Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Lord Dholakia Excerpts

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, I can be very short. These are amendments that appeal to us, too. Referral orders, which were created in the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999, seem to work pretty well. Increasing the age from 18 to 21 is a sensible course to take. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, asked whether they should not be extended to an age greater than 21. We talked in the previous debate about the crucial years between 18 and 25, and 21 seems a slightly arbitrary figure. I think that I understand why it is in the amendment, but it would perhaps make more sense if the age went between 18 and 25. Twenty-one is not an age where you begin to say, “This is where offending ceases”; it is usually a bit later than that, although it is very difficult to generalise on such things. If we are going to take this course—we will certainly be interested to hear what the Government have to say about it—to extend the age from 18 to 25 would be a better course than from 18 to 21.

As far as the probation service is concerned, there are great concerns, as my noble friend Lord Judd has said. The second amendment in this group quite rightly suggests that the probation service is probably the best venue for those over 21. Once again, we look forward to hearing what the Government’s attitude is towards this innovative idea.

[Lord Dholakia]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Bach, was a Minister in the Ministry of Justice during the previous Administration. In a number of debates, I have supported raising the age for referrals. Did the noble Lord undertake any costing at that stage in terms of what additional resources would be required, as against the benefit that would accrue? My fear is that the probation service in many parts of the country is nearly at breaking point. At the end of the day, the question of additional resources will boil down to whether money is available to do the work. Does the noble Lord have any information that might advance this debate further?

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, our time in government retreats into the mists of time day by day, month by month, and my memory fails. I certainly am not in a position to answer the specific question that the noble Lord asks, but to say that there were not concerns about the probation service at the time would be to tell an untruth. Some of the cuts that our Government felt were necessary to make—as do the present Government, too—related to the probation service. One of the achievements of my then ministerial colleague, the honourable Maria Eagle, was to make sure that the cuts were not so great as originally planned and that the probation service had some extra resources that it was not expecting. However, I have to concede that it was not a period, particularly in the latter years, when the probation service was getting as much money as it needed to deal with the problem.

On costs, I think that the noble Lord’s noble friend Lady Linklater had it right, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Howe. Comparing costs is very difficult throughout the Bill, not least in this particular area. I am sorry that I cannot help the noble Lord with more detail.

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[Lord Judd]

My Lords, the point that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, has just made is very important: that we should bring the concept of restorative justice into the mainstream of our approach to penal policy and do not leave it, as it were, as an interesting experiment only by particularly enlightened administrators within the penal system. To endorse it officially as part of penal policy is a very good principle.

This is an immensely revolutionary concept for the whole of penal policy. It takes us away from the impersonal application of the law to the sphere of direct human relationships in which people can begin to understand the implications of what they do for the lives of other identifiable people, and that is a very important learning experience. It would also be very strengthening for society; if it took off in a big way, it could have big implications for building a strong and responsible society—what we do has consequences for other people and we have to face up to those consequences, not in terms of theory but in terms of real people with whom we are dealing in reality.

Restorative justice has some other interesting spin-offs, which I have read about and been encouraged by. For example, it enables victims not only to have the satisfaction of recompense, which is crucial, but to become more understanding about the whole situation. I have read more than one account of how victims have begun to see that the person who perpetrated the crime against them was actually a victim themselves. That is in certain circumstances; I am not letting this argument run away with me. I am not saying that that is true in every situation, but it applies in quite a number. If we are going to have a decent society and minimise crime, it is important to see the origins of that crime and the reality of the shaping experiences in the lives of those who commit it.

This is a significant development. I take my hat off completely to those who have pioneered it; we should give them all possible support. Endorsement in legislation would be significant assistance in what they are trying to achieve.

[Lord Dholakia]

My Lords, I am delighted to lend my support to this amendment. I am in good and powerful company: the amendment is promoted by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and the noble Lord, Lord Hurd of Westwell, and has the blessing of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool. Let me not exclude my noble friend Lord McNally; he and I have had numerous discussions on this matter and he has left me in no doubt that restorative justice is an essential element of the criminal justice system. The question is what procedure we adopt.

