House of Commons
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Oral Answers to Questions
(13 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
1. What plans he has to promote new initiatives to encourage organ donation.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anne Milton)
Sustained work at national, regional and local level has seen an increase in donor rates by some 28% since 2008. We continue to work with a large number of organisations, such as the Give and Let Live initiative in schools, which is run by NHS Blood and Transplant. Other initiatives include requiring people to answer a question about organ donation when applying for a driving licence and to sign on the organ donor register when applying for a European health insurance card or for a Boots advantage card. We also have specific initiatives within the black and minority ethnic populations, such as working with faith groups and local radio stations.
Duncan Hames
I recently met young campaigners from Sign Up, Speak Up, Save Lives whose organ donation campaign features on Channel 4’s “Battlefront” programme. Will the Minister please meet Hope, Abby and me, together with the Minister responsible for constitutional reform, so that we may discuss with them both our idea of inviting people to join the organ donor register at the same time as they will soon be asked to join the electoral register?
Anne Milton
I congratulate Sign Up, Speak Up, Save Lives. I am happy to meet Hope, Abby and the hon. Gentleman, along with the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper). The electoral registration form has been used as an opportunity. In 2000 there was a campaign called Vote for Life, which was stopped after about 15 months because of problems with the Representation of the People Act. I would be happy to revisit it and would enjoy an opportunity to discuss the matter further. Anything we can do to get those rates up matters.
Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)
The reorganisation of NHS procurement has been described in a National Audit Office report as fragmented and poor value for money. The report shows—
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)
What discussion has the Minister had with Welsh Ministers who are bringing forward legislation for an opt-out system of organ donation? If she has had such discussions, what conclusions has she drawn?
Anne Milton
The Government will examine thoroughly the detail of any Assembly Bill when it is laid before the Assembly, but I urge Wales to look at the evidence. We can look back to what happened in Spain, where there was presumed consent for 10 years without any shift in organ donation rates. The issue is more complex than that. It is about organ donor transplant co-ordinators and increasing donations from emergency medicine. A number of measures need to be put in place to increase those rates.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Will my hon. Friend be kind enough to meet Mr Adam Crizzle, who was the original inspiration behind the Give and Let Live organ donation programme in schools, to see how the promotion of this excellent scheme might be further improved?
Anne Milton
I would be very happy to meet that gentleman. There is no doubt that promoting this in schools has a profound impact and is an opportunity to change people’s attitudes to organ donation and, more importantly, makes families discuss it, which is critical. It is not just about signing on to the register.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
Last week I had the opportunity to meet members of the Ticker club, an organisation of former heart patients who continue to provide support to patients at Wythenshawe hospital, a specialist centre for cardiac and thoracic surgery, including heart and lung transplants. They have strong opinions on organ donation, so will the Minister agree to involve such groups in ongoing campaigns to raise awareness of the benefits?
Anne Milton
I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising that issue. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has visited that hospital, and I am happy to work with any group. I reiterate the fact that we particularly need to work with black and minority ethnic groups, in which the rates of donation are truly dreadful: 23% of people on waiting lists are from black and minority ethnic communities, but only 1.2% of those on the register are from that same group. We need to do everything we can to improve those rates.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
2. What steps he is taking to reduce NHS hospital indebtedness.
George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con)
14. What steps he is taking to reduce NHS hospital indebtedness.
The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley)
The national health service is forecasting a surplus for 2011-12, but the previous Government left a legacy of up to six hospital trusts whose private finance initiative payments are a risk to their financial sustainability and up to 24 trusts with such high levels of debt, following years of bail-outs, that they might not meet tests of their future financial sustainability. We are working with all of those to identify their individual needs so that we can help trusts to achieve consistent standards of quality and financial sustainability, and I will make an announcement on that later this year.
Mr Rob Wilson
I thank my right hon. Friend for spelling out the appalling debt that some parts of the NHS inherited from the previous Government. Can he assure me and the House that this Government will deal with the root causes of hospital debt, rather than with the continuing bungs and bail-outs that the previous Government left?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We are determined to root out poor performance, by which I mean not only that we should deal with waste, inefficiencies and poor value for money in the NHS, but that we must identify where standards and quality of care are being met. Both are equally important, and one depends on the other. He will know from the Royal Berkshire NHS Foundation Trust how important it is to sustain finances and quality through foundation trust status. We are seeking to ensure that many NHS trusts reach foundation trust status, something that the previous Government failed to achieve and we aim to achieve.
George Eustice
The Secretary of State will be aware of the indebtedness of the Royal Cornwall Hospitals NHS Trust, and that Cornwall as a whole has suffered a disadvantage for many years as a result of the previous Government’s funding formula, having actually received less than the Department’s target budget for many years. Does he agree that such factors should be taken into account when deciding how to reschedule the debts of such trusts?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend will know, from our conversations and from my visit to Cornwall and the Royal Cornwall Hospitals NHS Trust, the steps that we are taking alongside other NHS trusts to bring them up to high standards of care and financial sustainability. In that regard, the 3.1% increase in revenue allocations for the Cornwall and Isles of Scilly primary care trust between last year and this year will help Cornwall as a whole towards greater financial sustainability.
Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)
I am grateful, Mr Speaker. On indebtedness, the National Audit Office has produced a report on NHS procurement in England, which it describes as “fragmented” and “poor value for money”. The report shows that £500 million could be saved each year if trusts came together to buy products more collaboratively. Is this further evidence that the Government are wrong to pursue an agenda of competition, rather than co-operation?
Mr Lansley
I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is completely wrong about that. In procurement throughout the NHS, what we have had is fragmentation, and what we need is better co-ordination. That is precisely why, since the election, for example, we have instituted a consistent bar-coding system, allowing procurement throughout the NHS to be undertaken more effectively; and why under the quality, innovation, prevention and productivity programme, the improvement in procurement —reducing the costs of procurement—is intended to achieve those savings and more.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
Labour is proud of its legacy, with more than 100 new hospitals built to replace the crumbling Victorian buildings that we inherited in 1997, and it is not just the National Audit Office that has blown a hole in the Secretary of State’s assertion that 22 hospital trusts are on the brink of financial collapse due to PFI. John Appleby of the King’s Fund said:
“The…pressures on hospitals are not to do with PFI but…the need to generate £20bn worth of productivity improvements.”
Is not the real issue that the Secretary of State has tied up the NHS in a distracting and wasteful reorganisation that will cost more money than it will save, and take money away from patient care?
Mr Lansley
I welcome the hon. Gentleman to the Opposition Front-Bench position. We are looking forward to the exchanges with him and his colleagues, including during questions today.
Twenty-two trusts have told us, in the course of our looking at where the impediments are to their financial sustainability for the future, that the nature of the PFI contracts entered into by the previous Government is a significant problem in this respect. It is absolutely right for the NHS to build hospitals, which is why we are, for example, building a new hospital at Whitehaven in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. [Interruption.] I beg his pardon—in the constituency of the hon. Member for Copeland (Mr Reed); we are building so many new hospitals. The nature of the PFI projects we enter into must be to provide value for money and be sustainable in the future. That is something that the previous Government failed to achieve.
Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)
3. What representations he has received on the reorganisation of urgent care in the past six months.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns)
A search of the Department of Health’s database revealed that 131 items of correspondence, and five parliamentary questions relating to the reorganisation of urgent care were received in the past six months. In addition, I have received three requests to meet MPs on this subject.
Steve Baker
Wycombe hospital is currently going through a consultation on a change to urgent care services, and it is doing so in the context of the betrayal felt after “Shaping Health Services” in 2004, which removed our accident and emergency department. I would like to escape this cycle through mutuality. What is the Government’s position on mutuality? Will the Minister join my call for directly owned community health services?
Mr Burns
The Government have supported the right to request, which has enabled 45 staff-led social enterprises to be established. This policy has supported approximately 25,000 staff into social enterprises, with contracts of roughly £900 million. NHS staff have been assisted by a wide-ranging programme of support from the Department.
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
Has not the Government’s so-called moratorium on the reconfiguration of services put back improvements to urgent care by several years? The Minister inherited perfectly coherent plans for every region in England under the auspices of Lord Darzi’s next-stage review. How many lives have been lost and how much money has been wasted by the tearing up of those plans?
Mr Burns
I am afraid that the right hon. Gentleman is wrong. It is not holding back the national health service; it is moving it forward with things such as the establishment of the 111 service and the reconfiguration proposals, which are based on the four tests that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State introduced in May last year. That not only links reconfiguration to the needs of the local health economy but takes into account the wishes and needs of the local community and medical staff.
Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the improved delivery of urgent care right across the health service is one of the great challenges facing the new commissioning structure and one of the great opportunities to deliver more integrated services that deliver better value and better quality to patients?
Mr Burns
I am extremely grateful to my right hon. Friend; speaking with the authority of the Chair of the Health Committee, he is absolutely right. It is the way forward to drive improvements in service, raise standards and ensure that there is high-class, quality care at an urgent care level and across the acute sector.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
4. What assessment he has made of the potential effects of NHS reorganisation on the protection and improvement of public health.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anne Milton)
Our reforms put public health at the heart of the new system. The creation of Public Health England, alongside significant new functions and, for the first time, ring-fenced budgets for local authorities, will give public health an unprecedented level of priority. The new local authority role integrates public health with other local authority functions that impact on people’s health.
Diana Johnson
Under the previous Government, NHS Hull saw excellent results in improving public health. Under the current Government, Kingston upon Hull’s teaching primary care trust has seen a 2.6% cut this year compared with Kingston upon Thames PCT getting a 2% increase—and Hull city council has a 9% cut in its funding as well. What does the Minister think will happen to public health in areas such as Hull with those kinds of cuts?
Anne Milton
I think that public health in areas such as Hull will do exceptionally well. I point out to the hon. Lady that under the previous Government, what happened in practice was that public health budgets were raided constantly and we did not get improvements. If she looks at the figures, she will see that inequalities in health widened.
Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that despite the previous Government’s good intentions on public health, health inequalities have widened, as she has rightly said, obesity rates are going up, smoking among young girls is going up, and alcohol abuse is a serious problem? Does she agree that it is right to deliver services with local authorities and to get into local communities and schools if we want to address these big public health challenges?
Anne Milton
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Local authorities have a long and proud tradition of improving the public’s health. Public Health England will bring together a fragmented system and strengthen our national response on emergencies and health protection. It will help public health delivery at a local level with proper evidence and leadership.
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)
Contrary to the Minister’s statement that the Health and Social Care Bill will put public health at the heart of the health service, 40 directors of public health and 400 public health academics, including Michael Marmot, wrote to The Daily Telegraph to say that the Health and Social Care Bill will
“widen health inequalities; waste much money on attempts to regulate and manage competition; and undermine the ability of the health system to respond…to communicable disease outbreaks”,
and that it will
“disrupt, fragment and weaken the country’s public health capabilities.”
How can the Minister put her judgment against that of those doctors and experts? Is not the proposal that more than 40 specialist neonatal units may lose staff in the coming year an example of the weakening of public health that is involved in the Bill and the Government’s proposals?
Anne Milton
I draw the hon. Lady’s attention to the fact that the Health and Social Care Bill proposes for the first time a duty on the Secretary of State to have regard to health inequalities, which, I repeat, widened under the previous Government. I also point out to her that the letter to peers signed by Professor Marmot and others welcomed the emphasis on establishing a closer working relationship between public health and local government. I suggest that the hon. Lady gets out more, because she would hear from public health doctors and local authorities on the ground who welcome these changes.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
5. What steps he is taking to reduce the burden on NHS hospitals of (a) PFI repayments and (b) debt.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns)
A study conducted by the Treasury has identified savings opportunities of up to 5% on annual payments in NHS PFI schemes. The Cabinet’s Efficiency and Reform Group is rolling out a programme of work to secure savings of up to £1.5 billion across the 495 PFI contracts in the public sector in England.
Lorely Burt
Contrary to the earlier complacent comments of the Opposition spokesman, some national health trusts are paying up to 20% of their revenue to PFI contracts. What steps can we take to ensure that the payments are reduced and that the same terrible financial situation never happens again?
Mr Burns
I am grateful to the hon. Lady. I, too, recognise the small number of organisations that are reporting financial challenges. The Department is continuing to work with strategic health authorities to ensure that those organisations have robust plans in place for financial recovery, while ensuring the quality of services for patients.
John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab)
On the subject of financial pressures on hospitals, does the Minister recall the circular to hospitals from Monitor that was smuggled out on the eve of the royal wedding, which raised the requirement for efficiency cutbacks on hospitals from 4% to 6.5%, which is more than £1 billion in this year alone? Will he admit that the service cutbacks that we are seeing in many hospitals around the country are deeper, as that circular confirms, directly because of the Government’s policies?
