Commons Chamber

Wednesday 25th June 2025

(began 4 hours, 43 minutes ago)

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11:34
None Portrait Oral questions: Science, Innovation and Technology
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Order. Order. Order.
11:34
None Portrait Q1. What steps his Department is taking to improve the distribution of high speed internet provision. (904803)
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Order. Order. We Order. Order. We start Order. Order. We start with questions to the Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology.
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Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)
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I talked about the creative industries issue as part of the bid last week at the point was made that Belfast is a great sector for innovation and creative dishes but that must extend throughout the whole of Northern Ireland and that whole of Northern Ireland and that point is well made. -- Creative industries. The digital action plan is something The digital action plan is something I am proud of and this morning I was I am proud of and this morning I was able to lodge the IT Reuse for Good Charter because one thing that is Charter because one thing that is problematic for many families is they don't have a device and so I they don't have a device and so I would urge every person in the House to get every business to sign up for to get every business to sign up for the charter to get the bases to be people that really need them.

-- people that really need them. -- Devices. Digital exclusion and inclusion can vary widely between households and communities. Often it households and communities. Often it affects low income, rural and affects low income, rural and coastal communities, with them left behind. What steps are taken to ensure the Labour action plan reaches all communities, equipping reaches all communities, equipping everyone with the tools that they need? Strong point. We must get into every community and to have a digital government, we must have a digital nation and we cannot have some excluded from that.

That is why we have announced £600 million for the Innovation Fund this year and I hope local authorities have innovative ideas to break down the barriers to digital inclusion. barriers to digital inclusion. Topicals, starting with Patrick Hurley.

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The Department is determined to make the UK the best place in the world for science and technology. world for science and technology. The Spending Review admitted it is £6 billion last week to R&D, enabling every aspect of the tech economy to fire on all cylinders and republish the Digital and Technology Sector Plan as part of the Industrial Plant backing quantum,
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Maria Eagle Portrait Rt Hon Maria Eagle MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Liverpool Garston, Labour)
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Thank you Mr Speaker. The UK will purchase 12 new F-35A fighter jets, and join NATO's dual capable aircraft mission in a major boost for national security. The Prime Minister has announced at the NATO summit that the UK intends to buy at least a dozen of the dual capable aircraft which can carry both nuclear and conventional weapons. The NATO Secretary-General Mark Rutte has said this morning the UK has declared its nuclear deterrent to NATO for many decades, I strongly welcome today's announcement that the UK will now also joined NATO's nuclear mission and procure the F- 35A.

The decision will support 20,000 jobs in the F-35 program in the UK with 15% of the global supply chain for the Jets based in Britain supporting Haile's jobs and opportunities for working people and delivering a defence dividend across the country. The announcement responds to two recommendations in the Strategic Defence Review, recommendation 30, and recommendation 46, that the UK commenced discussions on the potential benefits and feasibility of enhanced participation in NATO's nuclear mission. And about the mix of F-35 a and B.

It also reintroduces a nuclear role for the Royal Air Force for the first time as the UK retired its sovereign L launched nuclear following the end of the Cold War. The U.K.'s commitment to NATO is unquestionable, as is the alliance contribution to keeping the UK safe and secure. We must all step up to protect the Euro-Atlantic area for generations to come.
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James Cartlidge Portrait James Cartlidge MP (South Suffolk, Conservative)
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Thank you for granting this UQ. You will recall that the government planned announcement today to secure F-35A's was briefly covered in the Sunday Times newspaper the day before the STI was published. We received no meaningful answers at all, and I hope the blister can be more forthcoming today. I wrote in the Express on 24 May that our nuclear forces needed to be even more resilient including potentially by diversifying and methods for delivering nuclear strike. The reason for this is that we have to recognise the threat posed by Russia in particular, and its ability to operate nuclear weapons at tactical and theatre levels, to deter effectively, we must be able to do the same.

In principle I welcome this announcement have the following questions. What if the anticipated in-service date for the F-35 as? Will they in-service or that we occurring after delivery? We know they will be ordered instead of F- 35Bs, but will the government still order the remaining F-35Bs as planned? How will they be refuelled given that the current operational sovereignty issues, we are committed to a strong military partnership with United States given this is about diversity of delivery, has the Department given any thought to additional tactical options where we have greater industrial input, i.e.

Storm Shadow typhoon? Ironically it was Lord Robertson as defence secretary in 1998 who removed our last Air Force nuclear capabilities and it is noteworthy that as one of the authors of the SDR, he said to the select committee that they the authors were "Not terribly enthusiastic about it. " On this side of the house, we wholeheartedly back in nuclear deterrence. Doesn't this show why we need a robust plan to get to 3% on defence in this Parliament rather than Labour's smoke and mirrors plan a lack of fully funded planning to properly reach defence spending? reach defence spending?
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Richard Tice Portrait Richard Tice MP (Boston and Skegness, Reform UK)
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the Ten Minute Rule Motion and we have got Richard Tice.

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I beg to move that leave be given in this House to bring in a Bill to make provision for the general public to require and petition that public to require and petition that the criminal cases review commission should review cases where petitioners believe sentences handed petitioners believe sentences handed down our either too lenient or too harsh and also make provision for the review of such sentences and make provision for the referral of make provision for the referral of such cases by the Commission to the Court of Appeal, or the Supreme Court of Appeal, or the Supreme Court.

And for connected purposes. Before looking at the provisions, I Before looking at the provisions, I would ask you to join me in a journey of imagination to a respected distant democracy with an elected leader, an independent judiciary, respected, and a judiciary, respected, and a respected legal system, and where there has historically been confidence amongst the people of the democracy for this judicial and legal system. Then imagine a bad legal system. Then imagine a bad event occurs and the elected leader of that distant democracy effectively instructs the judiciary to impose the harshest of possible sentences on potential transgressors.

The consequence of which is that... Imagine someone in a fit of anger puts out an offensive, inappropriate bad tweet for of yours, comes down, apologises, and withdraws that online and tweet. But then, because of that, they are charged and sentenced in a very serious way. Potentially a sentence of 31 months, that may be significantly more than the sentence given to a shoplifter, rubber, mugger, drug dealer, and the like. -- robber.

The thing about confidence in the legal system is the comparison of sentences and so imagine that the individual, whilst in prison, is allegedly the recipient of some violent maltreatment in prison, including being manhandled to the ground, handcuffed, to the point where bruises are significantly present five days later on their hands. Imagine them being dragged out up by three flights of stairs to the wing for naughty girls, having been a prisoner who was promised to be taken to be good girls when.

This is the consequence in a distant democracy where you think this cannot be valid but, with regret, I must bring you back to the reality of the situation, that this is the UK and in the last few months this UK and in the last few months this That is why I bring this coming bill to the House under the Ten Minute Rule Bill. It is known outside of this House as Lucy's bill. Because confidence in our judicial system and the sentences that are handed out is absolutely vital.

I believe the public, they want to trust our system but justice works when it is natural and fair and decent and the public believe sentences are appropriate. If we lose that then potentially we lose everything. We are all human, even noble experienced, wise judges can get things wrong. And there is a system of appeal. It may be what we need Mr Speaker and that is why the provisions of this bill are so important, maybe the public would have evermore confidence in a vibrant democracy, in our justice system if there was like a system of a troubled check safeguard of the sentences.

So that without being able to hinge on the original judgement that is following a case but actually let's say Mr Speaker, 500 members of the public, if they signed a petition to ask the Criminal Cases Review Commission of to reconsider the sentence and if they felt within eight weeks that sentence may be too lenient or too harsh, they could then refer it to an appropriate course. I think that would give an extra level of trust and confidence in the fairness and the comparative appropriateness of sentences within our system.

The sentences within our system. The responses I believe -- the response is I believe Mr Speaker, people would believe this is a democracy and justice system which works for all. With the appropriate safeguards. It is for that reason Mr Speaker, I bring this bill to the House. And I believe it is worthy of further debate, consideration and

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discussion. Thank you. The honourable member have leave

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The honourable member have leave to bring in the bill. The question is the honourable member have leave to bring in the bill. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye". Of the contrary, "No". The ayes have it. contrary, "No". The ayes have it. The ayes have it. He will prepare and bring in the bill?

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and bring in the bill? Mr Speaker, Nigel Farage, Lee Anderson, several poaching, James

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Criminal Criminal Cases Criminal Cases Review Criminal Cases Review (Public

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Petition) Bill. Second Reading what day? Friday, 11 July for

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Friday, 11 July. We now come to the motion on the estimate for the the motion on the estimate for the Ministry of Justice. I called the Minister to move the motion formerly.
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Andy Slaughter Portrait Andy Slaughter MP (Hammersmith and Chiswick, Labour)
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capacity, coupled with the backlog in the Crown courts in over 74,000 cases. Investment and reform required. The Ministry of Justice suffer some of the most severe budget cuts of any department during the years of Tory austerity. In 2023/24 its resource expenditure level was 11% less than it had been in 2010/11 in real terms. I would therefore like to welcome the Labour government investment in the criminal justice system and now through the Main Estimates Act also through the spending review.

The main Estimates confirmed the MoJ day-to-day spending is set to increase by 793 million, or 6.5%. Which includes further investment in the prisons and probation service and in the Courts and Tribunals Service. The MoJ investment capital spending also said to increase by 351 million or over 20%. Largely driven by investment in creating new prison places and major projects maintain port capacity and invest in digital systems and securities. The Spending Review also announced the following. £7 billion were allocated between 2024 and 25 and 2029 to 2030 to support the delivery of 14,000 urgently needed new prison places by 2031.

An increase of up to 700 million per year for the Probation Service by 2028/29. Compared with 2025/26. This is especially important given the recommendations made by David talks Independent Sentencing Review which I will come unto any moment. And up to 450 million per year in additional investment in the Court system by 2028/29 aimed at increasing Crown courts sitting days. And implementing the forthcoming recommendations from Sir Brian Everson's Independent Review on the courts. Which is set to deliver its first report next month.

Combining the estimates and Spending Review presents a large positive picture for investment in the MoJ. The Estimates free resource expenditure in 25/26 is 14% more than the spending plan for 2024/25. This increase may help to offset some of the underfunding the Department was subject to in the 2010s. The estimates for capital expenditure in 25/26 is 32% more than the plans for the year 24/25. This will be a record high level of capital spending to the MoJ -- expenditure for the MoJ over the course of the financial year.

It remains to be seen whether this funding will be enough to address the challenges of the criminal justice system faces -- that the criminal justice system faces. Due to time I will focus my speech on the three key areas, prison Reformation, the courts and legal aid. His Majesty Prison and Probation Service, HMPPS is the largest body within the MoJ in terms of expenditure. It makes up 47% of the MoJ's day-to-day spending budget. And in the 25/26 will make up 82% of its planned capital spending.

The prison population is more than doubled over the last 30 years. And it stands at around 88,000. It continues to grow year- on-year and is a record high. If wings continue as they are the prison population will be 93.5 thousand by September 2026. And over 100,000 by September 2028. For which there will not be sufficient places. The MoJ cites the following increases, increasing police charging activity and ability to put them in the courts. Ability to remand will now make up an astonishing 20% of the prison publishing.

The changes in sentencing policy which keep the more serious offenders in prison for much longer, I welcome the Lord Chancellor's commitment to build 14,000 prison places by 2031. I hope this will ensure emergency measures as in SDS40 which saw prisoners released automatically having served 14% of their service last year do not have to be used again. It is in the context of the prisons capacity crisis that the government commissioned the Sentencing Review conducted by David or which reported last month and he gave evidence to the committee last week.

