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Oral Answers to Questions
(3 years, 6 months ago)
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Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con)
The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work (Justin Tomlinson)
Our new JETS scheme has started rolling out across the country and blasted off in my hon. Friend’s constituency on 5 October. The scheme has £238 million of funding that is dedicated to helping people who have been out of work for three or more months and may be at risk of long-term unemployment. JETS will see a variety of providers work at our local jobcentre networks to offer a range of bespoke services, including important advice on how people can move into new, growing sectors, as well as help with CV building and interview coaching.
Miriam Cates
I am glad that the scheme is already helping my constituents in Penistone and Stocksbridge, many of whom are now struggling to find work as a result of the pandemic. However, getting people back into work will require a national effort, so will he provide a broader update on the roll-out of the scheme?
Justin Tomlinson
My hon. Friend is right to suggest that tackling the impacts of covid will require a national effort, and the DWP stands ready to deliver this with our network of local jobcentres, which we will be expanding. The JETS scheme started two weeks ago and is now live right across England and Wales, and we are contracting anew in Scotland. We anticipate that as JETS continues to roll out across Great Britain, it will help 280,000 of our claimants to find work and build the skills to pivot into new sectors if required.
Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Dr Thérèse Coffey)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question, because he gives me the opportunity to highlight again what we are doing to help people in the sectors worst affected by the covid-19 outbreak. I have worked with my colleagues across government in forming and delivering our £30 billion plan for jobs to increase employment support, protect jobs and create new opportunities. He will be aware of the kickstart scheme, which particularly focuses on young people, but we will continue to help people of all ages to get back into work.
Chris Elmore
May I raise the specific issue of the support that is available to single parents when their child has to self-isolate? They are not able to claim statutory sick pay if their child is having to self-isolate at school age. In addition, if they were to apply for universal credit, they would have to restart the process each and every time. I have constituents who have had to self-isolate on multiple occasions because their school-age children have been told they have to stay at home and cannot stay at home on their own. Can the Secretary of State either tell me now, or come back to me on it in writing, what specific support can be directed towards constituents who need that additional support as single parents?
Dr Coffey
I will certainly ask the Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work to look into that detailed issue on SSP. If a person is required to self-isolate as a consequence of somebody in their household having symptoms, then, in my view, they should be eligible for SSP. But given that it is such a legal and technical issue, I will ask my hon. Friend to write to the hon. Gentleman specifically.
Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) [V]
Ending the furlough scheme early is going to put livelihoods at risk, so will the Secretary of State provide an update on her discussions with the Treasury about extending the covid-related increase to universal credit and ensuring that it is expanded to legacy benefits? While she is in those discussions, will she raise extending the furlough scheme and ask that the covid self-isolation grants be tax-exempt, as called for by the Social Security Secretary in Scotland, Shirley-Ann Somerville?
Dr Coffey
There are multiple questions there. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor has already responded by introducing the new job support scheme, which he updated for particular sectors, thinking of tier 3 in England, to extend even further the furlough scheme. It is clear that this Government are doing what is needed. In terms of the other things that the hon. Gentleman mentions, he will be aware that I continue to have regular discussions with my Treasury colleagues on the best way that we can help to support people during this pandemic.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Will Quince)
This Government’s unprecedented support package has supported the poorest working households the most, with Her Majesty’s Treasury’s analysis showing that the poorest 10% of working households have seen no income reduction, owing to the fast action taken by this Government in responding to the pandemic, including a £9.3 billion injection into the welfare system.
Alison McGovern
The problem with the Minister’s answer is that this crisis is only revealing problems with policies that we knew were there already. Members of this House are against it; members of faith communities are against it; leading charities are against it; and now Marcus Rashford is campaigning against it. So what is the Minister going to do to end the two-child policy for universal credit once and for all?
Will Quince
The two-child policy in universal credit is one of fundamental fairness, and it means that those who are in receipt of benefits should be in the same position as those who are not. I am not a particular football fan, but I certainly know Marcus Rashford’s name now, and I congratulate him on his MBE. We welcome the establishment of the taskforce and will carefully consider its recommendations as we approach the spending review.
Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab)
We already know that child poverty rates have been rising across north-west England, and that is before the economic impact of the restrictions consequent upon tier 3. The Chancellor talks about the way that the job support scheme and universal credit protect income, saying that it leaves households with 90% of their income, but many households will get nothing like that, and those who lose their jobs entirely sometimes go on to universal credit at 30% of income. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of the restrictions on child poverty in the north-west and how that compares with a local furlough scheme that protects all jobs that are at risk?
Will Quince
I will look carefully at the points that the hon. Lady raises, but I stress that this Government have implemented an unprecedented support package, including the job retention scheme and the self-employment income support scheme, which has helped families to cope with the financial impact of covid-19. For those most in need, we strengthened the welfare system with an additional £9 billion this year. That is in addition to the around £5 billion increase to benefit rates as part of the 2020-21 uprating, including around £400 million more on children’s benefits.
Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con)
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
Mark Fletcher (Bolsover) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mims Davies) [V]
This Government are working hard to help people into work with our £30 billion plan for jobs. Kickstart will provide a high-quality paid work placement for young people across the UK, and our new job entry targeted support scheme—JETS—will help those who have been unemployed for more than three months move into new and growing sectors. Our additional job finding support service will provide targeted support for the newly unemployed, with local provisions available now and a national contract due in place from 21 January.
Elliot Colburn
In Carshalton and Wallington, we know that the self-employed are the risk takers, and the pandemic has shown that we need to be there for them. Work coaches have done a good job of knowing what is fair and reasonable and are able to apply discretion when setting work search requirements, so will my hon. Friend assure me that self-employed claimants will also benefit from this personalised, discretionary approach as the minimum income floor is reintroduced?
Mims Davies
I can assure my hon. Friend that claimants will always be contacted before the minimum income floor is applied to them. Universal credit claimants who were subject to the minimum income floor prior to the pandemic will be given the opportunity to review their self-employment status and activity, ensuring that their current circumstances are reflected and their business continues to be viable before any reintroduction of the MIF. My hon. Friend will be aware that the regulations to relax the MIF are in place until November, and I will update the House on arrangements beyond that in due course.
Jason McCartney
I joined my caseworker on a recent covid-safe visit to Huddersfield jobcentre, which is rolling out a seven-day-a-week operation to support jobseekers. Will the Minister join me in thanking all the team at Huddersfield jobcentre and continue to give them all the support required as they recruit the extra staff they need to support my constituents into work via kickstart and other schemes?
Mims Davies
I am more than happy to extend my great thanks to the DWP team in Huddersfield, as well as their new colleagues. They have done sterling work in setting up a new youth hub with Kirklees Council, as well as other activities involving kickstart, using sector-based work academy programmes—SWAPs—and mentoring circles and working with local employers to help more people in Huddersfield back into work.
Mark Fletcher
Does the Minister share my concern that young people in Bolsover and elsewhere are at risk of being held back by the coronavirus pandemic? Will she commit to doing everything possible to ensure that opportunities are available to enable them to move forward in their careers and ensure that they reach their potential?
Mims Davies
In September 2020, we started the implementation of our new DWP youth offer for all 18 to 24-year-olds making a claim for universal credit who are in the intensive work search group. We are on track in our ambitious plan for young people to open around 100 DWP-led youth hubs nationally, and many are already in place, supporting our young people to progress.
Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Guy Opperman) [V]
As my hon. Friend knows, we want safer, better and greener pensions. This Government were the first in a G7 country to legislate for net zero by 2050. We lead the way on environmental regulation of pensions, and we are introducing transparency of climate-related financial disclosures in the Pension Schemes Bill that require schemes to take account of climate change goals, including net zero.
Christian Wakeford
I thank the Minister for his response. Climate change is the single biggest threat not only to mankind, but to the planet. Does he agree with me that if we are to meet the climate change targets set out in the Paris agreement, more needs to be done to ensure that large financial institutions, including institutional investors such as pension funds, channel more investment into areas that do not actively harm our environment and contribute to climate change?
Guy Opperman
I agree with my hon. Friend. The Government are setting a regulatory framework and enabling pension funds to make sustainable investments happen, whether that is through the Bill itself or through our illiquid investments proposals, which will see renewables, hydrogen and potentially new nuclear. We do not believe in divestment, but we welcome the change in investment practice that is already beginning to take place, although we want to see more.
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab) [V]
With David Attenborough urging pension funds to move away from fossil fuels, it is hugely welcome that the Government have joined Labour to incorporate in legislation, for the first time ever, climate change commitments on pension funds. Now we must translate our ambitions into action. Previously, the Minister has received positively our proposal for a pension fund summit. Will he now agree to work with us—across party and bringing together the world of pensions to save our planet—to organise a cross-party climate change summit, because this is the biggest form of investment potentially worldwide in climate change pension funds?
Guy Opperman
As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are already working with a large number of pension funds and also with companies. We all want to see a safer, better and greener pension system. I am happy to work with him on an ongoing basis, and I am happy to reach out on a collaborative basis on this particular issue, which matters to all of us.
Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con)
Mark Jenkinson (Workington) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Will Quince)
My Department continually reviews its processes and the service it provides to claimants using a long-standing test and learn approach. In July, we introduced a two-week run-on of DWP income-related benefits, which is in addition to the existing two-week extension of housing benefit that is already payable to eligible claimants. Claimants who believe they may be better off on universal credit should check their eligibility before applying, as legacy benefits will end when they submit their claim and they will not be able to return to them in the future.
Jo Gideon
I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. With difficult times ahead for Stoke-on-Trent families hit by the economic downturn caused by coronavirus, does my hon. Friend agree that it is more important than ever for universal credit to offer any necessary flexibility to ensure people get the support they need to return to work, particularly those affected by local lockdown restrictions?
Will Quince
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. Universal credit is designed to support people into work. It supports those who need help and is fair to everyone who pays for it. Throughout the pandemic many, sadly, have lost their jobs or seen their incomes reduced. Thankfully, universal credit and the Government’s £9.3 billion investment in the welfare safety net have been there to help catch many of those affected, and that has been vital for the 3 million people who have made a benefit claim since March.
Mark Jenkinson
Our plan for jobs will help people get the skills they need at every stage of their lives and delivers on our promise to level up opportunity across the country. Work coaches will play a crucial role in delivering that agenda and helping people back into work, so will my hon. Friend join me in paying tribute to the brilliant work coaches of Workington jobcentre, and commit to increasing the number of work coaches across the jobcentre network?
Will Quince
I too pay tribute to the brilliant work coaches in Workington Jobcentre Plus, who I know have done an incredible job in particular around partnership working, and I can point to the Maryport GP surgery outreach work, the youth hub, the sector-based work academy programmes and the virtual mentoring circle by Workington jobcentre. That is brilliant work and, yes, I can absolutely confirm that we are investing £895 million in doubling the number of work coaches and Jobcentre Pluses by March 2021.
Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab) [V]
The £20-a-week uplift to universal credit has been a lifeline for many during the pandemic, yet this vital extra support continues to be denied to legacy benefit claimants, many of whom are disabled. I raised this with Ministers in the Chamber on 11 May, again on 29 June and yet again on 14 September, each time getting a non-answer. To date, the uplift could have given legacy benefit claimants £600 of extra support. Minister, can we please have a straight answer today: will anything be done to rectify this?
Will Quince
The hon. Lady is right is that she has asked this question on three occasions, and she has had three answers. The legacy benefits were increased by 1.7% in April 2020, following the Government’s announcement to end the benefit freeze. It has always been the case that claimants on legacy benefits can make a claim for universal credit if they believe that they will be better off. There are special arrangements for those in receipt of the severe disability premium, who will be able to make a new claim to UC from January 2021. But it is important—I stress this—that claimants should check their eligibility before applying to universal credit as legacy benefits will end when they submit their claim and they will not be able to return to them in the future.
Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab)
Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mims Davies) [V]
Evidence suggests that active labour market policies can be even more effective during recessions. We will continue to encourage claimants to prepare and look for work where it is safe to do so. Claimants will not be subject to conditionality until they have agreed a new or updated claimant commitment. We firmly believe the best way to support claimants is through empowered work coaches who engage proactively with claimants to help them identify the options they need to build on their skills, increase their confidence and return to employment.
Kim Johnson
Non-existent jobs. Liverpool has had the second highest unemployment increase in the country since March 2020. Our claimant rate has more than doubled from 12,000 to 32,000, and we now have the highest unemployment rate in the country. There are a further 27,000 people on furlough in our closed hospitality sector who will either be let go or have to survive on 67% of their wages come November. With benefits sanctions being reintroduced and welfare conditionality being reinstated, what evidence do the Government have that this is benefiting claimants and preventing a return to the high unemployment of the ’80s?
Mims Davies
I stress to the hon. Lady that sanctions are only used when claimants fail to meet their conditionality requirements without good reason. As I said in my previous responses, work coaches will work to ensure that any requirements set are reasonable, taking into account the claimant’s circumstances and, crucially, the situation in the local labour market, while allowing them to adhere also to public health advice. We are absolutely determined to help people back into work, giving them the power to do that, and the way we can do that locally in Liverpool is through the flexible support fund and other measures.
Jeff Smith
In Manchester, Withington there are 3,000 more people needing to claim unemployment benefits than this time last year, and unemployment is rising and will get worse at the end of the furlough scheme, so there are not 3,000 jobs for those people to go to. Suspending sanctions and welfare conditionality was the right thing to do in the crisis, but we are still in that crisis. Does the Minister not accept that we need to be more supportive and less punitive at the moment?
Mims Davies
I hope the hon. Gentleman and his constituents will acknowledge that, despite the reintroduction of conditionality and sanctions, we fully recognise that these are difficult times. New jobs are being created in the digital, green and logistical sectors that can be carried out safely in line with social distancing and public health rules. There is a recognition that in some sectors there will be challenges, while in others there are opportunities, but we will always make sure that jobcentres respond suitably to local alert levels and always set that conditionality in line with individuals, helping them to progress and always listening to them; if they have a good reason and cannot adhere, we will support them and take that individual approach.
Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)
In July, the Government chose to reinstate benefit sanctions and conditionality, against the advice of experts. We are now in the covid second wave, with businesses closing, unemployment rising and vacancies halved since March, but last week the Government said that the clinically extremely vulnerable and those they live with could have their benefits cut if they refuse a job that puts them at risk from the virus. Is that really the Government’s policy? Is it not time to end the threats and re-suspend benefit sanctions, or are we no longer in this together?
Mims Davies
I understand the hon. Lady’s point, but if someone cannot work and must stay at home, there are ways of getting additional support, and I would urge anybody concerned to use the benefits calculator on gov.uk. I again remind the House that work coaches will always work to ensure that requirements are reasonable, always taking into account the claimant’s circumstances and the situation in the local labour market, and continuing to adhere to public health advice. Claimants who fail to meet the conditionality requirements without good reason may be sanctioned, but as I say, the rates are extraordinarily low—in fact, they have never been lower—and we are determined to help people back into work with the right individual support, based on their individual circumstances.
Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Dr Thérèse Coffey)
The 2020-21 universal credit increase was included in a package of welfare measures worth around £9.3 billion this year to help people with the financial consequences of what has happened with the covid-19 pandemic. I continue to work with the Treasury on the best ways to support those receiving benefits. I share the view of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor that we must act in a way that recognises social justice, and that is the motivation of those on the Government Benches.
Rosie Cooper [V]
Does the Secretary of State still intend to end the suspension of the minimum income floor for self-employed universal credit claimants, which is due to expire on 13 November?
Dr Coffey
That policy is still under review. Clearly, this is a matter of discussion, because the regulations do come to an end. It is important to recognise that we have different measures happening around different parts of the country. We do need to try to take a national approach to the overall policy, but as ever, we trust and empower our work coaches to make the best decisions for the claimants they are helping, usually to help them get back into work.
Mr Speaker
I call the Chair of the Select Committee on Work and Pensions, Stephen Timms.
Stephen Timms
The Select Committee’s report published today calls for new starter payments to claimants of universal credit to help tide them over the very difficult five-week wait for their first regular benefit payment, and for the £20 a week increase, which the Secretary of State has referred to, to be made permanent. How can it possibly be justified for people claiming jobseeker’s allowance and employment and support allowance to receive £20 a week less than people in identical circumstances who happen to be claiming universal credit?
Dr Coffey
On what happened with legacy benefits and universal credit, I think the rationale was set out clearly at the time; in particular, it was also about having a rate that was quite similar to statutory sick pay. We will look carefully at the report that the right hon. Gentleman and his Committee have issued to us today, but I remind him that of course people do not need to wait five weeks for a universal credit payment; they can get a payment within a matter of days, and that payment is then spread over the entire year.
Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP)
Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)
The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work (Justin Tomlinson)
Earlier this year, we suspended face-to-face assessments. That suspension is still in place and is kept under review in line with the latest public health guidance.
Owen Thompson
The Joseph Rowntree Foundation estimates that 1.3 million people across Scotland will lose out if the DWP does not make the £20 increase to universal credit permanent and extend it to legacy benefits. The Resolution Foundation also reports that one in three working-age families in the so-called red wall constituencies will be £1,000 a year worse off if the planned cuts to universal credit go ahead. How exactly is that levelling up?
Justin Tomlinson
I refer the hon. Member the answer that the Minister for Welfare Delivery has already given. The Government have introduced a package of temporary welfare measures worth £9.3 billion this year to help with the financial consequences of the pandemic.
Kirsten Oswald [V]
More than ever, with millions facing unemployment and reduced hours or earnings, our social security system must be properly funded. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation has rightly pointed out that cutting social security takes money out of the economy by reducing consumer spending. If the Minister is not yet convinced that cutting universal credit is grossly unjust, will he at least consider making this permanent to stimulate the economy?
Justin Tomlinson
As I have just set out, we as a Government, through our £9.3 billion-worth of temporary support, which we continue to keep under review, have shown throughout these unprecedented times that we will be flexible and provide the support, including our comprehensive £30 billion plan for jobs, to make sure that we are standing side by side with those who are navigating the challenges of covid.
Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Will Quince)
There are currently no plans to extend the suspension of benefit deductions. Action to restart deductions commenced on 6 July and should be completed by mid-November. We recognise that there will be some people who may be experiencing financial difficulty, and anyone unable to afford the rate of recovery proposed is encouraged to contact the Department.
Peter Aldous
I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. These suspensions have provided a lifeline to many vulnerable people over the last six months. Unfortunately, there is at present no reason to believe that we will be in a better position in April 2021 than we were in April 2020, thus I urge my hon. Friend to consider extending the suspensions and working with local authorities to put in place fair local support arrangements that will operate in conjunction with the national welfare system and complement the Chancellor’s initiatives to get people back to work.
Will Quince
It is right that those claimants who owe the Department money are able to resume payments to reduce their debt. We continue to apply a flexible approach to recovery and endeavour to recover without causing undue financial hardship. Anyone unable to afford the rate of recovery proposed is encouraged to contact the Department so that an affordable rate of repayment can be negotiated. In May, we will be launching the breathing space scheme to help to prevent problem debt and provide support to people who fall into that problem debt.
Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mims Davies) [V]
Our plan for jobs includes suitable interventions for people of all ages to support people back into work, including employment support delivered by our jobcentres, where we are doubling the number of work coaches across our national network. Last week, I held my latest meeting with our older workers champion, alongside employer organisations, focused on our fuller working lives agenda and opportunities for the over-50s.
Tom Randall
In the current pandemic, people of all ages are suddenly being made redundant. I was recently contacted by a 57-year-old constituent in Gedling, who is now looking for work and retraining. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is particularly important to help this sector of the population, and what help can I offer to my constituent to ensure that her skills are utilised?
Mims Davies
I thank my hon. Friend for raising this concern in his constituency. I assure him that the Government recently announced, in the plan for jobs, new funding to ensure that more people, including our older workers, get tailored Jobcentre Plus support to help them to find work and build the skills they need to get into new work, including the sector-based work academy programme and our new online job-finding support service. On 29 September, the Prime Minister announced a major expansion of post-18 education and training to prepare all workers for a post-covid economy, including a lifetime skills guarantee to give adults the chance to take free college courses by valued local employers.
Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con)
The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work (Justin Tomlinson)
By law, benefit levels must be reviewed annually to determine if they are at the appropriate level. The most recent review resulted in the uprating of 1.7%. On disability benefits specifically, spending this year has increased by almost 5% from £19 billion to £20 billion.
Dr James Davies
Recently, I was pleased to meet my constituent, Tony Davies, who sadly lives with motor neurone disease. On behalf of Tony and the MND Association community, will the Minister kindly announce when he is likely to publish the outcome of the review into access to benefits for the terminally ill?
Justin Tomlinson
We have been clear, following our comprehensive review, that there will be three themes: we will change the six-month rule, we will improve consistency and we will raise awareness of the support available. Only last week, I met the MND Association and the Minister for Prevention, Public Health and Primary Care as we work at great speed to bring forward those much-needed changes.
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Will Quince)
The latest statistics from 2018-19 show that the rates and numbers of people in absolute poverty were lower than in 2010. Since those statistics were published, we have injected a further £9.3 billion into our welfare system, including an increase to universal credit of up to £1,040 for this financial year.
Alan Brown
The reality is that that is not enough. Thanks to the efforts of the Scottish Government to mitigate the worst impacts of austerity, Scotland has the lowest child poverty rates, but the impact of UK Government policies means that 4,600 children in my constituency are estimated to be living in poverty, which is absolutely shameful. Will the Minister listen to the calls of the End Child Poverty coalition and the likes of Macmillan Cancer Support and pledge to keep the £20 a week universal credit uplift to avoid putting more families and children into poverty?
Will Quince
One child in poverty is one child too many. We at the Department are continuing to work with Her Majesty’s Treasury and other Government Departments to monitor the evolving economic and labour market situation and identify the most effective ways to help people to stay in or close to work, both now and in future. It is important to stress that Her Majesty’s Treasury published a distributional analysis that assessed the impact of covid-19 on incomes compared with the incomes of working households in May 2020. That analysis showed that the Government’s interventions have supported the poorest households the most.
Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con)
The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work (Justin Tomlinson)
As a Government, we are proud that 1.3 million more disabled people are in work since 2013—a record high. We continue to offer support through the Work and Health, intensive personalised employment support, Disability Confident and Access to Work programmes.
Rob Butler
The disability employment gap in my constituency is 25.4% and there are concerns that it will widen as the economy suffers from the impact of covid-19. What reassurance can the Minister give me that disabled people will get the specific help they need to find work —for example, through tailored support or the funding of reasonable adjustments on the kickstart scheme?
Justin Tomlinson
It is absolutely the case that Access to Work is available and works hand in hand with schemes such as kickstart so that reasonable adjustments can be made for disabled employees. I have written to Disability Confident leaders to encourage them to sign up to kickstart.
Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Will Quince)
During the pandemic, several economic support measures have been announced by the Chancellor, including supporting the retention of 9.6 million jobs through the furlough scheme. Additionally, 2.2 million individuals have claimed £5.6 billion under the second self-employment income support scheme grant announced by the Chancellor as part of his winter economic plan. The Department has spent £9.3 billion on additional support, including the increase of the universal credit standard allowance by £20 a week. Together, those measures provide a safety net for almost everyone who needs it, but eligibility for the different support packages is set out clearly on gov.uk.
Mr Davis [V]
Small businesses account for about 13 million people employed, which is about 60% of the workforce, and many of them are in trouble. When I spoke this weekend to ForgottenLtd, which represents people who are not in receipt of benefit, it told me that its latest survey showed that 70% of its members receive no benefit whatsoever. Do the Government intend to do something about that? If so, will the Minister meet me to discuss the criteria for improvement?
Will Quince
I know that my right hon. Friend has campaigned hard on the subject. The question may be better directed at the Chancellor of the Exchequer or Ministers from Her Majesty’s Treasury, as I know he has also done.
Universal credit is an in-work and out-of-work benefit. It is also available for those who are self-employed. As the Secretary of State set out in her letter to the Work and Pensions Committee last month, we plan to proceed with the reinstatement of the minimum income floor, and claimants will be contacted as it is reinstated for them. Notwithstanding my right hon. Friend’s point, more than £13 billion of support has already been provided for more than 2.6 million self-employed individuals through the first two stages of the self-employment income support scheme and the scheme has now been extended.
Sarah Jones (Croydon Central) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Will Quince)
The Department does not take benefit fraud lightly, and we are committed to using the full range of powers and penalties at our disposal. As part of our response to covid-19, we have established our integrated risk and intelligence service to prevent high-risk claims from going into payment. Our investigations have successfully led us to correct and suspend serious and organised claims fraud in large numbers, and we continue to review our processes and to anticipate new attacks, which will make it even harder for people to defraud the taxpayer in the future.
Sarah Jones
A constituent of mine, a mother of three children, recently had her universal credit and housing benefit stopped for over two months because of a fraudulent claim made in her name. She was completely innocent, but she and her young family suffered significant financial hardship. We know that benefit fraud, in universal credit in particular, is increasing, and I know of several other MPs who have had similar cases. What will the Government do to stop innocent families suffering for months just because this Government are failing to detect and investigate fraud?
Will Quince
I would be very happy to meet the hon. Lady to receive more details about that individual case, but first let me apologise, because that should not have happened. In effect, Ministers had to make decisions about the redeployment of staff in order to process the unprecedented number of claims, which went up from 2.2 million to 5.7 million claims. That meant deploying staff away from counter-fraud and into the processing of claims, but I am pleased to say that that has now changed and more staff are going back into fraud. We have to take fraud incredibly seriously, because it is individuals such as the hon. Lady’s constituent who are often the target of serious organised crime.
Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mims Davies) [V]
The latest official statistics show the level of employment at 32.6 million. We recognise that there are difficult times ahead, but our ambitious £30 billion plan for jobs will support people during this next phase of our recovery as we push to build back better and greener. We are working with other Government Departments, external organisations and our local partners to support people into work, to react to changes in local labour markets and to work with our local Jobcentre Plus provision to help communities to thrive.
Emma Hardy
When one of my constituents, who was working as a cleaner, was recently furloughed, she was recommended to move to universal credit and away from working tax credit. I wrote to the Department on 7 July and again on 7 August. I have just had a reply, on 12 October, telling me that because my constituent earned £666.21 in a month, she was entitled to nothing whatsoever from universal credit. Not only that, but she had to repay the advance loan that she had had at the beginning. This system is failing her, and she is in a desperate situation. When will the Government look at allowing people to return to working tax credit and move away from this unfair system of universal credit?
Mims Davies
I thank the hon. Lady for raising what sounds like a concerning situation for that family. We recognise that we are currently in an unusual and challenging economic period, and I am sure that the Minister for welfare delivery, the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Will Quince), will have taken note of that particular case. I am sure we will be able to look at that once again, and I thank the hon. Lady for raising the matter.
Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mims Davies) [V]
This Government have made clear their commitment to supporting both paying and receiving parents, especially during this difficult period. Around three quarters of paying parents are paying towards their liability. The Child Maintenance Service will continue to pursue all cases where appropriate, and I stress that anyone found to be abusing the system risks being subject to the full extent of our enforcement powers.
Sir Robert Neill
I am sorry to say that the Minister’s words do not sit with the experience of some of my constituents, who feel that the Child Maintenance Service has failed them in pursuing outstanding claims. I shall give the House one example. In an appeal against a CMS decision to the tribunal in February, it was discovered that a private pension had not been disclosed. The CMS should therefore have recouped the shortfall, but there was no contact until May. When the CMS was asked how much it would recoup for my constituent, she again heard nothing until she got a letter saying that the CMS was writing off historic debt and would not pursue it. That is letting that person down, not supporting them.
Mims Davies
I thank my hon. Friend for raising this issue, and I stress that those found abusing the system are subject to the full extent of our enforcement powers. The CMS will pursue these people, where appropriate. Our key partners are in communication with us to make sure that we secure the appropriate court dates for cases impacted by the covid-19 pandemic and that we are establishing our full and normal range of enforcement services. Where payments have been missed we are taking action to re-establish compliance, and I am happy to look at the issue for him.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
Unfortunately, we have run out of time, so we are going straight on to topicals.
Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Dr Thérèse Coffey)
The Government’s new job support scheme being launched next month to protect viable jobs and businesses that are facing lower demand is yet another part of how my Department and the Government are standing ready to try to help people stay in work and to prepare to get back into work. [Interruption.] We will continue to do whatever it takes to make sure we are reaching people of all ages. In particular, I want to make sure that people who may newly be looking for support from the welfare state use the Government-funded help to claim service, administered by Citizens Advice. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order—apologies, Minister. Let me just say to the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) that there was not time to call him. There was another Member before him on the call list, so there was not a chance that I could have called him before moving on; I do apologise. If he wants to hang around, I will try to get him into topical questions if he wishes to speak.
Duncan Baker
I was pleased to see my right hon. Friend’s announcement that almost 1 million pensioners in receipt of pension credit will be receiving £140 off their energy bills through the warm home discount scheme. My constituency has a very elderly demographic, so that is a great lifeline for so many. Will she confirm that, alongside it, the Government will continue to make winter fuel payments to support our pensioners this winter?
Dr Coffey
My hon. Friend is absolutely correct, and I praise him for raising this issue on behalf of the many people he represents. This Government are committed to tackling fuel poverty, particularly among pensioners, and will continue to deliver winter fuel payments this year. I was pleased by the work done by my Department to make sure that those on pension credit, including in your constituency, Mr Speaker, received the £140 from the warm home discount scheme, without lifting a finger.
Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)
As the Government place millions of people across the country under new covid restrictions, they will be asking many people to undergo significant cuts to their income. Last week, the Prime Minister said that due to the job support scheme and universal credit
“nobody gets less than 93% of their current income.”—[Official Report, 14 October 2020; Vol. 682, c. 368.]
Unfortunately, that is just completely wrong. The reality is that a person employed by a business that the Government are ordering to close could still lose a third of their income, and for an unspecified length of time. Their rent, mortgages and food bills will not be any lower, so how does the Secretary of State expect those people to get by?
Dr Coffey
The Government have taken unprecedented action in the design of their new schemes, recognising that some businesses right around the country are still experiencing a loss in demand. As a consequence, we have developed two different schemes, one of which is “a third, a third, a third” in terms of helping people with their cost of living. Where we believe, in conjunction with local leadership, that it is the right thing for certain sectors to be closed in areas, the two-thirds support of wages is important. Of course if people do come under a certain threshold, they may well be eligible for UC, which would help top up their ongoing income during these difficult times.
Jonathan Reynolds
Secretary of State, this is important, because it is the barrier to additional restrictions being introduced. As the Government know, people who are eligible for the job support scheme and may be losing only a third of their income are, comparatively, the lucky ones, as people in receipt of UC or jobseeker’s allowance will be left on just a fraction of their current income. With that in mind, I have a straightforward question for her: it is clear that we are not going to be out of this crisis by April next year, so will the Government do the right thing and scrap their plans to cut UC to an even lower amount next April?
Dr Coffey
What is different from the regime we had earlier in the year is that then the strong message was very much for people to stay at home and retail was closed, along with a number of different sectors. That is not the case anymore: we have now had to intervene in a much more limited number of sectors, often in conjunction with the local leadership. As a consequence, we will continue to review the best ways to support people through the welfare system, as well as through the plan for jobs and the measures that the Chancellor has introduced.
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
Dr Coffey
One element of the kickstart scheme, a £2 billion investment in the future of our young people, is designed to help people to get on the first rung of the ladder with a proper job. It is a way for those people who have recently left school or university and are at risk of long-term unemployment to get experience and financing, which does not just have to be through private organisations and could be through local government or charitable or other sectors. It is a specific way to ensure that those people get not only a job but the extra training and wraparound support that they need to help them further on in their lives.
Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) [V]
For some time, the SNP has led the campaign to end the universal credit five-week wait. We think that is best done by the introduction of grants, so we welcome today’s Work and Pensions Committee report. We also agree with the idea of renaming advances as “new claim loans” to make clearer what they actually are. Will the Secretary of State look favourably on the report’s findings and accept its recommendations?
Dr Coffey
I will look carefully at the report. Select Committee members will know that I have spoken to them on previous occasions, as have other Ministers, to explain that advances are a way to spread the payment of universal credit over a year—in fact, in future it will be over two years, if that is how long people want to spread that initial support—and it is not our intention in any way to introduce a grant at the beginning. The grant is there in the benefits—that is exactly what they are there to do—so I do not see how we will be responding positively to the Committee’s report in that regard.
Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP)
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Will Quince)
The hon. Lady is absolutely right—this issue is a concern for me and has been for some time. I am working closely with my counterpart at MHCLG and would be delighted to meet the hon. Lady to discuss progress.
Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con)
Dr Coffey
My hon. Friend is right to point out that the kickstart placements are six-month-long jobs, but the skills that people will learn and the experience they will gain will put them in good stead to secure future employment. We are investing in our young people in recognition of this difficult time, but of course if they do not secure a permanent job at the end of that time—although the placements may be a gateway to apprenticeships and similar—we will continue to support them until they find a job.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work (Justin Tomlinson)
My hon. Friend is always a champion of his local organisations and constituents. Yes, absolutely; many local authorities, charities and organisations, such as North Yorkshire County Council, have agreed to act as gateways or have submitted bids for funding.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
Justin Tomlinson
The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. Our forthcoming Green Paper will look specifically at the importance of advocacy in the system, and at increasing it. That need should have been identified at the initial application. If he sends through the details, I will be happy to ensure that the claimant is not lost from the system.
Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)
Dr Coffey
My understanding is that the policy relates to people who have had child maintenance arrangements for a very long time. There comes a point when there is an element of understanding the different debts. My hon. Friend will be aware that, in a way, this is a very odd arrangement, with the state effectively becoming the arbiter between two parents. The only people who lose are the children. That is why I encourage everybody who has a responsibility towards their children—currently 111,000 children are owed £187 million by parents who refuse to pay up—to get on and do the right thing by them. We should not end up having to rely on the state to arbitrate between two parents.[Official Report, 16 November 2020, Vol. 684, c. 2MC.]
Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)
Dr Coffey
The £500 self-isolation payment administered by local councils was devised to achieve compliance with public health guidance. That is why the Department of Health and Social Care is leading on the matter. I am conscious that there may be local arrangements that need to be addressed. Often, the best way to tackle those is through the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, which has local funds that have been topped up by this Government to help with local welfare issues.
Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con) [V]
Dr Coffey
My hon. Friend is right to praise hard-working DWP staff at her local Jobcentre Plus and across the network. The team in Barnstaple have worked with the National Careers Service to help with interview technique and build transferable skills among people who become unemployed, and great work is already under way at the North Devon youth support hub in Bideford and Barnstaple. I look forward to visiting the south-west. As she knows, the DWP jobcentre is a covid-secure environment and I look forward to joining her there in due course.
Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD) [V]
Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab)
The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work (Justin Tomlinson)
I am very much aware of this. As the hon. Gentleman will understand, we suspended face-to-face assessments across all disability benefits following the public health guidance. We are working as quickly as we can to roll out telephone assessments for IIDB where possible, and as soon as it is safe to do so, we will return to face-to-face assessments.
Mr Speaker
In order to allow the safe exit of hon. Members participating in this item of business, and the safe arrival of those participating in the next, I am suspending the House for three minutes.
Petition
Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con)
I rise to present a petition on behalf of the residents of High Peak calling for a railway station to be built in Gamesley. My long-standing petition, both online and on paper, has received strong local support, with over 30% of Gamesley’s adult population signing it. The people of Gamesley were first promised a railway station 52 years ago. I believe it is time to deliver on that promise.
The petition states:
The petition of the residents of High Peak,
Declares that the people of Gamesley were promised a railway station in 1968 to help residents commute on the Manchester to Glossop line; notes that a railway station would improve local transport connections by easing parking pressures at Dinting, shortening commuting times to Manchester, and reducing traffic around Glossop and Tintwistle; and further declares that the cost of a railway station would be modest for the Government and transformative for the life chances of residents.
The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urge the Government to prioritise the reallocation of funds to build a railway station in Gamesley, transforming the lives of Gamesley’s residents.
And the petitioners remain, etc.
[P002611]
EU Exit: Negotiations and the Joint Committee
(3 years, 6 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office (Michael Gove)
With your permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to update the House on the Government’s negotiations with the European Union on our future trading relationship and also the work of the UK/EU Joint Committee established under the withdrawal agreement.
First, on the talks on the new trade agreement, we had hoped to conclude a Canada-style free trade agreement before the transition period ends on 31 December this year but, as things stand, that will not now happen. We remain absolutely committed to securing a Canada-style FTA, but there does need to be a fundamental change in approach from the EU if the process is to get back on track. I have come to the House at the first available opportunity to explain why and how we have reached this point.
We have been clear since the summer that we saw 15 October—last Thursday—as the target date for reaching an agreement with the EU. The Prime Minister and the Commission President Ursula von der Leyen agreed on 3 October that our negotiating team should work intensively to bridge the remaining gaps between us, and we made clear that we were willing to talk every day. But I have to report to the House that this intensification was not forthcoming. The EU was willing to conduct negotiations only on fewer than half the days available and would not engage on all of the outstanding issues. Moreover, the EU refused to discuss legal texts in any area, as it has done since the summer. Indeed, it is almost incredible to our negotiators that we have reached this point in the negotiations without any common legal texts of any kind.
On 15 October, the EU Heads of State and Government gathered for the European Council. The conclusions of that Council reaffirmed the EU’s original negotiating mandate. They dropped a reference to intensive talks that had been in the draft and they declared that all—all—future moves in the negotiation had to be made by the UK. Although some attempts were made to soften that message by some EU leaders, the European Council reaffirmed those conclusions as authoritative on Friday. That unfortunate sequence of events has, in effect, ended the trade negotiations because it leaves no basis on which we can actually find agreement. There is no point in negotiations proceeding as long as the EU sticks with that position. Such talks would be meaningless and would take us no nearer to finding a workable solution.
That is the situation we now face, and that is why the Prime Minister had to make it clear on 16 October that the EU had refused to negotiate seriously for much of the past month or so. The EU had now, at the European Council, explicitly ruled out a free trade agreement with us, like the one that it has with Canada, and therefore this country should get ready for 1 January 2021 with arrangements that are more like Australia’s, based on simple principles of global free trade.
Now, if the EU wants to change that situation—and I devoutly hope it will—it needs to make a fundamental change in its approach and make clear it has done so. It has to be serious about talking intensively on all issues and trying to reach a conclusion, and I hope it will. But it also needs to accept that it is dealing with an independent and sovereign country now. We have tried to be clear from the start that we would not be able to reach an agreement inconsistent with that status. I do not think that we could be accused of keeping that a secret. Yet the proposals that the EU has discussed with us in recent weeks, which it presents as compromises, are simply not consistent with our new sovereign status—certainly not yet.
While I do not doubt that many on the EU side are well intentioned, we cannot accept the negotiators’ proposals that would require us to provide full, permanent access to our fishing waters, with quotas substantially unchanged to those that were imposed by EU membership. We cannot operate a state aid system which is essentially the same as the EU’s, with great discretion given to the EU to retaliate against us if it thought that we were deviating from it. More broadly, we cannot accept an arrangement that means that we stay in step with laws that have been proposed and adopted by the EU across areas of critical national importance.
In a nutshell, we have been asking for no more than what has been offered in trade agreements to other global trading countries, such as Canada—terms that, of course, the EU said last year it had no difficulty offering to us. We are not even asking for special favours reflecting our 45 years as a member state—during which we paid in every day more than we took out—quite the reverse. But even if this new arrangement is impossible for the EU, I must inform the House that we will be leaving on 31 December on Australian-style terms and trading on the basis of WTO rules.
With just 10 weeks left until the end of the transition period, I have to emphasise that that is not my preferred outcome and nor is it the Prime Minister’s. We recognise that there will be some turbulence, but we have not come so far to falter now, when we are so close to reclaiming our sovereignty. We have to be in control of our own borders and our fishing grounds. We have to set our own laws. We have to be free to thrive as an independent free trading nation, embracing the freedoms that flow as a result. So it is important that I turn to the preparations that we are now intensifying for the end of the transition period. These apply whether we have a free trade agreement or otherwise, of course.
I am not blithe or blasé about the challenges ahead, particularly given the additional problems that we have dealing with the covid-19 pandemic. However, leaving the EU on Australian terms is an outcome for which we are increasingly well prepared. Ever since the UK decided it would leave the single market and the customs union on 31 December, Government and businesses alike have been working hard to prepare for the new procedures that were the inevitable result. I congratulate businesses on the resourcefulness they have shown so far. We want to work with them so that they continue responding as energetically, flexibly and imaginatively as possible to the challenges of change. We also want to work with them to prepare for the opportunities ahead, including those stemming from our new free trade deals, such as the agreement with Japan struck by the Secretary of State for International Trade, which, of course, grants us far more favourable access to the world’s third biggest economy than we had as an EU member.
I would like to put on record my particular thanks to the road haulage industry, customs intermediaries and others for their constructive engagement with Government, including at our extensive roundtable last week.
This week, the Prime Minister and I will be speaking again to business leaders to discuss preparations for life outside the EU. We will continue to listen to their concerns, and we will redouble our efforts to help them to adjust and prosper. The XO Cabinet Committee—the EU Exit Operations Committee—meets daily and will intensify its operational focus on business readiness. We continue to work closely with our partners in the devolved Administrations because we want to ensure that every part of the UK is ready for the end of the transition period.
In these final 10 weeks, we are intensifying our public information campaign. Every firm will find the information it needs on new rules which govern trade between Britain and the EU at gov.uk/transition. Today, HMRC is writing to 200,000 traders that do business with the EU to reinforce their understanding of the new customs and tax rules. We are also putting in place IT systems to help goods flow across borders. We are giving business access to customs professionals to help with new ways of working and we have also planned how to fast-track vital goods in the first few weeks to get around EU bureaucracies. We have already published and indeed updated our border operating model. We have announced £705 million-worth of investment in jobs, infrastructure and technology at the border. We have also strengthened our maritime security to protect our fishing fleets and safeguard our seas.
In addition to the steps we are taking, we are also continuing our work with the EU in the Withdrawal Agreement Joint Committee. I would like to update the House on its latest meeting, which took place earlier this morning. Coming only three weeks after the last meeting, I am pleased to report that in this forum the approach from the EU is very constructive. There is a clear imperative on both sides to find solutions and we remain committed to working collaboratively with the EU through the Joint Committee process.
At our last meeting in Brussels I agreed with my co-chair, Vice-President Šefčovič, that we would intensify discussions to implement the withdrawal agreement, primarily around citizens’ rights and the Northern Ireland protocol. Our officials have since held numerous sessions and today in London I reiterated the UK’s commitment to upholding all our obligations under both the withdrawal agreement and the Belfast agreement. We agreed that we will publish a joint update on citizens’ rights and I am pleased to confirm that almost 4 million EU citizens in the UK have now received status under our scheme. We have also discussed our work to implement the Northern Ireland protocol. We are taking steps to implement new agrifood arrangements. We also acknowledge the EU’s concerns about appropriate monitoring of implementation. We now have a better understanding of its requests and the reasoning behind them. We have confirmed that the specialised committee will work intensively to ensure that we can make progress in this area, and with respect to Gibraltar and the sovereign base issues.
A lot remains to be resolved before the end of December, but we have made substantial progress on implementation. I look forward to further engagement with Vice-President Šefčovič in the weeks ahead. I want to put on record my personal appreciation for the constructive tone and the pragmatic spirit with which he and his team have approached our discussions.
In his statement on Friday, the Prime Minister looked ahead to 2021 as a year of recovery and renewal when this Government will be focused on tackling covid-19 and building back better. We are getting ready to do now what the British people asked of us: to forge our own path and not to acquiesce to anyone else’s agenda. On the negotiations, our door is not closed. It remains ajar, and I very much hope that the EU will fundamentally change its position, but, come what may, on 31 December, we will take back control. I commend this statement to the House.
Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for advance sight of his statement this afternoon.
At the last general election, the Prime Minister said that he had an oven-ready deal ready to go. The withdrawal agreement was the starter course, but we are still waiting for the main meal: a trade agreement with the European Union. At the weekend, the right hon. Gentleman was reminded of some of his previous remarks in 2016 when he assured the country that the one thing that will not change is our ability to trade freely with Europe. Even at this late stage, Labour expects the Government to reach an agreement with the European Union that honours that commitment. It is a question of competence and it is a question of trust; it is what this Government promised the British people.
Of course we were supposed to have a deal by now. This is the third deadline that the Prime Minister has set himself, and it is the third deadline that the Prime Minister has missed. Initially, he said that a deal with the EU would be sorted by July. Then he said by September, and then he said by last week. Will the right hon. Gentleman explain to the House why the Government find it so hard to meet their own deadlines and so hard to achieve their own promises?
Yesterday, when the Minister toured the television studios, he was asked what the chances were now of securing a deal, and he said it was less than two thirds. Can he tell businesses and this House the current probability, given that he has just said that events have, in effect, ended the trade negotiations? Over the past three days, we have heard more posturing than solutions, more excuses and explanations. It is time for the Government to take responsibility.
Of course everyone needs to prepare as best they can, but it is a bit rich for the Government to lecture businesses on getting ready when the Government cannot even tell them what they are getting ready for. Let us be clear: if the talks have run out of road, many industries will face prohibitive tariffs—from 10% for exporting cars to at least 40% for exporting lamb—to Britain’s biggest market in just 10 weeks’ time. I ask again: is that what the Government want businesses to get ready for, and is it even possible for those businesses to do business on those terms?
The Minister will recall that I raised the concerns of the car manufacturing industry on 1 October at Cabinet Office questions and the possibility of tariffs, and also on rules of origin. He agreed to meet the automotive industry and trade unions. The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders and Unite followed up with a joint letter on the same day—1 October. However, I am now informed that, 18 days later, that letter has not been replied to and that meeting has not happened. At what point did the British Government give up on British industry, and when will the Minister be meeting those businesses? It is all well and good to say prepare, but he cannot even be bothered to get round a table with them. I ask again: what are they supposed to be preparing for and what support are the Government giving them?
In his statement today, the Minister thanked the road haulage industry for its efforts, but you will also remember, Mr Speaker, that, at Cabinet Office questions, he said that the road haulage industry had been far from constructive, so I welcome the thanks that he gave them today. Earlier this month, I was with a haulage firm in Hull with my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma Hardy). It was a fantastic business, established more than 100 years ago, yet it does not know how many of its fleet of lorries will be able to operate in the EU come 1 January. How are they supposed to prepare for that?
Ministers have blithely referred to leaving with no trade deal as trading on “Australian terms”. This morning, the Business Secretary was pressed on the difference between an Australian deal and leaving with no deal, and he admitted that it was “semantics”—semantics! They can call it no deal. They can call it an Australia-style deal. They can call it a Narnia deal, as far as I am concerned, but let us be honest about what that means and how damaging it is for this country. [Interruption.] Someone says from a sedentary position that it is not damaging—10% tariffs on British cars being exported to the European Union is damage; 40% tariffs on lamb being exported to the European Union is damage. If any Member wants to stand up and tell their constituents, British industry and British farming that that is not damaging, they can be my guest, but it is not the truth.
The Prime Minister promised that the UK would “prosper mightily” without a trade deal with the EU. Given that confidence, will the Government publish their full economic impact assessment of the implications if no trade deal is achieved, broken down by industry and by the regions and nations of our United Kingdom? That may at least help us to understand what we are supposed to be planning for.
While the Government lecture businesses about being match-fit, their own preparations are badly off pace. In late July, the Government announced £50 million of funding for customs intermediaries. Could the Minister update the House on how much of that fund businesses have drawn down and give us the latest figures for the number of customs agents trained up to be ready for 1 January? The Government have given authorisation for a number of lorry parks, so how many of these “inland border facilities”, as the Minister likes to call them, have had work started on them, and how many are now completed? Can he list how many of the IT systems needed are on track and whether the crucial goods vehicle movement system has been tested with all haulage businesses? He mentioned business preparedness. What is happening in terms of security and data sharing?
This Government must deliver a deal that provides guarantees and safeguards on workers’ rights, environmental standards and animal welfare, protects jobs and does nothing to jeopardise the Good Friday agreement. That was all promised last year. Time is short, so my message to the Government is blunt: stop posturing, start negotiating and deliver the deal that you promised to the British people.
Michael Gove
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her questions. With respect to an oven-ready deal, the withdrawal agreement was concluded happily and voted on by the House of Commons, so we had a deal—a deal which many on the Labour Benches opposed, but a deal which means that our destiny is certain and that we are fulfilling the wishes of the British people. In the same way as 52% of the population of the United Kingdom and 53% of the population of Leeds West—her constituency—voted to leave, we will leave. We are honouring our commitment to the British people.
The hon. Lady was kind enough to refer to some of the past statements I have made that were quoted on the television briefly at the weekend. I have to say—and this is no reflection on her—that if she is going to talk about past statements, she had better clear that with the Leader of the Opposition, who in the past has favoured EU membership, then said he would accept the referendum result, then said that we needed a second referendum in order to satisfy the first, then said that we should have an extension of our membership of the European Union and the transition period, and is now silent on all those questions.
Mr Speaker
Order. This is a statement on Government policy, not the policy of the Opposition.
Michael Gove
I was merely pointing out, Mr Speaker, that we had an oven-ready deal, and from Labour we had an indigestible dog’s breakfast and a Leader of the Opposition who will not eat his words.
The hon. Lady asked about the various deadlines. Those are deadlines that the UK Government have set but that the EU has not met. In any negotiation, both sides have to honour their commitments. As I pointed out in my statement—and she did not, of course, acknowledge this—we were available to talk every day in the weeks preceding the European Council, and the European Union was not. But our firmness on this proposition is now bearing fruit. As we were exchanging thoughts across the Dispatch Box earlier, my colleague David Frost was in conversation with Michel Barnier. I now believe it is the case that Michel Barnier has agreed both to the intensification of talks and to working on legal texts—a reflection of the strength and resolution that our Prime Minister showed, in stark contrast with the approach that the Opposition have often enjoined us to take, of simply accepting what the EU wants at every stage.
The hon. Lady asked about preparation. It is absolutely right to say that we should talk to the automotive sector. That is why, as I pointed out in my statement, the Prime Minister has a business roundtable tomorrow with business representative organisations. She also asked about inland sites. I can confirm that we will have two inland sites at Ashford—Sevington and Waterbook—and one at Ebbsfleet, one at Thames Gateway, one at North Weald, one at Birmingham, one at Warrington, one at Holyhead, one in south Wales and another at White Cliffs in Dover. All those sites will bring extra jobs and investment to the UK as we forge a confident path ahead.
Mrs Theresa May (Maidenhead) (Con)
I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement. The Government appear resigned to the prospect of no deal, yet one area in which they should not be resigned to the prospect of no deal is security. I note that my right hon. Friend made no mention of security in his statement this afternoon, and the Prime Minister made no reference to security in his letter to parliamentarians on 16 October. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that, if the UK walks away with no deal, then our police and other law enforcement agencies will no longer have the necessary access to databases such as PNR—passenger name records—to be able to continue to identify and catch criminals and potential terrorists in order to keep us safe?
Michael Gove
My right hon. Friend makes a very important point about security. I would say three things. The first thing to say is that significant progress has been made in respect of security co-operation, but it is the case that the EU is insisting that, before we have access to systems such as the Schengen information system II, that we have to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. We cannot accept that.
The second thing I would say is that there are many areas in which we can co-operate more effectively to safeguard our borders outside the European Union than we ever could inside. Through a variety of methods and arrangements open to us, open to Border Force and open to our security and intelligence services, we can intensify the security that we give to the British people. The third thing I would say to my right hon. Friend is that I agree with her. When it comes to everything—security and other matters—no deal is better than a bad deal.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP) [V]
So here we go. The coveted no deal is now within touching distance. The dance of the no-deal seven veils is now down to its Brexit underwear. The easiest deal in history will now mean the UK leaving on Mongolian terms. The absolute rubbish we had to listen to about oven-ready deals and holding all the cards is now just the stuff of grotesque bad jokes. And whose fault is it? Well, not the Minister’s or that of this cabal of Tory anti-EU obsessives. It is all the fault of these Europeans. How dare they ask the Tories to stand by what they agreed, and how dare they ask for a level playing field and to retain the integrity of the single market! The EU must have the patience of saints to try to negotiate with these clown shoe-wearing goalpost shifters. As we have just heard, the EU has once again offered to have intensive talks, so it is back in your court, Minister.
The Minister somehow expects Scotland to go along with this disaster. Well there is a saying that he will know as a proud Scot, which will be Scotland’s response to this: he can go awa’ an’ bile his heid. Independence is now the settled will of the Scottish people, with 58% of Scots now in favour, so here is a proposition for the Minister: why does he not just go off and get his no-deal Brexit if that is what England indeed wants, and in Scotland we can now secure our independence—what our people want—which will allow us to design our own future European relationship? Surely there is nothing wrong with that. He gets what he wants and we get what we want. Will he agree to that at last, and say goodbye to his rotten Union and his rotten no-deal Brexit?
Michael Gove
As ever, I am in awe of the hon. Member’s ability, in a very short period, to bring so many metaphors together in what one can only describe as a car crash of similes. The Government, according to him, is wearing seven veils and clown shoes while also shifting goalposts. I have to say that I would love to see that circus performance, but I suspect that I will have to wait, because the SNP conference has I think been cancelled this year.
The second thing I would like to say in response to the hon. Member is that he refers disparagingly to this deal as a “Mongolian deal”. I do not know what Mongolia has ever done to offend the people of Scotland, but we in the UK value our friendship with the people of Ulaanbaatar and others. Certainly, we do not believe that this looking down on other peoples in other nations is appropriate. It may be appropriate for the atavistic nationalism which some SNP supporters avail themselves of, but those of us who believe in the Union, believe in friendship among all nations.
On the hon. Member’s final point about working together, I absolutely agree. The devolved Administrations must work with us and we must work with them to make sure that, as we leave the European Union, the communities of all parts of the United Kingdom prosper. One of the things I do regret is that, even though I value my close working with his colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Rural Economy and Tourism, Fergus Ewing, unfortunately, Scottish Government policy would mean that we would be back in the common fisheries policy. That would mean the people of Scotland’s coastal communities would lose out. I am sure he would not want that, and that is why I hope we can continue to work together to reap the benefits of the sea of opportunity that Brexit will bring.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)
I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement. I think he is right, because it was clear in the whole agreement that both sides needed to negotiate in good faith with a view to reaching an agreement. Yet it has been quite clear throughout that, for example, the refusal of those on the EU side to engage on financial services, which are 80% of our economy, but their determination to get a deal on the majority of theirs, which is trade in agri-products, is not good faith. How exactly does he intend to go forward with regard to the problems in the withdrawal agreement that will now be outstanding even if we make no trade deal?
Michael Gove
My right hon. Friend makes two very important points, the first of which relates to the approach that the European Union has taken. As I mentioned, even while I have been at the Dispatch Box it has been reported that there has been a constructive move on the part of the European Union, and I welcome that. Obviously we need to make sure that we work on the basis of the proposed intensification that it proposes. I prefer to look forward in optimism rather than necessarily to look back in anger. However, as he says, the difficult period that we have had over the past two weeks has been the result of some on the EU side not being as energetic as we have been in trying to reach agreement. He also makes an important point about making sure that we iron out all the difficulties in the withdrawal agreement. That is part of my role in the Joint Committee. I am grateful to him and to others for the advice they have offered as to how we should approach these difficult issues.
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
Despite what the Minister said in his opening remarks, it is quite clear that negotiations are continuing, and the war of words now needs to stop. Both sides need to get together and agree a deal, recognising that both will have to compromise. On preparations for 1 January, given that businesses do not know exactly how trade between GB and Northern Ireland is going to work—the pharmaceuticals industry does not have a clue—and given that the goods movement IT system is not yet in operation because it is not ready, while nowhere near enough customs agents have yet been recruited, why is it the Government’s approach to say to firms that they have their head in the sand and are not ready, when the Government cannot tell them exactly what they are meant to be getting ready for?
Michael Gove
I actually think that is a fair question that contains at least two very important pieces of wisdom. On the first, the EU took a position last week and in the weeks beforehand that was, as was widely acknowledged, not constructive, not designed to achieve progress, and not engaging with the detail. If, as a result of our clear view that we could not proceed on that basis, there has been movement, as it seems as though there has been today, then no one will welcome it more than me. But we cannot have from the EU the illusion of engagement without the reality of compromise: I completely agree with the right hon. Gentleman on that.
On the second point, yes, both with regard to trade in Northern Ireland and more broadly, there are aspects that need to be worked out. That is why we want to intensify these negotiations. If occasionally, in the crossfire between different parts of business, Government and others, different people express their frustration, that is fine. The most important thing is that we make sure that we work together in order to deliver.
Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con)
I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement. If the EU does not want to complete negotiations by this time, then we have to ensure that the whole country is ready for the consequences, so nothing is more important than keeping our ports working efficiently and effectively. Will he join me in commending the work of the local resilience forum in Hampshire on plans to ensure that Portsmouth, which has particular local transport challenges, can continue to support EU-bound freight? Will he update the House on funding available to help make sure that resources for these very important plans are in place?
Michael Gove
My right hon. Friend makes a very important point. Both the local resilience forum in Hampshire and the authorities in the port of Portsmouth have been working incredibly hard to make sure that they are ready for every eventuality. New facilities are being built at the port of Portsmouth. The port of Portsmouth is putting in an application to the port infrastructure fund for them. I had the opportunity to meet the leader of Portsmouth council and the chief executive of the port alongside my right hon. Friend the Paymaster General last Thursday. It is the case that some additional resource will be required to make sure that we can avoid any potential traffic congestion near Portsmouth, and we are working with the local authority to achieve just that.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op) [V]
The Government are planning to break the withdrawal agreement they signed only last year, thereby breaking international law and sending us into economic self-isolation. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster knows that a Canada deal is possible if he agrees the protections that are required for workers’ rights and our environment. Will he go back and agree those protections and, with them, a tariff-free trade agreement so that we can avoid the self-infliction of a no-deal Brexit alongside a raging pandemic, which would be a complete disaster for everyone in the UK?
Michael Gove
I have great affection for the hon. Gentleman, but he gets three things wrong. He says that we are planning to resile from the withdrawal agreement, he says that we will go into economic self-isolation, and he suggests that we should accept EU rules in all the areas that he mentions. My reply is: no, no, no.
Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)
As my right hon. Friend mentioned in his statement, Warrington is set to be the location of a new inland border facility on a former coach interchange in my constituency. Will he tell us a little more about what that will mean for jobs in my local area? What assurances can he give to local residents who are concerned about lorries clogging up village roads?
Michael Gove
My colleague Lord Agnew, the Cabinet Office Minister, has been in touch with my hon. Friend and with the local authority to stress that there will be additional investment, which will mean more jobs in Warrington. We expect that there will be an additional 375 jobs created in Warrington, split between new jobs for colleagues in the Border Force, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, Mitie and the haulage firm Wincanton. The current expectation is that that number will rise to around 460 jobs by December next year. We are also working to make sure that there is appropriate additional funding to ensure that there is no additional traffic problem for him, his constituents or those in neighbouring villages.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) [V]
I have known the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster all his political career. May I urge him not to keep the door ajar but to open the door to continuing negotiations? Not to have a deal would be a historic, shameful failure. It would hurt my constituents and his, with broken businesses and unemployment, and blight the future of a new generation and generations to come. Please, I beg him to try again for all of us.
Michael Gove
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his comments. We sincerely want an agreement, but we cannot have an agreement on any terms. I know that his constituents, like mine, voted to leave the European Union—
Michael Gove
Oh, a curious absence, then, in Yorkshire. Whatever our disagreements, the hon. Gentleman and I agree that we should work together in the best interests of all the citizens of the United Kingdom. I am always grateful for his wisdom. Ever since I first arrived in the House, he has been a good friend and a wise head, and whenever I have gone wrong it is because I have not paid too much attention—sorry, it is because I have not paid enough attention to his words.
Nicola Richards (West Bromwich East) (Con)
The UK will prosper mightily as an independent free trading nation with control over our money, laws and borders. What support has my right hon. Friend put in place to help business leaders in West Bromwich East prepare for the changes and opportunities that that will bring when we leave the transition period at the end of this year?
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. Fundamentally, whatever turbulence may occur, whatever bumps in the road there might be in the months ahead, the strengths and resilience of our economy mean that we will prosper mightily. The manufacturing leaders in her constituency in West Bromwich and more widely across the Black Country and the west midlands are benefiting directly from the investment that we are making in customs intermediaries, in new IT processes and systems, and in our Prime Minister’s broader commitment to levelling up. We must make opportunity more equal across the United Kingdom, and my hon. Friend’s championing of business in West Bromwich is a critical part of that.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)
Protecting the Good Friday agreement means protecting Northern Ireland’s place as an integral part of the United Kingdom, for that is the settled will of the people of Northern Ireland exercised through the principle of consent. Will the Secretary of State give us an update on discussions in the Joint Committee on the issue of export declarations and the fact that they are not required for goods travelling from Northern Ireland to Great Britain? Will he also give us an update on the issue of goods at risk and the EU attitude on this, to ensure that goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland that are not passing on to the Republic of Ireland are not subject to unnecessary and costly disruption?
Michael Gove
My right hon. Friend makes three very important points. On the first, about exit declarations, he is absolutely right: the protocol is there both to help us safeguard the EU’s single market, but also to affirm Northern Ireland’s integral place in the United Kingdom and within its customs territory, and there is no need for customs declarations for goods coming from Northern Ireland to the rest of Great Britain. As for his point about goods at risk, he is absolutely right about that as well: bread that is baked in Huddersfield and goes into a supermarket in Ballymena should not be subject to tariffs, because it is trade within the United Kingdom. And his final point is right as well: the Belfast agreement was a balanced agreement, and sometimes some of the rhetoric we hear about the Belfast agreement seems to me to be inadequate in its understanding of the vital importance of the fact that the majority of people in Northern Ireland have voted to stay part of the United Kingdom. Their rights, their views, their loyalty needs to be respected.
Craig Williams (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
The toughest negotiators in this country are the farmers in my constituency, and my farmers recognise at this moment that my right hon. Friend and Lord Frost are excellent negotiators. That is borne out by the news that the talks are intensifying, including on legal texts. May I ask my right hon. Friend to meet me to talk about business engagement, especially in the agricultural sector in the devolved Administrations environment, since the devolved Administrations seem hostile to us getting any kind of successful deal?
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend is absolutely right: I have met farmers in his constituency, and a tougher bunch of negotiators we would be hard-pressed to find. But he is absolutely right also that their interests need to be protected, and not just by the UK Government but by the devolved Administration—by the Government in Wales. We need to work together to ensure that we are supporting them. In the event of an Australian-style exit, one of the sectors that we will need most energetically to support is the sheepmeat sector, and we will—and to be fair to the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), she made that point.
Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP) [V]
The UK imports 37 million packets of medicines from the EU every single month. The pharmaceutical industry has highlighted the difficulty in rebuilding full stockpiles for the end of transition due to the impact of covid, so, with just 74 days to go, how will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that there are no drug shortages, particularly of insulin, which the UK does not produce, and radioisotopes, which cannot be stockpiled?
Michael Gove
The hon. Lady brings formidable expertise to this area, and she is absolutely right to highlight the fact that we need rapid access to both insulin and radioisotopes. That is why the Department of Health and Social Care and the Department for Transport have put in place contingency arrangements should there be any risk of disruption, but we are also confident that the steps we have taken more broadly will ensure that we have freight flowing freely between the UK and the EU, including in this critical area.
Damian Green (Ashford) (Con)
First, I should pay tribute to the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch (Rachel Maclean), for her exemplary communications with my constituents who live near the Sevington lorry park; I am very grateful.
I still hope and expect that we will get a deal, but either way, may I ask my right hon. Friend how confident he is that the smart freight system will be fully operational by 1 January, and if it is not, what does he think will happen?