Mr Burns
No, I do not recognise that, because the figure that the right hon. Gentleman has used is an upper calculation, not an actual figure. I say to him that we are making efficiency savings, and that trusts should be cutting not front-line services but inefficiency, waste and excessive management, and reinvesting every single penny in front-line services.
Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)
6. What steps he is taking to ensure that patients receive accurate and unbiased information on treatment options.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul Burstow)
The NHS constitution gives people a right to information about their treatment options. I want everyone to get timely, trustworthy information such as patient decision aids, so that they are involved in their care decisions. The Health and Social Care Bill will ensure that the commissioning board and clinical commissioning groups secure that.
Helen Jones
In the light of that answer, will the Minister condemn the decision by GPs in Haxby to use NHS data to tout the services of their own private company and give wrong information to patients? Or is that simply a foretaste of what will happen under the Health and Social Care Bill when clinical commissioning groups decide what services are necessary, leaving private companies in which they may have an interest to pick up the slack in a privatised, marketised NHS in which patients come last?
Paul Burstow
The hon. Lady is spreading yet more myths and misconceptions about the reforms that this Government are making. If she had researched the matter more thoroughly, she would know that there is a code of conduct for the promotion of NHS-funded services, which makes it clear that providers of primary medical services cannot directly or indirectly seek or accept from any of their patients payment or other remuneration for any treatment. As a result, the PCT is questioning that clinic about how it has used patient information and will continue to pursue the matter.
David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that many patients look to NHS Choices for accurate and unbiased information? Is he aware that its site on homeopathy is both biased and inaccurate? As the Department has had a long-standing review that has not reported, will he—
Paul Burstow
If the hon. Gentleman would care to write to me setting out where he believes there are inaccuracies, we will examine them.
Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)
It is good to be back. I see that in my absence, the Secretary of State has at last made some progress with his plans for a US-style health care system.
I have a letter sent by the practice that my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) mentioned a moment ago, in which it wrote that
“we can no longer offer your procedure as one of our NHS services…I am writing to make you aware of some of the options that you have to have the procedure completed as a private patient.”
Helpfully, it enclosed a leaflet announcing the practice’s new private minor operations service. Can the Minister point me to any part of the Health and Social Care Bill that will prevent that practice in future?
Paul Burstow
I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman could have pointed me to any such arrangements in current legislation. There is none. However, Dr David Geddes, the medical director of NHS North Yorkshire and York, has stated:
“We have some concerns about the activities of the Haxby and Wigginton health centre in York and we will be discussing these issues with them directly as a matter of urgency. These concerns are around possible breaches of the Data Protection Act and the accuracy of the information sent to patients. For example, of the eight procedures they list, three are routinely funded by NHS North Yorkshire and York”.
Let us be clear that when he was Secretary of State, that PCT was in a worse financial state.
Andy Burnham
That is total bluster, because that vision is precisely what the Government want to do to our NHS. As my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North said, it is a terrifying glimpse of a Tory NHS in future—not a national health service but a postcode lottery writ large, in which, as we read today, random rationing is taking place around the country. The NHS is in chaos because the Secretary of State made the mistake of combining a £2.5 billion reorganisation, at a time when every ounce of energy should be focused on the NHS front line. This Secretary of State has placed our national health service in the danger zone, and he has lost the confidence of GPs, nurses and midwives. Is it not time that he stopped digging in, listened to NHS staff and dropped this damaging Bill?
Paul Burstow
That was a good example of bluster—perhaps that is what we will see from the Opposition under the right hon. Gentleman’s stewardship.
The right hon. Gentleman ought to be aware, because it happened on his watch, that primary care trusts and strategic health authorities have seen their management costs increase by more than £1 billion. There was a 120% increase from 2002 to when this Government took office. That is why we are determined to cut overhead costs in the NHS, so that we can reinvest every penny in the front line.
Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con)
7. What recent representations he has received from Berkshire East primary care trust on the future of Heatherwood hospital in Ascot.
The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley)
I have received no such representations.
Adam Afriyie
My constituents are shocked to discover that yet again, the future of Heatherwood is under threat. I have had sight of a major petition, and I am actively campaigning with hard-working local councillors, activists and residents to uncover why Heatherwood’s future is under threat when the funding from the Government to the region has increased. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Berkshire East PCT must cut its bureaucracy costs and introduce efficiencies before threatening the money to Heatherwood hospital and other local services?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend and completely understand what he is saying. In this financial year compared to the previous one, revenue available to Berkshire East PCT increased by £16.3 million. That is just one part of the £3.8 billion increase in revenue resources available to the NHS this year compared with last year.
Although I very much welcome the shadow Secretary of State to his new position, we will miss his predecessor. We welcome the new shadow Secretary of State not least because he might begin to explain to the NHS why he thought it was irresponsible to increase resources to the NHS in real terms by about £3.8 billion—
Mr Speaker
Order. I am grateful to the Secretary of State, but we have a lot to get through. He will resume his seat—and I know he will do so happily.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
One reason for those increases in resources is the growing birth rate in that part of Berkshire. Slough mums who want to use the Ascot birthing centre at Heatherwood have been locked out since the end of September because of a lack of midwives. If the Government had provided the 3,000 midwives they promised, that centre would not be shut. What does the Secretary of State say to that?
Mr Lansley
As the hon. Lady knows, I am very familiar with Heatherwood, because I have two daughters who were born there in the days when it had an obstetrics service, which disappeared under the previous Government. She also knows that I visited Wexham Park in September last year to announce support to the trust in the form of loans, based on commercial principles, totalling £18 million. There is no shortage of midwives under this Government compared with the previous one. Since the election, 522 additional midwives have been recruited, and we are maintaining a record level of midwifery training places.
Decisions made locally are a matter for local commissioners. If they seek to change services, they must meet the four tests that I set out shortly after the election.
Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab)
The hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) is absolutely right to raise concerns about the future of Heatherwood hospital, as are Members on both sides of the House who raise such concerns about their hospitals, such as Chase Farm.
The Health Service Journal reports that the Department of Health is discussing a hospital closure programme, and yet the Prime Minister has promised to fight bare knuckled against any hospital closures. Will the Secretary of State tell us today categorically—yes or no—whether it is still his policy to have a moratorium on hospital closures? If so, for how long will the moratorium last?
Mr Lansley
I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his position. The Government are rebuilding his hospital, so it is slightly ironic that he attacks us on that point.
The answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question is that the Government are pursuing no plan for hospital closures. We are doing precisely what I said we are doing: we are working with hospital trusts across the country to ensure that before they reconfigure their services, they must meet key tests on patient access and choice, local authority support, commissioners’ views, and the clinical safety and evidence base. We are working with many of the NHS trusts that the previous Government left in a serious position to ensure that they reach quality and financial sustainability.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
8. When he expects to make a final decision on the safe and sustainable review into children’s heart surgery units in England.
The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley)
This is a clinically led, independent review, within the NHS. The joint committee of primary care trusts, on behalf of NHS commissioners, will make decisions on the future pattern of children’s heart surgery services in England. The review is expected to report before the end of the year.
Andrew Jones
I am sure that the Secretary of State recognises the huge and spirited campaign by local people to retain the children’s heart unit at Leeds general infirmary. Will he confirm that option E, which would retain the Leeds unit, will receive full and equal consideration by the joint committee of primary care trusts?
Mr Lansley
The review will develop the recommendations to ensure that children’s heart surgery services deliver the very highest standard of care for children and their families. The joint committee of primary care trusts will consider all the relevant evidence before making a decision on the future configuration of children’s heart surgery services, and I hope that that will reassure my hon. Friend.
I should emphasise that no aspect of this review is driven by money: it is entirely about how to ensure sustainable high-quality surgery. The issue is in how many and which centres surgical teams should be based in order to maintain that high-quality care.
Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
There is a deep-rooted belief that this review is biased against the survival of the Leeds unit. Will the Minister therefore please assure the House that the decision will be made purely on the evidence, and not on the basis of any preconceived idea of which units should survive and which should not?
Mr Lansley
It is an independent review and I can assure the hon. Lady that that is indeed the case. It will be based on the evidence. I am sure that she will have heard the response to a debate earlier in the year by the Minister of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), who said that while the review has put forward options for consideration, it should not be constrained to consider only those options.
Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the criteria for the review remain the same; that the rather strange remarks—about more people having voted for one option but more organisations having voted for another—have not affected them; and that those criteria will be used to judge the decision?
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
This review came about as a result of the tragic Bristol heart babies scandal in the 1990s, and it is a measure of the quality of services at Bristol children’s hospital that it is now being considered for all four options under the consultation. A few weeks ago, I abseiled down the children’s hospital for Wallace & Gromit’s Grand Appeal, which is an excellent charity. However, will the Secretary of State assure me that, with the move to fewer and larger specialised units, they will be properly funded and will not rely on MPs throwing themselves off tall buildings?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to the hon. Lady. All the representations that we have received in the debates in this House are ample evidence of the high regard and support that Members have for their children’s heart surgery services. None of this is about saving money or resources. It is entirely about what delivers the best quality surgical services for children with cardiac problems. To that extent, the intention is that those services—once the decision has been made—are fully funded.
Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)
9. What progress he has made on reducing the number of foreign nationals using NHS services without payment.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns)
We have updated and simplified regulations and guidance on identifying and charging visitors who must pay. Immigration rules now before Parliament will allow the UK Borders Agency to refuse entry to visitors with an unpaid debt to the NHS, and we are now reviewing this area more fundamentally to identify further improvements.
Chris Skidmore
I thank the Minister for that answer. On 19 July, I spoke in the House about foreign nationals using the NHS without payment and, having entered a freedom of information request to each foundation trust and PCT, I now have a more accurate picture of the sums involved. It suggests that some £15 million has been completely written off. Will the Minister meet me to discuss the findings and what possible solutions might be found to tackle this important issue?
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
There is a relatively painless way to deal with this. At the time that the visa is applied for, the person should sign an undertaking that they will pay the costs of NHS treatment. Will the Minister talk to the Minister for Immigration to see whether it is possible to introduce such a requirement?
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
10. What representations he has received on the need for effective and clear distinction in uniforms worn by fully trained nurses and other workers in the care sector.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul Burstow)
The Department receives occasional representations from individuals and groups about uniforms, including the need to distinguish between staff groups. Guidance is available to help employers set sensible policies and, in line with Government policy to reduce central control, we expect decisions on uniforms to be made locally.
Mark Pawsey
There is real concern about the lack of distinction between the uniforms worn by qualified nurses and care workers. The latter are free to wear whatever uniform they like and often give the impression that they are medically qualified. This presents a risk to patients, especially because more and more vulnerable elderly patients are being treated in their homes. Will the Minister look again at this to see what action could be taken to clarify the situation?
Paul Burstow
My hon. Friend has written to me about this matter on behalf of a constituent. The responsibility sits in three places: first, providers have a responsibility to provide clear information to people receiving services from them about who is providing that service; secondly, commissioners have a responsibility for how they contract for those services; and thirdly the Care Quality Commission has a responsibility to regulate those services. Undoubtedly, however, I would be more than happy to look further at the points he makes.
Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con)
11. What assessment he has of the provision of ventilation machines and related equipment for patients with muscle-wasting diseases who experience respiratory difficulties; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul Burstow)
Local health bodies have responsibility for ensuring that adequate provision of health services is made available to those living with neuromuscular conditions. All specialised commissioning groups have now completed their reviews of neuromuscular services, which are a priority in the annual work plans of each of the specialised commissioning groups in 2011-12.
Karl MᶜCartney
I thank the Minister for that answer, but will he also outline the steps being taken to ensure that there is adequate knowledge about neuromuscular conditions among general practitioners and health professionals in Lincoln, so that referrals to the specialist respiratory service in Nottingham can be provided as appropriate?
Paul Burstow
My hon. Friend is right to raise the issue of ensuring sufficient awareness of the pathways that exist for people to gain access to those services. I understand that the east midlands specialised commissioning group has recently carried out a review of non-invasive ventilation services. I shall ask the group to write to him in more detail.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
12. What steps he is taking to assist patients to access a greater range of NHS services.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns)
The NHS constitution gives patients the right to make choices about their care. The Government are committed to empowering patients. Our goal is for patients to have more choice of treatment.
Alec Shelbrooke
What steps is my hon. Friend taking to ensure that my constituents requiring cardiac services will have access to the care that they need in Leeds?