Many of the reviews and recommendations have accepted the improvement of the government. This includes recommendations for the model of sentencing called the earned progression model. Which can see some prisoners who are serving fixed term sentences released after serving one third of their sentence. Dependent on their behaviour. This recommendation and others within the review are aimed at making great use of non-custodial sentences and therefore attempting to reduce the prison population. I look forward to seeing the detail of how the commendations will be implemented.

In the forthcoming Sentencing Bill. Non-custodial sentences will place an additional burden on the already struck -- struggling Probation Service, to which I will now turn. Just before I do that could I issue a cautionary note. Even if David talks recommendations are wholly successful, the prisons will still be full. And this has unintended consequences. It means for example prisoners have to be slotted into places where they become available. Rehabilitation is more difficult. Sky News reported recently they are put into lower category prizes, sea and the category prisons years before they should have been in terms of their sentence.

And the prison escorts service which is already a part of the state is often bringing prisoners late to Court because they are not available in their local prisons. Anything that can be done for effective community punishment -- effective community punishment and rehabilitation is clearly good. Of course I will. Four

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With 80% of offenders being reoffenders doesn't that show our reoffenders doesn't that show our current system is really very broken and we need a different approach and and we need a different approach and would my honourable friend degree would my honourable friend degree the opportunities we have -- agree the opportunities we have with the Sentencing Review can keep our communities safer by properly addressing reoffending?

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addressing reoffending? She is absolute right. We are

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She is absolute right. We are relying on the Court review and the implemented of the recommendations to do two things. Firstly to make sure there is capacity in the sure there is capacity in the prisons for the growing number of people who are being sentenced in people who are being sentenced in our courts but also the longer term, to reduce down prison numbers by to reduce down prison numbers by effective rehabilitation. That can take place in prisons but not in overcrowded prisons on the whole.

It can take place more effectively in can take place more effectively in the community by way of getting people back into normal daily life. people back into normal daily life. Prison certainly is not. On that Prison certainly is not. On that vein let me continue by talking about the Probation Service. I say it will see an additional £700 million per year to support the million per year to support the review and the reforms in the Sentencing Review. That is a substantial increase in funding.

It is intended to enable probation to supervise more people in the community and expand electronic tagging. Probation Service currently manages 240,000 individuals on Court order or licence. Worryingly last year in annual report showed the HMS probation labelled 10 local services as requiring improvement and 40 as inadequate. Identifying staffing and unmanageable workloads, deficit of workplace and insufficient management risk the public protection and safeguarding. It also found outstanding statutory victim work, commitment and vision from staff as some good partnership working and our committee has seen this themselves on their visits to the probation services.

I would however like to raise my particular concern around the ability of the current electronic tagging provider Serco. To deal with the dramatic increase in demand on their services. That will inevitably result from the Sentencing Bill. The committee has been infrequent -- has been in frequent correspondence with the prisons Minister to raise our concerns regarding the poor performance of Serco. This has also been highlighted by Channel 4 and their dispatches program. The committee have identified several issues with management of the tagging contract including substantial delays to the fitting of tags even to serious offenders.

We were shocked to learn financial penalties have a levy on Serco every month since they took over the service in May 2024. It is unclear to me how Serco will be able to deal with increased demand given their unacceptable performance when managing the electronic tagging service at its current level. I would like to briefly say something about the conditions of the prison estate. In 2023 HM Chief Inspector it of prisons Charlie Taylor said one in 10 prisons should be closed down.

He stated at around 14 victim Tory and Giles -- Victorian jails were so poorly designed, overcrowded and ill-equipped they could not provide proper accommodation. Last year 63% of prisoners reported overcrowding. Which is often with two or more prisoners in a cell which is designed for one person. With no private toilet facilities. Drugs are an increasing problem in prison and the committee has covered this extensively tackling drugs in prison inquiry which is due to prison inquiry which is due to Between April 2023 and 2024 there were almost...

Aged 18 and over in prison settings. In the 12 months to December 2024 there were 10,600 assaults on prison staff, violence is also on the increase in prisons, partly the result of the By the abundance of drugs available. Equivalent to 122 assaults per 1,000 prisoners, an increase of 13 percent from the previous years, the highest number of assaults on prison staff recorded in one year. The use of force by prison officers and rates of self-harm on prisoners have been increasing in recent years, self- harm is 10 percent higher in 2024 than in 2023.

Overcrowding, increased drug use, violence and self-harm contribute towards the distressing environment for prisoners. Rehabilitating can be almost impossible in some institutions. We are undertaking a major inquiry into rehabilitation and resettlement which I hope will shed more light on these troubling pictures. We have the continuing scandal of IPP prisoners. There has to be, I recommend to the Minister the report published this week by the Howard league on a new approach to IPP prisoners which would serve to reduce the numbers continuing into custody.

Let me turn to the court service and HMCTS, the second largest body in the MoJ. Spending on HMCTS accounted for 21 percent of planned spending and capital spending. The backlog stands at around 74,000, result of a number of factors, one of which is the shortage of criminal lawyers, driven by low legal aid pay rates and poor working conditions. Backlog in the cause is detrimental to thousands of people, victims, witnesses and defenders. Wait in limbo for

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justice. I'm grateful to the honourable and learned gentlemen giving way. He and learned gentlemen giving way. He raises an important point around court battles, another important factor is having magistrates, legal factor is having magistrates, legal advisers, et cetera to hear these cases. The magistrates Association raised concerns that the review is

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raised concerns that the review is insufficient to tackle that. Does he share their concerns? I do share those concerns. I do

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I do share those concerns. I do not have time, I will take a few more minutes with my speech, to go more minutes with my speech, to go into what is happening in their magistrates' courts, it is a debate for another day. But shortage of magistrates, shortage of legal clerks, and low pay rates across HMCTS is one of the factors which is HMCTS is one of the factors which is meaning we cannot get to grips with this backlog, even though I have no doubt the government wishes to do doubt the government wishes to do that.

I welcome the Lord that. I welcome the Lord Chancellor's allocation of 110,000 sitting days in the Crown Court in 2025 /26, the highest sitting day 2025 /26, the highest sitting day 2025 /26, the highest sitting day made since HMCTS was created. I hope made since HMCTS was created. I hope this makes some reduction in the backlog, however I note that the allegation is below the 113,000 days that they told the committee there Crown Court would sit for in the last financial year.

There have been similar increases in sitting dates or other cause, including magistrates' courts. The and acknowledge the allocation of days is not enough on its own to severely reduce the backlog in the Crown courts and more radical reform is required. I welcome the independent review of course which will propose options for short-term and long-term reform, aimed at ensuring cases are dealt with proportionately in line with current pressures on the Crown Court. And exploring how the courts operate as efficiently as possible.

I look forward to the first report of the review due to be published next month. I would like to conclude by briefly touching on the role of the Legal Aid Agency. In terms of expenditure, the LMAA is the third largest body in the MoJ, the budget of around 0.9 billion, made eight percent of the MoJ's total resource percent of the MoJ's total resource budget. But between -- 2009 and 2010, the spending decreased. I am surprised that was not a review of the Legal Aid Agency, the only context was the efficiency savings in the MoJ in the period.

There have been concerns about the sustainability of the legal aid sector, the number of legal aid firms, and the number of barristers practising in this area. In March 2025, the Law Society said the number of criminal duty solicitors had fallen by 26 percent since 2017. This may in the future leave many individuals unable to access their right to free advice. I welcome the MoJ announcement in December 2024 for the additional 90 million per year for criminal aid solicitors, I look forward to seeing the results of their consultation on this.

It may well not be enough and the 15 percent uplift in barristers fees as percent uplift in barristers fees as a consequence of the review took so long to come in and so far overtaken by the increase in costs that that needs to be looked at again in the future if we are to sustain the

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criminal bar. I am grateful to the honourable member for giving way. On the subject of lack of legal aid solicitors and barristers, does my honourable friend agree with me that honourable friend agree with me that that is only going to compound the problems of the court backlog, problems of the court backlog, giving cases will either have to be adjourned as a consequence of lack of legal counsel or where defendants of legal counsel or where defendants are appearing without legal counsel, those cases tend to take longer those cases tend to take longer because the very nature of it is that those defendants will need more time from other court services and

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time from other court services and is my honourable friend concerned about that? This is already happening. Nonavailability of counsel, CPS or Nonavailability of counsel, CPS or Defence Council is already one of Defence Council is already one of the main reasons for ineffective trial. I'm hoping the Minister will have something about that, and the have something about that, and the government's plans to alleviate it. I briefly mentioned the cyber attack I briefly mentioned the cyber attack that the Legal Aid Agency was subject to in April, it revealed concerns regarding the robustness of government manage digital services government manage digital services and the protection of data.

It holds risks of the day-to-day operation of the justice system and I think we need, not day -- today perhaps, but soon, the further statement the courts Minister promised in relation to the further steps taken to recover that position. The committee will be conducting its own inquiry into access to justice, beginning with a court of evidence this summer. I would like to conclude by re-emphasising the importance of the Criminal Justice System plays in their proper functioning in our society. Our society should not be out of mind in this respect.

I appreciate the steps this government is taking and the struggle of the task has going forward, but there is so much to do that we need to get on with this in a speedy fashion. Finally, let me say thank you to all of those who were in the Criminal Justice System, those who risk their lives and safety on the frontline, prison officers and probation officers, those who keep the system running, judges, barristers, court staff, across the PCC people going above and beyond because of the situation it has been left in.

I would like to say that I am sure this is from both sides of the House, we all appreciate the work that goes on everyday to keep people that goes on everyday to keep people
13:55
Ashley Fox Portrait Sir Ashley Fox MP (Bridgwater, Conservative)
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The Chancellor substantially increase the budget of the Ministry of Justice in the spending review

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from £11.9 billion in 2023/24, two The Chancellor substantially increase the budget of the Ministry increase the budget of the Ministry from £11.9 billion in 2023/24, £215.6 billion in 2028/29. We are told it is a real terms increase, told it is a real terms increase, 3.1 percent over five years. It is our duty in this place not just to applaud ever larger sums of money being spent, but also to scrutinise that that money is spent well and it represents good value for money for the taxpayer.

There is no question that the Criminal Justice System is under strain. I trust the Lord Chancellor will do her best to ensure that she uses their money wisely to fix the various problems wisely to fix the various problems the chairman of the Select Committee has described. One of the biggest problems facing the Criminal Justice System is the Crown Court backlog. As of the end of 2024, there were almost 75,000 cases awaiting trial. This is an increase on the figure when the Lord Chancellor took office.

And the figure is projected to rise further. Justice delayed is to rise further. Justice delayed is justice denied. Witnesses memories justice denied. Witnesses memories fade and victims feel they have been forgotten. I appreciate that much of forgotten. I appreciate that much of this rise was caused by the pandemic and we are still dealing with the fallout. But the Lord Chancellor must do more to reduce that backlog. While there is more money for the cause as part of the spending review, we need to ensure it is effectively deployed.

The government says it is a priority, yet we still have empty court rooms. When the honourable lady Chief Justice came to Parliament last November, she offered 6,500 additional sitting dates. Can the Minister explain why the Lord Chancellor did not accept every single one of those extra days that was offered? The Lord Chancellor must use the additional money she has been given to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of crown and magistrates' courts and reduce the backlogs? The justice system also faces a lack of prison spaces.

The Gauke review, commissioned by the Lord Chancellor, has effectively recommended the ending of short prison sentences in favour of community sentences. About half of admissions to prison of all sentences of less than 12 months. Howard Lee says about 30,000 people a year are sentenced to six months or less. Setting aside for one moment as to whether this is the right policy, which I doubt, if it is implemented by the government, it will require a very large increase in the number of probation officers.

Happy to give way.

