Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Lord Thomas of Gresford Excerpts

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bach]

The noble Lord is being a bit unfair towards Charles Dickens himself. I may be wrong about this, but I think he put the expression, “The law is an ass”, in the mouth of Mr Bumble in Oliver Twist. He is hardly the most sympathetic character in the whole of Dickens.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I shall add that he was saying it in the context of a married woman, who had no separate identity in those days. She was regarded as a part of her husband.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

Hear, hear!

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I do not know if my noble friend is agreeing with the proposition, but in these more enlightened days we would all agree that the law on that particular aspect was an ass.

[Lord McNally]

I live and learn. I shall make the point, though, that the phrase, “The law is an ass”, is used more widely than just in terms of the marital relations referred to by my noble friend Lord Thomas. But I digress.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McNally]

If there is anybody I take even more notice of in these matters than my noble friend Lady Linklater, it is my noble friend Lord Dholakia. I will take away that suggestion. As I said, we are looking at the question of expenses in helping to grease the wheels of better liaison. If my noble friend’s suggestion is feasible, I am sure that we can take it forward. I will certainly take it away and think about it.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I would be interested if the Minister could encourage the presiding judges of each circuit around the country to carry out an audit of what the situation is in their particular circuit. The presiding judges have a great deal of influence and control over the way that the judicial system works within their bailiwick. Requiring each presiding judge to be in charge of such an investigation is a better way to go about it than starting from the centre—from London—and working outward.

[Lord McNally]

I am not sure what my powers are in instructing, advising or making requests of presiding judges. I suspect that the present Lord Chief Justice might start breathing down my neck. I note what my noble friend has suggested and I will take that back to think about.