Lord Prescott
Main Page: Lord Prescott (Labour - Life peer)Government Archives and Official Histories
Lord Prescott Excerpts
Lord Prescott
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, on raising the matter of government archives and records. I was a bit unsure whether my experience, which I wish to relate to the House, fitted into this, but in his first few words he made clear the kind of chaos that is associated with records and archives. That has been exactly my experience in the past two years, although it does not go back as far as that of the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers.
I need to set the background as to why I needed access to the records. The background came from the dirty tricks department in the Department for Communities and Local Government led by the Secretary of State, Mr Pickles, who decided to go back to my record of expenditures in the department in 2004-06. There was clearly a political reason. He spelt out all the expenditures that were done with government procurement cards in my name. That meant, of course, that the information was given to the press. There were PQs here and in the Commons. There were stories of me running around everywhere, eating in the best restaurants and so on. They were just not true but they were put out, and they were politically inspired. My concern was how to get access to the information and challenge it.
In 2011, I wrote to the then Cabinet Secretary, Sir Gus O’Donnell—now the noble Lord, Lord O’Donnell—saying that I was very concerned about the allegations because they were not true. He wrote two letters to me, which I have here, and I spoke to him about these. In his first letter, dated 18 November, he said that there had been some fraudulent expenditures, that the person had been caught and disciplined and that I should have been told before this information was released—that is supposed to be the normal courtesy, although it normally does not apply to me. Five days later, I received another letter from him contradicting his earlier letter. This one had his name stamped on it but was without a signature. I ended up with two letters from the Cabinet Secretary. The essential difference between the two letters was that both the information about finding the criminal, the person responsible, and the comment about my not being told had been deleted from the second letter. Clearly, I got a little concerned about who signed what where. I then asked Sir Gus O’Donnell, who said that he had signed only one letter and knew nothing about the second one. He was still in that early stage before his retirement. I clearly wanted to know, so I asked the department, but it would not give me the information.
I then applied to the Information Commissioner under the Freedom of Information Act. He looked at the matter and said that he backed the Secretary of State. I went to another appeal but again he backed the Secretary of State. What was he backing? He was backing the view, under Section 36 of the Freedom of Information Act, that if it is in the public interest not to tell you, he can deny you access to that information. The Cabinet Secretary and the Information Commissioner made it clear that they knew who the person was who gave the instruction. Since they will not give me the information, I suspect that we are back to the old SPADs—Mr Shapps was the Minister at the time, and Mr Pickles was Secretary of State. Somebody directed the Cabinet Office over the weekend to change the letter. They did not say to Sir Gus O’Donnell, “We’re changing your letter. Is that all right?”. It was a political intervention to take out two important bits of information and therefore certainly relevant to what I was concerned about.
The Information Commissioner confirmed that the information was available but said that it was not in the public interest to tell me because it was a high-profile public case. I am not sure that is a sufficient answer. Why is it a high-profile case? It is because they released the information to the press about my expenditures. That is what has made it high-profile. That then becomes the justification for the Information Commissioner not to tell me why it is not in the public interest. Telling you what is happening could have a “chilling effect” on civil servants. We are talking about political intervention here, not civil servants. One civil servant does not do this. This was a direct intervention on essential information by somebody in the Department for Communities and Local Government and with the Cabinet Office over the weekend.
My concern, therefore, is how do I get that information? I cannot get it through the Information Commission, who confirms the decision by the Secretary of State, Mr Pickles. What can you do about that? I know that it is difficult when you are up against the Information Commissioner who takes that view, but I am still concerned about this political intervention. There are many expenditures in that department and they are all listed. According to the department, I must have eaten myself around the ruddy world, and in all the best restaurants, of course. Therefore, I wonder whether I can get access to my diaries. One expenditure of more than £1,000 was spent in a hotel on Christmas Eve. Your Lordships will not be surprised to learn that I was not in London having a do; I was at home. I need the diary to be able to prove that these allegations against me are just wrong.
I then went to the Cabinet Office to ask for the information, but remember that the Information Commissioner says that I must appeal if I want to go to the final body for appeal, and I have to do it within 28 days. So I wrote to the Cabinet Office and I rang them there. I said that I wanted the information from my diaries. They told me that they were very difficult to find. In the end, I got a letter this morning telling me that they had found them—this is weeks later. The trouble is that the appeal has gone. Is that the normal service that one can expect? I know that if you are a privy counsellor you are supposed to get some privilege. I am not one now, but I was one then, so I should still have access to the information on the fast track—I expect the slow track from now on. However, the circumstances are such that I could not get the diaries. I needed the diaries to show where I was on what dates and perhaps throw doubt on all the expenditures involved. To that extent, I am frustrated. I did not think that I could bring the matter up until I heard the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, talk about delay in access to information, which Ministers have passed. If the Government can get it—and they have, in my case—and so can the Ministers, why not I, the man whom they are attacking? That is what I call political dirty tricks. I hope that they will read this speech. I just felt there was frustration and there was a chance in the debate of the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, to put my point of view before the eminent people who will follow and who have direct experience of what happens in the Cabinet Office.
Lord Butler of Brockwell
My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, for initiating this debate—at least I was until I heard the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Prescott. I am tempted to say that things must have gone downhill since my day but actually I think I can solve his problem for him. Unless things have very much changed, he does not have to go to the Information Commissioner to get the papers either about his diary or about his restaurant bills. Certainly it always was the case—I believe it still is—that any former Minister can consult the papers which he himself dealt with. My advice to the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, if he finds himself being traduced again, is to go directly to the department and ask to see them and not to bother with the Information Commissioner.
