Postal Services in Scotland after 2014

Mike Weir Excerpts

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mr Davidson]

Of course we should stand together. Those of us who oppose the privatisation of Royal Mail should make our opposition clear and vote together against what is being put forward, to my astonishment, by the Liberals. We would normally expect an alliance in Scotland between the Labour party, the nationalists, the Greens and the Liberals against a Conservative Government who are proposing privatisation, but we are not in that position.

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting case, but he must know that the SNP has stood against, and continues to stand against, the privatisation of Royal Mail, whether it comes before or after independence.

[Mr Davidson]

Yes, I am aware of that. That is why I am saying that I can see no reason why the hon. Gentleman’s party, the Labour party and indeed the Greens, who I understand also oppose privatisation, should not be campaigning jointly against the forces of darkness, as represented undoubtedly by the Conservatives. What surprises me is the way in which the Liberals seem to be aligning themselves with the forces of darkness on privatising the Post Office. A year ago, two years ago or three, four, five years ago, who would have expected that the Liberals would be the people proposing the privatisation of the Post Office in the House this afternoon? That is a disgrace. [Interruption.] If my chuntering friends from the SNP are willing to campaign with us, we will campaign across Scotland.

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[Mr Davidson]

I thank the Minister for that clarification. I am sorry, but like many of us, I remember the days when Royal Mail and the Post Office were part of the same organisation. I sometimes have a tendency to use the names interchangeably. I excuse her from any suggestion that she is in favour of privatising the Post Office. However, she does stand charged of wanting to privatise Royal Mail. If she wants to correct that, I would be more than happy to give way to her again. [Interruption.] All right, there is silence.

[Mr Weir]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way once again. I remind him that we opposed privatisation when Labour tried to privatise Royal Mail, and we continue to oppose it now. In fact, I attended the Backbench Business Committee yesterday with his colleague, the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark), to ensure that we get a debate on privatisation as soon as we come back after the summer recess, before this pernicious Bill goes through.

[Mr Davidson]

I am not suggesting, nor have I suggested at any point, that the SNP supports privatisation. Despite our disagreement on those issues on which the SNP is wrong, we can work together to oppose the privatisation of the Post Office. I see no difficulty on that whatsoever. It is entirely possible to find ourselves in strong disagreement with people on some issues yet work together with them on others. I extend the clenched fist of friendship—[Laughter.] I extend the hand of friendship so that we are able to work together against the Liberal proposal to privatise the Post Office.

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[Mr Davidson]

Absolutely. Royal Mail provides a service, particularly throughout the highlands and islands and the most scattered rural communities in Scotland, in a way that the private sector does not. It is noticeable that when the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs investigated the provision of postal services to rural communities, which was quite some time ago—when the SNP was still on the Committee, before it took the huff and walked off—it was clear that the private sector was not delivering to those rural communities; it was refusing to deliver to a variety of postcodes where the costs were much higher than elsewhere. Royal Mail was the only one that would deliver to those communities at the standard and universal price, and it is the cross-subsidy system that makes that viable.

Those who would break Scotland away from the rest of the United Kingdom have an obligation, as we approach the referendum, to spell out exactly how much they anticipate would be required from Scottish taxpayers to meet the costs of the universal service obligation. They cannot say that they want European or continental standards of service while at the same time being unwilling to pay for them because they want to reduce taxation levels, particularly on business. That simply does not add up. People in Scotland deserve to know the truth.

I can remember when the arc of prosperity was being floated a while ago. That was in the days when the SNP was actually against being in NATO. But we have had two changes since then, if I remember correctly: the first was that membership would be automatic, and now Keith Brown has conceded that it would not be automatic. Things change.

