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Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con)
1. What recent representations he has received on House of Lords reform.
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
2. What recent representations he has received on House of Lords reform.
The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)
The Government have received more than 200 representations since the publication of their White Paper and the draft House of Lords Reform Bill was published in May last year.
Simon Kirby
I thank the Deputy Prime Minister for that answer. Can it be right that those who break the law should be permitted to continue making the law? Does he plan in the legislation to introduce parity between the two Houses?
The Deputy Prime Minister
One of the many things that would be included in a package of reform of the other place would be precisely an ironing out of some of those anomalies, so that those who had broken the law, who would not normally be entitled to continue to serve in this House, would not be able to do so in the other, reformed House either.
Nick de Bois
The Deputy Prime Minister rightly said in his new year message that Britain faced great challenges in 2012 if it was to avoid some of the economic problems of our European neighbours. How, then, can the Government justify consuming so much parliamentary time to push forward House of Lords reform at the expense of more pressing legislation?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I would caution my hon. Friend a little on this point. After all, we are going to invest a considerable amount of time on individual electoral registration, as we have in this Session on the plans for boundary changes—things about which he and his colleagues on the Government Benches feel equally strongly. I think it is perfectly possible to do more than one thing at once in government.
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
When the Deputy Prime Minister talks to the bishops and the archbishops about their futures, will he gently remind them that the overwhelming majority in Parliament, in the country and in the Church of England want women to be able to become bishops, and that it might not be in the interests of the House of bishops to try to amend or water down the current measure before Synod this week?
Mr Speaker
I am sure that that question refers to membership of the upper House by women bishops. I am sure that that is what the right hon. Member meant.
The Deputy Prime Minister
I was struggling to see what I could usefully contribute to this issue, as I do not think it is a matter for Government, but I admire the strength of feeling with which the right hon. Gentleman has expressed himself on this important issue.
Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)
I welcome the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey) to his place as the new Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change. As a fellow south Londoner, I wish him well in his new job.
Since May 2010, 117 unelected peers have been appointed to the House of Lords, at an additional cost to the taxpayer of £63 million during the course of this Parliament. We know that a new House of Lords reform Bill will be the centrepiece of the Queen’s Speech. The Deputy Prime Minister believes that all parliamentarians should be democratically elected and he also believes in cutting public expenditure. Will he therefore confirm that as long as his proposals on Lords reform are in train, there will be no more peers appointed to the House of Lords?
The Deputy Prime Minister
No, clearly—[Interruption.] We have been open in the coalition agreement that, pending wholesale reform of the other place, we will continue to make appointments to the House of Lords in the time-honoured fashion in proportion to the share of the vote won by the parties at the last general election. As with so many issues where the Labour party has become terrifically pious in opposition, this is not something to which the right hon. Gentleman’s party adhered when in government.
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
3. What plans he has to cap the size of donations to political parties by individuals and organisations.
The Deputy Prime Minister
The Government are committed to limiting donations and reforming party funding. This is best achieved, as far as possible, by consensus. To this end, I will write to the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition later this week, asking them to nominate representatives to take part in preliminary cross-party discussions.
The Deputy Prime Minister
Last year, when Christopher Kelly’s committee published a report containing its ideas for a package of reforms of party funding, all parties made clear that it was inconceivable that any of us would advocate an increase in overall state funding at this time. I will therefore stipulate in my letter to the leaders of the other main parties that such an increase is not on the agenda for now. However, that does not mean we could not make progress on many other areas of party funding reform on what I hope would be a cross-party basis.
Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
11. As Members know, if one of our constituents buys a car in all good faith and it subsequently turns out to have been stolen, he or she must hand it back. Will the Deputy Prime Minister’s examination of political funding explain why his party is insisting on holding on to the £2.5 million that it was given by the convicted criminal Michael Brown? Will the right hon. Gentleman give it back, or, at the very least, spare us the usual sanctimonious holier-than-thou sermon? [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”]
The Deputy Prime Minister
They liked that one.
As we have explained before, the Electoral Commission has made crystal clear that, given the knowledge and information available to the Liberal Democrat party at the time—well before my time as leader—the money was received in entirely good faith.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
What risks does the Deputy Prime Minister think are associated with any political party receiving 90% of its donations from one source, notably the trade unions?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I certainly think that there would be a significant reputational risk if that party were to table amendments and ask parliamentary questions written for it by that donor, as we learnt had been done last year. If that were the practice in any other party, members of the party concerned would be crying foul.
Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab)
4. If he will publish an implementation plan alongside the introduction of legislative proposals for individual electoral registration.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)
We will indeed be publishing an implementation timeline with our response to the Select Committee’s report. In it, we will consider implementing individual registration from the point of view of the elector, the administrators and the Government.
Tristram Hunt
The truth is that this is one of the most anti-democratic Governments of modern Britain. They are having the longest parliamentary term in the world outside Rwanda, and their rushed plans for voter registration now threaten to disfranchise Britain. As well as committing himself to publishing an implementation plan, will the Deputy Prime Minister commit himself to a phased introduction of voter registration, an end to the opt-out clause, and a full household canvass in 2014?
Mr Harper
I do not think that the hon. Gentleman received the memo from his Front Benchers, who took a much more sensible position during the debate the other day. The right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) said:
“I welcome the process that the Government have adopted and how they are acting on this matter. We have had a draft Bill and a White Paper with pre-legislative scrutiny, and the Deputy Prime Minister has said twice on the Floor of the House that the Government are willing to listen to concerns”.—[Official Report, 16 January 2012; Vol. 538, c. 475.]
I think that the hon. Gentleman ought to check what his party’s position is.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
I have been in touch with my hon. Friend and neighbour about the case of my constituent Mr Brian Hudson following his removal from the electoral register in Weymouth and Portland borough council simply because he had a second home. He had been on the list for three years. Does my hon. Friend think it right that anyone can be arbitrarily removed from an electoral register on the grounds that he does not have a “proper” second home?
Mr Harper
The law makes clear that it is a question of where people reside, not necessarily a question of where they simply own property. It is up to the electoral registration officer to make a judgment about whether people actually reside in an area. If my hon. Friend’s constituent thinks that he has been hard done by, he should go back to the ERO with some evidence about his residence, and take the matter from there. There is an established independent appeals mechanism.
Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
The Government have said that they accept that registering to vote is a civic duty. They have also indicated that they do not believe that the threat of a criminal conviction is appropriate when an individual fails to complete a registration form. In line with those positions, will they now commit themselves to a system of civil penalties in cases in which a person has been wilfully unco-operative with an electoral registration officer?
Mr Harper
We are going to consider that, as the hon. Gentleman will know from the debates that we have had. We have made clear that we do not think criminalising millions of people is very sensible, and I am glad that he welcomes that view. We will think about civil penalties, which have been recommended by the administrators in the Electoral Commission, and will say more when we respond to the Select Committee shortly.
Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)
5. Whether the commission to consider the West Lothian question will take evidence from Members of the (a) Scottish Parliament and (b) National Assembly for Wales.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)
The independent commission that we have set up will be able to take evidence from anybody who wants to give it, within its terms of reference. I am therefore sure it will be willing to take evidence from Members of the Scottish Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales, but that is a matter for the commission.
Sandra Osborne
I thank the Minister for that answer. I am sure he will be aware that constitutional change in one area can affect other areas. How might any changes suggested by his West Lothian commission affect reform of the House of Lords?
Mr Harper
I am not sure that those two matters are connected at all. The commission’s terms of reference are specifically to consider the effects and consequences for the House of Commons of the devolution arrangements in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The hon. Lady will know that we have appointed experts to the commission. They will come back to the Government with their recommendations, and I have committed then to talk to all parties in this House about how we might proceed further.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
Will the commission be able to consider what is really the Berwick-upon-Tweed question: how has it come about over so many years that Scotland seems to have had more money for schools and roads, and a great deal of say in the affairs of England?
Mr Harper
Specifically, we have made it clear that the commission will not be able to look at the financial questions. The Government have committed to resolving them, but we have made it clear that the deficit must be dealt with first, and then those other matters will be taken forward by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor.
Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)
6. What plans he has to improve the completeness and accuracy of the electoral register.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)
In order to deliver a more complete and accurate electoral register, we will introduce our proposals for individual registration, the principle of which is supported on both sides of the House. We have published our proposals for pre-legislative scrutiny and we will respond to the Select Committee shortly. I hope my hon. Friend will welcome these changes.
Paul Uppal
I welcome the Government’s initiative on individual voter registration, especially the provision to deny the postal vote to people who are unable to provide national insurance details. Does my hon. Friend agree that we might expand that principle by considering the option of requiring individual voter ID from people voting at polling stations?
Mr Harper
The Government do not have any plans to introduce a requirement for voters to present ID when they vote. We think the current arrangements get the balance right between accessibility and security. We keep these matters under review, however. My hon. Friend will know that there is such a requirement in Northern Ireland, which has a different history in this regard, but it is not in the Government’s plans at present.
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
The number of unregistered voters increased from 6 million in December 2010 to 8.5 million in April 2011, so there has been a huge 2.5 million extra unregistered voters in the space of four months. Will that devastatingly high figure increase still further as a consequence of the rapid introduction of individual electoral registration?
Mr Harper
The hon. Gentleman should acknowledge that the research that the Electoral Commission carried out—and which was funded and conducted at the initiative of the Government so that we could see the state of the existing registers—should shake any Members who had a sense of complacency, and who thought the existing system was perfect, out of that complacency. These findings show that there is an urgent need to move to a more accurate and complete system. If the hon. Gentleman waits for the response that we will give to the Select Committee report, he will learn that we have acknowledged some of those concerns, and I think he will be pleasantly surprised by our response.
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)
13. Following the data-matching pilots, what assurances can the Minister give that information and data held by the Department for Work and Pensions will be compatible with the current systems used by electoral registration officers throughout the country?
Mr Harper
I thank my hon. Friend for her question. The initial response to the data-matching pilots has been very positive. The Electoral Commission will publish its own independent assessment in March, and we will be saying a little more about that in our response to the Select Committee. Data matching opens up ways of ensuring that the register is more complete and accurate and requires voters to do less work.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
Will the Minister assure me that he and his colleagues will carefully examine the implementation of the individual electoral registration which has already taken place in Northern Ireland, that any lessons will be learned and that any necessary changes will be made to enhance the situation?
Mr Harper
I can absolutely give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. We have already set out some of the lessons we have learned, such as on implementing a carry-forward from the beginning. I have visited Northern Ireland, talked to the chief electoral officer there, looked at some of the very exciting outreach work that people there are doing to get younger voters registered and talked to people about how data matching works. We have learned lessons already and we will continue to work with people in Northern Ireland.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
7. What recent progress he has made on establishing the commission to consider the West Lothian question.
Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con)
8. What recent progress he has made on establishing the commission to consider the West Lothian question.
The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)
The establishment of the commission was announced by written ministerial statement on 17 January and the commission is due to report during the next parliamentary Session.
Robert Halfon
Treasury figures show that every English household pays £420 in tax to subsidise Scottish services, which means that Harlow families from my constituency are sending £16 million a year to Scotland. Is it not time to redress the balance and have English votes for English laws?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I am sure that my hon. Friend will want to take the opportunity to make his views known to the commission. As my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary has just explained, the commission is of course focused on procedures in this House, as they are affected by the process of devolution. I am not sure whether the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) will be directly relevant to the commission’s central terms of reference.
Sajid Javid
The recent debate on Scottish independence has shown that, unfortunately, a significant proportion of English people believe that Britain would be better off without Scotland, so may I press the Deputy Prime Minister a little further on English votes for English laws? Does he think that such a change will help to restore English faith in the Union?
The Deputy Prime Minister
That is why I believe that the commission is important; if we can get the balance right in this House, such that the changes brought about by devolution are properly reflected in our procedures here—in how matters are dealt with and votes are cast—that will, I hope, address some of the concerns raised by my hon. Friend’s constituents. It will also allow us all to make the argument that the vast majority of us in the House believe that Scotland is stronger as a strong part of a strong United Kingdom.
Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)
Given that all successful constitutional change in this country post war has taken place on the basis of cross-party consensus, does the Deputy Prime Minister not consider it a serious error not to have sought cross-party meetings or discussions in order to obtain agreement on the terms of reference for the inquiry?
The Deputy Prime Minister
Needless to say, once the commission, which is entirely independent of any party and of the Government, produces its report, we will be keen to enter into cross-party discussions. But at the moment we do not know what the commission is recommending, and it is very difficult to have a proper cross-party discussion without knowing what the recommendations will be.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
If the English regions can give evidence to the commission, what will be the appropriate body to do so from Yorkshire and Humber, which has a larger population than Scotland, as we no longer have a regional development agency and we have nothing that represents or gives focus to any strategic thinking for our region?
The Deputy Prime Minister
For a start, it would be a good thing if Members of Parliament from Yorkshire and Humber—I am a Yorkshire MP—were to give evidence where we have strong views on how the procedures of this House should be changed to reflect devolution. The commission has been established and its membership has been selected precisely to reflect the expertise we need on how this House works and how its procedures might need to be reformed.
Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)
As Deputy Prime Minister, I support the Prime Minister on a full range of Government policy and initiatives, and within government I take special responsibility for this Government’s programme of political and constitutional reform.
Meg Munn
The Deputy Prime Minister will be aware of increasing calls to change the law on the close of polls and that in Scotland it has indeed been changed. Although I welcome operational changes, does he accept that it is important that there can be circumstances where a lot of people turn up to vote towards the end of the poll and that to guarantee their right to cast their vote the law should now be changed?
The Deputy Prime Minister
The hon. Lady has raised this issue before and I understand that she feels strongly about it, but much of the evidence suggests that with proper organisation and administration the problems should not have arisen in the first place. She knows as well as I do the areas in Sheffield where a number of people, particularly young people, were disfranchised and were not able to vote, which was an absolute scandal. However, I think we need to be a little cautious about immediately resorting to the statute book to fix a problem that could be fixed by improved organisation and better performance from electoral officers.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
T3. May I congratulate the Deputy Prime Minister on the excellent and distinguished wise men and one wise woman he has appointed to the West Lothian commission? Will he extend the terms of reference so that they will look at the potential consequences of devo-max on this Parliament?
The Deputy Prime Minister
The commission is to focus on the procedures and practices of this House as they are affected by devolution as we know it right now. The case for further devolution to Scotland, which I happen to believe in as the leader of a party that believes in home rule, can be made but not until we know whether Scotland is going to be part of the United Kingdom in the first place. That can and should be resolved only by a decisive, clear, fair and legally binding vote in a referendum.
Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)
There is widespread concern that the NHS Bill lifts the cap for private patients from what is now typically 2% to up to 50%. That means half of all NHS beds and services being given over to private patients and half of all NHS doctors and nurses caring for private patients, which means that NHS patients will be put to the back of the queue. Will the right hon. Gentleman oppose raising the cap?
The Deputy Prime Minister
It is important that the right hon. and learned Lady does not provide a misrepresentation of the current situation. She will know that some London hospitals, such as the Royal Marsden, have a cap of around 30%, which is not nearly as low as she implies. We are saying that no NHS hospital should be able to earn 50% or more of its income through private practice—it should be less than half—and that every penny and every pound raised should be ploughed back into improving services for NHS patients. The alternative is to condemn a number of hospitals into outright financial crisis. How would that benefit families or the thousands of NHS patients who would otherwise have benefited from the extra income coming into the NHS?
Ms Harman
It is clear that yet again the Deputy Prime Minister is simply going along with the Tories. Giving half the NHS to private patients is not reforming the NHS—it is destroying it. Is not this an abject betrayal of everything the Lib Dems claim they ever stood for? Will he now drop the Bill?
The Deputy Prime Minister
What would be an abject betrayal of the NHS would be our condemning hospitals to possible closure because we were preventing them from raising money for the benefit of NHS patients. We are not—I repeat, not—suggesting that any NHS hospital should be able to earn private income as half or more of its total income. What is wrong with allowing hospitals that already do private work doing so in a manner that can only benefit NHS patients?
Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con)
T4. Will my right hon. Friend give heart to the Protect Stapeley campaign in my constituency, which is rightly campaigning against a plan for 1,500 homes, largely on green-belt land, without any obvious concern for the unacceptable pressure it will put on local services and infrastructure?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I am sure that my hon. Friend is working tirelessly as he always does for his constituents on what sounds like quite a controversial planning application in his area. I cannot comment on the specific application but, as he will know, the draft national planning guidance is very clear that we will always continue to cherish and protect the green belt and that any incursions on it can take place only for very exceptional and special reasons.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
T2. I understand that at this morning’s Cabinet meeting the Culture Secretary gave the Deputy Prime Minister for Dickens day a copy of “Oliver Twist”. Did his Tory Cabinet colleagues then burst into a chorus of, “Consider yourself one of us”?
The Deputy Prime Minister
That was a well-rehearsed and well-delivered joke. No, they did not.
Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con)
T7. This May, 11 English cities, including Sheffield, will be holding mayoral referendums. There is considerable evidence that elected city mayors lead to better local leadership and wider political participation, so will the Deputy Prime Minister join me in urging people to vote yes?
The Deputy Prime Minister
It would be wrong to start taking sides on referendums that are taking place across the country in different cities. The key thing is to make sure that the referendums are held in a way that allows the debate to be played out. I suspect some areas will opt for mayors and others will not; that is the great virtue of all this—it will be entirely dependent on people’s decisions in each local area.
Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
T8. The right hon. Gentleman has said:“For too long, internships have been the almost exclusive preserve of the sharp-elbowed and the well-connected.” Twenty-five per cent. of the internships currently advertised on the Government’s graduate talent pool website are for unpaid vacancies. What practical steps are the Government taking to provide more paid internships so that people from poorer backgrounds can get those opportunities?
The Deputy Prime Minister
As the right hon. Lady knows, we have made considerable progress on the internships that operate in Whitehall. When we entered government just over 18 months ago, I was astonished by quite how informal and laid-back the procedures were. We have now put them on a much more open and meritocratic basis, but of course I will look into the cases the right hon. Lady has drawn to my attention.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
T5. My right hon. Friend and I stood for election on a key manifesto commitment to lift the income tax thresholds —[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. Let us hear about which commitment the hon. Member for Cambridge wishes to speak.
Dr Huppert
I am sorry the party that introduced fees feels the need to shout about it.
We stood on a commitment to lift the income tax threshold to £10,000 and that has started to happen, but we need to go further and faster so that we can help more people across the country. What discussions has my right hon. Friend had with the Conservatives in the Government to try to take that forward?
The Deputy Prime Minister
We included in the coalition agreement our commitment to raising the income tax allowance as the No. 1 priority in our tax reforms for a very good reason: it is an extremely effective way of making the tax system more progressive. Let us remember that we inherited a tax system from Labour that scandalously imposed heavier tax on the wages of a cleaner than on the earnings of a banker. That is why we have increased capital gains tax by a full 10% and why this April, for the first time, we shall be taking more than 1 million people on low incomes out of paying any income tax altogether. I want to go further and faster and that is exactly the kind of thing we shall be debating in the weeks and months ahead.
Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)
T9. The Royal College of General Practitioners has condemned the health Bill and the Prime Minister is widely reported as suggesting an unpleasant end for the Health Secretary. Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree with his Cabinet colleagues about that unpleasant end?
The Deputy Prime Minister
As the Health Secretary has explained many times, the central purpose of the Bill is to ensure that those who know patients best, the GPs, surgeons, nurses and clinicians, have a greater say—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. First of all, Members should not shout their heads off at the Deputy Prime Minister; it is deeply discourteous. Secondly, I say to the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) that if he had yelled like that when practising in the law courts, the judge would have kicked him out. We cannot have it.
The Deputy Prime Minister
It would be so much easier to take the Labour party members seriously on the NHS if they committed to actually spending more money on it. They will not. In their manifesto at the last election, they said they believed in “bold reform” of the NHS, yet they will not tell us what that is. It was under the Labour Government that £250 million of taxpayers’ money was wasted on rigged private sector contracts which never ever delivered a single thing for a single NHS patient. It is this Government who are making it illegal to provide the sweetheart deals for the private sector that occurred under Labour.
Mr Speaker
Order. We have much to do and very little time in which to do it. We must progress.
Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)
T12. How will the Deputy Prime Minister assess the value for money of the constitutional changes he is putting forward? Will he put a more detailed note in the Library setting out how that will be assessed?
The Deputy Prime Minister
Clearly, we strive at all times to deliver value for money for the taxpayer. For instance, the proposals to reform the House of Lords are based on a radical reduction in the size of the House of Lords, which over a period of time will of course represent significant savings.
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)
T10. I am sure that the Deputy Prime Minister was rather disappointed to be described yesterday as the Government’s whipping boy by one of his high-profile celebrity backers. One way in which he could cast off that awful image is by demanding that his Tory masters drop this disastrous and unwanted Health and Social Care Bill. Will he do so, and does he actually think that the Health Secretary is doing a good job?
The Deputy Prime Minister
The hon. Lady is following her instructions dutifully, and I congratulate her on doing so. I think that she is referring to—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. The House must calm itself. I am worried about the shadow Justice Secretary. I have a concern about his long-term health and well-being, and I am not sure that he is safeguarding it.
The Deputy Prime Minister
I think that the hon. Lady was referring to Harry Potter. I suppose that the Labour party and Harry Potter have something in common—they both believe in magic. How else can we explain the Labour party’s economic policies and its complete, collective amnesia about its responsibility for failing to run the national health service effectively so that, as in so many other areas, we have to clear up the mess that it left behind?
Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con)
T13. What action will the Deputy Prime Minister take to boost social mobility in Britain?
The Deputy Prime Minister
One of the most important things is to intervene as early as possible. I pay tribute to some distinguished members of the Opposition who have provided important thinking on early intervention. That is one reason why, under this Government, hundreds and thousands of two-year-olds from deprived families will receive, for the first time ever, free pre-school support. Every single three and four-year-old from every family in this country will receive 15 hours of free pre-school support, and then they will benefit from the pupil premium: £2.5 billion of extra money targeted specifically on helping children at school. The evidence is clear: if we want youngsters to do well as they grow up, we have to help them in those crucial, early, formative years.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
T11. About 300 job losses have been announced today at Lloyds TSB in Scunthorpe. What can the Deputy Prime Minister do to ensure that the high pay of bank bosses is not paid for by the jobs of hard-working bank staff?
The Deputy Prime Minister
The announcement from Lloyds will be of immense concern to the employees involved, and it is important that Jobcentre Plus and other resources are made available to react in those areas that are affected. Of course there is huge concern in all parts of the House and across the country about bonuses, particularly in our state-owned banks. Again, it would be much easier to take the hon. Gentleman’s party seriously if it had taken action on bank bonuses and not let them rip in the first place over the past 13 years.
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
T14. Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that there is a moral and ethical case for going faster and further in raising the income tax threshold to £10,000 in the next Budget, mainly because that will help the least well-off who, unlike the wealthy who can save, have to spend every single penny that they earn on their keep because they must?
The Deputy Prime Minister
The simple principle of saying that millions of people, particularly those on average incomes and on low and middle incomes, should be able to retain more of the money that they earn is a very good one. It has not only a moral dimension but an economic logic, too, because with more money kept in their own pockets, hopefully that in turn will encourage many, many consumers to go out and shop and help move the wheels of the British economy.
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
Further to the question from my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), will the Deputy Prime Minister explain why, despite his pledge to widen access to internships, publicly funded museums and galleries took on close to 800 unpaid interns in the past two years?
The Deputy Prime Minister
As the hon. Lady knows, the role of internships, which used to be informal—people did not really think that it mattered very much—has become much more important over the past five to 10 years. It has become a stepping stone for people’s subsequent success in finding real work, so it is right that she and others devote more attention to it. I was not aware of the figures that she has cited for unpaid internships in the museum sector which, as much as any other walk of life, must reflect hard on whether internships are being made fairly available to as many young people as possible.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
With regard to House of Lords reform, the Deputy Prime Minister said that it was a matter of principle that people who are unelected should not be able to set the laws of this country. Does that mean that he now believes that unelected and unaccountable European Commissioners should not have any role in initiating legislation that impacts on this country?
The Deputy Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman is nothing if not skilled in crowbarring the European Commission into almost any topic, and I congratulate him on doing so again. I do not think that the parallel is an exact one, because the European Commission can only propose legislation; adopting it, thankfully, is the role of elected Members of the European Parliament and elected Ministers in the Council of Ministers.
Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
The Deputy Prime Minister is on television almost every week talking about the influence of the Liberal Democrats within this coalition. I have an idea for him: why does he not do something useful for a change by having the guts to tell the Prime Minister to drop the dastardly Bill to privatise the health service and get in line with all those royal colleges and the British people who are calling for the same thing?
The Deputy Prime Minister
It is truly ironic that the hon. Gentleman gets on his high horse once again to talk about the private sector in the NHS when it was his Labour Government—I am not sure whether he had disowned them—who crowbarred into the NHS sweetheart deals with the private sector that were deliberately designed to undermine the publicly owned parts. Some £250 million of taxpayers’ money was wasted by his colleagues in government on private sector contracts that delivered nothing. It is this coalition Government—two parties coming together—who are making privatisation by the back door illegal.
Mr Speaker
I call Zac Goldsmith—[Interruption.] Order. The House must calm down. Let us hear Mr Goldsmith.
Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)
The proposals for a register of lobbyists will require lobby groups to list their members, but when those groups meet Ministers, will they be required to list on whose behalf they are meeting them?
The Deputy Prime Minister
As my hon. Friend will know, we are running a consultation on exactly those kinds of questions—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) says that it does not do that, but those are exactly the kinds of questions on which people can provide their views, and we will of course listen to all the views expressed.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
Given that satisfaction with the health service rose from 34% in 1997 to 70% in 2010, will the Deputy Prime Minister withdraw his comment that there was a mess to be cleared up and change his advice to the Prime Minister by encouraging him to drop the Health and Social Care Bill?
The Deputy Prime Minister
I was pointing out that the Labour party’s position now, if I understand it correctly, is to remove the freedom of hospitals to be financially viable, thus condemning them to having to make £20 billion of savings. Guess who announced those huge savings that need to be made in the NHS? The Labour Government. The Labour party has no plans for how hospitals should make those savings and still will make no commitment to providing real-terms increases for the NHS of the sort we are making. I do not think we need to take any lessons on the NHS from the Labour party.
Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)
I welcome the idea of a statutory register of lobbyists, but will the Deputy Prime Minister ensure that the definition of lobbyist will not deter charities or businesses wishing to invest in an area from being able to approach their MP frankly and openly?
The Deputy Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a good point. It is very important that we get the balance right so that we can ensure that there is more transparency in the way lobbying is conducted, but in such a way that does not discourage people, organisations or charities from doing what they naturally want to do, which is to approach their MP and make their case. That is why we have crafted the consultation in exactly the terms we have.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
1. What recent discussions he has had with the Crown Prosecution Service on improving the effectiveness of rape prosecutions.
The Solicitor-General (Mr Edward Garnier)
I have regular discussions with the Director of Public Prosecutions on a range of criminal matters, including rape. The DPP, the Attorney-General and I take our duties in regard to rape prosecutions extremely seriously. The hon. Lady met the DPP in April last year to discuss rape prosecutions, and he wrote to her on 6 May setting out what the CPS is doing to improve the effectiveness of rape prosecutions.
Fiona Mactaggart
Last week the chief prosecutor for London, Alison Saunders, called on the Government to start a public debate to bust some of the myths about rape victims which prevent successful prosecutions. Will the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General agree to work with ministerial colleagues to begin a Government-led campaign to address the misrepresentations of and misconceptions about rape victims which get in the way of successful prosecutions?
The Solicitor-General
Of course we will. I am already a member of the inter-ministerial group on violence against women and girls, and as I indicated a moment ago I take my responsibilities with regard to the prosecution of rape cases extremely seriously. I have personally appeared in a number of applications to the Court of Appeal, dealing with unduly lenient sentences passed in relation to rape victims. We want to improve the attrition rate and the conviction rate, and the hon. Lady can be assured that this Government and these Law Officers are fully behind that momentum.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
On the prosecution of sexual offences, the number of child sexual offences reported to the police last year was about 17,000, and the number of prosecutions was about 4,000. Does the Solicitor-General know the reason for that gap?
The Solicitor-General
I do not know—I have no empirical evidence that I can deploy this afternoon—but clearly there is an absence, often in such cases, of evidence that has reached the state in which it can be taken to court. My hon. Friend will know from his practice at the Bar that it is essential that we have adducible evidence to put before the court. Without evidence, we cannot prosecute.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
2. What steps he is taking to increase the number of convictions for human trafficking.
The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve)
The Crown Prosecution Service is working with law enforcement agencies and others in the UK, as well as in source countries, to improve the investigation and prosecution of those involved in human trafficking. The CPS is also encouraging victims of human trafficking to support criminal proceedings.
Andrew Selous
To what extent are prosecutors and police alert to the fact that British citizens are being trafficked both within the UK, as was uncovered shockingly in my constituency last September, and from the UK, as we learned earlier this month?
The Attorney-General
We are very much aware that this is a problem, but part of the difficulty is that trafficking for forced labour is notoriously difficult to establish, and often the victims will not come forward. That said, as my hon. Friend will be aware, there is now a national referral mechanism that alerts the police at neighbourhood level, the UK Border Agency, social services and charitable organisations as to how they can pick up such information and feed it into the specialist units of the police, which can then bring in the Crown Prosecution Service to try to deal with those matters.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
If the Government are serious about more prosecutions and, indeed, about preventing trafficking, should we not substantially increase the UK Border Agency’s strength, with many more properly based staff so that they can do the job?
The Attorney-General
As the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, with my hat on as superintendent of the Crown Prosecution Service, it would be easy for me to ask for extra resources in all directions outside my own Department, but if he thinks that there are specific instances in which the service may be in some way deficient he should, I suggest, bring them to my attention or to that of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. The evidence that I have from the Crown Prosecution Service is that it receives very good co-operation from the agencies with which it deals.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
I thought that the Government were carrying out a review of human trafficking sentences, with a view to reporting to Parliament by now on the changes that would make conviction easier. When is that report going to be published?
The Attorney-General
I am not in a position to give my hon. Friend a precise date. What I suggest, as he will appreciate that the issue is outside my departmental area, is that I write to him when I have ascertained whether we have further detailed information on it.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
Surely we are going to get many more convictions only if there is much more effective co-operation between prosecutors and police in this country and elsewhere. Given that many such gangs are elsewhere in the European Union, is not the European arrest warrant a vital part of the necessary armoury? Will the Attorney-General tell his Back Benchers that he is not going to step outside the European arrest warrant, even if they want to do so?
The Attorney-General
I have no doubt at all that mechanisms for co-operation throughout the European Union and, indeed, elsewhere can be very useful in the apprehension of criminals, particularly in this field. How that should best be carried out is, if I may say to the hon. Gentleman, ultimately I suppose a matter for this House, if it ever comes up for review.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
3. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for the Home Department and the director of the Serious Fraud Office on the capacity and effectiveness of organisations tackling economic crime.
The Solicitor-General (Mr Edward Garnier)
The Attorney-General and I hold regular meetings with the director of the Serious Fraud Office, at which we discuss all aspects of its work, including individual cases and the development of deferred prosecution agreements as an additional weapon in our criminal justice armoury. We also hold regular meetings with the Home Secretary and her Ministers, but there have been no recent discussions on economic crime. I remind the hon. Lady of the Home Office paper entitled “The National Crime Agency: A plan for the creation of a national crime-fighting capability”, which was published in June 2011. The NCA will include an economic crime command.
Valerie Vaz
I thank the Solicitor-General for his answer. Given that the Serious Fraud Office is facing cuts of 23% and that the Law Society Gazette has reported on deferred prosecution agreements, will he update the House generally on those agreements? Specifically, will they be available for the public so that those dealing with companies that are subject to such agreements can see that?
The Solicitor-General
When DPAs come into the criminal justice system in this country, they will be available to the public in the sense that they will be operated by the director of the Serious Fraud Office, who is a public prosecutor. I am not sure that I can help the hon. Lady much further than that. The matter is under discussion and we are developing it within Government. Further announcements will be made just as soon as we are ready.
Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)
Given that when investigating the failure of RBS, Adair Turner concluded that the FSA has little power under the existing rules to take action against individuals associated with the banking crisis; that the director of the SFO believes that
“things have got to change”;
and that we are still waiting for anyone in the UK to be prosecuted in relation to the global financial crisis, will the Solicitor-General use his best efforts to persuade the Attorney-General to look again at introducing a crime of corporate negligence so that prosecutors have a full range of weapons in their armoury to use in future against reckless financiers?
The Solicitor-General
The Attorney-General and I always use our best efforts. The development of the criminal law is within the remit of the Ministry of Justice. I am sure that the hon. Lady will address her remarks, via the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), to that Department.
Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)
4. What steps he is taking to promote reform of the European Court of Human Rights.
The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve)
I am working closely with the Foreign Secretary and the Justice Secretary, and talking to many member states and to key figures in the Court and the Council of Europe. Only last week, I spoke at the seminar on court reform for European civil society organisations. There is a keen appetite for reform of the Court and we are confident that we can gain agreement on a reform package.
Nigel Adams
There is an incredible backlog of 150,000 cases. Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that that undermines the Court’s ability to perform its role efficiently, and that something needs to be done soon to improve that efficiency?
The Attorney-General
Yes, there is no doubt about that. The Court itself knows that. Some efforts have been made to reduce the backlog, particularly by streamlining the sitting hours of completely hopeless applications. The problem remains that there is a large number of cases that is in excess of the number of cases that can be heard each year. It is for those reasons that the United Kingdom, as part of its reform package, has asked those who are interested to examine how principles of subsidiarity can be introduced so that fewer cases have to be considered by the Court, with cases instead being resolved properly at national level wherever possible.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
Does the Attorney-General not consider that there is a strong argument for fast-tracking certain cases, for example cases of national security, through the European Court? We will hear later about the case of Abu Qatada. That is an example of how it takes a long time to get a decision out of the European Court.
The Attorney-General
The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I have no doubt that things could be done better. The Court already has a system of prioritisation. I have no doubt that the reform process will look at whether the Court can do better in identifying cases of particular importance. As he is aware from remarks that I have made on another occasion, the length of time that someone may be detained in custody while a case is being considered at the European Court of Human Rights level is something to which great consideration should be given.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
I welcome the efforts that Ministers are making. Is there an appetite among the mature democracies, as the Attorney-General indicated, to ensure that the Court gives priority to cases of gross abuses of human rights, rather than to the refinement of the law in countries that have well-developed human rights?
The Attorney-General
I am sure that my right hon. Friend’s sentiments would be echoed by most member states that are asking for reform to take place. At the same time, I want to make it clear that any reform package must still leave autonomy for the European Court of Human Rights. Its own processes must be reformed, and it must have control of them. Those issues are being examined, and I hope that the reform package that we will initiate will make a real and substantial difference to how the Court can approach its work load and continue doing its important work.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
In his reforms to the European Court of Human Rights, will the Attorney-General ensure that we do not end up by default making it much more difficult for people bringing human rights abuse cases from, say, Russia, Hungary or other places where there are serious abuses of human rights, by pushing them back to the national jurisdiction? The influence of the Court can be a force for good and help to curtail some of the most vile human rights abuses that are taking place across Europe.
The Attorney-General
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that we share his view that the Court has been of immense benefit in member states across the European continent in improving human rights standards. In that context, as I have indicated, there can be no suggestion that the right of personal petition, for example, should be removed. Although we need to ensure that the Court keeps its autonomy, there is widespread acknowledgment that there must be reform if it is to continue doing its work properly.
Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab)
5. What recent discussions he has had with the Crown Prosecution Service on the progress made by the Leveson inquiry.
The Solicitor-General (Mr Edward Garnier)
None, save that the Director of Public Prosecutions has informed me recently that he has been asked to give evidence to the inquiry.
Mr Watson
Eighteen months ago, Alison Levitt, QC, was tasked with a review of the previous evidence from the 2006 hacking case. Will her conclusions be shared with Lord Leveson, and can they also be shared, maybe in a redacted form, with members of the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport, who are conducting an inquiry on the matter at the moment?
The Solicitor-General
That must be a matter for the Director of Public Prosecutions and Ms Levitt.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
Is it not the case that public confidence in both the Crown Prosecution Service and the police is absolutely vital? If so, does the Solicitor-General share my concern about the fact that we have had many arrests of journalists under Operation Elveden but only two arrests of police officers, and that the names of those police officers have remained unpublished? There seems to be one rule for the police and another rule for journalists.
The Solicitor-General
There is also another rule that the Law Officers do not tell the police what to do. It is entirely a matter for the police to deal with arrests. If matters come to their attention that need the advice of the Crown Prosecution Service, which the Attorney-General and I superintend, we will no doubt examine them.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
One issue that will arise in this context is contempt of court and the extent to which the media need to be controlled. I was rather disappointed to hear the Attorney-General’s responses on Radio 4 this morning. Would the Solicitor-General like to make it absolutely clear to the entire nation that, notwithstanding the rights and wrongs of particular cases, it is possible to commit contempt on Twitter?
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
7. What recent assessment he has made of the management and disclosure of evidence by the Crown Prosecution Service.
Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)
9. What recent assessment he has made of the management and disclosure of evidence by the Crown Prosecution Service.
The Solicitor-General (Mr Edward Garnier)
The effective management and disclosure of evidence relies on the proper discharge of duties and obligations by both the police and the prosecutor. Although there have been failures in a small number of cases, in the vast majority of cases the disclosure duties are carried out well.
As the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) will know, there is currently an inquiry into the Lynette White case in south Wales, more properly called the Crown v. Mouncher and others. The Independent Police Complaints Commission is carrying out a review of police conduct in that case, and the Director of Public Prosecutions has separately and additionally asked the inspectorate of the Crown Prosecution Service to carry out a review of the actions and decision making of the CPS in relation to disclosure in that case.
Nick Smith
It took nearly 10 years and cost the taxpayer about £30 million to bring eight former South Wales police officers to court on charges of perverting the course of justice and fabricating evidence. The case collapsed when the key documents were thought destroyed, but they have now been found. I thank the Attorney-General for his answer, but what assessment has the CPS made of the prospects of a future prosecution?
The Solicitor-General
It will not make an assessment until the two inquiries are completed.
Ann Clwyd
I echo what my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) has said: there is considerable shock at the conduct of this case, in south Wales and elsewhere. In the past, there have been a particularly high number of miscarriages of justice under the South Wales police force. Is the Attorney-General aware of any other similar cases in which the disappearance and re-emergence of key evidence has led to a retrial?
The Solicitor-General
Off the top of my head, I am not aware of any such cases, but the right hon. Lady is right to point out that the collapse of the Lynette White case in south Wales just recently, which affects her constituents and neighbours and those of the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith), is a matter of huge regret. It is now being subjected to two inquiries. Once they have been completed, further announcements will be made.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
Is not the lesson of the disclosure debacle in the Lynette White case this: when criminal allegations are made against police officers in one police force, disclosure should be handled by officers from an entirely independent police force? Will my hon. and learned Friend do all he can to ensure that such reforms take place so that such a disaster does not happen again?
The Solicitor-General
Clearly—particularly in large and complex cases such as the one we are talking about—the need to get disclosure right is key. That is also true, however, in what one might call less serious cases—although I do not want to be misunderstood when I use that adjective. My hon. Friend’s point about other police forces dealing with the disclosure in such cases must, surely, be a matter for the chief constable of the relevant police area. I have no doubt that the Home Secretary, who is sitting beside me, will bear that in mind in due course.
Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)
8. What discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on reform of extradition law.
The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve)
The matter is being actively considered by the Government, led by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
Mrs Glindon
Will the Government wait for the outcome of the Liberal Democrats’ review of the extradition law before making a decision on the coalition Government’s change to that law?
The Attorney-General
My understanding is that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is currently giving careful consideration to the recommendations of the independent extradition review panel. She wants to discuss the Government’s proposed response to those recommendations with Cabinet colleagues before announcing to Parliament what action the Government will take. In reaching a decision on what the Government propose to do, she will also take into account the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights on extradition and the representations made by Members of the House during recent debates.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
A recent motion in this House called for the extradition treaty to be redrafted to enable the Government to refuse extradition requests if UK prosecutors have decided against beginning proceedings at home. What progress is being made on that?
The Attorney-General
As my right hon. Friend will be aware, the review is being led by the Home Office and it might therefore be best if my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary answered his question. The entire package being considered by the Government will take into account all representations made in coming to a decision.
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
10. What recent assessment he has made of the implications for his policies of the successful application by the Serious Fraud Office to confiscate dividends paid by companies convicted of bribery.
The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve)
The Government are committed to protecting and building on the reputation of UK business. The recent use of the civil recovery process to recover shared dividend payments derived through contracts won through unlawful conduct reinforces that. The actions of the Serious Fraud Office send a clear message to shareholders and investors, particularly institutional investors, that they must satisfy themselves that the business practices of the companies in which they invest are legal and ethical. The Serious Fraud Office has signalled its intention rigorously to pursue similar civil recovery actions, where appropriate, in the future.
Mr Slaughter
It is good to see the Attorney-General being tough on bribery and he might want to have a word with the Justice Secretary about that. He will be aware that in the Mabey Holdings case, the director of the SFO said that
“the shareholder was totally unaware of…inappropriate behaviour.”
Will it be common practice for lay shareholders and pension funds to be penalised for the fraudulent activities of companies which, by definition, they will not know about, as bribery is not generally advertised?
The Attorney-General
I think it is right to say that in the case of Mabey Engineering, the company that held the dividends was a subsidiary company—that is, a holding company held the dividends. That said, I cannot give the hon. Gentleman any specific assurance as we will consider the matter on a case-by-case basis. The principle of the possibility of taking back dividends that have been paid wrongly, as they are the fruit of bribery and corruption, must clearly be kept in mind.
Petition
(12 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
The petition is from my constituents in north Hull, who are concerned about cuts to police in Humberside. I would like to mention in particular Demelza France, a shop worker who collected names at her workplace.
The petition states:
The Petition of residents of Hull,
Declares that the Petitioners believe that the Government has a duty to protect citizens from crime; that the significant increase in police officers over the past ten years has helped reduce crime and make people feel safer; notes that under Government proposals the police budget will be cut by 20%, that over 16,000 police officers will be lost and that for Humberside Police Force cuts will be even greater than the national average, with a 25% reduction in the police budget; further notes that Humberside Police Force is projected to have 250 fewer police officers in March 2012 than in March 2010; and declares that the Petitioners believe that this will hamper the efforts of the police to prevent crime and keep citizens safe.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to support the work of the police in ensuring that the downward trend in overall crime continues by at least maintaining 2010 levels of uniformed police officers in England and Wales.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P001005]
Abu Qatada
(12 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department to update the House on the decision to release Abu Qatada on bail.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Since December 2001, successive British Governments have sought to deport Abu Qatada to Jordan, his home country, because he poses a serious risk to our national security. Qatada has a long-standing association with al-Qaeda. British courts have found:
“His reach and the depth of his influence…is formidable…He provides a religious justification for…acts of violence and terror”.
In Jordan, he has been tried and found guilty in absentia of terrorism offences including conspiracy to cause explosions at western and Israeli targets and involvement in the bombings of the American school and the Jerusalem hotel in Amman in 1998.
The House of Lords agreed with the Government that Qatada can be deported to Jordan to face a retrial because of the diplomatic assurances negotiated by Britain and the Jordanian Government. That agreement ensures that individuals deported to Jordan will not be tortured upon their return. Despite the House of Lords agreement that Qatada should be deported, and despite accepting that he would not face mistreatment in Jordan, the European Court of Human Rights ruled last month against his deportation. It did so on the grounds that deportation would violate article 6 of the convention, the right to a fair trial, due to the risk that evidence obtained from the torture of others would be used against him. Hon. Members should be aware that that argument had already been considered by a British court and rejected.
I hardly need tell the House that the Government disagree vehemently with Strasbourg’s ruling. We believe that Abu Qatada should be deported. We are considering all the legal options available, including whether to refer the case to the Grand Chamber. As we do so, we will continue to negotiate with the Jordanians to see what assurances they can give us about the evidence used against Qatada in their courts. Following the Strasbourg ruling, Qatada’s lawyers appealed to the Special Immigration Appeals Commission for bail. We opposed that appeal vigorously, but yesterday it was granted, and bail will start within a week.
The bail conditions are among the most stringent imposed on anybody facing deportation from the UK, and reflect the conditions set out when Qatada was bailed in 2008. He will be under a 22-hour curfew. He will not be allowed to access the internet or any electronic communication devices. He will not be allowed to travel outside an approved boundary. Visitors will need to be approved, under very strict conditions. He will be subject to a specific condition preventing him from attending mosques and leading group prayer. If any of those conditions are breached, he will be re-arrested and we will seek his immediate re-detention. But however strict the bail conditions, I continue to believe that Qatada should remain behind bars.
It is simply not acceptable that after the Jordanians have guaranteed his treatment, after British courts have found that he is dangerous and after his removal has been approved by the highest courts in our land, we still cannot deport such a dangerous foreign national. We continue to consider the case for a British Bill of Rights, and the Prime Minister is leading the Government’s attempts to reform the European Court of Human Rights.
The right place for a terrorist is a prison cell. The right place for a foreign terrorist is a foreign prison cell, far away from Britain. That is why we will do everything that we can within the existing legal regime to deport Qatada, and we are doing everything that we can to reform that regime to avoid such cases in future.
Paul Goggins
I am grateful to the Home Secretary for her answer. She will understand, of course, that there is considerable concern throughout the House about yesterday’s decision. I appreciate, as do we all, that it places her in a difficult situation, but the public will want reassurance that the Government are doing everything possible to protect their safety.
First, can she offer any explanation why Mr Justice Mitting decided to bail Abu Qatada now, while an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights is still possible, rather than give notice that that would happen at some point in future if Ministers were ultimately unable to deport him? Will she say more about the discussions with the authorities in Jordan? Does she expect to receive assurances on the use of evidence, and if so, when? Given the urgency of the situation, will Ministers be directly involved in those discussions? Does she intend to make further representations to the Special Immigration Appeals Commission? Has Mr Justice Mitting indicated that he would be prepared to reconsider the three-month deadline for removing bail conditions if the Government received the necessary assurances and appealed against the ECHR ruling?
The public will be reassured by the fact that Home Office lawyers were successful in pressing SIAC to impose a 22-hour curfew on Abu Qatada. What arguments were advanced for that level of control, and how do they compare with the much-reduced arrangements that would be available if Abu Qatada were made subject to a terrorism prevention and investigation measure? Will the Home Secretary confirm that, under a TPIM, Abu Qatada would be entitled to a mobile phone and have access to the internet, that an overnight residence requirement would not exceed 16 hours, and that she would be unable to relocate him to another part of the country?
What additional costs will fall to the police and the Security Service as a result of the decision to grant Abu Qatada bail? Will the Home Secretary update the House on progress made since the Prime Minister’s recent speech in Strasbourg on the need to reshape the relationship between the ECHR and the UK’s own judicial system? Does she agree that it should be only in truly exceptional cases that a Supreme Court judgment can be challenged in the ECHR? Finally, does she agree that it is a good thing that indefinite detention without trial was ruled to be unlawful, but that the answer in Abu Qatada’s case is deportation, with assurances, to Jordan, not release into the community in Britain?
Mrs May
The right hon. Gentleman has raised several issues in his supplementary questions, some of which relate to the approach that Justice Mitting might take in certain circumstances, but obviously it is not for me to indicate what approach the judge would take. However, were assurances received from the Jordanian Government—we are working hard on that—obviously that would change the scenario and, by introducing a new factor, would enable the Government to take action that would, I think, change SIAC’s approach. If any case were to go before it again, though, it would be for it to determine.
The right hon. Gentleman referred to the work being done on the ECHR. As he will be aware, because of our chairmanship of the Council of Europe, we are in a position for six months to take action on this matter, and we are working actively with other countries with a similar interest in ensuring that the European Court acts as originally intended, which is as a Court considering the most serious issues and key points of human rights law, rather than as a body to which people automatically appeal once they have gone through national courts. That work is being actively led by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Justice. Furthermore, as I mentioned, the Prime Minister has been to Strasbourg, spoken on these matters and explained our position.
The right hon. Gentleman mentioned TPIMs and bail, but of course they are two separate matters—one should not conflate the two. The Home Office made vigorous representations to SIAC arguing that Abu Qatada should not be released on bail, but that were it to happen, the most stringent conditions should be applied. As I said, these are among the most stringent conditions applied to anybody we are currently unable to deport from the UK.
As the right hon. Gentleman said at the end, it is absolutely right that in this country we do not have indefinite detention without trial. However, everyone on both sides of the House wants to ensure that we can deport those who represent a danger to the United Kingdom and whom we believe should be deported. That is why we are considering our options within the legal process, and why we are negotiating with Jordanians on further assurances in order to deport Abu Qatada. However, it is also why we are working to make the changes in the European Court to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, and looking at the whole issue of assurances with other countries, to ensure that we strengthen our ability to deport people who are a danger to us.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
The Home Secretary has made a robust statement; the Prime Minister has made robust statements. Unfortunately, the declaration that she made some months ago—that we would repeal the Human Rights Act—is the remedy. I would like to know, and I would be grateful if the Home Secretary would say, whether she intends to carry through our commitment—her own statement that she would repeal the Human Rights Act—return the remedy to this House and pass the legislation necessary to get this right; otherwise it will be all talk and no action.
Mrs May
I have been used, over time in my political life, to words that I have said being taken slightly out of context. I said that it was my personal view that the Human Rights Act should be repealed, not that I was about to repeal it—which my hon. Friend sort of implied in his question. I would simply remind him that even if we were to repeal the Human Rights Act, we would of course still be subject to the European convention and the European Court.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
The Home Secretary has given a serious account of the risk from Abu Qatada. She will know that we agree that he should be deported, on the grounds of being a risk to national security. However, she has not said much about what she is doing now in response to the judgment. She is right to look at the legal options for appealing against the European Court judgment, but what more is she doing to get further assurances from Jordan so that he can be deported now? She will know that an agreement was reached by the British Government before the election, so it is possible to make diplomatic progress. We understand that the British ambassador has been in some discussions, but what actions have Ministers taken? Has the Home Secretary taken this up herself with the Jordanian Government? If she has not done so, will she do so now? If so, will she go back to SIAC to ask for a stay of the bail until those high-level discussions with the Jordanian Government have been completed, given the urgency and seriousness of this case?
On the second issue—protecting public safety in the meantime—it is unclear whether the Home Secretary is looking for more evidence to take to SIAC to overturn the bail decision. However, what will happen if the negotiations with Jordan fail and if the courts conclude that bail cannot be extended in three months’ time? Those are the circumstances that control orders were introduced to address, but her decision has been to weaken those counter-terror laws, and that will make it harder. Under the current system, if TPIMs have to be introduced after three months if bail is stopped, she will not be able to ask the courts for a curfew—only an overnight residence requirement—and she will have to provide access to the internet and telephones. She will not be able to ask the courts to relocate Abu Qatada outside London, should that be appropriate—during the Olympics, for example—nor will she be able to extend those restrictions for more than two years. The restrictions that the Home Secretary will have available to her in three months’ time are a far cry from the restrictions that she and the courts understandably believe are necessary now to protect the public, which include the 22-hour curfew, no access to the internet and no access to phones.
The Home Secretary cannot blame the European Court for her decision to weaken British counter-terror powers. The courts, the security experts and the Home Secretary have all made it clear that Abu Qatada is a continued threat to public safety and national security. We support her in her actions to protect the public and get the deportation in place, but she should be straining every sinew, on behalf of the public, to get him deported. If she cannot, she should make sure that we have the legislation and the safeguards in place to protect the public now.
Mrs May
I have to say to the shadow Home Secretary that she appears to have prepared her statement before listening to my answer, because I made it clear that I continue to believe that Qatada should face trial in Jordan and that the Government have begun discussions with the Jordanians to see what assurances we can secure about the quality of evidence used in their courts. We will be pursuing those discussions at every level that is appropriate to ensure that we work towards the aim that we share across the House: getting the assurances that will enable us to deport Abu Qatada. As I said, we will also consider the legal options that are available, including whether we should refer the case to the Grand Chamber, but we need to consider the consequences of those actions before we take a decision.
I referred, obviously, to the bail conditions that have been placed on Qatada, as the right hon. Lady did. I continue to believe that he should be behind bars. The bail conditions are among the most stringent on anybody facing deportation from Britain. She referred to the difference between TPIMs and control orders. I remind her that the bail conditions are stronger than would be possible under TPIMs or control orders. I also refer her to the wider point that I have made about TPIMs in the Chamber in the past, which is that the police and the Security Service are content with the package that was negotiated in relation to TPIMs and with the extra funding that has been made available to the Security Service and the police.
We should be able to deport Abu Qatada; that is the view across the whole House. He should be behind bars. Home Office Ministers and previous Home Secretaries under the previous Government have tried to do everything possible to get him to Jordan, and that is what this Government are trying to do. The case has been ongoing since 2001. In 2008, there was a brief period during which he was released on bail. We should send a clear message from across the House that we believe he should be deported, and this Government are doing what we can to ensure that we achieve that. That is what is right for the security of our citizens.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
What specific points does the Home Secretary believe still need to be negotiated with the Jordanians in order to allow Abu Qatada to be returned to Jordan?
Mrs May
The specific reason for the European Court finding against deportation was the question of whether the evidence that would be used against Abu Qatada in his retrial—he had been tried in absentia—had been obtained as a result of torture. That is the issue that was raised by the European Court, and that is the issue that we are addressing.
Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab)
In 2002, when Abu Qatada was eventually apprehended, he was in a flat about 400 yards away from MI5 headquarters, using what was then the most sophisticated electronic equipment to communicate his message. Given that the Home Secretary has said time and again this afternoon that the bail conditions are tough and would restrict him from being able to do that again, how can she possibly justify allowing a situation to arise at the end of April, with the Olympic games and the Queen’s jubilee taking place, in which terrorism prevention and investigation measures would come into effect that would do away with all the restrictions that she has set out in the bail conditions?
Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend accept that, in our unwritten constitution, there is a distinction between the rule of law and the tyranny of lawyers? Does she also accept that the interaction between the European Court of Human Rights and the ruling by Justice Mitting on the question of bail has created a dangerous situation in which millions of people in this country are starting to lose confidence in our legal system?
Mrs May
I do not believe that millions of people are losing confidence in our legal system. I believe that they are concerned about the ability of the European Court to come to decisions that we do not believe to be in the best interests of the United Kingdom. This decision on Abu Qatada is clearly a case in point. That is why it is important for the Government to pursue the work that we are doing, not only in looking into the possibility of a British Bill of Rights but in trying to make changes to the way in which the European Court operates, so that in future we will be able to deport people who present a danger to us.
Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)
The right hon. Lady’s peremptory answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) was simply not acceptable for a Home Secretary. My right hon. Friend asked her a very serious question, but she failed to give him any answer to it at all. All of us believe that Abu Qatada should be sent back to Jordan. Many of us, myself included, personally sought to negotiate with the Jordanians—unsuccessfully—to achieve that. If that cannot happen, however, and if the bail conditions lapse at the end of three months, will she accept that, on any analysis, the powers that she has put on to the statute book—these so-called TPIMs—are much weaker than the powers of the control orders that were in place and that worked satisfactorily in the past?
Mrs May
I will repeat the point I made in response to the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett)—that our work now is to try to get the assurances necessary to ensure that we could deport Abu Qatada, but also to look at the other available legal options, such as whether or not to refer the case to the Grand Chamber.
The right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) and many of his right hon. and hon. Friends have raised in the House on a number of occasions the issue of the conditions relating to TPIMs and I have every confidence that they will be raised again in future. I repeat the comments I made in response to the shadow Home Secretary, which I have made previously, that we have put together, from TPIMs and additional funding available to the Security Service and the police, the package that we believe is right and with which the police and the Security Service are content. Let me say to the right hon. Gentleman as I did to the shadow Home Secretary that the bail conditions applied in this case are more stringent than control orders, so even if control orders were in place, it would not be possible to apply the same conditions as have been made available under these bail conditions.
Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)
Signatories to the European convention on human rights, such as Italy, have simply ignored in exceptional circumstances rulings from the Court. Have Her Majesty’s Government considered that course of action in the Qatada case?
Mrs May
As I made clear in my earlier responses, we are looking at every option available to us under the current legal regime in order to deal with this issue. We wish to be able to deport Abu Qatada; we do not believe he should be in the United Kingdom, but we are looking at all options under the existing legal regime.
Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
The Home Secretary said quite rightly that she wishes to be in a position to deport Abu Qatada, but I am afraid that, much as we all might wish that, if it does not happen in three months’ time, the Home Secretary will face a serious choice. The bail conditions might well be relaxed, so the only choice she will have under current legislation would be to impose a TPIM. Time and again, we have seen that TPIMs do not have the measures necessary to give the British people the degree of security that they need. In this year, with the Olympics and the diamond jubilee and with half a dozen people on control orders coming back to London and being relocated, there is layer upon layer of risk. What steps is the right hon. Lady going to take to make sure that we can be assured of our safety and security?
Mrs May
I can assure the right hon. Lady that this Government place the security of this country and its people as their priority. That is why we have put in place a series of measures that we believe will satisfy that requirement. Right now, the Government’s intention is to work to try to achieve what the right hon. Lady has recognised that all of us want across the House when it comes to dealing with Abu Qatada.
Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con)
The European Court of Human Rights has yet again placed the Home Secretary and this Government in an extremely difficult position. In the short term at least, we are stuck with it, but can the right hon. Lady assure us that she will renegotiate not just with Jordan but with other countries that are subject to memorandums of understanding so that we can head these sorts of problem off—before they happen, not once they have happened?
Mrs May
Negotiations take place with a number of countries about the memorandums of understanding required to enable us to deport people so that we do not find ourselves unable to do so because of legal requirements. One important aspect of the Strasbourg Court’s decision in this case was that it supported the memorandum of understanding in respect of what would happen to Abu Qatada himself, were he to be returned to Jordan. In that sense, the memorandum of understanding was found to be workable by the Strasbourg court; access to a fair trial was the issue that it raised, but we will continue to be in negotiations with a number of countries where we feel it would be helpful to have such memorandums of understanding in place.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
The Home Secretary’s robust approach on this case mirrors that of previous Home Secretaries who have spoken today, but is there not a case for fast-tracking cases of national security through the European Court? The main complaint is that it took three years to pass from the House of Lords to the European Court. In cases like this, urgent action needs to be taken. Will the right hon. Lady confirm whether Sheikh Raed Saleh is still in the country?
Mrs May
The issue with the European Court is not so much one of whether certain cases should be fast-tracked; rather, the question we need to ask is which cases should be going through to the European Court. One issue we need to look at is the fact that when cases have gone through every single level of judicial consideration through national courts, appeal to the European Court is too often seen as a natural thing to happen at the end of the process. That contrasts with the original intention, which was about defining some very key points of law relating to human rights. That is the issue on which we need to focus.
Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)
Yet again, it seems that the rights of terrorists trump the universal right of people in this country to feel that they have safety on their side. This must be costing some police force an enormous amount of resources. Would it not be better to allocate one police officer to go with Mr Qatada and hold his hand throughout the time he is in Jordan than to allocate someone to hold his hand here when he will potentially walk out of the door three months later?
Mrs May
As I said in answer to an earlier question, the European Court has upheld the memorandum of understanding on the basis of assurances in relation to the treatment of Abu Qatada himself were he to be returned to Jordan. The issue it has raised is that of a fair trial, and concerns the evidence that has been obtained from others and whether that evidence was obtained with or without torture.
Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)
Does the Home Secretary agree that this case reflects a wider problem? Courts, whether in Europe or here, often weigh the integrity of their own proceedings against national security. Is it not now necessary for us to make absolutely clear how important national security is, and that it should be given priority? Should we not also make that absolutely clear in legislative terms?
Mrs May
The right hon. Gentleman has made an interesting point about the balance between judicial proceedings and the consideration of those proceedings, and the interests of national security. If I may say so, I think it possible that those who have been in the Home Office are often more acutely sensitive than others to the fact that the balance sometimes goes in a direction that we do not feel gives sufficient weight to issues of national security. However, as we try to bring 46 other countries along with us in our attempt to introduce some reform to the European Court, we shall need to examine exactly what sort of cases should be going there.
Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)
The Qatada case highlights wider chinks in our security strategy. It is a fact that the number of terrorism convictions has plummeted by 100% in the last four years. Will my right hon. Friend consider lifting the ban on intercept evidence so that we can prosecute more of these terrorists? Will she also consider amending the UK Borders Act 2007 to strengthen our capacity to deport, which we can do without touching the Human Rights Act? Above all, does not the Qatada ruling show that it is time for Britain to say no to Strasbourg?
Mrs May
Of course we are always in the business of considering what measures we can take to ensure that we can strengthen our ability to deal with potential terrorists. As for the issue of intercept evidence, we are still pursuing it, the advisory council of Privy Counsellors is considering it again, and it has been considered by successive Governments. It is a complex issue, but that work continues while we try to establish whether there is a way in which it would be possible to introduce intercept as evidence.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
This person is clearly motivated by murderous hatred—there is no doubt about that—but can the Home Secretary answer this question? He has been here for some 16 or 17 years. If there is evidence that he was inciting murder, why was he not charged? Would that not have been the most appropriate way of dealing with this fanatic?
Mrs May
In all cases relating to terrorists, potential terrorists or those who are inciting others, our preference is always to be able to prosecute, and for those people to be behind bars. That is why all cases are looked at very carefully, and, obviously, the appropriate judgments are made.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
Does the Home Secretary not accept that the British Government are now in a rather pathetic, humiliating situation? A proud, sovereign country cannot deport foreign terrorists. It is no good the Home Secretary simply huffing and puffing about the decision. What the British public want to know is this: if we cannot secure the reforms that we need from the European Court of Human Rights, will we withdraw from the European convention? In the absence of that commitment, the Home Secretary will simply be spitting in the wind.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
What message does the Home Secretary think the Court’s decision sends to other terrorists who pose a threat to the safety and security of the United Kingdom?
Mrs May
One of the important messages comes from part of the Court’s decision, which is that where we have memorandums of understanding in relation to the treatment of individuals, that was upheld by the European Court. That is an important part of the judgment. Obviously, as I have said we vehemently disagree with the other part of the Court’s judgment in relation to the issue of a fair trial, which is why we continue to do what all hon. Members have said they want, which is to see if there are ways we can move to Abu Qatada’s deportation.
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
My right hon. Friend referred to the current legal framework. Will she confirm that it is open to Parliament to change this legal framework, and would it therefore be possible to repeal any rights of the European Court to interfere in our affairs and to return this matter to British courts—and could a Bill to achieve this be introduced tomorrow?
Mrs May
We are signatories to the European convention on human rights, and we remain signatories to that convention. That has been the policy across Governments in this country. As I have said in response to a number of questions, we are doing what we can at this time, with our chairmanship of the Council of Europe, to bring change to the way the European Court operates.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
Is it true, as some press reports suggest, that, despite the stringent bail conditions, this individual will enjoy the privilege of a daily school run? If that is the case, what steps are in place to offer protection and reassurance to innocent parents and their children who may inadvertently find themselves forced into contact with this man?
Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that we have now reached the point where the vast majority of people right across the country are saying, “Enough is enough”? While we understand the difficulties the Home Secretary faces with the European convention on human rights, the Human Rights Act and so forth, will she reassure the House that the Government will use its presidency of the Council of Europe to seek to reform the European Court of Human Rights?
Mrs May
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who in a nice way points out that I referred to our chairmanship of the Council of Europe when I should have referred to our presidency. I can absolutely assure her that we are putting considerable effort into the possibility of reform of the European Court and the way it operates. As my hon. Friend will know, the Prime Minister went to Strasbourg and gave a speech to assure people of the reasons why we feel that is necessary. We are, of course, working to bring the other 46 countries along with us in achieving what I am sure all Members want: appropriate reform of the Court.
Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)
May I compare this case to that of my constituent, Michael Turner, who under a European arrest warrant spent four months in jail in Hungary, without charge, for alleged fraud? Does the Qatada case show that there is one rule for fanatical terrorists and quite another for British citizens?
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
For people watching the news bulletins tonight, it will be both depressing and alarming that once again the European Court of Human Rights is undermining British justice and British national security. Is it not time that the United Kingdom temporarily suspended its membership of the European convention and European Court pending the reforms my right hon. Friend has set out today, and then once those reforms are in place go back into the convention and the Court? Will she set out a timetable for those reforms?
Mrs May
We have the opportunity, particularly with the six-month presidency of the Council of Europe, to bring other countries around the table to discuss the possibility of reform and we hope to achieve agreement on reforms that might be possible. We should be putting our energies into looking at how the European Court operates and at reasonable reform of how it operates.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
Does the Home Secretary agree that entrenching the convention by the Human Rights Act was a catastrophic error on the part of the previous Labour Government? Will she set out a process that she will follow to take us towards a British Bill of Rights?
Mrs May
I have made my views on the Human Rights Act clear, but I also point out that even before that Act we were signatories to the European convention and subject to the European Court of Human Rights. On the process of reforms towards a possible Bill of Rights, a commission is examining a possible UK Bill of Rights. It was set up by my right hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary and the Deputy Prime Minister, and I believe that it is due to report before the end of this year.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
How are the bail conditions going to be enforced? How much will their enforcement, and any benefits that this individual will be entitled to, cost the British taxpayer?
Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con)
This individual supports terrorists who want to kill our children. Regardless of what somebody says in Strasbourg, we must protect the human rights of the good people of this country, so I ask the Home Secretary to take the lead and put this man on a plane to Jordan.
Mrs May
I believe the feeling of the whole House is the same as that of my hon. Friend, in that we all want to be able to deport Abu Qatada. That is why the Government are making every effort to negotiate with the Jordanians to see whether it is possible to put in place the assurances that would enable that to happen.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
Surely this international law is an ass. It is clear that this man is a terrorist and he laughs at our weakness. He considers that he is at war with us—that is what he thinks. In wartime conditions, our Government can take extraordinary actions, so surely he should not come out of prison. If we cannot send him to Jordan now, he should stay in prison until we can send him there.
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
James Adams, a decent, gentle, law-abiding constituent of mine, was murdered by Islamist terrorists on 7/7, and my constituents will be appalled and disgusted by this judgment of the Court. Following on from the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard), is it possible that the Home Secretary could consider the efficacy of doing what Sweden did and suspending our membership of the European convention on human rights?
Mrs May
Of course everybody in this country—everybody who wants to ensure that we can deport those who are a danger to us here in the United Kingdom—will be appalled by the decision that was taken by the Strasbourg Court. As I have said, we are doing everything we can to examine the legal options available to us. I continue to say that I believe it is right that we should be working to reform the European Court of Human Rights, and to do that we need to get the support of all of the other 46 countries involved.
Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con)
We cannot currently repeal the Human Rights Act because the Liberal Democrats will not let us. However, so many Labour Members are running in the police elections that, come November—if they all win—it is possible that we may have a Conservative-Democratic Unionist party majority. Will we use it?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend is well aware of the position set out in our manifestos at the last election, but he is also well aware that the coalition Government have agreed that we will look at a British Bill of Rights. That work is being done by the commission and, as I said in response to an earlier question from another hon. Friend, I expect it to report by the end of the year.
Mr Speaker
Order. These hypothetical ruminations are always very enjoyable, but perhaps we can return to the subject of Abu Qatada. I know I can rely on Mr Henry Smith to do that.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
Is not the absurdity of the European Court of Human Rights such that Abu Qatada could even challenge his stringent bail conditions, and does that not mean that we really should be moving towards a British Bill of Rights?
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
I joined many Members in this Chamber last year in voting to continue the ban on prisoners getting the vote. Could my right hon. Friend confirm to all my constituents, many of whom have been getting in touch with me today, what the sanctions would be if we just ignored the European Court and put national security first? If it were to be a fine, I personally would put £50 in the pot to help pay it off.
Mrs May
I have noted my hon. Friend’s suggestion that he could come forward with a sum of money of the sort he has described. It is right that the Government look at operating within the legal framework open to us and that we look at the legal options available, which include whether we should refer to the Grand Chamber of the Strasbourg Court. Also, on the other side, it is right that we continue the negotiations with the Jordanians. His constituents, mine and others across the country wish to see Abu Qatada deported and the Government will do what they can to see whether we can get to a position where that is possible.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend accept that article 17 of the European convention says explicitly that human rights law should never be used to defend those aiming
“at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms…in the Convention”
such as the activities of Abu Qatada? Article 16 makes it clear that Governments can restrict the political activity of foreign nationals in self-defence, and the Jordanian hate-preacher Abu Qatada is a clear case of that. Does she agree that it was never the intention of the framers of the European convention, which was founded to avoid a repeat of the horrors of Nazi Germany, to let the poison of Islamist terrorists go free?
Mrs May
I agree with my hon. Friend that the way in which the European Court operates is not how it was originally intended to operate. That is precisely why we are looking at possible reform and, as I have said, discussing with the other countries involved whether that reform would be possible in a way that enables us to be in a better position in future to deport those who are a danger to us.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
We have a vicious, nasty terrorist, we have the Supreme Court, which says, “Send him home,” and we have a friendly Government. We also have a gutsy Home Secretary, who has listened to what Parliament has said today. She could become a national hero if, when she left the Chamber she picked up the phone and ordered that he be sent back to Jordan tonight.
Mrs May
I am always grateful for my hon. Friend’s contributions to these debates but as I have said, the right course for the Government to take at this time is to pursue negotiations with the Jordanians to see whether we can receive the assurances that would enable us to deport Abu Qatada, at the same time as looking at our legal options.
Offshore Gambling (Licensing)
(12 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con)
I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Gambling Act 2005 to regulate remote gambling on a point of consumption basis; to require all operators selling into the British market, whether in the United Kingdom or overseas, to hold a Gambling Commission licence to enable them to undertake transactions with British consumers and to advertise in the United Kingdom; to provide that all relevant operators contribute to the Horserace Betting Levy; and for connected purposes.
I am proud to stand in the House to represent the global headquarters of horse racing. For centuries, Newmarket has been at the heart of that great sport. From the time when the merry monarch moved his court twice a year to gamble on the races, to modern times when the jobs of 5,000 of my constituents are linked to racing, the story of Newmarket has been, and remains, interwoven with the story of racehorses.
I declare an interest. I am widely supported by the racing industry, including as declared in my entry in the register, and I am an unwavering supporter of racing.
As the presence of so many Members in the Chamber shows, the issue is not just about Newmarket. Attendance at horse racing is second only to football. British racing is among the best in the world; our blood stock is the best in the world. More than 6 million people, from every walk of life, visit British race courses every year; £10 billion is placed in bets, £300 million is paid in taxes and 100,000 people are employed by the racing industry nationwide.
This great sport is under threat. Racing has suffered a devastating fall in funding. The horse-racing levy—the annual payment from betting to racing in return for the product on which so many bets are placed—has declined from more than £100 million in 2009 to less than £60 million last year. Prize money, the lifeblood of the sport, has fallen by half in two years. Even second place will no longer cover the cost of diesel to many of our smaller fixtures. The number of mares in foal is declining and more of our best stock is sent overseas for training, especially to France.
Race courses, trainers, jockeys and staff are struggling, and livelihoods are under threat, but with attendances at courses at record levels, why is there that decline? It is because since 2007, 18 of our 20 biggest bookmakers have moved offshore, so according to bookmakers’ own estimates they avoid £300 million in tax and tens of millions in contribution to the levy. As punters increasingly go online, that avoidance is set to grow. Offshore bookmakers also fall outside UK consumer protection rules and stifle competition from those who remain onshore. Smaller independent bookies lose out, as do responsible bookmakers who remain onshore, such as Bet365 and Coral. In their correspondence with me, independents despair that there is no level playing field. Why should they pay the tax and full levy when the big boys do not?
Offshore bookmakers tell me that they are only offshore because their competitors are, so I shall take them at their word. Let us have a level playing field, efficiently enforced right here in the UK. How should it be done? What is the proposed solution?
There is now broad consensus in the House and outside that the levy system is broken. It has failed to keep up with the times and it should be replaced with a commercially sensitive alternative, such as a racing right. Instead of the antagonism generated by the levy system, gambling and racing can work together to their mutual benefit. As Paul Bittar, the impressive new chief executive of the British Horseracing Authority has set out, the new system must be sustainable, able to adapt to ever-changing technology and to the rapid channel shift towards online and smartphone betting. Of course, those wider reforms must also encompass betting exchanges. After all, a bet is a bet whether one side is a company or another punter.
The basis of any commercial arrangement must be a level playing field for bookmakers—onshore paying tax. That is what the simple change in the Bill would bring about. It would not solve all the problems of the world, but it would have a big effect. It would define the location of the bet as not where the bookie is but where the punter is. Technically, gambling licences would be provided on the basis of point of consumption, not point of sale. A bookmaker who wants to market to British punters and take bets from them must be licensed by the Gambling Commission. Tax and levy would be paid. It is a simple change with a big effect. There are two concerns that I want to tackle head-on. First, some say that bringing bookies onshore would drive punters to unlicensed sites. Hold on: most sites are already offshore, outside full regulation. That, indeed, is part of the problem, so the Bill would bring the vast majority of bookmakers back onshore. Offshore bookmakers could not advertise and would face prosecution.
I am a practical man. Let us not make the best the enemy of the good. Just because we cannot do everything does not mean that we should do nothing. Indeed, the argument about leakage shows just how important it is that the onshore rule is enforced properly. I say, yes, there is concern about leakage: let us ban offshore gambling effectively. Others make the objection that the 15% tax rate is too high, and should be cut—we should use the carrot, not the stick—and I think there is merit in that argument. I am in favour of lower taxes, and no tax should be punitive. I say, yes, there is a tax rate that is fair to racing, bookmakers and the Treasury. It is not zero, and the Bill should be the first step in finding it.
British horse racing has a proud history, and a broad and passionate following. For generations, it has been the best in the world, attracting talent from around the world, and it is the envy of the world. At this moment—the moment of Frankel, Kauto Star and Her Majesty’s own Carlton House—when the glittering sport of racing is at its best, we should look to the future with optimism and hope, yet optimism there is not, because the sport’s financial currents are on a rip tide. However, there is hope. It begins with this Bill. The support of the House would give this finest of sports, the sport that we love, hope to compete in the world, hope that jobs can be saved and our heritage enhanced, and hope for a bright future. I commend the motion to the House.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
I should begin by declaring an interest as a racehorse owner and breeder. Despite that, I oppose the Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock). I do not quibble with his argument on a point-of-consumption tax on principle. My objection is that it addresses the wrong issue. In practice, the matter is far more complex and the measure is doomed to fail if it does not address the issue of tax.
As my hon. Friend knows full well as a Government insider, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and the Treasury are already looking at the key issues. In July last year, the Government announced a proposal to regulate the remote gambling industry on a point-of-consumption basis to enhance the protection and regulation offered to UK online customers. Following that proposal, the Treasury announced its intention to review the taxation regime for remote gambling to bring it into line with the basis of regulation for the industry.
My hon. Friend is clearly a champion of the racing industry, so I am surprised by his unquestioning enthusiasm for the measure. He said that the levy had declined, which it has, but he failed to mention that bookmakers are paying more and more every year in picture rights. The combined amount of the levy and picture rights means that bookmakers are paying more than ever for their racing product, despite its being less and less of the bets that they take. A funding deal is being negotiated, and if betting firms have to pay more than they can afford, there will be a decline in their operating profits and in what they can pay to racing.
The idea that the Bill would enhance UK consumer protection is absolute nonsense. The British market is one of the most highly regulated markets in the world, and therefore one of the most protected. If we look at the white list—my hon. Friend said that businesses offshore were unregulated; they are not, as they all have to be on that list—the whole point is to ensure that the UK accepts only countries that have similarly rigorous levels of protection. If I accepted his insistence that this was a matter of regulation rather than taxation, I would regard the Bill as a solution looking for a problem, but I can tell him that it would reduce consumer protection if enacted.
A Deloitte report, “The impact of a point of consumption tax on the remote gambling industry”, published in December 2011, concluded that
“given the low returns that a significant proportion of the smaller operators currently earn, even relatively low levels of POC tax could force some of the smaller firms to exit the online gambling market.”
Therefore, a 15% point-of-consumption tax would increase the risk to punters in an otherwise well regulated and safe market, as bookmakers would be forced to exit the UK market and less compliant operators remaining outside the tax net would still target UK customers.
The Deloitte report cautions against any point-of-consumption tax, which is interesting in itself, but clearly states that a 5% tax
“would distort competition, leading to as much as 13% of UK online gambling… moving into the grey market.”
A 10% rate of tax would see 27% of gambling move into the grey market, and a 15% rate would see 40% of punters seek a competitive offering in the black and grey markets, thereby defeating the Government’s stated policy objective of increasing customer protection.
Regulating markets in the way my hon. Friend proposes is proving extremely difficult for Governments around the world. Some have tried internet blocking and some have focused on banning financial transactions to illegal sites, but they have all been spectacularly unsuccessful; that applies not only to the gambling sector, but to other sectors. Since the Italian market was subjected to a high-level tax regime, illegal gambling in Italy is now believed to be worth between €12 billion and €20 billion a year in turnover.
The US internet gambling market amounted to around $6.4 billion in 2010, including sports betting, horse racing, casinos, poker and bingo. Only around 4% of that was on horse race betting, which is licensed in the US, and the remaining 96% derived from licensed betting companies based outside the US, for example in Costa Rica. Such gambling is regarded by the US authorities as illegal, but measures to prevent it have clearly not been wholly successful. Norway’s gambling watchdog has admitted that its online payments ban has “not been a success”, as research showed that more than half of internet gamblers now play as often as they did before the prohibition, but on unregulated sites abroad.
The Government are always vocal about formulating policy based on evidence. If they are serious about that, they should practise what they preach. The Deloitte report concluded:
“International evidence from jurisdictions such as the US, France and Italy indicates that many of the regulations introduced in these markets have failed to prevent the emergence of a large unregulated sector. These examples highlight the potential for customers to switch between licensed and unlicensed sectors, and point towards some of the challenges that are involved in introducing effective measures to prevent this occurrence… enforcement is challenging, with no existing system proven to be entirely effective and some jurisdictions losing significant shares of the market to the unlicensed sector.”
Without proper enforcement to protect the market, the reality is that only those based in the UK will be caught by the tax. We would therefore be in a perverse situation in which those operators that take out British licences and become subject to our taxation would be at a significant competitive disadvantage and their businesses would suffer accordingly. We would also create an unregulated monster abroad.
The motivation behind the Bill seems to be to raise revenue. As a result, it could even be rendered illegal under EU law. That could prove a hugely costly battle, and one that I am not entirely sure the Government could be confident of winning. My guess is that that is why they want to focus on consumer protection and regulation in an attempt to get around this particularly sticky wicket, but I am afraid that it is doomed to failure. If the POC rate were in single figures, many betting companies would accept it, but the higher the rate, the higher the likelihood of legal challenge.
Interestingly, Denmark has introduced a lower rate of tax for online gambling than for offline gambling, so that is an option now open to the UK Government. However, unfortunately there seems to be little evidence that they are reviewing such a policy. I was greatly encouraged by my hon. Friend’s view that the tax should be as low as possible, because getting 5% of something is a lot better than getting 15% of nothing.
Please do not take my word for that, Mr Deputy Speaker. The Deloitte report concluded that
“a cautious approach to the introduction of a POC tax appears to be appropriate. Setting an initial tax rate below 10% would be consistent with minimising the risk of promoting a grey market”—[Interruption.]
My hon. Friend seems to dismiss the Deloitte report, but he should bear it in mind that the Treasury Minister concerned used to work for Deloitte, so she might have more faith in its work than he does.
We need to focus on why some betting companies are based abroad. The reason is the level of taxation, and the level of taxation alone, so the Bill is a blunt instrument that does not address the need for a competitive rate of gross profits tax or allow businesses to reclaim their VAT in the UK. That would be a far more sensible point from which to start the debate, and one which many in the industry would be more willing to accept.
I fully appreciate where my hon. Friend is coming from, and I do not object to his proposal on principle, but I urge him to concentrate on the benefits of a single-figure rate of point-of-consumption tax, to weigh up the possibilities of a legal challenge from a powerful consortium and, most important of all, to address the elephants in the room—the high rate of VAT and the high rate of tax—and ensure that they are part of the solution, because if they are not, my hon. Friend’s proposal, which is genuinely intended, will be doomed to fail.
Question put and agreed to.
Ordered,
That Matthew Hancock, Nicholas Soames, Mr Gerry Sutcliffe, Mr Don Foster, Sandra Osborne, Ian Swales, Miss Anne McIntosh, Brandon Lewis, George Freeman, Simon Hart, John Glen and Mr Sam Gyimah present the Bill.
Matthew Hancock accordingly presented the Bill.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March, and to be printed (Bill 304).
Opposition Day
(12 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Banking (Responsibility and Reform)
(12 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
19:36 - The House divided: - Ayes: 244 / Noes: 295 - Question accordingly negatived.
Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House notes with concern that the recent Bank of England publication, Trends in Lending, shows that net lending to businesses has fallen in nine out of the last 12 months and by more than £10 billion in the last year; further notes that a Department for Business, Innovation and Skills report published on 2 February 2012 states that the stock of lending to small and medium-sized enterprises peaked in 2009 and in November 2011 declined by 6.1 per cent. compared to November 2010, whilst banks were frequently setting bonuses for their senior executives which were too large; believes that bank executive remuneration should be related to performance and that banks either directly or indirectly supported by the taxpayer must recognise that the taxpayer expects very large bonuses only to be paid to reflect genuine exceptional performance; notes with concern that the Government has not given due consideration to repeating the bankers’ bonus tax, in addition to the bank levy, to pay for 100,000 jobs for young people; calls on the Government to increase transparency, accountability and responsibility in the setting of pay in the banking sector, including through the immediate implementation of the Walker Review on corporate governance, and the placing of an employee representative on the remuneration committees of company boards; and further calls on the Government to reform the banking sector so that it better supports businesses and provides the credit they need to create jobs and growth.
I should like to take this opportunity to tell the House that I have been informed that the Business Secretary is not able to be here today because he is at a funeral. I am sure that the whole House will want to join me in wishing him well on this sad day.
The subject of the motion, responsibility and reform in the banking sector and in the wider economy, has been a matter of immense public interest of late and is one on which many Members have already spoken out. Let us be clear—I think I speak for most Members when I say this—that in speaking out on these issues hon. Members simply reflect the strong views expressed by our constituents on the subject.
The Labour party’s starting point is this: we are proud of our financial services centre, the City of London being arguably the world’s leading financial services centre. I, my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, who will make the Opposition’s winding-up speech, and many other Members are, I know, proud to have spent time working in the City of London before being elected to this place.
The City helps to give the country a competitive edge, thanks to the talent that we have here, our time zone, our company law, our jurisdiction and the free flow of capital in London. The financial services sector as a whole employs more than 1 million people nationally and makes up 10% of our total national income, but no witness to recent history could claim with credibility that the sector has functioned as British businesses, our economy and our society as a whole would have wanted over the past few years.
Ultimately, the fault for that lies with a minority of those working in the sector, but as the party in government through much of that period we, along with others in power throughout the world, must, and we do, accept with humility that we should have better regulated the sector, because dysfunction in the banking sector here and globally led to the financial crisis of 2008-09, to the recession that followed and to its aftermath. That recession, the gestation of which is found in the banking sector, is something for which the British people are still paying.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
My hon. Friend will be aware that the current structures were set up following the closure of the Bank of Credit and Commerce International 20 years ago. There remain within the Treasury the confidential parts of the Bingham report. Does he think that it is time that those confidential parts were published? That would give us a better understanding of exactly what went wrong in the biggest collapse of a bank in British history.
Mr Umunna
I agree with my right hon. Friend. I know that that is something for which he has campaigned for a long time.
We all know the facts. From the middle of 2007, the losses sustained on securities backed by sub-prime mortgage assets led to a credit crunch. That credit crunch came about due to a loss of counterparty confidence and uncertainty about which financial institutions held toxic assets. Depressed asset prices and increased losses led to serious solvency issues in major banks here and in the United States.
In the US, Bear Stearns had to be rescued by J. P. Morgan, Lehman Brothers collapsed, and AIG was nationalised in 2008 by that well known socialist, the 43rd President of the United States, George Bush. Here, Northern Rock had already been nationalised by the Labour Government by 2008. Later that year, we put in place a £500 billion package of measures designed to recapitalise the banks. That included the special liquidity scheme and inter-bank lending guarantees. The Labour Government took stakes in two of our biggest banks so that, by the end of 2009, the Government held a stake in Lloyds of just over 40% and a stake in RBS that increased to more than 80%.
For all the criticism that is often heaped on my right hon. Friends the Members for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) and for Kircaldidy—sorry, for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown)—by Government Members, I believe that we owe a debt of gratitude to them both for the decisive action that they took to save the system from itself, to secure people’s savings and to ensure that the people we represent could continue to withdraw money from cash machines in the wall. The Opposition are proud of what they achieved.
As the Independent Commission on Banking stated:
“without the intervention of national authorities around the world—requiring taxpayers to incur significant direct costs and larger contingent liabilities—the consequences of the crisis would have been immeasurably worse.”
It is for that reason that this House has every right to take an interest in remuneration and reform in the banking sector. After all, our banks still benefit from an implicit taxpayer subsidy if they fail.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
The Financial Services Authority blamed political pressure for the failure of RBS. Is the hon. Gentleman saying that the FSA is wrong?
Mr Umunna
I do not believe that that is what the report on RBS said. I did concede earlier that the Opposition accept that, in office, we should have better regulated the sector. I also think that Government Members who urged us towards a light-touch regulatory regime should accept that they, too, were mistaken.
John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree with me and some of my constituents who have been in touch that the one thing that is lacking in the current crisis is leadership? That was not the case a few years ago when my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) led the way.
Mr Umunna
I agree with my hon. Friend and thank him for correcting my pronunciation of the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath.
It is worth taking our minds back to the months leading up to April 2009, when the former Prime Minister went around the world galvanising support and encouraging people to attend the summit. It is worth noting that President Obama of the United States was not planning to attend the G20 conference in London, but in the end many people came here and the conference achieved great things and helped to secure the system. That was, indeed, leadership.
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman is telling the House about the record of the previous Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). Does he think the previous Prime Minister showed good leadership by recommending Fred Goodwin for a knighthood and giving him a £700,000 pension?
Mr Umunna
We have said that, if we had known then what we know now, we would not have knighted Fred Goodwin. However, I say to the hon. Gentleman that the future of the banking sector is bigger than the individuals who have featured in the headlines of late. It is important that we debate what happens in the sector as a whole rather than focusing on Fred Goodwin and other individuals, important though it is to make points about them.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
As we are examining history—some Government Members do not like to hear accurate history—I point out that Lord Burns was the Chairman and I was the deputy Chairman of the pre-legislative Joint Committee that considered the financial services Act. I remember that very clearly indeed, because it took us many months and was the first time there had been a joint Lords-Commons pre-legislative inquiry. The context was bitter resentment from the banks, which tried to water down the Bill, and no help from the people who led the Conservative party.
Mr Umunna
I presume that my hon. Friend is referring to the Joint Committee that considered the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. The consensus at the time was shown in the approach instilled in the Act, and we are now revisiting the regulation of the sector.
The crash was global in nature, and the causes cited by the Independent Commission on Banking include declining underwriting standards, the mispricing of risk, a vast expansion of banks’ balance sheets and rapid growth in securitised assets—in short, gross irresponsibility. The commission also stated in its report that one problem was that some bank employees were remunerated
“on the basis of reported profits that were neither time-adjusted nor risk-adjusted, and led to employee incentives that were not always aligned with the long-term interests of the bank.”
The US financial crisis inquiry commission established by President Obama, which reported last year, went further, stating:
“Compensation systems—designed in an environment of cheap money, intense competition, and light regulation—too often rewarded the quick deal, the short-term gain—without proper consideration of long-term consequences. Often, those systems encouraged the big bet—where the payoff on the upside could be huge and the downside limited.”
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that we should not demonise one group in society, whether they be bankers or benefit claimants? This is about fairness. We know from recent evidence that fairer societies are better for everybody, improving life expectancy and increasing social mobility. We should use that evidence to inform policy that is principally about fairness.
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
The Conservatives always tried to rewrite history when they were in opposition, but the truth is coming out now. Even Polly Toynbee, who was the biggest critic of my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), has now forgiven him and wishes he were back.
More importantly, if the man or woman in the street who goes to work every day fails in their job, they get the sack. No one but a banker would ever be rewarded for failure, but we now have a culture in this country of rewarding failure. Surely that must be wrong.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
Will the shadow Minister confirm that at that time he was an employment lawyer and was involved in structuring the compensation packages of investment houses? Does he have any regrets about how he behaved at the time?
Mr Umunna
I am glad that the hon. Gentleman brought up that point, because I anticipated it. First, I think it is good that Members of this House have experience in working for business. Secondly, my experience of advising different companies and financial institutions on such arrangements has convinced me that we must reform the way in which the system works—[Interruption.] I would also say to Ministers, who are crowing, that they might wish to reflect on the fact that my ultimate boss at the time when I was more deeply involved in drafting such arrangements was the senior partner of Herbert Smith, whom the Prime Minister ennobled in the first tranche of peers at the beginning of this Parliament—no doubt because of his services to the legal profession and the City of London.
