House of Commons

Thursday 20th June 2013 Commons Chamber

Thursday 20 June 2013

The House met at half-past Nine o’clock

Prayers

Thursday 20th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Business Before Questions

Contingencies Fund Account 2012-13

Ordered,

That there be laid before this House an Account of the Contingencies Fund, 2012-13, showing:

(1) A Statement of Financial Position;

(2) A Statement of Cash Flows; and

(3) Notes to the Accounts; together with the Certificate and Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon.—(Greg Clark)

Oral Answers to Questions

Thursday 20th June 2013 Commons Chamber

The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport was asked—

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

1. What assessment she has made of the effect of the 2010 spending review on national museums outside London.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

The 2010 spending review protected free admission to the permanent collections of our national museums by limiting cuts in resource funding to 15% in real terms. Resource grant funding for national museums will reduce by only 5% in 2015-16, and they will be given flexibility to manage their budgets independently.

[Andrew Gwynne]

With the Science Museum Group’s projected deficit to increase from the current £2 million to £4 million or even £6 million, depending on the outcome of the spending review, what confidence does the Minister have in the future viability of that group, and in it maintaining the historically important collections at Manchester’s Liverpool Road station site, home of the Museum of Science and Industry?

[Mr Vaizey]

Since the Science Museum Group took over the running of the Manchester Museum of Science and Industry, visitor numbers have risen by 30%, so the answer is there; the group is running MOSI incredibly effectively, and will continue to run its three or four outposts outside London effectively.

[Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

While Government money is, of course, important, will the Minister join me in celebrating the amazing fundraising work of our museums, including the Submarine museum in Gosport, which has raised more than £6.5 million through heritage funding and lots of fundraising in order to restore HMS Alliance?

[Mr Vaizey]

I am delighted to endorse what my hon. Friend says. There is a huge amount of philanthropy outside London and we have made it far easier to give to the arts. We have invested through the Catalyst Fund in endowments and fundraising capacity.

[Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)]

16. The artefacts in the science museums, including locomotives in the National Railway museum, are expensive to maintain and that museum is concerned it will not have enough money for conservation, preservation, research and dissemination of information about its collections. Will the Minister address specifically that point in his evidence to the Culture, Media and Sport Committee?

[Mr Vaizey]

I am sure I will specifically address that point, because I am sure the Committee will ask me about it. The Science Museum Group has aired a lot of its concerns, and we will certainly address them.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

2. What discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on trends in the number of low- paid and unpaid jobs in the entertainment industry.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

The national minimum wage underpins wage levels for those at work and applies equally in the creative sector as elsewhere. The Government support industry in its efforts to provide employment opportunities for young people in the entertainment industry through initiatives such as the creative employment programme, the charity Creative Access, and the forthcoming launch of UK Music’s skills academy.

[Kerry McCarthy]

I thank the Minister for that response, and I particularly welcome what he said yesterday about paid internships in the creative industries. It is still the case, however, that many professional freelancers are expected to work for nothing or for very low pay. Sometimes, everyone involved in a production is being paid except for the musicians and actors who are fronting it up. What will the Minister do about that?

[Mr Vaizey]

The exploitation of interns is unacceptable, and as I said, the music industry is working hard. In particular, UK Music takes a strong lead on the issue and is setting up the UK music skills academy. The charity Creative Access, with the BPI, will give work experience to 300 individuals who will be paid. I pay tribute to the hon. Lady who continues to campaign on this matter and many other issues in the music industry.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend consider that the question seriously underestimates the value of extras and walk-on parts in the theatre and the palace of varieties? One needs walk-on parts to swell a progress, start a scene or two—to be deferential, or glad to be of use. Is not one of the problems with too many theatre troupes that everyone wants to play the role of Hamlet, which is just not possible?

[Mr Speaker]

I hope that was not autobiographical in any way.

[Mr Vaizey]

I concur with my hon. Friend that not everyone can be Hamlet.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the Minister realise that there is such a pool of talent out there, including people with high, graduate qualifications? Surely we could use those people as a resource in our schools, for example, or leading community groups and so on. We must think of new ways and channels to use these young people to give them a start and an income.

[Mr Vaizey]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very important point, so I hope that he will support the Government, who want to allow people to teach in schools if they have the ability to inspire our young people, rather than shut them out artificially by forcing them to take a teaching degree.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

Surely it cannot be right that musicians and entertainers are about the only group of industrial workers still expected to work for nothing in the 21st century. Will the Minister guarantee that no Government or Government-sponsored event will now ever allow musicians to go unpaid?

[Mr Vaizey]

If the hon. Gentleman wants to give me some examples, I will certainly look into them, but I would not expect the Government to start from that point of view.

[Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con)]

3. What progress she has made on delivering broadband to rural areas.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

Twenty-six local broadband contracts have now been signed under our rural broadband programme, representing over 70% of funding. Derbyshire supplier bids are expected in July, with installation commencing in 2014, and the first cabinets are expected to be rolled out in advance of the Tour de France cycle race, which is scheduled to visit England in July 2014.

[Andrew Bingham]

May I stress how vital faster broadband is for the vitality and viability of the rural economy? I often refer to it as the fourth utility. Faster internet access will be crucial to rural areas if we are to not only retain our businesses, but attract new ones. Will the Secretary of State reassure my local businesses that the Government remain committed to faster broadband rolled out to rural areas such as the High Peak?

[Maria Miller]

I can say absolutely yes, which is why we have got a £1.2 billion infrastructure programme already under way, meaning that more than 10 million more homes and businesses will get access to superfast broadband by the end of the Parliament. Furthermore, the rural community broadband fund is already further supporting rural communities, having made its first award to Rothbury in Northumberland. My hon. Friend will be aware that many local authorities with large rural communities in areas such as Lancashire, Cheshire and Cambridgeshire are going further with investment. I know that he will be doing all he can to encourage his local authority to do likewise.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

The Financial Times reported last week that the National Audit Office was to deliver a very critical report on this exercise, arguing that it failed to deliver a proper bidding process, after only BT bid, saying it lacked competition and describing it as

“a train crash waiting to happen”.

Why did Ministers forget the importance of competition in this exercise?

[Maria Miller]

The right hon. Gentleman will also know that the NAO has said that we have some of the best and most transparent processes for evaluating the work going on in this area, so I would encourage him to read the full report.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

Good progress is being made in Gloucestershire on broadband, but does the Secretary of State agree that it is important to work with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in promoting local small businesses in places such as Stroud, Dursley and Nailsworth?

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We must ensure that when we have access to superfast broadband in local areas, businesses understand its value, and that is why we have always said that this is not only about investing in the roll-out of this infrastructure, but about ensuring that businesses understand how it can help them.

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

Last week, I attended the launch of Digital Teesdale. Will the Secretary of State join me in congratulating Labour Durham county council and the voluntary group Barnard Castle Vision, which are the partners that have delivered it, and will she say why she is signing contracts for delivery in 2016, when her target is for delivery in 2015?

[Maria Miller]

I thank the hon. Lady for raising such an important project as the one in Durham. It is such projects that can make a real difference, filling in the gaps of the national programme. On the delivery of the programmes, we are pushing hard to get roll-out as quickly as possible, and she will of course know that a considerable number of local authorities have already opened their first boxes. That progress will continue apace. As I said earlier, 70% of the funding allocations have already been signed off.

[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)]

4. What progress she has made on rolling out high- speed broadband across the UK.

[The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller)]

Two thirds of premises in the UK now have superfast broadband available and 100,000 more homes and businesses are getting coverage every week. Average speeds increased by 69% last year.

[Mrs Gillan]

I do not think that this is going fast enough, and that is not good enough. Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating the New Economics Foundation, which has published a report this week showing how the country could get much better value for the billions that are about to be spent on HS2 by diverting some of those billions into superfast broadband? Does she agree with Sir Charles Dunstone, the chairman of Talk Talk, who also says that HS2 money would be better spent by investing in high-speed broadband, and will she please stand up for this with her colleagues in Cabinet?

[Maria Miller]

My right hon. Friend clearly has many things to say on high-speed rail, but I will leave that for another Minister. I can tell her that 100,000 more homes and businesses every week are getting access to superfast broadband. We are leading the way in Europe on investment in broadband, and we are in the top three of EU members states on coverage, take-up, usage and choice.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

The Government backed north Yorkshire early on and we are about to deliver on having 90% homes with superfast broadband by early next year. We need a little bit more money to get to 95%. Will the Secretary of State meet me to discuss how much we need?

[Maria Miller]

I am always happy for hon. Friends to meet the Minister responsible, and I am sure he will make that a priority. [Laughter.] In all seriousness, my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) is right: we want even more coverage in the country. I would perhaps ask him to look in detail at how the rollout of 4G will help his community, which, after all, will leave the country with 98% coverage in its access to superfast facilities.

[Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)]

6. What steps she is taking to increase participation in sport in West Lancashire.

[The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Hugh Robertson)]

The latest participation figures show that 37% of people in West Lancashire are playing sport once a week, which is above the national average. In addition, Lancashire is hosting both an Ashes test and the rugby league world cup this year, which I am sure will maintain enthusiasm for sport in the county.

[Rosie Cooper]

Participation rates in the north-west have fallen and Conservative-run West Lancashire borough council has closed Skelmersdale sports centre with no replacement in sight, provided unplayable football pitches due to inadequate drainage, and has made deep cuts in leisure service provision while sitting on tens of millions of pounds in reserves. Does the Minister think that the borough council’s approach is the right one to achieve an increase in participation rates and honour the Olympic legacy?

[Hugh Robertson]

The hon. Lady needs to be careful with her figures. If she is arguing that the participation rates have fallen, that is only for the winter. I was told that rugby league, which is big in her part of the world, had a week in which 96% of all its fixtures were cancelled. That explains the drop-off in participation. [Interruption.] Well yes; because when there is snow on the ground you can’t play rugby league. I would have thought that as the shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) could have probably worked that out. The fact is that participation rates are above the national average in the part of the world the hon. Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) represents. I encourage local authorities to make use of both the Olympic effect and the many sports fixtures coming to her part of the world this year to drive up rates.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

At best, the active people figure for West Lancashire has flatlined, and participation rates in the north-west have gone down. Overall, the country has seen a reduction of 200,000. It is less than a year since the Olympic games and what have we got? Some 68% of school sports organisers tell us that fewer children are doing sport and that they are spending less time doing it. While the rest of us looked forward to an Olympic legacy, the Government were wrecking school sports partnerships. Now they are blaming the weather for adult figures going down. Rather than riding on the back of fluctuations in the climate, will the Minister get to the Dispatch Box and tell us what he is going to do to deliver a sustainable Olympic legacy?

[Hugh Robertson]

The first thing is that the hon. Gentleman has got his figures wrong. The second is that anybody with an iota of common sense would accept that if there is snow on the ground rugby league cannot be played, and that if there is ice on the road people are unlikely take their bicycles out. In the period since 2005 when we won the bid, up to the moment when, across two Governments, we delivered the games, London was the first host city to deliver a sustained increase—of 1.4 million—in participation. I pay tribute to the policy devised by James Purnell and carried through by the right hon. Members for Leigh (Andy Burnham) and for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) when they were Secretaries of State. We should celebrate the fact that this country has achieved what no other country in the history of the Olympic games has ever achieved. Ranting and carping is pretty stupid.

[Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)]

7. What assessment she has made of tourism spend in the UK.

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

11. What assessment she has made of tourism spend in the UK.

[The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller)]

In the 12 months to April 2013, tourism spend by international visitors in the UK was up 13% to a record £19.9 billion. This result highlights the importance of tourism in this country, which contributes £115 billion on average to the UK economy each year.

[Damian Hinds]

That is very encouraging, but looking forward a decade, what projection has my right hon. Friend made of demand for passenger arrivals capacity and beds? Is she confident that the industry can meet that demand to maximise the export earnings opportunity?

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend is right that we should always keep these sorts of things under close review, which is exactly what we do. He will be aware that Sir Howard Davies is undertaking an independent review of airport capacity and how we can better use existing capacity. He is due to report in 2015. As for accommodation, the figures for the UK overall show that we have a one-third capacity available in hotel accommodation across the country. There are particular issues in London, which is why I very much welcome this week’s announcement of £700 million of investment in luxury hotel accommodation at Nine Elms, which we should applaud the Mayor for securing.

[Stephen Mosley]

I recently had the pleasure of attending the launch of Chester Civil War Tours, a new small company showing people the sights of the siege of Chester in the civil war, including the battlefields and also the pubs. What role does my right hon. Friend think heritage and culture have in promoting tourism in our towns and cities?

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight the importance of culture in supporting the tourism industry. That is why I was so pleased that the Treasury was able to understand the arguments we put forward and that we have secured such a strong deal for the culture sector in this country.

[Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) (Lab)]

The situation facing the tourism industry in the north-east is unfortunately less positive. We have seen a reduction of 60,000 in the last year. What action will the Secretary of State take to ensure that the north-east is not left behind?

[Maria Miller]

The hon. Lady is right to say that we want every corner of the country to have a strong tourism industry. That is why our “Holidays at Home are GREAT” campaign is the biggest ever domestic tourism campaign aimed at exactly what she is looking for, which is to boost tourism throughout the UK.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

Few city regions have seen as much growth in the visitor economy as Merseyside over recent years. This has been underpinned by the work that the local authorities have done in the boroughs. What conversations has the Secretary of State had with Communities and Local Government Ministers about ensuring that the spending review does not put that investment at risk?

[Maria Miller]

Through the work we do on the GREAT campaign, we bring together Ministers from many different Departments to ensure a co-ordinated approach to how we market Britain abroad. The hon. Lady’s part of England has a strong story to tell when it comes to marketing Britain, which is something I hope she would work with me on.

[Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con)]

It is excellent news that visitor numbers and visitor spend rose last year to record levels, but my right hon. Friend will also be aware that the UK still slipped by one place, from seventh to eighth, in the list of top 10 destinations. Can she say what is being done to attract more visitors to the UK, particularly from China, many of whom are still being deterred by the cost and difficulty of obtaining visas?

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that we always need to be actively marketing Britain abroad. That is where our GREAT campaign, with £37 million already invested, comes into its own. It is a campaign that this country can be proud of. As for visas, we have made significant improvements to the situation that we inherited. We have now seen an increase of, I believe, around 30% in visas from that country.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

The tourism economy in Wales is worth £5 billion a year and employs 8% of the population, including many in my constituency. This week the Welsh Government announced a new target to increase that figure by 10%, including by increasing inward tourists from Ireland and the United States in particular. Does the Secretary of State welcome that and will she commit to meet and work with the Welsh Government to promote Wales, as well as England and the UK?

[Maria Miller]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question. We work closely with the Welsh Government through VisitBritain. This is a shared objective. VisitBritain has a clear target of increasing international tourism by 33% by 2015, and that will mean some 200,000 extra jobs in this country. Tourism is an important sector, and we have some excellent support plans in place.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

My constituency is particularly dependent on tourism. What discussions has the Secretary of State had with the Treasury about the capacity for reducing VAT in line with some of the countries on the continent? That might help the sector to grow, and would be particularly helpful to the tourism business in Somerset.

[Maria Miller]

I understand the point that my hon. Friend is making, but there would clearly be a significant cost associated with any such change to VAT. I prefer to invest positively in our country as a place to visit. At the moment, the Treasury is not convinced that there is a correlation between a cut in VAT and any benefit in terms of figures.

[Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)]

8. What assessment she has made of the contribution of the arts and creative industries to the economy.

[The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller)]

The Centre for Economics and Business Research estimates that arts and culture had a turnover of £12.4 billion and a gross value added of £5.9 billion in 2011. The creative industries contribute £36.3 billion in gross value added, accounting for almost 3% of gross value added in the UK in 2009.

[Mr Bradshaw]

Copyright theft costs our writers, artists and musicians billions of pounds a year. Three years ago, this House legislated on action to tackle that. When is the Secretary of State going to show that she is not in the pocket of Google and the other internet service providers by doing something to enforce the will of the House and enforce the law?

[Maria Miller]

The right hon. Gentleman will know, given that he had my job in the previous Government, that the detail of that legislation requires a great deal of working through. That is a huge priority for this Government and I can assure him that we are working closely to ensure that copyright support is put in place as soon as possible.

[Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that creative business incubators such as the workshop that is opening in Tontine street in Folkestone this month, along with the Government’s seed enterprise investment scheme, will give a real boost to start-up businesses in the creative sector?

[Maria Miller]

Absolutely. The Government’s investment in culture and the arts will ensure that those start-up firms have the necessary stimulus to enable them to thrive.

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)]

A key element of any strategy for the arts and the creative industries must include support for all regions of the country. In these challenging economic circumstances, the Government should be working with local authorities to make the case for culture and to explain its social and economic benefits. Will the Secretary of State tell us what she is doing to help councils to support the arts and the creative industries in their local communities?

[Maria Miller]

I am not doing what the hon. Gentleman is doing in supporting a council such as Newcastle, which wanted to cut its arts budget by 100%. I hope, given his question, that he now realises that that was a big mistake. I am glad that the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) intervened and overruled the decision that he had made. I could give him many examples of the work that we are doing to support the regions in this way, and I draw his attention in particular to our comments yesterday on the Arts Council, which is investing £174.5 million this year in national portfolio organisations outside London. It is of course the Arts Council that has the role of supporting regional culture and arts, and I think it is doing a good job.

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

9. What recent discussions she has had with her counterpart in the Scottish Government on the development of swimming in the UK.

[The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Hugh Robertson)]

I meet Scottish Ministers regularly to discuss a range of sports policy issues. Chief among those are the Glasgow Commonwealth games in 2014 and the Youth Olympic games bid for 2018, both of which include swimming competitions.

[Michael Connarty]

I commend the Government in England for making it compulsory at key stages 1 and 2 to teach children to swim. However, that entitlement does not exist in Scotland. There has been a call from the Amateur Swimming Association not only to train swimmers for the Commonwealth and Olympic games but for better swimming safety. It wants a national entitlement to swimming teaching. In 2011, six children died by accidental drowning in Scotland and 47 in the UK; the figure for adults in the UK in that year was 407. Surely it is a human right for people to learn to swim so that they do not drown if they fall into the water.

[Hugh Robertson]

I do not know about a basic human right; it is a matter of common sense and safety. There is no doubt that there is a straightforward correlation between young people learning to swim and curbing deaths by drowning. I would encourage anybody to ensure that every single one of our young children is able to swim.

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

10. What assessment her Department has made of the potential benefits to a city of achieving UK city of culture status.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

The potential benefits of becoming the UK city of culture will be increased investment in cultural activities, a great deal of media coverage and a huge increase in visitor numbers.

[Jim McGovern]

I am sure the Minister will be aware of early-day motion 156, tabled in my name, which supports Dundee’s bid to be UK city of culture in 2017. I realise that it would be difficult for him to say that he supports one city, but is he aware that not one single SNP Member has signed that early-day motion? Is that because they would prefer Dundee not to be part of the UK in 2017?

[Mr Speaker]

I think we will give that one a miss, because the Minister has no responsibility for the policies of the Scottish National party. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) is chuntering from a sedentary position that he has signed it, but I am not concerned with who has or has not signed it; I am concerned with the matter of ministerial responsibility. The hon. Member for Dundee West (Jim McGovern) has made his point; it is on the record, so we will move on.

[Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)]

12. What her policy is on the repatriation of indigenous Australian human remains from UK cultural institutions.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

The Government continue to endorse the joint declaration signed by the Governments of the UK and Australia in 2000, which states that human remains in UK collections that come from Australia should be returned wherever possible. Decisions on individual claims are a matter for museum trustees or the governing authorities of the institutions involved.

[Andrew Rosindell]

I thank the Minister for his reply, but he will of course understand the importance not only to the Australian people but to the Aboriginal community in particular of returning these human remains based in UK institutions. What will Her Majesty’s Government do this year to ensure that the process of returning those remains takes place as quickly as possible?

[Mr Vaizey]

I met the high commissioner a couple of years ago to discuss this issue, and it is certainly the case that the Natural History museum, for example, has already agreed the return of 138 sets of remains to the Torres Strait islands. I was pleased that the museum was able to host a Torres Strait islander to work with it on scientific and museum skills. I will certainly continue to keep an open door to the high commissioner, should he wish to raise the issue with me again.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Mr David Morris. Not here.

[Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)]

14. What assessment she has made of the potential effect on the Science Museum Group of further budget reductions.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

The Department receives evidence from sponsored bodies as part of the spending review. The Science Museum Group has projected an operating deficit from 2014 and it is assessing a range of options to address this. As I said earlier, the national museums will see a resource grant funding reduction of only 5% in 2015-16 and a great deal of new freedoms.

[Mr Leech]

I congratulate the Minister and the Secretary of State on securing a great deal from the Treasury to secure the future of museums in Manchester, Bradford and York. Does the Minister agree with me that, rather than consider charging an entry fee, the Science Museum Group should be looking at other ways of generating additional revenue from its visitors, not least as 5 million people have visited the four museums in the last 12 months?

[Mr Vaizey]

Yes I do. It is this Government’s policy to maintain free admission to our national museums’ permanent collections, but museums can, of course, raise revenue in other ways. People who visit them using the free entry spend money while they are there. We have also, of course, made great strides in helping to increase philanthropy.

[Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)]

15. What steps she is taking to promote domestic tourism.

[The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller)]

Working with VisitEngland, the Government are investing £60 million between 2011 and 2015 to promote domestic tourism, which I believe is a key driver for economic growth.

[Andrew Stephenson]

The Hoseasons group, based in Earby in my constituency, helps millions of holidaymakers to choose self-catering accommodation or short breaks in tens of thousands of properties across the UK every year. What is my right hon. Friend doing to work with companies such as Hoseasons in boosting domestic tourism?

[Maria Miller]

Companies such as the one my hon. Friend has identified are working actively with us on the campaigns that we run and are often partners investing cash in these campaigns as well. With 104 million overnight trips in England made by British residents, their work is successful—and that success is clear to see.

[Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)]

17. Whether the draft Communications Data Bill will include provisions on media ownership.

[The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller)]

Lord Justice Leveson's report made a number of recommendations on plurality and media ownership. This summer, the Government will explain how they plan to seek views on the issue and implement Lord Justice Leveson's recommendations. The Communications Data Bill is being led by the Home Office, and will not include provisions on media ownership because media plurality does not form part of communications data policy.

[Katy Clark]

Does the Secretary of State agree that ownership of newspapers and other media is too concentrated in the hands of too few, and that we need a cap on ownership in the different sectors of the media?

[Maria Miller]

As I have said, Lord Justice Leveson dealt with that issue in his report—albeit not in a detailed manner—and we have agreed that some issues need to be considered further, in particular the lack of clarity in regard to how plurality should be measured and what constitutes a sufficient level of plurality. I hope that the hon. Lady will join me in seeking answers to questions of that kind in the coming months.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that any media ownership regime must strike the right balance between allowing plurality and allowing growth in the industry?

[Maria Miller]

Absolutely. We do not want companies to become unwilling to invest in the United Kingdom for fear of running into an unnecessary cap on their expansion.

[Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)]

T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller)]

What a week it has been for British sport! Yesterday England romped home in the cricket match against South Africa, Andy Murray won at Queen’s Club, and Hampshire’s own—indeed, Basingstoke’s own—Justin Rose became the first Englishman to win the United States Open since 1970. I am sure that the whole House will join me in wishing our cricketers good luck in the weekend’s Champions Trophy final and in this summer’s Ashes. I wish Andy Murray good luck at Wimbledon, and I wish all the British golfers—whether they are from Hampshire or not—good luck in next month’s Open.

[Mr Speaker]

I might just add that Greg Rusedski, a former US Open finalist, and other coaches came to New Palace Yard yesterday to help to teach state school children how to play tennis.

[Mike Freer]

May I turn my right hon. Friend to the issue of equalities, which is also part of her portfolio? Can she tell me what progress has been made in the removal of the spousal veto from the gender recognition certification process?

[Maria Miller]

I pay tribute to all the work that my hon. Friend has done in this regard. As he will know, the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill is currently being debated in the other place. We are continuing to discuss the issue that he has raised with transgender groups, but I gently remind him that it is actually an issue for the Ministry of Justice. Perhaps he could raise it with my right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor.

[Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)]

May I take up the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark)?

I hope the Secretary of State agrees that, despite our political differences and the occasional blip, and despite the fact that we are by no means out of the woods yet, we worked well together on the basis of trust and good faith, and worked well with the Liberal Democrats, in trying to sort out the question of press complaints following the Leveson report. However, as she has just said, we have yet to deal with the important issue of monopoly media ownership, which prevents the market from operating by preventing new entrants to it, as well as being bad for democracy.

May I ask the Secretary of State to do what the Government did before, namely set up and lead cross-party talks on the question of media ownership? We—and, I am sure, the Liberal Democrats—would be very willing to work with the Government to deal with that aspect of the Leveson inquiry, which is important and has not yet been tackled.

[Maria Miller]

I observed no blips in our working together; I thought that it went very well indeed.

We have already agreed on how to deal with the issue raised by the right hon. and learned Lady. We will seek views on it in the summer. Lord Justice Leveson himself said that he was not able to devote enough time to considering media plurality matters in detail, and I think that we need to do so now. I think that if we are to provide the sort of broad policy framework that we need, we should seek views on those matters rather than engaging in further political discussion.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

T3. What assessment have the Government made of the impact of TV advertising on online gambling? What is the cumulative effect on the nation of a surfeit of Ray Winstone?

[The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Hugh Robertson)]

I am not sure we directly know the answer to that, but I will find out and write to my hon. Friend.

[Mrs Linda Riordan (Halifax) (Lab/Co-op)]

T2. Will the Minister inform the House on when a decision will be made on the future location of the Arts Council collection, and if northern towns like Halifax will be considered as a home for the collection?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

I had a meeting with the hon. Lady and a delegation some time ago, and she put a very compelling case for Halifax. We will continue discussions with the Arts Council about the future location of the Arts Council collection. Should we start to make progress, I will keep the hon. Lady informed.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

T4. It is the Britten centenary, and the Aldeburgh festival has been another rip-roaring success. Will my right hon. Friend join me in celebrating arts outside the metropolis, including the fantastic performances of “Grimes on the Beach” that we have greatly enjoyed in Aldeburgh in the last week?

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I had the privilege of attending the Aldeburgh festival a week and a half ago. It is an amazing event, celebrating also the life of one of Britain’s greatest artists, Benjamin Britten.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

T7. Does the Secretary of State agree with me that the BBC should be open and accountable, and does she share my concern that the director of diversity will give me any details I want about ethnicity but will not give me any answer about education—about how many privately educated people work in the BBC and how many state-school people work in the BBC? Many people suspect it is stuffed full of people from private schools. Is that right?

[Maria Miller]

I can understand the hon. Gentleman’s desire for transparency and accountability from all public bodies, and that is something I would join him in supporting. Issues to do with personnel are very much matters for the BBC, however.

[Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)]

T5. When News International was allowed to buy The Times newspaper, the condition was set that the editor could not be changed without the explicit approval of the non-executive directors. In the event that such a convention was broken, what would the Secretary of State’s powers of intervention be?

[Maria Miller]

My right hon. Friend will know that John Witherow has been appointed as acting editor of The Times. Appointing a new editor of The Times is a matter for the independent national directors and shareholders. There would be an opportunity to intervene to enforce the requirement for separate publications to be maintained; that is really where my powers come into play.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

The international festival for business is a national event, which next year will take place in Liverpool in June and July. A quarter of a million visitors are expected. It is supported by the Prime Minister, and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills is providing significant financial resource. What support will DCMS provide to ensure that the cultural offer that supports the conference and the other events is significant and promotes all that the top arts and creative industries have to provide?

[Mr Vaizey]

The hon. Lady raised this point in yesterday’s Opposition day debate. She also extolled the many cultural virtues of Liverpool, and I heartily endorse her comments. I am sorry that I did not answer her question then. As I understand it, the Arts Council is talking to Liverpool about the cultural support it can give around the international festival, and I will talk to the Arts Council about its plans, and write to the hon. Lady.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

T6. The England football team is a valuable national asset, yet of the millions of pounds raised, over 50% goes to the professional game, not the impoverished grass roots; I speak as a director of Warrington Town football club, an example of the impoverished grass roots. Does the Minister intend to follow the Select Committee recommendation and make it Government policy to make a switch in regard to that funding?

[Hugh Robertson]

The Government can clearly direct funding only when they provide that funding, which they do through the whole sport plans and the football foundations. However, the Football Association is a signatory to the new code we set up in 2010 at the last review of the list, whereby it is pledged to give 30% of its UK broadcast income to grass-roots sport.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

I am sure the Minister will agree that the advice from Derry/Londonderry to the shortlisted cities for the second UK city of culture would be that inclusion, integrity and imagination are key to any successful bid in a given year. Will he encourage the BBC to be as well engaged with the second city of culture as it has been with the first?

[Mr Vaizey]

I did not get the chance during the earlier exchange to congratulate Dundee, as well as Hull, Leicester and Swansea bay, on making the shortlist, and I thoroughly endorse what the hon. Gentleman says. I do hope the BBC will support the next UK capital of culture, as it supported Derry/Londonderry.

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

What support is the Department giving to the Tour de France next year in the Yorkshire stages and the stage from my Cambridge constituency down to London?

[Hugh Robertson]

I think, in the nicest possible way, that the hon. Gentleman may wish he had not asked me that question. The Government have provided a considerable amount of underwriting. They have underwritten the whole event and provided the balance to make up a budget of £21 million. Unfortunately, Cambridge has yet to contribute at all, and that is one of the issues we will address in the weeks ahead.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

Newcastle United football club is also a national asset. Does the Minister share my utter bewilderment and that of tens of thousands of Newcastle United supporters at the arrival of Joe Kinnear on Tyneside?

[Hugh Robertson]

One of the things for which I am eternally grateful is that my job’s remit does not extend to the appointment of managers or sorting out the weekly round of scraps on a Saturday afternoon. I think I will leave that to the hon. Gentleman, if that is all right.

[Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)]

May I congratulate the Secretary of State on at long last ensuring that all 21 flags of the British overseas territories and Crown dependencies were flown from Parliament square last week for the Trooping of the Colour? However, will she explain to the House why, for the state opening of Parliament, there were 21 empty flagpoles with no Union flags flying for the arrival of Her Majesty the Queen?

[Maria Miller]

This is something of great importance, and we will look into it and write to my hon. Friend with an answer.

[Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)]

A full three months ago, this House debated a royal charter on the independent self-regulation of the press. It was supposed to go to the Privy Council. It did not. Meanwhile, certain recalcitrant elements of the press put their own royal charter in. Can the Secretary of State please explain to the nation what on earth is going on, and when she expects the Privy Council to consider the royal charter that was debated democratically in this House?

[Maria Miller]

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the Government are working to take forward Lord Justice Leveson’s recommendations in light of the cross-party agreements. A process is very much under way to consider the “PressBoF” charter, while making sure that the Government’s charter will be subject to full consideration at the appropriate time.

The Minister for Women and Equalities was asked—

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

1. What steps she is taking to maintain existing levels of girls’ participation in sport.

[The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Hugh Robertson)]

In a guest appearance—figures released last week show that 6.785 million women played sport once a week, an increase of more than half a million since we won the bid in 2005. Through Sport England, the Government have awarded £1.7 million to the Women’s Sport and Fitness Foundation to help sports understand which groups of women are most likely to take up sport, and where sport should focus effort to best advantage. Women’s participation in sport is one of the key priorities of my right hon. Friend the Minister for Women and Equalities.

[Simon Hughes]

Having visited the very good girls’ secondary schools and mixed secondary schools in my constituency, it seems that the crucial time to encourage young women to continue with sport and physical activity is the year leading up to 16, when they might leave school or think of other things. What are the Government doing to make sure that at that stage, they are sold the benefits of staying fit?

[Hugh Robertson]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely correct: the single biggest issue affecting gender-based participation in British sport in the last 20 years has been the post-school drop-out, which is most severe among teenage girls. The Government have sought to address that in the recent round of whole sport plans by concentrating on those in the 14-to-25 age group; by setting up 500 new satellite clubs, which will help to transition girls out of school and into sports clubs; and through the Sport England College Sport Makers, specialists in further education colleges who will help specifically with that drop-off.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

A total of 36% of the medals won by Team GB were won by women, but women’s sport gets just 0.5% of sports sponsorship. What action is the Minister taking to ensure that this unacceptable situation is adequately tackled?

[Hugh Robertson]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right to draw attention to the success of the many women who competed for Team GB last year. We tried to put in place a new sports marketing bureau, headed by Sir Keith Mills, responsible for drawing up the sponsorship for London 2012, but I am afraid that the sports en masse did not want to sign up to that and wished to continue to negotiate sponsorship agreements on their own. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport hosted the summit, bringing together people from the worlds of broadcasting and sport, and we are doing everything we can to address the crucial issue the hon. Lady raises.

[Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

A total of 81% of women feel that female sportspeople are much better role models than celebrities. What is my right hon. Friend doing to ensure that female sport is broadcast more widely so that those role models can get the exposure they deserve?

[Hugh Robertson]

Perhaps I should turn up more regularly to this section of questions; I am being asked more questions than I was during the sports section. My hon. Friend is absolutely right and a key part of the Secretary of State’s initiative was high-quality advice from female broadcasters about how better to package female sport to make it more attractive. I am delighted to say that I have noticed since 2012 that there is much more concentration on it. It is a key part of UK Sport’s plans for the Rio Olympic and Paralympic cycle and we will do everything we can to ensure that those fantastic role models are appropriately profiled.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

While the Leveson inquiry was perfectly justified in view of the scandalous behaviour of some of the press, is the Secretary of State aware that there is a good deal of concern not from the usual quarters but from the regional press, who were not involved in the scandals, from the New Statesman—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am always loth to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but at this stage we are talking about girls’ participation in sport.

[Mr Winnick]

I thought it was open questions.

[Mr Speaker]

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will find a way of getting his thoughts across on the matter in the course of the day.

[Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)]

2. What steps she is taking to increase the number of female entrepreneurs.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities (Jo Swinson)]

We commissioned the Women’s Business Council to investigate how we can maximise women’s contribution to economic growth as they have a vital role to play. In response to the council’s recent excellent report, the Government will publish an action plan this autumn. It will highlight how we will improve web-based support for entrepreneurs and work with the British Bankers Association to improve women’s awareness of the financial support available to women entrepreneurs.

[Catherine McKinnell]

I thank the Minister for that answer. The Prince’s Trust is doing sterling work to support young entrepreneurs in the north-east, such as Emma Reilly in my constituency who set up a web-based design business with its support. It is worrying, however, that the Government’s new enterprise allowance is reaching only 30% of women. What are the Government going to do to ensure that that help reaches women to help more female entrepreneurs come into the market?

[Jo Swinson]

First, the hon. Lady is right to highlight the excellent work done by the Prince’s Trust and I am delighted that it has been helping entrepreneurs in her constituency. It is important that we ensure that the schemes available to support growing businesses are available to women as well as men and are marketed in a way that attracts women as well as men to apply for them. There are some positive points, such as the start-up loans fund of more than £24 million that has already been approved. More than 40% has already gone to women, but the Government recognise that this is an issue where we can and will do more. We are considering that in our response to the Women’s Business Council report.

[Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)]

Next week I am taking a group of A-level maths students to visit British Airways Engineering, including a large number of female mathematicians. What is the Minister doing to broaden girls’ aspirations and career choices?

[Jo Swinson]

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. It is important that women and girls are encouraged to take subjects that can lead them into a lot of different careers, whether in entrepreneurship or through science, technology, engineering and maths. We are working with the bodies in the engineering and science industries to make those paths more attractive to women and to encourage them to consider them as positive career options. We are also working further with the Department for Education to follow up on the recommendations of the Women’s Business Council, particularly on careers guidance.

[Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)]

3. What steps she is taking to increase the number of women in senior positions in business.

[The Minister for Women and Equalities (Maria Miller)]

We support Lord Davies’s business-led approach to increasing the number of women on boards and our “Think, Act, Report” initiative encourages companies to report on gender equality in the workplace, promoting greater transparency. We have welcomed the recommendations of the Women’s Business Council in supporting women in achieving their potential in the workplace.

[Ian Swales]

I thank Minister for that answer. Jane Atkinson, a senior engineer at Sembcorp in my constituency, does everything she can to act as a role model and encourage girls to take up technical careers. Will the Minister ensure that more role models are identified to show that manufacturing and industry are good careers for girls?

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that, whether through mentoring or sponsoring, this is an important way of getting more women up the career ladder and into senior positions. However, we also need to make sure that they are considering non-typical choices in careers, and engineering is an important part of it. May I suggest that he looks at the Conservative Women’s Forum report that was published yesterday, which picks up on many of these issues and offers some practical ways of improving the current situation?

[Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)]

During the financial statement the Chancellor said that his Budget “confronts” our problems “head on”. However, a Treasury team of five men and no women produced a Budget that did not mention women in business once. With such poor gender diversity at the heart of Government, are we missing an opportunity to support female entrepreneurship and women in senior positions in business?

[Maria Miller]

I have to gently disagree with the hon. Gentleman. He will see that at the heart of what the Government are doing is ensuring that every person in this country can achieve their potential. The changes in the tax regime will support women, as will the increases in access to child care that we have already put in place. Actions very much speak loudly on this subject.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

4. What assessment she has made of the cumulative effect of Government policies on tackling violence against women.

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

The Government are fully committed to tackling violence against women and girls. We have ring-fenced nearly £40 million of funding up to 2015 for domestic and sexual abuse victims’ services. We monitor the impact of our activity through our annually published action plans, inter-ministerial meetings and regular engagement with the women’s sector.

[Kerry McCarthy]

But the End Violence Against Women Coalition’s recent “Deeds or Words?” report gave the Government a score of 2.5 out of 10 and the Department for Education a woeful zero—nul points—out of 10 for their efforts to tackle violence against women and girls. Have the Government made any assessment of why they got such a woeful score? What are they going to do to improve their score in future years?

[Mr Browne]

I am grateful for the opportunity to put the Government’s side of the argument, because we have a strong story to tell. We have introduced stronger laws on stalking; we are in the process of criminalising forced marriage, in legislation that I am leading at the moment; we have the highest conviction rates for rape since recording began; and the Home Office is running a very successful campaign—“This is abuse”—aimed at addressing teenage sexual behaviour. The Government have a strong record and I hope that we can persuade more people of that when they write reports in the future.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

What specific steps are the Government taking to deal with the disgraceful acts of “honour-based” violence offences?

[Mr Browne]

My hon. Friend is right to draw the House’s attention to this appalling practice. I know that he uses that term because it is the one that is widely used to describe this, but I am always a bit guarded about using it because there is nothing at all honourable about treating women in that way. I am sure that that message will go out from every Member of this House, and I hope it will be heard increasingly right across the country.

[Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)]

9. Only 6.5% of domestic violence incidents recorded by the police actually result in conviction. What kind of message does it send if an alleged perpetrator can receive a caution despite extensive corroborative evidence? Is that the norm? If it is, no wonder conviction rates are so low. Or is it a question of there being one law for the rich and famous and another for everybody else?

[Mr Browne]

There certainly is not one law for the rich and famous and another for everybody else, and if anybody is under the impression that there is, they are labouring under a misapprehension. I share the hon. Lady’s concern about domestic violence conviction rates, and we want to see them increase. Sometimes it is difficult to get a conviction in those circumstances, for reasons that will be obvious to everybody in the House. Domestic violence is an extremely serious crime, and although we have seen overall crime rates fall, we have not seen a marked fall in domestic violence rates. However, that is something we actually quite welcome because it may suggest a higher level of reporting of domestic violence than previously existed.

[Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)]

Women’s safety is being put at risk by Government reforms. According to Homeless Link, Ministers still have not sorted payments to refuges under universal credit, and it is now clear that sanctuary schemes are being put at risk. A woman who is a victim of domestic violence who has a specially installed panic room in her home has been told that she must pay an extra £12 because it counts as a spare bedroom under the bedroom tax. Another woman who is at serious risk from her abuser was moved by a multi-agency risk assessment conference into safe accommodation, but has now been told that she is under-occupying and will have to pay bedroom tax or move home again, when she is already feeling unsafe. It is no good the Minister passing the buck to local councils and chattering on about the discretionary housing payment, as his hon. Friends and colleagues have been trying to advise him. The fact is that such cases are happening across the country. Does he have any idea how many women are being affected in this way? Have Ministers even asked?

[Mr Browne]

I caution the right hon. Lady about scaremongering in that way and trying to use this extremely serious and harrowing issue to make a wider political point about the size of the welfare state, which after all is a part of Government policy on which Labour is in full retreat and is increasingly willing to accept Government policy. There are discretionary payments available to councils in the circumstances that she describes and I urge councils to make those payments available in the right circumstances.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

5. What progress she has made on ensuring equality for disabled people.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

Our disability strategy, Fulfilling Potential, has been developed with disabled people. Through that we are removing the barriers that prevent disabled people from taking a full part in society. Recent indicators show that disabled people are seeing improvements in key outcomes and reduced inequalities between them and non-disabled people. We will drive that progress further when we publish a full detailed plan next month.

[Barbara Keeley]

The Government have refused to do cumulative impact assessments on their welfare changes, but these were done recently by Demos and Scope for the report, “Destination Unknown”. They found that thousands of disabled people will be hit by four, five or six different cuts to their welfare benefits simultaneously. Does the Minister think the Government have their priorities right when disabled people will be hit by a loss of £28.3 billion of support, while millionaires are enjoying a tax cut?

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Lady raises this point time and again and I have answered it. We do equality assessments on every policy change. A key reform that we have brought in for public sector duty is to ensure that equality is embedded from concept to development to delivery, right the way through. Cumulative impact assessments are not taking place because we have taken advice that they could not give a proper measurement as these changes in policy are being introduced gradually and those would therefore be inaccurate assessments. But we are doing independent assessment throughout to ensure that we are getting these policy changes right.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

We already know that Government reforms are pushing tens of thousands more disabled people into poverty and 440,000 households which include a disabled person are being hit by the bedroom tax. Today’s figures from the Employment Related Services Association show that 94% of the largest group of employment and support allowance recipients joining the Work programme have not even been offered a job. Even the providers say that the Work programme cannot meet all the costs of getting a disabled person back to work, yet the Work programme is costing us billions, so can the Minister explain why it is not working for disabled people?

[Esther McVey]

I would like to correct the hon. Lady. These things are working. For the first time ever, we have looked to support disabled people and have them fulfilling their potential. I am sure the hon. Lady will be delighted to hear that for the first time ever we are putting in place an employment strategy for disabled people, bringing together businesses and disabled people to look at how they can fulfil their potential. So far from what the hon. Lady is saying, it would be better if she looked at the figures and got it right.

Business of the House

Thursday 20th June 2013 Commons Chamber

10:34

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House give us the business for next week?

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley)]

The business for next week is as follows:

Monday 24 June—Second Reading of the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, followed by debate on careers advice in schools for 12 to 16-year-olds. The subject for this debate was nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.

Tuesday 25 June—Opposition day (4th allotted day). There will be a debate on lobbying, followed by a debate on the armed forces. Both debates will arise on a motion in the name of the official Opposition.

Wednesday 26 June—I would like to remind the House that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will make a statement on the spending review, followed by Second Reading of the High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill, followed by motions relating to the hybrid Bill procedure.

Thursday 27 June—A general debate on legal aid reform, followed by a general debate on multi-national companies and UK corporation tax. The subjects for these debates have been nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.

The provisional business for the week commencing 1 July will include:

Monday 1 July—Remaining stages of the Finance (No. 2) Bill (day 1).

Tuesday 2 July—Conclusion of remaining stages of the Finance (No. 2) Bill (day 2).

Wednesday 3 July— Estimates day (1st allotted day). There will be a debate on public expenditure and health care services, followed by a debate on Rail 2020. Further details will be given in the Official Report.

The details are as follows: Debate on public expenditure and health care services. Debate on Rail 2020.

At 7 pm the House will be asked to agree all outstanding estimates, followed by a motion to approve a European document relating to reforming Europol.

Thursday 4 July—Proceedings on the Supply and Appropriation (Main Estimates) Bill, followed by business to be nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.

Friday 5 July—Private Members’ Bills.



I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 27 June will be:

Thursday 27 June—A debate on the First Report of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, “An air transport strategy for Northern Ireland”.

[Ms Eagle]

I thank the Leader of the House for announcing next week’s business.

We are witnessing a continuing deterioration of the situation in Syria: the latest estimates are that 93,000 people have been killed, and there is a rapidly escalating humanitarian crisis on the border as millions flee. Will the Leader of the House undertake to keep the House informed of the Government’s intentions? Can he tell us now how he intends to ensure that the voice of this House is heard ahead of any change in Government policy?

I note that the High Speed 2 preparation Bill will be before the House next Wednesday, but there is still no sign of the Second Reading of the hybrid Bill, which is also necessary if HS2 is to proceed. The Government promised that that Bill would have Royal Assent by the end of this Parliament, but we all know that hybrid Bills take a very long time to get through Parliament. Is the Leader of the House convinced that there is enough time left for the Government to fulfil their promise? Can he guarantee that Second Reading of the hybrid Bill will take place in this Session?

Under this Government, top bankers have had a double bonanza, as figures from the Office for National Statistics show a 64% increase in bonuses, timed to coincide with the Government’s huge tax cut for millionaires. Is that because, as the figures show, half of all Tory party funding comes from the City?

Last night, the Chancellor made his speech at the Mansion House in the aftermath of the final report of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, but he has had nothing to say to this House. When can we expect a statement on that from the Government? Perhaps the Chancellor is too embarrassed to turn up, as we learned that President Obama called him “Jeffrey” three times at the G8. There are plenty of names I could think of to call this Chancellor, but “Jeffrey” is not one of them.

Yesterday, the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) presented his Bill on an EU referendum to the House. I am afraid that the Bill is turning into a bit of a farce: last week, even the Leader of the House could not keep a straight face when trying to argue that the hon. Gentleman was running his own Bill, and this week the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary had to be advised that they could not sign a private Member’s Bill without it turning into a Government Bill. Has no one told the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary that if they really want to sponsor a private Member’s Bill, they can easily do so—from the Back Benches?

May I take this opportunity to congratulate all those who featured in the Queen’s birthday honours earlier this week? Of course, the Leader of the House is a previous recipient, so he knows all about the thrill of being recognised by Her Majesty, but does he agree that the Government’s strategy of giving people gongs to keep them quiet is adding to the Queen’s work load with little obvious effect? On the day after his knighthood was announced, the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) showed his gratitude on the Conservative Home website by describing his own Government’s legislative programme as

“the weakest…in recent memory”

Does the Leader of the House agree with him?

The recent birthday honours also brought good news for the right hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Sir Andrew Stunell), who was knighted, and the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell), who joined the Order of the Companions of Honour. I congratulate them both. Some 14% of Liberal Democrat Members have now been knighted, which means that there are more knights on the Liberal Democrat Benches than there are women. Does the Leader of the House agree that at least in this important respect the Liberal Democrats are punching well above their weight in this Government? Any more of this and the Liberal Democrat Whips Office will be scouring eBay for a round table.

With all the disunity in the Government, it is reassuring to see that the Leader of the House and his deputy are working together, shoulder to shoulder, as a great team—at least, that is what I thought until the leaflet I am holding came to my attention. It was delivered this weekend through a door in the constituency of the Deputy Leader of the House, the right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake). In it, he campaigns passionately to save a hospital that his own Government are closing. He says:

“I am calling upon the Secretary of State for Health Andrew Lansley to meet urgently with me and local councillors to discuss the fate of our hospital.”

That tells us he does not seem to know what job his boss does, he apparently cannot get a meeting with him, and he does not seem able to defend his own Government’s actions to his constituents. Mr Speaker, I feel a knighthood coming on.

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House for her response to the business statement and to the Opposition, in particular, for equipping me to announce the business for the Supply day next Tuesday. I join her in paying tribute to all those recognised in the birthday honours list. I congratulate, on behalf of the House, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell), my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (Sir Andrew Stunell) on their awards. I would also like to congratulate Elizabeth Gardiner, from parliamentary counsel, and Roland Hunt, head of parliamentary support in the Opposition Whips Office, and I think that the House will be particular pleased to learn that Robin Fell, Principal Doorkeeper of the House, was made an Officer of the Order of the British Empire.

Honours are of course very appropriate for our Liberal Democrat colleagues in the coalition, and much deserved, so we are delighted to have seen them. I am nervous about the reference the shadow Leader of the House made to the benefit of the Liberal Democrat knights sitting at a round table. In this morning’s newspapers it was noted how good a round table is in enabling consensus to emerge in office meetings. The trouble is that the only round table I know that could accommodate all the Liberal Democrat knights is the one in my office, so do not tell the Deputy Prime Minister or there might be a furniture raid.

The shadow Leader of the House talked about the literature in south-west London—[Interruption.] Yes, it was this week. As she will be aware, and as the Deputy Leader of the House has advised me, that is a manifestation of the Liberal Democrats’ green policies; they do not waste paper. One should not waste a good leaflet.

On Syria, the shadow Leader of the House will have heard what the Prime Minister said yesterday, and the Foreign Secretary and other Foreign Office Ministers have kept the House fully informed. I think that I have been clear about this at business questions before, but for the avoidance of any doubt I will say it again: no decision has been made within Government for us to arm the Syrian National Coalition. Were any such decision to be made we would not implement it unless and until it secured the support of this House on a substantive motion. I believe that that meets the concern of colleagues. In addition, the Prime Minister yesterday accurately reflected on the simple fact that where national security interests are engaged it must be correct that the Government reserve the right to take any necessary action in defence of our security. I emphasise, however, that this in no sense qualifies the commitment I have given to the House on the question of arms and Syria.

The shadow Leader of the House asked about HS2. Her points will be addressed in the debate on the High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill, which will no doubt give an opportunity to look toward the introduction of the HS2 hybrid Bill. The pace at which the hybrid Bill will be able to progress will be debated next Wednesday in a number of motions relating to its procedure. It might benefit the House to know that the motions have now been tabled and are available, along with an explanatory memorandum, from the Vote Office.

The hon. Lady asked about banking, in particular the banking Bill. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was clear at the Mansion House last night that the Government welcome the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. Indeed, I think we can all say now that it demonstrates what a good decision it was to proceed with a parliamentary commission. If we had gone down the line of a public inquiry, I suspect that evidence would still be being taken rather than measures being implemented. The Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill is before the House and the Chancellor has made it clear that, where measures require legislation, we will seek to introduce them during the consideration of the Bill. I have not yet had the opportunity to announce the remaining stages of that Bill in this House.

I have seen press reports about the Chancellor being referred to as Jeffrey. I heard this morning that there was a bit of a debate about who was cool at the G8 summit. Jeffrey Osborne would have been cool—that is for sure. From the Chancellor’s point of view, it is probably just as well that the President of the United States did not refer to him as Ozzy, which would have been worse.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

It’s better than Gideon, though, isn’t it?

[Mr Lansley]

I will just settle for George, if that is all right.

On the European Union (Referendum) Bill, I have announced that private Members’ Bills will be considered on Friday 5 July and I know that my colleagues are all looking forward to supporting my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton).

I do not think that the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) asked any further questions, but I want to say one more thing. She and her colleagues have scheduled a debate on lobbying next week and I want to emphasise that the Government are committed to enhancing the transparency of political life. This Government are the most transparent ever, proactively publishing details of ministerial meetings, Government procurement and other items of public interest. I am looking forward to next Tuesday’s debate, because it will be an opportunity to make very clear that we are proceeding with the coalition programme, as we always said we would, whereas the Labour party, over 13 years, never took a step. In fact, it put the issue in the “too hot to handle” basket. We as a Government are making it clear that we are going to do it and have said so time and again. It is curious that an Opposition motion is asking for a Bill to be introduced when we have said that we will introduce such a Bill before the summer recess.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

May we have a debate on the protocols that should apply to the information given to Members of Parliament if failings are found in NHS or care home facilities in their constituencies? It is not just the Care Quality Commission but other organisations, such as Monitor and, indeed, the royal colleges that investigate concerns about safety in the NHS. The Royal College of Surgeons recently undertook an inquiry into surgery at Horton general hospital in my constituency. The report exists and is being talked about, but it has not been published. In such circumstances, there should be, post-Francis, a clear understanding of what information is provided to MPs if failings are found in the NHS or social care in their own constituencies.

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend will know that, under this coalition Government, there has never been as much clarity in terms of the standards that the NHS is setting out to meet. They are expressed in the NHS clinical standards and the measurement of outcomes. As my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary said yesterday, rightly, that emphasis on the publication of data in order to inform patients and the public and to hold everybody in the NHS better to account is critical.

My hon. Friend asks what Members of Parliament should do. I hope that in any case all Members of Parliament would, in the first instance, be alongside the providers of health care in their constituencies, because the first responsibility for delivering standards lies with the management of the health care providers. Alongside that, the new clinical commissioning groups and NHS England have a responsibility. I think that Members of Parliament will find it extremely helpful to have a continuing dialogue with their clinical commissioning groups, which have a responsibility for delivering high-quality care to the patients for whom they commission services. They are supported by NHS England, where we have mainstreamed the patient safety responsibilities of the former National Patient Safety Agency.

When those measures fail to deliver satisfactory responses in the view of a Member of Parliament, the Member can and should go to the Care Quality Commission. The CQC would then have a responsibility to investigate and secure action to ensure that essential standards are met and that those who are responsible for failures are held to account.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

The Leader of the House has announced that the statement on the comprehensive spending review will be on Wednesday. I understand that it is his intention not to schedule a debate on the comprehensive spending review, but to point anybody who wants such a debate in the direction of the Backbench Business Committee. Before he reaches for the Wright Committee report and reads the small section about the comprehensive spending review being under the auspices of the Backbench Business Committee, I should point out that I think all Members would agree with me when I say that if the comprehensive spending review is not Government business, I do not know what is. The Backbench Business Committee would be delighted to schedule the Government’s business, but if that is his intention will he at least allocate an extra day to the Committee so that we may have such a debate? If not, will he schedule it in Government time?

[Mr Lansley]

I am sure that the hon. Lady recognises that many of the subjects that the Wright Committee said the Backbench Business Committee should determine the priority of and allocate time to are the responsibility of Government. Paragraph 139 of the Wright Committee report made it perfectly clear that debates on the spending review are precisely the sort of debates that it should be up to the House to decide whether to schedule. As it happens, in the provisional business that I have announced for the week beginning 1 July, the House will debate the Finance Bill and there will be an estimates day, which will include debates relating to the departmental estimates for Health and Transport.

[Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)]

Estate agents in Portsmouth are required to display energy efficiency information on property advertisements. Not only did the Cabinet Office give them little time to do that, but it does not give those details on advertisements for Government property that is for sale or to let and it seems confused about whether a sales listing is an offer to sell or lease. That chaos and confusion rather undermines the unhelpful answer that I received from the Department for Communities and Local Government, which states that “advertisement” is

“an ordinary English word which does not require further clarification.”—[Official Report, 4 March 2013; Vol. 563, c. 779W.]

Will the Leader of the House find time to consider those matters given that, since December, the performance of neither Department has been energetic or efficient?

[Mr Lansley]

I will, of course, take up the points that my hon. Friend raises with the Cabinet Office and the Department for Communities and Local Government. The Government are engaged in an ambitious programme of selling surplus public sector land and assets, not least in order to secure the building of 10,000 homes on that land. When we are selling properties, we must try to set an example by securing energy efficiency in those properties and advertising that fact.

[John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)]

If the Government are struggling to produce a lobbying Bill, which they clearly are, they can have my Bill. It was produced two years ago and could be printed before the debate next Tuesday. It would certainly be far superior to any drivel that the Deputy Prime Minister might come up with.

[Mr Lansley]

The Government are not struggling to produce a Bill; we have set out the timetable and will introduce a Bill before the summer recess. The clauses for a Bill were published previously and were the subject of a consultation last year. In that context, it is a bit rich of the Labour party to talk about wanting cross-party talks on the issue, when no Labour MP, including those on the Opposition Front Bench, supplied any response to the Government consultation on the clauses that we published.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

Some 99% of all UK limited companies have beneficial owners who are exactly the same as the legal shareholders disclosed on the Companies House website, and many people—including the Prime Minister and Will Morris, the head of tax at CBI—have expressed their preference for putting company beneficial ownership into the public domain, because the “many eyes” principle keeps data honest. Will the Leader of the House agree to a debate on the impact of an open, public register of company beneficial share ownership on UK businesses, and agree that that would not be onerous?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. She will recall that in response to questions following his statement on the Lough Erne declaration yesterday, the Prime Minister made clear his wish to see that register of beneficial ownership completed, published and made publicly available, not only in this country but in a number of countries. That multilateral, international approach extends not only to the G8 but beyond to developing countries, and, as the Prime Minister said, it was recognised as important by a number of Heads of Government of African nations who attended the lunch on Tuesday. Such an approach can make a big difference to rooting out corruption and promoting economic development in developing countries.

[Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)]

In March, the Government made the welcome announcement that they intend to publish a Green Paper on graduated licensing for young drivers, to address the dreadful toll of young people being killed or seriously injured on our roads. Will the Leader of the House advise whether we are likely to see that Green Paper before the summer recess, and, if not, when we might expect a statement?

[Mr Lansley]

I cannot give the hon. Gentleman a date. Transport questions are next Thursday—I will perhaps alert my hon. Friends in that Department, although they will know of his interest. Forgive me if I am wrong, but my recollection is that the private Members’ Bills published yesterday included one by an hon. Member—the name, I fear, escapes me—who was introducing a Bill to deal precisely with the point raised by the hon. Gentleman.

[Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that we should have a debate on the amount of medical negligence payments being made by the NHS, particularly following the tragic cases in Barking, Havering and Redbridge Trust, which serves my Ilford North constituency?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend raises a point that many Members will recognise as important. We want to minimise cases of clinical negligence that give rise to compensation, and that is the first priority. I said earlier that patient safety being mainstreamed in NHS England is terrifically important, but unfortunately the volume of payments through the NHS Litigation Authority is now roughly £1 billion a year, and there is a massive contingent liability. We cannot expect that to disappear and it is important to have compensation where people have suffered harm as a consequence of accessing NHS treatment, but we must ensure that that is done cost-effectively. I know all Members—including Government Members—feel strongly that we have arrived at a position where negligence payments to expert witnesses and lawyers are sometimes as great as the compensation paid to families, and we want to bear down on that very hard.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

In the light of comments reported this morning that the Deputy Prime Minister described the Nigella Lawson incident of domestic violence as “fleeting”, even though we know the perpetrator has accepted a caution for assault, may we please have a debate on how seriously the Government take the issue of domestic violence?

[Mr Lansley]

I am sure that the hon. Lady will have heard the Minister of State, Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), responding to questions earlier. The Government are committed to doing everything we can to prevent domestic violence and provide support to victims, which is why the Home Office produced the violence against women and girls action plan, including a ring-fenced budget of nearly £40 million. Also, multi-agency risk assessment centres are operating in more than 250 areas across the country. It is serious, we take it seriously and we are acting in a substantial way.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

Has my right hon. Friend seen my early-day motion 282 on the extension of free school meals to young people attending further education colleges?

[That this House notes that young people attending further education colleges do not receive free school meals despite being eligible for them; further notes that the Association of Colleges has found that 79 per cent of colleges believe that free school meals for 16 to 18 years olds would encourage them to stay on in education; further notes that young people who attend sixth form and are eligible for free school meals do receive them; and therefore urges the Government to look at what can be done to treat sixth formers and college students equally and support these young people to continue in education.]

Harlow college in my constituency estimates that 350 young people are in severe need of free school meals, and not receiving them puts their education at risk, yet children who go to sixth-form schools get free school meals. Will my right hon. Friend lobby the Chancellor to include it in the spending round next week?

[Mr Lansley]

I understand my hon. Friend’s point, not least because FE colleges in my constituency and adjoining it have raised exactly that point with me too. It is, of course, a matter of available resources, but even before the spending review, if he were to catch your eye, Mr Speaker, he might have an opportunity to raise the matter with Education Ministers at Question Time on Monday.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Leader of the House will agree that the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards has produced rather a good report, but it leads us to conclude that there is unfinished business over what went wrong with our banking sector. May we have an early debate on the really sad state of the accountancy profession and the auditing process in this country? It is high time we got to the heart of the matter.

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Gentleman is right about the commission: it has produced an important and welcome report. He might like to raise these issues at Treasury questions on Tuesday, if he has an opportunity, but notwithstanding that, as I said, I have not yet been able to announce the timing for consideration of the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill, which touches on these issues. I would add—this touches on accountancy and other professions related to financial services—that the commission has established, and the Government agree absolutely, that there is no competition between high standards in financial services and global competitiveness. The appalling events of 2008 and their aftermath, including their impact worldwide, demonstrate that global competitiveness, including the trust, credibility and competitiveness of major financial centres, depends on setting and maintaining high banking and financial services standards.

[Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)]

Housing is one of the issues most frequently raised at my surgeries, whether it be access to social housing or simply getting on the property ladder. It has been estimated that in the UK there are 920,000 empty homes, of which 330,000 are long-term empty. Please may we have a debate to explore what can be done between local and national Government to bring these homes back into use and so provide more homes and reduce the pressure to build on our green fields?

[Mr Lansley]

I think that many Members will recognise the issue that my hon. Friend describes in his constituency. He will recall the changes in council tax treatment relating to empty homes, which, difficult as it might be in some cases, creates an additional substantial disincentive to leave homes empty, which is important. We want them occupied. In addition, the Government are on track to deliver 170,000 more affordable homes by March 2015. It is an investment programme of nearly £20 billion. Furthermore, of course, by supporting the wider house building programme, not least with schemes like Help to Buy, we are beginning to see the steps needed to get the people who need housing into good-quality new housing.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

Yesterday King Abdullah of Jordan told Members at a meeting that Jordan was ready to accept Abu Qatada back. As the Leader of the House knows, the total cost to the taxpayer of Abu Qatada’s legal fees is now £1.7 million. Tomorrow the House will automatically ratify the treaty with Jordan, which Jordan has already ratified. May we have a statement from the Home Secretary on the likely timetable for the return of Abu Qatada to Jordan?

[Mr Lansley]

The right hon. Gentleman understands these matters well and knows that the ratification in Jordan is a positive step forward. As he said, the House will ratify the treaty, but that does not preclude opportunities for appeal on behalf of Mr Qatada. I cannot offer a statement at the moment, but the Home Secretary has kept the House fully informed and I am sure she will continue to do so.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Diolch. Sianel Pedwar Cymru, or S4C, is hugely important to the cultural life of Wales and underpins the success of the Welsh language. Broadcasting is not a devolved matter; it is the responsibility of this House. Will my right hon. Friend ensure that we have a debate at an early opportunity on the value of S4C and its contribution to the future of the Welsh language?

[Mr Lansley]

I am familiar with some programmes. Pobol y Cwm is my favourite programme on S4C, because it is filmed in Menai Bridge, which I know well. My hon. Friend is right about the importance of S4C and it is good for the House to have opportunities from time to time to examine and reiterate that, but the best thing would probably be for him to secure the support of other Members from Wales and make an approach to the Backbench Business Committee.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

The Leader of the House will know that a review of the Wright reforms is currently going through parliamentary Committees. The reforms have been an utter disaster for the smaller parties, leaving the proceedings of the House almost exclusively in the hands of the Government and the Labour Opposition. Will he support having a place for a Member from the minority parties on the Backbench Business Committee and on the proposed House business committee?

[Mr Lansley]

I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman feels that way. The intention of the Government, and I think of the major parties in this House, has been to ensure that there is access for smaller parties. In particular, arrangements have been made for smaller parties to attend the Backbench Business Committee, even if they are not able to vote. I remind the hon. Gentleman and the House that I went recently to the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, which is undertaking an inquiry into the Wright Committee reforms. I made it clear that at this stage I have no proposals to introduce a House business committee, but I await the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee’s report. If the hon. Gentleman has any points to raise, he should be making them to the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee.

[Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)]

May we have a debate on the protection of our green belt, and in particular on the important role it plays in protecting the character and setting of our historic cities, such as York in my constituency where more than 2,000 acres of green-belt land is under threat from the council’s draft local plan?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. I know he will have sympathy with other colleagues who have historic cities in a countryside setting in their constituency. That was precisely the description applied to Cambridge when its structure plan was agreed some 10 years ago. The essence of the Government’s localism policy is to give more opportunities for local communities to establish the framework for local planning and development. The Government have given that power to York city council, which is not under the control of our party, and I hope that my hon. Friend is successful in ensuring that it listens to the views of the people he represents.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

Following the statement yesterday on the hospital and Care Quality Commission scandal, is it not time that we had a full debate, in Government time, on the purpose, intention and scope of the Data Protection Act 1998, so that Parliament is able to make its position crystal clear and stop lawyers’ organisations and petty officials using the Act to hide information, to protect wrongdoers, and to cover up their own incompetence, as seems to happen all too regularly at present?

[Mr Lansley]

I cannot offer the hon. Gentleman a debate at this moment. I heard the Information Commissioner talking about this on the radio this morning. One of the most important things is for there to be clarity in the minds of those in organisations, and those who advise them, on what the 1998 Act requires and what it does not require. As the hon. Gentleman may have heard in the exchanges after the statement yesterday, there are clear exemptions under the Act relating to the public interest.

[Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

Further to the concerns I raised on the Public Accounts Committee 18 months ago about whether Care Quality Commission inspectors had the clinical experience to understand the industry they were inspecting, and given that the comments on the radio yesterday by the new chair suggest that that is still the case, may we have a debate on the Care Quality Commission and, in particular, the way in which senior officials have escaped accountability, including some who chaired that body and now sit in the other place?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend has examined the work of the Care Quality Commission carefully and critically through his work on the Public Accounts Committee. What is clear from what we saw yesterday, as well as the report produced by Grant Thornton, is that decisions were made—in fact, under the last Government—relating to the generalist character of inspection and the disbandment of the specialist investigations team, which is one of a number of a things that, on reflection, contributed to a very poor regulatory performance at that time. The CQC has new management, new chief inspectors and a lot of opportunities. I hope we will have an opportunity at some point for a debate that not only looks at the causes of that regulatory failure in the past, but gives an opportunity to the CQC to demonstrate how it can be a changed organisation.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

The national planning policy framework states that it is inappropriate to build on the green belt, yet a ministerial statement last September said that local plans would be fast-tracked if they included the green belt. My constituents want to know whether the green belt is safe, so may we have an urgent debate on Government guidance to local decision makers on this conflicting policy?

[Mr Lansley]

It is not a conflicting policy at all. As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for York Outer (Julian Sturdy), this comes down to decisions made locally by local people and the local authorities that represent them. If they attach the importance and sense of permanence to the green belt that is required—as I think they should—that is fine. However, if I may revert to my own constituency, the decision from 10 years ago—made locally, before the last Government introduced overriding planning guidance—did in fact give up some green belt, although it was regarded as poor quality green belt that did not contribute to the protection of Cambridge as a city. Houses are being built on what was previously green-belt land, but we feel strongly, as my hon. Friend and others do, about the green belt that contributes clearly and directly to the environmental quality of the cities and towns we live in.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

Given that around 20 to 30 Anglican churches are closed for regular worship every year, may we have an urgent debate on how we can work with local dioceses to keep churches open? They include St Barnabas church in my constituency, which has been threatened with closure after being at the heart of the community for more than 120 years.

[Mr Lansley]

I am sure the House recognises that my hon. Friend makes an important point for many communities where churches have been so important for so long. If I may, I will direct my hon. Friend to questions to my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry), representing the Church Commissioners, on Thursday 4 July. His point would be most appropriately responded to then, and he has taken this opportunity to give our hon. Friend notice.

[Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)]

May we have a debate about the way in which we decide when and where high-risk defendants are put on trial? Last week Dale Cregan was sentenced to full life imprisonment for the murders of Police Constables Fiona Bone and Nicola Hughes in my constituency. I am sure that Members from all parts of the House will join me in welcoming the news that he will never leave prison as long as he lives. However, the cost of ferrying this man and his co-defendants on a 70-mile round trip up the M6 to Preston every day for four months was more than £5 million, with real risks attached to the public. Greater Manchester police and Police and Crime Commissioner Tony Lloyd asked the Government to reclassify Preston jail as a high-security prison, but this was refused and the alternative option of holding the trial at the Old Bailey was not taken up either. Is there not a better way to minimise both the cost to the public and the police and the risks to the public than transporting very dangerous criminals in that way?

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I do not know all the circumstances relating to the case, or the considerations that led to those decisions being made. If I may, I will raise the matter with the prisons Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright), and ask him to respond.

[Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con)]

Brighton and Hove are awash with uncollected rubbish and litter because of the inability of the Green council and the unions to reach agreement. Tourism, public health and residents are all being put at risk. May we please have a debate on this important issue?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. The irony will not be lost on his constituents that, although they have a Green council, the quality of their environment is being undermined by these actions. I know that my hon. Friend is doing everything he can to ensure that the issues are resolved, but it is important that the trade unions do not put the interests of the public at risk through the steps they are taking, and that the council steps up to its responsibilities. If he can bring the two together, I am sure that his constituents will be grateful to him.

[Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)]

On Sunday, I was delighted to join a Rossendale and Pendle mountain rescue team exercise on Pendle Hill. Local mountain rescue organisations across the UK are an invaluable life-saving emergency service, run entirely by volunteers and funded by charitable donations. May we have a debate on mountain rescue in the UK and on what Members across the House can do to support local groups?

[Mr Lansley]

I very much agree with my hon. Friend about the importance and value of the service provided by mountain rescue teams. They are central to the emergency response in their areas and work routinely with the emergency services in exercises. They are also integral to the work of local resilience forums, and it is not least for that reason that the Government provide financial support to the three mountain rescue organisations, including £128,000 to Mountain Rescue England and Wales over the four years to 2014-15. I cannot promise a debate, but it may be appropriate for my hon. Friend and other colleagues with a constituency interest in the matter to approach the Backbench Business Committee. None the less, I am sure that the mountain rescue organisations will be grateful for his and other Members’ interest and support.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

With just over a year to go, may we have a debate to celebrate the fact that Yorkshire councils and the UK Government have finally reached a conclusion on how best to make the Tour de France 2014 the best ever? As a Yorkshire MP, may I thank the Government for the £10 million commitment and £21 million underwrite that they are giving? Will the Leader of the House also confirm that he is dusting off the yellow Lycra outfit in his wardrobe?

[Mr Lansley]

I will be happy to be a spectator at the Tour de France, although I confess that that might not be in Yorkshire but in my own constituency when the tour comes through there afterwards. I shall not be cycling myself, but I shall be glad to be there cheering.

Points of Order

Thursday 20th June 2013 Commons Chamber

11:17

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker—

[Mr Speaker]

I hope that this is a genuine point of order and not a means of delay. There is no need to delay. I know that the Front Benchers are not here yet—or at least half of them are not—but that does not matter. We can get on perfectly well without them. However, if the hon. Gentleman wants to raise his point of order and test his vocal chords, I shall not decline him the opportunity.

[Thomas Docherty]

Further to the point made by the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), about how next week’s statement should be labelled, could you possibly ask the Leader of the House to ensure that there is no loss of the time available to Back Benchers as a result of this oversight by the Government?

[Mr Speaker]

I am not sure that any detriment is set to be suffered by the House, but I come to this matter slightly unsighted. The brow of the Leader of the House is furrowed, which suggests that he is as perplexed by the hon. Gentleman’s point of order as I am. It might be that there is a point of immense sophistication wrapped up in the enigma of the hon. Gentleman’s point of order, but thus far it has escaped me. We will leave it there for the time being. If there are no further points of order, either genuine or bogus, we can now move on—

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would like to seek your guidance on a letter that the Leader of the House sent to me last night in relation to an answer that he gave me in the House last week. I would like to bring it to the attention of the House, and perhaps I could have your guidance on this. I forwarded a copy of the letter to you this morning. It was about a response to a question on legal aid.

[Mr Speaker]

I am bound to say that that does not sound like a point of order. [Interruption.] The Leader of the House will probably know the contents of the letter of which I have not yet had sight. It may have been sent to me, but I have not yet seen it.

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley)]

Further to that point of order, I am grateful for the opportunity to offer a clarification. As the hon. Lady knows, at last week’s business questions, she asked me whether Justice Ministers had met the Criminal Bar Association. I recalled the occasion; I was sitting on the Bench with Justice Ministers on 21 May and I heard them respond to questions, listing the stakeholders that they met. I confess that I mistakenly thought that the Criminal Bar Association was in that long list of stakeholders, but it was not. That was on 21 May, as I say, but my noble Friend Lord McNally met the Criminal Bar Association on 30 May.

[Mr Speaker]

Well, whether that answer spawns general contentment I do not know, but it does seem to me to deal with the matter for the time being. I will of course cast my eye over the letter from the hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) as soon as I have the opportunity, but I do not think it need detain us from moving on to debate the important issue of provision for carers, which is the first of this afternoon’s debates selected by the Backbench Business Committee.

Backbench Business

Thursday 20th June 2013 Commons Chamber

Carers

Thursday 20th June 2013 Commons Chamber

23:20

[Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the matter of carers.

I start by thanking the Backbench Business Committee for choosing this as the first debate of this parliamentary Session since the re-establishment of that Committee. I very much appreciate the fact that within the space of a few days after the celebration of national carers week, the Backbench Business Committee was able to grant us this time to examine how better to support carers in this country and to recognise the extraordinary contribution that each and every carer makes to their families and our society. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) and the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) for their support for this application and for the contributions that I look forward to hearing from them later in the debate.

As I said, last week was national carers week. With over 10,000 events up and down the country—I am sure that many hon. Members will have had the opportunity to participate in them in their constituency—this was the biggest carers week so far. Here in Westminster, MPs were invited to a variety of events, including a speed dating event with carers with a wide range of life experiences. I had the opportunity to meet, among others, a woman called Karen whose husband has Parkinson’s. She told me about her experience of being a carer for someone with that particular condition and about the isolation she felt, having taken on that caring role. She conveyed a sense of being increasingly excluded from participating in many aspects of society. I met other carers involved with Marie Curie, who told me how, because of the nature of the diagnosis and the rapid progression of the cancers in question, they experienced additional strains and burdens in trying to get the right support at the right time for their loved ones. The week concluded with a lively carers question time event, in which the Minister and a range of experts participated.

This year’s theme was “Prepared to Care?” It highlighted the fact that people who take on caring roles are often not prepared for the physical and emotional impact of caring, nor for its impact on their lives in other ways, not least financially. In that sense, it is worth stressing that this is not a “them and us” issue. It is easy to think about this as something that is going to happen to other people, whereas the figures clearly show that three out of five of us will be a carer at some point in our lives. It will touch all of us, either through personal experience or through our family’s experiences.

I want to pay particular tribute to the carers I have met over the years in my constituency during my time as a Member of Parliament. I want to thank the Sutton Carers Centre for being a lifeline for thousands of carers—young and old alike. The carers centre in Sutton has been my guide and teacher on carer issues over the past 15 years. Whether through shadowing carers to learn directly from them or meeting carers at the centre, I have found that the things they want—the things they tell me they want—are not impossible or unreasonable. They do not want to feel that everything is a constant battle—a battle to get a diagnosis, a battle to get an assessment, a battle to get support, a battle to get a break, or, indeed, a battle to navigate around the system.

Over the years, I have met and listened to many carers in my constituency and I have met carers for whom the lifeline that keeps them sane and keeps them connected is not the formal social care support, nor even the carer centre. It may be, for instance, the local bowling club, as I learned from one of the carers whom I shadowed. The determination of the club’s members to support a friend was the most important thing in that person’s life. Not enough is made of such informal, often fragile networks of support, although they often represent the vital difference between just surviving and having a life.

There is clear evidence that the caring role takes its toll on people, physically, emotionally and financially. Six out of 10 carers report experiencing depression because of their caring role, and, as I have said, caring can be a lonely business: three out of five carers say that they have experienced difficulties in maintaining relationships with friends. Another problem is the desire of many carers to stay in the workplace so that they can remain connected through their work. More than 3 million are trying to balance their caring responsibilities with paid work, often at the expense of working hours or their career prospects.

Last June I hosted a carers summit with the forum Employers for Carers, led by BT. The aim was to explore opportunities to help carers to remain in the workplace. BT and other members of the forum, such as British Gas, have a good track record in that regard. They invest in their staff and want to retain them, so identifying and supporting carers seems logical to them. The cost to the bottom line of a business of replacing a member of staff can be huge, and one of the purposes of the summit was to enable more employers to see the business case for carer-friendly employment practices. The Government subsequently established a “task and finish” group to consider ways of creating an environment in which people could balance their caring responsibilities with their careers. That work is vital.

According to a recent survey conducted by YouGov for Carers UK, an estimated 2.3 million people have given up work at some point to care for an older or disabled loved one. One in four gave up work or reduced their working hours because the cost of replacement care was too high, and a similar number reported that services were not flexible enough to meet their needs. The impact of being forced to give up work to care for a loved one on an individual’s finances alone is clear, but the London School of Economics has estimated that the hidden cost to the economy—in benefits and lost tax revenues—is a staggering £1.3 billion a year, every year. When lost earnings are taken into account, the figure can rise to as much as £5.3 billion. That is not a cost that the United Kingdom can continue to bear as a consequence of a failure to act and provide the safeguards, supports and systems that would enable carers to remain in employment.

There is an urgent need to us to reframe the debate. We must stop focusing on the burden on the economy, and see caring as an asset and an opportunity. We must begin to view it in the way we view child care support and services. Carers must be entitled to more flexibility at work, although the Government have done much in that regard. Given the scale of demographic change—the over-85s are now the fastest-growing section of the population, and their number is set to double by 2030—and the growing proportion of “sandwich workers” who are attempting to juggle paid work with the demands of caring for both children and older relatives, the provision of flexibility is becoming an imperative. The Government must also think about how the market for low-level support services such as cleaning, shopping, gardening and befriending can be increased and, crucially, brought into the formal labour market.

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on securing the debate, which is timely given some of the things that have been happening in old people’s homes. Does he agree that there is a case for asking employers to help people who have to care for a family member? Such people are often under stress, and if they have to give up their jobs, their standard of living will fall as well.

[Paul Burstow]

That is a key point, and one that I want to put to the Government very strongly. Carers can only be helped to remain in the work force and balance their working lives with their caring responsibilities if the right substitute care and flexibility are available, and if employers have the right attitudes in the first place.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Paul Burstow]

I will take one more intervention, but I must not take too many more, because I have only 15 minutes in which to speak.

[Kate Green]

Could not public sector employers be exemplars in this respect? Can the right hon. Gentleman suggest any ways in which such good practice could be spread throughout the public sector?

[Paul Burstow]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right to say public sector employers should be—and could be, and must be—exemplars in this. Indeed, it would be great if the NHS itself was an exemplar in this area, yet as I will come on to say, I think in too many ways institutionally the NHS is rather biased against carers, and certainly blind to their needs in too many cases.

There is an economic reason why we need to do more in this area. It is estimated that as many as 50% of those involved in personal and household services operate in the grey economy. This represents a further missed opportunity in terms of job creation and lost revenue to the Exchequer. Looking across the channel to France where work began almost a decade ago to address a number of these issues, market development for homecare services has led to the creation of an additional 2 million jobs, with the industry becoming one of the biggest growth sectors in that economy.

There are clearly lessons to be learnt in how to support and strengthen carers’ ability to care in a way that supports the wider UK economy. I hope the Minister will be able to tell us when the “task and finish group” recommendations will be published.

Moving on, one of the most practical ways to support carers is to provide them with breaks from caring. That can help reduce the stress and the often constant demands that caring involves, and allow them to have the time to improve their own physical and mental health.

In recognition of the value of carers breaks, the Government committed in the 2010 spending review to spend £400 million over four years on breaks for carers living in England. As the Minister at the time, I was convinced of the importance of giving carers a break and knew that it would make a huge difference to their lives. I therefore regret that the evidence suggests that that has not happened. Monitoring by the Carers Trust for the year 2011-12 found that action on the ground had often been slow or non-existent. Despite clear reporting requirements, in many areas it was impossible to track how money had been spent, and in a small minority of cases nothing at all had been spent on services for carers. Some fantastic work has been done, but progress has remained appallingly slow. To be fair, this problem has dogged not just the coalition Government, but successive Governments.

I ask this question: what is the common factor? The common factor is the institution we are using to direct the money, which is the NHS. It does not see carers as significantly important contributors to it, and therefore it does not see this money as worth spending on them. That has to change.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

I acknowledge the right hon. Gentleman’s efforts when in government, and I agree that this issue has dogged successive Governments. I wonder whether we have reached the stage where we have to give some clear statutory rights to carers in respect of respite care, because whatever organisation has the budget, it does not seem able to recognise that this is an essential need if a person is going to continue to be a carer. Would the right hon. Gentleman entertain that approach?

[Paul Burstow]

To be honest, in this area the NHS is probably drinking in the last-chance saloon. If we do not see progress, legislation may be necessary. There is another way in which the money could, and should in future, be earmarked for this purpose. There have been transfers from the NHS to local authorities for the support of social care more generally, and in some local authority areas that has happened with the carers break money as well; it has been transferred. It has not happened everywhere, however, and I think it should now become mandatory, so this money gets spent for the purpose the Government said in their spending review it was for. That is a perfectly reasonable thing to expect, and the Government need to reflect on three years of this money not getting where it needed to be, after a number of years of that under the last Government as well.

A survey by Carers UK found that in one in five cases where a person who was receiving care from family or friends was admitted to hospital as an emergency, that could have been prevented if the carer had received more respite care and support. This makes big differences financially to the NHS. It uses resources better, and that is why it beggars belief that the NHS has not yet made sufficient progress, with its partners in local government, to improve access to breaks for carers.

Under the health service reforms, with clinical commissioning groups taking the lead, there have been some examples of improvement, such as in Huntingdon, where there is an interesting carers breaks project led by GPs. Partnered with Crossroads Care, they identify carers by meeting them socially, and prescribe breaks. Carers who are met in that way tell me they have for the first time had the experience of having raised their needs as carers and seen that translated into tangible action that made a difference for them. We need to see more of that. It is a vital lifeline.

As has already been said, there are huge issues to do with identification of carers. Research by Macmillan has found that while over 70% of carers came into contact with GPs, doctors and nursing staff, only 11% of all carers reported that they had been identified as a carer by a health professional. We as a Government talk about making every contact count, and we should do so when it comes to identifying carers. I hope the Minister can look afresh at what we can do to challenge NHS England to fulfil its obligations. I hope the National Audit Office will take a look at how successive Governments have attempted to engage the NHS with the carers agenda.

I want to finish by talking briefly about the Care Bill. It is no small thing that this is the first ever Government Bill to provide for carers’ rights. Until now, the cause of carers has been advanced by private Members’ Bills. Let me place on the record my appreciation for the work of the late Malcolm Wicks, whose Carers (Recognition and Services) Act 1995 was a landmark in the rights of carers and a fitting legacy for such a thoughtful and generous Member of this House. For the first time, the Care Bill enshrines in legislation carers’ rights to an assessment of their needs and, importantly, establishes a duty to meet those needs which are eligible. It also establishes clearly the need to consult and involve carers in decisions about the care of those they care for.

Although the Care Bill is hugely welcome, inevitably there are gaps and unintended consequences that must be addressed if all carers are to get the support they are entitled to. Following the Government’s welcome announcement last week of their intention to amend the Children and Families Bill to ensure that the rights of young carers are as strong as those proposed for adult carers, we must see the necessary changes to it and the Care Bill, and ensure that the rights of parent carers of disabled children, which have so far been neglected in both Bills, are not allowed to fall through the cracks.

I look forward to colleagues’ contributions and hearing them draw on their experience of engaging with carers in their constituencies. I know from talking and listening to carers, and from tweeting about carers’ issues, the genuine and palpable outrage they feel because all too often they are overlooked and under-supported. We need to change that. The Government are making good progress, but more still needs to be done.

11:36

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

The number of carers is growing, as is the impact of caring on the lives and health of carers. The right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) has touched on some of those issues, but I will go further.

Analysis by Carers UK of data published from the 2011 census has shown that the number of carers has increased substantially, by 11%, since 2001, and there are 35% more carers over the age of 65. We know that carers often combine paid work with raising their own children, as well as caring for other family members. In fact, one in four women and one in six men aged 50 to 64 have caring responsibilities for family members who are older or disabled. If we think about that for a moment, we start to realise the difficulties. Of course, many of us know people in that situation, or may be in it ourselves. Some 3 million carers juggle caring with paid work, so it is not surprising to learn that full-time carers are more than twice as likely to be in poor health as people without caring responsibilities.

Given all these stresses, carers should be getting advice and information to help them care, but it is becoming ever clearer that they are not. During the recent carers week, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, Members met carers to find out about their issues. Last week I went to a speed networking event, as I think it is called, here in the House, at which I met six carers. Two were carers of family members with cancer, two had cared for a partner or family member at the end of their life, and two were carers of spouses with Parkinson’s. Despite the differences in their caring, the one thing they shared was not having been given the information, advice and support they needed to be carers. As the right hon. Gentleman touched on to an extent, Macmillan Cancer Support tells us that carers of people with cancer come into contact most with health professionals, by whom they need to be identified and signposted. However, 95% of cancer carers are not getting a carers assessment.

It was revealing to talk to carers of people with cancer about how this had affected them. Cancer patients, as we know, may have long days of treatment in hospital, yet no one had told the carers I spoke to that a discount was available on expensive hospital car parking costs. One of the carers had to buy a hospital bed for use at home by her daughter, yet she was given no advice on where to buy one.

Similar issues crop up for carers of people with a terminal illness, but those carers are also juggling with the knowledge that they only have a limited time with the person for whom they are caring. Carol and Lucy were the two carers I met. One had cared for a partner and the other for her mother, both through to the end of their lives. Both said how much financial hardship they had had to accept to undertake that caring. The carer of her terminally ill mother could only get unpaid leave from her job and took it for 11 months. She lost her flat because she could no longer afford to pay the rent. It seems wrong that carers have to struggle on unpaid leave while caring for someone who is terminally ill. She never told her mother that the leave was unpaid or of the difficulties she was having.

Carers of people with cancer and of people who are terminally ill both cited the same issue: as carers, they were mainly ignored by the health professionals they encountered. They rarely asked them if they were coping and they did not signpost them to carers centres or carers associations for help and advice. In the cases of the very few carers of people with cancer who managed to have a carer’s assessment, that had most often been prompted by a referral from a GP. As the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam says, 70% of cancer carers surveyed had come into contact with a GP, doctor or nursing staff, but they are in the health world—the NHS world—not the local authority world. Very few of them have contact with local authority staff.

I think I met the same people at the event as the right hon. Gentleman, because I met John and Karen, who were each caring for a spouse with Parkinson’s. We have already heard some of the points that those carers made, but John said:

“In more than 30 years caring for my wife, my own GP has never asked how I am. He provides excellent support for my wife, but has never asked me how I am coping as her carer”.

Karen cares for her husband, who has Parkinson’s and was diagnosed only shortly after they were married. She says:

“I gave up work to help support him. I’ve never been told about a carer’s assessment nor has my GP asked how I am. It’s as if you are invisible.”

Parkinson’s is a long-term condition, but despite the fact that they might be caring for many years, only one in 10 Parkinson’s carers have been offered a carers’ assessment. Parkinson’s UK tells us that most are full-time carers, caring for someone for more than 50 hours a week—even up to 24 hours a day as the Parkinson’s progresses. Such carers are those most in need of advice, support and respite care or breaks.

That all matters because the Care Bill puts great emphasis on carers’ assessments rather than the identification of carers and the need to signpost them to sources of advice and support. Last September, I introduced a private Member’s Bill, the Social Care (Local Sufficiency) and Identification of Carers Bill. Three sponsors of that Bill are in the Chamber. The Government, sadly, did not support my Bill and their Back-Bench Members talked it out. The clauses on the identification of carers would have ensured that NHS bodies had the procedures in place to identify carers, promote their health and well-being and ensure they receive information and advice. Those are the exact areas from which the carers to whom I have talked would benefit. As I said during the debate on the Bill, I believe that the key focus in identifying carers should be those with the heaviest caring commitments.

The 2001 census found that 10% of all UK carers were caring for more than 50 hours a week. By 2011, that figure had more than doubled to 22%. It is worth noting, as I said during the debate on my Bill, that the proportion of carers in Salford who provide full-time care at that level has been higher for all of the last decade. It has not just changed, and I am sure that it is related to health inequalities.

Two wards in my constituency have high numbers of people caring for people with stroke disease, heart disease or cancer, which means that they have the heaviest caring commitments. We know that full-time care can take a toll on the carer’s health, and the health needs of those carers must be recognised. We know that those caring for more than 50 hours a week are twice as likely to suffer ill health and that those caring for a person with dementia or stroke diseases are even more at risk. Early identification and support for those carers would mean that they can maintain their health and sustain their caring role better.

The Carers Trust has a centre in Salford with a project to identify carers within primary care and at the Salford Royal hospital. Let me take this opportunity to pay tribute to that centre for its work in identifying carers, which it has been doing within primary care for many years. GPs and primary health care teams in my constituency have started to tackle the task of identifying carers, but there is much more to do. The manager of the centre tells me that having established a network of links within GP practices to identify carers, local GPs made 300 referrals last year, but we have 20,000 carers in Salford, 5,000 of whom will be caring at the heaviest levels. So we need to ensure that health bodies take action that meets the scale of the task of identifying carers and referring them to advice and support.

Young carers are the most hidden of all carers, and my Bill would have required local authorities to have a policy in place for identifying young carers and providing support for pupils in schools who are young carers. It would also have placed a duty on colleges of further and higher education to identify students who are carers and have in place policies to support them. Young adult carers at university or college have to balance giving care with their academic studies and learning. Some do that by caring at a distance, returning home at weekends or holidays to provide care, whereas others have to balance care and study by continuing to live at home and travelling to their local university so that they can maintain their regular caring roles. Hardly any of the carers I have talked about in my speech are in contact with local authorities or are likely to have had a carers assessment from a local authority. So the duty on carers assessments in the Care Bill would not help the carers I have met recently—the carers of people with cancer or of people who are terminally ill. And, as I have said, the local authorities are reaching only one in 10 of carers of people with Parkinson’s disease.

Young carers are also not being reached or supported adequately. The Carers Trust feels that the current law surrounding identification, assessment and support for young carers is complex and incoherent. Young carers are vulnerable and compared with other children they are at risk of poorer outcomes if they take on excessive and inappropriate caring roles because the adult’s needs are not being met. We know that inappropriate caring roles have an adverse effect on a child’s educational and emotional development.

The current position we have reached on that issue is most unsatisfactory. In its evidence to the Joint Committee on the draft Care and Support Bill, the Law Commission made it clear that it felt that young carers should be given the same rights as adult carers, so that the Bill became a single statute covering carers. Yet, young carers still do not have the same rights as adult carers in the Care Bill and there is no mention of them at all in the Children and Families Bill. That is not acceptable. The care services Minister and the children’s Minister have been making reassuring noises about meetings they have had to discuss this and about their intentions, but they have so far ignored a cross-party consensus among MPs and peers that they should act to improve young carers’ lives. Young carers should not be left with unequal rights compared with adult carers.

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)]

The hon. Lady said that we have so far ignored what she has been arguing for in terms of action. I just wanted to reassure her that I have absolutely not ignored that. I have said, I believe in the debate on the Queen’s Speech, that I would seek to meet the Minister dealing with the Children and Families Bill, and I have done that. I take the point the hon. Lady makes very seriously and I want to see action to address the concerns that she and others have raised.

[Barbara Keeley]

I thank the Minister for that point, but I have to tell him that he and the children’s Minister have to start to accept that making reassuring noises and having meetings is not enough.

[Paul Burstow]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right to be pushing this issue forcefully. We were given a commitment by the Under-Secretary of State for Education, the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson) last week that amendments would be drafted, and presumably they will be tabled in the House of Lords. It would helpful for us to know, and to hear from this Minister, that the Government will shortly be publishing the amendments that will be made to the Care Bill as well as those that will be made to the Children and Families Bill.

[Barbara Keeley]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that point. I am, however, going to push the matter with the Minister because there was an opportunity in this regard. New clauses were moved during the remaining stages on the Children and Families Bill last week that were copies of clauses from my Bill, and they would have required those bodies that I talked about to have policies in place. We are not talking about a large financial commitment; we are talking about bodies having policies in place. Our schools, our colleges and our higher and further education institutions should have policies in place to recognise young carers, but up and down the country they do not have those. The disappointment that organisations outside here that support young carers will have felt results from the fact that the debate was managed last week so that those new clauses were not reached. That does not show good faith, and if I were a member of the coalition of organisations that support young carers, I would look at that and say, “I don’t know what the Government are going to do.” The Minister will have to accept that they are still disappointing people who have not been protected sufficiently by the law.

I conclude by touching quickly on the financial context of social care and how it affects carers. Giving carers rights in the Care Bill is indeed a positive step, but the Local Government Association reminds us that the Government’s austerity programme and the need for further savings do not fit well with the aspirations of the Bill. Councils have had to reduce their adult social care budgets by 20% over the past three years. At least a quarter of those cuts are from reductions in services and increases in charges. Almost 90% of councils only meet needs that are at the substantial or critical threshold.

Staff at our local carers centre told me that carers are being affected by the bedroom tax, the increase in the value of non-dependent deductions, fewer sources of grant funding, and reductions to care packages that appear to be driven by cutting costs, not by changes in need. That is particularly true where they are caring for somebody with a learning or physical disability. Worries continue into the future when the change from disability living allowance to the personal independence payment starts to affect carers. The Government’s own impact assessment published in February indicated that almost 10,000 fewer carers will be entitled to carers allowance by 2015 as a knock-on consequence of the loss of disability benefits following the introduction of PIP. Carers UK has calculated that this represents a £31 million cut in support to carers. We should bear in mind that if those carers were left unable to care as a result of not having access to those carers benefits, replacing the care that they provide would cost at least £300 million in replacement adult social care services. That is a serious point.

This morning I asked a question about the loss of £28.3 billion of income for disabled people over the next five years through the combination of the welfare changes being made. We must take on board the fact that that loss of income will hit the carers of those disabled people. Carers, as we learned during carers week, are prepared to care. We must do better in supporting them.

11:51

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

It is good that the House has an opportunity today to debate the needs of carers. As co-chair of the all-party carers group, I welcome this debate. It provides us with an opportunity to be the collective voice for the 6.5 million carers in the UK.