None the less, the Scandinavians were held out as an example to Scotland. Are hon. Members aware that in Norway, a first-class stamp costs the equivalent of 103.9p? That is the Scandinavian model. Is that what Scotland will have after separation? I think that we deserve to be told. What will the price of first-class stamps be in a separate Scotland? Will posting mail to other parts of the United Kingdom cost the same as at the moment? It is far more expensive to post mail from Northern Ireland to the Irish Republic than to other parts of the United Kingdom. In those circumstances, the Irish Republic is a foreign country, as Scotland will be to the rest of the United Kingdom.

[Mr Weir]

For completeness, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will point out that sending mail from the Republic of Ireland to Northern Ireland costs the same as sending it within the Republic of Ireland.

[Mr Davidson]

That is a choice that the Irish made, but the cost of sending mail from Northern Ireland to the Republic is different. There is no guarantee at the moment about what will happen. Are SNP Members saying that they will guarantee that the cost of sending mail from any part of Scotland to any part of the United Kingdom after separation will be the same as sending it within the United Kingdom? If so, that must be costed. We cannot have people simply plucking uncosted promises out of the air.

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[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

I am pleased to appear under your chairmanship this morning, Mr Hood. I congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) on securing the debate. He made a speech that, by his standards, was encompassing; I could agree with most of what he said until, tragically, he veered off towards the end.

According to Project Fear in Scotland, we might imagine that from the day after independence, Postman Pat will be leading a convoy of little red vans, making a break for the border. That is utterly ludicrous. The assets of the mail service—the pillar boxes, the sorting offices and equipment, the vehicles and, above all, the hard-working and magnificent staff of Royal Mail—will still be in place and will continue, whatever the ownership structure.

The first point to make is that none of us can know for certain what Royal Mail will look like either in 2014 or on independence day in 2016. It is being privatised by the Government; the Scottish National party will fight privatisation, as we have always fought it, even when the Labour party proposed it. If we are unsuccessful, however, we will have to deal with the position that we find on independence. The only protection that the consumer will have, if the privatisation goes ahead, is from the regulator, Ofcom, which should not give any of us comfort.

The hon. Member for Glasgow South West discussed the universal service obligation, and I share his concern. Under the Postal Services Act 2011, Royal Mail is obliged to continue a universal service and is the only one to fund it. The Communication Workers Union has already expressed concerns that Ofcom is allowing trials of end-to-end deliveries from other operators, which will inevitably lead to the cherry-picking of profitable routes in urban areas and the inevitable pressures that that will put on rural and less affluent areas. That is a problem not only for Scotland, but for all areas of the United Kingdom.

What protection does the consumer have for the universal service obligation? Last year, Ofcom decided that price caps should be removed from all Royal Mail products apart from second-class mail. As a result, the only truly universal service is second-class mail. First-class mail could be priced out of the reach of many people, and already our stamp price is one of the highest in Europe. Just how many people and, crucially, small businesses will send mail first class?

None of that is the result of Scottish independence—that is happening now, under the United Kingdom Government and as part of the United Kingdom postal service, even before it is flogged off to a private operator. The Scottish Government have given a clear commitment that, with independence, Scotland will at the very least match the current terms of the universal service obligation.

[Anas Sarwar]

Will the hon. Gentleman guarantee that the Scottish Government’s White Paper will set out in detail how postal services would operate in an independent Scotland? Will a full costing be attached?

[Mr Weir]

The Scottish Government will set out their plans. The hon. Gentleman asks us to do that, even though his party is trying to form a Government in 2015 and yet will not tell us what Labour will do with the postal service, because the manifesto is still being written.

We are told that the highlands and islands could get higher charges. Have Members who say that read the Postal Services Act 2011, because that is already possible under the present system? Indeed, Royal Mail has already tried to introduce zonal pricing in some areas. Nothing prevents Royal Mail or its new private owners from introducing zonal pricing in any service, other than the universal service, which, as I have already explained, could be nothing more than the second-class service.

I took the matter up with Ofcom, which wrote to confirm to me:

“Ofcom does not have any powers to restrict Royal Mail from introducing this pricing variation related to user location, as the Postal Services Act 2011 limits our regulatory powers to universal services and access”.

