change’s report entitled “Energy Prices, Profits and Poverty”, and the responses to it.
I commend the Select Committee on producing such a thorough and authoritative report. On behalf of the Opposition, I welcome the tone and tenor of the conclusions and recommendations. They mirror our criticisms of the energy market and reflect our desire to see that market improved for the benefit of British consumers and British businesses. The conclusions were ably set out by the Chair of the Committee, the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith), in his opening speech. The Committee is fortunate to have on it a number of hon. Members who possess real expertise on, and insight into, energy policy in the UK, and who command widespread respect in the House. We have heard from many of them today, but unfortunately I do not think that I will be able to go through each of their speeches, because of the short time that we have to wind up the debate.
As is well known, the Labour party is not satisfied with how the energy market is functioning. We have therefore laid out plans for ambitious reform of that market, involving separating the generation and supply sides of the big six energy companies, establishing a new regulator and, crucially, freezing prices for 20 months while we get that job done. The evidence for the need for that reform package is visible to all of us in our constituencies, day in, day out, but this report has added to that list of evidence. I would like, in the remainder of the debate, to draw the House’s attention to some of the conclusions that I feel are particularly relevant.
One thing that comes across very starkly from the report’s conclusions is the dissatisfaction with the regulator, Ofgem. Several recommendations demand more activity from Ofgem, but conclusion 16 on page 73 seems particularly frank. In it, the Committee states that it is “astonished” at how long it has taken Ofgem to act on improving wholesale market competitiveness to ensure that customers are paying a fair price for their energy. In the rarefied language of parliamentary reports, that stands out as particularly hard-hitting, and it is our belief that Ofgem needs to be replaced with a much more effective regulator that has powers to force energy companies to reduce their prices when the wholesale cost of energy falls.
Yesterday, in the Opposition day debate, the Secretary of State attacked the Labour party over its plans to reform Ofgem before claiming, in a somewhat contradictory fashion, that he himself was seeking to reform Ofgem. Some people would say, “That’s the Liberal Democrats for you,” but I would never think of being so cruel.
Much of the Government’s response to the problems of the energy market has been to encourage people to switch their supplier. Of course people should ensure that they are getting the best deal that they can, and of course we should ensure that switching supplier is as simple as possible. However, from the consumers’ perspective, there is little point in making the effort to switch supplier when they are just switching from one company that is overcharging to another that is overcharging.
As is noted in conclusions 8, the low-level of switching between suppliers is a symptom, not a cause, of a lack of competition. It is difficult to see how any policy to make switching easy could have a significant effect if underlying problems in the market are not addressed. The Government seem to be deliberately ignoring the fact that switching has actually halved in two years, with only 340,000 people switching in June this year; that is down from almost 800,000 in summer 2011. The Government have to accept that fundamental flaws in the market have caused that lack of competition. Structural reform to break the stranglehold of the big six and introduce transparency into the market is the only way to fix those problems.
On the subject of green levies, I agree with recommendation 4 that there needs to be
“a full and frank conversation about the contribution that consumers are being expected to make”,
and many speakers today echoed that point.
There was a moment in the Opposition day debate yesterday when an MP on the Government Benches—I do not wish to embarrass them by name—gave a speech praising the Government’s subsidies for nuclear power and low-carbon generation, which they said had an effect on power stations in their constituency. They also praised the ECO scheme and the Government’s efficiency measures. However, they then said, very directly, that green levies must be rolled back. If MPs do not have a sound understanding of what these green levies are, it does not make things easier for the public.
Jonathan Reynolds
I am about to discuss a part of those green levies in which I am very interested: the ECO, particularly as it relates to fuel poverty. I was pleased to see that the Committee’s report focused on that in some detail. I know there will be widespread agreement among Members that fuel poverty, whatever measure the Government use, is far too high in this country. The news that, in the whole of Europe, only Estonia has a higher proportion of households in fuel poverty than the UK should set all our alarm bells ringing.
From our exchange at the Dispatch Box yesterday, it seems that the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the right hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), and I have substantially different views on the performance of the Government’s flagship ECO scheme. I simply do not believe that the ECO is ambitious or effective enough to meet the fuel poverty challenge in this country. In answer to the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley), the chances are that the ECO’s cost will rise out of proportion to the success of the measures being delivered.
The Government’s objective is to try to lift one in 10 —or, in the worst-case scenario, one in 20—of the households in fuel poverty out of it. That is not a sufficient response to the scale of the crisis. To that end, I especially welcome the Committee’s recommendation 24 —the recommendation that ECO expenditure be focused more heavily on fuel-poor households.
I will not have time to go into the detail I had hoped to. In relation to the green deal, it is clear that only Government Ministers believe that the scheme is still working. If we were to focus the ECO more heavily on the fuel-poor, as the report requests, the green deal would need to work far more effectively to tackle carbon reductions, which could be paid for by people who would be willing to pay if there was an attractive enough package.
In conclusion, the Select Committee should be commended for producing a report of this quality. All of us who want to see the energy market reformed and a better deal secured for consumers and businesses need to engage with its recommendations. We believe that the report endorses our case for serious structural reform, a tougher regulator, the reform of the green deal and the replacement of the ECO. I thank the Committee members for their diligence and insight, which is a credit to their constituents, to the House and to the public debate on these issues.
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Michael Fallon)
I repeat to the House the apology that I gave privately to the Chairman of the Committee and the shadow Minister for having had to leave in the middle of this debate. I, too, congratulate the Committee on its inquiry. This has been a useful debate, and I welcome the opportunity to add to the conclusions that we have already published, and to comment on the recommendations.
We agree with one of the central points of the report: that transparency around the price that consumers pay is crucial—a point made by the Chairman of the Committee, the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith). We have already been taking action to help people and businesses who are struggling with their energy bills, and we are taking steps to make the retail market simpler for consumers.
Albert Owen
I think that was the first time that business was mentioned; I omitted to do so, too. Would the Minister consider in the energy review looking at switching for businesses, so that they can break their contracts more easily, or have a comparison website where they can look for bargains in the marketplace?
Michael Fallon
That is an important point, and I would like to reassure the hon. Gentleman that work is going on to make it easier for small businesses to escape some of the higher tariffs under the contracts they are placed on, and to encourage more collective purchasing among small businesses. There is an organisation called Lumina that covers small businesses in my county of Kent, and I think there are others. That is a very important point.
Consumers will get the best deals only when suppliers face tough competition, and that is what the Government and Ofgem are working to achieve. We are committed to tackling the problem of fuel poverty; I note what the Committee has said about that. I was pleased to see what it had to say about the new definition of fuel poverty that we are bringing in through the Energy Bill. We are committed to helping people, especially low-income vulnerable households, to heat their homes more affordably.
We have already introduced some immediate help: 2 million vulnerable households will get £135 off their energy bills this winter, thanks to the warm home discount. Around 12.5 million pensioners will get the winter fuel payment: £200 for the under-80s and £300 for those over 80. There are cold-weather payments that are available if needed, and last year, they delivered £146 million to help cut bills for the most vulnerable. This year, we have added to those policies with more direct action. The Big Energy Saving Network is training 500 volunteers to go out into communities to help people get better deals from their energy suppliers and reduce their energy bills.
Energy efficiency remains a central part of our strategy, to help the fuel-poor and to deliver permanent energy savings. I am well aware of the serious concern among colleagues in the House for those consumers who are off-grid. I have chaired two meetings of our round table on that, in conjunction with the all-party group on this issue, and we have now established a code of conduct for the suppliers to ensure that—again, as the Committee would wish—prices are properly transparent at the point at which they are delivered, in a way that matches the transparency at the point at which they were ordered. More than 230,000 low-income households will be warmer this winter, thanks to energy efficiency measures that have been installed through the energy companies obligation.
Let me turn briefly to retail market reform. Competition is the key tool in exerting downward pressure on prices. Companies that do not compete effectively will lose customers. We are using the Energy Bill to ensure that Labour’s big six companies now place consumers on the cheapest tariff that meets their preferences, and give those consumers clear information to help them shop around.
I was also asked about the review of levies that is going on. We are looking hard at how we can get people’s energy bills as low as possible, to help hard-pressed families, just as we have done with the fuel duty and the council tax. I was asked specifically when we would see the result of that work. I hope that will be around the time of the autumn statement in a few weeks. That work includes some of the network costs. Ofgem has yet to establish the distribution costs for the next period. There is plenty of work to be done there to ensure that we bear down on those costs that form a considerable amount of the bill.
I would like to give the Chairman of the Select Committee a few seconds to reply. In closing, I thank the Committee for its work and the inquiry it has led. We are acting to help those most in need to keep warm this winter. We are also acting to ensure that everybody will get a better deal from the energy companies.
Sir Robert Smith
Perhaps the Minister could write to us with more detailed answers to substantive questions. I would like to echo the thanks to the staff of the Committee for the excellent support they have given us in producing this report. It is a matter that we will have to keep at, in order to get transparency and effective scrutiny to ensure that people do not pay more than they have to for their bills at such a difficult time.
Motor Insurance (Whiplash)
(11 years ago)
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Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I am pleased to have the opportunity to debate the Transport Committee’s recent report on whiplash claims. It is the third report that we have produced on the cost of motor insurance since the 2010 election. Our work in the area started because of complaints about rising motor insurance premiums. In April 2012, the average quoted premium reached more than £1,100 and the premiums paid by young men and women were particularly high, at more than £2,000 for men aged between 17 and 24 years old. Although premiums have fallen recently in cost, they remain high, particularly for young drivers.
Many people need to use a car to get to work, to college, to hospital appointments or to visit family and friends. Public transport is not always available for such journeys, particularly outside towns and cities. The high cost of motor insurance can prevent people from owning a car, seriously affecting their work lives, education or social activities. It can also encourage people to drive without insurance or to commit other forms of fraud. The high cost of motor insurance is also a factor in the cost of living squeeze, which affects households across the land. Our reports have shown that there are a number of factors that influence the cost of motor insurance, including the high accident rates for young drivers, organised fraud, the merry-go-round of referral fees, uninsured driving, cold calling and the growth in whiplash claims. We have pursued all those issues, and most of them are being addressed.
We have repeatedly asked the Government to do more to improve the safety of young drivers—in particular, by making the driving test more rigorous or by introducing graduated licensing. It is appalling that 27% of 17 to 19-year-old males are involved in collisions within a year of passing their test. In 2011, 148 young drivers died. I look forward to the Government’s Green Paper on the issue, which is due soon.
The Competition Commission is examining possible anti-competitive practices by insurers on the cost of car hire and car repair, and I will be interested to see its recommendations and the Government’s response in due course.
Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)
Does the hon. Lady agree that more could be done in schools? Teaching “The Highway Code” is not a compulsory part of the curriculum and what is taught from school to school is patchy. We could do more to educate young people about the dangers on public highways.
Mrs Ellman
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. Young people’s attitudes before they are behind the wheel should be addressed as well. That might be done in schools or in after-school clubs.
Another area of concern that we identified, which is within the Minister’s remit, relates to the activities of claims management companies and, in particular, cold calling. We are told that cold calling is illegal, but the problem seems to be growing. We have all received phone calls or text messages urging us to make a claim because of an assumed or real recent accident. What action is being taken to clamp down on cold callers? Have any firms been prosecuted?
In our most recent report, we looked at another factor that explains the rise in the cost of motor insurance: claims for whiplash injuries. A whiplash injury is a soft tissue injury to the neck caused by a sudden, forceful jerk, such as can be caused by a road accident. Symptoms can last for a few weeks or months. In a minority of cases, symptoms can last for longer, especially if exacerbated by a pre-existing condition. There is no generally accepted test for a whiplash injury. They do not show up on X-rays or MRI scans. However, the medical evidence that we received confirmed that the injuries are real and can have debilitating consequences for those who suffer from them. There are about 500,000 motor insurance claims for compensation arising from whiplash injuries each year, although the number is coming down.
The official figures on road safety show a welcome reduction in the number of people killed or seriously injured. In 2012, there were a total of 195,723 casualties in all the road accidents reported to the police, which was 4% lower than in 2011. Some 1,754 people were killed—an 8% decrease from 2011—and 23,039 were seriously injured, down 0.4% from the previous year. Those reductions are welcome, but every individual serious accident is a tragedy for the individual and the family concerned. It is not clear, however, exactly how the number of claims relates to the number of accidents, as the statistics on road traffic accidents are not comprehensive. There is widespread agreement that a significant proportion of the claims are fraudulent or exaggerated, but there is no authoritative data, perhaps because of the very nature of the issue. The Government are right to be looking seriously at the problem.
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the reasons why the cost of motor insurance has gone up is that insurance companies have irresponsibly paid out claims without any evidence that the person is suffering from whiplash?
Mrs Ellman
I fully agree with my hon. Friend. Indeed, I will shortly refer to that issue.
The Government proposed whiplash claims of up to £5,000, which would cover most of them, should be dealt with in court by using the small claims track. That approach was strongly backed by insurers, but rejected by most solicitors. The Transport Committee opposed that change, because many people who use the small claims track would have to represent themselves, and we thought that that would impair access to justice, especially as insurers would, of course, be legally represented. It was also not clear how expert evidence would be accommodated in the system. I am pleased that the Government accepted those arguments and rejected making that change at present.
We recommended the accreditation of independent medical practitioners to provide medical reports on whiplash claims. There have been claims that reports are of variable quality and that the doctors who issue them are not up to date with current requirements or are sometimes biased towards the claimant. I am pleased that the Government have accepted the recommendation in principle, although they have stated that they will enter into further discussion on implementing it.
We did, however, ask a number of other questions that have not yet been answered. For example, is there a role for existing regulatory bodies, such as the General Medical Council, in auditing or peer reviewing reports or dealing with complaints? Should practitioners who prepare reports be provided with information about the accident and the claimant’s medical record? We have written to the Ministry of Justice about those issues, but I welcome answers today if the Minister can give them.
We were disturbed to find that insurers frequently offer to settle claims before any medical evidence is submitted. My hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) made that point. It would be hard to imagine a clearer incentive to making a fraudulent claim. The Government have said that they will consider prohibiting the practice. Can the Minister tell us what work is being done on that and whether it requires legislation?
We also recommended that the Government look at ways to make whiplash claimants provide additional information at the time of their claim, such as proof that they saw a medical practitioner shortly after their accident. Will the Minister give us his view on that? Will he also comment on the debate arising from the Summers case about whether the courts can strike out claims where exaggeration is proven, but where there has also been a genuine injury?
Those complex issues have been created by the dysfunctional motor insurance market. It cannot be good practice for insurers to settle whiplash claims without medical evidence. It is unacceptable that ways are still found for insurers, solicitors, doctors, garages, car hire firms and others in this merry-go-round to make money out of claims, often by inflating the work necessary to address them. For years, insurers have found ways to increase the costs paid by their rivals, and the result has been higher premiums for the ordinary motorist.
Sir Greg Knight
The hon. Lady’s Committee has produced an excellent report. Will she say something about the limitation period? At the moment, someone who suffers personal injury has three years within which to bring proceedings to a court. Does the hon. Lady agree that there is a strong argument for reducing that limitation period?
Mrs Ellman
I agree. Indeed, the Committee recommended a reduced period, but it appears that the Government response to the consultation and our report rejected that. That is an important point, and I would be interested to hear any comments the Minister can make about it.
I thank the Government for responding to our various reports and for accepting many of our recommendations, but there is more to be done. That includes effective working between a number of different bodies, including the Ministry of Justice, the Department for Transport, the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency and the Department of Health, as was agreed in the debate that we held in November 2011. Will the Minister explain what cross-departmental arrangements currently exist?
It is important for recommendations such as those from the Transport Committee to be based on evidence from all the interested parties. It was a mistake for the Government to listen only to the insurers at the summit that they held in February 2012, which excluded the views of those who represent the genuinely injured; indeed, as we pursue the issue of fraudulent claims, we must never forget the rights of genuinely injured people to compensation. The decision not to pursue the small claims track proposal shows that the Government’s summit, with its concentration solely on the insurers, was in fact a misjudgment.
Now that the Government have acted on whiplash, will the insurance companies be held to their promise to reduce motor insurance premiums? How will that be monitored? That promise was made at the summit the Government held at No. 10. When the Transport Committee asked the insurers who appeared before it about that promise, they said it had, indeed, been made. Will it be honoured? How will it be monitored?
We will continue to pay close attention to the cost of motor insurance, and we intend to report again early next year on the action that the Government are taking. Fraud and exaggeration should be minimised, but access to justice for the genuine claimant should not be impeded. Motorists want better-value car insurance and confidence that the system treats them fairly, as well as fair compensation if they are genuinely injured. We want to help that become a reality.
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
I had not anticipated being on this early—I see faces falling around the room—but it means that I have sufficient time to develop my argument. It is a shame that more Members are not taking part in the debate, because this is an important issue. The report that my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) has just spoken to is important and authoritative, and it has had a significant impact for the good on Government policy.
As I will explain, there was a danger that the Government’s consultation on whiplash would be another stitch-up on behalf of the insurance industry, but what has emerged in their response is far less damaging and, in some ways, positive. I do not know whether the new Minister had a hand in developing it—I would like to think he did—but he brings a breath of fresh air with him. Having dealt with his two predecessors over the past three years, I have, sadly, become used to there being a lack of evidence to support the Government’s conclusions and to a disconnect between their policy and their soundbites, particularly on this issue.
I may be being over-optimistic as far as the Secretary of State, although not the Minister, is concerned. I say that because the Government response to the Select Committee report and the consultation was announced in a peculiar way—it was certainly new to me. The evening before it was announced, there was an embargoed press release, which then featured in the morning papers, before the report itself had been considered. Therefore, the report—rather like this debate—did not get the attention it perhaps deserved.
It is fairly clear why that happened. Suddenly, when he took up his post, the Secretary of State for Transport started talking about MOT prices and motorway fuel prices. The reason for that is that the centrepiece of the Government’s consultation, which they intended to adopt —the increase in the small claims limit from £1,000 to £5,000 for personal injury—had been jettisoned, primarily due to the evidence in the Select Committee’s report, and the Government were left with not very much to say on personal injury and whiplash.
In fact, the only thing the Government were left with to talk about were the medical panels. The medical panels are interesting, and I will come on to them a bit later, but they are hardly revolutionary—they are hardly going to make the major changes to personal injury law or the processing of claims that the Government, with the usual bombast that surrounds the Secretary of State, led us to believe they would. We had a bit of clever pre-spinning on this issue, but the substance, which we will talk about this afternoon, is that the Government simply backed off from a very unwise proposal.
As I said, I have had three years of having to deal with rhetoric that simply is not supported by the facts. “Compensation culture” is one of the buzz phrases the Government have used to mount a wholesale attack on personal injury law, despite the phrase being disowned by their own experts and reviews. It has been a cover for cherry-picking the Jackson reforms and implementing only those parts the insurance industry thought favourable. It has also been used as a cover for extending the portal scheme, which is not a bad scheme in itself, to cover higher amounts and to include public liability and employer liability to a high level. That was before we had really seen whether the scheme was working in relation to road traffic. All those factors have tipped the balance very much in favour of defendant insurers and away from claimant victims.
Whiplash is another catch phrase that has been used substantively to tarnish the reputation of all personal injury claimants, and particularly road traffic personal injury claimants. It was something of a cloak for the belated attempt—now abandoned—to raise the small claims threshold to £5,000. That would have taken at least 90% of personal injury claims on to the small claims track, so they would not have been subject to cost regimes or representation. Many victims, some of whom will have quite substantive injuries—a £5,000 general damages claim in a personal injury case represents quite a severe injury—would therefore be on their own, as litigants in person or as prey to insurers or claims management companies, in trying to settle a claim.
The evidence shows that those who are represented in such claims tend to get awards of about three times what they would have got if they had been unrepresented. The average whiplash claim that is paid out is about £3,000 for represented claimants and about £1,000 for unrepresented claimants. That is a significant difference.
It is clear that there are problems with whiplash. Soft tissue injuries will by definition be more subject to fraud than injuries where damage can be clearly seen and assessed. That fact, with insurance sector spin, becomes the view that all whiplash claims, or a very large number of them, are fraudulent, or even, effectively, that soft tissue injuries do not exist at all. That must be wrong.
I think I saw a figure in the report that estimates of the proportion of claims that were fraudulent ranged from less than 1% to 60%. The insurance industry’s own assessment is that about 7% are fraudulent. That is a significant number of claims, and it should cause us all to pause to think and worry, but let us not forget the 93% of claims that are genuine instances of people in pain and suffering, perhaps unable to work or with additional needs and costs. They are entitled to compensation.
Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)
I apologise to my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) for missing the beginning of her speech.
Has the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter), had a chance to make his own assessment of the accuracy of claims?
Mr Slaughter
It is difficult. There is a lot of rhetoric out there, and I have said what I want to say: that we should be concerned about fraud per se, and, in the context of personal injury actions, about soft tissue injuries, because it is easier to make fraudulent claims on them. The issue is how we deal with that.
I am delighted that the Committee’s report highlighted two issues. One of those is third-party capture, which is an open invitation to fraud. We know why insurance companies use it. They think they can settle a claim quickly and cheaply by offering a sum of money that is probably a fraction of what a genuine injury is worth. Usually because the victim does not know what it is worth, or needs money in a hurry, or perhaps because they do not want to have the case tested in court, they will settle for the sum—perhaps a few hundred pounds or £1,000—offered in an unsolicited phone call from the insurers. That must be wrong. Lawyers and medical experts have been saying that for a long time.
I am glad that the issue has been highlighted, and even more pleased that the Government appear to have accepted it. I hope that the Minister will say a bit more about what action will be taken. I have tabled parliamentary questions, and the Minister has answered some of them, but I do not think that he dealt with that issue, and it would be useful if he would.
The other issue that I was pleased to see highlighted in the report was how often fraud is pleaded by insurers defending claims. The answer is rarely. I cannot give a percentage, but from talking to practitioners—I do not think that this is denied—I understand it is rare to raise the issue of fraud in defence. If that is not being done, it is difficult for insurers to claim that they are aware of fraud.
Fraudulent claims can and should be challenged, and not only for the sake of the individual cases; if that happened more commonly it would, one might think, discourage fraud. What the insurance industry has been looking for, which the Government were going along with until recently, is a quick and dirty solution, which might deal with the problem but would throw out the baby with the bathwater. It would also prevent victims from getting fair compensation and encourage bad practice. It would encourage third-party capture and would also be likely to encourage the intervention of claims management companies.
Right hon. and hon. Members present will probably all be clear about the noxious effect that the claims management industry has had in its expansion in many areas of public life in the past few years. Having been restricted in some areas, it is looking for others to expand into, and it has its eye on the one that we are considering. If the small claims limit had been raised, with the result that claimants could no longer get representation, they would have been easy prey for claims management firms, who would say, “Let us handle it for you. We will take 30% or 50%,” and would purport to negotiate with the insurers on the claimant’s behalf. I hope that resisting the temptation to raise the limit will deal with that.
I have no particular problem with independent medical panels, if they work. However, I do not think that they will make a dramatic difference, and I am not sure that they are the simplest or right solution. Neither am I sure what evidence the Government have about fraudulent and dishonest practice by medical practitioners at the moment. The Minister might want to explain that.
When the panels have been used in other countries—Australia is the obvious example—they have rather become the captives of the insurance industry. I hope that that will not happen here and that they will be genuinely independent. Also, they seem like a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut. They will be a great new piece of bureaucracy and I am not sure that we could not have achieved the same objective of being sure we were getting reliable, robust and testing medical reports simply through registers of medical practitioners who were accredited as independent. That would have been cheaper, probably as effective or more effective, and more independent. We shall see where the approach leads.
There has been a progressive erosion of claimants’ rights in personal injury. I do not believe that personal injury claims, on the whole, can be brought by litigants in person. If 90% of claimants had been unable to get representation, it is likely that their claims would have been settled disadvantageously to them.
That is not just my opinion—that was the Government’s opinion last year, three months, I think, after they decided not to proceed with any change to the small claims limit for personal injury claims. They started a new consultation in April. I think it was in February that the previous report found against going ahead. The Government decided to go ahead and raise the limit to £10,000 for non-personal-injury cases, and that is probably right. We can argue about the exact figure, but it was somewhat overdue.
I do not think that, if the Government had decided, to allow for inflation, to raise the personal injury limit to £1,500 or £2,000, anyone would have had much of a quarrel. It is somewhat perverse that, having wanted to raise the limit to £5,000, they have now decided not to increase it at all; after they dismissed the matter in February there cannot really be any explanation for their proposing consultation in April, other than that they wanted to go ahead and have now been dissuaded.
However, it was not just that report: every report in the past 15 years, under the Labour Government as well as the present Government, that has considered small claims limits, as well as independent judicial reviews of the matter, found that it would not be sensible to increase the limit as the Government proposed. I think that, having got everything it wanted through the insurance summit at Downing street and so forth, the insurance industry decided it was on a roll. Having got the Jackson concessions and similar things, it was looking for an opportunity to go further. This was the prize that insurers really wanted, because they thought that it would almost entirely destroy the personal injury lawyers, save for catastrophic and major injuries.
If one looks at other countries to learn lessons, with Australia being the obvious example, one can see that such changes lead to wholesale restrictions on the rights of claimants. In Australia, there is something called whole-person impairment that has quite a high threshold below which no personal claims can be made. In other words, a person has to be substantially injured before they can bring a claim. There is also no-fault compensation, under which the onus is effectively passed to the state rather than being on insurers.
There is a proposal in Australia, not due to come in for another five or six years, simply to ban the common law right to sue for personal injury. I find it perverse that a Conservative Government might start to walk down that track. The losers would be not only the victims, but the state, which will end up picking up the tab through the increased costs of the NHS and benefits, and in other ways. The proposal would effectively nationalise the liability for personal injury.
The winners here are clearly the insurers, whose shareholders and profits are the major driving force. Are motorists winners? So far, there is no evidence that they are. Although the Minister’s predecessors said—it will be interesting to hear whether he repeats this—that insurance premiums will come down as a consequence of the measures, the insurance industry never says that. It says that it hopes that insurance premiums will come down. They have come down, I think, by 12%.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Shailesh Vara)
I respectfully suggest that the hon. Gentleman look at what the AA has said—that average insurance premiums for comprehensive cover have gone down.
Mr Slaughter
I think that there is a misunderstanding. No one denies that insurance premiums have been going down. They have been going down for some time, and were doing so before any of the Government’s changes were implemented in April. I refer the Minister to an answer he gave. I asked,
“with reference to his…announcement of 23 October 2013, how much of the 12 per cent reduction in motor insurance premiums over the last year is attributable to the reforms to civil litigation funding and costs brought in April 2013.”
I am afraid that the answer was that it is
“too early to assess the full impact of the reforms”,
but that AA Insurance has ascribed the reduction
“to anticipated savings to the Government’s reforms.”—[Official Report, 6 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 255W-256W.]
But we are asking for evidence, which was my starting point.
Mr Vara
With respect, the shadow Minister has slightly moved the argument. The first comment to which I replied was simply that insurance companies do not say that insurance premiums have gone down, and I gave him a simple response—that the AA has specifically said that insurance premiums have gone down by an average of about £80 for comprehensive cover. That was all I was addressing, but he has moved on to a slightly different point.
Mr Slaughter
With respect to the Minister, my point was whether insurance companies say, whenever changes are implemented, that insurance premiums will go down. If he has evidence of an insurance company saying, “We expect insurance premiums to fall by 10% in the next year as a consequence of proposals introduced by the Government in response to the whiplash consultation”, I will be sceptical, but impressed, and I will monitor that to see whether it is true.
I asked the Minister a series of questions about where the Government were going on the announcement, specifically in relation to medical panels and fraudulent claims. I am grateful to him for today’s answers, but I am not sure that they take us much further. I asked when he proposes to implement the new independent medical panel scheme for whiplash claimants, and he replied that there was “no set time frame”.
I asked the Minister whether the scheme would apply to all personal injury claims, to which his reply was that it
“will apply to similar road traffic accident soft tissue injury claims”.—[Official Report, 6 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 259W.]
With respect, that is a bit vague. I take from that that it will not apply to all personal injury claims, but to those for whiplash and similar claims. The Government need to be more precise and to define exactly what the medical panel will deal with. It would be helpful if the Minister did that today, but if not, I am sure that he will write to me about the issue.
I asked what steps the Minister was taking to ensure that insurers did not make offers to settle whiplash claims without medical evidence. I made that point earlier, and he may have misunderstood me, but I do not think that he has replied to it, specifically in relation to third-party capture and how that can be prevented. There could simply be a ban—for example, on unsolicited approaches by insurers, without the benefit of medical evidence. That issue was not covered in the answers I received today, so I would be grateful for that reply.
I asked the Minister how the new independent medical panel scheme for whiplash claimants will be funded. I am afraid that his answer was:
“We are keen to talk to stakeholders about funding opportunities which would meet the costs of setting up and running the new system”.—[Official Report, 6 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 259W.]
I take that as, “I don’t know at the moment,” but if I am wrong, will he let me know?
Mr Vara
I hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but I hope that he agrees that it is very important to get this measure right and, in doing so, to consult all the relevant stakeholders. That is what we propose to do, rather than shoot from the hip. I gave a frank and honest reply, in the expectation that we will come up with the right answer for the public, for whom this is an important matter.
Mr Slaughter
This early in the Minister’s tenure, I am perfectly happy to accept his answer as it stands. However, we need to know at least the timetable for where this is going. To me, the response has the smell of a climbdown. I am sure that the Minister is absolutely sincere in wanting to tackle fraud in this area, but having gone along with how it was presented by the Secretary of State, we now need to know, factually, where we are going. The issue is important not just to victims—and to motorists and insurers—but to how the system works. Many hard-working practitioners are now scratching their heads about how things will change.
I asked the Minister what further proposals he was considering to reduce fraudulent or exaggerated whiplash claims, which was alluded to in the announcement. The answer was that the
“primary focus is on…implementation of the measures outlined in the 23 October announcement”.—[Official Report, 6 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 259W.]
I think that that means there are none at the moment.
I also asked the Minister what steps he was taking to ensure that insurers shared more of their data on suspected fraudulent or exaggerated whiplash claims. Again, I take it that the answer is that he is looking at the matter and will come back with further proposals. Finally, I asked him for how long he has deferred any increase in the small claims threshold for personal injury claims. I take from his other answers that there are no plans to do that, at least until there has been a full review of the Jackson proposals, to which he has linked the issue, and that will some three to five years hence.
I do not want to put the Minister completely on the spot, because I appreciate that such things are not an exact science, but some certainty is needed. As I said, there has been a huge amount of rhetoric in this area, with puff stories in the Sunday papers for many years—the Government are entitled to do that—but the serious business of litigating and settling injury claims must be dealt with.
If the Government say, as they clearly now are saying, that they will not increase the limit, but might do so in future, they should state at least a minimum time that will have to pass before that can happen. I take it from the answers that until there has been a full review of the current changes—Jackson, the portal and so on—we will not return to that subject again. The fact that the Minister answered those questions has shortened my contribution, but I would be grateful for any further clarification.
In conclusion, the Government need to be more even-handed in relation to this matter. If they are, they will get a better response from all sides. The insurers feel that they have been on a roll so far. We must have no more summits with the Prime Minister or anybody else to which only one side is invited. I think we can all agree that that was a serious error of judgment; only listening to one side is never a good idea if we are to make sensible policy. The Conservative party needs to place less reliance financially on the insurance industry, which is a very substantial donor, because that is not a helpful way to go.
All of us want motor insurance premiums to continue to decline. I think the figure of £90 in the average premium is given in relation to whiplash and soft tissue injuries. That is a substantial sum, but it is far smaller than the amount spent on repair costs, car hire costs and many other areas that are open to abuse. I hope the Government will turn their attention to that matter and not be put off by the fact that the insurers are often complicit in those areas. Credit hire and inflated repair costs are a scandal. They cost far more than personal injury costs in relation to insurance premiums, and that is something that should be tackled.
One reason why there are a lot of soft tissue claims is that car safety has improved immeasurably over the past 20 or 30 years. I am talking about the structure of vehicles, the compulsory use of seat belts and other matters of that kind. People are suffering moderate soft tissue injuries where previously they would have suffered catastrophic injuries. That improvement is to be welcomed, so let us not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Let us bear down on fraud, whether it is in the area of whiplash or credit hire, and on excessive profit taking, whether that is done by claims management companies, insurers or lawyers.
We must also ensure that victims’ voices are heard. I am sure that the Minister, in many other areas of his brief, would be the first to say that that should be the case. We must not prevent the victims of road traffic accidents or of other personal injuries from being able to mount a claim and get representation, proper redress and fair compensation. The Government have been singing from one side of the hymn sheet, and it is about time they took into account both sides.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Shailesh Vara)
It is a pleasure, Mr Robertson, to speak in a debate that is chaired by your good self. I congratulate the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) on securing this timely debate. Indeed, this is my second debate as a Justice Minister and the second debate that I am replying to that has been secured by the hon. Lady.
On 29 October, the hon. Lady asked a number of questions in a letter to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Justice. I will try to address some of those issues in my remarks today. If there is any shortfall, I will expect her to have a reply very soon.
I was a little disappointed that the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) was so critical of everything that the Government seek to do, particularly as this is something that will actually benefit the public. He asked me who the winner will be. Let me assure him that, at the end of the day, it will be the public. I hope that when I have finished my comments, he will be slightly persuaded that this is actually a good news story, rather than a negative one.
There have been some real challenges for the Government in seeking to put right some of the imbalances in the criminal justice system. Such imbalances have led to a disproportionate growth in personal injury claims, especially whiplash claims, and in the considerable costs of dealing with them. Too many claims are being brought inappropriately. We know that reported road traffic accidents have fallen from 190,000 in 2006, to 150,000 in 2012—a reduction of more than 20%. Yet at the same time, the number of personal injury claims resulting from road traffic accidents has risen from 520,000 to 820,000—an increase of almost 60%. That is a clear indication that there is a problem.
Mr Slaughter
I will not interrupt the Minister every five minutes, but does he accept that whiplash claims fell by about 60,000 in the last year that figures were available, which is, I think, 2012-13? They are now down to the sort of levels of 2008-09.
Mr Vara
If the hon. Gentleman would give me the opportunity to speak, he will find that I address a little bit later the disparity of numbers and what is a genuine whiplash claim now compared with what it was before.
It is worth noting that the proportion of road traffic accident claims that relate to whiplash has dropped to 58% recently. However, further study of Department for Work and Pensions statistics suggests that that is misleading and that a change in claims labelling may be responsible. Many claims are now labelled as soft tissue neck injuries when notified to the DWP. When those claims are considered with those labelled “whiplash”, the figure increases to around 87% of claims. Even though the number of accidents is falling, there has been a large increase in the number of personal injury claims, which is real evidence of a system crying out for reform.
Sir Greg Knight
As the effects of whiplash are normally felt within seven days of the accident and usually do not last more than a year, will the Minister address the point raised by the Transport Committee, which suggested that the period of limitation in such cases be reduced from three years to one year? If he cannot cover that matter today, will he write to me on that specific subject? There is a case for reducing the limitation period for these claims.
Mr Vara
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his comments. The Government did indeed consider that recommendation, but we do not intend to take any action on it. The limitation period is of long standing and applies to wider personal injuries than just those in road accidents. It is important to bear that in mind. This debate is specific to whiplash claims.
The Government accept that many claims may be genuine, but many speculative, exaggerated or even outright fraudulent claims are clearly being made. It is not right that people who cheat the system should get away with it and force up the price of insurance for honest, hard-working motorists. I make no apology for targeting the exaggerated claims of whiplash fraudsters to drive down premiums.
People seemingly now claim for whiplash injuries sustained in the most minor of incidents, and Government data show that more than 1,900 claims a day are made. According to the Association of British Insurers, the cost to the industry from whiplash claims is £2 billion, resulting in £90 being added to the average motor insurance premium. That is why the Government were committed to reducing the number and cost of whiplash claims at the Prime Minister’s insurance summit last year. We need to take action to tackle speculative, fraudulent and exaggerated whiplash claims, but we must not lose sight of the needs and legitimate expectations of those who have suffered a genuine injury. A reduction in the number of such claims will lower the costs for insurers, which will in turn allow them to continue to reduce motor premiums for consumers.
Motor insurance premiums are beginning to fall. Figures published by the AA’s British insurance premium index in October, as I said earlier, show that quotes for annual comprehensive car insurance have fallen by 12% over the past year. Incidentally, regarding some remarks made earlier by the hon. Member for Hammersmith, I refer him to what the Association of British Insurers said in oral evidence to the Transport Committee. The ABI said that it expects savings from the Government reforms that have been implemented to result in a decrease in insurance premiums.
That is a good start, but the Government fully expect insurers to continue to meet their commitment to pass on the savings from the Government reforms that are driving down the costs of civil litigation. In December last year, the Ministry of Justice launched a consultation seeking stakeholder views on the creation of independent medical panels to support better diagnosis of whiplash and options for increasing the small claims threshold for personal injury claims to £5,000.
The consultation closed on 8 March. I thank all the individuals and organisations who took the time and trouble to contribute. A healthy 292 responses were received from a wide range of stakeholders, providing the Government with a strong evidence base to inform our decisions for reform.
The Government published our response to the consultation and to the Transport Committee report, “Cost of motor insurance: whiplash”, on 23 October. Our response detailed the Government’s direction of travel on whiplash reform and announced a number of reforms to the medical evidence and reporting system for whiplash claims. Exaggerated and speculative compensation claims have helped force up insurance premiums, and such unnecessary and costly claims will be targeted by the Government’s new and robust medical evidence scheme.
The new system will ensure that only evidence from fully accredited medical professionals qualified to carry out thorough medical examinations can be considered when pursuing a claim, so people who aim to cheat the system will be deterred, while victims with genuine injuries can still get the help that they need. Improvements to the system to support medical experts will include an approved accreditation scheme, new best practice guidance, better accident information and access to medical records, where appropriate, and an improved medical report form to speed up settlements.
The Government are particularly pleased that representatives from the insurance, legal and medical sectors have put aside their differences and submitted a consensus approach to improving medical evidence and reports. Such a consensus can only be positive for all involved and provides the Government with a clear mandate for our reforms. We look forward to working closely with stakeholders to build an effective and rigorous new system on that solid base of agreement. Ministers plan to meet representatives from key stakeholder groups to outline the way forward and identify experts to work with officials on the detail of the new system. It is both important and sensible to involve industry experts when designing the detailed changes. Such input will be invaluable as we work up an appropriate and effective accreditation process, methods to control the use of pre-medical offers, robust examination techniques and best practice guidance and an improved medical reporting process and report form.
Details of the most appropriate funding method for the new scheme are still to be developed, but the Government believe that there are areas of common ground with the industry. We will talk to stakeholders about funding opportunities for meeting the costs of setting up and running the new system and for ensuring that the Government achieve our intention that such costs should not fall on the taxpayer. We aim to work at pace with stakeholders on those and other issues, and we intend to start implementing improvements to the system next year. I assure the hon. Member for Hammersmith that we are actively considering a timetable for implementation.
In addition to the work on the new medical reporting scheme, the Government will also work with stakeholders to improve the provision of data relating to whiplash. As the Committee indicated in its report, accurate data and statistics are needed to have a baseline to work from. Ministry of Justice officials will be working with colleagues in other Departments and with representatives from the insurance and legal sectors, including Claims Portal Ltd, to identify and compile baseline data. That will ensure that future work in this area can be underpinned by a robust evidence base.
Mr Slaughter
I appreciate all that, but in considering the cost of insurance premiums, will the Minister also consider insurance company profits? Admiral has just said that it is delivering £80 per policyholder to its shareholders—a sum equivalent to whiplash costs—and Direct Line has just announced that its overall operating profit has risen 73% in the past nine months.
Mr Vara
I assure the hon. Gentleman that we want to get this right, and we are speaking actively with all stakeholders: insurance companies, lawyers, claimants, defendants and the judiciary where applicable. I hope that there will be consensus, and that we will get it right. If he wishes to have any input other than this debate, I will certainly welcome it. He is welcome to write to me, as indeed he has done with all the questions that I have helpfully answered in this debate.
The Government are also keen for the insurance sector to work with the claimant lawyer groups to share available data on fraudulent claims. Doing so would enable many such claims to be stopped at source. Ministry of Justice officials will work with stakeholders to assess the work undertaken so far, consider the issues on both sides that are slowing agreement and identify solutions to enable both sides to reach agreement on this vital issue.
The sharing of data on fraudsters will be of immeasurable help to claimant lawyers when considering whether to take on a case and will be a considerable step forward in the fight against fraudulent claims. However, the Government consultation document contained a further proposal on whether the small claims threshold for personal injury claims should be raised from £1,000 to £5,000. Right hon. and hon. Members already know that, following a thorough assessment of the evidence submitted to the Government from both consultation responses and from other sources, we decided to defer the raising of the small claims threshold for now. For the moment, more work is needed to support litigants in person, consider how best to regulate the personal injury claims sector, mitigate any impact on the online portal used to process road traffic accident claims where liability is admitted and assess the impact on the market of other Government reforms.
As Members will also be aware, the Government have undertaken a major programme of reform to civil litigation and costs with significant impacts on the personal injury litigation sector. The implementation of part 2 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 on 1 April introduced major changes to no win, no fee conditional fee arrangements, the provision of after-the-event insurance and a ban on the payment and receipt of referral fees in personal injury cases.
Those reforms, and the subsequent changes to the road traffic accident pre-action protocol and associated fixed recoverable costs, have already begun to have an impact on the personal injury market. However, the Government believe that time is needed for the changes to bed in completely and for the savings that they will create to be fully realised before further reform to the sector is undertaken. I ought to make it clear that the Government have not ruled out further reform to the personal injury market. The consultation document and the Transport Committee inquiry both highlighted areas where further reform would be possible, and the Government may wish to consider such proposals in due course. However, our primary focus for now is on the effective implementation of the measures outlined in the announcement by my right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor on 23 October.
It is also our desire to identify and eradicate dysfunctional behaviour by those who operate in this sector, and we would like all stakeholders to work together with us to address this issue. In addition, we await with interest the Competition Commission’s forthcoming report and recommendations on the personal motor insurance market.
There is an opportunity now for insurers, claimant lawyers and others to build on the recent spirit of co-operation that was shown in agreeing a sensible consensus position on medical evidence. I call on all interested parties in this market to come together to build a personal injury process that deters speculative and fraudulent claims, while providing the genuinely injured with the help and support that they need to recover from an accident.
I thank the Transport Committee for its valuable inquiry and report on the cost of whiplash claims on motor insurance premiums. The report was well-balanced and thought provoking, and it provided much useful evidence that helped to inform the Government’s final decisions on whiplash reform.
As Members are no doubt aware, Ministers helpfully agreed to defer the publication of the consultation response to allow the Committee’s recommendations to be considered in full. The Committee published its recommendations on 31 July, and my predecessor wrote to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside on 25 September to propose that a combined response to the consultation and the Committee should be published. I understand that the Committee was content with this approach, and the response was published on 23 October.
As I have already mentioned, the Government agreed with a number of the Committee’s conclusions, such as those on improvements to medical reporting, data sharing and evidence gathering and on whether to raise the small claims threshold for personal injury claims, so I will not go into them again now. I should point out that the Committee’s report addressed areas where the Government felt, on balance, that change was either not required or not appropriate.
Whiplash is a complex issue and all options, including whether it would be proportionate and appropriate to make changes to primary legislation, were looked at before final decisions on the way forward were made. For example, the Government considered the Committee’s recommendation on whether to amend the limitation period for whiplash claims, and I have already dealt with that issue. As I said, the limitation period is long-standing and applies to all personal injury actions arising from negligence or breach of duty. However, the Government decided that the available evidence did not at present support such a change.
As I said in my opening remarks, we have received the letter of 29 October from the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside, and we hope to reply to her more substantively very shortly.
I conclude by noting that the Transport Committee issued a further call for evidence on Tuesday relating to the publication of the Government’s response document. The Government will, of course, provide an appropriate contribution, and I look forward to the Committee’s further report.
Mrs Ellman
I thank the Minister for his reply. It was indeed very helpful of the Government to decide to give a joint answer to the general consultation and the Transport Committee’s report, and some of the decisions that the Government made reflect the wealth of evidence that we were able to provide in our report. However, a number of issues remain outstanding.
I was encouraged to hear the Minister say that he would consult further with all stakeholders. I hope that does indeed mean all stakeholders, and not singling out insurance companies as having some special preference. When debating this issue, it is important to remember that although we wish to root out fraud, we also want to protect the genuine claimant, and where insurance companies have promised to reduce their premiums, we must make sure that they do so without jeopardising the rights of those who are genuinely injured. I look forward to the Committee continuing its work on the subject. We will still seek answers to the specific questions that I put during the debate, but I thank the Government for their response to our report.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Statements
Electricity Market Reform (Contingencies Fund)
The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey)
The Department of Energy and Climate Change requires a cash advance of £4,069,000 from the Contingencies Fund to support urgent preparatory work to fund external advisers in relation to transitional arrangements for early investors and to fund an interim panel of technical experts before parliamentary approval of both the specific enabling legislation and the necessary estimate.
Contracts for difference (CfDs) are designed to ensure sufficient investment comes forward in time to replace old generating plant due to close from 2016 onwards with new low-carbon plant, thus ensuring continued security of supply for the UK and contributing significantly towards achievement of our legally binding EU renewable energy target.
The Energy Bill will, subject to Royal Assent, make provision for transitional arrangements to enable developers to take investment decisions, where required, ahead of full implementation of electricity market reform. The Department needs to engage external advisers before the Bill receives Royal Assent to support the negotiation of any such arrangements to ensure they represent value for money for consumers. Accordingly, parliamentary approval for additional resources of £4,069,000 for this new service will be sought in a supplementary estimate for the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Pending that approval, urgent expenditure estimated at £4,069,000 will be met by repayable cash advances from the Contingencies Fund.
Gas Market Update
The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey)
Almost a year ago I informed Parliament that my Department and the Treasury had just been notified about allegations of manipulation of the UK gas market. As I said at that time, I take these allegations extremely seriously. Market abuse is always wrong, and where it exists it must be identified and the full force of the law applied.
The specific allegations were that there had been manipulation of the gas market in Great Britain on 28 September 2012. These allegations concerned trading on that day in the period leading up to 4.30 pm, when price reporting agencies produce a benchmark price for the day. Such benchmark prices are often used in a range of other contracts. It was alleged that gas was sold at a lower price than necessary, in order to manipulate downwards the benchmark price produced by price reporting agencies.
As is right and proper, these allegations were scrutinised by the independent regulators for the affected sectors. Ofgem has the lead responsibility for the physical energy markets, with the FCA leading on financial markets. The reviews entailed detailed analysis of relevant information in order to understand the market conditions and the trading positions of relevant market participants, including contracts priced by reference to price reporting agencies closing prices. Both reviews have now concluded.
Both regulators concluded that they could find no evidence in this instance of market manipulation, and Ofgem considers that the interests of energy consumers were therefore not harmed. They consider that the explanations provided by the sellers for the relevant trades are credible, and they have not found evidence which disputes the explanations provided. In light of this, they conclude that no further action is required in connection with these allegations.
Regardless of the outcome of these particular allegations I am fully committed to ensuring we have a transparent energy market where the risk of abuse is reduced. If any abuse does take place, it must be identified and robustly dealt with. The Government have a strong record of providing regulators with the powers they need to tackle market abuse, and we will continue to take further action where necessary.
We took a leading role in developing the EU regulation on wholesale energy market integrity and transparency—known as REMIT. REMIT prohibits insider trading and market manipulation in wholesale energy markets across the EU and has been in force since 28 December 2011. The UK was one of the first countries to implement REMIT in full, when we put in place civil powers to allow the regulator to tackle manipulation of the energy markets, in June 2013. In view of the importance of the energy markets set out in the annual energy statement I now plan to consult on the introduction of criminal sanctions for energy market manipulation activities.
Ofgem continues to monitor wholesale energy markets, and has an established whistleblower policy to encourage people to bring any examples of market abuse to its attention. REMIT already requires those organising transactions in wholesale markets to report suspicious trades to Ofgem. Ofgem is also working with European colleagues to further develop our cross-border REMIT market monitoring systems.
The allegations in this case were that prices used by price reporting agencies were manipulated. We need confidence that there is a rigorous price assessment process, providing a fair assessment of the market. Ofgem therefore ran a call for evidence on benchmarks in gas and electricity sectors on: potential risks; whether the current processes are fit for purpose; and whether further action is necessary. Ofgem is currently analysing the responses received. It will be for Ofgem to set out its approach, but if action is warranted its responses could range from facilitating effective self-regulation by PRAs, to more significant regulatory interventions. Whatever approach is adopted must take account of international initiatives in this area. PRAs are already implementing principles for oil benchmarks developed by the International Organisation of Securities Commissions (IOSCO) at the G20’s request. We are working within the EU to ensure that any new regulation of PRAs under their proposed benchmarks regulation enhances the robustness of energy benchmarks
Transparency in the energy market is another important element of our overall approach to deterring market abuse. That is why I have asked Ofgem to carry out a detailed assessment of energy suppliers’ financial reporting practices and set out the necessary steps to improve transparency. This assessment will be delivered by spring 2014. In addition, the Prime Minister has announced that Ofgem, OFT and the new Competition Markets Authority will lead a new annual review into the state of the competition of the market.
Ofgem and FCA work independently of Government to ensure that regulations are not being breached. In this case, they have concluded that they could find no evidence of manipulation and Ofgem considers the interests of consumers have therefore not been harmed. But it is right and proper that they continue to be vigilant and we will continue to support them by ensuring the right regulatory framework is in place and that there are appropriate deterrents.
Transforming Management of Young Adults in Custody
(11 years ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Jeremy Wright)
I am today announcing the publication of the Government’s consultation “Transforming Management of Young Adults in Custody”.
This Government feel that current provision for young adults in custody, who are 18 to 20, does not adequately meet their needs and does not make the best use of available resources for this age group.
With that in mind, this consultation document outlines the Government’s proposed fresh approach to managing young adults in custody, which moves the focus from age-specific institutions to looking at how we can better meet their rehabilitation and resettlement needs.
We have already taken substantial steps towards reforming how we manage adults in custody, particularly in terms of ensuring that prisoners are better aligned towards release into their home communities. We want to ensure that young adults can fully benefit from our proposals around transforming rehabilitation, including resettlement prisons and through the gate provision. We want to make sure that young adults who are on longer-term sentences are allocated to the most suitable institutions to meet their rehabilitation needs.
The Government accept that some young adults have complex needs, and we want to target our resources more effectively to meet these. We strongly welcome the views of those with an interest in young adult offenders, which will inform this work as it moves forward.
The consultation period will last for six weeks during which time the MOJ will actively engage with stakeholders.
Copies of this Government consultation will be available in the Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office.
An online version of the consultation will be available at: www.gov.uk/moj.
Workplace Pensions
(11 years ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)
Today I am publishing the Command Paper “Reshaping Workplace Pensions for Future Generations”. This sets out proposals to enable new forms of risk sharing in pension schemes. It builds on our strategy “Reinvigorating workplace pensions”, published in November 2012.
The current defined benefit and defined contribution pension arrangements place risk at polar extremes. In defined benefit schemes the risks are home by the employer who sponsors the scheme, whereas in defined contribution schemes the risks lie with the individual scheme member.
The shift away from traditional defined benefit is a long-term trend which, given the very different social and economic environment we are now in, is not going to change, unless we act now.
Automatic enrolment and the single-tier state pension will provide a firm foundation for saving for retirement. But if the current forms of defined contribution pension saving become the default alternative to traditional defined benefit pensions, scheme members will face uncertainty over the level of income they can expect in retirement.
Over the last year we have worked closely with employers and with representatives from across the pension industry to explore options for creating a new defined ambition pension category where risks (including inflation, investment and longevity) can be shared between a number of parties.
The consultation sets out our proposals for defined ambition pensions. These include:
Creating a new pensions regulatory framework that would allow for greater risk-sharing between parties, which could include employers, members, and insurers and investment managers.
Deregulating to allow a new flexible form of defined benefit pensions, that will enable employers to continue to offer pensions to members with a high level of certainty, but with much greater flexibility over the nature of benefits provided.
Enabling the development of new forms of defined contribution schemes that could provide more certainty for members without adding to employer liabilities.
Enabling new models of collective defined contribution schemes that could provide for risk sharing between members.
The Command Paper will also be available on the gov.uk website and the consultation closes on 19 December 2013. Subject to the outcome of the consultation, we aim to consult on draft legislation in the new year.
Grand Committee
Middle East: Situation of Women
Baroness Hussein-Ece
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the situation of women in the Middle East after the events of the Arab Spring.
Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)
My Lords, when Tunisian Mohamed Bouazizi set himself on fire in December 2010, he became the catalyst for a wave of protests that triggered revolutions against dictatorial regimes that had ruled the Middle East for decades and generations. These protest movements called for social justice for impoverished citizens who faced rising unemployment, reduced living standards and a lack of political freedom and free speech. Men and women all wanted dignity as well as democracy. While each country had its own specific challenges and difficulties, these common themes emerged as calls from the protestors began to echo across the region. The demand for human rights came from both men and women, with women playing an active and unprecedented role in the protests and revolutions.
The changes sweeping countries affected by the events of the Arab uprisings presented opportunities to establish real progressive changes in the attitudes towards and treatment of women across the Arab world. However, in taking a long, hard look, and despite the existence of international resolutions drafted to protect and empower women, the challenges facing women remain overwhelming. In particular, the initial small gains made by women on the front lines of their respective revolutions are in real danger of regression as religious and male-dominated conservatism occupies the power vacuum in some countries.
The Arab uprisings were, it is fair to say, among the most important and powerful events of the past 100 years, some say since the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The aftermath of the revolutions has brought a backlash against the rights of citizens, particularly women, when we contrast the current status of women’s rights in these countries with the roles played by women of all ages, ideologies, ethnicities and social backgrounds in the uprisings in countries such as Tunisia, Egypt and Yemen. When dictators began to fall, there was relief and a sense that women would be able to gain political empowerment. The Arab spring signalled many new beginnings, possibilities and, most of all, hope for a better future. On 25 January 2011, as we watched millions of Egyptians demonstrating in Tahrir Square, demanding jobs, freedom, social justice and the removal of the then President Mubarak, the voices of millions of women, Copts, Muslims and Bedouin stood together in a truly historical moment.
Another triumph for women during the Arab spring was their constant presence throughout the social media sphere. Some commentators dubbed it the “social media revolution” and debate has continued about the effects and role of social media in the Arab spring. It marked a turning point of instant news and access to what was happening on the ground. I read many tweets from women in real time who were taking part in a revolution. Yet these women found themselves suddenly targeted by the authorities and by factions. We saw the horror of violence against women unfold in Tahrir Square. It was clear that those carrying out gang rapes were organised, well paid and well protected. They were in the hundreds. Did it stop the women? The following days saw the insurgence of women protesters boldly increasing—multiplied, loud and fearless.
The Egyptian experience perhaps brought a sharp focus upon these attacks. During the Tahrir Square protests, most shockingly, there were numerous reports of police sexual attacks on female protestors—and, infamously, the virginity tests. Egyptian military doctors subjected some female demonstrators to invasive virginity tests, following police arrests for demonstrating. A young Egyptian woman, Samira Ibrahim fought to take her case to court, along with other female protestors. While an order was put out demanding an end to the practice, the military court cleared the doctor who had performed the test. These appalling tactics were used to scare off the growing presence of women during the Egyptian protests.
Alongside these reports came stories of the sexual assault of female journalists. CBS reporter Lara Logan came to the attention of western media when she reported her story of having been sexually assaulted by men while she was reporting at the demonstrations. Following this, further stories reported a young British journalist, Natasha Smith, and an American-Egyptian commentator, Mona Eltahawy, were subjected to similar attacks. So when dictators began to fall, there was relief that women would be able to taste what political empowerment felt like. The Arab spring signalled many new beginnings, possibilities and most of all, hope for a better future. However the rise to power of religiously-dominated patriarchal parties in Tunisia, Egypt, Morocco and Libya meant new restrictions imposed on women. The post-revolution regression of female equality has been most acute in Egypt, first and disappointingly under the elected Government of the Muslim Brotherhood, and presently under the transitional Government. Women were not represented at all in the constitutional committee under the Muslim Brotherhood, and though they now make up 5% of the membership under the transitional Government, they remain largely isolated from decision-making positions and structures.
In Morocco, there were eight women in the previous Cabinet; today there is only one. Earlier this year, the Moroccan Parliament adopted a decree lowering the age of marriage for girls from 18 to 16, which is considered a major setback. A first draft of the electoral law in Libya reserved 10% of seats in the constituent assembly for women, but the quota was later abandoned. In Yemen, despite the country’s commitment to international women’s rights conventions, the transitional Government has failed to implement and enforce even existing laws designed to protect women. In Syria, the situation is most acute and declining. The conflict, ongoing since early 2012, has left more than 100,000 Syrians dead—including 6,000 children—and estimates for Syrian refugees living in Lebanon now top 1 million. Refugees, in particular women, have faced isolation, marginalisation and violence in refugee camps. Many of these women refugees face sexual harassment in public places such as where they obtain their assistance coupons. Those left fighting for democratic choice within Syria face disproportionate punishment for their actions, including detainment, torture and assault. Syrian women leaders have emphasised the urgent need for Geneva II—which has sadly been delayed yet again—and for Syrian women to be part of that political process.
On 29 October, Syrian activists and leaders gathered alongside 80 others in Jordan for the Arab Regional Training on Women, Peace and Security, organised by women’s rights organisation Karama in partnership with the UN Women’s Fund for Gender Equality and the UN Development Programme. It was held to build the capacity of civil society leaders to implement international resolutions on women, peace and security, and to lobby for national action plans advocating women’s inclusion in the transition and the peacebuilding process. When we reflect on what the Arab spring did, it would be impossible to provide a full analysis of its effects on the lives of women, primarily because in many instances the Arab spring—or autumn as it has now been dubbed—continues in various forms, as the many countries continue to adjust constantly to new rules of law, governance and uncertainty. However, for the first time in recent Middle Eastern history, women played a crucial role in defining their country’s future. It gave women a platform for their voices to be heard and their stories to be shared, but the news, as I have briefly outlined, is not promising. Many women feel their lives and their rights have deteriorated. Rebeca Grynspan, the UN Under-Secretary-General and associate administrator of the UN Development Programme, stated:
“The character of this century will be determined by our ability to walk towards gender equality. All the studies not only suggest that if you tackle gender equality, you empower women, but you also will be much more effective in fighting poverty and hunger”.
The measure of democratic success is weighed in the treatment of women, their advancements in politics, media and social spaces and the ways in which women’s issues are defined and responded to. I would therefore ask for an assurance from the Minister that, when meeting delegations or when Geneva II is finally convened, the United Kingdom will take a strong lead in ensuring that there will be representation from women and that women’s rights will be on the table and part of that discussion. It surely cannot be right that women’s voices continue to be suppressed by male-dominated talks that affect the lives of 50% of the MENA—Middle East and north Africa—countries. I am grateful for the helpful briefing from Karama, whose founder is Hibaaq Osman. I look forward to hearing from other noble Lords, in particular from my noble friend Lady Hodgson, who will be making her maiden speech.