In the run-up to carers week, Carers UK published a report entitled “Prepared to Care?” which had six important recommendations from carers about what they need to help them manage their caring role. They need better public understanding and recognition of carers. Carers should have access to information and the right support from the beginning. It is important to remember that every day 6,000 people take on new caring responsibilities in the UK, and from day one they need access to the right support, advice and information. Every day across the country there are people whose loved ones have a stroke or discover that they have been diagnosed with Parkinson’s or with age-related dementia, and they need support from day one.

Professionals need to understand the role of carers and share information, decision making and planning with them. The hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) made the point about the GP who treated a patient for years but never asked about the carer. Carers can no longer be treated as invisible. They need access to high-quality practical and emotional support and information, as well as breaks from caring. The point made by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) about respite care is crucial. When Carers Oxfordshire surveyed carers in Oxfordshire last week about the issue that caused them greatest concern, not surprisingly access to respite care came very near the top of the list. Carers need flexible working practices, understanding from employers, financial support, and a fair and easy-to-navigate welfare system.

A growing recognition of the number of carers in the country is evidenced by the fact that each year carers week gathers further and greater momentum. Carers week took place between 10 and 16 June. Alongside Carers UK seven other national charity partners—Age UK, Carers Trust, Independent Age, Macmillan Cancer Support, Marie Curie Cancer Care, the MS Society and Parkinson’s UK—came together to celebrate the contribution that carers make and to signpost them to the advice, information and support that they need.

This year’s carers week was the largest ever, with more than 2,600 groups registering to take part and more than 10,000 events up and down the country—that is a lot of events. Those organising events included carers’ groups, service providers, local authorities, hospitals, domiciliary care services, hospices and GP services. Events in Oxfordshire included Carers Oxfordshire—the umbrella group for carers in the county—running outreach events and advice stalls at local Sainsbury’s, Asda and Waitrose stores. Last Friday, I visited an Oxfordshire branch of Sainsbury’s and lots of people came up and asked questions, which was fantastic, because people do not always recognise that they are carers. Outreach events to identify carers also took place in GP surgeries and town and church halls across the county.

In Parliament, there was a “Question Time” event in Portcullis House with the Minister of State, Department of Health, the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), who is responsible for care and support. The event brought together the Association of Directors of Adult Social Care, Skills for Care, the Royal College of General Practitioners and Public Health England, alongside the campaign’s charity partners and carers, to debate how the NHS and social care can better support carers. Key issues discussed included the challenge of identifying and supporting carers when many people do not recognise themselves as carers, and how to ensure that carers are represented in the new NHS structures nationally and locally. Like all those taking part in today’s debate, I am sure, I was pleased when more than 100 parliamentary colleagues attended a parliamentary photocall in support of carers week. As the previous speaker mentioned, there was a useful speed networking event that enabled MPs to meet carers and hear their stories directly.

Interestingly and usefully, this year’s carers week saw increased engagement and involvement of employers in the campaign, which is important because, as Carers UK polling earlier this year showed, 2.3 million people have given up work at some point to care for loved ones, and census data published in May show that more than 3 million people are juggling work and care. That is a huge number of people, so getting employers involved in understanding the needs of carers is very important. I am glad to say that Sainsbury’s has continued its sponsorship of the employers for carers campaign, with nearly all its 1,200 stores running events, linking up with local groups and organisations to raise awareness of the support on offer to carers. Crucially, Sainsbury’s delivered information and advice not only to its customers but to staff with caring responsibilities.

I am also glad to say that Government Departments, such as the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, held carers week sessions for their staff, as did a number of private organisations, as the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) mentioned. Those included the Michelin Tyre Company, KPMG, HSBC, British Gas, Northamptonshire police, the UK Border Agency, BT plc, Credit Suisse, Transport for London, the Financial Ombudsman Service and the London fire brigade. There is growing recognition from employers in the private and public sectors that they have a duty of care to those of their employees who are carers. In Oxfordshire, Employers for Carers, in partnership with Oxfordshire county council and Carers UK, launched a new membership hub for local employers large and small, which will give local employers the opportunity to share good practice in supporting carers to juggle work and caring and to raise awareness of the business benefits of keeping carers in the work force.

[Kate Green]

It is encouraging to hear that list of the many employers who want to support the carers in their work force, and I am interested in what the hon. Gentleman says about spreading good practice among employers. Does he agree that the large employers have a particular role to play in working with their supply chains to spread good practice?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

That is an extremely good point. These things are organic. A few years ago big employers such as Sainsbury’s would not necessarily have been involved in that way. Having been involved in carers policy over the years, what I find encouraging is that each year a further step is achieved.

[Barbara Keeley]

I had not intended to make this point earlier, but I will make it now because so much has been said about employers. The Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority does not allow MPs’ staff to take compassionate leave; it allows MPs to give only sick leave or maternity leave, as I discovered late last year. Given all the good work that has been done with employers, that is an issue the whole House should take forward.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

One of the non-executive members of the IPSA board will shortly be work-shadowing me for a day, so I will certainly raise that valid point with her. I will give her lunch, out of my own taxed income, along with other colleagues who might want to talk with her, and the hon. Lady would be very welcome. I think that the board’s non-executive members have to take some responsibility for the way IPSA functions.

[Norman Lamb]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is not simply about employers having a duty to look after employees who have caring responsibilities; it is also about enlightened self-interest? It is an enormous own goal when so many employers lose really good and experienced employees, who could otherwise contribute so much to a business, because they have caring responsibilities. It is in their interests to keep those employees.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I entirely agree and hope that all employers see the enlightened self-interest in looking after carers. I think that there is a general recognition that everyone in the system has to start thinking about carers, particularly those who are caught in the sandwich generation and have to look after children and older relatives.

The two colleagues who have spoken in the debate have already set out the broad context of the research done in carers week: about three quarters of carers felt unprepared for their caring role; four in 10 had reduced their working hours because of caring; nearly a third had missed out on the chance of promotion; almost half had used savings to pay basic bills, such as those for heating and food; and more than a quarter had taken out a loan or fallen into debt as a result of caring.

I am conscious that many colleagues wish to speak. I will use the time remaining to highlight some specific concerns raised by Carers Oxfordshire. In anticipation of today’s debate, I asked Carers Oxfordshire about the concerns of local people. Unsurprisingly, there was a huge response from carers. I think that there is a feeling among many carers that one of the most important things is having their voice heard. The sorts of points raised were as follows:

“Carers would like to hear greater clarification about the implementation of the Care and Support Bill along the following lines: ‘Carers are very pleased to see the rights of all carers to have an assessment so clearly defined in law. The concern is that the regulations are written in the spirit of the legislation i.e. of widening the access to help and support for carers. The national eligibility framework needs to reflect this and ensure that the threshold of eligible needs is not set too high. The risk is that local authorities will use the framework to restrict “eligible needs” on the basis of limited resources, which could mean many carers will not be any better off in terms of the help and support they receive. We must ensure there is not a postcode lottery in the way the framework is operated by local authorities.’”

On respite for carers, respondents commented that it is

“too expensive and too hard to get currently as care homes often don’t ‘allow’ bookings to be made well enough in advance to allow carers to book holidays. There is very little financial help for ‘stay at home’ carers. What about care vouchers similar to child care vouchers being issued, or tax relief on care costs?”

With regard to GPs, the identification of carers is a really important issue. There

“needs to be more emphasis from GPs and a greater recognition of carers’ contribution and value, including their health and wellbeing.”

Another point was this:

“Poor quality of care provided by care agencies is a huge concern. Quality, reliability and accountability are ongoing concerns for carers.”

On carers in employment, concerns were expressed about the financial cost of care and the impact on those who have to give up work or reduce their working hours.

The respondents make an interesting point:

“Military carers and their family can suffer a significant disadvantage, to include homelessness due to ‘entitlement’ issues around properties when they take on caring responsibilities. Lack of recognition from the military.”

They continue:

“Carers want to see social care and nursing care fully combined as one discipline. As far as they are concerned they are one and the same thing. During one carer’s experience in the weeks prior to her mother’s hospital admission she had had three different teams visiting her throughout the day. They spent more time completing forms and leaving files than anything else. It was tiring and draining for her to have so many different people coming and going. Full integration of the two disciplines is key for continuity, to prevent duplication of effort and reduce needless bureaucracy.”

Finally, they state:

“Look at simplification of forms for applying for carers allowance and attendance allowance.”

It is really good news that the Care Bill will consolidate and simplify decades of social care legislation in England. We must not lose sight of the fact that it will include significant and welcome new rights for carers to improve access to carers assessments and new duties on local councils to provide care services. I share the concerns of the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) about young carers, but I am confident that those on the Treasury Bench have taken on those concerns and will table amendments to the Bill in the Lords to cover them.

We are making good progress. The direction of travel is a good one, but we have to recognise that a huge amount of distance still has to be covered if we are to be proper advocates and protectors of the millions of carers in the UK who selflessly give themselves to look after a loved one.

12:06

[Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak in this important debate. I congratulate the right hon. and hon. Members listed on the Order Paper on securing it.

I want to make a relatively short contribution to place on the record my view that the work that carers do for little or often no reward should never be underestimated or forgotten. They provide care and compassion of the highest level in the most challenging of circumstances.

I believe we need a far bigger and bolder response to meet the challenges of our increasingly ageing population. We need to recognise that in many circumstances a complicated mix of care is delivered by a combination of professional carers, family members or both. Carers need more support and that can only come from the Government. I want to address two issues in order to make that point.

First, we should acknowledge the importance of creating a care industry that people aspire to work in by appropriately rewarding the work they do. Secondly, the Government need to recognise further the work of thousands of unpaid carers up and down the country.

The demographic make-up of our population is obviously changing, which is already starting to stress our care system. That is happening against the backdrop of large-scale cuts across the system. According to the Local Government Association, local authorities have had to cut their adult social care budgets by 20% over the past three years, which means that in many places, such as Tameside, the metropolitan borough that my constituency covers, the amount of respite care available is being severely squeezed. I have seen some appalling cases in my surgeries—the kinds of cases that stay on my mind and often prevent me from sleeping at night because of the situation that many people face when the care they need is being taken away.

Against the backdrop of cuts, many carers work day in, day out, delivering excellent care but for poor pay, whether they work in a residential home or in a person’s home. Many of them are paid little more than the minimum wage for a job that should not just be a job, but a rewarding career for life. If we as a society want to demand the highest standards of care for ourselves when we get old, we should at the very least be prepared to pay a living wage for those who seek to deliver it.

That should happen alongside a concerted effort to improve skills across the care industry, investing in training and development to make the sector one in which people aspire to work. It could be a huge source of employment for the future—it is not possible to outsource care in the same way as we outsource other industries to another country—but I do not think that we even have a strategy to get us to that point.

Secondly, I want to discuss the impact on non-professional carers of the current pressures in the care system. In Tameside, approximately 2 million hours of unpaid care are given every year. If purchased from a paid carer, that would cost in the region of £22.5 million. That puts a high strain on carers, as has been mentioned. In Tameside, people are substantially more likely to be in ill health if they are carers, and that is in an area that already has poor public health. We should all take the time to recognise the stressful and important work that carers do.

Several of my constituents who are dedicated carers for the people they love have told me that they receive no recognition for the valuable work they do. That is why debates such as this are important. Many of them have had to give up their jobs, and in several cases the person for whom they are caring feels responsible for that, even though it is no fault of theirs.

The burden on many of those who care for loved ones has increased since the Government introduced their welfare reforms in April. In Tameside, increasing numbers of carers are reporting stress due to financial worries. The Government’s impact assessment into the changes to disability living allowance and carer’s allowance and the introduction of the personal independence payment shows that almost 10,000 fewer carers will be entitled to carer’s allowance. That is a massive blow for those who care full time. Locally, the number of people who are seeking support to complete their benefit forms is increasing. How can it be right that we are penalising these people for the work that they do? Where are the Government to support these people when they so desperately need and deserve it?

To conclude, I welcome the principle in the Care Bill of capping care costs. I do not think that it is set at the right level, but it is a welcome first step in reducing the burden of care. However, I believe that we need to explore a genuinely integrated health and social care system. That would not only help people to stay independent in their own homes for as long as possible, but reduce the burden on family members who deliver care each and every day. That is the challenge. I hope that we will see a developing political consensus, with Members on both sides of the House moving towards such a system, so that we can enshrine it, secure it and give people the system that they deserve and need for the years ahead.

12:11

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

I thank the Backbench Business Committee for giving us this timely opportunity to talk about the role of carers in society. All the organisations that the hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) talked about were UK-wide organisations. If I may, I will talk from a Welsh perspective, representing as I do the great Ceredigion constituency, although I appreciate that the Minister will not be able to address all the matters that are rightly devolved to our National Assembly in Cardiff.

As we have heard, this year’s carers week seeks to highlight how those in the UK’s carer population are coping with their role as a carer and how well the Government are supporting them in that role. That is a huge issue and it is of growing importance. There are currently 6.5 million carers and that is predicted to grow to 9 million carers in 25 years’ time. We need to ensure that people in the wider population are prepared for their future caring responsibilities.

I represent a rural constituency and we talk a lot in mid and west Wales about rural isolation. If we add to that the isolation that carers experience, it is a highly toxic mix and a huge challenge. That is coupled with the challenge of identifying carers, which the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) spoke about. I represent a huge tract of rural Wales that has scattered and sparse communities, including 147 villages. That makes it even more challenging to identify people and to build the networks that my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) talked about.

Ceredigion county council is attempting to rise to that challenge. It is taking part in this year’s carers week. The carers officer, Heather West, has informed me of an internal campaign that it has run to highlight the change in the known number of carers in the county. There was a 10% increase between 2001 and 2011 to 8,603 carers. There is also a huge number of people who provide care in excess of 50 hours a week. The numbers have grown and are set to grow further. The challenge in rural areas is to build networks so that we can initiate the support that is needed.

I am sure that hon. Members have read the Carers UK report. That research shows that seven out of 10 carers in the UK state that they were not prepared for all aspects of caring. Eight out of 10 were not prepared for the emotional impact of caring. Eight out of 10 were not prepared for the changes to their lifestyle because of a new caring role. Seven out of 10 carers were not prepared for the change in the relationship with the person for whom they care. I met somebody in my surgery a few weeks ago who, in the wake of his golden wedding anniversary, received the bombshell that his wife had a terminal condition. That couple had envisaged having a parity of caring roles in their old age. To have that responsibility shift in such a dramatic way to the husband was a huge shock. Seven out of 10 carers were not prepared for the financial impact of their caring role. As we have heard, 6,000 people take on new caring responsibilities every day.

The landscape has changed. In a previous life, 25 years ago, my first job was down the corridor in the House of Lords. I worked with pioneers in the carers movement, such as Baroness Nancy Seear and Baroness Jill Pitkeathley, who were trying to get official recognition for the term “carer” in statute. They achieved a great deal and we have achieved a great deal, but there is a long way to go.

In January this year, Ceredigion county council launched its e-learning carer awareness course, which can be done online. As is necessary in west Wales, it is fully bilingual. I took it this week. The course consists of four main sections: “Who cares?”, “Carers and the law”, “Meeting the needs of carers” and a test. That concept was initiated by Dudley metropolitan borough council and has been adopted by 40 local authorities across the UK. It is an excellent way to prepare people for the role of carer. It is just one small tool that can raise awareness. Many of my constituents are online and can access such courses.

The council is holding various events across the county focused on the “Prepared to Care?” theme. It has a widely distributed and widely read newsletter to update Ceredigion’s carers if they cannot attend the events.

The authority has also taken the opportunity of carers week to promote the Carers Count, Count Me In campaign, which seeks to register the 8,603 carers in the authority who were identified by the 2011 census data, only a small proportion of whom are officially registered. The aim is to get all carers registered with the Ceredigion carers development office. The sound logic behind that is that the more carers who are registered, the stronger the voice they will have in our area and with the local authority when campaigning for resources from the Welsh Assembly Government. It will also ensure that carers are recognised and valued, and that they have better services to equip them for the role. This year, the staff of the county council who juggle work and caring responsibilities, many of whom did not realise that they were carers, were targeted and a number did join the register.

A fantastic partnership has emerged between our carers development office and Aberystwyth university. They are researching the barriers and challenges in relation to carers needs assessments from the carer’s point of view. The research aims to highlight the support and advice that is available to carers and hopes to make the system more accessible. Critically, it will be independent research so that it can present an accurate and unbiased picture of what life is like for carers in our county.

Aside from preparing us to care, carers in my constituency also raised the issue of the spare room subsidy, or bedroom tax, during carers week. The carers office of Ceredigion county council has spoken to a large number of worried carers who are having to deal with new payment requirements even though they require a second room because of their extensive caring demands. A number of them are going through the appeals process, having already applied for discretionary housing payments. Although the local officers are doing their utmost to support carers, I think that the rules are inappropriate for such constituents. Above all, the stress caused by such matters and—to be frank—the stress that a number of welfare reforms have created for carers in our community gives me a great deal of anxiety.

In July, Carers Wales will hold a number of local sessions across Wales to meet local carers and try to allay some of their fears. Concerns have also been expressed about the attitude of banks to Court of Protection enduring power of attorney, and the mismatch between the banks’ policy and its delivery on the ground has caused a huge number of practical difficulties for carers. The Government can assist our carers in all those areas, and alleviate—at least in part—some of the stresses and strains that they experience.

As I have said, the debate has moved on and more people in the country are fully aware of what being a carer means—MPs certainly are from our casework every week and the people who come to our surgeries, and a new role needs to be pursued with employers and in the world of work. I wish the Government well in what they are doing, and I hope they will look at what I believe have been some helpful precedents across the border in Wales.

12:21

[Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) and his colleagues on initiating this debate, and we have heard some interesting and well-informed speeches.

Some of my colleagues referred—understandably—to legislation, and they have high hopes of the Bill currently going through Parliament. A long time ago I had the privilege of piloting through Parliament the Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and Representation) Act 1986. It was widely welcomed, but between then and now I discovered that although we can have an Act of Parliament, if it is not fully implemented it makes much less of an impression on people’s problems than we would like.

For example, section 8 of that Act dealt with the duty of local authorities to take the abilities of carers into account. I am sorry to say that I have not seen great enthusiasm among local authorities to implement that provision, although there are some excellent exceptions. When legislation is passed, including the 1986 Act, we all have a responsibility to work with carers organisations, which do a great job, and with carers in our constituencies, to ensure that the wishes of the House are implemented by health authorities, local authorities, the Department for Work and Pensions, and all those who have an influence on the lives of carers.

Together with Lord Brian Rix, I co-chair the all-party group on learning disability, and we are worried about the issue of carers and return to it often. We recognise, as other hon. Members have done, the hard work that carers do every day for the most vulnerable people, and that often their voices are not heard. That is largely because their role in looking after young people—or young people looking after elderly people—is a 24-hour, seven-day-a-week job.

As colleagues have said, caring is a stressful job and people receive few breaks to support what they are doing. In many cases, their commitment to the role is absolutely outstanding, touching and—as colleagues have said—deserving of statutory support that must be fully implemented. This is not my most important point, but carers have drawn my attention to the economics of what is happening, and it is right to mention that according to Carers UK, voluntary acts by carers save the UK public purse £119 billion per year. Do we not have a responsibility to respond? I believe we do.

Let me explain why short breaks are important. Family carers need time off and a break from the constant work of caring. Some families access short break centres or schemes that involve placements with families. Others receive direct payment to purchase their own support—I very much welcome that and was involved in that legislation. As hon. Members have indicated, the current review of welfare has had many effects. My niece and nephew are carers at weekends and look after people with learning disabilities. They stay overnight and therefore need a room for themselves. Under the Government’s legislation, however, and the tax we all deplore—the bedroom tax—we find that it might not be possible for them to continue doing that job. It would also be hard for their clients to find a smaller house that can be adapted in the way their current houses are, quite apart from the problems and upset that such a move would mean.

In 2003, a report by Mencap showed that eight out of 10 carers were at breaking point. Its 2006 report showed that the number had fallen to seven out of 10, but new research indicates that it is now back to eight out of 10. I do not believe that we in Parliament distinguish ourselves if we allow such conditions to continue throughout our country and in individual homes and communities in our constituencies.

The vast majority of carers are not being offered the short breaks they desperately need. One carer stated:

“When you care for someone 24 hours per day and you know it’s going to be for ever, sometimes a short break is your only hope.”

I am sorry to say that we do not often deliver that. Of the few carers who access short breaks, most do not feel that the services are adequate, and seven out of 10 say that they do not receive services that fully meet their family’s needs.

I acknowledge the Government’s recent investment of £1.2 billion in services for people caring for children and adults, but according to Mencap—a well-informed organisation that does work on the ground—there have been no improvements in the well-being of family carers a decade after the issue was first highlighted.

I speak as a former councillor and former president of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, but I am disappointed with the role of local councils. Many are failing to meet their duty to assess needs and regularly review care arrangements. Despite the role of local authorities—I do not mention health boards, although they are important too—the startling facts are that six out of 10 carers have never had a carer’s assessment to identify their needs. Worse than that, two out of 10 said that they had been refused an assessment altogether. Mencap says that after 10 years that is simply unacceptable, but I would put it much more strongly: it is a blight on all of us.

The big issue is that families simply do not know how to access those vital short breaks. Three out of 10 family carers have never had a short break and do not know how to access them. Much more must be done. The fundamental failure of some local authorities to provide information about what is available is not acceptable, even from a statutory point of view. Carers are being left in the dark, without support and on their own. Local authority spending is in decline. According to Mencap, spending by local authorities on children’s short break services peaked in 2010-11, but 63% of local authorities reduced this expenditure in 2011-12. In the current economic climate, money must be saved—we understand that—but not on the back of those who have already sacrificed so much for the most vulnerable, including family members and others.

Spending on adult services has also fallen consistently over the past three years, with 54% of local authorities reducing their spending on short breaks for adults in 2012-13 compared with the previous year. We need to listen to what carers take the time to tell us. One carer felt “absolutely devastated” and continued:

“I have sobbed over the way”

the council

“has informed us of their decision to close this wonderful care home.”

I say again that we cannot balance the books on the backs of hard-working people or build a better society by disregarding those who give the most.

So what needs to be done? We need substantial and meaningful action from the Government, local authorities, health bodies and service providers. No family carer should be left to reach breaking point and every family that needs a short break should get one. Each carer should have their needs identified and should not feel that they are alone and without support. Money that is intended for short breaks should be spent on providing short-term breaks. We need services that are person-centred and able to meet the differing care needs of the people who use them. Information about local need for short breaks should be collected more consistently, distributed accordingly and used to inform what services are made available to all the public.

I end with a quote provided by Mencap. This parent said:

“I love my children and that keeps me alive but I’m worn down…When I can’t cope I self-harm as I have to carry on but it’s too much to handle at times.”

Carers’ voices must be heard, their needs must be met and they must never feel defenceless and alone.

12:33

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in this debate. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), who has made a huge contribution not only today but throughout his parliamentary career—as a Minister and now from the Back Benches—in raising these issues.

I had the great privilege of being parliamentary ambassador for carers week for the Conservative party, along with my coalition partner, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam. Rather than trying to cover what was an encyclopaedic summary of the issues affecting carers, the excellent research communicated during the week or, indeed, many of the points made by colleagues on the Opposition Benches, I would instead like to back up everything that he said in describing so well the challenges and opportunities and summarising the Government’s position. I will then make some reflections and observations on my time as an ambassador.

I would like to congratulate the organisations that came together to form carers week, because they achieved something quite remarkable. More than 26,000 organisations across the UK came together and put on more than 100,000 events. Why is that important? From the events I attended, I realised it was vital to raise awareness of the services and financial help available for carers. Like many other Members, I am sure, I often find in my casework and when visiting organisations in my constituency that those who most need help are often the least likely to access it, and we have to work hard to ensure that the legislation, the benefits and the rights that we provide for in the House get into the hands of the people who really need it.

When attending the events in my constituency, I was struck by a fundamental problem touched on by the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams): many carers do not identify themselves as such. I spent some time in the lobby of the Royal Cornwall hospital trust alongside volunteers and care support workers from the Cornwall Rural Community Council. They would approach people who were clearly carers—elderly people pushing people in wheelchairs, coming into hospital, attending appointments or leaving hospital—and ask them, “Are you a carer?” They would ask them very nicely and in a friendly manner, with a view to engaging with them to ensure they were getting the help to which they were entitled, but the people would hurry on saying, “No, I’m not a carer.”

If, however, we asked whether they looked after someone—a husband, wife, child or loved one—they replied yes. If we asked them, “Do you regularly provide support perhaps through cooking meals or going shopping?”, they replied yes. We need to think about that a bit more in our desire to find out who carers are and ensure they get the support they need, whether from the NHS, councils, employers or the voluntary sector and wider community. We need to think about how we frame the conversation to enable people to identify themselves as carers, because most of the people I spoke to said, “Well, I’m just doing what any family member would do. This is what families do.” If somebody is ill or has a disability or care need, families gather round. I took that from my meetings last week, and it is particularly important in literature. Central Government produce a lot of literature, and a lot of benefits leaflets go out through the Department for Work and Pensions and throughout the health service, so we should think about the terms we use and how we can engage with people in that literature.

Another thing I reflected on after speaking with carers last week—this came out in the reports—was the evidence on the number of people who gave up work to care. This can have a detrimental impact on the carer: they miss the social contact provided at work and can feel quite isolated and often trapped at home, especially in remote rural areas, such as those in my constituency, where it is difficult to use public transport and connect to wider society. It also has a detrimental impact on household incomes and pension provision. The main question that Carers UK is asking the whole nation is the right one: are we prepared to care? It is a question for the whole of society. Are employers prepared to provide those flexible working opportunities to enable people both to attend to their caring responsibilities and to work?

We have to be realistic, however, because many people are worried about their job at the moment, and so, for fear of losing their job, are unlikely to talk to their employer about the need to work flexible hours. The Government need to engage with employers—there are exemplars, such as BT, with a long track record of recruiting and retaining older workers and enabling flexible working—about the research and the issues and to get them thinking about making it easier for their staff to request flexible working. The huge triumph in employment in the past century was to enable women to juggle caring responsibilities for children and work. In this century, as we respond to significant demographic changes, we need a massive shift to enable workers of all ages to combine other caring responsibilities. For older people and people with disabilities, that is a very important lesson from carers week.

Carers told me that even if they wanted to carry on working—if they had the income and were prepared to pay for care, or have a mixture so that they would do part of the caring but pay for people to come into the home to support them, and their loved ones agreed to that—they were anxious about the quality of the care they would be inviting into their homes. All of us were horrified by recent revelations about some of the carers going into people’s homes, whether they were paid for by individuals or local authorities as part of their domiciliary care service. Until we crack the nut of ensuring that high-quality, well-trained and well-paid carers are going into people’s homes, people will have a great fear and reluctance to try and combine caring responsibilities with employment.

We find a sad position in too many local authorities. We all understand that councils’ budgets are under a lot of pressure. I was a councillor and I know that it is difficult to balance all the needs of one’s community with conflicting demands on what the council should be spending its money on. No two people agree on what a council’s priority should be. For me, it is straightforward: a council’s responsibility, like central Government’s responsibility, is to prioritise the care of the most vulnerable people in society. However, in contracting for domiciliary care, local authorities are cutting their payments so low that it is difficult for private care providers to provide a good quality of care while remaining economically sustainable. That reduces the options available for the vast majority of people who self-fund care.

[Norman Lamb]

I agree very much with the points my hon. Friend is making. Instead of commissioning on the basis of a quarter of an hour and a race to the bottom with the lowest bidder winning the contract, does she agree that commissioning that provides incentives to improve the well-being of the individual being cared for—maintaining their mobility and improving their capacity to remain independent—is the way in which local authorities should be contracting providers of care at home?

[Sarah Newton]

I absolutely agree that local authorities should be remorselessly focused on the best possible outcomes for the people they have a duty to provide care for. They should also understand that while the vast majority of people are not eligible for local authority care, local authorities have a responsibility as market shapers in their localities to ensure that private, third and voluntary sector organisations are able to provide the care services that most people pay for themselves. By constantly engaging in a race to the bottom, they are undermining the ability of those organisations to provide services to the community. Most private or third sector domiciliary care providers need a certain amount of contracts or business from the local authority.

[Paul Burstow]

My hon. Friend is making an important point about the patchy quality of domiciliary care. There are good examples, such as in Wiltshire, where the service has been remodelled to focus on outcomes. However, there is an issue about whether the Government have the necessary powers to ensure that where poor commissioning practice is allowing contracting by the minute, which is resulting in sub-standard care to an individual, they can ensure good quality commissioning practice in the future. The Joint Committee on the draft Care and Support Bill has recommended a change in the law and the Government are doubtful of its need. Does she agree that the Government need to keep thinking about that and perhaps come back with an amendment?

[Sarah Newton]

I back what my hon. Friend says. The Joint Committee’s report was excellent and showed Parliament at its best. People with tremendous experience from the House of Lords and this place worked together to scrutinise and improve that excellent Bill. The Government should be commended for introducing it at a time of economic restraint, especially as it has financial consequences: spending more money on supporting carers is a bold thing to do at the moment and it underlines the great value we put on carers. I back my hon. Friend in his call for an amendment, because if local authorities are tempted to avoid doing what we would all regard as the right thing—to look after the most vulnerable people in our society—we need to tighten up the law to remove that temptation from them.

I would like to share another issue that was raised in carers week. The strong message from carers was that they do not always feel involved in the decisions made by professionals about the people they are caring for. The Government have, rightly, enshrined in their health and social care reforms the principle that “No decision should be taken about me without me.” I would like to extend that so that “No decision is taken about the person I am caring for without me.” I have heard far too many cases, in my own case work and during carers week—particularly from parents caring for children with disabilities—where substantial decisions, on whether their children should be cared for away from their home many hundreds of miles away, were considered without proper discussion with the parents. That is absolutely wrong. There is a prevalent attitude among some professionals that they know best: “Trust me, we know what is best for your child. Trust me, we know what is best for your wife or your husband.” While I would like to be able to trust all professionals—we think that by and large they do have the best interests of people at heart—there should be openness and transparency. Carers should be involved in decisions, so that there is a joint agreement and an understanding about what is in the best interests of the person being looked after.

On a more positive note, I would like to share some of the good practice I saw during carers week. I saw great examples of innovation involving the voluntary sector, in particular. We have talked about statutory provision and what employers can do, but broader civil society and the voluntary sector have an enormous role to play too. I would like to share two examples from Cornwall, one of which is from my own constituency.

A group of people in Falmouth in my constituency responded to the Prime Minister’s dementia challenge by wanting to ensure that everybody in the community supported people with dementia. More than 200 organisations in Falmouth got together to make it a dementia-friendly community. I was proud, in my hometown, to be at the launch a couple of weeks ago, and I was proud that it was the first town in Cornwall, and probably one of the first in the country, to be a dementia-friendly community.

What does it mean to be a dementia-friendly community? It means that the shopkeepers in the high street have gone through awareness training. It means that we have dementia cafes and that the people in the youth centre are aware of people with dementia. Overall, it means that people who suffer from dementia, or are caring for someone who suffers from dementia, can go into Falmouth with confidence, knowing that they will receive a warm welcome in the shops, libraries, public spaces and the youth centre. The people there will understand more about dementia and some of the behaviour that comes with it. Some people might find that behaviour a little bit challenging and scary, which often makes the people who care for someone with dementia want to stay at home. They can be fearful of the response they will receive in a public space and end up becoming isolated. I can honestly say that people with dementia will receive a very warm welcome in Falmouth, thanks to the huge amount of work done by a small group of volunteers ably led by the Bridges, who are Rotarians in Falmouth.

The whole community has got behind this exciting project—indeed, so much so that another group of people in Falmouth, led by a former nurse, Lisa Dann, has been working with Dementia UK over the last year to raise enough money for two admiral nurses. For those who do not know, admiral nurses, who are similar to Macmillan nurses, are specialist nurses who work alongside those with dementia and their carers, providing a lifeline for people coping with what can be a very difficult condition. Lisa was motivated to set up the charity and raise funds because of the poor support that her mum and her family received when her dad was suffering, before sadly dying from dementia.

Lisa has created a fantastic legacy in recognition of her father by raising enough funds—£60,000 in one year, which is a great credit to her, her team and the community—for the whole of Cornwall to have two admiral nurses. Her group is working innovatively in a partnership with a large social enterprise in Cornwall—Cornwall Care, which is the largest independent care provider in the county—to make the scheme sustainable. The group will be raising more money for more admiral nurses, which will provide a huge amount of support for carers, as well as people suffering from dementia. That is a good example of how the voluntary sector and volunteers can create a caring environment for carers.

[Norman Lamb]

I came across another example in my hon. Friend’s county called Changing Lives, where GPs work together—

[Sarah Newton]

I was just about to come to that.

[Norman Lamb]

I very much agree with my hon. Friend about the role of civil society. That will be a vital collaboration if we are to meet the challenge, given the rise in the number of people who need care.

[Sarah Newton]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. When the hon. Lady addresses that point, will she also pay attention to the fact that there are other Members who wish to speak and that she has been speaking for nearly 18 minutes?

[Sarah Newton]

I am grateful for your advice, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I am sorry. It is just that I am so passionate about this subject that I have lost track of time.

I am pleased that the Minister remembers that experience—this was the final point I was coming to—and has agreed to meet Tracey Roose from Age UK and Ian Jones from Volunteer Cornwall quite soon to take forward what he experienced first hand in Cornwall with some more ideas. Changing Lives is a fantastic example of how volunteers can work with GPs to ensure that people have access to all the care and support that they need to live happy, fulfilled lives in their communities. The pilot in Cornwall has had some quite dramatic results, not only in terms of carers feeling better supported and the vulnerable, frail older people concerned having a better quality of life, but in huge savings for the NHS, with 30% fewer unplanned admissions in our acute trust.

These are all the things that we instinctively and intuitively know—that if people get good advice, the help and support they need and opportunities to play their part in society, they can live independent lives at home. The Government can be proud of much of what they are doing, but given the concerns of carers we have heard throughout the week there is clearly still much more to do. I for one look forward to supporting the Government’s efforts to make this a proud country and a great place to grow old and care for people.

12:53

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), the hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) and my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) on organising this debate. I am grateful for the opportunity to speak after such thoughtful contributions. I want to focus on unpaid carers; I will leave others to talk about the care system as a whole.

As we have heard, carers play a vital role, not just for their family members and friends but for the country. In the past decade, the number of carers has grown from just under 5 million to nearer 7 million. By 2037, it is estimated that the number will have increased to nearly 9 million. In my constituency, there are 11,076 unpaid carers, nearly a quarter of whom provide care for more than 50 hours a week. As has been said, we know that this is an underestimate of the actual number who provide care. My hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South talked about the lack of information and advice, which has certainly been identified in my constituency. Age UK in Oldham recently opened an information and advice centre, and I hope that people will avail themselves of that. Like other Members, I, too, have had the plight of carers increasingly brought to my attention in my surgeries. Their situation is a growing problem.

In today’s terms, the role played by carers saves the economy £119 billion a year. That is more than the total NHS budget and nearly six times the adult social care budget. The country could not survive without the work that carers do, and that is even more so today, with the crisis that social care is facing. We are facing the double whammy of an ageing society—it is great that we are, on the whole, living longer, although austerity is certainly having an impact on life expectancy—and a meltdown in social care in local authorities, with cuts to their budgets having an impact on social care budgets. Unfortunately, carers are picking up the tab. A recent Carers UK survey showed that a third of those caring for more than 35 hours a week have no support at all. Although 3 million carers juggle work with caring responsibilities, one in five has been forced to give up work.

In addition to the lack of support for caring, carers across the UK are starting to see the impact of the Welfare Reform Act 2012. Changes to financial support with housing and council tax in some areas mean that many families are experiencing reduced financial support from more than one of the changes. The discretionary funding set aside by councils to support people affected by the bedroom tax is enough to help only one in 10 disabled people. Carers who require an additional room because they cannot share with partners who sleep in hospital beds, or parents of disabled children who need the space for care workers to provide overnight care are being seriously let down. More than 5,000 families with care needs are faced with either moving or finding an extra £700 a year.

The cumulative effects of the economic downturn, a squeeze on wages and the increasing costs of essentials such as food and fuel, along with the cuts in social security support, are making it more difficult for carers to manage. More than four in 10 carers in the Carers UK survey said they had been in debt as a result of caring. This year will see other changes to the benefits system, as the transfer of disability living allowance to the personal independence payment and the universal credit are introduced, which is also of considerable concern to many carers. DLA was the gatekeeper to carer’s allowance. The changes mean that 10,000 fewer carers will not be entitled to carer’s allowance. Many of us have already called on the Government to review these changes and undertake a cumulative impact assessment of the effects of these welfare reforms. For many, they will be the tipping point.

In addition to that, and as a consequence of debt and a lack of support, there are significant effects on the health of carers. Eight out of 10 carers report that their caring role affects their physical health and nine out of 10 say that their mental health has suffered. This is not only a human tragedy; we are storing up problems for the future by not caring for our carers.

I know about that from my personal experience of caring for my mum—I have spoken about her before—who died of Alzheimer’s last September. She had Alzheimer’s for 10 years, and for the last three years was unable to communicate or to feed or toilet herself. Although my mum lived in the States, I provided respite care during leave, so I can personally attest to the physical and emotional toll that it had on me. In the last few months of her life she was bedridden. I am little, but I am fairly fit and strong, yet physically trying to lift her to bathe her or change her continence pads was something I found really difficult to manage. The worst thing was the emotional toll, however, as I worried how everyone was coping.

I want to spend the last few minutes talking about young carers. One of the last research projects I worked on before I was elected to this place concerned the effect on young carers’ health of their caring role. Many people will be surprised to learn that, according to recent census figures, there are more than 178,000 young carers in England and Wales. Those are the official figures, but we know that they are an underestimate. Children as young as five are looking after family members who are physically or mentally ill or disabled, their roles ranging from doing household chores to providing nursing or personal care.

The effects on those children and young people are immense and lifelong. Because of their caring responsibilities, nearly a quarter of young carers often miss school or have educational difficulties. Young carers are also more likely to grow up in poverty, to be socially excluded, to have low aspirations and achievement and to have relationship issues. Those problems can follow them throughout their lives. There is also evidence of significant effects on their physical and mental health, with anxiety, depression and self-esteem issues being particularly prevalent. It has been shown that, after a year of caring, morbidities fail to return to pre-caring levels.

Services do not always respect young carers and the role that they play. My research indicated that many young people felt excluded from discussions about their family member’s care, even though they were providing much of it. Some of the responses to questions on whether the young carers should be allowed to see their parents in hospital, for example, were quite heartbreaking. Similarly, many young carers felt that there was a lack of understanding and support from their teachers and schools. I echo what my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South said about this. We must ensure that schools take seriously their role in supporting young carers.

[Barbara Keeley]

I have mentioned the fact that we have a young carers project in Salford that is doing great work. It was interesting, however, that one of the schools involved came back to the project and said, “We have no young carers at all”, when the project knew that it did. The perception among some head teachers is that they do not have any. Is my hon. Friend worried about that as well?

[Debbie Abrahams]

I totally agree with my hon. Friend; that is very worrying, and we must try to do better by those young people.

I am encouraged by what the Minister has said today about the discussions, but I reiterate my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South’s sentiment that warm words are not enough. Will he tell us when we can expect to have the amendments included in the Children and Families Bill? The rights of parent carers of disabled children are also still in limbo, and the Government must bring forward changes to the Bill to ensure that the rights of that group of carers are not left behind. I recognise the Government’s commitment to carers’ rights, but I reiterate my earlier remarks: no matter how much we legislate for assessing carers’ needs, it is meaningless without the means to implement it. Local authority budgets have been pared to the bone, and that is having an impact on social care budgets. How are we going to deliver those assessments? A further £800 million of cuts are planned for this year alone. I would be grateful if the Minister would address that point as well.

13:03

[Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)]

I congratulate the Backbench Business Committee and the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) on securing this important debate. It is a pleasure to contribute to it. I was delighted to be invited last week to Inverclyde’s national carers week event, the theme of which was “Prepared to Care?” A marvellous week of activities was organised to highlight caring, and special thanks must go to the secretary of the local carers forum in Inverclyde, Mrs Christina Boyd, who put together an interesting week of activities for the carers who attended.

On the day I attended, my local leisure company demonstrated keep fit with carers. It was announced as low-impact seated aerobics, and of course I took part. It is difficult to describe it, and perhaps difficult for Members to visualise it, without the accompanying music. Perhaps we should consider introducing it in the House, although I dare say that some members of the public think that we already have.

The focus should be on carers all year round, not just for one week. We need to recognise and support the work that they contribute, both on a personal level and to our community and society as a whole. That contribution has never been greater. The statistics on caring up and down the country are quite staggering. One in eight adults is a carer, which equates to about 6 million people. Every day, another 6,000 people take on a caring responsibility, equating to more than 2 million people a year. More than 1 million people care for more than one person. It has been estimated that carers save the economy £119 billion a year—an average of more than £18,000 per carer.

[Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on making those points. He will appreciate that many carers are older people. Has he, like me, been approached by constituents—women in particular—who are upset that they will lose their carer’s allowance when they reach retirement age? Does he agree that it would be appropriate to have some form of carer’s supplement for such people, not only in recognition of their contribution but to meet the additional costs involved in caring?

[Mr McKenzie]

I agree wholeheartedly with my hon. Friend. Many of my elderly and women constituents have approached me with that very big worry in mind. It is something that we need to look at, and that the Government need to respond to.

More than 3 million people juggle care with work, but the significant demands of caring mean that many carers are forced to give up work altogether. The main carers benefit is £58.45 for a minimum of 35 hours. That is the equivalent of £1.67 per hour, which falls far short of the national minimum wage. However, 1.25 million people provide more than 50 hours of care per week.

Carers’ health can also suffer. People providing high levels of care are twice as likely to fall sick. The fact that 625,000 people suffered mental and physical ill health last year as a direct consequence of the stress and physical demands of caring illustrates the true impact on carers’ health. Research by Carers Scotland found that almost half of carers with health problems reported that their conditions began after they started caring. Of those whose condition pre-dated their caring role, a quarter said that their condition had worsened since becoming a carer.

Caring clearly takes a huge toll on carers’ physical and mental health, and those not receiving respite are far more likely to suffer from mental health problems. The impact is often exacerbated by carers being unable to find time for medical check-ups or treatment for themselves, with two in five carers saying that they are forced to put off treatment because of their caring responsibilities. Research by Carers UK includes cases of carers discharging themselves from hospital because of an absence of alternative care.

I took questions from carers at the carers forum last Friday, and it was no surprise that their biggest worry at the moment is the bedroom tax. The Government should urgently review the impact that the charge is having on carers, because the vast majority of care in the UK is provided by family and friends. The work that family and relatives do so willingly is often ignored or goes unseen. Family carers are truly the unsung heroes of our communities. Social services and the NHS rely on carers’ willingness and ability to provide care, yet we as a society seem to put very little value on carers or recognise their commitment.

Social isolation and social exclusion are often remarked on by carers. They feel very isolated and report not having enough respite to have personal relationships of their own. They also report the stress and guilt associated with taking time off from their caring role. Many have not had even a day off in a whole year.

Many carers and carer households are often in poverty because carers have had to give up work or take on part-time work. They say that they could not otherwise fulfil their role as a carer. Of those in part-time work, many are in low-paid employment, and young carers are more often found in the NEET category—not in education, employment or training—or leave school with fewer qualifications.

What of the professional carers? According to a recent report on the plight of carers in the UK by the union Unison, the current system of home care is failing the people who receive it and the people who provide it. Unison describes the treatment of those receiving care and of workers as an outrage. It says private home care workers are being exploited—effectively paid below the minimum wage and given little or no training. Care workers are among the most poorly paid workers in the country; most are on the minimum wage, and there has been an increase in the number of zero-hours contracts. More than half of the care worker respondents to the recent survey reported that their terms and conditions had worsened over the last year.

What about the level of training? Can we say it is adequate? Well, 41% of care staff are not given specialist training to deal with their clients’ specific medical needs, such as dementia and stroke-related conditions. Standards and training are insufficiently regulated. We should compare this with Germany, where carers require several years’ training.

What of the care provided by our local authorities? Local authorities are being squeezed at this time of austerity and having made all the efficiency savings they can, they are now in a dilemma—at least they are in Scotland. They have to make very hard decisions and have to meet the challenge of delivering core services such as care with reduced funding while maintaining the same level of quality. I fear that things will only get more difficult for local government to continue to deliver high-quality care.

In conclusion, we owe the millions of carers out there the respect and all the assistance we can give them because some day we may just find ourselves performing a caring role or being cared for ourselves.

13:12

[Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to take part in this important debate, which affects so many of our constituents around the country. I add my appreciation and congratulate the Members who requested the Backbench Business Committee to provide time for this debate, and indeed the Backbench Business Committee itself on recognising the significance of this issue. This debate is timely because many Bills and other measures either before the House or to be debated over the coming weeks and months will have a huge impact on carers.

Before dealing with that, I want to speak about why this issue is so important to many of my constituents. There are 14,980 carers in Corby and East Northamptonshire —a rise of 23% over the last 10 years, which is higher than the 11% rise nationally. There are nearly 3,500 carers in Corby and East Northamptonshire who care for more than 50 hours a week—a rise of 40% over the last 10 years, which is far higher again than the national average increase of 25%. Of those nearly 15,000 carers in my constituency, more than 8,000 are juggling work and caring, which presents many issues.

I support the points that other hon. Members have made about the need for employers to demonstrate really good practice in this area and support employees who have caring responsibilities. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) in deploring the fact that the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority is not prepared to set a good standard in this place, where Members are not allowed to grant their staff compassionate leave. I think we should be an exemplar in this and should work together across the House to urge IPSA to change its practice.

In my constituency, many people are employed through employment agencies. Even where there are opportunities for employers to show their employees that they are good and caring, many of my constituents will not be touched by that. They will find that they are not able to continue working and caring. My hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie) referred to the amount of the carer’s allowance. It does not compare well with jobseeker’s allowance, for example. We should have an aspiration to improve it. In recognising the significant number of people involved and the huge cost implications of trying to increase the support for carers out there, we must also recognise that the carer’s allowance provides a very small amount for our constituents to live on. The financial challenges, as other Members have said, are getting much tougher at the moment.

I attended various events during national carers week, including the event here in Parliament. I want to congratulate all the organisations that came together to organise national carers week. I met people from the Multiple Sclerosis Society, Marie Curie and other organisations, who told me about their experiences. I think they were absolutely right to bring carers themselves to talk to us here in Parliament about their experiences. They reflected many of the conversations I have had with my own constituents. I met a carer who cares for his wife who has MS and a former carer who cared for her husband who had cancer. They both asked me to champion raising the carer’s allowance. That is what I want to do today.

Carers UK’s analysis of the recent census shows that the fastest-growing group of carers are people over 65 with caring responsibilities. There has again been a much more significant rise in those numbers in my constituency than nationally, with a 35% rise of older carers nationally compared with a 62% rise in Corby and East Northamptonshire. I am determined to engage with local organisations—including charitable and voluntary organisations that work with carers, but also local authority and local health bodies—to try to understand why the rise is so significant in my constituency, the extent to which those bodies have been able to respond to it and whether that trend will continue.

Carers over 65 who receive the state pension are, as hon. Members have said, unable to receive carer’s allowance—despite the fact that they still face additional costs as a result of caring and have often lost earnings from retiring early to care. What plans do the Government have to provide more practical and financial support to people who spend their retirement caring for their partners, adult disabled children or their own older parents? My own parents are approaching retirement and they, like many people nowadays, find themselves part of what is called the sandwich generation. They not only help me to bring up my children, providing lots of extra help and support for child care, but increasingly find that they are taking on a care and support role for their parents. That matter should concern all of us. It is particularly important in the context of our full knowledge that we have an ageing population, which will present a growing challenge for us.

Carers UK figures show that carers are out of work for an average of five years as a result of giving up work to care for an older or disabled loved one. Many struggle to return to work afterwards, yet find that their carer’s allowance stops very quickly. What support can be provided to help carers when caring comes to an end to ensure that they do not fall into financial hardship as a result of losing carers’ benefits? What can we do to help them return to work, retraining where necessary?

I recently met a lady who came to my surgery in Raunds to talk to me about her experience. Her particular concern was about the impact of the bedroom tax, but she also told me how her life of caring for her husband had come to an end as he sadly passed away. She told me how unsupported she felt in the months afterwards, as some of the help and support she had hoped for—previously in place in part because of her caring responsibility—was taken away from her. She then found she had to contend with the bedroom tax on her large family house. She had no choice—either move from her family home quickly as she grieved for her husband or face financial destitution. I felt incredibly sad that she faced that situation.

I was recently visited by my constituent, Mags Maguire, who told me about her mum, Mrs McKay. She asked for my help in trying to ensure that a care package was in place for her mother. I have tried on her behalf; I have, unfortunately, not made sufficient progress, but I will keep trying. Mags herself is a resourceful person. She recently contacted the occupational therapist again to describe the situation she faced. The occupational therapist replied:

“Hi Mags, just to let you know...We rarely prioritise cases as critical, as this is for cases where if something is not done immediately it will be a case of life or death and if there is nothing else that can be done and provided to reduce that risk in the interim and the major adaptations are the only way to reduce risk. We can still be waiting 12+ months for works to be done under a ‘critical’ priority as the amount of funding available will affect the waiting list times.”

Mags is merely requesting some small adaptations to the home in which her mum lives, and it seems to me that that ought to be possible.

The occupational therapist continued:

“I could not prioritise the case as urgent as Mrs McKay has a care package to meet her personal care needs and meals and also family to support.”

The “care package” is, in fact, the family support. The family get Mrs McKay up in the morning, and the family provide the meals. The “care package” is not provided by anyone other than the family members themselves.

I have personal experience, in that my granddad cared for my nan for many years. He died on the day after Boxing Day, 18 months ago. He undertook those caring responsibilities without any help or support—which, of course, saved the taxpayer a huge amount of money—and he undertook them willingly because he loved my nan hugely and they had spent their whole lives together, but by the end of his life his own health had suffered greatly because of the extra responsibility that he had taken on as a carer. He would have been happy to continue that responsibility, but an intervention should have been made earlier to provide him with at least some additional help and support.

What was even worse was that after granddad died, we tried to arrange care and support for my nan, but for a long time were unable to do so. Then, late last year, I walked up her garden path to find that she was not sitting in her usual chair. I tapped gently on the window, as I always do, in order not to alarm her, and saw that she was lying on the floor. Fortunately there was a key in a safe and I was able to get into the house, where I called 999. My nan was unconscious for four days, and only after that were we able to obtain the care and support package that she needed. It should not take a stroke to secure a decent package of help and support, it should not take such a long time, and it should not be at the huge cost of the health of a partner, children or other carers.

I think it important to look at the opportunities with which Parliament will be presented in the coming weeks and months. The Care Bill will consolidate and simplify decades of social care legislation in England, and I welcome some aspects of it, but it is disappointing that the new rights that it confers will apply only to adults. I was a member of the Committee that considered the Children and Families Bill. We pressed the points about young carers, and we were given some assurances. We received the same assurances on Third Reading, but the Government have still not explained fully how young carers will be supported in the same way as adults. I should like to see the details of their amendments as soon as possible.

There are, of course, significant areas of disagreement between Government and Opposition on both those Bills, but we also welcome their positive aspects, which are due in no small measure to all the outside organisations that have helped to inform Parliament throughout the passage of the two Bills. Those organisations have contributed a huge amount, but I fear that, unless we see those amendments soon, they will have no real opportunity to contribute to the shaping of measures to help young carers.

I want to say something about social care funding, but I must be briefer than I intended to be, so that other Members can speak. I should like the Government to think about the fact that the Dilnot cap does not cover charges for carers’ services. They may say that they do not intend local authorities to charge for those services, but we must recognise that all authorities face a huge funding challenge, and charges are therefore quite possible.

As for the Welfare Reform Act 2012, the carers to whom I have spoken welcome the Government’s decision to retain carers allowance as an independent benefit rather than subsuming it in universal credit. However, there is serious concern about other aspects of the Act. Following the introduction of personal independence payments, 600,000 fewer disabled people will be entitled to support—600,000 people whom I think we should be trying to help. Moreover, 10,000 fewer carers will be entitled to carers allowance and about 5,000 will be subject to the household benefit cap, losing an average of more than £100 a week.

Two thirds of those affected by the bedroom tax are disabled, but the discretionary money set aside for councils to support disabled people would be sufficient to support only one in 10 of them. Local authorities are in a very difficult position. I have been in touch with my own council in an attempt to secure discretionary support, but it simply does not have the money to provide the help that it knows is needed.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Government constantly say that their aim is to help those who play by the rules and do the right thing. It is clear from what he and other Members have said that carers are people who do the right thing—who are motivated to do the right thing—and who play by the rules. Why should they be victimised by cruel rules that are being introduced as part of the Government’s welfare reform measures?

[Andy Sawford]

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. Some of my constituents who are affected by those measures do feel victimised. What the hon. Gentleman said about fairness is absolutely right. We all want changes to be made in a fair way, but many of my constituents—not just the disabled people and carers who are affected—recognise the unfairness of the measures. The Government should think again about many of their proposals. I urge them in particular to take account of what Members have said today about the bedroom tax.

There is much more that I could say, but I know that other Members wish to speak, so I shall end my speech.

13:26

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

I congratulate the Members who helped to secure today’s debate.

During the debate on the Queen’s Speech, I referred to the experiences of two carers in my constituency. One was Lynne Hanslow, who cares for her 96-year-old father, keeping him out of residential care. All that she asks for is a fortnight’s respite break each year, but this year, despite having given the council four months’ notice, she was denied that break and was abused by a local authority employee when she complained about her treatment. Not surprisingly, Ms Hanslow ended up having to go to her GP. A carer had been made ill by neglect and worry.

I have spoken to the council’s director of adult services, but so far Ms Hanslow has not received the full apology that she deserves, along with a promise that that will not happen again. I believe that the council’s chief executive should make the apology, thus sending the signal that he means to take the needs of carers seriously and will not stand for his staff treating them with contempt. Ms Hanslow’s experience is one of the reasons for my conclusion that statutory respite care should become a legal, enforceable right for carers. We have tried the other approaches for too long.

I also mentioned the case of Margaret McGarry. She cares for her frail elderly mother, who suffers from dementia. Her direct payments have been suspended, apparently in retaliation for her having had the temerity to go to a solicitor because she felt that the local authority was being unreasonable in terms of the flawed level of support that it was prepared to provide. There should be a much simpler independent review process for carers like Margaret McGarry who are treated in such an appalling way. The current system seems almost to be weighted in favour of officials and bureaucrats, at the expense of carers. I wonder whether the time has come for local authorities to create carers champions to look out for carers’ interests. I have come to the conclusion that local authority complaints procedures in much of the NHS these days are not about problem solving at all. They are about process. They are almost a game to create an illusion of accountability. I think we need a champion who will listen to carers’ concerns.

[Paul Burstow]

I think it is worse than that. The balance of power is entirely wrong. It is too much on the side of the local authority to which the individual is complaining. That is why we need advocacy, but it is also why we need to look at the case made in the Joint Committee report on the draft Care and Support Bill for the need for a tribunal service, to start to address these matters in a more impartial way, detached from the local authority. How can a local authority investigate itself?

[Steve McCabe]

I certainly agree with that, although I would be reluctant for us to have a complex system that the carer has more difficulty accessing. I take on board the right hon. Gentleman’s point, however.

In arguing for a champion, I am looking for someone like a councillor, with sufficient clout to intervene and right wrongs and cut through the madness and bureaucracy that all too often ends up punishing, rather than protecting, the carer. That does not mean we should not also have further review and appeal processes, but I want us to have something simple that people can make use of and that will make a difference.

A champion might also do more to make sure the voices of ordinary carers are heard. I am thinking about the hidden carers that so many Members have mentioned—the people who are too busy caring to have time to attend the consultation sessions, which are organised to suit the convenience and working hours of the NHS and local authority officials, so these people are never heard.

[Norman Lamb]

I totally agree with what the hon. Gentleman says about giving a voice to carers, who sometimes are treated appallingly, not only by providers of care, but by some of the statutory services and local authorities. With providers, we have introduced, through the NHS Choices website, the ability for people, in TripAdvisor style, to speak out and have their say about poor standards of care, and we may need to do something similar for local authorities, because there should be no hiding place when people are let down in that way.

[Steve McCabe]

I welcome what the Minister says. I am able to identify these people in my constituency, and I do not understand why it is so hard for the caring organisations to identify them.

I wonder why we do not say that at the point when an individual qualifies for attendance allowance the local authority should be notified and instructed to commence consultations with the person and their carer, with a view to establishing a long-term care plan and review strategy. That could reduce the occurrence of crisis care episodes, and the authority could simultaneously start to develop a support plan for the carer, so the needs of the carer are at the centre of the care plan.

[Paul Burstow]

The hon. Gentleman’s point about attendance allowance is interesting and important. He may know that this week the Strategic Society Centre think-tank published an interesting report setting out how this area might be reformed in a way that provides just what he has described: a front door into the social care system. Does he share my surprise that we have a system that does not talk to social care at least in part because it is entirely paper-based? It is not electronic, and perhaps the Department for Work and Pensions needs to consider putting it on that basis, so the information can be shared more freely.

[Steve McCabe]

I think I probably would agree with that, although the right hon. Gentleman must recognise that the Government are moving increasingly towards systems that do not allow for face-to-face exchange. I understand that that is one of the major disputes about what is happening in the DWP. I think it would make classic sense, however. All of us hear enough about joined-up government, and this is one area where a bit of joined-up government could save money and provide a much better service.

[Barbara Keeley]

I was at an event the other day—as was the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall)—at which somebody from the DWP was talking about this issue. They said they had tried a project to get their data to talk to the local authority’s data, but had given up because the local authorities all used different forms. That seemed to me to be appalling. The Minister might like to think about whether there could be guidance for local authorities. If local authority forms are all that is stopping this vital sharing of data, it is about time we dealt with that.

[Steve McCabe]

One of the penalties of having been a Member of this House for quite a long time is that we get fed up with hearing such excuses. We know fine well they are nonsense; if we want it to happen, we can make it happen. That is the approach we should take.

My hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) talked about older carers and carers who have been caring for older relatives, and I want to touch on one particular aspect of that. What will happen under the Government’s deferred payment equity release plans to surviving spouses who are carers, or elderly children caring for even older parents—it is not uncommon these days for a 70-year-old to be the carer for somebody who is 95 or 96, for instance? What rights will they have? In such situations, when the person who is being cared for enters residential care, what will happen to a carer whose name is not on the deeds of the house, although it may be their family home and they may well have lived there since marriage, or even childhood?

We must ensure that these carers do not end up homeless, destitute individuals with no pot of money to support them when they end up needing care themselves. I am not sure that the deferred payment scheme as currently structured takes account of the risk for those carers, and it would be the cruellest of rewards if, after a lifetime of care, we left them in this predicament.

[Norman Lamb]

At present, when someone goes into a care home and they have to sell the home to pay for care, the position of the carer could be very precarious, but the arrangements for the right to defer payment potentially provide greater stability for the carer. The hon. Gentleman raises an important point, however, and I will be happy to write to him directly about it.

[Steve McCabe]

I am grateful to hear that the Minister will look at the issue. I acknowledge that the current system is far from perfect, but interest-related deferred payments could mean more of the pot being consumed, and therefore less for the remaining carer.

13:38

[Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab)]

It is a real privilege to follow the excellent speeches made by Members on both sides of the House today. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for giving us the opportunity to debate this crucial subject, and I particularly congratulate the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) and the hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry).

One in 10 of all adults are now caring for an older or disabled person—6.5 million in total, up 600,000 from 10 years ago. The biggest increases are among those aged over 65 and those caring for more than 50 hours a week. This is a huge change in society that we all need to do more to understand and get to grips with. Our care system simply would not function without the vital support family members provide for their loved ones; as many Members have said, their financial contribution is estimated at more than £100 billion every single year. Despite that, all too often, carers go without the support they deserve and desperately need to look after the people they love. That is why today’s debate is so important.

The last Government made important progress in improving support for carers. We introduced new rights for carers, including the right, for the first time, to request flexible working. We improved information and advice, and had training programmes for carers such as the expert carers programme, the benefits of which I have seen in my own constituency through the brilliant work of CLASP, the carers centre in Leicester. We funded breaks for carers. Many Members have spoken powerfully about how important breaks are. If carers who are caring for many hours a week have a bit of a break in sight, it really helps them to carry on. We also introduced financial incentives for GP surgeries to identify carers and refer them to local councils for support. That was part of the quality and outcomes framework, which was introduced as part of the 2004 GP contract, and was the very first step in providing a specific financial incentive for GPs to identify carers.

However, as all Members have said, far, far more needs to be done. Like many Members, I have seen in my constituency and within my own family the often desperate daily struggle that is still faced by too many people who look after a loved one who is disabled, physically frail or has dementia—sometimes all three. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams), who powerfully explained her own experience of the physical and emotional demands of caring for a loved one. As she said, there are the physical demands of helping someone to get up in the mornings. Carers can be exhausted from getting up two, three or four times in the night to help someone go to the toilet, and from helping them move around the home. There are also the emotional demands. When a carer sees the person they fell in love with become frail and perhaps lose some of their pride and strength, it is terribly upsetting. If a son or daughter sees the parent who brought them up and taught them about the world—for good or for ill—begin to fade as a result of dementia, and they begin to feel as if they themselves are becoming the parent, it changes something essential in the nature of that relationship. I have always believed that relationships are essentially what make us human. If someone has dementia and begins to forget the relationships they have, it takes something away from the carer, as well. Caring for a loved one is physically and emotionally demanding. Many Members have talked about the role of public services. Health professionals are taught to understand physical and mental illness, but not necessarily the wider emotional and social issues.

I want to talk about three critical areas where we need to make progress, the first of which is identifying carers. If we do not know who they are, we will not get them the help and support they need. The second is ensuring they get the right information, advice and support from the NHS as well as social care. The third is helping carers to stay in employment, which many Members have talked about. That is particularly important as we all live longer and need to work for longer. If the public finances are to remain stable, we must do everything we can to help people in that regard. My hon. Friends the Members for Worsley and Eccles South and for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) talked about the importance of identifying carers. The hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) said that there is a great deal of awareness of carers and of the use of that term, but lots of people still do not realise they are a carer or think of themselves as such; they are simply trying to be a good daughter, son, husband or wife. Others do not ask for support because they worry that people will think they cannot cope; there is a lot of associated guilt. We need to identify these hidden carers.

There are many examples of good practice, but perhaps the best I have seen is in Torbay, where the issue of identifying carers in GPs’ surgeries and hospitals has been closely examined. If someone who has had a stroke comes in with a family member, it is recognised that that family member is likely to be a carer. A great range of support is provided. The approach taken in Torbay starts with the person who may need health care; as a result, they immediately talk about their family member.

I want to offer some practical suggestions to the Minister on how to make further progress. Will he consider amending the quality and outcomes framework? At the moment, it provides a points incentive and a financial incentive for GPs to refer carers to social care services; but why not to other health services, if carers’ health needs are so important? Secondly, will he give guidance on the best questions used to indentify carers? When I recently registered with a new GP, the leaflet provided asked, “Are you a carer?” I knew what that meant because I am familiar with the policy debate, but most people would wonder what that meant—paid carer, unpaid carer?

I spoke at the event that launched the research into attendance allowance claimants by the Strategic Society Centre and Independent Age. There are 1.3 million older and disabled people in England with very high levels of need. The research shows that 35% of attendance allowance claimants are cared for by a son or daughter, 30% by a partner, and 15% by another family member. The DWP has that information. I hope the Minister will talk to his DWP colleagues about drawing up a proper action plan.

Thirdly, I want to join my hon. Friends in pressing the Minister on what action will be taken through the draft Care and Support Bill to identify young carers. Will he update us on his meeting with the Education Minister? What is the obstacle to amending the Children and Families Bill, the draft Care and Support Bill, or both? I tell the Minister that the Opposition will table relevant amendments if the Government do not.

I turn now to improving information and advice for carers. Carers UK says that a third of those caring full time for an older disabled or seriously ill friend or relative receive no practical support, and those who do often find that services do not fit around their particular needs, especially if they are struggling to hold down a job. As many Members have said, these services still too often end up offering last-minute help and support, when families have already reached crisis point. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Andy Sawford), who talked about his nan. Before she got any support, a crisis point had already been reached. That was no good for her, and it is no good for taxpayers. More than one in five carers who have been admitted to hospital as an emergency case in the last three years say that it could have been prevented, had they been helped to look after their own health, or been given a break from caring or other forms of support. Given that money is so tight across the NHS and council care services, we have to get those up-front preventive services and support in place.

I have another practical suggestion for the Minister. As he knows, there is a brilliant national GP patient survey, run by Ipsos MORI, which provides detailed information about the needs of patients registered at a surgery. The last time I looked through it, I do not think there were any questions about whether the respondent was a family carer. It was about the needs of the individual patients, not carers. Such a question would provide us with some brilliant data that could be given back to individual surgeries as the basis from which to start developing support.

[Norman Lamb]

The GP survey is absolutely something that we can consider. If we can demonstrate how individual surgeries are performing against their responsibilities towards the whole family, and not just towards the person who is receiving medical treatment, we might well drive changes of behaviour in the surgery.

[Liz Kendall]

I am very pleased to hear that from the Minister and I will continue to follow it up with him. Including such questions in the survey would not cost any more and the data are collected by individual practice, so we would all be able to look at the GP surgery data in our own constituencies and ask what action plans were being followed. Clinical commissioning groups could be required to follow that up.

The third issue that many hon. Members have talked about is helping carers to stay in paid work. Families need the income carers get from paid work and our economy needs the skills and talents of carers. That challenge will only increase as our population ages and as more people live for longer and have to care for longer.

The biggest group of carers are people aged 50 to 65, many of whom still want and need to work. Many are women who, as hon. Members have said, are stretched at all ends. Some are looking after their children or grandchildren, or sometimes both, as well as caring for a frail partner or elderly relative and trying to hold down a job. To have one in three carers being forced to give up work or reduce their hours because the right services and support are not available does not make sense for our economy as a whole. The right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam talked about the LSE and Age UK research that shows that that is costing more than £5 billion a year in lost tax revenues and increased benefit bills.

I strongly urge the Minister to talk to his colleagues in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills about how the Government can do more to promote flexible working among family carers. We have made great progress in arguing that child care is part of our economic infrastructure, and, as the population ages, social care must be too. I believe that from cradle to grave, child care and social care must be the twin pillars of a reformed welfare state.

In conclusion, the draft Care and Support Bill is an important step forward and is very welcome. It builds on the recommendations of the Law Commission’s review into adult social care legislation, established and initiated under the previous Labour Government. Indeed, many of its recommendations were set out in our White Paper on social care, produced just before the general election. On its own, however, the Bill will not be enough.

Rights in law simply will not be delivered on the ground if the services are not available locally to make them a reality. Local council budgets for adult social care have been under pressure for many years, but they are now at crisis point as council budgets have been cut by a third under this Government. The Local Government Association says that councils have had to reduce their adult social care budgets by £2.7 billion over the past three years—that is a staggering 20%. The LGA says that

“eligibility thresholds cannot be raised much higher, 87% of councils are now at the substantial/critical threshold”.

That affects not just the statutory services, but the voluntary organisations that several hon. Members have rightly championed. Cuts from Leicestershire county council mean that CLASP carers centre in Leicester wonders whether it will even be able to survive. Many Members have talked about the important role of the voluntary sector, but without state funding many such organisations will not exist in future.

Will the Minister back calls from Opposition Ministers for £1.2 billion of this year’s NHS underspend, handed back to the Treasury in March, to be given to social care to ease the short-term funding crisis over the next two years? What representations has he made to the Chancellor on council care budgets for the spending review? Has his Department made the clear economic and social justice cases for preventing them from being slashed further? If any NHS funds are to be transferred to local councils in next week’s spending review, will they be specifically ring-fenced so that money gets through to the front line?

Ultimately, we need a bigger and bolder response to meet the needs of our ageing population and to help Britain’s carers. We need a fully integrated NHS and social care system with one budget. We should take the £15 billion spent on social care and the more than £100 billion spent on the NHS and join them together so that we get better care and better value for money for taxpayers. I believe that that is what Britain’s carers deserve.

13:55

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)]

I am grateful to the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall), for her thoughtful speech, much of which I agreed with. This has been a thoughtful debate in which many good points have been made and I thank Members for raising this very important issue. Many Members who have taken part in the debate have been long-standing advocates for carers and I welcome their interest and commitment. I completely understand why various Members constantly pursue issues such as those to do with young carers and will not accept my determination to help with that problem until it is dealt with. I accept that that is their role and it is their right to do so. The debate has been a good one and I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) for securing it, together with his colleagues, and for all the work and championing he has done over the years for carers.

Let me make a preliminary point. Some of the Opposition speeches, including that made by the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds), focused on the difficult financial circumstances for local government, the impact of welfare reforms and so on. We could have a partisan battle about the issues, condemning the Government and so on. However, the shadow Minister recognised at the start of her speech the scale of the challenge we face, not just today but in the future. The numbers of people growing older with care needs, often with multiple conditions and a mix of mental and physical health needs, just keep growing. If we are all honest, both in this Chamber and with the public outside, we must admit that any Government of any political persuasion would face this challenge.

There is no easy solution. We cannot just find a magic pot of money to throw at the problem. There is an obligation on us all, as the shadow Minister made clear, to find ways of using the money we have available much more effectively than we do. We know that there is massive waste in the system because of the care silos—between health and social care, between mental and physical health and between general practice and secondary care. There is an absolute obligation on us all to engage in a debate about using money more effectively to achieve better care and support for people and to ensure that the system remains sustainable. I want to ensure that we elevate the debate by recognising the challenges we face.

The speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) was, I think, really valuable. Ultimately, we need collaboration among statutory services, which should not abandon their responsibilities, the voluntary sector and, crucially, people—that is, the community, families, neighbours and friends. We need to unleash particularly the power of the many people who have entered retirement fit and healthy and want to give something back, but often do not know how to do so. An army of people out there are able and willing to help to meet the enormous challenges. Some of the schemes that my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth alluded to in her county are happening in many parts of the country, and they point us to a better future—a more caring future, where community strength is rebuilt.

I wish to join everyone else in this debate in paying tribute to the extraordinary work that carers do, giving of themselves; it is self-sacrifice, and they get no plaudits from anywhere else. They are just committing to helping someone they love, often doing so in challenging and troubling circumstances, particularly where dementia is concerned, as the loss of recognition can be very distressing for a loved one. We also know that many carers are themselves frail, struggling to cope on their own. My hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) mentioned the challenges in rural areas. My constituency of North Norfolk contains many elderly people who are often living in isolated communities and are struggling to get access to the services they need. We owe an enormous debt of gratitude to the work of every carer in our community. As we have identified in this debate, without carers the cost to the public purse would be enormous.

I therefore very much welcome this debate, coming, as it does, immediately after carers week. It gives us the opportunity to discuss how carers of all ages can be properly supported in their role and helped to have a better quality of life. That is what we should be focusing on: putting quality of life and well-being at the heart of the Care Bill. We should not be thinking about what service we deliver to passive recipients; we should always be thinking, “How do we make your life better? How do we make you happier in your life? What might you, as an older person, be able to offer to other people?” It should be about that, rather than about these people sensing that they have nothing more to offer and just facing dependency as they move towards the end of their life in a rather distressing way.

Carers are central to the Government’s proposals for improving care and support. The Care Bill, currently being discussed in another place, puts carers on the same footing as those for whom they care. We propose to simplify the assessment process for adult carers by extending their right to an assessment. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) made an absolute point: people need simplicity and they must not be faced with bureaucratic jungles to fight their way through. Our simplified procedures will consider the impact of caring responsibilities on the carer in order to help them to lead as independent a life as possible. We intend to remove the requirement that a carer must be providing

“a substantial amount of care on a regular basis”—

that is the test—in order to be entitled to an assessment. That will mean that many more carers—in essence, all carers—will be able to access an assessment. In addition, the Care Bill seeks to place a new duty on councils to meet carers’ eligible needs for support. Those measures will be underpinned by a Department of Health commitment to provide new resources for carer assessment and support, rising to £175 million per annum by 2020.

[Barbara Keeley]

Has the Minister really taken on board the message that has come from my colleagues in this debate, which is that assessment is not always the answer? A lot of carers do not go near local authorities and are not likely to know of, hear of or ask for an assessment. The people they are in contact with are GPs, doctors and nurses, so there must be much more onus on the NHS and its staff to undertake the task of identifying carers at the earliest stage and ensuring that they get information, advice and support.

[Norman Lamb]

The hon. Lady asks whether I have taken that message on board—I could not have missed it. I totally agree with what has been said and I am going to discuss the role of health professionals.

I know that there is a lot of concern about young carers, and it comes particularly from the hon. Lady. I said in the Queen’s Speech debate that I would meet the Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson), who has responsibility for children and families, and I have done so. I appreciate that until something concrete happens the hon. Lady will, rightly, keep pressing. I give her my assurance, again, that I understand and accept the case she is making. My hon. Friend the Minister and I are entirely clear that our joint aim is to ensure that young people are protected from having to undertake excessive and inappropriate caring responsibilities. During debates on the Children and Families Bill, he confirmed that he and I are of one mind on the need to protect young carers by using a whole-family approach to the assessment of adult care needs.

The Care Bill itself is not the place to go into the detail of how assessments should be conducted; that will be set out in regulations and statutory guidance. A whole-family approach will undoubtedly benefit children, but I am keen that it also encompasses other significant family relationships. We need to look genuinely at the whole family, whatever the relationships are between those receiving care and those giving it.

In last week’s debate, my hon. Friend the Minister confirmed that his Department will look at what it can do to remove any legal barriers preventing young carers and their families from receiving the support they need, and how we can ensure that children’s legislation works with adult legislation to support the whole family. I am clear that we have to address the concerns, and while we significantly advance the position of adult carers, we cannot leave young carers behind. The approaches do need to be different, because we need to recognise philosophically that children should not be caring inappropriately. Of course sometimes they have to do that, but we want to relieve the caring burden as far as is possible, while recognising that sometimes there will be a caring role for some.

[Liz Kendall]

Does that mean that there will be a requirement on schools, and on further and higher education bodies, specifically to identify young carers?

[Norman Lamb]

It is not my job to speak on behalf of the Department for Education, and the hon. Lady will have to be a bit more patient in waiting for further news on that subject.

Key principles to inform that work and discussion over the summer are, first, that the starting point should be assessing the needs of the adult or child who needs care and then seeing what remaining needs for support a young carer in the family has. The presence of a young carer should trigger either an assessment or the offer of an assessment to the person needing care. Secondly, a whole-family assessment is key when assessing an adult needing care where children in the family are providing care to the adult or undertaking wider family responsibilities. The adult’s assessment and eligibility for support should take into account their parenting responsibilities and the functioning of the family. Thirdly, assessments should establish why a child is caring and how to prevent—this is the crucial point—excessive or inappropriate caring responsibilities which could have an adverse impact on their education, social activities, emotional development or health. As much as possible we ought to be enabling a youngster to grow up like any other youngster can, without having inappropriate burdens on them that impact on their education and social life.

[Paul Burstow]

Will my hon. Friend confirm that the Government will be publishing amendments to give effect to this within the next week or two? Will he set out the timetable? Will the Government also address the other gap, which is the one regarding parents who are caring for disabled children? We need to make sure that none of those who have caring responsibilities get left behind.

[Norman Lamb]

I cannot give my right hon. Friend a specific time scale for what might happen—he needs to watch this space, and I am sure he will. On the question of parent carers, the view of my hon. Friend the children’s Minister is that there is sufficient provision under section 17 of the Children Act 1989 to provide for the assessment and support of disabled children and their parents. In addition, special educational needs reforms in the Children and Families Bill will give parents more choice in and control over the support they and their children receive.

[Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)]

It is a sad fact of life, though, that when a social worker visits the home of someone who needs care, they go with that client in mind. If a child in the household is caring for that adult, for example, but the social worker focuses on the adult client, all too often the social worker does not think to cross-reference the child’s needs with colleagues in the social work department.

[Norman Lamb]

I completely agree. That is why the whole-family approach is so important. When dealing with the care needs of one individual, we need to look at the impact of those care needs on the whole family.

[Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

rose—

[Norman Lamb]

I will give way, but I then need to reach the end of my speech.

[Grahame M. Morris]

I am grateful, and I compliment the Minister on his response. Does he recognise that, particularly in relation to young carers, it is quite right to place additional duties and responsibilities on local authorities, but local authorities must be given sufficient resources to discharge those additional duties and responsibilities?

[Norman Lamb]

I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman was present when I said that we need to be much smarter about how we use the money available. One of the things we need to do—I think there is a degree of agreement here—is integrate health and care. It is a crazy silo situation that we face. We are not using the money effectively. We could achieve much better support if we combined the disparate parts of the system to provide support shaped around the needs of the individual and their family.

The last spending round provided local government with a challenging settlement. That is why we decided to provide extra funding to help local authorities maintain access to services. However, local authorities ultimately have discretion over how they use their resources. Improving care and support is not simply a case of more money. Local authorities must look at how they can transform care through innovation and new ways of working. As I said earlier, collaboration with the voluntary sector is critical to this. Many local authorities are successfully integrating health and care services to improve quality, and we are developing the concept of “pioneers” to act as exemplars to support the rapid dissemination and uptake of lessons learned across the country.

Some hon. Members talked about the role of doctors and other health care workers. I agree that much more needs to be done. We can look at incentives such as the GP survey mentioned in the exchange that I had with the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Leicester West, and we have provided funding for the Royal College of General Practitioners and others to encourage GPs to think about the role of carers, but what we see from examples around the country, such as Changing Lives in Cornwall, is that once GPs start to collaborate and work as a partnership—as a team—with carers and the family, they begin to see that their burden is relieved because others can help them in the role that they have to perform. That is the essential change that it is so important to achieve.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam referred to the £400 million funding over four years for carers’ breaks. It is deeply frustrating that that has not been used as intended in all parts of the country. There are some areas, including Surrey and many others, which have done good, innovative things as a result of that. The Department asked the policy research unit in economic evaluation in health and care intervention to conduct a survey of a number of PCTs to gain their views on the benefits of NHS support for carers’ breaks. The findings will be published shortly and will help inform our understanding of what has happened. The early indications are that there may be more good things happening than we sometimes recognise, but clearly there have been significant gaps and much more needs to be done.

I appreciate that time is almost up. I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend and many others about the importance of work. I make the point again that providing help and assistance to enable people to remain in work is in employers own self-interest, as they maintain the skills in the work force while enabling that person to continue their caring responsibilities.

This has been a good debate. There has been some informed discussion and I am very grateful to hon. Members for their contributions.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

I call Paul Burstow. We have about 40 seconds.

14:14

[Paul Burstow]

In that case, I shall be very brief indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker, and simply thank all those who contributed to this debate, ask the Minister to write to all Members who have taken part in the debate about the issues that he did not have time to address, and underscore the fact that this debate recognises the invaluable work of carers and the fact that they are the backbone of our care system. Without them we would not have a health and social care system worth its name. We owe them a great debt, and as a result of that debt we must strive to do more.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the matter of carers.

East Coast Main Line Franchise

Thursday 20th June 2013 Commons Chamber

14:15

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the matter of the east coast main line franchise.

I thank the Backbench Business Committee for giving us this debate. When I spoke to the Committee in support of the debate, I acknowledged that we had a 90-minute Westminster Hall debate on the subject on 5 June which was led by my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald), but on that occasion there was great demand to speak. Many Members were limited to interventions. More importantly, there were many issues which the Minister of State, Department for Transport, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) did not address in his response. I intend to make that the focus of my speech today.

I declare a family interest in the railways. My grandfather was a railwayman and I am sure he would be delighted to see me here today speaking up for the railways. Of course, he was a railwayman in the pre-British Rail days, let alone the post-British Rail days. In fact—this will probably give away my age—he was working on the railways in the first world war in what was then a reserved occupation. He recalled being approached occasionally by people with white feathers because he was not fighting. He worked in the railways after the war when it became British Rail, and as a long-term railwayman he would have been proud to see British Rail and to see that the railways are still such an important element in our transport system. At various times in the past 50 or 60 years there have been suggestions that railways were the past and we would move beyond railways, but here in the 21st century it is true to say that railways are back as a hugely important part of our future, not just of our nostalgic past. It is therefore particularly important that we get it right for the next 50 years.

The other interest that I have to declare is as a frequent traveller on the east coast main line, spending nearly 10 hours a week travelling on that line when Parliament is sitting. Since I started that regular commute, I have been extremely impressed with the service provided by the current operator. That is not to say that it is perfect. I do not think any provider would have been able to tackle, for instance, the day that the line was completely flooded north of Newcastle, when I ended up having to spend the night in Newcastle. I do not believe that even a private operator could have held back the waves of water that fell on the Newcastle area that night, and I know that several Members present experienced that personally.

I was perplexed when, following the fiasco of the west coast main line refranchising, the Government’s new schedule of competitions prioritised getting East Coast out of the door by February 2015, three months before the next general election. Some cynics have suggested that what motivated that proposal and the timing of it was the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle), our shadow spokesperson on transport, had been raising the issue and challenging the Government on the proposals, given what had happened with the west coast main line. The next thing we heard was that the Government were to refranchise East Coast within a very short time scale. That was to be done at the expense of giving extensions to two other long-distance operators—Virgin on the west coast and First on Great Western—because the investigation into the franchising fiasco suggested that not more than one main line franchise should be dealt with at one time. Even on that basis, though, why the east coast line and not one of the other lines? It makes no sense to reprivatise a successful public sector operator while neglecting the other services.

[Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)]

I am following the hon. Lady’s speech with great interest, but I always think it better to focus on cock-up in politics, rather than conspiracy. In that respect, would she like to explain why, on 21 January 2010, under a Labour Government, the Department for Transport consultation on franchising made a commitment from her party to reprivatise the east coast main line?

[Sheila Gilmore]

I am glad the hon. Gentleman made that intervention, because it enables me to say that one of the most important things for all of us in politics is to experience, to look at the evidence, to learn and to come to a view based on that evidence. No doubt he would be interested to read an article published in The Northern Echo today in which Lord Adonis is reported as saying that, on the basis of that experience, his view is that the line should not be refranchised. If we could not learn from our experience and change our politics, it would be a sad thing indeed. I hope that, having heard that people who previously held that view have changed their mind, the present Government will be prepared to follow suit.

[Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)]

As I happen to have the article from The Northern Echo in my hand, it might help if I read out what Lord Adonis says:

“In the last four years, East Coast has established itself as one of the best train operating companies in the country, both operationally and commercially.

This has fundamentally changed the situation and it is right and proper that East Coast should be allowed to continue as a public sector comparator to the existing private franchises.”

[Sheila Gilmore]

I thank my hon. Friend for clarifying the position. Perhaps for the rest of this debate, unlike the one in Westminster Hall, we will concentrate on the main issues before us and the reasons why the Government made the decision they have.

In the Westminster Hall debate, a number of hon. Members questioned the Minister’s claim that East Coast’s performance had plateaued, noting the remarks the right hon. Gentleman made to the Select Committee on Transport on 24 April:

“If you look at the latest monthly figures for reliability and punctuality, it is the worst of the 19 franchises.”

That struck me as odd, because in my experience East Coast trains are, more often than not, on time. That was borne out in the debate, in which many speakers pointed out that the Minister was quoting figures from a narrow four-week period in which bad weather had caused flooding and brought down overhead wires. East Coast is powerless to prevent such incidents, and responsibility for subsequent delays lies with the infrastructure manager, Network Rail. In fact, according to the moving annual average punctuality figures, which offer a more balanced picture, East Coast is in the top three of the seven long-distance franchises.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend and neighbour and those who signed the motion on securing the debate. Is it not worth pointing out that, over the decades, a consistent cause of delays has been problems with the overhead wires? Is she aware that one of the main reasons those problems have arisen is that, back in the ’80s when the line was electrified under the previous Conservative Government, the overhead wires system was installed on the cheap? Ever since, we have suffered problems precisely because they did not do the good job they ought to have done.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Indeed. I am not saying, and I do not think any Opposition Member would say, that there is nothing that needs to be improved. Track and rolling stock can always be improved, and the current state of the track and overhead cables is a problem, but I would argue that it would be a problem for any operator. That is not what lies behind the Government’s proposal.

There is also the question of the premium payments. Again, I quote the Minister, this time at Transport questions on 25 April, when he said that

“the premium that the east coast main line pays to the Treasury is less than that paid by the west coast main line.”—[Official Report, 25 April 2013; Vol. 561, c. 995.]

In fact, a recent report from the Office of Rail Regulation suggests that, in 2011-12, the Government received £156 million in net franchise payments from the operator of the west coast main line and £177 million from East Coast—the opposite of what the Minister asserted.

[Mr Stewart Jackson]

The hon. Lady is making a typically eloquent speech, but does she not agree that it is apposite to mention, in the spirit of fairness and transparency, that the track access charges for National Express were significantly higher—£210 million, I understand, rather than the £92 million now charged to the operator?

[Sheila Gilmore]

I think the important thing to bear in mind is that the service is not failing in the ways the Minister said it was. If a Government propose a policy, it has to be based on the right evidence and not on an inaccurate interpretation of the situation.

Let me now talk about what East Coast does with its profits. In the previous debate, my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough pointed out that whereas private operators are obliged to pay dividends, public operators can reinvest all their profits back into the service, which in East Coast’s case has amounted to more than £40 million since 2009. One of the criticisms that has been made in the past and might still be levelled now at a public operator is that, because the dead hand of bureaucracy lies on it, such an operator cannot be as efficient and as fleet of foot as a private sector operator, but it is true to say that East Coast is organisationally distinct from the Department for Transport. It is staffed by railway professionals and is therefore able to take the best of a private sector company in terms of efficiency, innovation and entrepreneurialism, but because it is in the public sector, any profits it makes are available to the Treasury and all of us as citizens of this country and taxpayers.

I am concerned that talking down East Coast to justify the proposed refranchising will damage morale at the company. That is most unfair, because staff and management have worked extremely hard and achieved good results, with 1 million extra passengers carried in 2012 compared with 2009 and record passenger satisfaction. I hope that, when he responds to the debate, the Minister will correct his remarks on punctuality and premium payments; acknowledge that East Coast reinvests all its profits and can emulate private sector efficiency; and congratulate staff and management on East Coast’s success. I think that that will be an important message to send back to the work force.

Given East Coast’s success, it makes no sense to prioritise its reprivatisation while other long-distance operators are being offered long extensions. Under the Government’s initial franchising timetable, the new west coast main line contract was due to start in October 2012. Under the new timetable, and as a result of prioritising East Coast, the current operator of the west coast main line, Virgin, will be offered a total of four and half years of extensions up to April 2017. Similarly, for the new Great Western contract, which was meant to start in April this year, the operator, First Group, is being offered three years of extensions up to July 2016.

Let us look again at another reason the Minister gave for prioritising the east coast main line over others. He said that the line

“connects industries in the north with commerce in the south, provides cross-border services to Scotland and helps to drive the development of tourism and the success of Edinburgh and Leeds as key financial centres outside London. That is why it is at the forefront of our new rail franchising programme”.—[Official Report, 5 June 2013; Vol. 563, c. 252WH.]

I accept all those things, although many of them can be said about other rail lines.

It is important for business that we have a good, strong railway service on the east coast main line. I am regularly accompanied on my weekly commute by an increasing number of business travellers, many of whom work in my city’s sizeable banking sector. Those people have often been attracted away from short-haul flights by East Coast’s excellent new first class offer, which in the long term could benefit our environment. Business travellers are also attracted by the new services that have been introduced, including a later evening service and an earlier morning service, which enable people who want, or have, to travel to London for business meetings to do so by rail in a way that was not possible before.

However, the west coast main line and the Great Western line are also important for business. The west coast main line connects five of the seven largest conurbations in Britain, and Great Western serves Bristol, Cardiff and the prosperous Thames valley, so the claim that the Government have decided to prioritise the east coast main line because of its importance to business does not really stack up—at least, it is not a reason for prioritising the east coast main line over the other services that were previously due for refranchising.

By deferring proper franchise competition on these other lines in favour of extensions, the damage done to business on those routes could well outweigh any benefit accrued by prioritising the reprivatisation of the east coast main line, because extending those franchises involves little or no competition. It is likely to cost franchises a lot while failing to deliver any improvements in service.

It also leaves the Government in a weak bargaining position with the franchise operators by offering them those franchises without competition. After all, one of the reasons the Government would no doubt give for wanting to franchise is to have competition that would drive innovation and improvement. However, as far as the other lines are concerned, it is more or less a case of giving the operators an extension.

The only bargaining chip that the Government appear to have is to call in East Coast’s parent company, Directly Operated Railways, presumably as some kind of threat to the franchise operator, so that if it does not settle for a reasonable sum the line might be given over to Directly Operated Railways. That seems rather odd, from a Government who are telling us that they do not want rail lines to be operated in that way.

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

I have been listening carefully to the hon. Lady’s argument, but I am afraid that I have lost the thread a bit. Will she clarify whether she is opposed to the refranchising of the east coast main line in principle, or does she simply want it to be held back for a certain length of time so that other franchises can be retendered, which is what she seems to be arguing for?

[Sheila Gilmore]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. We did say that the hon. Lady would speak for 10 to 15 minutes, but she has now been going for 19, and it looks like she still has a ream of paper to get through. I feel sure that she will be coming to the end shortly.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

I would certainly argue for keeping East Coast in public ownership. The point I am trying to make is that even in terms of the Government’s justification for what they are doing and their timetable, it does not make financial sense. Therefore, it will not make financial sense for the effectiveness of this country’s railways, or indeed for our financial position. That is an important point. It raises the question of why the east coast main line is being refranchised at this point.

If the Government’s decision had been based purely on a view that East Coast had been performing badly in the public sector, which I know has been said—I hope I have show that it is not the case—it might have been an imperative for turning East Coast around, but that is not the point. I think that we have to ask, yet again, why this is happening. Why should we take a service that is performing well and put it out to franchise, with all the disruption that will cause, and potentially for no gain?

I hope that the Minister will address some of the key points that I have already raised but that were not fully addressed the last time we debated it—punctuality, premium payment and the success of East Coast—because I am sure that he would not want to be accused of putting ideology ahead of the interests of passengers and taxpayers.

14:36

[Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)]

I speak not only as the representative of the fine railway town of Peterborough, but as a member of the Public Accounts Committee, which has looked at different aspects of rail travel in recent years, including most recently the west coast main line franchising process, and as a commuter. Like the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), I travel frequently, although I am not always as familiar with the timetables as I should be. One Wednesday a few weeks ago I was running very fast through the brand spanking new, recently refurbished King’s Cross station in order to catch the 8 o’clock train. I clambered on board only to find after it departed that it was a fast service to York. I passed various Labour MPs in first class, while holding my standard ticket in hand, and then saw my hon. Friend the Member for York Outer (Julian Sturdy). He asked what I was going to do, and I said I would have to get off at York and go back to Peterborough. With typical sympathy and pithy Yorkshire wit, he said, “I hope you’ve written to me to say you’re going to be in my constituency”—although I think it was probably the constituency of the hon. Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley) that I was visiting.

This debate gives us an opportunity to look specifically at the major infrastructure challenges facing the east coast main line. I will focus not on a sterile argument about private being bad and public being good, but on the challenges and opportunities we face in looking at public policy on that line. In the past 10 years we have seen a 43% rise in passenger demand. By 2031 there will be a capacity gap of 1,500 seats in the busiest morning hour on suburban services into King’s Cross. Indeed, journeys from Peterborough and Cambridge are expected to rise by as much as 20% by 2016. I think it is fair to say that, irrespective of our party or our views on the debate about rail privatisation, we all have a common interest, on behalf of our constituents who commute, whether from Scotland, Yorkshire or Cambridgeshire, in safer, cleaner and more punctual trains and in value for money.

It would be unfair and churlish not to concede the progress we have seen in Peterborough. New work has begun and is due to be completed next year. We have three new platforms and platform extensions for the new Thameslink trains and the new inter-city trains. We have a new island platform and a new freight loop. The station has been remodelled over the past few years, and we have 150 new, safe and secure cycle racks to help to develop Peterborough as a local transport infrastructure hub.

It is vital that I make the point that Peterborough is dependent on the railway. Indeed, it is integral to the financial and economic viability of my constituency, given that it is 47 minutes away from central London and King’s Cross. I was delighted to welcome the Minister to Peterborough station last autumn to open, with Network Rail, the reconfigured, remodelled station.

We have to concentrate on value for money, which is a very important issue in the private-public debate. An East Coast train season ticket costs my constituents £6,888 a year—£7,472 with a travel card—which is about 25% of the average annual salary in Peterborough. A First Capital Connect season ticket costs £5,800 a year and £7,000 with a travel card.

Putting partisanship aside, the current provider of the service has done a good job, and I think that the Minister and the Secretary of State have conceded as much. It would be unfair not to concede that it has returned £640 million to the Exchequer by way of premiums since 2009—£187 million in the last financial year. The staff on East Coast trains at Peterborough do a superb job and I know many of them. They are hard-working, decent people with a public sector ethos and a commitment to doing a very good job. I am very proud that we have people who do that, even when the things that go wrong are not their fault, but that of Network Rail. They always smile and try to explain what has happened.

Nevertheless, the situation is not perfect. It is only fair to say that East Coast is the worst performing train company in terms of punctuality. [Hon. Members: “No!] It is true. Only 82.8% of East Coast services arrived on time in the period up to 31 March 2013, compared with 97% of services provided by c2c, which is owned by National Express and is the best performing train operating company. Hon. Members may groan, but those are the facts and we have to agree on them in order to improve the service.

[Hugh Bayley]

The hon. Gentleman will know that the Government’s official timing period does not pick one month or two months as he has done, but considers the situation over one year, and over one year East Coast has performed substantially better than the operator on the west coast, which is the best comparator.

[Mr Jackson]

I think that is semantics. I made it clear that I was talking about the 12 months to 31 March 2013. If the hon. Gentleman wants to write to me to take issue with me, that is fine.

[Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Jackson]

No, I want to make some progress, but I will give way later to the hon. Gentleman, whom I know has a special interest in the subject.

The Labour Government accepted that public service provision by this train operating company was always going to be a short-term expedient because of a special set of circumstances on the east coast main line. As the Minister has said, in order to leverage key, private sector capital, it is important that we have a new, long-term private partner to innovate and drive up standards on the east coast main line.

It is all very well for Lord Adonis to have a road-to-Damascus conversion. Obviously, being in opposition concentrates one’s mind, but when he was a Minister he spoke out strongly for private sector provision on this particular line. I challenge the Labour party: is its policy now wholesale renationalisation of the railways, or is that just for the east coast main line? I know that the hon. Member for Blyth Valley (Mr Campbell) would definitely give me a clear answer, but I am not sure that he and the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) would have a meeting of minds on the issue.

[Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman is being generous in giving way. Although he is ridiculing us on the Labour Benches for supporting the concept of public ownership, most of the travelling public—70% of them—and even those of them who vote Conservative, support the idea of renationalising the railway industry.

[Mr Jackson]

If it is such a popular idea, why has the hon. Gentleman’s party not put it in its manifesto? Why in 13 years did it not repeal the Railways Act 1993 and go back to the good old days of British Rail, which did not get us to our destination very often or on time?

[Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Jackson]

Let me make some progress and I will give way to the hon. Gentleman shortly.

The Labour party has to bear some responsibility for the series of events that culminated in the current situation. As in so many areas, this Government are having to tackle that legacy. The Labour Government should have been more flexible with Sea Containers and Great North Eastern Railway, which was a very popular provider: it had good staff, good management and was well liked. Obviously, it was undermined—this was out of its control—by the parlous financial situation of Sea Containers, but the previous Labour Government was pretty inflexible and allowed National Express to overbid hugely and deliver a poor level of service. I think that the National Express management team is pretty hopeless. In fairness, the Labour Government did not have much chance or choice to do anything differently at that stage. Nevertheless, unless Labour gives an unambiguous commitment to renationalisation across the network, old Labour hon. Gentlemen will be whistling in the wind.

[Ian Mearns]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Jackson]

No, I must make some progress, because Mr Deputy Speaker will reproach me otherwise.

It is worth mentioning that, in terms of premium, National Express paid £338 million to the Treasury between 2007 and 2010. It was not a basket case. It ran into difficulties as a direct result of the economic crisis and the less than benign economic circumstances, but it did pay in. As I have already told the hon. Member for Edinburgh East, the track access charges were significantly higher for National Express than they are for the current company.

I welcome the improvements in control period 4, which covers 2009 to 2014, including the new platform 0 at King’s Cross, the junction remodelling and in particular the removal of the major bottlenecks between Huntingdon and Peterborough and the overall budget of £240 million. I think we all welcome the new inter-city express trains, extra seats and the replacement of the slam-door rolling stock, which will come on stream in due course.

I am a fair-minded person, so I will admit that there have been mistakes in the franchising process. I challenged the Secretary of State about this in Transport questions a few months ago and the Public Accounts Committee looked at the issue, specifically on the west coast main line, in February and identified some key things. There was a failure to follow due procedures and, essentially, a failure of culture. There were Chinese walls between the permanent secretary and the franchise and procurement teams, which seemed strange and is unusual in the civil service. There was also a failure of oversight, with no one person being in charge of oversight and having responsibility for the franchising process from beginning to end.

In July 2011, the Public Accounts Committee published a report on Network Rail. Network Rail is an integral part of any debate about the east coast main line and its future. The Committee found that Network Rail was still less efficient than comparator organisations in Europe, but it did not know why. The Committee also found that the system of penalties and bonuses that were meant to drive improvements in efficiency were not doing so. Because it is an overly complex industry, the risk of poor value for money and inefficiency is endemic. Those were the key lessons of the PAC report.

There is a need to impose clear objectives on train operating companies to avoid overcrowding, or bear the costs of overcrowding. I am not convinced that the Department for Transport has addressed that important issue adequately. We need more clarity on the link between fares and new passenger places and on the balance of costs between the taxpayer and the passenger.

In its contribution to the debate about franchising, through the Brown report and the McNulty report, Passenger Focus has suggested some simple things that would improve the passenger experience, including right time performance information; better ticket information; making restrictions simpler and more apparent on ticket machines; and having performance indicators for the line of route and not just for the franchise as a whole. Those are simple things, but they would make the experience of our constituents who travel to the north of England, Scotland or London much better.

I will finish my remarks by talking a little about competition and open access. I welcome the consultation paper that was published this month, “On-rail competition: Consultation on options for change in open access”. Open access is an important issue that we need to look at. The east coast main line is a good example of open access. It has brought significant benefits to parts of the network. Only a small part of the passenger rail network is open to competitive pressures. On the east coast main line, two non-subsidised open access operators, Grand Central Trains and First Hull Trains, compete with the franchiser. They have shown that competition leads to more journeys, higher revenues for the train companies, lower fares, and more and happier passengers.

The Centre for Policy Studies publication in March showed that passenger journeys increased by 42% at stations that enjoy rail competition, compared with 27% at those without it; that revenue increased by 57% at those with competition, against 48% at those without it; and that average fares increased by only 11% at stations with competition, compared with 17% at stations without it. So the franchise holder faces competition and still pays an increased premium to the Government, as East Coast has done. Open access competition has led to more routes and more high-speed access to new locations, including in London.

As a one nation Conservative—I suppose we are all one nation now, whether one nation Labour or one nation Conservative—I think that it is important that we have good transport infrastructure to places such as Sunderland, Hartlepool, Halifax, Hull and Bradford. All those places have seen a significant boost to their economic footprint and their direct access to markets. In the course of the public consultation on open access, we need to consider the benefits to local economies and, ultimately, to the taxpayer. Hitherto, the Office of Rail Regulation and the Department for Transport have set their face against open access and have been inflexible in the design of the franchise regime.

In conclusion, 20 years on from the Railways Act 1993, I believe that privatisation has been a success. Labour will not reverse it in government if it wins the next general election. The review of the franchise regime gives the industry an opportunity to facilitate more competition, more investment in our railways, more choice, and greater value for money and efficiency for our constituents. Ministers should seize this chance while they can.

14:54

[Mr Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab)]

I understand there was a good debate in Westminster Hall—it is a pity I missed it. I had to be away, but I am here today, and if the Minister cannot understand Geordie I will try to speak in plain English—he does not seem to be listening to anybody on the Geordie side anyway. I will be very slow so that he can understand exactly what I am saying.

My hon. Friend—he is a friend of mine and I have known him for a long time in the House—the Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) made some valid points at the beginning of his contribution, but he got a bit sluggish. I want to get to the bones of the issue. I will not go on, because I know other Members want to speak, but we must get to the bones of this, and we have to know why.

If we look back, Great North Eastern Railway was a good firm; it tried but got unstuck with that container thing and there was a bit of a mess, but in all fairness it walked away, threw the keys on the line and another private company went off the rails with the north east rail link. Then we had National Express, which was hopeless. It should have stuck with what it is good at, although I do not think it is very good at driving buses either. It came in and made a right mess of things.

All we have to do—I do not know whether the Minister knows this, but we do—is talk to the workers on the trains. They will say which the bad company was: National Express. The workers are happy now. Last week they told me that they are happy with the not-for-profit system. I will not say nationalisation—I wouldn’t dare!—it is a not-for-profit company. They are happy. I said, “Don’t say that. If the Minister hears you’re happy, that’ll be the excuse he wants to privatise it. You canna have workers being happy, can we? Even the management is happy, and we canna have them being happy neither.” So I told the workers not to say they were happy too regularly, as that will be an excuse for the Tories to do it in—[Interruption.] The Minister may laugh, but let us put the facts down. National Express lost the taxpayer £55 million. I am not sure of the figure for GNER, but I am sure it was some—I do not know what it was, but it was taxpayers’ money.

Week after week I hear the Tories come to the Dispatch Box and start talking about how they are the custodians of the taxpayer. “We believe in the taxpayer. We are here to save them money.” Well, I have to laugh. We now have a not-for-profit company that has made the taxpayer £600 million in four years and invested £40 million in itself. What is wrong with making a profit and putting it back into the Treasury coffers for the taxpayer? The Government are the custodians of the taxpayer and are saving them money by cutting welfare, hospitals, legal aid and everything else—that is what they tell everybody in the newspapers and on television. The Government are saving the taxpayer. There are also the tax alliance people, the hidden people, who I think are backed by the Tories—the tax alliance party, or whatever it is. [Hon. Members: “The TaxPayers Alliance”] The TaxPayers Alliance. I have not heard a squeak out of it yet. I have never heard it say, “Oh wait a minute. The taxpayer is getting money back, and the Treasury fund this company. This must be good for taxpayers.” No, it is keeping very quiet. I wonder why.

My second point is about why we want to privatise a not-for-profit company that is doing very well. I have an idea—actually, I have a few ideas. My mind works in funny ways. I know the Tory party slush bucket is going around somewhere and I wonder who is contributing to it. I would like to try to find out, get my sniffer dogs on it and look to see who is putting into the Tory slush bucket. We will find out later, when the names come out, who will get the franchise—[Interruption.] Well, I will put my money on now, and I bet it is Goody Two-Shoes. I bet he gets the franchise.

Hon. Members: “Who’s Goody Two-Shoes?” He’s Branson, that’s who. He’ll be the man who puts the money in the slush bucket, and he’ll be the man who the Tories get to run north-east rail. That is a fact, and I hope that people will remember what I have said.

As I have said before, the company has contributed £600 million to the taxpayer, to the Treasury. Its subsidy from the taxpayer was 1% for various items and things it did on the east coast main line, as against the west coast main line, which gets a subsidy of 37%. Hon. Members can see the difference, and perhaps they can see why Branson might have an eye on the east coast main line, because although he made a mess of the west coast main line, the Tories made a mess of the franchise for him, so they had to give it to him again. He will have his eye on this company and he will want to run it to get that money.

When something is privatised, the money has got to go somewhere. The company makes money. It has shown how to run a rail link, and it has shown companies how to do it, and I am sure Branson knows that, and he will be saying, “Ooh, there’s £600 million. My shareholders are going to be very happy. Instead of that money going to the Treasury, it could go to the shareholders in business.” I can see how he is thinking and I can see how the Tories are thinking. They are saying, “Hey, we’ve got a company here making money for the taxpayer. It should be the shareholders getting the dividends and the managers getting massive bonuses.” I can see them coming in with their massive bonuses and the money just draining away, and they’ll most probably throw the keys on the line again and say, “Sorry, we’ve made a mess of this. We took too much money out. You’ll have to get the taxpayer to bail it out again, with another not-for-profit company.” I expect that to happen in a few years. I’ll most probably not be here, but never mind—I’ll be watching from my granddad seat.

The Minister has got to be listening carefully to what the people are saying. This is important. We hear what they are saying, and they are saying they want the company to remain as it is. They are satisfied with the line. I travel on it every week, like most other Members from the north-east of England and Scotland, and it is a very good line. It is always on time. Very rarely, there will be a couple of minutes here, a couple of minutes there, and of course sometimes something happens on the line, as happens on all rail lines—a tree might fall down or a line might go down. It happens from time to time. Those things cannot be helped. But what is more important is that the workers are very happy, the company is doing well and contributing, and I think it is an absolute disgrace if we give this back to the private entrepreneurs, who, let’s face it, made a mess of it in the first place.

15:02

[Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)]

A couple of weeks ago at Transport Question Time I asked about the timetable for the re-letting of the franchise, and I received a clear, extremely positive answer. I was told it would not be long before the franchise was let again.

I want to talk about two areas: public—or not public—ownership, and the franchise itself. Perhaps unusually among my colleagues, I was against the privatisation of our railways, not because I had a fond memory of British Rail. I used to catch the train to school in Bradford every day, and it was not a pleasant experience. Parts of British Rail were good, but parts of it were not, and overall the customer experience was poor. I remember an advertising campaign at the time saying, “We’re getting there.” It was launched to general ridicule from the public, who obviously knew better. It was not because I thought there was an important principle between public and private ownership. Across the world, we can see examples of successful railways in both public and private ownership. I simply thought it would be hard to bring in effective competition.

When it came to managing our railways, there was a sense that we were managing decline, and in many ways of course we were: customers were choosing other modes of travel. I have checked the data on this. I am sure the Minister will be aware, but I might take the opportunity to remind him that when our railways were nationalised—I am talking not about one year’s or one month’s comparison, but about decades of data—more than 1,200 million annual journeys were made each year, and by the time of privatisation, that figure had declined steadily, year on year, to 700 million. There were a series of huge declines and the data were bad, however we look at them.

I changed my mind about rail privatisation for two reasons, the first being passenger growth. Again, it is slightly geeky, but I will remind the Minister of the data. Since privatisation, passenger numbers have gone from 700 million to 1,300 million-plus, which is a fantastic change. Level of usage on the rail network is now comparable with that in the 1920s. Privatisation saw a change of decades of usage, which was a good thing. I want to encourage more use of public transport, with more freight off the roads. The second reason I changed my mind was personal experience. While travelling around the country, I could see a steady change of attitude in the businesses towards being more focused on their customers—improving customer experience and developing new services and timetables. The customer became more central to the industry.

I agree with many of the comments made by hon. Members on both sides of the House about the quality and friendliness of the East Coast staff, which is absolutely first class. I use it, as I am sure do all the speakers in this debate.

[Grahame M. Morris]

You don’t use first class, though, do you?

[Andrew Jones]

No, I do not use first class—the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Extreme caution is required for any Member using first class, and I do not risk it.

The question is not whether the line should be in private or public ownership; it is about getting the franchise right. I want to see the franchise taken forward promptly, with customers right at the heart of the railway. That means listening to what they want and responding to it. For my own area, in the past three years we have seen the first direct London to Harrogate service for 30 years. I remind the House that this service was removed under nationalisation, alongside the downgrading of services for Hull, Bradford, Cleethorpes and Teesside. The new service is fantastic. Our area has an important visitor economy and is hosting part of the Tour de France next year.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

I might be wrong, but is the service to Harrogate not an East Coast rail service? Does that not show that the operator is able to be flexible and respond to customer demand and passenger needs?

[Andrew Jones]

Of course it is an East Coast service. In some ways the operator has responded and I am quite happy to reflect that. I just think that more can be done and the hon. Gentleman’s comment does not really address why our railways saw such a dramatic turnaround after privatisation. Opposition Members have had no comments whatever to make about how we have had decades and decades of decline in passenger numbers. Privatisation occurred and the situation changed utterly. I am sure the Minister has noticed that no Opposition Member has said a word about the change in passenger numbers from the mid-1990s onwards.

I would like to see the new franchise introduce more services for Harrogate. I am sure that representations will be made nearer the time. Flexibility will need to be built in so that we can allow the operator, whoever wins the franchise, to respond to demand. I hope there will be new rolling stock, as some of the trains on the service are from the 1970s, and line investment. It is worth noting that new rolling stock and line investment would change the cost base of the franchise, and start to change some of the numbers that Opposition Members have been keen to quote this afternoon. I urge the Minister to press on, because that will mean more innovation and more success for our industry.

15:09

[Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)]

Let me start by saying something that I think everybody in the Chamber will agree with. The east coast main line is an absolutely vital economic artery, pumping the lifeblood of our economy—jobs, investment and growth—through all the regions and cities that it serves from London to Edinburgh. That is why this debate is so important. It is not a technical or ideological debate about how the service should be run; it is a debate about how the railways can assist economic recovery in our regions. That is the question we need to debate today.

We had a similar debate in Westminster Hall two weeks ago, in which many hon. Members spoke. I have some sympathy for the Minister: he was left with absolutely no time to respond to the many questions that were asked. However, we have more time today. To recap briefly, I would like to pose two questions that I posed a fortnight ago to which the Minister was unable to respond.

First, if the Government go ahead with refranchising, will the headquarters of the new service be based in York? The headquarters currently provide over 200 jobs, but they act as a sheet anchor for thousands of other jobs with railway engineering companies, suppliers and for Network Rail’s operation of the east coast main line, which employs more people than the train operating company. The Government are legally able to make that a condition of the franchise and there is a precedent. When the train operating company last changed hands, I asked my right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), the then Minister, whether he would give a commitment to ensure stability by keeping the headquarters in York. He said:

“The headquarters to which my hon. Friend referred are in York. I can reassure him that when the holding company”—

that is, East Coast—

“takes over the running of the contract later on this year, the headquarters will stay in York.”—[Official Report, 1 July 2009; Vol. 495, c. 431.]

For the sake of stability for the business now at a time of economic fragility, will the current Minister make a similar commitment?

Secondly, I asked the Minister whether the Government will do what they say they will do and consult users of the service about what they want. It was reported in Modern Railways in May that the Department for Transport would take into account passengers’ views in relation to the train operating companies. Will the Department therefore commission an independent body to conduct a survey to see whether passengers want the service to be taken away from East Coast? A number of Members on both sides of the House have talked about the performance of East Coast, praising the company. We know that it has returned more money to the Government in premium payments—more than £540 million so far—than any other franchise holder on the line. We also know that it is more efficient than its predecessor and is providing value for money for the Government and the taxpayer.

The hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) is a fair-minded man. He and I should sit down together and look at the statistics. However, to quote Alan Whitehouse, a former BBC transport correspondent, on the official measure of punctuality—the percentage of trains that reach their destination less than 10 minutes late over the period of a year—the east coast main line under East Coast’s management did better than the west coast main line under Virgin’s management. If we compare the two in terms of trains that actually arrive on time—that is to say, less than 60 seconds late—East Coast scores 61% for punctuality, whereas Virgin on the west coast main line scores 49%.

[Mr Stewart Jackson]

I had no wish to cast aspersions on the current operators, but the hon. Gentleman knows that Passenger Focus, for instance, said in response to the Brown review of franchising last year that the determinants of punctuality were too loose and should be tightened up anyway. However, I concede that there are extraneous circumstances under the auspices of Network Rail that affect performance—such as the gentleman on a bridge at Walton in Peterborough last night who detained me by half an hour.

[Hugh Bayley]

It is useful that the hon. Gentleman says that we should listen to Passenger Focus, because it currently gives the East Coast service the highest level of satisfaction that it has received since Passenger Focus starting doing its surveys in 1999.

[Ian Mearns]

The hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) has just highlighted one of the problems that franchise holders like East Coast face. They are reliant on Network Rail and on the infrastructure if their trains are to run on time. Extraneous issues—including, unfortunately, people trying to commit suicide—are completely beyond their control. Having said that, they do very well in spite of all that.

[Hugh Bayley]

My hon. Friend makes a good point.

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

rose—

[Hugh Bayley]

Our speeches are time limited and we get no injury time for interventions, so I must make some progress.

The good performance that East Coast has achieved is all the more surprising because it has not been given the security of tenure of a 10 to 15-year franchise that the comparator company on the west coast has. In fact, East Coast has not really known from one month to the next where it stands or whether it will continue to run the service or not. Last year, the Department for Transport asked the chief executive of East Coast, Karen Boswell, to prepare a five-year plan for the future of her company. She submitted that plan in January this year. In March, an interview with Karen Boswell by Roger Ford was published in Modern Railways, in which she set out her plans, and there was no hint of privatisation at that point. So what has changed?

Franchising is not a low-cost option. The National Audit Office report on the east coast National Express failure estimated that that had cost the Department for Transport between £330 million and £380 million. The Department had expected to receive that money from the franchisee up to 2012 but had not done so. The funds then had to be recovered from other Department for Transport budgets. The aborted west coast main line franchising exercise cost the taxpayer £55 million. Alan Whitehouse, the former BBC transport correspondent, estimates that each one of those bidding for a major franchise such as these spends between £10 million and £13 million in pursuit of its bid. Those costs ultimately come back to the passengers in the form of higher fares.

Two weeks ago, in the debate in Westminster Hall, I argued that East Coast should continue to run the service, not indefinitely but for the period of a full franchise, so that it could be an effective public sector comparator. We have seen today in The Northern Echo that Lord Adonis, who was Secretary of State in 2009 when East Coast was given the job of rescuing the service, shares that view. It is of course consistent with what he said in 2009, which was that the service should be run by a public sector contractor, East Coast, but not indefinitely. I am not arguing for an indefinite arrangement; I am asking for a period equivalent to a private franchise so that we can compare like with like. That is still my view.

I have been thinking about the matter further, however, and I put it to the Minister that we already have a public sector comparator. By the end of this financial year, East Coast will have run the service for four years, returned about £800 million to the Treasury and provided an improved service. If the Government are hellbent on refranchising, will they commission an independent body—perhaps the National Audit Office—to analyse the bids that they receive and compare them with East Coast’s performance? If none of the bidders that responds to the Minister’s tendering exercise can produce a robust case to show that it can deliver a better and safer service with lower fares and a bigger financial return to the Government than East Coast is currently providing, he should keep the service with East Coast.

The Government seem to be hellbent on refranchising, but we know that refranchising against a short timetable is unwise, to say the least. The Laidlaw inquiry, which looked into the fiasco of the collapsed west coast main line franchising process, came up with this recommendation:

“I recommend that the Department for Transport ensures that a credible timeline, with reference to the complexity of the procurement involved, is assessed and agreed at the inception”,

and he argued that this timeline should provide time for contingencies, and for comprehensive quality and commercial reviews. The Brown report, a rather wider one on the franchising system, which was also commissioned following the west coast collapse, proposed a detailed 24-month timeline for running a franchising process.

Let us look at what happened with the west coast franchising process—the rushed, bungled and failed west coast franchising process. The invitation to tender was put out in May 2011. The franchise was awarded to FirstGroup in August 2012—15 months later—with a view to starting the service in December 2012, 19 months later. Both Laidlaw and Brown said it was too short a timetable.

What, then, are the Government proposing for the east coast main line franchise? They intend to put a notice in the Official Journal of the European Union, which I take as a starting point, in October this year, with an invitation to tender in February 2014 and with the contract being awarded in October 2014—not in 15, 19 or 24 months, as proposed in the Brown review, but in just 12 months. The franchise is intended to start in February 2015, conveniently timed just before the next general election, which would be 16 months after the process started, as opposed to the 19 months from invitation to tender through to the intended start on the west coast franchise.

The Government are proposing to do this east coast franchise not only in a more rushed and hurried way than was done with the west coast franchise—the failed west coast franchise—but in a substantially shorter period than was proposed by each of the two reports they set up to investigate why the west coast franchising process had failed. When will the Minister’s party ever learn? This looks like a fire sale, rushed through before the 2015 general election.

I served on the Bill Committee that scrutinised what is now the Railways Act 1993—the legislation that introduced the privatisation of our railways. I have seen it all before. In Committee, the Government of the day said that they would franchise rail services to train operating companies, but that they had no intention of privatising the railway infrastructure of track and signalling. Then, after the Bill went through, the Government changed their mind and decided to rush through—steamroller through—the privatisation of the rail track by creating a body called Railtrack. We know that this body spectacularly and comprehensively failed. When it collapsed, the Labour Government had to put together a public sector rescue at considerable expense to the taxpayer. They created Network Rail—and we still have it as a not-for-profit company owned by guarantee, which does not have directors and does not pay dividends. We have a public sector body.

Alan Whitehouse had this to say in the Yorkshire Post just over a week ago:

“Until just a few weeks ago, East Coast was to remain in the public sector for as far ahead as anyone could see. Suddenly, it is up for grabs. Can it be a mere coincidence that the Transport Secretary…announces a re-franchising plan that would see East Coast trains returned to the private sector by the time of the next election? Or a piece of blatant electioneering? It all smacks of a similar desperation to that of the Major government’s ‘scorched earth’ policy of making rail privatisation a fait accompli before an election that he knew he would lose.”

The Minister does not have to take it from me. He does not even have to take it from a well-respected transport correspondent like Mr Whitehouse. He need only look at the history—his own party’s history—of what a rushed privatisation on the railways led to last time his party was incumbent at the time of an election. I say to him, “Slow down, even if you believe that reprivatisation is the right thing to do. Do not make the same mistakes that you made with the west coast main line. Take your time. I have no doubt that if you win the next general election you will go ahead with it, but if you do it as a fire sale, it will be a disaster not just for the railway, but for the economies of our regions that are served by it.”

15:25

[Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

I congratulate those who managed to secure a debate that is very timely, given some of the announcements that have been made lately. I also thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing us time to discuss this important issue.

The Government now have yet another opportunity to listen to the overwhelming majority of the British public, including people on both sides of the political spectrum. I think that the logic of the arguments for allowing the east coast main line to remain in public hands is powerful. The Minister likes to call me a dinosaur for believing that public services should be run for the benefit and in the interests of the public. [Interruption.] Members will see, if they check the record, that the Minister called me a dinosaur during a debate in Westminster Hall.

I support the renationalisation of the railways, especially when we see Directly Operated Railways delivering a better service and returning more money to the taxpayer than the private sector—which, let us not forget, has failed to deliver twice on the east coast main line. If that makes me a dinosaur, so be it. However, I think that we should look at the recent polling evidence. The average finding is that 70% of the public regularly support calls for the railways to be run publicly, although some polls produce larger percentages. I think that those people would be offended by the contempt and, indeed, total disregard that the Minister and his party have shown for their views and the concern that they have expressed about the failure of the privatised rail system. [Interruption.] It is certainly a failure when compared with the success that the publicly run public service operator has been able to deliver on the east coast main line. If the Minister will bear with me, I shall explain shortly why I think that the system has been a failure, not least on grounds of price.

As other Members have already pointed out today, Directly Operated Railways has returned £640 million to the Treasury in premium payments—I believe that £40 million of that has been invested in improving the service—and it is estimated that it will have paid back £800 million in premiums by April 2014. That is a tremendous success story, which should be noted by Government Members who malign the performance of public industries. Directly Operated Railways also receives the lowest net subsidy: 1%, compared with an industry average of 32%. We should not forget that a shining example of privatisation cost the public purse £4 billion a year in subsidy.

Let us consider the performance of National Express, the failing private operator. It returned only £370 million in premium payments before turning its back on the franchise, leaving the taxpayer to face not only the shortfall referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Blyth Valley (Mr Campbell), but the disruption that it had caused. Incredibly, despite National Express having failed to deliver on its commitments, the Government will not stop it or other failed operators bidding for the rail franchise, should they decide to go ahead. In a written answer to my good and hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), the Minister confirmed:

“National Express and its subsidiaries are permitted to submit for the pre-qualification process (PQQ) to run passenger rail services in all franchise competitions including the East Coast Main Line.”—[Official Report, 3 June 2013; Vol. 563, c. 970W.]

That is incredible.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

If the company is permitted to bid, surely its past record will be taken into account? Is that not the way it will work?

[Grahame M. Morris]

I suspect the Minister may be able to clarify the criteria, but judging by the answer he gave my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North, I suspect that will not be the case. Past performance does not seem to be an impediment, although perhaps it should be—and perhaps the Minister will take more notice of such a suggestion from his own side.

Whether in the public or private sector, companies that fail to deliver on their commitments or promises to the taxpayer should not be allowed to take over franchises that they have shown they are not competent to run. It is not that National Express failed on one franchise and is bidding for another; it has already failed to deliver on the east coast line.

The public understandably have concerns about the Government position in relation to this matter, and they must not reward failure. If the Minister goes ahead with the privatisation, how will he guarantee that any future operator awarded the east coast main line franchise will be able to fulfil its contract, and what assurances can he provide that the taxpayer will see a similar rate of return in respect of premium payments as they received from Directly Operated Railways? It has been said that DOR is a not-for-profit service, but that is not quite true, as it is hugely profitable, but all the profits go to the taxpayer. That is the position, and I am sure various private train operating companies would relish getting their hands on that level of turnover.

[Mr Ronnie Campbell]

I wonder who.

[Grahame M. Morris]

Yes, we can speculate about who might take on the franchise, but it is incredibly profitable and I am sure there will be no shortage of takers. That money should be going into the Treasury at this time of austerity, however.

[Mr Reid]

I have been listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s speech, but I am still not sure whether he is arguing for the east coast main line to be operated by a publicly owned company permanently or just for a temporary period that happens to be longer than the Government propose?

[Grahame M. Morris]

I can give a direct answer to that: yes, I am arguing for permanent public ownership. I am in favour of directly delivered public services, and although I do not want to take up too much time, I have some pretty powerful arguments on why that should be the case.

The hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones) talked about competition. Even if someone could not support the entire network being in public ownership, I think a reasonable person might be able to say that, for reasons of having a comparator, we should keep the very successful public provision through DOR, to act as a test and yardstick for us to assess how the private sector is doing. Instead we have the preposterous position of a failed private operator of the franchise not being barred from bidding, but instead being allowed to rebid to operate it. The Government seem quite happy to allow that.

Another perversity is that the Government seem to have this ideological, dogmatic hatred of nationalisation and publicly provided services. They are against the idea of a directly operated public service on the east coast. They are quite happy for public sector companies based in Germany, France and Holland to operate such franchises, but not UK public sector companies. That seems completely inconsistent.

The hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) gave some interesting statistics about the cost of season tickets. It is interesting to look at the costs in some European countries. Research shows that a 24-mile commute into Paris costs about £924 a year, a similar commute into Berlin costs some £700, and a similar commute into Madrid costs £654. A similar commute into London costs £3,268 a year. How can anybody suggest that the privately operated service is a huge success and stands international comparison? This follows a decade of inflation-busting fare increases which, although never welcome, are putting an unbearable strain on family budgets at a time of austerity, with wages frozen and in many cases falling.

I understand that the rail Minister is a regular user of the network—after being persuaded to swap his chauffeur-driven ministerial limousine for the train. Has he had a chance to explain to other commuters exactly what privatised rail has delivered for the taxpayer—other than the highest fares in Europe? It certainly has not delivered investment. Sir David Higgins, the head of Network Rail, has warned that it would take

“30 years of continuous investment to ensure our railways get to the level of some of the European railways that we admire”.

Dividends to shareholders of the big five transport companies that are contracted to run the UK rail service have reached nearly £2.5 billion since 2000, and there are plenty of examples of excessive boardroom pay; some of the highest paid directors have received in excess of £1 million.

However, East Coast and Directly Operated Railways offer a genuine alternative, with all profits being reinvested in services or in the Treasury—money which otherwise would have been used as dividends for shareholders or bonuses for fat cats. According to the “Rebuilding Rail” report, the cost of running the railway has more than doubled in real terms since privatisation. It is estimated that privatisation costs the equivalent of £1.2 billion a year—more than the cost of public ownership.

In the face of multiple market failures, higher costs to the public in fares and subsidies, and lower premium payments, there is nothing more ideological than the Minister and the Tory party remaining wedded to this disastrous railway privatisation policy. I hope he will listen to the concerns expressed today by Members, and by the British public, and end this failed franchise policy.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I point out that we need to conclude Back-Bench speeches in about the next 50 minutes, so if everybody is to get in, speeches need to be a bit shorter and with not too many interventions. Then, nobody will be disappointed.

15:38

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

The east coast main line is vital in providing connections between Scotland, north-east England, Yorkshire, eastern England and London. Liberal Democrats in government are delivering a massive investment in rail infrastructure and are determined to put passengers at the heart of the railway system. That is why, as part of this coalition Government, we are investing £240 million in the east coast main line between 2014 and 2019.

On 25 March, the coalition Government announced that the franchise for the east coast main line is due to be returned to the private sector in February 2015. Officials from the Department are meeting interested parties, including Transport Scotland, to ensure that future changes to the east coast main line are co-ordinated successfully. Part of the programme will be the establishment of new vehicles for the inter-city east coast franchise, which will replace the existing set of diesel-powered high-speed trains from 2018 onwards.

It is true that under the nationalised operating company, there has been an extended period of successful operation, but—

[Sheila Gilmore]

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that the new rolling stock is not linked to the refranchise?

[Mr Reid]

The Government are providing the money for the new rolling stock. Yes, it is perfectly possible that if the railway was to continue under the directly operated company that new rolling stock could still be provided.

Before the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) interrupted me, I said the word “but”, and I want to draw the House’s attention to one of the conclusions of the Brown review. It highlighted that any significant delay in the resumption of the franchising process could have a negative effect on investments involving rolling stock, upgrades and expansion and could result in some international suppliers deciding to make alternative investments outside the UK.

In a supporting letter from Mr Brown to the Transport Secretary, dated 31 December 2012, he wrote:

“I have come to the conclusion that the franchising system is not broken, but, on the contrary, it has made a major contribution to Britain’s increasingly successful rail network. There is no credible case for major structural change.”

That demonstrates that the operation of train services indefinitely by the directly operated company is not an alternative to our system. Direct operation is a key part of the private franchising model, but it was only ever meant to be a short-term mechanism as a measure of last resort.

We heard Labour Members arguing for the continuation of the directly operated model, but the Labour party is divided. By my count, we have two votes for nationalisation for ever, one for nationalisation for an indefinite period and, from the hon. Member for Edinburgh East, one for “Don’t know”. I do not think I received an answer to my intervention, but if she wishes to clarify that I am perfectly happy to give way to her a second time. The resumption of the franchise process should take place at a speed and pace that works for the Department and allows it to make necessary improvements. That was one of the key proposals of the Brown review and is why the Department will now ensure that no more than three to four franchise competitions are delivered per year in total.

Let me conclude by reiterating the commitment from the Liberal Democrats, as part of the coalition Government, to the improvement of our railways. We and our coalition partners are determined to place the passenger at the heart of the rail system and deliver better value for money in the system following years of extreme inefficiency under Labour. That is why we are delivering the biggest investment in our railways since the Victorian era. The east coast franchise and the new vehicles that are coming with it are an important part of that investment package.

15:43

[Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)]

It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), but it is more of a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend—and namesake—the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris). I know that that can sometimes be confusing, particularly when we speak consecutively.

I congratulate those hon. Members who are sponsoring the motion on their success in getting the Backbench Business Committee to agree to its being debated today, and particularly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), the lead sponsor. The whole House will be aware of her tenacity on this issue, and I commend her on her opening remarks. As she mentioned, she is a regular user of the east coast main line service from Edinburgh Waverley to London King’s Cross, as I am. So we have both been made aware at first hand, as I am sure other hon. Members have, of the benefits of the service to Scotland, the north-east of England, Yorkshire and beyond. I am sure that, like me, she appreciates the general reliability, frequency, excellent customer service and value for money the service provides to its passengers.

As a state-owned service, the ethos of putting the customer first and ensuring the most effective and efficient use of public resources is the prime objective of the company. Of course, private companies can be just as good, but their first loyalty is to their shareholders, and any profits not reinvested go on share dividends, often to the fat cats of the City of London. The difference with East Coast being a subsidiary of Directly Operated Railways, a holding company owned by the Department for Transport, is that its surpluses are paid back to the Exchequer. As Labour Members have said throughout this debate, £800 million has been returned to the taxpayer since 2009. Moreover, East Coast has invested some £40 million in the service, including in infrastructure and asset improvements. It also has the best punctuality there has been on the line since the service was privatised, and all passenger surveys and polling indicates that the overwhelming majority of people are satisfied with the service and wish it to remain in public ownership. So why are the Conservative-led Government, supported, as we have heard, by their compliant fellow travellers in the Liberal Democrats, intent on reprivatising what is evidently a most successful, lucrative and popular public service?

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

Will the hon. Gentleman say why the preceding Labour Government’s policy was to reprivatise this service?

[Graeme Morrice]

We will hear shortly from the Labour Front-Bench spokesperson on what our policy is on this matter, but I know what it is and I concur with it: retaining this service in public ownership.

[Mr Reid]

But the crux of the matter is this: is it Labour party policy that this service should remain in public ownership for ever or simply for a temporary period that happens to be longer than the one the Government have set out?

[Graeme Morrice]

As I have just mentioned, we will hear from our Front Bencher on this shortly. My own view is that this should be for an indefinite period, but the clear blue water between us and the Government on this issue is that we support a successful public service, whereas the Liberal Democrats are as one with the Conservatives in supporting the privatisation of this service. We have to question the reason why. Has this been proposed for the right financial and service reasons, or is there another, perhaps more partisan, explanation?

I wish to raise a relatively straightforward issue of fact. In an answer to a recent parliamentary question, the Minister of State said that investment in the east coast main line’s infrastructure is not dependent on reprivatising passenger operations. He said:

“Funding for the 2014-19 upgrade of the east coast main line will be delivered through the Office of Rail Regulation approving a £240 million increase in the value of Network Rail’s regulatory access base. Network Rail may then borrow up to this amount to fund the upgrade works.”—[Official Report, 15 April 2013; Vol. 561, c. 2W.]

However, he has since asserted otherwise on a number of occasions. For example, at the Transport Committee meeting on 24 April he said:

“What I think is important, looking to the future, is how you make the needed and important investment in the East Coast Main Line to bring it up to scratch. You will be as aware as I am that part of the electrification is very antiquated and needs to be replaced and upgraded because it is causing significant problems to the quality of service. I do not believe that keeping the East Coast Main Line in public ownership is the most effective and swiftest way of getting that investment. I believe that returning the East Coast Main Line to a franchise operation offers the best opportunity to move forward. In addition, the Government and the rail industry, through Network Rail, are continuing to invest in the East Coast Main Line, but we need to accelerate that and increase it.”

Then, at Transport questions on 25 April, the Minister stated that

“yes, there will be taxpayers’ money involved in investing in the east coast main line, but, more importantly, the involvement of the private sector means that we can increase, over and above the taxpayers’ money, the money that can be invested in enhancing and improving the service for passengers.”—[Official Report, 25 April 2013; Vol. 561, c. 995.]

Despite a number of hon. Members raising this with the Minister in the debate a fortnight ago, he failed to address this point in his reply. Therefore I would be grateful if he could now state once and for all whether any elements of replacing and upgrading the electrification on the east coast main line are dependent on the transfer of the operation of passenger services to the private sector. Similarly, it would be helpful if he could explain how this investment will be delivered more swiftly if reprivatisation takes place. Finally, can he provide more detail of the increased investment, over and above the taxpayers’ money being put into the line, that would be delivered as a result of privatisation?

[Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent case to keep the line in the public sector and at the very least to allow a public company to bid for it. Does he agree that as the Minister has made it clear that the planned infrastructure upgrade work on the east coast main line between 2014 and 2019 will be borne by Network Rail, that answers the question?

[Graeme Morrice]

Indeed. I am trying to expose the inconsistency in what the Minister has been saying. Unless he can explain his position when he speaks later, it remains unclear why all this private investment has been deemed necessary at all.

The past, current and planned public investment into the east coast main line has been and continues to be highly effective. However, if further investment is required, it could easily be provided by public means, given that the service returns far more to the Exchequer than it receives in subsidy. Furthermore, given the thoroughly negative history of private involvement in the east coast main line, it is highly probable that taxpayers will once again be left to pick up the tab, as we have seen in so many other botched franchise deals, not least on the west coast main line, if the east coast service is privatised.

In summary, the British taxpayer has funded the east coast main line service successfully since November 2009, after 12 years of declining profits and eventual failure under both GNER and National Express. The east coast service became hugely profitable almost immediately after renationalisation and has returned its soaring profits to the Exchequer every year, with an estimated total returned in excess of £800 million by the end of this financial year.

It is unfathomable that the response of the Government to this success, so quickly established after years of failed management by the private sector, is to decide that this is a good time to give National Express a second chance. It is appalling that the Minister and his Department are so eager to overlook this clear demonstration of the high quality of our public rail service management. Rather than continue with this charade, I suggest that the Minister should focus his efforts on sorting out the debacle of the west coast main line and other similar fiascos.

It is ill-advised for the Government to create an issue out of nothing and waste resources in trying to solve a problem that is not there, when they already struggle to deal with real problems and real issues, often of their own making. I can only conclude that it is merely political dogma that is driving the agenda, which I hope will ultimately be derailed.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I need Members to speak for less than 10 minutes if everyone is to get in, so please watch the clock and remember that your colleagues are waiting to speak. I call Andy McDonald.

15:54

[Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)]

I will be brief, Madam Deputy Speaker. I congratulate the hon. Members who secured this important debate.

The passions that questions of democratic control arouse in all parts of the House are understandable, and falling into dogmatic defence of the present or romanticised views of the past is a constant danger, but the main problem of franchising is not the money skimmed off the top by the train operating companies—the money paid out in dividends was 2% of sales in 2012—or even the massive fiscal drag caused by fragmentation, payments to rolling stock leasing companies and the excess interest on Network Rail debt, paid for no other reason than to keep it off the public balance sheet. The biggest problem of franchising, which echoes through the McNulty report, the Brown report and every major policy discussion of the past 20 years, is that the debate about the future of rail in this country has become a debate about what colour the trains are. The real debate must be about whether rail is a private enterprise or a public service.

The Minister himself has been caught in such narrow thinking, insisting time and again in Westminster Hall that Directly Operated Railways could not run a railway indefinitely, because it was not intended to do so when it was set up in the dim and distant days of 2009. With respect, though, what previous Transport Ministers imagined DOR’s role to be is of no consequence. The question surely must be not whether it was intended to run indefinitely, but whether it is capable of doing so. The tremendous success of East Coast demonstrates that it is. Total premium plus operating profit amounted to £647.6 million in the four years to 31 March 2013, and as hon. Friends have pointed out, the total by the end of the term will be £800 million. That is more in both cash and real terms than any previous franchisee on the line has achieved. All that money is available for reinvestment in our railway network.

[Roberta Blackman-Woods]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech. Could not the Government, if they wanted to, amend the Railways Act 1993 to enable East Coast to bid for the franchise as a public company? That might not be exactly what we want, but it would at least help.

[Andy McDonald]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. Such a leap of imagination—if people opened their mind to other possibilities that are available—would be welcome.

East Coast has achieved revenue growth of 9% over three full years, with 4.3% growth in 2012-13. Journey numbers have increased from 18.1 million in 2009-10 to 19.1 million in 2012-13. All that has resulted in a £40 million surplus. I was disappointed to hear Government Members criticising the service East Coast provides, when the record shows the contrary is true. Nine out of 10 trains are on time, according to the latest public performance measure, and the national rail passenger survey gives the service a 92% overall customer satisfaction rating—the highest score of any franchise on the line since records began in autumn 1999. Government Members’ critical comments are therefore highly regrettable.

If East Coast remains in public hands indefinitely, it will be to the benefit of passengers, communities and taxpayers. Several times in the course of this debate, the idea has been floated that such an arrangement would be more attractive than Ministers realise and that the public would find it engaging. More than that, it would mark a fundamental change in the thinking of the past 30 years—the economic voodoo that says that involving the private sector always, magically, creates benefits.

The truth is that railways cannot be run for profit. British Rail was subsidised. Network Rail is subsidised. No railway in the world is not subsidised in some shape or form. In that environment, train operating companies are simply one more player lobbying for a share of taxpayers’ money. They are required to return a profit for their shareholders, but their profits are not won in the marketplace; they are created by legislation.

The efforts of train operating companies are not turned outward, focused on striving towards greater efficiency or customer satisfaction; they are turned inward, focused on ringing out as much subsidy as possible from the taxpayer. Fares cover, on average, only 65% of the cost of the network, so all dividends are the result of Government largesse—and Governments have been more than generous. In the two years from September 2010 to September 2012, Network Rail’s debt, for which the taxpayer is ultimately responsible, has increased by £4.1 billion.

I would like to take this opportunity to praise the Department for Transport for resisting the self-defeating austerity advocated by the rest of the coalition Government and borrowing at very low interest rates to invest in upgrading our national infrastructure. I also offer my consolation for the fact that, in order to keep that off the Chancellor’s radar, the Department has had to pretend that it is not Government debt and pay an additional £150 million a year in interest as a result.

Surely now is the time for honesty. Private companies in the rail sector do not spur innovation. They extract value and are unnecessary, as East Coast shows. The investment in the railways is all Government money, underwritten with Government debt. The current system is unsustainable, because Network Rail now spends more on servicing its debt than on maintaining and upgrading the network, and that debt is increasing. The taxpayer paid for the service, pays for the service and will always pay for the service. It is only fair that they get what they pay for.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I am putting a nine-minute time limit on Back-Bench speeches to ensure that the remaining three Members who wish to speak can do so. If there are interventions and compensation, it will take us longer to get there.

16:01

[Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) on securing this important and timely debate from the Backbench Business Committee—I have to declare an interest, because I sit on it. Like many colleagues, given the recent history of the east coast main line and privatisation, not to mention the present Government’s failure on the west coast main line franchise, I am deeply concerned about the Government’s plans and the impending privatisation of the east coast main line.

The Secretary of State for Transport’s announcement to start the tendering process for the east coast main line and nine further franchises paid no regard to public interest. It will result in the return of a profitable rail service to private hands within the next two years. The plans are no doubt a recipe for disaster. We already know that South West Trains, another private franchise, is in operating difficulties.

We have clearly established that Government Members are in favour of state ownership of the railways. I am sure that the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) and the Minister of State, Department for Transport, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), are in favour of state ownership, but not UK state ownership; they are in favour of German, French or Dutch state company ownership of UK railways. Do we honestly think for one moment that Angela Merkel would allow such a situation to prevail in the Federal Republic of German? I do not think so.

[Roberta Blackman-Woods]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Is it not ludicrous that a publicly owned company in the UK cannot bid but publicly owned companies in other European countries can?

[Ian Mearns]

Given how Eurosceptic so many Government Members are, I think that it is utterly bizarre that they would rather see profits from UK railways going to France, Germany or Holland.

If Members have any doubts about the way this is all coming about, they need only look back a few years to the Government’s rescue of the line from the failing £1.4 billion National Express franchise. However, despite the private sector’s record of failure, the Government are determined to press ahead regardless of the interest of the travelling public. They would pursue the foolish policy of privatisation, despite history repeatedly telling us that the privatisation of railway lines and rail infrastructure is detrimental to cost and service for the customer and to the Government because of huge financial bail-outs.

The state-owned Directly Operated Railways, which runs the east coast main line, has generated and paid the Government £640 million in premiums and profits since 2009, and it is anticipated that by the end of this financial year that figure will be £800 million in total. Surely even the Chancellor or the Finance Ministers whom I faced on the Finance Bill Committee earlier this afternoon would want to see those moneys returned to the Chancellor’s coffers. Even this Government, given the current financial state of the country, should want to keep the franchise in public hands and see those profits repatriated to the Treasury.

The Government should pocket the profits for the public and use them to help cut the deficit and perhaps even invest in infrastructure. One thing that we have to accept about the east coast main line—railway engineers have told me this—is that, unfortunately, when it was first electrified I am afraid to say that it was done on the cheap; it was not a good model of electrification in the first instance. This Government, however, do not want to see that money reinvested. It is clear that, for them, private shareholder interest comes before the public interest. This is yet another example of this Government’s failed and ideologically driven economic policies.

No one denies that the east coast main line suffers its own problems of chronic under-investment, particularly with regard to what is now very tired rolling stock. We have discussed rolling stock reinvestment, but the problem is that we are being promised jam not tomorrow, but the day after tomorrow. The first new rolling stock on the east coast main line will be the diesel replacement, but that will not actually occur until 2018, with the rest of the fleet following further down the line. Let us not forget that the east coast main line inherited this burden from the privately owned rail firms, Great North Eastern Railway and National Express.

There has been very little rolling stock investment on the line for many decades. There has been some refurbishment, but that was mainly on carriages that were damaged following the tragic Hatfield and Selby rail crashes. The only way to run an effective rail service is to ensure that the infrastructure is up to scratch through continued investment, yet the overriding objective from a private sector perspective is not to invest in maintenance and customer satisfaction, but to return money to shareholders.

Privatisation in the rail sector is consistently lacking and detrimental to customers and the industry. Why privatise a service that has been successful? In short, it is not broke, so why fix it?

Let us recall the demise of Railtrack in 2002. The problems were numerous, but the straw that broke the camel’s back was the requirement for essential safety repairs following the Paddington and Hatfield disasters. Railtrack—a privately owned company under the failed model—was answerable to shareholders rather than the public. It was, to put it bluntly, badly managed, effectively bankrupt and unwilling to try to fund urgent safety improvements as well as normal running costs. Subsequently, as we know, the company was put into administration and Network Rail, a not-for-profit body, was invented to take over the rail network.

Given the inherent debt of Network Rail, is any Government Member suggesting for one moment that we re-privatise it? Of course not, because it would be completely and utterly stupid. Even if it were privatised—let us be honest—who really trusts this Government to introduce a fair and transparent, or even competent, tendering process in the current rail industry? Let us not forget the west coast franchise, for instance, which has cost the Government at least £50 million. What a complete shambles—a shambles that has resulted in Virgin, which lost to First Group in the tendering process, having to have its contract extended until 2017. The whole model does not produce competition; it produces a series of service monopolies on individual lines. That is not competition as anyone would understand it.

In among all this, the staff on the east coast main line have worked diligently and conscientiously through all the management changes over the years, but they have seen the equipment and rolling stock that they work on slowly deteriorate around them. Those staff are a credit to the service and deserve our congratulations. They and the travelling public they serve on the east coast main line deserve so much better.

The east coast main line should remain where the vast majority of the travelling public want it—in the public sector, in public ownership—and some of the surpluses that it generates should be reinvested into the service itself.

16:09

[Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

I not only congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) on securing the debate, but thank her for all the hard work that she has done in spearheading the campaign to keep the east coast main line in public ownership.

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Blyth Valley (Mr Campbell), I note that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said that he wants to balance the books and keep costs down for taxpayers. He therefore needs to have words with the Secretary of State for Transport and his Ministers, because they seem to be oblivious to that fact. While in public ownership, the east coast main line has provided vast sums of money to the coffers. The Office of Rail Regulation has reported that it offers the best value to taxpayers.

I can only reiterate the facts and figures that colleagues have given this afternoon. Directly Operated Railways Ltd has paid back £602 million to the Government in premium payments, which is £232 million more than National Express paid back for the same service and £320 million more than Virgin-Stagecoach has paid back since 2009. The facts speak for themselves. Only 1.2% of East Coast’s income is derived from public subsidy, compared with an average of 32.1% for the private train operating companies. Since 2009, East Coast has reinvested all of its £40 million profit into the service, whereas Virgin, in operating the west coast main line since 1996, has paid nearly half a billion pounds in dividends to its shareholders.

Like many of the MPs here, I use the east coast main line every week. I have used it for leisure purposes since the late ’60s. There are some fantastic places to visit along the line, my favourites being York and Edinburgh, where I have many happy memories. I have seen a number of improvements in the three short years during which I have travelled between Newcastle and King’s Cross as an MP. The trains are punctual for the most part and the staff are always friendly and helpful. Some 80% of the delays that do occur are beyond the control of East Coast. It should be praised for being at fault for so few delays. When trains are delayed, East Coast has a fantastic compensation scheme that refunds the fare. For MPs, that goes back to the taxpayer in lower expenses.

It is possible to get to London from Newcastle in two hours and 40 minutes. That is fantastic for people who are travelling to work and must be lauded. The excellent rewards scheme, which the company initiated, means that there is plenty of opportunity to get free journeys. Again, when that is used by MPs, it means a direct saving to the taxpayer through lower expenses. Could we expect the same from a private operator that had to keep its shareholders happy?

The hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones) is right that there has been a rise in the number of passengers using the service. There has been a 59% increase since 1944. However, analysis shows that that is the direct result of a 300% increase in public subsidy to the rail industry. It is also the case that although there has been passenger growth, there has been no corresponding increase in rail’s modal share compared to other forms of transport. The number of people using the trains has not, in effect, changed.

In a recent Westminster Hall initiated by my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald), the Minister did not give East Coast any acknowledgement for reinvesting its profits, and he failed to recognise that if it went into private ownership, the cost of upgrading the line and getting new stock would be met through public spending. He could not give a good reason why privatisation was being pushed through ahead of other franchises, as highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley). An article in The Northern Echo reported how Lord Adonis accused the Department for Transport of attempting to “rig the franchising timetable”, delaying costs for other lines, at a huge cost to taxpayers, in order to put East Coast first. He said:

“East Coast is doing a great job and it should be allowed to get on with it.”

I will conclude by agreeing with Frances O’Grady, the general secretary of the TUC and chair of Action For Rail, who said:

“This decision defies all logic…The government…is not interested in evidence-based policy and is once again putting the interests of private companies and shareholders before those of commuters and taxpayers…This is privatisation for privatisation’s sake, as Ministers steadfastly ignore what is best for the rail industry and the people who work on it and use it.”

I can only agree.

16:16

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

The hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) made a robust defence of privatisation—it must be unusual for the Conservatives to hear a Liberal Democrat robustly defending Government policies for a change—but it is not unfair to point out that he represents a constituency in the west of Scotland. Although I am sure some of his constituents use the east coast service from time to time, he will not have had my experience of regularly meeting constituents on the train or at the station. If he had, he would know that his defence for putting the east coast service back into private hands would not find great favour among users of that line, because the service provided since East Coast was brought in has been good. It has not always been perfect, but customers and passengers are generally satisfied and, as has been said, when there are problems—particularly delays—they are mostly not down to factors over which East Coast has, or is expected to have, any control.

It is pretty outrageous of the Minister, who is generally a fair person, to use poor punctuality over some selected periods to justify putting the east coast service back into private hands. Some of his colleagues suggested that the private sector might be able to offer infrastructure improvements or offers for long-term planning, but for the last few years, East Coast has been operating the service, not on a day-to-day basis but certainly not on a long-term basis with any security. Surely we should now give East Coast the chance to see what it could come up with if it were given long-term security similar to a franchise period.

The Government should approach the issue in a non-ideological way. As has been said in this debate, East Coast provides a good return to the taxpayer, in contrast to previous operators, and surely success should be rewarded, not punished as the Government seem intent on doing. I would like the service to be retained and continue to be operated by Directly Operated Railways. That would be the simplest way forward. If the Government are not prepared to do that, could they not allow Directly Operated Railways to come forward with an alternative bid and a proposal that could be put against whatever comes in from private tenderers, to see who offers best value for the Government and for passengers? Then we can judge who has the best offer on the table. The Government should at least do that, if they are not driven purely by an ideological bent, as they appear to be.

I wonder whether the way the Government have timetabled the franchise process—presumably partly to comply with the Brown review and obviously in order to have the east coast main line back in private hands before the 2015 election—will result in a fair bidding process. I say that because with Virgin operating the west coast route until April 2017 and providing a service that is popular with many passengers, and with another branch of the Virgin empire operating flights to Edinburgh and Aberdeen, competition issues would surely arise if it was to bid for the east coast main line as well. It would not leave many alternative bidders, certainly from within the UK. The 2015 date has clearly been driven by the date of the general election, but I wonder whether the franchise process, instead of giving the Government a successful policy to sell to the public, might not in fact give them a huge headache just before May 2015. If that is the case, it will serve them right. I say give DOR on the east coast main line a chance at least to put forward an alternative bid to show what it can do, to show what its management team can do and to show what alternative offer can be put into the process to see which would bring the best value for money.

I want to raise a point that has not been raised so far, but which is important to the future of the east coast main line and the franchise. We will be having a separate debate next week on High Speed 2, which I support—although I think it should be going all the way to Scotland—but whichever option is adopted for the future of high-speed rail in the UK, under the present plans the services operating the high-speed system will reach points near Manchester, York or Leeds, and will then be run on the existing rail network up to north-east England and Scotland—along what are endearingly called in the HS2 prospectus the “classic routes” to Edinburgh and Glasgow. It is reasonable to ask, therefore, how many more trains we can fit into the existing east coast main line network north of York.

For those reasons, we need to plan for the future services, network and infrastructure on the east coast main line on a long-term, secure basis. Let us not forget what has happened before with the franchising process on that line. Twice the operator has been forced to give back the service to the Department, and most recently DOR was forced to operate the service at the last minute to ensure that the public continued getting a good service, as indeed they have.

If DOR cannot continue operating the east coast service, the Government—whoever is in power in 2015—might find themselves in a difficult situation. At the moment, if a privately operated franchise collapses, DOR has the infrastructure, staffing and structure to move in quickly and take over the service. If we take away the DOR service on the east coast main line, we will take away a valuable alternative operator and comparator for the rail network. That is another reason why the Government should be rethinking this proposal and approaching it on a non-ideological basis. They need to consider what is best for the customer and passenger, and that must surely be to allow the current East Coast service to continue, rather than yet again to force it into private hands in the way suggested.

16:23

[Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)]

I am delighted to have the opportunity to participate in this debate. I begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) on securing this important debate and on all her campaigning work on this issue.

The east coast main line is vital for the connectivity of my constituency. As regular passengers, many of my constituents have an interest in the future management of the line. I too am a frequent user of the route, travelling between my constituency and Westminster, and I have generally been pleased by the speed, punctuality and comfort of the line and by the high standard of service and professionalism of its staff since it took over from National Express in 2009. I am not alone in thinking this. The most recent survey by the independent consumer group Passenger Focus found that 92% of passengers were satisfied with their experience with East Coast. To put that in perspective, that is the highest level of customer satisfaction recorded on the line since the surveys began in 1999, and 3% higher than the national average for long-distance operators. Improved satisfaction tells only some of the story. East Coast has increased its employee engagement, meaning that most employees are in favour of continued public ownership of the line. That should not be dismissed.

My hon. Friends have gone through much of the detail on the benefits of East Coast, including the £800 million being paid back to the Exchequer, and I do not feel that I have time to reiterate all those points. What is clear from the information we have, and which is readily available to the Minister and his team, is that this is a well-run, profitable line that is popular with passengers. Why, then, are the Government insisting on selling off the franchise, while at the same time extending the contracts for less successful operators? I hope the Minister will answer that specific question.

In the previous debate on this issue, the hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) said that East Coast is simply treading water—an amazing claim to make considering that the franchise has consistently made improvements year on year. The Minister stated that East Coast had provided the foundations for a private company to come in with

“certainty of ownership, longer planning horizons”—[Official Report, 5 June 2013; Vol. 563, c. 254WH.]

to improve the service. The success of East Coast without that long planning horizon prompts the question: how much more would it be able to do if it was given a longer franchise? Perhaps he could confirm that the majority of investment in new rolling stock will come from the public sector, and not the private sector. We should not link the private sector franchise for running the line with future investment in rolling stock—they need to be kept separate. They keep getting muddled in our debates.

The Liberal Democrat-Tory Government have been quick to say that when Labour set up Directly Operated Railways in 2009, after the privately owned National Express walked away from the franchise, it was there purely as a stop-gap. That was certainly true at the time. Since then, however, Labour has seen that the franchise is working for both passengers and the Government. Has the Minister not considered that the franchise is working well and should be extended? A large part of the Minister’s argument in the previous debate seemed to rest on the fact that previous Labour Transport Secretaries said that they would do the same as him. Today, we have a statement from Lord Adonis and my right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) saying that they are clearly in favour of the contract staying in public ownership. Lord Adonis said:

“In the last four years East Coast has established itself as one of the best train operating companies in the country, both operationally and commercially. This has fundamentally changed the situation, and it is right and proper that East Coast should be allowed to continue as a public sector comparator to the existing private franchises.”

It seems illogical to change something that is performing so well, particularly when it provides a useful comparator to measure the performance of private operators against. At the very least, the Government should delete section 25 of the Railways Act 1993 and allow East Coast to submit a bid for the new franchise. It seems almost perverse that, as we have heard from other colleagues today, state-owned companies from France, Germany and the Netherlands currently operate 10 of the 17 privately run UK rail franchises—thereby subsidising rail fares elsewhere in Europe—yet public companies from Britain are not even allowed to bid. Surely it is clear to everyone in the country—apart from the Minister and his team, perhaps—that the Government’s plans for rail are totally on the wrong track.

16:29

[Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) on securing this important and timely debate, which builds on her strong campaigning work on behalf of passengers, and the many hon. Members who have supported the compelling case that she set out.

Since the Government announced the reprivatisation of East Coast services in March, the decision has been fiercely criticised in Parliament and the country at large. Ministers have been pressed on numerous occasions in this House and through dozens of written questions, yet they have not produced a single credible reason for rushing through this costly and unnecessary privatisation—a point that my hon. Friend the Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley) made very eloquently, as did many others. Instead, one by one, the props supporting the Government’s argument have been kicked away.

We were told that the east coast main line had to be privatised because punctuality had plateaud; and perhaps it really had disappointed in four weeks out of 52. That was the narrow window that the Minister quoted when he appeared before the Select Committee on Transport. Indeed, he even described East Coast as the worst operator for punctuality. However, contrary to what the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) claimed, the annual figures show that over the last year the east coast main line has outperformed the west coast on punctuality, according to both the public performance measure and the narrower “right time” assessment. Punctuality is now better than under the previous, failed private operators and is at its best since records began.

[Mr Stewart Jackson]

I thank the shadow Transport spokesman for giving way, but I did not actually say that. I compared the performance with the performance of the best-performing train operating companies, rather than making a strict comparison with the west coast main line. That is an important distinction.

[Lilian Greenwood]

I shall have to refer back to the record, but it is my recollection that the hon. Gentleman described East Coast as the worst operator for punctuality, which is certainly not the case, so this privatisation cannot be about punctuality.

We were also told that the east coast main line must be privatised in order to attract private sector investment. The Minister told the Select Committee:

“I do not believe that keeping the East Coast Main Line in public ownership is the most effective and swiftest way of getting that investment.”

However, as he has confirmed in written answers to hon. Members, the cost of rolling stock procurement and track upgrades on the east coast main line will be met through public spending, just as the cost of the £9 billion west coast upgrade was borne by the taxpayer. If anything, the Government’s plans threaten investment. At the moment, all the east coast profits are invested in the service, instead of being split with shareholders. That would end in 2015 if the Government have their way, so this privatisation cannot be about investment either.

We were also told that privatisation would deliver better value for money. On that point the Government’s argument takes its final departure from reality. Since 2009, East Coast has returned £640 million to the taxpayer and invested £40 million of its profits back in the service. As the Office of Rail Regulation recently confirmed, East Coast receives virtually no subsidy and yet made the second highest premium payments of any operator in 2011-12. To put that into context, subsidy accounted for just 1% of East Coast’s income, compared with an industry average of 32%.

East Coast is also performing a vital role as a public sector comparator, especially as the Government seek to negotiate extensions with operators. This is an important point, and I shall return to it shortly. East Coast delivers good value for money, benefiting taxpayers and fare payers. Let us compare today’s situation with the instability and cost that resulted from the collapse of Sea Containers and the decision of National Express to walk away from the franchise. Against that backdrop, and taking into account ageing rolling stock and a route that was last upgraded in the 1980s, Directly Operated Railways has done very well to record such a strong financial performance.

East Coast’s improvements to financial and operational performance have also been reflected in better services for passengers. Since 2009, the operator has introduced a new timetable providing 19 more services per day and, far from lacking innovation, it has taken initiatives on customer services. For example, many train operating companies are encouraging passengers to print advance-purchase single tickets at home, but East Coast is the only operator that allows them to amend a print-at-home ticket up to the evening before departure.

The proposed privatisation is not about passengers. It is not about operational performance and it is not about value for money. It is about politics, and the determination of the Government to end a successful, not-for-dividend alternative to franchising. The taxpayer will end up footing the bill for this politically motivated decision. There will be the immediate cost of running the franchise competition. Will the Minister tell the House what the overall cost will be to the taxpayer of refranchising the east coast route?

That covers only the direct cost, however. As we seek to reduce inefficiencies on the railways, East Coast provides a useful public sector comparator—a benchmark against which we can measure the costs of franchised operators. That was certainly the position of the present local transport Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker). Perhaps he did not enjoy the support of the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) when, in 2009, he told the House:

“My view on the franchise agreements is clear…if a franchise is handed in to the Government—handed back—it should be held in the public sector as a public interest franchise, not least as a comparator for other franchise agreements currently operating.”—[Official Report, 3 June 2009; Vol. 495, c. 83WH.]

That was his view in opposition. I wonder whether it is still his view in power.

[Mr Jackson]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Lilian Greenwood]

I will not give way at the moment. I do not want to run out of time.

Directly Operated Railways has another function. It allows the Government a fall-back operator, should they fail in their current negotiations for franchise extensions. Indeed, earlier this month, the Minister of State, Department for Transport, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) told the House:

“The operation of train services by DOR is an essential part of the privatised franchising model.”—[Official Report, 5 June 2013; Vol. 563, c. 225WH.]

However, the Government are proposing to remove all operational responsibilities from DOR, leaving the body hamstrung. He cannot expect to retain the experienced and capable management team at DOR once the East Coast route is privatised. As the Department goes into negotiations for franchise extensions and direct awards, the train operating companies will know that Ministers are loth, for political reasons, to transfer operations to Directly Operated Railways. That must be dispiriting for those civil servants who are sent to negotiate the best possible deal for the taxpayer. As my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East has noted, Ministers have taken their strongest bargaining chip and thrown it away. This mindset and this lack of imagination are compounding the costs incurred by the shambolic collapse of rail franchising on this Government’s watch. That collapse has cost the taxpayer at least £55 million, and the price is rising.

[Mr Jackson]

I have to ask the hon. Lady a straightforward question: in 13 years, why did not the Labour Government repeal section 25 of the Railways Act 1993 in order to facilitate the franchising regime that she and her hon. Friends think is the right way forward?

[Lilian Greenwood]

I cannot speak about that as I was not here, but the fact is that we now conducting a thorough review of the how the railways are structured. East Coast should be kept as a not-for-dividend operator, and we are committed to doing that.

[Mr Reid]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Lilian Greenwood]

No, as I want to make some progress.

Decisions on rolling stock have been postponed and a lack of orders is hitting the supply chain, threatening jobs and skills. The National Audit Office has raised serious concerns over the Department for Transport’s ability to deliver major projects, including HS2, and the Thameslink rolling stock contract is only now being signed after an unacceptable three-year delay.

With that background, it is no surprise that the rail industry has been shaken with a loss of confidence in the franchising process, hurting not just those on the front line, but the wider industry as well. Instead of concentrating on the problems caused by the collapse of the west coast and Great Western tenders, the Government are selling off the one part of the network that is benefiting from an extended period of stability. The east coast line could benefit further if the Government only had the courage to support it. Management have prepared a five-year plan for improving services, but Ministers have damned East Coast with faint praise, conceding that it is doing a good job, yet pushing through their politically motivated timetable for privatisation.

As Lord Adonis and my right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) said this week, it makes no sense to reprivatise an East Coast service that is working. Let me quote the noble Lord:

“East Coast is doing a great job and it should be allowed to get on with it…It has an impressive performance record, it has a loyal customer following and it is making big payments back to the government from its profit—to keep fares down for the travelling public—without needing to pay dividends to private shareholders …The government’s decision to rig the franchising timetable to get this unnecessary privatisation under way is requiring them to agree costly extensions to other contracts, wasting tax-payers’ money.”

He is right, and I hope that the Government listen to that argument.

We now have an opportunity to learn lessons and improve the rail industry for the better. Ministers should proceed on the basis of the best evidence available and promote what works instead of relying on political dogma. So it is disappointing to see them repeating the mistakes of the 1990s, when the ill-thought-through privatisation of the rail industry left us with problems with which the network is still grappling today. Now we have this unneeded, unwanted, and unjustified privatisation of the east coast main line—a service that has quietly and successfully improved the quality of journeys; a not-for-dividend operator that has delivered good value for money and reinvested profits in the service, unlike the private operator that walked away. There is no financial or operational case for privatisation. It is a transparently political act from a Government who are prepared to risk undoing the progress of the recent past. Passengers deserve better. I hope that Ministers will listen to the arguments made in the House today and halt this costly and unnecessary privatisation.

16:39

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Simon Burns)]

I, too, begin by congratulating the hon. Members for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) and for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) on securing the debate. It is clearly a topic that arouses considerable interest, as has been seen in hon. Members’ speeches. I suspect that the policies advocated by the Greek chorus on one part of the Opposition Benches vary somewhat from the policies of the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) on another part of the those Benches.

I particularly enjoyed the thoughtful speeches of my hon. Friends the Members for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) and for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones), and there was an interesting speech from the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), but I gently remind him that it is this Conservative and Liberal Democrat coalition Government—and not simply the Liberal Democrats—who are making such record investments in our rail infrastructure.

As usual, I listened with considerable care and interest to the extremely thoughtful speech of the hon. Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley), who raised a number of issues. First, he asked whether the headquarters would be in York. I understand why he did so: the issue is important to him, because York is his constituency. Obviously we would not expect to specify the location of the headquarters in any future franchise proposals, but there is nothing to prevent the new franchise company from choosing to locate its headquarters in York, especially given the current precedent.

The hon. Gentleman sought to tempt me down another route, asking for an independent commission to be set up to establish whether passengers wanted services to be taken away from Directly Operated Railways. I am afraid that I must disappoint him. I will not be tempted on to the wayside. We have no plans to set up any such commission, although perhaps I can give him some consolation. We are working with the independent body Passenger Focus to ensure that we understand what passengers, on the basis of their own experiences, want from their rail service, and that will influence any proposals that emerge from the franchise process.

The hon. Members for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald), for Easington (Grahame M. Morris), for Livingston (Graeme Morrice), for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) and for Blyth Valley (Mr Campbell) all made their customary contributions. I am afraid that, while their delivery may have gained in rapidity, theirs is a message that I have heard many times before. I am sorry that they are not on message in relation to their hon. Friend the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood). I think it would be fair to say—they will be proud of this—that they would like an outright renationalisation of the whole railway system.

[Mr Ronnie Campbell]

I never said that.

[Mr Burns]

No, but I think that that conclusion could be drawn from what the hon. Gentleman has said. [Interruption.] He is being a little too coy now. We do know his history; he does have form. I do not think that even the hon. Member for Nottingham South is advocating an outright renationalisation.

The debate is so important, and of so much interest to so many people, because the east coast franchise serves so many communities and businesses, and helps to drive the economy along the length of the country, from London in the south to Aberdeen and Inverness in Scotland. I am grateful for my second opportunity in less than three weeks to discuss the franchise. We needed to revisit the issue today because Members felt that, given the high level of interest, the last debate—which was restricted to one and a half hours—was not long enough.

It is clear that the inter-city coast franchise is a valuable one. That, in my view, is a major part of why it should be returned to the private sector as soon as possible, as was originally envisaged by Lord Adonis when he brought it into temporary public ownership as Secretary of State in 2009. He said—I am repeating this for a reason—

“I do not believe that it would be in the public interest for us to have a nationalised train operating company indefinitely.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 1 July 2009; Vol. 712, c. 232.]

The work that has been done on the east coast franchise in the last three and a half years of public ownership, to which many Members have rightly referred, will allow an operator from the private sector to apply its own skills and innovative thinking to building long-term value for both the taxpayer and passengers on the route. I was informed during the Westminster Hall debate two weeks ago that Lord Adonis had changed his views on the ownership of the franchise, but I have not, and the Government have not. We remain committed to obtaining, for east coast passengers and for the taxpayer, the great benefits of franchising that we have seen since privatisation.

I think it is very interesting that the noble Lord and the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), along with the shadow Secretary of State, put out a press release this morning in advance of the debate. I would love to know the date of the telephone conversation the hon. Member for Nottingham South had with Lord Adonis when he told her he had changed his mind. I would be very grateful if she would intervene and tell me. [Interruption.] She says that she had a telephone conversation—[Interruption.] She said she never had one?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. We must have a debate across the Dispatch Box so it can be recorded. We do not want prompting and responses from any Member who does not have the Floor Minister, you have the Floor.

[Mr Burns]

I was wondering whether the hon. Lady was going to intervene.

[Lilian Greenwood]

I intervene merely to confirm that I have not had any telephone conversation with the noble Lord since we last spoke over the Dispatch Box.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I call Simon Hughes. I am sorry; I mean Simon Burns.

[Mr Burns]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. That is a real compliment.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I was getting ahead of myself; I apologise, Minister.

[Mr Burns]

I accept the apology.

I have to say to the hon. Member for Nottingham South that that was an interesting and carefully worded response. I was not asking when she had a conversation since the last debate; I asked when she had the conversation in which Lord Adonis told her he had changed his mind. I am not going to get an answer, however, so we will make some progress.

[Mr Stewart Jackson]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

No, I want to make some progress.

By returning the east coast franchise to a private sector operator, we will provide certainty of ownership and much longer-term planning horizons that are not available to public sector operators. That is vital at a time when this Government are making significant investment in the franchise, both in the infrastructure through our rail investment strategy and in new rolling stock as part of the inter-city express programme. A strong private sector partner will be able to build on that investment and work with local stakeholders, the Department and the railway industry to ensure that the best possible deal is delivered for passengers and taxpayers.

I heard the concerns raised by a number of hon. Members about services along the line and what they would like to see for their constituents and the service in general in any future provision.

[Lilian Greenwood]

The Minister recently said the east coast needs a long-term private sector partner that is able to cope with the totality of this change programme. Will he explain to the House in plain English what precisely he meant by that?

[Mr Burns]

Absolutely, and doing so will also help answer the points made by the hon. Member for Livingston. The Government are investing significantly in the east coast main line because its infrastructure needs to be improved and enhanced, but Governments are not awash with unlimited amounts of money. We are more ambitious for the east coast main line, and we believe from the experience of other franchisees that they are prepared to invest their money as well, to build on the investment that the Government provide, through Network Rail and other sources, to ensure that there is more investment in improving services for passengers, which is the key aim. That is why this Government are making record amounts of investment in infrastructure, amounting to billions and billions of pounds; such is our commitment to improving passenger services.

[Mr Ronnie Campbell]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

No, because I am running out of time.

Part of the success of franchising comes from having both a private sector that is willing and able to invest and manage risks and a Government who have the ability to step in, in the short term, to ensure the continued service of the railways in the event of a franchise failure. While we do everything we can to avoid such failure, we must be in a position to step in so that there is a continuation of service if a franchisee were to get into trouble, as happened with National Express on the east coast main line in 2009. That is the whole purpose of DOR. It is not a company like other companies providing franchise services within the rail network. It is there as a company of last resort in an emergency to ensure continuity of service under the Railways Acts. This should never be considered a long-term solution, and it is not an alternative model to franchising. Many Members totally misunderstood or did not get that point. This is fundamental: DOR is not an alternative model to franchising. We firmly believe that the private sector is best placed to deliver the best value for the passenger and taxpayer, and DOR allows us to make that choice.

[Lilian Greenwood]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

No; I am running out of time. The nature of Directly Operated Railways, as an interim measure and operator of last resort, means it would not be right or practicable for it to plan beyond the short term. In order to provide the stability and innovation that is needed for any business, in particular a rail franchise that serves the public, it is necessary to be able to plan well into the future and make investment decisions that have a horizon beyond the short term. To meet this need, the inter-city east coast franchise must be transferred back to the private sector.

A number of Members have suggested that East Coast should be maintained in public ownership for an extended period to provide a comparator or baseline for future private sector operators on the franchise, or against operators on other parts of the network. This approach does not work. All franchises are different, and with changes to charges and funding occurring every five years, they even differ from themselves over time. Any attempt directly to compare one franchise with another, or even one incumbent with another on the same franchise, ends up simply comparing apples with pears. East Coast, a large inter-city franchise, is obviously different from Essex Thameside, a franchise providing commuter services on a much smaller route. Clearly, it would be folly to try to make valid comparisons between them. However, even with the apparently similar inter-city west coast franchise, differences in fleet size, cost base, network grant, investment plans, disruption and other factors make drawing a valid comparison with East Coast almost impossible.

There is a comparator already in existence. In the past 17 years since privatisation, the number of passengers using the railways has doubled from 750 million to 1.5 billion. The number of journeys has doubled, and the amount of freight moving off our congested roads and on to the railways has increased by 60%. The comparator is the British Rail model that satisfied no one, failed to respond to its customers and was totally unsuccessful.

09:30

[Sheila Gilmore]

I thank all Members who have contributed to this debate, especially the Government Back Benchers, who made it a proper debate. We may not agree, but this is an important issue and we all need to be challenged and to have that discussion. However, I am disappointed that they seem determined to paint this debate as a strictly binary dispute—everything should be private, or everything should be public—hence the insistence on trying to push Labour Members to “come out”, as it were, as renationalisers. I am sure that some of my colleagues are unabashed renationalisers. Our dinosaur Member, my hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris), demonstrated that he might be in good company, in that 70% of the British public might also be dinosaurs on this issue.

We do not need to approach this subject in a highly ideological way. There is a powerful pragmatic argument, whatever we think of the wider issues, in favour of retaining East Coast in public hands. That case was made powerfully by many Members. I do not want to ignore the contributions of others, but I would single out the powerful contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley), who asked some important practical questions and pointed out that to rush this process—even in the face of what the investigation into the west coast fiasco told the Government—is to put ideology above common sense. Unfortunately, the Minister was so determined to talk about our policies then and now that he still has not answered a number of the crucial questions. He has not said why the east coast route should be prioritised over other long-distance routes. He did not say why the evidence presented in previous debates was not—

17:00

Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)).

Foreign-owned UK Property

Thursday 20th June 2013 Commons Chamber

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Mr Swayne.)

17:00

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

Through you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank Mr Speaker for granting me this Adjournment debate. I welcome the Minister for Housing to his place and am grateful for the opportunity at the end of today’s business to consider the purchase of housing in the United Kingdom by people or companies based abroad.

When I was first elected—a long time ago now—the London Docklands development corporation was in charge of some of the dockland areas, including parts of my constituency. One of the most successful things it ever did was to have a scheme of building new homes and offering them for sale to people locally at discounted prices—or, at least, prices that did not make so much profit. There were huge queues of people and the homes were snapped up. There was a restriction on onward sales, whereby people had to live in the houses for a certain amount of time, and they met a lot of the unmet housing need of people who wanted to stay in Bermondsey, Rotherhithe or Surrey Docks but who could not afford to live there.

Sadly, the situation is now completely different. I want to talk about the problem first before suggesting some solutions, based on comments made to me once people knew the debate was happening and on documents that have been in the public domain or press in the past few days. Let me start with two e-mails that I received before the debate.

The first e-mail is from somebody in Battersea:

“Good to see someone at least talking about the housing crisis in London.

As an architect, part of my job is designing apartments in central London that I know are being sold off plan to buyers in China.

Sometimes whole developments are sold in a day, with Chinese buyers paying in cash.

That is before they are ever offered to the UK market, but should they ever be offered they would only be affordable to barristers and traders, not middle income workers like myself.

It infuriates me, as I am still in a share house after 7 years of being in London.”

[Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman mentions units being sold off plan before being offered to the UK market, but does he agree that by doing that some new home developers are discriminating against UK citizens?

[Simon Hughes]

That certainly appears to be the case. Let me give a constituency example. At the Elephant and Castle, just over the bridge, as people know, there is a controversial development of a former council estate, the Heygate estate, that is being done by Lend Lease, an Australian company. The first phase was either first put on the market in Malaysia or put on the market in Malaysia at the same time as it was advertised here. My constituents, who are desperate for the housing that was meant to replace the council estate, were more than angry to think that not only were they not getting the affordable housing they were promised at the promised levels but the property that was made available for private sale first was being block-bought off plan in Malaysia. This morning I went to look at an estate development in my constituency that has, I understand, been marketed principally in Thailand.

To show the other side of the coin, let me cite a second e-mail that I received unprompted in the past couple of days, entitled “Housing developers targeting foreign buyers”. It states:

“I am British and live in Singapore. Even though I have a work permit, the Government put an extra high stamp duty on property, and also restrict me from renting out a property I buy for the first three years of ownership.

I gather that the first phase of the Battersea development was out-sold in Singapore with over 800 units going to Singaporeans. The main reason is the devaluation of Sterling combined with the rising costs of housing in Singapore. Why buy a two bed in Singapore for £1 million sterling when you can buy two in London for £800,000?”

So in this country properties are increasingly being sold abroad and in other countries Governments are realising that they need to have some restrictions on the inward investment into their housing in order to look after their own people and ensure that they, or residents in these countries, who may not have been born there but have settled there, have opportunity in the market.

The Mayor of London this week produced a document “The greatest city on Earth: ambitions for London”. I share that view of London, as I think it is the greatest city on earth, and also the ambitions for it. I am hugely proud to be a London Member of Parliament and to represent my constituency. In the same month as that was produced, the Bureau of Investigative Journalism published an article headed “The housing crisis: Westminster hit by soaring costs as it struggles with homeless crisis”. Today’s Evening Standard headline is “Rough sleepers double in 5 years: Mayor under fire after pledge to eliminate problem”. It gives the explanation as follows:

“Experts said the increasing numbers were a consequence of housing benefit cuts, soaring rents and the closure of a dozen hostels and day centres”.

Soaring rents are absolutely one of the reasons why people cannot find homes that they need.

As hon. Members would imagine, a lot of work has been done in this area. I am grateful to Savills Residential, with which I have met. It produces regular reports and is about to do another one on who invests in this country, where and how. A very good report was produced by the Smith Institute in July 2012 entitled “London for sale? An assessment of the private housing market in London and the impact of growing overseas investment”. Deloitte produces an annual prediction and has just done so. Knight Frank has accurate, up-to-date figures, which I have looked at and drawn on.

I have also looked at other articles, with titles such as “More restrictions on foreign property buyers in Switzerland” and “Property purchases: who can purchase property in Denmark?”. The Danes have clearly thought that they need to address this problem. I have looked at other general assessments—for example, an article in April entitled “Buyers not wanted: restrictions on international property investors”. It stated:

“While the world’s investors are busy snapping up property in London, other countries are putting up barriers to foreign ownership”.

That is the backdrop to this. I want to say a word about the politics and then where we ought to go. I am very clear that the UK has prided itself always on its international connections. London is a great global city, and my wonderful constituency has been a destination and place of passage for people from all over the world for centuries. Nobody I know in public life, in my party or in my constituency, does not appreciate the contribution that foreign investment has made into our country in the past and will continue to make in the future. We have also historically prided ourselves on being a country based on the free market, from which UK citizens and residents can acquire interests abroad, and where non-UK citizens and residents, and companies registered outside the UK can acquire interest in property in this country. Most people know that many, if not most, of our leading companies now have foreign owners. I often raise the issue of Thames Water and its failure to pay adequate taxes, but it is, in effect, an Australian company and many of our other utilities are also run by foreign owners.

The reality is that my country, my city and my constituency are desperately short of homes. In particular, we are desperately short of homes to rent, for shared ownership and to buy at prices that are affordable to the average income earner or average family.

[Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on making pertinent and timely points that my constituents will recognise. Are not these properties being marketed abroad because of the type of property being built? High-value, high-rise properties are the ones being built and the fault lies with the planning authorities, the Mayor and some borough councils, such as my local one, which are giving permission for tens of thousands of the type of unit that appeals to Malaysian investors but is completely unaffordable to his constituents and mine?

[Simon Hughes]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. We do not always agree, but he makes a good point. Many of the properties that are being built are specifically built with the probability that they will be sold easily in the foreign market. These are not family houses; these properties are mainly flats, often studio, one-bedroom or two-bedroom flats—small flats—which will either be buy to rent, will be used occasionally by somebody from abroad who might come here a couple of times a year on business or will be just kept as an investment. There is evidence that a lot of these places have nobody in them at all; they are simply bought as an investment in this country and will be sold later at a higher price. I agree with the hon. Gentleman.

I checked the Office for National Statistics figures today. The average house price in the UK this year is £238,000, in London £414,000 and in my borough £389,000. Median employee earnings monthly in the UK are £505, in London £613 and in my borough £630. It will not surprise anybody in the Chamber to know that the gap between earnings and cost is growing and growing, and London is the place where the difference is greatest.

In London, just to keep pace with demand, best estimates suggest that we need at least 50,000 more homes each year, twice as many as are currently being built, and 20,000 a year more than the Mayor of London’s target. Central London, which for housing purposes often includes part of my borough and my constituency, is now an area where, according to the best figures, more than one third of all buyers are from overseas, and two thirds of all new-build property is sold to non-UK purchasers—a third of the total and two thirds of the new-build property. Over a third of properties are sold to companies from China and the Asia-Pacific region, more than one in 10 to buyers in the middle east and north Africa, and about 8% each to purchasers from western Europe, and to eastern Europe and the former Soviet states.

I understand why London is a popular place for investment—the value of the pound, the fact that it is outside the eurozone, very low interest rates, and the fact that it is a world-class city with English as its main language. According to Knight Frank, average prices in prime property—property priced at more than £1 million —in London have risen by 50% from 2009 and more than 7.5% in the past 12 months alone. Compared to New York or Singapore, it is clearly a much more successful investment. Some purchasers buy these homes to live in, some to let, some as a home additional to their principal home or as a third home, and some buy simply as an investment.

These purchasers are on to a good thing for them, and the developers who sell to them are on to a very good thing for themselves as well. Developers find foreign purchasers—this relates to the question from the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter)—often more willing than UK purchasers to buy straight from plan. They pay their money up front, which helps fund the development as a whole. London property commands good prices in the global market, so this maximises the returns and therefore the profits of the developers. It is a very successful response to international housing demand. It does not help the people I see in my surgery every week who want a first home or a home they can afford.

[Mark Pritchard]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way—he is being very generous. Does he agree that there would be a little more understanding of new home developments such as those being built by Barratt if the units, when they became available, were offered to everybody, wherever they live, at the same time, rather than some that are left over being offered to local British buyers?

[Simon Hughes]

This is a real issue. I shall put some suggestions to the Minister, of which I gave him notice earlier today, so I hope I am not taking him completely by surprise.

People who have lived here for five years, 10 years, 15 years or all their life now cannot find a place they can afford. More offensive, even if they see them, they suddenly discover that the properties have been offered for sale abroad and are not available, or by the time people in this country can get their finances together, somebody has bought the lot. That is an unacceptable practice. Free market economics is a good starting point for the global economy, but responsible Governments, including I hope those with my colleagues in Government, should always be willing to intervene in the market where there is good reason and where the market is not working for the purposes that are the priority. Meeting housing need is now the priority, not meeting global housing demand.

We cannot go on as we are. We do not have enough land to build on at a reasonable price, there is much too little building of affordable housing, and now there is increasing purchase by foreign owners of the property that does become available. We need more supply and we need to moderate the demand that is forcing up prices even more. The purpose of this debate is to put down a marker that there needs to be a response at central Government level, at London government level and at local government level as well. I am not the only person who thinks that. Colleagues across the House and in different sorts of constituencies share my view. Even if I cannot get all my wishes announced in the spending review next week, I hope that at the latest by the time of the Budget next year I can persuade colleagues to make the sort of changes we need. I hope also that I can get the two Select Committees—Treasury and Communities and Local Government—and the National Audit Office to look into the subject, because I know they have an interest and think they would do a good job.

We want a change of policy, a change of strategy. We want a big change in the number of affordable homes available for residents of these islands, and we want it now. I will give the Minister my shopping list now, so that he has time to respond.

I hope that work outside this place and by the Select Committees and the NAO will be helpful on this, because I would like the Government to compile a report on legislation passed elsewhere to tackle this problem. As I said, Singapore and Denmark have taken action in recent years, and I understand that Australia, Canada, Thailand and some states of the USA have done so, too. Those are not socialist republics; they are countries with free-market economies that understand they have to do something to look after the people within their shores, to whom they have an obligation.

I should be grateful if the Government, over the next few weeks, commissioned up-to-date research, using all the sources available, into the extent to which residential property acquired by individuals who are not domiciled or resident here or companies that are not registered here is: acquired for investment only and kept empty; occasionally used; occupied primarily by staff; a home other than the principal home; or rented out. If the information could be broken down by local authority and postcode, that would be helpful. This is not just a London issue; it affects the west midlands and many of the big cities in England and other parts of the UK.

There may be policy and tax changes we could make. We cannot discriminate between UK and other EU citizens on the basis of their citizenship—I understand that entirely. However, it seems to me that we could have differential stamp duty or council tax, or another form of acquisition or disposal tax, or an annual asset tax, on properties held by non-EU citizens or companies based outside the EU. Secondly, we could have differential council tax or other tax by category of use, so a second or third home or a company-let flat, for example, would be in different categories. I am less certain that this would be the answer to many of the problems, but we could have differentiation of tax or council tax by price, with the aim of adding an extra tax on the middle-ranking properties, which are the ones that our constituents want to buy. That might have adverse knock-on effects, so I am not categorically proposing that, but I think the idea should be considered.

I believe it would be possible to have priority bidding for rent, shared ownership or purchase for people who have lived in the area for a certain period. We could not do that by nationality, probably, but we could do it by length of residence. Councils are now allowed to give priority on their waiting lists to people who have lived in the area for a certain period, so surely we could do the same in the sale, shared ownership and rental sectors. We could require residential properties to be advertised in this country at the same time as or before they are advertised anywhere else. We could do what the London Docklands development corporation did, which is ensure that properties are initially offered locally. There would be legal questions to deal with, but we could consider it. Finally, we could give tax incentives to people or companies willing to invest in affordable housing for rent, shared ownership or sale at below-average prices, rather than give them only to those who want to build expensive properties. We could incentivise the right sort of investment.

We could pilot these proposals, or give powers to the Mayor or local authorities in London and elsewhere to try differential planning and council tax arrangements, to see the effects on the market. As the Mayor of London has suggested, we could ask the Government to make sure that any taxation—for example, stamp duty—generated in a particular local authority from a certain type of property goes into the housing fund for that local authority.

I am open to any solution that works. I hope that the Minister and his Department are open to helping us to tackle this major and growing concern to voters of all parties and none, and all our constituents. I do not think we can say that nothing can be done.

17:19

[The Minister for Housing (Mr Mark Prisk)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) on securing a debate on this important matter and on offering, as usual, a range of ideas. I received his shopping list—thankfully it was not confused with Mrs Prisk’s shopping list, which might have been awkward—and take it in exactly that vein, as a set of positive suggestions. It recognises some of the challenges, some of which I will seek to answer. I also undertake to reflect in detail on his list’s itemised elements, rather than seeking to do so in the remaining 11 minutes.

The right hon. Gentleman has a strong record of speaking eloquently and frequently about housing stress in London. I will preface my remarks by looking at the housing market as a whole and then focus on the question as it relates to London, because I think that is where the heart of the problem lies. For too long now, regardless of which party has been in government, our housing markets have been dysfunctional. From my political background, and my professional background as a surveyor, I think that this country has probably built only half the homes we need year on year for perhaps a generation.

As the right hon. Gentleman rightly said, that has caused a long-term housing shortage and, with it, significant social problems, and that is especially true in Greater London. That is why the coalition Government are determined to take a different approach. Our housing strategy seeks to be comprehensive and to address both supply and demand and both freehold and leasehold, and it seeks to start to reverse the loss of 421,000 affordable homes that, sadly, we saw under the previous Administration. It is why we are reforming the planning system to speed up the development process, why we are unlocking large sites to create lasting settlements, and why we are building over 170,000 more affordable homes. It is also why we are seeking to create a bigger and better private rented sector that gives tenants greater choice and quality.

At the same time, we are supporting demand for new homes through the Help to Buy equity loan scheme. Boosting demand matters, especially after the record lows of recent years. I believe that not just because I am a passionate supporter of home ownership, but because a rise in demand gives builders the confidence to accelerate building and can boost overall market supply, including of affordable homes. That is an important point about how the flow of cash and investment helps the market as a whole, a point I will return to in a moment.

On the specific question of foreign investment in housing, it is natural to look principally at London. We have to recognise that London, as the right hon. Gentleman correctly said, is a truly global city; perhaps it is the global city. It has not only the fastest growing economy and population in the UK, but immense international appeal. I think that Members on both sides of the House recognise that as a highly desirable position to be in.

London’s success is in part the result of our open and free markets. Being a global city brings many economic benefits, with wealth creation and inward investment in jobs. Only a week or so ago the Mayor announced the securing of £1 billion of Chinese investment in the area that used to be covered by the old London Docklands development corporation but is now an enterprise zone, which is a very welcome long-term investment. The preparedness of others to invest here is a vote of confidence both in this country’s current economic strategy—that of the coalition—and in London’s future. I think that that openness is also vital to the character of London. It is a diverse city with a fantastic range of influences and cultures, and that is something to be welcomed.

As a result of that, the housing market in London is quite different from the housing market across the rest of the country. Across the rest of the UK, domestic demand has suffered, with mortgage constraints and the difficulties builders have had in securing development finance, but in London the availability of foreign investment has kept development going. It has generated the cash flow that developers need to progress schemes.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned research. A recent report by the Greater London authority looked at barriers to housing delivery. It estimated that in prime London markets—the very highest—up to 75% of buyers are from overseas, and across London as a whole approximately a third of buyers are foreign. The report goes on to note that

“construction activity demands investor sales—many, if not most, major London residential schemes only commence due to the expectation of the sale risk being mitigated by the chance to sell to UK-based and overseas investors.”

We should also pay attention to what developers say. Tony Pidgley of Berkeley Homes recently said that to try to curtail foreign investment sharply is unrealistic, because it is only through such funding that Berkeley and others can build more homes and affordable homes. Before turning to the specific matters raised by the right hon. Gentleman, I will quote Tony Pidgley, who says:

“Basically most sites that Berkeley are building are a third affordable, a third goes abroad, and a third to the UK market”.

He goes on to say that without foreign investors,

“London would be worse off and we would have fewer affordable homes and fewer private homes.”

I say to the right hon. Gentleman that I totally understand the sense of frustration and challenge that local authorities and, indeed, local people may feel about this issue, but if we seek to curtail inward investment in a crude or ill-defined way I think we can both agree that it would lead to a significant set of unintended consequences.

[Simon Hughes]

I will be brief, because I know the Minister has other things to say. A report that is about to be published will show that, sadly, the figure given by Tony Pidgley of a third is much lower in reality, both in London and across the UK. Although that may be the theoretical quota, in my borough the figure is much lower and I fear that nothing like that is being delivered, because, to be blunt, companies get more money out of having fewer affordable homes.

[Mr Prisk]

Clearly local areas will differ, as will some builders, but what Mr Pidgley has said is reflected in some of the other builders’ remarks. We should not ignore them, but I take the right hon. Gentleman’s point.

[Mr Slaughter]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Prisk]

I am going to try to answer the points raised by the Member who secured the debate, if I may.

A number of people have said—indeed, it has been mentioned in this debate—that perhaps the majority of homes owned by foreigners lie empty. We have looked at the evidence carefully and Jones Lang LaSalle says that the vast majority of international buyers—85%—let property once purchased. There is, therefore, a benefit in that homes built in response to that demand often—in 85% of cases—go on to be let.

The right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark also asked whether wider research could be commissioned for London in particular and, having looked at his shopping list, I can see that he also wants some granularity. He will understand that this is a devolved matter in London, but I will certainly bring this issue to the Mayor’s attention to see what granularity is available beyond the conventions of the English housing survey and so on.

[Mr Slaughter]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Prisk]

I am running out of time and want to answer some of the questions asked by the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark, if I may.

The right hon. Gentleman raised the broader question of whether tax laws might differentiate in some ways. Property taxes such as stamp duty and land tax do not distinguish between UK and foreign nationals. That is partly because of EU laws, to which the right hon. Gentleman has alluded, but it is also partly because of significant administrative difficulties. Although he will understand that tax policy, as I am constantly reminded, is for the Treasury, I will nevertheless make sure that Treasury Ministers are aware of his suggestions and concerns.