Lord Butler of Brockwell
I think the noble Lord should have gone to his own department.
I very much endorse what the noble Lords, Lord Hennessy and Lord Rodgers, said about the value of both the official histories and the National Archives, and the importance of good record-keeping in government, not just for the benefit of academic historians but because of their relevance to current decision-making. When the Government make decisions when they are not fully aware of the history of the subjects they are discussing, they are like a driver who goes out into the traffic without having taken the trouble to check in his rear mirror before taking action on the road. In that respect, both the files and the official histories are very valuable.
However, files and official histories are not enough. We need something else to exploit the lessons of history for policy decisions. If, when a crisis arises, there is no official history on the subject—certainly, if there is, it ought to be consulted; but it will be a monumental work that does not cover all areas of government policy—it is too late to go back to the archives. We need to ask what else is needed to exploit the lessons of history when they are necessary for informing policy decisions.
Of course, it would be impossibly expensive to employ enough historians in government to cover the vast span of each department’s responsibilities. But it is not too expensive for each department to have a historical adviser who would not necessarily be able to give advice on all major issues but who would have sufficient tendrils into the academic world to know where such advice could be obtained. It is not sufficient for this advice simply to be fed into the department. A historical adviser must be present at the table when major decisions are taken.
Of course, there were many in the Foreign Office and State Department who were fully aware of the complexities of both Iraq and Afghanistan when policy decisions were being taken on those countries. The question is whether they had the opportunity to make themselves fully heard by the decision-makers. In this respect, I admired the practice of Margaret Thatcher as Prime Minister, whose first step when taking a major decision was to hold a seminar of experts. The seminar she held when facing the unification of Germany has become well known. It did not necessarily overcome her prejudices but it was certainly a counterweight to them. It said that under the pressure of economies, all departments, with the notable exception of the Foreign Office, had disbanded their historical sections. If that is so, it is a grave disadvantage to the operation of government.
Will the Minister tell me, either in replying to the debate tonight or by writing to me, whether it is true that all departments except the Foreign Office no longer have historical sections? If that is untrue, which departments still have them? I also invite his comment on whether, even if departments cannot afford historical sections, they should at least have a historical adviser. Without such, government decisions will be taken blindly.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
First, I have apologised for the delay. It has been recognised that that should not have happened. Of course measures have been taken to ensure that the archive records should be labelled properly. I give an assurance that that has been done.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I am sure that the noble Lord will agree with me that labelling matters; it is good to know whose diaries are where.
In response to another point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, the noble Lord, Lord Butler, is absolutely correct that former Ministers can see their papers within their former departments. I assure the House that this is also outlined in the Cabinet Manual, which is available online. The noble Lord, Lord Butler, also talked about the coverage of historical advisers and sections across Whitehall. The FCO still has a historical section, the head of which is Patrick Salmon. I will write to the noble Lord on the coverage of historical advisers across Whitehall in general and, of course, place a copy of that letter in the Library.
On other initiatives, the National Archives’ information management assessment programme began in 2008. To date, most of the departments of state and several key agencies have been assessed and the remainder will be assessed during 2013-14. The National Archives is also about to begin a series of ongoing reassessments. The published reports of these assessments highlight good practice and make targeted, pragmatic recommendations for improvement. The National Archives works with each department to develop an action plan to address any risks and issues identified in the report.
The noble Lord, Lord Bew, referred to the 20-year rule. As noble Lords will be aware, from 1 January this year central government began its 10-year transition from the previous 30-year rule to the new 20-year rule. To smooth this transition, the National Archives has, with the active participation of departments across government, comprehensively revised its guidance and processes for the selection and transfer of records. The National Archives has been tasked to collect and publish regular reports on departments’ progress in reviewing and selecting records for permanent preservation during the transition period. The most recent report, with returns from 84 departments and agencies, was published on the National Archives’ website on 1 July. This level of transparency around government’s records management is, I suggest, unprecedented. With these reports and the transition itself, we have come a long way from the days, prior to the Freedom of Information Act, when our best hopes for transparent government lay with such excellent initiatives as the one led by the noble Lord, Lord Waldegrave.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, rightly raised digital records. Much work has been carried out to clarify and address the challenges presented by the shift from paper to digital records in the business of government. The National Archives now has greater confidence that the much discussed black hole in our history wrought by obsolete digital formats is unlikely to materialise on the scale that had once been feared. However, it is important that in the National Archives programme new technology is fully embraced. Digital continuity is also now taken much more seriously across government than it was five years ago. The programme of training instigated by the noble Lord, Lord O’Donnell, during his time as Cabinet Secretary has certainly aided a better understanding of our digital records and improved usability and accessibility. Of course, there remains the challenge of reviewing large volumes of digital records for sensitivity ahead of their potential release under the 20-year rule, and the National Archives is working with other expert bodies to develop solutions.
I am pressed for time but, in conclusion, we all recognise that there remains much to do to ensure that government records in all forms survive for future researchers and historians; indeed, that was expressed by all noble Lords today. However, I hope that noble Lords will take from today’s debate some reassurance that these issue continue to be explored and addressed and, more importantly, that much more of the Government’s work in this area is open to scrutiny by Members of this House than ever before.
The noble Lord, Lord Butler, said in his contribution that Governments need to look at history. He referred to the late Lady Thatcher and her policy of a panel of experts; I think that we can learn a great deal. The National Archives represents our history. I suppose, as a Minister of the current Government, that it is apt to finish with a quote from Sir Winston Churchill, who said:
“Study history, study history. In history lies all the secrets of statecraft”.