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Oral Answers to Questions
(4 years, 8 months ago)
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Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Rebecca Pow)
Our clean air strategy sets out an ambitious programme of action to reduce air pollution from a wide range of sources. We have also put in place a £3.8 billion plan to tackle roadside nitrogen dioxide concentrations. Our Environment Bill makes a clear commitment to set a legally binding target to reduce fine particulate matter and enables local authorities to take more effective action to tackle air pollution in these areas.
Sara Britcliffe
Hyndburn has the highest levels of air pollutants in Lancashire and double the county’s average level of nitrogen dioxide. What work is being done with local councils such as mine to tackle that?
Rebecca Pow
I thank my hon. Friend for her question; I see that she is already standing up for her constituency. Air pollution has reduced significantly since 2010. Emissions of nitrogen oxides have fallen by 33% and are at their lowest level since records began, but that is not to say that there is not a great deal more to do. In Hyndburn, nitrogen dioxide concentrations around roads are actually within the statutory air quality limit, though local authorities are empowered to address local air quality concerns within their community. We have put in place a £3.8 billion plan to improve air quality and deliver cleaner transport, and last year we published our world-leading clean air strategy, which focuses on broader emissions beyond road transport and aims to cut air pollution and save lives. That strategy includes new and ambitious goals, legislation, investment and policies to clean up our air.
Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)
Will the Minister join me in welcoming the more stringent air pollution reduction targets that the Scottish Government have agreed in legislation, and does she agree that the UK Government should match those targets in their Environment Bill?
Rebecca Pow
I thank the hon. Lady for her question, but actually our clean air strategy has been described by the World Health Organisation as
“an example for the rest of the world to follow”.
With our £3.8 billion commitment, we are definitely leading the way.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
Angela Richardson (Guildford) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Rebecca Pow)
Forestry is devolved, and we are working with the devolved Administrations to increase tree planting across the UK to 30,000 hectares per year by 2025. To drive up planting rates in England, we announced a new £640 million nature for climate fund, and we are developing an ambitious delivery programme. We will seek feedback and evidence on this through our new English tree strategy.
Kerry McCarthy
I thank the Minister for that response. The Committee on Climate Change has said that we need to plant 32,000 hectares a year for the next 30 years if we are to meet the net zero target, but my understanding is that the Government’s recent announcement was that they would be planting 30,000 hectares in full by 2025, not per year. Can the Minister clarify that? The manifesto commitment was per year, but I think the Government have not now committed to that.
Rebecca Pow
Just for clarification, in our manifesto it was 30,000 hectares per year.
Angela Richardson
I thank the Minister for her answer, and I welcome the investment in our green infrastructure. May I ask how the Government have funded woodland creation?
Rebecca Pow
The Government have made major commitments. Chiefly, as I have mentioned, we announced the £640 million nature for climate fund in our manifesto. Ministers are working with officials on policy proposals to increase tree planting in England over this Parliament. We have also kick-started funding for planting the new Northern and Great Northumberland forests. In addition, last year we opened the £50 million woodland carbon guarantee, giving long-term income support to new woodland creation projects, while pump-priming the domestic carbon market, which is obviously something that will grow.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Minister for her responses so far. In her statement in answer to the original question, she referred to having been in touch with the Northern Ireland Assembly and the regional Administrations. Northern Ireland lags behind when it comes to tree planting. What discussions has the Minister had with the Northern Ireland Assembly to ensure that tree planting in Northern Ireland catches up with the tree planting that she mentioned in her statement and answers?
Rebecca Pow
Obviously, we are keen for tree planting to expand everywhere, including Scotland. Scotland already does a lot of tree planting, because the nature of its landscape is somewhat different from ours. We have a raft of measures, and our officials will be speaking to officials in Northern Ireland. It is very important that we keep all that contact and do this as a joint thing. Trees work on the atmosphere: they hold the carbon dioxide, and that goes everywhere, so we need to be doing this jointly.
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
It is absolutely right that we vastly ramp up tree planting to help with carbon capture, but may I ask the Minister not to overlook kelp? It absorbs more than six times the amount of carbon as trees. We have vast tracts of seabed available, not least off Sussex. It helps with marine conservation, and it is also a food source. Please could we look at that more closely, and at how we can promote it, as we want to do, in Sussex?
Rebecca Pow
My hon. Friend raises an incredibly interesting point. It is something I am personally very interested in. As we speak, there is a project under way to plant kelp and to look at how its carbon capture is going. Mudflats are similarly really important, as are salt marshes. There could be a big future for this on our new horizon of dealing with the land and the landscape. All this carbon capture is a new feature in relation to climate change, and I think kelp will definitely be part of it.
John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
The Minister has talked a lot about planting trees, but made no mention of where those trees will come from; in other words, will they be sourced within the UK or will we be importing them, which will have an impact not only on employment but on the importation, as we have seen previously, of pests and diseases? Will the Minister therefore give long-term contracts to the horticultural industry so that it can rapidly ramp up the production of seedlings, for the sake of the British economy and as a health and safety measure ?
Rebecca Pow
I forgive the right hon. Gentleman for going on, because it is brilliant to mention horticulture. Horticulture is such an important part of this country, and we are in discussions with nurseries, because he is absolutely right that they have to provide these trees. We would obviously like as many as possible to come from the UK, because that is very important, particularly on biosecurity grounds. I see a great new future in that for those nurseries, and we are in discussions with the industry.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
I declare an interest, as a member of Kettering Borough Council, which is increasing its planting of British native trees from 250 to 500 a year and supports plans for 40 hectares of new trees across north Northamptonshire on an annual basis. What more can be done to incentivise local authorities to plant more trees?
Rebecca Pow
As ever, my hon. Friend is a fantastic advocate for his constituency. Many local authorities are embarking on excellent planting schemes. There will be some big opportunities through the Environment Bill in the biodiversity net gain sector, where lots of people will be able to offset when building a development; they can plant some trees to add 10% more biodiversity. There will be opportunities right around the country through the new nature recovery strategies which my hon. Friend’s local authority will be a part of providing, and that will determine where the trees should be planted.
Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Rebecca Pow)
I feel like a jack-in-a-box, Mr Speaker.
The UK supports a number of initiatives to eliminate deforestation from supply chains in line with the aims of the Amsterdam declaration. That includes establishing UK roundtables on palm oil and soya to help UK companies realise sustainable sourcing commitments and supporting the tropical forest alliance, a public-private initiative with over 160 members. We also convene the global resource initiative, which will shortly recommend further actions that the UK can take to green our supply chains.
Liz Twist
In the year when are due to host COP26, the Environment Bill must be world leading and set an example for other countries to follow. How will DEFRA take responsibility for the UK’s global footprint, and will the Minister confirm that there will be action to remove deforestation from UK supply chains in future?
Rebecca Pow
The hon. Lady raises an incredibly important point and our vision is for everyone to benefit from more sustainable production of vital agricultural commodities. We have addressed this within the Environment Bill. Our global footprint is incredibly important, and we are considering the recommendations in the global resource initiative and will be very seriously thinking about how Government can take that forward. We are leading by example in many other areas, particularly our Government’s partnerships for forests programme and the soya programme that I mentioned in my previous answer.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice)
The Government are in close contact with representatives of the food supply chain and with local authorities, including those in the north-east, and also with charities, to ensure that those who need to stay at home will have continued access to food. We have well established ways of working with the food industry during disruption and our retailers already have highly resilient supply chains and are working around the clock to ensure that people have the food and other products that they need.
Chi Onwurah
All of us found the images of empty supermarket shelves disturbing, but for those who are vulnerable, aged, unwell, isolated or dependent on food banks, that is causing real fear as to where their next meal is coming from. In the north-east, we have excellent local producers, but much of our food is dependent on supply chains, and I am afraid the Secretary of State’s response will not have given the reassurance required. What specifically is he doing to ensure the supply of food to the supermarket shelves and from the supermarket shelves to people’s homes?
George Eustice
It is very important to note that we have significant resilience in our food supply chain, in that food manufacturers are used to coping with increases in demand, not least every year during Christmas. There is not a shortage of food. The challenge we have had is getting food to shelves in time when people have been purchasing more. That is why we have taken steps including setting aside delivery curfews so lorries can run around the clock, and relaxing driver hours to ensure that deliveries can take place more frequently. We are in discussion with Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government colleagues about other support that we would deliver locally to get food to those who are self-isolating.
Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/Co-op)
I thank the Secretary of State for meeting me and the rest of the shadow DEFRA team this week to discuss concerns about the national crisis and food availability. I urge him to go further on some of the measures he has set out. I hope my questions are seen as being asked in a constructive spirit.
People are worried about how they will feed their family, especially if they are self-isolating, have had their income slashed to statutory sick pay or have lost their job. However, millions are already in food poverty, and this is an immediate family emergency for many of them. With food banks running low on food, and given that many food bank volunteers are over the age of 70 and will soon need to self-isolate, what steps is the Secretary of State taking to assist those in genuine hunger today?
George Eustice
As I have said, we have taken a number of steps to ensure that we can get food to supermarkets. I have been in daily calls with the food supply sector. Those have included discussions about food banks, and we are in dialogue with supermarkets to ensure that they get access to the supplies they need. I welcome the constructive approach that the shadow Secretary of State is taking. We are also working on specific proposals to help the most vulnerable—those with clinical problems—to ensure that we can get food to them should they be self-isolating.
Luke Pollard
I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. I think he will need to provide more detail for those who are in genuine hunger today; the hope of detail in the future is not reassuring people at the moment. If I may press him further on supermarkets, we discussed the so-called grey hour, when elderly people can shop before the rest of society goes into the supermarkets. Will he press the Department for Transport to relax the times for free bus pass use to ensure that people can get to the supermarkets? Will he also ensure that every supermarket, not just the Co-op, is still contributing food to food banks and organisations such as FareShare? I suspect that he and his colleagues will want to ensure a private sector-led solution wherever possible, but I press him on this issue, because we will not get through this crisis unless there is Government intervention to support those people and ensure that food supply chains remain open.
George Eustice
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that there is a role for the Government. We must take action to set aside any obstacles to making the food supply chain operate in a way that ensures that people have food. On food banks, as I said, we are in discussion with supermarkets. We have also had discussions with them about competition law, and we will take whatever action is necessary to ensure that they can jointly plan their approach to these matters. For the most vulnerable, we are working on proposals that my colleagues in MHCLG will announce shortly.
Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con)
Getting home deliveries to potentially millions of self-isolating households is a massive logistical exercise. Is it time for the Government to think about further intervention, including, I am afraid, the suspension of competition rules, so retailers and haulage companies can work together to meet this huge national challenge?
George Eustice
My right hon. Friend makes a very important point. That is why earlier this week we had a detailed workshop with both retailers and food processors to identify what they would like to do and what changes to competition law we would need to consider and implement. We are working on that right now.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
Telford and Wrekin Council will now have to deliver 5,000 free school meals a day without being able to do so through schools, except for key workers’ children. What more can the Government do, given that many volunteers and people working in charities who might offer to backfill where support is required may be self-isolating or may have been encouraged by the Government to self-isolate? There really is an issue with logistics.
George Eustice
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport is working on a national volunteer project to co-ordinate the many offers of volunteer help that we have had. In the context of food, we have been working very closely with supermarkets to expand their click-and-collect services to make it easier, where possible, for them to expand their delivery capacity to homes. We continue to work with other groups to identify how we can get food to people at this difficult time.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
Care homes and other residential settings that have been let down by their wholesale food suppliers are now being told by supermarkets that they will be treated just like any other consumer. Two chickens do not go a long way if they have 136 residents to feed. Will the Secretary of State urgently look into this issue for all residential settings, please?
George Eustice
I am happy to look at the specific issue that my hon. Friend raised. However, it is also worth noting that while there has been an increase in demand at retail shops, notably in supermarkets, there has been a sharp fall in demand in the service trade, as restaurants, pubs and so forth find that demand for their services has plummeted. Our understanding at the moment is that there are not issues in the food service supply chain, but I am happy to take up any particular case that he might have.
Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab/Co-op)
Our supermarket workers have shown themselves to be the heroes of retail, making sure that people get fed and get the food that they need, but there are real concerns about whether they can maintain that service if they are not included in the list of key workers. Of course, many will have children who will need care if the schools cannot accommodate them. Can we have an assurance today that our retail workers will be on the list of key workers?
George Eustice
The Prime Minister made reference yesterday to the importance of those working in the food retail sector, in particular. Later today, the Government will announce jobs defined as key workers, but I can assure him that we fully recognise that over 25% of staff generally working in the food supply chain have children of school age, and that will be reflected when the list is published.
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice)
We have committed to maintaining the budget for our future agriculture policy at the same level as now, but to direct it differently. We are designing our farming reforms with those who work in agriculture and considering resilience issues. During the transition period, farmers will have time to adapt and prepare for the new policy.
Kevin Hollinrake
Farmers’ and landowners’ ability to protect their crops and their livestock will be seriously compromised unless general licences are issued for protected areas, gulls and traps this spring. Will my right hon. Friend set out what he can do to make sure that that is the case?
George Eustice
My hon. Friend raises an important point. I am aware that Natural England intends to circulate the stoat-trapping general licence to stakeholders this week, and it is working hard to grant those licences as soon as possible. People wishing to control wild birds in protected areas need to apply for an individual licence, as must those wishing to control lesser black-backed or herring gulls except for safety reasons, given their poorer conservation status. We are also considering the best future approach as part of our review.
Damian Hinds
Right now, DEFRA, quite rightly, is focused totally on the food-supply questions that we have been talking about, but will my right hon. Friend also confirm that he will look to move forward with a trade and standards commission for food quality for UK consumers and for a fair field for our farmers?
George Eustice
My right hon. Friend makes a very important point. He will be aware that our manifesto and our published objectives for the US trade deal make it clear that we will protect our food standards and animal welfare in any future trade deals. I am aware that there has been a proposal for a trade and standards commission, which we are considering, and we are in discussion with other Departments, such as the Department for International Trade, about how best to ensure that agricultural expertise is fully reflected as part of the negotiating team.
Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)
If the motto in past crises was “Dig for Victory”, so far this one has been much more “Distribute for Victory”. Of course, the retail sector is very important, but I am less sanguine than the Secretary of State about future food supply and I think that we need to make sure that we support all those in that chain. The poultry industry, for instance, is very time-dependent. Two or three days extra for chickens on farms can lead to a whole range of welfare and logistical issues. Can I take it that the Secretary of State is pressing his colleagues to ensure that all those in the food supply chain are recognised on the Government list of key groups of workers, so we make sure that we secure our future food security?
George Eustice
As I said in response to an earlier question, the Government recognise that a significant number of staff working throughout the supply chain, both retailers and food processors, have children of school age; we estimate that the figure is between 25% and 33%. We therefore recognise that many of them will need to be defined as key workers, but further information on that will be published by the Government later today.
Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP)
The standards of agriculture produce and animal welfare in Angus and elsewhere in these islands is among the best in the world. Is it not the case that the standards of imports are not always up to the standards of UK production? Is it not important that we follow the simple premise that, if something cannot lawfully meet the UK standards of production, it should not lawfully be imported to the UK? Will the Secretary of State enshrine that in the Government’s legislation?
George Eustice
We had a clear commitment in our manifesto to protect food standards and animal welfare in any future trade deals we do. Our view is that the right way to do that is through getting our mandate and approach to the negotiations right, and not necessarily by attempting to draft something in legislation.
Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice)
The Government activated the flood recovery framework in November 2019 and February 2020 to provide support to communities such as Calderdale, where 100 mm of rain fell in just 12 hours, causing extensive flooding. I extend my thanks to all those involved in the responses to recent floods, including those in Calderdale; I thank the local council, the Environment Agency, the military and emergency services for all their hard work.
Craig Whittaker
As my right hon. Friend is aware, the funding package comes from several different Departments and, in the case of an isolated incident like that of the Calder Valley after Storm Ciara, and even after 1,200 properties were flooded, Government support for households was not triggered. Will he ensure that support by way of an off-the-shelf package is available for any affected area in future and that no area has to wait nine days again for support?
George Eustice
My hon. Friend raises an important point. We are having discussions across government about having a consistent threshold above which the flood recovery framework might be activated. On Storm Ciara, which affected his constituency very badly, in the event, we decided to treat Storms Ciara and Dennis as a single episode, which meant that Calderdale did qualify for the same support that other areas had.
Mr Richard Holden (North West Durham) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Rebecca Pow)
Our new environmental land management scheme will reward farmers and other land managers for delivering environmental public goods. We are committed to co-designing the scheme with stakeholders to produce the best possible outcomes for both the environment and our farmers and land managers. We are currently running a programme of tests and trials, which will be followed by a three-year national pilot, commencing in late 2021. The scheme will roll out from late 2024 across England.
Mr Holden
Although my upland farmers in Weardale are already working on schemes such as peat restoration and afforestation, my lowland farmers are particularly concerned that they might miss out on some of these environmental schemes. What reassurance can my hon. Friend give me that these schemes will be available to all?
Rebecca Pow
I thank my hon. Friend for that pertinent question. New schemes will be for all farmers, in all areas and for all types of landscape. At the moment, farmers can enter our new countryside stewardship agreements, which start from January 2021. Those who sign up to the improved scheme and who wish to enter the new environmental land management scheme will be able to leave their countryside stewardship agreements at agreed exit points, without penalty. Lots of farmers were concerned about that issue, but it is now clear that they can do that. Financial assistance under the environmental land management scheme will be available for all farmers and land managers, including lowland farmers in the country who undertake the eligible activities.
Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice)
As my hon. Friend is aware, Henry Dimbleby is leading an independent review of the food system to develop recommendations to shape a national food strategy. The review was launched in June 2019. A vision for the food system is scheduled for publication in the spring of this year, and the review’s final recommendations will be published over the winter. The Government will then respond to those within six months.
Neil Parish
In these moments of great crisis when we need food, there is no doubt that home-produced food is more important than ever. I would really love it if the food strategy incorporates how we are going to produce more home-produced food. Further to the question from the hon. Member for Angus (Dave Doogan), I am looking forward to the Secretary of State supporting the amendment from the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee to maintain high standards on food imports. Can that all be incorporated into the food strategy?
George Eustice
My hon. Friend makes an important point. Events such as those we are experiencing now remind everyone that a critical component of our food security is healthy and vibrant domestic production, which is why we have committed in the Agriculture Bill to review our food security every five years. That will include a review of the health of the food supply chain and food production in this country.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
What steps are the Government taking to adapt the seasonal workers scheme to support farmers in this important growing season?
George Eustice
The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. If there is disruption to people visiting the UK as a result of restrictions put in place, or general concern in other countries, that may have an impact on the number of seasonal workers who come here from countries such as Bulgaria. We are working with the industry and the National Farmers Union to assess the situation, and we will be working on proposals to address it before May and June, which is when it is likely to present itself as an issue.
Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice)
The covid-19 pandemic presents significant challenges for our country and, indeed, the rest of the world. It is currently my primary focus. I have been holding regular calls with key players in the food supply chain, to ensure that we take whatever steps are necessary to enable our food producers, distributors and retailers to meet an increase in demand. I wish to record my thanks to all those who work in the food industry—whether on a production line, driving a delivery vehicle or in a supermarket—for all the hard work they are putting in at this difficult time.
Ben Everitt
Our farmers are famously hardy folk, but like everybody else they are not immune to the effects of coronavirus, and nor are farm businesses. What further support will be available to farmers?
George Eustice
Earlier this week the Chancellor unveiled a package of measures to support all businesses, and some farmers would qualify for that. I am having regular meetings with the National Farmers Union to address any concerns that it might have. The NFU’s principal concern, in common with many other industries in the food supply chain, is the potential pressures on staff.
Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab)
The shadow Secretary of State and I have spoken to fishers and their representative organisations right across the UK in recent days, and they are worried. In just the past week, the market value of fish landed by British fishers has fallen to 20% of normal rates. There are significant concerns about the viability of the UK fishing industry, especially the small boats that are the backbone of the British fleet. Many fishers are telling us that they will go bust in the next two weeks. Does the Secretary of State agree that we must take whatever steps are necessary to support fishers and the fishing industry to cope with the pressures of the covid-19 crisis?
George Eustice
I obviously agree that our fishing industry is incredibly important. The best way we can help it is to get the markets moving again. I understand that there is a particular issue with disruption to markets in the European Union, which is contributing to the situation. Officials had meetings yesterday with fishing representatives, and I am looking for some feedback from that to agree what we do next.
Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con)
George Eustice
My hon. Friend raises an important point: it is not just those employers with large numbers of staff that could face challenges; it could be those with a very small number of staff, or those with no staff, who operate alone. We are working with the National Farmers Union and others to work out ways to address this issue. It will require friendly and supportive neighbourly behaviour in some cases.
Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab)
George Eustice
The hon. Lady raises an important point. The Government have given specific guidance to those considered most at risk, including the over-70s. There will be additional support for those with clinical issues that make them especially at risk.
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
George Eustice
My right hon. Friend makes an important point. During this situation, we need everybody to be considerate to others. A number of supermarkets have piloted the idea of a reserved hour at the start of each day for the elderly and most vulnerable. That appears to be working and we will encourage others to do that. There is a limited amount of delivery capacity—currently about 7% of the market—but we will increase that if we can.
John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
George Eustice
When it comes to public procurement, for a number of years, we have had an approach called the balanced scorecard, which means that it is not all about price and that our procurement authorities should also take into account quality and other factors, too.
Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)
The spring selling season will soon be upon us. Across the country, against the background of the coronavirus crisis, farmers will be concerned to establish whether they will be able to buy and sell their livestock. Can the Secretary of State give any reassurance to farmers as to the extent to which they will be able to use their local farmers auction markets?
George Eustice
We are looking into that issue, but it is obviously critical to keep the food supply chain moving.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
Supermarket queues are undoubtedly adding to the spread of coronavirus, not least because of a lack of social distancing. Doing whatever it takes means that there needs to be a sense of urgency from Government Ministers that simply has not been on display thus far across Government. [Interruption.] I am sorry, but it is true. People need to see a much greater sense of urgency. Queues need to be tackled to prevent the spread within supermarkets. Will the Secretary of State, with Cabinet colleagues, today implement and enforce social distancing in supermarkets to reduce the spread in that part of society?
George Eustice
We will not take that measure. It was done in Italy through a restriction on the number of people in stores, but they found that they had hundreds of people huddled together at the entrance to the store, so it was counterproductive.
Robert Courts (Witney) (Con)
There is growing concern in West Oxfordshire about the condition of the River Windrush, and particularly sewage discharge. We urgently need the Environment Agency and Thames Water to work together to clean it up. When the immediate emergency has eased, will the Secretary of State visit to see the river’s condition and help me to work with those two parties to make a real difference?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Rebecca Pow)
Such incidents are an issue for the Environment Agency, which is the first port of call in a pollution incident. Water companies have water management plans and, under the new Environment Bill, will have to have sewage management plans as well, which will help. Of course I will meet my hon. Friend to discuss the issue.
Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)
I understand that in 2019, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and FareShare worked on a pilot scheme to make sure that surplus food was diverted to people who needed it. That is still being evaluated. When will Ministers come up with the evaluation? Is now not a good time to put the scheme into practice?
George Eustice
As I said, we are working with food banks and retailers to ensure that they have the supply of food they need through schemes such as FareShare.
Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con)
I am sure that all hon. Members welcome the additional investment in flood and coastal defences in last week’s Budget. Will the ministerial team continue to work with local authorities such as Calderdale, which was flooded recently, to ensure that existing gaps in flood defence schemes are addressed?
Rebecca Pow
I thank my hon. Friend for that question. The Government are making a massive commitment to flood spending and they have increased the current programme from £2.6 billion to £5.2 billion between 2021 and 2027. They will be working with all areas that have floods, listening to concerns and considerations to learn lessons from what happened this time and using the current grant system, but I, the Secretary of State and the Ministry for Housing, Communities and Local Government are considering how the whole project might be improved.
Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP)
Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP)
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire)
The commission has had no recent formal discussions on the potential merits of electronic voting. Colleagues on the Procedure Committee have examined what practical and procedural changes to Divisions might be necessary in the context of the covid-19 outbreak and I thank them for their work on that. I know that they will continue to keep the situation under review. Any decision to implement electronic voting would need to be agreed by the whole House. The commission’s responsibility for this matter would be limited to the financial and staffing implications of such a decision.
Dave Doogan
The SNP has long advocated modernising this place so that votes do not take hours. As a still relatively new Member, I am shocked by the archaic practices that we, as Members, have to undergo in order to vote. Does the hon. Member representing the House of Commons Commission ever see this House leaving the late 19th century?
Pete Wishart
I thank my hon. Friend for that question. In my almost 20 years in this House I have probably spent the best part of a week traipsing around the Division Lobbies, exercising my democratic obligations as a Member of the House. It is a week that I am certain I will never get back. Last July, the Procedure Committee began an inquiry into the merits of electronic voting, which was interrupted by the general election in December. So far, no decision has been made to reopen that inquiry, but I encourage my hon. Friend to beat a path towards the Procedure Committee to encourage it to take up the inquiry again. Knowing of his determination, I am pretty certain that he will do so.
Mr Speaker
We are reminded that we do respond to the commission’s views as well.
Kenny MacAskill
Last week, the Leader of the House declined the idea of an increased use of deferred Divisions. Given that we are in a changing landscape, that guidance has changed and, even within this Chamber, we are now self-distancing, will the commission reconsider that position?
Pete Wishart
The commission is acting with the most up-to-date medical advice from Public Health England. If at any point it was felt that we could not continue with Divisions in their current form, all feasible alternative arrangements will be looked at and put in place. I think my hon. Friend will have noticed just how responsibly this House has responded to the requests for social distancing. We just have to look around the Chamber and observe how we have positioned ourselves. I shall leave Members to form their own view about the wisdom of packing out the cramped Division Lobbies if there are any further Divisions in this House. I note that there has been none this week, and I know that it is the intention of Whips throughout the House to ensure that we will be using the Division Lobbies as infrequently as possible.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire)
The control of access to the House of Commons is vested in you, Mr Speaker, and not the commission. Mr Speaker announced additional access restrictions on Monday 16 March, following the statement by the Prime Minister to prevent the risk of exposure to coronavirus. This includes restricting access to passholders and to those attending for business reasons, such as witnesses to Committees. Those measures were implemented with immediate effect. Updates on Tuesday and yesterday outline further measures to prevent the risk of exposure to covid-19, including stopping all non-essential access to the estate, and from today closure of several search and screen points around the estate.
Clive Efford
I tabled this question when there were rumours that Parliament would be closed and that we might not be invited back after the recess. Things have now moved rapidly beyond that, and we have to appreciate the members of staff who support us in keeping this place open so that we can do the vital job of holding the Government to account during this crucial period. May I invite the Minister to pay tribute to those staff who support us?
Pete Wishart
It is, in fact, me who will be invited to congratulate the staff around the estate. Every effort possible is taking place to ensure that staff are kept safe and that their exposure to risk is as minimal as possible. The hon. Gentleman is right to identify that every effort will be made to keep this place open so that we can fulfil our democratic obligations, but that will always be done with the safety of all who use this estate in mind, and will constantly be under review.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire)
Enabling remote working for hon. Members and staff is a key priority in the Parliamentary Digital Service’s response to covid-19. One focus is the provision of emergency laptops to Members’ staff who are normally equipped with desktop computers. Currently, a reasonable stock of laptops is available, but it should be noted that market supply has been severely disrupted. As of close of business on Wednesday 18 March, 56 laptops had been provided to 41 hon. Members’ offices. Other IT equipment has been made available as requested, such as headsets for Skype for Business use. The Microsoft Office 365 suite of tools is available remotely via personal devices and parliamentary computers. Part of that suite is Microsoft Skype for Business, which offers one-to-one video conferencing facilities. No more extensive video conferencing service is yet deployed.
Chi Onwurah
I am sure that we all agree that the Parliamentary Digital Service provides amazing support for Members of Parliament in our wide-ranging and very demanding requirements. But our jobs are changing; I am not going to be able to have face-to-face contact with any constituent for the foreseeable future, and my staff will all be working from home, so we need to have support for a broad range of new applications. The Commissioner talks about laptops and hardware. I want to know that PDS will have the resources to support a wide range of new applications, such as video conferencing.
Pete Wishart
I thoroughly agree with the hon. Lady. I think that all Members of the House will now know the value of being able to keep in contact with constituents through video conferencing and other remote methods. All I can say is that the PDS digital support desk will continue to offer a 24-hour-a-day service. Undoubtedly there will be delays due to the volume of calls from people working remotely, but the team will make a real effort to deal with all calls as soon as they possibly can. As I said in my original answer, the PDS team want to ensure that as much facility and resource as possible is given to hon. Members, and I am sure that they will be working to secure and achieve that.
Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD)
I meet a variety of organisations at Westminster, and would now like to do this remotely. However, the Skype system to which the Commissioner has referred only supports connections to those with parliamentary accounts. This helps me to link with my team, but will the Parliamentary Digital Service consider making Skype accessible to those outwith the parliamentary network? As a new MP, I also have new staff joining my team. What are the learning and development team doing to offer critical training for new starters—for example, on the Department for Work and Pensions, and so on? Will there be opportunities for those training sessions to be available remotely, as opposed to face-to-face as they have been up to now?
Pete Wishart
Every effort will be made to ensure that people are connected, and all facilities will be used to keep Members of Parliament in contact with their constituents. The PDS support desk is looking at the very issues mentioned by the hon. Lady, and hopefully progress will be made on all that. I think that the lesson here—this seems to be required from all Members—is ensuring that we can work remotely, that all our staff are as connected as possible, and that we continue to provide a level of service that we feel is commensurate with our roles as Members of Parliament. I am pretty certain that all Members will be providing that service in the weeks to come.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s energy to move us from the 19th century, particularly during these difficult times. The move to digital is important, but the telecoms companies are concerned that the sudden deluge from the entire nation moving to a digital platform will overpower those platforms themselves. Has he considered any contingency plans in case we do need to return in full back to the 19th century?
Pete Wishart
All I can say to the right hon. Gentleman is: let us not go back to the 19th century. Let us hope that our 21st-century resources and infrastructure are able to cope with the increased demand that Members of Parliament and other people across our community will make on them. It is beyond my remit as a member of the House of Commons Commission to be able to comment on the failings of some of the infrastructure and its ability to withstand some of the demands that will be placed upon it.
All I can say to the right hon. Gentleman is that in the House of Commons, staff in digital services will do everything possible to ensure that we continue to be connected with our constituents. I would suggest to all Members that if they have any concerns about being able to work remotely or concerns about the ability of the network to withstand things, please get in touch with the 24-hour services available from digital services. I am sure everyone knows the number: 2001.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
The challenges of the last few days and weeks have thrown up why we need to modernise this place and why we need to get on with restoration and renewal. I understand that the Commission is meeting on Monday to discuss next steps. Is it not time that we gave the sponsor body the powers to get on with dealing with the Northern Estate, make sure it is in the hands of proper professionals who can get on with the work and make sure that we are resilient for this sort of situation in the future and for many years to come?
Pete Wishart
I commend the hon. Lady’s creativity in being able to shoehorn restoration and renewal into question about digital facilities. She is absolutely right: the Commission will meet on Monday to consider further measures when it comes to restoration and renewal. The hon. Lady is very closely connected to and interested in this work, and those measures will be communicated when we have concluded our meeting on Monday. It is something, even in the current conditions and with the crisis that is facing us, that the Commission takes very seriously, and we will continue to inform the House of ongoing statements and work in relation to restoration and renewal.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)
I am pleased to be able to tell my hon. Friend that the Church opens as many, if not more churches than it closes each year. Parishes may want to focus their mission elsewhere, if the church in question is in a very remote rural location or if there is a very high repair bill. Use for worship by other Christian bodies is generally considered the best use, but there are many other suitable uses.
Bob Blackman
I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. In my constituency, we have 24 churches of different denominations, yet the Christian religion is actually the minority. More recently, we have had a huge influx of Romanian citizens who are very keen churchgoers, but they cannot acquire premises. So as the Church of England population dwindles, can churches make efforts to reach out, particularly to the Romanian churches, to allow them to carry on their worship?
Andrew Selous
I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for explaining the situation in his constituency, and I can tell him that the use of church buildings by other Christian denominations is considered a very good use for any redundant Church of England church. The normal procedure is that the views of the local Member of Parliament, the local authority and local residents would be considered, so if there are closed churches in his area, he will have an opportunity to get involved in that process.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Can the hon. Gentleman outline what advice for smaller congregations is in place at this time? Is it his interpretation that the closure of all churches, regardless of size, is optional, or that small congregations can continue to meet, even if they do so in small numbers?
Andrew Selous
As my hon. Friend knows, I speak purely for the Church of England in this place, and the Church of England is following exactly the health advice from the Government. I can tell him and the House that while public worship has been suspended for the time being, churches remain open for prayer and in particular for baptisms, weddings and funerals. Self-distancing will be required. Numbers in churches will be kept to a minimum, and no one self-isolating must attend the ceremony. Parishes are being trained in live-streaming services where they can. Wellbeing and mental health resources will be published soon, and churches are of course encouraged to support the vulnerable who are self-isolating and to continue to support food banks and night shelters in particular.
Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con)
In the light of my hon. Friend’s response to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), does he agree that, although churches are not gathering for worship, they still have a vital role to play in meeting the spiritual, emotional and, indeed, practical needs of our communities at this very difficult time? Although they may not be gathering for services and other meetings, churches are most definitely not closed.
Andrew Selous
I thank my hon. Friend for that important point, and he is exactly right. The Church is much more than just its buildings; it is its people. This is an opportunity for all of us, as Christians, to reach out to others in need—there are many in all our communities—and that is exactly what the Church will be doing over the coming months.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
As public worship is suspended during the coronavirus crisis, what plans does the Church of England have for a national day of prayer?
Andrew Selous
The Archbishop of Canterbury has called for a national day of prayer this Sunday. The Church is particularly keen that all Christians reach out to look after the vulnerable in their communities, as I have just said to my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Steve Double). The archbishop has called for people to put lighted candles in their windows at 7 pm on Sunday as a sign of solidarity with what the nation is currently going through.
Caroline Ansell (Eastbourne) (Con)
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)
The Church of England is pleased that the Government have repeatedly said they will implement in full the recommendations of the Truro review. The Church is in regular contact with the review implementation team. Promoting faith literacy among our diplomats remains work in progress, but we are reassured by continuing work on that aspect of the review.
Caroline Ansell
I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. As the world looks to navigate the challenge of the virus, other challenges clearly remain. Indeed, those challenges can be exacerbated in such circumstances, so what steps is the Church of England taking to work hand in glove with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to tackle anti-Christian persecution across the world?
Andrew Selous
I know my hon. Friend takes a strong interest in this important area. The Church is working closely with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and with the Department for International Development to develop better religious literacy, and the Anglican communion combats persecution against all people of faith, or of no faith, around the world. The Church would welcome a Magnitsky Act to target sanctions against those who persecute people for their religion or belief, in line with recommendation 8 of the review. Quarterly progress statements on the implementation of the review would also be helpful.
Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con)
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)
Almost all couples receive marriage preparation before a Church of England marriage service. Some churches later offer marriage enrichment courses and marriage MOT evenings. The Church is concerned about the fall in marriage rates, as well as about the breakdown of marriages, and a number of churches are taking action to address this issue.
Scott Benton
I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. How does the Church aim to support couples and families in this moment of national crisis, when they are forced to spend more time together and are probably feeling anxious, possibly with several family members unwell?
Andrew Selous
I thank my hon. Friend for that very relevant question. The new marriage and pre-marriage courses released in January are now available online as digital resources that any church can forward to couples in isolation to help them invest in their relationship when they are likely to have more time together, as well as more pressure on them. The pre-marriage course welcomes and is suitable for couples who are not engaged but want to explore what marriage means.
Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab)
This is probably something to come back to once we have got past the immediate crisis, but what progress has been made on liaising with the Department for Education on aligning such pre-marriage education with schools’ relationship education, which has now been made compulsory for all young people? Will that tie up?
Andrew Selous
I thank the hon. Lady, who I know takes a serious interest in these issues, for her question. I can tell her that the Church is very keen to work hand in glove with schools in this important area. Relationship education and relationship support has a very important role in our schools so that we have healthy, respectful marriages and relationships throughout our country.
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
May I suggest that one form of marriage support the Church of England might like to get on with is enacting clause 1 of my Civil Partnerships, Marriages and Deaths (Registration Etc.) Act 2019, which became law a year ago now and will overhaul marriage registration and allow mothers’ names to go on marriage certificates for the first time since 1832? Can he give us a progress report on whether this is at last going to happen?
Andrew Selous
I thank my hon. Friend for that question—he has been very diligent in pursuing this matter for some time. I know it was a particular concern of my predecessor, Caroline Spelman, when she was in this place. I will get my hon. Friend an update on that issue. I will tell Church House about the urgency of the situation, and if he will allow me, I will write to him with specific details.
Coronavirus: Employment Support
(4 years, 8 months ago)
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Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement about support for the wages of employees.
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)
This is an uncertain time for our country, but the Government are clear that they will do whatever it takes to protect our people and businesses from the coronavirus pandemic. On Tuesday, the Chancellor of the Exchequer set out further steps in the Government’s economic response, building on the initial response he outlined in the Budget last week, which included standing behind businesses, small and large, with an unprecedented package of Government backed and guaranteed loans to support businesses through this crisis. I have been working very closely with him and the banks, and they are very clear about their responsibility to make these measures work. The Government have made available an initial £330 billion of guarantees, equivalent to 15% of our GDP. That means that any business that needs cash to pay salaries will be able to access a Government-backed loan on attractive terms. The Government will do whatever it takes to support our economy through this crisis and stand ready to provide further support where necessary. As the Chancellor announced, we will go much further to support people’s financial security working with trade unions and business groups. Following his appearance at the Treasury Select Committee yesterday afternoon, the Chancellor spoke to the trade unions, and he will today be meeting the TUC, the CBI, the British Chambers of Commerce, and the Federation of Small Businesses. This will be with a view to urgently developing new forms of employment support to help protect people’s jobs and incomes through this period. I am sure that you will appreciate, Mr Speaker, that these are unprecedented times. The Chancellor has said that he will look at further steps to help protect jobs and incomes, and he will announce further details in due course.
Greg Clark
For much of yesterday, like many Members of the House, including the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey), with whom I have been working, I was speaking to businesses in our constituencies who are facing a crisis. With revenue collapsing and no knowledge of when normal trading can resume, they see no choice but to lay off workers now. The loan scheme that the Chancellor announced on Tuesday is not enough to prevent that. These businesses have no idea when they will be able to pay back the debts they would incur and it provides no reason to keep staff employed. In fact, the reverse is true because, the smaller the wage bill, the less would have to be borrowed. On Tuesday, the Chancellor promised that there would be employment support, but as each day goes by, businesses are making decisions that will be irreversible and if the Government do not act immediately, large numbers of people will be unemployed and registering them will put huge pressure on the welfare system. Vital skills will be lost and good businesses, which will themselves be the customers and suppliers of other businesses, will cease trading.
There is a straightforward and immediate solution. All employers have an account with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to pay tax for employees through pay-as-you-earn. The monthly wage bill is known to HMRC. Instead of firms paying PAYE to the Government, that flow should now be reversed, with the nation paying the wages of people for the next few weeks if, and only if, they continue to employ their staff. Separate arrangements would need to be made for the self-employed, but at a stroke this would save people’s jobs, save businesses and put an immediate end to the risk of contagion and help to save the economy. This is a crisis the like of which we have not seen for 100 years. It requires a response that is immediate, effective and equal to the scale of the problem. The Chancellor said that he will do whatever it takes, and do so urgently. He now needs to make good on that without delay.
John Glen
I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend for raising this matter. I made clear in my response the urgency of the Government’s deliberations on this—it is absolutely at the top of everything we are doing. Ministers are working flat out, 24/7, to look at all the options.
My right hon. Friend raises the specific anxieties of businesses. I recognise that the package of measures that we have put out—with respect to statutory sick pay, easier access to universal credit and employment and support allowance, the business rates relief, the small business grant facility, the local authority hardship funds and the HMRC forbearance measures—will for some not feel sufficient at this point. However, he will also know from his experience in government that it is very important that when the Government announce the measures that we wish to take to assist with supporting employees, they need to be effective and need to work. So I say to the House and to my right hon. Friend: be in no doubt that all options are being examined. We are looking at models that exist in other jurisdictions and when, very imminently, the Chancellor comes to the House, we want to be sure that what we announce will be effective.
Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)
It is now six and a half weeks since the first cases of coronavirus were reported in the UK. For over a month we have known about the substantial risk that coronavirus poses to the economy and to workers, yet the Government have announced no plan to protect jobs and wages—no full plan for employment support. We are all—all of us—inundated with so many questions, and I have just four of those questions to ask.
People are asking us: why, for example, have Denmark, which had its first coronavirus case on 27 February, and New Zealand, which had its first case on 28 February, four weeks after our first case, both announced comprehensive job protection plans, while we have announced nothing to secure people’s jobs and wages? Given that, the second question is: what consideration has been given to the models in Denmark and Austria, which the Economic Secretary referred to, which involve the Government paying the bulk of people’s wages in exchange for job guarantees?
The third question is: why, when the Chancellor announced the loan guarantee on Tuesday, did the Government not tie those loans into an undertaking from business that no one would be laid off? The fourth question: will the Minister accept that freelancers will need additional support if they do not qualify for statutory sick pay? For example, in the culture sector we have as many as 2 million people, hundreds of thousands of whom may be affected.
The country deserves answers to those questions as a matter of urgency. We will continue to ask these questions not as a matter of political point scoring or ideology, but to ensure that we have a Government response that properly protects the public and matches the scale of the crisis affecting us here and now, not just next week.
John Glen
It is in order for the hon. Gentleman to raise those points, and he is right to draw attention to the experience in Denmark. Throughout this crisis, the Government have acted on the best scientific and health advice, and that has clearly had to move over time. That advice has been challenged and questioned, and the Prime Minister and the Cabinet have made decisions based on the best advice available. Consequent to the health advice, which is clearly motivated to relieve as much pressure as possible on the NHS, there are other issues that we are dealing with urgently, and sequentially we are offering that advice as urgently as we can in different domains.
The hon. Gentleman asked about the Danish experience, and we are looking at the furlough system. We are looking at the proportion of support that is available, and we are also looking at the German system. In the last significant recession that happened in 2009-10—that is broadly the comparator that we could use—only 3% of German firms were helped. We are aware of what is happening in the US, and we are aware of the proposals that have been put forward by various think-tanks this morning. We are looking thoroughly at all those options, but it is very important that we have a system that delivers the support that is required to employers.
We have extended the coronavirus business interruption loan to up to £5 million. It is clear that there will be no interest payable in the first six months and no fees, and obviously we expect businesses to use that to support their employees during this time.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
To assist the House, I can say that I expect this to run until around 11.15.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)
I commend my hon. Friend and I agree with him—that is something that the Government should be moving on now, but there is something else the Government could do literally today. Universal credit has three basic levers that can all be pulled now enormously to help people who are in work. First, the taper could be lowered dramatically at this stage, which would push the floor right up underneath people in work at the moment, allowing them to fall back on that if employers cannot deal with them. Secondly, Ministers could change benefit rates, allowing a greater expanse of money to flow to claimants: that could be done today. The third area where my hon. Friend could act is to look at the waiting time and reduce that almost immediately. Those three things were always built into the system for flexibility and they can be done today. They can be delivered within days by a Department that already has the ability to do that while he gets on with the other facilities.
John Glen
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, who has unrivalled experience in this area. He makes some very reasonable points, and we are looking very carefully at all the options. As I said earlier, when we have decided—very imminently—the Chancellor will make announcements to this House first.
David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)
In recent days, the Chancellor has already outlined support for business, which the SNP has welcomed. In Scotland, that support has been passed on in full by our Finance Secretary, Kate Forbes. However, I remain concerned that not enough support is being mobilised for sole traders, freelancers and the self-employed. Today though, our focus is rightly on people, many of whom are already self-isolating or moving to work from home, if indeed they can. But bills are still coming in and rent payments are being sought, and so I welcome the news that some support will be put in place, for example, for payment for energy bills. The question is who is eligible for that, and will that go far enough. Will the Government use the tax system to put thousands of pounds in people’s pockets by way of an emergency universal basic income? Will the Government extend statutory sick pay to the 2 million people who earn less than £118 a week and benchmark it to at least the real living wage?
Firms are already starting to make staff redundant, but we need to stem the flow of that immediately, and today. The Government should introduce a statutory retention scheme to provide firms with financial support to keep staff in employment during this uncertain time.
Now more than ever, our social security system needs to kick in. To protect families impacted by hardship and strengthen automatic stabilisers that support demands in the economy, does the Minister agree that the main adult rate of out of work support in universal credit and other benefits, including carer’s allowance, should rise by a third to £100 per week?
We are in the midst of a national emergency the likes of which I have never seen before. How this generation of politicians responds to the crisis will be how history judges us. During the financial crisis of 2008, no expense was spared to bail out the banks, so today with the coronavirus outbreak we must similarly be prepared to bail out household budgets at this time of economic crisis. It calls for us all to rise to the occasion.
John Glen
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. It is important that the Government do whatever it takes in these circumstances. He raises a number of specific points. He will be familiar with the changes we have made in terms of access to statutory sick pay and eligibility starting much sooner; that commenced from 13 March. He will be aware that, to make that easier, there is now no need to have a GP note. He makes number of points on universal credit and changing the eligibility there. Advances are available online; the minimum income floor has been temporarily released. He also makes a number of points about freelancers and the self-employed, which the Government are clear about.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned the universal basic income. The Government are looking at that, but the question whether it will help the most affected most urgently is one we have to consider. Many of us in this House, for example, would not require such support. We have to ensure that we target it at the most vulnerable.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
I have had a lot of emails on this subject, so may I ask the Minister again how the Government are going to support freelancers and the self-employed? They are desperately worried.
John Glen
My hon. and gallant Friend is right to raise that. We have changed the rules on access to employment support allowance and sick pay. It will depend on individual circumstances. We have also released funds to local authorities for hardship relief. Further advice on that will be given tomorrow by the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
I very much agree with the proposals just made by the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith). It is particularly important that the advances paid to people claiming universal credit become non-repayable for those affected by the crisis. The Minister mentioned the suspension of the minimum income floor for self-employed people—a welcome announcement made by the Chancellor in the Budget—but it appears to relate only to people who are directly affected by covid-19, whereas many of those suffering at the moment are not themselves ill but are affected by the wider changes in the economy. Will the Economic Secretary confirm that the lifting of the minimum income floor will apply also to those who are not directly affected? Will we know the details of the employment support package—I am glad the Government are working on that—before this weekend?
John Glen
The right hon. Gentleman makes some specific points essentially about the consequential effects on different groups of employees who are affected. I cannot comment on the details of that. As for the timing of the employment support announcement, we are working on it as quickly as we can. There is no timetable or specific date because we have got to get it right. We are working as urgently as possible, but I cannot tell him the precise moment at this point.
Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
I commend my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) for his urgent question and endorse everything he said. Those of us who are not in the engine room of Government are being told by our constituents that, welcome though Tuesday’s package was, it is simply not going to be enough. When diehards such as my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) and Allister Heath of The Daily Telegraph are lining up for far more radical measures than the Government have yet announced, the Government must take note. May I urge the Government to say something today to give people assurance that the help will come?
John Glen
I thank my right hon. Friend for his observations. He is right, but there is no sense that the Government are saying that what we have announced is the last announcement we are going to make. It is a question of making sure that when we announce measures, they will be effective in meeting the needs that we know exist. All of us, across the House, will have been inundated with emails from concerned individuals and businesses. We are taking that on board and acting as swiftly as we can. The points raised today are directly informing the nature of our response.
Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
I understand that this is very difficult for the Government and I am sympathetic, but this is about real people’s lives. The Treasury’s natural approach—being cautious and wanting to stress-test everything—is not appropriate in these circumstances. The right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) suggested some really good ideas. Why can they not just be implemented today?
John Glen
I understand the hon. Lady’s frustration. It is totally reasonable for Members of this House to be extremely concerned in the absence of the announcement, but it would be even worse, I would suggest, if we made ad hoc announcements when different Government Departments were not quite ready to implement those effectively. We are talking about an unprecedented crisis, and therefore we will need to take unprecedented measures. It is important that we do that as swiftly as possible, but it is also important that we do it as effectively as possible.
Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)
I thank my hon. Friend for his recent announcements, and I absolutely understand that we are living in unprecedented times. In my constituency, hospitality and hotels are obviously huge employers. Is there any scope for the suspension of national insurance contributions, which would really help many of the chains, and particularly the smaller hotels? From speaking to those at the Goring hotel this week, I know that they are very concerned, and they are now offering their hotel to the Government for anything they need—for hospitals or for employees. Suspending NI contributions would be great.
John Glen
I thank my hon. Friend for her suggestions. Obviously, we have made a specific package of interventions available in the retail, leisure and hospitality sectors. We also have the grant facility at a high level for those sectors. She makes a reasonable point, and we will look at it—and we are looking at it—very carefully.
Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD)
I was here on Tuesday night when the Chancellor made his statement, and there can be no doubt what the attitude of the House was at that time. It was that the package of loans and other measures announced by the Chancellor on that occasion would not be sufficient. It would not be sufficient for those who are relying on benefits, it would not be sufficient for those who are already finding themselves out of work, and it would not be sufficient for the self-employed. Here we are two days later, and the Minister is telling us that there simply has not been time to consider these things. This is urgent, and we really must have action now. Why is it taking so long?
John Glen
Every day, Ministers across all Departments are working on different aspects of the package. Yesterday my right hon. Friend the Housing, Communities and Local Government Secretary brought forward some measures for renters. We also have the three-month relief for mortgage holders where they need it, and for buy-to-let mortgage holders. There is more work being done urgently to give clarity on the elements that Members of the House are raising, but, as I said earlier, it is a question of making sure that when these measures are announced, they are going to be effective and can be delivered efficiently.
Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)
The feedback I am receiving is that many businesses will have difficulty in accessing Government loans because of restrictions they have in granting additional security to a new lender. With that in mind, may I urge the Government to support payroll costs far more directly, as other European Governments are doing? This is the way to avoid large-scale redundancies.
John Glen
My hon. Friend refers to the loans. I was meeting the banks last night to make sure that these loans are accessible. The criteria for issuing them are based on the solvency of businesses prior to this crisis arising. It is absolutely clear that the banks see they have a massive responsibility to make this scheme work. That term sheet is being finalised; it may already have been finalised this morning. The banks are now working on making sure that that will be available through all their call centres and branches. He makes the suggestion of a supplementary measure, and we are looking at these things very carefully.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
A constituent of mine works in a residential home for adults with learning disabilities. Her son’s school will be closed from Monday. She does not know whether she is considered a key worker, and even if she is, as seems obvious, her son has respiratory problems, so she is uncertain whether she wants to send him to school. Her employer says she will not be paid and is not even entitled to statutory sick pay if she cannot come into work because of childcare. What should she do? Where is the clear advice and guidance, and where is the helpline for the thousands of other constituents of mine and of every single Member in this House? Where can they get answers, because they are so worried?
John Glen
The hon. Lady makes a reasonable point about the concerns that are being raised. That is why the Cabinet Office will give further advice today on key workers and the support that will be given. I recognise that yesterday’s announcement on schools will be a significant disruption to the lives of many of our citizens. It is very important that we put in place urgently clarity about who is involved—who is designated in those categories—and the support that will be available. I will ensure that her point, which I am sure reflects the views of many, gets to the Cabinet Office after this session.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Given that the suggestions of my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) could be implemented so speedily, will the Minister undertake to try immediately after this session to get an answer on whether they should be implemented?
Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)
The very essence of the hospitality industry is to provide social contact. Does the Minister understand the real anger of many in that industry that the Government have given advice to their customers but not to them? If the Government believe premises should close, they should say so, and they should accept the consequences of paying people whose idleness is enforced because of a contribution to a public health emergency. What is so hard to understand is that the system for doing that is staring the Government in the face. It already exists. It is called Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. That is a system for taking money out of wage packets every month and giving it to the Government; now, it should be put into reverse to put money into the pockets of those employees.
John Glen
The hon. Gentleman is right to express the deep frustration of people in that sector, and I am sure his words resonate across the House. We have put in resources for 2,000 people from HMRC to take calls for bespoke solutions to deal with some of those issues. He is right that there is also an issue in terms of access to insurance. I was on a conference call with the insurance industry to clarify that where insurance has been taken out, that will be effective. However, he is perfectly right that more work needs to be done, and I have been very clear that more will be forthcoming imminently.
Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con)
I thank the Minister for the measures that he has already taken to help the self-employed, but my constituency has the highest number of self-employed in the country, so will he elaborate on what tax incentives, or tax advice or support, can be given to the self-employed at this time, particularly during April over the end of the financial year?
John Glen
As I said to the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard), people have access to an HMRC support line, which is properly manned and up and running. That should give them bespoke support for their circumstances. I have referred to the package of other measures that the Chancellor announced a few days ago.
Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)
Charities such as Faith in Families in my constituency are really nervous that they will not be able to pay their wages. Without staff, they cannot deliver the projects for which they are applying for funding, which would provide food and childcare facilities in very deprived areas. That is necessary now; it will become essential in the future. What can the Government do to help those charities?
John Glen
The hon. Lady is right with respect to the role that charities play across our communities, binding communities together and working closely with local authorities. My colleague in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government is working on these matters, and we will make further announcements shortly.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
I echo the calls for urgent support for British tourism, which I know the Minister will be familiar with in his constituency. In the Bournemouth area, tourism is worth more than £1 billion and directly employs 17,000 people. I received a letter from David Bailey, who is chair of the Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole destination management board. He talks about lay-offs happening right now, as we speak, affecting the future of businesses. He asks whether it would be better if, rather than handing out benefit claims, the Government provided salaries immediately. That would mean the industry could retain the skills that will be needed to spearhead the economic recovery and would reduce the number of businesses that cease to trade. Will the Government consider that?
John Glen
My right hon. Friend makes some very reasonable points about the tourism sector just down the road from my constituency. The issue of what we do to support sectors that are directly and immediately affected by the action we have had to take will be at the front of our minds as we examine what employment support to put in place.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
After six and a half weeks, when we knew we might reach this stage, it is hard to understand why the Government have no idea what they are going to do to pay the wages of those who are being laid off. A whole tranche of people are going to be laid off now, and more industries will lay people off next week and the week after. If the Government do not act now, they will not be able to retrieve the situation. How have we got to the point where the Government have not got a clue?
John Glen
I accept the hon. Gentleman’s frustration, but characterising the Government as not having a clue misrepresents the situation considerably. There are a large number of issues that we need to examine, and we are doing so at pace. We will make further announcements to address those that have been raised in the House today. We have sequentially done more by the day, reflecting the evolving nature of this crisis and the steps we have had to take, based on health and scientific advice. I understand that the hon. Gentleman is not happy with the Government’s announcements so far, but more will be coming.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
This weekend, pubs, clubs, restaurants and other retail outlets will be considering whether to close on an almost permanent basis, and the people employed in them have an uncertain future. However, most of them are relatively young and mobile, and they are able to offer help and assistance to the weak and vulnerable. Could we not guarantee loans to those outlets on the condition that those people continue to be paid and that they then become part of a volunteer force to help the weak and vulnerable at this time of crisis?
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
I do wish Ministers would stop using hyperbole such as “whatever it takes”, when they do not follow through sufficiently quickly. Will the Government extend SSP to support all workers and pay it at the rate of the real living wage straightaway?
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Many of the “just about managing” are not managing, and there will be many more of them in the next few days. The last thing we need at this time is an over-engineered new system. As a humble Back Bencher, I have heard many good ideas in the Chamber this morning—particularly from my right hon. Friends the Members for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) and for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) and the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms). If those three right hon. Members are not in No. 11 for a meeting later today, I will be really disappointed. We have had the architect of universal credit in the Chamber, and he has given the Government the answer to their problem. Please can we get a move on?
John Glen
I take the challenge from my hon. Friend in the spirit in which it was intended. There is no sense that the Treasury is trying to over-engineer anything. We are not trying to restrain spending for the sake of restraining it. We want to bring forward an effective package of measures that effectively meets the needs of the most vulnerable. My hon. Friend makes the reasonable point that a number of colleagues of great seniority have raised significant points of interest, and I will ensure that their contributions are heard at the heart of this process today.
Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab)
Dental practices are at high risk of spreading coronavirus, yet there was nothing for them in the financial package on Tuesday, which means they have to stay open, with an increased risk of spreading coronavirus. Will the Government give assurances that they will cover fixed-price dental costs so that dentists can close and provide only urgent care?
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
Many of the Government’s schemes have to be delivered through retail banks, which means people and businesses calling already overloaded call centres and going into retail branches—where they exist—which might restrict hours over the coming days. Most banks and most large private sector companies in this country that rely on some phone contact have resilience and contingency places dotted around the country that have pop-up call centres in times of crisis. Could the Government deploy those to ensure that desperate immediate-need calls from businesses and individuals are dealt with as quickly as possible?
John Glen
My hon. Friend makes a very good point about the resilience required in banks at this difficult time. I discussed that with the heads of the banks last night and over the previous two days. We need to ensure that the terms of these loans are effective in allowing people to access them swiftly and we need to ensure that the banks can ramp up the accessibility of their specialist advisers. I have been given assurances that that will be in place.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
So many of my constituents are caught up in this, like those of other hon. Members, and I have constituents who have no recourse to public funds, so when they are unable to work they cannot claim benefits. Many are freelancers and people who are self-employed and running small businesses. None of the packages the Government have announced help them so far. The Minister has had to be dragged here to answer an urgent question and has nothing he can say that will comfort our constituents. I think we all recognise that it is difficult, but could he not even give us a clue about the general direction of thinking from the Government? Will he raise the local housing allowance? Will the Government ensure that those with no recourse to public funds get funded? Will they stop this ridiculous loan system, which will never get paid back? Businesses will go bankrupt before they can pay it, and they are laying off staff now.
John Glen
The hon. Lady raises a number of sensible points. We are looking at many of them. I reassure her that we will make further announcements very soon. Yes, we are looking at the ideas raised. We are looking at other jurisdictions. But in some cases we have a very different set of processes and IT systems behind some of these Government Department distribution mechanisms. I know that that is very technical, but the bottom line is that we need to ensure that when we introduce something, it delivers.
Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)
I support strongly the ideas on the universal employment retention package proposed by several right hon. Friends, and I hope that the Government take it on board to prevent a health crisis becoming an economic disaster. In addition, briefly, rateable value capped at £51,000 is too low for medium-sized tourism employers such as the Seaview Hotel. Secondly, we need clarity in the system because my chamber of commerce still does not know how to apply. Thirdly, we need a package for the voluntary sector. West Wight sports centre is a world-leading sailing academy and a major employer on my patch. We need either a voluntary sector package or a universal employment retention programme.
John Glen
I thank my hon. Friend for his points; he raises a number of interesting ideas. He is absolutely right about the voluntary sector needing support. As I have indicated, there will be a package coming and different Departments are working together to make this as effective and comprehensive as possible. His constituency has a number of issues regarding the hospitality and leisure sector, and I am very aware of the representations he has been making to Government over the previous few days.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
Letting many people get into rent or mortgage arrears or asking businesses to take on debt are not the answers. They are just going to make the crisis worse—[Hon. Members: “And longer.”] Yes, thank you. Every business, every employee, every self-employed person and everybody in the third sector needs to know that their living costs will be covered. The Government need to show the urgency that the Minister talks about and they need to show it today. Will the Chancellor come back today and make a statement on how they will deliver this?
John Glen
The hon. Gentleman is perfectly right that we need a comprehensive package that deals with businesses, the voluntary sector and individual employees of different categories. We are looking very carefully at the best way to do that, in addition to the significant package of measures we have introduced. I feel his frustration and I will take all these points back and make sure that they are addressed.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
The greatest difficulty for the Government in this fast-deteriorating situation of no one’s making is the speed of response. My worry is that the business interruption loans package will be too clunky for most small and medium-sized businesses, and the cash grants will take too long to get to businesses before decisions are made about jobs. Will the Minister look closely at the recommendation of our right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark)? If that were put in place, some of the recommendations made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) on universal credit would not be so important.
John Glen
I note the point that my hon. Friend makes about the clunkiness of existing measures, and obviously we are looking at the point raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells. My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) refers to the accessibility of the loans. The Government guarantee to the banks through the British Business Bank is in order to provide a massive incentive to making the loans available to solvent businesses as quickly as possible, but I hear his concerns, and they are reflected in the design and in conversations that we are having with the banks.
Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)
Does the Minister not understand that a universal minimum income guarantee does exactly what it says on the tin? It will provide that minimum level playing field for tenants and their landlords, for business owners and their employees; it will provide everyone with a minimum level of assurance so that they can have some certainty in this time of uncertainty.
Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)
Like many Members, I have been fielding calls for the past 10 days from businesses that are sitting on the wire, wondering whether their futures are safeguarded. Has the Minister looked at the possibility of a VAT rebate for businesses that are desperately trying to hold on to their employees to ensure that they have a future? Will he please look into that, and will he also ensure that we have greater clarification of whether pubs are open or closed, because that is causing much greater distress than it needs to cause?
John Glen
My hon. Friend makes a reasonable point about the hospitality sector, and a very credible suggestion with respect to VAT. Across the benefits system and the tax system, we are looking at the optimisation of interventions to support the most vulnerable and most affected at this time, and to give reassurance to the whole country. We will urgently bring forward measures to address the concerns that he has raised.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
Individuals are losing their jobs now—they are in desperate need now. Andrew Brown, a freelance graphic designer in my constituency, contacted me this morning; his business has folded overnight, and he cannot apply for any grants because he works from home. What does he do in that situation? The Minister talks about the great package that was announced the other night, but councils still do not have the guidance to get that money out to businesses. I urge him to get that out as a matter of urgency, because this morning Durham County Council told me that it will not be available until the weekend, and that is too late.
Several hon. Members rose—
Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con)
There are more micro-businesses in Buckinghamshire than in any other county in the country. I pay tribute to Buckinghamshire Business First, which is working extremely hard to try to support them, but may I urge my hon. Friend to take the unique needs of micro-businesses into account in the measures that he is developing?
Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)
Our farmers, crofters and fishers are crucially producing our food, but the situation has rocked those sectors to their foundations. Will the Minister outline what specific considerations are being given to supporting those sectors, so that they can continue their vital work?
John Glen
The hon. Lady will know that a large number of the grants and loans schemes will be accessible to all sectors, as well as grants from the local authority. Comprehensive advice went out to all hon. Members last night setting out all that information, and there will be further announcements. Sector-specific issues are best addressed through the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, but I hope the announcements that we have made will give some interim comfort to her constituents at this difficult time.
Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)
I am afraid that it is quite evident that the Government have lost support and confidence across the Chamber, and that is echoed by the markets. We have seen a 5% drop in sterling, which will translate into higher food and energy prices for already hard-pressed households. In Warwick and Leamington, we are losing jobs and good businesses. Will the Minister support the comments of the right hon. Members for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) and for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) and introduce some form of universal income support to restore both the supply and demand side?
John Glen
I acknowledge the point on the minimum income guarantee, which I have responded to previously. On co-ordination with the Bank of England, we have worked with the Financial Conduct Authority to introduce better forbearance measures for the banks so that they can act effectively and use their flexibilities. Obviously the bridging facility that the Bank of England has brought forward for bigger businesses is also important.
Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC)
Will the Minister assure us that the package of measures that the Government intend to bring forward will offer support to the self-employed, sole traders and freelancers who may not themselves be ill but who may have already lost work due to the economic disruption of covid-19?
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
May I raise a specific question with the Minister? Childminders and childcare providers in my constituency tell me that, although they have insurance if they have to close their businesses as a result of a notifiable disease, which covid-19 clearly now is, insurance companies are saying that they will not provide the cover, because it does not appear on the list of notifiable diseases. Will the Minister take that up urgently with the industry?
John Glen
I have taken that up urgently with the industry. Businesses take out business relief, and then about 5% take out insurance for non-specified diseases, and 5% for specified diseases. We have made sure that for those that have taken insurance for specified diseases, that will be triggered by the Government’s announcement this week, and the other package of measures will support businesses that do not have that insurance. We cannot retrofit contractual obligations to insurance companies.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
The Minister is a decent man, but there is a feeling across the Chamber that Treasury Ministers, and the Chancellor in particular, find it difficult to empathise with the situation that people find themselves in and do not speak human very well. I appeal to Ministers to show a bit more understanding of the predicament facing freelancers and the self-employed who have lost all their work, and perhaps take on board simple ideas, such as that of the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark). Reverse the polarity—it usually works.
John Glen
I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman wishes to criticise the tone of my response. I am clear that this is an unprecedented crisis. The Government have made a series of announcements, and will be making further announcements. A range of sensible suggestions have been made, many of which we are already examining urgently.
In response to specific questions about technical matters, I have had to use quite complex and unfamiliar constructions. If I did not do that, I would not be answering the question. If I used too many soundbites, I would be criticised in another way. We will do everything we can to take on board the questions that have been raised today to come forward with a comprehensive package that all our constituents will see as effective.
Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD)
I asked the Government 10 days ago whether they would guarantee the wages, rents and business rates of small businesses. The measures that have been announced are riddled with problems. Businesses in St Albans tell me that they do not qualify for the secured loans or the grants up to £25,000, and they are being told that business interruption insurance will be payable only after the event when the insurance company can see how much they have lost. That is not good enough. Businesses are saying that Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs must be used, not the benefits system; that they need grants, not loans; and that wages for all must be guaranteed, and guaranteed today.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
Can I ask about people who use registered childminders who now will not be able to do so? Quite understandably, childminders are still asking for the fees, because otherwise they will be short. We now have people who cannot go to work because they have to look after their children, but if they are self-employed, they cannot get money either. What support is available to help them?
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
Can I say to the Minister as constructively as possible that his Government’s economic response is undermining the public health response? Job losses are contagious. Fear of economic hardship will spread the virus. The technical details can wait, but he needs to say now—today—that in principle he will guarantee the incomes of everyone at a level that provides security.
John Glen
We will do what it takes to support workers who are in distress. We have brought forward a package of measures, some of which will be imminently delivered, such as the unprecedented loan scheme. We have also added a number of grant schemes available through local authorities and reliefs from business rates, and additional measures will be coming imminently.
Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Ind)
The Links market is the largest street fair in Europe and has been happening every spring for the last 700 years in Kirkcaldy. Unfortunately, as a result of coronavirus, the Scottish section of the Showmen’s Guild of Great Britain has had to take the reluctant decision to postpone the event this year. That is going to cause significant hardship for their members. It will also have a significant impact on the local economy because it attracts many visitors. What support will be available to get them through this difficult time and preserve their important fair?
John Glen
The hon. Gentleman highlights what many colleagues are going to experience: events that have been planned and have been going on for many, many decades will be cancelled as a result of what is happening. The package of measures that we have announced will be accessible to many of those people. The sectors that are involved will sometimes have sector-specific packages, where there has been a direct effect as a consequence of Government decisions, and we are urgently working on a broader package with respect to employees.
Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab)
I am sure that the Minister will have heard the cross-party consensus here. If the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin) and I are in complete agreement, something is happening, so on behalf of the 130,000 people of Bristol West, I plead with him to take every single one of these suggestions straight back to the Treasury and to put them into practice today.
Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP)
The Minister is very keen to point out that he understands the frustration of Members and their constituents. Can I assist him by pointing out that it is no longer frustration, but desperation? What we need are not loans; we need grants. Businesses in Angus are asking me why they should take out a loan to provide incomes for people who cannot work, through no fault of their own. That looks dangerously like welfare, and delivering welfare is the responsibility of Government. When will the Government deliver?
John Glen
I understand the use of the word “desperation”—I recognise that, and that is why we are working urgently to have a package of measures, and extend that package of measures, so that there are a range of options to businesses of different sizes in different situations, based on their sector and the risks that they face.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
The first coronavirus death has been confirmed in Northern Ireland, and I wish, through the House, to convey our commiserations to the family.
I have been contacted by a school bus driver on a zero-hours contract who normally works 45 hours a week but has now been told that there is no work for him until further notice. Does his employer not have an obligation to pay his wages, and the wages of others in the same boat? What is the Minister’s message to help this employee?
John Glen
I am very happy to look at that individual’s circumstance. We have made interventions to provide advances of ESA and to remove the minimum income floor. It is clear that we will need to do more to support employees who have been specifically affected by the tough decisions we have taken. I am very sorry to hear of the first death in Northern Ireland.
Windrush Lessons Learned Review
(4 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Priti Patel)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a statement on the long-awaited Windrush lessons learned review.
I dedicate this statement to the Windrush generation. I have personally been deeply moved by reading this report. Given the national significance of this issue, I have published the review immediately. I thank Wendy Williams and her team for the important work they have undertaken.
The Windrush lessons learned review gives voice to members of the Windrush generation who legally arrived in the UK to help rebuild post-war Britain. These men and women built their lives and their home in Britain. These people have done so much for this country, from staffing the NHS to rebuilding Britain. These are the very people who worked hard, paid their taxes and had every right to be in this country.
They contributed to our communities, culture and society, helping our public services and our economy to thrive. They made our country stronger, more vibrant and more successful as a nation. That is why we were all shocked to discover that they and their families were subject to such insensitive treatment by the very country they called home.
As this review makes clear, some members of the Windrush generation suffered terrible injustices, spurred by institutional failings, spanning successive Governments over several decades. That includes
“ignorance and thoughtlessness towards the…race and the history of the Windrush generation”.
Today’s publication is part of an ongoing mission to put this right and ensure such events can never happen again, as there were far too many victims of Windrush.
Paulette Wilson was detained in an immigration removal centre and warned that she faced removal after living in the UK for 50 years. She spent decades contributing to the UK—working for a time in this very House—yet she was treated like a second-class citizen.
Junior Green had been in the UK for more than 60 years, raising children and grandchildren here, but after a holiday to Jamaica he was refused re-entry despite holding a passport confirming his right to be in the UK. The injustice he suffered was compounded when, because of this action, he missed his mother’s funeral.
Lives were ruined and families were torn apart. Now, an independent review has suggested that the Home Office’s
“institutional ignorance and thoughtlessness towards the issue of race and the history of the Windrush generation”
contributed to it. This is simply unacceptable.
I have heard people speak of the decision making as a process that grinds people down to the extent that it makes them want to give up. I have heard people speak of being dismissed, and being labelled as a group of people who just do not matter and whose voice on this issue is irrelevant.
People have spoken to me of the indignity and inhumanity they still feel today following the experience of being made to feel unwelcome in their own country. They have described their experiences as unthinkable and unimaginable. However, there are people across the UK and even some Members of this House—including myself and the shadow Home Secretary—for whom this is unfortunately all too relatable.
There are lessons to learn for the Home Office, but also for society as a whole. Despite the diverse and open nature of our country, too many people still feel that they may be treated differently because of who they are or where their parents came from. Today’s report, which suggests that in the Home Office there was an
“institutional ignorance and thoughtlessness towards the issue of race and the history of the Windrush generation”
is worrying for us all.
In her report, Wendy Williams is clear that lessons must be learned at all levels and by all political parties. She describes a set of measures that evolved under Labour, coalition and Conservative Governments. Those measures cover decades. She states that Ministers did not sufficiently question unintended consequences and that officials should and could have done more. We must all look to ourselves. We must all do better at walking in other people’s shoes. We must all take responsibility for the failings that led to the unimaginable suffering of this generation.
Let me be clear, Mr Speaker. Nothing I can say today will undo the pain, suffering and misery inflicted on the Windrush generation. What I can do is say that on behalf of this and successive Governments, I am truly sorry for the actions that spanned decades. I am sorry that people’s trust has been betrayed. We will continue to do everything possible to ensure that the Home Office protects, supports and listens to every single part of the community it serves.
Action has already begun. In recent months, I have met and listened to people whose lives were shattered. Since 2018, we have launched measures to put right the wrongs caused to individual members of the Windrush generation. We have taken action through practical measures to give those affected the assistance, certainty, reassurance and support they need. The Commonwealth citizens taskforce goes into communities to help and support people secure their legal status. More than 11,700 people have been granted a form of documentation that confirms their right to remain in the UK and guarantees their access to public services. Our vulnerable persons team has provided support to nearly 1,400 people, with approximately 120 people still receiving support. The team has supported more than 360 people to secure access to benefits.
To go some way in addressing the hardship suffered, the Home Office launched the Windrush compensation scheme. The scheme was designed in close consultation with members of the community and Martin Forde QC. Collectively, they have developed a compensation scheme that is straightforward to use and addresses the bespoke personal circumstances and needs of every applicant, with dedicated caseworkers assessing claims as quickly as possible. There is no cap on payments, dozens of which have already been made, and we encourage more applications. Those who are eligible will receive full compensation.
More than 100 community events have taken place so far. That includes more than 30 compensation scheme events across the country, from Southampton to Glasgow and Cardiff to Coventry. However, there are still people out there in need of our help who we have not yet reached. That is why in February, I extended the length of the compensation scheme by a further two years so that claims can be submitted until April 2023. I set up the Windrush stakeholder advisory group to rebuild links with communities to ensure that they are supported through compensation, but also to rebuild the trust that has been broken.
Today, I can confirm we will launch an expanded cross-Government Windrush working group to develop programmes to improve the lives of those affected. That may be through employment programmes, dedicated mental health support and specialist education and training schemes. To ensure that people know about the taskforce, the Windrush compensation scheme will have a dedicated communications campaign promoting the scheme. We will also open a £500,000 fund for grassroots organisations to promote these schemes, including provisions for specialist advice services. I would like to extend my personal thanks to Martin Forde QC for his support with the creation of the scheme.
I want to put on record my thanks to my predecessors—my right hon. Friends the Members for Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid) and for Maidenhead (Mrs May), and the former Member for Hastings and Rye—who worked hard to understand and undo the suffering when these issues first came to light, and other Members, including the right hon. Members for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) and for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), who shone a necessary light on this injustice. I also want to thank the thousands of civil servants at the Home Office and across Government who work tirelessly every single day in challenging and demanding jobs to keep the public and our country safe. Whether on the frontline or working to develop policies for the future, their commitment to create a safer country for us all is commendable.
Since these injustices were brought to light, civil servants have used every endeavour to right the wrongs, giving people their correct status and supporting them in their financial compensation claims. However, it would be wrong for the Department to ignore Wendy Williams’s finding that the Home Office’s
“institutional ignorance and thoughtlessness towards the issue of race and the history of the Windrush generation”
contributed to this. This is not something that can be resolved with an apology or compensation.
I will review the recommendations that Wendy Williams makes in relation to the way the Home Office operates as an organisation. I will continue to look closely at its leadership, culture, practices and the way it views the communities it serves. Over the coming months, myself and Matthew Rycroft—the new permanent secretary—and the second permanent secretary will work together with our dedicated staff at all levels to reflect on the recommendations, including those relating to compliant environment policies and cultural change. Fundamentally, I want to make the Home Office a better place to work. That will include a clarification of the Department’s purpose, mission and values, putting at its heart fairness, dignity and respect. We will put people before process.
The publication of this review is a small but vital step towards ensuring that the Home Office is trusted by all the people it serves. I encourage anyone who thinks that they have been affected by the Windrush scandal or who requires support or assistance to come forward. I will bring forward a detailed formal response in the next six months, as Wendy Williams has recommended, representing a new chapter for the Home Office. Let me assure the House that everyone at the Home Office will be asking the difficult questions needed to ensure that these circumstances can never arise again. I commend this statement to the House.
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)
We meet as a House of Commons at a time of unprecedented national crisis—a national crisis that none of us has seen before in our lifetime—but I am sure the Home Secretary will agree that we should not allow the fact that the review has been published at a time of national crisis to mean that the review and its recommendations are buried. The Windrush generation deserve better than that.
As the Home Secretary will know, the recommendations in this review have three main elements: that the Home Office must acknowledge the wrong that has been done; that it must open itself up to external scrutiny; and that it must change its culture, to recognise that migration and wider Home Office policy is about people, and whatever the objective, it should always be rooted in humanity.
The Home Secretary will be aware that the review points out:
“Some ministers and senior officials spoken to in the course of this review do not appear to accept the full extent of the injustice done to the Windrush generation”,
and that they say
“the situation was unforeseen, unforeseeable and therefore unavoidable.”
More than one Member of this House foresaw the consequences of the hostile environment legislation years ago.
The review goes on to say that other Ministers and senior officials
“have expressed the view that the responsibility really lay with the Windrush generation themselves to sort out their status.”
Will the Home Secretary agree that, whichever politicians or officials said those things—Wendy Williams quotes them in the review—they were disgraceful things to say?
The review has many important and detailed recommendations. I cannot touch on them all, but I wish to draw the Home Secretary’s attention to a few. The review wants the Department to publish a comprehensive improvement plan within six months. Is the Home Secretary willing to assure the House that there will be such a plan? The review asks that the Home Office run a programme of reconciliation events with members of the Windrush generation. Does the Home Secretary commit to that?
Very importantly, the review says that the Home Office must look beyond the Caribbean, because persons from all over the Commonwealth who came to this country at that time would have been caught up in the same issues that the Windrush generation were caught up in. In fact, persons from the Caribbean are as anxious as anybody that persons from other parts of the Commonwealth—Africa, south Asia—also get the fairness and justice that they deserve. Is the Home Secretary willing to commit to reviewing data on other Commonwealth cases, as well as those from the Caribbean nations?
Is the Home Secretary willing to commit commission officials to undertake a full review and evaluation of the hostile or compliant environment policy and its measures individually and serially? Such a full review should assess whether they were effective and proportionate. Given the risks inherent in the policy that are set out in the report, the review must be carried out scrupulously, designed in partnership with external experts and published in a timely way.
Sadly, the Home Secretary did not feel able to share a copy of the review with the Opposition Front-Bench team. I have never before been in the situation in which a Home Secretary brought forward a major report of this kind and did not want to share it with the Opposition Front-Bench team—obviously that would have been under complete discretion. As it happens, I had to go into the Home Secretary’s office in Parliament to obtain the copy I have. It is almost as if the Home Secretary did not want full parliamentary scrutiny.
This is a detailed report that deserves detailed scrutiny. It is coming forward at a very difficult time for the nation as a whole, but the Opposition will be coming back to the issues raised in the report, because the Windrush scandal was not just a mistake; it was not just something that happened because people did not read the rules properly. As Wendy Williams points out, it was rooted in the systemic culture of the Home Office and the failure of Ministers to listen to the warnings they were given about what the effects of the hostile environment could be on people perfectly legally entitled to be here.
I have heard the Home Secretary’s apology, but people will believe her apology when they see her genuinely seek to implement the recommendations in this review. My mother was a member of the Windrush generation, so I know that one of the aspects of the Windrush generation was that they really believed they were British. They had no reason not to believe that they were British when they came here with their passports, UK and Colonies.
Let me assure the Home Secretary that, for the Windrush generation, it is not necessarily the money, or the loss, or the inconvenience, or even the tragedy of being deported. It is the insult to people who always believed that they were British, and who came here to rebuild this country, but who, because of the insensitivity and the structural issues in the Home Office, were treated in an utterly disgraceful and humiliating way. The Home Secretary should be assured that we will return to these issues until the Windrush generation gets the justice to which it is entitled.
Priti Patel
First of all, let me say in response to the right hon. Lady’s point about the publication of the review that this is an independent review. I received a copy of it yesterday from Wendy Williams and I have, through all the due process in the House, laid the review this morning, in a timely way, in the Vote Office, using all the procedural routes that are normal to this House. I know that the right hon. Lady came to my office and picked up a copy, but copies were also available earlier on this morning—we checked that, and as she knows, I also gave her sight of my statement earlier, prior to coming to the Chamber.
I made a commitment to publish the report as soon as possible. It came to me yesterday, and I have done that, primarily because of the nature of the response and the concerns that this House has consistently and rightly raised when it comes to the Windrush generation. That, in my view, was the right thing to do, and I would not have been able to publish the review any earlier, because obviously it came to me from Wendy Williams yesterday. The timing of the report was decided by Wendy Williams, as the independent reviewer. Let me assure the right hon. Lady that I discussed with Wendy Williams yesterday how I will work with her on the recommendations going forward. I will be doing that over the coming months, in the way in which Wendy has asked and alluded to in the report. I will ensure that this issue continues to get the national prominence that it rightly deserves.
I also think, on that point, that this is the time for us all across this House to come together to right the wrongs. I have made it clear in my statement already that not only will I review Wendy’s recommendations on how the Home Office operates as an organisation, looking closely at, yes, the leadership, the culture, the practices and how it needs to put people before process—I cannot emphasise that enough—but I will also look at how we review policies and cultural change going forward. That is absolutely the right thing to do, but I emphasise that, in many of the measures and recommendations, and in the extent of the review—I have no doubt that when the right hon. Lady has the opportunity she will go through the review and read it, as I have—Wendy Williams is very clear that lessons must be learned at all levels, by all political parties. She describes the set of measures that evolved under Labour, coalition and Conservative Governments, and is clear those are lessons that we should all be learning, as politicians and as society, but also as Members of this House.
Mrs Theresa May (Maidenhead) (Con)
May I first associate myself with the unqualified apology that the Home Secretary has given to the Windrush generation? I have given my own apology previously, but I do so again today. This generation came here, they were British, they were here legally, they worked to build our country and they should not have been treated in this way. I recognise the commitment that my right hon. Friend has given to ensuring that the Home Office learns the lessons set out in the review.
May I draw my right hon. Friend’s attention to one of the elements that she referred to in her statement? Wendy Williams says in her review that
“a lack of insight into the community’s experience did delay an understanding of the problems being faced by the Windrush generation and led to opportunities being missed for resolving cases sooner.”
The Home Secretary referred to the fact that too many people still feel that they may be treated differently because of who they are or where their parents came from. Against that background, does she agree that the work of the race disparity audit, which I set up when I was Prime Minister, is absolutely critical in relation to this, and not just that that work should continue, but that every Department should act on the failings and the gaps in public sector provision for certain communities that are highlighted by that audit?
Priti Patel
I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) for her thoughtful comment. I emphasise and echo the work that she has done, but acknowledge her apology as well. She is absolutely right about the role of the race disparity audit. There is much that we can all take from this review. We should all as individuals be more conscious and aware not just of how we engage people, but of how we reach an understanding of communities and cultures, to help us all and to inform decision making and policies across Government in the future.
Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP)
This is a welcome statement and a welcome start, but it is only a start. The old maxim applies: legislate in haste, repent at leisure. The tragedy is that the price paid by some is significant and the actions of Government have been shameful, so an apology is both right and overdue. I recall as Justice Secretary of Scotland meeting a gentleman in his late 40s or 50s who, as a babe in arms, had left Scotland and gone to Australia. All his family and friends were in Australia. He had fallen from grace, developed an alcohol problem, committed a crime and been deported. I said then that the actions of the Government of Australia were shameful, and I repeat now that I believe the behaviour and actions of the UK Government are equally shameful when they replicate that. That gentleman was Australian, despite the passport he carried.
Will the Home Secretary ensure that those members of the Windrush generation who have been deported and who possess a different passport from the one that we in this Chamber have, but who are UK citizens the same as we are, are allowed to return? Will she also ensure that offenders from abroad who must be deported are rightly sent home, but that who possess a passport from Jamaica, Nigeria or wherever else, who have grown up in this country and are UK citizens, should be entitled to those rights?
Equally, although I believe the commitment to implement the recommendations is wholehearted and sincere, it is more than just a matter of living up to the recommendations; it must reflect the spirit of Wendy Williams’ report. I ask that the Government take on board those two points.
Priti Patel
I would like to make a number of points in response to the hon. Gentleman’s comments. First, he has already spoken to me about reviewing the recommendations, but I opened my statement by saying that I was deeply moved by reading the report, and I suggest that he too gives it some consideration and looks at the many recommendations made. In particular, I referenced the fact that we still have work to do in reaching members of the community, and I called for other individuals who feel that they have been affected to come forward, so that we can secure their status and provide the compensation that may be due to them.
There is something more fundamental, though. No amount of compensation or any process now can resolve the injustices that have happened. My focus right now is fundamentally not only to ensure that the recommendations are reviewed and undertaken, but to work with colleagues and Wendy Williams to ensure that we do this in the right way to bring about the change that we all want to see.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
I commend my right hon. Friend for her statement and for the apology she has given. The reality is that the Windrush generation, when they arrived here, were met with racism and outright hostility. That they have been treated so badly after so many years of service to this country is an absolute disgrace and a stain on our society. Will my right hon. Friend say a little more about what she can do to reach out to people who have been deported, or who are outside this country and wish to return but are not covered at the moment by what the Home Office is doing, so that they too can receive justice in the right way?
Priti Patel
My hon. Friend is absolutely right in his reflective remarks about the citizens who came to our country legally, in effect to rebuild our nation and join our public services. For many decades, that generation experienced great hostility and overt racism in our country. As much as our country has moved forward, made progress and changed, as I said, there much that we need to do and we must all look at ourselves. He is also right to highlight people of other nationalities—citizens of Commonwealth countries in particular. The shadow Home Secretary also referred to Commonwealth citizens who were caught up in this. I know the report speaks very much about the Windrush generation—people who originated in Caribbean communities—but many other people from Commonwealth countries have been affected. As part of our work in the Home Office, we will of course endeavour to reach out through our engagement programmes to individuals from Commonwealth countries too.
Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)
Wendy Williams’ Windrush lessons learned review is a brutal indictment of the Home Office, which shows that it is wholly unfit for the society it is supposed to serve. The review states that the Home Office displayed “institutional ignorance and thoughtlessness” on race issues that is
“consistent with some elements of the definition of institutional racism.”
The review accuses the Home Office of having a “defensive culture” that makes it deaf to those raising genuine concerns. Will the Home Secretary accept today, in this House, that, as was said previously, this was not a mistake or an accident, but a systemic pattern of appalling behaviour, rooted in a toxic internal culture and a failure of the Department to understand Britain’s colonial history?
Will the Home Secretary commit at the Dispatch Box to implement every single recommendation in this review? Will she review the £62,000 that has been paid out to those who should be compensated by far more? Will she ensure, at the Dispatch Box today, that she will end the hostile environment, which amplified things and has brought this about? The report asks for contrition and genuine understanding. We will hold her to account and to her word that that contrition is genuine, so that we right these shameful wrongs.
Priti Patel
I would urge the right hon. Gentleman to work with us all, collectively, to right these wrongs. I have been clear in my statement today, not just in giving an unequivocal apology, but in highlighting, as Wendy Williams has in an incredibly moving and thoughtful way, many of the issues that have led to the 30 recommendations she has made in this review. I will come back to the House and give all the recommendations full consideration.
The right hon. Gentleman has heard me say, and I have made this commitment to Wendy Williams, that I will work with her on reviewing the recommendations. That is the right thing to do. It is the right way to prevent something such as this from ever happening again.
The right hon. Gentleman also asked me about the culture within the Home Office. I have been clear that I am going to review all aspects of the Home Office. I will continue to look at the leadership, and at the changes we need to make to the culture and to policies; I have been clear about that in my statement. I will absolutely come back to the House, once I have worked with Wendy Williams, and share the details of how we will proceed as a Department in picking up the recommendations in this lessons learned review.
Gareth Bacon (Orpington) (Con)
My right hon. Friend has disclosed that the first time she received this was report was yesterday and that she published it at the earliest possible opportunity today. Will she also disclose when officials at the Home Office first had sight of this report?
Priti Patel
My hon. Friend is right to say that I received the report yesterday and, such is its importance, I published it today. Last July, Wendy Williams began the representations in the Maxwellisation process; those officials who have been involved and engaged in this process did not have sight of the actual review or report, because obviously it has taken time for that to come together, but there has been ongoing work and dialogue with key officials, former Ministers and many other interviewees Wendy has worked with for the publication of this review. That has taken place over a long period of time.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
This report is deeply disturbing, but it also tells us many of the things we have been raising concerns about since the Windrush crisis emerged. The result of it is that British citizens have been deported, been denied NHS treatment, been cost their jobs and been made homeless by the actions of the British Government, who act in all of our names. So all of us should be deeply ashamed by what has happened to the Windrush generation and determined that this should never happen again; the conclusions on racism are particularly damning. The Home Secretary will know that consecutive Home Affairs Committee reports, and reports from previous Committees as well, have often raised many of the concerns embedded in this report: concerns about the hostile environment; about the casework culture— the culture of disbelief; about the net migration target; and about a series of problems within the Home Office, but they have not had an impact. Some of the most damning conclusions in Wendy Williams’ report are that this was foreseeable and avoidable and that, since the Windrush crisis broke, the action that has been taken has been dealing only with the symptoms and not the causes. Will she therefore urgently agree to accept all the recommendations about scrutiny and openness in the Home Office, so that she can prove to Parliament that she is, in fact, going to make the fundamental changes that are needed?
Priti Patel
The right hon. Lady is right in her identification of the issues that existed over a period of time—Wendy Williams was also very clear about them in her review. Over several decades, and under successive Governments, those policies were part of the culture and the environment of the Home Office. I am clear that I will review all the recommendations, and I will work with Wendy. There may be recommendations that I can proceed with sooner rather than later, and I am absolutely committed to doing that, because there are structural and cultural issues at the heart of this. They are so self-evident in this report that no one can sit back and digest them lightly, or close their eyes and ears to many of the challenges and to some of the deeply moving points that have been made. I will come back to the House on this, but I will work absolutely vigorously with Wendy to look at every single recommendation and consider which ones we can proceed with at pace and very soon.
Several hon. Members rose—
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
As someone who has served in the military with soldiers from the Windrush generation, may I say that we never once thought of them as anything other than British? We looked in their eyes, and the eyes that looked back were British to the bone.
Priti Patel
I thank my hon. Friend for his comment. This review gives voice to people from the Windrush generation, who, of course, not only came to the UK legally, but were part of our country. They contributed to our country, our economy and our public services in an unprecedented way.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
The Home Secretary has said, “We will continue to do everything possible to ensure that the Home Office protects, supports and listens to every single part of the community it serves.” I commend the work of Councillor Carole Williams in Hackney, who is doing amazing work, pulling together the community and setting a better model than the Home Office’s for how that engagement could work.
I also want to ask the Home Secretary about the other 160,000 Commonwealth citizens in this situation, which is something that the Public Accounts Committee raised. While she is on her feet, will she also tell us what she is doing about people with no recourse to public funds who are part of the community she serves, who will be facing very difficult circumstances if they are unable to work because of covid-19?
Priti Patel
The hon. Lady raises a number of points. First, I thank everyone who is involved, and has been involved, in many of the outreach groups and the events that have taken place across the country. I have mentioned the stakeholder group in particular, which is something that I set up. I have spent a lot of time with volunteers and community activists, and their work has been remarkable and should be commended. There is much more that we need to do on that basis, and that equally applies to members of other Commonwealth countries. This report is very clear about that, and I am very clear about that as well. I said in my statement that we have not done enough yet to reach out to everyone, and that there is a lot of work to do in reaching out to other individuals and communities. I have asked other colleagues and Members of this House to work with us and their communities so that we can ensure that we reach the people who need help and support. That goes exactly to the point about recourse to public funds. I spoke about assistance with benefit claims and things of that nature. Again, we need to identify those individuals, and there is more we can do collectively.
The hon. Lady touched on the current crisis with covid-19 and how we will continue to do these things. That is a fair challenge to us all, because we will not be able to hold events in the way we had planned to. Much more work will now take place through media campaigns and our casework approach, but also through one-on-one communications. I would like the individuals she mentioned in her constituency, and other individuals who are working at the grassroots, to get in touch with me and my office. We will absolutely work with them to create a network locally.
Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con)
I was pleased to hear my right hon. Friend announce a fund for organisations to promote the various Windrush schemes. Will she confirm that the money will be directed to grassroots organisations? Will she also share the contact details for the various schemes with MPs so that we can direct our constituents appropriately?
Priti Patel
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I have announced today that we will open a £500,000 fund for grassroots organisations. All Members’ constituents, and organisations locally, can benefit from that outreach. I will publish details shortly of how we can work together—the House needs to come together—and make sure we can reach out to these individuals and communities. I will make those details available to everyone.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
The Home Secretary is aware of the serious dent in trust in her Department and the Government that these events have created in the community, which explains in part why the take-up of compensation so far is so low. One absolute running sore is deportations, particularly of people who have spent virtually their whole lives in this country—who have been brought up, educated and had their values and ethical views inculcated in them here—and who have served sentences for criminal convictions in this country, but then found that a further penalty is imposed on them, which causes huge resentment. In her review of policies, could the Home Secretary look again at the policy and the practice of deportations? I fear that, until this issues is addressed, the community will continue to feel very deep suspicion of her Department’s motives.
Priti Patel
The hon. Lady touches on a fundamental issue, which is that breach of trust. I know from the time I have spent with individuals from the Windrush generation and with advisory groups, and from speaking to groups and individuals, that it is fundamental, and it is a fact that that breach of trust will take a considerable time to repair. In doing that, there are a number of things that we will have to address. That includes, of course, our engagement and our approach, but also giving an absolute assurance that we are there to serve people and to support them in correcting their status and making their financial compensation claims. That is, effectively, what we are doing.
On top of that, I can give an assurance, as I said, that as part of the review and the recommendations I will be considering, I will review the way in which the Home Office operates—yes, the leadership and culture, but also many of the policies. I have touched on cultural change, but there is also the compliant environment policy.
Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) (Con)
Has the Home Secretary ever experienced institutional racism at the Home Office?
Priti Patel
Racism is not an issue that we should take lightly at all. As I said in my statement—other Members of the House can reflect on this—many people, including people of my own background, leave the house every single morning knowing that they could be treated differently because of who they are or where their parents came from. We have to do much more as a society on how we treat people, but also to understand the causes and deal with issues of racism at every single level.
Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab)
I welcome the Home Secretary’s statement and the report. This is quite clearly the most dreadful scandal and, as she rightly said, a breach of trust. Will she now reassure the House that she will do everything in her power to try to mend that breach of trust, and that she will treat the Windrush generation with the respect they deserve?
Priti Patel
I thank the hon. Gentleman for the tone of his question and for the points he makes. I urge all right hon. and hon. colleagues to look at the review. It is deeply moving and powerful. In many ways, it gives a voice to people who felt that their voice was taken away from them. My focus is to do right in terms of the wrongs that were undertaken and, more than just apologising to the individuals and communities affected, to review the recommendations and ensure that my Department puts people before process.
Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)
It is clear that my right hon. Friend is appalled by what she has read in the report. She has spoken with compassion, and I believe fully that she will ensure the Home Office changes. If there is one person who can do it, it is my right hon. Friend. However, can she give me an assurance that there will be no cap on the compensation awarded under the Windrush scheme?
Priti Patel
My hon. Friend is right to point to the scheme itself. I have spoken about the scheme and the way it works. There is no cap at all. I repeat my plea to all colleagues in the House to work with us to bring forward cases of claimants in their constituencies. I thank colleagues who have done that—not just recognising those individuals but working with the Home Office to ensure that those who are eligible receive the full compensation.
Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD)
This report and the Windrush scandal itself demonstrate how, under the hostile environment, people who have every right to live in the UK are far too often wrongly denied access to housing and other services, including the NHS. Now more than ever, ensuring access to healthcare for those who need it is crucial. In particular, it is vital that no one who needs to be tested or to seek treatment in relation to covid-19 is put off by uncertainty over their immigration status or fears that they will find themselves detained or reported as a result. Will the Home Secretary therefore guarantee that there will be no sharing of personal information from the NHS to the Home Office for immigration purposes?
Priti Patel
I have already made it clear that the lessons from this review must be learned at every level. The hon. Lady raises a very important point about covid-19, access to public services and public health. As far as I am concerned, that is not an issue we will need to deal with. When it comes to the Windrush generation—the individuals we have been speaking about who were involved in this review—they will be able to access public services and public funds in the way I have spoken about.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
The Windrush generation were British. They should not have been caught up in our immigration system, but they were. The Home Secretary’s apology and use of the past tense remain unconvincing while the hostile environment they experienced is still in place. The all-party parliamentary group for Africa, which I chair, reported on the disgraceful treatment of African visa applicants. As a constituency MP, I see every day, delay, neglect, discrimination and stereotyping in Home Office processes. Will the Secretary of State say today that our immigration system must be not only fair and fast but welcoming, and that that is the standard to which she will hold herself?
Priti Patel
First, Wendy Williams describes in the review a set of measures that evolved under a number of Governments over many decades. Clearly, we all need to move on and look at—[Interruption.] If the hon. Lady had waited patiently for me to finish my sentence, I would have said that we need to look at the review and recommendations. I have been very clear about the work I will undertake in the Home Office in terms of reviewing policies, but also on policies that relate to the compliant environment and cultural change. In my time as Home Secretary, I have been consistent about having a firm, yes, but fair immigration policy to ensure that we are welcoming to people who can come here and contribute to the United Kingdom. That is exactly the signal that our country should be sending to everyone across the world.
Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab)
Is the Home Secretary now beginning to understand how fundamental and profound the breach of trust in the Home Office is that stems from the Windrush scandal? In my constituency, there are Windrush citizens who are fearful of coming forward to claim compensation because of that breach of trust, and many more who live in daily fear of the possibility that their lives might also be ruined by the Home Office. Specifically, they live in fear of ending up on a charter flight. As recently as last month, the Home Office was having to remove passengers from a charter flight because it had not followed due process. Will she commit to pause charter flights and suspend them until the lessons learned review has been implemented in full?
Will the Home Secretary also join me in paying tribute to the Black Cultural Archives on Windrush Square in my constituency? It has played an exceptional role in stepping forward to provide support for Windrush citizens, when grassroots funding was being called for, but was not provided by the Government? Will she confirm that the BCA will now be funded to do its vital work of helping to enable Windrush citizens to come forward to claim the compensation for which they are eligible?
Priti Patel
I have been very clear in my statement today about not just the lessons learned review, but the changes that need to come forward. That is not an overnight revelation. I have been working on this in the Home Office. The hon. Member will have heard in my statement about the work I have undertaken with members of the Windrush generation, the advisory group and the compensation group to understand many of the issues, the challenges and the injustices—I have heard about those experiences at first hand, as no doubt she has—and to understand how we can address them directly.
The hon. Lady has also heard me say today, and I can confirm again, that we are announcing a £500,000 grassroots fund to help support, and to help with the dissemination of information that will support, members of the Windrush generation and others who may have been caught up in this and some of the policies and processes of the past. It is quite clear that there is a great deal more work to do.
The hon. Lady asked about deportations, and in reference to the flight that departed several weeks ago I can give her an assurance that there was no one from the Windrush generation on that flight. Not only that, but that deportation took place under the UK Borders Act 2007, which was introduced by this House of Commons under a previous Labour Government.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
The Home Secretary has already acknowledged that the Home Office has not investigated the impact on those from Commonwealth countries outside the Caribbean and has excluded from consideration those with a criminal record who were wrongly deported. Can she confirm that the research will now be extended, as Wendy Williams recommends, and will she ensure that sufficient resources are made available so that the work is carried out as soon as possible?
Priti Patel
I will be looking in detail at every recommendation that Wendy Williams has put forward, and I will be working with her on the delivery of many of them.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
Six years ago, over 30,000 overseas students from Commonwealth countries lost their visas when they were accused by the American firm ETS of cheating in its TOEIC—test of English for international communication—English language test. It has since become clear that many of those accusations, in fact almost certainly most of them, were without foundation. In learning the lessons of Windrush, will the Home Secretary ensure that students who are innocent get an affordable route to finally clear their names?
Priti Patel
The right hon. Member has raised this point with me previously, and I thank him for raising it again today. I will look into it. He has asked me to do so, and I will absolutely take that away.
Business of the House
(4 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg)
The business for the week commencing 23 March will include:
Monday 23 March—Consideration of a business of the House motion, followed by all stages of the Coronavirus Bill.
Tuesday 24 March—Committee and remaining stages of the Windrush Compensation Scheme (Expenditure) Bill, followed by a motion relating to appointments to the Parliamentary Works Sponsor Body, followed by a general debate on the situation in Yemen—the subject for this debate was determined by the Backbench Business Committee—followed by, if necessary, consideration of Lords amendments.
Wednesday 25 March—If necessary, consideration of Lords amendments, followed by Opposition day— 7th allotted day. There will be a debate on a motion in the name of the Leader of the official Opposition, followed by, if necessary, consideration of Lords amendments.
Thursday 26 March—If necessary, consideration of Lords amendments, followed by a debate on a motion on errors in payments made to victims of the Equitable Life scandal, followed by a debate on a motion on human rights in Kashmir—the subjects for these debates were determined by the Backbench Business Committee—followed by, if necessary, consideration of Lords amendments.
Friday 27 March—Private Members’ Bills.
The provisional business for the week commencing 30 March will include:
Monday 30 March—Consideration of Lords amendments, if necessary, followed by Second Reading of the Non-Domestic Rating (Public Lavatories) Bill, followed by, if necessary, consideration of Lords amendments.
Tuesday 31 March—Matters to be raised before the forthcoming Adjournment. The subject for this debate was determined by the Backbench Business Committee.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
I thank the Leader of the House for consulting Opposition parties last week on Westminster Hall debates, the result of which he has announced. We are in unprecedented times, and I appreciate that things are moving fast. I hope he will continue to consult.
I thank you, Mr Speaker, for the statement you made yesterday, when the Chancellor gave his statement to the press first rather than to Parliament. Parliament must be told first: we are not irrelevant. I note that the Chancellor apologised and gave you an assurance, but he did not actually say that he would not do it again. I ask the Leader of the House to ensure that, when press conferences are held, all the information is given. What is happening is that journalists are being briefed afterwards and important information is then highlighted under breaking news, rather than at the press conference.
I thank all the staff—we now have a skeleton staff—and those who have made arrangements so that they can service Parliament. Could I ask the Leader of the House if the parliamentary staff are key workers, so they too can be supported with childcare and other benefits? Will he confirm that no one will have to use their holiday entitlement when they are self-isolating or when they are sick? Hopefully they will get sick pay, but there is an issue that they may be using up their holiday entitlement.
We were in a good position to learn from other countries. After all, China built hospitals in two weeks. Vò in Italy has tested a lot—and we know that asymptomatic people, of which there may be many here, can still transmit it—and it is now virus free. I am pleased that the Leader of the House has taken on board the suggestion that I made last week, and that the Government and the BBC have looked to ensure that the over-75s do not have to pay for their television licence fees. I note that that is only until August, but all the other packages that have been mentioned will take place over 12 months.
The Education Secretary yesterday said he wanted to work with the BBC to ensure that our children can learn while they are at home, and also to provide exercise for seniors while we are all self-isolating. It is not right that the BBC should have to foot the bill, and it needs to be compensated for any loss of income. I want to ask the Leader of the House if he can, as much as possible, confirm that we will be back on 21 April. We know the Environment Bill is in Committee: can he make a statement on the timetable for Bills and the Brexit negotiations?
If we have to self-isolate, we will all be indulging in the creative industries— music, television and films. I know that the Leader of the House knows that most of those involved are self-employed now. Many of them have had concerts cancelled, and we need to have a proper package for them so that they do not lose out. There is some confusion, because insurers are cancelling events and citing force majeure. We know that the Department of Health has said that coronavirus is a notifiable disease, so could he please clarify that?
I have a constituent who had a stroke, and she has been asked for a sick note by her human resources department, but the GP is not giving her one. Could the Leader of the House clarify whether sick notes are needed?
I appreciate that the emergency legislation will be published later today—perhaps it has already been published—and it includes a sunset clause of two years. I would urge caution, because this is, after all, the Government that were found to have acted unlawfully over Prorogation. It is important that there is a shorter sunset clause and that the Leader of the House confirms that Parliament will return on 21 April.
May I make a helpful suggestion? There are lots of issues coming out of each Department. Could a statement be made, and published on gov.uk, on each Department and its package, and could there be dedicated helplines, so that we do not have to trouble, say, a Health Minister with questions about employment rights?
I know that the Government do not want to appear on “Today”, but the former Prime Minister Gordon Brown had some very important words to say on it this morning, and they should be heeded. Will the Government ensure that experts from other fields are heard? After all, when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister, he and Alistair Darling went through the economic emergency caused by the banking crisis, and also had to deal with flooding. What Gordon Brown said was very important: we are here to protect not our institutions, but our people. Please could we ensure that that happens?
It is excellent news that Nazanin has been freed. I thank the Leader of the House for all his efforts on that front, and those who made diplomatic efforts. Nazanin is out for two weeks, albeit with a tag that her family has had to pay for. Some 85,000 prisoners have been released in Iran, but neither Anoosheh nor Kylie, both dual nationals, are among them. Could I again ask the Leader of the House to raise their case? They need to be back home, where we can help them if they have coronavirus, which we know is widespread in Iran.
One of the good things to have come out of the current situation is the fabulous community groups that have been set up to help people. Post Office workers and members of the Communication Workers Union are going to every house, helping with deliveries. Firefighters in Manchester are going to ring elderly people often. Let us keep our spirits up. Tomorrow is the first day of spring!
Mr Rees-Mogg
The right hon. Lady is right to keep our spirits up, and to remind us that tomorrow is the first day of spring. I hope that will put a suitable spring in our step. I am very grateful for the support given to the Government in these difficult times by the Opposition; the right hon. Lady; the Leader of the Opposition; the shadow Health Secretary, who has been working very closely with the Government; and of course to the Opposition Chief Whip, who is invariably a means of ensuring that mechanisms in this place work.
I also record my thanks to parliamentary counsel for the phenomenal work that they have done in bringing forward the emergency legislation that will be presented later today. They have been working all weekend and late into the night on drafting the Bill. I note the point made about the sunset clause; it will have been noted. We want to maintain co-operation with all parties across the House, and I am sure that there will be discussions over the weekend on that point, but it is not for me to make commitments. I am genuinely grateful for the support.
On statements to this House, the Chancellor did indeed apologise for not making his statement here first. He was bringing forward financially sensitive information; those kinds of statement can be more difficult than others. I am glad to say that the Education Secretary made his statement here first, before holding a press conference. It is not an easy issue, because we need to inform the country at large, but maintain parliamentary accountability at the same time. Obviously, we will work closely with you, Mr Speaker, to ensure that Parliament is kept properly informed, and that we do not find things out purely from news reports, but it is important to get information out to the country at large as well.
With regard to our return on 21 April, it is very important that Parliament continues to sit. The position of Her Majesty’s Government is that Parliament will continue to sit. It is a point of significance. We need to be held to account, and to legislate. As for Bills in Committee, we will be able to ensure that those Committees continue as long as the House is sitting, but we may need discussions on precisely how the House operates. The shadow Leader of the House asks about voting arrangements. I thank the Opposition for not calling Divisions this week; that has been helpful in the circumstances. We need to work together closely to ensure that the mechanisms that we use are effective, to ensure that we hold the Government to account, and to legislate properly. We will have to look at this matter; I do not think it is right to make an immediate decision from the Dispatch Box. Let us see what the situation is when we come back on 21 April. There will have to be cross-party agreement; that is of fundamental importance to how the House works.
With regard to sick notes—I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for mentioning this to me in advance—as I understand it, they can now be obtained by going online with 111, so people will not need to get them from their doctors, though I reiterate the Government’s encouragement to businesses to be flexible about it. British businesses in many ways are leading the way. One hears all sorts of pieces of good news. For example, BP is offering free fuel to emergency service vehicles and things like that. Business is being community-spirited, and I encourage the business in the specific case she mentions, and in other similar cases, to behave in that way.
The right hon. Lady makes very good points about the centralisation of information. It is important that we have a reasonable balance rather than constantly bombarding Ministers to get information that is straightforwardly available already. The more information is collated, the better that will be. That was an extremely valid point, as was the point about the expertise of others. I also heard the interview with Gordon Brown, who had many interesting things to say, and I can assure the House that the Government are taking suggestions from a wide range of sources. As one can imagine, ideas are pouring in to the Government, and that is welcome.
On the over-75s, Lord Hall was on the radio this morning saying that the issue was under review. It is not therefore an August deadline and that is it—it is a decision that has been made until then. The BBC will consider it further, although I think we are going to have the opportunity of watching lots of repeats if we are staying at home. There are some wonderful programmes that were made not so many years ago, so that will not be too much of a burden, I would have thought.
I share the right hon. Lady’s pleasure about Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. It is really very good news that she has been released. To update the House, the Foreign Secretary spoke to the Foreign Minister Mr Zarif on 16 March about all the dual national cases, so the Government are continuing to push on that. One piece of good news is welcome; let us hope there is more good news to come.
Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend find time for a debate on the treatment of UK nationals held in prisons overseas? Last month I went with my constituent Mr Sandhu to see his son held in prison in Prague for alleged offences of fraud. The family very much want the Government to intercede to see if their son can be released on bail.
Mr Rees-Mogg
I welcome my hon Friend back to business questions. We have missed him, and I am glad that he is not forced stay at home and is therefore able to raise that point. Consular staff are providing assistance to Mr Sandhu’s son, and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has set out how it can help in its publications available on gov.uk, called “Support for British nationals abroad: a guide” and “Arrested abroad”. We can consider intervening with the local authorities if a detainee is not treated in line with internationally accepted standards or with consent, to raise concerns about mistreatment. However, as my hon. Friend will understand, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office cannot interfere in the judicial and legal processes of another country. We can make representations, but we cannot force. My hon. Friend is right to raise the issue.
Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)
Last night I was due to speak at an event for which more than 300 people had registered but, because of the crisis, the organisers took the event online and all those people were able to participate from the convenience and safety of their own homes. What surprised me was that the hardware I required to do that was none other than the standard issue iPad I was given five years ago by this Parliament. I say that because it convinces me that the technology is available for us to continue to have informed democratic debate without the necessity of having to meet in this Chamber.
Is the Leader of the House considering such procedures? Alongside things such as changing our Standing Orders to reduce the attendance required to make legislation, there are also mechanisms whereby people can represent their constituents and press the case that they want to on behalf of the people who elected them without the necessity to actually attend the Parliament, and I think we need to do a lot more on that.
With regard to the emergency legislation, which we shall see shortly, I wanted to ask a specific point as to whether that will give the Government the scope to take action against some people who are engaged in quite disreputable behaviour at this point in time. While the public response to this crisis has brought out the best in people, there are some instances where it has brought out the worst as well. Many people will be shocked by the fact that there are private medical companies profiteering by charging exorbitant fees for testing at this point in time. I believe such people should be detained and their assets should be commandeered and put to the public good. I wonder whether the emergency legislation will give the Government the powers to act in that way.
With regard to the debate about a universal basic income or a minimum income guarantee, which many people feel is essential to avoid perhaps millions of people approaching the Department for Work and Pensions for benefit claims, the Prime Minister gave a guarantee yesterday that he would meet with others and bring forward proposals on that. When might we expect a statement to the House from the Prime Minister on that, and when will such a meeting take place?
Finally, it seems rather surreal and fanciful to be planning to meet not just next week in full, but the week after. Should we not now be taking steps to wind down our formal processes and go to the Easter recess at the end of next week? Would that not be the sensible course of action and indicate leadership to everyone else in the country?
Mr Rees-Mogg
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the tone and the interest of his proposals. Everybody is open to ideas as to how things might be done differently and what the needs are on attendance. Mr Speaker received a letter from the Chair of the Procedure Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley), that sets out options for how Select Committees may be able to carry on with their important business without meeting in person. Parliament will consider what steps can reasonably be taken to allow things to be done remotely. It may be difficult to recreate the Chamber remotely, but there are certainly options with Select Committees and they are being considered.
The Government share the hon. Gentleman’s concern about people profiteering from the crisis and are aware that some people are behaving extremely well and others are using this as an opportunity. One has heard stories of people charging exorbitant prices for hand sanitiser, loo roll and so on, so the Government are aware of the issue and will act if necessary. As yet, it does not seem to be so widespread a problem as to require Government action, but we are not ignoring the point.
On universal basic income, the Government are willing to consider all ideas. Lots of ideas are coming in. The priority is to proceed with things that can be implemented rapidly and for which systems already exist. It may prove difficult to introduce entirely new systems, but I am sure that the Prime Minister, having said that he is open to meetings on this matter, will prove open to meetings on this matter.
As regards the week after next, the House voted for the recess dates, but it can obviously vote for new recess dates. We want to maintain flexibility, because I cannot make an absolute guarantee that all the emergency legislation that could possibly have been thought of is in the Bill coming before the House today. There may be other things that we need to legislate on, and there is also a demand for scrutiny, so we have to get the balance right. Nothing will be done without consulting the Opposition parties—I emphasise the plural.
Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)
The Opposition have a serious point in terms of the duration of the debate on the emergency legislation, given that it appears that we will debate it only for one day. There is a qualitative difference between a single-day debate on major legislation and even a two-day debate. I know that the upper House has different constitutional arrangements, but can the Leader of the House tell us how much time he expects it to spend considering the legislation, before it sends it back to us?
Mr Rees-Mogg
I note my right hon. Friend’s point, of which the Government are aware. The Bill needs to progress with support in this House. Emergency legislation is best done and tends to go through successfully only when there is widespread consensus, so his point is important. Unfortunately, I cannot say what proceedings will be in the other place, and I do not think it would be right for me to try; it would be slightly impertinent of me to say what their lordships will do.
Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
There is a lot of rivalry in the rugby league, especially in Hull, where we are blessed to have two super league teams: Hull FC and Hull Kingston Rovers. It is clear that rugby league clubs need a special scheme of support. I spoke with both clubs’ chairmen yesterday evening, and they are very worried about the survival of their clubs as a result of covid-19. Can we have a statement from a Minister on what plans there are to financially support rugby league clubs at this incredibly worrying time, so that they can survive to not next week, next month or next year, but for the next 125 years?
Mr Rees-Mogg
A lot of businesses and sporting organisations are worried. I reiterate what the Chancellor has said: everything that can be done will be done to ensure the stability of the economy through this period and that businesses that are well founded are able to continue.
Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con)
Tomorrow, thousands of businesses across the country that provide childcare and nursery services have been asked to shut their doors for an indefinite period. Can we have a debate on what we can do to help the childcare sector through this very difficult period, to ensure that we have successful, thriving and high-quality nursery provision for the years ahead?
Mr Rees-Mogg
There are inevitably concerns following the announcement yesterday of the closures that will take place. The Government are working with providers of all levels of education to ensure that they are aware of the situation and are helped to cope through it, and I understand that further announcements will be made today.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
Will the Leader of the House take this opportunity to thank everyone working on our transport networks—on our buses and trains, driving delivery vehicles and so on? Does he recognise that there are real concerns about the impact of the reduction in passenger flights, not only on travel businesses and aviation workers but on the movement of essential goods which are usually carried in the hold of passenger planes? When can we expect a statement from the Secretary of State for Transport, so that we can raise this and many other concerns?
Mr Rees-Mogg
Of course, I am willing to thank everybody in the transport sector who is working so hard. It is interesting to note, in terms of how society has developed, that delivery drivers for supermarkets are unquestionably key workers. They are playing an incredibly important role, particularly for those who need to stay at home and, from next week, for those with particular medical conditions who will be encouraged to be shielded. The work they are doing is making it possible for people to carry on with their lives as far as possible, so it is very important work. With regard to the flow of trade in the bellies of aeroplanes, that is an important point. I think there is such demand for ministerial statements that many of them will need to be written rather than oral statements.
Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
I thank my right hon. Friend for his response to the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard) on how this House should operate. I want to connect two issues: the scrutiny of emergency powers and the need for public confidence in their exercise, and the role of Select Committees. When does he think he will be in a position to announce to the House what the arrangements for Select Committees will be? If these emergency powers are to be exercised, Select Committees can sit when the House is not sitting and provide some democratic oversight of how these powers are being exercised.
Mr Rees-Mogg
Perhaps it is helpful to explain how we came to agreement on Westminster Hall being suspended, to give an example of how we are intending to work. There was a letter from the Clerk of the House to Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker consulted me. I consulted the right hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) and representatives of the Scottish National party. We consulted the Chairmen of the most relevant Select Committees, and then we came forward with a motion. It is very important that what we do for Select Committees similarly has cross-party support and consensus across this House. I think that if the Leader of the House, representing the Government, were to come forward with proposals for how Select Committees should operate, people might think that that was designed not to enhance but to reduce scrutiny. It is of the utmost importance that this is done with consensus, and therefore it will take a little time—a few days—to discuss these matters, but proposals will be brought forward.
Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)
In the last hour I have received urgent communication from the leading funeral operators in the UK, who tell me that there is a reluctance by the Cabinet Office to include funeral care workers on the list of essential employees. It is inconceivable that this industry will be short-staffed at this time. Will the Leader of the House please urgently communicate with his Cabinet colleagues to ensure that those in the funeral industry are on the list of essential workers?
Mr Rees-Mogg
The hon. Lady always makes the most important points in this House, and I always find myself in agreement with her. It is no different on this occasion; I will take her point up with colleagues immediately after this session.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
Many colleagues have constituents abroad, many of whom are desperate to get back home. When can we have a debate on price gouging and bring forward—perhaps in the emergency legislation—price gouging measures? Most airlines are trying to do their bit to help, but there are some examples of egregious price gouging preventing people from coming home. I think that British people might find it very difficult to swallow if the airlines wanted us to bail them out while at the same time they were hiking up prices for people who need to come back home.
Mr Rees-Mogg
My hon. Friend raises a sensible point. The Foreign Office is working closely with the airlines to ensure that people can be brought back home, and the Department for Transport is working closely with them as well. I would make a general point that goes back to what was said by the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard), which is that businesses are, in some cases, behaving very well. Businesses will want to maintain the support of the community in what they do, so, regardless of Government intervention, they would be well advised to maintain the good will of the British people.
Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)
I want to follow up on the point about Select Committees. Will the Government please bring forward next week the motions to establish both the Liaison Committee and the Scottish Affairs Committee? I know that we have had our differences about this, but we need the scrutinising mechanisms in place.
Mr Rees-Mogg
I am obviously aware of these points. Both Committees were prevented from being set up by actions within this House, so the Government are inevitably deliberating on the consequences. The priority is ensuring that the Select Committees that are already set up can operate, rather than necessarily the ones that are not yet set up.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
In difficult times we should remember those who sacrifice most, so may we have a statement or debate on the substance of early-day motion 280 about the scandal of war widows who lost their pensions on remarriage?
[That this House honours and recognises the sacrifices that our veterans and their families make; notes the particular sacrifices that the partners of veterans make and the consequences for them of tragically losing a spouse or partner serving in the armed forces; notes the changes announced in 2014 which allowed war widows or widowers that lost their spouse or cohabiting partner in service in the armed forces before 6 April 2005, and had not remarried by 1 April 2015, to retain their war widow pension for life regardless of ongoing relationship status; notes however that this regrettably excluded war widows bereaved before 6 April 2005 that had already had to surrender their war widows pension upon remarrying or cohabiting; believes that this is unacceptable; notes that the only way this group of war widows could regain their pensions is by divorcing their current partners and remarrying them; agrees with the then Defence Secretary who said on 18 February 2019 that this was a burning injustice, Official Report, column 1187; and therefore supports the campaign of the War Widows Association to rectify this anomaly; and urges the Government to correct this injustice by providing equalisation and compensation for the small number of war widows unjustly affected.]
May we also have a debate on early-day motion 307—which, more positively, is about the enhanced co-operation between Blind Veterans UK and the Blinded Veterans Association of America, which are setting up a new combined eye trauma taskforce—and look for the Government’s support in that matter?
Mr Rees-Mogg
The Government recognise the unique commitment that service families make to our country, and remain sympathetic to the circumstances of those widows who remarried or cohabited before 1 April 2015. However, the Government currently have no plans to reinstall state war widows’ pensions for war widows who remarried or cohabited before the 2015 change took effect. The Defence Secretary stated in the House on 3 February 2020 that the Department is
“examining alternative methods to see whether we can mitigate the impact”—[Official Report, 3 February 2020; Vol. 671, c. 3.]
of these changes. There is always a difficulty with cut-off dates.
As regards the co-operation between the US and the UK in relation to blindness and eye problems, what my right hon. Friend suggests sounds extremely worth looking into, and I will ensure that it is taken up with the Ministry of Defence.
Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)
Further to the question from the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard), I have constituents who are as far away as the Philippines and Peru at the moment. They have been told to contact the embassies, but the embassy staff have rightly been sent home and contact with the embassies is nigh on impossible. There is spare capacity on the airlines at the moment, so can we have a statement from the Department for Transport or the Foreign Office—or, better still, both—about how we are going to bring our stranded people back home?
Mr Rees-Mogg
I can assure the hon. Gentleman that this is at the forefront of what the Foreign Secretary is doing; I heard him say that only this morning. He is ensuring that people who are in difficulties in remote areas receive as much support as the Foreign Office can possibly give.
Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con)
Through you, Mr Deputy Speaker, may I thank Mr Speaker for the pace at which he brought through the changes to the way we operate here in respect of social distancing and our practices? That was the right thing to do. It seems to me that, given the scale and pace of the coronavirus spread and the threat to life, health, incomes and jobs throughout the country, it is quite right that the Government bring forward emergency legislation briskly and want to see it go through the House briskly, but it is equally right that Parliament has the opportunity to scrutinise the legislation. I have a couple of questions along those lines. First, is there a particular reason why the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 was not used? It already contains many of the safeguards that I suspect the House will wish to see.
Secondly, if the emergency legislation is passed—I hope it is, given the circumstances, albeit possibly with a few modifications—what other opportunities will there be for the House to question particular measures? This is a dynamic and fast-moving situation, and it may well be that within literally 48 or 72 hours one of the measures adopted results in perhaps 1 million or 2 million unemployed people with nowhere to go. What other opportunities will there be for the House to hold the Government to account quickly, should it prove necessary
Mr Rees-Mogg
Unfortunately, the Civil Contingencies Act would not have worked in these circumstances, because the problem was known about early enough for it not to qualify as an emergency under the terms of that Act. The legal experts say that if we can introduce emergency legislation, we should do so rather than using the Civil Contingencies Act, because if we have time to introduce emergency legislation, we obviously knew about it long enough in advance for the Act not to apply. That is why that Act could not be used.
On future scrutiny, one reason why it is so important that we keep the operation of this House going—to which, as I have said before, the Government are committed—is to ensure that scrutiny takes place. The Government of this country are the Executive and the legislature; they are not purely the Executive. We need to ensure that the legislature is operating efficiently, even if it has to operate differently, to ensure that we carry out our proper role.
Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab)
My constituent, who is trapped in Peru, is being advised by the British consulate to apply for a place on a private flight, at a minimum cost of $3,000. When a member of my casework team challenged that advice and suggested that my constituent may not be able to access $3,000 easily, she was told by the representative at the British consulate, “Do they want it to be free, then?” That is not consistent with the sentiment that the Leader of the House recently expressed when he said that the Foreign Secretary is doing everything within his power to bring our citizens home. Will he ask the Foreign Secretary to come to the House to explain the lack of capacity in British consulates overseas, the appalling attitude that is being taken by some of his staff, and how he is going to ensure that our vulnerable citizens stranded overseas can come home during this pandemic?
Mr Rees-Mogg
I reassure the hon. Lady that the Foreign Secretary is, as I said earlier, taking this issue with the greatest seriousness. It is a little unfair to pick on one example of an offhand comment and assume that that is the general way consulates behave. Consulates are deeply stretched because of the numbers involved and the nature and unexpectedness of this crisis. Dare I say it that all of us have come to realise the seriousness of this crisis over time, so some replies are getting better as time goes on and the necessity becomes clearer. The Foreign Secretary is certainly working very hard on this issue.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
The Select Committee on Defence wants to meet on Tuesday, but it will not be doing so. We have the witnesses in place, but they cannot beam themselves in virtually. I hope that can be corrected so we can go to a digital environment.
May I invite Ministers to give us a statement on military assistance to civil authorities through the covid-19 support force? We have 20,000 armed forces personnel on standby for mobilisation to assist during this coronavirus outbreak. They will do a terrific job, but what will that job be? There is speculation that they might be involved in the shutdown of London, but we know that is incorrect. On top of that, they have a day job to do of watching our backs to keep our nation safe. With that in mind, and with the ever-increasing pressures that will be placed on those personnel as the coronavirus outbreak continues, will Ministers consider delaying the defence, foreign policy and security review until the new year?
Mr Rees-Mogg
Select Committees need to think carefully about how they approach their business before any specific arrangements are made. Public evidence sessions are the greatest strain on House resources because of the requirement for Hansard reporters, for broadcasting and so on. I ask the Chairmen of Select Committees to be considerate in their planning for public sessions. Private sessions require much less in terms of House resources.
On assistance from the military, I understand a written ministerial statement will be tabled today by the Ministry of Defence. I agree with my right hon. Friend that the service provided to us by our armed forces, in all circumstances, is truly remarkable and inspirational.
I am glad my right hon. Friend has raised some of the wilder stories that were circulating yesterday, and I encourage all hon. and right hon. Members to listen to official sources of information. Some of the things going around yesterday seem to have been said merely to make the flesh crawl. It is much better to listen to the press conferences of the chief medical officer and the chief scientific adviser for their calm responses to what is actually happening.
Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab)
I am worried for the many vibrant and unique pubs, clubs and music venues in Newport West. Their insurance policies cover a long list of notifiable diseases, but covid-19 is not one of them. Sam Dabb, the owner of Le Pub, a co-operative pub and music venue in Newport city centre, told me: “Without Government intervention, my business will not survive. Most people in the hospitality industry are in the same boat.” When does the Leader of the House expect the Government to announce what support will be provided to businesses whose insurance policies do not cover covid-19 as a notifiable disease?