As the Leader of the Opposition said last week, we are still dealing with the aftermath of the moment to which I have referred and the recession it caused. Many thousands of people lost their jobs and now face the biggest squeeze on their living standards in a generation. Thousands of robust, profitable businesses have struggled to access finance or have gone under. At this juncture, I want to tackle head on the accusation that to raise those issues and criticise the financial services sector is to be anti-business—some have even referred to it as indiscriminate business bashing. That is an utterly absurd notion given that among the most vociferous critics of our banks are the small and medium-sized businesses that make up the overwhelming majority of businesses in this country. The people making those outlandish claims of anti-business sentiment talk as though large financial institutions are the only businesses in this country. Yes, those institutions are an important part of our business community, but there is so much more to British business than big finance. Indeed, we need to rebalance our economy not to diminish our competitive edge in financial services but to grow other sectors so that we are not so reliant on that one sector.
Businesses in other sectors are struggling right now. The most recent Bank of England trends in lending show that net lending to businesses has fallen in nine out of the past 12 months and lending has fallen by more than £10 billion in the past year. A report published by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills last week states that the stock of lending to small and medium-sized businesses declined by 6.1% in November 2011 compared with a year earlier.
It is not just that the banks are failing to get the money out of the door to successful, profitable businesses with robust business models. There has been a move away from relationship banking, where banks saw it as their duty to get to know and understand their business customers properly. Yesterday, I met a number of successful export businesses in the home counties—businesses that help us pay our way in the world. I was told by the overwhelming majority that when it came to getting help from their banks to export and expand, their banks simply did not want to know.
Some have suggested that that is all the result of increased capital requirements on the banks, but Robert Jenkins, a member of the Bank of England’s interim Financial Policy Committee, told the Treasury Committee last month:
“Making the banks safer through greater resilience in their balance sheets and more capital does not, in and of itself, prevent additional lending.”
Despite all that, people and businesses have had to watch as billions in bonuses have been paid to bankers since 2008-09. It is worth stating that we are not talking about the sums earned by the average bank employee—the cashier, say, in a local branch—but about the enormous sums paid to investment bankers and a select few senior executives in the sector. Those bonuses have continued to be paid as a matter of course, regardless of the fact that many of the institutions, all of which directly or indirectly benefited from the interventions of the Government over the past five years and continue to benefit from an implicit subsidy, have been making thousands redundant, have seen their share prices and profits falling and have been found guilty of mis-selling payment protection insurance on a grand scale. To add insult to injury, Robert Jenkins, commenting on bank balance sheets, told the Treasury Committee:
“Every £1 billion of less bonus would support £20 billion of additional small business lending.”
It is no wonder that Sir Philip Hampton, the chair of RBS, himself said last week:
“Pay has been high for too long, particularly in the banks, particularly in the investment banks".
Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend also accept that lower-paid staff in banks often took much of their bonuses in the form of shares? Not only have they lost their jobs, many have lost out in their pension savings.
Mr Umunna
My right hon. Friend makes a good point. We should, of course, spare a thought for the employees whom she mentions.
It matters because, as the Governor of the Bank of England said last month, people have seen an extraordinary squeeze in their living standards, but the institutions and bankers at the centre of the crisis that created those problems are not only not suffering a gigantic squeeze on their living standards but continue to get very high remuneration, in part because the taxpayer has been forced to step in and bail them out.
Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)
Can the hon. Gentleman explain why, under the regulatory structure introduced by his Government, banks were able to hire staff on guaranteed bonuses totally unconnected with future performance, and why not a single individual in any of the five largest banks was subject to a fine? The two largest fines imposed on Northern Rock executives were less than the bonuses that they had received the preceding year.
Mr Umunna
On guaranteed bonuses, there is an element of contract in that, in terms of the arrangements between individual banks—[Interruption.] Will the hon. Gentleman listen and let me finish the point? There is an element of contract that provides for a bonus, but also an element of discretion. The fact that large bonuses were being paid out regardless of performance is, of course, what people outside Parliament object to.
Julian Smith
In order to create a balanced view, will the shadow business Minister confirm the tens of billions of pounds paid from those bonuses in income taxes and other taxes, such as employment taxes, during the period he is discussing?
Mr Umunna
Ultimately, the taxpayer had to put about £1.2 trillion into the system to support it. Juxtaposing that with the amount paid in tax by the sector, I am not sure that it comes to the same sum. I get the point that the hon. Gentleman is making. I do not deny that the financial services sector has contributed in tax receipts, but that is not outweighed by what we have had to pay out to save it from itself.
The status quo will not do. Change is essential. In November last year, Bob Diamond, chief executive of Barclays, said in his BBC “Today” business lecture that
“the single most important thing for banks and for businesses now is to focus on helping to create jobs and economic growth; and being able to do that requires us—banks in particular—to rebuild the trust that has been decimated by events of the past three years; and that rebuilding trust requires banks to be better citizens.”
I agree with Mr Diamond, but actions matter far more than words to people and businesses.
At the Business Secretary’s instigation, the Government established the Independent Commission on Banking, for which he deserves credit. If its recommendations are implemented, they will help to deliver a banking system that supports our economy’s interests in the long term. However, a number of things must happen to address the issues in the short term, not least of which is the matter of remuneration, which can be corrosive of public trust in our banks.
First, greater transparency on pay in the banking sector is needed. A good place to start would be immediate implementation of the Walker review. In 2009, Sir David Walker recommended new rules on the disclosure of bankers’ remuneration within pay bands above £1 million. In government, we legislated for that fairly modest scheme to be put in place so that irresponsible remuneration practices could be identified and rooted out. So modest were the proposals that the now Business Secretary told the House at the time that Sir David had produced
“an embarrassing mouse of a report”.—[Official Report, 30 November 2009; Vol. 501, c. 900.]
In the June 2010 Budget, the Business Secretary and his coalition partners pledged to take forward these modest proposals, but in November 2010 the Chancellor suddenly declared that he would not countenance implementation unless he could secure international agreement for the measures. In giving evidence to the Treasury Select Committee in December 2010, however, RBS’s Stephen Hester indicated that unilateral adoption of the Walker review proposals would not put the UK financial services sector at a significant disadvantage. Given the modesty of the Walker review proposals, why on earth will the Government not implement them?
Secondly, to increase accountability, we have said that an ordinary worker should be placed on the company remuneration committees setting pay. I do not understand why the Government have been so resistant to this idea. The Business Secretary has said that he is very sympathetic to the idea but has raised practical objections on the basis that there are many FTSE companies whose employees are predominantly overseas. These practical obstacles can be overcome, however, not least through technologies such as telephone and video conferencing, which in this day and age are a common feature of board meetings.
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)
Having a worker on the board is not just about accountability. Would it not also address the fact that remuneration committees tend to comprise people much like the people whose salaries and bonuses they are assessing? It is not surprising, therefore, that they decide in favour of higher bonuses and salaries. That is another reason a different voice is needed on the committees.
Mr Umunna
I agree with my hon. Friend. First, an employee understands what is going on in the business—perhaps, in some respects, better than a non-executive director—and, secondly, employees have a stake in the business, and if the business fails, they ultimately pay the price, as thousands of RBS employees going through the redundancy process are now realising.
Mr Sheerman
I am certainly not against this sensible proposal to put employees on boards, but as I understand the Walker review and its recommendations, it does not meet the situation now. Instead of innovations, we need something so dramatic that we change the culture in our banking system and its understanding of what is right and wrong, as was mentioned earlier. The culture is what matters, but I see nothing coming from the Government that will fundamentally change the culture that motivates the people working in the sector.
Mr Umunna
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.
I thank my hon. Friend for his contribution. The Walker review proposals are the start, not the end, of the reform needed, but my hon. Friend makes a strong point about the culture in the financial services sector. On the proposal to have an employee on the remuneration committee, would not the RBS board be in a stronger position if it could say, on matters of pay, that an employee representative had been involved in the decision making?
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
I am listening with great interest to the hon. Gentleman’s extended exposition on the failings of the previous Labour Government. It is nice to see him joined by so many for such an extended mea culpa. [Hon. Members: “Where’s the question?”] My question is this: does he think that the objectives of a company executive should be to maximise shareholder value for his business, to do the Government’s bidding or to do the bidding of a broader range of interests?
Mr Umunna
The hon. Gentleman asks a good question. Ultimately, of course, a director’s duty is to shareholders, but I take issue with those who suggest that the Labour Government did not introduce reforms, because we did introduce reforms, one of which was the Companies Act 2006, which changed the nature of company law so that other stakeholder interests could be accounted for. In some respects, though, shareholder interests are not necessarily completely separate from those of wider society. My strong view is that business and society are mutually dependent, and that goes for our banks as well. Banks rely on society to provide talent, skills and custom, and we rely on banks not only to perform a social utility function for individuals and businesses, but to provide growth and jobs. How does that relate to the hon. Gentleman’s point about shareholder value? If a bank fails its customers—as happened, for example, in the payment protection insurance scandal—that has a knock-on impact on reputation, which can ultimately have a knock-on impact on profit, which is against the shareholder interest.
Mr Umunna
I will move on, so that I can finish and others can get in.
What else needs to happen? The banks are accountable to their shareholders, and the Government have told shareholders to be more active. A starting point should be for the Government to practise what they preach in relation to their shareholdings in the publicly owned banks, particularly in the setting of pay and bonuses. It seems that their default position at the moment is that they do not want to get involved unless forced to do so. That has to change. More responsibility is needed. The public rightly expect the culture of excessive bonuses to stop. That means that bank executive remuneration that is described as performance-related should be just that: related to performance. Very large bonuses should be paid only to reflect genuinely exceptional performance, if trust in the system is to be maintained. The public expect the same of other organisations enjoying taxpayer subsidies. Network Rail—part of an industry backed by a £4 billion taxpayer subsidy—is a good example. It was planning to push through a new bonus scheme under which senior managers were due to receive 60% of their salaries as a bonus every year, and a further 500% at the end of each five-year funding period. That kind of bonus culture is unacceptable to people and difficult to fathom. Again, the Government did little to stop that, but in the end the Network Rail board saw sense.
Mark Lazarowicz
My hon. Friend is being generous in giving way. When bonuses are paid for performance, is it not also important that they should be paid for performance that is related to the activities of the people receiving them? They should not be bonuses that could depend on factors that have nothing to do with the activities of the directors concerned, as would have been the case with Network Rail.
Mr Umunna
I will move on.
Given that market mechanisms since the crash have not operated to rein in excessive pay in the banking sector, the bank bonus tax, we have argued, should be repeated, on top of the bank levy, in recognition of the fact that the banking sector owes a responsibility to society in general. If the claim that we are all in it together is to mean anything, the reintroduction of that tax is a must. It would create 100,000 youth jobs and 25,000 affordable homes. It would do immeasurable good to the reputation of the sector and support jobs, growth and business in the UK economy.
Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)
I agree with some of the things that the hon. Gentleman has said, but the last Labour Chancellor said that
“it will be a one-off thing because, frankly, the very people you are after here are very good at getting out of these things”.
Those were the words of the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) in autumn 2010. What has changed since?
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)
With house building down, homelessness up and nearly 2 million people on waiting lists for council housing, does my hon. Friend agree with the unemployed building worker in Erdington who said to me that the time has come to tax the bankers, build homes, put people such as him back to work, and create apprenticeships and hope for our young people?
Mr Umunna
I want to make a little more progress.
We need a more diverse and competitive banking system that is rooted in our communities and that better serves the financing needs of our businesses, as the Federation of Small Businesses and other organisations have argued. We need better developed equity finance, too, which is why we are exploring the possibility of creating in the UK something akin to the US Government’s small business investment company programme. That programme financed the likes of Apple and Intel in their early stages. We are also considering plans to set up a British investment bank that could step in if the market failed to provide for our entrepreneurs.
Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)
We all appreciate that this banking crisis has gone on considerably longer than we envisaged. In 2008, we probably all thought that we would have divested ourselves of our huge stake in RBS and Lloyds Banking Group by now. I therefore fully support the idea of a structure for bonuses that would come into play only when we have divested ourselves of our stake in those two banks. However, I get the impression from all that the hon. Gentleman has said that he draws no distinction between those two banks, in which we have large holdings, and the rest of the banking sector. Am I correct in that assumption?
Mr Umunna
No; partly because, whether we like it or not, the way in which the public regard RBS and Lloyds is different from the way in which they regard, say, Barclays or other banking groups, simply because of the public stake in them. That is the issue that crept up on members of the RBS board over the past couple of weeks. For all that was said about the terms on which the different executives and employees were joining RBS, they were essentially joining an institution that the public have very much come to regard as a public entity.
Mark Field
Is the hon. Gentleman therefore working towards putting in place a policy that would be more onerous for RBS and Lloyds Banking Group, in which the public have a large stake, than for the rest of the banking system? Does he feel that that would be a sensible way to go forward?
Mr Umunna
That is not actually what we are arguing for. We have said, given that the Government have been lecturing shareholders on being more active in relation to their shareholdings, that the Government should of course take a more active approach to those banks in which we have a stake. As has been pointed out, however, the sector as a whole needs a change in its culture; that applies across the board.
Right now, we need the Government to make good on their promise to implement credit easing, to relieve the credit squeeze on businesses. That plan was announced to great fanfare more than four months ago, but nothing has happened. I am glad that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban) will be responding to this debate. Perhaps he can tell us what has become of the scheme. The lack of speed with which the Government have proceeded with it is in marked contrast to the actions of the German and US Governments, for example. In Germany, KFW doubled the amount of small business finance available very quickly over the past couple of years through its lending programmes.
Some people suggest that if we do all these things, wealthy bankers will simply move abroad. We are for ever being held to ransom by that threat. It is notable, however, that many of those who put that argument benefit from the status quo. They have been making the argument for a number of years, but they are still here. They tend to ignore the fact that it is the banks’ shareholders—not just politicians and society at large—who are calling for reform. Shareholders such as Jupiter, F&C Asset Management and Legal & General have all reportedly told the banks to be sensitive to the popular mood, and to moderate pay rises to match sharp falls in shareholder returns. The Association of British Insurers is reportedly meeting all the banks at the moment, including Barclays. Those people also ignore the fact that bankers and executives in other countries are being required to change their ways. For example, our banks’ US rivals are cutting bonuses by up to 30% at the moment.
Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab)
Where would those chief executives go? In Europe, they would get a lot less, and in America some chief executives have gone to court and even to prison. Perhaps they want to stay where they are because they feel safe here.
Mr Umunna
I am sure that many of those executives are watching the debate, and that they will pay attention to what my hon. Friend has said.
I will finish by returning to where I started. We are proud of our financial sector; it is an asset. We need it to help create the jobs and growth that are so lacking at present. All we ask is that it better serve the real economy in this endeavour—and that it does so more responsibly. With that in mind, I urge all Members to support our motion.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. Before I call the Minister, let me say that we are going to introduce a time limit of eight minutes for Back Benchers.
Mr Hoban
May I thank the hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) for his remarks about my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills? I am sure that the whole House will identify with them.
I welcome the opportunity to debate business lending and the reform of the British banking system. As hon. Members are well aware, we face extremely tough economic circumstances as we weather the ongoing crisis in the eurozone and fix the underlying damage that the previous Government inflicted on the economy.
The UK banking sector in particular faces a long and difficult road to repair, unwinding the irresponsible and unsustainable excesses of the previous decade. In the aftermath of the worst financial crisis in almost a century, bank balance sheets are shrinking under market and regulatory pressure. It is absolutely right that we ensure that our banks build their capital and liquidity reserves in these turbulent times. It was because of that action that all our banks passed the European Banking Authority stress tests.
It is stability that we are safeguarding for the long term by discarding the shadow Chancellor’s discredited tripartite system and implementing the recommendations of the Vickers committee. It is this Government who are ensuring that we build a stable financial sector with the capacity and the market confidence to provide sustainable lending to our most innovative, ambitious and entrepreneurial private sector firms.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
Given that the Minister feels that the industry is more stable, is he concerned to hear the chief executive of the National Australia bank, which owns the Clydesdale and Yorkshire banks, say today that the bank might have to consider selling, or at least restructuring, the business—partly because the UK Government’s austerity programme has contributed to the harsh business environment, which is why the bank is carrying out a review?
Mr Hoban
The reason we have to have the austerity programme in place is to tackle the mess left by the Labour party when it was in government.
As I was saying, we are seeking to reform the sector to ensure that it can lend to businesses in the long term, but we have also taken decisive action to stimulate credit in the short term. That is why the Government secured an agreement with the UK’s largest banks to provide £190 billion of new lending to business in 2011. By the third quarter of last year, those banks had loaned more than £157 billion to UK businesses, which is 11% above their implied target. That includes £56 billion of lending to small and medium-sized enterprises—10% higher than at the same point in 2010.
I noted that during the rather long speech of the shadow Business Secretary, he talked about lending but put forward no ideas about how Labour would tackle it, yet we in government have taken action to get the banks lending to businesses and to make sure that there is a supply of creditors to SMEs.
Mr Umunna
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I have to say that many of the organisations that represent our SMEs will listen with incredulity to the Minister’s suggestion that credit conditions are somehow all fine and that all is well. The fact is that, according to the Bank of England’s latest figures, we have seen a net contraction in lending to SMEs in nine of the last 12 months. It is clearly still a problem. In fairness, the Government announced that they were going to provide some credit easing—admittedly when the Chancellor said so in his speech to the Conservative party conference, although I never quite understood what he was talking about—but so far we have seen absolutely no action. When will this credit easing system come into effect?
Mr Hoban
I had hoped that the hon. Gentleman would come up with some ideas, yet he took a rather lengthy intervention to demonstrate that Labour has no ideas about what to do. Let me set out some of the structural measures we are taking to tackle the supply of debt and equity finance to businesses, and SMEs in particular. We are continuing the enterprise capital funds, and we are simplifying and refocusing the venture capital trusts and enterprise investment scheme to encourage more equity investment in start-ups.
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)
The issue of lending to small and medium-sized businesses is much more complex than the hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) suggested. Some months ago I spent a day at Barclays SME sector lending centre in Birmingham. It is clear that many small businesses are focusing on paying down their existing debts, building up reserves, and using their existing overdraft facilities at around the 50% mark. Does my hon. Friend not agree that that is one of the causes of the problem?
Mr Hoban
Indeed. My hon. Friend has made an important point which should be noted by the Opposition. Net lending takes into account not just banks’ gross lending but decisions that businesses make to pay down their debt, and that is what we are seeing. We are seeing businesses deleverage in the same way as banks are deleveraging. I do not know whether the Labour party believes that banks should stop businesses paying down their debt in order to force up the net lending figures.
Mr Hoban
I have already been generous in giving way, and I will be generous again in a minute.
We will implement a new seed enterprise investment scheme to encourage investment in early-stage companies, with income tax relief and a capital gains tax holiday to kick-start the programme. We will ensure that our adventurous and ambitious small enterprises receive the support that they need to become the next world leaders.
Mr Hoban
Will hon. Members calm down for a minute, and allow me to deal with the point about credit easing?
I think that bank credit will remain the principal source of finance for businesses throughout the United Kingdom. That is why in our autumn statement we went further to ensure access to finance. Last year the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced two bold new credit-easing measures to provide up to £21 billion of new lending for UK businesses. Through the national loan guarantee scheme, we are allowing participating banks to raise up to £20 billion of funding with Government guarantees, lowering their cost of funding and enabling them to reduce lending rates to business by as much as 1%.
Derek Twigg
An increasing number of subcontractors in my constituency, especially in the construction industry, are having short-term cash problems, either because their contractors have gone out of business or because the contractors are deliberately not paying the subcontractors. However, when the subcontractors go to the banks for help, the banks say “We are not going to help you.” As a result, subcontracting businesses are going bust and people are being thrown out of work, although it would be possible for the banks to provide finance in the short term.
Mr Hoban
The hon. Gentleman should tell the businesses in his constituency to use the appeals mechanism that was introduced to enable businesses to challenge decisions by banks and ensure that they are reviewed. Since the introduction of that scheme, 40% of bank managers’ decisions have been overturned through the appeals process.
Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab)
When the Governor of the Bank of England appeared before the Treasury Select Committee, he deplored the banks’ refusal to meet the Merlin targets. Furthermore, he said that the Government had chosen the wrong targets, which allowed the banks to hide the fact that they were not lending properly to small businesses. Was he misleading the Committee?
Mr Hoban
I gave the hon. Gentleman the figures earlier. As I said, by the third quarter of last year banks had exceeded their Merlin targets for lending to businesses as a whole, and were about 10% ahead of their lending to SMEs in comparison with the same point last year.
Let me say a little more about the credit-easing measures that we are introducing. There will be a £1 billion business finance partnership to co-invest in funds that can lend directly to middle-sized businesses and further stimulate non-bank lending channels for SMEs. Those schemes capitalise on the Government’s commitment to tackling the deficit that the last Government left behind. Unlike the Opposition, we are determined to safeguard our economic stability and protect our credibility in the world market—credibility which has secured our triple A rating and kept our interest rates at record low levels, and which allows us to pursue innovative credit-easing measures to reduce costs for businesses and ensure that more money goes where it is needed.
Richard Fuller
In referring to the “non-bank” ways in which credit easing could be used, my hon. Friend has identified one of the best ways of establishing responsibility and reform in our banks: through the creation of powerful alternative mechanisms enabling our small and medium-sized businesses to raise finance.
Mr Hoban
My hon. Friend makes a very important point. For too long businesses have been dependent on banks for their finance. We need to broaden the range of sources of finance that is available to business. This model works well elsewhere in the world. There has clearly been a market failure here, and our business finance partnership is aimed at tackling that failure. There are people out there who are willing to bring forward ideas to enable more investment to go into small and medium-sized businesses.
Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)
While we think about how to address these problems and encourage alternative forms of finance in the future, what will we do about the small businesses that are going bust now because they are not getting access to finance and do not have the time to go through what is a bureaucratic appeals process?
Mr Hoban
The challenge is to ensure that banks are ready to lend and have the resources to do so. Project Merlin has delivered that. It is a more ambitious programme of ensuring the flow of credit to the economy than the previous Government tried or the current Opposition have even thought about.
The credit easing schemes we have proposed are supported by businesses throughout the country, as well as by the CBI, the British Chambers of Commerce and the Federation of Small Businesses. These schemes, coupled with our reforms to the financial sector, will ensure that the UK banking sector continues to provide the fuel for a private sector recovery.
After the excesses of the last decade, it is clear that we can build a sustainable financial sector and a sound economy only by reforming the regulation and structure of banks. Yesterday the House held the Second Reading debate on the Financial Services Bill, at which the shadow Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls), found himself in the awkward position of being forced to defend the failed tripartite system of regulation that he designed. He did not strike the same contrite note that the shadow Business Secretary has struck today. The Bill debated last night abandons the dysfunctional tripartite system and returns micro and macro-prudential regulation to the Bank of England, making the Bank the single point of accountability for financial stability. It also creates a new and strong conduct regulator to promote competition and protect consumers. Through these changes, along with the Basel reforms, living wills and new resolution regimes, and the reforms to the structure of banking from the Vickers report, we are remedying what the Chancellor called
“the biggest failure of economic management and banking regulation in our country’s history.”—[Official Report, 6 February 2012; Vol. 540, c. 43.]
That failure was, of course, presided over by the Labour party.
We need to build a foundation for the sustainable flow of lending to households and businesses across the country, and we must take a lead in building a financial sector that is based on the principles of responsibility, prudence and sustainability. In fulfilling that commitment, we must act on bank remuneration in order to tackle excessive and irresponsible levels of pay.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
Yesterday, Ernst and Young said UK bank lending will shrink for the first time since 2009. It has predicted lending will shrink by 2.2%, with further shrinkage in 2013. Given that, does the Minister think Project Merlin has been a resounding success, or will he choose not to continue with it next year?
Mr Hoban
Project Merlin set lending targets for banks. At the point of the third quarter, the targets for lending to all business had been achieved and those for lending to small and medium-sized enterprises had just been missed. Project Merlin therefore has certainly achieved in respect of its goal of getting credit flowing to the economy. I agree that businesses face challenges in borrowing money. They need to have a viable plan, and we need to work more closely with businesses to ensure that the support is in place to enable them to make successful applications for bank funding.
Mark Field
We have a very large holding in RBS and we clearly will not be divesting ourselves of much of that holding for probably the next 10 years or so. What thought has the Minister given to using RBS, with its expertise and huge distribution network, as a mechanism for credit easing? I am sure that all Members hear from business people that these problems are not going to be solved unless we ensure that our SMEs have access to the capital that they so desperately need.
Mr Hoban
The national loan guarantee scheme will be open to all banks, including RBS, Lloyds, Barclays and HSBC, and we are currently taking that work forward.
Under the last Government, we witnessed the growth of the bonus culture, where bonuses could be paid in cash, in one year, and were never clawed back in the event of failure. We are changing that culture. Bonuses under the Financial Services Authority code are paid out over at least three years, in shares, not just cash, and failure can be punished by clawing back bonuses, and at both RBS and Lloyds cash bonuses will again be limited to £2,000.
Mr Hoban
Let me make some more progress.
Through the disclosure regime, we have provided more transparency than ever before, revealing the executive pay of the five highest-earning non-board executives for the Project Merlin banks last year. We are consulting this year on extending the requirement to cover eight executives at all banks operating in the UK, and UK banks now also have to disclose the aggregate pay of all their key risk-takers. These are some of the toughest rules in the world. It is because of our pressure and our leadership that the Commission’s capital requirements directive—CRD IV—contains proposals for additional regulations on remuneration disclosure which closely follow the recommendations of the Walker report.
Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab)
The Minister points out that the so-called “cash bonus system” emerged under the previous Government. Perhaps he can remind me, but I do not recall many Opposition day debates promoted by his party against the bonus culture. Did he personally, as a member of the shadow Treasury team at the time, mount any kind of opposition to or campaign against that bonus culture?
Mr Hoban
Clearly we had more power in opposition than we thought; we seem to be being blamed for the bonus culture and what was happening in the banks. As the hon. Gentleman will recognise, we have seen a bonus culture develop in this country and action needs to be taken. It is a bit rich for Labour Members to be criticising us, given that they were in government for the past 13 years and had the power to do something about the situation.
Chris Williamson
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, at about the 35th time of asking. Will he now accept that it would be appropriate to repeat the bankers’ bonus tax and create 100,000 new jobs and 25,000 affordable homes, and give a boost to the construction industry, which is on its knees as a result of his Government’s policies?
Mr Hoban
I was going to discuss the bank payroll tax a little later, but let the hon. Gentleman just ponder for a while why the person who introduced that tax, the former Chancellor, described it as a “one-off” and something that was not workable because it did not change the behaviour. What we have done is introduce the bank levy, which the Labour party opposed when it was in government, and every year that is raising £2.5 billion more than the bank payroll tax raised in a single year. That is the product of well-thought-through taxation policy. We have gone ahead and imposed that bank levy, but the Labour party, when in government, opposed it.
Let me discuss the interaction of bank bonuses and capital. We agree with the interim Financial Policy Committee that capital levels, not bonus payments, have to be the priority. Banks must strengthen their balance sheets as a foundation for lending to families and businesses. That is why the FSA is rigorously scrutinising bank distribution plans, and it will not approve plans unless they are consistent with required capital levels, ensuring that banks maintain the capital they need in order to finance businesses. It is because of our leadership that bonus levels have already started to fall. According to the Centre for Economics and Business Research, City bonuses tripled under Labour, and when the shadow Chancellor was Minister for the City they were £11.6 billion. At the time, the shadow Business Secretary was carefully drafting the contracts to ensure that people could earn those bonuses. Last year, bonuses were almost half that figure, at £6.7 billion, and we fully expect them to fall further this time. Thanks to the action we have taken, bonus pools have come down and Labour’s cash bonus culture has been ended.
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister may be aware that the number of bank branch closures is beginning to rise again, as is the number of branches with restricted opening hours. Will he tell the House what decisive action he has taken to reverse those trends?
Mr Hoban
The hon. Gentleman needs to reflect on what is happening in banking. I think his hon. Friend the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) even got as far, in last night’s debate on the Financial Services Bill, as suggesting that people should not use online banking so as to keep bank branches open. People are changing the way that they access banking and are thinking about whether they need to go into bank branches. We need to ensure that branches are there to meet needs where that is commercially viable, but there is no free lunch here. If the cost of maintaining branch networks continues to rise and insufficient numbers of people use them, the cost will be passed on to the customers who use the branches. The hon. Gentleman needs to think quite carefully about how many additional costs he wants to impose on bank customers in order to keep branch networks viable in that way.
Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)
Is the Minister aware of today’s announcement by the Clydesdale bank about its restructuring programme, which it says is taking place as a result of the UK Government’s austerity Budget, which is causing difficulties for the bank and a difficult economic climate? It employs 2,000 people in my constituency. There are real concerns about job losses in Glasgow and about the closure of branches of that bank, which was going about its business in a meaningful way.
Mr Hoban
If the hon. Gentleman had been here a little earlier, he would have heard my reply to his hon. Friend the hon. Member for Edinburgh East, who asked about exactly the same problem. The reality is that there are issues facing banks in the UK, and Clydesdale needs to reflect that. The hon. Member for Edinburgh East also raised the issue of the austerity programme, but that is in place to tackle the problems the Labour Government left behind.
On corporate governance, the previous Government failed to tackle the bonus culture and failed fundamentally to reform corporate governance. The Business Secretary has announced a package of measures to tackle the disconnect between top pay and company performance. Shareholders need the information and powers to hold boards to account on pay. We will give them that and we expect them to use those powers. The Institute of Directors, the National Association of Pension Funds, the CBI and the Association of British Insurers all support the Government’s ambitions. As Otto Thoresen, the director general of the ABI, said when he wrote to bank chairmen last December,
“it can no longer be business as usual for this remuneration round”.
Across the board there is consensus that we need to tackle excessive pay and this Government are answering that, but it is not an easy task. Across the economy, and especially in the banking sector, the previous Government allowed an unjustifiable sense of bonus entitlement to grow, whether in the public or private sector. Under them, a bonus became a right, not a reward, and simply par for the course. After 13 years of Labour Government, we now have a substantial challenge ahead—dismantling the culture of excessive pay in the banking sector. We have already gone some way towards dismantling that culture, but we still have a long way to go.
Mr Umunna
Will the Minister at least concede that this issue and the kind of perverse incentive structures we have heard about, with rewards for failure and excessive pay in the boardroom and the City, have grown over the past three decades under different Governments of different colours? Will he have the humility to accept that?
Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
What were you saying about it at the time?
Mr Hoban
Well, one thing is for certain: I was not designing the contracts that gave the big payouts.
It is time that the banking sector demonstrated leadership, and the coming bonus round is another chance for it to demonstrate leadership on pay. As we empower shareholders to drive remuneration policy, the banking sector has to be at the vanguard of the debate on responsible executive pay.
Mark Field
The Minister is being admirably forward-looking in his speech by trying to present where we should go for the future rather than focusing too much on some of the battles of the past. One of the biggest concerns in this area is about institutional shareholders who have large stakes in FTSE 250 companies and in our banks. How are we going to embolden them to use the notional power they have as shareholders? Many of them have 5%, 6% or 7% shareholdings and could do something. What is going to ensure that there is a culture of change such that they become shareholder activists rather than shareholders who sit on their hands and their dividends year on year?
Mr Hoban
My hon. Friend raises an important point. The reforms outlined by my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary ensure that shareholders have the information they need to act. We are also giving them the power to vote and their votes will have a binding impact on future pay plans. The pervading culture today and the sense of concern in the wider economy mean that institutional shareholders need to play their part by looking after the interests of the people who invest in their funds—the people whose pensions are dependent on good returns from their investments. Those shareholders owe an obligation to their customers to exercise their rights to determine the pay policies of boards. We need to focus on that in coming years. My predecessor, Lord Myners, talked about it a great deal. Our reforms have provided the tools and we must ensure that we use them to hold institutional shareholders to account.
Mr Mudie
The problem for the public is that the Minister can lecture private shareholders in private banks to use their power to limit bonuses in their banks, but Ministers, who are the owners of RBS, have not intervened and used shareholder power to get good behaviour in the bank they own. Why?
Mr Hoban
We have been very clear as shareholders that we expect RBS to act as the back marker on bonuses. We have been keen to ensure that it restricts cash payments to only £2,000 a year. It is not just the Government who agree with that view. In an article about RBS, the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) pointed out that the Government should not run RBS; they should not get involved in the day-to-day business of banks but should run them at arm’s length. That was a structure set up by the previous Government and I understand that the Leader of the Opposition supported it. [Interruption.] The shadow Business Secretary says that we should change it, but he should speak to his leader. The right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) clearly endorses the structures set up by the previous Government. They should sort out their internal differences—it is not as though they are brothers.
I have spoken for quite some time and others want to speak, so I shall conclude. This Government have secured the stability of our economy by tackling the dreadful deficit left behind by our predecessors. This Government have secured the stability of our financial sector with tough regulatory reforms. This Government are supporting our entrepreneurs in rebalancing our economy, away from the unsustainable and wasteful spending under the previous Government. We are securing stable interest rates through our commitment to tackle the deficit. We are reducing the bureaucratic burden on businesses by slashing red tape and overhauling planning. We are unleashing private sector ambitions by cutting corporation tax to the lowest rate in the G7 and the fifth lowest rate in the G20. We are ensuring that our most ambitious and dynamic businesses have the finance they need to lead recovery in every part of our economy and our country.
Mr Speaker
Order. The House will be aware of the level of interest, and therefore the imposition of an eight-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches.
Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op)
Obviously, I support the motion. The manner in which my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) introduced it reflected the widespread concern among the public about the issues it encompasses. He gave a proportionate and balanced view of what has happened over the past few years and gave us an insight into how we have arrived where we are now.
I support my hon. Friend in saying that the Labour Government did not get it all right, and as a supporter of that Government I take my share of the responsibility. It will be interesting to read speeches made by some Government Members in debates before the 2008 recession. They advocated less regulation, not more. Indeed, the only person I can remember continually warning us about the consequences of the banking system was the current Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. In opposition, as a Lib Dem spokesman, he repeated the warnings so often and so apocalyptically that he became known as the Member for doom and gloom. I can assure Members that now that he is in a position to do something about it, the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills will interview him to see whether, in government, he lives up to the statements that he made in opposition.
Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way and for remembering accurately that my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable) warned repeatedly, in the run-up to the crash, that we were heading for a crash. Does the hon. Gentleman recall—I am sure that he did not do this—that many Labour Members used to jeer my right hon. Friend, saying that he was indeed a doom-monger and that he was wrong?
Mr Bailey
I acknowledge that, shall we say, continued repetition on that theme earned the right hon. Gentleman a certain notoriety among Government Back Benchers of the time. Most people would look back and say, “Yes, there was some truth in what he said,” but they would also say, “Let’s see if he lives up to what he said.” That is what my Committee and I will seek to find out.
The situation is profoundly worrying and contravenes the sense of fairness in this country. To most people in the street, there is something perverse about a system that punishes people on low and medium incomes for something for which they were not responsible, yet those who were responsible are rewarded. Even worse, that sense of injustice is compounded when the taxes of people on low and medium incomes finance that reward. It not only offends a deep sense of fairness but, it could be argued, it is socially and economically dysfunctional. That is the context of the debate.
Mark Lazarowicz
Does my hon. Friend agree that among those who have the right to be most angry at what happened are the many thousands of people who work for banks, such as many individuals in my constituency, who are not on higher pay and do not receive massive bonuses, but who keep the banks going by working in offices, branches and so on? They are the real victims of this saga, more so than anyone else.
Mr Bailey
No, I have given way twice, and there is a time limit on speeches.
There is a disconnect between wealth creation and money making in our society, which is offensive to our sense of fairness and bad for the economy as well. The business context can be demonstrated in a number of ways, one of which came home to me when I visited Rolls-Royce in Derby, and spoke to a bright, young girl at the company who was an Oxbridge engineering graduate. She told me that of her Oxbridge cohort she was the only one to go into engineering with an engineering degree: other engineers went into banking. Given the debate about the importance of manufacturing, engineering excellence and rebalancing the economy, to my mind, that demonstrates an important issue: we will not rebalance the economy unless we rebalance the rewards for working in different sectors. We cannot achieve one without the other.
Another factor is the relationship between banks and industry. It is fair to say that the German economy has survived better than those of other European countries, and one of the reasons for that—I accept that it is not the whole picture—is the relationship between banks and industry, which historically have worked together on a much longer-term basis. German SMEs are not totally immune to the problems facing their British counterparts, but they are not nearly as great. The Minister set out the situation with Project Merlin and gave a litany of schemes that have been put in place to help small businesses, but the fact is that lending is falling. Probably every Member has an example of an SME in their constituency coming to them and saying, “If only we could get a grant or get the bank to help, we could invest this or buy that, and we would be able to employ more people and expand, and that could get us out of recession.” The fact is that there is a dysfunctionality in our banking system’s relationship with industry that is grossly impeding our ability to create jobs and grow our way out of recession.
My hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) quoted Robert Jenkins, a member of the Bank of England’s Financial Policy Committee, when he made the point that £1 billion less in bonuses could provide £20 billion for SMEs. Banks must factor in risk when lending to businesses, but that £1 billion, if diverted, would be written off their balance sheets anyway. Why not look at some scheme whereby money that might have been allocated for bonuses is diverted, either through taxation or another scheme, to lending for small businesses? That could make a huge difference to the capacity of small businesses to play a full role in growing us out of recession.
Alternatively, we must look at tax. The bankers bonus tax would provide the basis for stimulating the economy. A high proportion of small businesses say they are not applying for loans because they are so lacking in confidence about their future prospects and current levels of consumer spending, and that is a barrier. Getting 100,000 more people into work as a result of that stimulus would help to overcome the problem.
I will conclude my remarks by acknowledging—one or two Members have mentioned this, quite validly—that our financial services industry in itself is hugely important to our economy, so we must be careful to ensure that any measures are proportionate and will not have unintended consequences that could damage the industry. However, there is no doubt whatsoever that the industry is not serving our wider economy or society as well as it could do. The sorts of measures that the Opposition propose would go a considerable way towards changing that.
We have a window of opportunity, with public opinion behind us and all the economic and social statistics demonstrating the validity of the case for taking action. The Government should lead on this, but at the moment they seem to be finding excuses for not doing so. If they would only apply to this matter the same resolution and commitment they have shown on welfare reform and other areas, we could have a change that would transform the economy and generate that sense of fairness in this country.
Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)
Here we are again in another Opposition-day debate centred on the economy, banks and bonuses. The handwritten notes I prepared earlier this afternoon read, “And yet again we hear no contrition from the Labour Front Bench.” However, as this is a debate and we have to respond to it, I will at least acknowledge that there was some contrition from the hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna). I guess it must be easier for him, and indeed for his Front-Bench colleagues, who were all elected in 2010, to wash their hands of the last Labour Government’s decisions and offer at least some apology for what their predecessors did in office. However, it would be good to hear a collective apology from the Opposition, including those Members who were here in the previous Parliament, for the ineffective regulation and supervision of the banking industry, which was a major factor in the collapse of the banks and the economic failure and contraction that happened four years ago.
Chris Williamson
On the point about contrition, will the hon. Gentleman not also call on Government Front Benchers to apologise for calling for less regulation prior to the banking crash in 2008? While on the subject, what about having some contrition from him about tuition fees?
Stephen Williams
I am responsible for my party’s statements and, indeed, my party’s mistakes in certain instances but, as I said in my intervention on the hon. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey), in the previous Parliament, my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable) warned consistently about the coming economic catastrophe. The hon. Gentleman was not here at the time, but I think that he would have been ashamed to hear the jeering and cat-calling that my right hon. Friend had to put up with at the time.
It was the culture, not just the lax regulation, that led to some of the problems we have experienced in recent years. During the last decade of the Labour Government, executive pay rose on average by 13.6% per annum, while the FTSE share index rose by just 1.7% a year. In 2002-03, the bankers bonus pool, which is at the centre of the motion, totalled £3.3 billion. In 2006-07, the year before the crash and everything starting to go wrong, the pool was £11.4 billion. In the year of the crash itself, when all the bankers were staring into the abyss, the pool was £11.5 billion. I do not recall any Minister at the time being worried about the size of the bonus pool or the distorting effect it must have had on executive behaviour.
Mr Holloway
I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman finds this attitude terrifying, but I do, and it is on both sides of the House. We can blame the bankers all we like, but the truth about the problems across the developed world and the reason we are in schtuck is that successive Governments have not been able not to give in to demands to spend more money. In a global economy savvy investors and taxpayers—the best people—run off when they see a lynch mob. This is crazy.
Stephen Williams
My hon. Friend makes an interesting philosophical point about the whole culture that we have perhaps all grown up in over the past 30 years. It would require more than an eight-minute speech in a three-hour debate to deal seriously with those issues, but I am trying to raise some of them. For instance, when considering how to respond to the outbreak of collective madness on the streets of some of our cities last summer, we should recognise that some of what he says is relevant to the feelings of dislocation and despair that some people felt, but it was also about out-of-control remuneration, lax regulation and complacent political oversight. Opposition Members do not like me saying this, but I say it every time and will say it again: a previous Labour Business Secretary, Peter Mandelson, said that new Labour was intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich. Because of that, we saw the dislocation of director and shareholder interest.
Stephen Williams
No, because I have given way twice and I have a time limit, and the hon. Gentleman took rather a long time making his opening speech.
All of this happened under the previous Government, and the coalition Government are now having to clear up the mess. We have heard once again that all that is needed is the magic wand of the bankers bonus tax but, as my hon. Friend the Minister has pointed out, in every year of this Parliament, under the coalition Government, more money will be raised—£2.6 billion—from the permanent levy on the banks’ balance sheets. It is the behaviour of the banks, and their boards in particular, that needs to change, rather than necessarily the pay and remuneration of their employees, which I remind the House is now taxed at a higher rate than it was when Labour was in government.
The behaviour in the boardroom needs to change, especially in the remuneration committees. As I understand it, the Walker report, which is mentioned in the Opposition’s motion, simply recommended that remuneration of bank employees over £1 million should be disclosed in broad pay bands, which is hardly revolutionary.
The Merlin agreement, an interim measure while we await the implementation of more wide-ranging banking reforms, now states that a bank’s five highest-paid executives, as well as its chief executive and chairman, have to disclose their remuneration, so at least seven people each year now have to do so. That is the highest number in any global financial centre and more than in the United States, and, as the Minister pointed out, bonuses at the banks that are under effective state control, such as Lloyd’s Banking Group and the Royal Bank of Scotland, are limited to £2,000 in cash, with anything beyond that having to be offered on a deferred basis in shares.
My right hon. Friend the Business Secretary has responded to the High Pay Commission with a series of measures that were announced a couple of weeks ago, and central to those is changing the behaviour and composition of the remuneration committees, so that on the forward pay agreements that they recommend for approval they have binding votes: not the advisory votes that were in place under the Labour Government, but binding votes, so that shareholders really are empowered to make a difference and to instruct directors, who are supposed to have stewardship of their investments in those companies.
That will end the revolving door, whereby executives of one company become non-executives and sit on the remuneration committees of another, and whereby inevitably it is in everybody’s interests constantly to bid up pay in each quoted company. Indeed, they will also have to state how they have involved and consulted employees of what, in many cases, are global companies.
Labour, in its manifesto at the most recent general election, said—I had someone check this for me before the debate—that it would
“strengthen the 2006 Companies Act where necessary”.
I remember that legislation, which, along with the Crossrail Bill, was probably the least popular Standing Committee on which a Member could sit, because it was such a fat Bill and its proceedings went on for so long, but there was nothing in it proposing the regulation of corporate pay. Throughout the previous Government’s 13 years in office, they did little to act on that issue, and despite the huge legislative opportunity that they had in 2006 they did not seek to strengthen shareholder power.
The manifesto went on to state that Labour would strengthen the UK stewardship code for institutional investors so that they would have to declare how they vote on remuneration policies, which in turn should be approved by directors. It was silent on the interests of employees, and the shadow Business Secretary did not say much about that this afternoon, either. He certainly did not commit to having an employee on the board of every company.
It is the behaviour of the banks, not just their remuneration policy, that needs to change. One of the first acts of the coalition Government was to set up the Independent Commission on Banking. We have now had the Vickers report, but in our proceedings on the Financial Services Bill, which received its Second Reading last night, we went through all those issues, so I shall not go through them again today.
We also need a change of behaviour at company annual general meetings, whereby shareholders really engage with the power that they have over their companies. Recently I met the charitable group FairPensions, which is urging institutional investors, the pension fund managers who act on behalf of many of us, our constituents and local authorities, to use their power at company meetings in order to control executive pay and to act as responsible investors.
Some hon. Members may have noticed that I tabled early-day motion 2678 last week, supporting the Move Your Money UK campaign. Mr Speaker, you and I are of roughly the same political generation—although from different points on the spectrum. We would first have become involved in politics during the 1980s. So we would have been students at the time of the Boycott Barclays campaign, and indeed I had a Boycott Barclays poster up on my bedroom wall as a student. I suspect that you did not, Mr Speaker, but people of my generation will remember that the behaviour of consumers can make a real difference to the behaviour of companies, so I urge all hon. Members—I hope this is a cross-party issue—to support my early-day motion and to urge all our constituents as consumers to consider the behaviour of companies when they use their purchasing power as well as when they exercise their power as shareholders.
There has been systemic failure for quite some time, as the Opposition Front Bencher at least acknowledged. There was reckless behaviour by Mr Goodwin, but there was reckless behaviour also in the Cabinet room by the last Labour Government. The coalition Government are clearing up the mess. We are putting in place regulations and legislation to control pay policy, to introduce transparency into the implementation of that policy and to regulate the banks so that we have a sustainable financial services sector and sustainable banks, which are so essential to supporting the businesses that are required to grow our economy.
Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab)
No one can seriously doubt that Britain urgently needs fundamental banking reform, but what has been done so far, since the crash of 2008-09, is timid beyond belief. Hardly any of the factors behind the crash have been effectively dealt with. Extreme light-touch regulation left too much to the markets; a vast global market was created in credit derivatives, which were not well understood but were recklessly securitised throughout the world because of their huge profitability; the selling frenzy was stoked even further by enormous bonuses, which drove the recklessness; the banking structure was so over-concentrated in the lead banks that, when disaster struck, they were judged too big to fail, with catastrophic and desperate consequences for the national budget and debt; and the business model linked speculative investment with retail deposit-taking, with the former as well as the latter protected by an implicit taxpayer guarantee.
All those problems, which were familiar to all of us, need to be dealt with, but none has been, partly because of the intransigence of the banking lobby in resisting reform, and partly because of the weakness of political supervision. That makes another crash quite likely, but if there is one we might find it much more difficult to get public support for a bail-out.
First, no significant action has been taken to curb complex financial derivatives, which were, perhaps more than any other factor, central to the collapse. Derivatives are the obvious candidate to trigger the next crisis, because they add opacity and leverage to the financial system. The obvious requirement is transparency, and in the United States that was provided by the Dodd-Frank Act, which requires that all derivatives be traded across public exchanges. We all know that in this country some highly dubious securities gained a spurious status due to the scandal of the credit-rating agencies, which were paid by the very institutions whose creditworthiness they were supposed to assess. That ought to be made illegal; better still, the function should be transferred to the public sector to ensure integrity and transparency.
Secondly, there is public outrage—even now at this late stage the Government find it difficult to accept it—at a banking system which owes its continued existence to massive Government intervention, paying itself mega-salaries and bonuses, and at the fact that 90% of investment bank profits are, in an age of austerity, directed not at strengthening balance sheets, not at shareholder dividend, not at lower fees for customers, but at gigantic personal pay-offs.
Ministers say that to do what some countries such as France are doing, with a mandatory cap and the removal of the bonus guarantee, is impractical, but there can be no doubt that, if the G20 Governments insisted on limits and made continued liquidity provisions dependent on compliance, no bank could refuse.
Thirdly, to avert financial crises, the Government have placed far too much emphasis on enhancing capital controls, and they have done so in a manner that is unlikely to be effective. At the outset of the 2008-09 financial crisis, almost all financial institutions across the globe had capital adequacy at least equal to, and in some cases even twice as much as, the minimum Basel regulatory requirements. But, despite the near-global collapse of the system under those provisions, Basel III proposed in 2010 that the core top-tier capital requirement be only 4.5% and the contingency capital requirement be only 2.5%. Of the EU's top 50 banks, 45 had already met those requirements, and Basel III does not even require them to come into force until 2019. For the Government to accept that is incredibly feeble. It is far too little, far too late and it reflects the Government’s connivance with the banks in minimising reform.
Fourthly, the Vickers commission proposals that the Government, unsurprisingly, have accepted are weak and deeply flawed. Trying to separate retail banking from investment banking with some kind of internal Chinese walls is doomed to failure because of regulatory arbitrage. Financial institutions always invent ever more sophisticated products simply to get around regulatory controls. That is the argument for a clean break between retail high-street banking and investment casino banking. That would have the key advantage of removing the implicit taxpayer guarantee, which allows financial conglomerates safely to use retail deposits for proprietary trading.
Britain arguably retains the most profoundly dysfunctional banking system of any G7 country. It came closer to collapse than any other in autumn 2008. The banking sector in this country is twice as large, relative to the rest of the economy, as in any other major EU country. It is stuffed with mega-banks that are addicted to property, mortgage lending, offshore speculation and tax evasion. Barclays Capital is only the most obvious example of that. Britain needs a much more diversified banking structure with smaller banks, in particular specialist business banks such as infrastructure banks, housing banks, green banks, creative industry banks and knowledge economy banks.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Does the right hon. Gentleman share my concern and that of many people inside and outside this House over bank charges for the ordinary account holder? The ordinary account holder seems to pay a higher price every time, whereas those at the top of the banks get the dividends.
Mr Meacher
I wholly agree with the hon. Gentleman. The mega-bonuses go along with small businesses having to pay exorbitant interest charges, if they can get a loan at all. The Financial Secretary says that the Government are doing their best with RBS, but why do the Government not tell RBS what level of business lending there should be and what the conditions on it should be?
Margot James
In fact, RBS has a reasonably good record of lending to small and medium-sized enterprises. It just missed its Merlin targets. It launched a new product at the end of last year for businesses with low fixed interest rates, no early repayment charges and no fees for the first three months. It is above the market average for small business loans. Some 40% of all SME loans are from RBS, which is—
Mr Speaker
Order. I say gently to the hon. Lady that interventions must be brief. There is substantial pressure on time and I would like to accommodate Members.
Mr Meacher
The hon. Lady has obviously received a detailed RBS briefing. However, what she describes is very different from the experience of our constituents, who complain about how difficult it is to get loans and about the prohibitive conditions that are attached to them.
I want to make one more point. It is little recognised that 85% of the British public’s money is held by just five banks, which are able to use that money with little or no accountability to the public. Investment in the UK economy therefore reflects the interests not of the public or of society, but of the senior decision makers at the five largest banks. Given that the total gross spending of the banking sector in the run-up to the crash exceeded by far total Government spending, the decision makers in those banks potentially have more spending power to shape the UK economy than the whole machinery of Government. That is a significant fact. In effect, control over the money supply and the allocation of credit has been largely privatised. That is central to Britain’s problems.
Britain needs above all to escape the dangerously mounting deficit in our traded goods account, which in the last two years has been up to £100 billion a year or 7% of GDP. The allocation of credit cannot be left in the hands of private commercial banks, which currently channel only 8% of the money supply into productive investment. Instead, they generate colossal asset bubbles through mortgages and household borrowing.
What is needed is the re-adoption of the rationing of bank credit through official guidance, enforced where necessary through quantitative ceilings. That prevailed successfully in this country until the 1971 competition and credit control measures, which inaugurated the era that said that the market always knows best and in which the deregulation of finance depended almost exclusively on the price mechanism and variable interest rates.
Bonus figures released last week show that the top 1,250 executives in the eight leading London banks received an average of £1.8 million in 2010. That is £34,000 a week. What is really needed in banks, as elsewhere, is whole company pay bargaining, whereby the pay at each level, including at the top, has to pass the examination and approval not just of shareholders, but of the employed staff who are the bedrock of the organisation.
James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con)
Before I was elected to this House, I spent a 15-year career in small business in IT and software, during which I experienced the ups and downs that are typical of start-up businesses. I also experienced the ups and downs of dealing with banks, including the Royal Bank of Scotland.
Entrepreneurs such as me and my colleagues felt that there was a gap between the risks that we were taking as entrepreneurs and the attitude of the banks, with their demands for personal guarantees and other security, and their occasional unwillingness to negotiate credit terms. When I have talked to small businesses in my constituency over recent months, I have heard similar stories about the attitudes of the banks. I hear about foreclosures on viable businesses, sudden unannounced changes to credit terms, and people who have worked hard to build a business being forced to face impossible choices. I welcome the action that the Government have taken to unblock credit and, as the Financial Secretary described, to improve the appeals process when companies feel that they have been badly treated by their banks.
A big gap opened between the banking culture and the entrepreneur and the small business man, and that gap has grown into a chasm. As other hon. Members have mentioned, our banking culture grew up during the boom and the banking industry became disconnected from the needs of the real economy. It became a self-reinforcing culture in which bonuses and rewards simply got out of control. We then had a spectacular bust that took many viable small businesses down with the banking industry.
This debate is important because Britain’s future depends on our building a viable, dynamic, entrepreneurial culture. Jobs growth will come only from a viable culture of small and medium-sized enterprises. Britain’s future depends on our fostering a culture of entrepreneurship, in which people are prepared to take risks to create new businesses. We need a banking sector that is designed to support that vital endeavour. We also need the banking sector to play a central role in rebalancing the British economy. It must help to create the businesses and infrastructure that we need in places such as the black country, part of which I represent. That is why I welcome the Government’s introduction of the banking levy, which will help to funnel investment into areas such as the black country.
The banks also have a wider moral duty to rebuild the British economy after the follies of the boom years. It is therefore right that we take steps to control the bonus culture in British banks and seek to reform the banking sector. That is why I welcome the Government’s acceptance of the recommendations of the Independent Commission on Banking.
However, we must not allow ourselves the indulgence of engaging in anti-business rhetoric or appearing to be anti-business. It is perfectly viable for us to be against the bonus culture that built up but also very pro-business, and it is important that we are. We need to celebrate the success of entrepreneurs, wealth creators and small businesses. As I have said, they represent the future of the British economy and create the jobs and skills that we need for the future.
As I learned in my 15 years as an entrepreneur, business is about profits and cash. However, there is also a moral dimension to business and the capitalist system. One of the proudest moments of my entrepreneurial career was receiving a commendation from Investors in People for how my business managed people. My motivation as an entrepreneur was about both profits and people. In the capitalist system, it is vital that people who take risks are rewarded, but also that they recognise the moral dimension of the capitalist system. We need banks to play a role in building a culture of what we might call “responsible capitalism”, which can promote the entrepreneurial culture that Britain desperately needs to secure its future.
Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)
I rise to support the motion. I will begin with the obvious point, which my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) also made, that however poorly some of our banks behaved, they are an essential part of our infrastructure and will be an essential driver of ensuring that our economy improves. The question, however, is whether we relied on them too much, which has to be answered with a resounding yes. When the crash came, we not only had to bail out some of the banks that had become too large to fail but lost a huge percentage of our revenue.
A wry smile comes across my face when I see Government Members’ crocodile tears for manufacturing industries, because I remember the period from 1979 to 1997, when I was a young man, when a lot of them were responsible for the demise of manufacturing. That ensured that my late father lost his job in heavy engineering and never got back into it.
Although RBS has become a byword for profligacy, we have to recognise that other banks, such as Barclays, did not request or need a bail-out. We know that we live in difficult times, but today the National Australia bank announced a review of its Clydesdale bank and Yorkshire bank. Combined, they employ 8,500 people in this country and have two UK networks, and the NAB is to re-evaluate its UK wing. Cameron Clyne, the NAB’s chief executive, said in his statement:
“It is clear that the UK economy is likely to experience a much longer period of subdued growth with the ongoing sovereign debt crisis in the Euro-zone and the continuing austerity program by the UK government.”
Perhaps the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk), can respond to that point later.
Government Members take great glee in complaining about what they describe as the mess that was left behind, despite the fact that we are nearly two years into their time in government and even though the urgent action that we in the UK took led the world. However, they should remember the saying, “What goes around comes around.” The chief executive of the NAB was actually saying that their economic policies are contributing to the problems that it is facing, because the Government are concentrating on austerity measures, not the growth of the economy. I hope that the Minister will respond to that point instead of jumping over it as the Minister did.
Although I recognise that the banks make a significant contribution to our economy, their reward structure and behaviour have been brought into sharp focus in the past four years. Based on the experience of businesses in my constituency, banks went from a Viv Nicholson “Spend, spend, spend” policy on lending to a Steptoe and Son penny-pinching policy. The businesses in my constituency with which I have been involved tell me that RBS wants to charge them exorbitant interest rates for safe, copper-bottomed business deals and has put itself first instead of looking after small and medium-sized enterprises.
Most outrageously—Ministers should take note of this—RBS stands accused of deliberately putting in place conditions to put businesses out of business, so that it can reclaim their assets at the cheapest price possible. That is an outrageous way for a bank to do business when the economy is in such difficulty. We need to ensure that we keep people in employment so that they can contribute to the wider good.
The remuneration situation is even more bizarre. When my colleagues were speaking earlier, I heard some chuntering among Government Members about the fact that business people who get large bonuses pay their taxes. There are many millions of our constituents who also pay their taxes, and I bet they wish they were getting the remuneration packages that are being given out in RBS.
As a former trade union official, I have negotiated more pay deals than I care to remember. In the civil service, in the early days of performance-related pay, the reward structure was changed from plain salary to salary plus a performance-related element. Irrespective of which bargaining unit I was dealing with, I always asked how performance would be defined and what an individual would have to do to get that additional payment. In 26 years as a lay and then full-time trade union officer, I never got a straight answer to that question. A job is a job, and someone is paid a salary to do it, but in response to that question I was given platitudes such as “We’ll give it to someone who puts in an effort above and beyond the norm”, and “We’ll reward exceptional performance.” However, when we tried to dig a little deeper into what those words meant, answer came there none.
We have to remind ourselves that the salary package that people such as Stephen Hester get is pretty significant in the first place. We therefore need to know the definition of exceptional work that brings a bonus. That needs to be clearly outlined and transparent.
David Mowat
I am a little bit puzzled by the hon. Gentleman’s argument and that of the Labour Front Benchers on bankers’ bonuses and salaries. Are they against bankers’ salaries only, or all very high salaries? He mentioned Stephen Hester, but Carlos Tevez earns five times as much. Why is the Labour party not honest enough to say that it wants higher taxes instead of just focusing on bankers?
Mr McCann
The crucial point that has come through in this debate is that RBS is owned by the public. Up until last week, when Stephen Hester did the right thing and announced that he was not going to accept the bonus, Government Members remained silent. Ministers said that it was up to him, if my memory serves me correctly—if the Minister wants to intervene, I will be happy to allow him to do so. The Prime Minister said that it was up to Stephen Hester. In relation to Carlos Tevez, I am not a Manchester City fan, so I will leave that issue alone. I have enough problems with Glasgow Celtic football club without worrying about Manchester City.
David Mowat
The hon. Gentleman seems to make a distinction between entities that are state-owned and those that are not. Is he therefore saying that if Hester worked for a non-state-owned entity, the hon. Gentleman would be quite happy with his bonus package? That seems to be the implication of his answer.
Mr McCann
There must be responsibility across every business, whether it is private or public. I am not a communist—the hon. Gentleman will be delighted to know that. I do not suggest that we move to the Cuban model and are all paid the same for doing different jobs, as I recognise that people have different contributions to make and should be paid different salaries for doing so. Often, examples that go to the extreme, such as those about footballers, and that go into other systems of capitalism in the country in which they work do not take the debate much further forward. My analogy is between the civil service and the Royal Bank of Scotland, as the civil service is in the public sector as is the Royal Bank of Scotland, because we own the largest share in it. The difficulty we had in defining performance-related pay in the civil service reads across, it strikes me, to the difficulty we have in defining performance-related pay in the Royal Bank of Scotland.
Mr McCann
I think I have been generous enough in giving way, and other Members want to speak.
On bankers’ bonuses, it appears that when the behaviour being rewarded is non-productive—the Royal Bank of Scotland and other banks have not met their Merlin targets and, in each of the past 12 months, they have not met their targets for lending to SMEs—it is surely a case of the emperor’s new clothes. Bankers’ bonuses cannot be based on an opaque set of rules. They are a travesty, a charade and the practice should be outlawed not only in RBS but in other organisations that cannot properly define a performance-related pay system. The era of these unacceptable bankers’ bonuses must come to an end, as we need a direct relationship between reward and performance. Most importantly, the Royal Bank of Scotland has an economic duty to lend to small and medium-sized enterprises to ensure that the economy of our country starts to improve. On that note, I commend the motion and I will support it tonight.
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
I welcome the debate and want to discuss a number of issues that arise from the motion, but, having explored it, I think it contains a strong hint of political expediency and opportunism. To a degree, the Opposition seem to be ignoring part of the history of the UK Government between 1997 and 2010. That said, this is an extremely important and topical issue and the motion therefore deserves proper consideration and scrutiny.
My starting point would be to reflect on where we are today with some of the issues at hand and on what we are trying to achieve.
Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)
Although the reform of banking is important, does my hon. Friend agree that we have not heard today about the importance of the financial services sector and banking as a whole? The sector employs 1.1 million people and contributes 12% of the total tax take and 10% of UK GDP. We should be talking about how to create a strong and vibrant sector that helps to grow the UK economy.
Mr Jones
My hon. Friend makes a very important point and I hope that some of my comments later will enthuse her about my stance on that issue.
Not many people would disagree that we need to move from irresponsible banking practice to responsible but successful banking, from poor Government regulation to effective regulation, from bailing out the banks to getting taxpayers’ money back, from the state ownership of banks to putting them back into private ownership, and from the state guaranteeing banks to ensuring that they stand on their own two feet and are not too big to fail. We need to draw some important distinctions when we consider such matters. There is a distinction between taxpayer-owned banks and private banks and we also need to take into account the taxpayer guarantee. When we consider irresponsible bankers—who now seem to be epitomised by Fred Goodwin, who should not be singled out but seems to be taking the brunt of the blame for all the irresponsibility in the banking industry—there should be a distinction between their type of banking and the more responsible banking that many are trying to promote.
One person who was brought in to try to promote more responsible banking and to get RBS back on its feet was Stephen Hester. He came in and took on a job, and although we might all agree or disagree with the definition of the success that he was tasked with bringing about, the fact is that he was given that definition—I think by the Labour party, when it was in government—and now Labour seems to want to move the goalposts and change the definition of success or failure within his remit.
Margot James
Despite the fact that the opening speech from the Opposition spokesman was couched in such reasonable terms, did my hon. Friend see the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury on “Newsnight”, remarking that Stephen Hester’s bonus was a reward for failure? Does my hon. Friend not agree that that is a gross distortion of the reality? He will agree, I have no doubt, that Stephen Hester has brought many more benefits to RBS.
Mr Jones
I will not give way. We need to be careful that we do not vilify people whom we entrust with such positions—we should not vilify wealth creators, because they are the very people we need to get UK plc back on to its feet.
That brings me on to regulation. The tripartite system given to us by Labour clearly failed; we had banks that were thought too big to fail, with no proper checks or balances on their activity. I am pleased to say that the Financial Services Bill, which had its Second Reading yesterday unopposed, will change that situation of ring-fencing banking, so that we no longer have banks that are considered too big to fail.
That leads me on to other issues, particularly the bailing out of the banks, state ownership of banks and state guarantees for banks. They are all probably undesirable for the taxpayer and it is important that we work to try to reverse the unsustainable position that the taxpayer has been put in. We need to consider carefully how we facilitate our banking and finance industry to ensure that we can try to right the wrongs. One way of doing that is through the regulatory framework, which we are dealing with, but we can also do it through competition. We must be well aware of global competition.
I did not take part in last night’s debate on the Financial Services Bill, but spent some time listening to speech after speech from Opposition Members saying that regulation of our banking system needed to take into account the global situation that our banking industry found itself in. I totally agree, but they must therefore acknowledge in tonight’s debate that our banks must be competitive within that global market. Vilifying our banking and business sectors with an unbalanced argument and approach and putting excessive taxes on those sectors will move us away from having banks that are competitive in that global environment.
That brings me, quite neatly, to the bankers’ bonus tax, which is mentioned by the Opposition time after time. They seem very keen on that tax, which they mentioned before the Government put in place the bank levy, which raises £2.5 billion a year, rather than the £2 billion that the bankers’ bonus tax would have raised. The goalposts seem to have moved again and the Opposition seem now to be advocating that it should be an additional tax for the banks to pay.
Mr Jones
The Opposition’s position is interesting, as we are now trying to encourage our banking sector to lend, particularly to small businesses, to put their balance sheets in good order and to keep bank branches open—we expect them to do an awful lot of things as well as pay additional taxes. We need to be careful about how we approach this matter.
Jake Berry
My hon. Friend makes an important and powerful argument. On the specific point of the Opposition’s proposals for the banker bonus tax, is he aware that it is a tax that keeps on giving, because—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. The intervention is far too long. The hon. Gentleman has just come in; I am not sure whether the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) was aware of that when he gave way. We are short on time.
Mr Jones
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention; I apologise for the effect that time is short.
Lending to small business is extremely pertinent, and it is important that it is in the motion, but we should not forget that we need to encourage our banks to lend to small businesses rather than curtailing lending. One of the most important areas in which we need to do that—it has been mentioned by Opposition Members—is manufacturing industry, but they forget to mention that the reason we are in our present position is that the economy was completely unbalanced and we lost 1.7 million manufacturing jobs under their party.
To conclude, although the motion might be populist bordering on opportunist, it does little to solve the problem of irresponsible bankers and poor regulation. It takes no account of the importance of the banking industry not just to bankers but to the rest of industry and commerce in this country and to the UK Exchequer. It does little to get banks to stand on their own two feet, repair their balance sheets and lend again, and it does little to set out a proper strategy for creating sustainable employment for our young people, an agenda that this Government are now tackling with vigour.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I am reducing the time limit to six minutes, to try to get everybody in.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
I welcome this important debate, the ramifications of which stretch far beyond the banking sector in particular and economic policy in general. The issue of high pay and bonuses is central to the kind of society that we want to live in. I share the disgust and outrage of my constituents at the fact that successive Governments have allowed the incomes of the wealthiest 10% of the population to rise by 37% in the past 10 years while those of the poorest 10% have fallen by 12%, and that the earnings of top executives at Barclays have increased by a stratospheric 4,899% since 1980, while wages for the average worker at the bank have increased only threefold.
We have heard much about a more responsible economic system in recent weeks, and I welcome that debate, but unless that fine rhetoric is backed up with concrete and far-reaching action, I fear that we will merely see more of the same bankrupt business as usual. The first thing we must do to address properly the concerns raised today is ask one important prior question: what purpose do we actually want the banks to serve?
I believe that banks ought to be useful servants of a productive economy and of the new economic, social and environmental challenges that we face. Introducing a statement of purpose requirement for banks and banking activities, in order to allow regulators and customers to assess how much or how little those activities contribute to a productive economy that serves and protects the environment, would be a useful starting point. It has already been done by the German Sparkassen network of community banks, and would go some way towards giving power back to people and allowing them a say in the future of our banks.
The bottom line is that markets alone cannot deliver the kind of banking system that we need—one that is safe and fit for purpose. Governments must step in, and not just when bail-outs are required. Tackling pay at the top end of the sector is an important first step. I support a special tax on bankers’ bonuses, but we should make it permanent. At the top rate of 50%, Labour’s one-off tax raised about £3.5 billion for the Exchequer, but did not do anything like enough to curb the excessive bonus culture, as we now see. Curbing Stephen Hester’s bonus and stripping Fred Goodwin of his knighthood are a start, but let us not pretend that throwing some red meat to the tabloids is a substitute for urgently needed thoroughgoing reform of the banking system. In the absence of major re-regulation, our financial system remains dangerously dysfunctional.
If we are intent on curbing excessively high pay, as we should be, we must recognise that it is not a problem in the finance sector only, and match any action with measures to improve wages at the opposite end of the scale. That means supporting a genuine living wage and considering policies such as a 10:1 ratio between the highest and lowest-paid staff of a company, or a guarantee that no member of staff should receive an annual bonus exceeding the annual wage of the lowest-paid worker in that business or organisation.
I have said that tackling pay was just one part of the challenge. There are many others: 3 million people in the UK do not even have a bank account, and 9 million lack access to affordable credit. Banking reform must address that urgently as well. A universal banking obligation could ensure a taxpayer quid pro quo for future bank support. It would have to cover where banks lend and include a banking code to ensure that everyone has access to essential financial services. A people’s bank could operate via the post office network to address financial exclusion and provide real, fairly priced competition in local communities. A UK community reinvestment Act would ensure that banks lend money where they are prepared to take deposits. We also need to separate banks’ retail and commercial arms properly, not just ring-fence them as the Government plan to do.
Ecological theory suggests that a system is most resilient when it is divided into compartments to protect it from external danger. In order for banks to be resilient, they too should be modular, without excessive connections between them that can transmit shocks rapidly through the system. For that reason, serious restrictions on inter-bank lending and derivatives trading and the reintroduction of exchange controls designed, among other things, to reduce sharply international flows of money between banks should be explored in much more detail.
The next round of quantitative easing may well be announced on Thursday. Recently, I met the man credited with inventing the term. He explained that he was in Japan at the time and wanted to talk about credit creation, but that those words in Japanese meant something different. Credit creation goes to the heart of how the banks operate. The current economic system enables commercial banks and other financial institutions to exert an unacceptably large influence on the economy. Now is surely the moment for us to challenge the virtual monopoly that we have allowed the private banking sector to exercise over credit creation.
One step towards achieving that might be to introduce green quantitative easing. We know that during the last round of QE, the Bank of England purchased £275 billion in Government bonds, yet that money did not find its way into the real economy or help small businesses get loans. Green quantitative easing would inject money directly into the economy, circumventing the paralysed banking system. By purchasing green assets such as solar photovoltaic assets for a nationwide roll-out, for example, we could create far more jobs, stabilise the economy, reinvigorate our local businesses and reduce our emissions.
There are many other things to be said, and I have only 20 seconds left in which to say them. We need diversity on our high streets. We need more community banks and credit unions. We will not get the banking system that we need if we leave it to a monopoly of four or five main high street banks. We need a diversity that we can learn from ecology. If we bring that into our banking system, we might just have a chance at a banking system fit for purpose.
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
It has been interesting to sit in this debate and hear such an extended series of mea culpas from Opposition Members for the failings of the last Labour Government on this issue. Let us not forget that that Labour Government presided over the decline of British manufacturing, under which the concentration of banks about which they now complain took place and the meaning of the word “bonus” became so debased. There is so much for them to say sorry for, and so little time in a three-hour debate for all of them to come forward and repent.
Chris Williamson
I am not repenting, but the hon. Gentleman might like to repent for the fact that the real origins of the problems that we are facing can be traced back 30 years to Margaret Thatcher’s Government. [Interruption.] I can hear hon. Members cheering, but it was Margaret Thatcher’s Government who undermined the manufacturing industry, used financial services as an alternative engine of economic growth, ran down the mining, steel, shipbuilding and car-making industries and totally destroyed manufacturing in this—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. Shorter interventions, as I have already expressed, are the order of the evening.
Richard Fuller
I thank the hon. Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson) for what will appear in print as a helpful intervention.
I turn to the mishmash of observations that the Opposition have called a motion. It might, to them, make a motion, but it certainly does not make a policy.
On the key issues, the coalition Government have already taken sensible steps towards reform: they have found an answer to the mess of regulation by centralising it under the Bank of England; they will implement the recommendations of the Vickers report; and they are introducing changes to the compensation culture so that it can get back to supporting enterprise and rewarding merit, which is what we all want.
The shadow Business Secretary did a good job of holding back the hostile anti-business rhetoric. I just hope that the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury can restrain herself in her usual anti-business rhetoric when she winds up for the Opposition.
Richard Fuller
I would like to give way very much, because the hon. Lady did not get a chance to comment earlier.
Rachel Reeves
The hon. Gentleman is much more generous than his colleague the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones). With long-term unemployment up 157% in Bedford since the start of 2011, does the hon. Gentleman think that the priority should be a tax cut for the banks this year or a programme to invest in youth jobs?
Richard Fuller
That is a very good point. Perhaps the hon. Lady will be interested to know that I am leading the establishment of an enterprise investment scheme fund in Bedford to get local people to invest in jobs and create businesses in Bedford. Government Members believe in practical action to support entrepreneurs and jobs, not the empty rhetoric that we get from Opposition Front Benchers. I invite her to Bedford to see the successes that we are having and from which perhaps her party can learn. The shadow Business Secretary made some interesting points, and I only wish that he had had time to speak more about his idea for moving forward with a UK equivalent of the small business investment company in the United States. That is an interesting direction of travel from the Labour party.
It is always hard in a free society to explain or justify why some people earn more—sometimes fantastically more—than other people. That justification can be secure only when clearly based on merit—the merit that comes from taking a risk that works out or from delivering exceptional performance. It is clear, however, that throughout large swathes of the economy, those two forms of merit have been losing hold in the setting of compensation in our country. My hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris) spoke eloquently about that disconnect between the financial sector and our entrepreneurs. I know that the Government are committed to changing that.
It is sensible to look for measures that focus remuneration more on merit, but that is precisely what the Government’s recommendations seek to do. The problem with the speeches from Opposition Members was that they could not define the problem that they were trying to solve. Were they trying to solve the problem of compensation in state-owned enterprises? Were they trying to solve the problem of compensation in banking? Were they just hostile to high compensation generally in the economy? They could not define the problem owing to the different points of view among Opposition Members. Some call for a return to the rhetoric of the 1980s, attacking people for earning too much money and trying to draw false and upsetting comparisons between people who get paid a lot and those who cannot find a job.
In this country, we need to support the risk takers and the entrepreneurs to create the jobs that people in my constituency and constituencies around the country want. The promotion of an anti-business rhetoric will be harmful. As my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) said, the reaction to Mr Hester’s bonus sent the unwanted signal to business that this country was anti-business. As many have said today, Members on both sides of the House have a responsibility to make it clear that that is not the case and that we all want business to be strong in our communities.
Strengthening shareholders’ responsibilities will be central to that. One of the perhaps unintended consequences of the raid on pension funds by the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) was to weaken the ability of shareholders, particularly pension fund holders, to hold boards to account over remuneration. There was a change in the ownership of shares, which increasingly went offshore, while those custodians of long-term interests—our insurance companies and pension funds—had their voices and representation weakened on boards. It is right, therefore, for the Government to consider in detail how to strengthen shareholder representation and control over compensation in general.
Several speakers made the connection between banks and support for small business. I ask the Government to be bolder in looking for alternatives to banks in meeting the challenge of financing our small businesses. We need to consider ways of growing bond markets for small business, and we need to go even further than we already have by adopting innovative schemes for promoting equity financing for our small and medium-sized businesses. There is no more honourable a thing for people with money today to do than putting it into equity and our small businesses, and the Government have already provided tax incentives for them to do so. I only encourage the Minister to do more.
On credit easing, will the Minister be cautious about the ability of Governments to stimulate the economy in the short term? By the time that Governments get round to deciding what to do, often the problem has passed. However, credit easing presents another opportunity, which is to use financing, through a credit easing facility, to reduce some of the long-term debt obligations in this country. As the Minister knows, I have spoken before about the possibility of using either some or all of the credit easing financing to create a future fund and unburden the next generation of taxpayers of some of the tax that would otherwise be needed to meet the unfunded public pension liability. We must look to the long term when considering how to fund our small businesses, and not always think that the Government have the answer in the short term. They rarely do.
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
The hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) said that we must reward the risk takers, but is not the problem and the reason for this debate the fact that the risk takers took too many risks with the world economy and completely destroyed it, and that while destroying the world economy, they got massive bonuses, pay and entitlements to which they were not entitled? That is why we need to look at these risk takers, who he says are the wealth creators.
Opposition Members have no problem with business or with people who want to work hard, achieve, create jobs and stimulate the economy, but it is important to remember—this is what this debate is about—that, as the Leader of the Opposition said in his party conference speech last year, there are producers and there are predators. As always, those comments were taken out of context, but what he talked about is what the Prime Minister now talks about: responsible capitalism and responsibility in society.
In the light of that, we are having this debate, which is not surprising—in the light of that, we are having this debate. I repeat myself because it is important to know why we are having the debate. As my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) said, this debate on the crisis is timely but, more importantly, the question is: how do we prevent the problem from reoccurring? We should be concentrating on that, instead of the point scoring that we have seen.
We realise that there have been problems with the regulation of the banking and the financial services over the past 20 or 30 years. As my hon. Friend said, the Opposition have accepted responsibility and acknowledged that the Labour Government could have done more to regulate the sector, but as has been pointed out no one in the Conservative party at the time complained or argued that regulation should be tighter—if anything, they asked for even less regulation. Nevertheless, they continue to say, “We didn’t do anything.” We have accepted our mistakes, but Government Members made them as well. Furthermore, as everyone knows, the relaxation of regulation started in the ’80s, when a Conservative Government were in power. It is about time that they apologised for getting this whole thing going.
I do not want to get into a party ding-dong. I want to talk about what we can do to help to create a situation in which businesses and banks can work properly and the country can prosper. The Opposition have argued that the Walker review, which states that, if a banker’s remuneration is more than £1 million, that information should be published, should be implemented as soon as possible. That, coupled with the recommendations of the independent High Pay Commission, should be implemented in full, with investors and pension fund managers required to disclose how they vote on remuneration decisions, so that those paying into pension funds know where their money is going. Additionally, to boost transparency, the Government should publish figures setting out the largest pay ratios.
Another thing that we should be doing is using our influence in the banks in which the taxpayer has a stake to restrain excesses and promote good practices. Where the Government—the state—have discretion, they should intervene, such as with Network Rail recently. We should introduce a framework for fair pay across the economy, including through employee representation on remuneration committees and measures to enable greater shareholder activism. We should repeat the tax on large bank bonuses and use the money to get 100,000 young people into work. In tough times, when there is less money around, fairness matters more than ever. Instead of providing leadership, the Government have been dragging their feet on tackling excessive pay and rewards for failure. They have taken 20 months to come forward with any plans, and they are delaying even those that they are implementing. That is in stark contrast to the autumn statement, which took three times as much from families with children as it did from the bankers.
As we know, Robert Jenkins, a member of the Bank of England’s interim Financial Policy Committee, told the Select Committee on the Treasury:
“Every £1 billion of less bonus would support £20 billion of additional small business lending.”
I urge the Government to act on that, and to support Project Merlin—which we do not think has been as successful as it should have been—to ensure that the banks involved in the scheme lend more. Evidence has shown that investment and credit lending by those banks has decreased by 6% in real terms, whereas investing and giving more credit would be a real step to boost the economy. At the end of the day, some of the banks have been bailed out with public money. They and the Government should be doing more to—
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)
In opening the debate, the shadow Business Secretary stressed the importance of a strong financial sector and called for a new culture, given the high pay and excessive bonuses that we have seen. Many of us on the Government Benches agreed with what he said in that direction and with the overall tone that he struck. He was asked how much money had been given away in bonuses under the last Government. According to my figures, £66 billion was paid out in bank bonuses under the last Government. Much of that was encouraged by the last Government, for the massive tax revenues that it generated, with more than 50% coming back to the Exchequer.
Much has been made of the linkage between businesses and bank lending, but I would dispute that. We need to see much more lending to small businesses, but, as I explained in an intervention, the reason for the current lending issues is not just that the banks will not lend. Opposition Members do businesses a disservice by continuing to promulgate the myth that banks will not lend, because one reason that businesses are reluctant to approach banks is that they think they will be rejected. We must not engage in too much rhetoric, accusing the banks of not lending, when RBS, for example, grants 85% of the loan applications that it receives from small and medium-sized enterprises.
Mr Umunna
First, I accept that the reason there is not as much lending to SMEs as one would expect is not just because of the banks, but because of people’s confidence in the economy—one might argue that the Government’s policies have had an effect on that. Secondly, I pointedly made it clear in my speech that it is not just a question of the banks not getting the money out of the door to robust, profitable businesses; rather, it is a question of their relationship with their business customers in this day and age. Often, people are put on the phone to some person in a regional office who knows nothing about their business and is therefore not in a position to assess the risk properly.
Margot James
First, on the causes of why businesses are not seeking loans to invest, that has much more to do with the eurozone crisis and the global economy in general. For any company seeking to export, there is a general nervousness across the world—not just in the west, but in China and the far east. Secondly, I agree with the hon. Gentleman about banks losing a lot of skills over the past 10 to 20 years in managing their business customers, but I see signs of change. I visited Barclays in Birmingham a couple of months ago, and I sensed the real commitment, along with an upgrading of skills, that that bank—to name one—is making to its business customers.
Steve Brine
I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend’s speech. Further to her discussion with the shadow Business Secretary, there are new entrants to the high street lending market, which I think, without name-checking them and giving them the publicity, will shake up the “Computer says no” culture. [Hon. Members: “Name them.”] Virgin Money is coming on to the high street, and it will shake up that culture. Sometimes we are in danger of talking about just the traditional high street banks and lenders, when there are new entrants coming into the market that will really shake things up and change things.
Margot James
I thank my hon. Friend for that excellent intervention. Indeed, I attended a Virgin-sponsored event last week at which its youth capital fund was launched, to try to get money available for young entrepreneurs as seed finance, so I very much agree with his point.
The Opposition want us to raise taxes—again—to fund a youth unemployment initiative, but I strongly object to the motion. We cannot do enough for youth unemployment—I agree with that. It is an absolute scourge in my constituency, so I am pleased about the new proposals we are seeing, with the youth contract getting £1 billion in funding, which will create 410,000 work opportunities for our young people. We are also seeing record numbers of apprenticeships across the country. I would therefore argue that the Government are doing all they can to support young people back into work, which I absolutely agree is a challenge facing us all.
I want to speak on behalf of taxpayer interests, because we all own a stake in two of our high street banks. I also want to talk a bit about the protection of our tax revenues, as well as employment in the financial services sector, because I fear that by raising yet another tax on bonuses—on employment, essentially—we are jeopardising that investment. The shadow Business Secretary is the acceptable face, perhaps, of the Opposition, but many other Opposition Members, including the shadow Chief Secretary, the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), alighted on one individual—Stephen Hester—a couple of weeks ago, repeating the mantra that “It’s all about rewards for failure.” The record really ought to be set straight when it comes to RBS. She should not judge the performance of that company just on the share price, and she is peddling a half-truth when she does so. She should look at the repair of the company’s balance sheet and the extensive disposal programme undertaken by RBS, which is on track despite incredibly difficult market conditions. The capital ratios have been improved, with SME lending by the bank making up 40% of total bank SME lending, which is higher than its market share. This country and its taxpayers would be dealt a mighty blow if the chief executive, Stephen Hester, were to react to the terrible publicity that he has had to endure by leaving that taxpayer-owned bank. Who do the Opposition think would want to take his place, after all that has happened?
On the question of the bonus tax—I shall choose my words carefully—I feel that taxes are plenty high enough already. The Opposition are proposing to raise them even higher, however. On any employment income at the level of bank bonuses, the higher rate tax of 50% applies. With employers’ national insurance and a degree of personal national insurance on top of that, the effective tax rate on some of those bonuses is already more than 60%. Let us not forget, too, that under the Government’s proposals, everything in a state-owned bank bonus apart from £2,000 in cash has to be deferred and taken in shares. If the individual then sells their shares, that will incur capital gains tax at the increased rate of 28%.
I shall finish by issuing a warning to Members on both sides of the House. In the days of the last-but-one Labour Government, under whom I grew up in the 1970s, the top marginal rate of tax was 98%. Do the Opposition really want to take us back to those times, during which enterprise was absolutely stifled?
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
I had not intended to speak in the debate, but Lloyds TSB has today announced 300 job losses in Scunthorpe, as part of 1,000 job losses across the country. That is on top of the 30,000 job losses that have been announced by that organisation over the past three years. I want to talk about the importance of the banking sector in our communities as a provider of jobs and services at local level. Too often, the debate is about the banks and bankers at national level, and that has been well covered in today’s debate, but it is important that we also remember the value of the banking sector within the communities that we represent. Another case in point in my constituency is the announcement by HSBC that it is to close its branch at Kirton-in-Lindsey. It is the only branch for 9 miles, and its closure will have a significant impact on the way in which that community manages its business.
The hon. Member for Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris) made a thoughtful and insightful contribution to the debate. He drew on his experience of the disconnect between the banks, on the one hand, and the small and medium-sized enterprises and the communities of which they are a part, on the other. He said that it was possible to be anti-bonus but pro-business. There is unity across the House on that point. We need a better and more responsible capitalism that better serves the people of this country. Excessive pay and rewards for failure are bad for shareholders, bad for the economy, bad for society and bad for business. I hope that the people listening to the debate, in the banking community and in the communities that we serve, will recognise the importance of banking as a provider of services and jobs in our communities, and as an engine of the growth of this proud nation.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
There are some basic questions of fairness that people in Britain feel strongly about, and we have to reinstate that fairness. In 1979, the top pay at Barclays was only 14.5 times that of the average pay. It is now 75 times higher. Did people not want to work at the top of Barclays then? Did they not want to work hard for their bank? I think that they did. The problem is that the top levels of pay have accelerated to a level that no one considers fair. The suggestion that, if we do something about that, people will go elsewhere and that we will be unable to recruit seems strange. The hon. Member for Stourbridge (Margot James) spoke of a time when personal tax rates were higher, but people were still prepared to do those jobs here. We cannot go on accepting the mantra that they will go elsewhere—
Sheila Gilmore
They did not go, and the banks did not collapse. They recruited chief executives and board members.
In fact, in 1979, the inequality gap, as measured by the Gini coefficient, was at its lowest in the entire post-war period. Does that matter? I suggest that it does. If I were an employee of Barclays, working as a teller or in a back-room job, my motivation to work hard would go down as I learned about the huge disparities in pay. This is not about jealousy, or about feeling that people should not be able to earn. If we want people to accept, as we have suggested, that we cannot increase public sector pay in the way that we want to, and if we are all in this together, it has to be fair. That is primarily what the motion is about. Those who do not support it will find that, rather than wanting to dig in and be “all in this together”, people will be dissatisfied and demoralised, and our businesses simply will not grow.
Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)
It is right and proper that we have had this debate in the House this afternoon. Today, we have shown that the concerns of the country are the concerns of this House. But I am sorry and disappointed—notwithstanding the fact that the Business Secretary is at a funeral—that no member of the Cabinet has been willing to attend the debate. I am disappointed—[Interruption.] Oh! I am sorry! The Education Secretary has arrived. I am not sure how long he has been here—[Interruption.] Five minutes, apparently.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. The Education Secretary has been here for some time, actually, and he has been heckling, even though I have asked him not to. He is also still a member of the Cabinet, and he is in the Chamber.
Rachel Reeves
I am disappointed that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has not been willing to explain the Government’s failure to follow through on the Walker review’s recommendations on transparency and high pay. I am disappointed that the Chancellor has not been willing to explain why they oppose the inclusion of ordinary workers on remuneration committees. I am also disappointed that no Cabinet Minister has been willing to come to the House to defend the tax cut that this Government are giving to banks this year.
People up and down the country are amazed when they read about individuals receiving bonuses in a single year that amount to more money than most people will see in their entire working life, especially at a time when families are struggling to make ends meet, when small businesses are finding it hard to access finance, when people are finding it hard to get a job, and when many young people are struggling to get their first job.
The “Oxford English Dictionary” tells us that a bonus is
“a sum of money added to a person’s wages as a reward for good performance”.
It goes on to say that a bonus is
“an extra and unexpected advantage”.
It is clear, however, that for a few, bonuses have come to be expected, an automatic part of their pay. Whatever their performance or that of their businesses, bonuses can be cashed, year in and year out. That seems to be the case even when the share price is falling, even when thousands of jobs are being lost and even when lending targets to small businesses are not being met. And this is happening in an industry that is significantly supported by us, the taxpayers, and that risks rapidly losing the trust and confidence of those it is supposed to serve, because of the actions of a few at the top.
Let me speak plainly. Labour Members recognise the importance of the financial services sector to our economy. A high proportion of jobs in my constituency are directly or indirectly dependent on the continued success of Leeds as a financial hub. Private sector employers whom I meet tell me time after time of the critical importance of bank finance to their ability to grow and employ more people.
The financial services industry is, and must remain, a strong part of the British economy. It offers an opportunity for Britain to play a positive role in the global economy and it plays a critical part in supporting the small businesses that could be and should be the driving force of our economic recovery. That makes it all the more important that Members are not afraid to approach the banking sector as a critical friend—not afraid to deliver home truths or the views and perspectives of the people we represent.
In expressing public concerns about excessive bonuses, we must remember that the vast majority of people who work in banks earn modest salaries. Those I know in Leeds are on salaries of £20,000 or £30,000 a year, and they find these six or seven-figure bonuses as shocking and alien as the rest of us do—especially a few years after failures in the banking sector brought the global economy to its knees.
These are the concerns we have heard in contributions to today’s debate. It must be a matter of regret that throughout this afternoon, save for the Education Secretary, no Cabinet member has been here to hear them. It is a shame that no Cabinet members were present to hear the passionate speeches by, for example, my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), whose constituents are fearful this evening for their jobs. It is a shame that no Cabinet Minister is going to respond to the concerns expressed in the passionate speeches of my hon. Friends the Members for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann), for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) and for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) or of the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). Those Members spoke about the increasing disconnection between a small number of people at the top of the banking sector and the experiences and values of the rest of the country. This disconnect must be repaired if we are to strengthen the national purpose and shared interest that we need to get through these tough economic times.
