Ian Davidson
Main Page: Ian Davidson (Labour (Co-op) - Glasgow South West)Postal Services in Scotland after 2014
Ian Davidson Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)
After 2014, there are two alternative futures. There is the possibility of separation or of Scotland remaining within the United Kingdom. The debate must take into account which is more likely. I looked this morning at the William Hill website, and I see that it is 9:1 on that there will be a no vote in the referendum. Bookies are not in the business of losing money, so I think it is safe to assume that the bookies have got it right. Therefore the question of separation is now largely hypothetical.
Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on obtaining the debate in such a timely fashion, given the pretty dreadful announcements that we expect later this afternoon in the House. Does he agree that in this situation competitors should operate on a level playing field, and that the private sector should not be allowed to cherry-pick some of our greatest national assets?
Mr Davidson
Indeed. I intend to come on to that, but I want to make the initial point that now, as distinct from when I first applied for the debate, the question of separation is largely hypothetical. Therefore we need to discuss the future of postal services in Scotland in the context of remaining in the United Kingdom. Many of us who have been involved in previous elections have seen, either from our own party or the one that is now in government, a decapitation strategy, but I never expected to see the yes campaign operating a self-decapitation strategy, ejecting members of its leadership, as it is doing. It is now pretty clear that the yes campaign is no more than a sham. Essentially it is an SNP campaign for separation.
I want to turn to the question of the future of Royal Mail within the Union and under the present Government. I never thought that I would see a Liberal Secretary of State proposing privatisation of the Post Office, and a Liberal Minister supporting it in a Westminster Hall debate. Who—among those of us who can remember how Liberals previously campaigned for this post office to remain open, or in defence of that aspect of Royal Mail, always blaming someone else—would have thought that they would be the drivers of the privatisation of Royal Mail? A Liberal Secretary of State will this afternoon call for its privatisation. What a turn-up for the books. Well, well.
We must be clear about the Royal Mail’s position. It is clearly not a company in crisis. It has been suggested that it faces imminent danger, and that privatisation is the only answer. That is simply not correct. Its profits more than doubled in the past year, to £403 million from £152 million in 2012. Revenues grew by 5%. The Government, correctly, have taken over the assets and liabilities of the Royal Mail pension scheme, which saves the company £300 million a year. Parcel volumes are growing. Royal Mail, admittedly, used to be a letters company with a parcels business attached. Now it is the converse: essentially a parcels company with a letters business attached. Therefore, adjustments are obviously required. However, it is adjusting. Its business is expanding and it is doing exceptionally well.
Why, then, is there a drive by the Government for privatisation, fronted by the Liberals? Is it because, as has been argued, Royal Mail can have access to money only if it is in the private sector? That is clearly not correct. Network Rail, for example, which is essentially in the public sector, has access to private sector money and borrowing. When Moses came down from the mountain with the ten commandments, he did not also have the Treasury rules on a block of stone. Those rules were drawn up by the Treasury and can be changed by the Government. The Government—and particularly the Liberals, which I find particularly appalling—choose to argue that Royal Mail needs private capital and that the only way it can be brought into the business is through privatisation.
The Labour party is opposed to privatising Royal Mail. We want to clarify why the Government are in such a rush and are pressing forward with the proposal now. Is it simply because of the deficit in the Government finances, and because they want a large influx of money to pay for bankers’ bonuses? Should Royal Mail be privatised to pay for bankers’ bonuses? That is one of the questions to which we need an answer from the Government. There are credible alternatives to privatisation. There is no crisis to solve, and therefore it is inexplicable—other than that it is ideologically-driven—that the Government should be putting the proposal forward.
The obvious anxiety is that the universal service will come under pressure with privatisation. The point of introducing private sector finance will be to allow those in the private sector who buy shares to make a profit. They will obviously seek to enhance that profit by driving down costs, and one of the best ways for them to do that will be through the universal service obligation.
The Government have shown that they are willing to undermine Royal Mail at every opportunity by, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) said, allowing other people to cherry-pick the best fruits—the busiest areas—and drain funds from Royal Mail, so that it will not be able to cross-subsidise as an overall national service would. [Interruption.] We cannot have faith in a system of regulation. We have seen, for example, that the power company regulators have been impotent—[Interruption.] One of the Scottish National party Members keeps chuntering away. Would the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) like to intervene, or does he just want to chunter?
Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair)
Order. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire cannot have a chat across the Chamber. If he wants to intervene he should do so, but he should not comment while a Member is on his feet speaking.
Mr Davidson
Thank you, Mr Hood. It is interesting that SNP Members choose not to intervene, but just to chunter from a sedentary position.
The Government claim that the universal service is enshrined in law, but I understand that that covers only the bare minimum, and we are of course aware that the Government cannot bind their successor. It cannot be guaranteed that future Governments will abide by pledges that are given now.
John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)
We have seen the Government’s bully boy tactics over imposing privatisation, and, once again, in the chuntering and shouting from the side, we have seen the SNP’s bullying. Is it time that we all stood up for what is right—for the workers and the people who use Royal Mail every day?
Mr Davidson
Of course we should stand together. Those of us who oppose the privatisation of Royal Mail should make our opposition clear and vote together against what is being put forward, to my astonishment, by the Liberals. We would normally expect an alliance in Scotland between the Labour party, the nationalists, the Greens and the Liberals against a Conservative Government who are proposing privatisation, but we are not in that position.
Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)
The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting case, but he must know that the SNP has stood against, and continues to stand against, the privatisation of Royal Mail, whether it comes before or after independence.
Mr Davidson
Yes, I am aware of that. That is why I am saying that I can see no reason why the hon. Gentleman’s party, the Labour party and indeed the Greens, who I understand also oppose privatisation, should not be campaigning jointly against the forces of darkness, as represented undoubtedly by the Conservatives. What surprises me is the way in which the Liberals seem to be aligning themselves with the forces of darkness on privatising the Post Office. A year ago, two years ago or three, four, five years ago, who would have expected that the Liberals would be the people proposing the privatisation of the Post Office in the House this afternoon? That is a disgrace. [Interruption.] If my chuntering friends from the SNP are willing to campaign with us, we will campaign across Scotland.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Jo Swinson
It may be helpful if I correct the record. The hon. Gentleman just mentioned the privatisation of the Post Office, but it is important to be clear that this is not about the privatisation of the Post Office. Royal Mail is up for privatisation; the Post Office is absolutely not.
Mr Davidson
I thank the Minister for that clarification. I am sorry, but like many of us, I remember the days when Royal Mail and the Post Office were part of the same organisation. I sometimes have a tendency to use the names interchangeably. I excuse her from any suggestion that she is in favour of privatising the Post Office. However, she does stand charged of wanting to privatise Royal Mail. If she wants to correct that, I would be more than happy to give way to her again. [Interruption.] All right, there is silence.
Mr Weir
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way once again. I remind him that we opposed privatisation when Labour tried to privatise Royal Mail, and we continue to oppose it now. In fact, I attended the Backbench Business Committee yesterday with his colleague, the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark), to ensure that we get a debate on privatisation as soon as we come back after the summer recess, before this pernicious Bill goes through.
Mr Davidson
I am not suggesting, nor have I suggested at any point, that the SNP supports privatisation. Despite our disagreement on those issues on which the SNP is wrong, we can work together to oppose the privatisation of the Post Office. I see no difficulty on that whatsoever. It is entirely possible to find ourselves in strong disagreement with people on some issues yet work together with them on others. I extend the clenched fist of friendship—[Laughter.] I extend the hand of friendship so that we are able to work together against the Liberal proposal to privatise the Post Office.
Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. I am sorry to break the hand of friendship that he has offered to SNP colleagues, but does he not agree that actions speak louder than words? In 2009-10, the Scottish Government awarded £220,000 of contracts to DHL, which delivered 6,162 pieces of literature. FedEx was awarded £49,514 of contracts in 2010-11, and an £8 million contract has just been awarded to TNT, instead of Royal Mail. Does that not demonstrate the Scottish Government’s commitment to Royal Mail and its workers?
Mr Davidson
Goodness me! That is a surprise. I look forward to hearing from SNP Members, who are campaigning very strongly with us to oppose the privatisation of Royal Mail, as to why the Scottish Government, which they control, have been giving such contracts to the private sector. Goodness me, there must be some mistake, surely. [Interruption.] Are we going to get a correction? No, we are not. I can remember elections in which certain people sent mail through private companies, but those were just mistakes. Such things happen.