Baroness Tonge (Ind LD)
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on securing this very important debate. The position of women in the Middle East is a constant source of concern for many of us. At first, I thought that the so-called Arab spring was good news for women in those countries but, sadly, the effects are not proving universally beneficial.
Women played a great role in many countries’ demonstrations and protests. As we have heard, they were not afraid to be out on the streets with their men, and they displayed even greater courage than our own sisters in the suffragette movement did at the beginning of the last century. In fact, it is not very long since women in this country had few rights.
The Arab spring started in Tunisia and spread quickly. The leaders of Egypt, Libya and Yemen were overthrown. The protests in Syria have led to a tragic civil war in that most beautiful country. Before the Arab uprisings, women enjoyed some rights—Islam did not mean necessarily that women were oppressed. Although not strictly an Arab country—and I have to put in a plug here—Iran was and is quite remarkable in its encouragement of women’s education and their freedom to use contraception. Iran is often quoted in family planning circles for its amazing 1.9 fertility rate. That is less than the replacement level and it means that women are having fewer children.
Family planning, despite the ayatollahs, is thriving in Islamic Iran. In some countries where Islamists predominantly led the uprisings, there has been a falling back for women’s rights and freedom, but not in Iran. It was beginning to happen in Egypt under the Morsi presidency, where women’s rights were being talked about. However, that was a tragedy for Egypt because, together with other restrictions that we have heard about, it gave a cause célèbre for a coup by the army, which I have to say should have been condemned by our Government. Whether we like them or not, the way for democratically elected Governments in the Middle East—the Hamas-led Government in Palestine was another example in 2006—to be removed is at the ballot box, not at the point of a gun. I do not like the coalition Government very much, as noble Lords may have noticed, but we have to wait until they are dispatched, or not, at the next election. We lose all credibility if we preach democracy and then refuse to recognise the decision of the electorate in other countries.
I want to make a special plea for our Government to recognise what has been going on in Bahrain since the Arab uprisings and to recognise the treatment of women there in particular. Hundreds of women have been sacked for participating in pro-democracy demonstrations, and even those who got their jobs back have had to give up their trade union membership and employment rights. They cannot vote or participate in any way with the political process there. Women have been arrested in their homes in the middle of the night; they have been tortured and sexually abused; and some have gone on hunger strike.
A teacher who led a protest march—I have the details—was arrested, tortured, sentenced and refused permission to work again. A young mother and activist—sick with cancer, as it happened—was made to stand in a doorway while she was sexually abused, all for wearing a political T-shirt. A heavily pregnant woman was jailed with no charge because she objected to her husband’s arrest at a checkpoint. At least 13 women have died in Bahrain, with no one being held accountable.
There are many other examples—I have a long list—and the men have suffered too, but this is a country that we are friends with. It is our ally and supplier of oil, and we have done nothing about these abuses during the uprisings in Bahrain. We should be ashamed. Sooner or later, this will all come back to haunt us.
Finally, there is some good news. Over the past 10 years, a quiet revolution has been going on in the Middle East. Health services and education have improved in most countries, although sadly not in Yemen. Iraq had very fine health services but they are subject to great strain at the moment. Gender equality has been achieved in education in most Middle Eastern countries, although, as we have heard, opportunities afterwards are still very limited. Maternal mortality has dropped dramatically, although again, not in Yemen. In Yemen 110 women per 100,000 still lose their lives in childbirth, which is very high indeed, but in other countries the rate has come down and the most remarkable thing of all is that over the past 20 years women have been following the example of their sisters in Iran and accessing family planning to limit their families.
The Arab spring, we are told, was led by the explosion in the number of young people wanting a better, different life. The women want a better, different life but a researcher in the USA, Professor Eberstadt, calls it the “youth quake”, which I rather like. However, the drop in family size all over Middle Eastern countries will balance that out eventually and reap a huge benefit for women. Later marriage, which is also occurring, and fewer babies mean better health for women, a longer time in education, a better family income as mothers join the workforce and, I hope, more time to forge their way into the constipated—if noble Lords will excuse the medical term—male politics all over the Middle East. In the future we can expect a “women quake” and good luck to them. We will be here, ready to help.
Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con)
My Lords, it is an enormous honour to enter this House. I rise with some trepidation to make my maiden speech and I am delighted to be able to do so on this important subject. I begin by thanking my supporters and all who have made me so incredibly welcome. I am truly grateful to Peers on all sides of the House and to all the staff. Although new to the Palace of Westminster, I am not new to the political world, having worked for many years as a volunteer in the Conservative Party, including chairing the Conservative Women’s Organisation, being an elected member on the board and chairing the Conservative Party conference in 2011.
On a visit to Washington with the Conservative Women’s Organisation in 2006, we met groups of women from Afghanistan and Iraq. Talking to them made me realise how difficult their lives were and encouraged me on my return to set up the Conservative Women’s Muslim Group to promote understanding and dialogue. That meeting awoke in me a very strong interest in international women’s issues, particularly in conflict and post-conflict countries, which I have continued to work on since, including visiting a number of such countries to listen to the women there. I also sit on the steering board of the Foreign Secretary’s initiative to prevent sexual violence in conflict countries and I pay him great tribute for his courage and resolve in driving this subject up the global political agenda.
Time is short so I now turn to the subject of our discussion. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness for securing this debate about the situation of women after the Arab spring—or rather, the Arab storm, as described by a Tunisian friend—because where regime change has occurred, women’s rights are rolling backwards. I begin by quoting from a Saferworld report entitled It’s Dangerous to be the First:
“Women’s visibility in the 2011 wave of protests that shook the Middle East marked a watershed. Although women’s activism was not new in 2011, their centrality to the uprisings was remarkable. In the political transitions that followed, women appear to have come under increased pressure to ‘leave politics to men’ and ‘return to normalcy’”.
Looking to Egypt, Tunisia and Libya, I should like to raise a couple of the most pressing issues. First, all these countries suffer from an enormous lack of security. This affects women disproportionately, making it extremely hard for them to take part in public life. Security and justice in these countries are in the hands of men. A Tunisian lawyer e-mailed me last week, saying:
“We are really suffering and struggling—terrorism now is a part of our living. The radical Islamist groups are out of control and they can act whenever and wherever they want”.
An activist from Women4Libya wrote similarly to me, saying:
“I’ve known many friends and family members who at the very worst are intimidated and are victims to theft, abductions, sexual harassment/attack and violent death”.
Also, we have seen in our media the reports of violence in Egypt, including women being sexually abused and raped in Tahrir Square. It was Jinnah, the founder of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, who said:
“No nation can ever be worthy of its existence that cannot take its women along with the men. No struggle can ever succeed without women participating side by side with men”.
Secondly, the writing of new constitutions is a source of much anxiety. Women’s voices need to be heard to ensure that gender equality is embedded. In September 2012, I participated in a British Council workshop in Tunis on drafting constitutions with Libyan women but I understand that only six seats of the 60-member constitutional drafting committee in Libya will be allocated to women.
Article 11 of the new Egyptian constitution of 2012 mandates the state,
“to guarantee equality between men and women in political, social, economic and cultural fields without breaching the principles of Islamic Sharia”.
However, Islamic Sharia can be interpreted to forbid women to go out unaccompanied, to encourage early marriage and to insist on their being veiled. Following the overthrow of the Muslim Brotherhood, a 50-member constituent assembly is tasked with amending this constitution, but only five members are women.
In Tunisia, although 27% of parliamentarians are women, nearly all come from the Islamist party, which fielded politically inexperienced women candidates. Thus, I am told that their participation in the writing of the constitution is almost worthless and they only toe the party line.
Across the whole region has crept a dangerous fundamentalist credo suggesting that women’s rights belong with the ousted dictators and that women in leadership roles is un-Islamic. To achieve true democracy in these countries there has to be peace, security and equality for everyone, not just for half the population. I would ask the Minister to ensure that the British Government exert all the influence that they can to enable women to play their equal and rightful part in helping to take their countries forward.
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, it is a privilege to welcome my noble friend Lady Hodgson to your Lordships’ House, particularly after such a thoroughly knowledgeable and passionate speech. As a former president of the Conservative Women’s Organisation, she joins an illustrious group of women on the Conservative Benches who have previously held that position: my noble friends Lady Byford, Lady Seccombe and Lady Anelay, who are with us this afternoon. I know that in that role she founded the Conservative Women’s Muslim Group, whose events I have had the privilege of attending. She is also known for her encouragement of many women in the preparatory stages of standing for election to the other place. Among her other roles outside your Lordships’ House, my noble friend Lady Hodgson is patron of the Afghan Connection and a member of the Association of Oxfam. I understand that she not only listens to women’s concerns but has unfortunately got a little too close to the action on occasion in Afghanistan. Of course, she is known for her expertise in gender issues and international development and will make a worthy contribution to your Lordships’ House, but I also know from having worked alongside her in Conservative Campaign Headquarters that she brings with her a natural warmth and kindness to everyone she meets.
For many women in the Middle East, the Arab spring has brought little change in terms of the law but not in terms of courage. The simple act of a woman driving a car in Saudi Arabia is a protest and putting such footage on YouTube is courageous, as every computer is, I believe, traceable by the regime. That shows how much we women sometimes take for granted in the UK but we should not be too complacent as Tunisia’s Parliament now has 27% women and the UK has only 23%. However, all eyes in the Arab world are on Egypt, which is currently writing its new constitution, and it is Egypt that I wish to focus on this afternoon.
The position of women in Egyptian society since the military intervention earlier this year has now arrived at a tipping point. Previously, under President Mubarak, women were sparse in the political arena and were not really visible. The protests in January 2011 included mass protest by women, and it looked as though the tide was turning. However, under the period of rule by SCAF and then President Morsi matters started to decline again.
In my own visit to Egypt in October 2011, I found women in Alexandria scared to go out in public. This was not only because the lack of a police force meant a decline in law and order, but because they felt under increased pressure to veil themselves whenever in public. Christian families were reportedly asking their daughters to wear headscarves so they could not be picked out in any way. The radicals were empowered as women were objectified. There were reports of acid attacks and other assaults, and the security forces did nothing.
However, I believe that two factors halted this declining trajectory. The Morsi regime tried to hand power to the Al-Azhar University, but the university refused to take it. Its members did not want to be the ultimate interpreters of the constitution in Egypt, which is what President Morsi offered them. They would not allow him to remove the Grand Imam, and I understand that in future that post will not be appointed by the President. These were key moves towards a theocratic state, and they were thwarted. As the only pan-Sunni institution to have survived the fall of the Caliphate in 1924, Al-Azhar’s influence extends across the Sunni world. I believe women across the region will in future be very grateful for the institutional independence and courage shown by Al-Azhar. I do hope that Her Majesty’s Government have thanked them too.
The second matter is the women themselves, who could see how this trajectory would affect them and their daughters in the future. A fear barrier was broken in 2011 and it was not going to be resurrected. Bishop Angaelos of the Coptic Orthodox Church in the United Kingdom, who was in Egypt during the anti-Morsi protests this year, recalled to me that he saw a young veiled woman in Tahrir Square holding a placard of Morsi with a red cross through it. This action would have been unthinkable three years ago, as would the current presence of women in the Egyptian media as talk show hosts and political commentators, and—due to the cost of living in Egypt—as an increasingly vital part of the labour market. Women have been given a platform and have risen to the occasion. Feminism is not being seen as some kind of foreign import but increasingly as an Egyptian value. Egyptian women were not going to allow the revolution of 2011 to be taken from them.
In Parliament last month, it was a privilege to hear from Mrs Mona Zulficar, vice-president of the Egyptian constitutional drafting committee and an international corporate lawyer. The very fact that a woman is in such a prominent and influential position is remarkable in itself, and her passion to ensure the rights of all Egyptians was matched only by her keenly felt responsibility on behalf of women across the Middle East and north Africa. Women’s rights groups from across the region have been contacting the Egyptian constitutional committee to say, “You have to get this right—you are our hope”.
Therefore I believe that the UK and the EU’s efforts for human rights and democracy need to focus urgently on Egypt. The immediate humanitarian crisis is of course Syria, but for the human rights and democracy brief and budget within the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Egypt should be the focus. Egypt is pivotal to change in this region.
I hope that my noble friend the Minister can indicate what projects Her Majesty’s Government fund in the democracy and human rights programme, and how these prioritise women’s rights. Television, particularly satellite television, has a huge influence in Egypt. Has Her Majesty’s Government considered funding programmes that would reinforce the role of women in society?
Much of UK taxpayer support to Egypt goes through the European Union. The disturbing reports of €0.5 billion of aid being unaccounted for are concerning, not least because this should have included at least £70 million of UK taxpayers’ money. As Karel Pinxten, the European Court of Auditors member responsible for the report into EU aid to Egypt, said:
“In the past, the Commission set forward some conditions for giving aid to the country in terms of human rights, in terms of democracy, in terms of public finance management, in terms of fighting corruption”.
If EU money from female UK taxpayers is to be invested in Egypt, at the moment it should be ploughed into projects that will support the courage of Egyptian women. Respecting the rights of women should be a condition of EU support.
Baroness Uddin
My Lords, I am proud of the Committee today because there is so much change in the tone of our discussion and so much agreement, which was not always the case across the House when I came in 1998. I thank my noble friend—I consider her to be a friend—Lady Hussein-Ece for allowing us to debate this issue, and I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Hodgson. We have shared many platforms on gender matters. It is a tribute to her that I never knew that she was such a staunch Tory Party member. I look forward to hearing from her and working with her on many more occasions.
The Arab spring was the people’s revolt against dictatorships and authoritarian regimes, although its impact on women remains unclear. Women stood hand in hand and shoulder to shoulder with their men in Tunis, Egypt, Bahrain, Yemen and elsewhere. They protested and led and organised protesters, spending days and months at the coal face of the revolution and making sure that their voices were heard across the globe.
I had the privilege of visiting Tunis following the toppling of the military rule—a couple of days after, in fact—and a few of us stood and talked with protesters on the square and with those occupying the presidential palaces. We witnessed men and women standing together for their country’s future. As a mere observer, I believed, like many others, that women would participate in the development and building of their new nations and Governments. Political parties on the ground acknowledged the importance of including women in governance. A report by UN Women noted that the high presence of women protesters calling for change raised hopes for freedom and equality for men and women in Arab societies, and it said that it was an exciting moment to hear women’s political voices campaigning for democracy. Women were able to express opinions publicly, not only about dictatorship but about their aspirations for a better future, education, employment, justice and peace. Significantly—this is a point on which I want to concentrate—many women reported their experience of violence and sexual assault, particularly at the hands of military personnel, when they took part in protests or were arrested.
As the revolution has descended into chaos, murder, summary justice, judicial killing and civil war, women and children have suffered mortifying violence, the cruellest conditions and punishment. Vulnerable women protestors were raped, beaten and arrested as a way to deter them from being on the street. Rape has been reported in Egypt, Syria and Libya, as well as in the refugee camps, where women are fleeing persecution and seeking shelter from harm.
In 2010, I raised the matter of rape as a weapon of war and conflict, and I drew your Lordships’ attention to rape being used as a weapon during the war between Pakistan and Bangladesh, when hundreds of thousands of women were raped, tortured or killed. Many have since died without seeing the perpetrators brought before the courts, without having their struggles believed and without seeing justice. We have come far since then and I applaud the Foreign Secretary for his leadership in getting rape on the agenda. I remain concerned, however, that the practicality of implementing our good intentions has yet to be worked out. Rape, including of children, continues to be used widely in today’s global conflicts. Does the Minister believe that measures are in place to ensure that agencies working on the ground can record allegations of rape so that the perpetrators can be identified and brought to justice? More importantly, what resources and medical support are being made available to women who report rape?
The Arab uprising was undoubtedly a crossroads for many women in the Arab world. It opened up dialogue with women in countries and across borders and regional boundaries, aided by technology and the Facebook generation. It gave many more women a platform for their voices to be heard, albeit temporarily. The opinions of women are now extremely divided. Many have argued that the situation of women in the region has worsened post-revolution and that the uprising has eroded many of the legal frameworks that were in place and which provided some protection and some rights for women.
Samira Ibrahim wrote that a revolution has come and gone but done little for Arab women. Domestic violence, forced marriage and female genital mutilation are still part of the status quo across a region covering more than 20 countries and 350 million people. Another journalist, Mona Eltahawy, wrote that:
“Until the rage shifts from the oppressors in our presidential palaces to the oppressors on our streets and in our homes, our revolution has not even begun”.
Whatever the reality on the ground, we can be certain that the uprising has wider implications. While the regimes changed in Egypt and Tunisia, calls to introduce democratic reforms have swept the region, and two of them are notable. In 2011, Moroccans overwhelmingly voted for a new constitution to include pledges to achieve equality and to,
“ban and eliminate discrimination according to gender”.
In Saudi Arabia, where the uprising may or may not have been seen as a contributory factor, however small, towards enfranchising Saudi women, a number of women have been appointed to the Shura Council and are to be given the right to vote and to stand for election in coming years. Of course, we have to be cautious and guarded. Nevertheless, we should acknowledge that the world today is a very different place from the world of 20 to 30 years ago. There have been positive steps; namely, that 139 countries and territories now guarantee gender equality in their constitutions. However, we know that none of this means an end to injustice, violence and inequality either in women’s homes or in their working lives, just as we continue our own struggle in the West and elsewhere in the world. The transformation may take generations. Given the volatility in the region, it is difficult to predict the impact of the revolution on the status of Arab women as political, social and economical changes are in transit.
Women were leaders in the uprising, campaigning for democracy, justice and peace, and demanding a say in how their countries and futures are to be shaped. It would be reckless and unwise to conclude that the Arab spring brought equal rights to women and men, but those women made historic efforts which will have defined a generation. I hope that, for our part, we will not abandon them as they march on.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece, for initiating this debate. I also congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hodgson of Abinger, on her excellent maiden speech. As chair of the advisory board, Gender Action for Peace and Security, she has played a pivotal role on a cross-party basis in ensuring that this issue remains high on the policy agenda. I thank her for that. In particular, I pay tribute to GAPS for its No Women No Peace campaign, calling on the UK Government to honour commitments made to women in conflict.
As we have heard, a key characteristic of the popular uprisings in the Middle East and the north Africa region was the prominent role of women. As the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, described, there were women who were engaged in protesting, blogging, hunger-striking and organising. They were, in the spring of 2011, and continue to be a powerful force for change. However, as the noble Baronesses, Lady Hussein-Ece and Lady Hodgson, described, they are becoming increasingly sidelined from the future of their nations through a lack of inclusion in peace talks and constitution negotiations.
The report published in September by CARE International, circulated in the briefing for today’s debate, outlined just how much international donor policy needed to adapt in the wake of the Arab spring. It drew on the experiences of more than 300 men and women in Egypt, Morocco, Yemen and the Occupied Palestinian Territories, and found that the outlook for women in the region remains uncertain. Nearly all Middle Eastern countries in the World Economic Forum’s Global Gender Gap Report scored more poorly in 2012 than they did in 2011. At the same time, the uprisings created an explosion of new activism by women, and they are making themselves heard in transition processes such as the National Dialogue Conference in Yemen.
What is clear from the heartfelt accounts in the report is that the international community should invest in longer-term development programmes that will change the attitudes and practices that are a barrier to women’s participation in public life. We should support initiatives that will bridge the religious-secular divide that is becoming increasingly polarised. As the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, said, women’s involvement on the front lines of the Arab spring has also been characterised by exclusion and systematic violence. Sexual assault, gang rape and public beatings were used to discourage women from taking part.
The EU meeting with Ministers from the Middle East and north Africa in Paris on 12 September on strengthening the role of women in society coincided with EU negotiations to review and revise aid and trade relations with the countries of the MENA region. While the EU has committed to promoting a “more for more” approach, whereby aid recipient states receive funding if they implement democratic reforms, the approach does not explicitly mention women’s rights. That was a point highlighted by the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge. How does the Minister think the EU will hold recipient countries to account if they fail to respect the rights of women to take part in decision-making institutions and processes?
Will the Minister indicate what steps the Government will take to factor benchmarks on women’s rights alongside wider benchmarks on good governance and human rights into the UK’s and the EU’s aid, trade and wider economic co-operation with states in the Middle East? How will he ensure that women’s rights organisations are consulted on the development of these benchmarks? An environment should be supported whereby women politicians, women’s rights organisations and women’s rights activists can freely operate and be protected from intimidation. The Government should ensure flexible funding mechanisms for women’s rights organisations so that capacity can be built and improved and communications can be established, and they should ensure that they have the resources to participate in the future direction of their nations.
In the recent debate on Syria, I referred to Oxfam’s report Shifting Sands, which highlighted that many refugee women and girls no longer have access to the resources and services that they used to have in Syria before the conflict began that enabled them to fulfil their traditional gender roles. I once again ask the Minister what assessment the Government have made and what action they are taking to understand and tailor policies to the impact of the crisis on the women affected, including violence against women and girl refugees. What steps will Her Majesty’s Government—both DfID and the FCO—take to work with Jordan, Lebanon and other states that are accepting refugees from Syria to support women refugees in earning a dignified livelihood, recognising the concerns from the local population and national authorities about the uncertain economic impact?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece for bringing such an important issue to the Committee, and all noble Lords who have participated in this important debate. It would be remiss of me not to single out my noble friend Lady Hodgson, who I welcome to our Benches in the House of Lords and congratulate on her excellent maiden speech. It was both thoughtful and reflective of her great expertise across many areas, but particularly in the international field in relation to women’s rights. I look forward to working with her in the years ahead on this issue and on other matters. I wish her a very warm welcome.
I congratulate all noble Lords on their contributions. The noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, made a point about there being agreement across the board, and I believe that on this issue we all stand as one.
The UK strives to promote gender equality and to tackle violence against women as a matter of principle. We believe that human rights are universal and should apply equally to all people, regardless of gender. Where women have equal access to education, healthcare and political and economic opportunities, societies, as several noble Lords have mentioned, are healthier, more prosperous and more peaceful.
We all remember the Arab spring in 2011. Those who looked at their television screens and those who tweeted or went on to Facebook would have seen those great flags of hope, as young men and, importantly, young women came out in the hope of a new beginning. They took courageous stands in protests across the region, and enduring symbols of the Arab spring stay with us today. Men, women, youngsters and the old participated together in demonstrations, calling for a realisation of their political and economic aspirations. The noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury, highlighted that very well.
Since then, some—I use that word carefully—progress has been made. Many women have participated in democratic elections for the first time, shaping new Governments. In Libya, for example, women’s groups play an important role in civil society, but as my noble friend Lady Hodgson pointed out, many challenges remain in terms of political participation.
In Yemen, women now hold 126 of the 565—that is, 22%—seats in the National Dialogue Conference. I did a bit of a self-test here. I went to our House of Commons, where there are currently 146 women out of the 650 representatives, which I believe is also 22%, so perhaps the focus is not just, as it is today, on the MENA region; there is also much work for us to do elsewhere.
Prominent women are taking the lead in their societies. Let us not forget Tawakkol Karman, who jointly won the 2011 Nobel Peace Prize for non-violent struggle for the safety of women and for women’s rights to full participation in peacebuilding work. I have also learnt recently that she has given back the $500,000 that she won to be used in greater fights for freedoms and equality in her country. Earlier this year, my noble friend the Senior Minister of State for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Lady Warsi, met another prominent woman from the region, the United Arab Emirates’ Development Minister, Sheikha Lubna.
However, challenges remain. As my noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece highlighted, the future for many women across the region remains uncertain, and there have not been the gains that we had hoped for—and, more importantly, that those in the region had hoped for—in democratic or political participation and opportunity. Let us be clear: women are underrepresented at senior levels of government and commerce in the region. Moreover, they often face basic economic inequalities, such as pay gaps.
The challenge is compounded by the political crises affecting parts of the region. Many noble Lords have rightly referred to Syria, where women face the challenges inherent in living in a conflict situation. In Libya, many women have become victims of sexual and domestic violence, as the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, highlighted, and there is weak access to medical services. In Yemen, increased instability since 2011 has seen a major humanitarian crisis. As my noble friend Lady Berridge highlighted, the hopes that we saw in Tahrir Square in Egypt have not been realised in terms of political participation.
So what is the UK doing? Several noble Lords raised questions, and it is right that we highlight the steps that the Government have taken and continue to take. We recognise that increasing women’s participation is a vital part of supporting transitions and building stability in the region. As such, the UK is taking strong action to support women’s empowerment through a number of approaches.
The noble Lord, Lord Collins, and my noble friend Lady Berridge raised the issue of the EU fund and the donor policy. We have set up the Arab Partnership Fund, which was created in 2011 to support positive long-term reform in the region, and more than £110 million has been allocated between 2011 and 2015. Last year, approximately £2.6 million of that fund was allocated to projects that specifically benefited women. In Egypt, for example, we have provided assistance to women candidates in local elections. In Libya, we have funded work to strengthen women’s participation in the General National Congress. In Morocco, we are working to establish a women’s affairs committee in Parliament.
We have supported women’s economic empowerment in the region through our presidency of the G8 Deauville partnership. As part of that, we hosted a two-day conference in June on women’s economic empowerment, focused on creating business links between female entrepreneurs in the G8 and the region.
The noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, spoke with great clarity about some of the challenges faced by women and raised the issue of Bahrain and the Government’s position. Let me assure her that Her Majesty’s Government continue to work on supporting the process of national dialogue and political reform in Bahrain, including promoting international human rights standards and political reform. Those are key parts of the dialogue and in all our representations at ministerial level, we remind the Bahraini Government of that.
During the recent event, the DfID Secretary of State, my right honourable friend Justine Greening, announced the creation of an Arab women in business challenge fund. The UK has contributed £10 million to this fund, which will co-finance initiatives with the private sector to deliver new job opportunities for women in the region. The UK has also been working with several major law firms to establish a legal task force to recommend ways to address legal barriers to women’s economic participation. Additionally, we have selected women’s empowerment as one of the three themes of our work as co-chair of the G8-BMENA process. The aim of that work is to bring civil society and Governments in the region closer together.
I pay tribute to the work of my noble friend Lady Hodgson on the steering board currently advising the Foreign Secretary on his initiative to prevent sexual violence in conflict and post-conflict countries. The Foreign Secretary has made clear the priority he gives that issue, and it provides a further opportunity to engage with Governments in the region on women’s rights. The declaration of commitment to end sexual violence in conflict that the Foreign Secretary launched at the United Nations on 24 September has so far been endorsed by 134 countries, including almost all countries in the region. The noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, also spoke about that issue. I assure her that in all our discussions, whenever we meet Governments from across the MENA region, we raise the issue with them and the instances of human rights abuses, particularly sexual violence against women.
On Syria, we are undertaking gender-focused aid as part of our broader £500 million humanitarian relief effort to Syria and its neighbours. We are encouraging greater women’s participation in and around the Geneva II peace talks on Syria. Under the Preventing Sexual Violence Initiative, we are also focusing on improving advocacy for women’s rights. We are training doctors and human rights defenders to document human rights abuses, including sexual violence, with a view to assisting future transitional justice efforts.
Picking up a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, health services have shown improvement in those countries, but more needs to be done, particularly on sensitivity to some of the issues surrounding women.
As I said, through Geneva II, we recognise the Syrian National Council as the sole legitimate representative of the Syrian people. As part of our efforts with international partners, we seek to ensure that the coalition is able to reflect and meet the aspirations of all Syrian people and reflect the representation of women in its membership.
On Egypt, I assure my noble friend Lady Berridge that FCO Ministers have made clear in their contacts with the Egyptian authorities that women’s participation is a key part of supporting transition and building stability. We will continue to raise the issue.
My noble friend Lady Hodgson raised the issue of low female representation—six seats out of 60—in Libya. We continue to urge the Libyan Government to ensure that women’s rights are fully protected under the new constitution.
I have given just some of the initiatives we are taking but the UK is working hard to strengthen the role of women across the MENA region. I fully accept that many challenges remain and the opportunities afforded by the transitions in the region have yet to lead to widespread concrete and sustainable gains for women. Now is not the time to draw back our efforts, and we shall not, but rather to maintain and strengthen them. The potential gains are huge. For example, research has shown that if female employment rates in Egypt matched those of men, GDP would increase by 34% by 2020.
In conclusion, women played a key role in the demonstrations of the Arab spring and there is an absolute need to ensure that they continue to take a central and pivotal role as we build the democracies and new constitutions of the region. This Government remain committed to backing those aspirations and to turning that hope into reality. We stood with many of the protesters in these countries—men, women, the elderly and children—as they sought to bring change, and we will stand with them in their transitional progress. We heard about the vision of Muhammad Ali Jinnah in the formation of Pakistan but perhaps many of the countries that put Islam at their centre need to reflect on the origins of Islam, where women played a pivotal and central role in the empowerment and progression of the faith. I end with a quote from another lady who inspired many. Those who wish to give up hope should remember Eleanor Roosevelt’s words:
“The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams”.
Baroness Hussein-Ece
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that very comprehensive and informative reply. I think it was very well made.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall
My Lords, I hesitate to interrupt the noble Baroness but I fear she does not have the right to reply on this occasion.
OSCE: Helsinki+40 Process
(11 years ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Bowness
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their priorities for the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe Helsinki+40 discussions; and what progress has been made.
Lord Bowness (Con)
My Lords, I will endeavour to comply with the rubric to limit this debate to 60 minutes. I note that the second rubric, however, limits me and all other speakers except the Minister to 10 minutes. Should I err, I will rely on the former rather than the latter.
My Lords, 2015 is the 40th anniversary of the Helsinki Final Act in which the participating states agreed principles to govern relations between member states and to work through three security dimensions or pillars: political and military; economic and environmental; and human aspects. I, the noble Baroness, Lady Hilton of Eggardon, the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, and 10 Members from the other place form the United Kingdom delegation to the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly.
In January 2012 I asked what the Government’s assessment was of the role of the OSCE and whether they had any plans to increase awareness of it. On that occasion, the Minister made clear the Government’s support for the organisation and noted the difficulties under which it worked, especially the need for consensus. That is understood.
The Question before the Committee this afternoon was on the Order Paper for debate on a Thursday in late June, but since it attracted no more speakers than are due to participate today, I withdrew the same. Of course, today’s tabling now clashes with major debates on China and the Armed Forces. Nevertheless, it is perhaps surprising that in general there is so little interest in the affairs of the OSCE, which should be of some concern to Her Majesty’s Government if they still believe in the organisation.
I know that the noble Lord responding for the Opposition and my noble friend the Minister will be familiar with the OSCE and all its works, and for that reason I will not go into its role at great length. However, I should like to point out for the record that the OSCE’s own website tells the inquirer that there are 57 participating states. Its membership stretches from Vancouver to Vladivostok. All the largest and smallest countries in Europe and Eurasia are members. Mongolia has recently joined.
The OSCE addresses subjects as important and varied as arms control, confidence and security-building measures, human rights, national minorities, the democratic process, policing, counterterrorism and environmental activities. There is a ministerial council, which normally meets once a year. There is a permanent council and a Forum for Security and Co-Operation, which meet weekly in Vienna. The Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights works on the commitment to democracy and human rights and plays a particular role in monitoring elections. Other offices deal with freedom of the media, national minorities and conflict prevention. That is not a comprehensive list.
Important work is done in field missions, which are located in what is a roll call of areas of concern to this country and our European partners. The tasks undertaken include the training of police, judiciary and border control staff.
The OSCE’s website tells me that it employs 550 people in the various institutions and 2,330 in the field operations. The 2013 budget is nearly €145 million, of which the UK pays 9.3%. Excluding expenditure on field missions, the EU member states together contribute some 70%. I suggest that the organisation has a potentially important role, which I accept is made more difficult by the need for consensus and the fact that decisions, even if taken, are binding only politically and not legally. It is against that background that I formally ask the Question on the Order Paper this afternoon.
At the ministerial council in December 2012, the then chairman in office, Ireland’s Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Foreign Affairs, said:
“I am delighted that we have agreed to launch the Helsinki+40 process, setting out a clear path from now until 2015 for work which will significantly strengthen the Organization”.
The ministerial decision issued by the organisation, in language rather more opaque than that, welcomed,
“the initiative to launch the ‘Helsinki+40’ process as an inclusive effort by all participating States to provide strong and continuous political impetus to advancing work towards a security community, and further strengthening our co-operation in the OSCE on the way towards 2015”.
In that decision, forthcoming chairmanships were tasked with,
“establishing an open-ended informal Helsinki+40 Working Group at the level of … participating states”.
It requested,
“the current and incoming members of the Troika”—
the past, present and immediate future chairmen—
“and forthcoming Chairmanships”,
which means Ukraine, Ireland, Switzerland and Serbia,
“to propose the agenda of meetings of the …Working Group”.
It tasked the forthcoming chairmanships and the Secretary-General,
“to regularly take stock of progress made under the Helsinki+40 process, and report to the participating States twice a year, before the summer recess”—
I presume a report was made before the summer recess—
“and before the meeting of the … Ministerial Council”,
which will be in Kiev in December.
The enthusiasm for the whole process was shared by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, who said:
“A key outcome was agreement on a new initiative designed to inject a fresh dynamic into the OSCE as we approach the 40th anniversary of the Helsinki Final Act”.
Indeed, the American Permanent Representative, speaking to a working group meeting, said that,
“it is essential that civil society has a voice and prominent role in Helsinki+40 discussions”.
I ask Her Majesty’s Government what has been achieved in the light of that ambitious decision. What are the goals that Her Majesty’s Government are hoping to achieve within the process? What indicatives are they supporting in connection with reform of OSCE? What initiatives have been put forward by others? What initiatives are we taking as the UK within OSCE to try to resolve some of the outstanding so-called frozen conflicts? I cite Moldova/Transnistria, which according to the December ministerial council was a priority, Nagorno-Karabakh and the issues in Georgia.
What is our vision for the scope and role of OSCE? We welcomed Mongolia as a participating state in the past 12 months, but do we as the United Kingdom have a view about which other states might become participating states? What about Afghanistan and Pakistan? I do not expect an answer from my noble friend this afternoon, merely an assurance that issues about expansion are being considered—and not on a purely ad hoc basis.
In discussions about OSCE at Helsinki +40, do Her Majesty’s Government see a role for the Parliamentary Assembly? Do they agree that greater involvement for the Parliamentary Assembly would assist in supporting participating states in raising awareness of OSCE’s work? The Parliamentary Assembly spends considerable time on election monitoring. While in my opinion that is a valuable and important part of its work, I believe that it could have a wider political role. If Governments wanted the work of OSCE to have a higher profile, this could be a way of achieving that.
The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, reminded me this week that at the annual meeting in July he proposed a resolution on Guantanamo Bay, which was adopted and formed part of the 2013 declaration of the Parliamentary Assembly. Since then, the Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights has visited the camp, but strangely enough the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, as a member of a national delegation, has not been able to obtain a copy of the report—the Parliamentary Assembly apparently does not have a copy. Can the Minister tell us how the UK delegation and indeed Parliament are to be informed about such matters? Will he please look into that problem and in due course advise how the information may be obtained?
In its 2012 declaration, the Parliamentary Assembly requested that at the end of every chairmanship in office, the OSCE should submit to the Parliamentary Assembly and its national delegations a concise report of the work of the organisation in time for debate at the winter meeting in Vienna in February. This seemed a fairly modest and reasonable proposal, if only because it was included as the result of an amendment submitted by me. I ask the Minister whether the Ministerial Council expressed a view and whether it is going to happen. What is the United Kingdom view? Lastly, I am grateful to the Minister and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Bach, on behalf of the Front Bench, for tolerating, listening to and having to respond to my monologue. I am sorry there is no one else to add to it.
Lord Bach (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, certainly does not have to apologise to me or, I suspect, the Minister. Indeed, we ought to congratulate him on securing this debate. He is right—it deserves a wider turnout because this is an important subject and I am delighted that he has persisted with the debate. Whether it is a small or large number of speakers, the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, has done the subject justice in his impressive and knowledgeable speech. I am delighted that the Minister is responding, because I understand that he has a deep knowledge of international relations, particularly the sort of organisation we are speaking of today.
The only problem with the noble Lord’s speech is that it does not leave me very much to say, let alone disagree with. The case for Helsinki +40 is good and it is clear-cut, as was the case for OSCE and its predecessors by name some four decades ago. My party has supported OSCE whether in government or in opposition, both as a forum for high-level political dialogue on security issues and as a platform for practical—and that is an important word—work to improve lives and communities. We believe as OSCE does, that the three dimensions of security, namely politico-military, economic and environmental and, thirdly, human, differences can be bridged and trust can be built through co-operation. From the Helsinki Final Act in 1975 to today is not only a long period in history, but it is obviously a time that has seen fundamental changes to Europe. The creation of CSCE served an important role, as I understand it, during the Cold War, and in 1994 it became OSCE. Now, nearly 20 years later, we believe it continues to play a significant role in today’s very different but still very difficult world.
I am delighted the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, mentioned the figures. It is impressive that of the roughly 2,700 staff, 2,100 or more are actually involved in field operations in south-east Europe, eastern Europe, the south Caucasus and central Asia. I would argue that it is this practical, on-the-ground work that is so crucial, whether it be observing elections, which is important in itself; restoring trust among communities post-conflict; or initiatives to support law enforcement and the rule of law, whether minority rights or legislative reform; or dealing with those protracted conflicts that the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, talked about a few minutes ago. All of it helps in building trust and working towards, in the words of the framework document,
“a free, democratic, common and indivisible Euro-Atlantic and Eurasian security community”.
We are a little way from that, I must confess, even in my most optimistic moments. We must not hide our eyes from the obvious tensions and disagreements, even disagreements about the role of the OSCE itself. It is hardly surprising in a body with 57 participating nations, all of which have their self-interest as well as a common interest. Looking at some of the comments made by Foreign Ministers at the Dublin ministerial, one gets a sense of that. Foreign Minister Lavrov complained about three-quarters of the activity concentrating on the human dimension and the emphasis, as he saw it, of all operations and projects in the Balkans and the territories of the former Soviet Union.
However, it is important to listen to the words of our colleague, the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton of Upholland, in her role as High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, who wrote on the same occasion:
“The OSCE should continue to play an important role in Europe’s security architecture based on its comprehensive security concept and the principles and commitments enshrined in the Helsinki Final Act and the Charter of Paris. It should continue making best use of its field operations and autonomous institutions, which provide support to the participating States in putting their commitments into practice. These are valuable assets which no other security Organization possesses … After almost 40 years as an Organization, it would be worth looking at how to further enhance the efficiency of the OSCE, including its budgetary processes”.
We agree. That seems to be the real rationale for Helsinki +40, and we continue to support it.
I have two questions for the Minister. When we were in government, the UK provided up to 10% of observers to all OSCE election observation missions on an ad hoc basis. Is that still happening under the present Government; is their policy still to provide up to 10%? The second question comes back to something that the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, talked about. It is about parliamentarians, and Afghanistan in particular. The Lithuanian rapporteur’s report prepared for the OSCE Parliamentary Association’s annual session in June and July this year for the General Committee on Political Affairs and Security included a section on challenges facing the organisation in the wake of the ISAF withdrawal from Afghanistan next year. What is Her Majesty’s Government’s view of the role that the OSCE, particularly parliamentarians, might play in the next two years in Afghanistan where, as the Committee knows, elections are due in both 2014 and 2015? What role might the OSCE itself play in wider security issues? I would be grateful if the noble Lord could answer, if not today, in due course. I look forward to his reply.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, very much for his insistence on having this debate. Like him, I am very disappointed that we have so few participants in it. The OSCE is an important organisation with an interesting history and which links the countries of the European Union, the United States and Canada to all the countries of the former Soviet Union. As such, it provides an opportunity for dialogue among Members of Parliament and Governments in those various countries across a range of issues, which we value.
We are all old enough to have been in at the beginning. I remember the negotiations in Helsinki in 1972 to 1974, which led to the final act of what became the conference on security and co-operation in Europe. The co-operation baskets which were negotiated were in effect a trade-off between an emphasis on security and arms control, confidence-building measures and the economic co-operation which the Soviet Union, as it then was, very much hoped for, including in particular a degree of technological transfer, and the human rights basket which the West wanted in return.
As a lot of us well remember, that led to the establishment of Helsinki groups in a number of eastern European countries. In the 1980s, when I was the British secretary of the UK-Soviet round table it certainly led to some very interesting conversations, in which our Soviet counterparts recognised that if they wanted to be accepted as a European country there were European standards, as expressed in the Helsinki Final Act, to which they had to pay some attention. That is still there in the background of what has become the post-Cold War OSCE. All the countries which emerged from the Soviet Union are of course members of the OSCE, some more enthusiastic than others.
With my London School of Economics hat on, the last time I was involved in the OSCE was in helping to train Kazakh officials in 2008-09 to become part of the presidency of the OSCE. I must say that they started off with slightly overambitious thoughts about how important the OSCE would be as an international organisation. However, we all recognise that it remains a useful organisation, although a very difficult one to work within, because it operates by consensus. That means that we move at the pace of the slowest or most awkward partner, and I think we all understand who the most awkward partner can very often be.
The agenda contains different emphases, including economic co-operation, which also now includes environmental and energy co-operation. These are not easy subjects when we are dealing with one of the world’s largest oil and gas exporters as a member of the OSCE. The whole question of conventional arms reduction across the area covered, which has proved more and more difficult, includes confidence-building measures, in which we are supposed to observe each other’s manoeuvres and inform each other in advance of major troop movements. Then of course there is the human rights dimension, with the OSCE special representative for the media, and that extremely valuable agency of the OSCE, the Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights.
We value those and we value the field missions that the OSCE has had and continues to have in a number of countries. We may regret that the office in Georgia— which I once visited—was closed in 2008, and that the Belarusians insisted on the office in Minsk being closed in 2011. We also regret that the conflicts with which the OSCE is institutionally engaged in Transnistria, Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia and South Ossetia are stuck and so little progress has been made. The Minsk Group continues to meet over Nagorno-Karabakh in particular. In some ways it is the most potentially dangerous of these three conflicts, with the possibility of active conflict breaking out again. Not enough progress is being made.
We continue to support the OSCE, and it is an organisation in which a certain amount of plain speaking can continue. I very much hope that the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, also feels that the Parliamentary Assembly is an organisation in which a good deal of plain speaking can take place. In that organisation we involve parliamentarians from a number of countries that have not had very much contact with European perceptions of how democratic political systems should operate. That in itself, although no doubt sometimes rather painful and occasionally rather unproductive, is nevertheless a useful activity. As I was explaining to a group of students some time ago, a great deal of diplomacy does not lead to a definite result. Nevertheless, in many ways the conversations are productive and much of what the OSCE does outside its extremely valuable election monitoring is of that character rather than, unfortunately, producing the results that we would like to see.
The noble Lord asked a number of questions about the attitude of the British Government towards further enlargement, in particular with regard to Afghanistan. I have to admit that I am not briefed on that and I shall have to write to the noble Lord. It is an interesting question. After all, this is an organisation that has the word “Europe” in its name; it is the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe. The great expansion was to bring in the countries of the south Caucuses and central Asia when the Soviet Union broke up, which has been very valuable. Mongolia has come in on top of that. As the new countries of central Asia have developed—some of them rather more democratic than others, or perhaps I should say some rather less democratic than others—we have been able to engage at more levels than we would otherwise have been able to. That is not an easy thing to do but we have the standing to be able to do so. The OSCE continues to do that and in many ways it is a worthwhile activity to have Kazakhstan as chair; it did help to bring the Kazakh Government and a number of officials and parliamentarians into a wider view of their place in the world.
The noble Lord asked what role we have in mind for the Parliamentary Assembly. All international parliamentary assemblies are unavoidably talking shops but they help to exchange a large number of messages. I still treasure my memory of a bilateral meeting when a delegation from the British Parliament went to Moscow and we had a stand-up row with the foreign affairs committee of the Russian Parliament. I certainly felt that we were exchanging fairly vigorous messages on both sides on that occasion. All of these exchanges help, at the margin, to shift attitudes. The work that members of the Parliamentary Assembly at the OSCE and the Council of Europe do on election monitoring is extremely valuable and we support its continuation.
The noble Lord asked about the Guantanamo Bay visit and what had happened to the reports on that. Let me discover the answer and write to him. Similarly, on the question of what happened to the proposal that there should be a report from the chair at the end of the chairmanship, which sounds like a constructive proposal, I will investigate. I do not know the proportion of personnel in these various things that is provided by the British Government. I will check and perhaps write collectively to all others who have participated in this debate, so to speak.
The potential role in Afghanistan is an interesting question, which perhaps we all need to explore further as Afghanistan comes out from under the ISAF influence.
I hope that has answered many of the questions. Of course, Russia is the most important partner that we have within the OSCE, but the central Asian countries and the countries between Russia and the European Union remain of considerable importance. At present, we are struggling with the issue of whether Ukraine will sign an association agreement with the European Union at Vilnius at the end of this month. The Russian Government are extremely unhappy with the proposal that Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova should sign an association agreement with the European Union. That is very high on our current foreign policy agenda. We are struggling with the enormous problem of how to relate to Belarus, a country where an authoritarian regime has survived on playing off Russia and its western neighbours and hoping to be subsidised by both sides. We struggle to cope with the problems of the south Caucasus and to contribute to development there. We have an active interest in Azerbaijan, which, as we all know, is not one of the world’s most open or democratic countries. Indeed, the IHR concluded that the recent elections were not entirely fair, but we have substantial economic interests in that country. We also have interests in Georgia. I visited Georgia and Armenia just before the summer and got a very good impression of the semi-democratic dimensions in both countries. In Tbilisi I had lunch with opposition and government MPs and they had an extremely vigorous argument in front of me, which I thought was a good sign of how they are moving towards development. I could cover the other central Asian countries but I think we all understand the many difficulties there.
I end by saying that Her Majesty’s Government continue to value the role of the OSCE. We accept that it will continue to be limited because it is a consensus-based organisation. We recognise that the Parliamentary Assembly plays a valuable role in that and that the agencies, in particular the ODIHR, play a very valuable role. We regret that the security and conflict prevention dimension is stuck in so many ways and we wish to reinsert progress into the frozen conflicts which are so much part of the problem, but we continue to be committed. We are sorry that we have not raised more interest for this debate. We are extremely grateful for those Members of the British Parliament who participate in the Parliamentary Assembly and we look forward to further reports from them and further questions and calls for debates to keep us all interested.
Commencement Orders
Lord Norton of Louth
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have any plans to reform the use of commencement orders.
Lord Norton of Louth (Con)
My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to raise this Question and I am delighted that my noble friends Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville and Lord Cormack are contributing.
Commencement orders may seem a dry and obscure subject—one little understood by the public or indeed by Members. When I mentioned to a colleague that I had this Question for Short Debate, I had to explain what commencement orders were. However, they are extremely important, and the fact that they are little understood is a major problem, bearing on public confidence in the political system. Commencement orders are essentially what stand between what Parliament has said can be the law and what is the law.
Unless an Act states otherwise, it takes effect upon Royal Assent. However, it is common to provide for provisions to take effect on dates stipulated by Ministers. Were provisions of Acts of Parliament brought into effect as a matter of course relatively soon after Royal Assent, allowing time for whatever administrative arrangements needed to be made, there would not be a problem. However, that is not what happens. There is a plethora of legislative provisions—agreed by Parliament and embodied in Acts of Parliament—which have never been brought into effect. These provisions are substantial, both qualitatively and quantitatively. The Easter Act 1928 is frequently offered as an example of an Act that was never brought into force. However, there are modern-day equivalents. The statute book is littered with substantial parts of Acts which have never been given effect.
Some noble Lords have tabled Questions to the Government to find out how extensive this practice is of not bringing legislation into force. The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, in June 2010, asked which sections of, or schedules to, Acts passed since 1997 had not been commenced. On my count, the list encompassed no fewer than 147 Acts of Parliament that had sections or schedules that had never been commenced—147 Acts since 1997. They include one Act that is unimplemented in its entirety. The Acts were not minor pieces of legislation, with just one section or schedule unimplemented, although there were a number of those. They included major pieces of legislation with several sections or schedules unimplemented. One Act, for example, had, on my count, 45 sections and seven schedules unimplemented wholly or in part.
For Parliament to pass legislation that is not then given effect is an inefficient use of Parliament’s time—indeed, a waste of time. We spend time discussing the merits of provisions that we expect to become law but which then simply lay on the face of the Act without being brought into effect. Perhaps more importantly, it confuses the public. People think that when Parliament passes an Act the Act is then law and takes effect. They do not realise that its provisions may not take effect until an order is made to bring them into effect and that Ministers may not actually make such orders.
Some provisions are not commenced until the necessary administrative work is completed. I understand that. I know that there are now common commencement dates and departments are expected to comply with those. However, the Government may need to consider how they explain to those affected by a measure the reasons for any delay in giving effect to their provisions.
However, my principal concern is with legislative provisions never given effect at all. I should be interested to hear from my noble friend the justification for government not giving effect to that which Parliament has passed and how he would explain that to the public.
I appreciate that the responsibility for the current situation rests as much with Parliament as with government. The two Houses approve Bills that give power to Ministers to make orders to bring particular provisions into effect. We discuss the substantive provisions of Bills, but rarely give much attention, if any at all, to the supplementary provisions. We see the headings under the supplementary provisions—commencement, transitional provision, extent and Short Title—and tend to see them as standard provisions requiring little consideration. By that stage, Members tend to think that their work is done.
There is a case for Parliament to be more vigilant in future in checking such provisions and perhaps limiting their scope. Why allow Ministers an open-ended power to bring provisions of an Act into effect? Why not be more prescriptive or set a time period within which such orders may be made? My comments are addressed as much to colleagues in the House as they are to the Government. I wanted to get them on the record as a basis for pursuing the issue.
This is not the first time that I have addressed the issue. I chaired the Commission to Strengthen Parliament, which was set up by William Hague as Leader of the Opposition in 1999 and reported in 2000. My noble friend Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville was a member of the commission. We included commencement orders in our remit, and in our section on legislative scrutiny we concluded:
“Finally, we wish to see one particular change to existing practice. The commencement clauses normally give power for the Secretary of State to bring provisions in on dates set by the minister. Parliament could, of course, ensure that commencement clauses do not provide excessive latitude. We think there is a case for a more systematic constraint. In the Parliamentary Government Bill that he introduced in 1999, Lord Cranborne included a clause to provide that any provision of an enactment which is not commenced within five years of the passing of the Act shall cease to have effect. We find the argument for such a provision persuasive. We therefore recommend that there be a statutory provision that any sections of an Act which are not brought into effect within five years of Royal Assent shall cease to have effect”.
In other words, provisions of Acts that have not been brought into effect will be repealed. That will tidy up, and indeed shorten, the statute book. Introducing such a provision would also have a salutary effect on Ministers.
William Hague said that the report of the commission would be a road map for a future Conservative Government. Perhaps my noble friend will confirm that the Government have not lost their sense of direction and will now address the issue. In particular, it will be helpful if my noble friend will put on the record the Government’s position on commencement orders and what they will be doing to ensure that in future the statute book is not littered with provisions that occupy the confusing position of being law but not law.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville (Con)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth in speaking to his admirable choice of subject for this short debate and to congratulate him on the speech with which he introduced it.
He has described our mutual participation in the Commission to Strengthen Parliament. It was set up in 1999 by the then Leader of the Conservative Party, my right honourable friend the present Foreign Secretary. It was chaired with characteristic scholarship by my noble friend, who was already in the Lords by that time. It contained three other former Conservative MPs, of whom two were by then Members of your Lordships’ House, the third being Matthew Parris, as well as a distinguished woman Oxford academic to counterbalance my noble friend, and finally me, as the only sitting MP.
By a remarkable coincidence, which occurred while I was sorting out books at home over the past fortnight, I came across our final report, which I had not seen for years—my library policy is one of accumulation rather than specific acquisition or ambition. I immediately rescued it from any potential cull, particularly one made by my wife. By a further remarkable coincidence, I received a letter from my noble friend drawing my attention to this debate and reminding me that our report had included the recommendation which underlies this debate and which he has just quoted. I have to confess that I had forgotten the recommendation. Since this debate may become a modest quarry for future students of the subject, I remark that that recommendation appears on page 43 of our report. It is the last major paragraph in a section headed, “Legislative Scrutiny”, and on page 63 it is the final item in a list of seven recommendations entitled “Legislative Scrutiny: Primary Legislation”. Its provenance was in the text of a Bill introduced also in 1999 by Viscount Cranborne, from whom we had taken oral evidence. His Bill was entitled Parliamentary Government.
On rereading our report this week, I was agreeably surprised by its universal good sense and also by how many of the issues that we raised have been taken up since. Nor am I in any way receding from the particular recommendation that we are debating. Its text runs, as my noble friend has demonstrated, to less than 150 words, so there is no great substance to disembowel, and it possesses a logic that invites agreement without provoking disagreement. The five years that we allocated as the fallow period during which the sections of an Act could survive untrammelled following Royal Assent without commencement orders have the additional virtue of being at a sufficient distance in time from Royal Assent for everyone to have forgotten who the Minister was who had fruitlessly introduced these now lapsed and neglected propositions and invited parliamentarians to use parliamentary time to dissect them. Moreover, those five years were a good test of any continuing relevance or any circumstance that made the sections less relevant after all. In a world where parliamentarians and commentators regret the sheer amount of legislation passed, their removal from availability as law may be a salutary prophylactic.
Of course, it is not as easy as that. There is a school of thought that does not want to throw anything out of Mother Hubbard’s cupboard, but parliamentarians have never hesitated to set limits for local authorities to monitor the duration of planning permissions being granted before the permission lapses, and these constraints are a notable stimulus to timely action. Overall, there would be a bonus in parliamentary time saved and intelligent scrutiny and courage.
As ever, I have been helped and my horizons extended by the excellent briefing provided by our Library. In this instance I particularly enjoyed the guidance for co-ordinators and policymakers and appreciated the statistics on Acts passed, especially when reinforced by subjects. The statistics show the volume of Acts passed in given calendar years and the subject breakdown in sessional years, which makes comparison less than totally accurate, but over a period of 30 years that prevents false or distorted impressions. My own computation was that over the period from 1983 to 2012 almost exactly 20% have been devoted to constitutional Acts and those embracing criminal justice.
Finally, there is a moral to be derived from the coincidence of the debates today in which my noble friend Lord Cormack is taking part. Here in the Moses Room, 50 of us have been given 60 minutes on a narrow but important issue, while elsewhere 30 Peers are going to be debating the monumental Magna Carta over 90 minutes and Back-Benchers will have 60% of the time that is allocated to us here to debate that massive subject. Of course it concentrates the mind and of course there is no way to adjust the imbalance but it does cast a searchlight on securing productive returns from the parliamentary time that we invest.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, it is both a pleasure and an honour to follow my two noble friends. My noble friend Lord Norton of Louth has performed many signal services to our parliamentary democracy in this country and his introducing this subject today with such concise and crisp logic was but another example of the services that he has rendered. Of course, my noble friend Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville has also been a marvellous public servant who has done so much to enhance the reputation of Parliament, which is more than can be said for many Ministers over the time that he served.
I was provoked into taking part in this debate by my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth and I was delighted to respond to that provocation. We devote an enormous amount of time in the two Houses to debating legislation. Frequently, the cry goes up from your Lordships’ House that ill digested, ill considered legislation has been placed before us, whole chunks of which have never been debated, or have been debated only very briefly, in the House of Commons. That is bad enough.
Another thing that we complain about, as I did on many occasions in another place, is the number of Henry VIII clauses, as they are called, which give almost untrammelled powers to Ministers to do things within the general purview and ambit of the Act. I deplore both those things. Of course, when we are then brought up sharp by the noble Lord, Lord Norton, as we were by the commission that he chaired all those years ago, and have it pointed out to us that many of the Acts over which we slave and to which we devote many parliamentary hours, either never come into force at all or whole chunks of them never come into force, we face what is no less than a parliamentary scandal. It is incumbent on us to address this subject at last with some vigorous action.
I entirely endorse the clinching recommendation based on the Marquess of Salisbury’s Private Member’s Bill, but I would go further than that and make one or two suggestions to your Lordships this afternoon. No Bill or Act should be introduced or passed by Parliament unless it is the specific and stated intention of the Government of the day to bring it into force within the lifetime of the Parliament in which it is passed. If any law passed by Parliament has not been brought into force by the end of that Parliament, it should disappear from the statute books. That is a sharpening- up of what I would call the Salisbury/Norton recommendation and something that the Government should take exceptionally seriously.
I am also a great believer in the efficacy of Joint Committees of both Houses and I think that there should be a Joint Committee of both Houses on commencement orders. We talk often about the necessity for pre-legislative scrutiny; we talk about the desirability of post-legislative scrutiny; but we have not, as far as I remember, talked in any detail on the Floor of either Chamber in the 43 years that I have been here about commencement orders. If we had a Joint Committee of both Houses, which had as its remit the constant examination of this subject, surely it could only sharpen the minds of Ministers and make them consider: is this law truly necessary?
We pass far too many laws in this country. The extent to which the statute books have been increased during the time I have been a Member of one House or another is, frankly, horrifying. We should be concentrating our minds on trying to improve the quality of legislation, and the first question before introducing any Bill in either House should be: is this necessary and will it improve things? If the answer to both those questions is in the affirmative, it is indeed incumbent on those who have the ultimate control to ensure that the law in question comes into force.
At the root of all this is the whole question of the balance between the legislature and the Executive. I am often minded to quote Dunning’s famous Motion in 1780 that,
“the power of the Crown has increased, is increasing and ought to be diminished”,
and apply it to the present moment—whether it is a Government of my party, a coalition Government or a Government of the noble Baroness’s party—and say that the power of the Executive has increased, is increasing and ought to be diminished. One way we could diminish that is to ensure that ministerial minds are more concentrated on the need for the legislation that they place before us.
When he was talking about the report produced by the commission of which he was such a distinguished chairman, my noble friend Lord Norton said that our right honourable friend William Hague, who was then the leader of the party, defined it as being a road map. Being Foreign Secretary, Mr Hague knows all about maps now, and I hope that the present leadership of the Government will recognise that this was indeed a road map and that it is about time that it was looked at again and that its suggestions or refinements, such as I have put before your Lordships this afternoon, are thought about seriously and, much more importantly, implemented.
Lord Skelmersdale (Con)
My Lords, there is very rarely an opportunity in a debate such as this for someone to leap into the gap but I am afraid that I am going to sin this afternoon.
I was absolutely horrified by the figures given by my noble friend Lord Norton of 147 Bills since 1977 not being enacted in full and one not implemented at all, and I wondered if there were some very good reasons for this. The first that occurred to me was that Bills that are not fully enacted or commenced straightaway might well suffer from a change of government, with the new Government not wanting a particular section to become law. The other thing that occurs to me is that it may well be a parliamentary accident that a Private Member’s Bill is not enacted at all or is enacted only in part.
Some 20 years ago, as Under-Secretary of State in the Department of the Environment, I had responsibility for defending at Question Time the fact that a particular section of the Control of Pollution Act 1974 had not been brought into effect. I have not looked up what I said on that occasion nor to what extent I was criticised by Members of your Lordships’ House, but subsequent to that I became involved in the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, on which I served for nine years. That also prompted me to look at this particular subject and at statutory instruments in general, not least the terms in which they were couched.