It is a shame, too, that no Cabinet member will respond to the contributions about struggling businesses—especially to the thoughtful contributions of my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey), who spoke about the dysfunctional relationship between banks and industry, which grossly impedes our ability to grow out of the recession, and of my right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher), who forcefully rebutted an intervention suggesting that the banks are lending. That suggestion was totally out of touch with the experience of small businesses in all our constituencies. The reality is that many businesses are being refused the loans they need to tide them over or to keep people in work. We all need a banking sector that lends, supports small businesses and acts as a sector that we can trust and rely on.
We also heard contributions from the hon. Members for Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris) and for Bristol West (Stephen Williams), which I thought added important dimensions to today’s debate. I want to pick up on the contribution by the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones), as he would not let me intervene when I tried to do so earlier. Both he and the hon. Member for Stourbridge (Margot James) seem to disagree with the decision of the RBS chief executive to hand back his bonus, when I had thought that every Member of every party would welcome that. The fact is that the chief executive of RBS earns a salary in excess of £1 million a year—46 times more than the average worker. That should be reward enough for doing his job; he should not be getting a bonus of £963,000 on top of that when few others could expect to earn that sort of salary in a lifetime.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
Will the hon. Lady explain the Opposition’s policy on creating growth in the financial sector? We have heard a great deal of criticism about everything, about how dreadful bonuses are and all the rest of it. That is fine, but what is Labour’s policy for growth, for being creative and for going forward?
Rachel Reeves
We have argued a five-point plan for jobs and growth—to put money in the pockets of ordinary families with a VAT cut and a national insurance holiday for small businesses that are struggling to take on new workers. Those are the sort of policies that will get the economy moving again and will protect jobs in all our constituencies.
We should welcome the RBS chief executive’s decision to hand back his bonus. The reality is that, over the last year, the RBS share price has fallen, it failed to meet its lending targets and it laid off workers. As I said, I would have thought a salary in excess of £1 million reward enough.
Today’s debate, however, is not about one man or one bonus or one bank; it is about the need for an overhaul of the way in which bonuses and pay are structured. As my hon. Friend the shadow Business Secretary has spelled out and as many contributions have highlighted, issues of pay and performance—of individuals and of the banking industry as a whole—cannot be separated.
Banks need to show that they recognise the need to change, the need to reform their business models, the need to rebuild their relationships with small businesses and customers and, most of all, the need to restore public trust. The British people deserve a banking system that they can believe in and respect—a banking system that inspires trust and is seen as a responsible custodian of our earnings, our savings, and our pensions. I know that the majority of people who work in banks at all levels also want to feel proud of the job they do, so today’s debate is about beginning to restore that trust and integrity.
Opposition Members have set out clear, constructive proposals in three key areas: transparency, accountability and fairness. [Interruption.]On transparency, the Labour Government legislated for the implementation of David Walker’s recommendations on high pay, including for rules to disclose the numbers of employees paid over £1million a year. [Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Lady, but Members are holding conversations in the Chamber, but they expected others to listen to them when they made their speeches. I expect Members who want to conduct private conversations to do so outside the Chamber and not in it.
Rachel Reeves
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I think that some Members do not want to hear the truth.
Transparency would give shareholders the vital information they need to rein in excessive remuneration, but what have we seen from the Government? No answers and no action. On accountability, the High Pay Commission has recommended the inclusion of an employee on company remuneration committees. We have called on the Government to legislate, but what have we had? No answers and no action. Yet again, on the matter of fairness, when banks continue to award bonuses beyond most people’s imagination at a time when everyone else is being squeezed, why will the Government not do what is right and tell the banks that if they continue to pay out large bonuses, they will impose a tax to ensure that some of that money comes back to the taxpayer? Hundreds of thousands of young people have been looking for work for months and even years now, struggling with the consequences of a crisis that was caused by the financial services sector for which they are paying the price. That is the real crisis our country is facing—the crisis of more than 1 million young people out of work, but what do we see from this Government? We see no answers and no action.
On transparency, on accountability and on fairness, our constituents want answers and they want action, so why do the Government not take responsibility? At the end of the day, it comes down to priorities. Labour’s priorities are those of the British people: of families facing a squeeze in living standards, of the 1 million young people trying to find work and of the thousands of good businesses trying to stay afloat.
By contrast, this Government’s priorities are increasingly clear: a tax cut for the banks and a quiet life for the Cabinet. Well, we can tell the Government that this issue will not go away. We will continue to raise the concerns of voters and if this Government will not take the necessary action, the public will draw this conclusion—that this out-of-touch Prime Minister just does not get it, that his Cabinet colleagues do not get it either and that the Labour party is the only party that does.
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)
We have heard 11 interesting contributions from Back Benchers, although I cannot say that the last contribution was either interesting or, indeed, informed. I should begin by drawing the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.
I have to say that the last contribution was in sharp contrast to the more emollient tones of the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna), who actually admitted—I think for the first time from the Dispatch Box—that Labour got it wrong on this issue when it was in government. What is not clear, however, is whether he cleared those remarks with the shadow Chancellor. It seemed that this set of remarks was new to a number of faces on the Back Benches.
We heard very good contributions from my hon. Friends the Members for Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris) and for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) and excellent contributions, too, from my hon. Friends the Members for Bedford (Richard Fuller) and for Stourbridge (Margot James). We heard an interesting contribution from the Chairman of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey), who pointed out that it was my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable)—[Interruption]—who, notwithstanding the shouting and screaming from Labour Members, highlighted the existence of real challenges and problems when his party was in opposition. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will be happy to acknowledge that.
Let me begin by making it clear that this Government have an absolute commitment to addressing excesses in the banking system that were allowed to go unchecked and unregulated for much of the 13 years before we came to office. It was a system in which light-touch regulation and record bonuses were encouraged by a Government who were keen to reap the rewards. Since coming to office, we, as a coalition Government, have made a return to responsible banking a key priority. We have taken concerted action to ensure that, in return for extensive taxpayer support, banks must once again live up to their obligations to support the wider United Kingdom economy.
That is why, as my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury pointed out, we are discarding the discredited tripartite system and implementing the recommendations of the Vickers commission. It is also why we are actively supporting the flow of lending to businesses, especially small businesses, so that they can gain access to the finance that they need if they are to invest and grow. We on these Benches passionately support the entrepreneurs and hard-working small business owners who create the wealth and jobs on which the rest of us rely.
There has been some discussion about the Merlin agreement this evening. Let us be clear about that. Under the terms of the agreement, the five major UK banks committed themselves to making £190 billion of new credit available last year. Of that new lending capacity, £76 billion was dedicated to small and medium-sized enterprises, which would be a 15% increase on the previous year. The latest figures, for the third quarter, show that the banks are broadly on track. At that point banks had lent more than £157 billion to UK businesses, 11% above their implied target, and three—Barclays, Santander and HSBC—have all made recent statements to the effect that they have met their Merlin targets. We await the final figures, but that is good news that we should bear in mind.
Moreover, a report from my Department, to which the motion refers, reveals—although I did not hear this from Labour Members—that three quarters of SME employers are being given the loan or overdraft they request. My hon. Friend the Member for Stourbridge rightly pointed out that it is wrong to suggest—as some Opposition Members do—that no small firm can obtain a loan.
Mr Prisk
I will not give way. The hon. Gentleman spoke for 45 minutes, which meant that Back Benchers did not have a chance to contribute to the debate.
I understand—we understand—that to the 25% of SME employers who do not obtain that loan or overdraft, the fact that 75% do will be no consolation. That is why the Chancellor is taking decisive action to provide some £21 billion, £20 billion of it under the national loan guarantee scheme, which will be available over two years and will allow banks to offer lower-cost lending to smaller businesses. [Interruption.] Notwithstanding the chuntering of Opposition Members, that scheme is supported by the Federation of Small Businesses, the British Chambers of Commerce and the CBI. The details will be made clear in the next few weeks.
Mr Prisk
No, I will not give way to the hon. Lady. We heard a diatribe of clichés from her, but we heard no policy, no original ideas and no original thoughts.
We are also making available an initial £1 billion through a business finance partnership that will allow small businesses to invest through non-bank channels. My hon. Friend the Member for Bedford was absolutely right to say that we should not just consider the bank channels, but should ensure that other players in the market can come forward. My hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen and Rowley Regis—who, unlike many Opposition Members, has actually run a business—was also right to draw attention to the importance of choice and competition. I agreed with the shadow Business Secretary when he said that we should think about the business model and the return of relationship management. I hope that we shall hear some positive contributions about that from Labour, and not just the usual flannel.
The Opposition motion refers to the need for a reform of banking, and to the need for more regulation and responsibility. The motion is right to refer to responsibility; it is just a shame that that was not one of Labour’s policies when it was in government. However, I suppose that it is nice to have a convert, even if the conversion is late in coming.
Yesterday the Chancellor introduced the Financial Services Bill, demonstrating that we would overhaul the regulatory environment that we had inherited. The Bill’s principles are important: responsibility, prudence—I think we may remember that word—and sustainability. That means addressing the old system of excessive and irresponsible levels of pay.
As we have heard this evening, under the new FSA remuneration code we have ensured that bonuses will be deferred by at least three years and linked to the performance of employees and companies. Through the disclosure regime, we are providing more transparency than we ever saw from the Labour party when it was in government. Bonus levels are already starting to fall. As we heard earlier, last year they stood at £6.7 billion, just half as much as when the shadow Chancellor was the City Minister in the last Government.
This evening’s debate has also dealt with the wider issue of executive remuneration. The Government strongly believe that successful people who work hard should be properly rewarded. It is vital that, in a debate about the excesses of a few, we do not give the impression that enterprise and endeavour are unwelcome in Britain; but, sadly, quite a few Opposition Members simply do not understand that. We need to make our message clear. The Government are determined to work with businesses to reform executive pay, and to do so in a way that strengthens business in Britain in the long term. As was alluded to but never actually examined by the hon. Member for—
Ms Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab)
claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).
Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.
Question agreed to.
Main Question put accordingly.
Backbench Business
(12 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Metal Theft
(12 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Before we start this debate, may I inform the House that 20 Members have asked to speak in it and we are going to start with a time limit of five minutes? May I ask Mr Graham Jones, who is going to introduce the debate, to speak for no longer than 10 minutes?
Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House notes that metal theft is becoming a serious issue for the UK; welcomes the Government’s announcement on introducing a cashless system and higher penalties; is concerned that the comprehensive package of measures which is needed to address this issue is not being introduced at the same time; believes that to effectively stamp out metal theft there needs to be a radical change in how the scrap metal industry is regulated; and calls on the Government to introduce a number of additional measures as a matter of urgency, including a robust licensing scheme for scrap metal dealers to replace the present registration scheme, a licence fee to fund the regulation of the licence, greater police powers to close unscrupulous scrap metal dealers in line with alcohol licensing, police authority to search and investigate all premises owned and operated by scrap metal dealers, use of photo identification and CCTV to identify sellers of scrap metal, and their vehicles, vehicle badging for mobile scrap metal dealers, and magistrates’ powers to add licence restrictions and prevent closed yards from re-opening.
First, may I express my thanks to the hon. Members for Dudley South (Chris Kelly) and for Worcester (Mr Walker) for co-sponsoring this topical Back-Bench debate and to the Backbench Business Committee for allowing Members of this House to debate this issue tonight? I also wish to mention my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson), who first raised this issue back in 2010. I understand that just last night, in the other place, metal theft was once again the subject of much discussion.
Metal theft is at epidemic levels. Industry is being hard hit by daily thefts and the general public are not only horrified at the escalation and cost, but disgusted at the theft of Britain’s heritage; reports of war memorials being desecrated have shocked the nation. We have seen lifeboat stations without communications, and last month Llandough hospital in Wales had to cancel 80 operations because of cable theft. Remote rural broadband services across Britain are too frequently knocked out. The Energy Networks Association claims that there has been a 700% increase in theft from the energy networks between 2009 and 2011. The Association of Chief Police Officers conservatively puts the cost at £770 million. I believe that a lack of accurate reporting—there is no specific crime code—probably means that the true cost is higher, but Deloitte puts the figure more conservatively at between £260 million and £600 million.
Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
Is not one of the key factors the disproportionate relationship between the value of the metal being sold and the cost of replacing it? For example, manhole covers are being sold for a few quid but the cost to Sandwell council of replacing them is £400, and it is losing 40 or 50 of them a month. A similar comparison can be made between the price of the cable that is being stolen and the disruption to travel. Should not the penalties reflect that cost rather than the value of the metal?
Graham Jones
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right and many in the House will share his view.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Graham Jones
I would like to make some progress, if possible.
The British Transport police state that there are eight attacks on the transport system each day, and that is of grave concern. Ecclesiastical Insurance reported that in 2011 there were 2,500 lead thefts from church roofs. Perhaps most shockingly, the War Memorials Trust estimates that one memorial is vandalised every week in the UK, and for only a very small amount of metal. Today’s debate is a reminder of the urgent need to tackle this scourge and of the importance of doing so; with the Olympics around the corner, it reminds us of the threat to essential services. Paul Crowther of the British Transport police described metal theft as
“the second biggest threat to our infrastructure after terrorism”.
Nigel Martin, the head of supply at Wessex Water, has said:
“Any one of these cable thefts can turn into a civil emergency.”
The Government’s response so far has been unclear. My comprehensive Bill was rejected, despite its forensic drafting by the Public Bill Office—I wish to thank the people there. The announcement of a ban on cash trade and the introduction of unlimited fines for those trading in stolen metal are welcome steps. However, the Government’s announcement misses key elements that underpin the success of a cashless payments system. First, a robust licensing system is required to overhaul the inadequate and flawed Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964. Secondly, and as importantly, we need a UK wide taskforce to gather best practice and to bring together the key partners: the United Kingdom Border Agency; Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs; the Environment Agency; local government, the National Crime Agency; banking; local police forces; and, importantly, industry. Those bodies need to come together in a positive way to tackle this scourge.
Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)
My hon. Friend mentioned church roofs. Is he aware that insurance companies now have a £5,000 limit and will pay out only on that, but in most cases that does not get anywhere near covering the cost of the stolen lead?
Graham Jones
I am aware of that, and it appears that that figure is falling as a result of the escalation in lead thefts from church roofs. That is of some concern, especially as insurance is very hard to come by for some of the churches that have suffered.
The measures in this motion were agreed by the affected industries and, importantly, by members of the all-party group on combating metal theft. However, the Government’s two announcements somewhat sit in isolation, and that is where the concern lies. The Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill is an unsuitable legislative vehicle, so we need to move beyond it. It appears to be have been commandeered at the 11th hour and, unfortunately, no other measures have been allowed to be added to it. The Bill passed through this House only last November and notably absent were any measures to tackle metal theft. That raises further questions about this House’s ability to scrutinise last-minute amendments from the Lords.
In November, the Chancellor announced a £5 million pilot which has been started in the north-east—Operation Tornado. However, it will not report back until July, when the Olympics begin and Parliament starts its summer recess. I am concerned about that, as the approach being taken all seems a little disjointed, and I appeal to the Minister to bring coherence to the Government’s strategy.
Metal theft is a very particular type of crime. That is because, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) said, its effects are disproportionate to the impact it has on other people; stealing £20-worth of metal can cause £100,000-worth of damage. Such a theft can remove a war memorial or result in the loss of life, and it cannot be calculated in financial terms in some cases. A theft in the Dartford tunnel area caused £29 million-worth of damage and a recent metal theft in Glasgow caused a further £14 million-worth of damage, including the part closure of a hospital.
Metal theft is also a very particular type of crime because the effectiveness of policing it is limited; the nation’s metal estate is so vast that there is not a police solution. The Government must look more intelligently and co-operatively if we are to “design out” the problem. We are talking about a failure of regulation and of joined-up working, not of policing.
Graham Jones
I have only 10 minutes available and I would like to make some progress.
In 2010, only 21 people were proceeded against under the 1964 Act, and only 18 were found guilty and sentenced. Of these 18, 10 received a fine and eight were given a conditional discharge. The average fine was £379, and only once was the maximum of £1,000 used. I welcome the response by the Home Secretary on sentencing and the comments of Keir Starmer, the Director of Public Prosecutions, who recently said that the Crown Prosecution Service would be taking a “firm stand” against metal thieves and would spell out the level of public disgust to judges.
Unfortunately, I am never shocked by the scale of criminal activity in the scrap metal industry. Cash is king for one reason and HMRC needs to wake up to that, as the Treasury is losing millions in revenue. A sting article in the Daily Mail last week exposed the size of the problem in the industry, as 40% of the dealers approached accepted metal that the undercover journalist told them was stolen. Shockingly, none of them reported this alleged crime to the police, and this is simply not good enough.
Two previous sting operations by BBC London and The Daily Telegraph have shown that those cases are not isolated. The measures called for in the motion will support honest dealers who play by the rules. Without those changes, the dishonest and the criminal will have a commercial advantage. I welcome the story of a south London scrap metal dealer, Stuart Nebbett, who is donating £21,000 to replace stolen plaques from war memorials in south London.
The industry needs reform. Last night, in the other place, the Minister stated that a robust licensing scheme would be brought in “as soon as possible”, but I should like to know when and how. I do not want to see any drift on this matter or any relaxation of tough regulation. The way to deal effectively with this crime is to choke it off at the point at which it enters the system, before war memorials can be laundered through apparently legitimate metal dealers and before all traceability is lost. Legitimate dealers are being infected through actions at entry-level points in scrap metal trading. The public need a commitment from the Government that they will introduce a full licensing scheme funded by a licence fee. That is the first step towards fully legitimising the scrap metal industry and is a prerequisite to the introduction of cashless payments, as it would provide a robust legal framework with traceability at the heart of the process, particularly by giving magistrates the power to add licensing restrictions.
There is also a need for increased powers for police to enter, search and close the premises of those suspected of dealing in illegally obtained scrap metal. At the moment, they require a warrant to enter premises that are not registered by the local authority. It is important in identifying stolen metal entry points that the Environment Agency waste carrier notices are enforced and that other agencies and, crucially, the public can identify itinerant traders and, at the other end of the scale, illegal containerisation with the introduction of vehicle badging.
The robust measures called for in the motion are one half of the solution, but good practice is the other half and I am concerned that we might turn a blind eye to good practice should we regulate the industry. Together, those two kinds of action will free up scarce resources to deal with displacement of the crime and to allow the agencies involved to shift resources to the hardcore criminals who will seek to divert their criminal activities away from regulated scrap metal dealers.
I conclude by affirming that the House wants to know what the Government are going to do and when they are going to do it. Lord Henley said last night in the other place that
“as soon as possible…by whatever legislative means is appropriate, we will bring forward the further amendments that need to be made, particularly to the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964.”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 6 February 2012; Vol. 735, c. 54.]
I welcome those comments. If the Government do have a clear strategy, I hope that the Minister will be able to make that clear and provide a road map and timetable for regulation. At the moment, it appears to the industry and those outside it that this might be policy on the hoof.
Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con)
My interest in this vital subject was sparked by the near-nightly chronicling of metal thefts in the black country by the excellent six-nights-a-week Express and Star newspaper, which is the most widely read regional paper in the country. As the global price of metals such as lead and copper has climbed higher due to surging demand in emerging economies such as China, so the number of reports of metal thefts in local newspapers in my constituency has increased. Having studied the impact of this particular crime, and having set up with my friend the hon. Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) the all-party group on combating metal theft, it is my belief that most stolen metal is laundered within a few miles of where it is stolen. The most obvious reason for this is that the opportunist, unprofessional thief does not have the means, inclination or transportation to move several tonnes of stolen metal. Therefore, a car, pick-up truck or van-load of metal is usually weighed in at the nearest scrap yard that is known to pay cash with no questions asked.
Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that many of the vehicles that transport stolen metal have been filled with red diesel that was also stolen from the place where the metal was stolen, so it is actually a double theft?
Chris Kelly
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. There is certainly a loss to the Exchequer and one often finds that the vehicles are uninsured and have no MOT. There is often criminality at all levels in this area.
I have a number of scrap yards in my constituency and there are many in the Dudley borough, the majority of which are run by law-abiding people who would not dream of laundering stolen metal for cash. I have visited one such dealer, Hudsons of Dudley in Brierley Hill, to see how the legitimate side of the trade operates. However, I suspect that the concentration of metal dealers in the Dudley borough and the black country has made my constituency and neighbouring constituencies a metal theft hot spot.
Legitimate metal dealers have told me that yards they know of are regularly visited by youths carrying bags—often sports bags or even supermarket carrier bags—containing copper wire that is promptly weighed in for cash. I have even been told of a metal dealer’s customer record book containing the name Mickey Mouse and the address Disneyland, Paris. That reinforces my view that metal is usually sold within a few miles of where it has been stolen. A youth carrying copper wire in a plastic bag to a scrap yard clearly is not a professional, licensed or regulated commodity dealer who is monitoring the market, moving stock and options around, buying when the price falls, selling when the price rises and transporting metal between supplier and customer in liveried, professional fleets of vans and trucks. That is not to say that everybody who sells small quantities of metal for cash on a regular basis is handling stolen goods, but it is clear from police reports, infrastructure, energy and transport networks and insurance company records that much of it is stolen.
The problem of metal theft was becoming so acute in my community that last February I arranged for the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), to meet a delegation of metal dealers and business people from the black country. They came down to the House to meet the Minister and his officials to discuss measures to combat metal theft, and Mr Hudson of the aforementioned Hudsons of Dudley was one of the business men present. One of the problems we discussed with the Minister was that a legitimate metal dealer cannot compete with the cash-in-hand payment of a dealer who is prepared to launder stolen metal. A legitimate dealer paying the market price and declaring everything to the tax authorities cannot compete with a dealer who is prepared to pay cash and who does not declare all that he or she should to the relevant authorities.
It seems to me that there are only two reasons for wanting cash payments in business. The first is that one is prepared to launder stolen goods, with the cash rendering the seller untraceable, and the second is that one wishes to avoid the all-seeing eyes of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. In some cases, it may be both. I know from my time in business that the use of cash is actively discouraged today. There are sensible but quite onerous reporting requirements in place to prevent money laundering and tax evasion by companies. There is also a massive security risk while the cash is on the company’s premises—typically an ordinary office and not a bank-like building with all the necessary security features—and while the cash is being transported in the footwell or boot of, say, a company car and then on foot from the parking bay to the local high street bank to be paid in. It is high time that this industry was modernised and properly regulated. I am a natural deregulator, but this is one industry for which, as the Home Secretary said in her written statement last week:
“Cash transactions…are often completed without any proof of personal identification or proof that the individual legitimately owns the metal being sold. This leads to anonymous, low-risk transactions for those individuals who steal metal. In addition, the widespread use of cash facilitates poor record keeping by the metal recycling industry and can support tax evasion activity.”—[Official Report, 26 January 2012; Vol. 539, c. 26WS.]
Having spoken out several times about metal theft, I have received representations from the British Metals Recycling Association, which appears to make the sole argument that eliminating cash from the metal trade will drive the illegal trade underground. First, I would hope that no members of an organisation such as the BMRA would knowingly be involved in laundering metal above ground. Once stolen metal enters the chain of supply it is hard, if not impossible, to trace, and once it has been melted down it is virtually impossible to trace. That is why it must be prevented from entering in the first place through measures such as those we are calling for in the motion. Large metal recyclers cannot verify the source of every ounce of metal they process, and stolen material is undoubtedly laundered lower down the chain, ending up in domestic use or being exported to fast-emerging markets abroad.
Secondly, there will always be a small minority of rogue traders willing to launder stolen metal. The Government’s recent actions will not completely eliminate metal theft—hence the need to go further and faster, as we have called for in our motion—but I confidently predict that outlawing the use of cash will do much to reduce dramatically instances of this particular crime.
Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab)
May I begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) on the way he introduced the debate and on the lead he has shown on this important issue? I congratulate also the other authors of the excellent motion we are debating. This is an important time for tackling this issue.
I start my brief remarks by congratulating the Government and agreeing with them on some of what they are doing. I agreed with the Home Secretary when she said last month that people who deal in stolen metal are criminals “pure and simple.” Yes, they are. I also agree with the crime prevention Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, the hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire) when he said last year that metal theft is not “a victimless crime.” No, it is not.
My constituents would agree with both those statements, particularly if they use the east coast rail line, where cable theft seriously disrupts services at least once a week. Tynemouth residents would agree too, because they are angry when war memorials are vandalised or cowardly thieves steal commemorative plaques from seafront benches. They ask why it is taking such a long time to get to the right place on the matter.
The Government sometimes stand accused, particularly by Opposition Members, of going too far, too fast, but on this issue they are not going far or fast enough. For example, when the pilot scheme to tackle metal theft in the north-east was announced—Operation Tornado—I sincerely welcomed and supported it, but there was an earlier pilot, Operation Fragment, in 2009, and when I asked the Home Office in a parliamentary question whether any evaluation of that pilot had taken place since the election, the Government said that they were learning from previous operations.
The Home Office then announced a metal theft taskforce, which sounds very much like the metal theft unit in the Home Office that was disbanded. Yesterday in another place, the Government announced that they are considering legislative changes, but as my hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn said, he has introduced a private Member’s Bill that is fit for purpose, so the Government need consider no further.
It is baffling. Why has it taken so long to act? Was it because after the general election Home Office officials were told to disregard everything that had gone before and start a year zero policy? Has the Home Office, like the Justice Secretary, been convinced of the view that in a recession crime will inevitably go up? It did not go up during the 2008 recession and it does not have to be inevitable now. Alternatively, did the Home Office fail to see the link between commodity prices and theft and thus what was coming?
What can be done? Certainly cashless sales and increased fines will help, but the answer is not reform of the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964, but its replacement. The police need real powers to enter scrap yards and to close premises if necessary.
Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)
I am enjoying my hon. Friend’s speech immensely. I am sure that, like me, he goes on operations with his local police force, and if he has not done so, he should. I have sat outside a scrap yard in my constituency with police officers, observing the arrival of vehicle after vehicle that was known to the police. They know the criminals are there, but they are powerless to do anything. Does my hon. Friend share that view?
Mr Campbell
Yes. It is important that we give the police powers to do something about that situation. If I was sitting outside a scrap yard in the circumstances my hon. Friend describes, I hope I should not just be there with police officers. I hope I would be there with people from the Department for Transport and the tax office. If people are breaking the law by illegally selling and buying scrap metal, they will be breaking other laws. It is important that officials work together in what used to be known as the Al Capone approach—if we cannot get them for scrap metal sales, get them for something else.
We need to license scrap yards, which is important not simply to crack down on illegitimate dealers, but to protect legitimate businesses, because as we have heard, they are being dragged down by some of the practices elsewhere. Criminals must pay for their crime, not just through increased fines but by our making sure that when they are convicted, their assets are seized.
The Government need to act quickly to get a grip on the problem. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn said, they cannot even give a proper estimate of the cost to the public purse and to the community of metal theft. Figures vary from Deloitte’s estimate of £220 million to £770 million. That is a big gap and I am not sure even those figures give a proper view of the scale of what is going on. Nor can the Government say in how many cases assets are seized after conviction of the perpetrators.
I shall be genuinely interested in hearing the Minister’s response. She is the fifth Minister in this Government to deal with the matter, so I hope she will bring focus and action. The answer is in the motion. I hope the Government accept the motion and that they implement it as soon as possible. They could make a good start by indicating this evening that they intend to take up the private Member’s Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn.
Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con)
Metal theft has been a major issue in Derbyshire. Since October alone, more than 800 crimes have been reported. Fortunately, Derbyshire police have taken the issue to their heart. Operation Calanthia has led to 63 arrests and I am delighted to say that people have been arrested for the metal thefts in Smisby and Melbourne.
However, it is not just my beloved Derbyshire that is suffering; the picture is much bigger, as we have already heard. The most interesting question is what we should do with metal dealers who make cash payments and say that they have robust recording arrangements. We really need to discuss what sort of licensing agreements there should be.
We have good metal dealers in South Derbyshire. They run robust premises.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
As a former councillor, my hon. Friend will know that local authorities, which license alcohol and gambling, are perfectly set up to undertake licensing. I commend to her what is going on in north Lincolnshire where the police and the local council have been working together on a voluntary licensing scheme, which has considerably reduced metal theft over the last six months.
Heather Wheeler
My hon. Friend makes a good point. There are voluntary agreements, but the difficulty is when cables have been stolen, or great big metal electricity boxes—substations. I do not know how on earth people manage to steal these things without anybody noticing.
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) mentioned Lincolnshire, where I too have been a victim of metal theft. My whole home was trashed because thieves stole the boiler without turning off the water. Ordinary people are suffering and we demand that the Government take urgent action. People are fed up. There has been too much prevarication for too long.
Heather Wheeler
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, but how do we have a robust licensing process that is not too onerous and expensive? Local authorities are the obvious people to do it, falling in line with alcohol licensing. That would fit really well. I do not want good professional firms to be penalised by more red tape and more cost, but they have to step up to the plate—no pun intended—and say that we need to clean up the whole process. It is not acceptable for everybody to turn a blind eye to the rogue dealers in all our areas.
My hon. Friend talked about boiler theft. It is a most amazing new theft and I keep hearing about it. People are encouraged to put in new eco-boilers that are very green and efficient. Three months’ later their houses are burgled and the boilers are taken. I suggested to the police that we ought to put identification numbers on boilers, but it would be a huge piece of new bureaucracy, so my good police came up with the suggestion of using SmartWater. It is a very good system, but will we really be putting SmartWater on every church roof? Will we put it on memorials? The situation is quite incredible. [Interruption.] We shall to buy need shares in SmartWater.
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)
St Mary’s Church in Erdington has been robbed four times of the lead on its roof. Does the hon. Lady agree with a parishioner of that fine church who said that it is not until such time as the police have power to put out of business rogue scrap metal merchants that we shall see an end to this scandalous trade?
Heather Wheeler
Absolutely right. One of the most robust statements by the Home Secretary was about her stance on this policy. We have had a green light to say that we have had enough. Our communities are up in arms, and people are suffering enormously. The cost to the taxpayer and communities is beyond the pale. I am delighted that this Back-Bench motion has been tabled, and I look forward to the Minister’s reply. South Derbyshire will be a better place when we finally get this sorted out.
David Wright (Telford) (Lab)
I begin by paying tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) for securing the debate; I am grateful to colleagues from the West Midlands and West Mercia police areas for signing the motion. As Members will know, the iron bridge is in my constituency, so it is appropriate that I should speak. When I left yesterday, it was still there, I am pleased to say. People sometimes call my constituency the birthplace of global warming—I do not know whether that is a tribute or not.
I follow my hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn in saying that metal theft has reached epidemic proportions. It is not a new problem, let us face it: it has been going on for many years. Households face repeated problems, including power cuts. Commuters face delays on their way to work; metal is being stolen from churches, schools, factories, private homes and public buildings.
Robert Flello
One of my constituents recently faced a ridiculous situation. They cleaned their fridge-freezer, put it out by the back door, washed it down and went inside for a cup of coffee. When they came out, they found that it had gone. Does my hon. Friend agree that theft is happening at all sorts of levels?
David Wright
I do, and I shall come on to the gangs who travel round estates taking property from people, often from their premises. Those gangs may do a good job clearing up material that would otherwise be fly-tipped, but they need to do it with permission, and they should be regulated.
I have been contacted by the chairman of my police authority in West Mercia, who told me that there has been an alarming increase in the number of recorded metal theft offences. An additional 131 offences were recorded when comparing April to December 2011 to April to December 2010—a 12% rise—and those figures exclude the figures for the theft of catalytic converters, which have risen by 152%, and of lead flashings, which have shown a 92% rise.
Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
My hon. Friend mentioned catalytic converters, which reminds me of a case in Darlington. The owners of Bathroom World—bathroom fitters—had the catalytic converter stolen from their van, resulting in their being unable to fulfil orders and spending £3,000 to replace a piece of metal that was worth just a couple of hundred pounds. There are often consequences beyond the missing piece of equipment itself.
David Wright
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We need to discuss the knock-on effects on businesses and on the wider economy this evening. She makes a valuable contribution.
I understand that in West Mercia, recent offences have been committed at telephone base stations and national grid substations. The view of the police in our area is that the amount of metal being stolen shows that these crimes are being perpetrated by organised criminal gangs who are diverting their activity from other criminal arenas. They are using the cash environment for metal theft to fund other crime, which is extremely worrying. Cash generated by metal theft can be diverted into other crime, including organised crime. Those arrested often have previous history for distraction burglary and rogue trader offences. That organised component of criminal activity is significant.
We have heard that the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 is no longer adequate for the modern day, and we need a licensing regime, as Members have said. I shall come on to that. Metal theft is dangerous. The British Transport police report a significant increase in cable theft, and say that from April 2010 to 31 March 2011 there was a 70% increase in such theft. It is one of the biggest crimes that the railway industry has to deal with. It puts people’s lives at risk, and it costs the economy a fortune. In the Wales and Western BTP area, thefts, including attempted theft and malicious damage, rose from 369 in 2009 to 549 in 2010.
As I said earlier, public buildings are being targeted, and we have all heard stories of churches and chapels being targeted for metal theft. I was listening to Radio 4 as I travelled down from Telford yesterday, and I heard about the issue that my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) raised in an intervention. The loss that ecclesiastical insurers are willing to cover is £5,000 on a church building—£10,000 if an alarm is fitted to the roof. The problem, however, is that the scale of metal theft is enormous, and it costs tens of thousands of pounds to replace the metal stolen from church buildings. It is impossible to secure an entire building with an alarm system, so there is a serious problem.
I find it disheartening that people would want to steal from religious buildings, but it does not stop there. Some metal thieves really know how to plumb the depths. I said earlier that metal theft is not a new phenomenon, and my family has experience of that. A number of years ago, thieves stole a commemorative plaque relating to my wife’s parents from the crematorium in Shrewsbury. How low can someone go? They have to stoop pretty low to do that kind of thing, but some people are trying to stoop even lower. As we have heard, they are stealing metal from war memorials that commemorate people who made the ultimate sacrifice for our country. [Interruption.] I will not give way again, because I am running out of time.
I am pleased that steps have been taken to protect war memorials. SmartWater, which has been mentioned, is based in my constituency. The company is working to ensure that memorials are protected by using a water product to place a chemical signature on them. It is invisible to the naked eye, but it can be traced. However, as we have heard, it cannot be put on everything. It can be put on certain artefacts, and it can be used internally in buildings. People can also buy it to use in their home.
We have to get rid of the cash environment for metal. We have to make sure that people process sales through cheques, BACS or other credit systems, and we need a more robust licensing regime. Banning cash transactions on its own will not be enough. We need better licensing arrangements to tackle metal theft. We need tougher police powers. The police need the capacity to go into scrap metal dealers’ yards, inspect the premises under the licensing regime, and tally off sales, matching what has been spent with payments to people coming in. It is really important, and the Government need to act.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. A large number of Members wish to speak, as can be seen from looking around the Chamber. I know that everyone wants to try to speak in this important debate, so I am reducing the time limit for speeches to four minutes. Will Members please remember that interventions add time to those four minutes? They help the person on their feet; they do not help the Member who is still waiting make a speech.
Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)
I would like to start by congratulating the hon. Members for Hyndburn (Graham Jones), for Dudley South (Chris Kelly), for Worcester (Mr Walker) and for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) on securing this Backbench Business debate on a subject that undoubtedly has an impact on constituents of every Member of the House. The scale of metal theft has rocketed in recent years as the price of scrap metal has risen. For example, the price of copper has risen by more than 200% since the end of 2008, and by more than 400% since 1997, so the incentive to steal it has increased significantly over the past 15 years.
The problem is most acute on the railways. In 2010-11, 35,000 rail services were either cancelled or delayed as a result, at a cost of over £16 million. Theft has cost Network Rail £43 million in the past three years, and the Association of Train Operating Companies estimates that the knock-on effects cost the wider economy between £16 million to £20 million. However, the problem is certainly not confined to the railways. Churches, other religious buildings and monuments have become easy targets for thieves. Metal theft has cost churches in Manchester over £1 million in the past five years, including in my own constituency, where the lead was stolen off the roof of one of the church buildings in Southern cemetery twice in one month. Since 2007 there have been 480 claims from the Anglican diocese, and Ecclesiastical Insurance, which covers the insurance of churches, paid out more than £8.5 million in 2010.
Local authorities and water companies fare no better. Thames Water estimates that metal theft costs it £1.2 million each year, and Wessex Water claims that it has cost it £1 million since 2010. Manhole cover theft costs North Somerset council £40,000 a year and Newham council £60,000 a year. In Manchester we have a particular problem with the theft of drain gully tops, so much so that they are now replaced by a non-metallic alternative. In fairness, the local council is quick to respond to reports of missing gully tops, but their theft is a real hazard to the safety of cyclists, pedestrians and motorists, as gaping holes are created on the road next to the pavement.
In November last year the Transport Committee undertook an inquiry into cable theft on the railways. Its conclusions were not altogether surprising:
“A key factor to the increase in cable theft is the ease with which illegally obtained copper cable can be sold on and laundered into the legitimate trade. The Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 is inadequate to regulate the modern industry and reform of this legislation is necessary.”
Clearly the scrap metal trade is the weak link in efforts to combat metal theft crime. The Committee’s recommendations were not dissimilar to those put forward in the motion, and ultimately these additional steps might be required finally to bring about a reduction in scrap metal theft.
However, there has already been a swift response from the Government. In November they provided £5 million to establish a dedicated metal theft taskforce that will improve law enforcement on the illegal sale of scrap metals. Moreover, the Home Secretary laid a ministerial statement before Parliament only four days after the Transport Committee’s report was published. The statement proposed amending legislation and creating a new criminal offence to prohibit cash payments for the purchase of scrap metal and to significantly increase the fines for all offences under the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964, which regulates the scrap metal industry. That will be done by amending the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill—
Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) and other hon. Members on their work to secure this important debate on the epidemic of metal theft. In the short time available, I would like to concentrate on the work of the Transport Committee on its recent report on cable theft on the railways, to which the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech) has already referred.
Cable theft on the railways is an escalating problem of increasing importance. First, there is the disruption. Last year alone over 35,000 national rail services were cancelled or delayed, which meant 3.8 million passenger journeys thwarted. Secondly, it costs the public purse a great deal of money. Network Rail estimates that it has paid £43 million out directly over the past three years, and there has perhaps been an additional £20 million cost to the economy. Thirdly, lives are at risk. The British Transport police have said that 10 people lost their lives last year because of cable theft, and the problem is escalating.
What is the solution? The solution lies in a package of measures. First, more preventative action is needed. Network Rail can do more to prevent theft by having better surveillance, burying cables, using alternative materials and using traceable technology marking such as RedWeb. There should be stricter licensing and regulation of scrap metal dealers and stronger enforcement of the conditions of that licensing; proof of identity for those selling metals at scrap metal dealers should be made compulsory; there should be better surveillance, including CCTV, when transactions take place; there should be records of those transactions; and cashless trading should be trialled.
Nadine Dorries
Much of that work can be done in conjunction with the police and local councils. The Localism Act 2011 gave new powers to those councils that are prepared to go the extra mile and implement procedures for some of that work, so some councils, such as Central Bedfordshire, are already doing some of that work. I accept that more needs to be done, but councils can go some way already.
Mrs Ellman
I thank the hon. Lady for her comments and recognise what she says, but the Committee advocates a compulsory system of registration, stronger licensing and enforcement, too.
There must also be an increase in police powers to enter sites and to search them. There should be new offences, such as aggravated trespass on the railways, to make the theft of metal on the railway something for which thieves consider they will be apprehended. That requires more funding—more funding for British Transport police and for other authorities. Operation Tornado, which is being undertaken in the north-east of England, is to be welcomed, but it is a limited and voluntary scheme.
This problem is not a new one. Back in 2008 the National Audit Office warned about the problem of metal theft, and during our inquiry we were told that the industry thought it was better to keep quiet about it. None of us will keep quiet about it any longer.
I note and applaud the Government’s response following the publication of the Committee’s report, and some actions have now been taken, with others promised, but the full package of recommendations has not been adopted, so I look forward to hearing from the Minister how the Government intend to enact the full package of measures that the Committee proposed. We addressed the theft of cables on the railway, but our recommendations apply to the epidemic of metal theft wherever it may occur.
Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con)
I, too, congratulate those hon. Members who have managed to secure this debate. It is an incredibly important issue and, as many Members have said, a big scourge throughout the country.
I also voice my gratitude to the Home Secretary for announcing a couple of weeks ago the end of cash payments in scrap metal yards. It is testament to how seriously the Government take the issue that they are doing something fairly constitutionally important, which is to introduce a law that prevents an entire section of society using legal tender. This is a very welcome move, but we should not forget that important point.
Last week I met the Wyre Forest Safety Partnership, which includes the police, and talked about how we can best help them. It is worth bearing in mind that there are plenty of laws available to prevent the scourge; it is just a question of helping the police to gather more evidence in order to implement the law and to effect more prosecutions.
Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con)
In South Staffordshire my local district council has worked closely with the police to crack down on those who collect scrap metal, and it has found an exceptionally large number of vehicles that are not MOT’d, not insured and should not be allowed on the road at all. Is that something on which other district councils need to follow suit?
Mark Garnier
I am grateful for that intervention. Not only are a lot of dealers not insured, but many are not even licensed, and one suggestion from the police in order to deal with the problem is to license those scrap metal merchants who used to be the rag and bone men with whom we will be familiar thanks to “Steptoe and Son”, but who are now more technically minded and have flatbed trucks. So licensing is another measure that could be helpful.
In our talks, the police came up with a number of ideas, and they have been successful locally in Wyre Forest. After seeing 60 offences last March, they managed to get the number down to 17 in November, but I shall give the House a flavour of the anomalies that they mentioned, and discuss some of the ways in which we can help them to gather evidence in order to effect prosecutions.
An anomaly that I found surprising is that the police are allowed to visit licensed scrap metal yards, but need a warrant to visit unlicensed yards. I was not aware that there were unlicensed yards, but apparently there are. That situation favours the unlicensed premises, which is ridiculous. We definitely need to do something about that.
The police would like an absolute offence of possession. One problem is that a scrap yard might have a pile of manhole covers, but the owner can say, “A lorry came in, weighed in, unloaded and weighed out, and I paid them for the scrap difference, not having seen the manhole covers that were hidden at the bottom of the lorry.” That is a reasonable defence, apparently. The police would like the law to be changed so that the possession of stolen goods—clearly, manhole covers will probably be stolen—is an offence in itself. That would put the onus on the scrap metal merchant to explore the contents of the load, rather than just check its weight. That is incredibly important.
My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley South (Chris Kelly), who I think has slipped off to get a cup of coffee, mentioned the walk-in trade. It is one thing to be able to photograph vans and their licence plates when they come in. It is another thing when youngsters come in, perhaps saying that they are apprentice electricians, with bags of copper wire, because there will be no record. A ban on walk-in trade would be incredibly important.
Finally, there is the concept of specialisation. There are two sides to this argument. The first, which the British Metals Recycling Association pointed out when I met it a couple of weeks ago, is that some large companies that have a lot of scrap metal, such as utility companies and Network Rail, deal with 500 or 600 organisations to dispose of their scrap. If they were to limit that to just a handful of organisations, we would know, if rail track were found in a yard that was not a specialist rail disposal yard, that it was stolen. Similarly, the police suggest that some yards might want to specialise in certain areas, so that people know that they will deal only in cable, for example. That is an idea. I am not sure that it is workable, but I certainly think that it should be considered.
Clearly, this is a big problem and a lot of people are keen to sort it out. The sooner we deal with it, the better.
Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) on securing this debate and on his tenacious approach to this issue from the outset. I was a sponsor of his ten-minute rule Bill in November; he has not rested on his laurels since.
As colleagues have said in this debate and in previous exchanges, there has been a huge increase in the theft of cable and other metals. The exponential rise in thefts requires an equally robust legislative response, which the Government should be pushing through, but instead they are trying to catch up with the momentum given to this issue by Opposition Members. Although legislation will not stop all such crime—it never does—it would make it more difficult for criminals to profit from their ill-gotten gains and make it easier to track and prosecute those responsible. Nobody should be in any doubt that the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 needs to be updated. We did not have things such as CCTV and SmartWater technology back then.
As we have heard, metal theft is not simply a matter of the illegal sale of stolen scrap; its consequences can have profound knock-on effects. Without a tougher regulatory framework, trains will continue to face disruption because of missing signalling gears and cables, electricity supplies will be interrupted because of the theft of power lines, and our heritage will be poorer because of the vandalism of plaques and war memorials.
Steve Rotheram
No, I will make some progress.
Even some of our churches have been hit by metal thieves. The stripping of a few hundred quid’s worth of lead has resulted in many thousands of pounds’ worth of damage to the building’s structure. Some churches have actually closed.
This is a serious crime that requires Members to produce a serious and viable solution that increases police power but safeguards legitimate, socially responsible scrap metal firms from financial restriction. We must do all in our power to clamp down on rogue dealers and metal laundering. Unless the Government agree to introduce a form of licensing for metal dealers and insist that anyone producing scrap metal must produce photographic identification, their limited response to a growing problem will be seen as no more than a sop. They need to grant the police and magistrates powers, which must be combined with vehicle badging for mobile scrap metal dealers. Trends suggest that without those necessary safeguards, the problem will continue to grow.
As the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) said, not every dealer in the scrap metal industry is a Steptoe and Son-esque, turn-a-blind-eye fly-by-night. The industry provides a service that is both environmentally friendly in recycling terms and economically beneficial to UK plc. It is estimated that it contributes £5 billion a year to the UK economy, with much of that figure coming from small firms. Our plans would restore confidence and make it a better-regulated business. I firmly believe that there has to be a stronger law enforcement mechanism and regulatory framework in place, so I urge colleagues of all parties to support the motion.
Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)
I am pleased to be able to speak in this timely debate about a problem that has become endemic, and I am grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for finding time for it to be held so quickly. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley South (Chris Kelly) and the hon. Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones), and to the noble Lord Faulkner of Worcester, who has done much to advance the cause of better regulation of the sector. It is good that we have been able to work together on a cross-party basis, and in keeping with that approach I echo the praise we have heard from throughout the House for the Government’s swift action to ban cash payments. However, I wish to make it clear that Members feel that we need to see more.
I need not list the endless disruptions, expenses and outrages that we have seen across the country, because other Members have already done a very good job of doing so. I merely point out a few local examples to add to that catalogue. Last year saw a brazen attempt to steal metal in daylight from the roof of Worcester cathedral, at the very heart of my constituency; a number of long delays on the train lines that link us to London and Birmingham; and, as the hon. Member for Telford (David Wright) pointed out, a huge rise in metal theft reported to West Mercia police. Only today there are reports from the north of the county, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier), of major flooding caused by metal theft after thieves broke into a building and stole just £6-worth of copper piping but left a trail of destruction in their wake. That is a fine example of how the costs of the crime can far outweigh its returns.
No area has been safe from this crime. In a quiet residential square at the heart of Worcester, Britannia square, where for many years my grandmother lived in a nursing home, every front door was attacked and every door knocker removed in an opportunistic bout of metal theft.
Nicky Morgan
One category of theft that has not been mentioned so far in the debate is the theft of gold. That is a particular problem for the Asian community in Leicester and the Bangladeshi community in my constituency of Loughborough. It backs up the point that metal theft is not a victimless crime, because people are having their homes broken into and precious items stolen which cannot be replaced.
Mr Walker
Absolutely. My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. It is not a victimless crime.
The many utilities, train companies, councils and other organisations that have given evidence to the all-party group have all been clear that they do what they can to improve security and mark their property, but there is simply no way to secure all the metal at risk from theft and police every part of the network of which it forms part. Likewise, residents and constituents who might have taken every effort to secure their home and its contents cannot secure the metal fittings on the outside of their home or the lead on their roof in the same way. That is why it was so vital for the Government to act fast to ban cash payments, and I welcome the move to do so through amendments to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill.
I am particularly grateful that the noble Lord Henley has agreed to meet the all-party group, and it is positive that even ahead of doing so he has taken action on one of our main points. Quite apart from the main benefit of closing down the prime channel for metal thieves to dispose of their goods easily, as the hon. Member for Hyndburn pointed out, there is also potential for huge savings to the Treasury by closing down one of the main ways in which some scrap metal dealers have avoided paying VAT.
However, there is considerable concern that a straight ban on cash payments, in the absence of better regulation of the industry, could lead to an increase in black market metal recycling. The industry bodies have made it clear that they feel a proper licensing regime is needed, as have local legitimate scrap metal dealers who have spoken to me. That would protect the good businesses that go to great lengths to check that the source of their metal is legitimate, and ensure that those who failed to do so were put out of business.
It is right, too, that metal theft should be made a specific crime in its own right and it is reasonable, given the many additional problems that it can cause—not least danger of death—that there should be a significantly higher penalty for metal theft than for other thefts. Energy companies have provided a number of examples to the all-party group of power exchanges being attacked, and in Worcestershire gas heating systems for swimming pools were attacked, and had that not been swiftly discovered and repaired it could have resulted in horrific or deadly injuries to innocent passers by. The group estimates that the number of deaths already caused by metal theft stood at around six last year, but the total number could be much higher. This is a crime that, quite apart from its enormous economic costs, has literally been killing people.
I am therefore grateful to the hon. Member for Hyndburn for setting out in the motion a comprehensive list of measures to deal with the issue. They speak for themselves as a comprehensive, common-sense approach to regulating the industry. Having discussed them with police officers, councillors and scrap metal businesses, I am confident that they can be implemented in a way that works.
It would be wrong to pretend that the police have no powers to deal with metal theft already and I pay tribute to the excellent work of West Mercia police in Worcester in targeting this crime and recognise that they have succeeded in a number of instances, most recently making arrests, seizing stolen goods and £3,000 in cash while closing down an illegal scrap metal merchant in a targeted operation last week.
Today’s debate is urgent as we can do more on this issue. It is an example of Parliament working as it should, addressing an urgent problem through cross-party action and a co-ordinated effort through representatives in both Chambers. I congratulate the hon. Members who have contributed to the debate so far and welcome the decisive action that the Government have already taken, but I urge the Minister to consider carefully the well-researched and detailed recommendations in today’s motion as well as the support for them from so many in industry, in transport and in the vital utilities that keep our country going. The economics of metal theft have changed, making it more attractive for people to take a risk and break the law. It is up to this House and this Government to change the equation and put an end to the rise of this crime.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
I support today’s motion, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) and the hon. Members for Dudley South (Chris Kelly), for Worcester (Mr Walker) and for Peterborough (Mr Jackson). It acknowledges that the comprehensive package of measures needed to address the issue is not being introduced at the same time.
Those measures, documented in the motion, are many. It is clear from the motion that Back Benchers in the House do not believe that the Government are doing anywhere near enough to deal with this issue. Metal theft is reaching all-time new heights. In my constituency, as reported in Coastal View and the Evening Gazette, St Leonard’s Church of England parish church in Loftus has had lead stolen from its roof recently, and St Agnes’s Church of England parish church in the Easterside area of Middlesbrough has suffered a similar fate, with copper foil being lifted only this weekend. In 2010-11, the Church of England estate alone suffered £4.5 million-worth of theft and vandalism. In St Agnes’s case, the cost of replacing the copper stolen from the church roof could cost as much as £100,000.
Cable theft is also hampering our infrastructure capability. Since 2009-10, when there were 1,593 incidents of cable theft, there has been a huge increase to 2,712 incidents. In the north-east, cable theft has almost doubled from 593 incidents in 2009-10 to 1,087 in 2010-11. Although the Government’s proposals to end cash payments and increase the fines are welcome, they are only part of what is required. On its own, the ending of cash payments only displaces the problem. In fact the Government can rightly be accused of having good intentions while the breeding ground for further black market activity increases because proper follow-through is not delivered through other measures.
Without other measures, such as those proposed in the motion, yards can simply continue to trade in illegally acquired metals. Without adequate legislation for police entry on site, police force numbers, UK Border Agency funding and staff, vehicle badging and a proper national taskforce, the black market activity in metal theft will persist. Unfortunately, that already happens with vehicles and allows the mobile black market industry to thrive in industrial estates and car parks. Meanwhile, churches, war memorials, rail track, communication cable and industry are picking up the costs. I ask the Minister, is this a question of cost? For me, the real cost of increasing crime, with its consequences for my constituents, is the fact that they will continue to incur higher costs.
More importantly, we need to support legitimate businesses that deal in surplus metals. By not acting, the Government are undermining legitimate businesses. Power cuts, commuter delays, industrial delays and church war memorial desecration are not acceptable and it is now time for the Government to govern, rather than passing the buck, before it is too late.
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
I welcome today’s debate and commend the Members who were responsible for securing it. I want to highlight the scale of the problem in Pendle, where losses from metal theft have risen sharply in recent years. The impact of metal theft, as many Members have said, is not restricted just to the railways, although they are the main victims of the crime. In my area of East Lancashire, in particular, it is having a real and acute effect on smaller businesses.
In Pendle, metal theft has become a major concern of the local council and police. They have both told me that it is now one of their top priorities. The leader of the borough council, Councillor Mike Blomeley, wrote to the Secretary of State in November to describe the problems that we were having in Pendle and call for a ban on cash payments. I am pleased that the Government have announced that that will happen. Councillor Blomeley wants the criminal justice system to focus on the impact of the crimes on individuals and communities, not the value of the metal stolen. I am sure that many other hon. Members would agree that that is the most appropriate approach, particularly given how all our communities have suffered due to metal theft. We have heard from several Members about theft from war memorials and other sites of particular interest.
Andrew Percy
While my hon. Friend is discussing war memorials, I want to place on record the fact that last July in Hull, East Yorkshire, we lost a 6-foot bronze statue, a memorial to dead fishermen—trawlermen who lost their lives at sea—given by the people of Vik in Iceland. Does he share my disgust at that and similar thefts?
Andrew Stephenson
I share my hon. Friend’s disgust. It is a classic example of some of the disgraceful incidents that have happened.
In Pendle, historic churches such as St Mary’s in Kelbrook have been stripped of lead. Boilers, pipes and outside taps have been ripped from both occupied and unoccupied homes. Some businesses that have been targeted are now struggling to cope, putting many jobs at risk. The head teacher of Barrowford primary school told me just today that it cost more than £60,000 to repair the damage caused by lead theft from the school roof. Another example is the town of Colne, where I live. The theft of metal grate covers from back streets has been so great that the Colne area committee has had to allocate a special budget of £5,000 to replace them.
According to figures made available to me by Lancashire police, there were about 2,228 metal theft crimes in Lancashire in 2010 and about 3,400 last year, representing a 50% year-on-year increase. In the whole of 2006, there were only 508 offences. That is a fivefold increase in five years. Lancashire police think that £7 million is a conservative estimate of the value of metal stolen since 2006 and tell me that currently only 13% of offences are detected. Lancashire constabulary confirms that the rise in offending is consistent with the rise in metal prices, especially copper. Officers who have spoken to me feel hampered in identifying stolen metal and frustrated by the light sentences received by offenders who are caught.
An ongoing police operation, Operation Starling, is addressing metal theft in Lancashire. However, the problem is now so significant that it is having a big effect on local crime statistics. Despite a good record on most fronts, the huge increase in metal thefts in East Lancashire makes it look as though the police force are actually doing badly. That is not the case. They are doing a great job, but they need Government support to tackle metal theft.
I will briefly highlight the case of one of my constituents, a local businessman in Colne who has been the victim of metal theft in the past two years. He estimates the losses to his business in the past 24 months at around £100,000. He has been targeted repeatedly. Everything from lead on the roofs to electric cabling inside properties has been stolen. One gang, spotting a “for sale” sign, hit one of his buildings over a bank holiday weekend, taking so much metal that the building, with 80,000 square feet of commercial space, will now have to be demolished.
My constituent attributes the crimes to the increase in metal prices, which we all know are expected to rise even higher in the coming months. He supports the Government’s ban on cash payments and the other steps that we are taking, and thinks that we should consider other measures. I pass to the Minister his suggestion that the Government consider the old 715 vouchers that we used in construction, where tax was paid up front but receipted so traders could claim it back. He feels that a similar scheme should be introduced for scrap metal dealers. The Minister might wish to consider my constituent’s suggestion along with the others that the Government are considering. I urge the Government to continue doing everything they can to support the police and councils in their efforts to tackle the problem.
Mrs Siân C. James (Swansea East) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) on securing this debate.
I am sure that many legitimate yards and dealers take care to ensure that their supplies come from legal sources, but others are not so scrupulous and purchase from less-than-honest individuals. Dishonest scrap dealers encourage theft and provide an easy and quick way for thieves to dispose of stolen metal. It beggars belief that no checks are made and no proof of ownership requested. I believe that these dealers create the market for dishonestly obtained metal.
Nowhere is safe. We have heard about war memorials, church plaques and pieces of metal around and about buildings. They are stolen regularly and monotonously, causing much grief and anger. Many people will recall a news story in the Swansea area where every brass instrument of a well-known local brass brand was stolen. Within hours, each instrument had been paid for and processed by a local dealer. It was all caught on CCTV and had been done from the back of the thieves’ van. What did the poor brass band get back? They got a big lump of squashed metal. Where did the dealer think that this metal had come from? Cable theft has become a big problem in my constituency.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a massive problem with cable theft from the Welsh train service? In my constituency, on the Ebbw Vale to Cardiff railway line, there have been terrible delays for commuters. We need to stop this expensive crime, which has such a corrosive effect and prevents people from getting to work.
Mrs Siân C. James
Certainly. I will refer to that later.
Cable theft has grown. My own office was struck twice just before Christmas, which was of great inconvenience to me and my constituents. Those who have faced the disruption and reality of cable theft are aware of what people are going through. Last weekend, Morriston hospital, a large hospital in my constituency providing services to people from across south Wales, experienced a breakdown in communication connectivity, resulting in a delay in transmitting essential information that I believe could even have put lives at risk.
Every power outage has a severe effect on our communities: ever-increasing numbers of households experiencing cuts in power, more travel delays, and community and recreational establishments unable to open to the public. Both Virgin Media and Network Rail, two of the best-known organisations in the UK, have experienced considerable disruption from cable theft in and around my constituency. In December alone, there were more than 50 metal thefts affecting cable services in Swansea East. Virgin Media has provided me with these figures, and they show a distinct pattern. Thefts took place every other week, with constituents along Neath road, which is a major thoroughfare that you, Mr Deputy Speaker, will know quite well and which is a key access route into the city, experiencing severe disruption and inconvenience to their media and telephone services with monotonous regularity.
Similarly, as my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) alluded to, Network Rail has experienced huge levels of theft. This year alone, there have been 46 incidents, causing more than 22,000 minutes of delay, more inconvenience for travellers and businesses in the Swansea area and more costs for the company. On a UK level, metal and cable theft has caused more than 16,000 hours of passenger delays and cost the rail industry £43 million in the past three years.
It is clear to me and others that we need a much tougher licensing regime for dealers. We have to end this buying-at-the-back-door-mentality and require that anyone selling materials to scrap metal dealers prove their identity and provide documentation on where and when the metal was sourced. Local police are ever vigilant, and they are doing a fantastic job and are working within our communities to tackle this scourge. They have successfully prosecuted people, but I support calls to give them greater powers to investigate and prosecute. Enough is enough. This is an illegal practice that affects us all, and it cannot be allowed to continue. Action is needed and I appeal to the Government: it is needed sooner rather than later.
Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
I congratulate the Backbench Business Committee on securing this debate, and colleagues from all sides of the House on pushing this issue forward. We have heard many examples of what a terrible crime metal theft can be. I know that my constituents, among others, will be completely taken aback by how bad it can be, and by the mentality of someone who can steal a war memorial or a memorial from a park bench. One has to be a certain type of person to be able to commit such a crime. There are also examples of the crime that put the public at risk. They involve the theft of railway lines, telecommunications lines or electrical supply equipment.
Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
Another example, in agricultural areas, is where metal thieves nick gates, which is not only inconvenient, but has the knock-on effect of allowing cattle and horses to get out and cause damage. That costs money, the insurance premiums go up and it all causes massive disturbance.
Mr Spencer
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. One cannot underestimate the potentially disastrous consequences of a herd of cattle wandering on to a railway line. Indeed, rural areas can find themselves particularly targeted. He mentioned agriculture, but rural churches have also been targeted, because they are so isolated and are not overlooked by other properties. Edwinstowe church in my constituency has had the lead removed from its roof seven times, which is simply outrageous.
One way of dealing with the problem would be to improve the legislation. However, I would also encourage English Heritage to consider alternatives. English Heritage forces churches to replace the lead, but if we could find a fibreglass replacement that looks like lead, that would solve the problem and deter the thieves, because the value of fibreglass is zero. Indeed, not only have churches in my constituency been affected, but Newstead abbey, the home of Lord Byron, has been targeted, with its gutters and downrights stolen. Again, we are talking about an historic building, owned by the city council, which has taken the decision not to replace the gutters and downrights because it cannot protect the property in the short term. The council will have to leave that historic building in a poorer state of repair, which is an absolute tragedy.
I am therefore happy to support the motion. I hope that the Government will take the firmest and strongest action. Not only do normal members of the public support that, but the scrap dealers I have talked to—the legitimate businesses—also want us to take action. I pay tribute to my constituent Edward Donnington, a local trader who has been constantly lobbying me to try to improve the way in which such trades are recorded. He is a registered scrap dealer who welcomes the Government’s intervention to try to resolve the issue, because his business has also been targeted. He has had people breaking into his yard to steal his lorry and take scrap from his premises. The legitimate scrap dealers are looking to us to take firm action and clamp down on those involved. The only way we can do that is to stop cash transactions and also to have photographic evidence of those who undertake transactions, so that they can be clearly identified at a later date if something goes wrong.
Before I finish, I want to mention what has been happening in Nottinghamshire. I pay tribute to Nottinghamshire county council trading standards and Nottinghamshire police, as they have taken the issue very seriously. They have put together a local group of all the relevant authorities, to take action and, more importantly, to inform each other about what is correct and what is not, because a normal bobby on the beat might not be aware of some of the relevant issues in those scrap yards. For instance, there is only one registered scrap dealer in Nottinghamshire who can deal in, as it were, railway steel, and only one who is registered to deal in telecommunications cable from British Telecom. If such cable is found in any scrap yard other than the one that is registered, it is clearly in the wrong place and a crime has been committed. It is all about informing those authorities so that there is cross-information, as it were, and ensuring that when someone sees something out of line, they take firm action.
I hope that this debate is a step in the right direction, and that the Government grab this issue and drive the frankly terrible people involved out of the industry.
Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones), the hon. Members for Dudley South (Chris Kelly) and for Worcester (Mr Walker) and others on securing this debate. In the few minutes that I have, I should like to concentrate on one line in the motion, which calls for
“a radical change in how the scrap metal industry is regulated”.
We have heard a lot about the behaviour of the scrap metal man who goes round in his van, hawking and trying to get bits of scrap metal, and who is, as I mentioned in an earlier intervention, not averse to lifting anything that is not nailed down. Indeed, sometimes he goes so far as to rob roofs and memorials, and to commit other shameful acts.
I want to focus on the scrap metal yards, and on one in particular. I would like to be able to say that it is dear to my heart, but it is quite the opposite. It epitomises the worst aspects of the industry, which we need to stamp out if we are to start to regulate it properly. The people who bought the yard put up two buildings in it, for which they had no planning permission. They built them 15 months ago, irrespective of any rules or regulations, to service the end-of-life processing of vehicles. They also put up CCTV columns. The yard abuts a large housing development; it is right behind people’s houses, and the 360 CCTV cameras can look into those homes. The owners also put up lighting columns that illuminate the yard late into the evening, seven days a week. This, too, was done without planning permission.
The owners also built a wall. Regardless of the fact that the existing planning permission for the area allowed for a 2-metre high fence, they built a wall that was higher than that, so that they could pile the scrap higher. Such a fence was banned under the previous planning permission, which they have ignored. They have also built supports for the wall on council land that they do not even own.
The most incredible thing that those people have done is quite recent. Residents in the area have understandably expressed concerns about the noise, dust and vibration pollution that they have to put up with. The noise is terrible; the crashing can be heard from a mile away. To get round the problem, the owners came up with a great wheeze. They constructed a wall of shipping containers, piled three high and welded together. And, yes, this was done without planning permission. Thankfully, the council managed to act quickly, and it issued a stop order that has another week to run.
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is painting an appalling picture of one particular rogue operator. In South Yorkshire, we have the fourth highest incidence of metal theft in the country, and in Sheffield it rose by 46% last year. The acting chief constable has raised the issue with me, and he told me that it is the issue on which we in the House could do the most to support what he is trying to do to crack down on crime. Does my hon. Friend agree that we therefore need to give the police greater powers, particularly powers of entry and the power to shut down rogue dealers of the kind that he is describing?
Robert Flello
I agree with my hon. Friend. We need a complete review of everything relating to the scrap metal trade. We also need to bring in a really robust set of proposals quickly, if we are to eliminate these problems.
The problem is one of identifying the rogue traders. The company in my constituency, European Metal Recycling, says that it is the biggest scrap metal firm in Europe. What a recommendation that is, if it behaves in such a way in my constituency and treats with shameful disdain anyone who lives within earshot of the site. The council got wind of the plan to put up the wall of shipping containers when the company started to prune some of the trees. When council officers went to the site to ask why that was happening, they were told, “It’s just a bit of routine pruning”—but, hey presto, a few days later, up went the shipping containers.
Unfortunately, sorting out the rogues from the good guys is very difficult. We need a robust, detailed system that will cover all metal dealers: the folk who drive round our estates at all hours of the day and night calling for scrap metal; those who walk around with carrier bags full of metal that they have liberated from somewhere; and the supposedly large concerns that trade internationally in the metal that they process. We need a system that will do a proper job of clamping down to ensure that our communities are no longer blighted by this menace.
Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)
I, too, congratulate the Members who have initiated this debate, which, as we can tell by the turnout in the House, is on a hugely important issue. Metal theft will not go away easily. Why? Because it is so worth doing. Some of the figures are quite staggering. While BT’s stock-market value is about £15 billion, the estimated current value of the metal in its cables is £50 billion. There are billions and billions of pounds’ worth of metal in our country, in some cases literally lying around—in the railways, for example. Thieves are now sawing down metal railings, and I recently canvassed a street in my constituency where all the drain covers had been stolen. Making the assets themselves secure is obviously impossible.
Because of the sums involved, the people engaged in this activity run all the way from petty thieves to organised crime. Just as in other organised crimes such as drug dealing, some of the big players will not do their own dirty work; others will be stealing to order for them. We all know that these crimes can cause massive costs and disruption. Recently visiting friends in a village in Oxfordshire, I could communicate only by text in the last two days before the visit because the village had been entirely cut off by the theft of telephone and internet cables.
Shortly before I came into the Chamber this evening, a member of the House staff told me that Norwood library recently had its roof stolen and £2 million-worth of damage was done to books and computers as a result. We have heard other stories from other Members, so I shall not say much more about that. Such stories show that these crimes are far from victimless, as a single theft can impact on thousands of people.
I am vice-chairman of the all-party steel and metal recycling group, and in that role I recently visited two sites of European Metal Recycling, the largest metal recycler in Europe, which has 67 sites across the UK and employs 2,000 people. The notes for my speech state that this is a “highly reputable organisation”, but I might need to speak to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) about that. At its small site in Marske in my constituency, I saw many of the measures mentioned in the motion already in action—for example, documentation, video recording, photo and vehicle identification are routine and there are clear rules about how to check material. The original source might be a council as in the case of road signs or items might be labelled as BT equipment. At its large site in Hartlepool, I saw what a huge-scale operation, including car shredding, looks like.
Companies like EMR support regulation. EMR says:
“All we ask is that the Government takes the necessary time to work with the industry to ensure that regulations are as tightly and effectively drawn as possible and that the necessary level of resource is committed to enforce rigorously once in place. We have had 20 years of increased regulation and poor enforcement in our industry. Without doing both of these things the legitimate industry will be harmed, the illegitimate thrive and there will be little or no impact on metal theft.”
Let me touch briefly on another area—prevention. All people with metal-related assets need to think more about how they can discourage theft. I have already mentioned BT’s franking of its equipment, but a lot more could be done. Energy companies, Network Rail and many others should look at how to make it easy for dealers and enforcement officers to spot stolen material. They must ensure that their legitimate scrap disposal routes are advertised to the industry so that anyone else receiving identifiable material knows that it is stolen. More questions must be asked about the source of the material, such as high voltage cables or transformer equipment. We must make it easy for people to report others that they see involved in this activity.
We should not legislate for the sake of it, but we should ask the police what is necessary—and make the punishments fit the crime. It is time for action and I urge the House to support the motion.
Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)
I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) and other hon. Members who tabled the motion.
Some members of the public have said that the current economic climate and the financial plight in which some individuals find themselves have led to the massive increase in metal theft that we are witnessing. Frankly, I find such a statement to be naive. There can be no excuse for theft at the current levels. I believe that across the House we are united in our determination that something should be done—and it should be done now. As we have heard this evening, the incidence of metal theft has soared throughout the country as metal prices have increased, and we all want the police to be given the powers that will enable them to tackle the epidemic.
The figures given by Members can leave us in no doubt that the amount that individuals are receiving for the stolen metal in their possession represents but a fraction of the cost of replacing it. The weekend before last, ScottishPower reported the theft of power cables from a farm near the town of Castle Douglas in my constituency. In such instances, not only are people put in danger because the cables carry thousands of volts of electricity, but misery is caused to communities and neighbourhoods that are left without power—sometimes for a number of hours—until repairs can be completed.
I know that many other Members wish to speak, so I shall not repeat much of what has already been said. Let me merely emphasise the need to replace the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 and take immediate action to end cash transactions, especially large-scale high-value transactions. Anyone selling scrap metal must provide proof of identity, which must be recorded at the point of sale. We must give the police powers to enter premises and shut down rogue metal scrap yards, thereby protecting decent and legitimate dealers. There are such dealers out there, and they want the House of Commons to act. I also believe, as someone from north of the border, that the powers vested in the Scottish Government will enable it to act in conjunction with the House.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. Six Members are trying to catch my eye. The winding-up speeches will begin at 9.38 pm, so brevity is the order of the day.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
I will try to observe your admonition, Mr Deputy Speaker.
On behalf of the Church of England, I thank the Home Secretary and Ministers in the Home Office for what they are doing. For some time, tragically, lead has been stolen from the roofs of an average of some 10 churches a day. We have heard of many instances from Members this evening.
Whether such a theft is from a church in an inner-city parish or from a rural church, the devastation caused to the local community is enormous. For that reason, the churches and cathedrals division of the Church of England set up a working party which, over a period, took evidence and consulted a number of organisations including English Heritage, insurers, police forces throughout the country, and scrap metal merchants themselves. The working party concluded that the one measure that was needed above all was to take cash out of metal transactions.
Anne Sloman, who chairs the group, the Bishop of London and I went to see Ministers in the Home Office, and I think it should be put on the record that those Ministers listened and acted. I do not understand why Members suggested this evening that Ministers were slow. In my experience, Ministers often say “I understand what you mean, Baldry, and you have a very good point, but we shall have to wait for a legislative slot” but on this occasion, Home Office Ministers reached for the first Bill that passed by, which was the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. They said, “Look, we can get this into the long title of that Bill: we will table amendments immediately.” That is exactly what they did, and I think that they should be thanked for it.
Let me say on behalf of the Church that we accept that additional measures may be necessary in due course. For example, my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) mentioned the need for warrants to go into unregulated yards. I understand that view, but I do not think the House should be unmindful of what Ministers have done in persuading colleagues in Whitehall to accept amendments to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Members should also not be unmindful of the fact that this will be the first ever commercial activity where cash is not allowed to be used—and, indeed, where using cash will be a criminal offence. Credit should be given where credit is due, and I therefore simply say thank you.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) on securing this debate. As my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley South (Chris Kelly) said, this is an important debate because metal theft has been growing exponentially over the past several years. This issue is a national concern and also affects individuals and communities. I cannot believe that any of the UK’s 650 constituencies has not been affected in one way or another by the blight of metal theft.
In 2011 in Crawley constituency there were 108 reported incidents of metal theft. However, the police tell me that that is, in fact, only a small fraction of the total number of such thefts, and I am sure they are right. There has been a range of different types of metal theft in my constituency, as I am sure is also the case throughout the country. In my constituency, eight schools and three churches had lead taken from their roofs in the last year. Such crimes are often only discovered when it rains several days later and the buildings concerned suffer a great deal of structural damage. Other types of theft include thefts of catalytic converters from garages and thefts from domestic dwellings.
I pay tribute to my local police. Chief Inspector Steve Curry is in charge of Crawley police station, on behalf of Sussex police. He has done a phenomenal job over the last year in reducing crime in my constituency. Dwelling burglaries have fallen by 25.8% over the last year, for instance. Unfortunately however, non-dwelling theft has increased by 25.7%, and much of that has been metal theft.
Metal theft has a massive effect on the UK economy. Many of my constituents commute to London every day, and, sadly, it is not uncommon for the theft of cable, often miles away, to result in trains grinding to a halt across London and the south-east. I am not fishing for sympathy, but I have suffered from that myself. On a day when I was planning to get to Parliament very early as I had an early question on the Order Paper, I almost did not arrive on time.
The cost of these thefts to our economy runs to many tens of millions of pounds, and I congratulate the Government both on their £5 million investment in the taskforce to tackle this problem and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) said, on introducing amendments to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. The Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 was written for a “Steptoe and Son” age. I therefore greatly welcome the Government’s commitment to updating it for the sake of our constituents, the country and the economy.
Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)
As we have heard, the explosion of metal theft in recent years has affected churches, railways lines, war memorials and countless public sector buildings, ranging from schools to hospitals, up and down the country. Criminals are hitting our city centres as well as many rural villages, making this a truly national crime. The growing problem of metal theft is costing the British economy more than £770 million a year, although the suspected number of unreported metal theft cases means that it could be argued that the overall cost to the economy is actually even higher. It is therefore right that the Government tackle this issue as a matter of urgency. As such, I am pleased to see that they are prohibiting the use of cash to pay for scrap metal. A cashless system will bring greater transparency to the scrap metal industry and will reduce the often anonymous transactions that enable criminals to sell on much of their stolen metal before disappearing without trace. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Crawley (Henry Smith), I wish to use this opportunity to welcome the Government’s £5 million funding, as outlined last November, to establish a dedicated metal theft taskforce.
Although I commend the Government’s recent actions on this issue, I wish to focus the rest of my contribution on how we must now keep the momentum going. It would be foolish for us to believe that a cashless system alone will adequately stem the tide of metal theft. After all, as with all robust reforms, there is always a danger that clamping down on illegal activity within a specific sector will drive the activity further underground and into a deeper and more dangerous black market. So I urge Ministers to commit to a fundamental review of the situation in six months’ time, when I believe that the Government’s timely reforms will have had time to take hold. It is imperative that we do not simply introduce such reforms and then sit back, because there is a real chance that the scale of the problem will require even more measures to be implemented in due course. For example, should the first draft of the robust reforms fail to cut it, will the Government also consider providing police officers with new powers to enter and inspect registered and non-registered scrap metal sites, as suggested by the Select Committee on Transport? Likewise, should metal theft be plunged into a deeper black market, will Ministers consider implementing the sensible measures proposed in today’s motion? I will not go into all of these radical suggestions in detail, but they could all play a vital role in a strong second phase of the fight against metal theft.
I urge the ministerial team not to take their eye off the ball on this issue. Metal theft is a hugely expensive and disruptive crime, which has offered criminals a high return in recent years because of the rise in global commodity prices. After a suitable period of time I hope that the Secretary of State will update the House on progress and, if necessary, introduce further measures to penetrate the core of this damaging criminal activity, which cannot continue to go unchecked.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
As a member of the all-party group on combating metal theft, which offices initiated this debate, I welcome and support the motion. We must address the widespread and growing problem of metal theft, and ensure that together we deliver a robust approach to fight this crime, which is blighting so many lives and communities. My constituent, the venerable Ian Bishop, Archdeacon of Macclesfield, asked me some time ago to highlight the issue in the House, and I am pleased that the Government are taking action to introduce a cashless payments system. They are perhaps doing so in no small part because of the number of questions that have been raised by those of us who attend questions to the Church Commissioners in this House—this is perhaps evidence of the worth of attending those questions.
Ian Bishop has asked me to reiterate the concerns that he has expressed. Every Church of England church in my constituency has been hit by metal theft in the past four years, and that has had a seriously debilitating effect on both the financial stability and morale of churches. He recounts one minister sobbing on his shoulder following a metal theft. The insurance available to churches is wholly insufficient to offset the consequences of this crime. He explained it as follows today. Ecclesiastical Insurance, the major insurer of churches, can provide only £5,000 of compensation for incidents of metal theft. In extreme cases, when the historic fabric of a church suffers water damage, the costs of repair easily exceed £100,000, which means that churches are, in effect, uninsurable and left at the mercy of those who perpetrate these crimes.
Ian Bishop has also highlighted to me the “ludicrous position” of the Church Buildings Council and English Heritage being too slow to allow churches to use alternative materials on grade I listed buildings. Such an approach encourages metal theft to become a cyclical crime, with the criminals winning again. I feel another Church Commissioners question coming on.
It is not only churches that suffer. In my constituency there has been a significant increase in the number of thefts of iron work from highways in the past 18 months—sometimes as many as 20 to 30 gullies a day. These are very expensive to replace, with installation costing £300 to £400 per gully, and the costs are paid by local council tax payers. Just last Saturday a constituent reported that on walking to my surgery he noticed the theft of metal posts that had been put in place to protect the public from falling into the canal at a risky point. That left a dangerous gap between the water and the popular walkway alongside the canal. It was reported to me today, on telephoning his home to check his account, that on his return from my surgery he noticed that the next set of posts had been stolen too.
The Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 needs to be updated. I, too, applaud the Government for their initiative in amending the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill and I thank Home Office Ministers for introducing the move towards cashless transactions. However, we also need changes to police powers to close unscrupulous scrap metal dealers and to give police the authority to search all premises owned and operated by scrap metal dealers. The police should be given the power to inspect any articles or records kept on site and there should be an ability to close dealerships. We need a move to a robust and compulsory licensing scheme to replace the present inadequate and outdated registration scheme. The use of CCTV should help. A comprehensive package of measures is needed to address this grave and far from victimless crime.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. I call James Morris—to sit down at 9.38 pm.
James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con)
There have been many disturbing instances in my constituency relating to metal theft. Just before Christmas, tenants had to be evacuated from their flats after a gas leak was discovered on an estate in Halesowen. Lives are clearly being put at risk by criminals stealing this metal. We know that most metal dealers take all appropriate steps to check the provenance of the scrap metal they are buying. Soon after I was elected, I toured the Mason Metals recycling centre in Halesowen. Mason Metals was working with Dudley police on “Scrap Yard Watch”, an appointment-driven collection scheme to help householders to dispose of large white goods legally and responsibly. It has now launched a new membership card programme for its customers. That scheme is in addition to the statutory waste transfer note records and is run alongside other measures.
I very much welcome the Government’s announcement that cash transactions for scrap metal will be outlawed. I understand the concerns voiced by legitimate metal recyclers, but the growing problem of metal thefts cannot be tackled effectively without proper traceability. We also need tougher penalties for those who are caught and convicted so that punishments are more proportionate to the scale of the crime. A £1,000 fine is hardly a deterrent for the unscrupulous minority. The Home Secretary has said that sentences will be significantly increased, which is very good news. Scrap metal dealers who offer a market for stolen metal, whether knowingly or by failing to carry out adequate checks—
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
I start by thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) and the hon. Members for Dudley South (Chris Kelly), for Worcester (Mr Walker) and for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) for securing this debate on behalf of the all-party group. Today has been one of those rare occasions on which the House has a unanimity about it, as it does regarding our objectives for the Bill. Let me add to that unanimity by saying that the Opposition support the motion and hope that the Government will too, because urgent action is needed on metal theft.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Mr Campbell) reminded us, this has been an emerging and long-standing problem. Indeed, Operation Fragment, which he commenced when he was at the Home Office, when I had the privilege of sharing an office with him at that Department, was an important effort in developing a programme to tackle metal theft at the end of the previous Government. Sadly, the problem has increased in that time, although this is not the fault of the current Government. About 15,000 tonnes of metal are stolen each year, with as much as half of that being stolen from scrap metal dealers themselves, as the hon. Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) mentioned. Industry and commercial victims agree that the figure is an underestimate. As the hon. Member for Crawley (Henry Smith) has said, there is still a significant problem with metal theft across the board.
There is a particular problem with churches, as was mentioned by my hon. Friends the Members for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) and for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) and the hon. Members for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler), for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) and for Banbury (Tony Baldry): 2011 was the worst year on record for the number of metal thefts from churches, with more than 2,500 claims. The problem of insurance has been drawn to the attention of the House today.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
In Bournemouth, we find that it is not just individuals who steal metal but organised groups. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that we need to legislate not just against individuals but against those who organise the crime?
Mr Hanson
Serious organised crime as well as opportunistic individuals are behind metal theft.
Cable theft caused the delay or cancellation of more than 35,000 national rail services, with more than 365,000 minutes of delay and a £16 million bill. Those points were made by the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech) and my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman). Her Committee’s report highlighted them particularly, and my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) has played a role in raising the issue.
Every day, there are eight actual or attempted thefts on railways. I was particularly struck by the contribution of the hon. Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson), who illustrated the impact of metal theft on small businesses in his constituency.
Over the past year, 10 people have been killed in metal theft incidents. The gas leak referred to by the hon. Member for Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris) was an extremely important incident. The Association of Chief Police Officers has estimated that metal theft costs the UK about £770 million a year, a figure that the hon. Member for York Outer (Julian Sturdy) mentioned, and which my hon. Friend the Member for Telford (David Wright) showed has been rising over the past few months.
I am most struck by the despicable nature of the crime. In his contribution, the hon. Member for Worcester said that door-knockers had been stolen from old people’s homes. People have talked about war memorials. The hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) spoke about the theft of a memorial in the city of Hull for fishermen lost at sea.
These crimes are committed by people who do not respect their neighbours, their communities or the people who live in them, so I welcome the fact that the Government have acted to tackle metal theft head-on, but I genuinely say to the House that they need to go much further. I welcome the proposals to end cashless payments, as did the hon. Members for Congleton and for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier). The proposals to increase fines are welcome too, but that is only part of what is required. The motion today, and its support from Members, has indicated that the House agrees.
I worry that the situation could be made worse by the amendments to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill that Lord Henley has indicated he will table on Report, which is likely to take place next month. Banning cash transactions, while positive, will not of itself solve the problem. Legitimate scrap yards will go cashless, but some yards, as has been said, will continue to take cash and to operate a black market. Only yesterday evening in the other place, my noble Friend Lord Rosser tabled an amendment that would give the police greater powers of entry and to shut down rogue scrap metal yards—measures welcomed by my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea East (Mrs James) and others. Those proposals are in the motion and were welcomed by Members this evening, yet the vote last night—for vote there was, Mr Deputy Speaker—was lost by six.
Lord Henley argued against the amendment, but he should read the debate we have held today. The feeling on both sides of the House is that it is an important proposal, so he needs to revisit it when he and his officials draft amendments to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. As my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) said, and as Lord Henley himself said last night, the 1964 Act is “beyond its sell-by date.” It was designed for the time of Steptoe and Son, not for the multifaceted organised criminals and opportunists of today. Lord Henley said:
“We wish to see a reform to that Act as soon as is possible, and we will make sure that we do it…We are looking for a coherent package of measures to tackle metal theft.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 6 February 2012; Vol. 735, c. 52-4.]
Let me be presumptuous and recommend that Lord Henley look at the motion in detail. I commend the suggestions of my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) on tackling metal theft. As the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) mentioned, those who follow best practice already do the things that the motion suggests.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford has introduced proposals to tackle metal theft, and that plan is supported by the British Transport police, the Association of Chief Police Officers, Neighbourhood Watch, BT, E.ON, energy networks, and Network Rail, to name but a few. It includes powers of entry for police, and tougher powers for them to close down rogue traders—a proposal that has been welcomed tonight across the board. It means that anyone selling scrap has to provide proof of identity, which will be recorded at the point of sale—again, that has been welcomed tonight across the board. It includes licensing scrap metal dealers, rather than the current system of registration with local authorities. It means, yes, doing what the Government say they are doing— banning cash transactions, especially for large-scale, high-value scrap metal transactions.
Those measures will allow legitimate trade to continue, which is what my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) wants, but, by our making it harder and more expensive for opportunists and organised criminals to profit from metal theft, the cowboy traders that he mentioned will feel the burden of those measures very strongly. Prevention can play an important part. Private sector solutions such as SmartWater, which was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Telford, are important. Other suggestions, such as the one made by the hon. Member for Sherwood, for alternatives to lead, are valuable, and can be looked at by the private sector.
We cannot, however, get away from the fact the House has spoken with one voice, and it wants the changes proposed in the motion. The Opposition support those measures, and I want the Minister to support them too. We need a much tougher licensing regime, and we must ensure that we require people to do the things that I have outlined so that we can stop extensive metal theft. The Minister will say that she certainly supports the banning of cash transactions. She will say that she supports increased fines, but if she says that she does not support the other measures in the motion she must explain to the House and to her hon. Friends why not, and why she will not undertake those actions. From my perspective—and I think that I speak for most Members who have spoken tonight, not on a party political basis, but on a House of Commons against the Government basis—those are important measures that we want collectively, across the board.
The motion was drafted by the all-party group, with support from every party. It has the support of every Member who has spoken tonight. Time is pressing, and we need to do this. Households face power cuts, commuters face increased delays, and churches and public buildings have been damaged. If the Minister does not support the motion, will she explain to the House why not? I genuinely hope, however, that she does and that she drafts measures in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill in a different way. I will even forget the fact that her party voted against the amendment in the other place. I urge her to support such proposals, and she will receive a great cheer from the House when she does.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Lynne Featherstone)
I congratulate the Backbench Business Committee on securing a debate on an issue that rightly concerns all of us. I congratulate the hon. Members for Hyndburn (Graham Jones), for Dudley South (Chris Kelly) and for Worcester (Mr Walker) on tabling the motion.
Metal theft is a crime that affects us all and strikes at the very heart of our communities. As we have heard from Members on both sides of the House, it is a dreadful crime. They have painted a thoroughly depressing picture of the mentality of those who would desecrate churches and commit theft—whole brass bands gone and a building having to be demolished because of the amount of metal taken from it. There were really horrible stories from every constituency.
The consequences are there for all to see, not least the loss and disruption to telecommunications, as every hon. Member mentioned—I am not going to go over everything that was said, as more than 22 contributions were made—as well as to electricity and transport networks, and the damage to our religious and heritage sites. There were horrific stories right across the country.
We are not prepared to stand by and see our infrastructure and heritage destroyed, which is why the Government are taking the problem of metal theft so seriously and taking action. We are clear that the only sustainable, long-term solution is legislation, but we are equally clear that legislation alone is not enough. That is why we propose a coherent package of measures to tackle metal theft. We want to cut out the easy, anonymous reward for metal thieves by banning cash payments for scrap metal and making it much harder for illegitimate dealers to trade in stolen metals by introducing a more rigorous licensing scheme, which many Members across the House have called for. We want to deter thieves and illegal metal dealers by introducing more focused and sustained enforcement and tougher penalties.
To those who say that the Government are not going far enough or fast enough, I say that we are going as fast as we possibly can. Metal theft is a horrific crime, and the Government are stepping forward to take action. Two weeks ago the Home Secretary announced to Parliament the legislative action we will take as part of our package of measures. We will increase the fines for all offences in the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964—the maximum fine will be unlimited—which will strengthen the deterrent and improve industry compliance with the current registration scheme. We will also create a new criminal offence in order to prohibit cash payments for the purchase of scrap metal. That has been welcomed on both sides of the House.
Prohibiting cash from an entire sector is a bold step, but cash transactions for scrap metal are often completed without any proof of personal identification or that the individual legitimately owns the goods being sold. This leads to anonymous transactions that create such a low risk for criminal activity that we have seen this epidemic across our country. Requiring transactions to be completed with traceable payments will dramatically improve the ability of the police and local authorities to enforce the existing registration scheme. The widespread use of cash, coupled with lax record keeping, also creates easy opportunities for tax avoidance. We will work constructively with the British Metals Recycling Association on how his measure will operate in practice.
The legislative changes to increase fines and ban cash payments will be made through Government amendments to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. This is the quickest and most practical way that we can get these measures into law and crack down on metal theft. Members across the House have made it perfectly clear tonight that the House wants us to go further, but let me stress that we need realistic, achievable and effective legislative measures.
Lynne Featherstone
I will not, as I am really short of time.
That is why we took the difficult decision not to support the private Member’s Bill proposed by the hon. Member for Hyndburn. It was not because we do not agree with the principles, but because unfortunately the Bill would not have received the necessary parliamentary time to achieve Royal Assent in this Session.
Lynne Featherstone
I am sorry, but I really want to make some particular points. If I have a minute at the end I will give way. Members have been asking all evening for me to answer the points raised, and I intend to do so.