The right hon. Gentleman also mentioned council tax differential rates, which we have discussed before. In April, having to listened to his concerns and those of others, we gave new powers to local authorities to establish an empty homes premium for long-term empty properties. Clearly, it is up to local councils how they do it, but I think that this is a power that is able to address many of the problems, perhaps in a simpler and more localised way than we thought. It is something that we will happily encourage, but as a localist Government we will not seek to impose it.

The right hon. Gentleman also mentioned foreign comparators. We certainly look at them, but we have to be careful to look not just at fiscal or planning arrangements but at the picture as a whole. Having looked at Hong Kong, I know that although it has made certain fiscal changes its difficulty is that prices are still rising.

I will respond to the right hon. Gentleman’s specific shopping list, but let me conclude by saying that I think there are perfectly understandable concerns about the potential impact of people from overseas buying homes in London. We should not, however, pretend that there are no benefits—I know that the right hon. Gentleman does not seek to do that. Inward investment has helped more homes to be built and it encourages confidence. We need a balance to be struck, but overall London benefits from being an open and diverse city, which both welcomes and, indeed, attracts investment from around the globe. I look forward to continuing this dialogue and to making sure that we continue to keep on top of what is a difficult and vexed issue that we hope to challenge.

Question put and agreed to.

17:29

House adjourned.

Ministerial Correction

Thursday 20th June 2013 Ministerial Corrections

Thursday 20 June 2013

Financial Transaction Tax and Economic and Monetary Union

Thursday 20th June 2013 Ministerial Corrections

The following is an extract from the response given by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) to the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) during the Financial Transaction Tax and Economic Monetary Union Debate on 18 June 2013.

[Greg Clark]

The US Government also have serious misgivings: the Treasury Secretary, Jack Lew, has said that, despite objections from financial and non-financial trade associations and Government officials in the United States, Canada, Australia, Japan, Korea and other countries regarding the global reach and negative impact of the proposal, their concerns remain unanswered.

[Official Report, 18 June 2013, Vol. 564, c. 790.]

Letter of correction from Greg Clark:

An error has been identified in the response provided during the Financial Transaction Tax and Economic and Monetary Union Debate.

The correct response should have been:

[Greg Clark]

The US Government also have serious misgivings and the Treasury Secretary, Jack Lew, has received a letter from Congressmen saying that, despite objections from financial and non-financial trade associations and Government officials in the United States, Canada, Australia, Japan, Korea and other countries regarding the global reach and negative impact of the proposal, their concerns remain unanswered.

Westminster Hall

Thursday 20th June 2013 Westminster Hall

Thursday 20 June 2013

[Mark Pritchard in the Chair]

Interpreting and Translation Services

Thursday 20th June 2013 Westminster Hall

[Relevant documents: Interpreting and translation services and the Applied Language Solutions contract, Sixth Report of the Justice Committee, Session 2012-13, HC 645, and the Government response, Cm 8600. Twenty-first Report of the Public Accounts Committee, Session 2012-13, The Ministry of Justice’s language service contract, HC 620, and the Treasury minute, Cm 8556.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting be now adjourned.—(Anne Milton.)

13:29

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard, and to have the opportunity to debate our report on the Applied Language Solutions contract, supplemented by the National Audit Office report. I am glad to see Members from all parties and different parts of the country here, including my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Ian Swales), a member of the Public Accounts Committee, which also considered the matter in the context of the NAO report.

Although that gives me pleasure, it gives me none to report that the subject of this debate is the procurement and management process undertaken by the Ministry of Justice. Serious flaws have been exposed in the Ministry’s procedures and policies; the process was a shambles. The contractual system for court interpreting, which came into operation at the end of last January, proved unsatisfactory from the outset and was subject to a boycott by many professional interpreters whose terms and conditions of employment were adversely affected. As we say in our report, that caused the adjournment or severe delay of numerous hearings and, in criminal cases, unnecessary remands into custody, with potential implications for the interests of justice.

One need not be an expert on court processes to understand the dangers to justice that can arise from inadequate interpretation. We acknowledged in our report that performance had improved markedly since the earliest days of the contract, but our verdict was not dissimilar to the Ministry’s admission in response to our report that

“performance…under the contract has not been of a satisfactory level”.

As I shall make clear a little later, on the available measures, performance has still not reached required standards; if anything, it has slipped back.

It is good practice, and my Committee’s practice, to look again and follow up the recommendations made in reports. I advise the Minister—a former Justice Committee member—that this debate is not the end of my Committee’s interest in the subject, and it will not be possible for the Ministry to escape parliamentary scrutiny after this debate.

[Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the excellent report produced by his Committee. The summary says:

“There was significant concern revealed in the consultation process that quality standards could be diminished by the imposition of a tiered system to enable a wider pool of interpreters, and by the introduction of lower levels of pay.”

Does he share my concern that that is evidence of trying to deliver an important service at the potential expense of quality? Does he think that his hon. Friend and mine, the Minister, should review and be prepared to revoke the system if it continues to be proven not to work?

[Sir Alan Beith]

I will return to how we proceed from here. I am tempted to comment that people always say that when it is proved that standards fell after big changes and that some of the predictions were fully justified. That should be a warning to the Government, as they engage in a number of other contracts. I will come back to that as well.

It is worth pointing out that the problems encountered by the Ministry in contracting for the work, while serious in themselves, also have implications for wide swathes of its other activities. The Ministry is putting out to contract 70% of rehabilitative services under the transforming rehabilitation proposals, £450 million in custodial services over the next six years and a large part of criminal legal aid, all of which will be the subject of contracts. I do not need to spell out that if things go wrong in those areas as they have in court interpreting, we face a multiple-train crash. Does the Ministry really have the capacity to do the kind of contracting on which many of its policy proposals are based? I am not arguing about whether it is a good or bad idea to contract out those things, but the Ministry must have the capacity to do so well and properly.

Before I turn to the substance of the report, I will mention another point of considerable concern to my Committee: the Government’s insistence that they acted reasonably in discouraging court staff from taking part in the online forum that we set up as part of our inquiry to seek personal experiences of interpretation standards in court. That was a retrograde step. We did something similar with prison officers. Many contributed to our online forum, and as a result, we produced a much better-informed report than we could otherwise have done. We did the same thing with court staff, but they were strongly pressed by the Government not to co-operate. That is deplorable. We shall continue to use such mechanisms where appropriate in our inquiries, not with any intention of getting civil servants to question policy, but to get a proper understanding of how it is working on the ground. If Departments repeatedly give that kind of non-co-operation injunction to their staff, they may find themselves in contempt of the House, and the whole House may seek to do something about it.

On the substance of our report, we recommended that the Ministry of Justice audit the amounts being expended on interpreter pay and travel and said that it might be necessary for the rate of pay for tier 1 interpreters —the most highly qualified—to be increased. We also said that the MOJ and Capita should prove that the framework agreement could attract, retain and deploy an adequate number of interpreters to meet the requirements of the courts and other agencies. We called on the professional interpreter community to work flexibly with the Ministry to find an acceptable way to restore their services to the justice sector.

In response, the Ministry introduced, with effect from May, a number of changes to the system of remuneration for interpreters, which it says amount to an average 22% increase in rates. Those changes involve mileage payments, cancellation fees, payment in 15-minute blocks rather than by the minute, payment in accordance with the qualification tier of the interpreter and a daily fee for incidental costs. We welcome those changes, but it is not yet clear that they will be enough to encourage many more interpreters to undertake work under Capita’s auspices, given the breakdown in relations between the Ministry and interpreters and the fact that many interpreters cleave to the view that the framework agreement is fundamentally flawed and cannot be salvaged.

The Ministry says in its response that it has met Professional Interpreters for Justice since late 2012, but goes on rather ruefully to say that it

“accepts that it will not always be possible to agree with the Professional Interpreters for Justice Group but seeks to maintain ongoing dialogue.”

I am not surprised that my hon. Friend the Minister should try to establish better relations—I would expect no less of her in going about things—but a lot more work clearly needs to be done if the professional interpreter community is to be won back.

The group has a different slant on the dialogue. It says that it was invited to a meeting with the Ministry’s interpretation project in March, at which it was presented with a package of proposed changes. It says that changes proposed at separate meetings by interpreters registered with Capita were rejected, and it does not accept that the Government’s changes will attract and retain interpreters.

The dialogue has been inauspicious from the outset. We commented that the Ministry

“did not have a sufficient understanding of the complexities of court interpreting work prior to initiating the procurement of a new service.”

We endorsed the NAO’s conclusion that the MOJ did not give sufficient weight to the concerns and dissatisfaction expressed by many interpreters, even though having sufficient numbers of skilled interpreters was essential to the new arrangements’ success, to return to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt).

A constructive dialogue requires both sides to participate with good will. When we published our report, we were encouraged by the Minister’s commitment to repairing relations, but can she explain why she thinks relations between her Ministry and the main organisations do not appear to have improved? On what evidence or other basis did the Ministry choose to make the changes on which it lighted? How does the Ministry plan to monitor those changes to ensure that they bring about the desired improvements in the service?

On the quality of interpretation, we agreed with the NAO that the tiered system should be independently evaluated and that interpretation quality standards should be independently reviewed. The MOJ said that it would take that forward and report back to us on progress. The Minister gave us some more information in a letter dated 18 June. I am grateful to her for that. In the letter, she says that steps have been taken to “scope and initiate” the quality assessment and, following discussion with interpreter groups, Capita and others, will commission the advice and report back to my Committee in the autumn. Perhaps that should have been got on with a bit quicker, because it is a pretty fundamental prerequisite for improving the service. I urge swifter progress.

The Ministry has claimed that the changes to terms and conditions that it has made

“will increase the number and availability of Tier 1 and Tier 2 interpreters and therefore reduce the need to use Tier 3 interpreters”.

In her letter of 18 June, the Minister says that it is too early to say whether this is happening, although she notes that Capita says that there is an increased interest in accepting bookings from their existing pool of interpreters. I should like the Minister to report back to my Committee in the autumn on the extent to which the expectations have been satisfied.

We noted in our report problems with performance data being compiled to demonstrate the effectiveness of Capita in fulfilling courts’ requests. This is fundamental to a contract: there must be adequate performance data. Again, this reads across to some other contracts that the Ministry will have.

There were ambiguities about, for example, what constituted a customer cancellation, which is an ambiguous category. Professional Interpreters for Justice subtracts cancellations from the total number of requests, as well as failures by the contractor to deliver, to arrive at a figure of 80% of requests having been fulfilled by Capita, which is way below the contract requirement.

Even on the Ministry’s figures, performance is falling well short of the 98% target, and it tailed off markedly in January. That cannot be regarded as satisfactory. It is clear that, despite the substantial extra investment that the company has made since taking over from ALS, Capita continues to perform below the required standard under the contract.

[Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)]

Has the Committee had an estimate of the impact of the cost of delays, extended custody and the performance off-contract on the expected savings that this outsourcing was meant to deliver?

[Sir Alan Beith]

No, but we think that the Ministry of Justice should have some reasonable estimates of those costs. Such estimates are quite hard to put together, but we have talked to people in the courts—judges, counsel, solicitors and court staff—and they all point to incidents, each of which involves significant additional costs, which clearly have to be offset against the savings.

[Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman share my concern that we are hearing from people, such as the chairman of the Bar Council, about the significant costs and money wasted when trials collapse because of failures under the terms of the contract? Does he share my view that perhaps we would be better served if we considered saving those costs, rather than embarking on a revolution in legal aid provision and putting all that at risk again?

[Sir Alan Beith]

The hon. Gentleman is an assiduous and welcome member of my Committee, but I would not make the rather rash claim that we could meet the savings that the Government want to make in the costs of legal aid out of getting this contract right. However, we should be getting it right and so far that has not been achieved.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

I am also a member of the Committee, so I am pleased that we are debating this report. When the Ministry comes back to our Committee, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it would be helpful if it came with an analysis of the amount of money lost by the non-attendance of interpreters, which my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald) mentioned, and the collapse of trials and all the costs that are loaded on to all three parties: the court, the prosecution and the defence?

[Sir Alan Beith]

I would welcome a reasonable estimate from the Ministry, but I should like it to devote most of its effort to moving from the bad situation that we have now to a better one. I would not want all its management to be occupied with collecting the figures, but if it starts to claim significant savings, I am afraid that we will all want to insist that some of those costs are set against those claims.

Quite a lot of off-contract booking is going on—courts have to do it to meet the need to go ahead with a trial —but we need more information because we do not know how extensive it is. Of course, that too is an extra cost item.

Interpreters’ organisations have been compiling dossiers of instances where court proceedings have been disrupted by failings in the interpretation service. Such information should be systematically captured by the Ministry. We recommended that there should be a user satisfaction measure, and the Ministry replied that it would discuss this with Capita and other partners. I should be grateful for an update on these discussions.

A lack of basic management information has contributed to the Ministry’s apparent inability to monitor and drive better performance. For example, there are costs of defendants being remanded in custody, additional legal aid costs and all the rest of it. We thought that the Ministry

“must get a better grasp of the costs of underperformance”.

I shall not quote the savings figures that the Ministry quotes, which are seriously at risk because of the additional costs involved.

The Minister could provide further clarification on how much of the expenditure of £13.3 million in the first year is accounted for by off-contract bookings. Perhaps she could let us have that information later, if not today.

We noted in our report that the problems arising in relation to the contract must have meant the Ministry’s incurring additional administrative costs as a result of the higher than expected level of oversight that has become necessary. The Ministry in its response gave a figure for staffing costs of the core project of £315,000 between January 2012 and March 2013, but it did not give an estimate of additional costs that it might have incurred.

We should not assume that there was some golden age under the previous arrangements for court interpreting. We concluded in our report that, despite clear administrative inefficiencies, there does not appear to have been any fundamental problem with the quality of services when sourced under the terms of the then national agreement. It is understandable that any Government would consider whether there were more efficient, cost-effective ways to provide the same service, but the principle must be to provide the same level of service. The Government signally failed to achieve that objective.

We said that there

“was clear potential for problems with ALS’ capacity to deliver on its promises which were not adequately anticipated or dealt with either by the Department or by the contractor itself”.

ALS was a small undertaking, visibly lacking the capacity to undertake anything as major as the entire national court interpreting provision.

The Ministry’s naivety at the start of the process appears to have been matched by its indulgence towards underperformance against the contract once the new arrangements came into operation. In introducing the new framework agreement, the Ministry has alienated many experienced court interpreters. The contract may have achieved a net book saving in its first year of operation, but it has not, on the available evidence, achieved any improvement in service to the courts. Indeed, on the information available to judge performance, which continues to be rather defective and limited, there has been a deterioration in performance and a negative impact on the ability of the courts to do their job properly.

The whole saga has been an inglorious one. It might almost have been constructed as a cautionary tale of what a Department should avoid in undertaking a procurement and contract management process. And this is a Department that intends to undertake several such processes, some of them much larger even than this one, so some lessons have to be learned pretty quickly. The standard of court interpretation needs to be restored, preferably by bringing back those whose experience can return the service to the standards that the courts used to expect.

13:48

[Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to enter this debate under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) on producing this report. I am not a member of the Select Committee on Justice or the Public Accounts Committee, and members of those Committees will have given far more detailed scrutiny to the issues covered in the report. However, a constituent of mine, Madeleine Lee, a court interpreter, told me in my constituency surgery in 2009 that a de facto pilot was going on in Greater Manchester, and she explained what the consequences would be, were it spread across the country.

All Members of Parliament diligently follow what our constituents wish, but when we are in government we have responsibility. I was Home Secretary at the time, but I spoke to the then Lord Chancellor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw). The previous system emerged from the Runciman royal commission after a scandalous miscarriage of justice due to the absence of interpreting services, and it was set up not too long ago, in the late ’90s. As the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed said, my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn accepted that the system was not perfect and that we needed to consider efficiency savings. We concluded that we would have to be very cautious about destroying something that, since Runciman, had given court interpretation a level of quality that it did not have before; that was largely the result of setting up the national register of professional service interpreters. I have followed the issue from a distance ever since.

As a former Minister, I have been at the rough end of several Select Committee reports in my time, but I have never known three reports—the National Audit Office memorandum, the Public Accounts Committee report and now the Justice Committee’s report—to be so consistent in their condemnation of a Government policy. A number of conclusions can be drawn from those reports. First, there were no fundamental problems with the original procedures. Secondly, the Ministry of Justice changed those procedures without understanding their complexities, or indeed the professionalism of the people providing the services. This is a caricature, but it seems that someone who knows a bit of holiday Spanish can now come in and do a job in the courts, which has proved to be disastrous. Thirdly, the MOJ awarded the contract to a company, ALS, that is totally incapable of fulfilling its requirements. Surely there can be little doubt about that. I do not think there are many people in this debate who will be arguing on the Government’s side, apart from the poor Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant).

The final conclusion is that justice and the right to a fair trial have been seriously compromised as a result of this debacle. The added dimension, which the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed mentioned, is that the MOJ sought to prevent a Committee of this House receiving first-hand testimony on the contract’s failings, which is a very serious allegation that the House must treat with due seriousness.

Following the damning series of reports, the Lord Chancellor’s latest letter to me—I have kept up correspondence on the issue since the 2010 general election —tells me that there has been a £15 million saving. Quality standards have diminished, the courts have made 6,417 complaints about poor standards, and 608 magistrates court trials and 34 Crown court trials were recorded as ineffective in 2012 because interpreters were not available, which is a 100% increase. There is a great deal of doubt about the £15 million figure, as the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed and others have suggested. We hear that 48% of cases are now dealt with outside the contract, and there are various other factors that make the £15 million figure questionable. Even if the figure is true, £15 million is the kind of small change that falls down the back of the sofas in the offices of Secretaries of State. Even if the measure has saved £15 million, the resultant chaos in the Courts Service and the destruction of the quality of what was a very highly regarded system surely does not justify that level of savings, and it is doubtful whether such savings have been made anyway.

I see that the Lord Chancellor’s Parliamentary Private Secretary, the hon. Member for Ilford North (Mr Scott), is in his place behind the Under-Secretary, who just happened to be in the Department when the music stopped. She was not in her present position when it started; I believe she was then a member of the Select Committee that has been scrutinising the matter.

Perhaps we would have made the changes, too. Who knows? Despite my discussions with the Lord Chancellor, we should not be trying to score party political points. In government, Ministers reach a stage where they see that the only way to salvage their reputation following a clearly big mistake is to accept that it is a big mistake and do something about it. The Government should pull out of the contract, negotiate with professional linguists and do all the things that should have been done beforehand. My conclusion, following the grand reports from different Committees, is that my constituent, Madeleine Lee, was right.

13:55

[Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr Pritchard. This issue is of particular interest to me, not because I am on the Justice Committee or because I am a former Home Secretary or anything like that, but simply because it was brought to my attention in the previous Parliament by constituents who worked in the interpretation service. They told me about the dangers of what was then the initial move towards such a system by the police service in Greater Manchester and some other police services across north-west England. It is a shame that we did not learn from the mistakes of the original contract with the police service and stop this before it started.

I thank two of my constituents, Marc Starr and Kasia Beresford, who have been particularly helpful on this issue over the years. Interestingly, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) mentioned Madeleine Lee, which is a name that rings many bells, as I have received many e-mails from her in recent times. I also pay tribute to the Select Committee and to my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) for conducting the inquiry and for ensuring we had this debate following the Government’s response. The issue is of great interest to many Members from across the UK.

I apologise to the Minister because some of my remarks may not be particularly friendly towards the Ministry of Justice. I appreciate that she was landed with this when she became a Minister, and that it was not of her doing. I appreciate that some of the things that have happened are certainly not a direct result of her being a Minister, but of course she is now the person responsible for dealing with the mess in which we find ourselves.

The Select Committee’s report is pretty damning. The report accuses the Department of gagging staff and stopping them from participating in the consultation, which the Committee suggests might be contempt of the House. Fortunately, it was able to get enough information from other sources for it not to want to pursue that matter. That prompts me to question what the Department had to hide. The report also pointed out that the Department was warned throughout its consultation that quality standards would dip due to the imposition of a tiered system and lower pay for interpreters. The report concluded that, although there were administrative efficiencies compared with the previous arrangements, there were no real fundamental problems with the quality of the service provided by members of the National Register of Public Service Interpreters with a diploma in public service interpreting. The national agreement, with a few issues, worked reasonably well.

In a nutshell, the system was not broken. The MOJ was warned that its proposals would cause problems, which certainly proved to be the case. When the Select Committee decided to investigate, the MOJ tried to stop staff assisting the inquiry. Frankly, that is not good enough.

In its response to the report, the Ministry of Justice admitted a problem with performance:

“We know that performance in the MoJ under the contract has not been of a satisfactory level. Many of the points raised in the Justice Committee’s report have already been acknowledged and acted on, and others are being actively taken forward. We have gone back to the Framework Agreement itself to see whether changes can be made which will impact beneficially on performance, alongside ongoing work in the Department to improve our own processes. We are not complacent and are continuing to challenge and resolve issues which affect performance.”

I argue, however, that the Department is being complacent.

The Government, according to their response,

“expect that the changes to interpreters’ terms will increase the number and availability of Tier 1 and 2 interpreters”.

The changes, however, were not supported by Professional Interpreters for Justice, the interpreters working for Capita or those with the tribunals service who attended meetings to discuss the changes. Will the Minister explain how she can be so certain that the changes will attract more well-qualified interpreters when 85% of well-qualified interpreters have made it clear that they will not work for Capita, because of the lowering of professional standards? Professional Interpreters for Justice made that clear back in March, and yet its advice, the responses to the consultation and my debate back in 2007 have been completely ignored.

As I said, the Select Committee report made it clear that nothing was fundamentally wrong with the quality of the service before the new contract was introduced. No one is suggesting that it was perfect or that improvements could not have been made, but fundamentally it worked well. No one has seriously tried to defend the changes on the basis of driving up standards; they have always been about saving money.

The Justice Committee report recommended that the Department be clearer about the true costs of the contract. The Department, in its response, claimed that the framework agreement had made significant savings over the first year of the contract, but it failed to provide any evidence to back up that claim. The Government’s response recognises that certain costs are difficult to calculate, admitting:

“Reasons for a hearing adjournment are not routinely recorded, so it is difficult to identify adjournments for interpreting problems. However, we would expect any difficulties with interpreting to be raised through the complaints system by staff.”

If so, how can the Minister be certain that savings have been made? The simple answer is that it is impossible to be certain whether any savings have been made under the contract.

In reality, the savings claimed by the MOJ do not include the costs of court delays, case adjournments, repeated remands in custody for offenders and all other related expenses of underperformance, including those of court clerks who have booked interpreters outside the contract because of Capita’s poor service—that goes on, and it goes on a lot. Has the Department made any assessment of such costs? If not, how can the MOJ stand by the claim that it has made significant savings in the first year of operation? I simply do not see how it can. Finally on cost, the Department estimated the staffing costs of liaising with Capita and overseeing performance at £315,000 between January 2012 and March 2013. Will the Minister confirm whether those costs are being reimbursed by Capita? How much will the ongoing costs be of ensuring that its performance continues to be thoroughly scrutinised?

We are not only talking about money; we must not forget justice and access to justice. In giving evidence, Mr Atkinson of the Law Society stated that while miscarriages of justice would occur infrequently, they were possible. Even one miscarriage of justice is one too many, but perhaps more concerning was his comment that

“people are spending time in custody for no reason other than the lack of an interpreter.”

Again, that is not acceptable.

As the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle said, 608 magistrates court trials and 34 Crown court trials were recorded ineffective in 2012, as a result of interpreters being unavailable—a 100% increase on the previous year. Does the Minister consider that acceptable? Furthermore, will the Minister tell the House how many defendants have remained in custody as a result of ineffective trials that are a direct result of an interpreter not being available?

I suspect that the Minister will tell me that she cannot answer any of those questions—that the data are not easily available and she does not know the answer. If so, she must accept that her Department cannot justify continuing to defend the contract, and that we must look seriously at cancelling it.

14:05

[Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

I, too, congratulate the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) on initiating the debate and on the report of his Select Committee.

The right hon. Gentleman is known in the House for his understatement, and that is typified by his description of the system under the new contract as “shambolic”. That is as over-kind a description as it is possible to find. All the available information shows that the system is not only failing abjectly, but damaging seriously the administration of justice in this country. In addition, it is costing the taxpayer huge sums of money in abandoned trials and in other ways.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

Does my right hon. Friend not think that the lesson can be drawn wider than for the translation services alone? The Ministry of Justice and others are obsessed with the contract culture. It distances Ministers from the immediacy of decisions and, at the other end, leaves the public and the victims in a much worse situation, with much less accountability on the delivery of services.

[Sir Gerald Kaufman]

I of course agree with my hon. Friend. The problem is that the Ministry of Justice has been administered with, on the one hand, a great deal of indolence, which is the charming characteristic of the previous Secretary of State—for which we are all fond of him—and, on the other, miscalculation. I offer my sympathy to the Minister, who has the awful problem of responding to the debate convincingly and at the same time honestly, but I point out that interfering with a system that works for ideological reasons is as barmy a reason as there ever was. If I have learned one rule during my time in the House it is, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” The system was not broken—it worked perfectly well—and, because of an obsession of the kind that my hon. Friend described, we now have an unbelievable mess.

A number of my constituents have approached me about the matter, including Ali Hetherington, who has provided me with a good deal of information. She told me that the Ministry of Justice’s own performance figures indicate that levels of complaints and the number of ineffective trials relating to interpreter provision have risen steeply and shown no sign of abating. The Minister talks about savings of £15 million. The statistics provided to her by her officials cannot be verified or established in any way. First, we do not know what the savings are. Secondly, the calculation of those savings does not seem to take into account the huge sums of money that have been lost through failed and delayed trials and other failings in magistrates and Crown courts caused by taking on Capita to carry out the job.

Quality standards for court interpreters have been so dramatically lowered that the substandard service provided by Capita is in no way comparable with the quality of previous provision.

Let us look at the record. Capita took over the contract on 30 January 2012. Not once has it achieved its target for interpreter requests. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) said, there have been 6,417 complaints and more than 600 court trials have been abandoned over a 12-month period due to lack of interpreters, and the Ministry of Justice calls that a dramatic improvement. I would love to know what it would call a deterioration. Last month, Capita provided only 48% of required interpreters. Throughout the period of the contract, it has operated in breach of its contract. It has doubled the number of ineffective trials, primarily due to interpreter incapability, compared with a stable level in the previous five years.

I have been provided with a dossier of evidence, which no doubt other right hon. and hon. Members have seen. The indictment is appalling. We are talking about the justice system, and people being put on trial and being found guilty or not guilty. We are talking about what happens to their lives and the lives of their victims as a result of failed trials. In the dozens of examples in the dossier, again and again, interpreters have turned up late or not at all, or they did not speak the language they were hired to interpret. In an example on page 16, an interpreter who spoke Bengali turned up to deal with someone in the court who spoke the Congolese language of Lingala. Not only was the language wrong, but it was spoken on the wrong continent. That happens again and again.

I will give some more examples from the dossier. In one, a barrister said that in

“court this morning a Lithuanian interpreter…turned up for a Slovakian prisoner”.

It was just as well they both spoke Polish. In another case, there was no interpreter for a Kurdish appellant. The court asked for one, but it was not provided, and the case was adjourned to the following week. In a London court, a sex trial failed to proceed because the interpreter failed to attend. The waste of money was £10,000, and the witnesses were devastated. The dossier also states that, in another case, there were no

“Punjabi interpreters in London so”

one came from Derby, five hours late and left before seeing the client in the cells after the hearing. It would be difficult to invent such incidents, yet they happened and we are told that it is all part of a dramatic improvement. Another example came from Birmingham Crown court:

“Earlier this month I worked at one of my local police stations (they are not with Capita). The duty solicitor was appalled by the quality of Capita interpreters. He told me that apparently those who are Tier 3 cannot speak English, one Capita interpreter sent his brother-in-law to Birmingham Crown Court for a trial, because he couldn't make it himself...I got the impression that the brother-in-law wasn't even an interpreter. Apparently the judge was furious”.

If there is one thing this country should be proud of above all else it is the administration of justice. People’s lives, the state of law and respect for the law all depend on sound administration of justice. Over and again, that is not happening because of the contract. Will the Minister answer the following questions? First, how long does the contract last? Secondly, how much does it cost? Thirdly, has there been any attempt to calculate the cost to the court system of the huge number of Capita’s failures in what, for want of other words, I will call its interpretation system, and what penalties are there?

The view of many people who have been damaged by the system is that the contract should be ended immediately. How can it be ended and why have the Government not done so? It is a sad day for this country that the system of justice of which we are so proud is so flawed as a result of the Government’s action, which should never have taken place.

14:16

[Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)]

It is a pleasure, Mr Pritchard, to serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) not only on his diligent chairmanship of his Committee but on his comprehensive introduction to the subject today. I am a member of the Public Accounts Committee, which considered the matter on 6 December 2012 and drew some shocking conclusions.

Life on the Public Accounts Committee involves meeting twice a week and each time hearing about very different situations, usually a litany of failure or ineffectiveness. As a result, we become a little cynical or even punch drunk. However, even by those standards, the hearing on 6 December 2012 was appalling. I am reminded by the large number of people in the Public Gallery today—no doubt some of them are personally interested in the matter—that we had a large attendance in the Public Gallery on that day. It was one of the few hearings I remember when there was shaking of heads in the Public Gallery as Ministry officials responded to the Committee. That is rare, but it happened repeatedly on that day, which says something about the officials’ complacency,

Our Committee found, not surprisingly given what we have heard, that the outsourcing of interpreter services was terribly mismanaged. We concluded that the Ministry lacked management information on the previous use of interpreters and therefore did not have a clear understanding of the requirements when contracting out the service. It did not know how much it was already spending on interpreters, or even how many interpreters were required or in what languages. As a result, the system it selected was driven by bidders’ proposals rather than the actual requirements.

Applied Language Solutions, the company that was awarded the contract, was clearly incapable of delivering on such a large contract, yet it was handed £42 million a year to cover the whole country, despite a credit rating report to the Ministry recommending that ALS should not have been awarded a contract of more than £l million. Departmental officials could not adequately explain to the Committee why it had ignored that advice. It is one thing to make such a striking error in the first place, but the Committee also found that the Ministry failed to penalise ALS effectively under the contract. Its penalty was only £2,200, and there was no penalty for the first four months when its performance was at its worst. Risible levels of penalties and low expectations of performance obviously allow private companies to get away with over-promising and under-delivering.

The Ministry should draft and implement future contracts to minimise transitional problems by piloting and rolling out new systems gradually, and incentivising contractors to meet contractual requirements from the outset—for example, through the robust use of penalties. Will the Minister tell us what penalties have been levied on Capita for failure to deliver since it took over the contract? ALS, of course, was handsomely rewarded for its failure. It sold the business on to Capita for £7.5 million only 10 months after winning the contract. As we often find on our Committee, the public sector had no say in that reassignment and certainly got no financial benefit from the on-selling. That is something we see constantly in the public sector: it is now a business to win a public sector bid or a PFI contract and then trade it on. That is how companies really make money, and ALS is a good example of it.

The Ministry estimated that it would need access to 1,200 interpreters to meet its requirements. However, it allowed the contract to go live when the supplier had only 280 interpreters ready to work under the terms of the contract. The Ministry believed that many more interpreters were available to work, in line with contractual obligations, than was actually the case, because it received over-optimistic assurances from ALS and there was confusion over definitions of what important terms such as “registered” actually meant. The Ministry was also unable to confirm that all interpreters working under the contract had the required qualifications, experience and enhanced Criminal Records Bureau checks.

The company was only able to meet 58% of its bookings, initially, against a target of 98%, which is entirely unacceptable. As previous speakers have said, it is not only about the mechanics of the contract; we are talking about people’s lives and life-changing decisions that may be made on their behalf. People who needed the services have paid a heavy price for the Ministry’s incompetence. We have seen a sharp rise in the number of ineffective trials, as others have said. A trial was recently cancelled in my area because, unbelievably, the chosen interpreter was on trial in a neighbouring court at the same time. Extra costs for the Ministry are then incurred by unnecessary trial postponements and delays. Those costs have not been revealed but they will almost certainly be far more than the money saved on the contract, and I urge the Ministry to measure the waste in the courts system caused by the problem.

Whatever value-for-money considerations drove the original decision will now bear little relation to what has actually happened. It seems certain that there has been a net cost rather than a net benefit to the justice system. In short, the Public Accounts Committee found that the process descended into total chaos, and that almost everything that could go wrong, did go wrong. I hope that the Ministry will follow up the recommendations of the PAC, the Justice Committee and the National Audit Office in order to clean up the mess. Given the large potential contracts that the Ministry is looking to award, it has a lot to do to convince the public that it has learnt the lessons, and that contracts such as those involving legal aid and rehabilitation—

[Sir Alan Beith]

Before my hon. Friend concludes, I wanted to put this point to him, which is not always recognised or understood by people. What has happened in this case, as is proposed in the case of legal aid, is that instead of outsourcing to a very large number of small, usually one-person businesses and making an assessment as to whether they are capable of doing it, the whole process of obtaining interpreters has been outsourced. It has been done on such a large scale that few organisations in the country would be able to do it.

[Ian Swales]

My right hon. Friend makes a valuable point, which is of great concern to the Public Accounts Committee. We seem to have a number of Government Departments that—I suppose it is belt and braces—are making the outsourcing, or contracting-out process, so complicated that now only four or five companies can win the bid. The whole job is how a bid is won and not what the service is, because frequently the people who win the bids do not do the work. Eddie Stobart will not be providing legal aid; its expertise is winning a Government bid. That is the almost farcical situation that we have now got into. The Ministry needs to learn the lessons from that process, particularly as it seems to be about to do some very similar things on a much bigger scale.

One of the other issues that we have—we use the expression on our Committee “following the public pound” —is that the more this type of thing happens, the less access the National Audit Office has to the people who are doing the work. If the services are run by the Department, the NAO can be all over them, but typically, the contracts do not provide transparency or access, so our auditors are unable to get into the key providers.

In summary, the Minister needs to convince us about the lessons learnt, and about what improvement actions will be taken. I feel—not my Committee but I, personally—that a lot of scrutiny by a lot of people should take place before we walk into the same trap again, and I fear that the Public Accounts Committee may have a lot more work coming down the road towards it.

[Mark Pritchard (in the Chair)]

Before I call John Mann, to be helpful, I just say that I intend to start the wind-ups at 2.30 pm.

14:25

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

In three minutes, I will summarise my concerns for the Minister and the Chamber. I used to own a large interpreting company, and I looked at this form of interpreting and whether, even on a micro scale, it was possible to break into that market. It is not, because it is not possible to manage quality control. With other forms of interpreting, a range of techniques can be used; anyone can work through what the control mechanisms on quality should be, if they know what they are about. When it comes to this form of interpreting, that is not possible. Capita—or any other large conglomerate—cannot possibly manage quality. By definition, it does not know what the quality is, because it cannot employ the people who know what the quality is. I do not have the time to go through how techniques to do that can be devised for other forms of interpreting, but that is how I grew my business, and I grew it to a very large one.

This is nonsense, regardless of Capita, and we know how bad Capita is from the shambles that it made of the miners’ compensation scheme, when, again, it did not have the managerial experience. That was something that could have been managed, in theory, but it was hopeless. Managing quality cannot be done by a large corporate of that scale; it is not simply about Capita.

Also, the real flexibility needed in providing these services involves knowing the people because, in essence, there is a trade-off—a negotiation. The employer will say, “I desperately need you tomorrow, because we suddenly have this case”—or this prisoner, or whatever else—“and you have to do it, because I have no other option. X, Y and Z are not available; you will have to cancel your hospital appointment and do it.” That trade-off in the real world, with real people, works. Trying to put a conglomerate in charge never works, and that is why, even on a small-town basis, my company decided that it was not worth approaching Government to suggest that we attempt to run part of the system and contract in the interpreters. It is not possible, aside from the other issues of whether a company is any good or not.

That is the fundamental issue that the Ministry of Justice and the Minister need to address. They do not know what they are talking about, and they have created this system. Whoever runs it, it will not work, and it cannot work. Even if it continued on a mediocre basis, quality cannot be assured—ever. That is a fundamental problem for British justice, and it is one that the Minister needs to address. [Interruption.]

[Mark Pritchard (in the Chair)]

Order. I remind the public that we do not allow clapping in Westminster Hall.

14:29

[Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

You have ruined the round of applause at the end of my speech, Mr Pritchard. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon.

If the Minister did not know at the beginning of the debate how important this issue was, she will now, from the quality of the debate and from the contributions from Members on both sides of the House, including from very senior Members of the House; and whereas it is right to say that she did not preside over the inauguration of what the Chair of the Select Committee, the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), has called a shambles, she has been defending that shambles since she was appointed, so she does need to give some clear and full answers today.

Included in the contribution from the Chair of the Select Committee was the worrying information, which is in the report, that there was interference with the inquiry by the Ministry of Justice to prevent the fullest account of what has happened coming to light. Perhaps the Minister would like to address that and say whether she wishes to see that there is no repetition of it in the future. It is difficult not to conclude that the reason for it was that the Ministry did not want the full facts of the contract to emerge. I am delighted to hear that this is not the end of the matter for the Select Committee, because it not only has severe implications, as many hon. Members have said, for the quality and the standard of justice in our courts, but it has implications for the Ministry of Justice’s generally shambolic tendering processes.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) said that in his experience, and looking at the three substantial reports from the NAO, the Justice Committee and the PAC, he had rarely seen such an indictment. My right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) quoted some, but only some, of the examples of failure. The dossier from which he was reading is only one of several dossiers about hundreds of individual cases that have been prepared. I was grateful for those contributions, and grateful also for the contributions from the hon. Members for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech), and for Redcar (Ian Swales), and my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann), who brought to the debate their own experience, either from their private life or from the Committees on which they have served.

A number of Members wanted to take part in the debate, and what their contributions come to, in summation, is the anatomy of a disaster. The Ministry set out to save relatively small amounts of money; I shall explain why I use that phrase. Some Members—certainly Members on the PAC—will have seen the interrogation by the Chair of the PAC, my right hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge), of the senior responsible officer, who had not read the report and was not aware of the fact that when a £42 million contract was let to ALS, it was subject to a £1 million limit. He had not read that because he thought that it was de minimis and below his estimable gaze, and things went from bad to worse in that interrogation.

There appears to have been no assessment of the risk in this case. There has been contempt for the way in which professional interpreters should be dealt with. I am very grateful for the way in which professional interpreters have assisted us. I particularly mention Geoffrey Buckingham of the Association of Police and Court Interpreters, but I am also referring to many of the organisations that make up Professional Interpreters for Justice. They have been prepared to brief hon. Members at length on what is going wrong in our courts every day. The only party that appears not to wish to listen to that is the Ministry of Justice, which is why we have had the meltdown in our courts during the past 18 months.

Let me deal first with the issue of costs. I do not expect to get an answer from the Minister on costs, although many hon. Members have asked her about them. I have been trying to get answers to these questions for months through parliamentary questions and Freedom of Information Act inquiries. Let me tell Members what my latest inquiries have gained me. I asked the Ministry to provide the information on wasted costs in courts, and it said that it would not do that, although it could, because it was too expensive. I am appealing that decision, because it seems to me that the Ministry could simply contact each court and ask it to supply that information as raw data, and my office could collate that. Failing that, I asked whether the Ministry would provide me with the e-mail addresses of the country’s courts, so that I could undertake the exercise myself, and it said, wrongly, that that information was available publicly. It is not available publicly, so I am appealing that as well. The fact that the response to one of those inquiries was addressed to Mr Safranov and the other one was unopenable and caused my computer to crash only confirms that the Ministry is either unable or unwilling to provide the information because it knows how devastating it is likely to be.

What we do know—these are in part estimates but also in part statistics—is that about 50% of the requirement for interpreters is being fulfilled through the Capita contract. We know that after 500 days, the alternative system—courts finding their own interpreters—is still in effect. We know that whereas the Ministry claims that from a 58% starting point, Capita’s performance has got better, which is not much of a claim, in fact it got worse again from the middle of last year—it does not acknowledge that. I think that my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton, gave the figures for the trials that have been aborted—more than 600 in the magistrates court and more than 30 in the Crown court over that period.

Those are appalling figures, but it should not be up to any Member of the House to go away and find out that information. That information should be made available, and if the Minister does not have it available, perhaps she could undertake today to give a clear answer about the costs of the failure of the ALS-Capita contract. They include, of course, not only the costs from wasted court time, but the costs from unnecessary remand, the costs to the Crown Prosecution Service and the costs to the Prison Service.

In relation to the impact, I will not read out a great swathe of examples from the dossiers that have been prepared, but they range from the hugely serious to the almost comic. Examples include interpreters who cannot translate the word “guilty”; an attempted murder case in which the interpreter had received no training and did not appreciate the need to translate everything; an interpreter who chatted to witnesses about the case, causing a mistrial after 12 days; and a Crown court trial that was postponed because there was no rare language interpreter, the rare language being Polish—the second most commonly spoken language in the UK. This is going on now.

There was the very serious quadruple murder case at Nottingham Crown court last month. The BBC report stated:

“The failure of an interpreter to show up for a murder suspect’s court appearance has been described as a ‘complete disgrace’ by a judge…No Mandarin interpreter was available, and Nottingham Crown Court heard it was ‘not worthwhile’ for one to turn up”—

according to Capita—

“as they would ‘not make enough money’.”

That was described by the hon. Member for Northampton North (Michael Ellis) as the service being “out of control”. I wonder whether the Minister agrees with her colleague’s view on that matter. A murder case is going on today at Birmingham Crown court for which no Capita interpreter—certainly at the time when I was briefed, early this morning—had turned up, and that case is therefore also in jeopardy.

I do not think that I have to elucidate for Members at this debate how serious these matters are, not just in terms of cost but in terms of the administration and execution of justice. I am not being pompous in saying that these matters go not just to the heart of the Administration, but to the heart of justice itself.

I have with me the translation of an article from Lithuanian, and because it was done by someone on the National Register of Public Service Interpreters, it is certified and I trust it as a translation. It is from a Lithuanian website and is telling people about the interpreting service in this country. It quotes a Lithuanian interpreter in the UK as saying this about dealing with clients:

“We just advise them to tell the truth about how everything happened. For example, how and where they went to steal”.

The most fundamental part of an interpreter’s job is not to interfere in the process of justice—not to do the solicitor’s or the barrister’s job and certainly not to give the client legal advice or advice on how to conduct themselves, yet that appears to be the way in which these matters are routinely conducted.

In the few moments left to me, I would like to deal with where we go next. I do not think that the case against this contract has to be made any further; I think that we have to say, “Where do we go now?”

The MOJ is in a parlous state, in terms of letting contracts; its complete reliance on payment by results; what it is doing with the probation service; and what it is threatening to do with the privatisation of the entire Courts Service. I read in the technical press this week that a £300 million MOJ desktop and laptop support contract has been postponed, reportedly after the four most serious contenders had already spent millions bidding. That is the computer contract for the entire court, prison and probation system, which has been in planning for some years and which has now simply been pulled. We do not know why; perhaps the Minister will tell us. The point is that there is no coherence to the contract letting process in the MOJ and the contract is perhaps the clearest example of it. It is also one of the smallest contracts that it has let, and I fear for what may now happen.

So what should now happen? First, the Government need to stop being in denial about the failure of the contract. They need to stop saying that there has been a dramatic improvement when the situation is getting worse. They need to stop misrepresenting what they say about the view of professional interpreters. In their response to the Select Committee, they claimed that the slight amelioration of conditions was something that had been welcomed. Nothing could be further from the truth, and it is clear in the minutes of the meetings between the Minister, officials and interpreters that the terms being offered do nothing to meet the concerns of the professional interpreters or to adequately compensate them. Until the Minister realises that and begins to address that matter, the contract will continue to fail.

What interpreters want is the reinstatement of the national agreement; proper—not excessive, but fair—remuneration and conditions of service; legislation to protect the title of registered public service interpreter, so that there will no longer be the types of extraordinary cases that we have heard examples of this afternoon; and to work with the Government to establish a regulatory professional body that is robust and rigorous in its approach, enabling interpreters to provide quality interpreting services to public bodies. They do not seem extreme or unreasonable claims or ambitions.

There is a break clause in the contract. The Government could—and should—act now to suspend while they determine how they can properly address the concerns raised. In my opinion, there is now sufficient evidence that the contract with Capita should not continue.

I will stop now, because I want to give the Minister sufficient time to reply to all the points that have been raised. She is a courteous Minister, but she tends to read from her civil servants’ brief, rather than answering the points raised in debate. As we have a full house today and interpreters are present who have come to hear the Government’s current stance, I hope we will hear about some progress and movement towards a fair deal for interpreters, which is important, because they are professional people whose livelihoods are at stake, and that we can have within the courts of England and Wales what we used to take for granted. Certainly when I was in practice, I would take it for granted that interpreters would be competent, efficient, present, and able to discharge their duties.

[Mark Pritchard (in the Chair)]

Minister, as is convention, I intend to call the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) to make some concluding remarks for two or three minutes, if he wishes to do so, before the end of this debate.

14:43

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mrs Helen Grant)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Pritchard. I genuinely welcome the opportunity to listen to the debate. I shall do my very best to respond to the issues raised today and to the important report of the Justice Committee.

I would like to affirm my Department’s appreciation of the services provided to the justice system by interpreters, many of whom I can see in the Chamber today. They ensure fairness in courts and tribunals; they encourage confidence in the justice system; and they are a vital part of the service that is provided. It is well known, however, that the old system was not ideal. It was inefficient, inadequate and did not provide good value for money. Those issues were noted by the National Audit Office in its report. The new contract and framework agreement were developed to address, as far as possible, those inadequacies. The reality is that we could no longer afford to reward people in a way that bore no relation to the levels of work that they carried out. The National Audit Office recognised that important reality, too.

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mrs Grant]

Let me make some progress, and I will give way later.

Remuneration now more closely reflects the work being undertaken and is more closely aligned to the rates on offer for similarly qualified people in other public services. We do not deny that there were teething problems during the early stages of the new contract, and as the Ministry said in its response to the Justice Committee’s report, the initial performance was not satisfactory. Contingency plans were put in place quickly and had a direct effect. Disruption was kept to a minimum; we pushed Capita to improve matters urgently; and there was a significant outlay of investment on its part to improve services.

In the year 30 January 2012 to 31 January 2013, there were more than 131,000 requests for language services, covering 259 different languages, and the overall success rate was at 90%. That is a significant improvement on the 67% successful booking rate in February 2012. The number of complaints received, as against the number of bookings made, has fallen significantly. From February 2012 to August 2012, complaints fell from 10.6% to 1.7% in criminal courts; from 6.3% to 0.8% in civil and family courts; and from 19.2% to 5.6% in tribunals.

We take our responsibilities seriously, and we have ensured that each complaint is investigated. As has been said during the debate, lessons must be learned. I can assure hon. Members that lessons truly are being learned.

[Ian Swales]

A 90% success rate can also be described as a 10% failure rate. Can the Minister remind the House what success percentage was expected in the contract? On the point I made in my speech, what fines have Capita had for failing to meet the standards of the contract?

[Mrs Grant]

The ideal success rate is 98% and I believe the fines were approximately £1,400 or £1,500. I can get that figure for my hon. Friend, but 98% is what we are aiming at and what we are determined to achieve. I am confident that we will.

We have acknowledged and acted on many of the points rightly raised by the Justice Committee, the National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee, and we have genuinely gone right back to the contract to see where changes could benefit performance. We are not complacent; we continue to meet the challenges head on. For the first time, we can honestly say that we have a system that delivers a sustainable service and includes easily quantifiable standards—a system in which people in the justice sector can have confidence. Improvements have been made, but we have more work to do and we will endeavour to do it.

I would like to respond to some of the key aspects of the Justice Committee’s report. Many questions have been asked of the Government today, but I will do my best to respond to a number of the specific issues raised, starting with remuneration. The framework agreement between the Ministry and Capita has allowed us to make significant savings of some £16.7 million in the first year. Such savings are much needed in the current financial climate, but I recognised that the savings were affecting performance and we therefore ploughed an estimated £2.9 million of them back into the system. As I announced in the House on 25 April, the Department has amended the terms of the contract with Capita to increase remuneration for interpreters. The terms now include cancellation fees and greater rewards for more highly qualified interpreters.

[Mr Leech]

Does the Minister accept that the vast majority of interpreters who currently refuse to work for Capita have made it clear that they will continue to refuse to do so?

[Mrs Grant]

I am afraid I do not accept that. We do not have supply problems at the moment. The reality of the situation is that we are fulfilling contracts. Our changes equate to an average increase of 22% in remuneration rates, which will attract new and retain existing good-quality interpreters.

Regarding stakeholders, we continue to discuss developments with interpreters and with Capita. There has been open and frank dialogue between the Ministry and the Professional Interpreters for Justice group, and we seek to maintain a productive dialogue. We have a common interest in ensuring that language is not a barrier to justice, and that shared vision was clear to me at a meeting with the Professional Interpreters for Justice group that I chaired at the end of 2012. I recognised the commitment, the concern and the care.

In relation to quality, the contract allows for a greater range of acceptable qualifications and experience than previously, but there are, of course, suitable safeguards. All foreign language interpreters must provide evidence of their qualifications before they can undertake assignments, qualifications which in many instances are the same as those required by the National Register of Public Service Interpreters.

Tiering interpreters according to their skills is the right approach to delivering a sustainable system. Courts and tribunals expect as a minimum a tier 1 or tier 2 interpreter for a hearing, and that has been set out in staff guidance. There is, however, flexibility, and very occasionally the court or tribunal, together with the judge, can be asked to decide if the complexity of the case would allow for the appointment of a tier 3 interpreter. Our changes to remuneration should also attract more interpreters to tiers 1 and 2.

I accept the Justice Committee’s recommendation that a quality criterion within the framework should be independently evaluated, and the Ministry is initiating that work and will be in a position to update the Justice Committee in the autumn. I want to make it crystal clear, however, that it is the role of the service provider—namely, Capita—to ensure that those who work within the framework meet the required standards.

[Dr Huppert]

This matter has been raised with me by a number of constituents who have been affected both as interpreters and through the legal system. The Minister is right that things are not as disastrously bad as they originally were, but how will she ultimately decide whether the whole thing simply is not fixable? What test will she apply?

[Mrs Grant]

With respect, I do not think that we need to do that. I have no intention of being arrogant. I used to work in the system as a lawyer in an edgy London borough. We used interpreters regularly, and the system was not good. It was expensive and unpredictable, notwithstanding the fact that many of the interpreters we used were outstanding. The system needed to change, and it has. It needs to be noted, as I have already said, that we do not have supply problems at the moment. Where there have been problems, they have tended to involve the more challenging and unusual languages. We have also saved a considerable amount of money, which is welcome in these very difficult financial times.

With regard to performance data, the Committee raised issues about the clarity of our published performance figures, and I can confirm that the latest statistics were published on 28 March in accordance with the guidance issued by the UK Statistics Authority.

On cost savings, which several hon. Members have mentioned, we estimate that the cost of interpreters to the Ministry was previously around £30 million per annum. Based on cautious assumptions, we have made savings of about £16.7 million, against an expected forecast of £12 million, and as I have stated, we have invested £2.9 million back into the system, to make the contract sustainable.

[Dr Huppert]

I understand the drive to save money, but can the Minister be clear whether that £16.7 million saving takes into account the extra costs for cases that have had to be rescheduled, delayed or scrapped?

[Mrs Grant]

If my hon. Friend will bear with me, I will come to that point—I am barely halfway through and will go on for a fair bit longer.

The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter), and my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) talked about participation in the online survey. As the Ministry of Justice had co-operated fully, we took the view that it would not be appropriate to invite court staff to submit further evidence via the online forum set up by the Select Committee. We took that action because the civil service management code and the Osmotherly rules state that officials

“should not take part in research projects or surveys designed to establish their personal views on Government policies”.

We considered it right and proper to follow those rules.

The right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) referred to the adequacy of the previous system. Setting aside my own experience, I can say that the system was inefficient because an MOJ audit found it to be risky, and the National Audit Office agreed that it was inadequate and did not provide good value for money.

The right hon. Gentleman also referred to due diligence, and I can tell him that the procurement process was fair and competitive and that due diligence checks were carried out. However, lessons must be learned from the comments made by the Justice Committee and the NAO, and those from our own assessment. Along with other hon. Members, he raised the suitability of ALS. ALS had a background in the sector, and we felt that it had the capacity to expand to meet our needs, but, of course, that was not the case.

A number of Members have mentioned inefficiencies in trials and the disruption and costs that have flowed from ineffective trials. Magistrates courts listed more than 80,000 trials in the first and second quarters of 2012. Just 345—0.4%—were unable to proceed because of interpreter problems. Although I absolutely acknowledge that it is not good for any trial not to proceed, contingency plans were put in place to make sure that disruption was as small as possible.

[Jim Sheridan in the Chair]

Quality of service has been a recurring theme. We are satisfied with the quality of the interpreters being used, but, as I mentioned, there will be an independent evaluation this year, and we will update the Justice Committee in the autumn on its progress.

The hon. Member for Hammersmith mentioned the cost of cases not going ahead. I am sorry that he has had so much trouble getting a satisfactory response. I am not sure whether I will do much better today, but I always like to try when I am facing him. All I can say is that courts deal with thousands of cases every day. Some cases do not go ahead, often for a variety of reasons, and calculating the cost could take a disproportionate amount of time and money.

The future is important. It might be worth saying that the NAO agreed that our procurement process was fair and competitive and that the contract should be fully implemented. Our review identified a number of processes that have since been improved.

[Mr Leech]

Will the Minister confirm how many other potential operators were left in the process at the end? My understanding is that only one was left. Everyone else had been ruled out as being incapable of fulfilling the contract.

[Mrs Grant]

That is a specific and very fair point, and I will have to write to my hon. Friend about it.

The Department does not propose to change the current key performance indicators under the contract and framework agreement. The current suite of information available to us allows us closely to manage the performance of the contract. Capita provides us with the number of complaints, which we closely monitor and publish as part of our regular official statistics. However, we are willing to discuss with Capita and our other justice sector partners whether a user satisfaction measure, as suggested by my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, can be added to the management information already collected. A key performance indicator on quality will also be considered in the independent assessment that, as I indicated, is due to take place this year.

The Government are clear that the new contract had a number of problems, and we have taken lessons on board. We realise that it is unacceptable for any case not to go ahead. We now have a system that is robust, sustainable and able to deliver a quality service to people in the justice sector at an affordable level.

[Mr Slaughter]

I was not greatly shocked to be told that recovering the figures that I asked for would involve a disproportionate cost. If the Minister is going to persist with that line, she cannot give a figure for savings, because, if it is accurate, it is clearly a gross figure. The collapse of any of the serious Crown court trials that I mentioned will cost tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of pounds. The Government must be able to make some estimate of the costs. It is not good enough just to say, “We’re not going to collect that information from the courts.” Although it may not be 100% accurate, we need some idea of the cost to the public purse of this contract going ahead.

[Mrs Grant]

I am afraid that I cannot honestly say any more than I have already said; I do not want to be disingenuous. I take on board what the hon. Gentleman says, and if we can do any more—if we can give him any further and better particulars—I will be happy to try to do so.

The system has been operating well in the National Offender Management Service. The senior presiding judge told the NAO that the system had improved since initial roll-out through the Ministry’s actions. I am pleased to confirm that complaints are declining. I have outlined the improvements in our success rate. Just 0.4% of magistrates court listings were delayed because of interpreter problems in the first and second quarters of 2012, which was the difficult period. We will continue to work closely with our partners and to bring about changes that deliver improved performance in the future.

14:39

[Sir Alan Beith]

Conscientious though my hon. Friend the Minister is, she will not have convinced any of us that the situation is acceptable and sustainable.

The Minister referred to court staff being told not to respond to the Committee’s survey. At no time did the Committee seek to pit the opinions of staff against those of Ministers; that would be wrong, and we would not seek to do it. Committees will continue to collect information about how contracts are operating, and if Departments maintain their current line—the Ministry of Justice has not done so on other occasions—they will be on a collision course with the House.

The Minister referred to teething problems, which is an extraordinary way to describe the total failure to meet contract requirements in the early part of the contract. That should have attracted penalty or break clauses in the contract. We questioned the head of the Courts Service, who said that there were break clauses that he could activate. As my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) said, the current situation—90% achievement against a 98% target—represents a failure to meet the contract requirements, which should probably attract a penalty.

The Minister will never convince us that the savings figures take adequate account of the additional cost to the system. I am afraid this issue will continue to be controversial.

backbench business

Non-Proliferation Treaty

Thursday 20th June 2013 Westminster Hall

15:07

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

I am delighted that we are having this debate on the operation of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and the UK contribution to it. This is an extraordinarily serious issue, and our attitude towards nuclear weapons and nuclear weapons states, as well as the prospects for our own disarmament, are hugely important. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell us what the Government’s commitment is to promoting nuclear non-proliferation.

Nuclear weapons have existed since the second world war. They have been used only once in a war scenario—at Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945. Several hundred thousand people lost their lives in a flash—literally—but the cancers have carried on for 50 years. The cancers brought about by nuclear testing and nuclear pollution around the world have carried on for a long time. We are dealing with weapons of mass destruction, which would cause very large numbers of civilian casualties, should they ever be used again.

The development of nuclear weapons by the United States during the second world war was supported by a lot of scientists from Britain. For a short period during the war, and for a long period afterwards, all the powers relied on captured Nazi scientists to develop their own nuclear weapons—that was particularly true of the USA and the rocketry that went with them.

Shortly after the second world war, the then Soviet Union developed nuclear weapons, followed by Britain and France, and lastly China, which exploded its first nuclear weapon in 1964. Interestingly, the development of British nuclear weapons was always shrouded in secrecy and mystery. Brilliant as he was in many ways as a Prime Minister, the post-war Labour leader, Clement Attlee, managed to spend £200 million—an enormous sum now, never mind then, when it was worth far more—on secretly developing Britain’s own supposedly independent nuclear missile. That practice was copied by a later Prime Minister, Jim Callaghan, who in 1979 managed to develop the Chevaline project in secrecy, without even the Cabinet being informed.

Since the development of nuclear weapons, there has been one major occasion when there was a serious likelihood of their use. That was the Cuban missile crisis of 1963, which was resolved when the Soviet Union agreed not to put nuclear weapons on the island of Cuba. In return the United States agreed to remove its nuclear missiles that were targeting Soviet targets from Turkey—although that was done secretly. A year later, both the leaders who negotiated on that were either dead or gone. Khrushchev was removed by an internal process, and Kennedy of course was assassinated. What came out of that period was a realisation of just how dangerous nuclear weapons are, and how dangerous it would be if they proliferated further. A great achievement was the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, which was signed in 1970.

There are several elements to the treaty. One is the agreement, by countries that sign it, not to develop nuclear weapons. They can develop nuclear power and civil nuclear facilities, but not nuclear weapons. They also place themselves open to inspection by the International Atomic Energy Agency, which is based in Vienna. The five declared nuclear weapons states—Britain, France, the Soviet Union, the USA and China—agreed to ensure that there was no proliferation of their weaponry, and to take steps towards their own eventual nuclear disarmament.

The treaty’s progress has been patchy, to say the least. It is subject to a five-yearly review, and I have attended several review conferences as vice-chair of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament and chair of the parliamentary CND group. I am not making a declaration of interest, as there is no pecuniary gain in being an officer of CND; indeed, it costs quite a lot of money, but it is a joy to do. The review conferences are designed to monitor what is happening, but also to make proposals for a step forward. The review conference of 2010, with the support of a large number of states, proposed an international conference on the humanitarian effects of nuclear war.

That conference was held in Oslo, Norway, last year, and was supported by 77 countries. Unfortunately, none of the permanent five members chose to attend. There is no undertaking as yet about whether the UK Government will participate in its recall, which is due to happen in Mexico early next year. I think that the conference should be supported, and that we should recognise the good work that Mexico has done in being prepared to take the baton from Norway and make sure the conference happens. The situation is even more peculiar given the close relationship between Britain and Norway, and, indeed, their co-operation on nuclear disarmament issues and the decommissioning of nuclear weapons. Will the Minister give a firm undertaking that the UK will attend the conference?

Several countries have in the past 20 years taken steps that have lessened nuclear tensions in certain places. The most dramatic example was when post-apartheid South Africa, led by President Mandela, announced that it would no longer develop any nuclear weapons, and would completely disarm. That in turn brought about a nuclear weapons-free continent of Africa. That was an amazing step forward. We must ask ourselves who has the greater moral standing in the world: Britain, France, Russia, China and the USA, for their continued holding and developing of nuclear weapons; or South Africa, for ridding itself of apartheid and, shortly afterwards, of nuclear weapons? Those events were followed by nuclear weapons-free zones for the whole of Latin America and for central Asia, and a continuing debate about the possibility of such a zone for the Arctic, which would be a major achievement. I hope that we shall be able to develop a nuclear weapons-free middle east, which would be a huge prize.

A humanitarian initiative was adopted at the end of the Oslo conference and signed by 77 of the 106 states attending, and it is a lesson for all of us. It says:

“The catastrophic effects of a nuclear weapon detonation, whether by accident, miscalculation or design, cannot be adequately addressed. All efforts must be exerted to eliminate this threat. The only way to guarantee that nuclear weapons will never be used again is through their total elimination. It is a shared responsibility of all States to prevent the use of nuclear weapons, to prevent their vertical and horizontal proliferation and to achieve nuclear disarmament, including through fulfilling the objectives of the NPT and achieving its universality.”

There is a message for all of us from the countries that have deliberately not developed nuclear weapons.

India, Pakistan, North Korea and Israel do, unfortunately, have nuclear weapons, and I want to talk about them, and the question of Iran. India and Pakistan were both initially signatories to the NPT. Both declared that they did not want to develop nuclear weapons, and eventually both did. Each has its weapons targeted at the other, and it would be the ultimate folly for either side to use them—the madness of mutually assured destruction. If a nuclear weapon were sent from Delhi to Lahore, or Lahore to Delhi, neither side would know which was sent first, because both sides would be annihilated. There is also something tragic about the fact that, although India is in many ways a fast-developing economy and a rapidly modernising country, it still has the largest number of poor, starving children in the world. Why on earth would it spend its resources on nuclear weapons, when they could be spent on education, health and welfare? The same applies across the border in Pakistan. Any encouragement to India and Pakistan to decommission their weapons and come back into the fold of the non-proliferation treaty would be very welcome.

I have attended nuclear non-proliferation treaty review conferences and preparatory committees for the past few years. Often they are dominated by the question of Iran, and whether it has nuclear weapons. Together with the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) and two other Members on the all-party group on Iran, I attended a meeting with the IAEA in Vienna to discuss that very question, and the obstructions, or otherwise, that Iran put in the way of inspections.

It is clear to me that Iran is developing a nuclear power system and processing uranium, which it is open about admitting. It absolutely declares that it does not have nuclear weapons, and religious leaders and others in Iran have said that they have no wish to develop them. I know that this is a highly contentious position, but we now have an opportunity, with the new President—President Rouhani—to engage with Iran on this question.

The way forward has to be engagement through a nuclear weapons-free middle east, which was in the declaration of the 2010 review conference. A nuclear weapons-free middle east would of course have to include Israel, which is the only country in the region to possess nuclear weapons—it has 200 warheads—and is not signed up to any treaty obligations.

There is, however, a significant nuclear peace campaign in Israel and throughout the middle east, which is supported by the International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons. I pay tribute to Sharon Dolev and all who have campaigned so vigorously and effectively in Israel to draw attention to the insecurity, not the security, that nuclear weapons offer.

At the recent preparatory committee in Geneva, I listened carefully to the speeches made by delegates from all the Arab League states. The Arab League obviously has a great interest in the possibility of a nuclear weapons-free middle east, and strong statements were made by both the Arab League and individual countries, such as Egypt. They bluntly told the permanent five, “If you don’t progress the question of a conference for a nuclear weapons-free middle east, we will either walk out or develop our own nuclear weapons.” The obvious counter to Israel holding nuclear weapons is their development by other states in the region.

The Egyptian statement, which I heard, said:

“Egypt strongly supports the NPT regime. It has always championed the cause of a nuclear weapon free world. However, the establishment of a Middle East nuclear weapon free zone is essential for our national interest. We cannot wait forever for the launching of a process that would lead to the establishment of this zone, a process that was repeatedly committed to within the NPT. We cannot continue to attend meetings and agree on outcomes that do not get implemented, yet be expected to abide by the concessions we gave for this outcome.”

After making that statement, Egypt withdrew from the process.

There is now a serious danger that other countries in the middle east—one thinks of Saudi Arabia and others—will decide to withdraw from the NPT process, because of the failure of the secretariat and the permanent five to ensure that the Helsinki conference on a nuclear weapons-free middle east is held. I have repeatedly asked the Foreign Secretary—I now ask the Minister, who is well intentioned on these matters—whether a date has been set for the nuclear weapons-free middle east conference, which, sadly, did not happen in Helsinki when it was supposed to last year.

We need to move very urgently on the issue. The crisis in Syria suggests the need for a political solution there, but the election of a new President of Iran is an opportunity, not a problem. We should see it as an opportunity to progress this issue very quickly. If western countries that are so ready to give economic aid, arms supplies and political support to Israel cannot put pressure on Israel to attend that conference, that says a great deal about the permanent five’s rather limited commitment to a nuclear-free world.

An issue that has recently come up, as it does increasingly, is North Korea’s development of nuclear weapons. One could discuss for a long time why it has developed nuclear weapons. Is it because it feels threatened by the possibility of American ones being placed in South Korea, or is it concerned about seaborne ones being used against it by the USA or somebody else? Undeniably, there is a terrible imbalance within North Korea: the country can barely feed itself and has many people living in desperate poverty, yet at the same time it wastes goodness knows what resources on the development of nuclear weapons and a missile system to go with them.

The six-party talks made some progress, but then completely broke down. More recently, at the end of the latest stand-off, with all the hyperbole from the new North Korean leader Kim Jong-un, there has been some clear news. An Associated Press report stated:

“North Korea’s top governing body on Sunday”—

last week—

“proposed high-level nuclear and security talks with the United States in an appeal sent just days after calling off talks with rival South Korea.”

North Korea’s position appears to be that it wants to talk not just to South Korea, but to the USA. One hopes that such talks can bring about not only a continuation of the ceasefire between North Korea and South Korea, but a permanent end to the state of conflict and both sides’ enormous waste of resources on the development of greater levels of armament to potentially attack each other. There is something very dangerous about that, but I hope that we seize that opportunity to encourage direct talks with the USA.

President Obama was in Berlin yesterday, on the anniversary of President Kennedy’s speech at the Brandenburg gate. He proposed a further reduction in nuclear warheads as a way of promoting some degree of peace. That has to be welcomed, although so far the Russian response is a little confused. It is not clear what is being suggested, but it has to be seen as a way forward. In response, Kate Hudson, general secretary of CND, said:

“We welcome President Obama’s call for further reductions in US and Russian nuclear stockpiles. His proposals, which echo his speech against nuclear weapons in Prague in 2009, give voice to the concerns of billions around the world who wish to see a world without these catastrophic weapons… The only way to create genuine peace and security for future generations is to follow up these admirable words with concrete actions.”

One obviously hopes that that will be the case.

What can we do in Britain? We are a country of 65 million people on the north-west coast of Europe, with challenges on public expenditure and the delivery of public services. We need to invest a large amount in infrastructure. Therefore, we have to ask ourselves why we spend so much money, resource, time and energy on maintaining nuclear weapons.

The history of nuclear weapons is that Attlee initially envisaged something independent and British, but that later developed into the importing of US weapons such as Polaris, Cruise and Trident. We are now locked into a programme: the initial gate decision has been made to replace the Trident system and to develop a new submarine system at enormous cost, and a main gate decision will be taken in 2016.

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

No debate would really be complete in which I did not intervene on the hon. Gentleman. On the renewal of the submarines, does he acknowledge that the Trident missiles have many years of life left in them? Therefore, the decision about whether to replace the ageing fleet of Vanguard submarines that carry the Trident missiles could not possibly contravene the terms of the non-proliferation treaty.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

It is quite clear that the massive cost involved is largely for the replacement of the submarines. I argue that it is a breach of the treaty to replace submarines that will carry nuclear weapons, because that is an expansion of the nuclear capability, even if the number of warheads carried on each submarine is reduced as a result.

A review is being undertaken within the Government, following pressure from the Lib Dem part of the coalition. It fought the election on the basis of not having a like-for-like replacement of Trident.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

The hon. Gentleman is making a passionate and cogent case for the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons around the world. Does he agree that if we pursue this multi-billion pound like-for-like replacement of Trident, the UK will almost commit what can only be described as unilateral nuclear rearmament in the face of every other nation’s attempts to disarm on this issue? Does he also agree that we in Scotland—if we vote yes in the referendum next year—can play our part by putting a shot across the bows of the UK’s nuclear intentions by ensuring Trident’s removal from Coulport in Scotland?

[Jeremy Corbyn]

This debate is not about Scottish independence; it is about nuclear weapons. Quite clearly, the positioning of Britain’s nuclear weapons in Scotland makes that issue a factor, and the very broad opposition throughout Scotland from all parties to nuclear weapons is significant. Merely moving the weapons to somewhere else does not make us all safer because they are still in existence and still a threat. I hope to persuade the Minister —I am sure that he is ready to be persuaded—of the need for Britain not to replace its nuclear weapons system and to become part of the nuclear-free world that we all aspire to. I can see that the Minister is about to jump in and intervene and say that he agrees with me. [Interruption.] Perhaps he will cover that later in his reply.

I have spoken for nearly 30 minutes, so I will conclude shortly. We are members of the UN Security Council, and some people argue that, by maintaining our nuclear weapons ability, we guarantee our place at the top table. At some point, there will be changes and reforms to the UN. Other countries will become permanent members of the Security Council or the structure will change possibly to include, among others, Brazil, Mexico and India. Our membership is not dependent on having nuclear weapons; it is because of the establishment of the UN at the end of the second world war.

We have a slightly schizophrenic approach towards nuclear weapons. Some time ago, I went to a Pugwash conference, which is a meeting that is held in Canada most years between peace campaigners, nuclear scientists and others about the possibility of bringing about a nuclear weapons-free world. I was all prepared to give a contribution to the Saturday afternoon session of the conference when I was asked to delay my presentation by half an hour or so because a video message was coming from the British Government. The former Defence Minister Geoff Hoon appeared on the screen above us and gave a cogent talk about Britain’s commitment to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and about how we were detargeting and reducing our warheads. He said that we were encouraging a nuclear-free world and co-operating with Norway on decommissioning, but that Britain was not going to give up its nuclear weapons all together. It is time that we accepted the message that we are part of the NPT and have a contribution to make towards nuclear disarmament and did something about it. We should say that we will not proceed with the development of the new submarines, which would affect the ability to deliver those weapons. Instead, we should move to a nuclear weapons-free defence policy, which would not only save us a great deal of money but improve our standing in the world.

Nuclear weapons are not a defence. They did not help the USA on 9/11 or London on 7/7. They do not help anyone very much when the threats around the world are poverty, environmental change and random acts of violence. Surely nuclear weapons are just weapons of mass destruction. One nuclear explosion cannot be limited, because it never is. It will cause from then on environmental destruction and a nuclear winter.

Let me conclude with this thought. Those people who argue that we need nuclear weapons and that the nuclear non-proliferation treaty is for everyone else but not for us must answer these questions: would they use them, in what circumstances would they use them and how would they live with the deaths of millions of people? The weapons are dangerous and redundant and it is time that we ‘fess up to that and decide to go down the road of disarmament rather than rearmament.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Jim Sheridan (in the Chair)]

Before I call the next speaker, let me say that I intend to bring in the Front-Bench speakers at no later than 4 pm.

15:30

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

I sometimes think that the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) and I missed our profession. We have both been arguing the merits and demerits of nuclear weapons and nuclear deterrence—I would like to think passionately but also reasonably—for at least the last 30 years. Perhaps we should cast ourselves as the nuclear version of “Les Misérables”, but which one of us would be the fugitive and which one the pursuer is a matter for others to decide. Certainly, I would like to think that our relationship is a bit more positive, if adversarial, than that of Jean Valjean and his nemesis, but the fact is that we do disagree, and we represent two diametrically opposed schools of thought. I genuinely congratulate him on securing this debate. I was away with the Intelligence and Security Committee in the United States when he applied for it. Had I not been, I would have been happy to support him in applying for it, just as he supported me very fully earlier this year when I applied for the debate that we both secured on Trident, which most people thought was beneficial and extremely valuable, whichever side of the debate they happened to support.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that, and inform him that I prayed in aid his undoubted wish to have this debate in order to continue our lifelong struggle for nuclear peace.

[Dr Lewis]

I am delighted to hear that, and that is what I hoped he would do. I will try to follow the chain of the hon. Gentleman’s argument—not too pedantically, I hope. I will start where he did, in 1945, because as he said, that was the one occasion on which nuclear weapons were used. However, it all depends on what we mean by the verb “to use”, because although they were used, very controversially, to end the war with Japan, I contend that they have been used frequently, indeed continuously, ever since. Once we get to the stage of mutual nuclear deterrence, the use of the nuclear deterrent lies not in firing it, but in possessing it, so that no one else will ever be tempted to do to a country what America was able to do to Japan. Whether we regard that as right or wrong in the circumstances is irrelevant. We want to ensure that no one is tempted to do that again in the future. The use of the nuclear deterrent is to deter anyone from attacking a country with mass destruction weapons.

Towards the end of the hon. Gentleman’s speech, he said that nuclear weapons were a fat lot of use as far as 9/11 was concerned. That is an update of an argument that we used to hear in the 1980s, when it was said, “Well, your nuclear deterrent didn’t stop Argentina invading the Falklands, did it?” My answer to the more modern version of that has to be the same as my answer to the earlier version: if a weapons system does not deter every sort of threat—and it does deter some dangerous threats—there is no more reason to get rid of it than to get rid of the antidote to a deadly disease just because it could not cure us of other, unrelated diseases.

The question of nuclear deterrence was substantially worked out before nuclear weapons made their existence known. In 1944-45, the British chiefs of staff commissioned a study by defence scientists under a famous professor, Sir Henry Tizard, to try to imagine what the future nature of warfare would be once Germany and Japan were defeated. Tizard was not allowed to go into the question of nuclear weapons, even though he knew that they were under development, but he could not resist putting in his report, in 1945, that he and his fellow senior defence scientists could see only one answer to the atomic bomb, if indeed it was developed. He said:

“A knowledge that we were prepared, in the last resort”

to retaliate with such a weapon

“might well deter an aggressive nation. Duelling was a recognised method of settling quarrels between men of high social standing so long as the duellists stood 20 paces apart and fired at each other with pistols of a primitive type. If the rule had been that they should stand a yard apart with pistols at each other’s hearts, we doubt whether it would long have remained a recognised method of settling affairs of honour.”

The hon. Member for Islington North said that Nazi scientists played a great part in the subsequent development of nuclear weapons. I do not think that that is quite true. The Nazis went down a blind alley as far as nuclear weapons development was concerned. They were subject to eavesdropping at Farm hall, where intelligence experts heard them doubting and wondering whether it was true that the Americans had successfully developed the atomic bomb used in Japan. However, he is absolutely right that Nazi scientists played a key role in developing the rocketry that could carry such weapons to their destination, should they ever be fired. As I like to stress over and over, that is not what their use consists of, once the stage of stable nuclear deterrence is reached.

Similarly and interestingly, the hon. Gentleman said, again rightly, that the Cuban missile crisis was probably the most dangerous point in the cold war—the point when the possibility of a nuclear exchange was at its highest. The concession that the Americans made was even a little greater than he suggested, because they had nuclear-armed missiles based in Turkey. It was not a question of targeting Turkey; the US had missiles based in Turkey, which Kennedy wisely decided the US should offer to remove as a way of giving Khrushchev some face-saving ability, so it would not look too much like a straightforward climb-down for him to remove the Soviet missiles from Cuba.

Although the hon. Gentleman talked a great deal about non-proliferation, he did not quote from the relevant article in the non-proliferation treaty, which is often quoted incompletely. The preamble to the treaty states that nuclear disarmament should occur

“pursuant to”—

that is, in conformity with—

“a treaty on general and complete disarmament”:

in other words, worldwide conventional disarmament.

Article VI of the non-proliferation treaty states in full:

“Each of the parties to the treaty undertakes to pursue negotiations in good faith on effective measures relating to cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and to nuclear disarmament, and on a treaty on general and complete disarmament under strict and effective international control.”

There are three elements to article VI: the cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date, a world free of nuclear weapons, and a world with general disarmament. On the first, Britain has never been part of the nuclear arms race. It is true that the superpowers have: they piled up nuclear weapons on both sides of the iron curtain.

The one thing on which I always used to agree with the famous former general secretary of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, Monsignor Bruce Kent, was his view that the Americans and the Russians could each unilaterally cut their nuclear arsenals by 10% without any loss of security whatsoever. I agreed entirely: both sides had massive overkill capability. However, Britain never did. For that matter, China never has, and nor has France. We in this country have always followed a policy of minimum strategic nuclear deterrence. In other words, it does not matter if another country has the ability to wipe us out 50 times over, because we can cause unacceptable levels of devastation in retaliation, which is why the other country will not do it in the first place.

The hon. Gentleman—I nearly called him my hon. Friend, because I regard him as an honourable friend—asked rhetorically which country had greater moral standing in the world: South Africa, for renouncing its programme, or the United Kingdom. I suppose it depends on one’s standard of morality and how one measures it. I would say that it is a little like arguing that the neutral countries in 1940—for instance, Holland, Belgium and Norway—had greater moral standing than democracies such as Britain and France, which at least tried to have armaments with which to defend themselves. However, that is not my standard of morality or my way of measuring it. My way of measuring it is to ask which country, by adopting a particular policy, will do most to prevent a nuclear war from breaking out. It was implicit—at one point, it was virtually explicit—in some of the hon. Gentleman’s remarks that he accepts that both of us share the same end. We do not wish a nuclear war to happen; we just disagree as much as it is possible to disagree on the means of achieving that laudable end.

I will say a few words about Britain and the renewal of Trident, and about the goal of a world free of nuclear weapons, and that will probably be enough. On the question of Britain’s renewal of Trident, I underscore what I said in the intervention that the hon. Gentleman generously allowed me to make. The Trident missiles that currently constitute the British strategic nuclear deterrent are not up for renewal. They have decades of life left in them. The only question is whether we should replace the submarines that carry them.

Of course, one could argue that not replacing the submarines would effectively disarm this country of its nuclear deterrent. That is why the hon. Gentleman and the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament would like the submarines not to be replaced. Equally, it is why I am determined to do everything that I can to put pressure on the Government to ensure that they fulfil their promise to replace them. However, I do not think that it is credibly arguable, by any stretch of the imagination, that replacing four submarines that are reaching the end of their design life with three or four new submarines to carry the same missiles—indeed, the new submarines will have a smaller missile compartment, so arguably they will carry fewer missiles, although I freely acknowledge that the flexibility in the number of warheads that can be put on missiles probably means that it is a distinction without a difference—comes anywhere near a breach of the provisions in article VI of the non-proliferation treaty, whatever one regards our undertakings as being.

As I said before, the only time frame is ending the arms race “at an early date”. We have never been a part of the arms race, due to our policy of minimum strategic nuclear deterrence, and as far as I can see, there is nothing in the treaty that says that we must go for a nuclear-free world before the world is conventionally disarmed. In the next and final stage of my remarks, I will argue that that would be dangerous and destabilising.

To return to the point about Trident, we continue to follow a policy with the same weapons system that we have deployed ever since HMS Vanguard first went to sea in the 1990s. Whatever other arguments might be used to say that Britain ought not to build the new fleet of successor submarines, contravening the provisions of the non-proliferation treaty is not one of them.

Let me move to the final component of my argument, which is whether a nuclear-free world would be desirable, or a least a nuclear-free world that was introduced prior to general and complete disarmament—conventional disarmament—which is referred to in the same clause of the NPT that refers to a world free of nuclear weapons.

If nuclear weapons had not existed, it is unlikely that the cold war would have remained stalemated, as it did, rather than boiling over into a third global conflict. If nuclear weapons ceased to exist, but the world remained armed to the teeth and still as mutually hostile as it is, there would be nothing to prevent the first nation to cheat on the question of its abolition of nuclear weapons from using—that is, firing—secretly manufactured devices before any such temporary monopoly of them was broken.

I particularly draw attention to the example of what happened with a treaty that undoubtedly would have had the support of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament in 1972, when it was signed: the biological warfare convention. I always remember that brilliant columnist, Bernard Levin, who wrote an article at the time of the biological warfare convention, talking about the fact that the Russians were apparently disposing at sea of all sorts of horrible biological weapons, under the terms of the treaty. He said that whatever things they were consigning to the depths of the ocean, he was pretty sure that biological weapons were not among them. He was dead right, because we now know that in 1973, the year after Russia signed the treaty, the Soviet leadership set up Biopreparat—a massive organisation—secretly to continue its deadly biological weapons research into such charming weapons as smallpox, bubonic plague, anthrax, brucellosis, tularaemia and Ebola.

We know about this because in 1989—I remember when it happened—a defector from that organisation, Vladimir Pasechnik, revealed everything that was going on. We were able to get away with that cheating, because we had the ultimate fall-back of a nuclear deterrent system, which meant that it would have been just as dangerous for Russia to have exploited its secret monopoly of biological weapons, which it kept while everybody else kept to the terms of the treaty and disarmed. We would have been able to retaliate against those weapons with our nuclear deterrent, but heaven help us if we had not the nuclear deterrent as a back-up.

The question that people who advocate a nuclear-free world have to ask themselves is this: is it a sensible policy, in the real world as we know it today, to make the world safe once again for conventional warfare between the great powers? I would love to see a nuclear-free world, but I would love to see it only when I see a weapons-free world; for that to happen, there has to be a world Government and, above all, a reformation of the mind of man and a change for the better in human nature.

15:53

[Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to make a short contribution to this debate, Mr Sheridan, and I am pleased to see you in the Chair today. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) both on securing this debate and on his comprehensive, articulate opening contribution.

I should like to ask the Government for more information about how they intend to deal with this issue. Many such debates take place in the context of the renewal of the Trident nuclear weapons system, about which we have heard many references. Strong arguments are made by those who believe that we should not renew Trident and by those, such as the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), who believe that renewing it would be the right step for Britain to take. I would find it difficult to justify the cost of more than £100 billion being spent—we believe that would be the cost during the lifetime of a replacement for Trident—in the context of some of the cuts in the public sector and in public spending at this time, the cost of which we know is bearing down on many people throughout the country.

I should be interested in hearing the Minister provide a more detailed explanation of the position that Britain is taking internationally. I do not agree with the hon. Member for New Forest East that it would be wrong to get rid of nuclear weapons before getting rid of all weapons in this world. The position of some states on nuclear weapons makes it more likely that other states will acquire them. One of my great concerns is proliferation, particularly with the kind of people running some regimes in the world at the moment. Of course, there is much debate about Syria. Previously, there was much debate about Libya and Iraq. We have had debates and there has been discussion this week about the regime in Iran. The reality is that many of those regimes, at various points, may have had the capacity to develop and possess nuclear weapons.

It is beholden on the United Kingdom Government, as one of the five countries that are signatories to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and one of the countries that it is recognised as possessing nuclear weapons, to put a great deal of energy, expertise and political commitment into the process, to try to rid the world of nuclear weapons and take steps to ensure that, until we get to the point where there are no nuclear weapons, as few nuclear weapons exist in as few hands as possible. The more nuclear weapons that we have and the more countries that possess them, the more likely it is that they will be used, either by accident or design. I am interested in hearing a great deal more than we have heard up till now from the Government about what energy, resources and commitment they are putting into this process.

I should also be interested to have a more detailed explanation of what the Government’s position is in relation to some other initiatives taking place in the world by other states that do not possess nuclear weapons, or perhaps previously possessed nuclear weapons but no longer do, and that seem to be putting a great deal of diplomatic and political energy into trying to move towards a situation where fewer states possess nuclear weapons.

In particular, for example, I should be interested to hear from the Minister the detail of the Government’s position in relation to the humanitarian initiative undertaken by a number of non-nuclear weapons states. The Minister will be aware of the conference that took place in Oslo earlier this year. He has had to address many parliamentary questions, including some asked by me and by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North, asking why Britain did not attend and engage in that event. The Minister will be aware that that initiative explored issues to do with how we stop nuclear weapons proliferating and stop the political situation in which states can justify acquiring and developing nuclear weapons, by using the same arguments that we use in this country.

I should like the Minister and the Government to say what they intend to do now to put this issue at the top of the political agenda. He will appreciate that the possession of nuclear weapons by any country and the development of this technology means that it is more likely that these weapons of mass destruction will be used. As we lead towards our upcoming discussions on whether to renew Trident, Britain should be actively engaged in that process and, indeed, be a leader of the move towards a nuclear-free world.

15:49

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

As always, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sheridan. I have listened with great interest to what has been, perhaps inevitably, a somewhat polarised debate. It is fair to say that hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber —my hon. Friends the Members for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) and for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) and the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis)—although they reach very different conclusions about the approach to nuclear weapons, approach the issue from a position of great integrity and with a real desire to ensure that we never revisit the horrors of the only use to date of nuclear weapons in conflict, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki at the end of the second world war.

I have great respect for the views expressed by everyone who has spoken in the debate. I do not share the pessimism of the hon. Gentleman’s closing remarks. I was with him for quite a bit of his speech, up until he said that we will never see an end to nuclear weapons unless we see an end to conventional weapons and a world Government. Perhaps taking the opposing view—that we will achieve a world without nuclear weapons—is idealistic, but I think it is important that we have that in mind as an end goal. After all, each of the parties to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty—he cited article 6—has undertaken to pursue in good faith negotiations on the cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and to achieve nuclear disarmament. Having signed up to the treaty, we have committed ourselves to making progress on that front, even if we think that the end result will be a long way off; it comes down to the speed and passion with which we pursue those negotiations.

The official Opposition believe that the UK must continue to press for multilateral negotiations towards mutual, balanced and verifiable reductions in nuclear weapons and to work towards total elimination of our nuclear arsenal and all others. Those efforts must include working with the International Atomic Energy Agency to develop assurances of supply for nuclear fuel that provide energy security without the need for proliferation of sensitive enrichment technology. I do not intend to talk about nuclear power—it has been discussed in previous debates in Parliament—but it is part of the issue.

When the Labour party was in government, we committed to reduce the number of operationally available warheads to fewer than 160, so the UK has now reduced its nuclear arsenal by 75% since the end of the cold war, and we welcome the Government’s announcements on reducing both operationally available warheads and the overall weapons stockpile. The UK now accounts for less than 1% of the global stockpile of nuclear weapons. We have the smallest arsenal of the five recognised nuclear weapons states, and we are the only state to reduce to a single nuclear deterrent system.

On Trident and the need for an independent nuclear deterrent, Labour’s continuing objective is to play an active and constructive role in an international effort to achieve a world free from nuclear weapons. Any future Labour policy will seek to take disarmament further by reducing the number of deployable and stockpiled warheads, but Britain’s independent nuclear deterrent has been the cornerstone of our peace and security for more than half a century. In today’s world, so long as there are other countries with such capabilities and the security landscape is characterised by instability and uncertainty—we have heard about the situation in Pakistan, North Korea’s missile tests and the unpredictable situation in Iran, despite the election this week of a new President—it is right that the UK retains an independent nuclear deterrent. However, we want the UK to have the minimum credible deterrent, in line with our international obligations and strategic security requirements, and we want to ensure that we achieve maximum value for money within that chosen platform.

I will address some of the countries of concern that pose a possible nuclear threat. In the past year, international talks on Iran’s nuclear programme have achieved little, resulting in harsher sanctions. On Monday, the head of the IAEA reported that sanctions have not been successful in slowing Iran’s ability to enrich uranium. We welcome the commitment of Iran’s new President, Hassan Rouhani, to greater nuclear transparency, of course, but those words must be backed up with progress on the ground.

The Russian Foreign Minister has reported in the past few days that Iran is prepared to suspend the most sensitive parts of its nuclear programme, which could be welcome news, but we must be cautious. The new President was head of Iran’s national security council for 16 years, and he was Tehran’s key nuclear negotiator from 2003 to 2005. It is fair to say that he did not demonstrate any great enthusiasm for transparency on Iran’s nuclear capability when he was in those positions.

On North Korea, there has been a ratcheting of tensions in the past year or so, with the launch of two rockets carrying satellites in 2012, which was widely seen as an attempt to test its missile technology. The launch was met with global condemnation, including from North Korea’s closest ally, China. The UN Secretary-General condemned the launch as a violation of United Nations Security Council resolution 1874.

In February 2013, North Korea conducted its third nuclear test in seven years, and there has been rhetoric from Kim Jong-un about a pre-emptive nuclear strike against the USA and threats against South Korea. I was in South Korea for a UK-Korea Forum for the Future conference last week, and one of the key messages that we gave to our Korean hosts was on our admiration for their calm response to those threats. Obviously, South Korea is used to such threats, as there has been conflict between the two countries for many years, but its response helped to dampen the tension in the area.

I would be grateful to the Minister if he updated us on his assessment of the situation. The North Koreans pulled out of the talks that were due to take place on the grounds that the South Koreans were not sending sufficiently senior people. That seems to be an issue that could quite easily be resolved. What conversations, if any, has he had to try to ensure that those talks go ahead?

The security of existing stockpiles in countries such as Pakistan and Russia remains an ongoing concern. The IAEA has reported more than 100 nuclear smuggling incidents since 1993, 18 of which involved highly enriched uranium, which is the most dangerous product on the nuclear black market. Does the Minister have anything to say on how we are trying to address such smuggling incidents?

I was interested in what my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North had to say about the middle east nuclear-free zone, for which he has been campaigning for some time. He tabled an early-day motion on that in 2010. I understand that the hopes of having a conference this year have been somewhat derailed by the situation in Syria. Will the Minister comment on whether we can push for that conference to take place?

The Minister attended the NPT review conference at the UN last year, and it was reported that a five-year action plan spanning the three pillars of the NPT was agreed by consensus. The next NPT review conference will be in 2015. What progress have the Government made on drawing up their objectives? What do they hope to achieve at that conference?

The Trident alternatives review is set to publish its report before July, and the Government will have an opportunity to assess whether to cut the number of Vanguard submarines from four to two. Late last month, the Financial Times reported that the review will conclude that any alternative to Trident will either be impractical or more expensive. I assume that the Minister will want to wait until the review is published before commenting in detail, but I would be interested if he could answer a few questions. How much time and money is being spent by the MOD on the review? Will it be published as a Government document or, as it was inspired by Liberal Democrat members of the coalition, will it be published under their auspices? What consideration will be given to the review before the finalisation of the Conservative party manifesto?

Finally, I want to mention Government efforts to reduce their own nuclear stockpile. In 2010, the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs informed Parliament that the UK had 225 nuclear warheads; he also signalled that the coalition would downgrade their importance in UK military strategy. What efforts are being made on that front?

16:10

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt)]

I echo the remarks of hon. Members: it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sheridan.

If anyone wanted to listen to as good and clear an exposition as possible of whether the United Kingdom should have nuclear weapons, they could do a lot worse than listen to the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) and my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis). It is clear to all of us in the House, having known them for a long time, that not only do they know what they are talking about, but they continue to conduct the debate on a serious issue in exactly the sort of terms that we would want for an argument of such seriousness. As the years ebb and flow, it remains uncertain which argument will dominate at any particular stage in British politics and the like. That the reasons for and against are put so clearly is of benefit to all of us in the House, so I very much appreciate the hon. Member for Islington North calling for the debate, and the way in which he led it, as well as the way in which all other colleagues who have spoken contributed.

As always, we need to go a little way down memory lane. The first time that the hon. Member for Islington North and I debated the subject was when we were both councillors on Haringey council in 1981; he was either proposing or part of a movement to declare the borough a nuclear-free zone. Probably the first time that I came across my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East was when he was campaigning with Tony Kerpel and others in the anti-CND movement about the same time. Both have proved their point: Haringey has, mercifully, been free of attack since the council declared it a nuclear-free zone—

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I made my case.

[Alistair Burt]

Absolutely. To that extent, the hon. Gentleman was absolutely right in how he conducted the case.

The world has of course benefited from the case put forward so ably by my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East. It is a case with which I am broadly in agreement: our possession of nuclear weapons has contributed to the peace of the world, provided it has been allied to a commitment, demonstrated by successive Governments, to rid the world steadily of nuclear weapons through measures of mutual confidence. I appreciate the restatement of the Opposition position by the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), who echoed the position of successive Labour Governments and reiterated the 2007 commitment, made under a Labour Government, to proceed with Trident. In general, I accept that she has restated a relatively common position. The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) made a strong contribution on the side of those who challenge such an opinion, but, again, in a moderate way and recognising the responsibilities of the United Kingdom not only to its own defence, but to the mutual defence with which it is associated through its various treaty obligations.

In the time allotted, I will do my best to do justice to the contributions. I am not sure, however, which part in “Les Mis” we would all take. “Who am I?” Well, I am the Minister responsible for counter-proliferation, but at least I am not “On my own”, and I am grateful for the support I have had from colleagues in putting together these remarks. Enough of this.

The United Kingdom is a firm supporter of the non-proliferation treaty, which we believe is the cornerstone of the international non-proliferation regime. Of course, the NPT faces challenges and pressures, such as the nuclear ambitions of North Korea and Iran, the risk of a nuclear terrorist attack and the spread of sensitive nuclear technology. We must also remember, however, that the consensus outcome of the 2010 NPT review conference, with agreement of the cross-pillar action plan by 189 state parties of the NPT, was a real achievement and a boost for multilateralism. We are now halfway through the five-year review cycle. Looking ahead to the review conference in 2015, we need to ensure that we deliver against our action plan commitments.

In response to the question of the hon. Member for Bristol East, we in the Government take our action plan obligations seriously, on all three pillars of the NPT, which are nuclear disarmament, non-proliferation and peaceful uses, and our role as co-convenor for the conference on the establishment of a weapons of mass destruction-free zone in the middle east. I will say a little more about each of those.

On disarmament, under the first pillar of the NPT, the United Kingdom is committed to the long-term goal of a world without nuclear weapons. Successive UK Governments—the hon. Lady can take pride in her party’s achievements—have played an active role in helping to build an international environment in which no state feels the need to possess nuclear weapons. I take the opportunity to highlight the UK’s strong record on disarmament. In our 2010 strategic defence and security review, we announced reductions in the number of operational warheads and our overall stockpile. I remember making some of those announcements in New York at the time of the 2010 conference. We announced, for the first time, the total size of our nuclear warhead stockpile, and gave a new, stronger security assurance that the UK would not use or threaten to use nuclear weapons against non-nuclear weapon states party to the NPT. Those announcements meant that the UK has been more transparent than ever about our arsenal in a declaratory policy that we believe will assist in building trust between nuclear and non-nuclear weapon states, and contribute to efforts to reduce the number of nuclear weapons worldwide. We continue to call on other nuclear weapon states to take reciprocal steps.