That comes from the horse’s mouth. Members might think that I am the only one to think this, but the Communication Workers Union made exactly the same point.

Section 43 of the 2011 Act allows Ofcom to review the USO and to recommend, among other things, a review of the minimum requirements. It could reduce what is covered by the USO. That is not the future that we want in Scotland. Royal Mail should be a public service, and if it has not been fully privatised before independence, we will stop the process in Scotland. We have never accepted the mantra of successive Labour and Tory Governments that Royal Mail must be looked at as merely another business. It is an integral part of the country’s infrastructure and will be treated as such in an independent Scotland. Indeed, the postal operator must be recognised as an economic driver, especially in rural areas, and not as a drain on the economy in competition for the resources needed for schools and hospitals, which is how it is so often portrayed by the present UK Government.

An old claim is that somehow postal charges between Scotland and England will increase, but Members should be aware that postal charges are co-ordinated through the Universal Postal Union. Letters and packages that start with one designated postal operator can be passed to other postal operators in other countries, and they take responsibility for forwarding them. Under the universal postal convention, there is an obligation on each country to ensure that such items are quickly delivered on the same terms and conditions as its internal mail.

There is absolutely no reason why costs should increase in Scotland. The Scottish postal service will decide the cost of postage in Scotland and to other destinations. In Ireland, the Republic has an all-Ireland price, and there is no reason why something similar cannot operate in Scotland. It would become a member of the UPU, as have other countries that have gained independence.

[Lindsay Roy]

Will the hon. Member explain why the Scottish Government make extensive use of TNT’s services?

[Mr Weir]

The previous Labour Government used TNT extensively because procurement rules force many Governments and public organisations to use such services. I have already said that Labour tried to privatise the industry, but Labour Members seem to forget that. The previous Labour Government tried to privatise postal services; we opposed that; and we continue to oppose it. We will ensure that the Scottish postal service meets the needs of Scotland and the Scottish people.

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

I do not normally intervene from the Front Bench, but for clarity I want to put on the record the fact that the previous Labour Government would have kept the postal service in public hands. The public sector would have owned 60%, so it is incorrect to say that the previous Labour Government wanted to privatise Royal Mail.

[Mr Weir]

I am sorry that the shadow Minister does not remember his own policy. Lord Mandelson proposed privatisation of 49%, not 40%. The hon. Gentleman may believe that the situation would have stopped there, but the clear intention was to privatise. What will happen if privatisation goes ahead? In the Netherlands, where the universal service provider—[Interruption.]

[Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair)]

Order. The hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) and the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) should remain in order while the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) is on his feet.

[Mr Weir]

Thank you, Mr Hood.

I understand that, under the Government’s proposals, there will be an initial public offering on the stock market, but there is absolutely nothing to stop Royal Mail falling into the hands of an alternative provider such as Deutsche Post or TNT, and the history of privatisation suggests that that is likely. When the energy companies, BT and British Gas were privatised, most of the shares in the first instance went to small investors, but now the companies are owned by large institutions. It is very likely that that will happen to Royal Mail.

It is also likely that in due course a provider such as Deutsche Post or TNT will become the owner of Royal Mail. That is not to be welcomed, given the attitude of some of those companies to the universal service. The Communication Workers Union made the point that in the Netherlands, where TNT, the universal service provider, is privately owned, within a year of the mail market being fully opened to competition in April 2009, the managing director of TNT’s European mail network declared that the USO was

“a kind of Jurassic Park and we should be rid of it”.

The company plans cut down its deliveries.

[Mr Davidson]

Will the hon. Gentleman clarify whether a separate Scotland would intend to renationalise Royal Mail if it had by then been privatised?

[Mr Weir]

That is a bit rich when Labour will not tell us what it will do in 2015, but I will be clear. It is my view that we should do so, and that is one of the options that we will be looking at. We believe that it must be in the interests of the Scottish people and all areas of Scotland, and that that can be achieved only by public service. We have experience in Scotland of courier deliveries and what happens when the service is private. That is my view and that is what I shall be pressing for.