Strong legislation is absolutely vital, but it must be backed up by strong enforcement action from the police and other law enforcement agencies. We are working with the Association of Chief Police Officers, local police forces and the British Transport police to strengthen law enforcement activity. Recognising the damage that metal theft causes to our economy, the Government have committed £5 million of additional funding to establish a dedicated national metal theft task force. The taskforce will complement and expand existing enforcement activity not only by the police, but by a range of law enforcement agencies.
The message we are sending out is clear: metal thieves will have nowhere to hide. We have recently seen some significant sentences given to metal thieves, which I hope will continue. I welcome the recent announcement by Keir Starmer, the Director of Public Prosecutions, in which he instructed prosecutors to use every tool at their disposal to take a firm stand to convict metal thieves. I make it clear that we are in no way targeting the legitimate metal recycling industry, which does important work that is good for our economy and good for our environment.
Many Members on both sides of the House asked about a number of measures, and the Government believe that the measures that we have already announced will make a big difference, but we are open to new ideas and are already considering how we can further strengthen our approach to metal theft, including the proposals outlined in the motion.
We are considering, for example, how the existing registration scheme can be strengthened, with a robust licensing scheme for scrap metal dealers to replace the current registration scheme, and we agree that the existing scheme under the Scrap Metal Dealers Act is outdated and in need of improvement. The Home Office is already seeking to make such changes as soon as parliamentary time allows.
On greater police powers, which Members on both sides have asked for, we are keen to provide the police with sufficient powers, including entry and closure powers covering the scrap metal industry, to tackle metal theft offenders, and we are seeking clarity on whether we can include amendments to police powers of entry as part of wider measures in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill.
We want to regularise the position under the 1964 Act, whereby the police have the power to enter yards that are registered under the Act, because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) said, their inability to go into unregistered yards is a real anomaly. In the meantime, the work of the dedicated metal theft task force, along with unlimited fines and the end of cash transactions, will tackle the problem until we can bring all those powers into being.
Any new scheme must support legal operators and promote the green economy, but it must also have the power to tackle scrap metal dealers who wilfully help the stolen metal trade, so we will consider further measures, listen to the outcome of the debate and see whether there is more we can practically do to stop metal theft. I shall now give way to the hon. Member for Hyndburn, but I hope that Members appreciate that they did ask for an answer to these questions, and I have been trying to give them one.
Graham Jones
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, and I have just a simple and straightforward question. Will Government Front Benchers support the motion tonight?
Lynne Featherstone
Government Front Benchers will not oppose the motion tonight, and I am sure that hon. Members on both sides will support it.
We are strengthening the law, cracking down on rogue scrap dealers and targeting the criminals who supply them. That is the right way to tackle this devastating crime. That is what this Government are doing, and this Government are taking action. Nothing happened during the previous 13 years.
Graham Jones
First, I welcome the Minister’s words, because we are beginning to move in the right direction. We still have some outstanding issues, including whether the Government are going to be robust enough, but we have heard everybody’s comments tonight, and we in the plural sense—the public, Members and those in the other place—want to see tough action, so that is a key question for the Government.
Secondly, on the point about timing, Members want to see measures introduced as soon as possible, and one key issue for many Members is the fact that we have the summer recess coming up and the Queen’s speech, so legislation needs to come forward. We also have the Olympic games, and, to cite again the words I mentioned earlier, we are not far from a national catastrophe. Paul Crowther from the British Transport police said that the issue is second only to terrorism, so urgency is key in this issue, and many people both nationally and locally feel that way.
Robert Flello
Would it not be extremely embarrassing for this country if the Olympics were disrupted by metal theft?
Graham Jones
I say politely to my hon. Friend, “It wouldn’t be very good, would it?” It would not be a good advert if London ground to a halt and the rail network stopped, so it is imperative that we are seen to act.
I am grateful to Members for being here tonight in such numbers in order to express their opinion on the need to act on metal theft. The Government need not just to look at the timetable and to bring forward legislation as soon as they can; they need to go beyond legislation. We need to consider being far more proactive, so I am very grateful for Members’ contributions this evening.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House notes that metal theft is becoming a serious issue for the UK; welcomes the Government’s announcement on introducing a cashless system and higher penalties; is concerned that the comprehensive package of measures which is needed to address this issue is not being introduced at the same time; believes that to effectively stamp out metal theft there needs to be a radical change in how the scrap metal industry is regulated; and calls on the Government to introduce a number of additional measures as a matter of urgency, including a robust licensing scheme for scrap metal dealers to replace the present registration scheme, a licence fee to fund the regulation of the licence, greater police powers to close unscrupulous scrap metal dealers in line with alcohol licensing, police authority to search and investigate all premises owned and operated by scrap metal dealers, use of photo identification and CCTV to identify sellers of scrap metal, and their vehicles, vehicle badging for mobile scrap metal dealers, and magistrates’ powers to add licence restrictions and prevent closed yards from re-opening.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Before we come to the next business, may I say that this clearly was a popular debate and apologise to Members who put in to speak, but were constrained or did not get in at all?
Business without Debate
(12 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
David Wright (Telford) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I seek your advice in relation to questions that are tabled for a response on a named day. I am frugal and careful in my use of named-day questions and have tabled very few in my parliamentary career. I think that it is important that when named-day questions are put down, they are answered accordingly. Last week, I tabled three questions to the Ministry of Defence on an important issue relating to workers in my constituency. The response that I received was that the questions would be answered shortly. That is an increasing trend with named-day questions. I would like to know whether you can assist Members in getting the Government to answer named-day questions in a timely fashion.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Mr Speaker has made it known that it is important that named-day questions are answered on time. The hon. Gentleman has got his point across and those on the Treasury Bench will have heard it. I will bring the matter to Mr Speaker’s attention.
Police Cuts (Humberside)
(12 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
The petition is from my constituents in north Hull, who are concerned about cuts to police in Humberside. I would like to mention in particular Demelza France, a shop worker who collected names at her workplace.
The petition states:
The Petition of residents of Hull,
Declares that the Petitioners believe that the Government has a duty to protect citizens from crime; that the significant increase in police officers over the past ten years has helped reduce crime and make people feel safer; notes that under Government proposals the police budget will be cut by 20%, that over 16,000 police officers will be lost and that for Humberside Police Force cuts will be even greater than the national average, with a 25% reduction in the police budget; further notes that Humberside Police Force is projected to have 250 fewer police officers in March 2012 than in March 2010; and declares that the Petitioners believe that this will hamper the efforts of the police to prevent crime and keep citizens safe.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to support the work of the police in ensuring that the downward trend in overall crime continues by at least maintaining 2010 levels of uniformed police officers in England and Wales.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P001005]
Asbestos in Schools
(12 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
I sought this Adjournment debate in an attempt to highlight a most serious situation facing the nation’s schools—the presence of asbestos in many school buildings and the risk of exposure to it among pupils and workers alike. I say at the outset that in no way am I looking to score political points. I hope that my views, comments and questions in this debate will attract cross-party support.
Of the 33,600 schools in Britain, the Department for Education has estimated that more than 75% contain asbestos. Some 14,000 schools were built after the second world war, and almost all those built before 1975 contain asbestos. Schools refurbished during that period are also likely to contain it.
Exposure to asbestos fibres, even at low levels, can cause lung cancer and mesothelioma, which is a cancer affecting the lining of the lung. We should not be complacent about the presence of those dust fibres and the effects that it can have on an individual’s life. It is estimated that more than 4,000 people a year die as a result of exposure to asbestos. Mesothelioma has a lengthy latency period, which simply means that the condition may not surface for perhaps 20, 30 or even 40 or 50 years following exposure. However, once the disease is diagnosed, it is largely fatal, with most victims dying within 18 months of diagnosis.
Does the Minister agree that the Government’s policy should be the phased removal of all asbestos from schools, with priority being given to those schools where the asbestos is in the worst condition or considered to be the most dangerous or damaged?
Exposure to asbestos in schools is endangering the lives of tens of thousands of schoolchildren and teachers, many of whom are completely unaware of their daily exposure. It has continued for generations, and year after year, individuals diagnosed with lung cancer, mesothelioma and other asbestos-related diseases are puzzled about the whereabouts of their exposure. In many cases, it happened while they were at school.
More than 140 school teachers have died from mesothelioma in the past 10 years. Disturbingly, figures relating to other school workers, such as cleaners and administration staff, and relating to the number of children who have died as a result of exposure, are unknown. Children are likely to be particularly vulnerable to asbestos exposure, because their lungs are still developing. If we use the ratio calculation used in the US, which is that for every teacher who dies nine children will die, that translates into the alarming statistic of 100 people dying each year here in the UK as a result of exposure at school.
The materials of greatest concern are those that readily release asbestos fibres into the environment. Many people mistakenly believe that those fibres are confined to asbestos lagging, sprayed asbestos and asbestos insulating boards, but that is not the case. Asbestos was commonly used to spray ceilings and structural beams, and extensively used in wall constructions and many other areas that are vulnerable to damage and disturbance by the school population on a daily basis.
Does the Minister agree that by law, all schools should be required to carry out a thorough asbestos survey, which should include air tests and detailed independent inspections? Will immediate consideration be given to that?
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I fully endorse the hon. Gentleman’s comments. In 2004, the Northern Ireland Assembly took a decision to undertake asbestos tests in all schools and to have it removed, and such decisions have been taken in other regions of the UK. Does that not reinforce his point that it is now up to England to follow suit?
Ian Lavery
That is the very reason for this debate. I want a survey to be carried out, followed by the phased removal of asbestos in a strategic manner between now and a given date. The hon. Gentleman’s comment adds strength to my argument.
Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on obtaining this debate. If we can identify where the asbestos is within each school, that stops repairs being done when the people doing them do not know that there is asbestos in there. It is important that that identification is done as quickly as possible.
Ian Lavery
My hon. Friend makes a very important point. One of the big problems—I will come on to this—is that many different types of asbestos are unidentified in the school buildings. People are very unaware of where and what it is. If we are not going to remove the asbestos immediately, how we manage it over that period is very important.
A report commissioned by the Medical Research Council concluded:
“It is not unreasonable to assume…that the entire school population has been exposed to asbestos in school buildings”.
Furthermore, the MRC report assessed lifetime asbestos exposure levels and it concluded that even in schools where the asbestos is in a good condition, the everyday background asbestos fibre levels are five to 500 times greater than outdoor levels. To try to put that into some context, the Industrial Injuries Advisory Council defines “significant exposure” as
“a level above that commonly found in the air in buildings and the general outdoor environment”
and states that an exposure above that level would materially increase the risk of mesothelioma developing.
According to leading experts, the frightening reality of asbestos exposure is that there is no known threshold below which there is no risk. Even the most common of classroom activities can release dangerous fibres. That can be something as simple as slamming the door five times, which could release levels of amosite fibres more than 600 times greater than outdoor levels. That action routinely occurs in Britain’s schools on a daily basis. There are even simpler reasons for fibre release in classrooms, such as placing drawing pins in the wall and removing books from the book shelf. They are daily occurrences, too, in every school in the UK, and that is why I sought this important debate.
If the respected experts are correct—as of yet, there has been little opposition to their findings—children and school staff are being exposed considerably day in, day out, which is deeply concerning. Will the Minister consider the introduction of a national audit of the extent and condition of asbestos in schools, in which the data should be centrally collated and open to public scrutiny?
The exposure to the lethal fibres on such a scale means that people are dying from the asbestos-related disease mesothelioma. We all agree that to do nothing is not an option—or should I say that I hope that we all agree? Fresh action is needed urgently.
Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)
I thank the hon. Gentleman and congratulate him on securing this very important debate. Will he join me in congratulating the Department for Education on making movements on training packages for staff? I hope that he will agree that we must go much further to ensure that staff are trained to cover the problems caused by drawing pins in walls. Does he further agree that if parents have any inkling that the age of the building is such that it might contain asbestos, when they visit the school they should ask to see its asbestos management plan?
Ian Lavery
The hon. Lady makes a number of very important points, which I hope to clarify in my speech.
The current system is difficult to remedy and, as such, Government policy is to manage the asbestos in schools and try to reduce the exposure incidence. So long as the asbestos is in good condition and is unlikely to be disturbed, it is thought that managing the asbestos in a prescribed manner is preferential to its removal.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Laurence Jackson school in Guisborough in my constituency, built at the time of the Macmillan Government, has about six or seven boilers whose piping is lagged with asbestos. Due to the antiquated boiler system, constant work is needed, meaning that the pipes are constantly being interfered with, increasing the likelihood of asbestos contamination. The school has a plan, but its capital requirement for dealing with the ongoing situation is only about £25,000. The likelihood of asbestos contamination increases every time the system is tampered with. Would he not say that even schools that have a plan can get into tricky situations like that?
Ian Lavery
My hon. Friend makes an important point. That is one reason we can no longer agree to leave asbestos in schools virtually until they are knocked down. We need a strategy in place for the immediate phased removal of asbestos. Yes, it will take time, but we need a strategy.
Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)
I am delighted to hear the hon. Gentleman say that phased removal is the right strategy for the long term. Does he agree that most parents understand that it cannot all be done at once, but that there is nothing to fear from sharing information more publicly so that there is more pressure from parents and more knowledge from schools about what they need to do in the meantime to mitigate the problem properly rather than to deal with it inadequately until phased removal is possible?
Ian Lavery
I accept that point, and I will come to it in my contribution. It is extremely important that parents and everyone involved in schools understand exactly what the management plans are, and understand everything relating to asbestos presence in the school building.
The problem at the moment is that we have the worst of both worlds. Asbestos is not being removed due to cuts to the schools refurbishment programme, but at the same time, it is not being managed properly. Effective asbestos management systems must be put in place and registered and monitored accurately, asbestos-containing materials must be clearly identified and marked, regular independent inspections must take place and defects must be repaired immediately.
Does the Minister agree that children should have the same rights as adults in an asbestos environment? Those rights could reasonably be exercised through parents, guardians and teachers. In addition, does he agree that schools should be treated as special places, as they are in other countries? Children’s special vulnerability to asbestos should be recognised in asbestos management procedures. Most importantly, does the Minister accept that the details of asbestos incidents in schools need to be collated centrally and open to public and internal scrutiny, so that the effectiveness of Health and Safety Executive, Department for Education and local authority asbestos management policies can be assessed?
A recent report by the Asbestos Testing and Consultancy Association was critical of many schools. The report criticised ineffective and at times dangerous asbestos management systems. ATAC expressed the view that school systems’ failures are not minor in the main, but fundamental, serious and endemic in schools across the UK.
If, as is likely, Government policy is to be maintained—that is to say, if the problem of asbestos is to be managed—then managed it must be. A well-trained work force are essential, as is a culture of openness with parents, pupils and teachers. Quality training of head teachers, teachers, school governors and others expected to manage asbestos is a must. All staff should be adequately trained in asbestos awareness so that any actions that might disturb asbestos fibres can be prevented. Also, instructions should be given to children to ensure that any disturbance is avoided.
If any management system is to work efficiently, individuals must be up to the job. Those tasked with managing the system must clearly understand their role and responsibilities under the current law. That is not happening at the moment, although some local authorities are better than others. However, the Secretary of State for Education recently announced that he proposes to move responsibility for health and safety in schools away from local authorities and give it to individual schools. That will make good and effective management even more unlikely. Will the Minister confirm that such training is adequately funded and will continue as long as management systems are in place? Furthermore, will he comment on the notion that standards in asbestos training should be set and that training should be mandatory? Will he recommend that the Department for Education and the HSE jointly develop asbestos guidance specifically for schools and that current standards be reviewed?
We have a huge problem with openness. The presence and incidence of asbestos fibre release is often played down. It is accurate to suggest that many parents are wholly unaware and not informed of the presence of asbestos in their children’s place of education. A recent survey showed that at least half of school staff were not informed of the problem either. Will the Minister demand a policy of openness and complete transparency about asbestos in schools? Does he agree that parents and teachers should have a right to know what asbestos is present in their and their children’s school, and does he accept that parents, teachers and support staff should be annually updated on the presence of asbestos in their schools and on the measures being taken to manage it?
In conclusion, this issue has often been seen by successive Governments as too big to handle. It is crystal clear that there are serious concerns about how asbestos is managed in schools. The longer the issue remains unaddressed, the more people will be exposed, increasing the cost to be picked up by future generations, as has happened in past decades. The Government and other interested experts should work together to ensure greater co-ordination, aiming at the complete eradication of asbestos fibres in our schools. Children, parents and staff should feel totally comfortable in the school environment and free from potential harm. Will the Minister agree to revisit this issue as a matter of great urgency, and take up the cudgels and introduce a detailed programme to secure our nation’s prized assets—our children—from this killer fibre?
The Minister of State, Department for Education (Mr Nick Gibb)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) on securing this important debate. I know that he is passionate about this subject, having campaigned for victims of asbestos-related lung conditions and pleural plaques in the north-east and in his role as secretary of the all-party parliamentary group on health and safety. I have read its report, “Asbestos in Schools: the need for action”, very carefully.
The priority for this Government, as for the previous Government, is to ensure the safety of staff and pupils in schools. The report is welcome in raising awareness of the asbestos issue and makes several important recommendations, which I will address, as I will the hon. Gentleman’s questions. The Government’s policy remains consistent with that of the previous Administration. The Health and Safety Executive advice is clear. If asbestos is in good condition and not disturbed or damaged, it is safer to leave and manage it in place than to remove it. In the view of the HSE, removing it would involve a far greater risk to school children, staff and contractors than managing it until the eventual demolition of the building.
The Department for Education and the HSE are proactive in promoting good asbestos management in schools. To oversee this important work, my noble Friend Lord Hill, the Under-Secretary of State with responsibility for schools, established the asbestos in schools steering group, which is chaired by the Department and has a membership that includes my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke), trade unions, campaigners, the HSE and Partnership for Schools.
Under the Control of Asbestos Regulations 2006, responsibility for complying with asbestos legislation lies with those responsible for the maintenance or repair of non-domestic premises. For most state schools that will be the local authority, not the school itself, but where budgets for building management are delegated to schools by the local authority, the duty—as it is called—to manage asbestos will be shared between schools and the local authority.
Ian Lavery
Will the hon. Gentleman explain what would happen with the newly introduced free schools? Who would be responsible for the management plan and for ridding those schools of asbestos?
Mr Gibb
The duty to manage is the duty of the employer. In academies and free schools, that would be either the governing body or the academy trust. However, I will write to the hon. Gentleman shortly to ensure that I am correct on the technical question of who, precisely, is the employer in those circumstances.
There is a need for head teachers and governors to be aware of their responsibilities when commissioning building or maintenance work. Duty holders should have already taken steps to identify whether asbestos is present in their buildings and assessed the condition of the asbestos, and should have access to records of that information. The duty holder also needs to assess and manage risks to ensure that people are not exposed to asbestos fibres. If the asbestos-containing material is deteriorating or subject to damage, remedial measures will be required. The HSE guidance on the 2006 regulations gives schools clear procedures to follow in assessing the risk from asbestos. The guidance requires assessment of the location, type and condition of the asbestos-containing material, and it is the duty of schools and local authorities to take the appropriate measures.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), who has responsibility for employment, has set out the Government’s plans for reform of the health and safety system in Britain in the document “Good Health and Safety, Good for Everyone”. The proposals make it clear that there is a need to focus attention on the highest risks. As a result, the HSE will not routinely inspect local authority-maintained schools. However, managing asbestos needs effective and ongoing attention from duty holders. The HSE’s recent inspection initiatives of schools under local authority control and those outside it, to which the hon. Gentleman referred, found that the majority were adequately managing asbestos, but a proportion fell below acceptable standards. The findings of those inspections have been published, so that all schools can review their asbestos management in areas where common weaknesses were identified. The HSE is also gathering intelligence to see whether further inspections of schools are necessary. If so, the HSE will monitor the duty to manage asbestos requirements through a series of inspections in 2013-14 to ensure that the HSE’s guidance and the findings of its recent inspection initiatives are properly implemented.
Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)
Very briefly, what proportion of schools fell below the standards?
Mr Gibb
I do not know the proportion that fell below the acceptable standards, but I will write to the hon. Gentleman shortly with the precise figure from the HSE.
Everyone in the education sector has a role to play in raising and maintaining awareness. Where duty holders fall below acceptable standards, HSE inspectors will continue to take action, and they have robust procedures in place to enforce regulations. The Department and the HSE have put in place clear guidance for schools and local authorities to help them identify and manage the risks posed by asbestos. We are currently producing an asbestos awareness training website, containing online training packages for head teachers and governors, and teaching and support staff, as well as premises and caretaking staff. In addition to training, the website will allow schools and local authorities to share good practice and documentation on asbestos management. The head teacher’s course is undergoing trials and will be released later this year. We do not propose to make the training mandatory, as we do not want to impose one particular model where good practice may already be in place.
Another recommendation in the report, to which the hon. Member for Wansbeck referred, was that data about the extent, type and condition of asbestos should be collected by central Government. There is a need to maintain a register of asbestos surveys at local authority level, but we do not see the need for a national register of asbestos surveys of public buildings in England and Wales. It would result in the unnecessary duplication of the records that local authorities and other employers are required by law to keep, and the need to maintain two sets of identical data would increase bureaucracy.
Another recommendation in the report was that a system should be introduced so that parents and school staff could be regularly informed about the presence of asbestos and how it was being managed. A similar system is in place in the United States. We encourage a policy of openness, but it is for duty holders to determine which information to share with parents.
On the issue of proactively removing all asbestos, the HSE’s advice is clear. Removing all asbestos when a risk assessment has determined that that is not necessary is considered more dangerous to those removing it and to the building’s occupants than leaving it undisturbed. If the control of asbestos regulations are followed and asbestos surveys and management plans are put into effect, with periodic checks on the condition of any asbestos, the expert advice is that this will result in no significant exposure to asbestos.
The Government take very seriously the issue of managing the problem of asbestos in our schools. As the all-party group’s report makes clear, the majority of schools contain asbestos-containing materials, as do many other buildings, both domestic and non-domestic. The asbestos in schools steering group, established by my noble Friend Lord Hill, has asked the committee on carcinogenicity of chemicals in food, consumer products and the environment to look into the relative vulnerability of children to even low-level exposure to asbestos fibres. I have taken on board the hon. Gentleman’s point about the exposure of children to asbestos. This will be the first such assessment, as previous assessments have been for adults exposed to high exposure levels. We will review our policy on asbestos management and our advice to schools when we receive the committee’s report later this year.
I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising this issue. I hope that he will be reassured that the Government are taking it very seriously. As previous Governments have done, we are following the expert advice of the Health and Safety Executive in formulating policy and managing safely the asbestos in school buildings.
Question put and agreed to.
Westminster Hall
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Intellectual Property
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
Good morning, Mr Caton. I welcome you to the Chair and the Minister to his place. I know that hasty rearrangements have been made to allow him to plug a few gaps this morning. I am grateful to you and the Minister for coming along, and I hope that our little chit-chat about intellectual property will be intellectually stimulating. I refer to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.
I thought that it would be interesting and opportune to examine intellectual property issues and economic growth, because there is so much stuff going on. It has been several months since publication of the Hargreaves review, which made several recommendations, and the Government’s response. In the past few weeks, the Intellectual Property Office has embarked on consultation on how those recommendations can be implemented, as well as doing us the favour of introducing a few new recommendations of its own, which I will touch on. Also in the past few weeks, the Government have appointed Richard Hooper to lead the new digital copyright exchange. He is consulting on the best way to take the new body forward, and I want to encourage as many people as possible to give evidence to both consultations to ensure that we get both issues right as far as possible.
We are getting into the awards season when the cream of the intellectual property-supported industry and artists will be celebrating at events such as the British Academy of Film and Television Arts awards and the BRITs. I have a ticket for the BRIT awards ceremony. I do not know whether you have, Mr Caton, but I would be happy to tell you about it the following morning. I know that some of my colleagues here today are looking forward to that great event.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
Is the hon. Gentleman being rather remiss in not mentioning the BBC Radio 2 folk awards, which take place this week, and which both he and I will be attending together in Salford?
Pete Wishart
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for reminding me of that. I must ensure that I book accommodation for my trip to Salford, which I am looking forward to.
It is worth reminding the Chamber of the contribution that the intellectual property-supported industry makes to the general economy. It is massive. Around 8% of our gross domestic product is predicated on the intellectual property-supported industry, and it is responsible for around 2.8 million jobs. As the hon. Gentleman’s intervention cleverly but not discreetly emphasised, my major interest is music. As well as the fantastic folk awards, the BRIT awards will take place in the next couple of weeks, when we will celebrate again that, outwith the United States, the United Kingdom is the second largest exporter of music worldwide. It is a huge, successful and fantastic industry, which has gone from strength to strength. Last year, we saw incredible success for UK artists, particularly in the US market.
Not just music is involved; every part of the creative range and everything that we do in this country produces a fantastic conveyor belt of imagination and talent, and we have been able to ensure that it has been successful. We have been able to do that mainly because we have fantastic imagination, talent and creativity within the UK. Moreover, we have built up a world-class infrastructure—the sector or the industry—that has been able to ensure that emerging talent has been identified, supported and mentored. We have ensured that that talent has been able to come through, and that is predicated on the real and important issue that those who have been prepared to invest in their talent have been rewarded for their contribution in bringing that talent through.
We must do nothing to threaten that incredible conveyor belt of talent, support and nurturing. However, we are beginning to observe a few danger signs. There are a few clouds on the horizon that are worth examining, because the threat comes from an unusual place. That threat and the clouds in the distance are being brought forward by the Government in the drift of some of their thinking and some of their policies. We must ensure that the industry continues to be supported. I have spoken in such debates for 10 years. I think that I have managed to speak in all debates on intellectual property and creative industries. I have never known a time when those who speak on behalf of the sector and all the different disciplines in the creative economy have felt that they have been undervalued and misunderstood and that their voice is not being heard.
There is a feeling in the sector of being under siege because of the tone and drift of the Government’s thinking about how we look at our creative economy. There is an emerging view that the Government might even be devaluing our whole attitude towards intellectual property. There is a sneaking suspicion—I have heard this from people throughout Europe—that the Government might be approaching something that could be described as anti-copyright. That is not a good place to be. It is not where we want to be if we want to grow this remarkable sector. The Government must hand out an olive branch to those who speak on behalf of the industry and the sector and try to get some of the issues resolved now.
There is also a feeling that that is happening because of the work of the Intellectual Property Office. Its very name suggests that it is about enabling and supporting intellectual property. One would think that that is what it is for, and that that would be its sole and exclusive responsibility. Some of the new thinking about devaluing intellectual property, and the drift and concern about copyright seem to come from within the IPO. We must be wary of that, because we might be creating an office that is supposed to support a particular sector, but instead is becoming a bureaucratic front to devalue the people whom it is supposed to support. We must get to grips with that.
The emerging view is that the Government are more interested in pursuing the rights of those who live off the content of others, and who perhaps abuse it, rather than those who produce it in the first place. That view contends that the artist, the creator and those who are prepared to invest in a talent have become a massive inconvenience and that they are an afterthought and must be grudgingly accommodated and managed. The idea that the inventor or creator is the owner of important intellectual property rights is barely recognised. Whatever links they want to assert must be collectivised for the greater good.
I appeal to the Government to get a grip on the issue, to take charge of it and to prevent the drift because it is not helpful. They must exercise and demonstrate effective political control. They have allowed us to drift over the past few years, and there has not been the leadership that this important sector—8% of GDP—requires. We have a haphazard arrangement, which is not in the interest of the whole sector. The IPO resides in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. The creative industries, the artists and the inventors are managed by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport.
We have a Minister who is not accountable to the elected House of Commons; she is a member of the House of Lords. This is my second debate on intellectual property and these issues. I gave evidence to the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills, but I have not even had a meeting with that Minister, such is her accountability to elected Members of Parliament. I respectfully suggest how to resolve the matter. We need one dedicated Minister of State in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, where we could have the IPO and the artists, creators and the whole sector. Putting the IPO within that Department might lead to better understanding and more sympathy for the people whom it is nominally and notionally there to serve. A Minister of State who oversees the whole digital economy could pick up issues such as intellectual property, supporting artists and major legislation such as the Digital Economy Act 2010.
What we have now is totally unsatisfactory. There is no effective political control, and no leadership is given to the IPO, so it has started to develop its own agenda and come up with the notion that copyright and intellectual property must be constrained for the benefit of users. Close attention at ministerial level has not been paid to such issues over the past few years, and that has created a vacuum that has been occupied—possibly rightly—by the IPO, which has come on board and decided that such matters are its concern. The Minister is relatively new to these issues, but I urge him to get a grip and take control. Government agencies advise; Ministers decide. The Intellectual Property Office may sound like a grand organisation, but it is an instrument of government and should be subject to ministerial control and guidance.
When industries supported by intellectual property rights and those who speak for the sector come to Whitehall to put their case to Ministers, they are dismissed almost arrogantly. Their evidence, which at times the Government have charged them to produce, is dismissed as what Ian Hargreaves called “lobbynomics.” What a ridiculous thing to say to an industry and sector that try to produce work on behalf of the Government so that it is better understood. People are also told, in a patronising and sneering manner, that they do not understand the business environment in which they are working.
Those who now have the Government’s ear are not particularly helpful. Some have become self-serving protectionists and are telling the Government their views. Self-appointed digital rights champions seem to rule the roost when informing Government opinion, and everything that the Government do is predicated on the support for and desire to please massive multi-billion dollar west-coast United States companies such as Google.
I do not know why Google has the Government’s ear, but I do not contend that it has a particular lobbying influence inside No. 10. I do not even suggest that Steve Hilton, the special policy adviser, has a special relationship with Google. I do not suggest such things or contend them today. For some reason, however, Google has the ear of the Government, and it was no surprise that, when Ian Hargreaves initiated his review, many people called it the Google review.
Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab)
If the hon. Gentleman is not prepared to allege such things today, may I volunteer to do it for him?
Pete Wishart
I would never suggest that there is a special relationship between No. 10 and certain key individuals in a company called Google, and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for reasserting the fact that I do not allege that today.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. Let me declare an interest at the outset. I have spoken to Allison Coleman, my former law tutor at the university of Wales, Aberystwyth, who advises the Welsh Government, the National Library of Wales, the National Museum Wales, the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales and the People’s Collection Wales on access to orphan works. Her concern is that it is possible that national institutions with vast collections of works whose copyright owners are unknown will be charged a licence fee when they digitise those items and publish them on the web. As Hargreaves argues and almost everyone accepts, it is in the national interest that tremendous resources are held by our libraries, archives, museums and galleries. If those public institutions have to pay a fee to digitise each item—
Pete Wishart
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman; he had a lot to say, and he said it eloquently and concisely. He is right, although unfortunately I do not have much time to discuss orphan works. He will know, however, about the great concern that exists. It is an issue that emerged in the Hargreaves report and seemed sensible and the right thing to do, although as soon as we started to unravel some of its complexities, we noticed difficulties such as the one that he described. He will also know about the great unhappiness about orphan works that currently exists, especially among photographers. The Government must consider such issues seriously, and I thank the hon. Gentleman for bringing the matter to the attention of the House.
Kevin Brennan
Is the hon. Gentleman disappointed at the attitude taken by Consumer Focus on such issues? It is a Government-funded organisation that exists to defend the consumer, although it seems more interested in defending things such as illegal downloading than in genuinely protecting consumers and dealing with rip-offs.
Pete Wishart
Once again, the hon. Gentleman is spot on. I saw the report by Consumer Focus, and disappointing is hardly the word that I would use to describe it. We are talking about illegal activity, which is what happens when people pirate the work of others and try to give it away for nothing.
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate, and I speak today in support of Ulster Scots music. When getting UK intellectual property accepted in other countries, especially the US, there is a large differential when it comes to patents because they cost between three and five times more than in any other country.
Pete Wishart
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about the value of patents to the UK economy. Hargreaves described patents in several choice words and phrases, and I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has paid close attention to the drift of Government policy. The attitude and policy towards patents that we are beginning to observe are alarming.
Let me say a little about why I have called this debate. I remember turning on the BBC news and thinking that it was great that the Prime Minister was taking an interest in intellectual property—I do not think that I had ever heard a Prime Minister hold a press conference on the issue. He was alleging that restrictive practices in our intellectual property laws would stop the emergence of something similar to Google in the United Kingdom, and he tasked Ian Hargreaves to look at intellectual property laws and our copyright regime to see if something could be done to amend the laws and regulations.
Ian Hargreaves was notionally in charge of that process, but having observed evidence being taken, and the report and recommendations be delivered, I suggest that the hand of the Intellectual Property Office was all over it. I believe that Ian Hargreaves was perhaps a figurehead, because the IPO seems to have driven the agenda. We will discuss some of the exceptions to copyright that the IPO proposed as part of its consultation, but it has been steering the process all the way through.
What is that predicated on? It is predicated on the belief that economic evidence should be at the heart of every initiative and everything that we do concerning intellectual property law. Ian Hargreaves has been perhaps a little cavalier when it comes to intellectual property, and we could say that he has made heroic assumptions about the value of some of the proposed recommendations and exceptions. Perhaps his most heroic statement claimed that if the Government implemented all the recommendations, GDP would increase by 0.6%. That is a huge figure.
I do not know whether the Minister thinks that such assumptions are based on reality. I think—I am not absolutely sure—that the Business Secretary described such figures as “ballpark.” If that is ballpark, the ball has not only been hit for six but has gone right out of the stadium, such is the relationship to reality of some of the economic assumptions and analyses made by Professor Hargreaves.
Let me give the Minister a couple of examples that I find funny—one cannot look at Hargreaves’s economic assumptions and analyses without needing a good sense of humour, and I will get on to parody later in the debate. The first assumption that we should consider—perhaps the Minister can write to me if he thinks that it comes anywhere close to reality—relates to an exception for private copying for format shifting. It is incredible. We are told that implementing the recommendation for an exception for format shifting for private use would bring some £2 billion per annum to the UK economy by 2020. That extraordinary figure is arrived at by assuming that the absence of a private copying exception has been responsible for restraining lots of UK technology firms that have been bursting with ideas for new pieces of hardware. I think the contention is that the iPod could have been invented in this country if it were not for that pesky copyright rule, which everyone ignores anyway. Seemingly, if format shifting were dealt with, the UK would be flooded with innovations. Lots of brand-new and fantastic products would materialise; the iPod would be reinvented; and millions and millions of pounds would flow into the economy. That is evidence and economic analysis Hargreaves and IPO-style.
Then there is the real rib-tickling one—parody. It is said that an exception for parody would be worth £600,000. Do you want to know what that figure was predicated on, Mr Caton? This is quite funny. The figure is arrived at by first taking the total value of the global entertainment market, which I think the IPO reckoned was $2 trillion. It estimated that, with a parody exception, the UK’s share of that market could grow by up to 0.05%, translating into annual growth of £130 million to £650 million.
Eric Joyce (Falkirk) (Lab)
Has the hon. Gentleman considered the fact that parody is supposed to be rib-tickling?
Pete Wishart
I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned that, because I intend to give an example of something that is really rib-tickling. I will explain how things work without an exception. Say that you wanted to parody the work of some famous group, Mr Caton. Let us take one at random. Let me see. How about the world’s only parliamentary rock band, the fantastic MP4? Say that you wanted to parody one of its fantastic works—perhaps even one penned by the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan). If you were intending to do that parody, you would come to me and the hon. Gentleman and ask us, and we, being reasonable folks, would agree to you doing that. If it became a worldwide hit—with your involvement, Mr Caton, there would be a very good chance of that—we would get our share and you would get your share. It would be absolutely fair. That is what professional parodists do now, and it works. Any suggestion that somehow our parody industry, our comedy industry, is being restrained and constrained by the lack of an exception is utter nonsense.
The IPO tells us that an exception will be worth £600,000. That is what the whole of the UK television industry reckons is the value of new parody each year. Again, it is a nonsensical figure. That seems to be the case through the whole of the Hargreaves review when we look at the economic assumptions. Those economic assumptions disappear as quickly as snaw off a dyke when put under any sort of challenge or assertion. For the benefit of my good friends in Hansard, that is what we say in Perthshire for snow off a wall.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
I am greatly enjoying the hon. Gentleman’s speech. He obviously has great knowledge, so it is with some trepidation that I ask him this question. I understand the points that he is making about the financially driven aspects of some of the Hargreaves report, but would he not welcome other aspects of it, such as the digital copyright exchange, minimum standards for transparency, and extensive collective licensing?
Pete Wishart
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her intervention. I did not mean to come across as being so hard on the good professor. Yes, the hon. Lady is right: of course there are things in the Hargreaves review that have to be welcomed. She is right to mention the digital copyright exchange. Under the leadership of Richard Hooper, we now have an opportunity to make that a fit-for-purpose exchange, but that will have to come through hard work. It will have to come through proper discussion and consultation with the sector and the industry.
There are things in the review that could be made to work, but I am not going to resist considering some of the bonkers economics behind the creation of a DCE. What figure was given for the value of a DCE? Was it £4 billion? That is based on one report from Copenhagen Economics, which assumes a number of things coming together—European directives and European institutions. Once again, we are talking about something that could be useful, but the economic analysis is woeful.
Rehman Chishti
With regard to digitisation and access to orphan works, does the hon. Gentleman agree with this point? If public institutions must pay a fee to digitise each item, not many public institutions will be doing that, and therefore we have to review that overall aspect and say that if there is to be a fee, it must be minimal; otherwise it will be a case of no fee.
Pete Wishart
Again, I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I can tell that he is passionate about the issues to do with orphan works, and he makes that point well. However, we must be careful about how we progress this agenda.
I want to touch on the exceptions that were not dealt with in the Hargreaves report. Some exceptions have just emerged as part of the IPO’s consultation and have caused immense concern, anxiety and grief. Those exceptions have to do with educational copying. This is a fundamental and very difficult issue. I am almost having to address this point to the IPO, because there is a sense that there is very little ministerial control when it comes to these things, but will the Minister please get in touch with these guys and get them to have a look at what they are doing with educational exceptions, because they are very dangerous? We could see no money whatever going to the people who provide educational materials, whether they are published works or programming—no money being collected on behalf of the people who produce that work for schools and other places of education. If there were to be no reward for people supplying that material to schools and colleges, why on earth would they do that? They will not do it for nothing. We are in real danger here. It is not only the authors and the people who make those programmes who will lose out. The schoolchildren and students will lose out, too, unless we resolve the issue, so will the Minister please examine that?
Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD)
I apologise to you, Mr Caton, and to the other hon. Members, but as the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) knows, I have to leave the Chamber in a few minutes. I am slightly disappointed that in an excellent speech, the hon. Gentleman has not made it absolutely clear what option 5 from the IPO with regard to educational exceptions means. It means in effect that an author could write a textbook, one copy could be printed and thereafter multiple copies could be made in schools throughout the land for children in those schools to use, with no reward going to the author and therefore not a cat in hell’s chance of that author ever bothering to write again.
Pete Wishart
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. That is why I did not make that point. I just knew that he was bursting to make it on my behalf, and he made it so much better than I ever could have, so I am grateful to him.
Nowhere in the Hargreaves report is there a real economic impact assessment. No assessment is made of the threat to existing businesses and existing business models from the recommendations. I am conscious that I have been speaking for almost half an hour. I want other hon. Members to be able to speak, so I will just say a couple more things.
What are we doing about the Digital Economy Act 2010? When will the recommendations be implemented? We need to get a move on. I know that it is not this Minister’s responsibility; it is down to the DCMS. That goes back to the problem that I was trying to explain earlier of the responsibility being split being Departments. That is of no use or value whatever. However, we need now to address the Digital Economy Act. We need to implement the recommendations. I am sure that the Minister saw the fantastic report done by the film industry that said that we are losing out by not tackling piracy effectively. We have seen the example of France. We know that measures similar to those in the DEA work. France has been able to direct traffic towards legal downloading sites, and there has been a decrease in pirated works, so we know that that works. The UK is falling behind countries such as New Zealand, France and Italy. We need to get on with implementing the recommendations in relation to the DEA.
I know that there is still work to be done with regard to Ofcom’s assessment, but the Minister should be on the phone to Ofcom daily, saying, “What’s going on? Come on, Ofcom. Get a move on. Make sure you put this code of practice in place.” We are still in the appalling situation in which very powerful internet service providers are, through various court actions, thwarting and frustrating the implementation of the DEA recommendations. Let us get on and ensure that we fix that.
This is an important sector. We need to fix or resolve a number of things. We need effective political control. We need to ensure that the IPO is properly managed, with ministerial authority and control over what is going on. We should remember that there is no content without the creator, the artist or the inventor. If we predicate our whole approach to the digital economy on the idea that those who abuse or use that content are of more concern and interest to the Government than those who create it, we will be in serious trouble, and we will cause serious damage.
We are at a crossroads with some of the consultations I mentioned. We could still have world-class creative industries; we have the greatest creative sector in the world, and we export more content per head of population than any other nation, so let us do absolutely nothing that threatens that. I trust that the Minister will take these points away with him and ensure that we continue to do everything we can in the best interests of our creative industries and our creative sector.
Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) on securing this important debate. As Members will gather, these issues are close to his heart and, given his interests, perhaps his wallet. As for a parody of MP4, however, I fear that the world is not ready quite yet for a remake of “This is Spinal Tap”, but perhaps the hon. Gentleman has other ideas.
Mark Field
I am afraid the hon. Gentleman is bursting the bubble of a man who thought of himself as a serious musician.
I want to put the issue into a broad economic context, before talking specifically about some of the intellectual property issues we have touched on. We rather easily forget that, amid all the west’s gloom and doom, economies across much of Asia, Australasia, south America and Africa are growing at a steady pace, and thank goodness, because where there is growth, there is opportunity. Unlike in the 1930s, when the global economy was shrinking, even the most pessimistic scenarios for economic growth worldwide today suggest that there will be 3.3% growth this year and that growth in 2011 was more than 4%. However, we still lack any overall strategic vision and message regarding the UK’s role in the new world that is unfolding before us. I appreciate that, in the face of such colossal difficulties, it sometimes sounds a little naive to talk just about wide-eyed optimism. All too often, however, the criticism of this country’s entire political class, going back some years, is that it seems almost to be in the business of managing decline, rather than of looking at Britain’s potential.
Over the past decade and a half, roughly three fifths of domestic expansion in the economy has arisen courtesy of the financial services, through the public sector or in the property and construction fields. The present squeeze will, of course, be most profound in those areas, and that will be the case for some time to come. If we discount those key drivers of the last boom, it is understandably difficult to predict with any confidence the precise economic activity in which the necessary supercharged levels of growth will come. We all pay lip service to boosting traditional manufacturing, and indeed new high-tech, high-resolution manufacturing, but we will face great competition in that respect. At the core of this debate, therefore, is what our strategy will be in an area where we continue to maintain a distinct reputation and a great competitive advantage—the export of intellectual property.
Let me take an example from close to home, in my constituency. Like the previous Government, the coalition has pinpointed the creative industries as a sector that offers a great prospect for future growth. Yet, in the two years I have been trying, as patron of Animation UK, to negotiate a tax credit for the animation industry, I have faced intransigence. The televised animation sector may appear to be only a small slice of the national economic cake, but as the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire has said, 0.6% here or there makes quite a big difference in the entirety of our GDP. In almost every other nation, however, the animation industry deems the reward of Government subsidy well worth the initial outlay.
British animators are losing work from these shores at an alarming rate because they cannot compete with the lure of Government-backed incentives elsewhere, which make it so much easier to put together the necessary funding packages for programme-making. One local animation business in my constituency, for instance, has recently taken calls at ministerial level from the Governments of Trinidad and Tobago and South Africa, advising it of the carrots on offer if it moved to those jurisdictions. In the case of South Africa, the carrots included free office space for three years and the waiving of particular local taxes.
It is fair to say that our DCMS team understands the problem, but over the past two years, the Treasury has seen only the up-front cost, rather than the longer-term, revenue-positive outlook. I do not blame the Treasury, given the problems with film benefits unravelling almost year by year. There must also be a sense that we need to think about not only the volume of product, but the quality. I also understand that the financial constraints we are under mean it is difficult to make the case for any tax breaks. Most critically, however, we seem to be ignoring an issue that explains why I, as a believer in free and open markets, support a targeted tax credit. Naturally, it would be good if a tax credit helped to keep animation jobs on these shores, but the real golden egg is the retention in this country of intellectual property rights.
The money generated annually worldwide from unimaginably successful franchises such as “Thomas the Tank Engine”, “Wallace and Gromit” and “Peppa Pig”, especially when it comes to all the secondary branded products, massively exceeds that brought in by high-profile films such “The King’s Speech”—a massive Oscar winner last year, which was, of course, helped along by the tax credit for films. To give some perspective, “Thomas the Tank Engine” tots up worldwide sales in excess of £1 billion every year, with his tales broadcast to more than 1 billion households in 185 countries each and every day. By contrast, “The King’s Speech”, which was hailed as the most successful British independent film ever, grossed just shy of £374 million, and that was essentially a one-off payment.
The issue is similar for the video games industry, which seeks comparable tax incentives to keep business on these shores. In addition to offering the revenue benefits that I have cited, the video games and animation industries are young industries. That is an ever more crucial factor at a time of rising youth unemployment. We need to give our brightest and best a reason to stay in this country. It is no good just offering them specialised creative university courses when the only jobs in the relevant industries are abroad.
Instead of tinkering temporarily with little pots of money here and there to boost shrinking sectors, it is time we started thinking more strategically about how we can—not just via the tax system—promote the sectors of our economy that offer potential growth. I entirely endorse what the hon. Gentleman said: intellectual property is one of the relatively few areas where we hold an historical advantage, and the market for many of our creative industries—partly because of the strength of the English language—is in the fast-growing territories outside the area of the north Atlantic economic downturn.
I want to end with a couple of important warnings for the future, which are slightly more general than my observations about particular industries in my constituency. First, there is no room for complacency about the west’s domination, as we see it, of the knowledge economy. Within the next 20 years, and perhaps rather sooner, I suspect that the IP rights that have underpinned the west’s competitive advantage—whether licensing, copyright or patents—will be due for a radical, philosophical shake-up. For example, an ever more assertive China will argue that traditional IP structures are no more than the west’s attempt to impose its own form of protectionism to suit its particular demographic. We cannot assume that the dominance of our values in determining global trade will remain unchecked. We should look out for China putting forward a more forceful argument along those lines during what might be increasingly fraught World Trade Organisation negotiations in the years ahead. With so many of our Government bonds being mopped up by sovereign wealth funds from the east, our bargaining hand may prove much weaker in the face of that apparent logic. We should look out, too, for the terms of Chinese investment in our companies. Alas, that is nothing new, but I suspect requests for technology transfer will be written into more and more deals as the price for eastern funding.
Finally, I want to highlight a concern that has been in my mind as a result of my work as a member of the Intelligence and Security Committee. Malicious cyber-activity requires much greater vigilance. Such activity can take the form of online fraud, espionage or terrorism, but of relevance to this debate are the ongoing and daily attempts to steal British-owned intellectual property—patents, ideas and designs. This occurs most obviously, but by no means exclusively, in the IT, technology, defence, engineering and energy sectors, and it is of course carried out primarily to gain competitive commercial advantage. Such attempts, I fear, are commonplace, and we must do all we can to educate businesses about the substantial risks that lie ahead.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) on obtaining the debate, and I apologise for the fact that I must depart early, because of Select Committee duties.
The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) has reminded me of the extraordinary genius that produced “Peppa Pig”. In the past fortnight I have seen Père Cochon and Maman Cochon, watching on Gallic television, as I do frequently—and there is a Dada Moch and a Mama Moch—in versions of “Peppa Pig”. Why should young children including my many grandchildren be fascinated by a mutant pig with both eyes on one side of her face? That, I presume, is explained by the nature of errant genius.
I speak with a special interest in the matter, because the Intellectual Property Office has the great good luck to be located in the wide open spaces of Newport West. When it was the Patent Office, its relocation was cited in the Lyons report as the exemplar of a splendid, profitable and intellectually successful relocation. I remind the House that the role of the office, which is very difficult and taxing, is
“to help manage an IP system that encourages innovation and creativity, balances the needs of consumers and users, promotes strong and competitive markets and is the foundation of the knowledge-based economy.”
That is a difficult task at the best of times, but it is near impossible to balance those priorities in the amazing world we are in, of technologies that extend our horizons in so many ways. While such tumult is going on, it is difficult for any of us to tell what the outcome will be or what the rules should be.
The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire discussed the use of parody. There is a lesson there. You may recall, Mr Caton, a parody of a song called “Empire State of Mind”, by Jay-Z and Alicia Keys. It was parodied by a group from, of all places, Swindon. That parody was called “Ymerodraeth State of Mind”, and contained the immortal line, “Newport, Newport”; it was then also parodied. A parody of the parody was made by the staggeringly talented Goldie Lookin Chain—a group with immense chutzpah. They made a version subtitled “You’re Not From Newport”—which of course is the most deadly insult one could offer anyone, particularly Cardiffians. It is the most withering thing one can say, as it exposes their deficiencies. Perhaps I should declare an interest, as whereas the original parody drew attention to bigging up the Welsh Assembly, the authentic version, sung in the cadences of Newport, suggested bigging up local Members of Parliament. Clearly that is a message of great value, and I wonder whether I should have mentioned any profits that the band made in my declarations of interest. The parody of a parody had 910,000 hits on YouTube, which is very impressive—nearly 1 million. However, the original version by Alicia Keys had 127 million on YouTube alone, let alone the rest of the world.
We must see such things in context. We want the fun of mockery in songs. The one in question gave many of my constituents great pleasure. When there is a clash between the interest of the small-scale creative industries and creative individuals, and huge businesses, with their almost infinite resources enabling them to persuade, buy access and get the ear of Prime Ministers and others, I think most of us instinctively know where our interest lies. We should also consider those who get great pleasure from the availability of music now, and the way it can be downloaded. It is impossible to put that genie back in any bottle. That will continue, and we cannot make rules to stop it.
In support of what the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire was saying in defence and promotion of the creative industries, I would say that the suggestion that the future patent court should be sited in the overcrowded cities of Paris, Munich or London is regrettable, when there is wonderful habitat waiting for it in the city of Newport. It seems extraordinary that that is not being considered. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate, and I hope that the voice and interests of the creators of property from which many others make huge sums of money will have the primary consideration in the difficult and bewildering decisions before us.
Eric Joyce (Falkirk) (Lab)
I have some brief remarks. I congratulate the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) on his speech, much of which I agreed with, and some of which I did not. The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) made an important and powerful point about China and the implications for the way business is done. That is not to say that we must yield to the way business is done in China and places like it, but that is an important part of the way things are done across the world. The market is huge, and that will unquestionably have implications for the way we do business, for copyright and for many business practices. We must accept that the way business is done elsewhere has implications for the creative industries. Sometimes we are slow to recognise that.
I agree with all hon. Members who have spoken that the importance of creative industries and intellectual property is enormous. The Publishers Association, the Authors Licensing and Collecting Society and others have produced some good briefs. However, I want to make a few counter-comments. There is a general trend in debates such as this to laud the importance of intellectual property, and, sometimes—as at the beginning of the speech of the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire—to see the counter-argument as a matter of big bad Google lobbying No. 10 in a somehow illegitimate way. I have no idea what the hon. Gentleman is referring to in saying that kind of stuff about special contacts inside Downing street.
Jim Dowd
I shall try to speak about this later if I catch Mr Caton’s eye, but the issue is not the fact that anyone has access to No. 10, because everyone should be able to have input into the political system; the fear is of the disproportionate influence that some people have.
Eric Joyce
I hear what my hon. Friend says, but in debates about intellectual property and copyright, as we have seen today—with one exception, on the matter of parody—the traffic all goes one way. It is quite easy to understand the importance of copyright, intellectual property and the creative industries. Conversely, it is easy to label people who copy things without paying for them as pirates and say they are committing illegal acts. However, without lauding that, it is a fact that the internet is a fantastic copying machine, and that is what happens. If we want to criminalise everyone who does it, we are on a hiding to nothing. We are criminalising everyone’s children to start with.
People sometimes say, “It’s exactly the same as theft. People download a record track and don’t pay for it. That is money that the industry forgoes.” That is a highly debatable and questionable proposition. Frequently, people want their stuff to be spread around the place and be copied, because it encourages other revenue streams.
Kevin Brennan
Of course my hon. Friend makes a valid point about criminalising everyone’s children, but is not the issue that powerful business interests effectively direct those who are searching for something on the internet to illegal sites that do not just copy the odd thing, but are factories for ripping off people’s intellectual property rights; and that if companies such as Google were more responsible and had some corporate social responsibility they would not be directing people, effectively, to the illegal end of the market?
Eric Joyce
Again, I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. Let us consider the propositions that Google polices the entire internet or the realm that it can police, and that internet service providers make their own judgments about what they should close, and let us imagine that they close down domains and that people cannot access all sorts of things out there on the basis of judgments made by commercial entities. There is a trend in the governance of the internet by some countries to want heavily to regulate its use. Looking across the world, such Governments tend to be those who are not particularly democratic. In democratic states, the trend is to say that the internet should have a degree of laissez-faire and, as Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn said—in many ways, they instigated the internet back in the ’60s and ’70s—it should be impartial as to its use and there should be no state governance.
That is the general assumption in theory in western and democratic states. However, we have heard the recent comments by the EU Justice Commissioner on the data protection directive on the right to be forgotten—that people should be able to take down accurate, legitimate data if they do not like having them up there and that they should be able to scrub out bits of history. Commercial interests want ISPs to police the internet and to take stuff down based on their commercial judgments, or that some Government-led body should make judgments about what is on the internet. The general trend is to have a high degree of directorial control by Governments over the internet and that sometimes extends to such corporate arguments.
Kevin Brennan
With your permission, Mr Caton, I have just googled “Empire State of Mind” by Alicia Keys and Jay-Z, and the first five results offered a free download of that track on Google. Why does a Google search not direct people to a legal site where they could purchase the track?
Eric Joyce
That is exactly the point I am making about censorship of the internet. The problem is that that is the way it is. In due course, industries will have to adapt to that way. The fact is that things will continue to be copied and industries with current business models will have to adjust. Of course, we have to do what we can within the realms of possibility to protect those industries but, inevitably, there will be a degree of evolution. Each time we have such a debate, the overwhelmingly dominant argument is for the protection of current business models, but people in those industries must know that things have to change.
Things will continue to be copied, and I would not advocate the degree of censorship of the internet that my hon. Friend seems to do. Essentially, it is straightforward for mirror sites to pop up, and it is virtually impossible to close down a site and prevent another one opening up to sell the same stuff. Yesterday, I thought that it would be quite interesting to set up an experiment with a page, with some people trying to keep the page alive and with the ISPs trying to close it down. I absolutely guarantee that those trying to keep that page up somewhere on the internet—it would inevitably appear in a Google search—would always win the day. The ISPs can close a site, but they cannot prevent the existence of the ideas in the site.
Kevin Brennan
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way once again. May I clarify that I am not advocating censorship, as he put it, of the internet? I am simply saying that the corporate social responsibility of a large corporation would surely require it to ensure that its algorithms and systems generate a search that directs people to legal sites. Such corporations are perfectly capable of doing that, even if illegal searches appear way down in the list of pages. The fact that those sites are listed at the top—often in the paid advertising part of a Google search, so contributing to Google’s profitability—does not show corporate social responsibility.
Eric Joyce
I am not sure that my hon. Friend is right about paid advertisements for illegal sites. I entirely understand the frustration at the Google algorithm producing sites that have unlawful content—we are talking about unlawful rather than legal content—but he is advocating censorship of the internet. Google would have to censor hundreds of thousands or millions of sites out there.
I am currently on the Joint Committee on Privacy and Injunctions. It is interesting that its members are sometimes tempted to say, “Hang on, we could censor that, because that is done in China or because Twitter now has a new business model so that it can constrain certain types of tweets—especially those with references to religion or politics—for regimes in certain parts of the world.” It is true that Twitter could do that and that Google could constrain what is said on the internet, but we have to look at the flipside and ask whether that is particularly healthy in a democratic society.
Mark Field
The hon. Gentleman is making a very interesting contribution to this debate. It strikes me that he is overly pessimistic, given his view, which is absolutely right, that the interest is essentially a slightly chaotic and libertarian organisation. As he made clear in his example, the power of the individual will overcome the influence of even the biggest and best-funded international organisations. However, does he not have the slight concern that the crime is not entirely victimless? Much high-profile organised crime and terrorism is funded through the abuse of copyright and patents, and through the lucrative sale of DVDs and the like. It would make more sense to try to address that directly, rather than to look just to uphold intellectual property laws.
Eric Joyce
I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I may sound as if I am making a polemical argument against copyright, but I am not. Of course it is true that many bad organisations can profit and that money can go to ropey or even to dangerous things at one end of the spectrum, but at the other end is a fat bloke in Australia who is buying cars and boats. I suspect that much of the fraud is not done by those committing heinous acts.
I shall start to conclude, because my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham West and Penge (Jim Dowd) wishes to speak. The root fact is that, however powerfully one lobbies to protect copyright, Hargreaves has tried to look in an intelligent, evidence-based way at copyright law and the existing rules. He did so in a limited way, because sovereign states in Europe are constrained in what we can do. I do not agree with the assessment of the IPO made by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire, although I agree with some of his points about the DCMS and BIS. As we know, that originated with an unfortunate comment about the very odd structure by the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. The IPO and Hargreaves are endeavouring to have a proper evidence-based assessment. The consultation that is currently under way is entirely in earnest.
Hargreaves has urged the Government
“to ensure that in future, policy on Intellectual Property issues is constructed on the basis of evidence”.
That is not an unreasonable claim. It is true that the exceptions raised, including about education and data-mining, are possibly entirely valid, but until we see evidence and figures, we cannot tell. It is therefore important that people come forward not only with emotive arguments—they are often based simply on retaining the status quo and without any movement, regardless of technological shifts—but with evidence.
We have had the Hargreaves review and the Hooper review on the digital copyright exchange, against which I have no doubt that the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire will rail in a future debate. They are genuine efforts by good people to get to the root of a complicated issue. Within the copyright industry and among High Court judges—I have spoken to judges at all different levels, including those in the High Court—everyone recognises that copyright law is very old and outdated, and that it is difficult to make it fit into a modern context. Essentially, Hargreaves was trying to resolve that, as will Hooper.
To conclude, the doom and gloom with which the hon. Gentleman presented the Hargreaves review and the consultation is not a fair reflection on the efforts of Hargreaves and the IPO. I have every respect for creators who want to retain the maximum benefit for themselves—of course they do—but we must set that in the realistic context that people will copy stuff. That is the way it is, and criminalising everyone is not a particularly constructive way forward.
Martin Caton (in the Chair)
Mr Dowd, I will call you now but will be grateful if you could resume your seat by 10.40 am to allow time for the wind-ups.
Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab)
Mr Caton, I will meet your requirement—indeed will attempt to exceed it, by finishing before then. I am sure everybody would like to hear from the Front-Bench speakers, particularly the Minister in his first outing in this guise. I am sure he wants to practise his skills in this area.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) on initiating the debate. He has a well-deserved reputation in the House for his attention to these matters, and his encyclopaedic knowledge of them. It is a great opportunity for the rest of us. Since the last debate we had in Westminster Hall on the matter, things have changed somewhat. As far as I can recall, my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk (Eric Joyce) sat here and I sat there. Beyond that, the arguments seem to be running in very similar fashion.
It is fitting that we should have this debate today, as it is the 200th anniversary of the birth of Charles Dickens, one of the most prolific, creative and productive writers of 19th-century Victorian Britain, who had quite a few struggles himself over the rights to his own material in the days when ideas about copyright were somewhat primitive, to put it mildly.
I say to the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) that, as others have echoed, China’s attitude to intellectual property, patents and copyright is changing, I believe, although it is different from our own. I remember many years ago—I think I am probably the oldest person in the room—that under the first Wilson Government, de Havilland, as it then was, sold two Trident aircraft to the Chinese Government. For those of shorter memory, Britain used to make quite a few aircraft on its own in the 1960s. It sold two Tridents and said it was the great breakthrough into the far east, China and the burgeoning Chinese market. However, the Chinese used one for training crews and dismantled the other one to replicate it. At that time their internal airlines were totally crude: I think they were called The East is Red airline or something. They produced an aircraft that bore an astonishing similarity to the Trident, and de Havilland never sold an extra single plane to them. There are different views about copyright in the world.
Others have mentioned the importance of creative industries to Britain in particular and the knowledge-based economy we are in. It is not only innovation and creativity in the arts and literature that we have to encourage. Even though we have a declining manufacturing base, it is more productive than ever, and we need innovation and adaptation in the field of manufacture as much as anywhere else. Governments have to construct and encourage an environment that nurtures and rewards originality and innovation.
The Intellectual Property Office, as the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire mentioned, seems to have one particular idea of its role in trying to do that. However, it is not just about that. I have a document saying that its view is:
“Copyright should only limit the use of creative works to the extent necessary for it to fulfil its central objective—the provision of incentives to creators.”
It is not just an incentive, that is true, but it is a reward for effort, for work done. This makes it sounds as though it is doing them a favour by offering them something. I do accept from my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk that there is undeniably a consumer interest. The whole matter does not revolve solely around the consumer or the producer. The challenge for any Government is to work out where the best balance lies. One might say that is the essence of politics—working out where the balance lies on an issue. There are benefits.
However, I want to pick up what my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk said about the almost anarchic nature of the internet and web. It is not just that it is difficult, which is true. Some people feel that we are being lulled into a position where people say that nothing can be done, and therefore do not even try. That is not true. On the matter of illegal sites, I read yesterday about a site whose name I cannot immediately remember—my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) can probably Google it while I am talking. NewBiz, an illegal download site, has been taken off the BT ISP and just this week Sky announced it is doing that. I accept what my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk says: one is chasing one’s tail in many respects. However, just because one cannot do everything does not mean one does not do anything. One makes the effort one can. There must be a reward for behaving properly, just as there must be a penalty for behaving badly or, in some cases, criminally.
I want to spend a couple of minutes referring to an issue raised by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire and the right hon. Member for Bath (Mr Foster), who is no longer in his place. That is the matter of the IPO’s exercise of extending copyright exceptions for educational use. That has certainly caused a lot of concern and dismay in various parts of the creative community, because of the thrust of the consultation. I know the consultation is open until the middle of March and is still trying to amass information. The policy options outlined start with option zero, which is to do nothing, followed by:
“Option 1: Expand the types of works covered by education exceptions…Option 2: Increase the proportion of a copyright work that can be copied under the education exceptions. Option 3: Expand the definition of current education exceptions to enable distance learners to access educational materials over secure networks. Option 4: Widen the definition of an ‘educational establishment’. Option 5: Remove the ability of licensing arrangements to restrict the use of exceptions.”
That is the one we discussed earlier and essentially ignores the rights of all copyright holders and says it is for the benefit of educational establishments. The tone of the document is very much slanted to that option. In fact, in the evidence base, it says that that is the option closest to Government policy. That in particular is what is disturbing writers.
I confess an interest—not a pecuniary or financial one, but because it is a matter that interests me. I am an officer of the all-party parliamentary intellectual property group and of the all-party parliamentary writers group, and this matter is important to writers.
Having set out the options, the document states at the end:
“We do not have a preferred option at this stage (see page 22 for reason why).”
Everything in the evidence base shows that that is where it is pushing the consultation, to make it more liberal, almost to the point where it is a free-for-all. What worries a lot of writers and those in the community is that there is no clear indication as to where the pressure has come from to undertake the review and to undermine the position of the Copyright Licensing Agency and the Educational Recording Agency. There is no indication why it is being undertaken. There is no information stating that the current system, as it is operating, is not satisfactory. Nobody, no identifiable educational institution, nobody operating in that field has come forward and said that this is a major encumbrance to using whiteboards or other material that we need for our studies.
Where has the impetus for this come from, other than a desire for deregulation? That may be a useful thing in some circumstances, but when it becomes the object of the policy, it needs to be examined. It is a good servant but a poor master. That is where I tend to agree more with the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire, that this is what the IPO thinks the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills now wants to hear. I am sure the organisation’s being in Newport is a major benefit but has nothing to do with it. The fact is that there is little or no political control apparent.
I tabled a few parliamentary questions about how the report was compiled and, in particular, the impact assessment. I received a reply that the impact assessment had been
“prepared…using publicly available data, including evidence provided to the Intellectual Property Office by interested parties.”—[Official Report, 30 January 2012; Vol. 539, c. 459W.]
In the evidence base, it states that evidence is being called for as part of the assessment of which option to follow, so it looks as if someone got the inside track. I will not suggest who that might be; I have no evidence. All I am saying is that the exercise should be concluded as rapidly as possible, with the minimum possible change required, because otherwise the destabilisation of those writing for the educational community will be complete.
I abide by your exhortation, Mr Caton, and leave my remarks there.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. I congratulate the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) on securing the debate, which is his second on this subject during this Parliament. He certainly is a champion of the creative industries’ property rights, and does all he can to ensure that the Government are held to account.
We have had an interesting and lively debate. The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) made an eloquent call for an industrial policy for the creative industries, and I look forward to the Minister’s response. My hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn), who is no longer in his place, gave a very interesting example of musical innovation through parody. My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham West and Penge (Jim Dowd) reminded us that today is Dickens’s birthday, which should inspire us all, and my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk (Eric Joyce) bravely did us all a service by putting forward what he termed the alternative view of internet freedom.
Today’s debate shows that intellectual property is a complex area, and that it arouses passionate responses because it affects the livelihoods of well-loved artists as well as the business models of very large companies. We have heard how important the creative industries are to this country, and I want to emphasise that. We are world players—indeed, world leaders—on the creative stage. Our musicians are top of the world’s charts, our films win Oscars as well as BAFTAs, and the release of many a British computer game is a major event across the world. But I also want to emphasise that IP is not only a matter for the creative industries. It includes patents, designs, trademarks and copyright, and is therefore the basis of almost all the non-tangible assets of the vast mass of industry, including very real world industries, such as manufacturing, and service industries, such as consultancy and advertising.
IP is an important part of the economic base for innovation, because it recognises and rewards the successful new idea, process, invention or song, and therefore provides an incentive for innovation, be it musical or technological. Innovation has been the engine of progress throughout history, and it continues to be a key part of growth. Recent analysis from the Harvard Business School suggests that 80% of growth is driven by innovation. The contribution of intellectual property to economic growth cannot therefore be doubted, especially now, when the internet is becoming such an important platform for commerce and for ensuring that there is greater and greater opportunity to exchange ideas creatively. We must do all we can to ensure that our intellectual property system guarantees that the right rewards are available to promote innovation, and thus economic growth.
As I said, intellectual property is also, however, a complex affair, and from the very start of a legal framework for copyright and patent law there have been those who have argued against it on the basis that it limits the free expression of ideas and therefore limits innovation. The wrong kind of intellectual property environment can certainly act as a barrier to innovation, and therefore to economic growth. I regularly speak to business people up and down the country, who complain that universities’ too protective attitude to their own intellectual property is making it more and more difficult for businesses and universities to work together effectively in the translation of intellectual property into technical products and services. Small companies can, of course, have their IP stolen by larger companies, which are better armed with more and better-paid lawyers. We need to ensure that the IP trolls are encouraged to free their IP, to enable genuine innovation and commercial success.
Technological advances have made certain types of intellectual property more difficult to protect. We have the recent example of megaupload.com. Its owners—if that is the right word—became multimillionaires through effectively supporting the illegal downloading of films and other creative content, and it is good to see that the international legal framework has worked to ensure that the site has been closed down. Illegal file sharing is certainly costing the creative industries dearly, given their current business models, and the previous Government set out ways of addressing that in the Digital Economy Act 2010.
We should not forget, however, that there are companies that are thriving under the existing copyright system, particularly those born digital. The Association for UK Interactive Entertainment, which represents the video games industry, tells me it has huge success in providing creative content through a wide variety of business models tailored to meet the needs of different demographics. This is a global industry predicted to be worth £50 billion by 2014. Many interactive entertainment companies have had huge success with the freemium business model, in which games are initially free but then users pay for additional content and features. I recently met Moshi Monsters—not the actual monsters, but their chief executive officer. Based on London’s Silicon roundabout, the company has used the freemium model to go from a tiny start-up to a $200 million business with 50 million users worldwide.
Intellectual property is a complex area, and it is essential to get the incentives right. That no doubt explains the long list of reviews carried out over the past few years, including Gowers, Byron and Hargreaves, and that is without considering all the work undertaken at the European level, such as with the European copyright directive and more recently the proposals for a unified patent court. Although I recognise that complexity, I am increasingly concerned that the Government are not taking the action necessary to get to grips with this. The rumours that the Hargreaves review was initiated because the Prime Minister had his ear bent by Google did not help its credibility, and although the report was generally well received, some of the evidence on which its conclusions were based has been questioned. So I am anxious to receive clear signs from the Minister that the Government are leading from the front on intellectual property, and not dithering as we saw with the 4G auctions. Certainly, when Labour was in office we did not want for reviews or action, but it is in the nature of such a fast-moving environment that the policy responses need to evolve.
Can the Minister tell us when the Government plan fully to implement all the measures in the Digital Economy Act, and if measures such as the public lending right in relation to electronic publications, and the content-blocking provisions, are not to be implemented, can he explain why? Do the Government have any plans to look more widely at intellectual property issues, such as patent law and the role IP plays in standardisation, particular regarding the proposals for a unified patent court? What are their thoughts on that? With regard to the Hargreaves review proposals for the digital copyright exchange, can the Minister update us on when he expects that to be in place, and on the measures being taken to address the concerns of the collecting agencies and the educational establishments? What steps is he taking to ensure that university intellectual property incentivises working with businesses, rather than against them? Finally, does abolishing the strategic advisory board for intellectual property policy, which provides independent and, importantly in the context of the debate, evidence-based advice to Government on IP, mean that they think a strategic approach to IP is no longer necessary?
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) on securing the debate, or as he delicately put it, this “little chit-chat”. He has a long-standing interest in a wide variety of music—I will be polite about MP4, as two of its esteemed members are here today. I say that as a parliamentary chorister, albeit a rather ropey baritone at the moment. He also has a strong interest in the broader issue of intellectual property and copyright.
The debate is important and timely. Questions have been asked about the nature of the proposals that the Intellectual Property Office put into the consultation, but the point is that it is a consultation. The debate is useful, and I am sure that some of the questions asked—I will come to option 5 and schools and universities in a moment—will be incorporated into Ministers’ thinking.
The hon. Gentleman raised concerns about the Government’s commitment and co-ordination, and I can honestly tell him that all the engaged Ministers, Ministries and the IPO work very closely together. We recognise that the matter needs to be looked at from both the cultural and social sides—our music, language and literature—as well as, of course, the economic side. In a sense, striking that balance effectively is what really lies at the heart of much of the debate, challenging though it is in many senses. Consulting and raising options—which, as the hon. Member for Lewisham West and Penge (Jim Dowd) pointed out, range from option 1, doing nothing, to option 5, which some would see as the radical option—in no way demonstrates a bias against copyright. The Government do not hold that position. We want to ensure that we strike the right balance.
My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) rightly highlighted the danger of believing that on our own we can simply continue as was. We would be ignoring the coming and growing challenge to the nature of what we think is the right structure for IP. That does not mean that we need to acquiesce, but it does mean that we need to be proactive.
On the broad context, the Government have made it very clear that growth is a priority. To achieve that, we need a robust and flexible intellectual property framework. As we have heard, it must be robust enough to encourage investment in new creative works and technologies and in building brands and designs, as the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) pointed out. Yet the system also needs to be flexible enough to evolve as technologies change and so support innovation across the economy. That applies to not only high-tech sectors, but high-tech processes. If I had told you 20 years ago, Mr Caton, that vacuum cleaners would be at the heart of new technology, you might have been forgiven for thinking that I had lost any sense of normality, and yet Sir James Dyson has demonstrated that a whole market can be changed through IP and innovation. We need to ensure that we do not confuse process with sector.
Hon. Members on both sides have referred to the economic importance of IP, which is absolutely right and illustrated by the fact that as a country we now invest over 30% more in intangible assets, such as IP, than in conventional machinery and computers. Most recent developments in technology have depended on IP, and such developments have in turn affected its management and use. These things are interwoven and we need to understand their interaction. In this continually changing technological environment, particularly looking at access to markets and illegal downloads, the Government must think about how we get the balance right for both the creators and the consumer.
We need an IP system that helps business and consumers to realise all the opportunities presented, which is why we are actively supporting the UK’s creators and the creative industries and why, to benefit creators, we voted in Europe to extend the term of protection for sound recordings from 50 to 70 years—a really important step for originators of music and other sound recordings. It is also why we brought charities within the scope of music licensing rules and pressed to introduce measures to tackle online infringement of copyright through the Digital Economy Act 2010.
In response to questions from several hon. Members, I can say that we are closely considering whether to block access to websites that infringe copyright. We will have something to say about that shortly, but, as I would like to continue to have a positive working relationship with my ministerial colleagues in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, I shall not pre-empt what they are about to say. An announcement is imminent, and I think that it will be welcomed.
The other half to ensuring that creators are supported is IP enforcement. We are just as serious about ensuring that individuals breaching the law will be brought to justice and sending that signal. To be fair, we saw an improvement between 2006 and 2009—the latest statistics that we have to hand. There was effectively a doubling of the number of criminal cases brought under the previous Government, and we welcome and support that pattern. In 2009, 75% of all copyright cases resulted in a conviction and 80% of all criminal IP proceedings ended with a guilty verdict. That is an important signal to send. My ministerial colleague, Baroness Wilcox, recently joined an enforcement team in Manchester to see what happens on the ground. The raid secured large quantities of counterfeit products and seven arrests were made.
We need a more concerted approach, which is why we launched the IP crime strategy. It renews the focus on getting the legal framework right, co-ordinates IP crime enforcement and, most importantly, supports intelligence-led enforcement. That touches on the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster made about the international and online issues.
Rehman Chishti
On the review and strategy, will the Minister look at access to orphan works, public institutions and, in particular, imposing no fees for projects of national importance?
Mr Prisk
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. He raised that issue in the debate, and we are looking at and consulting on it. The National Archives, to which he referred, is part of that and we welcome its contribution. The tricky thing is how to best encourage digitisation and ensure that the rights owners are paid a fair rate, and we are looking at that balance with orphan works. I am sure that the representations from the National Archives that he talked about would be welcome.
I shall briefly come on to copyright in the time that I have remaining. We need to ensure that we strike a balance, so that, yes, in a world in which we can all create and use works, we also recognise that many people can be destructive, intentionally or otherwise—a good point raised earlier. We therefore have to consider whether the rules created before the digital transformation still fit the world that we live in today. Through the consultation, which is quite broad, we are trying make it easier for people to understand and use copyrighted materials, to remove bureaucracy and to boost innovation and growth. Some people have concerns about the framework that we have identified, and I have mentioned orphan works.
I shall briefly mention schools, because several hon. Members raised the issue. We must recognise that most schools operate with electronic whiteboards, broadband-delivered homework and other multi-media tools. Therefore, today’s classroom is a potential legal minefield, as the law lags behind modern teaching practice. We have had representations from universities and the Association of Colleges, and the hon. Member for Falkirk (Eric Joyce) also alluded to the problem. Let us be clear: we have no intention of dismantling copyright licensing schemes for education. Schools, colleges and universities will still need licences for many of their activities, including photocopying books. With specific regard to the concerns raised about option 5 in the consultation, that option relates to short extracts only. I hope that gives some clarity to the discussion. We are considering how we can make it easier for teachers and lecturers to use copyrighted materials practicably, so we are seeking further evidence on the costs and benefits of current copyright licensing arrangements in the educational sector.
In the final moments, I shall just say that the issue is very complex, but we are determined to move steadily forward using the good evidence available and balancing it with effective consultation. Many right hon. and hon. Members recognise that it is an awkward balance, and we must recognise the international context as well. The Government’s proposals for copyright will not endanger the health of our creative industries.
Alcohol Strategy
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)
How far should the state step in to regulate the free market and alcohol? If a jumbo jet fully laden with passengers crashed over Britain every fortnight, drastic action would be taken, and that is what we are talking about—22,000 people die every year in Britain as a result of alcohol. The Office for National Statistics cites the figure of 8,790, but that excludes all the accidental deaths, the homicides, the impulsive suicides and the many victims of road traffic accidents. Alcohol is linked to more than 60 medical conditions, including many cancers.
Some will argue that this is all about personal responsibility and that we should resist the interference of the nanny state, but how can the 705,000 children who live with an alcohol-dependent parent exercise personal responsibility? We have a blind spot when it comes to the destructive effect of alcohol. Yesterday, I spoke to Stephen Otter, the chief constable of Devon and Cornwall police, who told me that the statistics for 2004-05 showed that about a third of violent crime in Devon and Cornwall was related to alcohol. Since then, the statistics have followed a steadily upward path and alcohol is now related to about half of such crime. The trend is increasing, so how do the victims of violent crime feel when we say that we should leave this to the market?
What about taxpayers? The cost of the epidemic is out of control. It is at least £20 billion, but if we look at the finer details of the impact on productivity, we will see that the evidence given to the Health Committee when it looked at this issue showed that the cost could be as high as £55 billion. At a time when the NHS has to make efficiency savings of £20 billion over the next four years, is it right that we are flushing down the drain at least £20 billion a year on alcohol?
The Secretary of State talks frequently about outcomes, so I would like to give some that I think he should look at. Forty per cent. to 70% of all accident and emergency admissions are related to alcohol. The impact on health inequalities is undeniable. The difference between the poorest and the wealthiest neighbourhoods in terms of average life expectancy is about seven years, and early deaths from alcohol-related liver disease are a significant contributor to that. Almost one in four deaths in young people is directly caused by alcohol. That means that every week 12 young people are losing their lives, which is a far higher figure than the number who die as a result of knife crime.
Positive outcomes could be achieved from a reduction in teenage pregnancies, as well as in educational failure and its impact and sexually transmitted diseases. The state has a duty to protect young people and take action. On personal responsibility, harmful drinking does not just affect the individual; it has a knock-on effect on all those around them when they leave a destructive trail in their wake.
If it were possible to solve this problem just through education and gentleman’s agreements with the drinks industry and supermarkets, I would say that we should go that way, but that approach has clearly failed. The fact is that when alcohol is too cheap, people die. That was as true in the 18th century with its gin craze as it is today. This, however, is a general debate on what should be in the alcohol strategy, so I do not want to dwell too long on pricing. Suffice it to say that without action on pricing, I am afraid that nothing else will be as effective as it could be. Alcohol is no ordinary commodity and we should not treat it just through market forces.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
My hon. Friend appears to be making a coherent argument for banning alcohol altogether. I am concerned that she is like the anti-smoking lobby, which tries to come up with different things to restrict smoking in order to hide its real agenda, which is to abolish smoking altogether. If she thinks that alcohol is such a bad thing and that it does so much damage, why not have the courage of her convictions, follow her argument through and say that alcohol should be banned altogether?
Dr Wollaston
There is a simple reply to that question—it would not work. We have seen that clearly from the efforts at prohibition in the States. I myself enjoy a drink, as I am sure do most Members present. Everyone might like a drink, but nobody likes a drunk, and that is what this is about. It is not about stopping people drinking, but about asking at what point the state should step in to address the real harm. There is a balance to be achieved. I am not suggesting for one moment that my proposals will stop people drinking, and I would not want them to do so. I just want to do something about 22,000 people dying every year in this country.
I propose that we act on price and address availability, marketing, education and labelling, and that we take action on offending behaviour. We should also change the drink-drive limit. Crucially, if we are to put all those measures in place, we also need to help people who already have a problem, which means better screening and treatment in the health service for hazardous, harmful and dependent drinkers. It is also time to send a clear message that we have had enough of drunken antisocial behaviour and violent crime.
On availability—I will try to be brief, because I know that lots of Members want to speak—I welcome the consultation on dealing with the problem of late-night drinking. It is absolutely right that communities should have a greater say in the licensing hours, and I welcome the return from 3 am back to midnight and the idea that those who supply late-night alcohol should contribute to the clean-up cost. Will the Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Anne Milton), go further and address whether supermarkets should face greater penalties? The problem for late-night premises and clubs is that their customers are already drunk when they arrive, having pre-loaded on very cheap alcohol. It is crucial that supermarkets should contribute to the clean-up cost.
On marketing, we currently spend £800 million a year on alcohol marketing, which dwarfs the budget given to the Drinkaware Trust, which is industry controlled. There is clear evidence that marketing encourages not only drinking earlier, but children to drink more when they do. Although it is encouraging that fewer children overall are drinking, we should still remember that, after the Isle of Man and Denmark, we are the country with the highest levels of binge drinking and drunkenness in our schoolchildren. The problem is that the current controls are complex and easily circumvented. There is an off-the-peg solution that is compatible with European Union law, namely to introduce similar measures to those in France under the Loi Évin. Rather than having a set of complicated measures saying what we cannot do, we would set out clearly where alcohol can be marketed and everything else would not be allowed. If we want to protect children, why do we allow alcohol advertising before screenings of 15-cetificate films? It is also confusing that, while we say that alcohol cannot be associated with youth culture or sporting success, we allow alcohol-related sponsorship of the FA cup and events such as T in the park. We need to protect children.
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)
Does the hon. Lady agree that it is no coincidence that, between 1992 and 1996, when the advertising budget for alcohol products marketed at young people rose from £150 million to £250 million, the number of schoolchildren drinking alcohol doubled?
Dr Wollaston
That is a valuable point and clear evidence that marketing encourages children to drink, to start drinking younger and to drink more when they do. We should protect young people—that is an absolute duty of the state.
On education, the most important point is clear labelling. The drinks industry has made some progress, but if it does not meet its targets the issue should be mandated so that people can be clear about how many units they are drinking and receive advice on the sensible limits.
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
The hon. Lady is making a powerful case and she can rest assured that most Members present do not think that she is anything like Eliot Ness. On her point about labelling, many of us were rather disappointed that more was not done on the subject of food labelling. Is there a case for us to do what is done in New York state in terms of food labelling, where an outlet that has more than two branches labels the calorie intake? That gives people a choice and also provides information.
Dr Wollaston
That is an excellent point, and I thank the hon. Lady for making it. Certainly, many young women drinkers would be deterred if they realised what the calorie content is for some of the popular alcohol mixer drinks. That might help to stem the rise in vodka mixer drinking among young women.
John Pugh (Southport) (LD)
Is the hon. Lady aware that there is a problem with EU legislation in terms of putting the calorific amount on the bottle?
Dr Wollaston
I thank the hon. Gentleman for making that point. EU legislation is getting in the way of an awful lot of the measures I would like to be introduced.
Returning to why education should not be in the hands of the drinks industry, I would like to draw hon. Members’ attention to a problem that arose when the Drinkaware Trust introduced its safe drinking recommendations. It presented those recommendations not as a safe upper limit but a recommended daily amount, as if it were marketing them as a vitamin intake. There is a clear conflict of interest in having the drinks industry controlling education. Although I welcome much of the Drinkaware Trust’s work, I do not see the need for the drinks industry to be on the board and would like the Minister to comment on that if possible. Following the report of the Select Committee on Science and Technology, the clear message should be that people should take at least two alcohol-free days a week to protect themselves.
Turning to the health service, relatively few hospitals have a dedicated alcohol service. It is a shame that only 5.7% of dependent or harmful drinkers are able to access treatment compared with 67% of dependent or harmful drug users. There is a clear case for changing that. One third of people who are admitted to hospital with acute liver disease die immediately, and the mortality rate for that has remained unchanged for 15 years. They die without being able to be aware that they even had a problem in the first place.
I would like to make the case for having much better services for screening and early intervention because such an approach works. Some 12% of people who are given brief advice and are informed that they are developing harmful or hazardous drinking traits will significantly cut down or stop drinking. Such a scheme is highly cost-effective, and I would like it to be rolled out, particularly in casualty departments. All hospitals should have a seven-day acute nurse specialist to give brief advice and intervention. That approach should be rolled out further to GP surgeries through the quality and outcomes framework and should also be available in community pharmacies, so that we can let people have clear information and advice. As I say, we should do that, principally, because such a scheme is evidence based and works.
Regarding people who already have a problem, it is time for all hospitals to have a dedicated alcohol specialist team and an assertive outreach team, particularly to help those revolving-door patients who come in and out of hospital repeatedly. They often have complex mental health needs and issues surrounding homelessness. Again, such an approach has a very strong evidence base and is cost-effective.
The law and order challenge for our police force is vast. May I pay tribute to the people who are at the sharp end of all this? Police officers, street pastors, casualty workers and ambulance staff bear the brunt of the problem. The police are making progress. I pay tribute to Devon and Cornwall police for their work. In my area, people who are picked up by the police can choose between a fixed penalty notice of £80 or attending a course run by Druglink. For those people who attend those courses, there is only a 2% offending rate. That is an example of something very positive that we should be moving forward with.
We should also carefully consider what has been happening in South Dakota in the USA, where they have introduced mandatory breath testing for those convicted of an alcohol-related offence. That has significantly reduced the prison population and has had an effect on domestic violence rates. It would be sensible to at least pilot that in this country to establish whether such a model could work here.
There is a strong case for reducing the drink-drive limit from 80 mg per 100 ml of blood to 50 mg, if for no other reason than for the sake of the 380 people who are killed every year on our roads and the more than 11,900 who are injured. Of course, we also need to give the police greater powers to breath test people.
What about the industry’s role? There is a role for industry in reducing product strength and I welcome those who have already taken action along that line. Crucially, business models should be changed, so that they are based on quality not quantity. The opinion is that that is what has had the greatest effect on the continent, where there have been significant falls in drinking levels because of the move away from drinking vast quantities of plonk towards drinking smaller quantities of quality product. That is something we could do here. I would like to see further work on the use of responsible locations in supermarket aisles and, as I have said, further progress on labelling.
I repeat that it is not the place or the responsibility of the drinks industry to define public health policy. There is a clear conflict of interest. It is time for us to follow an evidence-based approach built on medical advice and for there to be far less involvement with the drinks industry in dictating policy.
I have already been fortunate to lead a debate on alcohol taxation, so I will not repeat the points I made then. I hope that other hon. Members will give us advice on why the introduction of minimum pricing is compatible with EU legislation. I know that the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) will do so. The fact that price influences behaviour is, beyond doubt, completely undeniable. There has recently been further evidence from British Columbia about the impact of minimum pricing, based on 20 years of experience. There has also been evidence from Scotland, where the change in pricing policies, particularly those inhibiting multi-buys, have caused a 14% fall in beer sales. I will conclude and allow other Members to contribute by saying that there is no such thing as a cheap drink, but we are all paying a very heavy price.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to speak in this debate with you in the Chair, Mr Caton, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) on securing it. She is a doughty campaigner on the issue and a valued colleague on the Select Committee on Health. Who would have realised that alcohol would be such a hot topic this week? I am not going to name the beer concerned, but clearly certain beers need a name and a photograph to endear themselves to the punters.
The issue is not about responsible drinking or drinking responsibly; it is about dealing with a problem that is getting out of hand both for society and the health and well-being of members of society. One has only to look at the awful images of young people in the street—I do not know why, but it is more offensive when females are involved—lying down and not knowing where they are or who they are. There is a tension between the people who want to make a living and—dare I say it?—effectively, people who want to live.
If people are offered two for the price of one, they find it difficult to resist the offer. A can of beer can be bought with 38p. A packet of M&M’s is 60p and if someone goes to Portcullis House, they can buy a banana for 40p. That is more expensive than a can of beer. The fact is that alcohol is a poison; it has an effect on the physiology of a body. For young people who see adverts of people enjoying themselves by drinking, it is very difficult to resist peer pressure. My niece is a doctor who has worked in A and E. She says that the majority of cases are a result of people who are drunk and who become very abusive. I suggest that any hon. Members who do not believe that that happens should visit their local A and E departments. Let us also consider other public servants, such as the police, who have to clear up the mess on Saturday evenings at a cost of £13 billion. Such problems affect my constituency, too.
The facts are simple. The medical profession believes that almost 250,000 lives can be saved over the next 20 years if strong action is taken. I have checked on the Department of Health’s website and it links drugs with alcohol and tobacco. It must therefore believe that alcohol is an issue. If it is an issue, the Department of Health must act; a do-nothing strategy does not work.
Sir Richard Doll made a link between lung cancer and smoking. It is only now that people believe that link. What about the link between alcohol consumption and other diseases? I can go through a list: alcoholic hepatitis, oral cavity cancer, hypertension, acute intoxication with loss of consciousness, psychiatric problems, suicidal ideation, depression, anxiety, loss of libido, fetal alcohol syndrome, impaired performance at work and relationship problems. The list goes on: violent crimes, domestic violence and antisocial behaviour. According to the website patient.co.uk, one in 16 hospital admissions are due to alcohol-related illness, with a cost to the NHS of £2.7 billion. In peak times in A and E, that accounts for 70% of admissions. The hon. Member for Totnes mentioned that England is number three in the top 10 drinking countries. Why can we not be the Eddie the Eagle of drinking countries?
Clearly, something has to be done. The hon. Lady should be supported in her attempts to introduce minimum pricing for alcohol. Other measures have been proposed by Alcohol Concern and a coalition of Churches, which have already written to the Prime Minister. There should be a change in licensing hours and pubs should shut at 10 pm again—people knew when they were supposed to go home. Gone is that clarion call of last orders; I urge the Minister to call last orders on binge drinking and to support the hon. Lady.
John Pugh (Southport) (LD)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) on securing this important debate. I should like to take a slightly different track and speak briefly about alcoholism. I am motivated to do so because a friend of mine died recently of alcoholism. I surveyed his circumstances and wondered what conceivably could have been done to prevent his early death—he died at a younger age than I am now.
