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Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)
1. What recent assessment she has made of co-operation between the UK and Irish Governments.
Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab)
4. What recent assessment she has made of co-operation between the UK and Irish Governments.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach said in their joint statement, the relationship between the UK and the Republic of Ireland has never been stronger or more settled. We particularly value the co-operation that we have received from the Irish Government and the Garda on security matters.
Mr Brown
The Secretary of State will know that the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister recently announced that all-party talks would take place, under an independent chair, on a range of outstanding issues, including parading, flags, and dealing with the past. These are due to commence soon and to finish by the end of the year. Does she agree that both Governments have a vital role to play in these talks and in helping all the parties to find agreement on these vital issues?
Mrs Villiers
I can assure the hon. Gentleman that both Governments have warmly welcomed the announcement of that group; it is very timely that the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister have proposed it. I am delighted to tell the House that an independent chair has been confirmed—the eminent Richard Haass from the United States will take on that role. As we will see in forthcoming days, this demonstrates once again the importance of looking at long-term devolved solutions on matters such as flags and parading.
Lisa Nandy
The inability of the National Crime Agency to operate in Northern Ireland is a serious impediment to the fight against organised crime, trafficking, paedophile rings and terrorism on both sides of the border. What discussions has the Secretary of State had with the Irish Justice Minister and the Northern Ireland parties to sort this out?
Mrs Villiers
I have had a number of discussions of that sort, and I can provide some reassurance. The NCA will be able to operate in Northern Ireland in relation to matters that are not devolved, including border controls, human trafficking issues, and matters to do with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, so it will have a role there. It can also provide advice and support to the Police Service of Northern Ireland in relation to devolved matters. Although it will not be operational on the ground, it can still provide a resource to assist the PSNI. I will continue to work with the Northern Ireland parties to see whether we can make the NCA’s role in Northern Ireland the same as it is elsewhere in the UK.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Given that we recently lent the Republic of Ireland billions of pounds to help it through its financial difficulties, to what extent are the Irish Government helping us to renegotiate our terms of membership with the European Union?
Mrs Villiers
The UK and the Republic of Ireland do have many useful occasions to co-operate on European matters. The Republic of Ireland certainly has a different view from the UK Government on further integration, but on commercial matters—single market matters—we work well together.
Mr Speaker
May I gently say to the Secretary of State that cheeky ingenuity should be met by exemplary brevity? That is what she has provided, and we are grateful to her.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
Given all her discussions with the various parties that she has to speak to, the Secretary of State will be aware of the perverse decision made last night by the Parades Commission, which has rewarded bad behaviour and punished good behaviour in relation to parading. What is she going to do about it?
Mrs Villiers
I am working closely with the Chief Constable and the Justice Minister in their preparations to do everything they can to secure a peaceful 12 July. I believe it is important for everyone in this House and the Northern Ireland political parties to call on all concerned to work for a peaceful 12 July. It would be hugely damaging to Northern Ireland if the good news from the G8 were blighted by scenes of rioting on the streets of north Belfast.
Mr Dodds
We want to see that peaceful situation continue. We do not want to see any trouble on our streets. Does the Secretary of State accept that the Parades Commission has made the situation immensely worse and created severe tensions? Last year republicans brought out machine guns and attacked and shot at police, while Unionists and loyalists behaved impeccably. Republicans have been rewarded; Unionists have been punished. How on earth does the Secretary of State expect people to react in such a situation? Is it not time for the Parades Commission to be replaced by something more sensible?
Mrs Villiers
I know that the right hon. Gentleman has strong views on these matters, and the fact that these events relate directly to his constituency give him an important say on them. I recognise the anger in parts of the loyalist community about this decision, but it is vital that people recognise that the Parades Commission is the lawfully constituted authority. Respect for the rule of law is crucial. It would be immensely damaging to Northern Ireland if we had a violent 12 July. Whatever people think of the Parades Commission’s determination, I hope they will listen to the statement made yesterday by all five party leaders on the importance of the rule of law and a peaceful 12 July and comply with the commission’s determination.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
15. Now that the Home Secretary has decided that she is in favour of the European arrest warrant, will the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland arrange an early discussion with the Home Secretary’s Irish counterpart on how to make the warrant process less bureaucratic and a more effective weapon in the fight against organised crime north and south of the border?
Mrs Villiers
I have had a number of useful discussions with Alan Shatter about this matter and how the Republic of Ireland views it. Discussions are taking place between Home Office Ministers and the Irish Justice Minister. I am sure they will continue as part of the Home Secretary’s efforts to ensure we reform and improve the way in which the arrest warrant works.
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
12. On economic co-operation, the British-Irish Council helps increase trade and boost growth between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. What more can the Secretary of State do to boost the maximum level of economic co-operation between nations right across these islands?
Mrs Villiers
The recent meeting of the British-Irish Council produced some very useful conclusions on matters such as energy and the creative industries, and the Prime Minister used the G8 to strengthen relations between the UK and the Republic of Ireland. He very much welcomed the Taoiseach’s input to the G8 discussions. We are determined to continue to maximise the benefits that come from the G8 in terms of economic activity in Northern Ireland and future friendly relations with the Republic of Ireland.
Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)
2. What her policy is on the Northern Ireland economy; and if she will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
The Government wish to rebalance the economy to help Northern Ireland compete in the global race for jobs and investment. This is the aim of the economic package agreed between the Government and the Executive. The successful G8 has also demonstrated to the world that Northern Ireland is very much open for business.
Heidi Alexander
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that reply. She will be aware that at the beginning of this month the Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association warmly welcomed the initiative being spearheaded by the shadow Business Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna), to make 7 December “small business Saturday”. Will she put on record her support for that proposal and outline the concrete steps she will take to ensure that it is a success?
Mrs Villiers
Small business Saturday was raised with me by Glyn Roberts of NIIRTA when I met small businesses just a few days ago. The Government are determined to rebalance the economy to create the right conditions for growth in Northern Ireland. That was the aim of the extensive economic package that we agreed with the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, which was broadly welcomed by people such as the Taoiseach, the US President and even the shadow Secretary of State. That provides a good platform to help small businesses.
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
One of the obstacles to the growth of the economy in Northern Ireland has been the lack of funding from banks to help small and medium-sized enterprises. What discussions has the Secretary of State had with the banks so that funding can be made available to these companies?
Mrs Villiers
I have had extensive discussions with the banks, Treasury Ministers and the Finance Minister of the Northern Ireland Executive. That informs an important part of the work stream that we will take forward as part of the economic package.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
The Secretary of State will agree that, because of the shape of the Northern Ireland economy, public contracts represent a significant part of the market opportunity for our private sector. Does she therefore agree that any implications of sleaze or partisan hands being greased in relation to public contracts or any other governmental decisions that could favour the private sector should be investigated to the full?
Mrs Villiers
These are devolved matters. It is, of course, for the Assembly to investigate any allegations made along those lines. It is not for me as Secretary of State to intervene in those allegations. I am sure the Assembly and Executive will deal with them in an appropriate manner.
Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
3. What recent discussions she has had with Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive on inward investment.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mike Penning)
The Secretary of State and I have frequent meetings with Executive Ministers about further inward investment in Northern Ireland. That was a key focus of the economic pact that was concluded and agreed on 14 June. Our efforts are now focused on the G8 investment conference in October, which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will attend.
Andrea Leadsom
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his reply. Will he join me in welcoming the announcement of a business-led taskforce to look at how EU rules are holding back businesses? Does he agree that that initiative will be vital for Northern Ireland’s economic development as much as for the rest of the UK?
Mike Penning
I welcome the taskforce and the Northern Ireland Executive’s promotion of the 5,900 jobs that they would like to see with an investment of £375 million through foreign direct investment. That is something we support.
Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)
Further to the question from the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), inward investors will look at governance as part of due diligence before investing in any region. Given the serious allegations about political interference in public housing contracts, does the Secretary of State agree that it is within her remit to call for a full independent inquiry under the terms of the Inquiries Act 2005, in consultation with the Executive?
Mike Penning
Northern Ireland has an excellent police force and their investigations will look into any accusations that are made. We look forward to hearing from the police.
Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)
On a recent visit to the United States, members of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee were told that bad publicity from certain paramilitary organisations in Northern Ireland would be a deterrent to inward investment. There is, however, a lot of good news in the Province, so what will the Minister do to promote that over and above the very rare occurrences of bad news?
Mike Penning
The good news, and particularly the G8, showed the whole world the good things that are going on in Northern Ireland, and how its normalisation process has moved forward enormously. All that good news and good publicity will go if there is anything like what we saw on the streets in terms of rioting and paramilitary activity, which we should all condemn.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
I hope that Members on these Benches will welcome the cross-community efforts made by the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon)—an orange suit on Monday and a green suit today.
May I ask the Secretary of State how the Government intend to capitalise on opportunities for inward investment that originate from the G8 conference in Northern Ireland, and the good news that has flowed from that?
Mike Penning
The October investment conference that the Prime Minister will attend is the next step forward in showing normalisation and that Northern Ireland is a good place to invest. Before that, the world police and fire games—the second largest sporting event in the world—will be held in Northern Ireland, and 7,000 competitors and thousands of supporters will be in Northern Ireland to see how well it is doing.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
5. What assessment she has made of the potential effect of the devolution of corporation tax.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
We recognise the potential benefits of devolving corporation tax in Northern Ireland. We are continuing to consider the technical and financial implications of such a change, and will make a decision no later than the 2014 autumn statement on whether to devolve rate-setting powers.
Ian Murray
There remains significant concern in Northern Ireland about the reduction in the block grant should the rate of corporation tax be equalised with the south. What discussions has the Secretary of State had with the Chancellor and the Northern Ireland Finance Minister about the consequences for the block grant, and by how much would it reduce if corporation tax were equalised with the south?
Mrs Villiers
I have had extensive discussions on that matter on a number of occasions with the Northern Ireland Finance Minister and Treasury Ministers, including the Chancellor, and that issue is one reason why we must consider carefully before deciding whether to go ahead with the change. We must ensure that the numbers are correct and that we have thought through all the consequences before a decision is made on whether the devolution should take place.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
In answer to an earlier question the Secretary of State mentioned her determination to rebalance the Northern Ireland economy. Given that any decision on corporation tax is at least 17 months away, what other weapons will she help to provide in the armoury of the Northern Ireland Executive to help inward investment in our private sector?
Mrs Villiers
We have already started on that work by bringing the G8 to Northern Ireland to demonstrate what a fabulous place it is to do business. We have also agreed an extensive economic package with the First and Deputy First Ministers, with extra funding for PEACE IV, extra structural funds and the retention of 100% assisted area status, which has enabled the Northern Ireland Executive to create 3,000 new jobs in the past three months alone.
Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab)
6. What her policy is on a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland; and if she will make a statement.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mike Penning)
The Government would like to see the issue resolved on the basis of consensus among the parties in Northern Ireland, and we remain open to taking whatever action might be required should there be such a consensus.
Mr Anderson
The Minister is aware, as is everybody in the House, that a Bill of Rights was an integral part of the 1998 Belfast agreement. We have waited 15 years for it. How much longer must we wait while people cannot make their minds up? Surely the Government have a responsibility to ensure that this moves forward and should not just pass the buck on to people in Northern Ireland.
Mike Penning
I do not think anybody in Northern Ireland or in the House would say that the matter has not had an awful lot of attention in the past 15 years. The previous Government were unable to find a solution. I understand the problems that they had, and people have to understand the problems that we have. We need a consensus, and then we can move on. Until we get consensus, we cannot do that.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
At a time when newts and bats can stop a multi-million-pound planning application, will the Minister explain to me and the House how pursuing a Bill of Rights that does not address the basic right of an unborn child can possibly be value for money, and why it should be high on anybody’s priority list?
Mike Penning
I respect the hon. Gentleman’s views, but he has just explained exactly why the Bill of Rights has taken 15 years and there is a lot of work still to come on it.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
14. Given that an Ipsos MORI poll showed that 80% of the supporters of the main political parties in Northern Ireland were in favour of the introduction of the Bill of Rights, will the Minister outline how the Government will use that level of consensus to bring forward a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland to reflect all the protections that are needed and the need for the full implementation of the Good Friday agreement?
Mike Penning
Eighty per cent. is not a consensus, and it leaves 20% of the population of Northern Ireland that are not yet in agreement. If they can get together and form an agreement, we can move on.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
The Minister will be well aware that under the terms of the Belfast agreement, any future Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland is supposed to deal with issues particular to Northern Ireland. Since parading is particular to Northern Ireland, what steps are the Northern Ireland Office, the Secretary of State and the Minister taking to ensure that the right to parade is guaranteed in any future Bill of Rights?
Mike Penning
The Secretary of State and I have had a lot of discussions on the matter, but the Parades Commission is an independent body and we have to accept its legal decisions. We may not all agree with a decision, but it must be adhered to.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
7. What her policy is on parading; and if she will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
It is vital that the determinations of the Parades Commission are obeyed and that the rule of law is respected. We encourage all concerned to work to ensure that parades pass off peacefully and that different traditions can be celebrated in an atmosphere of mutual respect and understanding.
Julie Hilling
The Parades Commission has an unenviable task, and although I commend the work of the commissioners and acknowledge the difficulty of the job that they have to do, it is clear that there are issues to consider about confidence in their deliberations and decisions. Does the Secretary of State acknowledge that, and does she agree that we need to address the matter in the weeks and months to come?
Mrs Villiers
I certainly agree that the Parades Commission’s decisions can spark controversy but, in a sense, that is inevitable given the nature of its role. I welcome the initiative to consider a reform of parading matters, which we spoke about earlier, which provides an opportunity for all of us in the House to call on all concerned to work constructively and peacefully together so that parades can pass off peacefully in an atmosphere of mutual respect.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
For many, like myself, the Parades Commission in Northern Ireland has a reputation of driving the communities further apart and being deliberately provocative in its determination to humiliate the Orange tradition in Northern Ireland while rewarding violent republicanism. What is the cost of that unelected, unaccountable quango that the Secretary of State keeps in place, and is it not long overdue that it is abolished?
Mrs Villiers
The cost of the Parades Commission is set out in the Northern Ireland Office annual accounts. I know there are concerns about the Parades Commission’s decisions and I know that they are controversial, but it is absolutely crucial that the rule of law is respected. All of Northern Ireland will suffer if the pictures that go around the world this weekend are of violent scenes. There is a way to ensure that these events pass off peacefully. I urge everyone to seek that.
Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)
Has the Secretary of State consulted Lord Ashdown, whose commission included both a senior republican and a senior member of the Orange Order, and was able to come to a consensus? Will she also talk to Roger Poole, whose chairmanship of the Parades Commission was very successful? There might be lessons there.
Mrs Villiers
I am happy to talk both of those individuals. That would be very useful.
Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP)
May I endorse the view expressed by the Secretary of State that the decisions of the Parades Commission have to be supported? Does she and the Northern Ireland Office have any plans to work at or develop better dialogue, so that contentious parading can be avoided in the future?
Mrs Villiers
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his support. It is vital that Parades Commission determinations are obeyed. He is also correct to say that local dialogue is the way forward. I welcome the fact that that took place for a few days last week. I hope that both sides will continue that dialogue, with a view to a local and sustainable resolution to parading next year.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
More than 550 parades are taking place in Northern Ireland over the 12th, the vast majority of which will pass without incident. I wish those taking part an enjoyable and peaceful day. There are, however, a number of very contentious parades. Will the Secretary of State update the House on arrangements to ensure that the Police Service of Northern Ireland is able to deal with any public order issues that arise? Of course we hope that none does, but we must always be prepared.
Mrs Villiers
I spoke this morning to the Chief Constable for exactly such an update. The shadow Secretary of State will be aware that that includes approximately 600 mutual aid officers from Great Britain, drawing on the experience of the G8. Those officers have started to arrive. The PSNI is doing all it can to ensure that we have a peaceful 12 July. I hope it will receive the support of the whole community in seeking to achieve that.
Vernon Coaker
I thank the Secretary of State for her response. She will know, as I do, that there is particular concern regarding the Ardoyne. I have spoken with representatives of the Orange Order and the residents’ association, and continue to encourage them to re-enter talks to try to find a way forward. The Parades Commission has given its determination and the law must be respected. Does the Secretary of State agree that even at this late stage we must not give up on dialogue, we must not give up on talks and we must not give up on trying to find a peaceful way forward?
Mrs Villiers
I am in complete agreement with the shadow Secretary of State. Dialogue is always helpful, no matter how late in the day. It is particularly important in finding a sustainable way forward for next year’s parade.
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
8. What recent discussions she has had with Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive on rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
I had extensive discussions with Executive Ministers prior to the publication of our economic package, “Building a Prosperous and United Community”. I look forward to working with the Executive on implementing this important programme of work.
Andrew Stephenson
I thank the Secretary of State for her answer. What plans does my right hon. Friend have to ensure that the highly successful G8 summit in Lough Erne leaves a lasting economic legacy for Northern Ireland?
Mrs Villiers
The G8 was tremendously successful. We have had some rather grim matters to discuss this morning in the House, but we should not forget that the world saw a positive picture of a scenically beautiful Northern Ireland that is open for business. The next opportunity to capitalise on it is an investment conference in October, which the Prime Minister will attend.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
I recently met the head of Tourism Ireland, who told me about the great success of the new Titanic museum in Belfast. Does the Secretary of State agree that this shows that marketing Ireland as a whole can help to rebalance and benefit the Northern Ireland economy?
Mrs Villiers
There are some advantages to that. We are looking at ways to encourage visitors to the Republic of Ireland to extend their stay to visit Northern Ireland. That is why our economic package contains proposals for a visa waiver pilot to enable those from certain countries with an Irish visa to travel to the UK.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
Further to that last, excellent question, I am sure the House would agree that it would be mean spirited and churlish to do anything other than welcome the announcement of the economic package, notwithstanding that it was a re-stating of much that was announced by the previous Government, but may we have a little more detail about what has been agreed with the Northern Ireland Executive, and, above all, may we have some knowledge of the time frame for implementation?
Mrs Villiers
We are pressing ahead as soon as possible with our start-up loan system, which we hope will be in operation within weeks; we have already agreed—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman asked a serious question, and the Secretary of State is trying to answer, but there is far too much noise in the Chamber. Let us hear the right hon. Lady.
Mrs Villiers
The package includes top-ups for the Peace IV programme and structural funds; the retention of 100% assisted area status; a major G8 conference in October; measures to boost lending to business; a £20 million investment plan for research and development; agreement on the potential mechanism for taking forward further work on corporation tax devolution; a commitment to a new way forward on enterprise zones; a potential visa waiver pilot; and a number of other measures.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
Q1. If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 10 July.
The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
Before listing my engagements, I am sure the whole House, and indeed the whole country, will wish to join me in congratulating Andy Murray on his historic Wimbledon success. To become the first British player to win Wimbledon for 77 years is a fantastic achievement and will rightly go down in our history books.
This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, and in addition to my duties in the House, I shall have further such meetings later today.
Mr Speaker
Order. This is exceptionally discourteous. We have Question 1. The hon. Gentleman will ask the question; and that question, and the answer to it, will be heard.
The Prime Minister
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. I think there will be widespread support around the country for modernising this great public service, for getting new capital into the service and for ensuring that 10% of the shares go to the people who work for Royal Mail. Remarkably, it was proposed by the Labour party when it was in government, but of course, because the trade unions now oppose it, Labour has to oppose it too—fresh evidence today that it is still in the pockets of its trade union paymasters.
Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)
Let me first join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Andy Murray for his fantastic victory—following Virginia Wade’s victory in 1977. It was a fantastic achievement; he showed extraordinary determination, and the whole country is incredibly proud of him.
As the Government consider party funding reform, will the Prime Minister tell the House how much his party has received in donations from hedge funds?
Mr Speaker
Order. The Prime Minister, I know, will want to answer the question put to him, and we must hear him do so.
The Prime Minister
I am not surprised that the right hon. Gentleman has this sudden interest in party funding. Let us be frank: every donation to the Conservative party is fully set out and public. Let us be clear what this real scandal is about; it is about trade union fixing of political appointments to this House, so when he gets to his feet, let us hope he addresses the 40 seats that Unite has fiddled, and let us also hope he publishes the Falkirk report and tells us—[Hon. Members: “Answer the question!”] Labour Members do not want to hear—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I am always concerned about the rights of Back-Bench Members, and they will be heard; and if we run over for the purpose, because of this sort of conduct, so be it. They will be heard. Please, let us have a bit of order and some answers.
The Prime Minister
The problem is, they’re paid to shout and they’re doing nothing about it.
Edward Miliband
I do not think the Prime Minister wanted to answer the question, did he? So let us give him the answer: the Conservative party has received £25 million from hedge funds. Now, next question. In the Budget, the Chancellor gave hedge funds a £145 million tax cut. Can the Prime Minister tell us: was it just a coincidence?
The Prime Minister
The top tax rate under this Government is going to be higher than it ever was under the right hon. Gentleman’s Government, but let me tell him this important point. There is a big difference between donations to the Conservative party and donations to the Labour party, and the difference is this: donations to the Labour party buy votes at your conference, buy candidates and MPs in this House, and pay for the votes that gave him his job. They paid their money, they bought their votes, they put him in his place, and that has not changed a thing.
Edward Miliband
I will tell him what the difference is: 6p a week in affiliation fees from ordinary people up and down this country, against a party funded by a few millionaires at the top. And what is—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. Mr Ellis, you find it so difficult to control yourself. I am sure you did not when you were practising at the Bar. Calm it, man! Get a grip of the situation!
Edward Miliband
What is shameful about it is that the Prime Minister does not even know about the extra tax cut he gave to hedge funds. He says he wants reform, so I have a proposal for him. I am willing, as I have said before, to have a £5,000 limit on donations from trade unions, businesses and individuals, as part of a fundamental reform in the way our parties are funded. Is he willing to do that?
The Prime Minister
First of all, let me deal with—[Hon. Members: “Answer!”] I will answer. Let me deal with 6p a week—[Interruption.]
The Prime Minister
Let me deal with 6p a week. Here are the figures since the right hon. Gentleman became leader: £8 million from Unite, £4 million from GMB and £4 million from Unison. They have bought the policies, they have bought the candidates and they bought the leader.
I have long supported caps on donations. I think we should have caps on donations, and they should apply to trade unions, to businesses and to individuals, but let me say this. There is a—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. There is still too far much shouting, on both sides of the Chamber. The Prime Minister I think is concluding his answer.
The Prime Minister
Let me be frank with the right hon. Gentleman. There is a problem with a £5,000 cap, and it is this. It would imply a massive amount of taxpayer support for political parties; and frankly, Mr Speaker, I do not see why the result of a trade union scandal should be every taxpayer in the country paying for Labour.
Edward Miliband
So there we have the truth: the Prime Minister is ducking funding reform. He does not want it to happen. Let us test his willingness to reform in this House. Current rules allow MPs to take on paid directorships and consultancies, as long as they are declared in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, and Members on both sides of the House abide by those rules. I say: in the next Parliament—this will affect both sides of this House—MPs should not be able to take on new paid directorships and consultancies. Does he agree?
The Prime Minister
I think that what matters is that everything is transparent and open. Those are the rules we agreed. The right hon. Gentleman made me an offer—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I said a moment ago that the Leader of the Opposition must be heard, and he must be. The Prime Minister must also be heard.
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman made me an offer. Let me make him an offer. If he wants change, there is a Bill coming to the House of Commons next week that will cover trade unions. If he wants to legislate to move from opting out to opting in, if he wants to give union members a chance to choose whether to donate and to vote on whether they should give to Labour, we will legislate. Will he accept that offer of legislation? Yes or no?
Edward Miliband
I have to say that the right hon. Gentleman will have to do a lot better than that. He must answer the question on second jobs—[Interruption.] Let me tell him and all the Members opposite that between now and the general election, they will be subject to this test: do they support second jobs, new directorships and consultancies—yes or no? That is the test. Let us try the right hon. Gentleman with another test. I say—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. The question must be heard, and the people whom I might have thought about calling to ask a question who are shouting from a sedentary position might just as well leave the Chamber.
Edward Miliband
As well as ending new directorships and consultancies, there should be a limit in the next Parliament on how much people can earn on top of their MP’s salary, as happens in other countries. The public would expect nothing less. What does the Prime Minister say?
The Prime Minister
What is interesting is that the right hon. Gentleman does not want to talk about the trade unions stitching up parliamentary selections. He does not want to address that, but that is what this scandal is about. Let us ask what has actually changed since yesterday. Will the unions still have the biggest vote at the conference? Yes. Will they still be able to determine the party’s policy? Yes. Will they still have the decisive vote in choosing the Labour leader? Yes. Those are the facts: they own you lock, stock and block vote.
Edward Miliband
This is a man owned by a few millionaires at the top of society, and everyone knows it. Here is the difference between him and me: I want action on second jobs; he does not. I want party funding reform; he does not. I am proud that we have links with ordinary working people; he is bankrolled by a few millionaires. The party of the people. The party of privilege.
The Prime Minister
It is not the party of the people; it is the party of Len McCluskey. That is the fact—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. We cannot just have a wall of noise. We need questions and answers.
The Prime Minister
It is not the party of the people; it is the party of Len McCluskey. They buy the candidates, they buy the policies and they buy the leader. What is Labour’s policy on Royal Mail? It is determined by the Communication Workers Union. What is its policy on health? It is determined by Unison. What is its policy on party funding? It is determined by Unite. It is no wonder that that the right hon. Gentleman thinks like Buddha: he wants to be reincarnated and come back as a proper leader.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
Q2. Three quarters of a million British people suffer from heart failure, a condition—[Interruption.]
Dr Huppert
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
Three quarters of a million British people suffer from heart failure, a condition that uses 1 million hospital beds every year. Recent research funded by the British Heart Foundation has found that even low levels of air pollution can significantly increase the risk. Will the Prime Minister commit to meeting European standards on air quality? If implemented, such a commitment could increase life expectancy by up to eight months.
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an important point about air quality. We have seen real improvements in recent years, and that makes a genuine difference to public health. Important discussions are ongoing in the European Union at the moment, particularly about car emissions, and I will perhaps write to him about our conclusions on those issues.
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)
Q3. The Government have diverted EU regeneration funds intended for South Yorkshire to benefit wealthier parts of the UK. The chair of Sheffield City Region local enterprise partnership has said that the arguments of local business have been ignored, and that the decision will have a hugely negative impact on jobs and growth. Why has the Prime Minister ignored local business leaders, and how can he justify allocating 34% more per head to Cheshire than to South Yorkshire? Do not this Government always have the wrong priorities and stand up for the wrong people?
The Prime Minister
We have done a very fair assessment not only between the regions of the United Kingdom, but between the nations of the United Kingdom about how to distribute this money. We have distributed it in a fair way. If we look at Yorkshire and the Humber, we see employment up by 11,000 this quarter and 86,000 since the election, but as the hon. Gentleman is a member of Unite, it is not surprising that he does not mention that fact.
Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
Q4. Does the Prime Minister welcome last Friday’s vote to give the British people a say on their relationship with Europe—a vote with a stark contrast, in that those in the Labour party chose to stay away and squabble with themselves over fixing within the unions?
The Prime Minister
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) on how he presented his Bill on a referendum in the European Union. There was unanimous support on this side of the House from the Conservative party. What was noticeable is that although there was a 19-page briefing from the Labour party—like every other bit of paper nowadays, we find it lying around the House of Commons—Labour Members could not make up their mind which way to vote.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
Does the Prime Minister agree with a former Conservative treasurer that the money received from Asil Nadir is tainted and that the Conservatives have a moral duty to give it back? When will he return that money?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman should start with the fact that his party has taken £1.6 million—not a £5,000 cap—from Mr Mills and advised him how to dodge the tax.
Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)
Q5. Under the last Government, communities such as Thanet were left and abandoned on benefits. Was my right hon. Friend impressed by the thousands of jobs created in Sandwich, London Array and our jobs fair? This Government are putting people back into work.
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I was impressed on visiting Thanet to see the jobs being created by the London Array. It is providing jobs in shipping for seamen, jobs in engineering, apprenticeships; it is a really important investment for this country, and we hope to see many more like it in the future.
Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab)
Q6. Is the Prime Minister aware that there is widespread agreement in this House about the importance of investment in infrastructure and indeed widespread agreements about its job-creating potential? Can he therefore tell us why, after three years in office, employment in the construction sector has fallen by 84,000 people?
The Prime Minister
Employment in construction is currently rising, and the recent news on construction has been very good. That is because we have an infrastructure plan, a fifth of the projects are under way and we have road building at far higher levels than it ever was under the Labour Government. Whereas Labour electrified literally five miles of railway line, we are going to electrify hundreds of miles of railway line. I note that the hon. Gentleman does not mention the fact that he has been paying rent to Unite in his constituency. Normally, it is money from Unite to Labour; in this case, it is from—
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
Is my right hon. Friend aware that after yesterday’s surrender of powers by the Home Office to the European Union by bringing the European Court of Justice into the arrest warrant, the Commission has welcomed it as pragmatic? Has pragmatism overtaken the Prime Minister’s popular desire to repatriate powers?
The Prime Minister
The Home Secretary’s announcement yesterday represents the repatriation to the UK of 98 powers. There were 133 items on the justice and home affairs list, which is a massive transfer of power back here to the UK. I think my hon. Friend should welcome that.
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)
Q7. A carer and her husband who has Parkinson’s disease were moved to a two-bedroomed property because she found it impossible to sleep when they were sharing a room. The cumulative effect of this Government’s welfare changes means that she is going to have to find an additional £1,000 a year. Carers UK has published evidence showing that the discretionary payment scheme is benefiting only one in 10 people. That is the scheme that Government Ministers frequently pray in aid. Was it the Prime Minister’s intention that nine out of 10 carers should face eviction, debt arrears and bailiffs?
The Prime Minister
Let me make it clear that disability living allowance, the main benefit received by disabled people, is being uprated by inflation and excluded from the welfare cap. When it comes to the spare room subsidy, anyone who needs to have a carer sleeping in another bedroom is exempt from it. There is also the discretionary payment. [Interruption.] Labour Members shake their heads, but the fact is that they have opposed each and every one of our welfare savings, and it is now Labour’s policy to adopt our spending plans. They cannot go on accepting the plans but criticising them at the same time.
Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)
It is one year since the Government suspended aid money that goes directly to the Kagame regime in Rwanda over the role that the regime played in supporting warlords and militia gangs in the Congo. Recently, the UN confirmed that Rwandan army officers are still involved in such activities. Does my right hon. Friend agree with me that those actions are unacceptable for a Commonwealth nation? Will he work with his international counterparts to ensure that those committing war crimes are brought to justice?
The Prime Minister
Those committing war crimes should always be brought to justice. I have raised the issue of support for the M23 with President Kagame on a number of occasions. We need to bear that in mind in looking at our aid programme, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development has done.
I think we should also recognise—this goes across parties in this House—that British investment in aid in Rwanda has created one of the great success stories of African development over the last decade. We should continue to invest in that success and lift people out of poverty while delivering a very clear message to President Kagame at the same time.
Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab)
Q8. Prime Minister, how many jobs should an MP have?
The Prime Minister
All Members of Parliament have the clearest possible duty to their constituents. Let me make this point. Do I think the House of Commons benefits from people like the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) and his experience? Do I think the House of Commons benefits from the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), who comes to this House with his experience? I think we do benefit. I am not sure that we benefit from my immediate predecessor, but there are Opposition Members who give good service to this House.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
We are all celebrating Andy Murray’s historic victory this week. The Prime Minister may not know that history was also made in 1954, when Dave Valentine, a Scotsman, was the first man to lift the rugby league world cup trophy for Great Britain. The 14th rugby league world cup is happening this year—the first major sporting tournament on these shores since last year’s wonderful London 2012 Olympics and Paralympics. Will the Prime Minister give it full support and will he come to one of the games?
The Prime Minister
I was not aware of that important piece of history and I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing me up to date. I strongly support the fact that we are holding this tournament and will give it all the support I can. Obviously, between now and then we have the small issue of the Ashes, and it is important that we hold that as well.
Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)
Q9. When the Prime Minister entertained the hedge fund owners of Circle health, the private hospital company, to a dinner for donors in Downing street, what did he promise in return for their £863,000 donation to the Tory party?
The Prime Minister
Let me just give the hon. Gentleman the figures: £8 million from Unite; £4 million from GMB; and £4 million from Unison. The difference is this. Those donations—they buy your leader, they buy your policy, they buy—[Interruption.]
Jonathan Lord
Q10. Does the Prime Minister agree with me that it is welcome that 2,500 out-of-work households in London can no longer claim more than the average working family earns—a welfare reform opposed by the Labour party at the behest of its union barons?
The Prime Minister
The Labour party has opposed every single welfare change that we have made—£86 billion in total. People in this country, including trade union members, will find it inexplicable that the Labour party thinks you are better off on benefits than you are in work. That shows that not only does it have the wrong relationship with the unions—it has the wrong values, too.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
Can the Prime Minister tell—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. Basic manners would suggest that the question be heard. Just as I said about Mr Lord, so, too, I say that Cathy Jamieson will be heard.
Cathy Jamieson
Q11. Perhaps the Prime Minister can tell the House whether Mr Aidan Heavey’s donations to the Conservative party had any influence on the Foreign Secretary’s intervention in his company’s tax dispute?
The Prime Minister
As I said, the donations to the Conservative party do not buy votes at our party conference; they do not buy votes for our leader; they do not mean donors can select candidates. That is the unhealthy relationship in British politics, and the Opposition can bluster all they want, but they have been found out in Falkirk and they are being found out across the country.
Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)
Q12. Every Shropshire child receives £4,612 per annum for their education. In other parts of the country that figure is as high as £7,000, £8,000 or £9,000. This funding mechanism is completely unjust and puts Shrewsbury children at a disadvantage. Will the Prime Minister do everything in his power to help the Education Secretary change this funding mechanism before the unions try to block it?
The Prime Minister
We agree that the current system is unfair, and my hon. Friend gave the figures. We have committed to consulting on how best to introduce a national funding formula for 2015-16. We will consult widely all the interested parties to get this right. That will obviously include all Members of Parliament, and I know he will campaign very hard on that issue.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
The Tory Chair of the Treasury Select Committee has described the Government’s banking reforms as “falling short” and in some respects “virtually useless”. Is this the pay-off for all the millions the banks have poured into the Tory coffers?
The Prime Minister
It is this Government who commissioned the Vickers report. It is this Government who committed to a ring fence around retail banks. It is this Government who are legislating to have criminal sanctions against bankers. What did the last Government do? What did those two do when they were sitting in the Treasury when Northern Rock was handing out 110% mortgages? They were knighting Fred Goodwin and watching while Rome burned.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Q13. On Friday the town centre of Bury will fall silent as the people of Bury lead the nation in paying respects to Drummer Lee Rigby, who was so horrifically murdered on the streets of Woolwich. Will the Prime Minister join me in paying tribute to all his family and friends and his comrades in the Fusiliers for their calm and dignified response to their loss, and thank all those in the Church, our armed forces, the police and public services who have been engaged in the planning and preparation for the funeral?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend speaks for the whole country and the whole House when he talks about this issue. We should all pay tribute to Drummer Lee Rigby for his service to our country. I heard about it at first hand when in Afghanistan meeting other members of his regiment. We should also pay tribute to his family for all the pain and difficulty they are going through, and I am sure it will be a very fitting and moving service on Friday and the whole country will be mourning with them.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
I have a JCB factory in my constituency, and I represent its parliamentary interests as part of my parliamentary duties. Will the Prime Minister tell us how much the Foreign Secretary was paid by JCB while he was in opposition?
The Prime Minister
JCB is a great British company that exports all over the world. Instead of trying to talk it down, we should be celebrating it. It is opening businesses; it is creating employment; it is training apprentices; it is backing our academy programme. How typical of the party opposite; all it wants to do is talk down great British businesses.
Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con)
Q14. Does the Prime Minister agree that what this Government do, as when they helped us save the Medway Insolvency Service, is represent the interests of ordinary, decent trade unionists, who too often are lions led by donkeys?
The Prime Minister
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, and may I pay tribute to him for his work in saving the Medway Insolvency Service? This is important; the fact is that those in the Labour party are in hock to union leaders, and that is why they refuse to investigate the scandal of these rigged appointments. That is what this scandal is about, and that is what they refuse to talk about.
Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)
Large developers are major contributors to Conservative party funds, so could the Prime Minister tell the House what role they have played in shaping Conservative party planning policy?
The Prime Minister
As a member of Unite, the hon. Lady speaks with great authority on this subject. Let me explain again: when people donate to the Conservative party they are not buying votes for the leader, they are not buying policies and they are not buying votes at the party conference. The reason the Leader of the Opposition has his job is that trade unions bought votes in the Labour party and put him where he is. That does not happen in any other political party, and if Labour Members have got any sense at all, they will realise it is profoundly wrong.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
Q15. I am sure the Prime Minister will agree that there is no better way to build a stronger economy and a fairer society than through apprenticeships. In Solihull, the number of apprenticeships has nearly doubled already, and I am on a mission to build on that success by working with local businesses to create 100 new apprenticeships in 100 days. Will the Prime Minister support that objective?
The Prime Minister
I would certainly support my hon. Friend’s campaign, as I would support the campaign of all Members across the House to encourage people to take up apprenticeships. That is about encouraging not only young people, but businesses. In Solihull and the west midlands we have the advantage of Jaguar Land Rover, a company that is really powering ahead, taking on many more employees and also investing heavily in apprenticeships.
Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
This morning, a constituent contacted my constituency office threatening to commit suicide because they were so depressed from the effect that welfare reform was having on them. I would like to say that that was a unique incident, but it was not. Will the Prime Minister tell the House what the Government are doing to analyse the effect of welfare reform on the mental health of this country and how he is going to react to it?
The Prime Minister
As I have said many times at this Dispatch Box, I am always happy to look at individual cases, but the fact is that we badly need to have welfare reform in this country; the system was completely out of control. Housing benefit was out of control, and disability living allowance had gone up by a third in the past 10 years. We need reforms, and it is no good the shadow Chancellor gesticulating, because he now is in favour, apparently, of welfare reform; the only problem is that he opposed all £86 billion of the reforms that we have made.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
Engineering work financed by this Government is under way to re-double the line between Stroud and Swindon, which is fantastic news. Does the Prime Minister agree that it is a good example of sensible investment in infrastructure, leading to economic growth for Gloucestershire?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Investing particularly in some of the branch lines which have been single-track lines, such as the ones that serve my constituency, and turning them into double-track lines really makes the service far better and far more reliable; we can also get more people out of their cars and on to trains, and use the service like that.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
Has Lynton Crosby advised the Prime Minister to model himself on Senator McCarthy?
The Prime Minister
What I say to the hon. Gentleman is that he needs to examine again this relationship between the unions and the Labour party—that is the problem. [Interruption.] Yes, they do this: they give you the money, they buy the votes, they buy the leader. That is how it works.
Royal Mail
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)
Mr Speaker, today I have laid a report in Parliament announcing that the Government have decided to proceed with a flotation of Royal Mail shares on the London stock exchange via an initial public offering. A sale will initiate the final stage of the Government’s postal sector reforms. The overarching objective of those is to secure the universal postal service—the six-day-a-week service, at uniform and affordable prices, to all 29 million addresses in the UK, which is vital to the UK economy.
Four years ago, the independent review of the postal sector, led by Richard Hooper, concluded that the universal service was under threat. The previous Government accepted the review’s package of three main recommendations and the Bill to implement them, which would have permitted a minority sale of Royal Mail shares, was withdrawn.
In 2010, Richard Hooper’s updated report confirmed his initial findings and that a package of measures was needed to secure the universal service. Through the Postal Services Act 2011, which I introduced three years ago, we have implemented two elements of the package by establishing Ofcom as the postal regulator and taking on Royal Mail’s historic pension deficit.
As set out in today’s report, we will now implement the third and final element of the Hooper recommendations by selling shares through an IPO in this financial year. We will retain flexibility on the size of stake to be sold as that will be influenced by market conditions, investor demand and our objective to ensure overall value for money for the taxpayer. It is our intention to dispose of a majority stake, taking into account shares sold and those allocated to employees.
The IPO will include a retail offer to enable members of the public to buy shares on the same terms as the big institutional investors. At the time of the IPO, the Government will allocate 10% of the shares to an employee share scheme. Those shares will be free to eligible employees, recognising that many would otherwise find them unaffordable, and I want to strengthen employee engagement by ensuring that employees own a real stake in the business. Employees must retain their shares for at least three years, giving longevity to the scheme. Our scheme will be the biggest employee share scheme of any major privatisation for nearly 30 years.
Eligible employees will also receive priority in allocation if they purchase shares in the retail offer. I want to reassure employees that ownership change does not trigger any change in their terms and conditions. The Communication Workers Union will continue to be their recognised representative and employees’ pensions will continue to be governed by the trustees. As part of a three-year agreement, Royal Mail is also prepared to give assurances on the continuation of a predominantly full-time work force; a commitment to provide and enhance existing services to customers using the current work force with no change to the structure of the company in relation to these services; and no additional outsourcing of services.
Royal Mail is profitable and its overall financial position has significantly improved. That is partly due to the Government’s action so far, but considerable credit is also due to the management and the work force who have implemented a modernisation plan. The challenge now is to maintain that positive momentum. In recent history, Royal Mail’s core UK mails business has swung between profit and loss. In the 12 years since 2001, it suffered losses in five of those years and more than 50,000 jobs were lost. Resting on the current level of progress is not enough.
Under public ownership there is simply not the freedom to raise capital in the markets. A share sale will not only provide commercial discipline but give Royal Mail future access to private capital, enabling the company to continue modernising and to take advantage of market opportunities such as the growth in online shopping, building on its success in parcels and logistics. Recent estimates are that that market is probably worth £75 billion in the UK.
There are various myths that we must rebut. Contrary to what is being claimed, after a sale, Royal Mail will still be the UK’s universal service provider. That includes services to urban and rural areas and free services for the blind. Only an affirmative resolution in Parliament can change these minimum requirements. Free services for the armed forces are entirely independent of ownership and Royal Mail is fully reimbursed for those services by the Ministry of Defence.
Ofcom’s primary duty is to secure the provision of the universal service. It also has duties to promote competition where that benefits consumers. I want to be absolutely clear that should the two duties be in conflict, the universal service takes precedence. In March, Ofcom published a statement on its approach to end-to-end competition, making it clear that should a threat to the universal service arise from this competition, it has powers to take any necessary action. Ofcom is currently the most appropriate body to assess and react to such threats to the universal service, but as a safeguard, the Government have retained powers to direct Ofcom with respect to certain regulatory levers, such as reviewing the financial burden of the universal service and taking mitigating action to ensure that the universal service is maintained.
I also confirm that Post Office Ltd will remain a publicly owned institution, although we continue to explore mutualisation. The Government have committed to the fact that there will be no further closure programme. Royal Mail and Post Office Ltd signed a 10-year commercial agreement in 2012 to ensure that they will continue to be strong business partners.
In conclusion, the Government’s decision on the sale is practical and logical. It is a commercial decision designed to put Royal Mail’s future on a long-term, sustainable basis. It is consistent with developments elsewhere in Europe; privatised operators in Austria, Germany and Belgium produce profit margins far higher than Royal Mail’s, and have continued to provide high-quality, expanding services. The time has come for the Government to step back from Royal Mail and allow its management to focus wholeheartedly on growing the business and planning for the future. It is time for employees to hold a stake in the company and share in its success. This Government will give Royal Mail the real commercial freedom that it has needed for a long time, and I commend this statement to the House.
Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab)
We opposed the Government’s privatisation of Royal Mail during the passage of the Postal Services Act 2011; we oppose it today. Maintaining Royal Mail in public ownership gives the taxpayer an ongoing direct interest in the maintenance of universal postal services in this country; helps safeguard the vital link that the Royal Mail has with the Post Office; and ensures that the taxpayer gets to share in the upside of modernisation and the increased profits that Royal Mail delivers. Despite that, the Government have pressed on regardless with this sale, and they have failed adequately to justify why they must sell now.
On one side, there is an unusual coalition against this move: the Opposition; the Conservative-supporting Bow Group, which described this move as “poisonous”; the Royal Mail’s employees, represented of course by the CWU; and the National Federation of SubPostmasters. The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), wrote to a constituent in 2009 saying that he, too, was opposed. On the other side, there is the Government, who now include the Minister of State. The Government are ignoring the huge changes that have taken place since the passage of the Act. Chief among them is the more than doubling of Royal Mail’s profits to £403 million, which calls into question assertions that there is no prospect of the Royal Mail being self-financing in the future.
Having nationalised the organisation’s debts by taking on its pension liabilities, the Government now want to privatise the profit at the very time it is making money. How on earth does that make any sense? Now that the Government have determined to pursue this course, there is every sign that this treasured national institution is being sold off on the cheap to get income quickly to a Treasury whose economic strategy has failed. As long as the Government fail to address key questions about Royal Mail, which I will outline, that will be the conclusion that people will be entitled to reach.
I have the following questions for the Secretary of State. First, Royal Mail faces competition from other postal service operators who are not subject to the same high performance and service quality standards as it is, putting it at a competitive disadvantage. How will this not depress the sale price, and what will he do about it? Secondly, this cannot be allowed to put the Post Office at risk. What guarantees can he give that a privately owned Royal Mail will renew the agreement under which the Post Office provides Royal Mail products, which is essential to the Post Office’s future? What will happen in 2022? Is it not the case that he cannot give any guarantees on what will happen when the agreement expires? On the future of the Post Office, when can we expect to hear more on his plans for mutualisation? On what date will that commence?
Thirdly and finally, is it not the case that there is every prospect that a privatised Royal Mail will seek to sell off valuable locations in high-value urban centres for a fast buck, which will be replaced by distant depots, sorting offices and the rest, which are hard to get to for consumers and small businesses? Yes, there have been successful privatisations in times past which have delivered for the British people, but there have also been examples in rail and energy under the last Conservative Government which were badly executed privatisations that resulted in a long-term bad deal for consumers and small businesses. It is therefore not surprising that the British people oppose this move today.
Vince Cable
I think the most interesting and eloquent part of the Opposition’s response was what the hon. Gentleman did not say. He did not say that the next Labour Government, if there is one, will renationalise Royal Mail. He is opposed to privatisation, but he is not proposing to reverse it. That eloquent silence will be heard not just by the investors, but by the trade unions, so we know clearly that we are now on an irreversible course.
The hon. Gentleman talks about pressing on with this sale and his colleagues use the phrase “fire sale”. This is the longest fire sale in history. It has taken five years from the inception of the process under a Labour Government. He talks about self-financing. He knows perfectly well what the rules of public finance are—that a nationalised institution is not able to borrow freely in the markets, as it would wish. It is useful to compare the experience of Royal Mail with what is happening in, for example, Germany. The hon. Gentleman often cites Germany as a role model for good industrial policy, and we have many lessons to learn from it. Germany has a privatised mail system. In the past two years it has invested €750 million and will do so next year, raised on the market, competing ahead of Royal Mail in what are increasingly international markets. I hope he heeds that experience.
The hon. Gentleman worries about a race to the bottom in competition. The main competition for Royal Mail has not come from private competitors; it has come from technology. Within the past 10 years, mail has lost 25% of its business because of e-mail and we have to respond to that. Royal Mail was declining. It was in danger of losing the universal service obligation. We are now giving it the tools to compete and to be a successful enterprise—something that will benefit the country and the workers within it.
Mr Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton) (Con)
I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement about the floatation of Royal Mail. That is long overdue. He gave a commitment to no further closures by Post Office Ltd. Will he therefore look into proposals by Post Office Ltd to close the Crown post office and move it to the back of a shop, against the wishes of thousands of my constituents and against the wishes and interests of businesses located in that part of Littlehampton?
Vince Cable
There are indeed many individual cases which are difficult, often because postmasters or postmistresses wish to retire, but the big picture in respect of the Post Office, which I hope my hon. Friend will recognise, is that we have stopped the mass closure of post offices that took place under the previous Government. We have a network of 11,500 post offices which we are preserving. This Government, despite the financial pressures on them, committed themselves over this spending review to spending £1.3 billion on modernising and upgrading the Post Office and giving it a real future.
Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
The Postal Services Act 2011 insisted that the universal postal service must be financially sustainable. Given the huge loss of rural services in privatised Post Offices across the world, particularly in New Zealand, what magic wand will the right hon. Gentleman give to Ofcom to turn rural services from loss-making to profit-making?
Vince Cable
Of course there is no magic wand, but with a combination of modernisation and support, and maintaining community-based post offices, which we are committed to do, many of the warnings that the Opposition have given us will be superfluous.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
Will the Secretary of State confirm that what he has announced is consistent with the Liberal Democrats’ 2010 manifesto and the coalition agreement, in that only a minority of shares will be put out to the private sector for purchase and the majority interest will be retained by the Government and the employees? That is what I support. I do not support a majority sale.
Vince Cable
I made it very clear that the Government plan to become a minority shareholder in the company and that the majority will be a combination of shares sold in the market and shares held by employees. We are not predicting at this stage how far the sale will go, as that will depend on the market.
Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab)
What sorts of significant investors has the Secretary of State in mind?
Vince Cable
There will be a combination of institutional and private investors. There will be a retail offering that can be obtained by two routes: by applying to the Government directly over the internet, and through brokers. Ownership will be widely dispersed.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
Some 20 years ago, as Post Office Minister, I tried to privatise Royal Mail. We could not get it through because of Labour intransigence. Labour Members were wrong then and they are wrong now. Has not the only result of the delay been a lack of investment and an inability on the part of this publicly owned corporation to respond to international and technological challenges?
Vince Cable
I know that it is tempting to blame the Labour party for a lot of things, but I seem to remember that the attempted privatisation under the hon. Gentleman’s stewardship ground to a halt because Mrs Thatcher was against it. We have moved on and circumstances are different. Indeed, this is a substantial commitment to making a real success of what the Prime Minister called a very important public service.
Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)
Why does the Secretary of State not consider the kind of business model used by Welsh Water, which the Library has advised me is perfectly compatible with the Act, which successfully combines social obligations and commercial imperatives and raises capital more cheaply without contributing to Government debt? A survey by the Tory Bow Group shows that 67% of the public oppose privatisation, as do 96% of the work force. Why does he not stop dogmatically pursuing a flotation and instead adopt that positive, popular and viable alternative?
Vince Cable
There is a long and complex debate about how water companies are operated. Of course, they have extremely high gearing because of the nature of their business and do not require anything like the same level of equity. We have a model that combines the best use of equity markets and the level of debt that the company will need to finance its future investment.
Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that, although Royal Mail’s financial position has improved, it still lags considerably far behind international competitors such as Deutsche Post, Belgian Post and Austrian Post? Is not the simple fact that Royal Mail, as part of the public sector, has its hands tied in a way that its international competitors do not?
Vince Cable
Yes, it is tied because of the limitations on borrowing possibilities and what many people perceive to be the potential for political intervention. The companies that the hon. Gentleman mentioned—in Austria, Belgium and Germany—all of which are privatised, are indeed highly profitable, and they also invest heavily. They are making deep inroads into the international logistics market and it is time Royal Mail was competing successfully with them.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
As the Secretary of State has said, Royal Mail’s performance has gone from strength to strength, so why will the Government not commit to building on what has been achieved and keep it in public ownership, where we can guarantee that future profits will be invested in what is good for Britain, rather than what is good for a few select shareholders?
Vince Cable
We are building on the success of the modernisation of the last few years, and I pay tribute to the management and the work force who have made that possible. The one factor that the hon. Lady’s model does not deal with is how a company of that kind raises substantial amounts of capital when it would be in direct competition with schools, hospitals and other bodies that require public sector investment. That is the big inhibition at the moment.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
Settle post office, deep in the Yorkshire dales, has benefited hugely from the Government’s Post Office reforms. Will the Secretary of State confirm that one of the most rural areas of Britain will benefit even more from the changes he has announced today?
Vince Cable
Post Office Ltd is a separate organisation under a publicly owned umbrella, and within that there are large numbers of highly competitive, self-employed entrepreneurs who run the post office network. We are supporting it substantially, modernising it and preventing large-scale closures. There is indeed an excellent future for the hon. Gentleman’s local post office.
Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)
The Secretary of State said that this process began five years ago with the Hooper review, and he is right, but will he also confirm that the critical difference between the Bill he passed and the one proposed by the previous Government was that our Bill contained a clause stating that Royal Mail must remain publicly owned?
Vince Cable
Indeed. We are moving to a higher level of private involvement than was envisaged under the 2008 proposals, and the reason, which I have given very clearly, is that that minority state ownership would not have enabled the company to borrow as freely as it should.
Charles Hendry (Wealden) (Con)
I warmly welcome the proposals. Will the Secretary of State say a little more about the Government’s role in setting performance standards and ensuring they are met, specifically in relation to the proportion of letters and packages that should be delivered in a certain time scale and what is an appropriate price for consumers to pay for that service?
Vince Cable
The Government will not be involved in day-to-day oversight of Royal Mail; it will be governed by the regulator, which will set the appropriate standard.
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)
Royal Mail workers and their management have co-operated in a process of radical change to transform Royal Mail into an efficient, effective and profitable world-class company. The public do not want privatisation, and posties do not want privatisation. Will the Secretary of State join me in paying tribute to Royal Mail workers, who by a 96% vote in a ballot said, “Keep your bribe. We want to remain public posties”?
Vince Cable
There was a substantial vote on that consultative ballot, but I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that it takes precedence over the vote of the House of Commons, which after all brought the process into being. I have already freely acknowledged that the CWU, despite the rhetoric we sometimes hear from it, has played a very constructive role in the modernisation, and we want to help it, as a result of this share offer, to become further aligned in the long term with the interests of the company. If the company makes money and succeeds, the CWU will derive additional benefit.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the six-day-a-week service will continue after privatisation and across the whole country?
Vince Cable
Absolutely. That is the fundamental of the universal service obligation, which can be changed only by an affirmative vote of this House.
Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister acknowledged the importance of the contractual relationship between Royal Mail and the sustainability of the post office network, and in a previous answer he acknowledged the issue of elderly sub-postmasters retiring. What assessment has he made of the viability of the post office network, given the uncertainty that the privatisation of Royal Mail will create in the minds of people who might take on post offices when sub-postmasters retire?
Vince Cable
As I explained, there is currently a 10-year agreement in place, which takes us into the Parliament after next. Few other businesses operate with that degree of regulatory certainty.
Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con)
This is a very good day, because privatisations are good, which is why they have not been reversed in the past. It is also a good day because this privatisation includes shares for workers. Will the Secretary of State elaborate on the 10% shareholding that the Government will be giving free of charge to Royal Mail employees?
Vince Cable
I do not think that a great deal of elaboration is necessary. As I said, the shareholding will be free of charge. In addition, workers will have priority, should they wish to buy an additional shareholding. The principle under which the share scheme will operate is that it will be locked in for three years to give the arrangement longevity. I imagine that most postal workers will want to hold the shares for at least five years to take full advantage of the tax incentives available, for example the absence of capital gains tax, under the current scheme.
Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)
The Secretary of State might be sincere in what he says, but does he not realise that the vast majority of the public, particularly in the countryside and in rural areas, just do not believe that the universal service is guaranteed, because they know what has happened in other privatised industries? How can he ensure that it really will be guaranteed? I do not believe it, most Opposition Members probably do not believe it, and Conservative Members who fought against it last time, when Margaret Thatcher was against it, do not believe it. This is a very wrong decision.
Vince Cable
The best way of reassuring the public is to demolish some of the myths. The fact is that the universal service obligation was clearly underwritten by Parliament; it is embedded in legislation and cannot be removed. I hope the hon. Lady will pass that message on to her constituents.
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
May I commend the Secretary of State for this most welcome announcement? The people in my constituency who will be most concerned about it will be the postal workers. Will he spend a moment reassuring them about their future in a privatised Royal Mail? In particular, what does he anticipate the additional capital that a private Royal Mail will be able to take on will do for them and their jobs?
Vince Cable
As I explained, Royal Mail has offered a three-year deal to the workers which they are still considering. It is relatively generous in respect of pay—considerably in excess of the public sector norm. They are being given assurances on the nature of work and the absence of any further outsourcing. They will benefit under these proposals from the appreciation of the shares they receive free of charge. I would have thought that if I were a Royal Mail worker thinking of my individual situation, I would think this a very good deal.
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
Is not this statement a total and cynical violation of the election manifesto on which the Secretary of State fought the last election—which, with some distaste, I hold in my hand? Is not this typical of a Liberal Democrat who made promises on the basis that he would never expect to have to carry them out? He has said that there will be no further closure programme. How does he reconcile that with the plan to close Wellington street post office in Gorton in my constituency, which has aroused fury in local residents?
Vince Cable
I find it extraordinary that Labour Members are raising the issue of post office closures. I think that three major waves of closures took place under the previous Government. We have stopped that and we are investing very heavily in new infrastructure to enable post offices to compete.
Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)
Public sector Royal Mail wants to close a delivery office at South Bank in my constituency and has recently stopped sorting mail in the Tees valley altogether for the 750,000 people who live there. Does my right hon. Friend agree that a private sector Royal Mail will be more likely to review such decisions for overall value for money and customer service?
Vince Cable
Yes, I am sure that it should do that, but I do not wish to comment on the details of the industrial dispute that has led to that difficulty.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
Does the Secretary of State share my concern that a private buyer is more likely to sell off delivery offices in town centres, moving them to out-of-town and less accessible locations for those picking up parcels? What guarantees can he give to consumers and small businesses who rely on our Royal Mail sorting offices?
Vince Cable
I thought that in the first part of her question the hon. Lady was perhaps mixing up the Post Office and Royal Mail. Of course, the post office network remains publicly owned, with all the implications involved. The private Royal Mail will be able to use its assets to the best possible advantage. Of course there will be change, much of it driven by technology.
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)
Why does my right hon. Friend think that Labour Members and their CWU friends have been exaggerating the myths about the risks faced by Royal Mail, other than for their own political gain?
Vince Cable
The hon. Gentleman makes my point for me. I am trying to work constructively with the CWU, as is my colleague, the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon). We realise that it is in its interests that this succeeds, and we are trying to persuade it to work with us constructively.
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
The Business Secretary said that as part of a three-year agreement Royal Mail is prepared to give a number of assurances. Ultimately, what control will the Government have in seeing that those assurances are implemented?
Vince Cable
Let me clear: these were not Government commitments but assurances by the management of Royal Mail, who will, I hope, reach a satisfactory agreement with their work force. It is currently under dispute, but there will be a traditional type of industrial agreement and I am sure that it will be honoured.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
I welcome modernisation of the Post Office, but does my right hon. Friend agree that the Post Office and Royal Mail are not just places of economic capital but important parts of our social fabric? Please can he reassure hard-working Harlow postmen and postwomen that privatisation will not lead to a repeat of what happened with some of the utility companies, particularly water companies, where they have avoided tax, directors have awarded themselves huge bonuses, and prices have gone up by ridiculous amounts?
Vince Cable
Of course we need to get tough with systematic tax avoidance. My colleagues in the Treasury have been setting out how we want to do that, because it was allowed to happen for far too long. The essential point is that this is not just a typical business; it is a major national institution with social obligations. That is why I began by saying that the overarching objective is to secure the universal service obligation.
Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab)
The Secretary of State only has to look at the rail and energy companies to see examples of how badly executed privatisation has led to sub-standard service and high prices that put those services out of the reach of many of my constituents. Is he seriously telling this House that he is going to ignore the overwhelming concern of the majority of the British public and fail to protect such a vital institution?
Vince Cable
We had 12 years of a Labour Government who had an opportunity to reverse many of the privatisations that occurred, and they did not. I presume that was a recognition that the balance of advantage was positive.
George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)
I welcome the Department’s bravery in setting out this initiative so that Royal Mail can gain access to the investment and innovation that are available to other competing services. I particularly welcome the statutory protection for the six-day universal service for rural areas and the provisions for employee ownership. Does the Secretary of State agree that those in this House who want to support public services do them no favours by locking them in aspic and denying them that which makes the private sector able to flourish and succeed?
Vince Cable
Yes, I am sure that is absolutely right. I hope that those words will also be taken to heart by the CWU.
Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
Is the Secretary of State aware that about 30 years ago Mrs Thatcher privatised countless public utilities? It was called the share-owning democracy: the British people would hold the shares, they would last for ever, it would be nirvana. The net result was that all those public utilities—oil, gas, water, electricity—are now owned abroad. What guarantees can he give, as a little Liberal, on just how we manage to keep this so-called share-owning democracy in this country? Why doesn’t he do the decent thing—meet Billy Hayes and the CWU, scrap this, act like a man, and get back to where he used to be?
Vince Cable
I have perfectly amicable conversations with Mr Hayes and his colleagues, and they will undoubtedly continue. I was not sure whether the hon. Gentleman’s tirade was directed at privatisation or foreign ownership; they are rather different issues. I think that foreign owners have made a major contribution to this country. Some of our leading manufacturing companies are run by foreign owners who have invested in the long term and have made a real commitment to this country. I am certainly not going to impose nationalistic restrictions on ownership.
Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con)
Ever since the penny black, we have had the monarch’s image on our stamps. Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that the Queen’s image—the Queen’s head—will remain on our stamps?
Vince Cable
Indeed. That was raised when the Postal Services Act 2011 went through the House two and half years ago. The commitments were made then, and they are embedded in legislation.
Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)
Will the Secretary of State confirm what proportion of the sale proceeds will be reinvested in the business rather than taken as profit?[Official Report, 15 July 2013, Vol. 566, c. 3-4MC.]
Vince Cable
We are not making any advance predictions as to what the sale proceeds will be or how they will be utilised. We are giving Royal Mail the commercial freedom to make those decisions itself.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
Will the Secretary of State confirm that having access to private capital and no longer competing with schools and hospitals for capital will protect jobs in the medium term as well as protecting the universal service obligation?
Vince Cable
Yes, it will. There is a theological argument, as it were, about the circumstances under which public agencies should borrow, but at the moment the rules are such that Royal Mail would be directly competing with capital investment in schools and hospitals. That is not healthy, and it is much more sensible that the company is put in a position where it can utilise capital from the markets.
Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)
My hon. Friends and I steadfastly oppose the privatisation; that will come as no surprise to the Secretary of State. He says that the USO is safe, but Ofcom has already abandoned price controls apart from on second-class letters and confirmed that there is nothing to stop zonal pricing being introduced. Under what definition does that make it safe?
Vince Cable
It is a universal service obligation—that is what it says and that is what it means. It is embedded in law and there is no prospect of the scare the hon. Gentleman has just tried to generate for Scotland being manifested in reality.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
Plans to privatise Royal Mail started well before the general election and I congratulate all those who have brought it up to standard and ready for this market opportunity. Postmen stand to gain significantly in financial terms and management will be able to raise capital for investment. Will the Secretary of State reassure me that customers will also be protected, that the robust regulatory arrangement will remain with Ofcom and that it will stand up on their behalf?
Vince Cable
The hon. Gentleman will know that consumer standards are indeed embedded in the system of regulation. In particular, there is an agreed cap on the price of a second class stamp, and that remains.
Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)
As a result of the Government’s legislation, TNT now provides postal services in parts of London. It employs staff on zero-hour contracts at £7.10 per hour. Apparently it employs too many staff, so every day postal workers are sent home. Is this the face of the terms and conditions of postal workers in the future?
Vince Cable
As the hon. Lady may have heard, I am having a look at the evidence on zero-hour contracts. Many employees as well as employers think it is a perfectly sensible system, but there have been complaints. We are looking at the issue and trying to make a balanced judgment.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
In my constituency, Dover and Deal is one of the fastest growing areas for internet businesses. Is it not the case that the protections for deliveries and collections are not just a matter of good politics but important to our economy? Many of the small, internet businesses in my area depend on that security.
Vince Cable
They do, indeed. Trade through the internet is one of the things that Britain does exceptionally well. We are probably the leading country in the world in internet-based commerce. By strengthening Royal Mail, we will be able to create a platform to enable that to increase even further.
Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab)
As a shadow business Minister I opposed this proposal in the Postal Services Bill Committee and in the House. I also oppose what the Secretary of State has said today. May I press him further on the link between Royal Mail and the Post Office? Is he able to guarantee that, post-2022, the vital link between the Post Office and Royal Mail will survive? A simple yes or no will suffice.
Vince Cable
The hon. Gentleman says he opposes what we are doing, but why does he not say that he wants to reverse it? That is the question. There is a 10-year agreement, which offers a remarkable degree of security for the Post Office. Frankly, my mind boggles at the fact that the Opposition regard 10 years as inadequate.
Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)
I welcome the statement and think it offers the best future for Royal Mail. Does the Secretary of State agree with the remarks made by the chief executive of Royal Mail before the Postal Services Bill Committee? She said that, without privatisation,
“you will see a continuation of what have been chronic problems for Royal Mail.”––[Official Report, Postal Services Public Bill Committee, 9 November 2010; c. 4, Q3.]
Vince Cable
There will be—and those chronic problems are most manifest in the fact that in five of the past 10 years Royal Mail has made losses. It is not a viable enterprise and is unable to sustain the universal service obligation. This gives it the real opportunity to do that.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
Does the Secretary of State not understand that postmasters, postmistresses and their customers all have grave concerns? They know that their branches are already in trouble and remember the botched privatisations of rail and the utilities during the 1980s and ’90s. They also recognise that the danger is that we will see the same problem—increased prices and reduced services.
Vince Cable
Post offices have had a remarkably good deal—I am repeating what I have said many times. We have put a line under the large-scale closures repeatedly experienced under the previous Government. Despite the pressures on public finance, we are investing £1.3 billion. Post offices have a 10-year agreement to provide stability in their link with Royal Mail. This very difficult business is being sustained in an exceptionally attractive environment.
Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)
I warmly welcome the statement: modernisation of Royal Mail is long overdue. A six-day delivery service is a lifeline for isolated rural communities. May I stress to my right hon. Friend how important it is to maintain that and ask him to do all he can to make sure it happens?
Vince Cable
That does not require any effort from me: the hon. Gentleman is a Member of this House who voted through legislation that embeds that commitment in law.
Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)
I noted that in his list of comparators the Secretary of State did not mention the Netherlands, where TNT is running the service in the same way it is now being run in London. He did not mention Network Rail, which is allowed to borrow on the private market. What he did mention was that a future Minister would be able to direct Ofcom in any way possible. Given that the Institute of Economic Affairs called this morning for a ban on the universal service obligation, for zonal pricing and for not making deliveries six days a week in the countryside, is it not true that, if this privatisation goes through, the only way to guarantee that the conditions in the Bill remain active will be to vote Labour at the next election?
Vince Cable
I am struck by the fact that, instead of dealing with the proposal on its merits, Opposition Members are inventing fantasies about zonal pricing and the abandonment of the terms of the contract that Royal Mail is offering. There is no realistic prospect of those things happening. Enormous security is provided by an Act of Parliament. That should be enough for most people.
Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)
As we all know, Labour tried but failed to bring private capital into Royal Mail, and its botched attempt to do that was opposed by Members on both sides of the House. Is not the difference between this and Labour’s set of proposals that this set protects the universal service, investment in the Post Office and postal workers’ pensions and gives postal workers a real stake in the future of this great British business?
Vince Cable
The previous Government’s capitulation on their Bill was one of their less glorious episodes. We have maintained the best principles of that effort and have carried it one step further. We are now implementing it, and it has all the positive features described by my hon. Friend.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
The emphasis that the Secretary of State has placed on what a future Labour Government would do in terms of privatisation suggests that the timing of this privatisation has as much to do with getting it through before the next general election as with getting the best price.
Vince Cable
I think the hon. Lady has a poor memory, although she might remember that this was the first major Bill that this Government introduced—a fact that I recall because I introduced it.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
I worked for a newly privatised company in the 1980s and the commercial transformation was fantastic, so I welcome this statement. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that Royal Mail will enjoy the broader commercial freedoms that allow other companies to compete? For Royal Mail, that means access to capital and the freedom to seek broader commercial opportunities, such as its European business, to make the business stronger for the future.
Vince Cable
I believe that my hon. Friend’s experience was with the National Freight Corporation, which was one of the many successful privatisations that nobody would dream of reversing. He makes the specific point that there are major opportunities for Royal Mail in international trade through logistics. That market is now opening up. One of our central objectives in the single market negotiations is to lift the barriers to e-commerce, and Royal Mail has the potential to benefit substantially from that, provided it invests substantially. This action will enable it to do that.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
Is the Secretary of State able to give a guarantee that, if this proposal proceeds, my constituents in rural north Wales will pay exactly the same for a stamp as constituents in Westminster?
Vince Cable
Yes, of course, and the right hon. Gentleman should know that because he voted through the legislation to provide that guarantee.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
Although I warmly welcome today’s announcement, may I press the Secretary of State to confirm that in rural areas such as those around Salisbury there will never be a prospect of a second-tier service opening up, even after the first three years beyond this measure taking effect?
Vince Cable
I have repeated many times that the universal service obligation is embedded in law and being policed by Ofcom. That is the situation and it will continue.
Susan Elan Jones
The Government’s remarkable achievement in uniting the National Federation of SubPostmasters, CWU members and the Countryside Alliance is a sign of how appalling this decision is. Does the Secretary of State agree that it is high time that he considered the matter properly and reflected on its impact on rural areas?
Vince Cable
We have devoted four to five years of parliamentary time to reflecting on this process, and we are now doing something about it. The hon. Lady includes bodies such as the National Federation of SubPostmasters in her roll call of institutions, but this announcement has nothing to do with the Post Office, which remains under public ownership and is supported in the ways I have described.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Will the Secretary of State confirm to Royal Mail employees in Kettering that under these proposals they face a 9% pay deal, that the change in ownership will not trigger any change in their terms and conditions, that they will be entitled to their fair share of up to 10% free shares in the new business, and that they will be part of the biggest employee share scheme of any major privatisation?
Vince Cable
The hon. Gentleman summarises the benefits admirably, and I would be amazed if, when they sit down and reflect calmly, members of the Communications Workers Union do not see it the same way.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
In his statement the Secretary of State said, “The Government have retained powers to direct Ofcom with respect to certain regulatory levers, such as reviewing the financial burden of the universal service”. What can that mean other than differential charges for a universal service in less-populated areas and in rural areas, fragmentation of the service, and casual labour used to deliver the post in areas that they have no knowledge about?
Vince Cable
The hon. Gentleman is venturing into a fantasy world. The service obligation is universal and I was providing reassurance that the Government have back-stop powers to protect that obligation, not to undermine it.
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
I warmly welcome today’s announcement. It was a pleasure to serve on the Postal Services Bill Committee and watch the previous Government’s half-baked privatisation plans become the excellent proposals before us today. Does the Secretary of State agree that the proposals represent an excellent deal for postmen and postwomen across the UK, allowing Royal Mail to modernise and win a higher proportion of the rapidly expanding packages market?
Vince Cable
Yes, that is absolutely right. Royal Mail is making money from packaging although it is losing money from traditional mail delivery. It is therefore important that it has the investment to take that packaging business forward.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
I was frankly astounded and appalled at the Secretary of State’s attitude towards zero-hour contracts in the postal services. Will he confirm that there is nothing contradictory about maintaining universal service delivery across the United Kingdom, and the introduction of regional and zonal pricing for those services? Will he stand at the Dispatch Box and say that there will be no moves towards regional or zonal pricing in the future?
Vince Cable
There will be no moves in that direction. I am slightly astounded by the hon. Gentleman’s comments on zero-hour contracts. Such contracts operated for many years under the Labour Government, who chose to do nothing about them whatsoever. I am the first Secretary of State who has investigated exactly what is going on in that market.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement; this is probably the most sustainable way of ensuring the future of Royal Mail. Will he explain why he has settled on a figure of 10% for company shareholding for posties, and say whether there is scope to consider a slightly bigger stake for posties in Reading and the country so that workers have a bigger say in what happens in Royal Mail?
Vince Cable
The legislation provided for at least 10% and we are proposing a 10% free share offer. Postal workers will have priority if there is excessive demand, and stakes could be built up considerably beyond 10%.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
What long-term decisions will the Secretary of State take, based on only three-year assurances about jobs and services?
Vince Cable
They were not my assurances; they were given by the employer, which is Royal Mail. A three-year agreement is perhaps rather long for much of industry, and the work force will have to negotiate again with its future employers.
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
I recently visited the Cardiff mail centre in my constituency and the Penarth delivery office. Given the provenance of the chief executive of Royal Mail, will the Secretary of State assure me that he will not be taking lessons on universal delivery from Canada Post. In many rural areas and small towns in Canada there is no universal delivery service and residents have to pick up their mail from smaller delivery and sorting offices?
Vince Cable
If there are particular defects or a genuine breakdown in universal services in an area we can consider that, but that is not my understanding of how the service operates.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
The Secretary of State mentioned increased profitability in states where postal services have been privatised, but was that achieved on the back of increased prices and reduced delivery days, as in Holland? What does he think the effect will be on small businesses located in rural areas if costs spiral and delivery days are reduced?
Vince Cable
Costs will not spiral and, as I said in an earlier answer, the regulator has imposed a cap on the cost of a second class stamp. Other elements that small businesses in rural areas need, such as a guarantee of the universal service obligation, lie at the heart of what I have been saying this afternoon.
Mr Speaker
We are grateful to the Secretary of State and to colleagues. Fifty-two Back Benchers questioned him in 38 minutes of Back-Bench time. If other Ministers were as brief in responding, we would get everybody in every time.
Middle East and North Africa
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I will update the House on the UK’s response to events in the middle east and north Africa. Members on both sides will be concerned about the situation in Egypt. Our embassy in Cairo is offering assistance to British nationals, and we advise against all non-essential travel to Egypt outside the Red sea resorts.
I made it clear last week that the United Kingdom does not support military intervention in democratic politics, although we recognise that many Egyptians welcomed the action that was taken. I have been in close contact with the acting Egyptian Foreign Minister, Mohammed Kamel Amr, and I have emphasised the importance of an urgent return to democratic processes and expressed our deep concern at the deaths of more than 50 protesters.
The Egyptian authorities have announced an interim Prime Minister, Hazen Beblawi, and a timetable for new elections. The process should be inclusive, open to all parties, and lead to free and fair elections. That should therefore mean the release of political leaders and journalists, agreement on a new constitution and the checks and balances of a democratic system, and urgent steps to reform Egypt’s economy.
Two years ago the Egyptian people demanded a real democratic voice, and jobs not corruption in the economy. So far their leaders have failed to deliver that. However, the hunger and aspiration for a better Egypt are as strong and urgent as ever. It is vital for their own country and the region that all sides rise above self-interest and work towards an open, democratic and reforming Egypt.
There is no alternative to the long, painstaking work of making a success of transitions in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya and Yemen. That is why, for example, I announced in a written statement to the House yesterday that the UK will train 2,000 Libyan armed forces personnel in basic infantry skills. That is part of a broader effort with the US, Italy and France, agreed at the G8, to help the Libyan Government disarm and integrate militias and improve security.
Democratic change is a process, not an event, and those countries will see setbacks as well as successes. However, we should not lose faith in the people of the region, the vast majority of whom seek prosperity and dignity for their countries. We must therefore provide patient, long-term support to Governments and civil society in the region, as we are doing through the Deauville partnership that we are promoting during our G8 presidency, and the UK-Arab partnership initiative that supports women’s participation, electoral reform, economic development, and the building of democratic institutions. Achieving lasting positive change will be the work of a generation.
That goes hand in hand with our support for the middle east peace process, and I pay tribute to Secretary Kerry for tirelessly preparing the ground for a return to negotiations. The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) and I have visited Israeli and Palestinian leaders in recent weeks, to urge them to enter negotiations. We are ready to work with the EU and Arab nations and offer practical support, and I call on Israelis and Palestinians to show the necessary courage. This may be the last opportunity to achieve a two-state solution. That also requires progress on Gaza because the status quo there is not sustainable. All sides need to implement the ceasefire agreement, which includes a permanent end to rocket attacks and an easing of Israeli restrictions.
We will make every effort to persuade Iran to negotiate an end to the crisis over its nuclear programme. We look to a new Government in Iran to give a comprehensive response to the proposal by E3 plus 3 for a confidence-building measure, and to co-operate fully with the International Atomic Energy Agency. We will respond in good faith to positive action by Iran. We are ready to improve our relations on a step-by-step basis, but no one should doubt our resolve to prevent nuclear proliferation.
The middle east is vital to our national interests and security. It would be a major strategic error for our country or our allies to turn away from the region. That includes the conflict in Syria, where the death toll is mounting, extremism and sectarianism are growing and the risk of the total collapse of the country is ever-present. The Assad regime has ramped up its military assault using air strikes, Scud missiles and artillery. As many as 13,000 Syrian civilians have been killed since my last statement to the House on 20 May, and UN figures for the total number of deaths will soon exceed 100,000 people. There are 4.25 million internally displaced people inside Syria, and 1.7 million refugees are placing an immense strain on the stability and economies of neighbouring countries. By the end of the year, 10 million people could be in need of assistance—almost half the population of Syria.
We judge that Iran is providing personnel, equipment, weapons and financial assistance to the Assad regime, which is also being supported by thousands of Hezbollah fighters from Lebanon. We call on Syria to allow the UN unfettered access to investigate incidents of chemical weapons use in Syria. Those responsible for any attacks should be held to account. We have passed evidence of the use of sarin in Syria to the UN, and we were concerned to see new, unconfirmed reports over the weekend of chemical attacks in Homs.
Faced with the growing and protracted crisis, to which there is no end in sight, we have three objectives: to promote a political solution in Syria, to help save lives and to protect the national security of the United Kingdom. First, a political transition in Syria remains the best hope of ending the violence. I attended meetings of the core group of the Friends of Syria in Amman on 22 May and Doha on 22 June. We agreed to increase practical support to the opposition and to channel that support through the National Coalition. We all want a political solution, but that will not be possible if legitimate opposition can be obliterated.
On 17 June the G8, including Russia, re-affirmed support for a second conference in Geneva, leading to the creation of a transitional governing body with full executive powers in Syria. Since May, the National Coalition has expanded its membership significantly, to include other opposition groups and the moderate armed opposition. It has pledged to increase the provision of services in opposition-held areas and to build up local governance structures. On Saturday the National Coalition elected a new president, Ahmed al-Jarba, and we will work with him to help the Syrian opposition promote its vision of a free, democratic and pluralistic Syria that defends the rights of all Syrians. The regime offensive of recent weeks has made it even harder to bring a Geneva conference together, but we will continue our diplomacy with the US, Russia, Arab nations and the UN to bring about a conference while preparing for the risk that the conflict worsens.
So, secondly, we are working to save lives. We have already provided more than £12 million in non-lethal assistance to the National Coalition, local councils and civil society. We have provided armoured vehicles, body armour, generators, communications equipment and other non-lethal equipment, as well as training for human rights activists to document human rights violations. We will provide a further £20 million, which we have already announced, in non-lethal assistance in the coming months, including communications support and training for the National Coalition. We are exploring the possibility of helping to establish civilian policing structures in opposition-held areas, and the supply of protective equipment against the use of chemical and biological weapons. This week we will again deploy UK experts to Syria’s borders to train health professionals and human rights defenders to document evidence of rape and sexual violence.
As I explained to the House in March, we are providing technical assistance for the protection of civilians. That includes advice and training on how to maintain security in areas no longer controlled by the regime, on co-ordination between civilian and military councils, on how to protect civilians and minimise the risks to them and on how to maintain security during a transition. On the question of any future lethal support—arming the opposition or intervening militarily ourselves—the Government’s position has not changed. No decision has been made, and any decision would be put to the House on a substantive motion.
We have doubled the United Kingdom’s humanitarian assistance for Syria and its neighbours to £348 million over the next two years. That includes £50 million for Syrian refugees and host communities in Jordan, and £50 million for Lebanon, which the International Development Secretary announced on Monday while in the region. I condemn yesterday’s bomb attack in Beirut and call on all Lebanese parties to work together to resist any efforts by extremists and terrorists to undermine Lebanon’s hard-won peace.
The longer the Syria conflict continues, the more important it becomes to provide stabilisation and development support where we are able to do so, as well as urgent humanitarian assistance. The UK will continue to lead efforts to improve the effectiveness of the international humanitarian response. Last week, the International Development Secretary hosted a meeting with like-minded states and the heads of key agencies, and she will also host a separate event to plan international support to Syrian after a transition.
Thirdly and finally, we are determined to protect UK national security against risks posed by groups in Syria that are affiliated or aligned to al-Qaeda, including the al-Nusra Front and al-Qaeda in Iraq, and that are taking advantage of ungoverned space created by the conflict. We judge that more than 100 UK-linked individuals of concern have now travelled to Syria, and some individuals returning to the UK could pose a long-term terrorist threat.
The most important step in tackling the threat of terrorism is to end the conflict and secure a transition to a new, legitimate government in Syria. However, extremists should be in no doubt of the action that we are prepared to take to protect our national security. Our intelligence agencies and police are working to identify and disrupt potential threats, and the police have the power to examine and detain individuals at the UK border to investigate any concerns of involvement in terrorism. UK nationals of concern seeking to travel from the UK can have their passports refused or withdrawn, and foreign nationals resident in the UK can have their leave to remain revoked if they are deemed non-conducive to the public good.
International diplomacy has failed so far to resolve the crisis in Syria. The UK will continue to play a leading role in promoting a political solution, even though we may have to persist over many months; in saving lives, on which we can be proud of the contribution our country makes; and in safeguarding our national security at all times. We will continue to help countries in the middle east and north Africa make a success of their transitions, while keeping faith with their peoples, protecting the UK’s interests and trying to widen international peace and security.
Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
I thank the Foreign Secretary for his statement and for advance sight of it.
I come first to events in Egypt. Although the events of the past two weeks have been a major setback for democracy, they need not represent an irreversible trend. The role of the military in any democracy must be both clearly defined and subject to Executive oversight, so the priority must now be a return to civilian rule through a credible transition process that results in swift, fair and free elections. I welcome the recent statement by interim president Mansour setting a deadline for new elections to be held before February 2014. However, recent reports suggest that not all parties have accepted that process, and there have been recent statements from the Muslim Brotherhood apparently refusing to take part. Does the Foreign Secretary agree that it is vital that the transition process from interim to full civilian government must be inclusive and representative if it is to be seen to be legitimate?
Recent reports of the arrest and imprisonment of political activists, representatives and journalists in Egypt are deeply concerning, including reports today about Egypt’s prosecutor’s office issuing warrants for a number of people affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood. Will the Foreign Secretary make clear the British Government’s position on political prisoners in Egypt?
Egypt’s long-term future will be secured not simply by an end to violence but also by the start of economic recovery. The Foreign Secretary spoke of the Deauville partnership. How much of the $38 billion originally intended from that fund, as cited in his answer to me in October 2011, has now been allocated? If he cannot give the figure this afternoon, will he place a note in the Library setting out the allocation figures?
I turn to the ongoing crisis in Syria. I welcome, of course, the confirmation of the uplift in the UK’s commitment to help alleviate the humanitarian crisis, but the situation is none the less deteriorating. Only this morning, the Intelligence and Security Committee published a report that expresses “serious concern” about al-Qaeda elements gaining access to the “vast stockpiles” of chemical weapons within Syria. It is therefore a matter of real regret that the recent G8 summit in Northern Ireland, hosted by the United Kingdom, failed to deliver the breakthrough that we all wanted to see in relation to Syria. We all hoped that a firm date would be set for the start of Geneva 2, but even that was missing from the final communiqué. Will the Foreign Secretary set out a little more specifically what he judges the prospects to be for Geneva 2 being convened in the weeks and months ahead? I welcome his commitment that the Prime Minister intends to recall Parliament and call for a vote on a substantive motion if any decision is taken by the Government to send lethal military equipment to the Syrian opposition.
May I ask the Foreign Secretary about Jordan? It seemed a curious omission from his statement. Jordan has been a long-standing ally of the United Kingdom. I am aware that humanitarian support is being provided to Za’atari and other camps in Jordan. May I press him on what consideration the Government are giving to what other practical assistance and support can be provided to Jordan, beyond humanitarian support? The country is feeling the strain, given the extraordinary generosity it has shown during the crisis.
On the middle east peace process, we welcome the recent efforts by US Secretary of State John Kerry to bring parties together and reinvigorate the stalled talks. On departing from Israel last week, after the last of his five visits to the region alone this year, Secretary Kerry spoke of important, though not irreversible, progress that has already been made. We welcome the Foreign Secretary’s statement of support for this process, but will he set out what specific steps the British Government are taking to ensure that negotiations are urgently begun as part of Secretary Kerry’s efforts?
These negotiations take place at a time of great upheaval and uncertainty in the wider region. We welcome the election of President Rohani, but there are key steps he must now be prepared to take if the ongoing nuclear crisis is to be resolved. I echo the sentiments expressed by the Foreign Secretary: a nuclear-armed Iran is not simply a threat to Israel, but a risk to all nations. The Government will have our support in pushing the E5 plus 1 talks that have regrettably so far not yielded sufficient progress.
In conclusion, the Foreign Secretary’s statement comes at a time of almost unprecedented uncertainty across the middle east and north Africa. This transformative time of upheaval, revolution and conflict poses fundamental questions not just for the Foreign Secretary, but for policy makers across the region. That should therefore add to the urgency of efforts being made to try to resolve the ongoing and apparently intractable conflicts that have for too long defined the history of the region.
Mr Hague
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. On most if not all these subjects, there is strong agreement across the Floor of the House.
I absolutely agree with the way in which the right hon. Gentleman put the Opposition’s attitude on Egypt. What has happened may be a setback for democracy, but it need not be an irreversible trend. That is absolutely right. He is right to point out that some parties in Egypt have not agreed to the timetable of parliamentary and presidential elections set out by the new president in the constitutional declaration. In fact, worryingly, most of them have not agreed, including the National Salvation Front, which was one of the prime movers behind last week’s events. There were widespread objections to the details of the announcement. As he said, this cannot be resolved in any other way than an inclusive legitimate process inside Egypt. We therefore call on all parties to do that.
It would be a terrible mistake for the authorities in Egypt to act in a way that drives the Muslim Brotherhood, or any other legitimate party, out of democratic politics. That mistake must be avoided at all costs. It would also be a mistake, however, for the Muslim Brotherhood to now refuse, under all circumstances, to take part in democratic politics in the months and years ahead. All nations who hold dear the stability and future of Egypt, as we do, have to encourage people, whether the Muslim Brotherhood or the new authorities, to resolve these differences and counsel against making those mistakes. Part of that is about releasing prisoners. I agree about that and I made that point to the acting Foreign Minister of Egypt. The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire, pursued the point with the Egyptian ambassador just this morning. Prisoners should be released unless criminal charges are to be laid. The holding of prisoners for political purposes after these events does not help the process.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about the Deauville partnership. I am happy to provide to him, or to the Library, more details. The $38 billion was not a fund, but the total financing from all global institutions available to the countries of the region if and when they pursue economic policies that give them access to it. One of the problems of the outgoing Government in Egypt was that they did not agree an IMF programme, and therefore did not win international financial support. The part of the Deauville partnership that involves funds that can be given away is much smaller. We have been determined, during our presidency of the G8, to make a tangible difference, and this year the Deauville partnership transition fund has started to deliver practical support. Projects of more than $100 million have been approved, and these principally support the development of small and medium-sized enterprises. This is the part that is a fund, but potential international financing is vastly greater, if the right economic reforms are undertaken.
I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s comments on Iran. Again, I think there is strong agreement across the House and support for a further round of E3 plus 3 negotiations with its new Government. There is also strong agreement on the middle east peace process. I have set out in the House previously that we have to be ready, in the UK and in other European countries, once negotiations get going, to offer incentives or even disincentives at times during the negotiations for Israelis and Palestinians to try to make them a success, working with the United States. First, we have to get the negotiations going. We have been urging Israeli and Palestinian leaders to take the opportunity to work with John Kerry, stressing that there is no alternative. No one other than the United States has the necessary authority to bring Israel to the necessary agreements, to enter negotiations and make a success of them. Working with John Kerry is essential, and we await further announcements in the coming weeks.
On Syria and a date for Geneva, there is no date at the moment. After the G8, a trilateral meeting was held between the US, Russia and the UN in Geneva on 25 June, which again did not produce a date. The fundamental problem is that while the regime is engaged in military offences, as it is now in Homs, it does not have an incentive to come to meaningful negotiations, and neither is the opposition in a frame of mind to come to negotiations. Those military offences are making it harder for either party to come to Geneva.
Jordan was not an omission from my statement—I referred to our humanitarian assistance. I have also referred in the past to the other assistance we are giving Jordan. We have sent military equipment to help the Jordanian armed forces operate on the border, collecting refugees and bringing them to refugee camps. We have £1.5 million going to Jordan through our Arab Partnership fund to support civil society. We are in regular contact with Jordan. I spoke to the Jordanian Foreign Minister earlier this week, in particular to thank him for Jordan’s assistance with the recent mutual legal assistance treaty. I also made it clear to him that we are happy to give further assistance from the UK, if the Jordanians ask for it.
Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con)
On Egypt, may I acquaint my right hon. Friend with the news that when I arrived as a national serviceman in the charming town of Suez 64 years ago, its townspeople were busy rioting against the Wafd party. Sixty-four years from now, I have little doubt that the Egyptian people will still be rioting, so may I make the constructive suggestion to the Foreign Secretary that there is little he can do to help, except by not sending in British troops to restore order?
Mr Hague
It does indeed bear out the wisdom of experience.
We will not be sending in troops. We must stress that the vast majority of what we are calling for can only be brought about by Egyptians—we must not pretend anything else—but what we and other countries say does matter; how we are prepared to help in the future matters. We have to make those things clear to the Egyptians, even though it certainly does not involve the deployment of British troops.
Mr Speaker
It is clear that the Foreign Secretary is familiar with the right hon. Gentleman’s CV in 1955, as well as, I am sure, with his activities 64 years ago.
Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)
Contrary to the distinguished, but dismal prognosis of the Father of the House, would the Secretary of State accept that across Africa remarkable progress has been made in recent decades to produce democracies? One thing that will set that back is if the west appears to be equivocal about the results of elections when it does not approve of those who are elected. This was a military coup, and we will gain nothing—indeed, we will undermine our influence—if we do not accept that. If we do not accept it, we will simply feed those extremists on the Islamic side who believe that we regard democracy as an optional extra only when those elected are people of whom we approve.
Mr Hague
I have a lot of sympathy with those points. Half of the 10 fastest-growing economies in the world are now in Africa. There is economic success, and many democracies are becoming established, which is to be welcomed and respected. That is why I was clear last Wednesday night that the United Kingdom does not support military interventions in democratic politics. We should always be prepared to state that clearly, I think, and to state what I just said in response to the shadow Foreign Secretary: that the Muslim Brotherhood must not be driven out of democratic politics in Egypt, or any other country. I think that across the House we can uphold those things very strongly.
Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)
I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s statement. The faltering peace process remains the best hope for the people of Syria. If, as he says, Iran is implicated in that conflict, is it not now essential to reach out to the new regime of Dr Rouhani and involve Iran in the Syrian peace process, including Geneva 2? Doing otherwise is beginning to look unhelpfully dogmatic.
Mr Hague
The hon. Gentleman is right about the importance of Iran, given the scale of its intervention in Syria. The extent to which it can be involved in a peace process will be heavily up to Iran, however; it has not, hitherto, expressed support for the outcome of last year’s Geneva conference and the creation of a transitional Government with full executive authority. Without agreeing with that, it is very hard to see how a success can be made of participation in negotiations over the coming months. Of course, however, those negotiations have to be conducted in circumstances that will produce the maximum success, and a judgment about how Iran can be involved must be guided by that objective.
Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)
I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s commitment that any decision either to arm the opposition or to intervene militarily will be put to the House on a substantive motion, but does he intend that to happen not, as with Libya, after the decision has been activated, but before?
Mr Hague
That is clearly the intention of what I said, although I do not think it right to compare this situation with Libya or ever to give a 100% guarantee. After all, in Libya we acted very urgently to save lives; armoured columns were advancing on Benghazi. We could not have taken that action with France had we had to wait however many hours to call the House together. It is not possible to give 100% guarantees, but on a question such as the supply of arms to someone else in world, it is possible to anticipate that and therefore to debate it in advance.
Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that although, as the former Foreign Secretary said, the prognosis in Egypt is gloomy, it was always going to take generations to fix the difficult social and political situation there? Does he also agree that, contrary to what the Father of the House said, this country has a major role to play in assisting many countries in the middle east with governance, improving opportunities and aspirations for their people and perhaps training young people so that they can get what everyone all over the world wants, which is jobs and some security?
Mr Hague
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right that we have a big role to play, and the European Union, using its collective economic weight, potentially has a big role to play as well. As I said earlier, although we must never pretend that these matters can be sorted out by anybody other than Egyptians, we must not understate what we can do to assist. After all, British companies are the biggest investors in Egypt, and there are myriad family, business and personal connections between the people of Egypt and the people of the United Kingdom. We must not understate our influence, therefore; what we do can help, and what we say matters.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
My right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander), the Foreign Secretary and President Obama all expressed regret at the military intervention in Egypt, but the special envoy for the Quartet on the middle east suggested that it was inevitable, that they had no alternative. I realise that the Foreign Secretary has been very busy, but has he had an opportunity to discuss those remarks with the special envoy?
Mr Hague
The special envoy, the former Prime Minister from the hon. Lady’s party, does not have to clear with the Foreign Secretary of the day everything he says. I am not sure he would ever have cleared it with the Foreign Secretary of his own Government—perhaps the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) can tell us—and he certainly does not clear it with the Foreign Secretary of the next Government, who are opposing parties to his. That would be hoping for too much. I put things differently from him, as she noted—
Mr Hague
So did the right hon. Gentleman, and so did several others from time to time.
We have to acknowledge that there was enormous dissatisfaction in Egypt with the record of the Government and therefore that what happened last week was very popular in Egypt. Nevertheless, we should be clear, as we discussed a few moments ago, that we cannot support military interventions in democratic processes.
Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)
The lesson emerging from the middle east is that leaders who introduce reform are grudgingly winning the respect of their people, and no one is trying harder on this than the King of Jordan, who is busting a gut to stay ahead of the curve. Will the Foreign Secretary assure me that he is doing everything he can to help the King introduce the constitutional monarchy that he is proposing, and does he agree that, ironically and unexpectedly, monarchs are emerging as beacons of stability in the region?
Mr Hague
My hon. Friend makes a good point: it has turned out that monarchs enjoy greater legitimacy with their populations than many alternative Heads of State, which is always a thing to remember—it is perhaps the lesson of our history in the United Kingdom as well. We are seeing very sincere, very substantial reform programmes put forward by the King of Jordan, and also overseen by the King of Morocco. We discuss these things regularly with His Majesty the King of Jordan; I discussed them with him when he was in the UK a couple of weeks ago. We are always ready to assist with the advice, expertise and assistance I have described. There is no cap on the amount of advice, expertise or assistance we can give, if requested.
Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)
Like many others, I am really worried that the message is going out to the moderate Muslim world that the west is standing by and watching the military overthrow of a democratically elected Government. The Foreign Secretary’s colleague in Turkey, Ahmet Davutoglu, has said:
“It is unacceptable for a government, which has come to power through democratic elections, to be toppled through illicit means and even more, a military coup.”
The Foreign Secretary knows that language matters in these circumstances. Will he join his Turkish colleague in recognising that this has been a military coup, and use that language?
Mr Hague
I have already done that in some of the interviews that I have given and made it clear. I have also discussed the issue in detail with my colleague, Ahmet Davutoglu, who is extremely concerned about it. I simply add the rider that we also have to understand that it was a popular intervention or coup—however we want to describe it. That does not mean that that is the right way to proceed, but it does mean that we have to think about and give good counsel on how the various parties work together in Egypt now. Whatever happens and whatever the opinion in the rest of the world, what has happened is not going to be reversed by military intervention, so however great our disapproval, we now have to encourage all concerned in Egypt into democratic processes—a constitution agreed by consensus, protecting human rights, making the economic progress that the country desperately needs.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
May I warmly welcome the assurance that the Foreign Secretary has given that no lethal support will be supplied to the Syrian opposition without a prior vote in Parliament, as I welcome a similar assurance previously given by the Leader of the House, of which I was not aware until recently? However, may I remind the Foreign Secretary that, by coincidence, tomorrow we have a debate led by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) on that very subject? May we therefore presume that if the House divides tomorrow, Ministers will be voting for the motion, rather than just sitting on their hands?
Mr Hague
My hon. Friend may find that most Ministers are elsewhere tomorrow, so I am unable to say what most of them will do, but the Government have made their position clear, and the House is able to make its position clear as well. The Government having already done so, we do not see the need to vote for—or, in this case, against—a motion of that kind.
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the continual, covert and creeping redefinition of borders by the Israelis, whereby, for example, one family are allowed to live in their house because the house is defined as being in the west bank, but not to use the balcony because it is defined as being in Jerusalem, while another family are allowed to live in their house, but not to use the toilet because the toilet is defined as being not in the west bank but in Jerusalem? Does he agree that this continual, tyrannical oppression, which makes people’s daily lives an utter misery, is not conducive to any kind of peace negotiations that will result in freedom for the Palestinians and a secure Israel?
Mr Hague
It is the advance of settlements on occupied land that makes the return to negotiations in the middle east peace process so urgent. Those settlements are illegal, as well as creating many anomalies, including the kind that the right hon. Gentleman describes. On my recent visit to the west bank, I visited families whose homes had been demolished. I went to see the E1 area, which is of enormous importance in determining whether a viable, contiguous Palestinian state can be created. I think our views in this House on this issue are well expressed, and that is how we have also expressed them at the United Nations Security Council, which underlines the urgency of getting both parties into negotiations.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
What hopes does my right hon. Friend have that the Syrian opposition, especially the al-Nusra Front, can achieve its aim of providing a “free, democratic and pluralistic” Syria that defends the rights of all Syrians after the demise of the Assad regime?
Mr Hague
We cannot look to the al-Nusra Front to provide a free, democratic or pluralistic Syria. There are extremist forces, but they are not the majority of people who are fighting for the opposition and certainly not of the people who simply want to see peace, dignity and prosperity for their country and a change of Government in Damascus. I think my hon. Friend should be able to trust the sincerity of the National Coalition, now with its expanded membership and new leadership, which includes many secular figures and minorities from across Syria. I have found in all my meetings with them that their commitment to a democratic, non-sectarian Syria is credible and sincere.
Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)
As a secular, western politician, my instinctive sympathies were obviously with the people in Tahrir square, both in 2011 and recently. However, does the Foreign Secretary agree that it is all the more important that we reject the strictures of those who say that Islamic politics is one dimensional, that the Muslim Brotherhood are the same as jihadis and that there are not even divisions in the Muslim Brotherhood? I support him in saying that if we say to Islamists who have turned to democracy that there is no place for them on that road, we commit a very serious error.
Mr Hague
I agree with that absolutely, and it was well put by the hon. Gentleman. That will be important not only in Egypt, but in Libya, Tunisia and many other countries as well. It is important to have a sophisticated enough understanding to see that there are many, many different shades of opinion. We should be clear enough in our principles to welcome participation in democratic procedures and to uphold those over time, so I agree with him.
Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)
Britain has always condemned ethnic cleansing, wherever it takes place around the world. Will the Foreign Secretary therefore condemn the Israeli Parliament for its vote to evict 40,000 Bedouin from their ancestral homelands?