Mr Burns
My hon. Friend raises an important and controversial issue, as he will have heard when listening to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State earlier and the debates that he has attended in the House on this subject. We are determined that proper facilities will be made available, based not on money but on the high quality of care, particularly for children. An independent review is being carried out by the joint committee of primary care trusts, which is expected to announce its recommendations later this year.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Has the Minister considered exchanging expertise with the regions of Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales? That exchange could take place without any charge.
Mr Burns
The hon. Gentleman raises a valid point. The NHS in England has regular contact and discussions with the NHS in other parts of the United Kingdom, and will continue to do so because both the UK and the devolved authorities can learn a considerable amount from sharing views and practice.
Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
13. What recent estimate he has made of the number of midwives working in the NHS.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anne Milton)
There were 20,654 full-time equivalents in June 2011—a rise of 522 or 2.6% since May 2010. That is a record.
Hazel Blears
The Minister might know that the midwife-led unit at Salford Royal hospital is due to open in the next few weeks, and I want to put on the record my thanks to the midwives there who carry the heaviest work load in the north-west and are doing a brilliant job. She will not know, however, that last year there were 2,500 extra births in Greater Manchester that were neither expected nor planned for, that there are current vacancies for midwives at St Mary’s hospital and that mothers are being pressured to leave hospital sometimes within two or three hours of giving birth. What assurances can she give me that the same standards of safety and quality applying at Salford Royal will be available to Salford families in the future?
Anne Milton
We need to ensure that they are, which is one of the reasons we have asked the Centre for Workforce Intelligence to undertake a pretty in-depth study of the nursing maternity work force during 2011-12. I can reassure the right hon. Lady that the current number of midwifery students entering training is at a record level—more than 2,500—and I join her in paying tribute to our midwives.
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
After the recent inquiry into the Furness General hospital maternity unit, will the Minister confirm that she will give full support to midwives across the Morecambe Bay trust area and that the excellent midwife-led unit at Westmorland General hospital in Kendal will be protected?
Anne Milton
I always give my full support to midwives, but we must not forget that this is about teamwork as well. There has been an increase in the number of maternity support workers, who also play a critical role, as do the obstetricians and gynaecologists, all of whom have increased in numbers as well.
Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)
15. What progress he has made on reducing rates of hospital-acquired infections.
The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley)
The NHS is making significant process toward the zero-tolerance approach that we have made it clear it should adopt in respect of all avoidable health care-associated infections. Over the past 12 months MRSA bloodstream infections have fallen by 29% and C. difficile infections have fallen by 17%.
Andrew Rosindell
I thank the Secretary of State for his reply. Will he confirm that the Government will continue with the zero-tolerance approach to hospital-acquired infections as the only sure way to resolve and eradicate this problem?
Mr Lansley
Yes, my hon. Friend is absolutely right; indeed, we are extending the range and frequency of the publication of data relating to infections to support the NHS in that work. With his commendable consistency, my hon. Friend asked a question on exactly this subject on 8 March, when he raised the issue of the Barking, Havering and Redbridge trust. I am pleased to be able to report that in the past five months C. difficile infections in the trust have fallen by 57% in comparison with the same five months of 2010, while MRSA bloodstream infections have been reduced by 25%. I expect the trust to continue to bear down on those and other infections in future.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley)
My responsibility is to lead the NHS in delivering improved health outcomes in England; to lead a public health service that improves the health of the nation and reduces health inequalities; and to lead the reform of adult social care which supports and protects vulnerable people.
Kerry McCarthy
In the wake of the former Defence Secretary’s resignation and the fact that 40 peers who voted on the Health and Social Care Bill have private sector health interests, and given the Secretary of State’s known connections with private health care companies, can he assure the House that he has been as transparent as possible about the influence of private health care companies on the passage of the Bill?
Mr Lansley
I am sorry, but I think the hon. Lady should withdraw that. I have no connection with private health care companies, and if I did, I would have entered it in the register of Members’ interests.
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the Secretary of State, who has put the position very explicitly on the record.
Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con)
T2. The coalition agreement states:“Doctors and nurses need to be able to use their professional judgement about what is right for patients and we will support this by giving front-line staff more control of their working environment.” That being the case, can my right hon. Friend explain why, despite national clinical guidelines, GPs in my constituency face financial penalties if they do not meet targets for reducing the cost of the drugs that they prescribe?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and I understand that Kent and Medway primary care trust is working to incentivise the optimisation of medicines usage. We provide advice through the National Prescribing Centre and in other ways, and we support that work with GPs through the structure of the quality and outcomes framework. However, this is about incentivisation for best prescribing practice, not about financial penalties.
Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab)
Many families will be deeply concerned about standards of care for older people in hospitals following the Care Quality Commission’s recent report. Patients and the public must be confident that all the necessary steps are being taken immediately to tackle this issue. Months after its initial inspections, will the Minister confirm that the CQC has revisited only six of the 17 hospitals that were failing to ensure that older people had enough food and drink, and if so, can he explain why?
Mr Lansley
Let me make it clear to the hon. Lady, whom I welcome to her new responsibilities, that the reason the Care Quality Commission undertook unannounced nurse-led inspections in hospitals to look at issues of dignity and nutrition was that I asked it to. As an independent regulator, it must make its own decisions about what it does, but I have been clear in my conversations with the Care Quality Commission that it is moving from the tick-box regulatory approach inherited from Labour to one focused on going out there and finding out where there is poor performance. The CQC is shining a light—not least at our request—on poor performance and poor care in the NHS, and it will continue to do so.
Mr Speaker
Order. I remind the House that there is intense interest, and therefore there is a premium on brevity from Back and Front Benchers alike.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
T4. Several of my constituents, including members of the Cure the NHS group, have raised concerns over the way in which “Do not attempt resuscitation” notices are used in hospitals. Will the Secretary of State tell the House what the NHS is doing to ensure that the national guidance is followed?
Mr Lansley
This is an area in which the medical director of the NHS, the General Medical Council and others issue guidance to the NHS. I will gladly write to my hon. Friend setting out the details.
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
T3. I know that I am not alone in being an MP who represents pharmacists who are struggling on a daily basis to access life-saving drugs to treat asthma, diabetes and cancer, even to the point at which some of them are running out of those products. What more can the Secretary of State do to ensure that manufacturers and wholesalers have those life-saving drugs that people’s lives depend on? This is not good enough. What more can the Government do?
Mr Lansley
The hon. Gentleman will know that we inherited significant supply problems to pharmacies from the previous Government, not least because of the exchange rate and the possibility of countertrade. We have worked with the industry to resolve those issues. The hon. Gentleman would be well advised to talk to the Welsh Assembly Government about the fact that patients in Wales cannot access the latest cancer medicines, as patients in England can do under the cancer drugs fund.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
T6. Today is anti-slavery day, and our excellent Prime Minister will be hosting a reception at Downing street tomorrow to promote the new Government anti-trafficking strategy. That strategy includes a requirement for the health service to be proactive in identifying victims of trafficking. What progress has been made on that?
Mr Lansley
I am sure that we all share my hon. Friend’s view of the great importance of this matter. The Department of Health leads on ensuring that health care is available to people who have been rescued by the police from human trafficking. We also lead on promoting an awareness that local government has multi-agency safeguarding processes to assist in supporting people who have been abused and harmed. There is more to say, but I will write to my hon. Friend on the subject.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
T5. In the evidence session on the Health and Social Care Bill, the Secretary of State told me that he was committed to reducing health inequalities. We also heard from the Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for Guildford (Anne Milton) on that subject a few moments ago. Will the right hon. Gentleman therefore explain why he made a political decision last December, against the advice of the Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation, to reduce the health inequalities component of primary care trusts’ target funding from 15% to 20%, in effect shifting funding from poor health areas such as my constituency to richer health areas such as his own? The Government are saying one thing—
Mr Lansley
I made no decision contrary to the advice of the Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation. If the hon. Lady cares to look at the increase in revenue allocations to primary care trusts across the country, she will see that many of the lowest allocations are in richer areas and the highest are in the most needy areas.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
T8. Last week, a survey found that 80% of people want more choice in how and where they are treated. Does that not show that the Government are absolutely right to press on with modernising the NHS?
Mr Lansley
Yes, it was absolutely clear that the public wanted choice of treatment. That is one of the reasons that we have published some of the patient decision aids for the first time, and we will continue to do more. People want a choice in the consultant-led team that will provide their treatment, and in the hospital where that will happen. In the past few weeks, we have set out the details of how we are going to give patients the choice that they seek.
John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)
T7. I have noticed a growing creeping privatisation of cleaning contracts in the NHS this year. Does this signify a return to the old Tory days of longer waiting lists and dirty hospitals?
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns)
The hon. Gentleman seems to be somewhat confused. This is not about privatisation in a derogatory sense, as he is trying to suggest. For many years, including the 13 years of the Labour Government, hospital cleaning services in NHS hospitals were put out to tender, and many private companies provided the service. That is simply continuing.
Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)
T9. I am a long-standing supporter of independent sector treatment centres and of the need for commissioners to be able to bring in private and voluntary sector providers, as well as alternative NHS provision where existing services fail to improve—[Interruption.] I see that some Labour Members, including the hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall), disagree, but does at least the Secretary of State agree—
Mr Lansley
I will not interrupt the hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) who is replying from a sedentary position. I agree with my hon. Friend. What we heard under the Labour Government appears to be very much at odds and not at all in keeping with what we hear from the Labour Opposition now. Let me remind my hon. Friend that the South Gloucestershire primary care trust has received a cash increase of £10 million, or 3%, this year. Like every other part of England, it is receiving increases in resources this year that the shadow Health Secretary opposed.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
May I ask the Secretary of State to look back at issues of public health? What is he doing to provide leadership in this sector, especially when we talk to people at the top of the health service who say that there are real problems with obesity in nurses and smoking among doctors? Where is the leadership coming on those issues?
Mr Lansley
Let me just give the hon. Gentleman one or two examples. In the last few days, we have published an obesity call to action, which sets out national ambitions to reduce calorie consumption to a point where people can maintain a healthy weight or reduce their weight. We have set out a tobacco control plan, which is regarded as a leader across the world. About three weeks ago, I attended the United Nations General Assembly in order to join in debates with colleagues on reducing the tide of non-communicable diseases across the world. There is also the work of Sir Michael Marmot, which we share with him; he knows that we are taking it forward nationally and internationally to tackle the wider social determinants of health. That is why we have put local government leadership on health improvement at the heart of the Health and Social Care Bill.
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
Mr Paul Eccles is a constituent of mine. He is a qualified care assistant who wants to go freelance and set up his own business, helping people in their own homes. However, the annual up-front £1,000 charge of the Care Quality Commission is preventing him from starting this new venture. Will the Secretary of State meet me so we can find a way to help my constituent get his business off the ground?
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul Burstow)
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight how well-intended regulation can sometimes be a way of blocking effective growth and the opportunities available for new people to set up businesses in the care sector. I would be very happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss that matter.
Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab)
Stockport is one of only five PCTs in the country that does not provide any in vitro fertilisation treatment—in spite of recommendations from the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence. Does the Secretary of State think it fair that my constituents, who pay the same taxes as everybody else, do not get the same access to this treatment as people living elsewhere?
Mr Lansley
The hon. Lady will know, I hope, that the deputy chief executive wrote to primary care trusts a few weeks ago further to remind them of the need to respond to NICE clinical guidelines. It was the hon. Lady’s Secretary of State, John Reid who, when NICE published its guidelines, told PCTs in 2004 that they should not follow them.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
The news that the Woodhaven hospital in my constituency is threatened with closure only eight years after it was opened as a state-of-the-art mental health facility is causing great concern. Will my right hon. Friend endeavour to look into what is proposed for the closure of acute in-patient beds because the “hospital at home” alternative is simply not good enough?
Paul Burstow
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s question and I would certainly be happy to look further into the matter and write to him accordingly.
Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)
When the Minister responsible for care services wrote to me about the closure of the Edale unit in Manchester, why did he not address the issue that the closure would cost more money than it saved or the fact that the police had expressed concerns about their access in emergency times, particularly during the weekend?
Paul Burstow
I am sorry if the hon. Gentleman feels that all the issues have not been dealt with following our telephone conversation and subsequent correspondence. I will check the correspondence again, and if I find that something is missing, I will certainly provide an answer.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
I welcome the policy review of the entitlement of foreign nationals to free NHS care, but will my right hon. Friend assure the House that it will examine the options relating to charges for GP as well as hospital services?
Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)
PCTs in Staffordshire are pre-empting legislation by merging and reorganising now, which has led to plans to close the high street practice in Newcastle-under-Lyme simply because it is run by salaried GPs. Is that really NHS policy? If not, what will the Secretary of State do to help 5,000 patients rescue a much-needed surgery?