Mr Rees-Mogg
The hon. Lady is right to raise this point. The Chancellor has said he will do whatever it takes, which is an important commitment. The scale of the problem is one that, if just moved to the insurance companies, it would have an effect on the insurance companies. We therefore need to look at what the Government are doing and at their overall approach, and we need to take to heart the Chancellor’s word that he will do whatever it takes.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
The Chairman of the Backbench Business Committee, the hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns), is away on constituency business so, on behalf of the Committee, can I ask my right hon. Friend what provisions will be made for restarting Westminster Hall debates, which are a major part of the Committee’s allocation? Alternatively, will there be further time for debates in this Chamber?
Most of us did not use hand sanitisers until a few weeks ago. I have seen evidence of wholesalers trebling prices to retailers, but it is not clear that those increases have been passed on by manufacturers. Wholesalers are clearly profiteering from these hand sanitisers, and retailers are left with the unenviable choice of passing on the increases or having a small margin. Can we have a Government statement on what will be done to prevent such unfair profiteering at a time of national emergency?
Mr Rees-Mogg
I will answer both questions. We will have discussions about reopening Westminster Hall as soon as that is practicable. There is a commitment to reopen it, and the discussions about reopening Westminster Hall will be similar to the ones about closing it. Particularly at this time, with not all Ministers being available, the pressure has been greater than normal, but that will abate in due course.
My hon. Friend is right to raise the immoral practice of profiteering and racketeering, and I call on wholesalers to exercise better judgment. The Government are keeping a close eye on such activity, as I said earlier, and will act if necessary. Some people always feel the right thing to do in difficult times is to get involved in profiteering. They should think twice about that and not do it.
Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
I do not know whether the Leader of the House heard his colleague from the Treasury answering an urgent question this morning, but it was quite clear that the Government are struggling, in these exceptional circumstances, to come up with policies and guidance and to get information out to the public on support for workers and families. On that basis, may I suggest gently to the Leader of the House that putting on the Order Paper for the coming days things like Second Reading of the Non-Domestic Rating (Public Lavatories) Bill is not what this Parliament should be focusing on at the moment? We should be having statements from Ministers so that Members of Parliament can raise the issues that their constituents are bringing to them daily rather than starting legislation that is not vital in these exceptional times.
Mr Rees-Mogg
We have had statements from the Chancellor and the Education Secretary, and regular updates from the Health Secretary to keep the House up to date. I would emphasise the word “provisional”. The business for the week after next is, as always, the provisional business and that which is provisional is not set in stone.
Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con)
During times of national emergency, the media play a vital role in delivering information to concerned viewers, listeners and readers. Scrutiny is good, but undermining the national effort by spreading misinformation helps nobody and creates panic among some of the most vulnerable members of our society. Will my right hon. Friend raise this issue with broadcasters such as ITV, where Piers Morgan, who has no scientific or medical qualifications, seems to want to make irresponsible comments on a daily basis?
Mr Rees-Mogg
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question and he is right to point out the role that the media plays in informing the public and holding the Government to account—[Interruption.] I hear a chunter from the Opposition Benches. Michael Crick is indeed brilliant; he is somebody I particularly admire and one of the best journalists at holding people to account. One does not need to take every utterance from controversialists as holy writ. Piers Morgan enjoys causing a row and, frankly, it would be better to pay less attention to him rather than more and to listen to the Government advisers. Free speech is very precious. If people want to say silly things and look foolish, that is a matter for them.
Charlotte Nichols (Warrington North) (Lab)
I am sure that all colleagues across the House find that the bulk of questions from constituents come in after statements when we have had an opportunity to raise matters, once the details, or lack thereof, of what has been proposed and how it will impact on them have percolated—from breweries to nurseries, to self-employed creatives and everything in between. Will the Leader of the House arrange a general debate to allow us to raise supplementary questions and to give our constituents the assurances that they so desperately need in this very fast-moving situation?
Mr Rees-Mogg
The hon. Lady points out a perpetual dilemma in the practise of holding to account. There is always pressure to come to the House in as timely a manner as possible to ensure that the House is informed immediately; on the other hand, there is better information available 24 hours or 48 hours later which raises more questions. That is why one should view the process of holding to account as a continuum rather than as a one-off occasion, and why it is important to keep this House open, so that Ministers can be held to account. I am not sure that general debates tends to offer that level of focus, but Question Times and continual statements do, and that depends on the House sitting.
Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con)
I welcome the unprecedented level of support provided to our businesses by the Chancellor earlier this week, but is it not also important to consider our charitable sector during this critical time? Earlier this week, I spoke to the chief executive of Suffolk Age UK to ask him how my office could support elderly people in my constituency as much as possible. He said to me that, in the short term, there are lots of volunteers—more volunteers than he has ever had before—but his major concern is about the financial future of the charity. In many senses, charities operate in the same way as businesses, and many of their fundraising activities—charity shops, fundraising events—have had to be cancelled because of the crisis that we are going through at the moment. Is it not appropriate for the House to set aside time to debate how we can support vital charities such as Age UK, which, through their volunteers, are supporting some of the most vulnerable people in our constituencies at the moment?
Mr Rees-Mogg
I thank my hon. Friend for raising that and for the work he does to support charities in his constituency. I think all of us as constituency MPs have a role in our communities to do what we can to help. I would go back to what the Chancellor has said. He is aware that these difficulties are affecting a range of sectors and he will do whatever it takes to provide the necessary support. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport will be co-ordinating the volunteering effort, to ensure that it is as beneficial as possible.
Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)
I listened carefully to the Leader of the House’s responses to hon. Members’ points about the many UK citizens stranded abroad—our constituents—and I am afraid it will not do. Will the Government make a statement, written or otherwise, on their plans for repatriating UK citizens? Or are they just supposed to continue largely to fend for themselves?
Mr Rees-Mogg
One cannot always provide satisfaction, much though I have tried hard to do so, but Her Majesty’s Government are doing whatever they can to help constituents in these difficult times. The Foreign Secretary is working very hard on this and is working with the airlines on it. This is a process, and I am afraid that not everybody is going to be repatriated overnight, because it is not simply a question of doing that; rather, it is a question of getting in touch with people, ensuring that the facilities are available and then getting them home. However, the Government are working hard to try to help constituents.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
The Government undoubtedly need emergency legislation, but as I understand it the Bill is some 350 pages long, includes measures that, uniquely, would allow Ministers to switch on and off their powers without any reference to Parliament whatsoever, and is intended to last for two years. Some of these will be draconian measures restricting the liberty of the individual in this country. They may be completely necessary, but can I urge the Government to think about, first, making it possible for us to table amendments on Monday, before Second Reading, which is not the normal way, and, secondly, allowing these measures to last for 90 days before approval by Parliament and then to be renewed every 30 days thereafter?
Mr Rees-Mogg
I would look more favourably on the switching on and off mechanism, which, although not previously used, is a means of limiting these powers rather than extending them. I do not think it has been done before, but it ensures that the powers will be activated only when necessary and, when unneeded, will be removed. I think that is a step in favour of maintaining as much liberty as possible. I recognise that it is a long Bill, and I pay tribute to a parliamentary counsel for their work, which has been really remarkable in the short space of time available. It is important that these measures are passed with consensus. The hon. Gentleman has made his point; I am sure it will be—
Mr Rees-Mogg
I had not forgotten amendments. I believe there is a motion in my name to allow amendments to be tabled before Second Reading, but I cannot give the hon. Gentleman all the comfort he wants on the change of time limit.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
The Leader of the House and others have rightly talked about proper scrutiny of what the Government are doing, as rather highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). The Leader of the House was slightly disingenuous, if I may say so, when he talked about the Liaison Committee being delayed by this House. It was actually a power grab by the Government to impose a Chair from outside its membership that has caused the delay. Nevertheless, it is vital that that Committee is up and running, and it could be a hugely useful place for this House, if it had to shrink down its activities, to question Ministers directly and the Prime Minister about actions, especially if we are living under draconian legislation, which is likely to be passed next week. Will the Leader of the House give us some comfort on that issue?
On the point about the motion on Tuesday relating to appointments to the Parliamentary Works Sponsor Body, will we now finally see a group of professionals dealing with the northern estate and making sure that in the midst of this crisis, having had flood and pestilence, we do not see this place burned by fire as well?
Mr Rees-Mogg
A great deal of work has been done on fire safety in this building, with measures implemented that will ensure that we are much better protected than we were. That is very important. People will notice that the state rooms in Speaker’s House are currently not usable because fire safety measures are being implemented, so that is taking place.
As regards the Liaison Committee, I think it would be a very novel constitutional development to think that it could replace the whole House, and I am not sure that that would be something that I would welcome.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Before anyone was quarantined for coronavirus, 1 million Uighur Muslims were in isolated camps run by Chinese Government authorities. The combination of limited access to medical resources and high populations of elderly detainees could lead to a humanitarian disaster if the virus reaches the camps. Indeed, it may already be there. Will the Leader of the House arrange for a statement on this important issue?
Mr Rees-Mogg
I am always grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his campaigning for religious freedom, irrespective of the religion for which he believes there should be freedom, which is wholly admirable. We have consistently expressed our serious concerns both to China and at the UN about the human rights situation in Xinjiang, including extrajudicial detention of over 1 million Uighurs and other minorities in “political re-education” camps. The Foreign Secretary raised the issue with his Chinese counterpart, State Councillor and Foreign Minister Wang Yi, on 9 March, and we expressed our concerns in the UK in a national statement at the UN Human Rights Council earlier this month. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that this is being taken very seriously by the Government.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
The Leader of the House is responsible for protecting the rights of Members of Parliament as well as being part of the Government. Earlier, he mentioned the need to have regular statements here in the House, but I remind him that the Health Secretary came to the House under an urgent question on Monday, the Chancellor came here only after he had made exactly the same statement to the press, and the Education Secretary came with no plan on closing schools six weeks into the crisis. Scrutiny by this House is absolutely crucial. Today, the Cabinet Office is to publish a list of essential workers who will be able to send their children to school. That should be scrutinised by this House. A statement should be made in this House so that we can scrutinise the list. We need more statements from more Departments, not fewer. The Government need to up their act, because it is clear that we have exposed a number of failings in the Government through our scrutiny. It is important that that list is published here, so that we can scrutinise it.
Mr Rees-Mogg
I think the scrutiny has been carried out well by this House. Both the Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Education were questioned for the best part of two hours, which is pretty comprehensive scrutiny, with Members having the opportunity to raise constituents’ concerns and to make points that are valuable to the Government to take on board as they consider their policy developments. I am a great believer in parliamentary scrutiny. I believe our adversarial system is a very good way of improving decision making, so I am personally committed to it, as are Her Majesty’s Government.
David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)
Whether it is producing ventilators or acquiring hotels, there is clearly a role for the private sector to contribute towards this national crisis. I have a major soap manufacturer in my constituency, Queenslie’s Soapworks, which is happy to pitch in, but the company needs to know if it is to up production, which it can do within 24 hours. Can we have a statement from the Government on what is expected from the private sector, particularly in the production of things like hand sanitisers and soap?
Mr Rees-Mogg
That is an extremely helpful question. I will ensure that the hon. Gentleman’s constituency company is brought to the attention of the relevant Ministry to ensure that, if more quantities of soap are needed, the company can be involved. The private sector will be crucial in this effort in co-operating with what the Government are doing and changing production to produce ventilators, and I am sure there is a need to produce other things for which there is now greater demand. I am grateful to him for his helpful suggestion.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
Like other hon. Members, I have constituents stranded overseas. David and Anne Clements, who run a small business in my constituency, are stranded in Quito in Ecuador. They were due to fly home tomorrow, but there are no flights and no prospect of any in the immediate future. Could the Leader of the House arrange for the Foreign Secretary to make a further statement—he seemed to rule out repatriation in previous statements—and perhaps persuade him to attempt more co-operation with other Governments, so that, if necessary, flights could be arranged for people of different nationalities to bring them safely home?
Mr Rees-Mogg
The hon. Gentleman makes a helpful point, and the Government have previously co-operated with other nations on repatriation flights. The situation is developing and evolving and the ability to bring people home has become harder in recent days, but as I said earlier, the Foreign Secretary is working very hard on this and is in discussion with the airlines.
Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD)
I add my voice to the voices of all those MPs who have called for an urgent statement on what the Government are doing to repatriate UK nationals. I have one constituent who is in a party of five in a military hospital in Hanoi in Vietnam. They are staying in filthy conditions, surrounded by cockroaches and dead rats, and despite writing to the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on Tuesday, I have had no reply. I have three constituents who are stuck in Peru. They have been told not to buy a private ticket, but to stay where they are and not even to attempt to get to an airport. We need to know from the Minister, in this House, when and how our constituents can get home.
Mr Rees-Mogg
It is not is easy as that because there are different problems in different countries, and therefore, simply to say when people can get home is not within the gift of the Government; different practices are being followed in different countries. However, I note that the hon. Lady has not received a reply to a particular inquiry and I will ensure that that is taken up so that a reply is brought to her in a reasonable amount of time.
Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)
I thank the Leader of the House for stressing how important it is that Members here are well informed, but to the outside world, it seems like the business of the House is business as usual. To echo the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Clive Efford), I suggest that we need more frequent updates or statements by the many different Departments that are being impacted on by this crisis, and not only that, but we need daily reporting from the Health Secretary to explain the number of cases, tests, and deaths and the amount of equipment that we are getting out to our much needed hospitals. Only then can we inform our constituents of how this crisis is impacting on our communities.
Mr Rees-Mogg
The House has adjusted its programme to allow Members to be updated at unusual times. Thanks to Mr Speaker’s flexibility, statements have been coming on at times when other business was taking place, and the Opposition graciously allowed their Opposition day to be interrupted yesterday at an early time for a statement to be made, so I think our procedures are being adapted. As I look around the Chamber, I notice that social distancing is being pretty well practised, with broadly the only exception being my opposite number, the right hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz)—[Interruption.] And a couple of Government Ministers, too.
We are trying to get the balance right and understand the Government’s message. What is the Government’s message? It is that social distancing is advised for all of us and strongly advised for those over 70 or with certain serious medical conditions, but the Government have not said that businesses should not carry on, and our business carries on in this Chamber. That is in line with Government advice—there is no contradiction between social distancing and continuing with business, as the other half of the hon. Gentleman’s question points towards.
Right hon. and hon. Members want to hold the Government to account, and that means we need to be here to do that, but there again, a balance needs to be struck. My right hon. Friend the Health Secretary has come to update the House often, but he also has considerable ministerial responsibilities—particularly heavy ones at the moment—and I think the House ought to be reasonable in what it asks of him. If he were to be here every day for two or three hours, that would be two or three hours when he was not able to attend to his ministerial business. Getting that balance right is important. In terms of my role, I recognise that I must look at it from both directions—from the point of view not only of the House, with the House being informed so that it can hold to account, but of what it is reasonable to ask of Ministers.
Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP)
May I give the Leader of the House an opportunity to clarify his answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Deidre Brock), when we talked about repatriating citizens to the UK? The Leader of the House said that the Government would do whatever they can, and I am slightly concerned that that contrasts with the Prime Minister’s rhetoric, which is that we will do “Whatever it takes.” I think we should be looking to do whatever it takes to get our people back home to this country.
In addition to that, we heard a litany of challenges facing small and large businesses in our constituencies this morning during the urgent question. Businesses in in Angus and Arbroath in my constituency are facing challenging situations in getting their brokers, their insurers and, crucially, their reinsurers to face up straightforwardly to what the obligations are under business continuity claims. May we have a statement setting out what the Government’s expectations of the insurance industry are? Is this being done in tandem with the Association of British Insurers?
Mr Rees-Mogg
I reiterate that the Government and, in particular, the Foreign Secretary are working hard on the repatriation issue, but may I add that I will report to him after this session the widespread concern of so many Members? This is not just one of those things that has come up from one Member with a particular case; it seems to be a concern across the House—I see nodding and even hands going up—so I will pass that on in an underlined fashion.
There are indeed a litany of challenges faced by businesses, which is why the Economic Secretary to the Treasury was here for an urgent question earlier, and I understand the point that is being made about insurers. It is difficult for the Government to make a single statement on what will be a variety of contractual obligations, but insurers, thanks to the intervention of the Economic Secretary, have already behaved well in relation to businesses that have not been formally told to close but have de facto had to close, and there was a helpful announcement made by the Chancellor a couple of days ago. The insurance industry, very much criticised, is in some cases already behaving well.
Points of Order
Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In his response to my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie), the Leader of the House answered, in effect, that the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 was not available for this particular emergency. Knowing my right hon. Friend, I am sure that he was repeating, in absolute good faith, the briefing he had been given, but I was here and lived through the passage of that Act, and that is not my understanding of it. More importantly, it is not how a number of public lawyers understand the Act. So could you, Mr Deputy Speaker, undertake to get the Speaker’s Counsel to give this House an opinion as to whether that Act is applicable before we move the emergency legislation next week?
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. One key aspect of the 2004 Act is that the use of powers has to be approved by Parliament within seven days and the powers can last for only 30 days before they have to be renewed by Parliament. Indeed, the Act contains specific measures to ensure that the House sits if we are in recess or even if we are prorogued. So could you feed that into the process of answering the right hon. Gentleman?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
It seems to me that both points of order are supplementary business questions, but the Leader of the House is still in his place and will have heard both points of order, and I am sure that those on the Treasury Bench will reflect on what both Members have said today.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. You will know that Mr Speaker prides himself on standing up for the rights of Back Benchers, who, perhaps more than ever, need to stand up for the rights of their constituents. The House is due to rise on 31 March. The Leader of the House spoke about potential flexibility on that, and I understand why he did so. Can you give an assurance to my constituents, especially as the Government are seeking unprecedented powers, possibly without review or with review months in the future, that this House will sit for as long as it can, in order that the Government are held to account?
Mr Deputy Speaker
I listened carefully to what the Leader of the House had to say during responses to questions. It seems to me that the commitment from the Government was exactly what the hon. Gentleman is seeking.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In business questions, the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee mentioned a motion that the Leader brought forward this week in relation to Select Committees, which created a new post outside normal Standing Orders of Chair of the Liaison Committee and put a named individual in the motion to take the post. That flies in the face of the normal practice adopted by the House for many years. The Chairs of Select Committees should be elected from among the whole House, with all Members having an opportunity to put their name forward, albeit on a party-balanced basis, for those particular positions. Could you determine, Mr Deputy Speaker, whether it would be possible for the Leader of the House to table an amended motion, leaving that part of the motion out and allowing the Liaison Committee and all Select Committees to be set up forthwith?
Mr Deputy Speaker
I should make the observation that Mr Speaker is very keen to ensure that the rights of Back Benchers are properly respected. Therefore, I will make absolutely certain the hon. Gentleman’s comments are passed on to Mr Speaker when I vacate the Chair.
bills presented
Trade Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Secretary Elizabeth Truss, supported by The Prime Minister, Secretary Dominic Raab, Secretary George Eustice, Secretary Alister Jack, Secretary Simon Hart and Secretary Brandon Lewis presented a Bill to make provision about the implementation of international trade agreements; to make provision establishing the Trade Remedies Authority and conferring functions on it; and to make provision about the collection and disclosure of information relating to trade.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 120) with explanatory notes (Bill 120-EN)
Fire Safety bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Secretary Priti Patel, supported by The Prime Minister, Secretary Matt Hancock, Secretary Robert Jenrick, Secretary Simon Hart and James Brokenshire presented a Bill to make provision about the application of the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 where a building contains two or more sets of domestic premises; and to confer power to amend that order in future for the purposes of changing the premises to which it applies.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 121) with explanatory notes (Bill 121-EN)
Coronavirus Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Secretary Matt Hancock, supported by The Prime Minister, Secretary Priti Patel, Michael Gove, Secretary Robert Jenrick, Secretary Gavin Williamson, Secretary Thérèse Coffey, Secretary Robert Buckland, Penny Mordaunt and Jo Churchill presented a Bill to make provision in connection with coronavirus; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 122) with explanatory notes (Bill 122-EN)
Mr Deputy Speaker
I remind the House that Members may now table amendments to the Coronavirus Bill. I encourage hon. Members—Chris Bryant is already going—who want to table amendments to do so by sending them to the Public Bill Office by email from their parliamentary network account. If Members would like advice on amendments, I encourage them to phone the Public Bill Office rather than visit in person.
Backbench Business
Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review
(4 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am sorry to have delayed my point of order, but it is pertinent particularly to this business. May I ask why the Financial Secretary’s excellent biography of Adam Smith has not been laid on the Table as one of the papers pertinent to this debate?
You will appreciate that Adam Smith was absolutely categoric in his view of taxation—that it should be fair, proportionate, not retrospective and not arbitrary, which is clearly the subject matter of this afternoon’s debate.
Mr Deputy Speaker
It is as if the right hon. Gentleman read my mind. I am sure that those on the Treasury Bench will have heard his comments.
Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House believes that the Loan Charge is an unjust and retrospective tax; notes that the law on the Loan Charge was not settled until 2017; and calls on HMRC to cease action on loans paid before 2017.
The motion is in my name and those of the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Ruth Cadbury) and my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), and is supported by some 40 other Members of the House.
I start by commending my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne) for having the courage to beat me to the punch in this particular debate. It may seem strange to outside observers that in the midst of a global pandemic and a huge national crisis that we are talking about a tax technicality—at least, that is how it might appear. But actually it is one of the great virtues of our country that no matter what the crisis, whether it is a pandemic or warfare, the House always pays attention to issues of natural justice. We never ignore issues of natural justice, even in times of crisis. As a matter of justice, which this is, it is not a party political issue. In politics and our business, justice is a matter of honour that we deliver to the British people, and that is what we intend to do today.
The loan charge is an injustice with very large consequences. We have all met and listened to constituents who are facing utter financial ruin as a result of this policy. It is ruining people’s lives. There have been at least seven suicides caused by the stress, anxiety and financial hardship of this policy. To give the House a flavour of that—because it does not apply just to those who have committed suicide but to those who are under stress—here is what the family of one loan charge victim told the all-party group about his suicide note:
“He wrote about being at the end of his tether with the Loan Charge matter. He wrote such awful things about himself things that just weren’t true, that he clearly thought about himself at the time. He wrote that he did not set out to do such wrongdoings; he wrote about being unable to speak to his GP about his anxiety as he was ashamed, his fear of going to prison, his disgust in himself for getting mixed up in the Loan Charge and his belief that he would now go to hell.”
In the case of this individual, the loan charge policy took not just his money, but his self-respect and eventually his life. And there could be more. According to the loan charge all-party group, 39% of those affected have had suicidal thoughts. I think the Minister will be hard pushed to think of another Government policy that has caused more than a third of those affected to consider suicide. It is no surprise that it is having that effect on people. Some 68% have suffered depression, 71% face bankruptcy, and 49% could lose their homes. I said in the previous debate on this issue that the power to tax has the power to destroy, and that has never been more clearly demonstrated than here.
Sir Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD)
I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on bringing this debate to the House. In the all-party loan charge group, we took evidence from a number of family members of people who had committed suicide as a result of the loan charge, and I can underline the point that he is making. The impact on people who had been law-abiding and hard-working throughout their lives has been quite traumatic. In a particular case that I remember—I am sure that the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Ruth Cadbury) will remember this—the person who took his own life did not owe a huge amount of money. It was the fact that he had been made to feel like a criminal when he was anything but a criminal.
Mr Davis
The right hon. Gentleman makes an extraordinarily powerful point in his own skilful way. I say this back to him: his group took that evidence before the added economic stress of the coronavirus. Many of the individuals affected will be contractors. They will be people who perhaps have no rights at the moment and certainly no way of finding the money to meet the demands on them. Even small sums of money will bring enormous pressure to bear on the individual. So he is right: this is not some vague and abstract tax issue. This is about people’s lives. That is why I was pleased when the Government launched the Amyas Morse review into the policy, and in December, he published a detailed report. I commend him for his heroic attempt to find a compromise, because that is really what he did. The facts and the conclusions are a little different, and that is because he was trying to find a compromise. However, when it comes to matters of natural justice, I am afraid that a compromise is nowhere near enough. Such a detailed review deserves detailed scrutiny, and I am going to spend a small amount of time looking at his central findings.
Sir Amyas recommended a December 2010 cut-off date for the loan charge. All loans before that date will be out of the loan charge scope. In a piece for The House magazine some time ago I referred to that as arbitrary, and Sir Amyas responded. He said:
“It is not an ‘arbitrary’ date. It is the date from which the Finance Act 2011 ensured that tax was charged on income paid through loan schemes.”
But that simply did not make sense, even in its own terms. The Finance Act was not law in December 2010; it was simply draft legislation. It was not passed for another eight months—until July 2011. HMRC does not, or certainly should not, take its instruction from draft legislation. It certainly should not take it from press releases, which was what actually went out on that day. It takes its instruction from settled law—and the words “settled law” matter.
Sir Amyas went on to argue in his piece that, once the 2011 Act was passed,
“tax should have been understood as being due from that point.”
But even in 2011 the law was far from clear after the Government suffered a series of defeats in the courts.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
My constituents just do not have any extra money—they have used it all up each year. After 2010, they were continually told by financial experts and the companies they were contracted to, “All is well—carry on.” Suddenly in 2017, they faced a massive bill, and they just cannot cope.
Mr Davis
I am talking about how we got to that position. I will come on to talk about the financial status of these people, but my hon. Friend is right: these are not rich people.
HMRC, which has claimed that this is clear law, lost the Dextra Accessories Ltd and Sempra Metals Ltd cases in 2002 and 2008 respectively, when the courts specifically rejected the idea that the loans could be subject to income tax. HMRC then lost a case in 2012 and again in 2014, demonstrating that the 2011 legislation had not clarified the law to the satisfaction of the courts. That is a key point—it was not a question of it not being to our satisfaction or our constituents’ satisfaction, but it was not to the satisfaction of the courts. The fact that HMRC lost twice and then won twice tells us that even experienced, highly informed judges spending a great deal of time studying these cases found it a difficult issue to resolve.
Sir Desmond Swayne
Is not the proof of the pudding in the fact that the 2017 legislation was introduced? The loan charge itself is standing proof that previous legislation was not sufficient to tax the people involved, otherwise that would have been done.
Mr Davis
As usual, my right hon. Friend trumps my argument in advance, but I will come back to that in a second.
What that demonstrates—and what my right hon. Friend’s point demonstrates—is a failure of the Treasury and HMRC to write clear and comprehensible legislation. If the judges cannot understand it, what chance is there for ordinary laymen—people who cannot afford to employ an accountant? We are not talking about city slickers or international bankers; we are talking about locum nurses, social workers, careworkers and hospital cleaners.
Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab)
The right hon. Gentleman’s point that these are not city slickers and tax-avoiding, money-grabbing sorts reminds me of my constituent, Caroline Cheasty. She was a social worker in the public sector, with 24 years’ experience in local authorities. She had a career break, and when she wanted to go back as a locum, she was advised to either form a plc or go with an umbrella company—that is what she did. She came to my surgery in tears. Does he agree that the Government should go after the promoters of these schemes, not the little people?
Mr Davis
I do. The hon. Lady tempts me into a political point, because the Blair Government were the most active promoter of these schemes, but she is right in general.
When something is as unclear as this tax law obviously was, we do not take the date of resolution from the first date that HMRC wins—we do not keep going until we get the answer that the Government want. We take it from the day it is finally resolved in the Supreme Court. The case was not finally and definitively settled by the Supreme Court until 2017, when it found in HMRC’s favour on the Rangers, Dextra and Sempra cases. The Government—this relates to the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West—then passed further legislation to clarify the law. Even after the court case, they passed legislation to clarify the law. If it was so clear, why did we need a new law in 2017? That is the fundamental point.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
My right hon. Friend is making an unanswerable case in logic, but I would like to put another political point to him. The cause of tax avoidance is not normally associated with such parties as the Labour party or the Liberal Democrats, but I am sure he would acknowledge that Members from both those parties have played a leading role in trying to put this injustice right.
Mr Davis
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. I started by saying that this is not a political issue; it is an issue of honour. As we would expect from our House—one of the greatest Parliaments in the world, if not the greatest—all sides take part in defending that honour.
Sir Edward Davey
The intervention from the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) was spot on: this has brought the House together. The issue is not about tax avoidance. I think everyone on both sides of the House agrees that tax avoidance should be clamped down on, and there is no disagreement that the loan charge could apply in the future. What has deeply concerned many of us is that this is an offence against the rule of law, which is supposed to be a basic British tradition—one of our core values, which is taught in our schools. I therefore totally agree with the points made by the right hon. Gentleman.
Mr Davis
I thank the right hon. Gentleman—I nearly called him my right hon. Friend, from my days on the Public Accounts Committee.
When financial advisers and accountants could not understand the law, when employers could not understand the law, and when the courts could not agree on the law until 2017, how could an ordinary layperson possibly have understood the law?
The Supreme Court’s eventual decision, overturning three decisions before it, reflects changing national attitudes on the responsibility of the taxpayer—the point the right hon. Gentleman has just lighted on. As a result, one organisation representing the professions involved explicitly changed its guidance to its members. It said:
“Members must not create, encourage or promote tax planning arrangements or structures that…set out to achieve results that are contrary to the clear intention of Parliament in enacting relevant legislation and/or…are highly artificial or highly contrived and seek to exploit shortcomings within the relevant legislation.”
In what year was that changed guidance handed out by the professions? 2017.
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
My right hon. Friend is making some very good points, which I agree with. However, does he not agree that if something looks too good to be true, it usually is? In my business, we have been brought this kind of scheme a number of times by our advisers over the last 30 years, maybe with a barrister’s letter saying, “Don’t worry. It’ll be fine. You can reduce your tax bill hugely by adopting this scheme.” We have always rejected them because we knew the risk. Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is a requirement on the individual who subscribes to one of these schemes to make sure they understand the risks and that there is no guarantee the scheme will actually reduce their tax burden?
Mr Davis
My hon. Friend is, of course, a skilled businessman; he knows what he is doing, and he is across this sort of thing—it is his job to be across it—but I am not so sure we could say that about a locum nurse or a social worker. This issue was actually at the centre of Sir Amyas Morse’s arguments. He took the view that the attitude from 2017 should apply back to 2010, even though the law was not clear. He took the view that the principle of a taxpayer’s responsibility for their own tax affairs must be upheld. That is the point my hon. Friend is making, and it is right—but only when the law is clear. That means that the Government have a responsibility to make the law clear and not to punish ordinary, hard-working taxpayers when Ministers fail to live up to that responsibility.
HMRC itself seems to disagree on the importance of the taxpayer’s responsibility. Why do I say that? Because until 2014, it did not approach the individual taxpayers; it approached the advisers. It approached the companies that insisted—they did not ask, but they insisted—that these locums and social workers took up this option. HMRC went to the advisers until 2014—until the issue suddenly started to become quite controversial.
Last year, the Prime Minister himself commented on this issue. He said:
“The real culprits in this matter, if I may say so, are not so much the individuals themselves who have decided to use the loan charge as a way of minimising their tax exposure. It’s the people who advised them that it was a sensible thing to do. In my view, we should find a way of going after them.”
That is the Prime Minister’s view, and I happen to agree, unusually.
Mr Davis
If the hon. Lady will forgive me, I am trying to constrain my speech to 15 minutes, and it is beginning to be a struggle with so many interventions.
In summary, these people are now suffering because of a history of poorly drafted regulation and legislation and poor management by HMRC, targeted on the wrong people.
On many occasions, the Minister and his predecessor have told me and the House that the loan charge is not retrospective. In his report, Sir Amyas Morse states:
“The Loan Charge can look back 20 years…This design has been described by HMT as ‘retroactive’.”
The report describes the loan charge throughout as backward looking. HMRC denies that it is retrospective; it says it is retroactive. If I may say so, that is a distinction without a difference. When I looked up “retrospective” in a thesaurus, guess what it said? It defined the word as “retroactive or backward looking”.
Mr Davis
Yes, I will send HMRC a copy of Microsoft’s thesaurus. Not only that, but in paragraph 3.8 of his report, Sir Amyas states:
“The Review’s legal advisers found that there was no precedent for that element of the design.”
That is the retroactive, retrospective or backward-looking element. There was no legal precedent for that design. I hope, frankly, that the Government will now stop playing with words and finally concede that this is indeed a retrospective measure—an unprecedented retrospective measure.
The only just, fair and rational resolution is to remove the retrospective nature of the loan charge and set the cut-off date when the law became clear—when the Supreme Court finally settled the matter in 2017 and when the Government felt it necessary to legislate to make clear what they meant in the first place. That is why, as I made clear, if the Government do not act to address this issue, Parliament—all of us who take this very seriously—will have to act for them and make clear that, in the future, HMRC can under no circumstances act retrospectively. If we cannot solve this, here comes a Finance Bill. I suggest that the Minister should make one simple adjustment to his plans before they are published: change December 2010 to July 2017. That would resolve the issue. It would lift enormous pressure off 50,000 of our constituents, and it would put the Government in a morally defensible, justifiable and decent position.
Tax law is the only part of English law where “innocent until proven guilty” does not apply. If HMRC tells us we owe it money, then, until we prove otherwise, we owe it money. It is therefore very important that the law is clear—that it is not subject to reinterpretation by subsequent Governments and it does not move with social mores or whatever; it is simply clear. That is what we have to do. In the interests of natural justice and the financial and mental wellbeing of thousands of our constituents, it is time for the Government to change their mind and remove this harrowing burden from the 50,000 people who have been caught by it.
Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)
I intend to speak for only a couple of minutes. That is partly because of the outstanding introduction from the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), which was clear, logical and unimpeachable—I congratulate him on securing the debate—but partly also because the situation is simple.
I am clear about two facts. First, disguised remuneration loan schemes—DR schemes—were clearly a tax dodge and were used for people to pay less tax. It is absolutely right, as the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey) hinted, that we should close down those loopholes. However, it is also clear that the loan charge was put in place unfairly and unjustly as a retrospective measure. What is the proof of that particular pudding? Well, the right hon. Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne) beat us all to it, and he is absolutely right. Why on earth did we need to introduce the 2017 legislation to introduce the 2019 loan charge if, as the Government and HMRC claim, these schemes were already illegal? They were not. That is why the loan charge was brought in. It is utterly wrong to bring in retrospective legislation and retrospective taxation as a result.
HMRC is entirely within its rights to look at up to five years of someone’s tax records, but only if the information that the individual has given to HMRC can be proved to be incorrect. We are talking about individuals who had their correct tax returns signed off by HMRC, which agreed that they were perfectly legitimate and lawful under current tax law but then reopened them, not because there was a suggestion that the individuals had provided incorrect information, but because the law had changed or was not quite as HMRC thought it was at the time it signed off those tax regulations. That is HMRC’s problem, not the problem of my constituents.
Fortunately, I do not know of any constituents who have taken their own life, but I do know of constituents who have lost their business and their house. One constituent’s marriage broke up. One young lad doing his first contracting job was told on the first day, “This is the way that we get paid in this place.” He did not know any better; he was 21 years old and just out of university. That was how he was encouraged by the employer and, incidentally, his colleagues to undertake the scheme. He does not yet know what his liability will be. Will it be £16,000? Will it be £60,000? The uncertainty is dragging him down. At the moment, he does not even feel able to work.
I congratulate the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and echo the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton, who says that it is not a party issue. Members will agree that it is a question of natural justice and fairness, and of not reopening tax returns that had previously been signed off by HMRC. By all means let us close the loophole, but let us not drag people into this dreadful sense of natural injustice.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. Thirteen other hon. Members—in fact, more than that—want to get in, so I plead for short contributions of the length that we have just heard from Christian Matheson, otherwise we will simply not do justice to the next debate. I call Julian Lewis.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
During business questions before this debate, I asked about the perennial issue of war widows whose pensions were stopped because they remarried or cohabited, and we were told in no uncertain terms that those pensions would not be reinstated retrospectively. On 6 February, I tabled a question to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who is present, about the apparent difference between the approach to war widows, who will not get retrospective pensions, and people who will be hit retroactively by the loan charge. I was told in the reply that the loan charge is not retrospective. We now know that the reason it is not retrospective is that it is retroactive, even if the two things are exactly the same.
I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) for taking the initiative over several months to try to put this right, to the all-party parliamentary group ably led by the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey), and to our former colleague, Greg Mulholland, who has done a great deal of background research in support.
My understanding of the situation can be summarised as follows. First, uncertainties arising from IR35 legislation led tax experts to approve umbrella company loan schemes. Secondly, many self-employed public sector workers, among others, had no idea that they were being paid by means of such loans. Thirdly, if HMRC had been doing its job properly, it would have sanctioned the purveyors of those schemes and warned the victims, as soon as they sent in their first annual returns, that they were making themselves liable for charges.
Fourthly—this is quite incredible—such schemes are still being sold to thousands of people who clearly still have no idea what is waiting for them from HMRC further down the line. Fifthly, the Morse review’s decision to exempt people affected prior to 2010 leaves people who were bullied into making large payments relating to the years before 2010 unable to get those settlements rescinded. People actually paid money before the Morse review for a period that has now been exempted, and they could probably negotiate better settlements, if any were still needed, than those for which they paid money that they cannot now get back, because they cannot reopen the negotiation.
Sixthly, people acted in good faith on the best professional advice that they could get. They should not have been left in blissful ignorance for years on end by a Government body that is now playing catch-up. Because of the time constraints, I will not go through the harrowing personal testimonies, but will stick to a couple more theoretical points and then conclude.
Seventhly, it has been pointed out that there was something called part 7A ITEPA—part 7A of the Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003—which came into effect in December 2010, and this has been cited as justifying the decision for the loan charge to apply from 2010 onwards. However, I am advised by Alan Williams FCA, a constituent as well as a highly qualified professional, that this does not apply to the self-employed, so the self-employed who were so often the victims of this set-up ought not to be caught by a provision—by the assumed knowledge of a provision—that did not, in any case, apply to them.
An eighth point is that the loan charge is not, in any case, full and final settlement, and therefore does not close open years. Even those paying the loan charge will see HMRC continuing to pursue further sums for so-called protected years in which loans were received. The recommendation of Mr Williams is that those accepting the loan charge should be afforded finality by making the loan charge full and final settlement.
I come to the conclusion that HMRC fell down on the job. It was asleep at the wheel. It bullied the victims, and let the villains who created these schemes get away with it. HMRC in this case is not just a bully; it is a negligent bully. The Government should know when they are beaten both morally and intellectually, stop flogging this dead horse and finally do the right thing.
Sir Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD)
It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis). I am delighted to say that on this occasion I agree with every word he said. It is the nature of this debate that it has brought those on all sides together. For people who normally are not necessarily in total agreement on economic and tax affairs, this has brought us together. That is for the reason the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) gave: it is about natural justice.
I set up the loan charge APPG last year, and I think it has become a group that illustrates the way in which the House has come together. We now have 227 members. My co-chairs are the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Ruth Cadbury) and the right hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning). I should say that he wanted to be here today, but he has a family issue that has kept him away.
Not only do we represent colleagues from across the House, but I believe we have gone about our business in a pretty professional way, with the support of the Loan Charge Action Group as our secretariat. We have produced reports in the past, and as a group we have reviewed the Morse review itself and published our response. That follows two witness sessions, where we had tax experts and loan charge victims. We have received more written evidence, and we have built on our previous work. This 63-page report, published today, has 17 key findings on the Morse review and it makes 19 recommendations.
I have been on a number of all-party groups during my time in the House, as I am sure you have, Mr Deputy Speaker, and it is relatively unusual for an APPG to do such a thorough and detailed report in such a short time. If I have one disagreement with the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden it is that I wish he had given us a little bit more time to do our work before this debate, although I am really pleased that we have got this debate. I hope the Minister, whatever he says from the Dispatch Box in response to this debate, will undertake to read the APPG’s report and to respond to it.
When the Morse review was set up, we welcomed it; it is what we had been seeking. We had meetings with Sir Amyas, and we gave him a huge amount of material. It is fair to say—I put this on record on behalf of the APPG—that we welcome many aspects of his report. He talks about how unusual the loan charge is and how unique it is in respect of how it overrides statutory time limits, which are meant to protect the individual taxpayer, and how it looks back over 20 years. What an astonishing piece of legislation to put forward.
The report has a number of good recommendations. For example, it says that if the loan charge continues, after 10 years of repayment any remaining liability should be written off if the taxpayer has earnings of less than £30,000. One would have thought that that was a reasonable recommendation, even if the Government want to stand by the loan charge, but they have rejected it. The Government rejected even that relatively modest recommendation.
I would have thought that Her Majesty’s Treasury and HMRC would have agreed with all the recommendations, in the spirit of the Morse review, but they have not. They have rejected some in full and some in part, and they interpret some in a way that is clearly not intended by the Morse review. For example, one group of taxpayers about whom I have been most worried is those who have had closed tax years—in other words, their tax affairs, properly given to HMRC with all the relevant material and back-up, had been accepted and the tax year had been closed. There can be no doubt that going back to such a year is complete and utter retrospection, yet the Government are still seeking to apply the loan charge to those years. They have narrowed in a most outrageous way the way we consider the concept of a closed tax year.
I am really unhappy with the way that the Government have responded to the Morse review itself, but the review does have a big flaw at its heart. Because the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden set out that flaw in detail, I do not need to speak for so long. In essence, Morse says that the law that was passed in 2011 in respect of the Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003, and particularly part 7A, made it clear. Now, the right hon. Gentleman showed that it did not make it clear, even for those people directly linked to it, because of the timings that he set out.
In specific detail, the expert witnesses whom we saw in the APPG made it clear that that legislation covered only some of the schemes to which the loan charge applies—those schemes that involved employees who were being paid via a third party—but completely omitted entire existing schemes that involve the self-employed, companies and loans paid directly to employees. There can be no doubt that the legislation on which Morse was relying does not apply to many people, because they are just not covered by that legislation. It is not a question of debate; it is just a fact.
At the time, experts looked at the legislation and responded in the way that one would expect: they looked at what the legislation said and changed their advice accordingly. Indeed, HMRC’s advice was based on what was actually in the Act, surprisingly enough. There is a 2016 technical note to which our report refers and in which HMRC specifically says that that is what the legislation said.
I find it quite extraordinary that successive Ministers have tried to defend this double-talk from HMRC. As the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden said, no court rulings in any way interpreted legislation in the way that the Morse review does. I have a huge amount of respect for Sir Amyas Morse, but on this point he is entirely wrong. I do not read all the tax literature, but the tax experts who have contacted us are really clear that Morse is getting the legislation, as it was understood the time, completely wrong.
Bob Stewart
When the right hon. Gentleman took evidence from people who are subject to the loan charge, did he receive any evidence to the effect that their chartered accountants or financial analysts since 2010 had told them—the people they were being paid by—that they were in real danger and had better change the way in which they paid their taxes?
Sir Edward Davey
We took no such evidence and no such evidence was proffered to us. It might exist out there, but we have certainly not seen it.
I do not want to detain the House any longer, as I have made my core point. The whole reason why this has been such a big issue and has united the House is that the loan charge is retrospective, and that is unfair and wrong. We have to defend individual taxpayers, even if we think they might have been ill-advised in the first place. We have to defend the law. Why do we meet in this House? Why do we pass laws, unless we come back here and say, “Government—you’re breaking the law”, and hold them to account for that? That is our constitutional job, and I thank right hon. and hon. Members from across the House for doing their duty.
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)
I, too, congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and others on securing this important debate, and thank the Backbench Business Committee for allocating the time. It may not be the most pressing issue that we are facing at the moment, but it does address the deeply held concerns of constituents caught up in this injustice; and I say “injustice” because I truly believe that that is what it is.
This debate is to look at the Morse review, which did have some welcome outcomes, but I do not believe for one minute that it went far enough. I believe that everyone has a duty and an obligation to pay their fair share of tax, and that anyone who evades tax should rightly be sought out and made to pay. But that is not what we are dealing with here. In many of these cases, we are dealing with ordinary people who were either forced or persuaded into schemes that they were advised were perfectly legitimate and approved by HMRC. And there lies the problem. By way of example, I will share with the House an account of one of my constituents who is caught up in this situation and is facing a bill for tens of thousands of pounds, and potential financial ruin. I know that the Government and HMRC have said that that will not be the outcome, but after looking at the details of his case, I assure the House that it would be.
My constituent is an intelligent individual, but by no means a tax expert. When he gave up his job in 2011, deciding to work freelance so that he could get a better work-life balance, he was advised to join a freelancer scheme—a scheme that was established and promoted by an ICAEW-regulated chartered accountant. The promotional literature unambiguously stated that the accountant’s scheme was
“anodyne, with no tax avoidance motive (HMRC words) involved”,
“legal and compliant” and
“supported by tax counsel’s opinion ”.
At no point did the chartered accountant mention any known or future possible risks, either verbally or in writing.
The chartered accountant simply positioned my constituent’s use of the scheme—through which he would receive a combination of salary and loans—as perfectly legal and an “effective tax planning tool”. That said, in mid-2012, having noted some adverse media coverage of the subject of tax avoidance, my constituent sought confirmation from the promoter that the scheme remained truly “anodyne”, as had been stated when he joined it. The promoter’s response was unequivocal—that nothing had changed.
Later in 2012, a copy of an HMRC letter addressed to the promoter and dated 20 June 2012 was forwarded to my constituent in validation of the chartered accountant’s previous assurances that the scheme was legitimate. The letter confirmed that for the purposes of mandatory disclosure under disclosure of tax avoidance schemes legislation, HMRC’s anti-avoidance group had formally reviewed the scheme and determined that it could apply no “hallmarks” of tax avoidance. Therefore, and of critical significance, HMRC stated that the scheme was “not disclosable”.
The unambiguous contents of HMRC’s letter gave my constituent absolutely no reason other than to conclude that its anti-avoidance group had undertaken a full, diligent review of the scheme and that, in the absence of any adverse findings, he could continue to use the scheme safely. But even then, as a cautious person, my constituent sought further confirmation from the promoter and was again reassured. Why would he not carry on using a scheme when he has sought so many reassurances? I restate: if HMRC had even the slightest concerns about the scheme’ legitimacy and/or my constituent’s use of it, its failure to openly communicate such concerns denied my constituent the clear and obvious opportunity to immediately depart the scheme in mid-2012.
As it is, HMRC notified my constituent in late 2013 that it had opened a formal section 9A inquiry into his use of the scheme, at which point he immediately ceased to use it. Regardless of that, to this day, more than six years after that section 9A inquiry into my constituent’s use of the scheme was launched, it remains open, and he has yet to receive any technical argument from HMRC as to why it considers the scheme unlawful.
It is very clear to me that HMRC sees the loan charge as a panacea for its historical and obvious failures. It is attempting to bypass my constituent’s basic right as a taxpayer to have a court rule on any alleged additional liability. We have heard from countless hon. and right hon. Members, and from esteemed independent tax practitioners, that HMRC must at the very least be forced to desist from using the loan charge to drive through these retrospective, unproven and ordinarily out-of-time claims, which predate the enactment of the Finance Act 2017.
I strongly agree with that viewpoint and feel that it would be undeniably unfair and entirely unreasonable to pursue people from before that date. Therefore, in the light of the uncertainties caused by the current situation with coronavirus and its effect on freelancer’s ability to work and earn at this time, may I please ask that the existing legislation be amended so that the loan charge is made prospective from 2017 onwards, which would remove at least one level of uncertainty for this important group of people at this very difficult time?
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. Colleagues will see that a number of hon. and right hon. Members wish to speak in this debate and the next debate. If we are to get everybody in fairly, I would ask that speeches should be five minutes.
Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Ind)
It is indisputable that everyone should pay their fair share of tax to fund our public services, and if recent events have taught us anything, they have illustrated that we all rely on the response of those services and that any future threat of funding must be resisted. However, the Government’s current position on this issue is, frankly, quite wrong and unjust. At £35 billion, the Government’s official estimate of tax losses is now the highest it has ever been, yet the true figure of tax avoidance by the super-rich and corporations could be as high as £120 billion a year.
My constituent Doug Aitken is facing a significant bill as a result of the loan charge. This is money that he simply does not have, and if HMRC persists, he will lose his home and his car, and, because he is self-employed, the resulting bankruptcy will lead to the loss of his business and his personal contribution to the Exchequer. Like many, he took independent advice from tax experts before entering the scheme and was reassured that it was operating entirely within the law. He declared his income and submitted his tax returns. He set money aside, ready to pay any tax liabilities, and he kept the money for the HMRC look-back period. He is not alone; a number of other constituents have contacted me about this matter. Some are retired or are now surviving on benefits. They simply do not have the resources to pay. Others have spoken of the significant impact on their mental health. Although the changes to the look-back period from the Morse report may exempt thousands from being pursued, thousands more are still facing the prospect of absolute financial ruin. This is nothing short of a disgrace and meaningful recovery is very unlikely, whereas bankruptcy is almost certain.
In closing, I would like to offer my reflections on the key argument put forward by Sir Amyas in favour of recovery. In his recent contribution to The House magazine, he explained that the advice he took about legality was from tax experts. However, he also notes that the contributions from those who entered the scheme’s evidence that they did not understand the implications—that is, they are not tax experts. Although Sir Amyas might have sympathy with the loan charge recipients, pursuing them now is very unlikely to lead to any meaningful recovery.
I previously served the health service ombudsman as a clinical expert, and I was advised that I should not assess the treatment and care provided against my gold standard practice level. Rather, my judgment should be tempered to a level of what one could reasonably expect. I would respectfully suggest that the current policy has measured those in the grip of HMRC over the loan charge against the gold standard of tax experts and not, as it should have, against the standard of what one would reasonably expect a lay person to understand. Although I firmly believe that individuals should pay the taxes they owe, ruinous action from HMRC will help no one. The Government must act now to completely remove all retrospective action.
Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) (Con)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) on securing the debate, and all Members who are members of the all-party parliamentary group for being here today. Having been in this Chamber for only four months, I am not as experienced as others in complicated tax arrangements, but, very quickly during my election campaign and during my surgeries, this issue has proven to be a huge worry for the many of my hard-working and honest constituents who run small businesses. For me, thankfully, this is not a debate that revolves around complicated tax issues. It is a debate that revolves around fairness and proportionality, and I think the Government have got that drastically wrong. That is where the Morse review has not gone far enough.
Like my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe), I believe that everyone in our country must pay the taxes they owe—individuals, businesses, everybody. That is how a responsible society works. But the people this affects are not tax avoiders, so I have some concerns on behalf of my constituents about some aspects of the Government’s approach. I believe that it is my duty as a constituency MP to bring them up with Ministers.
Many constituents have come to see me at the surgery and have told me the severe pressure that this has put them under; the pressure of making payments and possible insolvency has, in some cases, caused the breakdown of marriages, physical exhaustion, and suicidal thoughts through no fault of their own whatsoever. I am also aware from my constituents that many of those who used some form of disguised remuneration scheme did so at the behest of financial professionals they had hired to advise them. Some were told that these schemes were HMRC compliant. Others were not even told that these schemes were tax avoidance and thought that they were normal procedure.
I want briefly to ask the Minister to consider the following points. Of course, any shortening of the time for which people affected are liable for these payments is welcome, but even after 10 years the payments over three years are too regimented and draconian. What thoughts has the Minister had about lengthening the terms? It is simply not fair of HMRC to impose the retrospectivity that follows from this review. As I have said, many people were advised by financial advisers and are now being penalised because of the late realisation and intransigence of HMRC. Does the Minister accept that that should not be a portent for any decision making on policy in this area? What steps is he taking to share the cost burden with the financial advisers who recommended these schemes? They are getting away scot-free.
Lastly, I want to raise the subject of HMRC. Even in normal times, it is not the most transparent Government Department, or the easiest to deal with; it is not known for its empathy or human nature. I really hope that the Government do not continue down this path, but if they do, it is vital that a bespoke, compassionate team be set up solely to deal with the vulnerable people in our constituencies who are affected by this issue.
Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)
That is a gross understatement of HMRC’s lack of compassion. If we are to move forward, HMRC must give individuals who have suffered as a result of the loan charge situation certainty that there will be finality in the way the issue is dealt with.
Paul Holmes
My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. His point backs up mine. Any team that the Treasury sets up—and there should be one—to deal with people affected by the issue should treat them as people, not as numbers, which is unfortunately how HMRC has a track record of treating them.
Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)
My hon. Friend puts his finger on one of the core points. Who is running the show here? Is it HMRC, or are the Government making sure that law on this matter is paramount? Does he not find it ironic that HMRC’s annual report this year says that HMRC wants a system that can
“be trusted and seen to be fair, with the right safeguards in place to protect customers”?
Does this case not show that it is falling woefully short of meeting that ambition?
Paul Holmes
I agree entirely. This is not the only case of people being treated unfairly by HMRC. I really hope that the Minister listens to the concerns being expressed across the House, particularly about the issue under discussion. There is a wider point here about HMRC. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden said, it has decided to charge people retrospectively although the situation arose through its negligence. Never again—I feel this strongly—should it be allowed to adopt retrospective measures to cover its failure to get its policies in order.
Lastly, the Minister needs to make it clear, hopefully today, that the people affected by this are victims. They are struggling after following advice given to them by independent tax experts. I hope that he will look at lengthening the repayment period, commit to dealing fairly with the people affected by this, and never allow this to happen again. Ideally, he should at the Dispatch Box this afternoon scrap the loan charges affecting so many of my constituents.
Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (SNP)
I pay tribute to right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House for their eloquence and the detail of their arguments. That will save me some time in my speech, and allows me to give the perspective of one of my constituents. I received a number of constituent inquiries on this subject, but I highlight just one.
In 2008, one of my constituents was a pilot employed by Ryanair. His conditions changed and he was forced to become self-employed. He attempted to register as self-employed, and was asked a series of questions by HMRC, including, “Do I supply my own equipment?” Obviously he did not; Ryanair supplied the plane. “Can I work for who I want?” Absolutely not; he was on the Ryanair rota. “Can I nominate a substitute?” He could not, because he had registered with Ryanair and was allowed to work only so many hours. He could not honestly answer yes to these questions, and so could not become self-employed, although a number of his colleagues did. He, though, was an honest man, and he decided not to.
My constituent looked for alternatives, and found a company on the Isle of Man—a group of qualified and recognised accountants who, for payment, presented him with a legal solution, known as an employee benefit trust. He did not really understand the implications of that solution, but he did his due diligence, and found that it was indeed legal and acceptable to HMRC. He proceeded with that system for four or five years, and filled in his tax returns legally every year on time, declaring his usage of that scheme. He was made aware of the loan charge in 2019. He came forward to HMRC straightaway and offered settlement. He assumed HMRC would treat him as an employed person and charge him for the tax he was due to pay, so he waited for the settlement figures and, in the meantime, paid £30,000 in accelerated payment notices—in fact, an advance payment of tax.
That year, he received a bill of £213,000, almost half of which was made up of interest and penalties. There was no allowance for the vast expenses he incurred. Ryanair made him pay for taxis, hotels and even water, and he had no pension relief. HMRC did not deduct the APNs he had previously paid, and he had provided all this information. He is still in dispute with HMRC.
None of that is fair. This has been a life-changing experience for him and his family. He has been treated like a criminal. He has not evaded tax law, he believes he has acted legally at all times, and he refuses to allow HMRC to ruin his life due to its incompetence. He believes this is nothing more than bullying of individuals by an all-powerful and out-of-control Government body that should rather be pursuing the people behind such schemes.
I will keep my speech short, as I appreciate we are short of time. In the interest of natural justice and fairness, I support the motion:
“That this House believes that the Loan Charge is an unjust and retrospective tax; notes that the law on the Loan Charge was not settled until 2017; and calls on HMRC to cease action on loans paid before 2017.”
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
In 2018, when a group of constituents first came to my surgery to complain about their treatment by HMRC, I was not particularly sympathetic—they were talking about loan schemes, of course. After all, why should a group of people use schemes to pay less tax than the rest of us? If they do not pay their fair share, others have to make it up, or so I thought. I was actually too harsh, not because people should not pay their fair share of tax, but because I did not understand the circumstances until they explained their predicament.
First, the people I met were clearly not out to defraud the system. They did not look or sound like petty criminals. They were normal, decent and honest. Some explained that they did not even have a choice, as we have heard: either they used a loan scheme or they would not be employed by the company or, in some cases, the state.
Secondly, as self-employed individuals, they were often contracted to different entities. Nobody but themselves, from what they earned, put aside anything for pensions, sick leave, paid holidays or, indeed, guaranteed employment. They were much less secure than someone with a permanent job.
In the interest of being quick, I have four requests of the Minister. First, I would like to see the retrospective nature of the charge removed up until July 2017, when the Finance (No. 2) Act 2017 was introduced. That makes sense to everyone.
Secondly, if that is not possible, the Government should revisit the settlement terms, which are hugely punitive. We have just heard the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Allan Dorans) say how punitive they are, and I would like to see a radical reduction in extortionate interest rate charges and inheritance tax demands.
Thirdly, we would all find it distasteful for the Government to send out settlement terms using words that imply people have deliberately broken the law—they did not. HMRC allowed the use of loan schemes every year. It sent the tax returns back, and people thought they were doing right.
Finally, I see no reason why loan charge repayments should not be delayed by a year, rather like IR35, in response to the health crisis we are all facing. So many people are worried enough at the moment. Give them a break—give them another 12 months.
Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab)
Let me say from the outset that I am no fan of tax avoidance. The law on disguised remuneration schemes should have been—and now has been, rightly—tightened, but the aggressive retrospective action taken by the Government in pursuing the loan charge policy and the profound effects that this has had on many people’s lives are quite simply unjust and unfair.
A significant number of people affected by the loan charge policy, including some of my constituents, are freelancers, contractors, locums and agency workers. When IR35 was introduced by the Government of the day in 1999, some of those who were employed by limited company or personal service companies sought and took professional tax advice and were advised to use umbrella company loan schemes instead, as those schemes were “tax law and HMRC compliant”. Acting in good faith and following the advice to the letter, many entered into these loan schemes. In some cases, particularly in the public sector, people were not even aware that they were being paid through loans.
When the loan charge was introduced in 2017, seeking to recover a 20-year retrospective tax charge for all remuneration paid in the form of a loan, those affected were rightly angered and aggrieved, particularly as HMRC lumped all the loans together into one and insisted on the tax being paid in a single year. The shock and stress of such a draconian and unjust measure caused intense pressure on many of those affected and their families. There have been seven known suicides by people who are facing financial ruin as a result of the demands of backdated tax from HMRC, even though it is questionable whether the tax was even owed. Relationships have broken down, and it has affected people’s mental health.
It is worth noting that HMRC has pursued individuals acting in good faith, rather than those who enabled the disguised remuneration loan schemes. Thankful for small mercies, the fact that HMRC is now only pursuing schemes going back 10 years, instead of 20, is to be welcomed, but many individuals are still caught by the current situation. It seems that, unlike in other areas of law, statutory time limits are of no consequence.
When the Prime Minister was running to be leader of his party, he promised a review of the loan charge situation. That review was led by Sir Amyas Morse, and the report was published in December 2019. While I welcome the recommendations of the Morse report, many of which the Government have accepted, unfortunately it does not go far enough. The report also has one fatal flaw: it concludes that the law was clear from 2010. There were a number of ambiguities at the time, such as the situation relating to those who are self-employed. If the law was so clear at the time, why did HMRC not enforce the law then, but instead choose to introduce the loan charge in 2017?
As a member of the loan charge all-party parliamentary group, I call on the Government to do a number of things. I ask them to amend the date from which the loan charge applies from 2010 to when the Finance Bill received Royal Assent in 2017; to ensure that closed tax years remain closed; to ensure that those with incomes of under £30,000 have any outstanding balances written off after 10 years; and to ensure that legislation covers business owners and directors, as well as individual contractors.
The Government and HMRC’s reputation has been damaged by the way that they have mishandled the loan charge situation. One principle that must underpin our legal and tax system is that things should be just and fair. Unfortunately, the loan charge and its aggressive application has been neither just nor fair.
Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman talks about the system being just and fair. As British people, we uphold the rule of law. That is part of the very nature and fabric of Britain. Retrospective legislation, in itself, is against the rule of law.
Bambos Charalambous
The hon. Member makes an excellent and pertinent point. We are discussing tax going back 20 years, and retrospective legislation should not be applied in this situation, because that is clearly unfair and unjust.
We must consider that, beyond the financial aspects of tax recovery, we are dealing with real people who need to be treated with fairness and respect. We have a moral duty to ensure that no more homes are lost, no more bankruptcies are filed, no more lives are lost and no more families are broken because of the loan charge policy.
David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) (Con)
Like many of those who have spoken in this debate, I have met many constituents, during the election and since, who have been directly affected by this issue. I have had the chance to go through with them many of the contracts they have signed and some of the advice they received from many of the professionals, who, we would all agree, based on what has been said today, are the villains of the piece from the perspective of this House. I have heard many examples of where professionals were paid and people should have been able to rely on their providing good, clear and legal advice, but they have left those people in a difficult financial position today.
I sympathise with the position that Sir Amyas Morse found himself in, and I believe that what he has put forward in his report, although a number of points and concerns remain, represents a reasonable attempt at a compromise to bring about a resolution of this situation. It is my understanding that many of these legal cases revolve around the question of how we define a loan. The position of the Inland Revenue, as it was, and now of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is that money that someone receives for doing their work and that they spend as their income is their income and should be taxed as such. The Inland Revenue and HMRC have always permitted both employees and directors to receive loans from the organisations for which they are working. Indeed, many of our constituents will have access to things such as season ticket loans, provided on a regular basis, which are free of tax because they are loans.
From reading the contracts that many of my constituents have signed and having heard in detail the advice that they received, it seems clear that at the heart of this is a fundamental problem: the schemes themselves were lawful because it was lawful to receive a loan, but the money the constituent received was tax-free only if it was genuinely a loan. But as five, 10, 15 or 20 years have gone by and there has been a complete absence of evidence that these things were genuinely loans, because the person has received that money as remuneration and spent it as their income, HMRC has naturally begun to take a lot more detailed interest in that, and this situation has left many of our constituents in a real bind.
I am mindful that, when we read Morse’s proposals, we see that he proposes a process of resolution containing a number of different avenues that the individual taxpayer affected can explore. I hope the Minister will consider that somewhere at the heart of this is making sure that individuals who acted in good faith, notwithstanding the fact that they were badly and incorrectly advised by professionals, should be enabled to have the benefit of the fact that they acted in good faith when they signed their tax return, even if the information on it, prima facie, was not correct. They were not intending to evade tax and thought they were doing something that was within the law.
In summary, I am also conscious that although we have heard a vocal campaign on this during the election campaign, 99% of taxpayers in this country never go near a scheme such as this. Quite a few of those taxpayers have said to me that they find it hard to credit that anybody thought that by describing the pay they received for their work on their tax return as a “loan” that meant they did not and never had to pay any income tax on it.
Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab)
Jeff in my constituency, who is hard-working, played by the rules. According to the rules, as far as Jeff was concerned, and as advised by accountants and even by HRMC, everything was in order. He was doing a good job and paying his way. As Members from across this House have said, this is about fairness and justice.
David Simmonds
Everybody in the Chamber is going to agree with that point, but fairness and justice clearly extend to this Chamber making decisions that are appropriate for everybody. I am very mindful of what my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) said about ensuring that everybody pays their taxes and everybody is treated fairly. I simply say this: there has understandably been a huge outpouring of sympathy towards people who did not expect to find themselves facing a very substantial tax bill because they thought they had done the right thing. I urge Ministers to be as helpful and as considerate as possible in approaching the settlement of that, but it is also clear to me, as someone who worked as a professional in the financial advice business—not as a tax adviser—when these schemes were being rolled out, that huge numbers of people avoided them, because they recognised that they were being asked to put something on their tax return that they knew was not correct. We therefore have to strike the right balance in how we deal with the issue today.
Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to speak in this important debate. I will be brief and focus my remarks on two or three key areas that have been partially mentioned by some colleagues earlier. I thank the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) for securing this debate and commend the work of the all-party parliamentary group and the cross-party nature of the debate today, which is helpful.
First and foremost, I put on record my fundamental support for a fair tax system. We obviously need to raise taxes to pay for vital public services, but that system clearly has to be fair. I think that the points made by a number of colleagues across the House on the matter are absolutely right, and I am grateful for the emerging consensus on the issue.
Secondly, I highlight the importance of the issue of the loan charge. The fact that this debate is taking place today in a period of sustained national crisis—indeed, it is a crisis for the whole world—is interesting, and it does underline the importance of this issue. I was approached about it a number of times during the general election, like many Members here today, and I have had constituents contact me about it. There is deep unease in the community, certainly in the constituency I represent, which is made up of Reading itself and the neighbouring town of Woodley, about the problem, which affects many people. I noted the figure of 50,000 people across the country. It certainly seems to be higher than that, given the proportion of people in my community who seem to be affected.
I draw Members’ attention to the effects on a typical town of its type, as Reading is, and specific industries where I believe there may be a particular likelihood of the problem arising. In the area I represent, a very large number of people are self-employed and have microbusinesses or work as consultants in one form or another. That is spread across a huge range of sectors, from traditional small businesses through to people with trades or IT skills and public servants. It is a vast range of people.
I want to add to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Dr Huq) about locums in public services affected by the issue. I know of cases where a number of people in public services have to set up as a company and work on that basis, perhaps as a supply teacher or in some other interim role in public services. I should declare an interest, as I have certainly operated in that way in the past as an interim public servant. In the more distant past, I was a full-time civil servant. Locums are a well-known type of employment and a subset of those people—not all of them—are affected by the loan charge.
As well as my area, many other nearby parts of the country have similarly high levels of employment in IT. There is a particular prevalence of self-employment among IT professionals. If we think of the great IT businesses in this country—companies such as Microsoft, Oracle or Vodafone—many of them are headquartered in the Thames valley or west London. Many of those large businesses rely heavily on subcontractors who have often no choice but to set up a limited company that then serves the much larger organisation.
In my area, many people who are affected by the loan charge are in the IT industry. There are whole WhatsApp groups of people in parts of the IT industry that are buzzing with concern about the matter. As has been said, the issue ranges back over many years and there is deep uncertainty and pressure on these workers and their small businesses and, indeed, their families, because of this whole problem. As I said earlier, we are debating this issue at a time of national crisis. Imagine how that concern overlays itself on top of the existing pressures that we talked about earlier today and yesterday. Quite rightly, we in this House have discussed and raised with the Government the importance of supporting small businesses at this time of national crisis.
Imagine how it would feel to be a small business person or an IT subcontractor who was the breadwinner in their family. Their source of income could dry up because of this crisis, which is not of their making and that they have not anticipated. At the same time, they face the long-standing problem of the loan charge looming over them, with the very grave measures that other colleagues have mentioned today. Some of the examples that have been mentioned are truly dreadful. Imagine that pressure. That is what we need to do today—to think about what it feels like for somebody who is a small business person or self-employed. I know the Minister is dutiful and well-read and, as was said earlier, he has written a biography of Adam Smith. I hope that he will look again at the evidence clearly and thoroughly and in the context of the current situation affecting small businesses.
Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)
I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing the debate when I know they had a backlog of requests on many important issues. I also thank my fellow sponsors of this debate, my fellow chairs of the loan charge APPG, particularly the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey), and the right hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning), who cannot attend today because he is dealing with a family medical emergency. We wish him well.
I also thank the officers of the loan charge APPG and the action group. I can confirm that the three co-chairs of the APPG, from three different parties, all endorse the APPG report that was released tonight and is on our website. It is a pleasure to follow so many Members who have described in vivid terms the experiences of their constituents, so I will not dwell on those too much. I have similar experiences.
This is a time of incredible worry for most people in this country for their loved ones, their neighbours and themselves, and many of our constituents—perhaps most of them—are facing catastrophic and even absolute loss of income. While this debate is wholly unrelated to the covid-19 virus, for the victims of the loan charge scandal, who are already worried about their financial futures, the coronavirus outbreak only heaps more agony on top.
I agree with the points that others have made about tax avoidance, but this is not about tax avoidance, which we abhor and would like to see closed down. This debate is about natural justice, as has been said by so many. When the APPG started, the Treasury and former members of the Government said there was no problem with the loan charge and it was a perfect piece of Government policy. They said there was no need for a review of the policy. The right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton tabled an amendment calling for a review, we had a debate in the Chamber almost a year ago and a Treasury report that was a whitewash, frankly. Meanwhile, more and more Members were being contacted by worried taxpayers describing the bullying of HMRC and their fears for themselves, their families and their work. We kept standing up, we kept asking questions and we kept lobbying Ministers.
The Prime Minister, in his leadership bid, promised to hold a full review of the loan charge. We have had the review, led by the highly respected Sir Amyas Morse, whose report was released on 20 December, and on the same day, HMRC released its response. For taxpayers, the Morse review means that they are looking to the future, but I have heard several extremely troubling cases from my constituents who face the loan charge. This is about HMRC behaviour. In one case, my constituents provided all the information asked for and heard nothing back for two years. They received a note from HMRC saying they were facing the loan charge with interest added, including for the two years when they had had complete radio silence from HMRC. How is that justified or proportionate? Based on evidence to us, and I assume to Sir Amyas, along with casework and conversations with colleagues, including some casework wholly unrelated to the loan charge, it feels as though HMRC is just not capable of providing a competent service.
Others today have rightly mentioned the anxiety and uncertainty of taxpayers as they are chased for almost immediate payment of sums that they just do not have, and without any justification for the amount demanded. Usually, any previous information that they may have sent to HMRC is completely ignored.
I just want to touch briefly on poorly paid and vulnerable people. The Morse review recommended that, after 10 years, the loan charge should no longer apply to people who earn less than £30,000 a year, but the Government rejected that recommendation. Let us remember that many of these people are working in the public services—in the NHS and local authorities—and many of them do not have accountants. Many were effectively in a position where they were told that, if they wanted this work, they had to sign up to this umbrella scheme. The head clients will now no longer contract with personal services companies, so these umbrella schemes are all that is available to them.
We have social workers, junior doctors, nurses, cleaners and so on facing many charges year after year. To address this injustice, Sir Amyas made a reasonable request. It was that HMRC should not chase loan charge payments between 2010 and 2016 if the individual made a reasonable disclosure, but the words “reasonable disclosure” were changed by the Treasury to “full disclosure”—a term which, according to tax experts, has little or no relevance in tax law.
Where do we go from here? For months and months, we have heard the Government say that this is not a retrospective matter, yet they made an agreement with Sir Amyas Morse and shifted the date that the loan charge applied from 1999 to 2010. If they can change their mind once, surely they can do it again. If the Government can defer the roll-out of IR35 to the private sector, as they did earlier this week following extensive concerns, they can change their mind on the loan charge, I hope. The new suggested cut-off date of 29 December 2010 is based on the law being clear, yet we know now that this was not the case. If the law was clear then why did we need the loan charge and another change in legislation in 2016?
I would like very briefly to list some of the concerns that are in our report but that have not yet been raised in this debate—[Interruption.] Madam Deputy Speaker is coughing at me, so I urge anyone reading Hansard or watching this debate to please look at the report that we released last night. It is on the loan charge action group and the loan charge all-party group website.
In finishing, let me return to a core question. Is applying the loan charge from 2010 justified and proportionate? The answer to that from the all-party group is, no, it is not. I would go further and ask: is HMRC abiding by Adam Smith’s principles of fair taxation, which were mentioned at the beginning of this debate. Furthermore, are HMRC and the Treasury abiding by the Nolan principles of public service, particularly selflessness, objectivity, accountability, openness, honesty and leadership? I urge the Government to listen to the strong opposition to this retrospective, unjust and unfair tax and, quite simply, to do the right thing.
Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD)
Madam Deputy Speaker, I will obey your instruction to be brief by merely commending the contributions to this debate from the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey).
I merely add that, as a member of the accounting profession, I have been somewhat abashed during this debate. We are not coming out of this well. I was contacted by a constituent of mine, Dr Nausheed Baig, who is an NHS dentist. He is there to practise the skills of dentistry. He takes full responsibility for his tax affairs, and he does that by consulting a professional tax adviser. I believe that HMRC should always take into consideration the fact that taxpayers, in taking responsibility for their affairs, are not expected to be tax experts themselves, and it is perfectly reasonable and rational to consult and take advice from qualified accountants such as myself—I have never charged for tax advice, so I do not have a declaration to make.
I wish to raise the case of another constituent of mine, Mr Michael Bilton, who is now retired, and his wife is on the verge of retirement as well. Between them, they take care of their disabled daughter. Mr Bilton was in a loan scheme prior to 2010 and received notification only a few years ago of the large sums of tax that he was now required to pay. He has already paid a considerable sum. The outstanding liability is of considerable concern to him, as he and his wife prepare for retirement and to take proper care of their disabled daughter. I urge the Minister to think about those people who have already paid large sums. Sir Amyas Morse has confirmed that anything prior to 2010 should not be liable to a charge. I urge the Minister to consider rebates for those people who have paid vast sums already into a scheme that has now been judged not to give rise to a charge. I realise that there are considerably more pressing issues, but if that could be attended to in due course, I would be extremely grateful.
Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab)
I, too, congratulate the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) on securing this important debate at a time of national crisis. This is a crisis for 50,000 people across the country, and it will exacerbate the already difficult mental health and economic situation they face. I welcome the agreement we have heard across the House during the debate.
Let me make it clear at the outset that the debate is not about protecting and keeping in place loopholes and avenues for tax avoidance. I join other Members in saying that tax avoidance is a scourge, and any initiative or legislation aimed at tackling it has my full support. However, I do not support cruelly punishing more than 50,000 people and their families—hard-working entrepreneurs who acted in good faith—and often driving them to suicide. I have met many constituents at surgeries who have been in tears as a result of the effect of this issue on their family.
One constituent was hit with a bill for £158,000 plus interest five years after retiring. There is no way that he can repay that charge. He was advised by his accountant in 2007 that entering into employment via a loan remuneration scheme was entirely legal. That is a theme among the constituents who have come to see me. They say they found out that these schemes were QC-approved, they felt they were entirely legal and they did their due diligence, but the law has failed them. Although the Government’s decision to accept most of Sir Amyas’s recommendations is a very welcome step, the loan charge is still grossly unfair and is destroying lives in my constituency and across the country.
In the interests of time, I will cut to the six changes that I urge the Minister to consider. First, he should call off the dogs during the coronavirus situation and remove the threat of these huge charges from our constituents. This is a mental health crisis for many people. Secondly, the date that the loan charge looks back to should be amended from December 2010 to the date of Royal Assent of the Finance Act in July 2017, as the law was not clear.
Thirdly, the Government should accept the Morse review recommendation that unprotected or closed tax years should remain closed. Fourthly, they should accept the Morse review recommendation that people with incomes of under £30,000 should have any outstanding tax balances written off after 10 years of making a genuine attempt to pay on the terms that have been announced. Fifthly, the legislation must treat business owners and directors equally with individual contractors. Finally, anyone still using these schemes—I was astonished to find out that that is still going on—should be told immediately of the liabilities that they face.
We have to tackle tax avoidance, but using retrospective charges, which are ruining the lives of hard-working contractors and entrepreneurs and putting them in hundreds of thousands of pounds of debt overnight, is not right or just. The companies that promoted these schemes should be penalised, and the Government should accept the blame.
Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP)
Let me first congratulate the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) on his brilliant introduction to this issue and on standing up for the victims of this scandal—and it is a scandal. I am a proud member of the all-party parliamentary loan charge group.
Two constituents, Fraser Kennedy and Jason Millington, have been in regular contact about this issue. Indeed, one Monday morning, as I was travelling down to Westminster, I got the fright of my life when I saw the number of Twitter notifications I had. It surprised me because it had been a quiet weekend, so I knew I had not said or done anything particularly controversial—at least not that particular weekend. It was a tweet from Jason Millington, who said that what had kept him going was that he had the support of me and so many other MPs in fighting this injustice.
Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on avoiding controversy and recommend that for all Scottish National party MPs.
I have had two constituents get in touch and I have tried to make representations on their behalf, because they found themselves in a situation that they absolutely did not intend to be in because of the information that they were given. Does this not show the importance of constituents getting in touch with us? I understand from the people running the all-party parliamentary loan charge group that there may be more such constituents out there, and it is very important that they contact their MPs so that we can give them tailored advice and support.
Chris Stephens
My hon. Friend is right; that is very sound advice. Everyone who has spoken so far today has been a credit not just to the House, but to their constituents, because there are far too many people—such as my constituents, his constituents and others—who are in despair because of this issue.
Richard Fuller
On the importance of Members of Parliament speaking up, is the hon. Member concerned, as I am, that effectively, HMRC is smearing constituents as tax dodgers and adding to their mental anguish, rather than trying to assist them through this process?
Chris Stephens
I am not only very concerned, but angry about some of these actions and what I have heard today about what HMRC is up to. I will speak more about that.
When constituents such as Fraser Kennedy and Jason Millington come to us to discuss this issue, three immediate things leap out at us. This has come up in the debate, including in a fantastic example from my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Allan Dorans). In this Parliament, we really need to deal with the relationship between an employer and a worker and their status in the workplace, because it really is time to end the bogus self-employment that we have heard about in this debate and in other examples. This needs to be addressed because what this issue has proven is that the wrong people are being targeted.
The hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) said that when people first come across this issue, it looks like some sort of tax avoidance scheme, and I think it is perfectly natural for someone to think that when it is first explained to them. In the back of my head, when I first heard about it, I thought, “Well, maybe I will approach HMRC as an MP and try to get the same sweetheart deal that Google got only a couple of years ago,” when it paid the equivalent of 4% corporation tax. It seems that there is a disproportionate way that the people who have been caught up in the loan charge are being dealt with compared with other people who can get a sweetheart deal. That is how I thought I could try to deal with it, because if the answer is, “Yes, it is tax avoidance”, then the people HMRC should really be going after are those who contrived and promoted such schemes, because they are the ones who are directly responsible. They should be pursued and punished, and there should not be the blunt instrument that is being used for those caught up in the loan charge.
The third conclusion is, as the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller) said, that there have been disproportionate actions from HMRC towards the individuals who have been caught up in this and how they feel. My constituent, Fraser Kennedy, sums it up well. His employer, Winchester, assured him and HMRC that it had paid all the tax and moneys, but he is still getting chased by HMRC. He feels bullied and harassed, and is suffering from stress and anxiety because of how it has handled the matter. He believed that it was settled a year ago, but he is still getting correspondence.
Paul Holmes
The hon. Member’s speech perfectly sums up the problem for many of my constituents in Eastleigh. So many times, they get a letter and desperately try to get through to HMRC, but there is no constructive dialogue with HMRC. Does he agree that we need a better bespoke team to work with the people affected by these measures?
Chris Stephens
I entirely agree. The hon. Member’s constituents in Eastleigh and my constituents in Glasgow South West will have the same feelings about this matter and how they are being treated.
Jason Millington emailed me his thoughts last night, because he knew that the debate was today. He said that he when he was advised of the changes in 2016, he stopped immediately and put his affairs in order, totally unaware that HMRC was looking for back taxes. The requests that are being made are entirely unreasonable. The stress of not knowing how he can ever repay what HMRC is looking for is having a serious impact personally, and indeed professionally. I do not remember the tax avoiders such as Google complaining publicly that they were feeling bullied and harassed, or that they were under stress or feeling anxiety. It seems appropriate to point out, as many hon. Members have, that if the law on tax was changed in 2017, that is when the law should apply from. Going back to 2010 is entirely unreasonable. I support the motion.
Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)
It is a long time since I read Adam Smith, but as I recall, the fourth maxim goes along the lines of, “Take from the taxpayer only that which is needed for the public realm.” Of course, the converse of that is that the more people do not pay their taxes, the more the rest have to pay to balance up, so Adam Smith’s statement is not absolutely unambiguous.
As almost everyone has said today, tax avoidance should not be allowed. It should not be encouraged. It should be discouraged in any way possible, because the rest of us who do pay our taxes have to support those who do not, so I do not have a problem with the concept of clamping down on tax avoidance. Retrospection has been used since the second world war, but it has always been commensurate with the needs of the nation. I do not want to get into a big argument about retrospection, but the issue is there. An excellent document from the House of Commons Library sets it out perfectly reasonably, and people have to take their own view.
I completely accept that many people took advice from a variety of organisations and that advice was wrong. I do not dispute that. These enablers ripped people off. Their scams were like other scams we have had, whether it is the recent leasehold scam, the payment protection insurance scam, or the endowment mortgage scam. These scams have existed for a long time, as the south sea bubble scam shows. They go back an awfully long time—
Peter Dowd
Precisely—before the right hon. Gentleman was a Member, although not much before, I imagine.
Bob Stewart
It might be dangerous to intervene here, but I am quite sure that a lot of these financial analysts and chartered accounts honestly thought they were doing the right thing and everything was legal. They acted in good faith. I do not suppose that all of them were slightly dodgy.
Peter Dowd
Well, that is a view. The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) talked about how something that looks too good to be true is too good to be true. People have to take that on board when they become in involved in such schemes, as lots of people have, right across the spectrum, from those who are pretty wealthy all the way down to people who earn quite small sums.
It is the responsibility of this House to ensure that people are treated fairly. I do not want to get into the argument about whether HMRC has treated people fairly or unfairly. I accept in good faith what Members have said today about how their constituents have been treated. That has to be set in the context of the issue of HMRC’s resources. A third of its staff have gone since cuts in 2005 and later in 2010. Any increases in the cash amounts available to HMRC for its running have, in effect, been blocked. That is a factor that we must take into account as well.
The primary issue here is whether the enablers—the people everybody has talked about today—are getting away scot-free. I suspect that the Minister will tell us the extent of the Government’s and HMRC’s action to tackle these enablers, but I suspect that it will not be enough and the Government will have to sharpen up their footwork.
Whether HMRC has been aggressive is, again, a moot point. However, we know some of the enablers have also been incredibly aggressive. The Rangers FC issue trundled on for the best part of 13 years, with enablers—the accountants and lawyers—taking it right to the line and beyond, so let us not pretend there was not aggression from those who were attempting to push and push the boundaries, hence the reason for commensurate potential retrospective legislation.
I do not want to take much time, and everything has already been said today. It is important not just that the letter of the report and all its recommendations are put in place, but that the spirit of the report in relation to closed cases and so on is taken into account, and specifically the recommendation for a £30,000, 10-year limit, which the Government rejected.
The Government should have a word—I put it as gently as that—with HMRC about people’s perception of how it has behaved. It is important for Ministers to get that view across to HMRC. As the hon. Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (David Simmonds) said, it is about balance. We need balance in dealing with this matter, and I hope the Government can get that balance right.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman)
I congratulate my right hon. Friends the Members for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) and the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Ruth Cadbury) for securing this debate today, and I thank colleagues on both sides of the House for their contributions. It is a measure of the effect they perceive on their constituents that, in these circumstances, they are here in such numbers.
The outbreak of covid-19 has created extraordinary circumstances, and it is important to say up front that the Government are keeping the situation under close review, as elsewhere, and will take a proportionate and reasonable approach to anyone covered by the loan charge who is unable to file their return by 30 September. That date has been moved back to give people enough time to respond to the Morse report and its recommendations, but the Government will insist that HMRC takes a proportionate and reasonable approach to anyone covered by the loan charge who is unable to file their return by 30 September.
Anyone who believes they may be affected by this should please contact HMRC as soon as possible. Equally, we must recognise that HMRC’s workforce may well be affected by the outbreak. Where appropriate, HMRC has made it clear that it will take steps to support anyone who has been disadvantaged by delays at its end as a result of covid-19. As the House will know, HMRC has already established a helpline to support any businesses and individuals affected. The hon. Member for Bootle (Peter Dowd) raised that issue, and I can confirm the helpline has now been in place for some time and has an expert and supportive staff behind it.
As this debate has made clear, the loan charge, and with it the wider issue of using disguised remuneration schemes to avoid tax, has been the subject of public concern and considerable controversy. Let us be clear that tax is never popular, and my colleagues and I recognise the strength of feeling and sympathise with those who may be subject to the charge. Today’s motion reflects some of the arguments and concerns expressed by colleagues that the loan charge is retrospective and unjust and that the law was not settled, it is claimed, until 2017. If I may, I will deal with each of those charges in turn.
First, however, we need to be clear what we are talking about. Disguised remuneration is a term of art—it is a fancy term—but the House should be under no illusion as to what it amounts to. Such schemes are a form of contrived tax avoidance in which people are paid in the form of a loan with no interest and no intention or requirement to pay the loan back.
Jesse Norman
I thank my right hon. Friend for the question. All he needs to do is attend to the detail of the Morse report, in which Sir Amyas Morse goes through the efforts made at that time, before and after 2010, in some detail. That is the basis for the judgment that he reaches about the appropriate relief.
Chris Stephens
The Morse review also suggests that the main people responsible were the creators of such schemes, who do not seem to be getting chased up to the same extent as those who appear to be the victims of the schemes.
Jesse Norman
I take it that the hon Gentleman rightly refers to the enablers and promoters of such schemes. As he knows, I take that extremely seriously, and I have insisted on that point ever since I became Financial Secretary. I will say more about that shortly.
I return to the point that such schemes were contrived tax avoidance schemes that were typically run through an offshore vehicle. A person would receive a monthly amount of pay, often deliberately set at or around the level of the personal allowance to maximise the tax avoided, and above the national insurance lower earnings limit, so as to qualify the person concerned for the national insurance contributions required to receive a state pension. Of course, that did not reflect the person in question’s true earnings because, alongside that payment, they would receive a further top-up payment described as a loan. In many cases, the top-up payment far exceeded—often by a large multiple—the salary element declared for tax purposes.
Those facts are not genuinely in doubt, and all Members who have taken part in the debate have rightly condemned tax avoidance, but I put them on the record again because they highlight how contrived that form of tax avoidance typically was. They also go to the root of the problem.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden raised the issue of thesauruses and dictionary definitions. Let me remind him of the difference between a dictionary definition and a thesaurus. A thesaurus gives an alternate word of supposedly the same meaning. A dictionary definition tries to explain exactly what it is that is being talked about.
The dictionary definition of a real loan is,
“an amount of money that is borrowed…and has to be paid back”.
That accords with our natural experience, as hon. Members will discover if they try to take out a business loan from a bank and not pay it back. If they try to take out a mortgage and not pay it back, they will find the same to be true.
Those loans, however, were not designed to be paid back. They were rather different from loans that might be made to employees that then get written off, on which tax is typically chargeable. They were not designed to be paid back. They were employment income in disguise, so they were subject to tax.
Sir Edward Davey
Will the Minister set out which piece of legislation, before the loan charge legislation, saw loans as income?
Jesse Norman
I am not in a position to take the right hon. Gentleman through the legal arguments, and I do not need to, because, as I have said, they have been described in detail by Sir Amyas Morse in his review which, of course, is based, as my remarks would not be, on a detailed interrogation with tax experts on all the specific issues behind it. I do not think we have any sensible reason—no one has in fact offered one—for disagreeing at length or in any detail with his conclusion.
Christian Matheson
The Minister knows that I have all the time in the world for him, but nobody in this House disputes the fact that it was tax avoidance and that loopholes needed to be closed. He is spending his time explaining why they were avoidance schemes, but hon. Members understand that. It is the question of retrospection and unfairness that is exercising us in this debate.
Jesse Norman
I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but if I may say so, I do not think that has been true. I think the conclusion colleagues have been pushing in this debate is that they disapprove thoroughly of tax avoidance, and their view is that this is not tax avoidance in many cases. If they accept that this is tax avoidance and that the issue is merely as to the remedy, that is of course a slightly different position, and one that I am happy to respond to.
I just want to make it clear that this is a form of tax avoidance. It goes to the wider issue as to whether people should have known what it was. The point is that it is tax avoidance, and it costs the Exchequer hundreds of millions of pounds a year. That has two effects: it deprives public services of the money they need to operate; and it forces other taxpayers to pay more to make up the shortfall.
The purpose of the loan charge was to combat this form of abusive tax avoidance. The loan charge was introduced as a new measure in 2017. Following a public campaign last year, we asked Sir Amyas Morse, as has been noted, to conduct a review of whether it was an appropriate policy response to the use of the disguised remuneration scheme. He had full control of the review’s management and recommendations. He took evidence from a very wide range of individuals affected, and he spoke to interest groups, MPs, tax specialists and many other stakeholders.
Again, the facts are not in doubt. Sir Amyas Morse, as has been recognised by colleagues today, is an individual of huge experience and great independence of mind, and he is widely respected across the House. He was independent in his review, and he was given wide scope in expert support. He produced a thorough and exacting piece of work—a 76-page, 30,000-word report—that drew on over 700 individual testimonies and impact statements, and which painstakingly worked through the issues before recommending notable changes to the policy, including substantial carve-outs as to who was affected. Sir Amyas was clinical and at times unsparing in his criticisms, including of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and, be it said, of the Loan Charge Action Group. All but one of these recommendations were accepted by the Government.
Among those recommendations were two to which I want to draw the House’s particular attention. The first is Sir Amyas’s insistence, as we have heard across the House today, on the need for the Government to go further in going after and bringing to justice people who enable or promote tax avoidance schemes. I am therefore delighted that, as part of the Budget documentation we have produced today, we have published a policy document on “Tackling promoters of mass-marketed tax avoidance schemes”, and I draw the attention of all colleagues to it. It is a sober and thorough piece of work that looks at lots of different approaches as part of an integrated strategy.
The other thing that Sir Amyas pointed to—again, I think rightly, but also picking up on a widely anticipated and understood gap—is the importance of raising standards in the tax advice market. Again, I am pleased to say that, as part of the Budget documentation, we have published a call for evidence on this very topic, “Raising standards in the tax advice market”. I encourage all colleagues and their constituents to contribute to that approach.
Ruth Cadbury
I thank the right hon. Member for the points he is making about advice and information. However, I again come back to the fact that the low-paid and the averagely-paid—generally public sector workers—are still being sold these schemes. They cannot be paid through a personal services company, but they need to work freelance and locum, and this is still happening to them. If the Government see these schemes as contrived, why are they not doing more to stop the mass marketing of them, such as by making the promoters personally liable for defeated schemes and similar?
Jesse Norman
I have in my hand a detailed document designed to address this very issue. It goes through a whole range of different approaches and integrates them into a strategy. I would be delighted to have any input that she would like to make about other ways in which that can be improved and developed. We work on the basis of the law as it presently stands, and which we have inherited. It is itself the result of previous Parliaments, including of course the parliamentary consideration of the loan charge. We have to work with the hand we have got, and improve it as fast and as comprehensively as we can.
I will now address the motion directly and then, in the limited time I have, turn to the comments that have been made. Is the loan charge retrospective? Again, I think it is clear that it is not. It was introduced as a new measure in 2017. It taxes a loan outstanding at a future date. It does not change any law previously on the statute book.
It has been asked why the loan charge was introduced. In the words of Sir Amyas Morse, it
“offers an expedited means of collecting tax that is due”.
Is the loan charge unjust? Again, I would suggest not. If one asks the average man or woman in this country, I think they would say, “Everyone should pay their fair share of taxes. People are responsible for their own tax affairs. Real loans get repaid; if someone offered you a loan for which no repayment, no tax and no interest was due, it would probably be too good to be true.” And so it is.
The numbers seem to bear that out. More than 99.8% of the tax-paying population have never used a scheme. Even among the freelance population, the take-up has been only 2.5%. It is notable that Sir Amyas Morse was clear that he supported the essential purpose of the loan charge and that it should remain in force.
We have heard a lot about how the law was not settled in 2017. Again, as I said, I can do no better than refer colleagues to section A of the Morse review, which carefully reconstructs the history of the past 20 years of disguised remuneration.
Let me quickly turn to the many excellent contributions that have been made. I will start with the excellent contribution made as a point of order by my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne), who pointed out the excellence of my book on Adam Smith—I thank him for that, although I defer to the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Neale Hanvey), as Kirkcaldy was, of course, Smith’s home town. My right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West will recall—he taught economics so he must know about these things—that Smith not only set out the ideals of a well-functioning tax system, which we all aspire to achieve, but was, for the last 12 years of his life, a practising commissioner of customs, attempting to wrestle with an ever-evolving customs market and seeking to extract duty and tax due, and rightly so.
I would like to touch on the statesmanlike comments of the hon. Member for Bootle, the shadow Chief Secretary, which perhaps reflected his imminent expectation of taking my seat on this side of the aisle. He recognised that what people do not pay in tax due, someone else must. He is right about that. He noticed that if it looks too good to be true, it probably is. He is right to focus, as others have, on the enablers and promoters.
Jesse Norman
I have half a minute left. The right hon. Gentleman has only just arrived, so it is a little impertinent to raise a question at this point.
It is important that we focus on the centrality of the claim. Sir Amyas Morse has looked at it, and he has attempted to find a Jupiterian way through complicated tax issues and to deal, with equity, with the different interests and parties involved. I think he has succeeded, which is why the Government, comprehensively, with one exception, have accepted his conclusions.
Mr David Davis
These occasions often show the House at its best, and that is certainly true today.
I start by paying tribute to the Loan Charge Action Group, the all-party group—particularly its chairman—and all who have contributed in the debate, which has been excellent, albeit slightly one way in terms of its emphasis. Why is that? Because this is a matter of justice, not technicalities. It is a story of unclear law not very competently clarified in 2011 and then rewritten in 2017. It is a story of HMRC allowing the real villains—the employers and advisers who forced people into this position—to carry on getting away with that, and of HMRC failing to intervene during that period to stop them.
I am afraid the Morse review is wrong. That was brilliantly exposed by the chairman of the all-party group. There is, in truth, only one answer, but before I come to it, I have 40 seconds, so I will say one other thing to those on the Treasury Bench and the Opposition Front Bench. All of us in this House believe in fair taxation. We all believe that we should pay our dues. When you are doing deals with Vodafone and Google, where they pay from 10% down to 4%, do not turn round to an ordinary locum nurse and say, “It’s too good to be true. You should have known.”
Mr Davis
No, I will not. I only have seconds.
There is only one answer in this debate. I am afraid that Amyas Morse is wrong. The answer is laid out in our motion. HMRC should cease action on all cases before July 2017, and then justice will be done.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House believes that the Loan Charge is an unjust and retrospective tax; notes that the law on the Loan Charge was not settled until 2017; and calls on HMRC to cease action on loans paid before 2017.
Horizon Settlement: Future Governance of Post Office Ltd
(4 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered Horizon settlement and future governance of Post Office Ltd.
Innocent people jailed; individuals having their good name and livelihoods taken away from them; the full use of the state and its finances to persecute individuals. Those are all characteristics of a totalitarian or police state. But that is exactly what we have seen in the 21st century in the way the Government and the Post Office have dealt with sub-postmasters and their use of the Horizon system. The Horizon system was the biggest non-military IT project in Europe. It cost over £1 billion to install and affected 18,000 post offices throughout the UK.
Before I go on, I would like to pay tribute to some individuals who I have been working long and hard with on this campaign. The first is the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen), who cannot be here today because, unfortunately, a family member is ill and he has had to self-isolate. He has been with me from the start in trying to get justice for sub-postmasters, and I will refer to some of his work later. He would like to have been here and sends his apologies; that he is not here does not mean that he is not interested in the outcome. I also thank James Arbuthnot, the former Member for North East Hampshire, who, despite being moved to God’s waiting room further along the corridor, has still consistently pressed the case for justice for sub-postmasters. I pay tribute to the work that he has done in the past and is doing now.
I want to mention two other individuals. Alan Bates is the lead claimant in the class action. Alan has been a stalwart and stuck by his principles—knowing, as he said, that “I am right and I am going to make sure we get the truth out.” The other person is someone who has very helpfully shone a spotlight on the issue, and has spent many hours sitting through long court cases: Nick Wallis is a journalist who has kept this story in the public domain. Alan and Nick both deserve credit for their continued actions now and their work in the past.
I first came to be involved in the issue when a constituent came to see me in my surgery. That constituent was Tom Brown. Tom, like many other thousands of sub-postmasters, was a hard-working and well-respected individual. He had won awards from the Post Office for fighting off an armed robber in his post office, but because of the introduction of the Horizon system, he was accused of stealing £84,000 from the Post Office. Even though he said and demonstrated that that was not the case, the Post Office took him to court, and he went through the agony of being publicly shamed in his local community—we must remember that a lot of these individuals are the stalwarts of their local communities.
Tom went to Newcastle Crown court, and on the day of the trial the Post Office withdrew the case, but the damage had already been done. His good name had been ruined, and he had lost—because he had had to go bankrupt—in excess of nearly half a million pounds in the form of his business, the bungalow that he had bought for his retirement and some investment properties. He now lives with his son in social housing in South Stanley. The man who should have had a nice retirement, and who was well respected in his community, has been completely ruined and is destitute. Despite that—he came to see me last week—he is an individual who still has integrity, because he has always insisted that he is innocent of what he was accused of, and he has not been alone. Despite that—he came to see me last week— he is an individual who still has integrity, because he has always insisted that he is innocent of what he was accused of, and he has not been alone. The estimate from the class action that has been taken is 555, and there are many others, some unfortunately who have died since the case was taken forward.
The scandal of this—what makes me so angry and why I have persistently hung on to the campaign—is that the Post Office knew all along that the Horizon system was flawed.
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. Is not the other scandal in this that the courts time and again failed the victims? In the prosecutions that were taken forward by the Post Office, the courts found in favour of the Post Office, despite it being unable to properly evidence its case. It is absolutely wrong. We must stand up for David versus Goliath in our courts.
Mr Jones
I will come back to that, which is something that I think my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) will refer to in his contribution.
The board minutes from 1999 show that the Post Office knew there were bugs in the system and software problems. It denied all the way through that, for example, the amounts that sub-postmasters inputted could be changed. That was just not true. It could be remotely done, and the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire and his constituent Mr Rudkin, who visited the headquarters where the data was being stored, proved that. In classic style, when he raised that the Post Office denied that he had ever visited the data centre in the first place, until he proved that he had. It was just one cover-up after another. The denial culture in the Post Office was described by Judge Fraser, in what I thought was a very good his judgment, as
“the 21st century equivalent of maintaining that the earth is flat”,
because the evidence was there all the way through. There is no way that anyone who took an objective look at the system, in terms of the Post Office or Fujitsu, the contractor, could argue that it was perfect.
Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con)
It has also come to light that the people who were fixing the system from behind the scenes, as the right hon. Gentleman mentioned, and who could go in and balance the tills as it were, were incentivised and paid to be speedy and quickly fix the issues, which made a lot of these cases even worse, so that balances that were already poor got even worse.
Mr Jones
It was even worse than that: for many years the Post Office denied that that could ever be done. It was only in 2011, after campaigning by me and others, that the Post Office had the forensic accountants Second Sight take a look, and it discovered exactly what the hon. Gentleman has just outlined. But what does the Post Office do? It set up a mediation service, but still denied that there was any problem, even though the evidence was there.
As for the operator, Fujitsu, it knew that there were glitches. Indeed, I have to say that it is as guilty of the cover-up as the Post Office. I cannot comment on the judgment—I think the judge has possibly referred the case to the Crown Prosecution Service to get its involvement, so I do not really want to go into the detail—but Fujitsu has a lot to answer for.
John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
My right hon. Friend is outlining a litany of maladministration at the very least. Have any individuals at management level in either at Post Office Ltd or Fujitsu ever been held accountable for this?
Mr Jones
I shall come to that, which is a very good point. The complete opposite: most have been promoted or, in one case, appointed as a Government adviser when she left the Post Office.
That denial then led the postmasters to get the group action together, with 555 taking the Post Office to court. The Post Office was still denying that there was a problem when it went into court; indeed, its consistent approach has been to deny any type of liability.
Let me turn to the role of the Post Office and that of Government. The Post Office is an arm’s length body from Government, but the sole shareholder is the Government. They have a shareholder representative on the board. Despite that, millions of pounds of public money are spent every year. In fact, it is a nationalised company, whether we like it or not.
But we are unable, as parliamentarians, to scrutinise the Post Office. For example, in spite of what it knew, it is estimated that the Post Office spent between £100 million and £120 million defending the indefensible in court. That was basically designed to whittle down the case, so that the other side ran out of money. Trying to scrutinise the Post Office and get it to account for that is virtually impossible. When I have asked parliamentary questions, they are referred to the Post Office. I will come on to the role of Ministers, but I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey) is no longer in his place, because I would have liked him to answer for his role—or lack of role—when he was the Minister.
The Post Office falls somewhere between a private company and a public company, but then there are the individuals involved, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (John Spellar) said. Paula Vennells was the chief executive of the Post Office. She left last year. Obviously, as a board member she knew what was going on, including the strategy in the court case and the bugs in the system. What happened? She got a CBE in the new year’s honours list for services to the Post Office. That is just rubbing salt into the wounds of these innocent people. There is a case for her having that honour removed, and I would like to know how she got it in the first place when the court case is ongoing. Added to that, she is now chair of Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust. Again, I would like to know why and what due diligence was done on her as an individual.
Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con)
I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his excellent speech and his stoical determination in trying to get to the bottom of this. Is he also aware that the head of Fujitsu UK is now working in the Cabinet Office?
Mr Jones
I do not know whether the hon. Lady has read my speech, but I am just coming on to the Cabinet Office, because lo and behold, guess where Paula Vennells also ended up? She was a non-executive member of the Cabinet Office. I am told that she was removed from that post yesterday; I do not know whether it was because of this debate. I welcome that, but why is someone who has overseen this absolute scandal still allowed to hold public positions? Worse than that, she is a priest. I respect those who have religious faith, and she does, but the way that she has treated these people cannot be described as very Christian—she certainly would not pass the good Samaritan test, given the way she has ignored their pleas. I hope she thinks about people like Tom, who have lost their livelihoods and are now living in social housing because of her actions. It angers me that these individuals have gone scot-free, and they need to be answerable for their actions.
John Spellar
Maybe she fulfils the role of the Pharisee in that parable. Does this not also speak to a deeper problem in our society, where relentlessly, time after time, the great and the good look after each other and hand out these positions to each other, irrespective of whether they have been successful or a massive failure? We see that particularly in the health service, where people move from job to job, taking payments each time they go and leaving catastrophic failures. Is this not a deeper failure in the system?
Mr Jones
It is, but how could somebody be given a CBE when this scandal was out there? How could somebody be appointed to the non-executive board of the Cabinet Office and a healthcare trust, given what is coming out of this court case? I find that remarkable.
Then there is the role of Government. When the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton was the Minister, he said that the Post Office
“continues to express full confidence in the integrity and robustness of the Horizon system and also categorically states that there is no remote access to the system or to individual branch terminals which would allow accounting records to be manipulated in any way.”
That is despite a board minute of 2009 which said that remote access was possible. What his role in it was I do not know, but he clearly did not ask many searching questions of the Post Office.
I turn to how we scrutinise the Post Office. I have tabled numerous written parliamentary questions, but because the Post Office is an arm’s length body, the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy shift them over to the Post Office—it is at arm’s length, and therefore it is nothing to do with the Department. There is a question here about how we can scrutinise the Post Office. This week, I asked a question about what the complex case review team in the Post Office is. My able assistant rang BEIS and asked, “What is it?” BEIS did not even know about it. The parliamentary question has now been given to the Ministry of Justice, but it does not know what that team is. I know that last week two cases were settled out of court, each for £300,000. This is public money we are talking about here, and we need full scrutiny. I would love to see whether the Minister can shed some light on what this organisation actually is.
Then we come to the role of Ministers. I have already mentioned the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton, but Jo Swinson, Claire Perry and the Minister’s immediate predecessor the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Kelly Tolhurst) were all involved. They all completely believed what they were being told by the Post Office, never asked any questions about how public money was being spent and allowed the Post Office to continue what it has been doing. The Government cannot say that they never knew about this, because when the new Government came to power in 2010, myself, James Arbuthnot and the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire went to see Oliver Letwin, then a Cabinet Office Minister, to put our case to him. He had sympathy for it, because he had a similar case in his constituency. What happened to that? Nothing happened at all. Clearly there is an issue that the Government cannot hide from it.
Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
My right hon. Friend is making an excellent case. I want to raise with him this issue about MPs not being able to find out what happened. In the Hillsborough inquiry, the Bishop of Liverpool talked about
“The patronising disposition of unaccountable power”.
This is a classic case of exactly that.
I also want to put on the record how grateful my constituent Janet Skinner is that MPs such as my right hon. Friend and others have pursued this matter for many years to try to get justice for the people involved.
Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)
The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the issue of Ministers. Of course the Post Office has a non-executive director appointed by the Government. One must assume that that non-executive director is reporting to Ministers. Would that not be an interesting topic for the inquiry?
Mr Jones
Yes, and I was going come on to that, because I would love to know who those non-executive directors have been over the years and what they said to Ministers. If I had been the Minister, I would have had that person in and scrutinised what was going on, as I am sure the right hon. Gentleman would. That would certainly have applied in the past few months, given the hundreds of millions of pounds that have been spent defending the indefensible.
In December, the Post Office agreed a settlement worth £57 million. Unfortunately, most of that has been swallowed up in the fees and the after-the-event insurance that the litigants had to afford. I do not criticise the lawyers—the people who funded this—because without them we would not have got justice, but that leaves about £15,000 for each of the successful people in the class action. We must recall that my constituent has lost more than half a million pounds, and the Post Office is settling cases outside this settlement for £300,000. What has to happen now is that a scheme has to be set up to compensate individuals properly. We must remember that £15 million of those costs were legal costs for pursuing the case, and £4 million of that is VAT, which will go straight back to the Government. Over the time that Paula Vennells was at the Post Office, she earned nearly £5 million, which just shows how the individuals who have been affected are not having happy retirements and peace of mind, but have been put through this system. The issue is clear to me: the figures that are being paid out now privately need a scheme.
I wish to make a couple of further points before I finish. The first is that the National Federation of SubPostmasters needs winding up now. It is not independent, nobody joins it—sub-postmasters are auto-enrolled. It is basically an arm of the Post Office and is paid for by the Post Office. Surely if it is going to be an independent voice for sub-postmasters, it should be that.
If anyone saw the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee hearing last week, they will have seen the chief executive, who could not answer on how many of his members had been affected by Horizon or what his organisation had done about it. I will tell the House exactly what it did: nothing. In Tom Brown’s case it just said that the Post Office must be right. The organisation is a sham and it needs to be wound up now. We need an independent organisation to represent sub-postmasters—including through the recognition of the Communication Workers Union, which some people are members of—that can actually be an independent voice for sub-postmasters.
The other thing that I, the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire and James Arbuthnot did was to take some cases to the Criminal Cases Review Commission, because there are people who have been found guilty and in some cases jailed unfairly. I pay tribute to that body, which took the issue seriously and took on a number of cases. It has stayed those cases—quite rightly, in my opinion—until the outcome of the civil litigation. It is important that those cases are now moved on and considered, because there are miscarriages of justice in some of those cases that need to be put right very quickly.
The right of the Post Office to take forward its own prosecutions needs to be removed. This issue goes back many centuries in the Post Office’s history. When Tom Brown asked whether he could get the police or the Crown Prosecution Service involved in looking at the evidence against him, he was told no. Likewise, it was the same for everyone else. Removing that right is something that the Government could do straight away, because there is no adequate oversight of how cases are being prosecuted. In Judge Fraser’s summing up, he described the contract and the way in which the Post Office acted as
“capricious or arbitrary ways which would not be unfamiliar to a mid-Victorian factory-owner”,
and said that the Post Office appears to
“conduct itself as though it is answerable only to itself.”
That is the case: it was answerable only to itself, with little or no insight in terms of oversight from Government.
Let me say what needs to be put right now. I have already mentioned that compensation needs to be put in place. We now need a full independent inquiry, and in a response in Prime Minister’s questions on 26 February, the Prime Minister indicated that that might be the case, calling the issue a “scandal”. In response to Lord Arbuthnot in the other place on 5 March, Lord Callanan said that the issue would be under consideration. We need as a matter of urgency an inquiry to cover not just what has gone on but how we can improve the situation for the future, and it has to be independent of Government. The Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee is looking into the matter, and I give credit to it for doing that, but we need some recommendations about what went on in the past. I am sorry, but as my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley said, we need to expose who did what. I have to say, if in some cases what I would argue was criminal activity took place, people have to be prosecuted. Given their involvement, they certainly need to be removed from any public bodies on which they currently serve.
The Minister’s predecessors have not been good at looking into this issue. They have not asked the right questions—they have not asked questions of their officials or the Post Office. The Minister now has a chance to put this right. I know that he spoke to Alan Bates yesterday, and I know that he is hiding behind the court case in terms of compensation—his officials are saying that they cannot get any more. I have to say: please do not do that. It is now time for bold action. If we do not take action, this injustice will continue.
Let me finish with this: my constituent Tom Brown should be enjoying a happy, well-funded retirement, but he is not. He is still a proud man, as I said—he is a man who has not lost his dignity—but he is living in social housing with his son, and that is not his fault; it is down to people such as Paula Vennells and the board at the Post Office, and the failure and cover-ups that have been perpetrated by individuals. The Government, who should have stood up for him, have turned a blind eye.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
Order. It will be obvious that we have just over an hour left for this debate, which is not long. I hope that we can manage without a time limit, and we will if everyone takes about five to six minutes. That does not mean seven to eight minutes.
Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)
I will try to complete my contribution in even less than five or six minutes, Madam Deputy Speaker.
The right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) has given a comprehensive explanation of the background to this case, and many of us taking part in this debate will be familiar with it. We have met constituents whose lives have been destroyed, which is not too strong a word to use.
I have six constituents who have been affected. They are decent, honest, hard-working individuals—indeed, they are public servants—but their lives have been wrecked. Some have lost their homes, and some now have a criminal conviction. Surely the Post Office will recognise that these people have not become criminals overnight. Why were no questions asked? During my 10 years in the House I have attended numerous debates on the issue and, to be absolutely honest, and as the right hon. Gentleman has said, Ministers have tried to wash their hands of it. They stood back when clear injustices were being ignored.
As Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance has said that, given the tyrannical conduct of the Post Office over the years, it had no alternative but to seek litigation. Scores of postmasters contacted the Post Office to tell it of discrepancies. They were not trying to hide them. Their actions were hardly those of someone deliberately engaging in fraudulent activity.
The judge was scathing in his remarks about the Post Office, and rightly so. The Post Office relied heavily on section 12, clause 12, of its contract with the sub-postmasters. The judge rightly drew attention to that. The clause states:
“The Subpostmaster is responsible for all losses caused through his own negligence, carelessness or error, and also for losses of all kinds caused by his Assistants. Deficiencies due to such losses must be made good without delay.”
Yet the judge found:
“It is not for a Subpostmaster to demonstrate that there was no negligence, carelessness or error on his or her part. It is for the Post Office to demonstrate that there is. It is only if the Post Office can demonstrate that there is a loss which falls within the scope of the clause, that it is entitled to rely upon the clause”.
As has been mentioned, it is staggering that Fujitsu could access a sub-postmaster’s account without his or her knowledge. That left it wide open—though one hopes that this was not the case—to others to interfere with the account entries.
It is perfectly obvious that Horizon is not fit for purpose. The attitude of the Post Office is a scandal and a disgrace. As I have said, successive Ministers have sought to wash their hands of this. Yes, the Post Office is an arm’s length body, but, as has been said, the Government cannot escape their share of responsibility. Circumstances have changed. Anyone who has read the judge’s remarks cannot avoid acknowledging that they have some responsibility. We now have a new Minister in post and he has an opportunity to show some sympathy. As with the previous debate on IR35, this is about correcting an injustice, and the Government, along with the legal process, have an opportunity to achieve that. The Government should act without delay in instituting a full, independent inquiry and compensate in full those who have suffered.
Financial compensation, though, can never wholly recompense those whose lives have been utterly and totally destroyed. I and, I am sure, other Members, have had people in our constituency surgeries who have been reduced to tears because of how the Post Office has treated them. They have been diligent public servants for many years, and it is intolerable that they have ended up in this situation. I urge the Minister to take action on this as quickly as possible.
Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) on securing this debate and on moving the motion. We have had discussions over the years about this case, which is a massive scandal, the likes of which I have not seen before.
Before my election to this House in 2010, I prosecuted and defended in criminal proceedings from my local chambers in Hull and, prior to that, I worked with a firm of criminal solicitors. It was there that I met Janet Skinner, who is a constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson). Janet Skinner was prosecuted by the Post Office for dishonesty—theft, fraud and other related offences. I took Janet Skinner’s instructions. It was a very brief encounter, from memory. It was probably a conference that would have lasted no more than 20 minutes, but I remember her instructions and, indeed, she has reminded me of them since. She could not understand why she was being accused of dishonesty. When she explained the situation to me, it was clear that what she had committed, if anything, was the offence of false accounting. Why? Because when her books did not balance, she would ring the helpline and it would tell her—and other sub-postmasters and mistresses—off the record, “You just need to make the books balance.” Effectively, they were told to make up numbers. The helpline said, “Put the information in, then you can close the system down for the night and trade the next day.” That was utterly disgusting.
My analogy is that it is like being trapped in a burning building. You ring the emergency services, you explain the situation and you are advised to smash a window to escape the building. Once you have, you are eventually prosecuted for criminal damage. That is the scenario. It is not a perfect analogy, certainly not for a criminal lawyer, because there is an inbuilt defence in criminal damage of reasonable excuse.
Janet Skinner was of good character, with no previous convictions. She reminded me recently that she had never even had so much as a parking ticket to her name. But if she had sat down with a probation officer for pre-sentence report, it was clear it would not be a good one. Why? Because she would have said, “I didn’t do anything.” When she was asked if she was sorry, she would have said, “No, I am not sorry because I do not think I have done anything wrong.” I did not represent her at the sentencing hearing as it happens, but when she was sentenced, the judge would have questioned whether she was likely to commit further offences because she had admitted no culpability whatever and she was not sorry. She was not sorry because she had done nothing wrong. We now know that she should not have been investigated, she should not have been interviewed and she certainly should not have been prosecuted. We now know that she should not have pleaded guilty to false accounting and that she certainly should not have gone to prison for nine months.
Since I have been involved in representing victims of this scandal, I have been contacted by other sub-postmasters, and a few days ago I received some startling documents. In 2006, a sub-postmaster was prosecuted. I have documents showing discussions between lawyers within the Post Office conceding that there was no theft, no dishonesty, no fraud and no false accounting in this case, yet she was prosecuted. It is utterly disgusting. When this person found out that these documents existed, because they had been leaked to her, she asked the Post Office whether they would produce the documents to the Criminal Cases Review Commission and she was met with aggression the likes of which I have never seen. She was told that these documents were privileged and that if they were leaked she could be in serious trouble. There was bullying, aggression, and constant lies from the very beginning—lie after lie after lie.
I have read Mr Justice Fraser’s judgment—it is a pleasure to read—and to someone reading the judgment it is clear that lies were constantly told. I am prepared to accept that Ministers and Government officials were misled from the very top of the Post Office and Fujitsu. What do we do now to put matters right?
Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con)
Does this not underline the simple fact in all of this, that the Post Office’s only consideration in all of this was to protect itself at the cost of the total injustice that so many people faced?
Karl Turner
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I have described this as the most grotesque version of predatory capitalism I have ever seen. Why? Because £1 billion was invested and senior officials in the Post Office and Fujitsu did everything they possibly could to protect themselves. They knew. Let us be absolutely clear about that. They knew that there were victims who might go to prison—or who had already gone, at that point. It is utterly disgusting.
Lucy Allan
I, too, have a constituent in exactly the situation the hon. Gentleman has described, who was 18 years old and was sent to Holloway for six months, accused of theft and failing to apologise to the grannies she was supposed to have stolen from. She has not had her name cleared. She has been waiting five years for the Criminal Cases Review Commission to do that.
Karl Turner
The hon. Lady is absolutely right. These sub-postmasters were respected in the community. The Post Office is a respected organisation that we should all be incredibly proud of, but that was part of the problem. The Post Office was believed. The lies that Ministers, officials and everyone else were told along the line were believed as well. That is why only a judge-led inquiry can possibly sort this out. We need to know who knew what, what they knew, when they knew it and why they acted as they did.
I want to say something briefly about one of those senior people in the Post Office, Paula Vennells. I do not know Paula Vennells but I do know that she apparently earned something in the region of £5 million over a six-year period. I believe wholeheartedly that she would have had a very good inkling of what was going on at the time. This is utterly scandalous and a judge will be the person who can get to the bottom of it.
Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)
I, too, congratulate the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and my hon. Friend the Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) on securing the debate. I have the privilege of representing Mr Alan Bates, who was the lead claimant in the proceedings that were settled in December. If it had not been for his tenacity and that of others, the consequences would have been that the wrongdoings of the Post Office and Fujitsu would have gone undetected and the reputations of many hundreds of completely decent, innocent people would have been completely destroyed without any hope of being repaired.
It is clear from the judgment delivered last year by Mr Justice Fraser that the Horizon system was, at all relevant times, defective. It is also clear that the Post Office and, by extension, its directors and, by further extension, its Government-appointed directors must have been aware that the system was defective. Notwithstanding that, for over 20 years, the Post Office stubbornly and aggressively continued to assert that the system was fit for purpose. Many innocent sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses lost their livelihoods, some of them went bankrupt, some of them were prosecuted and, indeed, some of them were sent to prison. It is an absolutely scandalous tale.
It is, indeed, a credit to Mr Nick Read, the new chief executive of the Post Office, that his intervention helped achieve a settlement to the legal dispute last December, but that settlement cannot be the end of the matter. The Government cannot simply regard the settlement as putting the Horizon issue to bed. As other hon. Members have said, after costs are taken into account, the settlement sums for those 500-plus litigants will be paltry. The Government have a duty to further compensate the sub-postmasters who have been so appallingly treated by a Government-owned company.
I will be brief, because I know others wish to speak, but there is a vehicle that could be used to pay that compensation. The Post Office operates a suspense account for unallocated money and, given the history we have heard today, I suggest there is rather a lot of unallocated money in the Post Office.
According to a 2015 report by Second Sight, unreconciled balances for the 2014 financial year were approximately £96 million in respect of Bank of Ireland ATMs and approximately £66 million in respect of Santander. Bank of Ireland and Santander are just two of approximately 170 so-called client accounts operated by the Post Office. The question of how much has been going into the Post Office’s profit and loss account from unreconciled balances would clearly have to be a matter for further inquiry. However, it is surely a source available to repay the costs of the claimants in these court proceedings.
To summarise, the Government owe a significant debt, both financial and moral, to the wronged sub-postmasters as a consequence of the deplorable conduct of those responsible for the direction of the Post Office, including non-executive directors appointed by the Government. Ministers should ensure that the debt is discharged as quickly and as fully as possible. Although it is pleasing to hear assurances from Ministers that they recognise the Post Office needs to do more to strengthen its relationship with sub-postmasters and to regain public trust, it would be even more pleasant to hear they are making arrangements to compensate the claimants as quickly and as fully as possible.
Finally, I fully support the calls for an independent inquiry, which the Government have a moral obligation to deliver.
Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab)
The Post Office Horizon scandal must rank as one of the most shocking and badly handled ever. Its impact on honest, hard-working sub-postmasters has been truly devastating and life changing. Even the compensation won by the sub-postmasters in their class action against the Post Office will do very little to replace the lost years of pain, suffering and social stigma due to being classed as criminals, when all these people set out to do was to earn an honest living.
One of those affected is my constituent Kamran Ashraf, whose wife was a sub-postmaster, and together they ran the business. Right from the beginning, using the Horizon software provided by the Post Office, there were shortfalls. In September 2003, the Post Office carried out an audit of their branch and found a shortfall of £25,000. Following investigation, the Post Office prosecuted Kamran and his wife, but because they had two small children, even though they had done nothing wrong, Kamran decided to plead guilty so that their children would not risk both their parents being incarcerated. In February 2004, he was sentenced to nine months’ imprisonment at Kingston crown court and, to add insult to injury, was fined £25,000.
Kamran and his wife lost their business and their home and had to enter into an individual voluntary arrangement to pay off creditors. Because of his conviction Kamran struggled to find work, and although his conviction is now spent and he has found employment, he still has that stain on his reputation because his conviction has not been overturned.
In August 2015 Kamran happened to chance on the BBC “Panorama” TV programme, which highlighted other cases identical to his, where sub-postmasters were prosecuted and convicted due to shortfalls in their takings following an audit. Dozens of sub-postmasters were affected and came forward and formed an action group called the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance, or JFSA for short. The JFSA, led by Alan Bates, brought a class action with a total of 557 sub-postmasters which was vigorously fought by the Post Office, and on 11 December 2019 the sub-postmasters were awarded £57.75 million in damages.
My right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) is right when he says that the biggest scandal of all was the fact that the Post Office denied that there was any flaw in the system but knew all along there was a problem, while innocent people were sent to prison.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
One other thing the Post Office must have known all along was that there was this huge spike in postmasters and postmistresses being reported and prosecuted, so they did not know that they were not alone in the matter, but the Post Office presumably knew that all this was going on at scale.
Bambos Charalambous
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right and makes an excellent point. Evidence about the infallibility of the system would have led to the conviction of these sub-postmasters, and that is why we need to look at how to progress this further. While after the trial the Post Office chairman conceded that it had got things wrong in the past, the fact was that the Post Office fought the action until the bitter end, and that speaks volumes.
Lucy Allan
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the way the Post Office conducted itself throughout the litigation process was shameful in terms of trying to grind down the claimants, so they would withdraw their claim?
Bambos Charalambous
The hon. Lady is absolutely right. The Post Office seemed to have unlimited funds at its disposal to fight this action, whereas the sub-postmasters had to collectively bring the action together and rely on support from free solicitors to get them through the case. The Post Office is an arm’s length organisation, but there seems to be no accountability for its actions, and in this matter there seems to be no scrutiny, despite it receiving public money for its functions.
Although the civil action may be over, the nightmare continues for my constituent. Kamran is still trying to get his conviction overturned. The Criminal Cases Review Commission board is meant to be meeting next week to discuss what steps it will be taking; I am not sure if that will be going ahead, but I hope it does. He is also still considering further civil action, and he is not alone. After having been failed by the legal system, it seems that justice is now finally being done, but at a very slow pace.
I therefore invite the Minister to do whatever it takes to get justice for the sub-postmasters, and I also join the call for an independent, judge-led public inquiry into this shocking scandal.
Jerome Mayhew (Broadland) (Con)
Scandals come and scandals go, and both as a former barrister and as a new Member of this House, it is all too easy when we see a raft of paperwork coming across our desks to scan through the details and forget that each of these scandals is made up of individual cases—individual human stories—so I beg the indulgence of the House and ask to reprise the story of Siobhan Sayer, a constituent of mine who 14 years ago was a sub-postmistress and had trouble balancing accounts. She did not hide this issue; she highlighted it and asked for help—indeed, she asked for help from the Post Office. Eventually, that help came, in the form of three auditors. They did not assist her in balancing the books. Instead, they suspended her, they accused her of theft, they searched her house, asking her where she had hidden the money, and then they interrogated her to such an extent that it stopped only when she physically collapsed. But it did not end there: they took the further step of prosecuting her, both for theft and for false accounting.
That young lady was pressurised to plead guilty to the lesser charge of false accounting in order to avoid a prison sentence for theft. As a former barrister, I can understand why, in the face of the seemingly impenetrable evidence of a robust system in the form of Horizon, that advice might have been given. Having pleaded guilty, she was sentenced to 10 months’ imprisonment, suspended for two years, and 200 hours of community service. That is terrible. That is a true scandal. But it is worse than that, because she was shamed in her community, she was ostracised by her friends, and her mental and emotional health was hit to such an extent that she was unable to leave her home for two years. That is the consequence of the actions and inactions of the Post Office and its servant, Fujitsu.
Why did that happen? Undoubtedly, it happened because the Post Office did not care to believe in the honesty of its own staff. It refused to believe that the system could be wrong, despite its own evidence mounting up to the contrary.
Mr Kevan Jones
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is remarkable that there is a minute showing that the Post Office board knew in 1999 that the system had its faults?
Jerome Mayhew
It is absolutely inexplicable, and it lasted right up to the evidence heard last year by Mr Justice Fraser. As was mentioned, he said that the Post Office acted rather like the flat earth society, refusing to believe even its own facts. But there is a strong suspicion that it went further than a refusal to believe; there was actually a question of dishonesty, particularly in the evidence given by Fujitsu. The learned judge expressed serious concerns about the veracity of that evidence and took the very unusual step of referring it to the Director of Public Prosecutions to consider whether criminal prosecutions should follow.
This matter was discovered only by the brave and tenacious actions of the victims themselves over a 10-year period, faced with unending delaying and cost-increasing tactics by the Post Office.
Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman is making an excellent speech. Does he agree that sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses are at the heart of many local communities and not only have the respect of those communities but deserve the respect of the Post Office and people in authority? This whole sorry saga shows a complete and utter lack of respect and trust. It is deeply disappointing and, as he suggests, it is deeply wrong.
Jerome Mayhew
I entirely agree. It was the very fact that postmistresses and postmasters are at the heart of the community that made the devastation of their reputations all the worse when they were unjustly accused by their employer of dishonesty and theft.
I conclude by imploring the Government not to hide behind the corporate veil. Albeit at arm’s length, the Post Office is a part of the Government—it is part of the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. It was referred to earlier as an example of unaccountable power, and I fully endorse that statement. It is part of a wider problem with the lack of accountability in quangos throughout our society. That leaves open only one sensible solution: a judge-led inquiry that has the power to investigate who knew what and when, and to give justice to these people and award real compensation.
Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con)
When I spoke in the Westminster Hall debate on 5 March, I said that I had a declaration of interest to make. May I declare that I was once a postmaster? In 2015, I was somewhat of a pin-up for the Post Office when I won postmaster of the year at the retail Oscars. Really, I could not sell a stamp; it is the team who should take all the honour. I resigned as a director of the company that ran those post offices and now have no interests. I also want to make it clear that none of my post offices or staff were affected by the scandal.
However, this is a valid point to make—I wonder whether anyone else in the Chamber can claim to have been a postmaster at any point in their career. I think it gives me a unique insight and ability to comment on this scandal. As I said in the Westminster Hall debate secured by my hon. Friend, the brilliant Member for Telford (Lucy Allan), I will concentrate on the governance issues. I shall make three points.
Not only have I used the Horizon system and had first-hand experience of making up the losses, which is always a worrying moment, but I can empathise utterly with the awful situation of the hundreds of innocent victims. We have heard it before and we will hear it time and again this afternoon: innocent people have lost their life savings and young people—men and women—have been jailed and then struggled to rebuild their lives because of the criminal record. I have constituents in North Norfolk who have gone through such trauma. Their story is every bit as dreadful as the other cases we will hear about.
I question whether the £58 million that has been set aside to recompense the victims will be enough. I think we probably all agree that it will not. After the lawyers take a large portion of that fund, what will be left? That is not right. The Government must intervene, as the main shareholder, to ensure that people are recompensed properly.
The board of Post Office Ltd is, unquestionably, accountable for this fiasco. Action must be taken so that board members are properly dealt with for this injustice. What kind of corporate governance structures failed to allow this to happen? Those who have been jailed and who have criminal records must have them overturned.
I turn to the three governance issues that need to be put right. Together, these issues show the failings in the organisation. My first point is about the total withdrawal of the Crown network. It is an absolute necessity that we still have a backbone of Crown post offices in this country. We have gone from 600 a few years ago to just 100. Why is that relevant? We are talking about systems like Horizon going wrong. If you have a backbone of Crown post offices that work effectively, they are often a test bed for new products and systems. They provide continuity in the network when so many franchised operations come and go depending on the operators’ success.
Let us also remember the staff, as an organisation is only as good as the people who work in it. It is the staff who are the real holders of long-standing deep knowledge, and they should act as the wider custodians of the network. If the Post Office had listened to its staff in the first place when they raised the flag, this perhaps would not have happened. There should be an immediate moratorium on the programme of Crown disposals to ensure that the Post Office’s backbone is preserved.
Secondly, a total decimation of the wider branch network is going on at the moment, and it remains a concern to many people—not just to the people who work in the Post Office, but to many communities that use it—that they and their communities are losing their branches. It is not anecdotal to suggest that the number of permanent sites falls year after year. All the longer-term projections will see them continue to go, despite the Government enforcing the Post Office to not shut its branches.
Let me go back to the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland (Jerome Mayhew), the eminent barrister that he is. His Fakenham branch closed just around Christmas time. Replacing a physical branch with a mobile post office is not adequate for that community. I urge the Minister to put some governance in place to make sure that such branches are not lost. I say to him, please step in to try to stop these closures, because these post offices are so vital in our communities.
My final point goes back to the remuneration of our sub-postmasters. It is really quite clear that the commissions that a sub-postmaster earns from running a post office are so low that many of the franchise operations have to have a retail offering as well. In many rural areas where footfall is lower—and it is getting lower all the time—we need to ensure that we preserve those that remain. We want to have a vibrant network, so will the Minister please look into that?
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
It is a pleasure to speak in this important debate, and I am grateful to the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) for bringing it forward and for his excellent speech.
One thing that we do well across this House is to stand up for David against Goliath. As many Members know, I have worked quite hard on similar issues in the banking sector, where, again, we see that David and Goliath issue. Members on both sides of the House stand up very well against Goliath on these occasions. I wonder whether our system does the same.
The issues that post offices face and the disgraceful treatment of sub-postmasters and mistresses have been highlighted very well here today. My question is: why have the courts not stood up for these people through these past 10 or 20 years? These matters have been before the court hundreds of times, yet the court has not found in favour of people who have been demonstrably innocent of the charges. That is not just what I think, but what Paul Marshall, a barrister at Cornerstone Chambers, says. He looked at these issues across the banking sector and in these cases and he finds that the courts are structurally biased in favour of large, trusted brands. That cannot be right. I was always brought up to believe that everybody could get justice. The rules of court require the courts to maintain a fair and level playing field, yet, as we know, the courts are open to all, just like the Ritz hotel. There is a structural imbalance between a sub-postmaster or mistress when they go to the courts and the phalanx of lawyers provided by the Post Office. The courts are used to suppress the truth, and that cannot be right. There have been 110 prosecutions. Back in 2007, in the case of the Post Office Ltd v. Lee Castleton, Judge Havery found that there was irrefutable evidence against Mr Castleton, despite the fact that there was no evidence. That was just his statement; there was no evidence that the Post Office was in the right.
We know that the Post Office knew that this was going on after the Second Sight report. The prosecutions stopped at one point, but of course they then carried on. We have seen similar issues at Lloyds bank, which knew back in 2007 that this stuff was going on, yet did nothing and carried on as if it was in the right until the case came to court 10 years later. It tried to discredit a whistleblower and the victims. The same happened at Royal Bank of Scotland.
We must ask questions of the system: of the Post Office, of course, about who knew what and when—I support the calls for a public inquiry and proper compensation—and of the solicitors who acted for the Post Office. There are some ethical issues here. The Solicitors Regulation Authority should look into the actions of Womble Bond Dickinson, which represented the Post Office in 2007. It knew about the Second Sight report yet continued to support the Post Office’s case. The same happened at Lloyds with Herbert Smith Freehills.
We must examine the system. The justice system—the judiciary, the Justice Secretary, the Civil Procedure Rule Committee—must learn lessons from this. Why should it take 12 years and £40 million in legal fees to get justice? That cannot be right. We must have a justice system that works for all.
David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)
As others have done, I thank the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) for securing the debate. I will try to cut my speech to allow others to get in.
As we have heard, ordinary men and women throughout the UK have had their lives ruined by the scandal. Two constituents have had their lives turned upside down. I will say more about the trauma and anguish that they have been through later.
Although the court case has concluded, it is not enough to bring closure for those families, many of whom have endured 10 years of trauma. The Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance was formed in 2009, but it took until last December to get the settlement agreed. Any struggle for justice is difficult, but being put through a decade of hardship and anguish is more than many of us would have the fortitude to endure.
For my constituent Jacqueline El Kasaby and her husband, it was too much. They were not part of the group legal action because they had already settled through the earlier mediation. Their story is a little different from that of those who went on to pursue a legal remedy in that they just could not continue the fight. Who can blame them? Facing a bill of £36,000, the El Kasabys agreed to settle by paying the Post Office £10,000. The El Kasabys knew that they had done nothing wrong, but they had no fight left in them, and, thinking they had no redress, just wanted to start to close that chapter in their lives. They scraped the money together and continue to pay the mental, emotional and financial cost to this day.
What of those, like the El Kasabys, who settled through mediation and were forced to pay bills that were not theirs to settle? Given what we know now about the culpability of the Post Office and Fujitsu in the scandal, what action will the Government take urgently to ensure justice for them? Speaking to my office last week, Jacqueline outlined the position she now faces due to the covid-19 outbreak. She has been dealt a double whammy in that she is losing income and struggling to pay a previous debt accrued as a result of the Horizon faults. As a matter of urgency, will the Government step in and ask the Post Office to pay back those settlement amounts immediately and to reopen the remediation cases?
Another constituent, Mrs Elizabeth Barnes, was part of the group legal action. She will receive a pay-out, but does not know exactly how much. As other hon. Members have said, a lot of it will be subsumed in legal fees. One thing is for sure: she will not be paid anywhere near what she deserves. Once the costs associated with funding the action are subtracted, the claimants will receive much less than they should get. Mrs Barnes has one ask of the Government: to back her and the others by paying the funding so that she and 554 others get what they deserve. The Government must take some responsibility for cleaning up the mess.
Serious questions remain about the mess: about oversight and what was known by whom about the ham-fisted attempts to try to cover it up. Post Office Ltd may be an arm’s length organisation, but a Government shareholder sat on that board throughout the period when the scandal occurred. Why was the saga allowed to drag on for so long when it was apparent that the problems were so widespread? Why was £100 million of public money spent defending the case when it was clear that the Post Office had no business continuing to prosecute innocent people? Why are the Government not taking more action to put things right, given all the injustices that have been laid bare, particularly this afternoon?
All too often, the Government cite post offices as ideal replacements for bank branches that have closed, but Post Office Ltd struggles desperately to get sub-postmasters to take on branches. Tollcross post office in my constituency was closed for almost two years before finally reopening in December. Who can be surprised that that challenge exists when sub-postmasters have been treated as horrifically as the El Kasabys and Mrs Barnes?
One other point I wish to make is the need for a public inquiry. In response to the hon. Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne), the Prime Minister seemingly gave a commitment at PMQs to get to the bottom of this matter through such an inquiry, and I would expect further details to be divulged by the Government today.
I will conclude, but I want to comment that, given the sheer scale of this scandal, it is surprising that there has not been more media coverage. An honourable mention should be given to the freelance journalist Nick Wallis, who has been following the case since 2010. The independent online technology outlet, The Register, also deserves commendation for continuing to cover this story. With the campaign group up against such massively well-funded organisations, this really has been a David and Goliath story, as the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) mentioned. It is right to put on record our appreciation of those who have ensured that this story and the plight of those involved have been reported. I very much look forward to the Minister’s response, and I hope he takes this opportunity to start putting things right.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) on securing this incredibly important debate. I particularly commend my right hon. Friend for his work on this issue over many years and for his excellent opening remarks. Like him, I pay tribute to the hundreds of sub-postmasters who have faced unimaginable hardship as a result of this scandal, and I want to celebrate the work of Alan Bates, who has helped to secure some justice for 557 sub-postmasters.
As we have heard from Members on both sides of the House, a truly shocking number of individuals and families have had their lives impacted by the shameful way that Post Office Ltd has conducted itself throughout this process. Hundreds of sub-postmasters have been accused of fraud and forced to pay back thousands of pounds. They have faced bankruptcy and conviction, and financial compensation alone will never repair the damage caused.
Speaking as a former software engineer myself, I am upset and truly disappointed at the way in which technology has been used as an instrument of torture. An IT deployment of this kind—one of the most expensive in the history of the United Kingdom—should have had users and people at its heart. It should not have been turned into a living nightmare—a living nightmare that continues for many sub-postmasters to this day.
Many MPs have told the stories of sub-postmasters from their constituencies. In Newcastle upon Tyne Central, sub-postmasters have suffered mental health problems brought about by this scandal. One young woman affected was still a teenager when convicted of fraud, and she has faced unemployment and financial ruin. As we have heard from other right hon. and hon. Members, she has been ostracised from her community and shunned by friends and neighbours. Sadly, her case is far from unique, and I want to pay tribute to all those who have suffered in this way.
In December, after a long trial in which the Post Office’s heavy-handed actions against its own staff came to light, it agreed to pay a £58 million settlement to the 557 sub-postmasters who had brought action against it. In his verdict, Mr Justice Fraser stated that the Post Office treated its sub-postmasters in
“capricious or arbitrary ways which would not be unfamiliar to a mid-Victorian factory-owner.”
He also described its long-standing defence of the Horizon system as
“the 21st century equivalent of maintaining the earth is flat.”
We appear to have a Dickensian, flat earth society running our precious network of local post offices.
On the Criminal Cases Review Commission’s review of the convictions of those affected by the Horizon scandal, such an extraordinary set of circumstances requires a bespoke response. The Government have parroted the Post Office’s line that those wrongly convicted must each bring their own individual appeal forward. However, it is simply not right to require those already in financial ruin to incur yet more costs in the fight to clear their name. Will the Government therefore consider giving the CCRC the mechanism it needs to assess the case for a group expungement of those convicted due to faults with the Horizon system?
This is a Government-owned company that has been found to have been at fault. It is therefore of the utmost importance that the Government act to improve the corporate structure of the Post Office to prevent this kind of thing from ever happening again. More should have been done to address the issue before it was allowed to develop into the scandal it is, but all we can do now is ensure that those wrongly convicted get justice and lessons are learned. Unfortunately, the close relationship that the Government have with the architects of Post Office Ltd’s vicious pursuit of sub-postmasters means that they are unable to create an environment that allows the necessary large-scale changes to happen.
I welcome the fact that Paula Vennells, the former chief executive of the Post Office who was so heavily criticised by Justice Fraser, appears no longer to serve on the Cabinet Office board, but why on earth did the Government allow that appointment to be made? Why did they not act sooner to distance themselves from those responsible for impacting the lives of so many?
As we have heard, on 26 February, the Prime Minister, in answer to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne), appeared to commit to a full public inquiry into the Horizon scandal. When we hear from the Minister, I hope he will be able to provide more detail on the timescale and scope of that inquiry. Again, it is worth emphasising that litigation was brought to address the errors of a Government-owned company. A civil servant sits on the board of the Post Office. Its only shareholder is the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, so more should have been done to address the scandal before it was allowed to fester to this extent. Serious questions need to be answered about the relationship between the company and the Government.
The Government appear to be content to act as the Post Office’s parliamentary organ throughout this process, claiming that the December settlement was the end of the matter. Nothing could be further from the truth for the people who are still fighting for justice, and that is why we need a judge-led independent inquiry to take place as soon as feasibly possible.
I want to say a word about the Communication Workers Union, which identified flaws in the Horizon system back in 2015 and has worked hard to secure the inquiry. It has said that it is happy to work with us to ensure that it is timely and independent. So far, we have not seen any accountability for the lives and reputations that have been ruined. That is why securing this independent inquiry will be such a big victory for sub-postmasters, trade unions and justice. The Government failed to live up to their responsibility and prevent the scandal occurring. I hope the Minister has listened carefully to the excellent contributions from all parts of the House and will use his influence to ensure that justice is delivered for the hundreds of sub-postmasters wronged and to hold those responsible to account.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)
First of all, I congratulate the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and my hon. Friend the Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen), who cannot be here today, for securing today’s important debate. I thank all Members for their contributions to this excellent and heartfelt debate.
We know that the Government recognise the role of post offices, and that was articulated by my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Duncan Baker). It is so important that we make sure that we build on the network. There is no programme of closures—there have actually been 400 new post offices in the past few years, and I want to make sure that we can develop on that, although individual post offices may open or close at various points. I want to make sure that I spend the rest of my time covering as many as possible of the questions that have been raised in this interesting debate.
It is impossible to ignore the impact that the litigation process has had on the affected postmasters and their families. We have heard about Tom Brown, Janet Skinner, Alan Bates, Kamran Ashraf, Siobhan Sayer, Elizabeth Barnes and Jacqueline El Kasaby, among others. As my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland (Jerome Mayhew) said, they are all real people, not just people on a spreadsheet or a list. They are individuals whose families have been affected, so I will not hide and I will not wash my hands of it. It is so important that we get as much done as possible, even if we cannot achieve everything that has been asked.
I am glad that the Post Office has accepted that it got it wrong in the past on the Horizon accounting system and in its dealings with a number of postmasters, and that it has apologised. I am glad that we got a comprehensive resolution to the litigation following several days of respectful, challenging and ultimately successful mediation, although several hon. Members have raised issues about where we go from here.
Beyond the financial settlement, the Post Office committed to directly address past events for affected postmasters, so it will shortly announce a scheme to address the historical shortfalls for postmasters who were not part of the group litigation. That scheme has been designed to offer a fair, fast and transparent means for postmasters’ historical issues to be resolved.
The terms of the settlement put the onus on the Post Office to implement the necessary cultural and organisational changes highlighted by the litigation, which means that the company should foster a genuine commercial partnership with postmasters. Clearly, it has to settle its past relationship with postmasters to look forward and ensure that postmasters can have confidence in their future relationship with it.
It is important that the necessary support for postmasters to operate branches successfully is available. That includes newly established area managers to deliver support on the ground, an improved branch support centre to support teams throughout the UK, an overhaul of postmaster training and, above all, a further increase to postmaster remuneration, as we heard earlier.
In terms of the management of the Post Office, there is a new chief executive officer and two new non-executive directors, so its leadership has changed significantly in the last few months as a result of the situation. I recognise the strength of feeling surrounding the case, which is why the Government and I are determined to take the necessary steps to ensure that lessons are learned from the Horizon litigation and that past issues will not be repeated.
We have talked about the independent review, which the Prime Minister mentioned a couple of weeks ago. We are looking at the best way to do it. There will be a further announcement as soon as possible in the very near future. I know that hon. Members want progress, but I want to ensure that we get it right, rather than rushing into the terms of reference and other details. I want to make sure, as I said, without hiding and without washing my hands of it, that we actually get something that means something to the affected postmasters.
Lucy Allan
Does the Minister agree that the most important thing is for the wrongful convictions to be overturned? We cannot learn lessons and move forward if that is not addressed. Will he please address that point?
Paul Scully
That is why the CCRC is looking at those cases and will therefore be able to refer them to the Court of Appeal accordingly. That option is now available, which would not normally be available without the CCRC looking at those cases.
I look forward to speaking at the Select Committee hearing that is due to be held on 24 March, covid-19 notwithstanding. The Government continue to proactively challenge the Post Office to restore and strengthen its relationship with postmasters and to deliver the terms of the settlement. On Monday, I met the Post Office’s chair and CEO to seek assurance on the steps being taken. Alongside my officials, I will work to make sure that we hold them and their governance to account.
In terms of future governance, the Post Office is a large, complex and diverse business, so it is important that it is allowed the commercial freedom to compete in the challenging markets it operates in. It must, however, be accountable to the Government for its decisions, as we have heard. Following the litigation and the subsequent settlement, the Government will monitor the Post Office closely to ensure that it delivers on its commitments to improving the organisational relationship with postmasters.
Paul Scully
I will not, because I am running out of time. I stress that the Government have robust mechanisms in place to maintain oversight of the Post Office, and they are regularly reviewed. I have regular meetings with its chief executive officer and chair, and the Government have increased the frequency of wider shareholder meetings to make sure that, among other things, the actions arising out of the litigation can be tracked. UK Government Investments, as the shareholder representative for the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, challenges the Post Office on its corporate governance and strategy, and on its stewardship of financial and other resources on behalf of shareholders, as well as holding a non-executive seat on Post Office Ltd’s board.
The Department also recently expanded the BEIS Post Office policy team, which works closely with UKGI to hold the Post Office to account at official level. We have a new framework document that makes sure that the responsibilities and accountabilities of the Post Office, BEIS and UKGI are clearly defined. We will publish that soon. It includes an open and transparent information-sharing agreement between the Government and the Post Office.
I will meet the Communication Workers Union, which has been referred to, at the end of the month to understand the views of postmasters—I look forward to that—and will be tracking progress at the highest levels of the Post Office in quarterly ministerial meetings with the CEO, Nick Read. Governance arrangements between the Government and all its arm’s length bodies are kept under regular review. In the light of developments in the Post Office, the Government have considered and addressed all those arrangements.
The right hon. Member for North Durham talked about the Post Office’s right to prosecute. This was a private prosecution; individuals and companies can bring such prosecutions—they are not limited to the Post Office. There is, however, a continuing duty to disclose material information that comes to light that might relate to the safety of any conviction, so the CCRC and those convicted will be able to take up that information.
I will write to the right hon. Member for North Durham with more detail about the Post Office serious case review team to which he referred. BEIS has pressed management on the issues around past prosecutions of postmasters, instigated a review of the Post Office’s handling of that in 2015, and supported the Second Sight mediation scheme. The chair committed to the review in 2015, but it took all the litigation for all the facts to come to light. The suspense account was referred to; Nick Read wrote to Lord Arbuthnot recently on the subject, and we will monitor it closely. On the CCRC and the convictions that the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) talked about, there is a meeting on 24 March to consider those cases further.
To conclude, I reassure the House that the Government are working hand in hand with post offices, the Post Office, postmasters and other stakeholders to ensure that there is follow-through on the lessons learned from the litigation and the steps to be taken following the settlement. I look forward to sharing with Members as soon as possible further details of the review on the issue promised by the Prime Minister. I will leave a minute for the right hon. Member for North Durham, but I thank all postmasters—those impacted by the litigation and those not—for the value that they add in providing an exceptional service to communities, people and businesses across the UK, and for their contribution to this case. I thank hon. Members once again for their contributions to this excellent debate, and for their interest in the Post Office.
Mr Kevan Jones
I thank all hon. and right hon. Members who took part in the debate. Could I say one thing to the Minister? He should not just parrot what his civil servants say to him. The court case did not result in a comprehensive settlement. He has admitted that the Criminal Cases Review Commission is settling cases that did not come before the court. His Department did not even know what that was when we rang it this week. Two such cases were settled in the last month for £300,000 each. If we are to get justice, we have to look at giving the same amount of compensation to those who took the court case forward.
The Minister has an opportunity here. I have been a Minister, and it is a great privilege, but it is not about sitting on that Front Bench or carrying the red box; it is about making a difference. The Minister has an opportunity to make a real difference and put right a wrong. He cannot carry on as his predecessors have done and ignore the truth. I challenge him: be brave, Minister. Please, put this right; it is in your hands. No matter what obstruction he has from his officials, he should challenge them.
Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)).
Business without Debate
Gambling Advertising in Sport
(4 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)
Before we proceed, I should say that we have had official apologies from the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who is unable to be with us but sends his best wishes.
Gambling advertising in sport has grown exponentially since the Gambling Act 2005, and gambling is now virtually synonymous with sport. With 1.8 million at-risk gamblers in the UK and approximately 500 suicides linked to gambling every year, this is something that should be of huge concern to every one of us.
Although all sport is affected by gambling, there are some frightening statistics on the relationship between gambling and football, the nation’s favourite game. Half of all premier league shirts are emblazoned with gambling-company logos, with 10 out of the 20 premier league clubs having signed deals worth a combined £69 million. Malta-based firm Betway is the biggest contributor, as a result of its £10 million deal with West Ham. Clubs stand to earn nearly £350 million from such deals in the coming season—that is an increase of more than 10% on the 2018-19 season.
Betting’s dominance is even more pronounced in the championship, where 17 out of the 24 club shirts display a betting logo, meaning that 27 of England’s top 44 clubs have secured highly profitable shirt-sponsorship deals with the gambling industry. It frightens me how much influence those logos will have on children, and on those who are already struggling with a gambling addiction.
I have spoken to problem gamblers who have freely told me that they watch football merely to seek out the names of new companies with which they can open gambling accounts. With high-profile names further promoting these deals, gambling will be even more normalised among young people. An example is Wayne Rooney, who has been wearing the No. 32 shirt at Derby County since January, as part of the club’s partnership with 32Red.
Although around 80% of gambling advertising budgets is now spent online, there is still a worryingly vast amount of opportunities during sports programmes on television for vulnerable people to be bombarded with gambling advertisements. In a recent study, Professor Jim Orford from the University of Birmingham noted that gambling logos are on screen for 70% of the time during “Match of the Day” programmes in the United Kingdom. Analysis of live sports on television found that gambling adverts are particularly prominent during football matches. During one game between Scottish teams Rangers and Celtic, gambling brands were visible on 920 occasions—that is equivalent to once every 10 seconds.
David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)
I thank the hon. Lady for giving way. I declare an interest, in so far as I am the MP for Celtic football club, which is in my constituency. I must confess that I am quite uncomfortable with both Rangers and Celtic having such sponsorship on their tops. In a debate in Westminster Hall earlier this week, the Minister was keen to tell us that attendance at football is going up. The reality is that the demographic tends to be young, low-income men, and the exposure to these betting firms is not good for public health. I commend the hon. Lady for raising this issue, and I hope she will keep going and ask these clubs to think again.
Carolyn Harris
I will come to that in my speech.
Shockingly, gambling advertising is also prevalent on the shirts in the video game “FIFA 2020”—the country’s best-selling video game, which is recommended for ages three and above and is a firm favourite of many young children. Those children may not be aware of the nature of the sponsors’ business, but they will be aware of the names, and in time, they will come to realise the type of company that those names represent.
An analogy of this is my assistant’s 11-year-old son, Thomas. He can easily identify the flags of the world from just playing FIFA games. For obvious reasons, we have not asked him to identify the logos of the gambling companies, but children are absorbing this information every time they play these games.
It certainly feels like the gambling industry is tightening its grip on the world of sport, and especially football. Nearly every club now has an official gambling partner, and aside from the shirt sponsorship deals, many clubs have betting outlets inside their stadiums, and many leagues are sponsored by the industry. As we have learned from the recent Bet365 debacle, until recently, some matches were only available through betting company apps.
In recent weeks, I have written to the big six Premier League clubs—Liverpool, Manchester United, Manchester City, Tottenham Hotspur, Chelsea and Arsenal—to ask them to meet me and colleagues from the gambling-related harm all-party parliamentary group, to discuss the deals they have with gambling companies and their plans. Interestingly, Tottenham replied within 24 hours, readily agreeing to meet, while Manchester United contacted my office to say they had asked the Premier League to represent them at a meeting. I have not heard back from the other four. I understand the importance of an industry body having a presence at a meeting, but I see no purpose in their attending in place of the clubs to talk about the deals that the clubs are responsible for.
It really worries me that vulnerable people are being groomed by the gambling industry through advertising. The Advisory Board for Safer Gambling has said that, by not taking action to limit the exposure of young people to gambling advertising,
“we are in danger of inadvertently conducting an uncontrolled social experiment on today’s youth, the outcome of which is uncertain but could be significant.”
The sector urgently needs to adopt a more responsible approach on advertising, particularly during sports programmes, to protect children and the vulnerable. Paddy Power’s “joke” football shirt sponsorship deal last year with Huddersfield Town, which got huge publicity, is an indictment of the current state of gambling sponsorship proliferation.
So, what should be done? First, of course, the industry itself must take action. The gambling-related harm APPG welcomes the whistle-to-whistle television ban. But for the advertising ban to be truly effective, these companies should go even further, to include shirt and league sponsorship and digital advertising around the pitch. Otherwise, children and vulnerable adults will continue to be bombarded with gambling adverts. That is something we hope to discuss with the Premier League clubs we have written to, who I hope to eventually get to meet.
I must also mention Lewes football club, which is soon to launch a charter to get other clubs to commit to ending gambling advertising in football in the same way that it has. The charter urges clubs to: never accept any form of sponsorship or donation from the gambling industry; actively promote and raise awareness of the risk of gambling addiction; lobby fellow clubs, leagues and the Football Association to refuse to advertise or promote gambling in football; and to support people and families affected by gambling addiction. I have had a brief conversation with my local club, Swansea City, which has gambling sponsorship but understands the issues and is actively seeking a way to sign up to that charter when it is in a position to do so.
It is also worth bearing in mind that the broadcasters have been quite resistant to the clampdown on advertising. Television companies have an important role to play, and they must start acknowledging and improving how they deliver on their duty of care to viewers.
Given the limited progress on dealing with gambling advertising, it seems that the time has come for a blanket ban on gambling advertising in sport. That is what we had before the Gambling Act 2005, and I am going to usurp the Minister by saying that, yes, that was Labour Government legislation, but I was not a member of that Government. Had I been, I would have objected to that Act in the strongest terms.
In the upcoming gambling review, there is much that I will ask the Government to do. However, on this issue, I urge them, as a matter of urgency, to bring an end to the highly profitable, yet highly damaging relationships between sports clubs and the gambling industry. A good place to start would be to talk to organisations such as The Big Step, which work tirelessly to promote the message of no gambling advertising in sports.
Many of us are willing to work with the Government to get this right. We have the voices. We have the knowledge. I ask the Government to let us help them transform and neutralise the damaging consequences of problem gambling.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Nigel Huddleston)
I thank the hon. Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) for her tireless work in advocating for those who have suffered, or are at risk of suffering, gambling harms. I have no wish to make party political points on this issue, because I believe there is a wish on both sides of the Chamber for further action.
I would like to address the concerns that have been raised about gambling advertising and sponsorship of sport. The Gambling Act 2005 does indeed permit licensed operators to advertise in a socially responsible manner. Gambling is a permitted activity and a competitive market in this country, so it follows that businesses in the sector are able to market their product. The ability to advertise is a key advantage that licensed operators have over the black market. If we removed that advantage, we would undermine our ability to ensure that gambling is conducted in a fair and open way, that it remains crime-free, and that children and vulnerable people are protected.
Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab)
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way on that point. I appreciate the point he is making about gambling being a legal activity. One thing that struck me in the speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris), which was so eloquent and detailed, was the sheer, overwhelming presence of gambling advertising, particularly when it comes to young and vulnerable people. My son, who is now at university, used to play FIFA20, or its predecessors. Many children do, and the fact that this advertising is accessible to children is deeply worrying. It is also worrying that it is so ubiquitous at sports grounds, where young people are bombarded by it. Will the Minister say something about the way in which the Government could scale back the level of advertising?
Nigel Huddleston
I thank the hon. Member for his comments. He may be tempting me to pre-empt the conclusions of the gambling review that we will be conducting, and I will say more about it later. However, that review will be forthcoming—it was in the manifesto—and we will all have plenty of opportunity to look further into these issues. I cannot say too much more on the specifics at the moment, but I understand the point he is making.
It is true that operators are spending far more on advertising. Research has indicated that operators have increased their spend on advertising and marketing significantly in recent years. It would be easy to assume that that has led to increased rates of gambling or of problem gambling, but, according to the Gambling Commission, the percentage of those who gambled in the last year was 47%, which was 1% less than the percentage who gambled in 2016, and rates of problem gambling have remained relatively steady, at below 1% for the past 20 years. Before the hon. Member for Swansea East intervenes, as I know she will on that point, let me say that that is too high—that is one thing we agree on. We continue to keep a careful eye on the evidence, but more advertising does not seem to lead to more people gambling or more people suffering from gambling problems.
However, there are clearly legitimate concerns about problem gambling. I am pleased that the industry has listened to concerns, such as those raised by the hon. Lady, and has acted to some extent: it has extended existing restrictions on pre-watershed advertising to include live sport—the so-called “whistle-to-whistle ban” that she mentioned.
Protecting children and other vulnerable people from gambling harms is a priority for the Government. Gambling advertising, like alcohol, is already governed by strict rules to ensure that it is not targeted at children and is not of particular appeal to them. Where advertising breaches these rules, the commission can and does take action.
We know that millions of people gamble each year and that nearly 7% of the population bet on sport last year. Most of those people will suffer no harm, but gambling does carry risks. That is why, as part of the last gambling review that took place between 2016 and 2018, we secured a commitment from industry to fund a multimillion-pound safer gambling advertising campaign to highlight the risks and encourage safer gambling behaviours.
Of course, advertising is not the whole story; sponsorship is an important source of income for sporting teams and bodies, as the hon. Member for Swansea East mentioned. The Gambling Commission has been clear that operators must undertake their sponsorship activities in a socially responsible way. The FA has strict rules about the size and placement of operator logos and has taken action when those have been breached. Logos cannot feature on shirts worn by youth team players and on merchandising, including shirts in children’s sizes. Paddy Power’s stunt with Huddersfield led to the FA fining the club.
Carolyn Harris
Perhaps I can just enlighten the Minister: if a child is of a larger size and cannot get a shirt to fit in a child’s size, they end up having the logo on the front of it, so unless clubs make a special effort to have adult shirts without logos, which they are obviously not going to because it is not in their interests, children are able to wear shirts with logos on.
Nigel Huddleston
The hon. Lady is making a fair point and, as I said, I am sure that all these things will be considered in the gambling review. The remit of the review has not yet been scoped, but she will have strong opinions on it—of that I have no doubt.
Matt Rodda
The Minister is being extremely gracious to other Members in giving way. Perhaps the review might consider the family nature of watching sport in Britain because, in many cases, families are going to football or to other sport together, and the adults and children are wearing replica shirts together. They are watching the team together, so the presence of the gambling logo is ubiquitous—it is everywhere. I hope that he can address that issue in his review and take it very seriously, because it is easy for children to inadvertently be exposed to logos or attractive advertising, which can affect their perception of gambling very seriously.
Nigel Huddleston
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. One of the great joys of sport is that it can be a family activity, and we want to minimise any dangers that can be the unintended consequences of participating or observing those activities.
The gambling industry has committed to developing and adopting a new code of conduct for sponsorship activities by the end of 2020. We and the Gambling Commission will be reviewing its efforts closely to ensure that they go far enough. As I have mentioned, we have committed to reviewing the Gambling Act 2005 to make sure that it is fit for the digital age. We will announce further details in due course, but I assure the hon. Member for Swansea East that the Government and the Gambling Commission will not put our work to minimise harm on hold while the review takes place. We will always act on the evidence to prevent harm.
We have already delivered on our manifesto commitment to ban credit card gambling, and we have made it mandatory for operators to be part of GAMSTOP, the national online self-exclusion scheme.
Charlotte Nichols (Warrington North) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for giving way, and my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) for securing this vital debate and the important points that she made about gambling advertising, particularly to young people in video games such as FIFA. I am pleased that there are restrictions on gambling on credit cards, for example, but bets from student loans are a real concern for young people getting into problem gambling. Will the Minister say whether that will be looked into as part of the gambling review?
Nigel Huddleston
The hon. Lady tempts me to pre-empt the scope of the review, but we will listen very carefully to what elements should be considered, and again, she makes an important point. I reiterate that, during the review and in the run-up to the review, we will not stop looking at all elements of gambling harm. Although the review is an important element of the debate, we need to continue the dialogue while it is happening, and I believe I will be coming to the APPG at some point in the not-too-distant future to continue that dialogue.
At the same time as strengthening protections, we are expanding the safety net for those who get into difficulty. The NHS long-term plan will see up to 14 new specialist gambling clinics across the country, three of which are now open. We are also working closely with the Department of Health and Social Care and other Departments on a cross-Government addiction strategy, which will be published later this year. We are, of course, in very difficult times, and I assure all hon. Members that support is, and will continue to be, available for those who need it. The national gambling helpline remains open around the clock.
I am pleased to see the House’s commitment to the aim of reducing gambling harms, as well as its enthusiasm and advocacy for sport itself. I reassure hon. Members that strong protections are already in place, and the Government will continue to act on the evidence to make gambling safer.
Question put and agreed to.
Ministerial Corrections
(4 years, 8 months ago)
Ministerial CorrectionsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Digital, Culture, Media and Sport
(4 years, 8 months ago)
Ministerial CorrectionsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Nigel Huddleston
…On the point about fundraising and ensuring that Birmingham and the west midlands receive adequate financial support to ensure that the games are successful—we are talking about more than £750 million of Government money going into the games—I will happily work with the hon. Lady to ensure she is comfortable that the west midlands are indeed getting a substantial proportion of Government expenditure for that.
[Official Report, Birmingham Commonwealth Games Public Bill [Lords] Committee, 17 March 2020, Vol. 673, c. 7.]
Letter of correction from the Under-Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston)
An error has been identified in my response to the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West) in the Birmingham Commonwealth Games Public Bill [Lords] Committee on Tuesday 17 March 2020.
The correct response should have been:
Nigel Huddleston
…On the point about fundraising and ensuring that Birmingham and the west midlands receive adequate financial support to ensure that the games are successful—we are talking about more than £750 million of public investment going into the games—I will happily work with the hon. Lady to ensure she is comfortable that the west midlands are indeed getting a substantial proportion of Government expenditure for that.
Health and Social Care
(4 years, 8 months ago)
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Ms Dorries
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I will go on to talk about waiting times, but he is absolutely right. It is a trial that we have rolled out to ensure that, across the country, anybody who presents with a serious first instance eating disorder is seen within one week and routine cases are seen with specialist help within four weeks. That has been rolled out and tested across the country by NHS England, and I am incredibly impressed at some of the statistics that I am hearing; I thank the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South for citing her own constituency.
This is a trial and, as we know, everybody has yet to meet the standards; that is the responsibility also of the clinical commissioning groups, because this is quite complicated.
[Official Report, 5 March 2020, Vol. 672, c. 396WH.]
Letter of correction from the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Ms Dorries).
An error has been identified in the speech I made on Thursday 5 March 2020.
The correct statement should have been:
Ms Dorries
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I will go on to talk about waiting times, but he is absolutely right. It is one of the first trials that we have since rolled out to ensure that, across the country, anybody who presents with a serious first instance eating disorder is seen within one week and routine cases are seen with specialist help within four weeks. That has been rolled out and tested across the country by NHS England, and I am incredibly impressed at some of the statistics that I am hearing; I thank the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South for citing her own constituency.
As we know, everybody has yet to meet the standards; that is the responsibility also of the clinical commissioning groups, because this is quite complicated.
Ms Dorries
We are continuing the investment in mental health services through the NHS long-term plan, as I think most people know. The £2.3 billion is with NHS England, which has a long-term plan to deliver on mental health and is moving at incredible pace. Even today, although it is not relevant to the debate, it announced the opening of gambling clinics across the UK. Community services are being rolled out across the UK so that people in mental health crises do not end up in casualty. It is an incredibly impressive roll-out of mental health services across the UK, including for eating disorders.
[Official Report, 5 March 2020, Vol. 672, c. 399WH.]
Letter of correction from the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Ms Dorries).
An error has been identified in the speech I made on Thursday 5 March 2020.
The correct statement should have been:
Ms Dorries
We are continuing the investment in mental health services through the NHS long-term plan, as I think most people know. The £2.3 billion is with NHS England, which has a long-term plan to deliver on mental health and is moving at incredible pace. Even today, although it is not relevant to the debate, it announced the opening of gambling clinics across the UK. Community services are being rolled out across England so that people in mental health crises do not end up in casualty. It is an incredibly impressive roll-out of mental health services across England, including for eating disorders.
Ms Dorries
Let me just go on to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Sir Charles Walker) about diabulimia. It is also of course the point that the right hon. Member for Knowsley raised repeatedly. We are absolutely committed to ensuring that people with diabulimia receive the treatment that they need. That is why NHS England announced in February 2019 the piloting of services. The services are being piloted on the south coast and in London, and NHS England will evaluate and monitor the pilots and take the learning from them. I will raise what the results show, if the results are through yet from the pilots, and what learning there has been and how it will apply across the UK.
[Official Report, 5 March 2020, Vol. 672, c. 401WH.]
Letter of correction from the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Ms Dorries).
An error has been identified in the speech I made on Thursday 5 March 2020.
The correct statement should have been:
Ms Dorries
Let me just go on to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Sir Charles Walker) about diabulimia. It is also of course the point that the right hon. Member for Knowsley raised repeatedly. We are absolutely committed to ensuring that people with diabulimia receive the treatment that they need. That is why NHS England announced in February 2019 the piloting of services. The services are being piloted on the south coast and in London, and NHS England will evaluate and monitor the pilots and take the learning from them. I will raise what the results show, if the results are through yet from the pilots, and what learning there has been and how it will apply across England.
Environment Bill (Seventh sitting)
Thursday 19th March 2020
(4 years, 8 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Environment Act 2021 View all Environment Act 2021 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 19 March 2020 - (19 Mar 2020)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Rebecca Pow)
I beg to move,
That, notwithstanding the Committee’s order of 10 March, the Committee, at the conclusion of proceedings at the sitting starting at 11.30 am on 19 March, do adjourn to a time and date to be fixed by the Chair.
Following cross-party discussions and in the light of recent events, it is appropriate that proceedings in Committee be postponed.
I thank all Members on both sides of the Committee—those here, and those not here today—for the wonderfully positive way in which they have approached their scrutiny of the Bill. The Committee knows that the Bill is landmark legislation, so we take it very seriously. I very much look forward to our resumption at an appropriate point. The motion provides for the Committee to adjourn until a later date, and it is right that we take such action in the light of what is happening nationally.
Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab)
On behalf of Her Majesty’s Opposition, let me say that we appreciate the constructive way in which this has been handled. I thank the Clerks and staff. We look forward to resuming, because we have a lot of amendments to discuss, but I thank everyone for managing to smooth this out so swiftly. Thank you for your chairmanship, Mr Evans.
Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)
I echo the hon. Member’s comments. I am not aware of any discussion held between our Whips, but I am sure that one did happen. While I am extremely disappointed, as we all must be, that the Committee cannot continue at this point, I look forward to its resumption in the near future, once we have got through this terrible time.
The Chair
I know.
Question put and agreed to.
Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned.—(Leo Docherty.)
Written Statements
(4 years, 8 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Electoral Events: Postponement
(4 years, 8 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Chloe Smith)
On Friday 13 March, the Prime Minister announced that the scheduled elections in May this year would be postponed by 12 months. The decision to postpone was taken following advice from the Government’s medical experts in relation to the response to the covid-19 virus. Additional risks include to polling station safety, the possible demands on local authority electoral staff to support other key services, and the impracticality or potential impossibility of campaigning activity.
We will shortly be bringing forward measures within the Coronavirus Bill to postpone the scheduled local and mayoral elections due to take place in England and the scheduled police and crime commissioner elections due to take place in England and Wales on 7 May this year until the next ordinary day of election on 6 May 2021. Provisions will also be made to enable the postponement of other electoral events over the course of the year (such as by-elections) and to make necessary consequential amendments associated with the postponement of polls which may, for example, include measures relating to incumbent office holders, the nomination of candidates and election expenses. This includes the particular circumstances of new unitary councils in Buckinghamshire and Northamptonshire to ensure the new Buckinghamshire council goes live on 1 April 2020 and that the shadow unitary councils in Northamptonshire are established in May 2020. We understand the Warwick council tax referendum (and the proposed above-threshold tax increase) is not now taking place.
Where the May 2020 scheduled elections have been postponed, the term of current elected representatives will be extended to May 2021. For those elected in 2021 as a result of the postponement their term of office will be three years ending in 2024 rather than four years.
For recall petitions, the timing of a recall poll is prescribed in legislation and any alteration to enable postponement will require the measures being brought forward. The timing of parliamentary by-elections are within the discretion of the political parties and Speaker and do not require a legislative remedy for postponement.
The Bill will be introduced in Parliament today, however we recognise that there will be a small number of polls between now and the date of Royal Assent which will not be covered by these provisions. We appreciate that this presents difficult and challenging circumstances for returning officers and others running polls, who are rightly statutorily independent and responsible for delivering polls. Running a poll in present times is likely to come with significant concerns about the wellbeing of those involved, which may be unfair to both staff and the public. As such it would be both reasonable and consistent with the national position to suspend any poll scheduled within this period, including those due to take place today, Thursday 19 March.
The Government will give their full support to returning officers and others running polls who make the decision to suspend their polls. We have consulted with the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), which has assured me that prosecution in these circumstances is highly unlikely.
Ensuring the health and safety of the public is our No.1 priority and I am grateful for the support of the electoral community in helping this effort. We appreciate all of the hard work of returning officers and others during these difficult and challenging circumstances.
[HCWS174]
European (Withdrawal) Act and Common Frameworks
(4 years, 8 months ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office (Michael Gove)
I am today laying before Parliament a report, “The European Union (Withdrawal) Act and Common Frameworks: 26 September 2019 to 25 December 2019”. I am laying this report because it is a legal requirement under the EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018 for quarterly reports to be made to Parliament on the progress of the work to develop common frameworks. The report is available on gov.uk and details the progress made between the UK Government and devolved Administrations regarding the development of common frameworks. This report details progress made during the sixth three-month reporting period, and sets out that no “freezing” regulations have been brought forward under section 12 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act. A copy of the “The European Union (Withdrawal) Act and Common Frameworks: 26 September 2019 to 25 December 2019” report has been placed in the Libraries of both Houses. The publication of the report reflects the Government’s continued commitment to transparency.
[HCWS171]
Armed Forces Reservists: Covid-19
(4 years, 8 months ago)
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (James Heappey)
A new order has been made under section 56(1 B) of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 to enable reservists to be called into permanent service to support HM Forces in connection to the UK’s response to the outbreak of the covid-19 coronavirus.
Defence is committed to assisting HMG by ensuring that there are effective and proportionate contingency plans in place to mitigate the potential impacts that the covid-19 coronavirus outbreak might have on the welfare, health and security of UK citizens and economic stability of the UK. Defence is taking prudent steps to ensure that we can provide support to other Government Departments when requested.
As part of this support, reserve forces will be on standby to deliver a range of defence outputs such as (but not limited to): the reinforcement of regular sub-units, liaison officer roles and the provision of specialist skills. A particularly important role may be the planned reinforcement of regional points of command, to enable their 24/7 operation and resilience. We would also expect reserves to be drawn upon to support the implementation of contingency plans developed by other Government Departments.
The order shall take effect from the day on which it is made and shall cease to have effect 12 months from the date on which it is made.
[HCWS170]
HM Government Transparency Report: Disruptive Powers 2018-19
(4 years, 8 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Priti Patel)
I have today laid before the House the fourth iteration of the Government transparency report on the use of disruptive powers (CP 212). Copies of the report will be made available in the Vote Office and online on gov.uk.
This Government remain committed to increasing the transparency of the work of our security and intelligence and law enforcement agencies, and this next iteration of the transparency report is a key part of that commitment.
Publishing this report ensures that the public are able to access, in one place, a guide to the range of powers used to combat threats to the security of the United Kingdom, the extent of their use and the safeguards and oversight in place to ensure they are used properly.
[HCWS172]
Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation Report: Operation in 2018 of the Terrorism Acts
(4 years, 8 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Priti Patel)
Jonathan Hall QC, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, has prepared a report on the operation in 2018 of the Terrorism Acts.
In accordance with section 36(5) of the Terrorism Act 2006, I am today laying this report before the House and copies will be available in the Vote Office. It will also be published on gov.uk.
I am grateful to Mr Hall for his report. I will carefully consider its contents and the recommendations he makes and will respond formally in due course.
[HCWS173]
House of Lords
Lord Speaker’s Statement
The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
My Lords, I would like to make a short personal statement. This is the second major public health crisis I have experienced. The AIDS crisis of 1986 and 1987, when I was Health Secretary, was the first. It presented a particular set of circumstances but was fought on the basis of expert medical advice from the public health experts at the Department of Health. I followed the advice that I was given—in the face of some opposition, I might say—and we had more success than many other nations in preventing deaths. We can and should learn valuable lessons from the past.
My strong view from my own experience is that the best course to take in the present crisis is to follow the clear direction of Public Health England, which has issued specific advice about social distancing for those over 70 and those with specific underlying health conditions. This is not only for their own good—I should say “our” own good—but for the benefit of those in our National Health Service, who are working so incredibly hard in the current circumstances. Perhaps I could say softly that some of us are not just over 70 but over 80.
So reluctantly I will withdraw from the House for the time being, but thanks to modern technology I will still be in close contact with my office, deciding Private Notice Questions and continuing my duties as Lord Speaker. In effect, I will be doing what thousands of people are now doing: working from home. My Woolsack duties will be carried out by some of my excellent deputies, who will be further strengthened in numbers.
As to the situation more generally, my advice remains that no one should consider it their duty to be here in present circumstances. As parliamentarians, we have a duty to show leadership and heed the clear advice of the public health experts. I ask that everyone continues to reflect on their own situation in the light of that advice, for their own good and the broader public interest. Lastly, I personally thank everyone for their co-operation over the last weeks.
County Lines Drug Trafficking
(4 years, 8 months ago)
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Baroness Kennedy of Cradley
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to deal with county lines drug trafficking.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, county lines has a devastating impact on our children and communities, and this Government are determined to crack down on these criminal gangs. We are providing £25 million of targeted investment this financial year and next to boost law enforcement efforts. This builds on previous activity, including establishing the National County Lines Coordination Centre, which launched in 2018 and has co-ordinated activity resulting in over 2,500 arrests and 3,000 people safeguarded.
Baroness Kennedy of Cradley (Lab)
My Lords, I first thank the Lord Speaker for his wise words and wish him and all noble Lords well.
With regard to the Question, the largest rise in child victims of modern slavery and human trafficking reported by the NCA is due to county lines crimes. However, the Modern Slavery Act 2015, which was not passed with this type of crime in mind, is being used by prosecutors to try to tackle this growing problem. Given the disturbing rise in this life-changing crime, will the Home Office prioritise an investigation into the use of the Modern Slavery Act in relation to county lines cases to determine where swift improvements can be made?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I certainly take the noble Baroness’s comments on board. The Government constantly review legislation to ensure that it is working effectively, but I shall certainly look into the point that she makes. We of course want the legislation to work in the best and most effective way.
Lord Woolley of Woodford (CB)
Does the Minister agree that many of those caught up in county lines drug trafficking are extremely vulnerable children and teenagers, and furthermore, that our response should and must be cross-governmental? We need to have a grown-up conversation about drugs policy. The present policy—often described as a “war on drugs”—seems only to embolden gangs and cause misery in many communities. At the other end of this joined-up thinking, particularly to stop the disproportionality of black children being excluded from schools, must be an unprecedented recruitment drive of black male teachers.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I most certainly agree with the noble Lord about this whole thing being driven by the drugs markets. The types of people who are most predominantly targeted and engaged in this are indeed vulnerable teenagers, and in fact younger. I totally agree that a multiagency approach is entirely needed, which is what the National County Lines Coordination Centre aims to do. It is a multiagency team of experts from the NCA, the police and regional crime units. I also take his point about the stopping of black people. People should be stopped on an intelligence- led basis, not because of the colour of their skin.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)
Does the Minister agree that the work of the West Midlands Police and West Mercia Police in Operation Ballet, led by Detective Inspector Julie Woods, has been exemplary? It led to convictions at the Worcester Crown Court last Friday of 13 individuals who had operated a county lines scam starting in London, going to Birmingham New Street station, and then spreading out, with couriers and local people in the towns of Herefordshire and Worcestershire; these towns are not normally associated with drug trafficking, but, in the present circumstances, seem to be hotbeds of this terrible anti-social activity.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Lord makes exactly the right point: towns and counties that one would usually not expect to be associated with such criminal activity in fact are. I pay tribute to Julie Woods for the convictions secured at Worcester Crown Court. For every one person convicted, an awful lot of young people are safeguarded from this terrible scourge.
Lord Patel of Bradford (Non-Afl)
My Lords, what assessment have the Government made of the links between young people being drawn into county lines and increasing child poverty, the number of children in care and the number of young people being excluded from schools? Also, what are the Government doing to divert those who have been caught from a lifelong career of criminality?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, like all these things, the causes are multifactorial. The symptoms are also many and varied. It might not be drugs or county lines that a young person gets into; it might be other things as well. What was the second part of the noble Lord’s question?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
Noble Lords have previously brought up in this House that the young people who are drawn into this sort of activity are not themselves criminals; they are victims of other people’s exploitation. It is very important to keep that in mind when we think about how we deal with these children and divert them into mainstream life and out of a life of crime.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
My Lords, following the Government’s decision to fund an increase in the number of police officers by some 20,000, the Home Secretary told police chiefs that she now expected them to deliver a return on that funding in the form of a reduction in crime. Now that the Home Secretary has admitted through that statement that the total number of police officers available does have an impact on the level of crime—contrary to what the Government used to maintain while they were busily reducing the number of police officers over the last decade—will the Government now agree that one reason, though not the only reason, for the rate and level of expansion of child criminal exploitation, or county lines, across the country has been the reduction in the number of police officers and the resultant increasingly stretched police forces across the country over the last 10 years?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, as I said earlier, I think these issues are multifactorial. One thing that the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, would say if he were here is that it is driven by the drugs market, but the drugs market is not the only factor. It is also fair to say that at some point demands on the police, and crime, became more complex, and therefore it was the right decision to take to promote the move towards having more police officers on our streets to fight crime.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
My Lords, sometimes in the past the police have caught a young criminal, a young gang member who has been involved in criminal activity, and, instead of charging or even rehabilitating them, they have actually turned them around and sent them back into the gang as a child police spy. Is that still happening? If it is, how many children are involved?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Baroness will know from previous answers I have given that the number is estimated to be fewer than 10; she will recall the report that looked into that. It is something that is used only very sparingly, and its ultimate aim is to drive down crime and bring to justice those people who are exploiting children.
Yemen
(4 years, 8 months ago)
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The Lord Bishop of St Albans
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to tackle the humanitarian situation in Yemen.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Department for International Development (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, the humanitarian situation in Yemen remains the worst in the world. Some 80% of the population require humanitarian assistance. Alongside our diplomatic efforts to end the conflict, we have provided over £200 million in aid this current financial year. This has met the immediate food needs of more than 1 million Yemenis each month during the year. However, we are clear that the only way to address the humanitarian crisis is through a political settlement.
The Lord Bishop of St Albans
I thank the Minister for his reply and for the hard work that I know he and his colleagues are putting into this situation. However, Yemen is now also suffering terrible outbreaks of cholera and diphtheria, and now Covid-19 has come along as well. So the airports have been closed. What are Her Majesty’s Government able to do to ensure that food supplies, aid and medicines are still actually getting into the country and getting where they are needed?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The right reverend Prelate raises an important point. Humanitarian assistance continues to operate through the two southern ports, Hodeidah and Saleef, which remain open. However, there are challenges in the distribution of humanitarian relief. The right reverend Prelate is right to raise the issues of various contagious diseases; 900,000 cases of cholera have been reported this year alone. As far as the Covid crisis is concerned, currently no fatalities from the crisis are shown and the number of cases is very low—but that is reflective of the challenge on the ground rather than there being a very small number of cases. We are operating under very difficult circumstances, and because of the situation around Covid there has also been a drawdown of essential staff, including from the UN, in Yemen itself.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, yesterday’s Guardian published a horrific report about the targeting of hospitals and doctors during the conflict in recent times by all sides in the conflict. I understand that that report may even form the basis of evidence-gathering for future war-crimes positions. Can the Minister tell us a little more about how we are securing evidence, and how we are challenging both the coalition and the Houthis to stop these crimes against humanity?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, the noble Lord is right to raise that question, but he will also be aware of the desperate situation on the ground. For example, there has been a 70% increase in violence against women since the conflict began, and the issue of documenting such crimes, let alone bringing the perpetrators to justice, is going to be a very tall order. Nevertheless we continue to support the efforts of the UN, including those of the special envoy Martin Griffiths, in this respect. I assure the noble Lord that wherever we have influence, including with those involved directly in the crisis such as the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, we are seeking to bring that to bear.
Baroness Sheehan (LD)
My Lords, can the Minister comment on what appear to be large underspends in DfID programmes in Yemen? I will highlight two, which are both scheduled to end at the end of this month: support for displaced people and migrants, which has a budget of £36 million and a spend to date £22.6 million, and the Yemen multisector humanitarian response programme, which has a budget of £92 million and a spend of just under £80 million. What are the reasons behind this? Can the Minister give the House some indication as to what degree it is our friends and allies—I use those words advisedly—in the Saudi-led coalition who are raising obstacles to aid distribution?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, as the noble Baroness may well be aware, the major obstacle to aid distribution is in the north of the country; current estimates suggest that 7 million people are affected in that part of Yemen, which is an all-time high. The situation has been exacerbated because that area is controlled by the Houthis. The noble Baroness will be further aware that they have sought to impose a 2% levy on all distribution of humanitarian aid. As Her Majesty’s Government—I am sure she acknowledges this—we are responsible for every penny of aid that is spent. It is important that this is done in a responsible manner. She should not judge the underspend but rather the effective delivery of aid to reach the most vulnerable that we are seeking to secure through UN agencies. The situation is desperate: 80% of the population are in need of humanitarian aid, but the main situation is exacerbated in the north.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
Can the Minister confirm the figures being given by ACLED that, so far in this terrible war, 100,000 people have been killed including 12,000 civilians, that 85,000 people have died as a result of the famine that has ensued from the war, and that approximately 130 children are dying every single day? Is this not the moment for us to appeal to the Governments of both Iran and Saudi Arabia to urge their proxies to end this war, not least in the current circumstances where people will now be dying of the coronavirus? In this situation, does the Minister really think that anyone will be collecting data on the number of fatalities from the virus?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
In answer to the noble Lord’s final question, it is extremely challenging to be able to ascertain that data, not least because of the challenges to our ability to access the most vulnerable, which I raised earlier in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan. I agree on the specific statistics. I do not have the detail in front of me, but those figures resonate with the figures we have been using at DfID. When I spoke of 80% of the population, that is 24.1 million people in Yemen who need humanitarian assistance. On calling time, yes, absolutely; we are supporting UN efforts and imploring all sides—including, indeed, those operating through proxies and those with influence, namely the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and Iran—to call time. People are suffering, people need help and it should happen now.
Lord Adonis (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister think it would help the situation in Yemen if the United Kingdom did not sell arms to Saudi Arabia?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, that question has come up before. We operate a very rigorous regime in this regard. I note, as the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, is in his place, that I have written specifically on that. There was an issue about licences being issued by the Department for International Trade. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for International Trade has responded and there is a detailed report in that regard laid in the Library of the House.
Covid-19: Helplines
(4 years, 8 months ago)
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Baroness Watkins of Tavistock
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to establish a COVID-19 specific helpline in addition to NHS 111; and whether any such helpline could be staffed by retired medical and nursing professionals.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)
My Lords, as part of its coronavirus response, NHS 111 has already trained an additional 1,000 call-handlers. NHS England has been clear that investment will increase as demand continues to rise. As part of the health system’s wider response to the coronavirus, the GMC, the NMC and other professional regulators have written to professionals who have left their registers within the past three years to ask them to return to support the coronavirus response.
Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)
My Lords, I first acknowledge the Lord Speaker’s demonstrable leadership in deciding to work from home. We need to remember that we are televised and we need to model the behaviour we are asking of the rest of the country. I thank the Minister for his response, but draw his attention to the fact that there are many retired professional health workers who wish to contribute to the NHS and social care needs of our population in all four countries of the UK but who have their own health concerns. Many, like myself, are fit enough to return to clinical practice and are of course willing to do so. However, utilising others by quickly teaching them a specific algorithm for the Covid-19 virus could relieve anxiety and provide advice to our population and, in particular, relieve NHS 111 to deal with other concerns. We are very worried that, even in the short term, people with perhaps severe problems who should be ringing 999, but do not know that until they have rung 111, will have to wait a disproportionately long time. I wonder whether we could see how quickly we could get a specific line using the expertise of the people I referred to.
Lord Bethell
The noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, reflects the feeling of all the House in her comments on the Lord Speaker, and I entirely endorse her comment that we must all respect the guidance and advice given to us by the Government. I pay tribute to the Lord Speaker for his comments on that subject.
In terms of 111, she is entirely right that the NHS is under acute pressure, which is particularly felt on the front line in the interaction with concerned people who are understandably phoning 111. The 111 system is recruiting a large number of new handlers. In addition, we have put a letter through the GMC, NMC and other professional bodies and there will be a registration page on the front page of those bodies’ websites—it will be going up very shortly, either tomorrow or very soon afterwards, I believe—for recently retired professionals to register their interest in rejoining their local NHS health authorities in some way. Those applications will then be passed on to the local authorities and triaged, and the applicants will be allocated suitable responsibilities. I pay tribute to all those who are thinking of returning or have returned to active service, often putting themselves in danger and taking risks in the service of the NHS to look after patients. The skills of the recently retired may range from those who are younger and active and can be on the wards through to older people who may have desk-based tasks, but it is up to the local authorities to decide where best they can conduct their services.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
My Lords, will my noble friend join me in congratulating the Lord Speaker on the leadership he has given? I declare my interest, as in the register: I work with the Dispensing Doctors’ Association. Can my noble friend address the question of professional indemnity for those wishing to return to practise as recently retired nurses, doctors or other medical professionals? Can he also address the question that I have written to him about regarding the severe shortage on the front line of PPE, which is apparently in warehouses? It really needs to get to the front line.
Lord Bethell
The question of indemnity insurance is addressed in detail in the coronavirus emergency Bill. We are fully aware of the concerns of anyone returning to work, and indeed anyone who might have indemnity insurance in one area of practice but who will be asked to take on exceptional duties required as part of this emergency—the surgeon, for instance, who takes on respiratory support duties. Those indemnities will be thorough and will cover all work. In terms of the warehouses for PPE, it is incredibly important that there is load allocation according to the need for the PPE, not necessarily the demands of local authorities. There is therefore an active allocation of PPE to those areas that have the highest incidence of the virus. That is being managed centrally in a thoughtful and professional manner.
Lord Alderdice (LD)
My Lords, I direct the House to my medical and other interests in the register. I have no doubt that NHS 111 and other helpline medical professionals and health professionals will give the best advice. But Professor John Ioannidis at Stanford University has pointed out that we are making major changes in the way we run society, on necessarily limited evidence for what happens with this virus. Can those working on NHS 111 and any other advice lines also take epidemiological data on the length of time and types of symptoms and, particularly, geographical spread, and feed that data back to research institutes inside and outside the NHS, so that we can get the best handle possible, as soon as possible, on how this virus operates?
Lord Bethell
The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, is entirely right: one of the features of this virus is its extremely unpredictable nature. The way in which it reacts in different people at different times is extraordinarily diverse. Some people appear to be completely knocked out by it; some have the lightest possible symptoms. There seems to be an alignment with age. We are all enormously thankful that the young and very young seem to be blessed by having the light symptoms. We are all extremely concerned about the old, but it is not even as simple or as linear as that. A huge investment is being put into understanding the virus better. I am pleased to report to the Chamber that international co-operation on that is extensive and positive, and that British researchers are at the leading edge of pulling together that data.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
My Lords, this is a question on co-ordination. Yesterday, I saw the script that 111 is using right now; it was perfectly intelligible and sensible. However, it was out of step with what was on Public Health England’s website. I am sure that is a timing issue but it is rather important, because it will increase anxiety. Moreover, the digital exclusion of the elderly and vulnerable is a really serious problem because suggesting to people that they should go online in the first instance is entirely inappropriate for people who can manage a phone, but that is about it. Many of us are probably related to people in that position, so having plans to deal with that—as suggested by the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins—is very important.
Lord Bethell
The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, is right that the Government have moved incredibly quickly, particularly in the last two weeks. The pace of the virus has been faster than initially expected. The response by some of our international partners has in part conditioned our response, and we are working extremely hard to ensure that all parts of the machine keep up with each other. There will inevitably be occasional glitches, but I pay tribute to the NHS, Public Health England and, in fact, the entire Whitehall machine for moving incredibly quickly and, under the circumstances, demonstrating a relatively high level of consistency in the advice as policy has changed.
Covid-19: Vaccine
(4 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord McNicol of West Kilbride
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that UK production facilities are able to develop and produce sufficient quantities of any vaccine for COVID-19.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)
My Lords, vaccine development is moving very rapidly but is still at a very early stage. The Government are working closely with industry to assess UK manufacturing capability for a range of potential new vaccines. The type of capacity and specific route needed to take this further will be determined by the technology used to produce the vaccines and the types of vaccines produced.
Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)
I thank the Minister for that Answer. The Question is about not just the production of vaccines but the production facilities to mass-produce them. Understandably, the priority now must be supporting those infected and the front-line staff with the production of ventilators. However, we should be planning for what comes next, as the Minister said, and the development of vaccines is part of that. What discussions have been had, or decisions made, between the Government and UKRI about scaling up? When we get the vaccine, that will be fine, but what about the ability to scale it up? We will need to build the factory now; normally that comes after. Can we explore a little further whether the work on scaling up is happening, as well as the development of the vaccine?
Lord Bethell
The noble Lord, Lord McNicol, is entirely right to focus on the importance of vaccines. The Government are extremely concerned that the entire public have a clear line to having confidence that they can rid themselves of the threat of the virus so that we can all get back to work and normal life. That will not be possible until we have a vaccine. If I may digress for a moment, one consideration is that, for a vaccine to work, it will have to be taken by billions; for that, it must be as safe as houses. I contrast that with the vaccine for Ebola, where the death rate was at nearly 80% and a just-about-good-enough approach could be taken. However, the coronavirus has a relatively low mortality rate and the introduction of an added risk factor into the population is something we can avoid. For those reasons, the development of a vaccine is considered to be at least a year or 18 months off. However, the noble Lord is entirely right that planning for the production of the vaccine, when it is fully developed, is front of mind for the Government.
Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford (Con)
My Lords, ever since John Snow discovered the link between the famous London water pump and the cholera outbreak in 1854, UK scientists and innovators have led global efforts to tackle infectious diseases. We should be very proud of that. However, many UK biotechs and healthtechs which are leading the race to fight Covid-19 are loss-leading and will struggle to raise risk capital in the current climate to maintain operations. One very simple intervention the Treasury could make would be to pay R&D tax credits in advance. This would be matched very well to each individual company and could be based simply on their most recent claims. Will the Minister look into this as a matter of urgency?
Lord Bethell
My noble friend has an important and exciting idea, and I am grateful to her for communicating it to me in advance of today’s Question. I have already taken the idea to Treasury colleagues. I have not had a formal response, but the idea supports a pressing and important need in the essential life sciences sector and seems to have strong merit. I hope it will go far.
Lord Scriven (LD)
My Lords, the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, was very clear: it is not about the production of a vaccine but the facilities to manufacture that vaccine at scale. At the moment, the Government have made £46 million available for research into the vaccine. What money and planning are going into the facilities so that, once a vaccine has been made, it can be produced at scale in the UK?
Lord Bethell
The focus on the actual production of the vaccine is a matter of sequencing. We are moving incredibly quickly in all areas, but the focus at the moment, I think understandably, is on trying to get a product developed. In that respect, I bear testimony to the Oxford Vaccine Group and Jenner Institute at Oxford University, which have been shortlisted for the CEPI group of seven for potential vaccine development. This is an incredibly important development and shows the strength of Britain’s contribution to the development of vaccines.
Arrangement of Business
The Earl of Courtown (Con)
My Lords, as with the practice we followed yesterday, there will be a short adjournment before the Statement to allow noble Lords to maintain social distancing as they leave and enter the Chamber. I suggest that we adjourn during pleasure for five minutes until 11.44 am.
Educational Settings
(4 years, 8 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education and Department for International Trade (Baroness Berridge) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made yesterday in the other place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education. The Statement is as follows:
“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement regarding changes to the operations of educational settings as a result of the coronavirus pandemic. We are facing increasingly difficult challenges, and once again I express my extraordinary gratitude to staff in all our schools, colleges, nurseries and universities who are doing so much.
I know that the situation has become increasingly challenging. I said before that if the science and the advice changed, such that keeping schools open would no longer be in the best interests of children and teachers, we would act. We are now at that stage.
The spike of the virus is increasing at a faster pace than anticipated, and it is crucial that we continue to consider the right measures to arrest this increase and relieve pressure on the health system. The public health benefits of schools remaining open as normal are shifting. It is also clear that schools are finding it increasingly difficult to continue as normal, as illness and self-isolation impact on staffing levels and pupil attendance. I want to provide parents, students and staff with the certainty they need.
After schools shut their gates on Friday afternoon—tomorrow—they will remain closed until further notice. That will be for all children except those of key workers and the children who are most vulnerable. The scientific advice shows that these settings are safe for this small number of children to continue attending, but asking others to stay away will help us to slow the spread of this virus. Examples of key workers include NHS staff, police and delivery drivers, who need to be able to go to work. Vulnerable children include those who have a social worker and those with education, health and care plans. Looking after these children will enable schools to support the country through this incredibly difficult and extremely challenging time. We are expecting early years providers, sixth forms and further education colleges to do the same. We are working with Her Majesty’s Treasury on the financial support that will be required. I am also asking that independent schools and boarding schools follow the same approach.
We will give schools the flexibility to provide meals or vouchers to children eligible for free school meals. Some schools are already doing this, and we will make sure that those costs are reimbursed. As soon as possible, we will put in place a national voucher system for every child who is eligible for free school meals. I know that all this will not be easy. I am asking nurseries, schools and colleges to be at the forefront of our national response to this crisis.
Given the unprecedented asks that we are making of all those working in educational settings at this time, I recognise that we are asking so much of them. We will be asking them to provide for these settings to be open to children of key workers and to vulnerable children during the Easter holidays as well.
I recognise that what schools will be doing in these circumstances will look very different from the normal state of affairs, and we will ensure that leaders have the flexibility that they need to face this challenge. To allow schools and other settings to focus on this new operational model and the support they can give to these young people, we are removing various duties. Ofsted has ceased all routine inspections of early years, schools, colleges and children’s social care services. I can confirm that we will not go ahead with assessments or exams, and that we will not be publishing performance tables for this academic year. We will work with the sector and Ofqual to ensure that children get the qualifications that they need.
My department is working closely with local authorities, representatives of early years, schools and headteachers, regional school commissioners and bodies such as Ofsted and Ofqual on how to deliver this change as effectively as possible. We will do whatever is necessary to support local authorities, schools and teachers through the weeks and months ahead.
I know that many universities and other higher education institutions are already taking necessary steps to keep their staff and students safe and, where possible, keep providing education. I am confident that vice-chancellors are making the right decisions and my department continues to support them in doing so.
This is a testing time for the whole nation, but by asking schools and other settings to look after the children of key workers and the most vulnerable, we will be directly saving people’s lives. Whether you are a parent or a teacher, I want you to know that your well-being and that of your children is the absolute priority for me and my department. We are completely committed to ensuring that every child receives the best education possible, and we will be working with the BBC and others to provide resources for children to access at home.
I am deeply grateful for the civic spirit and selfless dedication that has been, and continues to be, shown by teachers and other school workers every single day. I am committed to giving my full support throughout every stage of this crisis to those who are doing so much for all of us. I know that our teachers and those working in education have the full support of the House and that honourable Members will do what they can to support schools and other providers in their constituencies through this period of great change. I wish to thank them in advance for all the work that they will do. I would also like to take the opportunity to thank the party opposite, particularly the honourable Member for Ashton-under-Lyne, for their co-operation, advice and thoughts at this time.
Our headteachers and teachers are central to the country’s response to the current crisis, and I am reassured by their readiness to step up and take the lead in supporting families through this most incredibly difficult time. All of those who work in our schools, colleges and universities rightly take their place next to our NHS staff and other key workers as central to our efforts as a country in battling this virus, and I want to thank them from the bottom of my heart for all of their support and all they do. I commend this Statement to the House.”
Lord Watson of Invergowrie
My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. We support the decision to close schools, which was clearly made on safety grounds. I have a list of questions for the Minister, and I ask her to write to me on any that she feels unable to answer today.
What steps are the Government taking to facilitate co-operation between nurseries, schools and childcare providers and local communities? In particular, can she offer clarification on childminders, who are not mentioned in the Statement but play a significant role in out-of-school care? Does the Minister anticipate that education providers will need to pool resources, including staff and premises, in order to care for vulnerable children and the children of key workers? This raises safeguarding considerations because usually DBS checks apply to specific schools and premises, and it may not be possible for people simply to transfer to another establishment. What planning have the Government done in that regard?
What provision will be available for what would have been the Easter holiday period? The Minister will be aware that working parents usually rely on recreational groups, clubs and camps, which will of course not be operating, as well as on grandparents and relatives, contact with whom is being discouraged. The Statement mentions that schools will have the flexibility to provide meals or vouchers to children eligible for free school meals, but as noble Lords will be aware free school meals are a passport to benefits. Given that more children are likely to become eligible for them in coming weeks as the economic impact of this pandemic claims jobs and wages, can the Minister give an assurance that these newly eligible children will also be entitled to the voucher system? I am sure she will acknowledge that we cannot afford a lead-in time for such changes.
We understand that the list of key workers will be issued tomorrow. The Statement mentioned NHS staff, but that term encompasses not merely doctors, nurses and paramedics. Hospitals need countless other categories of staff to function effectively, so I hope the Minister will confirm that they will be regarded as key because that is precisely what they are. There must surely be an absolute guarantee that we can look after the children of parents needed to carry out essential work at this time, including food distribution workers, police, fire and rescue staff and those who are working to produce medical equipment, not least those in industries that have been repurposed to produce essential ventilators. Although she will not want to list the categories of staff at this point, can she clarify whether the childcare being provided in schools will apply to children where only one parent is a key worker, or will it require both to be so categorised?
A major concern to thousands of students and their parents is the abandonment of GCSE and A-level exams. The Statement says that the DfE will work with the sector and Ofqual to ensure that children get the qualifications they need. On Radio 4 this morning, the Secretary of State provided little elaboration on those words, although he seemed to suggest that grades would be awarded based on classwork, but will that be all? I have to say that Education Ministers over the past decade have demonstrated something of an aversion to teacher assessments, which suggests that there might well be an additional measurement, perhaps some form of online assessment. I hope that the Minister will rule that out, as it would impact disproportionately on disadvantaged students, whose home environment, not least the availability of suitable IT, could leave them in some difficulty. Awarding grades may be suitable for those who are doing well, but what about those on the margins? The difference between a 4 and a 5 grade at GCSE can be crucial, and of course all sorts of options are closed to young people who do not have passes in English and maths. What comfort can the Minister offer to those students and their families?
Predicted grades may be sufficient to enable young people to go up to university later this year, but what of those who are already there who will be unable to sit their finals? Most of the restrictions announced in the Statement do not apply to universities, but I hope that the government are not willing to leave all aspects of entry to and graduation from universities in these unprecedented times in the hands of individual institutions. That would produce a patchwork system, not a level playing field, which surely must be avoided.
Never before, not even in time of war, have all schools been closed. These are extraordinary times, and naturally, parents and carers are very concerned. I put on record our thanks to and support for all those working in our education and children’s services through the crisis. They, along with parents and learners of all ages, now seek both reassurance and guidance from the Government.
Lord Addington (LD)
My Lords, I associate myself with the last few comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Watson. This is an unprecedented time and an unprecedented challenge. However, we still need a bit more clarification. If we are going to hear later on today about who are the key workers and the categories, can the Minister give us more of a hint about which groups they will go into? Delivery drivers would probably not have been regarded as key workers before this occasion. Where exactly will this go? If a little more guidance could be provided today on the categories of people, if not the exact job descriptions, that would help the situation.
Then we come on to the list of those who will be going to school. I and the Minister have had, shall we say, a bit of cut and thrust already on education, health and care plans, although she has not been in post that long. This is probably an occasion where, to be perfectly honest, the health and care part of that plan is probably more important. Are all people with the plans to be treated in exactly the same way? When I listened to the Commons yesterday, people in special schools was a particularly popular topic of discussion. Will all special schools with a residential capacity automatically be gathered in? Is there any categorisation within them, and so on? The plan seems nice and comprehensive, but it covers a great deal of things. For once, I do not think that dyslexics are a special case here. My group is not the highest priority. Can we make sure that we look at this so that we get practical solutions? It might be a little bit too soon to do this, but then again it has to start functioning by Monday. What will happen there?
The Government seem to have gone to the BBC, saying “Give us a hand”. Have not times changed a wee bit? However, it has a huge resource available to it via iPlayer to enable large numbers of students to continue their courses and study. Will the Government work with the BBC to get particular packages together to help people? For instance, I think you can probably do it at the moment off the top of your head with history programmes for history and English language, and there will be other subjects which I do not bother looking at, so I do not know about them. What are the Government doing there? Also, surely the other public service broadcasters should take this up as well. Is there a co-ordinated approach coming so you have this available? A large amount of support is actually almost at our fingertips here. How are we going to use it? That would be valuable to know.
On free school meals, once again, as the noble Lord, Lord Watson, said, how will this work? The voucher system, again, has to be functioning by Monday. What is happening there, and when will the general public know what is happening? They have to know. It is no good us finding out and then finding out in a week or two. They have to find out what is going on by Monday. Could we have a bit more guidance on that?
Nobody wanted to do this, but if the Government feel that this is the correct thing and they have the advice, we can only go with them. However, we need to know how it will work. Clichés come to mind, but the one about the road to hell being paved with good intentions is nagging at the back of my head here.
Baroness Berridge
My Lords, I am grateful for the support from both the noble Lords. This action has been taken primarily to protect the public from the spread of this disease. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Watson, for accepting that some of his questions I will have to answer by letter. Registered childminders are covered by our request, and during the Easter holidays, school leaders—including those from independent schools —and local authorities will work collaboratively on the ground to deliver this. That is not just an expectation; we know it will happen. We expect that during the holidays they will be pooling so that staff can get a break as well, because the provision for key workers and this vulnerable group of children is significantly less than for a normal pupil cohort.
Eligibility for free school meals was dealt with directly by the Secretary of State yesterday afternoon, and included those who have or will become eligible for free school meals. I had to read out yesterday’s Statement verbatim, but the voucher system is sorted out and schools will be reimbursed. Certain schools have already been purchasing supermarket vouchers and will be reimbursed for those costs, while others are continuing to provide food. We are leaving to the discretion of head teachers which they choose to do.
Today, the Cabinet Office will issue a list of what are key workers in relation to school attendance. Regarding disadvantage to students, I say that the system for awarding examination grades will be fair to all. A proper and fair qualification will be awarded. We will know tomorrow what it will look like, as a lot of consultation and engagement was needed with Ofqual, universities and head teachers, about how to handle fairly and justly a situation that is unprecedented, trying to honour, respect and award properly the work that these students and young people have been putting in. It is taking some time to work out.
Every child with an EHCP is covered in the definition of a vulnerable child. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, referred to this. There will be guidance regarding atypical settings, including the special schools that are residential. There are issues around keeping children in those environments, and around what household isolation means when you are in a boarding school, because we are aware that there will still be young people in those boarding houses, particularly looked-after children within that education system. The guidance will, I hope, be the practical solution that the noble Lord was talking about, and will think through all the detailed implications of the decisions.
This is a time of national unity. Everyone is being engaged, including of course the BBC, which, along with other providers, will use its iPlayer system to broadcast educational material, enabling children to still learn while they are at home. Guidance will be going out to teachers about remote teaching. Some have a lot of experience of this and some do not. We are trying to give them the best help that we can. At a time when we are prioritising the curtailment of this disease—trying to stop its spread—it is important that we all work together. We are seeing that on the ground between different schools and with local authority staff, particularly in adult and child social care, who are working above and beyond the call of duty at the moment.
Baroness Brown of Cambridge (CB)
My Lords, in the light of these Covid-19 emergency measures, which are entirely understandable, what help will the Government provide to our excellent universities, which, as we heard earlier, are contributing significantly to our understanding of this emergency and to its solution? We need to recognise that those universities now face the triple whammy of uncertainty over A-levels and admissions for the autumn, and therefore fees from UK students, the loss of overseas student fees and other income—for example, from residencies—and, in the light of the falls in stock markets internationally, a potential emergency revaluation of the USS pension scheme.
Baroness Berridge
Universities are separate to this Statement. It is down to the discretion of vice-chancellors following the Public Health England guidance, but we are working with universities and the Treasury in relation to the financial implications. The Secretary of State mentioned particularly the anticipated drop in international students later on in the year, so we are working closely with them and anticipate that on a case- by-case basis they will keep some of their accommodation occupied along with some of their boarding houses. Looked-after children, estranged students and students who are care leavers will potentially need to stay on campus. We are dealing with those issues, and I will write with any further detail to the noble Baroness.
Baroness Warsi (Con)
My Lords, following on directly from that question, is there any clarity at this stage about predicted grades and university entrance for those currently doing A-levels or equivalent qualifications? As my noble friend will be aware, many schools and colleges predict grades that end up being higher than the actual grades received by students. Universities such as mine—I declare an interest as the pro-vice-chancellor of a university—will often take on children who have not attained the grades that they were predicted, so a large amount of our intake and that of other universities lower down the league tables, if you can say “down”, is during clearing. Has any consideration therefore been given to those universities that will be oversubscribed based on predicted grades, if that is what the requirement will be, and those that will clearly be undersubscribed? What financial packages will be put in place to ensure that we do not lose any university during this time?
Baroness Berridge
The noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, raises some of the detailed issues that arise in this unprecedented situation. These matters are being taken into account. Whenever you think about the situation, another implication arises. All that she says will be noted and taken back. As I say, though, the assessment of grades for examinations is something that will be out, I believe, tomorrow.
Baroness Blackstone (Ind Lab)
My Lords, I have to say that in the 33 years I have sat in this House this is by far the worst education Statement that I have ever listened to. It is wholly inadequate. As the National Association of Head Teachers has said, far more questions arise from it than answers. Before a Statement of this sort is produced, the work should have been done. The Department for Education and the Government have had plenty of time; they have been considering this issue for some weeks yet have come up with something that leaves parents, teachers and pupils in disarray.
I shall just give two examples—I would like to give many others but I must not take up too much of the House’s time. First, the Government have said that schools are going to be kept open for people in the workforce who are in key jobs, not only in the National Health Service but in many other areas. There is absolutely no clarity about how these schools will be chosen. The schools are closing tomorrow night, so what happens on Monday morning when a nurse who works in a crucial ICU does not know what to do or where to send her children? This preparation should have been done properly and it has not. How does the Minister think the system is going to work from Monday when there are so many uncertainties?
Secondly, there is the cancellation of GCSE and A-level exams. Any Minister who has been responsible for this area knows that you cannot play about with the exam system until you have done the necessary preparation so that pupils’ and teachers’ questions can be answered. We have a generation of young people now whose mental health is being jeopardised by the fact that they have not a clue what is going to happen to them regarding their university or job applications—or their college applications, if we are talking about GCSE.
Does the Government agree that it is vital that there is clarity about university entrance? Does the Minister agree that the simplest system would simply be to take the predicted grades, which are all centrally collected and every university has them for the applications they have received, and that any young person who has been made an offer at those predicted grades or below should be told within the next fortnight that their place will be guaranteed? If not, they will be left in extreme uncertainty and misery.
Baroness Berridge
I agree with the noble Baroness that this is the worst Statement, but considering the situation the country faces, if it were possible to provide all the certainty with one click, it would be done. However, parents can be certain that, under the announcement, all schools will be open on Monday, but only for key workers and vulnerable children. In her example, that mother or father needs to go to school as normal if they are a key worker or their child is a vulnerable child. There could not be more consideration and importance being given to the disruption that we are aware will be caused to families as of Monday and to this generation of young people. As the noble Baroness accepted, it is not simple to work out a fair and just qualification for students, but if students are unhappy with the grade that they have been given in whatever the system that will be announced tomorrow is, there will be a way for them to have some form of redress. I assure her that all our education professionals, local authority professionals and central education staff are working as quickly as possible to provide accurate guidance, which, unfortunately, takes some time.
Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)
My Lords, I declare an interest: I have two grandsons about to take A-levels and one about to do music exams, all of which have been cancelled, and a granddaughter about to do GCSEs. There is very little reassurance in this Statement about what the Government intend to do for the thousands of young people who will see all their hard work being done for nothing at all. They need some solid measures about their futures urgently. The noble Baroness said that something is coming tomorrow that will provide a fair and just solution, but what are the Government planning to avoid mass distress and demotivation among our teenagers? Finally, there has been very little mention of further education and what is happening with technical qualifications. Are they equally going up in smoke?
Baroness Berridge
The noble Baroness is correct: the reassurance that we need to give will be given in the guidance regarding exams tomorrow. All the qualifications, including, for instance, the independent training providers and the apprenticeship training that goes on, are up for consideration and we recognise that they are all affected in the same way.
Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)
My Lords, I declare an interest as the mother of a teacher at Graveney School, a secondary school in south London. She is working hard with her A-level students to see that they get the best support possible. However, she and other teachers I know well have expressed concern that the IT equipment they have to provide distance learning if they have to work from home is not necessarily of the order that you would expect, for example, a university lecturer to have been given. Will the Government consider emergency help for schools to purchase up-to-date IT equipment for teachers to work effectively, certainly over the next six months?
Baroness Berridge
I thank the noble Baroness for her question. I will take that specific request back, but I know that we intend to do everything we can to support remote learning and teaching.
Lord Lexden (Con)
Is my noble friend aware that the 1,300 independent schools belonging to the Independent Schools Council want to do all they can to assist their local communities? I declare my interest as a former general secretary of the council. Has my noble friend noted in particular that they are anxious to help with childcare? To that end, they are getting in touch with their local authorities to concert practical plans. Finally, I ask the Government to bear carefully in mind the grave difficulties that independent schools will suffer if they are unable to secure help from insurance companies for business interruption.
Baroness Berridge
I am grateful to my noble friend for that question. Yesterday afternoon, I had the pleasure of speaking to the heads of both the ISC and the Boarding Schools’ Association. They passed on that message, particularly in relation to looked-after children who are in their care and will remain in their care for the moment. We are grateful for their offer of support, which I have passed on to the Secretary of State. When we talk about collaboration locally, that means all schools and colleges, including the independent sector.
Baroness Morris of Yardley (Lab)
My Lords, I welcome the assurance that we will hear more tomorrow about the future of exams, particularly A-levels, but I want to return to the issue. I cannot see the building blocks that are in place for a good decision to be arrived at. Given the move to end-of-course assessment, were we not to have exams, there is no national, universal, commonly agreed coursework that has been assessed and moderated and could be put towards the final grade. I would guard against using predicted grades as a decisive factor in determining whether a child goes to university. All the evidence shows that children from working-class backgrounds are constantly underpredicted in their A-level grades. I want the noble Baroness to address this question in particular: when the decision arrives tomorrow, what are the building blocks on which the Government are trying to make a vehicle for us to go forward? I just cannot see them, which concerns me the most.
Baroness Berridge
I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I reiterate that this will be a fair and just situation for all students. It is good that we are aware of factors such as underpredictions; all these matters are being taken into consideration. At the moment, I am not able to give details on the building blocks, but I expect that tomorrow’s guidance will give the noble Baroness the answers she requires.
Baroness Grender (LD)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a chair of governors at an inner-city primary school. I want to share some of the questions that my head teacher seeks clarification on.
First, only in the last hour have we had a communication from a social worker who is now working from home; they are attached to a vulnerable child but will be unable to see them. They are therefore asking the school to be the lead player in this relationship, rather than them. If the Minister does not have answer on this, it would be very helpful to have clarification soon on who leads in such a relationship. Whether people are working from home, or vulnerable families are self-isolating at the moment, who is the key worker who owns that relationship? If it is the school, then by all means it is the school, but we lack clarity on that at the moment. We already have a specific problem there.
My second question is about those families who are not in the free school meals category but are in-work poor. What are we going to do about them? For instance, would the Minister allow a head teacher discretionary powers to determine which families should get additional support, rather than the statutory voucher version of free school meals? Where is the ability for a head teacher, who knows the community well and can identify the children they know will not have a decent meal during this period, to use their discretion?
Baroness Berridge
I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I invite all noble Lords to keep these specific questions coming. We want to hear about the issues on the ground. I will confirm to the noble Baroness who the key worker is when the social worker is at home. In relation to head teachers, we are in collaboration with local authorities and expect them to use their discretion as they know their communities best. I will have to come back to her to clarify whether all those costs are covered by the reimbursement of free school meals provision that the Secretary of State announced yesterday.
Baroness Altmann (Con)
My Lords, I first commend my noble friend and her department on the heroic efforts they are clearly making to deal with the consequences and complexities of this difficult decision. I would like to ask a slightly different type of question. As an economist, I have seen so many times that models based on extrapolations or assumptions can turn out to be incorrect. Should we find ourselves in the fortunate position in a few weeks’ time that the predictions have turned out to be less dire than we might currently expect, is there some leeway to look at reviving the examination prospects for this younger cohort with respect to either GCSEs or A-levels, albeit perhaps a bit delayed, so that the knock-on consequences for universities might not be so significant and we might be able to pick up through the summer?
Baroness Berridge
My Lords, on the latter part of the noble Baroness’s question, we are acting on the scientific evidence; that is what has informed this decision. It would be utterly inaccurate of me to speculate at all about the future; we are making decisions on the basis of the scientific information that we have. I agree with her that there are heroic efforts happening on the front line as we speak, for schools and local authorities to prepare for what will happen on Monday. I welcome the comments of all noble Lords. We want to hear, whether directly through noble Lords or through local authorities, about all these granular issues that we know we need to address over the coming days.
The Archbishop of Canterbury
My Lords, clearly the educational world is working extraordinarily hard—one welcomes that—in its determination to deal with an extraordinarily difficult situation very quickly and under huge pressure. If we follow the Imperial College analysis model that was recently published, we can see in certain circumstances the repeated waves of Covid-19 going on for 18 to 24 months. At what point will we begin to move towards a longer-term view of what needs to happen? Clearly, schools cannot be closed for two years. I wonder whether the Government have in their mind the planning for the eventuality of longer-term infectious prevalence in this country.
Baroness Berridge
I am grateful to the most reverend Primate. At the moment, the Government are responding step by step to the scientific evidence that we have. Unlike in many situations, it is not possible for us to predict what might happen in the medium and longer term. We have only the scientific information to hand at the moment. I add to the tributes paid when I say that I had the pleasure yesterday of speaking to the head of the Church of England Education Service and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham, who are leading on Church of England schools, and the Catholic Education Service. We are going to need all their assistance. In particular, these groups have a lot of DBS-checked people who can give further assistance to our schools, and they are sometimes geographically placed right next to the local school.
Lord Cashman (Non-Afl)
My Lords, as a non-affiliated Member, I would like to raise a special plea with the Minister. Parents will be forced to make very difficult choices between care provisions for their children and work. This will have dire economic consequences, particularly for those on zero-hour contracts and the self-employed. The hospitality sector, where a lot of these people work, is decimated, including theatres, art establishments, cinemas and other associated venues. Therefore, I plead with the Minister, to make the case to the other departments that it is absolutely vital that we have employment protection, as well as access to benefits, for the self-employed and those on zero-hour contracts.
Baroness Berridge
My Lords, the Government are keenly aware that, in taking the decisions that we have in relation to movement of the public and schools to suppress the peak, there are massive implications for the economy, and a raft of measures have been introduced in relation to that. We have made changes to arrangements for statutory sick pay: it is now payable on first day off, and self-isolation is viewed as a sickness. The minimum income floor has been lowered in relation to self-employed people. But, yes, there is much work still to do on alleviating the effects on the economy for us all.
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
My Lords, we have 10 further minutes for Back-Bench questions on the Statement if noble Lords wish.
Baroness Blower (Lab)
My Lords, I am sure that the Minister recognises that it takes quite a while to get an education, health and care plan in place. I have been approached overnight by a number of teachers who are very concerned that there are children who are half way through the process and who will not yet have a plan, but who are vulnerable. Schools would definitely want to welcome them in. Can she confirm that it will be for the schools to decide which children come into the vulnerable category? Can she further confirm that the vouchers, which have been put in place very quickly, will actually be redeemable and that there will be somewhere for them to be redeemed, and that schools which want to keep their kitchens open will in some way or other be assured of food deliveries?
As the Minister said, local authorities will have a role in ensuring that all schools, whatever their governance, type and style, are encouraged to work together through the local authority to make provision in the most effective way. Can the Minister confirm that teachers are also key workers in these circumstances, and that their children have to go to school so that they can be at work providing a place for other people’s children to be looked after and, we hope, in some measure educated?
Baroness Berridge
My Lords, on vulnerable children, the EHC plan process and the needs assessment, we expect head teachers to collaborate with the local authority. There will be discretion for them on who is considered a vulnerable child. We trust them to make the appropriate decisions.
It has been clarified by the Box that the vouchers we are talking about are supermarket vouchers. Some schools have already been purchasing supermarket vouchers, which is why we say that they will be reimbursed for that cost. I know that all schools, including those in the independent sector, and childcare providers will be working closely on the ground to ensure that we can deliver this change in education to enable key workers to keep the services going that we need to protect us from the disease. As I said, the list of key workers will come out today, but I can confirm that teachers are key workers.
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)
My Lords, I have considerable sympathy for the Minister, because she has not been dealt a particularly strong hand. Perhaps I might ask her a question which appears to raise a slightly improbable issue: security. As I understand it, head teachers will be receiving on Monday those children who are qualified to be admitted. May I put the scenario of a desperate parent whose job may be on the line if they do not go into work? If such a person, through perfectly good motives, feels determined to press the issue, there is a severe risk of unpleasantness, if not something more. What consideration have the Government given to the notion that there will be a division between, if you like, sheep and goats, and that those who fall on the wrong side may, to put it mildly, cut up rough?
Baroness Berridge
My Lords, all I can say to the noble Lord is that it is for head teachers, in collaboration with the local authority, to be making these decisions. Obviously, we do not expect hordes of parents to be presenting at school when this information will have gone out. But there may be isolated cases, which we know and trust the head teacher, in collaboration with the local authority, will deal with—safely and respectfully, I hope.
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, I would like to ask my noble friend the Minister about childcare funding. Can she confirm that the Government will continue to provide the funding for the free hours of childcare, even if children are not attending? Given that nurseries often rely on additional hours and private funding to keep going, what further support might the Government provide to those nurseries so that they remain a going concern during this time?
Baroness Berridge
I am grateful to my noble friend. We are aware of the situation for early years funding. Yes, all the three and four year-old entitlements and disadvantaged two year-old entitlements that the Government pay will continue to be paid regardless of who walks through the door. As of yesterday, the early years providers were included in the business rates exemption. We are working closely with Her Majesty’s Treasury because we are aware of the mixed model of free entitlements funded by the Government and private income from other parents that is used by most early years providers.
Lord Adonis (Lab)
First, can the Minister tell us the legal basis under which the Government are acting? She will have picked up the concerns around the House about what happens when people feel that their livelihoods are at stake if they cannot place their children in school. If they do present on Monday and head teachers seek to turn children away, what is the precise legal basis on which they will be acting? Is there one? Secondly, on the issue of social equity, year 11 students’ whole future is at stake—whether they can go on to sixth form or college next year. I do not think that they or their parents will find it satisfactory that the arrangements for tomorrow are being put in place on a hit-and-miss basis. Would not the fair way of doing this be to guarantee that all year 11 students who wish to study in the sixth form of their school should have the right to do so, and the department should make that clear to schools, and that where their school does not have a sixth form, they should have the right to study at the local FE college? If not, there will be a massive sense of discontent and inequity in the country.
Baroness Berridge
My Lords, in relation to the sixth form issue, I will have to come back to the noble Lord. In relation to the legal power, obviously the Bill in relation to the coronavirus will be published today. As a lawyer, I will have to write to the noble Lord in relation to the precise legal basis that head teachers will have. But they will have protection to make the decisions that we have asked them to make.
The Earl of Erroll (CB)
We are told that very few children get infected. This has been proven in other countries as well. So why are we panicking so early and closing the schools when we were going to have the Easter holidays in about two weeks’ time anyway and they would all be revising at home? In which case, we would not be possibly ruining the potential future careers of this generation of children. Some children perform much better in exams, some on coursework, so we are now going to bias it towards those pupils who have a good relationship with their teachers rather than a bad relationship and who perform well on coursework. There are gender issues in that as well.
Baroness Berridge
My Lords, there is no panic in relation to this. As the Statement said, the spike of the virus is increasing at a faster pace than had been anticipated. If it had been possible to introduce this later, coinciding with the school holidays, obviously that would have been ideal, but that is not the situation that we have. We have a disease that we are trying to protect the public from and that is our absolute priority. We are aware, as I say, of all the issues in relation to having a model that will give students a fair and just qualification but which is not based on their having sat an exam.
Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)
My Lords, as a former Schools Minister and Minister for Higher Education, I can begin to imagine the immense pressures under which officials and Ministers labour as they seek to find practical solutions to the myriad difficulties that become apparent in this crisis. I thank the Minister for her candour in her responses. My question to her is about the Government’s plans for communication. She has kindly said that she will write to my noble friend Lord Watson; I am sure she has more ambitious plans for communication than that. Can I urge the Government to err on the side of excess in their communications? Will she, for example, ensure that we receive emails containing detailed answers to all the questions that noble Lords today have put and to the other questions that are being asked across the country, so that all of us can assist the department in this very important challenge of communication?
Baroness Berridge
Yes, I have reassured noble Lords that communication is going out daily from the department to head teachers, as it has been since early March. However, as noble Lords have requested it, in looking for the will of the House I will write to all noble Lords to answer in one fell swoop all the questions they have raised.
Covid-19: Employment Support
(4 years, 8 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, I will now repeat in the form of a Statement the answer to an Urgent Question made in the House of Commons by the Economic Secretary to the Treasury, John Glen. The Statement is as follows:
“Mr Speaker, this is an uncertain time for our country, but the Government are clear that they will do whatever it takes to protect our people and businesses from the coronavirus pandemic. On Tuesday, the Chancellor of the Exchequer set out further steps in the Government’s economic response, building on the initial response he outlined in the Budget last week. This included standing behind businesses small and large, with an unprecedented package of government-backed and guaranteed loans to support businesses to get through this crisis. I have been working very closely with him and the banks and they are very clear about their responsibility to make these work.
The Government have made available an initial £330 billion of guarantees—equivalent to 15% of our GDP. That means that any business which needs cash to pay salaries will be able to access a government-backed loan, on attractive terms. The Government will do whatever it takes to support our economy through this crisis and stand ready to provide further support where necessary.
As the Chancellor announced, we will go much further to support people’s financial security, working with trade unions and business groups. Following his appearance before the Treasury Select Committee yesterday afternoon, the Chancellor spoke to the trade unions and he will today be meeting the TUC, the CBI, the BCC and the FSB—I will not spell out those acronyms. This will be with a view to urgently developing new forms of employment support to help protect people’s jobs and incomes through this period.
I am sure that you will appreciate that these are unprecedented times. The Chancellor has said he will look at further steps to help protect jobs and incomes, and he will announce further details in due course.”
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. We welcome the Government’s commitment to do whatever it takes during this crisis, and especially the comments about not just standing behind business but standing shoulder to shoulder with businesses and workers and engaging with the trade unions and the TUC. I have only two questions for the Minister. First, when will the new forms of employment support be introduced? Secondly, are the Government considering paying the majority of wages to provide the job guarantees? As Gordon Brown said earlier today, if families do not have income protection, there will be a lot of other consequences. People may try to work when they are sick, putting themselves at risk, so their health becomes a public health issue.
Lord Callanan
I thank the noble Lord for his questions and for the responsible attitude that the Opposition are taking to this emergency. I am afraid that I am unable to give him a timescale at the moment; I can say only that all government departments are working as urgently as they possibly can on these matters. As soon as we have any further information on schemes that will be introduced, the Chancellor will make the appropriate announcement.
Baroness Grender (LD)
I wish to associate myself with the thanks for the Statement. The difficulty is that the people are being laid off now, and those who have no cash are the ones we worry about most. Have the Government considered paying two-thirds of salaries, like the Governments of Denmark and France, in order to ensure that people have temporary relief? Will the Government consider the very interesting Resolution Foundation suggestion of using a model of statutory maternity pay? The welcome measures yesterday for private renters will not be enough. I regret the lack of scrutiny of that in this House today. Will the Government consider looking at the local housing allowance, given that there is such a shortfall at the moment? Perhaps something could be done about that, because it reaches directly into the homes that we are most concerned about. Finally, what will happen to freelancers, from creative industries right through to cleaners? They are not in business and are not employed but self-employed. Often they do not even have the status where the Government will find them.
Lord Callanan
I thank the noble Baroness for her questions. Their extent reveals the number of different sectors of the economy that we will need to look at. As she says, they range from sole traders to small businesses and to the very largest companies. We are looking at a comprehensive package. There are a number of different international models that have been introduced. A number of think tanks in the UK have also produced suggestions. They are all being examined at the moment. We are guided by three principles: it has to be a comprehensive package; it has to be co-ordinated; and it has to be coherent. The noble Baroness will understand that we need to look at these things properly. It is no good having a scheme that comes into effect in six months’ time. It needs to work now, it needs to be available and it needs to be deliverable. We are doing all those things, and we will make the appropriate announcements as soon as we possibly can. I understand people’s natural frustration and their wish for urgent action.
Lord Balfe (Con)
I wish to make a very minor but important point. At the moment, if a company is insolvent, the workers do not get paid. They can have worked for several weeks up to the date of insolvency but when insolvency comes, their pay is basically at the mercy of the receiver, or whoever is winding up the company. In the Statement the Minister said that any business that needs cash to pay salaries will be able to access a government-backed loan. In other words, a company that cannot pay salaries but is not becoming insolvent will apparently be able to access it. I know that in its submission to the Government the TUC has asked for a relaxation of the rules on insolvent companies, and I realise that it will probably be beyond the Minister’s pay grade to agree that that will be done, but will he agree to reflect to the Government that this point has been raised and possibly to write to let us know what has been decided? This is a small category, but companies are going to go bankrupt and workers may be denied their wages, while others in companies that have not gone bankrupt will be able to access a loan. It is a small point, but it is very important.
Lord Callanan
The noble Lord speaks with great authority on these matters. This might be a small point, but I agree with him that it is important. Actually, within my ministerial portfolio I have responsibility for the Insolvency Service, although not for the Treasury and the guarantees that it will provide. I take on board my noble friend’s point and will make sure that it is conveyed to the Chancellor. My noble friend’s intervention is welcome.
Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)
I declare an interest as a freelance series producer working at Raw TV making content for CNN. The Minister was asked about coverage for the self-employed and freelancers who have been made unemployed and he said that he was looking at that and wanted it done properly. However, these people have no prospect of work at the moment. Their income has suddenly stopped, and their bills have not. Is it not possible very quickly to put in place an emergency fund, as has happened in other countries, and at the very least to extend statutory sick pay to all workers affected by Covid-19? Surely that could be done very quickly.
Lord Callanan
I think, again, the noble Lord makes a very good point. We have of course already announced extensions to statutory sick pay and the qualifying period. His points are well made and echo the points made earlier about freelancers. All the different sectors of the economy need to be looked at. We will do whatever it takes. We will put in place a comprehensive package and will announce details of that as soon as we are able to.
Lord Hendy (Lab)
My Lords, all legal categories of worker will need income protection in this crisis, but can the Minister say whether the income protection proposals will cover, in the mind of the Government, five particular situations? First, there are those who will be off sick with coronavirus: clearly, they will be entitled to statutory sick pay, even though it is a pittance at £94.25 a week—a figure that will have to be increased. Secondly, there are those who are self-isolating and are not sick—at least not yet—and will not be entitled to statutory sick pay because they are not sick. Thirdly, there will be those who are off work to care for others, including children shut out of school, who will never be entitled to statutory sick pay but who do need income protection. Fourthly, there will be those who lose their jobs because of the loss of trade by reason of Covid-19 or following advice from Public Health England or the Government. I remind the Minister that the Financial Times this morning said that over 200,000 people in restaurants and catering have already lost their jobs—have been laid off—since mid-February. I noted that the figure did not include air transport or the holiday trade; I saw in the newspaper yesterday that British Airways had served an HR1, and it has 30,000 employees. Income protection must cover those who have lost or may yet lose their jobs. Fifthly, will it cover those who are redeployed from existing work to do emergency work, social care work or other work, not just volunteers?
Lord Callanan
I thank the noble Lord for his question, which illustrates the complexity of the problem, all the different factors that need to be taken into consideration, and how there needs to be a cross-government response, across a number of departments and obviously backed by the Treasury with comprehensive financing. The answer to his question is: yes, all these matters are being looked at. We are looking at various international options and proposals and we will hopefully have something to announce very soon.
Baroness Warsi (Con)
Can my noble friend inform the House whether much broader thinking is now being done by government about employees who are affected by the coronavirus crisis, not just regarding health issues for those self-isolating or who have symptoms, but those who are now affected because they have children at home or because the people they work for do not have the orders and they are therefore short-working, and those who are not contractually protected—people on zero-hours contracts? Would it be easier for the Government simply to respond to people’s needs because they are impacted by coronavirus, rather than breaking them down into specific categories?
Lord Callanan
Similarly to the previous question, my noble friend’s question reflects the complexities of the issue and why a comprehensive response is required. We are working on that; we of course have universal credit, the social security system—the welfare system—for people to fall back on, but there are numerous different aspects to it and different sectors of the economy that will require a response. We are working on it urgently and cross-departmentally; the whole of government is focused on this and we will come back to both Houses as soon as we possibly can.
Hong Kong: Covid-19
(4 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Pendry
To move that this House takes note of the problems facing the citizens of Hong Kong as a result of COVID-19; and the case for Her Majesty’s Government providing support to those affected in the light of the 1984 Sino-British Declaration.
Lord Pendry (Lab)
My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to move this Motion. There are major concerns for the people of Hong Kong. It is a pity that we have to raise issues affecting our former colony only when there is a crisis or two—whether the Covid-19 problems emanating from mainland China, which are now global and affecting our own country, or the problems concerning the anti-democratic, brutal measures being inflicted on the people of Hong Kong in their legitimate struggle for a return to the lives they enjoyed at the time of the Sino-British declaration of 1984 and the handover agreement of 1997.
I pray the indulgence of the House that the Motion before us is somewhat different from what I intended, but the world has moved on since I submitted it. Nevertheless, hopefully we can cover some of the main issues affecting Hong Kong today. Initially, I was concerned on hearing from some of my friends in Hong Kong about the difficulty of obtaining face masks, especially for the disabled, the elderly and low- income groups. They requested that I find out whether there was a surplus of face mask production in the United Kingdom in the hope that Hong Kong might be assisted in its plight.
In response, I put down a parliamentary Question on what steps the Government were pursuing to ensure sufficient face mask production for any such eventuality. The Minister—I hasten to add, not the Minister who will reply to this debate—answered:
“Face masks for the general public are not recommended to protect from infection, as there is no evidence of the benefit of their use outside healthcare environments.”
We cannot assist those in need in Hong Kong with that kind of answer. Happily, I have heard since that some considerable community initiatives in Hong Kong—from entrepreneurs, community groups and individuals—are together forcing the Hong Kong Government belatedly to be more positive in their response to the needs of the people they represent. Indeed, there was a flurry of companies and non-profit groups working together to combat this problem.
However, I wish to cover many of the other issues facing Hong Kong today. The United Kingdom was a co-signatory to the agreements of 1984 and 1997. The people of Hong Kong expect this country to stand shoulder to shoulder with them as they attempt to preserve their heartfelt rights. Those who have lived in Hong Kong—in my case, during my national service in the Royal Air Force in the late 1950s—have followed the slow but relentless attempt to democratise Hong Kong. Mainland China is now using its muscle to break that progress in its determination to have a dictatorial, bureaucratic regime. By so doing, it is rightfully demonstrating that the problems are of its making. As a country, we have to do something about that.
At the time of the Sino-British joint declaration of 1984, there seemed to be great hope that future progress would be made. The guarantees that were signed by the United Kingdom and China in 1984 and registered with the United Nations were the hope of those who are now demonstrating. The treaty contained undertakings that the previous Hong Kong capitalist system and lifestyle would remain unchanged for 50 years and that the Chinese and Hong Kong law would remain. That included the freedoms of speech, press, assembly and association, the forming of trade unions, et cetera.
It is clear that the abandonment of these freedoms is a direct contradiction of the declarations. The noble Lord, Lord Patten of Barnes, went on the record so aptly at that time, saying:
“Hong Kong people are to run Hong Kong. That is the promise—and that is the unshakable destiny.”
But that was in 1997—a far cry from 2020.
Since the handover, we have seen an unfulfilled promise of democratisation, a weakening of the judiciary, a legislature dominated by corporate factions and cronies of the Communist Party and, for the past year, bloodshed on the streets as the guardians of law become the weapons of the state. There is a recent development that I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Alton, will wish to refer to, as he and the noble Lord, Lord Patten, made strong representations about the arrest of three citizens in Hong Kong. One is the former chairman of the Hong Kong Labour Party and another the former chairman of the Hong Kong Democratic Party. I will leave that, because I am sure the noble Lord knows rather more about it than I do.
The important part of my Motion is for the United Kingdom to support those citizens in their efforts for their democratic rights to be restored and to enlist the support of the United Nations, which was present at the declarations and should be involved in finding solutions to overcome the current situation. After all, there has been a breach of these agreements and the United Nations, the custodian of international law, must be enlisted by the Government to bring the Chinese to the negotiating table with the aim of bringing a successful conclusion to this crisis.
This historical backdrop illustrates the challenging relationship our nation has to strike with China, a vital trade partner, and Hong Kong, for which we bear a historical responsibility. We must press the issues of Hong Kong’s autonomy and institutions, as laid out in the Sino-British joint declaration. The pro-democracy movement demonstrated at the very beginning its legitimate response to the failure of both the Chinese and Hong Kong Governments to deliver on the commitments in the 1984 and 1997 declarations. In my view, we are duty-bound to take a lead.
The important issue of citizenship has once more raised its head. Many of us who raised this in another place during the handover proceedings in 1997 called on the British Government to give the right of abode to BNO passport holders in the event of China reneging on the joint declaration agreement. We all know now that China has done just that. In a very timely intervention, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, a former Attorney-General in a previous Labour Government, states that there is nothing to prevent the UK Government extending free right of abode to those passport holders and that it would not be a breach of the joint declaration. It would certainly be a way of showing that we in this country are in accord with those anxious people in need of such an assurance at this time.
Another issue I raised in the last debate on Hong Kong is what is happening in our universities, where Hong Kong students are suffering at the hands of fellow students from mainland China. The universities of Sheffield, Oxford, Cambridge, Durham and others are reporting problems of abuse in this regard. No group to my knowledge has suffered more than UK Hong Kong students studying here. In Cambridge, for instance, students campaigning to revoke Carrie Lam’s Cambridge honorary fellowship were harassed repeatedly by email and physically, while students who supported Hong Kong demonstrators were also subject to such abuse. In Oxford, a social media group campaigned against fellow students supportive of Hong Kong after the student union passed a motion condemning police brutality in Hong Kong.
So I call again, as I have done before, for our Government to take the lead in defending the rights of Hong Kong students expressing the democratic rights that they hold so dearly, as we do for our students in the universities. In response to my plea in the last debate, the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, said that it was
“unacceptable for anyone to be intimidated by any bullying. Universities have a duty of care to protect all students.”—[Official Report, 24/10/19; col. 768.]
I agree. He wished me to give him more information. If the Minister wishes to obtain more, I have evidence to give him. The Government must give a firm and positive plea to our universities to uphold their distinctive rights for academic freedom. The Government should encourage our universities to ensure that freedom of expression is not tarnished by the antics employed by students from mainland China in these cases.
There is also the area, as far as the Chinese Government are concerned, of what they think of as their rights in the economy. Chinese economic progress cannot possibly be fulfilled without a stable Hong Kong stock market. Now, according to that excellent document by Hong Kong Watch, Why Hong Kong Matters, around 70% of its capital is raised by Chinese firms, and that is their main source of foreign funding. The document makes the point that Hong Kong’s unique status in the eyes of the world is as China’s leading financial centre, adding that progress depends on the rule of law and freedom of movement. In my view, it would be sheer madness for China not to agree to an independent inquiry into the disruptions that flowed from the legitimate demands of the demonstrators for freedom and democracy.
On a visit to Hong Kong in the early 1970s I met a young lady fresh from college, then a journalist, by the name of Emily Lau, who then as now was a passionate advocate of democracy in Hong Kong. Today she is still actively pursuing necessary change. Until recently Emily was the chairperson of the Hong Kong Democratic Party. She gives an inspirational lead to many who think that democracy Hong Kong must be pursued. We must not let her and her colleagues down.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, in these challenging and difficult times, right across the House we are all grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Pendry, for initiating today’s debate. It gives the House an opportunity to return to some of the issues that were raised on 24 October when we last debated this, when two former governors of Hong Kong, my noble friend Lord Wilson of Tillyorn and the noble Lord, Lord Patten of Barnes, also participated. Later in my remarks I will say something, as the noble Lord, Lord Pendry, has invited me to, about the arrests that have recently taken place. I should mention at the outset that I am a patron of Hong Kong Watch and vice-chair of the all-party groups on Hong Kong and Xinjiang.
We gather today against a sombre background of the coronavirus, which has claimed some 3,237 lives in China and a further four in Hong Kong. Outside China the number of deaths globally stands at 8,971. Since its emergence in Wuhan, some 81,928 people in China have become infected.
Initially, the Chinese Government delayed announcing the discovery of the virus and silenced those who sought to warn the world of what was unfolding, suppressing information rather than the virus. Every moment lost has set back the time required time to develop a vaccine.
One of the great heroes to emerge from this crisis is the ophthalmologist, Li Wenliang, who was forced to recant by the Communist authorities, and subsequently died, along with three other doctors, at his hospital in Wuhan, where he was ministering to his patients. Last week, in an interview with the Chinese magazine Renwu, meaning “people”, Ai Fen, director of the emergency at Wuhan Central Hospital, said that she too was reprimanded after alerting her superiors and colleagues of a SARS-like virus seen in patients in December. She said:
“If I had known what was to happen, I would not have cared about the reprimand. I would have … talked about it to whoever, where ever I could”.
In a move demonstrating all the hallmarks of a dictatorship, the interview has been removed from the magazine and deleted from social media sites.
You could argue that this virus of concealment—silencing of opinion or dissent, and the crushing of doctors trying to save lives—is a far more deadly disease than coronavirus itself. When this is over, as I hope it will be, China should reflect on a lethal system and an ideology which has brought enormous suffering on the world. It is little wonder that the people of Hong Kong fear for their future, not because of Covid-19 but because of the accelerated and worrying attempts to disembowel their fundamental freedoms, the rule of law and the liberties which they have long enjoyed under “one country, two systems”. Anyone who doubts the nature of this ideology should read Julia Lovell’s spellbinding book, Maoism: A Global History.
The arrival of coronavirus in January led to open dissent in Hong Kong, which would have been crushed on the mainland. But that strike by Hong Kong’s doctors and 3,000 medical workers, who urged borders to be sealed and other measures to be taken, was a wake-up call which has saved many lives. It is notable that free Taiwan, with just 48 confirmed cases and one death, has not sacrificed democracy in controlling this disease. Instead of forcing the WHO to exclude Taiwan, Beijing should have learned from Taipei.
As ordinary people in other parts of the world come out on to their balconies to applaud the people working to save their lives, how bitterly ironic it is that, in Hong Kong, the authorities have been actively targeting medics with the threat of disciplinary action for missing work. Beijing should show less contempt for the strengths of liberal democracy and return to Deng Xiaoping’s path of reform.
Recall too that the Hong Kong Government’s initial mishandling of the crisis further entrenched divisions across the city and ingrained a deep distrust in the already faltering rule of the Chief Executive, Carrie Lam. Despite the coronavirus enforcing a hiatus on the large-scale democracy protests that we saw in Hong Kong last year, the Chief Executive continues to use archaic public order laws to detain political activists on politically motivated charges. This includes the recent arrest of Jimmy Lai, the most prominent pro-democracy newspaper owner in Hong Kong, and the former democratic lawmakers Lee Cheuk-yan and Yeung Sum. These arrests call to mind the “knock on the door at the dead of night” and the rounding-up of opposition voices by the NKVD, the KGB, the Gestapo, the Securitate, the Stasi and the rest.
The methodology and practices of the Cultural Revolution, along with the totalitarianism and intolerance of authoritarian states, should be consigned to history, not mimicked in Hong Kong. The authorities there should be using all their energy and resources to fight the coronavirus, not to harass and intimidate proponents of democracy. I hope that the Government will use the Magnitsky powers and sanctions against those responsible for these appalling offences.
These arrests represent a truly shocking and very serious setback for “one country, two systems” and for Hong Kong’s freedoms. I hope that the Minister spells out what implications the arrests of three prominent mainstream pro-democracy leaders has for the prospects of “one country, two systems” and the protection of freedoms promised to the Hong Kong people under the Sino-British joint declaration and guaranteed under Basic Law. They should be galvanising the international community and urging the authorities to drop these charges.
If anything, under the cover of darkness, which this global pandemic is, we have witnessed a deepening of the attacks on Hong Kong’s basic freedoms; take, for example, the recent protests marking the six-month anniversary of the attack on commuters at the Prince Edward MTR station and the death of Chow Tsz-lok. The protests ended with the police pointing loaded guns, and pepper spraying and arresting unarmed protestors. The United Nations Human Rights Committee has repeatedly expressed concern that the continued application of what it calls “unlawful assembly” against Hong Kong protesters risks violating their basic human rights.
In the past nine months, over 7,000 protestors have been arrested and only one in seven has been charged. Some 40% of those arrested attend either university or high school; this includes 750 children, the youngest of whom is just 12 years of age. The decision last week to move the pro-democracy activist Edward Leung, who is serving a six-year sentence for “rioting”, to a maximum-security prison reserved for serious criminals is a further sign of the hard-line approach that the Hong Kong Government are seeking to take.
It is noteworthy that even Iran has been freeing prisoners during this dangerous time—but not Hong Kong. Carrie Lam is no doubt following the lead of the Communist Party in Beijing, which has used the coronavirus as cover to install two hard-line loyalists in key positions in Hong Kong to do its bidding. This includes Xia Baolong, an ally of President Xi Jinping, who received international condemnation for waging an ideological war against Christians in Zhejiang province in 2014-15, involving the destruction of thousands of crosses and churches. Despite the petitions of the Swedish Government, Beijing has also pushed ahead with the harsh sentencing of the Hong Kong bookseller Gui Minhai. Abducted in Thailand in 2016 to stand trial in a Chinese court, the former bookseller was handed a 10-year sentence for allegedly “illegally providing intelligence overseas”. His kidnapping and draconian sentence will do little to ease the fears of many Hong Kongers that any future extradition Bill between the city and the mainland could see them too facing the Chinese Communist Party’s brand of justice.
The Chinese Communist Party this week also took the unprecedented step of announcing the expulsion of United States citizens working for the Wall Street Journal, Washington Post and New York Times from China, Hong Kong and Macau. It is a flagrant assault on press freedom and was roundly condemned by the noble Lord, Lord Patten, and others. At a moment when the world needs openness, transparency and accountability, this serves to remind us of the nature of Beijing’s regime, and demonstrates why the majority of Hong Kongers are so fearful as they gaze across the bamboo curtain at a society that does not uphold human rights and the rule of law, and is willing to break international treaty obligations.
Can the Minister tell the House what representations the Foreign Office has made to the Government in Beijing over this clear violation of Hong Kong’s Basic Law and the Sino-British joint declaration? Can he also tell us what discussions he has had with his United States counterparts about the possibility of our Governments taking joint action in response? After all, what is to stop the acolytes and apparatchiks of the Chinese Communist Party turning their gaze to target US journalists who work for British news publications in mainland China, Hong Kong, and Macau, or even British journalists as well?
Our country’s historic, legal and moral duty to Hong Kong, as a counterbalance to the encroachment of the Chinese Communist Party, is indisputable. That is why I am deeply saddened and disturbed by reports in last week’s Sunday Times that the Home Office and Scotland Yard have been collaborating with the Chinese Government to produce facial recognition software to identify and target protestors who wear masks. The Minister needs to tell us how much British taxpayers’ money has been spent on developing this software, the extent of the British Government’s collaboration, and whether participation will be suspended as a matter of urgency. Failing to do so risks reputational damage, accusations of complicity in human rights abuses of people in Hong Kong and China, and forfeiting our right to be seen as an honest broker.
In seeking to play a constructive role, the British Government must help to de-escalate tensions in Hong Kong as part of their obligations under the 1984 joint declaration. They should support calls for an independent inquiry—referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Pendry—into the policing of last year’s protests and the current state of the rule of law. This is vital to the restoration of the reputation of the Hong Kong Police Force, trust between Hong Kongers and the Chief Executive, and Hong Kong’s standing as a city governed by the rule of law. I hope the Minister will comment on the evidence given in Parliament by the Hong Kong surgeon Darren Mann—which I heard personally—about the appalling treatment of medical workers treating those caught up in the protests.
Perhaps he would also respond to the proposal put to the Foreign Secretary, Dominic Raab, by 173 Members of both Houses for a Commonwealth initiative to guarantee second citizenship and a second right of abode to all Hong Kong citizens, should they need it, and on the UK’s special obligation to the 200,000 British national (overseas) passport holders, many of whom are living in a state of fear, uncertain about their long-term future in Hong Kong and feeling abandoned by the British Government.
As the noble Lord, Lord Pendry, said, the House will want to hear the Minister’s response to the recent legal advice published by the former Attorney-General, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, which makes it clear that the UK Government would not
“be in breach of any obligation undertaken in the joint declaration were it to resolve to extend full right of abode to BN(O) passport holders while continuing to honour their side of the Sino-British Joint Declaration.”
At the very minimum, we should offer Hong Kong students a right to remain in the UK after the completion of their studies and BNO passport holders preferential treatment under the Government’s new immigration system.
China needs the genius of Hong Kong’s people, but there will be a flight of people and capital if it continues to erode its freedoms, the rule of law and prosperity. From 2010 to 2018, Hong Kong was home to 73% of the initial public offerings of mainland Chinese companies—including Alibaba, which decided to list in Hong Kong at the height of the unrest last year. Similarly, the Hong Kong-Shanghai stock connect scheme is increasingly the preferred means by which western investors access the mainland stock market, and Hong Kong is the largest offshore centre for bond sales by Chinese companies.
Some mention Shanghai or Singapore as potential alternatives to Hong Kong, but the study by Hong Kong Watch that the noble Lord referred to found that neither is a reliable alternative in the short term. Shanghai and Hong Kong serve completely different markets and complement rather than compete with each other. Singapore’s stock market capitalisation is not in the same league and its business culture is starkly different.
The current deadlock between democracy protestors and the Hong Kong Government is unsustainable. Political reform, including universal suffrage, is the only way forward. As I saw while observing Hong Kong’s district council elections at the end of last year, its people want more democracy, not less. For as long as street protest is the only means of representation for Hong Kong’s disenfranchised populace, divisions within the city will remain and the threat of violence and escalating conflict will linger.
When he replies to this timely and very welcome debate, I hope the Minister will tell the House what conversations he has had with Chief Executive Carrie Lam about the introduction of universal suffrage, wider democratic reform and our obligations as a signatory and guarantor of the joint declaration. For now, our common humanity—whether in China or the United Kingdom, London or Hong Kong—should unite us in learning to better understand the deepest human needs and upholding the sanctity and dignity of every human life.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I also commence by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Pendry, for initiating this debate. What a pleasure it is to follow the noble Lord, Lord Alton. He has been a stalwart defender of Hong Kong and its people’s rights for as long as I can remember, and that is a very long time. I also declare that I am a vice-president of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on China. I make my remarks today as someone who recognises the positive role that China can and sometimes does play in the world. In my criticisms of its role in Hong Kong today, I urge it to think of the longer term as a more confident leader in the world rather than an authoritarian one, which is where it is tending to in its actions in Hong Kong.
As many noble Lords have already alluded to, the arrival of Covid-19 has impacted Hong Kong in many ways as severely as Hubei province or other parts of China. I pay tribute to Hong Kong’s medical services, which are among the best in the world. The level of dedication of medics working in Hong Kong to its residents was seen during the worst of the clamp-down against protesters only a few months ago, when they risked their own safety to assist the wounded and those needing medical attention due to the disproportionate violence used against those protesters.
The good news is that after months on the front line of the Covid-19 pandemic, and despite Hong Kong’s numerous transport links with mainland China and cross-border commuting workers, its population of 7 million has had around 170 cases and only four deaths.
However, this crisis has also reinforced people’s mistrust of the Hong Kong Government. Their containment of the crisis has been thanks to their own efforts. Unlike in other countries, Hong Kongers did not wait for announcements from the Chief Executive to act against the spread of Covid-19. Instead, many elected to self-isolate weeks before they were formally asked to do so. They understood that the unique population density of Hong Kong required individual sacrifice in terms of their freedoms and their earnings, irrespective of the views of their Government.
Similarly, medical workers did not wait for the Hong Kong Government to shut the borders with the mainland to limit the spread of the virus. They went out on strike to ensure that the Government did so. In fact, much of Hong Kong’s response to Covid-19 has been precisely because the people of Hong Kong, after large, city-wide protests for months, do not trust the Government to act in their best interests.
In such a febrile environment, where images of protesters being brutalised by the police have become so widespread, the role a free press plays is particularly important and that is what I want to press the Minister on. While a free press is a paramount liberty everywhere, the freedom of the press in Hong Kong is vital, not only because it supports the free exchange of information, necessary for the city’s continuing survival as one of the largest financial centres in Asia, but as a safeguard for the rule of law and the freedoms that Hong Kong enjoys under the “one country, two systems” model. But, presumably under the instruction of Beijing, the Hong Kong Government continue to use public order ordinance laws to arrest pro-democracy activists, as has already been mentioned. This includes the Hong Kong police arresting Jimmy Lai, the most prominent pro-democracy newspaper owner in Hong Kong, as well as former lawmakers Lee Cheuk-yan and Yeung Sum, on politically motivated charges relating to illegal assembly last month.
Apropos Jimmy Lai, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Patten of Barnes—with his extensive experience of Hong Kong—who has described these arrests as an attempt to frighten and intimidate the pro-democracy movement by targeting one of Hong Kong’s most notable newspaper proprietors. When people see the hand of Beijing behind these arrests, this is not a conspiracy theory; they can see the appointment of Xia Baolong as the new head of the Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office, as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, mentioned. It is said that his appointment signals further controls by the Communist Party of China on Hong Kong and particularly on civil society.
This week has also seen the unprecedented decision by the Chinese foreign ministry to ban US journalists from the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times, not only from mainland China, which started happening a few weeks ago, but from Hong Kong and Macau. This move is a flagrant attack on the freedom of the press and in direct contravention of Hong Kong’s Basic Law itself and China’s obligations under the Sino-British joint declaration. This comes at a time when, due to the spread of Covid-19, the world needs openness, transparency and accountability more than ever, which is not possible without a free press. As the UK is a co-signatory to the joint declaration, I ask the Minister what conversations he has had with the Chinese ambassador regarding these moves to clamp down on the independent media, not only for Hong Kong but to prevent the rest of the world knowing what is happening there.
It would be a dereliction of our duty to Hong Kong to allow the Chinese Government to take advantage of our distractions in the West to push through a more hard-line position on these basic freedoms.