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I thank my honourable friend for giving way. While he talks about probation and prison places, does he share my concern that it is all very share my concern that it is all very well for the government to announce £7 billion to deliver prison places by 2031, which is six years away, by 2031, which is six years away, while 16,000 prisoners are walking the streets because they were the streets because they were released early by this government. What will happen in the next six years? More prisoners released early

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years? More prisoners released early where we wait for these prison places? I thinking for his intervention. The danger is the public lose The danger is the public lose confidence in the Criminal Justice System if prisoners are released so early. There is already a shortfall early. There is already a shortfall of nearly 2,000 probation officers. of nearly 2,000 probation officers. There are now 200 fewer probation officers than when Labour took officers than when Labour took office. If the government intends to go ahead with this plan, we need to know how they plan to recruit the know how they plan to recruit the additional probation officers that they will need? What is their plan? If they go ahead with abolishing short sentences, those community sentences are going to have to be seen to be really tough and seen to be really tough and worthwhile by the public if the Criminal Justice System is to retain confidence.

I fear the government does not have a plan for that. While we see there is more money in the budget allocated for Prison and Probation Service is, we do not get any detail about what this means in terms of recruiting those extra probation officers. I would be grateful if the Minister could address that. I would also like the government to look at other methods of alleviating the strain on prison places that do not involve additional expenditure. For example deporting foreign national offenders.

There are currently 11,000 foreign offenders in our prisons. But our record on deporting them remains poor. Only 3,500 of them were deported last year. Too many are still able to avoid deportation by using the ECHR. This deportation by using the ECHR. This The government has said they will review the right family life and in serious cases related to asylum seekers who have been convicted of sexual offences. I welcome that. But we need to go much further. In my view we should report all foreign national offenders --....

To make sure we have enough prison spaces is actually to build more prisons. And during the General Election campaign the party opposite promised to build 20,000 additional places. But since the years they took office, little progress has been made. And it has been revealed recently they have actually cut hundreds of millions of pounds from the capital budget to cover the cost of pay increases for staff and the imposition of the Chancellor's jobs tax. It is tempting to welcome an increase in a department's budget.

But we need to make sure the spending is matched by proper accountability and proper planning. We cannot afford for this new funding to be simply absorbed by the justice bureaucracy. Will the Minister explain how much the extra money is -- his department has been allocated will go in to additional national insurance charges, rises and inflation? It is simply not credible to make countless premises in opposition or on the campaign trail only to quietly shelve those when in office.

-- Promises in opposition. People hold the government to account for the commitments they have given.
14:02
Kim Johnson Portrait Kim Johnson MP (Liverpool Riverside, Labour)
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Khmelnytskyi. I would like to thank my good friend the chair of the Justice Committee, the member for Hammersmith and Chiswick for his excellent speech. And for securing this debate today. I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in today's debate today. And I declare my interest as chair of the APPG for miscarriage of justice. I welcome the Estimate and the commitment from the spending review but I want to focus my remarks on an area of great concern.

The Ministry of Justice spending on criminal justice. More specifically to adequately prevent and correct miscarriages of justice. What is the value of justice if innocent people are still being convicted, imprisoned and left to rot in our Criminal Justice System? The sad truth is that for all the billions we are debating today, the ministry is failing in one of its most fundamental duties, to ensure innocent people are protected from wrongful conviction and supporting -- supported when the system fails them.

Miscarriages of justice are not theoretical, they are real. And ongoing. And they destroy lives. Andrew Malkinson wrongfully imprisoned for 17 years for a crime he did not commit. Exonerated last year but only after torturous journeys through a system that was more interested in detecting itself and in covering the truth. -- Uncovering the truth. Peter Swallow a wrongfully convicted of murder wrongfully spent 18 years in prison before being exonerated only last month. He is a victim of the longest miscarriage of justice involving a living prisoner in British legal history.

These cases expose deep systemic flaws and happened in plain sight. But across the country, we have individuals experiencing criminalisation and injustice without proper recourse. Their names are not always making the headlines but their stories are no less important. Miscarriages of justice are not rare in accident, they are now sadly and inevitable consequence of a failing system, stripped of its checks and balances. At the heart of that system is the criminal cases review commission. A body that was designed to be the safety net.

To identify where the system had gone wrong and to help innocent people wrong and to help innocent people find justice. Yet the sea like at the CCRC is in crisis. In May the Justice Select Committee published a damning indictment of the leadership and performance. It stated the CCRC had stated and I quote, every -- a remarkable inability to learn from its own mistakes. And it had deteriorated significantly in its ability to fulfil its vital function. The committee concluded Root and Branch Review is required and under the clearest possible terms it found it was untenable for the current Chief Executive Karen Kneller to remain in post.

This is not political rhetoric. This is a cross-party commitment of this House carrying out its scrutiny function and reaching deeply troubling conclusions. The CCRC failure to come at a terrible cost. Not to those wrongly convicted but also to public confidence in the rule of law. Every year it fails to identified miscarriages, innocent people remain behind bars for lives -- with their lives put on hold always permanently destroyed. But Madam Deputy Speaker, I also want to acknowledge a step in the right direction.

I welcome the appointment of Dame Vera Baird Casey as the interim chair of the CCRC. Dame Vera Baird is a long and respect record of championing justice and accountability. I hope her leadership marks a turning point and I look forward to seeing real progress made. Not just in leadership but in culture, performance and independence. For that to happen the government must make, must take responsibility series. Reform cannot come on the cheap. The CCRC must be properly resourced. And empowered to do the job it was created to do.

Because until we properly fund our safeguards, miscarriages of justice will continue. The human costs will remain unbearable and the financial cost will the unsustainable. I also quickly want to touch on two areas that are critical to justice. Legal aid and forensic sciences. Since 2010 funding has been slashed by hundreds of millions and access to justice and representation is now a postcode lottery. In the collapse of criminal defence provision across England and Wales we see this. There is no entire areas with no local legal aid solicitors.

This proportionately affecting those from marginalised groups, those most vulnerable to miscarriages of justice. Forensic science, once the gold standard has been fragmented and degraded. A three-year inquiry set up by the APPG on miscarriage of justice. Into forensics. This has recently concluded the sector is in a graveyard spiral. Leading to poorer police investigations, increasing unsolved crimes and more wrongful convictions. Evidence shows of the system is continuing to fail not only to ensure the prevention of miscarriage of justice but their speedy identification and resolution when they do occur.

We support calls for a full national order forensic provision to assess the urgent support needed to prevent further decline and to protect future investigations and trials from preventable failure. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like now to talk about prisons and the chronic underfunding that is failing both staff and those in custody. At the justice union's Parliamentary group yesterday I heard first-hand about the crisis in prison education. According to Ofsted 82% of prisons and young offender institutions are rated inadequate or require improvement for education skills and work provision.

Prison educators are paid less than their counterparts in the wider FE sector. The Education Select Committee warned in 2022 that poor pay, unsafe working environments and lack of respect have driven every -- have driven a roof like a recruitment and retention crisis. This is unacceptable. Education is one of the most powerful tools for rehabilitation. Yet we are underfunding and undervaluing the very people delivering it. The same is true of prison maintenance. Privatisation has been a costly failure. Basic repairs go unmet, squalor is widespread and maintenance backlog is now estimated at nearly £2 billion.

I support the POA is bringing back campaign for in sourcing Britain -- prison maintenance. The solving of this problem for generation must adhere. Crumbling prisons where contractor failed, left dangerous and decaying conditions for both staff and visitors, I also want to express my support to the POA's campaign on retirement age, asking officers to work until they are 68 is such a high stress, high-risk environment it is simply an -- unsustainable. 68 is simply too late. To conclude we are debating how to spend 18 billion in the Ministry of Justice.

But money alone is not the issue. It is about priority. If the very foundations of justice are crumbling then every other investment is undermined. The Criminal Justice System continues to fail innocent people. Chronic underfunding has rendered safeguards weak and ineffective. Leadership has been absent where it was most needed and time and again the system refused to admit where it gets things wrong. Miscarriages of justice are not tragic accidents, they are the inevitable consequence of a system that is under resourced, poorly led and structurally resistant to scrutiny.

Every wrongful conviction is not just a personal tragedy, it is a betrayal of our legal system. And the value it claims to uphold. Because justice denied to one is justice denied to all. Let us not, let us invest not just in building but in truth, not just in processes but in people. And above all let us put real justice, not convenience, not cost-cutting at the heart of everything the Ministry of Justice does. Thank you. does. Thank you.
14:12
Pam Cox Portrait Pam Cox MP (Colchester, Labour)
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Thank you. I rise today as the member of Parliament for Colchester, as a member of the Justice Select Committee and as the recently elected chair of the APPG were -- APPG of Affairs and I declare my interest in relation to that APPG. This for the Ministry of Justice proposes a 6.5 increase in day-to- day spending and a 20.8% increase in capital investment. It is a very welcome set of figures. Necessary of course because this government inherited a crisis from the last.

A crisis across the Criminal Justice System in our courts, in our prisons and in our probation services. Let us begin with the calls like the courts and as my honourable friend the justice of the Select Committee has outlined, the Court backlog stands at 74,000 cases. That is double the level in 2019. Victims are waiting years for justice. The increase in sitting days investments in digital infrastructure are unnecessary.. -- A necessary first step. I visited our courts were dedicated public servants were working very hard despite these challenges to deliver justice for victims.

We need bold reform. I welcome and look forward to the recommendations from the Brian Levinson's review. Which we hope will indeed be bold. The justice system often more than not seems to be stuck in a bygone age. Turning to around prisons we all see the failures of the last government laid bare. Failure to plan for the long- term in prison places, a failure to rehabilitate prisoners and failure to prevent reoffending. Prison population now exceeds 87th -- 87,000 people with projections suggested it could reach over 100,000 by 2028.

That means overcrowding is rife, 24% of prisoners are held in crowded conditions. The maintenance backlog is now ballooned to 1.8 billion. You cannot have effective rehabilitation in a prison system that is so overcrowded. Time and again we have heard from the Select Committee of pure contract and management and of failure around transparency and value for money. Across a whole range of contracts from education to maintenance, to drug and alcohol services. I hope the new Procurement Act will vitally tighten up those essential processes.

The bitumen tactics to be fit for purpose. If it is not then the prisons will not be fit for purpose. The government 10 year Prison Capacity Strategy promises 14,000 new places. That is compared to just 500 constructed under the last government over those 14 wasted years. We cannot build our way however out of this crisis alone. My honourable friend has said this. We also need a smarter approach to sentencing and rehabilitation so I welcome also then the justice Secretary commitment to the progression model and the expansion of community-based alternatives.

Progression must be matched with access to decent prison programs, health education and well-being and so on. So progression is indeed owned and helps offender sterility in their lives around. And thereby protects the public and victims from harm. Those reforms must be matched by investment in probation. Privation service is under severe strains as we have heard. Any local services and staff turnover is still too high. There is a £700 million fund for probation. That is a very good start.

We must make sure it delivers measurable improvement in those reoffending ways. I would like to see a brief legal aid. Expenditure on legal wages down but legal aid is down 31% in real terms since 2010 and that is hollowing out access to justice. Recent commitments on increasing funding for solicitors and youth Court work are welcome but I would echo comments made by the side of the House we need to go further on legal aid where possible. The justice system that only works for those who can afford it is no justice system at all.

To conclude, this estimate reflects a government that recognises the scale of the challenge. The Secretary of State and her ministerial team have worked extreme to deliver this increase in funding. The last government's control of the courts, the prisons and probation. These measures will go some way to putting that right so we can all once again have faith in we can all once again have faith in
14:17
Linsey Farnsworth Portrait Linsey Farnsworth MP (Amber Valley, Labour)
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I rise as a member of the Justice Select Committee and former prosecutor who worked within the Criminal Justice System. Today is an opportunity not only to examine Ministry of Justice's estimates for the coming year, but to assess whether our Criminal Justice System is being resourced to meet the scale of the challenges it faces and make our communities safer. I want to talk particularly about the sentencing review and the impact of that on resourcing, particularly for the Probation Service.