Mr Lansley
Nothing that is being done pre-empts legislation. What is being done in relation to primary care trust clusters is being done under existing legislation, and was necessary not least to enable us to achieve a reduction of £329 million in management costs in the first year following the election. In contrast, there was a £350 million increase in the year before the election under the hon. Gentleman’s right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham).
I do not know the circumstances of the centre to which the hon. Gentleman referred because the decision will have been made locally and will not have involved me, but I will gladly write to him about it.
John Pugh (Southport) (LD)
The full roll-out of 111 services is now proceeding. Is the Secretary of State satisfied that imploding PCTs can get the procurement right in the time allowed?
Mr Lansley
I am confident that we will make the progress that we seek. If we are not ready in any location, we will not be able to proceed with that procurement, but the PCTs will act on the basis of an evaluation of four pilots. To that extent, the character of what they are procuring through the 111 system will be well defined through piloting.
Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab)
What progress has been made since the launch of the Secretary of State’s tobacco control plan last March in changing the behaviour of people who smoke in cars in the presence of children?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anne Milton)
The right hon. Gentleman has a long-standing interest in this subject. We are working on a number of areas, but I think that the extension of public health duties to local authorities will open up many opportunities to persuade parents to think carefully about where they smoke, whether it is in cars or in their own homes.
Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con)
There is real concern throughout the country about the health inequalities left by the last Government. Will the Minister confirm that funding for areas with relatively large health inequalities will not be raided, as it has been in the past under Labour?
Anne Milton
As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said earlier, the Health and Social Care Bill proposes the introduction of the first ever legal duty for the Secretary of State to have regard to the reduction of health inequalities. That covers both NHS and public health functions. We are also addressing the health needs of some of the most vulnerable people through the “Inclusion Health” programme.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and the officers of 12 all-party groups associated with care have urged the Government to commit themselves to the urgent reform recommended by Dilnot. Will the Minister update the House on the Government’s response to the Dilnot recommendations, and tell us when the cross-party talks will begin?
Paul Burstow
I know that the hon. Lady follows these issues closely. In September we published a plan for consultation on the proposals, which includes looking beyond the Dilnot commission’s recommendations at issues of quality, regulation, and many other aspects of how we can secure a comprehensive reform of social care. Today my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State wrote to Opposition Front Benchers with the aim of resuming the discussions across parties to ensure that we get the conversation going with the new Opposition Front-Bench team as soon as possible.
Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)
In a recent ministerial response, I was informed that public health services were a matter for the local NHS and that it would not be appropriate for Ministers to become involved or intervene. The transfer of staff from PCTs to local authorities excludes staff delivering services relating to weight management, smoking cessation, physical activity promotion, sexual health, community development and diabetes awareness-raising. How on earth can local authorities pick up the responsibilities without being given the staff who would enable them to do it?
Anne Milton
The transition period is critical, and there is no suggestion that local authorities will not have all the tools in the box to enable them not only reduce to health inequalities, but to improve the public’s health. As we have stated many times, it is absolutely dreadful that under the last Government health inequalities increased rather than decreased.
Mr Speaker
Order. As usual, demand has exceeded supply, and we must now move on.
Recognition of Palestine as an Independent State
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
I wish to present to the House the following petition, which was signed by Terry Gallogly of Lowther court in York and supported by a further 79 people who live in the city I represent.
The petition states:
The Petition of York Palestine Solidarity Campaign and the people of York,
Declares that the Petitioners note that since 1993 the Palestinian Authority has been involved in fruitless negotiations that have still not resulted in freedom; that the number of Israeli settlers living illegally on Palestinian territory has more than doubled, large areas of land have been stolen, over 600 checkpoints prevent freedom of movement to schools and hospitals, and a wall, declared illegal by an international court 7 years ago, continues to be built; and that this September, with no end to the Occupation in sight, and with the support of many countries, the Palestinian Authority will apply to the United Nations for recognition of Palestine as an independent state.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to formally recognise the right of the Palestinian people for self-determination and the right of Palestinian refugees to be able to return in freedom to their homes, and calls on the Government to work urgently for just solution in the region.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P000964]
Proposed Cuts to BBC Radio Merseyside
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
I rise to present a petition from radio listeners throughout Merseyside. The petition was collected online and on the streets of Liverpool. I am sure that many more people would have liked to have signed it, but time is of the essence, which is why I am submitting it today. Nevertheless, there are in the region of 2,000 signatories to the petition, along with many testimonials.
The petition states:
The Petition of listeners to BBC Radio Merseyside,
Declares that the Petitioners oppose the 20% cut to BBC Radio Merseyside’s budget proposed by the BBC management; that the Petitioners note that BBC Radio Merseyside is the most listened to of the BBC’s 39 local radio stations outside of London with over 300,000 listeners who tune in for an average of 16.2 hours per week to popular programmes such as the Roger Phillips Show and the Billy Butler Show; further note that there are more staff at Radio 4 who work on the You and Yours programme than the whole of the current team of BBC Radio Merseyside; and that the Petitioners believe any efficiency savings should be fairly distributed, protecting local services and jobs where possible, in order to guarantee quality of programming which remains locally relevant and to preserve a service that is depended on by millions of listeners up and down the country, rather than maintaining the budgets of bigger channels and national radio stations.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to encourage the BBC to reconsider its cuts to BBC local radio.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P000965]
Afghanistan
(13 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to make a statement on Afghanistan.
Let me begin by paying tribute to Rifleman Vijay Rai of the 2nd Battalion The Royal Gurkha Rifles, who died in Afghanistan on Saturday. His commanding officer described him as tough, loyal, utterly professional and immensely proud to have been serving in the British Army. I am sure I speak for the whole House in saying that our thoughts are with his family at this difficult time.
The House will appreciate that I have not yet had an opportunity to visit our troops in Afghanistan. I intend to do so as soon as is practical. The purpose of this statement is to provide information on progress in Afghanistan since the Prime Minister’s statement to the House on 6 July. Our mission is to ensure that Afghanistan does not again become a safe haven for international terrorism, and the presence of our armed forces in Afghanistan to achieve this aim is supported on all sides of the House.
This mission has a cost: 383 members of our armed forces have lost their lives since operations began—eight since the Prime Minister’s statement of 6 July. I know the whole House will want to join me in paying tribute both to their sacrifice and to all those who have returned with serious injuries, and to the families who support them. I would also like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the troops from Estonia, Denmark and Tonga who are operating under British command in central Helmand. Since 6 July, two Danish soldiers and one Estonian soldier have also lost their lives, and I am sure the House will want to join me in expressing condolences to their families.
I am clear that this is an operation to protect our national security and national interests. That view is shared by the 49-nation, UN-mandated coalition. We share a common purpose: to enhance security and build the capacity of the Afghan national security forces and the Afghan Government, so that Afghans themselves can be responsible for their own territory, their own security and their own affairs. We ensure our national security and the security of the NATO alliance by helping the Afghans to take control of theirs.
Our strategy is comprehensive, drawing security, governance and development objectives together. In 10 years, with international support and assistance, Afghanistan has come a long way. Governance and the rule of law are improving across the country. The Afghan Government are providing increasing levels of basic services, with Afghans enjoying much greater access to health facilities, and more education opportunities—including for girls—than in 2001. We welcome the Afghan Parliament’s decision on Saturday to approve the supplementary budget to recapitalise the central bank, paving the way towards agreement on a new International Monetary Fund programme of support in the coming weeks. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development has been actively engaged with the Afghan Ministry of Finance and the IMF in support of this objective. Agreeing the new programme will reinvigorate the Kabul process, allowing donors to align themselves behind Afghan Government priorities and systems as we move through transition and beyond.
Let us not understate the tangible improvements that have taken place, but let us also not underestimate the scale of the remaining challenge. We are working from a very low base. If progress is to be sustained, the commitment of the international community, including the UK, will have to endure for many years to come, long after international troops have withdrawn from combat operations.
On the security front, progress has been real and meaningful, but it has been hard won and is not irreversible. In many areas, Afghanistan remains a dangerous place. Levels of violence vary dramatically from region to region, but the insurgency continues to be a nationwide threat. The insurgency is under considerable pressure, but its leaders remain committed to conducting a violent campaign. Over recent months we have seen them increasingly focus on high-profile attacks, such as that on the British Council in August and on the US embassy and the international security assistance force headquarters in September. The murder of former President Rabbani is a particular setback. It is important that his death does not derail efforts to engage with those willing to renounce violence and work towards peace. We will continue to support President Karzai’s efforts to promote peace and reconciliation, and are encouraging engagement to support this from all those in the region, including Pakistan.
Despite that difficult background, there is also cause for optimism. In the UK area of operations in central Helmand, there is clear evidence that the ISAF troop surge has brought security gains, limiting the insurgents’ ability to prosecute their campaign. UK troops, partnered with Afghan security forces, are having a tangible impact on insurgent activity in our area of operations. On 9 October, 20 Armoured Brigade assumed authority for Task Force Helmand from 3 Commando Brigade, who can be proud of the progress made during their tour.
The central achievement this summer has been the commencement of the formal security transition process. July saw the first group of three provinces and four urban areas across Afghanistan, covering almost a quarter of the population, begin that process. This included Lashkar Gah, the capital of Helmand province, where the Afghan national police now lead on security in this bustling community of 120,000 people. ISAF remains ready to provide support if needed, but the ANSF have been able to respond effectively to insurgent attacks and to pre-empt many. That has been a source of considerable pride, both to the Afghan security forces and to the civilian population. Here in the UK, we should remember that the ANSF have suffered very considerable losses themselves.
The process of transition is on track and will continue. The Afghan Government, with ISAF support, are continuing the preparatory work needed to begin the transition process in the next set of provinces and districts. October also saw Task Force Helmand resume responsibility for the upper Gereshk valley. That follows the temporary deployment of US marine corps to the area, during which time UK forces provided security on the strategically significant Highway 1, outside the UK area of operations. UK forces will now work with the ANSF to prepare the district to enter the transition process in the future. We look forward to the second tranche of transition and an announcement later in the autumn by President Karzai outlining which areas are to be included.
Strong Afghan national security forces are key to achieving our objectives. The ANA now stands at 169,000 men and the ANP stands at 134,000, and both are on track to meet their target levels by October 2012. But progress cannot be measured in quantity alone—it must be measured in quality too—in respect of the effectiveness of the Afghan forces and the strength of their organisation. The Afghan-led response to the attacks on the US embassy and ISAF headquarters saw the ANSF successfully complete an exceptionally difficult night-time building clearance and, for the first time, Afghan air force helicopters were deployed in direct support of troops on the ground. Operational effectiveness rates are improving, allowing the ANSF to take the lead in many operations. Literacy rates among the ANSF are also improving. All 12 of the Afghan army’s planned specialist branches are now functioning, which will, in time, improve self-sufficiency and professionalism. Measures to improve retention rates in the ANSF have also been introduced. Such measures include a pension scheme and a work cycle consisting of periods of operations, training and leave. So the ANSF are improving but, as the recent report by UNAMA, the United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan, shows, there remain important areas where further improvement is crucial.
President Karzai has stated his commitment to his Government assuming lead security responsibility across the country as a whole by the end of 2014, which is a goal that we share and support. That means that British troops will not be in a combat role by 2015, nor will they be deployed in the numbers they are now. The ANSF will, however, still need support from the international community even after the conclusion of the transition process. We will continue to support their development: for instance, through our lead involvement in a new officers academy announced by the Prime Minister in the summer.
On 5 December, the Afghan Government will chair an international conference in Bonn. This is a key opportunity to advance the political track. The Istanbul conference in November and the Chicago summit next May are further opportunities for the international community to reiterate its long-term commitment to Afghanistan. That commitment is crucial if we are to deliver on our key objective of ensuring that Afghanistan does not again become a safe haven for international terrorism. Our armed forces will continue to protect our national interests with the selfless devotion to duty we have come to expect. I am sure that we in this House will reciprocate by maintaining the staunch cross-party support that has underpinned the operation from the outset, and I commend the statement to the House.
Mr Jim Murphy (East Renfrewshire) (Lab)
I echo the tribute paid to Rifleman Vijay Rai of 2nd Battalion The Royal Gurkha Rifles, who died in action on Saturday. On all such occasions it is right that we should recognise the sacrifice and dedication of our service personnel here at home and overseas. They fight for others’ security and peace in order to protect our own. They carry our pride and our patriotism and they, and their families, must be the constant in our minds. It is also right that we should pay tribute to our allies, many of them nations that have also been scarred by terrorism.