Mr Hague
We do not agree with decisions about removals of Bedouin people. Indeed, on my recent visit to the occupied territories, I also visited a Bedouin encampment—to illustrate this point—and I met some of the Bedouin. Their original land was in the Negev desert; they have since moved into areas of the west bank. We want to see those people—this is one of the reasons we want to see the middle east peace process taken forward—have their own clear rights and their own places where they can live. [Interruption.] I am not going to add further language to what the Government have said at this delicate time in bringing the peace negotiations about, but I think my hon. Friend can see very clearly where we stand.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
The Foreign Secretary was right to express his concerns about the involvement of Hezbollah in the Syrian conflict and elsewhere across the middle east. However, given that investigations in Bulgaria and Cyprus have uncovered evidence of Hezbollah activity in Europe, what conversations is he having with his EU counterparts about the proscription of Hezbollah in the European Union?
Mr Hague
I have been having a lot of conversations about that. There have been some differences of view around the EU, but I think we have made some progress on it. There will be further discussions this month—we are coming up to a meeting of EU Foreign Ministers in 12 days’ time. I cannot say that the issue will be resolved then, but there will be further discussions in or around that meeting. I will continue to advocate the designation of the military wing of Hezbollah. There has to be a clear consequence and a clear price exacted by European countries for terrorist acts on European soil.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
On Syria, the Secretary of State will be aware of paragraph 87 of the G8 communiqué, which made it quite clear that all the countries were committed to supporting a UN mission to Syria to see whether chemical weapons had been used. How far away are we from having that mission in Syria? Has Russia, having been party to that communiqué, made a representation to the Syrian authorities to allow that mission to go ahead? Finally, when there is a mission and a finding, does the Foreign Secretary understand whether Russia, having been party to the process, will accept the findings of that report and any further action to be proposed by the United Nations?
Mr Hague
My hon. Friend raises an important point. We continue to press for the United Nations mission to have access to all the necessary places in Syria, in order to make the evaluation about the alleged use of chemical weapons. As we have said, we have certainly seen substantial evidence of their use by the regime. The Assad regime has not given permission for access to the relevant places, so at the moment that mission is stalled. Yes, we have discussed that, and my hon. Friend is right to say that important language was used at the G8 on this matter. We have been discussing with Russia and others on the United Nations Security Council how to proceed on this, and we will continue to ask for Russia’s help to ensure that there can be access to the relevant places.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Does the Foreign Secretary agree that, in a region in turmoil, the biggest single threat to world peace is Iran’s potential development of a nuclear weapon? It is widely accepted that Iran has enriched uranium beyond the 3.5% necessary for civilian nuclear use. What knowledge does he have that Iran could be developing a plan B involving plutonium at its Arak nuclear facility, the heavy water section of which has been off limits to inspectors for the past 18 months?
Mr Hague
My hon. Friend is also right to raise this matter. Great concern has been expressed, including by the International Atomic Energy Authority, about the heavy water plant at Arak. That is one of the aspects of Iran’s nuclear programme to which the IAEA wants greater access. The President-elect, Mr Rouhani, has said that he is committed to transparency in Iran’s nuclear programme. One way to demonstrate that would be to be transparent about this issue; otherwise, the world will become increasingly alarmed in exactly the way that my hon. Friend has described.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
The sooner Egypt is able to restore stability and democracy, the sooner it will be able to exert a positive influence in the middle east. Does the Secretary of State therefore agree that, while we disapprove of the military intervention, now is not the time for the UK or any other nation to withdraw aid and support, as the Egyptians try to resolve their difficulties?
Mr Hague
That is right; we will not withdraw from the Arab Partnership work that we are doing with Egypt and other countries, for example. However, reforming the Egyptian economy, reinforcing the rule of law, tackling corruption and making it more attractive for international companies to invest in Egypt, as well as agreeing a programme with the IMF, would allow a great deal more assistance to flow to Egypt. Egypt has had financial support from Qatar, and has now apparently been offered financial support from Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, but if it is to build a sustainable economy and get more assistance from the rest of the world, it needs to put its own economic house in order.
Points of Order
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I hope that the Foreign Secretary will stay in the Chamber for this point of order. I think that you will agree that we had the most heated and emotional Prime Minister’s questions of the Session this afternoon. The emotion might carry us all along, but there are lines that you insist we must not cross. It has been reported by those who were present, by people watching at home and by the press that the Foreign Secretary, in response to a question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson), twice shouted the words “stupid woman”. I know the Foreign Secretary to be a man who has done great good in his job, and I would hope that, if this report is true, he is already regretting those comments. Would it be appropriate, Mr Speaker, for you to give him an opportunity now to apologise, to ensure that his reputation and that of this place is not damaged by such behaviour?
Mr Speaker
I note the hon. Lady’s point of order. The Foreign Secretary is present, and he is entitled to respond if he wishes to do so, but he is not obliged to do so.
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I mutter many things in this House; others shout them rather louder than I do. I mutter many things under my breath, but I never intend any offence to any other hon. Member.
Mr Speaker
I note what the right hon. Gentleman has said, and I thank him for it. We will leave that there for today.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In spite of your valiant and heroic efforts to improve the conduct in the Chamber and the standing of Parliament outside this place, we hit a new low today. Prime Minister’s Question Time was an unedifying spectacle of distortion, evasion and obfuscation. May I again suggest that you hold a seminar, especially for the Prime Minister, in order to explain the precise meaning of the words “question” and “answer”, and the need for a link between the two?
Mr Speaker
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. Today, it will suffice for me to say that I thought it was a very unedifying spectacle. It was as noisy as, if not more noisy than, I have ever known it. I ask right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber, as I have done many times over the years, to give some thought to the way in which our proceedings are regarded by the people outside this House whose support we seek and whom we are here to represent. Frankly, the behaviour of a very large number of people was poor, as the hon. Gentleman has indicated. Rather than dwelling on it further today, let us aspire, and take steps at all levels, to ensure that it improves in subsequent weeks. That is a responsibility of every right hon. and hon. Member, from the person most recently arrived to the longest serving Member, and from those who serve in a Back-Bench capacity to those who serve at the highest level, either in government or in opposition.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have given the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland notice that I will be raising this point of order. Earlier today in Northern Ireland questions, I raised an issue about what she would be doing as a result of the outrageous and scandalous decision last night of the Parades Commission in Northern Ireland. That decision is causing enormous pain and tension to rise in north Belfast and across the Province, and there is the potential for severe trouble on our streets. In replying to my question, the Secretary of State did not address the point about her powers in relation to an application by the Chief Constable. I have to say, Mr Speaker, that in my view that was deliberately deceptive. It was absolutely outrageous, and it will not go down well with the people back home. The Secretary of State has a responsibility to do something about the outrageous decisions of the Parades Commission in Northern Ireland—
Mr Speaker
Order. I thank the right hon. Gentleman. It is only with great hesitation that I interrupt him, because he is a senior and respected Member of the House. However, while giving expression to his views, he must not use the words “deliberately deceptive”. He must not use those words. He is a man of great intelligence and vocabulary, and I must ask him to use an alternative formulation—or, at any rate, to withdraw those words.
Mr Speaker
Order. No, no; I cannot have a conditional withdrawal from the right hon. Gentleman. It is open to the Secretary of State to come to the Dispatch Box if she so wishes, and I will afford her that opportunity, but those words must be considered in their own terms. I am not cavilling at anything else that the right hon. Gentleman has said, but I must ask him to withdraw those words. It is very clear that they are disorderly, and I must ask him to withdraw them and to use alternative words—or to use no alternative words but still to withdraw them.
Mr Dodds
Mr Speaker, the situation in Northern Ireland today is extremely difficult and tense, and I have to say that people are very concerned about what might happen. For the Secretary of State to spend an entire Question Time without referring to her powers in this matter is unforgiveable, and it cannot be glossed over.
Mr Speaker
Order. I do not seek to gloss over anything, and I am sure that the Secretary of State does not, but I must say to the hon. Gentleman with great courtesy that he has now twice failed to withdraw the words that were disorderly, which I have most courteously asked him to withdraw. I must warn the right hon. Gentleman—it pains me to do this—that if he persists in his refusal to comply with my order to withdraw, I shall be compelled to name him, which I do not wish to do. I please ask the right hon. Gentleman, who has made his point, to which the Secretary of State will have an opportunity to reply if she wishes, simply to take back those particular words. I am not asking him to withdraw his whole contribution; he must withdraw the words “deliberately deceptive”. It is not appropriate to accuse any Member of this House of seeking deliberately to deceive or mislead it. The right hon. Gentleman will please withdraw those words now.
Mr Dodds
Mr Speaker, I have yet to hear any explanation from the Secretary of State as to why that glaring omission was made in relation to these important matters. I feel that on a matter of such import and importance, I am reluctantly not able to comply on this occasion. I stand over what I said, and I have to say that the people of Northern Ireland are in a very serious position indeed. The Secretary of State needs to do something to intervene in this matter, and she needs to do it quickly.
Mr Speaker
I made it clear, and I hope the House will accept that it was appropriate to do so, but I cannot engage in negotiation with colleagues whereby they agree to withdraw something if someone else does or does not do something. Therefore, very regretfully, after a display, I hope, of some patience and the proffering to the right hon. Gentleman of a number of opportunities to make good, I am forced to act.
The Speaker ordered Mr Dodds, Member for Belfast North, to withdraw immediately from the House during the remainder of this day’s sitting (Standing Order No. 43), and the Member withdrew accordingly.
Mr Speaker
The Secretary of State was referred to several times in those comments, so I simply extend to the Secretary of State what I think is the courtesy of inviting her to comment if she wishes to do so, but she is under no obligation to do so.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
I am happy to do so. I fully appreciate the strength of feeling of the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), given the involvement of his constituency in the events of the forthcoming weekend. He will appreciate from the conversation that he and I had this morning that any powers I have to intervene to review the decision of the Parades Commission are triggered only as a result of an application by the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, and I have not received such an application. If I did so, I would of course consider the exercise of my powers with the greatest care.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker
The hon. Gentleman is certainly a man of integrity, so I am happy to hear his point and judge whether it is legitimate to continue with it.
Mr Campbell
Given what has happened and in the light of the Secretary of State’s response, I wondered whether, within the context of the next 48 hours, she will ensure that the extreme frustration that has been exhibited today—I do not in any way challenge your ruling, Mr Speaker—is not played out on the streets of Belfast and Northern Ireland on Friday. We must maintain the rule of law and respect the integrity of all those involved in talks so that we can try to dissolve and devolve the position in Northern Ireland to a problem-solving exercise in which violence is avoided and people respect each other’s rights.
Mr Speaker
This is a very sensitive week leading up to 12 July, and I think that we are all conscious of, and respectful towards, that fact. The hon. Gentleman’s point is on the record, and I know that he will not take offence if I say that it is not a point of order for the Chair. He has registered his concerns and they have been noted.
If the point of order appetite has now been satisfied, perhaps we can proceed with the presentation of a Bill.
Bill Presented
Local Government (Miscellaneous provisions) Act 1982 (Amendment) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Dan Rogerson, supported by Martin Caton, presented a Bill to amend the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1982 to require those providing a service from a fixed pitch in a designated area to apply for a licence to trade; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 6 September, and to be printed (Bill 89).
Slavery
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the Secretary of State to take steps to eradicate slavery; and for connected purposes.
I must make it clear right from the beginning that I am not talking about being a Back-Bench Tory Member under the current whipping system. That is not what I mean by modern-day slavery, which is a much more serious offence.
My Bill would include, subject to debate, scrutiny and change in this House, the following provisions. First, it would include the consolidation and simplification of existing legislation under one Act. At present, trafficking offences are contained in three separate pieces of legislation: the Sexual Offences Act 2003, the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc.) Act 2004, and the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. This makes the legislation contrasting rather than complementary. It also serves to maintain the widely held misunderstanding of modem slavery as primarily an immigration—not a criminal—problem. Bringing all modem slavery and human trafficking offences under one Act would address the current confusion and misunderstanding in the justice system. Moreover, the symbolic message of enacting these provisions under the title “Modem Slavery Act” would itself help to raise the profile of modem slavery and send a clear message, domestically and internationally, that the UK takes this issue very seriously.
Secondly, I propose legislation for an “Anti-Slavery Rapporteur”. As an anti-EU Tory, of course, I could not possibly bring myself to call it that, so why do we not suggest “Commissioner” instead? Modelled on the Children’s Commissioner for England, the Anti-Slavery Commissioner would be statutorily obliged and empowered to represent the interests of victims of modem slavery, and in doing so, would fulfil the role of “critical friend” to the Government.
At present, the Government maintain that the Inter-Departmental Ministerial Group on Human Trafficking is equivalent to a national rapporteur and therefore fulfils the UK’s obligations in this respect under article 19. However, the group fails in this regard. I would argue that it is not possible for a group of Government Ministers to carry out this role: Ministers have many other competing responsibilities and can devote only a limited amount of time to this issue. The group meets only every six months and is often subject to change at reshuffles. Who knows, by the end of next week, we may have a new set of Ministers to deal with.
In addition, attendance at meetings is less than 50% and at the most recent meeting, apart from the Chairman, only two Ministers were present—a Minister for Wales and a Minister for Scotland—with seven Ministers giving their apologies. An Anti-Slavery Commissioner could replace the Inter-Departmental Ministerial Group, be more effective and cost less money.
Thirdly, the Bill would provide for duties on local authorities for the provision of support to adult and child victims. Imagine that a 25-year-old woman from a small village in Moldova has been offered an escape from poverty via a job in the UK working as a waitress, providing a chance to earn some money to send back to her family and provide family members as well as herself with a better quality of life. She arrives in London, but it becomes clear after a while that there never was a legitimate job opportunity. Her “contact” confiscates her passport and locks her in a room where she is beaten and repeatedly raped, and then sold into slavery as a prostitute. She is unable to escape her traffickers. After a few weeks, months, or even years, she is eventually found and rescued by the local police.
The Government currently fund a specialist support programme run by the Salvation Army, which has a network of subcontracted safe shelters. The system of care for adult trafficked victims is very good in the UK—so impressive that the Government have doubled their funding from £1.5 million last year to £3 million this year, despite the austerity. These safe houses offer adult victims the deserved chance to begin a recovery from the horrific mental, physical and emotional damage that they have experienced at the hands of traffickers. These victims have witnessed unimaginable horrors, yet are given an opportunity to be brought back to life.
Now imagine a 15-year-old girl from a small village in Moldova who has been trafficked into the United Kingdom; these stories have the same beginning and middle, but their endings are very different. The girl is enslaved—beaten and raped on a daily basis. She lives in constant fear of her captors, yet is totally dependent on them, with no way to escape.
The police discover the trafficking ring of which the girl is part. She is taken in by the local authority and put into social care as a “missing child”. However, she is given no special care and is not even identified as a victim of trafficking, and the home she is in is not secure. The traffickers know where she is and soon she disappears from care—trafficked back into her living hell, to be beaten and raped once more.
I find it almost impossible to believe that we can stand by and allow such a scandalous situation to continue for one moment longer. We must enact a solution to this outrageous state of affairs in the quickest possible manner. We must address the disparity in care between adult and child victims. We must provide child victims safe and secure homes that will offer them the same level of care and support that adult victims receive. Furthermore, child victims need to be identified and recorded as such by local authorities—a move that would certainly incur no extra cost, but would make a huge difference to the plight of the victims.
Although both the cases I have described are obviously horrific, by the nature of things the magnitude of damage caused to a child victim of trafficking is likely to be significantly greater. It is shameful that we have established, and continue to permit, a system that allows such children to be re-trafficked with such ease. We must learn from the examples of other countries such as the Philippines, which provides safe houses run by local non-governmental organisations and charities, partly funded by the state and designed specifically for the recovery of child victims and their integration back into society.
The fourth purpose of my Bill relates to the non-prosecution of victims. The Court of Appeal recently overturned the convictions of four victims of trafficking who had been prosecuted for crimes committed as a result of trafficking. Three were Vietnamese children forced to work in cannabis farms and one was a woman forced into sexual exploitation. Protection rights for victims are not set out in legislation; they are only in Crown Prosecution Service guidance. It is vital that that discrepancy be addressed. My Bill would bring in the presumption that victims of trafficking should not be prosecuted for crimes committed as a result of their being trafficked.
The Bill will also include clauses about several other issues: the return of foreign-national trafficking victims to their country of origin and their safe integration back into society; a duty to trace and confiscate traffickers’ assets; a requirement for large businesses to report on measures that they are taking to eliminate modern slavery from their supply chains; and a requirement for front-line public servants to receive targeted training relating to human trafficking.
There is a general public and political awareness of the horrific nature of modern-day slavery in the UK and across Europe, but it is not at the top of any Government’s political agenda. Although our Prime Minister has done a lot to improve the situation, having brought in a human trafficking strategy, set up an annual report, had a debate in Parliament, opened exhibitions and opened up Downing street, and although we are moving in the right direction, the British Government must be prepared to stand up to the individuals who perpetrate such evil crimes. They must take the lead on this most crucial of issues, as they did almost 200 years ago.
In 1833, the consequences of the Slavery Abolition Act reverberated around the world.
“You may choose to look the other way but you can never again say that you did not know.”
Those were the words of William Wilberforce in May 1789. I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Ordered,
That Mr Peter Bone, Angie Bray, Mr Christopher Chope, Tracey Crouch, Mr Philip Hollobone, Jeremy Lefroy, Peter Luff, Fiona Mactaggart, Greg Mulholland, Stephen Phillips, Jim Shannon and Keith Vaz present the Bill.
Mr Peter Bone accordingly presented the Bill.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday, 8 November and to be printed (Bill 90).
Opposition Day
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Disabled People
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
17:34 - The House divided: - Ayes: 227 / Noes: 296 - Question accordingly negatived.
17:49 - The House divided: - Ayes: 293 / Noes: 226 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Mr Speaker
I advise the House that I have selected the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister.
Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House believes that the Government should publish, by October 2013, a cumulative impact assessment of the changes made by the Government that affect disabled people.
Five of my right hon. Friends and I have tabled the words of today’s motion, but the words in our argument were inspired by others and are supported by tens of thousands of people up and down this country.
This afternoon, I pay tribute to Pat Onions and her fellow campaigners, to the authors of the WOW petition and to the thousands of people up and down the country who have supported their campaign and will follow this debate closely. They want to send a message to the Government—the message that we have incorporated in our motion. Today we ask hon. Members on both sides of the House to support us and make sure that the message is heard, not just in the Department for Work and Pensions but in Her Majesty’s Treasury, as clearly as possible.
The Opposition believe that how the Government have systematically ignored and tried to disguise and bury the impact of their reforms on disabled people is a national scandal. Reform that should have been approached with care and finesse has been approached with all the finesse of a bull in a china shop. When people have cried about the combined pain of the changes, the Government’s response has been that of the three wise monkeys: see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. Frankly, we demand better of Her Majesty’s Government.
Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
My right hon. Friend is making his position clear with great power and pugnaciousness. Is it not already clear that the chaos around the work capability assessment and the implementation of the personal independence payment is widespread? In the House last year, I cited dozens of cases of disabled people from my constituency who had awful experiences of revolving assessments. Is it not appalling that so many people are going through that process when almost a third of people are winning their appeals at tribunals?
Mr Byrne
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I shall come back to his point slightly later.
The Opposition believe in reform of the benefits system and of support and care for disabled people, but we also believe in one thing more—that fewer, not more, disabled people should live in poverty in this country. During our time in office, we drove down the number of disabled people living in poverty from 40% to about a quarter. That was not an accident; it was because of the most ambitious series of reforms to help disabled people that we have ever seen.
There was the appointment of the first ever Minister for Disabled People, the Disability Discrimination Act and the Equality and Human Rights Commission. There were great programmes such as Supporting People, the new deal for disabled people, new strategies for disabled children and Valuing People, and, crucially, there was the Equality Act 2010. Poverty in disabled households fell under Labour and now that progress has gone into reverse.
Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)
There is a fundamental difference in how the reforms have been heralded in the media, too. When we were in government and we put those reforms through, we did so in a careful and considered way, whereas because of how the current reforms are being pushed through, the media are characterising people in certain ways. A constituent who is on disability benefit for severe mental health problems came to my office the other day with his head in his hands saying, “I know I’m scum. That’s what I read every day. That’s the way I feel I’m treated.”
Mr Byrne
The whole House will have heard my hon. Friend’s powerful story. I am afraid that too often in the past three years we have had not the politics of national unity, but the politics of dividing lines—dividing lines after dividing lines. When has this country ever achieved great things when we have sought to divide one from another? We have only ever achieved great things in this country when we have pulled together, but I am afraid that that is not the policy of reform we see from this Government.
Today we have one third of disabled citizens in our country living in poverty. That proportion has increased every single year this coalition Government have been in power. That is a disgrace, and it is only surpassed by the Government’s attempts to make it worse.
Today I want to set out the great pressures that now confront disabled people and ask, in the words of our motion, that the Government, for the first time, put together
“a cumulative impact assessment of the changes”,
because the Secretary of State has an important duty to fulfil later this year. He has a duty before the autumn statement to set before the Chancellor of the Exchequer the combined concerted impact of the changes he is prosecuting on disabled people. These changes are big and they are well known. They affect the roof over people’s heads, the cash they receive, the care they enjoy, the help for their children and the help for their carers, and, of course, the systems that are currently failing to give disabled people the chance to lift themselves out of poverty by actually going to work.
Let me start with an issue that I know will be much in the news today: the hated bedroom tax. Two thirds of people hit by this tax are disabled. We know that council housing in this country is allocated according to need, and very often disabled people are given accommodation that is suited to their need. They may have a room that is available for a carer or for equipment, but the accommodation they were given was allocated according to need. Now disabled people face a tax on that spare room. Disabled people now face the distress of debt, being torn from their neighbours, and cut off from help very often if they are on disability living allowance. This is a cruel and unusual punishment meted out to the most vulnerable in our society, and this Government should drop it, and drop it now.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Government knew when they first introduced this tax that it would have this disproportionate and devastating effect on disabled people? Originally they had hoped to exempt them from the tax, but when they worked out how many would be affected, they simply buried their principles in the interests of expediency.
Mr Byrne
That evidence is now becoming well known, and we have had more evidence circulated by great organisations, such as Carers UK today, about the impact this tax is now having on some of the most vulnerable people in our community, including hundreds in the Minister’s constituency.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mr Mark Hoban)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr Byrne
In a moment. Perhaps when the Minister intervenes he can justify what Carers UK found:
“Three quarters (75%) of carers having to pay the ‘bedroom tax’ are being forced to cut back on essential spending on food, electricity and heating.”
Will the Minister justify that to the House?
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr Byrne
In a moment. What is the Minister going to say to councils up and down the country surveyed by Channel 4 for tonight’s broadcast showing that one third of councils are having to deny help to disabled people because the provision of the discretionary housing payment fund is, frankly, insufficient? What is he going to say to those councils and what is he going to say to those disabled people in his own constituency?
Mr Byrne
I will give way to the Secretary of State in a moment, but first I want him to respond to this scenario. His own figures show that 660,000 people will be hit by this hated tax. He said when he came to the House that this would save £490 million. Let us assume that 50% of the people who move go into the private rented sector. That is going to cost his Department an extra £25 a week each. Let us assume the rest get another form of social housing. Every single move costs a registered social landlord £850. Then there is the cost of arrears, which RSLs say will double. Then there is £160 million-worth of discretionary housing payment on top. The truth is that if 40% of people move, this could well cost our country £580 million, which is £100 million more than the Secretary of State promised to save. What is his analysis of that? Does he now admit this will cost more than it saves?
Mr Duncan Smith
The right hon. Gentleman’s leader said categorically, in terms, that Labour would not reverse the spare room subsidy. [Interruption.] Yes, he has, in an interview. Now, however, the Leader of the Opposition’s spokesman is standing at the Dispatch Box saying Labour will reverse this. That is a commitment to spend £1 billion over two years, rolling out further down the road. That is a spending commitment.
Mr Byrne
The Secretary of State has just refused to deny that this iniquitous policy is going to cost £100 million more than it saves. If he wants to refute that, why is he refusing to give our noble Friends in the other place the detailed model his Department used in order to assess this and come to the conclusion it was going to save £490 million? If he wants to have an argument about whether this does indeed cost more than it saves, he should provide that detailed analysis and those figures.
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
My right hon. Friend is making a crucial point about the cost of the bedroom tax, and I can provide him with some figures from Cardiff council. Since 1 April there are now 1,176 people in arrears and the council estimates that 900 of them have never been in arrears before. That is going to cost it £175,000 in additional costs, and its arrears bill has risen to £1.2 million, so the idea that this is going to save money is complete fantasy.
Mr Byrne
What is interesting about the Secretary of State’s response is that he cannot defend his Department’s failure, and he cannot defend his own failure of leadership in not giving us a cumulative impact assessment of these cuts because he fears what that will show. He fears it will show that this bedroom tax will cost more than it saves—and it is just one of a number of changes now coming together to hit disabled people, and hit them hard.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
Does my right hon. Friend agree on these two points? First, this dreadful tax is going to cost more than it saves. It is hitting 2,600 households in my constituency, and City West Housing is expecting arrears of at least £1 million this year. Even worse than that is the effect on choice and dignity: week in and week out, I am now seeing cases in which disabled people have to explain why they cannot sleep in the same bedroom as their carers. They are being assessed on the point of “Why can you not sleep in the same bedroom?” Last week I had a letter about some constituents which stated, “We see no reason why you cannot sleep in the same bedroom.” Case studies that Carers UK has provided to Members today, however, explain why for people with disabilities there is very often a really good reason why the carer cannot sleep in the same room or the same bed as the person they are caring for.
Mr Byrne
Absolutely, and that is why the Secretary of State must produce the impact assessment. All of us are now meeting people who are under such pressure that they are creating more cost elsewhere in the system. I will probably remember for ever the man I met recently in Redcar. The great Anna Turley introduced us, and this is what was said: “Yes, he has a spare room, and do you know what he puts in it? He puts equipment to help him with renal failure.” Now, because he is having to move, that opportunity for home care is disappearing, and the NHS is saying to him “We’re going to have to take you to and from hospital in an ambulance every single day.” That is not a cost saving for the NHS. That is a new cost. It is a straight cost jump from a failure of policy from this Government.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
I just wish to get this clear, so that there is no uncertainty: it is now the policy of a future Labour Government to reverse the bedroom tax. I, like the Secretary of State, was under the impression that the Leader of the Opposition had said that that was not the case. So will the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) provide clarification? Will the Labour party, if elected, abolish the bedroom tax?
Mr Speaker
Order. These points must be allowed to come out in debate, and right hon. and hon. Members can speak on their feet but not from their seats.
Mr Speaker
Order. We must proceed, on both sides, according to established rules of debate, which include taking interventions or choosing not to do so. A Member cannot intervene, however strongly he or she feels, if the person who has the Floor declines to give way.
Mr Byrne
I will give way to the Secretary of State in a moment, because I have a number of other points I want him to answer. The whole House would wish that he, and not the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban), was answering the debate, because it is his failure of leadership at the Department for Work and Pensions that means that disabled people in this country are in such trouble today.
Let me deal with the cash commitments that we need to move on to. The Secretary of State needs to listen to this, because he cannot pursue this agenda of denial right the way through this afternoon; the power of hon. Members’ contributions demands to be listened to. Let us just consider contributory employment and support allowance, a benefit that people have paid into for years. The Conservative party and, in particular, the Secretary of State, have never believed in the principle of contributory benefits. By the end of this Parliament, such benefits will be no more than a rounding error; 280,000 former workers will by 2014 have completely lost their entitlement to support worth £100 a week—thank heavens we won an exemption for cancer patients. The truth is that those with mental health conditions and stroke sufferers will be very hard hit by this change.
Let us then consider the idea that disability living allowance should be abolished and replaced by the personal independence payment. We believe that reform is important, and we welcome the Secretary of State’s more sensible roll-out plan, but surely it is wrong to take away someone’s DLA without even a passing glance at whether the removal of that benefit will push someone out of work, push them into the NHS or cause a carer to have to give up a job. We are talking about important safeguards that should have been written into the reform of DLA. And we now have the lunacy of a Government forced to consult on issues such as the 20-metre rule after—not before—they introduce the regulations, because they could not organise things properly. It is an utter shambles.
We welcome the idea of strong social care. I wish to pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) for the work that she has done and the way in which she has influenced the definition of well-being in the Care Bill, which is passing through the other place. DWP Ministers must know that one third of social care users are disabled adults, and we must avoid changes that take that system backwards rather than forwards.
There will be other changes that affect carers and children. Carers UK tells us that 3 million carers have had to give up work; one in five carers have seen their work badly affected by caring; and four out of 10 fall into debt. Yet, according to the Government’s own figures, botched reform to DLA could see another 10,000 carers lose support. Parents of disabled children will suffer, too. Parents of 100,000 disabled children will suffer from plans for universal credit. I understand from the Secretary of State’s performance before the Select Committee this morning that universal credit is now, after half a billion pounds-worth of spending, going to appear in the grand total of 10 jobcentres from October, which is about 1% of jobcentres. That is a tremendous success for the Secretary of State, topped only by his success in giving us a Work programme that is worse than doing nothing.
Families with disabled children currently receive an extra £54 per week from child tax credit, but that will be reduced by half when universal credit is introduced, which means a loss of about £1,400 a year for a family with a disabled child—or £22,000 over the course of a lifetime. The Prime Minister has told the House that
“we are not cutting benefits for disabled children.”—[Official Report, 14 December 2011; Vol. 537, c. 793.]
I think Channel 4 FactCheck got it right when it said that
“the dial points pretty firmly to fiction on this one”.
The tragedy is that so many disabled people want to work, want to get themselves out of poverty, and the Government will not help. A single person on disability benefits will be under the poverty line by about £600 a year. Even three hours’ work a week lifts a disabled person above the poverty line, and 30 hours’ work a week lifts them above the poverty line by about £5,000 a year. At the moment the situation is so chaotic that someone going along to a work capability assessment is eight times more likely to end up in a tribunal than in a job. As for the Work programme, words simply fail me. It took some doing, but the Government did it: they have produced a Work programme that is three times worse than doing nothing—and that is on their own figures.
Last year, the Chancellor of the Exchequer found the money to hand out a very nice tax cut—a very large tax cut—to some of Britain’s richest citizens. So this year we want to know: what is the Secretary of State going to ask the Chancellor for on behalf of disabled people? We think we should help him get the pitch right. The only way he can get that down accurately is by bringing forward a cumulative impact assessment of the changes now hitting disabled people. How else will he know what to ask for? How many people are losing their homes? How many are losing their DLA? How many are losing their homes, their DLA and their ESA? How many will lose carer’s allowance on top? And how many more disabled people will fall into poverty as a result of these sweeping changes over the next couple of years? Surely the Secretary of State cannot justify proceeding with these reforms blind. Surely he cannot go into negotiations with the Chancellor later in the year, before the autumn statement, oblivious to what is actually going on.
Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab)
My right hon. Friend may be aware of the work that Mind has done and the fact that about 40% of people applying for ESA are doing so because of a mental health problem. Work capability assessments are just not working, as we have all seen in our constituencies, and they need reforming.
Mr Byrne
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Of course the employment rate among people with a mental health condition is the lowest of all; it is a disgrace and it needs to change. At the moment, however, we do not have a system that actually assesses people’s needs at the same time as we assess what benefits they should be entitled to. There is a complete disconnection at the heart of the system. The point we want to make to the Secretary of State gently this afternoon is that he presides over one of the great Departments of state; about 100,000 civil servants work for him. If this country can organise an Olympic games, help put rockets into space and organise complex armed conflict abroad, he ought to be able to work out a cumulative impact assessment of the changes affecting disabled people.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Fareham, who has been forced to answer this debate, has, curiously enough, told the House the following:
“The Government regularly produces analysis of the cumulative impact of all coalition changes…The publication of cumulative impacts is a coalition initiative”.—[Official Report, 5 July 2013; Vol. 565, c. 862W.]
Labour Members welcome that. So can we please have a cumulative impact assessment of the changes hitting disabled people?
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that, historically, the Government party has always been against the welfare state? Successive Conservative Governments have tried to weaken the welfare state by making statements that are not really helpful to those who need it.
Mr Byrne
My hon. Friend is absolutely right about that, and, worst of all, what he describes comes with a nasty and divisive politics to boot.
If the Secretary of State needs any help with this job of producing cumulative impact assessments, plenty is on hand, as luck would have it. Let me read out the list of people who have half done the job for him: Demos, in its “Destination Unknown” pamphlet; Inclusion Scotland; the Campaign For a Fair Society; the Children’s Commissioner; Contact A Family; and The Hardest Hit. All those organisations have been able to produce cumulative impact assessments, and I am sure that if the Secretary of State asked them nicely, they would lend him a hand.
We believe that there must be vital reform in social security in the future, but that there must be a different way of organising reform. Someone in our country registers with the DWP as disabled every three minutes. The morality of this debate is very simple: disability is an issue that could affect any of us and is therefore something that affects us all. We should be learning from reform such as that pioneered by the Australian Labor party through comprehensive disability insurance, where one personal plan sets out a plan of action for benefits, back-to-work support, social care and help from the national health service and where one partnership comes together to deliver it.
I do not know how often the Secretary of State speaks to his opposite number in the Department of Health, but his right hon. Friend is taking through the other place a Care Bill that creates a definition of well-being that includes the idea that someone should be able to go to work and to get training and an education. The DWP is then missing from the rest of the Bill. The local authority and the NHS are obliged to talk to each other, but where is the DWP? Why is it not coming together with local councils and the NHS to deliver change? We should create a “tell us once” approach to collecting information and, crucially, we should transform back-to-work support by giving people the right to take that support in the form of a personal budget. I know the Secretary of State is still evaluating the “right to control” pilots in Barnsley and elsewhere and we look forward to his bringing forward the conclusions from that work.
Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)
I am pleased to hear the right hon. Gentleman announce his intention to abolish the spare room subsidy. He also praised to the skies the Australian insurance model that has just been introduced. Is he therefore committing to the payroll tax increases funding that model in Australia? Have we just heard yet another spending commitment?
Stephen Doughty
When Lord Freud gave evidence to the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs and was questioned about the mental health impacts on people going through the reforms and the impact they were having on individual lives, he appeared to suggest that few conversations had been had with organisations such as the Samaritans and Mind. That is deeply concerning; does my right hon. Friend agree? A constituent came to me the other week and handed me a letter that said at the end, “I’d rather kill myself and then they will have one less mouth to feed.” That is the daily experience of the people who come to our surgeries.
Mr Byrne
That is the tragedy about which we are all hearing in our constituencies. I am sure that the Minister has heard the same thing from his constituents, because we know that some 890 people could lose their disability living allowance in his constituency. If people are in work and lose their DLA, they will lose some of their advantages in the tax credit system. If they are also hit by the uprating legislation and the bedroom tax and also lose their transitional support under universal credit, it will not be long before they are £5,000 a year worse off. How can we in this country, one of the richest nations on earth, justify giving a huge tax cut to millionaires and then saying to 890 people in the Minister’s constituency that if they want to go to work they might be £5,000 a year worse off? How on earth can the Minister justify that to the House?
The Government are putting some our most vulnerable people in the middle of a labyrinth and, frankly, if we are to succeed as a nation in the future we cannot go on like this. We must draw on every ounce of talent that is available to us in these islands. That is the only way we will become a nation that is firing on all cylinders. Today, we offer the Secretary of State no more than a humble step on the road—something that will help him in his negotiations with the Chancellor before the autumn statement. I hope that it is something he will be able to support. No one will be able to understand why he has set his face against it if he votes against it and leads his troops to vote against it this afternoon. I hope he accepts it and, if he does not, I hope this House will force him to.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mr Mark Hoban)
I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “House” to the end of the Question and add:
“welcomes the Government’s leadership in furthering the rights of disabled people; recognises the UK as a world leader in disability rights; notes that approximately £50 billion a year is spent on services for disabled people, including adult social services and including an investment of £3.8 billion in health and social care services in England to deliver more joined-up services to disabled people; further notes the £350 million allocated by the Government for programmes and support for disabled people to move into and stay in work; and acknowledges the Government’s collective determination to build upon the London 2012 Paralympic Games, and create a legacy which shines a light on the abilities and achievements of disabled people.”.
I thank the Opposition for choosing this subject to discuss today, not least because it gives me an opportunity to remind the House of this Government’s actions to support disabled people and improve people’s lives. We are absolutely committed to supporting disabled people and enabling those who face the greatest barriers to play a full role in society.
The UK is a world leader in rights for disabled people and spends more on disability than Germany, France, Italy, Spain and Japan. We are proud of that history and the Government are spending about £50 billion a year on disabled people and the services that support them, but spending money is not enough. We need to spend that money wisely, and I will set out the reforms we are undertaking to ensure that that happens.
Some of the biggest barriers for disabled people are caused not by money but by prejudice and we have done far more to tackle the prejudices that continue, moving forward society’s understanding and knowledge of disability and disabled people. Our ambition is to enable disabled people to achieve their aspirations and play a full role in society. Our approach has been developed with disabled people and the organisations that represent them because it is important to help with what happens in their lives. The strategy we have developed is set out in the document “Fulfilling Potential—Making it Happen”. It sets out nearly 200 actions across government to ensure that disabled people can realise their aspirations.
I am pleased to say that under this Government disabled people are seeing improved outcomes and reduced inequalities compared with non-disabled people since 2009-10. Figures published last week show improvements for disabled people in educational achievements, the employment rate and the proportion in relative poverty. They also show how inequalities compared with non-disabled people have reduced for GCSE results, for the employment rate, for income poverty for families in which someone is disabled, and in choice and control.
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
I note that the hon. Gentleman expresses sympathy and states that the Government have done a lot for disabled people. We have received a great deal of information from various charities saying that the cumulative impact of all the cuts will affect disabled people more than able-bodied people. The purpose of today’s motion is to ask the Government to carry out an independent evaluation of the fact that the changes will affect disabled people more. What is wrong with the Government carrying out that assessment?
Mr Hoban
The hon. Lady’s intervention was long enough, so I ask her to let me finish making my point. The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) called on the Treasury to implement this measure; he, of course, was a Treasury Minister in the dying days of the previous Government. Did they do anything about this? No, they did not. It is a bit rich for Labour, having been in government for 13 years, to come forward at this point to call for a cumulative impact assessment. They never did it when they were in government, and they know that they could not do it now either.
Over the past three years, we have maintained financial support for disabled people despite the fiscal pressures, we have refined benefits to support disabled people and help them into work, we are reforming the care system so it better meets the needs of disabled people and the elderly, and we are using the magnificent success of the Paralympics to transform lives.
Our record on spending on disabled people compares well internationally. We continue to spend almost double the OECD average as a percentage of GDP—2.4% compared with about 1.3%. Of the 34 OECD countries, only Norway and Iceland spend more. In the last spending review, published last month, we demonstrated that even in hard economic times when so many budgets have been subject to significant cuts, the Government continue to make the needs of disabled people a priority and to protect funding for disabled people.
As we know that delivering better, joined-up services for the disabled and the elderly shortens hospital stays or, even better, keeps people out of hospital and in their own homes, we are creating a £3.8 billion single budget for health and social care services in England so that people can work together more closely in local areas, based on a plan agreed between the NHS and local authorities. That shared pot includes an additional £2 billion from the NHS and builds on the existing contribution of about £1 billion in 2014-15. To enable the programme to start, we are investing an extra £200 million in 2014-15 to get this work under way. I believe that that working together will benefit both the disabled and the elderly.
Barbara Keeley
Does the Minister not see that the problem is that £2.8 billion has already gone out of social care? The hundreds of millions of pounds of funding that has been moved across is being used as a sticking plaster to prop up existing care packages, and nine out of 10 local authorities are now only meeting substantial care needs. The situation with social care is deteriorating by the week and it is causing issues in the NHS, such as the recent A and E crisis.
Mr Hoban
But reform is needed, too, to make sure that we spend money carefully. We need to think about how we deliver services. That is why joining up care and health in a single budget is vital if we are to tackle problems on the ground, enable local authorities and the health service to work together, and really make progress.
Mr Byrne
The Minister is being characteristically generous in giving way. If he believes what he has just said, will he explain why the duty to co-operate in the Care Bill does not extend to the Department for Work and Pensions? Will he table Government amendments to the Bill to ensure that those duties to co-operate bite on local authorities, the NHS and his Department?
Mr Hoban
We already co-operate in those areas. We work closely with local authorities and the Department of Health. We do not need a duty of care to enable us to take that approach; we can do that very well at the moment.
We all know that the cost of care is a huge concern for the elderly and for disabled people, and that is why the spending round provides £335 million to local authorities in 2015-16 to prepare for the delivery of the capped costs system from April 2016 and a universal offer of deferred payment agreements from April 2015. That investment begins a programme of reforms to social care funding in England which will mean that no one faces unlimited care costs or is forced to sell their home in their lifetime to pay for residential care.
We want disabled children to have the best possible start in life. The pupil premium is increasing in real terms. That will disproportionately benefit disabled children and young people, and the Government will continue to reform services for those with special educational needs.
It is hard for people to feel included in society if they are excluded from getting around. Railway funding makes provision for the industry to invest up to £100 million from 2014 to 2019 in measures to provide easier access for older and disabled passengers and those with small children. That list of the priorities announced in the spending review demonstrates that any cumulative impact assessment is about not just one area of Government policy, because there is a whole range of ways in which we are taking measures to help disabled people to improve their lives.
Mr Jim Cunningham
Coming back to the £3 billion extra that the Minister mentioned, how will that be distributed, bearing in mind that Coventry city council has to make £28 million in cuts over the next four years? How will he distribute the money to deliver care?
Mr Hoban
The hon. Gentleman knows very well that funding formulas are in place to ensure that the money is allocated. There is an obligation on local authorities not only to make a contribution towards tackling the deficit that we inherited from the previous Government, but to look innovatively at how they deliver services and ensure that we get value for money.
Kate Green
I point out that the previous Government did not conduct a cumulative impact assessment because we were not making so many sweeping changes all at once. However, I want to ask the Minister about his comments on disabled children. Does he accept that the welcome exemption that the Government introduced to allow adults with disabilities an extra room under the bedroom tax for an overnight carer does not apply to children? If he accepts that it does not, will he explain why it does not?
Mr Hoban
The previous Government were asked to supply cumulative impact assessments. [Interruption.] Well, that was the point that the hon. Lady wanted to make. However, that Government recognised that those assessments were too complex and difficult to carry out. The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill is smiling; he was Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and he has to recognise that the previous Government failed to do that.
Mr Byrne
I think that the Minister would sort of accept that we were not introducing some of the biggest cuts to disabled people’s services or benefits for a generation, so the premium on a cumulative impact assessment was not quite as great then as it is now. He said to the House on 5 July that cumulative impact assessments were “a coalition initiative”, and I assume that they are an initiative of which he is proud. If he is so proud of them, why does he not equip himself with one before the Secretary of State goes to see the Chancellor, as he no doubt will, so that he can argue on behalf of disabled people before the autumn statement?
Mr Hoban
I do not want to spoil the excitement that is felt about the later parts of my speech—you are right to pull a wry face, Mr Speaker—but the challenge when one is trying to carry out a cumulative impact assessment that covers a wide range of policy areas for a defined group, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, as he was in the Treasury and in government, is that resources and information are not there to enable people to do it. That is the problem that the last Government faced, and we face the same challenge. Unlike that Government, we have produced a cumulative impact assessment at major fiscal events, but that cannot be disaggregated to the sort of level that the right hon. Gentleman is referring to. He knows that, because he has been through that process.
Mr Hoban
Bodies such as the Institute for Fiscal Studies have said that giving that level of detail is impossible and have stepped away from doing so. I know that the right hon. Gentleman has got into trouble on spending plans; he tried to dig himself out of a hole earlier and did not manage to do it, and there is a bit of chaff for him, but let us be very clear: this was a challenge when he was in government, and it remains a challenge.
Let me move on to employment. We all know that work brings self-esteem and dignity. It enables people, whether disabled or able-bodied, to look after themselves and their families. Nearly half of disabled people are in work. Only one in 10 working-age disabled people have never worked, and for those aged over 25 it is only one in 20. If we want to make a sustainable difference, we must do all that we can to help more disabled people who can work to get into mainstream employment and stay there. The spending review allocated £330 million to programmes and support for disabled people or those with a long-term health condition, so that they can move into and stay in work.
Robert Flello
I thank the Minister for giving way; he is being generous in taking interventions. Over the summer, will he get his Department to publish, as an example, the number of people who used to work in the Remploy factory in Stoke-on-Trent who have gone into work in the wider environment, and the number who are now unemployed and likely to be unemployed for the rest of their working life? That facility, to use the Minister’s exact words, provided work experience—not some segregated nonsense, but work experience that people enjoyed. I spoke to the people there time and again, and they really enjoyed working there. Will he publish those figures over the summer?
Mr Hoban
I shall give the hon. Gentleman some homework for the summer recess. If he goes back to Thursday’s Hansard and the statement that the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey), made about stage 2 for Remploy factories, he will see that it sets out in detail the work that we have done to get people back into employment, and it gives the aggregate figures. The success in getting people into work after the closure of Remploy factories has outpaced what normally happens with redundancies. What we have seen demonstrates the important support given to get people into work.
This Government remain convinced of the need to maximise the opportunities available to disabled people to enable them to realise their employment aspirations. The principal objectives of our disability employment strategy are to increase the employment rate for disabled people, and to maximise the opportunity for disabled people to realise their employment aspirations and thus achieve greater economic independence. We will publish our strategy later this year. We need to make sure that money is targeted more effectively, to ensure that support continues to be available to those who need it most, that there is a lasting impact and that interventions provide a fair deal for the taxpayer.
Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
My hon. Friend talks about priorities. Will he assure the House that the Government’s priority is to give help to disabled people who are British citizens over those who are not British citizens?
Mr Hoban
What we need to do is make sure that we get more people into work, regardless of their disability, and we must help them into employment. We are particularly supporting those who were Remploy employees to get into work, as well as broader groups. That is our focus; that is exactly what the Government are trying to do. That is why we accepted the recommendation from disability expert Liz Sayce that we should focus support on individuals through services such as Access to Work, rather than through institutions such as Remploy, so that more disabled people can work in mainstream employment.
Next week we will see the first ever disability employment conference, a flagship event funded by Government and business. This will involve more than 600 people in London and five regional locations via video link, with many more watching online. The conference is a unique opportunity for businesses and Government to come together to identify the challenges that others are facing and provide innovative solutions to tap into this underemployed pool of talent and reap the benefits that this can bring. But next week’s conference is just the beginning. Over the next two years we will continue to work with business to bring about a new disability-confident perspective on employment and improve the employment outcomes for disabled people.
I have no doubt that people want to work, but some are held back by a complex and unwieldy benefit system with weak or even non-existent incentives to work. Our plans for welfare reform will transform the benefits landscape. We have designed a new system with work as its focus—a coherent approach which ensures that people will be better off in work than on benefits. I firmly believe that the vast majority of people want to work and gain greater independence, but we also know that many disabled people who want to work fear the risk of losing their benefits and feel that that is too great a risk of getting into work. By simplifying the benefits system and making sure that work pays, universal credit will remove the financial risks of taking the first steps back into employment, and increase the incentives for working, even for a few hours a week.
Let me deal with some of the points that the right hon. Gentleman made. Universal credit will provide unconditional support to those disabled people who are not expected to do any work. There will be no cash losers in the roll-out of universal credit. People will see their level of benefit protected when they switch over if their circumstances remain the same. Indeed, the average change in income for disabled people under universal credit is an increase of £8 a month.
Universal credit will provide support for carers and improve their opportunities to maintain links with the world of work. Many families will benefit from help with child care costs, especially people who work under 16 hours a week, who will get help for the first time. Households with one or more disabled adults will be able to keep up to £647 a month of their earnings before seeing a reduction in their universal credit. It will also offer a more flexible system for people whose ability to work fluctuates. Universal credit will encourage more disabled people to see work as financially viable, increasing their dignity and self-esteem.
Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)
What about new claimants? How does the Minister respond to evidence provided by Citizens Advice, which shows that 230,000 severely disabled people who live alone with a young carer could be worse off, 100,000 disabled children could lose up to £28 a week, and up to 116,000 disabled people who work would be at risk of losing around £40 a week?
Mr Hoban
As I said, the cash benefits for people on transition are protected. We hear the figures published by Citizens Advice but we do not understand where they come from. They are not borne out by our understanding. Let me move on to talk about disability living allowance.
Mr Hoban
I want to move on. I have been very generous in giving way to the right hon. Gentleman, as he acknowledged.
We all know that some disabled people face extra costs as a result of the impact of their disability. The main source of financial support, disability living allowance, has not been fundamentally reformed since 1992. Our welfare reforms presented an opportunity to start afresh, keeping the best elements of DLA that people value, but bringing the benefit up to date to make it fit for the 21st century. The personal independence payment—PIP—is easy to understand and administer. It is financially sustainable and more objective. It will be better targeted on those in most need. Throughout the whole development, we have consulted widely with disabled people and have used their views to inform policy design. We have continued to listen and consult, ensuring that these reforms continue to be shaped by the views of disabled people themselves. In other words, reform is not static and this Government are committed to listening and acting where change is required.
Instead of simply cutting money from everyone, we chose the more difficult but principled option of modernising the benefit and focusing support where it is most needed. PIP will be awarded on the basis of a fair, consistent and objective assessment which will enable us to target support on those who face the greatest barriers to independent living. More than one fifth of PIP recipients will get both of the highest rates, worth £134.40 each week, compared with only 16% on DLA. That demonstrates that we are focusing support on those in most need.
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
Does the Minister accept the figure in the Demos and Scope study which indicates that 3,000 households could be affected by six individual welfare changes and lose as much as £4,500 a year? Does not that cumulative effect on living standards create the need for a cumulative assessment of what welfare reform is doing?
Mr Hoban
The hon. Gentleman illustrates in that question the impossibility of the task suggested in the motion. He has focused on one area. He has not taken into account tax changes, changes in fuel duty, the additional money that we are spending on improving access, the pupil premium or the changes that we are making to social care. To do an assessment properly—to look at that level of detail—as the motion suggests, involves looking across the whole of Government in a way that no Government have done before. It is the complexity of the issue that defeats specialist bodies trying to assess the full impact.
We did hear two bits of policy from the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill. He backtracked on the spare room subsidy but he also talked about care. We are constantly looking at ways of joining up and simplifying care. We have made fundamental reforms to improve systems and bring spending under control. The Care Bill goes much further than ever before in giving disabled people real control. We are taking practical and far-reaching steps—for example, extending personal budgets for health and care, introducing a new duty on local authorities to co-operate, and introducing education, health and care plans for our children and young people. We will bring forward proposals in the autumn to improve employment support for disabled people.
The right hon. Gentleman spoke about a new single personal budget, but as usual there is no detail. He said nothing about how it will be funded—a point proved by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard)—nothing about whether it will be means-tested, and nothing about whether local and national systems will be integrated. Will the right hon. Gentleman abolish PIP, for example? He told us nothing about how such an assessment would work, and nothing about the data-sharing issues that clearly arise. It is very clear that that is yet another kite flown by him with no information, no detail, no substance—again, three years in opposition completely wasted, with no fresh ideas.
We are clear that this Government always inform their decisions with equality analysis of policy changes, as required by the Equality Act 2010. All major welfare reform changes have been accompanied by a published equality impact assessment and these are updated if impacts change. I reiterate that a cumulative impact assessment would be so complex and subject to so many variables that it would be meaningless, helping neither individuals nor policy makers, and it would soon be incorrect and out of date. This may be something that the right hon. Gentleman wants to push, but it has not been done by any Government.
The Treasury does publish a broad-brush cumulative analysis of all tax, benefit and public service reforms at every fiscal event. This is a coalition initiative and something that the previous Government did not do. It is by its nature broad-brush, aimed at checking the broad distributional impacts of Government policy. It is not possible to do a meaningful breakdown for the disabled population. That is exactly why the previous Government did not do it. That is why I encourage my hon. Friends to vote against the motion. They know that it cannot be delivered. I urge them to support the amendment, which sets out what the coalition Government have done in office. We have acted to build a modern system of financial support for disabled people, acted to strengthen employment support and acted to provide better care for disabled people. We are delivering real reform for disabled people.
Mr Speaker
Order. I now have to announce the result of a Division deferred from a previous day. On the motion relating to the draft Alternative Investment Fund Managers Regulations, the Ayes were 273 and the Noes were 27, so the Question was agreed to.
[The Division list is published at the end of today’s debates.]
I notify the House that several right hon. and hon. Members wish to contribute to the debate, as a consequence of which I have imposed, with immediate effect, a seven-minute limit on Back-Bench contributions. As with all time limits in these circumstances, it is subject to review, depending on levels of interest and rates of progress.
Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)
I congratulate my right hon. Friends on the Opposition Front Bench on the motion and on rightly acknowledging the campaign outwith this place to bring the cumulative impact assessment to our attention.
I will begin with a non-partisan point: I believe that all of us in this House, whichever side we sit on, do our best to stand up for our constituents. Many of those who come to see us are the most disadvantaged, which is why it is right to point out that Members on both sides have been approached by constituents who are concerned about the impact of recent changes in Government policy—and not just the intended consequences, but sometimes the unintended consequences. That is why a cumulative impact assessment is so vital.
Many of the people who come to see me in my surgeries or whom I interact with in my constituency are disabled, have been injured at work or, through no fault of their own, find themselves unable to work, and what they want is to live as independently as possible, which requires a level of support. For some of them, the impact of certain changes in Government policy might be difficult but will not necessarily make an overall difference. The cumulative impact of those changes, however, can often make a very significant difference in the way they live their lives. That is why it is important to have a full and complete assessment. I hope that the Government, despite the contribution we have just heard from the Minister, will embrace that, not just because it is a coalition initiative but because it is fundamentally important when they are making such a significant change to the way in which support for disabled people works in the UK.
In the time available, I would like to talk about the work capability assessment, which I have done on a number of occasions over the past two and a half years. I must say that the Minister’s predecessor, the current Lord Chancellor, was someone I could engage with. I would not always agree with him, but he would at least listen. I went to see him on a number of occasions. That attitude contrasts sharply with what we have seen more recently. I make that point because I am afraid that that attitude underlies the importance of having this type of cumulative assessment.
I have asked a number of parliamentary questions about the work capability assessment. The Minister, who is now listening, will recall that I have asked written questions that his Department has answered, but lately it has decided that it will not answer them. It has decided that, as a result of a change in the resources available to it, it will not answer those questions because they were requested in a slightly different form. Those questions were asked in exactly the same way, but the Minister refused to answer them. He will be aware, because there have been at least two debates on this, that my right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) sought to meet him, along with me and other campaigners, but he has refused to do so.
Tom Greatrex
If the Minister will not see my right hon. Friend, how can he know of the level of constructive engagement that the group is offering? The judgment he made at the start of that exchange was precisely that he would refuse to see it because he did not want to engage with it. I will leave the matter to my right hon. Friend, who I am sure will wish to speak about it. That is the point I am trying to make in relation to a number of consistent examples. I hope the Minister will reflect on it today and over the summer.
The National Audit Office commented last summer on the DWP’s failure to apply the penalties or service credits within the WCA in relation to Atos Healthcare’s underperformance and failure to seek adequate financial redress. It was almost as if it just did not want to apply them, because that would indicate that there was a problem in the system.
Robert Flello
My hon. Friend is making an extremely important speech. I am sure that his experience will be the same as mine: when constituents come to see me, time and again they mention Atos. That is the only word I seem to hear some days because of the nightmare that that company is and the problems it causes to my constituents.
Tom Greatrex
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention; he makes an important point. It is partly about Atos Healthcare, which has delivered the contract appallingly, but it is also about the deficiencies in the contract, which this Government, particularly—it gives me no pleasure to say this—since the current Minister has been in place, seemingly refuse to deal with.
Dr Greg Wood is a doctor who was employed by Atos until he left its employ at the start of May this year. In the middle of May, he made a series of serious and very specific allegations about his experience as a doctor working at an Atos centre and the way in which the work capability assessment was carried out. For the record, he suggests not that we should get rid of the assessment, or even that it gets cases wrong at either end of the scale, but that people in the middle are being caught because of the flawed way in which the system is designed and implemented. He said that
“claimants are often not being assessed in an even handed way… HCPs are not free to make independent recommendations, important evidence is frequently missing or never sought in the first place, medical knowledge is twisted and points are often wrongly withheld through the use of an erroneously high standard of proof”.
He said that if Atos assessors
“show deviation from the official line the HCP is instructed to change the report”
and:
“In about a quarter of assessments important documentary evidence is missing but the assessments go ahead regardless.”
He said that training of new HCPs creates an environment where they
“expect that they will see in the course of their work score too few points to qualify for ESA. This is often the de facto starting hypothesis, with the effect that the claimant usually faces an uphill struggle before the assessment has even begun.”
He said that HCPs often “begrudgingly” score claimants and that an attitude is drilled into them
“which leans towards finding reasons not to award points”.
Those are very serious and specific allegations that I would have expected the Government to take seriously, given the warm words we frequently hear from the Minister and the Secretary of State, who has now left his place, about improving this process and constantly being vigilant about making it better for people.
I wrote to the Prime Minister on the same day asking him to investigate the allegations. He passed the correspondence to the Secretary of State, who wrote back to me on 22 June. I got back a one-page letter—I have it here—that made absolutely no reference to any of the specific allegations. It did not say that there was a problem; it was just a standard response. The Government wanted to brush it under the carpet. That attitude belies the problems that exist.
On the same day, the Secretary of State’s private office e-mailed me, by mistake, a copy of a letter to another Member of Parliament—a Government Member—raising an individual’s case to which there was a much more systematic and detailed response. That is perhaps because the initial letter came from me, or from a Labour Member. I very much hope not, because they were very serious allegations that the Government decided to ignore completely.
This is not just about the frustrations of seeking information from the Government, although I admit that I do get frustrated about that. It is not just about the waste and inefficiency in a programme that is costing £110 million a year for the Atos contract, and now up to £70 million this year in the appeals process to correct the mistakes. It is not just about an attitude, although I say again that I have found the Minister to be dismissive, evasive and sometimes partisan in our engagement on this issue. It is also about the experience of real people in every single part of this country who often have to adjust their life circumstances due to events completely beyond their control due to illness, accident or incident. It is about people who will have seen a system that is not working properly because the Government rolled out the migration from incapacity benefit without taking into account the lessons identified in the pilot projects, with the consequences that we have seen since. Most of all, it is about decency, compassion and helping people, not hounding people. The system is wrong and it needs to change.
Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)
It is a pleasure to speak in this debate—a debate that the Labour party has been running away from for far too long. For all its praise of Pat’s petition, which was placed on 1 November 2011, it took until 6 February 2013 for the shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), to have the courage even to meet them. When he met them, what did their website say? It said that he had promised them an Opposition day debate as soon as possible, before the Budget. The Budget and the spending review have been and gone, and now what do we see? It is a press release from the shadow Secretary of State claiming that he has dragged Ministers to the Chamber, but it is he and his Front Benchers who have been dragged to this Chamber by Pat’s petition, We are Spartacus and other extremist disability groups that do not speak for the overall majority.
Let me explain to Labour Front Benchers why I might have sympathy with their reluctance. The cumulative impact assessment is a very narrow tool by which to judge the contribution of the disabled community in this country, their potential and what they can achieve. I think that it borders on the offensive and would suggest that Labour look a little more widely.
Just last week the Minister for the disabled, the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey), published the final set of documents of the “Fulfilling Potential” report. I urge those who want a proper cumulative impact assessment to look at the technical annexe, which is a far more challenging set of indicators than a cumulative impact assessment would provide and a far more nuanced, reasoned view of what being disabled means in Great Britain today.
Labour’s empty rhetoric and its sole focus on benefits as a measure of the quality of life of disabled people do a disservice to the wider disabled community. We often hear Labour Members talk of their desire for welfare reform. When we drill down to what they mean, as we have tried to today, it is very clear that they want more money for more people. The do not understand the nature of reform.
Let me quote what one of our eminent Paralympians, Jonnie Peacock, who won so many medals last year, said on 8 September 2012:
“I did not think I should be taking DLA from people who should be getting it. There are people who should not be on it and are getting it, and there are people who should be getting it and are receiving nothing. The testing could be more secure and then they could award the benefits to the right people.”
I cite that because it is clearly not a pro-Government press release, but a middle-of-the-road assessment that the vast bulk of disabled people share about what is occurring in this country.
Fiona O'Donnell
Will the hon. Gentleman at least acknowledge that people with disabilities are being disproportionately hit by the cuts this Government are making?
Paul Maynard
I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. What I will acknowledge is that we are going through a period of profound and challenging change. We as a Government are seeking to edge towards greater recognition of the social model of disability, and that means not paying attention to the labels that too many want to hang around the necks of disabled people.
The personal independence payment, for example, looks at how individuals cope with their own conditions and disabilities. It does not say, “Tick box x for condition y and you will get these benefits.”
Fiona O'Donnell
I am sorry, but the hon. Gentleman does not understand what is in the assessment. It asks for very narrow yes or no responses that do not allow people to explain the nature of their abilities and disabilities.
Paul Maynard
I think that the hon. Lady misunderstands the actual point of PIP; it is to look at how people cope with their conditions. They are given ample opportunity to submit evidence and we help them to do that in my constituency surgeries. I hope that Labour Members do so, too, rather than store up a treasure trove of Atos scare stories that make people more scared of attending an Atos appointment than they were before.
Paul Maynard
I have given way enough times and the shadow Secretary of State has had his opportunity. If those on the Opposition Front Benches paid more attention to the “Fulfilling Potential” report, they might be a little chilled by what they read. Page 34 states clearly:
“Young people’s aspirations can decline in response to their growing understanding of the world”.
Listening to Opposition Members, I am sure that young people’s aspirations will decline because of the negative messages they are getting. The report states:
“By the age of 26 disabled people are less confident”
about entering into the world. I think we should be celebrating the fact that this Government are taking steps on a broad range of measures—not merely disability benefits—that the previous Government never had the courage to take.
For example, consider a young person who wishes to go to university. Under the Labour Government they were scared to do so because they could not guarantee that their care package would be made portable. With this Government’s Care Bill, we are doing just that. How can we put a price on aspiration? How can we quantify hope? What do I say to disabled people using an organisation in my constituency that has just introduced a “Safe Journey” card they can show on trams to ensure that it pulls away more slowly and they do not get flung to the ground? How are such things incorporated into the precious cumulative impact assessment? So much that can be done for the disabled community will never appear in any impact assessment, but it can be reflected in what we are doing with the “Fulfilling Potential” initiative.
I begin to despair at so much of what I hear from the Opposition Benches and it makes me truly angry. I pay tribute to the previous Government for their work to try to improve awareness of disability hate crime. However, I react with fury to the reaction of so many Opposition Members when the reporting of incidents of disability hate crime increases because of work done by this Government, and the previous Government, to create an atmosphere in which people are more confident to report such crime. We are told that an increase in the reporting of hate crime is evidence of the Government’s war on the disabled. I find that disgusting. It is personally abhorrent that people should campaign in a partisan way on the backs of those in the most vulnerable section of our society, to make a partisan point. That does nothing.
The contribution of disabled people to this country goes far wider than the amount they receive in benefits. I recognise, however, that we cannot talk of aspiration or fulfilling potential if we do not have a stable system of state support. We are trying to ensure that the right people get the right amount of money to match their needs, abilities and aspirations to work, live their lives and fulfil their ambitions, not match the labels hung around their necks by the Labour party.
Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)
I have great respect for the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), and although I do not agree with everything he said, like my hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex), he brought some reality to a debate that so far—I am referring to contributions from the Government Benches—does not seem to relate to the world in which I live, the people I meet, or the families I represent.
The Minister read out what seemed to be a civil service briefing, but disabled people watching that are too accustomed to being asked to fill in large forms and all sorts of bureaucracy to be impressed by such an approach. We did not hear from Government Members of organisations such as Save the Children, Mencap, Radar, Enable and so on, which have proof of the cuts the Government are making, and particularly the disproportionate impact of those cuts on disabled people.
Let us return—it is right to do so, Madam Deputy Speaker—to the bedroom tax. The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban), who has now left the Chamber, basically defended what the Government are proposing, as did the Prime Minister right from the beginning. The Minister did not say, however, that the Government have since done two U-turns.
Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con)
What is the policy of the Labour Front Benchers? Their position regarding the bedroom tax seems to be all over the place. We have heard that the Leader of the Opposition has said that Labour would not repeal it, yet in this debate the Labour Front Benchers have suggested that they would.
Mr Clarke
There was a time when I was on the Front Bench and I might have been happy to respond to that point. I am satisfied that the Labour party will present to the British people at the election a manifesto that they will endorse. I will fight and fight again, whatever Government are in power, to ensure that this monstrosity of legislation does not remain on the statute book.
Let us examine what the bedroom tax means to ordinary people in our constituencies. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) said, two thirds of those affected by the bedroom tax have a disability. That is absolutely outrageous. How can the Government have seriously considered putting in place such a proposal? According to an estimate by the National Housing Federation, 2,128 households will be affected in my constituency, and according to the Government’s own estimates 1,419 of them—along with 83,000 in Scotland and more than 400,000 throughout the country—are occupied by someone with a disability.
The Government claim that they are putting the housing market in a more appealing position. However, when we look at statistics—indeed, before we even do so—we know that there are simply not enough houses with the right facilities to which to remove disabled people if they have an extra bedroom. I have thought during the debate about several disabled people in my constituency and others I have met throughout the country. Two or three years ago, a young woman in my constituency was dying of variant CJD. She needed her bedroom, and she also needed another bedroom to accommodate the equipment that she desperately needed, including her supply of oxygen. How can we allow the Government to remove disabled people to smaller houses, when we know that those houses are simply not there?
Barbara Keeley
My right hon. Friend is making a powerful speech. Has he encountered in his surgeries a family like I have in mine? They are a disabled couple in their 50s who need to move out of an upstairs flat because it is not accessible. They are being denied homes that would be accessible for them, such as those that already have a stairlift, because of the bedroom tax. The tax means that people have to move, and it restricts future choice too.
Mr Clarke
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Even if there were sufficient accommodation for this huge change to take place, the trauma that people with disabilities, and in many cases their carers, will be asked to go through is simply unacceptable.
Each of the people I have described stands to lose a minimum of £401 a year. At a time of rising fuel costs and rising prices in the shops, that £401 can be the difference between having electricity or not, having a warm home or not, or having three meals a day or not. The bedroom tax is creating fear and despair among the most vulnerable in my constituency and the country.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
Is it not the point that, according to the Government’s forward budgets, they expect to make a saving from the bedroom tax, but if the people affected moved there would not be a saving? That is how cynical the policy is.
Mr Clarke
Again, that is a good point. I think of a constituent whose case I raised with the Prime Minister. I visited her the day after our exchange. Her house has been adapted because she is in a wheelchair, which she has to use upstairs as well as downstairs, so she needed a lift. That lift was provided in one of the rooms of her house. Are we to believe that it would help society for that woman to move to a smaller house, which would also have to be adapted? Where is the sanity of that, far less the decency?
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that heavily adapted homes are excluded from the spare room subsidy?
Mr Clarke
They are not. If the hon. Gentleman reads the regulations, the two U-turns to which I referred to do not include heavily adapted homes, but we will continue to fight for that.
Briefly on local government, we are told that the Government have increased funding for discretionary housing payments through local authority funds and that that will be enough, but we have seen a 338% increase in people applying for discretionary housing payments. Local authorities—I say this as a former president of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities—simply cannot find the money. The Government cannot keep cutting, cutting and cutting again and then say the responsibility lies with local authorities when every single pressure has been put on them.
Personal independence payments are replacing disability living allowance. They will be paid at a different rate and the Government estimate that 600,000 fewer people will be eligible, all because the Government wish to reduce costs by 20%. Balancing the books, as they see it, is being done on the backs of disabled people, and that cannot be right.
On the Work programme, we have been told that the Government want to get people with disabilities into work. That is an admirable objective, and one that I have supported for a very long time, but the Government must know that there are simply not enough jobs available, not only for people with disabilities but for others on benefits too.
In 1986, I had the privilege of introducing what I hoped was a progressive Act relating to disability. I think of the people who supported it: Jack Ashley, Alf Morris and others on both sides of the House. It went through under a Thatcher Government. I say to Government Members to read what the Whips have told them to say and read what the civil servants have prepared, but to think and think again about how this policy affects ordinary people who are already disadvantaged, and, in all morality, to reject what the Government are seeking to do.
Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con)
I am grateful to be called in this debate.
I can assure the House that the Whips have not told me anything about what to say; they have not given me any guidance. What I am going to say comes from my experience as a constituency MP of having to deal with a number of cases that relate to Government policy.
On the so-called bedroom tax—the spare room subsidy—the Government are doing absolutely the right thing. If we consider that about a third of social housing tenants have spare rooms, and that about 1.8 million households remain on the social housing waiting list, we see that there is an imbalance. I saw this last year in a constituency surgery—a 58-year-old lady lived in a house with four bedrooms. She objected, as was her right, to the bedroom subsidy, yet at the same time—I am not divulging any confidences—her daughter and her daughter’s partner and their baby were living in a bedsit in the borough in my constituency. Clearly, there was a mis-match. It did not make sense for the lady to be living in a four-bedroom house at the taxpayers’ expense, while her daughter and granddaughter were living in a bedsit.
Fiona O'Donnell
I remind the hon. Gentleman that we are talking about disabled people. Approximately one in four disabled people in Scotland in social housing will be liable to pay the bedroom tax, but need that spare room as a direct result of their disability. Does he think that is fair?
Kwasi Kwarteng
I was mindful that we were talking about disability, but I wanted, at the beginning of my speech, to say that the Government were doing the right thing with the spare room subsidy.
When the disability living allowance was introduced in 1992, the number of recipients was one third of what it is today; the number of people has tripled in 20 years. That does not reflect the changing work environment in Great Britain.
Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)
Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that since 1992 the lives of disabled people have been transformed? In 1992, the expectation was that most disabled people would live in residential care as they got older, but now people are living in the community. Furthermore, the working-age increase has not been as dramatic as Ministers would like us to believe.
Kwasi Kwarteng
I accept that society has changed since 1992, but there has been a marked increase in costs. We cannot pretend, like Labour, that there is not an issue. As the shadow Secretary of State said, we need to have reform; the problem is that too many Opposition Members do not understand what that reform entails. To me, reform means directing funds to the people who are most vulnerable and who most need it.
Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)
Has my hon. Friend had an opportunity to look at the projected figures and assess what is likely to be spent under the new system in 2015-16 compared with the amount spent in 2009-10?
Kwasi Kwarteng
I am happy to have taken that intervention. The projected figure of £13 billion is more in real terms than the figure in 2009-10 provided by the previous Government. That means not just more money, as my hon. Friend suggests, but more money directed at the people who need it the most. We are trying to reform the system, and we will succeed in doing so. We are taking an adult and mature view of the public finances and trying to direct scarce resources to people who most need them.
It is all very well for Opposition Members to howl, holler and cry about cuts—that is what one expects them to do; they are doing their job—but Government Members have to take a mature and responsible approach to the public finances and introduce meaningful reform that we can afford and which can best help the most vulnerable.
Barbara Keeley
Will the hon. Gentleman explain the economics of the situation to the 10,000 carers who expect to lose their carer’s allowance and who have probably already given up work to care? If they stop caring, there will be no saving in moving from DLA to PIPs and in all those people losing their DLA, because if their carers stop caring for them, they will end up in much more expensive state care homes.
Kwasi Kwarteng
I am happy to have taken that intervention, but I must say that Opposition Members have totally ignored this issue of reform. We cannot continue on the basis that nothing has happened, that there are limitless resources and that we can simply give more money to more people; that is completely unacceptable. It is clear from any engagement with the electorate or any look at the polls or surveys of public opinion that the public have had enough. That is one of the problems with Labour’s political strategy. On welfare reform, it is completely incredible.
Fiona O'Donnell
The hon. Gentleman is confusing me slightly. Is it his understanding that the change from DLA to PIP will result in any savings to the Government, or does he think it will keep the budget at the same level?
Kwasi Kwarteng
I fear that that will be the last intervention that I take. In the first instance, it is not about trying to cut how much money people get; its purpose is to direct the funds, recognising the expenditure constraints. The Opposition, in their robotic insistence on very simple, clear messages that are completely false and not based on any sense of reality, have forgotten about that. Considering that the DLA budget has gone up £10 billion in real terms—that is more than the Home Office budget or what we receive from capital gains tax and inheritance tax—it is vital that we are more sensible and intelligent in how we apply those funds.
It is perfectly clear to me that the PIP reform will be much more intelligently applied than the DLA, the costs of which spiralled, as I have suggested. We had a self-regulatory system, whereby people could essentially say that they were eligible for the benefit.
Kwasi Kwarteng
I am not taking any more interventions. I have been perfectly generous enough and time is short.
I am afraid this is not something that Labour Members are taking seriously. They are not taking reform seriously and are wilfully in denial about the scale of the fiscal mess that they made. It is disappointing that any constructive attempt by those of us on the Conservative Benches to reform our welfare system and introduce a measure of added fairness and greater efficiency—in terms of targeting people who need the money—is met by the same old stale cries and hollering from the Opposition. This is not a constructive debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) suggested, in a powerful and compelling speech, that the whole tone of the debate was demeaning to people who are vulnerable. The language is very much that of people who are victims and of trying to apply more money or thinking that money is the solution to everything, but there is a much wider range of criteria against which the issue can be discussed.
Lastly, I want to say something about the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), who represents Labour on this issue. He was the man who wrote that there was no money. It is important that the House is reminded of that. That is the general context in which this debate has to take place. A Government who are trying to reform are doing the right thing.
Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)
I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in today’s debate. It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng). However, I have a sense of “Groundhog Day”, because the last time I rose to speak in a debate on this issue, he and his hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) were again the two poor souls who had been forced to stand up and try to defend the Government’s position. I am grateful for their contributions, although the other reason I have a sense of “Groundhog Day” is that I remember the same accusations being thrown around about extremist disability groups. Let us be clear who we are talking about.
Fiona O'Donnell
The hon. Gentleman should first allow me to spell this out for him, then I will be happy to take his intervention. Does he include in his definition of “extremist disability groups” Citizens Advice, the Multiple Sclerosis Society, Margaret Blackwood, Leonard Cheshire, Capability Scotland, Scope and many others that have today supported the call made by Opposition Members? Although I express my gratitude to my right hon. Friends on our Front Bench for giving us the opportunity to debate this issue, the praise should really go to those organisations, which have continued to champion the cause of people with disabilities. I hope the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys will now make it clear whether he thinks those organisations are “extremist”.
Paul Maynard
Will the hon. Lady confirm whether she has read the manifesto of the Campaign for a Fair Society, which wants to close down all special schools, all day care centres and most of the other segregated provision? Does she not regard that as extreme?
Fiona O’Donnell
As the hon. Gentleman will know, there is a wide range of views on how we provide services for people with disabilities.
Fiona O’Donnell
I will deal with the question from the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys first.
That wide range of views includes people who think that adults and children with disabilities and special needs should be shut away from society and protected, and those who think the complete opposite—that they should be fully integrated into society. There can also be a degree of tokenism, and we sometimes hear terms such as “real inclusion”, “rehabilitation” and “normalisation” being used. I do not agree with the stand that those people take. I note that the hon. Gentleman, in asking his question, did not answer my question to him.
Fiona O’Donnell
No, I have given the hon. Gentleman one opportunity to answer it. He had seven minutes in which to put the record straight, but he did not do so. I am going to make some progress now.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions does not like it when the human cost of the changes he is making are brought to his attention. We saw just how angry he can get when Owen Jones presented him with some case studies on “Question Time”. That is what this debate is about. I found it incredibly moving when my hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Nash) asked her question of the Prime Minister today and described someone calling her office who was feeling suicidal because of the impact of the changes. I am not for one minute suggesting that Ministers are wilfully causing that kind of suffering and harm, and, at times, I defend them in that regard. However, I get very angry e-mails using language that is inappropriate, even when attacking the Government, and the Government are going to have to acknowledge at some point that there is a very different feeling out there of the kind that we have never seen before. We are hearing that from Welfare Rights, from Citizens Advice and from the people who contact us and come to our surgeries. I would never have believed that, as a Member of Parliament, I would have to put in place procedures for my staff to deal with a constituent whom they believe to be at risk of taking their own life. At some point the Government are going to have to respond to that, not with anger but by taking seriously the impact of these changes on people with mental health problems.
I hope that the Minister will talk today about mental health champions, which were introduced as a result of the review, and that she will tell us what impact they are having. How is she monitoring them? I think that we have two for the whole of Scotland. Is there evidence that they are making a difference?
Fiona O’Donnell
I will give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain).
Mr Bain
Is not the whole point of this debate to point out that we need the necessary information in order to see the impact of the benefit changes. Did she see the recent comments from Scope, which indicated that as a result of the changes to employment and support allowance and to the disability living allowance, some 26,000 people could lose between £17,000 and £23,000 over five years? Do not those people deserve the relevant information, and do not we all deserve a cumulative impact assessment?
Fiona O’Donnell
As ever, my hon. Friend makes a valuable contribution to the debate.
I freely admit that I want this Government gone; that is my agenda. It is not a narrow political agenda that has brought all those organisations and disabled people to the House today to make their views heard. They are saying that, as the Government press on with the changes, they need the relevant information. Councils, medical services, social workers and disability organisations also need that information so that they can respond and support people adequately through this process.
Fiona O’Donnell
I will give way for the last time. I apologise to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) that I shall not have time to give way to him.
Kwasi Kwarteng
The hon. Lady has talked about the Government’s position but, for the benefit of the House, will she clarify the position of the Opposition, particularly on the bedroom tax?
Fiona O’Donnell
Our position on that has been stated time and again. If we were in government today, we would axe the bedroom tax. Of course our manifesto has not been written at this time, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman and the people who have e-mailed me that I will be pressing the Labour party to make a commitment to axe the bedroom tax. I want to see such a commitment in our manifesto, because it is a grossly unfair tax on people who are often very vulnerable.
Fiona O’Donnell
I am sorry. Fond as I am of my hon. Friend, I really want to make a bit of progress.
The Government must expect anger in reaction to what they are doing. Let us not forget where this whole process started. We had a proposition to take away the mobility component of DLA from people in residential care. I think that a lot of people who voted for this Government thought it would be a Government who understood the rights of people with disabilities. That was proved absolutely not to be the case—no more so than when the Prime Minister stood at that Dispatch Box and compared someone living in a residential care setting with someone in a hospital. That completely missed the difference between a medical model and a social model of care. The reality is that this Government have been one step behind people with disabilities and the organisations that represent them at every step in the process. That is why they should expect only anger from people out there.
I want to talk a little more about the bedroom tax and the false claim from Government Members—I am sure the Minister will support me in this—that the Government have exempted from the regulations and removed from the impact of the bedroom tax people with disabilities who have adapted their homes. That is not the case. As I understand it, that is the case only when support is also offered. The Minister will no doubt be aware that in Scotland, we are undergoing a change in the way people with disabilities are empowered to buy their own care through direct payments. This means that many people, whom I hope she would have included in the exemptions from the tax, will no longer be exempted, because they are being empowered to buy their care and not receive it from the provider who owns the property in which they live. That seems to me to be an unfair imposition.
Finally, I ask the Minister to respond to the court ruling on the Gorry case, where a child with a severe disability was sharing a room with a sibling. The court ruled that it was discrimination under the terms of the Equality Act 2010 to compel the child to share a room, given the extent of his disability. Will the Government act on this, and most of all, will they give the organisation that is going to have to support people through this incredibly difficult process the information it needs? They should support this motion. Let us see the true extent of this problem so that these people can be supported.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
Just a few hours ago, I was delighted and hugely proud to be with my constituent, Nathan Popple, as he received the award from Whizz-Kidz as this year’s Whizz-Kidz campaigner of the year. Nathan has shown incredible courage, determination and dedication, not just in organising this campaign but in speaking up on behalf of disabled people of all ages in Leeds. I am proud, too, to work with Whizz-Kidz and its inspirational ambassadors to ensure that the voice of disabled people of all ages, but particularly young disabled people who have so much potential, is heard.
There is, of course, a partisan element to today’s debate, but we all need to remember that what we all seek to try to do—we know that all Governments succeed in part and fail in part to achieve this—is to give all disabled people the opportunity to live, to work and to do the sorts of things that we all take for granted. We want all people, including people with disabilities, to be able to take those things for granted by providing them with the support that they need.
Jim Shannon
The hon. Gentleman was right and honest in what he said in his introduction. The facts in my constituency—and, I suspect, in many others—are that people are being turned down for employment support allowance and disability living allowance in greater numbers than ever before. The hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell) mentioned “Groundhog Day”, but it is not “Groundhog Day” when it comes to the statistics, which show greater numbers of people affected. Does the hon. Gentleman feel that the system needs to be reviewed so that those who need the benefits most are not restricted from receiving them?
Greg Mulholland
I say two things to the hon. Gentleman. First, the experience of all right hon. and hon. Members is crucial; each and every one of us should be bringing constituents’ cases not only to this House, but to Ministers. That is part of how we learn.
Secondly, all Governments must be prepared to do full impact assessments of policies before they are implemented, as has been done, and then to review them constantly. I do not want the message to be sent out that the Government are afraid of doing that. We need a constant and ongoing review, and I hope we get that message. I have made that point specifically about the under-occupancy penalty, to give that policy its honest and factual name.
We have to accept that there were many flaws in the system inherited by the Government. Although undoubtedly well intentioned and in some ways positive, the Welfare Reform Act 2007 had flaws and did not always do the kind of things that we would all want it to do. It was right that it was reviewed.
The question that we should ask, and I hope we will all ask today, is not about whether reform was needed, because it very clearly was, but about whether the reforms are the right ones. We should be asking that question continually, and not from a partisan perspective on either side. Are the reforms working and delivering for disabled people? If and where they are not working, we should look into that. I have no problem in saying that and urging Ministers to review the situation on an ongoing basis.
Sheila Gilmore
In the course of the debates about the Welfare Reform Bill, people predicted that a number of specific issues would be difficult. For example, there was an amendment suggesting that adapted properties should be exempted from the bedroom tax. Does the hon. Gentleman now regret that his party did not support those changes?
Greg Mulholland
I pay tribute to the work of the Work and Pensions Committee, of which I was proud to be a member in the last Parliament. It has a vital role to play and I look forward to its ongoing reports, which should be part of the review of these policies.
The hon. Lady knows, having listened to me in debates on more than one occasion, that I personally felt unable to support the under-occupancy penalty precisely because there were not the sort of exemptions that I believed should be included. I thank Ministers for listening to at least some of my points and introducing further exemptions before the policy was introduced, but I would like more exemptions and I will continue to press for them.
During our last debate on the subject, I stood in this exact place—the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) was probably very near where she is now—and said that the Government must and should commit to a review on the specific policy. We did get that commitment. There must be a review, which should be done not only through the Department for Work and Pensions but in conjunction with councils up and down the country, so that we get an open and honest assessment of how the policy is affecting disabled people.
Dame Anne Begg
I thank the hon. Gentleman for being so generous. People living in a house specifically adapted for them have to pay the bedroom tax and therefore often have to apply for a discretionary housing payment. In most cases, they will get that payment into the future, which suggests that the payment should not be discretionary but automatic. Could the hon. Gentleman use that fact in his argument with Ministers about why those living in specifically adapted houses should be exempt?
Greg Mulholland
It is always a pleasure to hear from the hon. Lady and it was a pleasure to serve with her on the Work and Pensions Committee in the last Parliament, before she was Chair.
The hon. Lady knows that I have said that we should be discussing cases in which rooms deemed to be spare have not been spare. Some of those issues were dealt with in respect of the equipment needed and so on, and I was pleased with that. However, I feel that if discretionary payments are needed again and again and categories are established, those categories should warrant an exemption. I will continue to make that case and to push for a review.
In the limited time that I have left, I should look at some of the other issues covered in this broad debate, which the House should revisit regularly. It should discuss the issue at least twice a year because the situation is in a state of flux, which has been brought about, in part, by the economic situation and the need to look at the overall welfare budget, which all parties, including the Labour party, very clearly said needs to be reformed. We should also do so, however, to check on the positive reforms and make sure that these policies are indeed doing what we collectively want them to do. The Opposition were clear that DLA needed reform; indeed, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), who opened the debate for the Opposition, said that.
To respond to a point made earlier, it is very important that the wrong messages are not given out today, because the reality is that overall spending on personal independent payments and DLA will be higher in real terms in every year up to 2015-16 than spending was on DLA to 2009-10. This is not about seeking to reduce the welfare budget, therefore; instead it is about directing it at people who need it, and looking in particular at what people can do and genuinely empowering them, rather than judging people on what they cannot do.
Does that mean PIP will be absolutely perfect in a way that DLA was not? Of course not, and we all have to accept that every single change to any benefit will have implications and consequences, and it is right that we should look at them, but simply to use this debate as an opportunity to bash the Government on policy fails to achieve what I hope is the Opposition Front-Bench team’s intention: to say we must be looking on an ongoing basis at the impact of these policies.
I want to hear from Ministers today that they are not in any way afraid of having a review and that there must be a constant review of all policies in this area. My position on the motion is that I believe we should have a proper assessment, but that we should have one next year. That is my position simply because the big change from DLA to PIP is being introduced this year. I do believe we should have a review, however, and I hope we hear that from the Minister, too, so we do not send out the false message that we do not want a review.
Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)
I am grateful to my Front-Bench colleagues for choosing to debate this cause, which I brought to the House’s attention in a Westminster Hall debate at the end of last year, on 18 December, when I urged the Minister for disabled people, the hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey), to conduct a cumulative impact assessment on the real-term effects of welfare reform on the most vulnerable people in our society. I am sure she will remember that very well-attended debate.
The Chancellor and the Prime Minister have repeatedly lectured us about the need for fairness and said that we are all in this together. However, it is clear that it is not the richest, most powerful and most able in our society who will pay the costs of this Government’s cold calculation and uncaring disregard. Instead, it will be the least able, the most vulnerable and the least powerful—the disabled—who will pay the price.
We call for a cumulative impact assessment because a range of cuts and changes is taking place at the same time, and we need to assess their cumulative effect. I am sure Members have read, or at least heard of, the report “The Tipping Point” by the Hardest Hit campaign, which concluded:
“Many disabled people feel that they are living on the edge, and that the loss of even a small amount of income could tip their already complex lives into greater dependence and insecurity.”
That has been brought into stark relief by campaigns outside this House by organisations such as the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux, Mind and Carers UK, and the WOW petition and Pat’s petition. They have brought this to our attention, although I think Members already knew about it because in our surgeries we and our caseworkers are dealing with it in person, on the telephones and via e-mail on a daily basis.
“The Tipping Point” study discovered that disabled people and their families are struggling to make ends meet and feel increasingly nervous about the future, and because of that the Government need to act urgently to arrest disabled people’s slide into entrenched isolation and poverty. Members have heard of Pat’s petition, which had been signed by 62,500 people at the last count that I saw. It called on the Government to:
“Stop and review the cuts to benefits and services which are falling disproportionately on disabled people, their carers and families”.
I ask the Government not only to listen, but to act.
Let us look at the elements of welfare reform that are having an impact on disabled people, and their carers and families. The introduction of the universal credit will result in 2 million households seeing a drop in their income, with disabled people being among those worst affected. The DWP’s own equality impact assessment from November 2011 predicted that disabled households would lose £37 a week, compared with a figure for non-disabled households of only £26 a week.
Another major change is the introduction of the personal independence payment. Last year, in a Westminster Hall debate, the Minister with responsibility for disability matters said that 160,000 claimants would get a reduced award and 170,000 would get no award—that was before a single individual assessment had taken place, so it was a very mean prediction. That announcement concerned me greatly, given that the Minister already had figures on those who would get a reduced award and those who would receive no support before any assessments had taken place. Surely that suggests that the Minister is capping the number of those on PIP, rather than basing that benefit on individual need.
The issue of contribution-based employment and support allowance is affecting many of my constituents. The time limit of 365 days—one year—on those in the work-related activity group, and its retrospective implantation, is forcing many disabled people on to jobseeker’s allowance, given that there is no magic tree spouting jobs these days in places such as north-east England. As I am sure the Minister is aware, unemployment there is going up, not down, yet we seem to be expecting more people with disabilities, or profound disabilities, to get into the world of work, where jobs are already scarce.
Let me give an example from my constituency. It concerns a lady suffering from bronchial pulmonary dysplasia, who was too ill for a heart and lung transplant and who had been on steroids for 37 years. She had brittle bones—osteoporosis—kidney failure and was unable to walk. She regularly had fractures, she had osteoarthritis and she was diabetic. She was initially placed in the work-related activity group and told she would need to find work. As I am sure hon. Members have already fathomed out, she was housebound and bedridden. Thankfully, intervention from my office and other support groups showed that the DWP had clearly made a mistake and it was forced to retract that initial assessment.
I do not wish to talk extensively about the bedroom tax, but so many people who face it do not have spare rooms. These rooms are used to store specialist equipment or are for a family carer, often a spouse or a partner, to sleep in; if those rooms were not available, they would not get that much-needed sleep. We need to remember that those carers save the Government about £100 billion a year, because they take on the role of caring for those disabled people almost exclusively.
Before I move on, I need to talk briefly about Atos, its shocking assessments and the assessment process. I would need all day to discuss that, but I shall just say that the citizens advice bureau in Gateshead has undertaken 1,400 appeals on behalf of people, 1,200 of which have been successful.
Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that it is not just the welfare reform assessments that are affecting the people with disabilities, but the legal aid changes, which meant that people can no longer appeal against these welfare benefit decisions with help from the CAB?
Ian Mearns
I very much welcome my hon. Friend’s intervention, as she describes exactly why we need this cumulative impact assessment. So many different strands to this debate are having an impact on disabled people, and their carers and families.
Before I finish my contribution, I want to refer to a website, calumslist.org, which shows how many suicidal deaths have been directly attributed to welfare reform by a coroner’s court. The total so far is 33. When we had the debate in Westminster Hall in December the figure was 24, so that cost is going up by the month. We need to ensure that the assessment criteria take proper account of the full range of barriers faced by people with disabilities and health conditions, making the assessment and reassessment processes as simple, transparent and proportionate as possible and ensuring that robust evaluation and monitoring processes are in place. We need to bring all the strands together—the bedroom tax, housing, the welfare reform and the changes to legal aid. All those things will have an impact on people’s capacity to deal with the real changes occurring in their lives day by day. I ask all Members to support the motion.
Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab)
Research published in March by the think-tank Demos and by the disability charity Scope, which my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) mentioned earlier, revealed that by 2017-18, 3.7 million disabled people will collectively lose £28 billion as a result of the Government’s cumulative benefit changes. If Scope and Demos can do a cumulative impact assessment, why cannot the Government? That is a staggering expropriation from arguably the most deprived and disadvantaged section of the entire population and it is perhaps worth rehearsing quickly the range of the cumulative impact: the incapacity benefit reassessment; the reassessment of the personal independence payments; the overall cap; the universal credit; the time limitation of employment support allowance; the change to local housing allowance; the bedroom tax; the abolition of the independent living fund; the 1% cap on benefit uprating; the localisation of and 10% cut in council tax benefit; and the 1% cap on various benefits and tax credits. That is the range of it.
The study found that 123,000 disabled people faced three benefit cuts that will lose them an income of £18,000 in the five years to 2018. A group of nearly 5,000 disabled people will suffer a combination of six benefit cuts, losing a total of £23,000 each over five years. That works out as £88 per week per person, which for people on the breadline is absolutely huge.
The gratuitous harshness of the Government’s treatment of disabled people comes out mostly in the initial attack on and forthcoming abolition of the independent living fund. The ILF gave new life, engagement, mobility and participation to severely disabled people. Two years ago, the Government closed the fund to any new claims and now they will devolve it to local authorities. Let me ask the Minister some questions—and I expect a reply. Will that be ring-fenced when it goes to local authorities? Will it be the same level of expenditure, with no reduction in public spending of the kind that the Government slipped in when they made the switch from DLA to PIP or in the devolution of the council tax benefit?
Then we have Atos and the work capability assessments. Frankly, the ESA system is simply not working. A Citizens Advice study found that nearly half the Atos reports included inaccuracies that were so serious that they would have affected the decisions made and 70% of them included incorrect factual recordings of the history given. Reviews have found considerable variability in decision making, and there is a 42% success rate at appeal; the rate is much higher when the individual disabled person is represented. There is a very low employment rate among claimants 12 to 18 months after the decision.
The inherent problems that remain with the ESA are legion. The descriptors do not capture a person’s state of health in a way that reflects their ability to work, while medical evidence from those who have detailed, accurate and relevant knowledge is ignored. The assessors lack the time, ability and medical knowledge to understand an individual’s condition and how it relates to work and the assessment is irrelevant to work because no attempt is made to discover what work an individual is supposed to be capable of doing.
As so many disabled persons who have been through the process have said, the worst aspect of the employment and support allowance assessment is fear and insecurity. There is the belief that a test has been created for people to fail, no matter how sick they are; the stress that makes ill-health worse; and the stress and uncertainty of repeated assessments, which are like a sword of Damocles hanging over people perpetually.
My hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) referred to Calum’s List. I thought 30 people had died; he says it is now 33. In nine cases, the family believe that stress triggered the death, and in 20 the person took their own life. Who is responsible for this bleak, unforgiving trail of misery? Behind Atos stands the Department for Work and Pensions, with its guidelines, regulations and descriptors, which underpin the Atos work; its targets—which are, of course, denied—for return-to-work decisions; and the sanctions to make sure that the assessors produce results.
Ian Mearns
One of the things that I find regrettable about this debate and previous debates that I have taken part in is that Government Members feel as though they are engaged in some sort of academic exercise; they are talking about statistics, rather than the impacts on real people.
Mr Meacher
I have certainly felt that. The Minister made an extraordinarily complacent and bland statement; he read out a speech that he was given by a civil servant as though he was seeing it for the first time. [Interruption.] I am referring not to the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey), but the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban); we will judge the Under-Secretary in a moment. The speeches from those on the Government Benches have been extraordinarily disappointing, but I want to keep to the subject of the debate.
Behind the DWP stands the Treasury and the Chancellor, who have parcelled out targets for huge expenditure cuts, as we all know, without any prior investigation whatever of the extreme variability in human disability, let alone the wide differentials in job opportunities across the country. This is not an exercise in genuine social policy, but a preconceived shoehorning of the sensitivities of disability into the Chancellor’s unremitting cuts agenda.
If the Under-Secretary wishes me to be a little more positive, I will be, gladly. It is not at all difficult to see what needs to be done. We should make much more use of evidence and the claimant’s own doctor; significantly increase the time available for an assessment; improve assessors’ questioning technique, and preferably transfer that whole function back to the national health service; provide the claimant with a copy of the medical report and an opportunity to discuss inaccuracies with the decision maker; and, above all, greatly improve the descriptors.
I am sorry, but not surprised, that the Minister who spoke earlier has fled the Chamber; it is a pity. As he knows well—the Under-Secretary also knows; I spoke to her about this yesterday—for five months, I have been asking the Minister to meet a representative delegation to discuss these matters. I had to give the Minister a prior commitment—he seemed to need it for self-protection—that it would be a constructive engagement. It will be; we want to work with the Government to make things better, because we care about disabled people far more than we do about attacking the Government, although they deserve that we should. Given that the issue involves 1.5 million seriously disabled people, the reluctance of the Minister responsible, and his procrastination for so long a period as five months, is utterly scandalous. In the Under-Secretary’s reply to the debate, to which I shall listen very carefully, I expect her to tell us exactly when the Minister will meet us.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow my right hon. Friend and neighbour the Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher). I fully support what he said.
I support the motion for a cumulative impact assessment by October 2013, and, like my right hon. Friend, I too speak in particular on behalf of my constituents. I am increasingly in contact with constituents who are struggling and bearing the brunt of the welfare reforms. In addition, other people have contacted me through various social media. As others have said, the effects are beyond a scale that has ever been experienced and unfortunately I believe that they will increase.
We already know from the Institute for Fiscal Studies analysis of the Budget that the 40% of poorest households in the country will be worse off as a result of Budget cuts. Within that group the sick and the disabled are even more vulnerable. We have heard that analysis undertaken on behalf of Scope estimated that the six separate social security cuts, including changes to disability living allowance, employment support allowance, the bedroom tax, and the 1% cap on social security measures and the independent living fund will affect 3.7 million people by 2018. In total they will lose £28.3 billion.
From that analysis we know that more than 26,000 people will have the triple whammy of losing ESA and DLA and having their ESA capped at 1%, losing between £17,000 and £23,000. That is in the context of a flatlining economy. Many disabled people do work and many more want to work, but it is impossible in the current economic climate, with an employment rate that is now lower than in 2008. On top of that there is the spiralling cost of living, with energy prices rising by 11% last year and food prices by 29% since 2009.
Councils’ allocation of funding has been pared to the bone, with the average budget being cut by 28%. In my own council area nearly 50% of the budget has been cut, with another £50 million to find by 2015. As social care represents 25% of the council’s budget, the further impact that the cuts will have on this most vulnerable group is frightening.
I attended a meeting with disabled people, their families and carers in Oldham recently, along with my right hon. Friend. Their fear for the future was palpable. They were terrified, particularly parents with adult disabled children, who did not know what would happen to their children and what they could expect. Their fear was born out of their experience in the past and what had been before. We have seen changes in opportunities for disabled people to live more normal lives. They feel that their situation is going backwards.
The Joint Committee on Human Rights has stated that
“we conclude that there is a risk of retrogression of the UK’s obligations under Article 19”—
which enshrines the right to independent living for disabled people—
“as a result of the cumulative impact of spending cuts and reforms.”
The Committee called on the Government
“to improve its capacity to conduct equality impact assessments, in particular to go beyond piecemeal analysis of each measure by assessing the proposed provisions as a whole, including their cumulative impact on individuals and groups, from an equality perspective”.
As has been said, if Demos can do that on behalf of Scope, why on earth cannot the Government do it? It is disgraceful.
We have heard about some of the issues relating to the work capability assessment. There was a case in my constituency of somebody having a heart attack while he was in the middle of going through a WCA. He was told by the nurse conducting the WCA that he had to go to hospital, and then he received a letter telling him that he had been sanctioned. What on earth is going on? This is not the behaviour of a civilised Government.
I want to put on the record that this is about Government choices. The choices that the Government make are underpinned by their ideology. They are demonising people who are receiving benefits, creating antipathy and resentment in people who are not receiving benefits, creating an “us and them” culture through this antipathy to social security recipients, and then quietly dismantling our welfare system.
As I have said before, and as I will carry on saying, I am proud of the welfare system we developed. It was born out of the second world war, when we really were all in it together. I want to retain that model, with its principles of inclusion, support and security for all, protecting any one of us should we fall on hard times or become disabled. It ensures that we have the basics and dignity in our lives.
Fortunately, the British public are starting to see through what the Government are doing. As British social attitudes surveys consistently show, they want a fairer and more equal society, not a divided one. Trend analysis that I have undertaken in conjunction with sociologists from Oxford university shows that, rather than losing support for social security, the British people are a good barometer of what is right and just. When the myths about what the Government are doing are exposed, most people do not want a further downgrading of social security.
Instead of demonising the poor and the disabled, we need to get the economy moving and tackle the massive private sector debt of our financial institutions, which is 400% of GDP and rising. That is the real issue, not sovereign debt, as the Government like to say, and it is getting worse. We should not be giving tax breaks to the wealthiest in society—£3 billion to over 300,000 people earning more than £150,000 a year—at the expense of the most vulnerable. I think that says it all.