Let me give an example of why it is in China’s own interests to keep Hong Kong functioning as a free and open society. Apart from the moral and legal position, we know that the reason why Hong Kong is one of the world’s pre-eminent financial and legal services centres is that the rule of law prevails there. Its courts are trusted and respected, and its financial regulators are part of the global effort and have high standards. But we have seen that the slow erosion of trust in the Hong Kong Government has taken its toll on business confidence in Hong Kong and may continue to have a dampening effect as we go forward.
So I urge HM Government to work with the Chinese Government to retain Hong Kong’s freedoms at this time of global upheaval. We are starting to see a dangerous erosion of the “one country, two systems” model to “one country, one system”, from which there can be only losers—no winners. I also want to press the Minister on what discussion he has had with other Governments—particularly the US, which is a permanent member of the UN Security Council—as these matters are a breach of the joint declaration, and we must therefore have a co-ordinated response to them.
Can the Minister confirm what expectation the Foreign Office has that UK citizens working on publications in China, Hong Kong and Macau will not be targeted? What steps are being taken to ensure that British journalists are protected and can do their work without fear of government harassment or threat of expulsion?
If the last nine months in Hong Kong have demonstrated anything, it is that the political deadlock will remain until there is a significant compromise between the democracy protesters and the Chief Executive. That compromise will inevitably involve some form of political reform that meets the original commitments under the joint declaration. The UK Government, as a co-signatory, have an indispensable role to play. I hope that the Government will listen to those who have spoken today and start living up to the UK’s legal and moral obligations to the people of Hong Kong.
Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)
My Lords, like others I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Pendry for calling this important debate today. I also want to pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, who has for so many years been an incredible inspiration and champion of human rights the world over.
While the coronavirus has catalysed a ceasefire in the political unrest in Hong Kong, none of the underlying tension has been resolved, and therefore it is likely that unrest will resurface. We must not lose sight of the importance of this issue. The ceasefire gives the Hong Kong Government an opportunity to de-escalate and promote reconciliation, and I hope that the Government are pressing them to do this rather than continue their crack-down.
As the director of the International Bar Association’s Human Rights Institute, I would like to make a few comments on the disturbing pressure that Hong Kong’s rule of law is under. The presiding justice of the Court of Final Appeal, Kemal Bokhary, recently said that Hong Kong’s rule of law was facing a “full force” storm. Given our shared legal heritage and common law system, and given the fact that the rule of law underpins Hong Kong’s position as an international business hub, I know that this will be a matter of concern for many in this House.
This House will recall that the protest movement began in 2019 precisely because the rule of law is cherished by the Hong Kong people. Civil society groups, businesses, lawyers and politicians united to condemn the extradition law because it would inevitably have resulted in Hong Kong citizens being extradited to face unjust trials in mainland China.
The institute I direct joined in with a statement from leading British and international legal bodies stating that Bill would fail to adequately protect human rights and fundamentally imperil the operation of the rule of law. We said:
“In so far as the proposals would introduce any human rights examination at all, they are vested in Hong Kong’s Chief Executive who, in view of her function and the nature of her appointment, would appear to lack the necessary impartiality and independence to adjudicate such issues.”
That of course was a veiled expression of concern about the way that Carrie Lam was carrying out her role.
While 2014’s political unrest in Hong Kong was about democratic reforms, the 2019 political unrest was primarily about the preservation of fundamental rights and the rule of law. The extradition Bill was the spark that lit the bonfire, and it was particularly toxic because it followed years of pressure on the rule of law and on fundamental rights. Victor Mallet, the Financial Times Asia editor who was expelled from Hong Kong, wrote an op ed piece before the protests broke out which stated:
“The popular myth about boiling a frog—that the animal jumps out of the pot if placed in boiling water but he will die when plonked in cold water and gradually cooked—should be recalled by anyone involved in politics, business or the law in Asia today. In most cases, freedom and the rule of law are being eroded only gradually, but the erosion is real and the cumulative effect substantial.”
The noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, mentioned the undermining of press freedom. Given the commitment of this Government to media freedom, I hope that the issue is being raised with Hong Kong in our interactions with the Executive. From the abduction of booksellers in 2015 to the prosecution of political activists under anachronistic, colonial-era public order legislation, which has already been referred to; from the political screening of candidates for election following Beijing’s interpretation of the constitution to the banning of a political party, the temperature has been slowly rising for years. But with the extradition Bill, that temperature dialled up 1 degree higher than the people could stand and the protest movement was the result.
What is of most concern is that the protest movement has exposed the underlying rot in the system. The police have enjoyed impunity when using excessive force, which has eroded public trust in the system. I hope that the Minister agrees that it is vital that an independent inquiry is called into the events of recent months—other speakers have mentioned that—and,H if the Hong Kong Government are unwilling to initiate that themselves, we should urge the United Nations to do so and to initiate a truth and reconciliation commission.
Perhaps the biggest watershed moment for the judiciary went largely unnoticed around the world because of current events. After Hong Kong’s High Court rightly pronounced the Chief Executive Carrie Lam’s application of the emergency regulations ordinance as being unconstitutional, China’s National People’s Congress made an announcement which could, if translated into policy, signal the end of Hong Kong’s rule of law as we know it. I really emphasise that.
China’s constitution and the Basic Law jointly form the constitutional foundation of Hong Kong, but a spokesman for the National People’s Congress Legislative Affairs Committee said:
“Whether Hong Kong’s laws are consistent with the Basic Law can only be judged and decided by the National People’s Congress’ Standing Committee. No other authority has the right to make judgments and decisions.”
The statement also condemns the judgment of the Hong Kong court as severely weakening the legally enshrined power to govern enjoyed by the Chief Executive.
That statement makes clear where power lies and who determines, in the view of China, what the rule of law means. The statement is a naked power grab by the central government from the Hong Kong judiciary and is clearly in breach of existing Hong Kong case law and the terms of the Sino-British joint declaration. The Chinese are making it clear that they get to decide what the constitution says and what the Basic Law is, not the courts of Hong Kong. I hope the Minister agrees that any attempt to strip Hong Kong’s courts of their powers of final adjudication and constitutional interpretation would severely undermine the city’s common law system.
As elsewhere in the world, Hong Kong’s politics have paused to allow breathing space for the coronavirus. In fact, looking at the graphs, Hong Kong has been handling this emergency somewhat well, and for that we should be grateful, but, as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said, under the cover of the virus leaders around the world are taking the opportunity to override law. We have even seen President Trump doing it on his border, where people are not even allowed to claim asylum but are being turned back, so the international commitments on asylum are being abused. The events of 2019 have left the rule of law in Hong Kong in a storm of unprecedented ferocity, so will the Minister say what we are going to do to ensure that human rights are upheld and that the judicial system in Hong Kong retains its integrity?
Lord Carrington (CB)
My Lords, I add my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Pendry, for the opportunity afforded by this debate to review the situation in Hong Kong. I hope he will forgive me if I do not agree with everything he said.
Happily, to a considerable extent the Government and people of Hong Kong have taken effective measures to control the spread of the coronavirus, which is evidenced by the figures showing that, out of a population of 7 million, there have been 167 cases and four deaths so far, although fears remain of a second wave due to people returning to Hong Kong from overseas trips. I do not think this is the time to criticise measures taken by Hong Kong to control the virus, as all around the world this is a new and fast-changing challenge, which is evidenced by the experiences of Governments from the UK to the European countries to the United States.
The great issue that Hong Kong and other countries face is how to contain the economic damage done by the virus and to grow the economy in a way that satisfies the aspirations of the entire population. Alongside this process, it is very important for the people of Hong Kong to concentrate on the forthcoming LegCo elections in September. On the economic front, the Government have taken many fiscal measures targeted at some of the worst affected areas of the economy. I believe that the amount that will be received by the retail sector is 30 billion Hong Kong dollars. For tourism, I gather it is 20 billion Hong Kong dollars. Tourism, which is principally from the mainland, is down 90%. In fact, this time last year, there were 200,000 visitors a day; this year, it is down to 3,000 per day. There is also a plan to distribute 10,000 Hong Kong dollars to each permanent resident, although the timing of that payment depends on proof of residence.
I am pleased to observe that a good number of owners of Hong Kong property businesses have agreed to assist in the financing of affordable housing or have provided land for housing, and at the same time China has come up with the Greater Bay scheme, which is basically an economic zone which incorporates the southern provinces, with Hong Kong and Macau, creating job opportunities. Schools have been shut since Chinese New Year, but learning continues through online devices. Courts continue to function using videoconferencing facilities. Using coronavirus to criticise the Government is, to my mind, pointless and does not help.
All sides need to move on. Those who have been protesting should now direct their attention away from street demonstrations and towards the forthcoming LegCo elections. Their success at the November district council elections should certainly encourage their efforts. At the same time, they need to rethink their five demands and be prepared to sit down and negotiate with government. The demand for the withdrawal of the extradition law has already been accomplished. Other demands need to be moderated, particularly those that affect the trials of those who committed real crimes during the riots, leading to grievous injuries.
Similarly, the Government of Hong Kong need to reflect on their own competence. They need to ensure that any illegal police behaviour is investigated thoroughly and punished. They need to reflect heavily on their leadership as any Government, whatever their nature, anywhere in the world, ultimately depend on the will of the people. That said, in any society, freedom without discipline does not work. In the case of Hong Kong, we need to acknowledge that the police are the first and only line of civic defence. Without them, disorder, or much worse, would prevail.
Turning to China, I repeat what I have said before. It is not in China’s interests to renege on the Chinese-British joint declaration and the governing principle of “one country, two systems”; it has worked well for more than 20 years, and the Chinese Government have predominantly abided by its terms. Hong Kong continues to represent an important gateway into China and is responsible, as we have heard, for 70% of inward foreign direct investment going through its territory. Chinese private companies’ debt financing in Hong Kong has more than doubled in the last five years, so its importance for China as a financial centre has in no way diminished. This is possible only because there is international confidence in the legal system; as such, it is not in China’s interests to subvert that system.
Article 3 of the joint declaration sets out the rights and freedoms to be maintained. Overwhelmingly, they have been. For instance, look at the freedom of the press. Look at “Apple Daily”—by far the most popular Chinese local newspaper, with a circulation of over 1 million—or the South China Morning Post. They are scarcely voices of the Hong Kong or Chinese Governments. Destroying the “one country, two systems” formula would lead to massive riots in Hong Kong and a humanitarian disaster on an unimaginable scale, and would ensure that Taiwan never, ever accepts this solution—scarcely a desirable outcome for China. It is firmly in China’s interests to ensure that it works, and I can see no reason why it would not be extended for a further 50 years or more. But the fact remains that Hong Kong was born into China and will remain so; hence, the Chinese policy of banning the bad-mouthing of China and its leaders is therefore understandable.
In conclusion, I ask this: following the changed circumstances resulting from coronavirus in Hong Kong, what are the British Government doing to encourage the international community, including China, to unite in convincing both the people and the Government of Hong Kong to put aside confrontation and to work together on economic reforms which provide housing and jobs? At the same time, what are they doing to encourage realistic, reform-driven manifestos for the all-important forthcoming LegCo elections?
Lord Craig of Radley (CB)
My Lords, I too welcome and thank the noble Lord, Lord Pendry, for giving us the opportunity to speak about problems facing the citizens of Hong Kong. Others have dealt with Covid-19. I will concentrate on a separate, much longer-standing issue. Responding on 8 January to the gracious Speech, I spoke about the unanswered request to Her Majesty’s Government from some veterans of the Hong Kong Military Service Corps. I will outline this issue.
Over five years ago, some 300 members of this group made requests for right of abode in the United Kingdom. The Home Office was initially dismissive, on the grounds that they were all locally enlisted and employed and so not even eligible for consideration. This assertion was inaccurate. These individuals were employed by the United Kingdom Government, serving full-time in Her Majesty’s Armed Forces and not employed by the Hong Kong Government. Their service took some of them to the United Kingdom or to jungle training in Borneo. Others served in UNFICYP in 1990-91 when they replaced UK servicemen required to take part in the first Gulf conflict. They are rightly categorised by the MoD as veterans of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces, so should benefit from the undertaking of fair treatment in the military covenant.
In January 2016, our Home Office Minister—then the noble Lord, Lord Bates—in answer to a Written Question agreed
“to undertake a thorough assessment of the request that this group are offered right of abode in the United Kingdom”.
Since that date over four years ago, in spite of a series of further written and oral requests from Members of both Houses, there has been no resolution or agreement by the Government, merely a depressing series of responses, some even just repeats in the cut-in-paste manner saying that the matter was being carefully considered and a decision would be made as soon as practicable.
In my speech on 8 January, I described this, after four years without resolution, as repetitive indecision syndrome. Since then I have tabled two Questions for Written Answer. The first, on 3 February, received yet another indecisive reply. The second, tabled on 2 March, specifically asked when the assessment—started over four years ago in January 2016—would be completed. Another non-answer, just received, said,
“we continue to actively consider representations made on behalf of those former Hong Kong Military Service Corps”.
It seems that the Home Office does not wish to say yes, but will not say no. Maybe it is fearful of a judicial review, but is such indecision really fit for purpose?
The original 300 possible applicants have now been reduced in number by deaths and by some deciding to emigrate to Canada, Australia or elsewhere. There are now just 64. I have received copies of their applications, with a request that I forward them to the Home Secretary for consideration and decision. I am happy to do so. Indeed, I have them here in this envelope, addressed to the Home Secretary. Tomorrow they should be on her desk.
It is instructive to look back to a debate in this House on 20 January 1986 on the nationality provisions of the Hong Kong Act 1985. The issue of nationality of veteran servicemen was raised by several speakers, in particular Lord MacLehose, who was Governor of Hong Kong for over 10 and a half years:
“This brings me to the case of the veterans … At the end of this long era of British rule inevitably there are some debts to be paid. The legislative councillors say that this is such a debt. I am sure that they are right. I think the question of precedent or of opening up claims from elsewhere can be greatly overstated. It is just a matter of definition, and I suspect that the numbers will be found to be small … we must bear in mind the very special arrangements that we made in this respect for Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands. If exceptions can be made for them, surely an exception can be made for these people. In this case it is the gesture and the recognition of our responsibility that is so important, and I hope the gesture can be made.” —[Official Report, 20/1/1986; col. 91.]
The Minister winding up then acknowledged the strength of feeling across the House on this issue. After outlining some perceived complexities, he said:
“We shall need to look into these in a great deal more detail before we can say whether it would be appropriate or possible to meet the ex-servicemen’s request. But … I can assure your Lordships that we shall give this the most careful consideration.”—[Official Report, 20/1/1986; col. 102.]
That similar self-serving, evasive wording is still used today, 34 years on. The Government might argue that by grouping this cohort with those employed in the Hong Kong Disciplined Services, with the chance for some to be granted British citizenship among the negotiated figure of 50,000, they discharged their obligations. Some veterans did benefit, but it was wrong to group them with Hong Kong government employees. They were uniquely members of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces. It is not fair that some benefited but others did not.
Under the military covenant, now is the time to correct this unfairness and allow the 64 members I mentioned earlier to be treated equally and fairly to right of abode. I have instanced the favourable treatment over nationality of Gurkhas who served in Her Majesty’s forces. That 1986 debate drew attention to a similar treatment of Gibraltarians and Falkland Islanders. Far from setting a precedent by granting these veterans’ requests, there seem to be several precedents already set, and the numbers are minimal. As Lord MacLehose so pointedly said, to act fairly in this would be a recognition of our national responsibility. So, will the Home Office and the Government now cure themselves of repetitive indecision syndrome, prove their fitness for purpose, and bring this decades-long issue to resolution?
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, I too thank my noble friend Lord Pendry for initiating this debate. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, emailed me quite late last night, as is his wont, and reminded me that these debates are important because, while communities may be remote, they do follow these debates, particularly through new media such as Facebook and Twitter. It is important that we have continued, despite all the constraints upon us, to raise these vital issues.
Events are changing very fast. From the time that the noble Lord initiated this debate, we have seen a lot of changes. Carrie Lam announced on Tuesday that Hong Kong will quarantine all people arriving from abroad for 14 days; those restrictions will start today, Thursday. All entrants from mainland China already have to self-isolate. She said that the majority of cases had been imported, adding that strict measures were needed. As we heard in the debate about the number of cases, of the 57 new infections over the past two weeks, only seven were local cases; there are only 155 confirmed cases in the territory, which detected its first case in January.
Although it is difficult to understand the exact success of the Hong Kong response, given the incomplete testing figures, most agree that it has been at least in part successful—a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Carrington. I agree with that assessment. Although the approach of the Hong Kong Government differs from that of the UK, it has included greater social distancing measures and the closure of schools which, as the noble Lord said, we are now facing ourselves.
It is right that the United Kingdom engages with our international partners to share information on best practice. Gordon Brown was absolutely right on Radio 4 this morning: this is a global problem that requires a global response. It is no good saying “America first”, or “India first”; it is something that we all have to respond and come up with proper responses to. There is a very good reason why we should work particularly well and closely with Hong Kong on this issue. Can the Minister detail how the Government have engaged with the Hong Kong authorities and the non-governmental organisations of Hong Kong to better understand their approach to response?
As we find ourselves entering further into this crisis, the WHO has made clear above all that the Government must “test, test, test” all suspected cases. This is not a pandemic that we can fight blindfolded. We must keep abreast of the spread of those who have been affected. Of course, there is a physical capacity issue and there will be a limit as to how many individuals can be tested, but the Prime Minister has announced further plans to increase testing and increase the capacity. Although it is not his brief, I hope that the Minister will be able to give us some indication about what those plans mean in practice in terms of who will be further tested. What is the impact of better understanding the spread of the virus and the disease?
Along with the success of the Hong Kong authorities in tackling the virus, we have heard that we have to recognise the concerns raised relating to misinformation, much of which has circulated online and led to instances of panic. Can the Minister explain what lessons have been learned by the UK Government as a result of this? Throughout the pandemic, the feeling of distrust in the Hong Kong Government has remained. While larger demonstrations have scaled down, the police continue to disperse small-scale demonstrations, with reports of disproportionate force. Here, I too pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, who has been absolutely committed to raising these abuses of human rights—however big or small they have been, he has been there and constantly pushing the Government to act. We have heard about the protesters who were pepper sprayed on 9 March. They had gathered to pay tribute to Alex Chow Tsz-lok, who died last November during the protest.
In the light of this continued crackdown, can the Minister confirm what steps the Government are taking to ensure that British national (overseas) passport holders can gain consular access in the British embassy should mistreatment of protesters continue? This is a really important point. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, mentioned up to 200,000 BNOs in Hong Kong. I have a figure of 170,000; irrespective of that, it is roughly in the same ballpark. Whatever we say their status is—the noble and gallant Lord made particular reference to this—this country has an obligation to those nationals. They are British nationals, even if they happen to be overseas. We have an absolute responsibility.
Previously, the Government claimed that the extension of the rights of BNO passport holders would contravene the joint declaration. As we have heard, they cited an immigration report by my noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith, the former Attorney-General, as proof that it would be illegal. However, as my noble friend Lord Pendry and other noble Lords have referred to, in a recent letter to both the Home Secretary and the Foreign Secretary, my noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith disputed the misrepresentation of this view and published fresh legal advice, stating that the UK Government would not
“be in breach of any obligation undertaken in the joint declaration were it to resolve to extend full right of abode to BN(O) passport holders while continuing to honour their side of the Sino-British Joint Declaration.”
I would like to hear from the Minister today whether the Government have given any consideration to extending the rights of BNO passport holders to include: working visas; or, as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said, the minor act of extending the length of time that Hong Kong students can stay in the United Kingdom after completing their studies; or, more importantly—because this is about the security of these people—offering them full right of abode in the United Kingdom.
I hope that the Minister will also respond to the long-outstanding issue raised by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, of servicemen who have served this country. We have a duty under the covenant to respond to them; I hope that he will do so today.
Of course, as noble Lords, including my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, said, we must be concerned about what appear to be further politically motivated arrests, including of the newspaper owner Jimmy Lai and the legislators referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Alton: Lee Cheuk-yan and Yeung Sum. All of them were arrested last month by the Hong Kong police under archaic public ordinance laws. Like my noble friend Lady Kennedy, I hope that the Minister can confirm that we have made the strongest possible representations to the Hong Kong authorities regarding these arrests.
The noble Lord, Lord Alton, emailed me late last night about his Written Question—to which the Minister responded yesterday, I think—on the assessment of Amnesty International’s report, Missing Truth, Missing Justice. In that response, the Minister raised the fact that the Government made their position clear on 27 February at the United Nations Human Rights Council. He said:
“A robust, credible and independent investigation into events in Hong Kong would be an important step in healing divisions and rebuilding trust that will support the process of dialogue and resolution.”
We need to know what has resulted from that support and whether the Government will continue to back the people and the elected representatives of Hong Kong.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Department for International Development (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, I join other noble Lords in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Pendry, for tabling this timely debate. As the noble Lord, Lord Collins, rightly mentioned, since the tabling of this debate, events have moved on apace, and it is right that, when we look at the challenges we face on the domestic front, we also cast our eye across the globe to see the how different parts of the world are meeting the challenge of Covid-19—the coronavirus—and the impacts of this, in the context of this debate, on the people of Hong Kong.
I totally concur with the noble Lords, Lord Collins and Lord Carrington, who mentioned specifically—I mentioned it from the Dispatch Box only yesterday—that anyone involved in any shape or form, which means globally, with the challenge we now face, and, more importantly, the lessons being learned, cannot dispute that this is a global challenge requiring global solutions. That means that we share our experiences in this respect. To pick up on a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Collins, on engagement with authorities and NGOs on this, as he will already be aware, we are engaging directly on an international front—I have been directly involved with such discussions—and, as I mentioned yesterday, we have already allocated a specific package of £241 million aid funding, which we are providing through various UN agencies as well as through the IMF. We have allocated a further £65 million on research, because this is a battle against time: we need to find an early solution to this crisis.
As the noble Lord, Lord Collins, noted, as of 19 March, the number of cases in Hong Kong has been quite limited, thankfully, because of actions taken. The latest statistics I have are that as of that date, there have been 192 confirmed cases of Covid-19 in Hong Kong, including a British citizen who had recently visited Japan and London—again, that reinforces Carrie Lam’s point that some cases of coronavirus have occurred due to people arriving in Hong Kong. As the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, noted, four people have died, sadly, but also importantly, in this global challenge, 95 people have now recovered from that virus in Hong Kong.
I am sure that I speak for everyone in your Lordships’ House when I offer our heartfelt sympathies, and those of the whole UK Government, to all those who have been affected, in Hong Kong and elsewhere. We fully appreciate the challenges facing the Hong Kong Government and others across the world—particularly in Italy, South Korea, Iran and China—who are dealing with significant numbers of cases. We are also facing the task here of containing and delaying the spread of the virus. The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, mentioned the challenge. I know that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has spoken directly with the Chinese President, again reiterating our support for China and the sharing of best experience as we collectively face the challenge of Covid-19.
All Governments are having to make careful choices, as we are, about how to respond: weighing up the task of containing the spread of the virus against the social and economic disruption resulting from the measures taken to respond. The sustainability of those responses is also critical. If I may personalise some of the challenges, as a father of three, with my wife, only yesterday, after the decision taken by the Government, the prospect of having three children home-schooled for a number of months posed one’s own domestic challenge; the reality is very much at home. I assure all noble Lords that Her Majesty’s Government are clear that all the responses being taken are critical—and, yes, they should be well informed by the views of experts and led by the science. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has prioritised this approach in close co-ordination with international partners, including through the World Health Organization.
Specifically on Hong Kong, the number of new cases remains relatively low, as I said, with 25 new cases yesterday—although I add the cautionary note that that was the highest single daily increase so far. As several noble Lords mentioned, including the noble Lord, Lord Pendry, in his opening remarks, the Hong Kong Government have taken a series of measures to contain the spread of the virus. These have been backed up by a strong societal response conditioned by personal experiences of the SARS epidemic in 2002 and 2003.
After the first confirmed case in late January, over the course of February and March the Hong Kong Government introduced a number of significant measures, including: the suspension or scaling back of flights, trains, ferries and buses between Hong Kong and mainland China; the closure of most border crossings with mainland China; and from 19 March—as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, specifically mentioned—a compulsory 14-day quarantine for all travellers entering Hong Kong. This includes travellers into Hong Kong from the United Kingdom. For Hong Kong residents, including foreign nationals who live in Hong Kong, this quarantine can take place at home. For non-Hong Kong residents, such as tourists and business visitors, this will be in a Hong Kong government quarantine centre. The measures also include the prevention of entry of all non-Hong Kong residents who had been in Hubei province in mainland China or in South Korea in the previous 14 days. Individuals will also be expected to activate sharing of their real-time location with the Hong Kong Government as part of the requirement to report their location.
The noble Lord, Lord Pendry, mentioned face masks in his opening remarks. The Hong Kong Government have acknowledged public concern over the shortage in the supply of masks. I understand that they are working to increase the supply by sourcing masks globally, increasing local production and liaising with relevant authorities in mainland China to facilitate the swift delivery to Hong Kong of masks manufactured there. I have noticed updates on various news programmes, and the Chinese authorities are now shifting masks to other parts of the world as they look to contain their own outbreak.
The UK’s ability to replenish stocks of personal protective equipment, which includes fluid-repellent surgical masks, is severely constrained due to the significant increase in global demand. However, the UK Government support a collaborative approach to tackling the global challenge presented by Covid-19. The Department of Health and Social Care has strong, established links with key partners and countries to co-ordinate the response to Covid-19 across all public health issues.
The robust measures taken by the Hong Kong Government to respond to Covid-19 have inevitably had an impact on the Hong Kong economy, which was already in recession before the outbreak, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Carrington. The tourism and retail sectors have been hit particularly hard. In this regard, the Hong Kong Government have announced an anti-epidemic fund worth 30 billion Hong Kong dollars to support businesses and safeguard jobs. The Hong Kong Government’s response demonstrates just how seriously they have taken the outbreak. It demonstrates that Hong Kong shares one of the key challenges faced by all jurisdictions.
The noble Lords, Lord Collins and Lord Carrington, asked specifically about UK action. The UK is of course closely monitoring the Covid-19 outbreak in Hong Kong. Our consulate-general is in frequent contact with the Government on their response. It is of course vital for the wider management of the outbreak that the UK and Hong Kong share our experiences and, to quote both noble Lords, work together. I assure noble Lords that we stand together with international partners to support Hong Kong as we deal with this global public health emergency. Our consulate-general continues to provide consular assistance to British nationals in Hong Kong who request and require it.
I turn specifically now to BNOs, raised by several noble Lords. The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, raised specific issues relating to veterans in this respect as well. Let me say from the outset that the obligations of the UK Government towards Hong Kong residents with British national (overseas) status is something we take very seriously. As noble Lords will recall, British national (overseas) status was created in 1985 for people in Hong Kong who would lose their British dependent territory citizenship in 1997 when sovereignty was handed to China. As of February 2020, there were 349,881 British national (overseas) passport holders in Hong Kong, out of an estimated 2.9 million people eligible for such status. Individuals with this status are entitled to British consular assistance in third countries.
The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked specifically about consular assistance in Hong Kong for people with this status. As he may know—I am sure he is aware of this point, which has been raised before—there is no basis under the joint declaration, including in its memorandums, to provide such consular assistance to BNOs in Hong Kong itself. As my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has said, the British national (overseas) status was part of the delicate balance and negotiations conducted and concluded at the time of the joint declaration. Full and continued respect for the provisions in the joint declaration are crucial to the future stability and prosperity of Hong Kong and to the rights, freedoms and autonomy of its people.
Several noble Lords including the noble Lord, Lord Alton, asked about Her Majesty’s Government’s position. As my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary made clear in the other place towards the end of last year, we are not at this stage seeking to alter any one part of the package, including the consular status of British nationals (overseas).
The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, asked about the 64 members of the Hong Kong police who have the right of abode in the UK. Under the British nationality selection scheme, which was introduced in 1990 and operated until 1 July 1997, a limited number of people were able to register as British citizens. I assure noble Lords that I will follow this up with the Home Office by letter, so that it is a matter of formal record that the issue has been raised again. I am aware that the Home Office is looking at this. I remember from my time there that it was being examined, but I will, as I say, formally write to my noble friend the Minister of State at the Home Office to see how we can progress the matter further and I will then respond accordingly to the noble and gallant Lord.
The noble Lords, Lord Pendry and Lord Alton, rightly talked about recent arrests in Hong Kong. The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, also raised this important issue. As noble Lords will know, I am acutely aware of the challenges not only in Hong Kong but in mainland China on human rights issues, whether we are talking about media freedom, freedom of religion or belief, or the general suppression of rights. Several noble Lords asked about raising this issue in international fora. During my last travels prior to the current challenges that we all now face, I specifically mentioned in the UK statement to the Human Rights Council the broader issue relating to the Uighur community. I assure noble Lords that this remains a personal priority, which I continue to take forward.
On the arrests of Jimmy Lai, Lee Cheuk-yan and Yeung Sum, we are following their cases closely. We are asking that due process be followed and that justice be applied fairly and transparently. We will continue to monitor the situation closely.
The noble Lord, Lord Alton, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Falkner and Lady Kennedy, rightly spoke about the priority of media freedom. That is a priority campaign for Her Majesty’s Government, and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, in particular, for her work on the legal panel. I assure all noble Lords, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Alton, that we have consistently raised our concern about media freedoms in China. I agree with him that the Chinese Government’s announcement that they will prevent certain American journalists from working in China further restricts transparency at a particularly important time. The suggestion by the Chinese MFA that the measure may apply in Hong Kong is deeply concerning. As the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, said, the Sino-British joint declaration is clear. It sets out that immigration decisions are the sole responsibility of the Hong Kong special administrative region. She is right that freedom of the press is guaranteed. It is imperative that these rights and freedoms are fully respected. We take any allegations of the arrest and intimidation of journalists in Hong Kong extremely seriously, and we expect the Hong Kong authorities to abide by international human rights laws and practices.
Several noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, mentioned the importance of what we saw in Hong Kong prior to the Covid-19 outbreak. We continue to condemn any violence and make it clear that all protests should be policed and conducted within the law and that authorities should avoid actions that could inflame tensions. As the noble Baroness acknowledged, we have called specifically for a robust independent investigation into these events and will continue to do so.
The noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, asked about raising these issues with the Chinese authorities. I assure her that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and others in the Government regularly raise our concerns about rights and freedoms with the Chinese Foreign Minister, the Hong Kong Chief Executive and the ambassador to the Court of St James. I assure noble Lords that the leadership in China and Hong Kong are in no doubt about the strength of UK concern over the current situation.
The noble Lord, Lord Alton, asked a specific question about Home Office collaboration with Chinese authorities on facial recognition technology. I can inform him that the funding of this project was allocated by the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council, a publicly funded arm’s-length body that has formed part of UK Research and Innovation since April 2018. We ourselves as the Government are not involved in the actual funding decisions that this body makes, but I note the points that the noble Lord has raised on this issue.
The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, raised the issue of the independence of the judiciary and the rule of law. The rule of law and the independence of the judiciary are indeed foundations on which Hong Kong’s success and prosperity have been built. Indeed, up until recent events prior to Covid-19, “one country, two systems” had worked quite robustly and well. It is our view that it should be continue to be the basis of how Hong Kong can truly prosper and continue to progress and move forward.
I would like to conclude on the specific issue of Covid-19. The Hong Kong Government have taken what we believe are a number of robust measures—indeed, a number of noble Lords acknowledged that in their contributions—and that has resulted in proactive action. I think there is a lesson to be learned there. We have had other discussions in your Lordships’ House about lessons being learned, whether from the challenges that AIDS posed or indeed any crisis. The SARS crisis in that part of the world has resulted in people really acting and checking their own behaviour, and I think there are lessons to be learned there for all of us.
I assure noble Lords that we are in close and frequent contact with the Hong Kong Government. I give reassurance, again, that we stand ready to support them and share expertise to address the complex and global threat of Covid-19. On the wider issues that noble Lords have mentioned, such as media freedom, human rights and indeed the challenges that we have seen over the last 12 months or so in Hong Kong prior to Covid-19, I assure them that those things will remain very much a priority for Her Majesty’s Government.
Lord Pendry
My Lords, I began my remarks by asking the House to understand why the Motion put down some weeks ago was not necessarily what was going to be debated, and I was right. Because things that happen by the day in Hong Kong are so different from the day before, it was right that we had a wide-ranging debate on this issue. I thank everyone for taking part in it. I thank the Minister, with one exception: he did not address the question of the problems in our universities, which I have raised before. I would like him to reflect on what was said in this debate.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I apologise to the noble Lord; I think that was one of the many scribbles that I made. If he can provide me with specifics on that question, I will be very happy to take it up internally within the Government to make sure that it is raised with the appropriate university.
Lord Pendry
I thank the Minister for that. I wish to pick out one particular contribution, which is that of the noble Lord, Lord Alton. I am for ever grateful to him for taking part in debates that I am in because I learn so much from what he says, and I have done again today. The people of Hong Kong, who listen to these debates, are grateful for the interest that we show in their deliberations and, in many cases, their plights. Let us hope that we have more informed debates about that very important part of our history. I conclude with these few words: let us keep up our interest in that former colony of ours.
European Union Aviation Safety Agency
Lord Whitty
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment led to their decision not to participate in the European Union Aviation Safety Agency; and what plans they have to address any gap in regulatory oversight which results from that decision.
Lord Whitty (Lab)
My Lords, before I start my remarks, let me say that I regret the absence of the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, as Minister. I am sure that I speak for the whole House, such as it is at present, in sending her our best wishes. We hope to see her back here very soon.
This Motion relates to problems for the airlines and the aerospace industry. As noble Lords will know, the airline sector has manifold problems at the moment, but this is one that the Government can do something about. When the UK left the EU at the end of January, we instantly left not only the political and judicial structures—the Commission, the European Council, the Parliament and the European Court of Justice—but nearly 40 EU executive agencies that deal with day-to-day issues relating to sectors of our society and industries.
I took an interest in this dimension during the passage of the now countless withdrawal Bills over the past three years. I frequently asked different Ministers what future arrangements the Government envisaged for our relationship with each of the agencies. In general terms, the reply was that we would be leaving, full stop. The view from the EU side was not much more helpful. The EU made it clear that even for the duration of the transition period, which we are now in, the UK is no longer a decision-making member of the boards of these agencies, even though for this period, which lasts until the end of this year, we must be fully compliant with their rules and procedures.
One of the most important of these agencies is the European Aviation Safety Agency—EASA. It has been vital for the testing and certification of aircraft, aircraft parts and aerospace manufacturing processes, and for the certification, safety and flight-time rules for pilots and engineers. The enforcement of these airworthiness standards is vital across Europe. Moreover, EASA has been of global significance: together with the US Federal Aviation Administration, it has set global aviation standards. The reality is that the UK has been a key influence within EASA, through the Government and the CAA. But beyond the end of this year, we will be treated as a third country in this context. This is of vital interest to British-located aerospace manufacturing and British-based airlines and their workforces. Both sectors not only operate and sell across Europe but have significant European ownership; think of Airbus, or IAG’s ownership of British Airways. They also have a very substantial pan-European supply chain, in which many British SMEs are heavily involved.
It has always been clear that, post Brexit, the UK would have to negotiate a new aviation relationship with Europe, specifically regarding aviation safety. However, there were a number of options. EASA includes certain third countries such as Switzerland, Norway and Iceland effectively as full members. We could have sought a form of associate membership, as advocated by ADS Manufacturing, or observer status, like Ukraine, Moldova and other ex-Soviet countries. We could have sought a formal joint working arrangement between EASA and the CAA, which would have avoided duplication and the divergence of standards.
Until recently, it has been unclear which road the Government would take. However, a couple of weeks ago, the Secretary of State for Transport, Grant Shapps, made it clear that there would be no halfway house. The CAA would in effect take over all responsibility for regulation and enforcement and we would be able to set our own standards, which might well diverge from EASA standards. This complete break has caused considerable alarm among manufacturers, airlines and unions. In the union context, I declare my vice-presidency of BALFA, whose pilot members are deeply concerned, and also my membership of GMB, which has members involved in both sectors. This concern unites all parts of the industries.
If the CAA has to replicate the role of EASA for the UK, but nevertheless its standards remain the same, then for the industry there will be substantial issues of administrative duplication, costs and delay, as it will have to go through dual processes. If, as the Government threaten, standards diverge, then there is a much bigger problem of aircraft, components and personnel being legal at one end of a European flight but not at the other. There are also questions about whether the resources and capabilities of the CAA to take on all these responsibilities in a purely UK structure of standards and enforcement will be provided and funded by the Government.
There is a history to this. When Mrs May was Prime Minister, in two of her most important speeches, in 2018 and 2019, she identified EASA as being one of only three EU agencies she considered we would need to continue to be involved in and to operate on a level playing field. Incidentally, the others were the medicines agency and the chemical agency, in both of which there are parallel problems, where questions should be asked and answered by the Government.
It is not clear what has changed—apart from the change of personnel in the top reaches of the Government—except that the new regime is simply taking an absolutist line, at least publicly. The ostensible reason for this is that, ultimately, EASA decisions are appealable to the European Court of Justice, but in practice that has hardly ever happened.
There is still hope for a more constructive approach. In the new negotiations on future relations, two of the early areas for seeking agreement proposed by the EU were aviation and aviation safety—some sort of bilateral air safety agreements. It is possible, despite Mr Schapps’s apparent negative stand, that there is still a sensible bilateral agreement to be had by both sides on relations with EASA, but at the moment that is not clear to anyone. I hope that the Minister today will be able to reassure the House and the aviation sectors that a constructive arrangement is being sought. If it is not forthcoming, I have to tell him that there will be grave concerns in all parts of the aviation industry.
Lord Balfe (Con)
My Lords, I reflect the concerns of our side of the House and I hope that my noble friend Lady Vere is very soon back with us and in good health. I too declare my interest, as president of BALPA, the airline pilots’ association.
We are dealing with one of the many unfortunate consequences of the decision to leave the European Union. We are in limbo at the moment because we can no longer take part in any decision-making of the European Aviation Safety Agency, but its regulations continue to apply to us. If you look at its website, you see that we are no longer a member, and we are no longer represented on its board, but that it is accepting applications for a variety of certificates. However, the instructions state:
“Depending on the outcome of the current negotiations on future partnership between the EU and the UK, your certificate may be sent to you by email at the end of the transition period.”
It then goes on:
“This fee is non-refundable, regardless of the outcome of the Brexit negotiations”.
Even now we are costing people and the industry money which could be better spent elsewhere.
I wonder to what extent the whole objection is because the European Aviation Safety Agency, in its own words, is
“a body governed by European public law”?
In other words, it is subject—although, as the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said, it very rarely if ever happens—to the ECJ and European law. Are we withdrawing because of the obsession with getting away from anything to do with Europe?
Where are we going to end up? The EFTA countries are already members with non-voting members on the board. Switzerland has a special relationship, while a large number of other countries, as can been seen on the website, have some form of liaison or other. When these powers come back to the CAA, will a mechanism be in force for us to consult anyone at all before we take decisions? Will there be any communality or platform where information can be exchanged, and what value will our recommendations have? We have the US system and we have the European one. What will be the outcome, for instance, of the recent investigations at Boeing? Will anyone listen to what the CAA has to say unless it is identical to what is being said by the European and United States agencies? Are we taking our skills away from Europe but not actually positioning them anywhere where they could be of use?
I want also to ask the Minister about the cost-benefit analysis of this. No doubt we will save some money by not being a member of the EASA, but we will also spend a considerable amount when we repatriate the powers back to the UK and set up an institution to do the same job. Has he any figures showing how much this will cost or what we will gain? I suggest that it will be a cost, but I could be wrong.
I alluded to the observers. Will we get any sort of structure that brings in an international dimension or will we just go along on our own? Moreover, we need to know if the CAA will apply different criteria from its certification specifications. Will they be the same or are we going to set out different ones? I ask that because at the moment it looks like, through our new agency, we will have to certify each new aircraft, each new aircraft engine and each new component part of an aircraft to certify its airworthiness and so on.
I am surprised because the whole of the industry is united in believing that our interests would be best served by remaining within this system. This is not a case where there is any demand to be outside it. As far as I can see, it is purely something that has come up as a by-product of the general approach. I would hope, therefore, that even at this late stage, the Government can look again at whether we actually need this divergence from a European standard which has worked well, to a standard that to put it mildly, is untested and will have to be developed over a good many years. I realise that the Minister may not be able to answer fully all these questions, particularly as he is standing in at the last minute, but I hope that when he replies he will agree to write to those noble Lords who are here today with the answers to my questions.
Lord Davies of Gower (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for tabling this Question because it is incredibly important. I declare an interest as co-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on General Aviation, as a private pilot and as an aircraft owner/operator. Aviation is a globally connected industry at all levels. It is also a heavily regulated industry which is greatly affected by what individual Governments decide. It is clearly advantageous for the industry, which is already facing unprecedented challenges this year, if Governments can work together as much as possible to ensure equivalence in regulations and make things simple for businesses.
That is a general point. More specifically, the reality of our geography means that we must work very closely with both the EASA and the FAA to facilitate the prosperity of our airlines and air cargo operators in the future.
The UK is home to a number of world-leading airlines and many more big brands depend on us as a transatlantic hub. Maintaining this position in the global travel market must be a priority for the Government in their Brexit negotiations. I am sure that no noble Lord would be happy if they suddenly found themselves having to connect through Frankfurt on their next trip to the United States.
That said, I will focus my comments on how this change will impact the UK’s very important general aviation sector, which contributes more than £3 billion to our economy. General aviation is the lifeblood of the commercial aviation sector. Small clubs train the pilots and engineers of the future and local airfields provide the easy access entry point that inspires people into lifelong careers in the aviation industry. Yet general aviation is probably the aviation sector most reliant on EASA regulations, since its operations tend to be more localised to the European continent.
EASA has made it clear in recent weeks that it is determined not to make things easy for the UK by removing the exemptions we once held on several GA activities. One particularly damaging change is that UK national private pilot licence holders—people who have private pilot licences just for operating in the UK airspace and within visual rules—will be able to fly an aeroplane with an EASA certificate of airworthiness from 8 April, effectively meaning that many pilots will be prevented from flying until after the transition period. However, there have been more changes. Take the refusal to renew the exemption on distance from cloud minima within class D airspace, which is a safety issue, since our prevailing weather in the UK includes frequent low cloud bases. In fairness, the Department for Transport wanted to renew the measure, but its application was rejected by EASA for no reason other than rules tidying.
My point is that it is clear from these measures that this divorce is not one-sided and that the UK Government should not shoulder all the blame for this split. That said, the new situation of uncertainty about a life after EASA is unsettling for the small businesses of the GA industry. The Government must be on hand to provide clear and concrete answers about regulation changes so that businesses have time to plan. Furthermore, the Government must ensure that the transition occurs as quickly and painlessly as possible to a UK-based system. This means that pilot licences must be validated in a timely manner and that all current EASA-certified aircraft must receive an equivalent UK certification in good time.
I will say a bit about CAA resources. To facilitate the smooth transition, it is critical that the CAA is provided with increased resources, especially staff, to manage its newfound responsibilities. EASA currently has hundreds of British employees working across many different fields. The Government should look at ways to bring these people back so that we can use their expertise to make sure that the newly independent CAA gets off to a strong footing.
I will highlight the particular problems faced by flying schools in this process. Schools in the UK have students at various stages of training towards commercial licences, which can take years. These students will now be unsure whether this training will be valid or useful when they come to the end of it. The businesses themselves are concerned that student numbers will drop dramatically, since perspective candidates will get more value out of completing a licence registered in an EU country, compared with a purely UK-based licence. I therefore contend that the Government must act urgently in the wake of a split with EASA to prevent an exodus of flight training from the UK. By the way, any such measures should be accompanied by a reduction of the taxes on flight training to make the UK’s industry more competitive globally and to off-set any disruption potentially caused by a split with EASA.
The UK must recognise, as it takes back control of its aviation regulation, that global integration is advantageous for the industry. I therefore implore the Government to work with the European authorities now to agree a system of regulatory equivalence on certification, maintenance and licensing. Equivalence on certification would streamline the process for GA manufacturers, meaning that they would not have to go through bothersome processes to certify separately in the UK and Europe. This would encourage manufacturers of new, safer and greener aircraft designs not to bypass Britain in their investment plans. Equivalence on maintenance would make aircraft and the engineers who service them more interchangeable between the UK and our neighbours, benefiting the market on both sides of the channel.
Lastly, we need equivalence in licensing, allowing pilots, both commercial and private, to maintain European privileges through a paperwork exercise rather than retraining. This is similar to the arrangement EASA enjoys currently with the FAA.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for putting down this important Question and welcome the Minister to his new role. I hope he will take it in the right way when I say that I hope it is only temporary and that the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, will be back soon.
In the Government’s framework document for the UK-EU partnership, published in June 2018, the section on transport has this to say:
“We seek a comprehensive agreement on air transport, providing continuity of services and opportunities, supporting growth and innovation in the future.”
On EASA specifically, it says that participation would mean:
“Regulatory burdens for businesses would be minimised across Europe, supporting continuous improved safety outcomes for all. We would continue to provide our technical expertise.”
It goes on to say:
“The Commission has said that the UK will not have an automatic membership, but there is an established legal mechanism for third country EASA participation.”
So far, so logical, and strongly supported by the industry and, at the time, by the CAA. Wind forward to 6 March this year and reports suddenly appear in trade journals in the US that the Secretary of State has announced to them—not to Parliament or to the industry in the UK, but in the US—that the UK will be leaving EASA. On 9 March, I was at an aviation-related event attended by hundreds of senior industry representatives. Their anger was palpable: “A huge own goal” and “You do not negotiate with people’s safety” are two of the comments that stick in my mind.
Ironically, the Secretary of State was the keynote speaker. He came to the stage to thin applause. He chose not to refer to the elephant in the room, omitting to mention the whole topic of EASA. He left the stage to even thinner applause. On 12 March, the Secretary of State finally addressed the issue in the Commons in answer to a Question. He stated that EASA membership was incompatible with the Government’s red lines on the ECJ.
The aviation industry wants a number of questions answered. Why can the UK not follow the Swiss precedent and seek associate membership, which would allow the UK to continue to influence regulations? Instead of ECJ competence, there would be a joint EU-UK committee to resolve disputes. Do the Government appreciate that EASA membership is the most cost-effective and practical way to improve aviation safety? Safety is at the forefront of the travelling public’s mind. Have the Government made any assessment of the ability of the CAA—within the timescale of before the end of this year, which is very tight—to hire and train staff to issue licences and approvals once the UK becomes a third country? It is estimated that this process will take five to 10 years to fully implement, at a cost of up to £40 million a year, compared with an annual cost of £1 million to £4 million for EASA membership. By the way, EASA has a lot of British employees working abroad, and the word so far is that they are not falling over themselves to come back home.
Where does the demand to leave EASA come from? The only section of the industry which seems to think it a good idea consists of those involved with small-scale private aviation, who venture little outside the UK. The vast majority of those involved in aviation recognise that this is not a “little island” activity. It requires an international perspective, almost by definition.
Have the Government considered the impact on those involved in pilot training, especially commercial flight training? In order to be able to continue to train pilots for European airlines, such as easyJet and Ryanair, they will need to re-register the whole of their operation and individual instructor licences with an EU country.
What discussions have the Government had with industry representatives about this decision? I mean not just representatives from ADS—a big organisation which represents over 1,000 firms—but with the big individual manufacturers and airlines, and specifically with the thousands of SMEs in the supply chain? This will hit areas outside London hardest of all, since 90% of aerospace jobs are located outside the prosperous south-east of England.
The Secretary of State made his announcement on 6 March; his timing was spectacularly bad. At that event on 9 March, people were referring to hitting an industry when it was already down, as Flybe had already failed and the impact of coronavirus was already being felt throughout the sector. But I do not think anyone there realised how rapidly and drastically things would escalate. They need help, not additional hurdles. Of course people will fly again and companies will rebuild, but some of them, particularly SMEs, will fail entirely.
Even in good times, the decision to leave EASA was a typical example of ideology outbidding common sense. I hope that the events of the last two weeks have led the Government to reconsider and that, when he replies to this debate, the Minister can reassure us that this latest example of Brexiteer bravado is being rapidly reconsidered.
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Whitty for creating this debate. I too am sad to see that the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, is not in her place and I hope that the Minister will pass on the good wishes of the whole House. I am incredibly sympathetic to the Minister. He does not have to answer anything, frankly, because he is going to have to write a letter anyway. I am going to speak for nine minutes because that is what the rules say—thank you very much, Patrick. I spent 22 years in the civil aviation industry, and for nine of them I flew jet transports. I was a shop steward in the famous union BALPA, which has already been referred to. I am also a remainer, but I have to make the point that this has nothing to do with that fact; it is about sheer common sense and how to run this industry.
I would like briefly to put the debate into perspective. Deciding whether to build a washing machine to the same standard as Europe’s, so that you can sell it in Europe, is a business decision. The whole of the European market works after having created that market. Aviation is different. I think it was in 1947 that aviation created ICAO, the International Civil Aviation Organization, and it did so because it realised that civil aviation was about flying bombs over other people’s territory. It is entirely different from typical rules of trade. It is about letting 747s that are built in the US, flown by all the pilots in the world and maintained to standards all over the world, fly over London while we, as a nation—a sovereign part of ICAO—have confidence that they are not going to fall out of the sky on to this building.
That is why it is so important that this structure is adhered to. In the initial ICAO days, we were a big aviation power and had a lot of might. We had things called the British civil airworthiness regulations. In the late 1960s and early 1970s, they eventually morphed into the CAA, which morphed into EASA and the FAA. EASA and the FAA between them have done a great job for many decades. Their reputations are deeply stained—almost disgustingly stained—by the 737 MAX tragedies; they failed there. But they are so dominant that every major manufacturer of jet transports will build its aeroplanes to be certificated by EASA and the FAA. Realistically, there are only two major manufacturers: Airbus and Boeing.
In many ways, the level of certification, testing and so on is beyond the minds of most people. Aeroplanes fly through the air nice and gently most of the time, but they are manufactured to standards that allow them to go through very rough air, to be handled in various manoeuvres and to crash. Quite a big chunk of the regulations is about what happens to aeroplanes when they crash; internal fittings must not fly away and be an additional hazard and so on. There is absolutely detailed certification and testing.
Does this absurd declaration by the Secretary of State mean that the CAA will genuinely certificate aircraft and their components? He has to remember that it is down to the last bolt, fastener and tyre; it is that detailed. If you look back to the days when we were in competition with the FAA and take something like the 747, the CAA of the day demanded that British test pilots fly that aeroplane to the very edge of the envelope to try to stall it, because the requirements of the British standards were such that it should be unambiguously obvious to the pilot that this aeroplane was going too slowly. They did that. Can you imagine today the idea of generating the skills necessary to do this testing and to certificate the testing that manufacturers do? Can you imagine someone sitting and watching the tests to create the certification? It will not happen. One way or another, we will have to accept the testing and standards of EASA and the FAA; they are dominant.
If, as happened in the late 1960s, the British come up with an added little bit—in those days, when we were neurotic about stalling, things called stick pushers were invented—the manufacturers would be deeply reluctant to do it, because they would have to take that modification back to the original certificating authority to prove to it that it does not actually reduce the safety. This is exactly what happened with the 737 MAX. The aeroplane had an aerodynamic characteristic that the FAA found unacceptable. A fix had to then be bolted on, which has not worked and has killed people.
It is inconceivable—unless the Minister wants to assure me otherwise; I suggest he writes a letter and does not do it now—that the CAA will develop the skills and resources to genuinely certificate aeroplanes, engines and their parts. The skills, training and involvement necessary to do so would be at enormous cost. It is impossible to believe that this decision is anything other than pure doctrine.
Going back to refrigerators, this does not matter there. If we demand refrigerators made a bit differently from European ones, it would be a daft thing to do but, nevertheless, it would not matter. Here, it matters. At the end of the day, the maintenance of aeroplanes and their crews must be done to an internationally accepted standard.
Two days ago, we heard a financial Statement. I am delighted that the highly doctrinal Government threw doctrine out of the window and are spending money like a one-armed paper hanger to solve the crisis we face. I wish that the Department for Transport would take some of that positive pragmatism and recognise in one form or another a close relationship with EASA that would allow us to certificate all the things that matter in creating a civil aviation operation and that was acceptable to ICAO’s standards. I wish the department would create a situation in aviation similar to what we have enjoyed in Europe, where we were one of the most influential countries in developing new standards and ensuring that those standards were achieved. I hope that the Minister will convey to the Secretary of State that this should be reviewed completely and judged not from a doctrinal approach but a pragmatic one, which would be cost efficient and overwhelming efficient and effective on safety.
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for instigating this debate and I thank the small but select group of noble Lords who took part in it. I thank all noble Lords who kindly expressed their good wishes to my noble friend Lady Vere of Norbiton. She is indeed indomitable, as they will know, and I am sure that she will be back in her place soon. As her co-pilot on this occasion, I will do my best to answer the points that have been made but I will be happy to consult Hansard afterwards and write on any further points, particularly points of detail that I am unable to cover today.
The Government have been clear that our future relationship with the European Union must reflect the fact that we will regain our legal and economic independence on 1 January 2021. Being a member of the European Aviation Safety Agency is not compatible with that, as it would require that we continue to apply EU aviation safety laws with the associated jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the European Union, which we cannot accept.
The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned various other options, including the Swiss option. These would require the UK to continue to apply EU law, which crosses our red lines. The noble Lord also alluded to the fact that previous deals were available; I would gently point out that neither his party nor that of the noble Baroness chose to avail themselves of them. We want a future aviation relationship with the EU based on friendly co-operation between sovereign equals. The EU’s negotiating mandate does not allow for the UK’s participation in EASA, but it does set out its ambition to agree co-operative aviation safety arrangements with the UK.
We are seeking two separate aviation agreements based on precedent. We want to agree a bilateral aviation safety agreement with the EU. This will facilitate the recognition of aviation safety standards, maintain high safety outcomes and enable continued regulatory co-operation between the UK and the EU. We are also seeking to agree with the European Union a comprehensive air transport agreement that includes provisions on market access for air services, close co-operation on aviation security and collaboration on air traffic management.
The negotiation of these two agreements will enable UK and EU passengers to benefit from high levels of connectivity, choice and value for money, and will help to provide operational and commercial flexibility to UK and EU industry. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, was right to point out the interconnected nature of many companies in this sector. The comprehensive air transport agreement will also facilitate the maintenance of high aviation security standards, both in Europe and internationally, and will protect the continued interoperability of UK and EU airspace.
The UK’s Civil Aviation Authority currently oversees most aspects of civil aviation safety in the UK. After the transition period, the CAA will take on some additional functions from EASA and will continue to ensure that the UK has world-leading safety standards. The CAA has been preparing for the possibility of leaving the EASA system since the EU referendum in 2016, including recruiting and training new staff across the organisation.
It is important to note that, unlike on participation in EASA, both the UK and EU are willing to negotiate regulatory co-operation on aviation safety. This increases the likelihood of concluding aviation safety negotiations before the end of this year and providing some certainty to industry. Given that the EU and UK will have the same regulatory regime at the end of the transition period, it should be possible to agree a bilateral safety agreement that minimises regulatory burdens and removes the need for duplication of technical assessments in certification processes.
My noble friend Lord Balfe asked about divergence. It will be possible, but the UK is not seeking to diverge from common safety rules unnecessarily and will only do so where it makes sense for UK industry. Outside of the EASA system, the UK will have the autonomy to regulate in a proportionate manner that effectively meets the needs of industry. We are committed to agreeing these future arrangements for aviation by the end of this calendar year.
As noble Lords know, EASA, as an agency of the European Union, is responsible for drawing up safety rules and directly overseeing safety of some aspects of the aviation system. Its remit includes the design of aircraft and parts, manufacturing, aircraft operations, licensing of aviation personnel and oversight of training organisations. The aviation authorities of individual member states remain responsible for applying many of these rules. For example, they license pilots, issue certificates of airworthiness for individual aircraft and approve most organisations based in their territory. EASA itself undertakes three main areas of work: first, advising the EU on the updating of safety regulations that apply to all member states; secondly, ensuring that the rules are correctly and consistently applied across the EU and participating states; and, thirdly, issuing some certificates and licences in specific areas—for instance, certificates for the approval of design of aircraft parts or for the approval of design organisations.
Meanwhile, the Civil Aviation Authority undertakes most aspects of civil aviation safety oversight here in the UK. Any certificates or approvals that it currently issues in accordance with EU legislation are legally valid throughout the EASA system. For example, the CAA currently issues licences to pilots and engineers, certifies the airworthiness of individual aircraft and approves production, maintenance and flight training organisations based in the UK. After the transition period, much of the CAA’s work will continue as today, but it will also take on some additional functions from EASA. These include the approval of organisations designing products such as engines and propellers, the type certification of products—that is, approving the design of types of aircraft and component parts by issuing a type certificate—and responsibility for approving organisations based in third countries, including EU states, that supply services to the UK industry.
Under the EASA system most certificates, licences and approvals are issued by an individual member state’s aviation authorities. This means that the CAA already has the capability to provide a high-quality safety oversight regime. Further, the CAA is currently working on plans to develop its capability to meet its additional obligations and will continue to refine these plans over the coming months. It is also implementing plans to take over the responsibilities of EASA. This includes ensuring that it has the correct resources and level of staffing in place. In line with the user charges principle, the majority of the CAA’s costs are, and will continue to be, funded largely through charges on industry. However, the negotiation of a bilateral aviation safety agreement aims to minimise costs and burdens for industry.
The primary area where EASA performs certification functions for member states is with regard to aircraft design. The CAA is actively rebuilding its capabilities to undertake this work with additional resources and training.
As part of the no-deal contingency preparations, the CAA had previously engaged extensively with the UK industry to inform it of activities that would be necessary to prepare for a future where the UK was outside the EASA system. That work continues today, with regular updates to information on the CAA’s own dedicated EU exit site. For example, the CAA has already supported many businesses and individuals in securing the permissions that they would need to operate in Europe outside EASA systems—for instance, by supporting thousands of UK pilot licence holders and hundreds of UK maintenance engineer licence holders in transferring their licences to other national aviation authorities.
Provisions in the EU withdrawal Act mean that approvals, certificates and licences issued before 1 January 2021 will remain valid in UK law for a period of two years after the transition period ends. This includes those issued by EASA and other member states. Therefore the CAA will not be required to fulfil a responsibility to approve and oversee a large number of European-based organisations until January 2023. This has reduced the amount of additional capacity that the CAA has had to develop in the short term. If a bilateral safety agreement is agreed before that point, as expected, it may not need to develop that additional capacity.
My noble friend Lord Balfe asked about costs and benefits, and how it might be helpful to talk about how a bilateral safety agreement can help the industry. In short, a bilateral safety agreement provides for technical co-operation between national civil aviation authorities. It can help to reduce the duplication of activity and aim for the mutual acceptance of certificates and approvals. Importantly, a bilateral agreement will allow the airworthiness certification of civil aeronautical products to be shared between two countries.
In the case of the UK and the EU, a bilateral safety agreement aims to reduce the duplication of certification activity and regulatory checks undertaken by the CAA and EASA by recognising where the UK and EU aviation safety regimes deliver equivalent outcomes. This means, for example, that someone designing or building a propeller in the UK will go through fewer regulatory processes to get the product certified in the EU, as there will be mutual recognition of regulatory regimes. This means that a bilateral agreement will reduce the time and expense for an aerospace company when it comes to complying with different regulators. That will be important in minimising the regulatory burdens and costs for industry. As both the CAA and EASA will have the same regulatory regime at the end of the transition period, there will be no initial divergence in the regimes, which in practice will mean that technical recertification or reassessment will not be needed.
Importantly, there is a precedent for negotiating bilateral safety agreements in both in the UK and the EU. For example, the UK has negotiated such an agreement with the United States and Canada and with Brazil, so I make the point to my noble friend Lord Davies of Gower that this is not an untested route.
My noble friend also asked about staffing numbers. Most EASA staff are employed directly by EASA and based in Cologne, so it is a decision for UK nationals employed there whether they will remain within that agency. The Civil Aviation Authority previously had a small number of secondees working in EASA, but they have now returned to the UK.
The Government are committed to working with stakeholders to understand their views and concerns on the potential bilateral agreement. It is right that we continue to engage closely with the industry to ensure that future arrangements can deliver the best outcomes for the industry. We hope that the industry will continue to work constructively with the Government to ensure that we achieve the best possible outcome for the future.
I am close to my time. I hope that has answered all the questions that I am able to answer today. As I said at the beginning, I will be very happy to consult the Hansard of this debate and write to noble Lords on any points that remain.
UN Sustainable Development Goal 3
Lord Whitty
That this House takes note of the United Kingdom’s progress towards United Nations Sustainable Development Goal 3 and, in particular, target 3.6 of halving global road deaths and injuries from road traffic accidents by 2020.
Lord Whitty (Lab)
My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Robertson, and at his request, I shall move this Motion. For understandable reasons, in the present circumstances my noble friend Lord Robertson has decided not to travel down from Scotland, and I have therefore been asked to introduce this debate. My noble friend apologises to the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, in the chair, that he did not receive that information.
My noble friend Lord Robertson is the chair of the FIA Foundation. It is the second-largest global charitable funder for road safety in the world, following Bloomberg Philanthropies. He would obviously have intended to focus on the global situation and the SDG target, and most of what I say at the beginning of my remarks will be focused on that.
Clearly coronavirus is foremost in everybody’s minds at the moment, and it may seem a bit odd that we are devoting parliamentary time now to road safety, but the two are, to a degree, connected. Think about how many intensive care wards, hospital beds and ambulances will be needed to cope with coronavirus and then think about how we are squandering vital health resources around the world on entirely preventable road traffic accidents. There are five deaths every day in the UK and more than 60 serious injuries. Globally, more than 1.3 million people die in road crashes each year, and at least 10 million people are seriously injured. Some 250,000 children and teenagers will be killed by adults driving vehicles this year. That is the world’s number one cause of death among young people. It is therefore important that there is a sustainable development goal target dedicated to reducing traffic deaths and injuries.
There was a meeting in Stockholm last month involving Ministers and officials from 140 countries to approve the Stockholm declaration, an action plan for halving traffic deaths worldwide by 2030. I intended to go, but I was unable to do so in the end. I thank the Minister—or the Minister’s colleague—for attending that conference.
Many of the measures in the action plan are familiar. They are familiar in this country and around the world, but the problem is that, although we have managed to reduce road accidents in this country over the past 50 years from around 8,000 to below 1,800 by 2010, things that we have done here have not been adopted worldwide, such as seat belts, safety vehicles, road design, improved braking systems and, above all, speed management. In low and middle-income countries, which have the biggest problems here—90% of casualties occur in those countries—those relatively low-hanging fruits remain to be plucked. Too few people in those countries are wearing safety helmets on motorbikes, too many new high-speed roads are being built without safety precautions, sidewalks or protection for pedestrians, and too many world auto makers are still willing to produce and sell in those countries new vehicles without crumple zones or even basic safety technology.