I welcome the new Secretary of State and thank him in advance for his statement. I want to put on record my personal view that, whatever other disagreements I had with the right hon. Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), I never doubted his passion about doing the right thing in Afghanistan, his personal commitment to supporting our forces, and the skill that he showed in trying to build consensus on the operations in Libya. As I made clear to him, when the Government do the right thing we will strongly support them, while carefully scrutinising their decisions. Will the Secretary of State take this early opportunity to reiterate his predecessor’s welcome commitment that nothing in the strategic defence and security review will adversely impact on the Afghan front line, and will he say whether anyone currently serving in Afghanistan is in line for compulsory redundancy?
Media attention has understandably been on Libya in recent months, but it has been another difficult summer in Afghanistan. Despite the painful losses, British casualties have mercifully been significantly lower than in the last two years, and casualties among all international forces lower than last year. There are, however, worrying security trends, with high-profile terrorist attacks including that against the British Council, which reminded us again of the danger in which many of our people, including civilians, put themselves for the sake of stability in Afghanistan and security at home. There have also been increased targeted assassinations across the country, and signs of insurgency spreading to previously calmer areas, and mixed messages on the political track. Despite that, our forces are doing brilliant work in central Helmand, jointly with the Afghan army and police force. This remains an intense and challenging campaign and one that is in our national interest. I hope the new Secretary of State will consistently make the case for why our forces are engaged in Afghanistan.
Let me turn now to my specific questions. We continue to support the intention to end the British combat role in Afghanistan by 2014. Will the Secretary of State share his assessment of the security situation and how it has changed in the districts and provinces involved in the first phase of transition? Will he assure the House that detailed plans for troop withdrawal will always be based on military advice and conditions on the ground?
On security, last week I spent time at NATO HQ and met the Secretary-General of NATO, who was full of praise for our forces. We discussed the security situation in Afghanistan. Will the Secretary of State comment on reports that Pakistani militants are exploiting a security vacuum left by the departure of US troops from parts of eastern Afghanistan, notably Kunar and Nuristan?
This is an issue for the whole of NATO, so how does the Secretary of State think we can persuade other nations with forces in Afghanistan to bear more of the burden? Pakistan is, of course, central to the future of Afghanistan and the wider region, so could he reflect on the worrying assessment by Admiral Mike Mullen that Pakistani intelligence is currently supporting extremists in Afghanistan? The campaign of targeted assassinations has also suggested a pattern of infiltration by the Taliban into Afghan forces. Could he say what changes are being made to Afghan national army and Afghan national police recruitment procedures and effective background checks to protect against this in future?
On the political process, we all know that for progress to be made in Afghanistan, there must be inclusive politics inside and beyond the country’s borders. Within its borders, could the Secretary of State reinforce the importance of protecting the gains made in development in Afghanistan in reducing child mortality and improving education? There are more than 7 million students in schools across the country, one third of whom are now girls. Beyond Afghanistan’s borders, India has recently signed a strategic partnership with Afghanistan. What does he see its significance as being, and what does he read into Pakistan’s response? The forthcoming Bonn conference, as he suggested, can be a real moment of strategic progress. Will he share his assessment of the credible likely outcomes coming from the Bonn conference?
In conclusion, we need Afghan security forces that are strong enough to defend and sustain the political and economic progress, and a constitution that reflects a changed Afghanistan, but to do so we need genuine and deeper achievements on economic development, political reconciliation, and better involvement with neighbours. Britain fought three wars in 80 years in Afghanistan; this is our fourth, and we have no intention of there being a fifth. That is why it is essential that real progress be made at the forthcoming Bonn conference.
Mr Hammond
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his welcome, and indeed for his continuing endorsement of the cross-party approach to this issue. He asked about the impact of the SDSR on the Afghan front line and I can tell him that in the very short time that I have had at the MOD, one of the first things I have done is to ask for an assessment of the equipment and personal protection available to our troops in Afghanistan. I am satisfied that they have the best level of protection they have had since this campaign began and appropriate equipment to carry out the task that they are being asked to carry out, and I will ensure that that remains my No. 1 priority. He asked about compulsory redundancies. No troops serving in Afghanistan will be subject to compulsory procedures either while they are serving in Afghanistan or during their recovery period upon return.
The right hon. Gentleman talked about the importance of the political track, and I absolutely agree with him. If Afghanistan is to have a stable and sustainable future, there has to be an inclusive solution to the political challenges that the country faces. I recognise that there are huge issues in achieving that but it must remain our focus. He was also right to draw attention to the success of our forces. A military solution alone will not be sufficient, but without a climate of security we will not be able to achieve the nation-building and reconciliation process that is so important for the future. I confirm that I will consistently make the case for the presence of our troops in Afghanistan.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about the current security situation. In the districts and provinces that have transitioned, the experience is good and the Afghan national security forces are showing good capability. Indeed, ISAF in Lashkar Gah has had to intervene only once since the transition took place.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about Pakistani militants, and I think he was referring to Haqqani network activity in the more easterly provinces to the east of where Task Force Helmand is operational. There has certainly been an increase in activity and the pattern clearly is that there has been a reduction in military activity in Regional Command South West but a corresponding increase in some other areas, including the area subject to Haqqani network influence.
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to talk about the centrality—the crucial involvement—of Pakistan in the long-term solution to the problem. We should never forget that Pakistan has borne a burden as great as that of any other country in the fight against terrorism, taking more civilian casualties than any other nation. We will continue to work with the Pakistanis to ensure that they engage in the interests of Afghan security, and indeed of their own long-term security, by ensuring that the insurgency is defeated.
The right hon. Gentleman asked me about the infiltration of the ANSF through recruits. I absolutely accept that this is a critical issue. I have been assured that progress is being made, but I do not have the details that I can give to him across the Dispatch Box. I am very happy to write to him later today.
Finally, the right hon. Gentleman asked about protecting development gains. We are clear that a long-term lasting solution must involve the securing of those development gains and building on them—enhancing them. Afghanistan has to become a viable nation capable of offering its citizens basic services that they require, and capable, in a sense, of competing in its offer with what Taliban and other insurgents have been offering at local level. We have to build on those processes. We have to secure the gains that have been made, and I hope that at the Bonn conference the international community will take the opportunity to send a very clear signal of its long-term commitment to this process, beyond the draw-down of forces at the end of 2014.
Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con)
I welcome my right hon. Friend to his vitally important post and wish him every success in it, but may I commiserate with him, as I have with his six predecessors, on bearing responsibility for what, despite the tremendous bravery of our troops, I have always predicted since 2002, future historians will regard as a fiasco as great as the first two Anglo-Afghan wars? The wisest thing the Secretary of State for Defence can now do is to bring our troops home as soon as possible.
Mr Hammond
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his views. I am sure other Members of the House are familiar with them. That is not the view that the Government take. The Government take the view that we are embarked on a process. The Afghanisation of security is progressing. We have set out a timetable for the draw-down of forces, and we will continue to engage actively with the processes of nation-building, reconciliation and Afghanisation of security over that timetable.
Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab)
I welcome the Secretary of State to his position. Is he yet able to say anything to the House about the Government’s policy on the need for co-ordination across the whole of ISAF of the draw-down of troops between now and 2014 towards the end of the combat mission? I am concerned. We are already backfilling in the upper Gereshk valley and we are operating out of area, as he said, on Highway 1. If we take that too far, we will damage the troop density that has given our troops the ability to make the operational progress that they have made. The Secretary of State needs to watch this. Our troops are enthusiastic to help. They see a job that needs to be done and they want to go and do it. If he allows that to go too far, it will damage their ability to operate.
Mr Hammond
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman and thank him for his welcome. Some points of information: the operation on Highway 1 has concluded, so we are no longer operating out of area on Highway 1. We are not backfilling in the upper Gereshk valley. The upper Gereshk valley is part of the UK area of operations. The US marine corps moved into the area in order to protect contractors carrying out a blacktopping of the strategically important Highway 611. That is now complete, and we have retaken control of it.
On the crucial issue of draw-down, the right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. We cannot talk about the profile of UK draw-down to the end of 2014 and beyond in isolation. We have to look at what the United States is doing, and we will obviously have careful regard to the announcements of US intentions and take the advice of the military in responding to those.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
May I, too, offer my congratulations to my right hon. Friend? Is he aware of some suggestions that there has been an adverse impact on the availability of certain equipment in Afghanistan because of deployments over Libya? That may have been necessary and even acceptable in the short term, but may we take it that at the earliest date any such equipment—I particularly have in mind Apache helicopters—will be made available for deployment in Afghanistan?
Mr Hammond
I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend, who will know that the news from Libya appears to be progressing, and that progress is being made towards liberation. I hope that we will very quickly be at the point where equipment tied up in the Libya campaign can be released.
Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)
I welcome the Secretary of State to his position, thank him for advance sight of his statement, and join in his message of condolence. Earlier today a survey of Afghan opinion was published by the Konrad Adenauer Foundation, and it found that 56% of Afghans now see the foreign troop contingent as an occupying force, and only 39% see ISAF as a guarantee of security—down from the 45% who did so only last year. Does the Secretary of State have any reason to disbelieve those pessimistic findings?
Mr Hammond
The important thing is that the ANSF are growing in size and capability, so, with 25% of the population already living in areas that have been transitioned and another tranche of transition to be announced later this autumn, Afghan civilians will increasingly find that their day-to-day security contacts are with the Afghan national security forces. As we move towards 2014, allowing foreign forces to be seen as formations that can be withdrawn without compromising the security that Afghan civilians enjoy is a positive step, so I should like to see something positive in the figures that the hon. Gentleman cites.
Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con)
I, too, welcome my right hon. Friend to his position. He has a hard act to follow, but I am sure that he will do a very fine job—and if he does not, the Defence Committee will hold him to account. Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of our key strategic aims in Afghanistan must be to bolster the stability of Pakistan? How does he think that we can manage the draw-down of our combat troops so as to bolster that stability, rather than undermine it?
Mr Hammond
I thank my right hon. Friend, and absolutely agree with his analysis that the greatest strategic challenge is security in the wider region, including security in the vulnerable cross-border area. If he does not mind, with only 48 hours under my belt, I will not give the House a lecture on how that is to be delivered, but I will confirm that I recognise it as a very important priority.
Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)
I, too, welcome the Secretary of State to the formidable challenges that lie ahead of him. Can he assure the House that if the security situation in Afghanistan were to deteriorate after 2014, there would be sufficient flexibility to deploy British military assets in support of the Afghan security services?
Mr Hammond
The Prime Minister has made it very clear that we will have withdrawn from a combat role by the end of 2014, and that the number of UK troops remaining after that point will be very considerably fewer than are there now. The detail of the role of those few remaining troops has yet to be determined.
Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)
May I welcome the Secretary of State to his office? He rightly says that our mission is to ensure that Afghanistan does not again become a safe haven for international terrorism. When he does get out to Afghanistan, will he reflect on the possibility that, with the death of Osama bin Laden and other leading terrorists, that mission might already have been achieved? If he reaches that conclusion, will he agree that it gives him some flexibility over the rate of the draw-down?
Mr Hammond
I am sorry to say to my hon. Friend that I think that that is a slightly optimistic assessment. I do not need to get to Afghanistan to make that assessment. We know from history that areas that are subject to divided—weak—Government and poor security are likely to become safe havens for international terrorism. It is very much in our own national interests that we support the Afghan national Government to be a strong, unifying and inclusive force and secure the development gains that have been made, as well as the Afghanisation of the security process. That will be the Government’s agenda.
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
2014 also happens to be the end of the second term of President Karzai, who has led us to believe that he will not seek reappointment—which would also be unconstitutional. That means that at the very time when we are withdrawing troops, we require political stability. Can the Secretary of State give us some indication of his thinking on how that political stability in Afghanistan can be provided?
Mr Hammond
The draw-down of troops will take place between 2012 and 2014, and the profile of that draw-down has not yet been decided or confirmed. At the same time, the Afghan national security forces will be taking an ever greater role in maintaining security in the country. I would like to think that by that stage the political process will be able to go on in a constitutional fashion, while the Afghan national security forces protect the security of the country and the population and create the stable baseline that will allow for that political process.
Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
I thank the shadow Secretary of State for his kind and sincere words about my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox). I also express my faith in my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State; I am sure that he will fulfil our expectations that he will do a good job in his new role. Is he concerned that President Karzai has, once again, ruled out any dialogue with the Taliban when it is quite obvious that any stable political settlement in Kabul is essential if security is to be maintained as we withdraw from Afghanistan?