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
I support the Opposition motion. I was sad to hear some of the comments from the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), because no Opposition Members have tried to patronise or insult disabled people. The fact is that we recognise that financial equality for everyone must be preserved, and we know that disabled people will be fundamentally more affected by the proposed changes than others.
Therefore, the fact that we are requesting something very simple—an assessment of the cumulative impact of these right-wing changes on disabled people—is nothing unusual. In fact, as a responsible Opposition who stand up for people, that is exactly what we should be asking for. It was not very helpful when the Minister, in response to my intervention, effectively said, “Well, the previous Government never carried out an assessment, so why should we?” That is just not good enough. They are the Government and they have brought in far-reaching changes, so the assessment should be carried out.
I also know from the Remploy factory in my constituency, which I visited when it was still open, and from speaking to many disabled people, some of whom are my constituents, that they want to work and to fulfil their potential. However, all the changes that are being made will have an impact on them, and we want to protect them.
I want to talk briefly about some of the proposed changes and why we think they will have more of an impact on the disabled. In the spending review in June this year, the Chancellor announced that for the first time ever there will be a cap on the UK’s welfare spending through changes to the annual managed expenditure. That means that if demand for disability benefit rises in future, there is a substantial risk that disabled people will lose vital financial lifelines. The impact will be that they will be left more exposed to trade-offs within the cap. If the need for housing benefit rises sharply one year, there is a risk that disability benefit will be a lower spending priority.
The Welfare Reform Act 2012 introduced a number of measures, one of which was a new single benefit—universal credit—to replace six income-based benefits and tax credits for people of working age. Around 2 million households will see their income drop when universal credit is introduced, and disabled people will be particularly affected. While the average household will be worse off by £26, the average disabled household will be worse off by £37.
Furthermore, the halving of support for disabled children from £57 a week to £28 a week could see a reduction in income for families with disabled children of up to £1,366 a year—more than £20,000 over the course of a childhood. It is estimated that this change will affect about 100,000 disabled children. The removal of the £58 a week severe disability premium will have a profound impact, affecting 230,000 disabled adults and potentially costing them more than £3,000 a year.
The introduction of the personal independence payment, which is to be rolled out following the abolition of disability living allowance, means that over the next five years as many as 600,000 disabled people will lose £2.62 billion of support. The reforms mean that a disabled person could lose between £20.55 and £131.50 a week in support for the costs of living at home, such as preparing a cooked meal, or the costs of getting out and about aided by a wheelchair.
Another change that is being introduced is the contributions-based employment and support allowance, which is to be subjected to a 365-day limit. It applies to disabled people in the work-related activity group who are assessed as not being able to work immediately but who could, with help and support, return to the labour market in future. This will affect some 700,000 people by the year 2015-16, and of those 40% will lose their ESA completely. This change could force disabled people back into work when they are not ready for it—and, let us face it, there are not many jobs out there in any event—and push them into disposing of any assets they have, with their partners perhaps having to cut back on their working hours. The effects of these changes are likely to be compounded by the Government’s recent decision, set out in the autumn statement, to increase the value of this benefit by only 1% instead of 2.2%, which is the current level of inflation.
Much has been said about the bedroom tax, which reduces housing benefit for a social housing tenant whose accommodation is deemed to be larger than they need and will fall disproportionately on households with a disabled person. The DWP estimates that 670,000 people are under-occupying accommodation in the social rented sector, and of those, two thirds are disabled.
There is also the benefits uprating. Although the Government have confirmed that PIP, ESA for the support group and disability-related tax credits will rise in line with inflation, ESA for the work-related activity group, housing benefit and working tax credit are set to rise by only 1% for three years. Given the cumulative impact of all these reforms, the Government must surely carry out an assessment.
Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)
We have heard some excellent speeches outlining the cumulative impact that the Government’s policies will have on disabled people. Many Members’ concerns relate directly to decisions taken by this Government, but many such decisions will be taken by the Scottish Government, by the Welsh Government, or by local authorities, who are also having their funding cut. It is an incredibly complex issue given all the various factors that are leading to disabled people having their living standards cut.
In the area that I represent, of course, we have a devolved Administration—the Scottish Government—and they have carried out work on these issues. A committee has been set up in the Scottish Parliament to look at welfare reform in Scotland. It estimates that in my area, North Ayrshire, £51 million will be taken out of the economy in 2015 by the various changes that have already been put through this Parliament. In the two years leading up to the general election there will probably be a range of further attacks that will have further impacts on the area I represent. The figure of £51 million relates not just to those who are disabled, but to those who will be affected by the various changes in different ways.
The incredibly powerful emotions under discussion are being generated by campaigns outside this place. They have not been cobbled together by special advisers in a back room; they are being led by disabled people themselves, nationally and through various organisations. Some of those organisations have been criticised in this debate, but, to be frank, some hon. Members have spoken ill because they do not appreciate how difficult it is for disabled people to organise themselves to campaign on these issues or how many obstacles they face in getting involved in the political process. The campaigns have involved not only national organisations but many local organisations. In my constituency, for example, the Three Towns carers organisation, which supports carers, campaigns on many of these issues and brings their impact to the attention of politicians.
Whenever I hold events in my constituency on issues such as the bedroom tax and welfare changes, I am visited increasingly often by carers who care for people with disabilities who cannot look after themselves. On hearing their stories, I have absolutely no doubt that it makes no economic or social sense to target this group of people. Often they live in accommodation that has already received a great deal of state investment. Often they live in social housing properties on which a large amount of money has been spent to adapt them to meet the needs of people with disabilities. Putting such people in a situation whereby they may not be able to continue to live in their property makes no sense whatsoever, even on economic grounds.
I was exceptionally pleased to hear the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) on the abolition of the independent living fund. The people who come to see me who care for people with some of the worst forms of disability have a massive fear of the threat to take away the ILF money that enables them to live independently.
The reality is that not all parts of the country will be affected equally. The changes will have a greater effect on certain parts, including deprived areas where people do not live as long as those in wealthier areas. The cumulative impact of an industrial past on such areas means that far more people there are reliant on the benefits under discussion and that, statistically, more of them suffer from illnesses and disabilities than people elsewhere. Members of those communities therefore have less resilience to be able to deal with these kinds of cuts.
Cathy Jamieson
My hon. Friend is speaking passionately and eloquently. Does she share my concern about the apparent inconsistencies in the application of discretionary housing payments? For some families it appears to be another layer of means-testing, rather than an assessment of their needs.
Katy Clark
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who represents a neighbouring constituency and whose constituents face similar issues to my own. We heard earlier that the discretionary fund is completely unable to deal with the scale of the problem. I think it was suggested that one in 10 people will be able to get proper compensation from the funds available. There may well be discrepancies throughout the country; geographically, different parts of the country will face different situations.
We know from various studies in Scotland that £1 billion is expected to be taken out of the pockets of those who currently receive disability benefits. Citizens Advice has said that across the UK up to half a million disabled people will lose out, just because of the change to universal credit. As we move towards those changes and the personal independence payment, a cumulative range of impacts will disproportionately affect those with disabilities.
Neither party in the coalition Government has any mandate for such an attack on working people or for targeting those with disabilities. I believe the British people have the right to know the truth, and we should not rely on charities and independent organisations to give us information. We know that the Government do not like impact assessments—we have seen in other areas of policy that they are completely unwilling to provide such assessments regarding what will happen to women or people from ethnic backgrounds. Today we must make it clear that we expect the Government to tell the truth about the impact of their policies on disabled people. If we do that, we will get the support of the British public.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
To justify many of their benefit changes the Government have had to construct a narrative that the system required a complete overhaul. I suspect we shall hear that from the Minister when she responds to the debate, so I shall pre-empt it with a narrative about the disability living allowance.
The DLA is old-fashioned and too reliant on physical disabilities. The Minister is fond of saying that the new system will be better for those with learning difficulties, mental health problems and so on, but if overall numbers are to be reduced—nobody has suggested they will not be—and more people with mental health problems are included, who will be excluded? We need to know that.
It has been argued that DLA is too easy to obtain, but more than half of all claims are refused when first applied for. Part of the idea that DLA is too easy to get was set out to the House again by the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng). He claimed that most people get DLA by filling in a form, which is all they have to do, but that is simply not the case. Figures from the Department for Work and Pensions from 2010 state that 16% of decisions are made without “additional” information, other than the form, but that does not mean that medical information is not provided because people send it with the form. Some 36% of decisions are made on the basis of further non-medical information—remember that there may already be medical information—such as phoning the claimant to get more information or speaking to a carer, and 48% of decisions are made on the basis of further medical information or assessment. Worryingly, in a press release from as recently as June this year, the DWP again repeated that more than half of claims are made without any medical information. It is not helpful to keep repeating things that are not accurate.
The other accusation about DLA was that claims are never looked at again, and the June press release stated that 71% of current recipients “get” indefinite rewards. The tense is important because if we read “get”, we presume that something is still ongoing. In fact, in 2010, 77% of new claims were for fixed periods, and 23% were indefinite. The figure in the press release goes back to 1992, when many more indefinite claims were granted. Things have already changed. If we start making policy on the basis of false premises, and create a straw man—as the Government constantly do to justify what they are doing—the chances are that we will get things wrong.
One group of people who are very badly affected by these changes are those in the 45 to 65 age group. If they fall ill, they lose income from their job. For many couples, that means a halving of their income, and of course they will have higher costs for such things as heating. Many lose employment and support allowance after a year if they are in the work-related activity group, often because they have a partner’s earnings, even if that partner works only part time; savings towards their retirement, which they will now have to use up before they ever get to retirement age; or an early retirement pension. Given the forthcoming increase in pension age, people will be in that limbo for a lot longer. The people who have tried to help themselves are being hit particularly hard.
The same group may be among those who do not receive the personal independence payment. Some 66% of those on the lowest rate of DLA are aged over 45, so they are likely to be the most affected. That is also the age at which illness and disability are most likely to occur. If they are tenants, they are also likely to be affected by the bedroom tax. Those are important issues for that group.
Ministers constantly tell us, “Well, we’re not doing a cumulative impact assessment because the previous Government did not do one.” However, it is this Government who boast about carrying out a comprehensive and revolutionary reshaping of the welfare system. If they do not do a cumulative impact assessment when they are doing that, when would they? It is important that that is carried out properly so that we can see what is going on and make the necessary adjustments rather than simply say it will be all right on the night.
Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)
First, I thank all the Members who have contributed to today’s Opposition day debate. I particularly thank my colleagues who have spoken. My hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) highlighted yet again some of the difficulties related to the work capability assessment and Atos, as he consistently has for many months. I pay particular tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke), a former shadow spokesperson on disability issues. He bears the scars of trying to get the first Disability Discrimination Act through the House in the teeth of many years of consistent opposition from the then Government. He stands well regarded among many disabled people for the challenges that he took up on their behalf.
I also thank my hon. Friends the Members for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell) and for Gateshead (Ian Mearns), my right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) and my hon. Friends the Members for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams), for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi), for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) and for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore).
I have highlighted my right hon. and hon. Friends’ contributions, and once again we have seen a certain level of inactivity and disregard among Government Members for debates on disability issues. Three Members have spoken from the Government Benches, and I will come to their comments, but those of us who have attended these debates over the past year or so will recognise that today’s poor turnout and low number of contributions from Government Members is not unusual. That is either because of inactivity, or because they just could not care, or—maybe I will be generous—because they are so embarrassed that they cannot come and defend their own Government’s policies in this Chamber or Westminster Hall.
The Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey), will know that this is not the first time that Members have asked for a cumulative impact assessment on how Government changes are affecting disabled people. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead, who unfortunately is not in his place at the moment, secured a debate on the matter in December.
We have found out one or two interesting facts today. We now have a Minister of State, the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban), who refuses to meet Members of Parliament unless he has set down the conditions beforehand. Frankly, that is pretty unheard of. I have never come across a Minister who wants the terms of reference—the “positive arguments”, as he put it—before he engages in a discussion. Surely a Minister who is advocating a policy should be prepared to discuss it with Members and representatives of their constituents in private conversation. [Interruption.] No, I say to the Minister that if he wants to be seen as a good, listening Minister, he needs to change his style and start to meet Members of Parliament.
We have heard from colleagues from all over the country. The debate was prompted by—
Mrs McGuire
No, the hon. Lady has not been in the Chamber all day. [Interruption.] She has been attending a Select Committee. Forgive me, but I still will not take her intervention. The hon. Lady was not here when the Minister made his comment—
Mrs McGuire
I will not be sidetracked.
We have seen the number of people who signed Pat’s petition and the WOW petition. The Government’s response to the WOW petition—that they are limited in what cumulative analysis they are able to undertake because of the complexity of the modelling required—is revealing. There are organisations with limited resources that can put together a reasonable cumulative impact assessment. The Minister of State and the Under-Secretary with responsibility for the disabled have a range of experts they can bring to the fore to put together a cumulative impact assessment. Frankly, some of the excuses we have heard today give us an indication of why they do not want to do that.
I hope I am wrong, but the Under-Secretary will no doubt give us two justifications: that Labour did not undertake an assessment; and that it is impossible to do it. The previous Labour Government did not do it because they did not—no previous Government have—put together such a torrent of changes that will impact on the lives of disabled people. [Interruption.] If the Minister of State is so clear that they are positive changes, why is he running away from a cumulative impact assessment? He undermined the Government case on the impossibility of doing an assessment when he answered my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden). He said that cumulative impacts are a coalition initiative. Where is the initiative? If he is parading on 4 July that it is a coalition initiative, what has happened to it between 4 July and 9 July? Where has it gone? It has disappeared into the ether like some of his words this afternoon.
What we have heard today is the torrent of change, from the bedroom tax that will not provide an extra bedroom to accommodate equipment a disabled child might need, the families of disabled children who will be £1,300 per year less well off than they were under the old system, to the changes in ESA and the abolition of DLA, with no recognition that even those who are not “the most severely disabled”—the words the Minister will always use—still have additional costs because of their disability.
The hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) said that he was angry. I was sorely disappointed by his contribution, because he attempted to paint the people who want to talk about a cumulative impact assessment as extremists. I hope he is not saying that Disability Rights UK, the Joint Committee on Human Rights, the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the Royal National Institute of Blind People, Mind, Scope, Leonard Cheshire Disability and Carers UK among others, including tens of thousands of people who signed Pat’s petition, are extremists.
Paul Maynard
Will the right hon. Lady answer the question her colleague could not answer earlier? Does she believe it is extreme to try to close every special school and every day care centre? Does she not regard that as extreme?
Mrs McGuire
With the greatest respect, the hon. Gentleman attempted to put everybody who has asked for a cumulative impact assessment into an extremist box. If he wants to debate exclusive and mainstream education, I suggest we have a debate on that. There are differing opinions, but disagreeing with him does not make someone an extremist. [Interruption.] I make an exception for the Secretary of State; there’s an extremist, on certain issues, if ever there was one! I ask him, is the Children’s Commissioner, who released a report only last month, an extremist? She said that
“families with disabled children are hit harder by the cuts under all disability definitions”.
It is not extremists saying this; it is not even just Opposition Members—a whole swathe of people are saying it.
This is not just about welfare benefits, and on that I almost agree with the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys: this is not about putting disabled people into a benefits box. I agree that the social model is the right model for disability, but we cannot have a social model if people do not know whether they can have a spare bedroom for their wheelchair or if they do not have enough food on the table because money is being taken from them. [Interruption.] I do not know if the Secretary of State is contributing to the debate or just chuntering from the Front Bench. The DWP press office did not do Ministers any credit when it said:
“There’s a lot of alarmist stories about our welfare reforms but the truth is this Government is absolutely committed to supporting disabled people”.
It might look like that from the top of Caxton house, but it does not feel like it in the real world, as some of the testimonies we have heard today verify.
This country has signed up to and ratified the UN convention on the rights of persons with disabilities, which I was delighted my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth raised. Is the Minister truly confident that such an onslaught against disabled people is consistent with our responsibilities under the convention, particularly article 19?
I wish to make a genuine offer to the Government that does not ask for anything more than we would expect from any Government: a true and accurate assessment of what their policies mean for the people they govern. We are not asking for coalition Members to vote against any major policy—although I was delighted to hear the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) say he had strong reservations about certain aspects of the policy—and we are not even asking the Minister or her colleagues to overturn any decisions they have made; we are asking why, if Ministers and coalition Members are so confident that their policies across benefits, social care, access to legal aid and independent living are right, the Government do not do what they should have done months ago and make use of the fantastic policy and analytical capacity in the DWP and the civil service. If it does nothing else, it might help the Prime Minister, who gave a wrong answer this afternoon over the impact of the overnight exemption from the bedroom tax on the families of disabled children. It might help him to understand his own policies.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)
I welcome this opportunity to put fact where there has been confusion and information where there has been misinformation from the Opposition; to explain the context of the welfare reforms, the vision and the collaborative work done with disabled people and their organisations; to reply to the points, one by one, that I have heard today; and to explain why the cumulative impact assessment is neither possible nor the correct approach, because doing one would provide inaccurate information—something, surely, that no one in the House would want to support.
To be clear, the Government’s overarching ambition is to enable disabled people to fulfil their ambition to be full and equal members of society. That is what we aim to do, so I am pleased to inform the House that, despite what we have heard today, under this Government, disabled people are already experiencing improved outcomes and reduced inequalities as against non-disabled people. Data published last week show that since 2009-10 disabled people have seen improved achievements at degree and GCSE levels and improved employment rates, and there is a reduced proportion of disabled people in relative income poverty. Inequality has also been reduced in a number of areas. The gap in outcomes compared with non-disabled people has narrowed for GCSE achievements, employment rates, income poverty for families with someone who is disabled, and in reported choice and control over people’s lives—something I would have thought the House would welcome.
Esther McVey
One thing I am sure we can all agree on is the complexity of disability and the very different life experiences that everyone lives through, so let me talk about the range of people we are dealing with: from people like Stephen Hawking, who has a brain the size of the planet but is very physically disabled, to people who are mentally severely disabled but physically very able, and everybody else in between—from fluctuating to sensory to cognitive. We have to support each one of those. We have to find individual, tailor-made support for each of those people and provide it in an holistic approach, and that is what we are doing, bringing together social care, health, education and all the benefits. What I will say, before—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. The hon. Lady is not for giving way. It is up to her whether she wishes to give way, and I think she has signalled often enough.
Esther McVey
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. As I have been left with limited time and have many answers to give, I will not be giving way to the right hon. Gentleman, but I will raise some of his points. I would like to point out—he overlooked this—that we spend £50 billion a year on support and benefits for disabled people. That is a fifth higher than the average in Europe, double the rate in America spends and six times that in Japan.
The right hon. Gentleman made an unusual speech today, talking about his new single personal budget. As per normal, we heard no details whatever. How would it be funded? Would it be means-tested? Would he abolish PIP? The right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) was asked whether he would reverse the spare rooms subsidy—something he said he would not be doing—but obviously the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) thinks he is above his own leader. He is changing his policy on the hoof.
Esther McVey
I have said that I will not be giving way to the right hon. Gentleman, because he spoke rubbish for hours. We will go to—[Interruption.] Crikey! Temper, temper!
The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) asked various questions about the work capability assessment and Atos. I really do not get how Labour Members can forget that they introduced it in 2008 or that they gave the contract to Atos until 2015.
Mr Deputy Speaker
Order. We will have one Member stood at the Dispatch Box, not two.
Esther McVey
I have got nearly two hours of questions to answer, so I will keep going.
The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) talked about the Remploy figures in Stoke. I can tell him that 110 people left the factory and that 82 engaged with the extra support we were giving. Of those, 30 are now in work and 36 are on Work Choice.
The right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) talked about housing and the spare room subsidy. It is quite incredible that people are not looking at the complexities, at how social housing was not built, but collapsed under the previous Government—we are now building it—or at how the stock is used properly. One thing nobody talked about is the fact that among those on the waiting lists—the 1.8 million—are children who are disabled. There are people on those lists who are disabled. We are looking after those people too.
My hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) talked about—
Tom Greatrex
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Perhaps you could provide me with some guidance. The Minister is obviously choosing not to give way to those on the Opposition Front Bench, but is it appropriate or courteous for her to refuse to give way when she is referring to a point that I have raised in the debate?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
That is not a point of order. It is in the hands of the Minister whether she wishes to give way or not.
Esther McVey
My time appears to have been squeezed, but I am giving the House the facts and the reality of the situation. I have very little time to do that.
When the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) talked about a cumulative impact assessment, and about the “Destination Unknown” report, did he know—perhaps he did not—that the report was based on just six households and that it ran to over 100 pages? The people who have talked about cumulative impact assessments today do not realise that they are not based on the complexities of the issue or that the benefits will not have been rolled out until 2017. We cannot stop part-way. It is a dynamic benefit, so none of that is possible.
The Opposition do not seem to understand that, as we cannot do a cumulative impact assessment in the way that they suggest, we have to look at the vision and at what we are trying to create and ask how we are going to get it right. There are key things that we do with that. We have slowed down the process hugely to ensure that we monitor it and look at the progression and at the roll-out, and should anything along the way not be in line with our overall vision, we would stop and alter it. We have done that throughout. That is what we do when we cannot do a cumulative impact assessment. I do not give out misinformation; we get it right. We will also have independent reviews in 2014 to ensure that we are getting it right. Many of the changes, particularly those involving PIP and DLA, will not involve looking at those on indefinite awards until October 2015, after all the analysis has been done.
I am amazed that the Opposition ruggedly pursue something, knowing that they could not do it. As the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) said, Labour never did this. There was a reason for that, but we have found a way round it, which is to analyse the process as we go along. We are implementing very small roll-outs in order to get this right.
I smiled when I heard Citizens Advice being quoted frequently today. Is that the same Citizens Advice that hired Polly Billington, a Labour adviser, in November 2012? She will be head of its campaigns and communications, and is a former senior adviser to the right hon. Member for Doncaster North. Is that why we have to have those definitive quotes all the time? I find it so. Maybe that is why the Opposition are now smiling.
I also want to refer to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), who spoke passionately about everyone fulfilling their potential. That is key to what we are doing. Our latest document, called “Making it Happen” came out on 2 July, and it was produced in collaboration with disabled people and their organisations. This is about supporting them and finding out what their needs, their aspirations, their desires are, and finding out what they want to do and how they want to be portrayed. They have the same dreams as every one of us—yes, they want a job; yes, they want to get married; and yes, they want a family life—and we are supporting them in that.
That is what universal credit is all about. It is about helping people to get into work, to do as little or as much as they can do. It is about giving them extra support, and about tailored allowances. It is also about a tapered relief, which is something that the Labour Government never introduced. Under them, the system was very statist, with people being told, “You must do 16 hours”, and a 98% tax rate sometimes being applied. We are not doing that.
It is taking a long time to get this right, but it is the right thing to do and I am very proud indeed of what we are doing—
Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab)
claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).
Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.
Question agreed to.
Question put accordingly (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the original words stand part of the Question.
Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)
I beg to move,
That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) Order 2013, which was laid before this House on 8 July, be approved.
The Government are determined to do all they can to minimise the threat from terrorism to the UK and our interests abroad. Proscription is an important part of the Government’s strategy to tackle terrorist activities. We propose, through the order, to add both Jama’atu Ahlis Sunna Lidda'awati wal-Jihad, more widely known as Boko Haram, and Minbar Ansar Deen, also known as Ansar al-Sharia UK, to the list of international terrorist organisations, amending schedule 2 to the Terrorism Act 2000. This is the 12th proscription order under that Act.
Schedule 3 of the Act provides a power for the Home Secretary to proscribe an organisation if she believes that it is currently “concerned in terrorism”. The Act specifies that an organisation is concerned in terrorism if it commits or participates in acts of terrorism, prepares for terrorism, promotes or encourages terrorism, including the unlawful glorification of terrorism, or is otherwise concerned in terrorism. If the test is met, the Home Secretary may exercise her discretion to proscribe the organisation, having taken into account a number of factors. Those factors are: the nature and scale of an organisation’s activities; the specific threat that it poses to the United Kingdom; the specific threat that it poses to British nationals overseas; the organisation’s presence in the United Kingdom; and the need to support other members of the international community in tackling terrorism.
Given the wide-ranging impact of proscription, the Home Secretary exercises her power to proscribe only after thoroughly reviewing the available relevant information and evidence on the organisation. This includes open source material, intelligence material and advice that reflects consultation across government, including with the intelligence and law enforcement agencies. These decisions are taken with great care by the Home Secretary and it is right that the case for proscribing new organisations must be approved by both Houses.
Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)
Can the Minister tell me, as someone who has been on the sharp end of attack by Muslims Against Crusades, whether having organisations out in the open where they can be monitored is preferable to proscribing organisations, which makes it harder to monitor them?
James Brokenshire
I note my hon. Friend’s comment. Clearly, his own experience was very shocking and I well understand why he would wish to intercede in the debate to make that point clearly. Proscription can be an important mechanism to disrupt activity. We therefore believe that it is an appropriate mechanism to send a strong message that terrorist organisations are not tolerated in the UK and to act as a deterrent to their operating here. It also means that an organisation is outlawed and is unable to operate.
It is a criminal offence for a person to belong to a proscribed organisation, invite support for a proscribed organisation, arrange a meeting in support of that organisation, or wear clothing or carry articles in public which arouse reasonable suspicion that they may be a member or supporter of such an organisation. We believe that proscription is a powerful mechanism to disrupt and take firm action against terrorist groups, which is why 49 international and 14 Northern Irish terrorist organisations are currently proscribed.
On the specific groups before the House this evening, having carefully considered all the evidence we firmly believe that both organisations, Boko Haram and Minbar Ansar Deen, are currently concerned in terrorism. Right hon. and hon. Members will appreciate that I am unable to comment on specific intelligence, but I can provide a brief summary of each group.
Boko Haram is a prolific terrorist organisation based in Nigeria whose ultimate goal is to establish the Islamic caliphate. Seeking to undermine democratic government through its campaign of violence and attacks, it has targeted all sections of Nigerian society—Muslims, Christians, rich, poor, civilians and members of the security forces alike—as well as members of the international community. For example, an attack near Abuja on Christmas day 2011 that killed at least 26 people, and an attack on a bus station in Kano City in March 2013 that killed over 60, were both attributed to the organisation. The organisation has also sought to attack international targets in Nigeria. In August 2011, it claimed responsibility for a suicide attack against the UN building in Abuja that killed 26. It has also targeted westerners for kidnapping in the past few years.
I stress to the House that the Government are aware of the concerns over the approach used by the Nigerian Government to defeat Boko Haram. While the UK Government continue to work with Nigeria to fight terrorism, we make it clear that human rights must be respected at all times in our work to defeat terrorism across the globe.
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for mentioning some of the disgusting attacks by Boko Haram in Nigeria. We live in an interconnected world and I am sure that the Government of Nigeria will be pleased at the action being taken by the British Government today. Has my hon. Friend had any conversations with the Nigerian Government with respect to the motion before the House?
James Brokenshire
What I can say to my hon. Friend is that Boko Haram has carried out indiscriminate, mass-casualty attacks, and clearly we are conscious of all the events I have outlined. We believe that proscribing that organisation shows our condemnation of its activities very clearly and will prevent it operating in the UK and give the police powers to tackle any UK-based support for it, so proscription is an important step. I cannot comment on specific discussions we have had with the Nigerian Government, but clearly those continue. I stress the point I made earlier about condemning any human rights abuses in that regard. I think it is important to state that in this context.
The second group we are proscribing is Minbar Ansar Deen, a Salafist group based in the UK that promotes and encourages terrorism. It distributes material through its online forum, which promotes terrorism by encouraging individuals to travel overseas to engage in extremist activity, specifically fighting. The group is not related to Ansar al-Sharia groups in other countries. Proscribing it sends a clear message that we condemn its terrorism activities.
Decisions on when and whether to proscribe an organisation are taken only following extensive consideration and in the light of emerging intelligence. It is important that decisions are built on a robust evidence base, do not adversely impact on any ongoing investigations and support other members of the international community in the global fight against terrorism. It of course would not be appropriate for us to discuss specific intelligence that leads to any decisions to proscribe, but clearly we keep the whole area under constant focus.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
I am sure that the House will support what the Minister is proposing, so he must not take anything I say as criticism of the Government’s decision. He will know that whenever the matter has come before the House I have raised the necessity of a time limit on some of these orders and, in particular, the report by the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, David Anderson QC. The Minister told the House almost exactly a year ago, on 4 July 2012, that the Government’s response would be published in due course. The Immigration Minister said on 22 November 2012 that it would be published shortly. When will it be published?
James Brokenshire
I know that this is an issue that the right hon. Gentleman has pursued through the Home Affairs Committee and through interventions in debates of this kind. I can tell him clearly that we have noted carefully the comments in David Anderson’s report about the de-proscription process and that we responded to the report in March. In that context, under the current regime any person affected by a proscription can submit an application to the Home Secretary requesting that she consider whether the organisation should be de-proscribed. The Home Secretary has received no de-proscription applications, and I understand that none was received by her predecessor since 2009. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that officials continue to explore options for improving the de-proscription process. That is under active consideration and we will inform Parliament of any resulting changes to the regime. Our current thinking is that there are ways in which the existing regime for de-proscription can be used effectively. We will report back to the House shortly, and I genuinely mean that—the right hon. Gentleman smiles. I assure him that this is under active consideration. There are issues that need to be worked through carefully, and we will report back to the House at the earliest opportunity. I say to him genuinely, the matter is being considered carefully and actively in the light of David Anderson’s recommendations in his report, and in looking more generally at the proscription regime, as well as de-proscription within it.
Keith Vaz
I am sorry to do this, because I like the Minister, but he has said absolutely nothing that he did not say a year ago. It is important to distinguish between the process, which we all know about, and the issue that David Anderson has raised about time-limiting orders. The Minister has used the words “under active consideration” and said that officials are doing this or that. That is all very well, but ultimately Ministers have to make a decision. Either they are in favour of a time limit or the order will be endless, subject to somebody’s application. We need to know precisely at some stage—not today, obviously.
James Brokenshire
As I said, we responded to David Anderson’s report in March. I understand that this matter is of concern to right hon. and hon. Members, and we are therefore examining how the existing de-proscription process can be used more effectively.
I hope that, following my comments, the House will be minded to support the proscription of both groups and support the Government’s focus and clear intent to combat terrorism in this country.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for his comments and for the letter dated 8 July from the Home Secretary to the shadow Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), setting out the Government’s proposals.
There has long been a tradition of cross-party co-operation wherever possible on issues of national security, and we are pleased to continue this by supporting the Government’s order today. As the Minister said, under section 3 of the Terrorism Act 2000 a group can be proscribed if the Home Secretary is persuaded that it
“(a) commits or participates in acts of terrorism,
(b) prepares for terrorism,
(c) promotes or encourages terrorism, or
(d) is otherwise concerned in terrorism.”
I appreciate that the Minister is restricted in what he can say about the evidence that the Home Secretary possesses about these groups. I thank him for the information that he has provided so far. On that basis, the Opposition are happy to support the order.
The Opposition are particularly pleased to support the proscription of Boko Haram. The evidence against this group is overwhelming. As the Minister said, it is responsible for several large-scale terrorist attacks, including those in Abuja and Kano, which claimed dozens of lives. It is right that the United Kingdom does everything it can to support the international efforts to combat this group. However, why has the Minister not taken action against Boko Haram earlier? In November last year, the Home Secretary laid an order to proscribe the group, Ansaru, which was debated in this House on 21 November. At that time, Ansaru had been identified as an organisation independent of Boko Haram for only 11 months, and Boko Haram had been directly implicated in several attacks at that time. In the House, I highlighted the strong links between Boko Haram and Ansaru, and asked why the Government were banning one and not the other. I am very pleased that the Government are now acting, but I would like the Minister to explain the delay. The Opposition are also happy to support the proscription of Ansar-al-Sharia on the basis that it is promoting or encouraging terrorism and therefore falls under section 3.
While we are looking at groups which promote or encourage terrorism, may I ask the Minister about Hizb ut-Tahrir? As he will be aware, over the past five years the status of Hizb ut-Tahrir has been of considerable interest in this House. In 2007, the Prime Minister, then Leader of the Opposition, repeatedly called for the group to be banned. In Prime Minister’s questions, he told the House:
“That organisation says that Jews should be killed wherever they are found. What more evidence do we need before we ban that organisation? It is poisoning the minds of young people.”—[Official Report, 4 July 2007; Vol. 462, c. 952.]
He was very clear then that he wanted the group banned, but at that time an assessment found that Hizb ut-Tahrir was not involved in terrorist activity in the United Kingdom. Since then, however, the situation has developed further. The 2011 review of the Prevent strategy identified Hizb ut-Tahrir as one of the groups targeting universities and attempting to radicalise students. Last week the Minister stated in a parliamentary written answer to me that the Government
“believe there is unambiguous evidence to indicate that some extremist organisations, including Hizb-ut-Tahrir (HuT), target specific universities and colleges…with the objective of influencing and recruiting students to support their agenda.”—[Official Report, 4 July 2013; Vol. 565, c. 786W.]
The horrific killing of Drummer Lee Rigby shows the danger of home-grown extremism originating from UK universities. In the light of that horrific event, it is appropriate that we now review all the measures we have put in place to tackle extremism on UK campuses and look afresh at what can be done to tackle those organisations that seek to recruit students to such causes.
Keith Vaz
I remember the very day that the Prime Minister spoke on this subject and I share my hon. Friend’s concern that this organisation has been involved in these activities. Does she agree that it is odd that the Prime Minister believes it should be proscribed, yet it has still not been proscribed?
Diana Johnson
The Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee makes a very good point. The Prime Minister spoke with passion and conviction about the issue in 2007 when he was Leader of the Opposition and I am surprised that, three years into this Government, the organisation has not been dealt with in the way he indicated it would be.
In the light of my comments and the reflections of the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, I urge the Minister to look again at, and to carry out an urgent review of, the status of Hizb ut-Tahrir, with a view to introducing an order to proscribe it. The Opposition would be very happy to co-operate with that course of action.
Finally, I want to return to two technical issues relating to proscription, both of which have been raised in this House on many occasions by my right hon. Friend the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, and to the recommendations of the independent reviewer of terrorism, David Anderson QC, with regard to proscription.
My first point is about the independent reviewer’s recommendation for a time limit on proscription and my second is about de-proscription. As I understand it, the only group to be de-proscribed achieved it by judicial review. The Minister has said that no applications have been made to the Home Secretary, but will he explain why there was a judicial review? It may have happened several years ago. May I also press the Minister on his assurance that we will receive a response at the earliest opportunity, to use his words? Given that time is pressing and Parliament will enter recess next week, is the Minister able to assure us that we will receive a response from the Home Office on this very important issue by the end of the year? It would be helpful to know that, rather than have to wait for a further order.
Mr Speaker
Order. Before I call the next speaker, I should point out to the House that on page 7 of today’s Order Paper the note to the item on the prevention and suppression of terrorism—a note with which I am sure all hon. Members are entirely familiar—correctly stated at the time of publication:
“The instrument has not yet been considered by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.”
I thought it proper further to advise the House that although that was true at the time of the publication of the Order Paper the instrument has since been considered today by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments under the august chairmanship of the hon. Member for Leeds East (Mr Mudie). No technical observations on the instrument have been made. I think that the House will feel that it is greatly to the credit of the Joint Committee that it has worked so expeditiously. We shall now proceed and I call Mr Patrick Mercer.
Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Ind)
It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), and to hear the comments of the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), under whom I served with great pleasure a few years ago.
No one in the House will have failed to be completely horrified by the death of Drummer Rigby a few weeks ago, in a manner that was not only bestial, but designed to shock and grab national and international headlines with the minimum amount of resource from our opponents. I fear we will see more of that. If all it takes is a sharp knife and a little twisted courage—if that is the right phrase—to carry out acts that hold international attention for several days, if not weeks, we must be prepared.
Over the years I have referred to how surprised the House, and indeed the nation, is when such an act occurs. We need only to remind ourselves that just such an act was planned three or four years ago against a Muslim soldier who had been serving in Afghanistan.
Patrick Mercer
I see the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee nodding; he and I discussed the issue at the time. That soldier was a Muslim, and on completion of his tour of duty in Afghanistan our enemies planned exactly the same sort of bestial—I use the word again—act. It is incumbent on us not to be surprised. Of course we will be horrified, but we should not be surprised. We must understand that this is about the most ghastly acts, particularly when combined with, I fear, the extraordinarily attention-grabbing technique of allowing individuals to carry out “suicide by cop”—I think that is the American phrase—by hanging around afterwards for more violence to be perpetrated and for their message to be broadcast even wider.
We have been warned. We know what attacks will be like in the future and how a small number of contorted and evil individuals can grab international headlines. That, of course, is what terrorism is about. It is not necessarily about killing or defeating; it is about terrorising, which is exactly what the very sad death of Drummer Rigby achieved for our opponents.
I commend the points the Government have made about Boko Haram, and the Opposition were correct to say that the group needs to be banned—we have perhaps been a little tardy about it in the past. If I may, I caution Opposition Members in their words of criticism for the Prime Minister over Hizb ut-Tahrir. The Chair of the Home Affairs Committee will remember that we debated that issue three or four years ago, and the then Leader of the Opposition made a precise point to the then Prime Minister about Hizb ut-Tahrir. However, with greatest respect to the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North, it is not as simple as that.
Diana Johnson
I was making the point that we are now several years on, circumstances have changed, and the Prevent strategy review identified that Hizb ut-Tahrir is operating in universities. That is a concern and ought to be looked at again.
Patrick Mercer
I entirely take the hon. Lady’s point, and my comments are not meant to be inimical. The fact remains, however, that there are sometimes clear legal reasons why it is difficult to pin down such organisations. The previous Prime Minister found exactly the same situation, and there are legal reasons why it is difficult to achieve. There are also good intelligence reasons why it is sometimes necessary—or advised—to be less robust with such organisations than might otherwise be the temptation. Simply put, if Hizb ut-Tahrir were to be banned, as appears likely at the moment, it would soon spring up as “son of” or “bride of” or “ghost of” Hizb ut-Tahrir, under a different name with a different faction and a different flag. We need to be cautious in how we criticise one another’s attitudes towards these things.
We have talked about home-grown terrorism and the sad death of Drummer Rigby, but what interests me most is that, unless my ears were distracted, I do not think anybody has talked about the home-grown terrorism that we have been facing for the past several hundred years, which is republican terrorism. If I, in my ill-informed state, were to be asked which organisation posed the greatest—
Mr Speaker
Order. May I gently say to the hon. Gentleman that the reason why the House has not been discussing Irish terrorism is that it is not referenced in the order? I know that that is a point at which, intuitively, he would speedily have arrived in any case.
Patrick Mercer
I am most grateful, Mr Speaker. I do think that if we are talking about home-grown terrorism, we should not neglect the lessons that we have learned over the past several hundred years in facing that particular form of terrorism.
I return for a moment to the thorny issue of detention without trial. There will be temptations for the Minister to change the detention period as there are different pressures and as the different forms of terrorism to which we are subject become more and more frequent. I ask him not to give way to the temptation to do so needlessly, pointlessly and damagingly, as the previous Government did. My view is that the period is currently far too long. I ask him to understand that we combated the Irish Republican Army and Irish terrorism, or republican terrorism as I should probably call it more accurately, with a much shorter period of detention without trial. I speak from personal experience, although I entirely take the point that Mr Speaker has just made, Madam Deputy Speaker. We combated that terrorism within the law and with the principle and understanding that a man or woman is innocent until proved guilty. We did so on the basis that those who opposed us were criminals, not freedom fighters or misguided soldiers.
In this short speech, I wish to ask the Minister, if the temptation to increase the detention period arises again, to be fully cognisant of the fact that any period for which we take away a man or woman’s liberty, particularly when faced with the extraordinary difficulties and sensitivities of terrorism, means that we unintentionally add to, aid and abet the terrorists’ cause. In the same way, the death of Drummer Rigby—the death of simply one man, desperately sad though it was—has drawn attention to that cause. If we make an issue of the matter again and try to turn our liberties on their head by adding to simple criminal law in the case of terrorists, we will aid and abet their cause.
I will cease on that point, but I simply say that we must not forget the lessons of the past. We must understand where terrorism will lie in the future, and the House must never be surprised by the depravity and bestiality to which these people can stoop.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
It is a real pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer), who served with great distinction on the Home Affairs Committee for five years during the last Parliament. He is regarded as the House’s expert on security matters, and when he was on the Committee he was able to bring his expertise and knowledge to a number of inquiries and reports. He is an assiduous constituency Member of Parliament, and it has been a pleasure to hear from him on this important matter.
The whole House will support the Minister in his order. That was made clear by the shadow Minister for security, and I doubt very much that anyone who speaks in this debate will disagree with the Minister. Having served in the House for a number of years and attended debates on a number of such orders, I can say that it is clear that when Ministers with the security portfolio come before the House to make a statement—some of it based on intelligence that cannot be shared with the House—the House always defers to them and accepts what they say. That is even more important when Members can consider the order, look at the organisations and support what is being done.
I want to raise a few points on how proscription affects groups and how we can improve such orders. I fully support the decision on Boko Haram and Minbar Ansar Deen/Ansar al-Sharia, two groups that ought to be proscribed. As we heard from the shadow Minister, one is predominantly active in Nigeria, but with people in this country who support what is going on in Nigeria, north Cameroon and Niger. The other has been involved in all kinds of activities, particularly in Libya, but also in other countries that promote terrorism. In the United Kingdom, it promotes terrorism by distributing content through a forum and its website activities. It regularly advertises its involvement in these matters.
Before I turn to my specific points, I want to pay tribute to our security services for the incredible work they do on a daily basis. They work hard to keep the people of this country safe and sometimes we forget to thank them. We only thank them after there has been a great tragedy, such as the one alluded to by the hon. Member for Newark: the murder of Lee Rigby. Day in, day out, they work extremely hard, necessarily in the shadows, and we need to thank them for what they do.
My worry about proscription orders, especially in respect of new groups, is how the heads of those groups can be chopped off, and, amoeba-like, they can form themselves into different organisations with different names. For example, the Home Secretary proscribed Muslims Against Crusades in November 2011 on the grounds that it was simply a new name for an organisation that was already proscribed. However, as we know from other proscription orders, it is possible for Boko Haram and Ansar al-Sharia, or the people behind them, to suddenly create themselves into new organisations with new names. One example is the case of Mr Anjem Choudary, who has created numerous new organisations after his organisation was proscribed by the Home Secretary: Islam4UK, the Call to Submission, Islamic Path, the London School of Sharia and the Saved Sect, all of which have been banned. The latest is called the Islamic Emergency Defence—the IED.
When the Minister comes to reply, I want assurances that when these two groups and the people behind them form themselves into other organisations, the Government will be ready to proscribe them. This is a difficult area that requires huge expertise from the security services. It is fine for the House to proscribe, but it is a problem if groups create themselves into other organisations.
As we have heard from the shadow Minister, I am concerned, and the Prime Minister is concerned, that Hizb ut-Tahrir is still not the subject of proscription. I thought that the hon. Member for Newark was a little unfair to describe the shadow Minister’s comments as a criticism of the Prime Minister. I know how highly my hon. Friend regards the Prime Minister, and on this issue we believe he is absolutely right: this organisation ought to have been proscribed. This was a criticism not of the Prime Minister, but of the system. The Prime Minister believes, as he did in opposition, that something should be done, but somehow the system does not allow it to happen. That is still a mystery to me, but I live in hope that come 2015 and the next election, the organisation will have been banned.
Patrick Mercer
I hear everything the right hon. Gentleman says, but I think he would agree that there are extraordinary circumstances when what appears to be a clear-cut case on the surface is, for intelligence purposes, rather different.
Keith Vaz
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, but I do not think the Prime Minister would have used the words he did unless he was being very careful, and he certainly would have retracted them after he became Prime Minister had he received more information indicating a problem.
We shall leave that to one side, however, as it is not the subject of the order. I am sure the Prime Minister and everyone else is fully behind the proscription of these two organisations. I was disappointed with the Minister’s response to my intervention. He is an accomplished performer at the Dispatch Box and before the Home Affairs Committee—we will be calling him again for our inquiry into international terrorism and crime—but he did not give us any answers today or take us any further on from what he told us on 4 July 2012. That was the last time such an order was put through the House.
The hon. Member for Newark—I was about to call him the Minister for Newark; of course, he ought to have been security Minister at some stage, given his knowledge of the subject, but there is still time, with two years to go—the shadow Minister and I are not suggesting it in this case, but when we proscribe, we ought to put in place a time limit for reviewing the order, not because we would want to de-proscribe as soon as we proscribe, but because it would be right to keep reviewing these organisations, just in case they turn out to be shell organisations. I have mentioned the Tamil Tigers on the two most recent occasions that we have discussed this, although the Minister was not here last time—the Immigration Minister stood in for him. The Tamil Tigers have ceased to exist—everyone in the organisation has ceased to exist—yet they are still proscribed in the United Kingdom.
The Minister invites us to make an application for de-proscription for which there is no timetable. That means, I am afraid, that the matter ends up not in this House, which is responsible for proscription, but in the courts, where organisations are able to spend a lot of money. I think of the People’s Mujahedeen. Like me, Madam Deputy Speaker, you were in the House when that happened, on the Government Benches. A Minister came before the House and said, “We are de-proscribing the People’s Mujahedeen, because they’ve gone to court and won their judicial review.” I do not want these two organisations to do the same thing, which was why I said that the Minister’s answers were unsatisfactory.
The Minister told us one year ago, on 4 July 2012, that there would be a response “in due course”. I have discovered that that is one of the Minister’s favourite sayings—I am going to look in Hansard at how many times he says it; but he was a distinguished lawyer before he came to the House, and “in due course” is something that lawyers tend to say in their arguments. On 22 November 2012, however, the Immigration Minister, who is not a lawyer, used the word “shortly” in the House. “Shortly” clearly means “not next week”, because the response came in March this year.
Indeed, the word “response” also needs to be looked at, because although the Minister said that there had been a response—you were not in the Chair at the time, Madam Deputy Speaker, so I will not draw you into this debate—the Government’s response was to say that the report by the independent reviewer of terrorism, David Anderson, QC, had been “noted”. That is a very odd response from the Government. We are used to them saying, “A Select Committee”—or an independent reviewer—“has made a recommendation, and this is what we think about the subject.” This poor chap went through the preparation of that entire report and then waited a whole year to be told that it had been “noted”. Now we hear from the Minister, in his response to me, that he is going to respond—[Interruption.] I am afraid I have forgotten what he said—it was not “in due course” or “shortly”—and I do not have access to Hansard, so when he winds up, perhaps he can remind me what he said he would do.
When we proscribe, we need to be careful that we do not get organisations that can then de-proscribe. There is no point having someone as distinguished as David Anderson, QC, producing reports—poring over all the detail and providing expertise to the Government—and then the Government not responding. All I say to the Minister is this. He has told us that officials are looking into the matter. Well, hooray for officials—distinguished officials, I am sure. He has told us that they are “actively” considering the matter. What does that mean? Since I last raised the matter in the House on 4 July 2012, have officials “inactively” considered it? We have had activity and officials; what we now have are Ministers—good Ministers, such as the security Minister. He is on top of the brief—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. The right hon. Gentleman has been going round this point for nearly five minutes now. Will he please clearly make his point? Then perhaps we can hear what the Minister has to say for himself.
James Brokenshire
I thank all right hon. and hon. Members for their contributions to the debate, which has been well informed and well focused on the tasks at hand and the specifics of the order before the House.
Let me comment at the outset on the observations made by my hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer) about the appalling murder in Woolwich of Drummer Lee Rigby. I am sure that all right hon. and hon. Members will join me in saying that all our thoughts and prayers are with the family in their preparation for Drummer Rigby’s funeral in just a few days’ time. Can I also echo—[Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. Will the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) move away from the Front Bench? Only the Minister is supposed to be standing there, no other Member.
James Brokenshire
I echo the comments of the Chair of the Select Committee on Home Affairs about the work of the Security Service, as well as the police involved in counter-terrorism work and, indeed, all officials engaged in keeping our country safe. That includes activities overseas, as well as in the United Kingdom. I wholly endorse his comments about how so much of that work necessarily has to be done out of sight. In my role as security Minister, I have the genuine privilege to have some insight into that work and to see the professionalism, focus and drive that those people have in seeking to keep all of us safe. I entirely endorse the comments that the right hon. Gentleman made in that connection.
Let me deal with a number of the points that were flagged up. On Boko Haram, we have regular dialogue with the Government of Nigeria on a broad range of mutual terrorism concerns. The Nigerians have proscribed Boko Haram and are aware of our intention to do so.
The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) asked about the timing of the order being laid before the House tonight. The decisions on whether to proscribe a particular organisation are taken after careful consideration and in the light of emerging intelligence. It is important that such decisions should be built on a robust evidence base and that they should support other members of the international community in their fight against terrorism. It would be inappropriate for me to discuss specific intelligence matters, but I can assure her that these issues are carefully considered in this context, and in the context of our broader support for others around the world in their fight against international terrorism. I note the points that she has raised, however.
My hon. Friend the Member for Newark spoke of the need for balance and the need to ensure that, when we take action, we properly consider individual freedoms as against the need for collective security. Sometimes the challenges might be pushed in one direction or the other, but I am clear that they should be mutually reinforcing. If we are to uphold our values and traditions, and uphold who we are as a country, we must ensure that we properly respect individual freedoms and liberties while providing collective security for the country as a whole.
The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North asked about Hizb ut-Tahrir. That organisation is not proscribed, and proscription could be considered only when the Home Secretary believed it to be involved in terrorism, as defined by the Terrorism Act 2000. However, I want to make it clear to the House that the Government have significant concerns about Hizb ut-Tahrir, and we will continue to monitor its activities closely. Such groups are not free to spread hatred and incite violence as they please. The police have comprehensive powers to take action under the criminal law to deal with people who incite hatred, and they will do so. We will seek to ensure that Hizb ut-Tahrir and groups like it cannot operate without challenge in public places in this country. We will not tolerate secret meetings behind closed doors on premises funded by the taxpayer, and we will ensure that civic organisations are made well aware of Hizb ut-Tahrir and groups like it, and of the names under which they operate and the ways in which they go about their business. It would not be right for me to comment on individual cases, but we keep all organisations of concern under review.
The hon. Lady will be aware of the taskforce that the Prime Minister has set up to examine the further options that we can take in the context of preventing terrorism. We are looking again at how we might deal with groups that fall below the current threshold for proscription but none the less espouse extremist views.
James Brokenshire
The taskforce has met twice, and it has considered a wide range of issues. We are focused on taking action to build on the very good work of the Prevent strategy. An example is the work of Prevent co-ordinators in universities to provide support and advice and to highlight understanding of the potential of extremist groups to operate on university campuses. The Prime Minister made it clear in his statement on the matter that he wants to examine all the issues closely to determine what further work and action could and should be undertaken. That work is progressing, and I am sure that the Prime Minister will continue to update the House on the work of the taskforce.
Let me address the point raised by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North about the People’s Mujahedeen Organisation of Iran. That organisation was proscribed in 2001 and was de-proscribed in June 2008, following the judgments of the Proscribed Organisations Appeals Commission and the Court of Appeal. An appeals process can be undertaken in respect of a proscribed organisation.
I should perhaps have underlined in my initial response to the Chairman of the Select Committee that proscribed organisations are kept under constant review. There is a rolling 12-month basis on which those organisations are reviewed by a group that draws in experts from across government. It is not the case that an organisation that has been proscribed would have to stay proscribed, as there is an ongoing process. I am sorry if he was not satisfied with my initial response to him. The work I highlighted related to how to ensure that the process of the annual reviews and what they produce can be strengthened and developed further to give greater assurance in respect of some of the issues that he highlighted.
In conclusion, I would like to thank all right hon. and hon. Members for their considered comments. I believe that the proscription of Boko Haram will demonstrate our condemnation of that group’s activities. Proscribing it will also enable the police to carry out disruptive action against any of its supporters in the UK and ensure that they cannot operate here. The proscription of Minbar Ansar Deen will be a powerful tool for the police to help them successfully disrupt the organisation, and it will also send a powerful message that the promotion and encouragement of terrorism are not acceptable and that we will take action against organisations that partake in such activities.
On the basis of those comments, I hope that the House will support the actions proposed by the Government, and I commend the order to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) Order 2013, which was laid before this House on 8 July, be approved.
London Local Authorities and Transport for London (No. 2) Bill [Lords]
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
With this, it will be convenient to discuss amendments 2 to 9 and 20.
Mr Chope
It gives me great pleasure to move amendment 1 and to discuss the other amendments in the group. I begin by paying tribute to the promoters, who said earlier today that two of my amendments in a subsequent group will be accepted, and I think that is a perfect answer to all those people who look askance at Members of this House who force debates on issues such as this and table amendments. The promoters have, by their actions, demonstrated the worthwhile nature of that behaviour.
The concerns of my hon. Friends lie in trying to find out more about the proposals before us and ensuring that the same standards of high-quality legislation are applied to private legislation as are applied to normal public legislation. I shall refer to some examples later and I hope that the House will agree that there are examples of legislative provisions that are too woolly or imprecise to deserve to be put on the statute book.
Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)
The critics to whom the hon. Gentleman refers have obviously never had the opportunity of being in the Chamber and listening to the amendments that he and his colleagues have tabled. They have clearly demonstrated their worth over many, many years.
Mr Chope
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I do not wish to crow, other than to say that it is important that just because a Bill is a private Bill it should not be subject to less scrutiny than a public Bill. As was said on Second Reading, why should a local authority impose a statutory regime in its area different from the national regime?
I am delighted to see the Minister, who will be able to respond to some of the concerns about why a regime for dealing with skips different from the regime that applies elsewhere in the country that has to be introduced private legislation rather than through a public Bill promoted by the Government.
Before I get too distracted from the subject matter of the amendments, I should say that amendments 1 and 2, which can be considered together, are an example of why the Bill is unnecessarily complex. The Bill applies to the whole of London other than the City of London, yet it is proposed that its provisions should be brought in at different times in different areas. If we are to have a regime for skips, for example, in London, surely the changes should apply to the whole of London at the same time rather than piecemeal. Yet clause 3(2) states:
“Different days may be fixed under this section for the purpose of the application of the provisions mentioned in section 1(3) to different areas.”
Likewise, clause 3(3) states:
“Different days may be fixed under this section for the purpose of the application of the provisions mentioned in section 1(3) to an area.”
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
I understand my hon. Friend’s point. Is it possible that what he mentions is done to enable authorities to trial something, to make sure that the system works efficiently and properly before extending it? If that is true, is it not sensible?
Mr Chope
It may be that my hon. Friend, as so often, anticipates the response to come from my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), who speaks on behalf of the promoters. We shall have to wait and see. On the face of it, the issue is worthy of an explanation. If the legislation is untried and experimental, that should be clearly set out in the Bill.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Might not confusion result from the fact that measures are to be introduced on different days in different parts of London? I might not be as generous in my thinking as my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), but could that not be a deliberate ploy to try to confuse people and set up a money-making racket?
Mr Chope
It could be, but I am not going to try to follow my hon. Friend by making accusations against the promoters or London authorities by suggesting that the Bill is designed to confuse and ensure that they can get more in penalty income than they might otherwise be able to. Again, the fact that my hon. Friend raises that as an issue demonstrates the climate of suspicion regarding a lot of local authorities in relation to the imposition of penalty charges, which I recall from having read an article are now giving hundreds of millions of pounds in income to London local authorities alone. Many people feel those measures were brought in almost by subterfuge through Bills such as the one we are considering tonight, and now many years later people can see that has resulted in a significant financial burden and quite a lot of injustice. That is why I think it would be better to have simplicity and clarity, which would require that any provisions in this Bill be introduced in all areas of London at the same time on the same day, rather than causing the confusion to which I have referred.
Philip Davies
I just wonder whether my hon. Friend’s amendment will achieve what he seeks. Are these parts of the Bill making something clear to people, rather than being a necessary part of the Bill? Even if my hon. Friend’s amendments were accepted, would it not still be possible for these measures to be introduced on different days? I am not entirely sure where it is made clear they would have to be on a specific day. Are these two parts of the Bill just making something clear to people?
Mr Chope
My hon. Friend raises another point that I had not thought about, which is that these subsections may be superfluous anyway and it is implicit within the powers being given under clause 3 that an appointed day could be a different day for different parts of London in different circumstances, in which case, in trying to keep legislation simple there would be another argument in favour of accepting my amendments 1 and 2, as in leaving out subsections (2) and (3) of clause 3, they would make the Bill clearer. We will have to wait to hear the response to the debate before assessing whether these amendments are of such significance that we would seek to divide the House on them. Speaking for myself, I think it would be reasonable to await the full explanation before rushing to judgment.
Amendment 3 is significant. It is the first of the amendments addressing part 2 of the Bill, and clause 4 in particular, which deals with the attachment of street lamps and signs to buildings, and changing the regulations relating thereto. At present, the regime is pretty restricted under the highways legislation, but this Bill seeks to give much wider powers to local authorities, enabling them to permit the attachment of street lamps and signs to buildings even when that is not approved or supported by the owners of those buildings. This power is potentially quite significant, because the owner of a building could suddenly find they are required to have a street lamp or sign attached to their building.
We know from earlier stages of the Bill that the Society of London Theatre was very concerned about the impact of the measure on theatreland, and it is to the credit of the promoters that they decided that they would therefore exempt theatres, which is why clause 4(14) specifically states:
“This section and section 5 shall not apply in respect of a theatre.”
In a few moments I will talk about amendment 4, which follows on from that. Amendment 3, however, deals with subsection (13), which states:
“A London authority may not, under section 3, appoint a day for the purposes of this section until a code of practice dealing with the exercise of the powers of the said section 45 and the said section 74 as modified by this section has been published by a joint committee.”
My amendment would ensure that the code of practice must not only be published by a Joint Committee but be approved by the Secretary of State for Transport—an appropriate and proportionate safeguard.
Mr Nuttall
Amendment 3 specifically suggests that the approval of the Secretary of State for Transport should be sought. My limited understanding of these things is that the normal practice is to specify “the Secretary of State” and leave the actual office open. Perhaps my hon. and learned Friend would like to expand on why he has specified the Secretary of State for Transport.
Mr Chope
I am not learned in any sense of the term, but this amendment has been selected and I thought that rather than just referring to “the Secretary of State” it would more appropriate if it specified the Secretary of State for Transport. If the Minister wishes to intervene to suggest that it should be the responsibility of a different member of the Government, so be it. The point I am trying to make is that this is a significant issue. It is recognised by the promoters as sufficiently serious in its potential implications as to mean there should be a code of practice to deal with the exercise of the powers. The code should go further, in the sense that it should be approved by the Secretary of State for Transport. It would be unreasonable to expect this code to have to be approved by this House, through a statutory instrument, but it is reasonable to say that there should be a safeguard and that the Government can ensure that the code of practice accords with what is reasonable and proportionate. The Secretary of State for Transport could then be held accountable by this House for approving a code of practice if it did not meet the reasonable conditions we think ought to apply.
Philip Davies
My hon. Friend comes at this with far more expertise and knowledge than I do, because whereas I never have been and never will be a Minister, he has been—indeed, he was in the then Department of Transport. Will he therefore outline how he would expect the Secretary of State to take on this responsibility? Would it just be a meaningless rubber-stamping exercise?
Mr Chope
Whether it was a meaningless rubber-stamping exercise or something of substance would depend very much on the Minister. Although we would say that the code would be approved by the Secretary of State for Transport, in practice it would be brought before a more junior Minister, who would carry out the approval in the name of the Secretary of State. It is not for me to comment on the assiduous way in which various junior Ministers operate, but I have no doubt that the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond), would be extremely assiduous if he was the Minister charged with this responsibility. The paper would be put before him by his officials and he would ask probing questions, perhaps on an iterative basis, whereby it might take a few days or weeks before the matter went through. He would take the responsibility seriously and examine the code, raising any concerns he had and suggesting any modifications that he wanted to have.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Stephen Hammond)
My hon. Friend rightly says that I would be entirely assiduous should this onerous burden be placed upon me, as I am with any such instrument; I carefully read these things and scrutinise them. I can tell him that the Government’s view, having examined the amendment, is that there would be no need for the Secretary of State to approve the code of practice; the code could stand by itself.
Mr Chope
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the first part of his remarks and I hope that in due course we can explore further the second part, in which he said that there was no need for the code of practice to be approved and that it could stand by itself. Quite, but would it not be an additional safeguard to ensure that it received the approval of the Government rather than just a Joint Committee, as suggested? I shall leave the matter there and we can perhaps explore it in due course.
Amendment 4 would add a new subsection after clause 4(14) so that clauses 4 and 5 would
“not apply in respect of any building in a conservation area.”
The provisions already exclude any application to listed buildings and, as we have discussed, theatres, but a building in a conservation area has traditionally enjoyed the same protection as a listed building outside a conservation area. The essence of a conservation area is that all the buildings should be considered together in the context of the local environment. One might be concerned that if a lot of street lamps and signs were attached to buildings in a conservation area, that could detract from the character of the area quite significantly. My challenge to the Minister in responding to the debate is that if it is reasonable to exempt listed buildings from clause 4, why has that not also been extended to buildings in conservation areas?
The next amendment in the group comes under the category of bad drafting and an attempt to take extremely wide powers. Amendment 5 would amend clause 5(4)(b), which deals with the serving of notices under clause 4 on people who would be affected by the application of the clause on the attachment of street lamps and signs to buildings. It states:
“If, for the purposes of serving a notice…the name or address of the relevant owner cannot be ascertained after reasonable enquiry, the notice…may be served by…addressing it to him by name or by the description of “owner” of the land (describing it)”.
That is probably similar to a lot of the letters one gets through one’s letterbox addressed to “The Owner” and asking, “Have you thought of selling your house or letting it through some great agents?” It would seem to be perfectly reasonable. Alternatively, one could leave
“it in the hands of a person who is”
on the land as a
“resident or employed on the land or leaving it conspicuously affixed to some building or object on or near the land.”
That is a standard way of serving notices, by affixing them to a property. Giving it to a person who is resident is fine, but what concerns me is how we are to judge whether to give a formal notice to somebody who “appears to be” the resident. That is such a large loophole. Anybody could say, “I saw somebody there, they appeared to be the resident, I served notice on them. I don’t know who they were, I didn’t ask them any questions, but they appeared to be the resident.” That is granting a power that is far too wide—unnecessarily so—and could undermine the whole purpose of the clause, which is intended to ensure the reasonable service of notices and that the owner or resident of affected premises should receive the proper notice. I look forward to hearing from my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East on how we will judge whether people appear to be resident, and why it is necessary to have this extraordinarily wide power, which allows a notice to be left with somebody who appears to be resident; implicit in that is the idea that they may not be resident.
Philip Davies
I totally agree with my hon. Friend; this is a ludicrous state of affairs. Also, the Bill says “appears to be resident”—appears to whom? A person may appear to be resident to someone who is issuing a notice, but there is no regard to whether anybody else would think that the person was resident. Is this a good enough test?
Mr Chope
Exactly. My hon. Friend makes a very good point.
Clause 5(5) falls into the “ludicrous and superfluous” category. It says:
“This section shall not be taken to exclude the employment of any method of service not expressly provided for by it”,
but of course the clause is only permissive; subsection (1) says that a notice
“may be served by post.”
What does clause 5(5) add to the statute book, other than completely superfluous wording? I would have thought it a statement of the obvious. Do we really need to include on the statute book lots of statements of the obvious, like this one? Amendment 6 would therefore leave it out.
Jim Fitzpatrick
The hon. Gentleman is making a strong argument for the amendment. If I heard him correctly, he said that he had received an indication that some of his amendments may be accepted by the sponsor. Is this amendment one of those that he anticipates being acceptable to the sponsor?
Mr Chope
I hope so, but I have not yet received formal notice about this amendment. The two amendments about which I have received formal notice are in the second group, and I will not go into those now. From the hon. Gentleman’s comments, it seems that he is supportive of the amendment—I am not sure whether he is referring to amendment 5 or 6; perhaps he could indicate that more clearly.
Jim Fitzpatrick
I was not indicating whether we supported or opposed the amendment; all I was saying was that the hon. Gentleman was making a strong argument.
Philip Davies
On amendment 6, which would leave out subsection (5), has my hon. Friend had any thoughts about what might be included in those other methods of service? Might they include notices being served by e-mail, or by some other electronic means? If so, does he support that?
Mr Chope
I find that a rather testing intervention, because I am rather against the idea of using e-mails to serve notices. From my limited experience of receiving and sending e-mails, I think it is often not clear whether they have reached their destination or got lost in the ether. Quite a lot of mine seem to go into something—I cannot remember what it is called—
Mr Chope
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. They go into the spam folder, so they are effectively never received, because they are automatically deleted—or they certainly are on my computer, but I do not want to be drawn into that issue. The promoters may have it in mind that they could serve notices in that way to anybody who appeared to be resident, but I do not know how they would find out how to do that. I look forward to hearing from the sponsor on that point.
One of the reasons why it can be frustrating for people following private legislation is that during the Committee stage of a Bill which is the subject of a petition it is not possible to go into the detail of the drafting, unless a petitioner has expressed concern about it or members of the Bill Committee take an interest and ask the promoters what a particular clause or subsection means. When the Bill comes back to the House on Report, it is often the first chance that we have to examine the wording and why the promoters consider it necessary.
Clause 6 deals with damage to highways as a consequence of adjacent works. It provides that
“The 1980 Act shall apply in Greater London as though for section 133 (damage to footways of streets by excavations) and its heading there were substituted—
Damage to highway by carrying out of works”.
The current wording of clause 6 is:
“If a highway maintainable at the public expense is damaged by or in consequence of any works on land adjacent to the highway, the highway authority for the highway may make good the damage”.
The effect of my amendment 7 would be that the highway authority “shall make good” the damage, because the highway authority has the ultimate responsibility for ensuring the integrity of the highway. I declare an interest as the chairman of the all-party parliamentary group on highways maintenance. We had a meeting today to discuss the fraught issue of highway maintenance, the number of potholes that there are, and the rather varied performance of local authorities up and down the country in addressing the problems caused by deteriorating road surfaces and the creation of potholes.
Most people say that it should be the responsibility of the highway authority to put the road back into good order if that is what has happened. Amendment 7 would make it mandatory for the highway authority to make good the damage, and amendment 8 would enable the highway authority to recover the expenses reasonably incurred by it in so doing.
Philip Davies
May we stick to amendment 7 for the time being? I agree with my hon. Friend’s general premise. Motorists get a raw deal in this country, considering the amount of tax that they pay. Might the amendment lead to a perverse situation where the damage may be minor, yet the local authority would be forced to carry out work, which may be considered disproportionate? Might that be an unintended consequence of my hon. Friend’s amendment?
Mr Chope
I do not think it would be an intended consequence. I concede that my hon. Friend may have got me on that. Essentially, the question is whether we would describe minor damage as being covered by the amendment, or whether we are talking about significant damage. I drafted my amendment on the basis that we are talking about damage of such significance that it should be made good. We know that an unevenness on the road surface may soon deteriorate when heavy vehicles go over it or when it is subject to water penetration. What might start off as relatively minor damage may, if not addressed in timely fashion, become a significant pothole and a hazard to road users. My hon. Friend makes a good point, but I do not think that it really counters the general thrust of amendment 7, which is to try to ensure that the highway authority takes responsibility for making good any damage caused by works adjacent to the road.
Philip Davies
My hon. Friend, rather uncharacteristically, is rushing through his amendments and catching me out as a result. To return to amendment 8, which would insert the word “may”, is he indicating that clause 6, as drafted, would force the highway authority to recover the expenses? Is the purpose of his amendment to allow some flexibility?
Mr Chope
Yes. If we were to leave out “may” and insert “shall”, as amendment 7 proposes, but not make amendment 8, obviously the highway authority would be required to make good the damage and be forced to recover the expenses reasonably incurred. I do not think that it would be sensible to oblige a highway authority under the terms of a statute to recover the expenses, which might prove difficult. It would be better to say that it “may” recover the expenses, which is why amendment 8 seeks to insert “may” in front of the word “recover” in the provision. That way, the highway authority would have a responsibility to make good any damage caused to the highway by adjacent works, but it would have discretion over whether or not to seek to recover the resulting expenses. I hope that is clear.
Philip Davies
It is clear, but I wonder whether my hon. Friend could expand a little on why he thinks the highway authority should not recover the expenses reasonably incurred.
Mr Chope
In a sense, that is the other side of the coin my hon. Friend has just used. The answer is that it might not be worth the candle. Why should we force a local authority to try to recover a relatively small sum when the cost of doing so could be disproportionate? That is the best answer I can give to the good point he makes.
Let me turn to amendment 9. This is another example of where the Bill’s drafting is unnecessarily wide. If a highway is damaged as a result of adjacent works, surely the person responsible for paying to repair it should be
“(b) the person carrying out the works; or
(c) the person on whose behalf the works were carried out.”
Why should
“(a) the owner of the land in question”
be the subject of the recovery of expenses if he neither carried out the works nor had the works carried out on his behalf? That seems unnecessarily oppressive, because the owner of the land might know nothing whatsoever about the work being carried out or any damage resulting from it. That incorporates a provision of strict liability in circumstances in which I do not think it is reasonable.
That is why I have tabled amendment 9, which would leave out subsection (a) and ensure that the expenses reasonably incurred could be recovered from the person who carried out the works or the person on whose behalf the works were carried out. That might often be the owner. However, if that person was not the owner, he would not and could not be liable. I look forward to hearing from the promoters of the Bill why they think it is reasonable to expect the owner of the land to be liable in the circumstances that I have described.
Mr Nuttall
Is my hon. Friend aware of the definition of “owner”? Is it a leasehold-owner or someone who owns the freehold?
Mr Chope
My hon. Friend makes another good point. I do not know. The explanatory notes define “owner” in relation to part 3, but he is asking about part 2. That is perhaps an omission. There may be more than one owner. As he suggests, they may be a leasehold-owner, a freeholder, or, indeed, a sub-lessee. That is a reasonable point of inquiry. It might also be another reason why leaving out any reference to an owner would be the best way forward for the promoters of the Bill.
Amendment 20 is in the same group, which is headed “Highways and general”—“general” in this case. It relates to part 4, which has only one clause—clause 15, on the subject of gated roads, which says:
“Any person who opens, closes or otherwise operates or interferes with a relevant barrier without lawful excuse shall be guilty of an offence and liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale…In subsection (1) a ‘relevant barrier’ means any barrier lawfully placed in, or over a highway by or on behalf of a traffic authority in London for the purpose of preventing or restricting the passage of vehicles or any class of vehicles into, out of, or along a highway.”
My amendment 20 would leave out all that. If we are to have specific legislation creating a criminal offence for people who open, close or otherwise interfere with such barriers, it should introduce that offence right across the country rather than in a particular part of it. I have no evidence to suggest that there is a bigger problem relating to gated roads in London than anywhere else.
Furthermore, introducing specific offences litters the statute book of criminal law with rather a lot of unnecessary trivia. In this case, if somebody goes along to a barrier and cuts off the padlock or forces it open in some way, they will be guilty of criminal damage, which is obviously already an offence in criminal law. The provision would potentially criminalise somebody who might open a barrier because it was not locked and then find themselves guilty of an offence.
Philip Davies
I agree with my hon. Friend wholeheartedly. Does he agree that there may well be a perfectly good, legitimate reason for somebody to do that if it is to preserve their health and safety or for other emergency purposes, and yet the provision does not give any wide-ranging exemptions for such people?
Mr Chope
Absolutely. The clause refers to anyone who
“interferes with a relevant barrier without lawful excuse”,
which raises all sorts of questions regarding how to avoid the build-up of congestion caused by an accident or another incident such as a fire. If somebody says, “We need to open this barrier so that the traffic can flow more freely,” they might—unless they are authorised by the local authority—find themselves guilty of an offence. It seems to be a totally disproportionate response to the problem that the Bill’s promoters say exists.
I have seen no evidence of how many occasions gated roads have been opened, closed or otherwise interfered with by people to the detriment of the local authority. As I said at the outset, if there is a problem surely it would be better dealt with under the Traffic Regulation Act 1984, which relates to all authorities, not just those in London.
Rather earlier than some might have anticipated, I have reached the end of my introduction to the amendments, to which I have tried to speak in a constructive way. This is not an exercise in trying to prevent a Bill from making progress; it is an exercise in trying to ensure that the legislation that we put on the statute book is clear beyond peradventure and of sufficiently high quality to merit inclusion. It is very difficult to put these things right after the event, and on too many occasions in the past local authorities and Transport for London have been given wide powers that were not sufficiently explored beforehand, to the detriment of the general public. That is why, on behalf of road users and residents in London—I declare an interest as the owner of freehold property in London—I propose these amendments. I hope that the Bill’s promoters will address them as constructively as they have agreed to address at least two of the amendments in the next group.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) for tabling these various amendments in, I trust, a spirit of exploring the intentions of the Bill’s promoters. I trust that my explanations will be sufficient for him not to press them to a vote. The Bill has been subject to a great deal of scrutiny both in this House and in the other place, so I will confine my remarks to the amendments.
I gleaned from my hon. Friend’s remarks that he tabled amendments 1 and 2 because he wants an explanation, not because he wants to press them to a vote. They relate to the commencement date for the regulations on lamps and signage. The Bill’s promoters across London are very keen for ultimate flexibility as to when the regulations should be introduced. The amendments would constrain London authorities to introduce them all on the same day across London, which would be draconian. The purpose of this part of the Bill is to say that there will be a need for lamps and signage to be restricted, but at different times for different authorities. That does not alter the fact that authorities have to advertise and give notice of their wish to introduce these schemes, but they do not have to introduce them in the same way right across London.
Mr Nuttall
Will my hon. Friend give the House one or two examples of the sorts of signs and effects that would alter traffic systems?
Bob Blackman
There will be times when signage or lamps are required, possibly on a temporary basis, and therefore one needs to introduce them, and give notice of that, and then take them away again. Those signs might be for emergency roadworks, or a particular purpose such as special events that take place in London. There are regularly demonstrations and road closures for special events, and it would be foolish to have those signs unnecessarily in operation throughout London and the affected areas. I trust that that provides a suitable explanation. It does not change the fact that local authorities must still advertise the reason for lamps and signage, as is wholly appropriate.
Amendment 3 suggests that after the Localism Act 2011, which enables local authorities to take many actions themselves, and after devolving power to London, we suddenly drag power back to the Secretary of State to force the Minister—or someone else—to consider the minutiae of things that go on in London. To me that seems to be overkill, and it does not take place in any other part of the country. The Secretary of State and Ministers have plenty to do without considering the minutiae of a code of practice that London local authorities will come together and agree, cross-party and for the good of all Londoners and London. I trust that my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch will accept that such things are best kept to a local level, rather than involving the Government. I understand that the Government have not stated that they want to interfere in such a process, and I am sure the Minister will confirm that in due course.
Mr Chope
Is not the point that provision is already set out in the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 to deal with such issues? That is national legislation but the Bill seeks to modify it for London. My amendment would ensure that there is a proper safeguard for that proposed modification for London through the Secretary of State. My hon. Friend refers to localism, but surely such things should apply equally to all local authorities, not just those that bring forward Bills such as this.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
The Minister is getting carried away. He cannot intervene on someone who is already intervening. I think we have got the message for Bob Blackman to respond.
Mr Hammond
Wearily he climbs. Let me try and clear up this point. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) that it should not be for the Government to consider the minutiae of things, but I suspect that the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) is not actually intra vires or workable. This is a Transport for London Bill, and therefore the code of practice would be incumbent on those in control of Transport for London. Transport for London is devolved to London, and such matters would be for it, and the Mayor to consider, not the Secretary of State. I therefore suggest that the amendment is completely unworkable.
Bob Blackman
I thank the Minister for that helpful intervention. Amendment 4 would mean that local authorities could not put up lamps and signs in a conservation area without consent. The problem is that councils already have the power to do that, although they must obtain the consent of the owner of the building. This is a decluttering measure; the idea behind these provisions is to remove the clutter of road signs and signage that appears all over London, which most of us Londoners recognise as disastrous. The amendment would restrict the ability of local authorities to declutter conservation areas and put up appropriate signs, although that ability is what most people want to see. Finally, the provisions in question, including those on conservation areas, were proposed by English Heritage. I bow to its expertise in wishing to pursue them.
Amendment 5 deals with notices. My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch made several points about people who appear to be residents or are employed on the land in question. The point is that notices would be served on such people if the local authority had been unable to ascertain the name or address of the owner of the premises. The provision in the Bill retains flexibility and is exactly the same as that in section 53 of the Crossrail Act 2008 and many other pieces of Government legislation. It is entirely consistent with previous legislation, so I strongly resist removing it.
Philip Davies
My hon. Friend is doing a good job of explaining the position. However, if I heard him correctly, he said that handing over a notice would be a last resort. Will he at least accept that the Bill does not actually say that?
Bob Blackman
It is clearly incumbent on the local authority to make every effort to establish the name and owner of a building, and it would be sensible for it to do that. However, in London in particular, there is often a freeholder, a leaseholder and maybe a sub-leaseholder, and the ownership and responsibility may be confused. The provision is about giving a notice setting out what is going to be done to the outside of a building. That is not particularly draconian, but it is clearly required. A local authority frequently goes through a set of procedures to make such things happen. It would be draconian to frustrate its ability to provide signage or lamps that are wholly consistent with the general requirements of TfL or London local authorities.
Amendment 6 would remove the provision allowing local authorities to use any other existing general powers to serve notice. Councils have a power to do so under section 233 of the Local Government Act 1972, and that power is enshrined in the Bill. The effect of the amendment would be to remove that capability under the 1972 Act. My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch may have difficulties with that Act, but this is not the right place to express them.
Mr Nuttall
On that basis, if local authorities already have the power to serve notices, I am not quite sure what the purpose of clause 5(5) is.
Bob Blackman
It just reinforces and restates existing legislation, and I think it is sensible to have the relevant legislation all in one place so that people can understand everything that applies. The subsection is nothing new and does not amend the 1972 Act. That Act has gone through many changes, through London Acts and so on, so it is sensible to retain the subsection.
Mr Chope
My hon. Friend says that the subsection just restates the existing law in section 233 of the 1972 Act. That section applies throughout the country, so why is it necessary to reapply an existing provision in a local Act? Why do we need clause 5(5) at all? He says that it is useful to have everything in one piece of legislation, but that provision is already in the 1972 Act. Unless there is something in the subsection that adds to or subtracts from section 233 of that Act, what is the point of having it? How can that be good legislation?
Bob Blackman
For clarity and continuity it is sensible to restate, not change, the position that already exists. There is nothing new in clause 5(5), but if I were reading the Bill, I would want to know that there was complete clarity about its purpose.
Amendments 7 to 9 deal with cost and repair. There is nothing more frustrating for people than to see a development cause damage to a public highway, and for there then to be a lack of clarity about who will fix it. This is a problem in large parts of London. However, the effect of the amendments will possibly not be what my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch intends. The local authority has a clear duty to maintain the highway so that it is in a good state of repair. In many parts of London it is not in a good state of repair. Where a developer or someone acting on behalf of an owner has caused damage, it is clear that the first option should be for the developer to repair the damage it has caused. Amendment 7 would remove the obligation on the developer to fix the damage it has caused and put the onus completely on the local authority to obtain the funding from the developer or the owner affected. This is, therefore, an unwanted measure.
Existing national legislation is worded in exactly the same way as the proposed legislation. Amendment 7 would place London local authorities in a worse position than the local authority in, for example, Christchurch. I do not see any reason why London authorities should be placed in a worse position than authorities outside London. The position should be consistent for all three amendments: the first call is for the developer to fix the problem it has caused. If it does not fix it, then the local authority should step in, make good the damage, and charge the people who caused the damage in the first place. In all these cases, this is entirely consistent with national legislation. The obligation to fix it should be on the people who caused the damage.
Mr Chope
The explanatory memorandum states that
“Clause 6 would replace section 133 with provisions for London that would enable the highway authority to recover their expenses of remedying such damage to any part of the highway, not just the footway.”
That seems to be what is being changed, rather than the means by which the damages can be recovered. Does my hon. Friend accept that there is a lot of rather superfluous wording, if the purpose is just to be able to extend an existing power from the footway to the whole of the highway?
Bob Blackman
The key point is who repairs the damage initially, or how the money is recovered. The point is that it should be the developer who causes the damage—frequently, heavy lorries delivering goods to a site cause damage to the highway as well the footway—who repairs it first. If they do not repair it, then the local authority steps in, makes good the damage, serves a notice and recovers the money. Unfortunately, the effect of all three amendments would remove the position of the developer doing any work at all, and put the onus fairly and squarely on the highways authority to make good and then try to recover the costs. That would be terribly frustrating for all concerned.
Mr Nuttall
I am not sure that I entirely agree with that interpretation. All that the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) seek to do is move the word “may” from line 30 to line 31. At the moment it states:
“may make good the damage and recover the expenses”.
If amendments 7 and 8 were accepted it would state:
“shall make good the damage and may recover the expenses”.
In both cases, the “may” would apply to the question of the recovering of expenses.
Bob Blackman
I thank my hon. Friend for that point, but that is completely the wrong way around. The polluter should pay. The developer who has caused the damage should pay. The point is this: whether they repair it themselves to the required standard of the highways authority or whether the highways authority makes good and then charges is a matter for the local authority. That is certainly something that they should be doing. Certainly, they should not expect the council tax payer or general taxpayer to fund the repair of damage caused by a developer, but, if the amendments were passed, the developer would be under no obligation to make good the damage and the local authority might be unable to recover the costs incurred, which would be a retrograde step.
Mr Chope
I think we are at cross-purposes. My hon. Friend rightly said that the polluter should pay, but my concern is that if the polluter does not repair the damage to the highway, it might go unrepaired, unless my amendment 7 is carried, as it would require the local authority to repair the damage.
Bob Blackman
The highways authority already has a duty to keep the highways in good repair. As I read the amendment—I was only able to read it today—my concern is that it would not allow the developer to fix the problem.
Bob Blackman
No, it wouldn’t. It says that the local authority “shall” step in and do the work, irrespective. That wording is incorrect and is why I shall resist amendment 7, as well as amendments 8 and 9, which are all consequential amendments.
On amendment 20, London has many gates placed across roads to prevent the flow of traffic through residential communities. The roads are normally accessible by the emergency services—the fire brigade, ambulance service and police—and other appropriate authorities, but sometimes there is a severe problem. At the moment, if someone damages a gate, they can be held liable for criminal damage, but if they merely open the gate for their own convenience—to access the road or bypass a congested road—it defeats the purpose of that gate, which is to prevent large parts of London from being used as rat runs. The promoters therefore seek an enforcement option. If, on being directed by the emergency services, someone opened a gate, clearly they would not be guilty of an offence, but if they opened a gate for their own convenience—or for other people’s convenience, for joyriding or whatever—they would be guilty of an offence, and it would be up to the local authorities to enforce those actions.
I accept completely that there is an issue of interpretation around the reason for opening the gate, and there is always the potential for somebody to receive a penalty for incorrectly opening one, but it is entirely fair and proper to make it clear that people should not open one unless they have authority or good reason to believe that life or limb are in danger.
Philip Davies
I am not entirely sure that the matter is as clear-cut as my hon. Friend says. As I understand it, if someone is at a red traffic light, an emergency vehicle wishes to get through and that person moves through the red light to allow it through, they still can be, and in some cases have been, prosecuted for going through a red light. I fear that, under the clause, if somebody for a good, common sense, although perhaps not lawful reason, opened a gate to allow an emergency vehicle to get to the scene of an accident, they could still find themselves prosecuted, which surely cannot be anybody’s intention.
Bob Blackman
Clearly, this is a matter of interpretation. The purpose of placing barriers across a traffic highway is to prevent the incursion of normal vehicles, but I cannot envisage someone ever being prosecuted for opening a gate that is normally locked in order to give access to an ambulance, the police or the fire brigade. However, the promoters are keen to ensure that people understand that if they interfere with a locked gate that is there for the purpose of preventing traffic from passing through, that will be an offence and they can be prosecuted.
Mr Chope
Obviously we want to test out the new provision, because it would create a new criminal offence, so what about the following scenario? What if somebody finds that the gate is open and therefore closes it? Under the provisions we are discussing, they would be liable.
Bob Blackman
Having made something of a study of such gates in London over the years, I can say that they are almost all locked with padlocks—except where someone has stolen the padlock, in which chase the gate will often flip open and shut. Young people—in general it is young people—have a habit of occasionally using such gates as a form of entertainment. We need to make it clear that such gates are there for a purpose. This issue is a matter of interpretation. We are talking about gates being interfered with—that is, opened to allow the incursion of traffic.
Philip Davies
My earlier intervention fell on stony ground, so I will try from a different angle. My hon. Friend thinks that somebody in the scenario that I painted would not be prosecuted, but how about this scenario? What would happen if somebody refused to open the gate for an emergency vehicle in a desperate situation because they feared being prosecuted for contravening the law as it stands? Would that not be a shocking consequence of the proposal we are discussing?
Bob Blackman
It would be shocking; indeed, it would be shocking if the emergency services did not have the keys to access such a gate when they arrived at the scene, which in my experience they always do. To my knowledge—I will bow to anyone else’s superior knowledge—there has never been a situation where the emergency services required access to such a gate but were prevented because they were not carrying the keys.
Jim Fitzpatrick
Is it not also the case that the emergency services have a statutory power of entry when they are fulfilling their duties under the appropriate legislation?
Bob Blackman
I cannot imagine that anyone who was acting under the authority and direction of a member of the relevant services would be prosecuted for that.
In summary, on behalf of the promoters, I hope that I have given sufficient explanation to enable the mover of the amendment to withdraw it, rather than pressing it to a vote.
Mr Nuttall
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. As always, it is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), who went through the amendments with his usual courtesy and in a good-natured and thoughtful way. I am extremely grateful for some of the explanations he gave. I am not entirely convinced by every one of them, as I will explain, but I am extremely grateful that he put forward the promoters’ case so eloquently on their behalf.
It has already been a long old road for this Bill, as I am sure my hon. Friend would agree. Only yesterday, when my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) and I noticed that it was up for debate this evening, I said, “I seem to recall that I might have spoken on Second Reading.” He said, “I think you did.” I said, “I can’t recall when that was.” He replied, “Oh, it was about March time,” so I went away and looked it up. I found that Second Reading did indeed take place about March time, but March last year—on 6 March 2012, to be precise.
The Bill has changed fairly substantially since it was first introduced in the other place. It has gradually shrunk in size, as clause after clause has been shed, for one reason or another. Members might well be wondering what has happened in the intervening period—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Well, let me help the hon. Gentleman. We are discussing the amendments, and we do not need to hear the history of the Bill prior to the amendments because, in fairness, the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) has already set out the subject very well. I know that the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) is desperate to speak only to the amendments.
Mr Nuttall
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am indeed. In one sentence, let me say that this is relevant because there was an opposed Committee meeting on 6 November last year that resulted in the Bill shrinking since the last time we discussed it, so we now have a different Bill—
Mr Deputy Speaker
Don’t worry, I do not need to see the Bill shrinking before my eyes. All I want to hear being discussed are the amendments, and I know that that is all the hon. Gentleman is going to do. No more sentences; we are going to stick to the amendments.
Mr Nuttall
I was just finishing the sentence, Mr Deputy Speaker.
I shall start with amendments 1 and 2. I am surprised that only two of the amendments have been accepted by the promoters. As has already become evident, there are some good arguments for many of the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch. Amendments 1 and 2 deal with the starting dates. They are worth considering because it would make sense, if we are introducing new laws that will apply all across London, to have them start at the same time. I listened carefully to the argument put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East about the need for complete flexibility. He also suggested that it would be somewhat draconian to introduce new rules to be applied across London all at the same time. The other side to that argument is that, if the boroughs introduced the new rules on different dates—or even in different years—there could be confusion, to say the least, as to which boroughs had adopted a particular new rule and which had not.
Let us look at the details of clause 3(2) and (3). They imply that different start dates could be set even within the same borough. Subsection (2) states:
“Different days may be fixed under this section for the purposes of the application of the provisions mentioned in section 1(3) to different areas.”
I emphasise the words “to different areas”. The only way in which subsection (3) differs is in its final three words, which are “to an area”. It states:
“Different days may be fixed under this section for the purposes of the application of the provisions mentioned in section 1(3) to an area.”
I appreciate the comment made by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East that the signs could be put in place for temporary reasons, or to implement temporary traffic flow measures. Obviously, no one could possibly argue that that kind of sign should not be put up and then taken down again so as to suit the circumstances. However, I see no reason why that could not apply even if amendments 1 and 2 were accepted and those two subsections were left out of the Bill, which would be a sensible step to take.
Amendment 3 would add the words
“and approved by the Secretary of State for Transport”
to the end of clause 4(13). In an intervention, I said that I took issue to a small degree with my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch. First of all, by limiting the provision to the Secretary of State for Transport, there could be problems in the future if, for example, there were not a Secretary of State for Transport. Personally, I would prefer the description “the Secretary of State”. I heard the Minister say in an intervention that in any event, this matter should be dealt with by the Mayor of London, and there might well be some merit in that.
Jim Fitzpatrick
The hon. Gentleman says that he is not convinced by the arguments of his hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), who I think said that many of the decluttering proposals were being supported, indeed perhaps even sponsored, by English Heritage. Is the hon. Gentleman thus not only unconvinced, but confused that English Heritage is putting forward these proposals that are about trying to declutter our streets?
Mr Nuttall
What I cannot understand is why we would need legislation to remove a sign. I understand why legislation is needed to put a sign up, but I am not aware that once a sign is up legislation is required to remove it; someone could just go and take it down. I would be interested to know from others whether I am right. Perhaps after a certain period, a sign acquires some sort of importance. If it is attached to a listed building, it might become part of the listing. However, there is no evidence in the Bill that that is intended. There is merit in saying that special provisions should apply to the effect that clause 4 should not apply to any building in a conservation area.
Amendment 5 deals with a
“notice served under section 4(4), (8) or (11)(a).”
Such notices can be served in a number of ways. I leave aside the irrelevance of the whole clause; we will come to that in a moment. Clause 5(4) states that the notice could be left
“in the hands of a person who is…resident…employed on the land or leaving it conspicuously affixed to some building or object on or near the land”
or with someone who “appears to be resident”.
I have personal experience of doing the job. When I was first employed as a trainee legal executive, part of my role was to go to far-flung parts of Sheffield to serve such notices. I have done the job and know the problems of serving notices and trying to find somewhere suitable to fix them. I can imagine the situations that may arise when some poor council official is faced with being sent out on a rainy Friday morning to some distant part of London to try to serve a notice.
We need to consider the purpose of serving the notice. It is to ensure that a person affected by this legislation knows what is about to happen. The problem with clause 5(4) is that a notice can be given to someone who just “appears to be resident”. They might not be resident; they might be passing through or cleaning the windows. Some owners clean their own windows, while others employ people to do it. The person serving the notice might easily leave it with someone who they genuinely thought lived there, but that person might stuff it in their pocket without thinking twice.
I will not detain the House any further on this matter, but there is clearly scope for the four words in amendment 5 to be taken out of clause 5(4). The clause would be much better without them.
Amendment 6 would remove an even more bizarre subsection:
“This section shall not be taken to exclude the employment of any method of service not expressly provided for by it.”
In other words all the mentions of methods of serving a notice, such as by post, or sending it to an address that has been given or to a limited company, or, as I have just mentioned, of actually going and giving it to a person—an employee, perhaps—or putting it on an object nearby or on to the building, can be left aside and people can do whatever they like. They can just turn up, perhaps, or put it in a hot air balloon and hope it will drift by, and say, “Well, that was the method I thought of. It wasn’t a very good one, but this doesn’t exclude the employment of any method, so I thought of that. A colleague tried to convince me it should be a carrier pigeon, but I thought a balloon would be a good idea.” This is just nonsense.
My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) rightly brought up the question of e-mail. Subsection (5) may well be intended to provide for the use of e-mail, in which I case I would say that that is fine and in the modern world there is nothing wrong with serving notices by e-mail. Bearing in mind the long gestation of this Bill, however, I cannot understand why that is not expressly set out in it, if that is what the promoters had in mind.
Amendments 7 and 8 are best dealt with together. The issue in question is slightly confusing because it all revolves around the words “may” and “shall”. As we heard in the exchanges that took place a few moments ago, the interpretation of this clause is everything, really. The whole essence of the amendments of my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch is simply to make things clear. As the clause is drafted, the authority might make good the damage, but they might not. My hon. Friend’s amendment makes it the case that the highway “shall” be repaired. I appreciate the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East about that imposing an obligation on authorities, but I would have thought that they would want to see the highway properly maintained for a number of reasons, first from the point of view of their residents and secondly from the point of view of risk reduction. As we all know, it is a very costly exercise for local authorities not properly to maintain the highway, so I would have thought that they would in any event want to make good any damage caused by a contractor, and I see no problem with replacing “may” with “shall” or with moving the word “may” to before the word “recover” so that they may recover the expenses. It may well be that they will do that in every single case, so in 100% of cases they will have the right to go and recover the expenses from the contractor, but that does no more than the clause as drafted does. It already says that they may make good the damage and recover the expenses, so it implies that they may not. I cannot see why this amendment cannot be accepted.
Amendment 9 is very well thought out. I understand the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East made on behalf of the promoters, which was that they understandably want to recover the costs they have incurred, but I cannot understand why they should try to recover them from somebody who may have nothing to do with the damage caused. It makes sense to recover the costs from whoever has caused the damage, on the “polluter pays” principle—I entirely agree with that. However, simply saying that they should have the right to recover them from the owner of the land, without any explanation as to how the owner may be identified—without saying whether it is the freeholder, the leaseholder, the sub-lessee or the tenant—creates a lawyer’s paradise, a description I shall use in relation to amendment 20. I can just imagine the length of the litigation that might ensue from this provision were it allowed to remain in the Bill, so I strongly support amendment 9.
Mr Chope
On reflection, would my hon. Friend agree that the biggest problem with the clause is that it criminalises the good samaritan? As the explanatory memorandum points out, it is an offence to drive along a road in breach of a road traffic regulation, so if somebody finds one of these gates open and closes it to prevent other people from committing road traffic offences by driving through that open gap, they will be liable to a criminal penalty under this clause.
Mr Nuttall
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. That is one of the problems with the clause: it will potentially make criminals out of people who seek to do good. That cannot be right. It also prompts the question of what signage would be in place. In the context of the other clauses, we were talking about trying to remove signs, but there now might need to be new signs to warn people that such activity is a criminal offence. I entirely support the amendment and I look forward to hearing from others.
Mr Speaker
Order. I call Mr Philip Davies, and I am modestly confident that the contribution will be relatively brief as I feel sure that he will wish to get on with the consideration of amendment 10. Nevertheless, I have come back to hear colleagues and I wish to hear from the hon. Gentleman.
Philip Davies
Among your many other great qualities, Mr Speaker, you are clearly a mind reader. I was only just thinking to myself that I must be brief so that we could get on to the next group of amendments. I commend you for that.
I find myself in a rather difficult position. I usually agree totally with my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) in his amendments, which are always thoughtfully considered and well argued. He usually manages to persuade me. I am rather torn on this group of amendments, however, as although he has persuaded me on some of them he has not on others. My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) has done a great job in making the case for the proposers of the Bill and articulating their side of the argument and, in some cases, he has persuaded me.
I am not entirely sure how this might operate, as I am not an expert in the procedures of the House—unlike you, Mr Speaker, and my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch—but I want to tell my hon. Friend which of his amendments I think are strongest and on which he might, if possible, wish to divide the House. Some of the amendments are stronger than others.
Some of my hon. Friend’s amendments are superficially attractive, as they generally are. He made a good point with amendments 1 and 2, which highlight provisions in the clause that are either bad or unnecessary. However, there is some merit in having some flexibility for the London boroughs in organising how they do business. There might be good reasons for trialling measures or introducing them at different times, and that flexibility should be allowed. The provisions might be superfluous but I do not see from listening to the arguments that they are particularly dangerous.
Mr Chope
At the risk of hastening my hon. Friend on, will he specify which he thinks are the best amendments in order of preference? If his remarks are cut short, we will then have heard him putting the best first so that we can consider on which of them we might wish to divide the House.
Philip Davies
I am grateful to my hon. Friend and I certainly will do that. To cut to the chase, his strongest amendment is amendment 5, on the issue of serving notices and whether someone is a resident or, as the Bill states, “appears to be” the resident. For me, the situation is completely nonsensical. On what basis does somebody appear to be a resident? One of us might be delivering leaflets in our constituency, as we do, and might have just left the door of a place only for somebody from the local authority come along to serve the notice. Seeing that we are leaving the door, they might serve us with the notice because they presume, quite wrongly, that we are the resident. All sorts of ridiculous scenarios could ensue. Sometimes, such provisions are just for the convenience of the laziness of local officials, so that they can use the justification that as far as they could see somebody appeared to be a resident and they therefore did not have to take any reasonable steps to ensure that that person was a resident. Surely the least any resident affected by these provisions can expect is that the authority concerned makes a proper effort to serve them with the relevant notice. If it was enough for someone to appear to be a resident, the local authority could, for its convenience, idly hand that person the notice, come what may. That is a ludicrous situation that we in this House should not tolerate, so I hope that my hon. Friend will consider pressing amendment 5 to a Division; that would be doing us a great service.
My hon. Friend’s other particularly strong amendment is amendment 20, on gated roads. This is a very important issue. As I mentioned in my intervention on my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East, there are often well-meaning, well-intentioned provisions in legislation that have totally perverse outcomes. As I said, if a person drives through a red light to allow an emergency vehicle through, they are liable to prosecution for the offence of going through a red light. People might think, “It would be ludicrous if anyone who went through a red light just to allow an emergency vehicle through was prosecuted. Surely that would never happen,” but people have been prosecuted in those very circumstances. It does actually happen.
My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East says that when someone opens the gates for a good, common-sense reason, they will not be prosecuted. I do not doubt that that is his genuine belief, but we cannot pass legislation on the basis of what we think is likely to happen; we have to look at what the legislation actually states. We cannot allow perversity in the law. What if there is a terrible accident, and someone says, “For goodness’ sake, open that gate! An emergency vehicle is coming along in five minutes, and we need this person to be dealt with as soon as possible,” so a person opens the gate, and then finds themselves with a criminal record because they had done something they were not allowed to do under this legislation? That would be ludicrous, and we would be enshrining that kind of perversity in law.
On the other hand, someone who is encouraged to open a gate because an emergency vehicle is coming in five minutes’ time may say, “No, I’m not opening the gate, because I know the legislation, and I will be committing a criminal offence if I do.” We may end up with that kind of idiotic situation as an unintended consequence of the Bill. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch will try to find a way for amendments 20 and 6 to be put to the vote.
My hon. Friends the Members for Christchurch and for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) were very gung-ho about amendment 9, and I feared that they might seek to put it to a vote. I advise a certain amount of caution, because including a reference to the owner of the land in the legislation is quite sensible. Clause 6 does not say that the highway authority has to go after the owner; it just allows the authority the flexibility to do so, if that is the right person to pursue.
Let me briefly show why that may be a good idea. If the provision mentioned only the person carrying out the works and the person on whose behalf the works were being carried out, the following scenario could arise. Say a landowner’s permission is sought for work to be carried out. Although they are happy for that work to be done, and may well have encouraged it to be done, it may not have been carried out on their behalf, and they may not be the people carrying it out. However, they could quite easily be just as liable as the other people for the damage done, because they gave their consent for the work, although it was inappropriate.