Let us be clear that a privately owned Royal Mail will undoubtedly apply downward pressure on the universal service obligation. We have seen that happen in Holland, for example, where the privately owned universal service is now likely to be reduced from six days a week to five days a week, with services being dropped on Mondays. We must recognise the alternative that lies in the private sector by looking at what private sector operators undertake at the moment. TNT, for example, operates on a principle of zero-hours contracts, whereby people who deliver for TNT are employed for zero hours. TNT constantly invites more people to the workplace than it needs on any given day so that it can guarantee itself enough numbers. That means, of course, as we used to see in the docks when they had the casual labour scheme, people are being turned away, potentially day after day, by privatisers who are treating workers simply as commodities, leaving those workers with zero hours on many occasions, which means they are unable to feed their family during the week. We can have little faith in the system of regulation, because nobody who understands the way in which the privatised industries have been operating has any confidence in the way in which they have been controlling those companies to date.
Finally—as you have previously indicated to me, Mr Hood, when a Member of Parliament says “finally” it usually means that he or she is about 40% of the way through their speech but simply wants to give their audience hope—I will address the question of the alternative future. As I indicated earlier, William Hill has odds of 9:1 on on there not being a no vote—sorry, I mean on there being a no vote. That is a bit like the confusion of Royal Mail and the Post Office.
The alternative future of separation calls into question the future of postal services in Scotland, and I understand that the SNP—rather than the yes campaign, because it has been marginalised, as we all know—has indicated that it intends to ensure a universal service obligation. My understanding is that the SNP has also indicated that there would be one price throughout Scotland, but it has not specified whether that one price would be the same price that applies in the rest of the United Kingdom, and I think it would be helpful if the SNP did specify that at some point. As we approach the referendum, there is an obligation for the SNP to clarify how it intends to fill the gap in financing Royal Mail in Scotland after separation, because that gap is presently filled by cross-subsidy from the rest of the United Kingdom. Operating a national service clearly involves cross-subsidy for rural areas, of which Scotland has a disproportionate number.
Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab)
Is not Royal Mail an excellent example of the dividends of sharing and pooling resources to promote fairness within a strong UK?
Mr Davidson
Absolutely. Royal Mail provides a service, particularly throughout the highlands and islands and the most scattered rural communities in Scotland, in a way that the private sector does not. It is noticeable that when the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs investigated the provision of postal services to rural communities, which was quite some time ago—when the SNP was still on the Committee, before it took the huff and walked off—it was clear that the private sector was not delivering to those rural communities; it was refusing to deliver to a variety of postcodes where the costs were much higher than elsewhere. Royal Mail was the only one that would deliver to those communities at the standard and universal price, and it is the cross-subsidy system that makes that viable.
Those who would break Scotland away from the rest of the United Kingdom have an obligation, as we approach the referendum, to spell out exactly how much they anticipate would be required from Scottish taxpayers to meet the costs of the universal service obligation. They cannot say that they want European or continental standards of service while at the same time being unwilling to pay for them because they want to reduce taxation levels, particularly on business. That simply does not add up. People in Scotland deserve to know the truth.
I can remember when the arc of prosperity was being floated a while ago. That was in the days when the SNP was actually against being in NATO. But we have had two changes since then, if I remember correctly: the first was that membership would be automatic, and now Keith Brown has conceded that it would not be automatic. Things change.
None the less, the Scandinavians were held out as an example to Scotland. Are hon. Members aware that in Norway, a first-class stamp costs the equivalent of 103.9p? That is the Scandinavian model. Is that what Scotland will have after separation? I think that we deserve to be told. What will the price of first-class stamps be in a separate Scotland? Will posting mail to other parts of the United Kingdom cost the same as at the moment? It is far more expensive to post mail from Northern Ireland to the Irish Republic than to other parts of the United Kingdom. In those circumstances, the Irish Republic is a foreign country, as Scotland will be to the rest of the United Kingdom.
Mr Davidson
That is a choice that the Irish made, but the cost of sending mail from Northern Ireland to the Republic is different. There is no guarantee at the moment about what will happen. Are SNP Members saying that they will guarantee that the cost of sending mail from any part of Scotland to any part of the United Kingdom after separation will be the same as sending it within the United Kingdom? If so, that must be costed. We cannot have people simply plucking uncosted promises out of the air.
Mr Tom Clarke
My hon. Friend is making such a good speech that I hesitate to intervene. Will he address the issue of independence from the point of view of the workers from the Communication Workers Union who came to see us last week? Will he bear in mind the jobs, the pensions and the individual rights of such workers? What assurance do we have that those will not change if privatisation goes through?