Mr Hammond
It is clear that politicians in Kabul will have to respond to the assault on the peace process that the assassination of former President Rabbani represents. However, it is also clear that in the long run there is no alternative to an inclusive peace process that will bring all elements of the Afghan population into a durable and sustainable settlement.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
One thing that we are all united on is the sheer bravery of the British troops in Afghanistan; there is no division on that. Is it not important, however, for the new Defence Minister to realise that there is not unanimous support for a 10-year-old war that many of us consider to be absolutely unwinnable, and that it is certainly the strong feeling in the country—there is no doubt about it—that the sooner that British troops come home, the better it will be?
Mr Hammond
If I have got it wrong I will correct myself, but I am pretty sure that I said “cross-party” support, and resisted the temptation to say that there was support in all parts of the House.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
Public recognition of service and sacrifice in Afghanistan is terribly important. The good people of Royal Wootton Bassett were delighted to welcome the new Secretary of State and the Prime Minister there on Sunday. Will my right hon. Friend similarly try to find time in his diary to be at the north door of Westminster Hall on 31 October at 3.30 in the afternoon to welcome in 3 Commando Brigade as they return from Afghanistan?
Mr Hammond
That was in the diary of my predecessor, and it remains in my own diary.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
Instead of detonating improvised explosive devices safely at a distance, we still instruct our soldiers to dismantle them by hand in order to identify—to find the fingerprints of—the bomb makers, and then imprison them. After the escape of 500 Taliban prisoners from Kandahar, including many bombers, is it reasonable to ask our troops to continue to dismantle those bombs in such a dangerous way when we cannot keep the prisoners safely behind bars?
Mr Hammond
There are two parts to the hon. Gentleman’s question. First, we clearly have to work with the Afghans to improve detention arrangements in Afghanistan in terms of ensuring that human rights issues are properly respected and that prisons are secure. On the first part of his question regarding the technical process used for dealing with IEDs, I am afraid that I have not got to that part of my briefing pack yet, but now that he has drawn my attention to it I will ask the relevant questions this afternoon, and will be happy to write to him.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
It is highly probable that when our troops withdraw in 2014, the insurgency will still be active. Among its top targets will be any civilians whom we leave behind to engage in nation building, and any Afghan interpreters who have helped our forces. When he has the time and opportunity, will the Secretary of State give serious thought to how those two groups are to be protected?
Mr Hammond
My hon. Friend is, of course, right. The plan for post-2014 has to include a credible way of protecting UK civilians involved in reconstruction and development, and a solution for those who have served the British forces and who might be at risk as a result.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
I hope that the Secretary of State will find time in the near future to read the Defence Committee’s report, “Operations in Afghanistan”. Will he say more about what assessment the Government have made of the role of women in the future of Afghanistan?
Mr Hammond
The Select Committee’s report is in my box and I was hoping to have read it before today, but alas! I will certainly put it high on my reading list. It is clear that a sustainable future for Afghanistan has to include all parts of the population. We have to build on the enormous gains that have been made, particularly in the education of girls. That is already beginning to flow through into changing the nature of Afghan society. We must build on those gains, and we are clear that they are part of the sustainable future that we crave.
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
May I join other colleagues in welcoming my right hon. Friend to his post? May I press him on the implications of the Indian-Afghan strategic partnership? He rightly talks about the need for an inclusive political process internally. Externally from Afghanistan, that must include China, Pakistan, Iran and Turkey, as well as India.
Mr Hammond
I completely agree with my hon. Friend. It is important that all Afghanistan’s neighbours are engaged in the process and that none of them should feel threatened by it.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
To follow on from the excellent question asked by the Chairman of the Select Committee on Defence, if the Government are to meet their deadline of coming out by 2014—in other words, if we assume that the insurgency will be well under control and that the Afghan national army and police can deal with it—it will be crucial for the Pakistani security services to be in a much better position in terms of the co-operation that they give than they are now. I know that the Secretary of State has been in the job only a short time and that he may want to write to me, but can he give an assessment of whether the situation of the Pakistani security services helping the Taliban and other extremists has got better or worse in the past six months?
Mr Hammond
The hon. Gentleman will, I hope, forgive me if I say that from what I have seen so far, this is an incredibly complex and sensitive area. I would rather study it a little further before writing to him, if he does not mind.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
I welcome the Secretary of State to his position. He inherits a well-intentioned campaign, but if we are honest, there has been a drift in mission and a lack of clarity and conviction from the international community. If we are honest, there is not the required sense of governance at a regional or a national level, which means that a lot of the good work that we are doing in Helmand may well be reversible. I ask him to examine the provinces of Kunar and Nuristan, which were handed over to the Afghan forces but are, sadly, now in the hands of the Taliban.
Mr Hammond
I will certainly look at those provinces and draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary to what my hon. Friend has said. Of course, my focus will be on the area of central Helmand, for which the British forces have direct responsibility.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
On behalf of my right hon. and hon. Friends, I welcome the Secretary of State to his new position and pay tribute to the professionalism of his colleague who served before him. Will the Secretary of State assure me, and the House, that soldiers who have returned home from Afghanistan with serious physical and mental injuries will continue to receive the best possible medical attention for as long as they need it?
Mr Hammond
The Government have put a huge investment of time, management effort and money into that exercise, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that those who need medical help as a result of injuries that they received while fighting on behalf of their country will receive it.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
The battalion that I commanded, 1st Mercians, will shortly return to Afghanistan, within two years. When it was there last it lost 12 men and more than 100 were wounded. May I ask the Secretary of State to write to me, when he can, to explain how battle casualty replacements will work in the future? Commanding officers find it very difficult if they lose 100 men out of 500, and it will be especially difficult as we will be withdrawing and drawing down in the next couple of years.
Mr Hammond
I am happy to write to my hon. Friend, who of course has direct experience of handling such issues. The good news, of course, is that casualty figures are substantially down. UK forces are taking far fewer casualties than they were at the time to which he refers. However, I will write to him.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
The right hon. Gentleman is the seventh Secretary of State since the conflict started, and we all wish him well. The statements, though, have not changed, even if Secretaries of State have come and gone. We hear about cautious optimism, determinism, determination and some interesting development statistics, then the next Secretary of State comes along and repeats the same statements. May I urge him to be the first one to grab hold of strategy and tactics from our 250-odd generals and ensure that whatever presence we maintain in Afghanistan, there are no more funeral cavalcades through Royal Wootton Bassett? Our men should stop being Taliban target practice.
Mr Hammond
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question. He may detect a similarity in the statements, and I may detect a similarity in his questions. I can tell him that there has been very significant military progress in the taskforce Helmand area. Violent incidents and casualties are down dramatically this summer fighting season compared with last.
Mr Hammond
The right hon. Gentleman may shake his head, but the fact is that the number of enemy-initiated violent incidents this summer fighting season is 40% down on the number last summer fighting season. In parallel with that, governance is improving. Governor Mangal, in Helmand province, is behind an effective programme of poppy eradication that has reduced the poppy crop year on year. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman says something unrepeatable, but I say to him that tackling the root causes of the problem at the level of the Afghan economy, basic public services and security is the way to create a stable situation in the future, and we will persist with it.
Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his assumption of his extremely challenging post. Despite the title of the statement, the questions asked today have revealed that the problem lies as much in Pakistan as in Afghanistan. Will the Secretary of State tell the House when he is likely to engage in talks with his Pakistani counterpart?
Mr Hammond
Of course the Foreign Secretary leads on our relationships with Pakistan, but I am absolutely ready and willing to engage with my military counterparts in Pakistan if he wishes me to do so.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
The Secretary of State has emphasised military transition, political inclusion and stabilisation. Is he sensitive to the concerns in Afghan civil society that the imperatives for the international community, and the interests of Afghan political powers in the context of those imperatives, may not extend to sustaining the advances that there have been in the status of women? As well as insisting that Afghanistan must never again be a safe haven for terrorists, will he outline the Government’s determination that it will never again be a theme park for atavistic prejudice against women?
Mr Hammond
I think that some of the gains already made, such as the education of girls, will be irreversible changes in Afghan society. We have made it very clear that we want to ensure that those gains are consolidated. However, it is not for us to dictate to the Afghan people their agenda for the future. It is for us to ensure that there is a climate of security and stability in which they can exercise their constitutional right to determine the future of their country in a way that does not threaten the security of ours.
Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con)
With all due respect to the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane), may I urge my right hon. Friend to stick to the strategy, and leave the tactics to the soldiers on the ground? Much work has been done in increasing the capacity of the Afghan national Government, but given the need for economic development, which has been highlighted, much more work needs to be done in provincial government, where capacity remains poor, if we are to leave Afghanistan in a stable state in the long term. Will the Secretary of State say a few words on how we will address that problem?
Mr Hammond
I am sure that the soldiers would thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, and I will consider it carefully. The Government are very much aware of the need to reinforce governance at local and provincial level. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development is focused on ensuring that the UK and the broader international package deals at all levels. I would say to my hon. Friend that the initiative to recruit Afghan local police, which is already bearing fruit in a number of provinces, will continue to help to stabilise the situation at local level.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Secretary of State for his statement, and wish him well in his new post. A large percentage of the soldiers who have been killed or injured in Afghanistan have been killed or injured as a result of improvised explosive devices. Some progress has been made on the equipment that the soldiers are issued with, but the US army, along with private companies, has developed modern technology to combat the threat of IEDs. Will the Secretary of State confirm that that technology advancement in the US will be exchanged with, and made known to, the UK and allied armies, so that the horror of IEDs can be reduced?
Mr Hammond
We have made considerable progress in providing better equipment to reduce the risk of IEDs to the forces. However, developments are ongoing, particularly in relation to vehicles, and we will keep on top of them.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
The last quarterly statement discussed the challenging supply route from Karachi. Can my right hon. Friend update the House on that route, and on measures to improve the supply of Helmand province from the north?
Mr Hammond
My understanding is that the US is exploring other possible routes of supply into Regional Command South West. However, for the moment the UK remains dependent on the supply route through Pakistan. As my hon. Friend says, that is a difficult, vulnerable and expensive route. The route is fragile, but it remains a vital lifeline to our operation in Helmand.
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)
I welcome my right hon. Friend’s observations on the importance to nation building of the progress of women and girls. Two weeks ago I met Fawzia Koofi, an MP and presidential candidate in Afghanistan, who expressed great concern about the role of women in the upcoming Bonn conference. What can his Department do to ensure, or at least to encourage, the participation of women in that conference?
Mr Hammond
I am not aware of the exact composition of the Afghan delegation to that conference, but I shall certainly take up the issue and discuss it with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development to see whether he needs to intervene to ensure that the interests of women are effectively represented.
Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con)
May I welcome the Secretary of State to his extremely important position and wish him well? May I also welcome his reassurance in response to the Opposition spokesman’s question on equipment? Will he reassure the House that, unlike the previous Government, this Government will never deploy troops with inadequate equipment?
Mr Hammond
I have been saying for many years, long before I came anywhere near having a responsibility at the Dispatch Box for this issue, that it is not moral to ask troops to go into mortal danger without the best equipment that we can provide them for personal protection, and that remains my view.
Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con)
May I congratulate my right hon. Friend both on his appointment and on the remarkable speed with which he is mastering the brief? He mentioned the importance of developing the local police force. One of the key factors for success in Helmand province and elsewhere in southern Afghanistan will be recruiting southern Pashtuns into the Afghan national army, so that it is no longer seen as an army of northern foreigners.
Mr Hammond
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. At the moment the ethnic balance in the ANA does not reflect the ethnic mix of the population, as it is heavily Tajik dominated. In the longer run, it will be necessary to achieve a better representation of the ethnic mix of Afghanistan in the forces, but that process will take time and inevitably will be a consequence of the reconciliation and reintegration process that will take place over the coming years.
Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)
I have spoken in the Chamber before about gaps in the air bridge that can mean that up to three days can be taken off the two-week rest and relaxation period that is obviously incredibly valuable to our personnel. Will my right hon. Friend look at this issue again as we approach transition, and see whether the period can start from when troops arrive back in the UK, rather than when they leave their front-line bases?
Mr Hammond
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and I will certainly look at the issue. My hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces thinks that we have already done that, but I will check and write to her.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
I welcome my right hon. Friend to the role of Secretary of State. It has been an absolute pleasure to work as part of his team in the Department for Transport, and I am sure that he will make an excellent Secretary of State for Defence. Will he update the House on his plans for an Afghan national army officer training centre?
Mr Hammond
The Prime Minister announced in the summer that the UK would lead the establishment of an Afghan national army officer training centre just outside Kabul. We will provide about 75% of the staff required for the academy and we are in discussion with other nations about supplying the other 25%. The centre will be one of the UK’s lasting legacies for the effectiveness of the Afghan national forces in the future.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend. I appreciate that he has only been Defence Secretary for a few days, but what is his assessment of unmanned drones, such as Watchkeeper, in terms of combating threats such as IEDs?