Another scenario may come into play. My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch may unintentionally create a loophole with his amendment, because a wealthy landowner who does not want to be liable for any damage caused may get someone who has no means whatever to request that work be carried out, and get another person who has no means whatever to do the work. When the damage is done, the local authority has no means of recovering its money because the people who carried out and officially requested the work have nothing. The owner of the land, who actually wanted the work done in the first place, though that may not be evident at the time, gets away scot-free. I therefore fear that my hon. Friend could be creating a loophole, which would be unfortunate. Knowing him as I do, I am sure that would be an unintended consequence of what he is trying to achieve. I urge caution on him in pursuing amendment 9, even though I appreciate that my hon. Friends the Members for Christchurch and for Bury North feel that it is a particularly strong one.
Jim Fitzpatrick
I am grateful for the opportunity to follow the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies).
When the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) was initially moving his amendments in a self-deprecating fashion, saying that he is sometimes criticised for the role he plays in private Business, I said in an intervention that that is not the view on the Opposition Benches. We value the service he provides, ably assisted by his hon. Friends the Members for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) and for Shipley. I sometimes query whether the length of time taken is necessary, but I do not in any way, shape or form challenge, question or criticise the right to table amendments and make sure that legislation such as this is scrutinised.
Having listened to the arguments from the hon. Member for Christchurch and his hon. Friends and the explanations from the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), I regret to inform the hon. Member for Christchurch that should he press any of the amendments in this group to a vote, Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition will not be joining him in the Lobby.
Mr Chope
With your encouragement, Mr Speaker, this has been a very civilised debate and we have covered the ground. As I said, this is the first opportunity we have had to look at much of the detail of the Bill. I am immensely grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) for having responded to the points that were made. I have been convinced by many of the arguments, and he produced answers to many of my concerns.
With regard to the two amendments that my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) identified as being worthy of further consideration by testing the will of the House, my inclination is not to press amendment 5, because my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East said that clause 5, to which the amendment relates, is a complete replication of the existing law set out in section 233 of the Local Government Act 1972, in which case to divide the House would probably be to seek its indulgence in a way that I would prefer not to do. I hope that it will be possible in due course to seek the House’s view on amendment 20, which would mean having a Division after we consider the next group of amendments.
Having listened to the debate, it seems to me that the issue of gated roads has national application, rather than being confined to London. If we are to create a completely new offence, as both my hon. Friends the Members for Shipley and for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) have said, we must ensure that the legislation is as plain as a pikestaff so that everybody knows where they stand. As my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East said, we cannot be in the business of passing laws that are a matter of interpretation.
I think that it would be wrong to create through legislation a new criminal offence that could have the effect of penalising a good Samaritan. As my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley said, it is idiotic that a person who closes a gate after him, when it had been open, could find himself on the wrong side of the criminal law. There is too much control by political correctness. We now have a situation in which firemen are not prepared to go and rescue somebody because that might be against health and safety regulations. We do not want a situation in which a person does not close a gate in their neighbourhood that is normally closed because they fear that to do so might be to commit a criminal offence. For those reasons, and thanking everybody who has contributed to the debate, I seek the leave of the House, at the appropriate moment, to test its opinion on amendment 20.
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I am clear that he wishes at some stage to test the will of the House on amendment 20, but could I ask him to be clear on whether he wishes to do so in respect of amendment 1?
Mr Speaker
With this is will be convenient to consider amendments 11 to 19.
Mr Chope
These amendments relate to part 3 of the Bill, which deals with “Builders’ Skips”. It is important that we have a proper control regime for builders’ skips. It is also important that we are absolutely clear in our own minds about what the impact of the proposed changes to the Bill would be. For example, amendment 10 would add to section 8(1) so that the relevant highway authority could require the relevant person to provide them with the name and address of the owner of the builder’s skip
“where that information is not clearly and indelibly marked under the provisions of section 9”.
Section 9 provides that a skip must be
“clearly and indelibly marked with the owner’s name and with his telephone number or address”.
It seems to me that the best way of resolving this matter is to ensure that the skip must be, as amendment 15 suggests, clearly and indelibly marked with the owner’s name, telephone number and address. If that is done and there is no breach of the provision, it will not be necessary for the highway authority to exercise the power set out in clause 8 because the information that it is seeking to ascertain will already be in its knowledge and the knowledge of anybody else who looks at the skip in question. That would improve the wording of the Bill.
Amendment 11 challenges the current provision, which states:
“A requirement under this section shall specify the period within which it must be complied with, which must be a period no shorter than 3 working days beginning with the date on which the request was made.”
Mr Chope
I will take my hon. Friend’s intervention shortly, but I am going to anticipate it in my next comments. Prior to his looking at this because it was drawn to his attention by my amendment, nobody had thought through how reasonable a period of three working days would be in these circumstances. As a result of my tabling amendment 11 to insert 14 working days instead, he and the promoters of the Bill have seen the unreasonableness of the original proposition and the reasonableness of the amendment. He indicated in a letter that I received this morning that he would be willing to accept the amendment.
Bob Blackman
I congratulate my hon. Friend on tabling this amendment. The promoters are happy to accept it, and I do so on their behalf without the need for a Division.
Mr Chope
I am very grateful to my hon. Friend.
Amendments 12 and 13 deal with the level of penalty for any person convicted of an offence under clause 8(6), which says that
“in the case of an offence under paragraph (a)”
the fine should be “not exceeding level 3”. However, under paragraph (a) the penalty would apply to somebody
“on whom a requirement is imposed…if…without reasonable excuse he fails to comply within the period specified”.
That means that he would not be providing the information within 14 working days. That is, I submit, a relatively minor contravention that should merit, if indeed it is prosecuted at all, only a fine not exceeding level 1 on the standard scale. Obviously, if a person responds to the requirement and, in so doing, gives information that he knows is false in a material particular, that is much more serious. The gravity of that could be reflected in a fine not exceeding level 3 rather than a massive one at level 5. I look forward to my hon. Friend explaining why the fine levels in the Bill were chosen.
Philip Davies
Will my hon. Friend clarify what sums are involved at levels 1, 3 and 5 so that we may better assess a reasonable amount that somebody should be fined?
Philip Davies
Does my hon. Friend have in mind a scenario in which a skip that has been properly lit is vandalised by people who prevent it from being lit? As it stands the owner would still be liable even if he had done everything he could to ensure that the skip was properly lit. Does my hon. Friend think that “taking any reasonable steps” would protect somebody who was doing their best?
Mr Chope
That is exactly the scenario I had in mind. The owner might employ security guards to look at the skip regularly, but if the light was stolen or vandalised at some point would it be reasonable to say that the owner should be liable to a penalty charge?
When I spoke to amendment 10, I referred to amendment 15, which would strengthen the Bill because it would make it incumbent on the owner to take reasonable steps to ensure that the skip is clearly and indelibly marked with his name and telephone number and—rather than or—his address. Having a name and telephone number on a skip is not as good as having a name and address on a skip. I do not understand why the Bill’s promoters and drafters did not require both the telephone number and the address of the skip owner to be displayed. I would have thought that that would be much more preferable. That shows that these amendments are designed not to undermine the Bill, but to try to strengthen it where appropriate.
Amendment 16 relates back to clause 9(6)(d). Subsection (6) sets out, for the purposes of the London Local Authorities Act 2007, a number of provisions relating to
“the grounds on which representations may be made against a penalty charge 40 notice arising”,
one of which is paragraph (d), which notes that
“the contravention of the relevant provision in question was due to the act or default of another person and that he took all precautions and exercised all due diligence to avoid the contravention by himself or another person under his control.”
That seems brilliant, but subsection (8) states:
“Where the ground mentioned in subsection (6)(d) is relied on in any representations…the relevant highway authority may disregard the representations unless, before the representations are considered, the person making the representations has served on the relevant highway authority a notice in writing giving such information identifying or assisting in the identification of that other person as was then in his possession.”
That seems oppressive in the extreme. It would be fine to leave in subsection (6)(d) without subsection (8), and that is the purpose of amendment 16, which I hope will be acceptable to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman).
Philip Davies
Does my hon. Friend accept that if amendment 14 is accepted and requires someone to take “any reasonable steps” with regard to a properly lighted skip, we would not need subsection (8)? Amendment 14 is a much neater way of doing what the promoters of the Bill seem to be trying to do with their other provisions.
Mr Chope
Exactly. Sometimes the imagination of those who draft private Bills runs away with them and they think of all possible scenarios. Requiring someone who has taken all reasonable precautions to avoid a contravention to set out in writing their information about other people who might have been up to no good, goes too far.
On Second Reading, the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound), who I am sorry is not in his place, made a point about the immobilisation of builders’ skips—I think the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) also raised that issue. If a builder’s skip is unlit, not properly guarded, causing a nuisance, filled with rotting rubbish or whatever, is it sensible to immobilise it? That is the challenge I put to the promoters of the Bill with amendments 17 to 19, which would leave out clauses 12 to 14.
If the owners of a skip have offended against provisions in part 3 of the Bill, surely penalty notices and so on will be involved. To immobilise the skip in the meantime, thereby preventing its owner from removing it when it is not lit or causing a nuisance, seems to go slightly in the wrong direction. I am sure I am wrong about that, and when my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East responds to the debate he will put me right and explain why London would be a better place if all skips were immobilised. The fact that this was a cross-party issue and taken up on Second Reading was not properly addressed in Committee, so I hope it can be addressed in response to my remarks. I look forward to hearing from my hon. Friend in the hope that we can proceed with these amendments in a similar way to the previous ones.
Bob Blackman
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) for outlining his various amendments. I will run briefly through the promoters’ view of each. I trust that he will see the logic that they have applied.
The amendments relate to proposals for the decriminalisation of the position on builders’ skips. The power to enforce the rules and if necessary—I emphasise that—immobilise skips when relevant notices are not complied with will instead be put in the hands of the local authority. The authority will have to be convinced that immobilisation is the correct thing to do.
Amendment 10 suggests that information should be provided only if it
“is not clearly and indelibly marked under the provision of section 9”.
I think my hon. Friend has got the wording incorrect, because the requirement set out in the Bill is under section 139 of the Highways Act 1980. The problem, as Members will see if they come to various parts of London and see skips on the roads, is that there may be a name on the side of a skip, but it might not be accurate, because skips are swapped around various companies at various times. The amendment would place a severe burden on skip suppliers to ensure that the details were accurate. On that basis, I do not think it would be sensible to accept it, particularly given the rest of the Bill’s provisions.
The promoters wish to accept amendment 11, and on reflection believe that 14 days should be allowed for compliance. That makes better sense.
Amendment 12 is about the maximum fine for not complying with a request. For clarification, I point out that a level 3 fine is currently £1,000 and a level 1 fine £200. The Government are currently consulting on increasing those levels fourfold, and the Ministry of Justice has raised no objections to the proposal that level 3 be the appropriate fine for the offence set out in clause 8(5)(a). In fact, a level 3 fine is lower than the fine in some equivalent cases. For example, under section 16 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976, the maximum fine for the equivalent offence is level 5, which is £5,000. The promoters have sought the right level for an offence of this type. If skips are placed on the road in contravention of highways law, appropriate fines are needed for the local authority to remedy the situation. If the owner did not provide relevant details, the local authority would find it difficult to remove the skip, immobilise it or take appropriate penalty action against the supplier. People need to understand that if they deliberately flout the rules, they will get a severe fine.
Amendment 13 is about the offence of knowingly supplying false information in response to a legitimate request from a local authority for the name of the provider and owner of a skip. The Bill currently provides for a level 5 fine, which is £5,000. The amendment would lower the fine to £1,000. A draconian fine is required to prevent people from knowingly misleading the local authority, so that they cannot leave a dangerous skip on the road without the authority being able to identify who had done so.
Amendment 14 lowers the threshold at which a penalty charge notice could be served when a skip owner does not take reasonable steps to comply with the existing requirements. We need to make it clear that the Bill is a decriminalisation measure. At the moment, there are no “reasonable steps” elements in it. The amendment, therefore, would water down the requirements considerably. The general public—motorists, pedestrians and others—have a right to believe that if skips are placed on the public highway, they will be properly positioned, properly lit and will not be dangerous to motorists or pedestrians. The amendment would water down the proposals considerably and unfairly.
Mr Nuttall
My hon. Friend has said on a couple of occasions that this Bill is a decriminalisation measure. Many people will be somewhat mystified by a decriminalisation measure that clearly creates criminal offences.
Bob Blackman
The point is that these are criminal offences at the moment. The proposals would put the power relating to the public highway in the hands of local authorities, so that they would take action to prevent people from allowing dangerous structures—skips, in this particular case. There was something similar many years ago with parking control, for example. Parking control used to be enforced by the police. It was then decriminalised and put in the hands of local authorities to enforce. A similar position is proposed in the Bill. Instead of the police having to take action, local authority personnel would take action. That does not make it any less of a requirement. It shifts the requirement from the police, who I think we would all say have a big job to do anyway and should not have to do such work; it should be the job of local authorities. That is the purpose of the Bill, and that is why I describe it as a decriminalisation measure. The police enforce the criminal law; local authorities have a duty to enforce the Highways Act 1980 and other appropriate rules.
Mr Nuttall
On that point, will my hon. Friend inform the House what sort of court someone would be taken to under these offences? Who would enforce them?
Bob Blackman
A penalty charge notice would be issued initially. If that is paid, that is the end of the matter. If it is not paid, it is then presumably for the local authority—I would take advice on this—to take the matter to the county court or the magistrates court to push a position where liability orders would be obtained, and the enforcement action would follow in a similar vein to that of a parking offence on the public highway. Hopefully none of that would ever arise, because people would realise that if they failed to observe the rules they would face high penalties. We all want the streets to be safe. This is a set of proposals for when people deliberately flout the rules. We need draconian measures to ensure that that position is maintained.
Mr Chope
My hon. Friend says that it is perfectly reasonable that somebody who owns a skip should be subject to massive penalty charges if in the course of the night the lighting is stolen or vandalised and ceases to operate through no fault of their own. Can that really be fair?
Bob Blackman
The current position is that were that to happen and lighting were removed, a criminal offence would have been committed. The police would step in and take appropriate action against either the owner of the skip or the owner of the property at which the skip was based. Clearly, we want skips that are placed on the public highway to be lit properly and placed in a sensible and not a dangerous position. I will come on to that point later. We can water down the criminal law and remove the ability of people simply to claim, “It’s nothing to do with me, guv. What can I do if someone removes the lighting?” That does not change the fact, however, that someone has driven their car into a badly lit skip, causing immense damage. At that point, it will be a matter of ensuring that the wrong is put right, and that, if it is not, a fine is issued. It is as simple as that.
Amendment 15 would require names, addresses and telephone numbers to be marked on skips. That would change the law in London, meaning that skip owners would face much more draconian measures in London than outside it. [Laughter.] My hon. Friends smile and laugh, but when someone acquires a skip in London, they do not necessarily acquire it from a site in London; they might acquire it from a skip owner outside London, who would then have to take it to London. If the amendment were passed, the owner would be burdened with having to mark the address and phone number in a way that did not apply in the rest of the country.
I know plenty of skip-owning firms that come from way outside London to provide skips, as well providing skips in their own areas. The amendment would provide for a regulatory burden in London that did not exist elsewhere, resulting in the potential problem of people inadvertently falling foul of the law. I agree that there might be an argument for amending national legislation in the way that my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch suggested, but he is a promoter of deregulation, wherever possible, and I do not believe that we want to impose unnecessary regulation on businesses outside London. The amendment is therefore unnecessary and should not be pursued.
Amendment 16 deals with penalty charge notices. If we left out subsection (8), anyone served with a PCN could say, “It’s not me, guv. I’m not responsible.” As far as I am aware, whenever a PCN is issued for an offence on the highways, it is for the person served to substantiate whether someone else was responsible. If we left out the subsection, that person could say, “It’s nothing to do with me”, and then the authorities could not pursue those responsible. For that reason, we would resist the amendment.
Mr Nuttall
The logical conclusion is that the person on whom the authorities have served the notice must turn investigator and solve the problem themselves.
Bob Blackman
Clearly, it would be incumbent on the person served with the PCN to substantiate that the contravention was down to someone else, in the same way as they would make representations against any other PCN. The local authority would then examine those grounds, and if they were relevant and someone else was responsible, the PCN would be withdrawn and issued to the relevant person. That is exactly how local authorities deal with highways offences.
Amendments 17, 18 and 19 deal with potential immobilisation. Clearly, local authorities in London want the power to immobilise a skip if they deem it appropriate, but of course if a skip is in a dangerous position on the highways, the last thing they are going to do is immobilise it; they will want it removed. If, however, it is in a reasonably safe position and a notice to change the lighting has been issued, the local authority could step in, light the skip and immobilise it using the devices on the market that allow that to be done, making it safe for pedestrians and other road users. At the same time, they could pursue the person who has contravened the rules. A local authority would do that only if it was appropriate to do so, which is quite right. Amendments 17, 18 and 19 deal with that issue.
One of the challenges is what is in the skip. Obviously local authorities need the discretion to remove anything that is inappropriate.
Jim Fitzpatrick
If I remember correctly, my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) pointed out on Second Reading that many people did not realise that skips could be immobilised, given their size and weight. However, the hon. Gentleman has just explained that such devices are available. When it is safe, their use may be appropriate to prevent people from flouting their responsibilities when they place skips on our roads.
Bob Blackman
I thank the hon. Gentleman for clarifying the issue.
In summary, let me say on behalf of the promoters that we accept amendment 11 and oppose the rest of the amendments in this group. Part 3 of the Bill deals with appropriate action to make London streets safer when people put skips on the public highway, by ensuring appropriate fines and enforcement action when people break or flout the rules. We will accept amendment 11, but I invite my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch not to press the other amendments.
Philip Davies
I seek to fulfil the same role in this debate as I did in the debate on the previous group of amendments, by speaking briefly and highlighting for my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) where I think he is on to a winner and also where he has not necessarily persuaded me of the merits of his case.
I am rather puzzled by the whole debate on amendment 10. My hon. Friend made a good case for saying that we should ask people to supply information about the owner of a builder’s skip only
“where that information is not clearly and indelibly marked under the provisions of section 9,”
as his amendment sets out. If I understood my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) correctly—I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong, which I may well be—he was saying that because skips change ownership quite often, having just a name, telephone number, address or whatever it might be on the skip would not necessarily be a good enough indicator of the actual owner, because the skip might have changed hands a couple of times since those markings were applied. That might well be true, but the problem is that it flies in the face of clause 9, which states that the owner would have to ensure—I might add that anyone who did not do this would have to pay a fine—that
“the skip is clearly and indelibly marked with the owner’s name and with his telephone number or address”.
The promoters of the Bill cannot have it both ways. They cannot say that such information is required for the purposes of clause 9, but that it would be unfair to require it in clause 8. I would advise my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East to have another think, because my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch is simply proposing a modest, common-sense amendment that goes with the flow of the Bill, not against it.
Mr Nuttall
Perhaps I can assist my hon. Friend. The difference might be that clause 8(1) refers to “the name and address”, whereas clause 9(3)(b)(iii) refers to “telephone number or address”, so perhaps the owner could give a telephone number, but not an address.
Philip Davies
I appreciate that point, but amendment 10, standing in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch, simply says that if the information was already clearly marked, it would not have to be requested. To me that seems a sensible and modest amendment, and I certainly agree with it.
I am delighted that amendment 11 has been accepted—we do not need to waste any time on that. I do not intend to delay the House for long by discussing amendments 12 and 13. I do not have a strong opinion on the level of the fine, but I want to make a wider point on legislation generally. If we look at different pieces of legislation “in silo”, we might find individual fines appropriate or inappropriate, but we could end up in the ridiculous situation whereby some serious offences attract small penalties and some minor ones attract severe ones. Instead, we ought to look at the criminal justice system as a whole, to determine the appropriate level for different severities of crime. I wonder whether this particular offence could attract a much more severe penalty than other, more serious, crimes.
Mr Chope
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his support of my amendment. Does he accept that exactly what he is asking for is in a sense reflected in clause 9(3)(b)(iv), which provides that
“the skip is removed as soon as practicable after it has been filled”?
It does not say that it should be removed as soon as it has been filled, but as soon as is practicable. That has been accepted by the promoters, but not extended to other provisions.
Philip Davies
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. His amendment goes with the flow of the legislation rather than against it, and I think this is a genuine improvement.
On amendment 15, I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East. Making the provisions for London much more onerous than in other parts of the country would be unfair. The only thing I will say—and here I hope my hon. Friend will forgive me if I tease him somewhat—is that his point about not providing different rules for London than obtain in other parts of the country is the argument that we have been making in respect of virtually every other part of this particular Bill. He has refused to accept that particular logic with all the other provisions, so it seems to me ironic that he was prepared to pull that argument out of the hat when it suited him, when he has denied it in respect of lots of other amendments on this legislation. I hope he will forgive me for teasing him in that way.
On the final three amendments—amendments 17, 18 and 19—I thought my hon. Friend for Christchurch made a very good point in his usual engaging and amusing way in saying that if a skip is causing a particular problem in a local community, it is surely the wrong solution to immobilise it and keep it there unnecessarily for even longer. I am not entirely sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East answered that point to my satisfaction, because there is an unerring logic to what my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch was saying. It may well be that there are occasions when immobilisation is the best solution, although my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch and I cannot think of them. I am prepared on that basis to give my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East a rather dubious benefit of the doubt.
I do not want to extend my remarks any further, but I reiterate my hope that if the opportunity allows it, my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch will seek to press his amendment 14, which is the strongest of his amendments and the one that would improve this legislation without doubt.
Mr Nuttall
If I may, I will start where my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) left off, and work in reverse order through this set of amendments, presented so ably a short while ago by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope). I am grateful, as ever, for the clarification of what might be termed the case for the defence, so ably made by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman).
Starting with amendments 17, 18 and 19, I entirely agree that it is somewhat bizarre that the solution to a problem skip is to immobilise it, but I was persuaded by what my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East had to say on the matter. To be perfectly honest, I have never seen one of these devices, and I can only imagine what they must look like. I understand that they both immobilise and light up the skip at the same time, which seems an eminently sensible idea for dealing with a problem skip. I have always thought that even empty skips are particularly difficult to move, so I would not think that they needed much help to be immobilised, although I am prepared to accept that that may well be a solution in some cases.
I turn to the other easy one—amendment 11, which has sensibly been accepted by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East and the promoters. That demonstrates the sense and worth of the work done by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch in going through the Bill in some detail and tabling the amendments. The promoters have accepted that the correct period is 14 rather than three working days.
I turn to the slightly more contentious amendments. I looked at amendment 10 and thought it was merely a clarification. There would be no point in criminalising someone or causing them to commit an offence if the information was patently obvious from looking at the side of the skip, in accordance with clause 9. Apparently, the promoters think otherwise. Personally, I would support amendment 10.
We now move neatly into the debate about decriminalisation. We are not really decriminalising these things, just moving the responsibility for taking action from one authority, the police, to another authority, the local authority. The net result is the same. Anyone reading language such as “commits an offence” would think, “Crikey! They mean a criminal offence.” Apparently, however, the measure represents decriminalisation. I humbly suggest that if clause 8 had read, “A person on whom a requirement is imposed under this section shall be liable to a civil penalty,” that would have been more appropriate if the intention was to decriminalise.
I entirely agree with what my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley said about amendment 14. It is entirely right that when it comes to the liability of someone who has committed a skip offence, to use some shorthand—[Interruption.] Not a skipping offence, but a builder’s skip offence. When it comes to such a person’s liability, the inclusion of the words
“take any reasonable steps to”
is entirely sensible. Although it might look as though one of those specific offences was being committed, there could be a whole host of reasons why a person ought not to be held liable.
The issue of criminalisation is important when considering the question of proof. If the offences are to remain criminal, the burden of proof is “beyond all reasonable doubt”. However, if they are to be dealt with according to a civil burden of proof, “the balance of probabilities” applies—it could be 51:49. There is a whole host of difference between liability in criminal and civil cases. The matter needs to be nailed down. We need to be absolutely clear about whether we are decriminalising this. Is it going to be a criminal offence, or is it going to be a civil offence and is it going to be dealt with under the civil law? That will affect the burden of proof required of those who seek to enforce these requirements.
Mr Chope
Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the big problems is that local authorities have already demonstrated through the use of decriminalised penalty notices that they can be over-zealous and keen to get the maximum amount of revenue irrespective of the justice of a situation, which is why we hear all these stories of traffic wardens hiding and then creeping up on unsuspecting motorists so that they can get extra penalty points imposed and extra fines for themselves and their local authority?
Mr Nuttall
My hon. Friend makes a good point, as that is one reason why one is slightly sceptical about this sort of clause. Just this day I received a letter from a constituent raising exactly that point about the behaviour of traffic enforcement officers in Bury; it detailed how they have been served with a penalty notice in circumstances where it would have been easy to deal with the matter in another way if more common sense had been applied. That would have avoided having to give a local resident a penalty notice. Such examples make me want to agree with my hon. Friend’s proposition that people will be suspicious that this provision is there to make it easy for the local authority officer to find somebody. It does not matter who they find on this basis; they can give the notice to almost anybody and they will be able to say, “We have done what we can. It is now your problem. If you weren’t responsible, it is now your responsibility to find somebody who was.” I humbly submit that that is clearly not the right way for things to be done. It should be the responsibility of the responsible officer of the local authority to find out who is responsible, rather than expecting a person on whom a notice has been served to identify that other person for the purposes of determining who has committed the offence.
If I were to enter this little competition of saying which amendment I would press, I would opt for amendment 14, as it is entirely reasonable that where someone has taken reasonable steps to avoid committing an offence, they should not be held liable under this part of the Bill. With that, I will wait to hear what others have to say.
Mr Chope
In summing up an excellent debate, may I thank my hon. Friend the Members for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), for Shipley (Philip Davies) and for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) for their contributions? If the Minister had contributed, the debate would have been even better, as indeed it would have been had the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) spoken—they demonstrated unusual self-restraint on these important issues, particularly on the issue of “national versus local”.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley said, the promoters of the Bill are now saying that it would be unreasonable potentially to impose on operators from outside London a requirement to put their name, telephone number and address on a skip, given that the legislation that applies outside London requires only the telephone number or the address. Clearly, there is an inconsistency between the approach of the promoters to those of us who argue that we should have national legislation on these issues rather than localised legislation.
Mr Nuttall
I appreciate that my hon. Friend is summing up, but are we not talking about the same case that was made earlier in respect of amendment 20 and gated roads?
Mr Chope
Exactly the same point applies in relation to gated roads, which is why it is a pity that we have not heard from the two Front-Bench spokespeople on where they think the balance should be between individual local authorities, or groups of local authorities, legislating in this area and a responsibility for the Government to try to introduce a national regime.
My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East has gone through each of the amendments seriatim and tried—
Mr Chope
I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman is joining in with the debate, albeit from a sedentary position, because he has been referred to already in dispatches, as he might know. We had been hoping to hear from him on immobilisation devices, but he has now put on record his enthusiasm for the word “seriatim”.
Let me take the amendments one by one for the benefit of the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound). My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East said that he did not think that amendment 10 would be appropriate because of the conflict between the national and local legislation. This is an opportunity for London to lead the field so that others can follow. It would be sensible, taking amendments 15 and 10 together, to require that in London skips should have the name, address and telephone number of the owner clearly and indelibly marked on them. I am disappointed that the promoters are not interested in accepting those amendments but I am delighted that amendment 11 is to be accepted.
On amendments 12 and 13, I am grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing to our attention that there is a proposal to increase fourfold the maximum fine levels on the standard scales. I think that would have quite a significant impact on the cost of living of the criminal classes. It would also put into a negative position all those provisions where the maximum fine is level 3—£1,000, which is reasonable—
Business without Debate
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Prescription Charges (Long-term Conditions)
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
That the draft Alternative Investment Fund Managers Regulations 2013, which were laid before this House on 10 June, be approved.
The House divided: - Ayes: 273 / Noes: 27 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)
We should rejoice at the wonderful advances in medical science, particularly in the last half-century, which have enhanced the quality of life of people with serious health conditions, and we should give thanks to those whose research made those advances possible. Some people’s lives have been extended, or even saved. The invaluable research work goes on. I pay tribute to those involved; they deserve our gratitude. In the case of cystic fibrosis, I should mention the Cystic Fibrosis Trust, pioneering researchers at places such as the Royal Brompton hospital, and patients and their families, past and present, without whose endurance the present survival rates would never have been achieved.
It is not that long ago that for some conditions, such as cystic fibrosis, life expectancy was so low that few lived beyond their teens. Today, living into the 40s is the average, and that will improve still further; of that I am sure. Although there have been advances in helping those with serious health conditions, to the point that today people are better placed than at any time in history, the reality is that the rules, regulations and bureaucracy of prescription charge exemptions are stuck in a time warp, taking us back to nearly half a century ago. It is astonishing that while we have witnessed medical advances and breakthroughs on a large scale, achieved by those driving forward the boundaries of medical research, successive Governments, wedded to the bureaucracy of the 1960s, have not moved forward an inch when it comes to helping people with serious health conditions to pay for prescriptions. People are forced to pay, in many instances to stay alive, and in every instance to sustain a quality of life that is seriously compromised if the right level of medication is not taken.
I am grateful to the Prescription Charges Coalition, which comprises 27 organisations, including the Cystic Fibrosis Trust, with which I have had an association for 16 years, and Asthma UK, the British Heart Foundation, Crohn’s and Colitis UK, the National Rheumatoid Arthritis Society, Parkinson’s UK, Rethink Mental Illness, the Royal Pharmaceutical Society, the Terence Higgins Trust and the Multiple Sclerosis Society. They cover a wide range of serious conditions, and they are united in calling on the Government to put right an anomaly. I am confident that those who, 45 years ago, drew up the list of exemptions would today, because of medical advances, include on the list those conditions represented by the Prescription Charges Coalition.
Yesterday morning, the associate parliamentary health group held a seminar in the Jubilee Room entitled “Public health killers: tackling obesity, smoking and alcohol abuse”. Why does the national health service treat those who are guilty of abusing their body better, in financial terms, than those to whom mother nature has given serious health conditions? We should contrast what the Prescription Charges Coalition is calling for—free prescriptions for those who need them to live—with the £5 billion spent every year on health problems associated with being overweight or obese, or the £2.7 billion per annum cost to the NHS because of alcohol misuse. Alcohol-related admissions to hospital, according to Department of Health statistics, are rising at a rate of around 11% a year. Smoking is the biggest killer, accounting for nearly 80,000 preventable deaths in England in 2011. What I do not have a figure for, but it must cost the NHS billions of pounds, is dealing with the consequences of people taking illegal drugs.
Given that enormous cost to the public purse as a result of self-inflicted lifestyle choices, I call on the Government to look fairly on those with health conditions whose lifestyle choices are restricted. The cost of what I am seeking is modest in comparison with the huge sums that I have listed for self-inflicted body abuse.
I am pleased that this evening I can raise a serious issue, which I also highlighted in the last parliamentary Session through early-day motion 1, signed by 41 hon. Members, namely the terrible unfairness faced by those with cystic fibrosis who have to pay prescription charges. That also applies to those with other conditions embraced by members of the Prescription Charges Coalition, who I know will understand why, in the limited time available, I will concentrate my remarks on CF; however, my case for CF applies equally to the other conditions.
As I am sure the Minister will be aware, the criteria that determine eligibility for exemption from prescription charges for those with certain medical conditions were laid down in 1968. The only slight amendment was the welcome addition in 2009 of cancer. In 1968, someone with cystic fibrosis was unlikely to live until adulthood. I am pleased to say that, 45 years on, life expectancy is 41-plus. However, the condition continues to claim the lives of younger adults, teenagers and even children. For the 10,000 people in the UK with cystic fibrosis—contrast that relatively low figure with the 945,000 alcohol-related admissions to hospitals each year: 10,000 versus 945,000—their condition is such that they are especially prone to infection and may eventually require a lung transplant.
I therefore support the call made last Friday by the hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), who wants the law changed in respect of organ donations so that there should be presumed consent. This follows the welcome announcement last week by the Welsh Assembly of a move towards presumed organ donation consent significantly to increase the number of organs for transplant. We should do the same in England.
Those with cystic fibrosis have a great deal to contend with throughout their lives and, on reaching adulthood, they face the additional burden of having to pay prescription charges to stay alive unless—this would be laughable if it was not so serious—they have insulin-dependent diabetes, which gives them an exemption from paying. It is such nonsense, you could not make it up.
Tonight’s debate is about the striking inequality and the significant impact that prescription charges are having on people in England who have a range of long-term conditions, but not those living in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. In support of the Prescription Charges Coalition, I call for a fairer system of exemptions. It is a matter of considerable concern that many people with long-term conditions are not collecting or taking their medicines effectively because of the cost, as is all too clearly illustrated in the Prescription Charges Coalition’s recent report, “Paying the Price”.
Many MPs will be aware of reports of constituents struggling to afford their prescriptions and the impossible choices they have had to make between paying for food, clothing, housing and other bills or their prescription medication. Austerity has added to the problems. People with long-term conditions are not “all in this together”, as the Chancellor would have us believe. For many, it means splitting tablets in half, missing doses or substituting cheaper but less effective alternatives to eke out medication until pay day. Inevitably, individual health suffers and there are numerous knock-on effects. The Prescription Charges Coalition’s survey found, very worryingly, that more than one third of those who pay for each prescription had not collected at least one item because of the cost. Indeed, the Royal Pharmaceutical Society reports that pharmacists are often asked, “Which of these prescriptions can I do without?”
I am advised that the majority of those who reported that they were not taking their medicine as prescribed said that their health had got worse as a result, with additional treatment then being required. Emergency admission to hospital was the dramatic and costly consequence in 10% of cases. For example, one respondent said: “I ended up being hospitalised for two weeks because I missed five days of medication.” Another stated: “I could not afford the prescribed medication, went without, and ended up having panic attacks and losing my job.”
The implications of this are extensive, not only for the individual’s quality of life and long-term health outcomes, but with regard to the impact on their families, on their ability to remain in employment and independent of state support, and also, of course, on the NHS. At a breakfast briefing this morning I was surprised to be told that this is not a matter for consideration by the Care Quality Commission. This suggests a lack of joined-up thinking on the health needs of our country. The stress and anxiety caused by worrying about how to afford prescription costs can exacerbate a condition and the ability to manage it effectively. Individuals also report cutting back on food or utility bills to afford medicines and that could also clearly have an impact on their health.
Those with long-term conditions do not choose to be ill. They face a daily routine of various types of medication and physiotherapy to maintain any quality of life. The Department of Health is aware of the survey by the Prescription Charges Coalition, so I hope that the Minister will tonight confirm that she is personally aware that more than half of those who reported not taking their medicine as prescribed cited cost as the reason. Perhaps she can explain why there is discrimination against those with long-term conditions who live in England. Why cannot they get the same deal as those living in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland?
I suggest to the Minister that one way of helping immediately would be to scrap the 28-day prescribing limit for those with stable, long-term conditions on regular maintenance medication. Having to make monthly trips to the doctor and pharmacist for repeat prescriptions is a further and unnecessary inconvenience that means extra cost and additional distress, particularly when errors occur with prescriptions. Patients might need to take time off work, depending on surgery opening hours. Scrapping the limit would also ease pressure on doctors.
In the past, the category of person I am referring to could have a three-month supply, which is cheaper and more convenient for those who require medication. I hope that the new clinical commissioning groups will consider carefully the need for individual prescribing for optimal treatment plans and avoid the rigid 28-day limit. Please may we have central guidance from the Department of Health?
The Secretary of State stated last year that those with long-term conditions and older people with multiple long-term conditions are among his key priorities. In that context, it is important to remember that it is not necessarily older people who have long-term conditions. A number of long-term conditions, such as cystic fibrosis, start from birth, while others, such as Crohn’s disease, rheumatoid arthritis and multiple sclerosis, are commonly diagnosed in the teens and twenties. Those conditions have their most devastating impact just as young people are becoming adults and are attempting to complete their education, entering relationships, learning to balance their budgets and forming their career and life path.
In addition to all the usual challenges that poses, those young people have to face the additional pressure of a lifelong illness that will have a considerable social, emotional, functional and economic impact on their daily lives. A significant aspect for many will be the requirement to pay for their medicine until retirement. Is that fair? I refer to my earlier observation about the billions of pounds the NHS spends treating those whose approach to life has damaged their health. I repeat: is that fair? The prescription prepayment certificate and the NHS low-income scheme are obviously better than nothing, but they are like using a sticking plaster on a gaping wound.
Seven years ago the Health Committee produced a report on NHS charges that concluded:
“The system of health charges in England is a mess.”
It still is. The Committee also observed:
“The system of medical exemptions to the Prescription Charge is particularly confusing.”
It still is.
I challenge the Minister on why the recommendations set out in the prescription charges review, undertaken at the behest of the previous Government by Professor Sir Ian Gilmore when he was president of the Royal College of Physicians, have not been implemented. They would greatly assist those with long-term conditions. His eminently sensible, measured and practical approach would be likely to have all manner of positive effects. Removing this aspect of health inequality, this barrier to getting and keeping well, would facilitate effective self-management, reducing unnecessary pressure on health professionals’ time and hospital A and E departments. It would also help people stay in work and off benefits and improve their long-term health conditions.
There is no excuse for an inequality that stretches back more than 40 years. The Prescription Charges Coalition, the Health Committee report and Professor Gilmore’s recommendations provide ample justification for this injustice to be put right. I urge the Minister to state tonight that this will happen.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anna Soubry)
I congratulate my—I have to say—hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell) on securing the debate, although I do not think that he made much of a friendly speech, and I have no doubt that he will not be much impressed by my response. He rightly brings the subject before the House, as is his right, and so he should. However, I think that we have to be completely realistic and honest about the situation in which we find ourselves. The simple truth is that if we extended the exemptions to all long-term conditions it would cost a considerable amount of money, and, in the words of a member of the previous Government, there is no money. I am very proud of the fact that the coalition has been able to secure the NHS budget at a time when we have had to take tough decisions and cut other budgets. We have not only maintained the NHS budget; by 2015 we will have seen a rise in the amount of money going into the NHS under the tenure of this Government. I am very proud of that.
My hon. Friend asked whether it is right and fair that all these long-term conditions do not receive free prescriptions. He then drew a contrast with people who, in his words, have “self-inflicted lifestyle choices”, referring to those who have drug addition, alcohol addiction, obesity problems and so on. I would challenge him on that. I do not take the view that it would be right in any way, shape or form to make such suggestions about people who are having their prescriptions paid for because of their income status but have those afflictions. I can assure him that addiction is not some lifestyle choice. Many people who are addicts are born addicts; it is a disease that needs treatment, and those who are unfortunate enough to suffer from it need our support. I am sure that he is not suggesting that we should take money away from those unfortunate people in order to give it to those who are, I accept, equally in need.
Sir Bob Russell
I regret that the Minister is drawing an inference that I did not intend in any way. I was merely making a comparison in saying that some people have been dealt unfairly with by mother nature in having to pay to stay alive, whereas others who we are told can be treated are, for whatever reason, getting free treatment.
Anna Soubry
I am pleased that my hon. Friend has made that point, because some people, I can assure him, would have made such an interpretation. I am pleased that we have set the record straight.
In fact, the current system does provide support for people who need it the most. In 2011, for example, about 94% of all prescription items were dispensed free of charge at the point of dispensing. It is estimated that about 60% of people in England are exempt from charges. A wide range of exemptions exist to help the most vulnerable, those requiring prescriptions the most and those most in need of support. People aged 60 and over, women who are pregnant or are in the 12-month period following childbirth, those on income support, those with pension credit, those on income-based jobseeker’s allowance, those on income-related employment and support allowance, and those in receipt of a variety of tax credits all rightly receive free prescriptions.
As we have heard, people who use prescriptions frequently can buy a prescription prepayment certificate that allows anyone to obtain all the prescriptions they need for the equivalent of £2 per week. The cost of the annual prescription prepayment certificate has been frozen at £104 for the past four years, and the cost of the three-monthly certificate has been frozen at £29.10 for two years. There are options whereby people can pay by direct debit. I concede that the system is not perfect, but it is very good.
My hon. Friend asked, properly, why we have this system in England whereas in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland prescriptions are free. I am sure that he knows the answer: health is a devolved matter. It is for those in the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly to decide how they will spend their budget. The simple truth is that making prescriptions free for all in those countries has taken money away from other areas of their health budget. We have decided to spend our allocation of money in a different way, and rightly so, especially when we consider that the prepayment certificate of £104 a year is eminently fair for people who are unfortunate enough to have the long-term conditions that my hon. Friend identified and described. It is important to put forward that argument as well.
As it happens, I suffer from a long-term condition—asthma—and have the benefit of an excellent GP. I am sure that that will not win me any extra favours with my hon. Friend—although I am sure he will be grateful for my comments—but I, like most of us, have an outstanding GP who has made sure that my medication is at such a level that I do not now need a prepayment certificate, because we are managing my condition.
I am not suggesting that one should always be alert to the financial cost of issuing prescriptions, but I think it is right and fair to say that many general practitioners are aware of it. Increasingly, prescribing GPs—in other words, all GPs—are taking on the huge responsibility of bearing in mind the cost to the national health service of the prescriptions they issue their patients.
I pay tribute to the Prescription Charges Coalition, which has worked with officials in my Department to help raise awareness of the help available to patients with the cost of their prescriptions, particularly the prescription prepayment certificate. The awareness-raising work with the PCC has already had encouraging results. Purchases of certificates in the first quarter of this year were 13% higher—about 50,000 extra—than in the same period in 2012, when this work began. We continue to work with the PCC to consider how we might build further on that awareness-raising activity.
My hon. Friend asked a number of questions and I hope I will be able to answer them all. If not, the usual rules will apply and my officials will, of course, write to him. Since 1968 the only condition that has been added to the list is cancer in September 2008, as announced by the then Prime Minister. I pay tribute to the work of Sir Ian Gilmore. The Health Committee has produced a report and answers have been provided, but I think it is fair to say that this is all about cost. I accept that things have changed a lot since the late 1960s, but the simple reality is that if we extended free prescriptions to all long-term conditions it would cost an incredible amount of money, and I am afraid to say that that is money that we simply do not have.
It would be very difficult to consider particular conditions in isolation and to somehow choose one. My hon. Friend has advanced the case of cystic fibrosis and one can understand why: nobody chooses to have cystic fibrosis; it is a thoroughly unpleasant condition.
Sir Bob Russell
I did say that I was using cystic fibrosis as an example of various long-term conditions. All I ask is that the Minister and her officials look at the recommendations of Professor Sir Ian Gilmore, because at least that would give some encouragement to people with long-term conditions that the Government were looking at their situation seriously.
Anna Soubry
That is a valid point, well made, but the Government’s attitude is that it would not be right in the current situation to look at just one particular condition in isolation, because others would argue, with vigour—and rightly so—that their condition was as valid of an exemption as any other.
My hon. Friend asked why the Government have not introduced more flexible prescribing patterns and moved away from the 28-day prescribing policy. The responsibility for prescribing, including repeat prescriptions and the duration of prescriptions, rests with GPs and other doctors who have the expertise and who rightly take clinical responsibility for that particular aspect of a patient’s care. Doctors can prescribe flexibly and take decisions about prescribing patterns on the basis of a patient’s need. Ultimately the decision must be left to the doctor, but guidance has been issued by the National Prescribing Centre about prescription terms, encouraging prescribers to be receptive to the needs of patients and to use appropriate prescribing patterns.
My hon. Friend asked about the lack of relevant data on the costs and consequences of the current prescription charging system. At the moment, some £450 million is raised each year by charging people for their prescriptions, which is equivalent to about 13,500 qualified nurses or 3,500 hospital consultants per year. One can see the power of that money from prescription charging, but given the lack of relevant data, more research is needed to inform policy. It is important that we make best use of the available evidence and identify gaps in knowledge. We would, of course, welcome input from groups such as the Prescription Charges Coalition about any evidence it is aware of or studies that may have been undertaken in that area. That would help inform any research proposals that the Department of Health might consider in its assessment of research priorities. I hope that may be of interest and comfort to my hon. Friend.
As I have said, the Government report that 90% of prescription items are dispensed without charge, but up to three quarters of those of working age with long-term conditions are believed to pay for their prescriptions. Current exemptions provide valuable help for those on the lowest incomes. They must always be our priority because they simply do not have the means to pay for a large number of prescriptions.
Older people generally have the greatest need for medicine, and I am sure that my hon. Friend will have visited a pharmacy and seen, as I did in my constituency, the amount of medication that is often required for older people, which can be quite astronomical in size and complexity. Many older people have good, long, happy and healthy lives because of the abundance of medicines they receive, and that is one reason why we have an exemption for older people.
Although people with long-term conditions will continue to pay for their prescriptions, the prescription prepayment certificate ensures that they can pay at considerably reduced cost. By repeatedly freezing the price of a prescription prepayment certificate and introducing a direct debit payment option to spread the cost of a 12-month certificate, we ensure that those certificates are accessible to those who need multiple prescriptions.
I am happy to take an intervention, but I hope I have explained the Government’s current policy. It is right and proper for this issue to be raised, but at the moment the simple truth is—it gives no one any pleasure to say this—we simply do not have the money to do all that my hon. Friend urges on me.
Question put and agreed to.
Westminster Hall
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Postal Services in Scotland after 2014
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
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Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)
After 2014, there are two alternative futures. There is the possibility of separation or of Scotland remaining within the United Kingdom. The debate must take into account which is more likely. I looked this morning at the William Hill website, and I see that it is 9:1 on that there will be a no vote in the referendum. Bookies are not in the business of losing money, so I think it is safe to assume that the bookies have got it right. Therefore the question of separation is now largely hypothetical.
Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on obtaining the debate in such a timely fashion, given the pretty dreadful announcements that we expect later this afternoon in the House. Does he agree that in this situation competitors should operate on a level playing field, and that the private sector should not be allowed to cherry-pick some of our greatest national assets?
Mr Davidson
Indeed. I intend to come on to that, but I want to make the initial point that now, as distinct from when I first applied for the debate, the question of separation is largely hypothetical. Therefore we need to discuss the future of postal services in Scotland in the context of remaining in the United Kingdom. Many of us who have been involved in previous elections have seen, either from our own party or the one that is now in government, a decapitation strategy, but I never expected to see the yes campaign operating a self-decapitation strategy, ejecting members of its leadership, as it is doing. It is now pretty clear that the yes campaign is no more than a sham. Essentially it is an SNP campaign for separation.
I want to turn to the question of the future of Royal Mail within the Union and under the present Government. I never thought that I would see a Liberal Secretary of State proposing privatisation of the Post Office, and a Liberal Minister supporting it in a Westminster Hall debate. Who—among those of us who can remember how Liberals previously campaigned for this post office to remain open, or in defence of that aspect of Royal Mail, always blaming someone else—would have thought that they would be the drivers of the privatisation of Royal Mail? A Liberal Secretary of State will this afternoon call for its privatisation. What a turn-up for the books. Well, well.
We must be clear about the Royal Mail’s position. It is clearly not a company in crisis. It has been suggested that it faces imminent danger, and that privatisation is the only answer. That is simply not correct. Its profits more than doubled in the past year, to £403 million from £152 million in 2012. Revenues grew by 5%. The Government, correctly, have taken over the assets and liabilities of the Royal Mail pension scheme, which saves the company £300 million a year. Parcel volumes are growing. Royal Mail, admittedly, used to be a letters company with a parcels business attached. Now it is the converse: essentially a parcels company with a letters business attached. Therefore, adjustments are obviously required. However, it is adjusting. Its business is expanding and it is doing exceptionally well.
Why, then, is there a drive by the Government for privatisation, fronted by the Liberals? Is it because, as has been argued, Royal Mail can have access to money only if it is in the private sector? That is clearly not correct. Network Rail, for example, which is essentially in the public sector, has access to private sector money and borrowing. When Moses came down from the mountain with the ten commandments, he did not also have the Treasury rules on a block of stone. Those rules were drawn up by the Treasury and can be changed by the Government. The Government—and particularly the Liberals, which I find particularly appalling—choose to argue that Royal Mail needs private capital and that the only way it can be brought into the business is through privatisation.
The Labour party is opposed to privatising Royal Mail. We want to clarify why the Government are in such a rush and are pressing forward with the proposal now. Is it simply because of the deficit in the Government finances, and because they want a large influx of money to pay for bankers’ bonuses? Should Royal Mail be privatised to pay for bankers’ bonuses? That is one of the questions to which we need an answer from the Government. There are credible alternatives to privatisation. There is no crisis to solve, and therefore it is inexplicable—other than that it is ideologically-driven—that the Government should be putting the proposal forward.
The obvious anxiety is that the universal service will come under pressure with privatisation. The point of introducing private sector finance will be to allow those in the private sector who buy shares to make a profit. They will obviously seek to enhance that profit by driving down costs, and one of the best ways for them to do that will be through the universal service obligation.
The Government have shown that they are willing to undermine Royal Mail at every opportunity by, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) said, allowing other people to cherry-pick the best fruits—the busiest areas—and drain funds from Royal Mail, so that it will not be able to cross-subsidise as an overall national service would. [Interruption.] We cannot have faith in a system of regulation. We have seen, for example, that the power company regulators have been impotent—[Interruption.] One of the Scottish National party Members keeps chuntering away. Would the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) like to intervene, or does he just want to chunter?
Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair)
Order. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire cannot have a chat across the Chamber. If he wants to intervene he should do so, but he should not comment while a Member is on his feet speaking.
Mr Davidson
Thank you, Mr Hood. It is interesting that SNP Members choose not to intervene, but just to chunter from a sedentary position.
The Government claim that the universal service is enshrined in law, but I understand that that covers only the bare minimum, and we are of course aware that the Government cannot bind their successor. It cannot be guaranteed that future Governments will abide by pledges that are given now.
John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)
We have seen the Government’s bully boy tactics over imposing privatisation, and, once again, in the chuntering and shouting from the side, we have seen the SNP’s bullying. Is it time that we all stood up for what is right—for the workers and the people who use Royal Mail every day?
Mr Davidson
Of course we should stand together. Those of us who oppose the privatisation of Royal Mail should make our opposition clear and vote together against what is being put forward, to my astonishment, by the Liberals. We would normally expect an alliance in Scotland between the Labour party, the nationalists, the Greens and the Liberals against a Conservative Government who are proposing privatisation, but we are not in that position.
Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)
The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting case, but he must know that the SNP has stood against, and continues to stand against, the privatisation of Royal Mail, whether it comes before or after independence.
Mr Davidson
Yes, I am aware of that. That is why I am saying that I can see no reason why the hon. Gentleman’s party, the Labour party and indeed the Greens, who I understand also oppose privatisation, should not be campaigning jointly against the forces of darkness, as represented undoubtedly by the Conservatives. What surprises me is the way in which the Liberals seem to be aligning themselves with the forces of darkness on privatising the Post Office. A year ago, two years ago or three, four, five years ago, who would have expected that the Liberals would be the people proposing the privatisation of the Post Office in the House this afternoon? That is a disgrace. [Interruption.] If my chuntering friends from the SNP are willing to campaign with us, we will campaign across Scotland.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Jo Swinson
It may be helpful if I correct the record. The hon. Gentleman just mentioned the privatisation of the Post Office, but it is important to be clear that this is not about the privatisation of the Post Office. Royal Mail is up for privatisation; the Post Office is absolutely not.
Mr Davidson
I thank the Minister for that clarification. I am sorry, but like many of us, I remember the days when Royal Mail and the Post Office were part of the same organisation. I sometimes have a tendency to use the names interchangeably. I excuse her from any suggestion that she is in favour of privatising the Post Office. However, she does stand charged of wanting to privatise Royal Mail. If she wants to correct that, I would be more than happy to give way to her again. [Interruption.] All right, there is silence.
Mr Weir
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way once again. I remind him that we opposed privatisation when Labour tried to privatise Royal Mail, and we continue to oppose it now. In fact, I attended the Backbench Business Committee yesterday with his colleague, the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark), to ensure that we get a debate on privatisation as soon as we come back after the summer recess, before this pernicious Bill goes through.
Mr Davidson
I am not suggesting, nor have I suggested at any point, that the SNP supports privatisation. Despite our disagreement on those issues on which the SNP is wrong, we can work together to oppose the privatisation of the Post Office. I see no difficulty on that whatsoever. It is entirely possible to find ourselves in strong disagreement with people on some issues yet work together with them on others. I extend the clenched fist of friendship—[Laughter.] I extend the hand of friendship so that we are able to work together against the Liberal proposal to privatise the Post Office.
Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. I am sorry to break the hand of friendship that he has offered to SNP colleagues, but does he not agree that actions speak louder than words? In 2009-10, the Scottish Government awarded £220,000 of contracts to DHL, which delivered 6,162 pieces of literature. FedEx was awarded £49,514 of contracts in 2010-11, and an £8 million contract has just been awarded to TNT, instead of Royal Mail. Does that not demonstrate the Scottish Government’s commitment to Royal Mail and its workers?
Mr Davidson
Goodness me! That is a surprise. I look forward to hearing from SNP Members, who are campaigning very strongly with us to oppose the privatisation of Royal Mail, as to why the Scottish Government, which they control, have been giving such contracts to the private sector. Goodness me, there must be some mistake, surely. [Interruption.] Are we going to get a correction? No, we are not. I can remember elections in which certain people sent mail through private companies, but those were just mistakes. Such things happen.
Let us be clear that a privately owned Royal Mail will undoubtedly apply downward pressure on the universal service obligation. We have seen that happen in Holland, for example, where the privately owned universal service is now likely to be reduced from six days a week to five days a week, with services being dropped on Mondays. We must recognise the alternative that lies in the private sector by looking at what private sector operators undertake at the moment. TNT, for example, operates on a principle of zero-hours contracts, whereby people who deliver for TNT are employed for zero hours. TNT constantly invites more people to the workplace than it needs on any given day so that it can guarantee itself enough numbers. That means, of course, as we used to see in the docks when they had the casual labour scheme, people are being turned away, potentially day after day, by privatisers who are treating workers simply as commodities, leaving those workers with zero hours on many occasions, which means they are unable to feed their family during the week. We can have little faith in the system of regulation, because nobody who understands the way in which the privatised industries have been operating has any confidence in the way in which they have been controlling those companies to date.
Finally—as you have previously indicated to me, Mr Hood, when a Member of Parliament says “finally” it usually means that he or she is about 40% of the way through their speech but simply wants to give their audience hope—I will address the question of the alternative future. As I indicated earlier, William Hill has odds of 9:1 on on there not being a no vote—sorry, I mean on there being a no vote. That is a bit like the confusion of Royal Mail and the Post Office.
The alternative future of separation calls into question the future of postal services in Scotland, and I understand that the SNP—rather than the yes campaign, because it has been marginalised, as we all know—has indicated that it intends to ensure a universal service obligation. My understanding is that the SNP has also indicated that there would be one price throughout Scotland, but it has not specified whether that one price would be the same price that applies in the rest of the United Kingdom, and I think it would be helpful if the SNP did specify that at some point. As we approach the referendum, there is an obligation for the SNP to clarify how it intends to fill the gap in financing Royal Mail in Scotland after separation, because that gap is presently filled by cross-subsidy from the rest of the United Kingdom. Operating a national service clearly involves cross-subsidy for rural areas, of which Scotland has a disproportionate number.
Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab)
Is not Royal Mail an excellent example of the dividends of sharing and pooling resources to promote fairness within a strong UK?
Mr Davidson
Absolutely. Royal Mail provides a service, particularly throughout the highlands and islands and the most scattered rural communities in Scotland, in a way that the private sector does not. It is noticeable that when the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs investigated the provision of postal services to rural communities, which was quite some time ago—when the SNP was still on the Committee, before it took the huff and walked off—it was clear that the private sector was not delivering to those rural communities; it was refusing to deliver to a variety of postcodes where the costs were much higher than elsewhere. Royal Mail was the only one that would deliver to those communities at the standard and universal price, and it is the cross-subsidy system that makes that viable.
Those who would break Scotland away from the rest of the United Kingdom have an obligation, as we approach the referendum, to spell out exactly how much they anticipate would be required from Scottish taxpayers to meet the costs of the universal service obligation. They cannot say that they want European or continental standards of service while at the same time being unwilling to pay for them because they want to reduce taxation levels, particularly on business. That simply does not add up. People in Scotland deserve to know the truth.
I can remember when the arc of prosperity was being floated a while ago. That was in the days when the SNP was actually against being in NATO. But we have had two changes since then, if I remember correctly: the first was that membership would be automatic, and now Keith Brown has conceded that it would not be automatic. Things change.
None the less, the Scandinavians were held out as an example to Scotland. Are hon. Members aware that in Norway, a first-class stamp costs the equivalent of 103.9p? That is the Scandinavian model. Is that what Scotland will have after separation? I think that we deserve to be told. What will the price of first-class stamps be in a separate Scotland? Will posting mail to other parts of the United Kingdom cost the same as at the moment? It is far more expensive to post mail from Northern Ireland to the Irish Republic than to other parts of the United Kingdom. In those circumstances, the Irish Republic is a foreign country, as Scotland will be to the rest of the United Kingdom.
Mr Davidson
That is a choice that the Irish made, but the cost of sending mail from Northern Ireland to the Republic is different. There is no guarantee at the moment about what will happen. Are SNP Members saying that they will guarantee that the cost of sending mail from any part of Scotland to any part of the United Kingdom after separation will be the same as sending it within the United Kingdom? If so, that must be costed. We cannot have people simply plucking uncosted promises out of the air.
Mr Tom Clarke
My hon. Friend is making such a good speech that I hesitate to intervene. Will he address the issue of independence from the point of view of the workers from the Communication Workers Union who came to see us last week? Will he bear in mind the jobs, the pensions and the individual rights of such workers? What assurance do we have that those will not change if privatisation goes through?
Mr Davidson
I am grateful for that point, because it was my final final point. Those of us who support Royal Mail remaining within the public sector—again, I extend the fist of friendship to my colleagues in the SNP; we should be campaigning together on this issue, on which we agree—need clarification from the Liberals about what the future holds for those whose services will be privatised and those who work to deliver those services.
Many postal workers have spent a lifetime in devoted service to Royal Mail. Many have worked above and beyond the call of duty. Many postmen and women in rural areas provide an essential lifeline to local communities, doing things far beyond the normal routine that we might expect in cities. What future do they have? Will this Government guarantee that there will be no deterioration in terms and conditions? Do they expect that private employers will be allowed to drive down wages and conditions as TNT has done? Why are they prepared to accept TNT handling this country’s mail at the moment on zero-hours contracts? We need answers to all those questions.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
I am enjoying the hon. Gentleman’s speech immensely. I am having great fun, and I thank him for securing this important debate. He challenged the Scottish National party about what we would do post-2014. He has challenged the Liberals and the Government about what they would do post-2014. What would the Labour party do? The Government are going to privatise today. Would the Labour party put Royal Mail back into the public sector? We need certainty.
Mr Davidson
At the moment, there is no certainty. As with a number of things, I anticipate that the Labour party will work up a manifesto for the next election. We will try to ensure that we have identified our priorities, and we will put those clearly before the people. In the meantime, we will do everything that we can to ensure that the change does not go through.
Mr Davidson
Well, that is an interesting point. Of course we do not know at the moment where we will be in 2014. We are putting all our efforts into ensuring that privatisation does not take place, so we are focusing on that. It is a bit like the question of the bedroom tax. Nationalists are calling on Labour to clarify whether we will reject it in 2015, when at the moment, the SNP could be doing something about it in Scotland by helping local authorities but declines to do so. It could pay the costs of the bedroom tax to local authorities and social landlords now, but it refuses.
That is the difference between us. At the moment, we are relatively impotent, regrettably, because we are not in power here or in Holyrood. The power lies, in this case, with the Conservatives and their front men and women, the Liberal Democrats. Did I mention that it is surprising to me that the Liberal Democrats are fronting the privatisation of Royal Mail? What a scandal that is. People ought to be aware of it—[Interruption.] There is no point in the Minister shaking her head. She is letting her tresses flow back and forth; I wish I could do that. None the less, it is a fact that the Liberals are selling off the Post Office—[Interruption.] Royal Mail; I apologise. We are opposed to that.
Mr Hood, I know that a large number of other Members want to speak, so finally—finally, finally—I thank you for your chairmanship of the debate so far.
Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair)
I have four speakers on my list, plus the two Front-Bench Members. I ask Members on my list to be considerate of others, so that everyone has time to speak.
Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) on securing this important debate.
The twin worries for Royal Mail in Scotland are privatisation and separation; both are equally worrying for a high-quality service that we have come to love and expect. As I am sure we are all aware, a number of questions have been raised on a variety of subjects regarding Scottish independence from the United Kingdom, ranging from EU membership, NATO, currency, passports and many other universal British institutions. The list is extensive. We ask such questions to scrutinise the plans of those who would break up the UK and challenge their scaremongering. Today, we add Royal Mail to the list of questions about what will happen. Royal Mail is an institution residing firmly in that list. We should be told how well that important service would function if it were retained in an independent Scotland.
Currently, Royal Mail has 11,500 branches across the UK and employs thousands of people throughout Scotland. It is a crucial service, ensuring that UK businesses and the economy run smoothly. For example, Royal Mail estimates that it can deliver an average of 84 million items of mail every working day. There is no disguising the scale, the efficiency and, ultimately, the importance of that institution across the United Kingdom. Royal Mail serves not only big cities but the far-flung areas of our country. The price of a stamp guarantees delivery, regardless of difficulties encountered from dispatch to destination.
To give a bit of history, it all started way back in 1635 when Charles I made the postal service available to the public, with the cost of postage being paid by the recipient; I hope that that does not give the Government any idea. However, it took a further century before the uniformed postie was seen on the streets, delivering door to door—something that we have become accustomed to and expect from our postal service.
Upon the Union of the Crowns, one of the King’s first acts in London, where he had decided to move to and set up home, was to establish the royal postal service between London and Edinburgh. At last, Scotland was part of a regulated postal service and, as time passed, Scotland grew in confidence, prosperity and assurance of a reliable communications service throughout the UK. Eventually, all across Scotland, we have come to use and rely on Royal Mail.
The service has grown and changed over the centuries. Royal Mail is now an integral part of business and private life; we simply could not imagine life without it. I am of an age to remember the GPO—the General Post Office—an organisation inclusive of Royal Mail and British Telecom. British Telecom was part of the ’80s privatisation drive, which is being pioneered again, but even the late Mrs Thatcher considered Royal Mail worth keeping.
The universal nature of delivery means that small businesses can rely on Royal Mail and have confidence in the quality of service and delivery, regardless of where they reside on the UK map. We must debate what the Royal Mail would look like if Scotland separated from the rest of the United Kingdom. The questions that need to be encompassed include whether there will be continuity of employment in the mail service and whether the number of depots and jobs all remain in Scotland post-independence—or might we see job losses?
Pete Wishart
Was the hon. Gentleman not paying attention to the news this morning? The Government are going to privatise Royal Mail. What would he prefer—the Tories and the Liberals, with their privatised Royal Mail, or us, the people of Scotland, running the postal service to our requirements?
Mr McKenzie
Labour is the only party to defend the universal service obligation. The debate is about what a postal service in Scotland would look like post-2014. The two challenges to Royal Mail are not only privatisation, as I have rightly pointed out, but separation.
In my constituency, the sorting office at Knowe road employs about 150 people working full time, with some part time. Working in teams, they deliver throughout my constituency, which is diverse, with some rural and mostly urban communities. Daily, the Inverclyde office receives mail by road from Glasgow, where the large city sorting depot employs many hundreds of people more, directing the mail across the country, and that is replicated in all Scottish cities.
Individually, our engagement each day remains with the postie. Well known to the community, posties deliver to our doors in all weathers, six days a week, and that brings me to the quality of service and the delivery six days a week. Under privatisation and, as well, an independent Scotland, would we be guaranteed a six-day service? Could it be maintained? After all, we have come to expect our Saturday mail delivery; if ended, what would be the impact on business?
The price of a stamp has already been discussed by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West. What price for first and second-class stamps? Would there be a first and second-class service in a separate Scotland? Would sending a letter or document to the rest of the UK be classed as overseas mail? If so, how much would that cost? Those are all questions that we need answered. Furthermore, how would that affect Scotland’s businesses? Has all that been taken into account?
What of our postcodes in an independent Scotland? Postcodes are used to identify our homes throughout the UK quickly. Would they be retained in their present form or, as we have already heard about in Ireland upon separation in 1917, would the postcodes be changed? What would our postcodes look like?
There is a risk that a new mail service would not be anywhere near the size, scale and complexity of Royal Mail at present. Royal Mail is clearly vital for business, the economy and our everyday life. Much as we need electronic mail to speed and support business, we still require the physical mail. The rise of the e-mail and its challenge to the physical letter is now being outweighed by the rise of online shopping and the resultant increase in parcel delivery. Will Scottish online shoppers be penalised? Independence will mean being outside the UK, so will the cost to deliver increase?
Surely, before the Scottish people vote on the most important constitutional decision in their history, such questions need to be answered, and as soon as possible. Who knows, but, bizarrely, the ever-increasing popularity of the postal vote could contribute to keeping the UK together and Royal Mail in Scotland?
This morning, we have highlighted yet another concern for Scottish people—the impending referendum in 2014 and the future of Royal Mail beyond 2014. From applying a stamp to a letter to recognising the postie coming down our street in distinctive uniforms and vans, we have become accustomed to and reliant on the Royal Mail service as part and parcel of being in the UK. After all, one of the first acts of the Scottish King on coming to London to unite the Crowns was that he sent the royal mail north. Like many Scots, he recognised a good thing when he saw one; we still recognise Royal Mail as a good thing, and we want to keep it.
Disruption to Royal Mail services across the UK will impact not only on the Scots, but on the rest of the UK. We must hear how the SNP intends to sign, seal and deliver a mail service in an independent Scotland.
Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair)
So that I can get in all the speakers on my list, I am imposing an 11-minute limit on the next contributions.
Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)
I am pleased to appear under your chairmanship this morning, Mr Hood. I congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) on securing the debate. He made a speech that, by his standards, was encompassing; I could agree with most of what he said until, tragically, he veered off towards the end.
According to Project Fear in Scotland, we might imagine that from the day after independence, Postman Pat will be leading a convoy of little red vans, making a break for the border. That is utterly ludicrous. The assets of the mail service—the pillar boxes, the sorting offices and equipment, the vehicles and, above all, the hard-working and magnificent staff of Royal Mail—will still be in place and will continue, whatever the ownership structure.
The first point to make is that none of us can know for certain what Royal Mail will look like either in 2014 or on independence day in 2016. It is being privatised by the Government; the Scottish National party will fight privatisation, as we have always fought it, even when the Labour party proposed it. If we are unsuccessful, however, we will have to deal with the position that we find on independence. The only protection that the consumer will have, if the privatisation goes ahead, is from the regulator, Ofcom, which should not give any of us comfort.
The hon. Member for Glasgow South West discussed the universal service obligation, and I share his concern. Under the Postal Services Act 2011, Royal Mail is obliged to continue a universal service and is the only one to fund it. The Communication Workers Union has already expressed concerns that Ofcom is allowing trials of end-to-end deliveries from other operators, which will inevitably lead to the cherry-picking of profitable routes in urban areas and the inevitable pressures that that will put on rural and less affluent areas. That is a problem not only for Scotland, but for all areas of the United Kingdom.
What protection does the consumer have for the universal service obligation? Last year, Ofcom decided that price caps should be removed from all Royal Mail products apart from second-class mail. As a result, the only truly universal service is second-class mail. First-class mail could be priced out of the reach of many people, and already our stamp price is one of the highest in Europe. Just how many people and, crucially, small businesses will send mail first class?
None of that is the result of Scottish independence—that is happening now, under the United Kingdom Government and as part of the United Kingdom postal service, even before it is flogged off to a private operator. The Scottish Government have given a clear commitment that, with independence, Scotland will at the very least match the current terms of the universal service obligation.
Anas Sarwar
Will the hon. Gentleman guarantee that the Scottish Government’s White Paper will set out in detail how postal services would operate in an independent Scotland? Will a full costing be attached?
Mr Weir
The Scottish Government will set out their plans. The hon. Gentleman asks us to do that, even though his party is trying to form a Government in 2015 and yet will not tell us what Labour will do with the postal service, because the manifesto is still being written.
We are told that the highlands and islands could get higher charges. Have Members who say that read the Postal Services Act 2011, because that is already possible under the present system? Indeed, Royal Mail has already tried to introduce zonal pricing in some areas. Nothing prevents Royal Mail or its new private owners from introducing zonal pricing in any service, other than the universal service, which, as I have already explained, could be nothing more than the second-class service.
I took the matter up with Ofcom, which wrote to confirm to me:
“Ofcom does not have any powers to restrict Royal Mail from introducing this pricing variation related to user location, as the Postal Services Act 2011 limits our regulatory powers to universal services and access”.
That comes from the horse’s mouth. Members might think that I am the only one to think this, but the Communication Workers Union made exactly the same point.
Section 43 of the 2011 Act allows Ofcom to review the USO and to recommend, among other things, a review of the minimum requirements. It could reduce what is covered by the USO. That is not the future that we want in Scotland. Royal Mail should be a public service, and if it has not been fully privatised before independence, we will stop the process in Scotland. We have never accepted the mantra of successive Labour and Tory Governments that Royal Mail must be looked at as merely another business. It is an integral part of the country’s infrastructure and will be treated as such in an independent Scotland. Indeed, the postal operator must be recognised as an economic driver, especially in rural areas, and not as a drain on the economy in competition for the resources needed for schools and hospitals, which is how it is so often portrayed by the present UK Government.
An old claim is that somehow postal charges between Scotland and England will increase, but Members should be aware that postal charges are co-ordinated through the Universal Postal Union. Letters and packages that start with one designated postal operator can be passed to other postal operators in other countries, and they take responsibility for forwarding them. Under the universal postal convention, there is an obligation on each country to ensure that such items are quickly delivered on the same terms and conditions as its internal mail.
There is absolutely no reason why costs should increase in Scotland. The Scottish postal service will decide the cost of postage in Scotland and to other destinations. In Ireland, the Republic has an all-Ireland price, and there is no reason why something similar cannot operate in Scotland. It would become a member of the UPU, as have other countries that have gained independence.
Lindsay Roy
Will the hon. Member explain why the Scottish Government make extensive use of TNT’s services?
Mr Weir
The previous Labour Government used TNT extensively because procurement rules force many Governments and public organisations to use such services. I have already said that Labour tried to privatise the industry, but Labour Members seem to forget that. The previous Labour Government tried to privatise postal services; we opposed that; and we continue to oppose it. We will ensure that the Scottish postal service meets the needs of Scotland and the Scottish people.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
I do not normally intervene from the Front Bench, but for clarity I want to put on the record the fact that the previous Labour Government would have kept the postal service in public hands. The public sector would have owned 60%, so it is incorrect to say that the previous Labour Government wanted to privatise Royal Mail.
Mr Weir
I am sorry that the shadow Minister does not remember his own policy. Lord Mandelson proposed privatisation of 49%, not 40%. The hon. Gentleman may believe that the situation would have stopped there, but the clear intention was to privatise. What will happen if privatisation goes ahead? In the Netherlands, where the universal service provider—[Interruption.]
Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair)
Order. The hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) and the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) should remain in order while the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) is on his feet.
Mr Weir
Thank you, Mr Hood.
I understand that, under the Government’s proposals, there will be an initial public offering on the stock market, but there is absolutely nothing to stop Royal Mail falling into the hands of an alternative provider such as Deutsche Post or TNT, and the history of privatisation suggests that that is likely. When the energy companies, BT and British Gas were privatised, most of the shares in the first instance went to small investors, but now the companies are owned by large institutions. It is very likely that that will happen to Royal Mail.
It is also likely that in due course a provider such as Deutsche Post or TNT will become the owner of Royal Mail. That is not to be welcomed, given the attitude of some of those companies to the universal service. The Communication Workers Union made the point that in the Netherlands, where TNT, the universal service provider, is privately owned, within a year of the mail market being fully opened to competition in April 2009, the managing director of TNT’s European mail network declared that the USO was
“a kind of Jurassic Park and we should be rid of it”.
The company plans cut down its deliveries.
Mr Davidson
Will the hon. Gentleman clarify whether a separate Scotland would intend to renationalise Royal Mail if it had by then been privatised?
Mr Weir
That is a bit rich when Labour will not tell us what it will do in 2015, but I will be clear. It is my view that we should do so, and that is one of the options that we will be looking at. We believe that it must be in the interests of the Scottish people and all areas of Scotland, and that that can be achieved only by public service. We have experience in Scotland of courier deliveries and what happens when the service is private. That is my view and that is what I shall be pressing for.
Country-to-country transfers are well understood, and Royal Mail receives 266 million letter post items and 1.7 million parcels from international origins. The system works perfectly well. In 2004, member nations of the UPU adopted a system aimed at covering their actual mail processing costs. There is absolutely no way in which a mail operator in the remaining parts of the UK could impose excessive charges on a mail operator in Scotland for mail delivered to or from Scotland or in transit to another destination, because the costs would be identical to those within its territory. Before anyone gets excited, all recently independent states had access to the UPU almost immediately on gaining independence.
The hon. Member for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie) talked about the workers. In fact, Royal Mail employment in Scotland is below the UK average and there is scope for making a better service and creating more employment. There are also prospects for helping the Post Office, which is not being privatised but is important to rural areas. We will build a delivery service for social security and many of the things that have been taken away from post offices. We will be looking to help post offices. Although it is a reserved matter, the Scottish Government have a good track record of helping post offices with a diversification programme, rates relief and business bonuses.
My time is running out, so I will end by saying that it is true that there are real dangers for postal services in Scotland post-2014. That danger does not come from Scottish independence; it comes from remaining in the United Kingdom and seeing a postal service privatised by the present Government. I predict that in the unlikely event that the Labour party forms a Government at Westminster in 2015, it will do what it always does and decide that it cannot reverse the privatisation. Labour will just go along with what the Tories have done. There will be a privatised postal service in the UK if the Government’s proposals continue. In Scotland, there will be a postal service that works for the people of Scotland and the communities of Scotland. We will build that as part of independence.
Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)
It is a pleasure, Mr Hood, to see you back in your place this morning. It is good to see you back among us. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) on securing this debate. As chair of the all-party group on post offices, I want to concentrate more on our post office network in Scotland, and what is going on out there.
I know that today is a big day for Royal Mail, with the statement that we will hear in the House later. However, to people right across the UK, and particularly in Scotland, the post office network is a vital part of day-to-day life, keeping in mind also that the Post Office depends heavily on generating a significant percentage of its work through Royal Mail. The Government, with a fanfare, introduced a subsidy to the network and embarked on what they have claimed is a programme of no closures, but the picture out there is somewhat different in many of our communities. I will quickly go through some figures, and towards the end, I will raise one or two issues with the Minister.
We have just over 1,400 post offices in Scotland, which has 12% of the UK’s 11,800 post offices. Some 67.6% of post offices in Scotland are rural, whereas in the UK, 54.6% are rural. Some 32.5% of urban post offices are urban deprived, compared with just under 25% in the UK, and 28% of Scottish post offices are the only retail outlet in the area. Work done by what used to be Consumer Focus—now Consumer Futures—shows that 49% of the population in Scotland visit a post office once a week, while 58% of residents in accessible rural areas do so. Scottish post offices are visited once a week by some 60% of residents in remote rural areas, 63% of people aged 65 and over, and 63% of disabled people.
The Government produced plans for safeguarding the post office network, as I said. The social and economic changes, along with a withdrawal of Government services and growing competition from alternative service providers, have put serious financial pressures on the post office network in recent years. Between 2001 and 2012—I appreciate that the bulk of that time was under a Labour Government—26% of Scottish post offices closed. The figure UK-wide was 34%. Concerns about the future viability of the post office network led to Government proposals for the modernisation of the network. Published in November 2010, those plans were designed to make the network more financially secure and to prevent further closures. We need to keep in mind that all those businesses are small businesses, and people endeavour, as best they can, to produce a livelihood from the work that they are doing.
Let me deal with sub-postmasters’ income. The net Post Office pay is used to pay for the running of the post office, including the sub-postmaster’s own drawings, staff salaries, rent or mortgage, and any other overheads. In Scotland, the average net Post Office pay was just under £2,000 a month last year, which was down from £2,377 in 2009. That is a drop of some 19%.
The post office has traditionally been the key local outlet where the public can interact with government. I know that there has been a great fanfare of more government work—that is, local government, as well as central Government—but the income from providing government services across the UK fell from £576 million in 2005 to a mere £167 million in 2010. The Scottish figures reflect that massive reduction. The Government have, I would say—I am sure that the Minister will say differently—failed to deliver on their pledge. The few new services that have been introduced are one-off transactions available only in a small number of post offices. No new major government services have been awarded to post offices since May 2010.
I will provide some additional figures, for which I want to thank the National Federation of SubPostmasters. Research has shown that the overwhelming majority of Scottish sub-postmasters are making no income at all from certain services: 92% earn nothing from ID-checking services; 71% earn nothing from the passport check-and-send service; 59% earn nothing from Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency transactions; and 92% earn nothing from payment services. Other services, such as the benefit cheques, or “green giros”, and national savings and investment products have recently been withdrawn from post offices.
Each and every one of us in this Chamber was delighted when, in November last year, the DVLA contract was awarded, or re-awarded to the Post Office, but the picture out there is somewhat different. Sub-postmasters are seriously worried that there is a precedent of falling rates of pay for transactions directly linked to all of that, and income is undoubtedly dropping even after having been re-awarded that contract. What lies ahead, later this year, are benefits and universal credit. The system that will be introduced contains no mechanism to allow some of the poorest and most vulnerable in our society to access their money—their benefits. We all realise that we have a job of work to do, as elected representatives, to protect some of the neediest and most vulnerable people in our communities and in society in general. If that money is finding its way into a Post Office account, will there be some way to ensure that peoples’ rent, utility bills and council tax is actually paid? Nothing is in place at the moment, and we are about to embark on that system.
I will tie up my comments quickly, but I want to come back to the point that I raised with the Minister yesterday, because I am deeply concerned that we do not appear to have the full facts and figures on what is happening out there with post offices. I will repeat what I said—I know that she has promised to come back to me in writing, but she has not done so yet, unless she has done some writing overnight. Will she share with us the number of sub-post offices that are temporarily closed or have had to move to an alternative, temporary service delivery system? Communities are desperately seeking answers.
Finally, I want to say that we did have another fanfare in the past two or three years, about the delivery of credit union services through post offices. That has disappeared; no one seems to know where it is. If there is about to be an announcement on the matter, it has been a long time in the making. I recognise full well that, under the previous Government, there were two closure programmes. I say to the Minister that I supported those programmes, because they were about service delivery across communities, with people having access. What we are seeing at the moment are temporary closures, with the Post Office desperately looking to find someone else to take on a post office that is sitting vacant. However, it needs to be understood that the income of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses has been so badly hit over the past two or three years that there is little wonder that no one wants to take up that offer of opening a business under the terms of a post office. We may not have seen a programme of closures under the current regime, but I worry that if we have another Conservative or Conservative coalition Government in 2015—heaven forbid—we would undoubtedly see a programme of closures like we have never seen before.
John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Hood, and I congratulate my neighbour across the Clyde, my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) on securing the debate.
I know what privatisation is all about. I was a member of the General Post Office. That became the Post Office, which was then split up into the Post Office and British Telecom, which I became an engineer in. Of course, the Post Office has now been split up into Royal Mail and the Post Office.
More than 250,000 people were working for BT when it was privatised in the 1980s. I am not sure of the exact figure these days, but it is around the 90,000 mark. That gives some idea of what has happened to a privatised industry over the years. Some of those job losses would have occurred anyway because of new technology, but the same cannot be said for the Post Office, and Royal Mail and post offices have, sadly, seen staff numbers go down. Many hon. Members, particularly from the separatist party, have mentioned the CWU. I was a member of the CWU. I had the honour of being a member of that union back in the days when it was the POEU, the Post Office Engineering Union, and then the NCU, the National Communications Union, and a very good union it was too. Then I became a member of Connect, which was for the management side of British Telecom, and from there I became a Member of Parliament.
What could happen to the Post Office in the years ahead I do not want to think about. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West is right to say that the Liberal Democrats have taken on the role of head executioner and are being used yet again for legislation that is not what the country would vote for if it was given a vote on this issue. The Minister is another of my constituency neighbours; her constituency is to the north of mine. I look forward to it coming back to Labour at the next election and having a Labour neighbour next time round. Her party is doing its best to ensure that she is not re-elected.
We have seen already the cherry-picking that goes on in the post office industry. That worries me a great deal. As the Post Office is sold off, we have seen what services the Scottish Government are using. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) mentioned this. DHL delivered 6,162 items, costing £220,047, in 2009-10 alone. FedEx—it is important that we mention all these things—delivered 1,566 items, costing £49,514. An £8 million contract was given to TNT in 2009. The Scottish Government can say that they were adhering to the rules. I do not know that that is true. I am not saying that it is not true, but I do know that they cannot spout about how much they are doing to protect post offices and post office workers and at the same time undermine their jobs.
How does that compare with the present UK Government? They want to get rid of the Post Office. Hon. Members have said that the previous Government wanted to get rid of it too, but I say to them that it was Labour Back-Bench Members who stopped that privatisation or partial privatisation. It was not Liberals. It was not the SNP. It was not Conservatives. It was Back-Bench Labour MPs such as my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West, who secured this debate, who spoke the loudest to try to stop that privatisation, and they did.
Jo Swinson
I just want to bring this clarity to the debate. Yet again, the hon. Gentleman has been talking about privatisation of the Post Office; I think that he means privatisation of Royal Mail.
John Robertson
No, I was talking about privatisation of the Post Office. Let us remember that the Post Office was split into Royal Mail and the Post Office. The next step of privatisation will involve the Post Office. The hon. Lady may be confused. Then again, I could be confused—that is always possible—but I do have some questions to ask her and I would like to know whether she has asked questions of the Scottish Government about exactly where we are in relation to privatisation of the Post Office. What will happen in Scotland in the event of privatisation? What about what is happening in 2014? Have the Government taken that into consideration, albeit that the bookies are giving odds of 1:9 on separation? We hope that we will not have that, but what are the implications for the free movement of post across the border?
Has the Minister asked the Scottish Government what they would do in relation to the free movement of post that has originated from south of the border or, for that matter, from Northern Ireland? What would the impact be on Scottish businesses in those circumstances? What planning have the Scottish Government done in relation to separating Royal Mail and the post offices in the event of a 2014 win on their part?
What would the impact be on jobs? We have heard that there are 12,500 jobs in the post office industry north of the border. We heard comments on this issue from the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir), whom I have a lot of time for. We have been on Select Committees together, and I respect him in a lot of ways. We do not always agree with each other—that is for sure—but he is usually worth listening to, although perhaps not so much today. I am trying to find out different bits and pieces of information and I have further questions for the Minister, but I do want to congratulate the hon. Member for Angus, because it would be churlish not to, on the early-day motion that he tabled, with the support of the CWU. It got cross-party support from 71 MPs. Funnily enough, there were no Tories, but he did get some Liberals, yet it is the same Liberal party that is helping to front up this future privatisation.
Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)
I do not wish to duck responsibility, but the Liberal Democrats in fact had argued even in the last Parliament that if Royal Mail was to succeed and compete, it would have to attract private investment and private capital and the best way to enable it to do that would be to privatise it, so it is not as if we are going along with a Conservative proposition; it is our policy that is being implemented by Liberal Democrat Ministers.
John Robertson
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that intervention. When I am putting out my election leaflet in a few years’ time, that will certainly be in it. I know that the hon. Member for Angus and his colleague, the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), will be doing the same, as will many other Opposition Members, so I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that clarification. It is important that we understand exactly what the position is, and I am sure that the Minister will back him up when she makes her contribution in a few minutes’ time.
Mr Davidson
Can I tell my hon. Friend that I saw a Liberal in my constituency once? We do not need to bother putting out leaflets against them there, but that was an incredible announcement from the right hon. Member for Gordon (Sir Malcolm Bruce). We are now being told that the Liberals are not simply dupes of the Conservatives in this matter; they are actually the drivers of the privatisation of Royal Mail. It is incredibly helpful to have that on the record. I am sure that they will pay a very heavy price for it at the next election.
John Robertson
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. He is probably right, but democracy is not always fair. It does not always work out the way we want it to. That said, it is our duty to ensure that the electorate are given all the information possible, and certainly Opposition Members will hold to account not only the Government, but the Liberals. In the last two general elections, the Liberals were second in my constituency, albeit more than 10,000 votes behind me. That said, they were still second. I would wager that they will not be second next time—we might have to give odds of 1:9 on that as well.
I say to the Minister that the rules were for guidance. I think that that will be appreciated. They were never supposed to be written on tablets of stone. They were there to guide, not to tell people what to do. Perhaps, when we are looking at the rules and things that have happened in the past and looking to the future, we can look to guidance, rather than strict rules, because one of the hardest things for any management or even any union is to be given rules that they think have to be abided by 100%, yet are used for guidance. In relation to some of the guidance, I would be inclined to ask what can be done for rural areas, the highlands and islands—generally, areas outside the city centres. I am very lucky; I live in an inner-city constituency, but I know that if Scotland were to become independent and the costs for postal services in Scotland were all to be grouped together, the people of Glasgow North West would pay an inordinate amount more than people in rural areas for service, because it will be cheaper to send stuff in my area and they will have to subsidise people outside my area. Will that be the case? Should it be the case? If not, what guidelines will the Government produce?
I will not go on, Mr Hood. I was going to mention other bits and pieces, but my colleagues have said almost everything. The only thing I want to say is that the Post Office means a hell of a lot to me. I was a GPO member and a Post Office member many years ago. I was on strike against privatisation for three weeks. I helped with picketing and making signs for picketing. It was never easy. Union members do not go on strike because they like strikes; they go on strike because they feel that they are being hard done by and they have a cause. If privatisation comes forward and all the people who want to invest in the Post Office look at what happened in the past, they will see that this is a different kind of privatisation, which may or may not make them money. If we are making money now in the Post Office, why would we get rid of it and put everything in jeopardy? Union members will feel hard done by and may take industrial action. I know that I will stand with them if they do, because they will be fighting for jobs.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
It is a great pleasure to serve again under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) on producing in his wonderful fashion 25 minutes of wonderful speech defending not only Royal Mail and the Post Office, but the Post Office and Royal Mail as well. Time is short, so I will not run through the issues with the privatisation that is happening now at UK Parliament level; there will be a statement in the House at 12.30 pm, where the Government will lay out their plans for privatisation. It is important to be crystal clear about the Opposition’s position: we are 110% against the privatisation of Royal Mail. There was a debate in the House last week, so I will not run through the reasons for that position.
I am absolutely delighted that Liberal Democrats have said on the record this morning in this Chamber that privatising Royal Mail is Liberal Democrat policy, not only Conservative party policy. The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon) wrote a letter in 2009 to the Communication Workers Union, saying that he was against privatisation, so perhaps only Liberal Democrats are for it and the Conservative party is against it.
Now that the Edinburgh agreement has been signed and the referendum will happen in September 2014, Scottish people, Scottish politicians and civic Scotland—if I may use that unwieldy phrase—are asking serious questions about what services will look like post-independence if they vote yes. We always say that Scotland can of course be an independent country, but what kind of country will it be? I am waiting for the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) to jump up or tweet to say that all we are doing is scaremongering, but we are asking the legitimate questions that the people of Scotland want answered. If he does not want to take my word for that, an article a few weeks ago by Lesley Riddoch, who is certainly a vocal supporter of the yes campaign, says that
“Scots will be jumpy about the possibility of losing access to the Post Office and Royal Mail. A generation of Scots grew up with Postman Pat and helped reverse the Post Office’s ill-fated transformation into Consignia.”
No one knows what postal service will look like in an independent Scotland. Even Lesley Riddoch is asking questions that the SNP and the Scottish Government have not been able to answer.
The postal network in Scotland is critical to not only the economy and business, but the people who live there. Whether a letter is posted from Orkney to Oxford or from Peterborough to Edinburgh—I should have said Perth to keep the peace going and please the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire—there is one cost and the exactly the same very high service standards. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West has already mentioned the one-price, equal service and that service standards for private companies are not as high, which has given Royal Mail an unlevel playing field to compete on against private companies. Statistics from the Federation of Small Businesses show that Scottish businesses rely on Royal Mail more than businesses in the rest of the UK—56% to 42%. That highlights a fact that we will talk about when we go on to other issues: Scotland relies on the Post Office and Royal Mail far more than other parts of the UK. There are proportionately more post offices in Scotland.
The statistics in the wonderful briefing from the National Federation of SubPostmasters speak for themselves. There are 1,415 post offices on Scotland, of which 67.5% are rural, as opposed to just under 55% in the rest of the UK. Scotland has 12% of UK post offices with 8.3% of the population, so we have proportionately more in Scotland. Those statistics alone tell us that the post office network, as opposed to Royal Mail, in Scotland is significantly more expensive to operate, because there are more post offices and more rural post offices. We know about the social side of post offices in rural areas.
We need to know what the SNP and the Scottish Government plan to do with postal services in Scotland. They have said that they will abide by EU directives. There are questions for a university thesis about whether we will be in the EU, but for the sake of argument, I shall use the hypothetical scenario that Scotland will be, so the EU directive covering the universal service obligation baseline will kick in. The UK has gold-plating on top of that baseline—the only EU directive that the UK Government support gold-plating—which says six days a week, one price, anywhere.
If the Scottish Government maintain the six-days-a-week universal service obligation, as they confirmed last week under questioning from the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills, the next question to ask, after congratulating them on making one commitment, is, how will they pay for it? How much will that mean in subsidies for the post office network? How much will it mean in subsidies for the Royal Mail network? How much will a stamp cost in Scotland for internal and external mail? How much will it cost to post a letter from Newcastle to Edinburgh?
The hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) says that Ireland is covered by the same price, but that is Ireland’s choice; England’s choice could be that they will use cross-border postal services at international or European rates. It is England’s decision, not the decision of Scotland or the Scottish people.
We have looked at post office statistics. We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) about the extreme pressures at the moment on sub-postmasters and their incomes, which continue to drop. If Royal Mail is privatised, which will be announced this afternoon, there are grave dangers that the inter-business agreement will be either salami-sliced between now and its renewal in 2022 or disappear altogether. What do the Scottish Government guarantee will be the relationship between the Post Office and Royal Mail at separation? How much will it cost at separation and how much will the inter-business agreement provide to the post office network to maintain the incomes that my hon. Friend mentioned?
Mr Weir
The hon. Gentleman asks lots of questions—obviously, the Scottish Government will have figures to answer many of them—but can he answer the same questions on what the position will be in the UK? There is uncertainty in privatisation and in the interaction between a privatised Royal Mail and the post office network and Post Office Ltd, if privatisation goes ahead.
Ian Murray
Surely, that is a question for the Minister to answer. The Opposition are saying clearly that privatisation of postal services in the UK is wrong; we should not privatise Royal Mail, because of the threats to the inter-business agreement, the universal service obligation and the regulatory framework. The regulatory framework provides us with another example of issues that will have to be resolved. What will it look like? Who will regulate postal services in Scotland? What are the parameters under which the services will operate?
We are running out of time and I want the Minister to be able to answer the questions. The Opposition are constantly accused of scaremongering when we pose legitimate questions as simple as, how much will it cost to post a Christmas card from Edinburgh to Glasgow first class? I want to send one to my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West. He is on my Christmas card list. I probably will send him one. How much will it cost? That is not scaremongering. It is a simple and straightforward question.
As we sit in this Chamber today, it is clear that the Scottish Labour party is the only party standing up for the universal service obligation in Scotland. The Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats want to privatise it, and the SNP has absolutely no answers to the basic questions about how it will be maintained. The message must go out loud and clear that, until the SNP can answer those basic questions, it cannot tell us how to maintain the universal service obligation and postal services in Scotland.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. How apt it is to have a Scot in the Chair for a debate on the important matter of postal services in Scotland post-2014. I thank the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) for securing the debate, and for his wide-ranging introductory speech. We have covered a good amount of ground today; indeed, I wondered at times whether we were in a rerun of a debate from two weeks ago on the privatisation of Royal Mail. I know that the hon. Gentleman was unfortunately not able to attend that debate, but I hope he is able to be in the Chamber later today for the Secretary of State’s statement on this issue. The hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) mentioned that there may well be further opportunities for discussion in Backbench Business Committee debates, if the Committee so agrees, so I am sure that we will return to the issue time and again over the next few months, and beyond.
In 2014 we face an historic choice in Scotland—arguably the most important vote that Scots will have cast in decades. I hope that there will be a high turnout in the independence referendum, and I very much believe that the Scottish people will decide to reject the notion of independence because we are better off as part of the United Kingdom. It is important that over the next 14 months or so we continue to have a full and healthy debate about all aspects of what such a change would mean for everyday life in Scotland. The Government are, of course, making the case that Scotland should remain in the United Kingdom, and as part of that we are carrying out a programme of analysis across a number of Departments about Scotland’s place in the UK and how it contributes to, and benefits from being part of, the UK.
I am sure that right hon. and hon. Members are aware of the paper that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills produced on 14 June, which demonstrated that Scotland and the rest of the UK benefit from the domestic market and the shared business framework that underpins it. The paper had a section on postal services as part of a more general consideration of infrastructure in Scotland. We take the view that we are better and stronger together as part of the United Kingdom. We are not making contingency plans for the Scottish people deciding to leave the United Kingdom because we do not believe that that will be the outcome, but it is absolutely for the Scottish Government to set out what would happen in that scenario, given that it is they who are advocating the change, and that is a challenge for the SNP.
We have had a fair challenge from the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) about the price of a stamp for a Christmas card because, although we have e-mail these days, there is something lovely about sending and receiving Christmas cards and people want to know how much it will cost. There are question marks over what the cost would be in an independent Scotland.
Mr Weir
The Minister says that the Scottish Government or the SNP have to make clear the cost of sending a Christmas card post-independence. However, under her privatisation proposals we do not know what the cost will be in 2016 for sending a Christmas card in the UK whether or not there is independence for Scotland, because there is no longer a price cap on anything other than second-class mail.
Jo Swinson
I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s intervention because it gives me the opportunity to confirm and clarify the situation. I appreciate that there are strong views on different sides about the privatisation of Royal Mail, but many wild stories have been going about. It is absolutely clear that the universal service obligation remains. The obligation is enshrined in the Postal Services Act 2011, which was passed by this Parliament. The Act sets out that there has to be a six-days-a-week service to every location at an affordable and uniform price. That provision is monitored by the regulator Ofcom, and will remain in place after privatisation. The exact same set of protections that is in place at the moment will, therefore, remain.
What is unclear, however, is what would happen in an independent Scotland. We do not know whether Scotland would be a member of the EU and therefore whether the EU postal services directive would apply. If we assumed that it did, there would have to be at least a five-days-a-week universal service—Ireland has such a service. Only five EU countries, including the UK, go beyond that and have a six-days-a-week service. We do not know whether it would be a five-day or a six-day service in an independent Scotland. The SNP says that it will give guarantees—I noted that from the speech made by the hon. Member for Angus—but it does not back up how it would do it.
This comes down to the basic economics point to which various hon. Members have referred, and which applies to both the Post Office and Royal Mail. What we have in Scotland is a different sort of demography and geography to that of the rest of the UK, which is something that the hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson) mentioned. His area is very urban, and the costs of the logistics of getting about to deliver letters are, therefore, lower than they would be in a very rural constituency. If one country has a higher proportion of rural areas and addresses than another—Scotland compared with the UK for example—the service becomes more expensive to operate, and that cost must be accounted for. An hon. Gentleman chuntered from a sedentary position, “Do you think that Scotland could not run a postal service?” Of course it could, but we need to know what the costs will be. To suggest that they would be the same as for running the service across the UK, where there is cross-subsidisation between more densely populated areas and rural areas to offset the higher costs in the latter, is to misunderstand the basic economics.
Anas Sarwar
I apologise to you, Mr Chairman, for chuntering from a sedentary position and getting told off by you, and at the same time I congratulate you on the fantastic jumper you are wearing on this summer’s day.
I have a great suggestion for ending the uncertainty, and the bickering between the Lib Dems and the SNP, and that is to vote no in the referendum next year and return a Labour Government in 2015.
Jo Swinson
I wonder which half. For clarity, I mean on the voting no to independence in 2014.
We have had queries about the price of a stamp and about the universal service operating for six days a week rather than for the number of days required by the EU. Those questions are for the Scottish Government. Indeed, the hon. Member for Glasgow North West outlined a whole host of questions that the Scottish Government need to answer.
I want to turn now to the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown). I welcomed his contribution about post offices, a topic that was missing from this debate on postal services in Scotland. As I have tried to make clear, the subject under debate is a very separate issue to that of the Royal Mail. We have had a fair amount of confusion. Royal Mail and the Post Office are now separate entities. The latter is a separate company with its own board, which will be helpful to its ultimate success. We do not want to get confused, particularly when we are talking about privatisation.
The hon. Member for Glasgow South West said that he was astonished that Liberal Democrats were proposing the privatisation of Royal Mail. I accept that our 2010 manifesto was probably not high on his reading list, but it is bizarre to be accused of something being a huge surprise when it was clearly set out in our manifesto at the last election. We want Royal Mail to be able to access private capital so that it can provide a good service to customers because, ultimately, that is what is important, and when Royal Mail has to compete with schools and hospitals for capital it is not able to do that.
The situation for the Post Office is incredibly different. We are aiming for mutualisation, and the process is under way with a stakeholder forum that includes the National Federation of SubPostmasters, the Communication Workers Union, Government and others. It is important that we work towards a sustainable future for the Post Office.
Time is against me today. I conclude by saying that the post office network plays an important role in Scotland. The hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway outlined some statistics and, as I promised yesterday, I will write to him on the issue he raised. The fact that Scotland has 12% of all post office branches and 15% of all rural branches shows that we have higher than our population share’s worth of post office services. Under an independent Scotland the service would, therefore, cost more, and the Scottish Government need to give answers to the Scottish people.
Police Treatment of Alleged Perpetrators and Victims
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. I am delighted to have secured this opportunity to explore the relative rights, in effect, of alleged perpetrators and perpetrators of crime, in contrast to the rights and treatment of victims and victims’ families. I particularly want to draw attention to a case that I have been pursuing for some time as a Member of Parliament. Not only am I raising this matter because it raises specific points relating to a specific case, but because of wider concerns and the ramifications and consequences for the treatment of other cases and for the rights and treatment of victims in those cases.
Developing this case has been a challenge, because I have, of course, taken my points to the Ministry of Justice, as I should, because parts of the case, and cases relating to how victims are treated in the criminal justice process, are within the curtilage and responsibility of that Department, and to the Home Office, because they also fall within its curtilage and responsibility. Over the years, I have, on behalf my constituents who have raised these questions—I will refer to them in a moment—had to pursue these matters through two Departments. I am delighted that the Policing Minister is here.
The questions are primarily concentrated on competence and on the discretion of the police in their response to capital offences, such as the ones that I will mention. Where are the rights of victims and families, where they potentially conflict with those of killers and alleged killers, or where a killer has already admitted guilt and admitted that they killed a person before their conviction? We are looking at the period in which decisions are taken that have consequences for the victims and the victims’ estate and record, before conviction.