In essence, as we all know, the NPT is a grand bargain between nuclear and non-nuclear weapon states. It is essential, and at the heart of our disagreements with Iran in particular, but not only Iran, that both sides keep that bargain, otherwise mutual confidence is not there. If we do keep the bargain, we can make progress towards the world we want to see. China’s involvement in the P5 process—in particular, its leadership of the P5 working group on nuclear terminology—is a positive indication of China’s interest in engaging in efforts to help enhance understanding on nuclear matters. That and Russia’s involvement in the P5 plus 1 talks with Iran indicate that, despite difficulties and disagreements in some areas, the consensus on nuclear issues and nuclear disarmament is quite strong under the overall NPT umbrella.

[Katy Clark]

The Minister is talking about non-nuclear states and the work of nuclear states. He is aware of the Oslo conference and humanitarian initiative, and of the New Agenda Coalition disarmament statement; will he have the opportunity to outline the Government’s approach to such initiatives from non-nuclear states to encourage nuclear disarmament?

[Alistair Burt]

I will indeed; I will come to that in a moment. Our groundbreaking work with Norway, a non-nuclear state, on the verification of warhead dismantlement has been the first time that a nuclear weapon state has engaged in such an open way with a non-nuclear weapon state on such a sensitive issue. I hope that we have also been active in building the conditions for further progress on disarmament. The United Kingdom instigated the P5 dialogue between nuclear weapon states in 2009 to help build the trust and mutual confidence to take forward further progress. The hon. Lady is right that as part of the action plan—though it was not a commitment—there was much discussion about the humanitarian impact of nuclear weapons and, therefore, the Oslo conference.

Of course we recognise that any use of nuclear weapons would have grave humanitarian consequences—it is unthinkable. The best way to prevent such an event is to make progress on multilateral disarmament, on counter-proliferation and on improving the security of non-nuclear materials and facilities. Our decision not to attend the Oslo conference on humanitarian consequences does not change any of those commitments to the goal of a world without nuclear weapons. We believe, however, that the energy behind the humanitarian campaign could have been more effectively channelled through existing processes, by helping to tackle blockages, and by making progress in the practical step-by-step approach that includes all states that possess nuclear weapons. Only in that way can we realistically achieve a world without nuclear weapons. That is the reason why we and the other P5 members chose not to attend.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

It is true that the P5 did not attend, but will the Minister give us some indication of the attitude to the invitation that I understand has been extended to attend the Mexico resumption of the conference in the early part of next year?

[Alistair Burt]

The hon. Gentleman is right. Officials from our embassy in Mexico City held a meeting with Mexican officials on 31 May. We were informed that they do indeed intend to hold a conference in early 2014 with a focus on the humanitarian impact of nuclear weapons. We have made no decision on whether to attend that conference, but we will continue to engage with Mexican officials on the shape of it.

I want to speak about some of the states mentioned by colleagues during the debate. On the second pillar of the NPT, Iran and North Korea pose the most immediate challenges to the non-proliferation regime. The actions of both countries must not be allowed to threaten international peace and security. The UK remains deeply concerned about Iran’s continuing nuclear activities in violation of multiple UN Security Council resolutions and in defiance of the resolutions of the board of governors of the International Atomic Energy Agency.

Iran’s nuclear programme has no credible civilian explanation, and we believe that it wants a nuclear weapons capability. Those aspirations are incompatible with Iran’s obligation under the NPT. A nuclear-armed Iran would bring the risk of a nuclear arms race and further conflict throughout the region. The NPT could unravel and the dangers facing us and other countries would multiply. We want a peaceful, diplomatic solution to the nuclear issue. We urge Iran to engage constructively on the basis of the confidence-building proposal presented by the E3 plus 3, and to take the concrete steps that would pave the way for negotiations on a comprehensive settlement.

As my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary said, clearly the election of Iran’s new President has the possibility of introducing a new element into a complex equation. If that were the case, there would be a warm welcome from the United Kingdom, but the evidence suggests that it is sensible to wait and see what such an approach might be. The hon. Member for Bristol East was able to give some background on President-elect Rouhani that indicates that his position may not be the easiest, but it is still early days, and any opportunity will be warmly welcomed. The security and peace of many people is dependent on Iran recognising its obligations under the NPT and satisfying the concerns of the international community. If those steps can be taken, there may be an opportunity to de-escalate. No one and no state would welcome that more than the United Kingdom.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

The Minister is being generous in giving way again. Could we not use the opportunity of new President Rouhani’s election to open some sort of dialogue with Iran? I do not want Iran to have nuclear weapons any more than anyone else, but does the Minister realise that the alarm bell of Egypt leaving the NPT process is very serious for the whole region? Urgency is required to kick-start the nuclear weapons-free middle east conference that, sadly, was not held in Helsinki last year.

[Alistair Burt]

Before turning to the weapons of mass destruction-free zone in the middle east, I want to pick up the hon. Gentleman’s point. The opportunity for dialogue is genuinely there. The House knows that relations between Iran and the United Kingdom have been reduced to the lowest level, but they are not absolutely nil. Everyone knows about the talks that are proceeding on the nuclear issue, so the opportunity for dialogue exists. I do not believe that anyone in Tehran believes that they would not have the opportunity of putting something new into the mixture if they wanted to, in relation to the President’s position, when it becomes established, so we will wait and see. I want to make it clear that our side would welcome movement, but equally let me say, in response to the concerns of those whose responsibilities we share, that there has to be evidence. However, the opportunity will be there.

I will speak briefly about North Korea before turning to the weapons of mass destruction free-zone in the middle east. The United Kingdom condemns in the strongest possible terms North Korea’s continued development of its nuclear weapons programme, which is in direct violation of UN Security Council resolutions. We continue to urge North Korea to return to credible and authentic international negotiations, to abide by its obligations under relevant UN Security Council resolutions and to abandon all nuclear weapons programmes in a complete, verifiable and irreversible manner.

To what extent the regime plays games with the international community and its neighbours is almost impossible to tell. The hon. Member for Bristol East rightly asked about the prospects for new talks. We welcomed the news last week that North and South Korea were considering talks on the future of the industrial complex and other issues. Although it has not proved possible to hold talks this week, we continue to hope that both sides will remain open to future dialogue. It is certainly something we encourage as best we can.

Turning to the weapons of mass destruction-free zone in the middle east, I want to put on record again my strong commitment to it. I have met facilitator Jaakko Laajava on several occasions. I like him, and he works incredibly hard on one of the most unforgiving briefs in the middle east, of which there a few. He has worked tirelessly to try to bring nations together. As a co-convenor of the conference, we support it and we want it to happen. I would like an indicative date, and I back Jaakko Laajava’s attempts to try to create that. His method has been to try to bring the parties together conditionally to discuss where it might go, but that has not suited Egypt and other Arab states that have made their concerns very clear because they were disappointed that the conference did not happen last year. So were we, but patient building together will be required to get there.

We would very much appreciate the re-engagement of Egypt and all other Arab states, and I regularly raise that in my bilateral conversations. Proceeding with this is part of the bargain that I mentioned earlier; it was part of the bargain that achieved the statement in 2010. Those who are committed to this can be assured that the United Kingdom will make all efforts, but ultimately it will depend on confidence all round, and will include the United States, Israel and the Iranians. It is interesting that they are all in the process, and the facilitator continues to talk to all, which is important. That is our position and we continue to try to drive that process on. The fact that Israel and Iran are part of it is one encouragement in a difficult area.

Hon. Members would be disappointed if I did not touch briefly on the deterrent and Trident. Our position remains that maintaining the UK’s nuclear deterrent beyond the life of the current system is fully consistent with our obligations as a recognised nuclear weapon state under the NPT. It does not require unilateral disarmament, nor does it prohibit the maintenance of a nuclear weapons systems currently held by any nuclear weapon state. The UK has an excellent record in fulfilling its disarmament obligations under the NPT, maintains only a minimum nuclear deterrent and, we believe, is the most forward-leaning of the five nuclear weapon states. In that context, I reaffirm the United Kingdom’s position on the deterrent.

My party’s position on Trident remains that which was approved by Parliament in 2007. The Government are committed to maintaining the UK’s continuous strategic nuclear deterrent, and renewing it through the submarine replacement programme. A decision on the number of submarines to be procured will be taken in 2016.

In May 2011, the then Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), announced the initiation of the review of the costs, feasibility and credibility of alternative systems and postures for maintaining a minimum credible nuclear deterrent. The purpose of the review is to help to fulfil the coalition Government’s programme, which states that:

“we will maintain Britain’s nuclear deterrent, and have agreed that the renewal of Trident should be scrutinised to ensure value for money. The Liberal Democrats will continue to make the case for alternatives”.

The Government are fulfilling that pledge and that promise. Already, significant costs have been identified as being able to be taken out of the Trident programme, giving rise to £3.2 billion of savings and deferrals over the next 10 years. It is important that it is cost-effective. We will deal with the alternatives when that comes through, but for maintenance of the Government’s consistent position at the moment, the deterrent remains in place. Our commitment to a cost-effective Trident also remains in place, and we will await the alternatives, when they come up.

I suspect that the debate will continue, and the fact that it will be continued in good heart between knowledgeable colleagues on the Back Benches helps those on both Front Benches.

16:30

Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order No. 10(11)).

Written Statements

Thursday 20th June 2013 Written Statements

Thursday 20 June 2013

Social Media Prosecution Guidelines

Thursday 20th June 2013 Written Statements

[The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve)]

The Director of Public Prosecutions has today published his final guidelines for prosecuting cases involving communications sent via social media. This follows an earlier public consultation exercise on the interim guidelines, details of which were announced in my written statement to the House on the 19 December 2012, Official Report, column 101WS.

The final guidelines take account of comments received in the consultation and the experience of recent prosecutions. They have been amended to clarify additional evidential and public interest considerations relevant when prosecutors assess whether a prosecution is required in accordance with the code for Crown prosecutors.

The overall approach of the guidelines remains the same, making a clear distinction between communications which amount to credible threats of violence, a targeted campaign of harassment or breach of court orders on the one hand, and other communications—for example, grossly offensive communications—on the other. The first group will be prosecuted robustly. Whereas cases in the second group, which meet the evidential stage, are unlikely to require a prosecution in the public interest if the sender expresses genuine remorse, the communication is swiftly removed, it is not intended for a wide audience or does not obviously go beyond what could conceivably be acceptable in a diverse society which upholds and respects freedom of expression.

Copies of the final guidelines have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses.

Foreign Affairs Council (Trade)

Thursday 20th June 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)]

The EU Foreign Affairs Council (Trade) took place in Luxembourg on 14 June 2013. I and Sir John Cunliffe represented the UK on all the issues discussed at the meeting. A summary of those discussions follows.

One legislative item was discussed: the Commission’s two trade omnibus proposals which bring common commercial (trade) policy regulation into line with post-Lisbon decision-making arrangements. Council noted the political agreement reached in trilogue on the trade omnibus proposals and congratulated the presidency on this significant achievement. The Commission (de Gucht) welcomed the milestone, after a protracted negotiation between the institutions.

Free trade agreements

The negotiating mandate for the transatlantic trade and investment partnership (TTIP) was agreed, authorising the Commission to enter into trade talks with the US. Audiovisual (AV) services are excluded from the mandate for now, but the Commission retains the right to discuss AV with the US and to return to the Council for a revised mandate if inclusion of AV would improve the deal.

On Canada, the Commission (de Gucht) provided a brief update over lunch on these negotiations. A low-key update, with some limited progress noted on minor issues, but little movement on the three major outstanding issues: agricultural markets access; rail procurement; and financial services.

Trade relationship with China

The EU’s relationship with China was discussed over lunch. Discussion was dominated by the high-profile trade defence cases (solar panels and telecoms). The Commission was criticised for its handling of the cases. I and some others stressed the importance of maintaining a positive strategic partnership with China.

AOB: Bangladesh textiles factory collapse

Under AOB, France and the Netherlands introduced a joint paper on strengthening the sustainable development elements in FTAs and promoting EU action to improve labour standards in the garment industry. Denmark expressed support. The Commission (de Gucht) outlined its planned activities. The presidency undertook to make a public statement following the Council.

WTO ninth ministerial

There was not time for this agenda item.

ECOFIN

Thursday 20th June 2013 Written Statements

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Greg Clark)]

A meeting of the Economic and Financial Affairs Council will be held in Luxembourg on 21 June 2013. The following items are on the agenda to be discussed.

Contribution to the European Council meeting on 27-28 June 2013—European semester 2013

Council will consider the fiscal and economic elements of the country specific recommendations (CSRs) for member states. The UK’s CSRs are broadly in line with domestic reform priorities. The Council recommendations are non-binding and there are no sanctions for non-compliance.

Implementation of the stability and growth pact

Council will discuss the implementation of the Commission’s recommendations related to the excessive deficit procedure (EDP) for a number of member states.

Commission/European Investment Bank (EIB) report to the European Council

Following the March European Council, the Commission, together with the European Investment Bank, are expected to report to the June European Council on the implementation of the ElB’s capital increase. The Commission/EIB will present their initial findings to Council.

Financial assistance to Ireland and Portugal

Council will consider two Council implementing decisions amending previous implementing decisions on granting Union financial assistance to Ireland and Portugal.

ECB/Commission convergence reports and enlargement of the euro area

The euro area member states will make a recommendation to the Council on Latvia’s euro adoption. The UK does not have a vote on the decision by EU member states to adopt the euro. ECOFIN will also prepare a letter for the President of the Council to send to the European Council summarising discussions.

Development of policy options in the climate/energy field—follow up to the May European Council

At the request of Poland, Council will hold a state of play discussion on this item.

Code of conduct (business taxation)

As with each presidency, the Council will be asked to endorse conclusions accompanying the code of conduct group report on progress made under the Irish presidency.

ECOFIN report to the European Council on tax issues

This is the six-monthly report which ECOFIN forwards on to the European Council, summarising the progress made under each presidency on tax issues.

Report by Finance Ministers on tax issues in the framework of the euro plus pact

This is the six-monthly report which summarises progress made under each presidency on tax issues in relation to framework of the euro plus pact.

Proposal for a Council directive amending directive 2011/16/U as regards mandatory automatic exchange of information in the field of taxation

The Commission will present a proposal on amending the existing administrative co-operation directive. The UK will look to ensure that any amendments do not conflict with or undermine the embedding of a new global standard in the automatic exchange of tax information.

Banking recovery and resolution directive

The presidency will seek a general approach on the banking recovery and resolution directive (BRRD). The UK supports the concept of a strong framework in Europe for bank recovery and resolution and broadly welcomed the Commission’s proposal. It will be important that any agreement on the BRRD delivers a credible and useable bail-in tool. Domestically, the UK has already taken tough action to reform the banking sector. This includes implementing a new resolution regime, the largest bank levy in Europe and structural reforms to the banking sector (for example, the Vickers ring-fencing).

Any other business

The presidency intends to give a state of play update on the deposit guarantee schemes directive.

Rented Sector Guarantees

Thursday 20th June 2013 Written Statements

[The Minister for Housing (Mr Mark Prisk)]

The rented sector has become increasingly important in meeting people’s housing needs over the last decade. On 6 September 2012, the Government announced the housing guarantees schemes as part of a package of measures to expand the provision of rented housing and boost economic growth. The Government are setting up two guarantees schemes: one to support the delivery of large-scale professionally managed purpose-built accommodation for private rent and a second to support delivery of additional affordable homes. The Government will guarantee up to £10 billion of housing providers’ debt through the two schemes.

I can announce today that the housing guarantees are open for business. We have awarded the licence to provide the affordable housing guarantees scheme to Affordable Housing Finance plc, a subsidiary of the Housing Finance Corporation Ltd. Their bid provided very good value for money, and I am looking forward to working with them to deliver the scheme. Affordable Housing Finance are now able to receive applications and we expect the first applications to be approved this summer, subject to due diligence.

Today, I have laid before the house a minute setting out details of the contingent liability created by the affordable housing guarantees schemes. Under the affordable housing guarantees scheme, the Department for Communities and Local Government will guarantee up to £3.5 billion of debt on terms of up to 30 years for private registered providers who commit to building new affordable housing.

We are also now able to consider direct applications for the private rented sector guarantees scheme. The response to our invitation to tender for delivery of the scheme indicated a demand from larger investors for individual direct debt guarantees and that Government should take the first steps in developing this new market. We are in conversation with the sector and committed to exploring all of the market-led options, which will lead to guarantees becoming available as soon as possible. We will look to offer direct guarantees on money raised in the bond market by housing providers investing in large-scale and purpose-built private rented sector projects. The Government’s scheme rules for the guarantees are unchanged. Some potential borrowers are already discussing applications with my officials and others are invited to do the same. A formal application process will open shortly.

Reserves (Call-out Order)

Thursday 20th June 2013 Written Statements

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

With the expiry of the call-out order made on 29 June 2012, a new order has been made under section 56(l)(a) of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 to enable reservists to continue to be called out into permanent service as part of the United Kingdom’s contribution to the United Nations Forces in Cyprus (UNFICYP). Some 133 reservists are currently called out in support of UNFICYP. All are serving in Cyprus.

The new order is effective until 28 June 2014.

European Arrest Warrant

Thursday 20th June 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)]

On 16 April 2013, I informed the House that the Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) had identified an error in the way in which they had captured and reported the number of outgoing (part 3) European arrest warrants (EAWs) that have been issued since 2009-10. As I set out in April, I take this matter extremely seriously, and undertook to establish whether any adverse consequential issues may have arisen, as well as ensure that any inaccurate data that may have been provided to Parliament are corrected. Accordingly, I asked HM chief inspector of constabulary (HMCIC), in collaboration with SOCA, to audit SOCA’s systems for collecting data on EAWs; to validate the EAW figures; to ensure that the error identified in collecting data had no detrimental impact on public protection; and to provide assurances that SOCA’s new case information management system (CIMS) will provide accurate data in future.

This audit is now complete and I would like to thank HMCIC for the work his inspectorate have done to produce their report so promptly, copies of which are in the House Library. The report found that; a) the audit SOCA undertook to verify the data was robust, and the part 1 audit would result in the identification of more arrests and surrenders than previously promulgated; b) there was no evidence of systemic weaknesses that would adversely affect public protection; and c) CIMS would help SOCA record more accurate data in future.

The report also made a number of recommendations about work going forward, including: extending the auditing process to compare SOCA’s EAW data with information held on the police national computer; to give consideration to a focused campaign to find and arrest fugitives hiding in the UK; and to review the progress of all other changes to SOCA’s EAW process (including the implementation of CIMS) before the end of 2013. SOCA has accepted all these recommendations.

My officials will work with SOCA and, going forward, the National Crime Agency, to ensure that these recommendations are fully implemented.

SOCA has now provided revised data relating to incoming (part 1) and outgoing (part 3) EAWs. A high-level summary of the data is attached to this statement. The revised data will also be published on both the Home Office and SOCA websites.

This information should be seen as superseding any figures on EAW numbers which had previously been provided to Parliament in response to parliamentary questions asked on this issue since 2009-10, as well as in response to enquiries and reports from parliamentary committees.

Summary of corrected EAW figures

The following tables refer to revised figures as issued by SOCA. A complete breakdown of the corrected figures can be found on the Home Office and SOCA websites:

http://www.soca.gov.uk/.

http://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office.

Guardianship of Property and Affairs of Missing Persons

Thursday 20th June 2013 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mrs Helen Grant)]

The Government stated in their response to the 12th report of the Justice Committee in the 2010-12 Session on presumption of death (Cm 8377, published July 2012) that the Ministry of Justice would discuss with the Law Commission whether it could take on a project on the need for legislation to create a status of guardian for the affairs of a missing person within England and Wales.

These discussions have now concluded. The Law Commission was keen to take on the project, and was willing to adjust its planned programme of family law work to enable it to do so. However, because of the negative impact on other important reform projects that this would have involved, the Ministry of Justice has decided not to ask the Commission to disrupt its programme and, instead, will take forward the project within the Department.

I am therefore pleased to announce that the Department intends to publish a consultation paper on this subject later this year with a view to taking a final decision in 2014 on whether a status of guardian should be created. In preparing the consultation paper the Department will be assisted by the charity Missing People, and its legal advisers, the pro bono section of Clifford Chance LLP. The Department is very grateful to Missing People and Clifford Chance for their assistance and to the Law Commission for its engagement with Government on this matter.

The Department will also engage with organisations representing business interests in preparing the consultation paper.

Presumption of Death Act 2013

Thursday 20th June 2013 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mrs Helen Grant)]

The Presumption of Death Act 2013 received Royal Assent on 26 March 2013. Sections 9 and 15(4) of and schedule 1 to the Act (so far as they confer a power to make rules or regulations) and sections 17 to 24 (inclusive) came into force on that date. The remainder of the Act will be brought into force by order made by statutory instrument on a date to be appointed by the Secretary of State.

The Ministry of Justice and the General Register Office are working to create the necessary rules of court and registration regulations and the associated procedures. It is expected that this work will be completed in time for the remaining provisions of the Act to be brought into force in April 2014. However, this date is not certain and I will make a further statement regarding the timing of commencement before the end of 2013.

IPSA's Main Estimate (2013-14)

Thursday 20th June 2013 Written Statements

[Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne)]

(Representing the Speaker’s Committee for the IPSA): The Speaker’s Committee for the IPSA is established under the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009. Under statute it must review IPSA’s estimate before it is laid before the House and decide whether it is satisfied that the estimate is consistent with the efficient and cost-effective discharge by IPSA of its functions. If it is not satisfied, the Committee must modify the estimate to achieve that efficiency and cost-effectiveness. When considering the estimate the Committee must consult the Treasury and have regard to any advice given.

The Committee, having considered IPSA’s draft estimate 2013-14 in accordance with paragraph 22(3) of schedule 1 to the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009, has decided to modify the structure of the estimate by replacing IPSA’s single subhead (B) covering all operational costs with two subheads (B and C) covering core operational costs and project costs respectively.

It reached this decision following advice from HM Treasury that it might be desirable to provide separate entries on the face of the estimate for core operational costs, which are subject to an annual 5% savings target, and for project costs, which are outside the savings target. The Committee concluded that the formal separation of the entries would provide greater assurance that costs have been attributed correctly and sensibly to the individual budgets, and that the 5% target was being achieved. It would be in line with IPSA’s statutory duty to have regard to the principle that it should act in a way which is efficient, cost effective and transparent in carrying out its functions.

The Committee also had regard to a request from HM Treasury that it should explore IPSA’s capability to make additional savings on its operational costs, beyond its existing 5% target, in the current financial year. Having discussed this with IPSA, the Committee concluded that the Authority did not have the capacity for additional savings this year. It therefore found IPSA’s request for resources to be appropriate, and approved it without amendment.

The estimate as modified by the Committee was laid on Wednesday 19 June (HC 396). The statutory report detailing the Committee’s reasons for modifying the structure of the estimate. Statement under schedule 1 of the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009, HC 455 will be available from 11.00 am on Thursday 20 June.

Motoring Services Strategy

Thursday 20th June 2013 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Stephen Hammond)]

The Department for Transport is committed to delivering better quality and better value motoring services to the public and business. I am therefore pleased to announce today that a new single agency will bring together the testing and standards services that are currently provided by the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) and the Driving Standards Agency (DSA). These services will be delivered by the two agencies under a single chief executive and transitional board from July this year.

Bringing together the testing and standards services currently provided by VOSA and DSA will enable a single agency to deliver the same high-quality service, but with greater efficiency, potentially allowing for the reduction of fees. It will be easier for customers to navigate the services offered, and will reduce the administrative burden for those individuals and businesses that currently have regular contact with both DSA and VOSA. The initial move will take place in July this year—a single chief executive and transitional board will oversee the two trading funds. The trading funds will continue in their current form for at least the next 12 months. By that time we expect the detail of the structural reorganisation to be complete.

This move will result in an improved service to the public. We will work to ensure that there is no detrimental effect on the high quality of customer service delivery during the transitional phase. We are also working closely with employees from the agencies to help support them through the changes.

This announcement follows the consultation on our motoring services strategy which ran from 13 December 2012 to 7 March 2013. The strategy proposed rationalising the roles and numbers of agencies to provide an improved and more efficient delivery of motoring services to customers. Respondents to the consultation were generally supportive of this proposal, recognising the benefits that such a move would bring, but were keen to protect the quality of services.

I am also publishing the summary of responses to that consultation. Decisions on any other proposals detailed in the motoring services strategy will be announced in due course.

Grand Committee

Thursday 20th June 2013 Grand Committee

Thursday, 20 June 2013.

Social Mobility

Thursday 20th June 2013 Grand Committee

Question for Short Debate

14:00

Asked by

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to promote social mobility, and what assessment they have made of the impact of factors such as character and resilience on individuals’ prospects.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield]

My Lords, social mobility is part of a fair and just society. The belief that children from poorer families should have the same opportunity to succeed in life as children from wealthy families is something that rightly unites politicians across the political spectrum. Yet social mobility in this country is at least flat-lining and, although statistics in this area are always open to interpretation, many commentators believe that it has gone into reverse.

To illustrate this point, the first politician I am going to quote—and this may surprise your Lordships—is Michael Gove, who said recently:

“More than any other developed nation, ours is a country in which your parentage dictates your progress … those who are born poor are more likely to stay poor and those who inherit privilege are more likely to pass on privilege. For those of us who believe in social justice this stratification and segregation are morally indefensible”.

For me, nothing demonstrates this more starkly than the fact that although just 7% of pupils are privately educated, they account for 59% of our Cabinet Ministers, 45% of our senior civil servants, 15 out of 17 of our Supreme Court judges and heads of Division, and 54% of our country’s leading journalists. While one in five children is on free school meals, this can be said of just one in 100 Oxbridge entrants.

Since what has been called the golden age of social mobility, starting in the post-war years until the 1970s, things have fallen into decline. As the recent report by the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission shows, our leading universities may be some of the best in the world but over the past 10 years they have become less, not more, socially inclusive and increasingly the preserve of the elite. I am sure that other noble Lords will want to comment on this point.

The gap between the rich and the poor does matter. The influence of parental income on the income of children in Britain is among the strongest in the OECD. Parental income has more than one and a half times the impact on male incomes in Britain compared with Canada, Sweden and Norway. We also know that income inequality in Australia and Canada is similar to the UK, but they have significantly higher levels of social mobility, on a par with Sweden and Norway.

So what is going wrong? It is to the credit of this coalition Government that they have made social mobility a central plank of their social policy, and I welcome the efforts already made to tackle the barriers of disadvantage. I strongly welcome the Deputy Prime Minister’s announcement of the social mobility business compact to help ensure that all young people have fair access to job opportunities; the recent increase to the pupil premium budget to provide extra support to the most disadvantaged children; the extended access to early years education for disadvantaged two year-olds; and the additional help to get young unemployed people back into work or learning through the youth contract.

What more could and should be done? The All-Party Parliamentary Group on Social Mobility, of which I am vice-chair, has sought to shine a spotlight on some critical areas of debate that are all too often overlooked. The APPG report, 7 Key Truths about Social Mobility, set out the key issues on which policy should focus, looking at the unequal opportunities that start in the earliest years of life and too often persist and widen in later life. These truths cover the importance of the early years in the home; the critical importance of education, including both the quality of teaching and extracurricular activities; the pivotal role of access to universities, including part-time study; and the need for other pathways to mobility, such as apprenticeships.

The final truth, which I want to focus on, is that of character and resilience, something the All-Party Parliamentary Group saw as the missing link in the chain. Character and resilience are somewhat amorphous terms, which some might choose to dismiss as fluffy or cosmetic soft skills. In fact, the very term “soft skills” strikes me as something of a misnomer. Far from being fluffy, developing character and resilience is about developing the fundamental drive, tenacity and perseverance needed to make the most of opportunities and to succeed in life, whatever the obstacles. It is about self-esteem, self-discipline, aspiration and expectation. In everyday language, it is about believing you can achieve, understanding the relationship between effort and reward, sticking with the task at hand and bouncing back from the knocks that life inevitably involves.

Recent survey evidence from the Prince’s Trust tells us that young people from affluent backgrounds are more likely to be told by their family that they can achieve anything, and that one in four young people from poorer backgrounds felt that people like them do not succeed in life; if they have, for example, failed an exam or been turned down for a job, they are more likely to feel that they have already failed. There is also a growing body of evidence showing the link between developing the social and emotional skills and doing well academically and in the workplace. Research by the IPPR indicates that personal and social skills have become 33 times more important in determining life chances, while soft skills have become 10 times more important in determining future incomes in a single generation. Paul Tough’s recent book, How Children Succeed, also illustrates the ways in which character skills contribute to cognitive ability along with the American Nobel prize-winning economist James Heckman, who found that character traits are just as predictive of academic or job success as more traditional cognitive skills and, indeed, that the two are very much linked.

The really good news from all this research is the evidence that these character or personality traits are not innate. They can be taught and developed through life. Heckman has shown that investing early in these skills, particularly with disadvantaged children, generates strong economic returns. Looking exclusively at earning gains, returns to cash invested can be seen to be as high as 15% to 17%. These so-called “soft skills” can lead to hard results.

In the light of this evidence, the All-Party Parliamentary Group, with generous support from the Open University, hosted a character and resilience summit earlier this year. Whether hearing from Tony Little, the headmaster of Eton, on how he teaches his pupils about dealing with failure, or Camila Batmanghelidjh, the founder of Kids Company, about working with some of the most deeply traumatised children in the country to rebuild their basic self-worth and faith in life, the summit confirmed to me that, for those who care about social justice, developing character and resilience is essential. As Alan Milburn, chair of the Social Mobility Commission, who was present on the day, emphasised, it is not ability that is unevenly distributed, it is opportunity. In order to overcome this disparity, what he describes as the “Berlin Wall” between state and private sector schools needs to be broken down.

We heard about some great work going on in state schools, too, with examples of volunteering in the local community, outdoor activities which put pupils outside their comfort zone to develop their resilience and a really wide range of imaginative extracurricular activities. Indeed, we heard schools saying that developing such traits is now their core business and that, for employers, these less tangible skills of sticking at it, not giving up, empathy and teamwork are precisely what they are looking for in potential recruits. Overall, the message that we heard from academics, head teachers, employers and charity leaders alike is that, whatever qualifications you might have, where you are on the character scale will have a big impact on what you achieve in life.

Successive Governments’ efforts to narrow the gaps between the rich and the poor have largely focused on exam results. However, as the stark trends I outlined earlier show, just more of the same will not be enough. It is necessary, but it is not sufficient. That is why I call on the Government today to take more account of this growing evidence surrounding the role of character and resilience in improving social mobility and to start putting it into practice.

I have a few ideas to offer. More could be done in early years, working with health visitors and children’s centres, linked to the expansion of free early years education. To break down that so-called “Berlin Wall” between the state and independent sector schools, practical incentives are needed to encourage sharing of approaches and good practice. I would like to see schools being able to allocate greater space in the state curriculum for volunteering, sports, drama and music to help to bridge the gap, as well as using PSHE and citizenship to the full. I would particularly like to see the pupil premium being used directly to develop character and resilience and the identification and spread of good practice. Teacher training should include models for effective teaching of character and resilience. Because we all know what really drives behaviour in schools, I would like to see the Ofsted framework developed to include the importance of character and resilience to learning outcomes, and that reports and inspections say how effectively this is being addressed. These are just ideas, but I would welcome an assurance from the Minister that these and other ideas will be taken seriously as policy is developed.

I conclude by asking why this matters so much when in economic terms the case is clear. Studies suggest that reaching international benchmarks on social mobility could be worth around £150 billion a year in the UK, or the equivalent of a one-off increase in GDP of 4%. However, socially and morally the case is overwhelming. Someone who has overcome disadvantage, persevered in the face of adversity, and shown real strength of character is surely the one who deserves the opportunity to succeed and share in the rewards that society has to offer. Surely that is what a just society is all about.

14:10

[Baroness Perry of Southwark]

My Lords, I welcome this debate and I congratulate my noble friend on her excellent speech. Most particularly, I welcome her emphasis on character and resilience as factors in any individual’s prospects. Although Governments have a role in ensuring that any barriers to mobility are removed and that opportunity is open to all, no Government can determine how any individual will live his or her life. Upward mobility comes from individuals grasping opportunities, working hard against the odds, leaping over barriers, setting themselves high goals, and often swimming against the stream of their own community and background. These things are done through character and resilience.

Although I rarely speak in personal terms, today I want to illustrate why I believe so strongly in the response of individuals to opportunity by telling a personal story. I am immensely proud of the women of my family across three generations before me. My great-grandmother, the first of the three, was a working-class girl from Sunderland. She was widowed while still a young woman and was left, as I understand it, almost destitute. Too proud to seek charity, she turned her hand to taking in washing to support her family.

Despite this, she was determined that her daughter, my grandmother, would have an education. Each week she would put a penny of her hard-earned income into a tin on the mantelpiece to pay the fees for the Dame School her daughter attended. My grandmother proudly told my sister and me that although she was only a little girl, she realised both that her mother could ill afford the weekly fee and that she was needed at home to help with the huge barrels of washing, which were the family’s business. Therefore, she told us, she worked really hard to complete the work for her school leaving examination and graduated, as they say, at the age of 10 instead of 11. Incidentally, despite the short spell of her education with an unqualified teacher, my grandmother wrote beautifully in an elegant script with perfect grammar and spelling, and read newspapers and books voraciously until her death at the age of 87.

The second of these women, my grandmother, had clearly inherited the character and resilience of her mother and was determined that her daughter, my mother, would have an even better education. Facing up to the prejudices of her husband, who said, “What’s the point of education for a girl? She’s going to get married, isn’t she?”, my grandmother’s fight was with him to ensure that my musically gifted mother won a scholarship to grammar school, stayed on for the sixth form, and gained both her teacher’s certificate and musical qualification from the Royal College of Music.

So we come to my gifted, passionate about education, aspirational mother, the rightful heir to her two female forebears. My earliest memories are of her 12-hour days spent teaching, marking, preparing lessons, cooking, cleaning and caring for her husband and two daughters. She coached us in our schoolwork and cheered us on to succeed at whatever we chose to do. I am for ever grateful to her.

These splendid women had strong characters and enormous resilience. They had little help from the state, but grasped every opportunity that came their way. They are, I believe, a paradigm for the determinants of social mobility. Governments of course have a duty to ensure that opportunities are there to be grasped and that the barriers of prejudice, injustice and low aspiration are removed. This Government are working to do just that, but ultimately it is people, women and men of determination who take their destiny into their hands and move from deprivation to aspiration. Such individuals shape not only their own destiny, but in so doing they move the whole of society forward.

14:14

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness. Listening to her stories, I commend to her Alan Johnson’s memoir of his childhood, which tells a similar and brilliant story. I say at the outset that I have just started working for Brent Council, chairing a commission on social mobility, which reflects on the achievement in their schools, which are now outperforming the national average but with no impact on social mobility or poverty. The council wants to understand that. That reflects my interest in community social mobility as much as individual social mobility. I very much welcome the debate and the way in which it was introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler.

By happy coincidence, today is also marked by Ofsted publishing its excellent report, Unseen Children: Access and Achievement 20 Years On. It is a welcome return by the Chief Inspector of Schools, Sir Michael Wilshaw, to focus on outcomes for disadvantaged pupils in England. Ofsted has found that underperformance is no longer dominated by areas with concentrations of deprivation. There is an explicit acknowledgement of the success of Labour’s London Challenge, set up by Stephen Twigg MP and then taken over by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, the subsequent Manchester Challenge, overseen by the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, and the Black Country Challenge, which I looked after. Those challenges used data to shine a light on underperformance and to identify top-performing leaders who could then support and challenge those schools and leaders who needed it most. The report therefore points to the importance of collaboration and to Governments taking a strategic approach to focus attention where improvement is needed.

I very much welcome the message from Ofsted that the rest of the country can learn from London. If Hackney, Newham and Tower Hamlets can raise results for free school meal pupils by 20% over five years and be 15% to 20% better than the national average, then anyone can. In the same period, my home county of Dorset managed only a 2% improvement for free school meals children, remaining 10% below the national average for those poorer pupils. It is high time that we shook schools in rural and coastal areas out of any complacency and used data to expose the underachievement of those who need good education more than most.

If we solve those problems in school, would we solve the problems of social mobility? Sadly, we need to do more. As the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, said, we need to build resilience, to build the capability of all of us to deal with mistakes, to take risks and to learn from failure, to celebrate that failure, to have the traditional stiff upper lip but with empathy. That resilience is being strategically built in London boroughs such as Newham and Islington at both community and individual level. Alongside Every Child a Reader and Every Child Counts, Newham has Every Child a Musician as a programme and, as a council, has a huge volunteering programme for 7,000 elderly people. Elsewhere, organisations such as the Transformation Trust and Future First are doing a great job in offering after-school activity and state school alumni programmes which mirror some of the success of the private sector.

If we build resilience, will that do the trick? Another great obstacle remains. That is the poverty trap. I cannot see how children can get the support that they need at home, working with schools, or a richness of aspiration when they are burdened by acute poverty. Growing numbers of families, in Devon as much as Durham, are dependent on food banks to feed their families. The shortage of affordable housing to rent or own is common across rural and coastal areas and leads to overcrowding and very difficult study environments for children. Free-school-meal children need free school meals, but they are being cut. Rising debt leads to relationship breakdown. All of those features of poverty are getting worse. We need a welfare state that is not about managing poverty but more about helping people get out of poverty.

The Government are making life very uncomfortable for people dependent on welfare, but lack of time prevents me giving your Lordships anecdotes of the stories I have heard by those affected by the single-room rate and the benefit cap in Brent. The poverty trap is deepening, and increased homelessness, criminality and child poverty is the natural consequence. That in turn will further damage the social mobility and our country will continue to pay the price in a tragic waste of talent.

14:18

[Baroness Sharp of Guildford]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Tyler for introducing the debate and apologise to her and other Members in the Chamber for my being a few moments late. It was one of those annoying times when the first train was cancelled and the second got stuck outside Waterloo. I do apologise.

I very much appreciate the degree to which, by having this debate, my noble friend has focused our minds on the work of the APPG and, in particular, the report, with its seven key truths about social mobility. I was particularly struck by the commonsense definition of social mobility: the extent to which where you end up in terms of social class is different from where you started. It pointed out that that means that sometimes, people go down as well as up. It is also linked with a sense of happiness and well-being. You need to have aspirations—this comes out in character and resilience—and to have aspirations you need to be able to see a better future for yourself.

I want to concentrate my remarks on the universities as a key determinant of later opportunities. Great strides have been made in widening participation over the last two decades. For those in the socio-economic bracket of the lowest 20%, the difference in participation has gone from 9% in 2004 to 14% in 2011-12, which is very significant. For the bottom two quintiles it is now up to almost 20%, but that compares to 45% for the top quintile. It is therefore interesting that whereas the introduction of tuition fees has seen a 2% to 3% fall-off in application rates from the top quintile, this is not true of the bottom quintile. Those in the lower socio-economic brackets have actually maintained their participation rates rather than falling off. Equally, it is still three times more likely that if you come from the top economic group, you will go to university—and disproportionately so if you go to a private rather than a state school.

The publication earlier this week of the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission’s Fair Access Challenge in relation to universities, which reprised a report that it published last year, reminds us that while the general feeling in relation to universities is positive from the lower socio-economic groups, in the top Russell group universities the participation from those bottom groups is far lower, and fell during that same period of 2004 to 2012. Much of this, as the Seven Key Truths report makes clear, is because state school pupils do not achieve the required entry grades. This is why it is so important to improve the quality of teaching and teachers in state schools. As the noble Lord, Lord Knight, indicated, this is possible. The position of the London boroughs shows so well what can be achieved.

However, the conundrum is that there are still something like 3,700 or so young people who achieve the required grades but do not apply. This suggests that the widening participation message is not reaching them or, perhaps more significantly, their teachers. The message to the Government from this is that we most not relax the widening participation agenda, whether it is through pressure from OFFA or HEFCE’s funding towards widening participation.

I should like to flag up two very important issues. First, on information, advice and guidance, there has been an almost complete collapse of careers education in schools and it is absolutely vital that young people get good and relevant advice. Secondly, the national scholarship programme needs reform. Most of the funding for this comes from the universities themselves, some of which use it for fee remission and fee waivers. Research has shown that this is much less effective than such things as supporting summer schools and outreach programmes. We need to be much smarter in using this money.

14:23

[Lord Northbourne]

My Lords, in the time available I shall attempt to make only one point. There is no doubt in my mind that upward social mobility in our society—funnily, nobody ever speaks about downward social mobility—can be unfair to individuals and a lack of it can impoverish society. In spite of the withering critique by Civitas in the report that was published for this debate, I still believe that there is an extraordinarily strong case for encouraging upward social mobility. Like other noble Lords who have spoken, the Sutton Trust focused on the link between poverty and lack of social mobility. I recognise that that is extremely important, but we should by no means be perceiving it as the only cause or problem. There are other causes. The Government have done a lot to intervene and to support parents when their relationships break down or when their family falls apart. In my view, however, I question whether they are doing nearly enough to prevent these things happening in the first place. There is a real opportunity for prevention by doing more in schools to prepare young people for the challenges, responsibilities and opportunities of adult life.

There is a particular window of opportunity during adolescence around key stage 3, when most young people are eager to know more about the adult world they see looming ahead of them. In the best schools they get well trained teachers helping them to discuss and work out their hopes and problems—to think about and discuss the opportunities, challenges and responsibilities they will meet in the adult life that lies ahead of them.

Sadly, in the vast majority of schools, little or nothing is being done today to give pupils the help they need, while all the time commercial pressure and the media are doing their best to mislead them. Why are we not helping young people more?

There is a nominal entitlement to PSHE at key stage 3, but the recent Ofsted reports make it perfectly clear that in most secondary schools today, if PSHE is on the agenda at all it is delivered by teachers who have no specialist training in this subject. This is a seriously missed opportunity.

Help at that stage could bring two things. It could help the young people themselves to live better and fuller lives throughout their life. And it could also lead to their future children to have more stable and supportive environments in their families as they grown up.

I beg the Government to do more to help and lead young people to think more about the adult lives which lie ahead of them and to learn how to cope with the inevitable problems they will have to face from time to time. I beg the Government to set aside a little money—at least just a little money—to fund some of the teacher-training universities, so that they can research and develop programmes for that kind of teacher training. I know one that would be interested.

14:27

[The Lord Bishop of Derby]

My Lords, I want to remind us of the context that a number of us have mentioned. Since the mid-1970s, there has been an increasing gap between those at the top and those at the bottom. That is the pole that we are talking about in terms of social mobility. We have three big groups now: those who are doing well; those who are surviving; and those who are dropping below the radar—that is the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Knight, about the poverty trap.

As other noble Lords have mentioned, social mobility between those poles implies the reality that some people are going down. I want to focus on that briefly, alongside the proper aspiration to help people go up. People will always be going down as well as up. If the measure is an economic and occupational one, we will struggle. We need other measures really to go for what I would call social inclusion. We should not talk about social mobility without talking about social inclusion, so that we reach out to those who are going down.

We know how easy it is for people to fall out of being included. There are emphases on particular skills or educational models which some people cannot access. We have a winner-take-all mentality, so we discard people quite easily. Sadly, the media and public attitudes are quite harsh towards those who are poor and in the poverty trap. There is a great deficit of compassion in our society. That is why the linking of this with character and resilience is so important. That is where we can be inclusive socially, whatever is happening economically or occupationally.

It was very inspiring to hear the family story of the noble Baroness, Lady Perry because resilience and character are not individual things; they are relational. One of the things that must be part of this mix is government doing all it can with others to support resilient families—like that of the noble Baroness—so that that can be a base for character and resilience in individual lives.

I want to give two brief examples from my own context. I am the Bishop of Derby, and Derby College works with the Prince’s Trust Team Programme. I have had contact with and heard the stories of people with Asperger’s syndrome, dyslexia, impaired vision or family breakdown—all the factors that get someone down and put them out of the loop. Through simple mentoring programmes and plenty of encouragement, character and resilience is built up, and there are many inspiring stories of people getting back into the game.

The charity JET is situated right in the middle of Derby. It is all about jobs, education and training. It brings together youngsters from testing environments and their schools recommend the programme for them. Through the mentoring and work experience that is available through engaging with this scheme, on average these youngsters’ exam grades go up fourfold. Simple things being done by small organisations can complement the family and give people character and resilience.

The point I really want to make is that character and resilience are not important simply so that someone can be more economically active; more important, they are the stuff of citizenship. We need the FE sector and charities like JET in Derby to build up the character and resilience of citizens so that when they are going down, as will happen, they have the qualities and resources to engage and get back up again.

I want to end with a number of questions for the Minister. Will he comment on the issue of social inclusion for those who are pushed downwards by the fact of social mobility? Could he also comment on the role of FE colleges and voluntary sector organisations in this? How can the Government support the formation of resilient families? Lastly, as young people build character, how can they develop a portfolio that they can carry around with them to show employers in the same way they show their exam results? How can we help young people to demonstrate that they are team players and are willing to turn up regularly? How can they show that they are characterful and resilient citizens? We need some kind of award, which would be a way of accepting and applauding the development of those skills.

14:31

[Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer]

My Lords, I warmly thank my noble friend for enabling us to discuss this important issue. I think I subscribe more to the idea of equality than to that of social mobility for the reasons that the right reverend Prelate has just set out so well. It is gone into in depth in the book, The Spirit Level: Why Equality is Better for Everyone, and pursued by the work of the Equality Trust. Nevertheless, I recognise that character and resilience are very important, but perhaps noble Lords will dwell for a moment on how much character and resilience a child can have if they come to school without having had any breakfast and with perhaps just a Mars bar for lunch. Obviously, it does not mean that a child will not have any character, but the fact is that the child’s body will be in a much less good state for learning.

I have the privilege of chairing the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Food and Health. We have heard from a number of academics over the years about the impact that diet has on children’s ability to learn and on their life chances. Many noble Lords have spoken in this debate about the importance of education, and indeed my noble friend in her excellent introduction said that it is critical. If children are not able to learn because their diet is too poor, they are crucially disadvantaged for their entire life.

I can give some specific examples of this, one from Professor Andrew Scholey, the director of the Human Cognitive Neuroscience unit based at Northumbria University. The study he presented to our group compared the cognitive effects in children of two different breakfasts. One had a high glycaemic load—Coco Pops—and the other a low glycaemic load—All-Bran, but it could have been porridge. He found that the low GI breakfast is much more effective in protecting against a decline in performance. Other work on this has been done jointly by Nuffield College and the University of Essex showing effects on memory and attention span. Indeed, a survey by the Local Authority Catering Association found that snack foods that are high in sugar and fat produce problem behaviour. We can definitely say that a healthy diet improves children’s behaviour and academic performance. Of course, if you are badly behaved in school to enough of a degree, you end up being excluded, at the worst end of the spectrum, or possibly on Ritalin, because your diet means that you are on a permanent sugar high. There has also been much national and international research into the effect of vitamins, minerals and other compounds, such as amino-acids, on brain chemistry. Among the nutrients known to affect mood and behaviour are zinc, essential fatty acids, vitamins B5 and B6, calcium and magnesium.

I am sure that when the family of the noble Baroness, Lady Perry of Southwark, was going through that tremendous educational attainment, the diet may have been more basic but would have been more likely to contain the nutrients I have mentioned than the diet of today’s children. So the first problem is diet. The second problem is the lack of breakfast clubs. My final question to the Minister is: will he encourage Sir Michael Wilshaw at Ofsted to address this issue and not belittle the role of food in attainment?

14:36

[Lord Bilimoria]

My Lords, the claim that social mobility in Britain has been falling is made regularly. On the other hand, a lot of the research on class mobility does not support this. Lots of studies have found that, if anything, relative class mobility—the probability of a working-class child getting into the middle class and a middle-class child ending up working class—has been rising since the 1950s. There is no question about it, however, there is a relationship between inequality and earnings elasticity. The Gini coefficient—a measure of inequality—has been rising over the last 20 to 30 years, particularly in countries like the United Kingdom and the United States, but also in Australia and Canada.

There is no question that there is a relationship between earnings and the benefit of going to university. On the other hand, there is a correlation between higher spending on higher education and higher levels of mobility. The reality is that we underinvest in higher education compared to the United States, compared to the EU average and compared to the OECD average. We do not invest as much in higher education as we should.

Despite this, however, our universities are doing a good job. Universities UK has shown that there has been a 30% increase in the proportion of young people from our most disadvantaged backgrounds entering universities since 2004. Progress is therefore being made. Are the Government are aware of a fabulous programme called GEEMA, the Group to Encourage Ethnic Minority Applications, at the University of Cambridge started in 1989 and in which I have taken part? It is a wonderful programme whereby the ethnic minority undergraduates at Cambridge take a week off during the summer and state school children from ethnic minority backgrounds, whose families invariably have never had a background of education in their history, come to spend a week in Cambridge and experience a week in the life of Cambridge University. This programme has a phenomenal effect on creating aspiration among these children, many of whom end up going to Cambridge itself. The programme has helped increase the number of BME undergraduates from 5.5% to 15%. Could the Government roll out this sort of programme in more universities around the country?

Our academies are doing a great job, but as somebody born and brought up in India who came over here to be educated like others in my family for three generations, I believe that the biggest mistake this country made was getting rid of the grammar schools. We have deprived so many of our bright children of their ability to progress. I know that this is a controversial subject, but I strongly believe this.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, for leading this debate. She spoke about character and resilience. The headmaster of Eton College, Tony Little—and I declare an interest; my older son is there—has noted that boarding schools are the nation’s untapped asset. He has said that children learn more from each other than from adults. They learn more from outside the classroom than from within. There are so many ways in which we can learn from schools in the private sector—as the noble Baroness said they make up 7% of the total and they produce so much excellence—but unfortunately they are not available to everybody.

I conclude by saying that I have seen with my own eyes the change in this country from when I came as a student in the early 1980s, when there was no aspiration but there was a glass ceiling. That glass ceiling has now been shattered and there is the ability in this country for anyone to get anywhere, regardless of race, religion or background. That culture is so important because those people’s success creates inspiration; inspiration creates aspiration; aspiration creates achievement; achievement creates inspiration. It is a virtuous circle.

14:40

[Baroness Sherlock]

My Lords, this has been a great but very short debate. I am so sorry that I have only four minutes in which to respond, so I cannot possibly comment on the many wonderful speeches. However, there was some clear consensus around the Committee today. First, we all think that social mobility is good. We must also acknowledge that if we allow inequality to continue at the current level, it is inevitable that social mobility will require some people to go down as well as up, and perhaps go down quite a long way. Perhaps I can tempt the Minister to depart from his brief briefly and look at the way that someone like John Rawls might have encouraged us to think about the circumstances in which, given a choice of an equal or an unequal society, but with no way of knowing where we might end up in the distribution, most of us would come down firmly in favour of a more equal society. What might that tell us here?

With the possible exception of the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, there was also a recognition that social mobility is in trouble in Britain. After my first visit to the United States, I came away both impressed and shocked, feeling that I had come across a country which had very low social mobility but believed passionately in very high social mobility—hence the American dream. As my right honourable friend Ed Miliband said in a speech last year on this subject, the reality is that if you want the American dream, go to Finland. One of the challenges we have in Britain is that our social mobility is pretty poor by OECD standards, and slowing. We therefore have a problem; so what do we do?

I think we have all agreed that education is crucial. I will not repeat the many interesting ideas that have been put forward there. Most of us would agree that early intervention is also crucial. The previous Labour Government were very committed to this, as I am sure noble Lords will accept. We created Sure Start and invested in thousands of children’s centres. We also provided support for early years education and for disadvantaged pupils, and the attainment gap narrowed as a result. I worry about some of the changes in recent years. I am concerned at moves such as the scrapping of education maintenance allowance and the closure of children’s centres, and what that might mean down the track for opportunity.

I was pleased to hear both my noble friend Lord Knight of Weymouth and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby draw attention to some of the really severe barriers at the bottom where, with the best will in the world and even with lots of character, there are some pretty huge hurdles to overcome if one does not even get enough to eat, never mind having the kind of support that comes in other homes. That point was also made by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller. I, too, was hugely impressed at the great lineage that has produced the noble Baroness, Lady Perry. That clearly explains why we see such a force of nature here among us today.

I was also very interested to hear about the question of character because, aside from all the other questions, character and resilience are clearly important. I did a stint on the Riots, Communities and Victims Panel, which was set up to look into the 2011 riots. One thing we found was clear evidence that as well as enabling young people to take advantage of opportunities, character and resilience could mean that when a split-second moment of crisis came and someone had to make a choice that could be life changing, they would be enabled to make a good choice at that moment and not a bad one. It has real benefits both ways round. Given the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, to whose work and that of her All-Party Parliamentary Group I pay tribute, about the formation of character being as important—if not more important—than the acquisition of knowledge or other things, do the Government feel that that is reflected in their approach to the curriculum? I would be interested in the Minister's response on that.

I am with the right reverend prelate the Bishop of Derby on this: we need to be quite careful of being overly utilitarian. If we want to invest in character in order to get certain results, there is a slight danger that that is like trying to become happy, when it is by doing other things that one becomes happy. In that respect, in preparing for this debate I looked at various sources, including the Lexmond and Reeves 2009 report for Demos. I was childishly thrilled to find that they began with Aristotelian ethics. It was a fascinating notion. When Aristotle wrote about ethics, he was trying to set out the ways in which people could become better or pursue the good. However, they also told us that the closest translation of ta ethika was not, in fact, “ethics” but “matters to do with character”. In other words, character represents a set of life skills, not a moral disposition.

That tells us something quite exciting, I would suggest. It takes us to a view of character as a shorthand for a set of personal capabilities that research shows to be linked to a range of interesting positive outcomes. The report describes it as well-being. As the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby said, that needs to be understood as well-being in its broadest and deepest sense of human flourishing. If we have people who are flourishing, we will find people who are more likely to succeed, make the right decisions at crisis points, do better in exams and get more fulfilling jobs, but they would also be better people and would build a better society. That is the prize really worth having.

14:45

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, we have had a really good Moses Room debate. As I have experienced on several occasions, it is something like an academic seminar, from which one learns a good deal. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, partly because I should have been reading a lot of this stuff before and she made me read it. We have had a very interesting and informative debate in which I have to say that the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, was one of the most interesting and inspiring. I hope that we will now go away and start arguing about this more actively in our parties and groups to take it forward.

I have a speech with a whole range of statistics on what the Government are doing about social mobility, but I want to concentrate on character and resilience, which is the bit that has not been as emphasised in dealing with social mobility as it should have been.

I was originally a bit of a cynic about the big society, the national citizen service and community organisers, until I went to see a national citizen service scheme in Bradford last summer and spent a long afternoon with children from what I know to be some of the roughest schools in Bradford, when I was asked to teach them how to give a speech. It was fascinating, because I realised that I was dealing with people who thought that they could not do things, that they could never stand up in front of others and perform. I managed to persuade three of them to do so. I began to see that that course gives you that much more confidence to believe that you can do things which before you thought that you could not. I am now a strong proponent of national citizen service. We are expanding its coverage this summer. Of course, it is only one of the many elements that we need, but it is giving children at different levels more opportunity to realise: “I can do that”. It teaches them how to volunteer and to take part in community activities. That is exactly the sort of thing that helps.

Similarly with the community organisers’ scheme. In Yorkshire, I see the problems of social mobility most of all in the big, almost entirely white estates in Bradford and Leeds—and occasionally in Sheffield and Hull. There is very high unemployment, a lot of intergenerational unemployment and a deep sense of grievance that the local authority does not look after them, but they do not actually look after themselves very much. There is a high incidence of Staffordshire bull terriers. There is a sense that nothing much is being done for them. The community organisers’ scheme tries to get them back into the habit of thinking that they could do some things for themselves with themselves, the local authority and local voluntary organisations. That is how you start to rebuild a community, because, as the right reverend Prelate said, the collapse of local community is part of the problem here. Your nonconformist church, your established church or whatever gave you a lot of those skills as you grew up within it. Sunday schools were not just about learning the number of books in the Old Testament, there were a lot of other things as well. That part of what the Government are doing is useful.

I declare an interest. For the past seven years, I have been chair of a musical charity. I was bounced into it by some young men who have been choristers at Westminster Abbey a long time after me, who decided that they were going to set up not only a choir but something that would bring music into primary schools. Two weeks ago, as they took over a church in the City of London, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London and I watched the Hackney Youth Children’s Choir performing. Evidently from their clothing, they were children from deprived backgrounds, standing up and performing in front of us and really enjoying themselves and therefore getting a sense that they can do things.

I believe that music in schools, as well as sport and getting people out learning to volunteer, is a very important part of building self-confidence. One of the reasons why the Parliament Choir is so good is that music teaches you two of the basic political skills: one, standing up in front of other people; and two, projecting your voice. Of course, that suggests that not everything we do on character and resilience needs to be done by government, let alone central government. A lot of this can be done by volunteers, by non-governmental organisations and by government—locally and centrally—and civil society working together.

A number of people have talked about early years and talking to small children. I have another personal interest in that I watch my two-and-a-half year-old grandson and am deeply conscious that the amount you talk to a small child comes right back at you over the months, and that those whose parents do not talk to them are a long way behind by the time they are three. In spite of the attacks in the Daily Mail, I am strongly in favour of local authorities and voluntary organisations providing parenting class incentives, explaining to young parents in particular what they can do for their children before they go to school, such as breakfast clubs and children’s centres. My figures suggest that actually the reduction in the number of children’s centres has been extremely small in the past two or three years. There has been a certain amount of merging and so on. We all recognise that this is a very important part of the mix of things that we need to do.

Moving on to what one does in the later years, I find it very depressing as I go around Yorkshire and ask people in pubs, restaurants and hotels why they employ so many Poles, Slovaks, Lithuanians and so on, and the answer is almost always, “Because they turn up for work on time, they do not take sick leave, they dress smartly and they want to get on”. Unfortunately, the children from these big inner-city estates tend to take a lot of sickies and often do not really want to work the hours that they would have to. We should be motivating them to think, “Actually, this is quite fun” and that living in Upper Wharfedale or wherever it may be for a bit might be also quite fun. It is not just a matter of forcing people to work and showing them what they can do but showing them that they can follow their own careers and that work cheers you up.

The noble Lord, Lord Knight, asked how we get people out of poverty. The best way to get people out of poverty is to get them into work—I think we all agree—and that is partly where character and resilience are needed to motivate all these people who are growing up, sitting around and complaining. I am conscious that I am caricaturing a little—but not very much. I have a vivid memory of an afternoon in Armley jail in Leeds talking to the “popos”—the persistent and prolific offenders—and thinking that these people actually had the talent to do things if they had only been directed and encouraged in the right way.

A number of other points have been made about state schools and public schools. The question of public benefit is clearly one that we need to revisit. I know that a number of public schools are sharing their excellent facilities with local state schools. That needs to be encouraged. It is something that they should be doing on their own anyway. They can certainly help with volunteering and getting out in local communities, and that is something that we should be taking a good deal further.

Universities and access were mentioned. Again, I have an interest to declare. When I taught at the University of Oxford, every year I used to take children from sixth forms in Wandsworth around Oxford. It was a disillusioning experience, I have to say. I did it because my children were at state schools in Wandsworth. The culture clash between many of the working-class children from Wandsworth and the admissions tutors at Oxford colleges was sometimes far too wide to be able to bridge. It is excellent that the Sutton Trust and others are doing a great deal with summer schools and access programmes. Partly re-educating the admissions tutors is a road we need to go down.

Apprenticeships help a great deal, particularly as we move towards keeping people in school until 17 and 18 and discouraging people from dropping out of education altogether. Giving people practical and directed work experience with apprenticeships is highly desirable. The number of apprenticeships has been rising over the past two years and we wish to take it a good deal further. Volunteering of all sorts—the Girl Guides, the Woodcraft Folk and all those other things—used to provide opportunities for this. We have to build that back in. As has also been said, this is all part of citizenship. It is not an accident that those big, working-class estates only provide a 15% turnout at local elections and about 25% at general elections. They feel completely disengaged, so we need to rebuild the local community for all these activities.

We have heard about a wider range of issues from my noble friend Lady Miller, the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby on a more equal society and moral climate, which go wider than we can go on this occasion. We recognise that part of what went wrong over the past 25 years has been that we have become a much more atomised society, which valued wealth for its own sake and in which inequality has risen. Part of the argument that we all need to be making about taxation, personal reward and what companies and banks pay is that a society which is too unequal becomes a society which is very difficult to hold together. One loses a sense of common interest and community, locally, regionally and nationally. The banking commission hints at that in one or two places, but does not quite get sufficiently explicit on it; that sounds to me like a good role for the Church of England to take further in its contribution to the public debate.

Having made those comments as a wind-up to this seminar, I thank again my noble friend Lady Tyler for introducing this subject and for encouraging me to read a number of things which her All-Party Parliamentary Group has produced; I very much look forward to seeing what it produces from now on. I know that the Deputy Prime Minister and others are actively interested in the work of this group. We recognise that social mobility and inclusion are extremely complex areas. There is no single factor but a whole host of factors that come into play. I hope that we are all committed to building a more socially inclusive and coherent society.

14:45

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen)]

My Lords, we will now have a short break. The Committee stands adjourned until 3 pm.

Sitting suspended.

Financial Services

Thursday 20th June 2013 Grand Committee

Question for Short Debate

15:00

Asked by

[Lord Dykes]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures they are taking to support the contribution of the United Kingdom financial services sector to the economy.

[Lord Dykes]

My Lords, I very much welcome this debate and thank the Minister for being in attendance to answer the important points that I hope will be aired. Inevitably, I must deliberately leave out some items. There is so much to cover. The Minister and others in the debate will be delighted to learn, I am sure, that I am not going to try to cover everything. It would be a great mistake to do so.

I begin by congratulating the Minister and his colleagues on the agreement on the markets in financial instruments directive that was reached in the EU the day before yesterday. As the FT said yesterday, this was a good day for Britain in Europe,

“protecting the City of London against discrimination—proof that Britain’s interests are best served when the government sits at Europe’s top table rather than outside the room”.

That is an important lesson for the future.

The Parnassian beauty of this debate is that everybody more or less has the same time—nine minutes for every speaker, I think—as a result of our modest but high-quality list, including my old friend from the City, the noble Lord, Lord Flight. We changed the phraseology of the Question because I did not want the old Question concerning the City of London to obscure the obvious reality that there are many financial institutions elsewhere in the UK, from the West End of London to Edinburgh and other great cities. That is a fact of decentralisation, which is also a good thing.

The overall background is also the vital factor of our membership of the European Union, and I am inevitably going to cover some points about Europe. Membership of the EU is crucial for Britain and I think that the madness of leaving is dawning more and more on sensible people, even some of the more old-fashioned of our colleagues represented by an uncomfortably large group of rather right-wing Tory MPs in the other place. The latest House of Commons Foreign Affairs Select Committee report spells it out loud and clear, although it wisely steers clear of the immaturities implicit in hysterical referendumitis. I welcome the elegant but firm rap on the knuckles for inexperienced British Ministers set out in paragraphs 26, 27 and 28 of the committee’s conclusions and recommendations. I also welcome the bulk, but not all, of the evidence given to the committee by Business for New Europe, which sets out a solid enthusiasm for our continuing membership of the EU for practical reasons.

I declare an interest as a former member of the Stock Exchange and of a large institutional stockbroking firm in the City for many years, and other City interests. Those of us who are proud of the good side of the City of London and its immense contribution to Britain over the years, including assisting the general public in myriad ways with practical financial instruments, were heartened by the flattering words in January of the Swedish Minister for Finance, Anders Borg, who said that for Sweden,

“keeping Britain in the EU is a very high priority. We have a big banking sector and a lot of work goes through the City of London. If the UK leaves the EU it could create a lot of problems”.

A balance is also needed between excessive adulation of the City, which is wrong, and unfair criticism. I hope that my own references to this in the debate that I opened in Grand Committee on 22 April on the dangers of UK isolation in Europe, at col. GC 290, in the last but two paragraphs at the end of my speech, caught that balance. We also need to grasp the fact that the other member states have some hesitations on the bad or toxic side of City financial activities, which came to their monstrous conclusion in 2007-08 and onwards.

Indeed, I detect that some of the right-wing comics that masquerade as newspapers in this country are less keen to say that brilliantly talented spivs who are good at fund management speculation and excessive risk-taking using other people’s money here will go abroad if we deny them lavish and unjustified bonuses or force them—horror of horrors—actually to pay conventional UK income taxes. If they insist, say I, let them go abroad.

Coming back to the positive aspects of our financial services sector, we can indeed be proud of what has been achieved here over the years on a secular growth basis. As we know all too vividly, this country usually has a large and uncomfortable physical trade deficit with most other advanced countries in the world with the possible exception, depending on the latest figures, of the United States, which is also a rather inefficient and heavy importer. Just as Germany is immensely proud of its industry—particularly its motor vehicle industry, which is one of the wonders of the world—we admire our own financial services sector for what it achieves in a non-visible surplus for us in direct and indirect investments, insurance, shipping and, of course, banking and fund management forms.

When government is called on to “protect” a valuable sector, I trust it will always be in the sense of upholding the single market rather than seeking artificial propping-up exercises, which would not be justified. Happily, our present coalition Government have always upheld the principles of transparency, free and open markets—with a genuine single market—and robust competition. The Prime Minister has moved away, thankfully, from calls for what seemed to be special unilateral privileges, as in the bizarre antics of December 2011 in Brussels, to asserting rightly the equality of conditions philosophy. I think that will now persist.

At this stage, I would particularly welcome it if my noble friend the Minister could bring us up to date on government thinking on the eurozone’s proposed financial transactions tax and our most recent responses, since it seems to have stalled somewhat as a formal proposal among some inner core member states. Even if talks resumed soon, I doubt whether it could commence before 2015-16 at the earliest. I assume meanwhile that the City of London Corporation is maintaining its strong opposition, although many foreigners are puzzled when, after all, we have a pretty onerous stamp duty system on quoted investments and property purchases in this country.

However, we remain highly integrated with financial markets within other EU members. I believe we account for three-quarters of foreign exchange trading in Europe, some 85% of all hedge fund assets and well over two-thirds of all interest rate derivatives, despite the fallout from the world crisis in the previous decade—a crisis which, we need to remember, started in the USA, apart from the Northern Rock debacle of the previous year. Just as official circles in the UK quite rightly hammer home the primordial need for the single market to develop more deeply in every sphere so that, EU- wide, consumers of goods and services can benefit from equal conditions in the theoretically perfect market set-up, so the other member states are justified in insisting that Britain remains a good member of the club and accepts freely agreed EU-wide legislation for market conformity in all spheres. The general public interest surely demands this in commonsense terms.

The mid-May ECOFIN meeting in Brussels highlighted some of these imperatives for, as usual, a raft of new Commission objectives in draft legislation were discussed to gain some progress in complex fields. I have already mentioned the markets in financial instruments provision; my thanks again to the Minister for what he has achieved there. There is the latest text of the market abuse directive, the mortgage credit directive, directive IV on capital requirements and the legislation drawn up to deal with money laundering. The amended text of the savings tax agreement with third countries and the Council draft for the EU savings directive were also discussed briefly at that meeting. If my noble friend the Minister has time today to refer to some of these, I will be grateful. I will understand if he is unable to cover them all.

In other large areas, does my noble friend have time to refer to the Government’s responses to the need to return RBS and the other taxpayers’ emergency stake in Lloyds Bank Group to the private sector and to shareholders, how the other leading banks are faring in returning to giving adequate support to UK industry and commerce and, if he has time, what position the Government take on the Co-op Bank crisis, which is a sad development? Finally, if he can deal even briefly with official attitudes to the latest developments in the attempts by the LSE and other leading bourses in Europe to achieve synergy and modernisation, I would be most grateful.

Perhaps it would be reasonable at the current state of play to ponder the future in a wider sense. I believe that the impact and success of the British financial services industry will continue, both as a great national asset and as a solid contributor to the overall strength and cohesion of the Union’s single market. What is disturbing, however, is the way in which subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle elements are creeping into this overall scenario which, particularly at times of severe socio-economic austerity in many parts of the EU, are in danger of increasing irredentism and fissiparous pulls among traditionally friendly allies within the 28, weakening the single market philosophy. We need to acknowledge that the others really and profoundly want us to stay as members, but seemingly not at the price of conceding to us anything other than the normative and steady moderations of the Union’s acquis, which for them is constant reform, and most definitely not the old-fashioned notion of reform that has been expressed in some parts of the other place in recent months.

It is never a weakness in framing sensible policies to appraise what the others think of us. They were not impressed at us being the odd man out so often in recent times. They were contemptuous when we failed to join them in the eurozone when it first started, and of course we were slow to offer them real support when their crisis over a smallish number of weak member states began in 2008. That is now water under the bridge and it is time for us to work together. We are taking the lead, I hope, in pursuing the tax evasion problem, particularly with France, Germany, Italy and Spain, which will also oblige us to deal at long last with our many island tax havens from the old Empire.

Finally, I would just add a reminder. Professor Pauline Schnapper, the leader in British studies at the Sorbonne Nouvelle University, reminded us recently that the EU has actually been evolving in a rather British direction over the past 15 years, showing greater pragmatism and empiricism alongside enlargement. That should help us even more to shun isolationism in the coming years. As I believe the euro will remain and in the future will be an even stronger international currency, I hope that one day we will regain our nerve and even join the eurozone.

15:11

[Lord Flight]

My Lords, first, I declare my interests as set out in the register, but which amount to 43 years in the investment management industry. Although I want to talk specifically about the initiatives in this year’s Finance Bill, I should say that when I started my career, I remember someone older than me asking, “Why on earth are you coming into this? London is too big and it only services the UK economy. It has lost all its international business”. He could not have been more wrong. One of the things that I am proud of over my career has been to see London return to being the major financial capital of the world, earning somewhere between £60 billion and £70 billion a year in invisibles that help to pay for so many of those cheap Chinese imports. Although the City is certainly subject to criticism, to regulation, and even to a Government policy that led to the banking crisis, it is an incredibly valuable asset to this country. For those who say that it is too big, I would just point to Hong Kong where the financial services industry is a far larger proportion of the economy, but because it got its financial regulation and economic policy right, it has never been a major problem. Rather than contract the City, let us expand other areas and get its regulation correct.

I want to speak about the initiative in this year’s Finance Bill which will set up the UK investment management strategy, a Treasury paper published back in March. I greatly welcome this. It is there to try to get more foreign fund management businesses to come to this country. That might obviously benefit those who work for them, as well as the lawyers, accountants, regulators and even HMRC because they would provide another source of income. By the way, I think that the total fund management industry represents around 1% of GDP, some £12 billion per annum, so as a sub-section it is pretty significant.

Thirty years ago, when my noble friend Lord Lamont was the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, I tried to persuade him to remove taxation on funds, then unit trusts, and put it firmly on individual investors in order to stop Luxembourg taking masses of new business which could rightly have come to London. The Revenue would not accept the argument, and so Luxembourg emerged with its huge industry of today, but at the time it did not exist. At last HMRC has got the message that this is an industry worth having in this country.

There is a level of serious commitment within the Government’s measures. First, there is the commitment to abolish the stamp duty reserve tax, of which there has been criticism for many years. Secondly, there is a commitment to make sure that the tax status of non UK-domiciled funds will not be affected if they are obliged to appoint a UK AIFM. I look forward to working with TheCityUK and the new Financial Services Trade and Investment Board to come up with an agenda of what I would call constructive proposals which might be politically possible, and I am glad to see that the IMA is coming up with good initiatives aimed at creating greater cost transparency in terms of the amounts charged by various funds.

There are obviously two key factors. One is tax; the other is regulation. The tax regime needs to be attractive for funds. It also needs to be attractive for the staff who might work for them; it needs to be competitive. Regulation needs to be, first and above all, good; and, secondly, it must not be too expensive or over-bureaucratic. Otherwise people will want to go to other places.

On the tax front, I remember some 12 years ago when I was seeking to drum up support for the Conservative Party in the City, one of the major world banks said to me, “We are totally happy as long as income tax remains at 40%, as introduced by Prime Minister Blair, and, secondly, as long as the pension plan arrangements aren’t interfered with”. Well, sadly, both of those have been lost. They were then boasting to me about the numbers of staff they transferred from Paris and Frankfurt to London. Do not forget that individual tax matters as well as the tax on the operations themselves.

I know that the Government are concerned because probably the largest fund management group in London has recently started shipping staff and a lot of its new business off to Luxembourg. I have explored that and it is really not about the taxation of funds; it is about the taxation of individuals. In particular, it is about what I think was a very unwise and aggressive taxation of non-doms relating to their property ownership, which for many will involve a 7% per annum mansion tax. For funds and the fund management business, broadly the tax regime over here is fine; and as corporation tax comes down to 20% for fund managers it becomes an attractive tax regime.

Again there is some very interesting data here in the Government’s paper. The volume of funds managed has risen from £2.7 to £5 trillion in the past six years. Where this paper is slightly mistaken is that while it initially focuses on the volume of funds managed in the UK, which is what matters, it also focuses on the domicile of funds. In fact, managing the funds—irrespective of where they are domiciled—is where employment and revenues come. It is much more important to keep the UK an attractive place to manage funds that are not actually domiciled here. There is a slight error there.

The second mistake is that the paper suggests that the new AIFMD regime may be good for the UK as it will encourage funds to be domiciled here. I think it is serious bad news for the UK and will lead to a significant loss of business. It is very expensive and very hasslesome. Anyone who is managing funds which are not to be marketed to the EEA and EU are going to move elsewhere and, indeed, are starting to move elsewhere—predominantly to Singapore and Hong Kong.

I am no great liker of hedge funds and have never invested a penny in one, but there is a great misconception in Europe that hedge funds caused the financial crisis, whereas it was money being easy for too long, bad regulation and so forth. It was really the banks and not the fund management industry that led to the trouble. In terms of regulations, the FSA as it was had become unnecessarily hostile to the fund management industry. Many reputable businesses said to me that they did not want to raise their criticisms of certain regulatory initiatives because they were frightened of retribution. There was a breakdown in communication. However, in Luxembourg, again, they virtually embrace you with both arms and offer you all manner of inducement and attraction if you will come and bring your business to them. I am pleased that the Treasury is “in discussions” with the FCA on that territory.

London obviously has a huge amount to offer: lots of people with high skills, a wonderful place to live, wonderfully international and so forth. However, I think that there is one danger of undermining all these attractions by an increasing nightmare of regulation. It is not just an AIFMD; the threat of the transaction tax would be a disaster for London and the trickle-down effect means often that it would turn out to be at least 1%. I hope that the Government will go to extreme measures to stop it happening—although I am hopeful that Merkel wants to give it up once the election is over We will now have to put up with EMIR. The Government have done quite well on MiFID II but are still somewhat protectionist towards third country suppliers. We have ESMA wanting to take over regulation in this country. Candidly, I have never known a more exhausting time of masses of excess and useless regulation, particularly the AIFM report. No one will read it—it is so voluminous and completely unnecessary.

Contrary to my noble friend Lord Dykes’s extolling of the situation, the main threat to the UK fund-management industry is the regulation coming from the EU. I end by saying that it was a great mistake of the previous Government to surrender sovereignty on financial regulation to the EU. We are inevitably vulnerable because some 70% of all financial transactions for the entire EU are done in London. I do not particularly blame Paris and Germany for thinking that they would like to have a bit of the cake and to encourage measures which might lead to that. As someone in the industry, I see that as the biggest threat.

15:20

[Baroness Goudie]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, for arranging for this debate. Like the noble Lord, I say that it would be a great mistake for Great Britain to leave Europe. We should not consider this at all. I hope that, in the long term, it will not happen.

On the issue that Europe matters today, we have to move on from the disaster of 2008. We cannot look back at what it was; we can never go back so we have to move on. The key issue is that the prospects for the financial services industry are good. Last year’s Kay review on equality markets and the recent report of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards demonstrate that the UK is leading Europe in the debate on the direction of domestic and international financial reforms. Negative perceptions of the industry remain largely based around the lack of diversity, both in terms of gender and ethnicity, as well as remuneration, on which the Government have published a report of the Commons committee. No doubt we will debate the whole question of diversity, women on boards and equal pay in the next year. I do not need to go down that road today, but economies cannot prosper if half of the population is behind. Research from the World Economic Forum in 2012 said that women now represent 40% of the global market force, which is a little higher in this country, and that more than half of the world’s university students are women—again, it is higher in this country. For a functioning economy, its full potential of women’s skills and talents is very important—including the export and import of those who are educated here and who then go back home. The GDP they bring to those countries is vital for a stable world.

Coming back to this country, across the domestic and international activities, financial and professional services have contributed more than £200 billion to the UK economy since 2012. In aggregate terms, the contribution of the financial services industry represents some 15% of UK GDP. Exports made up a substantial share of the contribution, of up to 40%, of the financial services to the GDP, arising from the sector’s exports and those services provided to overseas clients. We should also be aware that when people require something we sell, like law and education, our financial services are very much sought-after in the Middle East and other countries. That is one of our soft powers that we should be looking to.

The trade surpluses of the financial and professional service sectors are roughly the same as the combined services of all other net industries in the UK. Some of our specific contributions are that our insurance business is the best and largest in Europe. We have 251 or more different banks working in the UK, including those based here. The UK has the second-largest pensions industry in the world, with total investments of £1.9 trillion. That is a huge sum of money; it is inconceivable, but it is vital to Britain. In 2012, the UK private equity and venture capital sectors managed assets of £200 billion.

UK private equity funds invested in more than 800 companies. People talk about hedge funds and different instruments of finance, but they do not realise that without them and that investment, we would not have the companies we have, because no longer do the real banks want to invest. The real problem we are having is for SMEs, 40% of which are now run by women, employing men and women, which are having great difficulties. Although the banks have promised to lend to them, they have not been able to get funding. That is not because they do not have order books or money coming in, it is because they just need that extra couple of hundred thousand pounds to tide them over for a year, but there is no one to talk to, because you do not have banks any more. Metro Bank has started up locally in the high street, but we do not have our usual banks to go to.

I know that this is old-fashioned, but some people need to talk to someone, not a call centre but somebody to talk to. Standard Chartered, for example, which is working in Asia, has people in middle management there to meet you and to offer to look after you. It is the same in Hong Kong and Singapore: if you want to go to the bank, there is someone to meet you who wants to talk to you. Whatever deal we finally do with the Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds—we do not know what will happen with one or two others yet; I hope nothing—if they will not open places, which cost money, there should be the availability to talk to somebody, because talking to a call centre or an individual who does not know you or your industry and has never been to your factory is not the same. That is vital to today’s economy. Those of us who live in London or Scotland know that the back-office industry there is huge, but in the middle of the country, there is nothing. There are no banks, there is nowhere for people to go to talk to someone. We must encourage building societies and those other banks to open up, even if they are opening up in a mall, so that there is a place where people can make an appointment to see someone. They do not have to be there permanently, but people need to be able to make an appointment to come from wherever they are working.

For our economy to function, we need to use the full potential of women’s skills—coming back to SMEs—and they need someone to go to talk to. We do not want them going to get the money, not from payday loans, but from other companies which will lend money to SMEs at high interest rates. Those companies are too big to take microfinance. We know that microfinance, because it loans the money from the banks, is charging higher interest.

I hope that the Government will consider those ideas and what we have managed to tackle together since 2008, and move forward. We must move forward to take our place in the world, and enable the potential of people in university and in school and ensure that they are not left on the heap.

15:28

[Lord Bilimoria]

My Lords, in 2011, the financial and insurance services sector contributed more than £125 billion to the GVA of the UK economy. That is more than 9% of our total GVA. London itself accounted for 46% of the total GVA of the finance and insurance sector in 2009. The contribution to jobs approaches 4%. The other point is that trade in financial services contributed huge amount to the trade surplus that the UK has in services. The banking sector alone contributed £21 billion to UK tax receipts in corporation tax, income tax and national insurance. The OBR has shown that in 2007-08, the effective tax burden from corporate and income tax as a share of the GVA was the highest for the financial intermediaries. That is partly because of the relatively high profits that the sector makes compared to its contribution to GVA. Again, according to the OBR, in 2010-11 the financial sector accounted for around 7% of government receipts once the bank payroll tax and bank levy were included.

It is a huge sector. As the noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, said, the financial services sector accounts for 9.6% of GDP, but if you add the professional services—a further 4.9%—it makes up almost 15%. Relative to other countries, the financial services sector is very important for Britain. It is much higher than in the United States, where it is just over 7% of the economy, and it is more than double a percentage of our GDP compared with countries such as Japan, France and Germany.

Of course, we then come on to the question of whether we have a balanced economy. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, for initiating this really important debate at this time. The noble Lord, Lord Flight, mentioned the importance of the City of London. The joke is that the Lord Mayor of London—and the City—makes the money and the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, spends the money. I do not think that this bizarre situation exists anywhere else in the world, where you have power and finance in a square mile of a huge city. Do we have the balance right? Do we have the relationship right? Does it need to change? I am not suggesting for one moment that it needs to, but I would be very interested in the Government’s opinion on this very important relationship.

The noble Lord, Lord Dykes, spoke about the European Union. One of the UK’s great advantages, particularly when it comes to financial services, is that we are not only at the top table of the European Union but we are seen by countries such as India as a gateway to Europe. As a founding chairman of the UK-India Business Council, I know how important this is for Indian companies. It is crucial that we stay at the top table of Europe, although I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, that any talk of a tax on financial transactions would be a disaster. We need to keep the balance right and thank God we do not belong to the euro.

Another advantage that London has is AIM. The Alternative Investment Market started in 1995 and is coming up to its 20th anniversary. It is a huge success but to this day, AIM shares are not allowed to be included in ISAs. I declare my interest as the senior independent director of the Booker Group. When I joined the board nearly six years ago we were an AIM company. We then graduated to the main list and are now a FTSE-250 company. I find the situation so difficult to understand. I believe the Chancellor said in the Autumn Statement that this would be looked into and that consultations would start in 2013. They still have not started and AIM shares still cannot be included in ISAs. So we are not really encouraging investment in these shares as much as we could. AIM is a crucial market in encouraging entrepreneurship and growth companies, not just for the UK but I know how attractive an AIM listing is even to companies from India. Perhaps the Minister could talk about the importance of AIM, in particular AIM in ISAs.

When I used to promote Britain when doing business with India, I would always speak with pride of our light-touch regulation and of what Margaret Thatcher did in the 1980s in opening up Britain and the City of London with the big bang, and how this gentlemen’s club and closed shop opened up into being a meritocracy, and the world’s greatest financial institutions flocked to London, and London has flourished. But later, after the financial crisis, my colleagues abroad would say, “Ah, what happened to your light-touch regulation?”. I would speak with pride about the independence of the Monetary Policy Committee, one of the best things that Gordon Brown did when he was Chancellor.

However, in 2007, when this country was hit by the subprime crisis that became the credit crunch, that became the financial crisis, that became the great recession, that turned into the sovereign debt crisis, that turned into the eurozone crisis, we realised the mistakes that we had made. The Treasury, Bank of England and the FSA, which in all the good times leading up to this crisis were a happy merry-go-round, suddenly turned into this great blame-go-round. I remember taking part in the debates on the Bill to nationalise Northern Rock in early 2008. Northern Rock went bust in September 2007 and was nationalised within six months; it cost £26 billion to bail out a company—the biggest bailout of any one company in the history of the world. We are now talking about RBS and Lloyds. It has now taken six years to come up with our new financial supervision regulations which will be much more robust. Perhaps the Minister could talk about that.

We get into problems and are attacked because of our tax system and companies not paying enough tax. Well, the GAAR—the anti-abuse regulations—have been brought in, but will not stop the Starbucks and Googles from what they are doing. This brings me to the point of perception and reality. I chaired a meeting of the Industry and Parliament Trust. Sadly, the public’s trust in business is 16%, and in government it is 17%. Shockingly, in a poll after the Olympics which asked, “Are you proud of Britain?”, the vast majority of the public were. When asked, “Are you proud of British business?”, only 4% were.

Earlier this week, I spoke at Oxford University for the reputation executive leadership programme at the Centre for Corporate Reputation in the Saïd Business School. It is clear there that the finance sector, and bankers in particular, have a terrible reputation at the moment. There is a lack of trust. On brands, which I spoke about, the financial sector, London and the City are a brand. What is a brand? I know about brands from my own business, Cobra Beer. A brand is what a brand does. The Harvard Business Review recently published a survey of 25,000 companies over 40 years. It identified the companies that were successful over a sustained period and called them miracle makers. They followed three principles: first, they followed “better before price”; secondly, “revenue before costs”; and thirdly, only those first two principles mattered. “Better before price” is all about quality. The City has fantastic quality, our financial sector has amazing quality and our professional services have the best of the best in the world.

“Revenue before costs” is about whether we are growing enough. Are the Government committed to growing the financial sector? I hope that with the arrival of the new Governor of the Bank of England—a Canadian, of which I am proud; it shows our openness as a country and an economy—not only will we target inflation but GDP growth. Will the Minister confirm that? It would promote growth in our financial sector.

I conclude that, while we may not have an empire any more, one of the legacies of the biggest empire that the world has ever known is the City of London and our great financial sector. It is one of the jewels in the Crown of our great country.

15:37

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, it may well be one of the jewels in the Crown, but it is somewhat tarnished. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, on raising this issue at this time, which is of the most profound significance for the nation—wider, I think, than the agenda that he addressed. I agree with him about aspects of looking at the financial transaction tax. I have great reservations about that being proposed in Europe. If there is a possibility of such a tax, endorsed by the Americans, which would help to ensure that the finance capital, the City of London, and other centres across the world repaid the colossal debt they owe to wider society as a result of their mismanagement of the financial sector, that is only right and proper.

It is inconceivable that we return to the age of light regulation. Light regulation brought this country to its knees. We have more than 2 million people unemployed; we have 1 million young people unable to obtain jobs. We have a colossal problem with the cutbacks in public services, which are felt as a massive cost for all but particularly those who are very dependent on them for benefits and support. What is more, what does it amount to that each and every man, woman and child in this country has paid out £19,000 to the financial sector to create the bailouts to get out of the colossal mess that we are in?

Of course, I have no doubt that comments will be made about “the Government of light regulation”. The Conservative Party points the finger and says that Labour was in power at the time, as indeed we were, and was guilty of not having taken sufficient note of the impending crisis, but the Conservative Party was carrying down exactly the norms of light regulation that have been expressed today. What the country is demanding, however, is answerability. Of course we must create a base on which the financial services flourish, but it is demanding that they flourish within a framework where we never again see a crisis like the one we have had these past four years. Why not? Because we may well be in the greatest depression for a century and it may take us more than a decade to recover from it.

Already, current living standards are considerably below what they were in 2007. That is the price which the nation is paying and it ill behoves those who argue that the financial services need to be respected—of course they do. How could you do anything else with a sector of the economy which, as noble Lords have identified, amounts to such importance in it? The noble Lords, Lord Bilimoria, Lord Dykes and Lord Flight, all identified the importance of the City to the economy. Nobody is underestimating how significant that is, because we all know the figures.

However, the Prime Minister said that we must rebalance the economy. What does he mean by that? He must, at the very least, mean two things: first, that overdependence on the financial services industry makes the economy vulnerable, as it certainly did in 2007; secondly, that the vast majority of employment in the financial sector is within 20 miles of this Building. It is in London or the south-eastern counties, and if you talk about rebalancing the economy you have to look at areas where people are grossly underemployed at present and where capital is at low levels, such as the north of England, the north-west and elsewhere. A balanced economy will require those issues to be addressed. That is why it is necessary for the Government to spell out the position that they are going to adopt. They will have that opportunity on numerous imminent occasions.

It is important that the Government address themselves to the fundamental problems of our economy at present. I give them all credit for the way in which they have addressed the banking issue. I am not enamoured of the stance on banking but I congratulate the Government on recognising that we had to have banking legislation to clear up the mess of the past. Where I and my party have our reservations, which will be voiced as we consider the banking Bill, is that the question of sanctions seems to be rather marginal. For instance, the Government do not seem to think that there is much more to do than the Vickers fencing-off of the position of the banks, rather than the direct separation that may be necessary. After all, we have one instance before us at present in the Royal Bank of Scotland. What are the Government going to do about that? Should they not, at the very least, consider whether there should be a separation between the retail and investment arms of RBS as a solution to that position? Would that not also indicate that the legislation ought to consider that dimension?

I come briefly to the question of the financial transaction tax, which the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, raised. I agreed with his sentiments that there is much merit in it. The merit in it is quite straightforward: it potentially raises vastly more than stamp duty raises at present. It is also necessary that the financial services sector meets the obligations in terms of proper payment, particularly against a background where the country is scandalised that at the peak of the crisis, absolutely unjustifiable bonuses were being paid out to leading figures, and where not just incompetence but the depth to which finance had descended in terms of morality was being revealed. You cannot look at the LIBOR issue and the immorality of the terrible risk-taking with other people’s money without recognising the old adage of, “My word is my bond”. The morality of the City needs to be restored because what has been going on is untenable.

The financial transaction tax is an important concept. I recognise that Britain certainly could not go forward with it if the United States remained hostile to the position. We could not have New York not being a part of it. However, if the American Administration began to see the merits of the tax, and the European countries—11 at the moment and more to be added to the list—lend their support to the concept, it would be appalling if the British Government did not recognise those merits as well. That is not to endorse what is before the Government at present, and I acknowledge entirely their resistance to what is now on the table. However, I would argue that it is the concept that ought to be worked on, thought through and improved.

The Committee will be aware of the fact that I am grateful for this opportunity. It has come a little prematurely because I had expected it to be in response to a Statement in the House, which unfortunately we did not get yesterday. After all, the Commission on Banking Standards has pointed to a significant way forward. We are all desperately eager to get the Government’s definitive response to the crucial issues raised by the commission. We did not have a chance to consider a Statement yesterday, and I do not think that we will get to the banking Bill in real terms for some time. I am therefore grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, for giving us a chance at least to make some contribution today.

15:46

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Deighton)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Dykes for giving us an opportunity to discuss this important question. I think that some very interesting issues were raised. I am not sure that there is much disagreement over principle; on practice and implementation, there may be some more. Everyone gave their own measure of how important the financial services sector is to the UK economy, and the obvious implication of that is that we need to nourish and protect it, and to use it as an engine for our future growth; I think that everybody accepts that. My own numbers demonstrate that the financial services sector represents 10% of our gross domestic product, 12% of our tax revenue and half of our trade surplus, and employs over 1 million people—two-thirds of whom are outside London. It was very helpful to hear reference being made to the broader industries involved, such as the pensions industry. I was at a meeting recently with the Indian finance Minister, who asked us to help train India’s whole actuaries sector, such is the respect with which our pensions industry is regarded.

I am also very persuaded by the soft power arguments in support of our law and education expertise. Every time I travel with the aim of trying to bring money into the UK or help UK businesses overseas, there is a British law firm that is regarded as the leading light in virtually every territory. It is an extraordinarily good example of soft power. It is a similar case with our education system. The countries in which we are most effective are those where the current ruling elite were educated in the United Kingdom. What worries me is that when I look at the next generation, a smaller proportion have been educated here. However, it is a very powerful base from which to develop relationships that help us to win business.

As well as being a major employer, the role of the banking sector in particular as a provider of credit and financial services to businesses and consumers is critical. What we are really talking about in most of this discussion is how we can build a safe and secure system, repair the damage that was caused during the crisis, and put it on a sound footing in order to deal with all the issues.

I was slightly worried that the tone of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, meant that he was looking for a fight around regulation. I am not a fan of light regulation like my noble friend Lord Flight. I am a fan of very good regulation and this Government have been the leader in devising the architecture and the systems that are now being put in place to make this system better. We are absolutely in agreement. It is good regulation we want, not lots of bureaucracy, and that is a critical distinction to make. We all accept that the financial crisis was in part caused—certainly exacerbated—by certain practices within the banks and we have to get that corrected to ensure that it does not happen again and we do not leave taxpayers with the bill.

This is probably a good time to follow up on what my right honourable friend the Chancellor talked about in the Mansion House speech last night: the plan going forward for RBS and Lloyds in particular. There are three key objectives in the plan to restore them to good health: first, that they can play a strong role in their support of the economy; secondly, that any transactions that result in the sale of shares represent excellent value for money for the taxpayer; and, thirdly, that we will do whatever we can in restructuring and working with the banks to return them to private ownership. As the Chancellor announced, Lloyds is a lot closer so it is being prepared for a sale of shares to institutions; RBS is still some time away. With regard to the noble Lord’s suggestions, one of the restructuring options being looked at is the so-called good bank/bad bank split, which is pretty consistent with dividing it into a retail and wholesale bank. Certainly something that will be evaluated quite carefully is whether that is the better structural option.

My noble friend Lord Dykes referred to the Co-operative Bank and the surprising speed with which that problem was revealed. The bank is working very well with the regulators to ensure that its capital position is being addressed. It is being addressed without recourse to the public purse, which is a good step forward in terms of how these resolution processes take place. However, the Government continue to support mutual structures, building societies, et cetera, so that really is an important part of competition in the banking sector.

We have had quite a discussion about rebalancing, which is a very popular word that is applied to almost every aspect of our lives these days. In terms of making the banking sector less crucial to the UK economy, I am much more interested in growing other industries than in shrinking the banking sector just for the sake of it. It would be sensible to shrink it if it was too engaged in risky businesses, but I do not think our objective should be simply to reduce the scale of the banking business. The focus needs to be on ensuring that we have a healthy business. As was pointed out, Hong Kong has a bigger relative financial sector than we do. The focus needs to be on our broader economic strategy to help support other businesses, particularly those that can bring jobs and growth to the economy outside the south-east of England, where the financial services jobs are predominantly based.

One of the proactive things that we are trying to do as a Government to ensure that the financial services sector is protected is to ensure that the way in which we regulate and tax the market and all the infrastructure services we provide to the City of London continue to allow it to be the most effective, successful, dynamic financial sector in the world. That should be our objective. That is how we bring business in. That is why banks and other institutions want to come here. We should also support very clearly our own institutions as they develop their interests overseas; we have talked about insurance companies, for example, and how effective and successful they can be overseas. We have to get our financial regulation right. Finally, we have to incentivise banks to lend to the real economy, and other markets and forms of disintermediation have to work so that we can get key parts of the economy financed. I take on board the noble Lord’s comments about AIM. I accept that ISAs cannot be included for the time being. We will follow up with noble Lords when those proposals become clearer later in the year.

