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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Dunne)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Rosindell.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) on securing this important debate. He is a doughty champion of the skills and activities that take place around the submarine programme in his constituency, and I am delighted to have this opportunity to respond to this debate and to put on record the Government’s appreciation of all the work that he has done in his constituency to support that programme.
The recent return of HMS Trenchant from a record-breaking 11-month patrol reminds us of the unwavering dedication of our submariners. For 267 days, she was east of Suez, where our submarines have had a presence since 2001 and where she took part in NATO’s counter-terrorism and counter-narcotics operations. Therefore I would like to start my contribution to this debate by thanking all of those who serve in our submarines and their families, who support their loved ones while they are away, often for months on end. Their commitment is sustained because they know the importance of the role they undertake in protecting our nation. Whether they serve on a fleet submarine contributing to current operations—as HMS Triumph did, by launching cruise missile strikes during the NATO-led operation in Libya—or they deliver our continuous at-sea deterrent by patrolling the oceans every minute of every day—in April, of course, the Prime Minister welcomed HMS Victorious back from the 100th patrol of the current deterrent fleet, which was a notable milestone—our submarines have served this country steadfastly for more than 100 years. But their role is only made possible thanks to thousands of people around the UK, who build, support and maintain the submarines. Although Barrow, as the centre of excellence for submarine production, has the most visible part to play in this programme, we do not rely on that Cumbrian town alone.
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)
Although it might be out of order, I would like to put on record the work done by the deep maintenance people in Babcock in Plymouth.
Mr Dunne
I am naturally grateful to the hon. Lady for reminding me. She pre-empts my own remarks. I am happy for her to endorse that, because it is not just Cumbria that contributes to this enormous effort.
From specialist diver support courtesy of Divex in Aberdeen, to marine valves courtesy of Hale Hamilton in Uxbridge, not so far away, few corners of the UK do not benefit either directly or indirectly from the £9.8 billion total cost of the Astute programme—not least the maintenance on the south coast that the hon. Lady mentioned.
The current submarine build programme alone sustains more than 10,000 jobs across the UK, as we have heard. There are some 5,000 high quality and skilled jobs at nine BAE Systems sites across the UK and thousands more are supported through 400 suppliers across the country. Thanks to our commitment to build seven Astute class submarines, as set out in the strategic defence and security review, these people are set to be busy for years to come.
These are the biggest and most advanced attack submarines ever ordered for the Royal Navy and the first two have bidden farewell to Barrow to join their cousins at their base port, Clyde naval base. But the pace does not slacken. I have seen for myself the hive of activity that is the Devonshire dock hall, as the third boat, Artful, is set to follow closely behind. Construction of boats four, five and six is also underway.
It is easy to focus only on BAES in Barrow, but we should not forget that the power plant at the heart of every nuclear submarine—in the past, now and in the future—has come from the Rolls-Royce facility at Raynesway in Derby. Rolls-Royce has been central to our nuclear-powered submarine fleet for more than 60 years, as the only company in the UK with design and production capability in nuclear submarine reactor systems. We recently announced an investment of more than £1 billion, to ensure we retain this unique national strategic capability for many years to come. This investment will regenerate the facility and sustain reactor core production at the site, securing some 300 of the most highly skilled manufacturing jobs in the process.
Likewise, the fleet could not continue to operate without the support provided at Devonport dockyard, as the hon. Lady highlighted. The refuelling, refits and overhauls that are essential to keeping our submarines at sea are all carried out here, as the centre of excellence for submarine maintenance.
It is not only England that plays its part in the submarine programme. Quite apart from the vital work done in support of our operational submarines by the 6,700 personnel supporting operations on the Clyde, firms across Scotland are winning contracts in the supply chain for build and maintenance of the fleet. For example, as hon. Members from Scotland present in the Chamber are no doubt aware, the sensor support optimisation contract I signed recently with Thales UK in May has secured 50 high tech jobs in Glasgow, along with a further 250 in Crawley, Manchester and Somerset.
Thomas Docherty
The Minister knows that I am a huge supporter of the submarine programme. He has mentioned Scotland and is also aware of the seven now decommissioned submarines, lashed against the wall at Rosyth. If he has time, will he say a little bit about the plans for the end of their lives, and if not will he meet me, perhaps in the autumn, to discuss how that programme is progressing?