I had always understood that the right body to look at Acts of Parliament and the current state of the statute book was the Law Society, which does such an amazing job at doing just that. The trouble with my noble friend Lord Norton’s proposal is that it would have to be done within departments. Civil servants are naturally cautious about changing what they or their colleagues have drafted with such immaculate care so I do not think that this is a job for civil servants, even in the Cabinet Office. I would leave it to the Law Society with the proviso that the Government then act thereupon.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)
My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, for this interesting short debate about the statute book, which is indeed littered with legislation that has never been commenced. I was delighted to learn—for the first time, to my shame—of the important commission and the forthcoming report.
I think that this commission was set up by the Conservative Party but this is very much a non-political point and I would probably sign up to everything in the report—I do not know but I will certainly take a closer look now. As has been noted, Governments of all persuasions are equally culpable. It is an issue that I have thought about in the past in relation to our citizens’ trust and the relationship that we have with them because in Parliament we quite rightly spend a lot of time debating legislation and sometimes we incite the interest and concern of the public. The public know about these things going through Parliament and, understandably, they automatically assume that the Acts will be implemented but, as has been pointed out, far too many of them are not. Were the public to know this, they would be deeply concerned. This is one of the many things that we have to do in order to restore confidence with the public.
Interesting things have been said about the time that we as parliamentarians take in scrutinising legislation and, as was pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, there is a contrast between what we are doing here today—having a very leisurely, enjoyable debate—and what is happening in the Chamber, and we really have to do something about that. Interestingly, someone told me that they overheard a colleague in the other place talking about a part of a piece of legislation that had not been implemented. It was said that this particular section of the legislation was introduced via an amendment in your Lordships’ House and the person down the other end of the Corridor was heard to say, “Well, it doesn’t really matter because they won’t implement it anyway”. That is an interesting view of what can happen and we really must do something about it.
The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, suggested that there should be a Joint Committee of both Houses to look at the issue, which is potentially interesting, but I happen to think that there are two ways forward: first, if every piece of legislation, especially every constitutional piece of legislation, was subject to proper pre-legislative scrutiny, that should obviate the need for that sort of committee; secondly, noble Lords may recall that the Leader’s Committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, who is not in his place today, recommended that there should be a committee on standards in legislation. If that sort of committee were to come into force, it could deal with some of these issues.
As I said, I probably would sign up to many of the recommendations of the report that has been mentioned and I think I would personally favour the recommendation made by the noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne. I would be interested to hear what the Minister has to say about that today. But I would like to take this slightly further. The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, mentioned statutory instruments and spoke of his experience on what used to be called the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. Of course, I well understand that not every statutory instrument deals with enactment or commencement orders but, having looked at the tables that were helpfully produced by the Library, they clearly demonstrate not only that there are far too many SIs but that they have become much more complex over the years. For example, in 1975 there were 1,340 SIs, which amounted to only 8,379 pages, whereas in 2009 there were slightly more SIs—1,420—but there were 11,414 pages. They have become a lot more complex and Governments of all persuasions these days are relying far too much on statutory instruments as a consequence of framework legislation.
I go back to the need that is clearly demonstrated so often for pre-legislative scrutiny and well drafted legislation that knows what it is doing and why it is there. There is much to be done in improving our system of government and the laws that come before us. We also have a duty as parliamentarians to ensure that the structures and systems that we follow are more effective in ensuring that we really can deliver what citizens think we are delivering and, therefore, regain their trust.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)
My Lords, first, I congratulate my noble friend on securing this debate. I am particularly conscious of his long-standing interest in this issue and his experience in matters of constitutional law and practice. I am aware of the work he undertook for the commission for the Conservative Party. If I may say so, I was conscious that, should we achieve government, we should adhere to many aspects of that piece of work.
I also remark on the long and formidable experience of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, and my noble friends Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, Lord Cormack and Lord Skelmersdale. It is a daunting prospect to reply when your Lordships have the experience that you all have, but I am glad your Lordships were all, if I may use the word, provoked to speak in this debate. I hope that it is helpful to set out the Government’s current policy and practice on the use of commencement orders.
The Government undoubtedly have responsibility for the maintenance of the statute book. I agree with noble Lords that it is not in principle desirable for there to be parts of enacted legislation on the statute book which remain uncommenced for long periods. In briefing myself on the debate, I became aware of the Easter Act—I must say that I was not before—which is of very long standing. I agree with the noble Baroness that that would undoubtedly cause confusion, indeed, probably bewilderment, among the public if they were to hear about that.
Again from study, I am conscious of the amount of legislation. I should say that in a different life, I have been a strong supporter of less legislation rather than more, and of higher quality legislation. My noble friend Lord Cormack was rightly strong on that point. Given the amount of legislation we have, actually a very small proportion of it is not brought into force within, at most, two to three years of it being passed, although I in no way downgrade the point made by my noble friend Lord Norton.
It has been a long-standing practice of all Governments to treat commencement of legislation on a case-by-case basis. Noble Lords will have seen a wide range of provisions relating to the commencement of legislation in their scrutiny of Bills. That reflects the fact that it is usually necessary to provide a certain amount of notice to those affected by the legislation before it takes effect and that the notice period required will depend on the nature and complexity of the Act concerned. I understand my noble friend Lord Cormack’s proposal about the end of a Parliament. The problem would be that in the last part of the Parliament, it would be particularly difficult to transact any sort of legislative programme.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
That might bear out some of my earlier comments, but I believe that the truth is that all Governments seek to have legislation that is in the public interest, so there is a problem with my noble friend’s proposal, albeit that it is well meaning.
Sometimes, where legislation is relatively limited in effect or otherwise straightforward, it is possible for that notice period to be stated in the Act. A two-month period is often regarded as the minimum, but sometimes it may be appropriate for Acts to take effect immediately. Commencement orders are used to provide the Government with a degree of flexibility in the timing of implementation; I think that my noble friend Lord Norton agreed with that. That may be necessary to allow time for the establishment of new organisations, for industry to adjust to any new regulatory requirements or for consultation on the detail of implementation, which is often undertaken via secondary legislation—I am conscious of what my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale said about statutory instruments. Sometimes, a commencement order may be required to commence different parts of an Act on different days or for the Act to apply first in specific areas or to specific people or situations. It is also sensible for Ministers to retain the ability to ensure that everyone is fully prepared for implementation before legislation is brought into force.
It would perhaps be unduly restrictive or possibly counterproductive for Ministers to be held to an arbitrary time period fixed in the original legislation. This would not allow Ministers to take into account any changes in circumstance which might quite reasonably delay implementation. Conversely, it would not be wise to risk legislation being lost on account of a failure to agree the details of implementation by a specified time period. This is the potential consequence of certain sorts of sunset provision.
I accept entirely that in the vast majority of cases one should expect legislation to be fully brought into force within a year or two of Royal Assent. However, there may be exceptional circumstances in which it may not be possible to make progress within that timescale, but it is none the less desirable to keep open the possibility of implementation at a future date. However, that is not to say that sunset clauses should never be used; on the contrary, they may well be justified, but perhaps act to provide a degree of certainty to businesses that new regulations will not be introduced once a period of time has expired, or as a legislative backstop to be used if required.
I was particularly struck by the Electronic Communications Act 2000, which contained a statutory regulatory scheme that would be brought in if self-regulation by industry failed. The statutory scheme was subject to a five-year sunset clause if it was not needed. In the event, self-regulation worked and the provisions were accordingly repealed. I think that is a good example of what all of your Lordships are seeking. My point is that the desirability or otherwise of a sunset clause of this nature should be considered on its merits and on a case-by-case basis. In seeking to answer directly the question posed by my noble friend, I hope I will not shock your Lordships by saying that the Government do not have precise plans to reform the use of commencement orders. But if my noble friend is making the case that very careful consideration should be given to the use of commencement orders and to sunset clauses, I entirely agree and that is what the Government seek to do. I think it is, in good faith, what all Governments should seek and have sought to do.
I now turn to some of the additional ways in which the concerns expressed by your Lordships could be addressed. First, the Government believe that post-legislative scrutiny, which my noble friend Lord Cormack referred to, has a very important part to play in ensuring that the statute book is kept under review and up to date. For the benefit of Parliament and others, the Government publish a post-legislative assessment of every Act between three and five years after enactment. These assessments include an explanation for any provisions that have not been commenced. Indeed, your Lordships are already contributing to this scrutiny process. In the previous Session, the Select Committee on Adoption Legislation examined previous and forthcoming legislation on this subject. There are currently two committees of your Lordships’ House undertaking post-legislative scrutiny in respect of the Mental Capacity Act 2005 and the Inquiries Act 2005. Departmental Select Committees in the other place carry out similar inquiries from time to time, particularly in respect of Acts that have not been implemented fully or satisfactorily, so I believe that this scrutiny is entirely welcome.
Secondly, there is the work of the Law Commission—I am not sure whether my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale meant the Law Commission rather than the Law Society.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
The work of the Law Commission is extremely valuable. It undertakes periodic reviews of particular areas of legislation and does the detailed preparatory work on what we know as Statute Law (Repeals) Bills. These are valuable, if somewhat unsung, exercises which help to tidy up the statute book, by repealing unnecessary and uncommenced legislation. Noble Lords may recall one such Act, the Statute Law (Repeals) Act 2013, which received Royal Assent recently.
I hope, but I am not sure, that all noble Lords are aware of the good law project that is currently being led by the Cabinet Office, in particular by the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel. It is designed to improve the quality of legislation by identifying ways to further improve its drafting and reduce complexity. I entirely agree with the noble Baroness: I have looked at some legislation and found it extremely difficult to understand. To reduce that complexity and make the law more accessible must be a good principle to hold. Among other things, the project is also considering how the law in both printed and digital form can be made more easily understood; for example, it may be possible to examine how information about whether provisions are in force is presented to online users of legislation. Although I am very conscious that many do not use online facilities, I think it is increasingly the case that many do. We should try to facilitate that.
I should have said at the outset that all suggestions from your Lordships are welcome in this project. This is a project of good will and it is in good faith that many of the points that your Lordships made today are understood. We need to find a resolution to how we can best ensure the quality to which my noble friend Lord Cormack referred. The quality of the statute book is important to us all, because we are its creators. If we are not happy with our work, we have not done particularly good work.
This has been an illuminating debate and briefing, and seeking to answer it has certainly been illuminating for me. I believe that your Lordships and my noble friend are right to hold the Government to account to maintain the statute book properly and uphold good legislative practice. I have mentioned post-legislative scrutiny, and I believe that pre-legislative scrutiny is a desirable thing as well. I expect that it is the case that all Governments have had moments—I freely admit it—when pre-legislative scrutiny would have been extremely desirable. I suspect that it is a note of caution to all Governments that pre-legislative scrutiny is a sound thing to do.
I have taken on all the comments made by your Lordships. I freely admit that it is daunting to be up before your Lordships’ great experience, but my role is to pass on the comments that have been made today. I will make sure that the good law project officials have a copy of Hansard, so that all the points that have been made can be reinforced. They are all good points, and they are all soundly based. I am grateful to all of your Lordships.
Sudan and the Republic of South Sudan
(11 years ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Cox
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the situation in Sudan, and the implications for citizens of the Republic of South Sudan.
Baroness Cox (CB)
My Lords, I am very grateful to every noble Lord contributing to the debate as the grave situation in Sudan and South Sudan is largely off the radar screen of the media and a forgotten crisis.
The republic of Sudan is still in the grip of President al-Bashir, who continues to perpetrate crimes for which he was indicted by the International Criminal Court. He has declared his intention to turn Sudan into a “unified, Arabic, Islamic nation” and is putting it into practice with an attempted ethnic and religious cleansing of the predominantly African peoples in Southern Kordofan and Blue Nile state.
I have visited these states and seen the horrendous suffering inflicted by ruthless aerial bombardment and attacks by long-range missiles on civilians and targets such as schools, clinics and markets. Half a million civilians are hiding in caves with deadly snakes, in river banks or under trees. A quarter of a million have fled into exile in overcrowded camps in South Sudan or Ethiopia. With constant aerial bombardment, people cannot plant or harvest crops and are scavenging for roots and leaves—anything to quell the pangs of hunger. Many hundreds have died of starvation or malnutrition-related illnesses.
We visited a village in Blue Nile state where 450 people had already died of starvation. The remnant had fled their homes because they had been bombed recently. We saw the fresh bomb craters. We followed the sound of voices and found survivors hiding under the trees.
My small NGO, Humanitarian Aid Relief Trust, works with courageous partners who risk their lives to take life-saving aid to victims of oppression trapped behind closed borders. We managed to raise funds for food aid in Blue Nile and the money reached these people, enabling them to survive. Poignantly grateful, they said that they now had food and would not have to flee into exile to refugee camps in South Sudan. They said:
“We prefer to stay in our own land, even if we die from bombs. Now we have food, we don't have to flee from our own homes”.
The people in these states are in desperate need of food and medical aid. SPLM-N has agreed to allow access to international aid organisations, but the regime in Khartoum continues to deny this. What more can Her Majesty’s Government do to put pressure on Khartoum to stop this genocide and allow access for life-saving food and medical supplies? How much longer will the international community allow Khartoum to continue its brutal policies with impunity?
In Khartoum itself, the Government have been ruthlessly suppressing legitimate protest and freedom of speech. Journalists have been arrested and reputable NGOs have been expelled. Therefore, brutality has gone largely unreported. More than 200 protesters were killed by security forces and, in some cases, relatives were forced to sign forged death certificates reporting that their relatives had died from natural causes instead of live munitions.
Turning briefly to the problems of Abyei, earlier this year the Ngok Dinka paramount chief was murdered by Khartoum's forces while travelling with UN officials—again with impunity. Having given up on the referendum promised by the African Union, the Ngok Dinka conducted their own referendum in spite of intimidation and boycott by the Khartoum Government, which attempted to bomb bridges to prevent people from returning home to vote. Despite these attempts to sabotage the referendum, it took place with an overwhelming mandate for unification with South Sudan.
The republic of South Sudan, just two years after achieving independence, faces many inevitable problems. As President Salva Kiir said at the time of the birth of a new nation, his people were not rebuilding: there had been nothing left to rebuild. Many problems need to be addressed urgently, including provision of essential services such as immunisation—a critical issue reflected in the return of polio, which had been virtually eradicated.
Of course, there have been serious and well reported problems including corruption and inefficiency. The radical changes in government were undertaken to address some of these issues. However, the situation is clearly not helped by the aggressive and subversive policies of the Government in Khartoum, including exacerbation of intertribal conflicts, especially in Jonglei region. There is evidence that Iran-made, Sudan-origin weapons and ammunition have been made available to David Yau Yau's and other insurgent forces.
Now, there are very disturbing reports of a massive Sudanese military build-up with sophisticated equipment, including strike aircraft, helicopter gunships, tanks and heavy artillery, in the southern parts of Sudan, particularly in the El Obeid complex and along the border with South Sudan, leading to fears that this is preparation for a new, large-scale dry season offensive that might escalate into a major clash with South Sudan over Abyei.
The Government of Sudan’s continuing aerial bombardment of their own people has forced a quarter of a million to flee into refugee camps in South Sudan and many thousands to flee from Abyei, where the local Ngok Dinka have been subjected to killings, torture and loss of homes and property. Thousands of those poured into Bahr el Ghazal, where they faced hunger and homelessness. Many died.
The suffering inflicted on the innocent civilians in these lands has been allowed to continue for far too long. Again and again, I and many others have urged Her Majesty’s Government to initiate action to end the impunity with which al-Bashir and his Government continue to kill their own people. Again and again, we receive the same answer: “We must continue to talk to Khartoum”. But Khartoum continues to kill while it talks, and has been doing so for more than 20 years. Alternatively, we are told that it is for the UN to act, in the knowledge that it will be highly improbable to attain consensus to do anything effective. This is not good enough. The UK has a special responsibility as one of the three nations mandated to support the implementation of the comprehensive peace agreement.
Therefore, I ask the Minister—again—if Her Majesty’s Government will consider the imposition of targeted sanctions on the Government of Sudan, such as denial of visas, which would at least end the culture of impunity. People in Sudan and South Sudan frequently say to me: “The British Government intervened in Libya, where the suffering was nowhere on the same scale as here. Why do they not intervene to help us? Is it because we are black and African?”. They fear we are being racist. Can the Minister advise me on how to answer my Sudanese friends?
I hope that the Minister is not going to imply moral equivalence between the Governments of Sudan and South Sudan. We all recognise the widely reported fallibilities of the leaders of South Sudan. But the Government of South Sudan do not attack and kill their own people, whereas the Government of Sudan continue to engage in genocidal warfare against their own people in Darfur and the southern states.
I conclude with two requests, reflecting the passionate wishes of the citizens of Sudan and South Sudan. First, local people are pleading for the African Union or UN to send fact-finding missions to investigate and report on the situation in the Nuba Mountains and Blue Nile, and to Khartoum to investigate human rights abuses there.
Secondly, will Her Majesty’s Government engage constructively with democratic opposition parties in Sudan? During the Cold War, western nations helped opposition groups behind the Iron Curtain, both to resist totalitarian oppression and to prepare for the day when freedom and democracy would come. There are respected opposition parties in Sudan that are working to promote human rights and develop the essentials of civil society. Will Her Majesty’s Government consider some support for democratic initiatives; for example, those promoted by the opposition movement led by Yasir Arman and Malik Agar, who have demonstrated genuine democratic political leadership? Malik Agar was the democratically elected Governor of Blue Nile State before he was ruthlessly deposed by al-Bashir. Any analysis of the writings and policies of these opposition leaders demonstrates their genuine commitment to democratic reform.
I hope that the peoples of Sudan and South Sudan who will read this debate will be reassured that, at last, Her Majesty’s Government will take a lead in calling the Government of Sudan to account and in promoting initiatives to bring justice and genuine peace to all the citizens of these two nations, who currently see the United Kingdom apparently condoning oppression instead of fulfilling our historic and contemporary obligation to call a halt to aggression, bring perpetrators to account and promote justice for all the peoples of Sudan and South Sudan.
Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead (Lab)
My Lords, first, I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, for her commitment and dedication to the people of Sudan and South Sudan, for initiating this debate and for her excellent speech, which covered all the ground that I think we need to hear.
Ten years ago, few of us imagined we would still be discussing the suffering of the people of Sudan. Yet the misery of Darfur has once again intensified, Khartoum’s campaign of aerial bombardment and systematic ethnic cleansing has spread to Blue Nile and South Kordofan, and after last week’s referendum it is clear that the permanent residents of Abyei wish to be free of a regime that is hostile to their very existence.
Despite all that, the international community has chosen to focus on the low-level conflict that rumbles on between Sudan and South Sudan. That has always been the intention of the Sudanese Government. They know that the world lacks the knowledge and the vigilance needed to see what Bashir is up to in Sudan. There is now no UN special representative after the departure of Robin Gwynn, and the capacity of the FCO’s Sudan unit has been diminished by the exit of staff who have not been replaced. Also, as the excellent Rosalind Marsden departs from her EU role, her replacement, Alexander Rondos, is expected to take on responsibility for the whole of the Horn of Africa. The message that all that conveys to those in power in Khartoum is that the world community is unable or unwilling to focus on Sudan while Syria and Somalia preoccupy security interest. The need for concerted international action to deal with the crisis continues, but international engagement shrinks.
For years, there have been calls for Khartoum to give unhindered humanitarian access to the starving and displaced people sheltering from the Sudanese bombing raids in Blue Nile and South Kordofan. Khartoum knows that it can carry on killing its own citizens with impunity because there is absolutely no response other than media statements and ministerial condemnation. For years, we have expressed concern about Khartoum’s brutal repression of free speech, the disappearance and torture of intellectuals and the sexual abuse of thousands of young women guilty of no greater sin than wanting to go to school or to college.
Symptomatic of the failure to grasp the reality on the ground has been the dogged attempt to impose the Doha peace agreement on Darfur. Officials continue to negotiate debt relief with the very governing regime whose leaders have been indicted on counts of genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity by the ICC. Meanwhile, assistance is given to British trade missions and British links when we should be warning British companies that Sudan is rated among the worst in the world for corruption, high inflation, opaque banking and dubious overseas payment systems. In addition, DfID still channels aid through a Government run by those indicted war criminals, surely knowing that it reaches only projects and people acceptable to them.
We should be turning the tap off and challenging Khartoum on every occasion when an aid agency travel permit is withheld, an aid shipment delayed due to some fatuous new regulation, a new restriction is invented to stop humanitarian aid reaching needy people or a patrol of peacekeepers is attacked or intimidated by the regime or its proxies.
Can the Minister comment on an analysis that has suggested that our security services and Washington’s apparently count as their partners in the war on terror this regime that has such a terrible, criminal reputation? Does he agree that in view of the evidence against the current regime in Sudan, current debt relief negotiations should immediately be cancelled until such time as the regime, first, abides by its multiple promises under the CPA, and secondly, stops the aerial bombardment of its civilians and allows unfettered access for international humanitarian aid groups in areas of Sudanese aggression? Anything less will, tragically, guarantee that we will be debating the misery of Sudanese suffering in another 10 years.
Lord Avebury (LD)
My Lords, as the noble Baronesses, Lady Cox and Lady Kinnock, pointed out, Sudan is governed by an alleged war criminal charged at the International Criminal Court on five counts of crimes against humanity, two of war crimes and three of genocide. He and the Sudanese armed forces, of which he is supreme commander, continue to commit war crimes in Darfur, South Kordofan and Blue Nile. The Satellite Sentinel project reported last week on the repositioning of SAF military units threatening new attacks on the civilian populations of Abeyi and South Kordofan, which have been subjected to more than two years of relentless bombardment.
Might the UN ask member states with satellites that pass over the conflict areas in Sudan to make their own images and analyses available to the Security Council to reinforce the excellent work being done by the Satellite Sentinel Project?
Has my noble friend seen the Rapid Food Security and Nutrition assessment published by the Enough project on South Kordofan? It concludes that the bombardment of civilians, together with the bar on international humanitarian aid, has resulted in severe malnutrition and dire food security outlooks. The authors say that the condition of refugees from Blue Nile state indicates that the conditions there may be comparable with those in South Kordofan. These are further war crimes and the Minister may want to say something about the possibility of further indictments at the ICC.
Another group of victims in a desperate state are the 40,000 South Sudanese who were left behind in Khartoum at the time of independence three years ago. Their camp was flooded and latrines are overflowing, spreading disease to these homeless and stateless people, weakened by malnutrition. The UN Central Emergency Response Fund has allocated $5.5 million for emergency shelter, healthcare, education and public health initiatives for the victims of flooding, including the South Sudanese, but for the latter it is a short-term solution only. The International Organisation for Migration has a plan to airlift 20,000 of the most vulnerable to South Sudan at a cost of $20 million. Can this plan be expanded so that the IOM repatriated all the people to their homeland with the help of donors such as the UN Central Emergency Response Fund?
Meanwhile, UNHCR is already having to cope with 220,000 refugees in South Sudan and another 40,000 in Ethiopia. Can my noble friend say what the budget for these operations in 2013 is and whether it is being met? These people were mostly bombed out of their homes in South Kordofan and Blue Nile and their plight is the direct result of Bashir’s military campaigns against civilians. Now the ground attack is being reinforced by the acquisition of Sukhoi Su-25 aircraft and Mi-24 ground attack helicopters. My noble friend says that these breaches of the UN sanctions will be dealt with by the panel of experts’ report in January 2014, but surely where there is credible evidence, such as we have from Radio Dubanga—a reliable witness in the past—and from the Satellite Sentinel project already mentioned, the Security Council should take prompt action to call Khartoum to account over its breaches of its international obligations.
At the same time, the African Commission on Human and People’s Rights should investigate the wave of extrajudicial killings and arbitrary detentions as proposed by 11 international and African organisations last week. At least 170 people have been killed and more than 800 detained following widespread protests against the ending of fuel subsidies. Newspapers and broadcasters have been shut down, editors have been told what they are to say about the protests and the head of the Sudanese Doctors’ Union was detained when he spoke on BBC Arabic about the number of casualties admitted to his hospital. The UN rapporteur on extrajudicial executions and the working party on arbitrary detention should collect evidence and report on those events, preferably after visiting Sudan, but in the absence of an invitation, based on witness statements collected in response to a public appeal. I know that that is not the normal method of working by UN special procedures, but their hesitant approach accounts for their lack of effectiveness in stopping these human rights abuses.
How can the international community secure an improvement in Khartoum’s behaviour? The IMF persuaded the regime to cancel fuel subsidies in an attempt to control its rocketing external debt, scheduled to reach $46 billion this year. But the US special envoy to South Sudan and Sudan, Donald Booth, said last month that Khartoum is spending the same on military operations in Darfur, South Kordofan and Blue Nile as it did on the fuel subsidies. If the IMF made the ending of these conflicts and of purchases of sophisticated foreign military equipment a condition of debt relief, there would be a double benefit to the Sudanese economy and to the hundreds of thousands of victims of Khartoum’s aggression.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Cox for once again focusing our attention on the suffering peoples of Sudan. I begin by expressing sadness and some shock that, despite all the debates and all the attempts to create a climate for peaceful development, the suffering in that war-torn country continues unabated. My first visit to South Sudan was during the civil war, which claimed 2 million lives, and, in 2004, I went to Darfur and saw first hand a conflict which had claimed between 200,000 and 300,000 lives. While the world looked on, 90% of Darfur’s villages were razed to the ground. At the time, I published a report entitled, If This Isn’t Genocide, What Is? Throughout 2011 and 2012, I tabled questions and spoke in your Lordships’ House about the new genocide unravelling, as we have heard, in South Kordofan and Blue Nile, which was described by Dr Mukesh Kapila, a former high-ranking British and United Nations official, as,
“the second genocide of the 21st century”—
Darfur being the first. Those who unleashed this torrent of unconscionable violence on their own people are undoubtedly mass murderers and fugitives from justice, having been indicted by the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity. In South Kordofan and Blue Nile, more than 1 million are now displaced, and the perpetrators are attempting to repeat what happened in Darfur, but this time by closing borders and refusing access without witnesses.
Two years ago, Ministers told me that they were urgently seeking access to the affected areas:
“Reports of such atrocities will be investigated and, if they prove true, those responsible will need to be brought to account”.—[Official Report, 21/6/11; col. WA 294.]
Three months later, Ministers said that,
“we continue … to seek urgent access to those most affected by the conflict”.—[Official Report, 9/11/11; col. WA 66.]
However, we have lamentably failed to do either, failing both systematically to collect evidence from fleeing refugees and to gain access to the areas on which bombs have been raining down. I hope that the Minister will update us on both of those questions.
Yesterday I attended a briefing of the Associate Parliamentary Group for the Republic of Sudan and South Sudan, of which I am an officer, along with the noble Baronesses, Lady Kinnock and Lady Cox. What I heard did not just leave me saddened and shocked, it also left me angry.
We heard that in Darfur, where 2.3 million people are already displaced, a further 350,000 people have been displaced since January and 1.3 million people are now in temporary camps; that aerial bombardment is a regular occurrence; that there is a climate of fear and terrorisation and a rapid downward trend in security; and that the situation is getting worse. We heard that there may be another 50,000 people displaced in Adela but no one, including a UNAMID force of more than 20,000 personnel, has access, so no one really knows. For INGOs, the situation is fraught with danger following the killing of two of World Vision’s staff in July. There is now virtually no humanitarian access to areas that are not held by the Government.
Yesterday we were told that it is five years since DfID officials have been able to get beyond the state capitals in Darfur to visit projects run by NGOs. I hope that we will hear from the Minister that our commitment to Darfur and the rest of Sudan remains a priority for the UK, that DfID staff are fully informed of the situation, and that we are finally getting to grips with the fact that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock, said, the Doha document for peace in Darfur is on its last legs. I hope that the Minister will tell us when we last raised Darfur and the situation in South Kordofan in the Security Council. The Security Council resolutions banning military flights over Darfur are, we heard yesterday, regularly being broken and those who issue their genocidal orders do so with total impunity.
As I prepared for today’s debate, it was with a genuine sense of sadness. It is more than 10 years ago that, on the eve of a breakthrough in negotiations between the Government of Sudan and SPLA rebels, I welcomed the new atmosphere of hope, but also warned that a ceasefire would be no guarantee of democracy or justice for all. More than 10 years later, it is clear that the CPA that followed has failed to bring change, democracy, or justice to the Sudanese peoples of Sudan or South Sudan. That remains today a distant dream in many of those places. I also feel shock because, despite the ongoing and mounting tragedy of a further decade of war, the attention of the world appears to have turned away from the region.
It is not only Darfur and South Kordofan; consider for a moment the peoples of central and northern Sudan, who flocked to the streets in September of this year and were brutally massacred by the Government of Sudan’s security services. More than 200 protesters were shot dead. The awfulness speaks for itself. Consider also the situation in Jonglei, where it is thought that militias loyal to the Government in Khartoum have also been trying to destabilise the situation.
More than 10 years ago, I said to the House that Sudan’s modern history is littered with temporary peace agreements which were eventually broken. The CPA has been broken for the people of South Kordofan and Blue Nile, and it has been broken for the people of Abyei. The various Darfur peace processes were flawed and have not been honoured. The eastern Sudan peace agreement does not work for the eastern Sudanese.
It is past time to think strategically. Are we prepared simply to sit back and watch protesters be killed on the streets of Khartoum, or will we get behind calls for fundamental change in Sudan? What are Her Majesty’s Government doing to help the African Union High-Level Implementation Panel on Sudan? The panel is tasked with mediating Sudan’s internal conflicts and its conflict with South Sudan, but can it really have the necessary capacity required for all the immense tasks which it has been given?
Finally, I wonder if the Minister has seen the report launched by the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Oystermouth, just two weeks ago on behalf of Aid to the Church in Need. The report details the specific persecution of Christians in many parts of the Republic of the Sudan. This is a really troubling phenomenon which is now occurring on a systematic basis. I look forward to the Minister’s reply.
The Lord Bishop of Guildford
My Lords, I completely endorse what has been said so far in this discussion. I want to raise a rather different point, but equally I want to express my distress—and, indeed, my shared anger—about the humanitarian, agrarian and political disaster about which we have been speaking.
My rather different point is a question about the implications of further destabilisation of Sudan for the country’s international neighbours. I think that that is an important point. I visit Nigeria regularly, and I am due to fly out to Abuja on Sunday. Four years ago, I was able to go to the province of Maiduguri up in the north-east. I cannot go there now, at the moment anyway, because of the political situation. Maiduguri is a long, long way from Sudan—many miles away. Nevertheless, I believe that there is a connection.
When I was there four years ago I visited some of the townships on Lake Chad itself, and was asked by a small Christian community to go on the lake in a little fishing boat with an outboard motor. I heard of the troubles and the difficulties there—not least the difficult political jurisdictions around Lake Chad, on which I will not elaborate—and of the problem of a receding lake and what that will do to those communities. When I got back I was told that the relationship between the small minority Christian communities in one of those townships and the majority Muslim population was very good until people came from Sudan through Chad, over Lake Chad. Then the trouble started.
There is a real question about the escalation of ethnic and religious violence, and its spread from east Africa to west Africa. That is anecdotal, but my intuition is that it is probably right, although at the moment in relatively small scale. The noble Baroness, Lady Cox, could say more about that, as she is very aware of the situation in Nigeria. I therefore ask the Minister perhaps to touch on the risk of a more general destabilisation of east and west Africa spreading from Sudan, as the situation there continues seriously to deteriorate.
Lord Hussain (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, for initiating this debate. Her hard work in that region is always appreciated by the House, and by me as well. I have had the opportunity to visit both South Sudan and Sudan in the past year or two, but what I am going to say today is largely not part of my findings or experience.
Many of us around the world thought that the conflict in Sudan would be resolved once the partition of Sudan took place and South Sudan became an independent country. Unfortunately, even after two years of South Sudan’s independence, the conflict does not seem to be coming to an end. There are many reasons for that. I am glad that the African Union is taking more interest in helping to resolve the outstanding issues between Khartoum and Juba, and the presidents of both countries have met and are talking to each other, which is a good sign. Sitting around and resolving issues by negotiation rather than by taking up arms is good.
However, today I want to concentrate on something that is not helping the population and that is the role of the new country’s armed forces, which have not yet adapted to their new role and are still acting very much like a militant organisation. According to the latest report of Human Rights Watch, dated September 2013, since December 2012 the Sudan People’s Liberation Army—the SPLA, South Sudan’s army—locked in conflict with the ethnic Murle rebels from the South Sudan Democratic Movement, has committed serious violations of international humanitarian and human rights law. SPLA soldiers have unlawfully killed at least 96 people, mostly civilians, from the Murle ethnic group during the conflict, and they have engaged in the widespread looting of homes, clinics, schools and churches. The abuses by SPLA soldiers have had a devastating and potentially long-lasting impact on this marginalised minority ethnic group from Pibor county and have caused widespread fear and displacement, contributing to a strongly held perception of persecution among the Murle civilian population.
The abuses have taken place against a background of ethnic conflict. Dinka Bor, Lou Nuer and Murle ethnic groups, all in Jonglei State, have been locked in a cycle of cattle-raiding attacks and increasingly brutal revenge attacks for several years. The rebellion and the SPLA counter-offensive have further aggravated pre-existing ethnic tensions in the area, which, in the case of anti-Murle sentiments, may have played into the extent of the abuses and slow government response. The potential for further grave violations and violence is very high, in part because the SPLA, an army still in transition, faces significant command, control and discipline challenges and also because ethnic tensions are so high in Jonglei, especially anti-Murle sentiment.
Inter-ethnic violence between the Lou Nuer, Dinka and Murle communities has killed thousands of people in recent years. The Government of South Sudan have failed to prevent this violence, despite frequent warnings of impending attacks, to protect civilians or to hold accountable those responsible for these attacks. In early July 2013, according to the report, thousands of Lou Nuer fighters massed and attacked Murle areas. The full extent of the attack is still not known. Murle who were displaced by the conflict and by SPLA abuses may have been especially vulnerable to the attack. Allegations of government support, including the provision of ammunition to the Lou Nuer, reported by credible sources heard by Human Rights Watch, have further deepened Murle perceptions of government persecution.
The Government’s failure meaningfully to redress the abuses by the SPLA during the disarmament paved the way for further abuses by soldiers in late 2012 and 2013. This report documents the extent of the SPLA’s violations against Murle civilians between December 2012 and July 2013, causing the majority of the Murle population to flee to remote areas of the bush, many of them believed to be cut off from access to emergency food and medical aid. Tens of thousands of Murle are now displaced and too frightened to return, including most of the civilians from all six main population areas in Pibor county, which is now little more than barracks.
SPLA soldiers approached a group of civilians in a village where men were playing a traditional board game. They demanded that the men hand over their guns. The men gave the SPLA two rifles. The SPLA then tied up the men into two groups of seven. The soldiers executed the men in one group at the site and took the men in the other group some distance away and shot them. One man who was shot in the shoulder and left for dead survived the shooting and was later found by other community members.
In conclusion, has the Foreign Secretary raised the issue with his South Sudanese counterpart and will he consider reporting South Sudan to the International Court of Justice for war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by the South Sudanese army against its own people?
Lord Triesman (Lab)
My Lords, in congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, not least on her tenacity, and other noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, I hope that they will forgive me if I wince and say, “Yet another debate on Sudan”. Those of us who have been there often will feel it the most acutely. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, used the word “anger”, to which I subscribe. There have been more years of conflict and more than 1 million additional people have been affected in the past two years. There are 190,000 more Sudanese refugees in South Sudan. There is further conflict and differences between different groups on political objectives, including between the herders and other farmers. There is, I suppose, conflict between settled communities and those who see very little relevance in being settled because they move with their herds and because borders are not particularly relevant to them.
Two months ago, mass demonstrations about the cost of living and the economy of the country were met by a brutal regime with live ammunition and tear gas, and with mass imprisonment. Negotiations on the safe demilitarised border zone have gone into reverse. Nothing is safe. Nothing is demilitarised. No border zone has been agreed. An African Union peace initiative, through the African Union Peace and Security Council, was twice rescheduled amid sharp African Union criticism once again of the Government of Sudan, and was not responded to by that Government. There was a rather better report on the Government of South Sudan, but none of it yet is making a difference.
It has to be said that South Sudan is both a source of and a destination country for men, women and children who have been subjected in some cases to forced labour and sex trafficking, including women and girls from Uganda, Kenya and the DRC. Inter-ethnic abductions continue but at least the South Sudanese Government have recognised the issues and are trying to intervene. The economies of South Sudan and Sudan, with their high level of interdependency, are continuously disrupted by border disputes and oil transmission fees. I understand that oil reserves are set to halve within 10 years if no new fields come on stream. Exploration of new fields is of course almost impossible amid the military clashes.
War crimes are committed with virtual impunity. There has been no action to enforce international criminal arrest warrants. A large United Nations operation, with at least 4,000 troops in Abyei and 7,500 in South Sudan, has had far too little impact. As the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford said, instability is spreading right through the region—through the DRC, and to a lesser extent in Uganda, and the Central African Republic. Uganda’s help for South Sudan historically has been the basis for the Sudanese Government’s sponsorship of murderous groups, including the monstrous Lord’s Resistance Army and now other groups which have taken its place.
I suppose that, with a feeling of some desperation, we are tempted to ask what is new. There is little point in demanding a great deal more intervention from the UK Government, much as I would wish to. I think that the Government lack the means or the local alliances to do much, and I fear that they lack the will. Of course there will be protests and those protests are important. There will be realism about humanitarian aid. I urge the Government to find alternative routes for aid rather than those through Khartoum. That will not do any longer. Is there more that could be done? Are we destined to return to this debate again and again, to these issues with no real answers? I am one of life’s optimists but this would be a dismal prospect for all of us and I ask if there is new ground we could break. Let me make a modest attempt.
First, of course African issues will be resolved ultimately in Africa for the most part, and by Africans. That must make us focus on the African Union and its machinery and on the sub-continental regional bodies. The issue of capacity in those bodies is critical. It has been for years. The problem is not just money or a lack of outstanding individuals, because there are some outstanding individuals, and it is not just the presence of a mass murderer at the head of the Government of Sudan. Would the Government consider, as a European initiative, a joint EU-AU review of the financial and skills needs of the African Union, carried out routinely at intervals of not more than three years, with a report on the outcome of those discussions and an annual report on the milestones? Then we at least could see some machinery and assess whether it works.
Secondly, would the Government, through the Security Council, advance the case for a standing arrangement—I am not saying a standing force—that can call into existence a peacekeeping force much more rapidly, rather than with the delays during which many more people die? Will the Government, through our multinational treaties, alliances and membership organisations, seek the full commitment of everyone in those bodies to act on the arrest warrants in all the jurisdictions that they cover? Al-Bashir is a wanted mass murderer. Will Her Majesty’s Government introduce targeted sanctions? The response in the Chamber to a question just a few days ago was that we had talked to the Nigerians about this without any indication of what happened next—that truly will not do now. It will not do.
Thirdly, will the Government, through its aid programme in the multi-national infrastructure initiatives, look for economic developments which would make a much greater difference? There has been a wider discovery of oil far from ports and from infrastructure. Most of it would be transformational but the countries involved need to co-operate in order to make any difference. Will we assist them to make a difference and give some economic hope?
Finally, on occasions I have heard the aspiration to join the Commonwealth expressed in Juba. I do not know whether that is a workable concept—it may not be yet—but it would certainly provide skilled resources in training, including in health and in the treatment of polio. It would provide links to trade and expertise in all Commonwealth countries. It would provide local trade links, for example in Uganda, Kenya and the region, which might be fundamentally helpful in the development of South Sudan. It would provide a secretariat able to assess the capacity needs and the choreography for the provision of greater capacity; and it would tell the enemies of democracy that they face a worldwide community of democratic nations who will not let this pass.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, it has been an impassioned debate. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, for pursuing this issue as she has done so vigorously over many years, and I know that the work of the Associate Parliamentary Group for Sudan and South Sudan also continues to do that.
The right reverend Prelate pointed out that what we see happening across the border between Sudan and South Sudan is also happening across Sudan and South Sudan’s borders with their neighbouring states. This is part of a set of regional conflicts which now sadly flow across the Sahel and central and east Africa. The Lord’s Resistance Army has just made another cross-border attack. As we know, it operates from Uganda, through South Sudan into eastern Congo. Recent events in the Central African Republic, where the Government have been overthrown, have reportedly been supported by groups from Darfur; groups in Darfur have very often obtained their weapons from Libya, Chad or the Central African Republic. Some of these groups move very easily across frontiers. We recognise that part of this is tribal, part of this is ethnic, part of this is racial, and part of this now, sadly, is also the militant Islamic ideology which attracts youths from across those countries. It brings in foreign fighters and foreign ideas of the sort that the right reverend Prelate commented on, breaking up what had been relatively peaceful relations between different communities and different faiths and raising severe problems for all of us, across Africa. I am happy that we will be debating the dreadful situation in eastern Congo in the not too distant future.
Within Sudan, neither the Government in Khartoum nor the Government in Juba control their entire territory. The Government in Khartoum have the advantage of armed forces and external arms supplies and, as we all know, are misusing them in South Kordofan and Blue Nile. There are linked conflicts across the border, with each Government claiming that the other continues to support the rebels within what they regard as their territories; and the border, as established under the comprehensive peace agreement, is not yet accepted by either side. We must recognise that the SPLM in the north refuses to recognise the borders as established.
We have heard a lot about events surrounding the demonstrations in Sudan, which Ministers have condemned both publicly and privately. We certainly want a more democratic space to open up in Sudan. We deeply regret that the Government of Sudan continue to get arms supplies from outside. We are not entirely sure which countries they are coming from, but they are clearly from the forces in what we used to call the Eastern Bloc. We have a fairly good idea where some of them come from. We meet regularly with opposition groups both within and outside the country. That includes meeting the leadership of the SPLM-North, although we do not support its stated aim of overthrowing the regime by force. We also recognise that the Sudan Revolutionary Front is itself a loose coalition of different bodies and not entirely cohesive in its operation.
I must say to the noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock, that we do not channel aid through the Government. We are co-operating with technical preparations for debt relief, but we have made it abundantly clear that debt relief will not be possible until the conflicts are resolved and that the benefits must flow to promoting development in Sudan.
On Darfur, we continue to look with horror at what is happening, while increasingly understanding that some of the militias are not entirely under the control of the central Government in Khartoum. We regret that the Doha document has not in any sense been adopted and that the situation in many ways continues to deteriorate. The question of what we can do about it on our own is difficult.
The noble Lord, Lord Alton, talked about the comparison with Libya. It is much easier to enforce a no-fly zone, or even to intervene, in a country where almost the entire population lives within 50 miles of the coast than it is to enforce a no-fly zone a very long way from the coast—across the borders between South Sudan and northern Sudan—let alone over Darfur. We continue to work with others on the situation in Darfur. We continue to ask within the UN for an effective review of the not very effective UN force in Darfur.
We are doing what we can, but we recognise that it is not enough. Restrictions on access to Darfur are part of the problem. We all understand how appalling what is going on in South Kordofan and Blue Nile is. Local organisations, with support from international partners, are gathering evidence of abuses. We do not have access to those areas to gather evidence first-hand. Noble Lords will know that the two Presidents have met on a number of occasions. We hope that the recent improvement in relations between Sudan and South Sudan will help to resolve the conflict, but we all recognise that the conflict has a dynamic of its own.
Within South Sudan, there are also problems of internal conflict. The noble Lord, Lord Hussain, talked about the conflict in Jonglei, which the South Sudanese Government claim is being supported by the Khartoum Government. We have to recognise that these have aspects of ethnic conflict between tribes. I am tempted to say that some of these are cattle raiding with AK-47s. Unfortunately, with AK-47s you can kill an awful lot more people than you could with spears. There are elements there where government as such—the idea of a settled state—has not developed. In Abyei, as we all understand, the conflict between the Misseriya and the Ngok Dinka has elements of Cain and Abel about it. We are talking about settled tribes versus nomadic tribes. There again, once the weapons are freely available, the challenge is very clear.
On Abyei, we do not recognise the outcome of the unilateral referendum held by the Ngok Dinka community held last week. However, we understand the frustrations that led to it taking place and the extent to which external forces and pressures imposed an extra layer on what were traditional local rivalries and conflicts. Almost three years have elapsed since the referendum should have taken place simultaneously with the wider referendum for South Sudan, but we have seen, as we all know, repeated failure to move forward by honouring existing agreements.
What are the UK Government doing about that? We are no longer an imperial power within the region. We have to work with others. We are working as closely as we can with the African Union and the high-level panel. We are certainly providing the support that we feel will help in the circumstances. We are also, of course, working through and with the United Nations. We are doing our best to make the EU a more active player than it has been. The United Kingdom and France are pushing our EU partners to be more engaged across the whole of northern, eastern and central Africa. It is not a message that all our EU partners are yet willing to hear. The British and the French continue to be by far the most actively engaged. We have to recognise that, as people like me go round other capitals, we have to try to explain to them why our interests are engaged in some of these areas because the problem of refugee migration across the Mediterranean is not entirely disengaged from what is happening across the Sahel and elsewhere.
We wish that the Arab League was more active—the Arab League of which Sudan is a member. The Doha agreement was after all moderated by the Qataris, but we would like to see stronger Arab League involvement. We would like to see more active Chinese involvement. The Chinese have real interests at stake in the supply of oil from South Sudan through Sudan. I am told that the Chinese have now become something of a moderating influence, but I think we all understand that the Chinese Government are reluctant to get too heavily involved in outside intervention.
DfID has a major commitment to South Sudan. I have not been to Juba or Khartoum but I have talked to a number of people working in the aid field in Abyei, Darfur and Juba itself. We are working to try to build the capacities of that very new and undeveloped Government. We saw the change in the Cabinet as being a positive development, and we continue to support them in every way that we can.
The two Permanent Secretaries of DfID and the Foreign Office visited the two capitals in October, and my honourable friend Mark Simmonds is going to Juba at the end of this month, so we are and remain actively engaged. The noble Lord, Lord Triesman, asked for a joint EU-AU review. That is a highly desirable development and I will take that back. As I said, we have to work hard to make sure that all our 27 partners in the EU are committed to this and we have to recognise that the AU has some severe limitations on its own capacities. Going towards a standing arrangement of a peacekeeping force may stretch the AU further than it is yet able to go.
We should recognise that there are AU forces in place—Ethiopian forces in Abyei and Ugandan forces in Somalia—and a brigade under UN auspices in eastern Congo. So a number of African countries are now quite heavily committed. They lack transport, intelligence and logistics. The Government in Juba are pretty dependent on UN helicopters for transport around the country.
Lord Triesman
I understand only too well the point that is being made about the AU. My suggestion was that the discussion should happen under the auspices of the Security Council because it is possible for other kinds of forces—for example, as we found with Scandinavian police forces in Darfur—to have a very significant role in peacekeeping.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I take that point and of course the UN also has to have a large role. With regard to the Nordic countries, I also recall that the three guarantors of the comprehensive peace agreement were the United Kingdom, the United States and Norway. We continue to raise these issues regularly within the UN Security Council. It is a matter of continuing discussion and we will continue to push very hard. I sincerely hope and trust, and am confident, that noble Lords here, including the noble Baroness herself, will continue to push us to maintain that pressure. Having answered, I hope, most of the points raised in this debate, I will conclude my speech.
Millennium Development Goals
(11 years ago)
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Lord Loomba
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress has been made on the Millennium Development Goals covering the improvement of education for girls and young women in developing countries.
Lord Loomba (LD)
My Lords, I welcome this opportunity to debate progress towards the millennium development goals concerning the education of women and girls in developing countries. I know that my noble friend Lady Northover was going to respond to this debate but is unable to do so. I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Bates, in her place and I hope he is as passionate about the plight of women and girls in developing countries as she is, and I look forward to his response.
The UN’s flagship millennium development goals campaign launched in 2000 gave many of us great hope. It gave us hope that by 2015 important issues, such as education, promoting gender equality and health, will have been significantly improved in developing countries. While I am delighted that some progress has been made in these areas, I remain concerned that 2015 is now on the horizon but not enough progress has been made in order to hit these goals within this timescale.
Education should be the birthright of every child. Unfortunately, the statistics tell us a very different story. More than 57 million children around the world do not go to primary school. Even more shockingly, at least 250 million children cannot read or count, whether or not they go to school. Despite some progress, the UN is falling short of its promise to ensure that,
“by 2015, children everywhere, boys and girls alike, will be able to complete a full course of primary schooling”.
Education is the key to solving many of the health crises across the developing world. It is also the key to minimising conflict. It is well known by the UN, Governments and NGOs that investing in education for women and girls is one of the most effective ways of reducing poverty. I am proud that the UK Government have committed to spending 0.7% of income on aid to help the world’s poorest people. They, like me, realise that children are our future. This money from our country will go towards educating 11 million of the world’s poorest and most disadvantaged children. Ring-fencing this money was the right thing to do and I commend my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, for fighting for this to happen.
The Department for International Development’s priorities for education focus on improving learning, reaching more children and keeping girls in school. It is right to focus on keeping girls in school as there are so many places around the world where they are stopped from receiving the education they need. Stemming from this important priority is the Girls’ Education Challenge, which was set up by the department in 2011 to help up to a million of the world’s poorest girls have an opportunity to improve their lives through education. I was disappointed to see on the department’s website that only £7.5 million out of the possible budget of £61 million has been spent so far through this initiative. I ask the Minister to look into this and see whether improvements can be made.
The now infamous case of Malala Yousafzai, shot by the Taliban for campaigning for girls to be educated in Pakistan is sadly one of many examples throughout the world of women being held back from education.
The reasons why girls are not on a par with their brothers in education across developing countries are complex and diverse, but in many cases interconnected. Research shows that boys are still favoured by parents to receive education over girls in many countries. Early marriage, early pregnancy, domestic responsibilities and a gender-insensitive curriculum are just some of the reasons cited for that. Those issues must be addressed by the respective Governments in partnership with the UN to make more progress on the MDG framework.
What practical steps can Governments take to get more girls into education across the world? The culture of boys being favoured over girls to be educated must stop, and attitudes need to change. There is a growing body of evidence to demonstrate a strong relationship between the presence of female teachers and the attendance and performance of girls in schools, particularly in rural areas. Female teachers are often seen as role models for the girls and their parents. Breaking down barriers such as that one is essential to success.
Having greater female participation and influence in public life in developing countries is another key to growing the number of girls in education. That will ensure that female-specific needs and interests are promoted and defended. On a practical level, that could be as simple as ensuring that schools have female toilets and drinking water, which will encourage girls to go to school.
Government support and leadership in developing countries is essential to deliver more girls into education. I declare an interest: through my charity, the Loomba Foundation, I have seen that first hand. We do a huge amount of work in India educating the children of widows. There are 500 million children of widows across the world, according to UN figures, and 51% of them are girls. Despite making good progress in many parts of India, we had difficulties in the north-eastern states. That was primarily due to the lack of regional government support and leadership. That lack of government support is in my view one of the key contributing factors to why MDG framework targets have not been met in many developing countries.
I leave your Lordships with this. It is vital that the UN sets ambitious but achievable goals, targets and indicators within the post-2015 MDG framework, especially about ensuring that more women and girls have the opportunity to be educated. That will have a positive ripple effect on other problems facing developing countries, such as general and maternal health, gender equality and help to reduce child mortality.
Education is the best gift that anyone can give a child, and I welcome the continuing support from our Government to developing countries in that area. However, I ask our Government to do even more to get larger numbers of girls into education and to put pressure on the UN and other Governments to help to achieve that.
Baroness Chalker of Wallasey (Con)
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Loomba on raising this issue because now is certainly the time to put pressure not only on our own departments but on all the international organisations in which we work. While girls’ education is becoming accepted in some countries, I am afraid the vast majority of girls in the developing world probably have the opportunity of education only in the primary stage and not beyond. Should they marry early or fall pregnant, that opportunity is frequently removed from them by one means or another.
I have been looking at what the United Nations Girls’ Education Initiative has been doing across many countries and, while it is laudable, it is very patchy. It does not extend and I have tried to find examples. Most of my mine come from Africa but there are others. I want to highlight a couple that are indicative of what can be done in other places and are known to have worked. In Rwanda, the United Nations Girls’ Education Initiative has functioned as a multistakeholder partnership and if that were extended to other countries, it would work very well. It is not just a question of getting parents to send their girls to school; there is also the problem of getting educationalists in national government departments to realise the importance of girls going to school. So you have to work from both ends of the problem—through the individual departments of education and through the families. You also have to work through the churches and the mosques. With the mosques we have a problem, which I am not qualified to talk about, in the sense that so many do not think girls’ education is valuable. But I firmly believe that there is much more that can be done by setting an example in government departments, in districts of countries and through the various institutions.
Certainly, the revised education sector strategic plan that came into effect in July this year in Rwanda was easier to enact there because it is a small country. In a huge country like Ethiopia which is difficult to get around and where communications are not yet of a nature where you can rely on the internet, it is notable that since a gender budgeting guideline was developed there some five years ago, there has been much better debate on capacity building and gender mainstreaming. This is an interesting area which I hope to follow up in December when I am there. There are also new measures in Zambia, helped by the influence of UNICEF, which has some very good ideas, such as its re-entry policy guidelines for teenage mothers, the finalisation of the child protection policy for schools and its gender review of HIV and AIDS policy.
I could quote many other examples, such as in Tanzania and other African countries, but what I note above all else is the fact that there are so many gaps between what is accepted in international forums and what happens in Governments and, based on an understanding of the problems, we have to bring pressure to bear on those national Governments as well as encouraging families to keep girl children in education.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
My Lords, I, too, wish to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Loomba, on securing this important debate and creating an opportunity for this issue to be brought to the attention of your Lordships’ House and to engage with the Government on it. It is an enormous privilege to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Chalker, and I commend the previous speeches for setting out the issues which need to be addressed. In the short time I have I intend to address just one discrete point.
Women and girls are marginalised enough but when multiple inequalities intersect, they are marginalised even more. More than one-third of the 57 million children who are not in school have a disability. There are very limited data on disability and they need to address this lacuna and make it one of the key messages of the global disability movement for the post-2015 framework to address. However, if there were statistics they would almost certainly show that girls are unequally represented among the children with disabilities who are out of school. There are a number of reasons for this and the noble Lord, Lord Loomba, enumerated some of them. They include broader gender inequality and entrenched cultural attitudes towards girls and women. Often girls and women in households are responsible for caring, cooking and cleaning or just working to support the family. There are often early and forced marriages of girls and a lack of female teachers or school managers or other female role models to encourage girls to participate. Unfortunately, gender-based violence and harassment, particularly on long journeys to school, make girls feel very unsafe. Among other things, poverty causes families to make choices about which children they should send to school and they often favour sending boys.
The MDGs 2 and 3 on universal primary education of girls have made considerable progress but, as the MDGs make no mention of disability, the harsh fact is that this progress has not reached girls with disabilities. The high-level panel’s shift on “leave no one behind” is to be welcomed. The UK Government have a special responsibility to ensure that this emphasis is not lost, as the discussions continue at UN level.
I am aware that girls’ education is a major priority for the Department for International Development. One of the headline goals is keeping girls, particularly the most marginalised, in school. A target for 2011-12 to 2014-15 to support 11 million girls and boys in school is a significant challenge and the sub-target of 1 million of the most marginalised girls is even more challenging. I welcome this focus and DfID’s flagship Girls’ Education Challenge, which is intended to deliver a step change in ensuring that the barriers that prevent girls from benefiting from education are removed.
I end with one simple but important question to the noble Lord, Lord Bates: how is DfID’s Girls’ Education Challenge fund reaching girls with disabilities?
Baroness Walmsley (LD)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Loomba for securing this important debate. I think we would all accept that when you educate a girl you also benefit her family. Although eliminating gender disparity has been a major focus of the MDGs, there are still 31 million girls of primary age not in school.
The poor quality of schooling in many parts of the developing world causes many girls to drop out and return to domestic or agricultural work. In some places the teachers do not turn up, demand bribes or are simply not well enough educated themselves. Among many other charities, the Steve Sinnott Foundation is trying to do something about that by training some of the teachers over here. As has been said, another reason why girls in rural areas do not go to school is because they simply fear for their safety on the journey. Among adult women, literacy rates are rising and the gender gap is narrowing. Even so, women represent two-thirds of the world’s illiterate adults.
If we draw any conclusions from the MDGs it should be that development must be holistic to have any real impact. The charity Network for Africa found that Rwandan women were unable to attend their free literacy and numeracy classes or vocational training sessions because they were worried about the safety of their children who were left at home. When childcare was provided, girls were no longer being kept home to care for younger siblings; mothers attended training programmes; and toddlers, who benefited from just one year of nutritious meals and cognitive development games, gained years ahead of their peers in health and mental ability. The women in the project quadrupled their income, on average, after six months. When women know that their babies are safe, they will attend classes and improve their life prospects.
Sadly, MDG progress sometimes disguises the fact that social norms still perpetuate discriminatory behaviour toward girls and women. Until someone challenges the idea that we cannot question traditional culture, no great strides will be made. Therefore, in the MDGs post-2015, we need indicators for social norms embedded into every aspect of development programming.
The MDGs tackle the easy part. The tough part is challenging cultures that keep discrimination against women in every aspect of their lives. The myth that gender equality is culturally sensitive and must be treated with kid gloves has to be challenged and debunked and the importance of universal human rights stressed. The position of adolescent girls is crucial and ought to be one of the focuses post-2015. Adolescence is when girls realise that their dreams are unattainable because of cultural traditions and persisting views about gender roles. It is all very well aiming attention at schooling but if negative attitudes still exist in the home they will dominate girls’ lives.
Finally, I wish to make a point about the importance of education in emergencies; it is an aspect of global education that is often forgotten. Nowhere is this more critical than in complex emergencies like the crisis in Syria. Currently in Syria, 2.3 million children inside the country and 400,000 refugee children are without education. More than 4,000 schools have been destroyed, damaged, used as shelters or occupied. In countries surrounding Syria, refugee children have put a strain on the local education systems. Without education and adequate psycho-social support, these children are at risk of accepting violence as normal and replicating it, undermining their own futures, the future of their nations and the stability of the region. The future of an entire generation lies in the balance; the global community must be more strategic in its planning and take steps now to avoid this lost generation and destruction of the region.
I ask the Minister whether the UK Government will ensure that the post-2015 MDG agenda adopts a 100% target for quality, basic education for all children and that inequalities relating to gender, location, age, and income levels will be tracked in all the targets in the post-2015 framework.
Lord Crisp (CB)
My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Loomba, on keeping up the pressure and the profile of this fantastically important issue, although I recognise that Her Majesty’s Government obviously understands this issue well. Nevertheless, we should keep the pressure up and keep producing examples of what works.
I want to make three points. The first is to re-emphasise something that the noble Lord, Lord Loomba, said; namely, that girls’ education is not only good in itself but is good as a means for other things. As people probably know, I speak from a background in health and my understanding of the fact that it is empowered women and educated girls who have big impacts in all kinds of areas of life. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, referred to the cultural context. DfID has done some very good work in a number of areas on health where it has engaged traditional leaders, particularly around issues such as maternal mortality. I wonder—simply because I do not know—the extent to which DfID has engaged traditional leaders in Africa and other places to put pressure on their communities to get girls to school, as they have done with maternal mortality.