This is beginning to change, and the UK has been involved in trying to change it. The FIA Foundation has also helped spread the message around the world. UK-based charities have led much of the specialist action on traffic safety. The international road assessment programme is now working with the World Bank and highways authorities in more than 100 countries. Another UK charity, the Global New Car Assessment Programme, is crash-testing popular family cars in Latin America, India and South Africa and publishing the results so that it identifies and shames poor-performing car makers. It praises well-designed vehicles and by doing so boosts consumers’ demand for safety in their cars.
Our expertise is being deployed to help meet that world aim. There was a time when the Department for International Development did not include much about road safety in its grant aid programme, but it is now providing much-needed support to the World Bank’s global road safety facilities and, together with the Department of Health and Social Care, is funding a world-leading road safety research programme. The Department for Transport was also involved in important international conferences last year.
Yet, despite these welcome interventions here in the UK, we should do much more. On funding, the UK should join and support the UN Road Safety Fund, which urgently needs new donors and technical assistance. Currently, bilateral donors include France, Russia and the European Commission. We should join them. There are plenty of schemes to be met: the last call for proposals outstripped the actual money available fifteenfold. We also need to build safety and effectiveness into western and multilateral donors, including DfID, which historically has actually helped to fund unsafe roads without a serious safety element being incorporated.
The recent inclusion of road safety in the World Bank programme is an important development. We need stronger global health governance and co-operation to ensure that road safety is treated as a serious cause of ill health, particularly among young people around the world. We need to approach road travel as a safe system, so that roads, drivers, enforcement and protection of non-vehicle road users are part of a total system. Because mistakes are inevitable, we also need to prevent collisions causing harm and to empower recovery, rescue and hospitalisation to be more effective.
These issues apply around the world. The countries that are most subject to large-scale road safety problems are the poorer and the younger countries of the world. But we should not ignore the fact that we have problems in this country. In the last 10 years, the very welcome reductions of the preceding 20 years have largely stalled for deaths and, to some extent, serious injuries. I hesitate to advance this theory, but for the preceding 20 years, up until 2010, a clear and overarching road safety strategy was adopted by successive Governments. In 1990, the then Road Safety Minister, Peter Bottomley, launched a 10-year programme and, since 2000, we have seen a major reduction in casualties. I hesitate to mention the Road Safety Minister in 2000, but we too launched a 10-year programme at that point, which saw a very significant reduction until 2010.
Much more was still to be done, and the absence of an overarching strategy since 2010 has, whether causally related or not, coincided with the fact that the reduction of casualties here has stalled. There has been some serious progress even so. For example, Highways England’s decision to star rate the inbuilt infrastructure safety of all of its roads is a very important development. Indeed, it is another example of a British institution taking on a three-star rating so that 100 countries in the world have seen their networks based on that new star rating. That was adopted by iRAP with the support of the FIA Foundation, and my organisation, the Road Safety Foundation, continues to deliver many of its benefits. Incidentally, each star gained represents a halving of the rate of death and serious injury.
About 60% of the deaths in Britain are concentrated on targetable motorways and A roads. The DfT trialled a new approach on the 50 most recent local authority roads, as measured by the Road Safety Foundation. The results proved that, within nine months, it was possible to bring forward 50 schemes on the worst roads and train 30 local authorities—through the Road Safety Foundation—in a new, systematic approach to measuring and reducing risk on those roads. A £100 million portfolio of investment was given by the Government, and the return on that was a benefit-cost ratio of 4.4. It was a good initiative by this Government, but that funding is now uncertain. It needs to be continued and new schemes need to be applied to the remaining strategic unsafe roads.
Many other things need to be done. There are issues relating to safety in vehicles. Cars are now designed to make collisions at 40 miles an hour survivable for occupants. Roads are designed, or speeds are reduced, to make head-on or side-on crashes above 40 miles an hour impossible. A pedestrian’s likelihood of dying increases exponentially above 20 miles an hour, so the new emphasis on traffic speeds, particularly in our urban areas, to below 20 miles an hour, is very important. It is not rocket science. This is, perhaps, an epidemic for which we do have the vaccines, which are—given the funding and the priority—relatively easy to introduce.
Does the Minister agree that it is time for the Department for Transport to revisit the issue of a longer-term strategic plan? I know that in 2018, the DfT commissioned a study to look at road safety management capability in this country and produced a detailed report. It called, among other things, for a clearer strategy and clearer cohesion across departments for delivering road safety targets. Can the Minister tell us what has happened to that report and whether we can anticipate another, more coherent road safety strategy when the present crisis and focus of government changes?
Many other new things are happening. We are on the verge of semi-autonomous and autonomous cars. As the owner of a relatively new car, I find it quite difficult to manage the head-up display and the electronic distraction right in front of you. The Institute for Advanced Management sent me a note saying that part of its research into in-car entertainment showed a distraction of 16 seconds, which at 70 miles an hour is a five or six-car distance distraction for the driver. That brings its own problems. So, technology that improves driving the car and the comfort of the passengers can be distracting and therefore dangerous to everybody, including the passengers. I specifically ask the Minister whether he has any comments on that research. The way in which car design and differentiation between models is going, what is on your dashboard is used as a selling point.
With those remarks, and particularly the focus that the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, would want to see on the international situation and Britain’s role in that, I beg to move.
Lord Low of Dalston (CB)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. I should really congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, on securing this important debate, but certainly the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, deserves to be congratulated on introducing it in such an exemplary fashion.
The background to this debate is the UK’s progress towards meeting the UN’s sustainable development goal 3, in particular target 3.6: halving global deaths and injuries from road traffic accidents by 2020.
The Secretary-General’s report to the ministerial meeting of the High-level Political Forum on Sustainable Development, convened under the auspices of the Economic and Social Council on 8 May 2019, makes clear that road traffic injury is the leading cause of death for children and young adults aged between five and 29. The number of road traffic deaths globally climbed from 1.31 million in 2013 to 1.35 million in 2016. Against this background, how is the UK faring? The answer seems to be not too badly. Between 2010 and 2019, deaths remained pretty constant, increasing from 1,857 to 1,870 a year, but mainly hovering around the 1,700s. Injuries, on the other hand, declined fairly consistently, from 206,798 in 2010 to 157,630 in 2019, with a slight blip in 2014, when the figure rose from 181,957 the previous year to 194,477.
Could we do even better? How effective is the Government’s current approach to road safety? One factor of particular interest to me is that the Association of Optometrists thinks that the current rules on drivers’ vision are too weak. Poor vision causes many road accidents. We do not know exactly how many, because accidents can be caused by a combination of factors, including tiredness and distraction, as well as poor vision, and there is no requirement for a driver’s vision to be checked when an accident occurs. In 2017, there were two fatal accidents and 52 serious accidents where uncorrected defective eyesight was recorded as a contributing factor, but a 2012 study estimated that over 2,000 drivers in the UK were involved in accidents due to poor eyesight, causing nearly 3,000 casualties.
Currently, a driver’s vision is checked during their driving test by getting them to read a number plate at a distance of 20 metres. However, many drivers are never again required to have a vision test. Furthermore, the current system relies on self-reporting. If a driver has an eye condition, they must report it to the DVLA and be tested to check that they are safe to drive. Once a driver reaches the age of 70, they must complete a self-declaration to confirm that they are fit to drive, which includes confirming that their vision meets the legal standard, but they are not required to provide any evidence of this.
This system is problematic for many reasons. First, the number plate test is not necessarily a reliable indicator of whether someone can drive safely, because it does not check all the relevant aspects of visual function. Someone may pass the number plate test without having good enough vision to drive safely, and the result of the test cannot be checked in a test environment with consistent results. The number plate test should be replaced with a modern, scientific and reliable evaluation process.
Secondly, some eye conditions can be asymptomatic in their early stages, so drivers may not realise that they have a problem. For example, it is possible for someone with glaucoma to lose up to 40% of their vision without noticing. Therefore, they may continue to drive even though their reduced vision puts them and other road users at risk. We also know that some drivers will continue to drive even when they know that their vision is below the legal standard. In 2017, the Association of Optometrists carried out a survey of its members which found that one in three optometrists had in the last month seen someone with vision below the legal standard but who continued to drive.
There have been several high-profile and tragic examples of where drivers have known that their vision is below the legal standard and continued to drive anyway. Poppy-Arabella Clarke was just three years old when she was tragically killed by a 72 year-old who drove through a red light at a pedestrian crossing, which he later told the police he did not see. David Evans, aged 49, was killed by a 50 year-old driver whose vision was below the legal standard and who was fully aware of his vision problems. Natalie Wade, aged 28, was out shopping for her wedding dress when she was killed by a 78 year-old driver with vision below the legal standard. Ambrose Skingle, aged 86, was killed by an 87 year-old driver who lied to the DVLA about his sight problems to obtain his licence.
In 2011, 16 year-old Cassie McCord was killed by a driver with defective eyesight. The driver, who was 87, had been stopped by the police three days earlier and, after failing a roadside vision check, was told to hand over his licence. The driver refused and the police were powerless to do anything about it. Cassie’s mother campaigned for the police to have stronger powers, and “Cassie’s law” was introduced in 2013, enabling police officers to revoke a driver’s licence immediately if they believe that the driver represents a risk to themselves and other road users.
Are there any areas where the Government’s current approach to road safety could be improved? For reasons such as those I have outlined, the Association of Optometrists believes that the current rules on driving and vision are too weak:
“All drivers should be made aware of the importance of good eye sight as an aspect of road safety and encouraged to have regular sight tests, at least every two years. As a fall-back, all drivers should be legally required to have their vision checked when they first apply for a licence, and when renewing their driving licence—every ten years for most people, and every three years for those over 70. That check should involve standardised reliable tests, rather than the inadequate number plate test.”
How can interventions to reduce the number and severity of road traffic accidents best be implemented? As I have said, the current number plate test should be replaced by a modern and reliable evaluation process to check drivers’ vision. This check should be made compulsory when a driver first obtains their driving licence, then every 10 years when they renew their licence, and every three years once they reach the age of 70. I know that the Association of Optometrists would be happy to work with the Government to help implement these changes and take them forward.
Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne (Con)
My Lords, I will declare my voluntary interests before beginning my remarks. I had the honour of serving as the Prime Minister’s trade envoy for Turkmenistan and Iraq, both of which I will mention in my remarks. I also chair the AMAR international charitable foundation, whose example I will reference.
The noble Lord, Lord Robertson, requested this debate. We honour him for that request despite the fact that he is not in his normal seat, and we thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for putting it in front of your Lordships’ House. I wonder whether the experiences of the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, as Secretary-General of NATO might have heightened his awareness of road safety issues in both military and civilian contexts. Nine years after his retirement, he clearly celebrates the 2015 sustainable development goals, including the one for road safety, the one that we are debating today, which is identified as number 3.6.
My own concern for road safety came from my experiences with the military, in Iraq, in this case, accepting the kind hospitality at Camp Victory offered by US General Chiarelli and subsequently by General Joe Anderson and General Odierno over a five-year period. When going out in on patrol in Baghdad with their soldiers, I consistently read the notice in the military vehicles stating, “Wear your seat belts. We have more deaths from traffic accidents than we do from enemy action”. I found that very hard to believe and I questioned it, but of course they were absolutely right.
Five years in Baghdad and other missions with the US military elsewhere taught me a lesson that road safety is not an add-on to personal and family health; it is an integral component of human health, life and safety. I welcome the adoption by the United Nations of the SDGs, including target 3.6 regarding road traffic accidents. For some years earlier, in my capacity as chairman of the AMAR international charitable foundation, I partnered with Shell to tackle road safety issues and the injuries and deaths of mothers and children in Maysan province in Iraq. The province is in the south of the country and has a huge oil field called al-Majnoon, meaning, “My God, what have we got here?” It is one of the biggest oil reserves in the world, and when they discovered it, that is what they named it. It has a wide population of marsh people around it.
Shell entered into a partnership with the AMAR Foundation in order to have a look at these issues. I will say that the local population were very unbriefed indeed, and it was a pleasure to be able to work with them. We did a pilot in 2013 with 1,654 pupils. We expanded it to 72 schools and 136 teachers in the autumn of 2014. From May to December 2013 we extended it to April 2014, at no cost to Shell. The total value of the Shell project was $179,000. Within that, the core part was $42,000 plus $40,000 to produce the teaching materials for the local people and the training of trainers, with a field budget of $106,000.
What did we do with that money, and why was it effective? At the heart of it lay the use of women. In that sense, that is a very successful way of working in any case. We trained volunteer women to assist on the Iraqi family road safety education project. During one quarter alone, the 24 women safety volunteers in al-Nashwa and the 40 in al-Dair made a total of, and I quote correctly, 9,315 education visits to families in the community, reaching an average of 8,482 beneficiaries educated every month. Quarterly refresher training was provided both in al-Nashwa to the WSVs on 8 June that year and in al-Dair. The 40 women safety volunteers and four supervisors were divided into two groups, owing to their large size.
Part of my comments today will refer to modelling and looking at the ways in which achievements can happen. In this project, participant understanding of the training was evaluated through pre and post testing. Health staff from the AMAR clinics locally, also funded by Shell, provided road safety education to a total of 3,831 patients during that quarter, an average of 1,271 people a month.
During the quarter, a total of 226 road traffic accidents were recorded by health staff, representing a decrease from the 424 incidents and accidents reported in the previous quarter. Quarterly refresher training was provided; road safety education was delivered by the staff in the primary health centres; and the targeting of children in the schools was another outreach programme. For example, with children, a team worked hard to compose with the relevant local education department a teacher-training booklet, cards with photographs, messages and the children’s stories and songs, and this was piloted in a dozen or more schools.
I raise these details because, as the noble Lord stated, the Department for International Development has spent a very large sum of money indeed over that same period of time—£9.8 million—and now there is another surge of funding to support more research programmes.
Shell has high sensitivity to the health of populations local to the oil and gas fields where it works. Indeed, it is the principal extractor in large parts of the globe. Given the experience I have had with Shell, I very much welcome its approach to local populations. It is, as far as I am aware, the only major oil and gas institution with its own medical personnel in headquarters as permanent staff. I cannot help but compare that with the use of the funding that DfID has put into the global budget of the Global Road Safety Facility, all of which appears to have gone on research. So I seek to persuade the Minister to continue to think globally—that is essential—but also perhaps to consider acting locally. It is the people themselves who are suffering the road incidents and if they have no knowledge they will not be able to benefit from their Governments’ efforts.
Indeed, the development goals certainly highlight the need for road safety development in developing nations. There this will mean new roads and new vehicles of all types and kinds. These will be novel to the local population. They will offer huge risks to life and limb: incoming foreigners, poor road behaviour by everyone, unnecessary permanent injuries, and a lack of education on these issues.
I wonder, therefore, whether, looking at lessons learned, as we do, we should be discussing size. I suggest that given today’s more difficult environment the days of big—indeed, vast—unmonitored grants are and should be past. The trusted organisations have let us down: Oxfam and prostitution; Save the Children, where I used to be a director, employing known sexual offenders; and UNICEF claims of expenditure contradicted by knowledge on the ground—information I have already given to DfID. The evidence is contradicting the reality. Perhaps we should start to remember that small is beautiful, and although small needs monitoring, is it not better to have definitive outcomes for a number of people than global goals which, wonderful though they are, do not seem to give us the outcomes that the people themselves will achieve? It does not happen, of course, with UN grants either.
The population and local governments of the north of Iraq—I am moving my geography—have to cope with 3.8 million refugees and IDPs who have been hastily sheltered since 2013. There are Yazidis, Christians, Syrians and Muslims, none of whom believe that the UK Government have given them anything at all. Yet both I and the Minister know that we have provided one of the largest sets of grants ever known to the north of Iraq in order to assist the KRG and the Iraqi Government in Baghdad to look after that enormous influx of refugees.
However, because the funds are spent by the UN, they are not noted as being funds coming from any individual Government. The reasons are understandable, but it means that the local people of the north of Iraq believe that Britain has betrayed and deserted them by giving them nothing at all, even though that is the exact opposite of what we have done. However often I explain that to the local population and to the governments in question, both regional and national, when I visit them, the message does not get through. As I say, that is understandable, because the money is invisible to the local population and their governments. This is not necessary, because the German Government, who I am sure are just as stringent or more about their expenditure as we are, are well known for the funding they provide. Perhaps we should think about how UK taxpayers’ money needs not only more careful husbandry through monitoring—which the large grants do not get, of course—but a change of values. Perhaps we should change them from high expenditure on unmonitored international NGO projects to having our normal British respect for low-cost, high-value, well-monitored development expenditure where the overriding goal is the people’s development—the development not of the spender but of the recipients. By realigning our development expenditure with UK foreign policy and human rights, we could again offer expenditure with a British face.
Our large grants have been absolutely wonderful, but is now not the moment to rethink the way we spend our money? I have no doubt at all that the world needs Britain. We are the most successful, multiracial, best co-ordinated and outward-looking nation in the world and our charitableness is immense. The examples I have just given are offered as a model that might be capable of being copied a million times over for a minuscule amount of money. Engaging with Shell and other major global businesses in Britain is another way of doing this. I would be happy to discuss new ways of using our funding with the Minister whenever that will be possible.
Perhaps I may say again what a pleasure it is to contribute to this debate and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, and his alter ego, the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for this opportunity.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, I start by congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, on his speech. I welcome the fact that reducing road traffic casualties is enshrined in the United Nations sustainable development goals and targets, but it is disappointing that so little progress has been made. Globally, road traffic crashes are the eighth leading cause of death for people of all ages, and they are the leading cause of death for children and young adults. Approximately 1.35 million people are killed on the world’s roads each year, while roughly 50 million people are injured. Some 90% of these accidents occur in low and middle-income countries, even though those countries are home to only 54% of the world’s vehicles. The average cost of all this is 3% of GDP. At a time when we are becoming all too familiar with pandemic death rates, road accidents are indeed the neglected pandemic.
Some of the poorest countries are home to the worst statistics. Anyone who visits many African countries, for instance, cannot fail to be shocked by the intensity of the traffic and the lack of basic safety measures. These countries also lack robust health services or systems of support for those unable to work, which simply magnifies the impact on families where one member is injured in a traffic accident.
There are some international initiatives to help these countries improve their road safety, but as yet they have made little headway. The UK recently participated in the third Global Ministerial Conference on Road Safety and new targets were agreed. The World Bank hosts the Global Road Safety Facility, and the UK has committed £9.8 million between 2013 and 2021. I would be grateful if the Minister could tell us whether the Government have committed funding for any other international schemes. Although I welcome the £9.8 million, it is a paltry sum.
All these statistics ignore the other unseen killer that is a product of our road transport, and that is emissions—both carbon dioxide, which creates climate change, and nitrogen dioxide, which contributes to more than one in 19 deaths in our largest cities and towns here in the UK. If it is bad here, it is even worse in poorer countries, where the vehicles are often older and therefore more polluting and large numbers of people live in close proximity to busy roads.
This debate refers specifically to our own progress here in the UK in reducing death rates on our roads. I am pretty sure that, when the Minister responds, he will refer to our relatively safe roads. Our road accident statistics—1,784 in 2018—compare well with many other countries’, yet progress on reducing the number of fatalities has stalled.
For the rest of my time today, I will simply pick on a number of separate but clear issues that lie behind those figures and can be quite easily addressed. We have seen a major increase in traffic in the UK in recent years. We have also seen significant advances in vehicle technology, which should make them safer, yet in many respects our approach to road safety has not kept pace with modern facilities or challenges.
Pedestrians, cyclists and motorcyclists have significantly higher casualty rates per mile travelled than those travelling in cars or buses. I commend to the Minister research undertaken at Nottingham University, which has highlighted that one of the most common forms of fatal crash is when a car pulls out in front of an oncoming bike or motorbike. They are called LBFTSs—looked but failed to see. The evidence is that when a lot of traffic is on the road, drivers often fail to remember all they have seen and simply forget bikes and motorbikes most easily. All this suggests the need for a road safety campaign to encourage drivers to reinforce their visual memory by literally thinking bike and saying “Bike”. We all remember from our childhood the “Look right, look left, look right again” and “Stop, look, listen” campaigns. Those things are simple but memorable and lifetime effective.
The group of car drivers most likely to have a fatal accident are the newest and youngest. Those aged 17 to 24 make up only 7% of full licence holders but equate to 16% of road deaths, even though on average their mileage is lower. Some 15% of the deaths of young people occur in road traffic collisions. In 2017, 313 people were killed in crashes involving young drivers; 108 of them were the drivers themselves, 55 were their passengers and 150 were other road users.
Other than introducing the theory paper, the driving test today still looks remarkably like the one I took when I was 17. I suggest that that is ridiculous. For a number of years there have been calls for a graduated driving licence. One in five new drivers crashes their car in the first year. There are a number of limitations that could be placed on new drivers so that they can gradually build up to full permission to drive at any time of day on all roads and with passengers. I was pleased to see that the Government committed to considering this last year, and I hope that the Minister can update us today. Wherever GDLs have been introduced, from California to New Zealand, death and accident rates have fallen.
However, those of us who are older can also cause problems. The World Health Organization says that poor eyesight is a key risk factor in road crashes, and approximately 3,000 casualties a year in the UK can be attributed to the driver having poor vision. The noble Lord, Lord Low, addressed this issue in considerable detail, and I congratulate him on his speech. I reiterate that the problem is that there is no structured approach to testing for adequate vision. People can lose up to 40% of their vision without even being aware that they are losing it. Although there are minimum eyesight standards, the responsibility lies with us as drivers. Once you have your licence, you are unlikely to be tested again for a very long time, if ever. Doctors and police can of course intervene and report you, but the process is pretty haphazard. We all know that eyesight declines with age, and a requirement for a simple and regular test is surely a fairly modest one.
On seat belts, there have been increasingly precise requirements since the 1970s, so you would think that the case has been made. Yet the statistics show that passengers, as opposed to drivers, are particularly cavalier about this. In 2017, 27% of car occupant fatalities were of people not wearing their seat belt. That statistic should be advertised a lot more frequently. I am pleased to see that the Government are considering imposing penalty points on those who flout the law on this. There is a steady stream of prosecutions in our courts—over 6,000 in 2018—and they achieve a high level of convictions. The figures show a stark picture. I would be careful in how I say this but the picture is stark: it is overwhelmingly a male problem. One in 10 of those prosecuted is female, and the rest—I lead your Lordships to conclude—are therefore male.
Finally, recent research from the Institute of Advanced Motorists demonstrates the dangers associated with in-car entertainment systems. We are all familiar with the dangers of texting or using our mobile phone while driving—although you can still see people doing it quite commonly—but driver distraction is still a factor in about one-third of road collisions in Europe. The IAM research showed that drivers interacting with in-car systems such as Android Auto and Apple CarPlay increase their stopping distance by four to five car lengths. That is a considerable increase. I say to the Minister that we investigate air and rail accidents and have bodies to do that and to draw strategic conclusions on safety. I suggest to the Minister that we need a body to look at road accidents as well.
History has shown us that, where the law changes, social acceptance rapidly follows—for example, on drink driving—so I encourage the Government to embrace the need for change.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
My Lords, I express my thanks to my noble friend Lord Robertson of Port Ellen for securing this debate and express regret that the current health crisis has precluded him from being here today. As my noble friend Lord Whitty said, much of his speech in opening the debate in the name of my noble friend Lord Robertson included the points and thrust of the case that the noble Lord would have made. In reality then, we have not been denied either the opportunity to hear the views of my noble friend Lord Robertson or to be made aware of the considerable and effective work that he has undertaken and is undertaking to promote road safety globally.
The sustainable development goals consist of 17 global goals covering ambitious aims such as ending hunger, poverty and inequality. They also include good health and well-being, and target 3.6 concerns road deaths and injuries. The sustainable development goals were agreed to by all 193 UN member states in 2015, with the target of achieving them by 2030. However, target 3.6 was an exception, since it provided for halving the number of global deaths and injuries from road traffic accidents by 2020, not 2030. At the end of 2018, the World Health Organization published a report assessing progress made in improving road safety globally and concluded that the sustainable development goal target 3.6 to halve road traffic deaths by 2020 would not be met. Participants at the third Global Ministerial Conference on Road Safety in February called for a new target to replace target 3.6—namely, that there should now be a reduction in road traffic deaths by at least 50% from 2020 to 2030.
The SDGs replaced the millennium development goals, which had guided international development work over the period from 2000 to 2015. A key difference in the introduction of the SDG agenda was that the goals became universal, meaning that all countries, including the wealthiest nations, are required to meet them. We are therefore committed and obliged to meet these goals domestically as well as to support other countries to do the same through our international development work; hence the relevance of my noble friend Lord Whitty’s support for the Government’s work to support other countries in the field of road safety, but also his pleas for further substantial action—some of which he spelled out in specific terms—to which the Government will no doubt give their response when the Minister replies to the debate.
As I understand it, though I may well be wrong, all government departments are meant to have embedded the sustainable development goals into their single departmental plans and to have nominated an SDG champion at director level whose responsibility it is to promote the sustainable development goals in their department. If I am right, can the Government say who that person is within the Department for Transport, when they were appointed to that role and the extent to which their role as SDG champion at director level is their sole activity to which they can give their undivided attention, as opposed to being one of a number of responsibilities that they undertake?
As has already been said, road traffic accidents globally are the eighth leading cause of death for people of all ages and is the leading cause of death for children and young adults aged five to 29 years. Between 2000 and 2016, the number of road deaths globally increased, reaching 1.35 million in 2016. Over those years, the number ran at approximately 18 deaths per 100,000 people.
Approximately 50 million people are injured globally each year, some 10 million seriously. Once again, as has been said, road traffic deaths and injuries cost countries 3% of their GDP, on average. However, 90% of road traffic deaths occur in low and middle-income countries, yet these countries have only 54% of the world’s vehicles. That indicates where supported action is most needed, as my noble friend Lord Whitty highlighted in his speech.
For better or worse, I was recently in Vietnam. To someone used to driving, walking or cycling on the roads in this country the bustling city of Saigon, not dissimilar in population to London, is—to say the least of it—a completely different experience. Scooters dominate the traffic scene. Far from all significant traffic junctions are controlled by traffic lights and the number of cars, a number of them four-wheel-drive SUVs or vehicles of similar size, is increasing. Those increasing numbers of cars and large numbers of scooters are not necessarily the ideal partners when it comes to using crowded, congested city roads, where traffic regulation appears at times somewhat limited. That of course has implications for pedestrians, too.
Road safety, particularly for younger people and their parents, is apparently becoming a major source of concern in Saigon. A first new metro or subway line of some 20 kilometres is under construction in Saigon, with Japanese finance. Some there predict that it will remove a significant percentage of scooter journeys from the roads, when opened, since it will provide a much faster and safer route for many going to and from the city centre, not least commuters. It remains to be seen whether that proves to be the case but if it does, it should make a contribution to improving road safety. It also highlights that providing finance or expertise for public transport schemes, as opposed to direct investment in making roads or vehicles safer, can also impact favourably on road safety.
A further factor in determining the impact of road accidents on deaths and injuries is the quality, or otherwise, of medical care. As has been said, in those countries with a high incidence of accidents the medical facilities are not always to the highest standards or not so easily accessible to all, or both. Help in that area can also impact in a positive way on road safety.
My noble friend Lord Whitty referred to the importance of the design and construction of vehicles in reducing road deaths and injuries. He also referred to controlling the speed of vehicles in locations where they and pedestrians are alongside each other, since the speed at which a pedestrian or cyclist is hit by a vehicle determines the severity of the outcome of the incident. I have seen, as others no doubt have, projects not that far from where we are now that have revitalised residential streets and shopping areas, simply by either significantly reducing vehicle speeds and access or pedestrianising the location completely. Instead of parents with young children walking along roads that have heavy and potentially fast vehicle usage, while holding on to their offspring firmly and closely, you see a totally different atmosphere: a more relaxed and happier one, where parents no longer feel obliged to hold their children firmly in check. They no longer feel that their children are in imminent danger of being knocked down. This not only returns streets to the communities who reside or shop in them but makes a contribution to improving road safety.
I referred earlier to the size of cars in the context of Saigon. There is also an increasing prevalence and usage on our roads of SUVs and similar larger vehicles, a development which appears to have happened quite rapidly and is, presumably, continuing. What contribution is that increase making to road safety in this country, and to the sustainable development goal of a healthy and safe environment? I fear that it may be negative, if the miles driven per litre of fuel is less than for a smaller car. On a similar-speed basis, presumably the adverse impact on a pedestrian or cyclist of being hit by one of these vehicles is greater. If figures or other information on this aspect are available, perhaps the Minister could write to me with the details.
Like my noble friend Lord Whitty, I will listen to the Government’s response to his plea for more government support for road safety improvement initiatives and organisations working in this field in other countries, where such support can have a significant and marked impact.
I was struck, though not entirely surprised, by one comment made to me in Vietnam. The thrust of it was that a few years ago the individual making the comment would have wanted, if he could, to leave his country and seek a better life elsewhere. He said that things had now improved, at least for him. He felt that the country had a future and he wanted to stay to be part of it. I do not wish to suggest that supporting projects to improve road safety is the difference between individuals wanting to stay in their country and wanting to leave, but it is one of a great many issues that impact on the quality and enjoyment of life. I have never understood the approach of those who seem to begrudge every penny of what we as a nation spend on supporting improvement projects in less-developed countries, since the same people are often the most vociferous in their concerns over levels of migration into our country. One way to reduce migration worldwide is to seek to reduce people’s desire to become economic migrants from their own countries through the developed world, including our own country, providing the financial and practical resources to help to improve the standard and quality of life in those countries, so that the number of those seeking to leave, who are often those whom such countries need most to remain, diminishes.
I once again thank my noble friend Lord Whitty for his powerful contribution. I also thank my noble friend Lord Robertson of Port Ellen for the considerable work he has done and continues to do in the specific area of road safety initiatives and improvements worldwide. I hope that the Government will be able to give a not just sympathetic but positive response to the case for more support worldwide made by my noble friend Lord Whitty. I also hope that the Government will respond to the points made by my noble friend Lord Whitty and others, including on a longer-term strategic plan relating to road safety targets for this country, continuing finance to target the most dangerous roads for action, the stalling in the fall of the rate of fatalities, and the potential implications of ever-more sophisticated dashboard technology acting as a distraction for drivers and slowing down reaction times.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, I believe that I am the second member of the Government Front Bench to attempt to translate themselves into a lookalike of my noble friend Lady Vere this afternoon. I fear that I have not been too successful, but I am very sorry that she is not in her place. I thank all who have participated in the debate. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for standing in so ably for the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, whom we miss.
Much has been done to improve road safety in the UK. I noted the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, on the statistics that he raised about improving road safety since 2000. He was very modest, but I believe that he should be applauded for the work he has done in that respect. Since 2010, the UK has reduced reported road fatalities by 3%, compared with a 11% rise in North America and a 21% reduction in EU and EFTA countries. The rest of the UNECE countries had a combined average reduction of 15% over the same period.
However, as the House will agree, so much more needs to be done, and 2020 marks the start of the decade of action to accelerate progress towards the sustainable development goals. As the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said, there are still 1.35 million deaths a year on roads throughout the world, which is unacceptable. That is why the UK is committed to improving road safety domestically and internationally, but this must be done effectively. We should approach road safety on a number of different fronts. It is essential that we focus on education, enforcement and empathy in all that we do.
On our approach to action domestically, as noble Lords will be aware, the UK published a road safety statement last year, which focuses on cutting crashes among key groups of road users. It is a two-year action plan, targeting four of the most at-risk categories: young people, rural road users, motorcyclists, and older vulnerable users. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, put it very well when she mentioned LBFTSs. That has to be at the top of the list of issues to address.
Underpinning this work is a single principle: that of making our roads safer for all. This is exemplified by the safe-system approach that we launched in 2015. The heart of this approach is the understanding that humans are both fragile and fallible, so when mistakes happen, cars and roads should be designed to forgive, while road users should be given the best possible training to avoid crashes happening at all. This will take some time to achieve. I was very interested to hear of my noble friend Lady Nicholson’s experiences in Iraq with Shell, where some innovative and pioneering training methods were used. I found her speech particularly interesting.
The safe-system approach also aims better to manage the aftermath of crashes. We have awarded a £480,000 grant to the RAC Foundation and Highways England for a new road collision investigation project. It will trial investigation methods similar to those used following aviation and oil and gas industry accidents—perhaps referring to the experiences raised by my noble friend—to see whether they can help us better to understand the causes of crashes and near-misses on the roads.
We are also taking practical action to optimise the efficiency of crash scene investigations. The collision reporting and sharing system—inevitably known as CRASH—is now being used by 23 police forces in England and Scotland. It makes it far easier for the police, often working at dark, windy and rain-drenched roadsides, quickly and accurately to record the full details of a crash, from pinpointing the exact location to loading full witness statements. The next version of CRASH will be launched later in the year. We are continuing to hone this crucial tool that has proved invaluable to police officers around the county, and we are also working with the National Police Chiefs’ Council’s specialist capabilities review to develop a new version of CRASH specifically for investigators of the most serious incidents. It is my hope that the evidence gathered through these new systems will not just assist in the investigation of individual collisions but will enable us to identify previously unseen patterns and trends and help to ensure that crashes are not only fully investigated but, importantly, simply prevented.
My department has taken some significant steps on the domestic front. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, highlighted unsafe roads, and he was quite right to do so. In 2017, we launched the £100 million safer roads fund to tackle the 50 most dangerous A roads in England. My noble friend Lady Vere recently visited the A1290 in Sunderland, where crucial improvements have been completed. Others are under way around the country, and many more are soon to be started. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, raised this point, so I hope that he will be listening carefully to what I am saying.
In 2018, the cycling and walking review was announced, containing a two-year action with 21 packages of measures. This is a ground-breaking plan to cut the toll of incidents involving pedestrians and cyclists. Key interventions include reviewing guidance in the Highway Code to improve safety for cyclists, pedestrians and horse-riders, encouraging local councils to invest around 15% of their local transport infrastructure funding over time on safe and efficient cycling and walking infrastructure and investing £100,000 to support police to improve enforcement by developing a national back-office function to handle footage provided through dash-cam evidence.
My department’s 2019 road safety statement, with more than 70 actions, is targeting key interventions to improve road safety. The noble Lords, Lord Rosser and Lord Whitty, asked about this. For young road users—who were also mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, who made a very important point—there is a broad aim to improve road safety for children and young people through new technology and research and by developing better learning opportunities and messaging for young drivers. This includes helping new drivers to stay safe through a number of actions, such as, as mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, encouraging learner drivers to increase on-the-road experience before taking their test and reinforcing vital road safety measures through our THINK! campaign.
For rural road users, we are setting up a rural road users working group. Membership will be from a diverse range of people and institutions affected by road safety in rural communities, including local authorities, rural businesses, farmers, horse-riders, cyclists and ramblers. Key issues might include: how to make it easier and quicker to make local improvements to traffic signs on country roads; the issue of rural speeding; and speed limits and rural safety enforcement.
To improve the safety of motorcyclists, we are committed to ensuring that they are equipped with the specialist skills necessary to stay safe on the road. Motorcyclists are one of the highest-risk user groups on the road, and we have proposed a range of specific actions and research initiatives designed to understand the risks, increase protection and improve behaviour. The DVSA is developing a package of measures to improve the training regime. We are working with UK industry and motorcycle groups to understand how to encourage riders to wear the best protective equipment for their needs and what, if any, improvements need to be made to protective equipment. I think it was the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, who raised the important point about helmets. I hope she will forgive me if it was not her but it was one of your Lordships. We are commissioning additional research into the use of powered two-wheelers and other vehicles in the gig economy to understand how to reduce the safety risks these drivers encounter.
For older road users—this may be of particular interest to this House—the Government have committed to assessing the recommendations from the 2016 Older Drivers Task Force. We need to better understand the extent to which driver vision issues pose a road safety risk in the UK. On that note, I took note of the interesting speech of the noble Lord, Lord Low; this was also raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. I assure the House that the department and the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency take road safety very seriously. Current licensing arrangements take into account the risks that an individual poses to road safety. Currently there are no plans to introduce mandatory eyesight testing for drivers because there is no evidence that this would improve road safety. Although an optician’s certificate or equivalent would provide assurance that someone had had their eyes tested, this would not ensure that a driver could meet the current eyesight standard on an ongoing basis. It would also not guarantee that the driver would use their prescribed glasses or corrective lenses while driving.
The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, spoke about seat belts—another important issue. Seat-belt use levels are generally high but there is no room for complacency. Non-seat-belt use accounts for a disproportionately high number of car occupant fatalities: 26%. That is why we are reviewing the issues behind this problem. As part of this, we are considering the Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety report calling for this offence to result in penalty points.
My department is also reviewing enforcement and legislative interventions to identify improvements that can be made to road safety. Enforcement capability can and will be improved. We are undertaking a comprehensive review of roads policing and will shortly publish a call for evidence as part of that. We are also reviewing the UK’s law on mobile phones and seat belts, with a view to closing the loophole requiring proof of “interactive communication” for an offence of using a mobile phone while driving to be committed, and to understand why there is a continuing issue with non-seat-belt use, as I mentioned earlier.
On the very important point about in-car entertainment, which I think was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, the department is aware of the research and the published report, and will be reviewing the detail. The Highway Code already warns drivers of the dangers of distraction but clearly this is not enough. This is very much work in progress.
All our interventions use an evidence-based approach to deliver the best results. For example, the department looked at 20 mph speed limits, and has published research addressing the gap in the evidence on their effectiveness. There is insufficient evidence to conclude that there has been a significant change in the number of collisions and casualties following the introduction of 20 mph limits in residential areas. I am very much aware of this as I live near Oxford and there are plenty of those in the middle of Oxford, as noble Lords will be aware.
The evaluation of 20 mph limits studied 12 case study schemes, comprising a variety of area types, road types and scale. A further three case studies covered local authorities that had chosen not to implement a 20 mph scheme.
While we recognise that speed has an impact on road safety, we do not support the introduction of blanket 20 mph speed limits nationally because they might not be appropriate for all roads’ local conditions. Local authorities have the power to set speed limits on their roads, as does Highways England for the strategic route network. Their local knowledge makes them best placed to make these decisions. The department has published guidance designed to make sure that speed limits are appropriately and consistently set while allowing for flexibility to deal with local needs and conditions.
As well as these interventions, for some time THINK!—my department’s pioneering and award-winning road safety campaign—has worked on targeted campaigns to improve the behaviour of drivers in England and Wales. The THINK! “Mates Matter” strategy focuses on young male drivers aged 17 to 24, who are four times more likely to be killed or seriously injured on the roads than car drivers aged 25 or over. The strategy challenges social norms among groups of mates; encouraging young men to watch each other’s backs. This includes targeting channels most popular with young men and aligning activity with the cultural and seasonal moments that matter most to them.
THINK! also works with trusted influencers and brand partners to extend the reach and credibility of its messages. The strategy covers a range of issues, including drink-driving, distraction from mobile phones and passengers, as mentioned earlier, and inappropriate speeds on country roads. As well as the work of THINK! in helping schools and nurseries teach children as young as three about road safety, we have awarded £200,000 to Road Safety GB to roll out augmented-reality technology resources to schools so that children can gain real-world understanding of risks from the classroom.
The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, raised an important point about vehicle standards. Vehicle safety is of course a key aspect of road safety, but the UK recognises the importance of regulating vehicles and supports the introduction of Euro NCAP systems around the world to back that up. The UK also works at the United Nations on vehicle standards as a leading member to ensure the safety of vehicles. However, despite this good work, more needs to be done around the world and the Department for Transport is committed to that work.
I turn to the management capacity review, which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. This independent review, published in May 2018, was commissioned to identify practical and actionable opportunities for strengthening joint working, local innovation and efficiency on a national and local basis. It informed our thinking for the refreshed Road Safety Statement and two-year action plan published the following year. Work has recently been commissioned on the effectiveness of targets and will report in autumn 2020, addressing one of the main points made by the review. As mentioned earlier, we are enhancing our understanding of the causes of collisions, another of its recommendations, with the £480,000.
The statement also announced actions on our key priority groups of the young, older users, motorcyclists and rural road users, which the review raised as well. In addition, we announced that we would lead a review of roads policing, working with the Home Office, the National Police Chiefs’ Council and other agencies. As part of that review, Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services has conducted a thematic inspection of roads policing in seven police forces. Its report is due to be published shortly and its findings and recommendations will inform our understanding of the current situation with regard to the effectiveness of roads policing.
We recognise that we have a reasonably good record on road safety in the UK compared to many other countries. We are exploring how we can use this to work with and learn from other countries. Department for Transport officials meet officials from other countries and international organisations to share best practice and explore how global road safety can be improved. This was very much a theme in the House today—linking with other countries and learning from them and, I hope, them learning from us. In this vein, last September we hosted the UK’s first international road safety conference, which was attended by experts and legislators from across the world and demonstrated the UK’s commitment to sharing experiences and knowledge to improve road safety domestically and internationally.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and others referred to the United Nations sustainable development goals, which were designed and adopted by all member states in 2015 and are the shared blueprint to tackle the most pressing global challenges by 2030. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, that we continue to be committed to the sustainable development goals and support the aim of target 3.6 to reduce global road traffic deaths and injuries.
My noble friend Lady Vere demonstrated the importance of highlighting road safety alongside other international challenges, such as sustainability and health, at last month’s 3rd Global Ministerial Conference on Road Safety. The department supports the Stockholm Declaration, which aims to halve the number of deaths and serious injuries on the world’s roads by 2030. We expect the Stockholm Declaration to include this target for delivery by 2030 when it is presented at the next UN General Assembly as a resolution for adoption. However, due to the current climate as a result of Covid-19, negotiations on the resolution have not begun. When they do begin, the UK will engage and provide its views.
To pick up on points raised by my noble friend Lady Nicholson and the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, on international road safety, the UK, via DfID and DHSC, has been an active donor to the World Bank’s Global Road Safety Facility. This has helped fund a number of key initiatives, including the African Road Safety Observatory, a unique initiative that launched in 2019. It aims to foster national, international and continental co-operation to generate road safety data and to influence road safety policies in African Union member countries. The research programme on road safety was launched in 2019 with funding and support from UK aid. It comprises eight research projects. The programme will also include the development of software to assess the effectiveness of road safety interventions.
In addition, DfID, which has been mentioned by several noble Lords, works on a number of different projects connected to road safety. For example, its £12.3 million ieConnect programme provides support to the World Bank Development Impact Evaluation initiative to undertake impact evaluation on transport, including road safety.
I realise that time is marching on and I have quite a lot more to say, particularly since I have picked this up at short notice from my noble friend Lady Vere. I may well need to answer a number of other questions, which I will most certainly do by letter, but I will jump ahead to say as a summary that the UK absolutely recognises the importance of improving road safety domestically and globally. We are working in many ways to achieve this, including, as I said, with other countries. We have achieved considerable results domestically in reducing deaths and serious injuries on our roads and there have been improvements around the world. However, as has been said, much more can be done, and we are committed to ensuring that the UK is part of the global effort for road safety. With that, I again thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for introducing this important issue for debate today.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that summing up and for his mastery of the brief at short notice. He has covered a lot of the points.
I referred in my opening remarks to my chairmanship of the Road Safety Foundation, but I should also have referred to my chairmanship of EEAST, a charity that deals with projects in central Asia and eastern Europe. The remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, about her experience in Iraq, and indeed my noble friend Lord Rosser’s reference to Saigon, illustrated that, in both rural and urban areas, the impact of motor traffic, often for the first time, on whole communities means that you have to take the whole community to you. The link I would make with the plea relating to the strategic goals is that until relatively recently neither DfID nor, even more so, the multilaterals had included road safety in their major development projects. That has changed and they have specific funds for it. DfID has been a leader in that, which I applaud, but it is also true that very substantial aid from this country, the European Union, the World Bank and other multilateral organisations goes to promoting the development of roads and rail infra- structure in those countries. It is important that safety is not an add-on, but is built in.
Part of building it in is taking the community with you. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, that the appreciation of British engagement in these matters is an important aspect of soft power and one that undoubtedly has a real benefit to the lives of those communities and the lives saved by such interventions.
I am also happy to thank the Minister for his references to the 10-year period of action, which is close to my 10-year strategic plan. I hope he takes on board some of the suggestions in relation to eyesight that the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, and the noble Lord, Lord Low, made. I had one disappointment in the Minister’s view in relation to that. Yes, there are technical difficulties in relation to eyesight and enforcement of whether or not you wear your glasses, but they are not insuperable. I believe this is an important part of saving lives and avoiding incidents on the roads domestically in the UK, and one on which other countries around the world would welcome British input. He should take seriously the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Low, of a dialogue with the Association of Optometrists. It is very important that this dimension is taken into account.
The general support for the work that the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, was intending to bring to our attention is welcome. I hope we see a follow-through in the coming years. I beg to move.
Windrush Lessons Learned Review
(4 years, 8 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat a Statement given by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary in the other place. The Statement is as follows:
“Mr Speaker, with permission, I would like to make a Statement on the long-awaited Windrush Lessons Learned Review. I dedicate this Statement today to the Windrush generation. I have personally been deeply moved by reading this report. Given the national significance of this issue, I have published this review immediately. I thank Wendy Williams and her team for the important work they have undertaken.
The Windrush Lessons Learned Review gives voice to members of the Windrush generation who arrived legally in the UK to help rebuild post-war Britain. These are the people who have done so much for this country, from staffing the NHS to rebuilding Britain. These are the very people who worked hard, paid their taxes and had every right to be in this country. They contributed to our communities, culture and society, helping our public services and economy thrive. They made our country stronger, more vibrant and more successful as a nation—which is why we were all shocked to discover that they and their families were subject to such insensitive treatment by the very country they called home.
As this review makes clear, some members of this generation suffered terrible injustices, spurred by institutional failings spanning successive Governments over several decades, including
“ignorance and thoughtlessness towards the issue of race and the history of the Windrush generation”.
Today’s publication is part of an ongoing mission to put this right and ensure that events such as this can never happen again, as there were far too many victims of Windrush.
Paulette Wilson was detained in an immigration removal centre and warned that she faced removal, after living in the UK for 50 years. She spent decades contributing to the UK, working for a time in this very House, yet was treated as a second-class citizen.
Junior Green had been in the UK for more than 60 years, raising children and grandchildren here, but after a holiday to Jamaica he was refused re-entry despite holding a passport confirming his right to be in the UK. The injustice that he suffered was compounded when, because of this action, he missed his mother’s funeral. Lives were ruined and families were torn apart, and now an independent review has suggested that the Home Office’s ‘institutional ignorance and thoughtlessness towards the issue of race and the history of the Windrush generation’ contributed to this. This is simply unacceptable.
I have heard people speak of ‘decision-making’ as a process—a process that grinds people down to the extent that it makes you want to give up. I have heard people speak of being dismissed, labelled as a group of people who just did not matter and whose voice on this issue was irrelevant. People have spoken to me about the indignity and inhumanity they still feel today from the experience of being made to feel unwelcome in their own country. They have described their experiences as unthinkable and unimaginable.
However, there are people across the UK, and even some members of this House—including myself and the Shadow Home Secretary—for whom this is unfortunately all too relatable. There are lessons to learn for the Home Office, but also for society as a whole. Despite the diverse and open nature of our country, too many people still feel that they may be treated differently because of who they are or where their parents came from. And today’s report, which suggests that in the Home Office there was an ‘institutional ignorance and thoughtlessness towards the issue of race and the history of the Windrush generation’, is worrying for us all.
In her report, Wendy Williams is clear that lessons must be learned at all levels and by all political parties. She describes a set of measures that evolved under Labour, coalition and Conservative Governments. These measures cover decades. She states that Ministers did not sufficiently question unintended consequences and that officials should and could have done more. But we must all look to ourselves. We must all do better at walking in other people’s shoes. We must all take responsibility for the failings that led to the unimaginable suffering of this generation.
Let me be clear. There is nothing that I can say today which will undo the pain, suffering and misery inflicted on the Windrush generation. What I can do is say that, on behalf of this and successive Governments, I am truly sorry for the actions that spanned decades; I am sorry that people’s trust has been betrayed; and we will continue to do everything possible to ensure that the Home Office protects, supports and listens to every single part of the community that it serves.
Action has already begun. In recent months, I have met and listened to people whose lives were shattered. Since 2018, we have launched measures to put right the wrongs caused to individual members of the Windrush generation. We have taken action through practical measures to give those who were affected the assistance, certainty, reassurance and support that they need.
The Commonwealth citizens task force goes into communities to help and support people to secure their legal status. Over 11,700 people have been granted a form of documentation that confirms their right to remain in the UK and guarantees their access to public services. Our vulnerable persons team has provided support to nearly 1,400 people, with approximately 120 people still receiving support. The team has supported over 360 people to secure access to benefits; and, to go some way to addressing the hardship suffered, the Home Office launched the Windrush compensation scheme.
This scheme was designed in close consultation with members of the community and with Martin Forde QC. Collectively, they have developed a compensation scheme that is straightforward to use and addresses the bespoke and personal circumstances and needs of every applicant, with dedicated caseworkers assessing claims as quickly as possible. There is no cap on payments, dozens of which have already been made, and we encourage more applications.
Over 100 community events have taken place so far. This includes more than 30 compensation scheme events across the country, from Southampton to Glasgow, Cardiff to Coventry. However, there are still people out there in need of our help whom we have not yet reached. That is why, in February, I extended the length of the compensation scheme by a further two years so that claims can be submitted until April 2023. I set up the Windrush stakeholder advisory group, to rebuild links with communities to ensure that they are supported through compensation, but also to rebuild the trust that has been broken.
Today, I can confirm that we will launch an expanded cross-government Windrush working group to develop programmes to improve the lives of those affected. That may be through employment programmes, dedicated mental health support and specialist education and training schemes. To make sure people know about the task force, the Windrush compensation scheme will have a dedicated new communications campaign promoting the scheme. We will also open a £500,000 fund for grass-roots organisations to promote these schemes, including provisions for specialist advice services. I would like to extend my personal thanks to Martin Forde QC for his support with the creation of the scheme.
I also want to put on the record my thanks to my predecessors, my right honourable friends the Members for Bromsgrove and Maidenhead, and the former Member for Hastings and Rye, who worked hard to understand and undo the suffering when these issues first came to light, and to other members of this House, including the Members for Tottenham and Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford, who shone a necessary light on this injustice. I also want to thank the thousands of civil servants at the Home Office and across government who work tirelessly every single day, in challenging and demanding jobs, to keep the public and our country safe. Whether on the front line or working to develop policies for the future, their commitment to create a safer country for us all is commendable. Since these injustices were brought to light, civil servants have used every endeavour to right the wrongs, giving people their correct status and supporting them in their financial compensation claims. However, it would be wrong for the department to ignore Wendy Williams’s finding that the Home Office’s ‘institutional ignorance and thoughtlessness towards the issue of race and the history of the Windrush generation’ contributed to this. This is not something that can be resolved with an apology or compensation. I will review the recommendations that Wendy Williams makes in relation to the way the Home Office operates as an organisation. I will continue to look closely at its leadership, culture, practices, and the way it views the communities it serves.
Over the coming months, myself and Matthew Rycroft, the new Permanent Secretary, will work together with our dedicated staff at all levels to review and reflect on the recommendations, including those relating to compliant environment policies and cultural change. Fundamentally I want to make the Home Office a better place to work. This will include a clarification of the department’s purpose, mission and values, putting at its heart fairness, dignity and respect. We will put people before process. The publication of this review is a small but vital step towards ensuring that the Home Office is trusted by all the people it serves. I would encourage anyone who thinks they have been affected by the Windrush scandal, or who requires support or assistance, to come forward. I will bring forward a detailed formal response in the next six months, as Wendy Williams recommended, representing a new chapter for the Home Office.
Let me assure this House that everyone at the Home Office will be asking the difficult questions needed to ensure that these circumstances can never arise again.
I commend this Statement to the House.”
Lord Rosser (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made in the Commons. There is, of course, a marked disparity between the speed with which this review has been published and the lack of speed with which the report on—for example —Russian interference in elections has appeared, a marked disparity for which there is no obvious explanation.
We cannot overstate how damning this review has been of the Government’s
“institutional ignorance and thoughtlessness towards the issue of race”.
The way in which individuals and families were wrongly deported and deprived of their livelihoods caused enormous suffering. Now it can only be right that the Government pave the way for a complete change in how the Home Office operates, but apparently the Government cannot say that the recommendations of the review will be delivered in full in the most appropriate timeframe possible. That seemed to be the message of the Statement. There would at least be some satisfaction if we could say that the Government had attempted effectively to make amends.
However, I believe I am right in saying that last month, new migration statistics showed that fewer than one in 20 Windrush compensation claimants had received compensation. From that, it would seem clear that the Government are still failing the Windrush victims, at least in that regard, both in terms of the number of people the compensation is reaching and the level of payouts for lives disrupted or destroyed. Can the Government say how they will ensure that further victims receive the compensation they deserve, and receive it speedily?
On the wider issue of the hostile environment, can the Government today mark a change in direction and agree to put an end to this policy, beginning by ending deportation flights for foreign national offenders who have lived here since childhood, committing that the historic case review will include those who have committed offences, and keeping open the compensation scheme for as long as necessary?
One of the more damning lines of the report was that the scandal was “foreseeable and avoidable”. Scandals which will further arise if the Government continue with the hostile environment policy are also foreseeable and avoidable. Renaming the policy, which the Government have sought to do, does not bring about the necessary culture change. Even the executive summary of the report—I am sure that the Minister will not be entirely surprised if I say that I have not read all 275 pages of it—says that
“the Home Office … must change its culture to recognise that migration and wider Home Office policy is about people and, whatever its objective, should be rooted in humanity.”
It is a fairly damning statement on the present state of affairs for that to appear as a part of this review.
We do not want similar issues arising over citizenship rights in the light of our withdrawal from the EU, and neither will a future immigration policy based on devaluing the value and skills of many people help the situation, particularly when some of those so-called low-skilled and insufficiently paid personnel are now deemed to be vital key workers in the present crisis when it comes to continuing school provision for their children.
I hope that the Government will take very seriously the recommendations in this report and the three elements into which they have been broken down in the last paragraph of the executive summary. It is disappointing that we may well have to wait some time to hear what the Government’s response is. However, clearly there needs to be a significant change in culture, and it needs to come quickly if we are to avoid further scandals—I use that word—of the kind we have seen over the Windrush generation.
Baroness Ludford (LD)
My Lords, the fact that this report has now been published is of course welcome, and I thank Wendy Williams; the timing is however less than optimal. I also thank the journalist Amelia Gentlemen, without whose brilliant and dogged investigative work the report would not have happened.
In the Government’s response, which is promised within six months, we on these Benches want the assurance of a thorough overhaul of the culture of disbelief and carelessness in the Home Office, so that its attitudes, assumptions and processes around immigration are, in the words of the report, “rooted in humanity”, which is not the case at the moment. The Home Secretary surely cannot have needed this review to become aware of what the report calls the
“ignorance and thoughtlessness towards the issue of race and the history of the Windrush generation within the department, which are consistent with some elements of the definition of institutional racism.”
That sounds like a very carefully negotiated sentence.
Surprisingly, the Statement says that
“we were all shocked to discover”
the insensitive treatment of the Windrush generation. That is not credible. The whole point of the hostile environment was to be brutal and send a harsh, intolerant message. As the report says, the consequences were foreseeable and avoidable, and warning signs were not heeded by officials or Ministers. It was a profound institutional failure. The scandal and the blighting of lives are not just down to staff mistakes and poor decisions, because the tone was set from the top. However, if retraining is needed then we need to hear what is happening on that front.
The Home Secretary failed to give my colleague in the other place, Wendy Chamberlain, the guarantee she sought that for the sake of public health during the coronavirus crisis no data would be passed from the NHS to the Home Office for immigration purposes, otherwise migrants with uncertain status could be deterred from seeking care or treatment. I now ask for clarity on such a guarantee. Will the Government also commit to scrapping the right-to-rent law, which, as has been shown by the Joint Council for the Welfare of Immigrants, causes landlords to discriminate against people from the BAME communities and/or who do not have a British passport?
To avoid a budding new Windrush scandal, will the Government now commit to automatically guaranteeing the rights of EU citizens to stay? Something that the report highlighted was the lack of documentary evidence that the Windrush generation had. We have persistently and consistently asked that EU citizens should at least get documentary proof.
Lastly, my noble friend Lady Hamwee, who very much wishes she could have been here today, tells me that last week when she visited a school to talk to sixth-formers about Parliament and her work, they wanted to discuss immigration issues. She was critical of Home Office culture. A teacher who was sitting in out of interest could not contain herself: she told my noble friend and the students that, as a Canadian, it had taken her 10 years to get the right to be here and that the way she had been treated by the Home Office, especially at Lunar House, was the worst experience of her life.
I really hope that the Home Office will have a thorough transformation of its culture, so that it acts as a welcome to migrants who we wish to make part of our society, as well as exercising firm and fair immigration control.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, for the points that they have made. Both of them questioned the timing. It is absolutely right to say that because of COVID-19 we are in very strange times. I think that the Home Secretary was absolutely right to publish the report within a day of receiving it; both Houses have been clamouring for this report to be published and she has done just that.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about the recommendations being delivered in full. One thing that comes out of this thoughtful report are the words of Wendy Williams herself, who says:
“It is, in my view, extremely important that the department undertakes a period of profound reflection on the areas identified in this report … to identify what they think needs to change, and how.”
For the Home Secretary to take a view on that the following day in a knee-jerk way would be wrong. She is perfectly right to reflect on it and to respond in a considered way.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, talked about one in 20 claimants receiving compensation. One thing that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary said today is that not only will people receive full compensation but there will not be a cap on compensation. We are trying to process the claims as quickly as possible, and payments are being made. We are trying to reach out to people. I talked about the community events that have been taking place, and the communications campaign that my right honourable friend and I talked about today will be going on. We are making interim payments on some claims where we can resolve parts of the claim much more quickly than other parts to ensure that claimants receive their awards as quickly as possible. Some cases are more complex than others, and it is right that we take the time to ensure that they are settled properly. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about further victims receiving compensation. We will absolutely be reaching out to those people. We want everybody who deserves compensation to receive it.
The noble Lord also touched upon further deportations. Of course, deportations are referenced in this, and they go far wider than Windrush, but my right honourable friend the Home Secretary stated today that no Windrush people were deported on the recent flight about which there was debate in this House and the other place. On deportations generally, the Home Secretary would breach her obligations under the UK Borders Act 2007 were she not to deport people eligible for deportation.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, also asked about keeping the compensation scheme open for longer. As I said in my Statement, the Home Secretary said earlier that it will be open until April 2023, so that is another three years.
The noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, asked why we cannot make the EU settlement scheme declaratory. It is precisely because the Windrush people were almost under that declaratory system that they could not prove that they had the right to be here, and it was when people were having to prove their right of settled status that things began to unravel. Of course, digital status now means that that status is on the record for ever.
The Archbishop of Canterbury
My Lords, the publication of this Statement is very welcome indeed. The heartfelt nature of the apology was notable.
I have a couple of questions about the recommendations to put to the noble Baroness. First, one of the historic failures of the Church of England—in many ways as bad as the hostile environment—was the terrible reception that we gave the Windrush generation, the vast majority of whom were Anglicans, when they came here. They were often turned away from Church of England churches, or were given a very weak welcome or no welcome at all. As a result, they went off and formed their own churches, which have flourished much better than ours. We would be so much stronger had we behaved correctly. I have apologised for that, and I continue to do so and see the wickedness of our actions.
However, the recommendations, particularly recommendations 7 and 8, talk about reconciliation and understanding the nature of the groups being dealt with by the Home Office. Will it consider bringing in, talking with and using the services of the black-majority church leaders, often Pentecostal church leaders, who have been gracious, wise and strong in upholding their communities? They have much to teach us.
The same point is to be made on recommendation 6, which talks about the history and the need to understand colonial history. Many of these people will now be in their 80s and 90s; capturing the live voice of those with long experiences in this country and who have contributed so much is now time limited.
Recommendations 14 and 17, on the values statement and the ethical standards, come straight back to the need for culture change in the Home Office. I am only too aware of how hard that is in any institution. In the values statement and in the way in which the ethical standards are set out, will there be metrics and clear, tangible tests rather than mere expressions of good intent so that it can be reflected on?
Finally, I ask that the emphasis on a people-centred approach continue. As the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, said so clearly and well, there is a profound need to avoid repetition through having a people-centred system.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I thank the most reverend Primate for those points. He has educated me this afternoon because I did not realise that the Church of England gave the Windrush generation such an awful reception. It feels a bit like a confessional at the moment, but it is reflected in the report that we all need to look to ourselves to see where we have gone wrong. The report is not a blame game but a narrative over almost 70 years of where everyone failed these people. The Home Secretary has not replied to the recommendations yet—one would not expect her to—but I will certainly take those points on the recommendations back. Reconciliation can bring out some wonderful things; in learning about people’s history, you understand people so much better. I will take those points back, and the Secretary of State will respond in full before the Summer Recess.
Lord Bates (Con)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for bringing this review to the House so promptly and for the tone and content of the Statement. As a former Minister at the Home Office, between 2014 and 2016, I add my sense of regret at the failings that happened during that time and for the people affected in the report. Does my noble friend agree with me that one of the profound things about the report is that the story is told not through legalese and dry analysis, as is often the case, but through personal stories of individuals whose lives have been affected? It is a model and type that we should seek to follow. It reminds us that public policy is not just process; it is about people, first of all.
An important element in the Statement states:
“We must all look to ourselves. We must all do better at walking in other people’s shoes.”
That seems profoundly important as we go forward and address legislation in the future. In that regard—this is not something that I am looking for an answer to now—will my noble friend take this away? There is currently before another place the Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill—a new government Bill. Probably one of the best ways of honouring the victims and survivors and addressing the heartfelt apology to the people affected by the failings of the past will be to try to find some way, as we take that Bill through, for the Home Office to reflect the humanity and the people first.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I thank my noble friend. Like he does, I feel regret for the failings, which are so well reflected. Without pinning blame or naming and shaming, it is an incredible document. I confess that I have not read it all thoroughly, but what I have read is absolutely gripping. It is a narrative of people’s lives over 70 years—personal stories, as my noble friend says. When he talks about future legislation, particularly that immigration Bill, it reflects the points made by the most reverend Primate about checking who we are by the legislation that we bring forward. That is a really helpful point, which I will take back. This review by Wendy Williams will almost form a textbook for the future, for people to learn from. It is so moving, with so many stories. I thank my noble friend for that.