Michael Gove
I join my right hon. Friend in praising the efforts of the Transport Minister, who has been incredibly energetic and determined to make sure that colleagues in Kent from all parties are kept informed on the progress of our preparations. The smart freight portal is being shared with hauliers and others as we speak. It is currently in its beta phase and we want to ensure that it is further refined, but the straightforward approach that it should provide should enable us to minimise any disruption that my right hon. Friend or his constituents face. I am absolutely confident it will be in place; if it were not, other measures would need to be taken, but they would not be as helpful as the smart freight system.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
We have heard it all now: it is just, according to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, “an unfortunate sequence of events”, otherwise known as the Lemony Snicket defence—all the fault of evil uncle Olaf and his foreign friends. But on the serious point about this, consider how it will affect, for example, our musicians who go on tour. They are usually not part of large operations. They might take their instrument, fly on a budget flight, try to sell some of their merchandise, cross a few borders in the European Union—that is how they scrape a living. They are making no money now. Will he please consider the consequences of no deal, admit that this is not a frivolous issue but a matter of people’s livelihoods, and seriously engage with it rather than take this frivolous and superficial approach?
Michael Gove
I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but I certainly would not take a frivolous approach towards the livelihoods of anyone, whether they are freelance musicians or anyone else who contributes to the health, prosperity and economy of this country. That is one of the reasons why we are so anxious to secure an agreement with the European Union and why we have been working so hard and in such a dedicated fashion in the Withdrawal Agreement Joint Committee. I mentioned earlier that as a result of the progress that we have made with Vice-President Maroš Šefčovič, the rights of 4 million EU citizens in the UK are now guaranteed, as are the rights of over 1 million citizens of the UK in the EU. More needs to be done to ensure that we can have a free trade agreement, but I absolutely take seriously the rights of citizens—whether they are, as I say, freelancers or others—to continue to be able to work and live freely.
John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
Has my right hon. Friend seen how much popular and excellent quality fresh food there is in our supermarkets with the Union flag on the packaging? Will he confirm that if the EU insists on high tariffs on food trade, where it sells us massively more than we sell it, that would be a huge opportunity for our farmers to grow and rear more for the domestic market and get back the huge amounts of market share stolen from them under the common agricultural policy?
Michael Gove
My right hon. Friend makes three very important points. The first thing is that UK producers are doing a fantastic job in increasing production in a sustainable way. Championing the quality of UK produce is something that we should all do and recognise, whether it is Orkney cheddar or Welsh lamb, that the UK flag is a symbol that connects quality not just to our consumers but worldwide. The second point that he makes, which is absolutely right, is that the common agricultural policy has been harmful, and our escape from it will ensure both that our farmers can prosper and that our environment can improve. His third point is that we should be confident not just that we can sell more excellent produce here in the UK but that, as we emerge into the world as a global free-trading nation, new opportunities to sell our excellent produce are available to our farmers, and he is absolutely right to be optimistic.
Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
The Minister has acknowledged the issue of the free flow of medicines into this country. Will he respond to the urgent appeal today from the pharmaceuticals industry to find a deal, and will he accept the approaches from the European Union and do everything in his power to ensure that my constituents, like those across the country who need medicines such as insulin, will have the deal that ensures that they can rely upon it?
Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con)
My right hon. Friend knows from our time in Cabinet together that I have nothing but the greatest possible respect and admiration for his negotiating skills and abilities. Given that we are advised that fish and state aids are the main stumbling blocks to a deal, will he draw to the attention of Monsieur Macron, the President of France, the fact that if there is no deal on fishing, there will not be any French boats fishing in British waters, and that the size of the British fishing industry is approximately 1.7% of the size of the British car and automotive industry? Finally, will my right hon. Friend remember that one of the reasons that Mrs Thatcher imposed a three-line Whip in support of the European single market Act was to stop false competition as a result of the unfair use of state aids?
Michael Gove
I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend for the three important points he makes. First, I am sure that the French President and others are increasingly aware of the point he makes about the consequence of no deal. Secondly, the automotive sector is vital not just to the economy of the west midlands but to the whole UK, and we need to make sure that we invest in it for the future. And his third point is right: we need to have our own state aid regime, not the European one, but we also need to make sure that it is consistent with our market principles.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
The Road Haulage Association is afraid that trade will grind to a halt if there are insufficient customs agents to help goods to cross the border in January. Some 50,000 customs agents are needed. On paper, the Government have allocated £84 million to the task of training the necessary people. I know the Minister has good attention to detail, so will he tell me how many customs agents have been trained from the allocated money?
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
What preparations are being made by the Royal Navy to provide requisite support in a potential no-deal situation to our fishery protection vessels to prevent what would then be the illegal plunder of our seas by an armada of French and Spanish trawlers?
Michael Gove
We have a series of assets to make sure that we can safeguard our waters, such as the offshore patrol vessels—the River class fishery protection vessels that are at the disposal of the Royal Navy—and other assets, including aircraft and drones. Of course, the joint maritime security centre in Portsmouth provides us with maritime domain awareness so that we can safeguard our waters.
Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP) [V]
We have 73 days to go here and businesses, deep in the middle of a pandemic, are trying their best to prepare, but there are many unanswered questions that add up to costs that Northern Ireland cannot afford. Firms and families here desperately want a deal, but we are hearing only about a blame game, brinkmanship, deflection and jingoism. People in Northern Ireland are more anxious than they have been in decades, with absolutely no sense that the Government understand that, given the misrepresentation of the agreement even in the last hour. I ask the Minister whether there is any upper limit to the damage that he thinks Northern Ireland should have to sustain for a Brexit that it has rejected at every possible opportunity.
Michael Gove
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her points. In my statement, I made the point—I hope that she will forgive me for making it again—that we made significant progress today in the Joint Committee, thanks to the constructive approach taken by Vice-President Maroš Šefčovič. We are lucky that he and his team are so committed to making sure that the protocol works. I remind her that the protocol is there to give effect to the Belfast agreement, which is about agreement across communities, rather than a culture of grievance.
Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con)
My right hon. Friend may not have known it before December 2019, but Carshalton and Wallington residents voted to leave the European Union and are keen to see us get on and return to being an independent, free-trading global nation. Although we hope that the EU will return constructively to the table, will he confirm that, irrespective of whether a deal is struck, we will continue to go out into the world to seek free trade agreements, such as the one we recently secured with Japan?
Michael Gove
Absolutely. A cloud lifted from Carshalton and Wallington in December last year, and we were able to see at last that the people of that constituency who voted for Brexit had a representative who believed in them.
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) [V]
The Government say that they just want the terms that Canada enjoys with the European Union. Last year, exports to the European Union accounted for more than 60% of Welsh trade; Holyhead alone accounts for more than 400,000 freight movements each year across the Irish sea. Wales’s relationship with the European Union is nothing like that of Canada. Do those facts not demonstrate that, for Wales, the Minister’s preferred Canada-style agreement is just not good enough?
Michael Gove
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but I think that Government and Opposition Front Benchers recognise that a Canada-style agreement is entirely consistent with how people voted in the referendum, including the people of Wales, who did vote to leave. It provides us with an opportunity to trade freely with the European Union but to chart our own destiny.
Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con)
I share my right hon. Friend’s disappointment in the EU’s continued intransigence. It is right that we do everything we can to prepare for all outcomes on 31 December, but it remains the case that it is in the best interests of both the UK and the EU to reach a long-term trade deal. Can he confirm that if the EU does shift its position and return to the negotiating table, the Government stand ready to talk and that we are prepared to consider individual deals or agreements on specific areas such as haulage and security?
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I was not party to the telephone call that took place earlier between Michel Barnier and Lord Frost, but if it does presage a change of approach on the part of the EU and a proper intensification, no one would welcome that more than I do. It would mean that we could make progress, but obviously the proof of the pudding remains. On my hon. Friend’s second point, if we leave on Australian-style terms, we will be negotiating and discussing with our friends and neighbours to ensure that we have effective interim arrangements, particularly in areas such as freight transport.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
I am pleased that, at least on the face of it, the Government appear to be standing up to the bullying tactics by Brussels and have indicated that we will not leave on the basis of an agreement that compromises our sovereignty or our independence. On the Joint Committee, the right hon. Gentleman mentioned two things. First, he said that the Government had outlined what steps they had taken to deal with the new agrifood arrangements. Secondly, he said that the Government now understood the EU’s position on monitoring those arrangements. Will he tell us whether the EU has agreed that the goods at risk will not include those goods that stay in Northern Ireland and that those goods will therefore not be taxed or subject to controls? Secondly, has the EU demanded that the implementation of that monitoring will require EU officials to be present in Northern Ireland?
Michael Gove
On the first point, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, but I think that the EU has a very good understanding of exactly the points we make. On the second point, we want to have a pragmatic approach whereby the UK is responsible for the administration of these controls, but we want to provide the EU with reassurance wherever possible.
Neil O’Brien (Harborough) (Con)
I voted to leave in the referendum, and I strongly agree with my right hon. Friend that we have to have the right deal, but does he agree, given the economic challenges and the common security threats that we are facing from Russia, China and the middle east, that a deal is still the best outcome for both the UK and EU?
Michael Gove
Absolutely. The broader point that my hon. Friend makes about the need for solidarity among democracies at a time of increasing insecurity across the globe is an important one. We cannot agree to a deal at any price—we have been very clear about that—but the broader context that he provides is very helpful.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op)
My very first question in this place was to ask the then Prime Minister whether she would consider separately negotiating access to Erasmus and Horizon, which did not need to be part of the wider agreement, because of the risk of a deal falling down. Now that the deal has fallen down and all predictions about this incompetent Government have come true, will the Government consider a separate track to negotiate Erasmus and Horizon entry—which they can do and which the European Union was willing to do—so that our students and universities can have security on this issue?
Michael Gove
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, and we would like to continue participation in both those programmes, but obviously that depends to a significant extent on conversations that are still going on.
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
Can my right hon. Friend elaborate a bit more on his point about state aid? Is there state aid that we wish to give to UK companies that we were not able to do under the EU regime, or is the dispute more about the retaliation mechanism, as he put it in his statement?
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that this is significantly about the retaliation procedures, but it is also about the mode of governance by which we would report and notify the state aids that we might wish to issue.
Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)
The Prime Minister promised the nation an “oven-ready” deal, and it was avowedly going to be
“one of the easiest in human history”
to negotiate. Instead, this Conservative Government have shown that they are happy to rip up an agreement only months after signing it, thereby breaking international law, and they are now hurtling us towards a disastrous no-deal Brexit. So, on behalf of the Prime Minister, would the right hon. Gentleman like to apologise to the British people for having made false promises? Will he tell us what changes he will be making to his approach to prove that the UK can be taken seriously and act in good faith, despite the best efforts of this incompetent Government?
Michael Gove
First, as the hon. Gentleman will acknowledge, since last Friday, since the Prime Minister’s statement and since the preparation of my statement earlier, we have seen a welcome indication of movement on the part of the EU. I think that those who were prepared to criticise the Prime Minister on Friday and over the weekend should perhaps, in fairness and with appropriate humility, recognise that he has been standing up for Britain, and therefore no apology is required.
Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)
As the clock ticks down, the pressure will undoubtedly mount on the British Government and on the EU government. It would be reassuring to hear from my right hon. Friend some assurance that he will not go wobbly and reach for any deal on offer at that time just because it is on offer, and that as the likelihood of not securing a free trade agreement with the EU rises, he and his Department are working on a plan of retaliatory fiscal, tax and government state aid actions that could then be put in place.
Michael Gove
First, may I say that I wish I had my hon. Friend’s lean physique, because I am afraid that bits of me are wobbly? That is not the case with him. On the substance, he is right: we both need to be firm in these negotiations, as the Prime Minister has been, and ready for any eventuality. That means that if we do go to Australian terms, we need to use the freedoms that that affords.
Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab)
In 2019, £300 billion of UK exports went to the EU, which was 43% of our entire total, and not even 2% went to Australia. This is the Minister who told us that these would be the easiest negotiations ever, but businesses in Southwark tell me that they have lost patience with the Government, that uncertainty is costing them and that their employees face losing their jobs as a result of his failure to secure a deal. The simple question is: why do my constituents face losing their jobs as a result of his inability to do his?
Michael Gove
I think that is what we call a leading question, but the hon. Gentleman misattributes the earlier quotation—I think someone else, rather than me, made that point. More broadly, however, prosperity for his constituents and mine depends on making sure that we embrace the free trading, outward-looking approach that the Prime Minister has outlined. That is the best way of making sure that can export not just to Europe and Australia, but across the world.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
At the Munich security conference last year, the term “westlessness” was first coined, meaning an absence of what the west now stands for, what we believe in and what we are willing to defend. I hope my right hon. Friend agrees that European defence and security must sit above the politics of Europe, because the threats are increasing, no longer recognising state borders or indeed membership of international institutions, but the Galileo project illustrates how EU politics is weakening collective European resolve. I hope he will reconfirm our commitment to joint European security, not least through NATO.
Michael Gove
My right hon. Friend makes a very important point; NATO is the keystone of our defence architecture. More broadly, I hope that whatever occurs in the next couple of months as we resolve our economic relationship with the EU, the strong bilateral and multilateral ties we have with European allies, from Estonia to France, remain and are strengthened in order to make sure that the west is strong and democracy is reinforced.
Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance) [V]
More than 40% of UK external trade is with the EU27, whereas about 10% of the EU27’s trade is with the UK, so clearly the UK badly needs a deal. If we end up with a World Trade Organisation rules outcome, there still needs to be agreement in the Joint Committee about goods at risk, so will the right hon. Gentleman give businesses and households in Northern Ireland a firm guarantee that in no circumstances will any tariffs be levied down the Irish sea interface?
Michael Gove
Yes, and that was an admirably Unionist intervention from the hon. Gentleman .
Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con)
Businesses in Dudley South and across the Black Country trade with countries in every part of the world. Further to the earlier question from my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich East (Nicola Richards), what support is available for businesses to understand the changes to customs and tax rules, so that they can prepare to take advantage of those opportunities as we become an independent trading nation again?
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is the case that we are intensifying our communications campaign. On the Government Digital Service gov.uk website, the transition page outlines some of the information required. The Prime Minister and I are meeting business representative organisations tomorrow in order to reinforce that, but I would be very happy to talk to him and other colleagues in the west midlands, in our manufacturing heartland, to reinforce exactly what it is that we can provide businesses to support them to take advantage of these new opportunities.
Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)
As the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster knows, his earlier pessimism that the talks had broken down was misjudged, because in fact we know that, while he has been on his feet, the European Union has said that it is happy to talk about any legal texts. Therefore, his pessimism that we were headed towards an Australian-style deal was misjudged, but can he just confirm for my constituents why he would be so pessimistic about an Australian deal, because his own Brexit analysis in 2018 said that such a deal would cost 8% of GDP, or £2,500 per person in layman’s terms. Are those figures still correct? Is that the price of this failure?
Michael Gove
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her point. She is absolutely right. As a result of the Prime Minister standing firm in defiance of criticism from some in this House, it appears—it appears—that, at this stage, the EU has moved in a way that intensifies talks and sees legal texts being exchanged. I sincerely hope that that is the case. We will find out more in the days ahead. As for the analysis that she quotes, that was not mine.
Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)
My right hon. Friend recognised earlier the importance of, if at all possible, obtaining continuing arrangements for security co-operation and access to the very important Europol, Eurojust and related databases. All of those matters require an agreement on data sharing, as does much access for the financial services business. What specific advance has there been in relation to data adequacy and data sharing?
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend is absolutely right: we need to secure data adequacy in order to have the best possible set of arrangements for business and for security. It is an autonomous process, but we believe that the EU should grant us adequacy on the basis of the information that we have provided. More broadly, there are a variety of security and law enforcement tools to which we believe we will have access, but, because of European Court of Justice jurisdiction, there are one or two that remain difficult.
Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP) [V]
We have heard the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster basically blame the EU for the breakdown in the talks, but the EU has not walked away from the talks despite the Government setting out a course of action that will break international law and the withdrawal agreement that was reached less than a year ago. Has the right hon. Gentleman considered that his Government bear responsibility for any collapse in negotiations, given their obligations to respect the rule of international law?
Michael Gove
I know the point that the hon. Gentleman is trying to make, but I think that it is misconceived, and recent events underline that.
Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con)
The Government should be congratulated on their trade deal with Japan, the world’s third largest economy. Can my right hon. Friend confirm that, irrespective of a deal with the EU, the UK will continue to pursue trade opportunities with the world’s biggest and fastest-growing economies, including those that might benefit exporters in Stockton South?
Michael Gove
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and the credit should go to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Trade. She has not just concluded a free trade agreement with Japan, but has made progress on free trade agreements with Australia, on our accession to the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, and on other opportunities for businesses, including those in Stockton South, for which he is such a brilliant advocate.
Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
I have been listening patiently for the past hour and I am still not certain whether we are heading for a no-deal Brexit or for a deal Brexit. Business always says that it wants certainty. What certainty can the right hon. Gentleman offer business at this very late stage now for 1 January 2021?
Michael Gove
The certainty that I can offer is that we will be out of the customs union and out of the single market, and that as a result we will be able to take our place as an independent free trading nation. Businesses in Bath and elsewhere know what it is that they need to do. That is certainty. It is very different from the proposition that the Liberal Democrats put forward at the last general election, which was a second referendum or a third referendum—I have no idea how many referendums the Liberal Democrats wanted. One thing I do know is that they returned fewer than a dozen MPs, which shows what the country thought of that.
Dame Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con) [V]
If what my right hon. Friend has told the House today is accurate—that the EU has realised at the eleventh hour that it is in its best interests to reach an accommodation with the United Kingdom and it can no longer dictate to this country—can he tell me what will happen with those businesses that have not prepared for the end of the transition period? The permanent secretary of his Department told the Public Accounts Committee last week that 36% of our small businesses had not made preparations. Has that figure now been reduced? What further communications are planned to ensure that all businesses are ready for the end of the year, whether we get a deal or not? May I say that I very much hope we do get a deal?
Michael Gove
I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend: we do very much want a deal. We hope that developments this afternoon are moving us in the right direction. She is also absolutely on the button when she says that, with or without a free trade agreement, businesses need to prepare. The number that are getting prepared is increasing all the time, and it is my Department’s responsibility, along with HMRC, to make sure they have the information they require, whatever happens. Outside the single market and the customs union, there will be new procedures. I look forward to working with her and others on the Public Accounts Committee to ensure that we communicate the detail required through our new intensified campaign.
Mr Speaker
In order to allow the safe exit of hon. Members participating in this item of business and the safe arrival of those participating in the next, I suspend the House for a few minutes.
Covid-19 Update
Monday 19th October 2020
(3 years, 6 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Act 2020 View all Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Act 2020 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Commons Consideration of Lords Amendments as at 19 October 2020 - (19 Oct 2020)
The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Matt Hancock)
I would like to make a statement on coronavirus. As winter draws in, the virus is on the offensive: 40 million coronavirus case have now been recorded worldwide. Weekly deaths in Europe have increased by 33% and here in the UK, deaths have tragically doubled in the last 12 days. The situation remains perilous.
While the disease is dangerous for all adults, especially with growing evidence of the debilitating consequences of long covid, we know it is especially dangerous for older people. Cases continue to rise among the over-60s, who are most likely to end up in hospital or worse. I am very worried that the cases per 100,000 among the over 60s is 401 in the Liverpool city region, 241 in Lancashire and, in Greater Manchester, has risen over the past week from 171 to 283. That is why the Government have been working so hard to act, and I am very glad that we have been able to agree, across party lines, the necessary measures in Liverpool and Lancashire, and we are working hard to reach such an agreement in Greater Manchester.
We are doing everything in our power to suppress the virus, support the economy, support education and support the NHS until a vaccine is available. That is the right strategy, charting a path that allows for the greatest economic and social freedom while protecting life. The director general of the World Health Organisation said last week:
“Allowing a dangerous virus that we don’t fully understand to run free is simply unethical.”
I agree. I know that this is difficult and I know that it is relentless, but we must have resolve, see this through and never stop striving to support the science that will one day make us safe.
I was at Chelsea and Westminster Hospital this morning meeting NHS colleagues who are caring for patients with such dedication, as they always do. I heard from them how important it is for everyone to support the NHS by keeping the virus down so that the NHS is not overwhelmed by covid patients and it can deliver all the essential non-covid care that people need. I am glad to report that the number of people experiencing a long wait for cancer treatment has been brought down by 63% since its peak in July. I want to thank all the cancer teams who are working so hard to ensure people get the cancer screening, diagnostics and treatment that they need, even in these difficult circumstances, but the best way to protect cancer treatment and all the other treatments in the NHS is to keep the prevalence of coronavirus down.
In doing this, of course, we are taking as localised and targeted a way as possible. Our local code alert level system means that we can have different rules in places such as Cornwall, where transmission is low, and Liverpool, where transmission is high and rising. On Thursday, I updated the House about several areas of the country that we are moving into the high alert level and today I would like to inform the House at the earliest possible opportunity that Lancashire has now moved into the very high alert level. Infection rates in Lancashire are among the highest in the country and are continuing to rise rapidly, including in the over-60s as I mentioned. Both the number of cases and the number of hospital admissions are doubling almost every fortnight, and the number of covid patients in intensive care beds in Lancashire has already reached nearly half the number seen at the height of the pandemic earlier this year. So we knew we had to take rapid action to suppress the epidemic in Lancashire.
We have always said that we stand side by side with any local area that agreed to move into this third tier and offer substantial support to local authorities, including for testing, tracing, enforcement and business support. I would like to thank local leaders in Lancashire who have been working with us so constructively, and I am sure that their willingness to put politics aside in the national interest, and in the interests of the people whom we serve, will save lives and protect livelihoods at this difficult time.
Following the successful introduction of measures in Liverpool and Lancashire, talks continue this afternoon with Greater Manchester, led by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government. This week, further discussions are planned with South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, the north-east and Teesside.
Sadly, over the weekend, we have seen very directly the impact of this disease. I was shocked to learn on Saturday of the sad death from coronavirus of Bill Anderson, the brother of Liverpool Mayor Joe Anderson. My heart and, I am sure, the sympathies of the whole House go out to the Anderson family and the people of Liverpool, who have lost a brother. All our thoughts are with our colleague, the hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi), who is in hospital with pneumonia after testing positive for covid-19. We wish her a speedy recovery and send all our support to the NHS in Greater Manchester, which is caring for her and so many others.
I would also like to provide an update on testing—another vital line of defence. We are testing more people than any other country in Europe. We are now doing over 300,000 tests a day, up from 2,000 a day in February, and we have opened over 500 test sites, including new walk-in centres in Dundee on Friday, in Edinburgh on Saturday and in Newcastle this morning.
Alongside that important work, we are working hard to discover and evaluate new testing technologies that are simpler, faster and cheaper. Some of these tests can produce a result as quickly as in 15 minutes, and we will make them available to local directors of public health as part of our strategy for local action, starting with areas in the very high alert level. We are rolling them out across hospitals and care homes, to test patients and residents yet more regularly and keep people safe, and for schools and universities, so that we can keep education open safely through the winter. These tests have shown real promise, and we are both buying them now and ramping up our ability to produce them at scale here in the UK. We will stop at nothing to support this extraordinary scientific and logistical endeavour, which can give us hope on the path back to normal life.
Finally, I would like to inform the House that on Friday, we laid regulations to support the roll-out of both the flu vaccination and any covid vaccination. While, of course, no vaccine technology is certain, we must be prepared to deploy a vaccine as soon as one is safely available. The new regulations provide for a wider range of clinically qualified people to administer vaccines and for the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency to grant a UK licence for a vaccine before the end of the transition period, should that be necessary. We wish all our scientists well in this vital work, and we will give them all the support they need.
We are once again at a decisive moment in our fight against coronavirus. While our scientists work round the clock on the solutions that will finally bring this crisis to an end, we must all play our part, come together and work together to keep people safe, suppress the virus and save both livelihoods and lives. I commend this statement to the House.
Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op)
May I start by sending my party’s condolences to Joe Anderson for the sad loss of his brother from this horrific virus? I also send our best wishes to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) for a speedy recovery.
As always, I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement. The virus continues to grow nationwide. The R rate is between 1.3 and 1.5. An increasing number of care homes across the country have seen outbreaks, with 214 in the last week. Admissions to critical care continue to rise nationwide—yes, at a slower rate than in the first wave, but at this stage in the first wave, critical care admissions were starting to fall because of the lockdown. They currently continue to rise.
We welcome the progress that is being made on saliva testing and LAMP—loop-mediated isothermal amplificationn —testing. It will allow us to introduce wider mass testing, which is a vital tool in taking on this virus. I pay tribute to the universities that are developing great testing innovations, such as Southampton University, and Leicester University in my constituency. What is the timescale for the advances in testing that the Secretary of State is talking about? Is the plan still for millions of tests a day? There was speculation back in September that his plan was for 10 million tests a day by February, so can he tell us what the daily testing capacity will be by the end of the year? We have seen delays in the pilots. Salford was supposed to be testing 250 people a day using saliva testing, but that has now been refocused. It is vital that testing of all frontline healthcare workers is now introduced to help the NHS get through the winter, so will the Secretary of State urgently speed up the validation of pooled polymerase chain reaction testing in the Lighthouse labs? It is not yet happening in those labs, and we really need it to be.
This virus spreads with speed, so testing must be quick, yet results are still not turned around in 24 hours. Again, when will they be turned around in 24 hours? Contacts must be traced quickly, and those who are traced must be given support to isolate, yet we have—to be frank—a badly designed system that is failing to trace sufficient contacts, costing £12 billion and paying consultants £7,000 a day. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office, the right hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove) justified these failings yesterday on “The Andrew Marr Show”, saying that when the virus is accelerating,
“any test and trace system of whatever kind has less utility”.
After spending £12 billion, Ministers now just shrug their shoulders and say, “Well, the virus is accelerating, so contact tracing is less useful.” It is simply not good enough. The country is facing further restrictions because test and trace failed, so again, I urge the Secretary of State to fund local public health teams to do contact tracing everywhere and follow international best practice, such as Japan’s, where they focus on investigating clusters using retrospective contact tracing. We need that backward contact tracing everywhere, not just in the places that are hotspots.
This virus exploits clustering and social interaction, and I have always accepted that socialising in closed spaces, especially with poor ventilation, is a driver of transmission. However, for interventions to be effective, the consent of local people is needed and economic support is vital, yet we are now in a situation where the Bishop of Manchester—a bishop, for goodness’ sake—describes Liverpool as “feeling cheated”, Lancashire as “feeling bullied”, and Manchester as “angrily determined”. If the Secretary of State is seeking to impose greater restrictions on Greater Manchester, surely it needs financial support so that people’s livelihoods are not put at risk, so can he tell the Chancellor to spend less time admiring himself on Instagram and instead deliver a financial package to safeguard jobs across Greater Manchester?
The Prime Minister has promoted the tier 3 restrictions because they mean that, in his words, “there is a chance” to bring the R number down, but how do these restrictions in the north arrest growth in the virus across the rest of the country? The R number across the south-east is 1.3 to 1.5; across the south-west, it is 1.3 to 1.6; and across the east of England, it is 1.3 to 1.5. Cornwall, Devon, Suffolk, Somerset and Ipswich have recorded covid rates per 100,000 in recent days that are higher than the average rates across Greater Manchester when it went into lockdown in the summer, so to get the national R number below 1, more intervention will be needed than is currently proposed. Is it not in the national interest to now follow the advice of the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies, and adopt a two to three-week circuit break?
Last week, when asked about a circuit break, the Prime Minister said, “I rule out nothing”. He also said that he “stands ready” to apply those measures if necessary. However, the Minister for the Cabinet Office yesterday ruled out a circuit break, so for clarity, have the Government now completely ruled out a circuit break in all circumstances? The cost of delay could be a deeper, longer, fuller lockdown. Is the Secretary of State now ruling that out?
I say to the Secretary of State that we have a window of opportunity. For much of the country, it is half term next week. If it is politically easier for him, he does not have to call it a circuit break: he can call it a firewall or a national moment of reset. Whatever he calls it, we need something, because the longer the Prime Minister dithers, the harder it becomes to take back control of this virus, protect the NHS and save lives. We urge him to act before it is too late.
Matt Hancock
I absolutely will address the questions that the hon. Gentleman raised. On the first set of questions about testing, I might have missed it, but I think he omitted to support and congratulate the work of everybody involved in getting more than 300,000 tests a day delivered—on track to a capacity of more than half a million tests a day by the end of this month. He rightly asked about batch testing, which is currently being trialled.
The hon. Gentleman asked us to fund local contact tracing everywhere. We have put those funds into each local authority, but of course we put the most support into the areas that need it most. The Government’s approach of targeting the support and measures on the areas where they are needed most is at the core of how we—as he put it—retain the consent of people while we go through these difficult actions.
To be truthful, the hon. Gentleman is far closer to and more supportive of the Government’s position than he feels able to express at the Dispatch Box, not least because he asked for economic support. Let me just leap to the Chancellor’s aid and defence. The Government have put in unprecedented economic support to help people through these difficult times—billions of pounds of aid and further aid forthcoming. The hon. Gentleman asked in particular for economic support when an area goes into tier 3, which is exactly what I announced in respect of Lancashire. That is of course part of the discussions that we have with local authorities when further actions are needed.
So, there absolutely will be more economic support from the Government, yes; more work with local authorities to deliver the local approach that is needed, yes; and more testing capacity, yes. These are all the things that the Government are delivering and it behoves the hon. Gentleman to acknowledge and support them, as clearly we are all trying to deliver the same thing, which is to suppress the virus and save lives.
Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con)
I congratulate the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care on the news about LAMP—loop-mediated isothermal amplification—and lateral flow testing, which is potentially the most significant news about the fight against the virus that the House has heard for many weeks.
Given the dangers of conflicting public health messages when local leaders and national leaders say different things, is it not time to consider aligning incentives by saying that local leaders have the responsibility to bring down the R rate and giving them the powers and resources to do that if necessary, but also saying that if they fail to do that, they will be stripped of those powers to allow the Government to—to coin a phrase—take back control?
Matt Hancock
The approach we are taking, which is working effectively in almost every local area, is to work with local leaders. We are doing that across party lines, whether in Liverpool or Lancashire, as I mentioned, or in South Yorkshire, the north-east and Teesside, where the discussions are collaborative and consensual. That is the way we need to deliver the public health messages that are best delivered with everybody speaking with one voice and all working together to tackle the virus. That is not to mention London, where there has been a similar approach.
I would merely point out that over the past week in Greater Manchester the rate of infection among those aged over 60, which is the group most likely to end up in hospital, has risen from 171 per 100,000 to 283, so it is absolutely vital, from a public health perspective, that we act.
Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP) [V]
The economic impact on areas under the tightest covid restrictions is significant, particularly for the hospitality industry, where many young workers are employed. Covid will be with us for some considerable time, so we need to learn to adapt and live with it as safely as possible. As I have highlighted previously, covid is spread by airborne particles as well as droplets, so ventilation is key to reducing the risk of spread. There are ventilation systems that incorporate antimicrobial technology, which could reduce spread in indoor settings. Last week, I asked the Secretary of State whether he would speak to the Chancellor about promoting their installation by removing VAT and making them tax deductible. He did not answer, so I ask him again: does he recognise the importance of ventilation in the battle against covid? If so, will his Government use their taxation powers to help to make hospitality settings more covid-secure and avoid their being repeatedly shut down?
Matt Hancock
Absolutely we will support hospitality businesses and all the sectors of the economy. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor has supported the hospitality industry more than any other. In fact, the UK Government are supporting businesses right across the whole country. When the Scottish Government take action on public health grounds in a devolved way, the UK Government then come in with the economic support. That is yet another example of how much stronger we all are working together. I will take away the hon. Lady’s detailed point and talk to the Treasury. It is, of course, a question for the Treasury rather than for me as Health Secretary, but I just underline the importance of us all working together across Scotland and across the whole of the UK, and of the economic firepower of the UK Exchequer supporting people right across this land.
Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con)
In Hyndburn and Haslingden—and, in fact, across Lancashire—we have some of the strongest people I have ever met. We will do everything we can to get our infection rate down, because that is what we do when times are tough: we come together. However, morale is low and mental health is suffering as people cannot see their families and some have been unable to see their loved ones in care homes since March. Will the Secretary of State outline what the Government are doing to mitigate that situation, and what steps are being taken to try to facilitate safe visits, given that there is no clear end date?