All my points will repeat what someone else has said because, broadly, we are talking about a common understanding. My second point is about primary education. There is a developing issue in Africa, which is where I notice it, with people who have got primary education asking, “What happens next?”. The issues about higher and further education apply not only to girls of course. It would be good to hear from the Minister the Government’s view on that and on educating people to a certain level but not recognising the whole system.
My final point is on disability. I chair Sightsavers, which is concerned with the blind. We are very conscious of the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, that people who have multiple disadvantages are the least likely to get educated. If girls are less likely to get educated anyway, a disabled girl is going to have a bigger problem.
I believe the issue is even wider than that. A DfID publication states:
“It is principally the poor, rural children, children of uneducated mothers and children with disabilities that are excluded from education”.
There again is the point about this going down the generations and the fact that educating women can help to reverse that cycle.
I know that the Government, the Prime Minister and the high-level panel have made these pledges about leaving nobody behind, but that makes sense only if we can measure it in some way. It will be critical to understand how the Department for International Development and other agencies around the world will help to ensure that there are some measurement processes in place that will record whether girls with a disability are actually being excluded from education or are getting their fair share of it. How will monitoring be undertaken?
Lord Moynihan (Con)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the International Olympic Committee’s International Relations Commission, and will focus my remarks on the importance that sporting opportunities can have in advancing the MDGs and improving education for girls and women in developing countries.
Since the introduction of the MDGs, the world of sport has applied significant resources to development, helping to promote formal education, culture, healthy lifestyles, human rights, sustainability, gender equality, understanding among peoples and peace, to name a few. In my opinion, education underpins the entire set of MDGs. It is similarly the cornerstone of Olympism, a philosophy that aims to educate youth around the world through sport and its values.
The Olympic values reflect the notion of sport as a school of life. The IOC’s Olympic Values education programme forms an essential part of this perspective. The project was designed for children and young people, with developing countries in mind. The IOC has now rightly teamed up with the United Nations, with its observer status, and in particular with the work of UNESCO, to apply this programme to its network of schools in line with the organisation’s mandate to enhance and enrich quality education worldwide.
Gender equality is also critical to the world of sport in general. It is a matter of fairness. It is a human right that women and girls should be accorded the same opportunities as the other half of humanity. All of us involved in sport accept the universal reality that women are underrepresented in all aspects of life—political, economic and social—and that we all must do our best to contribute to the international agenda of righting that situation. The situation in sport reflects the importance of this balance both on the playing field and in administrations. The goal was and is to ensure that girls and women across the developing world are given equal opportunities to engage in sport and physical activities throughout their lifespan. The development of women’s sport is one aspect of a more general societal, social and cultural evolution which provides increased recognition of the roles and needs of women in society. These roles and needs are very similar to those already enjoyed by men and are signposts of a healthy society.
I am mindful of the many other challenges that the women of the world face in their daily lives, but the issue of women in sport is directly related to human and social rights. Sport is an integral part of society and exerts an influence on our lifestyle and social perceptions. The fundamental principles of the Olympic Charter state that every human being must have the possibility of practising sport in accordance with his or her needs.
I point to just one practical example; namely, the International Olympic Committee’s support of the UN Secretary-General’s Zero Hunger Challenge leading up to the 2016 Olympics in Rio. There is no level playing field in sport or in life without adequate nutrition for all. Few people appreciate the importance of good nutrition better than athletes, but hunger stunts the potential of 165 million children—one in four around the globe—and we have regrettably failed to meet the millennium development goal to halve hunger by 2015. Athletes can help to get these messages out as they know better than anyone the impact of nutrition on performance.
The UN Secretary-General has made 100% access to food for all an essential element of his Zero Hunger Challenge. Former President Lula’s Fome Zero programme in Brazil was the inspiration for the Zero Hunger Challenge, which was launched in Rio in 2012, making it a neat fit with the Brazil 2016 Olympics. At the closing ceremony of the London 2012 Olympics, the Brazilian Government formally promised to make hunger and nutrition a focus of the Rio 2016 Olympics; such is the power of sport. All of us who are involved in sport need to build a coalition of sporting personalities from around the globe—especially from developing countries—to speak in support of the Zero Hunger Challenge. The UN has wisely suggested that leading athletes could promote zero hunger through field project visits, media messages, speeches, editorials or articles.
I close with the reflection that the empowerment of women is at the core of an essential process which we need to put in place. Strengthening leadership and entrepreneurship capacities for women in and through sport will inevitably bring women to the forefront, and enable communities in developing countries to benefit from the increased contribution of more than half of the world’s population.
Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead (Lab)
My Lords, education is of course a basic human right, and it is one of the very best ways to reduce poverty within families and indeed across generations. It is key to efforts which have to be made to advance gender equality and women’s empowerment. Education provides the building blocks a girl needs if she is to participate fully in society, earn a living and care for her children and family. It also prepares her to stand up for her right to make her own decisions about her own life and her own future. Education is the one constant positive determinant of practically every single development outcome we seek.
Yesterday I met Manizha and Samira from Afghanistan, who are women’s rights activists. They described the regular attacks on girls who walk to school, the girls’ schools which have been burnt down, the acid attacks on girls, the poisoning of girls’ school drinking water, and the threats and violence that teachers face if they teach girls. Extremists clearly do their best to terrorise girls who still dare to go to school in Afghanistan. They told me about their concerns that there is insufficient monitoring by DfID of funds allocated to the Ministry of Education in Kabul. I would therefore appreciate information from the Minister on what checks and balances are in place to ensure that the funds are properly managed and distributed so that girls get their fair share of those funds.
In the limited time that I have, I also ask the Minister whether he agrees that UN discussions must focus on the urgent need to work to ensure that there is universal literacy by 2030. That has to include tackling the gender gap in access to literacy across the generations. An Education for All statistic tells us that of the 760 million illiterate adults around the world, two-thirds are women. This is despite the clear evidence that, unless there is a much stronger commitment to access to education for women and mothers, they will continue to be excluded and marginalised. Is it not time that Governments placed greater emphasis on tackling the blatantly discriminatory social norms which continue to dictate that boys’ education is to be valued more than girls’ education? Simply emphasising getting girls into schools is not enough. Unless a firm priority is given to the need to tackle the root causes of gender inequality, frankly it just will not ever happen.
The new global framework to be finalised in 2015 will include access to secondary education. Will the Minister outline DfID’s view on how girls’ transition to secondary school can be supported? Will the UK move beyond the high-level panel report recommendations and support a stronger position which recognises those underlying causes of gender inequality? I trust that the UK will convey a strong message on the need for a strong and explicit focus on gender inequality and women’s rights post-2015. The fact is that millions of women and girls simply cannot wait for the fulfilment of their right to a quality education.
Lord Bhatia (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Loomba, for raising this important issue today. He is an acknowledged individual who has worked on this issue for many years, particularly in India. I declare my interest as the vice-chair of the India 800 Foundation and as a supporter of a recently established charity called the Pearl Education Foundation.
I believe that the statistics published by various national and international agencies mask some of the realities of the problems facing women and girls in Asia and Africa. I should like to focus on some main issues relating to women and young girls. They are those of education and healthcare for women and, in particular, young girls between the ages of eight and 16. Many young girls are unable to go to school because many schools, both primary and secondary, do not have toilet facilities. That is a big issue and a deterrent that stops young girls attending schools. Many mothers of those young girls who have not been through any formal education are themselves unaware of those problems. The second issue on the health front for young girls is access to affordable sanitary towels. Right on the ground, those NGOs that work on this issue find that rags of clothing are used again and again, causing immense health issues. Please will the Minister inform us whether those two issues form part of Britain’s funding for women and girls under the millennium development goals?
Although Britain is contributing substantial funding through DfID in the third world, I draw the Minister’s attention to the issues facing many women who come to Britain from third-world countries to join their families. Research shows that many women who come from third-world countries are unable to speak English or connect with the wider community. As a result, finding jobs becomes almost impossible. Their inability to talk to their doctors and those at their children’s schools is well known. ESOL for those isolated groups of women, to bring them from the margins to the mainstream, is very important. Very little funding is available from local or central government, and I hope that the Minister will look into the issue and inform the Committee what is being done to increase funding in that area of work in the United Kingdom.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Loomba, on initiating this debate. I am aware that I am probably the least qualified on international matters to speak in it, given the excellent contributions, particularly when I put myself alongside my noble friends Lady Kinnock and Lord Browne.
The noble Lord, Lord Loomba, outlined the key issues, and I will not repeat them. However, the fact that we know that 123 million young people still lack basic reading and writing skills and that 61% of them are young women is a huge concern. We know that the millennium development goals will not be met in full so, surely, the question for the British Government to address is: what happens next? Are the UK Government involved in discussions about post-2015, particularly as outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley?
I want to make two points about how important girls’ education is. The first is to do with reproductive rights and control over their own fertility. We know that there are 215 million women in the developing world who want to delay or avoid pregnancy. We also know that all the information available from across the world, some of which was mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Chalker, tells us that the whole of their societies and communities benefit when women have control of their sexual health and childbirth.
The second link is between illiteracy and sexual violence. Yesterday, I read an article in the Nairobi Star from Kenya. A report had been published on the Ganze sub-county that states that higher literacy levels are partly to blame for the increase in cases of sexual, gender-based violence. The reason for this is in this report. Basically, the high illiteracy level hinders the conceptualisation of information about gender-based violence. In other words, young women and parents cannot report gender-based violence because they are illiterate. They do not understand how to do these things. Indeed, the children’s officer who compiled the report pointed out that literacy classes would be enormously beneficial in this respect.
We should take some hope from initiatives that have been taken and the dedication of people who are determined to effect change across the world to get girls and women educated. I would like to mention that our former Prime Minister Gordon Brown has dedicated a great deal of his time to this issue. He was the person who moderated the United Nations session in September in which Malala made her speech about the importance of education. It is worth quoting from that speech. Among her remarks she calls on leaders to focus on education:
“This is our demand, our request to all the responsible people—that instead of sending weapons, instead of sending tanks to Afghanistan and all these countries that are suffering from terrorism, send books. Instead of sending tanks, send pens. Instead of sending soldiers, send teachers. This is the only way we can fight for education”—
well, exactly.
I would also like to pay tribute to Hillary Clinton and the work that the Clinton Foundation is doing. No Ceilings: the Full Participation Project links education to women’s control over their lives, fertility and health. It is important to end my remarks on a note of hope. There is hope and there are people who are dedicated. I would like the Minister to assure us that the British Government are taking part in the hopeful nature of what comes next.
Lord Bates (Con)
I thank all noble Lords for taking part in this debate. I particularly pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Loomba for introducing this debate so effectively and comprehensively. He has great authority from his work over many decades in this area of levelling the playing field to help women and girls around the world. He was also quite right to refer to the fact that my noble friend Lady Northover, the lead Minister for DfID in the House of Lords, particularly wanted to be here, but due to a close family bereavement she is unable to be. I am sure that the whole Committee will want to send our condolences to my noble friend.
As the 2015 deadline for the millennium development goals approaches, it is right that we come together today to explore the core issues around the progress of education for girls and women. Progress on MDGs 2 and 3 has been made. Globally, more girls go to school; in sub-Saharan Africa, the net enrolment rate for girls rose from 47% to 75% between 1990 and 2011. Gender parity in primary enrolment has improved significantly in regions that started the decade with the greatest gender gaps. Literacy rates are on the rise, and gender gaps are narrowing.
However, under Millennium Development Goal 3, the target of gender parity in primary and secondary education has been achieved by only two out of 130 countries. Gender gaps in access to education have narrowed, but girls are still disproportionately absent from the classroom; 31 million girls are still out of school, and 70% of these are from the most disadvantaged communities in the world. In 10 countries, at least half of poor, rural girls have never been to school. Girls suffer double discrimination; first because they are poor and secondly because they are female.
I now turn to the points raised in the debate to give them maximum time because there were some excellent points and pertinent questions.
The noble Lord, Lord Loomba, asked a specific question about allocations of the gender fund which has been established. He mentioned his disappointment with the information from the website which showed that perhaps not much of it had been drawn down. Of course, the updating of websites is an essential part of communication; I looked into that and found that the figure was from April. As of now, £225 million has been allocated, and £25 million has been spent. This is an innovative process where people are bidding for funds and therefore to ensure that there are the correct checks and balances, the period during which those funds get distributed is longer than normal.
By 2015 the UK will have supported 11 million children in education in primary and secondary schools and 190,000 teachers. There are some very innovative examples taking place in the Punjab region, which will be of particular interest to the noble Lord. Stipends have been introduced for children to encourage them to take part in school. This means actually sending them the books and the pens and giving them some resource to enable them to attend school. That applies to 400,000 children in the Punjab area, which I think is a positive initiative.
I remember serving in the other place with my noble friend Lady Chalker when she was Minister for Overseas Development, before it was so fashionable. She served in that role with great distinction for eight years and it is thanks to her that much of the legacy continues. She mentioned Rwanda and Ethiopia and I listened carefully to her points, particularly about the importance of having supportive governance in place at a provincial level to encourage education and make it a priority. It reminds us that educating girls is only the first step towards empowering them to take greater control of their whole lives, and to then move on to becoming more economically active, to have a greater base and then to move into government, governance and institutions. It was well pointed out that as well as being educated, women are also educators; if you have an educated parent then you will have an educated child.
The noble Lord, Lord Browne, asked a specific question about disability. There is some progress there. The noble Lord highlighted—and with astute knowledge because of his experience—where the canards are in this particular debate, because the absence of reliable data is one of the things that the high-level panel noted needed a great deal more work. One of the new millennium development goals was a data revolution, and how you disaggregate that data to show gender differences and then disaggregate that further to show differences between disability. I would just mention two points to the noble Lord. First, DfID has a strong commitment to the education of people with disabilities and it seeks to ensure all new educational construction directly funded by DfID is accessible to people with disabilities. Secondly, it is also working with other organisations, including the World Bank and NGOs, to improve and get better data so that they can tackle this issue. One of the pieces of data which quite shocked me does not relate to a specific area, but says that the limited statistics that are available indicate that only 3% of adults with disabilities are literate in the poorest countries of the world, and only 1% of women with disabilities. The data issue is a key part and that is something which DfID is looking at.
The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, spoke powerfully about Syria in particular, and she used the words “the lost generation”, which is a great tragedy with so many refugees who are coming. On a recent visit, the Secretary of State established the lost generation fund of £30 million for children in Syria and the surrounding areas to ensure that they have better access to education. Therefore, we hope that the diplomatic efforts will be gathering pace, although that might take time. Of course, these are critical years for these children, some of whom I have seen myself in schools in the Bekaa area. She also mentioned access to good-quality education, which is important.
The noble Lord, Lord Crisp, mentioned completing education as well as making a point on data. He referred to his work with Sightsavers, which I know makes a huge difference around the world. Some 10 million children drop out from primary school education every year. The Girls’ Education Challenge will ensure that barriers preventing girls from benefiting from education are tackled at root by collecting data in a systematic way, by trying to track progress through the secondary school system and by asking those who qualify for the fund to collate data on the proportion of women marrying by the age of 15, attitudes towards age of marriage and choice of marriage partners. That data will help inform further work and further allocations.
My noble friend Lord Moynihan spoke about Olympic values, which of course have equality at their heart. As an Olympian of note, he has done a huge amount in this area. Last year, he rightly was awarded the Olympic Order of Merit for his work not just on the London Olympic Games but over many years on the international side and the development side. He works as a trustee of International Inspiration as well. He mentioned the Hunger Summit and the Hunger Challenge which came out of 2012. Before I came to the Moses Room, I read the new IOC president’s speech to the General Assembly of the United Nations yesterday to mark the Olympic Truce, which he and I worked on last year. He will have been heartened by that. It referred to the millennium development goals and the hunger pledges that were made, particularly towards Rio, which reminds us that education is body, mind and soul.
The noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock, served in the Foreign Office as a Minister and knows this area well. She spoke about the importance of ensuring funds to help and support Afghanistan in particular. The point is that women and girls are up front and central in all DfID’s considerations. The funding of £47 million over three years which DfID has allocated to the Ministry of Education is being supervised with that very much in mind. Just yesterday, my noble friend Lady Warsi met with officials from Afghanistan on that very point.
The noble Lord, Lord Bhatia, raised a specific point on the experience of migrants in education in the UK. Perhaps I may write to him on that. I would be very happy to meet on the margins of this debate to take better note of that issue. The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, spoke about reproductive rights, which of course is a key part of giving women control over their own lives and bodies. It is a critical area that we need to look at. She also recognised the work of Gordon Brown as the UN Secretary-General’s envoy, particularly on global education. All who saw the incredibly moving speech by Malala in the margins of the General Assembly really brought hope to us about the importance of education. The more that her voice is heard, the better.
It is right therefore that the Government place women and girls at the centre of their approach. All UK education programmes in developing countries prioritise the education of girls and, where needed, have specific interventions to address gender-specific barriers to educational opportunities. UK aid has so far supported 6.4 million children at primary and secondary level, of which 3.1 million were girls. Looking beyond 2015, the UK, through the Prime Minister and his co-chairmanship of the high-level panel, has been at the forefront of building momentum around the standalone goal for women and girls in the new development framework. However, this battle is far from won. We will continue to work with others to push this important agenda forward over the next two years.
To conclude, it is important that we focus on keeping NGOs, charities and the private sector engaged in developing projects that will expand education opportunities for women and girls. The noble Lord, Lord Loomba, began our debate by reminding us that education is the best gift you can give any child. Much has been done but more needs to be done.
House of Lords
Introduction: Lord Bamford
Housing: Leaseholder Redress Schemes
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress is being made in producing the necessary regulations to implement the access to redress schemes for owners of leaseholder properties established by the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013; and when they expect the scheme to be fully operational.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Stowell of Beeston)
My Lords, before answering my noble friend’s Question I should declare that I am an owner-occupier of a leasehold property.
The Government are making excellent progress. The order enabling the approval of schemes was laid on 25 October. This should be debated in Grand Committee shortly. The order, which will make it a legal requirement for agents to belong to a scheme, will be laid as soon as we are satisfied that there are sufficient approved schemes. We expect that to be early in 2014. We have also recently announced a significant package of support for tenants in the private rented sector.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)
My interest is declared in the register so I have not redeclared it here. I thank the Minister for that reply, which will give great hope to many of the 3 million leaseholders who have been so adversely affected in the past by the failure to have any essential repairs carried out on their properties. These people had almost given up hope and it is good to know that progress is being made. Of course, I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, for starting the whole thing going that got it into the Act in the first place.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I pay tribute to my noble friend for her efforts on behalf of leaseholders and join her in paying tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter. I also pay tribute to my much respected predecessor and noble friend Lady Hanham—together, they have achieved much. The requirement for managers to belong to a redress scheme will support the existing remedies by providing an alternative way of dealing with many of the day-to-day disputes that arise. I look forward to debating the orders and putting these important redress schemes in place so that all those who have felt let down until now will feel better supported in the future.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)
My Lords, the tribunal which replaces the leasehold valuation tribunal system is removing the £500 statutory limit on costs. As a consequence, will not many leaseholders now find it utterly impossible to go before a tribunal because they will be worried about what the final costs of their hearings could be?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
Leaseholders will have the option of continuing to pursue a complaint through the tribunal system as the noble Lord has described, but they will also have this new route for redress through the new schemes, which will not attract a fee. By introducing these schemes we are able to offer people more opportunities to get the right outcome if they feel they have a legitimate complaint to make.
Baroness Hanham (Con)
My Lords, I, too, acknowledge the work that has been done by the noble Baronesses, Lady Gardner and Lady Hayter, on this matter. Does the Minister agree that it is essential that people in leasehold properties understand their rights and obligations and the redress which is available to them as a result of this and other policies? Does she also agree that it is essential that people moving into the private rented sector—which is increasing, and must increase to help with housing problems—have the same knowledge?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My noble friend is absolutely right on those points. It is incumbent on government to make sure, through opportunities such as this, that both those living in leasehold properties and those in the private rented sector are aware of their new rights. It is incredibly important that we extend the private rented sector because one way of driving up standards is to increase choice for those living in the rented sector. I am pleased to announce today that we have agreed yet another new Build to Rent project, this time in Manchester, which will deliver 196 rented units by refurbishing three blocks of unused social housing.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
My Lords, I add my thanks as well as my congratulations to both the noble Baronesses, Lady Gardner and Lady Hanham. It is a shame, of course, that the Minister voted against this when we first pushed it through but we are delighted that a sinner has repented. Given that the Government are now saying they want to give support to those who have been disadvantaged by the activities of letting agents, will they rethink their opposition to full regulation of letting agents, which we have also proposed?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for paying so much attention to my voting record. This provision in the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act is the right way forward because it will provide, as I said, a new course of redress for leaseholders and tenants. We believe that once the schemes are in place they will drive up standards, which are so important, and that they will be able to do so without yet more regulation.
Lord Tope (LD)
My Lords, can the Minister tell us how the Government will ensure that redress schemes, particularly any government-administered ones, complement and build on the existing regulatory functions of local authorities? In particular, will the Government ensure that such schemes will have effective operational links with the Greater London Authority, which is implementing the Mayor of London’s London rental standard?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
As I understand it, in the rental sector—I am focusing now on the rental sector as opposed to leasehold properties—two redress schemes are already operating, and we certainly expect those two schemes to come forward for statutory approval. The new redress scheme was part of a wider package of measures that we announced a couple of weeks ago and that will provide greater support for those living in rented accommodation. We will certainly ensure, as part of that, that there is more support for local authorities, so that they can be even more effective in their responsibility to ensure that the accommodation provided in their area is of a high standard.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)
My Lords, since the noble Baroness has raised the issue of the private rented sector, I am sure she will be aware that for most people who are obliged to use that sector—which, of course, includes a number of Members of your Lordships’ House—the big issue is the enormous increase in rents over the past few years and the concomitant rise in payments to letting agents. Does she agree that it might be beneficial for the Government to investigate this market to see whether it really is operating in the consumer interest? At the moment, it is very much rampaging in the interests of those who let rather than of those who rent.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
As I said in response to another question, the most important action we can take to ensure that rents are kept at a sensible rate is to ensure that an increasing supply of rented accommodation is accessible to people. We are very much behind that. One way in which we are doing that is with a £1 billion fund called Build to Rent, which is about creating new residences that are purpose built as rented accommodation. These new schemes—new blocks or estates—are designed to meet that fundamental purpose in the way they are constructed. Overall, however, although I understand the noble Baroness’s point, I think that average rent rises are running below inflation at the moment, certainly outside London.
Professional Standards Authority
(11 years ago)
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Lord Taverne
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to appoint a scientist to the Professional Standards Authority.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con)
My Lords, the Government have no plans to change the membership of the council of the Professional Standards Authority. The authority is required under the Health and Social Care Act 2012 to set standards for organisations holding voluntary registers for health and social care occupations, and accredits those which meet these standards. It is not required to make a judgment on the beliefs and practices of individuals registered with the organisations that it accredits.
Lord Taverne (LD)
My Lords, the Professional Standards Authority has recently approved the registration of the Complementary and Natural Healthcare Council—which is known in scientific circles, quite justifiably, as Ofquack. It means, in effect, that craniosacral therapists, reflexologists and homeopaths can now claim to be covered by the same professional standards as doctors and nurses. In the past, the Department of Health has sometimes suggested that it will not take sides between evidence-based medicine, which is based on science, and complementary medicine, which is based on pseudo-science. Does the Minister not agree that the Department of Health should not be neutral between sense and nonsense?
Earl Howe
My Lords, it is important to understand that the accreditation scheme that we are talking about does not endorse any particular therapy as effective, and that it makes clear that accreditation does not imply that it has. The principle remains that it is for individuals, in consultation with health practitioners, to decide which therapy is right for them. The scheme is not a form of regulation, nor is the PSA a regulator. It sets standards for organisations holding voluntary registers for health and social care occupations, and accredits those that meet the standards.
Baroness Pitkeathley (Lab)
My Lords, I declare an interest as chair of the Professional Standards Authority, and I pay tribute to the skill and experience of my board. Does the Minister agree that as by next March more than 75 occupations and 100,000 practitioners will be covered by the accredited voluntary register scheme, the public are much better informed and better protected than they have ever been?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness, and I pay tribute to her work as chair of the PSA. The benefits of accredited voluntary registration are clear. The point is to give the public, employers and commissioners choice to use people on a register that the authority has independently assessed and approved, and only those registers that the authority has accredited are allowed to use its kitemark.
Lord Willis of Knaresborough (LD)
My Lords, the 2013 annual report of the Professional Standards Authority states that its third strategic objective is to:
“Enhance public confidence in unregulated health and care occupations”.
How many voluntary registers of healthcare support workers are now registered with the standards authority, how many individual staff do they cover and how can the public get access to them? How long does the Minister expect it to take for all healthcare support workers to be registered, as the recent reports following the Mid Staffs inquiry suggested?
Earl Howe
My Lords, the Francis recommendations made no reference to voluntary registers for healthcare support workers. The broad position is that the PSA has not received any applications from organisations holding voluntary registers for healthcare support workers, and therefore no voluntary registers for healthcare support workers have been approved. As accredited registers are voluntary, I am afraid that the Government are not in a position to predict how long it will take for all healthcare support workers to be registered.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, going back to the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, is the Minister confident that every intervention by a doctor is actually based on robust clinical evidence?
Earl Howe
My Lords, as the noble Lord knows, it is the responsibility of local NHS organisations to make decisions on the commissioning and funding of any healthcare treatments for patients, taking account of issues to do with safety, clinical and cost effectiveness and the availability of appropriate practitioners. However, it is interesting to note that there are a number of complementary and alternative therapies referenced in NICE guidance, and I would expect any self-respecting doctor to take account of those.
Lord Colwyn (Con)
My Lords, can the Minister give us any news about the proposed accreditation of herbal practitioners?
Earl Howe
My Lords, as my noble friend knows, this is a complex policy area. There have been delays to the Government’s original proposals around the regulation of herbal medicine practitioners. One of our main concerns here is to ensure safety for those who wish to use the products. Given that complexity, my honourable friend Dr Poulter announced his intention to set up a working group to consider matters relating to patient protection when using unlicensed manufactured herbal products. Officials are currently working through the details of that group, including its terms of reference.
Lord Laming (CB)
My Lords, will the Minister use his good offices to ensure that the Government continue to keep an open mind in respect of complementary medicines, and allow patients the greatest possible choice in these matters?
Mental Health: Cost of Living Support
(11 years ago)
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Lord Touhig
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that people with mental health problems get the help they need to meet the cost of living.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con)
My Lords, the association between poor mental health and poverty is clear, and it is equally clear that the best way to meet the cost of living is through work. We are committed to improving employment outcomes for people with poor mental health by supporting them to return to, and stay in, work through a combination of tailored work-focused healthcare and employment advice and by ensuring that they are supported equably in the benefit system.
Lord Touhig (Lab)
My Lords, when an alcoholic schizophrenic with mental health problems turned up at St Vincent’s community support in Cwmcarn in south Wales, the person attempting to help her by applying for the new personal independence payment had to answer more than 40 questions in an hour-long telephone conversation with the DWP, simply to get the application form. The helper said she found this very distressing. Without this intervention, this mentally ill penniless woman would be destitute. Is there nothing the Government can do to simplify the way in which people with mental health problems can get the support they need, without enduring this bureaucratic nightmare?
Lord Freud
My Lords, on the process of getting PIP, we have been taking advice from people with an interest, particularly the autism group, which I know the noble Lord will be interested in, and we have been adjusting our PIP application process to reflect the observations and points made by those groups.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, does the Minister accept that if people in those circumstances can find work, fine—but if they cannot, they need all the help they can get to access what they have a right to? Should we not therefore ensure that the citizens advice bureaux, which play a key role in these matters, have the resources they need to help such vulnerable people?
Lord Freud
My Lords, helping people with mental health problems and similar conditions is, clearly, not easy. The main problem is that they face a huge variety of problems. We need to help them as much as we can to negotiate their way through a complicated system. I have taken a huge interest in this issue myself, and in the most important area in this respect. We now have a study on what we are calling psychological well-being and work, to look at how we can help people negotiate their way into the workplace, with adequate health support on the way.
Baroness Knight of Collingtree (Con)
My Lords, is the Minister aware that although people in this category are legally allowed to claim money that will help them get to work if they are able to work, the person allocated to them from the health service to try to give them all the advice they need hardly ever tells them that they can claim money for this purpose? Will he please look at that point?
Lord Freud
My Lords, I will look at that point—but we are making real efforts now to join up the provision by the DWP and by the Department of Health. I am working very closely with Norman Lamb in this area. We have put a lot of effort into signposting, and into training our teams in the DWP and the Work Programme providers, who have put in a toolkit to help. However, I will certainly look into whether I can do more.
Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Lab)
My Lords, will the Minister acknowledge that when dealing with people with complex needs, which include mental health and also usually addiction, expecting them to get back to work within three months is absolutely unrealistic? I know a man who is working exceptionally hard to get ready for work; he volunteers with our organisation. Twice in the past year he has been denied benefit, then a judge at a tribunal and an appeal reinstated it. I heard that this week he has again been denied benefit and that the department is again appealing against what was said. He is doing remarkably well, but this is knocking him day in and day out. If he has to go back into treatment it will cost the Government more. Why do the Government not listen to organisations that are telling them that three months is not long enough?
Lord Freud
My Lords, if the noble Baroness will write to me with the details, I will look into it. We do not have a rigid three-month rule like that, but I will look at the particular circumstance that she is so concerned about.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford) (Con)
My Lords, it is the turn of the Liberal Democrats.
Lord Alderdice
My Lords, in the Health Act there was a recognition of the importance of parity of esteem for physical and mental disturbances. However, of course the treatment of physical and mental disturbances often requires different amounts of time. A short appointment for a physical treatment may not be the right thing for the psychological treatments to which the noble Lord referred. That makes it difficult for people in work both to get the treatment that they need and stay in work. Does the Minister’s department recognise, as the health department does, that parity of esteem may mean extra time and facilities for those with mental disturbances as against those with physical diseases?
Lord Freud
My Lords, that is a vital point, which is why we are introducing the Health and Work Service, particularly to help those who are in danger of falling out of the workplace. Every year 300,000 people do that, and a quarter of those cases are due to mental health issues. We are intervening at the four-week stage to get those people signposted on to the kind of support that they need.
Female Genital Mutilation
(11 years ago)
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Baroness Manzoor
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the report Tackling Female Genital Mutilation in the UK by the Royal College of Nursing.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con)
My Lords, the Government welcome the intercollegiate report Tackling FGM in the UK, which is published this week. Female genital mutilation is illegal. It is important that children and young women are protected from this abhorrent procedure. My honourable friend Jane Ellison has supported the development of this report. As Minister for Public Health, she has stated that one of her priorities is to continue to work towards eradicating female genital mutilation with the organisations that are promoting the report, among many others.
Baroness Manzoor (LD)
I thank the Minister for his reply. Does he welcome, as I do, the proposal that FGM should be treated by healthcare workers as a crime and reported to the police? Does he also welcome the work of the Liberal Democrat Minister, Lynne Featherstone, in prioritising the eradication of FGM in her work in the Department for International Development?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend. Female genital mutilation is child abuse and violence against girls and women. It is also a criminal offence, and cutters and perpetrators need to be brought to justice. I pay tribute to the work currently in train in the Department for International Development, which has begun an ambitious programme to address FGM in Africa and beyond.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford) (Con)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord West, could not see that a Cross-Bencher behind him wanted to speak.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, will the Minister ensure that the police and the Crown Prosecution Service put forward far more appropriate prosecutions?
Earl Howe
My Lords, the Government are as frustrated as I am sure the noble and learned Baroness is by the lack of prosecutions. We welcome the Crown Prosecution Service action plan, published last year with a view to bringing successful prosecutions. The CPS guidance on FGM prosecutions provides a useful framework for prosecutors to understand how to build stronger cases with the police to bring to court. It explains how they need to be aware of the fact that where there is a victim of FGM, the local authority or social services may well have material or information to support that.
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, we have failed thousands of young women. This issue first came above my radar horizon as a Minister in the Home Office when one of my sisters, who was training as a midwife, explained the full horror and scale of FGM. I was completely horrified. I failed in my time in the Home Office to ensure that people were being correctly prosecuted. Since then, we have not done any better. I am glad to hear what is being said, but does the Minister really believe that now we will ensure we have a series of prosecutions? If we do not, we will not stop this vile thing happening.
Earl Howe
I completely agree with the noble Lord. It is clear that we need to make a step change in the landscape here. We have continued to prioritise FGM, both at home and overseas. The intercollegiate report, however, published this week, adds a very welcome dimension to the work we are doing. It was written by health professionals and FGM experts for health professionals, and the Government will naturally study the report very carefully and consider the recommendations as part of the cross-government programme of work to tackle and eradicate this awful practice.
Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that I took through your Lordships’ House the Prohibition of Female Circumcision Act 1985? Is he aware that I, too, am most frustrated by the lack of prosecutions? Why has France convicted people with this horrific condition and not us?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I am aware of that. I was a new Member of the House when that Act went through, and I commend the noble Baroness for the work she did on that issue. She mentioned France. One of the features of the French system is the physical examination of all girls under the age of five. We will not be following that path. We do not think it would be right to do so. We think it raises ethical and human rights concerns. However, all children are routinely seen by healthcare staff in the universal healthy child programme that covers England, and prevention and safeguarding absolutely underpin that programme. It is an important channel for conversations to be held with parents and children, so that they can be provided with relevant support and advice.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)
My Lords, the 1985 Act was updated in Scotland by the Prohibition of Female Genital Mutilation (Scotland) Act 2005. It extended the maximum sentence from five years to 14 years. In Scotland, as in the rest of the UK, there have been no prosecutions. Will the Minister and the Government work closely with the Scottish Government to make sure that we have a unified approach across the UK to ensure that there are prosecutions in the future for this most extreme form of child abuse?
Earl Howe
Yes, my Lords, we work closely with our colleagues in the devolved Administrations. The noble Lord is absolutely right: FGM is a crime in the UK under the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003, and in Scotland under the Prohibition of Female Genital Mutilation (Scotland) Act 2005. I am advised that it is a feature of both Acts that if someone is taken overseas for the mutilation, it is still a crime in the UK if the mutilation is done by a UK national or permanent UK resident.
Lord Chidgey (LD)
My Lords, the UNICEF report released in July sets out that 129 countries practise FGM. Most of those countries—which have 125 million girls—have strong community links with the United Kingdom. Does my noble friend agree that if we are to eliminate FGM on girls in the UK we must work alongside organisations such as Tostan and AWEPA, which are successfully campaigning for the abandonment of FGM throughout rural communities in much of Africa and elsewhere? What liaison is there between government departments in this country to address FGM at home and overseas? There must be some working together here.
Earl Howe
I agree with my noble friend. I referred to the work being done by DfID. The approach of DfID’s programme is to work with communities through civil society organisations in at least 15 of the most affected countries. Developments in FGM abroad tend to change attitudes towards communities here, which is why the Government are confident that the work of DfID will result in culture change and, hopefully, abandonment in both Africa and the UK. I would be happy to write to my noble friend with details of the co-operative work that we are doing.
Business of the House
(11 years ago)
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Lord Hill of Oareford
That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Tuesday 19 November to allow the High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill to be taken through all its remaining stages that day.
Business of the House
(11 years ago)
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Lord Hill of Oareford
That the debate on the motion in the name of Lord Dobbs set down for today shall be limited to 3 hours and that in the name of Lord Faulks to 2 hours.
United Kingdom and China
(11 years ago)
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Lord Dobbs
To move that this House takes note of the recent developments in the relationship between the United Kingdom and China.
Lord Dobbs (Con)
My Lords, I first express my appreciation to the House and its authorities for the opportunity to promote the debate—and, indeed, to all noble Lords who are here today. It is also a very pleasant duty to extend a warm welcome to the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, and the noble Lord, Lord Whitby, both of whom will be gracing the debate with their maiden speeches. On behalf of us all, I wish them nothing but fulfilment during their time in this place. I also declare my interest as a board member of Conservative Friends of the Chinese, but I do not wish to turn this into a partisan debate. It has been too long since we had the chance to debate these hugely important issues.
China is the world’s most populous country, with one-fifth of all humanity’s children, the second biggest economy on the planet and the largest standing army. We keep talking about Chinas as an emerging nation, but China is not emerging: she has already arrived, an ever-strengthening wind in our world. My own interest in China dates from my doctoral studies at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy in the 1970s when China was in the throes of the Maoist madness that killed, murdered and even starved to death tens of millions of Chinese. China today is unrecognisable as that delta of misery which flooded into the Yellow Sea. The first thing I do, therefore, is offer my unstinting congratulations to the people and the Government of China for the enormous strides that they have taken since then.
Britain’s relations with China are long-standing, although they have not always been good. Our imperial past has left many scars; the Chinese still remember. However, both our worlds have moved on since those inauspicious days. Our economic ties have expanded enormously. In the past three years, British exports to China have doubled, although they are still less than those of France, way behind Germany and only a squeak more than Italy. Our trade deficit with China is far larger than those of our European neighbours. On the other hand, our financial services industry is a world leader. The plans to turn London into a major hub for renminbi dealing are truly exciting. What draws so much attention is the flow of Chinese investment into Britain. It includes investment into Heathrow and Manchester airports, our new nuclear power plants, the Lloyds building, the Royal Albert Dock, Thames Water, good old Weetabix, our next-generation telephone and broadband systems, and even London’s traditional black cabs. It is an arrangement of mutual advantage: they send us cuddly pandas and, in return, we send them Boris.
If we intend to strengthen our economic links with China, as we should, we need to give attention to many areas. I will highlight three. The first is that of visas. In the past three years, the Government have been making it easier for Chinese businessmen and tourists to come to Britain. All the required paperwork is now available in Mandarin, making the process of getting a visa much less onerous. George Osborne, in his remarkable trip to Beijing last month, promised even further improvements. We must, however, put those promises into action. Seven times as many Chinese visitors go to France as to Britain. There is more to be done.
My second point relates to our air links. We are going to have to work a lot harder to make sure we are competitive with the rest of Europe. We wring our hands about whether it should be Boris Island, Heathrow’s third runway, Stansted or Birmingham—yet, while we argue rather than implement, the Chinese just get on with it and increasingly fly to mainland Europe. We have been awful at our planning of airports policy. We need to get much better, and very quickly.
Thirdly, I will say a few words about education—that vital bridge not just between businesses but between cultures. We are by far the most popular destination in Europe for Chinese students and the third most popular in the world after the United States and Australia, yet we do far too little in return. At state-school level, only a tiny fraction of pupils are offered any education in Mandarin. The situation is improving, but far too slowly. At university level, we have only around 400 graduates a year who get any training in Chinese. The situation at postgraduate level is even more challenging. The British Association for Chinese Studies reports that, in the past four years, Britain has produced only 13 doctoral students covering all Asian studies—all Asian studies, not just Chinese studies. Noble Lords might be interested to know that the comparable figure for Celtic studies is 19. As delighted as I am that we rejoice in our Celtic roots, I think we need to dig rather deeper than that.
There are those who are fearful of our growing contacts. They are worried about the extent of Chinese hacking and industrial espionage, the theft of intellectual property, the inadequacies of Chinese commercial law, and the corruption that is endemic. There is no point in pretending that everything is as it should be. We still need to do business with not only our wallets but our eyes open.
Our relations with China stretch far wider than trade and commerce. The continued progress of China is key to the stability of the rest of the world, and she faces huge domestic challenges. China has the most rapidly ageing population in the world. Her workforce is about to start shrinking rapidly. The failures of the one-child policy are coming home to roost. It is said of China that she will be old before she is rich. Like so much of Asia, China is desperately short of energy and raw materials. However, her biggest challenge is perhaps the shortage of water. Much of it is polluted, unsuitable not simply for human use but even for agriculture and industry. I will give one statistic. The water table in Beijing has dropped 300 metres—a full 1,000 feet—since the 1970s. All this matters to us because China is far too large a part of our world to be ignored.
When China sneezes, the rest of the world catches cold. We talk glibly about China being monolithic—one country politically, economically and geographically—but that can be hugely misleading. China is confronted by immense internal challenges, and many observers believe that the most significant story of the next 20 years will not be the story of her inexorable rise but of her growing domestic problems. There will be rifts between the generations, the regions, the religions, the haves and have-nots, the literally wets and dries, between opposing ideas and conflicting needs.
The country’s interior is still one of the most backward parts of the planet. Some 400 million Chinese are desperately impoverished and have gained nothing from the great economic awakening. It is said that a rising tide will float every boat, but what happens when the water runs out? There are also ongoing and deep-seated concerns about human rights—of which I suspect we will hear more in this debate.
Of course, there is a new leadership in Beijing. From the speeches of Xi Jinping and Li Keqiang, it is clear that they understand the magnitude of the challenge they face. We should wish them well, for China at discord could be no friend of the West, let alone a partner in our future prosperity. This is where I want to leave my personal mark on this debate. Although in many eyes the rise of China is a threat to the West, I argue that the greatest threat comes not from China’s expansion but from the possibility of her implosion. That would cast a shadow over the world so intense that it would propel us into an ice age that would make our recent economic troubles seem like an outing on an iceberg. To borrow a phrase from Henry Kissinger’s recent book on China,
“no issue preoccupies Chinese leaders more than the preservation of national unity”.
To understand that point is to understand much about current Chinese policy.
If we criticise Chinese inflexibility towards Tibet, for instance, we should at least understand their genuine fear that unrest in Tibet will be followed by upheaval in Xixiang and other border regions, and then perhaps throughout the entire country. To some, it is an extraordinary concept that China could be a vulnerable member of the international community. It is a particularly odd idea when we see China becoming more assertive. She has border disputes with Japan, India, Vietnam and the Philippines. Her army is mighty and she is flexing her muscles. American academics talk of a new cold war as the United States pivots away from Europe and towards Asia, and as China increasingly joins forces with Russia. The seeds for future conflict exist; they could all too easily be sown.
Yet, inevitably, and happily, there is another side to all this. China has shown little appetite for external aggression. Many of these border issues are left over from the centuries of humiliation, and many of the disputes are about rocks and oil and, in the long tradition of Asian politics, about face. Very often the Chinese have found an accommodation. For instance, many feared that Hong Kong would be destroyed after it was handed back, but Beijing has been true to its word and handled our former colony rather like a precious Ming vase. We should not blind ourselves or be complacent; we must realise that the growth of China will inevitably create the need for change. Through that, it will create also the potential for conflict. She is already developing a more assertive foreign policy; she will insist on being involved in a dialogue over the future not just of border regions such as North Korea and Pakistan but of places further afield, such as Syria—as we have seen—the wider Middle East and Africa. The tectonic plates of our world are shifting.
But this is not a zero-sum game in which they win and we lose. We have our differences, but we also both have an overriding interest in stability. We need to develop a strategy of engagement with China—engagement, not appeasement—that is capable of recognising China’s legitimate requirements, making them compatible with our own and finding common purpose in the search for stability. We need to show an open hand rather than a narrow mind.
Britain has a huge amount to offer China in this process of change. It is not simply the economic stuff but our goods and financial services, our expertise in health care and our great creativity. We even have our history to offer. Britain was an exception to the rule that industrial revolution is inevitably followed by political revolution. All across Europe, crowns tumbled and thrones were toppled while, in Britain, we kept our traditions and our political system remained largely intact. China would like to learn from that example. It is perhaps ironic that the reflections of Edmund Burke on the proper order of things are probably read more widely in China than they are in Britain.
There is no need to be overawed on account of our much smaller size. Of course, Beijing had a brilliant Olympics; but, when it came to our turn, it was not just Mo Farah who showed the rest of the world a clean pair of heels; it was our entire country. It was Britain at her best.
Our traditions, our culture, our great British brand, our willingness to be open for business, the recent increase in British diplomatic staff in China, our top-level government visits—all of these, and many more, put us in an exceptional position to form fruitful partnerships with China. There is more to do, of course, but, if a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step, the well of happiness starts being filled with the first drop of understanding.
The red eye of the digital dragon is staring at me, so I must wind up. I apologise for trying to cover hundreds of years of history and billions of pounds’ worth of interests in a single gallop. It has been a privilege of introduce this debate; now it will be my pleasure to listen and to learn.
Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe (Lab)
My Lords, I read the enormously encouraging reports of the Chancellor’s recent visit to China, and the serendipitously timed special China edition of The House Magazine indicating how much the Government are doing, so I hope that the Minister, in replying to this debate, will seek to be equally positive in his response to noble Lords’ questions today.
I want to focus my remarks on the strength of the relationship between universities in Britain and China. In doing so, I declare an interest as a member of the Council of University College London which has, itself, extensive links with China. This House has, on many occasions, debated the importance of universities’ international links to the UK economy. We know that international students in higher education contribute about £10 billion a year to the UK economy, and that universities have been frustrated by the apparent failure of the Government to understand fully the opportunities and competitive threats they face in this sphere.
I exempt the Minister from this, because he, as much as anyone in the Government, has sought to point out these opportunities and support universities in their international activities. He has taken a more nuanced approach to visa policy, which recognises the value of international students and higher education trade links. In view of his forthcoming retirement from the Front Bench, I should like to take this opportunity to congratulate him on the part he has played in this and perhaps also take the opportunity to wish him a happy birthday.
The strength and depth of UK university engagement with China is already considerable. We have heard from other noble Lords about some of the partnerships and joint ventures between UK universities and their Chinese counterparts. My university, UCL, has built close collaborative links with the Chinese Academy of Sciences and has, for example, developed the concept of a joint science and innovation platform. It has become evident that academic-industrial partnerships in China can enhance relevance, trust and impact of collaboration, thus increasing trade volume and sustainability.
The demand for higher education in China is staggering and the pace of expansion is difficult to comprehend. But the focus of university partnerships is on research links and innovation as well as teaching. For example, the Innovation UK China partnership brings together five UK and 20 Chinese universities to promote joint innovation, knowledge transfer and commercialisation of intellectual property. I hope that the Minister will urge UK universities to work in concert to attract the very best talent from China for training, exchange and collaborative work. Currently, the UK attracts fewer of the very best students from China than does the US. The UK receives 70% of the number of Chinese students compared with the US, but produces only 20% of high quality, joint publications. Will the Minister look into joint scholarships for top talent with the China Scholarship Council to attract the best young people from both our countries? Meanwhile, the UK-China Partners in Education programme focuses on promoting the exchange of students between the two countries, supports vocational education, raises school standards and aims to encourage more UK pupils to learn Mandarin.
These links and partnerships put the UK in an excellent position to foster close and productive links which will provide enormous long-term benefits to both countries. The UK is in a leading position and we should do all we can to preserve it. The opportunities are considerable, but this is not just about money. We have an opportunity to play a role in shaping the future leaders of China. Universities are acutely aware of the ethical challenge of partnership and investment in a country where corruption and the abuse of human rights remain stubborn features. Does the Minister believe that the UK Government should give advice and support to UK universities as they look to build on their engagement in China? How can we help them avoid the pitfalls of investment and partnerships which could compromise their own ethical standards?
I turn to the well worn subject of international students. The Government often point to the recent rapid growth in numbers of students from China as evidence that there is no problem with the competitive position of UK universities internationally. They should not be so complacent. This rapid growth masks a 3% decrease in non-EU students from other countries. The strong representation of Chinese students on UK university campuses is welcome, adding enormously to the experience of UK students but, privately, some universities worry about the extent of our reliance on one country, particularly given recent evidence of how volatile the international student market can be. You have only to look at our second largest source of international students—India—to see what the problem is. The number of students from India fell by 32% in 2011-12. That has particularly hit engineering, technology and computer science departments and has played a large role in the decrease in postgraduate taught enrolments. India has strong, active media which pick up the negative political rhetoric and increasing visa hurdles in the UK to an amazing extent. This is, for now, less true of China, but the growth of social media is changing that.
Meanwhile, competition is intensifying, particularly from Australia, which is back from the brink following its own experiment in tightening visa rules. If we want to preserve our position, we need the Government to stop being complacent about the UK’s international competitiveness and change visa policy to reflect the value that a diverse and growing international student body brings to the UK. Therefore, will the Minister say whether he will continue to argue for a favourable visa policy? This House will shortly debate the Immigration Bill, which contains yet more provisions likely to deter international students. I hope that the Minister will commit to finding ways to minimise the impact of that Bill on universities. In anticipation of the Prime Minister’s forthcoming visit to China, will he undertake to work with universities to increase opportunities for UK students to study in China, for example, by supporting a postgraduate scholarship programme on behalf of the UK? Finally, will he ask the Home Secretary to look again at the detailed university enrolment figures and reconsider the inclusion of students in the net migration target?
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, I first declare my interests as deputy chair of the All-Party China Group, a partner of DLA Piper and chair of its China desk, a former member of Huawei’s international advisory council and a council member of UCL. It is with great pleasure that I follow the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, as I agree almost entirely with her comments, derived from her expert knowledge of the higher education sector.
I warmly congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, on initiating this debate. He set out the issues extremely well. I look forward to hearing our two maiden speakers later in the debate. I also look forward to the winding-up speech of my noble friend Lord Green who has been such a great champion of trade with China during his time as Trade Minister. We will be sad to see him go.
This debate is extremely timely. We have the opening of the EU-China trade negotiations on 21 November; on Friday we have the very significant opening of the third plenum in China; it comes in the aftermath of a whole series of official visits last month, including the so-called “yin and yang” Boris and Osborne visits and we have the visit of the Prime Minister later on this year or at the beginning of the next. It is noticeable that, despite the hitherto frosty relations with the new Chinese leadership in the 18 months running up to those ministerial visits, major inward Chinese investment has been at record levels over the past year. We are now the top European destination for Chinese inward investment and the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, mentioned a number of those very significant inward investment levels. In that period, record levels of trade have also been set between China and the UK: in April this year, Britain’s monthly exports to China hit the £1 billion level for the first time. As we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, we also have an agreement on renminbi trading in London, which will be of considerable significance.
I have made 30 or so visits to mainland China over the years. Having accompanied my noble friend Lord Sassoon, the new chairman of the CBBC, in his recent handover visit in September and taken part, last month, in a visit to Shanghai by the China All-Party Group, I am absolutely convinced that the prospects for trade and investment both ways between China and the UK are now better than they have ever been. This partly derives from the Chinese Government’s 12th five-year plan which involves a comprehensive strategy towards a more consumer-led economy: a more environmental and energy-conscious economy where the services—insurance, pensions, health and education—and the private sector become much more important, especially with China’s rising middle class.
This is, of course, not to say that China does not have major challenges to overcome, which all impact on the overriding Chinese public policy: the need for stability. The noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, set all these out extremely well. However, both the plan and the challenges give us substantial opportunities here in the UK. The all-party group visit last month gave me considerable reason to believe that we can take advantage of some of the welcome new initiatives such as the Shanghai pilot free trade zone and the Qianhai special economic zone, particularly in the provision of professional, financial and consulting services.
We also have a great deal to contribute in our creative industries. As we know, Britain has a great reputation—particularly following last year’s Olympics—in architecture, design, fashion, film, animation, games, television, advertising, publishing and music. We have a great opportunity for creative and artistic partnership between China and the UK, typified by the success of Thomas Heatherwick’s UK pavilion at the Shanghai Expo in 2010. In the automotive field, brands such as Jaguar and Bentley are experiencing record success. In fact, JLR’s sales in China are now higher than they are in the UK. China is leapfrogging the West in many areas of environmental sustainability. Its need for green growth provides an important market for UK goods and services.
In all this, as the all-party group heard from a whole variety of successful and well established British companies in Shanghai, we need to stay ahead of the game if we wish to compete effectively in China. China is increasingly moving from licensing western intellectual property, know-how and technology to developing its own, so British companies need to keep innovating to stay successful. We also need to focus on those areas where we can demonstrate efficiencies and better use of resources. However, for our trade and investment to keep forging ahead, we need SMEs to have greater self-confidence in entering the Chinese market. We really do need to get this message home to UK SMEs and help them with expert advisory services through UKTI, chambers of commerce and trade bodies and, especially, through local authorities. There is no doubt, for instance, that setting up close twinning relationships between Chinese and UK towns and cities can be of great benefit to business, if done in the right way. I am currently reading an interesting study, recently published by Carl-Johan Carlstedt and Christopher Georgiou on twinning opportunities, which will work if we get the structures of our local government right. However, there is often an imbalance between the Chinese and UK twinning partners. Consider the different population sizes of Shanghai and Liverpool. Whether we have local enterprise partnerships or some of the new initiatives that are being taken, we need to make sure that our structures are suitably matched when we are twinning with Chinese cities.
Quite apart from the value in itself of building bridges, we need to build bridges in areas such as education and tourism. We need visitors to this country to experience what Britain is like, which will help them to create those links that are often of great benefit for business. I am thinking in particular of the alumni programmes that some of our universities are putting in place with Chinese students, whether as undergraduates or postgraduates.
That brings me finally to the question of visas, mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick. We need to get our visa regime right. We need to give out the right signals to Chinese students by excluding them from the migration figures. I have no doubt that during the course of this debate we will hear further on that subject.
Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)
My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Dobbs on his extremely eloquent opening to this important debate, and I look forward greatly to the two maiden speeches to come.
I am going to suggest that the main focus of our concerns should be not just on the straightforward bilateral relationship between the UK and China, and not just at governmental level—although that context is extremely important. However, the plain fact is that China now operates all around the world in a polycentric manner, and our interface with Chinese activity and development needs also to be polycentric, not just at government level but at all the soft-power levels, between people, professions and organisations—and particularly in education, which is why the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, was so valid. Educational links are extremely important at every level, including right down to primary level, at which connections can be made via the internet every morning.
On the economic side, China is now the main trading partner of many of the most influential economies in both the developed and so-called developing world. As the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, reminded us, those adjectives are rather out of date. China has become the most sought-after source of capital. Countries, including ours, do not just wait for China to come calling but actively seek out and court Chinese investment. China now funds foreign Governments, underwrites or donates schools and hospitals, and pays for and constructs massive infrastructure projects throughout several continents. That often makes China, for the recipient country, a considerably more attractive and easier investor to deal with than the World Bank.
China has a major impact on both west and east Africa. On the European scene, the Chinese are active in Warsaw and other capitals in working out how to develop shale gas, among other resources. They are very active in Latin America and Australia—with which they now have a huge trading partnership—and throughout the Indian sub-continent, particularly in Pakistan and Myanmar. The Chinese are building a colossal base at Gwadar in Pakistan and huge ports at Chittagong in Bangladesh and Hambantota in Sri Lanka. I say almost in passing that they are sending to the next Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting in Colombo next week 100 delegates in order to involve themselves in business in that region. It sometimes seems as if the Indian Ocean, rather than the Atlantic Ocean, is becoming the main area of a new pattern and centre of world trade. Indeed, it is forming itself into a sort of maritime version of the old Silk Road—although that, too, is very active.
On the financial side, China now purchases global resources in such huge volumes that it has become the commodity price setter and key influence on markets. It is feeling its way to establishing the renminbi as a rival currency to the dollar, experimenting in Hong Kong and now coming into London, which is extremely welcome and good for us—as long as there is no discrimination with other foreign banks in the City of London. China has a stockpile of $3.5 trillion in foreign currency reserves. These are enormous figures.
On the energy and climate side, China’s appetite for energy resources and its own path towards a new energy pattern will frankly be decisive on all of us, regardless of our own policies. It is the world’s biggest coal importer, the world’s biggest oil importer and the world’s biggest emitter of carbon dioxide. It is building rows and rows of new coal-fired stations—not necessarily CCS-enabled, but very much more efficient than the old ones—and a large number of new nuclear stations. It has massive wind farm investments, although I put “investments” in inverted commas because there is not much evidence that they are paying their way or even being used; however, they are on a very large scale. It is buying up oil, gas and coal concessions around the world. It claims, so the Energy Minister there told me, to have more shale gas than the United States; but I am told that the geology is difficult and there is the problem, to which my noble friend Lord Dobbs rightly drew attention, that it may lack adequate water resources. On the nuclear side, of course, China will now be involved in our own nuclear fleet replacement programme, beginning with Hinkley Point, although I shall feel a bit more reassured when I see the money actually arrive.
On the social and political side, Chinese aid and investment around the world help development, but in some cases they bolster despotic regimes and aid states bent on violence and anti-democratic programmes. We need to show the Chinese, in our dialogue with them, that those moves are against their own interests. They affect the great cities of China just as much as they affect our country.
On the international and foreign policy side, China wants to be a world power of a kind, but if it is to be one, it will have to accept responsibilities at a greater level than hitherto on the global stage. After all, it imports 50% of its oil from Iran and Saudi Arabia, but one has to ask just where China is on Middle East issues, on Iran’s nuclear issue and on Syria and chemical weapons. Quite often, the Chinese seem outright detached or just negative.
China has limited territorial expansion plans. As we know, it regards Tibet and Taiwan as unquestionably part of China. It does, however, allow Hong Kong amazing freedom, including its own currency and representation in international bodies including parts of the Commonwealth, which is all very good for us in the UK. China is now aggressive towards Japan, which is regrettable; their two countries are vastly interwoven in trade terms and together add up to about 18% of the world’s GNP, so it is utterly in our interest to see that they settle quarrels like the Senkaku Islands. Moreover, China is still very prickly on questions of human rights and governance values.
We can work with this fantastic worldwide spread of activity; we can work with it constructively and we can advise about involvement in Africa, perhaps leading to a rather happier course because of our long experience. When I speak to my Chinese friends, they say, “Well, we are very big—a billion or more in population”. I tell them that we are very big as well; we are the Commonwealth with 2 billion or more and therefore we can speak to each other on equal terms. We should do that.
Baroness Valentine (CB)
Our economic relationship with China is often presented in terms of imports and exports. However, as chief executive of London First—a business membership organisation that helped to create the UK China Visa Alliance—I know that this fails to capture the extent of the connection. Many UK organisations do business with China in less obvious ways. Arup is advising on construction projects, Prospects is helping Chinese entrepreneurs to set up English language schools, universities such as UCL, as we heard earlier, are opening Far Eastern campuses so that Chinese students can benefit from our world-class education and, of course, as the Minister well knows, Hong Kong is a thriving financial centre with strong links to the UK through our historic association. London is the lead location for Chinese investment, while in Manchester the £800 million cash injection into “Airport City” by a Beijing investor will make it one of the country’s biggest construction projects since the Olympic Park.
But there remain barriers to our economic relationship, and I follow the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, by zeroing in on the issues of tourist visas and air links. Before I do so, I add my plea to those of previous speakers for the Government to remove students from the net migration target. The UK is unlikely to become a member of Schengen any time soon. The unwelcome consequence of remaining outside is that would-be visitors to Europe can visit 26 countries on one visa but have to apply for an additional visa to include the UK on their trip. On top of that, we require them to supply fingerprints, which can mean a round trip of up to 600 miles to one of our application centres. It is small wonder that five times as many Chinese hit the shops on the Champs-Élysées as empty their wallets in the West End. The problem is not that we turn down too many applications, but that not enough potential visitors apply in the first place. The growing Chinese middle class makes up the world’s most valuable and expanding tourist market. Chinese visitors spend more than 60% of their travel budget on shopping, and last year they overtook American shoppers as the world’s biggest purchasers of luxury goods, accounting for 25% of the world market.