Of course, we assume that killers’ rights are effectively surrendered, or at least subordinate to those of the victims. We believe, and the public would normally expect, that concern for, and consequences for, victims would be uppermost in our minds, and that we would go out of our way to support and protect the interests of victims.
I have two primary purposes in raising this case today. First, I seek to ensure that the rights of victims are not subordinated by the rights of perpetrators, particularly in cases where alleged perpetrators admit guilt or responsibility before conviction. This is especially the case in circumstances that involve the killing or murder of a family member. If a killer is next of kin, in my view they surrender their rights to have a superior claim over the victim’s other immediate blood relatives. Secondly, I wish to ensure that lessons arising from incompetence or failure—in respect of both the handling of the investigation and the lack of support for the victim’s family in the case of Claire Oldfield-Hampson, under Operation Ramsgate—have been learned, apologies given and systems improved.
I will refer specifically to the case of the killing of Claire Oldfield-Hampson, which I have mentioned in two previous parliamentary debates. First, I need to place this matter in context. The context, most recently, is the Home Secretary’s correct response to recent allegations about the investigation into the Stephen Lawrence case. That response is most welcome and I think that those who are concerned about the treatment of victims and their families will gain a great deal of succour and encouragement from it. After all, Stephen Lawrence was just 18 when he was murdered on 22 April 1993. We are talking about a case that goes back more than 20 years. It is right that, when further evidence has emerged and further allegations have been made, the Home Secretary has raised the prospect of ensuring that those matters are subject to further investigation and review. The killing of Claire Oldfield-Hampson took place in September 1996, but if some matters are still not resolved, I encourage my hon. Friend the Minister to look carefully at that case and, if necessary, instigate further reviews.
Just last month, the Home Secretary announced that the latest allegations of misconduct in the Stephen Lawrence investigation will be investigated by the chief constable of Derbyshire, Mick Creedon, as part of Operation Herne. She also announced the circulation of a new code of integrity for the police. My constituents and I are pleased for and supportive of the Lawrence family and hope that the principle of re-opening cases is not constrained by them achieving a certain level of televisual or media interest.
I repeat myself to an extent today and for that I offer no apology. I still need, and my constituents need, evidence that lessons are being learned and that improvements are being made, following clear failings on the part of the Cambridgeshire constabulary, which was responsible for investigating the killing of Claire Oldfield-Hampson. Even now, some issues of responsibility for her estate remain to be resolved. I believe that the law needs to be reviewed, to rebalance the respective rights of victims and alleged perpetrators, as does how the Home Office and, more specifically, the police conduct themselves in handling cases such as these.
We assume that killers surrender their rights and are given lesser rights than their victims. A victim and their grieving family should be given greater consideration and protection than a killer. That is what most people would assume. They would assume not that killers lose all their rights—they certainly have a right to a fair trial—but that consideration for victims would be superior to consideration for the killer’s sensitivities, particularly if the killer has already admitted that they perpetrated a crime. However, when a husband kills his wife, he continues to enjoy next of kin rights, and vice versa.
Should a child be placed with the killer’s family or with the victim’s blood relatives? Should the victim’s personal effects, diaries, estate and family heirlooms from before marriage go to the killer’s family or to the victim’s blood relatives? Who should have the greatest right of appeal against court rulings and sentences? In the interests of natural justice, people would expect the victim’s family to have the greatest rights and consideration, but they will be shocked to learn—as I was—that if a killer is next of kin, he enjoys greater rights than the victim’s family. The victim’s family even have to ask the killer for permission to give the victim a funeral.
I will provide a bit of background, although I know the Minister has already been given a great deal of material on this case. I have been raising issues on behalf of my constituent from St Ives, Joanne Bryce, for several years. Joanne’s sister, Claire Oldfield-Hampson, was killed by her husband, David Hampson, on 25 September 1996 at their home in the town of March, Cambridgeshire. He buried her body in the garden, and it was exhumed on 16 December 1998.
In what I have previously described as an “horrific injustice,” Hampson was convicted of the diminished charge of manslaughter, a charge that was mentioned to the family only a few days before the hearing. The plea was accepted because the Crown Prosecution Service and the judge, on the basis of the evidence that the police were able to gather and provide, ultimately accepted that Hampson had suffered the psychological effects of his wife’s nagging. My constituent, Joanne Bryce, points out that Claire’s character was completely vilified. Nine out of 11 national newspapers ran with the headline, “Nagging wife killed by husband.” It seemed that nagging was the capital crime and the killing was just a minor incident.
All that went unchallenged. Claire’s personal diaries must have included evidence of the family relationship. There were 15 diaries, but they were not used at all in the investigation. Much of the material in Claire’s diaries was not made available at the time or shown to the court. There was also video evidence of Felicity’s relationship with her mother, and Joanne has told me that 66 exhibits would have been placed in the public domain and subject to investigation, had there been a trial.
I know the Minister is not here to address the court case, but I raised the broader issues in a debate on Claire Oldfield-Hampson’s case on 8 January 2001 and in an Adjournment debate on 8 June 2011, in which the then Justice Minister, the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt), described the case as “mishandled,” which lets off Cambridgeshire constabulary and the CPS rather lightly.
There have been many questions and complaints about the competence of Cambridgeshire constabulary, and it would be easy just to brush the case aside and say, “Well, it’s a question of the competence of one particular constabulary, and those issues need to be looked at. They need to hold their hands up and acknowledge that they have failed, and they need to apologise for their failings.” It would be easy to draw a line there and to make that the end of the matter. Following the debate and the complaints raised by my constituent, Cambridgeshire constabulary asked Bedfordshire police to undertake an investigation into the case, and Bedfordshire police found that Cambridgeshire constabulary had seriously failed on a number of counts.
Cambridgeshire constabulary failed to provide a Home Office information pack to the victims of the crime. In fact, the constabulary provided the Home Office information pack to the family of the killer, arguing that they were victims, too, but it failed to give the information pack to the blood relatives of the person who was killed. The constabulary failed to let the family know that they were entitled to a family liaison officer. Apparently one was appointed, but the family were never told. The constabulary failed to identify to the family that there was a senior investigating officer.
We all know that we are not used to dealing with such processes, and we do not know what support the police are expected to provide. People cannot ask the question, “Where is our family liaison officer?” if they do not know that one is supposed to be provided. The last thing that people who are grieving, bereaved, angry, confused and sad about such a tragic event would know is their right to the kind of support that on this occasion the family clearly failed to receive.
There was a failure to provide information about the criminal injuries compensation scheme, particularly in relation to the funeral expenses. There was a failure to obtain evidence of Claire’s character, and, ultimately, the Director of Public Prosecutions wrote a letter to me a few years later, in 2003, apologising for allowing her character to be assassinated in court by the case in mitigation as a result of the police investigation’s failure to achieve a balanced inquiry.
There was a failure to investigate fraud and theft by the killer, too, because the police felt that, as they were going for the murder charge, fraud and theft were less important, and therefore they were swept away and ignored. The family were also denied access to their niece and granddaughter. Claire Oldfield-Hampson’s mother, Mary Oldfield, who was living in the area at the time that Claire’s body was exhumed, was unable to go back to live in the area and came to live with Joanne Bryce in my constituency.
The police also gave out to the media the address and phone number of Joanne Bryce without her permission. In reply to the Bryce family’s complaints about abusive phone calls from the killer’s sister, the family were told, “Well, she is a victim, too.” The family received one phone call at 10.45 pm on 16 December 1998 informing them that Claire’s body had been found and that she had been murdered, but no one offered any help. The family saw Cambridgeshire constabulary for the first time three weeks later.
Other matters of complaint and concern arise from the case. Joanne Bryce was told to get Claire’s bones moved from a hospital in Peterborough or the family would get a big bill. Of course, the family needed to get the killer’s permission before they could make contact with an undertaker or make arrangements for a funeral. How would anyone feel if they were told in those terms that they are responsible for resolving the matter but that they do not have the power themselves to ensure that the funeral takes place?
Cambridgeshire constabulary says that it investigated Claire’s bank accounts and that the documents were returned as not used by the CPS. When Joanne Bryce was advised by the bank manager that she must get copies of statements after the trial, she was told that those bank statements had never been asked for.
Victims’ families should not have to beg the killer’s family for family effects. All that my constituents have to remember Claire by is her wedding dress and an out-of-date passport. The war medals of her uncle, who died before Claire met and married her husband, her grandmother’s crockery, photographs and certificates were all denied Claire’s blood family, who were not allowed to enter her home. Meanwhile, the killer’s family, or indeed his girlfriend, could go in at any time and take things away.
If possessions of the victim are found years later in the hands of the police force, under the Senior Courts Act 1981, the family and victims should be advised and allowed to claim them. That was mentioned to me during the debate in 2011, the first time that my constituents were aware of that right. Those possessions should not have been sent to the perpetrator’s family, and the victim’s family should not have been told that the only way to recover them was by raising their own case in court through civil action, but that is effectively what the Bryce family were told about diaries dating back to 1983, long before the couple married.
I have spoken to many agencies about the issue, including Victim Support, which is considering it. Victim Support told me that when the next of kin is the perpetrator of the crime, it causes many issues, including, for example, for children’s carers, who must seek permission from the legal parent for even the simplest tasks, such as taking the children on holiday. However, the issue relates to family law, which is civil, not criminal. Unfortunately, neither the police nor other criminal justice agencies have control over the matter; it must proceed through family courts with the assistance of social services.
I am aware that the issue of next of kin falls into the rather murky territory of what next of kin means, because it is not specifically defined for all purposes. The forfeiture rule, which was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate during our last debate, is an instance of the wider principle that a person should not be allowed to profit from his or her crime. I do not think anyone is saying that in cases of domestic violence, profit is necessarily in the mind of the killer at the time, but taking advantage of the situation and disallowing the victim’s family access to the effects, estate and memory of their blood relative who has been killed is a matter that needs to be resolved. It is not a question of killing or murder in order to obtain the benefit of the estate for profit.
I have also heard from Refuge, which I am sure the Minister is aware is running a strong campaign at the moment to open a public inquiry into domestic violence in relation to the domestic homicide victim Maria Stubbings and many other cases. Refuge has a public petition that it is urging people to sign, and it is also supported by 38 Degrees.
The Government still need to address more issues than that of competence in this case. In my judgment, almost everything that could go wrong in the handling of an investigation and the relative rights of victims and perpetrators did go wrong in this case; everything that could be mishandled was mishandled. Cambridge constabulary make the calamitous Keystone Cops look like a highly professional and effective law enforcement agency.
Also—this is critical—I urge the Government to review the issue seriously and undertake a great deal of purposeful, although not lengthy, reflective work on considering how the interests of victims and their immediate blood relatives, particularly in cases of the kinds of killing and murder that I am referring to, can be balanced. They clearly have not been in this case. It is not just about mistakes; within the law, police do not have discretion to give victims and their blood relatives the consideration that they deserve. Between the point of arrest and the point of conviction, many serious mistakes are often made that can never be put right. They certainly were made in this case.
That is why I strongly urge the Minister and the Government, across both the Ministry of Justice and the Home Office, to consider the issue seriously and ensure, without denying alleged perpetrators the right to a fair trial, that victims’ interests are properly protected in such cases. I argue that we as a country should be taking a far more precautionary approach to protecting the interest of victims and their estate, and of blood relatives in killings and murders in cases such as the one that I have referred to. We can learn lessons from this case going forward. I fear that the same thing will happen again and again, that victims and their families will not have the right to redress and that when they do, it will be too late.
Although my constituent Joanne Bryce has not raised the matter with me, I happen to know that she has spent the past 15 years seeking expensive legal advice—on one occasion, she sought the advice of a private investigator—and travelling around the country pursuing these issues. She has had to remortgage her house and seek other assistance in order to continue seeking justice. She has not asked for compensation, but I must say on her behalf that I think she deserves some.
The issues raised by the case are extreme and serious. Although I know that I have raised some of them before, I have raised them again because I do not think that we can move on. I certainly know that Joanne Bryce and her family cannot move on. They fear that the lessons have not been learned. Such injustice in the imbalance of rights between alleged perpetrators and victims needs to be re-examined and put right.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. I pay heartfelt tribute to the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) for the diligence with which he has brought this distressing history to the House.
The death of Claire Oldfield-Hampson occurred in 1996. As the hon. Gentleman said, he instigated debates on the issue 12 years ago and in the past couple of years, and he has sought this debate to raise it again. That shows that he has the interests of his constituents at heart and wants to resolve some of the injustices that have occurred, so that other families do not have to experience what Joanne Bryce has experienced on behalf of her sister. That is a positive development for him. I hope that the Minister can give the family some comfort about the circumstances that they have faced.
The justice system self-evidently exists for witnesses and victims. Ultimately, victims are what the justice system is trying to prevent, and we are delivering justice to victims through the whole police, Crown Prosecution Service and courts process. For justice to be effective, it needs to have the confidence of those who use or are brought into the system. I was particularly struck by the hon. Gentleman’s comment that many of the people who enter the system do so for the first time in their lives; they are not law-breakers, but have suffered an injustice. Their experience of the justice system, how their case is treated—how the police, the CPS and the courts deal with them—and the outcome of the process are extremely important as to whether they feel that they have received justice.
I am not familiar with the case of Claire Oldfield-Hampson or the details of the difficulties mentioned by the hon. Gentleman, but from what he said about the investigation, the Cambridgeshire constabulary appears to be guilty of serious failings of process. Such issues can be corrected by good governance on the part of all police forces and of the Home Office. The policy we make in the House of Commons and in government could at least provide some standards, to which we hope everyone would aspire. When victims are treated with such indifference, justice and their confidence in justice are damaged; as the hon. Gentleman rightly said, it also leads to a long period without a feeling of closure, given the concerns expressed. He has done justice by bringing such matters forward, and we need to look at them.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned the standards of service we can expect from police forces, and I look forward to the Minister’s response. We should also, however, expect police standards for the service given to victims in the case of serious incidents. Those standards should be codified, presented, monitored and observed. If there are complaints, the Independent Police Complaints Commission, while examining serious incidents, should be able to monitor and give guidance on such matters. I hope that the new College of Policing, which the Minister and I are discussing in detail in the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, will give some opportunity for proper guidance to police forces on serious crimes, be they manslaughter or murder, and on the types of service provided as part of the CPS, charging and courts process.
The Minister will probably mention the Victims’ Commissioner, which was established by the previous Government. Louise Casey was the post holder until she moved on, when Baroness Newlove was appointed to the position. I hope that we will be able to use that post to set some of the standards on the rights of victims to which the hon. Gentleman referred, in proceedings in court and in other aspects of the justice system.
My hon. Friends who deal with Justice matters—I am the shadow police Minister—are looking hard at how to strengthen the rights of victims and witnesses in the courts and the criminal justice system. We want to place in statute a victims’ code that would cover the service that victims might expect to receive from the moment that they become a victim through to the closure of the court case, whenever that might be.
In particular, we are looking at how to give legally enforceable duties, enshrined in an Act of Parliament, to criminal justice agencies in a number of key areas. In some cases, that will help and support the objectives mentioned by the hon. Gentleman. One example might be a right to be kept informed by the police as an investigation proceeds, and as the prosecution develops and then proceeds. He made a point about a last-minute change of charge, and that would have been resolved in part by the involvement of the victims in any discussion. The family should have been consulted or at least informed about the CPS involvement, rather than finding out about the charge at a late stage, in a distressing way. Another example for our victims’ code might be the right to have the body of a loved one released within 28 days, except in exceptional circumstances. In particular, there should be a post-conviction right to be informed 28 days in advance of any perpetrator of serious crimes being released from custody, so that victims are aware.
We are also looking at how to give legal entitlements to victims, including the production of a victim impact statement and the right to be treated decently in court, including an explanation of court proceedings in advance. The first time that a victim, witness or supporting family member appears in the proceedings could be their first time in a court, because the situation is the first one serious enough to drive them to court. Ultimately, they are victims and witnesses, not perpetrators. There should also be a right to have sentencing remarks put in writing and to have access to the Victims’ Commissioner who can look at what happens when things go wrong. The commissioner should be a full-time, resourced post able to deal with such matters.
My party are also considering nominating a Minister in the Ministry of Justice or the Home Office to have responsibility for overseeing victims’ issues and to develop victims’ policy. I had such a role in Northern Ireland, when there were many victims. As a Minister, I dealt with cases on all sides of the community, looking at victims’ services and their development. The fact that a Minister had ultimate oversight of such matters meant that they arrived at my door and reached the Victims’ Commissioner.
The next-of-kin issues to which the hon. Gentleman has drawn the attention of the House today are particularly important. The Opposition cannot give him any comfort on them, but they are nevertheless worthy of investigation and discussion. The need to have the killer’s permission as next of kin to release the body, or the permission of the killer’s family to look at the property and its contents, and who should have care of a child, are important issues. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say, but I assure the hon. Member for St Ives that the Opposition will examine such matters, and I will draw them to the attention of my colleagues in the shadow Justice team.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned the family of Stephen Lawrence. That case, too, is not typical. There will always be failures in every aspect of our public life—in a small proportion—no matter what happens, but that case holds real lessons, which I hope that we have learned and that will help the chief constable of Derbyshire, Mick Creedon, in examining the Metropolitan police and its historical cases of spying on victims. Doreen Lawrence most certainly was a victim.
My experience, as a constituency Member of Parliament and as a former holder of the Minister’s office, is that police are trying to do a good job in all circumstances. They want to bring people to justice, to ensure that victims are fully involved in the process and to secure justice for victims across the board. There will, sadly, always be areas where those standards are not met, which is why we need a close examination of what the standards should be. We need strong guidance from the Home Office to forces about how we deal with such incidents, and we need to ensure that there is a method of redress if families or even hon. Members feel that they cannot deal with the issues, which is why I strongly support the Victims’ Commissioner and the strong Independent Police Complaints Commission that the Committee on the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill is currently considering.
I appreciate the hon. Member for St Ives bringing these issues before the House today. I hope that the family—Joanne Bryce and others who miss Claire to this day—will get some satisfaction from the fact that a Member of Parliament is still arguing for us to improve services for those who follow, and I wish him well in that. We will reflect on what he has said, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s contribution.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian Green)
It is a pleasure, as always, to serve under you, Mr Rosindell. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) not only on securing the debate, but on the fact that, as the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) said, he has mounted a campaign of such length and depth on behalf of his constituents. The case he has outlined is tragic and shocking, and we can only have sympathy for the family in those circumstances. My hon. Friend is right to continue to raise the case and to ask questions about the criminal justice system. He said many of his complaints were about the police, while others were about other parts of the criminal justice system. I am not just the Policing Minister at the Home Office, but the Criminal Justice Minister at the Ministry of Justice, so I hope I can deal with a large number of the important issues he raised across the board.
I think it is fair to say that the support for victims and their families has improved dramatically since this terrible case, but there is, absolutely, always more that can and should be done, and more will be done in the coming years. As my hon. Friend mentioned, my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt)—the previous prisons Minister—apologised for the way in which the case was handled in the first place, and Cambridgeshire police have also apologised. I apologise now on behalf of all the public agencies involved. Clearly, mistakes were made, and it is the Government’s job to ensure that such mistakes, which cause so much heartache and misery, cannot happen again.
My hon. Friend the Member for St Ives talked about the proceedings of the IPCC, which deals with serious and sensitive complaints against the police. One problem my hon. Friend and the family have had is that Ms Bryce made a complaint in 2004 to the Police Complaints Authority—the IPCC’s predecessor body—so the IPCC was unable, under the Police Reform Act 2002, to reopen the case. There are now instances where matters brought to the PCA’s attention can be reconsidered by the IPCC. We now allow for some cases that were previously investigated to be the subject of further investigation. The circumstances have to be exceptional, and the IPCC must be satisfied that the matters that have been complained about are unusually grave and that there is an overwhelming public interest in the matters being reinvestigated.
Andrew George
I was interested to hear the Home Secretary’s statement to the House a couple of weeks ago, when she acknowledged that she had spoken to Dame Anne Owers about the Stephen Lawrence case. Dame Anne had indicated that if issues arose from the investigation of the allegations in that case, she saw a role for the IPCC, even though the police had investigated these matters 20 years ago.
Damian Green
The legal block put in place in the 2002 Act referred specifically to complaints that had been referred to the PCA. I can see why it was introduced: to prevent every case the PCA had looked at from being investigated by the new body. However, there are, as I say, very large caveats, and there needs to be exceptional public interest. The matters that have been complained about must be unusually grave, and there must be overwhelming public interest in their being reinvestigated. That is the hurdle, but that possibility is there.
My hon. Friend mentioned the fact that the Criminal Cases Review Commission reviews cases for perpetrators of crime, but not for victims or their families. The CCRC reviews the safety of convictions and sentences on application by, or on behalf of, defendants. Generally, it may do so only when all available avenues of appeal have been exhausted, but, in carrying out its functions, it takes care to ensure that it complies with the spirit of the code of practice for victims, as well as with its obligations under it.
A number of points have been made about how appeal proceedings can, in circumstances such as those we are discussing, appear to favour the perpetrator rather than the families or the victims. Although victims and their families cannot appeal, they can make a personal statement to explain the impact of the crime on them. Any personal statement from a victim or their family that was produced for Crown Court proceedings should have been sent to the Court of Appeal with the other trial papers when the appeal was started. However, a victim or a member of their family can lodge or update a personal statement with the Criminal Appeal Office at any time during appeal proceedings. Obviously, it is better to do such things in good time before the hearing so that judges have time to read the statement, but it is possible to send in the statement at any time up to the day before the hearing. In addition, we intend to include information about victims’ entitlements at the appeal stage of the process in the revised victims’ code.
Andrew George
That is extremely helpful; in fact, in the original debate in January 2001, a request was made for victims to have a statement and to have a role in the proceedings—even in the kind of lower-order hearing that was used in this instance to advance the case in mitigation. In Claire Oldfield-Hampson’s case, no one answered the case in mitigation, which resulted in the castigation of her and the appalling way in which her memory was recorded. Is there, therefore, an opportunity to find a means by which the family can, even at this stage, put on the historic record something to counteract the slanderous comments that are now there as a result of the hearing?
Damian Green
If I may, I will take that thought away and think about it, because no criminal justice proceedings are continuing, and it is difficult to legislate for something that has already happened. As I say, one thing I hope will come out of these tragic circumstances is that we learn to improve conditions for future victims and their families. I hope I am going some way towards assuring my hon. Friend that lessons have already been learned and continue to be learned. However, I will take his point on board and give it some thought.
My hon. Friend made a powerful point about what can happen to family effects. I can perfectly well appreciate how those are so valuable in such circumstances. It is already the case that the person convicted of murder forfeits his or her right to inherit from the victim. However, as my hon. Friend mentioned, it should remain a fundamental principle of law that a person is innocent until proven guilty, so there are no plans to amend the law to restrict a person’s right to apply for probate before trial or to prevent relatives of a person convicted of murder from inheriting from the victim’s estate.
The current law provides some flexibility, however, so that on application the court can amend or revoke a grant without the consent of the appointed personal representative, in exceptional circumstances; for example, if the personal representative has been convicted of the deceased’s murder. In addition, it is now open to anyone to enter a caveat on the probate register to prevent probate from being granted. For example, a relative of a murder victim could enter a caveat to prevent probate from being granted until the circumstances of the death had been clarified. I hope that is helpful.
Andrew George
I am grateful for that advice. Clearly, if it had been available to Joanne Bryce and her family at the time of the events in question, circumstances would be entirely different now. I am sure that had my constituents been aware of such powers they would have sought a caveat on the probate immediately—had they not been grieving and distraught, and unable to act in such a way for themselves.
Can anything be done retrospectively in such cases, and, secondly, can it be made clear that in the twilight world, so to speak, between arrest and conviction, the blood relatives of the victim should be given the best legal advice, to ensure proper protection of their interests and the memory of the person who was killed?
Damian Green
The key to the point is the victims’ code. We are about to publish a new version of it, and have been consulting on it for the past few months. It is very important that victims’ rights should be better understood, not least by victims themselves and their families. Members of the public, as well as those who are habitually involved in criminal justice proceedings, need to be more knowledgeable about the code. Victims of crime are entitled to receive information, support and services under the victims’ code. That includes, for example, information about the criminal injuries compensation scheme and the appointment of a family liaison officer. As I have said, awareness of the code is not high enough—not only among victims but among criminal justice practitioners. That is why, as well as revising the code to make it more accessible, we shall use a range of methods, including short leaflet guides, to communicate it more effectively. Awareness will be raised through work with organisations such as Victim Support, whose extensive networks operate locally in every part of the country.
Structural changes made since the late 1990s and early 2000s will serve generally to raise awareness of means of redress, particularly among victims and their families. The most obvious and dramatic have been mentioned: each area will have a police and crime commissioner, whose basic task is to hold the chief constable to account. When there are serious complaints, such as there clearly were in the case that my hon. Friend has raised, the PCC will be the first point to go to; that is where there would be someone whose local responsibility was, in the case in question, to hold to account the Cambridgeshire force. That will be a significant step forward.
Andrew George
I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way once more. One hopes that people will not need to reach the point of making complaints. As I think I have shown, it is often too late when the point of contacting the police and crime commissioner is reached. Given that the case I have raised highlights an appalling contortion of justice, in which permission must be given by a killer for the blood relatives to get access to the death certificate, so a funeral can proceed, can my right hon. Friend at least tell me that we have learned that lesson? Can anything be done to avoid that absurdity in future? Surely families of the victim of a killing should not have to ask the killer for permission to proceed with a funeral.
Damian Green
I quite understand the point. I hope that, partly through the victims’ code, and by other means, we will be able to consider some of the specific serious issues that arise in the terrible case in question. Two more reforms are being brought in to help to prevent repetitions of some of the problems that arose, one of which was mentioned by the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson).
Firstly, to take up my hon. Friend’s point, we want to prevent recurrences: redress is important, but prevention is always the priority. The College of Policing has the precise task of raising professional standards throughout the many vital activities of the police. I hope that in relation to the case that my hon. Friend has raised the college could provide extremely useful guidance on sensitivity in interface with families, in addition to working on spreading best practice, making it easier and quicker for that to be spread between forces.
Secondly, we have also embarked on a wider reform of the criminal justice system. Much of the reform is about improving efficiency, but some of it is about making things more transparent. For everyone who becomes involved with the criminal justice system—and I take the point that often it will happen to a person once in their lifetime, perhaps because they are a victim or a victim’s relative, and so they do not want the involvement—things should happen in a clear, timely and efficient way, and be clearly explained. People should not be left waiting around for months or years waiting for a decision. That is another significant reform.
I have already mentioned police and crime commissioners, and they are perfectly placed to represent victims’ voices locally. We are legislating in the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, which is in Committee at the moment, so that from October next year PCCs will have clear powers to provide or commission the widest possible range of services for victims of crime. As has been mentioned, we have appointed a new Victims’ Commissioner, Baroness Helen Newlove, who began work in March. She is already meeting many victims and their families, to hear their views on the criminal justice system. Indeed, she sits on the criminal justice board that I have set up, which brings together the judiciary, the police, PCCs and various bodies that represent different parts of the system, precisely to drive through such reforms.
To address a particular point that my hon. Friend raised, in April 2011 we introduced domestic homicide reviews on a statutory basis, so that local areas and agencies will identify lessons learned, to help to prevent future homicides and violence, and make improvements. The reviews specifically encourage agencies to work more closely with friends and family members of victims, to see how they can share information at an earlier stage. I assure my hon. Friend and the family of Claire Oldfield-Hampson that we are considering how to improve means of redress for victims—we have discussed that briefly already—so they can hold the criminal justice agencies to account.
We have made a commitment to look at the case for an independent complaints ombudsman for the criminal justice system in the strategy and action plan I referred to. We have consulted on an improved complaints procedure in the new victims’ code, and we are keen to explore whether police and crime commissioners can play a role in ensuring that the high standards of service that we want and expect to see are maintained in every locality.
I am happy to assure my hon. Friend and the right hon. Member for Delyn that the Government are already taking forward many of the improvements that need to happen, and the victims’ code is already statutory. It is in secondary legislation, but any non-compliance may result in judicial review. The Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman is responsible for investigating complaints under the code, and there is a high level of compliance. The victim’s personal statement is key. We have consulted on putting victim personal statements in the code for the first time, which would give it a statutory footing. The Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), already has specific responsibility for victims and this area of policy. I am glad that that change has been welcomed on both sides of the House.
Nothing anyone can say can undo the past, but I hope that it is at least clear that our reforms put the Government and the law on the side of the victim and their family. We want to ensure that throughout the criminal justice process there is support for victims of crime and their families, that consideration of their needs and welfare is embedded in the way in which police and criminal justice agencies work, and that those needs are an absolute priority in their work and everything they do.
Capping Welfare Spending
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
I am delighted to have secured the debate. The level of welfare spending and whether it should be capped have been the subject of great public interest but have not been discussed much in Parliament, so this is a good opportunity to give the issue a short airing.
Even before the crash, the cost of welfare spending rose by 50% under the previous Government. All sides agree that when the good times rolled, too little action was taken, in the famous words of the Chancellor, to fix the roof while the sun was shining. The current Government have had little choice but to take necessary but tough decisions. We must live within our means, and welfare reform and capping welfare are key parts of that. It is a question of fairness. In my constituency and up and down the land, people go out, work hard and try to do the right thing for their families, spouses, children and loved ones, to make ends meet in difficult times. They look around and they tell me, “It’s simply not fair that there are people living on benefits who are better off than we are. Why do we go out to work? Why do we bother? Why not just live a life on benefits and be better off?” It is wrong that people who do not work enjoy a higher standard of living than people who go out to work and do the best they can.
Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the vast majority of those who are on benefit do not choose to live that lifestyle, but the previous Government designed a system that traps them, because they receive more in benefits than they are ever likely to get through work? The system traps people in that condition.
Charlie Elphicke
I completely agree with the powerful point that my hon. Friend makes. The number of households in which no member has ever worked doubled under the previous Government. As he says, we cannot stand by and allow social failure on such a grand scale to continue for a moment longer. That is why no family who are out of work should be better off on benefits; why a benefit cap is right; and why it is set at £26,000 a year.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that, from the perspective of a Yorkshire MP or an MP from another part of the country, the benefit cap could be much lower in certain areas, which would be much fairer to working people in those areas?
Charlie Elphicke
My hon. Friend makes an interesting point, which is certainly a topic for debate, so I hope that the Minister will address it when he responds. The Government have sent a positive social signal that work is a force for social good. Capping the amount of benefit that any one family can receive is right and has been met with great approval in my constituency. My constituents raised the issue time and again.
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for securing the debate and for giving way. At the beginning of his speech, he mentioned that the current Government had inherited debt from the previous Government. I remind him that after 18 years of the Conservative party being in power, that previous Labour Government found in ’97 that, for every pound levied in tax, 50p went to pay off debt. They eliminated a lot of inherited debt, but that is not my main point. When I was a Member under previous Conservative Governments, people were trapped in housing estates. The hon. Gentleman wants to call it the system that we inherited or whatever, but whatever system we bring in, there are going to be people trapped in certain estates—they used to be called Thatcher’s children.
Charlie Elphicke
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that interesting intervention, but I cannot agree with him. When the current Government came to office, the interest bill was the same as the entire education budget—I think that I am right in saying that. It was a very substantial amount. That is not a great showcase for fine administration of the public finances. It is well understood that the country’s debt was entirely out of control. I take his important point about social mobility and helping people to get out of the traps of poverty. Universal credit will make work pay, incentivise work and encourage people to do well, and that lies at the heart of much what the Government are doing. I approve of that approach. We need to build in incentives, by on the one hand limiting the amount of benefit and on the other hand encouraging work and making it pay.
Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)
For too long, people in my constituency who were out of work for considerable periods, because they had challenges that needed to be overcome, did not get the proper, expensive advice and support that they needed to get back into the workplace or into it for the first time. Does my hon. Friend agree that in these difficult times, with a limited pot of money, we are better off spending money on top-quality advice, rather than increasing the welfare budget?
Charlie Elphicke
Absolutely, and a lot of Government policy has been about that. The Work programme is a key part of giving people the tools, education and support to get back into the world of work and understand the rhythm of a working day.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
I thank my hon. Friend for taking my intervention. The Government are trying to ensure that the whole welfare system is perceived as fair. In a very low-pay constituency such as mine, the vast majority of people believe that the welfare cap is crucial if the system is to be fair and seen to be fair.
Charlie Elphicke
Absolutely. The system needs to be fair, and I hope that in his response Minister will address the important issue my hon. Friend raises.
The average pay packet has not increased much in recent years. The recession was serious and the recovery has been long, hard and extremely choppy, so it is right that welfare benefits should not increase faster than pay packets. It is unfair that benefits have risen twice as fast as average earnings since the financial crisis, which is why the Government are right to introduce a 1% uprating limit. My constituents have told me that that is an important signal about fairness and the fact that work is good. The Government are also right to make work pay, with universal credit and by increasing the income tax personal allowance. At the same time, the Government have sought to be fair and protect the most vulnerable—the disabled, the elderly and the incapacitated.
Benefit capping is about not only fairness, but money. We should remember the country’s debt crisis. Savings of £4.4 billion by 2017 are not trivial, so it is small wonder that more than 60% of people have told pollsters that they support the Government’s measures to restore fairness on benefit uprating. The Government have been prepared to make the most difficult decisions—I will not shirk that issue. Capping housing benefit, so that it is most aligned to housing need, has not been easy. It was a difficult decision. People do want to be told that they will have to pay more for their spare room, but that cap is also about fairness, which is why a clear majority of people tell pollsters that they support the difficult decisions that the Government have taken. There are 1.8 million households on the housing waiting list and 249,000 households live in overcrowded social housing, yet 386,000 households in the social sector are under-occupied. It is important that we take measures to restore the balance, so capping housing benefit is right and fair.
I would like to press the Minister slightly. Will he consider extending the principle of tackling the spare room subsidy, so that the social housing provider takes the burden? I am concerned that too many social housing providers think that they can simply pass the buck when it comes to managing their housing stock fairly and appropriately and making fair allocations. The spare room does not affect them, so why should they care? Too often, they are content to do little or nothing about fair housing allocation. The best incentive to get them to clean up their acts would be for social housing providers to take some or all of the burden for their incompetence in the management of housing allocations over such a long time. I hope that the Minister will consider that proposal, because it is right to send a strong message to social housing providers that indolence in housing management is not an excuse.
Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Would he particularly welcome the fact that, as of today, 2,500 out-of-work households in London can no longer claim more than the average working family earns? In London, where I was a senior councillor for several years, we have seen some particularly egregious cases of people in houses with equivalent rents of more than £100,000. I agree that that involved a few isolated cases, but it was a real slap in the face for hardworking people in London trying to get by on £10,000, £15,000 or even £20,000. A bit like with Abu Qatada and the human rights law, it crystallised for so many people the inequity and unfairness of things.
Charlie Elphicke
I completely agree with my hon. Friend. He made that same good point earlier today, in questions to the Prime Minister if I recall rightly. It is a serious point. We need to get a balance of fairness.
If we want to know whether people are affected, we need just to look at the local authority discretionary payments budget. Members can correct me if I am wrong—I am sure that the Minister will—but I believe that the budget has been under-spent, which indicates that the impact has perhaps been understated by some for political purposes, rather than their dealing with the practical effects of restoring fairness. Most of my constituents say, “It’s just not acceptable that anyone should have something for nothing, given the difficult times we live in.”
The Government have raised the issue of the overall cap, which is something I welcome strongly. It needs to be a serious cap, not the sort of nonsense that we have been hearing from the shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. He does not seem able to say what his cap would be or how he would set it. Labour cannot say what would happen if the cap was breached; all the party seems able to say is that it wants to include the state pension and pensioners in it. We need to limit welfare spending, but it is not right to do it at the expenses of pensioners who have worked hard for so many years and have contributed to the system. It would not be right for any Government to start beating pensioners up and taking their pensions away, considering how much they have put into the system, so Labour is wrong on that. The party is in a total muddle and confusion. It has opposed each of our welfare reforms, which have saved some £83 billion.
When might the Minister be able to set out further details of the Government’s plan for how the welfare cap will work? Labour’s proposals are muddled and confused, and it is right that the Government should take time to get the fine detail of the plan right, rather than shooting from the hip like Labour. Does the Minister agree that it is important to limit the cost of welfare and to build on the measures that the Government are taking to do more to make work pay? I ask him to confirm that this Government will not punish pensioners for having done the right thing in years past by contributing to the system and will not take away or limit the state pension, as the Opposition seem to plan to do.
With your leave, Mr Rosindell, I will end there and allow my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) to take up the cudgels.
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell, in this very important debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) on securing the debate. I am sure that we are both disappointed that no one from the Opposition is here to state their point of view, since they have opposed every benefit change we have put through.
I do not propose to speak for long because we want to leave plenty of time for the Minister to respond to the important points that my hon. Friend raised, but I want to share with hon. Members my recent experience of the benefit cap. As part of my duties in my constituency, I visited my local jobcentre to hear about the impact the benefit changes were having and to understand what actions were being taken there to help people to deal with the changes, and I was surprised to hear some positive news. One of the most positive things was that the jobcentre had appointed a social justice adviser, whose role is to work inside the centre with the people affected, helping them to understand where they might be able to make savings and what benefits they are entitled to. Their role is also to work with those who have been affected by the benefit cap.
The newly appointed social justice adviser talked to me with great pride about a case he had recently dealt with. He had invited in a person who was getting £700 a week in benefits for her and her family, and they had sat down and reviewed all the benefits she was receiving and all the money she was spending. What came out of all that was that she was paying £1,200 a month in rent. When they looked a little closer, they discovered that the property was substandard and was massively over the market value for a property on that estate. With a little bit of work and some involvement from the council, instead of her paying approximately £300 a week in rent, she now pays £85, which brings her below the benefit cap. She and her family are now in better accommodation and on the right track. The other advantage is that because she now falls below the cap she can afford to look for work.
The one thing that the cap has done is to make us all look again at who is in receipt of benefits, and rather than just abandoning them into the benefits trap we are bringing them out, to the jobcentres, and helping them to get their lives back on track. That woman’s life has been turned around purely and simply because the benefit cap was introduced. She is now looking for work because she can afford to, and she has escaped the trap.
I said I would be brief, so I shall draw to a close. We should not allow the Opposition to tell us that the things we are doing are terrible and have a dreadful impact on everyone. While we have to accept that there will be an impact, we must work with those who have been affected to help them see the benefits, and to see that work will pay and that we will make it pay for them. The changes that the Government have introduced are a genuine opportunity for people, and I was delighted to be able to see and hear about that at first hand on that recent visit.
The Government should be congratulated and, as I said right at the beginning, I am just disappointed that someone from the Opposition is not here to listen to this important debate and to congratulate the Minister before he sums up. I am thankful for having been given the opportunity to say a few words, and I again thank my hon. Friend for introducing this very important debate.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mr Mark Hoban)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) on securing the debate. It has clearly created a great deal of interest among Conservative colleagues and it is a pity, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) said, that no Opposition Members are here, because they have a lot of questions to answer when it comes to welfare reform, the benefit cap and the welfare cap. I shall now deal with those three areas.
It is absolutely right that we reform the welfare state and ensure that we have a fair and affordable system that provides incentives for work. Both my hon. Friends referred in their speeches to the benefit cap, which is a good example of our ensuring that there is fairness in the benefit system. It is absurd to have people on benefits taking home more than the average wage, and it is absolutely right that we tackle that through the work we are doing. Earlier this year, we rolled out the benefit cap in four areas across London, and this month we are moving to a wider national roll-out. The example cited by my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock is a powerful testament to the transformational effect that the cap can have on people’s lives.
I visited the London Bridge jobcentre in the run-up to the roll-out of the London pilots, and I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell) is aware of the work being carried out in his borough in the pilot stage. What struck me during that visit was the amount of support that was going in to help people, either to move accommodation or to find work as a way of avoiding the impact of the benefit cap. The link between fairness and incentivising work is embedded in the benefit cap, because if someone gets 16 hours’ work a week the cap does not apply to them, so there is a real incentive there for someone who has perhaps been out of work for some time and has depended on benefits to move into employment.
I pay tribute to Jobcentre Plus advisers who have worked with people to get them closer to the labour market to tackle the problem, and to the co-operation between Jobcentre Plus and local authorities in relation to the implementation of the benefit cap.
My hon. Friend the Member for Dover made a powerful point about the relationship between landlords and their tenants. There are many good examples of housing associations and local councils that work holistically with their tenants. They are concerned not only about whether they get the rent on time, but about their tenants’ health and employment prospects, as well as a range of issues, such as antisocial behaviour. The benefit cap and the roll-out of universal credit will drive that further forward. The move away from direct payment in universal credit requires landlords to take a much greater supportive interest in their tenants—to get them into work so that they can pay their rent. Our reforms are therefore working.
Julian Smith
May I tempt the Minister to comment on the idea of a regional benefit cap?
Mr Hoban
My hon. Friend may tempt me, although I do not want to be distracted from moving on to the welfare cap. Particularly given regional wage rates, what is set at a fair level in London appears to be higher in other parts of other country, but that is a debate for another day.
Since coming into office, we have sought to put the public finances on a more stable footing across the board. It is notable that this Government, unlike previous ones, have sought to find savings in the benefit bill. We must ensure that we do not repeat past mistakes—for example, the fact that the amount of money spent on tax credits and on housing benefit almost doubled under the previous Government. We need to have a system that is affordable in the long term and enables us to manage the welfare bill in a way that is sensible, reflects economic conditions and provides much greater discipline about how we spend our money.
That is why my right hon. Friend the Chancellor announced a welfare cap in his spending review. The cap covers more than £100 billion of welfare expenditure that has not been managed until now: because it is classified as annually managed expenditure, it was considered to be largely outside Government control, but that is not sustainable and it is not right. We are in a global race in which we must ensure that our tax rates are competitive and that we can control our benefit spending.
The Government can and should take action to control expenditure. The introduction of a cap will improve spending control, support fiscal consolidation and ensure that the welfare system remains affordable. Housing benefit, tax credits, disability benefits and pensioner benefits will all be included, but some benefits will be excluded, including the basic state pension and the additional state pension.
There are better ways to control expenditure on pensions, such as increasing the state pension age, and we have already announced plans to bring forward a state pension age of 67 by 2028. We are committed to introducing a regular and structured method for considering future changes in the state pension age, with the first five-year review taking place in the next Parliament.
We have received representations, such as those from the shadow Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls), about including the state pension in the Opposition’s version of the welfare cap, meaning that a future Government could offset a rise in working-age benefits by cutting the pensions of older people. I understand that some in the Labour party oppose the increase in the state pension age, but that would mean a reduction in state pensions under its version of the cap. I thought that the shadow Chancellor’s intervention showed that he had not properly thought that through and indicated that the Opposition’s target is really to cut the pensions of older people who have contributed to society and worked hard all their lives. Cutting pensions to pay for working-age benefits or to reduce the state retirement age are choices that this Government are certainly not prepared to make.
We will exclude also expenditure on automatic stabilisers, which are those areas of welfare expenditure that rise and fall with the economic cycle and dampen the effects of fluctuations in the country’s economic output. That will mean excluding from the cap a small number of the most cyclical benefits, such as jobseeker’s allowance and spending that is passported from jobseeker’s allowance.
My hon. Friends asked for more details about the cap. A nominal cap will be set from 2015-16 that will support the delivery of fiscal consolidation during the spending round period and beyond. It will be set over a five-year forecast period, starting in the second fiscal year from the date of the forecast, to allow policy changes to be developed and to take effect, if necessary. As the cap’s purpose is to manage structural increases in welfare spending, a margin above the cap will ensure that policy action is not triggered by small fluctuations in the forecast.
The Government will set the cap for 2015 in the Budget, alongside the Office for Budget Responsibility’s fiscal forecast, and we will publish further technical details in advance. To ensure that there is real challenge, the independent OBR will judge the Government’s performance against the cap. In future, when a Government look likely to breach the cap because they are failing to control welfare spending, the OBR will issue a public warning and the Government will be forced to take action to cut welfare costs or publicly to explain why they are breaching the cap.
The measures announced by my right hon. Friend in the spending review make a major contribution towards the control of long-term welfare spending, and they rightly recognise the contribution that older people have made to their pensions through saving. The Labour party did not recognise that contribution in its alternative proposals. To go back to my hon. Friends’ comments, we need to take difficult decisions on welfare and on how we spend taxpayers’ money, and we need to make sure that we have a system that is fair and affordable, so there is a real challenge.
People who criticise the reforms, as Labour Members do, need to tell us what they would do: would they reverse the cuts or accept them? Too often, we have heard mealy-mouthed statements from Labour Members, who say that they are against the cuts, but cannot say whether they will reverse them or stick to them. We know that our reforms are the right ones.
My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central made a helpful statement, in that the system too often stops people from working, as does the uncertainty that comes from people not knowing whether they are better off in or out of work and whether or not they earn more money. The major reforms that we are introducing—universal credit, the benefit cap and considering how to get more people out of welfare into work—are aimed at ensuring that our welfare state is fair, affordable and incentivises work. Today’s debate is an important contribution to making that argument. My hon. Friends’ interventions have made clear the scale of the change we are making.
I hope that this is not the last time that we debate this subject, and that next time someone from the Opposition might stand up and tell us what they believe in and are going to do, so that they can be pushed on that. I will not tempt any hon. Members to take part in the debate, but one, the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock), has just entered the Chamber—not quite the 8th Cavalry come to rescue the situation. We should now hold the Opposition to account by finding out what they would do to tackle the long-term challenges to our spending and to ensure that we have a fair and affordable welfare system that encourages and incentivises people into work.
UK Submarine Supply Chain
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure, Mr Rosindell, to see you in the Chair this afternoon. I am pleased to have secured this important debate on the supply chain for Britain’s submarines. It is particularly timely given the expected publication, perhaps within the next few days, of the Trident alternatives review—the taxpayer-funded vehicle that one half of the coalition Government set in motion to prove that they were right all along about their idea to scrap Trident in favour of some sort of mini-deterrent. How the Government respond to the review will have a direct bearing not only on thousands of jobs across the country but on Britain’s standing as a cutting-edge manufacturing nation.
The submarines that are built by the skilled workers in my constituency are truly extraordinary. The Astute-class boat currently under construction and the Vanguards, which carry Britain’s nuclear deterrent, are among the most technologically sophisticated vessels on the planet. It is no exaggeration to describe them as more complex than the space shuttle.
Barrow is rightly proud of the role that its boats play in ensuring Britain’s security. As an aside, may I say how much I am looking forward to welcoming the Minister to Barrow shipyard next week for the laying of the keel of the six Astute-class submarines? It would be a serious mistake to think that submarine building happens only in Barrow-in-Furness. In fact, this is an enterprise that brings together at least 1,200 firms from every corner and nation of the United Kingdom. The high-tech components and parts, the cutting-edge design skills and the essential services are ultimately brought together in Barrow for the Royal Navy.
It was great to welcome the representatives of some of those firms to Westminster last week when I hosted, along with BAE Systems and the Keep our Future Afloat campaign, a well-attended reception to mark the importance of the supply chain. We were grateful to the Minister for attending and speaking so warmly about the importance of those jobs. The workplaces represented included Rolls-Royce in Derby, which produces the nuclear reactors that power the submarines; Sheffield Forgemasters, which rolls and cuts the high-quality steel for the boats; Babcock, which has employees across the country including Clydeside, Chesterfield and Ludlow; Thales from Glasgow, which makes the periscopes and other communication systems; Truflo Marine, a valve maker from Birmingham; Ultra Electronics from west London; Meltog, a tube-making firm from Leeds and MacTaggart Scott, a naval component engineers from Midlothian.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on bringing this important matter to the Chamber. He is talking about the manufacturing skills across England, Scotland and other parts of the United Kingdom. Does he feel that the retention of manufacturing skills is vital for our future and that the Government need to give a commitment to retaining the number of submarines, so that we can have a continuity of skills and supply?
John Woodcock
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. This is a finely balanced exercise. We are talking about enterprise stretching across the United Kingdom. Any gap, delay or reconfiguration of the programme could endanger the nation’s whole capacity to build submarines.
The firms that I have just mentioned account for at least 13,000 high-skilled manufacturing jobs—the exact sorts of jobs that everyone in this place agrees are essential if we are to rebalance the economy away from an over-dependence on the City of London and financial services. At Westminster last week, those firms made it clear just how vital the submarine programme is to them. Indeed, the chief executive of Forgemasters said that his iconic firm simply would not be able to continue trading if it lost its steel orders for naval submarines. Firms such as those, which are in almost every constituency, will be watching closely when the Trident alternatives review is published and as the debate continues on deterrent renewal in the run-up to the vote on main gate approval in 2016.
Of course the final decision on renewing Britain’s nuclear deterrent, and on what form it should take, cannot be made solely on the basis of jobs in the manufacturing sector. Quite rightly, it will primarily be an assessment of what is needed to guarantee the security of the nation against a nuclear threat in future decades. None the less, we must guard against superficially attractive half measures in the name of economising that will in fact save little or no money, seriously damage Britain’s high-tech manufacturing sector and jeopardise the country’s defences for many decades to come.
Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con)
We know that the Liberal Democrats, the party of half-measures, are very half-hearted and mealy-mouthed about this issue, and it is no surprise to me that they are not represented here today. I think the direction of travel of my Conservative party, ably led and assisted by my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) here, is absolutely clear; we wish to have a Trident replacement. Will the hon. Gentleman give me some assurances that the Labour party, another potential party of Government, has the same view on this matter?
John Woodcock
Indeed I can, and I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. As he knows, it was the previous Labour Government who took the difficult but right decision to press ahead with Vanguard renewal. We set in place that programme, and we were disappointed that, following the coalition agreement, a delay was put on main gate and the in-service date. That has stretched the programme to its limit, but the Labour party remains committed to a minimum credible deterrent as long as other countries have it. Once one makes that call and genuinely believes it, as we do, the argument that I am setting out today is that there is only one logical conclusion, which is to renew Vanguard on the programme that is under way at the moment, or indeed even to speed it up.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
My apologies for being slightly held up; the Defence Committee over-ran by a couple of minutes. I had the great privilege of visiting the yard with my hon. Friend a few weeks ago. Given the experience of the Astute programme, will he share with the Chamber the consequences of introducing another delay?
John Woodcock
My hon. Friend touches on a key issue. I will come on to that in a moment if I may, because I have some important questions on which the Minister can give us some reassurance.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his generosity in giving way. I should like to revert to the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Jonathan Lord), whom I thank for his kind remarks, which I did not deserve. Will the hon. Gentleman cast his mind back to the last Defence questions, when the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) made the excellent point from the Dispatch Box that if the alternatives study says that the choice is between a full-time deterrent and a part-time deterrent of, say, only two submarines, then at least we should get round to signing the contract straight away for the two submarines? I was encouraged by that and I shall be pressing the Secretary of State for a meeting to discuss that proposal so that Trident cannot again become a political football between the Liberal Democrats and the two major parties that support it.
John Woodcock
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his wise words on this issue, which we hear so often from him. There could well be a number of reasons why it makes sense to bring forward the main gate decision. Indeed, if that requires a new coalition for that one issue in this Parliament, then I know that many of us, from across the House and in this Chamber today, will be prepared to be a part of it.
I will make a little more progress. Although it seems that the Trident alternatives review is set to dismiss such options as a land-based, air-based or surface ship delivery system, and indeed to give up finally on the Liberal Democrats’ mini-deterrent fantasy of adapting Astute-class submarines to carry nuclear-tipped cruise missiles, recent media coverage has suggested that the review may set out proposals to abandon the UK’s posture of continuous at-sea deterrence, which for decades has ensured that at least one British deterrent submarine is operational at all times.
We read that that could take place either when the Vanguard submarines reach the end of their life or perhaps even within the next few years, if the extensive leaks to the national newspapers can be believed. Colossal savings could be realised, says the unnamed brain-box who briefed the Financial Times in May. We are also told that we could build half the boats and save half the capital costs. As the submarines are predicted to cost, on average, about £2.5 billion each, that must mean a £5 billion saving to the Exchequer. Also, we are told that £1 billion a year could be saved by downgrading Britain’s nuclear capability to a part-time deterrent. Perhaps we could even keep Britain’s nuclear warheads in a cupboard, as the hon. Member for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey) has curiously put it in the press. Alternatively, perhaps the main gate decision could not be brought forward but further delayed, and the proposed in-service date for the new submarines could be put back yet again.
Unfortunately, I am afraid that like so much that the Minister’s coalition partners transmit on defence issues, all of that is complete bunkum. For starters, does the Minister agree that it is nursery school logic to believe that we can save half the capital by building half the boats? The outlay on the submarine fleet is not simply a matter of purchasing these submarines; it is also about investing in the ability to design and build them. Those costs are fixed, whether we order two, four or more submarines—I am not necessarily suggesting that we order more than four submarines. Therefore, can the Minister confirm that he anticipates that the first of class would cost effectively double the average across the fleet, and that the fourth boat would be the cheapest of the batch? Can he also confirm that there would be significant savings from placing a four-boat order from the outset, rather than ordering two with the option to order two more? Also, can he confirm that if the Government were inclined to press ahead with the main gate decision in this Parliament, as was originally planned, there could be further substantial savings for the British taxpayer?
Similarly, with running costs the savings would not be anything like the amount that the antis boast it would be. Will the Minister confirm that at least 70% of those costs are fixed, covering the fuelling and basing facilities, and that they will be the same whether Britain operates patrols around the clock or takes the submarines on the occasional fishing expedition once or twice a year? What is his estimate—if he can share it with the House—of the annual savings that would accrue from stepping down from a class D posture?
Also, given the high fixed costs, does the Minister agree that abandoning class D would mean a disproportionate downgrading of the deterrent’s capacity to deter the grotesque horror of a nuclear war, by removing the guarantee that currently exists, namely that any nation that launched a nuclear attack on the UK could be hit by a counter-strike no matter what damage our country sustained? Furthermore, does he agree that it would be highly perverse if those who pursue disarmament—admittedly for absolutely laudable motives—were actually to increase the risk of nuclear conflict in future decades through their unilateral gestures, rather than making the world safer? Also, if I can tempt him to speculate, does he think that it was that woolly thinking from the Liberal Democrats that has left the party in the extraordinary position of having no representation at all in the defence ministerial team at this vital moment?
John Woodcock
Well, let us see.
On the timing of main gate, will the Minister confirm that a further delay to the build process is effectively ruled out by his Department’s assessment, which was communicated to me by the Secretary of State at the last oral questions, that the Vanguard hulls would be rendered unsafe if their life was extended beyond the current 35-year plan, which of course is the longest period that any British submarine has ever been in service?
Finally, building two boats rather than four means that work across the UK supply chain could grind to a halt as early as 2031, six years earlier than is currently expected. Without more submarines to build, Barrow’s unique specialised work force will break up, as they did the last time there was a gap in the submarine drumbeat. However, as we have just discussed, the consequences would be felt in every part of the United Kingdom. That would leave us with two expensive choices. Either the Government, and taxpayers, would have to pick up the tab for the sustained unemployment of that work force, and consign to history the nation’s capacity to build submarines, with the loss of valuable skills and export spin-offs that would occur as a result, or alternatively—this is surely more likely—the Government of the day would bring forward the next submarine programme. That programme would involve the successors to the Astute class submarines, which of course have not been built yet, sooner than those vessels are actually needed from a military naval capability assessment, to keep the industrial drumbeat going. Can the Minister confirm that because that would mean that the bulk of capital spending on that next generation of boats would be required as early as the Parliament after the next one, bringing that spending forward—by bringing forward the successor to the Astute class—would completely wipe out the savings from ending continuous at-sea deterrence?
Bluntly, that is the choice that we would face if the decision was made to abandon class D. We would have to be prepared either to put at grave risk a significant part of Britain’s cutting-edge industrial base or to bring forward a significant amount of spending well before it would actually be needed.
Everyone in this House has a responsibility to guard against siren voices peddling false economies. The submarine supply chain is one of Britain’s great unsung assets, providing high-skilled manufacturing jobs that will rebalance the economy. We must not sacrifice those 13,000 jobs on the altar of cuts that would end up saving nothing significant at all but would leave the country vulnerable in future decades.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Dunne)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Rosindell.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) on securing this important debate. He is a doughty champion of the skills and activities that take place around the submarine programme in his constituency, and I am delighted to have this opportunity to respond to this debate and to put on record the Government’s appreciation of all the work that he has done in his constituency to support that programme.
The recent return of HMS Trenchant from a record-breaking 11-month patrol reminds us of the unwavering dedication of our submariners. For 267 days, she was east of Suez, where our submarines have had a presence since 2001 and where she took part in NATO’s counter-terrorism and counter-narcotics operations. Therefore I would like to start my contribution to this debate by thanking all of those who serve in our submarines and their families, who support their loved ones while they are away, often for months on end. Their commitment is sustained because they know the importance of the role they undertake in protecting our nation. Whether they serve on a fleet submarine contributing to current operations—as HMS Triumph did, by launching cruise missile strikes during the NATO-led operation in Libya—or they deliver our continuous at-sea deterrent by patrolling the oceans every minute of every day—in April, of course, the Prime Minister welcomed HMS Victorious back from the 100th patrol of the current deterrent fleet, which was a notable milestone—our submarines have served this country steadfastly for more than 100 years. But their role is only made possible thanks to thousands of people around the UK, who build, support and maintain the submarines. Although Barrow, as the centre of excellence for submarine production, has the most visible part to play in this programme, we do not rely on that Cumbrian town alone.
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)
Although it might be out of order, I would like to put on record the work done by the deep maintenance people in Babcock in Plymouth.
Mr Dunne
I am naturally grateful to the hon. Lady for reminding me. She pre-empts my own remarks. I am happy for her to endorse that, because it is not just Cumbria that contributes to this enormous effort.
From specialist diver support courtesy of Divex in Aberdeen, to marine valves courtesy of Hale Hamilton in Uxbridge, not so far away, few corners of the UK do not benefit either directly or indirectly from the £9.8 billion total cost of the Astute programme—not least the maintenance on the south coast that the hon. Lady mentioned.
The current submarine build programme alone sustains more than 10,000 jobs across the UK, as we have heard. There are some 5,000 high quality and skilled jobs at nine BAE Systems sites across the UK and thousands more are supported through 400 suppliers across the country. Thanks to our commitment to build seven Astute class submarines, as set out in the strategic defence and security review, these people are set to be busy for years to come.
These are the biggest and most advanced attack submarines ever ordered for the Royal Navy and the first two have bidden farewell to Barrow to join their cousins at their base port, Clyde naval base. But the pace does not slacken. I have seen for myself the hive of activity that is the Devonshire dock hall, as the third boat, Artful, is set to follow closely behind. Construction of boats four, five and six is also underway.
It is easy to focus only on BAES in Barrow, but we should not forget that the power plant at the heart of every nuclear submarine—in the past, now and in the future—has come from the Rolls-Royce facility at Raynesway in Derby. Rolls-Royce has been central to our nuclear-powered submarine fleet for more than 60 years, as the only company in the UK with design and production capability in nuclear submarine reactor systems. We recently announced an investment of more than £1 billion, to ensure we retain this unique national strategic capability for many years to come. This investment will regenerate the facility and sustain reactor core production at the site, securing some 300 of the most highly skilled manufacturing jobs in the process.
Likewise, the fleet could not continue to operate without the support provided at Devonport dockyard, as the hon. Lady highlighted. The refuelling, refits and overhauls that are essential to keeping our submarines at sea are all carried out here, as the centre of excellence for submarine maintenance.
It is not only England that plays its part in the submarine programme. Quite apart from the vital work done in support of our operational submarines by the 6,700 personnel supporting operations on the Clyde, firms across Scotland are winning contracts in the supply chain for build and maintenance of the fleet. For example, as hon. Members from Scotland present in the Chamber are no doubt aware, the sensor support optimisation contract I signed recently with Thales UK in May has secured 50 high tech jobs in Glasgow, along with a further 250 in Crawley, Manchester and Somerset.
Thomas Docherty
The Minister knows that I am a huge supporter of the submarine programme. He has mentioned Scotland and is also aware of the seven now decommissioned submarines, lashed against the wall at Rosyth. If he has time, will he say a little bit about the plans for the end of their lives, and if not will he meet me, perhaps in the autumn, to discuss how that programme is progressing?
Mr Dunne
I am afraid that I do not have time to cover that point, but I am more than happy to meet the hon. Gentleman in the autumn to talk about the disposal programme. We made an announcement recently. The hon. Gentleman knows that this multi-year challenge is being carefully monitored and managed by the Ministry of Defence.
The sensor support programme contract that we signed with Thales will provide support to the eyes and ears of the fleet, which includes periscopes, sonar and electronic warfare systems for both the current and future submarine classes, as well as vessels in our surface fleet.
Although the ongoing build programme and the support to the current fleet are the most visible signs of our continued investment, defence is all about planning for the future and we must look ahead to building the next classes of submarine, the subject to which the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness devoted most of his speech. I will attempt to deal with some of the questions that he posed, but will not cover all of them, as he may not be surprised to learn.
We have learned much about the importance of sustaining this supply chain from the 10-year gap in submarine production in the UK after HMS Vengeance was launched in the 1990s, which the hon. Gentleman mentioned in respect of delays to the Astute class. Having to re-establish a submarine design, build, testing and commissioning capability that had lain dormant for a decade had a serious impact on the delivery of the Astute class and economic ramifications in Barrow. This has been well documented, but it is important that we do not lose sight of these hard lessons. For this reason, the Astute programme is crucial to sustaining the skills and the work force we need to meet our clear commitment to retain and renew a credible, continuous and effective minimum nuclear deterrent.
Dr Julian Lewis
I thank the Minister for giving way. I know that his time is so limited. It is worth putting on the record that the Prime Minister has said that, as long as he remains leader of the Conservative party, we will have a continuous at-sea deterrent. But it would help—and it would be nice—if those of us who have requested a meeting with the Secretary of State to discuss how we can prevent being blackmailed in future by the Liberal Democrats in the event of a hung Parliament, as we were in the past, could be given a particular date to look forward to.
Mr Dunne
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reinforcing the commitment of the Conservative party, from the highest levels, to continuous at-sea deterrence. I was not aware that he had requested a meeting with the Secretary of State. I am happy to take that up, and if the Secretary of State is unavailable I am happy to meet him as a fall-back, in the first instance.
The Astute programme is crucial to sustaining the skills and the work force that we need. Through that programme, we are undertaking the planning required to prepare for the successor submarines that will replace the Vanguard class from the late 2020s. Hon. Members will be aware that we are taking the steps necessary to be ready to start building the first submarine as we lead up to a main gate decision in 2016.
The hon. Member for Barrow and Furness asked whether this decision could be advanced, saying that this might help both cement the decision and, potentially, reduce the cost. Another lesson that we have learned from shipbuilding programmes is that unless the design is mature enough at the time that the investment decision is made—in other words, if a decision is rushed—additional frictional cost could be built in, through changes to the design programme after the contract has been priced, which can delay the programme and add significantly to the cost thereafter. We do not want to repeat the mistakes made at the time of the Astute contract being laid, by making a premature decision on the successor design.
John Woodcock
That is a good point. Could we have main gate and then do the pricing at some point later?
Mr Dunne
As the hon. Gentleman will learn as he gets more used to the defence procurement rules and regulations that apply in the Ministry of Defence, the main gate investment decision is taken at such time as the design is available, to enable the contractor to price against it. It is on the basis of a price proposal—not necessarily a firm price, but normally it will be, under this Government—against a specific design. That is the main investment decision point and we do not believe, at this time, that it will be possible to advance it.
I will press on, if I may, rather than addressing too many of the hon. Gentleman’s other specific questions. He asked about our commitment to continuous at-sea deterrence. I think that I have addressed that from the Conservative point of view. He asked about the alternatives review and the position of the Liberal Democrats. I have to refer him to the Liberal Democrats, to await the publication of whatever they or the Deputy Prime Minister choose to publish in relation to that.
We are clear that stability and security for the UK are absolute priorities in the Ministry of Defence, albeit they must be managed within a financially restrained approach, in these difficult economic circumstances. We have led the way in the submarine domain, in seeking to extract efficiencies through the submarine enterprise performance programme, which will help to ensure we have an affordable programme that continues to stimulate growth and secure jobs and, most importantly, continues to deliver some of the world’s most advanced, powerful and formidable machines to the Royal Navy.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Statements
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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New Regulation (Sixth Statement)
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Michael Fallon)
The Government are today publishing the sixth statement of new regulation. This statement reports on regulations within the scope of the “One-in, Two-out” rule which are expected to come into force between 1 July and 31 December 2013. The statement shows that the sum total of Government deregulation since January 2011 and December 2013 will be to reduce the net annual cost to business by around £931 million.
The statement also reports on the red tape challenge measures expected to come into force and progress on the targets; and EU measures which are implemented by UK regulations.
In parallel, Departments are each publishing a summary of the regulations they intend to introduce.
I am placing a copy of the statement in the Libraries of both Houses.
Civil Service Reform
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
In June 2012 Sir Bob Kerslake and I published the civil service reform plan. Today we are publishing a report on civil service reform one year on.
The plan set out a series of actions which, fully implemented, would deliver a civil service that is smaller, flatter, and faster; more digital, more unified, focused on outcomes not process; more capable, with better performance management; with modern terms and conditions, and more accountable for delivery. Progress in implementing these actions has been mixed.
The civil service today is 15% smaller than in 2010, and productivity is correspondingly higher. Some of the actions in the plan could not have been expected to be complete in 12 months. On others, substantial progress has been achieved. But on too many actions too little of what was set out to be delivered by this point has been fully executed. We are determined that the pace of implementation will now accelerate.
I said in June 2012 that the plan was not the last word in reform. I set out today some further reform actions. We will introduce five-year fixed-term tenure for permanent secretaries. We will enable Ministers in charge of Departments to appoint personally an extended ministerial office (EMO) including career civil servants, civil servants recruited externally on fixed-term appointment (according to Civil Service Commission guidance and subject to the civil service code), and special advisers. IPPR concluded in their report which I published last month that Ministers in Britain received much less direct support than Ministers in countries with systems similar to ours. We will strengthen the corporate leadership of cross-Government functional services, including HR, procurement and commercial, IT and digital, legal and finance. We will make changes to improve further the delivery of major projects.
Fuller details are set out in the “One Year On” report, which I am placing in the Library.
Financial Services Authority
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Greg Clark)
The annual report 2012-13 of the Financial Services Authority (FSA) has today been laid before Parliament.
Copies are available in the Vote Office and Printed Paper Office. The report forms a key part of the accountability mechanism for the Financial Services Authority under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (FSMA), and assesses the performance of the Financial Services Authority over the past 12 months against its statutory objectives.
Afghanistan (Roulement)
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond)
The next roulement of UK forces in Afghanistan is due to take place in October 2013. Around half of these units will form Taskforce Helmand under the command of 7th Armoured Brigade. The remainder will deploy within Helmand and to other locations in Afghanistan—particularly Kandahar and Kabul—as part of the UK’s overall contribution. The forces deploying include1:
7th Armoured Brigade Headquarters and Signal Squadron (207) |
Headquarters 101 Logistics Brigade |
857 Naval Air Squadron |
3rd Regiment Royal Horse Artillery |
The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers and Greys) |
9th/12th Royal Lancers (Prince of Wales’s) |
Elements of The Queen’s Own Yeomanry |
Elements of 5th Regiment Royal Artillery |
Elements of 14th Regiment Royal Artillery |
Elements of 16th Regiment Royal Artillery |
Elements of 32nd Regiment Royal Artillery |
Elements of 39th Regiment Royal Artillery |
Elements of 47th Regiment Royal Artillery |
32 Engineer Regiment |
63 Works Group Royal Engineers |
Elements of 36 Engineer Regiment (Search) |
Elements of 42 Engineer Regiment (Geographical) |
Elements of 101 (City of London) Engineer Regiment (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) |
Elements of 10th Signal Regiment |
Elements of 14th Signal Regiment (Electronic Warfare) |
Elements of 15th Signal Regiment (Information Support) |
Elements of 21st Signal Regiment (Air Support) |
Elements of 30th Signal Regiment |
Elements of 39th (Skinners) Signal Regiment |
1st Battalion Coldstream Guards |
The Highlanders, 4th Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland |
2nd Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment |
3rd Battalion The Mercian Regiment (Staffords) |
Elements of 3rd Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment |
Elements of 3rd Battalion The Royal Welsh |
Elements of 4 Regiment Army Air Corps |
Elements of 9 Regiment Army Air Corps |
2 Logistic Support Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps |
27 Theatre Logistic Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 7 Theatre Logistic Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 11 Explosive Ordnance Disposal Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 29 Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 151 (London) Transport Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 158 (Royal Anglian) Transport Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 162 Movement Control Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 159 Supply Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 148 (Expeditionary Forces Institute) Squadron The Royal Logistic Corps |
2 Medical Regiment |
202 (Midlands) Field Hospital |
203 (Welsh) Field Hospital |
2 Close Support Battalion Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers |
Elements of 7 Air Assault Battalion Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers |
Elements of 101 Force Support Battalion Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers |
Elements of 103 (Hybrid) Battalion Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers |
111 Provost Company Royal Military Police |
Elements of 114 Provost Company Royal Military Police |
Elements of Special Investigation Branch Regiment Royal Military Police |
Elements of The Military Provost Staff Corps |
Elements of 1st Military Working Dog Regiment |
Elements of 1 Military Intelligence Battalion |
Elements of 2 Military Intelligence (Exploitation) Battalion |
2 (Army Cooperation) Squadron, Royal Air Force |
617 Squadron, Royal Air Force |
51 Squadron Royal Air Force Regiment |
58 Squadron Royal Air Force Regiment |
Number 5 Royal Air Force Force Protection Wing Headquarters |
Number 2 Tactical Police Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 24 Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 30 Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 32 (The Royal) Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 216 Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 39 Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 13 Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 27 Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 51 Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 99 Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 33 (Engineering) Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 90 Signals Unit, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 1 Air Control Centre, Royal Air Force |
Elements of Tactical Supply Wing, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 1 Air Mobility Wing, Royal Air Force |
Elements of Tactical Medical Wing, Royal Air Force |
Elements of Number 1 Royal Air Force Police Wing |
Elements of Number 2 Royal Air Force Police Wing |
Elements of 2 (Mechanical Transport) Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 93 (Expeditionary Armaments) Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of Engineering and Logistics Wing, Royal Air Force Odiham |
1Where the contribution is 10 personnel or more. 2In some cases there will be up to three rotations of Royal Navy and Royal Air Force individual augmentees during Herrick 19, due to differing deployment durations often occurring outside the numbered Herrick iterations. |
In addition to the list of formed units, individual augmentees from each of the services will continue to deploy as part of this integrated force package. In total we expect around 1,119 individual augmentees to deploy on operations. This will be comprised of 246 Royal Navy personnel, 370 Army personnel and 503 Royal Air Force personnel2. The Royal Air Force currently provides the command element of Headquarters Joint Force Support (Afghanistan), with the wider headquarters manned by individual augmentees from all three services. 101 Logistic Brigade will deploy in November to take on this role.
Volunteer and ex-regular members of the reserve forces will continue to deploy to Afghanistan as part of this integrated force package, and we expect to issue around 400 call-out notices. On completion of their mobilisation procedures, the reservists will undertake a period of training and, where applicable, integration with their respective receiving units. The majority will serve on operations for around six months although a small proportion of any force that is stood down due to force level reductions is likely to be reservist.
As the Prime Minister announced in December 2012, the UK’s conventional force levels in Afghanistan will draw down to around 5,200 by the end of 2013, from the current level of around 7,900. As part of this draw down, there will be around 6,000 personnel in Afghanistan from autumn 2013. However, this figure may fluctuate and occasionally exceed this total due to relief in place and additional surges into theatre.
As announced by the Defence Secretary on 14 May 2013, some elements of 7th Armoured Brigade will deploy on Op Herrick 19 for up to eight months. This will remove the requirement to train and deploy an extra brigade, at greatly reduced scale, to cover the final months of 2014. It will also align tours to key milestones in the transition process, such as the Afghan presidential elections in spring 2014. A small number of reservists may voluntarily serve eight months.
I shall make a further statement on 7th Armoured Brigade’s planned replacement formation, 20th Armoured Brigade, nearer the time of their deployment.
UK Coal Operations Ltd
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Michael Fallon)
I want to update the House following UK Coal Operations Ltd’s (UKCOL) announcement on Tuesday 9 July 2013 , that it had secured court approval to place the company into administration, with PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) appointed as administrators, with a view to saving as many of its mining operations as possible, including its two remaining deep mines at Kellingley and Thoresby and six surface mining operations, and securing jobs for around 2,000 employees.
I understand that the company’s directors concluded that it was impossible for UKCOL to continue trading in its current form following the impact on its finances after the serious fire which broke out on 22 February 2013 and the subsequent decision to close Daw Mill colliery in Warwickshire on 7 March 2013.
The process of entering administration is continuing and we should await the outcome. I understand that PwC have already communicated with the workforce, their union representatives and the company’s creditors to explain the implications for them.
Given the closure of Daw Mill, it will not form part of the new company. Our priority now is to support the mine’s former employees through the redundancy payments service. The Government will of course meet the full statutory costs of any redundancies.
PwC are arranging a series of support sessions next week to help redundant employees to complete the necessary documentation for statutory redundancy payments and any other benefits as quickly as possible. PwC have set up a website which will provide individuals with up to date information.
In addition, the Jobcentre Plus rapid response service will be deployed to help mitigate the immediate impact of job losses, and where appropriate skills are no longer in demand arrange retraining. This builds on the work which has already been undertaken by Jobcentre Plus and other partners since the Daw Mill fire in February.
The cross-Government response, co-ordinated by my officials, will continue during the administration process to ensure everything possible is done to support the workforce and the local communities.
Universal Credit
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Today we set out the next stage of the roll-out for universal credit following the successful launch of the pathfinder in Greater Manchester, on time earlier this year.
Starting from October, the national roll-out will be comprised of three strands.
First, across all jobcentres we will roll out components to drive the cultural shift under universal credit. Notably 20,000 Jobcentre Plus advisers will be retrained to deliver the claimant commitment and enhanced job search support nationally. Ten in-work conditionality pilots will test how best to encourage claimants to progress in work.
Secondly, we will roll out improved access to digital services across Jobcentre Plus. A total of 6,000 new computers will be installed across the country, embedding digital technology and ensuring that jobseekers become used to online transactions.
Thirdly, expanding on our early approach, universal credit will roll out to the regions, with six hub jobcentres—Hammersmith, Rugby, Inverness, Harrogate, Bath, Shotton—taking new claims to the benefit. This plan continues the safe approach to delivering this extensive reform, meaning universal credit will be rolling out in areas of England, Wales and Scotland.
The pathfinder exercise has shown that the IT system works. In parallel, the DWP is working with the new Government Digital Service to explore the possibility of enhancing the IT, using recent advances in technology to ensure the system is as secure, flexible and responsive as possible. This approach builds on the rapid development and roll-out of services such as GOV.UK and universal jobmatch, which was developed in one year and since launching in December 2012 is now achieving over 5 million average daily job searches.
The Government have made clear that the priority is to deliver universal credit safely and securely over a four-year period to 2017. We remain committed to that objective, to these time scales, and to the budget agreed for delivering this important reform.
The Government will set out more details of their development plan in the autumn.
Grand Committee
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes)
My Lords, before we begin, may I remind the Grand Committee of the usual arrangement? If there is a Division in the Chamber, we will adjourn this Committee for 10 minutes.
Road Safety (Financial Penalty Deposit) (Appropriate Amount) (Amendment) Order 2013
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Road Safety (Financial Penalty Deposit) (Appropriate Amount) (Amendment) Order 2013.
Relevant documents: 4th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, on 5 June we announced an increase to the financial levels of fixed-penalty notices for most motoring and road transport offences, including making careless driving a fixed-penalty notice offence, following consultation last year. These changes are being made under the negative resolution procedure, and both the Fixed Penalty (Amendment) Order and the Fixed Penalty Offences Order were laid before Parliament on 28 June. Today is about a parallel scheme—fixed penalty deposits—which are for those alleged offenders without a satisfactory UK address. The draft Road Safety (Financial Penalty Deposit) (Appropriate Amount) (Amendment) Order before us today will enable the levels of fixed-penalty deposits to be increased by the same amount as fixed penalties for motoring and other road transport offences, and will include careless driving as a fixed-penalty deposit.
Fixed-penalty notices are issued by police and Vehicle and Operator Services Agency—VOSA—officers. Regardless of whether an alleged offender has a valid UK address, they are issued with a fixed-penalty notice. Those alleged offenders without a satisfactory UK address are then required to pay a fixed-penalty deposit. The Road Safety (Financial Penalty Deposit) (Appropriate Amount) Order 2009 prescribes the amount of financial penalty deposit that may be requested by an officer. To mirror the increases that are being made to most motoring and road transport fixed penalties, deposit levels will be increased as follows: £30 will rise to £50, £60 will rise to £100, £120 will rise to £200 and £200 will rise to £300.
If the nature of the offences or the manner in which they are committed are considered too severe or too numerous for the offer of a fixed penalty, the offender will be summonsed to appear before a court but will be required to pay a financial penalty deposit against any court-imposed fine. The order before us today increases the minimum court penalty deposit amount from £300 to £500. It also increases the maximum appropriate amount in respect of any single occasion on which more than one financial penalty deposit requirement has been imposed from £900 to £1,500. VOSA statistics show that in 2012-13 more than 10,500 deposit notices were issued, with a payment rate of almost 100%.
The intention of the policy behind the order was that parking offences would not be covered, as these are not road safety-related. The Committee will be aware that legislation is often complex. It has become apparent today that the order before us may capture some parking-related offences for those alleged offenders without a satisfactory UK address only, and therefore increase the deposits payable for parking offences. Departmental lawyers are currently rechecking the draft order to determine whether there is anything else that may be outside the policy’s scope.
The Committee will be aware that the graduated deposit scheme is aimed mainly at foreign HGVs, which were more difficult to deal with before the previous Administration introduced a deposit scheme. The vast majority of HGVs are maximum-weight articulated vehicles moving between large depots. Parking offences are not often a problem. In the main, offences relate to road-worthiness, driver hours and overloading. Therefore, it is unlikely that any serious adverse effects will arise from this problem. If necessary, we will lay an amending order to correct the issue.
I would also point out that, for foreign cars that make an alleged parking offence, normal procedure is to attach a fixed-penalty notice to the vehicle, irrespective of where it comes from. I will write to update the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, the opposition Front-Bench spokesman, and all noble Lords who speak in this debate before moving any approval Motion in the Chamber.
The changes to fixed penalties follow up key commitments in the Government’s Strategic Framework for Road Safety—referred to hereafter as the framework—which was published in May 2011. The framework sets out a package of measures that would continue to reduce deaths and injuries on our roads. It also recognises the importance of targeted enforcement to tackle behaviour that represent a risk to road safety. The measures announced focus on making the enforcement process more efficient, ensuring that penalties are set at the right levels to avoid offences being perceived as trivial and inconsequential, and making educational training more widely available for low-level offending.
Today’s order supports the framework’s objectives by introducing careless or inconsiderate driving as a fixed-penalty deposit and increasing the amount an alleged road traffic offender must pay as a result. We know that careless drivers put lives at risk and are a major source of concern and irritation for law-abiding motorists. The police will now have the power to issue fixed-penalty notices for careless driving. This will allow them greater flexibility when dealing with less serious careless driving offences, such as driving too close or lane discipline—for example, staying in the wrong lane—as well as freeing them from resource-intensive court processes. Drivers will still be able to appeal any decision in court.
Fixed penalty levels have not increased since 2000. Therefore, their real value has fallen substantially, by about 25%. For example, if the £60 fixed-penalty notice level set in 2000 had increased in line with inflation, it would now be £80. Penalty levels are now lower than other penalty notice offences of a similar severity. For example, lower and higher-tier penalty notices for disorder offences, which were recently increased, are now £60 for leaving litter and £90 for being drunk and disorderly. Increasing fixed-penalty deposit levels will not only ensure broader consistency with other, similar penalty notices, it will also reflect the seriousness of these offences. In addition, setting the penalty at these levels will remove the need to review penalties in the longer term. I therefore commend the order to the Committee. I beg to move.
Lord Rosser
I thank the Minister for his explanation of the purpose and thinking behind the order we are considering. I understand from what he says that a hiccup may have been found that needs to be addressed, and I thank the Minister for pointing that out. I am not sure that I have entirely understood the order. No doubt my contribution will make it clear whether I have or not, and the Minister will put me right if I have incorrectly understood what it says and what it provides.
We know that the order provides for fixed-penalty deposits to be increased in line with the recent increase in fixed-penalty notices, to which the Minister referred. It also provides for a fixed-penalty deposit to be extended to less serious cases of careless and inconsiderate driving in the light of the decision that fixed-penalty notices can be issued for careless driving offences.
The Explanatory Memorandum states that the fixed-penalty deposit may be imposed by a police officer or a Vehicle and Operator Services Agency officer at the roadside on an alleged road traffic offender who does not have a satisfactory address in the UK. The purpose of this is to provide a guarantee of payment of a fixed-penalty notice or conditional offer in respect of an alleged offence.
The Minister has said that Vehicle and Operator Services Agency statistics show that more than 10,500 deposit notices were issued in 2012-13, with a payment rate of almost 100%. That suggests that if the individual who cannot give an acceptable address says that he or she cannot pay immediately, the vehicle is immediately impounded pending payment. However, perhaps the Minister could confirm that that is the case.
One would have assumed that most of the fixed-penalty deposits are, or will be, imposed by police officers rather than an officer of the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency. I say that in the context of the statement by the Minister in the Commons when this order was discussed there on 2 July, who said that the more than 10,500 deposit notices issued in 2012-13 were issued by VOSA officers with apparently none by police officers, which suggests that these notices related to commercial vehicles.
If that is the case, what happens in respect of private motorists who cannot pay—perhaps a private motorist stopped in the future in relation to a careless driving offence—when presumably it will be a police officer who will have stopped that motorist? If the motorist is unable to pay in circumstances where he or she cannot give a satisfactory address, does it mean that their vehicle will be impounded and they will be unable to drive it away, thus presumably maximising the prospects of 100% payment of the fixed-penalty deposit?
Who is in receipt of most fixed-penalty deposits? Presumably it is most likely to be foreign drivers or drivers with foreign addresses, but how many are issued to British nationals? In what circumstances, other than having no fixed abode, could a British national be deemed not to have given an acceptable address unless they are no longer resident in this country?
In the debate in the Commons, the Minister said that he would inform the Committee by letter of the absolute number of fines unpaid. I am not sure whether the Minister in the Commons was referring to fixed-penalty deposits, fixed-penalty notices or both but, whatever the case, does the noble Earl have those figures to give today and, if not, may I be advised of the answer in addition to the Commons Committee?
Finally, perhaps I may make a point about the extension of fixed penalties to careless driving cases. The Explanatory Memorandum shows the really quite dramatic fall that there has been in the number of careless driving proceedings in court over the past 10 years or so. I am not sure to what the decline can be attributed, although the Explanatory Memorandum suggests some possible explanations. However, I just hope that, with fixed penalties being introduced in relation to careless driving, a check will be kept to ensure that they are being used in only the least serious of such offences. There must be a temptation to use them in more serious cases in the light of the time savings involved and the paperwork that does not need to be completed and prepared, as it would have to be for a case going to court. I hope—indeed, I am sure—that the Minister will confirm that the necessary effective checks are in place. After all, the difference between careless driving causing a collision and injury and it not doing so can often be a matter of luck rather than the degree of carelessness in the driving. Certainly, from the Opposition, we have no objection to this order.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful for the positive response from noble Lords. As regards the hiccup, I will write to the noble Lord and the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, with full details of the impact and how we will cover it.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, talked about careless driving. Of course, careless driving is not necessarily a less serious offence. Some of the offences that we are already capturing under the graduated fixed penalty are less serious than careless driving. The issue is that we have brought careless driving into the fixed-penalty regime. I understand the noble Lord’s point about dealing with a more serious careless driving offence by means of a fixed penalty when it would be appropriate to take it to court. It is a matter for the police which way they go and I am sure that they will make the judgment correctly. However, I have details here about which would come out as less serious offences, able to be dealt with by means of a fixed penalty. I have no doubt that the more serious offences will continue to be taken to court. For instance, if a driver emerges from a junction incorrectly, he may pick up a fixed penalty but if he causes another motorist to take emergency avoiding action, his chances are that he will find himself in court.
Lord Rosser
I think the Minister said that the figure given for the almost 100% payment rate related to commercial vehicles, because it was VOSA people dealing with it. Presumably, from what he has said, fixed-penalty deposits already apply to private motorists, where they relate to a fixed-penalty offence and where they have not been able to give a satisfactory address. Has there also been nearly 100% payment in relation to private motorists where it is a police officer dealing with the matter, rather than a VOSA officer?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I think the noble Lord’s analysis is correct. It is mainly foreign heavy goods vehicles but no doubt private vehicles will be dealt with. When we drive on the continent as private motorists, we try as hard as we can to comply with the rules in, say, Germany and German drivers would try to comply as hard as they can with our rules. I suspect that the police apply the rules pragmatically.
Lord Rosser
What I am getting at is that, as I understand it, at the moment, if somebody is stopped for a speeding offence they may be given a fixed-penalty notice. I had asked whether there are any circumstances in which a British national might be deemed to be giving an unsatisfactory address, other than their having no fixed abode. However, let us suppose that it is a foreign driver. In a situation where that foreign driver is unable to give a satisfactory address, presumably at the moment they are given the fixed-penalty deposit because of that. Is there, equally, a successful payment rate of or near to 100%, as there is in relation to commercial vehicles?
Earl Attlee
I will check with the Home Office to find out more details for the noble Lord but I suspect that the answer is yes. That is because if the police determine that a motorist does not have a satisfactory UK address—in other words, if they come from overseas or are from the UK but cannot give a decent address, which for various reasons some people cannot—there is a vulnerability that they may not pay. So they would come into scope and that vehicle will be immobilised until the graduated fixed-penalty deposit is paid. I understand why the noble Lord is concerned and if I can give him any details about the success rate of private vehicles, I will provide them.
Highway and Railway (Nationally Significant Infrastructure Project) Order 2013
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Highway and Railway (Nationally Significant Infrastructure Project) Order 2013.
Relevant documents: 2nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, this order will substitute a new Section 22 to, and amend Section 25 of, the Planning Act 2008 to amend the criteria for highway and rail schemes to be considered nationally significant infrastructure projects. In addition, it introduces thresholds for the construction or alteration of highways on the strategic road network and rail schemes in England only.
The new Section 22, which deals with highway schemes, sets out thresholds based on the area taken up by the scheme, which are as follows. For schemes on motorways, the threshold will be 15 hectares. For schemes on highways other than motorways that have a speed limit of 50 miles per hour or above, the threshold will be 12.5 hectares. For schemes on all other highways, the threshold will be 7.5 hectares. These thresholds will include land on which the construction or alteration will take place and any adjoining land to be used in connection with the scheme.
The new Section 22 will also remove any alteration or construction of a highway from the development consent order regime where the Secretary of State for Transport is not the highway authority. In addition, certain highway schemes on the strategic road network that consist of the alteration of a highway are also removed, first, where the alteration is necessary as a result of a scheme that has already received planning permission; and secondly, where an alteration is necessary because of works by the local highway authority and for which an order has already been made. In both cases, the Secretary of State has to be requested to carry out the works. The new section also removes highway schemes where an earlier order has been made and which require a further order within seven years of the first order.
This order will also amend Section 25 to introduce a threshold so that any construction or alteration of a railway will come within the ambit of the Planning Act 2008 only where the construction or alteration of the railway track is not on operational land or on land acquired for the purpose of constructing or altering a railway and exceeds a continuous length of two kilometres. The order also includes transitional arrangements for existing development consent orders, and for applications for DCOs that have been submitted for determination prior to the coming into force of the order.
These amendments to the Planning Act 2008 are being proposed to ensure that only genuinely nationally significant infrastructure projects fall within the DCO regime. Currently, the Planning Act does not set any thresholds for nationally significant infrastructure highway or rail schemes, which means that any scheme, regardless of whether it is genuinely nationally significant, must comply with the DCO regime laid out in the 2008 Act.
The DCO regime is designed to speed up and improve the planning process for large or complex schemes that are of national significance. The process has already been used to good effect in delivering schemes that, due to their scale or complexity, may have become bogged down in the alternative planning systems. In these cases, the DCO is the most appropriate regime to use. However, some schemes—for example, a 500-metre sidings extension, the widening of a slip road or a small safety improvement scheme—are of only local importance and could not be considered to be nationally significant, yet are required to use the DCO regime. The necessary level of pre-application work and the requirement for an examination under the DCO regime, which is right for genuinely nationally significant schemes, would be disproportionate, and in some cases unnecessary, for smaller, less complex or more discrete schemes.
We have also identified that small schemes which would not have been nationally significant are being delayed or not taken forward. This is because the cost and time it takes to promote a DCO—in the order of 18 months—acts as a disincentive when looking to deliver schemes as part of an in-year based programme. Consequently, we sometimes have little choice but to adopt solutions which do not yield maximum benefit to road users, but which are far more readily deliverable.
During the recent national and local pinch point fund rounds, several schemes which would have benefited from using this funding to support growth were not considered because they would have been required to follow the DCO regime and the time taken to gain the order would have put them out of time for the fund. The proposed thresholds would allow the most proportionate regime to be used, and this would increase certainty that the most optimal schemes are being delivered, which would have a greater benefit for growth. The Planning Act, as currently worded, has also led to confusion about whether certain local schemes, because they have a purpose connected to the strategic road network, should be within the DCO regime. This has led to serious delays and added costs to developers while the wording in the Act is clarified. In a few cases the planning process had to be restarted leading to abortive work and cost.
By setting out in very clear terms that only those highway schemes for which the Secretary of State for Transport is or will be the highway authority, this confusion and potential avenues for delays to much needed growth are removed. Currently, in schemes that provide a development with access to the strategic road network, to mitigate the impacts of the development they are also required to use the DCO regime, even when those works already benefit from planning permission as part of the overall development consent. Under the DCO regime, promoters must submit full consultation and assessment documentation and undergo an examination even when they are uncontested. This can take up to 18 months for the whole process and can be undertaken only after the full development site application has been granted. Under the Highways Act, uncontested schemes that are part of the planning permission for a site and the required side road orders can be made without a hearing and without a charge, therefore making this regime quicker and less expensive. These mitigation works are needed to deliver new developments and, as such, any delay or cost increase affects delivery of new growth.
Local major schemes and schemes that are developer-funded would usually have already gone through public scrutiny via the examination in public of the local plan or through a full planning application process. Under the DCO regime, they would be required to undertake them again, adding further costs and delays to the scheme delivery. The proposed amendment would remove all local major schemes from the DCO regime and allow developers certainty to proceed through one regime under the Highways Act. There is still the option of using the DCO regime for a scheme that will now fall outside the development consent regime but which is none the less considered to be of national significance by the Secretary of State on application making a direction that the scheme is of national significance. This will then bring the scheme within the development consent regime. The position for railway developments under Section 25 of the 2008 Act has similarly resulted in schemes that would not ordinarily be considered nationally significant being required to obtain a DCO pursuant to the 2008 Act, and with similar consequences. As there is currently no threshold, any scheme for the construction or alteration of a railway that cannot progress using permitted development rights under the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 regime becomes a nationally significant infrastructure project and requires a development consent order, regardless of the size and scale of the scheme involved.
The proposed amendments to Section 25 of the Act will mean that railway construction or alteration schemes will require a DCO only if they include the laying of a stretch of railway track, whether single or multiple track, of more than two continuous kilometres on land that is not existing railway operational land. For these purposes, non-operational land would include any land acquired for the purposes of the scheme itself.
Because railways are by their nature generally long and linear, a distance-based threshold, as already applied to gas pipelines, for example, seems appropriate. Bearing in mind the scale and likely impacts of development, and mindful of the types of schemes that typically come forward, a two-kilometre threshold appears appropriate to ensure that only those schemes that have wider impact require authorisation by DCO. Smaller railway schemes and those on existing railway operational land will be able to proceed using the alternative planning procedures, reducing costs and enabling schemes to be delivered more quickly and with greater certainty.
The proposed amendment to Section 25 of the Act will ensure that only development that is justifiably regarded as nationally significant will be required to proceed under the 2008 Act regime. These amendments have been subject to a public consultation and were strongly supported by the respondents. I beg to move.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, this is another of those fairly formidable orders, certainly as far as volume is concerned. It is not always easy to understand fully, not what the point is, because I understand that, but what the argument is in favour of the order. Before I go any further, I will say that we are not opposing it, just in case the Minister gets the impression from some of my comments that we might be.
The purpose of the order, as the noble Earl said, is to make sure that only developments that can be considered to be nationally significant infrastructure projects have to be dealt with under the planning process set out in the Planning Act 2008. It does that by amending the circumstances in which projects are considered to be nationally significant, resulting in more projects proceeding instead under the planning regime set out in other legislation. The Explanatory Memorandum states that the amendments are being made with the intention of restricting the ambit of the Planning Act 2008. It states that the current provisions in respect of highway and railway developments mean,
“that developers have been faced with excessive burdens in order to deliver small, less complex or discrete but still important transport infrastructure improvements”.
I have read the Explanatory Memorandum, perhaps not as thoroughly as I might have done, but it appears rather stronger on statements about problems than on specific cases to help identify the problem that has currently arisen. The noble Earl’s comments about the problems of the present arrangements, which he just made, sounded quite dramatic. It would be helpful if he could provide more specific information about actual problems that have arisen to fill the gap that I believe is there so that that is on the record.
For example, how many schemes that have had to be dealt with under the Planning Act 2008 regime would not have had to be dealt with in that way if the terms of this order had been in force? What percentage of the total number of schemes dealt with under the Planning Act 2008 does that figure represent? I may not have read the Explanatory Memorandum as carefully as I should have done, and maybe the Minister will say to me that the information is in there, but at the moment I am not clear what the answer to that question is.
What additional costs have been incurred as a result of dealing with schemes under the Planning Act 2008 regime that it is now proposed are dealt with in future under the planning regime set out in the Highways Act 1980, the Transport and Works Act 1992 and the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 as appropriate? Once again, I have no feel for what these additional costs are.
The Minister made some reference to this in his speech, but how long does it take to deal with schemes under the Planning Act 2008 regime, which it is now proposed should be dealt with in future under the Acts to which I referred a moment ago, and how long will it take if they are dealt with under those Acts? What kind of saving are we talking about as far as time is concerned?
As I say, I hope that the Minister will be able to provide at least some of the information that I am seeking in order to give a better feel for what is involved regarding costs and delays, and what percentage of cases that currently come under the Planning Act 2008 would no longer do so if we made change in the order so that they were dealt with under the one or more of the three other Acts referred to. We need to have on record the information that has led to these changes being proposed, and to be satisfied that the case really stands up and is rather stronger than simply the desires of a few interested parties for whom the less troublesome the planning process is, the better. However, I reiterate that we are not opposed to the order, despite the impression that I might have given the Minister in my comments.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the argument in favour is to allow projects to go forward in accordance with the appropriate planning process. The noble Lord quite rightly asks me about actual problems. During my discussions with officials, I was clear with them that there are problems, and they privately admitted to me that they have adopted less than ideal solutions in order to avoid the DCO process. This is because when the 2008 Act was going through Parliament, to be honest, it was not fully appreciated what the adverse effects of the legislation would be. If Parliament had realised that it would not have quite the desired effect, we would not have done it but would have done precisely what these amending orders do.
The best that I can do is to write to the noble Lord with some good, specific examples of schemes that have gone ahead, unless inspiration arrives. Part of the problem is that some schemes simply never see the light of day because the DCO regime is just too difficult.
The noble Lord asked about the time length under the Planning Act versus the Highways Act. It is about nine months for the Highways Act process, including consultation, and about 18 months for the DCO process. As the noble Lord will appreciate, that can cause pretty serious problems. I beg to move.
Public Bodies (Abolition of BRB (Residuary) Limited) Order 2013
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Attlee
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Public Bodies (Abolition of BRB (Residuary) Limited) Order 2013.
Relevant documents: 3rd Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, 2nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, this order transfers the function of BRB (Residuary) Ltd and then abolishes it. A transfer scheme will also be created that will transfer property rights and liabilities to the Secretary of State for Transport, Network Rail, London and Continental Railways and the Rail Safety and Standards Board, and will come into effect at the same time as this order. I commend BRBR on the sterling job that it has done since it was created in 2001 to manage the rump of property and ill health claims left after rail privatisation. It has disposed of 90% of those properties, generating in excess of £400 million.
BRBR was incorporated as a wholly owned subsidiary of the British Railways Board to hold and manage the residual property rights and liabilities of the board following privatisation. It was always intended that BRBR would be wound up at the appropriate time and its ongoing functions, properties, rights and liabilities transferred to successor bodies. The Public Bodies Act 2011 is the only efficient and cost-effective means of divesting BRBR of its statutory functions, including the statutory liabilities that arose in the original 19th-century Acts authorising the construction of the railways. The draft order proposes to transfer the majority of BRBR’s statutory functions to the Secretary of State for Transport, with a small number to be transferred to Network Rail (Assets) Ltd.
As I said, a transfer scheme will also be made under Section 23 of the Public Bodies Act—the draft is attached to the explanatory document. This will transfer the property, rights and liabilities of BRBR to London and Continental Railways Ltd, Network Rail Infrastructure Ltd, the Rail Safety and Standards Board Ltd and the Secretary of State.
The abolition of BRBR is further evidence of this Government’s determination to increase efficiency, reduce unnecessary overheads and remove management layers wherever possible.
The Government carried out a targeted six-week consultation between May and July 2012. This sought the views of interested stakeholders on the abolition and consequential transfer of BRBR’s functions, properties, rights and liabilities to the various successor bodies. The majority of the respondents were supportive of the abolition. Where concerns were raised, they tended to be about specific aspects of the plans, rather than questioning the underlying rationale. In addition, the Department for Transport liaised closely with BRBR and the proposed successor bodies in relation to the consultation.
London and Continental Railways Ltd is a company with specific expertise in managing and developing property assets within a railways context, as can be seen from the HS1-led regeneration at Kings Cross and Stratford. LCR is wholly owned by the Secretary of State for Transport. The properties transferring to LCR include sites with development potential, or where there is a policy of promoting or maintaining rail use.
Network Rail Infrastructure Ltd is the company that carries on the business of acquiring, owning, managing and developing the rail network in Great Britain. The properties which will transfer are assets which are of significance to the railway industry; for example, the 13.5-mile high-speed test track at Old Dalby in the Midlands, which is used for testing rolling stock. The other assets transferring are those one would expect the rail infrastructure owner to own or manage, such as memorials to railway staff killed in the wars or in railway accidents, as well as properties and structures that correct anomalies that occurred during rail privatisation in the 1990s.
BRBR currently owns and holds the intellectual property rights in 300,000 drawings and 30,000 maintenance documents relating to traction and rolling stock built before 1996. These drawings and documents have no quantifiable value but are of importance to the rail industry. I notice the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, ready to pounce on that issue. The ownership of the intellectual property rights in these drawings and documents will transfer to the Rail Safety and Standards Board Ltd, which is a not-for-profit company owned and funded by major stakeholders in the rail industry.