Matt Hancock
My hon. Friend has shown real leadership in Hyndburn in very difficult times. This has not been easy for the people of Lancashire. In Hyndburn, there have been restrictions for some time and I appreciate how hard that is, but I think everybody will look to the way my hon. Friend has tried to support people as much as possible, contacting me day and night with the cases of individual constituents, and has put herself at the service of her constituents. The people of Hyndburn are very well represented.
On the specific point that my hon. Friend makes, absolutely we must ensure, just as places have to go into level 3 restrictions when we are concerned about the ability of the NHS to cope if things get further out of hand, that so too will we reduce those restrictions as soon as we can safely. We will do that not necessarily across a whole county, but on a district-by-district level if that is what the data says should be done. That is something we are constantly looking at. For now, the single most important message to everybody in Hyndburn and across Lancashire is: let’s pull together, follow the rules and get this under control.
Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab) [V]
I thank the Secretary of State for the meeting he had with north-east MPs on Friday. I can tell him that, if the data is accurate, the signs over the weekend are that we are moving in the right direction.
I understand that SAGE highlighted that the impact of further potential restrictions will be felt very differently by different communities. SAGE suggests the need for immediate planning to refine measures to minimise potential harms and to mitigate impacts on vulnerable groups. Given the Government’s commitment to the levelling-up agenda, what are the Government’s plans to reduce the real risk that measures taken to respond to covid will continue to increase inequality and worsening levels of poverty and deprivation? In the north-east, we are not out of the woods by any stretch of the imagination, but can I urge the people of the north-east to carry on doing the right things?
Matt Hancock
The hon. Gentleman speaks for everyone across the north-east. The cross-party working has been first rate and I pay tribute to all colleagues from the north-east who have been working so hard. The message to everybody in the north-east is that there are early signs that the measures are starting to work, but we are not there yet, so let us all stick with it, work together, support each other, support the NHS and absolutely we will bring in the economic support to ensure both that we help businesses as much as possible, help employers and help individuals through this crisis. After that, the levelling-up agenda is vital to unite the whole country.
Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)
How correct my right hon. Friend is that the most effective actions are those that are local and targeted. Will he confirm that he will look at tier 2 reviews in the light of regulation 8 in part 4 of the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Local COVID-19 Alert Level) (High) (England) Regulations 2020, so that we can target on a local basis? Given that so many cases are asymptomatic, could he say when he expects the new test to be more widely available across the community?
Matt Hancock
My hon Friend makes an incredibly important point, which is that the regulations are written on a borough-by-borough basis, and if we can take specific boroughs out of the regulations sooner, based on the data, then we will do so, and we have done. In fact in some cases we have taken part of a district or a borough out of the regulations when that is what the data has shown. I can give him that assurance.
On the testing, we are rolling out the tests as fast as we can. The use case is one of ensuring that more NHS staff are tested on an asymptomatic basis; there is more testing in care homes, where it is important to protect the most vulnerable; there is more support in education, to make sure we can keep education as open as effectively possible; and there is asymptomatic testing in areas where there is a big outbreak. All of that will be there to support outbreak control and get this virus under control.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)
The Welsh Government have today announced a stringent two-week firebreak to try to bring the R number down. Central to the strategy, of course, must be sufficient economic support for businesses and livelihoods. Will the Secretary of State press the Chancellor to ensure that the Welsh Government have sufficient financial flexibility to pursue their chosen public health policy?
Matt Hancock
Yes, of course. The Welsh Government respond to the circumstances in Wales as they see fit, according to the devolution settlement. As I was saying to the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford), we are absolutely prepared, ready and engaged in supporting communities and businesses right across the UK and in supporting individuals who, through no fault of their own, fall on what can be incredibly hard times because of the impact of coronavirus.
Sir Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con)
The Secretary of State knows that pubs, bingo halls and gyms have gone to enormous lengths to ensure that they offer a safe environment, and many of us in Greater Manchester and elsewhere are sceptical that closing those institutions would make a significant difference to the spread of the virus, but can I ask him why the Government will not extend the additional resources for Test and Trace independently of those measures? Surely, it would be beneficial to do so.
Matt Hancock
Across Greater Manchester and across Trafford, we had extended further support for Test and Trace before the tier system came in. We have engaged to make sure that we get the benefits of local teams accessing and, because they have boots on the ground, finding people whom the national team simply cannot find, and that will continue. Of course, the negotiations and the discussions about the future of what extra we need to do in Greater Manchester continue. I know that my hon. Friend requires further persuasion that some of the actions that appear to be starting to work elsewhere should be put in place. I would gently point him to the fact that we did manage to level off the increase in infections in Bolton when we brought in firmer measures, but they have since then started to go up again after we removed those measures. Nevertheless he is absolutely right—absolutely right—that the best way we can tackle this is by people taking personal responsibility for reducing their social interaction to reduce the risk of spread, and I hope that we can all metaphorically link arms and get that message across.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
Small businesses in a tier 2 area such as Newcastle may not be asked to close, but they will face severe reductions in revenue due to local restrictions affecting football, for example, in the centre of our great city. The Secretary of State talks about unprecedented support, but these are unprecedented challenges for viable jobs in our city centre. In addition to what he has already mentioned, what local economic support will he offer to businesses in Newcastle?
Matt Hancock
If we do need to bring in further measures in Newcastle, then there is absolutely further support that is available, and there is already the unprecedented economic support that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has set out.
Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
Most of the MPs in Essex have reluctantly felt the need to support the tier 2 measures that are now being applied, but we are very concerned about the effect of this on the hospitality sector, in particular. Is it not very important that we align the economic interests of our constituents with the public health interests instead of polarising the debate such that one is either in favour of the economy or in favour of controlling the virus? May I also emphasise that one of the reasons why public confidence in the Government’s strategy is somewhat in decline is that we have yet to see the transformation of the leadership of test and trace, which I have discussed with the Secretary of State many times?
Matt Hancock
Where I agree with my hon. Friend is that there is no trade-off between health and economic measures, because if the virus gets out of hand, then we will end up with a worse economic hit as well. I know he agrees with that because we have discussed it many times. He, like other Essex MPs, may not like the fact that we have to collectively put in place these measures in Essex, but it is the right course of action.
Charlotte Nichols (Warrington North) (Lab)
As Warrington’s neighbouring Liverpool city region and Lancashire are in tier 3, with Greater Manchester expected to follow shortly if financial support is agreed, we need confidence that if we are asked to follow suit, there is robust evidence for the required closure of hospitality businesses, leisure businesses and salons. Will the Secretary of State commit to publishing the specific UK transmission data for these sectors compared with other workplaces—or are they merely a soft target?
Matt Hancock
We published further data late last week on exactly the question that the hon. Lady asks. We have the backward contact tracing in place that the hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) asked for—I apologise for not answering his question on that—and we have seen the evidence from that. The critical thing, though, is for us all to recognise that in places like Warrington and the surrounding area, where the number of cases is going up—and the number of cases among the over-60s is going up, which is particularly worrying—we do need to act, and to act together if at all possible.
James Murray (Ealing North) (Lab/Co-op) [V]
The October 2020 “World Economic Outlook” published by the International Monetary Fund clearly states that
“the short-term economic costs of lockdowns could be compensated by stronger medium-term growth, possibly leading to positive overall effects on the economy.”
The Government clearly disagree with the IMF’s assessment, but can the Secretary of State tell me whether he or his colleagues have carried out any analysis of the economic impact of a national circuit break?
Matt Hancock
Of course we look at all the impacts of all the policies, but we know that the more targeted a policy can be, both in terms of the measures and the geography, then the less disruption it will have. If the hon. Gentleman’s concern is with a national circuit break, that is not the policy of the Government; the policy of the Government is to have a localised approach. He might therefore want to have a word with his own Front Benchers.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
The Secretary of State quite rightly finished his statement by saying that we must all play our part in getting the virus down. Does he think it was that shared population-wide commitment in Wuhan in China that has seemingly got life back to normal? What lessons are there from what China has done that we could usefully apply here in the UK?
Matt Hancock
I would be cautious about some international comparisons, because life is not exactly back to normal and there are restrictions still in place. For instance, we have seen today Sweden introducing restrictions on a regional basis, which is similar to the approach that we have here. There is a lot of debate about international comparisons, and we do look across the board, but I am not sure it is true to say that life is back to normal in in Wuhan. We need to get the science to come to our aid and help us to get life back to normal here as quickly as possible.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
This weekend, I spoke to pub landlords, café and bar owners and staff across our towns, and they all said that business had plummeted since Wednesday, when we became a tier 2 area. They were all cutting staff hours, some were considering closing completely, and none of them was getting additional support, because the tier 2 job support scheme simply does not work for them. Does the Secretary of State not understand that in order to sustain support for additional health measures, he has to listen to the people who are most affected by them? Will he look again at support for tier 2 and tier 3 and make sure that jobs and businesses get the support they need?
Matt Hancock
Again, I am going to come to the defence of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, who has put in these support packages on a scale that has never been seen before. The right hon. Lady is right to raise the concerns of those in her constituency, but the combination of all the schemes that are available to businesses is something of a scale that this country has never had.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Ind)
How many separate covid vaccines are undergoing trials at present in the United Kingdom, and what is the planned duration of the trial period for each?
Matt Hancock
There are three vaccine trials under way in the UK: the AstraZeneca trial, which is frequently discussed; the Imperial College trial; and a trial of the Novavax vaccine. The period of the trial is dependent on the clinical results and on the data. Of course, of those three, the AstraZeneca trial is the most advanced and is in phase 3 trials. We are closely in contact with all of them to ensure that they get the support they need.
Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD)
I was alarmed, as were many public health experts, to read reports over the weekend that test and trace data is being shared with the police. Even a source in the Secretary of State’s own Department said that that will put people off getting tested. I hope the Secretary of State agrees that that is the exact opposite of what we need. Public trust and confidence in test and trace is critical, and transparency of the use of personal data is central to that, so will he publish today the memorandum of understanding that he and his Department have signed with the National Police Chiefs’ Council?
Matt Hancock
It is very important that people come forward for testing. As the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster said yesterday, of course, the vast majority of people not only come forward for a test, and want to come forward for a test, when they have symptoms, but want the isolation arrangements to be enforced fairly so that everybody isolates when they need to. That is the reason that we have taken the approach that we have, which I set out to the House several weeks ago.
James Daly (Bury North) (Con)
Since the beginning of the pandemic, there has been no recorded covid-19 outbreak in public houses in my constituency. Taking into account low national rates of transmission in pubs, when my right hon. Friend is in negotiations with colleagues from Greater Manchester, will he think very carefully before closing these covid-secure environments, which have spent thousands to ensure that they are secure, and cease introducing extra restrictions that will make trading an impossibility?
Matt Hancock
Nobody has stood up for the pubs and hospitality businesses in Bury more than my hon. Friend, and he makes an important argument about outbreaks. We also have to look at the backward contact tracing data, and at where measures to bring the virus under control have worked. I will happily have a further discussion with him to try to make sure that we can get the right set of measures and the right balance.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Secretary of State for his regular attendance in the Chamber and for his responses to questions. Will he outline the procedures and criteria for the vaccination schedule, bearing in mind that news reports state that a fully tested vaccine will be available in the near future? Does he agree that frontline workers in shops need to be part of the list of priority recipients, after the medically vulnerable, NHS staff and those in the caring profession?
Matt Hancock
Of course, no vaccine technology is certain, but the longer we go without bad news, the better things are, because we would hear if things had not gone well, so things are therefore progressing. The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation produces a prioritisation based on clinical advice and its clinical judgment on who ought to get the vaccine in what order. This is a really important question to ensure that we roll out the vaccine fairly and on an agreed basis. I will ask the Committee to look at the hon. Gentleman’s specific request to make sure that is taken into account. The Committee’s advice is very important for the Government decision that I hope the whole country can then get behind.
John Howell (Henley) (Con)
I make no apology for again bringing up the question of co-trimoxazole since I believe the drug can help very much in the fight against covid. Following the successful trials in India and Bangladesh, has there been any progress here?
Matt Hancock
My hon. Friend is right to raise that question, and I will write to him with a full update once I have taken advice from my clinical advisers and from Professor Jonathan Van-Tam, who leads on this area.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
At the weekend, Mrs Helen Perry, one of my constituents, contacted me to say her son and three of his flatmates at Northumbria university had tested positive for covid. They are all self-isolating, but despite that are being bombarded up to 10 times a day by NHS Test and Trace. It is the same story for Mr Brian Sayer and his family, who are self-isolating because a family member has tested positive. In Brian’s words, “We’re not stupid people; we don’t need pointless telephone calls every other day”, and Mrs Perry says, “What a waste of time and money.” When will the Secretary of State admit that the national system has failed, and when will he hand over testing and, more importantly, tracing to local directors of public health, who know their areas and their communities and know how to do test and trace properly?
Matt Hancock
The hon. Gentleman is completely wrong on two fronts. This has been a very consensual statement so far, and the hon. Gentleman—
Matt Hancock
The right hon. Gentleman has played a constructive part in getting the public health messages across in Northumberland, but he is wrong on two fronts. First, when NHS Test and Trace contacts people to remind them to self-isolate, that is based on the analysis we have done of what helps to ensure that people stay self-isolating.
Matt Hancock
Yes, because the isolation of people and their staying isolated is important. The right hon. Gentleman can complain that we are doing too much, but that is not normally the complaint I get from the Opposition.
The second point is that that must be, in the right hon. Gentleman’s words, handed over to local authorities. No, no, no; there has got to be teamwork with local authorities. It is teamwork that will help us get through this, not this attempt to separate people and say, “One side’s good, one side’s bad.” We are all on the same side in this fight against the virus.
Mr William Wragg (Hazel Grove) (Con)
Further to this consensual statement, we are all keen to be guided by the science, so what scientific behavioural assessment has been made of the effects of closing covid-secure venues on the likelihood of people meeting in one another’s homes instead, thus spreading the illness further? If my right hon. Friend has not got the information immediately to hand, perhaps he would care to write to me, as is the fashion.
Matt Hancock
I can answer the question. My hon. Friend makes an important point. The indirect evidence is that the number of hospital admissions due to people being over-inebriated has reduced since we brought those measures in, which is one indication that people are generally following the rules and, as I did, going home at 10 o’clock to make sure. The vast majority of people are following the rules.
Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab)
As the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on cancer, I thank the Secretary of State for a recent meeting regarding the Catch Up With Cancer campaign. I, too, pay tribute to those delivering frontline cancer services throughout the pandemic, but the 63% figure that he mentioned does not reflect the totality of the backlog, as the NHS has announced new figures since then. In August, the number of people waiting more than 52 weeks in England continued to surge to more than 110,000—the most in 12 years. The only way that the backlog will go away is through action and resources being deployed to tackle it. What progress has he made to address the need for a boost to cancer services, so that cancer does not become the forgotten “c”?
Matt Hancock
The hon. Lady is absolutely right to raise that issue. In my statement, I said that we have managed to reduce the backlog among the longest waiters, those who wait more than 104 days, by more than 63% and among those waiting more than 62 days by 44%. There is further work to do—of course there is—but the NHS has made significant strides on the backlog of people waiting for cancer treatment, and I pay tribute to all the work that it has done.
Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con)
The concern that many of us have is that restrictions can be imposed in a day, but take months to lift. In London, the restrictions were imposed not because of a higher level of infections, admissions to hospital or deaths, but because of a rapidly increasing rate of infection. If it turns out, when the Secretary of State conducts his fortnightly review next week, that the rate of increase of infection is no greater in London than in places in a lower tier, will he rescind those restrictions and return it to a lower tier?
Matt Hancock
My right hon. Friend makes an important point and, in a way, highlights that it is not just the case rate that matters; it is also the rate of change of the case rate, the over-60s case rate and the impact on hospitals. In the case of London, cases are over 100 per 100,000, which is a worrying level, but I really hope that the measures, and the people of London and all those who work here, can bring the case rate down so we can get out of it as fast as possible. Team London is, in fact, working on a proposed strategy for coming out of level 2, but the first thing that everybody in London has to do is follow the rules to get the rate of increase down, because it is only then that we can even start to consider the next steps.
Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab)
Earlier this year, at the start of the pandemic, the Government committed to give the NHS whatever resources it needed to deal with coronavirus. The NHS has that money for dealing with covid-19, but it will need more to enable it to catch up on all the conditions that need to be treated now that treatment is taking place. Will the Secretary of State commit to provide the funding and resources needed to carry out those vital treatments?
Matt Hancock
We have put in the extra resource that the hon. Lady mentions, which is important. Not only has the extra resource gone in, but we are hiring people to do the work and building the buildings in which it can be done. She raises an important point about the need to recover the backlog. I am really glad that in areas such as cancer and many others, the backlog is being worked through, but there is still more work to do.
Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con)
I support my right hon. Friend’s targeted approach. It is absolutely wrong, in my view, to close businesses and lock people in their homes in a broad-brush way in areas where the risks are much lower than elsewhere. He is following the right strategy.
I echo the comments of my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) about London. Many of my constituents have businesses across the border in south-west London, where it is not the case that the rate is over 100 per 100,000. There are large swathes of south-west London where it is well below that. Can the Secretary of State make sure that it is possible, as quickly as possible, to disaggregate those areas of London where the problems are less and to move back to a situation where those businesses can operate normally?
Matt Hancock
As my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond), who is no longer in his place, said at the start of this session, it is important to take a borough-by-borough approach, and I commit to doing that. Unfortunately, there are parts of south-west London, such as Richmond, that have an elevated case rate above 100. In London, this work has been done effectively and across party lines, working with the leaders of local councils and boroughs, as well as with the Mayor, but I will absolutely take into account the point that my right hon. Friend makes.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab) [V]
A number of families in my constituency are worried about the impact that isolation is having on their family members with dementia who are living in care homes with no visits allowed. In one case, a constituent’s mother phones her daily and threatens to take her own life because of the lack of contact with her family. The Minister for Care, the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Helen Whately), told the Select Committee on Health and Social Care last week that there would be a pilot for visiting in care homes, but that could be months away. The Secretary of State has talked today about visits when restrictions are reduced, but this situation is desperate for some families, so can he tell us when we can have regular meaningful visiting for every care home resident?
Matt Hancock
The hon. Lady raises a point that is heart-rending and important, as is the protection of care home residents from this disease. The situation is not quite as she said, in that we have different restrictions in different areas according to local circumstances, with a great deal of delegated authority to the local director of public health to make judgments on the extraordinarily difficult balance between allowing visitors—for exactly the sorts of reasons she set out—and protecting people who live in care homes from catching the disease. When the case rate is high in the community, that naturally increases the risk in care homes, not just because of visitors but because the staff working in care homes live in the community. I am sure she will agree that the best thing we can do is to keep the prevalence of coronavirus down, because that will help to protect the people in care homes as well.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
This time last week, I think the whole House welcomed the introduction by the Prime Minister of the three covid alert levels to provide some certainty about the levels at which measures would be introduced and what measures would apply in a given area. Rugby is currently on a downward trajectory, with fewer than 100 cases per 100,000, so can my right hon. Friend reassure my constituents that by sticking to the rules, we will remain in tier 1?
Matt Hancock
Yes. One of the advantages of the tier system is that it not only involves a clear set of actions that need to be taken if the cases go up, as happened in London last week, but also helps to motivate people in level 1 areas that in order to stay in level 1, the best thing to do is to follow the rules, to respect social distancing and to play their part in the reduction of the spread of the virus. Everybody who is living in a level 1 area can help to do their bit to stay in level 1 by following the rules on hands, face and space and following social distancing. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to point that out for Rugby, but the point applies right across the whole of England in areas covered by level 1.
Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (SNP) [V]
Given that the national minimum wage already falls far below the real living wage, does the Minister think that people will be able to survive this winter with their workplaces closed and receiving only two thirds of that amount? Will the Government not give consideration to the calls from the Scottish Government and English regional leaders to do the right thing and offer more assistance?
Matt Hancock
I am really proud to have been part of the Government who introduced the national living wage to increase the level of support for the lowest paid across the whole United Kingdom. That is one example of the UK Government working to improve the support and pay available for the lowest-paid people in Scotland and across the whole of the rest of the United Kingdom, alongside the unprecedented economic support that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has put in during this crisis.
Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
I wholly applaud my right hon. Friend’s approach of localised lockdowns, but does he agree that in an area such as Gloucestershire, where, mercifully, the number of cases is still relatively low, the tracking and tracing and advice on self-isolating could be improved by involving both national and local resources?
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
The Secretary of State said at the Dispatch Box last Tuesday, in support of the new three-tier system, that
“we are now acting to simplify and standardise the rules at a local level.”—[Official Report, 13 October 2020; Vol. 682, c. 198.]
At that point, Liverpool was put into tier 3, and the gyms were closed in Merseyside and Halton, but when Lancashire went into tier 3 on Friday, gyms there were allowed to remain open. What is the reason for that difference? He should straight away authorise the reopening of gyms in Merseyside and Halton. There is no evidence to support keeping them closed.
Matt Hancock
That decision was taken in consultation and agreement with the local area. Part of the work with local areas on this has been to agree the exact details of the package in level 3.
Dame Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con) [V]
At the moment, the only defence against the virus is modifying people’s behaviour. Cases of covid are rising in Buckinghamshire, and we want to stay in tier 1. Our NHS trust and council have taken the initiative and filmed a strong local public health message, which is now on YouTube and social media and is recorded by Dr Tina Kenny, our medical director, asking local people to follow the rules to reduce the spread of this highly contagious virus. Will the Secretary of State commend this communication from our local health trust and council and encourage other health authorities and clinicians—who people trust and have confidence in—to engage directly with their populations to send these vital messages out?
Matt Hancock
Yes. I applaud the work that has been done across Bucks to deliver public health messages and try to get the whole community to support the action that we all can play our part in and that my right hon. Friend rightly raises.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab) [V]
The Health Secretary really should admit that Serco has failed. If it was shared fairly across the country, the £12 billion for Serco would mean £300 million for the Liverpool city region alone. When will he give that level of funding to local public health teams, and when will he instruct Dido Harding to give local teams the data that is currently held by Serco, so that they can do the job that Serco has failed to do?
Matt Hancock
Given that we hit 300,000 tests a day for the first time over the weekend, I would have thought that the hon. Gentleman might have looked at the data and the improvement that is happening. [Interruption.] Opposition Members say, “not testing”. They used to complain about testing, and now that is going well. Contact tracing is getting better, and last week—[Interruption.] Last week, contact tracers in this country contacted more than double the number of people than the week before. Instead of having a go at all the people who are helping to solve this massive problem, the Opposition should get in support of them.
Robbie Moore (Keighley) (Con)
It has been demonstrated that far-ultraviolet C light emitted by krypton-chlorine lamps inactivates covid-19 on surfaces, as well as when coronavirus is airborne. Some fantastic research is being undertaken to look at that, notably by St Andrews University in Fife and Ninewells Hospital in Dundee, but also by a business in my constituency. Could my right hon. Friend outline how this potentially game-changing mechanism for inactivating the virus has been explored at Government level?
Matt Hancock
I have seen that research, and I would be happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss how it might be applied.
Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC) [V]
Diolch, Madam Dirprwy Lefarydd. Wales is to go into lockdown on Friday. Scotland, Northern Ireland and regions of north England are already in similar measures. The firebreak restrictions in Wales are tailormade for the health needs of Wales, but the Treasury’s support schemes are based on political considerations and what best serves the south of England. Will the Secretary of State commit to bringing forward the job support scheme by eight days—only eight days—and increasing the level of support to that of the first furlough scheme, so that more people in Wales can afford to stay safe?
Matt Hancock
Of course, the furlough scheme continues until the end of the month and the job support scheme replaces it. That is the reason for the timing. It is the premise of the right hon. Lady’s question that the job support scheme, like the furlough scheme, supports every single part of these united isles. It supports the whole UK, including Wales. It is the UK Government coming to the aid of every single person in difficult times. That is the approach we should be taking—supporting everyone, wherever they live in this great country.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) [V]
I thank the Secretary of State for yet again coming to the House to update us on the situation. I should think the whole House would like to congratulate him on being on target for 500,000 tests a day—that is quite remarkable. Some scientists say that 1% of those tests are false positives. In other words, 5,000 people a day who are reported to have covid-19—up to a quarter of them—might not have the disease. Does the Secretary of State have any suggestions for how that might be improved?
Matt Hancock
My hon. Friend asks an important question. The false positivity rate for the current technology—the PCR test—is much lower than that. The analysis of the false positivity rate published by the Office for National Statistics says that the impact of that rate is small. One of the exciting things about the new generation of technologies is that the false positivity rate is yet lower, further reducing the problem my hon. Friend sets out.
Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab)
The Secretary of State has had a good relationship with local authorities in the north-east and Sunderland, which I represent, but once again the request for funding for Test and Trace and for financial support has not been answered. He gave me a commitment last week that he would get an answer, as did the Prime Minister, and it still has not happened. In the meantime, people are nervous and businesses are on the brink of going under in the north-east. It is a very worrying time. Will the Secretary of State please talk to local authorities in tier 2 about the support that is needed on the ground to help communities and businesses survive this terrible crisis?
Matt Hancock
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government is having exactly the discussions that are needed to respond to the circumstances in, for instance, the north-east. The hon. Lady will understand that it is for him, rather than me, to discuss council finances with the councils. We are putting in extra support for Test and Trace, and linking up the data systems within the north-east. I will again leap to the aid of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor about the extent of the support he has put into areas that are particularly affected by the virus, including those with level 2 and 3 restrictions, and areas right across the country.
Simon Fell (Barrow and Furness) (Con)
Last week, the borough of Barrow in my constituency went into the high tier. I thank my right hon. Friend and his team for the work they have done to engage with local leaders. South Lakeland in my constituency remains in the medium tier. Constituents and businesses in towns such as Ulverston are concerned that people are travelling from one tier to the other and not sticking to the guidance and the rules. What advice would my right hon. Friend give on the importance of sticking to those rules in order to turn the tide on the virus for all of us?
Matt Hancock
My hon. Friend makes an incredibly important point: everybody needs to follow the rules to give Barrow the best chance of coming out of level 2 restrictions. If people live in a level 2 area, those rules apply to them even if they travel to a level 1 area. If people live in a level 1 area and travel to a level 2 area, when they are there the level 2 restrictions apply. I hope that is very simple for everybody to follow. He has provided great leadership in Barrow in describing so clearly why it is important for everybody to follow the rules. If we do, we can get this virus under control and get Barrow back into level 1, where I am sure everybody who lives there will want to see it.
Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op)
I have heard the Secretary of State say that he welcomes the Chancellor’s support, and he refers Members to that, but does he understand the impact on the ground, especially on small businesses? A constituent of mine in Clapham is a supplier to the hospitality sector and more than 50% of his business is with pubs, restaurants and hotels. He says that if there is a further downturn in this tier 2, he will not be able to stay afloat. The Government must listen to these small businesses and understand the real-world impact the situation is having. So will he ask the Chancellor what additional provisions the Government are going to put in place right now to help the hospitality sector?
Matt Hancock
Of course I will speak to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor about that. I come from a small business background, so I fully understand the challenges people face, including the cash flow ones. Nobody wants to have these restrictions in place for a moment longer than is necessary. If she has the concern that she understandably raises, perhaps she can help to explain why this localised approach of having only the restrictions needed for that area in place is the right one.
Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con)
Burnley has had additional restrictions in place for longer than most areas and is now in tier 3, the very high level. Although that is really difficult for residents and businesses, everyone wants to do the right thing, in order to bring the infection rate down. To do that, we need a sense of optimism and light at the end of the tunnel, so will the Secretary of State outline what the exit strategy is from tier 3 into tier 2 and then into tier 1? Will he also offer some reassurance that once the rate is down we have a way of containing it so that we do not move back up?
Matt Hancock
Yes. My hon. Friend has spoken for Burnley with such passion throughout this crisis. It has been very difficult for Burnley, which has now seen the highest case rate among the over-60s in the whole country. It is so important, to protect people in Burnley, that everybody follows the rules there. First, we have to get the case rate and the cases among the over-60s falling. Once that starts to happen we can talk about when we can start to relax the restrictions—I do not want to have them in place for a moment longer than is necessary. With the expansion of testing that we are seeing, I hope we will be able to have more tools at our disposal to hold the virus down once we have got it down again.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
Rebuilding confidence in Test and Trace is critical, yet the Secretary of State has taken the potentially counterproductive step of arranging for data to be shared with the police for enforcement. That could deter people from getting a test in the first place, as the chief medical officer has reportedly indicated. So will the Secretary of State acknowledge that a more effective strategy would be to ensure that people have the financial security they need in order to be able to follow the rules in the first place? Following on from the question from the hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson), will he answer on whether this memorandum of understanding exists? If it does, will he publish it? If he will not do so, will he explain what he is hiding?
Matt Hancock
There is no health data that is transferred, but of course once this House has voted for an enforceable rule, it is important for all of our constituents and communities that we enforce it. So that is a necessary consequence of the House having voted for the self-isolation rules to be made mandatory, which I think was the right decision. On the financial support that the hon. Lady asks for, we have put in place £500 per self-isolation to support people on low incomes to make sure that they are able to do the right thing.
Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
To prevent further restrictions being placed on York, we have to lock down this virus, not lock down people and the economy. We know that the key to this is local contact tracing, and the reality is that the shadow contact tracing undertaken by my local authority has been more accurate, more effective and more responsive. That is the key to getting on top of this virus, so when will the Secretary of State release all the data to local authorities and give them the resources they need so that they can do the job properly and get on top of the virus?
Matt Hancock
We are absolutely putting more resources into contact tracing in York. It is only because of the combined effort of the national and local team that we are able to do the work that she describes, because the national system can deal with the cases who are easy to get in contact with, or who prefer to do contact tracing over the internet, rather than on the phone, which is a lot of people. That means that the local authority, as in the case that the hon. Member describes, can do its work locally, so it is about having a team effort.
Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab) [V]
People will have seen images of packed rugby stadiums in New Zealand last week after the country announced that it had effectively ended domestic transmission of coronavirus. It followed a zero-covid strategy and has had a tiny number of cases over the recent period. As we face another wave of unnecessary deaths here, life is returning to normal there, so is the Secretary of State embarrassed that other countries have managed to drive down cases while his Government are failing?
Matt Hancock
We are doing everything we possibly can to suppress this virus. There have been some countries, and there have been some parts of this country, that have explicitly followed an eradication strategy. Unfortunately, there is not anywhere where that has worked permanently, and we have seen flare-ups in all parts of the world that have pursued an eradication strategy. The critical thing here is to suppress the virus, to get it under control, to keep it under control and for everybody to play their part.
Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con)
A further week has passed without agreement with Greater Manchester. However, Stockport Council has set up a pandemic response team working in the community, promoting covid-safe behaviour at pubs, bars, businesses, hairdressers and so on. Last week, it visited hundreds of businesses and found very good covid compliance. As the Secretary of State works to reach an agreement in Greater Manchester—I wish him the best of luck with that and hope it goes well—will he also consider a borough-by-borough approach and take into account the work done by local authorities with the leisure industry to try to get transmission rates down?
Matt Hancock
I know that many of the local authorities in Greater Manchester—in fact, all of them—have taken very seriously their statutory responsibilities to get the virus down, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who has been assiduous in her work to support her local community to do the right thing. I just hope now that we can come to an agreement with the GM leadership in the same way that we have come to an agreement with the Liverpool leadership and the Lancashire leadership. We are working with the West Yorkshire leadership, across the different boroughs there, with the South Yorkshire leadership, with the leadership in the north-east and with the leadership in Teesside in a highly constructive way, and I hope that we can do the same with Greater Manchester.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
My right hon. Friend has heard across the Chamber the real challenges that the hospitality industry is facing, especially in tier 2. Further to the comment from my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Robbie Moore) about emerging technology in air sanitisation, especially using UV, will the Secretary of State go further than in the promise to my hon. Friend and get a roundtable together as quickly as possible, so that we can work together and bring this technology forward—I have constituents who are ready to bring it forward—so that we may be able to get it into the hospitality sector more quickly and hopefully give the sector some relief?