To give them credit, the Government are moving in the right direction. Recently they announced a pilot scheme under which some visitors will have to fill in only one form for the two visas. Next year, we expect the Schengen countries to start demanding fingerprints as well, which levels the playing field in one respect, although it is probable that this will make it even less likely that the Chinese will want to go through the hassle twice. I encourage the Government to go further by extending the shared application process to all travellers, and ultimately to collocate visa centres with those of other Schengen countries so that the entire process can be as seamless as possible for our potential high-spending visitors. While on the subject of border enforcement, I also urge the Government to look at reducing immigration queue times at airports. After a long flight, a target queue time of three-quarters of an hour is hardly a welcome.
That leads me neatly on to my next subject. Armed with a visa we need, physically, to get the Chinese to Britain. I do not need to reiterate that the UK is falling behind European competitors in its air connectivity to emerging and high-growth economies. Despite being one of the busiest hub airports in the world, Heathrow is an especially weak link to China. In fact, China is one of the destinations that globally are most frequently accessed from a hub outside the UK. On the other hand, by 2015, China will have spent four years building 82 new airports. We in the UK will be awaiting recommendations that may or may not enable us to build just one new runway in 10 years’ time. How confident is the Minister that when those 82 airports have been built, all those potential flights to the UK will have somewhere to land?
Perhaps I may end by dedicating a limerick to the Secretary of State for Transport and the Home Secretary:
A man on a flight from Shanghai
Found himself wondering why
With just one Schengen visa
He’d see Paris and Pisa
But London, he’d have to pass by.
Lord Kirkham (Con)
My Lords, most of us as consumers or indeed as retailers—a job which I have been doing for over 45 years—have benefited massively from the awesome Chinese economic miracle. The world economy is underpinned by low-cost, high-quality, great-value goods made in China, from kids’ toys to sex toys, from machine tools to motor cars, including 90% of the world’s personal computers, 50% of the world’s ships and 70% of the cell phones. We in the West comfort ourselves with the thought that it is all due to the Far East’s “low-cost” economy, but I venture to suggest that this is not entirely true. I say that not from knowledge derived from reading books, academic research, trawling the internet or taking a brief for this debate but rather from direct, on-the-ground personal experience of transacting business with Chinese companies since 2000. From that I can tell you without caveat or reservation that China is a massively innovative society with a truly phenomenal work ethic, an absolutely determined “can do and will do” attitude and culture and a real commitment to self-improvement.
China’s ascendancy in the global economy is no fluke. When upwardly mobile Chinese acquire surplus renminbi, their first thought is not to study brochures for foreign holidays or flash cars—although China is the biggest and fastest-growing new car market in the world, with almost 20 million vehicles sold last year—no, their priority is to invest in their children's education. That is a bit of good news for us here in the UK because we host around 120,000 or 130,000 fee-paying Chinese students in our colleges. If we did not play so hard to get or make it so hard to get here, there might be even more Chinese participating in that part of our knowledge economy.
The China to which I was introduced a short time ago at the turn of the millennium has entirely vanished. It did so in just 10 years—although we are talking 10 Chinese years, which seems equivalent to about 100 years of development anywhere else on the planet. New China is on track to be the world’s largest economy very soon. The country has evolved at an incredible pace, segueing seamlessly into “brand China”. In 2008, “brand China” gave us the world's biggest and best Olympic Games, arguably until 2012, with its iconic and undeniably brilliant Bird’s Nest stadium and a phenomenal, never-to-be-forgotten opening ceremony. This was a “set the bar” launch advertisement for the brand.
With construction everywhere, China has developed. Just look at the city of Shanghai with its 24 million inhabitants. It has been developed into the Paris of the East: fashionable, stylish, exotic and exciting with its fine stores, restaurants, hotels, houses and apartments. That tremendous civilised backdrop is conducive to networking and transacting business, which is the lifeblood of China. It seems odd and sad that it takes a visit to a nominally communist country to see old-fashioned enterprise in action, enterprise that, through its unstinting investment in infrastructure, has provided tens of thousands of kilometres of highways and expressways and its own high-speed rail network, to support, facilitate and power China's stellar growth. The Beijing to Guangzhou high-speed rail line is the world's longest high-speed line at 2,300 kilometres. It was built in only seven years.
On the topic of railways, when I visited China recently, I was taking the incredible maglev train—that is the magnetic levitation train, no clickety-click metal rails there—from Pudong airport to Shanghai, an eight-minute journey reaching an incredible 431 kilometres per hour. That is around 260 miles per hour. Be assured it was not just low-cost labour that built that space-age mode of transport. It was a real commitment to innovation and the guts to give it a go. It is worth comparing and contrasting that with the umpteen years it has taken us to upgrade our west coast line to achieve half that speed.
China is an unstoppable good news phenomenon: a sophisticated, global-scale investor, exporter, importer and manufacturer of nano-tech, high-tech, low-tech, no-tech, cutting edge mega-demand products. From eyewear to iPhones, China is the class act powering the world's consumerism. In the UK we need to try better to understand the re-emerging—or re-emerged—power that is China, whatever it takes us to do so. We have got to become closer to the world's fastest growing major economy. We must actively and unashamedly encourage Chinese investment, investors, consumers and tourists, welcoming them with open arms. We must make the UK a ravishingly attractive destination, dismantling without delay every conceivable, perceived or real barrier and hurdle to transacting business. We must strengthen established ties and forge the strongest possible trade links. We must act like a friend. Indeed, we must be a friend. Let us not—even remotely—be tentative and ambiguous about it.
We are a trading nation open for business, and the modern-ancient civilisation that is China can make or break us. China's future mega-growth and success will of course create frustrations, stresses and strains, hiccups and bubbles, upsets and challenges. It is already happening. However, be assured that China's global business and influence is only going one way in the long term, and that is up. That is going to present boundless trade and business opportunities impossible to overstate. We in the UK need to ensure that we are at the party and on the top table, sharing in the fun of success with this ambitious, determined and booming country that dominates global manufacturing, is on the lookout for safe investment, and has an enormous and growing domestic market for goods and services.
A spokesman on China Central Television recently suggested that the UK needs China more than China needs the UK. The colloquial term “no-brainer” comes to mind. Almost every country in the world is courting the Chinese in the hope that it will become China's new best friend, the first choice as a business partner and a place to invest. It is imperative for the future prosperity of the UK that we treat this challenge with the same seriousness that we take participation in the Olympics, and ensure that we come first to mind as the natural business, trading and investment partner for our good friends in the East. We have some catching up to do.
The Lord Bishop of Guildford
My Lords, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham deeply regrets that he cannot be in his place today. He is the envoy of the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury in relation to China. I am sorry that he is not here speaking, and not only because I am speaking in his place.
We are hearing, and shall continue to hear, many fascinating things in this debate about China, not least from the two maiden speeches, to which we look forward. The importance of student academic exchanges, stressed by some noble Lords, particularly resonates with me. I declare an interest in the University of Surrey with its developing—indeed burgeoning—links with China. That is wonderful.
I begin with the recent comment by Aaqil Ahmed of the BBC on British religious illiteracy. I make a plea for attentiveness to the religious and philosophical, not least Confucian, history of China, without which we shall not be able to understand China today or tomorrow, in all its bewildering and bedazzling complexity. As a metaphor for this bedazzlement, we might consider the current exhibition of Chinese painting at the V&A, which the Foreign Office Minister opened a few days ago, or cast our minds back to the exhibition at the Royal Academy which coincided with the Chinese state visit of 2005, and displayed wonderful artefacts of the Manchu emperors. Just as those paintings and artefacts are of bedazzling complexity and subtlety, so is China’s relationship with western religion and philosophy, and with Christianity in particular.
When Marco Polo visited Kubla Khan in the 13th century, he found to his surprise, in and around Nanjing, ancient Christian communities originating from Syriac-speaking eastern Christianity, probably from the seventh, or maybe the fifth or sixth century, along the Silk Road, following the economic tracks of the world. At a later date, there is an extraordinary monument to a Christian bishop from the so-called Nestorian Church of China from that early period. The combination of Christianity and China is not something new.
In, the 17th century, the Jesuit Matteo Ricci settled in China for many years, and accommodated his little community to Mandarin culture. By his time those earlier traces of Christian communities had almost disappeared. He experimented boldly with a Confucian interpretation of the Catholic faith. In the end, he was not supported by Rome. If noble Lords want a fascinating account of a dialogue between western philosophy and culture and Mandarin culture in that period, Cambridge historian Mary Laven’s book on Ricci’s mission to China is a very good way in. The stories of various 19th-century Protestant missions to China are much better known. They have their heroes and their heroines but I will not take time on that this afternoon in your Lordships’ House.
My point is that any understanding of the interrelationship between this country and China needs to take into account religious and philosophical dimensions that go back many centuries. Today, the Church of England, largely through the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury, is building, as best it can, good relations with the China Christian Council. Elder Fu Xianwei attended the most reverend Primate’s inauguration earlier this year and, in a long personal conversation afterwards, invited him to China. I have no doubt that, at some stage, the most reverend Primate will accept that invitation and implement it.
The exponential growth of Christianity in China, especially in the growing eastern cities, is not well known here. There are huge numbers of practising Christians in China, amounting to many tens of millions, although I agree that the exact figure is very hard to determine. They operate largely—to use western language—in non-denominational church structures: roughly speaking, independent congregations in loose federations. The Chinese Government have a close interest in how religion helps in building a harmonious society, now that communism is not the only player in China’s major global role. Here, I particularly single out the work of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences in Beijing.
The churches, as they noted at the most recent National Chinese Christian Congress, in September, are also making a major priority of international relations. Here is an opportunity for British churches to respond to this as we all give China the attention it certainly deserves. Co-operation is also developing over theological education, especially at the national theological college in Nanjing and with the Amity Foundation, in its work with the poor in rural regions. Amity Printing Presses, in conjunction with the International Bible Society, has produced 20 million copies of the Bible in Mandarin in recent years.
When Matteo Ricci went to China four centuries ago, he took, as a present from the Pope of the day, a chronometer that also showed the movements of the solar system—a wonderful example of western scientific craftsmanship, which made more accurate calculations than the Chinese astronomers and mathematicians could make at the time. However, Matteo Ricci discovered in return the riches of a deep and wonderful culture. This whole debate is about the exchange of religious, philosophical, economic and cultural gifts, et cetera. My plea is that, amid such a rich exchange of gifts, we do not forget to show proper attentiveness to the religious, philosophical and cultural traditions of China and our own country, and their part in what will happen as we further develop our relationship with China.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
My Lords, it is a great honour to address this House for the first time. It is perhaps unwise to take the plunge so early, but I could not resist the temptation of talking about China. This is a momentous occasion for me, so I would like to begin by saying thank you. First, I thank my noble friend Lord Dobbs for securing this timely debate and for his fascinating contribution. I have been given the warmest of welcomes by all Members and by the excellent House staff. They are courteous, they are helpful and they are always right. I especially enjoyed the wisdom of the finance department, which warned me to beware of advice from other Members on the sensitive subject of allowances. I thank my sponsors—my noble friend Lord Inglewood and the noble Baroness, Lady Hogg—and my former colleagues from the Civil Service and from Tesco. I congratulate my fellow juvenile, my noble friend Lord Whitby.
I was brought up on a Wiltshire farm, a small business which gave me a love of the countryside and some understanding of the difficulties of the sector. I went to Somerville, Oxford, like one of my inspirations, Lady Thatcher, and I am now an honorary fellow. In Whitehall, I had relatively little engagement with China, as it was yet to become the economic behemoth that it is now. However, in my 15 years at Tesco, China was one of our key growth markets and I visited it frequently.
China is an extraordinary country, as other noble Lords have said, which of course has the largest number of consumers in the world. It will comfortably meet its 7.5% growth target for 2013 and is expected to be the world’s biggest economy in under five years, with an enormous impact across the globe, as my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford has shown.
I would like to give some brief reflections on what I have learnt about China as an executive at Tesco and former vice-chairman of the China-Britain Business Council. This unique body, now led by my noble friend Lord Sassoon, and so well supported by the Minister, celebrates its 60th year in 2014. The visit of the Prime Minister in 2010, which I was lucky enough to join, and the recent follow-up by the Chancellor have greatly helped to push things along in a favourable direction.
My first point is that UK and Chinese interests can be complementary and that trade is a natural area of collaboration. Even in the 19th century, companies such as HSBC and Jardines built up trading conglomerates and, indeed, cultural links that are still important today. We know from the 2011-2015 five-year plan that China is gradually trying to move its economy from investment to consumption. Its economy has been very unbalanced and, given our recent reliance on the service sector, it is a great opportunity to build lasting export links for British manufacturers.
The area I know is consumer goods, which is a good example. Chinese consumers are hungry for brands such as our own British success story, Burberry. There is a huge opportunity for some of our great shopkeepers, with Boots, Mothercare, B&Q, Paul Smith and Tesco all flying the flag there. I was also involved in seminars with MOFCOM, the Commerce Ministry, on the transfer of climate change-related innovation. China of course has a history of flooding and famine; pollution is evident in the orange skies above Beijing and other eastern cities. So there is a huge opportunity for exporting UK expertise on green building, pollution control and carbon-friendly refrigeration. Conversely, there is a wonderful opportunity for the Chinese to invest in the UK and I was gratified to see the announcements last month about Manchester Airport and Hinkley Point.
I have done business in many countries and I believe that Britain is the country that is now most open for business. For the overseas investor, it is easier to set up and get through the necessary red tape here than in pretty well any other country in the world. Traditionally, there have been visa impediments to Chinese investors and I am so glad to see that the Government are now tackling those. However, we should expect China to reciprocate and the Chinese to be equally welcoming. So far, this has not always been the case with proposed UK investments in China.
My second theme is: “Think local”. Working in Asia is very different from working in Europe and especially from working in America. Having a local Chinese partner makes a positive difference and I would recommend it. Thinking local is also important in another respect, because northern and southern China are very different, not least climatically. The goods you sell and the services you offer have to take account of these continental-style differences. China cannot be looked at through the prism of a homogenous nation. By thinking local, UK firms can build networks with local operations catering to specific local needs.
My final thought is about ambition. As the Chancellor said during his recent visit, there is an ambition in China and a surprising sense of optimism—similar, in a way, to Victorian Britain or 1890s New York. The ambition of the Beijing Olympics inspired us to do even better last summer. Britain excelled in Olympic sport and also, of course, in creativity, with the sheer entertainment value of those four extraordinary weeks.
While they have demonstrated some less attractive features, the Chinese have always shown great wisdom, not least with their treasure trove of proverbs. My noble friend Lord Dobbs quoted one:
“A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step”.
A maiden speech is a perfect example.
Baroness Bottomley of Nettlestone (Con)
My Lords, it is a great privilege for me to follow my noble friend, who has indeed been a friend for more than 20 years and a colleague in many settings. The great strength of her contribution today and of her contributions going forward is the breadth of her knowledge and involvement as a really high-flying civil servant. She has worked at the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, at No. 10—critically, at the deregulation unit; I am not sure whether she solved all the problems—and then she moved into the commercial world at Tesco where, for the past 15 years, she has been such an extraordinary success. Her breadth of knowledge and experience, her wisdom and her always practical approach will be a great addition to your Lordships’ House, so she is very warmly welcomed. We look forward very much to the next speech—do not delay.
I also congratulate my noble friend Lord Dobbs on securing this debate and on his very thoughtful words. Comments have already been made about the fact that today is the birthday of various pretty important people, including Billy Graham, the evangelist; Jean Shrimpton, the model; and Rio Ferdinand, the footballer. Most importantly, it is the birthday of our very special colleague, my noble friend Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint, who, in my view, is the thoughtful architect behind discussions on this great movement of west to east and north to south and the critical importance of China. The China-Britain Business Council, the noble Lord, Lord Powell, Sir David Brewer and my noble friend Lord Sassoon have all played a part, but my noble friend Lord Green’s experience as chairman of the largest company in the FTSE—HSBC—and his experience in that part of the world meant that he knew directly that China was not merely a foreign country but a place with massive potential. From my perspective, he was very much a John the Baptist in articulating most forcefully how critical it was that we had a completely new relationship with China. He will be much missed in his role when, in due course, he finds freedom and liberation, but we hope that he will continue to guide our thinking in many ways.
Mention has been made of the Silk Road, and this was very much in my mind going back to the second century BC, along which traders, merchants, pilgrims, monks, soldiers, nomads and urban dwellers travelled, trading goods, technologies, religions and philosophies—as well, I am afraid, as the Black Death and the bubonic plague. I pay tribute to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford—who, again, will not be with us all that much longer—for his comments about the importance of religion and philosophy. Their bedazzling complexity and subtlety is extraordinarily important. I share a life with him, having been a lay canon at Guildford Cathedral and having had a close involvement in the University of Surrey, where that connection has been crucial.
I want to specialise in the area about which the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick of Undercliffe, spoke: the fundamental importance of education. The English language is the language of business globally. That gives us the most extraordinary opportunity. I will recite all the economic benefits of international partnerships and of overseas students. Over and above the economic advantage for Britain of this wonderful export industry, I believe strongly that universities, particularly in the UK, are the places where intellect, integrity, culture and values are set. At that age, people need a moral compass to set them out on the world. The world today is not monochromal; it is a global world with cultures mixing. I declare my interest as an executive director of Odgers Berndston, where I people-traffic corporate global leaders and, very often, leaders of higher education institutions. The one thing in business that people need today is individuals who are culturally sensitive. It is no good being a Brit, a Welshman or a Scot; you have to be a global citizen.
My noble friend Lord Bamford was introduced earlier today, with all his activities at JCB in China. We need, in all our fields of endeavour—finance, commerce and academia—individuals who view the world as one community. It is really hard to develop that later on if you have never been educated with people of different cultures and backgrounds. The privilege of UK universities now is that they have become so multicultural and that people at that age make their contacts and connections. When I was young, you frequently did not go to even a mixed-sex university or college. Perhaps it was very much composed of people of a similar social background. We should compare that with the multicultural nature of our universities today, particularly when it comes to students from China.
There are some 78,000 Chinese students in the UK. Many of your Lordships know that the greatest pride in my life—apart from responding to my noble friend’s maiden speech—is to be chancellor of the University of Hull. As a great port going out into the world, it has a large number of international students. Some 13% of them—707—are Chinese. At the University of Surrey, I share with the right reverend Prelate some 1,600 students from China. These institutions are involved in joint campus collaborations. The University of Nottingham was the first non-Chinese foreign university set up in 2004. The Universities of Hull and Surrey now have flourishing establishments and relationships with China. Above all, the Open University, under Martin Bean’s leadership, has reinvented itself and has been recognised in the strategic plans in China, with 200,000 learning through Open University courses. There is also the establishment of FutureLearn, MOOCs and the new technologies.
With this huge population expansion and young people hungry for education, we need to find every means possible to help them join the graduate community of the world. I believe that we in the United Kingdom can play a very full part in making that happen to mutual self-interest.
Lord Haskel (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, for initiating this debate because it brings back many happy memories. When China announced the open-door policy in 1978, I was an early businessman to go there. I sold the Chinese the equipment and technology to make some of my firm’s textile products and carry out some of our processes so that they could supply markets that were closed to us in the UK. So began my business association with China, which lasted many years.
I loved going to China. The Chinese proudly took us to the technological wonders, so graphically described by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkham. They also patiently explained calligraphy, Beijing opera and Chinese art. In the philosophical exchange called for by the right reverend Prelate, they came here. The night before they went home, we always gave them a farewell dinner at the Reform Club. There was a lot of interest in this luxurious form of people’s commune. All this helped create the personal relationships so important in getting things done in China. This is because you never really know who is in charge, at any level. The Communist Party maintains its monopoly on power by control of the economy and access to it.
So I was interested when the London Mayor and Chancellor announced their successful business deals in China last month. The Chinese press reported that business had been done because the Prime Minister had admitted that he had mishandled or misunderstood Tibet. Here, some commentators ranging from the Observer to the FT interpreted the business resulting from this visit as kowtowing to the Chinese; I am sure that the Minister saw these reports in the papers himself. Maybe that is true, but to me it looked rather like desperate salesmen doing reckless deals to achieve their quotas. Indeed, the signs are there: the Chancellor announced measures to make it easier for Chinese banks to operate in London by opening branches that are regulated from Shanghai rather than subsidiaries regulated in London. This is exactly what helped to precipitate the crisis in 2008 and, as the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, mentioned, we said, “Never again”. Of course, if Chinese financial rules are reformed, it would be good for the City to have a bank clearing Chinese currency in London—but at the cost of bending our new banking regulations?
It was also announced that two Chinese state-owned nuclear power companies will take a 30% to 40% stake in Hinkley Point. Once again the Government are taking money and then depending on regulators to ensure tough scrutiny over security, safety, investment and financial issues, a concept not well understood or adhered to in China. And do the British public have faith in this concept? I doubt it, after their recent experience with the banking regulators, the energy regulators, the care quality regulators and the water regulators—I could go on.
Parliament itself has criticised the system of regulation in place to oversee Huawei’s operation here and its equipment that is now part of our digital network. I am all for an open economy and Britain being open for business, but there is a line between openness and recklessness. We must be very careful not to surrender our ability to operate and compete in important sectors of industry. Sectors where we have strengths, such as space, must not be sacrificed on the altar of inward investment. This is why we have to be sure that we are operating the right business model. If we have contractors for crucial sectors of our infrastructure that make it easy for us and make promises, as the noble Lord, Lord Howell, explained, there is little redress when things go wrong, and revoking such contracts is very expensive to us. There is always the temptation to hide these errors because politicians do not want to be embarrassed.
In this era of globalisation, our relations with China in business are complicated. The modern supply chain is so involved that it is almost impossible to track. You do not know if firms are trading with themselves or at arm’s length. The harmonisation of standards is virtually impossible, and this means the careful mutual recognition of regulation. This applies as much to intellectual property rights and data protection as to trade in goods and services.
All this makes dispute resolution highly complicated. Remember, too, that foreign companies in China are sometimes singled out for investigation or state-led smear campaigns simply because they are foreign. This is why we must have a reciprocal relationship with China, not a dependent one, a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, in her excellent maiden speech, and bilateral co-operation rather than reckless dependency—one of engagement, as the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, put it. These are all pressures on our business relations with China. We have to think them through properly before doing more deals that we may come to regret.
Lord Goodlad (Con)
My Lords, I join other noble Lords in congratulating my noble friend Lord Dobbs on his perceptive speech introducing our debate. He has given us much food for thought. I also endorse the tributes paid to my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe on her eloquent maiden speech, and I, too, hope that we shall hear more from her in future.
My noble friend Lord Dobbs rightly dwelt on the pace of change in China and the possible directions that change might take. He alluded to possible implosion. What, if anything, should the British Government and Parliament be doing to influence future change in China? My noble friend Lord Howell, in his most recently published masterpiece, Old Links and New Ties: Power and Persuasion in an Age of Networks, has this to say:
“Those schoolbooks about capital flowing from the West into the developing world are history. The wealth, as well as the … technological skills, have long since been flowing the other way, with the debt-laden Western ‘powers’ now turning east and south for desperately needed investment and capital from the massive savings and the huge sovereign wealth funds of Asia. It is now from India and China that we have so much to learn, not the other way round. They certainly don’t want lectures from us”.
So, no lectures please.
However, it is perfectly possible, as the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has been doing for a very long time, to exert quiet and helpful influence, to encourage moves towards greater openness while avoiding explicit criticism or confrontation and to continue to support reform in China, not just on the rule of law and the judiciary but also in areas such as bribery, transparency, open government and the development of civil society, not through lecturing or preaching but through the sharing of best practice with partners representing a very ancient civilisation.
Is it appropriate, some ask, that in its reports on human rights and democracy the FCO should publicly comment on subjects such as China’s online censorship, harassment of human rights defenders, the inadequacies of safeguards in China to guarantee the rule of law and access to justice, Tibet and other subjects? The answer is clearly yes, it is appropriate and important. Why else would China engage in more than 20 rounds of the UK/China human rights dialogue on subjects such as detainee rights; migrant rights; capital punishment; freedom of expression; freedom of religion; China’s plans for ratification of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights; ethnic minority rights; individual human rights cases; the role of faith groups in civil society; and the use of evidence in criminal trials? The Government of the People’s Republic do not want implosion.
I shall say a brief word about Hong Kong as part of our relationship with China. Hong Kong constitutes a very large proportion of China’s economy and for historical reasons, as has been said, we have an enormous stake in Hong Kong, as Hong Kong has here. This historical and still growing interrelationship is not and will not be at the cost of our economic relationship with Shanghai, Guangdong, Chengdu and the other growth points of China but complementary to them. It is an important relationship, both to China and to this country.
The Foreign Office, rightly, takes very seriously its commitments under the Sino-British joint declaration. A recent six-monthly report to Parliament on the implementation of the Sino-British joint declaration on the question of Hong Kong concluded that after the handover of sovereignty in 1997 the rights and freedoms guaranteed in the joint declaration have in general been respected. The rule of law and the independence of the judiciary continue to be upheld. The report expressed concerns about freedom of the press and of expression and urged the new chief executive to ensure the full protection of the rights and freedoms which are essential to Hong Kong’s success. In the foreword, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary said that he looked forward to further substantive progress towards full, universal and equal suffrage for elections in 2017 and 2020.
It is to be welcomed that the UK branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association is sending a delegation to LegCo next week to discuss matters of mutual interest. They can be assured of a warm and enthusiastic welcome.
There is a very high degree of experience and concern for Hong Kong in your Lordships’ House. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s six-monthly report to Parliament, to which I have alluded, could perhaps be debated in this House if the Government can find time. Perhaps the Minister would like to talk to his colleagues about that, because I think this House could make a helpful contribution.
The former Prime Minister and Foreign Minister of Australia, Kevin Rudd, himself a distinguished sinologist, wrote recently in the New Statesman:
“the challenge we all face (China included) is managing the rise of a non-democratic China as a great power within the framework of the international order … It will require the highest levels of political engagement and thoughtful diplomacy that the world has seen since the end of the cold war”.
The outcome of the recent fifth China-UK economic and financial dialogue has clearly marked an important step forward in China-Britain relations. China believes that the growth of China-UK relations serves the shared interests of both countries and contributes to world peace and development and wishes to work for a more healthy and stable relationship on the basis of respecting each other’s interests and concerns. It is in everyone’s interests that we pursue stronger and deeper trade and economic relationships, while at the same time maintaining our long-standing position on human rights. The welcome developments of recent weeks and months have proved that where there is good will and a mutuality of interest, much can, and will, be achieved.
Lord Watson of Richmond (LD)
My Lords, I too join in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, for instigating this debate and congratulating my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe on her excellent maiden speech. I am sure that we shall hear more from her as the months go by. She and I shared a fascinating visit to Beijing in 2010 to look at the rapid changes in retailing in that city. For me it was also a huge contrast with my first visit to Beijing in 1977, a year after Mao Tse-Tung’s death and a year before Deng Xiaoping’s return. It was then, of course, a city of bicycles; it is now one of traffic jams brightened by a profusion of pink Rolls-Royces.
Any attempt to evaluate recent developments in our relationship with China requires perspective. The best any of us can do in a short debate is to share relevant experience and any particular insight that such experience may have given us. Mine centres on the contradiction in China between extraordinarily rapid economic growth and change and the continuity of monopolistic political power and the impact of this contradiction on our relationship.
As has already been pointed out, we are having this debate two days before the third plenum of the 18th Central Committee of the Communist Party of China, the first for the party chief and State President. There is much speculation that this could bring about a change as radical as that brought about by Deng back in 1978. My second visit to Beijing was in that year. Even then, as a foreigner, you felt the force, like a second earthquake, of impending change. Twelve months earlier I had been restricted to the Hotel of Foreign Nationalities, with its shop selling only the little red book and admiring accounts of Red Guards who had done the right thing by denouncing their parents. The year 1978 was all about change, with China opening its relationship with us and with the rest of the West, and life flowing into new channels of entrepreneurialism and trade. That year changed our relationship. Will 2013 do the same?
China is in the forward planning and investment programmes of virtually every major business in the western world. Countries compete frantically to sell to China and to attract investment from China. Boris Johnson and George Osborne outdo each other—and outdid each other—as super-salesmen. Some, of course, urge us to shed all restraint and become a new generation of buccaneers. Many people advocating such a course believe that we would do far better in China unfettered by the European Union—conveniently ignoring the fact that Germany, at the very heart of the EU, sells four times the value of goods and trade to China than we do.
Whether singly or as the EU, we all know that recovery from recession turns critically on what happens next in China. Here we face the contradiction with which I began: amazing change on the one hand, and the continuity of communist power on the other. It is that contradiction that will challenge the third plenum, taking place behind closed doors this weekend.
Will Hutton, writing in the Observer after George Osborne’s visit, dubbed him, uncharitably and unfairly, “Bambi in Beijing”—allegedly because he had ignored the obstinacy of Communist power and the determination of the party to retain it. No doubt that determination does exist, but it is shot through with contradictory pressures. There are the aspirations of an urban population of 665 million, many in the 129 Chinese cities with populations of more than 1 million people. There are the great disparities of wealth between those still stranded on the land—or, indeed, dispossessed by urban development—or trapped as what must be described as sweated labour in so many regimented factories. There is the urgent need to liberalise the economy and break up state monopolies if consumer spending is to soar, as it must, as the domestic economy becomes China’s key source of growth. There is the imperative to do this as China’s export advantage of low production costs erodes. Above all, there is the tension between economic liberalism and political control.
The Foreign Office Minister believes that,
“political reform and economic reform come hand in hand”.
If they do not, failure could foster a catastrophic shift in the tectonic plates beneath China’s surface. In the other place, the Prime Minister assured us that the UK will stand firm on human rights. It would be good to hear the Minister confirm that there was no apology from the Prime Minister for the Dalai Lama’s visit to London and his meeting with him. Human rights and political reforms are, in the end, the only way to sustain and grow the prosperity of China. So old and deeply talented a civilisation has the ability to resolve these contradictions, and it is our hope—and our interest—that it does so.
Let me end on a personal note. In the north-eastern city of Shenyang my late mother-in-law, a brilliant German businesswoman, Erica Lederer, began to manufacture decorative goods for the German market very shortly after the cultural revolution. She admired the people, their skills, their competitiveness and their friendship. At the centre of Shenyang stands perhaps the biggest statue of Mao Tse-Tung in the whole of China. Under his granite feet the talent and aspirations of ordinary Chinese people were even then, in that first year after the cultural revolution, beginning to shift the ground, and are doing it so much more so today.
Lord Whitby (Con)
My Lords, it is truly an honour to speak for the first time in this noble House. I begin by thanking your Lordships warmly for your generous welcome and the staff of the House who, despite my regular pestering, have been remarkably kind and understanding. I would also like to thank all those people who have helped me on my life’s journey to this point, not least my sponsors and noble friends Lord Baker and Lord Edmiston, my family and friends, who have guided and loyally supported me throughout, the people of Harborne, who elected me, and my political friends and colleagues from both the Conservative and Liberal Democrat Parties, who entrusted me for eight years with the leadership of the largest metropolitan authority in the United Kingdom.
During those years a considerable amount of my time and energy was focused on developing and nurturing a sophisticated political relationship with Beijing and several of China’s powerful cities. We structured a campaign of engagement and business development between Birmingham and China, a programme which used civic links to build bridges into China and reinforce them with formal twinning between several major cities. The results have been impressively tangible. The Greater Birmingham City Region exports £2.7 billion-worth of goods to mainland China, far more than the south-east region. We make up almost a quarter of all UK trade with China and are the only region in Britain that has a trading surplus with China itself. That success is due in no small part to Jaguar Land Rover exports, which increased 74% last year on the previous year and are already ahead by a further 24% this year. As a proportion of Jaguar’s total sales, China is now Jaguar Land Rover’s largest global market.
Despite the collapse of MG Rover in 2005, manufacturing is still taking place in Longbridge. Most importantly, however, the new Chinese owner of the brand, SIAC, has invested heavily in research, development and car design, creating 400 engineering jobs. The MG magic, quintessentially British, still has its heart in Birmingham, and the new MG3 was recently launched from Longbridge in September. The combination of British design and Chinese production is a powerful example of the bilateral benefits of Chinese investment. The former Premier of China, Mr Wen Jiabao, when visiting MG in Birmingham in 2011, received from me the first MG6 from the production line and commented:
“The relationship between Birmingham and China should be the model for the relationship between the United Kingdom and China”.
Noble Lords will appreciate that my blushes were similar in hue to the Chinese flags fluttering proudly alongside the union flag.
I congratulate my noble friend Lord Dobbs on securing today’s debate, which follows on from the recent highly successful talks between Chancellor George Osborne and his Chinese counterpart, Vice-Premier Ma Kai, as part of the economic financial dialogue between Britain and China. I welcome the Government’s bold decision to reform the UK’s visa application system. During my administration in Birmingham we increased tourism from 29 million visitors in 2005 to 33 million in 2011, generating more than £5 billion of economic improvement while supporting 60,000 jobs. We are already a major destination for Chinese business visitors and tourists and expect to double the number of Chinese visitors over the next decade. The city region already attracts 7,375 Chinese university students, according to the latest statistics. However, the challenge is that 83 million Chinese tourists left China last year, the biggest tourism market in the world, spending £63 billion between them. The United Kingdom saw just a fraction of those visitors, with only 180,000 coming to the UK. I believe that with sensible and sensitive visa arrangements we can dramatically improve our student visitor economy.
The Greater Birmingham City Region is currently undergoing transformational transport infrastructure projects such as New Street station, new metro lines and the extension of the Birmingham Airport runway. Connectivity is essential to the growth of our regional economy and point-to-point airline routes which connect you to the growth nodules of the world, and in particular to China, are imperative. I ask the Minister to encourage his Government colleagues to support direct flights between the City of Birmingham and Chinese cities when such opportunities are presented as the runway extension is opened in 2014.
In my case today it is not “for whom the bell tolls” but rather how quickly the clock ticks. I once again thank my noble friend Lord Dobbs for instigating today’s debate, which affords us the time to reflect upon the wealth of opportunities China has to offer and how the success of Birmingham and the greater Birmingham region with China has complemented the United Kingdom’s growth agenda.
Lord Lexden (Con)
My Lords, the whole House will join me in congratulating my noble friend Lord Whitby on his excellent maiden speech. His fame goes before him as a most effective and vigorous leader of Birmingham City Council, the city of Joe Chamberlain, which my noble friend served devotedly, not least as head of a notable coalition administration, to which he made reference. He gave us a fine taste of his vigour and determination in his speech and will bring an important dimension to our debates, which we will value. I also pay tribute to my new noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe for the wise and wide-ranging reflections that she provided in her memorable maiden speech.
By common consent this is an important debate, for which we are indebted to my noble friend—and long-standing personal friend—Lord Dobbs. It provides an opportunity, among other things, to draw attention to the extremely significant contribution made by British schools and sixth-form colleges to the ever-expanding and closer relations between our country and China. My noble friend Lord Kirkham made brief and vigorous reference to that. The importance of education in bringing our two countries closer together has not been neglected, but it tends to be discussed almost entirely in relation to higher education. Our universities and other higher education institutions are at the centre of this dynamic academic relationship, as the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, and my noble friend Lady Bottomley reminded us.
Nearly 79,000 students from mainland China were enrolled in our higher education institutions in 2011-12, nearly double the number in 2007-08. However, it is important to note that this growth in numbers has been assisted in no small measure by British schools, and in this achievement our country’s independent schools loom large. I declare an interest as president of the Independent Schools Association, which represents the heads of some 300 smaller, less well known independent schools and which forms part of the Independent Schools Council, of which I was general secretary for some years, working for some 1,200 schools altogether. I also speak as president of the Council for Independent Education—CIFE—which is a professional association of 18 independent colleges that prepare students for university.
Young people come to British schools from a wide range of countries. Some come to our maintained schools: to the state boarding schools and others that have an international outlook. But the vast majority of overseas pupils come to British independent boarding schools and sixth-form colleges, influenced no doubt by OECD surveys, which rank our independent schools among the best in the world. Most of these schools are members of the Independent Schools Council. Currently, 26,000 non-British pupils whose parents live overseas are being educated in them.
The growth in the mainland Chinese market has been one of the most striking features of the recruitment of foreign pupils to British schools in recent years. Traditionally, Hong Kong was the principal provider of overseas pupils, but today, the number of new pupils from mainland China is catching up with the number from Hong Kong, and will soon overtake it. Their combined numbers account for nearly 40% of all overseas pupils in ISC schools—slightly more than the total for the whole of the European mainland. The mainland Chinese number increased in the past year by 5.4% to a total of almost 4,000. This is in addition to a total of more than 5,700 from Hong Kong.
Chinese parents are attracted by: high academic standards; expertise in English language teaching; absorption of a full British education experience, in many boarding schools alongside other international pupils; good pastoral care; a secure environment; opportunities for entry to UK universities; and, not least, by the warmth of the welcome extended to Chinese students in independent schools. A growing number of ISC schools teach Mandarin, and I hope that the number will rise, not least as a result of the comments made in this debate.
Students from China form a particularly successful and welcome element of the 18 CIFE colleges. Last year, 85% of their 200 Chinese students in their final year gained places in higher education institutions in Britain. Here are comments made by two of the college heads in a survey which I have just conducted. The first said:
“Last year, our most academic student was Chinese and progressed to Imperial College to do theoretical physics. Most Chinese students progress to a Russell Group university”.
The second said:
“Our Chinese students are very successful, as demonstrated by our strong results and university destinations. Yet we are non-selective, supporting Chinese students of all ability ranges to achieve their goals”.
In all specialist areas of teaching and learning, the story is the same. The links between our country and China are expanding, to the benefit of both. Music provides a telling example. The Royal College of Music’s chair of international keyboard studies, Professor Vanessa Latarche, is vice chairman of Lang Lang Music World, a school for gifted pianists in Shenzhen. Lang Lang gives regular master classes at the RCM, including one this very month. A successful working relationship with the China Conservatory of Music in Beijing has been firmly established. The director of the Royal College of Music, Professor Colin Lawson, said:
“In China, we continue to look for partnership opportunities, artistic collaboration, and provision of local RCM auditions”.
The long-term benefits to Britain that accrue from hosting thousands of young foreigners for a formative part of their education are incalculable. The financial benefits in foreign currency earnings are calculable, and run into hundreds of millions of pounds. Even more important are the links that successive generations of British-educated Chinese, and other foreigners, establish and retain with the United Kingdom. Many will eventually occupy influential positions in their own countries.
Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde (Lab)
My Lords, I join other Members of the House in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, for initiating this debate; he introduced it in a very positive way, while at the same time being realistic about the challenges that face us in our relationship with China. We have had two excellent maiden speeches, enjoyable and full of the experience of the two new Members of the House. I wish them well and look forward to their future contributions.
The UK exports more each year to Ireland than it does to China. China has a population of 1.5 billion. That is quite a statement and it demonstrates the challenge that we face. We have barely 1% of China’s imports, and Germany has 5%. We have got quite a long way to go. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint, in his period at the department has done a lot, not only to encourage, but to push things forward. I know this from personal experience; I went to see him about air traffic services. I am on the board of NATS. He personally made some changes which have helped the development of that organisation and it is now in 32 countries throughout the world. Unfortunately, it is not in China. I ask the noble Lord, in the short time he will still be at the department, if he would make sure that we have a role there, on trade missions. Certainly, aviation is expanding at an enormous rate in China. For an island, our connections with the companies and countries that we export to are crucial. The noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, was right in what she was saying, as a number of other Members have been.
The multinational companies have been doing quite well, but of course Britain is made up substantially of small and medium-sized companies. We have not been doing so well in that respect and I suggest that we need to make a concerted effort. The UK has got enormous opportunities of leverage, in the strong positions in our design, innovation, and environment management; in particular, healthcare; life sciences and green tech, as well as aviation.
I would like to concentrate on the role of higher education and the assistance that it can, and does, give, and could continue to give. Many of the Chinese elite were educated in this country; many of them still continue to send their children to our fine UK universities. I support what noble Lords have said, in particular what my noble friend Lady Warwick of Undercliffe said about visas. There seems to be a bit of a disconnect here; you talk to the civil servants and they say “There isn’t a problem”. But we know that there is, and somehow that disconnect has to be addressed. Bo Xilai sent his son to Harrow. There are education connections which we could build on; we have very few expats living in China, yet half a million Chinese people who have been educated here are now back in China, and they are certainly people we could have a good relationship with.
I need to declare an interest; I am on the council of Nottingham University, which was mentioned this morning. We have a university at Ningbo. It is a partnership, but it is actually called the University of Nottingham Ningbo. It is run by Nottingham, and when the university was built less than a decade ago, it was built on farmland. Next year is its 10th anniversary. The city has grown in population from 5 million to just under 10 million in that short time. The university has 6,000 students, 10% of whom are international students, while the rest are Chinese. They are being taught to a degree which is Nottingham University UK accredited, and they are taught in English. The capital assets of the university are held in partnership with the Chinese city fathers. The chairman is a local Chinese woman, and the governing council has Chinese members on it too. But the academics are not Chinese—they are international academics, drawn from all over the world. I was there a month ago and met with many of the students and alumni. They are hungry for education. In parallel with that, they are determined to succeed. When you talk to them, they do not necessarily see themselves remaining in China.
As part of that trip, when we went to Shanghai we visited Fudan University, where we were told that it has been decided in the past few months that by 2020 every student must spend one year of their education outside China. That is quite an opportunity for us. It also clearly demonstrates their ambition. I felt a great deal of pride in listening to our pro-vice-chancellor Christopher Rudd make a speech off the cuff in absolutely wonderful Mandarin. That went down very well with our Chinese guests.
Over the past few months we have seen Ed Davey—he was at Fudan when we were there—go to China to talk about the environment; we have seen the Chancellor go; and, in a few weeks, I gather that the Prime Minister is going. I give the Government credit for that. It clearly demonstrates an energy which we need in developing our relationships with China. Indeed, if the Prime Minister had the time to see Nottingham in Ningbo, he would be very welcome indeed. Maybe the Minister would consider putting that on his desk.
We have a lot that we can lever in China. We have to be realistic and pragmatic about it. We have to accept that it is a two-way stretch: it is not just us telling China but us learning from them. Until January this year, the chancellor of Nottingham University was Chinese. A Chinese chancellor in a UK university: that is true partnership.
Baroness Wheatcroft (Con)
My Lords, I add my congratulations to my noble friend Lord Dobbs on securing this important debate and leading it so skilfully. I also applaud the two insightful and interesting maiden speeches we have heard today. I look forward to hearing more from both our new Members.
This is an auspicious day for such a debate. For today, the first ship will enter Britain’s new port, London Gateway. This remarkable deep-water facility will be able to handle 3.5 million containers a year and is just 20 miles down the Thames from London. Earlier this year, the Prime Minister described it as “an emblem of ambition”. So it should be, but I was struck that all the coverage of this new port referred to the imports that will be landing at London Gateway, many of them from China. However, the plan must not be that these ships will leave London empty. London Gateway should indeed be an emblem of the ambition Britain has to build its exports. There is no more inviting market than China.
As we have already heard, our performance has improved markedly. Last year was the third in a row in which our sales to China increased faster than those of Germany, France or Italy, but from a relatively low base. We are still too far behind. Yet, as my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe said, there is an appetite in China for British-made goods. Jaguar Land Rover, for instance, sold a record 73,347 vehicles in China last year, an increase of 74% over the previous year. Burberry has been selling its style in China for 20 years and last year Church’s shoes—a brand not unknown to Members of this House—opened its first shop in China.
These are all high-quality brands and we have many more of them. This summer, I was one of those fortunate to attend a wonderful event in the gardens of Buckingham Palace. This was no ordinary garden party but an opportunity for royal warrant holders to display their wares. From sausages to silverware and cosmetics to clothing, the best of British was on show. As potential buyers from abroad looked at what was on offer, the Queen and Prince Philip toured the exhibition, doing their best to boost the sales effort. Ten years ago, the idea of a trade fair at Buckingham Palace, with Her Majesty taking on the role of head of sales, would have been unthinkable. Now, however, Britain is really serious about bolstering its export effort. We had a prime example last month, to which many noble Lords have already referred, with the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s hugely successful visit to China.
At this point—and I am glad to see the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, in his seat—I admit to an interest as a member of the UK advisory board of Huawei, a telecoms company which is playing a major role in the infrastructure of this country and is one of the fastest-growing companies in the world. Huawei is demonstrating ably how the UK and China can co-operate. It is investing more than £1 billion in the UK, including creating a new research and development centre in London. It is also taking on apprentices and doing its best to foster trading between our two countries, taking students to spend time in China and bringing them back here so that what they have learnt can be expanded.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Dean, said, our larger businesses know how to access overseas markets but the imperative now is to ensure that our smaller businesses take advantage of export opportunities. Small high-tech companies which I have never heard of accompanied the Chancellor on his last visit to China, such as games developer Fat Pebble, and Kinosis, which apparently shows surgeons how they can operate via a mobile phone app; I am not entirely comfortable with that, but let us hope that it works.
Trade missions are just the start. Government help should not stop when they land back at Heathrow—and it is, of course, Heathrow. We have not always been good at providing the follow-up necessary to turn contacts into contracts. I am glad to say that this is improving, and credit for that goes largely to my noble friend Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint; we shall miss him.
While encouraging exports, we need to do all we can to persuade increasingly wealthy Chinese to spend their money here. Tourism, as other noble Lords have said, is crucial. The changes in the visa restrictions shall help. However, there are other things we can do. How many retailers and hotels accept Union Pay, the credit card of choice in China and a network second only to Visa in its reach? We should make it as easy as possible for wealthy Chinese to spend their money. I was fascinated to see how this massive organisation views our country. Its website has a small section on the UK which begins:
“Located in Western Europe, United Kingdom is an island country on the Atlantic Ocean … Scotland in the north is a mountainous area flush with cattle and sheep; England in the south boasts enchanting natural sceneries and Wales in the west is famous for rugged mountain ridges and green stream valleys”.
It goes on in a similar, lyrical vein but not, perhaps, portraying the vibrant, creative place we know. The Olympics showed what we can offer, but we must not rest on our Olympic laurels. The GREAT campaign is doing good work in explaining what is on offer in Britain, but it appears that there are some corners of the world that we still need to reach.
There is still a long way to go in fostering understanding between our two nations. A good start, I would suggest—as I always have—is language. Mandarin is not an easy language to learn but it is easier if one starts early. I was impressed to hear of state schools in Michigan where, from the age of four, children are taught every other day in Mandarin. Total immersion works and is cheap to provide: it simply means hiring primary school teachers whose first language is Mandarin. I would like to think that British children might soon be offered the same opportunity so that they will grow up and become effective exporters for Britain.
Lord Haskel
Can the noble Baroness refer to the concerns of Parliament over the regulation of her company? That is the point that I was trying to make.
Baroness Wheatcroft
The concern was over the way in which the deal with BT had been constructed. That is highlighted in the report from the security committee. As the noble Lord knows, GCHQ monitors everything that goes on between Huawei and businesses in this country.
Lord Wilson of Tillyorn (CB)
My Lords, China is enormously important. There are always new things happening there, and it is endlessly interesting. I feel very supportive of the view that China is now so much of a world power that we must be involved with China, try to get China involved in all the major issues in the world, encourage China to take part in international organisations, and encourage those organisations sometimes to adjust themselves to take account of China’s joining.
The visit recently by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Mayor of London to Peking seems to have put our own bilateral relationship back on some good rails, and that is very encouraging because, without that top-level relationship in good order, it becomes much harder to deal with things at different levels. It is interesting to note that, as the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, in his splendid and far-ranging speech opening the debate, said, over the past three years, despite some difficulties in our own bilateral political relationship, our exports to China have gone steadily up, and Chinese investment here has gone up too.
As the major things have by and large been dealt with, I should like to concentrate on some practical building blocks in the relationship with China. The first is the importance of learning the language, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, has just referred. My attention was drawn the other day to an extract from a foreign-language journal in Shanghai. It lamented the fact that foreign businessmen in Shanghai failed to realise that speaking Chinese was essential to promoting trade. The date was January 1924. The point is still worth making, but the good news about our trading relationship with China is the significant number of young people, including from the United Kingdom, who go to China, who deeply immerse themselves, and who speak very good Chinese. I find that very encouraging.
I find, too, very encouraging the fact that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office seems to be reverting to a more traditional approach of believing that regional expertise really does matter and that language matters. I understand that, with the strong support of the Foreign Secretary, there has been a great promotion of learning foreign languages, including Chinese. It would be very interesting if the Minister had those figures because it would inform us.
The noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, referred to the single step that starts any long journey. The single step is at a lower level. University work on China, as he pointed out, particularly at PhD level, is not nearly good enough. The number of students at university level is not good enough. We also need to start at school level. There the picture is mildly encouraging. I should declare an interest. I am president of the Scotland-China Education Network, which tries to promote the teaching of Chinese in Scottish schools under the inspired leadership of Dr. Judith McClure, former head teacher of one of the major girls’ schools in Scotland. There are about 10,000 young people in Scotland learning Chinese at state schools, and there will be more in the private sector.
There are, however, practical problems. This gets back to the visa problem, to which so many noble Lords have referred in different forms. There is the problem of getting people from China to teach Chinese in our schools throughout the UK. Recently, to take an example in Scotland, the Confucius Institute in Strathclyde University in Glasgow wanted to renew the contracts of some of their Chinese teachers who had been there a year. The UK Border Agency has apparently changed its rule so you can have a year, and it cannot be renewed. Some of those teachers were told they could not come back. Late last night I was told that the immediate problem has been resolved, but the underlying problem remains: how do we get people from China to teach Chinese? There is a similar problem at another Confucius Institute, the one at Aberdeen University, where I have an expired interest, having stepped down as chancellor at the end of last year. I hope the Minister will take account of these problems, although they are not his departmental responsibility, and try to bring together the UK Border Agency with those who are involved. Perhaps it would be a good sort of birthday thing to do before, sadly, he steps down from his present post.
The noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, referred to the significance of law in China. There was a very good programme here run by the Great Britain China Centre, of which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, is president, to train Chinese judges. About 80 have been trained in the past decade or more. Funding, which came from the Ministry of Justice, has run out. It is a very good, practical thing we could do. Those people go back to China, their influence spreads, and it is extremely valuable. Perhaps the ODA could take that on.
Finally, there is the matter of Hong Kong, to which the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, also referred. Our political position there has hugely changed since 1997 but Hong Kong has institutions, a legal set-up and a government structure which make it very user-friendly for people from the United Kingdom. It is a very good jumping-off ground for trade and all involvement with China. I am sure that the Minister, with his own personal background, will feel strongly about that and therefore I can appeal to him to encourage his colleagues to continue to see the importance of Hong Kong in our relationship with China.
Lord Wei (Con)
My Lords, I too want to thank my noble friend Lord Dobbs for tabling this very timely debate, and also congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Whitby, and the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, on their outstanding maiden contributions today. A happy birthday, too, to the noble Lord, Lord Green, who will be sorely missed in his role as trade Minister.
I declare an interest both as someone with Chinese ancestry and as one who was born and grew up in Britain. This led me quite naturally upon entering your Lordships' House a few years ago to take a keen interest in the nature of the relationship between the UK and China, of British business and interests in China, and in the state and condition of the Chinese in Britain. To this end, I also declare an interest as the chairman of the APPG for East Asian Business, as co-chair of the Conservative Friends of the Chinese and as a non-executive director of the Manchester-China Forum. I also declare a number of other related interests which can be seen on the public register.
In each of these roles I hear much about the challenges and criticism from both sides in the UK-China relationship, from both the media and through public debate, as well as behind closed doors. There can be no doubt that there has been and will likely continue to be areas of major disagreement and cultural and political differences in the relationship between our two countries. I could spend much of this speech recounting the historic disputes and perceived injustices on either side. These might include British imperial imposition by gunboat on China of goods such as opium and other wares which Gladstone described as morally indefensible and which ultimately hurt us when our protected trade succumbed to global competition. Similarly, companies in Britain at times feel competition from China has been unfairly backed by a favourable currency, state subsidies and an intellectual property framework that historically has been hard to enforce, all under the control of a Government who exert supreme authority over their citizens and media.
I could go on recounting such instances but I will not because these issues are both complex and culturally and politically difficult to resolve. Will we ever get agreement if we see the world just through the Chinese leadership’s eyes? They are concerned to maintain stability in a country that is known to descend into anarchy if not led well and strongly; they are cautious about religion, as past cults have led to extreme acts of violence and terrorism, such as the Boxer Rebellion. The Chinese Government are keen to avoid other countries’ determining their own internal affairs given colonial experiences at the hands of almost every other major power. Or by pushing our western liberal agenda onto China will we get it to agree to open up faster, introduce democracy on our terms, give up its one-party communist system in favour of a fully western one with a strong and free media and full introduction of the rule of law? Your Lordships can see how these divergent approaches might not lead to swift agreement in the short term. Instead, there is another, pragmatic approach—a word that I choose because both the British and Chinese in general are highly pragmatic people. That is to focus not on what we disagree on at the outset, but on what we have in common. There is a lot we have in common, more perhaps than we realise, and more than is the case between China and many other of our competitor nations.
First, we share similar historical journeys. We as the first industrial nation know what it is like to shift painfully from an agricultural society to an industrial and then knowledge economy, with all the attendant environmental, social, and political issues that this creates. We have a lot of experience to humbly exchange with China on how to manage this transition, and we can also learn a lot ourselves as China attempts to do in 50 years what it took us hundreds of years to do, including adapting our politics to meet the needs of a more urban, connected society and innovating new solutions in healthcare, housing and education in the 21st century.
Secondly, we have a common economic interest. China is shifting from an investment-led economy to one driven by consumption. We are the services capital of the world and have a lot to gain by helping Chinese consumers and service businesses in China flourish, harnessing our knowledge, brands, and expertise. Having ourselves made the shift, we can make a living exporting that know-how to help other emerging countries make their shift as well.
Thirdly, we both love learning. Our higher education and independent school system is the envy of the world; many Chinese love to send their children to study here, and the door is wide open for businesses from Britain to share their vocational knowledge. Many UK businesses could make a living from just doing that for the next few decades, let alone trying to directly service clients in China, such as with Martin Sorrell’s new advertising school in Shanghai.
When I witnessed at first hand the recent visit of the Chancellor—where we with the help of the Manchester-China Forum facilitated the announcement on Airport City—and the visit of the Mayor of London, I saw much to praise in these developments, because we focused on what we have in common, and not necessarily just on what separates us. There is progress on tourist visas, on allowing Chinese banks to more easily invest in Britain, and on enabling investors to help fund our recovery. But there is still more that we can do and ultimately, as a country, we have to choose how we want this relationship to develop. Will we choose to let UK neo-protectionists determine our foreign policy just as they did 200 years ago? Our policies on abolishing the post-study work visa, a key draw for Chinese students; on restricting the number of Chinese executives and family members from coming to help Chinese CEOs set up headquarters in Britain and create local British jobs; and on continuing to count students in immigration statistics all seem to be of the same spirit as that which Gladstone denounced, and could do as much damage as certain imperial monopolies did to our competitiveness and to our regions still today.
Equally, will we let China romanticists determine our policy and expect to walk into China naively assuming to be given a red carpet welcome like our first ambassador to the Chinese imperial court, Lord Macartney? Some organisations and SMEs I know still behave in this way, hardly bothering to learn the language, or engage people who can speak it literally and culturally, then wondering why so little was achieved. Or will we perhaps choose another way, which is to provide UK-China bridges, whether between individuals, cities or organisations, to let people build trust and then decide and act for themselves? As much as we have recently, laudably, reoriented ourselves at the centre towards better China relations, we have also to acknowledge that many recent breakthroughs in trade, from Weetabix to Royal Docks to Manchester Airport City, university and other partnerships, often started through the efforts of individual relationships: through the Anglo-Chinese students and business people who became friends and set up their own joint ventures, involving their parents and networks from the UK and China; through stakes being purchased with the advice of lawyers, friends, accountants and bankers; and through the Chinese diaspora in Britain helping to build academic and commercial links. Perhaps our role at the centre is to increasingly get out of the way, politicising less, and making it easier for bridge builders and intermediaries to do their jobs.
Finally, in the recent Pew Research Centre global attitudes survey, we can see that the population of Britain sees China less as an enemy than do other nations, at 7% compared to the US at 18% and France at 10%, and that the young here are generally more favourable towards China. Perhaps we in politics and the media need to follow the public more closely and let the people get on with it. Osborne and Boris can hardly be blamed for making strong overtures to China; increasingly, they and we by doing so are also playing to audiences at home. A strong UK-China relationship is not just potentially good for the economy, but will increasingly represent, for those keen to follow public opinion, sensible politics as well.
Lord Howe of Aberavon (Con)
My Lords, although my name does not appear on the speakers list, I hope that I may be allowed to intervene briefly as almost the last speaker in this debate.
I do so because China has been an institution in my life for a very long time. I go back to 1949 when, together with my academic friend, the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, I sold Conservatism in the Labour valleys of south Wales. The two of us, along with another, were the “brains trust” in the Constitutional Club of Ebbw Vale. The first question asked of us when we put our act over arose from the fact that, on that very evening, a socialist called Ernest Bevin, then Foreign Secretary, had recognised the People’s Republic of China. We were asked whether we thought that this was at all a proper thing for the British Government to do. Mercifully, we had both been subject to academic instruction at Cambridge from Professor Eli Lauterpacht, the international lawyer, and we were very quickly able to define what was necessary for China to be regarded as respectable, which was what we told the socialist miners at the Constitutional Club. That has left China planted firmly in my interests. Of course, it became overwhelmingly so when I found myself as Foreign Secretary, but it was so before that.
The other thing that I would like to emphasise, beyond the huge importance of China, is the outstanding importance of this debate. It is the kind of debate, with much expertise and diversity of judgment, which you would not be able to find in any institution of this kind, save the House of Lords. I am not drawing a lesson from that except to hope that the many arguments put forward by noble Lords here today will be regarded and worked on.
One of the most striking things was to understand the huge leaps that the Chinese leadership had to make as a socialist-dominated and communist-dominated organisation—as it did do eventually under Deng Xiaoping’s leadership. China had been through a period at the beginning of the 20th century when it did have democratically elected and departmental Governments, but that broke down—it did not work.
Deng Xiaoping was able to see not so much the need for political change as the importance of economic change. I talked to him, when I went out there to try to save the future of Hong Kong, and he said by way of encouragement that the American and Japanese Governments had given him assurances that their companies would go on investing in Hong Kong even when it was taken over.
He appeared to understand, when I gave him an alternative view, that Hong Kong was a magnet, and that Americans and Japanese would invest there only because of that magnetism. And that magnetism would not be durable if they found their investments being dealt with unkindly. They needed to have the guarantee of a market foundation in Hong Kong, for the future. Of course, that was not the only lesson that Deng Xiaoping learnt on the matter. But, certainly, the Chinese approach did thereafter recognise the importance of the magnetism of Hong Kong.