Any property, rights and liabilities which do not specifically transfer to a successor body will transfer to the Secretary of State. This includes 3,400 structures, such as bridges, abutments, viaducts, tunnels, cuttings and retaining walls associated with disused railway lines. The responsibility to maintain these for ever stems from the original Acts of Parliament which authorised the construction of the railways in the 19th century. This is known as the burdensome estate.
The burdensome estate will be managed by the Highways Agency on behalf of the Secretary of State. It has the engineering expertise, so there will be no diminution in the maintenance of these structures. In addition, most of BRBR’s employees who currently manage the burdensome estate will transfer to the Highways Agency, maintaining continuity.
A senior representative of the Highways Agency will sit on the board of Railway Paths Ltd, which is a charitable company which purchased some 220 miles of disused track and structures in 1999 as part of the national cycle network. The Highways Agency representative on Railway Paths Ltd’s board will help replicate the existing close working relationship between BRBR and Railway Paths Ltd.
Waterloo International terminal, North Pole depot in west London and Temple Mills bus depot near Stratford will transfer to the Secretary of State. These properties are, or may become, of strategic importance to the rail network and have some development potential over the longer term. They will be managed on his behalf by London and Continental Railways.
The Secretary of State will manage the continuing settlement of ill health claims made by former British Rail staff. These primarily stem from medical conditions that do not arise until some time, often many years, after an individual’s employment has ceased, such as asbestosis and mesothelioma. Noble Lords will recall that the board did not just operate rail services, but also hotels and ferries. The claims experts currently handling the workload at BRBR will transfer to the Department for Transport.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, I intend to speak very briefly about this order. I agree completely with the Minister in his tribute to the work of the board of BRBR and its staff over the 12 years or so of its existence. The Minister may remember that I spoke about the inclusion of BRBR in the Committee stage of the Public Bodies Bill on 14 December 2010. The Minister has referred to how the British Railways Board (Residuary) has gone about fulfilling its responsibilities since 2001, and I agree with him that its record has been excellent in many respects. I have been particularly impressed by how it has dealt with the 6,400 or so industrial injury and other health claims from former BR employees, to which the Minister referred in his speech. I hope that these will continue to be dealt with as expeditiously in future as they have been by BRBR until now.
BRBR has also done really well in discharging its railway heritage responsibilities, and I thank the Minister for his reference to this issue in his speech. I speak as a former chairman of the Railway Heritage Committee and the current chair of its successor body, the Railway Heritage Designation Advisory Board, which as part of the Science Museum Group has taken on the RHC’s statutory powers of designation. This is partly thanks to the efforts of the Minister, who supported us in resisting its abolition under the Public Bodies Act 2011.
Very many significant railway artefacts have found their way to BRBR stores. The Minister referred to the drawings, which are literally priceless, but there are also some wonderful paintings from the railways’ art collection. Many of those are now on public display in museums and galleries all over the country as a result of, first, the statutory designation, and then the disposal procedures of the RHC and the co-operation of BRBR.
The other great contribution that BRBR has made in this area is in supporting the Railway Heritage Trust which, under the chairmanship of Sir William McAlpine, plays a huge part in restoring and preserving historic railway buildings. BRBR has been instrumental in securing third-party funding for the Railway Heritage Trust, particularly from Network Rail. In this context —I hope that the Minister will allow me to do this—I should like to put on record my own tribute to one of the unsung heroes of Britain’s railways, Peter Trewin, who is the legal and secretariat director of BRBR. He was also the secretary of the British Railways Board. He is a lifetime career railwayman, whom I knew first when he worked with Sir Peter Parker more than 30 years ago. He has played a crucial role in ensuring that the railway takes its heritage responsibilities seriously. I should like to thank him on the record for that work.
There is one further matter that I wish to raise with the Minister. He talked about burdensome estate— the structures that were once part of the operational railway—and that in the main these will be transferred to the Highways Agency. Can he give an assurance that this will not lead to roads being built on these remaining railway track beds? He will know from reading my recently published book that once the infrastructure has been built on, the opportunity to reopen railways on it is lost for ever. There are a number of heritage railways—I declare an interest as president of the HRA—that are looking at long-disused lines as future potential routes. We may also wish one day to restore some lines to the national network, as the demand for rail travel grows. That will not be possible if the infrastructure is converted into a road and we must not close down those options. I hope that the Minister will agree.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, I add my appreciation to that expressed by the Minister and my noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester for the work done by BRBR, and for the staff of that organisation. I thank the Minister for explaining the background to the order and the reasons for abolishing BRB (Residuary) Ltd, and transferring its functions to the Secretary of State for Transport and Network Rail (Assets) Ltd. The property rights and liabilities of BRBR will then be transferred to successor bodies in the transfer scheme, so I understand that it will be laid before Parliament after being made.
BRB (Residuary) Ltd is wholly owned by the British Railways Board. Perhaps the Minister can say what will happen to the BRB following the abolition of BRB (Residuary) Ltd, what functions and responsibilities it will continue to have, and for how long. The Explanatory Memorandum says that liability for handling claims in respect of industrial injuries, employment and environment-related claims, resulting from BRB activities as an operator of trains, ships and hotels, will transfer to the Secretary of State. Can the Minister give an undertaking that this will not result in a harder or a more long-drawn-out approach being adopted to such claims as a result of this transfer? How many claims are still in the pipeline and how many individuals do they cover?
I also support the request of my noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester that the assurance given in the Explanatory Memorandum that the abolition of BRB (Residuary) Ltd will not result in any change in the current process for releasing land designated for rail use, disposal, or for alternative non-transport use should be repeated by the Minister and thus placed on the record, including in the very specific terms that the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, was seeking.
The order deals with the abolition of one body. How many other bodies for which the Department for Transport has overall responsibility are still awaiting the outcome of a review of whether they should remain in existence or be abolished? A few weeks after we questioned whether taxpayers were getting value for money with four separate publicly funded motoring bodies, the Government announced that they were reducing the number of agencies from four to three. Is the department now looking at other issues concerning the number of bodies for which it is responsible, including whether we need even three separate government agencies delivering services to motorists, and whether we need a separate company to deliver HS2 when we already have Network Rail, which is responsible for rail infrastructure? In view of the fact that some rights and liabilities of BRB (Residuary) are being transferred to LCR, do the Government see a long-term future for London and Continental Railways Ltd and, if so, is that in its current role or a changed role?
We are certainly not opposed to the order and I hope that the noble Earl will be able to provide the answers and assurances that have been sought by my noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester and me.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Faulkner of Worcester and Lord Rosser, for their comments. It is right to pay tribute to the work of the BRBR. I did not take the Public Bodies Bill through the House; my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach did. As the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, said, I was acting behind the scenes in respect of the RHC and I am proud of what we achieved.
Both noble Lords talked about former employees of the railway industry with long-latency illnesses such as mesothelioma and asbestosis. I assure noble Lords that they will be properly looked after. The staff, including some of the legal staff, will transfer. I do not know the numbers but I suspect that, by and large, they arise when someone is, for example, diagnosed with mesothelioma and the case is handled. Those employees have the advantage that their former employer was BR or a railway company and they are backed up by the Government. Sadly, a lot of other people are not properly covered, and that is why we are taking the Mesothelioma Bill through your Lordships’ House.
The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, paid tribute to Peter Trewin, and I join him in that respect.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, talked about the transfer of some structures to the Highways Agency and the burdensome estate. There is no intention to build on those structures. The abolition of BRBR will not result in any change to the current process for releasing land designated for rail use for disposal or for alternative transport use. The current process requires BRBR to seek the approval of the Department for Transport before land retained for transport use can be sold.
To put things into perspective, BRBR has only 33 miles of former track bed, the breakdown of which is as follows: 8.5 miles is retained for access to structures within the burdensome estate; 22.5 miles is retained for possible transport use; and 2 miles is in the course of sale across the number of sites. Of those, 28.5 miles will transfer to the Secretary of State, 1.5 miles will transfer to LCR and 3 miles, mostly relating to Glazebrook to Partington, will transfer to Network Rail.
I was also asked about BRB and what happens to the board when BRBR is abolished, given that the current directors of the board will cease to be directors once BRBR is abolished. It may be helpful if I say a few words about this. The British Railways Board is a statutory corporation set up originally under the Transport Act 1962. It will continue to exist after BRBR is abolished, as it is one of the signatories to the rail usage contract. That contract is expressed to be made under French law and cannot be novated without the agreement of the other signatories to the contract, Eurotunnel and SNCF.
Since 2001, the board has had only two members. Previously, there had to be a chairman and between nine and 15 members. Its chairman, Terence Jenner, and its remaining director, Peter Trewin, are also directors of BRBR and they will both cease to be its chairman and director when BRBR is abolished.
The Secretary of State has the power under Section 241(3) of the Transport Act 2000 to remove a member of the board from office or to vary his terms of appointment. Replacement members of the board, including a replacement chairman, will be appointed by the Secretary of State under Section 1 of the Transport Act 1962.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about the future of LCR. The best way of dealing with that would be if I write to him.
Renewable Heat Incentive Scheme (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2013
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Baroness Verma
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Renewable Heat Incentive Scheme (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2013.
Relevant documents: 4th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Baroness Verma)
My Lords, I am pleased to open the debate on the Renewable Heat Incentive Scheme (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2013. Before focusing on the detail of these amendments, I will take the time to provide some background on the renewable heat incentive scheme, or RHI.
The scheme was introduced to improve our approach to using energy in the UK. Since the scheme launch in November 2011, more than 2,200 applications have been received to date, with around £27 million-worth of RHI payments expected to be paid out in 2012-13. By this time next year, we expect to have paid out more than £53.8 million through the non-domestic RHI, and 280 gigawatt hours of reported renewable heat have been produced through the RHI to date.
The recent spending review has reinforced our commitment to long-term support for renewable heat. The agreed budget for 2015-16 of £430 million enables us to continue to work to stimulate and achieve ambitious growth of renewable heat and, in turn, to create new jobs in the green sector.
The UK is legally bound to achieve a set 2020 renewables target of 15%, with interim targets between now and 2020. Our most recent interim target is to reach 4.04% of total energy from renewables as an average across 2011-12. Today’s statistics show that we achieved 3.94% across those years, short by just 0.1%, but within the margin of error for a statistical estimate. This means that we are currently on track for our 2020 target, but we must continue our work to ensure that this remains the case.
Heat is the single biggest use of energy. We use more energy for heating than for either transport or the generation of electricity. Therefore, it plays an important role in the UK being able to achieve this target. At the point of opening the RHI scheme, renewables produced less than 2% of our total demand. We are aiming for this to increase to 12%. In addition to achieving the renewables targets, the RHI will help to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, providing a platform on which to build towards eliminating greenhouse gas emissions from our buildings by 2050.
Ofgem administers the scheme and provides financial, tariff-based support for commercial, public sector, industrial and community renewable heating installations for the 20-year life of their tariff. The scheme has already provided financial support to a range of technologies, including biomass, solar thermal, heat pumps and biogas combustion. Applicants to the scheme are also spread across various sections of the non-domestic sector—small businesses, and public sector and community projects. The uptake of renewables is increasing but needs to be increased further for us to achieve our 2020 targets.
As with all taxpayer-funded schemes, all expenditure must be justified and provide good value for money. I should like to take a moment to reflect on the last time that I spoke to your Lordships about the RHI, which was back in March.
We discussed the introduction of a budget management system for the RHI. Following the March debates, in April, the degression-based approach to managing the RHI was introduced. This mechanism ensures that the RHI does not overspend while providing clarity and assurance to the industry about how the budget will be managed. Since those debates, we have seen the first degression take place, against medium biomass.
Medium biomass has deployed to the level that a trigger point has been met, which resulted in a 5% tariff reduction. Gradual deployment-led managed decreases like this will allow us to direct deployment so that we achieve an affordable, good mix of technologies in the scheme and ensure value for money in tariffs paid. It is important that we continue to evaluate the RHI scheme so that we ensure that it is incentivising uptake while ensuring value for money.
Before moving on to the main topic of today’s session, I will update the Committee on wider change and additions to the RHI. These regulations form part of an ambitious and busy schedule for renewable heating policy. The importance of low carbon and renewable heat in the long-term energy mix for the UK, and the “world first” nature of RHI, necessitates an ongoing programme of improvements, expansions and enhancements. For instance, the Government expect to be announcing the details of a domestic RHI very soon. We have also just concluded, on 28 June, an early tariff review consultation for the non-domestic scheme, proposing revised tariff levels for technologies where we have not yet seen the levels of deployment that we need. Initial feedback from industry is positive, and we are really pleased with the level of response to the consultation. We will analyse the consultation responses and further develop the policy before announcing our decisions in the autumn.
We are not only focusing on improving the existing scheme; we are also working on introducing support for other exciting renewable heating technologies through RHI. Our consultation last September made proposals for the introduction of support for air source heat pumps, large-scale biogas combustion, biomass direct air and expansions in the forms of waste that are eligible for the scheme. We also consulted on introducing new specific support for deep geothermal heat and for biomass and bioliquid combined heat and power. We are now considering whether we need to adjust any of our plans as a result of the spending review announcement on 26 June, and will publish an update on progress on the extensions to the non-domestic scheme and tariff review alongside our announcement of the domestic policy.
The regulations before us bring in a number of amendments delivering several distinct and wide-ranging changes, protecting the quality of the air that we breathe through the introduction of emissions limits for new biomass installations supported through the scheme; increasing the uptake of renewable heat by reducing the burden associated with metering; extending the scheme to commercial drying and cleaning, which takes place outdoors; and allowing the relocation of accredited installations. We are also using this opportunity to provide greater clarity to some areas of the regulations. It is our intention that these regulations will be made on 23 September, coming into force on 24 September.
The amendments in these regulations are predominantly based on the outcomes of the RHI Providing Certainty, Improving Performance consultation published in July last year. This consultation attracted 100 responses, and the final policy outcome was published in the Government’s response on 27 February this year. We proposed a method of demonstrating compliance with the air quality emissions limits announced in March 2011. More than 70% of respondents supported the proposals, and therefore the compliance regime detailed in these regulations remains very similar to the consultation proposals.
The simplification of metering requirements involved a number of proposals. These were aimed at reducing the number of heat meters required and driving down the cost of participating in the RHI, while protecting the public purse by ensuring that only eligible heat is paid for. More than 90% of respondents were in support of our proposed changes. Following this high level of support, we have moved to revise the RHI metering requirements, with the resulting requirements being very similar to our original proposals.
In addition to these headline changes, four smaller scheme improvements are included in these regulations and have been made with the intention of increasing uptake to the scheme. Two improvements were included in the July consultation: relocation of an installation and allowing certain processes to occur outside. Both were supported by those respondents who commented on them. These regulations will make it possible for an RHI accredited installation to be relocated and to continue to receive tariff payments for the remainder of the 20 years, provided that, on relocation, the system meets the necessary requirements. It will also be possible to receive RHI payments for commercial cleaning and drying processes that occur outside. Both these changes were supported by those respondents who commented on the proposed amendments.
Finally, two further amendments to the scheme were included to provide clarity to the regulations. The first is the addition of ground water as an eligible heat source for ground source heat pumps. The second is a minor word change to allow renewable installations that are used as the assessment installation—for an installer to join the microgeneration certification scheme —to be eligible for the RHI.
As these amendments show, the performance of the RHI is constantly under review. The need to increase uptake of renewables through this scheme is paramount to achieving our 2020 renewables target. Improvements to the scheme are focused on increasing uptake while still ensuring best value for money.
As I am sure the Committee will agree, good air quality is vital to our health, and it is essential that the RHI scheme does not have a negative impact on our environment. Since the announcement of the scheme in March 2011, we have made it clear that we are committed to introducing air-quality emissions limits for solid biomass boilers. The main pollutants which can be increased through increased combustion of biomass are particulate matter and oxides of nitrogen.
Currently, combustion of biomass contributes only a very small proportion of these harmful emissions. However, to date, biomass has made up a significant proportion of RHI accredited installations, and we expect this to continue. Where biomass replaces either heating oil or coal, there is no increase in the emissions levels of key air-quality pollutants. However, when replacing gas or electricity, the emissions are higher, meaning that it is important to limit the air-quality implications of burning biomass. The emissions levels to be introduced for biomass boilers producing heat from solid biomass are set at 30 grams per gigajoule of thermal heat input for particulate matter and at 150 grams per gigajoule for oxides of nitrogen.
New participants will be required to demonstrate that they meet the emissions limits by providing emissions certificates to Ofgem. These certificates will be provided to participants by the manufacturers of biomass boilers. When producing the certificates, manufacturers will be required to test their boilers and to show clearly through the certificate what types of biomass fuel their boiler can combust without exceeding the emissions limits. Participants will not be permitted to use types of biomass fuel that are not listed as being compatible with their boiler on their emissions certificate, and they will be required to demonstrate to Ofgem that they are meeting this requirement.
We are keen that that does not prove to be overly burdensome for manufacturers of boilers and we are therefore introducing flexibility through type-testing. This will mean that, when there is a “family” of boiler models which are identical apart from their capacity, only a limited number of them will need to be tested. Also, plants which have had to obtain an environmental permit will not be expected to provide an additional emissions certificate.
Lord Teverson
My Lords, I always find on these occasions that it is a great motivation to speak to a crowded House. I congratulate the Minister on her mastery of the subject. I did not even see her grasp for her water once, which is a tremendous start to the debate. I now understand the context of drying and cleaning. I could not quite work that out; I was thinking of washing machines, but it was clearly nothing to do with that.
This is a serious subject. As my noble friend said and as the Explanatory Memorandum sets out so well, heat is an important part of our energy usage in this country. It is an important part of decarbonising our energy requirements and meeting our 15% target by 2020. Starkly, as the Explanatory Memorandum says, we are now at something like 2% and we need to get that up to 12%. That is a big ask over the next few years and therefore I very much welcome this instrument.
There are bits of the regulations that I particularly like. One is the emphasis on air quality, which is really important in terms of solid biomass, and another is the flexibility that it gives to ensure that the scheme will be much more user-friendly than it is at the moment. The consultation showed that some of the metering requirements were difficult, and I congratulate the Government on taking that on board and trying to fix it in a very practical way. I shall come back to a couple of issues on that but, as I say, the air quality side is important as well. In my modest house I have two wood burners, and if the wind is in the wrong direction the air quality in my house is pretty bad with the solid biomass of the logs. However, that is not quite what this statutory instrument is about.
I wanted to ask the Minister about the domestic RHI but she has more or less answered that. I hope that the urgency on that continues because, apart from anything else, there has been a stalling of that industry in terms of waiting for the scheme to come along. It is very important to make sure that it starts now.
Coming back to the regulations and the Minister’s speech, she said that certain of these technologies have not met their potential with the RHI so far. What are those technologies? I particularly welcome deep geothermal technology as one of the things that the Government are starting to look at in terms of future moves on these schemes. That is excellent.
I should like to ask a question about Regulation 23. It refers to new Regulation 42A(3)(a), which states that,
“each length of piping which is 10 metres or less and situated outside a building is properly insulated”.
Although this document has technical depth, it says that the piping must be “properly insulated”, and we see that that is key when reading the document all the way through. I am surprised that there is not more of a specification there. I presume that there is an industrial definition of “properly insulated” but, to monitor and control the process, it would seem to be important to have a specification relating to the insulation. It is a term that I would like to understand.
When equipment is moved—again, I welcome this as part of the flexibility—does it have to be recertified or does it have so-called grandfather rights in its new situation?
My last question is on the impact. Paragraph 10.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum talks about air quality limits and states clearly that they will affect only people who are investing in the scheme. Does that mean that the air quality standards for an RHI installation are different from those for boilers otherwise—or are there air quality standards for these boilers otherwise? I should be very interested to understand whether there is a differentiation here and, if so, why, and how we move forward on that—or perhaps I have misread or misinterpreted that.
I am delighted to say that I have just completed a solar thermal installation on my house—at my own expense, obviously, as there is not a domestic RHI. I got it there just in time for the wonderful sunshine that we are having at the moment, and I am really enjoying free hot water. The more that British industry can do this, the better.
Lord Grantchester
I thank the Minister for her extensive introduction to the regulations. The RHI, launched in November 2011, is a key financial scheme focused on encouraging climate change mitigation and is especially relevant to off-grid businesses in rural areas which are dependent on heating oils.
On all sides of the House, renewable heat is recognised as an essential component of the UK’s long-term energy mix. In a debate on the order in the other place yesterday, the Minister there gave details regarding uptake of the scheme, which is very encouraging—indeed, the Minister here has mentioned some of those figures today.
However, I am concerned about the application of the degression system, whereby tariffs are reduced if one or other or both of two thresholds of expenditure are reached—namely, a technology-specific trigger where an imbalance in take-up between technologies occurs and a total trigger that puts an overall cap on spending. While I am not critical of there being an overall total trigger, I am nevertheless concerned that the total may be set rather low, and therefore I am concerned about its effect on applications. If, as of 1 June this year, a scheme payout to date of £13 million has resulted—as the Minister in the other place said yesterday and the noble Baroness has repeated here today—the degression system is already in action.
I am concerned that a tariff reduction of 5% at this early stage will discourage schemes coming forward. The Minister in the other place went on to say that £53.8 million is expected to be spent by this time next year. Will this result in further tariff reductions and does this total include the effect of degression? When an application is made under the scheme, when is it known at what level the tariff will be paid? While it is not specifically relevant to the regulations, it is nevertheless important to understand how the scheme has worked to date and how details of the degression payments are published in real time to applicants. Will the payment level be set at the time of an application and thereby not be affected by later uptake by further applicants?
The developments in the RHI that the Minister has outlined today are entirely to be welcomed. Meeting renewable energy targets should not come at the price of increased risks to public health or the environment. Several key outputs will be achieved. First, air quality will be protected through the introduction of emission limits for new biomass installations supported through the scheme. Secondly, the number of excessive, burdensome compliance requirements will be reduced, thereby increasing take-up; for example, by reducing the burdens associated with metering.
Thirdly, the relocation of accredited installations will be permitted, thereby allowing asset values to be maintained and the economic life of assets to be extended. The Explanatory Memorandum is commendable in its assessments, judging that the total resource cost increase will amount to about 8% over the lifetime of the policy, that additional testing and certification costs are likely to be largely immaterial and that Ofgem’s administrative costs be limited to 0.5% of total costs. Against this, the benefits are estimated to outweigh costs by the commendable margin of eight to one.
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Teverson and the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for their warm welcome to the regulations. I am also grateful for the quality, rather than the quantity, of the debate. In this House, the one thing that we do well is contribute with quality. A number of questions have been asked and I will try to go through them as much as I can. If there are any questions that I fail to answer today, I will undertake to write after reading Hansard.
My noble friend Lord Teverson asked what “properly insulated” means. I am advised that it means that it is a section of external piping that does not exceed the maximum permissible heat loss outlined in British Standard 5422. I am sure that means a lot more to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, than it does to me. “Properly insulated” is defined in Regulation 3 of these regulations.
My noble friend also asked about relocation. I think that I referred to that in my opening remarks. However, I am quite happy to repeat myself if the noble Lord wishes me to. Basically, if any plant is relocated the participant will be entitled to the remainder of the existing tariff for the remainder of the tariff lifetime. The plant does not have to meet air quality requirements, for example, as it is not a new accreditation, provided that the original accreditation is provided.
My noble friend also asked whether air quality emissions limits will apply only to future installations. The RHI emissions limits in these regulations are more stringent than those that apply to the highest-emitting boilers currently in the market. As a result, we will be encouraging the use of lower-emitting boilers.
On the question of which technologies have not met their potential, the currently supported technologies that have been subject to the tariff review are large biomass—that is, with a capacity of over 1 megawatt—ground source heat pumps and solar thermal.
The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked why we were using degression so early in the process. The deployment of medium biomass has exceeded the rate that we had expected when the tariff was originally set, which suggests that the tariff is higher than is necessary to incentivise installers. Therefore, we may be overcompensating further installations if we do not adjust our tariffs downwards. Although we encourage biomass through its size, we do not want to support one type of technology in particular when there are other technologies out there that may do as well and provide equal value for money—and it is value for money that we are really keen to get. I hope that that has answered the noble Lord’s question.
Lord Grantchester
I am listening very carefully to the noble Baroness. Following the wise words of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, my concern is that it is quite a big ask to reach our limits by 2020. I am concerned that, if the degression totals are set too soon and too early, we may choke off from coming forward those who could potentially help to meet these quite stringent targets.
Baroness Verma
The difficulty is achieving a balance between value for money and ensuring that we meet our targets. However, as I said, I think that we are managing to provide some encouragement and there is a great deal of interest. What we do not want is for one energy source to have an unnecessary advantage over another.
My noble friend Lord Teverson asked about the limits on boilers outside the RHI scheme. There are no emission limits for boilers outside the scheme but other measures may apply—for example, where environmental permits are required or where a boiler is within a smoke-controlled area under the Clean Air Act.
The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked some other questions but I may have to respond to him in writing because I am finding it slightly difficult to read the responses. However, I shall finish with a response that I can read concerning a question from the noble Lords, Lord Teverson and Lord Grantchester, on the urgency of the domestic scheme. Details of the domestic scheme will be announced before the Recess—that is, in a matter of a few days rather than months.
I hope that, on that note, noble Lords will support these regulations and I commend them to the Committee.
Alternative Investment Fund Managers Regulations 2013
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Newby
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Alternative Investment Fund Managers Regulations 2013.
Relevant documents: 4th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
Lord Newby
My Lords, these regulations implement the alternative investment fund managers directive, taking into account the European venture capital fund regulation and the European social entrepreneurship regulation. Member states are required to transpose the directive by 22 July this year.
The directive creates a new regulatory framework and a passport to market funds across the EEA for managers of investment funds that are not already authorised under the undertakings for collective investment in transferable securities, or UCITS, directive. The regulations also create an optional lighter framework for smaller managers of venture capital and social investment funds, including a marketing passport.
The investment management industry is one of the UK’s success stories. It serves millions of customers all around the globe and forms a key part of the UK’s financial sector, managing £4.9 trillion of funds and earning an estimated £12 billion a year for the UK economy. Around one-third of European assets under management are managed out of the UK and the industry is a significant provider of high value-added jobs and skills, with clusters of expertise in London and Scotland and across many UK regions.
Because of the importance of this sector to the country, sensible and proportionate application of the requirements of the directive is vital to safeguarding its future. Therefore, we have consulted extensively with industry and other stakeholders while developing these regulations. As well as setting up face-to-face meetings with a range of trade associations and individual firms, we published a discussion paper and two consultation papers. We received 27 responses to the main consultation paper. Jointly with the Financial Conduct Authority we also set up an open forum event, which was attended by more than 300 stakeholders. The regulations have been developed in line with the feedback that we received, and the asset management sector has been very supportive of our overall approach to their introduction.
We have made full use of the flexibility provided by the directive to ensure that our industry has as reasonable a timetable of transition to the new regime as possible. UK firms must therefore be authorised or registered in accordance with the directive before 22 July next year. A firm will need to comply with the relevant directive requirements by the time that its authorisation or registration is approved. The full scope of the directive applies to firms managing cumulative assets with a value in excess of the threshold of €500 million, or €100 million if they are leveraged—that is, if they have used debt to supplement investment. Other firms may also opt in to the full scope of the directive if they choose.
The directive prescribes uniform regulatory standards for fully AIFMD-authorised firms, in particular a requirement to appoint a depositary, new rules on delegation, disclosure of leverage to investors, liquidity management standards, common standards on valuing fund assets and restrictions on asset-stripping for private equity firms. In exchange, fully authorised firms will be able to benefit from a marketing passport. This will allow them to market the funds that they manage across the EEA, based on a single authorisation with the Financial Conduct Authority.
There is little discretion for individual member states on exactly how they implement these requirements. However, we are working closely with the FCA to ensure that these new rules are applied in a pragmatic and proportionate manner. We will not add any new regulatory requirements to firms below the threshold, with the exception of a few minor obligations imposed by the directive.
Implementation of the directive will represent a significant shift in the way that the European alternative investment fund management sector operates, and it is likely to increase operational costs for many firms. We have therefore explored every opportunity to minimise the negative impacts on UK firms. In addition to the 12-month transitional period to which I have already referred, we have made a number of policy decisions, including the use of available derogations to keep these impacts down. Also, we have not applied any gold-plating in our implementation of the directive. No directive requirements above the minimum required for implementation will be applied to UK firms and no other new requirements are being introduced.
Our regulations are also designed to ensure that UK investors continue to have access to funds in other jurisdictions, so that EEA and third-country managers seeking to market here will benefit from a similar transitional period to UK firms. EEA managers who cannot make use of the marketing passport will be able to market to UK retail investors on the same terms as a UK firm would, provided that the fund has been recognised as providing sufficient investor protection.
Third-country managers will be able to market to UK investors once they have completed a simple notification process with the Financial Conduct Authority. They will also cease to have to comply with the reporting requirements imposed by the directive as soon as there are no longer any UK investors invested in their fund. Again, this overall approach to non-UK firms follows the strategy of replicating the status quo of marketing arrangements as closely as possible within the framework of AIFMD.
Although the directive has not been without controversy in the industry, I hope that I have been able to reassure the Committee that the Government have worked closely with the sector to ensure that we have taken the most sensible approach possible to the implementation of the regulations. I am confident that the regulations will help to ensure an appropriate balance between protecting the interests of investors and promoting and safeguarding an important and successful UK industry.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I am delighted to have the Floor. I cannot think of anything more exciting than to discuss this SI with the Minister. It looks as though only the two of us will participate in this absolutely fascinating debate.
Of course, we agree with the broad terms of the SI. After all, the origins of the directive were derived several years ago from a position that we largely endorsed in government. The Minister will appreciate that we very much agree that supervision and control should be robust and effective, and we expect the Financial Conduct Authority to fulfil that function. The SI indicates the need of this important part of our investment and service economy to have the opportunity to seek custom right across the European Community.
The Minister may nod his head enthusiastically, because I know his views on the European position, but I notice a dearth of Conservative support in the Committee on this issue. On issues such as this, in the absence of some of those noble Lords who, like their colleagues on the Conservative Benches in the Commons, always smell a rat in anything to do with the European Community, one always worries whether any such indication exists as far as this SI is concerned. Certainly, our side supports it.
The Minister identified the issue of costs, which, it is clear from the documentation, are not negligible. However, I ask the Minister to come clean on something that I do not think occurred in the other place. When this SI was being considered and the consultation had taken place with the industry, how is it that the Government, with extraordinarily adroit timing, also included in the Finance Bill £150 million of tax cuts to the industry? In this a case once again of the Government, with their well-known friends in the City and conscious that some costs are involved—I am not underestimating the costs—thinking that some softening of the impact must be made by other aspects of government policy?
All I can say is that I do not agree with that. I am not at all convinced about the necessity for that. After all, as the Minister was at pains to point out, and as was also made clear in the other place, there are considerable benefits from what the noble Lord referred to quite clearly as a passport for effective operation in Europe. That is not a negligible thing. Ordinary citizens pay for a passport when they have the right to go abroad, so I am not clear why the costs appear to have been partially defrayed by the Government acting in another legislative capacity to moderate costs for the industry with the tax concessions that they have made. After all, it is not as if the industry has not for some time been quite adroit at lobbying on this issue—with considerable effect, I might add.
I apologise if I am a little slow in understanding the position but perhaps the Minister can spell it out. I understand entirely the €500 million threshold on activity and the €100 million base, but I take it that those who fall below that threshold yet are in this category of activity are subject to some regulation from the Financial Conduct Authority. I was not quite sure whether the Minister had spelt that point out. I apologise to him in advance if he did and I merely missed it.
We endorse this SI and hope that it will bring to the industry the opportunities of using the passport for effective operation in Europe. I have one last question. The Minister referred to the date by which we were obliged to comply. What are the prospects of the other 27 states complying with that timetable? He says, “Well, we haven’t gold-plated this particular SI”. No, but fair is fair and a level playing field must exist across Europe. We therefore want some assurance that other actors on the European scene will meet the same obligations with the same degree of scrutiny and control as is to be applied in the United Kingdom.
Lord Newby
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention. Since he referred to the timing of this debate, I must apologise that we have chosen to have it on a particularly exciting afternoon in the first test. Australia were 19 for two when I last heard.
Lord Davies of Oldham
That is almost the best news that the Minister has ever presented to me in any Committee, or in the House.
Lord Newby
I do not want to dampen the mood but the noble Lord will know the score at which England were all out, so I am pleased to have been able to assist him marginally.
Regarding the noble Lord’s questions, he raised the point about whether the decision in the Budget to abolish Schedule 19 stamp duty reserve tax was a sop to the industry that was being hit by this directive, to which the answer is no. It is not, if for no other reason than that the firms covered by this directive were not bearing the stamp duty. This directive covers hedge funds and private equity, which were not paying the stamp duty reserve tax in the first place, so that is not the case. The reason for abolishing that relatively modest bit of stamp duty was that we were undertaking a package of reforms designed to enhance the competitiveness of the funds industry, and to help secure our status as the global asset management centre. The scope within the EU to expand that kind of activity of fund management is considerable, in our view, and we do not want to constrain it by unnecessary burdens of any sort.
The noble Lord asked about the state of play in terms of the implementation of the directive elsewhere. We are aware that Austria, Bulgaria, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Romania, Slovakia and Sweden have stated that they will implement the directive by the deadline. The majority of those member states now have relevant legislation being considered by their parliaments. I am afraid that I cannot give the noble Lord any information on the state of implementation in Belgium, Estonia, Greece, Hungary, Lithuania, Poland, Portugal, Slovenia or Spain. However, as far as we are aware, there is no reason to believe that any of those jurisdictions will miss the deadline.
The noble Lord asked whether sub-threshold managers are authorised by the FCA. Yes, they are. All sub-threshold managers will be subject to at least the same regulatory standards and oversight by the FCA as they are now, so they are not unregulated. I hope that I have answered the questions posed by noble Lords and, on that basis, commend the regulations to the Committee.
Coroners and Justice Act 2009 (Consequential Provisions) Order 2013
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord McNally
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 (Consequential Provisions) Order 2013.
Relevant documents: 2nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, the order amends two key provisions in the Coroners Act 1988. The first is Section 4A(8), which governs the jurisdiction of coroners in Wales. The second is Section 13, which allows applications to be made to the High Court by, or under the authority of, the Attorney-General, for an inquest, or fresh inquest, to be ordered. These provisions of the Coroners Act 1988 will not be repealed when the bulk of Part 1 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 is implemented later this month. The purpose of the draft order is simply to amend the terminology of these provisions to make them consistent with the Coroners and Justice Act 2009.
Part 1 of the 2009 Act contains a number of important reforms to the coroner system. It creates the new post of chief coroner, the new judicial head of the system, and makes a number of changes that will help to speed up the inquest process, improve consistency between coroner areas and drive up standards.
Part 1 of the 2009 Act also introduces new terminology, including new titles for coroners and the areas they are appointed to. It also introduces the new concept of an “investigation” into a death, of which the inquest will form part. Under the 2009 Act, the coroner or jury will make “determinations and findings” at the end of an inquest rather than reaching a “verdict” and making an “inquisition”.
Following a consultation exercise earlier this year, we intend to commence the majority of the 2009 Act provisions, and new coroners’ rules and regulations, on 25 July. When we implement the 2009 Act, we will repeal the 1988 Act but with two important exceptions. The first exception relates to the deployment of coroners in Wales. Section 4A(8) of the Coroners Act 1988 provides that a coroner appointed to a district in Wales is to be considered a coroner for the whole of Wales. This gives additional flexibility in the deployment of resources in Wales. It means that a coroner with specialist skills can temporarily act outside his or her own district without having to be appointed as a coroner in the other district. This is particularly useful for urgent matters which may arise, such as the need to request a post-mortem examination or to facilitate organ donation. The draft order, therefore, updates the language of Section 4A(8) to make it consistent with the 2009 Act. It does this by changing the word “coroner” to “senior coroner” and “coroner’s district” to “coroner area”. We will repeal the rest of Section 4A.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
I am very grateful to the Government for this order, and I am glad to speak to it today. I thank the Government for the way in which this is happening because there has been a gentle transition that aims to enhance the experience of the public. When they are bereaved, people are incredibly vulnerable but there will now be a process that is kinder to them. If an investigation is required it can be conducted. If the investigation shows that it was a natural death, the coroner can simply register the death and the family will be spared the court process if it is not necessary. If, however, a hearing is required, the family will get an inquest and they will have the hearing that they may seek. That means that it meets the needs and expectations of the bereaved. I hope that having a process that is much clearer in its stages will also help with that group of deaths that are deaths by suicide. It has been particularly difficult even to ascertain the data on how many such deaths occur because of how they are often recorded. The term “verdict” is used, which is often seen as suggesting that there was some kind of criminal intent behind the suicide, when death by suicide is a very tragic event for everyone left behind.
This transition should also raise the overall standard of the experience of families from lower standards to the standards of the better and best. I have discussed the order with coroners, and there is an expectation that it will achieve what we have all wanted, which is to drive up the overall standard. I hope that the Government will encourage the chief coroner to have the courage to put pressure on those coroners that people have been concerned about.
My final point is to welcome the flexibility for Wales. We will have new transplant legislation before us in Wales fairly soon, and it will be particularly important that at all times of the day or night the coroner can be contacted in relation to organ retrieval. Having the ability to provide cross-cover should mean that we will have the service that is needed and that the coroners themselves will have a working life and home life that are compatible with enjoying living in Wales, rather than being exhausted. I am grateful to the Government.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I have some second-hand acquaintance with the coroner system because I was articled to a coroner and subsequently became his partner. He was a part-time coroner in the north-east of England. I cannot resist the temptation—I rarely do—to recount a couple of incidents from that time. The first was the remarkable theory constructed by the coroner’s officer, who is a police officer attached to the coroner’s office, about a chap who was found drowned in the bath. The officer came up with the wonderful theory that this man had committed suicide by deliberately banging himself on the back of the head so that he would become unconscious and drown in the bath. My principal was not entirely convinced by this theory, and accidental death was recorded instead. On another occasion he had to show a bereaved widow the body of her husband for identification purposes. The body was produced from the cabinet and uncovered, and she acknowledged that this was indeed her husband. She turned to go away and my partner, as he then was, began to put the drawer back into the cupboard, but then she said, “Do you mind, Mr Henderson, if I have another look?”. “Oh yes, my dear”, he said, and pulled the thing out again and uncovered it. She looked down at her husband and said, “Well, there you are”—I will not repeat the expletives—“may you rot in hell”. So a coroner’s life can be quite an interesting one.
With regard to the order, my honourable friend Robert Flello raised a couple of points in the other place. The first was to regret the fact that it did indeed take something of a struggle to persuade the Government to retain the office of chief coroner. However, they did that, and I join the noble Baroness in commending that and, up to a point, the changes before us today. She and the Minister are right to refer to the continued availability of Section 13 of the 1988 Act and the possible process of obtaining an order from the Attorney-General. However, that is by no means a simple procedure; rather, it is convoluted and, given that the noble Baroness has reminded us of the state of mind of bereaved families, it is one that is difficult to pursue.
The point is that in the 2009 Act there was provision for an appeals procedure. My honourable friend asserted, and I agree with him, that it would have been better to have retained or implemented that provision, particularly as the alternative to the Attorney-General procedure, cumbersome and protracted as it is, will now be only to rely upon judicial review. Judicial review, of course, poses a question of cost and of course will largely be out of scope of legal aid. It will be yet another difficult process for someone, particularly in the circumstances of bereavement, to negotiate, both practically and emotionally. It is unsatisfactory that the Government have not retained—or, rather, implemented—that provision for an appeals process, and are leaving the potential applicant with an unsatisfactory choice between the Attorney-General process and JR, the access to which is highly questionable .
In replying to my noble friend, the Minister, Mrs Grant, said simply:
“The right answer is to raise standards”.—[Official Report, Commons, Sixth Delegated Legislation Committee, 26/6/13; col. 7.]
As my noble friend pointed out, the two things are not incompatible. Of course it may well be, as both the Minister and the noble Baroness have said, that standards should indeed be raised, but that does not necessarily mean that there will not on occasion be the perceived necessity on the part of bereaved members of the family or others to challenge a decision. There ought to be a proper scope to facilitate that, and the concern is that that is not easily available under the order as it will stand.
The other aspect that the Minister might perhaps touch on is what is left to be done. Just last week we had a response to the consultation on other aspects of implementing the reform, and I assume that there will be further orders to come. I do not know if he is in a position to indicate when that might happen—I hope it will not be for a while so that some of us, the Minister included, can take a breath in the mean time from the tide of regulations and orders that we will be discussing over the next couple of weeks. One might have thought that it made sense for the whole thing to be brought together, but we have to deal with the order today. In the circumstances, we cannot object to it but we have regrets about the limited way in which the 2009 Act is being implemented. We look forward to seeing how the other aspects of it that remain to be dealt with emerge in due course.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I am grateful to both the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for their contributions. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness. Whenever a Government listen to wise advice and make an adjustment of policy, the Opposition immediately and churlishly brand that a U-turn rather than what good government should be, which is to listen to wise advice. I think that everyone now believes in the campaign that the noble Baroness very successfully worked on to restore the office of chief coroner; I do not think that anyone would now go back on that decision. Indeed, one of the more welcome things about what has happened is that His Honour Judge Peter Thornton has hit the ground running in his job. He has been visiting coroners across England and Wales, meeting stakeholders, issuing guidance to coroners on issues such as the location of inquest hearings and less invasive post mortem examinations, and drawing up proposals for specialist cadres of coroners to conduct certain types of investigation. He has been working very closely with my own office, the MoJ, on the rules and regulations under the Act, and has set up a new coroners’ training group and is working with the Judicial College to deliver training for coroners. Therefore, the hopes and expectations that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has for the office are justified by the new chief coroner’s “hit the ground running” attitude to his appointment, as I described it. He certainly has my support in that.
Lord Beecham
I am very grateful to the Minister for raising this matter, which I confess I have also been approached about and had intended to raise, but immersed as I have been in several regulations and debates and preparation for them, I am afraid I had overlooked that. I am particularly grateful to the Minister for making that clear. I suppose that I ought also to declare an interest as a member of the Jewish community in that regard.
Lord McNally
I sincerely hope it is a facility that the noble Lord does not need to use personally for a very long time. As he says, both the Muslim and Jewish communities have raised this issue, which again proves the value of having a chief coroner. It means that when communities raise an issue it can go to the chief coroner, who will now take responsibility for issuing guidance and getting the right responses. I thank the contributors and again hope that this SI will be accepted by the Committee.
National Health Service (Licensing and Pricing) Regulations 2013
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
The Health and Social Care Act 2012 gave Monitor a new role in regulating provision of NHS services and an overarching duty to protect and promote the interests of patients by promoting NHS provision that is economic, efficient and effective. These regulations provide key details that enable Monitor to carry out its new functions of licensing providers of NHS services and regulating the prices payable by commissioners for NHS services, in order to protect and promote patients’ interests.
The licence is a key tool by which Monitor will regulate providers of healthcare services for the NHS. Monitor has now taken on its new licensing powers in relation to foundation trusts and we expect this to extend to other providers of NHS services from April 2014.
A provider’s licence is made up of licence conditions that set out the requirements providers must meet if they wish to provide NHS services. In future, all providers of NHS services must hold a licence unless they are exempt under separate regulations, which were laid before the House on 4 July.
Monitor published its first set of standard licence conditions in February this year, after approval by the Secretary of State for Health. They include standard conditions such as requiring licensees to provide information to Monitor, which will apply to all licence holders, or to particular types of licence holder, such as conditions applying to providers whose services are designated as a commissioner-requested service. There are also special conditions that will apply to an individual provider, such as conditions for NHS foundation trusts. The Act sets out a process that Monitor must follow in order to either modify a standard licence condition or include a new standard licence condition that applies to all licences, or licences of a particular description.
These regulations allow the Secretary of State to determine the extent to which licence holders should be able to influence Monitor on any changes to the standard licence conditions, to ensure a balance between allowing real concerns to be addressed and not imposing unnecessary delays to the licence modification process. Monitor intends to engage potentially affected licence holders on the scope and scale of any changes to the standard licence conditions before reaching the statutory process, much as it did when engaging on the first set of standard licence conditions.
The statutory process then ensures that there will be proper engagement with affected licence holders and other relevant bodies about any change to the standard licence conditions, and includes a statutory check on Monitor’s ability to change the standard licence conditions. This check comes in the form of an ability for licence holders who would be affected to object to the change.
The regulations set the two objection thresholds at 20% of licence holders or 20% of market share of NHS provision. If either threshold is met, Monitor will be unable to make the change. However, Monitor may refer the issue to the Competition Commission. Monitor could make the changes only if the Competition Commission judged that the changes were in the public interest.
I turn to the second aspect of these regulations. Monitor has powers to take action where a person—which may be a licence holder, an exempt provider, NHS England or a clinical commissioning group—has not complied with a request for information documents, records or other documents that it considers necessary for Monitor to carry out its regulatory functions. Monitor also has powers to take action where a provider is in breach of the requirement to hold a licence or a condition of the licence.
The Act sets out Monitor’s powers to impose three different types of discretionary requirements, and I remind the Committee of them as a refresher. The first is a variable monetary penalty of such amount as Monitor may determine, up to 10% of the organisation’s turnover in England. The second is a compliance requirement, or, in other words, action to stop the breach in question or to ensure that it does not happen again—for example, a requirement that a provider ceases plans to dispose of an asset needed for the provision of a specified service. The third is a restoration requirement, an action to revert to the position before the breach occurred. For example, Monitor could require that a provider reopen a service that it had closed in breach of a licence condition.
Monitor’s guidance sets out how it will determine the use of its enforcement powers, including fines, and these regulations set the definition of turnover that Monitor will use when determining the level of fines. Simply put, providers’ turnover is defined as their turnover from NHS income. The turnover of clinical commissioning groups and NHS England is defined in terms of administrative spend; total spend would be vastly disproportionate.
I turn to the final aspect of the regulations. The Government want to ensure that the health system delivers better health, better care and better value for money. Better value for money and more accurate pricing will be a key part in delivering enhanced services to patients and in equipping the NHS to improve standards. The new system will drive improvement through providing mechanisms to ensure that prices better reflect costs of supply, incentivise better data recording and collection and make available better incentives and stronger compliance mechanisms. Monitor will have the specific duty of promoting healthcare services that represent value for money and maintain or improve quality. Monitor will achieve this by working with NHS England to regulate prices and set rules for determining prices for local pricing and flexibilities.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
I have a short query, which I hope that the Minister can clarify for me. It relates to the cross-border flow between England and Wales, either of providers or patients as users of services where NHS Wales is paying for services provided by NHS England or a provider in England. I would like reassurance that there will be no way that the experience of patients going from Wales into England, or the ability for providers from Wales to provide services to patients along the border, are in any way jeopardised within these arrangements and that they have equality within the provision.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I declare an interest as chair of an NHS foundation trust, president elect of GS1 UK and a consultant and trainer with Cumberlege Connections. I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation of these regulations. I want to put a few points to him.
I start with Part 2 on licensing, specifically paragraph 3 concerning monetary penalties. Can I ask the Minister about the logic of fining providers, when all that happens is that worse care will be provided for patients as the organisation will have less money? I think that the figure of up to 10% of turnover would virtually bankrupt most providers. While I certainly accept the need for penalties and consequences for failure, I wonder whether they would be better being not financial, as the reality is that they will not happen in many cases because the people who suffer will be those who get services. I just wonder about the logic of that.
It took NHS England months to wake up to the fact that the A&E problems were to do with the failure of systems, but for months it was pressing CCGs in some parts of the country to fine hospitals for poor A&E performance. I think that NHS England has completely lost the plot when it comes to understanding what is happening in the health service. I cannot think of a more hopeless response to the crisis than to come along and say, “We should fine hospitals”. I worry about this whole approach to fining. I say to the Minister that there are very limited signs that systems understand the winter problems and there is a real reluctance to get to grips with what needs to happen. This is a worry for the future which may not have much to do with the regulations, but my seeing the Minister here represents a good opportunity to raise them with him.
Does the Minister think that fines and targets can lead to some perverse incentives? Of course, it is right to issue targets, but I wonder whether the Minister might comment on a very interesting section of the Chief Medical Officer’s Report for 2013, published earlier this year, where she refers to the low number of instances of MRSA and C. diff. I do not think that there is any doubt that the targets that were set for the health service have been responsible for the focus that has led to this very welcome improvement. My understanding is that part of the response to this by the NHS has been to use antibiotics which should have been reserved for hard-to-treat infections. There is now real concern that the antibiotics that go with those hard-to-treat infections have been used rather widely, which is causing great problems in more general infection control. According to the CMO, while the typical, large, 1,000-bed acute NHS hospital has two to three MRSA bacteraemias per year and 50 to 60 C. diff cases, 400 to 500 bacteraemias involving Gram-negative bacteria can occur in a 1,000-bed-type hospital, 10% to 15% of them being due to strains resistance to those antibiotics for hard-to-treat infections. You can reach a point where individual targets become counterproductive because the focus of the NHS is simply on C. diff and MRSA and not on the wider infections which clearly need to be tackled as well.
Will the regulations lead to more specific targeting which can in turn lead to perverse incentives, or is a more sophisticated approach likely to be taken? It is clear that the Chief Medical Officer is concerned about the way in which some MRSA and C. diff targets are leading to perverse behaviours.
On Part 3, the rationale for each of the thresholds described for penalties, prices and licence changes has not been explained in relation to an evidence base. In other words, why are the thresholds where they are? What work has been done to suggest that those are the right thresholds? Of course, now they will only be tested post-implementation, but it would have been good to have seen a clearer review mechanism that enabled a sensible approach.
In respect of the mechanisms to lodge an objection to the pricing methodology, my understanding is that the Foundation Trust Network has stated throughout the development of the policy that the 51% threshold for an objection, together with the denominator comprising all tariff services, is too high a threshold to be met. Is the noble Earl prepared to look at this? That might be a reasonable approach for general objections to the general approach, but it is insufficiently sensitive to address sections of the tariff that may be inadequately compensated—cancer services, for example. The noble Earl will be aware that there were issues around the tariff for children’s services and women’s services. My reading of that is that if you were a specialist adviser your chances of reaching the 51% threshold would be very limited. Could this be looked at?
If my noble friend Lord Warner were here I am sure he would raise this. It is the question of what happens to non-foundation trusts. I know that Monitor is working closely with the NHS Trust Development Authority, but I would welcome clarity about what will happen to trusts outside Monitor’s remit to ensure that there is an even-handed approach across all providers in the sector. No one is more admiring of the work of Sir Peter Carr as chair of the NHS Trust Development Authority. The noble Earl knows that Sir Peter has held chairmanships under both Governments for many years. While he is a marvellous person, there is a fear that he will hold the chairmanship of the NHS Trust Development Authority for many years to come because of the issue about what on earth will happen to those non-foundation trusts that are clearly not going to reach FT status any time soon.
The noble Earl mentioned the Competition Commission.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I was just going to refer the Minister to his remarks about the Competition Commission, because it is relevant to the regulation. There is great confusion in the health service about the commission’s role. The Minister will know that there have been interventions in Dorset and Bristol on what seem to be entirely sensible proposals. In Dorset it was the merger of two small acute trusts, while in Bristol it was the “divvying up”, I suppose the phrase is, of services between two trusts in order to allow for more patients to be treated and all the benefits that you get from that, with one trust focusing on some services and the other focusing on others. In anyone’s terms, those are both examples of the kind of configuration of services that is entirely sensible and that the Government in other guises are supporting.
It is quite clear that the OFT has been trying to get into the health service for some years. I will not get into Section 75 now but the OFT now feels that it can get into the health service, although it is very difficult to see what the point of that would be. The OFT is independent, I understand that, but Ministers have been silent about this. There is utter confusion in the health service and, I believe, among the regulators about how to run these two issues—on the one hand, the Competition Commission and OFT approach, and on the other the need for us to be aggressive in terms of the reconfiguration, and in many cases the centralisation, of services. This matter needs to be teased out.
The regulations ought to be considered in relation to more general policy on pricing as part of the national tariff. The Minister will know that in October last year, when the House of Commons Health Committee had its annual accountability hearing with Monitor, David Bennett, the leader of Monitor, talked about perverse incentives with regard to the tariff. He said that he was not sure that they were fundamental to the pricing system but he agreed that the way it is working can create perverse incentives. One example he used was that if we want to move activity out of hospitals and into a community setting, one thing we have to think about is that there some real transition costs which will have to be paid one way or another. The question is: is the tariff being adjusted to allow for that?
The Health Select Committee published its subsequent report in March of this year and concluded:
“The setting of the tariff is of great significance to the NHS because of its implications … for short term cash flows in the system, and for longer term incentives for”,
service changes. It recommended that,
“Monitor and the NHS Commissioning Board … attach a high priority to this process … because NHS parties need to know the likely tariff in 2014–15 as soon as possible, but also because the long term framework of the tariff will have an immediate effect on service design and the integration of service provision”.
I would be interested to know whether it is the noble Earl’s view that progress is in fact being made, so that the regulations and the tariff to which they relate are much more sensitive to the need for change and reconfiguration in the health service. We must reorganise our services to get higher quality, and the work that Bruce Keogh is doing is surely driving us towards this. However, it sometimes seems as though some of our regulatory apparatus is now at risk of getting in the way of what, on anyone’s evidence base, would be a sensible move. I would be interested if the noble Earl is able to respond to any of those points.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords who have spoken. First, I hope that I can reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on the question she posed about the cross-border aspects of patient flows and the tariffs that apply. The tariff will apply only to services commissioned by commissioners in England: that is to say, CCGs and NHS England. Any provider who provides healthcare services for the purposes of the NHS which are covered by the proposed tariff will be able to object to Monitor’s proposed methodology, so I do not see that patients in Wales or on the border need to be anxious about this.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked a series of questions. First, he questioned the wisdom of allowing Monitor to fine providers. It is worth saying that the discretionary requirements which Monitor can impose, as laid down in these regulations, are based on those used for other regulatory offences. In fact, they are based on Part 3 of the Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008. That menu of options has been picked up and put into the 2012 Act.
As regards fines, we need to be clear—and it is certainly my understanding—that Monitor regards fines as a last resort. It will need to consider each case carefully and has a responsibility to ensure that its regulatory actions are reasonable, while deterring poor conduct in the future. It must also consider whether its other powers would be more appropriate. I understand the point that the noble Lord has raised but it is unlikely that we will see Monitor exercising this power with any frequency. We must bear in mind that 10% of turnover is of course a maximum figure.
The noble Lord asked about the thresholds as laid down in the regulations. The 20% threshold relating to licensing is based on a similar process which was in place for modifying licences in the energy sector. We considered that the situation here in the health service was comparable, and it is a threshold that commanded general acceptance.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I am of course aware of that but the reality is that the Competition Commission and the OFT did not really start intervening in the NHS. Clearly, they have been interested in areas such as dentistry for some time but they have not intervened in the wider NHS. I think that the problem is that it is now very unclear what is to be done when a reconfiguration of services takes place and, although I do not want to anticipate tomorrow’s debate on funding, it must be in the interest of greater centralisation of services, which, in a Competition Commission/OFT view, might be said to lead to reduced competition.
The problem is that it takes long enough to get change through in the NHS. The costs of delay to the health service if there is a Competition Commission referral and an investigation are very high. I wonder whether we can really afford it, given the imperative to get on with service changes. I know that guidance has been issued by Monitor which has reflected on the various roles, but at the end there is a lot of confusion. The Competition Commission and the OFT have not exactly made themselves available to debate either in Westminster or in the NHS about those issues. All we can read are the slightly acerbic comments by the staff of the Competition Commission and the OFT. I am not aware that they have ever made themselves available for a general discussion about their policy approach, which might be helpful in these circumstances.
Earl Howe
I take the noble Lord’s point about uncertainty and confusion that I know exists in certain parts of the health service as to what all this means. I can tell him that officials in the department have had some very productive discussions with both the OFT and the Competition Commission to ensure that their approach need not set unnecessary hares running as regards apprehensions that a purist competition-based approach will be taken by these bodies. I am satisfied that that will not happen. My advice is that the Competition Commission, in particular, has welcomed the input of departmental officials in terms of the factors that need to be brought into play when making a judgment on what is in the best interests of the health service and patients.
At the same time I am aware that a number of useful events and conversations took place within the health service itself when we clarified with providers the considerations that the OFT and the Competition Commission will look at in proposed mergers. We are ensuring that when proposals are made the benefits of mergers are clearly defined in terms that will resonate with the competition authorities. The noble Lord is right that we are in new territory in many senses, but I am optimistic that the system will work in the way that it should. It is certainly about looking at competition aspects but, more pertinently, looking at the criteria that I mentioned earlier, such as the public interest in the case of licence modifications, the test of appropriateness in pricing methodology, and in the case of mergers, the interests of patients in the health service. The OFT and the Competition Commission must take into account the benefits of a proposed reconfiguration if they consider it under the Enterprise Act 2002. I remind noble Lords that that is the governing Act, so in theory at least, we have been in this situation for more than 10 years. In doing so the competition authorities must consider whether those benefits would outweigh any substantial lessening of competition that they find.
The noble Lord asked about the tariff, and in particular, primary care. We agree that payment mechanisms need to be aligned to drive better outcomes and better value for patients. They also need to be responsive and flexible, for example to enable services to be provided in an integrated way. Monitor and NHS England will work together to move the tariff in this direction. They are best placed to do that given their different roles.
The noble Lord asked me what would happen if the tariff proved to be inadequate. We expect the tariff in future more closely to relate to the costs of providing particular services. If the price payable for a service would make it uneconomic for a provider to provide a service, Sections 124 and 125 of the 2012 Act provide for a process for local modifications of the price payable.
My advice is that NHS England and Monitor are working very well together in this regard. Guiding principles have been defined and six shared principles for pricing have been agreed: that the pricing mechanism should enable and promote improvements in care for patients and taxpayers; that it should enable efficient providers to earn appropriate reimbursement for their services; that it should have regard to sustain the NHS offer in the long run; that it should not preclude the delivery of the Secretary of State’s mandate for NHS England; that it should have regard to the principles of better regulation; and that it should support movement towards a fairer playing field for providers.
I hope that I have answered most if not all the questions, but I undertake to write to noble Lords if I have failed to do that.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
I seek a small point of clarification. I take the example of a Welsh provider that is providing services for Welsh patients and that is also licensed to provide for patients coming across from England. In the event of them being deemed not to meet the conditions and therefore a fine potentially being levied at 10%, would that be only 10% of the contract issued on behalf of the English patients? Two very different healthcare systems will be operating.
I realise that this is complex, but the two healthcare systems are becoming more divergent yet the population on the border has to access both sides, I am concerned that these are some of the things that need to be clarified. It is a detail, I know.
House of Lords
Dyslexia
Lord Addington
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to make apprenticeships accessible to dyslexic people.
Lord Addington
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and draw attention to my declaration of interest.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, final data for 2010-11 show that 18,940 learners participating on an apprenticeship programme self-declared that they had dyslexia. They had a success rate of 72.6% compared to 76.4% overall. All apprenticeships are stretching and prepare individuals for sustained employment. Dyslexia should not present an insuperable barrier to those candidates who demonstrate competence and commitment in their chosen field. Access to Work and additional learning support are two possible sources of funding to help provide equipment or other assistance for apprentices with dyslexia.
Lord Addington
I thank my noble friend for that Answer. The fact remains that dyslexia is a problem that affects people in reading and writing, that a written assessment is made at the end of an apprenticeship, and assistive technology, which is made available to those in the university sector, is not allowed to be used. Bearing that in mind, will my noble friend give me an assurance that this situation will be changed and reviewed in the immediate future?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
As my noble friend knows very well, new assistive technology is advancing at a very rapid rate, with apps and packages such as Prismo, Livescribe, Dragon and others. Dyslexia affects different people in different ways. Some solutions will suit some people, while other solutions will suit others. If it would be helpful, I will ask officials to set up a meeting with stakeholders, which would include the British Dyslexia Association and the Adult Dyslexia Organisation, to help to ensure that compatibility with assistive technology is considered when tests and other assessments are developed.
Baroness Whitaker
My Lords, how much of the assistance to which the noble Baroness referred, which I am sure is very welcome, has been made available to Gypsies and Travellers?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I am afraid that I do not have those figures to hand. If I can find details for the noble Baroness I will write to her.
Lord Walton of Detchant
Does the Minister accept that whereas developmental dyslexia is the commonest and best known of the specific learning difficulties, there are a number of other less common specific learning difficulties such as developmental dyspraxia—serious clumsiness—and developmental dyscalculia, which means difficulty in calculating and the use of numbers? Is it not the case that people with these difficulties also have special education and training needs and require just as much attention as those with dyslexia?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
Yes, indeed, my Lords. There is a range of disabilities which can provide hurdles to young people embarking on apprenticeships. The National Apprenticeship Service looks at different ways of supporting diversity within apprenticeships and we recently commissioned a study from Peter Little to look at accessibility. We are implementing an action plan as a result of his report and he himself will help us to implement that.
Lord Martin of Springburn
My Lords, many schools throughout the United Kingdom encourage young boys and girls to take up apprenticeships while they are still at school. In other words, they are given day release and special training, which would help people with special needs. Will Her Majesty’s Government consider expanding this facility to as many schools as possible?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
We already encourage schools to promote apprenticeships as a career path for people while they are at school, so that they will consider setting themselves up with the right sort of programmes of learning before they leave. Businesses increasingly go into schools to talk about possibilities, so there are ongoing programmes all the way through, which should help with what the noble Lord seeks to achieve.
Lord Brookman
My Lords, apprenticeships are one thing, but I am sure the Minister will agree that quite a number of young people at university are dyslexic and have other problems. Can the courses not be designed in such a way that these young people will end up with a degree rather than be frustrated and probably leave university not long after entering it?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
There are a great number of students at university who are dyslexic. The universities have their own methods of dealing with them. By and large, they have well established programmes of support and assistance to ensure that dyslexic undergraduates become dyslexic graduates.
Baroness Wilkins
The noble Lord, Lord Addington, has been asking about apprenticeships and dyslexia for a very long time. Is it not time that real action was taken and something was done?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
Yes, indeed. The point that the noble Lord made was about assistive technology. In my answer I said that it was developing very fast and offered to get the interested parties together to see whether we can find a way forward with that. On the subject of dyslexic apprentices, I point out that the apprentice of the year is a dyslexic woman called Emma Rogers, who gives credit to her college at Weston for having helped her through. She is a tremendous role model.
Lord Swinfen
My Lords, what help is being given to dyslexic children at school?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
With the increasingly high profile of dyslexia and other forms of disability, it is becoming part of the teacher training programme, and teachers are very much more aware of trying to recognise the signs at an early point, when more help can be given to children, rather than, as so often happened in the past and can still happen, leaving it undiagnosed until pupils are quite advanced in the educational process. Schools have different ways of dealing with it, and by and large we get very good reports of good practice.
The Lord Bishop of Chester
My Lords, I speak as the father of two dyslexic boys. My observation of dyslexia is that it often takes young people longer to find their feet in life, especially if the dyslexia is not properly diagnosed. Will the Minister confirm that there are no age restrictions on admission to apprenticeships, because it is often a bit later in life that kids who are dyslexic are ready to take up apprenticeships and the like?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
The right reverend Prelate makes a very valid point. The apprenticeships we have been focusing on particularly are the ones for the younger age group. However, apprenticeships are certainly available for adults, and are being taken up in rather larger numbers by adults than they are by younger people. The possibilities are increasing for people with dyslexia to come into a very useful work-based programme of learning.
Lord Davies of Coity
My Lords, I certainly welcome the Government’s approach to apprentices with dyslexia. However, I would like to know what the Government are doing when the apprentices become craftsmen, because apprentices will become craftsmen but will still have dyslexia. How will the Government cope with that?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
In a great many practical craft areas, dyslexia is no handicap. You can see absolutely wonderful examples of craftsmanship in this country achieved by people with a whole range of disabilities. We want to promote craftsmanship in the country as much as we can.
Syria
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Wood of Anfield
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that the proposed international peace conference on the Syrian conflict takes place in the near future.
The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)
My Lords, all our efforts have focused on securing a successful outcome at the forthcoming Geneva conference. A negotiated political settlement remains the best way in which to end the current bloodshed. The US, Russia and the UN are working intensively on the details of the conference; it is inevitable that there will be challenges, but the UN Secretary-General has stressed that the three parties are committed to convening the conference as soon as possible.
Lord Wood of Anfield
I thank the Minister for that Answer. Given the failure of the G8 summit to agree a date for the start of the Geneva 2 talks, does the Minister think on reflection that it was a mistake for the Government to spend the run-up to the G8 raising the volume on the possibility of the UK arming the Syrian rebels? Does she agree that it would be damaging for the prospects of an international peace conference if the Government were to repeat the mistake in the coming weeks and months?
Baroness Warsi
The Government have consistently approached this matter by responding to the situation on the ground. I do not think that they can be criticised for actually responding to it and encouraging agreement when we think that it is possible. The countries that we are trying to get agreement between—the US and Russia, with the UN of course playing a facilitating role—are all committed to Geneva 2 and to a transitional executive authority that would be in accordance with the wishes of the Syrian people. It was right, in the run-up to the G8, to get as much agreement as possible, and it continues to be right to continue to push Russia and the US to come to an agreement to bring the coalition and the regime around the table.
The Lord Bishop of Exeter
My Lords, does the Minister accept that, if the international community is to have any hope of starting to resolve this dreadful situation, all parties to the conflict need to be at the negotiating table? If that is the case—and I ask this particularly in the light of the fourth Question on the Order Paper—how does she respond to the suggestion that this ought also to include Iran?
Baroness Warsi
The right reverend Prelate will be aware that this question has been raised in the House before. Our view is that those parties that were party to Geneva 1 should be party to Geneva 2. The challenge that we have at this moment is to get the opposition and the regime around the table to agree a road map. Of course, if other parties can play a constructive role, that, too, would be appreciated, but the role that Iran is playing in Syria at the moment is not considered to be constructive.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
Does my noble friend agree that, in addition to the importance of having Iran at the table, it will also be critical to the success of the conference to have credible members of the Assad Government there, if not President Assad himself? Moreover, the role of Hezbollah, which is often seen to be in alignment with Iran, is actually rather independent. Lebanon is a neighbour and is hugely affected by the civil war in Syria. Will she also consider, in trying to move Geneva 2 forward, whether they might invite all the key players in an open gesture so that we might get reconciliation and agreement at the end of that?
Baroness Warsi
I can assure my noble friend that we are trying to do all we can to bring the parties to the table. At the moment, the challenge has been in relation to the regime. We feel that people from the regime should be credible, and should be those who can take decisions and make sure that they are subsequently effected. To try to broaden that beyond the regime at this stage is not something that we think would be constructive.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, further to my noble friend’s question, will the Minister not concede that the Syrian Government have agreed, the Russians have agreed and the Americans have agreed to participate? Did she see a report by Reuters that the leader of the Syrian National Council has said that it is holding out to get more arms and waiting until then to strengthen its negotiating position? Surely, the British Government’s policy in holding out the prospect of giving it arms is therefore counterproductive.
Baroness Warsi
I have said on many occasions at this Dispatch Box and maybe should say again that no decision has been taken to arm the Syrian opposition. The noble Lord will be aware that the national coalition has just elected a new president, Ahmed Assi al-Jarba, who has made it his job, among other things—indeed, he did so before his election—to broaden the coalition to include more people within it, to make sure that he unites the coalition. He is committed to the Geneva process.
Lord Selkirk of Douglas
Will it be the Minister’s policy to make sure that the future housing needs of the refugees who are now in temporary provision are looked at and discussed with the relevant Governments, bearing in mind that many of those concerned cannot return to their original houses, which have been reduced to rubble?
Baroness Warsi
My noble friend will be aware that the largest humanitarian appeal ever has been launched as a result of the situation in Syria. The United Kingdom has made the largest contribution it has ever made to a single humanitarian appeal—£350 million. Indeed, the Secretary of State for International Development was in Lebanon earlier this week pledging further support for Syrian refugees in Lebanon. The long-term solution is to resolve the political situation on the ground so that these people are allowed to return. There are more than 4 million people displaced within Syria and 1.7 million displaced outside it. There is no conceivable way, even as an international community, that we could meet the housing needs of that many people. The solution has to be to create the climate for them to return to their own homes.
Lord Soley
Is the Minister aware that the reason that the Russians are reluctant to set a date, and they are reluctant, is that they want the Assad regime to regain as much control of territory as it can to strengthen its hand in negotiations? That cannot be good for Syria or anyone else in the long run, but we need to be realistic about it. There is a reluctance to set a date because the regime wants to extend its control on the land so that it can negotiate from a position of strength.
Baroness Warsi
My Lords, I cannot hypothesise about the reasoning for the Russian’s position. Of course, we have different views on handling this crisis, but we have shared fundamental aims. We are both committed to ending the conflict, to stopping Syria fragmenting, to letting the Syrian people decide who governs them and to preventing the growth of violent extremism. We are hopeful that, because we are committed to the same aims, we can reach an agreement on how to get there.
Alcohol: Minimum Pricing
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they will publish their response to their consultation on the introduction of a minimum unit price for alcohol.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)
My Lords, the public consultation on the Government’s alcohol strategy closed on 6 February. We will publish our response in due course.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
I am grateful for small mercies. Will the Minister confirm that the principal problem leading to more than 10 million people drinking excessively is the easy availability of cheap alcohol? Will he also confirm that that is still the central plank of the Government’s policy in their alcohol strategy? Secondly, when are we likely to start to see some progress on this issue, and will the Government please embrace it with the kind of enthusiasm which the previous Labour Government did when they were tackling the difficult issue of the tobacco industry and smoking? Until we take on the drink industry and some of the vested interests we will not start to see the problem resolved in the way that we need it, given the issues that arise for the health service from excessive drinking.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The noble Lord rightly focuses on the elements of the Government’s alcohol strategy that were put out to consultation. I have explained that a response to that consultation will be delivered in due course. Availability is one of many factors but to suggest that this Government have not been tackling the problem underestimates what has been achieved. The late-night levy has been introduced. The early morning alcohol restriction order, which was created under the previous Government but not commenced, has been commenced by us and we have sought to rebalance the licensing arrangements so that the ability of individuals in the vicinity to object to licences is now greatly strengthened. I totally accept what the noble Lord has said and indeed the Government’s strategy will demonstrate that.
Baroness Hollins
Canada has introduced and evaluated a minimum unit price for alcohol. By introducing a 10% increase in the minimum unit price for some drinks there has been a decrease of 33% in wholly alcohol-related deaths. Given this evidence, when will the Government commit to including a minimum unit price as part of their alcohol strategy?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
This is just the sort of evidence being evaluated by the Government. I accept that we also have the Scottish experience whereby the Scottish Parliament has passed legislation on this issue. That is subject to a court appeal but we are taking note of what is going on elsewhere.
Lord Avebury
My Lords, I am sure that the Government have looked at the evidence produced by the Institute of Alcohol Studies which shows that a 50p minimum unit price would reduce deaths per year by 3,000, hospital admissions by 98,000 and crime incidents by 40,000. Have the Government made any estimate of the savings to the public purse that that reduction would produce?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The cost of alcohol to society is estimated at £21 billion, £11 billion of which is due to alcohol-related crime. These figures are part and parcel of the consideration the Government are giving to the issue.
Lord Turnberg
My Lords, there is a clear relationship between the price of alcohol and severe liver disease—we have known about that for ever—and the number of hospital admissions and deaths from liver disease are closely related to the price of alcohol. The Government can talk about it for a long time, but when will we see some action?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, the figure of 1.2 million admissions to hospital in 2011-12 in England speaks for itself.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I think noble Lords are well aware how long “due course” may be.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, for all the talk of consultation, the consultation on the alcohol strategy specifically ruled out consulting on minimum alcohol pricing. It said that the Government were committed to introducing a minimum unit price, but added:
“However, in other areas, this consultation seeks views”.
The Home Secretary said:
“We will … introduce a minimum unit price for alcohol”.
What has changed the Government’s mind? Has private lobbying forced this U-turn?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I can certainly counter that allegation. The response will be a comprehensive review of alcohol and the way in which we tackle alcohol abuse in this country, and it will be available in due course.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
When do the Government plan to start to pilot sobriety schemes as a way of reducing reoffending rates among those whose crimes have been alcohol-fuelled?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
That is an interesting suggestion. I have no information on it but will certainly take it up.
Lord Glentoran
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the previous Government had at least 10 years in which to react to this and that the price of alcohol and alcohol pricing will do nothing other than probably damage the Government’s income? It will do nothing to achieve what we need to achieve—that, surely, is about getting in among communities.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I certainly agree with my noble friend that the price of alcohol is not the only issue at stake. Lots of local communities are taking positive action in this area. I have been to see the night-time economy in the centre of Nottingham. Street ambassadors, taxi marshals and street pastors have helped to make that area of Nottingham safe at night, which has done a lot to improve the economy of the area. There is a big role for community: it is not just a matter of the price of alcohol.
Lord Rea
My Lords, further to the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, about the Canadian experience, does the Minister agree that it has reduced sales and off-sales at supermarkets and the like—the very places to which binge drinkers go to “tank up” before a night out?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The information that the noble Baroness gave was helpful and I am grateful for it.
Iran
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Williams of Crosby
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will re-establish full diplomatic relations with Iran to coincide with the inauguration of President Hassan Rouhani on 3 August.
The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)
My Lords, diplomatic relations between the UK and Iran are not severed, but they are at their lowest levels possible. Our respective embassies are closed, but Sweden looks after UK interests in Iran and Oman looks after Iranian interests in the UK. Until we can be confident that Iran will abide by its obligations to protect our staff and allow them to carry out their functions, we cannot have a diplomatic presence in Tehran.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
I thank the Minister for that rather disappointing Answer and point out that President-elect Rouhani was not only elected by a clear majority on the first ballot of the Iranian people but had a majority of more than 12 million people over his nearest rival, the mayor of Tehran. In the past week, he has not only called for the clergy to cease to interfere in the private lives of Iranians and called upon Iranian state television and radio to address Iran’s problems much more honestly and fairly, but has also said that the young people of Iran will benefit from having clear access to the internet.
Given that, and also given that there are now thousands of young Iranians on the streets praising their new president, might we as a country not make at least some gesture, at the point at which he becomes the elected president on 3 August, which will re-open lines of contact more closely between Britain and Iran. France and other European nations are already establishing their willingness to work more closely with the new Government.
Baroness Warsi
My noble friend has much more practical experience on this issue than I. Having visited the country on a number of occasions, she has seen the situation on the ground. I can assure her that we are open to an improvement in the relationship between the United Kingdom and Iran. I acknowledge that this was a predominantly peaceful election with a large turnout and that Mr Rouhani, who will be inaugurated as president in August, has described his win as “victory over extremism”.
Having said that, it is important that we see these words translated into action: there is a whole series of issues on which we want to see a positive approach from Iran. We also have to acknowledge and accept that, although the election was positive and decisive, a very large number of candidates—678—were disqualified, including all 30 of the women who wanted to stand.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
The Minister’s caution is welcome to many of us in this House. In the 22 days up until 8 July—only two days ago—75 people were executed in Iran. One of those was only 15 at the time of their arrest and some of these executions were mass ones, with as many as 21 being executed at the same time. Surely the Government are right to exercise caution. The mullahs are still very much in charge, no matter who takes over as president in August.
Baroness Warsi
Of course the noble Baroness is right. Supreme Leader Khamenei still has a huge amount of influence in many spheres of life in Iran. She is right to say that the human rights situation in Iran is dire. In 2012 there were reports of over 350 executions and 162 executions as of May this year. It has more journalists in prison than almost any other country. Opposition leaders remain detained in prison after two years. We have real human rights and other concerns in Iran. We are open to improving this relationship, and there have been opportunities when officials have met, such as during the E3+3 talks, but it is important, as the noble Baroness says, to remain cautious.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, would my noble friend not accept that it is precisely because of the permanent history of Iran and its human rights infractions that we should support the president just elected? He showed considerable courage in his election campaign and would be immensely supported in his undoubted wish to move away from the dark side of Iranian life if we were to restore diplomatic relations without preconditions.
Baroness Warsi
I understand my noble friend’s points, but the one thing that I and most of us who have been involved in foreign policy realise is that the situation is never black or white. There are always many grey areas, as is the case here. The new president has made some positive remarks, but it is important that they are translated into action. However, I can assure my noble friend and other noble Lords that we have contact with the Iranians. For example, last year at the Heart of Asia conference, as part of the discussions on Afghanistan, the Foreign Secretary met Foreign Minister Salehi in the margins of the meeting. There are therefore opportunities for discussions to take place, even at the highest level. However, in terms of restarting diplomatic relations and having an embassy—which, let us not forget, was ransacked in 2011 and where our officials and staff came under attack—it is important that we do so cautiously.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, it is actually the turn of the Cross Benches. Perhaps we may have a quick question and a quick answer.
Lord Hylton
My Lords, surely we need direct contact. Will the Government seek assurances from the Iranians that if we sent in a chargé d’affaires, he would be properly protected? Fuller representation can wait until later.
Baroness Warsi
I think that we are proposing official-to-official contact, possibly even in a third country, beforehand. That would be the normal course of events, not just in the case of Iran.
Lord Davies of Stamford
My Lords, all of us hope that Rouhani will prove to be more reasonable and rational than Ahmadinejad. Is it not important that nobody should have any illusions; that we should make it absolutely clear that sanctions cannot be relaxed until there is real evidence, through inspections or otherwise, that Iran is not proceeding with a nuclear weapons programme; and that, in view of the lamentable record on human rights and other matters that the noble Baroness has just set out, we should reserve even symbolic concessions on our side until the Iranian regime makes some positive move forward?
Baroness Warsi
Sanctions are there for a purpose. They are targeted. They are for a specific issue and we have been careful to note that humanitarian goods are protected. However, the noble Lord is right. We have to make progress on substantive issues, and nuclear is one of them.
Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill
Public Bodies (Abolition of the Registrar of Public Lending Right) Order 2013
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
That the draft order laid before the House on 9 May be approved.
Relevant documents: 2nd Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, 2nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 8 July.
Social Security, Child Support, Vaccine Damage and Other Payments (Decisions and Appeals) (Amendment) Regulations 2013
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Freud
That the draft regulations laid before the House on 11 June be approved.
Relevant documents: 5th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 8 July.
Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill
(10 years, 9 months ago)
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18:26 - Division on Amendment 94 - Ayes: 89 / Noes: 267 - Amendment 94 disagreed.
“( ) Omit sub-paragraph (1).”
Lord Alli
My Lords, I shall speak also to my manuscript amendment, Amendment 84A.
The amendment is, on the face of it, about pensions, but it is also about equal treatment of the ones we love. This is the only point in the Bill where we treat same-sex couples who get married prejudicially when compared with opposite-sex couples. All married couples should be treated equally. It is a principle that we have fought throughout the Bill to maintain. I know that it is a principle that the noble Baronesses, Lady Stowell of Beeston and Lady Northover, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, have defended. It is something that the majority of this House, regardless of party affiliation, has defended. If we let this clause go through as it is, it will be the first and only time that we breach that principle. Let me explain why.
If I were to marry a woman and was a member of an occupational pension scheme and died, my wife would be entitled to a survivor’s pension from my occupational pension scheme backdated to, I think, 1988. If I were to marry a man and was a member of the same occupational pension scheme and died, my partner’s survivor’s pension benefit would be backdated only to 2005, the date on which we introduced civil partnerships.
The Bill takes the inequality in the Civil Partnership Act and applies it to same-sex marriages, instead of taking the position of opposite-sex couples and equalising the pension arrangements. In effect, that means that same-sex couples are treated as civil partners for those schemes. That might be necessary if there was a huge cost to the public purse, given that we are in difficult economic times. However, let me make it clear in absolute terms that no public money is required to make this change. I will repeat that, because the Government may try to imply that there would be: no public money is required to make this change. If I am wrong, I am more than happy for the Minister to explain why. The cost is to private occupational pension schemes; that is in Bill. The Government’s estimate puts the maximum additional cost at approximately £80 million for those private schemes. By their own admission, that is a drop in the ocean, given the size of those pension funds.
The Government know that this is wrong. In 2005 the Government changed the rules of their own pension scheme for civil partnership survivor benefits, because it felt wrong to them to apply this principle to public service pensions. Equally, two-thirds of the private occupational pension schemes in this country believe that it is wrong and have changed their policy. We heard from the spiritual Benches that the Church of England has changed its pension scheme arrangements to reflect this. Why, therefore, let one-third of occupational pension schemes discriminate against married couples in the future only on the basis of sexual orientation? It is worth mentioning that, in order to qualify, the scheme member will have to have fully paid up towards the scheme. That requires a private occupational pension fund to disregard the contributions made prior to 2005 to stop the survivor’s benefit coming through.
I said in Committee that when you lose your husband, wife or long-term partner, it is, by all accounts, a terrible experience. The last thing you want to do is to have to argue your case to a pension fund trustee. Given that we have this legislation, it must be insulting to be told that having married, you are now to be treated as a civil partner.
Why are the Government opposed to this amendment? It is the Treasury and DWP. I know that the Minister will be forced to read out whatever they have asked her to read out. I suspect that it will go something like this. First, “We foresee problems with this amendment, as there may be unforeseen implications,”; or, secondly, “Even though there is no direct cost to the Treasury, we can see the possibility that someone could take a case that might lead to the possibility that we might at some time have to equalise pensions for men and women”—by the way, it would be a miracle if that case came off; or, thirdly, “Let us throw in a spurious cost: £2 billion, £3 billion or £4 billion—the Minister to choose whichever number they wish”—that is to do with gender equalisation of pensions, not occupational pension schemes—but noble Lords Lordships will be so bored and confused that they will not care; or, fourthly, “Let us make out that it creates an inequality because this is an equality Bill”; or, fifthly, “Let us say that we do not like to legislate retrospectively even though we changed our own pension funds retrospectively as soon as we could”.
Yesterday, I met the pensions Minister by the kind invitation of the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell. At the end of our discussion, I could honestly say that I was no clearer about the objections of the Treasury or DWP to this amendment. The pensions Minister gave the usual unconvincing and unintelligible Treasury line. The Government are making a mountain out of a molehill here. This is a tiny issue affecting a small number of people at a terrible time of need.
I have also tabled a manuscript amendment which seeks to give the Government an alternative. I am calling it the “Lord Lester principle”. Basically, it offers the Government a two-tier process: first, a review of the issues involved and a report back; and secondly, order-making powers to implement their decisions, as we did with humanist marriages. If the Minister feels that the Government need more time, I would be happy to discuss these alternatives to try to find a solution before Third Reading. If the Government are not prepared to do that, I will move my manuscript amendment, Amendment 84A, and seek to test the opinion of the House. I beg to move.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, as in Committee, I am pleased to support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Alli. As he has pointed out, the amendment represents a crucial opportunity to ensure that the introduction of same-sex marriage in this country is achieved with exactly the same basic benefits and insurance rights for male/male and female/female as for male/female. If we do not address this final discriminatory hurdle now, it will be several decades before all gay couples achieve equality. For gay men and women, it will mean decades of waiting as they continue to live with the reality that their loved ones may not be provided for when they die; decades in which individuals who have worked and contributed to their pensions, planned and been prudent, are subject to the whim of employers and pension providers, who may choose to pay a pittance in survivor benefits for no other reason than the gender of their spouses. If we do not remove this last remnant of historical injustice, the “second tier” of marriage will continue in contradiction of all the calls for exactly equal treatment that we have heard again and again over the past few days in your Lordships’ Chamber.
A brief look across the Atlantic may help to illustrate the point. Two weeks ago, in the landmark case of United States v Windsor, the Supreme Court considered the case of Edith Windsor and her spouse and partner of 44 years, Thea. They lived together in New York, a state which recognises same-sex marriages, and when Thea died in 2009 she left her entire estate to Edith. Had they been a heterosexual couple, Edith would have inherited the entire estate tax free. However, US federal law prevents their marriage being recognised for the purpose of inheritance tax and Edith was hit with a bill for $363,053. The Supreme Court found the law to be unconstitutional. A key plank in its reasoning was that the treatment of Edith and others like her had the effect of creating a separate sub-set of legal marriages that were treated less favourably. To use the words of Justice Kennedy,
“it tells those couples, and all the world, that their otherwise valid marriages are unworthy of federal recognition”,
and,
“the principal purpose and the necessary effect of this law are to demean those persons who are in lawful same-sex marriage”.
The effect of this judgment was to grant legally married same-sex couples access to the same federal entitlement available to heterosexual married couples including tax, health and pension rights.
Questions of taxes and pensions may seem mundane to some, but I can confidently say that this change in the law would mean the world to those people whom it affects. Among them is a client of Liberty, John Walker. I mentioned him when your Lordships debated this issue in Committee. John and his partner have been in a loving, committed relationship for more than 20 years, and they registered for a civil partnership at the earliest opportunity. Yet John’s partner is currently entitled to a fraction of the survivor benefits which would be available to a female spouse, even one John met and married today.
It cannot be right to continue a two-tier discriminatory marriage system. Surely John deserves the peace of mind of knowing that his partner will be equally provided for. Is that not exactly what the Government’s commitment to securing real equality for gay couples really means?
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, I too have put my name to this amendment. After two such full speeches by the noble Lord, Lord Alli, and the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, it would be a waste of your Lordships’ time for me to say anything more than that I agree with both of them, but I also believe in the art of the possible. That is why I very much hope that manuscript Amendment 84A, or some form of it, will be agreed by the Government, because in that way we will have some hope of getting real change.
The Lord Bishop of Guildford
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Alli, has already spoken of some support from these Benches for his amendment. I will not repeat what I said at an earlier stage, but I wish to support him again, and also, as the noble Lord, Lord Lester, has just said, to support the device of regulation as a practical way forward.
Baroness Noakes
My Lords, my heart is completely with Amendment 84 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Alli, but I have trouble in my head to completely agree with the amendment, mainly because we are opposing a retrospective burden without any evidence of what that impact might be. I completely understand the case for the individuals who are affected. We do not know where the cost will actually be borne. The cost is low overall, but it is not correct to compare it to the amount of assets under management, as was done in Committee, because the instance might be in very small pension schemes. It might be the instance of a relatively small scheme with a relative small number of members, one highly paid member with a civil partner—or married in a same-sex couple—who is very much younger. That would have a very disproportionate impact on the actuarial valuation of the liabilities in that small scheme, which could be a charity or a small business. I would be much more comfortable if we knew what the impact was. We may still, knowing the impact, go ahead, and that is why I strongly support Amendment 84A but have a little difficulty with Amendment 84.
Lord Higgins
My Lords, like my noble friend who has just spoken, I, too, have serious reservations about this amendment. Indeed, I am opposed to it. I take that view in the light of experience—some eight or nine years on the Front Bench on work and pensions and as a former chairman of a pretty large company pension scheme. This amendment would effectively remove the discretion of the trustees to exercise their powers in a way that is favourable or unfavourable to a particular group of people in the pension scheme. We do not know the exact cost, although the noble Lord, Lord Alli, put it at £80 million. I leave it to my noble friend on the Front Bench to say what the effect would be on public finances but the reality is that this would affect a number of pension funds.
We have to look at this in context. If there was one individual disaster, more than any other of Gordon Brown’s time as Chancellor of the Exchequer, it was the change that he made to the taxation of company pensions towards the beginning of the Labour Government. The result has, undoubtedly, been the decimation of final salary pension schemes and a transfer to defined contribution schemes. Either way, we have seen the finances of pension funds seriously deteriorating and, in many cases, funds giving up the final salary scheme or giving it up as far as new members are concerned.
As the noble Lord pointed out, a number of trustees have gone along with what the amendment does. However, some have not, and we must leave them the discretion. There may be good reasons why they have not, not least financial ones. It may be that some scheme is tottering—as many have been over the past 10 or 15 years—to the point where it needs to be decided whether the scheme should be closed or changed from a final salary to a defined benefit scheme and so on. It is wrong retrospectively to put a charge on the funds in such a scheme, to which the existing members are contributing but not the people coming into the scheme. Indeed, if we were to accept the amendment, we may find people in a same-sex marriage are brought into the final salary part of the company scheme when others, in the defined contribution part of the scheme, have not been allowed the same benefits. That would, I think, be unfair.
We should leave it to the overall discretion of the trustees. No doubt, over time, it is likely that many more will create the situation that the noble Lord, Lord Alli, speaks of, if they have not yet. However, we should leave it to the discretion of the scheme and the trustees of the scheme—it is their responsibility—and not retrospectively impose a cost on those schemes. That, I think, would be wrong.
Lord Deben
My Lords, throughout this debate, we have had to say to groups and individuals who are very unhappy about this legislation that, in the cause of equal marriage, they will have to contain their unhappiness. We have said, for example, to registrars—I use the example because I voted the other way in that case—that they will have to accept the change in the law.
It worries me that the moment that we talk about money, all sorts of people who have been perfectly happy up to now start being concerned. I hope that the right reverend Prelate will not be upset when I say that I remember, in the debates in the Synod of the Church of England, that everybody was very happy until you started talking about money. Once you talked about money, it was surprising how all kinds of other issues were brought in. One of the things about pensions is that it can be more expensive for people if they get married than if they do not. Nobody goes around saying, “That is a pretty mean thing to do. That means less for the rest of us”. That is not how a pension scheme works.
It seems to me perfectly acceptable for the Government to have the opportunity—which the noble Lord, Lord Alli, with characteristic care, has offered—to look carefully in case one or two of the worries of the noble Lord and the noble Baroness who have spoken before turn out to be true. There might be something that we have not really thought through and it would be wrong to exclude that possibility. However, I do not think that this House can say that, for the time going forward, one sort of marriage will work in one way and another will work in another way. After all, we opposed an amendment that delicately pointed towards that by a majority of more than 200. It seems to me that Mammon is getting into this, and Mammon should always be very carefully considered before Mammon is allowed to win. I hope that the Minister accepts at the very least that every effort will be made to ensure that this Bill means what it says, which is equal marriage, and that it does not mean equal marriage until it comes to money, when the Treasury gets in on the act.
Lord Elton
My Lords, I remind my noble friend that we are advised to make friends of both God and Mammon. In this context, we are under the shadow of an enormous majority in the Second Reading debate, in which the House accepted the principle of equality. In Committee, I sought to apply that principle to the process of converting a civil partnership into a marriage by requiring those undergoing that process to swear an oath similar to that sworn by those getting married. I withdrew it partly at the request of my noble friend on the Front Bench and partly out of prudence in order to consider it before the next stage, which is the current stage. My noble friend was ahead of me at the Dispatch Box with an arrangement which comes just about to the same place with regard to my marriage—or, rather, to my amendment.
Lord Elton
I assure noble Lords that it is very difficult to get close to my marriage. My noble friend put forward an arrangement that gave the Government time to think and gave the Secretary of State the power to review and to act if it seemed appropriate. I think I was a little ungracious in moving my own amendment because I was so pleased with how clever my own drafting had been. However, that was the principle that I sought to support.
I was rather surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Alli, who had been quite supportive of my amendment in Committee, came forward with all sorts of reservations and was unable to support it earlier. Your Lordships will now be expecting me, with a certain satisfaction, to say that I cannot follow him so far. However, I am a man of principle, and I think that we need to have equality through this Bill. Amendment 84A gives the Government the power to pull out of this if necessary. I remind them that, during the time that they are considering, reviewing and consulting, they might go through the same reviews and consultations with the insurers as they have done over, for instance, flooding. The Government are used to talking to insurance companies and can at least find out where the shoe pinches, and this amendment would allow them to do so. I do not support the first amendment in this group, which locks them in, but I believe that the second one is a reasonable proposal, which honours the principle that we reluctantly have accepted; but, having accepted it, I think we should be gracious about it.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, I support the first amendment for reasons of principle, about which the noble Lords have spoken. The principle of equality is very important. It seems to me that, in Committee, the Minister was unable to respond with any arguments at all based on principle. They were purely pragmatic arguments, which I do not think noble Lords found very convincing.
Amendment 84A, which I support, is very much in line with the recommendation of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which argued that,
“we consider that the Government should carry out a full review of pension provisions in relation to survivor pension benefit entitlements of same sex married couples and civil partners to ensure that there is no unjustifiable discrimination in pension scheme provisions”.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I have added my name to manuscript Amendment 84A, tabled by my noble friend Lord Alli, because we believe that this is the most sensible course of action at this stage. Like my noble friend, we want to ensure that there is no discrimination in the Bill and that there are not two tiers of marriage. I, too, am extremely grateful to the Minister for managing to arrange a meeting with the Pensions Minister yesterday.
We have always accepted that there would be some direct cost to private pension schemes. However, £18 million, which is the figure often quoted, is a drop in the ocean for schemes worth an estimated £76.4 billion. The Government have asserted that equalising pensions benefits for civil partners and married couples of the same sex after this Bill could leave the public sector liable for costs of up to £3 billion to £4 billion. However, they have been far more reluctant to explain where those costs might come from.
As my noble friend said, the Government have already acted to equalise survivor benefit entitlements for civil partners with those of widowers for public sector and contracted-out schemes. The £3 billion to £4 billion estimate is based on the assumption that the removal of the legal exemption for civil partners will leave the Government being forced to equalise the entitlements of widowers with widows, thus levelling everyone back to 1978. But why they believe this to be a significant risk remains unclear.
The 1978/1988 distinction between widowers and widows was based on the historic position of women as being largely dependent on their husbands for income. Indeed, the courts have only recently upheld this distinction in the case of R v Iain Cockburn and Secretary of State for Health, where the judge ruled that there was an “objective and reasonable justification” for this because there had been, as the Government argued, a progressive realisation of gender equality and the initial rules had been set up to recognise the weaker economic position of widows.
Without the provision within this Bill, female spouses of same-sex marriages would, we presume, simply be treated as widows for the purposes of survivor benefits and male survivors as widowers. But nothing in my noble friend’s Amendment 84 would affect the historic male/female distinction that the courts have so recently upheld. To argue against this on the basis of retrospectivity is also flawed as the Government violated this principle themselves when levelling civil partners back to the entitlements of widowers, as they quite rightly did for public service pensions and contracted-out schemes.
In some sense, it could be said that by creating a different entitlement for widows and widowers of same-sex marriages from those of opposite-sex couples the Government are actually weakening their case against future challenges to widow/widower distinction. However, despite agreeing with my noble friend that the Government’s argument here is extremely tenuous, we want to offer the Government an opportunity to remove this inequality in the most appropriate way, as noble Lords on the Benches opposite have also said, and that is why I have added my name to the manuscript amendment today.
By voting for Amendment 84A, noble Lords will be saying, “We are not happy about the provisions within the Bill as it stands so we are leaving them there in parenthesis, as it were, for now until the Government have come forward with firm proposals for how to deal with this clear inequality”. It is quite clear to us that, one way or another, the Government will have to sort this out. It is better to do this through a process that they can own rather than be forced by the courts to do it later, as undoubtedly they would have to do.
I urge the Minister to accept Amendment 84A. I realise that the Government may well have to come back with tweaks at Third Reading but we want to right this inequality and this is a very fine way forward. It gives the Government some space to reflect, to look, to review and then come back, using the order-making power, to get rid of this inequality. I trust that the Minister will be able to accept this amendment.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I must first say to my noble friend Lord Elton that I am in charge of many things at the moment, but one thing I am not in charge of is flooding. I would rather not add that to my portfolio for now. Before I respond in detail to the debate, I need to make a correction to the figures previously used by the Government in debates on this issue, about the number of schemes using the Equality Act exception relating to civil partners. The Government had stated that two-thirds of private occupational pension schemes already go further than the 2005 exception. This is incorrect. The correct figure is one-third. However, this does not change the estimated £18 million increase in liabilities that would arise from removing this exception, as that was already based on one-third of schemes.
The pensions system as a whole is full of differences in treatment as a result of changes in society and social attitudes. Such changes are introduced prospectively, so as not to place new unfunded burdens on pension schemes which could not have been taken into consideration in their funding assumptions. The current Equality Act exception, which this Bill also applies to people in same-sex marriages, recognises that pension outcomes in the present always reflect different accruals in the past, and that changes should be forward looking, rather than be retrospective.
Governments of all parties have sought to equalise pensions over time. What they have not done is try to equalise pension outcomes in the present, thereby breaking the link between past accruals and present outcomes. The standard approach is based on the principle that it is not right to impose costs on schemes, meaning they would have to pay out new amounts that were not promised in the past, whatever the exact scale of those costs.
Avoiding imposing retrospective costs on pension schemes is the standard principled approach which has been taken by successive Governments. That is the approach the previous Government took when civil partnerships were introduced in 2005, and when they brought forward the Equality Act in 2010. That is the approach we have taken in this Bill, by aligning the pension position of same-sex married couples with that of civil partners.
This approach means that pension schemes take time to catch up with societal changes, but over time the anomalies reduce and eventually disappear. Making any change to the position set out in the Bill would mean placing retrospective costs on the schemes. The Government understand that the current position is not perfect, but it is based on the principle that we should not seek to impose retrospective costs on private pension schemes—costs that were not planned for when benefits were being accrued.
The noble Lord, Lord Alli, seemed to try to dismiss the arguments that I was going to put forward before I had even had the opportunity to do so, but the Government’s case is quite clear. It is a strong one and I shall go through it properly. The two amendments in this group have different effects, as we have already established. Amendment 84, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Alli, would mean employers having to pay survivor benefits to civil partners in respect of their deceased spouse’s service prior to 2005, when civil partnerships first became possible. This amendment does not meet what I believe the noble Lord is trying to achieve, which is to give parity in provision of survivor benefits between same-sex married couples and opposite-sex married couples.
As well as going against the standard principled approach of avoiding imposing retrospective unfunded burdens, removing the current exception in the Equality Act would potentially lead to a much wider range of discrimination claims against pension schemes. There would be a significant risk of a domino effect, leading to full equalisation of survivor benefits at a significant cost to schemes and the taxpayer. The noble Lord, Lord Alli, said that no public money would be required to make this change. I disagree.
In addition to its impact on private sector schemes, the amendment would also impose a direct cost on public service schemes which would, at least, have to pay survivor benefits to surviving female civil partners based on pre-1988 service. This is because if the amendment were passed, not paying benefits to surviving female civil partners based on pre-1988 service would be discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. To remove any such discrimination, public sector schemes would have to equalise pension benefits for surviving female civil partners and same-sex married couples with those for widows which are based on accruals from 1978. At the moment, benefits for those female survivors are currently based on accruals from 1988. Therefore, there is an immediate cost to the taxpayer.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
I may be wrong but is it not the case that there was retrospectivity to give effect to the EU principle of equal pay for equal work?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My noble friend introduces a new, very complicated matter and I am struggling with the complicated matters in front of me.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I am going to conclude very soon. Would my noble friend allow me to make some final remarks?
Lord Higgins
This seems to be the appropriate point to interrupt the very clear exposition my noble friend is making. I put this case to her: there is a company that had a final salary scheme for existing members and then, later in time, introduced a defined contribution scheme. The people in the defined contribution scheme cannot get all the benefits in the original scheme. None the less, the people under this retrospective legislation would be able to do so. They would be more privileged than the people in the existing defined contribution scheme.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
That is an interesting point. My understanding of Amendment 84 is that its proposals would only apply to those who are currently in a defined benefit scheme. This is not about introducing the benefits of a defined benefits scheme to those who are only in a defined contribution scheme. I do not think that what my noble friend is suggesting is what is proposed in the noble Lord’s amendment.