We know we inherited a system that was on the brink of collapse, the 2024 report on prison population growth revealed that England and had the highest per capita prison population in Western Europe. This was a crisis that our government had to respond to immediately upon entering office. The Justice Secretary's temporary early release scheme was difficult but necessary decision to protect the justice system from making all together and ensure dangerous offenders were not turned away at the door due to lack of space.



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She referred to the early release scheme is temporary. Issue 100 percent confident that it is temporary scheme and the government

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temporary scheme and the government will not be releasing more prisoners over the next four years? What I would say in that regard

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What I would say in that regard is we inherited a particularly drastic situation which is not going to be turned around overnight. We to be turned around overnight. We to be turned around overnight. We will take the important measures I am sure the Minister will speak on am sure the Minister will speak on behalf of the government, but I expect the government will take the difficult decisions on an ongoing basis until we are in a better basis until we are in a better position and that may have to be something that is reviewed in due course.

I do not speak for the government in that regard but I do government in that regard but I do trust them to make sure our members of the public are safe and there are places available by whatever means they need to make sure dangerous they need to make sure dangerous criminals can be put in jail. We criminals can be put in jail. We must now move beyond this crisis must now move beyond this crisis into crisis management. The mission driven Labour government is driven Labour government is investing to deliver 14,000 new prison places by 2031 and my honourable friend, the member for Colchester, was right in pointing out that that contrast quite starkly with the 500 prison places that were created across a 14 year period under the last government.

However it is clear that the solution to overcrowding cannot be simply to build more prisons, instead lies in the breaking of the cycle of

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reoffending. I know as members of the Select Committee you will want to be accurate in what you are saying.

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accurate in what you are saying. There is no 'you,' Unless you are talking to the chair.

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talking to the chair. Does she accept we added 13,000

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prison places during our time in office? I recognise prison places were

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I recognise prison places were created but we are talking in net terms. In terms there were 500 extra.

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extra. Certainly not happy with only 500 net over 14 years. That is why this net over 14 years. That is why this government is taking action to increase prison places in real increase prison places in real increase prison places in real terms. We need to sort out the cycle of reoffending which places a of reoffending which places a massive strain on the system. Almost 60 percent of those receiving a 60 percent of those receiving a prison sentence of 12 months or less reoffended within a year.

In these instances, focusing on what happens after a crime has been committed is after a crime has been committed is the best way to prevent future offending. We do not need a justice system that is bigger, but one that is fairer and more effective. Our ambition and reforms to make our streets safer cannot be met by enforcement alone. They must be backed by sustained funding, particularly to support the Probation Service which lies at the heart of a functioning and fair justice system.

This takes me back to a project I was involved in in the early 2000's, I was proud to be involved in that in Nottingham, the community Justice initiative under the last Labour government's respect agenda. I am that old to remember that.

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For the record, I did not comment on their lady because my age. Indeed. I am grateful you did

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Indeed. I am grateful you did not. I'm very conscious of my own not. I'm very conscious of my own self. The community Justice initiative brought the community into the justice process, into the justice process, facilitated Community Impact Statements for certain offences such as antisocial behaviour and took a holistic approach to sentencing holistic approach to sentencing which aims to tackle drivers of offending, including drug misuse, unemployment and poor education. unemployment and poor education. Despite the initiative working, it was unfortunately short lived because ultimately it lacked the because ultimately it lacked the resources and funding in the longer term for it to be sustainable.

Just like the community Justice initiative, the reforms that have set out in the first year of this set out in the first year of this government offers enormous promise. government offers enormous promise. I do not have a glass ball and I certainly do not claim to be able to see in the future but as we look ahead to the ministries prescribed ahead to the ministries prescribed spending for the following year, it seems there are two possible seems there are two possible scenarios before us, in the first we learn from the past, in the second, we repeat its mistakes.

I asked the Minister, if I can be clear today, we cannot allow history to repeat itself. This cannot happen. We must not allow ourselves to return to a crisis point because we are unable to resource the very initiatives which will help us reform the justice system. As a prosecutor I saw the same individuals pass through the courts again and again and how this cycle of reoffending devastated lives, clogged up the courts and cost the taxpayer millions. I therefore wholeheartedly welcome the shift from short prison sentences, proven to do little to reduce reoffending, towards community services which get to the root of reoffending behaviour.

I am pleased we have researched-based sentencing review which can work to reduce this problem and tackle crime at its cause. But it must be financed in a sustained and long- term manner if it is to succeed. The Probation Service stands at a crossroads and its future will be decided by the advocacy of resourcing, staffing and funding. The government promised it will receive an increase of up to £700 million per year to support the reform set out in the independent sentencing review by 2028/29.

The Minister for prisons, parole and probation set a target for 1,300 probation staff to be recruited in the next year. The Minister of Justice's budget for 2025/26 shows welcoming increases including nearly £800 million more in the day-to-day spending, 523 million of which The prison probation, and there is a 32 percent increase in capital expenditure. But the justice system has suffered from years of underfunding and under resourcing, which has resulted in overcrowding and overburdening. Justice reform is about protecting communities, supporting victims and giving offenders the opportunity to transform their lives and reintegrate into society.

If we are to avoid a return to the crisis we inherited, the Probation Service must receive the resources it desperately needs. Thank you. desperately needs. Thank you.
14:25
Tom Hayes Portrait Tom Hayes MP (Bournemouth East, Labour)
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Back Bench contribution. that has grown over recent years, every display of incompetence, every display of national decline and the Conservatives have hollowed out trust in our democracy to get things done. The public has had its fill, and no other areas have they seen such decline and injustice as with the Criminal Justice System and the Conservatives. The Conservatives melted our Criminal Justice System, lost control of security services, it is the Conservatives policies. In crashing the Criminal Justice System, the Conservatives did more harm to our country's faith in democracy and ability of the state to get things done than we can ever know or quantify.

I do not exaggerate that because when I knock on doors and people ring up numbers, they cannot get the police to attend. When they submit crime reports and do not hear back, when they feel there is an absence of policing on the streets, this is something -- and inheritance they have given the Labour government, there is a hopelessness in our politics. Courts are clogged, victims waiting years for justice, police officers stretched to the limits, legal aid hollowed out and communities feel unsafe and unheard.

Shoplifting, antisocial behaviour and the illegal use of e-scooters and e-bikes are examples of things our immunities raise as examples of local decline, to which the too few police to respond. Not just a matter of law and order, matter of fairness, decency and safety. -- Our communities. The Labour government has a challenge to put right the Criminal Justice System so fundamentally broken. I see the opposition laughing at what I'm saying is really disheartening. I would happily give way for you to apologise for the 14 years of chaos.



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You consider the ratio of Labour members to Conservative members and how many people are here today and how many people on that side we can how many people on that side we can be proud of our showing competitor that on your side.

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that on your side. That is so wide of the mark, it is so unsurprising the Conservatives is so unsurprising the Conservatives are floundering in polls and so unwelcome in our communities. We can and must regain public trust in our and must regain public trust in our Criminal Justice System. We must regain trust in our ability of our democracy to do things. We want to Criminal Justice System that works for everyone, that protects the public, respects victims, rehabilitates in a way that is possible and were not possible lock people up for the appropriate amount of time.

Protects the Probation Service and Val prison officers and Service and Val prison officers and make sure we can be a secure country again. I'll welcome the announcement again. I'll welcome the announcement of 13,000 more police officers, 40 going into my local area, we are creating court backlogs with more creating court backlogs with more sitting days, something welcomed. To sitting days, something welcomed. To champion rights, someone who ran a champion rights, someone who ran a domestic abuse service for 14 years before my election, that is something that is important to me.

I know many colleagues care passionately about tackling domestic violence. And also rebuilding youth services. I know the importance of the third sector. I will make a plea to the Minister that in thinking through how we can rehabilitate those who can be rehabilitated, the

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third sector has a role to play. With caseworkers... I thank him for giving way and

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I thank him for giving way and that very important point. Would he join me in a knowledge in the excellent work of organisations such excellent work of organisations such as futures unlocked in rugby, who I as futures unlocked in rugby, who I met recently. I met the trustees and volunteers, these small charities do volunteers, these small charities do so much work to help ex-prisoners as they transition towards life outside they transition towards life outside they transition towards life outside of prison.

I was hugely impressed and they are often doing work that the Probation Service cannot do,

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despite its best efforts after the 14 years of underfunding under the last government. I thank you for that important

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I thank you for that important point and welcome the work of the charity and charities in his area, as I welcome the work of charities as I welcome the work of charities in all of our areas. He puts his finger on our issue. Charities can do things that the probation service do things that the probation service cannot, they create trust in people, further trust to statutory services, further trust to statutory services, provide bespoke support that trees individuals as human beings who are individuals as human beings who are seeking education, employment support, mental health and addiction support, housing assistance, some cases the most powerful support, peer support.

Charities providing the bespoke support cannot just help reduce reoffending rates, help rehabilitate, help people get into work, but can bring down crime rates and the cost to the public purse of the Criminal Justice System. We need to recognise the link between poverty and exclusion and offending rates. Not to say people who grew up in disadvantaged commit crime, but we need to recognise the evidence, which is there is correlation and causation and we need to be tackling the root causes of poverty and exclusion and in so tackle the exclusion and in so tackle the Enclosing I want to thank the minute of what he is about to say which I'm sure will be excellent and I want to thank honourable members for their contributions.

If our democracy feels fragile it is because of the record of the last government in this area. That democracy is to recover it will be because of the prompt and proportionate action I believe this government will take. And the action it has taken to truly address the challenges we face. The British people know what they want. The Telus often enough. It is our job to listen. It is our job to come to terms and find progress and the

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outcomes they are crying out for. I now come to the Front Benchers. Thank you. I thank the chair of

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Thank you. I thank the chair of the Justice Select Committee working with my honourable friend, the member for Amber Valley for making
14:32
Josh Babarinde Portrait Josh Babarinde MP (Eastbourne, Liberal Democrat)
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member for Amber Valley for making the pitch. As the Backbench Business Committee to secure this debate. I also join the Select Committee chair in thanking the incredible staff who work across our Criminal Justice System. If I may add as well, charities like the incredible band of brothers in Eastbourne who work with young ex-offenders across my hometown to tackle crime. The last government as has been documented in this chamber today, left our Criminal Justice System in a state.

Our prisons were left in crisis, overcrowded with increases in violence and self-harm incidents at their highest levels since records began. Our probation services were left high and dry with an electronic tagging contract left offenders with violent convictions unmonitored for far too long. Our courts were left dealing with staggeringly high backlogs with tens of thousands of open cases and victims waiting months, even years for justice. And of course as has been mentioned by honourable members, reoffending is through the roof with 80% of people in our prisons being reoffenders.

That is a symbol of more crime, of more victims and of more misery and harm. This of course carries an enormous pricetag to with reoffending costing society more than £18 billion per year. The consequences of this dire set of circumstances have been playing for us all to see but I saw it myself when working in this space before being elected to this House. I spent my career supporting X offenders, young ex-offenders out of crimes and out of gangs in Eastbourne in very different ways.

I remember working with the particular young person and I said to him on his first day off work with us to come and where some smart trousers. He did not know what I meant. And he said Josh due in Court rises? -- Do you mean Court trousers? What a sad state of affairs that a person in our country has grown up being more accustomed to the Criminal Justice System than he is our education system. That is the legacy I am afraid of the last government.

Another young person I remember working with and into a young offenders institution that was notorious for its issues with violence. He was working with us as a phone repair technician before he went in and became -- and came back when he came out except he came out missing a finger as a result of some of the things that were going on in that place. And again some of our institutions are out of control. As a victim myself who has been through the Criminal Justice System I have experienced what it is like to wait years to have my case heard.