Not surprisingly, perhaps, the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, mentioned Chinese artistic objects, Ming culture and china of the porcelain kind, in the context of Hong Kong. It reminded me of another discussion that took place during the Los Angeles Olympics, and the baton races there. I stressed to Deng Xiaoping that he should think of us not as though racing against each other but as fellow members of a relay team: we are handing over Hong Kong and must make quite sure that the baton does not get dropped. We had to behave as if we were running together in the Los Angeles Olympics.
I do not take credit for having persuaded him in that one address. It was the picture that we were trying to get across, and it was that picture which has laid the foundation for market economics, rather than communist economics, that started in Hong Kong, but began spreading through China as well. The extent to which that is now understood and has been clarified by today’s debate is important. It has been an accurate, encouraging and optimistic debate, and I think the right one to make sure that our Government understand the importance of a liberal trading relationship with China. We recognise the importance of our political relationship. Those arguments have been underwritten in every way in today’s debate, including in the episcopal contributions and excellent speeches by two maiden speakers.
The importance of our maintaining the right attitude towards China, giving encouragement and recognising its importance, will be increasingly acknowledged and, I hope, will follow from this debate to which I have contributed—not, I am afraid, very eloquently but in simple terms. The noble Lord, Lord Wilson, has shown the right approach towards the Hong Kong Chinese, the extent to which democracy was able to found itself there and how the economic bridge with China was strengthened and better understood. I hope that the Government will take note of this debate in deciding how to proceed in our relationship with China.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, for securing this debate and for his wonderful introductory speech in which he managed to give us a sense of focus. He led us in what the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford called “an exchange of gifts”. I thought that was a very apposite phrase. Who can complain about a debate in which there is poetry—if you can say that limericks are poetry. The noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, was kind enough to share her thoughts, an aperçu, about some of the problems that the Government have faced in relation to tourism and trade.
I also pay tribute to the two excellent maiden speeches that have graced this debate. Interestingly, they managed to reach the heart of the debate, possibly in an unscripted way, but we benefitted from that. The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, spoke about her experiences in China and the lessons we could learn from the way in which trade is done there. The noble Lord, Lord Whitby, spoke about work that is happening in Birmingham—how investment changes things in a locality—that is the reverse of the coin. These were both influential and helpful to our understanding of this debate.
I add my congratulations to the Minister for a happy birthday. We have not had enough of the noble Lord in this House and are sorry to lose him so quickly. Ironically, as well as today’s debate, we are meeting again next week in another debate, so we are going out in a rush together. As many noble Lords have said, we are sorry that the Minister will not be with us as we go forward into the New Year.
There seems to be common ground that, in addition to a wider understanding and perspective on China, the key to the present relationship is in improving our exports. That is desirable, possible and even necessary. The UK currently exports $474.6 billion a year. We are roughly the 10th largest exporter in the world. However, we are dwarfed by the amount that China exports, which is more than $2 trillion, significantly more than the United States which exports $1.5 trillion. UK exports to China have grown in the past decade from $0.5 billion to nearly $3 billion. This is welcome, but it is from a very low base. In the first two decades of China’s move towards economic openness, the truth is that we have lagged very far behind Germany and France in penetrating Chinese markets. According to a recent article in the Economist, we export only about 50% of the amount that France does and 30% of what Germany does. Our exports to China are only just surpassing our exports to Italy. The graphs crossed in 2011. As my noble friend Lady Dean said, we still export more to Ireland.
There are no major political differences in our wish to improve our export performance, including to China. As part of this debate, we need to examine and address the reason for our continuing poor export performance. Noble Lords are aware that the National Audit Office published a report recently on how we support exporters overseas. It makes for interesting reading. It says that exports need to grow by 10% a year, every single year, to meet the Government’s target of doubling our exports to £1 trillion by 2020. It goes on to say that there seems to be no credible plan or measurement of progress to reach that target. Obviously, UKTI has a key role but it supports too few exporting British firms, according to the NAO. That is not good enough. We have to help more firms to export. Government cannot bridge this gap by itself; it is the firms that do it. We have to help those that already do to export more.
Finance is important in underwriting that. As Daniel Kawczynski, a Conservative MP who has written a report into UKTI performance, has said, over the past 18 months, just 18 small companies have used government export guarantee products which are aimed specifically at them. If we do not deliver more from that route, we are not going to be successful overall. To address this weakness requires an overall system-wide approach within the UK to guide us forward—a rethink of our industrial strategy over the recent period. Whether we pursue this successfully will matter far more in the long run to our economic relationship with China than anything else.
Labour has a credible agenda which the coalition seems to lack. This includes financing innovation, building skills, developing our regions and reforming our banks to ensure that they support the real economy. The economic recovery seems finally to be getting going again after a long and protracted period of stagnation, and that return to growth is something to celebrate and nurture. However, with business investment still on hold, bank lending to SMEs still contracting, youth unemployment still very high and living standards still falling for millions in this country, for most people, there is so far no recovery at all. This is no time for complacency.
In a recent speech the Shadow Chancellor said to the CBI:
“Britain has always succeeded, and can only succeed in the future, as an open and internationalist and outward-facing trading nation, with enterprise, risk and innovation valued and rewarded. Backing entrepreneurs and wealth creation, generating the profits to finance investment and winning the confidence of investors from round the world … That is why we believe it is so vital that government works closely with all businesses—large and small: to promote open markets, competition and long-term wealth creation; and to reform our economy so that, by using and investing in the talents of all, we can deliver rising living standards not just for a few but for everyone in every part of the country”.
We have heard today from several noble Lords that they are optimistic that the UK economic relationship with China will improve as China makes the inevitable transition from being the workshop of the world to being a knowledge and service economy. As this occurs, the argument goes, the Chinese will demand more of our excellent services in areas such as finance, the wider professions, health and higher education. As the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, warned us, we must be careful. In recent years, British universities have congratulated themselves on the large numbers of Chinese who have chosen to study in the UK. They have been welcomed here, and they have also become necessary to the survival of many of our departments and courses. There are various reasons why these students choose the UK, but an important one has been the lack of appropriate courses at home. However, that is fast becoming an obsolete reason, as Chinese higher education develops. The traditional elite universities have taken stock of international examples, welcomed new staff out of foreign postgraduate training, recruited foreign lecturers, started to reform teaching and curricula and developed new courses. Some 1,300 private universities have been established, usually with flexible, practical and very work-oriented courses and modules.
So China presents three challenges to the model we have of us being the experts, giving them UK higher education. First, China will not for long be a source of overseas students if its own universities overtake ours. Secondly, Chinese higher education clearly intends to offer its services in the world education market. Thirdly, in China there are, at present, 16 million students in higher education, with plans for 20% of secondary school leavers to be in higher education by 2010 and 50%—a familiar figure—by 2050. Even if a small proportion of these have a first-rate education and can use English, they will be competing with our graduates in virtually every field, unless, again, we can provide something very special from within the United Kingdom. Does the Minister agree that it is important to learn the lessons of Chinese education, both positive and negative, and apply them to our own institutions?
We have heard that the Government are desperate to secure Chinese investment in the UK. The tough regulatory approach to banking that was introduced after 2008 has been relaxed to promote trading in the Chinese currency in the City. Guaranteed electricity prices—double the present level—have been offered to secure Chinese investment in the EDF nuclear station at Hinkley. We are not against these measures per se, but we would like to see a much more serious debate about their justification and the implications that will flow from them, so perhaps the Minister will comment on that when he responds.
According to a recent article in the Economist in June this year, perhaps the single most disappointing aspect of the British economy in recent years has been its export performance, about which I have been talking. Against that background we have to remember that sterling is 25% cheaper on a trade-weighted basis than it was in 2008, and yet the trade deficit was still a stubborn £36 billion last year—more than 2% of GDP. Of course, as many noble Lords have pointed out, this is partly the result of a fundamental economic mismatch. Britain’s strength is in services; China’s hunger currently is for raw materials and machine tools. China seized 80% of the world’s metals supply last year, boosting exports from Australia in the process. The odd British firm, such as Rio Tinto, has cashed in, but countries such as Germany, whose firms sell kit used in Chinese factories, have done so very much better.
The prospects for British cultural exports are much brighter. However, as has been raised, there are real concerns about IP protection in China. In 2011, Britain’s global exports of TV formats—exciting programmes such as “Strictly Come Dancing” and “MasterChef”—were worth £1.5 billion. I hope that these figures will begin to attract more attention from UKTI, particularly in relation to developing economies and China.
However, the truth is that other countries appear to be taking better advantage of the shifts in China’s economy. I shall end with some questions for the Minister. As many noble Lords have mentioned, Britain seems to have gone out of its way to establish a reputation as a country hostile to business visitors, tourists and students. Visa processing is still slower than for the rest of the EU. As a result, London loses out to Paris as the place where wealthy Chinese like to go to shop. Visa restrictions hold back exports in more subtle ways, too. The Economist points out that Britain’s architectural practices, for example, often want to hire staff from the countries where they plan to bid for work, but this is almost impossible.
In 2011, the Prime Minister said that he wanted to double trade with China by 2015, but the gains that have been made are small. A much touted 2011 trade pact with China covered some 3% of the existing commerce between the two countries. Germany and China, for example, recently agreed on a deal which was 10 times bigger. Is the target set in 2011 still the one for which he is aiming?
My noble friend Lord Haskel mentioned that the warm public welcome for the Dalai Lama’s visit last year, which was largely arranged through No. 10, has not helped relations between the two countries. Like the noble Lord, Lord Watson, I would be grateful if the Minister would comment on that, particularly in the light of the rather underwhelming reception accorded to the Chancellor and the Mayor of London when they visited China recently.
Human rights concerns still affect our relationship with China. It is not just the regular house arrests but the lack of press freedom, the oppression of minorities and the fact that religious dissidents continue to be locked up. What representations have been made? What has the noble Lord said to his Chinese counterparts when he has led delegations to China? It would be interesting to reflect on that.
A continuous theme running through our discussions is that of language. How do we deal with that? How do we get people to speak Chinese? The Economist notes that whereas there is a network of trade envoys covering emerging and developing economies including Azerbaijan, Indonesia and Mexico, there is still no envoy for China. Is that the case? Will the Minister also comment on a long-promised agriculture attaché who apparently has still not been appointed?
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint) (Con)
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Dobbs for tabling today’s debate and for his very informed and insightful comments. Indeed, I thank all noble Lords for their very wide-ranging contributions. I pay especial tribute to my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe for her extremely insightful maiden speech, which focused particularly on conditions in China, as did the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. I also pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Whitby for his insightful comments on what it is like at this end as Chinese investment transforms British economic conditions.
This is an extremely important topic for us all and a very complex one. We have covered a lot of ground in this debate and I will find it something of a challenge to respond to all the questions and summarise all the themes in the allotted time. I like to think that I have come and gone to China over a long time but I am humbled by the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Watson, first went there in 1977 and the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, who first went there in 1978. I am a mere newcomer, having first gone there in 1983. However, I think the thought resonates with all of us that this is a society and an economy that is changing rapidly and profoundly, and will continue to do so. The challenge posed by this enormous, sophisticated and cultured country, and our engagement with it, is of profound importance to British society and the economy.
As China continues to grow, so do our shared interests and responsibilities. Our relationship is broader and deeper now than at any time in our history. As I say, China is changing fast. I could go on at length but one manifestation of that change is that Chinese companies are increasingly going global and are on their way to establishing global brands rather in the way that the Japanese did after the war and South Korea more recently. China will be next.
China is also becoming more sophisticated in its own research and development. It now files the largest number of intellectual property patents of any country in the world. Interestingly, there are more cases of IP theft going through Chinese courts than in any other country in the world—some 84,000 in 2012, only 2% of which involved foreign companies. .In other words, China has got to the stage where IP is an issue for Chinese businesses dealing with Chinese businesses, which I think means that we can take some comfort that the authorities mean what they say and intend to create a robust environment which protects intellectual property and stamps out corruption and fraud.
China is changing in other ways, too. The international role of China is changing profoundly, as my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford so articulately explained. This is a country that is taking its place on the world stage. We often talk about an emerging power. It is not an emerging power; it is re-emerging, or retaking its place on the world stage. I like to remind my colleagues in business that in 1820 China had the largest economy in the world and, 200 years on, it will be the largest economy in the world again.
China is also a country with a deep cultural past. As the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford reminded us, and others echoed, this is a country with a long-standing philosophical and religious perspective. I have met some of the characters mentioned by the right reverend Prelate and they are very remarkable people. The authorities are very keen to see a harmonious development of Chinese society and recognise the role that faith groups can play, particularly in an urbanised environment.
That brings me to my next point. China is not merely changing fast but urbanising fast. The figures are enormous. A number of speakers cited figures in relation to aspects of China’s growth. China has the most of almost everything these days, and the challenge posed to it by urbanisation over the next 20 to 30 years will be the biggest for any country, except possibly India. Something like 50% of its population live in cities now, but this will increase to 60% in as little as 20 years’ time. The implications for urban infrastructure, urban planning and the whole economy are profound. The rapid transformation presents enormous challenges for the Chinese authorities. Sometimes I think that the popular impression of China is that the authorities sit in Beijing smiling quietly as more and more Chinese companies invest and take over the world. That could not be further from the truth. The authorities are very conscious of the significant challenges of developing a very complex and large society, and of the need to rebalance. They are well aware that at the moment the Chinese economy is too dependent on investment and exports and needs to rebalance itself.
They are also well aware of the issues in the rural areas: poverty, issues of land ownership, the flow of immigration into the cities, which it is increasingly difficult to control, and so on. Demand for products and services like healthcare and education is expanding very rapidly and will continue to do so for the next generation. On the plus side of these challenges, a middle class is developing with the same sort of appetite for branded goods that we all take for granted. It is, therefore, no surprise that, as has been quoted, Jaguar Land Rover now finds China to be its largest market. Some 80,000 vehicles were sold there last year, and the number is growing rapidly. It is the second largest exporter of cars to China after BMW. So there are lots of challenges and plenty of opportunities, too.
Two important themes have dominated this debate and I will touch on both of them. The first is education and culture. My noble friend Lord Dobbs spoke about Chinese language tuition in schools and universities. I share his view of the importance of increasing the sensitivity of the younger generation in this country to Chinese, which is about both Chinese studies and Chinese languages. I am very pleased to report that my grandson is, almost exactly at this moment, doing a presentation on the warring kingdoms period of Chinese history. So he is being made to learn something about that great country.
The Government are committed to the learning of languages, including Chinese, in schools and universities. We undoubtedly start from a low base in the case of Chinese, but in 2013 the number of students entering for a GCSE in Chinese increased by 20% compared to the previous year and there were more than 3,000 A-level entries. It is a low base, but at least the direction of travel is right. In higher education, language study is about choice. We have seen some shifts towards languages that will better support employment outcomes in growth economies, including Chinese. In 2011-12 the number of students at UK higher education institutions taking Chinese studies was 1,870: a small number, again, but the direction of travel is good. It is important to note that there are many students not studying Chinese who increasingly get a component of Chinese studies as part of more multidisciplinary programmes. There are Chinese centres at Sheffield and Nottingham, to name but two.
There is plenty of work to do. My noble friend Lord Lexden and others, including the noble Baroness, Lady Dean, also pointed out the importance of education, not just at university but at school level. We recognise the importance of schools introducing children to Chinese at a young age and also the importance of being open to Chinese students wanting to come here at secondary and tertiary level. Another aspect of this is the importance of the engagement of British universities and other colleges in China. The noble Baroness, Lady Dean, referred to the work of Nottingham Ningbo. There are a number of other British colleges and universities: Dulwich College in Shanghai is just one of them. There are now some 230 research partnerships between British educational institutions and Chinese ones. We cannot be complacent about this. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, reminded us that the Chinese are rapidly upping their game and the old-fashioned notion that we have all the expertise and they have all the need is, frankly, behind us. We should recognise these as joint experiences: partnerships where we learn together about matters of importance to both our economies and societies.
There is plenty of competition in the English-speaking world. As the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, said, the Australians have learnt the lessons of some of their mistakes. We must make sure we have a supportive approach to letting Chinese students, and others, into the British education system. We need to minimise the impact of immigration rules on universities. I have been asked in this House before whether I would take up the question of excluding students from the immigration numbers. In response to that suggestion, I have taken it up and am happy to have another go.
Another theme that came up repeatedly, not entirely unrelated to education, is visas. The noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, and others, drew attention to the ease with which you can get a Schengen visa. There is some mythology around the numbers of these visas and where people actually go. In his opening speech, my noble friend Lord Dobbs said that seven times as many Chinese visitors go to France as to Britain. This is actually quite difficult to verify. One hard figure we do have is the number of visas issued. In 2012, the French issued 277,000 visit visas and we issued 210,000. So they issued one-third more than us rather than seven times more.
Chinese exit data on first destinations for Chinese travelling abroad show that the UK was the top European destination in 2010 and second to Italy in 2011. My general point is not that we should be complacent but that the numbers are quite hard to pin down. It is plain that we need to expect more and more Chinese visit visas over the coming years, both for tourism and for business and educational purposes. Specifically, we expect the number of visa applications to top 1 million by 2017. To facilitate that, and the processing of this very large increase in the number of applications, we introduced a number of measures.
Last month, in Beijing, the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced measures to streamline and simplify the visa process for Chinese nationals who want to visit the UK for business, study or pleasure. This includes plans to open a 24-hour visa service and streamlining the UK and Schengen visa application process. As the noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, pointed out, the Schengen process itself is moving—or so they claim—to biometrics, which will level the playing-field. I hope that we will increasingly be able to provide, in effect, a one-stop-shop service for Schengen and UK visas. We will, of course, always be left with the greater flexibility of Schengen. I suspect there is no one in this House who would argue for us joining the Schengen accord at the moment.
We will do our best on visas and I assure noble Lords that the Government recognise the importance of ensuring that the process works as seamlessly as possible. The forms are now in Mandarin, which was a good start. We now have more offices around China: more than the Schengen area does. Progress is being made in discussions with Schengen about how to converge the two processes as much as possible. I noted comments from a number of noble Lords on the importance of ensuring that the visa entry rules for both students and business are as business-friendly and education-friendly as we can make them. I am always happy—and so is UK Trade and Investment, the office which I oversee—to discuss any problems that specific institutions or firms have with getting people in, within the context of the overall policy. We are plainly not going to throw the whole policy up in the air but we need to make sure that, in practice, it works for business as seamlessly as possible.
I turn to inward investment, which is a very important topic for the economy in general. It is a great and long-standing competitive strength of this country that we are open for inward investment from all countries in the world. It is very difficult to imagine a number of our obvious competitors being as sanguine as we are about investment in, for example, the water supply of the national capital. Some 9% of Thames Water is owned by the Chinese sovereign wealth fund, as is 10% of Heathrow. We welcome these investments. We also welcome the deal announced by EDF in respect of Hinkley Point C, which is a good deal for this country. The entire nuclear industry, irrespective of who is investing in it and who is building it, needs to be properly regulated, for all the obvious reasons, but we are committed to the importance of nuclear as part of the energy mix. We have to invest substantially over the next 10 to 20 years in nuclear rebuild and we should welcome the involvement of foreign direct investment—including from China—so long as it is properly regulated and overseen.
The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, mentioned Chinese banks in London. The fact that we offered to allow them to operate through branches, as opposed to subsidiaries, does not mean that we are not going to regulate them, although they are, of course, regulated by the authorities in Beijing—not in Shanghai, incidentally—which would be the case whether or not they were subsidiaries or branches. They will also be regulated by the Prudential Regulatory Authority, whether they are subsidiaries or branches, according to the highest standards that the PRA thinks fit. I am very happy to assure the noble Lord on that point.
Huawei has already been discussed and I am not sure that I have anything useful to add to the exchange that has already taken place. I know the managers of that company, both here and in Shenzhen. I believe that they are committed to doing good business in this country and are certainly investing and building up the skill base in the way that my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft mentioned. All Members of the House will be aware of the security arrangements that are in place and are currently subject to review, following the report from the Intelligence and Security Select Committee.
I turn to exports, which are the other side of the coin. Every speaker has referred to the fact that we have a long way to go on this. We start from a low base and market share. I have always found completely unacceptable the notion of being behind not merely Germany, which is possibly understandable, but France and Italy. The good news is that we have now overtaken Italy. The good news is also that we have grown faster than all three of those countries for the past three years, but this is a long journey and we have to keep at it.
The importance of building relationships and making long-term commitments is something that everyone has underscored. It is true everywhere but it is certainly true in a country like China. Businesses need to spend time and need help. When it comes to small businesses, which were referred to by a number of noble Lords, it is important for the British Government to ensure that the role of UK Trade and Investment, working in partnership with the China-Britain Business Council, is as effective as possible in supporting those who make that journey by de-risking the decision for them and helping them to attend trade fairs. I am pleased to report that we have increased the number of resources we have on the ground in China, not merely in Beijing but around the country. We have increased the amount of money available for attendance at trade fairs and, by the way, we have increased the number of trade advisers in this country.
In respect of finance, we have substantially revamped UK Export Finance; it is not now the case that as few companies have been able to access UKEF as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, referred to. Indeed, its business is growing rapidly and I have asked it to triple its book over the next two or three years. I am afraid that I shall not be in office to see this happen but will be cheering from the sidelines. UKEF is now on the way and the momentum is clearly there. It now has more than £1 billion of support for small businesses, compared with almost nothing three years ago. So the direction of travel is there. We need to keep at this. It is a long journey, and we need to keep investing. I have mentioned UKTI and UK Export Finance.
In response to the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, I should like also to refer to the capabilities in the Foreign Office. We have 60 new staff working across the network in China, a third of them focused on less well known provinces and second-tier cities. I was recently in Wuhan, a city that we the British have neglected; the French are the dominant foreign presence there and we need to put that right. What is true of Wuhan will, frankly, be true of dozens of other cities. We have a long way to go. We have been investing in language training in the Foreign Office. I have some numbers somewhere that I cannot find, so I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, with the details. We have substantially increased the amount of Mandarin training in the Foreign Office because we fully endorse the notion that its officials are at their most effective if they can speak the language.
I will respond explicitly to some of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. I do not have the time to discuss Britain’s industrial strategy, except to say for the record that we the coalition believe that it is a coherent strategy that is bearing fruit, and we need to stick at it. We need to invest in the skills that equip the next generation to succeed in a competitive world. There is no turning back from this globalisation. There is no turning back from the challenge of ensuring that education and apprenticeship systems work correctly, that we connect up research and development at university level with businesses and that we invest in appropriate partnerships in key sectors. The sectors involved for the British economy are very wide—all the way from advanced manufacturing and aerospace, through IT, the creative industries and practically every sector in between.
Perhaps I may conclude with just 30 seconds on Hong Kong, as my time is up. Hong Kong remains extremely important to the British relationship with China generally, as well as being important in its own right. I had the great honour of living in Hong Kong when the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, was governor there, and I have seen it change rapidly over the years. The closer economic partnership agreement is in place between Hong Kong and the mainland, which means that a company operating in Hong Kong can do business in the mainland without further restrictions, and several hundred British companies in Hong Kong have the opportunity of building their business in the mainland through the Hong Kong gateway. It is a very important asset in terms of the competitiveness of British businesses in China, when compared with that of our European counterparts and others.
Finally, I come back to the importance of this debate. No country is strategically more important to us than China. This is a long journey forwards in the relationship. It is a complex country and there are massive opportunities. Of course there are many political and economic challenges on the way through. The dialogue needs to be open, honest and continuous. Given that two or three of your Lordships quoted Mao’s saying that the longest journey begins with a single step, I should like to add another: this journey is a marathon, not a sprint.
Lord Dobbs (Con)
I am delighted and honoured that the debate has been so fruitful; it has overflowed with experience, insight and enthusiasm. I thank every Member of this House who participated. My noble friend Lord Green’s summing up has been most helpful; he has been for so long at the sharp end of things and his time at the coalface has been hugely productive. He deserves his retirement but we shall miss him. I must once again congratulate my noble friends Lord Whitby and Lady Neville-Rolfe who made their first speeches in this House. But my friendly neighbourhood Whip has whispered in my ear—a loud Chinese whisper—that we are out of time. I must apologise, therefore, for being unable to refer to other individual contributions. I hope that noble Lords will understand and forgive me for that. The debate has been a credit to this House. Its messages were put quite superbly and came across loud and clear. The Chinese sometimes say that Britain is a small island, a long way away, which makes a lot of noise. It means at least that they hear us, and that sounds like a pretty good place to start—and also to stop. I beg to move.
Security Services: Supervision
(11 years ago)
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Lord Soley
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to review the supervision of the security services.
Lord Soley
My purpose in bringing this Question before the House is to try to initiate some long-term thinking on the way in which we supervise our security services, the impact of high technology, the pace of change compared to our legislative process, and, importantly, the freedom and security of the internet.
Let me begin by saying that there is no reason to doubt the importance of the security services to the freedom of the people of this country and their safety. I say that not least because of my memory of my involvement in Northern Ireland in the 1980s. Equally we have to be clear about what we are defending. We are defending freedom and a way of life, which, as we all know in this place, means that we have to have a good system of parliamentary accountability for the security services. I do not take the view that accountability has been totally useless, or whatever some people have alleged, but there is considerable room for change, and we ought to start addressing that in some detail, which is why I want a slightly longer debate than we are able to have in this one hour.
My first point to the Minister, to which I hope he will give some long-term thinking, is the pace of change in technology. It is a crucial problem and has been so for some years. Technology, particularly information technology, moves so fast that the ink is hardly dry on the Acts of Parliament that we pass before they are out of date. We really have to find a new way of dealing with this. There are a number of possible options, but the one I have looked at with some interest—and I know that this has been referred to in discussions about the data communications problem—is a hybrid between a Select Committee and a legislative Committee that looks at the constantly changing technology and how to bring changes into effect in existing legislation. We have a number of ways in which we do this in other areas in the House. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which I was on, is one way of doing it; we ought to consider that. This House is very strong on science and technology, and we have here people with a great knowledge of information technology. The suggestion that I make to the Minister—although it is a matter for the House authorities as much as for him, but support from the Government would be helpful—is that he look at whether we could introduce a committee process which would enable a detailed look at the way the rapid change in science and technology affects our legislation, not just on the security services, although clearly that is the most important one in the current context.
The other issue I ought to say in opening is that although I would disagree entirely with Snowden’s release of all this information, which I think was grossly irresponsible, in my humble judgment, if he were put on trial before a jury in this country, he would probably be found not guilty on the basis of a public interest defence. There is probably enough in what he has done that revealed to us things that we did not know about which would give him a good defence in that area. I do not think the Government are necessarily thinking of it, but getting into a battle either with newspapers, Snowden or anybody else on this would likely be a losing battle. It would be far better to address the issue than to deal with it that way. I only wish that Russia and China could have a Snowden as well; actually, it might even the field up a little bit.
I turn now to the internet. Next year, it will be 25 years since the invention of the internet by Sir Tim Berners-Lee. I hope we will find ways of celebrating that because it is, in my judgment, by far the most important way in which the people not just of Britain, but of the world have been able to communicate, and it has been a great engine for freedom. However, what has happened recently has been a gift to some of the more authoritarian countries and some of the more authoritarian organisations which would like to close down the freedom of and access to the internet. One of the things that is most troubling about what has been happening with the security services is this business of interception of the internet services. For example, the Google fibre-optic cable being breached is a matter for concern. One has to ask whether the Prime Minister, any other Minister or the intelligence committee knew that that was about to happen. Was it ever considered by them?
This brings us straight into the third and main point of this debate, which is whether we can improve the way our security services are subject to parliamentary oversight. Much of the comment made outside has been based on an assumption—a wrong assumption—that because the security services, through the Tempora system, have been hoovering up lots of information, all of that information has been read or looked at. It has not been; it is the case that in Britain, you need to have a warrant if you are going to look at the content of these things. What troubles me is that, although you might need a warrant in the UK, you do not necessarily need it overseas. There is a particular problem here in that the communications network between Britain, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the United States—the so-called “five eyes”—are interchanging information all the time and are using our systems. Therefore, it must be said that, given that the United States is now accepting that it intercepted the phone of Angela Merkel, the Chancellor of a friendly and liberal power, now with a very good constitution—not least because we wrote it—the very least that should have happened is that the British Government should have been aware of it. However, It was probably done with some interaction with GCHQ, even if they did not know about it. In other words, I suspect that the inter-linkage between the National Security Agency of the United States, GCHQ here and the other surveillance organisations in New Zealand, Australia and Canada is not really supervised by any of the parliamentary structures in any of these countries.
We have a very real problem, which is far greater than we have had in the past, about how we carry out effective oversight of security organisations operating on all our parts. The Intelligence and Security Committee is doing very good work, and I greatly welcome the way they have opened up their processes in recent times. I am sure the Minister will want to record that. I still say that it is not enough, and that we should have a long, hard look at the way in which we oversee this international co-operation, because it means we will be involved in some of the things we might say we would not do, like tapping the Chancellor of Germany’s telephone. I do not know whether that was done as the result of the ability of the Tempora programme in GCHQ, but a Minister should have known and should have been able to give a clear reply of, “Yes, we did know that” or, “No, we did not know that”. I suspect that the answer is that we did not; in fact, I am almost sure of it, but it might have been done as a result of that co-operation. That linkage is extremely important, and we cannot ignore it.
There are other areas of this supervision that are critical to us. MI5 and MI6 have been quite good recently at opening up and speaking in public, but I can not say the same about GCHQ. GCHQ needs to be much more open than it has been, with all the difficulties that implies. When I suggested a while ago that GCHQ ought to be much more receptive to visits from parliamentarians, whether of this House or the House of Commons, the answer was, “Well, we are nervous about some MPs or Members of the Lords”. My response to that is, “Well, I am nervous about some of the people who work for GCHQ”, more than one of whom I have met and would have some anxiety about. We cannot address it that way; you have to say that they must be accountable to Parliament and we must be able to have those discussions. As MI5 and MI6 have discovered, you can actually deal with the difficult questions and challenges that you face in a parliamentary system. It is that which makes us stand out above the others and makes us different from some of the other countries that are delighted about what Snowden is doing—but he is not, of course, looking at their own systems, which they would desperately hide from all of us.
I have finished slightly within my time, not least because I hope to give a little more time to others and to extend this debate on other days, but I ask the Minister to take away and look at this business of how we legislate for high-technology change in a slow legislative process.
Lord Blencathra (Con)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Soley, on securing this debate. I deeply wish that it were not necessary, but in my view, the legal basis under which the security services operate—RIPA—is no longer fit for purpose. I say that as the Peer who had the privilege to chair the Joint Select Committee on the Draft Communications Bill last year, the so-called “Snoopers’ Charter”. We considered the rapidly changing technology, and no area is changing faster than this. I refer the Minister to our conclusion in paragraph 289, where we recommend the super-affirmative procedure.
I pay tribute to all my colleagues in both Houses who have not been properly and publicly thanked for the excellent job they did on that Joint Select Committee. We made a pretty good job. We decimated the draft Bill and came up instead with workable solutions which were unanimously agreed by the whole committee, even though many of us had very different views on the balance between security and privacy. The conclusions we came to in our report were as follows:
“It is the duty of government—any government—to maintain the safety and security of law-abiding citizens, so that they may go about their lives and their business as far as possible in freedom from fear. This is not only in the public interest; it is in the interest of law-abiding members of the public. For this the law enforcement authorities must be given the tools they need. Reasonable access to some communications data is undoubtedly one of those tools. But the Government also have a duty to respect the right of citizens to privacy, and their ability to go about their lawful activities, including their communications, without avoidable intrusions on their privacy”.
We went on to say:
“Our overall conclusion is that there is a case for legislation which will provide the law enforcement authorities with some further access to communications data, but that the current draft Bill is too sweeping, and goes further than it need or should”.
Those were the conclusions we came to last year in the light of what we knew then. Although Prism and Tempora were at the centre of what we were being asked to look at, we were deliberately kept in the dark about them. It is my personal view that the draft Bill was clearly an attempt to legitimise what the security services were doing already. Of course, they may be talking publicly about it, but they refuse to come to Parliament to tell us about the Bill they were demanding that we pass. This situation cannot be allowed to continue. We need a wide-ranging debate about the balance that we described in our conclusions. We said that they should have reasonable access to some communications, not uncontrolled access to anything they liked or beyond what Parliament intended. This is the key point: whether the security services were technically operating under some part of RIPA is irrelevant. What is wrong, as we have discovered over the past few months, is that they were doing things way beyond the imagination of Parliament and which we did not know about. I have no brief for the Guardian and its general, Polly Toynbee, bleating for someone else’s money to be spent on its favourite causes, but in my opinion the newspaper has done a service by revealing the reach and the extent of what was being done in our name.
I detest traitors who reveal secrets which endanger national security, but there is a greater threat to our freedom when powerful agencies of the state feel that Parliament must be kept in the dark about the parameters under which they operate. I say “parameters” because we do not need to know, nor should we know, the operational techniques and methodology of the security services, but we should have known that they had the Prism and Tempora capability and were using it under rules agreed by Parliament.
In the early 1980s, I sat in a trench in Germany and asked my commanding officer, “What is my mission, Sir?”. “Your mission, Maclean”, he said, “like the rest of us, is to try to hold them back for 48 hours to give the politicians time to nuke ‘em”. In those days, breaching national security could have resulted in the complete nuclear annihilation and destruction of the western world, and that was what traitors like Burgess, Philby and the other Maclean were doing. It is preposterous for senior figures now to suggest that Snowden is in the same league as those traitors. He is not, and that should be obvious. There is also a need for a debate about what is national security now. Clearly a dirty nuclear bomb in central London which renders the capital unusable and uninhabitable for 50 years is a mega threat to national security. However— and I choose my words very carefully so that I am not misunderstood—much as a terrorist bomb that kills 100 people is an abominable evil and we should try to stop it, is it a threat to national security in the same way as nuclear annihilation in the 1980s? Is it a threat that requires the communications of 56 million law-abiding people to be collected in case there is an evil terrorist among them? I do not know, but I do know that this Parliament—your Lordships’ House and the other place—must debate it and collectively strike the balance between reasonable access on the one hand and privacy on the other. We must have replacement legislation for RIPA along the lines recommended by my committee, with proper checks and balances on the security services. We need that debate, it must be wide-ranging, and we need it soon.
Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)
My Lords, I have had the good fortune of working with our intelligence agencies as Secretary of State for Defence, Minister for the Armed Forces, Home Secretary with responsibilities for counterterrorism and Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. I have to say right at the beginning that I know at first hand the good that the security services do and about the lives they have saved. Those are not the hundreds that the noble Lord just referred to, but in one case it was thousands. Overall, it has been many, many thousands of lives in this country. I know also that much of the good that they do is never recognised precisely because it is their job to prevent evil happening. I want to put that on the record right away.
Let us start with the obvious. It is right and fitting in a democracy that all the agencies of the state are accountable to and overseen in an appropriate fashion by the elected representatives of the public. The intelligence agencies are a special case since inevitably much of the work they have to do must be carried out in secret. That does not mean that they are unaccountable. Indeed, over the decades we have constructed an elaborate degree and system of oversight. Their work is carried out in accordance with a strict legal and policy framework which ensures that their activities are authorised, necessary and proportionate—I will come back to this. At the heart of the framework are two Acts of Parliament, not only the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, which was mentioned by the noble Lord, but also the Intelligence Services Act 1994.
A rigorous system of oversight of the activities of intelligence services is already in place, incorporating warranty oversight by Secretaries of State, detailed review by the Interception of Communications Commissioner and the Intelligence Services Commissioner, and scrutiny by the Intelligence and Security Committee. Today, the fundamentals of this system of oversight have been added to by the interviewing of all three heads of the intelligence services in public and on television. That is an extension that is happening even as we speak. The fundamentals of the system of oversight and accountability have not changed, and indeed we have been assured of this by the Foreign Secretary himself.
What is the present controversy all about? If the fundamentals and the objectives of the intelligence services have not changed, what is it that has changed? It is the world that has changed, and it has done so exponentially. That is not least in terms of electronic communications, as referred to by my noble friend Lord Soley. Cyberspace is now an environment that permeates everything we do. It is an environment that offers great opportunities for information, communication, personal empowerment and advances for good, but it is also an environment that offers equally great opportunities for the bad: for, among others, international crime, terrorism, paedophiles and hate crimes. These, and others intent on malevolent action, no longer communicate directly using a simple telephone line from A to B. Put simply, they now communicate across the world by voice over ISP, the internet, by e-mail, by text or by concealment on web pages. That is what has changed, and crucially, all of these traverse the globe. They are transnational, not even international. All those whose activities are of malevolent intent use these electronic means.
I can tell noble Lords that when I was Home Secretary I looked at a number of plots, on some occasions between 40 and 60. Not one was confined to this country alone. All of them involved communication between people in at least two countries, while a major one involved people in 20 countries. That is the nature of the world in which we now live. The job of the intelligence agencies has thus been made infinitely harder in maintaining surveillance. I can tell the House that Sir Iain Lobban has only just told today’s hearing that we have to, “anticipate, discover, analyse, investigate and respond, and we have to do that globally”. That is him speaking for GCHQ. How can I tell noble Lords that? It is because I have an iPad which communicates to me in real time via the BBC what is being said in another place and communicates that simultaneously around the world. That is the world we are now living in and which our intelligence agencies have to cope with. They are faced with an infinitely greater task than ever. They are still looking for needles in a haystack, but the haystack is now global; it is huge in size.
We have been assured by the Minister that the nature of the surveillance and the fundamental principles underlying it have not have changed, and therefore in order to discover who is communicating with whom, the security services have to operate under RIPA, and in order to look at any content, they must have a warrant from a Home Secretary; that has not changed. So it is incumbent upon us to recognise that while information should not be kept unnecessarily out of the public domain, a balance must be struck. In order to safeguard sensitive methods and sources and to ensure that the secret intelligence agencies stay secret, some of that oversight must take place behind closed doors.
The intelligence agencies need oversight and scrutiny, but they need to operate in the real world as it exists today. We may not have caught up with this real world, but this can be no excuse for them because, ultimately, the lives of our fellow citizens depend on the intelligence agencies catching up with the real world, and as I said, thousands of lives have been saved. So they require scrutiny and supervision, but they also need our understanding and support in the vital work they do for this country.
Lord Strasburger (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Soley, for initiating this important debate. Let me start with two tributes. First, I pay tribute to our security services which do an excellent job of keeping us safe. My second tribute goes jointly to the American whistleblower Edward Snowden and to the Guardian, which has published his astonishing revelations. Both have been brave and highly responsible—all but one of the Guardian articles was approved in advance by the Government—and were it not for them, we and the rest of the world would still be in the dark about what the NSA and GCHQ are up to.
This scandal, for that is what it is, is not the fault of GCHQ, which naturally will grab all the tools it can until it is stopped. The blame falls on those in this country and in America who should have been watching over the spies. In the UK, I am talking about the Cabinet in this Government and the previous Government, the National Security Council and the Intelligence and Security Committee. These bodies are supposed to oversee the security services. It is their job to ensure that the British people are not only safe but that their privacy is protected and that intrusions into our private lives are proportionate and justified. In the case of GCHQ’s Project Tempora, they have all failed miserably.
The only way such highly intrusive powers can be granted in a democracy is with the informed consent of the people, via Parliament. Parliament was certainly not informed about Tempora, nor has it given its consent. We parliamentarians knew nothing about the way GCHQ was helping itself to the private data of every citizen until the Guardian exposed it. The Cabinet, the NSC and the ISC have all been asleep at the wheel while GCHQ ran out of control.
The ISC, which has the most intimate access to the security services and should have known what was going on, lacks resources and the skills needed to understand the technologies being used. It has clearly failed to ask the awkward questions it should have been asking. The ISC must be unfit for purpose, even in its recently modified guise, and there are questions about its independence. Parliament should not have had to rely on a whistleblower to reveal Tempora’s massive abuse of power.
Furthermore, the Home Office has deliberately ensured that Parliament is kept in the dark. Last year, I sat on the Select Committee on the draft Communications Data Bill, under the very able chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Blencathra, and listened to Home Office officials repeatedly justify the Bill by adamantly asserting that there was a 25% shortfall in the communications they could collect and that this gap was hampering the fight against terrorism. At no time did they disclose, not even in the two private sessions, that for years GCHQ has been collecting far more data than that Bill would have given it and that there is no shortfall. That deliberate deception of Parliament is an affront to democracy, and those officials should be seriously considering their positions.
So what needs to happen now? First, there needs to be a vigorous public debate about what we are prepared to allow our security services to do and the boundaries of their reach into our private lives. I hope that the outcome would be permission for intrusive and up-to-date powers of interception for the police and security services where there are convincing grounds for suspicion of serious crime. Equally there needs to be a strong prohibition of mass untargeted surveillance of ordinary, innocent citizens. There will be a need for new legislation to replace RIPA, which was full of deliberate loopholes when it was written and is now hopelessly out of date. There needs to be very strong and sceptical oversight which reports directly to Parliament and has the necessary resources and skills and real teeth. Most of all, we need a sea change in the Government’s approach to the trade-off between liberty and control.
The Snowden cat is out of the bag. He has 58,000 secret documents, and so far the Guardian has published excerpts from just 17 of them. There must be much more to come. It will no longer do for the Government to sit Canute-like on the beach while a tsunami of further revelations engulfs their old policy of sticking their fingers in their ears and muttering that they do not discuss security matters. They must stop trying to shoot the messenger by attacking the Guardian. They must also stop pretending that Britain has the best oversight of its security services in the world when that oversight has spectacularly failed to spot and prevent intrusive surveillance of every citizen without Parliament’s knowledge and consent.
Our Government must now engage in the public debate about what spying the people will or will not tolerate—a debate that has been happening for some time in America, from the President down, and also in France and Germany. The status quo is no longer an option. It is time for the Government to engage fully in the debate.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)
My Lords, I, too, congratulate my noble friend Lord Soley on obtaining this debate. Like him and my noble friend Lord Reid of Cardowan, I admire the work of the intelligence and security services. They have averted substantial terrorist threats and, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, I think that is of national interest. I also understand and agree with what my noble friends Lord Reid and Lord Soley said about the challenges of new technology. However, I will follow what the noble Lord, Lord Strasburger, has just. Some recent reports have shown the inadequacy of the scrutiny of those services by the Intelligence and Security Committee as currently comprised. That is what I want to concentrate on in my few remarks today.
I am not surprised, frankly, at what has happened. For four years, I served as the only representative of this House on the nine-person committee and experienced some of the difficulties of scrutinising the intelligence and security services. I had some radical ideas and some changes to propose and managed, along with others, to persuade the Government to increase the number of committee members from this House to two. I was surprised, although maybe I should not have been, that I was summarily removed from the committee by the coalition. What was even more disturbing was that no Labour Peer was appointed by the Prime Minister in my place—no Labour Peer served on that committee. I have great admiration for the many qualities of the two Peers appointed. However, I doubt if my old friend, the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, and the noble Lord, Lord Butler, a former head of the Civil Service, have at the top of the list of their qualities a reputation for radical and challenging questioning. In fact, two more stalwart pillars of the establishment would be very hard to find.
The ISC is, as I understand it, being reconstituted and is to become a joint parliamentary committee rather than a committee appointed by the Prime Minister. However, I must say, with respect to the Minister, that the secrecy surrounding the way in which this committee is to be constituted would do MI6 proud. It is not the open procedure that Parliament ought to have. Can the Minister, in replying, clarify exactly what the composition of the committee will be, how it will be appointed and how it will operate? My view is that, like any other Joint Committee, the House of Lords should have roughly half of the members, especially as we are going to be bearing half of the cost. I suggest that the size of the committee might be increased to 11 members, with five from the Lords and six from the Commons. The latter would include the chair, who should be a member of the opposition party, like the chair of the Public Accounts Committee, to give the committee greater credibility. I have great respect for the current chair, Sir Malcolm Rifkind—I have known him for 50 years, since he was young man—but, to be honest, it does not instil confidence among the public and in Parliament that the committee will undertake radical and effective scrutiny when you have someone in the chair who has so recently been Foreign Secretary and had those kind of responsibilities himself.
In order to ensure that the committee is seen as effective and impartial, the members of the committee need to be chosen by as democratic a procedure as we can possibly devise. We are not the most democratic House, but at least we can try to work on some kind of democratic procedure so that the members are accountable to both Houses. I am asking the Minister to cover this in his reply, but suggest that if we had five Peers, two might be chosen by the Labour group, two by the government parties and one by the Cross-Benchers. They would have an opportunity to report back to the groups on what is happening and what their experience has been. Of course, it is up to the Commons to decide how its members are chosen, but I hope there would be some degree of accountability.
Further changes are of course needed in the operation of the committee. For example, when I was on the committee, we had no staff to carry out investigations. We were not allowed to appoint staff to go into the departments and carry out investigations on our behalf. Previously, the committee had an investigations officer, but that was stopped by the Government because, no doubt, he was investigating too much. The committee needs some capacity in that respect.
The changes in membership should be made first. For the committee to have some credibility, it needs to have some accountability. I hope that the Minister will give noble Lords a clear indication in his reply that there are going to be changes in the constitution, composition and operation of the Intelligence and Security Committee. If we do not get those kinds of assurances, some in the media and among the public will continue to take that view that somehow, in some ways, the Government have got something to hide.
Lord Judd (Lab)
My Lords, I join other noble Lords in thanking my noble friend Lord Soley most warmly for having had the courage to initiate this debate. If anything has been established in the very important deliberations so far in this debate, it is that there is a need for a proper, full debate, and a much wider public debate, about the issues at stake. If nothing else, my noble friend is to be congratulated on that.
I should say at the outset that I have, of course, been a Defence Minister and a Foreign Office Minister. I was a Defence Minister in the days when we had service Ministers, and I was very proud to be Minister for the Navy. As such, I was regularly briefed by the head of intelligence in the Navy, who was a very enjoyable admiral, so it was a good conversation. I shall always savour the day on which he came to see me with his briefings and said, “Minister, I think I ought to let you know that the head of the Russian Navy is describing you as Cold War Warrior Judd”. I am not sure that that would be immediately recognised by all my colleagues and the rest, but I will always savour that occasion.
I grew up in a non-conformist Christian family, and one of the realities of growing up in that kind of culture was that from a very young age I was encouraged to realise that, whatever I might do with my life, God knew everything. My theological thinking has rather moved forwards since those days, but I do not think that at any point in my evolution have I seen GCHQ or the NSA as God. That is the point. God was there as a moral balance in life. He was your conscience. There is immense power in the hands of these authorities now, but no one—including, I believe, most of those working in them—would begin to believe that they are the moral authority of the world; they are there to preserve security.
I have been convinced for a long time that if you make a hard analysis of the threats that face us as a nation, the combination of terrorism, the fact that small numbers of people can do terrible things and the increasing accessibility of the material for mass destruction is a nightmare. One only has to think of the whole business of germ warfare, crude nuclear weapons and the rest to imagine what could happen. If I have one comment for the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, after his very powerful speech, it is that I am not quite sure how he comes to his conclusion in the equation he put before us, because I do not think that it is just a matter of more localised, small incidents or nuclear war. I think that there is a whole gradation in between and that the real dangers lie in that area. That is why intelligence is indispensable. For a long time, I have felt that our security lies very much in the realm of intelligence and in ensuring that it is properly staffed and properly resourced.
Therefore, going back to my point about God, if I may, it is all the more important that everyone can be certain that in the leadership of the intelligence agencies there are people committed, second to none, to the principles of liberal democracy and freedom that they are defending. It is important that that commitment and understanding permeates the whole organisation and that the internalised culture is that what it is doing is defending freedom, democracy and a decent society. That is a terribly easy thing to say but a terribly difficult thing to achieve.
I believe that we need to look very hard at the criteria for selection in the intelligence services, the training and the leadership at all levels. Otherwise, the excitement, the intoxication and the challenges of the task could become dominant; there is also the danger of counterproductivity.
I emphasise that, like others who have spoken, I believe this country owes a tremendous tribute to the courage and dedication of the overwhelming majority of people working in the security services and what they do on our behalf. I believe, therefore, that it is our duty not only to scrutinise, which we are doing today, but to stand firmly by those who have this concept of responsibility and of what they really are there to do. We must deal very severely with those who abuse that task or who indulge in things that I believe could ultimately be described as treason. Extremists work best when there is a culture of sympathy. We must never allow things to happen which accentuate that culture and which introduce more doubt among thinking people, thus opening up the opportunity for extremists to recruit and to strengthen their cause, and I am afraid that we are in danger of that happening.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
My Lords, I add my thanks to my noble friend Lord Soley for securing this debate. It is timely as today, as my noble friend Lord Reid of Cardowan has graphically pointed out, is the first public hearing for the Intelligence and Security Committee in front of the cameras with the intelligence chiefs. Of course, it is timely also because of the recent spate of stories in our national press about some alleged activities of our intelligence services that has raised the issue of oversight and the effectiveness or otherwise of current legislation.
There have already been significant changes in legislation over the past year or so relating to the Intelligence and Security Committee. These have led to the committee reporting not to the Prime Minister of the day but to Parliament, which also now has the final word on who will be the members of the committee, and to the committee in future choosing its own chairman from among its own members rather than that being a decision for the Prime Minister.
The Justice and Security Act 2013 now requires the intelligence agencies to respond to requests from the committee for information and to provide the information that it is seeking. Previously, the agencies could decline to give the information requested. Included in the information that now has to be provided if sought is that regarding nationally significant operations. The committee is also now in a position, which it was not before, to send its staff into GCHQ, MI5 and MI6 to look at papers and files that relate to an investigation that it is undertaking, and it is for the committee and the staff concerned to decide what it is they want to see. Those are significant recent changes as far as the powers of the ISC are concerned.
In addition, we have the two commissioners, the Intelligence Services Commissioner and the Interception of Communications Commissioner, with responsibilities for overseeing the performance of the agencies, including GCHQ, under Parts 2 and 3, and under Part 1 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act respectively.
My noble friend Lord Soley referred to the advances in technology and the way in which the speed of technological innovation can quickly overtake Acts of Parliament set up to define the limits of surveillance. As I understand it, the Intelligence and Security Committee intends to conduct an investigation into whether the Human Rights Act, the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act and the Intelligence Services Act, and the interaction between them and the policies and procedures that underpin them, remain relevant with regard to the balance between security, liberty and privacy, given the significant advances in technology over the past few years.
An investigation of that nature is important, and we also need to be sure that the oversight arrangements are operating effectively, and are such—and remain such—as to inspire public confidence that what our intelligence and security services are doing is what they should be doing and are authorised to be doing, and is proportionate, not what they may have the capability of doing, which is something else. Co-operation is vital in the field of intelligence gathering, not least in the sharing of information with friendly countries and allies. Any activity that calls into question that trust could have serious security implications.
At a political level the intelligence agencies are ultimately responsible to the Prime Minister, but on a day-to-day basis it is Secretaries of State who are expected to balance national security considerations against the need to protect against an intrusion on individuals’ right to privacy. In the House of Commons on 10 June this year, the Foreign Secretary said that ministerial oversight and independent scrutiny was there as well as the scrutiny of the Intelligence and Security Committee, and that,
“the idea that operations are carried out without ministerial oversight, somehow getting around UK law, is mistaken”.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/6/13; col. 37.]
Opening e-mails or tapping a phone requires a warrant in the United Kingdom, and effective legislation and oversight arrangements should ensure that that is what happens. However, in the light of the Foreign Secretary’s statement that the idea that operations are carried out without ministerial oversight is mistaken, will the Minister confirm that that statement also covered any operations that may be conducted by or with the knowledge of our agencies outside the UK, whether in relation to United Kingdom bodies or citizens or to bodies or citizens of other countries?
We all recognise the importance of the work that our intelligence and security services undertake in protecting us against criminal and terrorist activity, international cyberattack and international global terrorism, and in ensuring our national security. We also recognise the reality that nearly all operations that have foiled a terrorist plot in this country in recent years have been dependent on information from communications data. I suspect that we will never fully appreciate or understand the debt we owe to our intelligence and security services since, for obvious reasons, the detail about what they do and how they do it cannot be in the full public domain.
It was Sir David Omand, a former head of GCHQ, who said that democratic legitimacy demanded that where new methods of intelligence gathering and use were to be introduced, they should be on a firm legal basis and rest on parliamentary and public understanding of what is involved, even though the operational details of the sources and method used would normally need to remain secret.
A number of issues and concerns have been raised in the debate, not least by my noble friend Lord Soley, who also made some proposals for change. I very much hope that the Minister will go as far as he feels he can in responding to them.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con)
My Lords, I join other noble Lords in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Soley, for presenting this topic for debate, and I am grateful to all noble Lords who spoke so eloquently in this debate. I think that noble Lords will understand that, in line with the practice of successive Governments, I shall not comment on specific issues relating to the work of the intelligence agencies. I shall focus on the breadth and depth of supervision of the UK’s intelligence agencies, and the fact that they are second to none and—given recent reforms extending parliamentary oversight, of which this House is very much aware—fit for purpose.
Secret intelligence helps protect national security, tackle terrorists and stop criminals. But this does not mean the activities of the intelligence services go unchecked. Successive Governments have rightly introduced measures to ensure that the use of intrusive powers needed to obtain intelligence are governed by a strict legal and policy framework compatible with the Human Rights Act. This ensures that intelligence activities are authorised, necessary and proportionate, and provides robust statutory oversight.
Oversight starts within the intelligence agencies themselves, which enforce rigorous internal controls. Their recruitment and training procedures are designed to ensure that those operating within them can be trusted to do so lawfully and ethically. A culture of compliance with the letter and spirit of the law pervades everything they do. Noble Lords have rightly paid tribute to the work of those in the intelligence agencies. In their most recent reports, both the Intelligence Services Commissioner and the Interception of Communications Commissioner commended the integrity and professionalism of the agencies’ staff.
In addition, of course, Secretaries of State are accountable to Parliament and the public for the agencies’ actions. They take decisions on whether to authorise the use of intrusive powers by the intelligence agencies. Senior members of the judiciary are appointed as Interception of Communications and Intelligence Services Commissioners to oversee the process of authorisation of intelligence activity, which includes reviewing the decisions of Secretaries of State and reporting to the Prime Minister on their work.
Several honourable Members in the other place recently urged the commissioners to play a more visible role. I agree. Oversight must be seen to be effective. That is why, as noble Lords mentioned—indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Reid of Cardowan, gave us an up-to-date briefing on what was going on down the other end—the Intelligence and Security Committee is, for the first time, holding an open evidence session with the three heads of the intelligence agencies. It is because of this landmark occasion that the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, as a member of the ISC, told me that, contrary to his wish, he would not be able to participate in today’s debate. However, we should remember that so much of the commissioners’ work—and, of course, that of the ISC—involves extremely sensitive information and that there will be limits to what they can responsibly report on publicly.
Separately, the Intelligence and Security Committee examines the policy, administration, past operations and expenditure of the intelligence agencies. Noble Lords will remember that earlier this year the Justice and Security Act significantly reformed and strengthened the committee’s powers. As a result of that Act the intelligence agencies are more accountable to Parliament and no longer have the ability to withhold information from the ISC. The new ISC has a broader remit, extra powers to consider past operational activity, and twice the resources. Those reforms were not conjured from thin air but followed public consultation on the best way to modernise judicial, independent and parliamentary scrutiny of the intelligence agencies, while allowing them to get on with keeping us safe.
The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, asked what the composition of the ISC will be and how it will be brought together. I can say that with the new appointments process, although the PM nominates the members after consultation with the Leader of the Opposition, Parliament will appoint the ISC. The reforms in the Justice and Security Act mean that the ISC will itself select its chair. Should the committee wish to nominate a member of the Opposition as the chair, it will be free to do so. I hope that that will reassure the noble Lord.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I am grateful to the Minister for that. However, can he clear up the point I raised about the balance of membership between the two Houses? As I understand it, we are being required to provide 50% of the running costs. We are also used to Joint Committees of both Houses having roughly equal membership. Can he assure us that that will be the case with this committee?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
If I sought to reassure the noble Lord, I might make a mistake. However, I will check that out and write to him. The noble Lord makes a very good point as a loyal Member of this House, and I hope that I will be able to give him a positive answer.
We have to give these new arrangements time to bed down and to prove their effectiveness. I am certain that the committee will succeed in giving Parliament and the public confidence that the Executive and the agencies are properly held to account. As the noble Lord, Lord Soley, said, the whole business of keeping legislation up to date is a matter for the House authorities, and he made an interesting suggestion about how we can keep pace with technical change. However, that is a matter not only for the Government but for the House authorities as well.
Supervision does not stop with the ISC. The courts provide an independent avenue for anyone who wishes to complain about intelligence activity. Anyone who feels that they have been subject to improper use of intrusive powers by the intelligence agencies can complain to the Investigatory Powers Tribunal, which provides independent judicial oversight. If it decides that legislation has been breached or human rights infringed, it can quash warrants, order the destruction of records and award financial compensation.
One need only look at the range of activity this year alone to see that the system works. The ISC has published reports on foreign involvement in UK critical national infrastructure, communications data, and GCHQ’s alleged activity in relation to PRISM. It is now reviewing the tragic killing in Woolwich in May and will begin another review next year into intelligence legislation, which may assist with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Soley. The Interception Commissioner is investigating reports related to interception following the Snowden leaks. A judicial review of the police’s decision to stop David Miranda in August is currently being heard by the courts, and the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation—David Anderson QC—will then report on the police’s use of terrorism powers in that case.
The Investigatory Powers Tribunal is considering several cases arising from the Snowden leaks that have been brought by parties including Liberty and Privacy International. If these investigations and legal cases lead to criticisms, recommendations for change, or adverse judgments, the Government will listen, reflect and respond. This is how effective oversight works, and this is how we can best ensure that Parliament and the public can have confidence in the work of intelligence agencies while protecting the secrets that need to remain secret.
I will now comment on some of the points made by noble Lords in the course of the debate. I welcomed all the contributions, which were good. I do not necessarily share the views of my noble friend Lord Blencathra on the proportionality of different levels of terrorism. I thank the pre-legislative Joint Committee on the draft Communications Data Bill, which did Parliament great justice in its scrutiny. The ISC undertook similar scrutiny of that Bill; it took evidence from the intelligence agencies and was briefed on GCHQ capabilities in this area. From its informed position, it considered there was still a communications gap requiring legislation. The noble Lord, Lord Reid of Cardowan, paid right and proper tribute—
Lord Reid of Cardowan
Given the Minister’s accolades for all the work done by both the ISC and the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, can he tell us what has happened to that Bill? What is the blockage?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I do not think that there is a blockage, but I think it is sensible that we reflect on the two committees’ contributions to the legislation. No doubt the Government will bring forward legislation in due course to cover the gap that was detected in our ability to handle modern communications.
Lord Reid of Cardowan
I am grateful, but given that a gap has been identified, that means there is a gap in counterterrorism, surveillance and national security. Can the Minister explain why it is taking so long to reflect on that, when so much work has already been done? Will he comment on the suggestion that the blockage is actually the Deputy Prime Minister?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I think that the noble Lord is being a little mischievous on this particular issue. Heaven forfend that he should be so. He knows the background against which the issue is being debated. All I can say is that the challenge to be effective in the real world, and maintain a proper balance, is what the Government are seeking to do. That is why we are so supportive of having proper scrutiny of the security services. I have been interrupted. I hope noble Lords will forgive me, but I must rush because otherwise I will run out of time.