As I have tried to explain, any change to the arrangements set out in the Bill would impose costs on the public purse, which would be considerable. The House should therefore be aware that any change to the position set out in the Bill would have a cost to the public purse, so an amendment to the Bill on this issue would infringe the House of Commons’ financial privilege.
Lord Alli
I was with the noble Baroness up to that point. I really think that the Government cannot say that there is a public cost, money coming out of the Treasury, for a section of the Bill marked “Part 6: Occupational Pensions and Survivor Benefits”, at page 36, which is limited to occupational pension schemes only. There is no public money, and the Government cannot say that there is. It is so clear that the House should not be put in a position of believing that public money is being spent on this.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I hope that I have been able to explain through my answer so far that there is a cost to the public purse in Amendment 84. Therefore, the amendment would infringe the House of Commons’ financial privilege. I have explained to the House why the Government believe that that is so.
Given the potential uncertainty and scale of these costs, we should be clear about what the implications and costs of the change might be before we make any legislative commitment in this area. I think that we can agree that this debate demonstrates the need for us all to be much better informed about the wider implications of equalising entitlement to survivors’ rights. Some of the points made by my noble friends Lord Higgins and Lady Noakes demonstrate that there are issues which need proper and careful consideration.
All that said, I can see the sense in what the noble Lord, Lord Alli, is trying to achieve via manuscript Amendment 84A that he has tabled today, which includes a review and order-making powers. I am grateful to him for reflecting further following the meeting we had yesterday with the Pensions Minister, my honourable friend Steve Webb.
I am conscious of the strength of feeling that has been expressed in this debate, and have considered the points that have been made very carefully. While I cannot accept the noble Lord’s amendment in its form today, I am willing to take it away and discuss it further with my ministerial colleagues with the firm intention of bringing back a government amendment at Third Reading. I therefore hope that the noble Lord, Lord Alli, will feel that he need not move Amendment 84A today.
Lord Alli
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that answer. Before I move on, I will add a few things. It took eight minutes before all five of my responses were used. I mention that because this is a very complex area—I accept that. However, there is a lot of smoke here. The issue that most concerns me, and the reason why I intervened, is that there is no public money. I say that having looked very deeply into this issue. To those in Committee, I said that I had the honour at the beginning of my career to be the publisher of Pensions magazine, Savings Market and Insurance Age. Therefore, I have spent time understanding the pensions market. The £2 billion to £3 billion to which the Government refer is about taking out the gender discrimination between widows and widowers. Recent judgments have upheld that principle. It has nothing to do with occupational pension schemes.
The second correction that I wanted to make was on the issue about the Civil Partnership Act and why it was put in place. Under the Civil Partnership Act, there is no corresponding civil partnership for straight people, so the read-across between opposite-sex couples and same-sex couples did not apply with civil partnerships. In this instance there is a read-across of a prejudicial treatment of two types of married spouses. That is my concern.
The final issue is that the cost is so minimal—£18 million at the low end and £80 million at the high end. The actuarial assumptions are so hard to make. Actuaries, in my experience, do not build the cost of gay people into their schemes. They do not look at whether someone is straight or gay and discount the rate. Historically, they do not go back and say, “Some gay people will have married because history allowed them to do so or society forced them to do so”. I am fairly sure that the actuarial calculations will remain pretty static. Those are the issues involved.
I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate and given support. In particular, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, and the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, for adding their support to Amendment 84. I also thank my noble friend Lady Royall of Blaisdon for adding her name and support to Amendment 84A. Of course, I also thank the Minister. We have all been on a huge educational process on pensions; I fear that there may be another week of pensions mania, for which I deeply apologise. I thank her for her response; it is what the House had hoped to hear and I am very pleased with it. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 84.
“Legislative definitions
(1) For the purposes of legislation regulating or relating to marriage—
(a) there shall no difference or distinction be made between lawful marriage of same sex couples and lawful marriage between a man and a woman, save as provided for in this Act or as required to give effect to any difference or distinction which is made necessary by reason of physiological or biological differences of gender or consequences thereof;(b) where it is necessary to make legislative provision regulating or relating to marriages between same sex couples but not marriages between a man or a woman, or marriages between a man and a woman but not marriages between same sex couples, lawful marriage between same sex couples may be defined as same sex marriage, lawful marriages between same sex couples may be defined as same sex marriages, lawful marriage between a man and a woman may be defined as opposite sex marriage and lawful marriages between a man and a woman may be defined as opposite sex marriages;(c) all legislation regulating or relating to marriage having effect before the passage of this Act continues in effect in relation to opposite sex marriages save as varied or modified by any provision of this Act;(d) the Secretary of State or the Lord Chancellor may by order vary, modify or repeal legislation regulating or relating to opposite sex marriage, if it appears that such variation, modification or repeal is required as a consequence of the passage of this Act.”
Lord Armstrong of Ilminster
My Lords, I move the amendment standing in my name and in the names of my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern and my noble friends Lady Williams of Crosby and Lord Lea of Crondall—if a Cross-Bencher may be allowed to have noble friends in all parts of the House.
What are the purposes of this amendment? The preamble makes it clear that it is limited to legislation regulating or relating to marriage. The primary purpose of the Bill is, I take it, to enable same-sex couples to be married, to enjoy the same rights and privileges and be subject to the same laws, duties and obligations as married man-and-woman couples already enjoy and are subject to. On Monday, the Minister said that,
“there is one institution of marriage and we are opening the door to it … There will be only one door and all couples will be invited to walk through it”.—[Official Report, 8/7/13; col. 33.]
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, some of the amendments moved in the course of our debates have been eccentric. However, respectfully, I should say that Amendment 85 is among the most eccentric, not least because of its very distinguished authors—a former Cabinet Secretary, a Lord Chancellor and my noble friend Lady Williams of Crosby, whose deeply held religious convictions as a Catholic I fully respect.
Leaving aside its extraordinary length and detail, Amendment 85 is moved in the face of the overwhelming and decisive decisions made by the House on Monday to reject similar attempts to classify and separate opposite-sex and same-sex marriages. In paragraph (a), the amendment declares that,
“there shall no difference or distinction be made between lawful marriage of same sex couples and lawful marriage between a man and a woman, save as provided for in this Act”.
If the amendment stopped there, it would be completely unobjectionable although also completely unnecessary, but it does not stop there. It continues by making an exception,
“as required to give effect to any difference or distinction which is made necessary by reason of physiological or biological differences of gender or consequences thereof”.
It is probably my fault, but I do not understand what that is meant to mean. Most men and most women are biologically different and sexual intercourse between a man and woman, a man and a man and a woman and a woman may reflect those differences of biology and anatomy, but how do those differences require future or existing law regulating or relating to marriage to treat traditional, conjugal and new consensual marriage differently? We are beyond the watershed for children, and I shall be grateful for an explanation of what this has to do with the law rather than the Kama Sutra.
Paragraph (b) seeks to separate the two forms of marriage using about 100 words instead of a bracket. We have already firmly rejected that attempt; I respectfully ask what the point is of rehearsing the arguments again and again.
Paragraph (c) is unnecessary because it goes, or should go, without saying, that existing legislation will continue in effect in relation to opposite-sex marriages except as amended by the Bill. As to paragraph (d), given the vague obscurity of the earlier parts of the amendment, its meaning and effect would puzzle Henry VIII and his Lord Chancellor as well as the current holder of that high office. If the noble Lord tests the opinion of the House, I hope that the amendment will be rejected.
Lord Pannick
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, though possibly not in relation to the Kama Sutra. The point being made by the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong of Ilminster, as I understood it, was that provision should be made in this Bill to confer power to address problems that may arise in consequence of this Bill when enacted. Of course, Clause 15(2) already does that. It says:
“The Secretary of State or Lord Chancellor may, by order, make such provision as the Secretary of State or Lord Chancellor considers appropriate in consequence of this Act”.
For the avoidance of doubt, Clause 15(3) states that any such provision that may be made,
“includes provision amending UK legislation”.
That would seem to me amply to address any concerns.
Lord Deben
Perhaps I may say just one thing because I was attacked—not attacked, but charmingly referred to—by the noble Baroness, who said that I was being a bit jokey about adultery. I really was not being jokey about adultery. I think that I am coming back to my mother again on this. What is being proposed here is another version of the amendments that we have had all along. This one says: “We cannot find anything at the moment, but we might find something in the future. So in case we do find something in the future, we will put something in at the moment—and by the way, that means that we can point to the thing that we put in at the moment, which shows that there is a difference, and that is what we meant in the first place”. I am not a lawyer but, if I may dare say to the two noble lawyers who went before me, I do not need to refer to the law. All I can say is that this is one of the most ingenious attempts that we have had so far. I do not think that they can do it again, but it is another go. Even if it has been charmingly presented by the noble Lord with such elegance and beautiful English, for which we all honour him, the fact is that it will not wash. It is another go. Let us not take it, and if it is voted on, let us increase the majority to more than the 200 that we had last time.
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Deben, that this is an elegant amendment. However, although it might be bracket free, it has an awful lot of commas and sub-clauses. I have listened very carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, and the supporters of this amendment who did not speak but are distinguished Members of your Lordships’ House, to see whether there are new arguments to justify passing an amendment that would—like the ones that we discussed on Monday and in Committee—undermine the purpose of the Bill, which is to put same-sex marriage on the same basis as opposite-sex marriage, and although I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, for this ingenious amendment which seeks to undermine the Bill through secondary legislation, its effects are the same as those of the amendments that went before. I am still puzzled as to why those noble Lords feel that same-sex marriage somehow undermines opposite-sex marriage and, indeed, their own.
We do not believe that the Bill needs to provide for two classes of marriage—one gold and one base, which would be the effect of the amendment—but we do feel that the time has perhaps come to stop having this argument. I and my colleagues will not support the amendment.
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong of Ilminster, for his amendment. I think that we were all very grateful to him on Monday evening when, in view of the hour, he decided to degroup it so that we could debate it today.
Even allowing for the intervening hours, however, it will not come as a surprise to the noble Lord or to anyone else that we do not feel able to accept this amendment however—to use my noble friend Lord Deben’s word—ingenious or, as my noble friend Lord Lester said, extraordinary it is. As the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said, it contains within it, in paragraph (b), the same distinction between a marriage of a same-sex couple and a marriage of an opposite-sex couple that was embodied in Amendment 1—admittedly without the brackets, although I am not sure if it is for better or for worse.
The amendment which my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved sought to have two different institutions of marriage in law: one for same-sex couples and one for opposite-sex couples. As my noble friend Lord Deben said, this is another attempt. In all fairness to my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, when moving his amendment on Monday he said:
“This is the minimum that seems to work, although I and other noble Lords think that it may be possible to go further. The later amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, to which I and others have added our names, indeed goes further than the minimum”.—[Official Report, 8/7/13; cols. 13-14]
Lord Armstrong of Ilminster
My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have taken part in this brief debate. I did not expect to please the noble Lord, Lord Lester, but I do not myself think that the amendment deserves the obloquy that he attempts to throw upon it. None the less, given the views that have been expressed, I do not think that it would be right to force a Division. Therefore, with some regret, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, in moving Amendment 86, I will speak also to the other government amendments in this group. I am pleased to have this opportunity to talk about a group affected by the Bill who are often overlooked in our debates—that is, those men and women who are transgender. I would like to put on record my thanks to all those who have sent me many e-mails over the past few days.
This Bill will, for the first time, enable couples who wish to remain married when one spouse obtains gender recognition to do so. This is a welcome development for transpeople who have in the past been faced with the difficult choice between obtaining gender recognition or staying in their marriage. Although the Government do not believe that it is justified, I none the less understand that there is a real fear among some transpeople that the Bill will allow their spouse to veto their attempt to get a full gender recognition certificate, if they do not wish to remain married.
I have listened very carefully to the views that have been expressed in Committee and in meetings with noble Lords about this issue. Indeed, I am very grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton and Lady Gould, and to my noble friend Lady Barker, who made time to discuss their concerns with me in some depth. Having done so, I am grateful for the opportunity, through Amendments 87 and 88, to make clear that all the non-trans spouse is being asked to give their consent to is whether they wish to remain married if their spouse changes their legal gender.
It is important to explain why this consent is needed, because some people have questioned why the consent of a non-trans spouse is needed in these circumstances. The reason is this: a party to a marriage obtaining gender recognition is a life-changing decision for the applicant and their spouse. The marriage will no longer be contracted between a husband and a wife of the opposite legal gender, which is why it is right that both spouses have the right to agree to a proposal to change the terms of their marriage before the change takes place.
Regardless of the non-trans spouse's view about the future of the marriage, the applicant is still able to get their gender recognition. Transpeople whose spouses do not give their consent to remaining in the marriage will be in the same position as they are now: it will be open to either spouse to commence proceedings to end the marriage before the full gender recognition certificate is issued. I am very pleased to table these amendments, which I hope will put it beyond any doubt that a spouse will never be able to veto a trans applicant’s ability to obtain gender recognition. I hope that these amendments, which make it clear what both parties to the marriage are agreeing to, will allay the concerns that have been expressed. I commend these amendments to the House.
As to Amendments 86, 89 and 133, I said in Committee that the Government have been considering carefully what can be achieved within the scope of this Bill to assist transpeople who made their transition to their acquired gender a long time ago but have not applied for gender recognition up to now because they would have had to end their marriage. The Bill now gives such people the opportunity to obtain gender recognition while remaining married, if their spouse is content for the marriage to continue. However, applicants who made their transition a long time ago may find it difficult to obtain the required medical reports from gender dysphoria specialists.
These amendments will assist such applicants by making the new fast-track procedure available to transpeople who are or were in protected marriages or civil partnerships and who transitioned six years prior to the commencement of these provisions and by reducing the amount of medical evidence they will be required to submit to the gender recognition panel. Such applicants for gender recognition will be required to submit one medical report, either from any medical practitioner, including a GP, or from a registered psychologist who practises in the field of gender dysphoria.
I can assure the House that a great deal of time and consideration has gone into developing these amendments and I hope that they further demonstrate the positive changes the Bill is seeking to make to the lives of married transpeople. I therefore commend them to the House.
Baroness Gould of Potternewton
My Lords, I begin by thanking the Minister for her tolerance and forbearance throughout our discussions on this very complex issue and for taking the time to meet me and the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton and Lady Barker, to see if it was possible to arrive at a common view. Before looking at how successful our talks were, I want to say, on behalf of the trans community, how much we appreciate the inclusion in the Bill of the clauses that remove anomalies in respect of married transpeople who wish to apply for recognition by removing the requirement for them to be single at the point of gender recognition and so removing the obligation to dissolve their existing marriage or civil partnership. Equally important to the community is the concession on spouses’ survivor pensions, ensuring that no ongoing financial penalties will be incurred should a transperson in an existing marriage gain gender recognition. The Minister has just referred to the fast-track procedure, which is also very much appreciated.
However, there came a little disappointment because we have been unable to resolve the concerns over spousal consent. We appreciate that the amendments that the Minister has outlined clarify the position in respect of married couples and the definition of a statutory declaration of consent. However, in reality, it makes little difference in terms of that consent; the divorced would probably not be en route to registering a civil partnership. It makes little difference for the transperson. It does not really matter if the spouse is going to consent to the marriage or give consent for recognition. The principle thrust of opposition to the schedule remains unchanged.
There was a temptation to try to arrive at a further amendment that might resolve the differences between us, but that would have required a lot of detailed discussion and deliberation. Although I am not wholly happy with what we have in front of us, I suppose that it is, in some ways, a step in the right direction, which I acknowledge. I hope that there may be another opportunity for that discussion to take place and, when it does, I hope that the Minister will again be co-operative, as she has been, in trying to resolve our differences.
This is almost certainly the unfinished business of the Bill. There is no doubt that the transgender community is angry and will continue to be angry until we manage to achieve some resolution of the problem because its members remain concerned that the Bill provides a spousal veto. Therefore, at this stage, I seek the Minister’s assurance that after the Bill becomes law this issue will be considered in post-legislative scrutiny.
Baroness Barker
My Lords, I freely confess that one of the happiest days of my life was when I gave up speaking on pensions matters in your Lordships’ House. I never thought that I would come across anything more complex until we came to this legislation. This is not necessarily a complex issue, but when the Minister talks about a fast-track procedure, she is talking about a procedure that has gone on for at least two years. That is the level of difficulty. I thank the Minister. She, like the rest of us, has been on a very fast learning curve and has dealt with these issues with great sensitivity and dedication.
The noble Baroness, Lady Gould, is right; we are perhaps 90% in agreement. The people directly affected by this issue are grateful for the advances made in the Bill. I am sure that the very small number of people who will be directly affected by Amendment 89—people who have not gone through the process of acquiring a full gender recognition certificate because they would have had to divorce their spouse to do so—will be extremely pleased. I am pleased to be accompanied by a number of Bishops today, and I think it is apt to say that one of the couples who I know will be directly affected are active members of their church. Their marriage was very important to them and they did not wish it to be broken up in these circumstances. We have enabled a small number of people to live their lives with greater dignity. That is important.
The noble Baroness, Lady Gould, is right; people in the transgender community believe that there is still a possibility that spouses who are very angry and upset will retain the capacity to delay the process of divorce and therefore of obtaining gender recognition for some time, mostly by starting divorce proceedings and then not actioning them. That remains an issue. I agree with the noble Baroness that we have probably gone as far as we can in the Bill and that the issue is perhaps something to which we should return in post-legislative scrutiny.
The Bill has achieved an important step forward for a small number of people who, in the course of their ordinary lives, put up with an awful lot of hostility. We have made their lives a bit better and enabled them to live with a little more dignity. For that, this House should be very proud of what it has done.
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, government Amendments 86, 87, 88, 89 and 133 will provide a fast-track procedure for gender recognition where individuals have been living in the acquired gender for a long period and clarify that the consent of a spouse means consent to the marriage continuing, not consent to gender recognition. There is no doubt that we wholeheartedly welcome these amendments; we would like to put on record our thanks to the Minister and her team for the amount of work that they have put in on this issue.
This is an issue that colleagues in both Houses have been pushing throughout the Bill’s passage, and we have made progress with the Government on pensions and the fast-track procedure. However, as my noble friend Lady Gould has said, consent is a very sensitive issue, and the transgender community has reacted with outrage at the idea that their final recognition through gender recognition certificates should or possibly could be vetoed by their spouse, particularly if they were estranged or if the relationship had broken down.
Like the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and my noble friend Lady Gould, we think we have made great progress, but this issue is unresolved and a community that has faced enormous discrimination and prejudice is very concerned about it. We need to keep a watching brief on this issue, and we will need to return to it, certainly in post-legislative scrutiny, if not in another Bill that comes along in which we can find some other way of doing it.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Baronesses who have contributed to this debate, who are the same noble Baronesses who I have met to discuss these matters.
I will be very brief in responding to the points that have been made. The noble Baroness, Lady Gould, raised the question of post-legislative scrutiny. I certainly expect the Bill’s impact to be considered and that the issue of spousal content will be part of that process. That would be a matter of form, so I can give some reassurance in that regard at least.
My noble friend Lady Barker mentioned the fast-track procedure and the length of time. The fast-track procedure reduces the amount of evidence that a transperson must submit to the gender recognition panel. Therefore it saves them from having to obtain new, additional evidence, which may be difficult and time-consuming. It does not affect the length of time from application to the issue of the gender recognition certificate; it is about the process prior to that point.
In concluding, I want to say how grateful I am for the generous remarks that have been made and to remind all noble Lords that the Bill is about allowing same-sex couples to marry. We have allowed transpeople who are already married to stay married. That is an enormously positive step forward, and we should not lose sight of that. However, it is worth pointing out also that because those transpeople are already married, it is essential that both spouses confirm that they want to remain married because their marriage is a legal contract that will change. When we get married—although, as we all know, I am not married. I have been to weddings, even if I have not had one of my own—on our wedding day we take somebody to be either our lawfully wedded wife or our lawfully wedded husband. That is a legal contract between two people. This Bill has enabled us to ensure that if one of those people is transgender and wants to have transgender recognition, they are able to do that and to remain married to the person who they fell in love with and married some years before. That is an important thing that we have been able to make happen. I take on board the points that have been made in the debate, but I am pleased that we are at least able to acknowledge the big step forward that this Bill will allow us to take.
“Part 2Alternative grounds for granting applications for gender recognition certificatesIntroduction15 The Gender Recognition Act 2004 is amended in accordance with this Part of this Schedule.
Alternative grounds for granting applications16 Section 2 (determination of applications): after subsection (3) insert—
“(3A) This section does not apply to an application under section 1(1)(a) which states that it is an application for a certificate to be granted in accordance with section 3A.”
17 After section 3 insert—
“3A Alternative grounds for granting applications
(1) This section applies to an application under section 1(1)(a) which states that it is an application for a certificate to be granted in accordance with this section.
(2) The Panel must grant the application if satisfied that the applicant complies with the requirements imposed by and under section 3B and meets the conditions in subsections (3) to (6).
(3) The first condition is that the applicant was a party to a protected marriage or a protected civil partnership on or before the date the application was made.
(4) The second condition is that the applicant—
(a) was living in the acquired gender six years before the commencement of section 12 of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013,(b) continued to live in the acquired gender until the date the application was made, and(c) intends to continue to live in the acquired gender until death.(5) The third condition is that the applicant—
(a) has or has had gender dysphoria, or(b) has undergone surgical treatment for the purpose of modifying sexual characteristics.(6) The fourth condition is that the applicant is ordinarily resident in England, Wales or Scotland.
(7) The Panel must reject the application if not required by subsection (2) to grant it.”
Evidence for granting applications on alternative grounds18 Section 3 (evidence): after subsection (8) insert—
“(9) This section does not apply to an application under section 1(1)(a) which states that it is an application for a certificate to be granted in accordance with section 3A.”
19 After section 3A (inserted by paragraph 17) insert—
“3B Evidence for granting applications on alternative grounds
(1) This section applies to an application under section 1(1)(a) which states that it is an application for a certificate to be granted in accordance with section 3A.
(2) The application must include either—
(a) a report made by a registered medical practitioner, or (b) a report made by a registered psychologist practising in the field of gender dysphoria.(3) If the application is based on the applicant having or having had gender dysphoria—
(a) the reference in subsection (2) to a registered medical practitioner is to one practising in the field of gender dysphoria, and(b) that subsection is not complied with unless the report includes details of the diagnosis of the applicant’s gender dysphoria. (4) Subsection (2) is not complied with in a case where—
(a) the applicant has undergone or is undergoing treatment for the purpose of modifying sexual characteristics, or(b) treatment for that purpose has been prescribed or planned for the applicant,unless the report required by that subsection includes details of it.(5) The application must also include a statutory declaration by the applicant that the applicant meets the conditions in section 3A(3) and (4).
(6) The application must include—
(a) a statutory declaration as to whether or not the applicant is married or a civil partner,(b) any other information or evidence required by an order made by the Secretary of State, and(c) any other information or evidence which the Panel which is to determine the application may require,and may include any other information or evidence which the applicant wishes to include.(7) If the applicant is married, the application must include a statutory declaration as to whether the marriage is a marriage under the law of England and Wales, of Scotland, of Northern Ireland, or of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom.
(8) If the applicant is married, and the marriage is a protected marriage, the application must also include—
(a) a statutory declaration of consent by the applicant’s spouse (if the spouse has made such a declaration), or(b) a statutory declaration by the applicant that the applicant’s spouse has not made a statutory declaration of consent (if that is the case).(9) If the application includes a statutory declaration of consent by the applicant’s spouse, the Panel must give the spouse notice that the application has been made.
(10) If the Panel which is to determine the application requires information or evidence under subsection (6)(c) it must give reasons for doing so.”.
Membership of Panels determining applications on alternative grounds20 Schedule 1 (Gender Recognition Panels), paragraph 4: after sub-paragraph (2) insert—
“(3) But a Panel need not include a medical member when determining an application under section 1(1)(a) for a certificate to be granted in accordance with section 3A.”.”
“Marriage according to the usages of belief organisations
(1) The Secretary of State must arrange for a review of—
(a) whether an order under subsection (4) should be made permitting marriages according to the usages of belief organisations to be solemnized on the authority of certificates of a superintendent registrar, and(b) if so, what provision should be included in the order.(2) The arrangements made by the Secretary of State under subsection (1) must provide for the review to include a full public consultation.
(3) The Secretary of State must arrange for a report on the outcome of the review to be produced and published before 1 January 2015.
(4) The Secretary of State may by order make provision for and in connection with permitting marriages according to the usages of belief organisations to be solemnized on the authority of certificates of a superintendent registrar.
(5) An order under subsection (4) may—
(a) amend any England and Wales legislation;(b) make provision for the charging of fees.(6) An order under subsection (4) must provide that no religious service may be used at a marriage which is solemnized in pursuance of the order.
(7) In this section “belief organisation” means an organisation whose principal or sole purpose is the advancement of a system of non-religious beliefs which relate to morality or ethics.”
“(2) An Order in Council may, in particular, make provision—
(a) prohibiting the solemnization of such marriages according to particular religious rites or usages; or(b) permitting the solemnization of such marriages according to particular religious rites or usages.“(2A) Sub-paragraph (2)(b) is subject to sub-paragraphs (2B) and (2C).
(2B) An Order in Council may not make provision allowing the solemnization of forces marriages of same sex couples according to the rites of the Church of England or Church in Wales.
(2C) If an Order in Council makes provision allowing the solemnization of forces marriages of same sex couples according to particular religious rites or usages (other than those of the Church of England or Church in Wales), the Order in Council must also make provision to secure that such a marriage may not be solemnized according to those rites or usages unless the relevant governing authority has given written consent to marriages of same sex couples.
(2D) The person or persons who are the relevant governing body for that purpose are to be determined in accordance with provision made by an Order in Council under this Part of this Schedule.”
“(4) If section 8 applies, the Lord Chancellor may, by order, make such relevant amending provision as the Lord Chancellor considers appropriate to allow for the solemnization of forces marriages of same sex couples according to the rites of the Church in Wales.
(5) For that purpose “relevant amending provision” means—
(a) provision amending sub-paragraphs (2B) and (2C) by omitting the words “or Church in Wales”;(b) provision amending any Order in Council made under this Part of this Schedule;(c) provision amending any other UK legislation (including legislation contained in this Part of this Schedule).(6) In making an order under sub-paragraph (4), the Lord Chancellor must have regard to the terms of the resolution of the Governing Body of the Church in Wales referred to in section 8(1).”
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, government Amendments 93 and 128 to 132 amend provisions in the Bill relating to marriage in consulates and on Armed Forces bases overseas to exclude their effect in relation to Northern Ireland. Clause 13 repeals the Foreign Marriage Act 1892 which applies UK-wide. Schedule 6 makes provision to replace that regime of consular and Armed Forces marriages overseas with a new regime providing for marriages of both opposite-sex and same-sex couples in consulates and on Armed Forces bases.
The legislative consent Motion concerning the Bill which the Northern Ireland Assembly agreed on 24 June does not cover Clause 13 or Schedule 6. In light of the terms of that legislative consent Motion, these amendments amend the extent provisions of the Bill so that the relevant provisions which would fall under the Northern Ireland Assembly’s legislative competence do not extend to Northern Ireland. The effect of these amendments is that opposite-sex and same-sex couples marrying under the law of England and Wales in consulates and on Armed Forces bases overseas will be married under new procedures to be introduced by an Order in Council to be made under Schedule 6. These new procedures will also apply to opposite-sex couples marrying under the law of Scotland, and in due course to same-sex couples as and when the law in Scotland is changed to allow them to marry.
However, couples marrying under the law of Northern Ireland will marry under the existing legislative framework; namely, the Foreign Marriage Act 1892. This will mean that those officiating in marriages overseas will have to operate two distinct systems when conducting marriages depending on whether they are marriages under the law of England, Wales or Scotland on the one hand, or the law of Northern Ireland on the other. While this will add to the complexity of the system, it is a consequence of the Northern Ireland Assembly not having given legislative consent to the relevant provisions in the Bill, and so to be consistent with the convention we must make amendments to reflect that.
Perhaps I may turn to government Amendment 106 in this group. It is a technical amendment which provides for the definition of “England and Wales legislation” used in the Bill also to be applied to the Marriage Act 1949. The amendment inserts an interpretation provision for the definition into that Act. Finally, government Amendment 125 is minor and technical. It adds the definition of “superintendent registrar” to the list of defined expressions already set out in Clause 17(2). This is necessary for completeness.
I commend these amendments as they will improve the Bill and I hope that your Lordships will feel able to support them.
Baroness Deech
“(1A) The review under subsection (1) must deal with the case for amending the criteria in the Civil Partnership Act 2004 which define the eligibility of people to register as civil partners.
(1B) The review must in particular consider—
(a) the case for extending such eligibility to—(i) unpaid carers and those they care for, and(ii) family members who share a house,provided that they have cohabitated for 5 years or more and are over the age of eighteen, and (b) the case for creating a new legal status that would confer all the benefits of civil partnerships upon those mentioned in paragraph (a) without amending the criteria for eligibility for civil partnership.”
Baroness Deech
My Lords, my noble and learned friend Lord Lloyd, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain, and the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, have added their names to this amendment. I will not repeat the arguments that I made in Committee save to remind your Lordships that I am seizing this opportunity, which has presented itself in no other Bill or foreseeable Bill, to extend the hand of equality and a glimmer of hope of support to the thousands—mostly women; this could be a gender issue—of people who are siblings and have lived together for many years. I also want to help carers, who are often but not always family members, where the younger people have cared for the older ones for many years, but who then find themselves in a bad situation when the older ones die. We now have a chance to recognise and assist them through the study which the Government have already committed to carrying out in the context of civil partnerships.
It was admitted in the European court in Strasbourg that the situation is discriminatory, but it was held that the Government were justified in this discrimination because they had placed the advantages of marriage firmly in one area and nowhere else. The justification for the discrimination that exists against people living together in a co-dependent, supportive and loving arrangement has gone. The Berlin Wall of marriage has come tumbling down and there are others who are coming out who need our help and support in the name of equality.
This is not merely about money, albeit that a great deal of time has been spent on financial arrangements and pensions in the past few days. It is not just about money—it is about the advantages conferred by marriage and civil partnership and, shortly, same-sex marriage. That means the right to live in a home, pensions, medical consent, responsibilities and rights in relation to children and many other rights and obligations attaching to that status.
If noble Lords read the amendment carefully, they will see that I am not pressing for a change in the law in this Bill; I am merely asking that the Government study the situation when they undertake a review of civil partnerships, as they have pledged to do. I cannot imagine anyone hard-hearted enough to block this, although I gather that the Government are not sympathetic, and I fail to understand why. Certain objections to this amendment were voiced at Second Reading and in Committee. The opponents of same-sex marriage argued a while ago that its existence would undermine traditional marriage. This was stoutly denied by, inter alia, the noble Baronesses, Lady Royall and Lady Barker, and the noble Lords, Lord Marks and Lord Alli. Why, they said, should recognising the existence of one union have any impact, let alone an adverse one, on another, causing the older union to be less respected or more fragile? Their arguments were, and are, persuasive. If recognising same-sex marriage has no impact on heterosexual marriage, then recognising a union, contract or arrangement of some sort for siblings and carers likewise can have absolutely no impact on same-sex marriage.
I am not arguing for an exact same union—far from it. The amendment suggests that a formal contract or union could be established which in no way detracts from civil partnerships as they exist now and has no religious connotation or connection. For example, in France, a pacte civil de solidarité—known as “PACS”—exists for some heterosexual couples and same-sex couples; it has most of the advantages and status of marriage, but can be terminated very readily by a letter from one to the other or by a marriage entered into by one of the two. It is popular. It presents a model for adaptation.
The noble Lord, Lord Alli, argued in Committee that lending a helping hand to siblings and carers would devalue civil partnerships. I said then, and I repeat, “I do not get it”. Not only do I not understand the fears and what seems like protectionism of those able to succeed in achieving a same-sex marriage, I cannot understand the logic. There are no limitations on equality; it is not rationed. We can all have it. There is enough to go round. It is not a situation where equality for some means nothing whatever left for others. On the contrary, those who make the case for equality in unions, even with the very small differences that we have debated in the past few days, ought to be generous to others. This is simply a study, and to deny to others what they seek for themselves sets an unfortunate precedent.
Love and commitment come in many forms, not necessarily with sex, as has been pointed out. Ordinary people will recognise the love and care that some family members—if only there were more of them—give to each other and will find it incomprehensible to treat them as less deserving or inferior when the opportunity, which may come once in a generation, presents itself to study their situation in this Bill.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I have my name on this amendment and am delighted to support it by speaking briefly. The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, has spoken, as she did last time, very eloquently. All I wish to add and to say to your Lordships is that a review is to happen. If that commitment had not been made, it could have been argued that this amendment was an intrusion and that it was not appropriate or fitting to debate it during the course of this Bill. However, the Government gave this undertaking in another place and, if the Government are to have this review of civil partnerships and attendant matters, then it is surely right, as the noble Baroness has argued so forcefully, that these other relationships should be taken into account. In the name of equity and in the name of decency it is right that your Lordships’ House should say, “Please include these relationships in the review”. That is all that we are asking. We have no guarantee what those who conduct the review will finally determine, but to exclude this from their terms of reference would be entirely wrong and I beg your Lordships to support the very sensible and extremely modest suggestion that the noble Baroness has made.
Lord Lloyd of Berwick
My Lords, my name is also attached to this amendment. In my speech in Committee, I gave two examples within my own experience of couples whose cases ought to be considered in the forthcoming review. One was the former Bishop of Lewes, who shared a house with his sister for many years until his death; and the other was a man, living in our village, who was paralysed many years ago in a riding accident and has been looked after ever since by a young friend of his. My noble friend Lady Deech, in moving the amendment, made it clear that she was not asking for a change in the law now and not even asking for a new review. There is already going to be a review, as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, has pointed out.
Under the Bill as drafted, Clause 14 states that the review can consider,
“other matters relating to civil partnership”.
It seems to me, therefore, that, on the ordinary meaning of those words, it is for those who oppose this amendment to say why those other matters should not include the two cases that I have mentioned, the case of the sibling and the case of the long-term carer, both of whom are covered by this amendment. The point that there is to be a review anyway was made by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds in Committee, and it was echoed by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. Since other matters will be considered in that review relating to civil partnership, this seems to be the ideal occasion to consider the points which everybody agrees are worthy of consideration.
What are the objections to the amendment? I start with the objection raised by the noble Lord, Lord Marks, who I am sorry to see is not in his place. He said that accepting this amendment would,
“undermine the whole notion of civil partnerships, which are about loving relationships between people living together as couples”.—[Official Report, 24/6/13; col. 535.]
So far, no one could possibly disagree with that. However, he went on to say that such relationships must, to be within the meaning of civil partnership, be sexual relationships. Where does he get that from? As far as I know, nothing in the 2004 Act confines civil relationships to sexual relationships. Why should civil partnerships not include the sort of platonic relationship that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, referred to in the debate on Monday?
The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, argued that non-sexual partnerships might not come within the Long Title of the Bill; but why not? It refers only to “civil partnerships”, not partnerships of a particular kind.
The noble Lord, Lord Alli, argued that to include carers would inhibit the further development of civil partnerships to a point where they might be blessed by the church. This, he said, would not be possible if civil partnerships included carers. Surely it would not be beyond the wit of the church to devise a method by which it would bless some civil partnerships but not others, so why should the whole notion of civil partnerships be devalued just because this amendment is accepted?
As the Minister said, the argument advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Alli, was just the sort of argument that should be considered when the review takes place, and I agree. I can understand why the noble Lord, Lord Alli, desires that civil partnership should continue to develop in the way in which he wants, but why should he stand in the way of civil partnership being developed in the way in which we want, which would include siblings and carers?
Finally, in objecting to the amendments, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, agreed with the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Marks, and I say no more about that. He said that it would undermine the current understanding of a civil partnership—but why? I hope he will explain that further. Secondly, he said it would be difficult to cover the case of the siblings because of the rule about consanguinity. It would lead to the legitimisation of relationships that are currently prohibited. I would give the same answer to the noble and learned Lord as he gave to the noble Lord, Lord Alli: that is just the sort of matter that should be considered when this review takes place.
As we know, the review is going to take place. I hope that the Minister will accept this amendment and allow these matters to be considered in that review.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. I will make two points, picking up on what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, has said.
First, if both spouses are in agreement, consummation is not a necessary part of marriage. You can perfectly well have a platonic marriage throughout the entire period of that marriage. Consequently, that point goes. Secondly, the Government have opened the door. Okay, it was a deal done in the House of Commons, but the door is actually open under Clause 14, which states that:
“The Secretary of State must arrange … for the operation and future of the Civil Partnership Act 2004 in England and Wales to be reviewed, and … for a report on the outcome of the review”,
but that,
“Subsection (1) does not prevent the review from also dealing with other matters relating to civil partnership”.
That absolutely opens the door for the amendment that the noble Baroness has put forward. I find it very difficult to understand why it cannot at least be considered.
Baroness Hooper
My Lords, as an example of the category of person that the amendment is intended to cover, I support it.
Having lived for some 30 years in a shared household with my sister—a jointly owned home, with shared management and payment of household overheads, and the commitment of a happy family relationship, sharing everything but sex—it is therefore disappointing to find that the ties of blood and family love are less important than other bonds, and that the concept of equality does not cover this.
Sadly, my sister died three years ago so I gain nothing personally from this, but others can. I therefore fully support all that the noble Baroness has said in moving this amendment so clearly and helpfully, and I trust that your Lordships will give it very sympathetic consideration.
Lord Alli
My Lords, I listened carefully in Committee to the arguments why sisters, brothers, fathers, sons, mothers and daughters should be allowed to have civil partnerships, and I will try to address some of the issues raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick.
First, on the development of civil partnerships in terms of religious organisations, I set out in Committee why I believe that the gap between where we are today and same-sex marriage is too big for many churches to make in one step. I believe that I will see a day in the not too distant future when civil partnerships will be celebrated in churches. If we were to broaden civil partnerships beyond the scope that they have today, we will endanger that.
Lord Lloyd of Berwick
Before the noble Lord moves on to that point, does he advance the same argument that Lord Marks advanced, that there must be a sexual element in every civil marriage? That, I feel, is the difficulty with the argument the other way.
Lord Alli
I have the same answer for same-sex marriage and opposite-sex marriage. We do not ask that question; we just do not. We say that if you say you are married, you define the nature of your own marriage. The state intervenes only in the breakdown of that marriage, when you cite the grounds for your divorce and can choose adultery or unreasonable behaviour. It is the same for civil partnerships. However I understand that, like marriage, the majority of civil partnerships start with a sexual component. That must be broadly understood.
I have two principal objections to the proposition of the noble Baroness. The first is about the nature of the relationship in a civil partnership. The noble Baroness seeks to use the civil partnership to review the Government’s tax and inheritance law. That does not deal with the nature of civil partnerships as I understand it. They were devised and brought into being to recognise a loving and—I accept this point—in most cases, a sexual relationship, between two individuals of the same sex. It was devised to give those sexual relationships a status in law, but not exclusively sexual. In many cases, it gave them the same benefits as married couples. It specifically excluded relationships that were exempted from marriage, such as mothers, daughters, fathers and sons, brothers and sisters.
Because of my personal view of civil partnerships—which is probably the view of the majority of people in this country—the very notion of giving access to civil partnerships between family members is the same as giving access to marriage to a brother and a sister, a father and a son, and a mother and a daughter.
Lord Cormack
The fact is that there is to be a review. That is not in doubt. What possible exception can the noble Lord take to those who are conducting it looking at the relationships mentioned by the noble Baroness in her speech? As I said in my brief remarks, the review may come to the conclusion that they should not be included, but why does he want to stop these relationships being considered by the review?
Lord Alli
I thought I was giving three reasons. My first was about trying to get the churches to take a step and view civil partnerships as part of that transition, where they can recognise the stunning relationships between a man and a man and a woman and a woman without having to cross the line into marriage. The second, which I believe the noble Lord seeks, already exists for unpaid carers. They can enter a civil partnership in which they are the same sex. They can enter civil marriage and get those benefits. The third is that—
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
Is my noble friend saying that two sisters could do that? Could he make himself clearer? I did not understand that.
Lord Alli
The third component is the one I was coming to, about the nature of the relationships in civil partnerships. I do not view civil partnerships as a financial transaction between two people. As I said, they are based, initially but not exclusively, on a sexual relationship between two same-sex people. That sexual relationship, which often mirrors marriage, forms the basis of it. I know—actually I do not know—that your Lordships do not like talking about sex but sex is part of the foundation of marriage as it is the foundation of civil partnerships. For that reason, for me, civil partnerships are akin to marriage. The thought that a father could marry a son, a mother marry a daughter or two sisters or two brothers marry—substitute the phrase “civil partner”—is what makes it feel wrong. Civil partnerships make it feel like a relationship that should not be allowed. I do not question the sincerity of the noble Baroness, Lady Deech. I believe she sees this as a piece of paper that brings a financial benefit.
This amendment is one part of a process. It should be up to the Government of the day to decide on their inheritance tax policy. The Chancellor and the Treasury set out and have a well documented process for consultation. I said in Committee—and in 2004 to the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain—that I, like many, think the current inheritance tax is unfair, particularly when it comes to family homes. I would be in favour of inheritance tax being paid on the death of the second or third survivor so the Treasury would suffer only a deferral of inheritance tax. But that is not a discussion for this Bill. It is a conversation to be had with government. I assure the noble Baroness that I will write to the leader of my party and advocate a change in policy to reflect that. I hope the noble Baroness understands why I do not support the amendment. We debated it in 2004 and the arguments have not much changed. However, the experience of civil partnerships might have helped the noble Baroness understand why this amendment could be seen as hurtful to those people who value their civil partnerships in a different way.
Finally, I risk the groans of the House by saying that in the intervening years since 2004 I have not noticed a single amendment tabled to another Bill to push this very point. Plenty of other Bills going through the House could have addressed it, including the Care Bill going through the House as I speak. I hope the noble Baroness and those who support this amendment will forgive me if I see it and the intervening nine years and ask: why now and not at any time over the past nine years? Whatever the reason, this is neither the time nor the place for civil partnerships to be used as a means of dealing with inheritance tax. I hope that the noble Baroness can recognise that and will withdraw her amendment.
Lord Lloyd of Berwick
I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord. He said that the noble Baroness moving the amendment is to some extent motivated by the need to provide the financial benefits. That is not my reason at all. Of course, there will be financial benefits, but my reason lies far deeper than that. Civil partnerships should be available to the people covered by this amendment.
Lord Alli
I understand that. However, the noble and learned Lord is trying to break the notion of civil partnership as we understand it. I say to him that the issue of the churches being able to bless civil partnerships should be taken on board when considering the labour laws.
The Lord Bishop of Chester
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Alli, raises the standard of debate on this issue. We on these Benches have enjoyed his contributions and deeply appreciate his commitment and share many of the things that he wants to achieve. However, just as he sometimes disagrees with me, I am going to have to slightly disagree with him over this. I do not know what the Church of England will do about services of dedication or blessing in relation to same-sex marriages. It is not entirely clear to me that extending civil partnerships to other dependent relationships might not actually increase the likelihood that the church would be able to move in this area. It is arguable both ways. Indeed, if you have two people whose lives are intertwined in a sort of covenantal way, as the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, indicates, they may well want some sort of blessing or dedication upon that interdependence, without the sexual relationship.
The issue for me is partly that when civil partnerships were introduced, they mirrored marriage too much. Many people on these Benches were in favour of legal arrangements to support and protect in every way people whose lives were interdependent. We had a problem precisely because it was all narrowed down too much, to same-sex couples. There has, however, always been support from these Benches for a proper legal arrangement to support people whose lives, for one reason and another, are interdependent.
Moving on, we have not heard the word “justice” mentioned much, although the noble Lord referred to the situation as being “unfair”. There is a deep issue of justice here, across our society, which, given what the equal marriage Bill is trying to achieve we ought at least to acknowledge.
Another issue has not been mentioned at all so far. In our society we now have an increasingly diverse range of family structures and patterns. Allowing some form of legal support between people who find themselves not in marriage, and not wanting to be civil partners in that sense, would have a deep civilising effect upon society. We have a lot of single parents now. Maybe a single mother is bringing up one child, and that child may not marry. They may find themselves sharing a home as they have done since that child was a baby. We have increasingly diverse patterns of family life. Something ought to be there to provide support and, indeed, blessing in every sense for those who find themselves in that situation.
I hope that the review of civil partnerships will be able to look at the issues which are specified in the amendment. Certainly, I, in those terms, would be delighted to support the amendment.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, referred to me by name. The issues that various noble Lords have raised, particularly those just raised by the right reverend Prelate, are incredibly important: the diversity of family patterns and the circumstances in which people find themselves. Personally, I would like to debate and look in particular at the role of carers—the relationships they form with other members of the family or, in the example given by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, someone for whom they assume a responsibility because of the way they feel about that person. I would be delighted to debate that issue, not even in a review, but now. I have waited for a long time, because during the civil partnerships debate in your Lordships’ Chamber the issue was raised quite frequently. However, I do not believe that this is the vehicle for doing that.
The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, referred to “cohabiting”. If you ask the average person in the street the meaning of that word, you will get a variety of responses. If you ask a councillor, they would think of somebody who is claiming that their benefit in the past has been withdrawn because of the nature of their relationship with somebody in the house. These are complex issues. They need seriously to be developed, in the right way and at the right time. I fear that this is exactly the wrong time. If you ask anyone outside your Lordships’ House, including a boy of 12 to whom I spoke, this is about marriage and for people who wish to get married because they love each other in a particular way. I hope that all noble Lords will resist the temptation to tackle the subject of this amendment at the wrong time and in the wrong place.
Lord Cormack
We are not seeking to determine it this afternoon. We are merely asking that those experts, presumably dispassionate, and in whom we can all have confidence, should look at this and make the review a little more comprehensive than is at present envisaged. That is all we are asking.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, I remind noble Lords that we are on Report. If noble Lords have already spoken, unless with the permission of the House they are asking a question of a noble Lord, they should not speak again.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, the noble Lord, in speaking in support of this amendment, has got exactly the right wagon but is seeking to attach it to the wrong train, which is going to the wrong place. I absolutely agree that this issue must be dealt with. However, I do not believe that noble Lords who have spoken are actually saying that they think the Bill is about anything other than same-sex marriage. Therefore, I hope that noble Lords will find another vehicle to attach their wagon to, in which case I, too, as my noble friend Lord Alli said, will be their supporter.
Lord Dear
My Lords, as somebody who once drove teams of horses with wagons behind them at a competitive level, may I be allowed to make a very small interjection? Although my name is not on the Marshalled List, as there was no room for it, I support my noble friend Lady Deech. I cannot add anything to the power of her argument or to the impeccable logic that she showed when she advanced the amendment.
The words “equity” and “decency” have already been used in support of this amendment. I would add “generosity”, “compassion” and certainly “appropriateness”. As she has already said, this amendment seeks to correct a prior-acknowledged discrimination. It asks the Government only to consider this within the terms of a review—not to change the Bill but simply to cause the review panel, the review body, to look at this issue. I was not in your Lordships’ House when the matter was debated eight or nine years ago. However, I have been told by many noble Lords whom I respect that there have been many attempts to try to couple this issue on to the appropriate wagon or stagecoach, and it has not been found. Here is an opportunity for us to do that. It will not get in the way of the current Bill. I certainly do not intend to do that, and I am quite sure that my noble friend does not, either. The time is right for a review, and if my noble friend presses her amendment, I will vote in favour of it.
Baroness Berridge
My Lords, when discussing previous amendments in Committee and on Report, much was said about teachers being required to teach the law of the land. I do not envy their task, as the law regarding different personal relationships has become rather complex. That was best exhibited by the exchange just now between the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, and the noble Lord, Lord Alli, about whether civil partnerships are a sexual union. I have friends in civil partnerships who, when they went to the register office, were separated and asked questions to ensure that their relationship was sexual. Although these matters need clarifying, I shall state my understanding of the situation.
Opposite-sex marriage is understood to be a sexual relationship because it can be ended by annulment and by divorce on the grounds of adultery with a member of the opposite sex. Civil partnerships are same-sex and, for the reason I outlined, treated as sexual, but there is no annulment. Platonic friends can marry if they are of opposite sexes or of the same sex, but the lack of annulment for same-sex marriage may lead the institution to develop very differently. I agree with the right reverend Prelate, who stated what the position is in modern Britain. The demographics of our country are changing rapidly. In the 2011 census, 29% of UK households were single-person—not single-parent—households. The fact that two people can live more cheaply than one is becoming increasingly important with rising living costs, poor returns on private pensions, and high housing costs.
We could end up seeing someone who wants to say to their best friend, with whom they share a house, “You can depend on me. I am your first port of call”. The commitment would be not merely financial, or about inheritance tax, or being one household for the purpose of benefits. With an ageing population, the Government should be pleased if this kind of development occurred under the same-sex marriage Bill.
Of course, that analysis means that carers, as outlined in the amendment, can already marry and gain the financial benefits outlined. If we were to see such a cultural development, the injustice to family members would be even more apparent. One might even see deeply religious people of the same sex who currently oppose the Bill getting married, if same-sex marriage develops in our culture in the way I outlined. That kind of development might even make it easier for marriage to be used mischievously for immigration purposes. We just do not know.
The amendment would give clarity and direction to this review. The review would give the Government time, which they have not had with such a speedy legislative process, to look at the whole legal relationship landscape.
I noted the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Alli, that it feels wrong to him. It was a very subjective, post-modern comment. It feels wrong to me to close down the area of discussion that a review would enable. If it was so wrong to put this wagon or coach on these horses, the amendment would not have been allowed on to the Marshalled List.
I support the amendment, because it would be unjust if everyone—and I mean everyone—except family members would be able under our law to promise a lifelong, non-sexual commitment or dependency.
Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws
My Lords, I oppose the amendments in this group. It is disingenuous of those who tabled and support them to suggest that those who do not see the purpose of them are being hard-hearted. I was shocked to hear lawyers who have spent their lives in the law not recognising the implications of extending a law that is essentially about marriage, or a commitment to a sexual relationship—that is what it is about—and imagining that a civil partnership between a father and daughter, or a brother and a sister, should be blessed, as was even suggested, and that it may come to that because of the great multiplicity of relationships that there are. I cannot believe that I heard senior lawyers endorse this. I can only believe that they did so because they want to dilute the purposes of civil partnerships.
Baroness Deech
My Lords, on a point of order, I do not think that anyone has suggested that fathers and daughters, or brothers and sisters, should get married. This is about asking the Government to include the position of carers in an inquiry. That is all.
Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws
The point of my opposing the suggestion that that should even be considered in the review is that we know that it will continue the debate that has taken place in this House over the past weeks, and because it is intended to undermine the Bill, the purpose of which is to end discrimination against gay people. The Bill is about civil rights. The right reverend Prelate on the Bishops’ Benches suggested that this would all be about recognising important relationships that are somehow on a par with a couple who choose to be with each other because of their sexual attraction to each other, their love for each other and their desire to stay together. I cannot imagine that the church would think that that was a good thing.
I cannot imagine it because we know that this is about choosing a partner whom you intend to be with. It is about the yearning among human beings to choose someone as your love, to be with your beloved and to share your life with them. That is very different from the relationships between brothers and sisters, and fathers and daughters. We should think of the implications of a civil partnership being extended to a father and daughter. Are we going to put an age limit on it? Is the father going to be able to enter into such a civil partnership with his 22 year-old daughter, or his 18 year-old daughter? We have to be conscious that this is yet another way of trying to scupper the Bill. The intention is to continue the debate and the argument long after the Bill has passed. Therefore, I urge everybody who cares about making sure that there is an end to discrimination towards gay people in this nation to vote with those who are against the amendment.
The Lord Bishop of Chester
My Lords, I did not want to speak again, but given the way in which—
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
As my noble friend pointed out earlier in the day, we are on Report, so the only basis on which we are allowed to speak twice is if we are asking a specific question of the person who is speaking. The right reverend Prelate has already spoken.
The Lord Bishop of Chester
The guideline is that a Member is allowed to explain himself on an important point. That is what the guidelines say, and that is all I wish to do. I want to make it clear that I do not wish to extend civil partnerships as they are now to the sorts of relationships that are in the amendment. Clearly, if family relationships and carer relationships came into civil partnership, it could change the nature of civil partnership. I understand that that would be within the terms of the review.
Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws
I will respond very briefly to the right reverend Prelate. Over the weeks I have listened to people of strong religious faith saying that extending marriage would undermine a social institution. What could undermine the social institution of committed sexual relationships more than the idea of fathers and daughters entering into a contractual partnership? If we care about social institutions, we should recognise that that would be a good way of undermining them.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
My noble friend is coming to the view that a review will come to a certain conclusion. We do not know what conclusion that review will come to. The question is surely that we know that under Clause 13—and this was a fairly late addition by the Government—there will be a review of civil partnership. We also know, under Clause 2, that it does not prevent the review also dealing with other matters relating to civil partnership. Are those who are against the amendment suggesting that the review should be stopped from dealing with those matters?
Part of our problem as politicians—or Members of this House, who may not consider themselves politicians —is that we face this disconnect between what we are doing here and public opinion. In my own judgment, having served 30 years in the other place, public opinion would consider this an important matter. When faced with the sort of examples given by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, they would say that there is a certain injustice in this matter. We remove ourselves from this view of justice coming from public opinion if we say that it cannot be included in the review, which, if it was able to look at this, might say that it was not properly within its terms. I do not know what the Government consider to be the specific terms of the review, or whether they will define what the review can or cannot do. On the face of it, the review will be able to deal with such matters, and may reject them. But public opinion and most of us would say that these are important matters, which deserve to be dealt with and may be dealt with by the review, which may say that it is not properly within its purview or that it is not something that should be dealt with at all.
In my view, it is proper for the review to deal with that matter, under the terms of the clause, and I look to the Minister to say in terms whether the Government recognise that this is a problem. Do the Government recognise that the examples given by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, and others refer to something that is considered unjust by a great number of people in this country? If so, even if the Government try to remove this from the review, will they deal with it in some other appropriate way?
Baroness Barker
I have listened to and taken parts in these debates ever since the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain, first raised them during her then opposition to civil partnership. There remains one point that is fundamental to this discussion and which has never been answered properly by those people who have advanced them, such as the noble Baroness, Lady Deech.
The rights and responsibilities of adults who voluntarily enter into relationships with other people are wholly different from the rights and responsibilities of family members—people born into the same family. If we were to treat them in the same way, as is achieved in the noble Baroness’s amendment, it is wholly possible that a member of a family could find themselves under an obligation to a family member to enter into a relationship, in particular to preserve the right of the family to property. That sets up some potentially damaging and ugly relationships within families, which is a consequence of what she proposes which she would really not like to see come to pass.
To answer the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, I do not think that that potential should enter into law and I do not think that it should form even part of any review. Therefore, I wish today to make that statement as strongly as I possibly can; I shall vote against this amendment and do so in the knowledge that there are people who will support me in supporting carers in a whole variety of different ways, which are wholly appropriate and far better than this.
Lord Pannick
My Lords, I find this a much more difficult issue than all noble Lords who have spoken so far. There are very strong arguments on both sides of the case and I very much hope that noble Lords on each side would recognise that.
My reason for speaking is that I spoke in Committee in favour of this amendment, and I am in a very unusual position in that the debates that we had in Committee on this issue have actually caused me to change my mind. The reason I have changed my mind is because I think that there is a very real injustice done to the people for whom the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, has spoken, but I am not persuaded that this is an appropriate vehicle by which this injustice should be addressed. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, says, sotto voce, “Why not”—and I will tell him. The purpose of the review is very simple; it is to assess whether the existing civil partnership regime, which is part of the law of the land, continues to serve a useful purpose now that we will have same-sex marriage. That is a very narrow purpose, and I do not think that it is appropriate that a review should consider whether a civil partnership should be used as a means to address a very real injustice which, if it is to be addressed, should be addressed through the taxation system and other means. That is why I have changed my mind and why I much regret that I cannot support the noble Baroness, Lady Deech.
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, this amendment would seek to extend the civil partnership review to include unpaid carers and family members who live together. I am just going to read the amendment, because of the discussion that took place between my noble friend Lady Kennedy and the right reverend Prelate. It refers to,
“unpaid carers and those they care for, and … family members who share a house … provided that they have cohabitated for 5 years or more and are over the age of eighteen”.
If that does not mean fathers, daughters, sisters and brothers, I am not quite sure what it means. So I think that my noble friend had a point in her indignation about that matter.
The problem before the House has been very adequately explained by various noble Lords. This is an issue about legitimate support for carers and the protection of people, sisters and brothers, growing old together and sharing a home, who require a new regime that protects their interests in their home and all the other things. That is to do with carers, tax and inheritance, and it is to do with compassion and the other issues that noble Lords have mentioned. But it is not appropriate to use those words—in terms of pulling up ladders, and so on—in this Bill.
This review is about civil partnerships, as explained by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. I am not going to read out my note, because he said it much more eloquently than I could.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
It is proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, that the review should deal with,
“the case for amending the criteria in the Civil Partnership Act 2004”.
Is my noble friend suggesting that the criteria themselves should not be amended in any way? What would she suggest should be the criteria employed by the review? Will we seek to limit what it can review?
Baroness Thornton
The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, very adequately, concisely and accurately explained exactly what the review is about.
The point is that the claims that the noble Baroness has explained to us are legitimate. As my noble friend Lord Alli said, the last time I heard the noble Baroness speak with such passion about these issues, apart from in Committee on this Bill, was during the passage of the Civil Partnership Bill.
In the mean time I can recall at least two carers Acts put forward by my own Government. There was the free personal care Bill, and there have been numerous discussions about finances and inheritance tax. Although we may not necessarily discuss those matters in this House to conclusion, certainly there are plenty of Members of Parliament in the other place who can and could put down amendments. I would be more sympathetic, perhaps, if I thought those things had happened, but they have not. My noble friend Lady Kennedy is right when she says that you have to question the purpose of this amendment when all those opportunities have been missed. We ask the noble Baroness not to press this amendment but if she does I will be voting against it.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, for moving the amendment and the other noble Lords who have put their names to it. It would amend Clause 14, under which the Secretary of State will arrange for the operation and the future of the Civil Partnership Act 2004 in England and Wales to be reviewed. The amendment requires the terms of the review to be extended to consider first, the case for enabling carers and family members who live together to register civil partnerships and secondly the case for creating a new legal institution to give carers and family members the same benefits as couples in a civil partnership.
I recognise, as we did in Committee, that many views have been expressed very passionately. I listened in particular to my noble friend Lady Hooper, who made an important contribution to this debate arising from her own circumstances. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, that, in many respects, the issues that have been raised about inheritance or the rights to have a say, for example, about funeral arrangements or related matters are issues in their own right. I will say more later about whether there has been a clamour for them, but my principal position is that this is not appropriate for a review of civil partnerships.
First, there is the issue of the nature and purpose of civil partnerships. They were designed to provide rights and responsibilities akin, to use the word of the noble Lord, Lord Alli, to those of marriage for same-sex couples. I note that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester thought that they possibly mirrored marriage too much. I think he said that was the view when they were brought in. These rights and responsibilities were provided because under the Civil Partnership Act people were unable to marry because they were the same sex. As civil partnerships are akin to marriage they have a formal means of entry and exit. They have imported the prohibited degrees of affinity parallel to those in marriage law. They have similar rules governing deathbed civil partnerships and financial and property arrangements.
Baroness Deech
My Lords, the comments made by some noble Lords have revealed misunderstandings on their part. I did not have the privilege of being a Member of this House in 2004, but at that time the House passed an amendment that would have included siblings and carers within civil partnership. Having checked my iPad, I see that I raised the matter in 2008, 2009 and 2012, and in some of those years more than once. However, having studied the Care Bill, I did not see a hook on which to hang it. The amendment that your Lordships passed in 2004 was rejected in the other place and complications arose at that time. That is why an inquiry would be so apt. Civil partnerships were invented in 2004 and another form of union could be invented now.
It is not right to jump to the conclusion, as some noble Lords have, that this means that family members will marry each other or have a civil partnership. That is not the case at all. I seek an inquiry. There is, of course, no question of incest and, anyway, there is no prohibition now on siblings living together. I do not believe that the police go knocking on their door to see whether incest is taking place. Some carers do get married. We have all read of elderly gentlemen marrying much younger ladies who care for them, often to the dismay of family members who are worried about inheritance. Inventing a new covenant or contract would probably be much more acceptable. However, it would, of course, be a question of choice. We are not talking about marriage, civil partnership or incest but about an inquiry given that civil partnership is to be examined. The wording is broad enough to allow for this.
No matter what hopes may be expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Alli, on religious marriage in the future or on the future of civil partnerships, I cannot find it in my heart to stand in the way of a study of equality. Just because something else may happen in the future, how can we stand in the way of an inquiry into equality? As the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, knows, as he was counsel in the relevant case, the Strasbourg court said that the treatment of the sisters was discriminatory but could be accepted because in this country there was this rigid division between marriage and all other unions, which no longer exists. Therefore, the review is discriminatory. How can we say that this is not the right vehicle in which to examine the issue? That is not the way that this House normally treats questions of equality and justice.
It is not just an issue of finance or of money-grubbing; I listed many of the other advantages of marriage and civil partnership, only a few of which are financial. Moreover, same-sex marriage is likely to come about long before the proposed inquiry reaches any sort of conclusion. Therefore, the two will not impact on each other. We need a debate on this, as the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, said, and here is the very vehicle for it.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, assumed that there would be no choice in the matter and that people would be forced into these unions. That is not the case at all. I keep repeating this because it seems to be misunderstood: I seek an inquiry into an existing discriminatory situation. That is all the amendment calls for. The people I am discussing do not all have to be treated in the same way. One is not suggesting that an inquiry, even if it went the way that I would hope, would end up saying that sisters, fathers and children should be treated as if they were civil partners. That is something to be decided in the future. Although, as I say, this is not just about finance or property, let us not overlook the fact that many a marriage, certainly in the past, was most definitely about property, but I am not suggesting that that is the case today, or that this is about money. As learned Members of this House well know, various other statutes deal with tax and inheritance for people who live together.
I do not think that a matter of justice is ever inappropriate. We have talked about carers for years and years since I have been here. This is a chance to do something for them in an inquiry. I am getting letters from sisters. I do not know what to write back to them if this House rejects this opportunity, which may not come up again for years. How can I write to them and say, “The House was presented with your situation but decided that it was not appropriate even to look into it”? If this House sees discrimination, it should allow it to be looked at in an inquiry. That is all I am asking for. Therefore, I wish to test the opinion of the House.
Royal Mail
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger of Leckie)
With your Lordships’ permission, I propose to repeat a Statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. The Statement is as follows.
“Today, I have laid a report in Parliament announcing that the Government have decided to proceed with a flotation of Royal Mail shares on the London Stock Exchange via an initial public offering.
A sale will initiate the final stage of the Government’s postal sector reforms. The overarching objective of these is to secure the universal postal service—the six-days-a-week service, at uniform and affordable prices to all 29 million addresses in the UK, which is vital to the UK economy.
Over four years ago, the independent review of the postal sector led by Richard Hooper concluded that the universal service was under threat. The previous Government accepted the review’s package of three main recommendations but the Bill to implement them, which would have permitted a minority sale of Royal Mail shares, was withdrawn. In 2010, Richard Hooper’s updated report confirmed his initial findings and that a package of measures was needed to secure the universal service. Through the Postal Services Act 2011, we have implemented two elements of that package by establishing Ofcom as the postal regulator and taking on Royal Mail’s historic pension deficit.
As set out in today’s report, we will now implement the third and final element of the Hooper recommendations by selling shares through an IPO in this financial year. We will retain flexibility around the size of stake to be sold, as this will be influenced by market conditions, investor demand and our objective to ensure overall value for money for the taxpayer. It is our intention to dispose of a majority stake, taking into account shares sold and those allocated to employees. The IPO will include a retail offer to enable members of the public to buy shares on the same terms as the big institutional investors.
At the time of the IPO, the Government will allocate 10% of the shares to an employee share scheme. These shares will be free to eligible employees, recognising that many might otherwise find them unaffordable, and I want to strengthen employee engagement by ensuring that employees own a real stake in the business. Employees must retain their shares for at least three years, giving longevity to the scheme. Our scheme will be the biggest employee share scheme of any major privatisation for nearly 30 years. Eligible employees will also receive priority in allocation if they purchase shares in the retail offer. I would like to reassure employees that ownership change does not trigger any change in their terms and conditions. The CWU will continue to be their recognised representative, and employees’ pensions will continue to be governed by the trustees. As part of a three-year agreement, Royal Mail is also prepared to give assurances on the continuation of a predominantly full-time workforce, a commitment to provide and enhance existing services to customers using the current workforce with no change to the current structure of the company in relation to these services, and no additional outsourcing of services
Royal Mail is now profitable and its overall financial position has improved. This is partly due to the Government’s action so far. But considerable credit is due to the management and the workforce who have implemented a modernisation plan. The challenge now is to maintain this positive momentum. In recent history, Royal Mail’s core UK mail business has swung between profit and loss. In the 12 years since 2001, it suffered losses in five of those years and over 50,000 jobs have been lost. Resting on the current level of progress is not enough.
Under public ownership, there is simply not the freedom to raise capital in the markets. A share sale will not only give Royal Mail commercial disciplines, it will also give Royal Mail future access to private capital, enabling the company to continue modernising and to take advantage of market opportunities such as the growth in online shopping, building on its success in parcels and logistics. Recent estimates indicate that this market is worth £76 billion in the UK.
There are various myths that need to be rebutted. Contrary to what is being claimed, Royal Mail, after a sale, will still be the UK’s universal service provider. This includes services to urban and rural areas and free services for the blind. Only an affirmative resolution in Parliament can change these minimum requirements. Free services for the Armed Forces are entirely independent of ownership, and Royal Mail is fully reimbursed for these services by the Ministry of Defence.
Ofcom’s primary duty is to secure the provision of the universal service. It also has duties to promote competition where that benefits consumers. However—and let me make this absolutely clear—should the two duties be in conflict, it is the universal service that takes precedence. In March, Ofcom published a statement on its approach to end-to-end competition, making it clear that should a threat to the universal service arise from such competition it has the powers to take any necessary action. While Ofcom is clearly the most appropriate body to assess and react to such threats to the universal service, the Government, as a safeguard, have retained powers to direct Ofcom with respect to certain regulatory levers such as reviewing the financial burden of the universal service and taking mitigating action to ensure that the universal service is maintained.
I confirm also that Post Office Limited will remain publicly owned, although we will continue to explore mutualisation. This Government have made a commitment that there will be no further closure programme. Royal Mail and Post Office Limited signed a 10-year commercial agreement in 2012 to ensure that they continue to be strong business partners.
The Government's decision on a sale is the practical, logical and commercial decision, that is designed to put Royal Mail's future onto a long-term sustainable basis. It is consistent with European developments, where privatised operators in Austria, Germany and Belgium have profit margins far higher than Royal Mail, and have continued to provide high-quality services.
Now the time has come for the Government to step back from Royal Mail and allow its management to focus wholeheartedly on growing the business and planning for the future. It is now time for employees to hold a stake in the company and share in its success. This Government will give Royal Mail the real commercial freedom that it has needed for a long time, and I commend this Statement to the House”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. I should declare an interest as a former joint general secretary of the Communication Workers Union and, many moons ago, an apprentice in Royal Mail when it was called the GPO.
We opposed the Government’s privatisation of Royal Mail during the passage of the Postal Services Act 2011, and we oppose it today. Maintaining Royal Mail in public ownership gives the taxpayer an ongoing direct interest in the maintenance of universal postal services in this country; helps to safeguard Royal Mail’s vital link with the Post Office; and ensures that the taxpayer can share in the upside of modernisation and the increased profits that Royal Mail delivers. Despite that, the Government have pressed on regardless with this sale and they have failed adequately to justify why they must sell now.
On one side, there is an unusual coalition against this move: the Opposition; the Conservative-supporting Bow Group, which described this move as “poisonous”; the Royal Mail's employees, who are represented by the CWU; and the National Federation of SubPostmasters. The right honourable Michael Fallon, Member for Sevenoaks and Minister for Business and Enterprise, wrote to a constituent in 2009 saying that he, too, was opposed.
On the other side, there is the Government, which now includes the Minister of State. The Government are ignoring the huge changes that they acknowledge have taken place since the passage of the Act. Chief among them is the more than doubling of Royal Mail's profits to £403 million and the significant progress on the modernisation programme, which calls into question the assertions that there is no prospect of Royal Mail being self-financing in the future.
I noted carefully the Minister’s reference to the package that Hooper recommended; it is true that Ofcom and the pensions arrangements were part of that package. However, he did not recommend full-scale privatisation, but an injection of private capital.
We have a number of concerns. The Government are rushing to sell the business without making the case as to why the sale of shares in Royal Mail, through an initial public offering, must be carried out now; nor have they illustrated how a sale will deliver maximum value for the taxpayer. They have failed to show that the climate for an IPO now is a good one or how much capital would be injected into the Royal Mail business as a result. Instead, they are pressing ahead with a fire sale this financial year in a desperate attempt to cover the gaping hole in George Osborne’s failed economic plans.
There are further points that the Government have failed to address. First, there is the timing of the sale. No evidence has been provided to demonstrate that the Government will secure best value for money for the taxpayer from a sale at this point in the Parliament. Additional years of profitability may well increase the sale value in future years.
Secondly, there are unresolved competition issues. Legitimate questions regarding the fairness of competition posed to Royal Mail by other postal operators—given that other postal service operators are not subject by the regulator to the same high performance and service quality standards as the Royal Mail—have not been resolved. The different services required of Royal Mail by the regulator arguably put Royal Mail at a disadvantage compared to its competitors.
Thirdly, there are the funding needs of the business. To what extent will Royal Mail be able to raise capital from other sources to meet its funding needs if it enters into private ownership?
Fourthly, there is the impact on the Post Office network. In January 2012, a 10-year deal was entered into between Royal Mail and the Post Office under which Royal Mail would continue to use the Post Office to deliver a range of Royal Mail services. However, there are no guarantees that this arrangement will continue on expiry of the agreement.
Fifthly, there is the impact on consumers and businesses. Royal Mail assets could be sold off, generating large, short-term profits for the private company: for example, high-value urban centres could be sold off to be replaced by distant depots, making it worse for the consumer. What assurances can be given that regulation will be sufficient to protect consumers from being ripped off in the same way that they were after transport and energy privatisations?
Sixthly, there is the issue of postcode access for businesses. As part of the proposed sale, it has been reported that the Royal Mail maintenance of post-office codes is up for sale, with a wider negative impact on business. I would welcome the Minister’s response on that point.
Finally, in relation to employee ownership, we welcome the giving of 10% of the shares in the business to its employees. However, if that is such a good idea, and given that the Government are proposing fully to mutualise the Post Office, why is the share being given to Royal Mail employees not larger?
In conclusion, I have the following questions for the Minister. First, Royal Mail faces competition from other postal service operators which are not, as I have said, subject to the same high performance and service quality standards as Royal Mail, putting it at a competitive disadvantage. How will that not depress the sale price, and what will the Minister do about it?
Secondly, this cannot be allowed to put the Post Office at risk. What guarantees can the Minister give that a privately owned Royal Mail will renew the agreement under which the Post Office provides Royal Mail products, which is essential to the Post Office’s future?
The Minister said that the universal service obligation is fully protected; that it will take precedence; and that if things start to go wrong, Ofcom will renew the financial burden. What exactly does he mean by “renew the financial burden”?
We believe that this is an ill-thought-out process that will not benefit the taxpayer, the consumer or the employees, and believe that the Government should think again.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, takes such a negative view of the privatisation programme with Royal Mail. I agreed with hardly any of the points that he made and I will attempt to address them as best I can.
On the rationale for the sale, I reiterate that the Government’s overarching objective is to protect the universal postal service; that is one of the key aims of this privatisation. To do that Royal Mail needs future access to private capital and commercial disciplines to be able to continue its modernisation programme and seize the opportunities for growth. It is important, as I mentioned earlier, to focus on the market for online shopping. For example, it is vital that the Royal Mail is able to upgrade its sorting technology, improve the way in which the tracking of parcels gets through the system and update its methods of delivery—there are 40,000 Royal Mail vehicles, for instance. There are many good reasons, therefore, why it is necessary to raise this particular money.
In terms of doing that through a private sale, as opposed to finding funds from public money, if Royal Mail remained in public ownership, there would be competition with the education and health services in fighting for limited resources. There is a good reason for the move to private funds.
On the so-called “fire sale”, as my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills said today in the other place, it must be the longest fire sale in history. At this stage, I pay tribute to the previous Government and to the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, who is in his place, for what he did in the privatisation of Royal Mail. It was a process that he started and we are completing it.
It is not a fire sale; rather, it has been long in the planning. The announcement today follows more than two years of preparation since Parliament passed the Postal Services Act 2011. It is a commercial transaction, and the Government will follow normal commercial practices in setting the share price and delivering value for money. A further point to make is one that I mentioned earlier. Deutsche Post and Österreichische Post have enjoyed good profits as a result of their successful privatisation programmes, and we do not want to be behind the curve. That is another good reason for moving to privatisation.
On employee ownership, I am delighted to confirm once again that employees will be given 10% of the shares for free, while on top of that through the special allocation process they will have the opportunity to purchase further shares. We believe that that is a very good deal for the employees. The objective is to tie employees in and align them to the strategy of the company. Overall, as I have said, I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Young, in terms of all his queries. I believe that we are on the right track.
Lord Fowler
My Lords, my noble friend referred to this as being the biggest employee share scheme following privatisation for almost 30 years. The last one was that of the National Freight Corporation, which I handled myself. Perhaps I may remind my noble friend that the reaction on the Labour Benches and of the unions was exactly the same on the NFC as it is today to the Post Office, although I do not think that anyone would now remotely argue against the NFC.
Although I congratulate the Government on this decision, does my noble friend not feel that it is a great pity that it was not taken 25 or 30 years ago? Does he realise that if it had been, at this point, Royal Mail might have been leading in the international carriage of parcels rather than leaving it to the German post office to take that advantage? It is an enormous lesson for us, so perhaps I urge my noble friend that privatisation should come back on to the Government’s agenda. A number of other companies could be privatised—here I am thinking in particular of BBC Worldwide. That would be to the benefit of the public and of the people who are working for it.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I thank my noble friend for that comment. In harking back 25 years, he makes an extremely good point; hindsight is very nice. I cannot remember exactly where we were with Royal Mail 25 years ago, but I am delighted that we are where we are at the moment. I believe that the conditions are right to privatise. The chief executive of Royal Mail has done an excellent job in turning the business around, with profits of over £400 million. The climate and the time are right, and I believe that there is an appetite, but let us see what investors think about it.
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan
My Lords, some of us on this side of the House who supported a minority shareholding did so because we wanted an improvement in the quality of the management. Frankly, we had despaired of that ever happening. That is because it takes particular skill for a manager to run a monopoly in a capitalist system at a loss, but that is what the managers of the Post Office succeeded in doing for a number of years. Circumstances have changed because the nettle of parcels has been grasped by the Post Office in a quite spectacular way. However, at the same time we now have day-by-day diminution in the volume of postal mail that requires to be delivered. The fact is that the length of the walk, the final mile that postmen have to go, is exactly the same regardless of the number of letters they have to carry. That is the most vulnerable part of the operation. It is not the parcels that will be the problem; it will be the cost of delivering letters. Frankly, the assurance that the Minister has given us this evening does not in any way give us comfort. All we can see is a weakening of the universal postal service when it becomes too expensive to subsidise under the economics of this flawed scheme.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
The noble Lord may not be surprised to hear that I do not agree with his assessment. It is true, however, that since 2006, the fall in letter volumes has been as much as 25%. The market is changing and we need to keep ahead of it. I would remind the House again that Germany and Belgium are ahead of the game. The injection of private capital into Royal Mail will help with the change, but there is a double benefit in that, through legislation, the universal offering remains strong. It is set in stone, which is a very important point to make.
Lord Razzall
My Lords, as the noble Viscount will be aware, we on the Liberal Democrat Benches are very much in support of this. Indeed, the Liberal Democrat element in the coalition, starting with Ed Davey who was the responsible Minister in the early days of the coalition, are absolutely delighted to see this culmination now. As the noble Viscount rightly said, it is very nice to see the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, in his place because it was he who started this process many years ago despite considerable opposition from his own side, which appears to continue.
Perhaps I may put three questions to the Minister. The noble Lord, Lord Young, raised a perfectly valid point when he asked whether the Government are satisfied—have they had advice from whoever is running the IPO for them, who presumably will have been taking soundings from the institutional shareholders who they are expecting to invest—that those shareholders will be prepared to put up the necessary capital to invest in Royal Mail, which was the whole purpose of the privatisation exercise in the first place? Are the Government satisfied that this structure will provide the necessary capital to continue the modernisation process in Royal Mail that we all know lies behind the whole privatisation drive?
Secondly—this is an important point—the Government have chosen to take the IPO route, which I must say was slightly surprising to some of us. We had assumed that the more likely result would be either some form of trade sale or a private sale. Can the Minister confirm that if the IPO was to fail for whatever reason—particularly listening to the noises that are coming from the trade union movement at the moment—the Government will continue the process of selling off shares in Royal Mail? If that happens, it is probable that the buyers would be a private equity group, who are less likely to be sympathetic to the interests of the trade union movement than would be the case under an IPO.
Thirdly, perhaps I may reflect for a moment on the 10% of shares that are going to the employees. As the noble Viscount will know, the Liberal Democrat element of the coalition has pressed for this strongly right from the start. Can he confirm the numbers that have appeared in the newspapers recently of the value of this to the employees of Royal Mail? The numbers that I have seen show that the average Royal Mail employee is being paid approximately £19,500 per annum, and on the likely price of an IPO, every employee will receive shares worth about £1,900 to £2,000. If those numbers are correct, that is clearly a significant sum to be put into the hands of the well deserving employees of Royal Mail.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
In answer to my noble friend’s first question about the appetite of shareholders, the indications are that there is clear interest in purchasing shares in Royal Mail. I would not want to go further, because it is not my role to speak on behalf of investors, but my noble friend makes a very good point. The most important thing for Royal Mail is to have flexible access to capital to allow it to innovate and capture market opportunities, such as the strong growth in the parcel market driven by online shopping, as I mentioned earlier. That is what an IPO will deliver for Royal Mail. It should not have to come cap in hand to Government and compete with schools and hospitals when it needs to innovate or commit to future investment.
The second question concerns the IPO route as opposed to other methods. It is true to say that, having got to this point over a good number of years, the IPO route was clearly the preferred route. I am certain that other options were looked at. My noble friend’s question was, if the IPO route were to fail, would other methods be used? I do not wish to be drawn on that or to speculate, only to say that it is our firm belief that the IPO route is the right route and that is the route that we will be following.
The final question concerned employees. I am delighted to hear that my noble friend is very much in favour of giving 10% of shares free to employees. I will not be drawn on the actual valuation, because a prospectus will be produced in due course, which will set out the terms of the IPO. The valuation will, of course, depend on investor demand and market conditions at the time. What my noble friend has read in the papers, as he will probably know, is pure speculation.
Lord Martin of Springburn
My Lords, I think that the Minister will agree that many of those who retired from the Royal Mail worked very hard to get it into the very good shape that it is in just now. Has any consideration been given to allowing those who are in receipt of a Royal Mail pension—in other words, former sorting staff and postmen and postwomen—to buy shares? My thoughts go to the fact that in my previous constituency—although it is known as Glasgow North East, it was known as Springburn at one time—we have a lovely sorting office, which I pass every week when I come to the House of Lords. It is known as the St Rollox sorting facility. Several hundred people work there. They have changed their hours, adjusted to the new situation and worked very hard. I would be deeply saddened if any organisation took over and vacated the site at St Rollox and went somewhere else, which would mean that the loyal men and women—some of whom I am related to—who perhaps get up at four or five in the morning and walk to their work in the Springburn area, would lose their jobs. Some of the newer delivery companies, such as TNT and FedEx, tend to go into great industrial estates, but the only way to get to these facilities is by private transport and not public transport. Has any consideration been given to securing jobs in the communities in which they already exist?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I thank the noble Lord for those two points. His first question was whether it might be considered that shares be given to those who have worked for a long time for Royal Mail and that their hard work might be rewarded. It is fair to say that the employee share scheme is designed to secure the future success of Royal Mail and the universal service and we therefore consider it appropriate to include only the current workforce, who deliver the universal service and can influence and benefit from the future success of the company. Share awards will be made only to those employees who have been in employment for the relevant qualifying period, which happens to be a number of months. I listened carefully to the noble Lord’s second point; I know Springburn, so it is familiar to me. I am sorry to hear that there has clearly been some disruption to individual lives regarding the transfer of the sorting office. My only response to that is that it is very much up to the Royal Mail management to—
Lord Martin of Springburn
Maybe I have given the wrong impression. Everyone is fine in St Rollox. My worry is that, if some of these new companies come in, they might close the facility and move the machinery somewhere else.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
It is useful to have the clarification from the noble Lord. In that case, my point is still the same. It is very much up to the Royal Mail management to look very sensitively at those personnel issues. I have no doubt that they will do that if there is a particular move in that way. Change, as we know, is always difficult and it affects individuals. The noble Lord makes a very good point.
The Lord Bishop of Exeter
My Lords, I welcome the affirmation in the Statement—the Minister has repeated the affirmation twice—that the Royal Mail will still be the UK’s universal service provider and that this will include services to urban and rural areas alike. However, may we be assured that not only will there be universal coverage but there will continue to be uniform pricing? Too often the residents of rural areas, especially remote and sparsely populated areas, face higher costs for public services. Can the Minister affirm unequivocally that a privatised Royal Mail will be required to maintain a universal pricing structure and that residents, whether of Westminster or of west Devon, will continue to pay the same price for the service that is offered?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
In answer to the right reverend Prelate, through the Postal Services Act, Ofcom has the primary duty of securing the provision of a universal service. I can confirm that this will be secure in the hands of the privatised Royal Mail. What is protected is not only the six-days-a-week letter service to every address in the UK and free services to the blind, which I mentioned earlier, but also affordable prices, which are monitored by Ofcom. On the specific question, Royal Mail stamp prices for the universal postal service will continue to be regulated by Ofcom, which has a duty to ensure that they remain affordable. For example, Ofcom has put in place a safeguard cap on second-class letters and parcels to ensure that the service remains affordable for all users. I hope that that reassures the right reverend Prelate.
Lord Bates
I am grateful to my noble friend for the Statement, which I very much welcome. Has he had an opportunity to read Richard Hooper’s report, which was commissioned by the previous Government and paves the way for today’s announcement? It identified some major hurdles to Royal Mail achieving its competitive position: the elimination of restrictive labour practices; increased levels of automation; and a culture change towards customers. Will he advise us on what progress has been made towards that? Will he also reflect on the point made by IMRG that parcel deliveries are going to increase by 70% over the next four years due to the growth in online sales, providing a real opportunity for a revitalised Royal Mail in the private sector, if it can sort out those inherent problems?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My noble friend’s questions allow me to say that there is tremendous market opportunity for Royal Mail when it is privatised. On the automation programme and the changes that the chief executive has brought about with the rest of the board of Royal Mail, there is extremely good progress to report. I am glad that my noble friend has endorsed that. As to the market itself, we know that there is a tremendous opportunity in terms of future online shopping opportunities, but it will be up to the Royal Mail board following privatisation to use the flexibility of private capital to look at the market and to take even greater advantage of the opportunities for the company.
Lord Grade of Yarmouth
I thank the noble Viscount for the Statement and fully applaud this decision, which is belated in the extreme. It is clear that one of the great rationales for this privatisation is the increasing competition and the threats from technology that the Royal Mail faces. The idea that a state-owned operation of this kind cannot face those challenges in the nimble way that is required in business today seems to be unarguable and I absolutely applaud the decision. However, I have two quick questions. I am not asking the Minister to name it, but is there a price at which the Government would not sell? Secondly, are there any considerations about potential foreign takeovers in due course?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My noble friend would probably be surprised if I gave an accurate answer to the first question, so I will pass on that one. In terms of the price, as I mentioned, the prospectus will be produced at some point between now and April 2014, which is the period during which we anticipate the sale will take place. Market conditions and investor demand will also be part of that aspect.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I raised a number of questions that the Minister did not answer and, before he sits down, I request that he addresses those in writing. I do not have time to reiterate them all. I also could not help but observe that the right reverend Prelate did not get an absolutely explicit answer on the uniform tariff and the universal service obligation. Maybe I missed something.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I will be very happy to write to the noble Lord, Lord Young, on any questions that I have not managed to answer.
Government Archives and Official Histories
Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their latest assessment since February 2008 of the arrangements for preserving Government archives and preparing official histories.
Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank
My Lords, as noble Lords will have recognised, the title, or description, of this debate is a reprise. In a short debate on 5 February 2008, I expressed my concern about two separate but related issues. One was the way in which ministerial and other papers are kept when they leave departments but are not destroyed or sent to the National Archives at Kew. The other was the need to continue the long-standing series of official histories and how best to choose, organise and publish the books.
As I explained in my debate in 2008, my interest in the first issue arose from the fate of government papers when I was seeking documents from my time as Secretary of State for Transport. After six months of fruitless exchanges between me and the department, I finally abandoned hope of anything substantial. The departmental records officer where the papers were stored in Hastings apologised for—in his words—“an unsatisfactory situation”. He recognised quite openly how this had arisen. The essential discipline—these are my words—had been lacking to ensure that they were properly catalogued, remained in the correct files or changed their names appropriately and to ensure that they were returned when they had been borrowed.
In the end, I wrote to the then Cabinet Secretary on the general question of government records and their condition. I said that some departments took great care of their archives but others did not, especially when departments were chopped and changed. I understood that his predecessors had reminded Permanent Secretaries that they were obliged to keep accurate records and to keep them in good condition. I received a helpful reply. Eventually, he said that within a year or so he would again remind Permanent Secretaries of their duty in this respect.
Since the previous debate, most, if not all, Permanent Secretaries have retired or gone elsewhere. Some departments have adopted new names and policy areas have been changed. So where are the papers now and has today’s Cabinet Secretary reminded new Permanent Secretaries of their responsibilities in keeping records? Or is it now the head of the Civil Service, Sir Bob Kerslake, who keeps Permanent Secretaries up to the mark? Put simply, can the Minister reassure me that government papers as I have described them are now in good order?
I turn to official histories. On the previous occasion, five years ago, I mentioned Problems of Social Policy by RM Titmuss, published in 1950—a seminal study of poverty and deprivation in wartime—as the first official history I had read. Another I mentioned was SOE in France by MRD Foot, which I was required to read out of ministerial interest at that time. I then referred to Churchill’s Man of Mystery: Desmond Morton and the World of Intelligence, an unusual choice even among the eclectic selection of titles in the current series. It was this book about Desmond Morton that focused my mind on some wider policy questions about the official history programme: the timetable, the shape of the programme, the publisher, the contracts with authors and the marketing of the books. The Desmond Morton book seemed to be a one-off, as it had a well designed jacket and told a fascinating story. It should have sold well, been serialised in newspapers and been considered for a television programme. I asked how many copies had been sold—at £49, about twice the usual price—and whether the book had been reviewed in magazines and journals. In replying to the debate, the Minister was full of good will but no figures or substantial response.
However, after the debate, things began to move. Before the end of that year the Cabinet Office said that it was commissioning “a fundamental review” and that Sir Joe Pilling, a retired civil servant, would undertake it. He took evidence quickly and widely, and his report was completed by April 2009. A second, associated report was written by Bill Hamilton, a literary agent, about the publishing arrangements. These were internal classified reports but, two years later, when the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, intervened with the Cabinet Secretary, it was decided to make them publicly available on the Cabinet Office website. I welcomed this step although I was bothered that some key paragraphs in the Hamilton report had been removed as they were “commercially sensitive”.
The principal terms of reference for the Pilling report were to review the official history programme and consider whether it should continue. Sir Joe Pilling’s recommendation was strongly positive. He said that,
“the overwhelming weight of evidence supported the continuation of the programme”.
He then went on to make detailed suggestions to ensure that the programme was,
“better, stronger and more useful”.
I should say that in 1997, the Prime Minister nominated three Privy Counsellors—the noble Lord, Lord Healey, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavon, and me—to be asked whether they were content with the subject and the author for each proposed book in advance of the Prime Minister’s formal approval. This led to my interest in the whole official histories programme and how it was put together and published. In this respect, I have much exceeded my proper and limited role.
However, I have kept in touch with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, from time to time. At the beginning of my inquiries he shared my view that the programme appeared to fall “not short of chaos”. Later, he wrote directly to the Cabinet Secretary expressing his concern. Then, in a letter to me on 25 August 2010, copied to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, and the noble Lord, Lord Healey, Sir Gus O’Donnell—now the noble Lord, Lord O’Donnell—said that, since the current programme of official histories was coming to an end:
“Given the current challenging economic climate, I am sure that there is likely to be a hiatus in commissioning new titles”.
That is where things stand. There is now a hiatus and a gap in the official histories. The last volume of the existing programme was commissioned five years ago, so the break in the sequence is already lengthening.
I am grateful to members of the official histories team at the Cabinet Office for their helpful responses to my persistent inquiries over a long period. However, I do not know who decided that there should be a hiatus. Was there a ministerial decision, and, if so, by whom and when? If a new programme either marks time or goes ahead, what are the financial consequences? Is stopping official histories because of the “challenging economic climate” really justified? As I said earlier, given the deletions in the Hamilton report, there are no relevant figures and costs, but they must be peanuts against public expenditure.
I think the latest book published in the existing programme is the second volume of The Official History of Britain and the European Community by Sir Stephen Wall. It is outstanding and wholly relevant to the possibility of a new referendum in the next Parliament. I remain disturbed about the publishing and marketing arrangements for official histories, given that this book is priced at £70—a ridiculous figure.
History never stops, and the Secretary of State for Education is very anxious that Britain’s own story is recorded and studied. To stop official histories is short-sighted. Although the Minister cannot announce today a reversal of this unhappy situation, I hope that the Government will make an early decision to resume the publishing programme.
Lord Prescott
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, on raising the matter of government archives and records. I was a bit unsure whether my experience, which I wish to relate to the House, fitted into this, but in his first few words he made clear the kind of chaos that is associated with records and archives. That has been exactly my experience in the past two years, although it does not go back as far as that of the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers.
I need to set the background as to why I needed access to the records. The background came from the dirty tricks department in the Department for Communities and Local Government led by the Secretary of State, Mr Pickles, who decided to go back to my record of expenditures in the department in 2004-06. There was clearly a political reason. He spelt out all the expenditures that were done with government procurement cards in my name. That meant, of course, that the information was given to the press. There were PQs here and in the Commons. There were stories of me running around everywhere, eating in the best restaurants and so on. They were just not true but they were put out, and they were politically inspired. My concern was how to get access to the information and challenge it.
In 2011, I wrote to the then Cabinet Secretary, Sir Gus O’Donnell—now the noble Lord, Lord O’Donnell—saying that I was very concerned about the allegations because they were not true. He wrote two letters to me, which I have here, and I spoke to him about these. In his first letter, dated 18 November, he said that there had been some fraudulent expenditures, that the person had been caught and disciplined and that I should have been told before this information was released—that is supposed to be the normal courtesy, although it normally does not apply to me. Five days later, I received another letter from him contradicting his earlier letter. This one had his name stamped on it but was without a signature. I ended up with two letters from the Cabinet Secretary. The essential difference between the two letters was that both the information about finding the criminal, the person responsible, and the comment about my not being told had been deleted from the second letter. Clearly, I got a little concerned about who signed what where. I then asked Sir Gus O’Donnell, who said that he had signed only one letter and knew nothing about the second one. He was still in that early stage before his retirement. I clearly wanted to know, so I asked the department, but it would not give me the information.
I then applied to the Information Commissioner under the Freedom of Information Act. He looked at the matter and said that he backed the Secretary of State. I went to another appeal but again he backed the Secretary of State. What was he backing? He was backing the view, under Section 36 of the Freedom of Information Act, that if it is in the public interest not to tell you, he can deny you access to that information. The Cabinet Secretary and the Information Commissioner made it clear that they knew who the person was who gave the instruction. Since they will not give me the information, I suspect that we are back to the old SPADs—Mr Shapps was the Minister at the time, and Mr Pickles was Secretary of State. Somebody directed the Cabinet Office over the weekend to change the letter. They did not say to Sir Gus O’Donnell, “We’re changing your letter. Is that all right?”. It was a political intervention to take out two important bits of information and therefore certainly relevant to what I was concerned about.
The Information Commissioner confirmed that the information was available but said that it was not in the public interest to tell me because it was a high-profile public case. I am not sure that is a sufficient answer. Why is it a high-profile case? It is because they released the information to the press about my expenditures. That is what has made it high-profile. That then becomes the justification for the Information Commissioner not to tell me why it is not in the public interest. Telling you what is happening could have a “chilling effect” on civil servants. We are talking about political intervention here, not civil servants. One civil servant does not do this. This was a direct intervention on essential information by somebody in the Department for Communities and Local Government and with the Cabinet Office over the weekend.
My concern, therefore, is how do I get that information? I cannot get it through the Information Commission, who confirms the decision by the Secretary of State, Mr Pickles. What can you do about that? I know that it is difficult when you are up against the Information Commissioner who takes that view, but I am still concerned about this political intervention. There are many expenditures in that department and they are all listed. According to the department, I must have eaten myself around the ruddy world, and in all the best restaurants, of course. Therefore, I wonder whether I can get access to my diaries. One expenditure of more than £1,000 was spent in a hotel on Christmas Eve. Your Lordships will not be surprised to learn that I was not in London having a do; I was at home. I need the diary to be able to prove that these allegations against me are just wrong.
I then went to the Cabinet Office to ask for the information, but remember that the Information Commissioner says that I must appeal if I want to go to the final body for appeal, and I have to do it within 28 days. So I wrote to the Cabinet Office and I rang them there. I said that I wanted the information from my diaries. They told me that they were very difficult to find. In the end, I got a letter this morning telling me that they had found them—this is weeks later. The trouble is that the appeal has gone. Is that the normal service that one can expect? I know that if you are a privy counsellor you are supposed to get some privilege. I am not one now, but I was one then, so I should still have access to the information on the fast track—I expect the slow track from now on. However, the circumstances are such that I could not get the diaries. I needed the diaries to show where I was on what dates and perhaps throw doubt on all the expenditures involved. To that extent, I am frustrated. I did not think that I could bring the matter up until I heard the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, talk about delay in access to information, which Ministers have passed. If the Government can get it—and they have, in my case—and so can the Ministers, why not I, the man whom they are attacking? That is what I call political dirty tricks. I hope that they will read this speech. I just felt there was frustration and there was a chance in the debate of the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, to put my point of view before the eminent people who will follow and who have direct experience of what happens in the Cabinet Office.
Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield
My Lords, I am left breathless, but I will try. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank, for giving us the opportunity to debate this important theme. I declare an interest as president of the Friends of The National Archives and as a teacher of contemporary British history at Queen Mary, University of London.
I will concentrate on a special oeuvre within the genre of official histories: those dealing with the secret services. Two very fine ones have appeared since the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, last enabled your Lordships’ House to discuss official histories: first, The Defence of the Realm: the Authorized History of MI5, spanning the years 1909 to 2009, by Professor Christopher Andrew, which was published in 2009; secondly, the following year saw the publication of Professor Keith Jeffery’s MI6: The History of the Secret Intelligence Service 1909 to 1949.
Both books brim with their own special mixtures of analysis, swash and buckle, operations and organisation. Both studies kindle that fascination to which we Brits are so susceptible when reading about the King’s or the Queen’s most secret servants in either fictional or non-fictional form. It is here in that strange, twilit terrain between the facts of Professor Andrew and Professor Jeffery and the imaginations of the spy novelists that one finds the real utility of intelligence history. Spying and counterspying are activities that uniquely lend themselves to fantasy and conspiracy theory. The meticulous, careful reconstructions and assessments filtered through the minds and pens of Chris Andrew and Keith Jeffery are the best antidote we have to what one astute critic called the “snobbery with violence” practised by Commander Bond on both page and screen.
Part of the special utility of secret service official histories and historians is that they possess another virtue, a Heineken lager quality, for they can reach those parts of the secret state that others cannot reach because of the stratospheric classification levels of many of the documents on which they draw and the care needed to avoid blowing both human and technological techniques, the sources and methods of the craft that remain of enduring value.
The paper product of our secret agencies does not flow that easily into the public domain on the tide of the 30-year—soon to be 20-year—rule. But the appearance of the official histories of the Security Service and the Secret Intelligence Service has provided a scholarly bonus —a Keynesian multiplier effect—which I had not anticipated. Once the volumes had been published, a proportion of the retained files on which Professors Andrew and Jeffery had drawn could be prepared for declassification at the National Archives, and indeed were.
At Kew last May the Foreign Office, the Cabinet Office and the National Archives mounted what can only be called a cornucopian release, drawing on two of the most secret collections the British state has ever created. The FCO batch covered the Foreign Office’s dealings with the SIS—the province of what the FCO euphemistically calls the Permanent Under-Secretary’s Department—covering the years 1903 to 1951 and shedding much new light on how the secret state coped with successive threats from the Kaiser, Hitler and Stalin. The second tranche flowed from what I call the Cabinet Secretaries’ “too hot to handle” cupboard, formally known as the Cabinet Secretary’s Miscellaneous Papers. This batch covered the years 1936 to 1951 and contained material which, in my judgment, is of continuing value to today’s guardians of national security in the secret agencies and in Whitehall.
I particularly have in mind the report prepared for Mr Attlee and a small group of Ministers in 1951 on The Secret Intelligence and Security Services. Written by that great technician of state, Sir Norman Brook, the Cabinet Secretary to four Prime Ministers, it painted for Ministers a vivid and unsparing portrait of how the secret world had fared and was faring against the toughest target British intelligence had ever faced: Stalin’s Russia.
I hope that the current heads of service and the Cabinet Secretary will read the Brook report. Not only is it an exemplar of concision and penetration and the jargon-free language at which Whitehall excelled before departments sought the assistance of management consultants, it is a model for how such a review might be commissioned today; for example, if the Prime Minister wished to review the workings of the secret world as a whole with now more than three years’ experience available of his National Security Council as the taskmaster and pacemaker of the agencies.
I profoundly hope that the current austerity will not dam the flow of official histories for the foreseeable future, not least those dealing with the secret world. It would be hugely beneficial, for example, if Cheltenham could authorise an official historian to start work on a volume designed for the general reader, embracing as much as can safely be divulged about the Government Communications Headquarters and its predecessor institutions to complete the secret agency set, as it were, and make it three.
I like to think that in this House we have a keen sense of history across all our Benches; in fact, I know we do. I know, for example, that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, would have added his wisdom to our deliberations this evening had he not been involved with our other business today. I will finish by giving my thanks to all those across the departments and agencies who provide us with such a rich paper trail—although regrettably not to the noble Lord, Lord Prescott—and those who care for the documentary product permanently at the National Archives. We are truly in their debt.
Lord Butler of Brockwell
My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, for initiating this debate—at least I was until I heard the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Prescott. I am tempted to say that things must have gone downhill since my day but actually I think I can solve his problem for him. Unless things have very much changed, he does not have to go to the Information Commissioner to get the papers either about his diary or about his restaurant bills. Certainly it always was the case—I believe it still is—that any former Minister can consult the papers which he himself dealt with. My advice to the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, if he finds himself being traduced again, is to go directly to the department and ask to see them and not to bother with the Information Commissioner.
