Intellectual Property

Rehman Chishti Excerpts

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Westminster Hall

[Pete Wishart]

I would never suggest that there is a special relationship between No. 10 and certain key individuals in a company called Google, and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for reasserting the fact that I do not allege that today.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. Let me declare an interest at the outset. I have spoken to Allison Coleman, my former law tutor at the university of Wales, Aberystwyth, who advises the Welsh Government, the National Library of Wales, the National Museum Wales, the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales and the People’s Collection Wales on access to orphan works. Her concern is that it is possible that national institutions with vast collections of works whose copyright owners are unknown will be charged a licence fee when they digitise those items and publish them on the web. As Hargreaves argues and almost everyone accepts, it is in the national interest that tremendous resources are held by our libraries, archives, museums and galleries. If those public institutions have to pay a fee to digitise each item—

[Martin Caton (in the Chair)]

Order.

[Rehman Chishti]

I will finish on that point, Mr Caton.

[Pete Wishart]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman; he had a lot to say, and he said it eloquently and concisely. He is right, although unfortunately I do not have much time to discuss orphan works. He will know, however, about the great concern that exists. It is an issue that emerged in the Hargreaves report and seemed sensible and the right thing to do, although as soon as we started to unravel some of its complexities, we noticed difficulties such as the one that he described. He will also know about the great unhappiness about orphan works that currently exists, especially among photographers. The Government must consider such issues seriously, and I thank the hon. Gentleman for bringing the matter to the attention of the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her intervention. I did not mean to come across as being so hard on the good professor. Yes, the hon. Lady is right: of course there are things in the Hargreaves review that have to be welcomed. She is right to mention the digital copyright exchange. Under the leadership of Richard Hooper, we now have an opportunity to make that a fit-for-purpose exchange, but that will have to come through hard work. It will have to come through proper discussion and consultation with the sector and the industry.

There are things in the review that could be made to work, but I am not going to resist considering some of the bonkers economics behind the creation of a DCE. What figure was given for the value of a DCE? Was it £4 billion? That is based on one report from Copenhagen Economics, which assumes a number of things coming together—European directives and European institutions. Once again, we are talking about something that could be useful, but the economic analysis is woeful.

[Rehman Chishti]

With regard to digitisation and access to orphan works, does the hon. Gentleman agree with this point? If public institutions must pay a fee to digitise each item, not many public institutions will be doing that, and therefore we have to review that overall aspect and say that if there is to be a fee, it must be minimal; otherwise it will be a case of no fee.

[Pete Wishart]

Again, I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I can tell that he is passionate about the issues to do with orphan works, and he makes that point well. However, we must be careful about how we progress this agenda.

I want to touch on the exceptions that were not dealt with in the Hargreaves report. Some exceptions have just emerged as part of the IPO’s consultation and have caused immense concern, anxiety and grief. Those exceptions have to do with educational copying. This is a fundamental and very difficult issue. I am almost having to address this point to the IPO, because there is a sense that there is very little ministerial control when it comes to these things, but will the Minister please get in touch with these guys and get them to have a look at what they are doing with educational exceptions, because they are very dangerous? We could see no money whatever going to the people who provide educational materials, whether they are published works or programming—no money being collected on behalf of the people who produce that work for schools and other places of education. If there were to be no reward for people supplying that material to schools and colleges, why on earth would they do that? They will not do it for nothing. We are in real danger here. It is not only the authors and the people who make those programmes who will lose out. The schoolchildren and students will lose out, too, unless we resolve the issue, so will the Minister please examine that?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) on securing the debate, or as he delicately put it, this “little chit-chat”. He has a long-standing interest in a wide variety of music—I will be polite about MP4, as two of its esteemed members are here today. I say that as a parliamentary chorister, albeit a rather ropey baritone at the moment. He also has a strong interest in the broader issue of intellectual property and copyright.

The debate is important and timely. Questions have been asked about the nature of the proposals that the Intellectual Property Office put into the consultation, but the point is that it is a consultation. The debate is useful, and I am sure that some of the questions asked—I will come to option 5 and schools and universities in a moment—will be incorporated into Ministers’ thinking.

The hon. Gentleman raised concerns about the Government’s commitment and co-ordination, and I can honestly tell him that all the engaged Ministers, Ministries and the IPO work very closely together. We recognise that the matter needs to be looked at from both the cultural and social sides—our music, language and literature—as well as, of course, the economic side. In a sense, striking that balance effectively is what really lies at the heart of much of the debate, challenging though it is in many senses. Consulting and raising options—which, as the hon. Member for Lewisham West and Penge (Jim Dowd) pointed out, range from option 1, doing nothing, to option 5, which some would see as the radical option—in no way demonstrates a bias against copyright. The Government do not hold that position. We want to ensure that we strike the right balance.

My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) rightly highlighted the danger of believing that on our own we can simply continue as was. We would be ignoring the coming and growing challenge to the nature of what we think is the right structure for IP. That does not mean that we need to acquiesce, but it does mean that we need to be proactive.