Through an adversarial system that seeks to be down victims as opposed to support them to rise up. This needs to change. And so I welcome giving credit where it is due to the investment this government is making our Criminal Justice System. Through the spending review. This investment itself is not the silver bullet and it might not go far enough to right the wrongs of the past. It must be accompanied by reform. And so on courts, there is no mention in the spending review specifically of investing in our crumbling courts that cause so much inefficiency and cost of a system, cost victims and cost justice.

As my honourable friend from Solihull Leader of the Opposition, Solihull West and Shirley mentioned earlier in the debate, the magistrates Association has been particularly concerned about the lack of mention of legal advisers and funding for them in magistrates courts which is rolled deaf which is resulting in one intensity was being cancelled. And on prisons while investment has been announcing creating new prison places no reference to extra funding for women's centres or to custody as featured in the spending review.

Despite this being something that David Gauke recommended in his Independent Review. And despite charities like working chance telling us that women's centres are often at least 10 times more effective at reducing reoffending and cost-effective than the prison system. On probation while we welcome the £700 million that has been committed to that service it is critical as per the demands of Women's Aid, that some of that cash goes towards mandatory training for probation officers as far as domestic abuse and recognising domestic abuse and protecting survivors of domestic abuse is

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concerned. I will give way. I thank my honourable friend for

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I thank my honourable friend for giving way. I just wanted on that particular point to say, the money that goes into the probation system it is clear it may not be enough to deal with the scale of the added pressures there are going to be on pressures there are going to be on the provision system. The chair has a ready managed, has a ready talked a ready managed, has a ready talked about -- already talked about contract management. And the example of circa was a really good one.

Where there is going to be so much more reliance on electronic tagging. And whether that will now happen.

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And whether that will now happen. I agree with the point my honourable friend from Wales is making. This is about much more than just spend. This is about the efficiency of the spend. Taxpayers deserve far better than what they deserve far better than what they are getting at the moment from this Serco contract. Where as I said Serco contract. Where as I said earlier many offenders are being left without the proper robust monitoring victims and survivors and our communities need and deserve.

If I come to reoffending, the David Gauke review offered many recommendations to unlock supply in our prisons was fairly light on what can be done to stem the demand going into our prisons. And preventing crime and reoffending was the Cinderella of this review. And may be out of scope in some respects. It is critical our Criminal Justice System is reformed in a holistic way. That is the true means of being able to make our Criminal Justice System more efficient.

When it comes to victims and survivors, something that was missing from the spending review work commitments around reversing the damage of the impact of the national insurance increases for employers. Victims charities have written to me saying the increase in those taxes as well as cuts to Police and Crime Commissioner core budgets is tantamount to a seven% real terms cut. In their budget. That means victim services are going to be compromised, victim services not are similar to the services I want to -- I once accessed at SurvivorsUK.

I would urge the government to look again at that. The status quo of more reoffending and exponentially high cost to the taxpayer is both immoral and unsustainable. And while these funds, this investment will go some way in reducing the backlog is increasing prison and improving our increasing prison and improving our probation services there are still vital challenges left and met. As I have expressed, just this week in fact, yesterday it may have been, directly to the Minister, the Liberal Democrats stand ready to work constructively with the government to scrutinise the measures and to give credit where it is due to help achieve more justice for victims, survivors and other

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communities. Shadow Minister.
14:41
Kieran Mullan Portrait Dr Kieran Mullan MP (Bexhill and Battle, Conservative)
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Shadow Minister. Thank you. It is a pleasure to respond on behalf of His Majesty opposition. The Ministry of Justice expenditure as it relates to criminal justice for stock and I think the Select Committee chair for securing and opening the debate. I just wanted to say briefly in Armed Forces week as we are, those of us who have been involved in the Criminal Justice System in various guises over the years will do particularly now in our Prison Service and one quarter of prison officers will have an Armed Forces background and we see in the sector alone, the ongoing contrition people from the Armed Forces committee make to our public services in different ways and it is a pleasure to be able to pay tribute to that on the record today during the Armed Forces week.

Moving on this is a very important topic for discussion under our courts, prisons and provision services are the very bedrock of our Granada system. This government has been in charge of key areas of key expenditure in activity for most in a year now. We are the challenges being faced by those in contact with the Criminal Justice System that remain. We almost -- we know from day one this covenant has lurched from crisis to crisis and sadly the Ministry of Justice has not been spared.

As we sped deaf to consider the estimates and the link plans to overcome challenges Lord Astor system it is of course true to say they can only have a meaningful debate if we consider the journey we have been on to respond. I want to focus on the inheritance this government have had. This inheritance can only be fairly considered when we know what we inherited. What we inherited and then despite the challenges, what we delivered and challenges that remain full Labour talk about challenging women heritages in the current system but what did we face arriving in office? We have heard a lot in recent months about Labour being.

Only release schemes for prisoners as a sign of pressures on the system. What exactly was happening with early release at the end of their time of government? Under the last Labour government an astonishing 80,000 prisoners were released early. A huge number stopped just before the election for purely political reasons, leaving us to pick up the pieces in our prison estate we inherited. During our 14 years in office were released just six% of that figure. The numbers they say they have been forced to release since they came into office are a barometer of failure what exactly do members opposite make of the scale of releasing 80,000 prisoners after more than a decade in charge? Perhaps a good excuse for releasing that many prisoners early, perhaps this happened because they have been spending time rightly toughening up sentencing for the worst offenders during their time in office? I am afraid not.

In fact what I consider to be an enormous historical mistake, the consequences of which we are still battling today in terms of the justice system delivering proper punishment, Labour introduced automatic half day released for -- halfway released for essentially all offenders when they were last in. That included 80,000 released early as an emergency scheme that I been talking about earlier, this is just essentially everyone, all offenders being released early. Yet they still manage to have a sustained crisis in prison capacity.

I do not take any lectures opposite from members of the Criminal Justice Act. Under the previous Conservative government were restored public confidence and work to restore public confidence prisoners facing punishment for the crimes and worked hard to ensure unlike Labour, we would not have to release 80,000 prisoners early on emergency release schemes. We brought in serious reforms and were reduced automatic release from halfway to two thirds of a sentence the most serious offenders and a huge step forward for introducing greater degree of proper punishment to the criminal justice system.

Building on that we introduced whole life tariffs for the premeditated murder of children and increased maximum sentences for the worse child abusers through Tony's law. And the maximum sentences for Elizabeth emergency services to Harper's law and those who killed through driving and memories of victims and others. I'm proud of these reforms I make no apologies for them. They do make differences to present going to discuss the changes that are necessary and it is covert more than any other factor that created the challenges we see now.

We did have to tackle the enormous challenges presented by COVID which have left long legacy in criminal justice system. We prioritise the right to jury trials in the way the rest of the world struggle to. We had one of the shorter suspensions of setting the trials and we do what we could to keep trials continuing. We increase today's along the course to set a maximum capacity the three years -- the three days investing 220 million on modernisation with records up to 2025 and extending the use of 2090 courted -- 20 Court rooms.

Despite what Labour now claim Academy justice system moving. We undoubtedly do still face challenges around the backlog. Again I am happy to compare records. Labour MPs are now deeply concerned with backlog. How concerned about Crown Court backlogs were Labour MPs when they were last in government? I can tell members pre-pandemic backlogs in the Crown Court actually reached higher levels during their time in office than it did under us. The increase in the remand population of approximate lie 7,000 above the historical average is a major factor in the challenges we are facing the What What has What has laboured What has laboured in What has laboured in to What has laboured in to make What has laboured in to make a difference since coming into office? Do they wish to maximise sitting days to get the backlog down? They did not.

They repeatedly dragged their feet for almost 6 months, did not take up the Labour Chief Justice on her offer of further sitting days. With each month passed, more loss court days, more people waiting, more pressure on the system then increases sitting days from the outset. What has been their biggest celebration in terms of prison building? It is a celebration of the opening of a new prison, planned, paid for and largely built under the previous Conservative government. Despite what they say, we created 13,000 prison places in office, including two new prisons.

I'm not aware that any of Labour's projected aware that any of Labour's projected Figures. Which they want to use when looking at our record. The announced plans of 14,000 prison places by 2021, but 6,000 of those -- 6,500 of the places were already in the pipeline. Four of the new prisons were planned or under construction, were planned or under construction, Even more concerning is the funding gap, the government allocated 7 billion, but the Minister of Justice and HMPPS expect the expansion cost to be closer to 10 billion, £3 billion shortfall and serious question over how the promised places would be delivered.

How are they building on the legacy of releasing 16,000 prisoners early in their first six months? In the name of sustainability, they are embedding further levels of early release onto the system and unpicking the positive steps we made in government to turn around their legacy of which of -- weaker punishment. They are doing this on the back of a sentencing review by David Gauke on the premise that increasing prison populations were unsustainable. That review was an insult to the views of families and their victims and many -- and the victims and many have told me so.

Imagine launching what you describe as a landmark review of sentencing and giving almost no consideration whatsoever within page after page of a report to what victims and their families actually want to see from sentencing. Instead of a serious attempt to engage with what victims and their families may want, Mr Gauke deploys the patronising talking points that victims and families do not understand sentencing and if they did they would feel much better about it all. This might be of interest to the chair of the current Select Committee because Mr Gauke cherry picked quotes from our excellent report from previous session on public understanding and expectations of sentencing.

That report engaged with what the public would want and raised to determine that more effectively. It takes a type of intellectual approach to go through a report full of rich detail What suits you and hoping no one would notice. I did notice and representatives of victims and their families like justice for victims noticed as well. This half baked exercise in sentencing has served as a launch point for the sentencing policy. If halfway release was not an appalling enough legacy from the last time, they are reducing to one third of a sentence for most offenders and turning our two thirds release for offenders back to halfway release.

Prisons will now be rewarded for doing what is expected of them, obeying prison rules, engaging in education and working, they are basic behaviours of any law-abiding citizen, should not qualify them for early release and definitely not one third of the sentence. That is not justice. It is little to protect the public and is a dereliction of duty. Our Crown Court backlogs have increased by more than 10 percent, standing in excess of 70,000 cases and the remand population sits at 70,000 people.

Problems Labour promised to fix in opposition are getting worse. How does the Lord Chancellor now plan to tackle this challenge? The £450 million committed to the cause in the spending review is perhaps a useful, if not fully adequate, indication. How will the money be spent? The government have no substantial ideas of their own. 14 years apparently was not long enough for them to think of their own innovations. While we await the findings of another independent review, Labour announced custodial sentences over 12 months will vanish, replaced by community sentences.

The consequences are Jail altogether. I have met with local businesses at their wits end. They tell me about rising shoplifting, staff who are afraid and customers who do not feel safe. Removing custodial sentences sends a message of impunity. Labour chose the easy way out. Tackling a prison population not with long-term reform or capacity investment, but by reducing sentences and downplaying criminal behaviour. It puts the public at risk. It was last week reported that they declined to move forward with building any prison block.

They say they are doing everything possible to avoid releasing any, how does that square with that decision? You might think they would grab opportunities but we haven't seen them stand in the way haven't seen them stand in the way of reforms. Making sure victims are awarded losses, they would not support it. Increasing court fines, Labour did not support it. More time to appeal sentences, Labour did not support it. The mismanagement of the economy leaves us with less money to spend on the Ministry of Justice.

Labour have made things worse over any economic metric, unemployment up, downgraded, is there any wonder why? The OBR are concerned about the damaging effects of the taxes. The MoJ's expenditure pails in comparison to what we will be paying in debt over the course of the Parliament. Given the funding allocated to probation and the increasing reliance on it, given the member from the Select Committee highlighted the number of probation officers have gone down they came into power, how do they plan to ensure the money is delivering effective services? How do they plan to close the £3 billion gap in the prisons budget? Given their own thinking is relying on it, when will the Leadsom Report be published? The British people deserve justice system they can trust, that protects victims, punishes offenders and keeps victims say.