Country-to-country transfers are well understood, and Royal Mail receives 266 million letter post items and 1.7 million parcels from international origins. The system works perfectly well. In 2004, member nations of the UPU adopted a system aimed at covering their actual mail processing costs. There is absolutely no way in which a mail operator in the remaining parts of the UK could impose excessive charges on a mail operator in Scotland for mail delivered to or from Scotland or in transit to another destination, because the costs would be identical to those within its territory. Before anyone gets excited, all recently independent states had access to the UPU almost immediately on gaining independence.

The hon. Member for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie) talked about the workers. In fact, Royal Mail employment in Scotland is below the UK average and there is scope for making a better service and creating more employment. There are also prospects for helping the Post Office, which is not being privatised but is important to rural areas. We will build a delivery service for social security and many of the things that have been taken away from post offices. We will be looking to help post offices. Although it is a reserved matter, the Scottish Government have a good track record of helping post offices with a diversification programme, rates relief and business bonuses.

My time is running out, so I will end by saying that it is true that there are real dangers for postal services in Scotland post-2014. That danger does not come from Scottish independence; it comes from remaining in the United Kingdom and seeing a postal service privatised by the present Government. I predict that in the unlikely event that the Labour party forms a Government at Westminster in 2015, it will do what it always does and decide that it cannot reverse the privatisation. Labour will just go along with what the Tories have done. There will be a privatised postal service in the UK if the Government’s proposals continue. In Scotland, there will be a postal service that works for the people of Scotland and the communities of Scotland. We will build that as part of independence.

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[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to serve again under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) on producing in his wonderful fashion 25 minutes of wonderful speech defending not only Royal Mail and the Post Office, but the Post Office and Royal Mail as well. Time is short, so I will not run through the issues with the privatisation that is happening now at UK Parliament level; there will be a statement in the House at 12.30 pm, where the Government will lay out their plans for privatisation. It is important to be crystal clear about the Opposition’s position: we are 110% against the privatisation of Royal Mail. There was a debate in the House last week, so I will not run through the reasons for that position.

I am absolutely delighted that Liberal Democrats have said on the record this morning in this Chamber that privatising Royal Mail is Liberal Democrat policy, not only Conservative party policy. The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon) wrote a letter in 2009 to the Communication Workers Union, saying that he was against privatisation, so perhaps only Liberal Democrats are for it and the Conservative party is against it.

Now that the Edinburgh agreement has been signed and the referendum will happen in September 2014, Scottish people, Scottish politicians and civic Scotland—if I may use that unwieldy phrase—are asking serious questions about what services will look like post-independence if they vote yes. We always say that Scotland can of course be an independent country, but what kind of country will it be? I am waiting for the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) to jump up or tweet to say that all we are doing is scaremongering, but we are asking the legitimate questions that the people of Scotland want answered. If he does not want to take my word for that, an article a few weeks ago by Lesley Riddoch, who is certainly a vocal supporter of the yes campaign, says that

“Scots will be jumpy about the possibility of losing access to the Post Office and Royal Mail. A generation of Scots grew up with Postman Pat and helped reverse the Post Office’s ill-fated transformation into Consignia.”

No one knows what postal service will look like in an independent Scotland. Even Lesley Riddoch is asking questions that the SNP and the Scottish Government have not been able to answer.

The postal network in Scotland is critical to not only the economy and business, but the people who live there. Whether a letter is posted from Orkney to Oxford or from Peterborough to Edinburgh—I should have said Perth to keep the peace going and please the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire—there is one cost and the exactly the same very high service standards. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West has already mentioned the one-price, equal service and that service standards for private companies are not as high, which has given Royal Mail an unlevel playing field to compete on against private companies. Statistics from the Federation of Small Businesses show that Scottish businesses rely on Royal Mail more than businesses in the rest of the UK—56% to 42%. That highlights a fact that we will talk about when we go on to other issues: Scotland relies on the Post Office and Royal Mail far more than other parts of the UK. There are proportionately more post offices in Scotland.