Mr Hammond
Clearly the evidence of the campaign in Afghanistan is that unmanned aerial surveillance vehicles make a huge contribution to our intelligence picture, including at the level of interdiction of IEDs. Armed unmanned aerial vehicles have also played an important part in the US campaign to attack high-value targets.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
I too welcome the Secretary of State to his post, and having listened to him for some 48 minutes, I would have thought that he had been in post for four years rather than 48 hours. I have spoken to the US general responsible for training the Afghan police and army, and he put a real emphasis—as did his report—on the quality of recruits, not just the quantity. Does my right hon. Friend agree that improving the levels of literacy will be crucial if we are to leave a strong force behind?
Mr Hammond
Yes, I absolutely agree—and good progress has been made on improving rates of literacy in the ANA.
If I may, I will take this opportunity to give the answer that I could not give earlier to the Opposition spokesman. All ANA and ANP recruits are now biometrically enrolled, which will help with the anti-infiltration programme.
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)
In addition to our military activities, what role, if any, are our troops playing in supporting and providing the vital infrastructure that will be so important in helping Afghans develop their economy and create the stable environment in which to provide for their own security?
Mr Hammond
My understanding is that our development programme is executed via the use of private contractors, but where necessary, of course, we shall use UK forces to protect those contractors, as happened in the case to which I referred earlier involving the highway construction programme.
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
I welcome the new Secretary of State for Defence to his position and urge him to stay there for as long as he possibly can, because we need to break this cycle of permanently changing Secretaries of State for Defence. I thank him for agreeing to meet 3 Commando Brigade when it returns, but I ask him for two assurances: that Plymouth will remain a principal naval port in the defence of our country and that he will find time in his diary to visit the Haslar unit, which is part of 3 Commando Brigade in my constituency and which helps members of the armed forces who have been badly hurt and who sometimes have had limbs amputated?
Mr Hammond
I am happy to do my best to remain in post for as long as I can, although my hon. Friend might address his plea to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. It is the Government’s policy that Plymouth will remain one of the UK’s principal naval bases, and I am happy to arrange a visit to the Haslar unit at a convenient time.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
May I, too, add to the bouquets of congratulations under which my right hon. Friend is being buried today? In July, President Karzai of Afghanistan accepted that his Government needed to provide a more predictable environment of security to Afghan citizens. What further can the Afghan Government do with their political and military machinery—my right hon. Friend has spoken about the recruitment of more local policemen—to help build that more predictable security environment before 2014?
Mr Hammond
If my hon. Friend could avoid the term “buried”, I would be grateful to him. It is vital that we create this climate of security—I have referred to some of the initiatives under way—but it is clear to me, from everyone I have spoken to over the past 96 hours, that nobody who knows the country believes that there can be a sustainable, durable, peaceful Afghanistan unless all its people are included. That means that reactivating the reconciliation process and the political track at the earliest possible opportunity—after the disruption suffered following the Rabbani assassination—will be of critical importance to the future.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
May I warmly congratulate my right hon. Friend on his appointment? Although lots of NATO countries are involved in Afghanistan, only we, the United States and a few others are doing more than their fair share. The same seems to be true in other theatres, such as Libya and in the anti-piracy operations off the African coast. Will he do all that he can to ensure that all NATO members play their full part in the success of this organisation?
Mr Hammond
I am happy to take up the cudgels on this issue, which, as my hon. Friend will know, my predecessor regarded as hugely important. I pay tribute to the huge progress and consistent effort that he made in reminding our NATO allies of their obligations. However, my understanding, from talking to military people over the past couple of days, is that the contribution that the Estonians and Danes, for example, have been making under British command in Helmand has been recognised as first class and is very welcome.
Point of Order
Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Further to my point of order yesterday and in view of the apparent media briefing regarding the contents of the Cabinet Secretary’s report to the Prime Minister—for example, the political editor of The Daily Telegraph had an article up at 10 minutes to 1 containing information about what is in the report—will you inform the House on whether the Prime Minister has indicated that he will be making a statement to the House on the report’s contents?
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for advance notice of her point of order. I have received at this stage no such indication, but I am well aware of the intense interest in these matters in all parts of the House and of the wish that the House should have an opportunity to scrutinise them in detail. I understand that the report will be published later today, and it is clear to me that such scrutiny will be more effective when right hon. and hon. Members have had a chance to study it. It will not require telepathy to deduce that once the report has been published, an application for an urgent question—in the absence of any ministerial statement—will be the most effective way of pursuing that end. [Interruption.] I hope that that is helpful. It is always a pleasure for me to bring some happiness into the life of the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane).
Royal Assent
Mr Speaker
I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts:
Sovereign Grant Act 2011
Energy Act 2011.
Concessionary Bus Travel (Amendment)
Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)
I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Concessionary Bus Travel Act 2007 to broaden the definition of eligible journeys to allow people with complex mobility problems who cannot access public transport to use concessionary travel passes on community transport services; and for connected purposes.
I am sure that everyone in the Chamber is aware how much our constituents value the current concessionary travel scheme, even if we tend to argue about it come election time. Indeed, there are perhaps few issues that are more controversial. However, there is one imbalance in the application of the existing legislation that needs to be addressed—one that I fear was not in the minds of those who framed the legislation back in 2007. Able-bodied pensioners who can use existing public transport can use their concessionary travel cards without any problem, but anyone with the misfortune to be a disabled pensioner or to have complex mobility needs, who perhaps cannot even make it to the bus stop in the first place, might have to rely on dial-a-ride services, demand-responsive services or other forms of community transport. In many cases, such people will have to pay their own way because, in essence, the community transport sector does not enjoy the statutory benefits for which the concessionary card scheme allows.
To me, that imbalance seems to be not only unfair, but contrary to the spirit of human dignity. Community transport as a sector ranges from the dial-a-ride services that I have mentioned to wheels-to-work schemes for apprentices, demand-responsive bus routes and community car schemes. There are at least 60,000 community transport volunteers up and down the country. Indeed, one could argue that the sector was nothing less than the big society in action. As hon. Members may be aware, section 22 community transport services are beginning to play a crucial role in filling the gaps that are appearing in many rural bus networks. However, my proposals focus on services provided under section 19 of the Transport Act 1985, which allows not-for-profit organisations to charge for providing transport to those whom it serves, without the need to obtain a public service vehicle operator’s licence. The provisions apply to any not-for-profit body associated with educational, religious, social welfare, recreational and other activities of benefit to the community.
I understand that many councils seek to subsidise travel for those who are disabled in various ways. However, not every council does, and with increasing budgetary pressures, which Members on both sides of the House must recognise, I fear that fewer and fewer will. For example, in my constituency, which is covered by two upper-tier councils, there are two ways in which those needs are fulfilled. Blackpool, for example, has an excellent dial-a-ride charity called Ride-Ability. One needs to be a member to access its services, and any member presenting a concessionary NoWcard with a blue stripe can obtain services for a half-fare. A disabled passenger with an orange NoWcard issued by the local authority can, on payment of 50p, obtain any single passenger journey that they wish to make. In Lancashire, however, the situation is slightly different in that the system is mileage related. People pay £2 to travel any distance up to two miles, and the fare goes right up to £10 for a journey of 18 miles or more.
I understand that, even as we speak, Blackpool council is reassessing whether to continue funding the Ride-Ability charity, which it subsidises to the tune of £112,000. One option that it seeks to adopt would involve restricting access to between 11 am and 3 pm, when the council’s existing vehicles are not used by people with other forms of special transport needs. My fear is that that option would restrict individual freedom and spontaneity. I am not sure that I would like to have to live my life only between the hours of 11 am and 3 pm.
I realise that my proposal will be interpreted by many, including the Government, as a request for a spending commitment. I am often contacted by pensioners who ask why they have been given a concessionary travel card when they do not need one. They tell me that they can afford to pay their own way. I often reply, “Actually, you are not obliged to use your concessionary travel card. There is nothing to stop you paying your own way, if you wish to do so.” That might be a sensible way forward, if the Government are concerned about how to fund the proposed extension.
Given the Government’s current enthusiasm for de-ring-fencing spending, I note that they have ring-fenced £10 million to local government for community transport schemes, so they have already established a slight predisposition towards the sector. I also note the words of the Community Transport Association, which has written:
“Any person unable to make use of their concession on existing eligible transport services as a result of disability, age or other limiting factor should be permitted to use it on other transport services, with the operators of those services being reimbursed by the administrators of the local concessionary travel scheme. All eligible passengers should receive equal access to services. However, the provision of this fair level of service to currently excluded individuals must not adversely affect the level or quality of service enjoyed by existing passengers”.
That goes to the nub of the matter.
My proposals might strike some as an unwelcome and unnecessary extension of the concessionary scheme. I accept that the present system is not ideal, by any stretch of the imagination. It contains too many flaws, inconsistencies and perverse consequences. Anyone who has read the recent Transport Committee report on bus services will be aware that more and more people have a concessionary fare card, but do not have the bus services on which to use them. I would say to anyone present who disagrees with my proposals that all I am seeking to do is ensure that the welcome benefits that apply to one section of the community should apply to everyone, including those with particular complex mobility problems. This is not a matter of bus policy, or even of wider transport policy. It is simply a matter of human dignity.
Question put and agreed to.
Ordered,
That Paul Maynard, Dr Julian Huppert, Paul Goggins, Mark Lazarowicz and Mr Lee Scott present the Bill.
Paul Maynard accordingly presented the Bill.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 24 February 2012, and to be printed (Bill 236).
Pensions Bill [Lords] (Programme) (No. 2)
(13 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)
I beg to move,
That the Order of 20 June 2011 (Pensions Bill [Lords] (Programme)) be varied as follows:
1. Paragraphs 4 and 5 of the Order shall be omitted.
2. Proceedings on Consideration shall be taken in the order shown in the first column of the following Table.
3. The proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the times specified in the second column of the Table.
Proceedings | Time for conclusion of proceedings |
|---|---|
Amendments to Clause 1 and Schedule 1, and New Clauses relating to state pension age. | 7.45 pm at today’s sitting. |
New Clauses relating to Part 2; Amendments to Clauses 4 to 17; New Clauses relating to the meaning of ‘money purchase benefits’; remaining New Clauses; Amendments to Clauses 2, 3 and 18 to 33; New Schedules; Amendments to Schedules 2 to 5; and remaining proceedings on Consideration. | 9 pm at today’s sitting. |
4. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 10 pm at today’s sitting.
Briefly, as you will be aware, Mr Speaker, this Pensions Bill covers a wide range of issues. The issue that has understandably attracted most attention has been the one about state pension age. The programme motion thus gives that issue the lion’s share of the time available for Report. There is a range of other important issues relating to private pensions, so the final hour or so is given over to all those issues. Rather than detaining the House by talking about talks, as it were, I commend the programme motion and hope that we can move on to debating the substantive issues.
Mr Speaker
Does Mr Timms or Mr McClymont wish to speak? There is no obligation on any right hon. or hon. Member to speak.
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)
Hon. Members will have noted that in his very brief speech the Pensions Minister did not mention my new clause 8. Debate on the first group of amendments is due to end at 7.45 pm. As a consequence, we will regrettably have only one hour and 15 minutes allocated to three further matters, including six Government new clauses and three Opposition amendments on automatic enrolment, and five Government new clauses and one Government amendment on money purchase benefits, before we reach my new clause. I do not know whether we will reach new clause 8, but I am, perhaps uncharacteristically, pessimistic. If we do not do so, the issue will, under the current proposals, come back to haunt us as we see the full cumulative effect of the change from the retail prices index to the consumer prices index basis.
I do not wish to open debate on my new clause now, but I want to put it on record, as I said on Second Reading, that the CPI has more often been lower than the RPI. The figures announced today show a small difference between the two measures, with RPI at 5.6% and CPI at 5.2%. That, of course, is no guarantee for the future. I will not detain the House further on this matter now, as I hope to able to speak to new clause 8. I just wanted to make those points at this juncture.
Question put and agreed to.
Pensions Bill [Lords]
(13 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
19:41 - The House divided: - Ayes: 244 / Noes: 291 - Question accordingly negatived.
22:00 - The House divided: - Ayes: 287 / Noes: 242 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)
I beg to move amendment 1, page 1, line 6, leave out ‘December 1953’ and insert ‘April 1955’.
Mr Speaker
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 3, page 1, line 8, leave out subsection (4).