I note that the Government announced the creation of the Financial Services Trade and Investment Board—really as a promotion body to help push the City forward. Historically, we have generally left the City to its own devices because we thought it was so successful, but this is a body with some very good people from the Government involved to work through what we can do to support the industry and to make it successful around the world. My experience of working quite intensively with both the lord mayor and the mayor has been that this works quite well in tandem. We also, of course, have the Treasury as a third strand of the Government promoting the City. It had been suggested to me in the past that we should share the role by having both a day mayor and a night mayor—noble Lords can choose which one they would like to put in which category.

The board is up and running and it is doing very well. The kinds of things that are on its agenda are, for example, helping us to be the leading centre for the internationalisation of the renminbi and, talking of India, to help us to be well positioned as the rupee is eventually internationalised so that we can capture that business. My noble friend Lord Flight gave a very eloquent exposition of the UK investment management strategy, demonstrating that, in general, it is a good thing. We need, however, to be careful about how it is regulated—again, we are back to good regulation. The abolition of stamp duty reserve tax, which was a big step forward, was really aimed at making our industry the best one in the world. As an example of what followed, we have seen Santander choosing London as the base for its world-wide asset management business, which is a great step forward. In March, we also established an Islamic task force to try to establish the UK as the preferred choice for the Muslim world to invest in and do business with. These are the kind of new initiatives.

We have talked a lot about the EU and the interesting challenge around being the major financial centre in Europe but not a euro country, and some of the issues and challenges which that throws up. The general sense I got from this debate—which I certainly share—is that noble Lords do not read very much in the papers about when the UK has pushed legislation so that it actually gets the right outcome, not just for this country’s interests but in the market’s interest—and MiFID was a wonderful example of that. Of course, the EU-US free trade agreement should be another example; financial services will be a very big part of that.

We talked a little bit about tax. I agree that the GAAR—the anti-avoidance measure—may be limited. As we saw in Northern Ireland, however, with the G8 meeting, the only real way to address these tax issues is through international collaboration. I am delighted that our Government are taking a lead on tax and transparency and really setting the pace to help to improve those things. We have talked enough about Vickers and what is coming there.

On the comments on diversity, I could not agree more that there would be nothing healthier for some of these financial institutions than to have a broader and more diverse group of people working in them, particularly at the senior level. My own example is that I joined a US investment bank when I left university because I did not feel comfortable in a merchant bank because I had not been to public school. I can only imagine how a woman feels on the trading floor of a US investment bank, because it is a distinct male environment. It would benefit from that diversity. I am an absolute supporter of that. All my experience in professional life has demonstrated the enormous power that comes from that diversity.

I should address the financial transaction tax. The noble Lord is absolutely right. If applied equally around the world, it is certainly a runner, but the way that it is structured now it just will not work. I think that our case is being very effective in persuading countries who were on the fence to see that perhaps it may not be in the market’s interest.

In closing, we have heard how important the sector is, how we are reforming it, how we are making sure that it addresses the problems of the real economy, but also what an important sector it is for the future of this country. I appreciate the comments of noble Lords in what was a very useful and interesting debate.

First World War: Commemorations

Thursday 20th June 2013 Grand Committee

Question for Short Debate

16:02

Asked by

[Baroness Young of Hornsey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that the contribution of people from Africa, Asia and the Caribbean to British efforts in the First World War is recognised in the forthcoming commemorations.

[Baroness Young of Hornsey]

With the announcement of a significant programme of activities and commemorative events next year, more than £50 million of government funding being made available—and many arguments about the scale, nature and purpose of marking this anniversary—historians, other scholars, politicians, culture commentators and members of the general public have all joined the fray, making for a fascinating and lively debate.

Of course, commemorative events are nearly always contested and throw up all sorts of unexpected and, indeed, unintended consequences. In 2007, many of us were involved in commemorating the abolition of the slave trade on British ships and there was certainly plenty of controversy there. But reasoned, vigorous discussion is a healthy sign and I welcome the public debate that continues to develop about how we mark—or not—the triumphs and tragedies represented by and flowing from World War I.

In 2007, one of the key issues to arise was how the stereotyping to which many of us are subjected today springs from assumptions and misrepresentations embedded in British history centuries ago: we have been defined by stifling categories, with our histories in this country and elsewhere all but ignored.

In the 1980s, when I first conducted sessions with school students on historical figures of African descent from Roman times through to the Second World War, a young boy of Caribbean ancestry told me that we were making it up. If what we said was true, he argued, then why were there not books and television programmes on the subject? I am pleased to say that over the past 40 years, certainly in terms of scholarly works, there has emerged an ever-growing body of books and learned essays that continue to add to the sum of our knowledge about our presence and agency in British history. The Black and Asian Studies Association has been one of the key organisations in this regard, with innovative research and website materials by the Runnymede Trust most welcome too.

We should bear in mind that it was only as recently as 2002 that the tremendous effort of colonial troops from African, Asian and Caribbean countries was finally officially recognised with the creation of the memorials on Hyde Park Corner. I am delighted to take this opportunity to salute the diligence of my noble friends Lady Flather and Lord Bilimoria for their unstinting hard work on that project, as well as the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, and the noble Baroness, Lady Howells of St Davids, for contributing to debates and Questions and thus making sure that our place in history is not forgotten.

Although we have moved on from the 1980s, there is still so much ignorance. I have noticed recently how well educated, intellectually curious people react when I speak about the subject of our debate today. They are amazed and often want to know more, but even if they do not intend to follow up the matter, they usually say something like, “Why were we not taught about this at school?”. If we look for a moment at the scale, we must wonder why so little of this history is known. Some 1.5 million volunteers came forward from India and were in action on the Western Front within a month of the start of the war. India’s contribution was not confined to the army or to combat. The Royal Indian Marine and the Indian merchant services had equally crucial roles. From the African countries of Nigeria, Gambia, South Africa, Sierra Leone, Uganda, Kenya and what were then Rhodesia, Nyasaland and the Gold Coast came the 55,000 men who served in combat and the many hundreds of thousands more who served as carriers and auxiliary troops.

From the Caribbean islands came vocal and financial support for Britain’s war effort. Ambulances, maintenance costs and approximately £2 million—£60 million in today’s money—were given to the British Government. More than 15,500 men of the British West Indies Regiment served with the Allied Forces. We should remember that it is not just in terms of military and support services that sacrifices were made. Food and other forms of production were disrupted in those countries and the safety and security of their populations were jeopardised.

Thanks to their commitment to education in the broadest sense, museums, other cultural organisations and the voluntary sector are expert at examining these less well known histories through a variety of analytical prisms. For example, the Imperial War Museum is conducting a research project funded by the Arts & Humanities Research Council entitled “Whose Remembrance?”, which will investigate how local communities are addressing the colonial experience during the two world wars.

As a commissioner with English Heritage, I am pleased to say that English Heritage has grant-aided the repair of the grade 2 listed Muslim Burial Ground at Woking, where Indian troops who died in the Indian Military Hospital at the Brighton Pavilion were laid to rest. This complements the grade 2 listed Chattri memorial in Brighton, erected where Hindu and Sikh soldiers who died in the war hospital there were cremated. A further designated memorial to Indian troops is at Barton on Sea in the New Forest, where a grade 2 listed obelisk commemorates a convalescent depot for Indian troops. English Heritage has also funded investigative work on the SS “Mendi”, the troopship carrying more than 800 members of the South African Native Labour Corps that sank off the Isle of Wight in 1917 with the loss of more than 600 lives. A meeting of interested parties has recently been convened to discuss ways in which the “Mendi” dead might be remembered and the site appropriately managed. Research is also ongoing at Orford Ness in Suffolk regarding the sea defences constructed there by a Chinese labour battalion; again, it is worth noting that most of the 140,000 men who came from China to work for the French and British actually did so on the Western Front.

Now here is the difficult part: there are plenty of challenges as well as opportunities. Simply pointing out how heroic the combatants from what were then British colonies were is not, on its own, enough. To gloss over the racism and discrimination that manifested itself in a variety of ways, for example in the division of labour and the allocation of resources for fighting, would be to hide the truth. Although racism still permeates our society and there is still much work to do on this issue, to say that nothing has changed would equally be to deny reality. Relevant here is that the Armed Forces have been striving for many years to demonstrate in practical terms their positive approach to equality of opportunity and diversity in their institutions.

I believe that most, if not all, noble Lords present here today understand the need to ensure that our citizens, particularly the younger ones, from every cultural and ethnic background have a firm grasp of the complex ways in which our heritage and histories are interwoven. A sense of belonging must be predicated on the keen sense of how we and our ancestors have all contributed to the making of contemporary Britain.

I have noted that a number of government responses to questions about the commemorations have emphasised the educational dimension. There are aspects of the programme that suggest some exciting opportunities to engage young people with the human stories behind the historical headlines, which I welcome. There are several references to activities in partnership with a range of Commonwealth countries and the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, which I again welcome. However, while the concept of the Commonwealth may make sense to us here, that is not necessarily the case for many young people. I thank the Minister for our helpful conversation earlier this week. Will he tell us how the Government intend to ensure that the material that they will be generating resonates in a profound way, encouraging analysis, critique and, yes, perhaps some uncomfortable conversations with young people—especially, but not exclusively, those of African, Asian and Caribbean descent? Of course, the most obvious way of effecting this would be in some way to recognise this material in the national curriculum.

We are not talking here about what some insist on calling “political correctness”, a term which is particularly unhelpful in this context but which was used recently to justify the removal of Mary Seacole from the national curriculum. After a petition signed by more than 35,000 people, she was restored to her rightful place. I hope that sequence of events was a clear demonstration of the importance of this issue of the recognition of the role in British history played by African, Asian and Caribbean people.

Finally, one Indian soldier, doubting that he would survive the conflict, consoled himself in his writing with the thought that his name would be,

“written in letters of gold and inscribed in the list of the brave”.

I hope that, whether that man survived or not, at least symbolically we will acknowledge him and all those women and men from across the world who played their part in that most difficult, desperate and often tragic theatre of war.

16:11

[Lord Desai]

My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Young, for proposing this topic for us to discuss. I agree with her that every such commemoration raises a lot of controversy, but it also exposes a lot of ignorance at the same time. Someone, perhaps to take a radical stance, has called it a “European civil war”. That may sound like brave talk, but it was not just a European civil war. A lot of the rest of the world was fighting on one side or the other in the war.

We need to be reminded of the history, at the top as well as the bottom, of how the war was fought. One of the most unique aspects—certainly it was not repeated in the Second World War—was the formation of the Imperial War Cabinet. The fact that it was formed, including people such as Jan Smuts from South Africa and Satyendra Sinha—who later became Lord Sinha of Raipur, the only hereditary Peer of Asian origin—representing various parts of the empire and deciding about the war, is not very well known. We ought to be able to commemorate that as a constitutional innovation as well as an historical event.

It is true that this practice was not followed in the Second World War. Despite that, the empire as it then was—or the Commonwealth—contributed to the Second World War. As the noble Baroness said, on the Indian side perhaps up to 2 million people participated in the war. As noble Lords know, throughout the history of the British Empire in India, the Indian army was paid for by the Indian taxpayer; it was never paid for by the British taxpayer. In the First World War, not only was all the additional recruitment paid for by the Indian taxpayer, India alone raised £2 billion—I think. I will check; I have written it in my own book, The Rediscovery of India, so I can check that. I do not know whether India was ever repaid, but we will pass over that.

One really ought to recognise that when Britain was fighting the First World War, and indeed the Second World War, there was a tremendous contribution from the rest of the empire in terms of soldiers and resources. India was an especially big supplier of raw materials and resources for fighting the war, and that contribution was vital to that effort. I am really pressing for recognition of the efforts of the top as well as at the bottom, because one ought not to forget that the institution of the Imperial War Cabinet was a remarkable constitutional innovation and we ought to commemorate that.

That said, although the celebrations will not go on to what happened after the war, the First World War had a profound influence on the British Empire. The movements for national liberation got a great fillip from the soldiers who had come to Europe and fought the war. When the soldiers saw that their masters were just about as good as they were in fighting, and not a superior race, they realised that humanity is much more alike than not. That message was carried much more thoroughly by the war into the minds of ordinary soldiers who had come from agriculture or other industries. We ought to recognise that that was in some sense a creative contribution from what was a destructive war.

16:16

[The Lord Bishop of London]

My Lords, I, too, am very grateful for this initiative on the part of the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, because she has drawn attention to a really vital theme of the commemorations next year. It is particularly good that in the plans already announced by the Government, the Commonwealth element is very pronounced. The commemorations will begin just after the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow, and there is a firm emphasis there. I was with the Gurkha association just over a week ago and I was forcefully reminded of the fact, which has already been stated, that there was a huge contribution of people from the Indian subcontinent both at the top and right the way through the war effort. It was very large indeed.

The theme plays in very different ways in different places. The First World War was a vital element of nation-building in some parts of what is now the Commonwealth. In other places, it was an episode of colonial oppression; we had some very helpful lines from the noble Baroness, Lady Young, on that. I have had the privilege of conducting a service at the Memorial Gates, which she has already mentioned, every year for the past 10 years. The establishment of those gates is, as the noble Baroness said, down to the initiative of my noble friend Lord Bilimoria and, especially, the noble Baroness, Lady Flather. I am very sorry that she is not here to make a contribution because it has been an extraordinary experience, year after year, to be reminded of the huge contribution made by people from the Caribbean, especially, and from Africa as well as India. The annual observances at the Memorial Gates are on Commonwealth Day itself, somewhat before the August celebrations or commemorations. Can the Minister say whether there are any plans to use that location in August for acts of remembrance?

It is absolutely clear that, in contemporary Britain, we are now in the process of developing a truthful narrative that weaves in the contribution of many different communities to the history and flourishing of this country. This is a huge opportunity because, of course, so often we try to involve the young in the values and ethos of our society by mentioning the great universals such as tolerance, courage and respect, and all those things that we absolutely believe in. But unless they are embedded in convincing narratives and in communities, they do not have the power to transform lives. It is in that context that the remembrances and commemorations of next year will be very important as we develop the narratives and identify and celebrate the communities that play such an important part in the evolving story.

Churchill’s Britain no longer exists. There is an evolving story of these islands, and that will be an important part of developing that narrative. I declare an interest as a patron of Remember WWI, a consortium of community organisations seeking ways of stimulating grass-roots participation in the centenary. We cannot change the past, but it is a serious responsibility how we choose to remember it, because that remembering is itself extraordinarily creative and has an impact on the present. The theme of World War I is so large and the suffering involved so great that, as well as the proper emphasis of the noble Lord, Lord Desai, on life at the top, it is important to balance the great events with getting behind the columns of what Siegfried Sassoon memorably called “these intolerably nameless names” on thousands of war memorials. All sorts of resources are being developed to rescue those names from anonymity. We ought to look at that in relation to Commonwealth memorials as well. The faith communities internationally—because these are all international connections—are well placed to contribute to such an initiative.

In conclusion—I imagine that there is total unanimity among your Lordships on this—I hope that at no point in the commemorations will we seek to obscure the present urgent need to strengthen our links in a very new world with those who were fighting on the other side. It would be appalling if this was an occasion of ramping up any kind of animosity against, for example, Germany. In London, we have a special link with Berlin, and I have accepted an invitation to be there for some of the days in August 2014, as one tiny way to try to ensure that the commemoration does not turn in that adverse direction.

16:22

[Baroness Howells of St Davids]

My Lords, I am delighted to take part in this debate, which was introduced so eloquently by the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey. I will concentrate on the Caribbean and introduce the subject of World War II. One cannot overstate the enthusiasm and willingness of individuals from across the Caribbean to play a key role in Britain’s two world wars. To them, Britain was their mother country; to them, it was part of their heritage. Their collective loyalty to Britain manifested itself in many, many ways. Thousands risked their lives in service, some so anxious to serve that they lied about their age, often undertaking the most demanding and dangerous jobs against the elements of a climate truly alien to them. This loyalty was unrelenting.

Donations, which came despite communities’ own severe hardships, included aeroplanes and ambulances. Villages across the islands took down the gates and railings that protected their homes and contributed them to what was then known as the war effort. Women’s groups and schoolchildren knitted caps, gloves and scarves to keep the service men and women warm. To date, the sacrifices of those men and women have never truly been recognised—not with any tangible acknowledgement of their contribution. They are not even allowed to march as a group to the Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday, something for which they have been fighting for a very long time.

History has shown us how these people were treated with shameful hostility. It is not within the capacity of this debate to fully appreciate the extent of the racism they encountered. I am reminded of the front page of the People. It showed a black man, calypsonian, with a blonde on one arm and a brunette on the other, with a caption reading, “Would you like your daughter to marry one of these?”—an insult to those who risked their lives and are still risking their lives for Britain. We are talking about those who gave everything to protect the values that too often we take for granted, that we share as an intrinsic part of this country’s heritage. Today’s Question is important because when the UN declared 2011 the International Year for People of African Descent, the Minister’s response to my Oral Question showed that Britain was not prepared to make any effort to recognise their contribution. His answer said absolutely nothing.

During the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee celebrations, the Government completely ignored Caribbean nurses, the 16 to 20 year-olds who came to serve in the National Health Service. They were the pillars of the NHS. It was left to a voluntary organisation to make representations to Buckingham Palace directly. Her Majesty willingly gave her consent and medals have been struck for the best of the bunch. I declare an interest as a patron of that organisation.

Finally, I encourage people to take their children to the Museum of London in Canary Wharf. It tells the story of the marvellous contribution that was made. Some of your Lordships will remember that Mr Peel was responsible for setting up the police force. However, the Thames River Police was the first force, which was set up in the docks on the backs of the Caribbean enslaved. When the ships came in, the cargos were looted by the people of the East End. The magistrates set up the police force, and that is the foundation of today’s police force in England.

I look forward to the Minister’s response giving me some hope that the injustices suffered will be rectified by including those who are still alive and still hurting in the celebrations. I am sure that everyone here would like to participate in the plan.

16:27

[Lord Taylor of Warwick]

My Lords, I add my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, for securing this timely debate. My grandfather was one of the 15,601 men and women of the British West Indies Regiment who served with the Allied Forces in the First World War. He was a Jamaican; indeed, Jamaica contributed two-thirds of those West Indian volunteers. Others came from Trinidad and Tobago, Barbados, the Bahamas, British Honduras, Grenada, Guyana, the Leeward Islands, St Lucia and St Vincent. More than 1,200 of those Caribbean servicemen were killed or died, while more than 2,500 were wounded. Eighty-one medals were won for bravery and 49 men were mentioned in dispatches. My grandfather said very little about his First World War experiences, describing them only as “horrific”.

My father was not deterred and joined the Jamaican Army. He was then transferred to the British Eighth Army, fighting in Italy in the Second World War. Again, my father was very reluctant to talk about what he saw of combat. But his medals, which he left to me after his death, spoke volumes. Ironically, although my father became experienced enough in the British Army to train white soldiers to become officers, because he was black he was not allowed to become an officer and attained only the rank of sergeant.

I pay tribute to the British and Caribbean Veterans Association, which tries to keep the memories of these brave men and women alive to this day. It has a simple mantra, but it is one that says it all: “We were there”. The King’s African Rifles were the largest force of African troops in British Africa. First formed in 1902, the force saw action throughout the continent during the war, especially in east Africa. The West African Frontier Force, formed in 1900 was comprised mainly of African troops and consisted of the Queen’s Own Nigeria Regiment, the Gold Coast Regiment, the Royal Sierra Leone Regiment and the Gambia Regiment. Much like the descendants of the West Indian Regiment, descendants of the African regiments who fought in both world wars today form the bedrock of membership of Britain’s black-majority churches.

On 11 October last year, the Prime Minister said that the objectives of next year’s anniversary are as follows: to honour those who served; to remember those who died, and to ensure that the lessons learnt live with us not as a monument to military glory, but as a record of toil and sacrifice. After all, the good book does say, “Blessed are the peacemakers”. Ultimately it has to be discussion and diplomacy, not wars, that move our world forwards. I am glad to hear that the Government intend to use a variety of means to achieve these objectives next year, but I echo the noble Baroness, Lady Young, when she says that these issues need to be on the national curriculum.

Much has been said about Britain’s disaffected youth, and in particular black youth. It is my personal view that part of that disaffection is a feeling of not belonging to Britain, and I suspect that the majority of these young men do not know that their ancestors played a full part in the First World War and the Second World War. That is why young children need to know about their own heritage, and that those valiant soldiers were not only white. As the years pass by, it becomes increasingly important that the Government’s initiatives should ensure that the contribution of people from Africa, Asia and the Caribbean to British efforts in the First World War is recognised.

16:32

[Lord Parekh]

My Lords, I begin by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, for introducing this debate. I am sure that noble Lords have seen the mural in the Royal Gallery by Daniel Maclise. In the mural a black man is pointing to one of the marines who shot the great admiral. Only a few inches away is an Arab gentleman on Nelson’s ship. This is simply to point out that blacks, Asians and Caribbeans played an important role not only in the First World War and the Second World War, but in the Napoleonic wars. I cannot produce the facts and figures, not because they are not available, but because this is not the time. The history pre and post the Napoleonic wars shows that the role played by Africans and Indians was very considerable. This would seem to suggest that the liberty and democracy that this country rightly enjoys are things to which other communities have contributed.

During the two world wars, which is what we are here to discuss, some 5 million Indians, Caribbeans and Africans participated. More than 130,000 people died, and 42 of them fought so gallantly that they were awarded the Victoria Cross. As my good and noble friend Lord Desai pointed out, it was not just a question of people dying, it was a question of how money was raised and loans were made, as well as the ambulance corps and voluntary groups to which Indians contributed in large numbers, including Mahatma Gandhi. He was opposed to war, but because he had benefited from the British empire, he felt an obligation to help in any non-violent way he could. Let us not forget that.

In the light of all that, I want to raise three questions. What are we commemorating? Why are we commemorating, and how should we do it? I am not entirely sure that we are clear about our answers to any of these three questions either today or through the monuments that we have built. Let us take the First World War, whose centenary falls next year, and to which the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London rightly referred. In my view and that of many historians, the First World War was unwise in its conception, incompetent in its conduct—ordinary soldiers said that it was like lions being led by donkeys—and the post-war settlement was brutal, leading to the Treaty of Versailles and what happened after that.

It shook the European consciousness so deeply that it discredited Europe in the eyes of lots of people, including those in India and elsewhere. They thought, “If Europeans can engage in that kind of brutality and that kind of war, they are not entitled to talk of European civilisation”. It also disillusioned large numbers of people within Europe about the kind of society that they had created and led to interwar movements that paved the way for the Second World War.

What are we commemorating? In my view, we should be commemorating the fact that war is not the answer to many of our intractable problems; that it should not be romanticised, because it involves an enormous amount of suffering; that, wherever possible, there has to be an alternative way than violence of dealing with conflicts; and, equally importantly, that our political leaders can be extremely incompetent and are not always to be trusted. A recent example is that it has taken them 10 years to realise that the Americans should be talking to the Taliban. Hundreds and thousands of lives could have been saved if something that many of us have been talking about had been realised earlier. Just because this happens to be a life on the other side of the world, they think that they can gamble, take things for granted and continue to make mistakes.

For me, the most important message of the First World War is that our leaders are not as bright as they think they are. They are capable of more stupidity than ordinary human beings. In fact, if any manager of a company had handled his affairs in the same way as some of our Prime Ministers and presidents have handled the great affairs of their countries, they would have been sacked a long time ago. That, to me, is one of the important lessons of the First World War, along with many others.

So why should we be commemorating those things? It is for three reasons. First, so that we can do justice to the victims; secondly, so that we do not repeat the mistake and so that these things are burnt into the consciousness of ordinary human beings; and, thirdly, that we recognise the solidarity of the Commonwealth because it has contributed substantially to the exercise.

How should we commemorate? I am not entirely keen on statues, monuments and memorials. We walk by statues. What do they tell us? Statues are mute and do not tell the story. The story has to be told. Therefore, I should have thought that the commemoration could take a form such as a national day of reflection on what happened and why, and which we should get our schoolchildren to recognise through the school syllabus. There could be an annual televised lecture which becomes a national event, where people talk about these things in their hearths and homes. There could be an essay competition in schools. As the right reverend Prelate rightly said, we should help to construct a new national narrative in which the Commonwealth contribution is fully appreciated. More importantly, for me, as we are talking about the Commonwealth contribution, how can we link up with other Commonwealth countries to commemorate this? It is not just about commemorating what they did for us but, rather, doing it jointly.

Finally, I recognise that six out of seven speakers so far this afternoon are from within the Commonwealth and only one is British, in the colour sense—that is, white. That tells us something. If we value the Commonwealth contribution, I should have thought that people in equal proportion across the colour boundaries would have joined in, but it is only one versus six. Therefore, it is important that we take the subject far more seriously than we seem to have done.

16:39

[Lord Bilimoria]

My Lords, I am grateful to speak in the gap. As it happens, our elder daughter is on a school visit from Wellington College to Ypres in Belgium as we speak. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Young, for initiating this debate and for her excellent speech. I emphasise one of the points that she and the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, made, which is that our students must learn and must know.

For six years, I was privileged to be the chair of the commemoration committee of the Memorial Gates, which were founded by the noble Baroness, Lady Flather. I am sorry that she is not here, because it was thanks to her that those gates were erected, and they are a memorial to the contribution of the 5 million volunteers from the Indian subcontinent, Africa and the Caribbean who served in World War I and World War II. In the First World War, 1.5 million men from the Indian subcontinent served, and 70,000 made the ultimate sacrifice. As the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, said, I do not think that our children realise that in the First World War, the Indians were not allowed to become officers.

The only Indian officers were the doctors. It was only after the First World War that people such as my grandfather, the late Brigadier Bilimoria, was allowed to be commissioned at Sandhurst. In the First World War, even my tiny community, the Zoroastrian-Parsee community, had doctors who served; doctors like Captain Baputi Chenoy and doctors like Major Ravenshaw Kapadia, who was given the Military Cross.

In the Second World War the contribution from the Indian subcontinent was even greater. It was 2.5 million volunteers—the largest voluntary army the world has ever known. My own late father, Lieutenant-General Faridoon Bilimoria, was from the 5 Gurkhas. The uncle of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London served in the 5 Gurkhas and made the ultimate sacrifice in the Second World War. My father’s battalion 2/5 Gurkhas was awarded three Victoria Crosses.

All I would request is that the Minister takes the message that our children must realise that we would not be enjoying the freedoms and all the benefits that we have today without the service—without the sacrifice—of the millions of volunteers from south Asia, the Indian subcontinent, Africa and the Caribbean. Our children must learn; they must remember; they must appreciate; they must be inspired; and they must never ever forget.

16:40

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Young, of Hornsey, and all who have spoken in this debate for making it a very special moment. It has been a wonderful short debate, dealing with very important issues and it has been very moving to listen to all the points that have been made. I also thank the Library for a very good research note, which has obviously influenced a number of people’s contributions and indeed has worked into mine as well.

When the British Government declared war in 1914, they did so on behalf of the empire and not just of the UK. It is right that the forthcoming World War I celebrations recognise the voluntary participation of so many people then living in the empire and the considerable sacrifices that were made throughout the war. In the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, “Our boys weren’t just Tommies—they were Tariqs and Tajinders too”. Of course, they were not just boys either, although that is another story.

As many noble Lords have said, the figures are not well enough known. As my noble friend Lady Howells said, some contributions are still not being properly acknowledged. There were some 1.5 million men from the Indian subcontinent. It is worth pointing out, as has been mentioned, that participants from the Indian subcontinent won 13,000 medals, including 12 Victoria Crosses. The Caribbean supplied 15,000 soldiers who made up the British West Indies Regiment and there were around 55,000 soldiers from Africa who mainly fought in that continent. As the right reverend Prelate reminded us, there were Gurkhas, as always. When people go to the major war graves in the Low Countries, the lasting memory that we have in these endless fields, beautifully maintained as they should be, is the moving sight of the rows of crosses, but search harder and you can find the memorials to the 47,000 troops from the Indian subcontinent who died on the Western Front. There are Sikh memorials, Jewish and Muslim graves, as well as the grave markers of members of the Chinese Labour Corps.

The centenary that we are commemorating must engage with many national and international levels. It is hoped that—as the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, said—there will be activity in many places around the Commonwealth. In our own country, given the diversity and the challenges that exist in the moment, we should use this commemoration to bring every one of Britain’s communities into some form of discussion and knowledge about the event because so many of their forebears were involved in the First World War.

Having said that, it is important that the First World War be remembered for more than the industrialisation of death that it caused. I hope that the Minister will accept that it will be important to ensure that the commemoration of the centenary is respectful, thoughtful and reflective, without in any way glorifying the nature of the war and the appalling human sacrifice that took place; a commemoration, not a celebration.

There is a huge opportunity here if we can but grasp it. The Imperial War Museum will play a pivotal role; the National Army Museum and local museums will play their parts. In addition, the Heritage Lottery Fund will give £6 million to projects marking the centenary. So it would be really good if the majority of those funds could be reserved to help local areas and communities explore their history and heritage so as to better understand the war’s impact on their communities—to create a truthful narrative, as suggested by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London.

The Government have laid out three themes for the commemoration: remembrance, youth and education. That seems to be about right, but I hope there will also be an opportunity to reflect on why the war was waged and to recognise, as the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, said, that we would not have freedom today had it not been for the courageous sacrifice and service of those brave individuals then. It is important that we understand why so many Tariqs and Tajinders, as well as Tommies, were prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice for that ideal, and what the significance of that coming together of the empire means today and in the future.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Young, reminded us, much has been achieved in terms of knowledge and understanding of the contribution made by people from Africa, Asia and the Caribbean to the British effort in the First World War. As she also reminded us, there is much more to discover and understand about the impact of all this not only in the trenches and on the battlefields but in the outposts of empire. The human and political strands must be woven into the commemoration. I look forward to hearing how that will happen from the Minister.

16:46

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, first, I add my own thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, for securing this debate and for giving us the opportunity again to discuss these important commemorations.

The First World War is integral to our history. The Government are committed to commemorating its centenary appropriately. The scale is overwhelming: over 16.5 million deaths, military and civilian, with 1.25 million from Britain and its then empire, colonies and dominions alone. Let us not forget, either, the many more who returned home physically and mentally wounded. More countries were involved in the war than not, from the vast Indian subcontinent to the small island of Nevis. All should be remembered for the part they played, and I assure your Lordships that they will.

Those contributions were as diverse as the countries involved. Many countries provided not only troops but porters, engineers and medics, among others. The noble Baroness, Lady Howells, particularly mentioned the Caribbean. I found out that men travelled from there at their own expense to enlist. In Africa, Asia and the Caribbean there were significant financial contributions both centrally and from citizens who raised large amounts, at a time when they were already feeling economic hardships at home. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Desai, who referred to the Indian Army being paid by Indian taxpayers. He also mentioned the donations in kind, as did a number of other noble Lords, with each country giving what it could. Whether wood, fruit, sugar, rum, aeroplanes or whatever it was, those were great contributions.

Remembering these contributions is not new for us. I am particularly sad that the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, is not with us today and I wish her a speedy recovery. As the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, said, she had so much to do with the Memorial Gates, as did he. That inscription on the Memorial Gates on Constitution Hill is in memory of the 5 million volunteers from the Indian subcontinent, Africa and the Caribbean. It is as meaningful today as it ever was, while the nearby pavilion includes the names of 23 gallant men from those regions who were awarded the Victoria Cross in World War One, alongside those from the Second World War. I am sure that the gates will be used over the four years of commemorations. I rarely part company with the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, but these memorial places are not necessarily there for their stone but because they are a focal point for people to gather in a meaningful way.

The centenary gives us a new opportunity to mark these important contributions. Commonwealth representatives will be invited to stay after the closing ceremony of the Commonwealth Games to attend a service of commemoration at Glasgow Cathedral on 4 August next year. It was right that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London referred to this, because it will be followed by a wreath-laying service at the city’s cenotaph.

The nearly 230,000 deaths among military personnel from countries now within the Commonwealth are well documented. However, the speed with which some of them entered the battlefield was extraordinary, as the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, mentioned, for the British Indian Army arrived in France on 26 September 1914 and was engaged in fierce fighting at Ypres the following month. Their heroic exploits are rightly commemorated at Neuve Chapelle, where a memorial stands as an enduring testament to the men from the modern-day sub-continent who also served with distinction at places like Gallipoli and Mesopotamia. Indeed, we heard from the noble Lords, Lord Bilimoria and Lord Taylor of Warwick, of their own families’ service. Men from across the African continent contributed, whether it was the Egyptians helping to guard the Suez Canal, then British Nigeria contributing to the German surrender at Duala, or the South Africans seizing Delville Wood with great loss. There were many more occasions such as this across the Commonwealth.

Turning to the Caribbean military contribution, the British West Indies Regiment’s actions in Palestine caused General Allenby to note that:

“All ranks behaved with great gallantry under heavy rifle and shell fire and contributed in no small measure to the success of the operations”.

The names of those from all parts of the Commonwealth who died at the Western Front and beyond are recorded in those immaculately tended cemeteries and memorials of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, one of our invaluable partners in this programme of commemoration. Funded proportionately in relation to war casualties by its member nations, our Government provide some 78% of the commission’s funding. Many of its cemeteries will provide a poignant backdrop to centenary events around the world, and they are also providing wise counsel to us.

What the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, said about Commonwealth partners was important. It is essential that the entire Commonwealth plays a full part in the centenary commemorations. The Prime Minister’s special representative, Dr Andrew Murrison, has held a number of meetings with the Commonwealth high commissions in London to share our plans and invite their involvement. There are plans for a plenary session involving all high commissions in the autumn, and there have also been discussions with groups including the Commonwealth Secretariat.

It was absolutely right that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, referred to my noble friend Lady Warsi. As part of her energetic efforts to highlight the contributions of the Commonwealth, she visited the Grootebeek military cemetery and the First World War graves of soldiers from her parents’ home village in Pakistan. Similarly, we can all be inspired by the First World War centenary to gain a greater understanding of our roots. Indeed, one of the key aims of the battlefield visits project in England, and now in Scotland, is that pupils are given the opportunity to learn about the role of the Commonwealth and former empire countries which fought in the war.

The noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, made some particularly poignant comments about history and its teaching. It has also been said that education and youth are absolutely key to our efforts. What the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, said about that was equally moving. Even before the recent launch of the small community grants scheme, the Heritage Lottery Fund is playing a key role in connecting communities with their First World War past; the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, mentioned this particularly. They have given early support towards a number of projects which highlight the role played by the African, Asian and Caribbean Commonwealth soldiers in this critical phase of British history. The right reverend Prelate mentioned nation building. This was important for that reason as well.

Through measures like the battlefields visits programme and the HLF-supported projects, not only will we gain a better understanding of our past but, collectively, a strengthened feeling of national identity in today’s Britain, whatever our cultural or ethnic background. There is no doubt that this country could not have prevailed in the First World War without the support and sacrifice of the Commonwealth countries. As we came together then, so the centenary will give us an opportunity to come together again to reaffirm our shared values. The noble Baroness, Lady Howells of St Davids, spoke movingly about them. Those values have been forged through experiences that will not be forgotten and they should bind us together inseparably. Recognition of the important role that men and women from Africa, Asia and the Caribbean played is an integral part of the Government’s plans for an inclusive commemoration.

The commemoration will not gloss over the horror of the First World War or, indeed, who won. I think I would need an hour to digest and satisfy the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, in his questions around what, why and how, but they are particularly important as many people discover things about that war through listening to different historians—I have yet to meet historians who take the same line, and no doubt we will hear a lot from them. We will also want to come to our own judgments, and that is why the Government are not planning anything along one theme. It is for people to discover for themselves and it is why the battlefield visits are going to be so important. Over the next four or five years, two pupils and a teacher from every secondary school will go and see the Western Front for themselves. I would also like to reassure the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London and all other noble Lords that the Government approach the commemoration in a spirit of reconciliation, acknowledging that loss and suffering recognise no national boundaries and that those who were once our adversaries are now our partners in building a better world.

Committee adjourned at 4.56 pm.

House of Lords

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Thursday, 20 June 2013.

11:00

Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Liverpool.

Violence Against Women

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Question

11:06

Asked By

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to the report Deeds or Words? by the End Violence Against Women coalition.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, the Government are fully committed to preventing and combating violence against women and girls. Our national campaigns try to encourage teenagers to rethink their views about abuse. Government-funded community activity challenges so-called “honour crimes” and new legislation against stalking and forced marriage sends a strong preventive message. However, as this report highlights, there is much more to do. Our updated action plan strengthens our preventive approach, responding to a number of the End Violence Against Women coalition’s recommendations.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

I thank the Minister for that very useful list of activities. However, in view of the report’s considerable concern that the Department for Education has substantially reduced spending in this whole area, how will the Government ensure that every child receives age-appropriate information in schools—for example, about the harmful effects of pornography—not least since a report from the Children’s Commissioner for England, entitled Porn is Everywhere, also underlines the urgent need for such guidance?

[Baroness Northover]

This report emphasises that we face a wide cultural challenge, which needs to be tackled at every level by everybody. The quality of teaching in schools is very important. The Department for Education is providing funding for the PSHE Association to work with schools to support them in developing their own curricula and improving the quality of teaching, which is clearly key. In addition, from September 2014, the new computing curriculum ensures that, for the first time, pupils aged five to 11 will be taught about online safety, including issues such as sexting and cyberbullying.

[Lord McColl of Dulwich]

My Lords, as people generally seem very reluctant to believe the extent of the abuse, is it not time for the Government to broadcast the figures in more dramatic terms? For instance, they could say that millions of men are smashing up millions of women and that millions of men are sexually abusing millions of children. These abusers are normally distributed throughout society, which might account for the fact that so few prosecutions occur.

[Baroness Northover]

It is, indeed, a widespread problem. Last year, 88 women were killed by a partner, 60,000 women were raped and 400,000 were sexually abused. The report talks about a “watershed moment” in relation to child sexual abuse and other violence against women and girls, as shown by the concern about the Savile investigations, and so on. We have to make sure that it is indeed a watershed moment and that things start to improve.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, the noble Baroness will be aware of the value of women’s refuges, which allow women to remove themselves from immediate danger of physical or sexual violence towards them or their children. A number of refuges are reporting serious financial difficulties at the moment. Will the Government consider carrying out some kind of review of the impact of local government cuts and of stopping the ring-fencing of financial support so that we can assess that impact and see what can be done to ensure that these refuges have the finance that they so desperately need?

[Baroness Northover]

Across government, we are determined to make sure that we do everything we can to protect the victims of domestic abuse. I know that colleagues across government have looked at this issue. If the noble Baroness has more specific information, I would welcome receiving it.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames]

My Lords, there is a clear link between domestic violence and sexual abuse and women’s offending, with between 50% and 80% of the women in our prisons being victims. Is this not a sound reason for devoting more government resources, as this report demands, to education and to campaigning in the community to help to bring an end to this dreadful scourge?

[Baroness Northover]

We recognise the challenge posed by female offenders and the fact that they themselves are often at risk of violence and have specific rehabilitation needs, as well as often having high levels of mental health problems. Many of them have indeed suffered domestic violence. The Ministry of Justice has just set up a cross-departmental advisory board on women offenders, chaired by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State. This group will be looking at more provision in the community, more rehabilitation, a review of the prison estate to raise the profile of women offenders and the factors associated with offending that my noble friend has just pointed to.

[Baroness Gale]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the level of domestic and sexual abuse towards women and girls in our country is an absolute disgrace? Does she further agree that the daily displays of semi-nude women in the popular tabloids help only to build up disrespect among boys and young men in their formative years? Therefore, will she join me in congratulating the No More Page 3 campaign? More than 106,000 people have already signed its petition, including me. If she agrees to endorse that campaign, perhaps she could sign the petition herself, as I believe that it is one way of combating the disrespect that can build up among boys and young men.

[Baroness Northover]

Yes. On Monday, on the subject of women on boards, I described a company as being outdated for having no women on its board. I would describe what the noble Baroness has portrayed as also being outdated. Personally, I would indeed endorse the campaign and I am astonished that we are still fighting this battle a number of years down the track. That said, of course we support freedom of speech, but I think it is about time that we made very clear what we find acceptable and what we do not.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, domestic violence is clearly a loathsome feature of our community. Does the noble Baroness agree that, as so much domestic violence is founded on the exploitation by men of their relative superiority in strength, physically and economically, over women, there is a strong case for either legislation or sentencing guidelines to be considered regarding domestic violence as an aggravated form of violence, to be dealt with, where appropriate, by condign punishment?

[Baroness Northover]

I am sure that the group that I mentioned earlier will be looking at exactly that.

[Lord Avebury]

Does my noble friend think that the leniency shown to Mr Saatchi when he half-strangled his wife set the wrong tone?

[Baroness Northover]

I cannot comment on a particular case. However, I am struck by the media reaction, which is really very interesting. I am struck by the support and sympathy for people who find themselves in such situations and by the fact that these problems go through every level of society.

Unemployment: Young People

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Question

11:15

Asked By

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking with other European Union member states to tackle youth unemployment.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)]

My Lords, the Minister for Employment attended a ministerial meeting on youth unemployment in Madrid yesterday under the European initiative for growth and jobs. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions will attend a follow-up in Berlin on 3 July. Youth unemployment is on the June agenda of both the European employment and social policy council and the European Council, and UK experts are members of the team reforming the Greek public employment service.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

I think I thank the Minister for his Answer. He is telling us what is going to happen, but does he agree that with nearly a quarter of under-25s in the European area unemployed, the only way we can solve this is on a European-wide level? To tackle this crisis, should he not join Lib Dem MEPs and others who have called for the UK to make the most of the €6 billion EU youth guarantee scheme, which ensures that all under-25s receive continued education, a job, apprenticeship or traineeship? How would the Government use the money that would come from this European initiative?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, clearly there are various initiatives. Some €6 billion across Europe is not a huge amount, and we are spending a great deal on our youth unemployment issues with the youth contract. If it emerges out of these meetings that one of the aspects of the European scheme is to encourage SMEs to take on youngsters by offering loans, clearly that is something that we will look at.

[Lord Barnett]

My Lords, does the noble Lord accept that talking to others might be helpful, but that generally they are pretty useless, especially in summits? Will he also accept that 1% growth at best over the coming years will be no way to help to increase employment among young people or anybody else?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, perhaps I should not comment on the uselessness or otherwise of summits.

One of the most interesting things about this current recession, or slowdown in growth—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Freud]

We have had a recession and we are now having slow growth. One of the most interesting things is how the effects on employment have been nothing like what we have seen in previous recessions. One reason is the effectiveness of active labour market polices, particularly those that address youth unemployment, which has been coming down in the last year in particular in a way that it probably would not have done in previous recessions.

[Lord Tebbit]

My Lords, will my noble friend remind the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, that money that comes from Europe is our money, which has gone to Brussels, has had a large amount sliced off for its own purposes and waste, and has then been graciously returned to us? Can he also explain to me, because I do not understand, why so many young people are unemployed here but so many young people can come from Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and find jobs here without any trouble at all? What is the explanation for that?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, the blunt explanation for that is that we have a welfare system that traps people in inactivity and makes it very difficult for them to pick up some of the jobs that other people find it easy to take. That is why we are reforming the welfare system root and branch, in particular why we are bringing in the universal credit, which will get rid of that trapping effect of our benefit system.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

In the coming year, will more young people be taken on as apprentices in the Government’s apprentice scheme?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, one of the recommendations of the Wolf report, which, as noble Lord’s will remember, I am very enthusiastic about, is to underpin the importance of apprenticeships and vocational training. In the latest year for which I have a record, 2011-12, we had more than half a million apprenticeships—520,000. That is up 86% on the two years before. Clearly this is one of the most important ways in which to get youth back into the workforce in a sustainable way, and it is something that we are pursuing aggressively.

[Baroness Sherlock]

My Lords, the Minister might not realise that one consequence of our very, very slow growth is that 1 million young people are out of work. In the north-east, where I live, a quarter of young people are out of work. We now need something really radical. May I make a suggestion? Labour’s job guarantee would mean that any young person out of work for a year would be guaranteed a job and would have to take it. Will he match that?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, we have a huge number of programmes in our youth contract to encourage people into work. One thing I need to emphasise is that we have a long-term problem of disengaged youth, which we had right through the longest boom we have ever had. The real measure here is people not in education or work. In 2001, that figure stood at just shy of 1 million and it rose through the boom period. Since the election, we have pulled it down by 60,000. The figure currently is 1.3 million. It is a real problem that cannot be brought down with short-term programmes; it is brought down by fundamentally restructuring how youngsters are supported—through vocational education as a key underpinning to get these kids into meaningful long-term work.

Turkey

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Question

11:22

Asked by

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the political situation in Turkey.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, Turkey is a democracy with multiparty elections and a democratically elected Government. We are following events in Turkey closely. There have been disturbances in Ankara and Istanbul. The Foreign Secretary and the Minister for Europe have spoken to their Turkish counterparts about the protests. As friends of Turkey we hope to see the issues raised by the protesters resolved peacefully through dialogue. A stable, democratic and prosperous Turkey is important for regional stability. Turkey remains an important foreign policy partner and a NATO ally, and the UK will continue to support its reform agenda.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the resilience of a democracy is tested through how it responds to internal dissent? The clampdown in the past three weeks on not just protesters but also on medics, hoteliers and simple bystanders who were only helping the wounded as well as on the media demonstrates an authoritarian strand. Does she agree that this can assist only those who argue against Turkey’s entry into the EU on the basis of the Copenhagen criteria? Is she working with European partners, as well as Turkish authorities, to help solve this?

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend raises important points and we have raised our concerns exactly in the way that she has described. Of course, she will accept that Turkey is on a positive path to reform. A huge amount of economic and constitutional reform has been effected. As regards Europe, we are concerned about countries that are raising concerns about not opening up further chapters on accession; however, we must also remember that before these protests there were many countries which for the past three years have objected to opening up any chapters on further accession.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

There is proper concern at the increasing authoritarian tendencies by the Turkish Government and certain Islamic tendencies. However, should not the Turkish Government be given credit for their opening up to their Kurdish minority and their far greater reconciliation than any previous Government, not only in Turkey, particularly in the south-east provinces, but also in relations with the Kurds in northern Iraq?

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord makes an important point. As well as reform of the constitution generally that has assisted the Kurdish peace process, progress in that process has meant that Turkey has been heading in the right direction, and we must support and congratulate it on that.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece]

My Lords, after the terrible scenes that we have seen over the past few weeks of how the security forces and police have responded to these demonstrations, does my noble friend share my view that Turkey’s huge economic success in the past decade now needs urgently to be matched by democratic reforms to ensure an anti-authoritarian, inclusive society that the younger generation in particular, who are educated, middle class and secular—I include women in this—are demanding? I declare that I have family and friends who have been involved and caught up in this, especially women’s groups with whom I work. Does my noble friend also think, as has been touched on, that the UK and the EU now need to engage more than ever with Turkey? As has been mentioned, fundamental chapters have been closed, such as Chapter 24 that would force the reform of justice, freedom and security, and Chapter 22 on regional development.

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend makes an important point in relation to Turkey’s economy. It has enjoyed 5% growth on average over the past 10 years. It is effectively one of Europe’s strongest-growing economies. We must congratulate Turkey on that. Britain has seen success on the back of it, but I take the noble Baroness’s point in relation to further European accession. It is because Turkey continues its path towards European accession that it carries on making these reforms and we must therefore encourage rather than discourage it.

[Lord Hylton]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness’s response in regard to the Kurdish question that is long outstanding in Turkey. Does this not include work on a new constitution and can our Government be helpful through our experience of devolution within the United Kingdom?

[Baroness Warsi]

We always stand ready to support Turkey in whatever way we feel that we can add value.

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, I share the view that the Minister has expressed about the importance of Turkey, to this country, its own region and potentially the European Union. I would like to return to one of the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, because it is important to get a precise answer. The attacks on doctors and nurses in the course of these demonstrations, and on hospitals to where people injured in the demonstrations have been taken, seem to raise profound questions about the way in which we work with the World Medical Association and other competent medical authorities. How do the Government propose to do that? Plainly it cannot be the case that those who are assisting the injured and seriously injured are left to fend for themselves.

[Baroness Warsi]

It is important for noble Lords to understand slightly more the complexity of what led to these protests. What started off as concerns about a Bill on the use and sale of alcohol became an environmental dispute about the development of a shopping mall in Gezi Park, which has stood for 60 years. This then became a broader political dispute. It is important for us to remember that there are different things happening with the different groups in Turkey, but I completely take the noble Lord’s point in relation to making sure that these matters are resolved peacefully and by a political dialogue, and that Turkey continues to be aware of its international obligations in dealing with these protests.

[Lord Dykes]

Will my noble friend make specific representations about the large number of journalists and lawyers who seem to be languishing in Turkish jails, which is an affront to democracy?

[Baroness Warsi]

I will see that we raise that in bilateral discussions.

Armed Forces: Redundancies

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Question

11:29

Asked By

[Lord Touhig]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the implications of the most recently announced redundancies in the British Army for the United Kingdom’s defence capabilities.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, the Chief of the General Staff and his team assess that the size and the structure of the Army set out in Future Army 2020 will deliver the level of capability agreed in the October 2010 SDSR and the associated national security strategy. The Army’s element of the Armed Forces redundancy programme is a consequence of the size of the Army being delivered under Future Army 2020 and as such there are no implications for the UK’s defence capabilities.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords:

“There’s never been a better time to be a soldier, to get qualified and have a career”.

That is on the Army website at this minute. It further states that,

“there will be even more opportunities for people who want to enjoy the challenges that come with being a soldier”.

That is a sham. If there were any justice the Government would be prosecuted for issuing a misleading prospectus. The Minister is well regarded in this House, deservedly so, and perhaps he is here with a heavy heart today, but how much longer will the Government go on sacking highly trained, highly skilled, highly motivated soldiers who have been trained at great expense to the taxpayer and have served our country well, and, at the same time, spend an absolute fortune on advertising for, recruiting and training their replacements? It is a total waste of taxpayers’ money and is harming our defence capability.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, no Government likes making these kinds of redundancies. While reduced recruiting and fewer extensions of service will account for some reductions, a redundancy programme is needed to ensure that the right balance of skills is maintained.

[Lord Craig of Radley]

My Lords, is it not the case that more than 80% of those who are on the redundancy programme this time are volunteers? If so, what does that say about morale in the Armed Forces, particularly in the Army?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the number of applications for redundancy is not a good indicator of the state of morale because the Army has deliberately set out to maximise applications. Additionally, it should be noted that only 30% of those who were eligible applied for redundancy.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

My Lords, will the Minister expand on his Answer in relation to reductions in the Army to include reductions in the Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy? The proposals were for 5,000 reductions in the RAF and 5,000 in the Royal Navy. Can he tell the House the timing of those reductions and what progress has been made? Following on from the previous question, what is the state of morale in the Armed Forces if voluntary redundancies are of the extent about which we have been told?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I think I covered the question of morale in my previous answer. As to redundancies in the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force, in tranche 1, 2,800 personnel—just over 1,000 Royal Navy, 920 Army and 920 RAF—were selected for redundancy, of which 62% were applicants. In tranche 2 of the Armed Forces redundancy programme, 3,760 personnel—165 Royal Navy, 2,880 Army and 750 RAF—were selected for redundancy. Achieving the reductions required to bring the Regular Army to a strength of 82,000 is expected to require a further redundancy tranche, which may also include medical personnel of the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force. However, at this point, no decision on this has been taken.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, the Minister is aware that the Chief of the General Staff and the Secretary of State for Defence are both on record as saying that any further cuts would dramatically impact on our military capability. All of us who have any knowledge of the MoD know that there is insufficient funding for Future Force 2020, to which the Minister referred. Notwithstanding this and assuming that there will be further cuts, have we conducted a detailed analysis—rather like the highly regarded global strategy paper that was produced—looking at the true impact of these forced reductions on our Armed Forces’ ability to conduct the military operations that our nation has a right to expect of them?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, on the first part of the noble Lord’s question, as he would expect, I agree with the Secretary of State. On the issue of detailed analysis, as the noble Lord knows there are some very bright people in the Ministry of Defence and I can assure him that endless meetings are taking place to discuss the way forward.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, could my noble friend very gently point out to noble Lords opposite that none of this would have been necessary had the previous Government not made such a mess of the defence procurement programme and a mess of our economy?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I have done this on numerous occasions, and not always in a gentle fashion.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall]

Would the noble Lord be kind enough to return to the Question he was originally asked by my noble friend Lord Touhig and address the recruitment campaign? I do not think I heard him answer the implied question. Why are we still recruiting when we are making redundancies?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, even while reducing in size, the army must continue to recruit new talent to replace those who are promoted. It needs to develop its own leaders. It cannot bring in people from outside to leadership roles without the necessary military experience.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas]

Will my noble friend say a word about the injured and the wounded, bearing in mind the very worthy tradition that wherever possible they were absorbed back into the armed services as soon as they were in a position to give of their best?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, all personnel who have been graded permanently below the minimum medical retention standard were exempt from redundancy and, where appropriate, will be medically discharged in due course. Every case of wounded, injured or sick will be assessed individually. No one will leave the Armed Forces through redundancy or otherwise until they have reached a point in their recovery where leaving is the right decision, however long it takes.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, is it not disingenuous and absurd to suggest that you can reduce the Army from 102,000 to 82,000 with no reduction in the nation’s defence capability? Will the noble Lord set out the figures clearly and frankly? What was the maximum military force that we were able to sustain over a number of years—for example in Iraq or Afghanistan—with an Army of 102,000, and what will be the maximum military force that we can deploy on a sustainable basis under the new arrangements for an Army of 82,000?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, this was not being disingenuous. This level of capability was agreed by the SDSR and the National Security Council.

Care Quality Commission: Morecambe Bay Hospitals

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Statement

11:37

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made in another place yesterday by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Health on Morecambe Bay Hospitals. The Statement is as follows.

“I wish to make a Statement about today’s independent report into the CQC’s regulatory oversight of University Hospitals, Morecambe Bay. What happened at Morecambe Bay Hospital is, above all, a terrible personal tragedy for all of the families involved. Before saying anything else, I want to apologise on behalf of the Government and the NHS for all the appalling suffering they have endured and, in that context, I know that the whole House will wish to extend our condolences to every one of them.

Joshua Titcombe’s tragic death was one of 12 serious untoward incidents, including five in the maternity department. His family and others have had to work tirelessly to expose the truth—and I want to pay tribute to them for that—but the fact is that they should not have had to go to such lengths. As we saw with Mid Staffs, a culture in the NHS had been allowed to develop in which defensiveness and secrecy were put ahead of patient safety and care. Today I want to explain to the House what the Government are doing to root out that culture and ensure that that kind of cover-up never happens again.

The independent report was commissioned by the new chief executive of the CQC, and the new team running the organisation has made it clear that there was a completely unacceptable attempt to cover up the deficiencies at the CQC. The report lists what went wrong. Unclear regulatory processes, reports commissioned and then deleted, lack of sharing of key information and communication problems throughout the organisation. Most of the facts are not in dispute. All of them are unacceptable. They have compounded the grief of the Titcombe family and many others.

The role of the regulator is to be a champion for patients, to expose poor care and to ensure that steps are taken to root it out. It must do this without fear or favour. It is clear that at Morecambe Bay the CQC failed in that fundamental duty. We now have a new leadership at the CQC and we should recognise its role in turning things around. David Behan was appointed chief executive in July 2012. One of his very first acts was to commission the report that we are now debating. David Prior was appointed the new chairman in January this year. He has rightly insisted that this report be published as soon as possible. Those two outstanding individuals have never shrunk from addressing head on the failings of the organisation they inherited and are wholly committed to turning the CQC into the fearless independent regulator the House would like to see. While I do not underestimate the challenge, I have every confidence in their ability to undertake it. David Prior will now report back to me on what further actions the CQC will take in response to the report, including internal disciplinary procedures and any other appropriate sanctions on individuals.

Working with the CQC and following the Francis report into the tragedy at Mid Staffs, the Government are putting in place far-reaching measures to put patient care and patient safety at the heart of how the NHS is regulated. The CQC is appointing three new chief inspectors—of hospitals, social care and general practice. This will provide an authoritative, independent voice on the quality of care in all the providers that the CQC regulates. The commission has already announced the appointment of Professor Sir Mike Richards as the new Chief Inspector of Hospitals and on Monday the CQC launched a consultation, “A New Start”, which outlines its new much tougher regulatory approach. This includes putting in place more specialist inspection teams with clinical expertise. It will include Ofsted-style performance ratings so that every member of the public can know how well their local hospital is doing, just as they do for their local school.

The Government will also amend the CQC registration requirements so that they include an emphasis on fundamental standards—the basic levels below which care must never fall, such as making sure patients are properly fed, washed and treated with dignity and respect. Failure to adhere to these will result in serious consequences for providers, including, potentially, criminal prosecution. The revised registration requirements will also include a new statutory duty of candour on providers that will require them to tell patients and regulators where there are failings in care—a failure that was identified clearly in today’s report.

Finally, we are putting in place, through the Care Bill, a new robust single failure regime for NHS hospitals. This will provide a more effective mechanism to address persistent failings in the quality of care, including the automatic suspension of trust boards when failings are not addressed promptly.

The events at Morecambe Bay, Mid Staffs and many other hospitals should never have been covered up, but they should never have happened in the first place, either. To prevent such tragedies we need to transform the approach to patient safety in our NHS. The Prime Minister has therefore asked Professor Don Berwick, President Obama’s former health adviser and one of the world’s foremost experts on patient safety, to advise us on how to create the right safety culture in the NHS. He and his committee will report later this summer.

In addition, later this year we will start to publish surgeon-level outcomes data for a wide range of surgical specialties. Most of all, we need a culture where, from the top to the bottom of NHS organisations, everyone is focused on reducing the chances of harming a patient in the course of their care, and a culture of openness and transparency to ensure that, when tragedies do occur, they are dealt with honestly so that any lessons can be learnt. Our thousands of dedicated doctors, nurses and healthcare assistants want nothing more than to be allowed to make this happen. We must not let them down or the families who suffered in Morecambe Bay”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

11:44

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for repeating the Statement, and I declare my interest as a consultant trainer with Cumberlege Connections and as chair of the Heart of England NHS Foundation Trust. Yesterday’s report will have left your Lordships shocked. The noble Earl began with an apology and we on this side of the House echo that apology. Of course, it is a sad fact of life that mistakes will be made. What is never acceptable is when people or organisations try to hide those mistakes. Sadly, this is what appears to have happened in this case.

The report covers a four-year period up until autumn 2012 and deals with failures in regulation, but also with subsequent attempts at a cover-up. It was only published thanks to the efforts of James Titcombe and his family, and I echo the tributes that the noble Earl has paid to him. It is essential that he and all the other families affected in Lancashire and Cumbria get the answers they are looking for. We on this side of the House are fully committed to making sure that this happens.

The most shocking revelation in this report is that in March 2012 an instruction was given by a member of senior management at the CQC to delete the findings of an internal review. Today’s report says:

“we did find evidence of the apparently deliberate suppression of an internal CQC report … and the alleged decision to suppress it … may constitute a broader and on-going cover-up”.

When one considers the context in which this takes place, it is truly shocking. At that time, we were almost two years into a public inquiry into the failings at Mid Staffordshire. That followed an earlier independent inquiry, also led by Robert Francis, following which all parts of the NHS had committed to full openness and transparency. It came after failings at other trusts, most notably Basildon and Thurrock, had been made available, which led to the Opposition calling for an in-depth look at hospitals and a new assurance that they were safe. That is why yesterday’s report is so hard to comprehend. It raises serious questions for the CQC and the Government, which I will take in turn.

On the question of the CQC, I agree with the noble Earl’s assessment of the quality of the new leadership team at the CQC. I commend the new chief executive, David Behan, for commissioning this report. However, yesterday the chair, Mr David Prior, said that he wants to draw a line under the issue. Does the noble Earl agree with me that that line can be drawn only when further questions about the report are answered?

On the cover-up, paragraph 1.17 of the summary of the report says, as I said earlier, that the order to delete,

“may constitute a broader and on-going cover-up”.

Will the noble Earl address this point directly and tell the House whether he is confident that this cover-up is no longer happening? Is he satisfied that the CQC is taking all appropriate steps, and does he have full confidence going forward, or does he believe that a further process of investigation is necessary?

More specifically, is anybody who is involved in the decision to delete that report still working at the CQC or elsewhere in the National Health Service? If they are, I think the public will find that very hard to accept. Given that accountability is essential, does he agree that the public would find it very hard indeed to accept data protection laws standing in the way of this? Will he therefore review the decision to shield the identities of those involved?

The noble Earl will probably have heard the Information Commissioner, speaking today about the use of the Data Protection Act, saying, as I understand it, that there is no blanket ban under the Data Protection Act that would deal with a situation like that, and that if there is an overriding public interest in the names being in the public domain, the Data Protection Act should not be prayed in aid.

I know that the CQC is now seeking further legal advice, and that is welcome. In the end, does the noble Earl agree that sometimes organisations have to override legal advice and do the right thing? I hope the CQC will do that and do it quickly.

Turning to the noble Earl’s department, can I just have it confirmed that the decision to delete the report was taken solely by senior management at the CQC? Can he confirm that officials in his department were not aware of that deleted internal report and were not involved in any discussions between the CQC and the department about it?

Yesterday, at Prime Minister’s Questions, the Prime Minister said that there should always be support for whistleblowers, and he was right. However, there are serious doubts about whether that happened in this case. Concerns about the CQC were raised by a whistleblower, but I understand that she was then subject to attempts to remove her from the CQC board. The noble Earl will recall that I raised this in the House, and he very kindly took action on the matter. It has been reported that the same whistleblower told the CQC board yesterday that she raised issues internally first and then within the department, including directly with the then Secretary of State, in a meeting. Is the noble Earl prepared to release the minutes of those meetings?

We note the important work of Mr Don Berwick, but should we not be getting on with implementing the recommendations of the Francis report in this regard? The Care Bill, which is now in your Lordships’ House, is an ideal vehicle for implementing Francis but is remarkably light on clauses relating to Robert Francis’s recommendations. His report emphasised the need for openness, transparency and candour. Openness will enable concerns and complaints to be raised freely and without having questions to answer. Transparency will enable the truth about performance and outcomes to be shared with everybody with an interest in it. Candour will ensure that any person harmed by the provision of a healthcare service is informed of that fact and an appropriate remedy offered.

Francis made specific recommendations, including that a statutory obligation should be imposed to observe a duty of candour. He wanted healthcare providers who believe or suspect that the treatment or care provided to a patient has caused death or serious injury to inform that patient, or a duly authorised person, of that fact as soon as practical. He said there should be a statutory duty on all directors of healthcare organisations to be truthful and that it should be made a criminal offence for any registered medical practitioner to knowingly obstruct another in the performance of the statutory duties that he wished to see enacted, to provide information to a patient or nearest relative intending to mislead, or to dishonestly make an untruthful statement. However, the only offence in the Bill is a corporate one of providing “false or misleading information”. That is not a duty of candour, so I was very surprised to see the Secretary of State say yesterday in the other place that there would be a duty of candour in the Care Bill. It is not in the Care Bill and I do not think that secondary legislation is sufficient.

Does the noble Earl also not agree, in the light of what happened at the CQC, that it is perverse that the duty not to provide false or misleading information applies only to providers? It does not apply to the CQC; to the other regulator, Monitor; to NHS England; or to his own department. Is he prepared to agree to amendments to the Care Bill on Report to extend this duty to the organisation that has been found so grievously to suppress information that it found itself uncomfortable with?

There is clearly a real problem about the approach that the CQC has taken to hospital regulation. Is the noble Earl willing to have a lengthier debate about regulation? I wonder whether we are just putting too much responsibility on regulators and not enough on the people who actually provide those services. I particularly worry about what he says about the introduction of Ofsted-style ratings into the health service. He will have seen evidence from a number of medical bodies, which are concerned that this is going to be too simple a process when judging something as complex as a hospital.

A hospital may be given a 1 rating—an outstanding rating Ofsted-style—but inevitably within a large hospital, although overall it may be a category 1 there are likely to be services that are not so good. My worry is that a hospital, because it has been given a 1, will not then be reinspected for a number of years, which is the Ofsted style, and its weaknesses will go undetected. When at some point a real problem with patient care comes into the open, it will undermine the whole credibility of the exercise undertaken by the CQC.

We know that the CQC has really been pushed into this by the Government and the Prime Minister. I hope it will be given the flexibility to come up with a more sophisticated approach. We do not want to set the CQC up for failures in the future. I am very fearful that a simple grading of 1 to 4 is almost guaranteed to do that. Overall, I am glad the Government have brought this Statement to Parliament. It is very important indeed that the messages and lessons are learnt. However, we need a much wider debate about the role of regulation in the health service and about whether the practicalities of this can be taken forward effectively by the CQC.

11:56

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for his measured comments, and I am the first to agree with him that the report we now have is very deeply worrying. It sets out conclusions about the CQC’s leadership and operation during the period in question that are very shocking. What happened was totally unacceptable.

The CQC today is a different organisation and I was glad to hear that the noble Lord recognised that. Its board and management team have been completely overhauled. A new chief executive and chair are in post. A powerful new Chief Inspector of Hospitals has been appointed, an appointment that has been welcomed widely. The new leadership, as the Statement said, commissioned and published this report to make sure that the events of the past are exposed and that lessons can be learnt from them.

I am very pleased that the CQC will now be overseeing the production of a report within the next two months to provide assurance that any cover-up has been fully exposed and stopped and that the mistakes made by the CQC in regard to Morecambe Bay hospitals are being put right. That will ensure that the organisation’s structures and procedures are such that these shocking events cannot be repeated.

The noble Lord referred to what I agree with him is the troubling issue of the anonymisation of names in this report. Our clear understanding from the CQC was that its legal advice was that the report had to be anonymised prior to publication to comply with data protection legislation. We asked the CQC to consider this further and to provide advice on whether it was possible to release the names. Yesterday, it gave a commitment to do just that. It has now done so and my understanding is that it will later today publish the names of certain individuals currently anonymised in the Grant Thornton report.

The noble Lord asked whether the Department of Health had seen the report prepared by the CQC, which was then withheld. We have extensively asked officials throughout the department. There is no evidence to suggest that anyone in the department knew that the CQC had commissioned a report into its handling of Morecambe Bay and subsequently withheld it, still less that anyone actually saw it.

The noble Lord raised the issue of the whistleblower, Kay Sheldon. Her concerns about the CQC’s capability were considered alongside a range of other evidence as part of the DoH performance and capability review that was carried out between October 2011 and February 2012. The issues she subsequently raised have been considered along with other information as part of the department’s ongoing oversight of the regulator. The appointment of David Prior as chair of the CQC in January and David Behan as chief executive last July, combined with a strengthened board and the CQC’s new strategy, puts the organisation in a good position for the future.

When Kay Sheldon approached the department she was asked to raise the issues with the CQC board, and DoH officials also raised the issues with the CQC team in line with our normal approach to operational issues. The noble Lord asked whether we will release the minutes of the meeting with Kay Sheldon and the Secretary of State. I am happy to take that request away and I will let the noble Lord know whether that will be possible.

The noble Lord rightly raised the issue of culture in the NHS. The overriding message from the document that we published, Patients First and Foremost, which arose out of Mid Staffs, is that the culture of the NHS governs the quality of everything it does. We are clear that radical transparency, excellence in leadership, clarity of accountability and consequences for failure are together necessary if we are to maintain in the NHS the focus on quality and safety and for concerns to be identified quickly and acted upon.

Transforming culture is a complex challenge that will be different in each organisation. We believe that a combination of the steps that we have set out, such as ratings, which we will debate during the course of the Care Bill, a Chief Inspector of Hospitals and a failure regime that puts quality on a par with financial failure will contribute to making a real difference to the experience of patients. I look forward to the debate on ratings because I know that the noble Lord has concerns about the idea.

The noble Lord referred specifically to the duty of candour. In our response to the Francis report we said that we would introduce a new statutory duty of candour on providers. We agree that it is essential that providers of health and social care must be open in their dealings with patients and service users. We intend to introduce an explicit duty of candour on providers as a CQC registration requirement. That will require providers to ensure that staff and clinicians are open with patients and service users where there are failings in care.

As with all requirements for registration with the CQC, our intention is that the duty of candour will be set in secondary and not primary legislation. I am sure that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State would not mind me saying that he made a slip of the tongue yesterday. He meant to say that a statutory duty of candour will be put in place. However, I emphasise that the duty will have the same legal power in secondary legislation as it would in primary legislation.

The noble Lord made a number of powerful points on false and misleading information. The Care Bill will make it a criminal offence for care providers to give false or misleading information where information is required by a legal obligation. We will specify through regulations the type of information within scope of the offence. However, a failure to provide information would be a breach of the relevant legal requirement to provide it and would be subject to appropriate action.

In determining the scope of the false or misleading information offence, our current focus is on information supplied by providers who are closest to patient care, in which inaccurate statements can allow poor and dangerous care to continue. We need to give further consideration to the events highlighted in the Grant Thornton report and to reflect on whether a false or misleading information offence should apply to other health bodies such as regulators.

12:04

[Lord Patel of Bradford]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement made by the noble Earl, particularly in respect to the CQC’s new focus on being a champion for patients, putting safety and care at the heart of the system and having more specialist teams. I am particularly pleased that David Behan has been appointed as the new chief executive. However, I am extremely concerned that another scandal is looming round the corner. There are very strong warnings. I am extremely concerned that mental health patients detained under the Mental Health Act are very poorly served at the moment. To put this in context, the CQC was formed from three organisations: the Healthcare Commission, the Commission for Social Care Inspection, and the Mental Health Act Commission. The Mental Health Act Commission was not an inspectorate—it was a visitorial body, and looked after the care and treatment of detained patients. It did so by employing a number of commissioners with specialist expertise, not only in understanding the issues faced by mental health patients but also in mental health law, which is so important.

[Noble Lords]

Question!

[Lord Patel of Bradford]

I am coming to the question.

As the former chairman of the Mental Health Act Commission, I was assured when those organisations merged that the CQC would keep the focus of those commissioners, those skills and that methodology, and that specialist focus and attention would be given. That is legally required under the Mental Health Act, but it has not happened. Over the last few years the expertise of Mental Health Act commissioners has been eroded. Can the Minister assure me that this focus will be renewed, and the focus of Mental Health Act commissioners returned? Will the Government consider having a chief inspector of mental health? That was one of the original ideas when it was formed.

[Baroness Northover]

I remind noble Lords that brief questions are allowed. As the Companion states, this is not the occasion for an immediate debate. I note that many noble Lords want to speak, so the briefer the better, please.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I recall the noble Lord, Lord Patel of Bradford, making those points very powerfully some years ago when we debated the Bill that created the CQC. He makes an extremely important point. I think that we can take it from the statements of David Prior yesterday that the decision taken in 2009 to take a generalist approach to inspection was a mistake. The CQC’s inspectors are in one sense specialist inspectors who are trained and supported to carry out their role, which they do to the best of their ability. However, requiring inspectors to have oversight of a wide range of service types from slimming clinics to acute hospitals, and indeed mental health establishments, has spread expertise too thinly.

We are clear that we must now work with the CQC to create a much more specialist approach to inspection, including on mental health. I think that the three new chief inspectors we are appointing will help to do that. It is not the whole answer, because they need to be supported by clinical expertise and by the people who are experts by virtue of their experience in care services. However, I will take away the noble Lord’s idea of a chief inspector of mental health. I must be honest with him that we have not discussed this, but I am sure that we now should.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I wonder if my noble friend would take account of the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, that legal advice can sometimes prevent people from doing the right thing. I was very sorry to hear that. I think that good legal advice should in fact produce the result of people doing the right thing. The second point I want to make relates to the claims against the health service for negligence. These have been quite substantial over the years. Could the CQC look at that area and examine the grass-roots standard of care given to patients?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the deputy Information Commissioner is quoted as saying that confidentiality and data protection issues should not stand in the way of disclosure where disclosure is clearly in the public interest. I completely agree with that. That is why our instant reaction yesterday, when we were told by the CQC that legal advice had said that the names of the individuals had to be kept confidential, was to challenge that. I am pleased that that decision is to be reversed and the names will be released.

On my noble and learned friend’s second point, most certainly yes: the CQC should take a view about matters relating to negligence. However, I would add that apart from the CQC, we now have the new Healthwatch bodies, part of whose function will be to make sure they provide good soft intelligence on what is happening in NHS and social providers in their local areas. The Healthwatch bodies can then act as the eyes and ears of the CQC, which, with the best will in the world, cannot be everywhere at once. In terms of the future—this is clearly a longer-term agenda—I hope we will have a system that is better equipped to pick up this kind of incident should it ever occur again.

[Lord Blair of Boughton]

My Lords, I welcome the idea of a statutory duty of candour and all the other means of regulation being discussed, but what appears to have happened here—and obviously it is just an allegation—is a simple case of malfeasance in public office. One of the things that seem to have happened over scandals such as Stafford, or even LIBOR, is that the ordinary criminal law of the United Kingdom has not been considered. I assume that the CQC is a public body. It is certainly paid for by public funds, and therefore its officials are subject to the common law.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, clearly it is a matter for the police to investigate criminal offences and for the Crown Prosecution Service to consider whether the test for prosecuting individuals has been met in this case. It is too early to reach a conclusion about whether this case highlights a gap in the law but if it does, I can assure the noble Lord that we will pursue it. We keep the criminal law under review. It is too early for me to say—I am not a lawyer—whether he is right, but I am sure that his comments will resonate strongly with the House.

[The Lord Bishop of Liverpool]

My Lords, chaplains occupy a unique position in hospitals in relation not just to patients but to staff. Will the Department of Health keep under review the role of the chaplain in relation to both patients and staff, especially when a culture of carelessness and intimidation emerges?

[Earl Howe]

The right reverend Prelate makes an extremely important point. The Government have been very supportive of the concept of hospital chaplains, who play an enormously important role in supporting not just patients but staff. I am concerned because I have heard anecdotally that in some hospitals there are moves to dispense with hospital chaplains. I am in touch with one of his right reverend colleagues about this. Once again, we have a mechanism—if I may call them a mechanism—that could be deployed to good effect in this context.

[Baroness Pitkeathley]

The Government’s support for the current leadership and the newly launched New Start consultation will be welcome to all those of us who know the current people. Can the Minister assure the House that the Government will stand firm in this support when the tabloid press starts calling, as it surely will, for more heads to roll? Will he further assure the House that he believes that the last thing that the CQC needs is more change at the top?

[Earl Howe]

I agree fully with everything that the noble Baroness has said. We have in the CQC the right team to take it forward. They are very clear that there needs to be a complete refresh of the senior team where doubts emerge about the individuals concerned. We are already seeing a complete refresh of the board. I share her worry about the tabloid press and calls for heads to roll. Nevertheless, it is appropriate, in the particular context of Morecambe Bay, for there to be a close look at the role of certain individuals: exactly what they did, what they knew, when they knew it and whether what they did was either wrong morally or against the law.

[Baroness Emerton]

My Lords, I wish to refer to the introduction of a new, robust, single-failure regime for NHS hospitals. This will provide a more effective mechanism to address persistent failings in the quality of care, including the automatic suspension of trusts. As a nurse, I was trained to look at prevention rather than cure. Ought we to be looking at, and including in this, the preparation of trust boards, as well as the staff, looking across the consensus of the trust rather than concentrating on targets? It is often mentioned in reports that they do not look at the quality. We need to see a much more cohesive trust report.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, this is one of the reasons why the previous Government introduced quality accounts, which are becoming more and more sophisticated and which focus the minds of a board on quality of care. It is easy to give the impression that we want to introduce a punitive culture into the NHS: we do not. However, there should be sanctions in the background to back up any serious failings of care. That is broadly what Robert Francis was driving at in talking about fundamental standards below which no care provider should fall. The CQC will be consulting on those standards later in the year, but I take the noble Baroness’s point about trust boards. It remains within the powers and competence of Monitor to suspend trust boards, either in whole or in part, where concerns arise over the governance of an organisation. That is a drastic power to invoke and they can take measures which fall short of it where appropriate.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

My Lords, am I alone in being surprised that it should be necessary to have legislative change to secure a duty of candour? Does this mean that, in the absence of this change, the CQC has the right to tell lies?

My other question is on the inspection regime. I understand that a generic system used to work in the past, whereby somebody whose expertise was in dentistry was sent off to inspect an A&E department. Who was responsible for the decision to run the inspection regime in that way?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, there has never been a right to tell lies, either professionally or in statute. My noble friend is right that we should be shocked that it is necessary to put in legislation that there has to be a statutory duty of candour. Candour has been part and parcel of the ethical framework for professionals in the health and care sector for many years. It is a sad reflection on those involved in the events at Mid Staffs and Morecombe Bay that we should be thinking in these terms at all, but we must, because unless we do we lay ourselves open to matters being brushed under the carpet, as they have been in these cases.

The inspections themselves have not been generic: it is the skills on the part of the inspectors that were considered to be adequate as those individuals were deployed generically. That decision was taken very early on when the CQC first came into being in 2009. We now think, as does the CQC, that that was wrong and that skills should be altogether more specialist.

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

As someone who lives in the catchment area of Barrow-in-Furness hospital, I have followed the story very closely. Does the Minister agree that, while we are discussing the cover-up by the CQC today, it in turn was investigating shortcomings by what was presumably the previous management of Morecambe Bay hospitals? Did he see the very pointed quote yesterday in the other place by the MP for Barrow-in-Furness, John Woodcock, who has done so much in this? He quoted the report as saying that there could be a “broader and ongoing cover-up”. Can he give the House an assurance that any investigation will not stop at the CQC but will look at the main cause of the disturbance and Mr Titcombe’s complaint initially?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I can give that assurance. In part, we have the answers in the Grant Thornton report commissioned by the CQC on the actions that the CQC took or did not take. As I said in answer to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, it is reassuring that the chief executive of the CQC has undertaken to produce for the department within the next two months a report to provide assurance that any cover-up has been fully exposed and that we will learn fully not only the facts but the lessons that we can draw from them.

[Baroness Wall of New Barnet]

I thank the noble Earl for repeating the Statement. It has caused quite a stir. My worry is two-fold. First, we had a big reaction to what happened at Mid Staffs, and now we have this. I would want us to be very careful not to become desensitised by some of these things—I do not mean in this House, but elsewhere.

I will pick up on the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, and agree with her totally. As chairman of Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust, I find it bewildering that, never mind any cover-up at the CQC, the board was not aware of those tragic deaths of mothers and babies. Certainly, in my trust that would absolutely be reported, both through the quality and safety committee that deals with what are called SUIs, or serious untoward incidents, and from the board itself. It would be helpful, as has been suggested, that the inquiry goes a bit further than just the CQC.

[Earl Howe]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. In fact, the trust has taken significant action in response to the concerns raised by the CQC and Monitor. In addition to responding specifically to the three warning notices issued by the CQC, there have been significant leadership changes at the trust. Sir David Henshaw was appointed as interim chair and Eric Morton as interim chief executive. The trust appointed four new non-executive directors and a new chief operating officer and recruited a new obstetric consultant and additional midwives. There have been other appointments as well. It has established a programme management office, as requested by Monitor, to oversee the implementation of programmes of work to bring about lasting improvements across the trust—and it has recruited a number of posts to the programme office to take that work forward. So I am encouraged that it is taking the position as seriously as it should in the circumstances and that, again, there is a refreshed team at the top of that organisation.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

Very often, when we have these inquiries, they are initiated not so much by the people who work within the trusts but by members of the public who feel very concerned about the quality of care being given within a hospital or service. Very often, those people who bring up these concerns, who are dubbed colloquially as whistleblowers, get very victimised by other people within the population but also within the hospital. Is there any support or help that we can give those people who bring to the attention of the NHS some of the problems that exist?

[Earl Howe]

My noble friend raises a key issue, which successive Governments have wrestled with. We all know how life works. Whistleblowers are treated badly because their message is often very uncomfortable. That is why local Healthwatch could potentially be a very important part of the puzzle here, by ensuring that people have a place to go to that they can trust and that can raise concerns without necessarily naming the person who has initiated those concerns.

More and more, we need to encourage providers of care to take ownership of their performance. They have to be candid with themselves and accept criticism where it is laid. Boards of directors have to look systematically and regularly at the complaints made against them—whether rightly or wrongly—to make sure that they are as open as possible with themselves. Only by instilling a culture of that kind can we move forward.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords—

[Baroness Northover]

I am afraid we are out of time.

Schools: Bullying

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Motion to Take Note

12:26

Moved By

[Baroness Brinton]

That this House takes note of the level of education support and mental health provision available to children who are severely bullied at school.

[Baroness Brinton]

My Lords, I am very honoured to be able to move that this House takes note of the very difficult problems facing severely bullied children, particularly of how they are able to learn and to get help with any mental health issues they face as they recover. I look forward to contributions from noble Lords today, many of whom have considerable knowledge and interest in this area. I am particularly looking forward to hearing the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Truro as he makes his maiden speech. I declare my interest as the co-chair of the All-Party Group on Bullying and as a patron of the Red Balloon Learner Centres, a charity that works with severely bullied children.

Any head teacher who tells you with confidence that there is no bullying in his or her school is deluded. Bullying, as with any abuse of power, will always be with us. What we need to do as parents, educators, friends and family is to be alert and work with both bullies and the bullied as early as possible to recognise the bullying as it starts, and to work to change behaviour.

I am sorry to say that many people think that too much fuss is made of bullying and that children should just learn to cope with it. Today’s debate is not about the minor tiffs that all children go through, learning about relationships, power and listening to each other. It is about the children who are so severely bullied that it is having a catastrophic effect on their lives—to the extent that some children kill themselves—and about what we do as a society to respond to this problem.

First, let us clarify what we are talking about here. The definition of bullying is aggressive behaviour that is intended to cause distress or harm, involves an imbalance of power or strength between aggressor and victim, and commonly occurs repeatedly over time. Children severely affected by it miss school for long periods of time, often self-excluding due to the trauma caused by the bullying.

This image of self-excluding may seem odd to those who do not know about it. I will tell your Lordships about a time when I was standing in a primary school playground with a head teacher. We had talked about her early recognition and intervention techniques, but she wanted to show me the practical effect of bullying on a youngster. This child, no more than eight years old, was standing on the edge of the playground. He refused eye contact with any of the children and, when their play moved near him, he sidled round the edge of the playground as far away as he could. The head told me that he had arrived from another school and was finding all social relationships very difficult following bullying elsewhere. He did not want his parents to intervene with the school because every time they had reported it in the past, the bullying had got worse. Even worse for him, his previous school had told him that he was behaving like a victim. This head understood that he needed intensive support, which she had put in place, including staff members keeping an eye out for him and a safe place inside if he felt he could not bear to be in the playground. This child was heading towards a classic downward spiral. His concentration had gone; understandably, he was not learning; and it was going to take many months to start building him up again. At least he had parents who had taken action and a new school that understood the problem.

For too many children, help comes too late. Ayden Olson took his life aged 14 earlier this year. His mum, Shy Keenan, wants action to ensure that it never happens again. She said:

“Our wonderful 14 year-old son Ayden died on the 14th of March 2013—his spirit defeated, he was bullied to death at school and driven ... out of pain and despair ... to take his own life. We miss him so much. Our hearts just ache for him and as we try to adjust to a life without him, we have committed to carrying his dreams of bully free schools ahead with Ayden’s Law”.

Her campaign, with the charity BeatBullying and the Sun newspaper, is an outstanding example of how we need to change the culture surrounding bullying. Otherwise, even more children will die. However, Ayden is not the first; nor, indeed, is this the first campaign. Other recent tragedies include Aaron Dugmore. He hanged himself at home after relentless bullying. At nine years old, he is Britain’s second youngest suicide victim of bullying. Other cases are Natasha MacBryde, who jumped in front of a train because she was being bullied about her parents’ divorce, and Sam Leeson, whom internet bullies drove to suicide because of his taste in music and love of fashion.

Research already shows that more than 16,000 children a year are so severely bullied that they cannot face school, and it is estimated that a shocking 44% of suicides of children aged 10 to 14 have occurred at least in part because of bullying. I support much of what Ayden’s law seeks to achieve, including compulsory family intervention and children, teachers and social workers all having anti-bullying training. The model, Jodie Marsh, who was herself severely bullied at school, has worked with anti-bullying campaigner, Alex Holmes, to celebrate the good practice at some of our schools. She went to Springwell College in Staveley, Derbyshire, which has 25 anti-bullying ambassadors. They are now spreading that work to other schools. A TV programme broadcast a couple of months ago showed what they were doing with Carlton Community College in Barnsley to make sure that children themselves change the culture.

We need to really look at our schools and at educational support for these badly bullied children. One child described how,

“actually going to the school campus was terrifying”.

They want to learn, to have friends and to be in school, but it is literally too dangerous for them even to try to go and learn. How do schools handle children who refuse to go to school? Believe it or not, some are sent to specialist alternative provision known as pupil referral units. These units are designed for children whose behaviour is so unacceptable that they cannot remain in their mainstream school, and so often they are the bullies that these children desperately need to get away from. I shall say briefly here that we also need to address the behaviour of bullies, and I know that my noble friend Lady Walmsley will cover this in her speech.

When schools are in denial about bullying, they will not pay for alternative provision that may cost more than the school receives for educating that pupil. I am afraid that they often keep the child on the school roll—and therefore receive the government funding for that child—and say to the parent that the family could educate the child at home until things get better. Many parents do not feel that this is the right route for them, especially if they have to give up work to do it, thus costing the state even more.

Often, children need specialist support for only a limited period, and organisations such as Red Balloon have an excellent record in getting bullied students back into mainstream education. In Red Balloon’s case, it is 95%. Will the Minister make it absolutely clear that severely bullied children will receive the funding required to recover and continue their education, and that the schools will not keep the money if a pupil transfers to alternative provision or sits at home for months on end?

One young student I know from Red Balloon arrived there aged 13, having been bullied about the death of her single mother. That is shocking. She was unable to concentrate on anything, and her reading age was estimated at nine years. However, within two terms, she was reading—and enjoying—Great Expectations on her own. The intensive therapy alongside excellent education transformed her life but, for most, many schools do not even recognise that these children have special needs.

I remind the House that the definition of special educational needs is having learning difficulties that make it harder for children to learn or access education than most children of the same age. Surely severely bullied children fit that description. They need this formal label to help to create the package that is going to help them to return to their mainstream education, whether it is in school or college. It is evident to those who work with these children that severe bullying is, at the very least, a temporary special educational need that will persist and worsen without intervention. Will the Minister consider specifically adding severely bullied children to the category of those with special educational needs?

The Government are rightly concerned about the achievements of children who fall through the net. Students who end up in pupil referral units do not perform well. Less than 1% gain 5 A* to C GCSEs. That should be compared with specialist intervention at places such as Red Balloon, where the figure is 75%. Therefore, I further ask the Minister to ensure that alternative provision for bullied children is made available that compares performance not with the mainstream education system but with other children who also face major difficulties, whether the comparison is with pupil referral units or even with the data for looked-after children. It is not fair to set a benchmark for these children that does not recognise the trauma they are facing.

The reality of what these children and their parents have to deal with is stark, especially when schools refuse to face up to their responsibilities. A 13 year-old boy in year eight was threatened by his school and the education welfare team, which said that he had to come to school despite severe bullying because, if he did not, his mother would be taken to court and might go to jail. That is shockingly cruel. Schools should have to be responsible for the consequences of bullying in exactly the same way that employers have to provide a safe working environment for their employees.

Mental health problems are exacerbated when these children are made to feel that it is all their fault and that they are letting down their families. Giving them special educational needs status will ensure that schools can more easily work with GPs and specifically with child and adolescent mental health services. The latter is already very difficult to get referrals to, but a statement will provide the key to unlocking that urgent help.

The National Union of Students has surveyed school students, and its mental distress survey illuminated a lack of support and advice opportunities for students: 64% of respondents said that they did not use or have access to formal services for advice and support in relation to their mental distress; and 26% did not tell anyone about their feelings of mental distress. Evidence from this survey shows that levels of educational support and mental health provision are a concern not only in schools but in colleges and universities.

Bullying and harassment are demonstrable sources of mental distress for further and higher education students, too, and opportunities for support and advice are either unavailable or, worse, inadequately signposted. Can the Minister reassure the House that signposting for support and advice for school, and education beyond, are clear and evident to any student and their family in distress?

During this speech, I have referred to a number of different types of bullying. I have not touched on cyberbullying, which is a growing and insidious form. It needs to be part of the debate we are having as a nation at the moment about the use of the internet and social networking. It is all too easy to post something on Facebook that can cause lasting damage, and the viral nature of social networking means that things can escalate out of control very rapidly.

Reasons for bullying seem to grow. Schools pride themselves on their equality and diversity policies, yet race, homophobic and disability bullying remain. Schools must tackle the unacceptable culture that even thinks it is okay to taunt, let alone bully, someone because of their race, disability or sexual identity. There is also a disturbing increase in physical attack and even rape as a part of bullying.

It is our duty in society to help these 16,000 children who fall through the cracks in our education system. By giving children a statement and proper funding, we are investing in a transformation of their wrecked lives, even if it is only at very few of the schools in our country. Many are becoming inspirational champions as they recover. Let us hope that they become future leaders. We need to empower those schools that do not understand this to help build a network of support for severely bullied children. The country has instilled its trust in our ability to restore hope to these children. We cannot allow success so far to impair our ability to make our country a better place. We must ensure that there is not one more wrecked life; not one more suicide. Imagine if it were your child or your grandchild. You would want better.

12:40

[Lord Lexden]

My Lords, it is both a pleasure and a privilege to make a short contribution to this debate, initiated with great skill and in the most moving fashion by my noble friend Lady Brinton, who speaks with such tremendous authority on this grave social and educational issue—authority drawn from her patient, dedicated and successful work in combating it in practice on the ground.

School bullies are sad individuals, cowards every one of them, who gain satisfaction and pleasure from showing unkindness to others—a reversal of the right and proper order of things. Unkindness leading to persecution can be such that, in some cases, it leads—as we have heard—to suicide. My noble friend spoke particularly movingly on that point. For far too long, indeed over generations, there were in our country too many weak and callous teachers in uncompassionate schools who did little or nothing to tackle the disfiguring phenomenon of bullying in their midst. Today, however, they can no longer evade their basic responsibilities, which have been clearly defined in law, endorsed by all political parties and by successive governments.

This Government have shown themselves to be particularly sensitive to widespread concern—reflected in my noble friend’s important Motion today—about the extent of bullying prevalent in our schools. That is underlined by the deeply disturbing facts and statistics that my noble friend referred to. The Government have consistently shown their responsiveness to well founded anxiety. In 2011, they brought up to date the anti-bullying advice drawn up to enable all schools to tackle bullying effectively. Teachers have been given new powers to tackle the hideous new phenomenon of cyberbullying, for instance by searching for and, if necessary, deleting inappropriate images on mobile telephones. Very importantly, the Government have laid a requirement on Ofsted to take account of behaviour and well-being, including the incidence of bullying in schools. Most recently, funds have been made available to enable four specialist organisations to work with schools in exploring new, innovative ways of tackling the scourge of bullying. These points, I hope, bring some measure of comfort to my noble friend, while also underlining the need for her continuing commitment to securing further progress.

The Government deserve great credit for extending and enhancing the national framework through which bullying can be confronted and reduced. However, particularly after hearing my noble friend’s speech, we all now yearn for results—for tumbling rather than rising statistics. That can be the only truly satisfactory measure of success.

I will illustrate the point by turning to an aspect of the issue that has always been a particular concern and anxiety to me personally: homophobic bullying. Last year, Stonewall published results of research carried out on its behalf by Cambridge University, involving a survey of some 1,600 lesbian, gay and bisexual young people in our schools. Some 55% had experienced homophobic bullying in schools and 99% had heard homophobic language. It is not surprising, and confirms the other evidence that my noble friend has given us, that this bullying had a marked adverse effect on young people’s attainment, health and well-being. Three in five bullied pupils said that it had a negative impact on their schoolwork. One in three bullied gay young people had considered changing their future educational plans because of the bullying. Nearly a quarter of gay young people had thought of attempting suicide. More than one half had harmed themselves. Polling of more than 2,000 primary and secondary school teachers by YouGov, published in 2009, showed a similar picture. Nine in 10 secondary school teachers said that they had witnessed homophobic bullying. Worryingly, half of secondary school teachers who were aware of homophobic bullying said that the vast majority of incidents go unreported. There is a further important point to be made in this connection. Stonewall’s research into homophobic hate crime in 2008 found that three in five hate incidents are committed by people under the age of 25, highlighting the transition from homophobic bullying in schools to homophobic hate crimes in local communities.

In this area, as in others, the Government have shown commendable resolution and determination. They made tackling homophobic bullying a priority in both the coalition agreement and the 2010 schools White Paper. They have strongly encouraged schools to seek advice and support from Stonewall. Ofsted inspectors are advised to ask pupils about the use of homophobic language in their schools and whether or not they learn about gay people in the curriculum.

Perhaps the Government will now consider taking further steps. For example, through the National College for Teaching and Leadership, they could seek to ensure that high-quality training on preventing and tackling homophobic bullying is part of all teachers’ initial training. They could help schools further to share best practice and to learn from each other in this area, in particular encouraging academy chains to provide such opportunities among their schools. The Government could also ensure that free schools and new academies recognise the importance of combating homophobic bullying and supporting gay young people when establishing policy and procedures. As president of the Independent Schools Council, and its former general secretary, I also recognise that action in these matters should not be confined to the maintained sector. It is needed in all our country’s schools.

Bullying in schools causes serious, sometimes terrible, problems, both social and educational, for those who experience it at the hands of the cowards who practise it. The harmful effects can last a lifetime. Our duty is clear: to do all that we can to help extirpate it.

12:48

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, not only for calling this debate but for her brilliant and comprehensive speech, as well as her efforts on behalf of children. She drew together many of the issues which we all believe to be a terrible, often hidden, problem for many children. Any bullying can become severe bullying. Prevention, as well as dealing with the issue, is vital. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, for his passionate plea to combat homophobic bullying.

I have just come from a meeting to launch the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Children’s new report on an inquiry into what opportunities children think they should have. I declare an interest as the chair of that group. In that inquiry, during which we consulted children and those who work with them, children’s rights came across very strongly. This debate reminds us that the children we are discussing are having their rights eroded in a very sinister way.