The statistics in the wonderful briefing from the National Federation of SubPostmasters speak for themselves. There are 1,415 post offices on Scotland, of which 67.5% are rural, as opposed to just under 55% in the rest of the UK. Scotland has 12% of UK post offices with 8.3% of the population, so we have proportionately more in Scotland. Those statistics alone tell us that the post office network, as opposed to Royal Mail, in Scotland is significantly more expensive to operate, because there are more post offices and more rural post offices. We know about the social side of post offices in rural areas.

We need to know what the SNP and the Scottish Government plan to do with postal services in Scotland. They have said that they will abide by EU directives. There are questions for a university thesis about whether we will be in the EU, but for the sake of argument, I shall use the hypothetical scenario that Scotland will be, so the EU directive covering the universal service obligation baseline will kick in. The UK has gold-plating on top of that baseline—the only EU directive that the UK Government support gold-plating—which says six days a week, one price, anywhere.

If the Scottish Government maintain the six-days-a-week universal service obligation, as they confirmed last week under questioning from the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills, the next question to ask, after congratulating them on making one commitment, is, how will they pay for it? How much will that mean in subsidies for the post office network? How much will it mean in subsidies for the Royal Mail network? How much will a stamp cost in Scotland for internal and external mail? How much will it cost to post a letter from Newcastle to Edinburgh?

The hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) says that Ireland is covered by the same price, but that is Ireland’s choice; England’s choice could be that they will use cross-border postal services at international or European rates. It is England’s decision, not the decision of Scotland or the Scottish people.

We have looked at post office statistics. We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) about the extreme pressures at the moment on sub-postmasters and their incomes, which continue to drop. If Royal Mail is privatised, which will be announced this afternoon, there are grave dangers that the inter-business agreement will be either salami-sliced between now and its renewal in 2022 or disappear altogether. What do the Scottish Government guarantee will be the relationship between the Post Office and Royal Mail at separation? How much will it cost at separation and how much will the inter-business agreement provide to the post office network to maintain the incomes that my hon. Friend mentioned?

[Mr Weir]

The hon. Gentleman asks lots of questions—obviously, the Scottish Government will have figures to answer many of them—but can he answer the same questions on what the position will be in the UK? There is uncertainty in privatisation and in the interaction between a privatised Royal Mail and the post office network and Post Office Ltd, if privatisation goes ahead.

[Ian Murray]

Surely, that is a question for the Minister to answer. The Opposition are saying clearly that privatisation of postal services in the UK is wrong; we should not privatise Royal Mail, because of the threats to the inter-business agreement, the universal service obligation and the regulatory framework. The regulatory framework provides us with another example of issues that will have to be resolved. What will it look like? Who will regulate postal services in Scotland? What are the parameters under which the services will operate?

We are running out of time and I want the Minister to be able to answer the questions. The Opposition are constantly accused of scaremongering when we pose legitimate questions as simple as, how much will it cost to post a Christmas card from Edinburgh to Glasgow first class? I want to send one to my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West. He is on my Christmas card list. I probably will send him one. How much will it cost? That is not scaremongering. It is a simple and straightforward question.

As we sit in this Chamber today, it is clear that the Scottish Labour party is the only party standing up for the universal service obligation in Scotland. The Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats want to privatise it, and the SNP has absolutely no answers to the basic questions about how it will be maintained. The message must go out loud and clear that, until the SNP can answer those basic questions, it cannot tell us how to maintain the universal service obligation and postal services in Scotland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. How apt it is to have a Scot in the Chair for a debate on the important matter of postal services in Scotland post-2014. I thank the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) for securing the debate, and for his wide-ranging introductory speech. We have covered a good amount of ground today; indeed, I wondered at times whether we were in a rerun of a debate from two weeks ago on the privatisation of Royal Mail. I know that the hon. Gentleman was unfortunately not able to attend that debate, but I hope he is able to be in the Chamber later today for the Secretary of State’s statement on this issue. The hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) mentioned that there may well be further opportunities for discussion in Backbench Business Committee debates, if the Committee so agrees, so I am sure that we will return to the issue time and again over the next few months, and beyond.