I looked back at my friend’s history in some depth, trying to find out how it all started. It started, as it does for many people who take to drink, with other psychological problems: a lack of self-esteem, to some extent prompted by his family upbringing. It was accentuated by losing his job as a civil servant—he took early retirement—and then by the loss of his marriage due to the strain induced by alcoholism. I followed his whole history from that stage on. There were periods of abstinence, where he thought he had licked the problem. There were periods of very aberrant behaviour that sometimes involved the police, but often strange and gratuitous acts of mad generosity. There were periods of treatment when he went in for detox, somewhat ineffectively, and came out and resumed previous behaviour.
There was a period when my friend found that Librium worked in discouraging him from drinking, but he could not be given the amount he needed, so I made an arrangement with his doctor to provide him with the drug. For the first time in my life, I became a drug dealer. He could not receive it himself, simply because it was feared that he would take an overdose. Then there were periods of real sickness when he was losing weight rapidly. He was hospitalised frequently. He had blood transfusions and other forms of hospital treatment for a disease that I fundamentally believed to be, at root, of a mental rather than physical kind. Throughout it all, there were long periods of solitary drinking, punctuated by phone conversations to his friends. Those conversations were not always welcome; any drunken conversation tends to be very repetitive and goes nowhere. Ultimately, this was followed by a phone call saying that he had been found dead alone in his flat.
I reflected on this. I believe that, at root, the cause is psychological, but I had seen my friend struggling when applying for NHS services to get any psychological treatment, because most psychiatrists do not want to mess around with alcoholics. They regard them as a complete waste of time. In some cases, their criteria for treating people exclude alcoholics. I was a member of the Public Bill Committee that considered the Mental Health Act 2007, when it was expressly stated that people could not be sectioned for alcoholism—it was not regarded as the kind of disease that fell under that banner.
My friend phoned me on many occasions and pleaded with me to find some sort of mechanism so that he could be sectioned, because he knew that he could not stop himself drinking. Towards the end of the time when I was trying to help him, I found something that I thought might work. It was a treatment that other alcoholics I had known had benefited from. It was a process of very robust detoxification, followed by rehab, and was clearly producing results. It took place outside the primary care trust area in which he lived and was going to cost £10,000. However, I am sure that the total cost to the NHS of his treatment in all those years was much more than £10,000. I could not, in all honestly, believe that the PCT would respond very positively, given its other priorities, to a case that stated, “This man has had a lifetime’s history of alcoholism. Now, will you spend £10,000 in getting him out of this fix?”
I am concerned about what we do for alcoholics under the current regime. Having had to look into it, I found that a lot of them go through procedures that are, in a sense, futile—they do not actually take things a great deal further. They detox people and turn them around again, so they go back to the habits that they had before. Unless there is detox plus rehab, this is not a workable solution. This is a big problem for many families and communities, so it is surprising that so many organisations out there take so much money out of the NHS to so little effect. The NHS needs to drill down and support only those therapies that genuinely work. In the short term, they may be very expensive, but in the long term, they will repay the investment.
On the voluntary consumption of alcohol, there are a couple of factors that can precipitate people along the route that my friend followed: a cultural permissiveness about excessive drinking and a mishandling of how, culturally, we deal with alcohol. At root, that is our problem. Recent licensing law reforms have been an ineffectual attempt to change the culture into a French or continental system where we can manage our alcohol a little better. Certainly, one of the bedevilling features that impact on how society handles alcohol is its cheap and plentiful supply.
Frankly, I am agnostic—I am not sure whether my hon. Friend is right. Doctors are arguing very forcibly for minimum pricing, and I think that the Government are committed to banning below-cost pricing. Both are helpful, but probably neither are sufficient because in themselves neither will guarantee cultural change. As a former teacher, I am agnostic about what education can do. Asking 14-year-olds to forswear a life of alcoholic indulgence is not an easy task, particularly as most of them have not really engaged much in that direction.
We have to accept that alcohol consumption is always regulated in some form or other, but its long history shows that we do not always get it correct and that no system is flawless. We need to look at good practice and at what works—my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) has some good examples—and roll them out right across the piece. We do not have many good models to imitate in the control of either alcohol or alcoholism, but evidence-led policy is clearly the way forward.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) on securing the debate. For me and my constituents—as I suspect it is for many in the Chamber—this issue is probably the biggest problem in our area. I deal with related issues concerning community safety every day. I rise to give the perspective from Northern Ireland and to outline the critical and crucial programme that we have to ensure that issues caused by alcohol are addressed.
In Northern Ireland, on 1 March 2010, there were 5,846 individuals in treatment for drug and/or alcohol abuse—a very high number. More than 50% were in treatment for alcohol misuse, some 22% for drug misuse and a fifth of those for both. Approximately 75% were male, 27% female. Although it is predominantly a male problem, clearly a large proportion of females are involved. The hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) said that it is terrible to see young people drunk. It is always particularly upsetting to see young ladies and girls drunk and we certainly have to consider that. The last figures available show that the number of people receiving treatment increased by 5% in just one year, from 5,583 to 5,846—some 500 extra on that list, which again, unfortunately, is an upward-moving figure which we are concerned about.
There are some 1.5 million victims of alcohol-fuelled violence in the UK as a whole. Community safety is threatened by the misuse of alcohol. We have to deal with that. The police superintendents have outlined and advised that alcohol is present in half of all crimes. That worries me and I suspect that it worries all hon. Members here. It also shows that a high proportion of victims of violent crime are under the influence of alcohol at the time of the assault. So alcohol runs, almost like blood itself, through all the violence and the problems.
Some 37% of offenders had a current problem with alcohol use; 37% had a problem with binge drinking; 47% had misused alcohol in the past; and in 32% violent behaviour was related to their alcohol use. As other hon. Members have mentioned, drinking starts slowly with small indulgence and increases, with peer pressure involved, then there is binge drinking and then misuse of alcohol, with the violence that comes off the back of that.
I want to focus on young people, who need to learn at an early age to drink responsibly when they are of an age to do so at 18. In Northern Ireland, the average age for young people to have their first drink is 11. When I read that I said, “My goodness me, that’s shocking.” I am aware, as an elected representative, of people who started with one drink, perhaps when their marital relationship broke down, and drank whenever there was alcohol in the house and whenever there was peer pressure. I fought a case for a liver transplant for a young boy who started drinking at the age that I mentioned and at 17 or 18 he found himself a candidate for a liver transplant. If such facts do not shock people to their core, they should. It certainly shocks me.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
Throughout society there are different instances of alcohol misuse. In the armed forces, in the under-35 age group, alcohol misuse among men is more than double that in the normal population. Does the hon. Gentleman not think that that underscores the fact that a Government approach must recognise pressures in all different elements of society and the different phases at which interventions need to take place?
Jim Shannon
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I agree wholeheartedly and I think that all other hon. Members do. There are different levels. I was developing a point about young people, but there is a drink culture in the armed forces as well. Perhaps that is to do with the job that they do or the time that they spend together. Government has to address those issues.
Around a quarter of 11 to 16-year-olds in Northern Ireland drink regularly and around one in eight have been drunk more than 10 times. One third of 11 to 16-year-olds who have tried alcohol have bought it from a pub, off-licence or shop. There is an issue there for the police in enforcement and for local councils, where the power lies, to monitor and control what happens. There is also a strong link between starting to drink at a young age and problematic alcohol use in later life. A shocking statistic is that one in four young people claim to have been drunk 20 times in the span of a month. The number of 15 to 16-year-olds who binge-drink in Northern Ireland is one of the highest in Europe.
Alcohol use among young people is of particular concern, as they are more vulnerable than adults to suffering physical, emotional and social harm from their own and other people’s drinking. The hon. Member for Totnes mentioned what emerges as a result of that. Drinking leads to a high risk of unsafe sexual behaviour, traffic and other accidents, unintended pregnancies, failure at school and mental health problems, antisocial behaviour, vandalism and violence. This is a serious issue and is not a matter of kids being kids: it goes a lot deeper and the problems caused are a lot longer-lasting and have a great impact on our community as a whole. We have to take on the big issues.
I work in my constituency with many community and residents’ associations that are determined to stamp out abuse in their areas. There are many ways of doing that, including through education programmes for children. A group called the forum for action on substance abuse works hard with young people; it takes on the hard issues, gets the community and young people involved and ensures that a safer option is available for kids, other than standing at street corners being pressured into trying drink or drugs.
Community groups in my area are working hard to do what they can to end the vicious circle of alcoholism and drug use. Yet they cannot do it themselves; they need Government help and educational, health and police strategies as well. There needs to be a system in place that lends support and advice and co-ordinates events and information to ensure that people are informed.
A recent survey carried out by a church group in Newtownards in my constituency found that under-age drinking was a major issue that led to people feeling unsafe in their neighbourhood. The abuse of alcohol leads to side effects being felt by other people who are not involved, including not feeling safe. The fact is that problems arise when people are mixed with a large amount of alcohol. When young people, who have not yet had the time to develop their moral standards and ideals, are mixed with alcohol we get a generation fuelled by a desire to live in the moment without the thought of consequences.
Alcohol changes personalities. When young people are learning who they are, adding alcohol to the mix means that they will never have a good understanding of who they are. That is why it is essential that we put in place a way of combating under-age drinking by ensuring that drink is not available for people under 18.
When wearing my other hat as an Assembly Member, prior to coming to this House, we raised the age on buying cigarettes—that has been implemented—as it was recognised that upping the age limit would make it easier for retailers to demand identification. It is time that we enforced the same rigour and control with regard to alcohol. It is time for the Government strategy to take on board the involvement of councils and all the other bodies, which is important. We need to take on the issue of sales venues, including off-licences and pubs. We must increase police activity and police the councils in their monitoring pubs and off-licences.
We also have to say something about parental control that perhaps has not been said yet: it is neglected many times. Parents do not exercise the control that they should, but they need to do so.
I support increasing the price of alcohol. It is important that we do that. I do not see anything wrong with that. We must ensure that drink promotions do not encourage binge drinking.
Eric Joyce (Falkirk) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman has made a great deal of sense up till now, particularly when mentioning education, but does he not think that minimum pricing is simply aimed at the least well-off? It is all very well for those who are not affected by it, but essentially that policy is aimed at the least well-off, who may continue to spend the same amount on alcohol, or more, because it will be more expensive for them, and spend less elsewhere.
Jim Shannon
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but we will have to agree to differ. It is important that we increase the price of alcohol, because doing so takes away the ability to binge-drink from those who are clearly involved in it.
Jim Shannon
Let me just get this important point on the record. We have to address all the issues. There are different ways of doing so and one is to increase the price of alcohol.
Jim Shannon
I thank the hon. Lady for her wise words. That is exactly what we feel is important. We have to take on hard issues and address them early. We need a strategy that reflects an in-built protection for children and adults alike.
I urge that the points of view advanced by the hon. Member for Totnes and other hon. Members be considered and that we adopt a strategy that addresses the issues that plague society today.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton.
As a libertarian and a believer in individual freedoms, I had hoped that the country had escaped from the nanny-state health police with the end of the previous Labour Government but, sadly, I was clearly naive in that thought. A great many people in the House seem to want to do nothing else but ban everyone else from doing all the things that they do not happen to like themselves, and I was certainly not brought into politics to do that. I urge the Minister not to be seduced by the reasonableness of my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), because I assure her that, were she to implement everything that my hon. Friend asked for today, my hon. Friend and the health zealots would still return with another list of things that they want the Minister to do. Such people will never be appeased or satisfied until alcohol has been banned altogether.
I want to focus on two points—the futile proposal on minimum pricing, and advertising and marketing. The very principle of minimum pricing goes against all my Conservative instincts and beliefs—the free market and freedom of choice. The process of setting a minimum price is predicated on the assumption that raising the price of alcohol will make those who misuse alcohol behave differently. However, that is an incredibly simplistic belief. It is worrying that people in the Chamber think that, by increasing the price of a bottle of wine by 30p or 40p, or of a can of beer by 40p, all the problems associated with drinking would at a stroke disappear. People who think that minimum pricing will stop young people going into town centres on Friday and Saturday nights with the intention of getting bladdered, or whatever the current term is, are living in cloud cuckoo land.
Philip Davies
I will not give way, because plenty of other people want to speak and time is pressing. I will happily debate with the hon. Gentleman in the Tea Room or at some other point, although I am the only one arguing from this perspective, I suspect.
The Centre for Economics and Business Research conducted research on minimum pricing and concluded that the heaviest drinkers are the least responsive to higher prices. For example, at a minimum unit price of 40p, the CEBR found that harmful drinkers, which the policy is supposed to be targeting, would reduce their weekly consumption by only 1.7 units per week, which at the end of the day is less than one pint of weak beer. A report by Sheffield university found that a minimum price of 45p per unit would trigger a 6% fall in overall alcohol consumption and 60 fewer deaths in the first year alone. Yet the Government figures for 2009-10 show that overall alcohol consumption fell by 7%, while alcohol-related deaths rose by 36. Clearly, there is no link between the two.
Minimum pricing treats all drinkers the same, and penalises—financially and practically—the overwhelming majority of adults, all those people who drink alcohol responsibly and in a socially acceptable way, causing harm neither to themselves nor to others. The people who would be most penalised by minimum pricing are those who are already on tight budgets, such as pensioners, people on fixed incomes or those in low-paid jobs. I simply cannot understand how hon. Members, in a time of economic austerity, are prepared to force some of their poorest constituents to pay more for alcohol, when they know full well that the overwhelming majority of those constituents drink alcohol responsibly and in moderation. If hon. Members want to tackle binge drinking and alcoholism, they should focus their efforts on binge drinkers and alcoholics, not on everyone in the country, which would be unjustifiable.
The Institute for Fiscal Studies produced a report on minimum pricing that found that poorer households, compared with richer households, on average pay less for a unit of off-sale alcohol. For example, households with an income of less than £10,000 a year pay 39.8p per unit, while those on a household income of more than £70,000 pay 49.3p per unit on average. As a result, a minimum price of 40p or 45p per unit would have a larger impact on poorer households and virtually no impact on richer ones.
Dr Wollaston
Does my hon. Friend accept that our poorest constituents are paying the price for harmful drinking and that we should consider the effect of alcohol on health inequalities? Furthermore, the Sheffield study showed that minimum pricing at 50p per unit would only add an extra £12 a year to the cost for moderate drinkers.
Philip Davies
I do not accept that for two reasons. First, people should be free to spend their own money as they so wish, without having to obtain the permission of my hon. Friend before they decide how to live their life, in particular if no one else is affected; it is their responsibility. Secondly, the one thing that I have learned about alcoholism is that alcoholics will go to any lengths to get the alcohol they need; if we increase the price of alcohol, all that will happen is that they will give over a bigger proportion of their money to buying alcohol, leaving them less money to spend on other things—it will not change their behaviour at all.
I want to touch on advertising, but not for long. I opposed the ten-minute rule Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes on advertising. I used to work in marketing, for my sins, and I want to stress its purpose: it is about brand awareness and increased market share. When Cadbury sponsored “Coronation Street”, does anyone really believe that at the moment the Cadbury advert appeared at the start of the programme everyone leapt off their seat, switched off the TV set and dashed to the nearest newsagent to buy a bar of Dairy Milk? Of course not. All that Cadbury hoped was that, next time people went into the newsagent, they would buy a bar of Cadbury’s Dairy Milk rather than a Kit Kat. That is the whole point of marketing.
If we curb alcohol advertising, more than £80 million of revenue for the broadcasting industry would be jeopardised, leading to a direct loss in programme making in this country. It would also wreak havoc on sporting events, and I expect that the Department of Health would prefer to encourage as much sporting activity as possible. We already have a robust system of advertising regulation in this country, administered by the Advertising Standards Authority and in this case the Portman Group, endorsed by Ofcom. We hear that so many young people are made aware of alcohol by advertising, but lots of young children know about car advertising and yet it does not mean that they go straight out and start driving a car, merely because they are aware of the advertising.
I worry where this will stop. Will my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes return to the House in a few months’ time and urge us to ban the advertising of cream cakes, pizzas, chocolate, fish and chips or curry, because they are all bad for us if eaten to excess? This is a slippery slope, and certainly not one that I am prepared to support.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) on securing this important debate, and I pay tribute to her for tenacious campaigning on the subject. I am also pleased to follow the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), because our views are about as divergent as they possibly could be, so there is an opportunity for some balance.
I want to talk about minimum pricing, because the sale of alcoholic drinks at pocket-money prices is costing not only the economy anything between £20 billion and £25 billion a year, if we look at the total costs, but many thousands of people’s lives. This is a fundamental public health issue: people are getting avoidable diseases and dying early. As others have said, those of us who are on the side of supporting minimum pricing do not want to stop people having fun and enjoying a drink; we want a strategy in place to ensure that as far as possible people drink as safely as possible.
The bottom line is that alcohol currently presents us with a massive public health problem in this country. With the British Medical Association, the Royal College of Physicians and the Royal College of Nursing, I believe that we need to act on minimum pricing. The hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh) was right to say that it is not a panacea and, on its own, minimum pricing will certainly not solve the problem, but it is an important tool in our armoury, so we should use it.
As mentioned already, the Government’s policy so far is that, instead of supporting minimum pricing, they will bar the selling of alcohol below the rate of duty and VAT. I welcome that as a step forward, with Ministers acknowledging price as a factor in how much people drink, but the policy does not go far enough, as evidenced by the drinks industry calling the approach “pragmatic”—in other words, the industry is not bothered by it. Health campaigners point out that one of the reasons why the industry is so relaxed is because the price floor is probably too low to have a real impact. That was supported by evidence from an investigation by The Guardian newspaper last year, which showed that of 4,000 price promotions, just one would be affected by the Government’s policy to bar selling alcohol at below the rate of duty and VAT. I am interested to hear the Minister’s response to that research. If the Government fail to act on the evidence, and if they refuse to stand up to the drinks industry, I fear that their alcohol strategy simply will not work. Resources and good intentions will be wasted because a successful strategy must be underpinned by measures to address the easy availability of alcohol.
Local communities are, rightly, worried and want action. For example, in Brighton and Hove, we have been trying to address the £100 million annual bill facing the city from the impact of over-consumption of alcohol. In October last year, the city started what it called “the big alcohol debate”, which closed last month. Its purpose was to hear what the residents of Brighton and Hove had to say about alcohol in the city. It is deeply worrying that 40% of the 1,300-plus respondents said that they avoid parts of the city because of the way in which drunken people behave. A clear message came through from Brighton’s debate that people are concerned about the too-easy availability of alcohol, and the effects of drunken behaviour in the city.
I am proud of the clear and radical action that city councillors have recently taken on licensing with an expanded cumulative impact area that allows councillors to take into account the impact of other licensed premises in the area when considering new applications. Councillors in the city are doing all they can to work closely with the police, the NHS and many other agencies that must pick up the pieces resulting from the lack of a clear alcohol strategy. The point of the debate is that there is only so much that can be done at local level without a clear lead from the Government on the key issues, which include minimum pricing. Price can and does regulate people’s consumption patterns, which seems to me why so much of the drinks industry is so worried about it.
By way of illustration, I shall say a few words about the continued sale of white cider. The issue concerns me greatly, and has been raised in Brighton and Hove as a significant problem connected with the level of street drinking and drunkenness in the city. It makes the case that minimum pricing has an important part to play. White cider is often sold at a cheaper price than bottled water. It is consumed for no other reason than instant intoxication for homeless and dependent street drinkers, as well as young at-risk drinkers. The charities that work with street drinkers report that white cider has a particularly damaging effect on the health and behaviour of the people consuming it. The harm it causes should help to convince the Government that minimum pricing is part of the answer.
I have contacted the supermarkets that continue to sell the product, albeit on their bottom shelves where they know that those who are ill enough and desperate enough to need it will be able to find it. I am encouraged that in response, those supermarkets have agreed to meet me to discuss the issue. However, whatever the outcome of that meeting, white cider will still be bought by many small retailers from cash and carry outlets.
Bigger retailers can and should take a lead, and stop selling this dangerous and damaging substance, but we need action from the Government if we are to eradicate it from our streets and from the lives of vulnerable drinkers. I shall illustrate what a difference a minimum price would make to the cost of white cider. Currently 2-litre bottles of Diamond White cider, consisting of 7.5% alcohol by volume, cost around £3.50 for around 15 units of alcohol. At a minimum price of 50p, the cost would be £7.50, and at 45p it would be £6.75. The point that a minimum price would not unduly penalise people who drink more moderately is underscored by the fact that an average bottle of wine—750 ml at 12%—would cost £4.50 with a 50p minimum price, or £4.05 if it were 45p.
Eric Joyce
The hon. Lady has switched from white cider to wine, the implication being that people who drink moderately drink wine. In fact, she is arguing that less well-off people should pay more and middle-class people should pay the same. That identifies that the problem is only with less well-off people.
Caroline Lucas
I reject what the hon. Gentleman says, because I am showing that price will have a big effect on people who consume vast amounts of alcohol, but not for most people who consume it more moderately. I could have given the same figures for cider. Clearly it will not put off moderate drinkers. The big red herring in this debate is that if the price of alcohol is increased, life will suddenly become enormously difficult for moderate drinkers. As the hon. Member for Totnes has said, with a 50p per unit minimum price a harmful drinker would spend an average of £163 a year extra if they continued with the habit, but a moderate drinker would spend an extra £12 a year. I do not want to inflict an extra £12 a year on anyone, but when that is set against the overall cost of alcohol misuse to society, it is far outweighed by an extra £12 for people who continue with their moderate drinking behaviour.
I am aware that Ministers are raising concerns that a minimum price per unit might contravene European competition laws and would be challenged in the courts. My understanding is that the European Commission has indicated that minimum pricing does indeed have the potential to target heavy drinkers. If minimum pricing is to satisfy the law, it must be shown that it is in proportion to the problems caused by alcohol without unduly affecting competition. There is a strong case for saying that action on pricing is proportionate to the problems caused, not least the chronic disease that we have heard about, thousands of deaths, and an estimated cost to the economy of between £20 billion and £25 billion.
In 2009, before the Scottish Government proposed introducing a minimum price policy, a written question on whether minimum alcohol retail prices violated EC law was answered by the European Commission. It clearly set out that treaty rules on the free movement of goods would not be contravened as long as price rules applied to all relevant traders operating within the national territory, and if they affected in the same manner in law and in fact the marketing of domestic and imported products. No one is suggesting that we treat imported and domestic products differently. We could make a strong case, if the political will were there to do so, for saying that such a response is proportionate.
[Katy Clark in the Chair]
A more recent ruling from the Commission in 2010 was even clearer. In answer to a question, the Commissioner for Health said that
“the Commission fully shares…the conviction that there are strong public health reasons for the EU to tackle alcohol-related harm including minimum pricing measures.”
We must lay to rest the ghost that suggests that the EU is saying that we cannot do this. It is saying that we can do it with certain conditions. Our role is to show that those conditions are met, and with all the evidence that has been cited here today and in many other places, we can make that case clearly. In this instance, the EU is saying not that we cannot act, but that we must be proportionate.
I hope that the Minister will accept that and that we need to make the political case for pursuing this measure. The Commission is telling us that if we do that, it is open to supporting that way forward. Let us have the debate on the issues, not on bugbears and myths about what the EU will or will not allow.
Katy Clark (in the Chair)
Order. The winding-up speeches will start at 12.10 pm.
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). Like other hon. Members, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) on securing a debate that she has revisited time and again since coming to the House.
As a relatively new MP, I was reflecting on the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) is a bit like a bellwether. When he is the first to rush to defend the Government’s policy, one knows that the policy is wrong. This morning, many hon. Members have asked where the evidence is that leads us to consider the need to introduce minimum pricing. In 2008, the university of Sheffield conducted a Government-funded study, which found that setting a minimum price of 50p a unit for alcohol could result in 3,000 fewer deaths a year. In 2009, the chief medical officer in England supported that view. In 2010, the Select Committee on Health and the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence also backed a minimum price. Also in 2010, that policy found its way into the coalition agreement, which states:
“We will ban the sale of alcohol below cost price. We will review alcohol taxation and pricing to ensure it tackles binge drinking without unfairly penalising responsible drinkers, pubs and important local industries.”
That is exactly the point that other hon. Members have made. The opposition to minimum pricing is setting up a straw man in saying that it would penalise moderate drinkers. In fact, as other hon. Members have said, the study by Alcohol Concern suggests that with a 50p minimum price, moderate drinkers would be only £12 worse off a year, whereas the cost to the harmful drinkers—those who cost our economy through lost productivity, revenue lost to the health service, and tragic deaths such as that identified by my hon. Friend the Member for Southport (John Pugh)—would be £163 a year.
John Pugh
I hate to stand up for the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), but the relationship between price and consumption is a lot more subtle than hon. Members have indicated. Recently, at least until a couple of years ago, the price of alcohol was going down, and levels of consumption have also reduced throughout the country.
Stephen Gilbert
My hon. Friend makes a valid point, but the issue concerns consumption among problem drinkers and those vulnerable people about whom we in the House must be especially concerned. In many cases, people suffering from addiction are not able to articulate the best course of action for themselves.
Stephen Gilbert
I will not give way as I want to move on swiftly and look at some of the false arguments that are used to prevent a move towards minimum pricing, including the suggestion that such pricing may fall foul of European competition law. Belgium, Luxembourg and Poland have laws on commercial practices and consumer protection that ban below-cost sales. Some Spanish provinces have banned alcohol promotions that directly incite excessive alcohol consumption, and national legislation in Sweden stipulates that the price of alcohol cannot be lower than the cost price plus a reasonable addition, which the Swedish National Institute of Public Health recommends should be 25% or more of cost price.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Southport said, examples of good practice show how we can tackle alcohol-related disorder in our communities. The Newquay Safe Partnership has worked effectively to try and reduce the cost of such disorder by introducing Challenge 25 and ensuring that people are able to spot fake ID, by education outreach in the local schools, and by the creation of a confidential number to report instances of proxy buying when an adult purchases alcohol for children. A “follow home” scheme means that a case of antisocial behaviour by a visitor to Newquay will follow that person home to be dealt with by their local police force. Newquay Safe Partnership has reduced the cost of crime in Newquay by about £250,000 a year. Incidents of violence have reduced by 7%, and those of nuisance behaviour by 22%. I will happily provide hon. Members with other examples at a later point.
Two points should be added to our alcohol strategy. First, we need a licensing requirement for toughened glass in pubs and clubs. A discarded bottle or pint glass is a fairly dangerous weapon, as my constituent Jack Nutting knows. Toughened glass can be used for pint glasses, and plastic bottles can be used instead of glass bottles. Newquay is already moving forward on that licensing requirement, and the rest of the country could learn from that. Secondly, as I said yesterday in questions to the Home Department, there is no specific offence of urinating in the street, and at the moment police use get-around powers, most amusingly that of littering. When considering the consequences of alcohol in their totality, that issue also needs to be reviewed.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
Given the shortage of time, and in order to give other Members the opportunity to contribute, I will restrict my remarks to one of the topics on which I wished to speak. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) on securing this timely debate. She has made the case well for the need to address excessive drinking, particularly among the young. I want to draw attention to the important role that parents play in teaching their children how to drink responsibly.
I wish to highlight recent research produced by the think-tank Demos. A few days ago, I was privileged to host a meeting at which it launched a report on alcohol and parenting. The report compared parenting styles, and found—perhaps unsurprisingly to some—that parents who are actively involved in their children’s lives and know where they are, what they are doing and who they are with, and who get involved in their children’s leisure activities and know their friends and even their friends’ families, and who offer love and affection as well as setting clear boundaries, will materially decrease the likelihood that their children will binge-drink at age 16. According to the report, parents who bring up their children in a disengaged way with low levels of the sorts of attachment that I have described, run the risk that their youngsters will be eight times more likely to engage in binge drinking at age 16.
Even more surprising was the effect that parenting styles have into adulthood. The research found that children bought up in an environment with high levels of attachment were far less likely to engage in excessive drinking at the age of 34, which shows that good parenting has a lasting effect on us as adults. I was encouraged by that report, and it reassured me that all those hours that I have spent freezing on the touchline at football matches across Cheshire may have a greater impact than that of simply cheering on my son’s football teams.
Although the Demos report did not recommend that the Government make grand changes in the way they educate parents about bringing up their children, I would like to comment on that subject. The research highlights the fact that active parenting is a key aspect of personal responsibility, and it is good to be reminded of that with reference to excessive drinking. Ideally, appropriate levels of personal responsibility in relation to that issue would substantially reduce—indeed, negate—the need for greater Government intervention.
As part of their alcohol strategy, I suggest that the Government think laterally and consider seriously the positive contribution that parenting classes or education could make, particularly in terms of prevention rather than cure. The Government are currently trialling parenting classes in three parts of the country, but such things are rare. Over time, the broader availability of such classes could reap substantial benefits in the lives of many—that is particularly true in an age when many young people who may become parents have not experienced ideal parental role models in their own lives.
In conclusion, we cannot resolve every problem of excessive drinking in our country, but we should not act only at personal, community or national levels. We need to do something at all those levels, because doing nothing is not an option.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) on securing this timely debate. It is similar to the debate that I secured in May 2007, just before the publication of the then Government’s alcohol harm reduction strategy. In 2007 I was pessimistic about the direction in which the situation with alcohol was headed, but in 2012 I am optimistic. In 2007 the strategy was too limited and failed to tackle the need to reduce overall consumption and the harm caused by alcohol, as well as to be more ambitious about recovery from addiction.
Without going into too much detail, I would like to raise the issue of pricing, which, quite properly, has already been mentioned. In 2007, I was part of the Centre for Social Justice which recognised—perhaps going against its more traditional instincts of not wanting to bang the drum for taxation—that price has a particular impact on dependent drinkers and young people, which are the groups we wish to tackle when we see such enormous carnage in our communities. I am pleased that the Government are considering seriously the case for minimum pricing, and we await the outcome of those deliberations.
My experience comes not from being a politician, but from being a criminal defence solicitor. Sadly, my filing cabinet is full of notes about lives that have been damaged, or indeed lost, because of alcohol. Many of those cases involve not just one person, but a grandparent, a father and a son—the intergenerational cycle of alcohol misuse, which includes the impact of crime.
Last year in Hertford magistrates court I came across one individual—let us call him Lee—who was an alcoholic. He was aged 16, had just come out of a young offenders institution, and told me that he had been an alcoholic for three years. I asked him about his family and school background, and he said that everyone had given up on him. Indeed, when he left the young offenders institution, he stopped seeking any effective treatment because the only statutorily provided adolescent rehabilitation centre closed down last year. I asked him about school, and he said that he was known there as “Wasted.” That was how he was known, and that was how he felt. Sadly, such wasted lives litter our community, and the impact on children and young people is severe.
Some 9 million children are affected by a family member who has a problem with the misuse of alcohol. That is a massive figure, and children of parents who are problematic drug or alcohol users are themselves seven times more likely to develop a substance misuse problem.
We need to move away from the way in which we have historically dealt with alcohol treatment, focusing on the individual, to a whole-family-centred approach in order to tackle this intergenerational drug misuse. We need to ensure, as the Government are committed to ensuring, that it is not a Cinderella service—that people do not just come to the ball now and again when they show that they have a problem—but that the approach is systemic and integrated. That is what the drug strategy and the alcohol strategy show—that we are seeking to tackle drug and alcohol misuse and be much more ambitious about recovery.
We need to ensure that we recognise the evidential basis of alcohol treatment. We know from the UK alcohol treatment trials that every pound invested in treatment saves £5 in reduced health care costs, social care costs and criminal justice costs. Taking such action will ensure that the current Government are known not just for economic recovery, but for social recovery. Tackling alcohol misuse is one way to achieve that. I know that the Government are up for it. I am sure that we shall hear shortly that my hon. Friend the Minister is up for it as well.
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)
It is always a pleasure to speak under your distinguished chairmanship, Miss Clark. Like many other hon. Members, I congratulate the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) on securing the debate, which is part of her campaigning work on what has almost come to be seen as her signature issue. It is a very important issue for us all.
I often speak in the House about things of particular relevance to inner-city communities such as mine, but no community is not touched by the scourge of alcohol abuse. That is true whether we are talking about the town centre or the accident and emergency department or even behind closed doors. This scourge is relevant to all of us as Members and is a proper subject for debate.
We have heard many very informed speeches. I shall touch on just three issues. I want to put the alcohol abuse problem in this country in an international context. I do not think that it is sufficiently understood how badly we are doing relative to other European countries. I want to touch particularly on what is happening to young people, because what is happening to them is particularly important. Finally, I shall talk about what would make up an effective alcohol strategy.
It is not sufficiently understood that whereas alcohol misuse is trending quite sharply up in this country, as hon. Members have said, in Europe it is trending down. The picture in this country is much bleaker than that in countries such as France, Italy and Spain. France, Italy and Spain historically had very high levels of alcohol consumption in the 1950s. However, since the 1980s, alcohol consumption in France, Germany and Italy has been reduced by between 30% and 50%. At the same time, it has gone upwards in the UK.
We have heard about the numbers of deaths related to alcohol abuse and the panoply of social ills and social disorder caused by alcohol abuse. Why is alcohol abuse as a problem trending upwards in the UK but going downwards in other European countries? That is because—I say this with all due respect to the free-marketeers on the other side of the Chamber—Governments have taken action. If we look at a graph of alcohol abuse, we see the line for European countries going down and being intercepted by a line that relates to UK alcohol abuse, which is going upwards. How can the sixth-richest country in the world be unable to take comprehensive action against this scourge? I would hate to think that that was because politicians and Governments listened too much to the drinks industry and not enough to the cries of people suffering from alcohol abuse, whether they are in our town centres or in A and E or the alcohol abuse is taking place behind closed doors.
I want to say a little about why this is a particular issue for young people. As we have heard, among young people aged 18 to 29, alcohol is a bigger killer than any other disease. They are being killed either by the use of alcohol itself or in alcohol-fuelled incidents. Government Members are laughing, but they would think it a serious matter if they were the parent of a young person who had died in that type of incident. I have had occasion to meet parents of children who have died either through alcohol abuse or in incidents fuelled by alcohol. They do not laugh; they think that it is tragic and they want the Government to do more.
It is a fact that the alcohol industry has, in recent years, specifically targeted younger audiences. What are alcopops about other than encouraging young people who might be put off by the taste of alcohol to begin drinking alcohol with drinks that more naturally resemble soft drinks and sweetened fruit juice? It is a fact that in the 1990s the industry consciously increased its advertising budget. It went from £150 million to £250 million and, as I said, at the same time the number of schoolchildren drinking alcohol doubled. Targeting young people is a very serious matter, because we know that heavy drinking in adolescence leads to greater addiction levels and dependency in later life. We have heard more than once in the debate that levels of drinking in this country have levelled off, but levels of drinking among young people continue to spiral upwards. It is that vulnerability and the onward costs of adolescent heavy drinking that it is important to target.
We have heard many important facts about the results of alcohol abuse in this country, so what action should be taken? No one believes that pricing alone is a magic bullet. No one puts that forward—not the British Medical Association and not the alcohol campaigning organisations. However, there is no question but that an effective strategy against alcohol abuse must have pricing as part of the package.
Last year, I visited Newcastle at the invitation of the leader of the Labour council, Nick Forbes, and I chaired a round table discussion on alcohol and tobacco, at which I heard about the impact of alcohol abuse in the north-east. I also heard about the work that Balance North East is doing on alcohol abuse. I heard that alcohol is sold for as little as 12p per unit in the north-east and that the NHS spends a very large amount of money dealing with alcohol harm.
The problem is that, in the midst of the reorganisation that is taking place, innovative programmes such as Balance North East are at risk because they are funded jointly by several local primary care trusts. I would be interested in what the Minister has to say on how regional programmes such as Balance North East, fighting alcohol harm, may be able to continue operating under the new commissioning arrangements that she proposes in the Health and Social Care Bill. How does she, under the new organisational arrangements, intend to see alcohol services improve? How does she intend to make them a public health priority? Does she intend to consider the specific recommendations made by the British Society of Gastroenterology? Those recommendations include the establishment of multidisciplinary alcohol care teams in hospitals linked to the community; alcohol specialist nurse services; co-ordinated policies of care in A and E and acute medicine units, including alcohol specialist nurses, liaison psychiatry and alcohol link workers’ networks; outreach alcohol services; and integrated alcohol treatment pathways.
As I have said, there is a real issue about alcohol and young people. I think it was the hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh) who said that he did not think that education had much of a role to play. One way in which we can learn is by looking at successful public health campaigns of the past. There is no question but that, along with Government action, education in schools has a lot to do with the fact that levels of smoking among young people are dropping. That was not an immediate answer, but we do know that education played an important part in relation to tobacco abuse, and I believe that education can play an important part in relation to alcohol abuse.
In the debate hon. Members have queried whether there is any evidence that price plays a role. I refer hon. Members to something that was referred to earlier—a study undertaken over 20 years in British Columbia, Canada. That showed that a 10% increase in the minimum price of a given alcoholic beverage leads to a 16.1% decrease in consumption relative to other drinks. As I said, that was a 20-year survey. No hon. Member has brought evidence that will counter that.
We have heard about the social ills and the health problems caused by alcohol abuse. We know, because of our experience with tobacco, that these are not trends that we can stand, King Canute-like, and watch rising. There are things that Government and communities can do. Having waited so long for the Government’s alcohol strategy, I await with interest the Minister’s comments about the action that the Government plan to take and how it will fit with the changes in the organisation of the health service.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anne Milton)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Miss Clark. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) on securing the debate. As a GP, she has experienced at first hand the devastation alcohol can cause, and we all agree with her that excessive drinking affects our communities, ruins lives and all too often ends them.
The debate is very timely, because it marks the start of a big push by the Government to get information to people about the harm that alcohol can cause. We have the Change4Life adverts, which some Members may have seen, and 2 millions leaflets are being distributed. I can also recommend to hon. Members an online calculator that will help people to start understanding how many units they actually drink. Awareness of the harms of smoking is high among members of the public, and most people these days understand that being overweight is a problem and that they should probably exercise more, but the harm alcohol can cause is less well understood.
The constructive tension in the Chamber has been quite useful, and it is interesting that it is cross-party. Often on such occasions, the reporting of the evidence is somewhat selective, but one difficulty with the question why we drink so much and why drinking is a particular problem for northern Europeans is that it is complicated and the picture is complex. Some 57% of people drink fewer than three times a week, and a further 15% report abstaining from drink completely. However, 22% of adults drink more than the lower-risk guidelines, drinking 70% of all the alcohol consumed, which means that just under a quarter of people drink almost three quarters of the alcohol consumed.
As those figures suggest, the majority of people who drink do so in an entirely responsible way, but we cannot ignore those for whom drinking is a problem and those who cause others misery as a result of alcohol-fuelled crime and disorder. The ripple effect on families is, of course, also significant.
Some 21% of men and 15% of women are binge drinkers. Some 44% of violent crimes—almost 1 million crimes—are carried out by individuals under the influence of alcohol. Alcohol-related crime and disorder are estimated to cost our economy between £8 billion and £13 billion a year. There are also 1.1 million admissions to hospital as a result of alcohol-related crime, making alcohol the third biggest burden in terms of disease after smoking and obesity.
A problem that size needs a proper long-term solution. That is why we are developing a cross-Government alcohol strategy that will set out how different Departments can work together to reduce the harm alcohol can do to people’s health, as well as to society and our local communities, which are often blighted by alcohol-fuelled crime. The strategy will be published in the coming weeks, and I know the hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) is desperate to see it. It will be here soon, and it will highlight the importance of collective work, setting out the courses of action for all the relevant Departments across Whitehall, as well as describing the future roles of central and local government, the third sector, and other organisations and people.
This issue affects us all. It affects people in different ways at different times of their lives. As has been stated, there is no one silver bullet that will turn these things round. As my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes and the hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh) made clear, we need to address this issue from lots of different directions. By taking a life-course approach, we can help young families and children to understand how much alcohol can affect them, putting them at risk of violent crime, exposing them to sexual dangers and having consequences for later life. We can help working-age adults to understand the seriousness of long-term drinking at levels above the guidelines, and we can help older people to understand how much such drinking can reduce their quality of life in old age.
My hon. Friend and the hon. Gentleman highlighted the lack of services for people dependent on alcohol, and we are running co-design pilots to address that. My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) is working closely with me on that. As he said, we have a big ambition: we believe that people can recover from their addictions.
Home Office Ministers have legislated in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011 to overhaul the Licensing Act 2003 and rebalance it in favour of local communities. Those new measures will give the police and licensing authorities the capabilities to tackle irresponsible premises and to crack down on unacceptable sales of alcohol to children. Those measures will come into force this year.
On top of that—very importantly, sending a critical message—designated responsible authorities under the 2003 Act will be, in the first instance, primary care trusts, so that they can make a fuller contribution to reducing acute harm from alcohol. We are keen for health organisations to play a much bigger part in the licensing decisions made by local authorities.
On tax, we have said that we will raise alcohol duty by 2% above inflation—the retail prices index—each year to 2014-15. We have introduced a new extra duty on high-strength beers to discourage people from drinking cheap, super-strength lagers. Likewise, there is now a reduced rate of duty on lower-alcohol beers to encourage people to switch. My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes talked about putting quality above quantity; that is something we are aiming for, and the industry is responding well.
Pricing will continue to be an issue. There are some misconceptions about the use of the phrase “minimum unit price”, although hon. Members have probably used it accurately today and described well what they meant. The fact is that shops sell alcohol at a loss to get customers through the door, and that can encourage binge drinking. That is why we are committed to banning the sale of alcohol below cost, and that is an important first step. There are many different ways to achieve that aim, and we will continue to review all the evidence. The alcohol strategy will outline what steps we are taking to tackle the issue. Interestingly, 65% of alcohol was bought in pubs a few years ago, but 65% is now bought in supermarkets.
I want to re-emphasise to my hon. Friend that the drinks industry does not dictate policy. If I do nothing else today, I want to dispel the myth that it is dictating policy to me or any of my colleagues in the Department. Through the responsibility deal, we are challenging the industry to take action. That can happen quickly, it does not need legislation and if we can make some progress, that will be a start. Some 119 different companies have signed up to collective responsibility deal pledges on alcohol, including on improving labelling to get information out to people and to ensure that 80% of alcohol products have unit and health information by the end of 2013. As a result of the deal, people will see information on the number of units in different drinks, whether they are buying from shops or in pubs and bars. We are also working with industry and non-governmental organisations to remove a significant number of units of alcohol from the UK market through changes in how alcohol is produced and sold. Customers can therefore expect a much wider choice—again, this is about targeting quality, rather than quantity.
There is no doubt that we need people to take more responsibility, but this is also about local communities, businesses and individuals, whether they are parents, people whose drinking is affecting others or those who are risking their own health. We all need to play a part in helping people to understand the risks better. Local authorities have welcomed our plans to transfer powers for public health to them. They will be well placed to decide which organisations to fund and how they can take action locally.
I want to take this opportunity to praise some of the work that is already being done in many areas. Street pastors have been mentioned—in my patch, they are called street angels—and there are also the local authorities. In my constituency, Guildford borough council has introduced byelaws and it is working closely with the licensed trade. Unfortunately, preloading means that the licensed trade gets an unfair reputation at times. People often go into pubs, clubs and bars having consumed considerable amounts of alcohol, and the licensed trade is left to deal with the problem. Areas such as mine are dealing well with the issue, and people have worked well with the council. As a result, we are seeing a difference on the streets; in fact, if Members walk around some of our towns where progress has been made, the difference is noticeable.
There needs to be action across the board from everyone, and our alcohol strategy will demonstrate that. That action must be based on evidence. I thank my hon. Friend once again for the debate. I must reiterate that we cannot, sadly, turn this problem around overnight, but we are deadly serious about this deadly problem, and that will be demonstrated in the forthcoming alcohol strategy.
Wirral Borough Council
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to open this debate under your chairmanship, Miss Clark. I want to give an apology for my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern), who has just given birth to a lovely baby girl and obviously cannot be here today. However, she was very much part of a meeting two Saturdays ago, when Members saw the chief executive of Wirral borough council, and is committed to the conversation that we want to have with the Minister today and the strategy we want to lay out. I thank the Minister for finding time for yet another debate, but we want to draw on his considerable experience on how to move forward.
There has recently been a great deal of local coverage about the politics of our authority, but today’s debate examines the more fundamental matter of the administration of the authority. I believe that, although it does not have the razzmatazz that attaches to going on about politicians, it is much more important for the long-term well-being of residents. I shall in essence concentrate on governance in the local authority, which covers the Wirral peninsula, and cite examples of senior officers wilfully excluding councillors from the decisions that they have taken and the lack of good basic governance, which has surprised me. Indeed, if I were the leader of Wirral borough council—heaven forbid that that task should ever be allotted to me—I would assume that certain basic rules and governance would be in place. I have been shocked at their absence.
I shall give two examples of that failure. I have recently been involved in a whistleblowing case over Wirral’s biggest contract—in money terms—for the maintenance of the road system. At the meeting with the whistleblowers and the senior officers in Wirral, I was amazed that the council did not know the date when the whistle was first blown on what was happening. We were in the bizarre situation of the chief officers having to ask whistleblowers when they made their first complaint. It was reminiscent of Pasternak’s wonderful book “Dr Zhivago”, when the Bolsheviks were furious not at the suggestion that they killed Lara, which they willingly admitted, but at the accusation that they were inefficient and did not know where they had killed her. There is an element of that in Wirral’s not knowing the most basic information that it could be expected to know, particularly in the matter of whistleblowing.
We discovered, also at the very first meeting with the whistleblowers and senior officers, that there were no rules in place—although I thought that they were automatic for all local authorities—setting out when officers, particularly senior officers, must declare an interest in any contract that they were recommending to the council. In the case of the Colas contract, the interest was declared retrospectively, but at no point in the later stages of the council proceedings did the chief officer draw the councillors’ attention to the fact that he had made a late submission of interest and that they might want to bear that in mind when reading the papers before them.
I also want to speak about three major initiatives that the council could have taken, for which the Government were putting up taxpayers’ money. By the crass inefficiency of the chief officers, nothing happened. The first initiative related to a contract to do with Rock Ferry, the area where I live in Birkenhead. Of course, there are some parts of Birkenhead that will be grand enough to be on a par with the Minister’s constituency. Indeed, parts of the constituency, as the hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey) will know, would make Hampstead look positively downmarket. However, other areas of the Wirral are really hard pressed. Therefore, Governments’ attempts to redirect resources to us are immensely important, because of the possibility of opening up opportunities to people who are poor and would otherwise be denied them.
First, there was a contract of £5 million for Rock Ferry; English Estates was offering that to us to kick-start development. One of the senior officers just could not be bothered, or was not efficient enough, to get the contract in on time. In that year, English Estates had overspent, so it could not believe its luck that Wirral council was so inefficient and the £5 million grant that would have come to us, which would have kick-started redevelopment in Rock Ferry, would not now be made. That is the first of the appalling errors of administration that I am concerned about.
The second error is to do with the contract to upgrade and undertake a long-term rental agreement for the Cheshire Lines building in Birkenhead. That contract has cost the council £11 million. It did not have the full authority of the council, and it received a pretty horrendous report from the district auditor. The contract related to a building that the council did not own, although it owned—and still does, thank goodness— Birkenhead town hall, and the money could have been spent on the town hall, to bring the accommodation up to standard. The call centre work that the council wanted to do in the Cheshire Lines building could have been transferred to one of its own buildings. What happened was discovered only because a member of staff reported to councillors that major work for which no authority had been given was being undertaken in the Cheshire Lines building. Again, councillors were informed by sources outside the authority, not by the officers.
The third of my examples concerns the attempt to win a new academy building for the lower half of my constituency. Over two successive years, attempts were made by the previous Government to get the children and young people’s officer to make a proper application for a rebuilt academy. Thanks to an inquiry by the previous Government, we were reorganising secondary education in Wirral, and it was recommended that two schools should be combined. The first offer made by the authorities was years before the general election and it was for a new build. We were invited to bid up to £40 million. In the first year, the application was not in on time. In the second year—the year running up to the general election—again, the council failed to deliver the plans to the Department for Education, which would have allowed us to get a totally rebuilt academy. Instead of that, one school is closed and children travel miles to the second school, which has now had to take on the role of the main academy site.
A little adding up brings a figure of almost £60 million of squandered opportunities. I have been the Member of Parliament for a little over 30 years now. If we think about the effect on the rates, we realise that an extra 2p off the rates has been lost by the incompetence of a small group of chief officers.
I shall not go into the details of two other current controversies that are before the council: a major inquiry into how the whistleblower Martin Morton has been treated and the report by the auditor that is due by, I hope, Friday on how the Colas contract has been dealt with.
On the Martin Morton report, the name of a councillor trips on to one page and then falls off almost immediately, but the report is about the quality of and the judgment displayed by the senior officers of Wirral borough council in that case. That is not of course to excuse the politicians, because they are in charge of the political machinery of this country, but it was a damning report on the actions and the quality of a group of chief officers.
We await the publication of the Colas report on Friday. It will again emphasise how chief officers have behaved. I went through the piles of paper that the whistleblowers gave me on the decision about the Colas contract. I like reading and it is obviously part of my job, but I could not have found out what might have been going on without the help of the whistleblowers. The papers were presented to the council in a way in which the most diligent of the councillors would have found it very hard to understand what was behind them.
I turn to the Minister and ask him for help, and I do so with an example fresh in my mind. After the debacle over the non-new build of the academy, I asked if I could chair the governors. That was after the academy had been established, and I was presented with some very real problems, about which I sought legal advice. I phoned the two senior people in the Young People’s Learning Agency and in the Department for Education to tell them what I was doing and to seek their advice. Their advice was that, as I had one of the best lawyers in the business, I should follow the lawyer’s advice. In doing so and starting that procedure, however, I could not talk to anyone, least of all those in the Department.
At the end of the process, when an agreement was struck and signed at 5 pm on a Friday, I phoned the two senior people in the Department and, within an hour and a half, I was given four candidates to interview. They had just retired and had been very successful—outstanding—leaders of their schools or colleges. On the Monday, we were therefore able to have someone in place, if only temporarily, for the following two terms. I was surprised by the quickness of that and the quality of the advice.
The plea that I know all Wirral Members wish to make to the Minister is to ask him to see them to discuss what action he has the power to take to help us make real progress in getting quality leadership in the Wirral, of which we are proud.
Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con)
I have listened carefully to what the right hon. Gentleman said, which is the tip of the iceberg of what has happened in Wirral for the past 10 years. He mentioned the Anna Klonowski report. We have also had two reports made under the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998. We have had the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government step in about the libraries. A lot has gone wrong there, but does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that for politicians to sidestep their responsibilities and hand over the blame to officers is political cowardice at its worst and that the people who were responsible and were leading the council should take the blame that is attributable to them?
Mr Field
The Minister will know that I am probably the last person to think that politicians should not stand up, take the blame and defend their quarter. In no way do I wish to counter what the hon. Lady has said but, even if we deal with that issue, we have a real problem about the quality of our chief officers. She knows who I am speaking about in this debate. I have not wished to claim privilege and name them, because I do not want that sort of press campaign; I want us to be able to think carefully about what help we might seek from outside so that, whatever political changes occur, we can be proud of the administration in the Wirral. I have clearly fingered two officers in my speech, because their fingerprints are over the issues that I have raised.
If at all possible, I want to advance this matter by seeking support to bring about decisive change, as we received at the academy from the relevant Department. I hope that this will therefore be the last debate that we will have to hold in Parliament about the running of Wirral authority and the last time that we have to raise the sort of examples about the role of politicians that were cited by the hon. Lady. I shall make way for the Minister, but I end on this note: we need his and the Department’s help, because we will clearly not make the changes to our senior officers without outside help.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill)
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair again, Miss Clark.
I congratulate the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) on securing this important debate, which involves troubling and complex issues for residents of the Wirral. On behalf of all Government Members, I add my congratulations to the hon. Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) on her happy news, and I am sure we are all delighted to wish her and her new baby well. At an appropriate moment, I will be more than happy to meet the right hon. Gentleman, my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey) and other Wirral Members to discuss the issues. I am always happy to meet representatives of any local authority area, if I can be of help.
That does not, of course, mean that the Government can or should offer quick fixes for such problems. The right hon. Member for Birkenhead has set out the issues with characteristic care. I am sure he and everyone in the House will understand that I have to be careful and a little guarded in commenting on individual cases, the more so as some of them will be looked at by the appropriate agencies. I do not mean any disrespect if I have to be careful in that regard. I can, however, talk in broad terms about the work that the coalition is putting in place to devolve power and accountability to the lowest level, because those two things go together, and to help local people to hold their councillors to account and, in turn, to help the councillors to hold their officials to account. Equally, we are taking steps to encourage the local government sector as a whole to improve, and there are ways in which sometimes the Department, but very often that sector itself, can promote the improvements that we all want for the sake of the people of the Wirral.
I have had the pleasure of visiting the Wirral on a couple of occasions. I cannot remember if I have done so since I became a Minister, but I certainly did so when I was a shadow Minister and I enjoyed my visit. I should say that one of my oldest friends at the Bar is the grandson of a former lord mayor of Birkenhead, so I have a connection with the area. All I can say is that the right hon. Gentleman is quite right—I say this with personal feeling—that one should always take the advice of one’s lawyer. I am glad that he has found a good one and, I hope an economical one; I am sure that that is the case. It is true that my constituency has its grand elements, but it also includes wards that contain much the same deprivation as he and my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West have to deal with. Councils are critical in delivering services for people in all circumstances in their communities, and that is particularly important for those who are vulnerable or under pressure.
Against that background, we have sought, first, to achieve a much greater degree of transparency about how local authorities operate and, secondly, to ensure that there is proper accountability to the community, rather than the previous approach of accountability being largely centralised by means of making reports to Departments. For that reason, we moved away from the centralised regime of league tables through the comprehensive area assessment and the national indicator set. Evidence showed that it was possible for local authorities to tick the necessary boxes there, but that would not necessarily mean that there was the quality of service one would wish to see on the ground.
We have, therefore, swept that away and made it easier for local people to hold their elected representatives to account. We are doing that in planning matters, in which I know the right hon. Member for Birkenhead has taken a particular interest, and I look forward to continuing to work with him. We have done it through replacing capping council tax increases with referendums. In particular, we published in September 2011 a recommended code of practice on data transparency for local authorities. It is important—as the right hon. Gentleman has said—that councils should have an understanding of the data that they hold and that people can access the data so that they can properly hold their representatives to account. There should be awareness of the data, which should be published. There should be proper information in relation to contracts and tenders, as the right hon. Gentleman has rightly said.
Generally, local authorities have willingly put that in practice, with the exception of one authority, the city of Nottingham. That is not an issue in Wirral. Making that kind of information available in the public domain is critical. Devolution, decentralisation and transparency do not stop at the town or city hall. They have to go further, to an informed, I hope, community and electorate.
There clearly have been matters of great concern in Wirral. I am aware of the allegations made by the whistleblower referred to by the right hon. Gentleman. That whistleblower was able to make his concerns public through a local paper, The Wirral Globe, as well as by getting in touch with the right hon. Gentleman. Having openness and transparency with the local press and media is also important, which is why we have sought to protect the rights of local papers to access this sort of information.
It is fair to say that the previous administration of Wirral borough council—I know that there have been changes—commissioned the report by Anna Klonowski, which will be a matter of debate before the council in due course. I am not going to pre-empt decisions members of Wirral borough council take in that regard. That the then administration commissioned that report is obviously a step in the right direction. It is important to be transparent. I understand that an improvement plan has been put in place with the agreement of the various political parties on the council, which is a desirable step forward.
As a general rule, the Government are keen to encourage sector-led improvement. I know that is being done in Wirral’s case. As I understand it, the Local Government Association, which operates on a cross-party basis, has arranged for substantial peer support in Wirral, both at member and officer level. I am glad that Wirral has engaged in that process. The LGA has also helped Wirral to establish an independently chaired improvement board involving the various political parties and a number of representatives from the sector. That is an approach we seek to encourage. There is a great deal of learning in local government around these improvement issues, and the Department is keen to support that, but not pre-empt what is often best done by one set of practitioners to another, with the particular skills sets that they bring. It is worth paying tribute to the work of the LGA, because Wirral is not the first council to benefit from its peer support and interventions.
Rather than having a one-size-fits-all approach from Whitehall, it is important to take such steps as are appropriate from Government to set a framework in which local initiatives can take place. The “Open Public Services” White Paper is part of that, ensuring that procurement of local authority services is open to the sort of challenge that ought to highlight and redress practices that can become established, particularly if there has been a long tradition of political or officer stasis. That is important and the LGA has been much involved. Generally, local government has the highest record of commissioning of services in the public sector. I would not want anyone to think that all local authorities are not doing that. It is right that pressure is kept up for everyone to seek to be as good as the best.
Esther McVey
The right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) rightly painted a picture of a failing council on Wirral. There is also the leadership of that council. There has been failure there, too, and there will be on Monday night a vote of no confidence in those who are leading the council. Does the Minister agree that that is the place—on Monday in the council—for this matter to be addressed, and for those who are failing Wirral to be dealt with?
Robert Neill
The thrust of our localism agenda is that accountability should no longer be regarded as being from the council to Whitehall but the council to its local community. The elected members of the local authority are there as representatives. Under our current system of leader in cabinet, an administration is formed. The ultimate political responsibility for the operation of any local authority must rest with the political leaders, of whatever complexion they may be. In the same way, Ministers must ultimately be responsible for the actions of Government, regardless of political directions. My hon. Friend is perfectly right in that regard.
Mr Frank Field
It might help the Minister in making these judgments to know about the political composition of Wirral borough council. It is shared among three parties. Going back to the Cheshire Lines building contract, which cost the council £11 million and was authorised without the political say-so of the councillors, the then leader of the council—the Labour leader who currently leads the council—brought in the Audit Commission, which gave the most damning report. The other two political parties—the Tories and the Liberals—voted to take no action. It is very difficult to reprehend or take more serious action against senior officers when the political parties themselves will not put the interests of Wirral first but seek party advantage.
Robert Neill
I was going to say that one course that is an appropriate safeguard where necessary is to make a reference to the district auditor. I note that the leader of the Labour administration called in the Audit Commission, which I am sure was the correct thing to do. It is not for me to judge. Equally, I note that it was a Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition that commissioned the Klonowski report, which is the subject of debate. I am glad for any member of any political complexion leading a council to stand up and take responsibility for actions. That is the key test. It is not for me to judge what decision Wirral borough council comes to about its future administration.
Robert Neill
If I can finish this sentence, then I will. The key point—with which I think we all agree—is that if one stands for office one has to recognise that the buck stops and one has to take responsibility. We must ensure that members have the information and procedures to enable them to carry out those responsibilities properly and effectively.
Esther McVey
I wanted to say that it is not for us here today to pre-empt what will happen on Monday night. That is a vital night, with a vote of no confidence in those people who have misled the Wirral, and I think we leave it to them to do it.
Robert Neill
I am going to be careful not to be drawn too much into the debate that takes place on Monday night. I hope that I have indicated that the Government have set a clear agenda to improve transparency and encourage sector-led improvement. I am glad to hear that steps are being taken in the case of Wirral to take that on board and I hope it continues.
Fishing Vessels (Safety)
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)
It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Miss Clark.
This matter is very close to my son, my daughter and me. I no longer have a commercial interest in it, but the House knows of the loss I suffered on 24 March last year. If lives can be saved as a result of what has been learnt from Neil’s tragic accident, we will be content. I place on record my heartfelt sympathy for the family of the Mevagissey fisherman, Ian Thomas, who was so tragically lost last December, and I thank the maritime rescue services and the Fishermen’s Mission for their continued support for our seafarers. In the words of the Fishermen’s Mission:
“Over 13,000 men and women work in the UK’s toughest and most dangerous peacetime occupation: deep sea fishing. At sea, they face death and injury on a daily basis.”
Since 1991, the marine accident investigation branch—the MAIB—has recorded 153 accidents involving single-handed operations on board UK-registered fishing vessels, one in five of which have resulted in a fatality. Every fisherman is of course aware of the dangers posed by the working environment of certain fishing operations. Many of them are confronted with the economic decision of putting to sea in heavier weather conditions to support an adequate share of the catch for the crew, or working their boat single-handedly and working less weather. My own family faced that dilemma. Many fishermen choose to work alone on their fishing boat at their peril. Fishing gear and heavy machinery pose a genuine threat, and every fisherman I know is well aware of the dangerous environment in which they work.
Numerous recorded accidents demonstrate that fishermen’s work can be made safer by installing emergency stop buttons. In some instances, the use of an emergency stop button has been entirely responsible for saving a fisherman’s life. The incident on board Danielle is one such example. A deck hand sustained major injuries, but without the emergency stop button the injuries most certainly would have been fatal. Danielle was a UK-registered scallop dredger, and the deck hand was tipping each scallop dredge individually. He was using several turns of rope around the whipping drum on the port side of the winch house, when a riding turn developed. In an attempt to stop the winch and clear the riding turn, the deck hand slipped on the recovered dredges lying on the deck and his left hand became caught in the rope. He did two backward somersaults, whipping around the drum and the framework. He could not reach the stop button on his first attempt. He sustained horrific injuries, and he knew that if he went around a third time he might not survive, but he eventually managed to stand up, stretch and hit the stop button. That demonstrates that an emergency stop button is a vital piece of equipment. One needs to protect oneself against the worst possible scenarios when operating heavy machinery.
Going to sea alone is ultimately more dangerous than going with others. Statistics show that a fisherman has a higher chance of survival in an accident if he has other crew members on board, even more so if there is an emergency stop button, which will increase his safety. The dangers of fishing alone can be seen in the loss of the skipper of Breadwinner, who was dragged overboard and drowned while shooting prawn creels. The boat was being operated single-handedly, with no one to assist the skipper when he became trapped in a creel leader rope. The MAIB concluded that an emergency stop button would have most probably saved his life.
Cases involving serious injuries but not fatalities because other crew members were on board include that of Blue Angel. The fisherman was dragged overboard when his leg became caught in the back rope of a fleet of creels that was being shot over the stern. The two remaining crewmen managed to recover him and administer first aid, and he was transferred to hospital where he made a full recovery. The evidence shows that fishermen are putting themselves at direct risk by fishing alone, as they have no one to assist them if they get into a critical situation, and that is why an emergency stop button is vital for fishermen who choose to do so.
The 2007 code of practice for the safety of small fishing vessels recognised the importance of emergency stop valves, and a requirement was introduced for all new vessels to be constructed and outfitted in accordance with the latest Seafish Industry Authority standards, including the fitting of emergency stop buttons to the operational machinery.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I congratulate the hon. Lady on bringing this matter to the House, and on her courage. We know just how much this means to her.
Clearly it is essential that the safety stop valve is put on boats, but the hon. Lady will be aware of the cost. Is she also aware of the EU grant? I understand that the EU will give a grant of 40% of the cost. This is a devolved matter in the regions, and in the one that I represent—Northern Ireland—the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development will have to give some commitment as well. Does the hon. Lady feel that the EU and the regional Administrations can work together to ensure that safety on the boats can be achieved?
Sheryll Murray
I will come on to funding a little later. I have obviously looked at England, but there is work to be done with the devolved Administrations as well.
The modification to the net drum aboard my husband’s stern trawler, Our Boy Andrew, and on many other vessels was completed before 2007, and there was therefore no legal requirement for emergency stop valves to be fitted. The Maritime and Coastguard Agency had previously published an industry-sponsored safety leaflet entitled “Single Handed Operation”, which provided a simple list of safety do’s and don’ts, but it was no longer in print at the time of the accident aboard Our Boy Andrew. I am delighted that the MCA has, as an interim measure, reinstated the leaflet on its website, and I hope the Minister will join me in calling for all single-handed fishermen to source and read that list of do’s and don’ts. One of the leaflet’s recommendations is the fitting and maintaining of emergency stops. The most recent investigations by the marine accident investigation branch have recommended the provision of emergency stops.
On the costs of the emergency stop valve, the expense is considerable for a small boat. A family-owned boatyard in my constituency, C. Toms and Son, was kind enough to give me a quotation. The installation of one emergency stop button would set back a fisherman about £981, with extra valves costing £35 each. The more stop buttons that are installed, the more the price of the wiring drops. The cost of a foot control with a heavy lead, which would enable the fisherman to move it around the deck, would cost about an extra £333. That is a total of £1,314, which is a large expense for a small, lower-grossing vessel. The economics is forcing more fishermen into single-handed operations, yet fitting emergency stop buttons is seen as an expensive modification, which is often put off until a later day. Knowing fishermen as I do and understanding the economic pressures they face, with fuel costs, harbour dues and insurance having to be found from the catch before they can provide for their families and pay household bills, I understand only too well how that can happen.
With that in mind, I approached the Marine Management Organisation to find out whether there was a possibility of financial help through the European fisheries fund, and I am delighted to have received a positive reply. The MMO confirmed:
“Further to our recent correspondence regarding the above, I would like to assure you that the Marine Management Organisation (MMO) is fully committed to anything which improves the safety of fishermen and we are…pleased to be involved”
in this
“application. We have considered the eligibility in-line with the European Fisheries Fund regulation and national strategic priorities. I am delighted to confirm that safety stop valves are eligible under the scheme and we will be able to offer the following funding rates to applicants across England”.
Vessels under 12 metres not using towed gear can get 60% funding. Vessels under 12 metres using towed gear will get 40% funding. Vessels between 12 metres and 15 metres using all fishing methods will get 40% funding.
The reply continued:
“The funding sits within Axis 1—Vessel Modernisation and selectivity Measure 1 Improvement of safety on board. Applications can be submitted either by…individual fisherman or…an association of fishermen for consideration by the MMO. Application forms and guidance are available”
from the website,
“direct from the MMO Business Relations Team”
or from its coastal offices.
“Funding is available across England for all eligible vessels. It is…worth highlighting that boat yards and installers who carry out the installation of…safety stop valves must be registered businesses and the MMO cannot recommend individual companies.”
It concludes with:
“Please be assured we will make colleagues in our coastal offices aware of this new funding opportunity so they can…publicise it across the industry. In closing the MMO are very pleased to be able to support this safety addition to vessels and we are hopeful of receiving applications shortly.”
I have demonstrated today some very real scenarios of what can happen to fishermen when they go to sea without an emergency stop button. The MMO has undertaken to publicise the availability of funding and to help with the purchase of the equipment. Will my hon. Friend the Minister for Shipping join me in urging all fishermen to take advantage of the European funding and enhance safety on board fishing vessels? No one knows more than I do that our fishermen do a heroic and very dangerous job, and I hope they will now all fit emergency stop valves to their vessels as soon as possible.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mike Penning)
I think this is the first time either as a Minister or a shadow Minister that I have served under your chairmanship, Miss Clark, and it is a pleasure to do so this afternoon. I warmly thank my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) for securing the debate. The only word to describe her and her family is “dignified.” We cannot imagine the loss to her family, but how she has taken the arguments forward, so that others do not suffer in the way that she and her family have done, is moving. The House needs to pay tribute to the work that she has done and will do, and some of that work will, I hope, be with me.
The really serious situation that my hon. Friend has brought up has touched so many families around this great maritime nation of ours. The shipping industry has been with us, and dangerous, for as long as anybody can remember, but it is particularly difficult at the moment, especially for the smaller inshore fleets, simply because the economics of having a crew on a ship sometimes makes it almost impossible to make the trade viable. With the costs of insurance, harbour dues and fuel, as my hon. Friend mentioned, the one saving available to skippers is to limit the number of crew on their ships, thus limiting their costs, and many of them have made that decision. I used to live on the coast in Southend, and I watched the inshore boys regularly going out single-handed. It helps them in that it reduces their overheads, but it also puts them at enormous risk. Anything that we can do to help them to limit the risk is one of the highest priorities for any Government of any colour or persuasion.
When I took on this job and looked across my portfolio, I was pleased that I shared part of it with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, which has responsibility for fisheries policy, and shared responsibility for the Marine Management Organisation, which was a new entity, with a DEFRA Minister. One of the MMO’s key jobs is to ensure that we finance the right priorities in the right way. We have something like 17,500 part-time and full-time fishermen in the UK. Even though the debate is about England, I hope that my colleagues and fellow Ministers in the devolved Administrations are listening, because if we can secure money from the Commission, I am pretty certain that they can.
Jim Shannon
I thank the Minister for that very encouraging response. Does he intend to contact the devolved Administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to make them aware of the funding? I have talked to some of the fishing organisations back home and I think that they are aware of it, but sometimes a wee nudge from the Minister enables them to move just that wee bit quicker.
Mike Penning
I know that I am enormously popular in Northern Ireland in particular at the moment, so I am sure that a nudge from my size-10 boot would not go amiss. I assure the hon. Gentleman that I will contact all my counterparts in the devolved Assemblies to ensure that they are aware of the debate and the research that my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall has done on behalf of all fishermen, and to give them a subtle hint, because as my hon. Friend knows, it is not quite as simple as it sounds.
It sounds as if I could stand here as Minister and just say, “We all know the safety benefits that could come from installing the emergency stop valve on a boat, so make it compulsory.” Why not regulate to avert such dangers? The biggest reason that I am not going to do that is not because I do not think that it would work, because it would, but because of the costs. The costs would be so bad for small inshore fishermen. The figure of £1,300 is interesting, but the true figure might be £1,300 plus VAT, if they are registered for VAT. It might be more than that in certain parts of the country, but it might be less in parts of the country with more competition. Some fishermen could not even get £1,300 with an overdraft or a loan, and so would not be able to go to sea.
Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
I appreciate the Minister’s concerns about costs; it is a very salient issue for smaller vessels in particular. My concern about regulation is that the experience of recent years has been that where fishermen’s organisations themselves own the issues, self-regulation has been effective, as we have seen with conservation measures. I urge him to continue on the path he is taking.
Mike Penning
I have absolutely no intention of regulating, and the reason for that is that my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall has found a funding stream from Europe to the UK—what a fantastic thing. I wish we had a bit more like that. It is excellent news. If I regulate and make valves compulsory—I will give way to my hon. Friend if I am wrong—the funding stream ceases. Fishermen have to bid for the funding for themselves or as a group through the relevant bodies. If I say that I will lay before the House a regulation or statutory instrument using my powers, the funding stream will cease. That is the biggest reason I have not regulated.
I will encourage all fishermen who fall into the three categories my hon. Friend mentioned—I think there might be one other category—to apply for funding through the MMO. I will facilitate that. We will have links through our websites and ensure that we publicise it, to draw down the funding and get the valves installed as soon as possible. We must also look at new fleet. There are not as many new ships and many have been adapted from different uses over the years, but we need to ensure that when they come out of any of our boatyards, such technology is included at the point of manufacture.
I was disappointed when the Maritime and Coastguard Agency withdrew the single-handed leaflet. As soon as that was brought to my attention, I sought to address it. It will now be made not only available, but permanently available. It is not a temporary measure and it will be regularly updated, not least with the information that we have heard during this debate. It is crucial that we do that.
We need to work on other measures as well as the stop buttons. We need to address the culture among our fishermen and women whereby the odd injury or risk is seen as acceptable and a badge of honour. When I went to Grimsby earlier this year, I was disturbed to hear from a crew that one of their colleagues had been dragged overboard and had drowned because he was not wearing any buoyancy equipment. After that, they all started wearing such equipment, but the peer pressure suffered by the youngest member of the crew meant that, within six months, they had all stopped wearing it. We have to break away from that culture and work together as a Government and an industry to say that it is not big of someone to put their life at risk. People put their lives at risk enough by going to sea in order to earn a living. It is not a badge of honour to lose a finger. I have seen so many injuries, whether they be scars or the odd missing digit, just by shaking hands with fishermen around the country.
I have discussed this issue with my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall and know that her husband, prior to his terrible accident, had had an injury at sea. We have a responsibility to the industry to say that this is not acceptable. We know that they are proud men and women and that they have a fantastic history, but it would be much better—this is a subtle hint—for their families and young ones if they were as able-bodied as possible when fishing in order to bring in their income.
Through Seafish, we are continuing with the training. Fortunately, we won the court ruling on the funding of Seafish, which is enormously important. The fishing industry safety group is chaired on my behalf via the MCA and I have asked it whether my hon. Friend could join. I ask her whether she is willing to offer her expertise and knowledge to the group. It would have liked to ask her before the debate, but felt that it was for me, the Minister, to do so. I suggested to it that it should have asked me earlier. Even so, if we can get more people with life experiences, as well as “experts,” involved in the industry, I think that we will be able to bring much more understanding to bodies such as the fishing industry safety group. That would be of benefit.
Mike Penning
I see that my hon. Friend is nodding, but I shall give way so that she can formally accept my invitation.
Sheryll Murray
I say to my hon. Friend the Minister that it would be an honour and a privilege to join the fishing industry safety group. Will he pass on my grateful thanks for the invitation? I would be delighted to accept.
Mike Penning
That is fantastic news, because the dignity and knowledge that my hon. Friend has brought to this debate and to that taking place in the country as a whole will now be part of the fishing industry safety group. I also hope that her membership of the group will shake it up a bit. We have got to know each other very well over the past 18 months, and we both know that the industry needs to be shaken up. I also fully understand that my own Department needs to ask “Why?” in relation to certain aspects of this particular area. I am not saying that that is true of everything, but there is sometimes a definite need to ask questions.
In conclusion—I have kept my remarks relatively brief, but there is no point in my waffling on—we completely agree with my hon. Friend and we will address the devolved Assemblies issue. I have nothing but admiration for the fishermen who go to sea. They do so not only to look after their families, but on our behalf, and bring in a wonderful plethora of seafish and crustacean from our wonderful waters, which are being protected more and more. Fishermen have had issues with discard, but that is more of an issue out at sea. I agree with their concerns and we are desperately trying to sort out the issue of discard. If we can continue to protect our fleet as new ships with safety buttons are introduced, and if I can for once not regulate and see some benefit from that—if I regulated, we would not see any benefits—that will be better for everybody, and so many families, such as that of my hon. Friend, would not be in the situation in which they find themselves.
Economic Development (Barnsley)
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
It is a privilege to serve under your chairship, Ms Clark. It is worth prefacing what I want to say in this debate with a few remarks about the town of Barnsley. It is a proud borough, which is characterised historically by the efforts of hard-working people. It now has a high proportion of welfare claimants, but let us remember that this area was at the heart of the fight for jobs in the 1980s. Coal miners in Barnsley fought a long, hard battle, at considerable personal cost, to keep their jobs—their battle cry was “Coal not dole”—so when we think of Barnsley as it is now, let us remember that this is an area in which people want to work. Their pride is built on their contribution to Britain’s economic performance in the past, a contribution that I would argue is not easily surpassed.
Seventy per cent. of Barnsley is rural. Indeed, part of it is in the Peak District national park. It is characterised not just by the most outstanding natural beauty that it is possible to find in the UK, but by a string of stately homes on the western side. That needs to be put on the record much more often than it is, because the images presented of Barnsley at a national level and in the media are invariably negative. Even some of those images presented in Parliament are incredibly negative. Those of us who live in the area know that Barnsley offers a superb quality of life. Perhaps Government themselves could do more to promote Barnsley as a place to live and work.
It is also important to put on the record that Barnsley had recovered to some extent from where it was about 15 years ago. It is now firmly in the global digital age, with a wide range of modern companies. If we now endure the humiliation of coal being taken to Barnsley, it is also true that Fosters bakery—one of the big employers in the town—sells its baguettes in France. The town has hidden secrets here and there, but a borough cannot live on bread alone, and Barnsley still has a long way to go.
Barnsley’s economy shrank by an alarming degree in the 1980s and early 1990s, and the demise of the coal industry left it bereft of alternative job opportunities. The inter-generational legacy of employment in hard manual labour—nowadays we talk about the inter-generational legacy of unemployment—was abruptly stopped and the social infrastructure provided by the largest employer in the town was withdrawn. That is often overlooked when we think of the social problems that are experienced in some of our ex-mining areas. We forget that one of the biggest providers of social and sporting opportunities was the coal board. The old social club network that was created in steel and coal has largely disappeared and has been left to fend for itself.
Recovery from that catastrophe was hard but, as I have said, progress was made only for everything to be sent backwards by the recession of 2008-09. Barnsley was always going to take longer to recover compared with other areas, but the recession and now the flatlining of the economy threaten the long-term recovery of that once great town.
It is not difficult to see what needs to be done. We need private sector growth in Barnsley—nobody has ever denied that or said any different. We need that growth to build the jobs and the sustainable prosperity that the borough so badly needs. We need to rebuild what has been lost in the local economy in the past 25 years. That is even more the case now thanks to the impending loss of public sector jobs, as the Government’s huge cuts bite locally.
Before outlining what the Government could specifically do to support economic growth in Barnsley, it is worth spelling out the extent of the barriers that Barnsley still faces and that hold the town back from realising its full potential. First, it needs placing on the record that Barnsley has the lowest job density rate in the Yorkshire region at 0.56. An extra 32,000 jobs would need to be created in the borough to reach the national level.
Secondly, Barnsley has a below average stock of business. It currently has around 4,920 VAT-registered businesses, which is a deficit of around 1,500 businesses compared with the regional average. Barnsley also has a higher than average concentration of businesses in risk averse sectors, for example, construction, retail and transport. Those sectors are likely to be affected by future economic uncertainty and limited short-term growth. Barnsley also continues to lag behind national and regional survival rates for new businesses.
Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is speaking powerfully about Barnsley. Many of the things she is saying could be said about other former coalfield areas. I am sure that she will go on to mention this, but is it not important for the Government to have a strategy for all the former coalfield areas?
Angela Smith
I completely agree with my hon. Friend. Nottinghamshire, Yorkshire, the north-east, south Wales and Kent are all areas where the withdrawal of the UK from mining coal and from allowing coal to make a contribution to the UK national economy has had a massive impact that has never been fully appreciated down here. The task of rebuilding those areas has also never been fully appreciated. Let us face it, one of the difficulties is that the coal industry was built around small villages. It is not easy to replicate an economic activity that is built around a series of small villages. It is easy to do so in Sheffield, where there are huge tracts of land and an economic centre to build on, but Barnsley is 70% rural, as I am sure my hon. Friend’s constituency is.
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
The Government are concentrating on foreign and direct investment and export-orientated companies, but does the hon. Lady agree that it is important that they concentrate more on the small, indigenous businesses? After all, no matter what part of the United Kingdom those businesses come from, they are the backbone of the economy.
Angela Smith
The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point. I was going to go on to say that one of Barnsley’s problems is that it continues to lag behind national and regional survival rates for new small businesses. That, of course, limits increases in the business stock and, in the end, job opportunities for local people.
On the supply side of the equation, there are currently 6,962 jobseeker’s allowance claimants in Barnsley. That is a rate of 4.7%, which is significantly higher than the national figure of 3.9%. Among young people, the figure is particularly high, with 12.1% aged 18 to 24 on JSA, compared with 7.8% nationally. Perhaps most startlingly of all, 20.7% of the working age population are claiming some form of out-of-work benefits, compared with 14.5% nationally.
At this point, I remind the Minister of my earlier comment that nowhere was the fight to save jobs in the 1980s more intense than in Barnsley. So please let us not assume that the high level of benefit claimants in Barnsley means that the area is somehow populated by the workshy, because that just is not the case. Indeed, I would argue that the opposite is true, and that the struggle to find work in an area such as Barnsley must be deeply dispiriting for a people who are for the most part proud of their community and their work ethic.
So what needs to be done? Well, the first and most important thing to say is that Barnsley needs a plan for jobs and growth from central Government. In other words, we need to get the economy moving again, and the Government could help to deliver the required stimulus in a number of ways. They could, for instance, support the development of the affordable and sustainable housing that the country so badly needs. They could also support more consistently the development of renewable technologies and the industry’s building around those technologies. Barnsley has around 30 solar-tech companies that employ hundreds of people in semi-skilled and skilled well-paid work. Yet, what we see at the moment is the pursuit of an appeal at the Supreme Court against the sudden and damaging reduction in the rate for the feed-in tariff scheme. We need more clarity and consistency from the Government and more awareness of the impact on business of sudden and damaging decisions, such as the one we saw in relation to FITs.
We also need the Government to reinstate the grant for business investment scheme that allowed small and medium-sized enterprises to make capital investments in plant and machinery where linked to company and job growth. That would be a more focused and useful means of supporting job creation than the regional growth fund, which is rapidly being discredited as it gets tangled in red tape. The regional growth fund is also failing to deliver the private sector leverage promised by the Deputy Prime Minister when he launched it. The biggest award so far has gone to a company in Chelmsford and is estimated to lever in just £3.70 for every £1 of RGF money allocated by the Government, compared with the £5 promised by the Deputy Prime Minister. Incidentally, Barnsley has not seen much of that money so far.
The Government also need to address the void left by Business Link Yorkshire. A national website is no substitute for the intensive and tailored support offered by Business Link, and we are worried that the gaps in provision may result in a higher than normal business failure rate. The Government also need to consider how best to deal with the problem of access to finance for SMEs in Barnsley, because business in the area is seen as inherently higher risk. Therefore, it is more difficult for companies to access finance for investment and expansion on sensible terms. The Minister’s commitment to at least look at that issue would be welcome. In other words, if businesses generally in this country are finding it hard to secure funding at sensible rates from banks, let us imagine how hard it is for businesses in Barnsley, where it is generally judged that they have a harder job to survive.
The Government also need to look at the work of UK Trade & Investment in attracting inward investment. If the Government are serious about rebalancing the economy, we need to see every part of what they do dedicated to that task. There is no better place to start than UKTI. Why not prioritise regions such as Yorkshire, particularly areas sorely in need of investment such as Barnsley, for UKTI investment—or rather for the investment that UKTI manages to secure from overseas sources? Why should the Government not put Barnsley first for a change, rather than London and the south-east?
Finally, we need more support for skills development in the borough. We need modern apprenticeship systems that are built on a long-term compact between labour and employers. Germany does that, and its youth unemployment rate is one third of the OECD average.
Barnsley is a proud town, which should have a prosperous future. It has been prosperous in the past. This country would not be what it is today if it had not been for the efforts and the sacrifices made by generation after generation of coal miners in places such as Barnsley—there is no doubt about that. Barnsley does not deserve to be where it is today. It deserves the support of the Government. The people living in Barnsley do not want to be dependent on benefits; they want a vibrant, diverse local economy. They want a Government who are committed to jobs and growth. They want a Government who are prepared to invest in a highly skilled work force—the work force that Barnsley needs for its future. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s view on how best his Government can deliver what is necessary to achieve that.
Katy Clark (in the Chair)
I have not had an indication that another hon. Member wished to speak, so it is my intention to call the Minister. Has the hon. Lady who secured the debate had an indication that another hon. Member wished to speak, and have you given permission for that?
Katy Clark (in the Chair)
Has the Minister had notification that another hon. Member wishes to speak?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Norman Lamb)
No, but that is fine.
Katy Clark (in the Chair)
The normal convention would be for both the Minister and me to be informed, but that is not a problem in this case. I call Andrew Bingham.
Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con)
I apologise, Ms Clark. I spotted this debate on the bottom of the Order Paper only late last night, so I apologise for waltzing in and expecting to speak. I was going to make my point in an intervention, but I felt that there was probably time to say a few words. Thank you for allowing me to speak, Ms Clark, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship.
The hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) makes a good case for her constituency and for Barnsley. One may ask the question, “Why would the hon. Member for High Peak wish to speak on a debate concerning Barnsley?” There is a simple reason: the A628, which is the arterial road that goes from Barnsley across the Pennines to Manchester through my constituency of High Peak. On that road, we have a serious problem that causes a hiatus for traffic. It is known as the Mottram-Tintwistle bypass and is well documented in Hansard. I met recently with a councillor from Barnsley who told me that one of the difficulties for people in Barnsley is that they cannot travel across the Pennines for employment opportunities in the Manchester area, because the hiatus on that road makes the journey impossible. I highlight that because if we could deal with that problem it would increase the throughput across.
I was heartened that in the autumn statement the Chancellor committed to £5 billion-worth of capital in the next spending review, so plans can start now. We have had meetings on this, and I hope the Government will listen to our pleas in the next spending review. That would enable employment in my constituency and that of the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge.
Angela Smith
On a point of order, Miss Clark. This topic is more a matter for the Department for Transport than for the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. This debate is about jobs in Barnsley, not in Manchester.
Katy Clark (in the Chair)
I thank the hon. Lady for her point of order. My view was that transport links are very closely linked to issues of economic development, so I did not rule the hon. Gentleman out of order. Has the hon. Gentleman finished his speech?
Katy Clark (in the Chair)
There is absolutely no need for the hon. Gentleman to respond.
Andrew Bingham
My point is in response to the meeting with a Barnsley councillor two weeks ago.
Katy Clark (in the Chair)
Have you finished your contribution, or do you wish to continue?
Andrew Bingham
Representatives from Barnsley council remarked on the transport links in relation to employment in the Barnsley area. That is my only reason for raising that point.
Katy Clark (in the Chair)
I now call the Minister to respond. Obviously, he will be able to respond only within the responsibilities of his Department.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Norman Lamb)
This is the second time in two days that I have served under your chairmanship, Ms Clark—too much of a good thing. I congratulate the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) on securing the debate. She spoke passionately about the area that she represents. She is right to say that it is stunningly beautiful. The image is often entirely inaccurate—the proud town that she talked about, and the surrounding area, has so much to commend it. Everyone, nationally and locally, should talk up the various regions of our country, particularly the region that she has spoken about today.
The hon. Lady spoke, rightly, about the challenges facing an area that has gone through a dramatic change with the loss of coal mining. As that industry was based in a rural area, it is difficult to rebuild the local economy. Governments of all complexions have faced those challenges. It is important for there to be room to debate how we should respond to those challenges, so I was delighted that the hon. Lady secured this debate.
Let me begin by dealing with the macro-economic context. The Government aim to achieve sustainable long-term economic growth to ensure that we rebalance the economy both geographically and in terms of business sectors. First, that means keeping interest rates low for longer and tackling the public sector deficit, which will be a continuing drag on capacity for growth unless we sort it out. Secondly, we need to invest in emerging technologies—the hon. Lady talked about the importance of renewable energy as a developing, emerging sector—but not rely on consumption to rebuild growth. We should be promoting innovation throughout the country, not just in the south-east, and also focusing—she mentioned UK Trade & Investment—on export potential and looking at what the regions that she and others who have spoken today represent can do to develop that potential.
Barnsley has a proud industrial heritage. Today, there are a number of key businesses in the borough, including the online fashion retailer ASOS and Fosters Bakery, to which the hon. Lady referred. Barnsley is making real progress in its transition from traditional coal mining and glass making to developing opportunities in new industries such as low-carbon, creative and the digital sectors. There are working environments for companies of all shapes and sizes, including the Digital Media Centre for creative and digital businesses; the Barnsley Business and Innovation Centre, which is spread over two sites and caters for a wide range of businesses; and a number of business centres and a broad range of industrial sites. Areas of Barnsley are also part of the enterprise zone within the Sheffield city region—I understand that it does not cover the town centre, but it does cover part of the council area.
The Enterprising Barnsley programme has helped to create more than 600 jobs and has protected almost 400 jobs since it was set up in 2009. By providing coaching support to companies it has supported 575 companies, which employ approximately 6,000 employees—nearly 10% of the borough’s total work force. Zebra Steel Fabrications, which makes architectural metalwork, has won several contracts in London close to the Olympic village site. AVQ Water Solutions has won contracts with South West Water that have enabled it to expand into new premises. Turnover is expected to increase threefold this year—a real local success story, which we should celebrate.
The “I Know I Can Barnsley Big Challenge 2011-12” competition is a borough-wide initiative that encourages young people between the ages of 11 and 19 to set up their own business in a supported environment, with the chance of receiving an initial £25 loan from a local entrepreneur, plus ongoing support, to help them develop their business idea to make money and to compete with other businesses for top honours. We should be encouraging those youngsters to become the entrepreneurs of the future. The hon. Lady was right to talk about the need to develop, in places such as Barnsley, a vibrant, diverse local economy—I think she used those words—and that depends on entrepreneurs coming through in future. Schemes such as that one should be applauded.
Barnsley market is important locally. I understand that negotiations are under way for the council to acquire the site so that regeneration can take place. It is important that that matter is concluded.
In terms of local growth, as a Government we recognise the need to enable areas like Barnsley to grow by providing the right framework, based on real, local economic areas. That is why we invited local businesses and civic leaders to establish their own local enterprise partnerships to help remove the barriers to local growth. The hon. Lady mentioned the importance of Government driving growth in places such as Barnsley, but there has to be a partnership. The Government have a critical role to play in setting the framework, but in a sense this Government’s approach is to enable and give the capacity to local areas to rebuild their economies themselves, with support from government. That is the right approach to take. This model is designed to give back to local communities a much greater say in their economic future, not least by bringing business and civic leaders together in a shared partnership.
The LEPs are leading the development of the 24 new enterprise zones, which will not only accelerate the creation of new business opportunities and jobs. The additional business rate revenue generated by enterprise zones will be retained locally to be spent across the whole area of an LEP, as it sees fit. We are working with LEPs that have a zone on additional options to suit local circumstances. We have agreed enhanced capital allowances for plant and machinery where there is a strong local focus on manufacturing, in areas such as Barnsley, for example, including for sites within the Sheffield city region enterprise zone. We are also working on tax-increment finance to boost the long-term viability of the area, as well as on support from UKTI for inward investment or trade opportunities. Even Barnsley town centre, which is not part of the enterprise zone, can share in the wider benefits from the nearby enterprise zone that I mentioned.