On the broad context, the Government have made it very clear that growth is a priority. To achieve that, we need a robust and flexible intellectual property framework. As we have heard, it must be robust enough to encourage investment in new creative works and technologies and in building brands and designs, as the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) pointed out. Yet the system also needs to be flexible enough to evolve as technologies change and so support innovation across the economy. That applies to not only high-tech sectors, but high-tech processes. If I had told you 20 years ago, Mr Caton, that vacuum cleaners would be at the heart of new technology, you might have been forgiven for thinking that I had lost any sense of normality, and yet Sir James Dyson has demonstrated that a whole market can be changed through IP and innovation. We need to ensure that we do not confuse process with sector.

Hon. Members on both sides have referred to the economic importance of IP, which is absolutely right and illustrated by the fact that as a country we now invest over 30% more in intangible assets, such as IP, than in conventional machinery and computers. Most recent developments in technology have depended on IP, and such developments have in turn affected its management and use. These things are interwoven and we need to understand their interaction. In this continually changing technological environment, particularly looking at access to markets and illegal downloads, the Government must think about how we get the balance right for both the creators and the consumer.

We need an IP system that helps business and consumers to realise all the opportunities presented, which is why we are actively supporting the UK’s creators and the creative industries and why, to benefit creators, we voted in Europe to extend the term of protection for sound recordings from 50 to 70 years—a really important step for originators of music and other sound recordings. It is also why we brought charities within the scope of music licensing rules and pressed to introduce measures to tackle online infringement of copyright through the Digital Economy Act 2010.

In response to questions from several hon. Members, I can say that we are closely considering whether to block access to websites that infringe copyright. We will have something to say about that shortly, but, as I would like to continue to have a positive working relationship with my ministerial colleagues in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, I shall not pre-empt what they are about to say. An announcement is imminent, and I think that it will be welcomed.

The other half to ensuring that creators are supported is IP enforcement. We are just as serious about ensuring that individuals breaching the law will be brought to justice and sending that signal. To be fair, we saw an improvement between 2006 and 2009—the latest statistics that we have to hand. There was effectively a doubling of the number of criminal cases brought under the previous Government, and we welcome and support that pattern. In 2009, 75% of all copyright cases resulted in a conviction and 80% of all criminal IP proceedings ended with a guilty verdict. That is an important signal to send. My ministerial colleague, Baroness Wilcox, recently joined an enforcement team in Manchester to see what happens on the ground. The raid secured large quantities of counterfeit products and seven arrests were made.

We need a more concerted approach, which is why we launched the IP crime strategy. It renews the focus on getting the legal framework right, co-ordinates IP crime enforcement and, most importantly, supports intelligence-led enforcement. That touches on the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster made about the international and online issues.

[Rehman Chishti]

On the review and strategy, will the Minister look at access to orphan works, public institutions and, in particular, imposing no fees for projects of national importance?

[Mr Prisk]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. He raised that issue in the debate, and we are looking at and consulting on it. The National Archives, to which he referred, is part of that and we welcome its contribution. The tricky thing is how to best encourage digitisation and ensure that the rights owners are paid a fair rate, and we are looking at that balance with orphan works. I am sure that the representations from the National Archives that he talked about would be welcome.

I shall briefly come on to copyright in the time that I have remaining. We need to ensure that we strike a balance, so that, yes, in a world in which we can all create and use works, we also recognise that many people can be destructive, intentionally or otherwise—a good point raised earlier. We therefore have to consider whether the rules created before the digital transformation still fit the world that we live in today. Through the consultation, which is quite broad, we are trying make it easier for people to understand and use copyrighted materials, to remove bureaucracy and to boost innovation and growth. Some people have concerns about the framework that we have identified, and I have mentioned orphan works.

I shall briefly mention schools, because several hon. Members raised the issue. We must recognise that most schools operate with electronic whiteboards, broadband-delivered homework and other multi-media tools. Therefore, today’s classroom is a potential legal minefield, as the law lags behind modern teaching practice. We have had representations from universities and the Association of Colleges, and the hon. Member for Falkirk (Eric Joyce) also alluded to the problem. Let us be clear: we have no intention of dismantling copyright licensing schemes for education. Schools, colleges and universities will still need licences for many of their activities, including photocopying books. With specific regard to the concerns raised about option 5 in the consultation, that option relates to short extracts only. I hope that gives some clarity to the discussion. We are considering how we can make it easier for teachers and lecturers to use copyrighted materials practicably, so we are seeking further evidence on the costs and benefits of current copyright licensing arrangements in the educational sector.

In the final moments, I shall just say that the issue is very complex, but we are determined to move steadily forward using the good evidence available and balancing it with effective consultation. Many right hon. and hon. Members recognise that it is an awkward balance, and we must recognise the international context as well. The Government’s proposals for copyright will not endanger the health of our creative industries.