Mr Davidson
I am grateful for that point, because it was my final final point. Those of us who support Royal Mail remaining within the public sector—again, I extend the fist of friendship to my colleagues in the SNP; we should be campaigning together on this issue, on which we agree—need clarification from the Liberals about what the future holds for those whose services will be privatised and those who work to deliver those services.
Many postal workers have spent a lifetime in devoted service to Royal Mail. Many have worked above and beyond the call of duty. Many postmen and women in rural areas provide an essential lifeline to local communities, doing things far beyond the normal routine that we might expect in cities. What future do they have? Will this Government guarantee that there will be no deterioration in terms and conditions? Do they expect that private employers will be allowed to drive down wages and conditions as TNT has done? Why are they prepared to accept TNT handling this country’s mail at the moment on zero-hours contracts? We need answers to all those questions.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
I am enjoying the hon. Gentleman’s speech immensely. I am having great fun, and I thank him for securing this important debate. He challenged the Scottish National party about what we would do post-2014. He has challenged the Liberals and the Government about what they would do post-2014. What would the Labour party do? The Government are going to privatise today. Would the Labour party put Royal Mail back into the public sector? We need certainty.
Mr Davidson
At the moment, there is no certainty. As with a number of things, I anticipate that the Labour party will work up a manifesto for the next election. We will try to ensure that we have identified our priorities, and we will put those clearly before the people. In the meantime, we will do everything that we can to ensure that the change does not go through.
Mr Davidson
Well, that is an interesting point. Of course we do not know at the moment where we will be in 2014. We are putting all our efforts into ensuring that privatisation does not take place, so we are focusing on that. It is a bit like the question of the bedroom tax. Nationalists are calling on Labour to clarify whether we will reject it in 2015, when at the moment, the SNP could be doing something about it in Scotland by helping local authorities but declines to do so. It could pay the costs of the bedroom tax to local authorities and social landlords now, but it refuses.
That is the difference between us. At the moment, we are relatively impotent, regrettably, because we are not in power here or in Holyrood. The power lies, in this case, with the Conservatives and their front men and women, the Liberal Democrats. Did I mention that it is surprising to me that the Liberal Democrats are fronting the privatisation of Royal Mail? What a scandal that is. People ought to be aware of it—[Interruption.] There is no point in the Minister shaking her head. She is letting her tresses flow back and forth; I wish I could do that. None the less, it is a fact that the Liberals are selling off the Post Office—[Interruption.] Royal Mail; I apologise. We are opposed to that.
Mr Hood, I know that a large number of other Members want to speak, so finally—finally, finally—I thank you for your chairmanship of the debate so far.
Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair)
I have four speakers on my list, plus the two Front-Bench Members. I ask Members on my list to be considerate of others, so that everyone has time to speak.
Mr Weir
Thank you, Mr Hood.
I understand that, under the Government’s proposals, there will be an initial public offering on the stock market, but there is absolutely nothing to stop Royal Mail falling into the hands of an alternative provider such as Deutsche Post or TNT, and the history of privatisation suggests that that is likely. When the energy companies, BT and British Gas were privatised, most of the shares in the first instance went to small investors, but now the companies are owned by large institutions. It is very likely that that will happen to Royal Mail.
It is also likely that in due course a provider such as Deutsche Post or TNT will become the owner of Royal Mail. That is not to be welcomed, given the attitude of some of those companies to the universal service. The Communication Workers Union made the point that in the Netherlands, where TNT, the universal service provider, is privately owned, within a year of the mail market being fully opened to competition in April 2009, the managing director of TNT’s European mail network declared that the USO was
“a kind of Jurassic Park and we should be rid of it”.
The company plans cut down its deliveries.
Mr Davidson
Will the hon. Gentleman clarify whether a separate Scotland would intend to renationalise Royal Mail if it had by then been privatised?
Mr Weir
That is a bit rich when Labour will not tell us what it will do in 2015, but I will be clear. It is my view that we should do so, and that is one of the options that we will be looking at. We believe that it must be in the interests of the Scottish people and all areas of Scotland, and that that can be achieved only by public service. We have experience in Scotland of courier deliveries and what happens when the service is private. That is my view and that is what I shall be pressing for.