Barnsley is especially well placed to benefit from our approach, because we recognise its location and have agreed that it should be a full member of both the Leeds and Sheffield city region LEPs. Sheffield city region is, for example, focusing on growth in advanced manufacturing and technology. The hon. Lady will be aware that the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre at the university of Sheffield was announced as one of seven partners in the Government’s first technology and innovation centres. This will focus on high-value manufacturing and includes partners of the calibre of Boeing and Rolls Royce. Sheffield city region is also looking to exploit the potential of creative, digital and low-carbon industries, which the hon. Lady mentioned, where there are real opportunities in Barnsley, such as the emerging eco-vision for the Dearne valley, which I understand is within the Sheffield enterprise zone.
The hon. Lady mentioned the feed-in tariffs court action that is under way. A genuine problem with the original design of the FIT scheme had to be resolved, but it is important that we do everything we can to promote the emergence of new technologies. The Government are already planning the green investment bank, which will help investment in renewable energies. There is, of course, also the green deal.
Angela Smith
I appreciate that the Government are establishing the green investment bank, which could be located in South Yorkshire if they were to really think about helping our local economy. The fundamental underlying point is that we still need demand in the economy if the local enterprise partnership is to deliver the success that the Minister is outlining as possible with these new arrangements.
What will the Government do to stimulate the demand that will feed the development and growth of new businesses in Barnsley?
Norman Lamb
In particular, export-led growth. There are enormous opportunities for companies in Barnsley and elsewhere to benefit from opportunities that have not, in the past, been properly exploited.
The hon. Lady mentioned funding opportunities. The Government’s approach to local economic development also includes several new funding streams in addition to the enterprise zone programme, including the regional growth fund and the growing places fund.
The regional growth fund is focused on creating private sector jobs—the sort of jobs that the hon. Lady mentioned in her introduction—which are so important for the future of Barnsley, which has in part, following the loss of the coal mining jobs, been over-reliant on public sector jobs. The first two rounds of the fund are well under way, with two thirds of projects from round one started, and a third of all projects are under way.
I challenge the hon. Lady’s view about the extent to which the RGF is leveraging private money. With roughly £6 of private money being unlocked for every £1 of public money spent, the regional growth fund is now starting to have a real impact and is expected to generate 325,000 jobs. That is an incredibly important contribution to rebuilding the economy. A sum of £1 million has been conditionally offered to a bid from Fosters Bakery to enable it to expand on to a site that will also house food innovation and an incubation centre, aiding wider growth. Road Tankers Northern, based in Barnsley, is set to benefit from the Leeds city region advanced manufacturing regional growth fund package. Things are happening in Barnsley as a result of the regional growth fund.
In the autumn statement we announced an additional £l billion for the regional growth fund for England, extending it into 2014-15 to provide ongoing support to grow the private sector. Details of the third round of the scheme will be announced shortly. Last year we announced the £500 million growing places fund investment to unblock stalled local infrastructure projects and stimulate further private sector investment.
I am pleased that local enterprise partnership allocations have now been confirmed. Sheffield city region will receive £12.5 million under this fund and Leeds city region will receive £24.5 million, and Barnsley will have access to both funds. That is important if we are going to unlock the potential for growth in the area.
Local areas are also making decisions on how to use their allocation, including by matching with other funding to create larger investment pots. I understand that initial expressions of interest have been submitted in Sheffield city region, with decisions on which projects to support in March. In Leeds city region a fund prospectus will be launched in the next weeks and the first successful projects will be confirmed in May or June. These are important developments to help in the Barnsley area.
The hon. Lady mentioned access to finance. There have been real problems for small businesses accessing the funding that they need. Project Merlin has led to increased lending to SMEs in this financial year compared with the last financial year, which is important. The British Banking Association has introduced a system that allows small businesses to appeal against decisions to turn down loan applications. Quite a significant percentage of those appeals are succeeding. I encourage small businesses, if they are turned down, to use the appeal system to challenge the decision that has been taken.
The Government are also doing what they can, through the enterprise finance guarantee, to facilitate additional bank lending to viable small and medium-sized businesses that lacked the security to secure a normal commercial loan. To date the fund has helped 14,700 businesses, underwriting more than £1.4 billion-worth of loans. But more needs to be done. The hon. Lady is right. The Independent Commission on Banking committee set out in its report last year:
“Local banks can provide a better quality of service to customers and hence our push for new entrants to the sector.”
That is an important initiative. This approach is proving successful, with Metro, Virgin and Silicon Valley banks all having recently entered the sector. There needs to be more competition in banking.
The Government share the hon. Lady’s desire to see Barnsley flourish, along with the rest of the country, which is why we are going all-out to create a business environment that will give companies the confidence to invest and grow. Local communities are being freed from central control so that they can help determine their own economic future.
Written Ministerial Statements
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Council for Science and Technology
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Willetts)
I would like to inform the House that today the Prime Minister has appointed Professor Dame Nancy Rothwell as the independent co-chair to the Council for Science and Technology (CST).
Professor Dame Nancy Rothwell is President and Vice Chancellor of the University of Manchester and was appointed to the CST as a member in June 2011.
The CST Is the UK Government’s top level advisory body on science and technology policy issues. It reports to the Prime Minister.
The appointment process was made in accordance with the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments’ code of practice for ministerial appointments to public bodies.
Full details of CST’s terms of reference and organisation can be found at http://www.bis.gov.uk/cst.
Strategic Export Licensing
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)
My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary announced to the House on 13 October 2011 the conclusions of his review of defence and security export policy in the light of events in the middle east and north Africa.
It concluded that there were no fundamental flaws with the UK strategic export licensing system. We share this view. However, the review did identify areas where our system could be further strengthened. To this end, he announced a package of proposals that included the introduction of a mechanism to allow the immediate suspension of pending licence applications to countries experiencing a sharp deterioration in security or stability, and a commitment to continue to work to improve public information on defence and security exports, including enhanced transparency of routine export licensing decisions and how we respond during a crisis.
We have worked closely in developing the suspension mechanism, and are pleased to report that this suspension mechanism is now in place. As a result of this change the Government have ensured that export licensing policy is now more responsive to rapidly changing circumstances overseas.
The new suspension mechanism will allow the Government to quickly suspend the processing of pending licence applications to countries experiencing a sharp deterioration in security or stability. Suspension will not be invoked automatically or lightly, but triggered for example when conflict or crisis conditions change the risk suddenly, or make conducting a proper risk assessment difficult. A case-by-case assessment of a particular situation will be necessary to determine whether a licensing suspension is appropriate.
Any decision to suspend will be taken by the Licensing Authority based on advice from relevant Government Departments and reporting from our diplomatic posts. Parliament, industry and the media will be informed of any suspension.
Suspension will be tailored to the circumstances in play and will not necessarily apply to all export licence applications to a country, but may instead be for applications for particular equipment (for example crowd control goods), or for applications for equipment going to a particular end-user.
If a decision to suspend is made, work on licence applications in the pipeline will be stopped and no further licences issued pending ministerial review. Once the suspension is lifted, applications will not be required to be resubmitted.
The Ministry of Defence will apply any licensing suspension decision to MOD Form 680 applications, for which it is the Government authority, and to the assessment against the consolidated criteria of gifting cases, which it co-ordinates on behalf of the Government.
Suspension will be lifted (or partially lifted) where the Licensing Authority considers it appropriate to do so.
Transparency is also crucial because confidence in the workings of the export licensing system needs to be shared by Parliament and by the public. The system should not just be working properly; it should also be seen to do so.
I am therefore announcing today a number of proposals to improve the transparency of the export licensing system. These proposals build on my right hon. Friend’s review, and we intend to seek the views of interested parties, including the representatives of exporters and non-governmental organisations, on how they will work.
The first proposal is to insert into all open export licences a provision requiring the exporter to report periodically on transactions undertaken under these licences. The Government will then publish this information.
The second proposal concerns information contained in standard export licence applications. Currently all such applications are made in confidence, which makes it difficult to make public any more information than is already disclosed in the Government’s annual and quarterly reports. The Export Control Organisation considers that certain additional information contained in licence applications could be made public without causing concern to exporters. I will explore ways of making this additional information public while protecting any sensitive material.
The third proposal is to appoint an independent person to scrutinise the operation of the Export Control Organisation’s licensing process. The role of this independent person would be to confirm that the process is indeed being followed correctly and report on their work.
In considering these proposals we intend to consult the various interested parties to reach an outcome which achieves the Government’s objective of increased transparency while at the same time imposing the minimum additional burden on exporters.
We will, simultaneously, be pursuing further changes to the strategic licensing system to make it more efficient and customer-focused, whilst maintaining the integrity of the process. Working together, my right hon. Friend and I remain committed to robust and effective national and global controls to help prevent exports that could undermine our own security or core values of human rights and democracy; to protect our security through strategic defence relationships; and to promote our prosperity by allowing British defence and security industries to operate effectively in the global defence market.
I intend to make a further announcement to Parliament, setting out the Government’s conclusions and plans for implementing any further changes, before the summer recess.
Public Service Pensions Uprating
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander)
Legislation governing public service pensions requires them to be increased annually by the same percentage as additional pensions (state earnings related pension and state second pension). Public service pensions will therefore be increased from 9 April 2012 by 5.2%, in line with the annual increase in the consumer prices index up to September 2011, except for those public service pensions which have been in payment for less than a year, which will receive a pro-rata increase.
Unlocking Growth in Cities
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Greg Clark)
On 8 December the Government launched “Unlocking Growth in Cities”, which set out the terms for a programme of city deals—binding agreements that enable cities to negotiate the devolution of the specific powers, resources and responsibilities required to meet locally-determined economic and social objectives. We have been clear that we are determined to work flexibly to promote growth, to encourage local initiative and willing to transfer significant powers to cities.
The Government have now considered the proposals brought forward by Liverpool for a “City Deal” in response to this challenge. The Government recognise it represents an ambitious economic package aimed at driving growth in Liverpool, and that it is an important part of the city’s response to Lord Heseltine and Sir Terry Leahy’s Rebalancing Britain report on the Liverpool economy.
I am therefore pleased to inform the House that the Government have approved the following proposals from Liverpool as a “City Deal”:
Subject to HM Treasury clearance of a business case and agreement with the local enterprise partnership, the Government will designate a new enterprise zone covering the city fringe buffer zone and central business district. The growth in business rates income from the enterprise zone will go to the Liverpool City Region Local Enterprise Partnership, in line with the Government’s wider enterprise zone policy and our ambition to see a city-region wide approach to growth and regeneration. The Government recognise that Liverpool has ambitious plans to develop five further priority economic development areas (proposed mayoral development zones) in the city, and their ambition to reinvest rates retained from this new enterprise zone within the city. Any retention of enterprise zone business rates by the city council will need to be negotiated between Liverpool and the local enterprise partnership.
The creation of what Liverpool proposes to term a Mayoral Investment Board that will oversee the city’s economic and housing strategy as well as oversight of the development of Home and Communities Agency land assets and other economic development priorities including those linked to the enterprise and proposed mayoral development zones. This arrangement will be based on the principle that the Home and Communities Agency will retain legal ownership and accountable body status for current Home and Communities Agency assets.
The Department for Work and Pensions will work with Liverpool to develop welfare pilots to deliver a localised programme of support for people leaving the work programme and in particular include a “youth contract” pathfinder. It is expected that this will improve the benefit claims experience for customers while making efficiency savings for both the city and the Department for Work and Pensions; increase the numbers of claimants moving into work; and reduce benefit fraud and error.
A secondary school investment plan funded by the council for up to 12 new-build secondary schools, including at least six new academies. These schools will be subject to the normal academy converter application process and once in place, the council will not be part of their ongoing governance or financial management. Liverpool has made clear its commitment to ensure that the schools in the city support the local skills agenda and the local economy. The Government therefore expect the council to be proactive and work with the schools, the private sector and the universities in Liverpool to help them develop specialisms and identify and attract appropriate sponsors.
The Government are prepared to support initiatives that boost economic growth and development. The Department for Communities and Local Government already supports economic development in local authorities and is therefore prepared to work closely with the city as Liverpool implements its vision for economic development. As part of that close working, the Department for Communities and Local Government will contribute £75 million over the remaining years of the spending review period, subject to a strong, robust business case, to be cleared by HM Treasury, demonstrating clear value for money.
The Government set out in “Unlocking Growth in Cities”, that where cities want to take on significant new powers and funding streams, they will need to demonstrate strong, accountable leadership, an ambitious agenda for the economic future of their area, effective decision-making structures, and private sector involvement and leadership. The appropriate governance structure may be different for each city, and no city deal is conditional on having any particular governance arrangement. However, the Government believe that directly elected mayors are one way of providing the strong, visible and accountable leadership so, subject to approval by the council, the Government can confirm that a move towards a directly elected mayor and the creation of a Mayoral Development Corporation would satisfy its requirements as regards governance arrangements to strengthen leadership and accountability in Liverpool City Council.
The Government place great importance on local enterprise partnerships to drive economic development, and therefore expect Liverpool to continue to work closely with the Liverpool City Region Local Enterprise Partnership and neighbouring authorities to ensure their support for this “City Deal” and to take it forward as well as future decentralisation packages covering the local enterprise partnership area.
Votes A Annual Estimate 2012-13
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond)
The Ministry of Defence Votes A estimate 2012-13, will be laid before the House on 8 February 2012 as HC 1735. This outlines the maximum numbers of personnel to be maintained for each service in the armed forces during financial year 2012-13.
These numbers do not constitute the trained requirement of the armed forces, which are published separately in the UK armed forces quarterly manning report.
Votes A Supplementary Estimate 2011-12
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond)
Ministry of Defence Votes A supplementary estimate 2011-12 will be laid before the House on 8 February 2012 as HC 1745. This outlines the increased maximum numbers of personnel to be maintained for service in the reserve naval and marines forces and the reserve land forces during financial year 2011-12.
These numbers do not constitute the trained requirement of the armed forces, which are published separately in the UK armed forces quarterly manning report.
Operation Herrick 16 Roulement
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond)
The next roulement of UK forces in Afghanistan is due to take place in April 2012. The UK’s current framework Brigade in Helmand, 20th Armoured Brigade, will be replaced by 12th Mechanized Brigade. The forces deploying include:
12th Mechanized Brigade Headquarters and Signal Squadron (228) |
Elements of 19th Light Brigade Headquarters |
Headquarters 102 Logistic Brigade |
The King’s Royal Hussars |
The Light Dragoons |
Elements of 1st Royal Tank Regiment |
Elements of The Royal Wessex Yeomanry |
19th Regiment Royal Artillery |
Elements of 5th Regiment Royal Artillery |
Elements of 12th Regiment Royal Artillery |
Elements of 16th Regiment Royal Artillery |
Elements of 32nd Regiment Royal Artillery |
Elements of 39th Regiment Royal Artillery |
Elements of 40th Regiment Royal Artillery |
26 Engineer Regiment |
Elements of The Royal Monmouthshire Royal Engineers (Militia) |
Elements of 21 Engineer Regiment |
Elements of 33 Engineer Regiment (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) |
Elements of 36 Engineer Regiment (Search) |
Elements of 38 Engineer Regiment |
Elements of 42 Engineer Regiment (Geographical) |
Elements of The Military Stabilisation and Support Group |
Elements of 170 (Infrastructure Support) Engineer Group |
16th Signal Regiment |
Elements of 10th Signal Regiment |
Elements of 14th Signal Regiment (Electronic Warfare) |
Elements of 21st Signal Regiment (Air Support) |
1st Battalion The Grenadier Guards |
1st Battalion The Welsh Guards |
1st Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment |
3rd Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment (Duke of Wellington’s Regiment) |
1st Battalion The Royal Welsh |
2nd Battalion The Royal Ghurkha Rifles |
3rd Battalion The Rifles |
Elements of The London Regiment |
Elements of 3rd Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment |
Elements of 4th Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment |
Elements of 6th Battalion The Rifles |
Elements of 3 Regiment Army Air Corps |
Elements of 4 Regiment Army Air Corps |
Elements of 6 Regiment Army Air Corps |
Elements of 9 Regiment Army Air Corps |
Elements of Joint Helicopter Support Squadron |
Elements of Allied Rapid Reaction Corps Support Battalion |
4 Logistic Support Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps |
10 The Queen’s Own Ghurkha Logistic Regiment |
Elements of 9 Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 11 Explosive Ordnance Disposal Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 17 Port and Maritime Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 23 Pioneer Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 24 Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 27 Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 29 Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 88 Postal and Courier Regiment (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 148 Expeditionary Force Institute Squadron (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 152 Transport Regiment (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 159 Supply Regiment (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 162 Movement Regiment (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 166 Supply Regiment (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of 151 Transport Regiment (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of the Catering Support Regiment (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps |
Elements of the Operational Headquarters Support Group (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps |
4th Medical Regiment |
22nd Field Hospital |
Elements of 254 Medical Regiment (Volunteers) |
4th Close Support Battalion Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers |
Elements of 104 Force Support Battalion Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers |
174 Provost Company Royal Military Police |
Elements of 160 Provost Company Royal Military Police |
Elements of Special Investigations Branch United Kingdom |
Elements of The Military Provost Staff |
Elements of 1st Military Working Dogs Regiment |
Elements of 1st Military Intelligence Battalion |
Elements of 2nd Military Intelligence Battalion |
Elements of 3rd Military Intelligence Battalion |
Elements of 4th Military Intelligence Battalion |
Elements of 5th Military Intelligence Battalion |
Elements of The Defence Cultural Specialist Unit |
Elements of 15 Psychological Operations Group |
604 Tactical Air Control Party |
614 Tactical Air Control Party |
621 Tactical Air Control Party |
632 Tactical Air Control Party |
2 (Army Co-Operation) Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 24 Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 30 Squadron, Royal Air Force |
12(B) Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 5 (Army Co-Operation) Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 32 Squadron Royal Air Force |
Elements of 28 Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 216 Squadron Royal Air Force |
Elements of 101 Squadron Royal Air Force |
Elements of 39 Squadron Royal Air Force |
Elements of 27 Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 18 Squadron, Royal Air Force |
617 Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 99 Squadron Royal Air Force |
Elements of 78 Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Number 5 Royal Air Force, Force Protection Wing Headquarters |
Elements of Number 2 Royal Air Force Police Wing |
Elements of Number 3 Royal Air Force Police Wing |
51 Squadron, Royal Air Force Regiment |
Elements of the Tactical Supply Wing, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 1 Air Mobility Wing, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 1 Air Control Centre, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 90 Signals Unit, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 2 (Mechanical Transport) Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 5001 Squadron, Royal Air Force |
Elements of 3 Mobile Catering Squadron |
Elements of Tactical Medical Wing |
Elements of 1 (Expeditionary Logistics) Squadron |
Elements of 93 (Expeditionary Armaments) Squadron |
Elements of Tactical Imagery Wing |
Elements of 5131 (BD) Sqn |
Volunteer and ex-regular members of the reserve forces will continue to deploy to Afghanistan as part of this integrated force package, and we expect to issue around 300 call-out notices. On completion of their mobilisation procedures, the reservists will undertake a period of training and, where applicable, integration with their respective receiving units. The majority will serve on operations for around six months. As part of this commitment, we expect up to six members of the sponsored reserves to be in theatre at any one time.
The UK’s conventional force level is expected to remain at 9,500 for the duration of the deployment.
I shall make a further statement on the units we expect to serve under 12th Mechanized Brigade’s planned replacement formation, 4th Mechanized Brigade, nearer the time of their deployment.
Sustainable Transport
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)
I am today announcing a £15 million growth package for cycling and walking measures across the country that will support economic growth and help to cut carbon, while promoting a healthier lifestyle.
The projects funded by this package support the key objectives of the £560 million local sustainable transport fund—building a strong economy and tackling carbon. This additional £15 million funding will be geared to supporting jobs, enhancing access to employment and supporting the end-to-end journey, helping to bring about changing patterns of travel behaviour and encouraging greater use of more sustainable transport modes.
The projects will be delivered to meet local demand and needs, and will be implemented through Sustrans and the Cycle Rail Working Group.
Sustrans will receive £8 million to create routes along the lines of their successful “Peoples’ Millions” Connect2 programme, further building on the Department’s investment in Links to Schools, which have seen the construction of safe, traffic free and traffic calmed routes for cyclists and pedestrians between schools and the national cycle network.
The Cycle Rail Working Group will receive £7 million to invest in improving integration between cycle and rail at stations across the country, including through improved cycle facilities at stations. This additional sum will complement other projects already being delivered by Network Rail, which are themselves delivering a £7 million programme of cycle facilities at stations and safe access routes to stations.
Further details of the projects to be taken forward will be announced by press notice, and deposited in the Libraries of both Houses, in March.
Health Select Committee Report on Public Health (Government Response)
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anne Milton)
Today we have laid before Parliament the Government’s response to the Health Select Committee report on public health (Cm 8290). The response summarises the Government’s plans to modernise the public health system, including giving local authorities a new leadership role in public health and the creation of an integrated public health body, Public Health England, to provide expert advice and support.
Copies of the Government’s response are available to hon. Members from the Vote Office and to noble Lords from the Printed Paper office.
House of Lords
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Libraries
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Sheldon
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to provide an efficient public library service.
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, DCMS Ministers have carried out a range of activities to oversee and promote a comprehensive and efficient library service. This includes writing to local authorities to set out ideas that they might consider to help continue successful public library services. Arts Council England has announced the libraries development initiative. This will look at new ways to enhance libraries’ success and relevance as vibrant local community hubs.
Lord Sheldon
The Minister has given a very useful Answer. Should we not get a comprehensive and efficient library service for the 21st century? Since libraries improve literacy, should library budgets normally not be cut? Should we not limit such closures?
Baroness Rawlings
The noble Lord, Lord Sheldon, is absolutely right. Of course we should have a comprehensive and efficient library service. However, the term “comprehensive and efficient” represents the balance to be struck by each local authority in meeting local needs within the context of available resources in a way that is appropriate to the identified needs of the community it serves. The 1964 Act does not seek to be overly prescriptive but instead anchors the delivery of the local service to the needs of the local community.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I should begin by declaring an interest as the cabinet member responsible for the public library service in the London Borough of Sutton where we are opening libraries, not closing any, but that was not my question. Does the Minister agree that the public library service is and should remain the responsibility of local authorities and that if we believe in local democracy, we must recognise that that includes the right to take decisions that some of us might think are wrong? Would the Minister further agree that the best solution is for local authorities to use their public libraries to further community engagement and accountability, and that libraries can do that very effectively if they are used properly?
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right, and I congratulate him on opening libraries. Various places around the country are opening libraries, despite some closures. My noble friend is right that decisions need to be taken locally. Every local authority in England is required to provide a comprehensive and efficient library service, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord Sheldon, and it is for each local authority to determine at the local level how much it spends on libraries and manages and delivers its services.
Lord Peston
Is the Minister aware of how much I approve of her use of the word “community” when we talk about libraries? I use the library in the City of Westminster. When you go to it, you get a marvellous sense of community from all the different people there, but fundamental to providing an efficient library service is people being able to get there. I can get there because I can still drive, but given that Westminster, the nearest library to me, has closed—in many other areas, lots of libraries have closed—when I cannot drive any more I will not be able to use my local library, and I am quite sure that lots of old people at present are unable to use their local library for the same reason. Surely the Government ought to take at least a bit of an interest in this, while leaving the power in the hands of local authorities.
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Peston, is not able to get to his library. He still can? Well, I am very pleased. Travelling to libraries is very important; I could not agree with him more. They should be in places where there is public transport to get there as much as possible.
Lord Laming
My Lords, the Minister has helpfully said how much libraries are changing to meet changing needs and to create new opportunities for reading and learning. Does she agree that the Government could do more to help libraries promote the changes that are taking place to improve access to people who hitherto have seen libraries as slightly alien territory?
Baroness Rawlings
The noble Lord is absolutely right. Promotion is necessary, and that is what our libraries development initiative is doing. On the subject of commercial partnerships, it says:
“This will consider how libraries can respond to increasing economic challenges in an innovative way, exploring diverse funding streams and the benefits of a resilient mixed economy”.
Lord Elton
My Lords, could my noble friend expand her reply to the noble Lord, Lord Peston, to touch on the subject of mobile libraries, which certainly are extremely useful in rural areas and could be developed in urban areas?
Baroness Rawlings
My noble friend Lord Elton has a very good idea and I am sure that the Secretary of State will look at that.
Lord Collins of Highbury
My Lords, on 16 August 2010, the Minister Ed Vaizey announced an ambitious change programme for libraries. The press release said:
“The Future Libraries Programme … aims to help the library service during the current challenging financial situation, with an ambition to ensure libraries play a central role for communities in the Big Society”.
Since then we have heard little from the Minister, although more than 10 per cent of libraries have closed and many communities are without access to a library. Will the Government take seriously their duty under the 1964 Act to ensure that local authorities meet their statutory duty to provide a comprehensive and efficient library service?
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, I know that the Minister Ed Vaizey takes this very seriously indeed and we have discussed it on very many occasions. It is absolutely right that there should not be many closures, but there will be diversification, and data about the library sector are published annually by the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy. Many local authorities are still developing and consulting on proposals, and consequently the overall picture is always changing.
The Countess of Mar
My Lords, may I recommend to the noble Baroness that she goes to Worcestershire to see its mobile library service? It also has a mobile computer service, which is absolutely excellent.
Baroness Rawlings
I will take the noble Baroness’s advice and try to get there. Thank you.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, is the Minister also aware that the University of Worcester is opening what will be the first integrated county and university library for the people and the students of that university in the centre of the city later this year, in an iconic building that is going to be admired across the continent?
Baroness Rawlings
I thank the noble Lord very much for that suggestion. I commend the city and university, and I hope that many other places will emulate them and use the initiative to follow suit. I thank him very much for telling your Lordships about it.
EU: Fiscal Compact Treaty
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Dykes
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they are making on discussions with European member states on the future legal basis for the European fiscal compact treaty.
The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)
My Lords, although the United Kingdom will not become a party to it, we have participated fully in discussions on the intergovernmental treaty on stability, co-ordination and governance in the economic and monetary union. The parties have set out their desire that its substance will be added to the EU treaties in the future. Any such addition to the EU treaties would need to have the agreement of all 27 members.
Lord Dykes
I thank my noble friend the Minister for the very substantial and indeed creative fence-mending by Her Majesty’s Government that has taken place since 9 December. Does he agree that although we are not yet members of the fiscal compact treaty, now that that has been successfully signed by all but two, it is our duty, as we stated before Christmas, to make sure that we help the eurozone authorities and the national leaders return the eurozone to its strength as a traditional international currency?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I am happy to confirm to my noble friend that of course this intergovernmental agreement, which goes to the heart of strengthening the fiscal arrangements within the eurozone, is a necessary but not sufficient part of what we hope to see with the eurozone returned to health. There are a number of other critical elements, including sorting out the immediate situation in Greece, getting the European banks’ capital positions where they need to be, and so on.
Lord Barnett
My Lords, will the noble Lord be advising the Government to be one of the 27 member states agreeing to a fiscal solution to the problem or will the Government take the view that, whatever happens in the short term, in the longer term it is perfectly impossible for a country like Greece in the state that it is in to be able to have the same exchange rate and interest rate as Germany? In those circumstances, will the Government be making arrangements and planning for something to happen that would not be helpful, because, as the Chancellor put it, it would be disastrous if the whole thing broke up? Is contagion a bigger problem than many of us expected it to be?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, it continues to be the Government’s wish that the eurozone holds together and makes the arrangements, some of which I outlined in my previous answer. As I have said in answer to previous questions from the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, the Government take all precautionary measures and look at all scenarios that there may be as this still very severe situation continues to unfold.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
Will the Minister have a shot at the question that I have given to two of his colleagues, which they have failed to answer so far, and state what objections the British Government have for the text of the intergovernmental agreement that will be signed at the end of this month?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I think that my noble friends Lord Howell and Lord Strathclyde have given very good answers to that question in the past and there is nothing I need to add.
Lord Howe of Aberavon
Will my noble friend take the opportunity of advising our right honourable friend the Prime Minister that in practical terms this is a setting in which the Prime Minister might be well judged to pay a little more respect to the advice of the Chancellor of the Exchequer than to that of the Foreign Secretary?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I do not think that it is for me to tell my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in any way where he should seek advice but I am sure that he seeks the advice of all his senior Cabinet colleagues.
Lord Liddle
My Lords, following on from the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, I recognise the concern of the Government that a caucus of eurozone member states should not compromise the integrity of the single market, but does the Minister agree that the best guardians of that integrity are the Commission and the Court? How does he expect them to act in that role if the Government keep saying that they are reserved about the position of the Commission and the Court in the treaties and there is a chorus of criticism from his own Back Benches in the House of Commons demanding that these institutions be kept out of any role?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, the first thing is to be clear that the intergovernmental agreement is explicit that it cannot encroach on the competences of the EU and that the signatories to the intergovernmental agreement must not take measures that in any way undermine the single market. That is set out in the preliminary recitals and in Article 2 of the treaty. It is principally a matter for the signatories to the treaty. We have made it clear that the Government have a number of concerns about elements of this inter- governmental agreement, one of which is the use of EU institutions. Some of the proposed uses of EU institutions in this intergovernmental agreement are already in the EU treaties and others are not. The Government will watch very carefully how this develops.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, in an earlier answer the Minister referred to the recapitalisation of the banks in the eurozone as a necessary step. What action does he think is available if those banks fall short of successful voluntary recapitalisation and is further action necessary at the EU level?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, now that there is a realistic assessment of what capital is required, there is a clear agreement on the timetables and methods for doing that and it is well within the capacity of the eurozone to do it. I do not think we should speculate on what happens if they fail to do it. The eurozone, its Governments and the European Central Bank have all the firepower necessary.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, Europe and the UK will be going nowhere unless competitiveness is restored to individual countries. Does the noble Lord agree that at the heart of any fiscal compact should be a policy of growth and investment? Even from our position in the wings of Europe, will the Government agree to ensure that such a policy is implemented, not least to help the many millions of young people who are now unemployed all over Europe?
Lord Sassoon
I very much agree with the sentiments of the noble Lord. The one part of them that I disagree with is that we are not sitting on the sidelines but are very much at the heart of the discussions about pro-growth policies and the completion of the single market.
Magna Carta
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Lea of Crondall
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to celebrate the 800th anniversary of the signing of the Magna Carta in June 2015.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, plans to celebrate the 800th anniversary of the signing of the Magna Carta in June 2015 are being co-ordinated by the Magna Carta Trust, an independent organisation chaired by Sir Robert Worcester. I am keeping in close contact with the trust and I hope that as many people as possible will join in the commemorative activities and events that are being planned for the run-up to 2015 and on the anniversary itself.
Lord Lea of Crondall
I thank the Minister for that reply. There are of course very special reasons to commemorate in this House what happened at Runnymede in June 1215 and, indeed, the evolution of our constitutional arrangements between the Lords and the Commons over many centuries since. Does the noble Lord agree that in addition to weighty documents being published and speeches being made, there could be something of a more popular nature? For example, the pageant that preceded the tournament in 1215 was itself preceded by a ceremonial exchange of hostages between England and Scotland. What does the noble Lord think about a replay of that? Other events might also intrude, such as an inconclusive outcome of the general election. In those circumstances, would one way forward be a series of ceremonial jousts between the parties in which the noble Lord himself might be called upon to participate?
Lord McNally
What excellent ideas. It is strange how the same thoughts go through our minds. Just as the noble Lord was speaking, I was looking at the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and thinking what a perfect hostage he would make in the circumstances. Not long ago, I went to a ceremony at Runnymede and pointed out something that may surprise some Members of this House in view of my views about reform—that at Runnymede, the Barons did very well.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, does my noble friend think that the Barons who look down upon us daily from their plinths above this Chamber would be best pleased if, a month after the next general election, they looked down upon a hybrid Assembly with a group of senators in it?
Lord McNally
Indeed. I am sure that the Barons would be as revolutionary in 2015 as they were in 1215, but I defer to my noble friend because, sometimes when listening to him, I think he must have been at Runnymede for the signing.
The Lord Bishop of Chichester
My Lords, the then Archbishop of Canterbury, Stephen Langton, played a decisive and formative role in the formulation of Magna Carta, and that was not the first or the last occasion in our history when the Church has, so to speak, helped to keep the feet of the powers-that-be to the fire in matters of constitutional freedoms. Will the Minister take the opportunity to acknowledge the continuing contribution that people of faith are still making today in defending human dignity that transcends temporary political arrangements, and will he further let us know whether he is prepared to advise the independent commission to which he referred to invite the Church of England to play a particular role in the 2015 celebrations?
Lord McNally
I would certainly hope so. As the right reverend Prelate pointed out, Archbishop Langton played an important part at that time. I shall draw the idea to Sir Bob Worcester’s attention. I believe that this is an opportunity for us to celebrate a significant part of our history. I know that historical purists will cavil at the importance of the Magna Carta, but I always remember Eleanor Roosevelt, when she published the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, saying that it was a Magna Carta for all mankind. Nobody needed to translate what she meant by that. Magna Carta carries a resonance that has come down to us through the ages.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
My Lords, may I invite the Minister graciously to disabuse himself and all others who fall prey to the misconception that Magna Carta was ever signed? It never was. As a charter, and as the name implies, it was sealed by the royal seal of King John, as the facsimile mounted in the Contents Lobby makes very clear. May I apologise for making such a pettifogging legal point?
Lord McNally
Not at all. I have long considered the noble Lord a master of the pettifogging legal point, but his question gives me the opportunity to put on the record, for noble Lords who want to get involved in the build-up to the Magna Carta celebrations, that my honourable friend Eleanor Laing in the other place is chairing an All-Party Magna Carta Group. I am sure that it would benefit from membership from this House.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, there has not been a question from the Liberal Democrat Benches.
Baroness Benjamin
Thank you, my Lords. A favourite expression often used by British citizens is, “It’s a free country”. Thankfully, so it is, but many are not aware that our freedoms are the greatest legacy of the Magna Carta. What are the Government doing to ensure that children and young people use and appreciate this precious gift of freedom with respect and responsibility? Perhaps they could do so by establishing an annual Magna Carta day to raise awareness and celebrating on the underused Parliament Square, as suggested by the Hansard Society.
Lord McNally
Again, I am delighted by the enthusiasm with which the House is approaching this and I shall feed that idea back to Sir Robert.
Lord Howarth of Newport
Will the Minister confirm that Clause 29 of Magna Carta, which enshrines the right to due process, remains part of the law of England and Wales, but that it is under attack by the Government? Would it not be seemly if the Government were to celebrate the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta by withdrawing Part 1 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, which removes legal aid from people on low incomes who are in dispute about their benefits entitlement or with their employer or with their landlord? If the Government should be less than gracious about this, will it not still be for the Barons to insist on the ancient constitutional principle that:
“To no man will we sell, or deny, or delay right or justice”?
Lord McNally
The noble Lord once again confirms that one should never take that final question.
Prisoners: Transport
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Smith of Basildon
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking regarding the safety and reliability of the arrangements for transporting prisoners following the two recent ambushes and escapes.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, the National Offender Management Service has taken immediate action to reinforce security procedures and staff have been instructed to ensure that these procedures are fully complied with.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am grateful to the noble Lord; that is a helpful Answer. There is a very good record on prison security, which is why these two armed ambushes and escapes are so shocking. The week before last the Minister confirmed to your Lordships’ House that,
“escape must be made impossible”—[Official Report, 24/1/12; col. WA 220]—
for Category A prisoners. The second prisoner who escaped had previously absconded from court, was sentenced for GBH in his absence, and was given an indeterminate sentence for public protection because of the seriousness of his crimes. I find it incredible that, despite all that, he was given a Category C prisoner status and deemed to be unlikely to escape. Will the Minister look into this, and can he make arrangements to assure himself that when prisoners are transported, the security category is double-checked or reassessed to minimise any risk to the public or to staff?
Lord McNally
My Lords, I appreciate the constructive nature of that question. I hope the noble Baroness will appreciate that a formal investigation is under way into the circumstances of both escapes, and the reports and recommendations will determine what further action may be required. A wider review is also under way into the procedures governing the escorting of prisoners outside of prisons, including the arrangements for transporting them. Her point about the categorisation of prisoners should, and I assume will be, part of that inquiry.
Baroness Sharples
Are the guards armed when they transport Category A prisoners?
Lord McNally
I cannot confirm that they are armed on all occasions, but there is an assessment of risk for Category A prisoners. The use of guns in one of these escapes is extremely worrying, but it does not happen every time. That is another thing that the inquiry will look into and report back on.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, the Minister mentioned that the National Offender Management Service was conducting what I presume is an internal, in-house inquiry into this. Can he tell us whether the Inspectorate of Prisons and the inspectorate of the security industry are also looking into it? Presumably there are wider impacts other than those on the purely internal workings of the National Offender Management Service.
Lord McNally
Yes, the inquiry will go far wider. As I said, the wider review which is under way will look at both the public and the private sectors. The review’s aim is not just to hold an inquest into what happened but to learn lessons that will be helpful in the future.
Lord Bach
My Lords, the House will be grateful to the Minister for his answers to this Question. Are the Government satisfied that all those with the responsibility—and it is a difficult responsibility—for transferring prisoners are trained to a high enough standard in all cases to perform their difficult task? Prison officers certainly are. Are the Government content that everyone else who has this responsibility is trained to a high enough standard, too?
Lord McNally
Yes, I think that I can give the noble Lord that assurance. Again, standards of training is one of the things that the inquiry will be looking at. This will of course vary because we are talking about a large number of movements throughout a year and many of them are a very low category indeed. Under successive Governments over the last 15 years, the actual number of successful break-outs or escapes in transit has made this very much an exception rather than the rule. That is a sign of the improvements in transportation facilities and the training of staff. The wider review will look at this. As I said, if lessons are to be learnt, we will learn them. There is also the prospect that, with a greater use of television to allow distance interviewing of prisoners, there will be less need to transport them.
Lord Campbell of Alloway
Is this really a question of training? Is it not a question of making appropriate provision in these special circumstances?
Lord McNally
Yes, my Lords, but the fleet for transporting prisoners has recently been updated, so there should be greater security in those circumstances. There is training of staff—prisoners are accompanied by staff—and an assessment is made in advance, particularly of the transportation of Category A prisoners. The investigation under way will look at what is in place and whether those procedures were followed and, if all the procedures that were in place were followed and yet a successful break was made, what lessons are to be learnt from that.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Wigley
“( ) The court when requesting a pre-sentence report must ask for a social history on the offender from the Probation Service.”
Lord Wigley
My Lords, in moving Amendment 175 I shall also speak to Amendment 176. I have been asked to do so by the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, who apologises that she cannot be present today. These amendments add new provisions to Clause 61 in respect of sentencing guidelines. I will endeavour to put across the points that the noble Baroness wished to make and to combine them with my own remarks.
Amendment 175 would place a duty on courts to ask for a social history of an offender from the probation service when it requests a pre-sentence report. I do not have a legal background, but this issue has been brought to my attention by colleagues who sit on the panel of the independent Parliamentary Inquiry into Stalking Law Reform, whose excellent report was published today. They say that such a provision would be welcome in ensuring that courts were made aware of the history of offending of a particular perpetrator. Sadly, many perpetrators of ongoing, unacceptable behaviour such as domestic violence and stalking are able to get away with it simply because a court examines only individual instances of their behaviour and does not take into account the cumulative effect that long-term patterns of behaviour can have on victims.
Similarly, many stalkers and rapists have multiple victims, which can sometimes go unnoticed if the pattern is not recognised. When we also consider that perpetrators of dangerous and obsessive offences such as stalking frequently have a highly manipulative personality and can persuade criminal justice professionals that they are simply misunderstood and deserve a second chance, it is clear that changes need to be introduced to counter this. All too often, that second chance allows the perpetrator to continue his harassment of victims, sometimes even resulting in those victims’ deaths.
The noble Baroness, Lady Gould, and I were assisted in preparing for this debate by Napo, the probation officers’ union, which has highlighted key case studies in the recent past where women have been subjected to harassment and stalking over a sustained period of time. In those cases, court reports have concentrated on the immediate offence, thus ignoring evidence that would be vital in determining the risk of reoffending.
I draw the attention of your Lordships' House to a case from the East Midlands in which a 44 year-old male was charged with breaching restraining orders three times, all resulting in community sentences. For the index offence on this occasion, he received a 12-month suspended supervision order. The stalking behaviour had been going on for five years, and there had been sporadic periods of harassment. At one time, the victim was reporting breaches daily. He was later convicted for assaults on a new partner, who also suffered harassment for a period after the break-up. He also participated in a domestic violence course in the community, but that was discontinued because of further breaches of restraining orders.
The probation officer believes that cases such as this are looked on as low-level domestic violence, yet have the potential to escalate quickly to serious violence and even to the death of women and children. She reports that in her area there is an increase in the number of men being convicted for a breach of restraining orders, but she thinks that they are not being dealt with effectively. Cases are not dealt with consistently even within probation areas. The harassment in this case has being going on sporadically for 20 years, and has been very intense in the past six years.
I have been given a dozen similar examples; the same common theme emerges from them all. Professional staff believe that short prison sentences do not allow them to develop and complete offender behavioural work to an extent that makes an impact, and that appropriate sentences must be developed and applied. In some instances, patterns of psychologically harmful behaviour have not been sufficiently recorded, meaning that the offenders in question were not treated. This is partly an issue of resources, since courts are under increasing pressure to settle for a fast delivery report, which means that there is not enough time to investigate previous behaviour. It seems only common sense that a court, prior to sentence, should be required to educate itself as to the history not only of a particular case but of a particular offender. Many lives will be saved if this provision can be accepted, and I therefore urge the Government to accept this amendment.
Amendment 176 would require courts, when handing down a sentence, to consider the effect of it on dependants. I know that in tabling this amendment the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, had in mind particularly the high instance of women who are incarcerated for relatively short periods, and the devastating effect this can have on their families. As was well documented in the 2007 report of the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, Women in the Penal System, the demographic fingerprint of women who enter the penal system is staggeringly different from that of men in the same system. Women prisoners are far more likely to be primary carers of young children, so the effect on families of a mother entering prison is far harsher than the effect of a father being incarcerated. Latest statistics show that 66 per cent of women prisoners have dependent children.
The Howard League estimates that more than 17,000 children in England and Wales were separated from their mothers in 2010 due to their mothers’ incarceration. Roughly 6,000 of these children were under five years old, a quite staggering figure of 33 per cent of them. Even more far reaching is the likely effect on single-mother families if a mother is put into prison, leaving the children to enter care. The Howard League estimates that only 5 per cent of female prisoners’ children remain in the family home once their mother is imprisoned, which contrasts with 90 per cent of male prisoners’ children. It is often said that prison is not the best answer when handing down sentences for women. On a practical level, Ministry of Justice statistics show that 54 per cent of women jailed are reconvicted within 12 months, rising to 64 per cent if the sentence was for less than a year.
Equally, however, many organisations argue that we should be more lenient, particularly when considering the common reasons that lead to women entering into crime in the first place. These include relationship problems and coercion by others. The conditions within prison aggravate underlying problems afflicting many women prisoners: 51 per cent have severe mental illness; 47 per cent have a major depressive disorder; 50 per cent have been subject to domestic violence, and 33 per cent to sexual abuse. Against this background, is it surprising that no less than 37 per cent of women prisoners have attempted suicide? Mental health problems are still far more prevalent among women in prison than men, and self-harm is a significant problem.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, my name is attached to the amendment. The points that my noble friend Lord Wigley has made on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, are a fine illustration of why the stalking report that was published this morning is so important and its contents are so relevant to the points that have been discussed here already.
It is crucial that the backgrounds of serious and repeat offenders are seriously considered before decisions are made. Judging by the list that Napo has sent to my noble friend, there are indeed many instances of short sentences where not only has no treatment been given but there has been no effective outcome at all. One can imagine that there will be repeat offenders. On that point, I stress that in the Midlands in particular no fewer than five of these very short sentences were illustrated.
I turn to the second point, which is even more crucial: the effect on dependants. The numbers of children who have been affected in this way over generations must be into the millions. Let us think of the cycle of deprivation and the way in which their behaviour is no doubt going to reflect the less than desirable behaviour of their parents in the past.
Women prisoners tend to believe, I think with some justification, that they are given harsher and longer sentences than male prisoners. I remember visiting a women’s prison and being interviewed as a “victim”, as it were. This prison had been set up with a marvellous two-pronged system whereby you had to learn both the techniques of how an interviewing system worked in a broadcasting station and how to do the interviewing. For many of these women, who had no confidence at all in their own ability, to have to ask those kinds of questions was a big challenge. They said that they reckoned that they had tougher sentences. When you consider that many of them would no doubt have been sent with drugs in them, put there by manipulative people from outside the country as well as inside, we need to take what they were saying very seriously. I hope that the Minister will respond favourably to this amendment.
Lord Clinton-Davis
I rarely disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, but I do on this occasion. I do not think that there is any evidence that women prisoners are dealt with more harshly than men. That is a point which should not have been made because it is irrelevant. In my experience as an advocate, quite the reverse is true.
On the amendments, I largely agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, has said, but they would not add very much to the present practice. The probation service always gives a social history—whatever that may mean—of the offender, and it goes into great depth. It also considers the effect of sentencing on dependants. Both those points, which are relevant for debate, are irrelevant as far as the law is concerned.
We have heard a great deal about stalking today. Stalking is a very serious offence and we ought to consider the report, but this is not the occasion to do so.
It is essential that whatever the probation officer has to say in a case is taken seriously and in my view, it invariably is. However, that goes to show that offenders must be represented if that provision is to take effect. All too often, the offender is not represented; by and large, it is important that the points which are made in the amendments are taken into account. So I urge that, wherever possible, the defendant is represented.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
I have some sympathy with Amendment 175. Listening to the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, I was taken back into the past. He said that probation reports go into great depth on the effects of sentencing on the offender. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, spoke about reports looking into the background of offenders. That used to be so, but in a serious case in which I was involved within the past 12 months, when a verdict by the jury of murder was reduced to manslaughter, I was shocked to discover that the probation service simply interviewed my client over a video link while he was in Belmarsh prison. He was given no notice; he was spoken to for about half an hour; and the ensuing report was simply a question of assessing the risk for the purposes of an indeterminate prison sentence.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
It was put before the court, and the request was made for an adjournment for a probation report to follow as it used to, with relatives being interviewed and the court being given some idea of the person’s background and some concept of why he could have committed the offence. However, I am very concerned that at the moment the pressure on the probation service is such that it is forced to take these shorthand approaches of video links with a person you have never met before, carried out by someone much younger who makes no attempt to look into the background. In my view, it is a denial of justice in the individual case.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, I seldom disagree with my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis. However, on this occasion I have heard accounts directly from individuals who have been the victims of stalking. One common thread appears throughout these accounts. Individual instances are taken into account but the severity and length of the offences that currently fall under “harassment” are not always fully taken into account. Even looking at the best case, what happens is that incidents may be looked at as a group or a collection.
Some of the victims of stalking have been victims of the same stalker for years. Like many other noble Lords, I have heard the woman who is conducting the campaign that has been set up on this subject. She is a former senior police officer who has said that repeatedly a joke is made when the woman first complains to the police. We need quite a large change in attitude. The joke that was referred to this morning on the radio was, “Don’t you feel flattered that somebody is attracted to you?”, when the victim went to the police.
On Amendment 176, spoken to in my noble friend’s absence by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, it is extremely important that we look at the circumstances of the offence. I cite repeated shoplifting as an example. In my experience, there are two different sorts of repeated shoplifting. There are people who go on shoplifting sprees, sometimes in groups, in order to resell goods for profit. There are other people who shoplift to get tins of baked beans for their children’s tea. The fact that it is a repeat offence should not necessarily mean that those children are deprived of their mother if there are other means of tackling the issue. I hope that the Minister will give a positive response to this set of circumstances in which women might be incarcerated and say that it is an example where, even though we may be dealing with different sums of money, funding projects that help give women self-esteem, and do not separate them from their families, is a more cost-effective and socially effective means of tackling many of the circumstances of these women.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
My Lords, I find myself very much in sympathy with the sentiments that lie behind both the amendments. I agree with everything that was put so clearly and in such a balanced way by my noble friend Lord Wigley.
In relation to Amendment 175, it could be said that one is dealing with two sets of reports from two different agencies. In so far as anything deals with the criminal history of the defendant, even though it may not be the subject of a conviction, it belongs to the area of antecedents and to the agencies responsible for those. In other words, a bare statement of conviction on a certain date giving the detail of the conviction but no more would be very inadequate if it did not give the sentencing court—whether it be a magistrates’ court or a Crown Court—the background which is so essential for it to decide an appropriate sentence.
Both the agencies concerned—the probation service and those who prepare antecedent reports—are heavily overstrained. That, it seems to me, is the real problem with which one is dealing. These people dearly wish to devote much more time and effort to the preparation of a report but are simply unable to do that due to the exigencies which exist.
Everything that has been said in relation to dependants by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and those who support the amendments is corroborated by what I have seen over the years as a solicitor, barrister and judge. There are two stages when a court has to consider whether or not to impose a custodial sentence. First, it has to decide whether the gravity of the offence in all the circumstances of the case brings it over the bar, as it were, to the point where a custodial sentence is appropriate. Having decided that, it then looks at all the other circumstances of the case. Very material to that consideration will be the situation of dependants. It may well be argued, therefore, that it is not necessary to have the amendment, but I urge the Government to take a different view as it would help to concentrate the mind of the sentencer in that direction.
Any wise sentencer—magistrate or judge—knowing that young children may have to go into care or be dealt with in some other way, will have to look at the totality of the situation, having decided that it is an appropriate case for custodial sentence. In other words, the sentencer has to ask whether the totality of the situation is such that the community and the interests of justice are best served by a person going to prison or avoiding prison in some way or other. It is not a question of what the person deserves because that is a narrow, tunnel-vision approach to the whole matter; it is a question of what is proper and just for society and all concerned. I am sure that it is a precept for the wise sentencing court—magistrate or judge—to ask for a full report from the care authority regarding what exactly will happen to children in the event of a custodial sentence being imposed.
Lord Faulks
My Lords, both these amendments are concerned to ensure that the court knows all that it needs to know before sentencing. In my experience as a recorder, the court would be acting very negligently indeed if it were to sentence a woman, or even a man, without knowing the effect of that on the dependants. That is the fundamental point usually made in mitigation. It is very much part of the picture that any sentencing tribunal would have to take into account. If for some reason an advocate or the probation service was not giving sufficient information about this, the court would ensure—by adjourning if necessary—that that information was available. Therefore, although I accept the points made about the necessity to take all these facts into account, these amendments are designed to tell the courts what to do. I respectfully submit that the courts know what to do.
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, I fully support the intentions of these amendments. I admired the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, but seek clarification from him. I have a question about feasibility and practicality. I am not sure whether it is intended that the requirements in these amendments should extend to magistrates’ courts as well as to the other courts. However, if one considers the circumstances in which the magistrates’ courts were operating last summer, following the riots, when they transacted an extraordinary volume of cases, worked under extreme pressure and sat until late at night, I wonder how realistic it is to lay upon those courts the requirements that these amendments would lay. I had misgivings about the magistrates’ courts working in that fashion but I recognise that what they did at that time was seen by the public as entirely appropriate in a situation of exceptional crisis. Perhaps what I am really saying is that there is no substitute for having enough courts that are sufficiently resourced and a probation service that is well enough resourced, and for the courts to do their work as far as possible screened from the pressures of the media and politics. However, that is a rather fanciful state of affairs to desire.
I therefore simply ask the noble Lord, whose purposes I thoroughly endorse, to explain, if he will, how he envisages these requirements actually working in practice when the courts are under severe pressure.
Lord Judd
My Lords, I must apologise for not having been in my place when the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, was moving his amendment; however, as I have put my name to the amendment, I hope that with the leave of the House I might make just two observations.
First, it has been said that it is not appropriate to tell the courts what to do because they know what to do. That is a fine sentiment in some ways, and I pay due respect to the sincere professionals who make the courts system work. The issue is whether the court has enough information in front of it to make a proper decision in view of the circumstances and consequences of what it may decide. The amendments are therefore dealing with a rather different point.
I also want to make this observation: of course, when the court has before it someone who is about to be sentenced, I am sure that there is a punishment to be made; but if we are sensible and rational beings, and the courts are working well, it is also essential right from that moment to be thinking about the rehabilitation of the individual so that they can become a positive citizen. That is why the quality and depth of the probation service’s report is crucial; otherwise, we slip into a sort of factory system of justice whereby there is an automatic response to a case. One has to try all the time to look at the individual and at how the sentence can be tailored to enable that citizen not only to be punished but to start the process of rehabilitation and join society as a responsible citizen.
If we are concerned about future crime, there is nothing more absurd and wasteful than not to take fully into account the implications for the dependants, because we may otherwise find that the court, by not having paid sufficient attention to the needs of the dependants, has inadvertently contributed to the next generation of offenders in that family.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, we on the opposition Benches support both amendments and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and his cosignatories on bringing them forward. I have not the slightest doubt that any court presided over by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, would not only know what to do but actually do it. However, that is not necessarily universally the case, and the Justice Select Committee in July 2008 raised concerns about the fact that pre-sentence reports were not requested frequently enough. It also raised doubts about the adequacy of those reports when they were presented; so there is clearly a problem in some courts some of the time, and it is sensible to make provision along the lines of both amendments.
An amendment precisely along the lines of the second amendment was moved in the Commons by Helen Goodman MP. It is surely essential for the courts to give due consideration to the effect of sentencing on dependants, not only from the point of view of those dependants but—given that we are necessarily talking about costs all the time—to avoid the costs that may arise from, for example, having to take children into care or the long-term damage that may be done to families, particularly but not exclusively in the context of mothers being sentenced to imprisonment.
The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, rightly referred to the fact that there is a high suicide rate among women prisoners. There is also an alarmingly high rate of self-harm. After all, one-third of women prisoners are single mothers; only 9 per cent of children with mothers who are serving custodial sentences are looked after by their father. That is not to say that there may not be other family members who take care of some children in those circumstances, but it is clearly a material factor.
It is of great concern that more than half of women prisoners suffer from severe mental illness, and half have suffered from domestic violence. They are clearly very damaged women. One might feel that children in that family are already vulnerable and exposed to risk. Notwithstanding the experience of my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis, it is clear that women are not treated in exactly the same way in sentencing, as a higher proportion of first-time offenders among women are sent to prison than men and a higher proportion of women are sentenced for non-violent offences—both significant differences. There is a problem about sentencing of women, and we will be considering that under later amendments. Bearing in mind the higher proportion of those women who have dependent children, the amendment is extremely timely.
The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, raised an issue about the practicality of the situation and cited the experience of last summer, with courts sentencing people to custodial sentences in the middle of the night. It may be that custodial sentences were required. The question arises whether it was necessary for those sentences to take immediate effect without proper inquiry into the background circumstances. I would argue that that was not necessary, whatever the ultimate sentence may have been.
My noble friend Lady Corston has reported extensively on the position of women prisoners. Her report will no doubt be touched on in conjunction with later amendments. The spirit of that report should surely inform the Government’s attitude to these two amendments, which we heartily commend.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, this has been an extremely useful debate and one that has not necessarily followed previous structures where the Minister sits there under fire from all parts of the House. It has been interesting to hear the various experiences, particularly of noble and learned Lords and their opinions on whether the amendments are necessary or add to present practice.
The Criminal Justice Act 2003 sets out when a court must or should request a report. Amendment 175 does not address those provisions, which relate to the duty to explain a sentence after it has been decided. A pre-sentence report is designed to inform the judge or magistrate before they decide on a sentence, while the clause relates to duties to explain the sentence that is being imposed.
Nevertheless, under the system now in place, a pre-sentence report to the court by the probation service sets out a recommendation for sentence based on the background and the risk posed by the offender. The report will set out any factors relevant to the offending. That will include a history of alcohol or drug dependency or any home life factors that might be relevant. That report is, in effect, what one would understand by the term “social history”. Of course, the court would also have in front of it a print-out of previous convictions and it would decide which of these were relevant to the case.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, looking at public expenditure, sending a woman to prison and putting her children into care is an extremely expensive option, but in many cases the resources are not available for the alternative treatment that I know speakers in this debate and other noble Lords regard as a preferable option. The problem is that those who have to deal with a particular incident or the result of a series of incidents often cannot use that judgment. It demands lateral thinking to transfer resources from one course of action to another.
Lord McNally
I could not agree more with the noble Baroness. That was very much the thrust of the Corston report and of what the Government are trying to do in carrying through their justice reforms, particularly in the treatment of women offenders.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
I am concerned about the instructions given to probation officers who carry out pre-sentence reports. Will my noble friend look into the matter before Report and find out in what circumstances it is acceptable for a probation officer to fashion a pre-sentence report based simply on a videolink and ticking boxes on a form on the other side? When is that permitted and what particular guidance is given to probation officers in those circumstances?
Lord McNally
One of the reasons why I am always at a disadvantage when dealing with my noble friend is because he usually has some recent case in which he has personally participated that proves the case he is making. I have noted what he said and will check whether that is regular practice. As I said, the Appeal Court has made it very clear that if reports are not asked for or are deficient, that in itself could be grounds for an appeal.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
Further to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, is it not the case—I will be grateful if I am wrong—that under the Criminal Justice Act 2003, there is a requirement on the court in all cases to have a probation report in writing, save when the court sees it entirely proper to relax that rule, but not when a person is under 18? There is one other exception that I cannot remember, but it is quite substantial. In other words, will the Minister look not just at the amendment but at the parent provision, as it were, in the 2003 Act?
Lord McNally
Certainly, but the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, makes my point. There are responsibilities already in previous legislation that make these amendments unnecessary. As always, I will check. I am sure that his memory is accurate, but if not I will write a correcting letter. In the mean time, with the offer of some talks on the amendment, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, will withdraw it.
Lord Dholakia
Will the Minister consider the possibility of a code of practice on how such reports are produced and give some guidance to the probation service so that this matter can be resolved without necessarily any recourse to legislation?
Lord McNally
That is an interesting and helpful intervention from my noble friend, which I will take away and consider.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, the Minister said in his opening remarks that he was in an unusual situation in that he was responding to a debate that had not overtly attacked the Government or him. I am in a novel situation as well, having had the Minister’s response. I thank everyone who has taken part in this short debate. It has been very worth while. I pay tribute to the work undertaken by my noble friend Lady Howe in this whole area, but particularly in the context of today’s report on stalking. I am very grateful for her comments.
The noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, has doubts about whether the amendments add very much to the law. The pressure that we have had as the tablers of these amendments has come from professional probation workers, who are at the sharp end and feel that a change is necessary. Whether that change is correctly encapsulated in these amendments may be another question. It may be that further guidance can be given to meet some of these points, but an issue certainly arises, otherwise there would not have been the wealth of examples. I could have quoted a dozen or more most moving examples that need the attention of Parliament.
Today’s report on the reform of the law on stalking by the independent parliamentary inquiry contains five recommendations that are directly relevant to the points covered by these amendments. I was grateful to the Minister for saying that he will give further thought to the amendments in the context of the debate we had last night as well as in that of the report, which add up to a need to give attention to this.
The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, gave a very graphic example from direct personal experience. Quite clearly there needs to be some guidance to avoid some of the dangers he outlined in the context of videolinking. Whether that can be done by law or needs to be done in other ways, it is not a satisfactory situation and I can well understand how he feels about it.
The noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, referred to the severity of events not always being properly taken into full account. I can well understand that. The severity, the incidence and the whole background need to be taken into account before proper judgments can be made.
My noble friend Lord Elystan-Morgan spoke from his immense experience as a judge and a barrister. He emphasised the need for previous history to be available in determining appropriate sentences. Quite clearly, the history is a guiding factor in determining what is or is not appropriate. On dependants, he emphasised the need for courts to consider the totality of the case and the implications that the sentence would have in that totality of circumstances.
The noble Lord, Lord Faulks, questioned whether the courts are neglecting their duties. I imagine that most courts strive in every way they can to undertake their duties and to meet the requirements but, as always, safety nets in law are necessary when there could be courts that fail to do so. I refer to the evidence that has been sent to us by those who are involved in detail on these questions. I am sure that the Minister will take these points on board.
The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, asked me whether the intention is that the amendment should apply to magistrates’ courts. It was the intention that it should apply to both Crown Courts and magistrates' courts, but if there are problems here, by all means let us have a look at them. There might be problems with the workload on the courts and the nature of the courts. That might raise the question of which court is most appropriate for some of these matters. These are questions that no doubt the Minister will be willing to consider.
I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, for being a supporter of these amendments. He referred to the need for rehabilitation and therefore for maximum information to be available to facilitate that purpose and minimise future crime. That must always be our objective.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for his support for these amendments from the Front Bench. He emphasised the degree of self-harm among women in prison. This must be very high in our minds as we address these questions.
I thank the Minister for his offer of discussions and further meetings to consider the implications of these amendments in the context of other developments. I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, will be delighted to accept that offer, and on that basis I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Abu Qatada
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement made earlier in another place by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. The Statement is as follows:
“Since December 2001, successive British Governments have sought to deport Abu Qatada to Jordan, his home country, because he poses a serious risk to our national security. Qatada has a long-standing association with al-Qaeda. British courts have found that:
‘His reach and the depth of influence … is formidable … He provides a religious justification for the act of violence and terror’.
In Jordan, he has been tried and found guilty in absentia of terrorism offences, including conspiracy to cause explosions at western and Israeli targets, and involvement in the bombings of the American School and the Jerusalem Hotel in Amman in 1998.
The House of Lords agreed with the Government that Qatada can be deported to Jordan to face a retrial because of the diplomatic assurances negotiated by Britain and the Jordanian Government. This agreement ensures that individuals deported to Jordan will not be tortured upon their return.
Despite the agreement of the House of Lords that Qatada should be deported, and despite accepting that he would not face mistreatment in Jordan, last month the European Court of Human Rights ruled against his deportation. It did so on the grounds that deportation would be in violation of Article 6 of the convention—the right to a fair trial—because of the risk that evidence obtained from the torture of others would be used against him. Honourable Members should be aware that this argument had already been considered by a British court, which rejected it.
I hardly need to tell the House that the Government disagree vehemently with Strasbourg’s ruling. We believe that Abu Qatada should be deported. We are considering all the legal options available, including whether to refer the case to the Grand Chamber. As we do so, we will continue to negotiate with the Jordanians to see what assurances we can be given about the evidence used against Qatada in their courts.
Following the Strasbourg ruling, Qatada’s lawyers appealed to the Special Immigration Appeals Commission for bail. We opposed that appeal vigorously, but yesterday it was granted, and will start within a week. The bail conditions are among the most stringent imposed on anybody facing deportation from the UK, and reflect the conditions set out when Qatada was bailed in 2008. He will be under a 22-hour curfew. He will not be allowed to access the internet or any electronic communication devices. He will not be allowed to travel outside an approved boundary. Visitors will need to be approved under very strict conditions. He will be subject to a specific condition preventing attendance at mosques and leading group prayer. If any of these conditions are breached, he will be rearrested and we will seek his immediate detention. But however strict the bail conditions, I continue to believe that Qatada should remain behind bars.
It simply is not acceptable that after guarantees from the Jordanians about his treatment, after British courts have found that he is dangerous and after his removal has been approved by the highest courts in our land, we still cannot deport a dangerous foreign national. We continue to consider the case for a British Bill of Rights, and the Prime Minister is leading the Government’s attempts to reform the European Court of Human Rights.
The right place for a terrorist is a prison cell and the right place for a foreign terrorist is a foreign prison cell, far away from Britain. That is why we will do everything we can within the existing legal regime to deport Qatada, and we are doing everything we can to reform that regime to avoid these cases in future”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Lord Rosser
I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made by the Home Secretary in the other place.
This judgment raises two questions for the House. First, what more are the Government doing to get Abu Qatada deported? Secondly, what are they doing to ensure the public are protected in the mean time?
The Minister has made clear the Government’s displeasure at and disagreement with the decision made by the Special Immigration Appeals Commission to free on bail the cleric Abu Qatada. The decision comes in the wake of a ruling by the European Court of Human Rights that Abu Qatada could not be deported to Jordan as he would face what was deemed to be a flagrant denial of justice since he could face a trial based on evidence obtained through torture. As the Minister said, that ruling overturned a decision by our Law Lords. Perhaps the Minister could say when the Government will decide on any form of appeal against the European court’s ruling.
Abu Qatada has been detained under immigration laws for the past six and a half years pending his deportation to Jordan. The bail conditions, which have now been set, are in line with those set in 2008 when he was released for a few months. They are substantial and include a 22-hour curfew. Does the Minister know whether it is true, as has been reported in at least one newspaper, that the Special Immigration Appeals Commission judge indicated that the conditions of bail would be relaxed after three months if there was what he—the judge—described as no “demonstrable progress” made with the Jordanians?
We share the Government’s position that Abu Qatada should be deported and should stand fair trial in Jordan. There is a need for the Government to pursue discussions with the Jordanian Government to make that possible. The Government, I know, are aware that before the election the British Government had reached agreement with Jordan on safeguards against the use of torture in order to make deportation possible. That agreement has been upheld and endorsed in our own courts. Clearly it is possible to make diplomatic progress. However, we need more evidence that the Government are straining every sinew to address the remaining issue that has now been raised by the court. Perhaps the Minister could say what discussions there have been with the Jordanian Government over the past 12 months on this issue of safeguards so that Abu Qatada can be deported without being put at risk of a trial based on evidence obtained through torture of others. Perhaps more significantly, what discussions are expected over the next three months, and how do the Government rate the prospects of bringing such discussions to a successful conclusion?
From the Minister’s words it would appear that the Government do not consider the bail conditions sufficient to address the issue of the threat to our security which Abu Qatada represents. Abu Qatada has never been charged in this country. Perhaps the Minister could say whether that is expected to remain the position or whether the issue is under consideration now or is likely to be if the bail conditions—and we know that Qatada has previously broken bail conditions—either continue because it is not possible to deport him or, if it is true, are relaxed after three months.
In addition to the 22-hour curfew, the bail conditions apparently involve no internet or electronic communication devices, no travel outside an approved boundary and restrictions on visitors. These requirements would appear to go beyond the conditions provided for under the Government’s revised weaker control orders, the TPIMs—conditions which the Government said would be sufficient to control and keep in check the activities of those who could not be charged but who were deemed to pose a serious threat of terrorist action.
Is it the Government’s view that the provisions in their new, weaker, revised control orders, the TPIMs, would be sufficient to control any threat posed by Abu Qatada, assuming that he is released on bail very shortly; or do they take the view that having been released on bail by the Special Immigration Appeals Commission, the more substantial bail conditions which have been set out by the judge are, indeed, all needed? If they are felt to be needed for Abu Qatada, why would they not also be needed for those constrained under the new, weaker control order regime that the Government have introduced, the TPIMs, which are time limited to a maximum of two years, provide only for an overnight residence requirement, provide access to the internet and telephones, and do not enable restrictions to be imposed on someone coming into London?
The Government cannot blame the European Court for their own decision to weaken British counterterrorism powers. We did, of course, urge the Government to keep the previous control order regime at least until after the Olympic Games. The Minister needs to spell out what action will be taken, including the possibility of any further legislation, and what safeguards will be introduced to minimise the risk to national security that the decision to grant bail to Abu Qatada represents both in the immediate future and later this year, at a time when our police and security forces are already going to be stretched to the limit with the Diamond Jubilee celebrations at their peak and the Olympic Games starting.
The courts, the security services and the Home Secretary have all made clear that Abu Qatada is a continuing threat to public safety and national security, and the Home Secretary and the Government should be straining every sinew to get him deported. If they cannot, the Home Secretary should make sure that we have the legislation and the safeguards in place to protect the public now.
Lord Henley
My Lords, again I repeat that we regret the decision of the SIAC court, just as we regret even more the earlier decision of the European Court of Human Rights. As I repeated towards the end of the Statement, those things need to be addressed in due course. The noble Lord then asked what we are doing to ensure that Qatada will in due course be deported. I assure him that we will do everything we can, in terms of the negotiations that have taken place and the negotiations that will take place, to make sure that we can deport him to Jordan, and that he will be entitled to a fair trial that is compliant under Article 6. We believe that the European Court of Human Rights got that wrong and that our own courts got it right in that what he was going to face was compliant under Article 6, but that is another matter which is for discussion on future occasions. We will continue to discuss it with the Jordanian Government and I hope that in due course my right honourable friend or myself or both of us will be able to let the House know how we are managing on that. But as regards a timescale, I cannot give the noble Lord one at this stage, and nor do I suspect he would expect to have one from me on this occasion.
The bail conditions are very severe; they are set out in the 1997 SIAC Act and the Immigration Act 1971. We are satisfied that they are appropriate for keeping him under control for the next three months, as is appropriate before we have to look at these matters again. The conditions are more severe than what is available under TPIMs. We discussed at length during the passage of the TPIMs Act the appropriate level of security that we and the security services need for keeping adequate control over dangerous people. I believe that we struck the right balance in reflecting not only the individual’s human rights but the security of this country. No doubt the noble Lord would like to use this one particular case to make a political football out of the matter. I think that that is regrettable and I hope that he will not follow that on this occasion. We believe that what we have in TPIMs is appropriate and adequate to deal with the threats that we are likely to face this year and in any subsequent year. We believe that what the previous Government set out was overly onerous and not appropriate to what is necessary to provide security for the individual.
I hope that I have given the noble Lord the appropriate assurances that he wanted on the more important questions. We will, as I said, exert every sinew to ensure that this very dangerous man, Abu Qatada, is deported from this country in due course, with proper respect for law and the support of the courts as is appropriate.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, may I remind the House of the benefit of short questions being put to the Minister so that he may answer as many as possible?
Lord Dubs
My Lords, is this not perhaps the most obvious example we have ever had of the fact that the use of intercept evidence in limited cases would enable an individual to be brought to trial in this country, found guilty and imprisoned without all the problems of the European Court of Human Rights apparently causing us difficulties? If the Government would only allow intercept evidence to be used in limited instances, we might be a lot further forward than we are now.
Lord Henley
Intercept evidence is a matter that we have debated in this House and in another place on a number of occasions. I have debated it from the opposite side of this House in a previous role as a justice spokesman, just as I have as a Minister on this side. It is a very difficult issue. The special committee of privy counsellors should continue to examine it and report to Ministers in due course. Being frank and honest with the noble Lord, I have changed my mind more than once on this issue. It is an issue on which it is very easy to flip-flop between the two sides. The advantages at times seem overwhelming, but one then discovers that the risks to one’s intelligence and the sourcing of evidence can be even greater. It is a difficult question and not one that I would want to answer in detail when repeating a Statement of this sort.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, the European Court of Human Rights has been reported as saying that our memorandum of understanding with Jordan is one of the best that it has ever seen. I do not know whether the Minister can comment on this, but if he can, can he tell the House whether it is capable of being extended to give the assurances that would be required? I hope that it is, because I speak as someone who—like the Minister, I am sure—is proud of a legal system that rejects evidence obtained by torture.
Lord Henley
My Lords, under no circumstances do we want to make use or encourage the use of evidence that has been obtained by torture. In that, I would agree with my noble friend. All I can say on the memorandum of understanding with the Jordanian Government is that we will continue to discuss this matter with the Jordanian authorities so that we can ensure that we can get the deportation of Qatada, but get it in such a manner that any trial he faces there will be compliant with Article 6, which is what we are seeking to do. We thought that that was what our courts—I think it was the House of Lords before the creation of the Supreme Court—had said was the case. For some reason known only to the European Court of Human Rights—but, then, one always has strange views about it—that court did not agree with us on this occasion.
Lord Morris of Aberavon
My Lords, I am sure that the whole House will agree that public safety must be paramount, and I am confident that Her Majesty's Government are doing their utmost in this situation. Did I understand from the Minister’s Statement that something was being done to avoid this kind of situation in the future? On appeals, did he indicate that we could appeal to the Grand Chamber? Would that be evidence-based, and would every ounce of effort be made to ensure that there is such evidence? Do I presume correctly that there is no appeal from the granting of bail?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I do not know the answer to that last question on the granting of bail, but the fact is that the court has granted him bail, and that is where we are at the moment. Yes, there is the possibility to appeal to the Grand Chamber. That is something that we are looking at, but I cannot go beyond saying that at the moment. If I hear anything more, I will certainly let the noble and learned Lord know in due course. The only other point from the Statement that I want to emphasise is that my right honourable friend made it quite clear, as has my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, that we will continue to look at the case for a British Bill of Rights, which we think is relevant in these matters, and for reforming the European Court of Human Rights. The Government are right to be taking the leading role in that.
Lord Faulks
The Minister has just said that the Government will attempt to reform the European Court of Human Rights. I know that there is great concern about, among other things, the backlog of cases and the insufficient margin of appreciation which ought to be delivered to national courts. Can the Minister help the House with how any such attempts to reform the court might avoid the very situation that we are confronted with now?
Lord Henley
I am afraid that my noble friend has probably asked me the hardest question of all, as to how we can deal with that problem and how it can solve our problems. Nevertheless, we want to make it clear that we think that it is right to look at reform of the ECHR. One of the reasons for that was given by my noble friend—that is, the backlog of cases that has built up there and the fact that the court seems to be involving itself in a whole number of relatively small cases that are not necessarily appropriate to it, particularly when one thinks of reforms brought through by the party opposite that have given us something known as the Supreme Court. It seems rather sad that, as soon as we have something called the Supreme Court, we have to announce that there is a court above it in the form of the European Court of Human Rights. As I said to my noble friend, finding a way to reform a court such as the European Court of Human Rights, which has of the order of 47 different members, will be a difficult job—but it is one that this country should continue to pursue.
Lord Blair of Boughton
My Lords, as somebody who, in a different role, has known of Abu Qatada’s case for nearly a decade, I fully understand the dilemma in which the Minister and the Government find themselves. The same dilemma has sat in front of us in different ways for 10 years. I will look forward and then ask the Minister a question. If we go forward three months and it has been impossible to reach an agreement with Jordan, I understand that we would then revert to the TPIMs process. One issue about that process, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, is that it can only be done once, for two years. So in two years and three months, Abu Qatada will be a free man under the current legislative arrangements. While not wanting to make one case into bad law, will the Minister refer this specific case to the reviewer of counterterrorist legislation to see whether that two-year rule is sustainable under these circumstances?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention, for all the experience that he brings to these matters, and for reminding the House, as I did in my Statement, that successive Governments have tried to get this man out of the country for over 10 years, since 2001. This and the previous Government have obviously faced some difficulties in that. The noble Lord talked about the future and mentioned that in three months these bail conditions are likely to expire unless we have got Abu Qatada out of the country—I sincerely hope we will have done—or he will be detained again for some other reason. The noble Lord then speculated that it might be that, after the three months expire, we find we have nothing else to use but TPIMs. As he said, that can only last two years and we would then be in some difficulty. He then rightly stressed the important point that one case might make bad law, and that the matter should be referred to the reviewer of counterterrorism. I can assure the noble Lord that the reviewer will examine this and its consequences. At the moment, we are satisfied that we will make some progress—I hope that we will—and will have a happier outcome to announce within the next three months.
Lord Judd
To follow the intervention by my noble friend Lord Dubs, this is obviously a problem that arises because of the inability to use intercept evidence in court. We all know that. It is a pressing issue because some of us in the House—I am sure I am not alone—would be deeply troubled if we went down the road that would tailor human rights to suit a flawed system of administering justice rather than ensuring that our system of justice was robust enough to handle such a desperate case. This is obviously an incredibly serious case. From that standpoint, it seems that the urgency is not simply to look at human rights in the European context but to look at our system of justice. If we have two systems of justice in operation resulting in the problem now before us, we must ensure that we have one system of European justice capable of dealing with terrorists of this kind.
Lord Henley
My Lords, I am not sure that I would go as far as the noble Lord in saying that we have two systems of justice. We have our own justice but obviously we also have appeals from that to the European Court of Human Rights. His principal question was about intercept evidence. Again, I do not think I can take the noble Lord much further than I took the noble Lord, Lord Dubs. This is a very difficult issue. I appreciate that there are very strong views on either side. It is not a decision that any Government will make lightly. As I said, I have certainly changed my view on this more than once, and I think that others have. I know that my noble friend Lord Howard, who made earlier comments on this, confessed that he had changed his mind on intercept. The same is true of others. It is being looked at by a committee of Privy Counsellors, and we should wait for their decision.
Lord Swinfen
My Lords, as I understand it, the bail conditions will be personal to Abu Qatada. Will other people living in the same house be allowed mobile phones and devices that can connect to the internet? What is the position with visitors to the house? Will they be properly searched to ensure that no such devices are taken in?
Lord Henley
My Lords, we will ensure that no mobile phones are allowed into that house. That is my understanding, at least, and I will write to my noble friend if I have got it wrong. We will have very strict control over who goes into the house; they will go in only with the approval of the appropriate authorities and only when they have been properly searched. But we do not think it is right that Abu Qatada or other people in that house should have access to electronic devices or the internet that he might be able to use for his own purposes.
Lord Kilclooney
Does the Minister agree that the difficulties in deporting this gentleman would not have arisen if he had not been in the country in the first place? Why do we offer an open door to such people to enter this country and become resident here, and were the particular circumstances of this man’s entry into the country investigated in the first place?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I do not know how and why Abu Qatada ever came into this country, but I will no doubt make inquiries for the noble Lord and let him know. Having said that, there are aspects of our policy of allowing asylum to certain people of which this country should be proud. I do not know whether that is how this particular gentleman, as the noble Lord described him, got in. It would have been better if he never had come in—I agree with the noble Lord on that—but I do not think that we necessarily want to pursue a policy whereby no one could come in at all. We want to have the appropriate strict controls; that is something that my right honourable friend has always made clear and some thing that we are tidying up after the mess of the past 15 years.
Lord King of Bridgwater
The last two questions indicate two major issues. One is that extremist preachers in this country have access to exceptional measures of communication that never previously existed and that have become available to many impressionable young people, creating an extremely dangerous situation. The point made by my noble friend of ensuring the total efficacy of the prohibition of access to those means of communication is very important. Secondly, although here we are dealing with Jordan, from which I understand acceptable undertakings have been given by a responsible Government, is it not increasingly the case that there are a huge number of countries of which it is easy for anybody arriving in this country to claim that they will be in danger if they are asked to return there? Finally—and this applies to this case alone—what might be the overall cost incurred by this country, with the number of people that we cannot remove who should properly be removed? Presumably, we are carrying costs that we carried for Abu Qatada while he was in jail—and presumably he is on benefit and carrying further costs as well.
Lord Henley
My Lords, my noble friend is right to point to the development of modern means of communications over the past 20 or 30 years and the advantages that they give to extremist preachers of this sort, which was never the case in the past. That is one reason why it is very important that we have very tight controls on what forms of communications will be available to Qatada in his house, with his family, when he is subject to bail.
My noble friend asked about other countries and rightly pointed to the problems of deporting individuals to a large number of countries throughout the world because of their human rights record. That is something that we are simply stuck with; there is not much that we can do about it, because of the nature of the countries that we are talking about and the nature of what goes on. Certainly, that imposes enormous costs on us. I cannot give my noble friend precise figures of the costs of Abu Qatada over the past 10 years. However, I think all noble Lords will be pretty sure that they must have been fairly large costs considering that he has spent some five years in prison and is now going to be living at home, presumably surviving on benefits of some sort, along with his wife and five children. The same was true beforehand and there are all the costs of supervision that my noble friend mentioned, which are also very great indeed. Yes, keeping the security of this country is not a cheap option.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Is it not clear that this man has made outrageous and bloodthirsty comments about a variety of circumstances, particularly concerning the Jewish community? Is there any evidence that those threats have been resiled from? If not, that is highly relevant in the circumstances which the Government have to consider.
Lord Henley
My Lords, I am not aware that those have been resiled from but I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, for emphasising the particularly nasty nature of this man and the sort of threats he has made, to Jewish people and to a great many others. That significant fact ought to be taken into account and I am grateful to the noble Lord for bringing it to the attention of the House.
Lord Empey
The Minister will be aware that there is widespread dismay throughout the country at the course of events, because our own Government and courts look powerless in our own country. Can the Minister advise the House whether any other Government have approached Her Majesty's Government seeking the extradition of this person? I understand that other Governments were interested in him. Is it not also the case that Her Majesty's Government have a duty of care for the security and well-being of the British people? How is that to be exercised and how is it consistent with the release of this individual, who has already been described both by Governments of different colours and by the courts as exceedingly dangerous?
Lord Henley
My Lords, he is to be released but he is to be subject to particularly severe bail conditions, which over the next three months will protect the country. However, the noble Lord, Lord Empey, is quite right to refer to the widespread dismay that many people have felt at the decisions of the courts, particularly that earlier decision by the European Court of Human Rights. If it had not decided as it did on that occasion, by now Abu Qatada would be back in Jordan and facing the trial that he properly ought to be facing in that country.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
(12 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord McNally
“Sentencing where there is aggravation related to transgender identity
(1) The Criminal Justice Act 2003 is amended as follows.
(2) Section 146 (increase in sentence for aggravation related to disability or sexual orientation) is amended as follows.
(3) In the heading, for “or sexual orientation” substitute “, sexual orientation or transgender identity”.
(4) In subsection (2)(a)—
(a) after sub-paragraph (i) omit “or”;(b) at the end insert—“(iii) the victim being (or being presumed to be) transgender, or”.(5) In subsection (2)(b)—
(a) after sub-paragraph (i) omit “or”;(b) at the end insert “, or(iii) by hostility towards persons who are transgender.”(6) After subsection (5) insert—
“(6) In this section references to being transgender include references to being transsexual, or undergoing, proposing to undergo or having undergone a process or part of a process of gender reassignment.”
(7) Schedule 21 (determination of minimum term in relation to mandatory life sentence) is amended as follows.
(8) For paragraph 3 substitute—
“3 For the purposes of this Schedule—
(a) an offence is aggravated by sexual orientation if it is committed in circumstances mentioned in section 146(2)(a)(i) or (b)(i);(b) an offence is aggravated by disability if it is committed in circumstances mentioned in section 146(2)(a)(ii) or (b)(ii);(c) an offence is aggravated by transgender identity if it is committed in circumstances mentioned in section 146(2)(a)(iii) or (b)(iii).”(9) In paragraph 5(2)(g) (30 year starting point), after “aggravated by sexual orientation” insert “, disability or transgender identity”.
(10) Section 241 of the Armed Forces Act 2006 (increase in sentence for aggravation related to disability or sexual orientation) is amended as follows.
(11) In the heading, for “or sexual orientation” substitute “, sexual orientation or transgender identity”.
(12) In subsection (2)(a)—
(a) after sub-paragraph (i) omit “or”;(b) at the end insert— “(iii) the victim being (or being presumed to be) transgender, or”.(13) In subsection (2)(b)—
(a) after sub-paragraph (i) omit “or”;(b) at the end insert “, or(iii) by hostility towards persons who are transgender.”(14) After subsection (5) insert—
“(6) In this section references to being transgender include references to being transsexual, or undergoing, proposing to undergo or having undergone a process or part of a process of gender reassignment.””
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, Amendment 176ZZA deals with hate crime. Hate crime is abhorrent and the criminal justice system should be seen to treat it severely. We want to ensure that offenders should be in no doubt that they will face more serious penalties for this type of crime. The effect of this government amendment is to add “transgender identity” to Section 146 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, which provides for the sentence to be aggravated where the offender demonstrates hostility towards the victim on the basis of a specified personal characteristic. Currently, Section 146 applies to hostility based on the victim’s,
“sexual orientation (or presumed sexual orientation) … or … disability (or presumed disability)”.
Section 145 makes similar provision in relation to hostility based on the victim’s race or religion. In addition, the amendment adds references to transgender identity and disability to paragraph 5 of Schedule 21, so that murders aggravated on the basis of hostility towards the victim on those grounds will attract a 30-year starting point.
The amendments are straightforward but I should be clear that “transgender” is an umbrella term that includes, but is not restricted to, being transsexual. It will be for the courts to determine in individual cases whether or not the words or behaviour of the offender constitute hostility based on the victim’s transgender identity or presumed transgender identity.
The Government consider that all five monitored strands of hate crime should be treated equally under these particular provisions. This sends a strong message and should, I hope, give more confidence to victims in reporting these dreadful crimes. I beg to move.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, some of the saddest cases that I found in prisons when I was inspecting them were of people suffering from gender dysphoria, who were hoping to be able to change their gender while in prison. This imposed great difficulties on the prisons in which these people were because the facilities were not there to cope with them while they were going through that change. At the same time they faced considerable hostility; indeed, the hate crime that is mentioned in this amendment applies also to the attitude that other prisoners use towards these people in prison. If this is enacted as part of the Bill, will adjustments be made to prison regulations to allow action to be taken against those who show such hatred towards people suffering from gender dysphoria while in prison?
Lord Beecham
My Lords, it took the good Lord seven days to create heaven and earth and it has taken the noble Lord only a day longer in Committee to come up with something on which I can offer him the Opposition’s wholehearted congratulations. We are very pleased with the amendments, which cover two points: the alignment of the starting point of sentencing to cut across all the categories; and the inclusion of transgender people in the scope of the Bill.
Yesterday’s Guardian was a disturbing edition, showing that at the moment disabled people generally are being singled out for victimisation in society as a whole. I hope very much that the signal that today’s amendment gives will help to counter that disgraceful and worrying development. I congratulate the Minister again on bringing forward the amendments.
Lord McNally
My Lords, to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, I cannot imagine that actions such as he described are not already covered by prison regulations, but I will examine that and write on the matter.
“Awareness of sentencing options
The Lord Chancellor must make arrangements to ensure that each Probation Trust provides to all magistrates in the area for which it has responsibility—(a) information about all programmes and options for which it is responsible, and(b) opportunities to observe such programmes.”
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone
My Lords, the amendment would insert a new clause on the subject of awareness of sentencing options. The amendments in this group in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford come at the beginning of this very important section of the Bill for which we have been waiting, as has been pointed out, for some considerable time.
The proposed new clause would address the crucial issue of ensuring greater awareness of, and confidence in, the local programmes and provision available to magistrates when they make sentencing decisions. It would require that the Lord Chancellor should ensure that a process was established by which each probation trust liaised with its local court to inform it of the programmes that it provided and gave it opportunities to observe them. That would mean conveying the content and range of programmes, the options that were available and, importantly, their quality. It is all about communication, which informs and facilitates the decision-making processes of the court when it is sentencing. Of course, any discussion of individual sentencing decisions would in this context be entirely inappropriate and irrelevant. It is about the generality of provision and provides the statutory basis for effective communication between the magistracy and probation, which is in the interests of both and, of course, of the community.
I pay tribute to the Magistrates’ Association, whose chair, and particularly its policy officer Sally Dickinson, have worked with me in framing these amendments. They are wholeheartedly behind the objectives of these proposed new clauses, as indeed is the probation service through the Probation Chiefs Association. I am enormously encouraged by their support, which I hope will convey to the Government just how important those central agencies are in their support.
Most importantly, both proposed new clauses directly reflect the central argument of the Government’s Green Paper, which preceded the Bill—that too many people are in prison and that short prison sentences are largely ineffective and counterproductive, as evidenced by the high reoffending rates. Importantly, however, the evidence also shows that robust community-based sentences serve the purposes of justice and a safer society much more effectively because they provide targeted programmes and supervision, which result in greatly lower reoffending rates. The key to the increasing use of these sentences is the combination of understanding and, even more importantly, confidence in what is on offer. I believe that these proposals will be the way to achieve this.
The initiative that I chaired for seven years, Rethinking Crime and Punishment, which was funded by the Esmée Fairbairn Foundation—I declare an interest as a trustee—demonstrated this case unequivocally. We set up a series of visits around the country when magistrates and Crown Court judges visited the probation programmes provided in their patch. Not only were they deeply interested in what they saw but their confidence in the programmes was clearly greatly enhanced when they came together after these visits to discuss what they had seen and heard.
As a result of this work, it became absolutely clear to me that this level of working together is really important. I can say confidently that this feeling was shared by all the sentencers, including judges. Indeed, in the debriefings after the visits, the common response by many sentencers was very enthusiastic, and the phrase, “I had no idea it was like that”, was typical. While I was delighted to hear that, it demonstrated to me how little they knew about what alternatives were available to them; it made one wonder just how appropriate, given what was available, their decisions might have been from time to time. That should no longer be the case if we are successful in this amendment.
Probation’s role in providing effective alternatives to custody is key to the Government’s strategy of reducing the number of short prison sentences. The probation service is the agency with the closest working relationship with the courts in making this provision. Of course, we must bear in mind some of the shortcomings in that area where work has to be done.
Starting from providing the court’s pre-sentence report, the service is the prime provider of alternative programmes, working with offenders ranging from unpaid work to drug and alcohol programmes, domestic violence programmes, hostels and mental health provision, to name but a few. These are the sort of disposals that it can offer. The voluntary sector is of course an important provider and so, increasingly, is the private sector.
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone
You are my dear. I have my hero here, so I can say that. I had better go on before I make any more silly mistakes.
In fact, the average sentence from the magistrates’ courts is a brief and unconstructive 2.5 months, which came as a surprise to me. I ought to mention that in the Crown Courts the number of all those sentenced to immediate custody went up by 20 per cent last year, which was the highest for 11 years. The killer series of facts is that the National Audit Office estimated that the overall cost to the economy of reoffending by former short-sentence prisoners was between £7 billion and £10 billion in 2007-08; that while prisoners were actually in prison, it cost us an average of £39,500 per prisoner per year; and, amazingly, that the Crown Court process of imposing a prison sentence cost an additional £30,500. Imprisonment and subsequent reoffending comes at an enormous cost.
