Magna Carta

Lord Sewel Excerpts

Thursday 7th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Chairman of Committees (Lord Sewel)]

The answer, my Lords, is blowing in the wind. I start, as you would expect, by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, for giving us the opportunity to discuss this important issue. She started us off in the expected way: a strong, rumbustious speech which laid down a very clear challenge. I will try to answer at least part of that challenge.

This is the type of debate that your Lordships’ House does very well. It does it very well because it is trying to capture the importance of a particular historical event, to place it, and make an assessment of its contribution to the development of our political system over a number of centuries. Importantly, it does this in a way that illuminates and reinforces the values that underpin our current parliamentary liberal democracy. That is the whole basis for why we should celebrate Magna Carta. It did not deliver democracy by any means, but it was the start of a process that developed concepts that, in time, became absolutely essential in underpinning the nature of liberal parliamentary democracy.

Although 2015 may still seem a long way away, it is important that we make plans. I will say later that there are disadvantages and advantages in having this debate at this stage, which were alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Bew. We want to involve Members in the planning process, and a number of Members made contributions this evening that clearly deserve to be taken further, and I encourage the officials of the House to have contact with them about the extent to which their suggestions can be taken up and further developed.

The Magna Carta is undoubtedly one of the most important documents in the development of—I use the words carefully—our largely unwritten constitution. There is a historic and political science debate to be had about that, but we are not having it now. Although Magna Carta was forced upon King John as the result of a political crisis and drawn together in haste, it was underpinned by key principles that have shaped our legal and constitutional system. In particular—these have been alluded to and explained throughout the debate—are the principles that the Executive in particular must be subject to the rule of law and that there must be no taxation without consent. There were the beginnings of the key concept of holding the Executive to account. All these principles, as I say, were developed further and underpinned parliamentary democracy. As many Members of your Lordships’ House pointed out, Magna Carta has also played a significant role in the development of constitutions in many other countries around the world. The statues of the Magna Carta Barons, who keep an eye on us here in the Chamber, reflect the connections between Parliament and Magna Carta, and it is absolutely right that we, as this House—I repeat, this House—should celebrate its anniversary.

In the time I have left, I would like to set out some of the plans that both Houses have started to make. First, those plans need to be considered in the wider context of other anniversaries that the House will be marking in 2015. Secondly, it might be helpful for me to say a little more about how our plans fit in with other events being planned nationally. There has been reference to the other anniversaries that will be celebrated in 2015, because it will be a momentous year for Parliament for many reasons. Obviously, some lesser minds will no doubt be focused on the outcome of the general election in that year but there will be a number of special events happening during the year that look back at the important anniversaries that we are here to celebrate. This debate has already drawn attention to the fact that in 2015 we will mark 800 years since the sealing of Magna Carta. In addition, 2015 will also be 750 years since the de Montfort Parliament. Together, these two anniversaries can be seen as marking the beginning of a process towards our parliamentary democracy, and the de Montfort Parliament in particular has a unique resonance for us because it met in Westminster Hall. The year 2015 will also mark 600 years since the battle of Agincourt and the creation of the office of the Serjeant at Arms, 200 years since the battle of Waterloo and, as has been mentioned, 50 years since the death of Sir Winston Churchill. Parliament will therefore have a lot to celebrate and commemorate in 2015, and officials and Members—I repeat, and Members—have already begun to develop some ideas for possible ways in which this House, along with the House of Commons, may be able to mark these occasions..

In order to help guide this work, the Speakers of both Houses have appointed a number of Members to sit on a speakers’ advisory group for the 2015 anniversaries. I particularly welcome and thank the noble Lord, Lord Bew, as one of the co-chairs of that group. I understand that the group, as we heard this evening, is already bringing forward suggestions on how these events could be celebrated.

As a general outline for the year of 2015, there will be three phases of activity for Parliament. From January to March, celebrations will focus on the De Montfort Parliament. From June to September, celebrations will surround the Magna Carta. In November, Parliament will host its annual Parliament Week, which promotes all aspects of parliamentary work. There will also be a year-long “Journey to Democracy” narrative, which will enable a broader programme covering the De Montfort Parliament and Magna Carta’s medieval origins and the development of other concepts and rights, and leading all the way to the 20th century and the Human Rights Act. It will be a continuing narrative of a continuing tradition.

There is a problem about the timing of this debate, and I will absolutely honest about this, because 2015 is still quite far away; we are still in the early stages, so there is still a lot to be agreed. That is almost inevitable. The disadvantage of holding the debate today is that I am not in a position to confirm details of the programme in any specific way. However, the advantage is that it is still early enough for suggestions to be taken into account and for proposals to be considered further. Knowing the particular parliamentary skills of the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, I think she recognised the opportunity and chose this time for the debate. I am happy to respond to that.

I have a number of examples of how we will operate with partners from Surrey County Council and Runnymede, and how we will run a whole series of activities throughout schools in the whole United Kingdom to concentrate on engagement and make the connection between what we do now in the day-to-day life of politics and the enduring values that underpin that activity.

We are, of course, working with the British Library; we have our own parliamentary archives at work; the National Archives and the City of London will be involved and we will have a series of lectures setting it in an historic context, but in a contemporary context as well. In particular, we will go into schools.

I was particularly taken by the contribution made by the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, on how we have to use every means available to us to engage, especially with younger members of society. Many of us, I am afraid, still have not made that step towards engagement with a digital and more technological age. I would very much hope that she will allow us to tap her expertise in that area.

Let me return to the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd. I thank her not only for her speech, but for bringing forward this issue, particularly because she is a former Speaker of the House of Commons. That lends a particular authority to what she has said. I accept the force of her argument to have a single great parliamentary occasion that, if possible, brings together what are technically the engrossments—the surviving copies of Magna Carta—and thus in a sense bring them home to Parliament. That would provide an opportunity to demonstrate their centrality to the development of our political culture. I cannot give her an assurance that that will happen; I can only give an assurance that it will be fully and properly considered. I mean that as strongly as I can convey to the noble Baroness.

Several references were made to the statues in this Chamber. Every time that happened, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, gave me a quick dig in the ribs. If you look around, you can see the dust on the statues. We have looked at this and it would be a tragedy if, perhaps not in the immediate future but in the medium term, something was not done to improve the statues. The problem is that when the present Parliament building was built, the Victorians were still sending young boys up chimneys to sweep them, and I suspect that they had the same sort of solution in mind when they put the statues so high up. Since then, of course, we have had health and safety and God knows what else. However, the opportunity to do that will arise in a few years’ time when we come to look at the whole building and consider the possibility of renewal and restoration. We will have a chance to do the work in a fully comprehensive way.

Perhaps I may make a few comments about what has been said by individual speakers. I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, made an interesting observation about producing a board game. I am always keen to increase the revenue of the House, so it is something that we might wish to look at. The noble Lord, Lord Parekh, gave us an absolutely outstanding and correct theoretical analysis by placing Magna Carta in its wider perspective. The question that has been reflected by many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, in his excellent maiden speech, is “Why celebrate Magna Carta?”. The vital point to make is the linking of Magna Carta with our enduring liberties. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, blamed me for his lack of historical appreciation and then went on to make a very good critical argument. I am therefore quite happy that in some way I may have been responsible for that.

I have tried to deal with the points that were made in the debate without, I am afraid, dealing with every single contribution. I had 12 minutes in which to speak and I have already overrun by two minutes so I cannot deal with Cyrus the Great, and for that, I apologise.