The case for restorative justice is on the Government’s agenda and its success cannot be disputed. We now need to provide the machinery which will enable retrospective justice to be set up on a clear statutory footing and give criminal justice agencies the impetus to refer cases. This is the clearest finding of the evaluation project undertaken by the University of Sheffield for the Government. We also know that victim participation rates were extremely high, with up to 77 per cent of victim participation cases involving adult offenders and up to 89 per cent of cases involving young offenders. The Government have often proclaimed that victims must be at the centre of the restorative justice process, and that is precisely what happens.

My noble friend Lord McNally has been very sympathetic in various meetings with groups operating in the criminal justice field. We now have a former Lord Chief Justice and a former Home Secretary, with their vast experience in such matters, getting together to amend the Bill by introducing a provision to enable criminal justice agencies to offer restorative justice to victims pre-sentence when the offender pleads guilty at the first appearance. The process allows victims to participate in face-to-face meetings with offenders, thus bringing closure to their fears and trauma. Victims show satisfaction but, most importantly, the frequency of reoffending is reduced.

Let me declare an interest: I said earlier that I chaired the Magistrates’ Association commission on the future of summary justice, and our report will be out soon. We took evidence from across many parts of the country, and participants included offenders and victims. In almost all cases, victim satisfaction was highlighted. The chairman of the Magistrates’ Association, John Fassenfelt, said that he has seen impressive evidence of victim satisfaction with restorative justice when it is organised to a high-quality standard and the insights it gives to offenders into the consequences of their offending. He said that if Parliament approves the amendment, the magistrates will be able to rely on probation to propose the most suitable cases, but the courts will only make the final decision to proceed if they are satisfied that it is in the interests of justice and in accordance with the wishes of the victim.

Research studies point to the international dimension, and cases in Australia and the United States, like those in Britain, delivered very high victim satisfaction accompanied by a reduction in reoffending.

Using the Ministry of Justice’s own data, there are potential cost savings, based on 70,000 cases, of £185 million over two years. In the present economic climate, this is something that we cannot ignore. It is value for money, as it saves £9 for every £1 spent. I fully support the amendment.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I support these amendments but have one cautionary tale for the Government. Before that, I echo the words of my noble and learned friend Lord Woolf towards the end of his speech, when he said that restorative justice is not for everyone. This I remember being made very clear to me some 15 years ago when I was introduced to restorative justice by Sir Charles Pollard, then the chief constable of Thames Valley Police, to whom all those interested in restorative justice owe a huge debt of gratitude for the determination with which he has followed it.

Not long ago, he asked me whether I would like to attend a restorative justice conference at HMP Pentonville, which was extremely ably chaired by a young policeman. The case involved three young women whose flat had been burgled by a young and chaotic man to fuel his heroin habit. During the early part of the conference it was discovered that this young man had been born of a teenage mother and had three young children himself by teenage mothers. He could not read and had an alcohol problem. The girls explained why they felt so strongly about their flat being burgled and everyone was in tears. The agreement was that the young man should be put through a drug treatment course, taught to read and put on an Alcoholics Anonymous course. As he left, and there was a spirit of hope in the room, one of the young women said to him, “Furthermore, will you write to us every month to tell us how you’re getting on?”, which I thought was an extremely good addition. They left in a spirit of hope and I then said to the governor of Pentonville, who was there, “How much of that can you deliver?”. He said, “None”. I said, “How dare you let those people go? Unless you can support what is being recommended, all the hope engendered by this process is dead”.

Therefore, if, as I hope, the Government accept these amendments, I hope they will add the rider that those who are responsible for staging the conferences and seeing that they happen must make certain that what is agreed actually happens, so that the whole process is not undermined.