Country-to-country transfers are well understood, and Royal Mail receives 266 million letter post items and 1.7 million parcels from international origins. The system works perfectly well. In 2004, member nations of the UPU adopted a system aimed at covering their actual mail processing costs. There is absolutely no way in which a mail operator in the remaining parts of the UK could impose excessive charges on a mail operator in Scotland for mail delivered to or from Scotland or in transit to another destination, because the costs would be identical to those within its territory. Before anyone gets excited, all recently independent states had access to the UPU almost immediately on gaining independence.
The hon. Member for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie) talked about the workers. In fact, Royal Mail employment in Scotland is below the UK average and there is scope for making a better service and creating more employment. There are also prospects for helping the Post Office, which is not being privatised but is important to rural areas. We will build a delivery service for social security and many of the things that have been taken away from post offices. We will be looking to help post offices. Although it is a reserved matter, the Scottish Government have a good track record of helping post offices with a diversification programme, rates relief and business bonuses.
My time is running out, so I will end by saying that it is true that there are real dangers for postal services in Scotland post-2014. That danger does not come from Scottish independence; it comes from remaining in the United Kingdom and seeing a postal service privatised by the present Government. I predict that in the unlikely event that the Labour party forms a Government at Westminster in 2015, it will do what it always does and decide that it cannot reverse the privatisation. Labour will just go along with what the Tories have done. There will be a privatised postal service in the UK if the Government’s proposals continue. In Scotland, there will be a postal service that works for the people of Scotland and the communities of Scotland. We will build that as part of independence.
John Robertson
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that intervention. When I am putting out my election leaflet in a few years’ time, that will certainly be in it. I know that the hon. Member for Angus and his colleague, the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), will be doing the same, as will many other Opposition Members, so I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that clarification. It is important that we understand exactly what the position is, and I am sure that the Minister will back him up when she makes her contribution in a few minutes’ time.
Mr Davidson
Can I tell my hon. Friend that I saw a Liberal in my constituency once? We do not need to bother putting out leaflets against them there, but that was an incredible announcement from the right hon. Member for Gordon (Sir Malcolm Bruce). We are now being told that the Liberals are not simply dupes of the Conservatives in this matter; they are actually the drivers of the privatisation of Royal Mail. It is incredibly helpful to have that on the record. I am sure that they will pay a very heavy price for it at the next election.
John Robertson
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. He is probably right, but democracy is not always fair. It does not always work out the way we want it to. That said, it is our duty to ensure that the electorate are given all the information possible, and certainly Opposition Members will hold to account not only the Government, but the Liberals. In the last two general elections, the Liberals were second in my constituency, albeit more than 10,000 votes behind me. That said, they were still second. I would wager that they will not be second next time—we might have to give odds of 1:9 on that as well.
I say to the Minister that the rules were for guidance. I think that that will be appreciated. They were never supposed to be written on tablets of stone. They were there to guide, not to tell people what to do. Perhaps, when we are looking at the rules and things that have happened in the past and looking to the future, we can look to guidance, rather than strict rules, because one of the hardest things for any management or even any union is to be given rules that they think have to be abided by 100%, yet are used for guidance. In relation to some of the guidance, I would be inclined to ask what can be done for rural areas, the highlands and islands—generally, areas outside the city centres. I am very lucky; I live in an inner-city constituency, but I know that if Scotland were to become independent and the costs for postal services in Scotland were all to be grouped together, the people of Glasgow North West would pay an inordinate amount more than people in rural areas for service, because it will be cheaper to send stuff in my area and they will have to subsidise people outside my area. Will that be the case? Should it be the case? If not, what guidelines will the Government produce?
I will not go on, Mr Hood. I was going to mention other bits and pieces, but my colleagues have said almost everything. The only thing I want to say is that the Post Office means a hell of a lot to me. I was a GPO member and a Post Office member many years ago. I was on strike against privatisation for three weeks. I helped with picketing and making signs for picketing. It was never easy. Union members do not go on strike because they like strikes; they go on strike because they feel that they are being hard done by and they have a cause. If privatisation comes forward and all the people who want to invest in the Post Office look at what happened in the past, they will see that this is a different kind of privatisation, which may or may not make them money. If we are making money now in the Post Office, why would we get rid of it and put everything in jeopardy? Union members will feel hard done by and may take industrial action. I know that I will stand with them if they do, because they will be fighting for jobs.