This government's approach fails on every single

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count. Can I start by thanking my honourable friends, the chair of the Select Committee, bought his opening Select Committee, bought his opening remarks in securing this important debate, along with everyone else who has commuted so thoughtfully? And has commuted so thoughtfully? And echo his words in paying tribute to echo his words in paying tribute to everyone who works in the criminal everyone who works in the criminal justice system, they do an amazing
14:54
Nicholas Dakin Portrait Sir Nicholas Dakin MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Scunthorpe, Labour)
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justice system, they do an amazing job in protection. And I highlight that work people who have previously been in the Armed Forces play in our criminal justice system. One of the things we know is that Labour has always been tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime. I give three facts to evidence that. 14 years of Labour government we have 27,830 prison places, in 14 years of Conservative government they added 500 net prison places. So far already under this government we added around 2,500 prison places.

The figures speak for themselves. We want a criminal justice system that works for everyone. That is what the honourable member for Bournemouth East said. I think everyone would agree with that. Last summer our prisons were operating at over 99 percent capacity, just days after taking office. We have no choice but to take emergency measures to avoid running out of space. Had we not acted, the result would have been catastrophic, courts grant to a vault, police halting arrest. We would have faced a total breakdown of law and order.

We were left in this position because the previous government, despite their promises and finalist, delivered only those 500 additional prison places in 14 years. Whilst at the same time sentence length rose exponentially. As a result, the prison population is rising by 3,000 each year. This government takes its duty to protect the public very seriously and that is why we are taking the robust, bold action needed to ring an end to the cycle of crisis. Ensuring the British public are never again put at risk by their failure to have enough prison places.

We are committed to bearing down on the outstanding caseload in the courts that a number of members alluded to and delivering swifter justice for victims. But we acknowledge that the challenge facing the Crown Court is significant. As part of the spending review settlement we agreed with the Treasury we will fund record investment for the court system by 2028/29, keeping sitting days at record highs over this period. 110,000 sitting days in the Crown Court just this year. We recognise that this is not enough given the scale of the challenge we inherited.

Even with the record levels of Crown Court funding and our plans for record numbers of future sitting days, without substantial reform of criminal courts, the backlog will continue to grow. That is why the Lord Chancellor commissioned an independent review of the criminal independent review of the criminal courts led by Ryan Levinson, one of the most distinguished judges, to consider the options for longer term reform, as well as reviewing the efficiency and timeliness of court processes through charge to case completion. I would hope that report would report shortly.

We will fund capacity to speed up the processing of asylum appeals, supporting the government's priority to reduce illegal and irregular migration. Legal aid is a vital part of the justice system, as we heard from colleagues across the House, it underpins our plans to build a justice system that works fairly for all parties. In December we announced that criminal legal aid solicitors will receive up to £92 million more a year to address the ongoing challenges in the criminal justice system and get justice for victims.

Following that, in January, we began consulting over £20 million uplift to civil legal aid fees for lawyers working in immigration, asylum and housing and debt sectors. I pay tribute to the Member for Liverpool Riverside who spoke about the importance of forensics in addressing miscarriages of justice as well as issues around prism maintenance in our prisons. We are failing victims if courts cannot deliver swift justice. Prisons run out of places entirely and crime goes without punishment.

The Member for Colchester spoke about this in her contribution. This will have damaging consequences for the criminal justice system if this happens. That is why we are taking steps to rebuild justice system that works and victims have confidence in. We are looking at imposing tougher exclusion zones that limit movement of offenders instead of limiting the movement of victims and continue the provision of free sentencing remarks to victims of rape and serious sexual offences. The reforms will continue dash may include continuing to expand application of electronic monitoring to perpetrators of violence against women and girls and the use of specialist domestic abuse courts with trained staff to support victims and more coordinated management of perpetrators.

We will continue to fund services supporting victims and witnesses. The Liberal Democrat spokesperson made some elegant contributions which I heard clearly. We are creating a new Domestic Abuse Act, so that domestic abuse are known and their victims better protected. We have opened 2,400 prison places. Between 2025 and 2030, the government is providing £7 billion more to build more prison places by 2031, the largest expansion since the

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Victorian era. I give way. I did ask in my contribution whether the Minister could outline whether the Minister could outline how much of the extra money his department has been allocated will department has been allocated will go to wage rises, national insurance

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go to wage rises, national insurance and...? The figures I have given here are the figures we are going to deliver. You can be confident about that. While the investment is necessary, it is not sufficient. To address the challenges and ensure prisons create challenges and ensure prisons create better citizens, not better criminals, the Lord Chancellor commissioned the independent commissioned the independent sentencing review shared by David Gauke. As the Lord Chancellor announced in May, following the announced in May, following the findings, we will be introducing an earned progression model based on a three-part sentence.

Under this model, offenders are released points will be determined by their behaviour. If they follow rules, behaviour. If they follow rules, they have earlier release, if they do not, they will be locked up for longer. This will not be true for all offenders. Those currently serving extended determinate sentences with automatic release point of 67 percent, the earliest release they can. Different for people who have early releases. We This will see more offenders taxed and under close supervision from privation.

This will tailored according to each offenders risk and crime type and bolstered beyond the current system with a set of new restrictive measures. And a major ramp up in tagging and probation investment. In the third part offenders will be monitored in the community by the probation and returned to prison if they breach their conditions. Alongside the progression model we are also taking forward the recommendations to introduce a presumption of suspenseful sentences. We will be investing in this model and intensive supervision to significantly increasing our patient funding through the spending review settlement and I welcome the comments from the member for Amber Valley and also the highlighting of third sector organisations that contribute in this space from the members for Bournemouth East and Ralon Bay.

Our additional investment Ralon Bay. Our additional investment will increase by £700 million by £700,000,000.20 28 allowing us to substantially increase the number of offenders on tax and ensure investment in services that address the drivers of offending.

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May I ask the Minister when there are these reports will they be capacity for more funding from

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recommendations? We await the lover's report and when the liver's report comes obviously the Lord Chancellor will come to the House to update the come to the House to update the House on those issues. Those sorts of things will be rightly dealt with then. On efficiencies the spending then. On efficiencies the spending review has given a settlement to the department which the Department will department which the Department will By applying all the appropriate measures to that.

Rest assured Madam Deputy Speaker, this government inherited a system creaking under pressure having suffered chronic underfunding for 14 years, the underfunding for 14 years, the Justice Committee is right to point out by 2016/17 the day-to-day budget of the Department had fallen by one third in real terms. That is why we third in real terms. That is why we are delivering an ambitious once in a generation reform of the justice

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a generation reform of the justice system but this country needs -- that this country needs with public safety at its core. With the leave of the House I

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With the leave of the House I call Andy Slaughter to wind up briefly. Thank you very much. I do not need to add any matters to my speech. Because the inevitable gaps in that were filled eloquently by the speakers. Can I just take two minutes to thank those who contributed to this debate. The member for Bridgwater, Colchester, Amber Valley, Roseman Hills, soluble -- Solihull and Eastbourne were his hat is, and all members of the Justice Committee and I thank them all for being here.

Indeed can I thank all members of the Justice Committee with exception for the member for Wells and the member who resumed distinguished Parliamentary career after a short gap. They are all new members. They all give a lot of time to this in addition to all of that which new members have to do full stock I thank all the members who have spoken for their forensic detection of the previous government in their failings in this area and particularly my friend who covered ground I did not have time in terms of the CCRC and I would like to thank her for what she does in chairing that a PG.

I also thank my honourable friend for Derby North for the access to Justice and other APPGs in the field. Can I even conclusion thank the Front Benchers for their contributions. My honourable friend for Eastbourne as a was very critical and constructive in what he says. Perhaps the honourable member would like to take that approach. No I did not think so. I enjoyed very much our time together on the shadow Justice Committee. I also enjoyed and enjoy in these debates taking every bad point but I think he should be kinder to the former Lord Chancellor David Gauke I think did a very good report.

I say to the Minister he was a very good friend of mine, thank you for this contribution, we know what a difficult job he has. That will not stop us being on his back all of the time to make sure the many problems that have been you.
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15:07
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Portrait Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown MP (North Cotswolds, Conservative)
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Many -- Madam Deputy Speaker may I thank you, and all of those who have been involved in selecting this debate today. Particularly appropriate in Armed Forces week. I appropriate in Armed Forces week. I would also like to pay tribute to the Minister and my honourable friend on the Frontbench for being here today to listen to the speech and hopefully the Minister for answering a few questions. I would like to pay tribute to the honourable member of Slough who is chairman of the defence Select Committee and would have actually joined me as a joint application in this debate but his committee have been away from Parliament.

On a visit. So, the defence budget is one of the most important estimates the House can debate and scrutinise. With war raging in Ukraine, the ongoing Israeli Gaza conflict and now what is happening in Iran, our world feels increasingly unstable. The Prime Minister has recently returned from the G7 and is now the NATO summit ensuring our interests align with our European AND American allies. Which is critical. As general Walker, chief of the general staff said last July, we must be ready for war within three years.

The rest of my speech I think is probably devoted to that theme. So first I would like to discuss the figures of the defence budget. I think most people in this House are pleased to see defence spending is now considered a priority. The Strategic Defence Review announced earlier in June was welcomed and confirmed defence spending will be going up from two% of GDP to 2.5% by April 27. An extra .1% going towards intelligence and security services country regions. There was a further commitment to increase defence spending to seven% of GDP in the next Parliament but it is noted no date has been set for this.

The new announcement by the Prime Minister at the NATO summit suggests the covenant will expect to spend five% of GDP on national security and defence by the end of the next Parliament or by 2035. Which includes three% core defence spending and 1.5% on resilience and security spending. I would like to ask members to bear with me while I just go through this somewhat complete catered figures and what they will involve. Malcolm placated figures and what they will involve.

One% of GDP is around 28 billion according to the House of Commons Library but hopefully our GDP will increase as the years go by. College should note critically -- colleagues should note critically a percentage increase in the budget is not the same as an increasing percentage of GDP. Hence the much higher figures I am about to go into. The current ministry of defence budget according to the Treasury Redbook 25/2662.2 billion. That is around 2.2% of GDP. The government to reach the needed 2.5% of GDP to do this by 2027 and set aside the fact the MOD budget does not quite align with the NATO compliant spending, the defence budget must increase to around 70 billion in 27/28.

With the extra 1.1% I mentioned earlier -- extra .1% I mentioned earlier that is an extra... An extra nine to £11 million needs to be found in the next two years. Moving further into the next Parliament, if we are to reach the three% of GDP figure in the next Parliament, the defence budget will need to equate to around 84 billion in current prices today. After the announcement today of 3.5% equating figures is 98 billion and core defence resilience is 42 billion.

Therefore the total spending by 2035 will need to be 140 billion. These calculations are also dependent on the GDP staying the same and not increasing. In which case the budget will of course increase as well. I simply would like to ask the Minister today, where is all of this money coming from? Because it is a huge amount of money. With the failure to produce the Defence Investment Plan along with the Strategic Defence Review, the SDR is merely a list of ambitions and aspirations with few receipts and invoices attached.

In the Ministerial Statement, I did ask the Secretary of State if he could confirm when we would be able to scrutinise the figures. But I understand the Defence Investment Plan is still an unfinished piece of work and not due to be published until the autumn. That is a long way off. As Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission, the committee are always looking at how effectively money is spent and whether it could be spent more effectively given the taxpayer best value for money and whether indeed it is feasible.