Matt Hancock
Nobody has done more to support the pubs of Leeds than my right hon. Friend, and he is doing it again today, so let us turn the meeting into a roundtable. I will make sure that that happens in the next fortnight, and we will do all the work to bring this new technology to bear.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
Can I return the Secretary of State to care homes? He knows the utter dilemma that the care homes, their staff, their residents and all of their families face between allowing the infection into the home and causing such damage to the welfare of residents by not allowing visitors. He said earlier, in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley), that he was empowering directors of public health, which in some ways is welcome, but it needs a much more thought through plan than that and the Department of Health should be offering much more policy support. The Opposition have worked hard on a plan for care homes, so will he say what his Department is proactively doing?
Matt Hancock
The hon. Lady puts the sensitivity of this dilemma very appropriately. We have published a winter plan for care homes, which sets out our approach in this area and we are working on the implementation of that plan. I would be very happy for the Minister for Care, who leads on this, to meet her to discuss how we can make sure that that is best done most effectively in her area.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
Having been out in my Colne Valley constituency this weekend, it is clear that local people want the tier system to work, but that does mean that we need more financial support for tiers three and two, especially for hospitality, where custom is really down. Will the Secretary of State also lay out a clear framework for timescales and for how areas move within tiers so that businesses and communities in West Yorkshire can plan ahead?
Matt Hancock
I would love to be able to give timeframes, but, unfortunately, one thing about this disease is that it moves fast and sometimes we have to move fast, too, so it is better to say that I will always keep that under review. The critical thing is that, once this House has voted for an area to go into tier three, there will be an automatic review of that legislation after 28 days, and it will need to be proposed again—it is sunsetted after 28 days—which means that people can have confidence that it will be reviewed, but, of course, if we can review it quicker than that, then absolutely we will. I take my hon. Friend’s point on the financial support, and, again, I will discuss it with the Chancellor.
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
Why are the Government still forcing people arriving in this country from countries with far lower covid rates than us into a compulsory 14-day quarantine when it is absolutely crucifying the travel industry? Those people are far more likely to be infected here than they are in the countries they are arriving from.
Matt Hancock
We keep the countries on the quarantine list under review—absolutely we do—and that is a weekly exercise that is led by my right hon. Friend the Transport Secretary.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
There is now compelling evidence to suggest that vitamin D may be useful in reducing mortality and morbidity from this disease. It is safe, it is cheap, and it is already recommended by the Secretary of State’s Department for certain groups. Given our need to tackle this disease, and given that vitamin D requires three months to build up sufficiently to protect against respiratory infections, what advice will he give urgently on the use of this particular intervention?
Matt Hancock
We are increasing the communications to people about the benefits of vitamin D, and as I said to the House on Thursday last week, we are also instituting further research into the points that he, as an experienced and qualified medical professional, sets out so clearly.
Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
I am sure the Secretary of State will agree with me that to be effective, rules must be understandable and simple. Why in Merseyside, which is currently in tier 3, were all the gyms forced to close, but soft play was left open, and in Lancashire all the gyms were left open and soft play was closed? Surely that does not make any sense at all. Will he publish the evidence that he has and be consistent across tiers? Either all the gyms are open or they should all close. Which is it to be?
Matt Hancock
The baseline for tier 3 is set across the board, and then further measures are set out in consultation and agreement with the local area.
Damien Moore (Southport) (Con)
Following on from that question, the gyms in Lancashire are open, but the gyms in Merseyside are closed. The deal that was struck for us was not a good deal for my constituents in Southport. Will the Secretary of State review these restrictions as soon as possible and get our gyms open? They are part of the solution, not part of the problem.
Matt Hancock
Nobody has stood up for the gyms of this country more than my hon. Friend, and he has made this argument endlessly to me. He stands up for Southport, and I will take that point away. As I said to the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle), those decisions were taken in agreement with the local area, and we want—as much as possible—to make agreements with local areas so that we can all give out the same public health messages that if everybody follows the rules, we are more likely to get this under control and get the Liverpool city region out of tier 3 altogether.
Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)
I thank the Secretary of State for his kind words about Bill Anderson, the brother of the Mayor of Liverpool, who sadly died of covid. He was my constituent and was a doughty campaigner for the livelihoods and welfare of seafarers, and he will be very sadly missed by many of us.
In Liverpool, the Government’s Test and Trace system is reaching only 59% of contacts and in Knowsley, 57%—both well below the 80% target. The percentage of contacts reached has fallen over the last month by 3.5% in Liverpool and 9% in Knowsley, just as both areas have been placed in the very high tier 3 restrictions. Why are those figures so low, why are they declining and what will the Secretary of State do to improve that performance, because we really need it to be better?
Matt Hancock
The proportion of contacts that are reached that are in what are called complex settings in the system—for instance, in care homes it is relatively easy to find all the contacts by the nature of the setting—has itself fallen, as the number of cases has risen. If we look at the effectiveness of the system as a whole, both national and local, at reaching people in the community, we see that it has been broadly flat, as has the proportion reached in those complex settings where it is much easier and often the proportion is close to 100%. The challenge has been that as the number of contacts in the community has risen, so the overall proportion of those who are harder by their nature for the contact tracing system to reach has gone up. That is the direct explanation for the figures that the hon. Lady describes. The best solution to that problem is the combination of the national and local systems working together, and we are putting in place closer connection and extra financial support, both in Liverpool and Knowsley, as she sets out.
Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) (Con)
I commend my right hon. Friend for overseeing 300,000 tests a day across the country. Will the Minister thank care workers who do such tremendous work in care homes in Wealden? He will know our concerns about winter flu coming to care homes as well. I had a long meeting with care home providers across the constituency and they are incredibly pleased with the access to testing, but one care home in Uckfield complained that 25% of tests were not picked up by a courier—I know that my right hon. Friend will want to nip that in the bud immediately.
Matt Hancock
Throughout this, and even with the challenges with demand for testing that we saw last month, we kept the tests going to care homes because people who live in care homes are the most vulnerable. No matter what we do to protect care homes from coronavirus, the higher the number of cases in the community, with staff living in the community and, of course, people visiting where visits are allowed, there is more likelihood of a case getting into a care home. It is a sad fact of life. We do everything we possibly can to prevent that, as do the brilliant care staff who work in her constituency, to whom I pay tribute. On the particular point about a courier being late for a pick-up, I will look into that immediately and see if we can resolve that.
Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab)
On the Wirral, over a third of the people who have been in contact with someone with covid-19 have not been contacted by Test and Trace. Will the Secretary of State concede that outsourcing of Test and Trace is simply not working, and its responsibilities should now be given to the local public health teams?
Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con)
Although many of my constituents recognise that the decision to place Lancashire in tier 3 was indeed justified on public health grounds, it will nevertheless leave many of them, and those who own businesses, significantly worse off. There has to be a clear pathway out of tier 3 for those local authorities currently under such restrictions, so will my right hon. Friend clarify the basis on which the continuation of the restrictions will be reviewed and how often it will take place?
Matt Hancock
We will formally review the restrictions that are in place in Blackpool, alongside the rest of Lancashire, every 28 days, but that is a maximum, because if we manage to get the cases coming down before then, we will take areas out of level 3 restrictions. The goal for everybody in Blackpool should be to do their bit, play their part and follow the rules. Let us try to get the number of cases down so that we can restore some of our freedoms and, of course, support the businesses across Blackpool that are understandably struggling.
Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab) [V]
I echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle) and thank the Secretary of State for his tribute to my dear friend Bill Anderson, who will be a great loss to my whole region and to the maritime community.
The specific geography of Chester means that many of our businesses, which were viable until only a couple of weeks ago, are now being damaged on one side by the restrictions and the lockdown on the other side of the river—the Welsh border—which runs through Chester, and on the other side by the imposition of tier 3 in Merseyside. Chester is being crushed from both sides, but both Wales and Merseyside are being heavily supported financially, whereas that support is not available to businesses in the middle in Chester. Will the Secretary of State consider that effect and provide financial support so that we do not get crushed between two lockdowns?
Matt Hancock
Of course I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman makes. I know Chester well, and it has more pubs per head of population than any other city in the country, so the hospitality industry there is incredibly important. We are giving as much support as we possibly can, but we always keep these things under review. I look forward to working with the hon. Gentleman to support the people of Chester.
Holly Mumby-Croft (Scunthorpe) (Con)
I thank my right hon. Friend for his work. Will he give an update on the availability of the Roche reagent that Scunthorpe has seen a shortage of? Can he reassure me that those who need an urgent blood test can get one and that the lack of reagent will not affect covid tests?
Matt Hancock
Yes, I hope I can reassure my hon Friend on both points. First, we have largely resolved the problem of the supply of Roche kit for non-covid tests—mostly blood tests. There has been a huge amount of work on that and I thank my team and the Roche team for solving the problem with the warehouse in Kent. Secondly, I absolutely reassure my hon. Friend that the situation does not affect covid tests: although Roche supplies around 5,000 covid tests a day, they were protected throughout.
Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab)
At the beginning of last week, my constituents in Lancashire were already bound by local restrictions. Last week, the Secretary of State made it clear that Lancashire was being put into tier 2 restrictions, which was a relaxing of the restrictions that my constituents had been under at the beginning of the week; by Friday, my constituents were told that we were going into tier 3. This hokey-cokey of restrictions has left my constituents, who want to play by the rules, really confused as to what the rules are, even though they want to abide by them. I level with the Secretary of State: the communications that come from his Department need to be clearer.
I wish to ask the Secretary of State about support for businesses. Viable businesses in Lancashire are now knocking on the doors of our district councils to ask for financial support, but those district councils have not been told under what criteria they will be able to distribute that support and have not had the cash released from Government. When will the Secretary of State get a grip on this situation?
Matt Hancock
Again, I will defend the honour of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, who has put in huge amounts of economic support. On the first point, one of the reasons to go to the tier system and one of the reasons I think it was, at the time, widely welcomed across the House, was to have a system where people can much more straightforwardly understand the rules. I say to everybody living across Lancashire that the very high alert level in Lancashire is because we urgently need to get the case rate down. The thing everybody should do is follow the rules and restrictions that are in place. They are there for good reason and they are agreed across Lancashire. What we can all best do together is work together to get those rates down.
Katherine Fletcher (South Ribble) (Con)
I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement and for recent private meetings. The good people of Lancashire and South Ribble get that this is all about saving lives—full stop. However, they are weary of restrictions that have been going on for weeks and they are worried about their jobs. Can he assure me and them that we will be in the tier 3 restrictions for only as long as it takes to save lives?
Matt Hancock
The tier 3 restrictions are put in place when the local NHS is at risk of being overwhelmed. We will not keep people in restrictions for one moment longer than we need to. Nobody wants to have the restrictions in place. They are there for a reason and that reason is clearly set out, which, as my hon. Friend said, is to save lives with the minimum negative impact while protecting the economy and education, and supporting the NHS as much as possible. That is the strategy and I think it has very widespread support both in this House and among the public. The measures we put in place to deliver that have been put in place with the deepest reluctance. The single best thing that you, Madam Deputy Speaker, my hon. Friend or anybody in this country can do is abide by the rules and be cautious about social interaction—hands, face, space. That way, we can all help to restrict the spread of the virus and get it under control while we support our scientists to come forward with the innovations that will eventually get us out of all this.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. There will be a suspension of some minutes to allow safe exit and entry.
Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill
Monday 19th October 2020
(3 years, 6 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Act 2020 View all Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Act 2020 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Commons Consideration of Lords Amendments as at 19 October 2020 - (19 Oct 2020)
21:00 - The House divided: - Ayes: 335 / Noes: 254 - Question accordingly agreed to.
21:16 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 330 / Noes: 262 - Question accordingly agreed to.
21:30 - The House divided: - Ayes: 327 / Noes: 264 - Question accordingly agreed to.
21:44 - The House divided: - Ayes: 331 / Noes: 260 - Question accordingly agreed to.
21:58 - The House divided: - Ayes: 328 / Noes: 264 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I must draw the House’s attention to the fact that financial privilege is engaged by Lords amendments 4 and 5. If any Lords amendment engaging financial privilege is agreed to, I will cause the customary entry waiving Commons financial privilege to be entered in the Journal.
After Clause 1
Impact of section 1 on the social care sector
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Kevin Foster)
I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 1.
Madam Deputy Speaker
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Lords amendment 2, and Government motion to disagree.
Lords amendment 3, and amendment (a) thereto, and Government motion to disagree with Lords amendment 3.
Lords amendment 4, and Government motion to disagree.
Lords amendment 5, and Government motion to disagree.
Lords amendment 6, and Government motion to disagree.
Lords amendment 7, and Government motion to disagree.
Lords amendment 8, and Government motion to disagree.
Lords amendment 9, and Government motion to disagree.
Lords amendment 10, and Government motion to disagree.
Lords amendment 11.
I am sure colleagues will see that a large number of Members wish to contribute to this debate. We have had two quite lengthy statements, so there is pressure on time. That means we will be imposing an initial six-minute limit on speeches from Back Benchers. I hope that Front Benchers will keep their remarks as brief as possible in the circumstances to allow others to contribute.
Kevin Foster
This Bill delivers on a key manifesto commitment to end the EU’s rules on free movement, and to deliver our fairer and firmer points-based immigration system. I am pleased the Bill has passed its Third Reading in the other place, led by my colleague Baroness Williams of Trafford. For such a short Bill, there has been substantial debate on a wide range of immigration issues. There are issues on which Members disagree with the Government, but we must now enact this Bill and deliver on our promise to the British people. I will speak to each amendment in turn.
Lords amendment 1 requires publication of an independent report on the impact of ending free movement on the social care sector. Although it is well intentioned, the amendment is unnecessary because we already have independent reporting in this area through Skills for Care and the Migration Advisory Committee, which is now free to work to its own commissions in addition to those given to it by the Government.
The Department of Health and Social Care funds Skills for Care to deliver a wide range of activities to support the Government’s priorities for the social care sector. This includes programmes to support employers and the workforce with skills development, promote and support recruitment into the sector, and support leadership development. The Department of Health and Social Care uses the data produced by Skills for Care and the trends identified to inform its policy development to support the adult social care sector to recruit, train and develop its vital workforce.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
The social care sector is a typical example of where cheap EU labour has been brought in to undercut our own labour force. The public are really worried that, as EU migration has declined, so migration from other parts of the world has increased. I want the Minister to give a categorical assurance that, whatever happens with these negotiations, we will get a grip on migration from other parts of the world and we will not undercut our own workforce.
Kevin Foster
We have been very clear that we will have a points-based system that will respond to the needs of the United Kingdom’s labour market and workforce, and that our migration system will not provide an alternative to investing in and rewarding those who work in critical sectors such as social care.
As Members will know, I have previously spoken at length about the role of the Migration Advisory Committee, which now has an expanded remit to examine any aspect of the immigration system and to provide annual reports that Parliament can, and almost certainly will, debate. I have also outlined the Government’s continued commitment to keeping all policies, including the skilled worker route, under review. We do have the flexibility to adapt and adjust on the basis of experience and evidence. Hon. Members will have heard me say before that the immigration system cannot be the solution to issues in the social care sector. We must not continue to rely on people coming to the UK when the focus should be on the domestic workforce to address shortages in the sector. As was just touched on, migration policy should not be an alternative for employers to offering the type of rewarding packages that care staff deserve.
To deliver change to the social care sector, we need to make changes to the way that we train, recruit, attract and retain staff. The Government are focused on working alongside the sector, including through Skills for Care, to ensure that the workforce can meet the increasing demands and continue to deliver quality, compassionate care. Immigration must be part of our overall strategy for this sector’s workforce, not a handy alternative for employers to—
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
The Migration Advisory Committee has effectively recommended a significant increase in the pay of social care staff, which they urgently need—and they have been under immense pressure this year. Will the Minister accept that recommendation from the Migration Advisory Committee?
Kevin Foster
The right hon. Member will have seen the recommendations of the Migration Advisory Committee, and I know that my colleagues in the Department of Health and Social Care will consider them closely. I certainly hope that if she is keen on the MAC, she will support the Government’s position on the amendment in the Lobby later.
John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
Does the Minister accept that paying people from the local labour force better, and paying for their training, is a much cheaper solution than building lots of houses to invite migrants in, and a much more popular one?
Kevin Foster
My right hon. Friend points out that in a time when we have large numbers of people affected by the current economic situation, we need to focus on our own UK-based workforce when it comes to filling needs.
Kevin Foster
I am conscious that I need to make progress.
Lords amendment 2 seeks to continue certain family reunion arrangements provided by EU law—the so-called Surinder Singh route. It would require us to provide lifetime rights for British citizens resident in the European economic area or Switzerland by the end of the transition period to return to the UK accompanied or joined by their non-British close family members on current EU free movement law terms. In effect, that means that these rights would continue perpetually. Family members of British citizens resident in the EEA or Switzerland at the end of the transition period are not protected by the withdrawal agreement in terms of returning to the UK. However, we have made transition arrangements for them. British citizens living in the EEA or Switzerland will have until 29 March 2022 to bring their existing close family members—a spouse, civil partner, unmarried partner in a long-term relationship, child or dependent parent—to the UK on EU law terms. The family relationship must have existed before the UK left the EU on 31 January 2020 and continue to exist. Those family members will also then be eligible to apply to remain in the UK under the EU settlement scheme. Now that we have left the EU, we have to be fair to other British citizens, whether they are living overseas or in the UK, and to UK taxpayers who can be called on to pay the costs when family life is not established sustainably in the UK. In the long run, the same rules should apply to all, not continue indefinitely to give preferential treatment to those relying on past free movement rights that have been abolished. This is what a global immigration system means. However, I respect the points that my right hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet (Sir Roger Gale) has made to me, and, as with other things, we will continue to keep this area under review.
Lords amendment 3 provides for children in care and care leavers who lose their free movement rights to obtain indefinite leave to remain. I pay tribute to the noble Lord Dubs, who sponsored this amendment in the other place. The Government agree on the importance of protecting the rights of children in care and care leavers, and other vulnerable groups, as we end free movement. I have also appreciated the points made in a letter I replied to from my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton). We are providing extensive support to local authorities, which have the statutory responsibilities for this cohort, to ensure that these children and young people, like other vulnerable groups, get UK immigration status under the EU settlement scheme. This support includes the settlement resolution centre and grant funding of up to £17 million, to cover last year and this year, to organisations across the UK to support all vulnerable groups in applying to the scheme.
A survey of local authorities by the Home Office has so far identified fewer than 4,000 children in care and care leavers eligible for the EU settlement scheme, with over 40% of those having already applied for status under it, and with most of those who have applied having already received an outcome of settled status. The Government have made it clear, in line with the withdrawal agreement, that where a person eligible for status under the EU settlement scheme has reasonable grounds for missing the 30 June 2021 deadline, they will be given a further opportunity to apply. We have also made clear that those reasonable grounds will include where a parent, guardian or local authority does not apply on behalf of a child. Therefore, if a child in care or a care leaver misses the deadline, they will still be able to obtain lawful status in the UK. There is no time limit to what may be reasonable, so an application today from a person who is a child aged eight would be reasonable if they discovered at age 18 that their local council had not applied for them.
The Government are not, therefore, persuaded of the need for this amendment. Applicants under the age of 21 are already granted immediate settled status under the EU settlement scheme where a parent has that status. The idea of applying such a provision retrospectively runs counter to the general operation of the immigration rules.
Kevin Foster
I have to make progress.
I will now turn briefly to Lords amendment 4, which relates to family reunion and unaccompanied asylum-seeking children. I understand the important issues that this amendment seeks to address, and confirm the Government’s commitment to the principle of family unity and supporting vulnerable children. The Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel), recently announced at the Conservative party conference our intention to reform our broken asylum system to make it firm but fair, and we intend to bring forward legislation next year to deliver on that intention. Our reformed system will be fair and compassionate towards those who need our help by welcoming people through safe and legal routes; it will, though, be firm in stopping the abuse of the system by those who misuse it— especially serious or persistent criminals—simply to prevent their removal from this country.
We have a proud record of providing safety to those who need it through our asylum system and resettlement schemes, and we have granted protection and other leave to more than 44,000 children seeking protection since 2010. The UK continues to be one of the highest recipients of asylum claims from unaccompanied children across Europe, receiving more claims than any EU member state in 2019 and 20% of all claims made in the EU. However, now we have left the European Union, it does not make sense in the long term to have a different set of provisions for those in fundamentally safe and democratic countries than for those in the rest of the world, unless those provisions are based on effective reciprocal agreements relating to returns and family reunification. We have made a credible and serious offer to the EU on new arrangements for the family reunion of unaccompanied asylum-seeking children, and it remains our goal to negotiate such an arrangement, but the UK does provide safe and legal routes for people to join family members in the UK through existing immigration rules, all of which are unaffected by our exit from the European Union, such as the provisions under part 11 of the immigration rules.
Lords amendment 5 would require the Secretary of State to offer a physical document free of charge to any EEA citizen who applies for leave or has been granted leave under the EU settlement scheme. As announced earlier, this amendment engages financial privilege, so I will not debate it specifically, but I will point out that the House has considered that proposal on a number of occasions, and has declined it each time. We have made such a move across our migration system: in particular, we are looking at the British national overseas visa route, which will also use an electronic system. Again, that is similar to other countries: for example, Australia has had such a system since 2015.
Kevin Foster
I am going to have to start making some progress.
Lords amendments 6, 7 and 8 relate to detention time limits—an issue that is not directly relevant to the purpose of the Bill, which is to end free movement. In addition, at the heart of the Bill is a commitment to a global system and equal treatment of immigrants of all nationalities as we exit the transition period. On the broader point, imposing a 28-day time limit on detention is not practical and would encourage and reward abuse, especially of our protection routes. No European country has adopted anything close to a time limit as short as that proposed in these amendments, and comparable nations have not gone down this route at all.
However, I recognise the point made by those who are concerned about this issue. As I said when we discussed a very similar amendment tabled on Report, we want to reform the system so that it makes a quicker set of decisions, and for our position to be clear that detention is used when there is no alternative, or when there is a specific need to protect the public from harm.
Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con)
My hon. Friend will be aware that many of us across the House are concerned about the fact that there is not a limit. He is absolutely right that what is required is an international convention and international agreement on this issue. Nevertheless, for some people to be detained indefinitely having committed no crime is a matter of concern, and I would like my hon. Friend’s commitment that he will keep this matter under review within the Home Office.
Kevin Foster
I thank my right hon. Friend for his constructive intervention. We will absolutely keep it under review. I gently say that it is not possible to detain someone indefinitely as such; they can apply for immigration bail, and we have to meet a test that says there is a reasonable prospect of their removal. My right hon. Friend will appreciate that, similarly, there are instances where it is out of the Home Office’s hands, or even this jurisdiction’s hands, and we cannot immediately remove someone by a particular day.
Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)
Will the Minister give way?
Kevin Foster
Very briefly, because I am conscious of the number of Members waiting to speak.
Mr Carmichael
Last year, the Government had to pay out £7 million to 272 people who were wrongfully detained. Was that good value for money?
Kevin Foster
I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that the law on detention is very similar to that pre-2015, when he was in the Cabinet. Immigration detention is part of our rules, but we have been reducing its use over recent years; again, it should be a last resort when other methods cannot be used. However, I say again with regret that introducing a 28-day limit would allow people to exploit the system and would actually run contrary to our ability to run an effective system.
I turn to Lords amendment 9. I appreciated the chance today and over the weekend to have significant conversations on this subject with my right hon. Friends the Members for Maidenhead (Mrs May) and for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley), who have had a strong passion and commitment to this area over a long period. Lords amendment 9 would require arrangements to be made in the immigration rules for the granting of leave to remain to confirmed victims of modern slavery who are EEA citizens, in specified circumstances. We believe that the amendment is unnecessary, for reasons that I will briefly set out.
Currently, confirmed victims of modern slavery who are foreign nationals from non-EEA countries and who do not already have immigration status are automatically considered for a grant of discretionary leave to remain. By “automatically” I mean they do not have to apply for it. Our national referral mechanism arranges for that consideration if, after a decision has been reached, there are conclusive grounds to believe that someone is a victim of modern slavery. EEA citizens are not automatically considered in that way, as many are likely to be exercising free movement rights and therefore do not require a grant of discretionary leave under UK immigration rules. They may, however, apply for discretionary leave if they wish.
However, to address some of the points that have been made, following the end of free movement, EEA confirmed victims who do not already have permission to stay in the UK, for example though our EU settlement scheme, will be treated in the same way as other foreign national victims and therefore receive automatic consideration for a grant of discretionary leave. The published policy will be amended to make that clear beyond 1 January 2021; the recent publication reflects the guidance that needs to be followed today, with free movement rights still in place.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)
My hon. Friend knows that I spoke overnight to the Home Secretary and we agreed that this was an anomaly and needed to be sorted, so I am pleased that he now commits to doing it. Will he also, however, commit to having a full and proper set of discussions with Lord McColl, me and others about the possibility of introducing modern slavery victims support legislation to iron out many of these anomalies?
Kevin Foster
I thank my right hon. Friend for his constructive intervention. Yes, certainly; I am more than happy to engage with him about how we can look at this process. He will realise that it is not just in this area where there has traditionally been a difference, because EEA nationals have freedom of movement rights, so it would be odd to grant them status under immigration rules, but I am certainly happy to have that conversation. I also reassure Members that we would consider someone’s being held as a modern slave as reasonable grounds for a late application to the EU settlement scheme. I say gently that it would be unhelpful to have two very similar sets of criteria, one under the immigration rules and one under policy, so we do not accept Lords amendment 9.
Having been through the more contentious areas, I hope that Members support Lords amendment 11, which was introduced in reaction to feedback in the other place. I hope that Members accept the reasons I have outlined why the Government cannot accept the Lords amendments that we ask the House to disagree with, but I hope that they have a sense of the Government’s commitment to the issues raised.
Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to be at the Dispatch Box for the return of this incredibly important piece of legislation. I thank peers in the other place for their detailed work on the Bill. We welcome the amendments that have been secured, most of them with significant majorities; several of the improvements before us today demonstrate cross-party support.
Lords amendment 1 would require the Secretary of State to commission and publish an independent assessment of the impact of ending free movement on the social care sector. The Government’s intransigence on this matter has been beyond disappointing. This Bill has been an affront to those migrant workers working on the frontline in social care. To have clapped them on a Thursday night and then told them that they are unskilled and therefore not welcome on a Monday is both disrespectful and shameful.
Members on both sides of the House have witnessed the vulnerabilities across our health and social care sector, which, despite the best efforts of its dedicated workforce, has been pushed to the limits over the course of the pandemic. Unison, the UK’s largest trade union, represents our dedicated public sector workers, including social care workers, across the UK. We have worked closely with Unison, which has supported and represented workers throughout the pandemic. With its in-depth knowledge of the sector and foresight, it has articulated its vision of social care in its “care after covid” campaign to address the fault lines that were so exposed throughout the last six months. To propose a Bill that will make radical changes to the recruitment of social care workers without considering the impact is simply negligent and careless governance.
The Minister referred to the Migration Advisory Committee; in its recent report, commissioned at the request of the Home Secretary, it expressed concerns about the social care sector and argued that if necessary funding and pay increases do not materialise urgently, it would expect the end of freedom of movement to increase the pressure on the social care sector. That would be particularly difficult to understand at a time when so many care occupations are central to the covid-19 pandemic frontline response.
These remarks should unsettle the Government and spur them into action, and I fully expect that if the Government do not listen, on the day that the new points-based immigration system is implemented we will still be deeply entrenched in the battle against coronavirus. If we do not do our due diligence by adopting this amendment, the Bill is set to undermine social care recklessly at a time when we can least afford it, so we urge the Government to reconsider their position, commission the impact assessment and understand the impact of the Bill on the social care workforce, on visas and on the consequences for recruitment, training and staff terms and conditions.
Amendment 4 would ensure there are safe refugee family reunion routes after Dublin III ceases to be available in the UK following the end of the UK-EU transition period. I want to place on record my thanks to the brilliant and inspirational Lord Dubs for his tireless work and leadership on this amendment in the other place.
A great deal has been said about immigration over the summer and we on the Labour Benches want in the strongest possible terms to distance ourselves from the Home Secretary’s dangerous rhetoric and to thank those lawyers who play such an important role in ensuring that the UK is upholding its international and legal obligations. The amendment demonstrates the future for one of the safe and legal routes we have all advocated for over the summer.
The Dublin III regulation is for family reunion and represents legal routes to safety from Europe for children seeking to come to the UK. Family reunion under Dublin III is currently the only legal pathway to reach the UK from the EU for the purposes of claiming asylum. It will no longer apply after the transition period. If we do not seek to address this issue, I fear that we will see more images of people making precarious and life-threatening journeys on dinghies across the channel.
The Government will say that they have a draft proposal for family reunion; however, it is apparent that their proposal is woefully inadequate. The proposals remove all mandatory requirements to activate family reunions. They remove the child’s right to appeal against refusal, and some children would not be covered by the narrower definition of family which Parliament passed in a 2017 Act.
Other safeguards have been removed, too, such as deadlines. According to one non-governmental organisation, 95% of people helped by NGOs to obtain a right of passage would fail the test proposed by the Government. Existing immigration rules also fail to cover this specific area, and therefore this amendment gives Parliament a chance to enshrine in law the basic principle of family reunion.
This issue is incredibly salient and our thoughts are still fixed on the suffering and horrors caused by the fire at the Moria refugee camp in Lesbos. The scale of that tragedy could have been minimised.
We all heard the pleas before the incident to the Greek Government for help with numbers at the camp, yet the calls were ignored by the people in power.
It is worth noting that the number of people who have come in under Dublin III has historically been very small. Up to 2014, there were 10 or 11 a year, and since 2016, a little over 500 have come in under it. We hear about the Government’s proposed fairer borders Bill on asylum, but those children cannot wait. We are asking the House to use its power to give transformative opportunities to innocent children who, through no fault of their own, have found themselves fleeing persecution and destitution.
Matt Rodda
Does my hon. Friend agree that having physical proof is deeply reassuring to many older people in particular, some of whom might not be familiar with IT and might feel that an IT-based system alone does not give them the security they so want?
Bambos Charalambous
My hon. Friend is exactly right. Many people have been confused about what status they have because of the emails they have received.
Dr Julian Lewis
I warmly endorse the last intervention the hon. Gentleman took. Governments of all stripes surely have enough experience of digital disasters to know that people need to have something tangible on which they can rely if they request it and if they feel insufficiently confident that a digital system guarantees that they can prove their status.
Bambos Charalambous
The right hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point. We need to ensure that there is documentation, because we have seen the failings of other IT systems in the past and cannot allow that to happen again, especially on an issue as important as people’s rights.
Although we are open to the Government’s aspiration to move towards a digitally-focused system for all UK immigration, we are also aware of the internal failings that prevail within the Home Office. With that in mind, we urge the Government to think again about adopting Lords amendment 5.
Lords amendment 9 would give EEA and Swiss nationals who are victims of trafficking at least 12 months’ leave to remain and access to benefits during their period of recovery after being confirmed as victims of modern slavery. I thank Lord McColl for all his work on this issue and congratulate him on garnering considerable cross-party support. There is an unfortunate absence of domestic statutory provision in England and Wales for confirmed victims of human trafficking on their rights to support and assistance. Over the years, that deficiency has been filled by EU law.
As things stand, following the end of the UK-EU transition period on 31 December, human trafficking victims will be left in an undefined legal vacuum. Following the end of the EU settlement scheme, victims of human trafficking who are EEA or Swiss nationals will be able to apply only for discretionary leave to remain. The criteria for that are very narrow and it is unclear whether the same treatment as that for non-EEA nationals will apply.
Lords amendment 9 would provide much needed refuge and support to people who have suffered unimaginable uncertainty and abuse. We hope that the Government will support it. We must tackle the systemic factors that lead to modern slavery, provide support to those who are affected, and encourage more people to come forward to end the perpetual cycle of abuse and crime. I heard what the Minister said, and we wait with interest to see what the Government will come up with, particularly in respect of support for victims of modern day slavery.