Many years ago, as a teacher, I was aware that some children were not only being discriminated against but were being bullied. I recall how difficult it was to identify the problem and to deal with it. Bullying is very difficult to prove and it is very difficult to change the behaviour. I recall that children might be bullied perhaps because they were clever, not clever enough or had a physical feature such as an accent, a limp or red hair. The schools I taught in had a proportion of children who were black or Asian, which could be a factor.

It is even worse now with e-mails, texts and so on. It is clear that there is the same old problem. Many children—I believe that now it is about 28%—do not want to talk about being bullied either to their parents or the school. Parents and schools often are in denial about children who are being bullied or children who bully. I believe, as I suspect do many people, that bullies also need help and that they exhibit behaviour that may damage their lives. All that is even more terrible when there is severe bullying. The All-Party Parliamentary Group on Bullying states that children who have suffered severe bullying may develop temporary special educational needs, which was referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton.

In schools, teachers also may be victims or perpetrators. We are now going back an awful long way but I have never forgotten a friend of mine at school who was picked on—that is what it was called—by a teacher because she was overweight, middle class and very clever. She said that she thought many times about ways to kill herself. The problem was resolved because I and other friends told another teacher.

Extremely severe bullying, as has been said, can have tragic consequences in the deaths of young people. Today, I am very grateful for the many organisations which exist to combat bullying and improve the lives of young people. Many of these organisations send us their experiences and their concerns. It is also gratifying that Ofsted now comments on bullying in schools.

From what we know and continue to learn, it is clear that bullying has an impact on the physical and mental health of children—the more severe, the greater the impact. It is also clear that bullying may have a profound impact on achievement in school and on the whole life of a child both immediately and in the future. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, spoke of the Red Balloon Learning Centres group, which estimates that 16,000 young people may be absent from school at any one time due to bullying. That is a shocking figure and these children may be treated as if they are just truanting. What impact on the self-worth of a child must bullying have? Without self-worth, attendance and academic, as well as social, competence may be severely affected. The Anti-Bullying Alliance reports that more than 61% of children reporting to child and adolescent mental health services are being bullied. The NSPCC’s Childline estimates that 38% of young people have been affected by cyberbullying.

I want to dwell mainly on what can be done to either prevent bullying or tackle it before it becomes dangerous. Parents are key. The National Centre for Social Research points out that children being bullied at the age of 14 or 15 were much less likely to be bullied at 16 if parents had reported the bullying. But, as I have said, and as we know, parents often do not know what is going on and friends—if the child being bullied has friends—also find it difficult. Bullies can be very powerful, particularly when they are in a gang.

I want to look at how we can prevent bullying in schools, starting with the importance of immediate action. I have to say, and the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy reaffirms this, that having a school counsellor is one of the most immediate and accessible ways of offering support. Sadly, provision of school counselling services is not universal. It should be and I wonder whether any schools are using the pupil premium to supply such services. That would be money well spent. Perhaps I may ask the Minister how many school counsellors there are working and by what means they are paid.

I move on, inevitably, to personal, social and health education in schools. When will the Government accept that every child, in whatever type of school, should be entitled to protection and encouragement from a solid programme of personal, social and health education? That would be much less difficult than the Government think. We have had this debate before and no doubt will have it again. A school policy on behaviour and bullying is part of PSHE. Many schools have such policies, although Kidscape asserts that some schools are reluctant to discuss their policies. I cannot think why: perhaps they do not have one.

In a school where I was a governor, the children helped to develop the policy. School councils can help to monitor behaviour policies. Class representatives on school councils often know what is going on before a teacher and may have suggestions to repair the damage. One school, Goose Green in east London, came to speak to the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Children. The teachers and children spoke eloquently about their experiences of personal, social and health education and of a friendship system where a child can go to another child for help and support, which is just brilliant. I wish that Mr Gove could have been there.

Personal, social and health education is not just a woolly concept about being nice; it should be rigorous with structures and policies to help children gain information at the appropriate age, develop the skills and confidence to use such information, and develop respect for themselves and others. I hope that the Government will provide a more encouraging lead on this. I believe that there are others in the Chamber today who think the same way.

School policies support a positive school ethos and are not just about mistreating others. Personal, social and health education is about what happens not just in science lessons where reproduction may be taught, even if it is not human reproduction, but also in English lessons, history, art, sport and so on where children can discuss relationships and reflect on their behaviour. PSHE may happen in lessons on topics that are not necessarily carried out by teachers but by special visitors, such as St John Ambulance, the school nurse, scouts and guides, the police, parliamentarians and so on. There do not have to be specialist teachers but the school has to be organised to make use of such visitors. I know of one school which invited a school counsellor and a child who had been bullied to a lesson to talk about their experiences. It was a very powerful experience for all those people in the classroom.

That is preventive work. If a school discovers bullying, the staff policy must kick in fast. The incidents need to be analysed, solutions sought and, if necessary, help found. It is not enough simply to punish. As I said earlier, an elected school council may be able to help, as well as counsellors, parents and a strong school ethos. There clearly is a problem here. For children who are bullied, it is disruptive and a terrifying problem. I have suggested two things that could help schools to help children; namely, school counsellors and a programme of personal, social and health education. I look forward to the Minister’s comments.

12:58

[The Lord Bishop of Truro]

My Lords, I am honoured to be here and I thank noble Lords for their welcome. I also thank Black Rod and his staff for their marvellous help and support. I regard it as a privilege to be a Member of this House and look forward to playing my part. I thank in particular the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, for initiating this debate, and for her powerful and passionate speech. I am very grateful to be able to make my maiden speech in this debate.

As Bishop of Truro I am fortunate to work across the county of Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly. Last week I was on the Isles of Scilly visiting the Five Islands school, which is an all-through age five to 16 school. I spend a lot of my time across the diocese visiting schools and always enjoy engaging with staff and students. It is helpful for a bishop in the Church of England sometimes to be in places where the majority of people are relatively young.

As I am sure that your Lordships are aware, Cornwall is a beautiful part of the country. If this were not my maiden speech, and therefore non-controversial, I might have gone further and said that it was the most beautiful part of the country, but I will refrain. I am sure that noble Lords are also aware that it is one of the poorest parts of the country, with areas of real deprivation and facing major problems of rural isolation, low wages and, sadly, among many of the young, low aspiration. Bullying and mental health concerns can be compounded by living in rural areas.

I am delighted to say that much of my work is responding to invitations from the wider community to visit and learn more about what is happening right across the county. In this regard I am always concerned to hear of areas of life where there are real pressures. I know, sadly, that many people in the county suffer from various forms of mental illness and do not always have access to the support structures and services that they need.

As well as being the Bishop of Truro—here I declare an interest—I am chairman of the trustees of the Children’s Society. Many noble Lords will know that this is a national charity, caring for the most deprived young people across the country. I will reinforce a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Massey. One of the key features of our work is that we listen to the voice of children and young people.

In this debate I want to make the point that it is essential that we advocate for those who are often unable to advocate for themselves. Children who are either affected by mental health conditions or are being bullied are not in a good place to have their voice heard. It is important that we find ways to do just that. As is evident from the report by the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Bullying, many children who are bullied feel isolated from their peers. This can have a profoundly damaging impact on their well-being at that time and over the rest of their lives.

There are two points that I would like to make about children who are particularly vulnerable to bullying. First, children living in poverty face a number of issues with bullying. This can be due to lacking things that their peers may have, such as not being able to go to the cinema, or to a friend’s birthday party because they cannot afford a present. I underline what the noble Baronesses, Lady Brinton and Lady Massey, said about understanding child poverty in terms of the children’s own understanding of what it is like to live in poverty. Children can miss out on school trips, or not have the same basic material goods that other children have. This will have an impact on a child’s sense of self-worth. They are therefore more vulnerable to bullying and socialised isolation than their peers.

If not administered correctly, things such as free school meals can serve to highlight differences between children. In many schools children on free school meals are not easily identifiable, which reduces the risks of stigma. However, I am concerned that nearly half of secondary schools do not have cashless systems, meaning that those on free school meals may be singled out. My first point is to highlight the need to listen to the voice of children in poverty and note the implications on their lives of being bullied.

My second point relates to young carers. The latest census statistics reveal that there are 166,363 young carers in England, compared to around 139,000 in 2001. This is likely to be the tip of the iceberg, as many young carers remain hidden from official sight for a host of reasons, including family loyalty, stigma or indeed bullying. As well as having the potential to suffer stigma and bullying, young carers are particularly vulnerable because their caring responsibilities can have a severe impact on their school life and long-term outcomes.

We know that one in 12 young cares is caring for more than 15 hours per week. Around one in 20 misses school because of their caring responsibilities. Young carers are more likely than the national average to be not in education, employment or training—one of the NEETs—between the ages of 16 and 19. That is why I welcome the Children’s Minister’s announcement last week that the Government will be looking at how the legislation for young carers might be changed so that rights and responsibilities are clearer to young carers and practitioners alike.

It is important that the Care Bill that covers the adults’ legislation around social care, and the Children and Families Bill, work together to better identify and support young carers and their families. Schools and teachers can play a vital role in doing this. Schools also play an important role in promoting positive attitudes towards young carers and their families to help mitigate the impact of stigma, discrimination and bullying. It is important that children who struggle in school get the support and help that they need, and this includes mental health support. I fear that the provision of mental health support and the structures in place are not sufficient for the needs of young people and children.

I also want to ask if it is right that we should allow young people to be carers, which inevitably limits their childhood and opens them to a range of potential problems, not least bullying and missing out on education. These put added strain on their mental health. I dare wonder whether society is in danger of being the bully in allowing young people to be carers. What about the rights of the children and young people themselves?

In conclusion, I welcome this debate on such an important matter. I am glad to be able to speak as a bishop and as chairman of the trustees of the Children’s Society. I am especially concerned about children living in poverty who are vulnerable to bullying and to mental health concerns and who need advocates on their behalf. Equally in need of advocates are the young carers, who again are open to being bullied. I question whether we should not take more seriously the issue of whether we can do more to allow such children and young people to have their right to a childhood. I look forward to the contributions of other Members and hearing from the Minister about the work that Government are doing to support those children who are indeed being bullied at school.

13:08

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend Lady Brinton for the opportunity to debate this difficult issue. Mental health problems in school have been on the radar of the NHS for well over 15 years. Similarly, bullying, once thought of as a brutal rite of passage, has become a major concern for schools and society at large.

Before I develop my thoughts, it gives me enormous pleasure to congratulate the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Truro, my own bishop—Bishop Tim as he is affectionately known in Cornwall—on his maiden speech. I know that he does not shun challenge or difficult issues. I welcome another voice in your Lordships’ House to speak up for Cornwall, where a chocolate-box image often seen by the majority hides real poverty and inequalities. I would expect him, as chairman of the Children’s Society, to be well informed on this issue and I was not disappointed. I welcome his concern for child carers, and at some time I will talk to him about adult carers for children, because there are similar issues to be concerned about there.

I also congratulate the right reverend Prelate on his Google footprint. I came to do the speech following his quite late, so needed to find out more about him than I knew—and which perhaps he would not want to be shared with the rest of the House—in a hurry. I resorted to Google. His footprint is almost non-existent, and there few in public life who can say that. I had to resort to Cornish contacts.

He is universally liked and respected for his commitment to working with the sizeable Methodist community in Cornwall. He has a liking for ham and eggs and is the doting grandfather of twins. One thing I learnt that really surprised me is that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Truro was schooled in Devon—and not only Devon but Plymouth, over the Tamar. However, that secret was well kept and I shall not revisit the boundary debates of a year or so ago.

The links between mental health and bullying can go in two directions. There is evidence that children who have mental health problems are often bullied, and children can be so consumed by bullying that they develop mental health problems. It goes both ways. Both problems need dealing with in school, as others have spoken about in detail.

I will address the issue of health interventions, whether through the NHS or through other services. Before children and young people can get support and help—I am talking about the whole age range in schools—they need to be identified. Current statistics suggest that one in 10 children and young people aged between five and 16 suffers from a diagnosable mental health disorder. That is three children in every class.

Schools need to train staff in how to identify those with mental illness and those who are being bullied. This is a priority for all schools, whether they are academies, private schools, free schools or maintained schools. I would be grateful if the Minister would indicate in his reply the proportion of schools that ensure that their staff are given training in identifying signs of mental health problems in children.

The lifetime cost of a single case of untreated childhood conduct disorder is approximately £150,000. Early intervention for young people with emotional, behavioural or social difficulties can help prevent mental health problems becoming more serious or developing in the first place. Early intervention saves money but, as we have already heard, it also saves lives.

A survey conducted for the Red Balloon learning centres found that 18% of school absences arose from bullying. The number of young people aged 11 to 15 who were away from school was estimated by the study to be around 16,500, for which bullying was the main reason. Bullying can lead to a child suffering from myriad psychological issues such as post-traumatic stress disorder, eating disorders or obsessive compulsive disorders, all of which can result in extreme anxiety and social avoidance.

According to YoungMinds, the Department for Education message to schools is that their focus should be on educational attainment; it does not consider health and emotional well-being as one of its core priorities. Over the past year we have seen what has happened to hospitals, and their patients, which have concentrated on targets to the exclusion of all else.

Having identified and had diagnosed a mental health problem, treatment can be difficult locally. However, the coalition’s localism and decentralisation policy initiatives have allowed many heads to use their new-found autonomy to commission their own mental health services, which, in combination with the voluntary sector, have helped deliver early-intervention mental health support for young people in schools. I would be interested to know how many head teachers have used those freedoms to do that. If the information is not readily available, I would be grateful if the Minister would write to me.

The coalition has recognised this as a problem and last year announced extra investment in the Children and Young People’s Improving Access to Psychological Therapies project, which works with existing CAMHS in the NHS, the voluntary sector and others to help improve and change mental health services and make them better for children and young people. The Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, and former care Minister, Paul Burstow, announced that the ambitious Children and Young People’s IAPT programme will receive an extra investment of up to £22 million over the next three years. This is in addition to the £8 million a year for four years that had previously been secured. These new resources will be used to extend the geographical reach of the collaboratives and to extend training to two further therapies that address depression, eating disorders, self-harm and conduct problems with ADHD. This is to be welcomed. The focus of the project is to help build upon more collaborative relationships between children, young people, families and therapists through the use of frequent outcome monitoring, extending participation in service design and feedback.

Additionally, Care and Support Minister Norman Lamb has just announced an investment of almost £2 million in Children and Young People’s IAPT sites to buy handheld computers such as laptops, tablets and iPads. This equipment will be used in existing IAPT sites to enable young people, parents and practitioners to record session-by-session outcome monitoring, allowing instant feedback to be used in therapy sessions.

Acting early to help children with mental health problems can prevent a lifetime of suffering, as half of those with lifelong mental health problems first experience symptoms before the age of 14. This technology helps children and young people see how their treatment is progressing and, where treatment is not going as well as it could, practitioners can change their approach to get the best results. Children and young people have said how much it helps them to see how their treatment is going. It is interesting here to reflect on the generational change. Young people welcome these kinds of interventions, but their parents and grandparents possibly would find them threatening and not of help.

The Red Balloon centres and Kids Company do wonderful work with children in inner-city settings—all of which is welcome—but this is not yet available all across England. Rural areas fare particularly badly. In the moorlands of the north-west, the north-east and the south-west, services are remote and access is difficult. Will the Minister tell the House the latest estimate of children and young people who are not yet reached by NHS child and adolescent services, and what is the percentage reduction across England since 2010?

We now recognise the problem, which when I trained to teach some 30-odd years ago we did not, and we now know how to address the problem, which 15 years or so ago we did not, so, in part, we are doing really well. We know that funds are tight but, until every teacher has received training in recognising mental health problems and every bullied child receives some level of mental health support as appropriate to their need, we not only fail them but we lay down trouble for the future and we fail society, too.

13:17

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I, too, add my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, for this debate on bullying and the extent, or lack, of educational support that still exists for children who are severely bullied at school. I also congratulate the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Truro. I am particularly glad that he mentioned not only carers but school governors and their important role, because I think there should be someone on a governing body who keeps an overall eye on bullying.

Like one or two other speakers, I wish to concentrate my remarks on the importance of a high-level preventive strategy for this damaging and growing phenomenon, which has become a far too obvious part of each individual’s life, whether they are a child at school or an adult in a job. As we have heard already, it is the most vulnerable members of the community who are most likely to be targeted.

As I said, the title of the debate points to the level of educational support provided for those who are severely bullied at school, with the implication that it is probably inadequate. I am sure it is, even though we are all beginning to be much more aware of the need. In any event, is there not a necessity for rather more than the required support? Should it not be the Government’s responsibility, if necessary by education, to see all schools not only providing support for those being bullied but having a strict policy to ensure that there is no bullying?

Five years-old is the official age at which a child is required to attend school, so that is clearly a good time to insist on acceptable and respectable behaviour not just of pupils towards their teachers but of children towards each other. I suspect that there are already a number of examples of good practice of how this is being achieved in our schools. The only problem is that they are insufficiently publicised. I remember attending a meeting several years ago when one such successful example was being discussed. Where better to start than at the moment when a child arrives in school? What unfolded seems a pretty good way to provide an early intervention exercise that would have an excellent chance of working. In this group of schools, every new pupil is given a slightly older mentor whose duty is to settle the child into its new surroundings and environment. How well the child does will affect the number of brownie points that the mentor gets, so both the new pupil and mentor gain.

Another area where a clear need has been shown, and has been mentioned many times, is in Red Balloon’s work with children who have special needs. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, on her involvement with that organisation, which does some incredibly good work. I thought the case studies that they included—I had a few moments to scan some of them yesterday—were extremely interesting. Quite clearly it is not only at the very beginning of your life and at school that problems occur that can lead to bullying and huge periods of isolation. Those case stories showed a high level of success when places such as those provided by Red Balloon offer support to cope with this situation. It would have taken some time to establish what was really required in those cases, but at least it was established, whereas in other situations in other parts of the country I am afraid the local authority did not want to know, nothing was done and two or three years went by before any notice was taken. That is horrendous because that really is the end of the possibilities for that child.

Somebody also mentioned the importance of learning about the background and history of that family. Again we come back to the early intervention side. I wish we could encourage really effective, early intervention. Frank Field and all our experts have educated us for so long on this issue. Yes, everybody has accepted it, and yes, everybody has contributed something, but I am afraid it needs far more resources to make it work really effectively and begin to show results.

I hope I will be encouraged by what the Minister tells us, but I really do think that a national strategy is what we need as a way forward.

13:24

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, I add my voice to all the requests my noble friend Lady Brinton made to the Government in her excellent speech. I declare my relevant non-pecuniary interests as an honorary fellow of UNICEF and as a patron of Red Balloon, and I pay tribute to Carrie Herbert and all her staff for the wonderful work that they do in getting children back into education.

I will start at the very beginning, which is a very good place to start, especially with bullying, because if there were no bullies there would be no problems with the education and mental health of bullied children. There would be no bullied children. I will therefore address the issue of prevention. Why do children bully others, and how can we stop them before they even start, because all severe bullying starts with mild bullying?

In my view, a bully is often someone who needs help himself or herself. In some cases, the bully has been a victim himself or is simply replicating learnt behaviour. A violent child often comes from a violent home. A child demonstrating inappropriate sexual behaviour may well have been abused. So while we are looking at the causes of bullying and how we can help the bullies to stop doing it, we are of course not ignoring bullied children; we are making life better for them by nipping it in the bud.

Learnt behaviour is a big factor, which is why parents should always be involved by schools dealing with bullies. However, I think many children bully because they lack self-confidence in some area of their lives, so they make up for it and make themselves feel better by making someone else feel worse. They feel powerless so they try to take power over others.

A guide from the Department for Education a few years ago suggested how children might react to bullying. It says:

“stay calm … and … confident … be firm … tell the bully to stop”.

That is easier said than done, but it becomes easier when children have developed their own self-confidence and a belief in their own self-worth. How do they get that? Ofsted identified the answer and published it in its 2012 report No Place for Bullying. It found that the schools that were most successful in preventing and tackling bullying were those that,

“identified the links between personal, social and health education, citizenship, religious education and other curriculum areas”,

and their anti-bullying programme. It is obvious to me that PSHE courses that build up children’s self-confidence and self-esteem will help the bullied students to “stay calm and confident” and will help those who might become bullies not to need to fill the gap in their own self-confidence by belittling others.

Ofsted also pointed to the need for good-quality teacher training and CPD to help staff to deal with situations that might arise. That is quite right, but it is important that staff identify bullying as a child protection issue, not just in relation to the bullied child but so that they will look at the underlying issues in the life of the bully. Domestic violence at home, drug and alcohol problems, neglect and a poor relationship with their parents can all be contributory factors. The child may never have developed the ability to empathise with others, possibly because of attachment problems early in life. For reasons to do with his background, he may have great difficulty forming relationships. Perhaps he has never been loved.

So, apart from good quality PSHE in all schools, which noble Lords know I always advocate, I recommend a programme that has had a great beneficial effect in all the schools that have used it, so much so that it is rapidly spreading across the country, particularly in Scotland. It is called Roots of Empathy and was developed in Canada by a wonderful woman called Mary Gordon, who ought to get an honour. As Mary herself says:

“Roots of Empathy is an evidence-based classroom program that has shown significant effect in reducing levels of aggression among school children while raising social and emotional competence and increasing empathy”.

Her aim is to change the world one child at a time. If a child has empathy, why would he ever bully another child? The strong evidence from schools is that this programme improves behaviour and reduces bullying.

The first Roots of Empathy classes in England began in October last in 14 primary schools in the south London boroughs of Lewisham and Croydon, although it had been going for some time in Scotland. The classes are co-ordinated by the Pre-school Learning Alliance, with support from the WAVE Trust and funding from the Big Lottery. How does it work? The basis of it is that, following preparation by the teacher, a mother or father brings his or her young baby into the primary classroom and the baby becomes the “teacher”. Indeed, he wears a cute little T-shirt that tells us he is the teacher. The children sit around the baby in a circle and are asked to observe his behaviour, interact with him and comment on how he is feeling. The whole thing is very structured and there is plenty of cross-curricular follow-up work. By interacting with a tiny vulnerable child in a controlled environment, the children go back to the beginning and learn how to empathise with others, understand their own feelings and why they sometimes feel sad or uncomfortable. All aggression is taken away and it is often amazing and very touching to discover what the children reveal about themselves and their home backgrounds.

The programme also gives the children a model of parenting which some of them never see at home. In Scotland, the programme is so popular that I believe it has now been introduced in two-thirds of all primary schools. The programme has now been extended to the early years and is called Seeds of Empathy. It is being piloted here in Lewisham, although it has been operating in Canada since 2005 and is being evaluated there. Seeds of Empathy, apart from helping children develop their social and emotional skills, also helps them develop positive attitudes to reading. It does not teach reading as such but uses stories to explore feelings, such as feeling grumpy or happy, and helps the children to be comfortable about expressing how they feel. The children observe how the baby’s capabilities develop from week to week and consider why his or her moods change and how that relates to their own moods.

Mary Gordon believes that the programme helps children develop their executive functioning skills, dealing with impulse, self-control, flexible thinking and decision-making. In this way, these toddlers are being prepared to benefit from their formal education a little way down the road. Having seen these programmes in action, it is hard to believe that any of the children will develop violent or disrespectful behaviour towards their peers. Respect is, of course, a key word in relation to bullying, and there is another programme that is highly successful in developing this, the UNICEF Rights Respecting Schools programme, about which I have spoken before. It is logical, is it not? If a child understands his own rights, he learns to understand that the other children in his school have the same rights and that these should be respected as much as he would wish his own rights to be respected. Therefore, a school that fosters this mutual respect usually does not have a major problem with bullying and has a structure for dealing with it, if it does arise.

Finally, I would like to mention counselling, as was mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Massey. When I visited a primary school in Beijing, I was surprised to be told that all Chinese primary schools have access to a school counsellor. Why should we not have that here too? I think that we need it since our children are often under great stress and really need help. Children need someone to talk to who will not be judgmental but will help them work out their own problems or direct them to other help. Some great organisations do this, such as Place2Be. If children are listened to, they feel valued. We know that if children do not feel valued, they sometimes strike out and that is what we want to avoid. It is striking that most of these counselling services help both the bullied and the bully. However, I know that schools struggle to find the money to introduce these programmes, so will my noble friend the Minister confirm that they could legitimately use some of the pupil premium money to do so as long as they can show that the programme helps to underpin the learning of children who attract that money to the school? Of course, I believe that it does. A child in fear is not a learning child and neither is a child who is angry, so again the same service helps both the victims and the perpetrators. Is not that unusual?

This matter boils down to the culture of the school and its duty of care to bullied children to ensure they get an education, but also to its duty of care to bullies to stop them ruining their own lives as well as those of others, because nobody loves a bully.

13:34

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, for tabling this debate. I also pay tribute to the passion and commitment she has shown in raising awareness and campaigning on these issues and to her forthright leadership of the all-party group.

I also congratulate the right reverend Prelate on his maiden speech. I am grateful for his emphasis on the stigma that can attach to children living in poverty and to young carers. He made powerful points on those issues. He has shown enormous compassion and wisdom on these issues and I hope he can be persuaded to join us in speaking up for young people’s needs in future debates.

I think we all share a common purpose in raising this issue. Anyone who has read the case studies and the media stories cannot help but be moved and saddened by the dire consequences for the happiness of young people if bullying is allowed to carry on unchecked. The fact that at a low level it appears to be so prevalent in schools—which should, after all, be providing a secure and nurturing learning environment—should be a wake-up call for everyone involved in education.

The Department for Education report which showed that 47% of children report being bullied at 14, 41% at 15 and 29% per cent at 16, is truly shocking. Many of those reported that bullying was not just a one-off incident but was ongoing, and for some of them it was an everyday occurrence. The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, rightly raised concerns about the prevalence of homophobic bullying, which, as he reported, is widespread. It is also distressing to hear that children with disabilities and special educational needs are three times as likely to be bullied, with verbal, emotional and physical bullying again being prevalent.

Meanwhile, as a number of noble Lords have commented, the dramatic rise of cyberbullying is finding new victims, with new vulnerabilities and opportunities for exploitation and abuse. Recent research has shown that nearly one in five young people have been victims of Facebook, internet or mobile phone bullying, with girls affected more than boys. Many of these children will slip under the radar. Their plight will never be drawn to the attention of anyone in authority and they will develop coping methodologies to survive, and as a result will never know the full impact on their confidence, self-worth and sense of well-being as they progress into adulthood.

We know that bullying is not a harmless rite of passage or an inevitable part of growing up but can have long-term consequences into adulthood. A recent study at the University of Warwick showed that children who are exposed to bullying during childhood are increasingly at risk of suffering psychiatric disorder in adulthood, regardless of whether they are the victims or the perpetrators. Victims display a higher level of agoraphobia, general anxiety and panic disorder, whereas bullies show a tendency to develop an anti-social personality disorder. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, rightly identified the need to break that cycle of bullying at an early age and the factors that lead children to bully. I was very interested to hear about the Roots of Empathy programme that she described in detail, which should be encouraged.

It appears that the problem is growing and that the onus on schools and local agencies to have a clear, firm policy in place is ever greater. So what needs to be done? At the outset, schools need to have a zero-tolerance policy towards bullying. There are simply too many examples of children or parents who have reported bullying to a teacher or head teacher but who then find that nothing is done or that the child is disbelieved or the problem minimised—or, worse, that the child being bullied is further isolated or removed to another class, rather than those who are doing the bullying. Schools need to have an active anti-bullying policy that is backed up by staff training and regularly reviewed. They also need to take responsibility for what happens at the school gates and beyond.

The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, rightly made the point that mutual respect should be learnt from a very early age. My noble friend Lady Massey made a powerful case again for the role of PSHE and also for the role that school councils can play in empowering young people to tackle the bullies.

However, there also needs to be a much clearer strategy for those children who are so traumatised that their behaviour, school attendance and mental health are beginning to be affected. We have some evidence of the problem from research by the National Centre for Social Research for the Red Balloon Learner Centres. As we have heard, it has calculated that more than 16,000 young people at any one time refused to attend school because of bullying. Given the parental, legal and educational pressure on young people to attend school, it is also fair to assume that there is a much greater number suffering severe health problems arising from bullying who remain trapped within the school and without adequate support.

What provision should we make for these young people? First, given that they are the victims of bad behaviour by other children, I hope we can agree that any alternative education and support should be at least as good as that which they would have received in mainstream education. Secondly, as the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, highlighted, consideration should be given to those young people accessing temporary SEN status, which would allow them to fund and access individual support.

Thirdly, as many of these young people have complex needs, there should, as is fairly obvious, be a range of support packages available. These might include counselling facilities and in-school specialist units. As has been pointed out, however, we need to be aware of the limitations of these options. PRUs often do not address the child’s trauma of going through the school gates, remaining on the same site as the bullies or dealing with the staff who they feel have failed them in the past. Sometimes, as we have heard, it is expected that they will be taught side by side with other children with a range of other behavioural problems, including the very anti-social behaviour often displayed by bullies that they fear. All too often the units do not have the quality and range of teaching available in the rest of the school.

Fourthly, although local authorities have a duty to provide suitable education for children who are unable to access mainstream education, the reality appears to be that there is little funding available and that provision is patchy. Local authorities are quick to pass the problem back to the school or, as we have heard, in cases where children refuse to attend, they consider prosecuting the parents for their child’s non-attendance rather than tackling the root cause of the trauma.

Fifthly, it seems that government and educators are becoming much more proactive in addressing the physical health of young people through, for example, providing sport and tackling anti-obesity. However, there is not the same drive or expertise to tackle the equally pressing mental health issues of young people in education. There needs to be much better awareness and training for staff on effective strategies for addressing mental health issues. The noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, quite rightly raised the patchy provision of support for mental health in schools since the funding has been devolved.

Finally, we should promote the benefits that specialist trauma recovery units can provide. Like others, I am very impressed by the successful work carried out by Red Balloon to provide a safe sanctuary for bullied children combined with strategies to help them back into mainstream education. Many of the children they help are academically bright and it is crucial that they are not lost permanently to the educational system. It seems a great shame that these units, or an equivalent, are not available on a more extensive basis for traumatised young people.

These issues seem to come down to issues of quality and money, so I would be grateful to hear from the Minister what guarantees he is able to give that bullied young people will receive the same quality of education as their peers. Will he consider our proposal to make SEN status available on a temporary basis to bullied young people, thereby giving them access to much-needed additional support? What external inspection mechanisms are in place to ensure that specialist in-school units, such as PRUs, provide a comparable quality of education as that available on the remainder of the school site? What funding is available to ensure that local authorities provide quality education for young people not attending school? What inspection regime exists to ensure that proper standards in these alternative provisions are met? Finally, what funding mechanisms could be put in place by the department to allow delivery of a more comprehensive availability of such specialist units as Red Balloon which are, as we have heard, so successful?

We have had a thoughtful and probing debate this afternoon and I know that the Minister shares many of our concerns. I hope that in responding he will be able to offer some comfort and commitment to the many thousands of young people who are being bullied in school, and who continue to be bullied as we speak.

13:45

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Nash)]

My Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend Lady Brinton for raising this important issue and for her excellent and moving speech. I should also like to thank noble Lords for their contributions. It has been an insightful and productive debate. I should particularly like to congratulate the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Truro on his maiden speech. His wide experience, including as chair of the Children’s Society, will bring very valuable insights to our debates in future.

I am grateful for the opportunity to set out again the Government's vision in the context of this important group of children. One of the really nice things about this job is that, although we inevitably disagree from time to time on the precise mechanisms for delivery, I know we agree entirely across this House on the determination to provide an excellent education for all pupils, irrespective of background or personal circumstances. This is vital for the success of our young people and it is vital for the success of our country.

The Government have sent a clear message to schools that bullying for any reason is absolutely unacceptable and should not be tolerated in our schools. We will not hesitate to continue to reinforce that message. Schools should tackle bullying at the earliest opportunity and not allow it to escalate, so that pupils suffer emotional or physical distress. Every school is required to have a behaviour policy which includes measures aimed at preventing all forms of bullying among pupils, both in school and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, said in her excellent speech, beyond school as well. My noble friend Lord Lexden referred to some of the measures we have introduced.

I have personal experience of bullying in a number of ways. It is a particularly nasty and pernicious piece of behaviour which can become all the more relentless with the use of modern technology. I can assure the noble Baronesses, Lady Massey and Lady Howe, that we will exhort schools at every opportunity to have a clear vision that emphasises, among other characteristics, compassion for and consideration of others. They must have a clear PSHE policy, which includes an anti-bullying policy, and emulate what good schools do, as my noble friend Lady Walmsley mentioned.

In our drive to tackle bad behaviour and bullying, we have changed legislation to strengthen teachers’ powers to enforce discipline and promote good behaviour in schools. Our guidance published in 2011 sets out schools’ legal duties and powers in relation to bullying. Teachers can search pupils and delete inappropriate images on electronic devices potentially used for cyberbullying. There are now plenty of examples across the country, including in many sponsored academies, where behaviour has gone in a relatively short period of time from being, frankly, pretty awful to good, thanks to strong leadership, a clear behaviour strategy, and the strengthened powers that we have given to teachers.

We believe that the balance is now about right between a statutory framework that requires schools to address behaviour and bullying and is clear about the powers at their disposal, but which also allows schools freedom as to how they tackle bullying. I will come to Ayden’s law shortly. But along with freedom comes accountability. As a number of Lords have mentioned, Ofsted now clearly holds schools to account on how well they deal with behaviour and bullying. Since January 2012, inspectors must consider pupils’ freedom from bullying, harassment and discrimination. The department has also provided £4 million for four anti-bullying organisations to work in schools.

Section 19 of the Education Act 1996 places a duty on local authorities to provide full-time education for children of compulsory school age who, due to illness, exclusion or any other reason, including bullying, may not otherwise receive suitable education. That is what we define as alternative provision education. The Government have shown the importance they place on providing a good quality education to these pupils by asking Charlie Taylor last year to review alternative provision. He stated that it was,

“a flawed system that fails to provide suitable education and proper accountability for some of the most vulnerable children in the country”.

The Government have agreed to all Charlie Taylor’s recommendations and acted swiftly to improve the quality and range of alternative provision by giving existing providers more autonomy through conversion to AP academies and by encouraging new providers such as AP free schools. We now have 14 AP academies and 32 new AP free schools either open or approved. They are providing a range of alternative provision and include such excellent providers as the Bridge Academy, the Complementary Education Academy and Everton Free School.

We are also enabling schools to have greater responsibility and funding for commissioning alternative provision. We have set clear standards for this provisioning and, since September 2012, Ofsted has shone a bright light on mainstream schools’ commissioning of AP. We have asked Ofsted to conduct detailed thematic surveys of this every three years. As part of the wider school funding reforms, since April this year we have ensured, for the first time, that all maintained alternative provision providers such as PRUs, AP academies and AP free schools receive essential core funding of £8,000 per pupil. Top-up funding will then be paid depending on local frameworks agreed between the provider and the commissioner. Schools and local authorities are best placed to decide the appropriate provision for their pupils and, as such, responsibility for commissioning and funding AP has to be at the local level.

We are also trialling a new approach, the “exclusion trial”, built on excellent work previously pioneered in Cambridge, under which schools maintain responsibility for excluded pupils—who stay on their roll—including for placing them in AP settings. This gives a real incentive to schools to intervene early to address behavioural problems before they become entrenched. It also means that schools will ensure that the AP they commission is of high quality and results in pupils achieving good qualifications. The trial includes 11 local authorities.

For the first time, we are utilising effective practice in AP by involving pupil referral units and AP academies in teacher training. Trainee teachers will now be able to teach and gain qualified teacher status in PRUs and AP academies. Eight PRUs are working with 21 trainee teachers for their initial teacher training with seven initial teacher training providers.

I turn now to the mental health support available for children and young people who are bullied. Good head teachers know the importance of supporting young people who are unhappy, unwell or struggling with their family life. Ofsted evidence shows that schools whose pupils do well academically recognise this. In July last year, the cross-government No Health Without Mental Health implementation framework was published. It describes the role that schools and local authorities should play and recommends that schools and colleges have a whole-school approach to this. In his AP review, Charlie Taylor said that the interface between CAMHS and schools does not work as effectively as it should. We are looking at this in some detail.

I can confirm, as requested by my noble friend Lady Walmsley, that my department’s investment in the pupil premium enables schools to invest in pastoral support, therapists and counselling—as in my own school, which has an extensive inclusion programme of therapists and counselling, run by our SENCO. As my noble friend Lady Walmsley said, these are complicated issues and home circumstances often play a very big part. Pupil premium funding is driven by the number of economically deprived pupils, who are more likely to face mental health issues. We also fund a £3 million two-year grant with the Better Outcomes, New Delivery consortium, or BOND.

Helplines also provide a vital source of support and advice for children who are bullied. We have awarded the NSPCC a grant worth £11 million for investment in ChildLine and the NSPCC helpline. In addition, we have awarded a £1.3 million contract to YoungMinds to deliver a helpline for parents whose children are having mental health difficulties. We have also extended the Coram Children’s Legal Centre funding for a further two years to March 2015 and fund Family Lives and Contact a Family. All provide advice and intensive support for parents in relation to bullying and SEN.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, mentioned, a key strategy for improving services for children and young people is to improve their access to good mental health services, such as the Department of Health’s Improving Access for Psychological Therapies programme. IAPT is a service transformation project, aimed at embedding the best evidence-based practice. It trains CAMHS and other professionals in evidence-based therapies. The programme is being rolled out gradually but, by the end of 2015, the Department of Health estimates that 60% of under-19s will be in an area served by the programme.

The Government have also invested £54 million in the Children’s and Young People’s Improving Access to Psychological Therapies programme to transform mental health services for children. We hope that the service will particularly help children at risk of suicide. The Government have underlined that commitment with a specific reference to IAPT for children and young people in the NHS mandate.

Clearly, a highly trained and qualified workforce is also crucial to providing good outcomes for children with SEN, including those with mental health problems. The school SENCO has a critical role to play in this. Every school, including academies, must have a qualified SENCO. He or she has day-to-day responsibility for the operation and co-ordination of specific provision to support pupils. This could include children who are experiencing psychological distress and who are affected by bullying.

Since 2009, the department has funded more than 10,000 SENCOs to complete the national award. We continue to invest in their development and will support a further 800 SENCOs this year. The department has also made a significant investment in educational psychology training of around £5 million per year since 2010. A further £16 million will be made available to support existing trainees to fund their courses and to support two more cohorts starting this year and next.

These principles drive the Government’s reforms but can succeed only if we allow schools, medical practitioners, local authorities and other professionals the freedom to exercise their professional roles, working closely with parents to seek the best outcomes for each child.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, gave examples of particular cases of child bullying leading to suicide. These cases are tragic. With regard to Ayden’s law, we believe that the behaviour and disciplinary framework that schools are required to have in place should be sufficient to cover most cases of bullying and we are wary about suggestions to make bullying a criminal offence. It is difficult to define, could put head teachers in an invidious position and would risk classifying young people as criminals.

Many noble Lords mentioned the Red Balloon organisation. I have had the opportunity of discussing Red Balloon’s work with my noble friend Lady Brinton. Its outcomes sound most impressive. I have not yet had the opportunity of meeting Dr Carrie Herbert, the chief executive, but I hope to do so soon. I hope that it will be able to make a successful application in September under the free schools programme to expand its provision. However, to do so, it will need to demonstrate value for money, demand from schools and local authorities, and clearly demonstrable outcomes.

I was asked about adding bullied pupils to the SEN category. SEN tends to be a long-term issue and we hope and intend that the consequences of bullying can be resolved quickly. However, the definition is deliberately broad and it must allow local professionals the freedom to make those judgments. I understand the points raised by my noble friend Lady Brinton about the need to provide rapid support for children and young people who have become deeply troubled as a result of bullying. Local authorities can issue a short-term statement or make an emergency placement. Education, health and care plans are intended for longer-term, more complicated needs and can take up to 26 weeks, although we are reducing that to 20 weeks.

A number of noble Lords referred to cyberbullying, which is a particularly insidious and harmful form of bullying. We are working closely with anti-bullying organisations such as Childnet International, social networking sites and other internet companies. We included wide search powers in the Education Act 2011 to give teachers stronger powers to tackle cyberbullying and CEOP has also developed an excellent resource for teachers.

My noble friend Lord Lexden referred to homophobic bullying. The coalition Government have made it clear that tackling all forms of bullying, including homophobic bullying, is a key priority. Stonewall has found that 98% of young gay pupils hear the word gay used as a form of abuse at school. Such language is offensive and unacceptable. I expect teachers to react to this in the same way as an offensive racial slur. My noble friend also made the point about the national college enhancing training. I will investigate what it does now and what more can be done and I will write to him. I will certainly send a message to free schools and academies about inspection and the importance of eliminating homophobic bullying.

The noble Baroness, Lady Massey, and my noble friend Lady Walmsley talked about school counselling. England does not collect data on the number of schools offering counselling. A recent survey conducted by the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy estimated that between 61% and 85% of English secondary schools provide access to counselling. School-based counselling is one of the most widely delivered forms of psychological therapy for young people in the UK. The Department for Education has a two-year grant with Better Outcomes and there are some excellent voluntary and community organisations. My noble friend Lady Walmsley mentioned Place2Be, an organisation I know well and been involved with for a number of years.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Truro made an important point regarding advocacy for young carers and children in poverty. The Department of Health has recently started training school nurses to champion young carers and, as he knows, we are working with the Children’s Society to develop policy. He also mentioned child poverty. This Government’s education reforms are driven very much by the needs of children in poverty. As we all know, the best way out of poverty is a good education.

The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, mentioned early prevention. Schools should excel at this by inculcating a culture of respect rather than a rules-based system so bullying is tackled at an early stage and does not develop. This Government have thought hard about early invention, recognising the importance of boosting our children’s social and emotional capability. We have done this through a range of measures such as Graham Allen’s review, the Early Intervention Foundation and George Hosking’s work with Sally Burlington on the needs of children up to the age of two. They identified the importance of evidence-based programmes and practice, such as the internationally acclaimed Roots of Empathy programme mentioned by my noble friend Lady Walmsley. I am very pleased to hear that the Roots of Empathy classes were launched in 14 primary schools in Lewisham and Croydon and I will be very interested to hear about their progress.

I hope I have been able to reassure noble Lords that bullied children are very much not forgotten by this Government and are very much factored into our education reforms and that every reasonable step has been taken to support them and to end bullying in our schools. I restate the Government’s position and the principle that drives these reforms—all children, regardless of circumstances or setting, must be allowed to thrive and prosper in the education system and receive a good education.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

May I push the Minister on the issue of whether bullied children can access SEN facilities temporarily? He quite rightly made the point that SEN facilities normally are for longer term ailments, but is there any reason in principle why we could not amend either the existing legislation or the Children and Families Bill to allow for that temporary access? I wonder whether he would look sympathetically at an amendment along those lines when the Bill comes before us later this year.

[Lord Nash]

I am certainly happy to discuss this with the noble Baroness and see what can be done in this regard.

14:04

[Baroness Brinton]

My Lords, I thank your Lordships for a moving and interesting debate on this very serious issue. I particularly want to offer my congratulations to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Truro on an insightful contribution on children in poverty and the risks that they face from bullying. I thank the noble Lord, Lexden, for highlighting homophobic bullying; the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, for focusing on mental health problems; the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, for talking about the importance of pupil mentors; the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, for focusing on empathy and helping bullies—reducing the number of bullies will solve bullying—and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, who talked about the long-term consequences of bullying and also helped to list what needs to be in place to support severely bullied children and to move towards their recovery.

I am particularly grateful to the Minister for his responses to virtually all our questions—we did throw rather a lot at him—and to his confirmation of the Government’s commitment to reducing bullying. As the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, said, I remain concerned about the issue of short-term statements and I have warned the Minister that I am likely to be laying down some amendments when the Children and Families Bill comes before the House. In the mean time, if the dedication and commitment from everyone who spoke in this debate are replicated elsewhere in the country, we can really start to remove the scourge of severely bullied children and help them to recover.

Motion agreed.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, as this debate has run slightly short and we are still missing one or two of the speakers for the next debate, I suggest that the House do adjourn during pleasure until 2.20 pm.

14:06

Sitting suspended.

Business

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Announcement

14:20

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, as Government Chief Whip, it falls to me to apologise to the House on behalf of the Government Whips team. In trying to assist Back-Benchers who were about to take part in this debate they mistakenly adjourned the House during pleasure. I do not think that any noble Lords were upset by that—perhaps I am the only one to be aware that it is perhaps unfortunate that it was done. Clearly it is a practice and procedure of this House to proceed cleanly from one item of business to another. It is the duty of Back-Benchers who are taking part, as well as Front-Benchers, to be sure of the start time of the debate.

There are no fixed times on a Thursday, so when the first debate was clearly running a little short in time because those taking part were a little more succinct than expected, the doorkeepers, at our request, very carefully put on the annunciator the normal green sign, which gave ample notice that the following debate in the name of my noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill was going to begin in short order. That is the sign that noble Lords should have been waiting for; indeed, they should have been here as soon as they saw that the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Nash, was winding for the previous debate. It was therefore regrettable that there were two Back-Benchers who were not present, and in trying to be courteous one of my colleagues, who is one of the best of our Government Whips, took advice and felt that it was perhaps better to adjourn. I have advised her that in being kind she was perhaps too kind. This is not something we will seek to repeat.

As soon as a debate begins, all those taking part, with the owner of that debate, my noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill, are expected to be present for the opening speeches, the winding speeches, their own speech—I would hope—those from noble Lords either side of them, and as much of the remainder of the debate as they may attend. Of course, if colleagues do not attend opening speeches, they may not speak—I am looking very carefully for one who is still not here—and they will be advised by their Chief Whip that if they were to proceed it would be discourteous to the House.

I have now given two full minutes for those absent to arrive. On that basis I conclude my apology, and I certainly hope that the following debate will be both informative and enjoyed, a characteristic of our Thursday debates.

British Bill of Rights

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Motion to Take Note

14:22

Moved by

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

That this House takes note of the report of the Commission on a British Bill of Rights.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for reminding us that this House has decent standards. On this occasion I am able to plead not guilty.

I am delighted to have the opportunity to initiate a debate on the report of the Commission on a Bill of Rights, of which I was a member. I am also glad that two of my fellow commissioners, the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, and so many other distinguished Members will take part. I look forward especially to the speeches in reply to the debate from the noble Lord, Lord Bach, with whom I worked when I was an unpaid independent adviser to Jack Straw under the Brown Government, and from my noble friend Lord McNally. I have mentioned those taking part in the debate; I am also glad to say that Sir Leigh Lewis, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Browne-Wilkinson, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the former Attorney-General of India, Soli Sorabjee, are all here to witness the debate.

We were nine commissioners: eight white QCs, one woman and two Scots, with the distinguished former civil servant Sir Leigh Lewis as chair. As I said, he is here today to witness our debate. Sir Leigh had Solomon’s wisdom and the patience of Job. In attempting to secure a unanimous report he endured, like Job, much undeserved suffering. In the current polarised political climate of hostility to Europe’s political and legal institutions, well reflected within the commission, it was a thankless task. However, the report was and will remain important and its quality owes much to the dedicated able staff who supported us. I hope it will be read when the time is ripe for much needed coherent and enduring constitutional reform.

There are two main reasons in favour of a modern constitutional Bill of Rights: a good reason and a bad reason. The good reason is that, instead of relying upon a European treaty to define and protect our fundamental civil and political rights and liberties, we need a home-grown constitutional measure based on our constitutional and legal heritage that will command widespread public confidence beyond the courts and the legal profession. The bad reason is that a home-grown Bill of Rights would enable us to withdraw from the European Convention on Human Rights and the ability to seek redress from the European Court of Human Rights where our courts are unable to provide a remedy. According to this view it would enable the Human Rights Act to be scrapped and replaced by a measure that gave more power to the Executive and Parliament to restrict or limit our civil rights and freedoms.

Many of those who would agree that there are good reasons in theory in favour of a modern Bill of Rights fear, with good reason, that its adoption would result in our withdrawal from the European system for human rights protection and would strengthen state power at the expense of individual freedom and the protection of minorities against what John Stuart Mill called the “tyranny of the majority”. It was that well founded political anxiety that led to dissent by two of the commissioners appointed by the Deputy Prime Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, and Professor Philippe Sands, whose distrust of the Tea Party tendency in the current Conservative Party made them refuse to support a new Bill of Rights in the current Eurosceptic political climate. I fully respect their view.

I set out my own position in a separate note in the report at pages 231-33. My position—and I believe that of commissioner Sir David Edward, the distinguished former judge of the European Court of Justice—is that we favour carefully considered constitutional reform if, but only if, it strengthens rather than weakens effective protection, and if, but only if, the UK remains bound by the convention and the judgments of the European Court of Human Rights. Every one of the 47 member states has made the convention rights part of their domestic law.

Any move towards a UK Bill of Rights would need to be made carefully and sensitively after wide public consultation within each country of the United Kingdom and across the nation as a whole, in the context of the constitutional debate that is bound to occur, whatever the outcome of the Scottish independence referendum and the debates in Northern Ireland about whether additional protection is needed there.

The present Government have been no more capable of achieving coherent and ensuring constitutional reform than their predecessors, despite the reforms made under the Cook-Maclennan Labour-Liberal Democrat agreement, in which my noble friend Lord McNally and I took part. Opportunities have been botched, not just by this Government but by the Brown Government. However, whatever the outcome of the Scottish referendum, we will need to rethink devolution and whether, for example, it should be replaced by a federal system in which this House becomes an indirectly elected senate with some appointed members. If so, there would definitely be the need for a federal Bill of Rights to be read and given effect in accordance with our international and European legal obligations. There is also the long-standing pledge in the Belfast agreement to introduce an additional Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland. It would be sensible to create a broad-based constitutional commission to clarify the options for the next Government, but only if it had the support of all three main political parties. That, regrettably, seems unlikely.

The elephant in the Chamber is of course the Strasbourg court. The European court and its judges are subject to constant unfair attacks, personal and political, by the Mail, the Telegraph and the Express, among others, which campaign to end what they call the “Human Rights Act farce”. They are commercially self-interested, because they wish to be free to invade personal privacy without the limits imposed by the convention. They do not acknowledge the way in which the Strasbourg court has strengthened the protection of freedom of speech and freedom of the press in this country. Examples of this include the cases of thalidomide, Goodwin, Tolstoy, Spycatcher, Max Mosley and the Mirror Group Newspapers case on unfair cost rules. Indeed, one of the main purposes of the Defamation Act 2013 that we recently passed is to make our archaic and oppressive libel law compatible with Article 10 of the convention, by striking a fair balance between free speech and the protection of good reputation. My noble friend Lord McNally of course gave superb leadership to accomplish that end.

The English print media attacks, supported by too many MPs who should know better, have included gross and offensive criticism of the distinguished former president of the Strasbourg court, Sir Nicolas Bratza. These attacks may be partly responsible for the absence of any senior British judicial candidates to replace him on the European court. Another factor may be the uncompetitive nature of the pension and other arrangements for British judges joining the Strasbourg court, moving family and home to Strasbourg only to face abuse from the media and politicians for their pains. The pension arrangements for new judges are significantly worse than for judges serving in the UK. I hope the Minister will confirm that this gap will be addressed for future appointments.

The fact that our senior judges will no longer serve on the Strasbourg court, and are unlikely to do so unless the Ministry of Justice introduces incentives, is very bad news for those of us who cherish our common-law system and want to promote its virtues within the European system. It is also bad news for those of us who are friends of the Strasbourg court. We are fortunate to have Judge Paul Mahoney on the court, but it is essential for his successor to be a powerful and experienced jurist with a thick skin.

I was in Strasbourg two weeks ago. Diplomats, judges and civil servants all told me of their profound mistrust of our Government and its real objectives, as the Prime Minister, the Home Secretary and the Minister of Justice threaten no longer to accept the court and its judgments and to tear up the Human Rights Act. There is deep despair and a serious loss of British influence. Churchill, Macmillan and Maxwell-Fyfe, who led the European Movement and the creation of the convention system, would be appalled and ashamed at the way the tabloid press, swivel-eyed Tory Tea Partygoers and UKIP now call the tune. How can the UK claim to uphold the European rule of law when a former Lord Chancellor for whom I worked, the right honourable Jack Straw MP, boasts in his memoirs of refusing to give effect to the Strasbourg court’s judgment in the Hirst case? He and David Davies MP, then the shadow Home Secretary, went to Strasbourg to remonstrate with the court’s president, Sir Nicolas Bratza, about the court’s case law. I find that completely unacceptable.

The Minister of Justice also wears the robes of the Lord Chancellor. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, the great holder of that office in the Thatcher Government, has no doubt that the UK is in breach of its international legal duty to give effect to the Strasbourg court's judgment in Hirst. However, the right honourable Chris Grayling thinks the court has overreached itself and that Parliament must have the last word. He does not appear to be concerned about the effect of his approach in undermining our reputation as a rule-of-law country. Ministers have a duty to comply with international law and treaty obligations, as is made clear in the Ministerial Code, proclaimed by the Prime Minister when he took office in 2010. It states:

“Ministers of the Crown are expected to behave in a way that upholds the highest standards of propriety … The Ministerial Code should be read alongside the Coalition agreement and the background of the overarching duty”—

I repeat, the overarching duty—

“on Ministers to comply with the law including international law and treaty obligations and to uphold the administration of justice and to protect the integrity of public life”.

Jonathan Fisher QC, a Conservative member of the commission, suggested last week in the Times that the Government should campaign to persuade the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe to refer the UK’s refusal to implement the Hirst judgment back to the European court, because the court has exceeded its jurisdiction. There would be no sympathy at all for that idea. No doubt, in a bid for the support of the media and English nationalist voters, the next Conservative manifesto will promise a British Bill of Rights to replace the Human Rights Act and the role of the Strasbourg court. I hope and believe that the British people will reject that proposal when they realise that it would weaken protection against the misuse of state power. It would certainly be rejected in the Celtic nations of the UK.

Whatever the outcome of the Scottish referendum, the next Government will need to review our constitutional system. The celebration of Magna Carta in June 2015 might be the occasion. A future coalition not beholden to UKIP should seek to strengthen the Strasbourg court. We need new arrangements to ensure that British judges may be seconded without being worse off financially. The system of election of Strasbourg judges needs to be reformed, as was promised in the Brighton declaration. There are other practical proposals that also need to be implemented. The court does not have enough funds to clear the backlog. The registrar of the court has written to the Committee of Ministers pointing out the problems that need to be addressed.

Ministers need to rebut the myth that the Strasbourg court is a “foreign” court and constantly overturns the decisions of the UK courts. In 2012, of more than 2,000 UK applications decided by the court, only 12 resulted in a finding of a violation. The present politically divided coalition Government, which is also divided on this issue, are unlikely to address these issues effectively. We must hope that the next Government will use the ideas in the commission's report to strengthen the effective protection of human rights at home and across the European space, for the sake of the peoples of our nations. I beg to move.

14:38

[Lord Faulks]

My Lords, I begin by congratulating my noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill on securing this debate. I also congratulate him on his enormous contribution to the cause of human rights over the years. I should declare an interest as a member of the commission, though I came relatively late to the party, joining as a replacement for Michael Pinto-Duschinsky. On leaving the commission he expressed his views firmly and widely on where he thought the discussions had gone wrong. During my period at the commission there were certainly vigorous debates about a number of issues, as is apparent from the range of views expressed in the report. However, the process of arriving at our conclusions was a civilised one, made easier by the skilful chairmanship of Sir Leigh Lewis.

There was a majority view, as your Lordships have heard, in favour of the creation of a UK Bill of Rights that incorporates and builds on our obligations under the European Convention. That was the answer to the question contained in our terms of reference when the commission was set up by the Deputy Prime Minister. However, it seemed to at least two of us that the commission had not been asked to consider the key issue: namely, how the United Kingdom should respond to the judicially activist approach taken by the European Court of Human Rights in its interpretation and application of the convention in the past 30 years—in particular, whether the United Kingdom should consider withdrawal from the court’s jurisdiction, or at least renegotiate our terms of membership.

Jonathan Fisher QC and I were responsible for a paper entitled Unfinished Business, which is incorporated in volume 1 of the commission’s report. It reflects our views and, I venture to think, the views of others outside the commission. I respectfully suggest that those views are not restricted to what my noble friend described as the “Tea Party” tendency in the Conservative Party. I will not repeat now what we said but will make a few observations that arise from the commission’s report.

In talking of human rights, it is easy to approach matters at a level of abstraction. However, what does a human rights case actually look like at domestic level? Here I must declare a further interest as a practising barrister who, since the enactment of the Human Rights Act, has devoted a considerable amount of time to defending public authorities against claims arising directly or indirectly from the Act. Fascinating though these cases have been, I have been far from convinced that most of them have very much, if anything, to do with what people would once have meant by the expression “human rights”.

The courts in this country have, for the most part, strained to follow Strasbourg case law and its often rather creative interpretation of the convention. Supporters of the Human Rights Act tend to extol the wording of the convention, which contains a perfectly acceptable summary of human rights. However, as Jack Straw, former Home Secretary and Secretary of State for Justice, said in the debate on prisoner voting,

“the problem is not the plain text of the convention, but the way in which it has been over-interpreted to extend the jurisdiction of the European Court ... the problem has arisen because of the judicial activism of the Court in Strasbourg, which is widening its role not only beyond anything anticipated in the founding treaties but beyond anything anticipated by the subsequent active consent of all the state parties, including the UK”.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/2/11; cols. 501-02.]

In a way this was all very predictable. Lord Denning was a judge who was once highly regarded as a legal thinker. His judgments are cited much less often in the courts now. He wrote a great deal about the European convention. It was relied upon in courts before the Human Rights Act was enacted. He said in the case of Ahmed v Inner London Education Authority in 1978:

“The Convention is drafted in a style very different from the way we are used to in legislation. It contains wide general statements of principle. They are apt to lead to much difficulty in application; because they give rise to much uncertainty. They are not the sort of thing which we can easily digest. Article 8 is an example. It is so wide as to be incapable of practical application. So it is much better for us to stick to our own statutes and principles, and only look to the Convention for guidance in case of doubt”.

I suggest that there was much wisdom, indeed prescience, in what he said, albeit that his views are often dismissed as insular.

One aspect of the debate that has not sufficiently been emphasised is the extraordinary cost of human rights. Before I became a member of the commission, I asked a Written Question of the Minister as to whether the commission would be considering as part of its report questions of cost. The reply was that this was a matter for the commission. On arrival at the commission, it was apparent that the membership did not consider cost to be within its terms of reference. On 7 March 2013, I asked the Minister here in the Chamber to tell us whether the Government could give us any figures for how much human rights were costing us. His answer was that he could not do so. He described respect for human rights as being,

“a prize beyond cost”.—[Official Report, 7/3/13; col. 1614.]

All noble Lords value the protection of human rights, but, with great respect, that does not mean that the question of cost becomes a no-go area.

The LASPO Act made some widespread changes in the cost of litigation. Many were timely, in particular those that effectively implemented the Jackson reforms. I was somewhat less enthusiastic about the alterations to legal aid, which had the potential to deny representation to some with genuine claims and limited means. However, the Minister was reassuring as to the alternative and cheaper ways in which ordinary citizens could seek appropriate remedies. One exception to the cost-cutting exercise appeared to be cases involving the Human Rights Act. No figures were given to Parliament as to how much such cases were costing or would cost in the future. Were the Government concerned that denying legal aid to any claim involving the Human Rights Act would put them potentially in breach of Article 6 of the convention?

Claims involving the Human Rights Act continue, whether as claims for compensation or as the basis for judicial review. The sums awarded are often trivial. The cost, however, is not. The cost of the Abu Qatada litigation is said to be in excess of £1.7 million. It seems to be absolutely crucial that the Government should at least make some attempt to calculate what the HRA has cost in terms of legal fees generated by litigation. The cost does not end there. Public authorities have conscientiously attempted to ensure that their policies and practices are human rights-compliant. This is a very difficult exercise because it depends on trying to second-guess what view the Strasbourg Court, and thus our courts, will take of a particular situation. We need to know about these costs in an area that has much in common with our overreaction to the requirements of health and safety or even the Data Protection Act.

I have another substantial question for the Minister. I appreciate that he may have difficulty in answering some questions, in view of the well understood difference of opinion between the Liberal Democrat Party and Conservative Party in relation to the Human Rights Act, but I hope that he can answer this one. Do the Government agree that in leaving the ECHR, if that course were taken, we would also have to leave the European Union? This was the somewhat surprising view recently expressed by Judge Dean Spielmann, the president of the ECHR. My understanding of the position is that EU treaties do not provide that adherence to the European convention is a formal requirement of continued membership of the EU, even if membership may be regarded as a benchmark in terms of respect for human rights.

Such respect is something that unites us all, but if we were to leave the Strasbourg Court and indeed the Council of Europe, this respect for human rights would not diminish. Before the Act came into force, this country had a proud, albeit not unblemished, record for the protection of human rights through its domestic law. We are, of course, bound by a plethora of international obligations from which we would not be relieved were we to leave the Strasbourg court. Any noble Lords who wish to be reassured about our contribution to the protection of human rights and democracy all over the world should read the 2012 Foreign and Commonwealth Office report published in April this year. It is a remarkable tribute to the work of the FCO. If I highlight in particular its work in relation to sexual violence as a weapon of war, that does not in any way diminish the other aspects of its work.

The JCHR, of which I am a member, would still have important work to do even if the Act were to be repealed. The EHRC, set up pursuant to the Equality Act, would continue to have an important role. Above all, Parliament can legislate to protect human rights on a more targeted and nuanced basis, rather than having to perform somersaults to reflect actual or potential decisions made here or in Strasbourg.

The question is therefore not whether we should be protecting human rights but whether the Strasbourg court is the best or even the preferred method of defining or enforcing human rights standards. It is said by some that we would be a pariah state were we to cut our links with the Strasbourg court. The human rights records of some counties subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court suggest that membership is hardly a guarantee of the protection of human rights.

It is important not to demonise the Strasbourg court. It does not have the same regard for precedent, and the jurisprudence in this country, post human rights, can make difficult reading, as judges try to impose some sort of taxonomy—because of our courts’ respect for precedent—on a jurisprudence that lacks such respect. As my noble friend Lord Lester said, some of the decisions from Strasbourg have been profound and influential. However, if we were to leave the convention it would not mean that we would ignore such decisions any more than we would ignore influential decisions from elsewhere in the world.

My noble friend said that the European convention was the work of distinguished Conservative politicians and referred to Sir David Maxwell Fyfe as one of those responsible for its first draft. This is true but social historians, particularly having regard to his response to privacy and gay rights issues, tend to the view that it is most unlikely that he would have approved of the way the Human Rights Act developed and has been interpreted.

In conclusion, I remain passionately committed to the cause of human rights, but retain deep reservations about the Human Rights Act. Above all, I am concerned that human rights can get so easily lost in the law and the language of lawyers. Whereas law should be the servant of human rights, it has become their master.

14:51

[Lord Goldsmith]

My Lords, I need to start with an apology to the House and to the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, for arriving after the start of the debate. I can pray in aid a little bit of confusion about the starting time of the debate, and I know very well the views of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, from over the years so I can predict some of the things that he would have said.

I therefore hope that the House will permit me to make a few brief observations on this very important topic. In doing so, I declare an interest as a practising lawyer. I have been involved in human rights work, in the sense that a lot of the work that I did when I was Attorney-General involved vetting and approving—and occasionally not approving—legislation or executive action on the grounds of compliance or non-compliance with our Community obligations and arguing cases on behalf of the Government either in this country’s courts or, from time to time, overseas, including in Strasbourg. I have some experience of how the European convention and the Human Rights Act work. I was also the Prime Minister’s personal representative in negotiating the European Charter of Fundamental Rights, which was set up following the Cologne and Nice summits to try to draw up a charter for the institutions of the European Union rather than its member states. I am therefore familiar with the debates.

The principal point that I want briefly to make is that I am despondent and unhappy about the turn which has been taken in the debate on human rights, and I am therefore unhappy about the commission’s report. I am concerned about a proposal that would not just put in place additional protection in a British Bill of Rights but, at least in the view of some members of the commission and some members of the Government, replace the European Convention on Human Rights with something else. There are three reasons why that would be a retrograde step.

The first reason is the universality of human rights protection that the European convention gives rise to. It gives rise to universality across the European countries which subscribe to the Council of Europe and the European convention. This does not mean that it is interpreted or applied in exactly the same way in every country, nor should it be. There are different social conditions and the principles—the so-called margin of appreciation—provide an opportunity for different countries to be allowed a chance to apply the rules and rights in the European convention in a way which suits the social and economic conditions of that country. Otherwise, it means that all the countries which subscribe share the same fundamental values and are subject to the same fundamental restrictions on how they deal with people within their territories.

I am really worried at the prospect of the message it would send if the United Kingdom were to leave the European convention. The noble Lord, Lord Faulks, talked about the UK becoming a pariah state, but that is not quite what I have in mind. He also rightly described the very proud and important contribution that this country has made to human rights protection in many parts of the world. However, once it became clear that the view of the United Kingdom was that it could go its own way and no longer needed the European Court of Human Rights or to follow the European convention, I would worry about the example that we were setting. There are countries in eastern Europe—I will not name them but noble Lords can identify them very easily—that already find it difficult to comply with their obligations, and if they felt that they had the liberty to produce their own Bill of Rights and their own protections they would move in a very different way.

Secondly, the convention provides for a permanence of protections. It is not an immutable convention: it is open to member states to change. It is more often changed by the addition of rights through the agreement of new protocols but it is not impossible for member states to agree changes. However, it differs very much from parliamentary legislation in that it is not open to a single state to say, “We do not like the decision that the court has just made therefore we are now going to amend the right that is at issue”. I would be very worried if the protection of human rights in this country depended only on a statute of this Parliament, for which I have enormous respect. It would still mean that it would be capable of amendment, variation, revocation or removal if there were a parliamentary majority for that to take place. I am concerned that there is a risk that something as important as the protection of our fellow citizens could be subject to short-term political issues or the pressures of newspapers.

My third concern is the detail: the devil is always in the detail. I see from the commission’s conclusions that:

“The majority are agreed that such a Bill should have at its core the rights currently in the European Convention on Human Rights … That does not necessarily mean, however, that they would have to be written in identical language”.

I had exactly that issue when negotiating the charter. The question then was whether we should write the relevant rights and obligations in the same terms used in the European convention or use different language. As soon as you use different language, any lawyer will find a difference in the meaning intended. I do not know how it is to be done because we do not know what the detail of a new Bill would be, but there is a real risk that the rights written—allegedly not in non-identical language but protecting the same rights—would not actually be protected. When I was in office and debated the European convention with my opposite numbers I used simply to ask which of the rights in the convention they did not agree with: the right to a fair trial, the freedom of speech, freedom of association, the prohibition of torture, the prohibition of inhuman and degrading treatment. When one analyses that—given that the rights concerned are basic rights, rightly put into place following the horrors of the Holocaust—it is difficult to rewrite this in a way which does not risk removing those rights in some respect. If that is not the intention I do not see the point of rewriting it, and that worries me a great deal.

My final point is that I share the views of those who have said that it would be very good if more could be done to try to explain how the Human Rights Act and the European convention work. There are myths and misconceptions; we came across a lot of them in the time that I was in office. For example, there was the allegation that an escaped burglar was provided with food when he escaped because of his human rights, when it was nothing at all to do with that. In fact, it was not food but drink; it is a jolly good way to get somebody down from a roof, to ply him with a lot of drink—non-alcoholic drink, of course, although maybe with alcoholic drink it would have been even faster. Lots of stories were promoted, and came across in the newspapers about events said to have taken place, but they were simply not the case. There is a huge amount of misconception.

I worry about the things that the present Government say that do not illustrate a complete understanding of the Act. This is not the first time that I have said this, but I was troubled by what the right honourable Mr Grayling, the Lord Chancellor, said in relation to the prisoner votes debate—that it was open to this Parliament to ignore a decision made in a case to which the United Kingdom was a party. Under the Human Rights Act it is perfectly true that, when it is a decision in relation to another country, our courts are required only to have regard to the decisions. However, none of that takes away from the obligation that this country has, having entered into an international obligation, to follow the decisions of the court when they are made against us.

Others will speak with more authority about the work of the commission, but I am grateful to noble Lords for listening to me.

15:01

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords, I am the first non-practising lawyer to contribute to this debate, but it is the case that I had an oversight of some of the legislation, notably that of 1998, which was the third stage in the development of international protection of human rights. The first was the ratification of the convention in 1953; the second was giving the right of petition to individual citizens in 1966, in this country; and the third was the so-called incorporation of the convention.

I am bound to say that I have been disturbed by the attitudes expressed by a number of Conservative Members of both Houses about the underpinning of human rights. It seems to me that the division of opinion was reflected in the commission itself, and I understand clearly why the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, and Professor Philippe Sands were reluctant to advocate any change in the status quo at this time. There are good reasons for considering whether the scope of domestic protection of human rights should be enlarged. However, I would think that it could not be done entirely on the basis of the commission’s report.

My noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill deserves laurels from the nation not only for his participation in the work of this commission but for the strong defence that he has made over the years of the enlargement of the practical protection of human rights. I am very grateful to him for opening the debate as he did.

Many aspects of our constitution are developing gradually, but without necessary regard to their impact on other aspects. At this time, not least because of the Scottish dimension and the definite possibility of a referendum on independence, we will have some difficulty in considering this in isolation from these other constitutional considerations. I would hope, however, that in pursuance of one of the recommendations of the commission, namely that of making the public more widely aware of the importance of the protection of human rights—of what the Human Rights Act does and where it is, perhaps, limited—we could establish some kind of convention, not just on the protection of human rights, but more widely. Speaking as a Scot, I do not think that the people of Scotland should think that their choice is between independence and the status quo; there should be a possibility of development towards a more federal system of government internally in this United Kingdom. If that proposal were to be taken up by the Government, I hope that it would be considered with great care—and it has been considered by the Graham Allen-chaired committee in the House of Commons. There would be an opportunity to involve not just interest groups or politicians but individual citizens and to spread a greater understanding of the importance of the protection of human rights. One possibility is that we might seek to extend effective protection by taking account of other conventions to which we have signed up but not necessarily given effect, such as the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

I believe that we have in the past been an exemplar of the protection of human rights, and that should remain our goal. I agree very much with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, in his strictures about opting out of the work and jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights, for the reasons that he gave. At this perilously fragile time within the European Union—but not only within the European Union—there would be a great danger in our giving an example of withdrawing from the broadly expressed rubrics of the convention on human rights.

One issue that has emerged in this debate is around the language of the protection of human rights, which has always been cast in very broad and general terms. If you go back to the Bill of Rights of 1689, you will find similarly broad expressions. I do not think that it would be at all sensible to narrow the effectiveness of those broad rights by having greater definition; certainly there could be extension, but not tighter definition. That is why the judges should have a balancing role in our constitution. I am very unhappy about the principle of sovereignty of Parliament, if it is judged as being something capable of being used to produce results contrary to the history of our country and values that we have, over many centuries, embraced and become more particular about. Consequently, I take the view that the position of judges in this country is important.

I note what has been said, and clearly action needs to be taken. I hope that the Minister may be in a position to give us some indication of what action can be taken to strengthen the European Court of Human Rights, in the light of the backlog of cases and the cost of sweeping up this backlog, and whether he believes that the Brighton declaration might lead to greater international harmony on reaching agreement about the appointment of judges and so forth.

Nevertheless, the system as it is is so much better than it was, and I very much hope that we take our time to consider how to enlarge this and to involve the public and the constituent nations of the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland is a special case because it has been given some indication that we might be ready to do something about its protection of human rights. Scotland and Wales are in a fragile—or, at least, indecisive—position at the moment. The coalition Government should therefore not seek to come to a quick conclusion about how we are going ahead, but the direction seems to be clear. We need a Bill of Rights against which we can judge the appropriateness of executive action and, indeed, the conformity of legislation with the fundamental values that we, as a nation, have embraced and wish to continue to embrace.

15:11

[Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood]

My Lords, I hope not to detain your Lordships too long. Indeed, had I appreciated in advance what a wealth of legal and constitutional expertise was to be available to the House in this debate, I doubt that I would have troubled your Lordships at all.

I speak as one who, over the 13 years since the convention became part of our domestic law, has probably been involved in at least as many cases dealing with convention rights as any other judge in the country. The main reason I speak is to try to save my successors in the courts from what I believe would be the nightmare of implementing the majority’s central recommendation in this report; the nightmare of having to wrestle in the courts in future not merely with the complexities and uncertainties of the convention and of the vast body of jurisprudence that it has spawned but with those of a new UK Bill of Rights superimposed on it. I say “superimposed” because it is, of course, a given of the majority’s case in favour of a domestic Bill that it would in no way detract from the existing rights and freedoms under the Strasbourg convention. Rather, as the report states,

“such a Bill would incorporate and build on all of the UK’s obligations”,

under the convention.

The report presupposes the,

“UK’s continuing adherence to the European Convention on Human Rights and to the European Court of Human Rights as a given”.

It follows inescapably from this that the baseline of any future challenge would be whatever rights already exist under the Strasbourg convention and case law. Inevitably, it would be necessary to explore all this in full and to establish that baseline before the court proceeds to consider whether the UK domestic Bill enlarges upon that right.

Of course, I recognise that the position would be different in respect of any discrete rights that the UK Bill might introduce, such as specific environmental rights, or what are called socioeconomic rights, or, indeed, rights to a jury trial in certain cases. However, the introduction of those would be highly contentious and fraught with all sorts of difficulties, and in any event could be enacted entirely independently of the sort of full-blown UK Bill which I understand the majority of the commission to envisage.

What I understand to be the core justification in the eyes of the majority for restating all existing convention rights in different language in a new United Kingdom domestic Bill of Rights is what the report calls,

“the need to create greater public ownership”,

of the rights. According to the report, the majority suggest that this could be achieved if the Bill,

“was written in language which reflected the distinctive history and heritage of the countries within the United Kingdom”.

I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Lester, for securing this debate, and indeed to his huge contribution over many years to the wider human rights debate. In his characteristically thoughtful personal explanatory note as to why he is prepared to join the majority view, he states:

“it calls for a restatement of civil and political rights and liberties in terms that respect our constitutional and legal heritage”.

With the best will in the world, the process that I sought to describe earlier of first having to ascertain the position under Strasbourg law and then seeing whether the claimant’s case can be advanced by reference to some additional rights under the UK Bill—I interpolate that the respondent’s rights could never be improved because there is no question of detracting from the Strasbourg rights—could never hope to persuade the public that we have somehow now come to own these rights.

The sad fact is that in whatever instruments and whatever language minority rights are enshrined, certain judgments which courts are on occasion required to give are bound to be deeply unpopular and to be misleadingly, and indeed mischievously, portrayed by some in such a way as can tend to alienate the public from the whole notion of human rights. Paragraph 82 of the report rightly refers to,

“the highly polemical way in which these issues tend to be presented by both some commentators and some sections of the media”.

Later, it quotes a witness speaking of,

“the climate of disrespect surrounding it”—

that is, the Human Rights Act—

“created and perpetuated by political and public figures and the media”.

In short, the convention, the Strasbourg court and in turn our own judges are all too often maligned. But ‘twas ever thus and regrettably it always will be. We do not, and indeed must not, outlaw unpopular minorities—prisoners, asylum seekers, immigrants and so forth—and we must not outlaw even the wicked. However, judgments in their favour often attract great hostility from the majority, and it is all too tempting for that majority, and even on occasion for government, then to blame the judges. Indeed, on one occasion in the Supreme Court I recall that we were shown Home Office minutes expressly recognising the impossibility of the Government’s position under established human rights law and yet suggesting that the Home Office should maintain its stance and,

“let the judges take the hit”.

No UK Bill of Rights is going to cure that sort of problem. Let us stay with where we have got to and try gradually to improve that situation.

I acknowledge the contribution made to the wider debate by this report, but for my part I would align myself with the minority.

15:19

[Lord Gold]

My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Lester, for initiating this debate. I acknowledge his tremendous contribution in the area of human rights.

The Human Rights Act was regarded as the UK’s Bill of Rights and was described as such on its introduction into law. Nevertheless, by a majority, and after referring to many difficult issues, not least relating to Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, the commission supported the proposal that the UK should have its own Bill of Rights.

So why are we now considering having another UK Bill of Rights? Is there something wrong with the first one? Does it go too far? Perhaps it does not go far enough. If I understand the report correctly, and as the noble Lord, Lord Lester, confirmed in opening the debate, the main reason appears to be that we are lacking right now,

“public acceptance of the legitimacy of our current human rights structures, including of the roles of the Convention and the European Court of Human Rights”.

The majority of members of the commission accept Liberty’s submission that,

“there is a lack of public understanding and ‘ownership’ of the HRA”.

These same members believe that that applies equally to the European Convention on Human Rights and the European court, so that many people feel alienated from a system they regard as European and not British. The majority also believe that public perceptions will not change even if there is better public education of the Human Rights Act and its structures. Therefore, their answer is to support the creation of a UK Bill that incorporates and builds on all the obligations prescribed by the European convention. Merris Amos, a senior lecturer at Queen Mary College, argues that,

“starting again with a UK Bill of Rights, containing identical or better human rights guarantees, might overcome these difficulties”,

of acceptance and perception,

“and create more of a sense of ownership amongst the general public”.

There is no evidence that that is correct. It is a hunch, and a very expensive one at that. Assuming that Parliament is persuaded by the force of this argument, before any UK Bill of Rights could be introduced it would be necessary to consult widely. We would also have to find a solution to the difficulties identified by the commission and mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Lester, and others, notably relating to Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. All that will take time, will be very expensive, and inevitably will not happen before the next election.

It seems that the main complaint with the present system is that we have to pay regard to decisions made by the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. It has been mentioned by several of your Lordships this afternoon. Some people see this as interference by a foreign body in domestic matters. For example, the court’s ruling on prisoner voting has angered many people, as have the difficulties experienced in seeking to deport non-citizens found guilty of serious crimes.

In the well considered paper headed Unfinished Business, written by my noble friend Lord Faulks QC and Jonathan Fisher QC, appended to the commission’s report, there is reference to the inefficiency of the court and the quality of some of the judges there, as well as to the fact that the court has so far failed to heed calls for reform. The noble Lord, Lord Lester, mentioned the need to improve matters in that court. Their answer is to support the proposal of this UK Bill, although they accept that the problems,

“posed by a judicially activist court could be resolved if effective reforms were agreed and implemented by the Council of Europe”.

The commission submitted proposals for reform of the court in an interim report issued on 28 July 2011. A meeting of the Council of Europe was held in Brighton in April 2012. Despite the UK pressing for reform, this was rejected. My noble friend Lord Faulks and Mr Fisher conclude by supporting the idea of a UK Bill and canvass the possibility of the UK leaving the convention.

I respectfully disagree. In my view, it would be a backward step for us to turn our backs on the convention. Even if we went ahead with our own Bill of Rights, it would risk giving a very bad message as to the UK’s commitment to human rights and would likely spur on the critics seeking to make capital in relation to every change of language in the UK Bill.

I believe that there should be a different approach, recognising that there has been a little progress. English judges have been moving away from the notion that they are strictly bound by the jurisprudence of the European court. While respecting the boundaries of the convention, the Human Rights Act recognises and encourages the development of independent domestic rights jurisprudence. The English courts are taking the jurisprudence of the European Court of Human Rights properly into account, but are not necessarily bound by its decisions. I believe that for the present we should make a concerted effort to win over public confidence in the European convention by making the British public more aware of what the English courts are doing. I am not persuaded that we should embark now upon the costly, time-consuming and difficult task of proceeding with a UK Bill. As I have said, I do not believe that cogent evidence is available to show that that would be better supported by the British public. Instead, and despite the considerable difficulties, which I acknowledge, we should seek again to reform the European court, as has already been proposed and attempted. The Prime Minister should add this to his agenda when he begins negotiations for wider reform.

15:26

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Lester, for securing this debate, and I join with others in paying tribute to him for his life’s work in supporting human rights here and around the world.

The public would be right to ask the question, “Whatever happened to that commission?”, because, of course, the commission’s report was published six months ago and we have not heard very much about it since. This is perhaps best answered by the fact that the commission was really set up to answer a political problem. Here was an issue on which the parties to the coalition were deeply divided. Some Conservatives hold strongly that the European Court of Human Rights and the European Convention on Human Rights are an abomination and that we should be putting an end to them as soon as possible. Other Conservatives may take a more sensible view. The Liberal Democrats are deeply committed to human rights and to the whole framework for securing respect for human rights throughout Europe and the world. So there was this division, this problem of hostility to the Human Rights Act and commitment to abolishing it within the Conservative Party, and, on the other hand, the commitment of the Liberal Democrats to the very opposite. That is why the commission was set up.

I pay tribute to the fact that the Liberal Democrat end of the appointment process decided to make a broad church and invited in a judge from the European Court of Justice, who is not politically aligned, myself—a member of the Labour Party who sits on these Benches—and the noble Lord, Lord Lester, an academic and practitioner. There was a broader church on the Liberal Democrat end than I think there was on the Conservative end. We gave consideration to these issues over some 18 months.

Sensible Conservatives know that the European Convention on Human Rights has nothing to do with the European Union. However, I am afraid that there is a large number of the membership of the Conservative Party who do not seem to know that. Perhaps when we talk about doing some public education, we should start there.

Secondly, many sensible Conservatives know that it was, of course, Conservatives who drafted the European Convention on Human Rights. They should feel proud of that. I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, saying that those who drafted it would be concerned about the rather activist way in which law has developed. However, I would say to him that that is the nature of law. Society changes and develops, and so it is right that courts should take account of the way in which our societies evolve. Sensible Conservatives know that it is to Britain’s global credit that we are one of the leading nations promoting human rights. To in any way sacrifice that would be folly.

It has already been referred to that Philippe Sands and I were part of a minority who did not go with the general view of the commission that there should be a commitment to a British Bill of Rights. In fact, the word British, which was used when the commission started, was abandoned when it was pointed out to those who thought this up that a British Bill of Rights would send rather unsatisfactory messages to certain parts of the United Kingdom which prefer to be referred to under the rubric, United Kingdom. We changed the title of the commission to one looking at a UK Bill of Rights.

We entered into it, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, mentioned, on the understanding that there was a baseline, which was to accept and to build upon the European Convention on Human Rights. All I would say to the noble and learned Lord is that if one takes a closer look at the publication that was produced, one will find that reference to that baseline somehow gets lost in the writing up of the report, and that a number of people are not prepared to accept the European convention as a baseline.

Philippe Sands and I have written about this matter in a number of journals, including the London Review of Books. We started out with an open mind as to whether a UK Bill of Rights was needed and whether it was a good thing. We ended up with very strong views as to why we could not sign up to it. The main reason was that the case was not made. The evidence we took showed that, beyond the Daily Mail, the Daily Telegraph and the activist sections of the Conservative Party, up and down the country, particularly in the devolved nations, there was a great deal of support for the European Convention on Human Rights.

We also received a great deal of evidence. In fact, we had consultations on two occasions. After the first, there was the suggestion, “If you don’t like the first consultation’s answers, let’s have another one”. The second consultation reached the same conclusions: namely, that the general public, when invited to express their views, were supportive of the Human Rights Act and of being part of this greater fabric across Europe of protecting human rights.

We also took the view that we could not support this because the timing was absurd. A decision had just been made to have a referendum in Scotland on whether there should be independence for Scotland. To be rocking the boat and talking about, first, a British Bill of Rights, and then a UK Bill of Rights, did not seem an appropriate or sensible thing to be doing at this moment. Indeed, dependent on the outcome of that referendum, it may be that we will embark on a set of constitutional changes that would involve us having to look at all our arrangements. That might be a time when we could look at this again. It certainly is not timely at the moment.

The third matter for us was that there was very little thinking of the long-term implications constitutionally or, indeed, legally—as has been described so powerfully by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown—and of what it would mean for judges trying to interpret the law. We also felt very strongly, as the noble Lord, Lord Gold, powerfully explained, about how this would be seen around the world and read internationally.

I emphasise that as the commission continued with its deliberations, we became aware of the real motivations of some of our number: namely, that they feel so strongly about being part of the European system protecting human rights that they want to remove themselves from the European Court of Human Rights and the European convention, and that creating a British or UK Bill of Rights is a Trojan horse in order to have something in place in order to decouple from Europe.

Arguments were made about this being a rebranding exercise and that a new UK-type Bill of Rights would explain to the public better in language that they would know that it was nothing to do with Europe and was all about us. We were not persuaded that that was necessary. One only has to read a wonderful report from the British Academy on this subject to see why this is not an avenue down which we should go.

It was a convenient means to reduce rights, and a way of casting off Europe and returning to some delusional idyll of an earlier age of sovereign authority, unconstrained by obligations set out in international instruments. That was behind some of the motivations. We did not want to be party to that and lend our name to a document that was not going to be declaring its purposes as openly as it should.

The fault lines in the commission were real and deep. They related to the failure to grapple with the content of such a Bill and with what its real purposes were. The underlying desire was to decouple the United Kingdom from the European convention and the jurisprudence of the European Court. We were not prepared to go along with it. We see no benefit in creating a superficial consensus, which was why we made our separate entry in the report. We were also concerned that there was not enough emphasis on the benefits of the European convention. These benefits are important for Europe as a whole and for the United Kingdom. Individuals in 47 states can now take challenges to abuses of public power to an international court in Strasbourg. We should feel proud of being part of that.

At home, the convention has brought great benefits. For example, it has reinforced our commitment to due process in court proceedings. It has advanced children’s rights and the rights of the elderly in care homes. It has advanced freedom of expression and assembly, and protected individuals from unfair extradition. Perhaps most powerfully, it has reinforced the ban on torture and served as a source of international inspiration, which again are things that we should be so proud of.

We should keep in mind the way in which disregard of judgments flies in the face of the rule of law. For our Government to be talking about doing that is shameful. In the business, for example, of prisoners’ voting rights, the margin of appreciation meant that that could have been dealt with easily by providing the right to a postal vote to those on very short sentences. That would have satisfied honour in the European Court, but it is not how it is presented to the public in our tabloid press.

This is about a set of attitudes. At the heart of the differences on the commission were distinct beliefs about the reach and purposes of human rights. We were very separate. It was about the relationship between matters local, national and international. A UK Bill of Rights may seem harmless on the face of it and attractive at first sight, but alarm bells should be ringing for everybody who cares about human rights. For us, human rights are about working not just within our own country but with other countries to improve the human condition, engender respect for all individuals, protect those who are vulnerable and create the conditions for the delivery of justice and peace internationally.

To remove the glue that holds us together with other nations is dangerous. Our criticisms of the European Court should galvanise us to reform it, not cut ourselves off from it. I would say to the Liberal Democrats that the lesson for them is that there are some areas where you cannot do business with the Conservatives without selling your souls. That is what this commission has taught you. The message to you must be: here is the big divide. It should be the message to our nation as a whole. Human rights matter. They matter to all of us. Even to contemplate decoupling from this important way in which we join with Europe and the world in protecting human rights would be folly in the extreme. That was why Philippe Sands and I proudly distinguished ourselves from the rest of the commission. You cannot sign up for this, because it is about diminishing rights for the people who need them most.

15:39

[Lord Woolf]

My Lords, I too warmly congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lester, on his wisdom in selecting this subject for debate. I also acknowledge the contribution he has made to the development of human rights principles in this jurisdiction. He has been indefatigable in his efforts. He is part of the explanation for why we are in a situation today where the human rights principles that we have developed in this country are working reasonably satisfactorily, although there are undoubtedly problems.

It is a testimony to the noble Lord’s efforts that I can remember well the time when, appearing as an advocate and not in his role today, he educated the judiciary of this country as to the approach to human rights, which was not in accord with the way we traditionally used to approach legislation in particular. This was true of his advocacy in the highest court in the land, which, of course, at that time was part of this House.

I congratulate the commission on the report it has produced. It has been the subject of criticism by some but I venture to say that that criticism was not meant to detract from the fact that the commission is exemplary in the way it has conducted the process of consultation. It is also exemplary in the way that it has clearly explained the different opinions that its members hold and the way in which the issues are regarded by different parts of the community.

I have found it very difficult to decide whether I should agree with the majority opinion or the minority opinion and I am glad to say that today’s excellent debate has helped me in that matter. The report sets out the arguments against and in favour very clearly, but to hear them debated in the House in this way brings a new realism to me which I did not have before.

I see a situation where, excellent though the commission’s work is, there are serious dangers in approaching the matter in the way the majority have indicated in the report. That does not mean that the work of the report has been wasted. On the contrary, it is very important that the position of human rights is elevated into proper public debate. In saying that, I am not referring to some of the debate that takes place in the media for understandable reasons.

It is important, however, that the thinking public have an opportunity to see where the truth lies. I am not surprised that the attempts, when they are made, to assess the public’s opinion show that the position is rather different than a reading of the media, popular or otherwise, might lead you to believe. As often happens, the public are not so foolish as to think that a new Bill of Rights could achieve a position where we could disregard the European Convention on Human Rights, to which this country has adhered as far back as 1950.

It is important to understand that human rights are different from rights set out in ordinary legislation. They are fundamental to the way of life of this country—indeed, I would go so far as to say of all countries that purport to or do adhere to the rule of law. What is special about the rule of law is that when it talks of that subject it is, in my understanding, talking about those rules which should govern societies in general. The way they are applied and interpreted in different jurisdictions does not mean that they are better observed in one jurisdiction than another or less observed in one country than another. The rule of law requires that a society adheres to basic principles—principles which are the source of the European convention and many other conventions. They are the source of justice, the source of fairness, the source of proportionality and the source of many other matters that make our society one that up to now has been respected in many parts of the globe.

I have had the good fortune to be called upon to make two reports in regard to the European Court of Human Rights and can say I am fairly familiar with the standards it has adopted. This country, together with the Council of Europe, invited me to make a report when I ceased to be Lord Chief Justice, one of the first activities I had at that stage. In the course of it I interviewed individually most of the judges on that court, looked at various procedures and was well aware of the huge backlog of cases that they had. I found that the more I talked to those judges, the more impressed I became. I was convinced that they were concerned about the same things with regard to justice that I would expect a British or United Kingdom judge to be concerned about. Within the confines of a system they were called upon to administer, they did their very best to achieve the results which they were required to achieve in order to honour the principles set out in the European convention. Of course some of the decisions would be popular and some unpopular. I am afraid that that is true of a judge’s job. It has certainly been true of my period as a judge, when some of the decisions I made were extremely unpopular.

[Lord Spicer]

The noble and learned Lord is talking about basic principles. Does he have on or off his list retrospection as practised by the legal profession during the expenses affair in the Commons?

[Lord Woolf]

I am afraid I find it difficult to fit that in with what I am going to say as it is not on my agenda this afternoon. I hope the noble Lord will forgive me if I do not try to deal with that although I can see why he raises the matter. The issue of those expenses and the way they were dealt with—the principles of general fairness, honesty and integrity—are the sort of matters which human rights can reflect.

Taking up where I left off, the recommendations which I made on that first occasion were adopted by the European Court which did its best to do what it could with them. The second commission—and bearing in mind that I was on it, it was probably misappropriately described as the commission of the wise men—consisted of 10 people from different jurisdictions. I mention it to declare an interest, but more importantly to point out that although those 10 members were drawn from different nations, they all struggled to work together to produce results that would be beneficial to the court. They could not complete their task in so far as they were not in a position to provide an answer to all the problems. Those problems remain although they have been helped by what happened in Brighton recently and the declaration made there. The important point is that, despite the load of problems that the court has, the situation is better today than it has been for a long time.

I listened with great care to what the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, said about cost. I wish to mention two things. The judges to whom I talked in that court were at one in saying that the very best advocates who came before it were drawn from the United Kingdom legal profession. They were unstinting in their praise of our advocates who they said were so good at understanding the real core of human rights. However, they added that the cost of those advocates was totally disproportionate when compared with that of advocates drawn from other jurisdictions. Indeed, our advocates, of whom we are proud, are 10 times more expensive. Therefore, we need to be rather sensitive about criticising other countries’ costs.

We also have to be cautious about criticising the costs of the European Court, which deals with cases very economically. It is the quantity of cases that generates the costs. I have not done it but if you were to work out the cost of a case before a court here and the court in Strasbourg, I am afraid that it would reflect adversely on this jurisdiction. That is why we are introducing new methods of tackling costs in this jurisdiction because, unfortunately, our costs are so large. Therefore, I do not see that we can justify criticising the European Court on the ground of cost.

I apologise but I want to say one or two words more. If your Lordships will bear with me, I will deal with them as quickly as I can. My belief is that we must work towards obtaining the public’s confidence. The only argument in favour of a British Bill of Rights is that it would improve the public’s confidence in this area. If we do not succeed in doing that, the future of human rights in this country will be at risk. It is at risk at the moment and we must do everything which is practical and possible to ensure that the British public take possession of human rights and regard them as singling this country out as being pre-eminent on issues of fairness and justice. If they recognise that this is a relevant issue, this country has hope for the future. If they do not, this country is very much at risk of relinquishing its legal excellence.

15:55

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, as one who was at school with the noble Lord, Lord Lester, I can share with this House the fact that there was absolutely no doubt whatever among his contemporaries as students, or indeed the staff at the time, that he was going to make a powerful contribution to the future of this country. The fact that he has made it in the context of the realm of human rights is something from which a lot of us take a great deal of joy and satisfaction.

I have just indicated and underlined my age. At the age of 13, my father took me with him to an international conference he was organising in Geneva. At that conference, I had the privilege of meeting Eleanor Roosevelt and I had the pleasure of listening to Eleanor Roosevelt. As I listened to this debate and the anxieties that have been expressed, I reflect on the huge gap between life as it is today and life as it was in the immediate aftermath of the Second World War. There was a passionate conviction which gave her her strength and power, together with all those working with her, that human rights were not just a moral option in the way you organised your society. With all the searing experience of the human suffering of the Second World War, human rights were an absolutely essential and indispensable pillar of a stable and secure society. We have somehow lost that underlying basic philosophy and conviction. Discussion is all about the management of human rights, the operation of human rights law and the rest. We cannot repeat that conviction too often.

If I am allowed to draw on personal experience, as someone who has no legal qualifications whatever, but as somebody who has spent most of his life working in the humanitarian sphere outside this House, I can say that pretty well every month of every year in my practical work, I have seen again and again the crucial importance of human rights to the cause of improving the well-being and potential of our fellow human beings across the world.