I reassure my noble friend Lord Strasburger that the ISC has very much increased resources, and is now responsible not just to the Prime Minister but to Parliament itself. The communications data gap relates to what is happening in the UK. GCHQ is a foreign intelligence-gathering agency, and this is its core mission. The Communications Data Bill focused on the communications gap in this country.
The noble Lord, Lord Judd, made one of his usual passionate contributions. I noted his call for a longer debate on these issues. I would welcome this. However, the shortage of time has not inhibited noble Lords in the expressiveness of their contributions.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for his contribution. It is not technical capacity that governs intelligence gathering but the need for intelligence. I cannot comment on the Foreign Secretary’s statement applying to overseas activities, but all of GCHQ’s work is carried out in accordance with a strict legal and policy framework which ensures that its activities are legal, necessary, proportionate and targeted. I hope that we can say that of all the activity that is done in our name by these important parts of our national security apparatus.
Armed Forces: Legal Challenge
(11 years ago)
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Lord Faulks
To move that this House takes note of the case for protecting the armed forces from vulnerability to legal challenge.
Lord Faulks (Con)
My Lords, it is entirely appropriate that today, as we approach Remembrance Sunday, we should be discussing the Armed Forces. The subject of the debate is their vulnerability to legal challenge or what is sometimes described as the increased juridification of military conflict.
It is an enormous privilege to bring the debate to your Lordships’ House. I am conscious of the fact that included in the list of those to speak in the debate are noble and learned Lords, noble and gallant Lords, and others with real experience of the issues which this debate involves and who can enlighten your Lordships’ House. I, on the other hand, am a mere lawyer. To be more specific, I am a barrister who has spent a considerable amount of the past 20 years of my professional life patrolling the borders of the law of negligence, acting for public authorities, the emergency services and professionals—but not the Ministry of Defence. I was also special adviser to the Department of Constitutional Affairs on the compensation culture.
The law of armed conflict is well established. It is no part of my argument today that we should be resiling from the Geneva convention or any other of our humanitarian international obligations or that war should in any way be a law-free zone. However, what concerns me and many others is the encroachment of our national law into the way our Armed Forces conduct themselves. The law of negligence in particular is far better suited to civilian life, such as accidents at work, or events that take place in a controlled environment, or at least one capable of being controlled.
The recent publication by Policy Exchange of The Fog of War provides a penetrating analysis of the way in which the law has developed and reaches the conclusion that,
“recent legal developments have undermined the Armed Forces’ ability to operate effectively on the battlefield”.
If this is correct, we must question whether it is time for a change in the law.
Many noble Lords will be aware of the Supreme Court’s decision this year in the case of Smith v Ministry of Defence, in which, by a majority of four to three, the court concluded that the claim should go to trial so that a judge could decide on the evidence whether the claims were covered by the doctrine of combat immunity, or could give rise to a claim based on the Human Rights Act. There are a number of reasons why I will not go into the detail of the facts of the case. First, it is not concluded. Secondly, it used to be a convention, not sufficiently honoured, that Parliament did not criticise judges. Thirdly, whatever the law should be, those who brought these claims have suffered bereavement or serious injuries and can only have our profound sympathy. Finally, even those like me who are alarmed by the implications of this judgment could not but admire the detailed and thorough analysis of the issues contained in the speech of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, who spoke for the majority in the case.
However, the issues of principle which arise from that case are important and should be debated. Are judges to blame for the current situation? It is undoubtedly the case that the approach of the courts to difficult questions of immunity from claims has changed. For example, in Hughes v National Union of Mineworkers in 1991, the Court of Appeal decided that police officers who were quelling serious public disorder should not be liable for negligence on public policy grounds. The decision stemmed in part from the case of Hill v the Chief Constable of West Yorkshire in 1988, in which the House of Lords Appellate Committee decided that the police were immune from claims in negligence for failing to catch the Yorkshire Ripper, albeit that they may well have made mistakes which, if avoided, could have saved the life of the last victim or victims of Peter Sutcliffe.
The law in relation to combat immunity is judge-made. It was explained most recently in the cases of Mulcahy in 1996 and in Multiple Claimants v Ministry of Defence in 2003. It is not a neat and tidy area of the law. Its scope seems likely to be very closely confined in the future. It must be acknowledged that rather few of our judges have served in the military, whereas in the post-war period almost all would have done so. But this does not explain entirely the opening up of the law. Sir Alan Moses, in his thoughtful preface to The Fog of Law, suggested that the expectations of the public in terms of the care which should be taken in ensuring the safety of the military was a significant factor in judges’ thinking and that they probably reflected what much of the general public might think about the issue.
Another explanation is provided by Professor Anthony Forster, who points to the fact that recent developments have been,
“wars of choice rather than wars of national survival”.
One of the difficulties in the Smith case and its predecessors was the question of where so-called battlefield immunity begins and ends. There is no obvious reason why a common or garden accident which takes place at a training establishment should be any different from one that happens in an ordinary factory environment, although this may not apply to some of the more extreme forms of training which are necessary to be ready to fight in theatre. But if the doctrine of combat immunity is insufficiently precise for judges’ tastes, the effect of the Supreme Court finding is that a court will then have to examine in detail whether there was fault and, if so, whether that fault fell one side or another of the rather uncertain line which defines combat immunity or, as the Supreme Court preferred, whether it would be fair, just, and reasonable to conclude that no duty of care was owed.
In practice, this means a trial with witnesses having to justify their decisions and actions. I have recently been acting for the fire brigade in a case in which it was alleged that the incident commander was negligent in fighting a major fire in which firefighters died. It was suggested to him that the fire should not have been fought at all or that he should have ensured the evacuation of firefighters much earlier. Watching him being told that he was responsible for the death of his comrades who were close friends was an unedifying experience. That is what will happen with the military even if the case ultimately results in the exculpation of those concerned. I am driven to agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mance, who gave a minority judgment in Smith. He said that the approach taken by the majority,
“will in my view make extensive litigation almost inevitable after, as well as quite possibly during and even before, any active service operations undertaken by the British Army. It is likely to lead to the judicialisation of war, in sharp contrast with Stark J’s dictum in Shaw Savill (1940) that ‘war cannot be controlled or conducted by judicial tribunals’”.
One of the lawyers who is acting for a number of claimants in this rapidly growing field—and it is growing fast—was quoted as saying this in the Times on 19 October of this year:
“The court is the best place to decide these very difficult issues”.
I could not agree less. The studied calm of the Royal Courts of Justice, with vast numbers of documents and the luxury of time in which to consider issues, not to mention the benefit of hindsight, is a world away from the field of military activities. No fog, my Lords, in Court 12. Barristers like me, whose experience of military matters is restricted to an undistinguished period in the combined cadet force at school, will be seeking to second-guess military commanders facing life-or-death decisions based inevitably on less-than-perfect intelligence and almost certainly on less-than-ideal equipment at any one time. I am afraid that it is simply not enough to suggest that the courts can, in each individual case, sort out what is a purely policy matter, and therefore not capable of review by the courts, from a matter that crosses the boundary into combat immunity. The very process of deciding those issues will involve challenging military decisions on procurement, tactics and deployment, whether on a macro or micro scale. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mance, is surely right.
We are thus entering a period where there is a risk that military decisions will be questioned and thus potentially affected by the decisions of judges. Civil servants are told to consider, when doing their work, to have regard to the hypothetical judge on their shoulder. Our Armed Forces will have such a judge with them, to paraphrase Winston Churchill, on the sea and in the oceans, in the air, on the beaches, on the landing grounds, in the streets and in the hills.
How does the Human Rights Act help? Clearly, the Strasbourg Court is not the appropriate venue in which to decide matters of fact and judgment. However, it is possible that the European Court of Human Rights may decide that any restriction on the liability of the Ministry of Defence potentially or actually violates Article 2 of the convention—or some other article, possibly Articles 3 or 8. I have real difficulty in understanding what Article 2, the “Right to Life”, really means in the context of armed conflict. There is something strangely poignant when the mother of a soldier says to the press, after the decision in Smith, “Now all those soldiers have the right to life”. Perhaps that is the effect on the public’s mind of the decision.
So what can the Government do about this? They can legislate to define combat immunity. They can consider reviving Crown immunity, something that is open to them under Section 10 of the Crown Proceedings Act 1947. They can legislate fully to exempt the MoD from corporate manslaughter and corporate homicide. They can derogate from the European Convention on Human Rights during deployed operations, as other countries have done. These are just some of a number of recommendations that Policy Exchange has put forward.
In answer to the noble and gallant Lord Craig of Radley, on 23 October, the Minister said that the Government were hoping,
“that the Court will provide clarification of combat immunity”.—[Official Report, 23/10/13; col. 1003.]
Whatever clarification is forthcoming, it will not be a solution to the problem that I have attempted to identify.
Nothing that I suggest should in any way derogate from the military covenant or diminish the Armed Forces Compensation Scheme, which provides compensation on a no-fault basis. However, to treat our brave men and women as subject to the assessment of the courts in the same way as a factory owner who has failed to fence his machinery is in my view highly inappropriate. The courts have given their response. It is not, in my judgment, the right one, and it is time for the Government and Parliament to respond.
Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, for bringing forward this important debate. I declare an interest as the chair of the Association of Military Court Advocates.
The mood of this House in the debate on the prospect of military involvement in Syria demonstrated a response to public opinion which has become less enamoured of military campaigns. The public are hugely supportive of the lower levels of the Armed Forces but less confident of the political and senior military leadership. There remains from the historic concept of Crown immunity a statutory power under Section 2 of the Crown Proceedings (Armed Forces) Act 1987 to prevent any proceedings in tort by servicemen and their families against the Crown altogether. It has never been invoked or brought into effect, no doubt because it would be political death for any Minister or his party to deny relief to the injured and bereaved arising out of the unpopular wars of choice in Iraq and Afghanistan. That power remains, however, as a backstop if this country ever again becomes involved in a general conflict with a large number of casualties.
Since there is currently no general immunity from suit, the Ministry of Defence must deal with actions, based on Article 2 of the European Convention, or on negligence at common law, brought by relatives of those killed, by injured servicemen, and by those who have been detained by British forces.
The Ministry of Defence has fiercely resisted the application of the European Convention on Human Rights in theatres of war. From my participation in the Baha Mousa case, I recall a brave officer in the Army Legal Service being reprimanded by a top civil servant in the MoD for daring to suggest that the treatment he observed in Basra of Iraqi prisoners—being hooded, hands bound, kneeling in the dirt—could amount to inhuman and degrading treatment in breach of Article 3. He was told, dismissively, by the MoD that, if he were right that the European Convention applied in Iraq, the Government should make him Attorney-General in place of the then Attorney-General who had advised otherwise.
It was the unanimous view of the Supreme Court in the Smith case that not only captured prisoners, but service men and women who have relinquished almost total control over their lives to the state, can claim the protection of the convention, even when serving outside the United Kingdom or Europe. The debate was about the scope of Article 2— that everyone’s right to life should be protected by law. In what area is it fair, just and reasonable to extend the protection of that article to service men and women? It used to be common ground that matters of high policy and the exercise of political judgment in the use of resources were not justiciable, but nor were decisions taken by commanders in the heat of battle.
In claims based on negligence, the fallback defence of the MoD has been the ill defined concept of “combat immunity”—an exemption from tortious liability in the context of actual or imminent armed conflict. Its boundaries have not been settled, and it was held that this can only be determined on the facts as found at trial. The majority in Smith were prepared to countenance actions based on inadequacies of procurement, of training, and of material which have led to death and injury.
The purpose of the paper, The Fog of Law, published by Policy Exchange, is to criticise the very limited area of potential liability outlined by the majority in Smith. It seeks, in my view, to undermine the role of the judiciary by complaining of “judicial creep”. The authors argue that the commander in the field will be looking over his shoulder; they say that his ability to act with flexibility and determination will be threatened. I consider that to be nonsense, in the light of the views expressed across the Supreme Court in the case of Smith.
The authors of The Fog of Law reflect the views of the Ministry of Defence as demonstrated in its very interesting study entitled, Risk: The Implications of Current Attitudes to Risk for the Joint Operational Concept, published in the Guardian on 26 September 2013. That MoD paper refers to the benefits which can accrue from a “who dares wins” approach to military action, an approach which will encourage individuals to accept risk. It requires positive action by the MoD to mitigate the effect of risk aversion, to preserve the utility of the Armed Forces,
“by influencing those who might mistakenly place crippling restrictions on our actions”.
The study goes further, suggesting a series of changes in MoD thinking and practices, which include reducing the profile of the repatriation ceremonies. The Royal Borough of Wootton Bassett is clearly not its favourite town. It wishes to,
“reduce public sensitivity to the penalties inherent in military operations”.
“Penalties” is Civil Service speak for death and injury. Its future work, it states, is to collect evidence,
“to demonstrate the latitude offered by existing legal frameworks”.
Wittingly or not, the authors of The Fog of Law paper seek to provide that evidence. I consider The Fog of Law paper to be a wholly unjustified and over-the-top attack on the standards of justice which should protect those who volunteer for the armed services.
Recently, in September, before a judicially led defence department inquiry in Washington DC, I was proud to outline the leadership role the United Kingdom had taken, both in the courts and in the Armed Forces Acts passed by this Parliament, in applying the rule of law to the military sphere, not least in the revolution of its courts martial processes. A series of cases from Findlay onwards in the European Court of Human Rights led to changes that are welcomed not merely in the services but in the services judiciary. It would be sad to see the Ministry of Defence take a backward step.
It is certainly not the role of the judges to run the Army, but the decision in Smith is miles away from that. The days when our Armed Forces were effectively isolated and self-contained, standing slightly apart from public attitudes, as the MoD paper succinctly puts it, are well and truly over. In a competitive market, the services require recruits of sufficient number and quality to operate increasingly sophisticated equipment and to endure the harshest of conditions. They should have all such measures of protection against death or injury and all such guaranteed human rights as is fair, just and reasonable having regard to the inevitable risks they have volunteered to run. A democratic society demands no less.
Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)
My Lords, I must, of course, declare an interest as I was, indeed, the author of the decision in Smith v Ministry of Defence which has given rise to this debate. I appreciate very much that our decision has given rise to concern, so I very much welcome the opportunity that the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, has given us to examine some of the issues that the case has raised.
When a judge writes a judgment, one of the rules that he has to work with is that the judgment must speak for itself. It is not open to him to add anything to it or to subtract anything from it once it has been issued, and it is not my intention to do that, nor would I wish to do so. However, I thought that it might help if I were to say a little about how the leading judgment which I wrote is designed and about what it says, as it is vital to any decisions about where we go from here that it should not be misunderstood.
As the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, indicated in what he has just said, under our system it is open to anybody who believes that he or she has a claim of damages against a public authority to bring that claim to court. When that claim is brought before the court, the judge has to deal with it. There are two sides to every argument and the issues cannot be ducked, however difficult or uncomfortable they may be.
The claims with which we were dealing arose out of casualties sustained in two distinct phases of the United Kingdom’s engagement in Iraq. The first was a friendly fire incident involving two Challenger tanks during combat operations on the fourth day of the offensive. The second involved the use of Snatch Land Rovers on two occasions during a period when our forces were exercising the powers of government for the provisional Administration in Iraq—assisting the civil power, in other words. These claims were brought under two distinct branches of our law. The claims in the two Snatch Land Rover cases are brought under the Human Rights Act for breach of a convention right. The Challenger friendly fire claims dealing with combat do not raise a human rights issue at all. They are brought under the common law only. The second of the two Snatch Land Rover cases has an additional case under the common law, too.
As for the human rights claims, we held that a decision of the Strasbourg court left us with no alternative but to hold that the protection of the right to life under Article 2 of the convention applies to members of the Armed Forces when they are serving anywhere outside the territory of the United Kingdom, as well as inside its territory. Of course, as has been pointed out, that raises the question of how that article was to be applied in the situations that were described to us in these cases. The majority held that the court did not have sufficient facts to decide the issue for itself, so the Snatch Land Rover cases would have to go to trial. However, we gave as much guidance as it was open to us to give in paragraph 76 of the judgment. I said that the court must avoid imposing unrealistic or disproportionate obligations on the state in connection with the planning for, and conduct of, military operations in situations of armed conflict. It would be easy to find that the claims are beyond the reach of Article 2 when those thought to be responsible were actively engaged in contact with the enemy. In the Snatch Land Rover cases, it was not open to us to declare that the state had absolute immunity in these matters. The law with which we are dealing—human rights law, convention law—does not work that way, but we expected the trial judge to pay very close attention to the guidance which we were giving.
Under the common law claims, we first had to examine the doctrine of combat immunity, which has been referred to, because the MOD argued that all the common law claims should be struck out on this ground. As noble Lords have heard, the majority rejected that argument. But it is very important to note that the claims in the Challenger friendly fire incident—when it was plain that our forces were, indeed, engaged in combat—were not directed at those who were conducting the operations on the ground. Those who formulated the claims were very careful to direct their claims in a different direction. The complaints were of failures in training and the provision of equipment, which occurred long before the tanks crossed the start line. So the issue which has caused concern was not directly raised at all in the Challenger tank claims. The majority view was that combat immunity did not apply to things done or admitted to be done at that preliminary stage. However, it is crucially important to note—and I cannot stress this point too strongly—that we did not say that the doctrine of combat immunity no longer exists: it remains part of our law. The noble Lord, Lord Faulks, gave us a description of people engaged with the enemy on the beaches, in the air and in other situations. That is not what our judgment was dealing with, and there is nothing here which deprives commanders, and those serving under them in that situation, of that protection while they are engaged in combat.
The difficult question we were left with arose in the Snatch Land Rover cases and it was a different one. It was whether the immunity applies to what was going on in Iraq after the combat phase was over, when our troops were, as I have said, assisting the civil power, no doubt in situations of considerable danger. Here too, the majority held that the court did not have the information to decide for itself whether the claims should succeed. We did not rule out the possibility of applying the immunity, but the issue had to go to trial because we needed to know more—as will the judge—about the precise situation with which our forces were dealing at the time. In paragraph 99 of the judgment, I repeated the guidance given in paragraph 76 that, when considering the issue of what is just and reasonable, great care must be taken not to subject those responsible for decisions at any level who are engaged in operations of the kind that were being conducted in Iraq after the end of hostilities to duties that are unrealistic or excessively burdensome.
As the Minister has made clear on several occasions, the case is now in the hands of the trial judge. I suggest that it would be premature to draw any further conclusions until his decision is known. However, I hope very much that it will be appreciated that those serving in our Armed Forces, to whom we owe so much, are not as vulnerable to legal challenge as some people have been suggesting. As the author of the judgment, and as a former national service officer, I am greatly encouraged by the perception that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, has taken from it and the way in which he has appreciated the guidance we were trying to give.
Lord Craig of Radley (CB)
My Lords, I very much welcome the opportunity that the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, has given the House to debate this topic, and I commend strongly his excellent speech.
For all my 40 years of service, service discipline, enforcement and review were the responsibility of the chain of command. Since then, service legal arrangements have changed to accord more closely with human rights legislation and the view that misbehaviour and crimes in the services should largely be judged independently of that chain of command. The services have adapted, but what concerns me more is that the Armed Forces Act and human rights legislation are potentially incompatible.
Only service men and women effectively contract with the state to make the ultimate sacrifice if required, backed by the Armed Forces Act to enforce discipline and obedience. No other public servant is placed in this position. To disobey a lawful command, even one that for operational reasons may place an individual at serious risk of injury or even death, is a criminal offence under Armed Forces law. But today or in the future will the commander be at risk of a charge under human rights legislation? I acknowledge that this has not yet happened and that today’s commanders have been given assurances that the MoD would give them full support if ever it did. As has been mentioned, the Minister sought to reassure me, in answer to my topical Question following the Supreme Court judgment last June. He said:
“I do not expect it to be open to a soldier facing a charge of failing to follow orders to argue that his human rights trumped those orders”.—[Official Report, 25/6/13; col. 657.]
However, could it not go the other way, when protracted legal hindsight is brought to bear on the heat and urgency of operational decisions?
In 1998, in concert with Lord Campbell of Alloway, I tabled amendments on Report and at Third Reading to exclude the Armed Forces from the Human Rights Bill. While acknowledging that the Armed Forces were a public body as defined in the Bill—now the Human Rights Act 1998—we argued that special considerations applied to Armed Forces personnel, who may be, and often are, treated differently by legislation. As I said:
“There are offences of conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline, of disobeying a lawful command, and so on, which have no direct parallel in civilian life. These are enacted because they underpin and are vital to the operational effectiveness and discipline of the Armed Forces. Without further elaboration, the conclusion is self evident. The Armed Forces may be, and often are, treated differently by legislation”.—[Official Report, 19/1/98; col. 1354.]
The fashion of the time—remember we were not then engaged in major expeditionary operations overseas and the services were almost sidelined in the public mind—was to believe that civilian-style management rather than military-style leadership was what the services should adopt, particularly in peacetime. At Third Reading of the Human Rights Bill, the Lord Chancellor sought to assure the House. He said that,
“the Secretary of State for Defence takes the view that the Bill raises no issues which are special to the Armed Forces”.
Later in his speech he said:
“I urge your Lordships to be of the view that the convention is a flexible instrument. It poses no threat to the effectiveness of the Armed Forces”.—[Official Report, 5/2/98; col. 768.]
Since then numerous cases against the MoD have been brought under that Human Rights Act. The Lord Chancellor’s reassurances have been frittered away, most spectacularly by the way that the Supreme Court findings last June were publicised. The court’s view—albeit a minority one—that such cases were not suitable for resolution by a court seemed to be a ray of hope that could help inch the problem back to greater realism. The noble Lord, Lord Faulks, quoted the wording of the minority view, and it is worth repeating. It stated that,
“the approach taken by the majority will in my view make extensive litigation almost inevitable after, as well as quite possibly during and even before, any active service operations undertaken by the British army … ‘war cannot be controlled or conducted by judicial tribunals’”.
Should that realism be translated into new legislation? There is a proper reluctance in some quarters not to try to make changes because of the variety of cases that are sub judice and because today’s service men and women might be encouraged to believe that their rights were being eroded. Nevertheless, I remain concerned that there is a need to be proactive, not to await events only to find that the problem has become far more difficult and disruptive to the effective command and control of forces and personnel in operational situations.
The changes since the Human Rights Act 1998 and the assurances given then and the recent Supreme Court ruling show that this issue still has legs and will run and run unless remedies are devised and provided. This said, what proactive approach might be taken? The Policy Exchange think tank, which has been mentioned several times, argued in its study entitled The Fog of Law that such legal mission creep could paralyse the effectiveness of the military. It came up with seven options for tackling this problem. I floated two, Crown immunity and combat immunity, in my topical Question last month:
“Will Her Majesty’s Government consider new legislation to define combat immunity? ... Could this be incorporated in the Defence Reform Bill now in passage through Parliament?”.—[Official Report, 23/10/2013; col. 1003.]
Following further discussion, I now accept that this is not the right moment for primary or secondary legislation, although we should not ignore the public’s present strong support for the Armed Forces. After withdrawal from Afghanistan, and in the absence of other major overseas adventures, that support will surely fade.
The quinquennial Armed Forces Bill, due in 2016, would, however, provide a vehicle for further legislation, giving time for preparation and avoiding prejudice to current sub judice cases. A proactive game plan must be the Government’s approach. There needs to be a well resourced team charged with instigating study in academia and elsewhere to prepare the way. Waiting until something worse turns up before moving would be wrong and a deplorable failure of political and military leadership. I hope that the Minister will be robustly proactive tonight.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Faulks, who described himself as “a mere lawyer”. I know him to be more than a mere lawyer; he is an extremely good one, and therefore he must be well aware that, with this debate, he is stepping into a serious legal minefield.
The report by Tugendhat and Croft, to which reference has already been made, has made it quite clear that they do not consider that the military should be in any way above the law. It does present us, however, with enormous problems. I am not a lawyer, but I would like to divide the two activities of the military into two separate categories. One I would describe as the heat of battle and the other is cold blood.
I will deal with cold blood first. I do not think there is any excuse for an armed serviceman to murder a helpless prisoner. I do not think that the brutal treatment of detainees who are completely helpless victims in the hands of those who are supposed to be looking after them can be defended in any way. I remain to be convinced that any serious intelligence got through torturing detainees has actually saved British lives. On top of that, we leave the moral high ground when we descend into this sort of behaviour, and, inevitably, it gets out. What is almost beyond doubt is that when this stuff does get out, the effect it has justifies the actions of terrorists to carry out even more atrocious acts which put British lives at risk. So, in the category of cold blood, I do not think that anything other than the ruthless application of the law should be applied.
The heat of battle, though, is very much more difficult. The problem is that the law deals in facts; it does not deal in context. Let us face it, the military are the only people who are in the business of actually having to kill people. That puts them in a unique position in our society. If a soldier shoots a civilian, and that civilian is subsequently found to be unarmed and going about his lawful business, it sounds as though he has committed an unforgivable act, but if the context is one of ambushes, sniper fire and suicide bombings, the whole context changes that act. We have to accept that the pressures our military have been under in Helmand province, for instance, where they are dealing with a population some of whom are more than happy to kill them while others are not, completely changes the context in which acts like that are carried out.
I remember reading in the paper about the US Marine Corps in Helmand a few years ago. Some US marines were watching a rather distinguished looking Afghan man standing some way away in a field. They had him in their binoculars and they were wondering what on earth he was doing. This went on for some time, but eventually, they gave up, saying, “We won’t bother”. One marine turned around to walk away, whereupon the man picked up a rifle and shot him in the back. If you are dealing with that sort of environment, it is extremely difficult to bring the courtroom into the actions that soldiers take in such circumstances. If you are on live round training in the military, where you walk down a theoretical alley and targets pop out all around, I have to tell noble Lords that it is very difficult not to shoot the nun straight through the head because your reactions have to be very quick, and sometimes people get it wrong.
With the wisdom of hindsight, the military could have avoided practically every disaster that has ever happened, but the problem is that good armies are trained to take the fight to the enemy. The British Army in particular specialises in the friendly approach of winning hearts and minds, but that does not come without risk, and it is certainly very difficult when you are dealing with people such as Afghans.
On a totally separate issue, I turn to the question of civil liability. I have to say that during my military career, comprising a rather undistinguished three years, I never heard a shot fired in anger. However, I was nearly killed twice while training in Thetford in Norfolk. The first time was when my platoon was acting as the enemy at night. I was running ahead, because the platoon was behind the rest of the battalion that we were supposed to be attacking, when I fell into a bomb crater. Very luckily, I turned completely head over heels and landed on my back at the bottom of what was really quite a deep crater. If I had not done so, I might have broken my neck and died. Later on in our training we were training with live rounds. I inspected the Bren gun of the guardsman who had been firing and it was clear. I walked forward. He put the magazine back on to the gun and pulled the trigger. Those who know about Bren guns will know that that means that the thing goes off. The butt of the gun was on the ground and the bullet went straight over my head.
Are we saying that, if I had been killed in either of those circumstances, it would have been right for my family to have sued the Army because of something it had done wrong? Come on, let us live in the serious world. My noble friend Lord Faulks compared training in the Army to the Factories Acts and so on, but I do not believe that life is like that. You have to train in reasonably extreme circumstances in the military, and you run risks when you do that. Regrettably, people die quite regularly when training with the British military. If they all sue because someone did something wrong and someone died, where on earth will we end up? It strikes me that we are moving into very difficult territory if we do that.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, referred to Snatch Land Rovers. We deployed Snatch Land Rovers not because we had much more sophisticated vehicles that we could have used instead, but because we had nothing else at the time. The military has a great habit of being equipped to fight the previous war, never the current one. Eventually Snatch Land Rovers were replaced, but the fact is that we did not have the option to use anything better. This is another thing that is almost inevitably going to happen with the military. On day one of any conflict, it is never going to have the right equipment to fight that particular war.
We have to be very careful that we do not go down the same road as the National Health Service, where everyone now sues if something goes wrong with the result that it costs the taxpayer hundreds of millions of pounds a year. It would be regrettable if the military suffered the same fate.
Lord Guthrie of Craigiebank (CB)
My Lords, I start with a blunt and basic point. For those who have not experienced active military service, it is difficult to understand the pressures and friction of the battlefield. Decisions have to be taken by men who are under stress, often under fire, on the basis of incomplete information. Those decisions have to be taken quickly. Delay could mean death or defeat. In an office it is possible to come to a view, to seek advice, to make a couple of telephone calls and to reconsider. No such indulgences are possible when you and your men are in action. Armed combat is a unique activity. It follows that it must be governed by different rules.
This does not mean that armed combat is lawless activity. On the contrary, for centuries, men who fought were aware of some rules of chivalry, even if they were not always observed in modern times. The Geneva Convention and the law of armed conflict both attempt to restrain the brutalities of war. Service men and women are instructed early in their careers as to their responsibilities. There are limits. Let us not be squeamish: in combat, men are trying to defend their country by killing its enemies. It follows that civilian norms cannot apply. Things which happen on the battlefield are absolutely unthinkable in normal times.
If health and safety at work were to prevail on all occasions the Armed Forces would have to be disbanded. As for human rights, no right is more basic than the right to life. In combat, a soldier might be ordered to advance towards virtually certain death. Then there is a duty of care. All commanders do indeed have a duty to care for their men. They also have a duty to achieve their objectives.
That might all sound like common sense. I hope it does. In previous generations, that is how it would have been regarded. In the early stages of the Falklands War, when we started to suffer casualties, the then Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, was upset. It took her husband to comfort her, saying that that was the sort of thing that happened in war. He knew because he had been there and seen it. Denis Thatcher was right. Yet in recent years, common sense has often been brushed aside. Health and safety and the European Convention on Human Rights have both been imported into contexts where neither is really applicable. In effect, members of the judiciary has been brought into the front line of combat, where they really should not be as often as they are.
That is not the fault of the judges. I agree with all that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, said. I blame successive Governments, who did nothing to prevent legal mission creep. They could on occasions have sought derogation, but they did not. Legal mission creep is dangerous. As a young officer about to lead your men into action, you do not know how long the action will take or when and whether you will come under attack. Many things are on your mind. You are already aware of Geneva Convention rules, and it is intolerable that you should also be burdened by the thought that in some months’ time, your every action will be dissected by lawyers. That has happened in the coroners’ courts from time to time.
If noble Lords wish to consider all this in more detail, I, too, recommend the Fog of Law pamphlet produced by Policy Exchange. One of the authors, Colonel Tom Tugendhat, was wounded in Afghanistan and knows what he is talking about. Whether we disagree with it—and I do not—I believe that many hundreds of servicemen and servicewomen support what he says. That is what they feel.
I am anxious, because we need our Armed Forces. I hear no sound of swords being hammered into ploughshares. We live in a dangerous world, in which our survival depends on the dedication of our Armed Forces, who are willing to embrace discipline, to confront danger and to do their duty at whatever cost and sacrifice. We have an exceptional national resource. However, legal mission creep and the fog of law on the battlefield put that in jeopardy. We cannot, and must not, arrive at a situation in which our soldiers are afraid to fight not because of the enemy—that day, I hope, will never come—but because of the lawyers back home, backed by legislation that is inappropriate for the battlefield.
The British public respect the military and are grateful for its efforts, which buoys up the soldiers. The problem arises with the politicians, the public representatives. If they are serious about preserving our military ethos, it is they who must act. I agree with all that the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, said in his introduction to the debate. We should think very hard about what our servicemen and servicewomen think. They are worried.
Lord Bew (CB)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, for securing this debate and for his excellent speech. I speak with some trepidation, not being a noble and learned Lord or a noble and gallant Lord. I am not even, as the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, put it, slightly whimsically, a mere lawyer. I speak as an academic, but as one who discovered, on reading the important and commanding academic article by Professor Anthony Forster in International Affairs, Vol. 88, on the process of juridification of armed conflict, that I had played a somewhat unwitting role in this process, as historical adviser to the Bloody Sunday tribunal.
Professor Forster lists a number of key moments in the period since I became an adult, over the last generation, in which one can see this process of the juridification of armed conflict. Some have already been referred to in our discussions, such as the Supreme Court ruling in Smith this summer, and the Baha Mousa case. However, he also mentions the Bloody Sunday inquiry, and what it tells us about changing attitudes, a number of times. He makes a very serious point: it is an obvious example not just of the way that the judiciary has become engaged in the process of the use of force by our soldiers but of how the concept of national interest has changed, in the sense that it was inconceivable for British Governments to formally challenge, in that way, the past use of our soldiers in conflict at a later date. The decision of the Blair Government in 1998 to reopen the issues dealt with by the Widgery inquiry in the early 1970s is an example of the way in which the traditional concept of national interest has changed, for good or ill.
Professor Forster’s point in his article is that, emotionally and in a number of ways, our society’s view of these questions is in the process of flux and change; I think this is indisputable. I remember being a student in Cambridge in 1972, when Bloody Sunday occurred, and there is no question that that day, when 14 innocent civilians were killed, is one of the least happy days in the history of the British Army. I remember watching the demonstration of students in Cambridge. I can see in my mind’s eye the people in that demonstration, one of whom, for example, came to hold one of the highest offices of state. There is no question that, in this respect, our attitude as a society and the attitude of leaders, public opinion and so on has evolved.
In some respects, the Widgery tribunal is often discussed a little unfairly. Lord Widgery actually said that a majority of those who died on the day were innocent—that has been forgotten—and the Army’s response to discovering his view was one of being disturbed. However, it is hard to avoid the sense that the structure of feeling surrounding the tribunal was very different from the structure of feeling that we have today. It has already been referred to by noble Lords that, in the post-war period, judges themselves had often served in the military, as had Lord Widgery. A key issue in the Bloody Sunday tribunal was the role of the general in Northern Ireland, General Ford, who had been a very brave soldier at the D-day landings. It is almost inconceivable that these recollections and emotional associations were not in Lord Widgery’s mind when he considered the issues posed by Bloody Sunday; it is humanly inconceivable.
We have now moved into a very different world. Lord Justice Moses refers to this in the introduction to the Policy Exchange pamphlet that has been referred to a number of times during this debate. He talks about remembering, as a boy, cases coming up before a judge where a burglar comes into the court, puts on his regimental tie and medals and the judge regretfully looks at him and returns half the merited sentence for the crime. This world has gone completely; it is not to return. I know that and Professor Forster knows it. We know that the Widgery tribunal inquiry was inappropriate and inadequate. He states clearly that he has no regrets about being an historical adviser to the new tribunal. It is not a question of trying to create a context in which the Armed Forces operated outside civilised standards. Politically we have to be aware of the fact that, in the wars of choice that have been referred to in recent times, as the fundamental ideological justification of these wars has been the defence of human rights, it is all the more important that our Armed Forces are perceived to behave properly in context, as far as possible, with obligations to human rights.
However, we have reached a fundamentally unstable point. I listened with great interest today to the words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. I do not want to be misunderstood. There is an argument about whether the four were right in the Supreme Court, whether the three were right in the Supreme Court, and whether there were exaggerated fears out of the ruling that came from the majority on the Supreme Court. I understand that argument and I am extremely grateful to the noble and learned Lord for the way in which he explained the position with great clarity today. However, the real problem is that we are on a slippery slope once we move to a rights-based jurisdiction, away from the unproblematic concepts of national interest and the relationship between the state, the judiciary and the Armed Forces that existed a generation ago when I was a young man. We are now in a new place. Indeed, Professor Forster says at the end of his piece that once you move away from those concepts to rights-based arguments, because of the difficulty of reconciling and aligning competing rights, the context is always unstable.
That is why, despite the hints that come from on high, there will be no end to litigation on this subject; the floodgates are absolutely open, despite the hints that people perhaps misunderstand the full implications of the ruling of the majority in the Supreme Court. That is why, like the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, I was attracted to the argument on the question of Parliament looking again at combat immunity. Perhaps the noble and gallant Lord is right to believe that this is not the right step at this moment, although there are other steps that Parliament might consider taking. However, what is certain is that there is no stability in the place that we have currently reached, and we owe our Armed Forces that stability.
Lord Freeman (Con)
My Lords, I join colleagues in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, on an excellent speech. I find myself in complete agreement with his contribution to this important debate, and my remarks would march very much in time and in tune with what he said.
I want to make what some noble Lords might feel is a rather narrow point, but for me it is very important: the impact of the uncertainty that has been created on the major challenge that we face in increasing our Reserve Forces, particularly the Army reservists. Twenty years ago we had something like—my noble friend Lord Trefgarne will confirm this—50,000 reservists. That fell to 15,000 only quite recently.
Lord Freeman
I defer to my noble friend on the statistics. Now, however, we are looking to increase the numbers to something like 35,000. The uncertainty that has been created by this discussion, however erudite and legal, is causing problems already. I say this as president for the past 10 years of the Reserve Forces Association, and the questions that I get—few at the moment, but they will gather speed and pace—about the liability of reservists who are serving abroad alarms me, and gives me concerns about our ability to reach our target of recruitment over the coming years. It is rather poignant that today the MoD has sent out a call for 1,500 extra reservists for service abroad, principally in Afghanistan.
I make a plea to the Minister and, through him, to his Secretary of State to come to a conclusion fairly quickly. I appreciate that the advice Ministers are receiving is, “Let’s wait and see what the results are of the lower court’s consideration of the issue”—the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, referred to two present cases. We cannot wait too long; we need clarification on this issue. I for one, and I dare say a number of noble Lords on this side of the House, would probably favour taking clear action on the Convention on Human Rights and disallowing it in relation to the activities of the Armed Forces, not just on the battlefield but in planning and preparation for conflict.
I look forward to the Minister’s response and hope that we can clarify the situation so that this major task of increasing our reservists can be done in a slightly calmer fashion and we can allay their fears that they might be subject to litigation in the courts of the United Kingdom.
Lord Ramsbotham (CB)
My Lords, I, too, congratulate and thank the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, for obtaining this important debate, and in doing so say that I suspect that I speak for many members of all three Armed Forces. I also thank Nicola Newson for her quite excellent Library note, which sets out the arguments for and against legal challenge so clearly and fairly.
During my own Army service, I watched the advance of what the Policy Exchange calls “legal mission creep”. I will begin my contribution by venturing that not enough note has been taken of one very good explanation for this—namely, that the nature of the active operations in which our Armed Forces have been involved has changed since the end of World War 2.
General Sir Rupert Smith, in his important book, The Utility of Force, refers to them as “wars amongst the people”, because no longer are they between uniformed armed bodies of people fighting within geographically defined areas, but between a uniformed armed body of people and a number of un-uniformed, sometimes armed, people, who mingle with other un-uniformed, usually unarmed, people in the places where they live. Therefore the law of armed conflict and the Geneva conventions are not always applicable. During confrontation with Indonesia, my riflemen had to understand both what was allowed in combat with the Indonesian army when we were in Indonesia, and how to behave towards the inhabitants of that part of Sarawak in which we were based when looking for possible infiltrators.
Northern Ireland was different again. Traditionally, in what were called internal security operations, the police handed a situation over to the Army, who took the necessary military action, possibly including opening fire, after which they handed it back to the police as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, when the Army was introduced into the Province in August 1969 it was as policemen, the Royal Ulster Constabulary being exhausted. I have always regretted this, because of the problem it posed for our soldiers. They were expected to be firm, fair and friendly—like armed policemen—most of the time, but when military action was required they had to act within the law, and were told that if they did so in good faith, they had nothing to worry about. To guide us we all had to carry a yellow card on which the appropriate circumstances were printed. We also used what were known as “flying lawyers”, who interviewed those involved in any incident, at the scene, before memories clouded over. But all that was before the European Convention on Human Rights.
However, it is my experience of European legislation that seems to me most relevant to this debate. When I was Adjutant General, or personnel director, I and my Navy and Air Force opposite numbers were told that we had to introduce industrial tribunals into our service judicial systems. When I asked whether they came before or after the Queen, I was told that that was irrelevant, because the Bill bringing this European legislation into United Kingdom law had already had its First Reading. Having asked to see it, I passed the Bill to the Director General of the Army Legal Services, who within five minutes told me that it was totally unacceptable, because it allowed an employee to take his employer to an industrial tribunal if ordered into a place of danger. In Army terms this meant that OC B Company could take his commanding officer to an industrial tribunal if ordered to attack an enemy position.
I asked what the French, German and Italian armed forces had done about this, to be told that their Governments had sought, and been granted, dispensation for them. I asked why ours had not done so, and was pleased that, later, dispensation was sought and agreed. I mention this because I have the distinct impression that, while full of gratitude for the work of Ministry of Defence legal staff and civil servants, who understand the difficulties of the transposition of human rights legislation to the battlefield, ancient or modern, members of the Armed Forces do not feel the same about those in other parts of the Government, who are in a position to seek dispensation for them. Currently they agree with my noble and learned friend Lord Hope that they should await a ruling of the European Court of Human Rights before they know whether the Supreme Court judgment in the Smith case will affect operations and their commanders.
I suspect that, had the need for dispensation been considered years ago, my noble and learned friend Lord Hope might not have been required to deliver his leading judgment, from which I will quote the following words. He stated that,
“it is of paramount importance that the work that the armed forces do in the national interest should not be impeded by having to prepare for or conduct active operations against the enemy under the threat of litigation if things should go wrong”.
I do so because my noble and learned friend clearly understands the demands of both command and active operations, and appreciates the importance of the former not being saddled with inappropriate limitations when planning or conducting the latter.
I note that Policy Exchange recommends consideration of derogation from the European Court of Human Rights during deployed operations. I prefer to seek appropriate dispensation for our Armed Forces as a matter of course as early as possible in a legislative process. However, whichever route is chosen, I hope that those responsible for the consideration of how our Armed Forces may be protected from vulnerability to legal challenge will have the words of my noble and learned friend ringing in their ears.
Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I originally put my name down to speak in this debate because I understood that my noble and learned friend Lord Hope of Craighead would be unable to be here. It had been my overriding concern to make plain that Smith is a good deal more nuanced and measured a judgment than generally understood, that the senior judiciary giving the majority judgment in Smith had not lost their marbles, and that the reaction has been something of an overreaction in terms of estimating the damage that it does to our fighting capabilities. The Defence Secretary was quoted as saying,
“We can’t have troop commanders living in fear of how lawyers back in London might interpret their battlefield decisions”,
and somewhat similar concerns were expressed by noble and gallant Members of this House during Questions. Those concerns are substantially misplaced. When my noble and learned friend Lord Hope told me that he could take part in the debate after all, I wondered whether to scrub from the list. However, I decided not to, partly because not having been on the case I am perhaps better able than him to emphasise the comparatively limited effect of the majority judgment. I also want to make plain that I am prepared to acknowledge and recognise the problems that the majority judgment creates for the future, perhaps not merely for the Armed Forces but for the justice system as well.
As to the limited effect of the judgment, three things must be recognised. First, members of the Armed Forces, notwithstanding that they are on active service abroad, come within the UK’s jurisdiction for the purposes of the European Convention on Human Rights. That was the unanimous decision of all seven members of the Supreme Court in Smith, and that conclusion was plainly now dictated by a Grand Chamber decision in Strasbourg—a decision, I may add, that was contrary to what we had previously decided in the Appellate Committee here in the House, to which I was party.
Secondly, however—this is very important—it by no means follows that the fact that a claimant was on active service abroad when killed or injured is irrelevant to a claim under the convention; far from it. As the majority’s judgment makes plain, the convention will not be applied as imposing on states obligations which are unrealistic and disproportionate. Policy decisions made at a high level of command and things done on the battlefield will necessarily fall outside the protection of the right to life under Article 2 of the convention and a wide measure of appreciation is given to member states as to what are the requirements of armed service are.
Thirdly, all the various claims that were considered—claims under the human rights convention and separate claims brought in common law negligence, without reference to the convention—which were grouped together in Smith in the Supreme Court, were being dealt with at a preliminary stage of the litigation, namely as strike-out applications. The question for the court was therefore: should these claims be allowed to proceed, however unpromising they might appear, to see whether once all the facts were established they should succeed, or—this was the minority conclusion—should they receive their immediate quietus on the basis, frankly, that enough was already known to decide that they could never properly succeed? The majority, of course, took the former view, but made it plain that it was far from clear that all, or indeed any, of these claims would in the end actually succeed. So much for the limited effect of the judgment.
I will now turn briefly to the problems which, as I have already said, I nevertheless recognise that the majority judgment poses for the future. This appears clearly from the judgments of the minority, in particular those of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mance and Lord Carnwath, with whom the noble Lord, Lord Wilson agreed. The problem is this: to say that first, high-level policy decisions, and secondly, battlefield decisions, fall outside convention protection, leaves a wholly undefined area of middle ground between those two extremes; an area within which the majority suggests that, depending on all the detailed facts of the case, liability might arise. That, as the minority judgment suggests, makes extensive litigation almost inevitable in a number of cases, and is likely to lead to the “judicialisation of war”. These passages have already been emphasised by various of your Lordships. It might, therefore, have been preferable to have ruled with the minority that on the known facts, without the need for any more, no positive obligation to protect life could arise under Article 2 of the convention, and Strasbourg would not suggest otherwise and, similarly, that it would not be fair, just and reasonable to impose on the Ministry of Defence any common law duty of care in respect of any of these deaths or injuries; rather they should be regarded as falling within the scope of this somewhat ill defined defence of combat immunity. That is the burden of the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, and I have to say, one can readily see its attractions.
As to the way ahead, it must now surely be necessary to await the final outcome of these particular actions, hopefully sooner rather than later. One would have thought they should be expedited. Parliament cannot legislate retrospectively in respect of these claims. Depending then on how matters appear, legislation may be thought desirable. I suggest that this would most sensibly and conveniently be done by the Secretary of State making an order—the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, has already referred to this path—pursuant to Section 2 of the 1987 Act which would revive the effect of Section 10 of the 1947 Act. Essentially this would exclude tort liability for the injury or death of any member of the armed services in connection with warlike operations or activities abroad.
I will make a brief final point. Legislating to allay the fears of those who may be criticised—soldiers or the Ministry—in these cases is also by definition legislating to end the compensation hopes of a number of brave injured soldiers. It may be the right thing to do, but we should not lose sight of that consideration.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
My Lords, this is an important issue, and I, too, express my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, for providing the opportunity to discuss the matter in some detail and shortly to hear the Government’s position from the Minister. Virtually all—if not all—of your Lordships who have spoken have been able to call on their direct and practical knowledge of the law or on their direct and practical knowledge of the realities of conflict and the realities of the way in which our Armed Forces operate and work on our behalf. Unfortunately I am not in that position. Like the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, I am extremely appreciative of the Library note.
Although, as has been said, there have been previous decisions by courts that have given rise to the concerns that have been expressed today, it has been the Supreme Court judgment last June, apparently changing a Supreme Court judgment from 2010, which has raised the profile further of the issue of our Armed Forces and their vulnerability to legal challenge. Shortly before the Supreme Court judgment, in May this year the High Court apparently ordered hundreds of inquest-style public hearings to investigate alleged unlawful killings and mistreatment of civilians by British forces in Iraq. Recent legal challenges to the Armed Forces have fallen into two main categories: those relating to the Armed Forces’ treatment of civilians and those which relate to the Armed Forces’ treatment of their own personnel.
Although I am not a lawyer, I would like to talk about the Supreme Court judgment and what, as I perhaps mistakenly understand, it said. The proceedings concerned three sets of claims arising from the deaths of three of our servicemen and serious injuries to two others in Iraq. The first set, brought in negligence, arose from a friendly fire incident involving British tanks and alleged failures by the Ministry of Defence properly to equip the tanks involved and give the soldiers adequate recognition training. The second set arose from the detonation of improvised explosive devices level with the Land Rovers in which the soldiers were travelling and claimed that the Ministry of Defence breached the European Convention on Human Rights by failing to take preventive measures to protect life in the light of the real and immediate risk to life of soldiers who were required to patrol in the Land Rovers. The third set, like the first, was also brought in negligence, by—I believe—the son of one of the soldiers killed in the Land Rover incident, and claimed various alleged failures on the part of the Ministry of Defence.
The Ministry of Defence argued at the Court of Appeal that the Land Rover claims should be struck out because at the time of their deaths the two soldiers were not within the jurisdiction of the UK for the purposes of the European convention and because, on the facts put forward, the MoD did not owe a duty to the soldiers at the time of their deaths under Article 2 of the convention, the right to life. The Ministry of Defence also argued on the Challenger tank claims and the third set, the negligence claim, that they should be struck out on the principle of combat immunity and because it would not be fair, just or reasonable to impose a duty of care on the Ministry of Defence in the circumstances of those cases.
The Court of Appeal decided that the Land Rover claims should be struck out and that the Challenger claims and the negligence claim should proceed to trial. The Supreme Court decided unanimously, as has been said, that in relation to the Land Rover claims the two soldiers were within the UK’s jurisdiction for the purposes of the European convention at the time of their deaths. By a majority, the Supreme Court held that the Land Rover claims should not be struck out on the ground that the claims were not within the scope of Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights and, also by a majority, that the Challenger claims and the negligence claim should not be struck out on the ground of combat immunity or on the ground that it would not be fair, just or reasonable to extend the MoD’s duty of care to those cases. The effect of the Supreme Court’s decision was that all three sets of claims could proceed to trial.
The summary provided by the Supreme Court to assist in understanding its decisions states on the Land Rover claims under Article 2 of the European convention:
“In this area, the court must fully recognise the wide margin of appreciation to be given to the state and avoid imposing obligations which are unrealistic or disproportionate”.
It also states:
“The circumstances in which the various decisions were made need to be inquired into before it can be determined with complete confidence whether or not there was a breach of article 2. However, given the Court’s guidance on the margin of appreciation to be given to the state, it is far from clear that the claimants will be able to demonstrate such a breach”.
On the Challenger claims and the further, separate, negligence claim, the summary says that:
“The doctrine of combat immunity should be construed narrowly and should not be extended beyond its established scope to the planning of and preparation for active operations against the enemy. The Challenger claims are not within the scope of the doctrine because they relate to decisions which are sufficiently far removed from the pressures and risks of active operations against the enemy. The … negligence claim is less obviously directed to things done away from the theatre of battle so it is arguably within the doctrine”.
The summary then goes on to say:
“The circumstances in which active operations are undertaken by the UK’s armed services today vary greatly and cannot all be grouped under a single umbrella as if they were all open to the same risk of judicialising warfare. However, considerations similar to those affecting the Snatch Land Rover claims under article 2 arise in relation to whether it would be fair, just and reasonable to impose a duty of care on the MoD in this area. The question whether the negligence claims in this case entail subjecting the MoD to duties that are unrealistic or excessively burdensome cannot properly be determined without hearing evidence”.
The Supreme Court has not determined the outcome of the claims it addressed in its judgment. It has made the decision that the claims should proceed to trial. It is not for me to interpret the wording in the Supreme Court summary document, which clearly states that the full judgment of the court is the only authoritative document.
I have, however, noted what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, said today. It is clear that there is now a feeling of uncertainty over where our Armed Forces and the actions that they take now stand in relation to the law and the vulnerability to legal challenge. Whether the position will be clearer when the cases that were before the Supreme Court have been to trial remains to be seen.
The Government are clearly concerned about the lack of clarity. Subject to what the Minister has to say, the Government appear to be waiting, not unreasonably, for the outcomes of these cases in the hope that the decisions will provide greater clarity before determining what, if any, action needs to be taken and, accordingly, what advice should be given to Armed Forces personnel.
Cases are, of course, determined on their merits and on the evidence that is placed before the court, but clarity is often dependent on judgments laying down clear principles and guidelines that can be applied and taken into account by those who might be contemplating legal action and by those who feel they might be subject to legal proceedings. Nobody wants to see a situation in which our Armed Forces are less able than they are now to protect, further and act in the national interest on our behalf because of uncertainty over the legal position or because of new or changed legal considerations and the perceived or real prospect of vulnerability to legal challenge that did not exist before.
I am aware that the Ministry of Defence now has to deal with a considerable increase in claims in the light of earlier judicial decisions and no doubt also, in some cases, of a feeling that the exact legal position should now be tested. It is interesting to note that in his dissenting opinion to the Supreme Court decision, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mance, said that,
“the approach taken by the majority will in my view make extensive litigation almost inevitable after, as well as quite possibly during and even before, any active service operations undertaken by the British army. It is likely to lead to the judicialisation of war”.
Dealing with claims costs time and money and deflects resources, human and financial, from other defence-related work. Apart, however, from the vital need to get uncertainty resolved so that proper consideration can be given as to whether and, if so, what further action needs to be taken by government, the other key issue is whether our Armed Forces, involved in or preparing for operations, are being inhibited in what they do on our behalf in the national interest as a result of uncertainties about exposure to potentially successful legal challenges and claims. I hope the Minister will be able to give assurances that that is not the case because, if it is, we are in a very difficult and serious situation.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con)
My Lords, I, too, am grateful to my noble friend Lord Faulks for tabling this Motion. It is timely for this House to take stock of recent legal developments which could, in different ways, have important consequences for the ability of our Armed Forces to conduct operations and, therefore, for our national interest.
All military operations carry a degree of risk. As the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Guthrie, said, armed combat is a unique activity. Good commanders are adept at forecasting, assessing, and carefully managing risks in the preparation and execution phases of operations. The Armed Forces of the United Kingdom must at all times seek to operate within the rule of law and to take account of how the law changes. There is nothing new about that. But what does cause the Government concern is the extent to which legal developments are creating uncertainty and imposing costs which may have an impact on how our Armed Forces are able to train and operate.
One direct consequence is that the Ministry of Defence has been grappling with rapidly increasing numbers of legal claims arising from operations, together with escalating costs, largely as a result of these legal developments and the increasing willingness of individuals to litigate. I welcome the fact that these issues are of increasing interest and concern to others. The House of Commons Defence Committee recently announced an inquiry into the legal framework for UK military operations in future, including the protections and obligations for operational and deployed UK Armed Forces personnel. The Ministry of Defence has submitted its observations to the Committee, and we look forward to learning of its conclusions.
The recent report by the Policy Exchange called The Fog of Law, to which a number of noble and noble and gallant Lords have referred, was therefore a timely contribution to the discussion and raised a number of very important questions. It was written by authors with a great deal of hands-on experience of military planning and operations, so its conclusion,
“recent legal developments have undermined the armed forces’ ability to operate effectively on the battlefield”,
deserves respect and careful consideration. None the less, I would not go quite that far, or not yet. I do not believe we have reached the stage where the ability or operational flexibility of our Armed Forces has been significantly impaired or that military decision-making has been hamstrung. I think that that answers the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. Crucially, I cannot point to any specific incident in which it appears that concerns about legal liability have been responsible for failure to take operationally necessary measures in the course of combat.
Ministers and the military chain of command have been clear that commanders and other military personnel, at whatever level, who make reasonable decisions in good faith in the course of operations will receive the full backing of the services and the Government. I hope that this reassurance will have put any doubts to rest. I am also reassured that there has been no decision by the courts that would suggest that they would impose liability in such circumstances. Nevertheless, the Government are certainly concerned about the long-term trends which the report analyses. The law remains uncertain on some key matters—unhelpfully so, from the Government’s point of view—and this situation will continue until some of the key cases now before the courts have been ruled upon authoritatively.
The Government are very concerned in particular about the potential effects of the Supreme Court’s majority judgment in the cases of Smith and others, Ellis, and Allbutt and others versus the Ministry of Defence, which were handed down together on 19 June. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, pointed out, these cases relate to a number of extremely tragic incidents in Iraq arising out of lethal attacks on soldiers patrolling in Snatch Land Rovers and out of a so-called “friendly fire” accident involving Challenger 2 tanks. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, set that out very clearly. It gives us no satisfaction at all to have to defend cases brought by the families of the brave men who died or were injured in these events, but the principles involved are extremely important, and the Government’s case needs to be put robustly.
Briefly, and at the risk of oversimplification, these cases turn on the extent to which the European Convention on Human Rights applies to military personnel on overseas military operations, and the precise scope of the legal doctrine known as combat immunity. In this litigation, the Ministry of Defence contended that it was not reasonable or appropriate for the courts to take the role of final arbiters of military decisions, including, as in these cases, decisions about the provision of equipment to our forces. Our case failed in a split judgment in the Supreme Court. I think it reasonable to point out the minority speech by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mance, which offers an admirable and compelling analysis of the dangers of opening up the conduct of military operations to litigation.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, who delivered the judgment, has spoken with his accustomed clarity about the issues at stake in this case. The Government took comfort from the clear warnings in the majority judgment that the scope for such litigation must inevitably be limited. While the effect of the judgment is that the cases considered by the Supreme Court must now be heard on their individual merits by the High Court, their Lordships were very clear that, to quote the judgment:
“The court must be especially careful, in their case, to have regard to the public interest, to the unpredictable nature of armed conflict and to the inevitable risks that it gives rise to”.
I listened carefully also to the advice of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown.
To reassure the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, we will therefore be defending vigorously any legal cases which turn on the issue of combat immunity. For that reason, although we have considered the option of legislating for a statutory definition of combat immunity, and we have not ruled out any legislative possibilities, we have made no decision as yet to bring forward any such proposals. We will study very carefully the judgments in the cases to which I have referred when they appear. It is our hope that the case law will develop in a way which recognises that there must be limits to the extent to which military decisions should be replayed and contested in the courts. I must make it clear that our position is underpinned by the provisions of the Armed Forces Compensation Scheme, which assigns compensation on a no-fault basis for injuries sustained by members of the Armed Forces in the course of their service.
So far, I have been speaking mainly of legal actions brought against the Government by current or former military personnel or their families. There has also been a good deal of concern about the volume of cases against the MoD brought by UK firms of solicitors on behalf of Iraqi and Afghan nationals who were detained by UK Armed Forces. The claims typically allege that individuals were abused on arrest and unlawfully detained, which amounted to a violation of their Article 3 and Article 5 European convention rights. These are the right not to be subjected to torture or inhuman or degrading treatment, and the right to liberty. They seek damages, sometimes for very substantial amounts, as well as declarations that their human rights have been breached, and in some cases they argue that a full investigation is required into their alleged ill-treatment. In a smaller number of cases, unlawful killings and breaches of Article 2—the right to life—are alleged.
A key issue in these judicial review challenges and personal injury claims has been whether people detained or allegedly killed, injured, or mistreated by UK Armed Forces come within the jurisdiction of the convention. On 7 July 2011, the Grand Chamber of the Strasbourg court handed down judgments in the two important cases of Al-Skeini and Al-Jedda. These judgments resulted in a substantial extension of the extraterritorial application of the convention to Iraq. In addition, the Al-Jedda judgment had what I can only regard as the deeply unfortunate consequence that compensation has had to be paid to a large number of people who were detained solely because there was good reason to think that they posed a threat to security in Iraq and to the safety of members of our Armed Forces.