Here I must thank the Prison Reform Trust for publishing its Bromley Briefings Prison Factfile, which is a gold-mine of statistical information and the source of my figures—when I can get them straight. By contrast, court-ordered community sentences have been demonstrated by countless projects and schemes to be more effective in reducing offending by eight percentage points overall, but with many more really dramatic and successful outcomes all over the country. For example, an assessment of the prolific and other priority offender programme showed a 62 per cent reduction in reconviction rates after 17 months. I refer noble Lords to the booklet published by the Howard League for Penal Reform outlining the work and achievements of community-based programmes, including award-winning ones, the length and breadth of the country—all of which show equally impressive outcomes.
The Government have already invested in payment by results to reduce reoffending, and Social Finance is investing in social impact bonds to finance a programme in Peterborough prison that is in its early days. Such programmes have been generated, are happening and are growing all the time. We must buy into them.
What sentencers can see and learn when they visit programmes is that for many—probably most—people on a community order this is a much more challenging experience than a few months or weeks in prison. Programmes dealing with domestic violence, drug and alcohol addiction or mental health difficulties, to name but a few, require the person to face up to these issues—a really difficult thing to do—in ways that they will never be able to in prison because such programmes are simply not available to the short-term prisoner, but this is the way that people change their lives.
The proposed new clause in Amendment 176ZB requires that sentencers, when imposing sentences of six months or less, must state in open court why a prison sentence is more appropriate than a community sentence and draw where the threshold comes, so that people can understand what is going on and why the custody threshold has been reached. This, by implication, requires knowledge of the range of available options in the community, so that there is no doubt that the disposal is appropriate and just, and the decision can be clearly explained to the defendant.
There is a jingle in the sentencing business—that it is a roof, a relationship and a job that anyone needs as preconditions when coming out of prison, if they are to have a chance of staying out. Of course, those are the preconditions for most of us if we are to have happy and fulfilled lives. At a stroke, imprisonment can take that all away, making reoffending all too likely and condemning the family to a parallel sentence of its own. Community penalties mean that the three preconditions can stay in place and something constructive can come out of the experience for the offender, the family and the community. The court must explain why, in the light of all the evidence, the decision has been made and where the threshold comes, and give the options available to it. Justice will then have been done. I beg to move.
Lord Judd
My Lords, I am very glad to have been able to add my name to these amendments, and would like to say how much I admire the work of the noble Baroness. It is not simply the utterly sensible amendments that she brings to our deliberations, but all the work she does to follow up what she is arguing for in this House. Of course, that is a two-way process, because it also means that when we listen to her, we listen not just to the voice of theory but to the voice of experience and practical engagement. That is a special asset to have in our deliberations.
Punishment is the easy bit. Of course crime must be punished—there is no argument about that—but in a sane society in which reason prevails, the greater challenge is how lives are rebuilt and how, as I said in argument on a previous amendment, we can enable people to become positive citizens contributing to the well-being of society, as distinct from indulging in delinquent behaviour. That is the real challenge. If that is to be done well, it means that those individuals have to be looked at as individuals.
I remember talking to a chief superintendent of police who was just about to retire when I was president of the YMCA and he was a prominent and active member of the YMCA in Britain. It was a private conversation, so I hope that he will not mind my relaying what he said. He said: “You know, it is a very lonely moment when you are sentenced. Some people respond with more bravado, but the overwhelming majority at that moment feel very lonely. I have always felt that where we get it wrong in our penal policy is that that is the very moment when someone should be there at the elbow of the person concerned saying, ‘Isn’t this a terrible mess? How are we going to sort it out and try to make some sense of this situation?’”.
What the noble Baroness said was not only emotionally powerful—there is no harm in emotion of the kind she was displaying in her remarks today; it is very healthy, and the passion which she feels for these issues is a great challenge to us all—but so important. So many of the people with whom the penal system is dealing have not had proper relationships, have not had people who cared, have not had families able to cope with or relate to them in their situation. There is a desperate need, as I have said in other debates in this House, for someone to take the hand of the person concerned and walk with them through the experience back into full rehabilitation in society, back into the job to which the noble Baroness referred, which is so central.
If that is the case, if we are asking magistrates and others to function on our behalf to tackle those issues, it is imperative that we do everything we can to ensure that magistrates know of all the possibilities which can be considered for the individual in front of them. To have a limited range of possibilities, or not to be very much aware of the range of possibilities, is disastrous because it means that we are not taking seriously the issue of rehabilitation.
On the issue of short sentences, I remember on a visit to a prison—in fact, it has happened more than once in conversation with prison officers—the prison officers themselves saying what nonsense it was and asking: “What on earth are we expected to achieve with these young people? How on earth is this helping them? They are going through a more disruptive experience. They are being taken further away from society and the chance to start rebuilding their lives in detention. What are we doing? What are we expected to be administering on behalf of society?”. If it is a matter to be dealt with by some by awarding a short sentence, there must be other means available which are more constructive and intelligent.
I conclude what I want to say in support of the noble Baroness by repeating something which has been said in debates before but which it is not possible to repeat too often. On the door of every cell should be “Rehabilitation?”—with a question mark after it—because, if we are not achieving rehabilitation, what are we doing? We are losing an individual, and we are almost inevitably ensuring future costs for society not only in terms of reoffending but in terms of the cost of dealing with the consequences of that reoffending, with further spells in prison or whatever. I believe that in the whole culture of our penal system and in the culture of the professions that administer our penal system there should be a passionate commitment to achieving at all costs, wherever possible, the rehabilitation of offenders. That is why these amendments tabled by the noble Baroness are so right. They make economic and social sense, and I hope that they also make sense when we think about what the values of a decent and civilised society should be. I hope that we care about the individual.
This morning in my old constituency of Portsmouth, where Dickens was born, I attended a ceremony to mark his 200th birthday. During the service in the great St Mary’s Church in Portsmouth, which was part of the ceremony, I was startled to hear a piece by Dickens himself on the application of Christian values. I had not read it before, to my shame, but I commend it to Members of this House. With his social commitment and understanding, and his brilliance in setting out the issues with which society is confronted, as well as its responsibilities to put them right, Dickens speaks directly about the whole principle that, if we call ourselves Christians, we must commit ourselves to caring not simply for the victim—although of course the victim matters—but for the offender, with a commitment to enabling the offender to sort out his or her life.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, I, too, have added my name to the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater. At the outset, I echo the tributes paid to her by the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and at the same time I pay tribute to the noble Lord for the passion and compassion that he always brings to debates on these subjects.
On Amendment 176ZAA, I have long thought that the provision of sentences with prospectuses of what the prison and probation services can and cannot do for offenders would serve a very useful purpose for the whole of the management system, and therefore I should like to widen the amendment slightly to include the Prison Service. While the noble Baroness was speaking, I could not help reflecting that for the first 100 years of its existence the probation service worked very closely with the courts and the police. It is only in recent years that it has been made subordinate to prisons, and that, to my mind, has given the wrong emphasis.
Everything that the noble Baroness said about Rethinking Crime and Punishment I share, because I had the great privilege of being a member of the initiative’s steering group. I entirely endorse everything that she said about the place of the community sentence. However, perhaps I may refer to the prospectuses. First and most obviously, they tell sentencers what is or is not possible and how long that might take to be achieved, because there is no point in somebody embarking on a course which cannot be completed during the sentence.
Of course, there is a danger that, as a result, some sentencers might award sentences that are longer than normal in order to complete a behaviour programme. I believe that that is a fault in the right direction, not least because the present practice of awarding sentences that are too short for the completion of any meaningful remedial action is wasteful of both time and money. As a side-effect, the provision of such a practice might also encourage the adoption of what happens in some Scandinavian countries where, at the time of sentence, the sentencer lays down what course of programmes a prisoner has to complete during that sentence. If these are satisfactorily completed before the end of the period of the sentence, the governor of the prison can take the prisoner back to the sentencer and ask for earlier release on the grounds that the conditions laid down have been met. Prisoners can then be released on licence, which saves prison time, space and money.
The second side-effect would be to force the prison and probation services to cost and plan all their offending behaviour and other courses. Knowing how many courses and programmes are required to meet the need of sentencers would for the first time give some indication of the actual shortfall in the current provision. What is more, it would allow individual prisons to be made responsible for conducting certain courses in particular geographical areas rather than the current inefficient system in which individual governors are not bound to carry on from where their predecessors left off—remarkably, and expensively, they are left to decide how they will satisfy particular targets and performance indicators, which may have no relation to overall need and involve the cancellation of programmes initiated by their predecessors. In other words, knowing what has to be done and by when would at last allow some certainty and stability to be applied to the role of each and every prison. I do not want to say more, or to say more about short sentences, except to echo everything that the noble Baroness said. The figures prove how much cheaper community sentences are.
Actually, there is another side-effect because if it was accepted that community sentences were to be the norm—the default position—and the short sentence the opposite, improvements on the provision of the community sentence would be forced, in order to give the public confidence that that is worth while. That links with Amendment 176A because I believe that the prospectus of what can be done in those community sentences is just as important as what is done in custody.
Lord Woolf
It is with great diffidence that I seek to say a few words as almost everything that can be said on this subject has been said by the three very distinguished noble Lords who preceded me. This is ground that has been well trodden. I fear that the importance of the two amendments may not be appreciated for that reason and that it will be said, “Oh yes, we all know everything contained in the amendments and therefore we can do without them”. Perhaps I can rely on my experience in a different capacity to enable me to say that such an approach would be wrong.
For five years, at least, it was my responsibility to try and oversee the sentencing in the courts of England and Wales. We all knew that our sentencing was not working as well as it should. We were distracted from time to time by arguments about whether prison worked but that really was not the issue. The issue was: were we imposing sentences that would most likely result in the offender who was before the court not reoffending but instead, as a result of his previous offending and being brought before the court, setting himself or herself on a new road to live as a law-abiding member of the community? Every time that could be achieved—it was not easy to achieve—the community would receive protection that it would not otherwise receive. Every time that that was done, the public would be less in danger than if the course that was adopted was achieved.
That is particularly true in that difficult ground which lies between sentences that can properly take place in the community and those that cannot. There is a very simple way of approaching this. What every court that has to impose sentences involving deprivation of liberty should do is to impose a sentence that is no longer than it has to be. If it has to be a sentence of custody, then it should be as short as is appropriate. In the case of short sentences, any sentencer should have well in mind the real restrictions on what can be done by the Prison Service for those who are sentenced to a short sentence. In the great majority of cases, the position is clear: nothing positive can be achieved by a short sentence, other than to mark the nature of the offence. Magistrates and judges are faced again and again with a situation where they have tried to avoid sending an offender to custody, but his or her conduct has shown that the alternatives are just ignored. Then, with reluctance, the sentencer can, and should, in my judgment, impose, as a final resort, a sentence of imprisonment, as long as the sentencer bears in mind the need to keep that sentence as short as possible. Those are a minority of cases. They are not the cases that make up the statistics to which the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, referred. They cannot account for that number of people being given sentences that cannot achieve anything positive as the final deterrent.
I tried, and other senior judges tried, to inculcate within the magistrates and the judiciary the importance of keeping the number of prisoners serving short sentences to the minimum. I am bound to say that I never succeeded. Having listened to the speeches made in the course of this short debate, I think it would be marvellous if copies of Hansard containing them could be placed before each judge and magistrate. I am not going to suggest a further amendment to achieve that, but I want to underline that even though it is so well known that the effectiveness of short sentences is so limited, and even though it is so well known that the resources that are spent on short sentences are needed for community sentences, it does not happen. That means that these amendments could just make a difference. For that reason alone, I hope the Government will consider the amendments most seriously. I think it is appropriate to adopt them.
Lord Judd
Perhaps I might ask the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, a question. Does he agree that the villain of the piece is the sensationalist writing—if you can actually call it writing—in some of the populist press about penal matters? Does he also agree that we ignore at our cost the reality that even judges—if I may say so, with respect—are human beings, that magistrates living in the community are very much human beings, and that unfortunately there is a degree of intimidation to the effect that if they do what they believe is right in the circumstances they may be pilloried in a way that is going to be unpleasant for them and their families? Is it not time that we all got together and started confronting that element of the media and saying, “You are the very people who are exacerbating the issue of crime and misconduct in society by playing for short-term gains and completely misrepresenting the reality”?
Lord Woolf
I would be bold beyond my own abilities to be bold if I were to try to attribute responsibility between the various players in our society as a whole. I think that we all contribute to the present situation. Judges cannot hide behind the media; magistrates cannot hide behind the media; and I certainly would not have sought to shirk the responsibilities I had by hiding behind the media. Nothing would please me more than if the media could learn the wise lesson that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, was suggesting that they should learn.
The noble Lord is absolutely correct. Sentencing is a lonely business. When you are put under considerable pressure in trying to determine the right sentence, you try to put out of your mind what you read daily in the media, but sometimes it is a very difficult thing to do. But it can just make the difference that I have said is so important between taking the decision of imposing a short sentence and taking the much more sensible course of imposing a positive sentence—one of the sentences that the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, wants the courts to be aware of—which can so much better be imposed of service in the community.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede
My Lords, I had not intended to intervene in this debate but it has been so important that I felt that I really had to.
Some noble Lords may know that I sit as a magistrate so it is with some trepidation that I follow the noble and learned Lord. I sit as a very junior magistrate in central London and I sit on a probation liaison committee. That committee is of huge importance, both to me personally and to all my colleagues. Of course, we become aware of the sentencing options. It is a training event that happens regularly—it happens every Thursday as well as more substantial training events—and I and my colleagues regard it as extremely helpful to be brought up to date on a continuous basis with all the community sentence courses that are available.
I very much support the first amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater. It is of huge importance. It is particularly important that it is on a statutory basis because that will recognise the importance of that work in giving magistrates confidence in the community sentences so they can go ahead and issue them. That is an absolutely central point, about which I can talk from my own experience.
I also take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, about programmes sometimes being too long to fit in with the length of the community sentence. I have come across this issue several times. One needs to have a real faith and trust in the probation reports that one is given in order to come up, if you like, with the minimum time realistically to achieve the elements within those sentences. Again, that comes down to a question of professional trust between the different elements in any court.
Even though I agree with the general views on minimum sentences, I am rather less enthusiastic about the noble Baroness’s second amendment which concerns them. In my experience, some 90 to 95 per cent of the short-term sentences that I have given have been for people who have broken their community orders. I understand that that is not an attractive argument but that is the reality of my sentencing experience here in London. Of course we constantly look at the alternatives. No one wants to give short-term custodial sentences. I understand that they are very often ineffective, but the reality is that very often the people to whom one gives those sentences have already failed on their community orders.
Lord Woolf
My Lords, does the noble Lord not think that the amendment clearly covers that case? It allows a short sentence to be imposed when there is no other appropriate way of dealing with the offender. If you have imposed a sentence and the offender has not complied with it, surely that is a classic example of a situation where there is no other appropriate method of dealing with the offender. I say that with diffidence because I appreciate how difficult it is for magistrates to deal with the sort of offender the noble Lord has just described.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, is of course correct. Magistrates already give their reasons and say why it is so serious that only a custodial sentence will do. I was really addressing the speech made by the noble Baroness, a substantial part of which was against short sentences per se. I understand that the amendment does not make that point, but, because of her speech, I felt duty bound to point out that the reality is that we are very often sentencing for breaches of community orders. Nevertheless, this is an important debate and I am happy to support both amendments.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I defer to the huge wisdom and practical experience of all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. In particular, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, on the clarity with which she developed her arguments in respect of both amendments. Like her, I am indebted to the Prison Reform Trust for its briefing. I should say that I am a member of an advisory group on young offenders that is run by the Prison Reform Trust.
On the first amendment, clearly it would be helpful to everyone involved in the system for the maximum degree of information to be available to those who are charged with the responsibility of sentencing—and in so doing, to take advantage of the work of the Local Crime: Community Sentence initiative which is run by the Magistrates’ Association and the Probation Association and has been endorsed by the Lord Chief Justice. This is in part to assist magistrates in coming to their decisions, but also in part to ensure that the public are aware that community penalties can be and often are an effective alternative to imprisonment. But there is a feeling that, perhaps due to pressures on the probation service in particular, there has been a reduction in the degree to which the two are working together and communicating effectively in practice. It is no easy task to deal with the volume of cases that come before the courts, either from the standpoint of the probation service or, indeed, from that of the magistracy and those who provide advice to magistrates. This amendment certainly offers an opportunity to develop what has been good practice and ensure that it is spread more widely.
Lord Faulks
Although I accept the general points made by the noble Lord about the general undesirability of short sentences, does he accept that there are some cases where the clang of the prison door really is the only answer for repeated minor offences? Notwithstanding all the valuable points about how little can be achieved, something can sometimes be achieved in some circumstances by the very fact of incarceration.
Lord Beecham
I think that that is right, and indeed the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, said very much the same. It is quite possible, within the ambit of the amendment, to achieve that objective. There may well be cases where what some call the “short sharp shock” may work. I think it will work in probably only a relatively small number of cases, but the option should certainly be open.
As I say, I have some reservations about the second amendment, but I wholly endorse the first one. This is a matter that we need to continue to evaluate, but above all we need to ensure that the probation service in particular is given the resources that it needs to work with offenders so as to avoid not only the social and individual harm that is done but also the enormous cost to the public purse of reoffending, where the rates remain unduly high.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all those who have contributed to this debate. It has been an extremely useful one. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, for reminding us that this is the 200th birthday of Charles Dickens, who gave us the most well-known phrase about the law: “The law is an ass”. He also gave us the best example of the futility of litigation in Bleak House. Dickens was certainly not in awe of the law, and very few of his legal characters are particularly warm.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
I shall add that he was saying it in the context of a married woman, who had no separate identity in those days. She was regarded as a part of her husband.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
I do not know if my noble friend is agreeing with the proposition, but in these more enlightened days we would all agree that the law on that particular aspect was an ass.
Lord McNally
I live and learn. I shall make the point, though, that the phrase, “The law is an ass”, is used more widely than just in terms of the marital relations referred to by my noble friend Lord Thomas. But I digress.
Lord McNally
Yes, I started it, but in terms of the quality of the debate, to have a sitting magistrate and a former Lord Chief Justice along with everything in between reflects the range of the debate we have had. I can only say to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, that providing a copy of Hansard for every judge and magistrate would, in these straitened times, be beyond the Ministry of Justice. However, it is an interesting idea, and of course magistrates can now go online to read our words, so they should certainly do that.
Where I can follow the noble Lords, Lord Judd and Lord Ramsbotham, and others, is in paying tribute to my noble friend Lady Linklater. She invites the term “do-gooder”, and it is a proud badge to wear. She is a wise, realistic and practical do-gooder, and that is why I personally benefit from her advice, as does this House. I should also say that my own commitment to both the magistracy and the probation service is as strong as that of any Member of this House. I believe that both are very important parts of our criminal justice system.
I listened to what my noble friend said about the need for information to be shared between probation officers and magistrates and of course I agree that that is important. But coming back again to a comment made in our earlier debate, I am not convinced that this aim actually requires a legislative provision. I welcome and encourage the sharing of information by probation trusts with magistrates. This already happens in a number of ways. Some are formal and relate to individual cases. For example, when probation supplies a pre-sentence report, the probation staff will outline for the court the suitability of an offender for a particular programme or requirement and the availability of that programme in the local area. There are existing liaison arrangements at both national and local level. At national level, a forum meets quarterly, bringing sentencers, probation and Ministry of Justice officials together to allow for the sharing of information on the national picture.
I was interested to hear of the experience of noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, of local liaison meetings. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, will not mind me saying that, in private conversation, she has expressed the view that such local liaison meetings have fallen into disuse.
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone
Perhaps I could put the record straight. It is not that they have fallen into disuse, but that they are no longer common practice throughout the country. The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, is nodding his head. There are some areas where they are alive and well, and others, probably in the majority, where they are either very poor or non-existent.
Lord McNally
I am grateful for that clarification, because I think that such meetings are important. When we discussed this matter previously, it was suggested that a bar to the effectiveness of the meetings might be that magistrates who engage with the work of probation trusts are unable to claim expenses to attend liaison or other meetings with probation. I am happy to say that Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service is already looking at, and plans to consult on, some of these issues relating to magistrates’ expenses. I suggest that a better approach, working with the Magistrates’ Association, Bench chairs and the senior judiciary, would be to come to a practical solution rather than create more statutory requirements
There are arrangements for local liaison meetings, and I hope that what I have just said helps to plug some of the gaps that the noble Baroness just referred to. The arrangements are governed by a protocol issued by the senior presiding judge setting out the parameters for any discussions between magistrates and probation. A protocol exists because there is a need to ensure that there is no suggestion that sentencers have been influenced by probation priorities or resourcing decisions. The existing arrangements therefore allow for flexibility, with due propriety, as to what should be discussed.
I am not aware of any particular problems with probation trusts supplying information to the judiciary. If any noble Lords are aware of any problems, I would be grateful for details which I could follow up. I certainly think that magistrates should be encouraged to visit both prisons and probation regularly and not just as part of their initial training. I am not aware of any obstacle to them doing so. I do not therefore consider that there is any need for a new statutory duty on the Lord Chancellor to make arrangements for magistrates to visit.
Amendment 176ZB seeks to deal with the different issue of the use of short custodial sentences. The amendment would place a duty on courts to consider all alternatives before imposing a short custodial term. It would also require the court, if imposing a short custodial sentence, to explain why alternative sentences were not considered appropriate. I understand the intention behind the amendment. As the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, has argued, short custodial sentences can be less effective in tackling reoffending than community sentences. They can mean that an offender during their short time in prison loses their employment and accommodation, all of which is a hindrance to their rehabilitation.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
I do not quite follow my noble friend’s reasoned argumentation, because Amendment 176ZB, put forward by my noble friend Lady Linklater, does not prohibit short sentences but states that if a short sentence is imposed a court must give reasons. That seems in line with what the Minister was saying previously.
Lord McNally
That is why the amendment is not necessary. Since a number of noble Lords had referred to the damaging elements of short sentences, I thought that it was worth putting on the record that, as a lay man in all this, I have had pointed out to me by people with considerable experience areas where the short sentence is effective. I certainly acknowledge that my noble friend said as much in her introduction. Her amendment is not an attempt to prohibit short custodial sentences; rather it seeks to create a kind of presumption that a short custodial sentence will not be imposed unless the alternatives are considered and found to be inappropriate. Such a statutory provision already exists. Section 152 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 places restrictions on imposing discretionary custodial sentences. Section 152(2) sets out what is sometimes called the “custodial threshold”, the test that has to be met before a custodial sentence can be imposed:
“The court must not pass a custodial sentence unless it is of the opinion that the offence, or the combination of the offence and one or more offences associated with it, was so serious that neither a fine alone or a community sentence can be justified for the offence”.
That is the current situation. I suggest to my noble friend that the current requirement is stronger and more wide-ranging than that proposed in this amendment.
I welcome a reminder of the importance of imposing short custodial sentences in essence as a last resort. I see, as I have always done, the full importance of rehabilitation. However, I do not think that this amendment adds significantly to the current law. I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Lord Dholakia
My Lords, would the Minister seriously consider the suggestion by my noble friend Lady Linklater about the proper liaison between the probation service and the magistrate? I chair a commission by the Magistrates’ Association on the future of summary justice. Evidence has been taken from across the country. What comes out very clearly is the extent to which there is effectively good rapport where you have good liaison between the magistracy and the probation liaison committees or probation officers. But there are a number of areas within the country where that does not happen. Could the Minister establish in which areas magistrates’ courts have proper liaison? If that information does not exist, would he issue guidelines so that they can be recommended good practice for this continuous liaison, which is in the interests of both justice and the offender?
Lord McNally
If there is anybody I take even more notice of in these matters than my noble friend Lady Linklater, it is my noble friend Lord Dholakia. I will take away that suggestion. As I said, we are looking at the question of expenses in helping to grease the wheels of better liaison. If my noble friend’s suggestion is feasible, I am sure that we can take it forward. I will certainly take it away and think about it.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, I would be interested if the Minister could encourage the presiding judges of each circuit around the country to carry out an audit of what the situation is in their particular circuit. The presiding judges have a great deal of influence and control over the way that the judicial system works within their bailiwick. Requiring each presiding judge to be in charge of such an investigation is a better way to go about it than starting from the centre—from London—and working outward.
Lord McNally
I am not sure what my powers are in instructing, advising or making requests of presiding judges. I suspect that the present Lord Chief Justice might start breathing down my neck. I note what my noble friend has suggested and I will take that back to think about.
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this extraordinarily interesting and well informed debate, which is really important for how we will take things forward in future. I will whizz through some of the very helpful comments that were made.
The noble Lord, Lord Judd, is always very wise. He said such nice things about me that I could only cap them with my endless admiration for him. He pointed out how important the individual is—the hand held out to lead somebody out of a dark place where we have possibly stuck them. Sharing experiences is of unbelievable importance. I must get the Dickens quotation from him. I know exactly what he means about the press exacerbating the problems of crime.
The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is the voice of such wisdom and experience. The idea of a prospectus across the services is very good. Is it not interesting that we do not have such a thing? If sentences were linked to behavioural progress, that would make those kinds of targets meaningful instead of being independent of each other.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, is my hero. He said that he knew that sentencing was not working well when he was in charge. That showed great honesty and insight. Of course, we both agree that there are times when certain sentences, including custody, are the one appropriate disposal. We accept that. The idea that some of these arguments could make a difference is a wonderful and extraordinary thing. I hope that everybody heard the range of the arguments we have had today.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, for what he said. I am not sure that I entirely approve of the idea of using custody as the appropriate sanction for a breach. If a community sentence is not working, maybe the community sentence could be reviewed rather than saying, “This has not worked; we must go for breach”.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede
I certainly think that community sentences can be reviewed and beefed up in some way. We have very clear guidelines on that point. The only point I made was that the vast majority of short custodial sentences that I give are for breaches and maybe multiple breaches. That was my only point.
Lord McNally
My noble friend Lady Linklater was on the point about community sentences made by the noble Lords, Lord Ramsbotham and Lord Ponsonby. Probation staff can take back to court offenders who have made significant progress on their requirements in a community sentence. Provision in Clause 62 clarifies the position when community orders come to an end and requirements have been completed. It is already there for community sentences. As I said, we will also consult more on making community sentences effective.
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone
I thank my noble friend for that and for the clarification. It is very good news that that is being taken forward.
I listened to and heard what the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said on the importance of post-prison support. He suggested that the clang of the prison door might have some effect. I do not really believe that, and the evidence for it is not substantial enough to actually influence policy. I have gone into a cell and heard a prison door clang on me. Even when I have not—to my knowledge—done anything too terrible, that is unpleasant but I question whether it changes the lives of people who are probably already in a very bad place.
Finally, I respond to the Minister. I am not very happy with “do-gooder”, if he does not mind. I am glad that he is pro magistrates and probation. I reiterate that there are some places where liaison committees exist and work well. Yet, if the reality was that the provision was in place and working well, I would not be here, nor would the Magistrates’ Association, the Probation Service and all the others behind me. There is a real sense of a need to beef up and put on some statutory basis the provision that will facilitate this and make the things that we know we need to have in place happen properly. If it was adequate as it is, I would not be here; the fact is that there is a severe deficit in what we are trying to do to make this society a safer and better place, and to make the way we work with offenders more constructive, effective and cost-effective. The fact is that 67 per cent of people on short prison sentences reoffend—that is over two-thirds—and £7.1 billion a year is wasted on sustaining and dealing with the results of such offenders. That is a very important thing, which I hope that my noble friend the Minister will not forget.
Lord Carlile of Berriew
I apologise for not being here for the earlier part of the debate. Would my noble friend agree that one should insert an additional factor into the argument—that the vast majority of people who are sentenced to short terms of imprisonment have mental health issues? If we had a stronger community mental health sector, they should not be in custody; they should be in residential or community mental health care.
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone
I thank my noble friend for that, and regard it as very remiss of me for not having mentioned it earlier.
I have listened to what my noble friend Lord McNally said, and am delighted to hear that further investigations into certain things on the justice front, such as community sentences, are being taken forward. That will be very important. I will ponder what he has said until we return at Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Ramsbotham
“(c) omit sub-paragraph (c)”
Lord Ramsbotham
I shall be very brief. Sub-paragraph (1)(c) of Paragraph 9 of Schedule 8 to the Criminal Justice Act 2003, to which these two amendments refer, allows a court to sentence an offender to custody for breach of a community order even though the original sentence was non-imprisonable. Figures published in 2009 show that 3,996 people were received into prison for a breach of such a community sentence—
Lord Bach
This is an important point that the noble Lord is making, but I wonder whether he is right in saying that sub-paragraph (1)(c) refers to being in breach of a community order. It refers to a person who,
“has wilfully and persistently failed to comply”.
It is the difference between those two that is quite important here. I apologise for interrupting the noble Lord so early in what he has to say.
Lord Ramsbotham
I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bach. I am speaking about the breach, and I will come to my conclusion if I may. I am not talking about inconsiderable numbers. There is nothing meaningful that can be done in prison to prevent a person from breaching a community order, so what such people are doing merely exacerbates the main problem facing our prisons at considerable expense and to no good effect.
I am very conscious of the problems facing the magistrates. Those problems were very ably set out by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby. I refer particularly to the effects of this on the Prison Service ever since the 2003 Act and the increased numbers of people in prison merely for breaching a community order. I personally welcome the flexibility that Clause 63 allows, in that a court dealing with breaches now has new options of taking no action or fining. However, the clause does not provide enough protection for the Prison Service, which is why I am tabling the two amendments, deleting the sub-paragraph and inviting the Minister to consider that the powers to resentence someone to custody for breach should be awarded only if the original sentence was an imprisonable one. I beg to move.
Lord Bach
My Lords, in many of his amendments I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and I hope to do so later this evening, but on my understanding of his argument here I find it difficult to accept the amendment on behalf of the Opposition.
I shall make a general point. This is not a government amendment—but when there are government amendments dealing with a different Act, as in the case of this Bill, where we are amending the Criminal Justice Act 2003, Keeling schedules, which set out what the amended 2003 Act would look like if we passed this legislation, are incredibly helpful. Indeed, when we were in government, the opposition on all sides used to ask us where the Keeling schedules were—and they were often there. In this Bill, later on tonight or whenever we reach the 17th group, there are very helpful Keeling schedules in important government amendments. But they do not exist elsewhere, as far as I can see, although the Minister has been helpful in writing to noble Lords about government amendments. There is a value in having Keeling schedules in that the House can understand what is being amended.
The Criminal Justice Act 2003 states:
“If it is proved to the satisfaction of a magistrates' court before which an offender appears or is brought under paragraph 7 that he has failed without reasonable excuse to comply with any of the requirements of the community order, the court must deal with him in respect of the failure in any one of the following ways”.
The Bill changes that “must” to “may”. The following ways include,
“amending the terms of the community order so as to impose more onerous requirements”,
and,
“where the community order was made by a magistrates' court, by dealing with him, for the offence in respect of which the order was made, in any way in which the court could deal with him if he had just been convicted by it of the offence”.
I know that the noble Lord has no objection to those provisions, as amended by this Bill. It is sub-paragraph (1)(c) that his complaint is with. That sub-paragraph is not just about a breach. It refers to,
“where—
(i) the community order was made by a magistrates’ court,
(ii) the offence in respect of which the order was made was not an offence punishable by imprisonment”—
that is the noble Lord’s point. It goes on to refer to,
“(iii) the offender is aged 18 or over, and
(iv) the offender”—
and these are the crucial words—
“has wilfully and persistently failed to comply with the requirements of the order … by dealing with him, in respect of that offence, by imposing a sentence of imprisonment for a term not exceeding”,
six months.
Provided that the Bill reads “may” rather than “must”, I can see nothing wrong with that. The danger is that someone who is given a community service order for an offence for which there is no imprisonment can get away for ever in breaching community service orders to the extent that he wilfully and persistently fails to comply, and the court will never have the power to deprive that person of their liberty. I agree with the Minister’s point from earlier that if community orders are to succeed—we want them to succeed because they are vital—they must be, in the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, “robust” community orders. There must be something there, eventually, if someone wilfully and persistently fails to comply with them. It is not just a breach in sub-paragraph (1)(c), but a wilful and persistent failure to comply, which is a step beyond a breach. Clearly, it is more than one breach; one breach would not be enough. Two might be—three might well be. In those circumstances, my case—I may be wrong about this—is that if we agree to these amendments, the result would be that someone who was given a community order for an offence that was not in itself subject to imprisonment could never be sent to prison, however wilfully and persistently he failed to comply with it. On this issue, which I concede is not a major one, I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bach, for his support on this, the first group of amendments that I am dealing with on this Bill. That is extremely welcome. Maybe the issue to which he refers rather reflects upon the quantity of legislation that this House has dealt with over a number of years. I absolutely take his point about the need for clarity and for linking Bills one to another.
I will seek to clarify what we understand these two amendments would do and why we resist them. They would repeal some of the provisions giving powers to both magistrates’ courts and the Crown Court to deal with breach of a community order. The provisions that the amendments propose to repeal give the courts the power to imprison offenders for serious breach of community orders which have been imposed for offences which do not carry imprisonment. Noble Lords agree on that.
As it so happens, community orders cannot currently be imposed for offences which do not carry imprisonment, so these provisions may appear to be redundant and I can appreciate why the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, might have tabled these amendments. However, they were certainly needed in the past and it was only in 2008 that the community order stopped being available for non-imprisonable offences. Before then, a community sentence could be imposed for a non-imprisonable offence. When that happened, these provisions were the only way that a breach could be dealt with—by sending the offender to prison—so however serious the breach, there would have been no custodial disposal without these measures. As I have noted, since 2008 there has on the face of it been no further need for them to remain on the statute book because they are, in practice, no longer necessary.
However, it is not quite as straightforward as that, complex though that may seem. There is an unimplemented provision in Section 151 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 which, if it were commenced, would allow the courts to impose a community order on a persistent offender, in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Bach, has spelt out, who has at least three previous fines, even if the offence they committed was not serious enough to cross the community sentence threshold. If that provision in Section 151 were to be implemented, it would become possible once more for a community order to be imposed for an offence which did not carry imprisonment.
It follows that we would therefore need the provisions which the noble Lord’s amendments would repeal to ensure that a persistent offender who gets a community order because they have received at least three fines could be penalised by imprisonment in case of breach. Effectively, these two measures go together. While we retain the sentencing power, even if it is not in force, we also need the breach power. I should perhaps say that we have no intention at present to implement the sentencing power but, as I have explained, while this is still an option, we need the breach power against the possibility that it might happen in the future.
Lord Bach
I follow the noble Baroness’s argument, which she has made very clearly. Indeed, I was not aware that the law was changed in 2008 so that non-imprisonable offences could not receive a community order, but I see the noble Baroness's way around that. However, to describe it as a breach power seems to be wrong on the basis of how the 2003 Act is phrased. It refers to a person who,
“wilfully and persistently failed to comply”.
In one sense, that is about a breach but not a breach on one occasion. It is the court having to find that there has been a wilful and persistent failure to comply and I hate to see that lessened to a mere breach, if I may call it that.
Baroness Northover
I heard what the noble Lord said and was very interested in the points that he made. Perhaps it is best if I come back to him to clarify that point. In the mean time, I hope that after this incredibly clear explanation—
Lord Carlile of Berriew
My noble friend will recall that it was part of the vaunt of the coalition that the statute book would be tidied up so that there were far fewer redundant statutes. There are in fact hundreds and hundreds, possibly thousands, of redundant statutory provisions—I have a book of them upstairs by my desk. Given that this has not been brought into force now for nine years, in the spirit of clear statute-making would it not be better simply to repeal the original provision and, if the Government wished to have something like it in the future, to introduce that in a proper way in a Bill?
Baroness Northover
My Lords, that is exactly what I asked and I was assured that in fact the Government wanted to keep the possibility of this being implemented. We therefore need to make sure that it is, as it were, complete.
Lord Carlile of Berriew
My noble friend clearly did not understand what I was suggesting: that it is, to put it plainly, senseless to have something on the statute book nine years after it was enacted, with absolutely no intention of bringing it into force.
Lord Carlile of Berriew
No, this provision is from 2003 and it has not been brought into force for nine years. Is the right answer to this not to repeal the 2003 provision in question? If the Government then have some constructive suggestions for imposing imprisonment, if it be merited, on people who have been given a community sentence, why do we not start again with those provisions? In reality, my noble friend is not going to suggest for one moment that the Government will bring this redundant provision into force.
Baroness Northover
I assure my noble friend that in fact I understood him very clearly the first time. I asked, as this was introduced in 2003, changed in 2008 but not complete, why we would not seek to repeal it. However, I was told that the Government wish to retain this, in the possibility that it might be implemented—although with no intention of doing that at the moment. I fully support what he says about trying to rationalise legislation in all areas, and I worked very hard on the companies legislation, the first elements of which were finally rationalised relatively recently, after 100 years. I realise that these things can take a long time, but I take very much the point that legislation needs clarity. However, I hope that in this instance the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, will understand what I am arguing here and be willing to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Avebury
May I ask my noble friend what may be a naive question? If the provision to which this is attached has not been brought into force but the Government require it to remain on the statute book in case it is necessary at some future date, why is the provision that we are discussing not also subject to a statutory instrument to bring it into force at the same time?
Baroness Northover
In answer to my noble friend, I expect that it will be necessary that this is in legislation, whereas the implementing would not require further legislation. This is therefore a time to tidy up something which was left untidy.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that response and intrigued with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Bach. I am grateful to him for those and for the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. As I rather suspected, this simple amendment has disclosed that there is a need to examine the clarity of the legislation regarding breach, while absolutely accepting the problems faced by magistrates. I very deliberately did not include “wilfully and persistently” regarding a breach, because that was not what I was after. Wilful and persistent was covered deliberately by the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, in her contribution.
There is merit in doing this, though; as I said, we are talking about the sentences but we must also consider what is going to happen to the person who has committed the breach and what the impact will be on the prison service. In our overcrowded prisons, there are currently vast numbers of people serving sentences for a breach since the 2003 Act. It was a small number before but it has become large, and there is nothing meaningful that can be done with them. That really is a waste of time and money, accepting that the magistrates have to do something. This should be thought through, which I hope is what the Minister will take away from this short debate. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone
My Lords, Clauses 67 and 75 refer to the maximum extension of curfews from 12 hours to 16, and from a maximum period of six months to 12, the first of the two referring to adults and the second to children and young people. I have a particular concern over Clause 75, which refers to children, although there are issues common to both it and Clause 67, which, as I have just said, refers to adults.
The background to this is that curfews are one of the requirements of a community order where the offender is required to remain at a specified place for a specified period and is monitored by a tag that is administered by one of two private companies. The MoJ estimates that about 24,000 people are being electronically monitored at any one time, of whom it is estimated that—this is all I can say at this point—a significant proportion are children.
The application of a curfew can be used selectively by magistrates, who have the power to split the times across the day—for example, when children are coming out of school—or to prohibit an offender from a football match, from being out in the evenings or from being with a group of troublemaking friends. It therefore gives the court the opportunity to use the sanction in a selective and targeted way. As such, we support the current curfews as having a useful role in the armoury of the available sanctions, particularly for adults.
The official reason for these clauses and the extension of hours and months is to increase significantly the punitive element of the sanction, supposedly giving the public a sense of greater security and safety, and in the expectation that this would not restrict employment unduly. All of that I find unconvincing, particularly, as I said earlier, as punishment must also have a positive purpose.
The new propositions leave many questions unanswered about the need and whether any real added value is entailed that would justify such a draconian change or the potential difficulties or damage likely to be encountered on the way, and whether there is any evidence of how it is likely to reduce reoffending.
A curfew is sometimes described as a form of house arrest. The new provision could in theory allow a person on a curfew to leave home for up to only eight hours a day for a whole year. Does that sound possible or proportionate? I think not. We need to know more before such potentially draconian measures are adopted. Without such evidence, I urge the Minister to delete these clauses from the Bill.
Proportionality is part of our system of law. It is fundamental that we do not tinker with our criminal justice system simply to be more punitive or tough for its own sake. The Government argue that a more punitive order would serve as a suitable disposal as an alternative to custody for more serious offenders, but the Ministry of Justice has not yet produced any evidence that such a disproportionate sanction—a year-long sanction—would work, what offences it might be relevant for or whether magistrates would in fact use a longer curfew as part of a community sentence for those offenders whom they could currently sentence to custody. It is much more probable that, over time, the timescales of 12 hours and six months could slide up to 16 hours and 12 months, but either way the case has simply not been made. For adults, this is likely significantly to disrupt employment opportunities or caring responsibilities, and for those with drug and alcohol issues, maintaining treatment or support will become seriously more difficult. These are the people affected by Clause 65.
I turn to Clause 75, an identical clause that applies to children. As with adults, one of the problems is that comprehensive data on curfews are not available. However, a piece of work published by the Prison Reform Trust called Into the Breach—this might have been relevant to our earlier discussions—which looked at the enforcement of statutory orders in the youth justice system, found that in one YOT 23 per cent of orders were breached and the proportion for breach of curfews was 70 per cent. That was just one sample, but breach is the clearest evidence of whether any sanction has been succeeding, so it is important.
I understand that there are some unpublished data from an electronic monitoring provider showing that from a sample of 3,902 children fewer than 50 per cent completed their curfew without breaching and, of those who breached, three-quarters had been absent from the address that they were tagged to. Also, the longer the length of the curfew, the higher the breach—thus a curfew of up to 14 days had a compliance rate of 62 per cent, but that fell to 23 per cent for a curfew of 90 days or more. This seems to be enough to suggest that much more comprehensive evidence is needed before decisions are taken to extend a sanction that we know so little about.
What we know already is that children who get caught up in the criminal justice system are those who are already dealing with a range of deficits in their lives. Their home lives are often chaotic and their performance and attendance at school is often poor, many being excluded or at risk of exclusion and finding learning problematic. Gang life in these situations becomes more likely, while drugs and drink are available. Those children who are in hostels or some sort of independent living will find a curfew particularly difficult with no support at home.
Unsurprisingly, we know that where parents are actively involved in helping, children are more likely to succeed. That might mean keeping notes about meetings, getting the children up in the morning or having their friends over when they cannot go out. The problem with curfews is that, while they remain a useful short-term sanction for the courts, they are really difficult for children whose lives are already so difficult at home, when the reason they are on the streets in the first place is to avoid home. Equally tragic is when children who are in care on a voluntary accommodated order try to visit their own home and are breached because the address for their tag is the children’s home. What an irony. Curfews do not address difficulties such as why the children have offended or, more importantly, how to help them to stop. Curfews control their movements, but there is no automatic, external support along with the tag to comply with the curfew, or any proactive involvement from youth offending teams. This is a proposal which sets them up to fail—nothing more and nothing less. In accepting it, we would be failing our children.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, I put my name to the stand part debate for exactly the reasons that the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, has outlined. In his letter to us of 12 December, the Minister said that a curfew can be an effective tool in punishing offenders, preventing reoffending and giving respite to victims. At the same time, the National Audit Office said in a report that such curfews were a problem for employment and could pose real barriers to people finding work. That seems to be the antithesis of preventing reoffending through helping people to live purposeful lives.
I have two comments, one about Clause 67 and one about Clause 75. There is a particular problem with women who are disproportionately affected by such increases, especially if they have children. I cannot believe that this has been thought through.
The other people I am particularly concerned about are those with mental health problems. They certainly do not need to be locked up under virtual house arrest—they need the stimulus of company and everything that goes with it. Again, I do not think that extending such a curfew for a year would serve any useful purpose.
I will always remember visiting young offender institutions where the youngsters were locked up all day, and watching what happened when they were let out for an hour at about 6 pm. They were just like puppies, all over each other. The prison staff, who did not know how to handle this, called it assault. It was not—it was the letting off of the adolescent steam which is a normal part of growing up. Locking up youngsters who come from a dysfunctional family, living in a small number of rooms, surrounded by others, for 16 hours a day for a year, is not a civilised way of coping with the problem. It is punishment, punishment, punishment, to the exclusion of civilisation.
The present system, which has a 12-hour curfew lasting six months, is in many ways causing the problems which the National Audit Office has commented on. Therefore, an extension would make things worse. As the noble Baroness said, we are setting these people up to breach the curfew, and then all we will do is make the problem worse. So I beg the Minister seriously to consider this extension and preferably to omit these clauses from the Bill.
Baroness Stern
I support the proposal that the clauses should not stand part of the Bill and the comments of the previous two speakers. Liberty has sent me a very helpful brief which I will be using. I declare my interest as a trustee of the Civil Liberties Trust.
Liberty points out in its brief that the Green Paper which led to this Bill envisaged that if there were tougher community sentences, prison would be used less because those sentences would be used instead. This is indeed a worthy idea, but I point out to the Minister that it is supported by absolutely no evidence whatever. Making community sentences tougher instead of making them more positive, rehabilitative and socially useful, simply adds to the number of such sentences and leads to more failure and imprisonment.
On the extension of curfews, it is hard to envisage a beneficial effect on the normal life of a curfewed person. How can a curfewed person become interested in going to work or jobseeking? How can they become involved in caring for a relative or in some activity which will take them away from crime? A curfew is a very blunt instrument with very little penal value. Has thought been given to the effect on the rest of the family? What will the effect be on the other siblings who may be on the straight and narrow and have to spend all their time in the house with the one member of the family who has been deemed not to be on the straight and narrow? What will be the effect on the family if it is the father who has to stay at home for 16 hours for 12 months? That person may spend his time at home drinking, so what happens to his wife and children? These points apply especially to the impact of curfews on children. Surely this measure will be a real hindrance to normal teenage development. It is hard to envisage anything else.
What is the objective of these clauses in terms of ensuring a more effective criminal justice system? In the other place, the Minister said that they would give courts more flexibility. But the flexibility to increase a curfew from 12 hours to 16 or six months to 12 seems more like punitiveness. If it is to give an impression of toughness, I would counsel the Minister against this. The public will not register the difference between 12 and 16 hours and six and 12 months. As a result, more people will fail and the public will then say, “There you are—he should have gone to prison. These non-custodial sentences never work”.
Finally, it might also be worth bearing in mind the cost. These proposals come with a price tag. In terms of change, rehabilitation, giving up drugs and alcohol and developing a social conscience, they add nothing. There are many better ways of spending money.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I strongly endorse the proposal of the noble Baroness that both clauses should be deleted from the Bill and the criticisms of the clauses that she and other noble Lords have made. The noble Baroness, Lady Stern, has just referred to a statement made by the Prisons and Probation Minister in the House of Commons, in which he argued that this 33.3 per cent increase in the hours of the curfew and the 100 per cent increase in the maximum period over which such a curfew might be imposed—from six to 12 months—would enable the court to use curfews “creatively and flexibly”. However, there is potential for flexibility in the present system. That is not to say that one is entirely convinced by the present system but even it makes it clear that the 12 hours do not have to be a single period; they do not have to be consecutive. They can be in two or more blocks if the court thinks that is right. The curfew can be for a longer period at weekends than during the week. An element of flexibility is currently available.
I have yet to hear of an evidence base for this proposed change. What has persuaded the Government that a change of this kind will be effective? For that matter, what leads the Government to think that the present system is all that effective? We have heard from my noble friend Lord Ponsonby—no doubt rightly—that he spends much of his time dealing with breaches of community orders, of which this would be one, and sending people to prison for short sentences. It seems that the effect of these amendments would be to place a larger number of people on a conveyor belt to his court and other courts, and thence to prison, with consequences that have hardly been calculated.
A 12-hour curfew is difficult enough. It would be very difficult for anyone with a job, voluntary work or training to fit them in with a 16-hour curfew. It would make it virtually impossible for anyone to travel any kind of distance to work or some other establishment. That cannot be consistent with the aim of getting people—in this case mainly adults—into employment, which is one of the principal ways of avoiding reoffending.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, has pointed out, the curfew is effectively a negative form of community sentence. For community sentencing to be effective it ought to be positive, for example through community pay-back and restorative justice, which we will come to on later amendments. This is simply temporary containment. Indeed, one wonders what the effect will be of children being cooped up in the dysfunctional homes from which too many unfortunately come, and which are probably at the root of their problems in the first place.
I do not know whether the Government propose any assessment of the impact of the current system, let alone—if these clauses stand part and the Bill goes unamended—of the lengthened periods that these two clauses would impose. A proper evaluation should be made before proceeding with any change in either direction, but I am not aware that any such evaluation has taken place or is being planned. Perhaps the Minister could enlighten us. The figure for the number of breaches that the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, cited at the beginning hardly suggests that the system is all that effective, particularly for children.
This is very much a retrograde change. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, referred to Dickens earlier. I feel that this is almost a Dickensian proposal and one that we should not be developing in the bicentenary of that great writer. I think he would have had some pointed things to say about this type of legislation, and rightly so. I hope that the Government will think again and not press the changes that have been so effectively criticised by Members of the Committee and those outside.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, Clauses 67 and 75 would enable a court to impose longer curfew requirements as part of a community order, a suspended sentence order or a youth rehabilitation order. The clauses would allow the court to impose a curfew of up to 16 hours a day for a duration of up to 12 months. Enabling the courts to impose longer curfews in this way will make the community order capable of being more punitive and attractive as a suitable disposal for more serious offenders, possibly some who might otherwise have gone to prison. It will also increase the confidence of the public, who too often see community sentences as insufficiently demanding. No doubt these issues will be much debated in this House, but I am very glad that noble Lords support the principle of doing what we can to keep people out of prison. We all know the drivers of that.
We believe that increasing the maximum number of hours of curfew per day will give the courts more scope to use community orders imaginatively to punish offenders, protect the public and encourage compliance.
Lord Beecham
Wherein lies the imaginative use of these orders? Where is the imagination?
Baroness Northover
Perhaps we should leave that to those who are curfewed. For example, a curfew period of 16 hours will enable courts to curfew offenders for 12 hours overnight, as often happens now, but also to add a further period. This is designed to ensure that the offender is at home immediately before a community pay-back session to increase the likelihood of their turning up on time. More seriously, that illustrates the point that I just made about how this could be teamed with something else that the court wishes to achieve. If the curfew is timed so that the person will be at home before the community pay-back session, that is an imaginative way of using it. A young person attending school will need less restriction during the school week but could have their movements more tightly restricted at weekends, when they are at greatest risk of reoffending. That is another point.
I am aware that the Prison Reform Trust does not share this view and believes that the courts already have sufficient flexibility to impose curfews. I know that this belief has been endorsed by the Bar Council. Both have commented on their particular concerns about the impact of these changes on children. While I understand these concerns, it should be remembered that the new curfew limits are maxima. They will be imposed only where such a requirement is, as the law requires, the most suitable for the offender and where the sentence is proportionate to the seriousness of the offence. In respect of under-18s, we expect the longer curfews to be used sparingly and that courts will take their age into account. It will be the court that decides whether and how to use this option.
My noble friend Lady Linklater makes the case for when lengthy curfews would be disproportionate. Doubtless the court would see that in the relevant cases. The kind of aspects that my noble friend mentioned would be raised in court and taken into consideration.
Compliance with curfew is normally monitored electronically through the offender wearing a tag. This will not change. Indeed, we are exploring ways of making more use of electronic monitoring as the technology becomes more sophisticated and robust. None of the existing safeguards will change. Courts will still be required by law to ensure that the restrictions on liberty imposed by any community order are commensurate with the seriousness of the offence, so longer curfews may be more suitable for more serious offenders. It will remain the case that before imposing a curfew requirement, the court will have to consider what the effect of the curfew might be on the person themselves and their individual needs and circumstances and on other people living at the curfew address. With longer curfews being available, it will be even more important that the courts take account of the needs and views of the family members before setting the curfew hours. Youth offending teams will assess the suitability of the home address for curfew purposes. They will make a recommendation to the court on what length of curfew is appropriate. We would expect that any longer length and duration of curfew would be focused on older children where the alternative might be custody.
The point was made that longer curfews would interfere with work and children’s education. The law requires that all community order requirements, including curfews, should, as far as possible, avoid interfering with an offender’s work and education. I hope that that will reassure people. We believe that giving courts the power to impose longer curfews will contribute to realising the aim of making non-custodial sentences tougher and more demanding. In doing so, we hope that they will command greater confidence among sentencers and the public.
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone
I thank everybody who has participated in the debate. Consensus on this issue has broken out loudly and strongly with one unfortunate exception. I understand entirely where my noble friend is coming from and I do not envy her taking that position. Graphic arguments have been put forward regarding the reality of the lives of the people we are discussing. I respectfully suggest that the people who have framed these conditions have not been able to imagine what it is like to be in a house you cannot bear to be in for 12 hours a day for up to a year. Some sort of assessment by the Government in advance of imposing such restrictions on people who are already in trouble might be a good idea. Perhaps some sort of evaluation is in place that could be looked at. I do not know whether that is the case. Of course, it is a good idea to find alternatives to custody and for more serious offending but not, I suggest, if it hastens the route to custody. I cannot imagine how this measure will not lead to more reoffending. If there are more serious offenders around, it will simply result in more serious offending because these sanctions will be almost impossibly difficult to adhere to.
Once again, I thank everybody who has participated in the debate. I say to my noble friend that I hope that the arguments that have been made this evening will be taken away and considered very carefully before we come back to the matter on Report.
Baroness Northover
Baroness Northover
My Lords, the amendments in this group are minor, technical amendments to ensure that the extent of court-imposed foreign travel prohibitions includes territories as well as countries. I beg to move.
Lord Bach
Whenever I was sitting where the noble Baroness is sitting now and I began my speech on government amendments by saying that they were minor and technical, those sitting opposite me used to look doubly hard at those amendments to see whether they really were minor and technical. I am not saying that I have looked doubly hard at these amendments but they are clearly minor and technical and we have no objection to them.
Baroness Northover
“Alcohol monitoring requirement
(1) After section 212 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, insert—
“212A Alcohol monitoring requirement
(1) In this Part “alcohol monitoring requirement”, in relation to a relevant order, means a requirement that during a period specified in the order, the offender must—
(a) not consume alcohol,(b) for the purpose of ascertaining whether there is alcohol in the offender’s body, provide samples of such description as may be determined, at such times or in such circumstances as may (subject to the provisions of the order) be determined by the responsible officer or by the person specified as the person to whom the samples are to be provided, and (c) pay such amount of no less than £1 and no more than £5 in respect of the costs of taking and analysing the sample as may be specified in the order.(2) A court may not impose an alcohol monitoring requirement unless—
(a) it is satisfied that—(i) the offender has a propensity to misuse alcohol and the offender expresses willingness to comply with the alcohol monitoring requirement, or(ii) the misuse by the offender of alcohol caused or contributed to the offence in question, and(b) the court has been notified by the Secretary of State that arrangements for implementing the requirement are available in the area proposed to be specified in the order under section 216 (local justice area to be specified in relevant order).(3) A relevant order imposing an alcohol monitoring requirement must provide that the results of any tests carried out on any samples provided by the offender to the monitoring officer in pursuance of the requirement are to be communicated to the responsible officer.
(4) The Secretary of State may from time to time give guidance about the exercise of the function of making determinations as to the provision of samples pursuant to subsection (1)(b).
(5) The Secretary of State may make rules for all or any of the following purposes—
(a) regulating the provision of samples pursuant to an alcohol monitoring requirement, including hours of attendance, interval between samples and the keeping of attendance records;(b) regulating the provision and carrying on of a facility for the testing of samples;(c) determining the maximum and minimum fee that may be specified under subsection (1)(c), and the frequency of such payments;(d) regulating the functions of the monitoring officer; and(e) making such supplemental, incidental, consequential and transitional provision as the Secretary of State considers necessary or expedient.(6) In this section, “monitoring officer” means any person, other than the responsible officer, specified in an alcohol monitoring requirement as the person to whom samples must be provided.”.”
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My Lords, this set of amendments concerns an alcohol monitoring requirement and is modified from those tabled in Committee on the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill. The alcohol monitoring requirement requires an offender to abstain from alcohol and be regularly tested to ensure compliance as part of any community or custodial sentence. It would provide an additional option—a new tool—for the courts.
These amendments would not stop responsible social drinking. They aim to deal with irresponsible, anti-social alcohol abuse and its devastating consequences. When I tabled these amendments previously, the Government’s response was that they would pilot the idea in October, using existing legislation for low-level crimes. October has come and gone. Where is the pilot? Anyway, this is needed for middle and high-level crimes, not just low-level crimes.
I should explain why we need primary legislation to undertake a proper pilot. London wants to do a pilot and will fund that pilot. The proposal has wide support. London Councils, which represents all 32 London boroughs, has written to Ken Clarke supporting the scheme. The chair of London Councils is Mayor Jules Pipe, the Labour elected mayor of Hackney. The scheme’s project board has representatives from Her Majesty’s Courts Service, London Probation, Public Health and the Crown Prosecution Service involved in developing the pilot. Consultation has involved domestic violence victims, Refuge, Women’s Aid, domestic violence offenders, health leads and those with an interest in the night-time economy from transport to addiction support services.
Today, I spoke to Bernard Hogan-Howe, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, who is “fully supportive” of the proposal. He commented that alcohol is a precursor to crime in about 80 per cent of crimes in London and that after six o’clock at night you can smell the problem in the police cells. Violence against the person offences account for 64 per cent of Metropolitan Police alcohol-flagged offences and criminal damage accounts for some 11 per cent of alcohol- flagged crime. We should remember that only about 10 per cent of offences get flagged as alcohol-related even though, in recent British Crime Surveys, victims believe offenders to be under the influence of alcohol in about half of all violent incidents. The commissioner wants this to be a mandatory scheme. Voluntary schemes do not work because you need to support those who most need it and who are unlikely to recognise that need without compulsion. He wants this measure to act as a driver for better health as youth binge drinking is now a common cause of end-stage alcohol-induced liver failure in those aged under 25. We have a major social and health problem.
The Metropolitan Police view this measure as an additional tool against drink-driving and domestic violence. The proposed alcohol monitoring requirement has the potential to reduce reoffending for alcohol-related crime, particularly drink-driving and domestic violence, and contribute to long-term behavioural change of offenders.
Data in the US, where the scheme has been in place for eight years, show that reoffending rates at three years after alcohol monitoring more than halved when compared with traditional sentences of fines or custody. There in the US, 99 per cent of tests are negative, and two-thirds of those on an alcohol monitoring scheme have perfect compliance throughout the whole period of the scheme.
Lord Avebury
My Lords, anyone who has spent time in an accident and emergency department on a weekend evening will recognise the truth of what the noble Baroness has just said—that we face an epidemic of alcohol-related crime that is clogging up the A&E departments every weekend, with people being brought in with serious injuries sustained as a result of alcohol-related violence. I declare a personal interest, having been taken into St Thomas’s after suffering a burst colon as a result of being knocked off my bicycle in Millbank. It was on a Saturday night after a delayed reaction to the accident. I was taken in at 4.30 am and had to wait six hours before I received attention, and the whole of St Thomas’s A&E department was filled with people who had suffered alcohol-related injuries on the streets.
I echo the noble Baroness in saying that we have signally failed in attempting to find an effective way of dealing particularly with persistent offenders who commit their crimes under the influence of alcohol. London Councils has drawn our attention, as the noble Baroness said, to the fact that almost half all violent crime is fuelled by alcohol, and that each year more than a million alcohol-related hospital admissions occur—and that figure is increasing by 8 per cent per annum. The Home Office estimates that the cost of alcohol-related crime is somewhere around £10.5 billion a year, which does not even count the costs imposed on other departments such as health or justice.
These amendments therefore provide a new approach that has been tested and found to be highly effective in reducing serial alcohol-related offences of all kinds, including street violence, driving under the influence, domestic violence, burglary and theft.
In South Dakota, where the scheme was pioneered, alcohol-related motor vehicle fatalities were reduced by 60 per cent after the scheme had been in operation for five years. The system has now been extended to neighbouring states and will, I believe, be imminently tested in Strathclyde.
I was very impressed by the presentation given to some of your Lordships in a Committee Room upstairs by Professor Humphreys on the behavioural science associated with the Dakota system and why it works. The statistics certainly show that it is highly effective. The essence of the system is that the offender must sign up to total abstinence from alcohol and undergo regular testing to ensure that he adheres to the undertaking.
If the test is positive, that leads to a further confirmation test, and if that too is positive the breach leads to an immediate court appearance, which could mean a night spent in custody—it mandatorily leads to a night in custody in the case of South Dakota, whereas in the case of the London experiment, which is supported by all the London councils and the GLA, it means an extension of the alcohol monitoring requirement. In the South Dakota pilot, I understand that immediate 24-hour imprisonment was mandatory but, in the review of the proposal, the sentencing power of the courts in the proposed Greater London scheme is far more flexible. The case is overwhelming that we should try this experiment, and I very much hope that the Minister will accept the noble Baroness’s amendment.
Baroness Jenkin of Kennington
My Lords, it is a pleasure to speak to the amendments and to support the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. To me, the points made by the two previous speakers are unanswerable. We know that we have a very serious problem with alcohol, and the current solutions are not working. Those problems are leading to enormous costs not just for stretched hospital and police services but for the health and well-being of those concerned. We heard about some of the London statistics, but I hope that your Lordships will forgive me for repeating them because they are so shocking.
In 2010-11, there were more than 1 million alcohol-related hospital admissions, and the figure is rising by about 78,000 each year. Alcohol accounts for an estimated 40 per cent of A&E attendances. London has the highest rate of alcohol-related crime in England. In 2010-11, there were 11.7 alcohol-related crimes recorded per 1,000 population, compared with 7.6 countrywide. Last year, the police alcohol-flagged offences for London showed 18,403 violence against the person offences, 3,612 criminal damage offences, and 2,136 theft and handling offences. London also had the highest rate of alcohol-related violent crimes and sexual offences, which is why the impact on violence against women has been incorporated within the proposal, initially for domestic violence.
It is not surprising that, as we have already heard, the proposals have the enthusiastic support of the Metropolitan Police and the mayor, who wish to trial the scheme. But what do the general public think about the proposals? ICM research conducted a survey on behalf of the GLA in November last year which showed that 69 per cent support the idea of the courts having the option of banning an offender from consuming alcohol if they have been found guilty of committing an alcohol-related offence. There is also support of nearly two-thirds for the courts having the option of banning someone who has been given bail from consuming alcohol.
Let us remember that these are not just statistics; they are real people.
I wish to make a few further comments as a family member, as a mother, on behalf of hundreds of thousands of anxious parents who spend sleepless nights waiting for a call from A&E or the police station, waiting for the door to slam, for the sound of stumbling up the stairs, for the retching in the bathroom, hoping not to see, the following morning, another black eye or more bruised knuckles.
The current measures fail. These proposals ensure three months of enforced sobriety and would provide a window of opportunity for reflection, for peace for the whole family unit to work together to help a young person to take responsibility for his or her—and we all know the shocking statistics now of how many “hers” are getting into trouble—own behaviour. These proposals would provide families with a lifeline to cling to at a time of enormous stress and strain in their lives.
I say to my noble friend that 69 per cent of the public support the proposals. The mayor is prepared to fund a pilot scheme and every London borough wishes to run that pilot. Members of your Lordships' House with tremendous expertise and experience support the proposals. I so hope that the Government are prepared to do so too.
Lord Carlile of Berriew
My Lords, I, too, support the amendment, which was moved so ably by the noble Baroness, who has done a great deal of work in bringing it to the attention of your Lordships. I shall make four points briefly.
The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said that this is an epidemic affecting the nation. She is of course right, but it is not a new epidemic. It is absolutely shameful that this epidemic has been affecting the nation to a greater and greater extent for, perhaps, the past 150 years. My noble friend Lord McNally got into a little difficulty earlier when he mentioned Dickens to the Committee, and probably rather wished that he had not. I think I will not be controverted if I say that Dickens describes the effect of drink on young and, in many cases, very poor people in London very graphically in a way which has developed over the years. It is absolutely shameful that this epidemic has been allowed to continue for so long and it is about time that we did something about it. This proposal promises a great deal.
My second point is about the experience of the courts. The Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Mr Hogan-Howe, who supports the amendment at least in principle, came to London after a gap following a period when he was the chief constable of Merseyside. On every Monday morning—I do not wish to be Liverpoolist about this; I am merely using a city I love as an example—in the magistrates’ court in Dale Street, there is a procession of young men and some young women who have been in custody over the weekend because of mostly, but not always, relatively low-level offences committed because of uncontrolled drinking. Bridewells such as the Liverpool Bridewell on a Friday and Saturday night are a sad piece of evidence as to the effects of drink taken to excess by young people.
I do not want to sound sanctimonious about this. Teaching people responsible drinking is a very good idea. We want families to teach their children responsible drinking, which you will have seen in fairly large measure after Wales’s victory over Ireland at the last gasp of the match last weekend—I knew that that would provoke my noble friend Lord Thomas from his slumber in front of me.
My point is that in every magistrates’ court and every Crown Court—this goes to serious levels of offending —although we tend to talk a great deal about the effect of drugs, believe me, the effect of drink is ubiquitous. Any of us who has practised or has sat in those courts knows that it attracts every kind of crime and affects every class in society and every age group, but particularly the young.
Thirdly, I mention legal aid. We have spent a lot of time in this Committee trying to find ways to save money without removing legal aid. If there is one sure way to save money on legal aid, it is by reducing the incidence of serious crime by the introduction of this kind of measure. I confess my interest as president of the Howard League and feel that I can put my hand on what passes for my heart and say to my noble friends on the Front Bench: if there is one guaranteed way of saving a great deal of money on legal aid in the very serious and middling sectors of crime, it is by adopting this kind of measure.
My fourth point is about the revolving door of imprisonment. In one connection we heard earlier from the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, about 3,000 people who found themselves in prison because they were in breach of an order made in respect of a non-imprisonable offence. That is just one example of a huge cohort of people who find themselves in prison for breaking the law, although not terribly badly, relatively speaking. There is no cause of that door revolving at high speed greater than the misuse of alcohol. I believe that it would be completely irresponsible if we were not to seize this opportunity provided by the noble Baroness and have some serious pilot projects of the kind described in the amendment. I respectfully suggest to my noble friend on the Front Bench that in fact Liverpool would be a very good place to have a pilot because it has the community court, which was introduced by the previous Government. It is working extremely well and has won plaudits all around the world. In partnership with the community court, this kind of system could offer something towards reducing crime.
There is an analogy here. Drug treatment and testing orders—DTTOs—administered by judges, have been extremely effective in reducing drug-taking at a relatively low level. I have spoken to a number of circuit judges who have had to administer these orders and to a man and woman they believe that this kind of measure, which seeks to reduce the level of substance misuse gradually, works really well, mainly because it ceases to be authoritarian and engages the partnership of the person concerned. It works because most people who commit violent offences when they are, for example, under the influence of drink regret it afterwards and do not want to appear before a court in the future.
On those grounds, I support the amendment as strongly as I can and I hope that we will hear a positive response from the Front Bench.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I start by giving the apologies of my noble friend Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, whose name appears on the amendment. Unfortunately, he had to leave for another engagement.
I very strongly support the initiative set out by the noble Baroness. As has been said by others, it is a real recognition of the role that alcohol plays in crime, especially in domestic violence. The link between alcohol and domestic abuse is well known, as is the link between alcohol and cases of child protection. Alcohol Concern has demonstrated how often the criminal behaviour is repeated if the alcohol abuse is not tackled. As more than one of its clients has said, “He only hits me when he’s been drinking”. But as the alcohol support worker would reply, “If you knew you were going to hit the person you most loved once you were drunk, do you think you’d have that first drink?”.
The fact that so many men continue to take that first drink shows how valuable an intervention aimed at offenders could be. The sobriety scheme could play a role in this. I do not think that it is enough on its own, as I think that there needs to be some alcohol referral work to go alongside it. People who fail to tackle their misuse themselves are likely to need some assistance to work in parallel with breath-testing. That may involve some fairly brief intervention by experienced staff, and I believe that this scheme, working in parallel with the provision of such help, could make a real difference. The running of a pilot scheme, as suggested, is just the way to see whether this would work and whether, together with some brief interventions, it could help to deal with people who have a drink problem but who, by themselves, simply cannot get it under control. It could make a difference to the continued problem drinking of those who have broken the law.
I am no longer a magistrate, unlike my noble friend, but when I was a magistrate I would have loved the possibility of a rehabilitation order to monitor alcohol consumption. I believe that we should place victims centre-stage when we assess these amendments. Not only is most domestic abuse—that is the phrase used, although we used to call it “wife battering”—alcohol-fuelled but so, as we have already heard, is violence on the streets and against property, and there would be considerably less of that without the addition of drunkenness. When are we going to take action, as this House could do tonight, and do what ordinary, decent people want, which is to reduce the alcohol-related disruption to their lives?
This is an enabling measure. It does not require courts to impose it. It is an opportunity for someone with a propensity to misuse alcohol in a way that damages others, not themselves, to have a period of sobriety with, it is hoped, help, thus improving their family life as well as the well-being of others. The amendment would allow a magistrate to do this only if alcohol caused or contributed to the offence and the offender had a propensity to misuse alcohol and was willing to comply with the requirement.
My noble friend Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe was very anxious to make the point that a sunset clause could be added to a provision for such pilots so that, if they had not taken place after a year, the provision would not be needed on the statute book. Might that help the Government to accept the proposal? I very much hope that they will grasp with both hands this excellent idea of a pilot.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I must admit that when I started to listen to this short and interesting debate, I was somewhat puzzled by it and I certainly did not think that this proposal had much of a part to play. However, the more I listened, the more interested I became. Having heard the very good speeches of my noble friend Lady Finlay and the noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, setting out the support that exists, and indeed the practical support from the mayor, I am now convinced that this is a possible area for action. However, I have a question. When an assessment of alcohol consumption was made, could a test also be carried out to see whether drugs were involved and, if they were, could drugs also come under the treatment required? We all know that, alas, the consumption of drugs, as with alcohol, is rife. Equally, I totally accept that the amount of alcohol consumed by the young today is huge compared with what young people drank in the past. I am talking about quantities, because one sees how much is drunk by the younger generations. Having heard the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, I also agree that it might be a good idea to have a sunset clause. Somewhat to my surprise, I am quite attracted to this idea and I shall be very interested to hear what the Government have to say.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
It may be helpful if I respond briefly to the question about drugs. Drugs can be tested using this model, as has happened in Hawaii. However, this is about alcohol monitoring. The drug problem involves a much smaller number of people and there is not the same level of gratuitous violence as one gets with alcohol. Also, drug-testing usually requires a urine sample, whereas here we are talking about a breathalyser which will pick up alcohol levels. This is exactly why a pilot is important. One can find out the problems that can occur and the pilot could be rolled out further if it was successful. This is about alcohol monitoring, and we are dealing with alcohol because it is the biggest problem that we face. In conjunction with that, of course, there is lots of support on offer to people. The problem is that they do not take it up.
Baroness Newlove
My Lords, I had no intention of speaking in this debate but having listened to noble Lords, especially the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, I could not sit any longer. I am speaking because I truly support what is being said about sobriety testing and I ask the Government really to look at this. In the area in which I work, alcohol is my passion, because I am the victim of a crime—my husband was kicked to death in an alcohol-fuelled murder, so I am passionate about this subject. I am a practical person and not into statistics. The statistic that I want to look at is, what is the magic number? Are we really going to roll up our sleeves and tackle this? I welcome the amendment and am looking for support around the House. We need to consider the solutions in front of us and not keep waiting for further evidence. Let us do something not just to prevent having more murder victims but to help the young to have a healthy and socially responsible lifestyle ahead of them.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, I do not want to detain the Committee for long partly because I agree with virtually every word that all noble Lords who have contributed to the short debate have said. The speeches made by the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay, Lady Jenkin and Lady Newlove, and the speech of my noble friend Lady Hayter encompass all the arguments.
I have to disagree, however, with one point made by the noble Baroness Lady Finlay, which was the dismissal of possible technical solutions. Quite fortuitously, after the debate on a similar amendment to the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act, I met some manufacturers of equipment who, in passing, referred to equipment they have developed—I gather that three or four other manufacturers have done similar things—that enables remote alcohol monitoring. It would be wrong to dismiss that as an option. The equipment that I saw when I asked further about this—I understand that it has been shown to the Home Office, although I do not know the outcome of those discussions—clearly did not have all the disadvantages that the noble Baroness described.
I hope that the Government will respond to the views that have been overwhelmingly expressed in the Committee today and recognise that this point should be taken on board. This is a permissive proposal that will allow the pilots to take place. It is not mandatory either on magistrates or the police in terms of the action that they take. About 40 per cent of violent crimes have an alcohol component to them, so if this demonstrates that you can do something useful to reduce the level of alcohol-fuelled crimes, reduce the number of people who have to be admitted for longer periods or reduce the numbers at the revolving door into penal establishments, then it has to be in the interests of society as a whole. I hope that the noble Baroness who will respond to this debate has been briefed to say that the Government will support the scheme, and that they will either accept the amendment or table a suitable one on Report or Third Reading that will put this on to the statute book and enable these pilots to go ahead.
Lord Bach
My Lords, the problems of drugs in this country are always in the news. The arguments about whether they should be legal, illegal or somewhere in between are a constant source of debate among talking heads—quite rightly too, as it is a very serious problem and issue. By comparison, the issues of alcoholism and too much consumption of alcohol have always taken, certainly in recent times, very much a second place in discussion. Of course, if we read our local newspapers, we will see one such case after another—often they are minor, but sometimes they are very serious, which I shall talk about in a moment. We hear of X being found drunk and disorderly at the very bottom end of it, or of criminal damage or damage to a person. Every week countless cases are there to be recorded by any enterprising journalist who goes along to the local magistrates’ court. It is a wonder that, over many years, we have allowed this imbalance to grow—as the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, emphasised—in our discussion of drugs and alcohol. Alcohol when misused is a drug. There is no question or doubt about that.
We have heard some extraordinarily impressive speeches in a very impressive debate. From the opposition Front Bench we welcome the amendment and will support it all the way. I can be brief, as I know that people are waiting for other business to begin, but the facts are truly terrifying. There are 1.2 million alcohol-related violent incidents a year, including about half of all violent crimes. There are 360,000 incidents of domestic violence, a third of which are linked to alcohol misuse. There are all those arrests for drunkenness and disorder. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, talked about medium and serious crime. There are 530 drink-driving deaths—what a waste that is. There is also the appalling statistic that 58 per cent of rapists reported drinking, no doubt to excess, beforehand. They are horrifying figures for a civilised society and more needs to be done.
We are living in a time of austerity—it does not matter whose fault it is for these purposes—when more people are unemployed and people are probably poorer than they were. The figures for relationship breakdown are not exactly encouraging. Those are all factors that have been associated in the past with heavy drinking. We cannot be careless about the issue now. The cost each year is absolutely huge—£8 billion to £13 billion a year, as estimated by the Home Office in 2010. We have heard about the National Health Service and the ridiculous amount of money that it has to spend on people who constantly get drunk and then get hurt.
Of course I claim that the previous Government did useful and good things in this field, and no doubt the Government before that one did too, but that is no argument in itself. We have to do more and we have to take slight risks. We have to do more than we would otherwise think of doing. It is not a matter for some bureaucracy to decide that we can move forward on this step but not that one. This suggestion has been well discussed by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and her supporters, and I pay special tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, who speaks with such effect on all these matters. The argument has been so one-sided that is very hard to see any argument at all against the Government supporting, at least in principle, what has been suggested. I hope that they will support the amendment. We certainly support it—it would be a crying shame not to. It is, after all, a pilot that is being proposed. It is not a dramatic implementation across the country all in one go. A pilot has been proposed and I cannot think of one argument against adopting it.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, in responding to these amendments I am aware that these proposals were discussed previously in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act last year. I am very glad to say that we very much support the principle of the intention of the noble Baroness and other noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. It is very clear that alcohol-related offending causes a great deal of harm and there is an undeniable logic in tackling alcohol-related offending by preventing an offender from participating in the activity that has given rise to or exacerbated their criminal conduct.
The noble Baroness makes a very cogent case, and we all know how very damaging the abuse of alcohol can be. I can therefore confirm to the Committee that the Government will shortly be establishing two pilot schemes to test the principles and effect of enforced sobriety schemes as part of our effort to tackle and reduce alcohol-related crime, drawing on the success of similar schemes that have been trialled in the United States.
At the time of the policing Bill, the Government committed to testing sobriety schemes as part of conditional cautions within existing legislation. Since then, the Ministry of Justice and the Home Office have developed further proposals to pilot sobriety as part of community orders within the existing law. There will be two pilots using tags and breathalysers because it is extremely important to assess the practical advantages and disadvantages of schemes such as this. The conditional caution pilot will focus upon offenders who commit high-volume alcohol-related offences, such as drunk and disorderly, common assault and criminal damage. Offenders will face the tough choice of accepting sobriety conditions or facing prosecution and the prospect of receiving a drinking banning order on conviction. Anyone failing to comply with these conditions would be prosecuted for the original offence.
The second pilot will test sobriety as part of community orders, which will target a range of more serious offences where alcohol is a contributing factor. We will be looking at making use of the latest technology through which to monitor an offender’s compliance with the terms of the sobriety requirements. Breach procedures will exist as they currently do. We will set out further details of these pilots in the Government’s forthcoming alcohol strategy.
We want to hear the views of the judiciary, professionals within the criminal justice system and the public on the proposals. We will therefore be consulting in parallel with the pilot schemes to ensure that we give full consideration to the purpose, effect and benefit of sobriety schemes as we develop work further. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, as a medical scientist, knows how important it is to evaluate evidence. In her introductory remarks, she flagged up some of the complexities in this area. It is extremely important that we learn from these pilots in order that we can take forward what works best.
Alongside this we are taking a range of other measures to tackle alcohol-related offending. Pricing is one crucial lever for tackling alcohol misuse and its associated crime and health harms. I have just mentioned that the Government’s alcohol strategy will be set out shortly. We are also rebalancing the Licensing Act in favour of communities by giving greater powers to police and licensing officers to tackle irresponsible businesses. We are also strengthening violence reduction programmes to incorporate a greater emphasis on tackling the impact of alcohol and drugs and gathering evidence from drinking banning orders that are being piloted in 50 areas across England and Wales.
The noble Baroness has done a great deal to bring this issue to the Government’s attention, and I congratulate her for it, but as I have said, it is extremely important that we are certain of the effectiveness of this policy before it is put in statute, which is why I am very glad that we can take forward the pilots under current legislation so that the practical aspects can be properly assessed. There are some concerns not about the principles of the amendment but about the design of some of the elements. We feel that some safeguards are not quite as they should be.
The noble Baroness mentioned questions over the tagging equipment. It will be assessed, but I flag up that in 45 states in the United States it has been used for more than 5,000 offenders and has the confidence of the US judiciary and so on. There are a number of things that I can write to the noble Baroness about in regard to that, but as the noble Lord, Lord Harris, said, there are different views on some of the equipment which are slightly at variance with what the noble Baroness said. That shows how important it is to pilot and to see how these various approaches work.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
I will be grateful if the Minister will tell the Committee under exactly which parts of current legislation these pilots can be conducted. The legal advice that I have had is that it is only low-level offences. I have also been advised that breathalysers cannot be used under current legislation, so it would be helpful if she could specify which legislation they would be used under. Will she tell the Committee whether devices that detect alcohol in sweat are Home Office-approved and, if they are not, when she anticipates that approval will come through so that the pilots can start? Where will these pilots be conducted? When will they start? For how long will they be conducted? Who is funding them? Without that information, it is very difficult to accept at face value what sounds like a great idea, but we have heard it before, last summer, and I am afraid that no action has been seen since then.
I agree that alcohol does not cause domestic violence but I would be grateful if the Minister could tell us why alcohol-fuelled domestic violence is fundamentally different from other forms of domestic violence. Perhaps it is because it is witnessed by children in the family, who will bear those scars for their whole lives; at least if there is a drunken brawl out in the streets at midnight, it is not witnessed by children where their parent is being seriously injured. Therefore, I also ask for an explanation of why the Government have decided to downgrade the importance of domestic violence, which has extremely long-term effects.
Baroness Northover
I have to dispute what the noble Baroness says about downgrading the importance of domestic violence—we have not. It is because we recognise that it is a very complex and dangerous form of violence that we are separating it out from the assessment of the practicalities of this scheme in these pilots. It is something that has to be addressed across the board and in a much more complex way than whether or not you breathalyse or tag somebody and decide whether or not they have breached various conditions.
The noble Baroness has made her case extremely clear. We absolutely accept the principles. We are taking this forward in the pilots that I have mentioned. I realise there is another debate coming on. I am very happy to engage with her, as is my noble friend Lord McNally, and give her the answers to all the questions she has raised. I will not detain everybody at this point, and I hope that she will be prepared to work with us to take this further forward. As my noble friend Lord Carlile said, this is a very intractable, long-standing problem, but anything we can do to try to resolve the elements that we can, we should do; that comes overwhelmingly from people in this debate. We are taking forward these pilots—I give her that commitment—and let us discuss the details after the sitting.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
I am grateful to the Minister for having responded in that way, for offering to meet me and work through all the details. I am also extremely grateful for the support that I have had from all sides of the House, unequivocally. I make it clear that I am not against the tagging process; I am not against anything that deals with this problem effectively. What I am worried about is that if these schemes are not approved this problem will be kicked into touch for yet longer, as the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, said, and we just cannot do that. Like others, I also pay particular tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, who has spoken movingly and has committed her life to trying to bring some good out of the tragedy that she personally suffered.
With that, I will not press my amendment tonight, but I look forward to further discussions, and I must warn the Government that if I do not get satisfactory answers I intend to bring this back on Report.
EU: Trade Agreement on Banana Imports
(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Hooper
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the effects of the European Union trade agreement on banana imports and its impact on African, Caribbean and Pacific banana producers.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, before the debate commences, I have two things to say. First, in order to accommodate your Lordships, particularly those who are taking part in this debate, arrangements have been made for the splendid services of the Long Table to be available until 9.05 pm. Secondly, I remind noble Lords that this is a timed debate and that apart from the noble Baronesses, Lady Hooper and Lady Stowell, participants are limited to five minutes, and that when you see the number five it is the time to sit down.
Baroness Hooper
My Lords, when this Question was tabled, it was very topical. Now, almost two years later, having been retabled and having awaited a suitable time slot, I think it is still topical. The point is that bananas are very important to all of us. I am told, and I am quite prepared to accept without further research, that bananas are the most eaten fruit in the world and that the European Union market is the world’s largest consumer of the fruit. It is also well known that bananas provide a very healthy component of our diet, being rich in potassium.
On a personal note, I can well remember as a small child in post-war Britain eating my first banana. They were a rarity then, which seems incredible now, but I have always loved bananas since then and taken an interest in policies affecting them. Imagine my good fortune when the time came for me to take up a postgraduate fellowship in international law and economics at the Universidad Central del Ecuador in Quito, only to discover that Ecuador was a major producer of bananas. To this day, I find Ecuadorian bananas have a special taste, and it is one that I enjoy—with no disrespect, of course, to other producer countries.
As I said at the outset, this Question was tabled in 2010, following the historic Geneva Agreement on Trade in Bananas. The agreement came to be known as “the end of the banana saga”. The long-running trade conflict that preceded it has been described as,
“one of the most technically complex, politically sensitive and commercially meaningful legal disputes ever brought to the WTO”—
the World Trade Organisation. The bone of contention lay in the fact that the big American companies like Chiquita and Dole, the “dollar banana” producers, which farmed large plantations in Ecuador, Venezuela, Colombia and elsewhere in Latin America, were able to undercut the prices of the smaller banana producers, which were covered by the ACP—African, Caribbean and Pacific—policies of the European Union, which gave preferential trade terms to these small countries and imposed high tariffs on the Latin American exporters.
In talking of the ACP countries, I am referring to the 10 main banana-exporting countries: Belize, Cameroon, Côte d’Ivoire, Dominica, the Dominican Republic, Ghana, Jamaica, St Lucia, St Vincent and the Grenadines, and Suriname. It is an exotic roll call, and I know that in this short debate we shall hear in more detail about specific countries.
The deal between the European Union, Latin American banana producers and the United States aimed to comply with WTO policies and settled the 15 years of banana disputes. It cut the tariff that applied to Latin American banana imports to the EU countries and led to measures to help ACP countries to adjust to this new trading environment by providing financial support for investments in the improvement of competitiveness, economic diversification policies and broader social, economic and environmental impacts. In addition, it has to be said, ACP banana countries continued to enjoy duty- and quota-free access to the European Union under economic partnership agreements, which are separate trade and development agreements.
I believe that it is fairer to have a policy of social support for poor producing countries than to introduce a system of quotas, which encourages everyone to have a go. I am in favour of that policy. My main question to the Government and the Minister is on whether these arrangements are working. Is there fair and free access to European Union markets for Latin American bananas and the ACP product? Have the ACP countries been able to keep up the viability of their small-scale production without the preferences that they previously enjoyed? Have the special measures intended to help the ACP countries adapt to the effects of changes in the EU import regime really worked?
Given that the integration of all developing countries into the multilateral trading system and the global economy is a key European Union development objective, have the banana accompanying measures, which are known as BAM, been adequate? Has the €190 million budget been enough to meet the needs? These measures were due to last for four years from 2010 to 2013. Perhaps this is a good moment to ask whether there is an intention to review and renew these measures.
In considering these issues, it must always be remembered that bananas are crucial to the livelihoods of millions of people and a major source of export revenue for many developing countries—not only for the small countries, but also for the people working in the large plantations who are equally dependent on bananas as a source of livelihood. However, I recognise that the Caribbean countries have a special case. In particular, many of these small island nations previously produced sugar cane but, as a result of European Economic Community—as it was then known—policies which supported the production of sugar beet, they had to diversify. Because of climate and other weather conditions, bananas took over as the only suitable alternative crop.
As I have a few moments left, perhaps I may mention a couple of somewhat unrelated points. There may be other ways to use bananas in order to increase the size of the market—for example, as an alternative energy source. The foliage and fibre, which comes at the end of the production of the fruit, could be used to create biomass energy rather than simply being burnt off as it is currently. Research would have to be initiated to analyse its viability. Perhaps the University of the West Indies could consider doing something on those lines.
Most bananas carry a country-of-origin label and you know whether you are buying Colombian, Costa Rican or Ecuadorian bananas. But fair trade bananas carry only a fair trade label. Is there an explanation for that? It is possible that some other speakers may have the answer, as well as my noble friend.
As a postscript, I say that over the years your Lordships’ House has had many opportunities to debate the subject of bananas, largely because of the long-running trade dispute. That situation may happily have changed and the future may not hold so many banana debates. I cannot resist mentioning the last occasion on which we had such a debate—I think it was in 2006—which the noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, introduced. It is good that he is here today to give continuity.
I also remember a much earlier debate when the late Lord Pitt of Hampstead participated. He spoke on behalf of the producers in Grenada. Therefore, I am very happy to see his noble kinswoman, the noble Baroness, Lady Howells of St Davids, will be lending her voice to today’s proceedings. I thank all of your Lordships who are joining in the debate and I look forward to listening and learning from all the contributions, and from the Minister’s reply.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, on obtaining this debate at last and on her eloquent introduction. I declare a non-pecuniary interest as president of the Caribbean Council. Bananas are still a very important source of income and employment in many parts of the Caribbean, particularly the eastern Caribbean. St Lucia, for example, has 1,500 farmers in the banana sector but it has seen a huge decline. In its heyday, 30,000 people worked in the banana sector.
We have seen rapid liberalisation of long-standing preferential trade agreements taking place. When that happens, they need to be replaced by financial support and capacity-building measures to make sure that people whose livelihoods are being swept away are able to become more competitive or to find employment in other sectors. The banana accompanying measures, which were agreed by the European Commission, will go some way to achieving that by extending the earlier banana support programme with an additional €190 million. While that money is of assistance it covers support only until 2013 whereas, depending on the progress with the Doha round, we expect tariff reductions to continue until 2020. Therefore, there is a gap.
It is particularly scandalous that, due to a stand-off between the EU institutions, there has been a delay between the agreement to dramatically lower the preferential tariffs and agreeing the funding mechanism. In fact, the Geneva agreement on bananas, to which the noble Baroness referred, was signed in December 2009. Now, more than two years later, the European Parliament has only just passed a resolution allowing the banana accompanying measures to proceed and the funding has not even started to flow yet. In her reply, will the Minister give us an assurance that our Government will do everything in their power to ensure that the European Commission gets this money flowing as quickly as possible?
Turning to other sectors, although there has been a lot of discussion on bananas because of the dispute, which remains an important element, we need in the Caribbean to see a movement away from sugar and bananas into higher value-added goods and services where it has a unique advantage. That has already been demonstrated, for example, in developing a massively successful, globally competitive tourist industry, which is based on those beautiful white sandy beaches and the turquoise seas that we all dream about, particularly in the middle of this London winter. Incidentally, the decision by the Government on air passenger duty was particularly unhelpful to the Caribbean in developing the tourist market.
It is vital that everything possible is done to help to protect these success stories. Industries such as Caribbean rum are already heading in this direction. It is of the highest quality and now is entering a wide range of markets around the world through improved branding and the use of a quality market. Other industries, such as creative and cultural industries, financial services and high-quality cocoa and coffee, all have the potential with the right support to be globally competitive and successful contributors to the economies and employment across the Caribbean region.