I declare an interest as a member of the advisory board of the London School of Economics Centre for the Study of Human Rights. I think, and I say this sometimes at meetings of the board, that we have to take seriously the criticism that is sometimes loosely used about the human rights industry. To some people, there is a perception which we have to examine that there is a human rights industry—the chance of academic prowess and postgraduate degrees, a preoccupation with much legal discussion about it all, and the rest. It seems to me that we need to reconnect—that has come across in this debate very well—the whole cause and indispensability of human rights to real experiences and the real lives of people. That is an argument for a Bill of Rights which cannot just be dismissed. As I understand it as a layman, the strength of law at its best is when it underpins an ethic which is broadly there in society. It will never bring everybody on board, but an ethic is substantially there among people instinctively that this is the kind of society in which they want to live. This law underpins that reality and helps those who want to distort or abuse it to be dealt with.

It seems to me that a gap has developed here because people do not feel they own human rights law. They see people, as it were, operating downstream in the context of the human rights law that has been created. It is very important to go back to source and reargue the case for human rights and their indispensability. We have to look at that, of course, in the context of our educational system and elsewhere, and look at how seriously we are taking discussion and debate about human rights, and why they are so important, in our educational system. As the noble Lord, Lord Lester, will remember, we were both involved in the Council for Education in World Citizenship in those days. It was a very lively body of sixth-formers across the country with the whole cause of preparing for citizenship. Taking these things seriously was central to our preoccupations. The Christmas holiday lectures were packed. I am talking about the enthusiasm, commitment and integrity of someone such as Eleanor Roosevelt and the passion that she brought to this because of her experience of the war years.

I apologise if I am reminiscing too much, but this is important because these were the formative years. I recall that, slightly precociously, we had a youth parliament in the constituency in which I lived as a youngster. In that youth parliament, by our own choice, we took the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and set about deciding and discussing how we would put it into action in our own society. These things were vivid in the culture at the time. There has been a certain amount of subjective interpretation about history, even in this debate. I can remember that there were Conservatives then who shared this concern and passion every bit as strongly as I did as a member of the Labour League of Youth. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, emphasised, there seems to be a real need to regenerate this cause of human rights and to highlight their indispensability for society.

There is another issue. If I have come to one conclusion in the course of my life, it is that the first reality for all of us is that, from the day we are born, we live in a totally interdependent global community. I worry about any action on our part in this country that undermines that understanding and reality. It seems very important, in a realm as crucial as human rights, that we have objectives, aspirations and convictions towards which we try to encourage all our fellow citizens across the world community to strive. If we start a process which begins to suggest that human rights are things that you look at in a national context and put first into your national culture, I wonder how far we are helping the world to face up to this reality of interdependence and making a really constructive and imaginative contribution to the emergence of a better society and better values.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, talked about the rule of law and its importance. As a layman, I know that I want to live in a society which observes the rule of law. However, there is a huge debate about what that law should be. It seems to me that what we are all seeking is justice. What matters is how we strengthen the debate about what justice is and how justice should be reflected in the law—it is not just about having a rule of law, it is about ensuring that the rule of law reflects the cause of justice, of which human rights are a part. Sometimes I wonder whether we have to use the term “human rights”—which has become so stereotyped—and to what extent we are really not just talking about justice.

I am afraid that you cannot look at this debate, and the possibilities for change, without examining the context of the dynamic in which it takes place. It would certainly be very naive to try to do that. If I am allowed to make so bold, noble Lords in this debate have been a little cautious about facing up to some of the crude realities here. I wonder whether people in years to come will see it as altogether a coincidence that, at a time when we have the reassertion of rather crude and unpleasant nationalist populism, there is debate about whether we could have a Bill of Rights for Britain.

Are the dynamics surrounding that exercise going to be about justice and the cause of humanity, and how far are they going to be about “Let us run Britain in a British way”—whatever we mean by Britain and a British way—with which everyone is expected to conform but which does not necessarily represent the realities of our society and the creative potential of our society as a multicultural society? This is a huge debate and we should not drift into it inadvertently. Debates like this are absolutely indispensable and I thank the noble Lord for having initiated it.

It has been a privilege for me to listen to so many wise speeches. I am a great friend and ally of my noble friend Lady Kennedy. I hope she will forgive me saying that I was not really very happy with her seeming to imply that there were no Conservatives who care about human rights and the things I have been talking about every bit as much as I do. In the noble Lord, Lord Gold, we have a classic example of a Conservative who not only feels these things but feels them so sincerely and deeply that he can express himself very well in a debate of this kind, in a way that is quite challenging to a lot of other people.

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws]

That cannot go unchallenged. I think that my noble and very dear friend Lord Judd, when he sees my remarks in Hansard, will see that I referred all the way through to the sensible Conservatives who recognise the value of human rights and realise that they are different from the European Union. I paid tribute to them all, and indeed paid tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Gold.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Baroness and I will continue this discussion in many places for long weeks ahead because we are very good friends. I certainly accept her qualification about the words she used. She also suggested rather that it was the Conservative Party with which it was impossible to do business. The society I want to live in by definition is one in which the Conservative Party is as committed to the things I am talking about as anybody else. We should be strengthening the elements within the Conservative Party who share our convictions and speeding the day when we can all speak together. Again, I say we should all be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lester.

16:07

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, particularly, of course, the noble Lord, Lord Lester, for securing the debate and for attracting a stellar cast to speak, even rather late on a Thursday afternoon in the middle of June. I am certainly not one of those stars. I have comparatively little history, either as lawyer or politician, with regard to the Human Rights Act or the convention. However, it is an honour for me to speak from the opposition Front Bench on this occasion and I, too, pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Lester, for his well deserved reputation, mentioned by many noble Lords, in this field.

I start with a quotation from another memorable debate in your Lordships’ House, held exactly 25 months ago on 19 May 2011, when my noble and learned friend Lord Irvine of Lairg led a debate on the ECHR, with many of the same cast as today, and answered, as today, by the noble Lord, Lord McNally. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, ended his contribution with these words:

“I consider the Human Rights Act 1998 to be the outstanding piece of legislation of the previous Labour Government”.

He went on to say, and we must give him allowance for this,

“next to the Government of Wales Act 1998. I congratulate the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, not simply on introducing the debate but on being the architect of an important piece in the structure of justice in our country”.—[Official Report, 19/5/11; col. 1501.]

That was a generous but well merited comment from the noble Lord, and a well merited compliment to my noble and learned friend as well.

This year marks the 25th anniversary of the establishment of Charter 88, many of the aspirations of which were adopted by my party in the early 1990s and then put into effect by the Government from 1997 on. Who says that pressure groups cannot achieve results? According to Professor Bogdanor the constitutional achievements of the Labour Government, ranging from the Human Rights Act to devolution, freedom of information, the creation of the Supreme Court, and much more, represent a formidable list. He may go too far when he says that it was an era of constitutional reform comparable to that of the years of the Great Reform Act 1832 or the Parliament Act 1911. However, even more impressive is the amount of power that was given away by some of these measures by that Labour Government. For example, the Human Rights Act gave power to individuals, the national states were given power by devolution and the judiciary was given power by the difference between the role of the Lord Chief Justice and that of the Lord Chancellor and by the creation of the Supreme Court. Professor Bogdanor went on to say that no British Government since World War II had dispersed power to the same extent.

Speaking from the Opposition Front Bench, I am proud of that record. It made our country a fairer, more open and better place to live. We were supported in all this—certainly for the most part—both in argument and votes by the Minister’s party, the Liberal Democrats. Both party manifestos for the 2010 general election talked about support for the Human Rights Act; the Liberal Democrats’ manifesto talked about protecting the Human Rights Act. It is therefore hardly surprising that when the Liberal Democrats found themselves in a coalition Government they had to think hard and quickly about how to prevent the Human Rights Act and the ECHR behind it being savaged by their coalition partner during the course of this Parliament.

Make no mistake: both before 2010 and since being in power, of course not all Conservatives but many of their leaders have regularly and systematically tried to trash both the convention and the Human Rights Act. They have often used language—perhaps sometimes to placate their anti-European supporters—that has sometimes, though not always, been a disgrace to a great party.

Rather unusually for me, I will pay a compliment to Liberal Democrat Ministers in this Government, and not least—in fact, probably for the most part—to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, for the manner in which he, along with others, has successfully prevented the Conservatives from carrying out constitutional mayhem during this Parliament. I do not know whose idea a commission on the Bill of Rights originally was, and who put together the personnel. However, if the aim was to kick these proposals deep into the long grass, it appears to have succeeded.

I pay tribute to all members and staff of the commission, particularly its chairman, for giving up so much of their valuable time to its work. Many of its members were busy and distinguished Queen’s Counsel, while others had other important obligations. They deserve our thanks; not least the chairman, who has already been described in Job-like terms and whose distinguished career in public service must have helped him in an almost impossible task. However—and I suspect that the House might have expected a “however” at this stage—it is surely fair to ask whether it was really worth all the time and effort to produce two large volumes of a report in effect to solve a political problem?

Where do the various and myriad conclusions lead us? What is the value of the so-called majority view, when it includes a number who clearly and honestly objected to the terms of reference and want us to be free of the convention? I admit that I do not completely understand the position of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, who is himself one of the architects of the Human Rights Act. When reading the 31—

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. I wonder whether he agrees that it is core Labour Party policy since 1993 that a Human Rights Act is the first step, and a Bill of Rights the second. That was agreed by Labour in 1993, and as far as I am aware it is still Labour Party policy.

[Lord Bach]

As I understand it, the Human Rights Act is considered by some to be a British Bill of Rights in any event. However, I do not want to take issue with the noble Lord. I am here to praise him rather than criticise him. As I was going to say, when reading the 31 pages of the overview of volume 1, one can almost physically feel the strain in the language as it attempts desperately to find consensus where there is none. The majority view has been described as representing,

“a fragile coalition of views united around conceptions of a domestic Bill of Rights so different from one another as to render any consensus wholly illusory”.

These are the words of Mark Elliott, a reader in politics at the University of Cambridge, whose article is entitled, A Damp Squib in the Long Grass. This is perhaps a little harsh, but I think one senses what he is getting at. No wonder Professor Fenwick at the University of Durham described the document, perhaps rather generously, as “odd”. For me, the paper In Defence of Rights, by my noble friend Lady Kennedy and Professor Sands, is more persuasive. It destroys the confused majority view with a pretty well argued, moderate and sensible position.

The commission report has of course effectively stymied any change until after the 2015 general election. It is only when we know the result of that election and what will follow from it that we can realistically move forward. I would expect the Liberal Democrats to be every bit as robust in their defence of the Human Rights Act as I hope my party will also be.

I want to end on a perhaps rather less consensual note. I am afraid that the Liberal Democrats’ effective defence of the Human Rights Act and the convention is in marked contrast to the feebleness and lack of concern for the individual citizen evident in their acquiescence to—and sometimes even welcome for—some of the more reactionary measures that Her Majesty’s Government have recently taken. I of course refer to the restrictions either passed or proposed on judicial review, the no-win no-fee policy, and the position that private firms doing public work on public contracts may be exempt from freedom of information. Above all, I must say, it is evident in the decimation of social welfare law by taking it outside the scope of legal aid. It is no answer to say that citizens are still able in theory to go to law, because the reality is that without free legal advice, the poor and the marginalised in practice cannot go to law. Human rights exist outside the Human Rights Act. By limiting and restricting the ability of the citizen to take on the state, the Liberal Democrats are colluding in particularly anti-liberal acts.

I conclude by saying to the Minister that he has nobly protected the Human Rights Act in very difficult circumstances and that his part of the Government deserves great credit for that. Now is the time to protect the interests of individual citizens who need to take on the state. They, too, like those protected by the Human Rights Act, are an essential part of those who live in a free society.

16:20

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, they say that they never come back, and yet there is the noble Lord, Lord Bach, back on the Front Bench in fine, feisty form, taking on a kind of Dame Nellie Melba role in the number of questions that he asks. He has also tabled a Question for me to answer in a few days’ time. The rather emotional goodbyes that I bid him a few months ago were perhaps premature. Although some of his closing themes were familiar from our debates over the past two years, I shall not follow him down that path, because we will have other opportunities to do so.

I was grateful for the tribute that the noble Lord paid to the Cook-Maclennan reforms. Certainly, the success of that first Labour Government from 1997 to 2001 owed very much, as my noble friend Lord Lester said, to that blueprint setting out much of the constitutional reform during that period. I believe that when future historians come to review that period, they will agree that that burst of quite extraordinary reform started to peter out only when the Government departed from the Cook-Maclennan blueprint and began increasingly to rely on ideas usually prepared on the back of an envelope by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and the noble Lord, Lord Prescott.

This has been an excellent debate. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith—the late Lord Goldsmith—posed the question, “Which human rights are you planning to repeal?”. It is a legitimate question to ask those who seek change. The debate was made all the healthier by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, who produced with characteristic clarity what I would call the case for the prosecution. He asked specifically whether membership of the EU and membership of the European Convention on Human Rights were compatible—whether we could withdraw from one without affecting our membership of the other—particularly given the ECHR case to which he referred. My officials advise me that this is a moot point. I find it to be an extraordinarily moot point, because I have always understood that one of the qualifications for membership of the EU was observance of the European Convention on Human Rights.

In recent years, I have had the opportunity to visit a number of countries that, in working towards membership of the European Union, have been set high hurdles by the EU in terms of human rights observance. One of the great triumphs of the EU is how, by insisting on those high hurdles, it has moved human rights eastwards across Europe. On 1 July, we celebrate the latest addition to the European Union, Croatia. After a terrible war, it has been the European Union and its insistence on high standards in the rule of law that have prepared Croatia for its rightful place in the European family, a family that is resting on the ECHR.

I understand the points about how human rights have suffered by appearing to delve into trivialities. However, as a number of speakers have pointed out, the media often attribute to human rights reasoning and causes that have nothing to do with the actual Human Rights Act. This is rather like health and safety and data protection legislation, which I also support. When the media talk about a pancake race that has been cancelled by health and safety rules, I like to count the number of deaths that have been prevented on building sites by those rules. That is when these rules bite. Similarly, we only have to open the newspaper every day to realise how important data protection rules are in a modern society.

I welcomed the spirited exposition of the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, which stimulated responses in others, and I will try to cover a number of the issues that were raised. I was extremely grateful for the intervention of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, because he counterpointed the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, in warning us of the complexities of trying to write a UK Bill of Rights. There is always a danger that, if you make a speech that is slightly out of step with your party, everybody else praises you, so I hope that it does not do the career of the noble Lord, Lord Gold, too much damage to say that I found his intervention extremely helpful with its warning of a backward step and reference to the problem of public understanding.

The noble Lord, Lord Bach, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, both seemed to imply that there was some secret about the origins of the Bill of Rights commission. This Government were formed as a coalition between two parties that have, in recent years, taken a different view about the Human Rights Act and the part that the European Court in Strasbourg, and the European Convention on Human Rights it interprets, should play in our national law. The response of the new coalition Government was twofold. We established the commission, of which the noble Lord, Lord Lester, was a distinguished member, as was the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, and the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, and we embarked on a programme of reform of the Strasbourg court that culminated in the Brighton declaration.

I have also said that I do not consider the Human Rights Act to be a precious vase, to be kept on a high shelf, never to be taken down or examined for fear of breaking it. I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, that well informed debate about human rights is extremely healthy. I welcome, particularly in this House, our periodic examination of human rights and their place in our society—the noble Lord, Lord Bach, referred to the one such review led by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, a couple of years ago.

I hope that the House will keep on returning to this subject, because, like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, I remain confident that such an examination invariably concludes with a reaffirmation of human rights as something deep in the political DNA of the British people and of our history. The noble Lord, Lord Lester, reminded us of the relevance of Magna Carta, the 800th anniversary of which we celebrate in 2015. That linkage between our history and the growth of the concept of human rights was underlined, as the noble Lord, Lord Judd, reminded us, when Eleanor Roosevelt launched the UN Declaration of Human Rights and called it a,

“Magna Carta for all mankind”.

The world needed no explanation of what she meant. She was part of that “never again” generation who had experienced the horrors of when state power goes unchecked and human rights are subjugated to the power of the state or some perverted political doctrine. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, is right: that generation, whether it be the noble Lord, Lord Healey, or Ted Heath, or others who came back from that war, had a “never again” determination that impacted on the legislation that they brought forward and the themes that they espoused.

Let us be clear that human rights and civil liberties are not some foreign invention. They are deeply rooted in the history of the people of this country. Upholding them should be a source of national pride. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, and the noble Lord, Lord Gold, pointed out, too many people do not fully comprehend the impact of human rights on their daily lives, and myths and misreporting about human rights are often accepted as fact. If we look beyond the sometimes skewed perceptions, we see that the Act is a measured piece of legislation when understood and used properly. The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, cited some very good examples of human rights in action and I could give others. As the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, said, human rights are not a matter of abstractions; they are about realities. It is not an airy-fairy notion reserved for philosophy seminars but the practical interaction between the state and its agencies and those they should serve.

The message from this debate is that it is your human rights, my human rights, our human rights. Perhaps that could be no better illustrated than by the fact that, when the Daily Mail felt that it was under attack by Lord Justice Leveson, the editor cited his human rights in protection. For me, it proved that there must be a God.

While reflecting on judgments, we should note our actual Strasbourg record. As the noble Lord, Lord Lester, reminded us, the number of applications involving the UK that resulted in a judgment by the European Court of Human Rights is small. In 2012, there were only 10 judgments finding violations against the United Kingdom out of over 3,300 applications. Our record on implementation of judgments is generally good: from March 2010 to May 2013, the United Kingdom completed the implementation of 82 judgments, with just 22 outstanding. One highlight of my ministerial career was when, in May 2012, I sat in front of the United Nations Human Rights Council in Geneva being held to account for the UK’s human rights record.

The UPR mechanism offers the Government real opportunities to consult civil society organisations and our national human rights institutions. Through open discussion with them, we build an understanding of where we should focus our efforts on key human rights issues; this dialogue allows them to monitor our progress. We have also gone digital. On top of stakeholder events, everyone now can send us online submissions via our website. All this ensures that we remain connected to, and aware of, human rights issues as they affect real people. We aim to use the information gathered from our engagement with civil society and through online submissions to help to shape how we respond to the United Nations in our mid-term review next summer. This approach pays dividends in engaging people in human rights. It helps us to focus our efforts and enables civil society to monitor our progress. Generally, our approach to the review was one of openness, celebrating success where we can but being receptive to challenge. We have had very positive feedback from civil society organisations in the UK on our engagement strategy.

Also in May, the United Kingdom was examined against our obligations under the United Nations Convention Against Torture. We will consider the recommendations carefully before responding. That was a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks. It is not just a matter of the ECHR. In a world of interdependability, we are part of a whole range of conventions and commitments, by which we test Governments’ behaviour.

As I said, undergoing such scrutiny is necessary and proper to ensure that the United Kingdom is fulfilling its obligations under the Human Rights Act and that the Act itself is fit for purpose. It was with this in mind that the Government put forward plans for the Commission on a Bill of Rights. On behalf of the Government, I express thanks once again for the dedicated work of all those associated with the commission, culminating in the publication of its final report. Like others, I pay particular tribute to Sir Leigh Lewis, as chairman of that commission. My view is that the only job that he is otherwise qualified for is leading the Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords, because he has all the same attributes, as we have seen today—he had some fairly big personalities to keep in check.

I remind the House of some of the commission’s key conclusions. A majority of the commission concluded that there is a strong argument in favour of a UK Bill of Rights. However, that was on the basis that any such Bill would need to incorporate and build on all the UK’s existing obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights and that it would provide no less protection than is currently contained both in the Human Rights Act and in the devolution settlements. Both the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, and my noble friend Lord Gold made powerful arguments about whether that was the right way forward. This finding was in line with the commission’s terms of reference. The majority saw the current lack of public ownership of the Human Rights Act and the European Convention on Human Rights as the most compelling reason in favour of a new Bill of Rights. However, as my noble friend Lord Gold reminded us, even if it were to be carried through, it might not solve this problem of public understanding and acceptance.

Some of those in the majority who favoured a Bill of Rights felt that any new Bill could usefully define the scope of some rights more clearly and adjust their balance. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, has told us, she and Philippe Sands concluded that the commission’s consultations and its deliberations had failed to identify any real shortcomings either in the existing Human Rights Act or in the way in which it is applied to the domestic courts. They were concerned that any move towards a Bill of Rights would lessen the rights protection that is currently available and would potentially be a first step towards the United Kingdom withdrawing from the European Convention on Human Rights.

Although the commission was unable to reach agreement on all its conclusions, it identified and reported issues that would need careful consideration before any changes were made to the UK’s legal framework for human rights. I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Bach, and some of the distinguished academics. I think that any political party looking forward and working on its policy on this issue, and any Parliament looking at it, will find the commission’s work an exercise in ground-clearing and testing of arguments that will stand us in good stead for the future.

My noble friend Lord Maclennan reminded us, as did the commission, of the background against which this discussion is taking place. Next year we will definitely have to make a very clear decision about the future of this United Kingdom. The evidence showed—and there was unanimity on this—that to discuss any changes to the Human Rights Act before we have made that fundamental decision about the union would not be very sensible or constructive.

It is interesting to note in passing that, although we think that perhaps the other place is more hostile and more populist, when a 10-minute rule Bill to repeal the Human Rights Act was put forward in the other place by Richard Bacon MP last December, it was defeated by 195 votes to 75. I just do not believe it is true that there is some great populist seething hostility to the Act. I think the more that people understand it and the more it is put to them in positive terms, the more support there is for it.

My noble friend Lord Maclennan and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, both mentioned the Brighton declaration. I am very proud of what we did at Brighton—I think that we addressed some very real problems. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, mentioned his own work in suggesting ways in which the effectiveness and efficiency of the court could be improved. I hope that there is good news for him. Better late than never, at the recent meeting in Strasbourg the court accepted a number of the recommendations in the noble and learned Lord’s report. I would not presume to suggest that the legal system sometimes moves very slowly, but it gets there in the end. On Monday, our ambassador in Strasbourg will, on behalf of the UK, sign Protocol 15 to the convention, which implements the amendments to the convention agreed in the Brighton declaration. We are continuing to press for reforms of the Strasbourg court in a way that we think will give it better credibility and lead to greater efficiency. However, I entirely share the opinion of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, that this is a matter where we can achieve change and improvement, although this is work in progress.

Looking forward, as I said, I do not believe that this Government or this country have anything to apologise for in their record on upholding human rights. Nor do I think that at heart there is fundamental disagreement on the need to uphold human rights and the rule of law. I tend to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Judd: I do not want to pin party labels on this matter. We have, as I said, concepts of human rights that are rooted deep in our history and deep in our national psyche. Let us not be afraid of debating human rights with vigour and candour. However, let us do so in a way that also takes account of the very real leadership role that we play in this area. The world does look and listen when we debate these issues, so let us be sure that we are sending it the right messages.

I applaud the way in which the Foreign Secretary has used soft diplomacy and consistency of message to promote and support human rights around the world. Both my noble friend Lord Faulks and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, referred to the fact that we carry weight and influence in these matters. The Foreign Secretary can promote human rights because our own reputation for observing and promoting human rights still stands high. However, observing and upholding human rights is always work in progress.

In his closing remarks, my noble friend Lord Lester referred to the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta in 2015. Although she is not in her place at the moment, a few weeks ago the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay, reminded me of something that was a surprise to me. Those gentlemen up there who look down on our deliberations are the Barons of Runnymede. They remind us of the 800-year journey that this country has taken in setting limits to the power of the state and the responsibility that we all bear to uphold what the late Lord Bingham referred to as the spirit of Magna Carta. I think that that is what we have been doing today and I thank my noble friend Lord Lester and all noble Lords who have taken part in what has been a debate of great quality in the best traditions of this House.

I am extremely proud to be the Human Rights Minister in this Government. I work very closely with my colleague Damian Green on this matter. This has been a healthy debate. I suspect that the next stage of it, as far as any legislation is concerned, will depend on the outcome of the next general election—it will be incumbent on all the political parties to take their views on the Human Rights Act and its future to the hustings. I think that I know where we will be and I look forward to this ongoing debate.

16:44

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

My Lords, it is customary to thank all speakers who have taken part in a debate of this kind. I must say that I found this a most remarkable debate that will be read abroad as well as in this country. It will be remembered, I am sure, in the future, as will the report of this commission.

For me, one of the most ingenious excuses for arriving late, on which I congratulate the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, was that it did not matter because he knew exactly what I was going to say as he had heard it all before. Alas, that is probably true. I worked for 30 years to accomplish the Human Rights Act and I am hardly likely to be one of those who would advocate tearing it up.

However, I will ask the conservatives, with a small “c”, in this debate—which was most noble Lords, I think, except the noble Lord, Lord Judd—to think about one thing. We are the only country, among the 47, that uses a European treaty rather than a domestic constitutional instrument to protect our basic rights and freedoms. For us the question is, is something incompatible with the European treaty? For the rest of Europe and most of the Commonwealth, the question is, is this incompatible with our constitutional rights? The question that the report poses, and that has been debated this afternoon, is whether we command more public confidence by relying on the European treaty, or whether, as the Labour Party agreed in 1993, the first step should be incorporating the convention by statute, but that that should be followed by the second step of a constitutional instrument? As I think everyone has said, that question can only be answered after the Scottish referendum. I hope that in June 2015, two years from now, when we mark the anniversary of Magna Carta and its Scottish equivalent, we will strive to ensure that it will be an occasion to celebrate what has been achieved and to build on those achievements, not to weaken them. I am grateful to all noble Lords.

Motion agreed.

National Health Service (Direct Payments) (Repeal of Pilot Schemes Limitation) Order 2013

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Motion to Approve

16:47

Moved By

[Earl Howe]

That the draft order laid before the House on 22 April be approved.

Relevant document: 1st Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)]

My Lords, in 2009 we debated piloting direct payments for healthcare as part of the wider personal health budget pilot programme. Personal health budgets allow people to have choice and control over the care and support that they receive. A care plan is drawn up between individuals and their healthcare professionals, which is person-centred and designed to allow them to access care that works in the best way for them. It is already possible to offer personal health budgets where the money is held by the NHS or by a third party, but direct payments would allow personal health budgets to be held by the individual in the form of cash sent directly to their bank account, albeit one separate to their own personal funds.

Direct payments—and, indeed, personal health budgets more widely—are new to the NHS and we wanted the pilots to explore whether they would be beneficial. We wanted to find out which people and services were likely to benefit most and how we should implement them in order to get the best results. The pilot programme ran from 2009 to 2012 and I am delighted to report that the independent evaluation of that programme supports the wider use of direct payments in healthcare.

I will spend a few minutes talking about what the evaluation and the learning from the pilot programme tell us about direct payments for healthcare and personal health budgets more widely. The evaluation demonstrated that personal health budgets were most beneficial for people who had higher levels of health needs. In particular, it identified benefits to people with long-term physical or mental health conditions and disabilities who access the NHS most frequently. For these people, having real choice and control over how to manage their budget to meet their individual needs is a key factor in how they handle their own condition and improve their quality of life.

The most important element of our debate today is the discussion around whether we should take a step further and allow direct payments for healthcare as a new option for people who have or want personal health budgets, building on the success of the pilots. If the House agrees with the principle, secondary regulations, which will be laid before the Summer Recess, will set out the rules for the making of direct payments for healthcare.

The current debate focuses on direct payments for healthcare because this is the only part of the personal health budgets policy that requires legislative change. The other two ways to manage personal health budgets, where money is held by the NHS or alternatively by a third party, are currently lawful. However, direct payments for healthcare are a great deal more than money in lieu of NHS services. They are designed to allow people more flexibility and control over how their health needs are met.

The pilot programme showed that the success of direct payments for healthcare is dependent on good-quality, personal, holistic planning. The secondary regulations set out that individual care plans must be agreed before a direct payment can be approved. Importance is placed on the development of the plan being led by the individual or their carers, or a collaboration of both, using the right information and support. It should bring together their knowledge and experience of what works for them alongside clinical knowledge and expertise. The role that healthcare professionals play is still vital, but the conversation between the individual and specialists involved in their care should be a different, more real partnership.

So where does the NHS constitution fit into all this? It is vital, as we are absolutely clear that the budget must meet the full cost of the care and support agreed in the plan. NHS care provided through a direct payment for healthcare remains comprehensive care, free at the point of delivery, based on need rather than on ability to pay. This means no top-ups.

In the vast majority of cases, direct payments for healthcare will continue to be used on traditional care and support. However, a personal budget will give people the freedom to set arrangements that work for them. For example, people will be able to employ their own carers. In these circumstances, they will have greater control over who comes into their home, when they are scheduled to come and what tasks care staff perform. This can make a real difference to people’s lives and to their families’ lives by encouraging them to organise care that is more appropriate for their needs and the lifestyle they wish to lead. It is crucial to note, however, that direct payments for healthcare are not about new money; they simply allow people to use money already being spent on their care in a different way.

The NHS provides a huge range of care, support and treatment, and it would not be appropriate to include all NHS services in direct payments. Secondary regulations will set out what services should be excluded from a direct payment for healthcare. These will include, for instance, GP services, as we believe that disruption to the holistic care currently provided by a GP would be detrimental.

In addition, we do not think that it is appropriate to include the costs of unplanned care in a direct payment for healthcare. This would include things such as a visit to accident and emergency or admissions to hospital. However, it is important to point out that the evaluation of the pilot programme suggests that people with personal health budgets use secondary care services less. We are therefore confident that there is merit in giving people budgets to help them access care and support which works for them and prevents their unnecessary admission into hospital. Everyone will be able to reap the benefits as individuals will experience a more infrequent need for acute care and the overall cost of care for each individual will decrease, meaning an overall saving to the public purse.

Another area where we do not think that the use of direct payment for healthcare would add value is payment for medication. Deciding what medication an individual requires is a core responsibility of GPs and it should remain that way. This is currently dealt with using a two-stage process whereby a GP gives a prescription and pays for the cost of the medicine, and the individual then contributes with their prescription fee. We do not believe that direct payments should be used for either stage, or for any other area where NHS charges apply.

There may be concerns surrounding the proper or improper use of funds, or people’s needs not being met. In order to monitor this, there will be periodic reviews to ensure that the care and support being delivered are meeting the individual’s needs. In the case of direct payments for healthcare, these reviews will include a financial review to ensure that the money is being used appropriately. The details of what the review should entail will be set in the secondary regulations and explained to the individual as part of the care-planning process.

The evidence from the pilot programme suggests that people spend their money as set out in the individual care plan. What is more, they were happy to give money back if it was not needed. However, safeguards will be written into the secondary regulations to ensure that action can be taken where there is an excess that people are reticent to return, or where fraud has occurred.

In implementing direct payments for healthcare we are keen to ensure that integration between health and social care is taken into account. There are a few differences between direct payments for healthcare and direct payments provided by local authorities to fund social care. For example, the latter rely on means-testing, whereas direct payments for healthcare do not. Nevertheless, where possible the policy and regulations for direct payments for healthcare mirror those for social care. This will help to facilitate integration across health and social care. In future, it is intended that adults who have both health and social care needs could have a joint plan and budget.

I will now turn briefly to the issue of who should be able to have a direct payment for healthcare. We do not believe that such a payment would be appropriate for everyone who uses NHS services, or for all the services that an individual may use. The founding principle is that there needs to be a benefit from having a direct payment and that this should outweigh any additional costs. The evaluation suggests that those with higher health needs and inevitably larger budgets benefit most.

I make it clear that direct payments for healthcare will always be voluntary. No one will be forced to have one or be asked to take more control than they would find comfortable. However, where they add value and the individual is interested in using them, the right information and support should be made available so that people can make informed choices about how they wish to proceed. The need for information and support is intrinsic to this entire process, and this will be set out in the secondary regulations.

The pilot programme and the evaluation that followed provided evidence that the concept of direct payments for healthcare is beneficial and cost effective if properly implemented. Nevertheless, we accept that there is still much to learn and that we are only at the beginning of the journey. Therefore, it is important that direct payments for healthcare are introduced gradually and in a way that guarantees the sustainability of the programme. As of April 2014, people receiving NHS continuing healthcare will have a right to request a personal health budget and direct payments. It is thereafter anticipated that this progression, allowing more and more people the opportunity to have direct payments, will continue into 2015 and beyond.

In conclusion, I trust that I have demonstrated how the draft order removing the pilot scheme limitation will enable direct payments for healthcare to be made to patients using the NHS in England, and how secondary regulations will clearly set out the details of how they will be implemented. I commend the draft order to the House.

17:00

[Baroness Wheeler]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his comprehensive explanation of the background and purpose of the order. We recognise that it is a technical amendment, but this is nevertheless a good opportunity to be updated by the Minister on the consultation on the extension of direct payments for healthcare and how the learning points from the pilots are to be translated into the revised regulations. Labour is fully supportive of extending personal health budgets, having pioneered them in social care through our personalisation and transformation of social care agenda, and set the ball rolling into 2009 on the PHB direct payments pilot.

It was also right to focus on exploring the use of PHBs and direct payments where people had the highest needs, such as those with long-term health and mental health conditions and who access the NHS most frequently. The pilot group covered CIPD, diabetes and long-term conditions, mental health and stroke and patients eligible for NHS continuing care. Labour was particularly concerned that PHBs do not stop at physical health but also include people with learning disabilities.

The national rollout target for PHBs to be extended to 56,000 people by April 2014 is challenging but is necessary to boost the take-up of PHBs across the country, as is the NHS mandate provision for every patient who will benefit to have the option of a PHB by 2015. Is the Minister confident that in the current circumstances, the resources will be available to support achieving these targets?

The pilot evaluation concluded that the majority of budget holders and their carers reported positive impacts of PHBs on patients—on health and well-being, care and other support arrangements for family members. As we know, PHBs have the potential to improve quality of life and satisfaction for both patients and carers, including psychological well-being. Helping patients design packages of care and support from clinicians, primary and secondary care and community health services also helps to provide joined-up integrated care, as the Minister pointed out, and in many instances has led to a reduction in the number of hospital visits. This is exactly where we need to be in terms of future service provision.

As a member—like many Members on all sides of both Houses—of the Westminster Health Forum, I recently chaired a specialist conference on PHBs which was attended by staff, providers and practitioners from across health and social care. The forum conferences are a valuable exchange between experts and staff on the ground including, in this case, those who are part of the multidisciplinary teams supporting and delivering PHBs. There was strong support for PHBs but it is clear, as the Minister said, that we are still very much in a learning process about their development. As usual, as you would expect, there were many questions and answers about some of the implementation, monitoring, accountability and evaluation issues.

I should like to finish by asking the Minister three questions on the issues that arose. First, there were widespread concerns at the conference that the evidence on the impact and effect of PHBs needed to be sharpened up in the future evaluation process. The pilot evaluation showed that there did not appear to be an impact on health status per se. Can the Minister explain whether there are plans in the rollout to assess possible measurements of health improvements, although of course we recognise that these can be hard to achieve in long-term health conditions?

Secondly, a number of GPs at the conference spoke about the challenge of getting wider GP buy-in to PHBs. Can the Minister update the House on discussions with the Royal College of GPs and the BMA on addressing this important issue? The college’s guidance on PHBs was especially commended by conference participants.

Finally, there was widespread concern about how PHBs will be taken forward by commissioners, health professionals and service users. Can the Minister update the House on advice planned or issued by the Department of Health in this respect?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, this is most definitely one area of policy where all sides of the House are at one and I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her comments. She is right that the pioneering work on social care budgets was carried out during the previous Administration and gave us—and her own Government in 2009—sufficient confidence to institute these pilots for healthcare. I am pleased that she is as gratified as I am that the pilots have been a success, although as I emphasised earlier, we still need to feel our way in rolling them out.

The noble Baroness mentioned specifically people with learning disabilities and I agree with what she said. Although the number of people with learning disabilities involved in the pilot was small, it is clear from their stories that people with learning disabilities and their families benefited from the flexibility and control offered by personal health budgets. As the final report on Winterbourne View identified, personal health budgets have the potential to improve commissioning for people with complex needs and challenging behaviour. Many people in out of area placements, or who are at risk of such placements, are funded entirely through NHS continuing healthcare or have some NHS funding. These groups could be offered personal health budgets as the basis for a person-centred approach, meaning that they could have more control over where they live and the care they can access. It is that kind of intangible benefit—the noble Baroness asked about health benefits—that is very difficult to capture metrically, but it is nevertheless an important factor.

The noble Baroness asked me about resources and whether they will be available. As I mentioned earlier, personal health budgets are not about new money, they are about using existing money more effectively. Funding for budgets will need to be found from within normal NHS allocations and how that is done will be a decision for local CCGs. The personal health budget toolkit contains learning from the pilot programme on this and more information will become available during the early rollout phase as Going Further Faster sites consider sustainability issues. NHS England will be publishing guidance to help CCGs consider how to introduce direct payments for healthcare and personal health budgets on a local level in a sustainable way.

In answer to the noble Baroness’s question about health outcomes, it might be helpful to run through some of the findings from the pilots, which I think show that we can hold our heads up and say that they benefit people. First, we are clear that personal health budgets are cost-effective. They improve or maintain outcomes and reduce costs or are cost-neutral. These results are particularly true for people eligible for NHS continuing healthcare and people with mental health problems. When personal health budgets are implemented so that the person has choice over services and how they receive the budget, the cost-effectiveness increases. People can choose to meet their needs in different ways through lower-cost interventions, for example by training their personal assistants to carry out some health tasks, such as changing dressings. This means that people’s needs can still be met but in a different way, and perhaps in a way which is less stressful for them.

Personal health budgets also clearly resulted in an increase in the quality of life. The study found that effects were greater when people had budgets of more than £1,000, and this generally applies to people who have higher levels of health need, as I mentioned earlier. People benefited more from personal health budgets when there were fewer restrictions in place around what they could spend the money on and how they received the budget—that is, having a choice of a direct payment, a third-party budget or a notional budget. I hope that that is helpful to the noble Baroness in answer to her question.

In answer to the noble Baroness’s further question, I can tell her that the review will include a review of whether the budget is meeting the individual’s needs. That is clearly an important factor. We need to make sure not only that the money is adequate but that the plan itself and the money that goes with it are in step with each other. As regards the Royal College of General Practitioners and wider GP buy-in to personal health budgets, we have been very careful to engage with the royal college at all stages. We met them in conference last week to discuss their role going forward. It is important, as the noble Baroness stressed, that we engage GPs in this process, and I hope that we can continue that active co-operation with them.

Motion agreed.

Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Code of Practice) Order 2013

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Motion to Approve

17:09

Moved By

[Baroness Randerson]

That the order laid before the House on 14 May be approved.

Relevant document: 1st Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)]

My Lords, this order brings into force the code of practice for the exercise of powers in the Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007. The 2007 Act provides a range of powers to the Police Service of Northern Ireland, including stop and question, stop and search for munitions and wireless apparatus, and entry of premises. It also gives the police the power to seize items found during searches of people, premises and vehicles. While a number of the powers in the 2007 Act are primarily for use by the PSNI, the Armed Forces also have powers under the Act which they can use in support of the police.

Amendments to the 2007 Act made by the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 introduced an authorisation procedure for the exercise by the police of stop-and-search powers in relation to munitions and wireless transmitters. The purpose of this code is to set out how the powers at Sections 21, 23 and 24 and of Schedules 3 and 26 to the 2007 Act should be exercised by the Police Service of Northern Ireland. It also sets out the fundamental principles which underpin the use of the powers. The purpose of Annexe C of the code is to set out the general principles for the use of the powers at Sections 21 to 28 and Section 30 of the 2007 Act by the Armed Forces in the exceptional circumstances in which they may be exercised.

The code of practice has been developed to provide guidance on the use of these powers, particularly to ensure that they are used with regard to proportionality and necessity principles. Effective controls on police powers are essential if we are properly to protect civil liberties. Noble Lords will wish to note that there was no requirement to develop a code under the 2007 Act. The Act simply allowed the Secretary of State to make one and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State decided to do so following the changes to the powers made by the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 to ensure that they were used proportionately, recognising that they are extremely valuable to the PSNI but that we must ensure that they are used properly. We believe that the amended powers and accompanying code of practice strike the right balance between enabling the police to protect the public while ensuring that there are robust safeguards to ensure that the powers are not abused or used excessively.

I recognise that some of these powers, such as the power to stop and search without reasonable suspicion, can be controversial. It is essential that the powers under the 2007 Act must be used only when it is proportionate and necessary to do so and this code of practice will assist police officers in ensuring that these powers are used appropriately.

This code applies to police powers in the 2007 Act, which are specific to Northern Ireland. It does not cover any other police powers in UK-wide legislation or other legislation applicable to Northern Ireland only. It does not affect the operation of other codes of practice, including the Police and Criminal Evidence (Northern Ireland) Order 1989 codes and the Code of Practice (Northern Ireland) for the authorisation and exercise of stop-and-search powers relating to Sections 43, 43A and 47A of, and Schedule 6B to, the Terrorism Act 2000.

In December 2012 my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland launched a 12-week public consultation seeking views on the code of practice. The consultation closed on 6 March and a total of four formal responses were received. All four broadly welcomed the introduction of the code of practice as drafted. The comments were carefully considered and amendments to the code were made. The draft code was close to being finalised when the Court of Appeal issued its judgment in a judicial review—the case of Canning, Fox and McNulty—that challenged the Police Service of Northern Ireland’s use of stop-and-question and stop-and-search powers in the 2007 Act.

17:15

The Court of Appeal found that, without a code of practice in place for the use of these powers in the 2007 Act, the powers were too broad and lacked adequate safeguards. Noble Lords will wish to note that the judgment related to the powers in the 2007 Act prior to the amendments made by the 2012 Act, which brought in the safeguard of an authorisation process for the stop-and-search power. However, following the judgment and subsequent legal advice, the PSNI suspended its use of stop-and-question and stop-and-search powers until a code of practice was in place. Due to the risk to public safety if these powers were not available to the PSNI, it was considered necessary to bring in the code of practice under an urgent procedure, as provided for by the 2007 Act. With the approval of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the code of practice was brought into force on 15 May and the PSNI was able to resume use of these powers, which are an essential tool in ensuring public safety. This urgent procedure allows the code to remain in force for 40 days. This period ends on 3 July. In order for the code to become permanent, it must be debated and approved by both Houses.

The Independent Reviewer of the Justice and Security Act, Mr Robert Whalley CB, reviews the operation of Sections 21 to 32 of the 2007 Act and considers the views of those who use or are affected by these sections. In his most recent annual review the independent reviewer found:

“The operational indicators clearly point towards the continuation of the JSA powers for a further year … my judgment is that the Justice and Security Act powers should continue unchanged for another year”.

The context for these powers is crucial to the debate. Your Lordships will all be aware that the threat level in Northern Ireland remains severe. It is vital that the Police Service of Northern Ireland continues to have available the powers in the 2007 Act. The powers in the Act are not terrorism powers per se; they are powers for dealing with public order situations, including, but not restricted to, terrorism. The powers are an important tool for maintaining public order and were exercised by the PSNI during the recent flags dispute. However, given the current situation in Northern Ireland, these powers are often used to protect the public from terrorist attacks. The PSNI has demonstrated that these powers are necessary and effective in dealing with Northern Ireland-related terrorism. They have prevented attacks, saved lives and led to arrests and convictions. I commend the order to the House.

[Lord Bew]

I thank the noble Baroness for introducing this statutory instrument and broadly offer my support. Since the Court of Appeal’s ruling in May of this year, it is clear that this matter has acquired a degree of urgency and I understand why the Government want to move so quickly. Broadly speaking, I accept her words when she says that the right balance has been achieved between civil liberties and the need to preserve public security.

However, I have one slight reservation. Paragraph 8.4 of the Code of Practice for the Exercise of Powers in the Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 states:

“The use of these powers can protect people’s rights under the European Convention on Human Rights, such as Article 2 (the right to life) by preventing serious harm posed by use of unlawful munitions and wireless apparatus. However, if these powers are exercised there may be some interference with other rights under the Convention, such as the right to private life, and this should be borne in mind when officers judge it necessary to use these powers”.

This is under the part of the code dealing with search for and seizure of munitions and transmitters. My slight problem with that phrasing is that it seems to say that there are two rights. It does not do so explicitly but it leads into it. One is the right to a private life and the other is the commitment that the police must have, under the European convention, to protect life. Following the Court of Appeal ruling, we are putting this problem back with the officers on the ground, and it is probably reasonable to make it clearer. I think that Parliament properly believes that the right to life, in certain circumstances, trumps the right to a private life for a person who might be under investigation. There is just an element of equivocation in the drafting there, which suggests an apparent equality of rights. I accept that it does not actually equate those rights but it certainly does not prioritise one right over another.

Noble Lords will remember that we have expected officers in the last few days, in the lead-up to the G8 summit, to protect world leaders who are in Northern Ireland. They might have been in a situation of trying to intercept ammunition that was being moved around Northern Ireland. I cannot imagine that it would be enormously helpful for them to have to have in mind that they must, on the one had, weigh up their views on the right to life—we all have the right to life but in this case it is the lives of some very important people—and at the same time have to bear that in mind that they might be interfering with the private life of the person driving the car. There is a real problem of balance here and I just think that the drafting is slightly too glib. I am not in any way going to push this point but think it is worth registering. Broadly speaking, I accept the reason for the statutory instrument and accept entirely the defence that has been offered this afternoon by the Minister.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for the clear exposition of the powers outlined in the code of practice. There is a very wide range of powers affecting the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the Armed Forces and it is right and proper that there should be a well thought out code of practice governing the exercise and use of those powers. We all know the situation in Northern Ireland, where the authorities, the police and the Armed Forces have to be seen to be absolutely foursquare in their application of those powers. This code of practice builds in safeguards for the use of the powers for all in the community.

Security in Northern Ireland is of the utmost importance to all noble Lords in this House and we are united in our commitment to ensuring that people in Northern Ireland are safe and secure. The men and women officers of the Police Service of Northern Ireland do their jobs with bravery and dedication. The measures in the Act play a hugely important role in combating terrorism and protecting communities in Northern Ireland and it is very important that they are overseen by rigorous, independent scrutiny. That is encompassed in the code of practice, which is vital to maintaining public confidence in Northern Ireland in the exercise of these powers. We on this side of the House are happy to lend our support, in the best traditions of bipartisanship, and understand the reasons for the urgent nature of the measure. I would like to place on record that Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition give their full support to this order.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank both noble Lords who have participated in this brief debate for their support and I will do my best to respond to the points raised. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bew, for his broad support. He referred to paragraph 8.4 of the code and read an extract from it. I hope noble Lords will bear with me if I read some further extracts in response to illustrate my point.

The noble Lord referred to the balancing of the two rights. If you read the code as a whole you will see that it acknowledges the supreme importance of the right for one’s life to be protected and the obligation to protect life. There was a long consultation on this code and changes were made to it as a result, so it has been fairly thoroughly looked at. If you look further in the code, paragraph 8.6 says:

“Officers should exercise consideration when entering and searching premises. If entry is forced, officers should endeavour to cause as little damage as possible … officers must ensure the building is left secure”.

Paragraph 8.8 makes the point that:

“Where practicable, officers should seek the co-operation of any person in the dwelling”.

Paragraph 8.9 says:

“Officers should exercise their powers courteously and with respect for persons and property”.

So it goes on.

When the code deals with the need to enter premises—which may be a building but could be a field or vehicle—it acknowledges that you have to recognise that people, as well as having the right to have their life protected, also have a right to a private life. It goes on to explain that one right has to be exercised with a view to the other. I believe the code of practice enshrines the right balance.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for his support. He referred to the importance of the code building on safeguards. He paid a very important tribute to the PSNI. The police service in Northern Ireland is a devolved issue, but the code was developed in very close collaboration with it, and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland keeps very close links with the PSNI. Its involvement in the drafting of this code is essential to its smooth operation in the months and years to come. Finally, the noble Lord referred to the importance of rigorous scrutiny and put his finger on the key point. A process of rigorous scrutiny provides the transparency that ensures the integrity of the process. I hope the noble Lords will feel able to support the order.

Motion agreed.

Payday Loans

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Question for Short Debate

17:29

Asked by

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the alternatives to the payday lending industry available to consumers.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, I am delighted to have secured this debate today. I am looking forward to all the contributions from noble Lords, in particular from the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury. I am delighted that he has found time in his very busy schedule to take part in this afternoon’s debate.

We are in a very desperate and difficult situation. The payday lending industry is making a small group of people very rich by lending to people who struggle to get access to reasonably priced financial products to meet their needs at the most exorbitant and outrageous rates of interest. As the most reverend Primate told the House when he spoke during the passage of the Financial Services Act, this is nothing more than usury. A loan becomes usurious because of the excessive or abusive interest rates applied, and the payday lending industry does just that.

I am extremely disappointed that the Government have done next to nothing on this issue following the cross-party agreement on an amendment to cap interest rates which was passed in this House last year. Will the noble Viscount tell the House why the Government have done so little on this issue? Yes, we are living in tough times, but I get the feeling that for some people times are tougher than for others. I do not feel that we are all in this together. Rip-off Britain is alive and well. The payday lending industry is one of the worst examples of exploitation of the poor and the vulnerable, and we all need to do something about it. Government, Parliament, banks and other financial service providers, the Office of Fair Trading, other regulators, the Church and civil society all need to say, “Enough is enough. We are not going to let you treat people like this any more”.

The Government should be doing a number of things and should use their influence to get others to take action as well. We find ourselves in a situation where the alternatives to the payday lending industry are few, and the alternatives that exist need active help and support to grow in strength to be able to deliver and provide real and effective choice for consumers.

The Government have had plenty of advice, seen plenty of studies, and lots of work has been done to identify the problem for them, but so far their response has been poor. Some of the worst practices of this industry include poor lending checks—when there is no proper assessment as to whether the applicant for a loan has enough disposable income to repay the loan in full. Payday lenders often roll over loans without checking whether they will be affordable, even though rollovers should be seen as a clear indication that the borrower may be experiencing financial difficulties. The Office of Fair Trading noted that payday lenders have a strong incentive to roll over loans, making as much as half of their revenues this way.

Multiple loans are also a key indicator of acute repayment problems and should ring alarm bells—but they do not. The misuse of continuous payment authorities has seen situations where money is taken from people’s accounts, leaving them with no money to cover food, housing and other essential bills. Default interest and charges make the cost of rollovers very expensive for borrowers, who cannot repay their loan on time. Again, this is another huge source of revenue for payday lenders.

The aggressive targeting of students and young people is wrong. I was horrified to learn of young people using their smartphones to get a payday loan to buy another round of drinks on a Saturday night. I could go on with this list of bad practices and horror stories but I am sure that other noble Lords will have further examples that they will want to share with us. I will speak about some of the things that could be done to regulate the industry more effectively and get it to act responsibly.

I invite the Prime Minister to call a summit at No. 10 to get the leaders of the payday lending industry, the banks and other financial services providers, including credit unions, the churches, the regulators and the representatives of civil society to sit down together to come up with an agreement on what is acceptable and what is not, what can and what cannot be done and, if need be, to enshrine that in law.

When I joined this noble House just over three years ago almost every Minister who spoke from the Dispatch Box told us that the answer to most of our problems was the big society. Today we never hear the term mentioned, as if it had been banished from the book. If the concept ever meant anything, surely it means people coming together, supporting their community and the most vulnerable, working together, opposing injustice and unfairness, and not letting people be ripped off. What happened to the big society? I hope the noble Viscount will be able to tell the House how this concept is helping people in financial hardship.

What can we do? At a minimum, we could create a situation where no one is struggling to pay off multiple payday loans. No one should owe more than £500 in payday loans. Lenders recovering payday loans should never leave borrowers without the means to meet basic expenditure such as rent, food and council tax. The use of continuous payment authorities should be stopped, and replaced with payment authorities that are controlled by the customer only. If that is not possible because the type of basic bank account the customer has will not allow that, the bank should change the rules and permit it. If a customer notifies the payday lender that they are in financial difficulties, then default charges and interest payments should be stopped for at least 30 days while they get help to deal with their debts. The default charges and other punitive charges should never exceed 30% of the original loan.

Every payday lender on the high street should be required to provide details of where people should go for debt advice, and online lenders should also provide similar information. I would like to see all payday lenders carry a health warning on their advertisements in whatever medium. These warnings should be about 20% of the size of the advert. Similar rules used to apply for cigarette companies, before they were banned from advertising. Payday lenders should tell customers where to go for debt advice, and notify them that cheaper alternatives are available.

For all those measures, other measures are being introduced by payday lenders. We need a plan, and we need to support the alternatives to the payday lending industry. Credit unions have a role to play, and noble Lords will be aware of my active support for the credit union movement over many years. However, only the biggest credit unions will be in a position to provide immediate help. The London Mutual Credit Union, one of the biggest in the country and the biggest in London, has taken up that challenge. The legislative reform order the Government passed on credit unions was very welcome, as is the Treasury’s recent announcement of a rise in the interest rate cap.

The credit union expansion project is good news, and on many occasions I have praised the Government for their work here, but a £35 million fund is not going to provide the solution to our problems. It is a drop in the ocean, and much more needs to be done. In this House I have previously called on the banks to actively support the credit union movement. They must do so not only with a bit of sponsorship or small sums of money, although that would be welcome, but by making a commitment to build these organisations and make them financially robust. Banks should use the skills and expertise of their own staff, working on long term secondments to help the credit union movement grow and develop. The aim is to build what we see on both sides of the border in Ireland and in the United States of America: financially robust institutions, owned by their members, which deliver locally tailored financial products at a reasonable price.

We also need the support of the wider business community, and in fact every employer in the public and private sector. Simply advertising the availability of their local credit union to staff and allowing them to save with it through check-off would be a big step in the right direction. Some of our biggest companies and the Government should take a lead in this with an advertising campaign in support of the credit union movement.

It would also be very helpful if local government as a whole took a proactive role in supporting local credit unions. There are some fantastic examples in places such as Southwark, Islington and Sandwell, to name just three. We need the whole of local government to play its role. If every local authority pledged to deliver a place on the high street for their local credit union, what a welcome sight that would be.

I was surprised to learn how basic some basic bank accounts are. In an age where you can get a payday loan on your smartphone in minutes, some of these accounts do not allow people to get cash back at a supermarket when going shopping, forcing them to use cash machines. If your local bank branch has closed and taken its cash machines away, you are left with the corner shop where you have to pay to use the cash machine. These machines charge £2 or £3 to get out a £10 note. Why can the banking industry not look at some sort of basic loan of up to £500? That could make a huge difference here. Why can the Government not work with banks to provide them with protection and support if they work to help people get away from the payday lending industry?

The point I want to make in this debate is that if whole communities are abandoned then they will become the victims of the payday lending industry. To stop that, there must be a full range of financial products available. We must ensure that you are not discriminated against because of where you live or because you are poor. There need to be viable alternatives to payday lenders. Credit unions are part of the solution, but not all of it. Other financial providers need to step up, and civil society as much as government needs to say that enough is enough.

I thank all noble Lords who are about to speak in this debate. I look forward to their contributions and to the reply from the Minister.

17:39

[Baroness Wilcox]

My Lords, 23 years ago, in 1990, I chaired the National Consumer Council. We brought out a book called, Credit and Debt. With the permission of the House, I will read one or two lines from its foreword, which states:

“People have always needed or wanted things that they cannot immediately afford. And there have always been people on hand with the money to lend to them—at a cost”.

The book added that in the previous few years:

“Consumers enormously increased their use of credit. New types of lending grew quickly, older ones declined ... Most people have been able to make good use of these new opportunities, but there has, too, been a worrying increase, for whatever reason, in the number of credit casualties … The change in economic conditions … has reminded us that credit is a risky business. It is risky for lenders, of course, but it is risky for borrowers, too. Taking on credit means mortgaging your future in a large or small way. And none of us can be certain about the future. Today’s rising casualty rate raises anxieties about the greater potential for damage in an expanded market … Many people are still forced by necessity to borrow—sometimes on contracts they do not understand, and at rates that, realistically, they may not be able to afford … Information and education are important keys. They are at the heart of a truly competitive and healthy credit market”.

I read that and some of the rest of the book just to remind myself that I seem to stand up quite often in this House when the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, stands up, and we are usually talking about credit unions. Some of the ideas that he has mentioned made me think that there is hope and that there may be new ways for us to go in.

However, the credit unions are all about saving, being prudent and putting something aside. The sort of lending that we are talking about here is very often for people who are borrowing in a panic, borrowing instantly, and want to go straight into the high street. We have seen more and more of such lending. Credit unions might not solve this issue, but some of the other suggestions are certainly worth listening to.

We have a Government committed to curbing unsustainable lending, and the report commissioned from Bristol University and the OFT’s final report on payday compliance demonstrated clearly that the high-cost credit market, particularly the payday lending market, is not functioning in the consumer’s interest. The Government have set out how they and regulators together will tackle the concerns in the payday lending market. The OFT now, and the FCA from April 2014, will clamp down on irresponsible practices, and in some cases blatant non-compliance, by lenders. The OFT is consulting on a provisional decision to refer the payday lending market to the Competition Commission. The Government will begin immediate work with industry and regulators to clamp down on the advertising of payday loans, and they are strongly pressing for the industry to improve compliance with payday lending codes. The FSA has committed to considering whether there are gaps in the regulation of payday lending that need to be addressed by the FCA from April 2014.

All this is good news for the consumer and consumer groups such as the National Consumer Federation, Consumer Focus, Citizens Advice and Which?. All are calling for better affordability checks, more transparent information, preventing lenders from levying excessive charges on borrowers in financial difficulty, and other measures. I and many noble Lords have received e-mails and letters from new lenders with many suggestions for alternative ways of lending.

Credit is therefore a popular consumer product. Most people in Great Britain handle it well, and I was reassured to read the foreword written by the Minister for Consumer Affairs, Jo Swinson, in the Government’s response to the Bristol University report, who stated:

“The Government does not believe that a cap on the total cost of credit would be the best solution now to the problems that have been identified by the Bristol report and the OFT payday compliance review”.

However, she added that a “cap might be appropriate” at some time. Here is the point of my concern and my reason for speaking today.

I hope that we can avoid capping at all costs. Germany and France cap at about 25% and they have a very narrow lending market. My worry, and that of consumer groups, the previous Government and this Government, is that capping will restrict access to the credit market, making it unavailable to the poorest and most vulnerable in our country: the disadvantaged consumers. They would undoubtedly lose access to the legal market and be forced into the hands of loan sharks and illegal lenders whose terms and methods cannot be easily controlled or monitored. All Governments and consumer groups are concerned that when it went wrong, the borrowers would be afraid to seek help from the very organisations that are set up to assist people taking panic-borrowing and to sort out their debts. They would find it hard to find these people until it was too late.

I was brought into this House to speak for the consumer, particularly for the disadvantaged consumer, and I hope I am doing that today. After all, a consumer is you and me; a consumer is somebody who buys or uses goods or services, whether publicly or privately provided; a consumer is empowered by having choice, by having access to that choice, by having the right information on which to make that choice and by having safety, equity and redress. Taking away access to a market—in this case, capping the lending market—is giving a disadvantaged consumer no choice other than the black market. As I have already said, capping would mean that the most vulnerable could not make a choice, thus stopping them getting equity, redress and help.

Achieving access to credit for all in a free, well regulated and open market should continue to be our goal. Government will regulate the market better. Schools, churches, families and lenders should, and if encouraged will, all play their part. However, 23 years on, I still believe that education and information are at the heart of a truly competitive and healthy credit market.

17:47

[Lord Hollick]

I thank my noble friend Lord Kennedy of Southwark for giving the House the opportunity to discuss and debate this important topic. High-cost lending is a booming business. The demand for short-term payday loans and longer-term high-interest loans is being driven by the crushing impact that the very tough economic climate is having on personal and family budgets. The fall in real incomes and the above-inflation increases in the price of essentials such as utilities and food are leaving many people short of the money they need to make ends meet, so they turn to the payday lenders.

The Bureau of Investigative Journalism recently published a report on high-cost lenders, which showed that they had enjoyed a 30% growth in turnover over the last 12 months and were achieving 30% profit margins on that turnover. Harsh economic circumstances might be the driver of demand, but the secret of the high profit is the mix of simple and instant loan availability, lax regulation, the absence of competition and eye-watering interest rates. Desperate borrowers—and it is estimated that there could be up to 5 million such customers—many with poor or no credit histories, can get instant cash, often without credit checks, documentary evidence or, as the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said, checks on affordability.

The lenders’ business model is to recruit borrowers and then to increase the number of loans, thereby maximising the yield per customer. So begins the awful debt spiral that traps so many payday borrowers. For the lenders, the high bad-debt experience, estimated at up to 25%, is more than compensated for by the stratospheric interest charges.

Unsurprisingly, this booming sector has caught the eye of international investors, most notably from the United States. The expansion of the payday loans industry in the US has been curtailed by the growing clampdown on high interest rates by state regulators, with some states going so far as to ban payday loans completely. Others, such as Pennsylvania, have capped interest rates on short-term loans at 30%. Similar initiatives are under way in other states.

The vanishingly light regulatory environment here in the UK is a big incentive to US investors, many of whom also take advantage of aggressive transfer pricing to ensure that, like Google and Amazon, the bulk of their profit is made in a tax haven. This combination allows investors to make spectacular tax-free or very low-tax returns at the expense not only of our most hard-pressed citizens but of our taxpayers generally. Could the Minister confirm that that is indeed the outcome of the coalition’s policies and its failure to put in place serious regulation to curb high interest loans, a measure that is commonplace in most developed countries?

Such a lucrative market would typically see high levels of competition, which would benefit borrowers with lower interest rates, but that is not the case, one reason being the complete absence of the major UK banks from this market place. That is all the more surprising, since the one thing that every high-cost borrower must have is a bank account to receive the money borrowed and to pay the interest and repay the principal by direct debit or similar arrangement. The millions of payday borrowers are all existing customers of our major banks, with known financial profiles and transaction histories. Yet the banks have failed to provide small loans to their existing creditworthy customers on terms that would almost certainly be substantially less expensive to the borrower than those currently available while being very profitable to the bank itself. To compound this failure and add insult to injury, it is reported and widely understood that the banks actually downgrade the credit rating of customers who take out payday loans.

The failure of our major banks to provide products to their existing customers is part of their wider failure to meet the demands of their customers generally. Despite the exhortations of the Government and the provision of low-cost funding for lending by the Bank of England, loans to SMEs have shrunk in each of the last three years, and loans to individuals are difficult to obtain and often prohibitively complex. Although the banks do not lend to their existing hard-pressed customers, they are happy to participate in this lucrative market by providing funds directly to the high-cost lenders. The Royal Bank of Scotland and Barclays have lent substantial sums to a range of payday lenders that are often secured on the very loans made by these lenders to the customers of the very bank providing the funds. This perverse behaviour speaks volumes about the banks’ lack of concern for the needs of their existing customers, their general lack of business acumen by failing to seize a business opportunity right on their doorstep, and their very confused attitude to corporate social responsibility.

The Chancellor has been keen to intervene in the affairs of the Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds to the point of becoming meddlesome. Could the Minister tell us if the Chancellor, or any other Minister, has asked either of these banks—RBS and Lloyds—to explain their failure to offer their individual customers loans at reasonable rates and thus provide competition to the rapacious payday lenders? Could he please also explain why it is acceptable for banks owned by the public to fail to lend to their creditworthy customers but acceptable for them to make loans to high-cost lenders?

I want to end on a happier note. Not all high-cost lending is actually high cost. Indeed, if you are the right borrower, the terms can be very attractive. An example of this is the Arbuthnot Banking Group, which owns high-cost lender Everyday Loans, which typically charges between 50% and 200% interest. However, Arbuthnot has made a loan facility of £5 million to the Conservative Party at the very attractive rate of 3.5%. I have no doubt that all the appropriate steps were taken by Arbuthnot to satisfy itself as to the creditworthiness of the Conservative Party. Then again, it probably helps that Arbuthnot is run by Mr Angest, a former Conservative Party treasurer and major donor to the party; so it is who you know that matters.

17:55

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, on obtaining this debate, particularly because it focuses on alternatives to payday lenders. I will not go through the routine of describing the evils of many of the high-interest lenders; that has been well done by others in this debate. However, I will take issue with the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, on the point that these are impulse loans for something frivolous—the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, gave the example of a student buying beer. I think that is the exception.

We have here a group of people on modest incomes. They have some income—otherwise they are of no interest to the payday lender—but find themselves under stress and have nowhere to turn other than to the payday lender or to the illegal market. That, to me, is not choice. The issue that I want to raise and focus on is the absence of choice in this market.

I say in passing that I hope very much that the OFT and the new regulator, the FCA, will use the considerable powers that have now been given to them—many of those amendments were moved in this House—to bring the payday loan industry to heel. Indeed, I join those who call for a cap on payday lending. It may mean that we first have to make sure that there are alternatives in the market, but that is a challenge to which I think we ought to rise.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, talked about credit unions. Obviously, they play a very important part in trying to provide an alternative, as do the co-operative banks and the mutuals. For all of them it is quite difficult, because they cannot put the kind of spend into sexy advertising and affectionate granny puppets that payday lenders can. However, it seems to me that, with the proper support, they can make a very big difference in this market.

I will talk about another area where I think we have been missing a trick, and I take my example from the United States. It is the concept of community development finance institutions. There are relatively few of these in the UK, but in the US they are common. Indeed, many of the states that are now capping payday lenders are able to do so because the CDFIs offer the alternative that some in this Chamber have talked about. CDFIs have a mission to provide financial products and services to people and communities underserved by traditional financial markets. They are sometimes banks, sometimes credit unions, sometimes loan funds and sometimes venture capital funds. Indeed, they account for a lot of the early start-up capital for new businesses in the US.

However, it is their commitment to distressed communities that sets them apart. For example, while a traditional credit union serves its members, a community development credit union is specifically targeted at a disadvantaged community. CDFIs are local institutions serving their local community, and members of the community usually serve on the boards. They are typically funded by outside investors. These could be social investors, who are seeking either no return or little return in financial terms but are looking for social and environment return. In the United States, they are frequently able to access capital from the Government. However, they are required, as they function, to be self-sufficient and to operate on commercial principles.

Your Lordships will be aware that we will soon know more about where the big high-street banks in the UK are actually lending their money and what types of loans they are making, be they small business loans, mortgages or unsecured loans. We will know it by bank and by postcode once a voluntary agreement, which is now in negotiation, is completed between the Treasury and the banks. We hope that the first data disclosures will be available before the year end. As noble Lords will remember, the Government promised to get this disclosure after the issue was forcefully raised in this House through proposed amendments to the Financial Services Bill. The Government promised this House that, if such a disclosure agreement could not be reached voluntarily, it would be mandated through an amendment to the banking reform Bill. However, it now looks as though that will not be necessary and that a solid and sound voluntary agreement will be in place very soon.

Those data should tell us whether the high-street banks are neglecting communities and, if so, which communities they are and where they are. If we identify vacuums, it strikes me that they will be the perfect space into which to introduce CDFIs. In the US, major banks that fail to lend in areas where they take deposits can, as it were, amend the situation by investing in a CDFI to do the job which they, the high-street banks, are reluctant or not equipped to do. That seems to be very right, as at least a part of banking is surely a utility service, and that can be recognised in the terms of the banking licence.

I anticipate that local authorities, charities and social enterprises could move into this CDFI space, supported by investment and technical know-how from the major banks. As I said before, a growing breed of investors—we see them becoming increasingly active in the City of London—are seeking not just economic returns but social and environmental returns for their money. This is a way for them to begin to participate in this kind of benefit to disadvantaged communities. I am very pleased that some of this is recognised in the report from the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards.

The CDFI world in the United States has assets under management exceeding $30 billion. It is a massive sector, stretched across the country. In the UK, we have just a scattering of institutions. However, they lent some £200 million in 2012, so they certainly have a foot on the ground, and they had some 33,000 customers. Many of those customers were social ventures but they were also micro-businesses and individuals. So far, they have been helped to the tune of some £60 million by the regional growth fund. The high-street banks have agreed in principle to refer to the CDFIs small businesses whose loan applications they have rejected, although I do not think that the referral system is working terribly well at the moment. However, there is the beginning of a relationship and a network between the existing banks, the major banks and the existing CDFIs, and we can start to build on that. It is crucial that we find ways to bring disadvantaged communities into the economic mainstream, as that will enable people to empower themselves in their lives and contribute to the economy.

The period of banking reform that we are going through at the moment comes together with new regulators, who have a new attitude. Both the FCA and the PRA have taken up the cause of diversity and competition in a way unheard of in the past. All these things have created a window of opportunity. However, if we do not seize that window and try to make sure that over the coming years we create the necessary network to provide banking services and credit to all the communities in our country, we will lose it, because there are plenty of naysayers who are happy to write off both disadvantaged individuals and disadvantaged communities.

I am therefore arguing for a concentrated effort to accelerate the growth of CDFIs, and credit unions are a part of that. I echo the call of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards to the Government to look at tax incentives and other mechanisms to boost investment in these bodies. If we find from data disclosure that the high-street banks are essentially neglecting certain communities, it seems to me that the moral case is made for those banks to step in voluntarily, support CDFIs and make sure that no one falls through the cracks. If they will not do it voluntarily, let us do it by making sure that it is done under the terms of their banking licence.

18:04

[The Archbishop of Canterbury]

My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for instigating this debate on alternatives to payday lending. It is something that he has studied for many years, and he is an acknowledged expert in the field.

The payday lending industry has grown at a vast speed, as we all know, and alternative sources of credit are few and far between, particularly for those who have had their applications for credit turned down by a high-street bank. It is very easy to see, as we have heard already—the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, spoke to this very clearly and powerfully, as ever—that it is going to take a long time to provide alternatives. However, the fact that we cannot do something now does not mean that we should not start doing it now or that it should never be done. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, spoke very powerfully on that.

Payday lenders lead to people being assured, through impressively slick marketing campaigns and targeted advertisements, that the process of taking out a loan is quick, simple and safe. However, once the loan has been taken out, it is difficult to get out of the cycle. With the rates offered, simply paying off the interest becomes a struggle.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, spoke already of the problem of rollovers. I do not want to repeat that. I will, however, pick up the comment about interest rate caps. I very rarely dare to disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, but on this occasion I will take my life in my hands. A cap does not mean 25% or 30%. It is not any figure. The Financial Services Act provides for a study of the consequences of a cap to be looked at and then for the cap to be brought in at an appropriate level. Caps are needed at a sensible level that does not choke off supply and send people into the hands of loan sharks. I have seen the effect of that when working in Toxteth. Caps are there to prevent usurious lending. The noble Baroness said that caps should not be introduced at any price. The trouble is that the interest rates are at any price, typically more than 2,500% on an annual basis. We need to look at reasonable limits that cut out legal usury from our high streets.

This is not a problem faced only by the very poor. Some 5 million people in this country use payday loans and, apparently, one in four Londoners. The situation is becoming too big to ignore. I hope that the Minister will let us know whether the Government will consider seriously the exercise of its powers in this area under the Financial Services Act.

However, simply dealing with that does not deal with the long-term question. It is quite clear when I look at what is happening on the high street and in our local communities, particularly in the most deprived areas, that—as the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, explained—alternatives are very few and far between. My own group, the church, can play a part in the development of credit unions up and down the country. There is a role to be played by local institutions. We have, so to speak, branches in every community—16,000 branches in 9,000 communities, even more than the banks. If we wish to see the development of alternatives to payday lenders in all communities, we must use all the institutions in all communities—churches, post offices, and even, if I dare say so in the presence of the Government, the Co-op. The Post Office is an institution that is playing an increasingly important role. That is clearly something warmly to be encouraged.

The church is in a unique position up and down the country. For the credit union movement to be successful and sustainable, and other forms of local finance to develop, we need a bottom-up movement of local organisations working to change the sources of supply. It will take many years—10 to 15 years—but it must start now. The new institutions must develop flexibility in order to demonstrate their ability to meet the new needs. As the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, pointed out very clearly, they are not the needs that were present when credit unions first began. People want quick access to money. They want to be able to get it now.

We can use local institutions that have places of work and skills that can be brought in through volunteers. Church members—not just those in the Church of England—give more than 23 million hours of volunteer time every month outside the regular work of the church. Volunteering comes naturally to us. Unlike some other things, it is something that we are very good at. Many who sit on the pews each Sunday have expert knowledge in finance, human resources, communications, marketing, debt counselling and all sorts of areas. We need a regulatory environment that makes it possible to have flexibility of provision.

If we are to have good regulation—huge improvement was made through the Financial Services Act, and we were grateful to the Government for the many amendments they introduced—equip alternative sources of finance with outlets that can be used in areas that need them and give them the capacity to exercise their location effectively, we also need to communicate the sources of alternative finance widely in the United Kingdom. Two-thirds of the population of Ireland are members of a credit union, but take-up and use of credit unions in the UK is still woefully low.

A mixed economy of geographically based credit unions and professional ones, and other forms of finance such as CDFIs, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said, will give the best chance of developing good, alternative sources of finance that will take away the need for caps because essentially they will compete the high-rate lenders out of existence. There is a very long way to go.

Recently in my diocese, I came across a painter-decorator who was made unemployed two years ago. For two years he sought a loan to start his own business. He was looking for £200. At the end of two years, through a third-sector organisation in the area, he was able to borrow £200. When I last heard, his book of orders was full for nine months and he paid off the loan in about three weeks. A finance system that in an area of poverty cannot provide £200 is dysfunctional and we need to pay attention to that. We need good, viable alternatives.

I warmly welcome the call by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for a summit to deal with some of these areas. Will the Minister review the recommendations on basic bank accounts, which are also hidden in the depths of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards—they are well hidden—in order to influence the banks, which indirectly he largely owns, to make better provision in the mean time before alternative forms of finance develop?

I am very grateful that we have had the opportunity to think creatively about alternatives. My hope is that a thriving alternative credit movement will one day mean that payday lenders simply are not necessary.

18:13

[Lord Glasman]

My Lords, I echo the sentiments of gratitude to my noble friend Lord Kennedy for initiating this debate and for his work over many years. He knows the realities and speaks plainly about them. It is also a tremendous honour to follow the most reverend Primate. I believe that the last archbishop to take a very strong stance against usury was Archbishop Laud and I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, that we know what happened to him. I consider it a tremendous act of courage to stand in favour of the cap. It is an interesting story: the church resisted the increasing demands, but in the end, in the time of the Long Parliament, it was decided that politics should have no role in the setting of interest rates. It is wonderful that the voice of the church, Catholic and reformed, is heard once more on this issue.

I declare an interest: I worked for many years for London Citizens and the Industrial Areas Foundation. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, spoke excellently about the community development funds. An aspect that may be of interest to the Government is that the seed money was provided by President Nixon. It is not the case that Conservative Governments are hostile to the conditions of the urban poor. The interesting thing was that the initial seed money was £9 million. The assets of the urban development funds, looked at as a mixture of venture capital, urban development and loans, are now well over £1 billion. I have worked with them and looked closely at that in terms of Baltimore, and the effects that this has had there.

That is very inspiring, but we have nothing like it. We have no such framework; no initiatives have been taken. This speaks to the heart of the issue. I here put my head on the block in relation once more to what the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, said. My noble friend Lord Hollick spoke about Barclays: it made a loan of £120 million to the Money Shop six weeks before Christmas. I believe that the rate was 7%. The rate that was lent at to people was 4,000%, and now Barclays discriminates against its own customers and will not give them loans. This is completely out of order. The conditions of the working poor and the debt in which that they have to live are, as they say on the 73 bus where I come from, bang out of order. People cannot find access to money. They do not earn enough; they cannot find a decent, meaningful and honest way out of the poverty wages that they receive. Yet there are no new institutions in the banking sector that address this issue.

I am involved in a conversation with Salford about establishing a bank of Salford, working on the credit unions. An interesting addition to the suggestions made, which the Government should look into, is that if you put the payroll through the new institutions of local government or city governance, it transforms the financial status of those institutions, and suddenly they are able to lend. That is one important issue. We need to notice that there has been no innovation in institutions relating to the banking system.

We must go back to 2008 and assert sadly that none of us is innocent. Between 1997 and 2007, of the £1.6 trillion invested in the British economy, 81% was in mortgages and financial products. Family and personal debt exploded. People cannot find a way out of that debt. It is not outlandish to say, as we did in 2008, that 5% of the bailout should be used to establish regional banks, as part of this story. Why is quantitative easing going through the same failed banking institutions that are refusing to lend to local businesses and the working poor? It is important to stress that the overwhelming loans owed to these payday lenders are not from those on benefits. They are from working people who do not earn enough and cannot discharge their fundamental responsibilities to their loved ones and their absolute obligations to pay their taxes and rates. Overwhelmingly, the money goes on food.

I conclude by saying another thank you. This is the most fundamental issue that we face. Debt is exploding. We have not moved to value—we still have debt. We need to look at community development funds and the decentralised way in which they work, and the way in which they are controlled by local people. I worked with the Industrial Areas Foundation. To ease the concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, let me say that when the interest rate cap was set in Maryland, because of access to the alternative finance system there is no evidence that it led unavoidably to loan sharks. That is not the case. There were alternative financial institutions, and many were set up by a partnership between churches and local unions.

There are many creative ways in which we can deal not only with the issue of the working poor but by which we can reactivate the civic institutions to a common purpose, which is value. We need to move absolutely from debt to value in the economic system. We must stop subsidising, bankrolling and giving all the perverse welfare incentives that we had to the banking institutions that are not fulfilling their role. We must create new institutions that have local people’s ownership and control, people who serve their own interests. This debate is a wonderful opportunity to investigate the genuine opportunities to bring some credit to the starving people of our country.

18:19

[Lord Mitchell]

My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend Lord Kennedy of Southwark for securing this important debate. Both he and I share a passion for this subject and both of us are determined not to let the issue die. We both see the misery and hopelessness that is caused by payday lending and other forms of loan sharking. We see it on our high streets, on-line and advertised on our London buses.

I would like to recreate the mood that existed in your Lordships’ House last November. I had introduced an amendment to the Financial Services Bill which we had discussed in Committee. On Report, I was fortunate enough to secure as co-sponsors of my amendment the noble Baronesses, Lady Howe of Idlicote and Lady Grey-Thompson. In addition, the then Bishop of Durham, now the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury, also sponsored the amendment. By any measure, we had strong support.

Imagine my surprise the day before the debate, just as I was about to enter the Tube at Westminster station, when I received a call from the Treasury Bill team. As noble Lords will readily appreciate, this does not happen too often, especially to mere mortals. The gentleman in question told me that the Government wanted me to withdraw the amendment the next day. I was more than a little surprised. I told him that we were going to defeat the Government, so why should I withdraw. “Because”, he told me, “we know you’re going to win and because the Government have totally reversed their position and now want to support you”. “But”, he went on, “we want to improve the wording and make it much more effective”. I staggered into the station hardly believing what I had heard.

The next day the Government were true to their word. They announced that at Third Reading they would introduce a tougher, more comprehensive amendment. So it was with great joy and a sense that right had prevailed that I withdrew the amendment. The revised amendment was introduced at Third Reading, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, for the Government, and I added my name to it. It went through on the nod, was confirmed in the other place and went on to the statute book.

To capture the mood at that time I would like to recount the words of the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, who was the Treasury Minister at the Dispatch Box. He said:

“The Government are, like all of us, concerned about the appalling behaviour of some firms in this sector and the harm that vulnerable consumers suffer”.

He continued:

“Our objectives here are the same: they are to ensure that consumers of financial services have access to credit when they need it and at a price they can afford; and to ensure that the regulator is under a clear obligation, and fully empowered, to ensure that consumers are protected”.—[Official Report, 28/11/12; col. 215-16.]

I must emphasise the noble Lord’s words—“at a price they can afford”.

It was a government U-turn, to be sure, and it was of monumental importance; but to their credit, it was one that the Government made with good grace. Very soon, however, the mood music changed, and from statements coming from various government Ministers it became obvious to many of us that the Government’s heart had gone out of the matter. They were retracting their position.

Following the OFT’s report on payday lending companies, I tabled an Oral Question in March asking whether the Government were now reluctant to place caps on interest rates on these loans. The noble Lord, Lord Popat, who is in his place, replied:

“A cap will reduce access to credit and will mean fewer lenders”.—[Official Report, 12/3/13; col. 133.]

The noble Lord carefully avoided the fact that interest rate caps operate successfully in Japan, France, Italy, Germany, Slovakia and in many states in the United States. I do not know how this succession of events appears to noble Lords today but to me they sound like another U-turn. In four months the Government have performed a spectacular double U-turn—such athleticism and so devastating.

Of course, the amendment is now law and the FCA’s powers will become effective next April, but authorities are sensitive to what the Government say, and I am sure that they will see that heat has been taken out of the matter—that the Government no longer seem to care. I therefore want to ask the Minister three very simple questions to start with. Do the Government accept that it is reasonable for London buses to be driving around advertising loans that bear an interest rate of 4,200%? Will the Government state unequivocally that usurious interest rates are morally wrong and should be made illegal? Will the Government state emphatically that they will support the FCA in word and deed in its efforts to curb all the abuses of payday lending?

I would like to add just one more point before I turn to credit unions. In previous years loan sharks were very obvious—muscular men, probably with tattoos on their forearms and oozing menace. Their companion of choice? A pit bull terrier. Their message was crystal clear: if you don’t repay on time, you know what will happen. Today payday lending has become 21st century cool—iPhone apps, slick websites, high street offices with smiley people and flowers on the desks. They can disguise it any way they like; the fact is that they are all loan sharks. Some are legal, some are not, but they all peddle the same usury.

Fortunately, some organisations are choosing to distance themselves from these lenders. I am pleased to say that Bolton Wanderers Football Club no longer wants to be associated with QuickQuid. Unfortunately others have not been so responsible. It is a shame that great clubs like Newcastle United and Blackpool have chosen to be sponsored by Wonga, although individual players—to their credit—have bravely refused to wear its logo. Can it be that individual ethical institutions, such as the Wellcome Trust, are listed as one of Wonga’s shareholders? Following my noble friend Lord Hollick’s statement about Mr Angest, I believe that Mr Adrian Beecroft, also a major shareholder in Wonga, is similarly a major donor to the Conservative Party. I will say no more.

Let us move on to the alternatives. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, has been a champion of the credit union movement and has spoken eloquently on this subject a number of times. The combination of the excesses of the recession and the reduction in government benefits has made life doubly painful for many people in our society. More than ever it is necessary to have viable alternatives to legalised loan sharking and payday lending.

In April I saw a vivid example of this. I joined up with the Movement for Change and the Fair Credit Commission and I went to Kilburn. There I walked along the high road along with local residents. Today the street has at least 13 payday lending shops on it. It mirrors the situation in many other parts of the country. Local residents told me about members of their community running up unpayable debts. In one instance, a woman with disabled children told us how she now owed around £3,000. In another, a man with quite obvious serious learning difficulties told us how his unpaid bill with Vodafone had been sent to debt collectors when he was unable to pay. There the payday pattern of interest swung into effect—the amount outstanding rocketed as massive interest rates came into play. There are thousands upon thousands of heart-rending stories like this around the country. Some talk of suicide.

One of the more positive stories was that of a man who, like his father in Dublin, had set up a credit union in Kilburn after arriving there as a teenager. As noble Lords will be aware, the credit union movement in Ireland is particularly strong, with almost half the population using their services. It is a vivid example of their potential to expand here. This is especially needed as historically what credit unions provide reaches beyond just savings and credit to financial advice, encouraging a culture of saving. This week Glasgow Council announced plans to open a credit union account for all children starting secondary school. It is a particularly interesting step in that direction.

This kind of financial advice contrasts sharply with the growing evidence about how payday loan companies are operating. Noble Lords will also be aware of the ministerial statement last week that credit unions are now able to charge a maximum interest rate of 3% a month, a rate of interest that strikes me as just about spot on. It bears a stark comparison with the 38% charged by Wonga and others where there is no legal maximum. I hope that credit unions will be able to offer their services to more people and to run on a more secure financial footing. I also hope that they will be able to take advantage of new technology to improve their provision of low-cost credit to the people who need it. This was recommended in an ABCUL report on credit unions, and by Gillian Guy, of Citizens Advice, who wrote an article in the Financial Times this April which encouraged different providers to use modern technology to deliver financial support to those who need it. This leaves me with a thought on how to go forward—why does your Lordships’ House not set up a committee to investigate this industry?

I would like to ask the Minister some further questions. Will he confirm that the Government will continue to support credit unions, and in so doing carry on the good work of the previous Government? Will the Government reiterate their previous support for capping interest rates, confirm their support for the banning of advertising for these loans, and, finally, give their support to planning rules that would stop our high streets being completely overrun by payday lending companies?

18:30

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger of Leckie)]

My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to set out the Government’s position on payday lending and to explain how we are tackling some well recognised problems and promoting alternatives for consumers. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for tabling this debate, and indeed for his work in this whole area, and to noble Lords who have raised important points today.

In line with the coalition principles of freedom, fairness and responsibility, the Government believe that people should be free to borrow. However, we also want more people to take responsible decisions about their finances. The Government recognise that not all people who use high-cost credit can get credit elsewhere. The Bristol University report on high-cost credit found that just over three-quarters of payday customers had no access to alternative credit. We therefore agree that finding different solutions to short-term, high-cost finance is important.

Payday loans are a relatively new phenomenon. They should be used only for an emergency short-term fix and never for longer-term debt problems. For some, payday loans can be a way of managing a short-term cash flow problem—for example, a sole trader who needs to buy supplies for the next job before being paid for a previous job, or someone who needs to pay their MoT simply to get their car back on the road so that they can commute to work or perhaps for the painting and decorating fraternity in the most reverend Primate’s diocese.

The spiralling cost of credit is not the main crux of the problem. Problems arise when people take out this kind of short-term, high-cost loan when it is not suitable for them and they cannot afford to repay. As the strength of the evidence shows, part of the issue is, first, that lenders are not always conducting adequate assessments of potential borrowers’ ability to afford the loan. This was a key finding of the OFT’s payday compliance review. Secondly, as the Citizens Advice payday consumer survey found, there is poor compliance with the voluntary codes implemented by lenders last November and 82% of loans did not meet the commitment to,

“treat customers sympathetically if in financial difficulty”.

Thirdly, the Bristol report found that 60% or more of payday customers felt that it was too easy to borrow in this way and that more than four in 10 customers showed signs of financial distress. Here I echo the opening comments of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, that these reports show that the payday market is not functioning in the interests of consumers. The Government are therefore deeply concerned about the scale of consumer detriment identified, the speed and ease with which loans can be accessed, the frequency with which loans are rolled over, the grave financial and social problems arising from defaults, and the calling in of such repayments. I hope this goes some way to reassuring the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, that the Government are taking these matters extremely seriously.

Since the last significant debate on this issue in this House, we have begun to tackle these problems; my noble friend Lady Wilcox touched on this. In March, the Government and regulators announced a joint action plan to tackle the key problems, taking tough enforcement action against unscrupulous lenders and ensuring a strong robust regulatory framework for the future. Also since March, the OFT has begun clamping down on irresponsible lending practices across the payday industry as an enforcement priority. First, they have given no less 50 firms 12 weeks each to change their business practices or risk legal requirements or loss of their licence. Two firms have already surrendered their licences. Secondly, the OFT has revoked the licences of three payday lending firms and has three further investigations open. Thirdly, the OFT has consulted on referring the sector to the Competition Commission for market investigation and expect to announce a decision soon.

A further point is that the new regulator from next April—the Financial Conduct Authority—will have tough new powers to tackle early signs of consumer detriment and is looking at additional regulation on payday lending. The FCA will have powers to make binding rules, such as banning products or specific product features. It will have tougher sanctions, including imposing unlimited fines on firms and ensuring that customers can recover their loss. We will also have a more stringent bar for market entry.

The essence of this debate is the alternatives to payday lending. The Government have committed to further investment of up to £38 million to March 2015 to support and expand the credit union sector. Credit unions are community focused, and to this extent touch on the big society ethos. They are also non-profit making. Members share a common bond and often save before borrowing. The investment will enable them to provide financial services, including affordable credit, for up to 1 million additional consumers on lower incomes. Our ambition is to save low-income consumers up to £1 billion in total in loan interest repayments by March 2019. I am most grateful to the most reverend Primate for his generous support for community-based solutions, including the use of volunteers both in the church and outside.

As my noble friend Lady Wilcox so eloquently put it, an underlying issue is that we still have a culture of people wanting and expecting to be able to buy items on credit when they cannot afford them. Better financial education, raising awareness and signposting to sources of advice are key to helping people understand the alternatives to payday loans. That is why we set up the Money Advice Service to promote financial capability and to provide the tools that customers need to make informed decisions about their money. In 2013-14, the MAS is retaining its spending on debt advice provision at £27 million to maintain its target of helping around 150,000 people. In addition, MAS research found that industry invests around £25 million annually in 36 programmes, most targeted at the under-18s. The MAS is also actively engaged with the Department for Education in promoting financial education—a most important point.

The introduction of a single monthly payment of universal credit should also support the Government’s aim of encouraging people to live within their means and to take personal financial responsibility. We are working closely with the MAS and consumer advice groups to ensure that universal credit claimants are able to access budgeting support services.

Wider government work to reform the consumer landscape and to strengthen consumer rights and protections is also important. The consumer reforms that we have been bringing forward since 2010 will help markets work better, improve consumer protection and give greater clarity about where consumers should turn for help and advice.

A large number of questions were raised by noble Lords, and I will attempt to answer them all. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, raised an important point about concerns about payday loan advertising. The Government are also particularly concerned about the advertising of payday loans. People should not be lured into taking out a payday loan when it is not right for them. We have also commissioned additional research to look at the effect of payday lending advertisements on consumers’ borrowing decisions. This will report by early autumn. From April 2014, the FCA’s strong new powers will enable it to restrict the form and content of advertising. My department, BIS, is commissioning research to inform the FCA’s thinking on that.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, asked why banks cannot provide low-limit loans, backed by government support. I agree and want to see banks provide alternatives to payday loans—a point that was made by other noble Lords. However, banks have said that there is no profit in short-term loans—a point that we might all be aware of. The risk premium is high and the costs associated with lending to high-risk customers and giving them small-value loans are such that it is not profitable, so the banks say. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, that banks shy away from customers who have taken out payday loans. I had that very conversation with a senior retail executive a couple of days ago as part of my research.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, asked what the Government are doing to address the lack of ATMs in localities. Again, that is a very fair point and the Government share the noble Lord’s concerns about restricted access to ATMs. Although such decisions are operational ones for banks, so the Government do not seek to intervene, we will continue to monitor the situation closely.

My noble friend Lady Kramer raised some very interesting points, focused particularly on the opportunity for us in this country to introduce community development finance institutions, a model that I understand comes from the United States. The co-operatives consolidation Bill was announced by the Prime Minister in January 2012. Work on drafting the legislation has begun and it will be introduced in December. Although it will not contain any new legislation, it will put all legislation relating to industrial and provident societies, or co-operatives, in one place, making it easier for an IPS to be set up. We are also looking at introducing a package of measures to strengthen the co-operative sector, including increasing the withdrawable share capital limit and introducing insolvency procedures for co-operatives and credit unions. This was announced in the Budget 2013.

My noble friend Lady Wilcox, in a speech largely devoted to the issue, expressed concern at the prospect of a cap on the total cost of credit. She said that it would push the poorest and most vulnerable into having no access to credit at all. I thank my noble friend for giving an interesting historical perspective on the credit market and agree with her that a cap is not the solution for the payday market at this time. The Bristol report indicated a range of unintended consequences and risks which would harm customers rather than help them, such as a reduction of access to credit, lending charges being added outside the cap and, generally, less sympathy for those in financial difficulty. However, the Government have ensured that the FCA will have the power to cap in the future, if it is needed to protect consumers at that point. The FCA will start analysis on whether to use the new power from April 2014.

My noble friend Lady Kramer asked about the government commitment to disclose banking data on a postcode-by-postcode basis. It looks as if this will be delivered on a voluntary basis. The noble Baroness referred to the voluntary agreement that the Treasury is seeking to negotiate with lenders on disclosure of postcode-level data. I, too, am confident that such a deal will be struck and I commend the noble Baroness on her sterling work in this particular area.

The most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury raised the issue of the need to cut out “legal usury” from our high streets in a general comment at the beginning of his speech. It is a most interesting comment but I do not believe that it is the Government’s role to stop or ban payday loans. As I mentioned earlier, such loans serve a purpose. They can provide emergency cash for those who can afford to repay it. In line with coalition values, we want people to remain free to make their own choices, as my noble friend Lady Wilcox said, about whether and how to borrow, if it is right for them. However, in contrast, I would say that there is a duty on government to control, regulate and curb irresponsible lending, to empower consumers to make the right choices and to protect vulnerable consumers where that is needed.

The noble Lord, Lord Hollick, raised points about including international investors and about payday lenders making profits off the most vulnerable consumers. These were interesting points. It is important to remember that payday lending is a relatively new phenomenon, as I said earlier. The market has doubled in size in just four years but is still relatively small. To put it into perspective, it is worth between £2 billion and £2.2 billion, which is less than 5% of the total credit market.

However, we must bear in mind that those affected are the most vulnerable, as I said earlier. This has meant that there is very little evidence of the problems and causes, but we now have a better evidence base, including the Bristol report and the OFT compliance report. Consumer groups have also been adding to the evidence base. That is why we announced strong action plans in March to tackle the serious problems that were highlighted very broadly in today’s debate.

My noble friend Lady Kramer mentioned the lack of alternatives. That is not a reason not to cap. It just means that we also have to work on this as well—a point she spoke passionately about. I understand the attractions on the face of it, but, as I mentioned earlier and I stress again, we do not believe a cap is the solution at the moment. The Bristol report indicated a range of unintended consequences and risks, harming the consumers we want to help.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said the figure of £35 million—I say it is £38 million—funding for credit union expansion was a “drop in the ocean”. I welcome the noble Lord’s support for recent government initiatives such as the legislative reform order, increasing the interest cap and the credit union expansion project. The project aims to help 1 million people on low incomes, to enable credit unions to reduce costs and to reduce the need for further government funding by making them more sustainable.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and the most reverend Primate asked whether the Government would host a summit on payday lending. The strong action plan announced in March by the Government and regulators, which we are taking forward, also includes discussions to see whether we can work in concert with industry and consumer groups to look towards a summit.

I have run out of time. I regret that I do not have time to answer the few further questions that were raised, but I will most certainly write to all noble Lords. In conclusion, our assessment of the alternatives to payday lending is that it is about not just improving access to more affordable credit but about making a fundamental change in our culture, so that consumers can take personal financial responsibility, borrow responsibly and live within their means. It is also about ensuring adequate support for the vulnerable who need it. We believe that the Government’s initiatives will help address these problems.

House adjourned at 6.47 pm.