Lord Butler of Brockwell
I think the noble Lord should have gone to his own department.
I very much endorse what the noble Lords, Lord Hennessy and Lord Rodgers, said about the value of both the official histories and the National Archives, and the importance of good record-keeping in government, not just for the benefit of academic historians but because of their relevance to current decision-making. When the Government make decisions when they are not fully aware of the history of the subjects they are discussing, they are like a driver who goes out into the traffic without having taken the trouble to check in his rear mirror before taking action on the road. In that respect, both the files and the official histories are very valuable.
However, files and official histories are not enough. We need something else to exploit the lessons of history for policy decisions. If, when a crisis arises, there is no official history on the subject—certainly, if there is, it ought to be consulted; but it will be a monumental work that does not cover all areas of government policy—it is too late to go back to the archives. We need to ask what else is needed to exploit the lessons of history when they are necessary for informing policy decisions.
Of course, it would be impossibly expensive to employ enough historians in government to cover the vast span of each department’s responsibilities. But it is not too expensive for each department to have a historical adviser who would not necessarily be able to give advice on all major issues but who would have sufficient tendrils into the academic world to know where such advice could be obtained. It is not sufficient for this advice simply to be fed into the department. A historical adviser must be present at the table when major decisions are taken.
Of course, there were many in the Foreign Office and State Department who were fully aware of the complexities of both Iraq and Afghanistan when policy decisions were being taken on those countries. The question is whether they had the opportunity to make themselves fully heard by the decision-makers. In this respect, I admired the practice of Margaret Thatcher as Prime Minister, whose first step when taking a major decision was to hold a seminar of experts. The seminar she held when facing the unification of Germany has become well known. It did not necessarily overcome her prejudices but it was certainly a counterweight to them. It said that under the pressure of economies, all departments, with the notable exception of the Foreign Office, had disbanded their historical sections. If that is so, it is a grave disadvantage to the operation of government.
Will the Minister tell me, either in replying to the debate tonight or by writing to me, whether it is true that all departments except the Foreign Office no longer have historical sections? If that is untrue, which departments still have them? I also invite his comment on whether, even if departments cannot afford historical sections, they should at least have a historical adviser. Without such, government decisions will be taken blindly.
Lord Liddle
My Lords, I, too, welcome the debate initiated tonight by the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers. I want to make one simple point very strongly in favour of official history and about wanting to make official history more contemporary, not less. I believe that history is vital to people when facing difficult decisions. In the years that I spent as an adviser in government, one thing that struck me a great deal was the lack of institutional memory in government departments. Even in a long-serving Government such as the Labour Government from 1997 to 2010, Ministers changed jobs frequently and, except in one or two cases, it was very unusual to have Ministers who had a long period of office in one department.
Apart from the ministerial merry-go-round, there were frequent changes in the Civil Service. For instance, one of the most striking things in the book by my noble friend Lord Adonis on education is that, in the case of the academy programme, eight different people were in charge of it in the Department for Education in nine years when he was the relevant person at No. 10 and a junior Minister in the department. There is far too much changing around and as a result there is a lack of institutional memory. I remember when my noble friend Lord Mandelson came back from Brussels and went to BERR, I think it was called, and started to think about industrial policy, there was very little available that one could turn to that analysed the strengths and weaknesses, from the perspective of government records, of government policies in the past.
More history and more contemporary history would be good for us. The most recent official history that I have read is Sir Stephen Wall’s excellent book on Britain and the European Community from 1963 to 1975. It made me reassess what was probably a rather too jaundiced view of Harold Wilson. Stephen has given us the benefit of the minute books of the Cabinet Secretaries, so you know what each Minister said in Cabinet meetings, and you come to admire Wilson’s skill in handling questions such as the Common Market at Cabinet. The lessons for what we are currently going through—the renegotiation that the current Prime Minister proposes—come out of that book extremely strongly.
Taking the Europe example again, the reason why I would like some more contemporary examination of the records is that many of the issues that will be raised if there is a renegotiation in the next Parliament were raised during the European convention in the period from 2000 to 2003. Many of these issues about competences, repatriation of powers and the legitimacy and accountability of European institutions were thoroughly gone through then, yet I suspect that there has been no proper examination of the lessons of that experience by officials internally and certainly none by historians externally. So let us have more official history, and let us make it more contemporary.
Lord Bew
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank, for securing this debate and, indeed, for opening up this whole question with his debate five years ago. I must declare an interest, as secretary to the All-Party Group on Archives and History and, like my noble friend Lord Hennessy, as a working professor of history in Queen’s University Belfast. One of the effects of the important debate introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, five years ago was the production of the Pilling report. The noble Lord referred to it tonight. There is a striking sentence by Sir Joe Pilling at the heart of his report endorsing the project of official histories. He said that he had come to see the work of publishing official histories as,
“the gold standard of accountability to the country from those who have been privileged to hold senior office”.
It is for that reason that Sir Joe Pilling advocates essentially an improvement and an increase in the production of official histories.
I recall that five years ago I referred to the history of MI6—which my noble friend Lord Hennessy mentioned tonight—by my colleague Keith Jeffery. It was then basically something that existed on Keith’s desk, but now it shows how these things can sell. One of the many points that are so important about that book is that it has sold hundreds of thousands of copies across the world. It may be because the Chinese copy actually has a gun smoking on the cover, but none the less it is an indication that no definite economic death follows the production of official histories. It is important to understand that the work of producing official histories is of great significance.
However, there is a darker side to Sir Joe Pilling’s report. If you read between the lines, he was aware as a member of the Dacre committee with Sir David Cannadine that it was likely that we would move from a 30-year rule. Actually, the Dacre committee recommended moving to 15 years, but in practice it is now a 20-year rule. Sir Joe is also clearly aware that this will become an argument for the state to say that it does not need these official histories any longer. He clearly tacitly acknowledges that that argument is just around the corner. It is the argument that is related to the hiatus that has been announced in the context of austerity. I can completely understand it, there is a forceful logic to it, but there is another hiatus, if I might put it like this. It would be forcefully true when the 20-year rule comes into effect and will be much truer in five, seven or eight years from now insofar as it has truth today. We still have a pressing need in public areas for a certain type of work in an official history programme.
Let me explain what I mean and take the case of the history of the Northern Ireland Office. If you want to look at the volume of official publications on Northern Ireland on the shelf of our Library, you will find a shelf of official publications including the report on Bloody Sunday and the Finucane report. There are hundreds of thousands of pages, mostly dealing with matters of that sort, occasions when the state has been seen to behave not very well. I have no objection to that; I was the historical adviser to the Bloody Sunday tribunal report. However, it is somewhat ridiculous that there is no account of the work of those officials on the British side who struggled to bring about a peace process. It is astonishing that we are silent on the more creative, positive, though no doubt deeply flawed aspects of the work of our state officials while we are so loud in announcing some of the rather bad things that went on. That seems an astonishing way to proceed.
The same point can be made about how aspects of Foreign and Commonwealth Office history in the 1940s and 1950s have been dealt with in recent times. We now seem to think that the way to educate the public about what happened in the past is to apologise or to have a large and expensive inquiry about something very bad. That may well be necessary, but this is the case for a proper, official history programme. With the hiatus that still now exists, particularly in the Northern Ireland Office, the many arguments there have been about legacy in Northern Ireland, the sense there that the past has not been properly dealt with and the small sums involved, there is a case for the Government to reconsider their approach of austerity.
There is a further point made in Sir Joe Pilling’s report that is worth drawing attention to. He says that the internet now allows you to publish a lengthy set of footnotes and a lengthier text—the full scholarly history—but a 200-page shorter version as the book. That seems another way for government to avoid unnecessary expense. In other words, I am arguing that this can be done quite cheaply. I would like to see the Government reconsider the force of the Pilling report of 2009.
Lord Thomas of Swynnerton
Forgive me for speaking in the gap. I agree very strongly with the arguments of my noble friend Lord Butler for a historical adviser to many government departments. I had the privilege of accompanying the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, on a visit he made in 1981 to South America. It was not at all clear what I was doing, but I accompanied him as a historian of the Spanish world. When we got to Brazil, an official of the Brazilian Foreign Minister asked me what my mission was. I said, “I am Lord Carrington’s historical adviser”. He had not appointed me; I appointed myself. The Brazilian official said, “What a good idea —we must have one too”.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I declare an interest as a board member of the Brown Archive Trust, a Scottish registered charity that owns the personal papers of Gordon Brown MP, which are in the process of being deposited with the Churchill Archives Centre in Cambridge. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank, on securing this debate and on his persistence in sponsoring earlier debates on similar themes. He does us all a great service.
This has been a very high-quality debate, which has possibly fallen into three topics. First, there was official histories: the balance of opinion seems clear that they are a very important part of the overall architecture of the responsibilities of governance and accountability. I hope the Minister will be able to give us some thoughts on that when he comes to reply. I certainly find them fascinating. They are important, and we ignore them at our peril. Secondly, there was the question picked up initially by the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, and graphically explained by my noble friend Lord Prescott: are the papers in good order? I want to come back to that later on. Thirdly, there was the interesting point from the noble Lord, Lord Butler, about historical advisers. I will also be interested to hear the response of the Minister to that.
I will focus on e-mails. I have done some work on the Brown papers—the papers relating to the Administration headed by Gordon Brown. I thank the staff in the Cabinet Office and Treasury for their expertise and support when I had to access the files for various issues in the past year or so. I have had some sense of what my noble friend Lord Prescott was saying but by and large my experience has been good and I have been able to find the papers I needed reasonably in the time. I am grateful to those who supported us in that.
However, Mr Brown’s Administration was the first that was almost entirely digital. Papers, minutes, notes and messages were all exchanged electronically, and the key evidence of meetings and events—which I notice is one of the main foci of the National Archives’ work—were in electronic form, as were the diaries. Of course, there are some traditional papers in the manila files which characterise the way Whitehall keeps its data on Administrations, but they are mostly simply print-outs from the electronic system. I know to my cost, because I spent many hours looking at them, that the paper files contain some very substantial gaps. My main concern is that the e-mails that support and exemplify how policy was decided are not generally incorporated into the paper files. Indeed, the e-mail files are kept separate and no work seems to have been done on them since the end of Mr Brown’s Administration.
Can the Minister explain what the government policy is here? I am assured—and have some evidence to back this up—that e-mails are being kept and that technology is being looked at so that they are progressively kept alive. However, keeping records is not the same as keeping records permanently. If you keep records permanently, it means that somebody has assessed the records and found them to have enduring long-term value, selected them, made them safe and secure and can find them when they are required. Keeping records indefinitely means we cannot find a basis to set a retention rule on them.
Although staff in No. 10 were encouraged to file material, we need a lot more than that. The current standard seems to be that e-mail accounts get removed after the Government change or a member of staff leaves. Surely that should happen only after a pre-exit process in which an archivist and an employee go through the e-mail account together and decide how to deal with the e-mails or in a post-exit process where an archivist looks for e-mails that need to be kept and ensures that they are catalogued and tagged for future access. That approach would at least recognise that, in the real world, people cannot be relied on comprehensively and routinely to deal with their individual e-mails by filing or deleting as they go along. E-mail communications are exchanged with such frequency that backlogs quickly scale up to a size that makes patient sifting and sorting virtually impossible.
We also need to recognise that the electronic way of working is intrinsically different from earlier, paper-based systems and our archiving needs to reflect that. E-mails typically deal with several different topics in one chain. How are they to be broken up and filed across those various aspects? Even if an individual never used their work e-mail account for non-work correspondence, their account is still likely to contain personal information of a sensitive nature exchanged with colleagues. That needs to be addressed. E-mails within a ministerial context are often political in nature: issues that perhaps should not reach the permanent archive but should be made available to those parties involved. Also, within e-mails it is hard to establish electronic document management systems that work. Access to e-mail archives is problematic because the information contained in the totality of the archive—virtually accessible if you go straight into an e-mail archive—is so sensitive that the National Archives might well have difficulty in imposing a rule that does not exclude very large amounts of information. That point was made earlier.
Of course, this is a very general area. I am sure that the issues that I have touched on here work in commercial companies as well as in government. A quote from an eminent historian of American higher education, Winton Solberg, is worth recalling at this stage:
“historical research will be absolutely impossible in the future unless”,
archivists find,
“a way to save e-mail”.
We need an approach to e-mail that results in staff leaving behind an e-mail account that their colleagues and successors can routinely access and use, without unduly harming either the account holder or people mentioned in their correspondence. We also need defensible access rules and, importantly, retention rules. I suspect it is beyond the ability of a single organisation to develop such an approach because it involves changes to available tools in the technology, to the way we think of an e-mail account and to how we ask colleagues to treat e-mails. I look forward to hearing from the Minister about what progress has been made in this crucial area.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank for initiating this debate. I am sure the House is fully aware of his longstanding interest in these matters and the great experience he brings to bear in debates such as these, as demonstrated by his contribution today. I also thank all noble Lords for the valuable contributions they made which raised several important questions. I hope that I am able to address most, if not all, of the issues. I will write on any questions left outstanding.
I also pay tribute to my noble friend for his work within the privy counsellors’ group, the “three wise men” as they are often referred to in this particular area. If debates such as this are about prompting interest, as a Minister in the Government, this was a new area for me. It has certainly prompted my interest, and I am looking forward to my visit to the National Archives in the next couple of weeks or so.
Turning first to official histories, my noble friend Lord Rodgers and the noble Lord, Lord Bew, referred to the reviews commissioned by the then Cabinet Secretary, the noble Lord, Lord O’Donnell, and conducted by Sir Joe Pilling and Mr Bill Hamilton. They recommended that the official history programme should be continued under the auspices of the Cabinet Office under the name “the public history programme”. They proposed substantial changes to raise the profile and relevance of the programme, including an increase in the involvement of sponsor departments and outside bodies, a revamping of the publishing arrangements and an enhancement to its governance procedures.
Several noble Lords referred to the fact that, given the current economic constraints, the Government do not plan to implement the proposed changes at the current time, and I will return to this. However, we are moving forward with the completion of the existing programme, which will conclude with the publication of The Official History of the Joint Intelligence Committee: Volume 2 in 2016. Work on this volume will, we hope, be completed by the end of 2015, after which point the recommendations will be revisited.
My noble friend Lord Rodgers referred to expense. Without incurring disproportionate expense, it is not possible to determine the overall cost of the current series of official histories. However, for the last year for which published costs are available, 2006-07, the net cost was £176,000. This cost includes fees and expenses of historians and research assistants and costs associated with publication, but excludes staff costs of Cabinet Office administrative support and accommodation-related overheads. Noble Lords will understand that until the future shape of any programme has been determined it will not be possible to estimate the likely future costs. I reiterate the words of my noble friend Lord McNally when he previously answered a debate on this subject:
“As for the official history programme, a good deal of work is already in progress, and I hope that we can review future work in happier economic circumstances. I emphasise again my enthusiasm for the programme of official histories. It would be a tragedy if we were to allow them to wither on the vine”.—[Official Report, 17/1/12; col. 547.]
I share his sentiments.
The noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, in his excellent contribution to today’s debate, referred with his usual aplomb to the histories of MI5 and the Secret Intelligence Service written, respectively, by Professor Christopher Andrew and Professor Keith Jeffery. I should clarify for the House that these were authorised histories, more akin to departmental histories, and were not commissioned under the official history programme. The noble Lord also suggested that an authorised or official history of GCHQ would be a valuable addition to those recent intelligence histories. In fact, nearly all of GCHQ’s records of the period roughly corresponding to that covered by Professor Jeffery’s history of SIS have already been released at the National Archives. I agree with the noble Lord that it is therefore open to any historian—indeed, we have historians in the Chamber—to write their own history of GCHQ. I look forward to such books being written.
Turning to the arrangements for preserving government archives, we have grounds to be optimistic given the progress made in a number of areas since 2008. First, on the responsibility for public record keeping, in line with the Public Records Act 1958, government departments are responsible for their records up to the point that they are transferred to the care of the National Archives. The National Archives provides departments with guidance and supervision, but decisions on which records to select for permanent preservation remain the departments’ own.
On guidance, in June 2009 the Cabinet Office and the National Archives revised the guidance on the management of private office papers. November 2010 saw the revision of the Civil Service Code, which now emphasises the importance of keeping accurate official records and handling information as openly as possible within the legal framework. In December 2010, the Cabinet Manual was issued, and this includes a section on official information and maintaining official records for departments. A question was raised by my noble friend Lord Rodgers about reminding Permanent Secretaries about their accountability for record keeping in their departments. It is from the Cabinet Manual that Permanent Secretaries should draw their guidance.
The noble Lord, Lord Prescott, raised several issues in his contribution, which I am sure we all found entertaining. To save on the high cost of file storage in central London, certain records have been outsourced to secure locations outside London. Regrettably, I am informed that mislabelling of the box containing the diaries of the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, led a more extensive search being required. I am sorry for any delay that that caused. However, I am sure that all noble Lords are delighted to learn that he has now perceived a positive response, and I am sure we are all looking forward to the publication of the noble Lord’s diaries; I am sure that they will make an entertaining read for us all.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I am sure that my noble friend Lord Prescott can speak for himself, but I think his point was that there are points, particularly in today’s world, where it is vital for people to be able to respond quickly and precisely to allegations made, for whatever reason, in the press. I accept the Minister’s general point, but I do not think he responded to my noble friend’s point. Can he give us some assurance about how quickly these things can be dealt with in future?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
First, I have apologised for the delay. It has been recognised that that should not have happened. Of course measures have been taken to ensure that the archive records should be labelled properly. I give an assurance that that has been done.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I am sure that the noble Lord will agree with me that labelling matters; it is good to know whose diaries are where.
In response to another point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, the noble Lord, Lord Butler, is absolutely correct that former Ministers can see their papers within their former departments. I assure the House that this is also outlined in the Cabinet Manual, which is available online. The noble Lord, Lord Butler, also talked about the coverage of historical advisers and sections across Whitehall. The FCO still has a historical section, the head of which is Patrick Salmon. I will write to the noble Lord on the coverage of historical advisers across Whitehall in general and, of course, place a copy of that letter in the Library.
On other initiatives, the National Archives’ information management assessment programme began in 2008. To date, most of the departments of state and several key agencies have been assessed and the remainder will be assessed during 2013-14. The National Archives is also about to begin a series of ongoing reassessments. The published reports of these assessments highlight good practice and make targeted, pragmatic recommendations for improvement. The National Archives works with each department to develop an action plan to address any risks and issues identified in the report.
The noble Lord, Lord Bew, referred to the 20-year rule. As noble Lords will be aware, from 1 January this year central government began its 10-year transition from the previous 30-year rule to the new 20-year rule. To smooth this transition, the National Archives has, with the active participation of departments across government, comprehensively revised its guidance and processes for the selection and transfer of records. The National Archives has been tasked to collect and publish regular reports on departments’ progress in reviewing and selecting records for permanent preservation during the transition period. The most recent report, with returns from 84 departments and agencies, was published on the National Archives’ website on 1 July. This level of transparency around government’s records management is, I suggest, unprecedented. With these reports and the transition itself, we have come a long way from the days, prior to the Freedom of Information Act, when our best hopes for transparent government lay with such excellent initiatives as the one led by the noble Lord, Lord Waldegrave.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, rightly raised digital records. Much work has been carried out to clarify and address the challenges presented by the shift from paper to digital records in the business of government. The National Archives now has greater confidence that the much discussed black hole in our history wrought by obsolete digital formats is unlikely to materialise on the scale that had once been feared. However, it is important that in the National Archives programme new technology is fully embraced. Digital continuity is also now taken much more seriously across government than it was five years ago. The programme of training instigated by the noble Lord, Lord O’Donnell, during his time as Cabinet Secretary has certainly aided a better understanding of our digital records and improved usability and accessibility. Of course, there remains the challenge of reviewing large volumes of digital records for sensitivity ahead of their potential release under the 20-year rule, and the National Archives is working with other expert bodies to develop solutions.
I am pressed for time but, in conclusion, we all recognise that there remains much to do to ensure that government records in all forms survive for future researchers and historians; indeed, that was expressed by all noble Lords today. However, I hope that noble Lords will take from today’s debate some reassurance that these issue continue to be explored and addressed and, more importantly, that much more of the Government’s work in this area is open to scrutiny by Members of this House than ever before.
The noble Lord, Lord Butler, said in his contribution that Governments need to look at history. He referred to the late Lady Thatcher and her policy of a panel of experts; I think that we can learn a great deal. The National Archives represents our history. I suppose, as a Minister of the current Government, that it is apt to finish with a quote from Sir Winston Churchill, who said:
“Study history, study history. In history lies all the secrets of statecraft”.
Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
“Amendment of Education Act 1996
(1) Section 403 of the Education Act 1996 is amended as follows.
(2) After subsection (1B) insert—
“(1BA) Nothing in subsection (1B) prevents teaching the tenets of the relevant religion or religious denomination concerning marriage and its importance for family life and the bringing up of children to registered pupils at schools which have a religious character.”
(3) After subsection (2) insert—
“(3) For the purposes of subsection (1BA)—
(a) a school has a religious character if it is designated as a school having such a character by an order made by the Secretary of State under section 69 of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 (“the 1998 Act”); and (b) “the relevant religion or religious denomination” means the religion or denomination specified in relation to the school under section 69(4) of the 1998 Act.”
The Lord Bishop of Leicester
My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 95, and I am glad to do so after a dinner break which I hope will have had the effect of moving noble Lords to see that this amendment merits the support of all sides of the House, whatever our disagreements may have been in the many days of debate thus far.
This amendment would ensure that there is no conflict between the guidance issued by the Secretary of State on the teaching of sex and relationships education, which includes teaching on the importance of marriage, and the obligation of schools of a religious character to teach in accordance with their trusts. It will ensure that while such schools will continue to have guidance issued by the Secretary of State about the teaching of marriage as it will be defined by the Bill, it does not prevent them, within the context of sex and relationships education, in the words of the amendment, also from,
“teaching the tenets of the relevant religion or religious denomination concerning marriage and its importance for family life and the bringing up of children”.
It is important to stress what this amendment is not about. It is not about seeking opt-outs for teachers, pupils or schools of a religious character from teaching about marriage as the Bill defines it. I, personally, would have no part in proposing that. Nor is it about seeking so-called protections for schools or teachers from the need to promote same-sex marriage. Many in this Chamber and outside, as I know from many conversations, still remain haunted by the ghosts of Section 28. To anyone who is feeling so haunted this evening, I offer the rites of exorcism. Let me be crystal clear: this amendment is categorically not about turning back the clock to those regrettable times. It is about reconciling two principles that have been the cause of many heated debates in this House: the principles of equality in marriage and respect for religious freedom. The focus of the amendment is on schools of a religious character, and how teaching on marriage will and should take place once the Bill becomes law.
An earlier version of the amendment was tabled in Committee by my friend the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds. During the debate on that amendment it was unfortunate that the substance of the proposal was lost amid extended discussions about protections for teachers and schools and freedom from coercion about what to teach. I will address some of those misconceptions shortly but for now I will ask your Lordships not to be distracted by matters that have already been gone over at length and settled. They are not any part of the aim or purpose of this amendment.
This amendment seeks to bring clarity and to resolve a conflict between what schools of a religious character are legally obliged to do on the one hand—to meet the terms of their trusts—and what on the other hand they will be legally obliged to have regard to in terms of statutory guidance from the Secretary of State about the teaching of marriage. The Bill as it is sets both legal obligations on potentially a collision course. The substance of my case for the amendment is that without it, governing bodies of schools of a religious character will be left in a dilemma as to how marriage should be taught and may even be encouraged, through their legal obligations, to require teachers, who must teach according to the tenets of the faith, to disregard the Secretary of State’s guidance altogether. No one in this House, not least those on these Benches, would like to see a situation arise in which schools of a religious character are left in any confusion or doubt, or in which they might frame a policy about teaching marriage that ignores the existence of same-sex marriage entirely. I therefore hope that the amendment will command the support of noble Lords on all sides of this debate.
I shall not repeat in detail the points made in Committee by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds. The situation can be summarised as follows. All schools of a religious character, whether Church of England, Roman Catholic, Methodist, Jewish or other faiths, of which there are several in my own diocese of Leicester, are legally required to ensure that teaching takes place in the school according to the tenets of the respective faith. Church of England schools, for example, are established on trusts that require them to provide education in accordance with the tenets of the Church of England. They are legally obliged to comply with that requirement in their trust deeds, and a failure to do so would result in the governors acting unlawfully.
As far as teaching sex and relationships education goes, all maintained schools are required to “have regard to” guidance issued by the Secretary of State for Education under Section 403 of the Education Act 1996. That guidance says that pupils must,
“learn the nature of marriage and its importance for family life and the bringing up of children”.
I will clarify the point here, which is the very specific area of sex and relationships education. The principal provision of Section 403 of the Education Act 1996 requires SRE to be,
“given in such a manner as to encourage pupils to have due regard to moral considerations and the value of family life”.
Section 403 then builds on that general requirement by requiring the Secretary of State of State to issue guidance on the nature of marriage, and so on, and requiring heads and governing bodies to have regard to it. We are not talking here about teaching the tenets of the religion in a general sense but in this very specific area of sex and relationships education and moral considerations on the value of family life. That is why this particular area impinges on the tenets of the religion in a way that education generally does not. That is the reason to address this situation specifically.
After the Bill becomes law, the references in the guidance will of course be taken to mean marriage as the Bill defines it, which as anyone observing these debates will surely know by now, is not exactly how the tenets of the great majority of the world faiths define it. This leaves schools of a religious character with two competing legal duties. One says that the teaching has to be according to the tenets of the faith, while the other says that they must have regard to the guidance.
Why might that be a problem? Some may wonder why schools cannot just teach both alongside each other in a sensible way. That, of course, is certainly the approach we want to see in Church of England schools. However, the crucial point is that there are strong legal grounds to conclude that the obligation to comply with the terms of the trust deeds of a school of a religious character outweighs the duty to have regard to the Secretary of State’s guidance. One is a duty to comply and the other is a duty to have regard. Unless Members of the House accept the amendment and resolve the conflict in the Bill, there is nothing to stop some schools of a religious character making a decision on legal grounds to set aside the guidance altogether. I am sure that noble Lords are aware of the diversification of provision being pursued by the Department for Education and the potential for a wider range of providers to enter the system. I contend that this makes it more necessary than ever to ensure that governing bodies are not tempted to set aside the guidance in this way. The amendment will give necessary space for schools of a religious character to stay within the terms of the statutory framework and significantly reduces the risk of them declining to teach about the changed legal nature of marriage at all.
Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, I support the amendment of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester. We know that parents go to great lengths to get their children into faith schools, which are hugely popular. Some 30% of schools are faith schools. Parents value the ethos, discipline and character of the schools, which teach the importance of marriage for family life and for bringing up children. Of course, that is nothing new. It is built into our existing law. As the right reverend Prelate said, Section 403(1A) of the Education Act 1996 requires the Secretary of State to issue guidance to ensure that pupils,
“learn the nature of marriage and its importance for family life and the bringing up of children”.
We know that in future the word “marriage” in Section 403 will mean both opposite-sex and same-sex marriage, so when the Bill is enacted it will change the meaning of “marriage”.
As I understand it, the amendment is designed to tackle a problem that will arise by reason of the wording in Section 403(1A) that requires more than ensuring that children learn about the law of the land. The section puts an obligation on the Secretary of State to ensure that children, I repeat,
“learn the nature of marriage and its importance for family life and the bringing up of children”.
Those words are of concern because they entail more than the teaching of fact or law. They require schools to teach that marriage is valuable and beneficial for family life and the bringing up of children. As the right reverend Prelate said, it could be in conflict with the Secretary of State’s guidance.
In this amendment, we want to ensure that schools with a religious character are able to continue ensuring that pupils learn about the importance of marriage for family life, and that they are not prevented from doing so by the redefinition of marriage in Section 403 caused by the Bill. It is a modest amendment that will alleviate the concerns of many schools about the conflict that could arise, which was outlined by the right reverend Prelate.
I am sure that noble Lords will say that it is simply not needed. That argument has been used against a lot of the amendments that have been put forward. However, I was reminded of Voltaire, who said:
“Define your terms, you will permit me again to say, or we shall never understand one another”.
It is important that we understand each other, especially as legislators, and are clear about what we consider to be the law of the land.
The Government last Monday saw no harm in redefining some of their terms. Previously, we were told that it was not necessary to clarify parts of the Bill but, in Committee, the Government, generously perhaps, put forward amendments to further clarify the wording around the Public Order Act and the definition of “compel”—amendments which we consider have really improved the Bill. Our aim is not to allow schools with a religious character to avoid teaching the law of the land; as the Minister rightly pointed out,
“such schools do already teach about topics that may be considered sensitive, such as divorce, and they do so without issue”.—[Official Report, 24/6/13; col. 567.]
But we think that all schools, including schools with a religious character, should teach the law, and this amendment has been very carefully drafted to ensure that schools will not be enabled to ignore any guidance requiring them to do so. It is not designed to prevent schools educating them about the law. On the contrary, we want schools to teach the law, to ensure that it is taught with clarity, is even-handed and, as they understand it, within the character and ethos of faith schools, without conflicting with the Secretary of State’s guidance.
Lord Pannick
My Lords, I understand the concerns that have moved the right reverend Prelate and the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, but I think that the amendment is inappropriate, for these reasons. Section 403, which the amendment addresses, is concerned with sex education. There are many contexts in which sex education raises religious issues, including homosexuality, contraception, and no doubt many more. I cannot understand why there is a need for a specific statutory provision in Section 403 to address the impact of same-sex marriage on sex education when there is no need for a statutory provision to address other issues that may have a religious dimension.
The right reverend Prelate referred to Section 403(1A), which, as the noble Baroness pointed out, says that the guidance to be issued by the Secretary of State must put sex education in the context of marriage and family life. But there is a very good reason why the guidance requires sex education to be put in the context of family life and marriage. That is because sex education should not be taught simply on the basis of physicality; it should be presented, as I am sure that all noble Lords would agree, in the context of responsibility and the development of relationships. Surely, if and when sex education addresses homosexuality, it should equally be taught in that same context of responsibility and other relationships and, as a result of this Bill, that will include same-sex marriage. For this amendment to be adopted would, I am afraid, run counter to everything else that we are seeking to achieve in this Bill.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I rise to give my support, not surprisingly perhaps, to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester, who moved this amendment with balance and moderation, even though with a quiet passion. I do not believe that the acceptance of the amendment can do any damage whatever to a Bill that is shortly to complete its passage through your Lordships’ House. We are not debating tonight the rights and wrongs of same-sex marriage as against traditional marriage or rehearsing again the arguments that we specifically add extra definitions to two forms of marriage within the Bill. In this amendment, we seek to give a degree of reassurance to those who are concerned at the enormous social change that the passage of this Bill will bring about in our country. There is no point in anyone denying that there is going to be enormous social change.
Those parents who send their children to faith schools or denominational schools, whether they be Church of England, Roman Catholic or any other faith, have a right to expect two things above all. The first is that their children be brought up and taught to understand the realities of the society in which they live. Of course it is right—and the right reverend Prelate stressed this —for guidance given by the Secretary of State to be not only received but followed. Of course it is necessary that my grandchildren—and many of your Lordships have grandchildren—should be brought up to understand that Parliament has, in its wisdom, decided to effect a major change to the social fabric of our land. But if that change is to come about with a degree of mutual tolerance and understanding —and, yes, good humour—it is important that the second requirement to which parents look should be fulfilled. Their children should be taught the basic tenets of the faith.
There need be nothing incompatible between these two aims. I believe that the manner in which the right reverend Prelate introduced the amendment showed that that is foremost among his aims and objectives and those of his colleagues on the Bishops’ Bench. There are times when we in this House can benefit from the guidance and wisdom of the Lords spiritual. I believe that tonight is one of them. The acceptance of this amendment will show sensitivity and understanding on the part of the Government. It will do nothing to damage the cause of those who believe passionately—and I respect their beliefs—in the essential not just rightness but necessity of the legislation before us. There are many who believe that it is utterly necessary. I do not share that view, but I hope that when we have finished our deliberations on this Bill, either next Monday or whenever we have to re-debate amendments sent back from another place, in all parts of this House there will be a spirit of mutual tolerance and acceptance of what we have enacted. That will call for a degree of charity on the part of us all, whichever side we have taken in this debate. If we can assist in laying the foundation for that spirit of charity tonight, as the Bill approaches its final stages, we should do so.
I warmly commend the amendment and even more warmly commend the spirit in which it was moved and I very much hope that it can be accepted without a Division by your Lordships’ House.
Lord Alli
My Lords, I have spent some time trying to understand the issues raised by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester in this amendment. As I understand it, the right reverend Prelate is worried about the teaching of marriage in faith schools and academies as part of sex and relationship education. He has explained his concerns and in particular the conflict that he perceives between the guidance issued by the Secretary of State and the teaching of the tenets of the religion as protected in the Bill.
I am sorry that I cannot support the right reverend Prelate on this amendment, for many of the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, outlined. I am also afraid that, if we agree to this amendment, which I do not believe is absolutely necessary, it will provide a foothold for those who are opposed to this Bill to reopen old debates and old wounds. I believe that it has the potential to be quite destructive in the hands of those who do not want this Bill to succeed.
While I cannot support the amendment, I want to put on record my growing appreciation of the new direction of travel within the Church of England. I did not know that the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury would be in this place, but anybody who heard his presidential address to the General Synod cannot but have been impressed by his thoughts on the matter. He said that, after listening to our Second Reading debate, he could not fail to be struck by the,
“overwhelming change of cultural hinterland”.
He said:
“Predictable attitudes were no longer there”.
He committed the Church of England to work tirelessly against homophobic bullying in the schools that it runs and among the children whom it educates. I want to pay tribute, once again, to him for fuelling this journey which, I believe, can only help society as a whole.
I also pay tribute to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester. I know that this Bill is not what the Church of England wanted; it would rather that this Bill had not come about. However, the right reverend Prelate, under difficult circumstances, has navigated very choppy waters with some skill and conviction. It is not the right reverend Prelate’s amendment I fear but those who would use it against us and do the opposite of all that he wants. That is why I cannot support the amendment. I hope that the right reverend Prelate will understand that. I also hope that he will not test the opinion of the House because I, like many in this House, have no appetite to vote against him, for the reasons already given.
Baroness Brinton
My Lords, I support the comments made by the noble Lords, Lord Alli and Lord Pannick, particularly the compliments paid to the right reverend Prelate and the most reverend Primate for their work on this issue. I want to raise a slightly different issue. The right reverend Prelate referred to the difficult balance that faith schools have to strike between complying with the tenets of their trust deeds and having due regard to the directions of the Secretary of State. I absolutely understand that. It may be helpful to quote an Oral Question of Monday 8 July on the new sex and relationships curriculum. I asked about academies, but the answer that I was given refers to all schools. I asked about academies not having to provide sex and relationships education. The noble Lord, Lord Nash, replied:
“My noble friend is quite right that academies are not obliged to teach sex education, although, if they do, they have to have regard to the Secretary of State’s guidance on these matters. I repeat the point that Ofsted inspects for all social, moral and cultural provision in schools, and we will be ensuring that it focuses on this point”.—[Official Report, 8/7/2013; col. 6.]
I raise that point because I see a distinct parallel for faith schools with the way that religious education is taught, whereby the schemes of work that the Church of England has for covering a range of other faiths are sensitive and educational but do not promote those faiths. I absolutely see that parallel here, in that faith schools are not required to promote same-sex marriage but merely to educate pupils about it. Often we get bound up in the idea that SRE is taught only in sex and relationship education classes. However, young pupils will ask about this at peculiar times. Therefore, a school needs a policy. I have seen many faith schools’ policies on SRE that recognise that fact and all staff are empowered in that regard. Therefore, I hope that the right reverend Prelate does not press the amendment because I believe that schools of a religious character can find the protections that they need in the existing Education Act.
The Lord Bishop of Guildford
My Lords, this debate has moved into a different manner of speech by virtue of the gracious response of the noble Lord, Lord Alli, to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester. Indeed, if I may say so, there was graciousness on both sides. I hope that, irrespective of whether the amendment is pressed, and whatever the result of the Division might be if it is pressed, we can have an assurance from the Front Bench that the possible conflict between trust law and the directions of the Secretary of State, to which schools have to have due regard, will be given further attention. If that happens, I believe that we could have a way forward along which we could all walk. I look to the Front Bench to be given an assurance in that area, if that is possible, given the positive exchanges between the noble Lord, Lord Alli, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester.
Lord Eden of Winton
My Lords, I know that this amendment refers to all faith schools but I hope that I may be forgiven if I concentrate my remarks on the only faith schools about which I know anything at all—the Church of England schools. In doing so, I am encouraged to some extent by the report that I read of what the Prime Minister told the national parliamentary prayer breakfast, which took place recently in Westminster Hall. I wish to quote briefly from the article in the Times of 26 June this year, which reported that the Prime Minister said at that prayer breakfast:
“It is encouraging that Christianity still plays such a vital role in our national life. It has had an immense historic influence in the development of our culture and institutions and it motivates British people to wonderful acts of service and self-sacrifice. We are a country with a Christian heritage and we should not be afraid to say so”.
Throughout our debates on the Bill, frequent reference has been made to freedom of speech and equality of treatment and esteem and to the fact that marriage is seen and acknowledged to be the building block of society. Family life and the bringing up of children is one aspect of marriage that will change as a result of this Bill becoming law, though its importance must remain a significant feature in our life. Ideally, the family includes a mother and father, maybe siblings, maybe uncles and aunts and, I hope, grandparents. Grandparents have a significant role in the nurturing and upbringing of children. The aim of a family should be to provide a stable and secure environment for the nurturing of children.
Church schools—and this goes for schools of all faiths—can help families by providing moral guidance and a set of standards that they seek to have upheld. This is of increasing significance in our life today when the pressures on children and family life are so enormous. We have recently had several references in this House to video games and other pressures to which children are subjected. The more we can hold on to standards that are enshrined in the values of faith schools, the better it will be for the nurturing of children. Because of the change in the definition of marriage that will inevitably follow the passing of this Bill, it is very desirable that, notwithstanding the observations of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, these words form part and parcel of the Bill: church schools should be encouraged to teach the tenets of religion,
“concerning marriage and its importance for family life and the bringing up of children”.
Those words need emphasis over and over again because there are many, many people beyond this House who are afraid that those principles of married life will be undermined by this Bill.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
I rise with very considerable trepidation, with humility and, if I may say so, with some dubiety in relation to this issue. I come from Welsh nonconformist stock. I am a Welsh Presbyterian and my family have been Welsh Presbyterians for well over 200 years. However, I appreciate and respect the Church of England, the position that it occupies in the history of this land, its status as an established Church and all faith schools. As a lawyer or, more accurately, as a retired lawyer, my question is whether there is a point where a faith school or a body operating under any trust is entitled, if it so wishes, to go contrary to a principle that had been clearly and specifically spelt out in an Act of Parliament. The answer must be in the negative.
I do not know exactly what the circumstances might be in relation to this section under the Education Act 1996. If the right reverend Prelate is right to say that the amendment is no more than making an assurance doubly so—in other words consolidating a line that is already there—I would accept it. On the other hand, if the amendment allows the whole principle of the Bill to be endangered and imperilled, one must oppose it.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, I am seeking to obey the rules of the House and not repeat things said in Committee.
Faith schools teach children. I say that because my county of Lancashire, where I chaired the Education Committee for 10 years, had the largest percentage and number of faith schools. I should point out that not all parents in counties such as Lancashire choose faith schools. They are the nearest schools, and parents cannot choose to have their children’s travel to a non-faith school paid for, whereas they could be paid for travel to a faith school. I tell the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, that that is the case. Noble Lords have referred to the fact that the option for faith school education entitled children’s travel to be paid for.
However, faith schools seek to teach the whole community, wherever they are. I have been around for so long that I remember Faith in the City, Geoffrey Duncan and those who argued that the role of faith schools was to teach the whole community in which they were located. Some of the faith schools in Lancashire had a majority of Muslim pupils, and probably still do. However, those schools taught the children. That was the issue—the teaching of the children. The confidence of those Muslim parents was based on the fact that the school would respect the views of the parents as well as teach the children about the beliefs of that community. Some noble Lords in this debate have spoken as though this legislation will create a new set of circumstances among the communities, the families and the friends of the children who go to the school. That is not the case: this legislation recognises what is happening in our communities. It may be giving a new name to civil partnerships, but those relationships actually exist now in the families, homes and communities of the children who will be in the schools.
I have tremendous respect for the aims of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester. In fact, many years ago, the Bishop of Leicester gave a lecture at my wedding on the importance of marriage and education, but it was not the right reverend Prelate who is with us tonight. I have been married too long for it to be this young right reverend Prelate.
I listened very carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Baker, although I did not always listen to him, when he was in office in government. He explained that we do not need to change the 1996 Act to secure the benefits that the right reverend Prelate is seeking to achieve. Some noble Lords have talked as though our schools are places where ideas are promoted. These days, even young children, and certainly 13 year-olds, will ask questions; but the idea that a teacher can go into a classroom and tell children of 13 what to think or know is pretty ludicrous. Those children are growing up in the world; they recognise it. In fact, we are recognising the world of those children who recognise it.
A 12 year-old said to me, “What are you doing in the House of Lords?” I said, “Same-sex marriage”. The child said, “Why should there be any argument about that—who is arguing?” I said, “Well—some of the people from religious backgrounds.” The child said to me, “You know, I could go off God.” That was a child in a church school in rural Essex. I said, “You really mustn’t blame God for what some of the religious followers say. It isn’t always God who is wrong; it may be their interpretation.” I hope that the right reverend Prelate will not feel the need to press his amendment and that the Minister will be able to assuage any fears he feels.
In closing, I want to say how important it is that all children in all our schools—and I am certain that the denominational schools feel this—ought to be able to love and respect all members of their communities and families. Those children know that those people are there now. Perhaps we are a bit late in recognising it.
Lord Elton
I hope that my noble friend will be able to clarify for us the perceived conflict between the guidance and the documents—the names of which I forget—under which the faith schools have to operate. It seems to me that what these amendments ask is not the big thing it is suggested it is. Surely it must be right for church and other faith schools to teach about the world as it is and as it changes. The world is changing, but faiths do not necessarily change at the same rate or, indeed, at all. However, they are part of the world and therefore must be taught.
What is at issue is whether there can be recruiting or promoting of the particular faith—it need not be Christianity—or the particular orientation, which need not be heterosexuality. That is what is at issue. I would like my noble friend to assure us that there is a legally proof way through this which preserves the right of all faiths to explain to children what the tenets of that faith are while at the same time addressing the actual world which the children will grow up into without being in fear of being in breach of the law. I believe I am right in saying that the original concern of the right reverend Prelate was not so much with teachers as with the foundations. We have not heard so much about them, but this has to be available as a protection to the foundations of schools. In my view, it should not be phrased in such a way as to threaten in any way the intentions of this Bill.
The Lord Bishop of Winchester
My Lords, I support the right reverend Prelate’s amendment. Neither the equal marriage Bill nor this amendment would change the doctrinal position of religious organisations. In fact, the Bill recognises in Clause 1(3) that the doctrine of the Church of England remains that marriage is the union of one man and one woman.
This amendment is about religious educational institutions, as the right reverend Prelate has said, operating within the ethos of their faith and charitable foundations, while giving due regard to the breadth of opinion on the nature of marriage, including equal marriage. It ensures a true diversity while allowing for a particular perspective to be honoured. The Human Rights Act, Articles 9 and 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights and Section 403 of the Education Act 1996 may seem to preserve religious freedom or the exercise of discretion in selecting materials for SRE teaching, but the legal process proving that, if these freedoms are challenged, might be lengthy and very expensive. It is better to amend at this stage and thus resolve the conflict between different legal requirements.
The amendment will protect and promote religious freedom, and thereby enable the ongoing contribution to the common good of the religious traditions and diversities of this country. Marriage makes a great and fundamental contribution to our society. It is better that all views are included and encouraged for all to flourish. There is no homophobic Trojan horse in this amendment; rather, there is a recognition of true diversity of opinion. God willing, we will move beyond homophobic attitudes, and this amendment is one way to do that. It would ensure that true diversity is taught in a faith context and would provide formation for the almost 1 million children for whom the Church of England is responsible in its schools.
Baroness Byford
My Lords, I have sat patiently through many of our debates, but I did not speak during the Committee stage. I should like to support the amendment moved by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester. What it seeks from us all, and particularly from the Minister who is to respond, is clarity. In passing this Bill—and I am sure that it will pass—we are actually changing the law. I do not accept some of the contributions which say that there is no need for it because the issue is covered. I do not think it is, and therefore this amendment is extremely important.
I question why so many parents, often from no faith at all, choose to send their children to faith schools. What is it about faith schools that they think their child will benefit from? Many people whom I speak to will say, very sensibly, that while they themselves do not have a particularly strong faith, there is something within the teaching in faith schools that is extremely important. Into that comes marriage and the sorts of things that we talked about earlier.
To me, this amendment is about seeking clarification and whether we can still teach the religious freedoms and teach about marriage based on one man and one woman. I was grateful for the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Alli, earlier, but extremely dismayed when he said that it could be used against us. Against whom? This is an inclusive Bill. It might be something that some of us are struggling to come to terms with, but to use that argument against what is being proposed in this Bill I found deeply concerning.
The Lord Bishop of Exeter
My Lords, I had not intended to speak. I know that it is unusual for there to be so many interventions from these Benches. I believe that one point has not yet been as fully made as it might have been. I was prompted to these remarks by listening to the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington. I agreed with most of what she had to say, but I was led to a very different conclusion. I fully agree with her understanding of church schools and what they exist for. For that reason, I have always refused to fall in with lumping church schools in that easy category of faith schools. The Church of England schools—this is particularly true of the primary sector—exist as part of our mission to the whole community. We are there to serve the community as a whole. To that end—I speak as a former teacher, governor and chair of boards of education—our schools have always sought to hold to an integrity which involves being true to the church’s teaching and to trust law, and true to the law of the land. That is absolutely at the heart of the dual system, which has underpinned much of the education of this country for a very long time.
This Bill introduces in a novel way a potential conflict between trust law and education law. The amendment in the name of my noble friend the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester seeks to reconcile that potential conflict in the Bill. That seems to me to be hugely important. I am not a lawyer, but I know that there is a recognised branch of jurisprudence which goes under the heading “conflict of law”. I also know that the study of that subject teaches that where the conflict between different laws has to be resolved, it always raises questions of jurisdiction and normally raises questions of supra-jurisdiction—a jurisdiction greater than the two parties to the conflict.
There is deep concern in this country at present about the loss of jurisdiction from the High Court of Parliament. I enter a final plea to the Minister, and to all those on the Front Benches, to consider the advantage of having a potential conflict between trust and educational law dealt with in the Bill, rather than leaving it to a jurisdiction which may well be beyond the High Court of Parliament.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I, too, pay huge tribute to the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury for what he said in his first speech to the General Synod as head of the church and the Anglican communion about the changing attitude towards gays, the need to fight prejudice against homosexuals and the fact that the church looks, in his words, “out of step”. I am also grateful to him, and the right reverend Prelates the Bishop of Leicester and the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds, for the way in which they have considered the Bill. I have absolutely no doubt that they will ensure that Church of England schools will teach about same-sex marriages in a factual way, without any prejudice, and that they will naturally also teach about their own views of marriage, as is right and proper. I also know that they are absolutely against any opt-outs. I wholeheartedly agree that marriage is a very good thing for society and that it should be celebrated.
I understand the concerns that have been expressed about the pace of change by both the Church of England and the Catholic Church, with which I had an excellent meeting last week, for which I am grateful. It is true that it will take a while for some people to get their heads around same-sex marriage, but they will, and they will be comfortable with it. I have had several conversations over the weekend with people who have in the past expressed concern but have already changed their views. Both the vote and the debates in this House and the speech by the most reverend Primate have had a real impact on those people.
On the issue at hand, we have said throughout our deliberations on the Bill that, in our view, amendments pertaining to teaching and faith schools are not necessary. Teachers are already able to teach according to their religious tenets. That will not change, nor will the ability of faith schools to operate within the tenets of their faith. Some people, while generally accepting that point, say, “Why not give comfort to those who are concerned by putting something in the Bill?”. I understand that the right reverend Prelate is making a legal point. Others, including those on the Bishops’ Bench, want to ensure that the legal and religious definitions of marriage can be taught alongside one another in an appropriate way. I am well aware and grateful that the Bishops do not agree with those who are seeking “protections”.
I also know that the reasoning behind the amendment is to give space for schools of a religious character to stay within the terms of the statutory framework and to reduce the risk of them declining to teach about the changed legal nature of marriage at all. I warmly welcome the fact that the Church of England is clearly determined to pursue this inclusive approach for its own schools and to commend it to others. Indeed, that is exactly what should happen under the Bill as drafted, when it becomes law.
I realise that the Church of England and many in the Catholic Church would not wish to see any return to those dreadful days of prejudice but, as has been said many times, prejudice still exists. I know strong professional men and women who are still hesitant, even unwilling, to come out at work. As we do not believe that this amendment is necessary, and because we do not want to risk the way in which it could be interpreted by those who are intolerant or homophobic, I regret that we cannot support it. However, as other noble Lords have said, I hope that the Minister, while not accepting the amendment, will be able to give the necessary reassurance and clarity to the Bishops—and all Members of this House—and to those of other faiths.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I, too, pay tribute to the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury and to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester. I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for the important statement that he issued after Second Reading and to which he referred.
During the past few months, the Secretary of State, my right honourable friend Maria Miller, and I have enjoyed some very constructive, productive and valuable discussions with both the most reverend Primate and the right reverend Prelate and their officials on a range of matters. Something I valued greatly was having the opportunity to get to know Members on the Bishops’ Benches better than I had done up to that point. Our discussions included their concerns about religious freedom for faith schools, which the right reverend Prelate talked about in moving his amendment, and I am grateful to him for the very careful way that he did so.
In responding to the right reverend Prelate and to all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate, I start by stressing that schools with a religious character provide an excellent education for their pupils, while reflecting their beliefs across the curriculum, including in sex and relationship education. We really value the work that faith schools do and I would like to make it clear that there is absolutely nothing in this Bill that affects the ability of faith schools to continue to do this in the future.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester has explained that there is a specific concern—echoed by other noble Lords who have contributed tonight—that without this amendment a potential conflict could arise between a school’s duty to teach its faith ethos and its responsibilities under Section 403 of the Education Act. I understand the importance of this issue and I can assure noble Lords that the Government have considered it very carefully. Noble Lords will have heard me say on many occasions during the passage of this Bill that we are considering this area, and we have done so with great care. However, we believe that this provision is unnecessary. Clearly, I need to reassure the House on why we have come to that view.
In schools of a religious character, teachers deal admirably with teaching about marriages that may not be recognised as such according to the tenets of the relevant faith—for example, marriages of divorcees or, for some religions, mixed-faith marriages. In order to take account of this distinction, they already interpret their duties under Section 403 of the Education Act according to their religious tenets. Faith schools must take the guidance into account when developing their policy on sex and relationship education and, in doing so, can also take into account other matters, including in particular relevant religious tenets. This is already recognised by the current legal framework.
I will expand a little on this and I will respond specifically to the question put to me by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford. “Have regard to” means just that. Having regard to a provision does not mean that it must be followed assiduously should there be a good reason for not doing so. This was made clear in the decision of the Privy Council in Barber v Minister of the Environment in 1997. Faith schools must take the guidance into account when developing their policy on sex and relationship education and, in doing so, can also take into account other matters, including in particular relevant religious tenets. A relevant faith tenet is a perfectly sensible reason in this context and one that the current legal framework recognises.
The Lord Bishop of Leicester
My Lords, I am grateful to all those who have spoken in what has been a serious and gracious debate. I know that I speak for my noble friend the most reverend Primate in expressing gratitude for the tributes that have been paid to his leadership, particularly at the General Synod, and in so many other ways. It is a leadership for which we are growing more and more appreciative, both in the church and in the nation. I thank the Minister for the care, attention, accessibility and understanding that she has unfailingly shown in the conversations that we have had leading up to this debate. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, for helpful conversations in which we have been able to make clear our genuine concerns.
I think that it was Paul Newman in “Cool Hand Luke” who said: “What we have here is a failure to communicate”. At times in this debate it has felt a bit like that because, as those who listened carefully to what was said in support of the amendment know, what I am trying to do is to ensure that the Bill prevents faith schools from opting out of teaching about same-sex marriage. We really are on the same side of the argument and it seems at times that this message has not been heard.
I shall make some specific responses to certain noble Lords. To the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, I would say that Section 403 is the only education provision that refers to marriage and it is the meaning of that word that is being altered by this Bill. We do not need to amend other legislation, as he has suggested, because other education legislation does not deal with marriage. Therefore, the amendment does not run counter to the Bill. It says that there is room for both religious and legal understandings of marriage and that they can live alongside each other in religious schools.
I would just clarify the question that the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, put to us. The position is that there is a difference between a requirement to have regard to statutory guidance and an obligation to comply with the terms of a trust deed. The latter is an unqualified legal obligation. The former is a duty to have regard and is therefore weaker, hence the danger of some religious groups going their own way if the potential conflict is not resolved. That is the point that I tried to make.
On the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, the concern is not that the Bill is changing what goes on in homes and communities but that it changes the law. We need to ensure that the new law and teaching about marriage in church schools can happily coexist. I do not believe that this amendment in any way erodes, undermines or attacks the central purpose of the Bill; rather, it strengthens it.
Having said all that, I know that it is late and that we have much more work to do. The Minister has given what I take to be an undertaking that, if it comes to a conflict, the Government recognise that the trust deed overrides the requirements of the Secretary of State’s guidance. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw this amendment. I reserve the right to consider the implications of this debate further in case we want to bring some of this back at Third Reading.
The Earl of Listowel
“Education: duty of the Secretary of State to provide information
The Secretary of State must provide evidence-based information to teachers on the implications of the measures in this Act for the raising of children and the promotion of family life.”
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, my purpose in moving this amendment is to obtain a statement from the Government of their assessment of the impact of same-sex parenting on child development. I would appreciate a careful and thorough assessment from the Government, perhaps with the aid of an appropriate mental health professional and a statistician, to look across the research that we have currently on this issue and produce a report. In the first place, a letter to me and placed in the Library would be very welcome. Perhaps that might be the basis of further work that could also help with the support for schools that the Minister was just talking about in helping them manage this new piece of legislation.
I will try to be brief, given the hour. I thank the Minister for meeting with me at Committee stage to discuss my concerns. That was very generous of her. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, whom I see in her place, for her kind words on my work in the course of Monday’s business.
A twofold challenge makes me ask these questions. First—I know that this is debatable—the Bill might give a significant, inadvertent nudge to same-sex couples and to teachers, doctors and child and family social workers. Many of us agree that marriage has traditionally been seen as the last and very important step before one starts a family. For many professionals, the Bill might seem to encourage them to think that same-sex parenting is just as good as or even better than heterosexual parenting and nudge them towards, for example, giving IVF, making placements with same-sex foster carers or adoptive parents, or teaching children that same-sex parenting is no longer problematic or debatable. For context in this, your Lordships might recall debates on the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act a few years back, where the duty was removed for clinicians to ensure that those taking part kept in mind the interests of the child of having contact with the father. I fear a gradual erosion of that traditional norm that the best situation for every child is to have a mother and a father.
The second difficulty concerns research. The phenomenon of same-sex parenting is relatively new, and research stretches back only about 30 years. Typical problems are that the samples are of small numbers and too narrow, and that the duration of study was too short. Another problem is that the science is undertaken under pressure of polemic from both sides. There are people here who desperately want this to be proven to be absolutely unproblematic, and others who desperately want this to be shown to be the wrong thing to do entirely. The truth lies somewhere in between and is sometimes hard to find.
Baroness Barker
My Lords, my maiden speech in your Lordships’ House, which I am sure all of your Lordships will remember, was a three-minute speech on a motion put forward by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, about supporting counselling for young homeless people. That was two minutes more than I needed to say what I knew about the subject. Ever since then, the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, is somebody to whom I have paid the utmost attention. His consistent devotion in this House to the cause of children and their well -being is an example to us all. He never ceases or gives up campaigning for that, and is doing so again today.
I agree with him only to the extent that it is important that in future research is undertaken on the effects of the Bill and on families which will come into being when the Bill is passed. I disagree with him, because I think that I detected in what he said that he starts from a base position of belief that somehow this will be bad. I do not, necessarily. This is a very hopeful Bill, which will bring a great deal of stability to families in future—families that have not had stability until now.
It is very helpful that the noble Earl led us into thinking about these matters. I sat and thought during the last debate about how much of a change the Bill will bring about. When I was at school, nobody talked about being gay at all. If they did, they talked about it at best only in terms of a joke, but often in pretty horrible terms. Nobody in their right mind would talk about being gay—we did not. In order for people of my generation to lead the lives we felt we had to lead, we had to go away. Lots of us went off and lived in other places. That will not be an option for many young gay people in future. That is why it is so important that in the communities in which they live they, and their families are understood and accepted, and schools—including church and faith schools—will have a very important part to play.
The noble Earl is right: there is very little research into these issues, not least because not that many families have been able to take part in the research. What research there is is often seized on and used in a very partial way, either by those who take the view that I do or by those who take a more cautious approach. Professor Golombok’s work is peer-reviewed research of the highest level. She may be misinterpreted at times for different purposes, but it is the beginning of an important piece of work. It is also interesting that organisations such as Barnardo’s have begun to look at the effects of earlier legislation on children.
As ever, I take my hat off to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, for having children first and foremost in his mind. I do not think that his amendment is necessary, and I do not think that the Minister will be able to accept it. However, I am glad that he has raised the issue and put it on the agenda for social researchers in future. He is right that this legislation deserves to be researched and tested just like any other.
Lord Alli
The noble Earl has the same effect on me as Tony Benn. Whenever I listen to Tony Benn, I am always convinced. I believe him. He is amazing. When I walk away, I realise that he said the opposite thing to what I believed, and that in my view he was wrong. The noble Earl believes that children brought up in same-sex relationships will do much less well than those brought up by heterosexual parents. That is the noble Earl’s central premise, and every argument he puts forward is about proving it. On Amendment 1, he supported two classes of marriage. On Amendment 46, he contended that there was no definitive research on the subject of children in same-sex relationships, and that the arguments were finely balanced. Given that the noble Earl believes that there is no definitive research, how can he then ask the Secretary of State to provide evidence-based research as part of the guidelines on what to teach? If there is no evidence-based research, how can the Secretary of State use it to inform teaching guidelines?
It is worth reminding ourselves, as the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, did, that my noble friend Lord Winston, who is now in its place, referred on Monday to,
“research on children who are being raised by people who are gay—either lesbian or male homosexual … There is now a large and incontrovertible body of research evidence—particularly from Professor Golombok of the University of Cambridge—which shows that on average such children do better than children who are born in the normal way of current marriage”.—[Official Report, 8/7/13; col. 28.]
The central point is that, at worst, there is no evidence-based research. At best, it does not support the noble Earl’s premise. Therefore, I have to do what I always do with what Tony Benn says. I have to nod and smile at the noble Earl and say that while I recognise and value his contribution, it is nonsense.
Lord Elton
My Lords, perhaps I might come to the noble Earl’s aid to some extent. I support his request for evidence-based research, and will add that the evidence presented should be tested. I am well aware of a body of research put forward to the Government during their initial inquiries before they drafted the Bill which was very seriously challenged by apparently well qualified people. The challenge was never answered or rebutted. I will happily write to the Minister about this because it should be looked into further. Where advocates of a cause commission or present research, it is as well to test it very carefully before taking it at face value.
Lord Singh of Wimbledon
I rise briefly to say that, in the next amendment, I will produce some evidence-based research that very much supports the concerns of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel.
Lord Pannick
I agree entirely with everything that has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Alli. But the concern of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, is about the implications of the measures in this Bill. I can see no reason whatever for thinking that it could be any less favourable to the interests of a child to be brought up by parents in a same-sex marriage than to those of a child being brought up by parents in a civil partnership. I would have thought that the stability and status of a marriage would be as beneficial to the child as it will be to the partners of same-sex marriage.
Baroness Brinton
Very briefly, I shall build on the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. We are often obsessed with a view of what is normal, as if in every classroom in the land all children come from a traditional, normal background. I know from the children whom I come across daily in schools that they know from their own experience that their friends come from single-parent families, whether through bereavement, divorce, separation, kinship carers, foster parents and, yes, children of civil partnerships. Some children know that they were born by IVF and have more than two parents. The father of one child I know married the woman who had first been his mother-in-law, and later she became his step-sister-in-law before becoming his wife. That is something to do with family values in the 21st century.
The point made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, about the value of a stable relationship is absolutely key—and that is what the research should be looking at. The research quoted from Cambridge already demonstrates that there is really strong evidence in that sort of same-sex relationship.
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, I am building again on the wise words of the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. There is no need to attach this amendment to this Bill. The Secretary of State is already bound to provide guidance to teachers under all circumstances, and will do so with regard to this Bill in the right and appropriate manner. This is not the way to do it. The amendment is not appropriate, as noble Lords can see if they read it themselves that the research is commissioned in this Bill.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, for moving this amendment and for taking the time and trouble to come to have a discussion with me, which I enjoyed very much. I echo what my noble friend Lady Barker said about his commitment to the interests of children and his dedication to that—and how he makes contributions to all our work in the House with that specific goal in mind.
In answering the debate, I wanted to make some specific points to assist all noble Lords and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, in particular. I wanted to emphasise that the Bill does not change the position for children in families of same-sex couples. The Government believe that the principles of long-term commitment and responsibility, which underpin marriage, are a good basis for providing children with the support and protection that they need throughout their childhood. As the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has said—and we very much agree with him—extending marriage to same-sex couples will mean that children of those couples will be able to benefit from the stability of a family founded on marriage in the way in which other children benefit. We think that that is a good thing.
The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and other noble Lords referred to comments that the noble Lord, Lord Winston, made in the debate on Monday on concerns about the ability of same-sex parents to bring up children. Those concerns are effectively not supported by the available evidence; the noble Lord made the point that there was no evidence to support the concern that some might have. Research has shown that there is no negative impact on children’s self-esteem, psychological well-being or social adjustment if they are brought up by same-sex parents. This includes lesbian couples—the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, raised the point about there being no father figure in the family.
It is an obvious point, but important none the less, that when gay couples decide to have a child or children the decision has to be a conscious one. Therefore, it is safe to assume that, having made that decision, they will be very conscious of the needs of that child and would address of all of them. No doubt two lesbian women would ensure there were male role models to play a part in the children’s lives. The noble Earl and I discussed this when we met privately. As I said in the previous debate, I am aware that some people respond to change in different ways. However, it is important to be clear that same-sex couples will approach their decision to become parents as seriously as any other couple; perhaps more so because they have had to make that decision very consciously. The Golombok report, Growing up in a Lesbian Family, which has been referred to, supports this view. There are other reports—all of which seem to have very interesting names—and I am sure if I start trying to say them I will mispronounce them so I will not. However, there are other studies coming out of the US.
The noble Earl referred to a report by Loren Marks in the USA and quoted quite extensively from it. The American Psychological Association took great interest in that paper. It issued a statement saying that, on the basis of a remarkably consistent body of research on lesbian and gay parents and their children, it and other health professional and scientific organisations had concluded that there is no scientific evidence that parenting effectiveness is related to sexual orientation. Lesbian and gay parents are as likely as heterosexual parents to provide supportive and healthy environments for their children.
I understand the noble Earl’s request for me to provide some analysis of the available research. I hope he will forgive me but I will be happy to write to him because I do not think that this debate justifies the use of resources to carry out the kind of analysis he has called for. I will ensure that letter is in the Library and I will copy it to my noble friend Lord Elton. I will obviously be interested to receive the letter my noble friend said he will send to me about another issue related to this debate. I hope the noble Earl feels able to withdraw his amendment.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister and to those who have spoken in this debate. I am mindful of the hour so I will be very brief. I still suggest it is very early days in this phenomenon—the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, referred to the difficulties at present with the small number of families in this position. I am very grateful for the care with which the Minister made her response and I look forward to receiving her letter. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Singh of Wimbledon
“Referendum provisions
(1) A referendum is to be held in England and Wales on the issue of same sex marriage.
(2) The referendum is to be held on 24 October 2013.
(3) If the Secretary of State is satisfied that it is impossible or impracticable for the referendum to be held on 24 October 2013, or that it cannot be conducted properly if held on that day, the Secretary of State may be order appoint a later day as the day on which the referendum is to be held.
(4) Any day appointed by order under subsection (3) must be before 1 November 2014.
(5) Where a day is appointed under subsection (4), the Secretary of State may by order make supplemental or consequential provision.
(6) The Secretary of State must by order make provisions for the conduct of the referendum.
(7) An order under this section may not be made unless a draft of the order has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.
(8) The question that is to appear on the ballot papers is—
(9) Those entitled to vote in the referendum are the persons who, on the date of the referendum, would be entitled to vote as electors at a parliamentary election in any constituency.”
Lord Singh of Wimbledon
My Lords, the need for a referendum is important for two reasons. First, as we all know, no attempt whatever was made to consult the electorate before the last election, or through Green or White Papers, on the proposed redefinition of marriage, which millions see as an essential building block of society. Respect for the electorate demands their explicit consent for this major social change.
Secondly, many of us hoped that the wider implications of this legislation would be discussed and genuine concerns listened to in the progress of the Bill in the other place and in your Lordships’ House. Sadly, this has not happened. What is concerning about the support for the Bill is the narrow crusading zeal with which genuine concerns are either ignored or brushed aside. Many of us concerned with making ours a fairer society for all welcomed the civil partnership legislation which gave legal rights and dignity to the gay community in our wonderfully diverse society. The legislation recognised both dignity of difference and equality of respect.
The Sikh gurus from whom I take my cue taught the importance of recognising and respecting difference and the right to differ, but they also taught that all of us, men and women, are equal members of one human family. I vainly hoped that some of this sort of thinking would become evident in this debate. Sadly, those pushing the Bill, perhaps because of a collective guilty conscience over past persecution of homosexuals, looked only to the supposed wishes of the gay community with no thought for the rights of others.
Three tactics have been used as spoiling measures to stifle genuine debate. First, past persecution of gays has been used to demand unreasonable reparation from the wider community by appropriating, distorting and diluting the accepted meaning of marriage without consideration of the consequences for family relationships and the care and nurture of children.
Secondly, we have seen a deliberate misuse of language to suggest that sameness and equality—I mean equality of opportunity and equality of respect—are one and the same thing, and that to recognise and respect genuine difference amounts to prejudice and notions of superiority. The absurdity of this argument is self-evident. Cricket and football are different sports but this does not mean or imply that one is superior to the other, yet in seeking to blur difference in gay and heterosexual relationships in Monday’s debate, the learned noble Lord, Lord Lester, put forward this same spurious argument. He said:
“The attempt to define same-sex marriage differently from opposite-sex marriage while claiming that they are somehow equal would inevitably be seen by ordinary men and women in the street—and by me, as a not very ordinary man in the street, I suppose—as attempting to give the traditional view of marriage a superior status”.—[Official Report, 8/7/13; col. 16.]
I believe that the man in the street is far more discerning and would resent being wrongly patronised in this way.
Thirdly, as we have heard this evening, statistics have been used to confuse debate. A small survey—the Cambridge survey—has again been quoted. It is said to have found that some children do better with gay parents. Perhaps that is so, but why ignore a much larger and more extensive survey of 3,000 people conducted by the University of Texas over a number of years on a random population which included interviews with children who had grown to become adult? It showed that the children who flourish best, measured in categories such as education, employment status, depression, crime, welfare dependency and drug misuse, are those who spend their entire childhood with their biological mother and father. All other family arrangements did significantly less well. The worst outcomes were in children brought up by their mother in a lesbian relationship. Are we doing our children any favours if we simply refuse to look at such studies?
Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, I have not spoken before this evening, mainly because I have very much wanted to listen to what other people had to say. However, I really feel rather annoyed about this amendment. Why on this particular Bill? In the past year or so, we have sat through legislation from this Government on an enormous range of issues: welfare, employment law, foreign policy intervention and so on. Has there been any pressure for a referendum on these issues? No, there has not. However, we now have the opportunity, at long last, of producing legislation to try to and put right the discrimination which gays and lesbians have suffered for many years. We are aiming to do that, and we are doing it. We have voted in favour of the Bill, in this House and in the other place, with an overwhelming majority. The law is now absolutely clear: it says that the marriage of same-sex couples is lawful—I repeat, is lawful. Yet this amendment suggests that a referendum be held on 24 October 2013 and that there should be a statement on the ballot paper which says:
“At present, the law in England and Wales defines marriage as the union of a man and a woman. Should the law be changed”,
et cetera. By the time we reach October, the law will quite clearly not be the same as indicated in this proposed new clause. It will have changed because we will have voted to change the law to make the marriage of same-sex couples lawful.
I listened with amazement as the noble Lord who moved the amendment suggested that somehow or other that was not popular. In my view, this legislation is very popular, particularly with younger people. Perhaps much older people have some doubts about it but, generally speaking, younger people are all in favour of it. I was pleased that after the Second Reading debate, when I looked at my computer, I had messages from all sorts of people, including younger people, saying, “Well done, well done”, about my speech. We do not need a referendum. We should throw this amendment out. It is not worthy at all. Why should it be in the Bill? The amendment is entirely discriminatory, and I urge your Lordships to oppose it.
Lord Fowler
My Lords, I note, with respect, that the noble Lord who introduced the amendment says that the arguments were not considered in the Commons. What I think he actually means is that they were considered; it is just that he does not agree with the conclusion that both Houses came to. That tends to happen in a democracy. We make our decisions on the basis of the arguments. I do not think that one can argue for a referendum on the basis that one disagrees with a decision. There is not a great deal of difference, frankly, between what we are debating now and what we debated in Committee.
I leave aside the wording of the question that would be put, which seems to say, “The present law is excellent, or are you one of that band of eccentrics who thinks that it should be changed?”. I am not sure that the Electoral Reform Society would totally agree with such a question being asked in a referendum. However, my objection is much broader than that.
I am not opposed to referenda on constitutional issues. My Government made a mistake back in 1972; we should have had a referendum before we went into the Common Market. I am glad that Mr Cameron is promising a referendum after his negotiations on Europe and before the matter comes to the Commons after the next election. What I cannot support is holding a referendum after a Bill has gone through both Houses of Parliament and after our extensive discussions in both Houses. The Bill has been approved by massive majorities. There is no question about that. It is not on the margins; there have been massive majorities for the Bill. That is particularly the case for Members of Parliament because it is they who, at the next election, have to answer to their constituents. That is what parliamentary democracy is about.
You cannot have a situation whereby legislation in Parliament goes through the Commons and the Lords and then we have a referendum on it. It makes complete nonsense of the role of Parliament and of parliamentary democracy. One of my underlying concerns about some of the opposition to this legislation is that we are going against our fundamental beliefs in parliamentary democracy and the role of this House. This House, at this stage, should not be considering an amendment of this kind. Its only purpose can be to wreck the Bill as a last chance to ditch it, and we should not have any part in it. Therefore, with respect to the noble Lord, to whom I have listened previously, and again now, I am totally unconvinced by his argument.
Lord Waddington
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Fowler is making rather a meal of it. I can think of only one justification for having a referendum, and that is to allow the Prime Minister to get off the hook on which he has impaled himself by bringing forward this Bill in the first place. Everybody knows that the Bill came forward to Parliament in a most disreputable fashion. We have gone over this many times, so I will say it in a sentence or two. Three days before the election, the Prime Minister said that he had no plans to bring forward such a Bill; there was no reference to it in any party manifesto; there was nothing about it in the coalition agreement; and there was no proper consultation. The result is that UKIP is having a field day—
Lord Fowler
My noble friend accuses me of making a meal of it, but he is making a massive feast of the whole thing. Surely, every argument he has just produced has been debated and debated again, at Second Reading in both the Commons and the Lords.
Lord Waddington
The trouble is that my noble friend has not listened to the end of my argument, which is that as a result of the Prime Minister’s behaviour, UKIP has been gleaning Tory votes throughout the country. If we do not do anything about it, at the next general election UKIP will no doubt be making hay as a result. I suggest to my noble friend that the only real justification for having a referendum is to help the Prime Minister by removing the whole issue from the public arena well before the next general election.
Lord Carlile of Berriew
My Lords, listening to the little exchange that has taken place in the past few minutes between two distinguished noble friends who are members of the Conservative Party led me to think about whether an alliance between UKIP and the Tory party—which, of course, has been mooted—might be regarded as a same-sex marriage.
Leaving aside that little bit of private grief in the Conservative Party, I agree with every word that has been uttered by my noble friend Lord Fowler and will not repeat it because I could not say it as well as he. Like many people in this country, I have great admiration for the noble Lord, Lord Singh. We hear him on the public radio from time to time, and he utters very wise words—mostly. However, I say to the noble Lord that, regrettably, on this occasion he has let us, and himself, down. I invite him to reflect upon whether the proposed amendment is a proper use of the debating procedure of your Lordships’ House; what he said sounded to me awfully like a Second Reading speech.
In order to ascertain whether that would be a justified comment, I spent some little time looking at the noble Lord’s biography and bibliography to see what other issues that he has suggested would be suitable for a referendum because they have an ethical or moral component. There are none: this is special pleading. I urge your Lordships to reject the amendment on that simple basis.
Lord Pannick
My Lords, perhaps I may remind noble Lords that the Constitution Committee, of which I was then a member, recently produced a report on referendums. We said that there are significant drawbacks to the use of referendums, essentially for the reasons given by the noble Lord, Lord Fowler. Our advice to the House was that they should be confined to fundamental constitutional issues. This is not a fundamental constitutional issue. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, that helping out the Prime Minister, if he needs help to get off any hook, is not a fundamental constitutional issue.
Lord Alli
My Lords, I, too, do not want to help the Prime Minister, but let me say that I am most grateful for the Prime Minister’s help. He has shown huge personal courage in bringing forward this Bill, for which many of us would want to pay tribute to him.
Perhaps I may say this to the noble Lord, Lord Singh: a December 2012 MORI poll showed that 73% of people agree that gay people should be allowed to marry. On 5 February, at Second Reading in the House of Commons, it was 400 to 175 on a free vote. On 21 May, at Third Reading in the House of Commons, it was 366 to 161 on a free vote. On 4 June, at Second Reading in the House of Lords, it was 390 to 148 on a free vote. On 8 July, the first day of the Report stage in the House of Lords, the votes were 344 to 119 on Amendment 1, followed by votes of 278 to 103, 163 to 32 and 84 to 15. The noble Lord seeks to suggest that this is undemocratic and unconstitutional, but in doing so I fear that he is treading on very dangerous ground. He risks insulting the integrity of both Houses of this Parliament.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
Not, my Lords, of insulting the people, who have never had a chance to speak on this and whose views are rather uncertain. The noble Lord, Lord Alli, has set out his litany of votes and I cannot gainsay that in any way, but I can certainly gainsay him on the polls which have been taken. If he is so confident about the view of public opinion, he should have no hesitation about going forward and agreeing to this referendum. Indeed, it is something which was discussed last Friday in the other place. The Foreign Secretary was really quite lyrical about referenda. Perhaps I may remind him of what he said:
“That is why every Member of the House who is a true democrat can and should unite behind the Bill”—
this was a referendum Bill on the EU—
“It is about letting the people decide … Ultimately, it would be up to the voters to decide, and that is the essence of democracy”.—[Official Report, Commons, 5/7/13; col. 1191.]
Certainly there is no constitutional objection to referenda on the part of the Government. I concede that referenda have mostly been held on constitutional issues, although there are examples in our history of referenda on issues that were manifestly not constitutional. The first referendum that I was aware of was in relation to the opening of public houses in Wales. Even those who want to stretch their imagination could hardly suggest that the opening of public houses in Wales is a referendum issue.
I follow the noble Lord, Lord Singh, and I adopt what he has said. This was an amendment which I broadly put forward myself in Committee. The only difference is that, having listened to the objections then, such as that it was just a delaying device and 2015 would be too late, the noble Lord has brought the date forward to 2013. However, I am not convinced that the wording is as it should be. As was said in Committee, it should probably be left to the Electoral Commission, which is the normal pattern. But I think that the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, did a great disservice to the amendment which has been put forward by distorting it in the way that he did, as if the current position is perfect and only some zealots wish to alter it: do you agree with the zealots or not? I think that this wording is fairly reasonable, and the only reason I object to it is that I think that it should come from the Electoral Commission and not be on the face of the Bill.
The basic argument for having a referendum is the fact that the Government have no mandate for this—certainly no mandate from the people. The commitment was not included in the 2010 Conservative, Liberal or Labour manifestos. The subsidiary argument is the speed of the passage of this Bill. Not only was it not mentioned in the manifestos, not only did a number of the relevant pressure groups not come to this view in respect of gay marriage until a year or two ago, but there has been an unholy haste about this Bill which is difficult to understand. It is rather as if there has been a mass conversion equivalent to that of, say, an African tribal leader who mass converts many of the members of his tribe.
Noble Lords have suggested that there have been occasions in the past when legislative changes have been made without a mandate. That is true, of course, but none has been as fundamental as that set out in the Bill before us today. Although laws defining marriage have changed incrementally over the years—the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, gave a whole series of those—nothing has been as fundamental as this one: changing the basic definition of marriage. I suppose that a case could be made for an exception to the electoral mandate principle if it were apparent by other means that there was consensus in public opinion.
I concede that there have been majorities in both Houses, but there is no clear consensus in public opinion. It depends very much on the question that has been asked. Opinion polls have been fairly evenly divided. Some have suggested that there is a majority against, some that there is a majority in favour. If further proof of the absence of consensus were needed, however, let me quote from the Government’s own analysis of their consultation process:
“Overall, views were divided. Of the 228,000 responses to the consultation, 53% agreed that same-sex couples should be able to have a civil marriage ceremony and 46% disagreed ... However, these figures do not take account of those petitions we received, which were universally opposed”.
Moreover, the need for a referendum set out in my speech in Committee was compounded by other failures of due process. I shall not repeat what I said in Committee regarding the failures of due process during the passage of the Bill. I have made the point that the Government are not against referenda in principle. One argument advanced in our earlier debate was that it would not be appropriate to have a referendum when the Bill was passed with such a clear majority in another place. That, however, as the noble Lord, Lord Singh, has properly pointed out, misses the point. No one questions the majorities, the facts are there. If the referendum is opposed in order to make good the lack of any mandate, the votes of MPs on this issue are not relevant because there was no electoral mandate at the time for an issue which is manifestly a fundamental one.
Other noble Lords objected to the idea of having a referendum simply because they considered the redefinition promoted by this Bill to be a self-evidently good thing and recoiled at the idea that it should be subject to a vote. If it was, of course, such a manifestly good thing, why have so many colleagues come to this realisation so speedily and at such a late stage? Had this vote been taken three years ago, it would not have had those majorities—perhaps not even one or two years ago, so it is not such a manifestly good thing.
Another argument advanced by the Minister, and advanced earlier in this evening’s debate, was that referenda should be preserved for constitutional questions. Apart from the fact that Parliament is completely free to apply referenda whenever it sees fit, the key point is that the marriage Bill raises important constitutional questions. I refer to the implications for the establishment of the Church of England, as explained by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester in his important Second Reading speech. Moreover, Aidan O’Neill QC in his legal opinion on the Bill suggests that it risks partial disestablishment. The Government have made this a constitutional question by disregarding due process and by conducting a consultation which, in my judgment, was a bogus consultation that ignored many of the questions, because the majority were, in fact, against it.
To conclude, it is increasingly common to hear politicians express their profound concerns about the disconnect between political institutions and their passionate commitment to reaching out and listening to the people. This is an opportunity to do so. My judgment is that there is profound discontent and not just among the older generations on this issue.
I am still waiting to hear from the Minister why there is such unprecedented haste in pushing through this Bill. There must be some good reason, or some reason behind the reason, which I would like to hear. We should not seek to kid ourselves that we can proceed on this basis and expect anything other than unhappy consequences. Rather than this being a law that was developed in a proper way and that rests on a constitutionally appropriate foundation, everyone knows that it was pushed through without proper regard for constitutional convention. There was certainly no mandate and there has certainly been substantial haste, as yet unexplained.
To date, the Government have not provided any compelling reason for not supporting a referendum. If they believe that the tide of history over the past year or two since their damascene conversion is on their side and they have no constitutional objection to it—I cite the two referenda in general and the rather lyrical references to referenda in the speech of the right honourable Foreign Secretary last Friday—they should have no hesitation in providing for a referendum so that the people can decide on this issue.
Lord Martin of Springburn
My Lords, I have always looked forward to the wisdom of the noble Lord and of the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, and it is nice to see them disagree with one another and disagree so well. It is often the case that the Minister gets to the Dispatch Box and says, “Well, this amendment is not suitable but perhaps we can get something else”. I think that there should be some consultation with the people. For everyone arguing that this is a democratic process, which should therefore be good enough for the people, we should remember the problems that this generation and generations before us have had. In Northern Ireland, we had a Government who kept saying, “The majority rule and forget about the minority or about consulting with the people. We are the ones who will push through the legislation and that will be the end of it”.
I just point to several such matters. The noble Lord, Lord Fowler, will recall that the Scottish people were the first in the British Isles to get the poll tax. That was because of a democratic decision in the other place, even though some MPs, including me, said at the time, “You’re creating a rod for your own back”. However, it was not until the poll tax came to the rest of the United Kingdom that people readily acknowledged that we were wrong. The argument that it goes through both Houses and that is the end of it and people have to accept it, is nonsense. We could be creating very serious problems. Noble Lords should bear in mind that it is normally the case that the Opposition question the Government, if that is what they want to do. However, the Opposition are supporting, not questioning, the Government on this legislation. That is where I feel that there should be some consultation.
Noble Lords will recall that the last time that the Labour Party and the Conservative Party got together, it was when the Conservative Party supported the then Labour Government in going into Iraq and seeking to remove Saddam Hussein. At the time, the Liberals said that there was a feeling out there in the country that this was wrong. Ever since then, we have been asking ourselves whether or not it was the right thing to do. I am on my feet not because there needs to be a referendum but because we need to find some way of consulting the people about the difficulties that we have got here. We are not passing a complete piece of marriage legislation. The Government have been shrewd enough to exclude the Church of England and the Catholic Church and to say, “We are not forcing you to do this”. Therefore we are not getting a piece of marriage legislation in the normal sense of the word. Of course the dates are down here in the amendment, but amendments can be changed or replaced by something more suitable to the Government and ultimately to the House. Let us find a way of consulting the people about what we are putting through both Houses.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, I rise briefly to thank my noble friend for alluding to the research that he did and for his support on my previous amendment. I will look with great interest at the research to which he refers. He also gives me the opportunity to reflect on the Minister’s reply with regard to research in this area. I perhaps should have pointed out that the Loren Marks research was initially a criticism of a conclusion produced by the American Psychological Association two or three years previously. She wrote that particular paper from a critical point of view on its conclusion that all the research so far pointed to there being no problems with same-sex parenting. That was why she wrote that paper. It is hardly surprising, therefore, that the American Psychological Association should come back and be very critical of her research, so I would not take the association’s damning criticism too much to heart. I think that Loren Marks is well worth reading and listening to.
I offer my sincerest congratulations to my noble friend on bringing forward this amendment at this late point in the Bill. From a man of faith representing one of the great religions, it is absolutely right that we should be hearing a very conservative point of view regarding the family. It is very important that there are these strong, conservative voices, deeply steeped in religion, to stand up against us modern people, who are much less rooted in tradition and more flexible. It is very important that people such as him stand up on these occasions and put a strongly conservative point of view, even at this late stage in the Bill. I wish that he had been here when we were discussing the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act and that we had heard his comments then on the removal of the assumption that it is in the best interests of children for fathers to be involved in their lives. Again, I recall the Good Childhood Inquiry report, produced by the Children’s Society and the Church of England a few years ago. It highlighted that, with increased rights and freedom of choice for adults in the 20th century, which so many of us welcome, the downside for children has often been that parents’ greater choice has meant that many more children grow up with their father no longer in their family. I think it is very helpful to have my noble friend’s voice here.
Finally, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, for her very kind comments. I had forgotten that she made her maiden speech in my first debate, and I appreciated what she said.
Lord Norton of Louth
My Lords, perhaps I may deal briefly with this in bullet form. The point that has just been made about parenting is totally irrelevant to what this Bill seeks to achieve, and it is certainly irrelevant in terms of the amendment before us, to which the noble Lord, Lord Singh, did not really speak. When he does, I think we would be interested to hear why, under subsection (9), on those who would vote in the referendum, he would exclude Members of your Lordships’ House.
We keep hearing about public opinion as if somehow it is divided—no, it is not. Every poll that has put the question in a neutral way has produced a very clear result. What is remarkable about opinion is not that it is divided but how consistent it has been. As Lewis Baston has written in the latest issue of Total Politics:
“A typical result for a neutrally worded question is support somewhere in the low- to mid-50 per cent range and opposition in the mid-30 per cent range”,
before concluding:
“While there may be some legislative twists and turns in the House of Lords, the battle for public opinion has been won by supporters of SSM”.
With that consistency, there is really no need to consult. The position is quite clear.
In terms of holding a referendum anyway, as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, pointed out, at the end of the previous Parliament the Constitution Committee produced a very thorough report on referendums, weighing the arguments for and against, and concluded that if they were going to be held, they should be not only on constitutional issues but fundamental constitutional issues. Not only is this not really a constitutional issue; it certainly does not qualify as a fundamental constitutional matter.
It is essentially a matter of social policy. Parliament has legislated on significant social policy before. This would be on a par with abortion and divorce, which, as I recall, were not manifesto commitments and not issues on which anybody was really suggesting that there should be referendums. So if we are going to start saying that we should have referendums on social issues, there are wider implications. We would need to consider it very thoroughly before we went down that route. There is absolutely no merit in the amendment before us and I hope that we do not pursue it.
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, you have to hand it to the people who do not like this Bill. They really do not like this Bill and they are fighting it right to the very end, and that is what this is about. They are perfectly within their rights to do that, and I particularly enjoyed the heartfelt plea of the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, in this debate.
I am not going to repeat all the arguments that have been made. I simply refer your Lordships to the noble Lords, Lord Fowler, Lord Pannick and Lord Norton, my noble friend Lord Alli and my other noble friends who have spoken in this debate. They are absolutely right.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Martin, that actually the votes were free votes. This was not a question of the Government and the Labour Opposition. They were free votes. There were Members on all sides—
Baroness O'Loan
I would just like to ask the noble Baroness whether the Labour Party votes on Monday were all free votes. There was an understanding that some of them were whipped.
Baroness Thornton
The noble Baroness knows very well the answer to that question. All the votes about the principle of this Bill were free votes in both Houses. We in the Labour Party made it completely clear that we would whip on two issues only, which were issues of public policy to do with teachers and registrars, and that is what we did. We have been completely clear, open and honest about what we were going to do.
As the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, said, the fundamental issue here and particularly in the Commons—the democratic House—is that all those MPs have to go back and face their constituents about this issue. They will have to face them every week about this issue. So they would not have voted on a free vote for this Bill had they not felt it was the right thing to do. That is exactly what they should do.
Frankly, the idea that noble Lords in this House are somehow pushovers or sheep to be led through the Division Lobbies is completely absurd, as this debate shows. If I might repeat what I said in Committee, this amendment is a nonsense and the House needs to reject it.
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)
My Lords, Amendments 96 and 134 seek to provide in the Bill for a referendum on marriage of same-sex couples, to be held on or after 24 October 2013. I recognise that the date has been brought forward somewhat from the amendment that we discussed in Committee; otherwise, it is very nearly identical to that amendment, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Swansea, supported by my noble friend Lord Cormack and the noble Lord, Lord Singh.
It will come as no surprise to the House that the Government are unable to accept these amendments. We do not believe it is a sensible course of action, nor is it required. I listened carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Singh, said in moving his amendment, and I recognise his strength of feeling on this issue. As he knows, he and I do not agree on the principle of the Bill. Nevertheless, I profoundly respect not only his view but the depth of feeling with which he holds it.
There are one or two points that I wish to take up on this matter. There was one practical matter to start with. The noble Lord almost suggested that it was a conspiracy that the Government could put my noble friend Lady Stowell’s letter into the Library, but somehow his could not be. That is just the way the House operates. However, what I can say is that the Government can place documents in the House Library and if the noble Lord would like me to, I am happy to place a copy of his reply to my noble friend Lady Stowell in the Library, and would be pleased to do so if he feels it would be helpful to the debate.
Lord Singh of Wimbledon
I was not saying that it was conspiracy. It was my ignorance about the proceedings and the way the House operates. I was happy that there was a way of debating something, and then I found a block. You cannot do that.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I know that the noble Lord did not say it was a conspiracy. I think that he used the phrase that it was blocking off debate and almost suggested that it was done deliberately. It was not. As he indicated just now, these are the rules of the place, but if he wishes a copy of his reply to be put into the Library, we will certainly arrange for the Government to do that. The noble Lord is nodding assent to that proposition.
The letter which my noble friend Lady Stowell sent to the noble Lord relates to issues about consultation. She noted, for example, that the British Sikh Consultative Forum issued a formal submission to the consultation on equal marriage and that government officials met representatives from the Sikh Council UK as recently as 4 April this year. They held pre-consultation meetings with the Sikh forum in December 2011 and held another meeting during the consultation period with the interfaith community in May 2012, which involved representatives from the Sikh faith.
Lord Singh of Wimbledon
What is the meaning of consultation when you talk about a course previously decided on? That, in my view, is not consultation. My other point is that I have spoken to all those groups that have been mentioned. They were totally opposed to the legislation, but that is not reflected.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, there will always be situations where there are disagreements. Nevertheless, it has been the case that efforts were made to engage with not just the Sikh community but with other communities. It is a fundamental part of the Bill that the Government readily recognise—indeed the official Opposition readily recognise too—that there are religious organisations and faith communities which do not believe in same-sex marriage. That is why an important part of the architecture of this Bill is to give protection to these faiths. That is an important part that has come out of the discussions and the process that have brought us to where we are today with this Bill.
It was also suggested that the Government had somehow been impervious to argument. It is worth reminding the House that, as part of the whole process, the Government listened to what the Church in Wales said and produced an opt-in procedure. There has been additional protection for chaplains employed as members of staff. We added ecclesiastical law to the measures not affected by the Bill. We have clarified that marriages of same-sex couples are void when the couple are aware that their religion has not opted in. We have ensured that the consent of a governing authority to opt in to same-sex marriage does not automatically fall if the governing authority changes.
Significantly, on Report on Monday—and the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, commended the Government for this—we introduced an amendment which gave extended meaning to the word “compelled”. We also brought forward an amendment to change the Public Order Act to clarify that criticism of same-sex marriage is not a hate crime. On other issues, for example on humanist weddings, the Government have been prepared to listen. There were amendments earlier today on fast-track procedure for gender recognition, and a technical, though important, amendment to reflect the absence of a legislative consent Motion from Northern Ireland for overseas marriages in consulates or Armed Forces bases. On a number of these issues the Government have listened and made appropriate amendments to the Bill.
It has also been said that the use of referendums in the United Kingdom remains very much the exception in our constitution. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth, and indeed myself, were members of your Lordships’ House’s Constitution Committee when it looked at the issue of referendums. I do not think that I am betraying any secrets—it comes through in the report—that we thought referendums should be the exception. However, the genie was out of the bottle and therefore if referendums were going to be used the report clearly stated that they should be on matters of substantial constitutional significance. It gave some examples: to abolish the Monarchy; to leave the European Union—the subject of the debate in the House of Commons last Friday; for any of the nations of the United Kingdom to secede from the UK; to change the electoral system for the House of Commons; and to change the UK’s system of currency. While I recognise that what we have been debating in your Lordships’ House on this Bill is a matter of profound social policy, I do not think that by any stretch of the imagination it could be described as a matter of substantial constitutional significance. We acknowledge that what we are doing is a significant change to marriage law, and I recognise that many are uneasy about the proposals, but I say again that this is not a significant constitutional matter.
Lord Martin of Springburn
I make the point that, at the time, both the noble and learned Lord and I would have said to Conservative Ministers, “Please consult with the people”. They would have found that the people clearly said, “No way do we want this”. They would then not have got into the difficulties they did when it got to the rest of the United Kingdom.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
The point is that under our constitutional, democratic architecture, Members of Parliament make their judgments, cast their votes and then answer to the electorate. That is the appropriate way in which we go about these matters.
The Prime Minister was mentioned. Anyone who has heard the Prime Minister talk on this issue knows that he does so from real conviction. It is a great credit to the Prime Minister that he has had the courage to give leadership on this issue and that this Bill has got to where it is today.
Support has also been reflected in recent opinion polls. My noble friend Lord Norton of Louth referred to that. I remind your Lordships of a House of Commons Library research paper on this Bill. Here is a summary of polls on same-sex marriages offering a two-way choice: October 2011, ComRes—51% support; 7 March 2012, ICM—admittedly not a majority but 45%; May 2012, YouGov in the Sunday Times—51%; December 2012, YouGov—55%; December 2012, Survation—60%; December 2012, ICM—62%; February 2013, YouGov in the Sunday Times—55%; 5 February 2013, YouGov in the Sun—54%; 19 May 2013, YouGov—55%.
However, I make the point that numbers are not everything. This Bill is about putting right a wrong. We believe in the importance of the institution of marriage. We wish to ensure that gay and lesbian couples can be part of it in the same way as opposite-sex couples. We want to get on with that, and therefore I ask the House to reject this amendment.
Lord Singh of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, for the graciousness of his response. I also thank noble Lords who spoke in favour of this amendment: the noble Lords, Lord Anderson and Lord Waddington, and my noble friends Lord Martin and Lord Listowel. They put the position perfectly, although I was a little concerned to be called a “conservative”. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Fowler. He did not respond to any of the specific concerns raised, but in many ways the manner of his response exemplified the concerns that I raised earlier; my thanks again to him. It is late, I sense the mood of the House, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“(ab) after the definition of “ecclesiastical district” insert—““England and Wales legislation” has the same meaning as in the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013;”.”
“(aa) the first regulations under section 9(1);(ab) the first regulations under section 9(2);”
“( ) an order under section (Marriage according to the usages of belief organisations);”
“(d) an order under paragraph 2 of Schedule 2;(e) an order under paragraph 27 of Schedule 4.”
“(f) an order under paragraph 9(4) of Schedule 6.”
“(za) regulations under section 9(1) (except for the first such regulations);(zb) regulations under section 9(2) (except for the first such regulations);”
Baroness Northover
“(4A) The provision that the Secretary of State may make in any relevant instrument includes provision enabling the Registrar General to make regulations by statutory instrument (with or without the consent of a minister of the Crown).
(4B) But the Secretary of State—
(a) may not make enabling provision which gives the Registrar General power to require a fee to be paid or power to set the amount of a fee; and(b) may not make other enabling provision unless the Secretary of State is satisfied that the provision is necessary in connection with administrative matters relating to functions of the Registrar General or functions of superintendent registrars or registrars.(4C) Regulations made by the Registrar General under any enabling provision are subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.
(4D) But that is subject to any provision in a relevant instrument about the kind of Parliamentary scrutiny, if any, to which the regulations are to be subject.
(4E) In subsections (4A) to (4D)—
“enabling provision” means provision made under subsection (4A) enabling the Registrar General to make regulations;
“relevant instrument” means—
(a) regulations under section 9(1) or (2), or(b) an order under section (Marriage according to the usages of belief organisations)(4).”
Baroness Northover
My Lords, Amendment 123A replaces government Amendment 123, which, as I explained to the House on Monday, the Government were considering withdrawing and have just done so.
To give a little background, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee reported on this Bill in its fourth report of the Session. We are most grateful to the committee for its comments and recommendations, to which we responded in a series of amendments that the House debated on Monday. One of the recommendations of the committee was that regulations made under Clause 9, which deals with the conversion of civil partnerships, should be made by the Secretary of State rather than the Registrar-General and should be subject to the affirmative procedure on first use because it was not clear that all such provisions would be purely administrative in nature.
We were happy to accede to this recommendation but were also conscious that, in the future, the Registrar-General may need to update her administrative procedures. To require regulations to be made by the Secretary of State regarding such matters would be overly bureaucratic and break with the convention that the Registrar-General makes regulations relating to her functions that are purely administrative. For example, the Registrar-General already makes regulations, without any parliamentary procedure, prescribing the detail of marriage and civil partnership registration, the duties of those responsible for registration and the forms to be used.
We therefore proposed through Amendment 123, which has now been withdrawn, that the Secretary of State or the Lord Chancellor could make enabling provision for the Registrar-General to make regulations relating to administrative matters. We continue to believe that such sub-delegation is the appropriate way of dealing with these administrative details. However, as the chairman of the committee, my noble friend Lady Thomas of Winchester, helpfully highlighted to us before Monday’s debate, the amendment had been drafted in a way that would allow the Secretary of State or the Lord Chancellor to sub-delegate in respect of any of their order-making or regulation-making powers in the Bill.
While it was never the Government’s intention to use the proposed power in such a far-reaching way, and the use of the power was limited in any event only to where it was in connection with administrative matters relating to functions of the Registrar-General, superintendent registrars or registrars, we accept that it would not have been appropriate to move the amendment with such concerns outstanding. That is why we have tabled Amendment 123A, which is more restrictive as to the circumstances in which the Secretary of State may sub-delegate regulation-making powers to the Registrar-General. Its effect is that there are just two provisions where the Secretary of State can now exercise such a power.
The amendment states explicitly that sub-delegation may occur only where the Secretary of State considers that it is necessary in connection with the administrative functions of the Registrar-General, superintendent registrars and registrars under Clause 9, concerning conversion of civil partnerships to marriages, and Amendment 90, concerning marriage by belief organisations—if the Government in future decide to allow such marriage. We consider that the sub-delegation of regulation-making powers to the Registrar-General is necessary and appropriate in these two contexts, but it must be subject to clear restrictions. In particular, there is no power for the Secretary of State to sub-delegate provision as to fees.
Amendment 123A also makes it clear that the default position is that any delegated regulations made by the Registrar-General would attract the negative procedure, unless varied by the Secretary of State in the event that she felt that this was justified because of the nature of the particular regulations. I can assure noble Lords that any regulations of the Secretary of State’s sub-delegating powers to the Registrar-General will be put before Parliament for scrutiny.
The chairman of the committee has written today to confirm that the committee is content with the revised amendment; I am pleased about that. I hope that noble Lords will agree that this amendment is a measured and appropriate response to the committee’s concerns, which delivers our policy intention while ensuring that there can be no inappropriate use of the powers. It is extremely nice to end Report on what I hope is a constructive and consensual basis; I note that many noble Lords left the Chamber as I started. I commend Amendment 123A to the House.
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that very clear exposition of this very sensible amendment. I am pleased to say that we will, of course, support it.
““superintendent registrar” means a superintendent registrar of births, deaths and marriages.”
“(5A) Subsection (5) is subject to subsections (6) to (8).”
“(7) The repeal of the Foreign Marriage Act 1892 made by section 13(2) does not extend to Northern Ireland.”
“(8) Any amendment made by Part 2 of Schedule 5 does not extend to Northern Ireland.”