To conclude, this is a bad Bill: it is reckless and ignores the evidence. The Lords amendments, many of which have cross-party support, are a genuine attempt to address those failings. If passed unamended, the Bill will lead to staff shortages in our care system at a time when it is perilously close to collapse; encourage dangerous crossings, as it fails to address safe family reunion routes after Dublin III; and lead to a lack of safeguarding and support for victims of modern day slavery. The amendments have been well debated both here and in the other place, and I urge the Minister to accept them.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
We now have a time limit of six minutes.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith
I am grateful to be called to speak at this particular point, Madam Deputy Speaker. It was the Centre for Social Justice, which I set up and had the fortune to chair, that published the original document that pushed the Government into passing the first modern-day slavery legislation, a matter of which they are rightly very proud, and that made the UK the first country in the world to bring forward such legislation. That legislation now needs overhauling. That has been the case for some time. The recent report, “It still happens here: Fighting UK Slavery in the 2020s” states:
“For many, having no recourse to public funds poses further barriers to moving people on safely, putting victims at risk of homelessness and destitution, and making it more likely that they will fall back into exploitation and trafficking.”
The one thing that we can learn from recent events in places such as Leicester, where we have uncovered the most appalling abuse of individuals who have been victims of slavery, working for a pittance and living in terrible accommodation, is that we really do not want to see that repeated in the UK. That is the point that I want to make in my speech today.
There must be some kind of recourse to public funds for victims of modern slavery, which will make them more secure than they are at the moment. We need to make that case in legislation. I am pleased that the Government have moved on the issue of European economic area nationals and recognised that there was some contradiction in what they were proposing in their guidance. I notice that a paragraph was inserted into the guidance after Lord McColl’s amendment had been passed, which, had it been there originally, might have meant that there would have been no need for this particular amendment. Two contradictions were made but I do not have the time to go through them now, so Members will have to read about them themselves. None the less, I am pleased that the Minister said from the Dispatch Box that the Government have now rectified that matter and that non-EEA and EEA nationals will now be treated the same when it comes to discretionary leave to remain. That is a really important move. Having spoken to the Home Secretary and got that guarantee from her, it is a great pleasure to hear it from the Dispatch Box.
There has always been a problem with discretionary leave to remain and it was made worse by a Minister back in 2017 saying that there must be exceptional or compelling reasons to justify granting it. The bar has been set too high, and it is really important for us to recognise that people who come here having suffered the real persecution of slavery need to have a little more consideration shown for their position. They are not in the same boat as pure asylum seekers. In fact, those people can get a much longer period of time; whereas somebody who has genuine problems and who has been abused finds their time curtailed. That is why we need to look further than just at what the Government are doing here. I recognise that, perhaps today, this Bill is not the right way to try to press this matter forward, but I do say to the Government that there is another way.
I recognise also that the problem on that score is that a confirmed refugee can get five years’ leave to remain, but a confirmed—I repeat “confirmed”—victim of modern slavery gets no leave to remain at all. It seems to me that we have got ourselves in a twisted position, not because the Government—or any Government—want to be there, but because we have an anomaly, which we now need to rectify. That is the point that I really want to make in the short time available.
It is expensive for us to take someone through the national referral mechanism, conclude that they are genuine victims of modern slavery, but not provide adequate care. Those people remain very vulnerable and are quickly re-trafficked. As I said earlier, Leicester is a very good example of that, but there are other cities in the UK where people are drifting into these terrible conditions because they have nowhere else to go, or, for that matter, going into the national referral mechanism but facing uncertainty over ongoing care. They do not have the capacity to give evidence in court against their traffickers and that is the one thing that we want them to do. We need to be able to prosecute the traffickers to make sure that they never do it again. We need to think about this very carefully, so I have an ask of the Government—I said this when I intervened on the Minister. He needs to make sure that the change to the guidance is included and seen in the other place and that, critically, Lord McColl and others recognise that this has been done and that it is not just a gesture.
Secondly, I ask the Minister seriously—he said he was prepared to do this—to bring all this together in a new Bill that deals with the problems that we have now found. This is a good Bill, but we now find problems coming through relating to the abuse of people who are confirmed as having been brought in under modern-day slavery conditions and who we need to give support. I recognise that the Government are worried about people using modern-day slavery provisions as a route in, but the numbers coming in and getting a claim are so tiny that we can surely manage this. I understand the position in respect of failed immigration and people on asylum, but this is a very peculiar group that needs our care. If the Minister can commit to a discussion about future legislation with myself, Lord McColl and others in this place who would wish to be part of that, we may be able to make some progress on that.
Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith), who always speaks so expertly on issues of modern slavery.
The Lords amendments ask three important questions of MPs. First, are we going to protect and promote fair treatment for families and family unity? Secondly, will we look out for the most vulnerable? And thirdly, do we listen to legitimate concerns raised by communities impacted by migration policy? If the answer to those questions is yes, as it should be, we must oppose the Home Secretary’s motions and support the amendments made in the House of Lords.
Let me start my whistle-stop tour with Lords amendment 2, which is designed to protect families. The fact is that in the UK we have some of the most restrictive family visa immigration rules in the world, splitting up tens of thousands of British citizens and children from their spouses and parents. Sadly, that regime is now to be extended to British citizens and settled persons who happen to fall in love with European nationals. There is now little we can do to stop that, but we can stop the rules applying to British citizens who are already living elsewhere in the EEA with non-UK spouses and their families.
When such citizens left here and established family life elsewhere in the EEA, they had absolutely no reason ever to suspect that their ability to return would be restricted. This is not, as the Government have tended to suggest in some debates, about avoiding or circumventing rules; it is about British citizens having a legitimate expectation of an unrestricted right to return with their family. The Government should respect that expectation. On the one hand, the Government have, to an extent, recognised the particular circumstances of this group by providing a grace period, which is good in so far as it goes, but the grace period does not solve the problem; it simply postpones this deep unfairness for a couple of years. Basically, the Government are saying to many families, “You need to decide by March 2022. You can come back before then, uprooting your family, even in the most difficult of circumstances; otherwise, you will need to stay away altogether.” What the Government should do instead is simply remove the unfairness altogether and exempt this fixed and finite cohort from the rules forever. I really cannot see why that is such a difficult ask of the Government.
Lords amendment 4 is also about the importance of family unity. It is about protecting some of the most vulnerable people out there: people, including unaccompanied children, seeking asylum. It is not just common sense but common decency that says that this is the right place for an asylum claim to be considered if the applicant has a family connection here or if it is in the best interests of a child. As Lord Dubs said in the other place, this is not about the UK taking responsibility for all unaccompanied children; it is about taking our fair share of responsibility.
The Dublin system is far from perfect, but so many families have benefited from it, and indeed the UK has benefited from the system as well through the contribution that those asylum seekers and refugees have made. Alternative options in immigration rules, such as the exception route, are way too limited in scope and just will not do as an alternative. Whatever is or is not happening with negotiations, these people should not be the victims or the latest bargaining chips.
Lords amendment 3 would benefit another vulnerable group—children in care and care leavers—by fast-tracking their access to the settled status scheme. It would allow all children in those groups to proceed to fully settled status, rather than creating another cliff edge for a later date with pre-settled status. The Government have themselves acknowledged—the Minister acknowledged it today—that fewer than half of eligible children in those categories have applied to the settlement scheme with just eight months left to go.
The new approach in the Lords amendment is a practical, reasonable and now, I would say, urgent compromise, after Government arguments against an earlier iteration of the amendment that referred to deemed leave. It is just a practical way to assist the Government in achieving as broad a reach as possible for the EU settlement scheme. Having said that, I echo what Lord Dubs said when moving the amendment, which was that local authorities and the Home Office must also make sure that children entitled to British citizenship have full access to that without unnecessary fees and barriers. Although welcome, it is not enough for the Government to state that late applications from these groups would be accepted; although that is better than not accepting such late applications, we should be doing everything possible to avoid any period of their being undocumented, and all the huge difficulties and stresses that that can entail. So we support this amendment, and my amendment (a) would simply increase its scope to include another group of care leavers under legislation in Scotland, something that the Scottish Government have written to the Minister about.
Lords amendment 9 relates to a group of people who could not be any more vulnerable: the victims of the awful crimes of modern slavery. I pay tribute to Lord McColl and various other members of the all-party group on human trafficking and modern slavery, including the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green, for their relentless pursuit of this issue. Our party will always support immigration leave being granted where that is required for such victims to put their lives back together, and that is exactly what Lord McColl’s amendment seeks to do. I agree with the observations of the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green—I was listening to the exchange between him and the Minister, and we will follow the progress in that regard—that we need to go further still. There are rights being lost for the victims of modern slavery from the European economic area, and we have not got ourselves into a place yet where those rights are being adequately replaced.
On the detention amendments, too many victims of modern slavery, far from being given a short grant of leave to remain to help rebuild their lives, end up instead in our hideous immigration detention estate, along with scores of others who should never be there. During the pandemic the numbers detained have dropped significantly and we should be aiming to keep numbers as low as possible. As the Minister said, detention should be a matter of last resort, and it should be for the absolute minimum period necessary, but the figures show that a majority of people detained are simply released again into the community. It is a badge of shame that the UK continues to be an outlier in failing to place any defined limit on detention. We are dealing with basic but fundamental principles: the right to liberty and the requirement for speedy judicial oversight of any deprivation of liberty.
Lords amendments 1 and 5 highlight the Government’s failure to listen to serious concerns. As we have heard, Lords amendment 1 flags up the huge danger that an end to free movement and the design of the future immigration system pose to the care sector. It is similar to an amendment tabled when this Bill was first in this place by my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Brendan O'Hara). It is totally wrong to talk of cheap labour undercutting the resident workforce here; we should be expressing our gratitude for the amazing work that EEA citizens are doing in our social care workforce. The danger to the care sector has been spelled out by the sector and by the Government’s own Migration Advisory Committee, not just last week but repeatedly. Yes, the long-term future of care will require greater investment and better pay, but the Government have shown no indication or inclination to suggest that they are going to fix that any time soon, never mind in the two and a half months between now and the end of free movement. So to take this step in the middle of the coronavirus pandemic is just jaw-droppingly reckless. As the MAC said, ending free movement will
“increase the pressure on the social care sector, something that would be particularly difficult to understand at a time when…care”
is so
“central to the… pandemic frontline response.”
The Government are not listening to the MAC, but perhaps a review that would follow this amendment would force them to listen.
Finally, let me close by discussing Lords amendment 5 and paying tribute to those in the3million campaign group for their perseverance, even when it seems that the Government do not listen. Now their modest ask is that they are not used in the Home Office’s moves to go digital; they are simply asking that, like everybody else, they are provided with the physical means of proving their status here. The Minister referred to the example of Australia, but it spent five to 10 years trialling that system with a physical document as back-up. This is first about technology: the fact that someone’s legal status and rights can be verified only by a Home Office system, and all the risks inherent in that.
Dr Julian Lewis
In support of what the hon. Gentleman is saying, let me say that it is not that millions of these documents would have to be issued; they would be issued only to people who felt the need to request them.
Stuart C. McDonald
Absolutely, and it would be the perfect trial of the Home Office system; if it really works as the Home Office anticipates, there will not be a demand for it. If the Home Office has confidence in the system, it should have nothing to fear from this. It is about not just technology, but human nature. We know that discrimination is a feature of the hostile environment policy, as private citizens are forced by the Government to do checks. They face harsh penalties if they get those checks wrong, so they will, as a result, play it safe. The danger is that a property will be let to, and a job will be offered to, a person with a passport and a visa, instead of to a person with a piece of digital code, all other things being equal. The3million is simply asking to have the same reassurance that everybody else has access to, and we should provide that.
The amendments could have a transformative effect for many marginalised and vulnerable people. They would enhance family unity and provide additional reassurance for those most directly impacted by Brexit. They could be a small silver lining on what we regard as an awful Bill. We should stand by the House of Lords’ amendments.
Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con)
I rise to speak to a number of amendments. I declare my interest as co-chair of the all-party group on human trafficking and modern slavery, which I chair with the noble Baroness Butler-Sloss from the other place.
I will not repeat what my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) said, because I agree wholeheartedly with every word, but, if I may, I will add to his comments. Just today, the organisation ECPAT published a freedom of information request which found that just 28 children who were confirmed victims of trafficking were granted discretionary leave to remain in the UK between 2016 and 2019. I therefore say to the Minister that the statistics do not stack up with the words we are hearing from the Dispatch Box. I know he is a good man and he wants to do the right thing, but we need to deliver as a Government so that the statistics back up what is being said.
The key point here is that we want to see prosecutions. We will not break the cycle of this horrendous crime if we do not bring the perpetrators to justice. That means having victims here in the United Kingdom who are able to testify, able to give evidence and able to bring the perpetrators to justice. It is incredibly important that the Government bear that in mind, because, as with all hidden crimes, without support given to the victims, who are the most vulnerable people imaginable and who have been through the most hideous experiences, we will never break the cycle and bring the perpetrators to justice.
I urge the Minister not just to support what my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green said about support for victims, but to implement all measures from the Modern Slavery Act 2015. That was an excellent, groundbreaking and world-leading Act—we are using lots of clichés—but so much of it has not yet been implemented. If it was implemented fully, we would see so much more success with prosecutions, which is what we all want.
I will speak very briefly on Lords amendment 3. I urge the Government to deliver on this matter. Communication is absolutely key. We need to ensure that people who are entitled to claim settled status know about it. The international reputation of the United Kingdom is at risk here. Getting this wrong will not enhance the view of us by others in the world. We need to make sure that we get it right.
I want to focus the majority of my time on Lords amendment 4. I thank all Ministers for their engagement over the weekend. I spoke to Minister on the Front Bench—the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster)—and to other Ministers in the Home Office. I know there is concern to make sure we get this right, but again it goes back to the point that we must help the victims, because we can never break the cycle of crime that is getting people to the point where they are in Calais, Dunkirk and Zeebrugge unless we can help the victims.
I gently say to the Minister—he is not guilty of this, but I gently say it to all Ministers—that we must not think of victims as good victims or bad victims. When a constituent who has been the victim of a fraud or other crime comes to our surgery, we might well think to ourselves, “Well, buyer beware, and you should have realised when this too-good-to-be-true offer was put in front of you. Maybe you should not have accepted it or given your bank details,” or whatever else it might be. However, we do not judge. We do not say, “We are not going to take your case, because you’re a bad victim who brought it on yourself.” Instead, we say to our constituents, “Of course we will take your case to Parliament. Of course we will raise it with Ministers. Of course we will take it to the highest authorities.” The same applies to the victims of traffickers. If somebody has been trafficked to Calais, Zeebrugge or Dunkirk, it is because they believe there is a chance of a better life. Whether they are educated and should have known better or whether they are very vulnerable victims, they are still entitled to be listened to and heard. It is clear from so many hidden crimes that until victims are believed and listened to, we cannot break the cycle.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
I am very pleased to follow the right hon. Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley), and I agree with the points that she made.
Last month, the Home Office published its comprehensive improvement plan in response to the Windrush scandal, with a big focus on listening to what outside organisations say, presumably with the intention of taking some notice of it. Simply ignoring the concerns that people have raised and ploughing on regardless is the reason why we ended up with the Windrush scandal in the first place.
In her foreword to the comprehensive improvement plan, the Home Secretary said:
“Today, the Home Office is already a very different place. We are listening to community leaders and organisations and urgent change is underway”.
I was hoping that that was not just hot air, but there is absolutely no hint of that change of heart in what the Minister has said to us this afternoon. He has rejected out of hand all the Lords amendments. He was speaking for the old Home Office, not the new Home Office that we have been promised in the comprehensive improvement plan.
I will focus my short remarks on one of the amendments in particular—Lords amendment 5—which was raised in the excellent opening remarks from my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Bambos Charalambous), as well as by the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Stuart C. McDonald), the SNP spokesperson, and it was supported in interventions by Members on both sides of the House. Support for the amendment has been underlined by a community organisation in my constituency. I will refer to that in a moment but I underline again that, as elsewhere in the Bill, community organisations, trade unions and businesses all agree. I quote in particular what the business group, London First, said about Lords amendment 5:
“With so much immigration control now being delegated to banks, landlords, and employers, the complicated system being proposed (involving websites, emails, passport numbers, passcodes, and security questions to prove one’s status) leaves everyone in an uncertain position. Legitimate migrants will struggle to prove their status and employers, service providers, and landlords will be reluctant to take part in, or to trust, such a convoluted procedure. A piece of physical proof that can be produced on demand would give everyone the certainty they need.”
London First is absolutely right. Why is the Minister, contrary to the assurance in the comprehensive improvement plan for the Home Office, not taking a blind bit of notice? This is purely about administrative convenience for the Home Office.
Support for Lords amendment 5 has been highlighted to me by the Roma Support Group, a long-established organisation doing excellent work in my constituency. The EU settlement scheme statistics show that Newham, the borough I represent, had a total of 91,000 applications submitted—the biggest number of any local authority—and within that, Romanians account for the biggest cohort, at about a third of the total.
The Roma Support Group pointed me to the European Commission’s digital economy and society index 2018 country report on Romania, which shows that by 2018 only 61% of Romanians were regular internet users—the EU average is 81%—and, looking at basic digital skills, the figure is 28% for Romanians compared with 57% for the EU average. The assessment of the Roma Support Group is that only 3% of its clients, and it has over 5,000 in my borough, are able to complete an online EU settlement scheme application independently, and it also estimates that only 20% of the families it deals with have an IT device, such as a tablet or laptop, available to them at home.
The Roma Support Group has told me about a Newham resident, Nicoleta, a single mother working in the hotel industry. She paid somebody to help her make the EU settlement scheme application in 2019. She did not know that free support was available. After she was granted status, the third party she had paid gave her a confirmation letter from the Home Office and told her that that paper would be the confirmation she needed. In July this year, she realised that the status she has is only digital and that she does not have the details needed to access her online account. She had to get somebody to call the Home Office and change the details on it.
Nicolaie works in the construction industry. In April this year, his work stopped due to the pandemic and he was told to make a universal credit application. He was asked to provide his EU settlement scheme details, for which he had applied with help from a local organisation, and he got into trouble as well because he could not access his digital status statement.
Of course, everybody can see the benefits of moving in the direction the Government want to, but the fact is there is a large number of people—thousands of people—who will not be able to make this work in the short term. I do say to the Minister that he should heed what he has signed up to in the comprehensive improvement plan, and accept Lords amendment 5.
Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Dales) (Con)
It is a privilege to follow the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms). I declare an interest as a barrister who has worked within the care system for many years.
I am delighted to be speaking in this debate at all, because it is further evidence of the fact that this House is making the necessary laws and arrangements for the United Kingdom to leave the European Union. The Government were elected on a mandate to deliver departure from the EU in clear terms, and reform of the present broken immigration system is very much part of that mandate. I receive many emails from my constituents in Derbyshire Dales who are pressing for such reform.
The primary purpose of this Bill is to end the free movement of persons in UK law, and to make EU citizens and their families subject to UK immigration controls. It is the Government’s clear intention that, at the end of the transition period, citizens of the EU and their families will require permission to enter and remain in the UK. For me, this is the logical result of our leaving the EU and becoming independent once more. I should mention that the Bill protects the immigration status of Irish citizens once free movement ends. This is only proper, and it is enshrined in a long-standing Ireland Act 1949 and subsequent legislation.
As is often the case, the Lords amendments seek to water down or negate the purpose of this important and good piece of legislation. I am of the view that if the amendments are passed, I would be letting down my electorate in Derbyshire Dales. I therefore oppose the amendments and wholeheartedly support the Government this evening. It is time for a clear and logical reform of the present broken immigration system.
I would like to turn to the impact of ending free movement on the social care sector. Lords amendment 1 requires the Secretary of State to publish an independent assessment of the impact of ending free movement on the social care sector within six months. This is wholly unnecessary. The Government already work with Skills for Care, which carries out independent reporting, and rely on the information of the independent Migration Advisory Committee, which will be providing annual reports on our new immigration system will be working. I am of the view that immigration is not the solution to the challenges the care sector faces. The solution to those problems rests at home. The Government are investing vast amounts of money, including £1.5 billion more funding in adult and children’s social care, and have launched a national recruitment scheme in this sector, which I support. The covid-19 pandemic has shown us how important this sector is and how important it is to treasure, train and retain social care workers in this country.
Miss Dines
No, I will not give way. Our focus needs to be investing in this country for more young people and older people to be retrained to work in this sector and to be valued with proper wages. We have a fantastic resource at home. In Derbyshire Dales, I have spoken to several care workers. They all work incredibly hard and we treasure them. For those reasons, I oppose Lords amendment 1.
Lords amendment 2 would amend clause 4 of the Bill. I cannot go into as much detail as I would like because of time constraints, but the change suggested would provide preferential family reunion rights under EU free movement law indefinitely. The people of this country did not vote to leave the EU to go on to grant such indefinite rights. It would provide an unfair situation for all other UK nationals who wish to live in the UK with family from outside the EU. The suggested creation of a lifetime right for one group of nationals over another—UK nationals living overseas who have families from other parts of the world—would be grossly unfair to our citizens. We are not leaving the EU and taking the EU’s broken immigration rules with us. European Union free movement simply needs to end.
Lords amendment 3 relates to children in care. The proposal is over emotive and simply not necessary. The Government are providing extensive support to local authorities, which have a legal responsibility already for applying on behalf of eligible children in care to get UK immigration status under the settlement scheme. In my practice at the Bar representing guardians, children, parents and local authorities, I witnessed such circumstances frequently. Furthermore, the Government have made it clear that they will accept late applications. The amendment is just political and wholly unnecessary.
I am not going to be able to spend much time talking about Dublin III, but it is worth remembering that this country is now a sovereign country and we can make our own laws. We have a strong record of supporting vulnerable children, refugees and asylum seekers, and we will do that. We have an admirable record internationally, and I do not accept the naysaying and doom that we hear from the Opposition. The fact is that we have an electoral mandate to fix the problems that exist in our broken electoral system, and I very much look forward to the great ideas of the Government for new legislation in that area next year. We will continue to provide a safe haven to those fleeing persecution and oppression and tyranny, but we will not allow organised criminals to continue to exploit people, and we will have to stop what is happening in bringing people who are exploited across the channel.
Briefly on Lords amendment 5, I say that we do not need to rely solely on written documents. Physical documents can get lost, stolen and are often tampered with. The online scheme is safer and more reliable. I therefore oppose the amendment. As I am running out of time, I cannot go into detail, save to say that a time limit is necessary to be able to control immigration, and any suggestion otherwise is fanciful. I have no hesitation in supporting the Government in opposing the amendments today.
Yvette Cooper
Can I say to the Government that I am disappointed that they are resisting all of the amendments from the Lords? Clearly, immigration legislation is needed, and new immigration rules are needed in time for January when the transition ends, but the purpose of Lords amendments is to try to improve those rules and the legislation.
I would say to the hon. Member for Derbyshire Dales (Miss Dines) that that is what this debate is all about—for the UK to decide what principles it wants to embed in the immigration system for the future, and many of the Lords amendments are about establishing principles around compassion and drawing on the history the UK has long had of supporting refugees and also supporting the vulnerable.
It is disappointing that the Government are not responding to the mild request to have a social care impact assessment. It is only a limited request, but it is the right response to the Migration Advisory Committee’s recommendation that something needs to be done. It recommended a pay increase, which I would strongly like to see. In the absence of that, it said that social care should be added to the shortage occupation list to make sure that that vital service is not overstretched as we go through another difficult winter. The Government have provided no response to that at all.
Mr Carmichael
It is a pleasure to follow the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper). Like others, I would like to thank all those in the other place for their time and their attention to the Bill. The amendments that they have sent to us are undoubtedly significant improvements and, like the right hon. Lady, I regret that all we have had from the Government is a de plano refusal of them. There are not even any amendments in lieu, which would have shown a level of engagement.
This is particularly true in relation to Lords amendment 1, an eminently modest proposal that has elicited the quite remarkable assertion that, somehow or another, the purpose of immigration is to keep wages and salaries low in the British care sector. I have to say that I struggle with that somewhat. I just do not buy the idea that, if we were to increase the level of pay in the care sector, we would see a flood of local labour going back into it. Notwithstanding that, it is quite remarkable to think that the Government would not want to have an impact assessment for an area of public policy with whose financing we have struggled for almost as long as I have been in this House. Indeed, I cannot remember a time, in any part of the United Kingdom, when we did not struggle with its finances.
I want to touch briefly on Lords amendment 5, which was promoted in the other place by my noble Friend Lord Oates. Various points on this were made exceptionally well by the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms). The promise made by the Government at the election last year was that there would be some sort of evidence-based settlement scheme, but now we are told that it will be enough just to rely on a digital provision. I strongly suspect that, inside the National Audit Office, there are alarm bells and lights that flash every time a Minister stands at the Dispatch Box and says that there will be a digital solution to a problem. In my experience, any digital solution generally creates a new problem, especially for those who are older and those who are digitally excluded, for whom this is going to create a further and unnecessary level of exclusion.
I want to focus the bulk of my remarks this evening on Lords amendments 6 to 8 and 10, which were promoted in the other place by my noble Friend Baroness Hamwee. Subject to your agreement, Madam Deputy Speaker, I hope that we might test the opinion of the House in relation to these amendments later this evening. It is worthy of note that the United Kingdom is the only country in Europe that locks people up indefinitely for immigration purposes. Detaining people for months on end without giving them any idea of how long they will be there is clearly inhumane, but it is also expensive and unnecessary.
I have long since given up trying to plead with Home Office Ministers on the basis of humanity and compassion, but I would have hoped that a case based on economy and efficiency would find some favour. However, even that seems not to be the case. When I made an intervention on the Minister, he deftly ignored my point that £7 million was paid out last year and that there were 272 cases of wrongful detention. That is the scale of the crisis in this area. It really worries me that there is so little concern about the fact that no fewer than 272 people were detained wrongfully. That is wrong, it is inefficient and it is expensive. Surely for those reasons at least, the Government should be looking to find a better and more humane basis for doing this.
Stephen Timms
I very much agree with the right hon. Gentleman. He says that he has given up asking the Home Office for compassion, but I wonder whether he has seen, in the comprehensive improvement plan, that theme 2 involves a more compassionate approach.
Mr Carmichael
That is indeed the case. However, the rhetoric and the reality do not always provide a perfect match in this regard. But in fairness, and at the risk of playing with semantics, it would not be that difficult to achieve a more compassionate system because we are currently starting from an exceptionally low base. At the end of June this year, even in the midst of the pandemic, there were 40 people who had been in detention for over a year and four people who had been in detention for more than two years. This has particular importance when one considers the other areas that we have discussed, such as the right to family reunion for child refugees. To pick up the point from the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) in relation to amendment 9, I endorse his views on human trafficking. The problem in all these cases is that we do not get upstream because we do not get the necessary co-operation from the victims themselves. If the focus in our system was on catching those who are responsible for the trafficking, and not those who are the victims of it, we would be in a much stronger position. The issue of unlimited detention goes right to the heart of that. It is about which end of the telescope we see the problem through.
The amendments that are before the House this evening are all significant improvements. I hope that the Government, on reflection, will find a way to engage with this in a more constructive and compassionate way.
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
It is difficult, in six minutes, to do justice to such an important piece of legislation, with such a diverse set of amendments. I want to speak primarily to Lords amendment 3—the old new clause 2 that I proposed on Report—and Lords amendment 4, which is the old new clause 29 on the Dublin replacement. However, I also support Lords amendment 6, previously proposed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), and Lords amendment 9, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) spoke so eloquently about.
On Lords amendment 3, we had previous arguments about lots of children in care going under the radar. There are now just eight months to go until the end of the EU settlement scheme. The Home Office originally told us that it estimated that there were some 9,000 EU children in care and care leavers in this country, but now, after a survey completed by 90% of local authorities, it suggests that the figure is under 4,000. Why the drop? At a similar time, it estimated that the number of EU adults who would register to qualify for the EU settlement scheme would be 3 million, but it has turned out to be over 4 million. Why does the number for children in care go down and yet the number for adults has gone up?
These children are of course already in this country. Not a single additional child will be brought into this country under this legislation. It is about regularising status and giving those children safety and giving confirmation to children already in this country. That is why the amendment is still very important. We risk another Windrush scandal for a particularly vulnerable set of children growing up in care who inevitably have more chaotic lifestyles than most people.
Recent research by the charity Coram, “Children left out?”, highlighted the mixed practice among local authorities in identifying and supporting children in care through the EU settlement scheme, with fears that some authorities are making no attempt to identify children in their care who need to regularise their status. Of course, there is no incentive for authorities to regularise that status through citizenship when it costs £1,012, for every child, to do that.
David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) (Con)
My hon. Friend is drawing attention to a very important issue. Does he agree that the crucial point is that a local authority may have the statutory duty as the corporate parent, but if the child does not have documentary evidence proving their nationality—not their residence, which the local authority can prove easily, but their nationality—the local authority is unable to take forward the application at all? I hope the Minister will be able to address that issue when he responds to the debate.
Tim Loughton
That is absolutely right. It is very difficult to replace documents, and many people come here without any documents. We are relying on the timescales of high commissions and embassies in various EU countries, and it is not exactly a priority of social workers, who are snowed under with all the other safeguarding work they have to do.
This is a really important amendment. Interestingly, there was a judgment by the Local Government and Social Care Ombudsman against Liverpool Council. A care leaver complained that the council had failed to regularise his immigration status and failed to secure him British citizenship and a passport, which meant he could not travel or work. That complaint was upheld. The Government did not vote against the amendment in the Lords, so what has changed between then and tonight? This is a great opportunity for the Government to show why such a provision is necessary, without adding a single additional person to the immigration figures, if that is what they are actually worried about.
Karen Bradley
It is often said that these are older children aged 14, 15 or 16. I have a 14-year-old, and if my 14-year-old did not have me, I would want to know that they could go to one of my family, be that my brothers or my in-laws. Does my hon. Friend agree?
Tim Loughton
My right hon. Friend is right. I have met many of these children in camps in Calais, in Zaatari in Jordan and in some of the less well-run camps in Greece. These are real children, bereft of parents in many cases, with just a link in the UK. Without this amendment—without a replacement for Dublin III—those children have no obvious safe and legal route to get to the UK.
The Minister rightly says that we have been very generous in this country through various other schemes, and I agree. Some 7,400 family reunion visas were issued in the year to March, and there is also the vulnerable persons resettlement scheme and the hugely successful Dubs scheme, under which 480 children have come here. Like everybody, I pay tribute to Saint Alf Dubs for the fantastic work he does for this cause. It was a privilege to go to the United Nations and the Zaatari camp in Jordan with him. Of course, the Dubs scheme is full, and none of those other schemes is currently operating. From 1 January, there will be no effective mandatory family reunion scheme either, and there will be no safe and legal route for these children to come to the UK.
I am tough on the illegal migrant channel crossings. I think many of those people who can afford to pay people smugglers are effectively jumping the queue ahead of those who are in refugee camps, who are going through due process and who are abiding by the rules. If we are going to be tough—and, gosh, we need to be tougher on those routes, which line the pockets of people smugglers—we need to make sure we have alternative safe and legal routes for those genuine vulnerable refugees, particularly children, to whom we have a duty of care and can offer a safe haven in this country.
Of course, this has come at the worst time, as we heard from the Labour Front Bencher, after the fires in Lesbos at the beginning of September, in camps that were already five times over capacity, with over 13,000 people residing in a centre built for 2,757. There are now more than 1,600 unaccompanied children on the Greek islands, many whose basic needs are not being met, and many of these children have chronic illnesses. As of last week, there were more than 300 covid cases on Lesbos alone, with a hospital that has capacity for just 50 people. These are deeply vulnerable children, dangerously exposed to people traffickers and other exploitation.
Some 7% of these children are under the age of 14, yet we have no scheme to deal with them, despite having taken many reunification cases earlier in the year for such children. France has taken 350, Portugal 500, and Belgium, Croatia, Finland, Germany, Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania and Slovenia are taking these children. What are we doing about it, Minister? The Government have said we do not have places for them, but more than 30 local authorities have identified 1,400 places if the Government will make the scheme work and will pay the cost of it.
We need a Dubs 2, and we need a family reunion scheme, regardless of Brexit. We need it. We have a great tradition of saving these children; if we do not have it in this Bill, come 1 January, we will have no safe and legal route for very, very vulnerable children.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
Order. After the next speaker the time limit will be reduced to four minutes. I give that warning in advance so that Members can prepare if necessary.