However the committee has not been able to fulfil that statutory role of scrutinising the defence spending for at least 12 months. The last Defence Equipment Plan was published in November 2022. They sent out a 10 year spending plan for equipment procurement. Which was about 300.5 .5 billion. -- 305.5 billion and there was a shortfall of money then available. Can I just finish this available. Can I just finish this sentence? Then of course I will give way.

I am pleased the Permanent Secretary did accept our invitation to come to the committee in April to discuss the appointment plan. -- Equipment plan. He did not come with any proposals as to how and when we might be able to scrutinise the defence expenditure. To see whether these huge aspirations were affordable on this budget or the next budget of three% or the following one of 3.5%. I think it is really important Parliament does actually have a timetable of when it will be able to do that scrutiny.

Happily.

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I am grateful to my honourable friend. He mentions the equipment plan. Does he share the defence plan. Does he share the defence select committee's frustrations that I think we mentioned last time in 2022 and is he aware when Lord 2022 and is he aware when Lord Robertson came to the defence committee to discuss the Strategic Defence Review last week he was surprised the Defence Committee was surprised the Defence Committee was being denied access to the equipment program is indeed the Public program is indeed the Public Accounts Committee is.

So government simply cannot help to be accountable

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they are spending their money on? My honourable friend has made the case very eloquently. I have also case very eloquently. I have also made it. Embers will have heard it and hopefully the Minister will have something positive to say about this in his summing up. Of course.

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in his summing up. Of course. Thank you. To what extent does he believe that the situation is even believe that the situation is even worse than he has outlined? Because we know that inflationary pressures on defence bear far more heavily than on practically with the than on practically with the possible exception of healthcare. Any other part of public spending Any other part of public spending and yet I see no evidence in the defence review or anywhere else over the past 12 months of that being properly accounted for by Ministers

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or those who are advising him? My honourable friend must have

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My honourable friend must have read my mind because when I command of submarines I will mention this very factor of inflation in defence costs. The MOD has been reorganised costs. The MOD has been reorganised into four sections. There will be a Permanent Secretary in charge of the Permanent Secretary in charge of the department. The Chief of the Defence Staff will be in charge of all personnel matters. A new national personnel matters. A new national are Director will be in charge like are Director will be in charge like national armament Director will be in charge of everything digital and in charge of everything digital and research related and all matters to deal with what is now in the defence infrastructure Organisation.

And of course finally the defence nuclear course finally the defence nuclear organisation. Those are the four part. This particular debate focuses part. This particular debate focuses on the National Armaments Director and his appointment has been ongoing since it was announced on 17 December 24 last year and I am hopeful the Department might soon be hopeful the Department might soon be in a position to announce who they have selected to do the job. I have to say the job is very prestigious to say the job is very prestigious and very large one and it has a very large salary attached to it of £400,000.

So the National Armaments £400,000. So the National Armaments Director will be responsible as I said for defence procurement, all defence infrastructure Organisation including defence housing, digital and research. And it represents a huge part of the defence budget. He will have significantly more control over the acquisition process then his other two and I hope some of the announcements made will come to fruition including being able to go from a water contract and to your maximum. The department is hoping to do that by involving industry at a much earlier stage of the process.

So to help solve problems and rather than over specifying requirements this will actually streamline it and supervise the contract. This should also allow defence secretaries to export more equipment to international market which will in In In additional In additional to In additional to dynamics In additional to dynamics being awarded the contract they were also awarded the infamous battlefield awarded the infamous battlefield This has cost so far 820 This has cost so far 820 extended with modification and possibly 2035.

I think this may need a credible to get. In our defence system. I think the whole house will appreciate an update on where we are with our tri-service battlefield communication system and how they could be accelerated. Another contract the proceeds all scrutiny is the early-morning control aircraft. -- Early war control aircraft. As we share costs with our NATO allies, the Pentagon has labelled the East 17 expensive old plated and not survivable in armament battlefield. Again we would be great will to the Minister for As I said in answer to my statement today, the government committed to buying more F-35 aircraft, 12 F-35 A and 15 F 30 5Bs.

This will be an alternative to the Seabourn nuclear capability. Another huge commitment as part of the SDR is commitment to as part of the SDR is commitment to invest in up to 12 new AUKUS submarines. They are due to be in operation of the 2030s and 2040s with a submarine being built every 18 months but there are huge challenges ahead due to it being a new class of submarines and lack of capacity at Barrow-in-Furness. No cost for a submarine has ever been disclosed and this program is likely to take more than 10 years.

We really need to see some of the detail. It's the deal underpinned by the government's eventual commitment to increase expenditure to three percent in the next Parliament? So we can see whether it is feasible and we can see whether, I would be grateful if the Minister can confirm this, talking about long in service dates as I was with the F-35's earlier on, the Minister agreed with this, we need to see the earlier work in feasibility, contracts, beginning as soon as possible to meet this long tail into buying and building and commissioning the submarines.

This strategically important contract, when costs are announced, will need leadership from the National armaments director to ensure it remains on track and on budget. The Public Accounts Committee asked for an update by the end of 2026 which will demonstrate how well public procurement has improved under the first year of the National armaments group. Nuclear is important when looking at the nuclear enterprise budget, in 2024 the budget was 10.9 billion, around 18 percent of the whole budget. The 10 year costs have increased by 10 billion from 117.8 billion to 128 billion.

It is not clear whether the additional 15 billion announced in the SDR committed to the warhead is included in the figure. The budget is rising due to various factors, technical factors, but inflation and the speed of manufacturing, which we now need to build these submarines now need to build these submarines act to meet the timetable that is absolutely necessary for our defence. The budget is one of the few that is left and scrutinised due to the sensitive nature of these contracts.

But as chairman of the PAC I am constitutionally obliged to see the detail. Ongoing, this needs to be resolved and I'm grateful to the commitment of the Secretary of State working towards a solution. Sensitive scrutiny has never been more important due to the context of these figures I announced earlier. Defence personnel is another important part of the budget. The budget has had to increase by 14.3 billion to pay for the treasuries national insurance employer tax rise.

The number of people leaving the Armed Forces is far to high. Last year for every 100 personnel we were recruiting... This is unsustainable. The SDR commits to increasing Armed Forces to 76,000. The PAC recently held a session on reserve forces which the SDR clarifies the government wants to increase the number of cadets by 30 percent and critical service by 20 percent. I would be grateful if the government could confirm how much this would cost. We do need to make joining the Armed Forces are much more attractive option than it currently is.

Some of the defence housing I have seen frankly a prisoner would get better and safer conditions. Much of it has mould, rust, leaks. This must change if we want to improve the retention and recruitment of our Armed Forces in giving them a better package of remuneration and conditions of service. I welcome the 1 1/2 billion to improve defence housing as part of the SDR and 6.1 billion that has been spent on repurchase 35,000 homes following the landmark deal. This will allow the MoD to undertake major improvement schemes.

Another issue with recruitment is the length of time it takes to roll service personnel into training. We used to have an Armed Forces recruitment centre in every High Street of the country, people could walk in off the streets, sign up, wear uniform in two weeks. There are now stories of recruitment taking over six months, which is not good enough. We need to look further afield to ensure the military has the right skills for the future. Cyber warfare is becoming an increasing and real threat.

I believe the MoD could do more to recruit with eye and digital skills that would not necessarily meet the medical and fitness requirements needed for entry for normal military personnel. In conclusion... Yes, very briefly.

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Would he comment on the government's enthusiasm or otherwise for the review of careers in the for the review of careers in the Armed Forces? Which was carried out under the last government and was put in train by the last government put in train by the last government but we hear there has perhaps been backsliding since. Which is a pity, since the review was magisterial and since the review was magisterial and had already shown signs through zigzag careers spectrum of service zigzag careers spectrum of service of being appealing to servicemen and servicewomen and holding them in, servicewomen and holding them in, both the regulars and reserves.

It's

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both the regulars and reserves. It's a pity we did not have the process to continue. I cannot tell what is on the

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I cannot tell what is on the government's mind. Maybe the Minister will be able to tell us this afternoon. Given the SDR makes it clear they want to increase the numbers of our Armed Forces considerably, we have to consider every aspect of recruiting and retaining more of those. retaining more of those. Particularly when they have skills, making sure they do not just leave the army or Armed Forces as soon as the army or Armed Forces as soon as they have got those skills.

I think this is a really important issue my honourable friend is raised. There is no greater duty upon the government than defending the nation. Yet for all members of this House and the general public, we need to have confidence that our Armed Forces are properly equipped to do the job. This does not mean we complacently give into every demand, but it is the role of members to carefully scrutinise the defence budget, wasting spending and shortfalls are stopping our Armed shortfalls are stopping our Armed Forces for keeping safe in the most safe ways dash make effective ways.

There needs to be more information on finances in a timely manner so we can thoroughly scrutinise them and ensure Parliament that our Armed Forces are able to do their job in the most effective way, with world beating equipment.
15:25
Graeme Downie Portrait Graeme Downie MP (Dunfermline and Dollar, Labour)
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It is welcome that today's debate focuses on the national armaments director and comes as the Prime Minister attends the NATO summit when we are likely to see a greater focus on the need for action on defence spending. It is not all about press release, the national armaments director will allow the UK to focus on how money is being spent to increase the modality of the Armed Forces and ensure that the UK Armed Forces is sufficient to prevent a war no one in this chamber wants to see.

Greater focus on procurement and industrial planning, cracking down on waste and boosting Britain's defence industry. I want to see a move as quickly as possible. Only by doing that can we make sure adversaries know we are working on our own defence. I want the Minister to provide clarification and ensure that these are some of the first priorities for the armaments director and the Ministry of Defence. Scotland's position,... Threats to underwater cables in the Atlantic. The strategic defense review highlighted the importance to improve NATO's deterrence in the North.

And secretary general Mark Rutte talked about defence in the high North. The SDR spoke of the need for an always on supply learning for shipbuilding -- supply line. A simpler and cheaper fleet. The type 31 frigate is being built in my constituency would fit the bill for that move, along with providing requirement for always on supply shipbuilding. The first type 31 HMS was floated off and other ships ordered by the Royal Navy are progressing well.

Can I take this opportunity to thank the workforce for the contribution they make to our nation's defence in the construction of type 31 and the incredible work they do for us and our American allies. Can they confirm the armaments director will consider the need for more type 31 frigates? There have been many discussions in this place, particularly from the Member for Durham North, regarding the need to improve the UK's air defence capability. This is also with the capability.

This is also with the sky news podcast, with experts and advisers, I have been listening to for the last couple of weeks. Improving the capability will require a number of solutions with allies. Part of that has been suggested that the future dominance would be part of countering the threat from hypersonic missiles. With this threat in Ukraine and conflicts in the Middle East, can the Minister update on those As part of a increase in defence spending, it is vital we make defence an engine for growth, boosting prosperity, jobs and growth in every corner of the UK.

That we are strengthening the UK's industrial base to better deter adversaries and make the UK secure at home and strung abroad. Engaging all parts of society and business, including the growing network of high-tech and skilled manufacturers in my own constituency, across Scotland and the UK. We heard from the Secretary of State business and trade of the exciting prospect of difference growth fund which could bring together different parts to deliver combined objective of economic investment and improving defence. This could include opportunities for Fife Council, five College, both which could play a role in delivering on defence and providing the skills and training young people need and deserve.

This is a topic I have raised already, we have seen failure of the SNP government in areas such as skills and infrastructure. We have the position of senior people in the SNP saying it is party policy that public money should not be spent on military equipment. The SNP responding to a request from the Ukrainian government by dictating it could not be used on military casualties. A preposterous decision and detached from reality that put Scotland security at risk as well as reducing opportunities for young people in my own constituency.