Mr Dunne
I am afraid that I do not have time to cover that point, but I am more than happy to meet the hon. Gentleman in the autumn to talk about the disposal programme. We made an announcement recently. The hon. Gentleman knows that this multi-year challenge is being carefully monitored and managed by the Ministry of Defence.
The sensor support programme contract that we signed with Thales will provide support to the eyes and ears of the fleet, which includes periscopes, sonar and electronic warfare systems for both the current and future submarine classes, as well as vessels in our surface fleet.
Although the ongoing build programme and the support to the current fleet are the most visible signs of our continued investment, defence is all about planning for the future and we must look ahead to building the next classes of submarine, the subject to which the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness devoted most of his speech. I will attempt to deal with some of the questions that he posed, but will not cover all of them, as he may not be surprised to learn.
We have learned much about the importance of sustaining this supply chain from the 10-year gap in submarine production in the UK after HMS Vengeance was launched in the 1990s, which the hon. Gentleman mentioned in respect of delays to the Astute class. Having to re-establish a submarine design, build, testing and commissioning capability that had lain dormant for a decade had a serious impact on the delivery of the Astute class and economic ramifications in Barrow. This has been well documented, but it is important that we do not lose sight of these hard lessons. For this reason, the Astute programme is crucial to sustaining the skills and the work force we need to meet our clear commitment to retain and renew a credible, continuous and effective minimum nuclear deterrent.
Dr Julian Lewis
I thank the Minister for giving way. I know that his time is so limited. It is worth putting on the record that the Prime Minister has said that, as long as he remains leader of the Conservative party, we will have a continuous at-sea deterrent. But it would help—and it would be nice—if those of us who have requested a meeting with the Secretary of State to discuss how we can prevent being blackmailed in future by the Liberal Democrats in the event of a hung Parliament, as we were in the past, could be given a particular date to look forward to.
Mr Dunne
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reinforcing the commitment of the Conservative party, from the highest levels, to continuous at-sea deterrence. I was not aware that he had requested a meeting with the Secretary of State. I am happy to take that up, and if the Secretary of State is unavailable I am happy to meet him as a fall-back, in the first instance.
The Astute programme is crucial to sustaining the skills and the work force that we need. Through that programme, we are undertaking the planning required to prepare for the successor submarines that will replace the Vanguard class from the late 2020s. Hon. Members will be aware that we are taking the steps necessary to be ready to start building the first submarine as we lead up to a main gate decision in 2016.
The hon. Member for Barrow and Furness asked whether this decision could be advanced, saying that this might help both cement the decision and, potentially, reduce the cost. Another lesson that we have learned from shipbuilding programmes is that unless the design is mature enough at the time that the investment decision is made—in other words, if a decision is rushed—additional frictional cost could be built in, through changes to the design programme after the contract has been priced, which can delay the programme and add significantly to the cost thereafter. We do not want to repeat the mistakes made at the time of the Astute contract being laid, by making a premature decision on the successor design.
John Woodcock
That is a good point. Could we have main gate and then do the pricing at some point later?
Mr Dunne
As the hon. Gentleman will learn as he gets more used to the defence procurement rules and regulations that apply in the Ministry of Defence, the main gate investment decision is taken at such time as the design is available, to enable the contractor to price against it. It is on the basis of a price proposal—not necessarily a firm price, but normally it will be, under this Government—against a specific design. That is the main investment decision point and we do not believe, at this time, that it will be possible to advance it.
I will press on, if I may, rather than addressing too many of the hon. Gentleman’s other specific questions. He asked about our commitment to continuous at-sea deterrence. I think that I have addressed that from the Conservative point of view. He asked about the alternatives review and the position of the Liberal Democrats. I have to refer him to the Liberal Democrats, to await the publication of whatever they or the Deputy Prime Minister choose to publish in relation to that.
We are clear that stability and security for the UK are absolute priorities in the Ministry of Defence, albeit they must be managed within a financially restrained approach, in these difficult economic circumstances. We have led the way in the submarine domain, in seeking to extract efficiencies through the submarine enterprise performance programme, which will help to ensure we have an affordable programme that continues to stimulate growth and secure jobs and, most importantly, continues to deliver some of the world’s most advanced, powerful and formidable machines to the Royal Navy.
Question put and agreed to.