I need hardly say that the Government in no way dispute the need for the legal accountability of our Armed Forces. Nor do they suggest that the Armed Forces are at all times without fault, as we know from the tragic death of Baha Mousa, the Iraqi hotel owner mentioned by my noble friend Lord Thomas. He was beaten to death by soldiers guarding him in 2003. There is no question that his killing was a tragedy and a shameful incident in the history of the Iraq conflict and of the British Army. Those soldiers who knew the truth refused to come clean and no one was convicted of Baha Mousa’s murder, although one soldier was convicted of a lesser offence.
Noble Lords will, I think, be pleased to learn that there remains the possibility that those responsible for the death of Baha Mousa will be brought to justice. As suggested by the previous Defence Secretary, a new investigation of the case is under way, conducted by the Iraq Historic Allegations Team, which was set up as a mark of the Government’s serious commitment to get to the bottom of the allegations of abuse and unlawful killings in Iraq. Despite repeated legal challenges, the competence and integrity of the Iraq Historic Allegations Team has been vindicated by the High Court and it is getting on with its important work, carried out under difficult conditions.
These investigations are important because we need to ensure, as I have said, that the Armed Forces of the United Kingdom will be held to the highest standards of conduct. They are also important because, by establishing how abuses were allowed to happen, remedial action can be taken. The Baha Mousa public inquiry, chaired by Lord Justice Gage, provided a cogent analysis of the conditions which led to the killing and made 72 recommendations to prevent any recurrence, all but one of which were accepted by the Government. We intend to make an announcement shortly on progress on implementation of the Baha Mousa inquiry recommendations. The department will also shortly be publishing the first annual report on systemic issues identified from the investigations of the Iraq Historic Allegations Team.
I mentioned earlier the judgment of the European Court of Human Rights in the case of Al-Skeini and Al Jedda, which had important implications for the application of the human rights convention to our operations in Iraq. It is important to be clear that in our view the situation in Afghanistan is different. This is in part because the UK operates in Afghanistan through ISAF, a multinational force under the ultimate authority and control of the United Nations Security Council. Consequently, we contend that the UK’s acts and omissions are, for convention purposes, attributable to ISAF and hence to the United Nations, not to the United Kingdom. But even where the convention does not apply, there are legal challenges that need to be grappled with. The English courts are all too aware of the serious and difficult outcomes that can arise. Through a combination of recent legal challenges seeking to put a stop to UK detention and transfer operations in Afghanistan, the Defence Secretary came close to being put in a position where he could neither lawfully detain captured persons nor transfer them into Afghan custody. The problem was eventually solved, thanks in part to co-operation between the British and Afghan Governments, but this illustrates the way in which judicial action in the domestic courts can potentially have the most serious effects on operations which the Government consider vital for national security.
Given the centrality of the European Convention on Human Rights to many of these issues, some have suggested that derogation from the convention for military operations should be considered. Article 15 of the convention allows for parties to derogate from the convention’s obligations, but only from certain articles and then only in time of war or other public emergency threatening the life of the nation. There are different views as to the circumstances which would satisfy this condition. The legal and political questions which derogation would raise would be difficult ones, and we would need to be very clear that the benefits outweighed the disadvantages before proceeding with that option. The coalition agreement is also clear that no such changes would be contemplated at present.
I should like to say a word about the costs of litigation arising out of military operations. The Ministry of Defence is required to spend millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money each year to defend claims. These are resources which have been voted by Parliament for defence purposes and which would be much better employed in support of the front line. I wish to place on record my appreciation of the work of the Secretary of State for Justice in seeking to ensure that public resources are allocated as far as possible only to the most meritorious cases.
My noble friend Lord Thomas referred to a paper produced by Army personnel on the problem of risk aversion, which was subsequently leaked to the press. I can confirm that this was what is known as a “think piece” and in no way reflects the policy of the Government. My noble friend Lord Freeman was absolutely right to remind us that these matters are potentially of vital concern to reservists as well as to the Regular Forces. His call for an early resolution of these uncertainties is very pertinent. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, mentioned Northern Ireland. I was also there in August 1969 and well remember the yellow cards that we were all given and the extreme care that we had to take. There are some misconceptions about derogations from the European Convention on Human Rights by some of our key allies. Their obligations are, in all key respects, the same as ours.
In closing my remarks, I should like to emphasise once again that the Armed Forces are thoroughly committed to the rule of law. We mount a strong defence in litigation wherever justified, but we will also call members of the Armed Forces to account where it is right and proper to do so. The vast majority of our service men and women have served, and continue to serve, the country with integrity and courage, many of them in situations of danger and stress which we civilians can only try to imagine. I pay tribute to them today.
Lord Faulks
My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble and gallant Lords, noble and learned Lords and other noble Lords. This has been a remarkable debate, reflecting the experience and knowledge of military affairs and the law which are found in your Lordships’ House.
My noble friend the Minister has been very helpful in responding to a number of points made in the debate. He, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and many other noble Lords pointed to what may or may not eventuate from the decision in Smith and in other cases. The burden of expectation on the judge or judges who decide this case is considerable. The suggestion that clarity will emerge from one case is an expectation too much. Each case is decided on its individual facts and one cannot get away from the point of principle which is at stake here. In every case where there is a claim for negligence it will be said that, although something is possibly within the scope of battlefield immunity, it can be attributed to failures of training or inadequate equipment. So the line has to be drawn.
The noble and learned Lord said that the judge at first instance would have to take great account of the judgment of the majority in Smith and I am sure that he or she will do so. However, to take great care is not going to provide an adequate solution. To quote the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mance:
“To offer as a panacea … that courts should be very cautious about accepting such claims is to acknowledge the problem, but to offer no real solution”.
The wave of litigation will continue unabated, with all the consequences alluded to in this debate, unless and until Parliament intervenes. I hope and trust that the Minister will take back to the ministry the concerns expressed in the House and I look forward to a positive response.
Magna Carta
Baroness Boothroyd
To ask the Chairman of Committees what plans the House of Lords has to celebrate the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta.
Baroness Boothroyd (CB)
My Lords, one of the team organising the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta said recently that it was a celebration of democracy, which it is. He then added in a private, off the cuff comment, that this probably ruled out the House of Lords being involved, a jibe I resent and deplore. It not only betrays a gross ignorance of the role of this House in Parliament and its place in the constitution, it is also historically bunkum.
The Barons who forced King John to sign Magna Carta in 1215 paved the way for many of the liberties we and millions of others enjoy throughout the world. Of course, those medieval Barons were not democrats, far from it. But they laid the foundation on which our freedoms are based—the rule of law, the limitation of executive power and the rights of the individual.
Look around you, my Lords. Their statues, as filthy and as dirty as they are, adorn our walls. Sixteen of the Barons and two Bishops who were at Runneymede look down on us. They changed the course of history, which is why I want this House and this Parliament to be in the forefront of the anniversary celebrations. Sadly, it will not be, according to the plans so far announced. I am told that my views on this are unhelpful but I make no apology.
Preparations for the anniversary have been underway for several years and one of the key decisions needs to be challenged. The highlight of the anniversary will be the display of all four surviving copies of the original charter in the British Library. Parliament will be a backcloth to the celebrations, not a focal point. True, we have two facsimile copies of Magna Carta in this House. One is in one of our Division Lobbies and has been there for a very long time; the other is in the Royal Gallery, put there recently, courtesy of the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell. But they are not the real thing and the British Library intends to restrict the display of the four surviving originals to allow experts to study them and members of the public who pay to see them, or with free tickets obtained by ballot. I understand that the originals will be reunited for just three days before two of them are returned to the custody of Lincoln and Salisbury Cathedrals. What visible role will this Parliament play in all that? I have yet to be enlightened. I look to the Front Bench to enlighten me on that.
This is rightly a joint Anglo-American celebration. I have to say the Americans have seized the opportunity to show what they owe to Magna Carta with greater enthusiasm than anything so far evident on this side of the Atlantic. The Law Library of Congress will display a later revision of the Great Charter sent from England. Another copy will go to the Houston Museum of Natural Science in Texas, where over a million people are expected to see it. Parliament will have nothing to match that. Yes, certainly there will be events in Parliament Square, a parliamentary education centre if the money can be found, and the annual Parliament Week with its own programme of events, which are all well and good. But I submit we need to do more, a lot more, to raise public interest and alert the nation to the significance of what happened 800 years ago.
As things stand, my concerns and my fears are that we shall lose a once-in-a-century opportunity to proclaim Parliament’s seminal role in the advancement and protection of Magna Carta’s most basic principles. In many parts of the world, they are still revolutionary principles. Billions of people are denied their basic human rights. Let us rekindle their hope by showing them that change is possible and democracy works.
Let us not forget either that 2015 is the 750th anniversary of Simon de Montfort’s Parliament—another Baron who confronted an over-mighty executive. Let us remember also the monarchy’s role in all this. The Queen is patron of the Magna Carta Trust, which oversees the celebrations. The monarch is sovereign because the Crown is constitutional. That seed was also sown in 1215 and the monarchy is stronger than ever before.
Previous efforts to involve Parliament more closely have got nowhere. Last December, the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, asked what plans the Government had for the anniversary. He offered a brilliant idea. He suggested that the four original copies of the charter should be exhibited together for the first time, perhaps in Westminster Hall. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, replied for the Government at that time. “That’s a very good suggestion”, he said. He was sure the organising committee would welcome it. I regret to say they did not and I hope very much they will reconsider. Let there be no doubt about it: the original copies of the charter should be here in Westminster Hall. I will tell you something: if I were still wearing the robes of Speaker of the Commons, I would ask for a joint session of both Houses of Parliament in Westminster Hall to celebrate the anniversary, with at least one of the original charters as its centrepiece. The British Library could surely spare one of its two originals for just one day. We have held joint sessions in Westminster Hall for royal occasions and visiting leaders. What I propose would be no less memorable. I believe the whole world should see Magna Carta honoured where it truly belongs: in the heart of our democracy.
I am delighted to see my colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, in his place this afternoon. When this question was first raised in this House, he said:
“Magna Carta … remains one of the most noble documents of human history”.—[Official Report, 17/12/12; col. 1335.]
He was right. Let us rededicate ourselves to its principles in a manner that befits this Parliament and safeguards its most precious rights.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville (Con)
My Lords, how apt and suitable it is that this ground-breaking debate should have been introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, whose most distinguished Speakership of the Commons—the first of her gender—is exactly the right harbinger for the memorable celebrations that stretch in front of us. I am looking forward to hearing about their nature and detail, but I do not think any questions of mine will elicit more information than the noble Chairman of Committees is already going to tell us and of which we have some advance notice from the work programme of the further committees of both Houses that are designing this constitutional jamboree.
I have a personal link to the great events, in that for 24 years—the third longest tenure of any MP for the City of London since 1283—I represented the City in Parliament. The City is the only body specifically referred to in a provision of Magna Carta which still remains in force. It is in section 9, which provides that the City of London,
“shall have all the old liberties and customs which it has been used to have”.
Through my City connections, I am aware of one coincidence worth recording. In the great American celebration of 1776, the American Bar Association in 1976 moved lock, stock and barrel to London for its annual gathering. The Drapers’ Company, of which I am a liveryman, invited to its election dinner in July that notable American academic Professor Goodhart, father of my noble friend Lord Goodhart and at that time Master of University College Oxford, who was already co-opted onto a working party of welcome. In his guest-of-honour speech to the drapers, Professor Goodhart, after revealing that he came from a country with drapes but no drapers, and was thus overwhelmed suddenly to meet 200 drapers in a single hall, said that a more naive member of the welcoming party could not tell what all the fuss was about, whereupon another colleague whispered to the professor: “Silly old buffer; he doesn’t realise that it’s because of Adam Smith’s publication of The Wealth of Nations”.
For an American to be involved was also a bright omen for Sir Robert Worcester—now an Englishman from American roots—being so closely involved in the Magna Carta preparations. The great global law summit—a world-class international conference to be held in London in February 2015—though not, of course, a House of Lords event—is a splendid heir to the American Bar Association’s compliment in 1976.
The one sadness for some of us, perhaps for many and even for all, is that we should have been robbed by death in 2011 of the late Lord Bingham of Cornhill, whose book in 2010, The Rule of Law, was an offering to Magna Carta’s greatness and was described by reviewers as so much more than a book for lawyers. I am profoundly impressed by what the Library has served us up with in comprehensive briefing, and I personally commend the slim volume to which these events have introduced me in a splendid series published by Oxford University Press entitled Magna Carta: A Very Short Introduction by Professor Nicholas Vincent, professor of medieval history at the University of East Anglia. He has brought home to me how far back the seeds that led to Runnymede were sown and how much rolling of the wicket occurred in the decades that preceded the historic sealing—sealing, not signing—using seals that only the British Library still retains attached to the original charter. So far I have not been able to secure a copy of the late Lord Bingham’s speech in the Guildhall when Tip O’Neill, the Speaker of the House who died so recently, came over. However, I have a copy of the speech Lord Bingham gave at St Albans Cathedral in 2011, the year of his death, the forerunner to Professor Bogdanor’s similar address at the same festival this year.
It is a moment for remarking tiny data that one has noticed: that the 26 right reverend Prelates in your Lordships’ House today exercise the tiniest of majorities over the 25 Barons at Runnymede. It was, of course, a particular implication of chapter 39 of the charter that provided the basis for the creation of the Lords Spiritual as a separate category, as Enoch Powell’s history of the medieval House of Lords tells.
I am delighted that so much of the preparations of the parliamentary working parties are for educational plans, and I have one small suggestion to make. The noble Lord, Lord Bew, heard me suggest that a novel which embraced the G8 summit in Enniskillen this year would have been a suitable vehicle for spreading the word about such events, as did Ian Rankin’s novel about a similar summit held at Gleneagles. This time I shall draw on my own childhood and those of my sons. I grew up with the World War One board games of L’Attaque and Dover Patrol. In due course I found even better the World War Two version entitled Tri-Tactics. They were outstanding in that they were demanding but gentle games which introduced the young to the subtleties of warfare. Later I spent hours on the floor with my sons playing Kingmaker, the similar version for the Wars of the Roses which demanded a grasp of the interstices of strategy. Diplomacy was another version on a wider scale.
Having read the whys and wherefores and the toing and froing of Professor Vincent’s account of the prolonged run-up to Runnymede, I cannot but believe that you could make a highly educational and testing board game. To those who say that board games are passé, I would say that Monopoly and Cluedo are back. One of my grandsons told me that Buccaneer, another in the same genre, was the best birthday present he had had. There is plenty of time to design Runnymede.
In the mean time, I would be the last to describe this debate, which some might equate with what the House of Lords summons inexplicably includes, as “mere motion”. It is a marvellous fount of anticipation. For myself, I am optimistic about the total project and encouraged by the way that the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, wound up her speech.
Lord Parekh (Lab)
My Lords, I begin by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, for securing this debate and for introducing it with such eloquence and wisdom. When looking at the 800th anniversary celebrations of Magna Carta, it is important to bear in mind four or five features of the charter which are in danger of being ignored.
First, it is not a democratic document. Democracy is the rule of the people. What Magna Carta does is provide the rule of law. The two are quite different. Happily, Magna Carta introduced the rule of law and, in so doing, it prepared the ground for the liberalism that would eventually prepare the ground for democracy. It has allowed us to consolidate our liberal democracy in the way we have.
Secondly, Magna Carta is the product of the threat of civil war. Some 26 Barons had threatened to take up arms unless King John agreed, but even when he did agree in order to avoid civil war, the Pope voided the document and war broke out. It was reissued after King John’s death. In other words, it tells us something very English while at the same time something very universal about history. It did not come unasked and it did not come without the threat of violence, rather it came about as the result of an enormous amount of pressure building up on the king of the day.
Thirdly, it does not talk in terms of general legal principles, which again is a very English way of approaching the problem. It deals with specific grievances, to which specific responses are made in the context of the just thing to do. These are then generalised and translated into large-scale universal legal and moral principles.
Fourthly, we should not forget that in clause 20 it reiterates the medieval Christian principle that human needs must be given priority over everything else, which is why it says, for example, that if a man commits an offence, the King should fine him, but not so heavily as to deprive him of his livelihood. A merchant may not be deprived of his merchandise and a villein or a worker may not be deprived of the instruments of his husbandry. His livelihood is his natural right which may never be trampled upon.
The other thing it does very explicitly is in clause 16. It talks about how people who owe money to the Jews should be treated, and goes on to say that non-Jews should be treated in exactly the same way. This establishes an important principle which counters any form of anti-Semitism. At that time, that was an extraordinary contribution, and we should not ignore it and simply talk about democracy.
Finally, it ensures the freedom of the Church. The King assures the barons that not only will the Church be left free to practise its own liturgy but that there will be no interference in its elections.
If these are some of the important distinguishing features of this historic document, the question is how to celebrate its 800th anniversary. Why are we celebrating it in the first instance? The reason is twofold. First, it is to reaffirm and deepen our own commitment to the rule of law, which, as we know from the experience of the past forty years, is constantly in danger of being eroded. It is intended to remind us of the great tradition to which we belong and of how we can continue to affirm the heritage that we cherish.
The second objective is to spread awareness of the rule of law in the rest of the world, and, if I may be a little devious, to affirm our soft power. It reminds the world that we have achieved something very significant in our history of which the world should take note. If these are our two objectives—to reaffirm and deepen our own commitment to the rule of law and to affirm the commitment to the rest of the world and in so doing to increase our soft power—the rest of what I am going to say follows.
Take the first objective. How do we deepen and reaffirm our own commitment? Exhibitions are all right. People will come and people will go. We need to catch young people and get them to realise what our history has been about, what the rule of law is about and what constraints it imposes upon executive power. Therefore we should be organising lectures and seminars in schools and in major cities up and down the country, encouraging local events and holding a national essay competition, as has happened in some other countries in relation to other events. Continuing with the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, made, I favour an annual lecture in Westminster Hall where the two Houses can meet to take stock of where we are in the field of the rule of law. It may not be entirely inappropriate. It will allow the two Houses to meet regularly as well as provide an occasion to take a moral and political audit of where we stand at any given time.
As far as the rest of the world is concerned, I have two suggestions. I hope they are not presumptuous but worth considering. First, the British Council should be asked to take an active role in sponsoring and establishing annual lectures in key countries, designed to explore further the idea of the rule of law. If I may be even more ambitious—I do not think we are that short of money—I should have thought that the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta was an occasion in our history where we might institute a prize comparable to the Nobel Prize, given by the British people through the agency of the British Government, to the person who, during the particular year, has contributed the most to establishing the rule of law. Some such imaginative idea equivalent in importance to the Nobel Prize would be a worthy tribute to this great event.
Lord Addington (LD)
My Lords, I find myself in a position that reminds me of the first intervention that I think I made in this Parliament. At Question Time, the noble Lord, Lord Hill, was asked about why some historian—I cannot remember which one—was being removed from the national curriculum. I stood up, from a little further back than I am now, and suggested to the noble Lord that we should not worry about the nuances of a particular historian but about the facts, because intellectual fashions change. I compared intellectual fashions to hemlines.
I am probably of an unfashionable hemline and an unfashionable tradition in history, for which the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, of course has to take some responsibility, as he was running the University of Aberdeen when I was there as a student. I come from a school of historians, which I do not think is popular now, which did not regard Magna Carta as being that big a deal. It was something that failed; it was the control of those outside resisting the creation of a modern, centralised state where you control power and did not deal with your overmighty subjects. It was a symbol of King John’s failure, and was then imposed on Henry III, who is nobody’s idea of a romantic hero. He did not assert full control of his kingdom until the age of 29, which is very old by medieval standards, and ended up, in the last part of his career, with the kingdom effectively run by his son, who had to win a battle and a civil war for him after the rebellion of Simon de Montfort. Magna Carta was issued a couple of times during that reign.
Magna Carta is reissued and referred back to every time the overmighty subjects beat up a king. “You have failed, we are going to impose something on you”, they say. When I discovered that I was very unfashionable, in terms of intellectual background, I did a bit of reading. Magna Carta itself refers back to a conveyance of rights from the reign of Henry I. The barons then imposed it on King John, who was known as Softsword—today that would be a sexual reference but then it referred to the fact that he was not very good at fighting, or at least was not perceived to be. The fact that the statues round here, dusty as they may be, are wearing armour and thumbing broadswords conveys quite a lot of what I read about that process. I always felt that a successful baron was like a medieval Hell’s Angels leader, in that he came in and asserted his rights by force, through his skill at arms.
Magna Carta has gone on to be something else and the idea has emerged, whether justifiably or not, that the rule of law comes from it and seems to be embodied in it. If I go past a copy or a facsimile of it here with Americans, they stop and go, “Wow”. I was always much more impressed by the draft Declaration of Rights when we had it on display here, with its crossings-out and ink-stains, which set out the tripartite idea of sovereignty: Lords, Commons and Crown together. It may just be an educational accident, but I am told that I am intellectually cynical. The idea of Parliament did not get going until a fair bit after Magna Carta. It was something that was generally called when the Executive—the English royal family—wanted money out of their subjects, usually to fight a war. That was something different.
Magna Carta may have set up an idea, but a study into the way that an idea grows and captures attention and the way you refer back to a golden age might be a more important thing than its point in history. It might be more important to look at the fact that it can suggest something else to somebody. The events themselves will be argued over, but the fact that you are still arguing over them is probably a greater contribution to an idea than any historical events will be. I hope that we can reflect that and do not make it out to be some great, almost religious, experience on the part of those imposing it. It was not. It was somebody saying, “We will deal with our problems now”. When they did not get their own way, they called in a French army to get rid of the king. That does not sound like the start of democracy to me.
Baroness Lane-Fox of Soho (CB)
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, for proposing this debate. To me, a novice in this House, she is a titan in it and an inspiration. I admit some relief in speaking before the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, who will make his maiden speech, and I wish him well.
I agree that the reach of the Magna Carta has been profound, but I suggest that this is an opportunity to increase it dramatically. The idea came to me during an experience a couple of weeks ago. I take part in the charity Speakers for Schools, set up by the BBC economics editor, Robert Peston. It sends people doing interesting things into schools to encourage the pupils. Speaking in this Chamber is testing; it is matched only by speaking to 200 or 300 15 to 16 year-olds. Two weeks ago, as I said, I spoke at a fabulous school in a very deprived area of Willesden. To break the ice and calm my nerves, I asked the pupils in the room how many had heard of the website that I co-founded, lastminute.com. To my surprise, around 80% of hands shot up. I then asked how many had heard of the House of Lords. Imagine my surprise when only around 5% of hands shot up.
I tell this story not so that noble Lords may congratulate me on my notorious website but, rather, to share a worry. It is a profound problem for us all if people understand the buying of holidays online better than our Parliament. It is not only in the classrooms of Willesden that there is a lack of knowledge. As noble Lords may remember, even our own Prime Minister struggled to answer when the American chat-show host, David Letterman, asked him the contents of the Magna Carta.
I would like to suggest that this anniversary could be a wonderful opportunity to try to engage a new generation with the history and impact of the institutions in our democracy. Next year is the 25th anniversary of the invention of the world wide web by Sir Tim Berners-Lee, another globally important invention from the United Kingdom. I think we should launch a groundbreaking project, led from this House, to create a Magna Carta for the 21st century, and I think we should use the web to do it.
There is a phenomenon on the internet called crowdsourcing, where you ask for ideas, services or even money by getting contributions from a large group of people. Sites such as Kickstarter or Peoplefund.it are increasingly used by companies wanting to test products or by charities needing money for projects. I think that the original Magna Carta is an amazing early example of crowdsourcing. You have only to read part of its history to see how each clause was debated and how much it was tweaked and changed to reflect a variety of interests. Would it not be phenomenal to use the technologies of today to reimagine the document and, in doing so, try to inspire more interest in and understanding of the work of Parliament?
There are already examples of Governments who have attempted to redraw their constitutions using the power of the internet. In 2010, the Finnish Government approved technology behind a new open ministry platform, which acts as a hub for citizens who want new laws voted on in the country’s Parliament. After the financial collapse of 2008, the Icelandic Government used social media to rebuild their constitution and involve all citizens in new policies. As Minister Thorvaldur Gylfason said:
“The public sees the constitution come into being before their eyes … This is very different from old times where constitution makers sometimes found it better to find themselves a remote spot out of sight, out of touch".
This, to me, is the crucial point.
We are living in a time when we know people feel disengaged and disinterested in the process of policy-making, yet this work affects everyone. Noble Lords should have seen the amazed looks on the faces of those pupils in Willesden when I explained some of the legislation going through this House.
Let us build on the anniversary of the web in 2014 and create a Magna Carta for now; not a formal constitution but a living, breathing, open document that could be created and live on the web. With the power of networks in this House and the clever engagement of the technology sector, I think we could create a wonderful mechanism to engage more people—and, crucially, more young people—with the extraordinary legacy of the document so famously sealed, finally, in 1215.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con)
My Lords, I am most grateful for the custom of securing the Chamber Doors; it serves to preserve an audience that I might otherwise lose. I have no illusions, at least in my case, that there are hordes of Peers clamouring outside to get in.
When I arrived here just a few short weeks ago, people told me to expect something like school—which I can just about remember—and it is: corridors that all look the same; bells going off, here Division bells but there class bells; the friendly rivalry of the party system, just like the house system at school; and the kindness of the staff and the encouragement of the Whips, like benevolent prefects and teachers. Before I get barred from the restaurants here, let me make haste to say that the institutional analogy breaks down with the catering—the catering here is like Nigella Lawson, Gary Rhodes and Jamie Oliver all rolled into one, at the top of their form.
As I say, everyone here has been most kind. My two sponsors, my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral and the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, have been helpful, thoughtful and supportive. So, too, has my mentor, my noble friend Lady Fookes. I should also mention one other person who has helped me here. When I was a student at Cambridge, my first public speaking meeting was chaired by a certain councillor, Mrs Jean Barker, now my noble friend Lady Trumpington. She presided with great grace, panache and aplomb. I seem to remember, too, that there was quite a lot of drink and eats. If noble Lords blame anyone for my being here, please blame the noble Baroness.
Before arriving here, I had three distinct careers. First, I was a barrister and company secretary of a public company based in London. I helped to market law and accountancy courses, especially in the Far East—in Malaysia, Singapore and Hong Kong principally, but also in the subcontinent. Secondly, I became professor of law at the Swansea Institute, now Swansea Metropolitan University, and moved to Wales. Thirdly, when I thought my political career was over, having lost a couple of elections for the other place, I became a Member of the National Assembly for Wales in 1999, then Leader of the Conservative Party in the National Assembly and latterly leader of the Opposition in that body. I became convinced that effective devolution was good not only for Wales but for the unity of our United Kingdom.
The Magna Carta of 1215 is the basis of most of our freedoms and a basic statement of the rule of law. I believe that it is rather a significant document. It was described by Lord Denning as,
“the greatest constitutional document of all times—the foundation of the freedom of the individual against the arbitrary authority of the”,
state. Far be it from me to disagree with such a great legal brain.
Its principles have been adopted by the United States and much of the Commonwealth. True, much of it has been superseded and repealed, but it still rightly has immense iconic significance. It is quite right that it should be celebrated. The noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, is right: we need to do more, and I hope that people are listening to this debate so that we may. We need to have events, cultural and ceremonial, that give renewal to its central messages, and I applaud efforts being made to do just that. The Magna Carta 800th committee and partner organisations such as the excellent British Council, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, are doing excellent work; I declare an interest as a member of the advisory council of the British Council in Wales. I trust that there will be a positive response to the noble Baroness’s very passionate and justified appeal.
What lessons are there for us 800 years on? I associate myself with much of what the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, said—we need to look anew at the issue of having constitutional documents containing our fundamental freedoms. Should our precious freedoms be set out in some constitutional document? I know that this has not been the traditional British approach. Mr Podsnap in Dickens’s Our Mutual Friend was asked in relation to our unwritten constitution how other countries do:
“’They do, Sir’, returned Mr Podsnap, gravely shaking his head; ‘they do—I am sorry to be obliged to say—as they do!’”.
A written constitution, even an entrenched one, is admittedly no guarantor of liberty and rights. Some of the worst despotisms in the world have written constitutions. Yet with democratic roots, and with some of the challenges that we now face that are posed to our liberties, this question needs looking at anew.
Interestingly, Magna Carta has separate provisions for Wales and Scotland. It is perhaps a precursor both of the Union and of devolution. In the light of our relatively new devolution arrangements within the United Kingdom, I wonder whether a constitutional document should now set out the legal rights and duties of the United Kingdom, building, I hope, on the work of the Silk commission—I declare an interest here, as a member of that commission—and after the referendum in Scotland.
What is clear is that it is indisputable that liberty’s DNA in these islands can be traced back to Magna Carta, and wherever there is a challenge to liberty:
“The whisper wakes, the shudder plays,
Across the reeds at Runnymede”,
as Kipling evocatively said. This anniversary is an important one. We do right to honour it. We must ensure that the event is marked graphically and indelibly, and that it leaves an enduring memory.
Lord Bew (CB)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the excellent maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth. If, as he says, he owes something to the inspiration of the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, I can assure him that he is not the only person in this House who feels the same way. It was clear that, as a former professor of law, the noble Lord is extremely well equipped to discuss the legacy of Magna Carta. He brings to this House experience of, and a contribution to, the political life of Wales, and also to the charitable sector in Wales, which is enormously valuable. Noble Lords have heard the first of what I hope will be many decisive and helpful interventions from the noble Lord.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, for her Question, and her keen interest in the plans for 2015. I speak as the co-chair of the Speakers’ advisory group for the 2015 anniversaries. I share the post with Peter Luff, MP, from the House of Commons. I pay tribute briefly to Tristram Hunt, MP, who has for the past several months been the Commons co-chair of that committee, but who has recently had to resign because of his promotion to shadow Education Secretary. If, as I very much hope, the celebrations in 2015 turn out to be an event of significance and importance, that will owe something to the work of Tristram Hunt in the past few months.
There are currently seven Peer members and six MP members of this group, and we have additional support from two external members—Canon Jane Hedges from Westminster Abbey and Professor David Carpenter from King’s College London. As part of Parliament Week 2013, on 19 November Professor Carpenter will give a lecture in Portcullis House on “Magna Carta and the emergence of Parliament”, which we hope Members will wish to attend.
The advisory group has been established to act as a consultative body to support and advise the Speakers and officials on matters relating to the anniversary programme, and we are working to develop a set of activities to run throughout 2015. The group assists parliamentary officials in fulfilling ambitions to deliver an accessible, innovative and engaging programme. The advisory group considers and comments on proposals put forward by officials of both Houses for the anniversary programme, ensures a voice for the Members within the programme, monitors associated risks, and will ultimately participate in the evaluation process. Very importantly, the group advocates for the 2015 programme externally and across both Houses. To that end, I am glad to see here today the noble Lords, Lord Cormack and Lord McNally, whose contribution to the work of our committee has already been outstanding. I am enormously in their debt.
Any critical decisions, in particular those relating to finances, are additionally passed through the usual House committee procedures. Although we have plans for a very full programme for 2015 covering educational, ceremonial and showcase events, much of this work remains in the nascent stages, so it is not yet possible for me to give full details of programme content at this point. However, I am moved to respond to the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, and to say that I fully understand the points that she made. We are endeavouring to deliver something that she will recognise as satisfactory. We are focused on that and are determined not to disappoint her, if I may put it like that. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, may be able to give some further detail in the concluding remarks of this debate. We very much wish to outline our desire to use these important and historic moments as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to increase public understanding and appreciation of the tradition and evolution of Parliament.
Beyond Magna Carta, the 2015 programme will commemorate the important anniversaries of the de Montfort Parliament, which can be seen as the beginning of a tradition which led to the House of Commons, and we will also have the anniversaries of Agincourt, Waterloo and the death of Churchill. When Churchill succumbed to a stroke in 1965 he interrupted the 750th and 700th anniversary plans for that year with a number of last-minute alterations and cancellations needed. Particularly in this Chamber, where many of Churchill’s most celebrated later speeches were given, it is of tremendous importance that we pay attention to the 50th anniversary of his death. I assure Members that the advisory group is mindful that all these anniversaries are marked appropriately. For instance, we will support the Churchill Alliance with its 2015 plans and are currently exploring the possibility of working with the History of Parliament Trust on an event to commemorate Members who fought at Agincourt.
Furthermore, we have chosen to use the medieval moments as a stepping stone into the whole story of our democratic heritage. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, is quite right. This is a complicated story. We want to use this approach to highlight other significant events that have led to the rights and representation that we enjoy today. We will develop partnerships which enable us to talk to communities across the United Kingdom about their local contributions to our national story, picking up on key moments and events on both a local and national level to tell the wider narrative of democratic evolution.
In the information pack that Members have received there is a very elegant St Albans Magna Carta lecture by Professor Vernon Bogdanor. He makes the point that, for example, in the 17th century the Levellers employed concepts from Magna Carta as a means of putting pressure on the king. That is an example of the appropriation of Magna Carta in the struggle for change in our country. There is of course a vastly important tradition of legal commentary that dates from the 17th century which might be seen as a similar attempt to assert the rule of law against the divine right of kings. The most celebrated example from the 19th century was referred to by Professor Malcolm Chase in a lecture on the Chartists given in the last fortnight in Speaker’s House, at the invitation of the All-Party Group on Archives and History. He pointed to the way in which the Chartists had again appropriated the language of the Magna Carta in a similar way to the Levellers, as part of a particular struggle.
We are trying to develop a partnership with the Riverside Theatre in Newport which I hope will work with us on a project to mark the important contribution of the Chartists. As well as stand-alone events such as this, the programme offers large-scale join-in opportunities for organisations. These will include Parliament Week, which in 2015, after a year of looking back, will take the theme, “What will the next 800 years look like?”, and will have the specific aim of engaging young people in forward thinking about the future of democracy. We envisage that by taking this broader approach we will be better able to deliver a programme which is directly relevant to communities across the whole United Kingdom.
The noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, was quite correct to say that we have a problem. It is not so much that people are fundamentally questioning the institutions of liberal democracy in our society—in some ways the intellectual questioning of the institutions of liberal democracy has never been at a lower level, and was more strongly contested 150 years ago than it is today. However, because of events that we are all familiar with, which have lowered the standing of Members of Parliament in the eyes of the public, we have a problem with the perception of Parliament in broader society.
As an historian I am acutely aware of the power of history to provide lessons for our own time. Our long democratic heritage is something which we should be duly proud of and I believe we can use these anniversaries to raise awareness of the work and institutional value of both Houses to a range of new audiences. More specifically, many of our proposed activities in 2015 are designed for young people, whether in school, university, or informal settings. It is not a question of telling a naïve story about the growth of our democracy. The noble Lord, Lord Parekh, explained very crisply exactly what the relationship is between Magna Carta and the subsequent evolution of the rule of law and democracy in our country. We will be trying to adhere to the same degree of crispness, elegance and accuracy in presentation in all that we do. I conclude by saying that it is our hope that we will succeed in 2015 in not disappointing the noble Baroness.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, it is very good to be the first on this side of the House to be able to congratulate my noble friend Lord Bourne on an excellent maiden speech. The first maiden speech I had to comment on was that of Mr Dennis Skinner way back in 1970. I said I hoped he would be heard often in the future, I was certainly correct in suggesting he might be, and I hope we will hear more of my noble friend. He was right to make reference to Wales and Scotland. We must not forget that among those to whom Magna Carta is addressed in the preamble is Alan de Galloway, constable of Scotland.
I must declare my interest. Not only am I a member of the committee to which the noble Lord, Lord Bew, referred, but I also have the honour to be the chairman of the History of Parliament Trust and of the Historic Lincoln Trust. In all of those capacities I am seeking to work to ensure that 2015 is a memorable year. We have some marvellous events planned in Lincoln, and I believe that my noble friend—I deliberately call her that—Lady Boothroyd will not be too disappointed by what happens here in Westminster. I agree about the dusting of the statues, I hope something can be done there. The barons and the two bishops who look down on us day by day have not received any housekeeping attention for an extremely long time. As one looks up and thinks of them—the four Williams, the earls of Pembroke, Salisbury, Warren and Arundel, the great barons—one does realise that we owe them a very real debt for what they did to bring the King to account. I do not subscribe to the somewhat jaundiced view of Magna Carta which was advanced in a slightly curmudgeonly way by the noble Lord, Lord Addington. Well, de gustibus non est disputandum.
Lord Cormack
Quoting Latin is entirely permissible in this Chamber. What I would like to say to the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, in particular, is that I have been able to have discussions with the Deans of Lincoln and Salisbury and with the chief executive and chairman of the British Library, the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, and I am not unhopeful that the sort of event to which she referred will take place. Obviously further negotiations have to be conducted, but I believe that it would be wholly appropriate to see the four documents here. Whether Westminster Hall would be the right place because of the climatic conditions is a different matter, but it would be good to see them here. Westminster Hall should certainly have great events. In 1965, Her Majesty the Queen came to commemorate the 750th anniversary of Magna Carta and the 700th anniversary of the de Montfort Parliament. I very much hope that something similar will be able to happen in 2015. I can also say to noble Lords that I have had some conversations with the Halle Orchestra, and I hope there will be some wonderful performance in Westminster Hall that year.
It wants to be a really resoundingly memorable year in every possible way, and of course it wants to reach out to young people. I hope that we will do symbolic things. On 15 June, the anniversary itself, when we all hope that there will be a great event at Runnymede, it would be appropriate for there to be a public holiday and for Parliament to adjourn, after a brief sitting, to Runnymede and be there with Her Majesty the Queen. That would be entirely right and proper. I hope we might persuade those other countries for which Magna Carta is so important to have a public holiday on that day as well so that we are united in our recognition of the importance of the rule of law.
I would like Westminster Hall to have banners around it with the two ringingly endorsable clauses. Clause 39 reads:
“No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled, or deprived of his standing in any other way, nor will we proceed with force against him, or send others to do so, except by the lawful judgment of his equals or by the law of the land”.
Then there is the much pithier clause 40:
“To no one will we sell, to no one deny or delay right or justice”.
It would be good to have that right around Westminster Hall so that young people in particular can recognise the continuity of Magna Carta, and its fundamental importance to our very way of life. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, will feel that those of us who serve on the Committee from the two Houses of Parliament are entirely at one with her in her sentiments of wanting this to be a really memorable year in the history of our Parliament and country. We are certainly determined in Lincoln, where we have one of the four original copies, to make it one of the most memorable years in our history, with exhibitions, a Three Choirs Festival and many other things—all of these, I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, reaching out particularly to the young. For the youth of the nation are indeed the trustees of our posterity.
Lord Dykes (LD)
My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow my former Commons colleague the noble Lord, Lord Cormack. We worked together on a number of schemes, some including human rights, both overseas and in the UK. We, as MPs, came to know of his knowledge of and affection for the history of parliaments from ancient times and of his experience of reading and writing about those things. We are very grateful. This is an important occasion. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd; I was impressed that she was well under her time limit in her opening, which was commendable.
I share some of the noble Baroness’s anxieties and concerns about some things. Although they will be immensely important, the World War 1 commemoration period, over several years, will have far more government money attached to it than anything to do with the Magna Carta celebrations. That is a pity. In a historical context, Magna Carta is deeply inspiring.
We are grateful, too, for the excellent maiden speech from the main coalition party Benches of my noble friend Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth. His knowledge of this matter is profound, and I am sure that he will be heavily involved in a number of these activities. I am also grateful for the excellent historical analysis of the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, and my noble friend Lord Addington. They gave the original background to it. We should not get carried away with the starry-eyed Mills and Boon version of Magna Carta which is not really true. The gradual development over hundreds of years of democracy as we now know it, as well as the importance of the rule of law, was opportunistic, episodic and accidental. The Glorious Revolution of 1688 was one stage in that process, as were the United States’s declaration of independence and constitution. What a pity we did not pay more attention to the French Revolution’s Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen because we were afraid of it; it is a substantial document but little known in this country because of the intellectual and psychological gap between the political cultures of the continent and ourselves, with our Anglo-Saxon and Anglo-American traditions.
I am also grateful—this is a time for mentioning gratitude, I think—to Sir Robert Worcester, that talented and noble son of Kansas as was, but now an English American, for leading the Magna Carta Trust committee and planning a number of events. I am particularly glad he sent me a helpful briefing memorandum about this debate. It reminded me that, speaking at the UN General Assembly in 1948, as she submitted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Mrs Eleanor Roosevelt argued that,
“we stand today at the threshold of a great event both in the life of the United Nations and in the life of mankind. This declaration may well become the international Magna Carta for all men everywhere”.
That is very telling in the way it rebounded around the world as more and more countries realised the importance of the various texts in the Magna Carta and the subsequent editions of it and what it meant for us.
Hundreds of events have been considered and planned with the hope, according to this memorandum, that in 2015 more than 100 countries will be commemorating the importance of what began on an open plain 800 years earlier to this generation and many generations to come. The danger is that it will not be noticed enough by the media unless there is real force and psychological strength behind that effort. That does need a lot of attention and organisation. It is amazing how quickly time goes when one is coming up to a deadline of that kind.
I note, too, that after the Second World War Germany and Japan were apprised, quite rightly, of the virtues of the Magna Carta, in its modernised form, the text, what it meant and the rule of law. What a model democracy Germany has become after the nightmare it went through with the Third Reich. It is a very impressive achievement, and we are proud to be friends with the great German people.
I believe, too, that even though one of our weaknesses—and it is a controversial point, so I apologise in advance for making it—is in not having a written constitution, there is a feeling of pride in many people that we are unusual and unique in not having one, although all the other Commonwealth countries which came from the Anglo-Saxon tradition directly with independence much earlier than the colonies do have commendable written constitutions. At least, though, we have access to the European treaties, which are an international kind of constitutional backcloth to the rule of law and human rights, and the European Convention on Human Rights. All those things started 800 years ago as gradualistic concepts in a very different context with very few people involved. The barons in those days were very exclusive indeed, unlike the huge, overlarge House of Lords Chamber we have now with far too many barons. Despite that reality all of us would like to be considered to be here validly, both the noble Barons and the noble Baronesses. The more noble Baronesses we have, the better.
There is a lot to be done. I think that if all those threads come together and the Government put a reasonable budget figure on the expenditure as well as other organisations and the private fundraising that will go on, this can be a great occasion for all of us to be proud with lessons for the future and particularly for the younger generation.
Lord Bilimoria (CB)
My Lords, Sir Bob Worcester, the chairman of the Magna Carta 800th anniversary commemoration committee, in a recent speech, summed it up really well—foundation of human rights, father of all constitutions, basis of our civil liberties, rights of free men and now women and of legal tradition, the bedrock of our systems of democracy. Then he says, “Who are its guardians?”. He says it is our system of rule of law, jurisprudence, justice. I say the guardian of this nation is this wonderful, unelected House, which is the cornerstone of our democracy.
As the first Zoroastrian Parsee to sit in this House, I would like to talk about Cyrus the Great, one of the greatest emperors of the ancient world, best known for two things. The first is the Cyrus cylinder, perhaps the first recognisable modern legal instrument. In the UK we consider the role of the Magna Carta. Without fail when I take people round this House, I show them the facsimile copy in the Contents Lobby. We think it is great: sealed in 1215 on the field of Runnymede; the first bill of rights; power of the barons over the king; the establishment of the House of Lords and the House of Commons; a Parliament free of the direct control of the monarch.
However, the Magna Carta is juvenile compared to Cyrus’s cylinder—a declaration found in the ruins of ancient Babylon that set out the great deeds and genealogy of Emperor Cyrus. Created around 530 BC, the cylinder notes Cyrus’s great humility and tolerance, which formed vital aspects of the tradition of the Zoroastrian faith. This is true because of the role that Cyrus played, not just in the protection but in the active promotion of many religions and faiths that flourished in the Persian empire during his time. It cites his building projects and the territories that he conquered.
Cyrus is well known for his magnanimity. A specific example is the refuge that he gave to the Jews in Egypt. Is that not amazing? Magnanimous—Magna Carta. Neither Cyrus nor the Magi priests in his court who acted as advisers sought to convert the people of the conquered lands to the Zoroastrian faith.
I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd. What a fabulous speech—as always. “A celebration of democracy”, she said. She says that the House of Lords feels left out, and that the Houses of Parliament should be the headquarters of the celebration in the 800th year. All four original copies should be here. Her idea of a joint session of both Houses to celebrate it is fantastic, and it should take place on 15 June 2015.
We know that the British Library holds two copies of the original Magna Carta. I am proud to be an ambassador for the British Library’s Business & IP Centre, and I assure noble Lords that I will do my best to try to persuade it to play a role. The noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, mentioned the Prime Minister stumbling on American TV when he was asked what Magna Carta stood for. He could not say, “the Great Charter”, and he could not remember the date, 15 June 1215. We need everyone, particularly schoolchildren, to know this. The noble Lord, Lord Bourne, in his excellent maiden speech, mentioned the British Council. We have this wonderful institution, of which the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, is deputy chairman, to spread the word of the Magna Carta in these celebrations around the world through our British Council centres.
The noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, spoke of a Magna Carta for now. Why do not we—the House of Lords—have a competition around the country for schoolchildren to come up with a Magna Carta for today, and then have the debate in the House of Lords that we have every year? It would be wonderful. We do not have a written constitution. In a recent speech, Vernon Bogdanor said that almost every country has a written constitution, but our constitution has evolved, adapted and developed. It has been spontaneous. We do not want a written constitution; it would not be right for the structure that exists now. But what a wonderful idea to have a competition for a Magna Carta for today.
I am so thrilled to hear the noble Lord, Lord Bew, give his assurance to the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, that she, and we, will not be disappointed. That is very reassuring. I ask the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, to reaffirm this reassurance. There is no question that the Magna Carta celebrations should be held in the magna-Parliament—this Parliament here in Westminster.
Baroness Prashar (CB)
My Lords, as Baroness Prashar, of Runnymede, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, for initiating this debate with such enthusiasm and passion, and I agree with all that she said. As we know, Magna Carta has played a critical role in developing our form of democratic government, subject to the rule of law. It is important because of the influence it has had, not only in this country but around the globe, and particularly in the Commonwealth, in establishing the constitutional principles governing any society committed to the rule of law, which as we know is fundamental to any democracy.
It was also influential when the European Convention on Human Rights was drawn up. Its significance was captured by in a lecture in Australia in 2003 by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine—I had the pleasure of hearing it in person—who said:
“In many respects Magna Carta has transcended the distinction between law and politics and its legacy represents a joint commitment by Monarchs, Parliamentarians and the Courts, to the rule of law”.
However, despite the importance of Magna Carta worldwide, it has never had the recognition that it deserves in this country. The monument in Runnymede, to which I always take my visitors, has no information available on the significance of Magna Carta. This illustrates to me the complacency we have about our freedoms. The 800th anniversary is an opportunity to rectify the situation and reaffirm our commitment to the rule of law. It is a golden opportunity to develop activities which will help revitalise and reaffirm the fundamental principles of Magna Carta.
I read with interest the briefing provided by the House of Lords Library and the description of parliamentary plans for the celebrations. I am pleased that the aim of the programme will be to promote wider public engagement with Parliament and create partnerships with external bodies. I think that is very important. I was also pleased to see that Parliament will produce educational materials and will support Magna Carta-related education projects to be delivered by the British Council. I declare that I am a deputy chair of the British Council. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, on his maiden speech and assure the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, that work is in hand by the British Council not only to work on educational materials but to rekindle the spirit of Magna Carta internationally.
It is important that emphasis is placed on education and engagement of the wider public, particularly the young. It is also important that these activities raise awareness, highlight the universal relevance of the Magna Carta in today’s world and make it a living, breathing document. In his St Albans lecture in August, which was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Bew, Professor Vernon Bogdanor said:
“The era of … representative democracy, as it has been understood for much of the 20th century, is now coming to an end”.
I agree, so what we need now are initiatives which encourage participation in order to harness civic spirit in our communities and young people. We need to emphasise the importance of the rule of law as a basis of a viable democracy. I emphasise that this anniversary provides that opportunity.
I will draw attention to an exemplary initiative in Egham, a town very near to Runnymede, where Magna Carta was sealed. This initiative, “Magna Carta in Egham”, is led by Egham Museum and I am associated with it. The impetus for this project sprang from concern that the planned celebrations would be a passing spectacle which would leave local residents passive bystanders without any involvement or lasting legacy. To ensure that this does not happen, volunteers—I emphasise that they are volunteers—from Egham Museum are working to produce online resources to support debates and are organising a series of Magna Carta constitutional conventions, bringing students from across the UK to Runnymede to debate and draft a modern-day charter. They are also planning an exhibition at Egham Museum with satellite displays at various locations around the area. A lot more activities will also take place using new media. I was delighted to hear what the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, said in that regard. Perhaps we need to collaborate to ensure that we can harness what is happening.
The important thing is that the focus is on local engagement and participation. It is these types of activities which need support and outreach from this House and Parliament. While symbolic events and celebrations are extremely important, this Parliament needs to reach out. I therefore urge this House to work in partnership with such imaginative and community-based projects and use the occasion of Magna Carta’s anniversary to encourage participation, help unleash local civic spirit, and make the best use of new technology to ensure that that happens. We are not a closed House; we must link up with what happens locally.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
My Lords, I join all noble Lords in thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, for providing the opportunity for today’s excellent debate, which has been most interesting and to the high standard usually found in this House. I thank all speakers for their contribution. In particular, I praise the maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, which was excellent and of very high quality. There have been three maiden speeches today, of rising quality, which has set the bar very high for those who have to follow. I noted, as other noble Lords will have done, his early bid to be appointed to the Refreshment Committee. This raises the stakes a bit for those who are yet to come. These days, if you want to put in a bid for where you want to be in a few years, you have to do it in your maiden speech—that sounds a bit daft.
The noble Lord and other speakers mentioned a theme which came out of these discussions—whether or not we should have a written constitution. We do, of course, have a written constitution. The problem is that it is dispersed into so many different documents. What we are really talking about is codifying our existing constitutional documents into a single place. That would have been a fantastic solution to the question of how to celebrate Magna Carta in 2015. It may take us until 2115 but we should not give up the aim to do it. The noble Lord is correct, and I absolutely agree with him on that point.
I also thank the Library for its very high-quality briefing which brought us right into the debate. It was interesting to read Magna Carta again. It is difficult to know what it is these days, because it is hard to imagine what it would have been like when it first came out. It came across to me, in a curious way, as a bit like a manifesto—that is the nearest analogy I can think of. When you became sovereign you had to engage with those you ruled in order to gain their acceptance of your ability to rule, a bit like a modern-day manifesto.
Other noble Lords have spoken very well about what it means to have a Magna Carta. I endorse a lot of what has been said: it is a fantastic document. It is also very modern. It is fascinating to read in one of its chapters about what to do with payday lenders. The FCA should take note: this has been around for a long time and I am not quite sure why it has taken so long. The sections relating to the City rail against those who might lobby unfairly for advantage: those who are discussing the lobbying Bill might reread that section too.
We have a number of proposals to come from the noble Lord who will respond to this debate and I do not want to delay the House unduly before that. However, I want to run over a couple of things that struck me during the debate. The noble Baronesses, Lady Prashar and Lady Lane-Fox, were right to pick up on the need to engage with the younger generation in a modern way. This has to be done through social media; there is no point in trying to look at old ways of doing this. We have to get real, get into social media and involve them. I hope that that will be picked up and taken forward.
The noble Lords, Lord Cormack and Lord Bew, were a bit unkind to us in raising our anticipation of what is to come. I hope they will be satisfied with what they hear. I like the idea of decamping to Runnymede but, as the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, said, we would need to do something about the accommodation or there will be an awful lot of tents required. The noble Lord, Lord Bew, reminded us that there are other anniversaries: we must also think about them and find a place for them to be recorded. If we do that then, going back to one of the themes of Magna Carta, which is its UK-ness, we might also have space for the Declaration of Arbroath which, in Scottish terms, is as important as Magna Carta.
We started with the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, and her immensely interesting proposal of bringing together all the Magna Cartas in Westminster Hall and using that as an opportunity for a debate of both Houses of Parliament. That is a terrific idea which would certainly help convince the Prime Minister of what Magna Carta and its translation mean, which must be good. For me, and others of my generation, it would answer the essential question we remember from “Hancock’s Half Hour”:
“Magna Carta … did she die in vain?”
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Sewel)
The answer, my Lords, is blowing in the wind. I start, as you would expect, by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, for giving us the opportunity to discuss this important issue. She started us off in the expected way: a strong, rumbustious speech which laid down a very clear challenge. I will try to answer at least part of that challenge.
This is the type of debate that your Lordships’ House does very well. It does it very well because it is trying to capture the importance of a particular historical event, to place it, and make an assessment of its contribution to the development of our political system over a number of centuries. Importantly, it does this in a way that illuminates and reinforces the values that underpin our current parliamentary liberal democracy. That is the whole basis for why we should celebrate Magna Carta. It did not deliver democracy by any means, but it was the start of a process that developed concepts that, in time, became absolutely essential in underpinning the nature of liberal parliamentary democracy.
Although 2015 may still seem a long way away, it is important that we make plans. I will say later that there are disadvantages and advantages in having this debate at this stage, which were alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Bew. We want to involve Members in the planning process, and a number of Members made contributions this evening that clearly deserve to be taken further, and I encourage the officials of the House to have contact with them about the extent to which their suggestions can be taken up and further developed.
The Magna Carta is undoubtedly one of the most important documents in the development of—I use the words carefully—our largely unwritten constitution. There is a historic and political science debate to be had about that, but we are not having it now. Although Magna Carta was forced upon King John as the result of a political crisis and drawn together in haste, it was underpinned by key principles that have shaped our legal and constitutional system. In particular—these have been alluded to and explained throughout the debate—are the principles that the Executive in particular must be subject to the rule of law and that there must be no taxation without consent. There were the beginnings of the key concept of holding the Executive to account. All these principles, as I say, were developed further and underpinned parliamentary democracy. As many Members of your Lordships’ House pointed out, Magna Carta has also played a significant role in the development of constitutions in many other countries around the world. The statues of the Magna Carta Barons, who keep an eye on us here in the Chamber, reflect the connections between Parliament and Magna Carta, and it is absolutely right that we, as this House—I repeat, this House—should celebrate its anniversary.
In the time I have left, I would like to set out some of the plans that both Houses have started to make. First, those plans need to be considered in the wider context of other anniversaries that the House will be marking in 2015. Secondly, it might be helpful for me to say a little more about how our plans fit in with other events being planned nationally. There has been reference to the other anniversaries that will be celebrated in 2015, because it will be a momentous year for Parliament for many reasons. Obviously, some lesser minds will no doubt be focused on the outcome of the general election in that year but there will be a number of special events happening during the year that look back at the important anniversaries that we are here to celebrate. This debate has already drawn attention to the fact that in 2015 we will mark 800 years since the sealing of Magna Carta. In addition, 2015 will also be 750 years since the de Montfort Parliament. Together, these two anniversaries can be seen as marking the beginning of a process towards our parliamentary democracy, and the de Montfort Parliament in particular has a unique resonance for us because it met in Westminster Hall. The year 2015 will also mark 600 years since the battle of Agincourt and the creation of the office of the Serjeant at Arms, 200 years since the battle of Waterloo and, as has been mentioned, 50 years since the death of Sir Winston Churchill. Parliament will therefore have a lot to celebrate and commemorate in 2015, and officials and Members—I repeat, and Members—have already begun to develop some ideas for possible ways in which this House, along with the House of Commons, may be able to mark these occasions..
In order to help guide this work, the Speakers of both Houses have appointed a number of Members to sit on a speakers’ advisory group for the 2015 anniversaries. I particularly welcome and thank the noble Lord, Lord Bew, as one of the co-chairs of that group. I understand that the group, as we heard this evening, is already bringing forward suggestions on how these events could be celebrated.
As a general outline for the year of 2015, there will be three phases of activity for Parliament. From January to March, celebrations will focus on the De Montfort Parliament. From June to September, celebrations will surround the Magna Carta. In November, Parliament will host its annual Parliament Week, which promotes all aspects of parliamentary work. There will also be a year-long “Journey to Democracy” narrative, which will enable a broader programme covering the De Montfort Parliament and Magna Carta’s medieval origins and the development of other concepts and rights, and leading all the way to the 20th century and the Human Rights Act. It will be a continuing narrative of a continuing tradition.
There is a problem about the timing of this debate, and I will absolutely honest about this, because 2015 is still quite far away; we are still in the early stages, so there is still a lot to be agreed. That is almost inevitable. The disadvantage of holding the debate today is that I am not in a position to confirm details of the programme in any specific way. However, the advantage is that it is still early enough for suggestions to be taken into account and for proposals to be considered further. Knowing the particular parliamentary skills of the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, I think she recognised the opportunity and chose this time for the debate. I am happy to respond to that.
I have a number of examples of how we will operate with partners from Surrey County Council and Runnymede, and how we will run a whole series of activities throughout schools in the whole United Kingdom to concentrate on engagement and make the connection between what we do now in the day-to-day life of politics and the enduring values that underpin that activity.
We are, of course, working with the British Library; we have our own parliamentary archives at work; the National Archives and the City of London will be involved and we will have a series of lectures setting it in an historic context, but in a contemporary context as well. In particular, we will go into schools.
I was particularly taken by the contribution made by the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, on how we have to use every means available to us to engage, especially with younger members of society. Many of us, I am afraid, still have not made that step towards engagement with a digital and more technological age. I would very much hope that she will allow us to tap her expertise in that area.
Let me return to the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd. I thank her not only for her speech, but for bringing forward this issue, particularly because she is a former Speaker of the House of Commons. That lends a particular authority to what she has said. I accept the force of her argument to have a single great parliamentary occasion that, if possible, brings together what are technically the engrossments—the surviving copies of Magna Carta—and thus in a sense bring them home to Parliament. That would provide an opportunity to demonstrate their centrality to the development of our political culture. I cannot give her an assurance that that will happen; I can only give an assurance that it will be fully and properly considered. I mean that as strongly as I can convey to the noble Baroness.
Several references were made to the statues in this Chamber. Every time that happened, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, gave me a quick dig in the ribs. If you look around, you can see the dust on the statues. We have looked at this and it would be a tragedy if, perhaps not in the immediate future but in the medium term, something was not done to improve the statues. The problem is that when the present Parliament building was built, the Victorians were still sending young boys up chimneys to sweep them, and I suspect that they had the same sort of solution in mind when they put the statues so high up. Since then, of course, we have had health and safety and God knows what else. However, the opportunity to do that will arise in a few years’ time when we come to look at the whole building and consider the possibility of renewal and restoration. We will have a chance to do the work in a fully comprehensive way.
Perhaps I may make a few comments about what has been said by individual speakers. I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, made an interesting observation about producing a board game. I am always keen to increase the revenue of the House, so it is something that we might wish to look at. The noble Lord, Lord Parekh, gave us an absolutely outstanding and correct theoretical analysis by placing Magna Carta in its wider perspective. The question that has been reflected by many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, in his excellent maiden speech, is “Why celebrate Magna Carta?”. The vital point to make is the linking of Magna Carta with our enduring liberties. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, blamed me for his lack of historical appreciation and then went on to make a very good critical argument. I am therefore quite happy that in some way I may have been responsible for that.
I have tried to deal with the points that were made in the debate without, I am afraid, dealing with every single contribution. I had 12 minutes in which to speak and I have already overrun by two minutes so I cannot deal with Cyrus the Great, and for that, I apologise.