Can I asked the Minister for updates in her discussions with Department for Business and Trade on the funds, and how that could benefit the people of Scotland as the SNP have failed to do so far? The government responded brilliantly to the global threats, building alliances, partnerships across the world and with the national armaments director and reorganisation already today, and the previous statements from the Front Bench. I hope we can accelerate as fast as we can along the path to make sure we meet those threats as the British public expect threats as the British public expect threats as the British public expect
15:31
Neil Shastri-Hurst Portrait Dr Neil Shastri-Hurst MP (Solihull West and Shirley, Conservative)
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This House will quite properly consider the scale and seriousness of the threats we face. From conventional deterrence in Europe, to strategic competition in the Indo-Pacific, the case for strengthening armed forces is not just compelling but essential. We must also be honest about how we found the renewal. And what you are willing to sacrifice in the process of doing so. Let me be clear, the case for increased defence spending is self-evident. I come along with many others, have long argued we must invest more in our sovereign capability, in critical munitions, advanced deterrence, and National Resilience Review this includes expanding their remit and resourcing of the National Armaments Director, a role whose strategic significance has grown substantially in today's volatile security environment.

The National Armaments Director is not merely a procurement official, they are the principal architect of our Defence Industrial Strategy, responsible for ensuring our Armed Forces are equipped not just adequately but decisively. Their portfolio expands capability planning, acquisition reform, export ability, and the stewardship of our defence supply base. From the factory floor to the frontline. In an age of contested logistics, technologic disruption, and rapid rearmament by authoritarian regimes, the role is fundamental to preserving operational readiness and the sovereign capability.

Delivering a credible deterrent in today's world with accelerating procurement cycles, building on regularity and accountability, strengthening domestic supply chains, and striving long-term collaboration between government, industry, and academia. government, industry, and academia. It means ensuring that we can serve production of the crisis, replenish stockpiles at speed, and invest in the innovation it gives us full strategic edge. This cannot be done in isolation or as an afterthought. It must be led, coordinated, embedded, across defence planning. Not in spite of fiscal pressures but because of them.

If we are serious about resilience, serious about readiness, and serious about regeneration, we must empower the National Armaments Director with the authority, capacity, and resources to act not simply as a technical overseer but as a strategic enabler at the heart of defence policy. Only then can we translate spending into real-world capability. And ensure that British power is not only credible on paper but deliverable in practice. I must be equally clear that this investment must not come at the expense International Development commitments.

To fund defence by cutting foreign aid is a force economy. Worst it risks undermining the strategic posture we seek to build. Aid is not an indulgence, it is not a soft option, and it is certainly not a luxury. It is an instrument of our national strategy. A projection of British values, a tool for soft power, and a forward deployed asset in the defence of the realm. When Britain pulls back from the world, adversaries do not hesitate to step in.

China in particular. It does not wait for crises to send in troops, it sends an investment, infra structure, influence will stop often to the very regions from which we have retreated. When we reduce aid, we do not save but we cede ground. We create vacuums that others are all too willing to fill. Let's be frank, foreign aid and defence are not in conflict. They are complimentary. One builds resilience, prevents crises and support allies, the other protects us as those crises unfold.

A truly strategic posture requires both as real security does not start when the first shot is fired. It starts in the classrooms and conflict zones, in the clinics of fragile states, and in the partnerships we forge for troubled take root. If we choose to retreat from the world, we should find that the world does not retreat from us.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you, Mr Speaker. My husband was an army Reservist in
15:36
Catherine Atkinson Portrait Catherine Atkinson MP (Derby North, Labour)
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was an army Reservist in Afghanistan, and he has not told me a great deal about what his job entailed but he has told me about taking helicopter flights, hugging close to the mountain's where the burnt out Soviet tanks ghostly guard. His interactions with the Afghan army and the civilians, and buying bread from locals and visiting children treated in hospital. It can be a throw are phrase used by politicians to say, "Our Armed Forces are the best in the world, " but it is one that I stand by.

And I know that so many of the families of our Armed Forces both in Derby across country stand by it too. As we celebrate Armed Forces Week in Derby I will be thinking of them. But it is absolutely essential that our Armed Forces have kicked and arms and technology that they need. In my view, those who serve our national security by working in the defence industry, and their families, and also have their contributions celebrated too. We are in a new era of threats.

Which demands a new era for UK defence. So it is absolutely right that this government has announced the largest sustained increase to defence spending to the end of the Cold War. And has already boosted defence spending by £5 billion this year. As the government increases defence spending, it is making defence and engine for growth. Boosting prosperity, jobs, and growth in every corner of the UK. Over the last few weeks, Derby has been mentioned many times in this chamber.

It is one city of many that is benefiting from the government's commitment to defence and security, in creating the skilled secure jobs that we see in our city and across Derbyshire and East Midlands too. The UK based firms will be prioritised for government investment under the new Defence Industrial Strategy, to drive economic growth and boost British jobs and strengthen national security. But under the last government, small businesses often felt locked out of defence. And just 4% of government defence spend went to small and enterprises.

I believe this government is right in prioritising government investment for UK based firms, under the new industrial defence strategy. So we can drive growth and jobs. And have specific support to open the door to small businesses. Derby has a large part to play because we make things in Derby. Rolls-Royce in Derby was known to have recreated an engine first produced in 1936 and used in Lancaster bombers and Spitfires and Hurricanes. We also had Rolls-Royce submarines in Derby, who have built the nuclear reactors that power our sea deterrent.

UK submarines are the most awesome and lethal machines in the world history. I believe in the power of politics and the power of negotiation to preserve peace, a peace we all desperately want to see. But we have to acknowledge that our submarines, the sheer size and power of them has spoken more loudly than words for over 60 years. And they help underwrite our security. Because we can't wish away the threats that exist and are growing, and we have to deter them.

Time and time again our prime minister has confirmed security and defence is the first duty of the government. That priority can be seen in the investment that is being made. And from submarines to drones, Derby has a major role to play in supporting the government to make and keep Britain safe, secure at home, and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

strong abroad. Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you
15:41
John Cooper Portrait John Cooper MP (Dumfries and Galloway, Conservative)
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**** Possible New Speaker ****

Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you for I have been banging on about the need to mobilise which industry as need to mobilise which industry as we ramp up for possible conflict in an increasingly hostile world. I welcome the news that the new National Armaments Director is being resourced to oversee the alliance of our military brains and brawn with the sinews of British defence industry. Civilians talk tactics, veterans talk logistics, and we know that a modern army is depending not so much on its stomach is on a long supply chain and could in small and medium-sized enterprises was top this extends, to use the military's favourite phrase, to all domains.

We have seen the reality of modern warfare, from the hell of trenches in occupied Ukraine to the arid highlands of Iran. We have seen high-tech systems, drones, cyber, space, and stealth undergo a baptism of fire. But we have also seen weapons that would have been familiar to my infantry grandfather in Gallipoli in 1915, apply that trade to deadly effect will stop artillery remains the Queen of the battlefield. While our sailors, soldiers, and aircrew at the tip of the spear, the essential shaft is the spear, the essential shaft is our factories and shipyards.

They know that every corner of the country can play their part. There is bad news from Scotland under the SNP. The Nationalists and the Green Party fellow travellers have engendered a hostile environment for defence firms. We have seen young apprentices denied entrance to the Holyrood parliament by an elected representative tips now to lead the Green Party. In recent days we have seen the former First Minister Humza Yousaf, still SNP, blundering around the world stage and allowing US military aircraft to refuel and bemoaning the prescription of the saboteurs of the Palestine Action.

There is a presumption that the Scottish Government will not channel funding towards ordinance, a battlefield pre-requisite. That led this government to step in to say there will help fund a new Rolls- Royce centre of welding excellent, full submarine and warship building was the stakes could not be higher. Scotland is already a defence powerhouse. Umbrella body ADS estimate 68,250 people in Scotland and the sector reducing Royal Navy ships, of atomic masks, and smart missiles such as Storm Shadow. My old constituency produces the helmets vital for F-35 fighter- bombers, of which we are purchasing 12 more alpha variants.

Some 2023 show the MoD spending £270 per person living in Scotland. It is ought to be Britain's Arsenal. And Scotland should be top of the entry for the National Armaments Director. Yet firms wanting to set up the new ordnance factories recommended in the SDR, or seeking to expand to fill new MoD orders cannot count on financial support via the Scottish Government. Whose side is Scotland's first Minister on? And Can the minister here tell the House what powers the new armaments director will have to eliminate the Scottish Government reckless policies on defence?
15:44
Tom Hayes Portrait Tom Hayes MP (Bournemouth East, Labour)
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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to start by thanking everyone in our Armed Forces who serves, who has served, and who has fallen. Our country is safer and better because of their service. In assessing the financial necessity of meeting our defence needs, it is important first of all to take a look at the state of our world. That involves a look at not only our real adversaries but are potential adversaries. Moreover, our allies and the most powerful country in the world, the United States.

I want to do this because I think the two often in our country and across the world, there is an assumption that somehow the foreign policy of the current president will be a blip. And I don't believe that to be so. I want to spend a little time talking about this because I think it is important for my constituents and also for the House. To reflect on the reality, as this country and government sentence path towards a long-term investment in towards a long-term investment in After being dismissed as a phenomenon of a great power leaving, so is the strategy by President Trump.

The most important strategic process affecting the patient is to do with Paris and a revisionist foreign policy. This is according to the national security strategy released by President Biden. In a year that defined cooperation -- a bill that helped define the era was ended by President Trump. Two contrasting presidencies, two sides of the same coin. As Russia legally invaded Ukraine, a sovereign democratic country, China made clear its designs on Taiwan, a sovereign democratic country, those countries have strengthened their ties and collaborated against other US rivals.

The main priority of American foreign policy's great competition is clear, aspiration of the outcome that the US stays ahead of the pack is clear. We in this House will debate the motivations and the character of the behaviour of President Trump. It will be open to interpretation. In some important ways, his worldview is a more settled nature. With him and Joe Biden as President and the US is a great, pursuing US interests is an enduring feature, and for some time, we have been hearing a story about how America sees itself and the world.

We would be foolish to see this as a blip. It is a continuation of a tradition. Of course there are differences in the presidency in terms of the approach to diplomacy and the assessment of American interest and how aggressively it should be preferred and in terms of American values and how devoted they should be held and in terms of collaborating with countries like the UK, it is been seen as a means or an end, to pursue economic or an end, to pursue economic strength.

The presidency and presidents do not differ in assessments of the international system and the need for competition. This is a critical point that defines UK Defence decisions this year and subsequent years. I have a preference for a particular style of behaviour. I would much prefer the President Biden form of foreign policy. The outcomes that are being pursued are clear. This begs the question, whoever succeeds President Trump, will be deviate from or continue this foreign policy? I would argue that it will be continuation.

If the priority of the UK's closest ally is to stay ahead of those autocracies and we have stronger ties and shared values with the US, it is in our interest to do all we can to counter the rise of those rivals and mitigate against their was behaviours and legislate against threats to our values and the US were possible and other democracies to make the same assessment of the threat. That is why it is so important that we are investing in Defence capabilities.

We are making the largest increase to Defence spending, have boosted Defence spending by £5 billion this year. We are committed to achieving year. We are committed to achieving 4.1% of spending by GDP by 2027 and 5% by 2035 and I commend that strongly, giving the international circumstances that we face. It is important to do and it is important in this House to educate our constituencies about why it is so important. In this House, it's important to bring direct scrutiny to Defence decisions.

I want. Please sit down. It's important to bring the right scrutiny to decisions and Defence strategy and it is important that across this House that we conduct ourselves in an appropriate fashion. In advancing our Defence and security, we should be united and as a House, we have to come together to find solutions to a lack of unity in a cross-party B. We have marked the 80th anniversary of VE Day this year. The memory is not enough. Imagine a world without
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