I urge the Minister to ensure that her Government and the European Commission continue to promote the ongoing diversification of the Caribbean economy, and to support this very encouraging trend of developing and growing new and existing industries where the value-added element stays in the Caribbean rather than elsewhere.
Finally, the economic partnership agreement was signed in October 2008 in good faith by the Caribbean Governments, who understood that they would be locked in for the long term. Many of the preferential benefits in terms of market access and development support were going. Those previous certainties now seem to be disappearing before their eyes. The EU has opened negotiations in quick succession, making bilateral agreements with countries in Central America, South America and now with India in products that are of key importance to the Caribbean. In these negotiations, many of the special concessions that were granted to the Caribbean in the EPA are being watered down or nullified as greater market access is granted to producers in other parts of the world. Some assistance is being provided, but much of it still exists only in theory. Several years down the line, Caribbean Governments are now beginning to have to reduce their duties against European products without the benefit of the aid-for-trade assistance which was promised.
I conclude by asking the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Shutt of Greetland, to tell us the extent of the aid-for-trade support that has been provided by the United Kingdom and the European Commission to the Caribbean since the EPA was signed; and whether she agrees that more needs to be done to help the Caribbean, and that it needs to be done quickly.
Baroness Benjamin
My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend for securing this debate. We must never forget the vast wealth that the Caribbean provided for Europe, yet EU agreements and those that will be negotiated in years to come will further erode the benefits that the Caribbean has enjoyed as a preferential trading partner of the UK and Europe because of these historic and cultural ties.
This leaves one wondering whether the UK and Europe actually care about the Caribbean any more. Policy decisions taken in recent times on sugar, bananas and more recently on tourism in the form of the unfair UK air passenger duty, seem to reflect a lack of understanding or perhaps interest in the impact of UK and European policies on Caribbean economies and Caribbean people. That is what seems to be happening once again with the new EU trade deals involving bananas. There is a real threat facing the banana growers of the Caribbean who are desperately trying to make an honest living for themselves and their families. The agreements already in place are harming small island states in the Caribbean, especially the Windward Islands, which in the 1990s provided around 40 per cent of the UK’s bananas, but now only 8 per cent. The figure has gradually been whittled away by the import of lower-cost bananas from Latin America, picked by low-paid workers. This will only be made worse with the new EU trade deals with Columbia and Peru.
While the EU has not stood by its commitment to protect the region’s banana growers, the organisation Fairtrade has helped thousands of farmers to protect their livelihoods by securing a market for their bananas. This market has grown from 30 per cent in 2004 to over 90 per cent in 2009. The challenge now is to maintain sales to the UK’s Fairtrade banana market as well as developing additional markets for other fruit products from the islands. But there are now only around 3,500 farmers compared with 27,000 in 1992. High unemployment, youth unrest and poverty are real threats now facing the island communities. The islands have also been hit by a series of natural disasters, but the resilience of the farmers has meant that banana production could continue because they were able to turn to the Windward Islands Farmers’ Association and use the disaster fund they had put aside as a result of Fairtrade premiums. Thanks to Fairtrade, farmers have been given a lifeline and are now empowered. They also receive more money for their bananas, helping them to diversify and develop sustainable livelihoods for themselves and their children in the future. It is morally wrong for us to be part of a regime that takes all this away from them. It has been a struggle for survival. Income has declined from just over £1.5 million in 2009 to £150,000 in 2011. So the key to helping their survival is for companies, retailers and the public to buy Fairtrade Windward Island bananas. We can all make a difference in our own way.
What can the UK Government do to help? It was good to hear Foreign Secretary William Hague hint at the 2012 UK Caribbean Forum that he wants a new era promoting prosperity, growth and development between the UK and the Caribbean, but this will be difficult for Caribbean banana farmers as the EU has offered just €190 million to all banana farmers across three continents to be shared between nine countries as compensation for going back on commitments. This is clearly insufficient to cover the costs of adjustment. And astonishingly, almost two years after the money was promised, there is still no sign of it. Also, the banana accompanying measures resources are now being given directly to Caribbean Governments, which means that small farmers in the Windward Islands who are in desperate need are not able to access the BAM directly. This is another blow to Caribbean banana growers.
The Caribbean needs sustainable economic development to create the jobs and growth that will assist the transition from developing to developed countries. They want a hand up and not a hand out. Let us not take away with one hand and give aid funding with the other. People need to retain their dignity, pride and self-worth. Therefore we need to consider what can be done to support the Caribbean in adapting to new trade regimes. I would like to ask my noble friend the Minister what action the Government have taken, first, to ensure rapid payment of the elusive banana accompanying measures. Secondly, they should support the transfer of BAM funds directly to producers in the Windward Islands. Finally, they should top up the outstanding amounts from unallocated money from other EU funding programmes.
Bananas were first brought to the Caribbean by the Europeans to feed the enslaved workers—my ancestors—500 years ago. Today they are a source of income for the Caribbean people, so let us show some compassion and consideration for our long-term loyal Caribbean friends and supporters by continuing to buy their bananas.
Lord Palmer
My Lords, gosh, what an act to follow. We have heard a very emotional speech from the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, for introducing so succinctly this incredibly important subject. She has asked several very important questions, and I was most interested in her ideas for biomass in terms of renewable energy, something that is close to my heart. As usual I have to declare an interest as a residual beneficiary of a banana plantation on the Caribbean island of St Lucia, and my comments are going to be strongly related to that island. I am very grateful indeed for the help I have had from the St Lucian High Commissioner.
All noble Lords taking part in the debate are by and large singing from exactly the same hymn sheet. Some 100 years ago, there were over 6,000 banana plantations on St Lucia, while today there are fewer than 2,000, which is a dramatic drop. Twenty years ago, the island produced a massive 135,000 tonnes of bananas, which has dwindled to a mere 6,000 tonnes today. This has been caused mainly by the new European Union trade regimes coupled with the huge increase from Latin American producers who, with their geographical terrains, can harvest their crops at a fraction of the cost of the ACP countries, and this is due especially to the much cheaper labour and the size of their farms/plantations. As such, the lovely island of Grenada, which I have been lucky enough to visit, has ceased exporting altogether. This has caused great hardship to those who live in the countryside and who are not involved in the slowly developing tourism industry, which, of course, is being hampered by the grossly unfair APD—the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, made this point particularly forcefully. It really is madness that to fly to Hawaii is cheaper in APD than to fly to the Caribbean, particularly given that Hawaii is slightly more than double the distance of the Caribbean from London.
I have one very serious point to make on diversification for the small producers, many of whom live on our property in St Lucia. They need to earn a living. Their easiest option is to turn to growing the likes of cannabis, which is dead easy to grow in such a lovely climate and all of which will make its way to the nearest port in the United States of America. This surely cannot be a sensible state of affairs. It would encourage an increase in drug trafficking, which in turn would lead to a huge increase in organised crime. I urge Her Majesty's Government to do all they can to avoid this ghastly scenario.
Baroness Howells of St Davids
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, for raising this debate. I feel sure that Lord Pitt, wherever he is, will be pleased to know that the noble Baroness remembered his contribution on this topic some years ago. I know that his wife and family will be very pleased, too. I am unclear as to whether I should declare an interest. My grandfather was fortunate enough to purchase the estate on which his great-great grandfather was enslaved. Our family became growers and exporters of bananas.
Despite the lack of landmass and the loss of markets in spices and sugar cane, with its by-products of rum, sugar and molasses which had brought wealth to the islands, bananas remained the only real export after the islands became independent nation states. It is our belief that Caribbean bananas are the best in the world, but their history has been well told this evening.
Since the formation of the common market, meeting upon meeting has been held to decide what is to happen to the banana. Most of those meetings have done one important thing—not so important to us, but important to Europe: weakening the sale of bananas and, in some cases, the obliteration of their position in the Caribbean as a wealth-producing entity.
For well over five decades, bananas became the main source of revenue in the Caribbean. They kept the islanders in employment and were to some extent the mainstay of political stability. The growing of cannabis in the islands has already been referred to. What else can they do? Illegal it may be, but everything else has been taken away. I urge the British Government, in their meetings with the EU, to look one more time at this issue.
Small farmers could depend on the Geest boats coming in to collect bananas, which not only maintained their living standards but kept whole villages in employment. Wholesale love and care was lavished on bananas to get them ready for export, so that Britain would get the best quality.
At that time, preferential treatment was given to all the ACP countries. That treatment was in recognition of the relationship which the United Kingdom had with those small island states when they were colonies. During the past 20 years, the Latin-American countries, spurred on by their US-based companies, have made complaints to the World Trade Organisation about what they describe as preferential treatment for ACP countries. In 1996, Guatemala, Honduras, the USA and Ecuador issued a legal complaint citing three areas of dispute. They talked about the discriminatory tariff allocation and unfair licensing procedures—countries were expected at that time to import ACP/EU bananas in order to export bananas from Latin America into Europe. The procedures were said to contravene the most-favoured nation rule.
There began a series of meetings, got together to discuss bananas. Most of this was done without the input of the Caribbean or even the African countries. We heard of the imposed deadlines for exploration of preferences, ending with the EU adopting a two-stage approach to what they saw as a problem. At the end of those lengthy discussions, the Caribbean was forced to agree to an economic partnership.
Other Members have mentioned the various conventions that we have. Then came the Doha ministerial meetings and the creation of the ACP group, which signed up to a comprehensive EPA covering goods, services, trade-related rules and development co-operation. Throughout those years of negotiations, ACP Governments and campaigners expressed serious concerns about the feasibility of free trade between an established, wealthy trading bloc like the EU and the poor economies of the smaller nations. They were right to point that out.
I know I am running short of time. Although the homelands have made lots of strides, one thing that has happened is the new tax on air travel. That has brought the countries down.
Viscount Montgomery of Alamein
My Lords, I join others in congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, on introducing the debate. I opened the previous one in 2006 and it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness in this great saga of the banana. I seem to have been in the banana debate for many years. In fact, the noble Baroness, Lady Howells, who I follow, mentioned Lord Pitt. He was a great friend of mine. We had many discussions about bananas together in the bar from time to time. I am glad that she mentioned him. We certainly owe him a great debt. He and I were together in that activity.
The problem is that I am once again a lone voice in speaking about Latin American bananas as opposed to ACP bananas. Latin American bananas are unsubsidised and are grown on a much bigger scale. They are of just as good quality as any other bananas, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, pointed out from her experience in Ecuador. I, too, have lived in certain banana-producing countries. I was a resident of El Salvador for some years. Central American republics produce bananas on a very big scale and enjoy a tariff system that is reducing all the time. It will eventually be reduced by 2020 to 75 euros a tonne.
It is understandable that Latin American bananas are voluminous because they are grown on a plantation scale. It is not correct, as has been alleged, that the workers are persecuted and hard done by. For instance, in Colombia the banana plantation workers average 75 per cent above the minimum wage. They are well paid and not a persecuted minority. It is important that we realise that Latin American bananas, which are very good quality, should be allowed to arrive here in reasonable quantities. The central American republics have agreed to a system of tariff reductions over a scale approved by the World Trade Organisation. The World Trade Organisation was set up to encourage a proper system of free trade wherever possible. I like to think that we will be able to get this problem solved. I doubt whether that will happen in the short term because these problems are considered intractable.
I appreciate that the Caribbean countries have special problems. As has been pointed out, they need to diversify their economies and exploit their rights in tourism. As the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, pointed out, the Caribbean beaches are of fantastic quality. Tourism is surely a method of improving their quality of life and providing equal numbers in employment. Hotels are built continuously and require large labour forces to service them. I think the future of the Caribbean lies more in tourism than in producing bananas on small-scale, family-owned smallholdings which inevitably cannot be of the same quality as those produced on a large scale in Latin America.
I welcome a newcomer to this debate, in the shape of the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell. I wish her well in her endeavours to take up the banana cause. I have no doubt that it will not be the last time that we hear about it.
The Earl of Sandwich
My Lords, once upon a time, only 12 years ago, the UK among 15 European Union states signed the Cotonou agreement with the 78 ACP countries, which was designed to guarantee former colonies access to EU markets for their primary products. I well remember the preamble—I expect that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, will remember it from his time—solemnly committing Europe not only to meet its trade obligations but to eradicate poverty and to ensure continued development, including alternative forms of livelihood. Then came globalisation and liberalisation, the free trade winds blew through the WTO, and a series of interim economic partnership agreements were signed with a number of countries towards the end of 2007. A more comprehensive EPA with the Caribbean countries was signed in October 2008 but, as we have heard, it has been watered down since.
Meanwhile, the WTO, led by the US—let us not forget—on behalf of Latin American banana exporters such as Ecuador, has long complained to the EU that the old preferences were still there and discriminating against them. So two years ago, Europe caved in and let them in. But, as the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, and others have asked, what has happened to the protection for growers in the smaller, vulnerable states in the Windward Islands, so carefully established for them in the Cotonou treaty? The answer is that the UK, the EU and the whole world have let them down.
While UK sales of bananas have risen dramatically, the increased volume entering from other sources last year has driven down prices in the supermarkets, with a devastating effect on growers. As the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, said, the only bright future lies with the producers linked with the Fairtrade movement. I was pleased to see the familiar blue and yellow logo on the bananas in the Bishops’ Bar today. Fairtrade accounts for at least a quarter of UK banana sales. Through the Fairtrade Foundation, which I remember began with the backing of several leading aid agencies a generation ago, and the support of Waitrose and Sainsbury’s, thousands of producers and banana workers in the Caribbean are now getting a living wage. But it is not enough.
Certifying bananas as Fairtrade ensures that banana farmers in Africa and the Caribbean receive a decent price, but this is undermined by supermarkets engaging in banana price wars. A few years ago the price of loose bananas fell below 84 pence a kilo, down to as low as 67 pence a kilo. That was low enough. Last year, Asda cut the price of its loose bananas to 38 pence a kilo, its sixth cut in six weeks and a move that placed acute pressure on rivals to follow suit.
Since 1992, some 20,000 of the 24,000 farmers in Dominica, St Vincent, St Lucia and Grenada have gone out of business altogether, and the future for its remaining farmers looks bleak. I am not sure that the suggestions of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and my noble friend Lord Montgomery will be enough for those growers.
So what are our Government doing at this end to stop the banana price wars that are so harmful, especially to growers least able to cope with squeezed margins in the supply chain? What happened to the decision to appoint a groceries code adjudicator, which they were once so keen about, but which seems to have got stuck in the system? Finally, what happened to the development objectives in the Cotonou agreement? Have they been jettisoned in the name of the WTO and free trade? The agreement states:
“The partnership shall be centred on the objective of reducing and eventually eradicating poverty consistent with the objectives of sustainable development”.
As a consolation prize, I am hoping that the noble Baroness will tell us how many banana-producing ACP countries who are not LDCs benefit from other arrangements, such as the “Everything But Arms” agreement and any titbits left over from the generalised system of preferences and other forms of concessional trade.
I conclude by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, for introducing the debate and I dedicate these last few words to the late Lord Walston, a Labour Peer and personal friend who was a farmer in Cambridgeshire and St Lucia and who would most certainly have joined in this debate.
Lord Liddle
My Lords, on behalf of the Opposition, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, for bringing forward this debate and for the charm and conviction with which she introduced it. In the debate, we have had many notable contributions. My noble friend Lord Foulkes made me dream of the white beaches and turquoise oceans, but he also spoke with great knowledge and experience from his time as a Minister at international development. We had the passion of the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, while other noble Lords, including the noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery, the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, and my noble friend Lady Howells were speaking from personal knowledge.
Regarding my own knowledge of this issue, I suppose I should declare an interest. The part of my life in which I came across this was while I was in my noble friend Lord Mandelson's cabinet when, as Peter Mandelson, he was Commissioner for trade. This was one of the issues that came across one's desk then, and it is one of the longest running trade sagas in the history of the European Union. Its origins go right back to the start, when the French won preferences for their colonies against the resistance of Germany. When we joined the Common Market, we were able to get preferences for our colonies, which led to the formation of the ACP group. Since then, however, the brutal facts and realities of free trade have caused great difficulty for the vulnerable communities that have depended on these preferences.
There is an irony here. It is a tragedy that some of the general policies for which we, as a country and as the Labour Party, have fought—for instance, the idea that there be multilateral, supranational jurisdiction on trade issues—are good things but that is what, since 1993, has led to the EU having to abandon its preferences. Similarly, we want a general liberalisation of agriculture. We want to break down the protectionism of the common agricultural policy. So while we want liberalisation of agricultural trade, again, the harsh facts in this case mean very great difficulties for people to whom we owe a moral obligation.
This has been going on a long time. The EU fought a valiant battle to prevent this happening. The first case by the United States was brought in 1993 and the Geneva agreement was reached only in 2010. We stalled for years, first by fighting the idea that we had to give up on the preferences in Europe and then by saying that we proposed a tariff that was quite high in terms of protecting the Caribbean and other producers. Ultimately, because of the pressure from the WTO jurisdiction system, we have had to give way.
I turn to my questions for the Minister. First, what is her assessment of the banana market? What has the impact been? How serious is it in the countries that are affected? What is the Government’s view of what can be done to help? Secondly, the papers refer to the safeguard clauses that are allowed into the EU/Andean association agreement. How have they been implemented? Have they helped to protect the vulnerable producers? Thirdly, as many noble Lords have mentioned, what are we doing to ensure that the €190 million of special support is being wisely and properly spent? How can we ensure that that help is speeded up? What additional help will we be fighting for beyond 2013? I hope that we will regard this as a priority for the EU budget. Lastly, on a point that the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, made, what pressures are we putting on our supermarkets to try to support fair trade standards in the retailing of bananas, which would help the most vulnerable producers?
These are important questions and this is an important clause. We thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, very much for tabling this debate.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I have found this debate fascinating, and I congratulate my noble friend Lady Hooper on her patience, as I know she has waited a long time to secure it. Her thoughtful and expert contribution—and indeed those from all noble Lords—clearly demonstrates why, as she says, this topic is still relevant today.
It was clear from the contributions by the noble Baroness, Lady Howells of St Davids, and my noble friend Lady Benjamin that this topic arouses a lot of passion and emotion because of our ties with the part of the world that we are discussing. In my response I will try to do justice to the points that have been raised. I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, for his welcome to me on this topic, which is one that I know noble Lords in the Chamber today have debated on previous occasions.
As set out in our White Paper, Trade and Investment for Growth, published last year, this Government uphold fully the principles of free and open markets. Free trade reduces the cost of goods and inputs to consumers and manufacturers. It stimulates competitiveness and spurs innovation. Most importantly, free trade, especially at this time, supports sustainable and balanced growth which is, to state the obvious, essential to the global economy. As well as free trade, we believe in non-discrimination between countries at a similar level of development. The European Union’s Geneva Agreement on Trade in Bananas, introduced in 2009, supports both these principles.
Prior to that agreement, the high tariffs placed on bananas imported into the European Union from countries other than the so-called ACP group—Africa, Caribbean and the Pacific—were plainly discriminatory. Not only did that restrict market access and opportunities to banana producers in Latin America and elsewhere, it also raised the price of bananas for consumers in Europe. As I think most noble Lords would agree, those outcomes were not fair, reasonable or economically sensible. By contrast, the Geneva agreement will reduce discriminatory tariffs by 2018, and that reduction will bring considerable benefits.
I shall start with the benefits for the consumer. As my noble friend Lady Hooper has summarised in her remarks, bananas are the most widely bought fruit in the UK. Indeed, in 2010 they accounted for 27 per cent of all fresh fruit purchases. Incidentally, we buy more fair trade bananas than the rest of the world combined. My noble friend asked about the labelling of fair trade bananas and why they did not identify their country of origin. I imagine that the boxes in which the bananas are carried into stores will state their country of origin. I am not sure of the answer to the question about their individual packaging, but I will write to my noble friend. It is true that we are the main source for fair trade bananas. I was interested to hear that earlier today the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, spotted fair trade bananas in the Bishops’ Bar.
The price of bananas has fallen by around 10 per cent over the past 10 years, due to more efficient production and distribution. Further reductions on tariffs should help maintain this trend. The noble Earl asked what the Government were doing to combat a banana price war. The market will always determine the price of commodities; it is not the role of Governments to seek to control that.
The Geneva agreement will also support the industry, as the more efficient producers will be able to compete more fairly. I will come shortly to support for the Caribbean area, but in the long term, the agreement will support Caribbean and other ACP economies as it will encourage efficient production or diversification into other economic sectors better suited to local conditions.
While removing discriminatory tariffs is the right approach, of course I recognise that adapting to a new set of circumstances brings a number of challenges to producers in Africa and the Caribbean, as has been identified by noble Lords this evening. It is therefore right that countries are given time to adjust, and it is why the Geneva agreement will take up to nine years to be fully implemented.
My noble friend Lady Hooper asked whether the agreement is working. It is too early to assess the full impact of the agreement on both the Latin American and ACP producers. It is worth pointing out that since 2009 when the agreement first came into force, the share of the EU market has in broad terms remained unchanged in that the Latin American countries have retained about 70 per cent of the market. My noble friend Lady Benjamin gave specific statistics regarding individual ACP countries; I am afraid that I do not have them in front of me, but the total figure in terms of region has remained steady. That said, when the agreement was finalised, the Commission clearly assessed its potential impact. It calculated that the tariff changes were unlikely to have any major macroeconomic impact on the ACP group of countries as a whole. However, the Commission’s analysis also concluded that there could be significant loss of export revenue for some, in particular for Dominica and St Vincent. There could be consequences for some individual producers if cost-saving measures were not introduced, leading to job losses and localised social difficulties—in other words, if those producers did not or could not increase their efficiency in order to compete.
The Commission’s overall assessment was the rationale for providing further assistance—the banana accompanying measures, or BAMs as they are sometimes known and have been referred to by several noble Lords this evening—on top of the restructuring activities that had been undertaken with EC funding from 1994 until 2008. This assistance package of up to €190 million should be the final tranche of support for banana producers either to increase their international competitiveness for the adoption of new technology or diversify into other economic sectors. Several noble Lords asked what might follow the four-year period. It is worth pointing out that one of the reasons why it has been possible for the European Union to introduce these BAMs and the support is precisely because they are temporary. Had they been a permanent measure, they would not have been compliant with the WTO agreement.
The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and my noble friend Lady Benjamin, along with others, expressed disappointment about these funds having yet to reach the producers they are meant to help. We share that disappointment. Initially, as the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, indicated, the problem was related to internal wrangling over competence between the Commission and the European Parliament. However, noble Lords will be pleased to know that, as the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has indicated, this has now been resolved. That resolution means that there are no further excuses for delay. To that end, the head of DfID’s office in the Caribbean has raised the issue of slow disbursement rates with the Commission, most recently on a visit to Brussels last December. We have been lobbying our European partners in Brussels as well. This evening I can at least share with noble Lords that the EC delegation expects approval for disbursement for Jamaica and Belize in summer 2012. We need to keep up the pressure—I will certainly use this evening’s debate as a way of providing ammunition for our representatives in the region—but at the moment that is as much as I can offer.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
If I had been as courteous as the noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery, I would have welcomed the Minister to the debate and to the Dispatch Box. She has been very helpful. As I have said on several occasions, I have great respect for our Ministers in DfID, Andrew Mitchell, Alan Duncan and Stephen O’Brien. We have a very good team there. Surely one of them could go over to Brussels, as Clare Short and I used to, to give them a shaking and make sure that this money gets flowing as quickly as possible. That is something that can be done. We have a powerful team there. If the Minister draws attention to the widespread support across every Bench in this Chamber, whichever one of them goes can go with our wholehearted blessing.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I think they will hear that message loud and clear from the noble Lord, for which I am grateful.
Despite the setback on BAMs, previous assistance given to banana producers is having some effect. Some countries, namely Cameroon, Belize, Suriname and Ivory Coast, are increasing production and continue to use EC trade assistance funds to increase their competitiveness. I am conscious of the time so I will keep rattling on. However, some countries no longer find it economic to continue in banana production. Other producers have opted to diversify into other sectors such as poultry farming, or on-farm agriprocessing. In Jamaica, 35,000 people have benefited from 15 projects supported by the EC’s special framework programme for banana producers.
Very briefly, there may well be scope in my noble friend’s suggestion of using bananas as a new source of energy. I will certainly inquire and, if there is anything to report, come back to my noble friend.
The noble Baroness, Lady Howells, and the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, raised the serious issue of drugs and whether some banana producers might turn to producing drugs if they go out of business. Obviously the drugs trade is a pernicious problem and requires the international community to work together to tackle it effectively. We are working closely with the Governments of the Caribbean to eradicate this problem. I am not aware of any evidence that ex-banana growers are more likely than others to take up drug production or trade but it is clearly something that we need to watch out for. Indeed, it was raised at the UK-Caribbean Forum last month, as my noble friend Lady Benjamin mentioned.
There is much that I could cover in my closing remarks but I am conscious of the time. However, I should like to say that, separate from our responsibilities via the EU, the UK Government are doing a great deal to support the Caribbean. We have the interests of the people of the Caribbean very close to our hearts. Four British Ministers, including the Foreign Secretary himself, participated in last month’s UK-Caribbean Forum in Grenada, at which agreement was reached on an action plan to co-operate on a series of programmes to promote economic resilience, tackling climate change, the environment and sustainable development. The Minister of State for International Development announced the first grants under our new £10 million contribution to the Compete Caribbean initiative for private sector development and job creation.
Several noble Lords have raised the issue of air passenger duty. There was an Oral Question on this topic only two weeks ago, so I will not repeat the points made at that time. However, at that same event to which I have just referred, the issue was raised and the difficulties were acknowledged by my right honourable friend William Hague.
I conclude by saying that we will continue to monitor closely the impact of the Geneva agreement on the banana industry. Most importantly, we believe the combined effect of increased free trade via the agreement, together with the support we are providing to the ACP countries more generally, should provide economic benefits for the peoples in all the countries directly affected.
It has been a great privilege to respond to the debate today. I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to it.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
(12 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Ramsbotham
“Community supervision requirement for offenders aged 18 to 25
(1) In section 177 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, after paragraph (l) insert—
“(la) in a case where the offender is aged 18 or over and under 25, an intensive community supervision requirement,”.(2) The court if it makes a community order which imposes an activity requirement, may specify in relation to that requirement a number of days which is more than 90 but not more than 180.
(3) An activity requirement made under subsection (2) is referred to in this Part as an “intensive community supervision requirement”.
(4) A community order which imposes an intensive community supervision requirement must also impose—
(a) a supervision requirement, and(b) a curfew requirement (and accordingly, if so required, an electronic monitoring requirement).(5) A community order which imposes an intensive community supervision requirement (and other requirements in accordance with subsection (4)) is referred to in this Part as “a community order with intensive community supervision” (whether or not it also imposes any other requirement).”
Lord Ramsbotham
Since my noble friend Lord Adebowale is not in his place and as I have my name to the amendment, I hope that I may say what I was going to say anyway in support of it. This amendment and the two following amendments to which I shall be speaking, Amendments 177B and 177C, refer to a group of offenders who traditionally have been disregarded for too long, certainly as far as the Prison Service is concerned: namely, those who are over the age of 18, and therefore no longer children, and those in the young adult group who are aged either 21 or 25. That latter age occurs increasingly in people’s thoughts. My noble friend proposes that a community supervision requirement for offenders aged 18 to 25 should be earnestly considered.
In 1997, when I was Chief Inspector of Prisons, I conducted a thematic review, which I entitled Young Prisoners, because I was enormously concerned that prisoners in this age group were simply not being looked after, particularly in view of the arrival of the Youth Justice Board. The Youth Justice Board was successful because it laid down conditions for the treatment of children in custody and in the community. However, in custody, in what were called split sites, where there were people between the ages of 15 and 18 and 18 and 21, the facilities were not sufficient to provide adequate support for both groups. However, to honour the requirements of the contracts laid down by the Youth Justice Board, the Prison Service made the facilities available first for the use of children and then what was left was available for young offenders aged 18 to 21. Unfortunately, this meant that very little provision was left in many places—little educational and employment provision and little use of gym facilities. In particular, given the demands of the Children Act, staff were not available to do much with these prisoners and far too many of them spent all their time in their cells doing nothing.
I advocated three things in 1997. My report states:
“While there is a policy section, no one in the Prison Service has operational responsibility for young people: consequently there is an absence of overall vision and leadership in the development of regimes to challenge criminal attitudes and behaviour and prepare young offenders for a future free from offending”.
The report also states:
“Young adults should be separately managed by a reshaped organisation within the Prison Service which should be led and managed by a Director of Young Prisoners accountable to the Director General for all establishments or parts of establishments holding young adults”,
and that:
“Units holding young adult prisoners should have performance criteria related to specific outcomes for young prisoners, some of which should be shared with other Criminal Justice and community agencies”.
Unfortunately, absolutely nothing has happened. There is still a policy branch in NOMS, but there is no one responsible and accountable for these people. That applies in NOMS, and therefore, more worryingly, both to prison and probation. There is no one responsible and accountable for seeing that proper programmes are designed for this group.
Lord Adebowale
My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to speak to Amendment 177AA and I am particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for being here when I was not and to the Minister for allowing me to speak. I apologise to the House for my tardiness; I could not get here fast enough, cheese and biscuits held me a little too long.
My amendment would introduce a new intensive sentence for young adult offenders, as the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, mentioned. We live in an age where we need to present excuse removers for not doing something about a critical problem. If we carry on doing what we have always done, we should not be surprised if we get what we always have had. Those aged 18 to 20 years old are a particular problem. I guess that the Minister, or at least his officials, will find some fault in the wording of my amendment, but I hope that he will be able to respond positively to the policy concerns that I am raising alongside the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham.
Young adults continue to be significantly overrepresented in the prison population, with a very high reoffending rate often following short periods in custody. At the end of September 2011, there were 8,317 young people aged 18 to 20 in prison in England and Wales. In the 12 months to June 2011, 12,509 18, 19 and 20 year-olds were sent to prison under sentence. The vast majority of them are young men; a disproportionate number are from black and minority ethnic communities. I am not sure that there are any official statistics detailing the exact number, but I know that almost 40 per cent of the population of young people in jail under 18 are from BME backgrounds, and we can assume that the figure for 18 to 20 year-olds is similar.
Although there are pockets of good practice, prison simply does not deliver for those young men, especially those serving short sentences. Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Prisons specifically raised concerns about young adults sentenced to detention in young offender institutions, describing his impression of,
“young men sleeping through their sentences”,
in Her Majesty’s Young Offender Institution, Rochester, for example. He has also noted a lack of engagement in work, education and training opportunities across the youth offending estate, which again speaks to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, about leadership, and the fact that these things just do not work.
I have spent probably half a lifetime’s work in the not-for-profit and voluntary sector trying to help homeless and unemployed young people from disadvantaged communities to seize the positive opportunities available to them. I am actually optimistic about young people in Britain today, which is not something that you hear very often. However, none of us should be under any illusion about the negative temptations that most deprived youngsters face. I believe it is the responsibility not just of the not-for-profit sector but of the state to help those young men and women to turn their lives around when they have made bad choices.
That is why I was very pleased to hear about the young adult offender project, which was set by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland of Asthal, during her time as a Minister in the previous Government. Sadly, the working group that she set up did not survive her promotion to a different post, but one of the good things that came out of it, as was mentioned by the noble Lord earlier, was the intensive alternative to custody scheme—the IAC pilots around the country. The Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire IAC pilots were focused on the young adult age group in question, and over the past two years they have demonstrated great success in turning around the lives of young men who are on a path to becoming persistent offenders and perhaps hardened criminals. Experienced probation officers describe it as the first real opportunity that they have had to create a package of requirements that will change offending behaviour, and local magistrates are very supportive of this model.
These models involved tailored interventions, intensive supervision, enhanced monitoring, 30 hours’ activity per week, curfews, an accredited programme, unpaid work, court reviews progress and swift action on non-compliance—ingredients which are more likely to lead to a reduction in recidivism than what we provide at the moment. The Ministry of Justice funded the IAC pilot scheme but this funding ended in April last year, and the seven individual probation trusts are trying to find ways of mainstreaming it into their services as intensive community orders. Unfortunately, that is in just two of the 30-odd probation areas in England and Wales. The Prisons and Probation Minister, Crispin Blunt, told the other place:
“There was never an intention to extend funding centrally beyond the end of the pilots”.—[Official Report, Commons, 13/5/11; col. 1362W.]
I accept that no commitment was ever given to extend this funding but I am not persuaded that there was no intention to extend the pilots should they prove successful. It seems bizarre that something should prove successful and that funding should then be stopped at a time of economic restraint. Of course, the real judgment is whether there is sufficient evidence of their success. That is why it is disappointing that we are still waiting for the Ministry of Justice to determine whether it will commission a full evaluation of the pilots. I do not wish to detain the Committee for much longer but I hope that the Minister will tell us today how this evaluation is going and whether it is now under way.
The Prison Reform Trust has just published a new report on young adults in the criminal justice system, as has already been mentioned. It specifically highlights the good work of the IAC, particularly in Manchester, and it is worth finishing with an example. Lee is currently 10 months into his 12-month IAC order after being convicted of theft with violence. His father and uncle have also both served time in prison. He spent the first three months of the IAC with a tag, which he found helped him to avoid getting into further trouble. The IAC team helped Lee to find accommodation, have regular contact with his baby daughter and complete his construction skills card. In his own words, Lee says:
“The IAC team has helped me grow up and come to a realisation that, even though this is a punishment, it is helpful. It’s pretty intensive when you come here. At the same time, it’s made me aware that reoffending is going to be more detrimental than anything. After twelve months in here, it’s not really something I’d do now. They’ve given me other options, like going on different courses. Plus, because my offence is drink related, I had to learn to curb my drinking. It’s made it a lot more unlikely for me to reoffend”.
Some of the issues facing young adults in the criminal justice system were raised in the House of Commons during the debate on an amendment to the youth cautioning regime. Responding to the debate, the Minister said:
“We need to ensure that, given the colossal cost of failing to turn this particular age group around, we find ways to get interventions and investment into it, which will then deliver savings to the Ministry of Justice, because of the huge advantage of getting these people better and making them pro-social members of society”.
He went on to say:
“I accept the … general point about 18 to 20-year-olds presenting a particular challenge, and we need to be imaginative about how we deal with that”.—[Official Report, Commons, Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Committee, 13/10/11; col. 800.]
I hope the Minister will agree that this amendment is exactly the kind of imaginative thinking that his colleague wants to see.
Lord Bach
My Lords, one of the advantages of these debates is that we will hear proposals for new ways to divert people from custody. Any amendment that carries the names of both noble Lords, Lord Adebowale and Lord Ramsbotham, needs careful and sympathetic attention because both their histories in helping particularly young people who find themselves in potential conflict with the criminal justice system are proud records, and they have a lot to teach us. We are sympathetic to the idea behind this amendment, not least because of its reported success in the pilot areas where it has been tried out.
Noble Lords will know that Section 177 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 includes a series of requirements for persons aged 18 or over who are convicted of an offence. Those requirements include,
“(e) a curfew requirement … (k) a supervision requirement”,
and the list goes all the way to paragraph (l). There are all sorts of different requirements, and there has been no reticence to acknowledge that divergence from custody and the treatment of the underlying issues—whether they be mental health or socioeconomic—are important and can be more effective than custody. It is not legislators who have been afraid of proposing alternative measures.
One of the problems is the availability of schemes which are often administered by local authorities, the probation services, youth offending teams or other diverse, multi-departmental agencies. The idea for a new community supervision requirement seems an amalgamation in one sense of powers (e) and (k) from the list that I read out earlier—but probably because it is a combination of the two, it is the stronger for it. It is a recognition that, in that transition to adulthood, a community sentence that helps to socialise people to realise that what they are doing is wrong can be a powerful and tough sentence.
There are two elements to the amendment that I want to touch on briefly. As has already been said, there is a growing recognition that there is not a cut-off point at 18 for beginning crime or carrying on with crime. The years between 14 and 24 are generally considered prime offending years, with delinquent behaviour tending to start in early teenage and tailing off at age 21 to 24. Perhaps these things are not entirely surprising; but because of them, it seems sensible to choose the ages between 18 and 25 for this new requirement. We are sympathetic to the amendment. If it has been as successful as has been claimed in the debate, the Government should be sympathetic, too. I look forward to hearing from the noble Baroness.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, I thank the noble Lords for their amendment. Young adult offenders are a particularly difficult group and outcomes are not always as we would wish. I have a great deal of sympathy with the intentions here.
The amendment proposes a new requirement of the adult community order called,
“an intensive community supervision requirement”,
available for offenders aged 18 to 24. It is clearly intended to mirror the intensive rehabilitation order available for juveniles. I agree that we need to reduce the level of reoffending by young adult offenders and that more intensive engagement may very well have a role to play. However, we need to find ways of achieving this without further complicating the legislative framework and constraining how the needs of this age group will be addressed.
Affordability is, of course, critical. If we were to create extra burdens through statute by delivering intensive interventions, supervision and surveillance to this age group, the Government would not have the resources to deliver what we prescribed. We want to see more effective and efficient use of resources, with payment by results and competition being used to secure improved outcomes for 18 to 24 year-olds and other offenders. A range of interventions may be used to achieve these outcomes, and we wish to avoid prescribing which approach must be used with different age groups.
I heard about the problems at Isis, and the MoJ will be commenting in due course. I also note what noble Lords have said about intensive alternatives to custody. The Green Paper Breaking the Cycle said that the Government were looking at how the IAC principles could be extended nationally. The analysis of the reoffending rates of offenders who took part in the IAC pilots is under way at the moment. We will write to noble Lords as soon as the results are available. I hope that is useful to noble Lords.
The spirit of the amendment ties in very well with work that we are already doing to improve community sentences generally. In addition to provisions in the Bill to strengthen community sentences, we want to deliver a step change in the way they operate. They must address the problems that have caused the offending behaviour in the first place: the drug abuse, alcoholism and mental health problems that noble Lords have referred to. They must also punish properly and send a clear message to society that wrongdoing will not be tolerated. We are hoping to provide sentences with a much improved community sentence offering a robust and credible punishment to deal with both young and old offenders. To this end, we are currently conducting a review of adult community sentences and hope to publish a consultation document shortly. I encourage noble Lords to feed into that. In the light of my comments, I hope the noble Lord will accept that this is not a necessary step to take at this stage and will accordingly withdraw his amendment.
Lord Adebowale
Has there been any cost comparison between the IAC model and the cost of keeping a young person in prison and the concomitant cost of recidivism? The Minister seemed to imply that there is a cost implication in the IAC. Has any work been done on the comparison?
Baroness Northover
We are acutely aware of the cost of keeping people in prison. Obviously it is not only for cost reasons that you try to keep people out of prison, but given that it is a costly route, other measures can be measured against it.
Lord Adebowale
I am not quite sure that that is the answer. Like many noble Lords who have amendments to this Bill, I feel that we have not hit pay dirt here. We have what I, and I think many others, consider to be an excuse remover in terms of the IAC model and the leadership required, which my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham mentioned in his speech. I look forward to further conversations with the Minister on this issue. I do not feel it will go away and I do not want to be here in a couple of years’ time making the same speech as recidivism goes through the roof. However, if the Minister is open to a conversation with me and my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham on that matter, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Ramsbotham
“( ) In section 16(1) of the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 (duty or power to refer certain young offenders to youth offender panels) for “18” substitute “21”.”
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 177C. These amendments are complementary to Amendment 177AA because they refer to the group called young adults. In this connection, I remind the House that on many occasions I have said in other debates that the trouble with the criminal justice system is that the Ministry of Justice simply does not know the cost of imprisonment or probation. That is not to say that it does not know how much money is given to it for prison and probation, but it does not know how much money is needed to do the things that it says it wants to do with and for offenders. Until it knows how much money it needs to do with and for, it cannot know how much it does not have and therefore what it cannot do, and therefore what it needs to ask for in order for it to be able to do more.
This is something that always amazed me from the moment I went into the Home Office in 1995 because every year in the Ministry of Defence we used to go through what was called a basket-weaving exercise. We would be asked to cost the White Paper or whatever targets we had been given. We did that. Inevitably it came up that more money was needed to do what we had to do than we have been given, so the Ministers were asked to go and try to get more money out of the Treasury. They never did, so we then had to go through what we called a basket-weaving exercise, where you put what you had to do into “desirable”, “essential” and “nice to have” baskets. Then you went to the Ministers and said, “Look, here are the implications of not having enough money. What are we not to do?”, and then it was up to the Ministers to make the decision.
I thought, naively, when I went into the Home Office in 1995 and heard people saying there was not enough money, that this is what would have happened and the Ministers would therefore know what they could not do and what they needed to ask for. Nobody knew—nobody knows now. There is all this talk about not having enough resources—we do not actually know how many resources we have got to apply to which because we have not done the total sum. This is something that needs to be done in order to get discipline into the system. But that is by the way.
I welcome the reforms in Clause 73 that give flexibility to the courts in their response to individual offences and encourage specific support needed to reform a child’s behaviour. But that is talking about children. The purpose of these amendments is to extend this approach to young adults by requiring the Probation Service to replicate the work of youth offending teams with children in what are called referral orders. The figures suggest that these referral orders for children, which encompass a restorative justice approach within a community setting and have been available to sentencers since 2002, have the lowest reoffending rates of all juvenile court-imposed sentences. One-half of those given a custodial sentence reoffend within one year, and two-thirds within two, but the rate for referral orders is 37 per cent—not great, but a great deal less than that for custodial sentences.
The Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 made provision for referral orders except for offences so serious that they merited custodial sentences or so minor that they merited only a fine or an absolute discharge. This ruling was amended by the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008, which laid down that referral orders must be imposed when children aged 10 to 17 plead guilty to an offence that is punishable with imprisonment but have not been previously been convicted of an offence. That refers to first-time offenders as children. Orders may also be imposed when an offender who is pleading guilty has already been convicted of another offence, or where a youth offending team recommends that a second referral order may be beneficial. That provided some flexibility in the system.
Courts determine the length of orders, which may be between three and 12 months, extendable for a further three, and under them children are referred to a youth offending panel of two volunteers representing the local community and an experienced youth offending team worker. The panel reviews offences and their consequences with the offender and his or her parents. Following that, the offender signs a contract, which can be varied according to circumstances but which has two core elements: first, reparation or restoration to the victim or the wider community; secondly, a programme of interventions that are designed to address the risk of reoffending.
The panel monitors the compliance of the offender and if at the end of the referral period the contract has been successfully completed, the conviction is declared spent. If, however, offenders are unwilling to agree a contract, or fail to comply with it, they are referred back to the court, which may revoke the order and impose an alternative sentence. Youth offending teams are required to provide regular reports on the operation of referral orders to judges, magistrates and their legal advisers. That process underlies some of the other things about which we have been talking because they provide flexibility and the ability to relate what is going on to the needs and problems of the particular offender.
Along with many others, I believe that the time is now right to build on this proven success and to extend referral orders to 18 to 20 year-olds or possibly even 18 to 25 year-olds in line with what my noble friend Lord Adebowale has just proposed. If this is accepted, a decision will have to be made as to who is to lead the panels. At present, the remit of youth offending teams covers children only up to the age of 18. Speaking to the chairman of the Youth Justice Board, I know that she would not be happy for the remit to be extended to the older group because the youth offending teams have to look after children down to the age of 10. Therefore, it seems absolutely natural that this responsibility should be passed to the probation service, which takes on the responsibility at the age of 18, and probation trusts, which is what I favour because they are the people who have the financial responsibility for this age group.
However, given the very high reoffending rates in this group, I believe that there are very strong grounds for requiring the probation service—I mean requiring it—to deliver more targeted interventions for young adult offenders and referral orders seem to be a very strong model to follow. Until now, the probation service has not had a strong portfolio of programmes suited to this group, which is one of the contributors to its very high reoffending rate. I beg to move.
Lord Judd
My Lords, I look forward to hearing the Minister’s reply because this is a point to which he should give particularly serious consideration. Let me make two observations. First, if we are not doing this job thoroughly and well—the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has suggested that we are not—we are wasting all the money because considerable public expenditure is going into a task which is not doing what is needed. Therefore, if we want to get a proper return for the taxpayer, we should be certain that what we are doing is appropriate and effective.
Secondly, this age extension covers a crucial part of the young person’s life. It is the threshold from being young to joining the adult community. We should think of the amount of discussion and debate that we have in this House about higher education, further education, universities and all that. We are certain that we want to prepare our young people for the most productive and effective future possible. As things stand, we may be denying that possibility to people on this threshold and, through an inadequate response to what they really need, may be setting them off on a course which will result in one failure after another and, all too likely, reoffending and the rest.
From that standpoint, this makes eminent good sense. It will be a challenge to the probation service but it relates to issues that we have been discussing on other amendments when we have alluded to the probation service. I am really worried that its culture is changing so that, in effect, it has a kind of custodial role without the person actually being institutionalised, as distinct from playing a sensitive, imaginative and engaged role in dealing with young individuals, doing what is necessary to get them on a positive and constructive course and working out how that should be done. In asking the probation service to do this—and I think the amendment is correct in that sense—we must realise that there is an issue to be tackled in terms of the prevailing culture in the service itself.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I have added my name to one of these amendments and I have great sympathy for what is proposed in the other one as well, so I strongly support what has been said. I would like to believe that not only will this work in terms of this being set out in referral orders and the probation trusts taking on their new role, but also that we could somehow link this to the previous discussion introduced by my noble friends Lord Adebowale and Lord Ramsbotham about provision for 18 to 25 year-olds. The more we think about this age group, we can see how important it is to ensure the possibility of young people growing up with enough of the right support, education and training to have a real opportunity of leading more ordinary lives and not reoffending.
I wish we had more figures on what the actual costs are, because I should have thought it would be worth working out the budgets and spending enough to make this work. I am quite certain that it would be much cheaper than the cost of someone continually going to prison. I hope that the Minister will give this serious consideration.
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone
My Lords, I rise to add briefly to what has been said for two reasons. The first is the growing concern in the business about the lack of adequate work being carried out on behalf of people in this age group. They are missing out. In missing out, they bring in their wake a whole range of the problems and difficulties that we have been talking about. It means that they are more vulnerable and needy, and that they need more attention.
Anecdotally, I should say that I have sat in on referral orders, particularly the restorative conferences that are now run rather routinely. These are remarkable and really quite moving occasions. A young 18 year-old suddenly faces the reality of what it was they unthinkingly had done, and how important that is. It is also important in the context of the ongoing support that the referral order requires and thus implies in terms of support from the probation service. It is right to say that this does not come without a price tag, but when you compare price tags you realise where the dice should fall, and therein lies the challenge for the Government because everyone is judging them on where they are going to make cuts. It is an extremely difficult equation which does not really measure up, except to say that if we do not address this hitherto undersupported group, we are going to pay a huge price. The referral orders that are being discussed are really very creative and impressive, and mark a good way forward.
Lord Bach
My Lords, I can be very short. These are amendments that appeal to us, too. Referral orders, which were created in the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999, seem to work pretty well. Increasing the age from 18 to 21 is a sensible course to take. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, asked whether they should not be extended to an age greater than 21. We talked in the previous debate about the crucial years between 18 and 25, and 21 seems a slightly arbitrary figure. I think that I understand why it is in the amendment, but it would perhaps make more sense if the age went between 18 and 25. Twenty-one is not an age where you begin to say, “This is where offending ceases”; it is usually a bit later than that, although it is very difficult to generalise on such things. If we are going to take this course—we will certainly be interested to hear what the Government have to say about it—to extend the age from 18 to 25 would be a better course than from 18 to 21.
As far as the probation service is concerned, there are great concerns, as my noble friend Lord Judd has said. The second amendment in this group quite rightly suggests that the probation service is probably the best venue for those over 21. Once again, we look forward to hearing what the Government’s attitude is towards this innovative idea.
Lord Dholakia
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Bach, was a Minister in the Ministry of Justice during the previous Administration. In a number of debates, I have supported raising the age for referrals. Did the noble Lord undertake any costing at that stage in terms of what additional resources would be required, as against the benefit that would accrue? My fear is that the probation service in many parts of the country is nearly at breaking point. At the end of the day, the question of additional resources will boil down to whether money is available to do the work. Does the noble Lord have any information that might advance this debate further?
Lord Bach
My Lords, our time in government retreats into the mists of time day by day, month by month, and my memory fails. I certainly am not in a position to answer the specific question that the noble Lord asks, but to say that there were not concerns about the probation service at the time would be to tell an untruth. Some of the cuts that our Government felt were necessary to make—as do the present Government, too—related to the probation service. One of the achievements of my then ministerial colleague, the honourable Maria Eagle, was to make sure that the cuts were not so great as originally planned and that the probation service had some extra resources that it was not expecting. However, I have to concede that it was not a period, particularly in the latter years, when the probation service was getting as much money as it needed to deal with the problem.
On costs, I think that the noble Lord’s noble friend Lady Linklater had it right, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Howe. Comparing costs is very difficult throughout the Bill, not least in this particular area. I am sorry that I cannot help the noble Lord with more detail.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, I was very struck by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, dividing things between those which were desirable and those which were essential, and pointing to the need to prioritise. It has struck me that this Bill is above all about prioritising. It would be wonderful to be in government when there was a great deal of money to lubricate things but, even when that is the case, not all problems are corrected. We have just heard of an earlier period where, certainly during the early years, there was much more money to lubricate things yet problems persisted.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, I thank all those who have contributed. The noble Baroness has encouraged remembrance of a phrase that I have ringing in my brain, though I cannot remember from how long ago: “There is no such word as can’t”. I feel that that there is no such word in this connection. I hope in raising this amendment that I have accentuated the need to look at this age group. I deliberately said that I saw no reason why it could not be extended to 18 to 25 as opposed to 18 to 21 because there has been a debate about this for a long time. It is time that that was ended.
Young adults ought to be categorised, stopping at either 21 or 25, but not going on with the lack of clarity which means that no arrangements are made for the group that really needs help, either as adults or as young adults. That is why I go back to the fact that until and unless someone is made responsible for doing that, nothing will happen. I appeal to the Minister to think very closely about appointing somebody to do it. I hope that they will then lead a debate in which I know that all noble Lords who have spoken here and many others would be very willing to co-operate. This is too serious an issue to allow to go by default. I hope that we may have a discussion about this before Report. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
“Youth rehabilitation order: restorative justice requirement
(1) In section 1(1) of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 (youth rehabilitation order: requirements), after paragraph (o) insert—
“(p) the court may include in a youth rehabilitation order a restorative justice requirement.”(2) Schedule (Restorative justice requirement: Criminal Justice Act 2003) shall have effect.”
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede
My Lords, this group of amendments seeks to address an opportunity to introduce restorative justice into the Bill. Indeed, in the previous group of amendments, the noble Baroness spoke of the Government’s enthusiasm for restorative justice and the amount of money that they are investing in it. Restorative justice was referred to in favourable terms in the original Green Paper. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, has spoken, too, with real strength of feeling on restorative justice. He has said:
“Restorative justice is not a soft option. Facing up to wrongdoing can be a difficult and unpleasant process”.
I agree with that, but I add for myself that I think that it is a necessary part of the restorative justice process. I take it as read that all parties are in favour of adding a restorative justice provision to the sentences tool kit.
My Amendments 177DA and 177G specifically address youth sentences. Magistrates in youth courts need to have confidence, of course, that non-custodial alternatives to custody will work, and restorative justice, including conferencing, has a definite place in the right circumstances. If it were a specific requirement of a youth rehabilitation order, which is the burden of my amendments, it would emphasise its value and ensure that restorative justice is at the front of the sentencers’ minds when they come up with the sentence. The whole principle of youth sentencing is that youths often lack the maturity of adults and, in particular, may well not have considered the effects of their behaviour on their victims. It is true and proven that restorative justice can bring this home in a powerful way.
I accept that at present a restorative justice requirement could be requested as part of a supervision requirement or activity requirement. These obviously already exist, but the advantage of introducing a specific restorative justice requirement would be to keep that option at the forefront of magistrates’ or judges’ minds when they are sentencing.
The amendments tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, take a more ambitious approach, in that he specifically addresses the question of remand and having a pre-sentence restorative justice programme which would form part of a pre-sentence report. Presumably—although the noble and learned Lord will speak to the amendment himself—the sentencing bench would take into account how effective that pre-sentence restorative justice programme has been.
In conclusion, I regard restorative justice as an effective tool in the box. There is a substantial body of evidence that it works. I have made the point before, but I shall make it again, that judges and magistrates see the consequences of these community sentences when they fail. We see the failures, because it is the job of magistrates and justices to come up with further sentences when people fall down on their community sentences, whether in the youth or the adult courts. But I believe that restorative justice has a proven benefit and that this group of amendments presents an opportunity to put it into the heart of this Bill. On that basis, I beg to move.
Lord Woolf
My Lords, it may be appropriate if I speak now to Amendment 177DAA, which is in my name. Your Lordships will see that the amendment is supported by a trio of very distinguished names. Perhaps I may say a word about the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool, who cannot be here today. Unfortunately, he has been ill but I know he was very anxious to be here to support the proposal in any way he could. The other distinguished name which I mention with deference is that of the noble Lord, Lord Hurd. He is the president of the Prison Reform Trust, and I am proud to indicate that I am its new chairman. The Prison Reform Trust and the Restorative Justice Council are very enthusiastic about these proposals.
I was grateful for what the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, said in regard to his own amendments because I certainly endorse what he said about their virtues. He also indicated that my amendment perhaps goes a bit further. That is true but although I claim no credit for this, because others more able than I played a part in it, I draw attention to the fact that the amendment proposes, first, to give the court discretion as to whether it remands,
“the case in order that the victim shall be offered the opportunity to participate in a process”.
Because I know that the issue of costs will be high in the minds of those who appear on behalf of the Government, I also draw attention particularly to the proposal that the,
“court may not remand the case for the purpose specified … unless it is satisfied that arrangements for a process of restorative justice can be or have been made in the area where the offender will reside”.
This proposed new clause is really meant to cover the situation which I believe we are in.
The virtues of restorative justice are becoming more widely known because of the hard work that has been done by various organisations in different parts of the country. I was pleased to hear what the noble Baroness said about the Government's intention on restorative justice. I am of course aware that the Minister has also spoken in its favour. Regarding this amendment, I urge that it can do something very positive. It can put the stamp of approval on restorative justice into a statutory form. It can then allow the process that has already started to continue, and as and when the positive aspects of restorative justice can be brought into practice in different areas, arrangements can be made. In this way, there can be a growth of the use of restorative justice which is in keeping with the nature of the exercise.
In appropriate cases, it very often has a most markedly positive effect, first of all upon the victim. When we are dealing with criminal justice, it is important that we should not neglect anything that might be positive for the victim, and I am sure that the Government do not intend to do so. The other aspect is that it helps the process that, as I understand it, the Government propose to adopt and will ease the exercise that needs to be performed.
Lord Judd
My Lords, the point that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, has just made is very important: that we should bring the concept of restorative justice into the mainstream of our approach to penal policy and do not leave it, as it were, as an interesting experiment only by particularly enlightened administrators within the penal system. To endorse it officially as part of penal policy is a very good principle.
This is an immensely revolutionary concept for the whole of penal policy. It takes us away from the impersonal application of the law to the sphere of direct human relationships in which people can begin to understand the implications of what they do for the lives of other identifiable people, and that is a very important learning experience. It would also be very strengthening for society; if it took off in a big way, it could have big implications for building a strong and responsible society—what we do has consequences for other people and we have to face up to those consequences, not in terms of theory but in terms of real people with whom we are dealing in reality.
Restorative justice has some other interesting spin-offs, which I have read about and been encouraged by. For example, it enables victims not only to have the satisfaction of recompense, which is crucial, but to become more understanding about the whole situation. I have read more than one account of how victims have begun to see that the person who perpetrated the crime against them was actually a victim themselves. That is in certain circumstances; I am not letting this argument run away with me. I am not saying that that is true in every situation, but it applies in quite a number. If we are going to have a decent society and minimise crime, it is important to see the origins of that crime and the reality of the shaping experiences in the lives of those who commit it.
This is a significant development. I take my hat off completely to those who have pioneered it; we should give them all possible support. Endorsement in legislation would be significant assistance in what they are trying to achieve.
Lord Dholakia
My Lords, I am delighted to lend my support to this amendment. I am in good and powerful company: the amendment is promoted by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and the noble Lord, Lord Hurd of Westwell, and has the blessing of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool. Let me not exclude my noble friend Lord McNally; he and I have had numerous discussions on this matter and he has left me in no doubt that restorative justice is an essential element of the criminal justice system. The question is what procedure we adopt.
The case for restorative justice is on the Government’s agenda and its success cannot be disputed. We now need to provide the machinery which will enable retrospective justice to be set up on a clear statutory footing and give criminal justice agencies the impetus to refer cases. This is the clearest finding of the evaluation project undertaken by the University of Sheffield for the Government. We also know that victim participation rates were extremely high, with up to 77 per cent of victim participation cases involving adult offenders and up to 89 per cent of cases involving young offenders. The Government have often proclaimed that victims must be at the centre of the restorative justice process, and that is precisely what happens.
My noble friend Lord McNally has been very sympathetic in various meetings with groups operating in the criminal justice field. We now have a former Lord Chief Justice and a former Home Secretary, with their vast experience in such matters, getting together to amend the Bill by introducing a provision to enable criminal justice agencies to offer restorative justice to victims pre-sentence when the offender pleads guilty at the first appearance. The process allows victims to participate in face-to-face meetings with offenders, thus bringing closure to their fears and trauma. Victims show satisfaction but, most importantly, the frequency of reoffending is reduced.
Let me declare an interest: I said earlier that I chaired the Magistrates’ Association commission on the future of summary justice, and our report will be out soon. We took evidence from across many parts of the country, and participants included offenders and victims. In almost all cases, victim satisfaction was highlighted. The chairman of the Magistrates’ Association, John Fassenfelt, said that he has seen impressive evidence of victim satisfaction with restorative justice when it is organised to a high-quality standard and the insights it gives to offenders into the consequences of their offending. He said that if Parliament approves the amendment, the magistrates will be able to rely on probation to propose the most suitable cases, but the courts will only make the final decision to proceed if they are satisfied that it is in the interests of justice and in accordance with the wishes of the victim.
Research studies point to the international dimension, and cases in Australia and the United States, like those in Britain, delivered very high victim satisfaction accompanied by a reduction in reoffending.
Using the Ministry of Justice’s own data, there are potential cost savings, based on 70,000 cases, of £185 million over two years. In the present economic climate, this is something that we cannot ignore. It is value for money, as it saves £9 for every £1 spent. I fully support the amendment.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, I support these amendments but have one cautionary tale for the Government. Before that, I echo the words of my noble and learned friend Lord Woolf towards the end of his speech, when he said that restorative justice is not for everyone. This I remember being made very clear to me some 15 years ago when I was introduced to restorative justice by Sir Charles Pollard, then the chief constable of Thames Valley Police, to whom all those interested in restorative justice owe a huge debt of gratitude for the determination with which he has followed it.
Not long ago, he asked me whether I would like to attend a restorative justice conference at HMP Pentonville, which was extremely ably chaired by a young policeman. The case involved three young women whose flat had been burgled by a young and chaotic man to fuel his heroin habit. During the early part of the conference it was discovered that this young man had been born of a teenage mother and had three young children himself by teenage mothers. He could not read and had an alcohol problem. The girls explained why they felt so strongly about their flat being burgled and everyone was in tears. The agreement was that the young man should be put through a drug treatment course, taught to read and put on an Alcoholics Anonymous course. As he left, and there was a spirit of hope in the room, one of the young women said to him, “Furthermore, will you write to us every month to tell us how you’re getting on?”, which I thought was an extremely good addition. They left in a spirit of hope and I then said to the governor of Pentonville, who was there, “How much of that can you deliver?”. He said, “None”. I said, “How dare you let those people go? Unless you can support what is being recommended, all the hope engendered by this process is dead”.
Therefore, if, as I hope, the Government accept these amendments, I hope they will add the rider that those who are responsible for staging the conferences and seeing that they happen must make certain that what is agreed actually happens, so that the whole process is not undermined.
Lord Carlile of Berriew
My Lords, bearing in mind the cautionary tale of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, I nevertheless, like him, strongly support these amendments. First, these amendments seem to suggest practical effectiveness. Most of the crimes that we are concerned with in this general purview are committed by immature young men. The evidence for restorative justice is that it gives them a sharp wake-up call and makes a dramatic contribution to their growing-up process, which is a very good reason to use restorative justice techniques.
Secondly, restorative justice of the type that has been discussed is cost-effective. From my experience of practice, I can imagine many marginal custody situations of a kind that come before magistrates’ courts and the Crown Court every day of the week—common burglary, criminal damage, lower-level assaults and other offences at a similar level—in which effective restorative justice conferences might mean the difference between custody and a community penalty, and result in a substantial saving of money to the state.
Thirdly, I strongly support the view of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, that this should be put into statutory form. I have a feeling that we might hear that it is not necessary to do so because it is, after all, open to judges and magistrates to adjourn cases for good reasons in any event. However, placing this in statutory form will have a number of effects. Although judges try very hard not to make law whenever possible, they try even harder to respond to the law that has been given to them. If they see this kind of provision in statutory form, it will have certain—and I mean certain—repercussions. One is that the training of magistrates, from which the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, gave us some graphic illustrations earlier, will undoubtedly place greater focus on restorative justice.
Those of us who from time to time attend what used to be called the Judicial Studies Board, which is now called the Judicial College, know that immediately the Judicial College, in its search for new and interesting courses, introduces new modules on restorative justice because it is included in statute, there will not be a judge in England and Wales—magistrate or judge at every level—who does not begin to focus on the potential of restorative justice conferences and opportunities. It seems to me that the key to this measure in many ways is putting it into statutory form, as that would highlight its potential throughout the judiciary. I hope that we will hear my noble friend the Minister responding in a way that not only is positive about restorative justice—we know that he will be positive—but that recognises the advantages of putting it into the statutory form suggested.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, the Minister regaled us earlier with some literary allusions, and Dickens featured largely in those. I would like to follow his example—something which I am not always disposed to do, but on this occasion I will—by making another literary allusion to the famous Sherlock Holmes story concerning the dog that barked in the night. Watson pointed out that the dog did not bark and Holmes said that that was the mystery. The mystery about restorative justice is that it is not yet in the Bill. I hope that as a result of tonight’s deliberations and following the line of thinking of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, the Bill will include references to restorative justice for precisely the reason that he gave—namely, it would send a very clear signal of the Government’s expressed intent to promote restorative justice.
As has been indicated already, restorative justice has been around for a considerable time and has proved successful. Some 85 per cent of victims who have been through the process are satisfied with it. That is a very high proportion, particularly in these circumstances. The Home Office estimates that restorative justice has reduced reoffending by some 14 per cent. Again, that is a very significant reduction. To follow again the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, financial savings can be made in this respect. The Restorative Justice Council estimates—presumably on the basis of an equivalent 14 per cent reduction in reoffending—that in the case of adult offenders something like £185 million would be saved simply as a result of the reduction in offending quite apart from other savings that might arise. Therefore, we are talking about significant figures and a significant impact.
Mention of the adult aspect of this matter encourages me to endorse very strongly the reference of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, to the need to spread the concept across the age range. At the moment, it is mainly concentrated on children and young offenders. Only 1 per cent of adult offenders go through a restorative justice process. Expanding that would be significant and would lead, in the view of the Restorative Justice Council, to the savings that I have mentioned.
The Government have expressed their enthusiasm not only through the Minister’s words but in the Green Paper, Breaking the Cycle, which was published some 14 or 15 months ago. That document contains positive references to restorative justice, describing it as a,
“well established concept in youth justice”,
but pointing out that,
“restorative justice for adults is sometimes viewed as an afterthought to sentencing”.
The Green Paper went on to say that the Government were looking at how they might change that, whereby in appropriate cases restorative justice became,
“a fundamental part of the sentencing process”.
The paper stated that this was,
“likely to involve using restorative approaches as a better alternative to formal criminal justice action for low level offenders where the offender and victim agree the outcome”,
including apologising, replacing items or making good damage and so on.
The Green Paper continued:
“Secondly, in instances where a court case is likely to lead to a fine or community sentence, [the Government] will explore how it could best be used at the charging stage”.
“At the charging stage” goes beyond the amendments before us, and it is an interesting concept. The Government said that they would explore how best it could be used then, and pointed out that, if used, restorative justice,
“would be delivered as part of an out-of-court disposal, for example as a condition attached to a conditional caution”.
Again, a variety of action might be agreed—paying compensation to the victim or making good the offence in other ways. I do not know whether the Government have pursued that to any significant extent. Perhaps the noble Baroness who is to reply to the debate might comment on that. If not, she might follow up the point made at paragraph 80 of the Green Paper to see exactly how far the Government have gone. There is considerable potential in all this, and the amendments certainly should assist the process.
Restorative justice is usually discussed in terms of the face-to-face encounter between victim and offender, and that is perhaps the most obvious use of the term. However, it can be used in the broader sense of what is sometimes also called justice reinvestment—that is to say, in schemes such as community payback, whereby instead of individual reparation the offender is putting something back into the community, and not necessarily into the community that has suffered directly from his or her depredations, but into the community generally.
There have been some encouraging schemes around this concept. In my part of the world, two schemes in particular stand out that involve the successful restoration by offenders of two Victorian parks—Albert Park in Middlesbrough and Saltwell Park in Gateshead—where in both cases mainly young offenders worked under supervision and made a significant contribution to a local amenity as part of their punishment. The process had two effects: first, it of course gave the community an asset; but, secondly, it gave the offenders a skill and an experience of useful employment. Restorative justice can be applicable in that wider concept. In my own ward of Newcastle City Council there is a church with a large graveyard in which many local dignitaries of the 19th century are buried. It was in a poor state and there is now an ongoing restoration scheme that is facilitated in part by a group of offenders on a community payback scheme. That is another good example of restorative justice in that broader sense.
Both approaches to restorative justice are potentially valuable. I hope that the Government—in addition to endorsing the concept, as I am sure the Minister will—will ensure that the concept is enshrined in statute to give an impulse to its spread in practice, particularly but not exclusively among adult offenders. This would also ensure that the good intentions of the Green Paper, with which we on the opposition Benches certainly agree, were translated into reality at both individual and community levels.
I congratulate noble Lords who brought this matter forward in these amendments. I hope the Government see their way to accepting these amendments and, arguably, to expanding them in the way that the Green Paper appeared to advocate.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, where but in the Lords would we be having such a wonderful debate, run through with humanity, after 10 o’clock at night?
I acknowledge noble Lords’ support for the principle of restorative justice. The Government are indeed committed to delivering greater use of restorative practices across the criminal justice system. It is one of our key priorities. For example, we have already begun providing more than £1 million-worth of funding to youth offending teams, probation trusts and prisons for restorative justice training and practice standards, and we are currently setting up neighbourhood justice panels based on restorative principles. It is excellent to have noble Lords’ support for restorative justice. However, the Government believe that the amendments are unnecessary, although we are sympathetic to the intentions behind them.
On the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord, Lord Ponsonby, as I think he realises from what he said in his speech, a court already has sufficient powers under the existing requirements of the youth rehabilitation order and community order to make restorative justice activity a formal part of those orders. The activity requirement allows the court to consider the use of restorative justice where it has been advised that the victim and offender have agreed to take part and provision is in place to deliver such a requirement. The amendments make no provision for ensuring that both the offender and the victim are completely prepared to participate in a restorative justice process. That is crucial to the restorative ethos and to prevent victimisation, but I understand what the noble Lord is aiming at.
Turning to Amendment 172DAA in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, the courts already have powers to adjourn sentencing for the provision of restorative justice to be undertaken if they believe it will inform the sentencing process. I hope that the noble and learned Lord will be reassured that the Government are looking at taking that process further to allow for restorative outcomes to help inform the courts as to what appropriate sentence should be handed down.
However, the amendments do not contain sufficient safeguards to prevent the ineffective use of remand resources to adjourn sentencing and hold offenders in custody in cases where the victim does not want to participate. The amendments also do not seek to impose a restriction on the length of remand, which poses additional risks not only to delay in court time but also around the proportionality of remanding an offender in custody for a significant length of time without sentencing.
Therefore it is much better for the courts to retain discretion to decide when and in what circumstances restorative justice can be effectively undertaken, although we understand people's concern to ensure that it is high on the agenda. In practice, that would most likely need to be in cases where the court has already been notified of the willingness of both the victim and the offender to participate in the restorative justice process.
As I mentioned, it is crucial that the victim should have the opportunity to consider and undertake restorative justice if they so wish, and the offender must also be completely willing to participate—which the proposed new clause does not provide for. Any circumstances in which the offender is not completely prepared to participate in restorative justice—which cannot be signalled simply by a guilty plea—presents serious risks for the victim being revictimised because the offender is falsely or forcibly engaged in the process.
We have heard a great deal about the potential of this approach, which is of course very encouraging. Before we can make any determination as to whether further, specific legislation is necessary for restorative justice, we must make significant steps to build capacity to deliver it. Once we have begun to make greater strides in embedding restorative justice across the system and helping areas to put necessary provisions in place, we will reflect carefully both on whether to widen the application of restorative justice using the law and on how to do so, if it proves necessary to take this approach. Although I understand noble Lords’ enthusiasm to enshrine this now in statute, there is work to do before we reach such a stage—persuasive though noble Lords undoubtedly are, and we certainly agree with their principles. Although we share a common interest in the increased use of restorative justice, at this stage I nevertheless urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede
I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I particularly thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf. He emphasised an important point which I forgot to emphasise, which is the importance of victims and how restorative justice can be of benefit to them. I also thank my noble friend Lord Judd. His central point was the importance of bringing restorative justice into the mainstream of sentencing—a point on which all noble Lords who spoke tonight agreed.
The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, gave some statistics about victim participation rates. I found them surprisingly high—much higher than my own experience of restorative justice in youth courts, where our main problem is getting victims to agree to participate. That is a substantial problem that I have come across, but if the noble Lord has other experiences, I am encouraged to hear that.
The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, gave his cautionary tale. I am afraid that I can give cautionary tales as well. Nevertheless, restorative justice is a good thing to aim towards and to try to implement. I was amused that the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, predicted extremely accurately what the Minister’s response was going to be to this group of amendments.
Having said all that, I am encouraged by the noble Baroness’s response and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Woolf
“Enablement of courts to remand cases for restorative justice arrangements
(1) Subject to subsection (2) where—
(a) at his first hearing, a defendant pleads or has pleaded guilty to an offence, and (b) there is an identifiable victim of that offence,the court may remand the case in order that the victim shall be offered the opportunity to participate in a process of restorative justice involving the offender and any person or persons affected by the offence.(2) A court may not remand the case for the purpose specified in subsection (1) unless it is satisfied that arrangements for a process of restorative justice can be or have been made in the area where the offender will reside.
(3) Where a court does not remand the case the purpose specified in subsection (1) at the first hearing it may do so at a subsequent hearing.”
Lord Woolf
I was not intending to move this amendment, although I wanted to add one or two words to what has been said, in which case perhaps I should move it. Like the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, I was very grateful for noble Lords’ contributions, which were of an extremely high order. I think that restorative justice is something that we now need to seize hold of and take forward. Although I listened with interest to what was said by the noble Baroness about the fact that the amendment may not be needed, I ask her to take it away and think about it, and I do so for two reasons. First, if she will—
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall)
If the noble and learned Lord is proposing to continue with his speech, would he allow me to put the Question, as I think that strictly speaking we are out of order? We need to put on the record that the amendment proposed is Amendment 177DAA.
Lord Woolf
I apologise—I should have given the Deputy Chairman that opportunity. Perhaps I may continue with what I was saying about the possible misinterpretation of the amendment. If I understood the noble Baroness correctly, she said that one of the shortcomings of the present draft is that it does not take into account the situation of the victim, who must of course consent before he can take part. The whole core of the first subsection of the amendment is to give the victim the opportunity—I emphasise that word—to participate. It is absolutely of the essence of the amendment that the victim must consent.
I have not taken part in many of the debates, but I have the strong impression as I have listened to parts of debates—and a significant part of this one this afternoon and evening—that there is a danger that we are putting off everything until another time. We will find ourselves in exactly the same situation. If noble Lords wish to spend the time that the legislation deserves by examining it in detail, it is like a dash of cold water for amendment after amendment to be turned down when, for example, as far as drafting goes, the matters outstanding are well capable of amendment in a few minutes by a meeting with the Bill team.
There is a serious point at stake which goes to the heart of the legislative process. We have too much legislation but when legislation is introduced we must examine it with care. We must not lose the opportunity, by delaying tactics, of making amendments that can properly be made. I beg to move.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
I support the noble and learned Lord. I was surprised to hear the Minister say that it is very important that the victim should consent. Amendment 177DAA states that,
“the court may remand the case in order that the victim shall be offered the opportunity to participate”.
It does not say in any sense that this will be imposed on the defendant.
Baroness Northover
I refer noble Lords back to the concluding remarks that I made. I fully understand that amendments may not be phrased quite as we might wish but I hope that I addressed the principles. We are very supportive of restorative justice. I gave reasons why we feel that we want to take this further forward and see it in practice before building it into statute. My noble friend Lord Carlile anticipated that I might say something like that, and I expect that the opposition Front Bench thought likewise. We can continue to discuss this. We accept the principles and wish to take it further forward. Whether that means that it will go into statute is another matter. I hope that on that basis the noble and learned Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Woolf
Taking into account what has just been said in coming to my conclusion, at this stage I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Enforcement
(1) Where a magistrates’ court has fined an offender who did not respond to a summons and who was absent from the court when convicted, or has imposed any other financial penalty in the absence of the offender, at any time—
(a) the court may suspend or withdraw a warrant of enforcement given to a bailiff, and (b) the bailiff may return the case to the court which convicted the offender or such other responsible court within the jurisdiction of the area in which the offender resides (“the responsible court”).(2) Regulations shall be made enabling a court, Her Majesty’s Court Service or any person employed to enforce a warrant against a convicted person, to suspend or withdraw the warrant and return the matter to the court which convicted the offender or the responsible court as in subsection (6).
(3) Any person enforcing a warrant for a levy of distress or an execution against goods on behalf of a magistrates’ court shall be paid a single fee in respect of the work undertaken on the warrant to recover the fine or debt.
(4) Where any person enforcing a warrant for a levy of distress or an execution against goods following a fine or other order imposed by a magistrates’ court fails to recover the payment of the fine or discovers no or insufficient goods exist, that person shall return the matter to the court which imposed the fine or the responsible court in subsection (1) in order that another enforcement method for the recovery of the money owed may be undertaken.
(5) Regulations made under subsection (2) shall include the steps to be taken in a case where following conviction it is discovered that the convicted person falls into a “vulnerable category” for the purposes of page 9 of the National Standards for Enforcement Agents or as may be prescribed.
(6) Where on enforcing a warrant for a levy of distress or an execution against goods, the person enforcing the warrant discovers that the convicted person falls into a vulnerable category for the purposes of page 9 of the National Standards for Enforcement Agents or under regulations made in subsection (5), it shall be the duty of the person enforcing the warrant to return the matter to the magistrates’ court or the responsible court as the case may be for further consideration of the enforcement steps to be taken.”
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, this is a probing amendment supported by the Zacchaeus 2000 Trust—Z2K—and Citizens Advice. I am grateful to Z2K in particular for its help. The amendment would end legal confusion when bailiffs are on the doorstep of vulnerable and impoverished debtors and fine defaulters. The confusion arises between, on the one hand, the judgment in the case of R v Hereford Magistrates ex parte MacRae, which states that once magistrates’ courts have passed a fine to the bailiffs for enforcement it cannot be returned to the magistrates for reconsideration; and on the other hand, the current advice of the Ministry of Justice, which states that it can be returned to the magistrates under Section 142 of the Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980.
In its briefing note, Citizens Advice says that when a county court issues a bailiff’s warrant—a warrant of execution—for enforcement of a debt, the debtor can apply to the court to have the warrant suspended and the court can make an order for payment of the debts by instalments. However, no such facility currently exists in the magistrates’ court for a person who is subject to bailiff action to enforce an outstanding magistrates’ court fine.
Once the fine has been passed to the bailiffs for enforcement, the debtor has no clear channel to ask the court to suspend the bailiff action on the grounds of hardship or vulnerability. In such cases, the only option for a defaulter or the advice sector is to try to negotiate instalment payments with the bailiffs directly. However, as numerous cases seen by the CAB service show, bailiffs will often refuse to accept an affordable instalment. Instead, they demand full payment or large instalments that fine defaulters are unable to afford. Some of these cases highlight how the magistrates’ court gives these often poor and vulnerable defaulters no help or support, refusing to take the warrant back from the bailiffs.
I shall give an example. A problem arose in a case dealt with by Z2K. A collection order was issued by Wycombe magistrates against a lone mother with three young children, threatening arrest, bailiffs, referral back to the court with the fine increased by 50 per cent, et cetera. She had failed to pay for her TV licence and then failed to pay the fine of £210 plus £60 costs levied in her absence by the magistrates. At the bottom of the collection order was written in capital letters:
“ONCE ISSUED A DISTRESS WARRANT CANNOT BE WITHDRAWN AND YOUR MONEY OR YOUR GOODS MAY BE SEIZED BY BAILIFFS AT YOUR EXPENSE”.
In a panic, she borrowed £400 plus £260 interest from Provident. She then went to the court and paid the £270 she owed in an envelope into a machine, which did not give her a receipt. Later the court told her that she paid only £170 and it wanted the remaining £100. She genuinely believed that she had paid and thought there must be a mistake by the court. Threatened by the bailiffs again, she reluctantly agreed to pay off the £100 at £5 a week, but no payments were received by the court, which then sent out the bailiffs. The bailiffs sent two letters and called twice, adding £150 to her fine. She described the conversation as follows:
“I tried to explain that I had already paid the fine he had to collect and that I shouldn't be paying it again, let alone another £150 fee for a bailiff. He said no way I could pay weekly, he would give me two more weeks to pay it. I tried to explain that I am on Income Support and that there was no way I could pay him £250 in two weeks. He said that was not his problem and he would be at my house at 1.00 pm on the 15th June. He phoned on the 14th. I explained again to him that I didn't have £250 and that I am on Income Support with three young children. He said pay me the money on Friday or I will get a locksmith and break into your house and take your possessions, he said it with quite an aggressive tone, which made me feel intimidated and quite scared. I then tried to contact Drakes [the bailiffs’ firm], however all you get is a machine with options none of which are to talk to someone”.
I am sure that noble Lords have experienced just that, but not in such stressful circumstances.
Since March 2006, bailiffs have had the power of forcible entry. There is a tendency to use the threat on the doorstep without proper consideration of the circumstances of defaulters. At this stage, Z2K heard of the case. It immediately wrote to the court asking for a rehearing of her case, but the court stood by the MacRae decision and refused to take the case back. Z2K then wrote to the Ministry of Justice pointing to page 9 of National Standards for Enforcement Agents, which gives bailiffs discretion to return cases in vulnerable situations. The MoJ replied that,
“enforcement officers can be prevented from continuing with the execution of a distress warrant. This can be done by a single magistrate”,
under Section 142 of the Magistrates’ Court Act 1980.
In the event, the court reheard the case on receipt of a written request. A McKenzie friend presented a statement of her income, expenditure and debts and related the circumstances of the case to the magistrates. The magistrates reduced the fine, arranged for it to be paid by deduction from her benefits at £5 a week, accepted that she had already paid £170 and ordered that she be repaid £40. The bailiffs were withdrawn without their fees being paid.
That is part of the problem. The bailiffs enforcing magistrates’ court fines are private companies. They make their profit from the fees paid by the fine defaulters. If they return cases to the magistrates, they lose their fees, so they obviously prefer the MacRae judgment to the MoJ guidance. They should not lose money for doing the right thing, so the amendment proposes a fee which is paid whether or not the fine is collected. I understand the fee structure is under consideration and consultations are due to take place.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, my name is attached to this amendment.
My neighbour’s wife was parking her car in the car park nearest to the Wrexham Council offices some months ago and she put the sticker, which cost her 80p, on the windscreen but it fell on to the seat. It was still visible there but those who were collecting in the area decided that this was in breach of the regulations, so she was charged £40. A certain amount of correspondence took place with Wrexham Council, as you might imagine—indeed, the ticket was produced—and it was pointed out that there was no need for this, but nothing happened.
In the end, a magistrates’ court warrant was issued, after a lot of argument, and it was enforced. By this time, the 80p that had been paid for the sticker had become £450. The bailiffs alleged that they had been to the premises on a number of occasions. There was no sign of them having done so and the people concerned were in throughout the period, but that is what they said, and they charged an extra fee for every attendance at the property. There was absolutely no control over what they were charging. Of course, as has been stated by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, they said that a distress warrant cannot be withdrawn. Indeed, on a bailiffs’ website that I have just looked at, they say precisely that, that it is impossible to withdraw a warrant once it has been made.
I decided to look at the case that the noble Baroness referred to, the MacRae case at Hereford and Worcester Magistrates’ Court in 1998. According to the judgment that I read, the procedure was based essentially on publications in 1990 and 1992 of the Home Office’s best practice advisory group on fine enforcement and relied substantially on a computerised fine enforcement system. When an offender is in default and has not contacted the court to request more time to pay, the court issues a final demand. If there is no response to that, the computerised system produces a draft distress warrant, which passes through certain manual checks to ensure that there are no known circumstances that would make it inappropriate to issue the warrant. MacRae decided that once that computer has produced the distress warrant and one or two people have looked at it, that is the end—the bailiff can do nothing about it.
The noble Baroness referred to Section 142 of the Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980. That was the response received from the Ministry of Justice. Section 142(1) states:
“A magistrates’ court may vary or rescind a sentence or other order imposed or made by it when dealing with an offender if it appears to the court to be in the interests of justice to do so”.
So there is power, which is contrary to what was said in MacRae and to what appears on current websites by bailiffs, and which is in accordance with the advice given in the case to which the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, referred.
However, there is confusion. My neighbour eventually paid up the £450 because his wife and children were in tears. Rather than keep that scene of distress going on, he produced his chequebook and paid up. What is happening is that people are being bullied on the doorstep. This amendment would put that right. It would make it clear and would clarify what is currently wrongfully being done, in my submission to your Lordships, by bailiffs.
The amendment states that a warrant of enforcement may be suspended or withdrawn but very importantly it states that a,
“person enforcing a warrant … shall be paid a single fee”.
There would not be any of these ghost returns clocking up the fees for every attendance at the property. The amendment makes specific provision for those who are in a vulnerable position and are not in a position to stand up to these bailiffs when they come round to collect. That situation has been a disgrace. This is an opportunity for the Government to put it right and clarify what the law is so that we all know what should happen and what the proper procedure should be. I support the noble Baroness in her amendment.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, I have listened carefully to the case made by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, in support of this amendment. I am also aware of the arguments made by Citizens Advice and the Z2K Trust. There are essentially two issues as regards the amendment. The first relates to the current law relating to the power to withdraw warrants for non-payment of fines, which has not been particularly explored in these discussions but to which I will return.
The second relates to the practice of bailiffs enforcing those warrants particularly against fine defaulters, especially those who may be considered to be particularly vulnerable. I understand the concerns that many people have about bailiffs enforcing warrants. However, many people are concerned at the level of fines that remain unpaid. There is a balance to be struck between the need to have an effective way to collect unpaid fines, and therefore to enforce the orders of the court, and the need to allow for some flexibility in the treatment of fine defaulters.
The national standards for enforcement agents were revised last month. They set out specific standards—for example, for dealing with vulnerable and socially excluded people—and I hope that the noble Baroness has seen them. It includes a list of those who may be potentially vulnerable, including the elderly or people with a disability or where someone has a difficulty in understanding English. In addition, the contracts with bailiffs include several conditions relating to their behaviour and treatment of vulnerable people. The Government remain of the view that the national standards, guidance and contractual arrangements are the best and most effective way to ensure the appropriate use of enforcement powers.
With regard to the first issue under the amendment, which relates to the legal powers to suspend or withdraw warrants, the Government think that this area deserves further consideration. We do not think that there is any doubt that a court has the power to suspend a warrant that it issues but there is at least an ambiguity about the question of whether a court or a fines officer can withdraw or suspend a warrant issued by a fines officer. I am willing therefore to take away these points and to consider whether there is a need for a change to the primary legislation and whether that change can be made in this Bill or at a later stage. In the light of that, I hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, for his support and for another cautionary tale that he related to good effect. I would remind noble Lords of the very strong language he used. He talked about “confusion” and people being “bullied” and that it is a “disgrace”. I think that those words are warranted. I also thank the Minister for her response, in particular for leaving open the door on the second part. In taking away these issues, I wonder whether she would be willing to commit to meeting with the Zaccheus 2000 Trust and Citizens Advice to talk through the possibilities. The question is: if not in this Bill, in which one? It seems that we have an opportunity here and the Minister has shown an openness of mind that perhaps there is a case for clarifying this in law. I hope that the noble Baroness will seriously consider it for this Bill because another opportunity may not come up for some time. In the mean time, we may see other cases of people being bullied or rebuked and very vulnerable citizens being put into difficult situations. I do not think we should delay when we have an opportunity in this Bill. However, given what the Minister has said and the lateness of the hour, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Bach
My Lords, I shall be as quick as I can. Clause 83 is one of the shortest clauses in the Bill. It states:
“Schedule 11 (amendment of enactments relating to bail) has effect”.
If we turn to Schedule 11 on page 193, we see that it sets out the proposals for amendments to the Bail Act 1976. If there was ever a need for a Keeling schedule, it is here. Amendments to the 1976 Act are set out in various paragraphs of Schedule 11, and frankly, it is not good enough. There really ought to be a proper Keeling schedule of the amendments being made to the 1976 Act, and I really would ask the Minister to arrange for one.
My substantive point is this. Schedule 11 would subject bail in adult cases where a person has been accused or convicted of an imprisonable offence, or where a person has been released on bail but fails to surrender to custody, to a new test where bail could not be withheld if there was no real prospect that the person would receive a custodial sentence upon conviction unless he might, if released on bail, commit an offence involving domestic violence. It would also remove the court’s power, where an adult is accused or convicted of a non-imprisonable offence, to remand them in custody on the current available grounds: likelihood of failure to surrender to custody and/or previous arrest for breach of bail to commit offences or interfere with witnesses or obstruct the course of justice. It would create a new ground for withholding bail on the grounds that he might commit an offence involving domestic violence. There is a power to withhold bail, but the grounds are only that the accused might commit an offence involving domestic violence.
Of course it is a good idea to prevent remands in custody where the system can, and we support that. But the concern is—and here I am grateful to the organisation Justice for what it has to say about this matter—that the new test leaves no residual discretion to the court to withhold bail even where there is strong evidence that a defendant will commit a violent offence, intimidate witnesses or otherwise interfere with the course of justice on bail. The exceptions in the Bill relating to domestic violence, while welcome, are confined to too narrow a class of case, providing no protection for other deserving grounds; for example, where there is a substantial risk of violent intimidation of a victim of crime not of the same household as the defendant—so not domestic violence.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, intimidation of witnesses is itself an offence, so one has to put these things into perspective.
The noble Lord mentioned a Keeling schedule. I note the point that he has made and shall take advice on it.
I am slightly amazed that either Justice or the noble Lord has cavilled at this proposal. It is said that decisions regarding remand and about sentences are completely separate. So they are, as the law stands; the question asked by this government proposal is whether they ought to be.
The Government consider that, in general, defendants should not be remanded in custody where it is apparent to the court that there is no real prospect of their being imprisoned if convicted. Let me be clear: this is not any Alice in Wonderland idea of sentence first, verdict afterwards. The court will not engage in a sentencing exercise in advance of the trial. The provision affects only cases where it is clear at the outset that the alleged crime is not serious enough to warrant a custodial sentence. Where that is the case, remanding the defendant in custody is generally disproportionate and not a sensible use of prison space. That sort of defendant will not pose a serious threat to public safety. Those defendants who pose such a threat will not pass the “no real prospect” test and so will still be liable to be remanded in custody.
Some respondents to the Green Paper argued that special considerations might apply where offences are committed in a domestic setting, in that an offence that does not require custody might nevertheless imply a risk of domestic violence if the defendant were bailed—the noble Lord raised that issue. We recognise the force of that argument, and have taken account of it. The provision incorporates a special exception to deal with that sort of situation. However, remand places are too expensive to waste on defendants who do not need them. We want to ensure that they are used only where it is necessary to protect the public.
I take note of what the noble Lord has said. I will consider and reflect on it but we believe that this is one simple way of stopping the use of scarce prison accommodation for people who, once they are tried and sentenced, are not going to be sent to prison. Clause 83 and Schedule 11 should stand part of the Bill.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede
What would the noble Lord say to the case of failure to surrender? It is very common in magistrates’ courts to get people who repeatedly commit low-level offences and have no regard for court orders. They just do not turn up to court. Is the noble Lord really saying that there should be no threat of keeping them in custody until their trial?
Lord McNally
They can be tried in their absence and of course they can be picked up and put into custody. We are trying to deal with a very large number of people who go through our court system, are held in custody—taking up valuable prison space—but who from the very beginning it is clear will not receive any kind of prison sentence. If people do not turn up, of course they are in danger of being either tried in their absence or picked up and held in custody. If people try to intimidate witnesses, they commit a further crime for which they will undoubtedly end up in custody. In many ways, both Justice and the noble Lord are straining at gnats here. We are trying to deal with the very bottom end of cases. I will reflect on what he said, particularly on the Keeling schedule, and come back on Report.