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), who made a powerful contribution not only on amendments 3 and 6 but right the way through his comments. It is a testament to the House that almost every contribution thus far has been on the right track and has exuded the compassion that we want to show as a country, and none more so than that of the right hon. Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley); I was greatly enthralled by what she had to say and agree with the sentiments she expressed.
On amendment 5, the Government have engaged financial privilege. They are asking this House to disagree on the grounds of the financial implications of the proof of status document and for no other reason: engaging financial privilege means that is the rationale for asking us to disagree to amendment 5. I ask the Minister to reflect on that in his comments. If the only issue is finance—if he recognises that a biometric residence permit, for example, is available for less than £20—I hope that, should there be a subsequent attempt in the other place to insert a similar amendment without proposed subsection (2), the Government will agree to it, because the argument is not only about digitalisation and the difficulties associated with online information, but about people’s sincere desire to hold a permit outlining their status. The Government should engage with this issue thoughtfully.
I have spoken on a number of occasions in this House on indefinite detention, and the Minister knows that I have quite a rigid position on the issue. I supported more keenly amendments that were previously before this House that at least gave the opportunity for an extension of an additional 28 days. I thought that gave Government more latitude in exceptional circumstances, but I still believe that indefinite detention is immoral and unjustified. I have not heard a justifiable rationale for it yet; it is unjustifiable.
We hear about the difficult and hard stories and we hear about the excessive cases. If someone breaks the law in this country, then we should arrest them and put them through due process. If somebody is going through an immigration application process, we should not put them in custody without any sense of how long the process will take. We should treat them as we would wish to be treated: humanly and humanely.
I will use the remainder of my speech to touch on amendment 9. I am pleased to speak in support of this amendment, which was supported in the other place through a powerful speech made by my colleague Lord Morrow, who as a private Member in the Northern Ireland Assembly brought through our seminal Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Criminal Justice and Support for Victims) Act (Northern Ireland) 2015. To those who talk about the United Kingdom Government bringing forward modern slavery legislation that is the best in the world, I say that it started in Northern Ireland. We are proud of that record. We are the first devolved Administration to bring forward such legislation, and we are proud of what was achieved.
I listened carefully to the opening remarks made by the Minister. I am grateful to him for a telephone conversation we had earlier today, and for the subsequent correspondence that he has shared. I think he knows from the tenor of contributions made by the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) and others that there is still work to be done on amendment 9, and on changing the terms of the guidance available. I recognise the development that he has brought forward this afternoon, but I am still not sure from what we have heard that we should be convinced that that is a good enough reason for this House to agree with the Government and disagree with the Lords amendment.
The challenge is that any trafficked person from an EEA territory who arrives in the UK after 31 December will only have one long-term route to recovering discretionary leave to remain, whereas today, they have two. While the commitment to automatic consideration is progress, it does not change the fact that the then Government Minister spoke to the Select Committee on Work and Pensions in 2017 as part of that Committee’s inquiry on victims of modern slavery, and said that there must be
“exceptional or compelling reasons to justify a grant”
of discretionary leave to remain. One has to go through freedom of information requests—it should not be so difficult to get this information from the Home Office—to establish that 8% to 9% of applications from those certified as victims of modern slavery get discretionary leave to remain. That is far too low, and it is something that the Government need to consider. I fail to see why confirmed victims losing their right to recovery through treaty rights will be particularly reassured by the commitment that they will automatically be considered for something that, unlike recourse to public funds through their treaty rights, is only given in an exceptional situation.
The other difficulty with the idea that the introduction of automatic assessment for discretionary leave to remain is an effective replacement for recourse to public funds through treaty rights is that discretionary leave to remain is discretionary. It is not a right, but clause 12 makes it a right; Lords amendment 9 makes it a right. If a confirmed victim of modern slavery who is an EEA national meets the criteria in subsection (2), their access to leave to remain will no longer be discretionary, and that is what we should strive to achieve.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
Order. The time limit is now reduced to four minutes.
Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con)
It is a pleasure to speak in this debate, and to follow the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), who speaks with such compassion. As a child, I remember being told, “Virginia, life just isn’t fair”, but why can life not be fair? I believe in fairly rewarding people for the hard work they do. I believe in using our hard-earned taxpayers’ money fairly and responsibly to honour the effort that has been put into generating it, and I believe we must fairly give our gratitude to those who help others, such as Roy Fyles and the many hidden heroes who do so much for others in my constituency.
While we have been a member of the EU and have been abiding by the principle of free movement of people, we have been unable to make our immigration system fair, but that is now changing. As we near the end of the transition period, we are greeted with many new opportunities: from 1 January, we will give priority to those with the highest skills and the greatest talent—scientists, engineers, academics and other highly skilled workers—so that we are better equipped to deal with the challenges of the 21st century, whether those be the need for increased numbers of science, technology, engineering and mathematics professionals, or of doctors.
As the Member of Parliament for Ynys Môn, I receive many letters and emails from my constituents who simply cannot get an appointment with a doctor in Holyhead. These services are vital for their health and wellbeing. One of my constituents, Mr Barry Smith, wrote in desperation: “There are two GP surgeries in Holyhead, Longford and Cambria, who for some time have not had consistent or regular doctors. Is there anything you can do to bring forward a solution to the dire shortage of GPs in Holyhead?”
What is the solution? Keith Amos, head of service for managed practices, and his team at Betsi Cadwaladr have been working hard to ensure that my constituents can access the healthcare support that they need on the island, whether that is e-consultation, paramedics or occupational therapy, but there is an ongoing struggle to recruit GPs. Today, he told me: “In north Wales we are desperately short of GPs. The key is that we recruit doctors with the right qualifications.” However, a long-term solution is in sight. I am pleased to say that Bangor University’s new four-year graduate entry medical degree with Cardiff University is unique, and the pro vice-chancellor for learning and teaching said that she is delighted to be working with Cardiff on that step change. But what about the here and now? How can I help my Ynys Môn constituents get access to a GP?
Let me conclude by saying that we have one of the best healthcare systems in the world, and I pay tribute to everyone in it. The Bill will give us flexibility to recruit medical professionals from abroad and in specific areas.
Nadia Whittome
It is a privilege to follow the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Virginia Crosbie), who speaks with expertise and passion about healthcare in her constituency. It is a privilege, too, to speak to Lords amendment 1, which would require an independent assessment of the impact of ending free movement on the social care sector.
It was not so long ago that everyone in this House hailed our key workers as heroes and we stood on our doorsteps and clapped for our carers. It is care workers, cleaners, cooks and delivery drivers who keep this country running, but they are also the people this Bill would keep out of the country. One in five health and social care workers was born outside the UK. When I was a care worker, I worked alongside talented and dedicated carers from Zambia, Spain, Italy; we worked long hours to look after elderly people, yet the Government have the cheek to call them low skilled and to say that they do not belong here.
When I went back to work during the pandemic, I had to retrain. My day would look like this: getting up at five; making notes during handover; administering medication; dealing with someone who had had a fall; hoisting someone twice my size, and being alert at all times to small changes that might indicate a serious medical problem. I would try my best to brighten someone’s day and make them feel valued, knowing that I would probably be the only person they saw that day, all while meticulously recording everything that happened on every call.
Our key workers are not low skilled; they are underpaid. They should be rewarded with a pay rise, not threatened with deportation. The purpose of the Bill is to close our borders with Europe. Those who make over £25,600 a year will be allowed in, and those who are paid less will be kept out. That is what a points-based system looks like. It is free movement for those who can afford it and a hostile environment for everyone else.
This Bill will not solve the problems my community faces. It is not foreigners taking away jobs; it is this Government refusing to extend the furlough scheme. It is not migrants running the NHS into the ground; they are keeping it going. If the Minister is so committed to increasing wages, I urge him to listen to the Migration Advisory Committee and increase the wages of care workers to at least £10 an hour. Whether you are a retired miner from Mansfield, a Deliveroo rider in Nottingham or a Bulgarian mum who cleans this very building, we have more in common with one another than we ever will with those who try to divide us. We all want to protect our families. We all want to contribute to our communities. We all know what it is like to have no power, and we all know that it is Ministers who are making people powerless.
We have an enormous privilege as Members of this House, but being paid £80k a year does not make our lives worth any more than those of people being paid £8.72 an hour. We have a responsibility to vote for these amendments and to treat people—our neighbours, our friends, our co-workers—who were born on a different soil in the way that we would want to be treated ourselves and the way that we would want our families to be treated.
Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Nadia Whittome), who spoke so eloquently about the impact of Lords amendment 1 and the importance of wages for people who do some of the most important work in our country.
I will speak to Lords amendment 6, which would place a time limit on immigration detention and was moved so well by the noble Baroness Hamwee in the other place. Immigration detention is the ghastliest aspect of the failed immigration system we inherited from the last Labour Government. However, we can no longer apportion the blame to them, because it was so very long ago.
This amendment provides an opportunity for the Government to start to modify the worst aspect of immigration detention, which is that we never tell people when they will come out. That is the most atrocious thing to do to anyone. Those of us who have been through the national lockdown or quarantine know how psychologically debilitating it can be. Imagine being in that position and never knowing when you will come out.
This is an opportunity to make change. This is an amendment that the Government could have adopted. It is an amendment that screams, “We can do better. Please accept this.” The Minister said in his opening remarks that 28 days was a very short limit. Of course, the Government had the opportunity to put in their own limit, if they had wished to. They did not do that. It is another indication of the lost opportunity we see with this amendment today.
Unfortunately I do not compliment the Minister on this too often, but I was very pleased that he did not use the usual Home Office trope that putting a time limit on immigration detention would let out the rapists, the murderers and all the other people they like to scare others about. As he well knows, that argument does not hold water. There were 24,500 or so people in detention in 2019, of whom 26% were detained for more than 28 days. That is 6,373 people—a vast number—who were detained for over 28 days. That has nothing to do with failures in the criminal justice system in processing people’s immigration claims while they are in prison.
As the Minister indicated in his speech and as others have said, we are looking towards a new system that promises to speed up application processes and make our asylum system more effective. I say gently to him that the Government cannot speed up a broken immigration system without causing more harm. It is better first to recognise the failures in the system we have before seeking to speed the process up, thinking that that will somehow provide a solution.
It is for that reason that I am so disappointed the Government have not taken this opportunity to put in a time limit or to say, “We understand the psychological problems that come when we detain someone without telling them they can leave.” As the Government come forward with the new system, I want them to say, “When someone comes here to claim asylum, we will provide them with access to the best psychological resources, so that we can understand what underpins why they have sought asylum.” I want people to have the best access to legal aid and legal rights so that their claim can be made with the greatest precision and so that honourable claims for asylum have the best chance of being heard and recognised.
Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
Like other hon. Members, I rise to speak to Lords amendments 4 and 5. Lords amendment 5 would ensure that EU citizens received physical proof of settled status if they request it.
The Government have responded to calls for physical proof by saying that digital status
“cannot be lost, stolen, damaged or tampered with.”
What a great argument. Why don’t we move to digital passports next? For EU citizens living in the UK, their settled status certification could soon have similar importance to a passport. Also, the Government’s response is simply not true. Digital data is regularly lost and stolen. It is also not true that digital data cannot be damaged or tampered with. The3million has heard of just that from an EU citizen—the photograph of her digital status has been swapped with another, without her knowledge or consent.
Some 22% of people do not have the essential digital skills for day-to-day life in the UK. Those who struggle with digital skills will not be able to access their status when they need it without further help. It will mean widespread discrimination in a number of areas from finding employment or a place to live to opening a bank account. A survey from the Residential Landlords Association found that 20% of landlords are less likely to consider renting to EU or EEA nationals simply because it is becoming very complicated. Is it any wonder that the lack of physical documentation is causing real anxiety? Digital simply does not work. Lack of physical documentation will have very real consequences for EU citizens living in the UK. Amendment 5 simply ensures that EU citizens have the same quality of life, housing and employment. The callous disregard of this Government for people and their rights because we have left the EU has been sickening, and I simply do not believe that that is what the British people voted for.
I urge Members to protect children and families by supporting amendment 4. I simply cannot understand the cruelty that has driven this Government to decide not to guarantee family reunion. What has become of this once tolerant nation whose rules were based on a humane response to tragedy and hardship? All too often, it is now children who lose their lives in the dangerous attempts to be reunited with a family member. Those children are already traumatised by conflict, loss of family members, destitution and fear for their lives. Families must be together, and the UK should guarantee that. Removing safe and legal routes to the UK is cruel and counterproductive. Again, this is such a shame given that we once had a humane and compassionate response to people in hardship. It simply increases the risk of dangerous journeys and exploitation by criminal gangs and we have already heard much about that this evening.
Research from the UN High Commissioner for Refugees shows that children are especially likely to resort to people smuggling when access to family reunion is delayed or at risk. What is more, our communities are ready to support unaccompanied children, to give them a home and a chance to rebuild their lives. Councils have pledged 1,400 places for unaccompanied child refugees in Europe if only the Government would provide them with a legal route. It is inexplicable that this Government are not prepared to support the efforts of councils and local people whose hearts are simply in the right place. We have a choice about the sort of country that we want to be: do we callously turn our backs on those most in need, or do we uphold the values of compassion and humanity? I have not given up on urging the Government to listen to compassion and humanity. I urge the Government and Members across the House to please do the right thing.
Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con)
I welcome this Bill, which ends free movement, takes back control of our borders, delivers on people’s priorities and paves the way for a modern, fairer, points-based immigration system that will welcome skilled workers from across the world to contribute to the United Kingdom’s economy, communities and public services.
I want to consider the amendment that proposes that children of EEA and Swiss nationals who are in care or entitled to care leavers’ support are granted automatic indefinite leave to remain under the EU settlement scheme. The Government have legislated through the EU withdrawal agreement Act to protect the residence rights of EEA and Swiss citizens and their family members who are in the UK by the end of the transition period. In addition, the Government fully opened the EU settlement scheme to such citizens and their family members in March last year.
The concern is that if eligible children are not identified and supported into the scheme, they will be at risk of being left here unlawfully through no fault of their own. This amendment would give EEA and Swiss children who are currently in the UK a default safety net to qualify under the EU settlement scheme if it were later found out that the necessary paperwork had not been lodged at the appropriate time by either a social worker or a local authority. No matter the circumstances in which these children find themselves here, they are innocent and, on the face of it, this amendment would be a sensible and humane measure to take. We cannot have another Windrush-type situation where children who have been legally in the UK for most of their lives apply later for a job or for accommodation as adults, only to find that there is no trace of them through no fault of their own.
It is of concern that looked-after children and care leavers who currently call the UK home are at risk of being left undocumented if they do not receive settled status through the EU settlement scheme. The Government have acknowledged that just 40% of identified looked-after children and care leavers have had applications made on their behalf some 18 months since the launch of the EU settlement scheme, which is extremely worrying. However, the Government have confirmed that they have focused on working closely with local authorities to ensure that vulnerable groups get UK immigration status under the scheme. I urge them to continue to support local authorities in those endeavours.
Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab)
I am honoured to speak in this important debate in support of the Lords amendments, particularly Lords amendments 4 and 5, which are reasonable amendments that were supported by great majorities in the Lords. Amendment 5 provides an option of providing physical proof of immigration status under the EU settlement scheme to prevent disenfranchisement of EU citizens.
In Wandsworth, there are 41,000 EU nationals, which is 13% of my constituents, so this is a big issue for my constituents in Putney. Two of those constituents, who have lived in the UK for 30 years, are French citizens and classical musicians with settled status in this country. They have written to me and said: “We are very concerned by the fact that we have no physical way of proving our status when we come back from holidays or trips abroad, and we are afraid that at any moment a similar situation to the Windrush population might happen to Europeans who’ve settled in this country.”
Moreover, Citizens Advice Wandsworth workers who support EU citizens are concerned about that aspect of the Bill. Access to proof of settled status requires digital skills, access to the internet and a suitable device. Time and again, they have seen that vulnerable people find it difficult or impossible to view or prove their status. That means that they are unable to prove their rights in the UK when they are seeking job opportunities, finding a place to live or even getting treatment in hospital. They find that they are discriminated against in those circumstances because they cannot have the physical documentation that they need to prove their status. That cannot be right.
Lords amendment 4 allows unaccompanied children and vulnerable adults to claim asylum in the care and context of their family, which will prevent dangerous journeys from being taken to join them. I have been to the camps in Calais—they were not really camps; they were a lot of bushes in an area near Calais—and I have seen the traffickers circling the area. I know that if any of my children were in that camp and their siblings were just across the channel waiting and able to protect them, I would do everything I could to reunite my family members. To narrow it down to just parents is not fair when many have lost their parents—that is why they fled their country and why we can rescue those children and show compassion.
On 20 December last year, the Prime Minister stood at the Dispatch Box and stated that the Government were “absolutely committed” to continuing family reunion. A Home Office statement on 15 January used exactly the same language, saying it was
“absolutely committed to the family reunion of refugee families”.
There has been commitment after commitment to family reunion, yet it is not in a good enough state in the Bill. That will leave children such as Lili, who fled Eritrea and was found by Safe Passage on the streets of Rome, in a highly vulnerable situation, instead of being reunited with her brother as she was. She wants to be a computer engineer. That is compassion—to allow those children to be here.
To conclude, unless we act tonight, 2021 will be the year in which child refugees in Europe lose the only safe legal route to sanctuary in the UK. Voting against this amendment would be quite wrong. I urge Members on both sides of the House—we have heard good arguments from Members on both sides for this—to think of children such as Lili, do the right thing and vote for Lords amendment 4. It is time to show our British values of compassion and justice, and to deliver for refugee children.
Gary Sambrook (Birmingham, Northfield) (Con)
I have been pleased to support this Bill throughout its passage, particularly for its two primary aims of ending free movement of labour and introducing a points-based system. I wish to focus mostly on Lords amendment 1 and social care. As has been discussed, the amendment would require the Government to publish a report on the impact of ending free movement of labour on the social care sector. I spoke on Second Reading and served on the Bill Committee, and at every stage of my involvement in this Bill I have heard Opposition Member after Opposition Member try to claim that in some way the only way to fix labour shortages in the UK is by immigration. I simply do not agree with that analysis. In the Committee stage, we heard from Brian Bell, the MAC’s interim chair, that only 5% of social care workers come from EU migration. In constituencies such as mine, unemployment is standing at 10.5%. Are the Opposition genuinely trying to say that these jobs in the social care sector are not ones that more than 6,000 people in my constituency can have and that they are out of reach for my constituents? I do not agree.
Immigration plays a very important role in managing labour markets, but it does not solve all the problems all the time. The Government are tackling this issue of social care head on; we have seen the investment of £1.5 billion in adult and children’s social care, along with a national recruitment campaign for the sector. I absolutely support those two things. The Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), made a fair point about the MAC suggestion about pay. Every Conservative Member stood on a manifesto that pledged to look at social care and, importantly, at a way of redesigning it so that it is fairer for those who are cared for, their families and carers too. That is very important, and it is incumbent on all of us that we come to some kind of consensus across this House on that system. In the same way as we see a consensus on the NHS, we need to come to one on social care.
On the NHS, there will be times, including now, when there are gaps in the labour market, which is why I am pleased that the Bill contains provision for the health and care visa, which will be available for people to use to come to this country to work in the NHS. That is very important.
I conclude by saying that I am happy to support this Bill and will be voting to reject the Lords amendments, because I will be fulfilling my promise to my constituents to end free movement of labour, to introduce a points-based system and to deliver on a firm but fairer immigration system for this country.
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
This is a thoroughly depressing Bill, one that is entirely political and deeply impractical. That is the kind of Bill, or Act, as it will become, that does not stand the test of time. That we are celebrating the loss of the freedom of British people and thinking it is a good thing would be comical if it were not so tragic, confident though I am that this will not last.
Let us look at some of the details. The Lords amendments are entirely practical and reasonable. Indeed the Minister himself has accepted that, in principle at least, some of them fit that description. I want to focus on Lords amendments 4 and 5. Lords amendment 4 would of course provide the opportunity for family reunion—a safe and legal route. The Home Secretary herself, at the Conservative party conference just a few weeks ago, talked about the importance of safe and legal routes, but of course we are sleepwalking out of one of the safe and legal routes we currently have, the Dublin settlement, with no sign of any kind of meaningful replacement to take its place. If we are—and I am sure all of us here are—outraged and filled with compassion and horror at what we have seen in recent times as people have made the death-defying journey across the channel in rickety boats, taking desperate risks because they are desperate people, the answer is most certainly to provide safe and legal routes. Lords amendment 4 gives the Government the opportunity to have a safe and legal route, and to reject it is music to the ears of the human traffickers. I do not yet understand why the Government seek to turn down such a route via either compassion or practical application.
On amendment 5, it seems an absolute no-brainer that EU citizens with settled status granted to them by this Government should have physical proof of that status. I have had a number of my constituents in touch with me recently who are deeply concerned about the lack of physical documentation. I talked to a person working for a local school and people working in hospitality in Windermere and in Kendal who are concerned about the lengthy multi-step process involving passport, date of birth and a unique one-off code sent to their phone, their employer’s email addresses, business details and both accessing the Government’s website separately. Members have already spoken of the occasional tendency for Government IT schemes not to work completely perfectly. Like other issues that we are talking about tonight, this has huge resonance with the appalling Windrush scandal. While there may be some debate as to which Government bears responsibility for the heartbreak of the Windrush scandal, there will be absolutely no doubt whatever who is to blame for this one. They saw it coming and they voted for it.
Comments were made earlier about the minimum income salary threshold. The Lake district hospitality industry is possibly the most hard-hit part of the UK economy as a result of the coronavirus. May I point out also that 20,000 people working in that industry are from outside the UK, and if we say to 90% of them, “You are not welcome here unless you’re earning a figure that your employers cannot afford to pay”, that would deal an appalling hand to, and damage massively, an industry that is struggling to cope with the covid crisis? It is time for politics that is more practical and less political.
Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)
It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), and although we will not agree on much, I am sure we both agree that immigration has often brought many delights to this country. In fact, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows, my grandparents on my mother’s side—Paul Kreciglowa and his wife Lilly —were refugees in the second world war. My grandfather was in a gulag in Siberia and managed to get out by fighting against Nazi Germany. My mother was born in a displaced persons camp, and they settled here. It has brought many delights to my family, so it is a cause that is very close to my heart. Nevertheless, we have to have a sensible immigration policy that we have control over and in which we actually have the right to say who we want and who we do not want in this country. I fear that the Lords amendments would undermine our ability to take back control of our lives.
Many people in Rother Valley voted to leave the European Union because they wanted control over their lives, and they wanted control of many issues, including immigration. This Bill, unamended, does take control back of our immigration system. Unfortunately, if we were to accept these Lords amendments we would undermine what I think is a key aspect of this Bill, and that is fairness. To me, fairness is one of the most important things in life, and fairness is one of the most important things to residents of Rother Valley. These amendments undermine fairness and I will highlight that in the short time I have available.
Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Streatham) (Lab)
Much has happened since the last time we debated the Bill in this House. We saw the worst of the pandemic, and we saw the ill-conceived words spoken in this House about who was low-skilled completely disproven, as those same people were our key workers who continue to see us through these tumultuous times. It was refreshing to see some of the regular scare stories about migrants displaced by splashes about migrant key workers. This Bill and the Government’s points-based system, which is not legislated for in the Bill, does not recognise that.
The Institute for Public Policy Research shows that the income threshold would mean that 69% of EU nationals currently here would not even be eligible to enter the country under these new rules. The trade union, Unison, has explained that there will be 122,000 shortages in social care, with projections from think tanks explaining that that could be up to 250,000 by 2030. This does not even help our workforce, our skills shortage or our economy, so what logical reason could there be not to have an impact assessment, as suggested in Lords amendment 1, unless it is a purely ideological one?
I will take some time to debunk some myths about refugees. Refugees are not obligated to claim asylum in the first safe country that they land in, and we are not overrun with refugees. In fact, we are below the European average for asylum applications, with countries such as Germany, France, Spain and Greece all seeing between two and four times as many as the UK, and 85% of all refugees live in developing countries. Our country has a proud tradition of accepting refugees, most notably the Kindertransport children, such as Lord Dubs, and I fully support Lords amendment 4 to continue arrangements to maintain unaccompanied child refugees and family reunion.
As the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) rightly said, without this amendment, there will be no safe and legal routes for vulnerable people. The idea that we would just turn away the most vulnerable is a disgrace, but so is a lot of this Government’s legislation of late. As the great Tony Benn once said,
“The way a government treats refugees is very instructive because it shows you how they would treat the rest of us if they thought they could get away with it.”
The Government have to understand why, following the ongoing Windrush scandal, EU nationals will not be content without physical proof of their status, for which Lords amendment 5 rightfully makes provision. I have said it before, and I will say it again: this is the second time in a decade that a Conservative Government have retrospectively changed the rights of migrants after they have settled in this country. Why should any migrant feel secure?
On the 28-day limit to immigration detention, the Minister has said again and again that there is no indefinite detention, so I would like to know, what is the current limit? I am heartened by the cross-party support that Lords amendment 6 has received and by the release of a number of immigration detainees during the pandemic, but recent outbreaks in Dungavel and Brook House have caused a lot of concern. We have already heard about how much is paid out in claims of false detention. Nearly 70% of those in immigration detention are eventually released and allowed to remain in the UK. Private companies such as Serco and G4S are paid by the Government to hold them. It has to end.
I am proud that the Labour party has consistently and unequivocally stood up to this reactionary Bill since its inception and all its iterations. Our hon. Friends in the other place have done a sterling job in amending some of the most reactionary parts of the Bill, and I support every single one of their amendments. They have tabled these amendments with consideration and compassion to a piece of legislation that so fundamentally impacts the lives of others. It is a disgrace that the Government intend to vote these amendments down, and I wholeheartedly believe that they will sincerely regret this decision.
Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow my namesake, the hon. Member for Streatham (Bell Ribeiro-Addy). This Bill is about ending free movement. It is not the place for broader changes to immigration policy in the areas of detention, asylum and care. As ever, the amendments made in the other place are a mixture of the well-meaning but unnecessary and those that seek to undercut this Government’s manifesto commitments. I urge noble Members to reflect on the fact that we have won a majority for these measures. Those of us on the leave side also won the referendum, and continually trying to frustrate what we have repeatedly put to the British people is not a good way for the other place to proceed.
In the brief time I have, I would like to speak about Lords amendments 1 and 2. As the Migration Advisory Committee and the Minister have said, immigration is not the solution to the challenges of the social care system. It depresses wages, and bowing to pressure to exempt it from these rules, in the hope of increasing pay, makes no sense. I was struck by the eloquent speech from the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Nadia Whittome) about her experience in the care sector, and I pay tribute to her work in the sector before and during the pandemic. But our desire to change the immigration system in the future is not to denigrate those who have come here already and served this country so well, particularly during the pandemic. It cannot be the case that we cannot choose to change our system because we believe that that is somehow offensive to people who are already here. We are not proposing to throw people out who are here legally. We are saying that we choose a different future—a future that the British people chose when they chose to leave the European Union and end free movement.
I turn to Lords amendment 2. Under the terms of the withdrawal agreement, EU citizens who settled here before the end of the transition period can apply for settled status, so that the rights they currently enjoy are guaranteed. That is absolutely right. It was negotiated in good faith with the EU, and it applies both ways. But after the end of the transition period, it is right that EU and non-EU citizens should be treated in the same way. There should not be discrimination based on citizenship, and therefore EU citizens should meet the same requirements set out by our immigration rules— the points-based system that we will introduce—as non-EU citizens.
Lords amendment 2 would provide preferential family reunion rights under EU free movement law indefinitely. The result would be that family members of such UK nationals could forever bypass the immigration rules that would otherwise apply to family members of other UK nationals. It would be unfair to other UK nationals wishing to live in the UK with family members from other countries outside the EEA and Switzerland. The British people voted to ensure the creation of a new immigration system built on fairness, not on nationality. The creation of a lifetime right for one group of nationals would undoubtedly be unfair on other UK citizens living overseas who have family members from other parts of the world. When free movement ends, we should treat family members of all UK nationals living abroad equally. We have given a clear date of 29 March 2022 for people to bring close family members to the UK. That is fair. We are giving sufficient time for people to make changes if they wish to do so, but after that we will treat everybody the same.
I do not have time to go over the other Lords amendments, but by rejecting them we will pass the Bill as it was written. It a historic, important Bill. It is absolutely clear that delivering control of our borders, both in terms of the total numbers who come here and the skills that people bring with them, was what the British people—and my constituents in Newcastle-under-Lyme—voted for, and that is what the Bill will let us do. I am happy to vote to bring the Bill one step closer to law.
Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab)
I am pleased to speak in support of the Lords amendments. I am proud to come from Liverpool, a city built on immigration from all corners of the world, which has contributed to the diversity and vibrancy of our culture and history and is what makes Liverpool great and the best city in the world. Liverpool is home to the longest-established black, Chinese, Yemeni and Somali communities, who have contributed massively to the development of our city. We have faced and continue to face discrimination and oppression, but despite that I am deeply proud that Liverpool is a city of sanctuary, welcoming people fleeing wars and oppression, with the devastation that that brings.
As a black woman, I am appalled by this Government’s treatment of asylum seekers, refugees and many migrants who seek to come here to contribute to our society. We witnessed the injustice of the Windrush generation, who came here after the war, at the invitation of the British Government, to help to rebuild the country. We took their service, their contributions and their taxes; then, towards the end of their lives, we took away their citizenship.
I know from first-hand experience the contribution that so many of our migrants—especially those in the care sector, in our NHS, in care homes and in the domiciliary care sector—have made to our society, but their reward is to be undervalued and poorly paid. The Home Secretary’s proposed immigration system does not even count workers in the social care sector as skilled. Care workers, who are low paid but in reality highly skilled, are an essential workforce for our most vulnerable residents, yet they do not even rate a mention in the Home Secretary’s plans. The average salary for a care worker is £19,104, meaning that they do not reach the £26,500 threshold that she proposes.
We currently have a national shortage of 100,000 care workers—or we did before covid—and projections show that that could double by 2030. We have a growing, ageing population, with many people with complex health needs, including dementia. We are going to need more care workers, not fewer, so why has social care been excluded from the shortage occupation list? Because this Government do not value them.
The pandemic has shown, like nothing else has or will, the crucial role that care workers play in keeping our elderly and vulnerable citizens safe and cared for. They put their lives on the line every day without sufficient safeguards, yet the IPPR found that 79% of the EEA employees working full time in the UK would be ineligible to work in the UK under the skills and salary threshold that the Government want to impose. As a former Liverpool City Council worker who worked in adult social care, I know only too well the crucial work that carers undertake, often without recognition, on low pay and with zero-hours and precarious contracts. I urge the Government to rework the shortage occupation list to include these jobs.
I want to live in a country that welcomes immigrants and the contribution that they make and that offers a refuge to those who need it. I support all the Lords amendments, but especially the call for an impact assessment for our care sector as a matter of urgency to provide the actual data on how the proposed legislation will affect the provision.
Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con)
I am very conscious of time, so I am going to get stuck in straightaway.
I want to try to cover as many of the Lords amendments as I can, but I want to start by looking at social care. I represent an area where 16,000 people work in social care. I just want to pick up on one of the comments made by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Kim Johnson). She made a very eloquent speech, but I will say this. I care about my social care workers. I care about making sure they get the wages they deserve. I care about making sure they have the conditions they deserve. However, the amendment runs a real risk of tagging the social care debate—which we need to have, gloves off, because there are issues we need to discuss in an adult and appropriate way—into the migration debate. If we do that, we run the risk of pigeonholing it and not having the full broad-brush debate we need that covers everything from conditions to pay to the expectations we have of the sector.
Shaun Bailey
I am really sorry, but I have not got the time. I am more than happy to pick up with the hon. Gentleman outside the Chamber if he wishes. [Laughter.] I am always open to a debate, Mr Deputy Speaker. I have been very open-minded in this place.
I am conscious of time, so I will turn to Lords amendment 5 on the IT system. It is important to have this discussion because one thing we have noticed during these times is the digital disconnect—the digital lockout. Hon. and right hon. Members on all sides of the House have pointed that out. I accept the arguments advanced by my hon. Friend the Minister on the merits of using a digital system, but we need to be really careful that we do not lock a generation out.