In 2014 we face an historic choice in Scotland—arguably the most important vote that Scots will have cast in decades. I hope that there will be a high turnout in the independence referendum, and I very much believe that the Scottish people will decide to reject the notion of independence because we are better off as part of the United Kingdom. It is important that over the next 14 months or so we continue to have a full and healthy debate about all aspects of what such a change would mean for everyday life in Scotland. The Government are, of course, making the case that Scotland should remain in the United Kingdom, and as part of that we are carrying out a programme of analysis across a number of Departments about Scotland’s place in the UK and how it contributes to, and benefits from being part of, the UK.

I am sure that right hon. and hon. Members are aware of the paper that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills produced on 14 June, which demonstrated that Scotland and the rest of the UK benefit from the domestic market and the shared business framework that underpins it. The paper had a section on postal services as part of a more general consideration of infrastructure in Scotland. We take the view that we are better and stronger together as part of the United Kingdom. We are not making contingency plans for the Scottish people deciding to leave the United Kingdom because we do not believe that that will be the outcome, but it is absolutely for the Scottish Government to set out what would happen in that scenario, given that it is they who are advocating the change, and that is a challenge for the SNP.

We have had a fair challenge from the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) about the price of a stamp for a Christmas card because, although we have e-mail these days, there is something lovely about sending and receiving Christmas cards and people want to know how much it will cost. There are question marks over what the cost would be in an independent Scotland.

[Mr Weir]

The Minister says that the Scottish Government or the SNP have to make clear the cost of sending a Christmas card post-independence. However, under her privatisation proposals we do not know what the cost will be in 2016 for sending a Christmas card in the UK whether or not there is independence for Scotland, because there is no longer a price cap on anything other than second-class mail.

[Jo Swinson]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s intervention because it gives me the opportunity to confirm and clarify the situation. I appreciate that there are strong views on different sides about the privatisation of Royal Mail, but many wild stories have been going about. It is absolutely clear that the universal service obligation remains. The obligation is enshrined in the Postal Services Act 2011, which was passed by this Parliament. The Act sets out that there has to be a six-days-a-week service to every location at an affordable and uniform price. That provision is monitored by the regulator Ofcom, and will remain in place after privatisation. The exact same set of protections that is in place at the moment will, therefore, remain.

What is unclear, however, is what would happen in an independent Scotland. We do not know whether Scotland would be a member of the EU and therefore whether the EU postal services directive would apply. If we assumed that it did, there would have to be at least a five-days-a-week universal service—Ireland has such a service. Only five EU countries, including the UK, go beyond that and have a six-days-a-week service. We do not know whether it would be a five-day or a six-day service in an independent Scotland. The SNP says that it will give guarantees—I noted that from the speech made by the hon. Member for Angus—but it does not back up how it would do it.

This comes down to the basic economics point to which various hon. Members have referred, and which applies to both the Post Office and Royal Mail. What we have in Scotland is a different sort of demography and geography to that of the rest of the UK, which is something that the hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson) mentioned. His area is very urban, and the costs of the logistics of getting about to deliver letters are, therefore, lower than they would be in a very rural constituency. If one country has a higher proportion of rural areas and addresses than another—Scotland compared with the UK for example—the service becomes more expensive to operate, and that cost must be accounted for. An hon. Gentleman chuntered from a sedentary position, “Do you think that Scotland could not run a postal service?” Of course it could, but we need to know what the costs will be. To suggest that they would be the same as for running the service across the UK, where there is cross-subsidisation between more densely populated areas and rural areas to offset the higher costs in the latter, is to misunderstand the basic economics.