I know from my area that there are many people who do not have access to computers and digital. There is a reliance more widely across Government on digital—obviously, we are going into the future and it is going to be there—but we cannot lock people out. From discussions with the Minister, I am heartened by the way in which the Department is open to being agile in that space, but we need to be mindful that we cannot lock out a generation.
I want to wrap up my comments, because I am conscious I have only 30 seconds left, but I will just say this. I stood on a manifesto in my constituency to get Brexit done. I stood on a manifesto to bring in a fair immigration system that my constituents felt ultimately stuck by that principle of fair play. I believe the Bill, unamended, does that. However, there are operational points, which I am sure the Minister will pick up in his winding-up speech, that we need to address. If we do that, we can be absolutely sure that we refine this and make it work for that sense of fair play that my constituents voted for.
David Simmonds
Like my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Shaun Bailey), I am very much of the view that the Bill has the purpose of replacing the arrangements we had in the European Union. I will not be supporting the amendments this evening, because I feel very much that the issues highlighted are principally about matters of management and administration of the process, rather than operation of law. That said, I hope those on the Government Front Bench are paying close attention to what has been said across the House this evening about a number of particular points. The two I would especially like to draw attention to are: the circumstances of undocumented children in the care system, and the point about documentary evidence in the hands of those who are applying for settled status.
I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for his time and attention to the first issue relating to undocumented children. However, we heard Members across the House emphasise the vulnerability of those in the care system to finding themselves at risk of a future Windrush situation because of the retroactive nature of some elements of the applications for settled status. While it is welcome that the Home Office accepts that people will be able to apply in effect out of time—that is a positive thing—it does not address the fundamental problem that a local authority with care responsibilities, or indeed a family member with a special guardianship order for a young person, would face if they do not have the necessary documentation proving that young person’s nationality in obtaining settled status for them in the United Kingdom. Although I think we recognise that that group is a relatively small group, it is vital that their needs are addressed to ensure that we do not, in 10 or 15 years’ time, find ourselves regretting that we did not take more action on that tonight.
Another point which arises from that of course is the one raised by my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), which is the significant cost of this. Local authorities paying that cost to the Home Office is simply a cost shunt from one taxpayer to another taxpayer, and I would urge the Home Office to give consideration to ensuring that, for children in care, those costs are either waived or substantially reduced to remove a final barrier.
I will finish on this point, time being tight. A number of Members have raised the issue of documentary evidence in the hands of the citizen. We have seen many examples in all different walks of life where we would have legitimate concerns about whether the digital record keeping, of all kinds of organisations and for all kinds of reasons, is sufficiently accurate. We all hear, as Members of this House, from our constituents about the issues that that causes them in their day-to-day life. For people who may be refugees, who may be facing a degree of digital exclusion or for whom English is not a first language, that is an even greater problem. I am reassured by the message from the Home Office that everybody who makes an application will receive a written response, with a number on it, that provides evidence of the status that has been granted, but I think it would be useful for all of us to hear a bit more in due course from the Home Office about how it proposes to ensure that that is something people appreciate the value of, and that it is kept and preserved so that the evidence is there for the future.
The UK has much to be proud of in the way that we respond to immigration. It is right that we keep this tight to the matters under consideration, but I trust that colleagues have heard the concerns across the House and that the Minister will address them in his summing up.
Kevin Foster
This has been an interesting and fascinating debate, which has mostly been reflective and reasonable. I hope colleagues will appreciate though that, in the seven and a half minutes I have, I will not be able to respond to every single point that has been raised.
I will start with the themes, and we have again had a lengthy debate on social care. I was pleased to hear the SNP spokesperson, the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Stuart C. McDonald), say he agreed with the MAC. He will recall the evidence that Brian Bell gave to the Public Bill Committee that considered this Bill, and I am glad to hear that he now agrees with that. I would say, however, that we are being clear again that the MAC has been free to make its own reviews and commissions, and to produce an annual report that can then be considered by this House. It will be able to do that independently, and it will almost certainly provide commentary on social care. To set up a body that is independent and free to make its own decisions, and then tell it all the reviews it needs to do does not make a great deal of sense. Similarly, we are keen that it is there, and it can be lobbied, including by the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Bambos Charalambous), about areas that it may wish to consider of importance. As we keep on saying, if the lesson people have taken from the last few months is that the solution to social care is to give employers an unlimited opportunity to recruit at the minimum wage, they have really taken the wrong lesson.
Moving on to the issues of modern slavery, we have again had some impassioned speeches and some very well-informed ones, particularly from my right hon. Friends the Members for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) and for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith). Again, I would say that we have obviously made the changes to guidance. We will bring forward those changes to guidance and have them in place on 1 January. He will appreciate why we will not do it before then, because people will still have free movement rights and we should respect that. But certainly we are happy to engage more widely around the position on what we can do and where we can ensure that the support these victims need is available to them, particularly as we remove the distinction between EEA victims who have free movement rights and non-EEA victims who do not, subject to the caveat that we will of course always look to see if a victim of modern slavery is eligible for the European settlement scheme.
Turning to the issues of family reunion and resettlement, I again point out that there are provisions under the UK’s migration rules that, certainly under part 8, go wider than purely affecting parents with children. We are in negotiations with the European Union, and the Under-Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp), is actively looking at what we can do. If we can get bilateral arrangements, then fantastic, but does it make sense in future to have a different set of rules for people in EEA countries versus those in the rest of the world? That is the core of this Bill, which is about free movement rights. If there is an agreement—a reciprocal arrangement—in place, then that would go beyond what we have as our baseline rules. Now that we have left the European Union, with the transition period and free movement coming to an end, whatever settlement we have in future—there is a debate to be had in this House about our asylum system, and we will have it at more length in the near future—it does not make sense to have a distinction between someone whose position is in the EEA and someone whose position is, for example, in Turkey, unless there are reciprocal arrangements that justify that difference of treatment.
The issue of children in care has rightly been a subject of some debate. I hear the point that has just been made about identification. Let me be clear: EUSS does not require a passport or an ID card; alternative measures can be used to prove entitlement through documentation. However, that issue is not particularly caused by EUSS because today you would need the same challenge to identify whether someone is a UK national, an EEA national or a rest-of-the-world national, given the impact that that has on free movement rights. However, we are happy to continue working with local authorities to see how we can help them to tackle these issues, and to work with high commissions to ensure that those who deserve their status receive it.
As we have said, there is a range of provisions around late applications and those who should make an application but do not. This is not just about children in care. We also include those under 18. If a parent does not make an application, and, at a later time, the child reaches the age of majority and they have to do a compliant environment check, for example, and discover that it has not been made, we would see that as a reasonable ground for a late application. As touched on, there is no specific time limit to that provision.
On detention, we have outlined our arguments. I am conscious that there are strong feelings on this in the House. We all want to see people swiftly moved out of detention and, if they have no right to be in this country, to be removed from it. We want detention to be used as a last resort. Its use has been declining over the past few years. That is partly because we cannot guarantee that a country in sub-Saharan Africa, for example, will issue us with travel documents for the person to be returned to it within the timeframe. In particular, we have to be clear that there is no ability to put someone in detention for no reason. We have to have a lawful basis for doing so, and that can only be where there is a reasonable prospect of removal or a threat to the public—although I accept that only a very small number of people are serious foreign national offenders.
On physical documentation, we are moving towards more digital statuses. For example, we are looking to see where we can use public services to automatically check status. In recent months, we have seen the advantage of EU citizens who already have EUSS—although they are not yet required to have it—being able to share that online and digitally when doing a range of checks, at a time when a face-to-face meeting to do so may be a lot less desirable. As touched on, it will not just be EEA nationals with status under EUSS who will be using digital status—we also intend the route for British nationals overseas, who will also be moving to digital. As touched on, countries such as Australia have had a system like this in place for some time. It was interesting to hear the hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) talk about the idea of digital passports. We are starting to look to the future where people may well travel on their biometrics and with digital identities rather than travelling purely on passports—although that is probably a few years away given that it would require technology being reciprocated in other nations.
I particularly enjoyed some of the speeches. My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Aaron Bell) hit the nail on the head: this Bill is about delivering a manifesto commitment. This Bill is about ending free movement, as voted for in the general election and in the referendum back in 2016. It is not there to have the whole range of debate around immigration, but I respect the fact that people took the chance to do that. This Bill is about delivering a manifesto commitment, and that is why we should remove these amendments, which do not go to that core goal.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. Before I put the Question, I would like to say that I am expecting some Divisions this evening, and there is a distinction between “should” and “must”. When I say “should”, it is guidance; when I say “must”, you must do it. If there is a Division, those sitting on the Front Benches must leave by the door in front of me; everybody else must leave by the door behind me. It is not optional. Please keep social distancing throughout; if you can touch the person in front of you, you are standing too close.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
In order to observe social distancing, the Reasons Committee will meet in Committee Room 12. Will those leaving the Chamber do so socially distanced?
Railway Station in Gamesley
Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con)
I rise to present a petition on behalf of the residents of High Peak calling for a railway station to be built in Gamesley. My long-standing petition, both online and on paper, has received strong local support, with over 30% of Gamesley’s adult population signing it. The people of Gamesley were first promised a railway station 52 years ago. I believe it is time to deliver on that promise.
The petition states:
The petition of the residents of High Peak,
Declares that the people of Gamesley were promised a railway station in 1968 to help residents commute on the Manchester to Glossop line; notes that a railway station would improve local transport connections by easing parking pressures at Dinting, shortening commuting times to Manchester, and reducing traffic around Glossop and Tintwistle; and further declares that the cost of a railway station would be modest for the Government and transformative for the life chances of residents.
The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urge the Government to prioritise the reallocation of funds to build a railway station in Gamesley, transforming the lives of Gamesley’s residents.
And the petitioners remain, etc.
[P002611]
Vaccine Misinformation Online
(3 years, 6 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab)
Mr Deputy Speaker, may I thank you and Mr Speaker for granting this debate? It is great to see Members from across the House in attendance this evening, and I hope that the issue that I am going to talk about will have widespread cross-party support.
I will cut straight to the chase: I have no time whatsoever for so-called anti-vaxxers, but I am afraid that the swelling evidence we have seen over the past few months of the pernicious impact of misinformation about vaccines now demands our attention, and it demands action.
Day after day, week after week in this place, we rightly come together to debate and discuss the best ways we can get on top of this virus and, ultimately, defeat it. Each one of us in this place knows that there is no silver-bullet solution to this public health and economic crisis, but we also know that identifying a clinically safe and effective vaccine is the damned nearest we are likely to get. However, I am afraid that the rapid and incessant corrosion of public confidence in vaccines propagated by the anti-vax movement risks threatening the success of the most powerful future tool we could have in our armoury.
Let me say at the outset that I am not against scrutiny of vaccines or people raising legitimate questions that may need answering. The public have a right to scrutinise vaccination policy as much as any other Government policy, but that must be done in an informed and measured way, based on facts rather than nonsensical conspiracy theories involving Bill Gates, or anyone else for that matter. Part of that process has to involve the Government being much more proactive about countering some of the scare stories and falsehoods peddled by the anti-vax movement, which play on people’s understandable fears.
Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman is making great progress, and he is talking about an issue that is of severe importance to my constituency, which has a 10% lower than average vaccination rate for measles, mumps and rubella. The misinformation that is being spread is palpable, and it is dangerous not only to schoolchildren but to adults. Will he therefore expand a little on the role of education in ensuring that we can inform people and re-energise their understanding and confidence that they are taking vaccines that will help them?
Chris Elmore
I agree with the hon. Gentleman and thank him for that intervention, for two reasons. First, it is very worrying that the UK no longer has measles-free status. That is a real worry for us all. Secondly, on education, there is a huge piece of work to be done where people are rightly questioning vaccine development processes. We are taught that it takes many years to develop vaccines. However, what people are not acknowledging through their legitimate questions is that the whole world is now looking for a vaccine. There is more funding and more availability of scientists working towards trying to solve this problem, so I agree with the hon. Gentleman entirely.
In private, I think even Ministers would agree that far too much of the Government’s response to the crisis has been typified by being too slow: too slow to lockdown, too slow to support business, too slow to test and trace effectively—but possibly too fast to Barnard Castle. But when all is said and done, I genuinely appreciate the huge pressure Ministers have been under over the past seven months. Mistakes are inevitable and hindsight is all too often a wonderful thing. The message I want to send to those on the Government Benches is that when it comes to the anti-vax movement, we do not need the benefit of hindsight. We simply cannot afford to be too slow yet again. We know that dangerous misinformation is eroding public trust in a potential future vaccine. We know that a lot of misinformation is being spread online and we know that the social media giants are systematically failing to act.
Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech on a very timely topic. I was a paediatric physiotherapist and I have seen the devastating effects of brain damage caused by simple diseases such as measles. Does he agree that we need to publicise the lasting ill effects of measles and long covid, and demonstrate the benefits of vaccines?
Chris Elmore
I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. I have been contacted by other Members who could not attend this evening. My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire) has received correspondence from parents saying that they will not have the MMR, for reasons that can only be deemed to be false. As I said to the hon. Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall) and as I am sure the Minister will say, it is perfectly legitimate to question vaccines. What is not legitimate is to base views on falsehoods. My hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Ruth Jones) is quite right, through her professional career before coming to this place, that catching measles can have a long-term negative impact.
With the benefit of foresight, and given the additional oxygen that the wild, ill-informed and baseless conspiracy theories will inevitably continue to receive over the next six months, the Government must bring forward a holistic cross-Government plan to counter this growing movement and bring the social media giants to heel. The anti-vax movement is nothing new—in fact, it has been around since the days of smallpox—but what we must not lose sight of in 2020 is the exponential levels of oxygen that the internet and in particular social media platforms give to such damaging falsehoods. As chair of the all-party group on social media, I have been keenly following the activities of various platforms since the pandemic began. It must be said that many sites have been doing some really positive work to try to promote reliable sources of information at a time when the need to tackle misinformation could scarcely be more crucial. Yet what many of the social media giants are repeatedly failing to do is proactively take down the burgeoning levels of misinformation about coronavirus vaccines spread on their platforms.
Anti-vax misinformation may not be displayed on billboards around the country, but growing evidence suggests it is starting to reach and influence as many people as if it were. We have already seen this digital pandemic spilling out on to our streets. The frankly scary protests we are seeing in ever greater numbers should alarm us all and underline the need for decisive action.
Jim Shannon
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on bringing forward this topical and pertinent issue. The Centre for Countering Digital Hate says that 31% of the British public would be hesitant to have a coronavirus vaccine if one becomes available. Does he not agree that that is incredibly disheartening? The Government must wholeheartedly, with transparent information, enter into this online debate now before people’s minds are warped by anti-vaxxers who have had success in seeing MMR take-up drop from 95% to 87%. We cannot allow them to take hold of the coronavirus debate, given the massive consequences for the general public right across the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Chris Elmore
I thank the hon. Gentleman. I have done significant work with the CCDH over recent months to try to look at this very issue. He may have taken my very next sentence almost word for word—would you believe it, Mr Deputy Speaker?—so I will not repeat it, but I agree with him. The serious point is that we need to tackle the issue now, through Members of Parliament, the Government, the official Opposition and the smaller parties, such as the one he represents. We all have a duty in this House to make sure we get the truth out about vaccine development and all its benefits.
Online vaccine misinformation is not merely a risk to those individuals who will not be vaccinated; it presents a risk to each and every one of our constituents and their loved ones, as the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said. The CCDH’s study showed that anti-vax social media accounts have 58 million followers, and that number is growing rapidly. The 147 largest accounts have amassed more than 7.8 million new followers since 2019, representing a staggering increase of 19%.
Facebook is overwhelmingly the leading host of such potentially dangerous information, but that platform is by no means alone. Across YouTube, Instagram, Twitter and various other popular social media sites, this virus of misinformation now presents a real threat to our ability to control the real and deadly coronavirus. It is clear that that is borne out in our communities. Research from the Royal Society for Public Health shows that as many as two in five parents with children under 18 in the UK have reported exposure to negative messages about vaccination online sometimes or often.
The problem did not arise overnight, yet it is exponentially on the rise and has, in part, been fuelled by many oxygenators in the public eye. The list of celebrities who have shared anti-vax content or their anti-vax views online grows painfully longer as we continue to respond to this crisis—Madonna, Lewis Hamilton, Novak Djokovic and Kanye West are just some of the biggest names with the largest followings. When we delve deeper into this web, the number of influential people helping to propagate at best ill-informed and at worst downright conspiracy theorist nonsense is truly alarming. I know that several celebrities have since clarified their stance after public pressure, but that is often when much of the damage has already been done. It is not surprising that the World Health Organisation found last year that vaccine hesitancy was one of the top 10 threats to global public health.
Politicians have a role too, of course. It is not useful to have a President of the United States who increasingly gives the impression that he is rushing to approve a vaccine for political expediency, rather than purely for the sake of public health. That only further corrodes trust in the international scientific community, who I have no doubt are working with the utmost integrity and precision. That shows why the rigorous process through which a vaccine receives approval urgently needs to be better communicated to the public. People need to feel reassured about the safeguards that are in place to ensure that new treatments and vaccines meet robust national and international standards. Ministers say that they are doing that, but this strategy is being enveloped in the increasingly chaotic communications that emanate from No. 10 and right across Government.
I have seen how challenging messaging on this issue can be. Since repeatedly raising issues around anti-vaxxers in this place and beyond, I have received countless messages from people actively promoting the conspiracy theories. At one point, there was even a suggestion that I was no better than the Nazis. For me, that has only underlined how important it is that we take much firmer action to counter much of the ill-informed nonsense we see online.
As I have repeatedly said, the social media giants are largely failing proactively to take down the burgeoning levels of misinformation about coronavirus vaccines that is shared and promoted on their platforms. I welcome Facebook’s decision last week to ban anti-vax adverts from its platform, but that plainly does not go far enough. We are now seven months into this pandemic, and Facebook has continually dragged its feet on anti-vax misinformation. Banning ads alone will not starve the many anti-vax Facebook groups of the oxygen they thrive on. The fact that Mark Zuckerberg is still willing to trouser money from ads that push back against Government policies that promote vaccines underlines just how much further we have to go. Mr Zuckerberg has said that Facebook will not actively take down all anti-vax misinformation. For me, that would represent a breach of the statutory duty of care that the Government’s new legislation is set to impose on the tech giants next year.
As has become typical with Mr Zuckerberg, instead of providing clear leadership and action, he is offering mere qualification and dangerous prevarication. If he does so because of financial concerns, that is shameful. If he does so because he actually believes it, that is terrifying. It is pleasing to see that Facebook, Twitter and others are starting to hide posts with warnings when claims are disputed or palpably false. I firmly believe that regardless of who has posted the content, they should continue do so without fear or favour. Whether it is posted by Presidents, F1 drivers or Joe Bloggs from No. 73, this poison of misinformation must be countered before it is allowed to become yet more potent.
I know that the Government have held meetings with representatives from the social media companies on this issue, and I would be grateful if the Minister could outline the outcome of those discussions. In July, the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care met Sir Nick Clegg—formerly of this parish, and now Facebook’s vice-president for global affairs and communications—about this issue. I have repeatedly asked for clarity about the outcome of that meeting. I have been told by the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds (Jo Churchill), via written questions that a “wide-ranging discussion” took place and that the Government are working with Facebook to
“promote positive messages about vaccination.”
Today, I ask the Minister to go into more detail about that wide-ranging discussion and the precise firm commitments that were made. In particular, was section 230 of the US Communications Decency Act 1996 discussed? What changes, other than those that I have stated, has Facebook implemented since that meeting?
Social media companies can do more. Only this week, YouTube updated its medical misinformation policy and now prohibits content that includes claims about covid-19 vaccinations that contradict expert consensus, local health authorities or the World Health Organisation. For example, content claiming that a vaccine will kill people or implant a microchip in a recipient’s body will be removed under the expanded policy.
YouTube says it has done that to allow it to take robust action should anti-vaccination conspiracy theories continue to grow as progress towards a potential vaccine is made. Of course, we will have to see how proactively it is enforced, but it is a really welcome step that will help to dilute the deluge of misinformation that is plaguing many platforms. I commend YouTube for its action and I urge the other big players to follow its lead and go further where necessary.
Misinformation is just one of the many dangers that people face online, which is why I have been calling for Government action on online harms since I first set up the APPG in 2018. The online harms White Paper is certainly a step in the right direction, but the pandemic has underlined how delaying the legislation only allows pent-up problems to deepen before our very eyes.
We know that social media giants will not adopt the changes that we all need without them being written into law, so why are we waiting so long for that to happen? Social media platforms need to have a statutory duty of care for their users, and people must be provided with the same level of safety online as offline, but the changes that the Government will hopefully implement in the coming months cannot stop there. Ministers must establish a social media health alliance to fund research and education initiatives and establish clearer guidance for the public.
When we consider how quickly technology and social media have changed in the past decade, we can imagine how unrecognisable they could be by 2025, 2030 or further in the future. Funding research through a health alliance would us help to stay ahead of the game and aware of any emerging threats, and it would give us much needed time to take action. No hon. Member would say that cyber-space has not rapidly got out of control. That wild west will continue to grow yet wilder unless we fund vital research foresight.
We do not have to fund it, however. Again, that is where social media giants need to be made to step up and fulfil their moral responsibilities. The alliance can be funded by, say, a small 0.5% levy on the profits that social media platforms make. Social media users generate multimillion-pound profits for the tech giants every year; the least they can do is reinvest a negligible portion of their prosperity to help to improve the health, well-being and safety of their customers.
What else can the Government do? I understand that the Cabinet Office is working closely with the WHO and academics from the University of Cambridge to help to counter some of the antivax discourse, and I am aware that there are already some good examples of the Government trying to do this. The University of Cambridge’s new Go Viral! game, supported by the Cabinet Office, aims to help the public to better understand the techniques used to spread fake news and to identify and disregard misinformation related to the coronavirus pandemic. That is a good individual example of how communications can be tailored to different audiences to help to counter misinformation about vaccines and covid-19 more widely, but the Government need many more examples that are suitable for a range of audiences and much more widely promoted.
It would be useful if the Minister gave the House an update on that work and detail what practical steps the Government are putting in place to ensure that the issue is being taken seriously. I know that the Department is working with Public Health England, NHS Improvement and the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport on those issues, but I would like to hear more about what the Government are doing with the devolved Administrations.
The WHO calls the three key components that contribute to a decision not to vaccinate the three c’s: confidence, complacency and convenience. There can be confidence in the safety and efficiency of a vaccine, but also in the system that regulates and provides it. Complacency happens because, due to the success of vaccination, many people do not have experience of diseases that vaccination prevents, such as polio or tuberculosis. Therefore, they underestimate the potential impact of catching the disease. Convenience includes factors such as the cost and ease of obtaining a vaccination. When the Minister responds, I would be grateful if she explained precisely how the Government are addressing each of the three c’s. If they are not, I would like her to explain why.
We have all seen how Government communications can reach a wide audience when the Government have the political will to give campaigns the resources they need, from “Get ready for Brexit” to “Stay at home, protect the NHS, save lives”. Government information can reach a wide audience if Ministers put their minds to it, so today I am calling on the Minister to bring forward an holistic, six-month, cross-Government strategy to better inform the public about the vigorous clinical procedures that are being followed in approving any covid-19 vaccine. Whether it be through myth-busting or making the process more transparent to the public at large, the Government need to start getting back on the front foot. A tidal wave of misinformation has already arrived on our shores, and without a clear communication strategy in advance of providing an effective and safe vaccine, I fear that a further tsunami of anti-vax falsehoods will fatally undermine the public health and economic wellbeing of our country. The Government promised to do “whatever it takes” to help the British people through this crisis. We know the threat that these anti-vax falsehoods pose, and it is self-evident that Ministers must do whatever it takes to counter this damaging discourse. We can and must break the circuit of this digital pandemic. If we fail, yet more lives and livelihoods could be lost.
The Minister for Digital and Culture (Caroline Dinenage)
I would like to start by thanking the hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) for tabling this really important topic for debate, and for his wider work as chair of the all-party parliamentary group on social media, which does incredibly important work to draw attention to this vital issue. Vaccine misinformation and, indeed, disinformation are an important issue that the Government and I take incredibly seriously. It is vital that all UK citizens have access to accurate information; it is a key part of our democracy. At their worst, disinformation and misinformation can threaten our democratic freedoms and cause harm to individuals and to our society.
During a time of national crisis, it is even more important that people have access to accurate information about covid-19. Throughout the pandemic, really harmful misinformation and disinformation of many kinds have been observed online, including conspiracy theories about 5G, fake claims about the health risks of wearing masks and the promotion of dangerous and false covid-19 cures. These are just a few of the many falsehoods that have been circulating online, and their impact is not limited to the online environment. They have real-life consequences, ranging from people needlessly spending money on items to protect themselves, to an increased risk of individuals not following crucial public health advice and thereby putting their own and others’ health at risk. And of course, we saw the disgraceful acts of vandalism and harassment that were spurred on by the groundless 5G conspiracy theories.
We are also aware that some people are almost certainly exploiting covid-19 to target minority groups online. I recently met members of Britain’s East and South East Asian Network, who highlighted the increase in online racism that their members had experienced during covid-19. We are absolutely clear that there is no place for racism, offline or online. Hateful content on digital platforms is a growing problem in the UK. It inflicts harm on victims, creates and exacerbates social divisions and erodes trust in platforms. We cannot continue to put up with it.
Worryingly, as the hon. Gentleman has said, we are seeing significant amounts of vaccine misinformation online. Confidence in vaccines across the UK remains high, but it is only natural that people should have questions about the vaccines that are available to them and about how they have been developed. However, it is simply unacceptable that some individuals online should seek to exploit citizens’ legitimate questions and deliberately create and share vaccine falsehoods for their own personal, political, or, worst of all, financial gain. We have seen a range of baseless and, in some instances, absurd narratives being shared about vaccines, including by individuals in the public eye, as the hon. Gentleman mentioned. They are much like those that we saw around 5G, and I will not give further time and attention to those groundless theories by repeating them here.
However, the act of sharing such falsehoods should not be confused with well-intentioned citizens asking perfectly understandable questions, as the hon. Gentleman said, including about how safe vaccines are. I remember the considerable misinformation that began to circulate about the MMR vaccine and its suggested link to autism in the early 2000s. I was a first-time mum at the time, and I found this false information, and the rate at which it spread, hugely unsettling and hugely worrying. That was of course in the days when social media was in its infancy. It did make a huge difference to a number of us who were mums at the time as to whether we would get our children immunised, and I am sure that it led to a rise in the number of measles cases subsequently. I urge those who have questions to seek advice from reputable sources such as the NHS and Public Health England, and to speak to trusted healthcare professionals.
Jim Shannon
I believe, as I think other Members would agree, that we need to have one message coming from all four Administrations—Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and England—together. It is very important that that happens. The hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) referred to it. It is a critical factor so that we all hear the same story no matter what part of this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland we live in.
Caroline Dinenage
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. We do all have to be singing from the same hymn sheet and giving out the same information.
We are taking a very proactive whole-of-Government approach to this. My Department—the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport—has the responsibility for monitoring and analysing anti-vaccine narratives. My officials are working very closely with the vaccine taskforce, which comes out of the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, while the Department of Health and Social Care is responsible for delivering effective communications around the vaccine. I meet my ministerial colleagues very frequently on this.
First and foremost, we are working with partners in the NHS, including GPs and nurses, to explain to patients the importance of vaccines. I am pleased that many organisations in the media and social media are acting very responsibly in providing accurate information. We are also working at pace to ensure that accurate information is available and accessible online, but we also have to address the swathes of inaccurate and misleading content alongside it. That is why we stood up the cross-Whitehall counter-disinformation unit in March as part of the Government response to covid-19.
Anthony Mangnall
My hon. Friend is making a very important point. I am sorry to have two bites at the cherry, but the point is that there is a knock-on impact from what people read online and then spread within their communities. Those who do not have access to online services are, in certain cases, hearing information first-hand from people they know, respect and are likely to believe. What direction might the Government be going in to try to counter that as a source of information?
Caroline Dinenage
As I say, we are working with a whole range of other Government Departments. The Department of Health is very much leading on the communication of this, and my Department is leading on the liaison with the platforms to ensure that tackling anti-vaccination messaging remains one of the key priorities of the cross-Whitehall counter-disinformation unit that we lead. We have been working with partners across Government to tackle this.
As the hon. Member for Ogmore said, we have seen some of the major social media companies update their terms of service and introduce new measures. Most recently, YouTube extended its policies to address false information. These are steps in the right direction. However, this year the Secretary of State for DCMS asked the major platforms to explore how they need to go further to stop the spread of this content. More needs to be done, more must be done, and we will continue to put pressure on these companies to take the necessary action against misinformation in all its guises.
It is really key that users are empowered with the knowledge and skills they need to keep themselves safe online as well. This includes how we recognise and report false and misleading content. We can all do our bit, whether it is fact-checking something before we share it or reporting something that is potentially harmful. Importantly, the Government are committed to publishing an online media literacy strategy that will set out our plans to ensure a co-ordinated and strategic approach to online media literacy, education and awareness for all users. That is due to be published next spring.
While covid has demonstrated the positive power of the internet, we have all seen that the increased amount of time spent online provides an opportunity for the spread of falsehood. The Government remain absolutely steadfast in our determination to tackle misinformation and disinformation in all its forms.
Question put and agreed to.
Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote
Member eligible for proxy vote | Nominated proxy |
|---|---|
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab) | Bell Ribeiro-Addy |
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Dr Rosena Allin-Khan (Tooting) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Margaret Beckett (Derby South) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Apsana Begum (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab) | Bell Ribeiro-Addy |
Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Mhairi Black (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab) | Zarah Sultana |
Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Amy Callaghan (East Dunbartonshire) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP) | Sammy Wilson |
Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Douglas Chapman (Dunfermline and West Fife) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Feryal Clark (Enfield North) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Mr Simon Clarke (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Chris Clarkson (Heywood and Middleton) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Alberto Costa (South Leicestershire) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Angela Crawley (Lanark and Hamilton East) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con) | Rebecca Harris |
John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op) | Dawn Butler |
Mims Davies (Mid Sussex) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab) | Rachel Hopkins |
Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Ms Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Rosie Duffield (Canterbury) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con) | Jeremy Hunt |
Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Mrs Natalie Elphicke (Dover) (Con) | Maria Caulfield |
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance) | Wendy Chamberlain |
Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Ind) | Jonathan Edwards |
Katherine Fletcher (South Ribble) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con) | Bim Afolami |
Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con) | Caroline Nokes |
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op) | Chris Elmore |
Dame Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP) | Ben Lake |
Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Sir Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op) | Chris Elmore |
Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con) | Fay Jones |
Dame Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Kate Hollern (Blackburn) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con) | Maria Caulfield |
Sir George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and The Border) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Imran Hussain (Bradford East) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North East Hampshire) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Simon Jupp (East Devon) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con) | William Wragg |
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab) | Kate Osborne |
Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Ian Levy (Blyth Valley) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Clive Lewis (Norwich South) (Lab) | Lloyd Russell-Moyle |
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Mr Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab) | Zarah Sultana |
Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
John Mc Nally (Falkirk) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab) | Kate Osborne |
Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
James Murray (Ealing North) (Lab/Co-op) | Chris Elmore |
Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
John Nicolson (Ochil and South Perthshire) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con) | Rebecca Harris |
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Abena Oppong-Asare (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Kate Osamor (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op) | Nadia Whittome |
Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con) | Peter Aldous |
Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op) | Chris Elmore |
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab/Co-op) | Chris Elmore |
Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC) | Ben Lake |
Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) | Chris Elmore |
Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Chloe Smith (Norwich North) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Royston Smith (Southampton, Itchen) (Con) | Robert Courts |
Dr Ben Spencer (Runnymede and Weybridge) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD) | Wendy Chamberlain |
Sir Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op) | Chris Elmore |
Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Edward Timpson (Eddisbury) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab) | Dawn Butler |
Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |
Dr Jamie Wallis (Bridgend) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
David Warburton (Somerton and Frome) (Con) | Stuart Andrew |
Claudia Webbe (Leicester East) (Ind) | Bell Ribeiro-Addy |
Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) | Ben Lake |
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP) | Patrick Grady |
Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab) | Chris Elmore |