Amendment 4, page 2, leave out lines 12 to 18 and insert—
‘6th April 1955 to 5th May 1955 | 6th May 2020 |
6th May 1955 to 5th June 1955 | 6th July 2020 |
6th June 1955 to 5th July 1955 | 6th September 2020 |
6th July 1955 to 5th August 1955 | 6th November 2020 |
6th August 1955 to 5th September 1955 | 6th January 2021 |
6th September 1955 to 5th October 1955 | 6th March 2021 |
6th October 1955 to 5th November 1955 | 6th May 2021 |
6th November 1955 to 5th December 1955 | 6th July 2021 |
6th December 1955 to 5th January 1956 | 6th September 2021 |
6th January 1956 to 5th February1956 | 6th November 2021 |
6th February 1956 to 5th March 1956 | 6th January 2022 |
6th March 1956 to 5th April 1956 | 6th March 2022.’—(Rachel Reeves.) |
Government amendments 13 and 14.
Amendment 5, page 2, line 19, leave out ‘1954’ and insert ‘1956’.
Amendment 6, page 23, line 20, in schedule 1, leave out from ‘(a)’ to end of line 22 and insert ‘delete “2024” and replace with “April 2020”.’.
Amendment 7, page 23, line 31, in schedule 1, leave out ‘6th December 2018’ and insert ‘6th April 2020’.
Gregg McClymont
In my first foray from the Dispatch Box, I would like to say that I look forward to having a continuing dialogue with the Minister on this subject. He has a formidable reputation in this field. He told me at our first meeting that one of my former students is now his researcher; that, I think, makes him doubly formidable. I would also like to pay tribute to my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves). She, along with thousands of women, has led the campaign to highlight the burden being placed on up to 500,000 women by the acceleration of the timetable for the equalisation of the state pension age. I think we can all agree that she has done a very important job of work.
We welcome the Government’s concessions as laid down in the amendments, but we do not think they go far enough. The Government are no longer condemning 245,000 women to an extra waiting period of between 19 and 24 months, and that is welcome; but it is too little, too late. The cardinal fact about the Bill remains that 500,000 women will still have to wait up to 18 months longer, and 330,000 will have to wait exactly 18 months longer, before reaching their state pension age. The Government have chosen to break the all-party Turner consensus that women’s state pension age should not reach 65 before 2020, and they have also broken the coalition agreement, which promised that women’s state pension age would not reach 65 before that year.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont)—this is the only time I am ever going to say that—on his new post. He mentioned Lord Turner. Is he aware that following the improvements in demographic projections that have taken place since Lord Turner produced his report, he is now on record saying that if he had been writing his report then, he would have gone much further much faster?
Gregg McClymont
The Minister is of course right. I believe that since the Turner report, longevity predictions have risen by 6.5% for men and 5.5% for women. There is no doubt that the issue is complex—no one is denying that—and there may well be a case for going further faster, but the burden of my argument involves the half a million women who must wait for up to 18 months. Our view is that that is a disproportionate burden, imposed without fair and due notice.
Gregg McClymont
I should like to make a little more progress first. I shall be happy to give way after that.
In 2005, in the days when the Conservative party was trying desperately to shift the perception that it had not changed, the present Prime Minister said:
“If you put eight Conservative men round a table and ask them to discuss what should be done about pensions, you'd get some good answers… but what you are less likely to get is a powerful insight into the massive unfairness relating to women's pensions.”
Alok Sharma
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for acknowledging that the Government have moved some way on the transitional arrangements, but may I ask him a question that I asked his predecessor, the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), in Committee? How does he expect to fund the changes that he proposes?
Gregg McClymont
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the savings that we are discussing have absolutely nothing to do with the deficit? They will accrue from 2016 onwards.
Alok Sharma
What the hon. Gentleman has said is interesting, given that when the Labour party was last in power, it did not really bother about saving for tomorrow. This is what his predecessor said when the point was raised in Committee:
“this is outside the period of the comprehensive spending review and the budget deficit reduction plan.”—[Official Report, Pensions Public Bill Committee, 5 July 2011; c. 8.]
As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are not going to suddenly stop spending and raising money after the budget deficit has gone. If we keep making unfunded pension commitments, that will add to the deficit and the debt in the future.
Gregg McClymont
That was not so much an intervention as a speech. The fact remains that the difference between the Government’s proposals and ours is £10 billion over 10 years. That is £1 billion a year. Is the hon. Gentleman really saying that a saving of that kind cannot be found in a more sophisticated way, without placing an unfair and disproportionate burden on those women? I do not agree, and nor does any other Opposition Member.
The Prime Minister was right when he suggested that if you put eight Conservative men around a table you would get some interesting answers on pensions, but you would not get the right answer. The Prime Minister was right then, and the Government are wrong now. The Minister’s amendments are welcome, and I am sure that he would personally like to go further, but he does not sit at the Cabinet table, although perhaps pensions Ministers should be in the Cabinet. This concession thus remains too limited. Some 500,000 women will still have to wait up to 18 months longer before reaching state pension age.
Turning to a point the Minister made earlier, this is not an easy issue, and there are great challenges, including that of longevity. As people live longer, the state pension age needs to rise to ensure a decent state pension for all. Labour set in train the Turner consensus: the state pension to rise in line with earnings; the retirement age to rise to 68 by 2046; and private pensions to be opt-out rather than opt-in. Labour also maintained the timetable for equalisation set out in the Pensions Act 1995.
Members on the Government Benches ask why we did not implement that, but Labour made great strides on pensions. Some 1 million pensioners were lifted out of poverty between 1997 and 2010. That is a real achievement. The poorest pensioners were lifted out of poverty. No pensioner lives in absolute poverty any longer. I must also point out that we had to do that because the previous Conservative Government left the pension system, and particularly the poorest pensioners, in a very difficult situation.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman takes us back into the mists of history, but surely today’s announcement can be warmly welcomed by all Members on both sides of the House? The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) describes this announcement as “just a sticking plaster”, however. I cannot think of any other sticking plaster in history which has cost £1.1 billion and helped 250,000 people. That cannot have been the case even when the right hon. Gentleman was at the Treasury.
Gregg McClymont
Perhaps because I have a historian’s perspective, I do not consider 35 years ago to be the mists of time. I think that that era is relevant to our discussion of pensions today.
We cannot sit still and do nothing on pensions. We accept that changes have to be made; we have no complaint about that, and we accept the Minister’s point about rising longevity.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
I am very pleased that my hon. Friend has taken up his new post. I am sure he agrees that a balance must be struck between dealing with rising longevity by having a plan to increase the state pension age over time, and offering short-term certainty to women who need to be able to plan their personal finances. We must not keep adjusting our pensions policy just because longevity keeps on rising. A sensible balance must be struck.
Gregg McClymont
My hon. Friend makes her point with greater eloquence than I could muster, and she sums up the crux of our case.
Labour set two tests for the Pensions Bill, and the Government continue to fail both of them. They fail the first test of giving fair and due notice, to which my hon. Friend just referred. Even if amended in line with the Government proposals, the Bill will not give those 500,000 women fair and proper notice of the rise in their state pension age.
Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman did not respond to the earlier point about needing to strike a balance between what this country can afford economically and what any Government might like to do. As Age UK has said, £1 billion to help 250,000 women is a big step forward. We should welcome that, rather than play petty politics with it.
Gregg McClymont
Actually, I did answer that point very simply. This has nothing to do with the deficit, and there is a £10 billion difference between our position and that of the Government over the 10 years after 2016, which amounts to £1 billion a year. If the hon. Gentleman is saying that that £1 billion a year is a fair and balanced outcome, all I can say is that, given the greater burden being placed on 500,000 women, Labour Members disagree with him.
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman mentions that the deficit will be brought down by 2015-16. That may be the case, but this country will still owe £1.14 trillion or £1.15 trillion. Does he think it fair and just that our children and their children, and probably their children, will be taking on that debt?
Gregg McClymont
Does the hon. Gentleman not understand his own Government’s policy, which is to eradicate the structural deficit by 2015? [Interruption.] According to the Government, the deficit will have gone. [Interruption.] The Secretary of State, from a sedentary position, makes the distinction between debt and deficit. I can tell him that I am well aware of that distinction, but I suggest that Members on the Government Benches are not so clear on this. I say that because £1 billion a year is one 1,000th of the debt that the hon. Gentleman just—
Gregg McClymont
No, I will not give way again, because I have answered the hon. Gentleman’s question very clearly. I will restate the point: £1 billion a year is one 1,000th of the national debt figure to which he just referred.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his place. I am wondering whether he taught my son, who is still at Oxford, as now I am really worried. Let me ask him a simple question. The simple fact is that he is getting confused. His argument was originally about the deficit and it has now drifted, rightly, into being about debt. However, debt is not some esoteric issue. If we do not pay off that debt and have a plan to pay it off, all our interest charges rise. The key thing is that it stacks up. Whether or not it is one 1,000th—or whatever he calculates—we have to make a start. We are making a major start on debt repayment. If, as he says, we are talking about only—as he says—£1 billion a year, he needs to tell us where he is going to find this sophisticated £1 billion to replace it?
Gregg McClymont
I thank the Secretary of State for his intervention. I am sure that his son is getting a better education than I could manage to provide, as he rather ungallantly suggested. The fact is that this is one 1,000th of the £1.3 trillion debt, and the issue is one of balance and proportion. Is £1 billion—
Gregg McClymont
I am sorry, but I have given way enough and I have to make progress.
Gregg McClymont
No, I will not give way. I am sorry to be able to quote some relevant arithmetic to Conservative Members—they do not seem to like it— but these are facts. Let me continue my point: £1 billion a year for 10 years is one 1,000th of our national debt.
Dame Anne Begg
I, too, welcome my hon. Friend to his first outing at the Dispatch Box. Perhaps this exchange has just illustrated all too clearly why women are deserting the Tories in huge numbers—it is because they do not feel that they should be the ones who have to bear the burden of the debt that exists. It is that balance that the Government have failed to understand.
Gregg McClymont
My hon. Friend, with her usual sagacity, gets to the heart of the matter. Given that we are talking about a small amount of money in the scheme of things—[Interruption.] The two tests that we have set are: do the Government’s plans give fair and due notice to the women concerned, and do those plans bear proportionately on all women affected? The answer is no and no. The Bill continues to place the longevity burden disproportionately heavily on women in their later 50s.
Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)
Conservative Members may not be able to understand the point my hon. Friend is making, but Labour Members clearly comprehend it. The Government have given us a target for when they will have paid off the structural deficit—we are into different territory. I was hoping that my hon. Friend might tease out from the Government how much of the overall changes they are making to the social security budget will bear on women compared with on men and women.
Gregg McClymont
I thank my right hon. Friend for that very important point. This all bears on the fact that, for all the talk, the Government do not understand the difference between a deficit and a national debt. That is pretty clear from our discussion so far.
Gregg McClymont
No, I will not.
Let me restate our case. The Bill fails our two tests: first, it fails to give fair and due notice of the rise in pension age to the 500,000 women concerned; and secondly, the burden falls disproportionately on this group of women.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and I am conscious that people watching this debate who are affected by it will begin to wonder whether we have somehow lost the plot. I have a constituent who has taken early retirement under deficit cuts and expected to get her pension when she was 64. She will now have to wait until she is 66 and she tells me that there will be a period when her money will simply have run out and she will have nothing to fill that gap. Does my hon. Friend agree that that could not by any stretch of the imagination be deemed to be fair?
Gregg McClymont
That bears precisely on the point. We are talking about real women and we must give due credence to their fears and anxieties, especially about due notice.
On fair notice, the fact remains that under the Government’s amended plans some women will have only five years to prepare. The shock of having to adjust at such short notice to a rise in the pension age of between 12 and 18 months cannot be overestimated—this reflects the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson). These women feel genuine anxiety. The 500,000 women in question made decisions based on what they thought was a contract with the Government that they had paid into the system for a certain amount of time and would get their state pension at a certain age. The Government have moved the goalposts dramatically for these women; there is no getting away from that and it is another way in which the Government are breaking the consensus we appeared to have in 2010.
The Government are going down a dangerous path with this Bill, which sets a precedent by which the principle of reasonable notice of changes in citizens’ state pension age is dramatically reduced. The precedent is important because as longevity rises and as the Minister already suggested, there will inevitably be further uplifts in the state pension age. The principle of reasonable notice is broken by this Bill.
The independent Pensions Policy Institute was very clear in its evidence to the Select Committee on Work and Pensions on that point. The 1995 Act gave women 15 years’ notice and although the Pensions Policy Institute understood that longevity is rising and that it is necessary to make changes more quickly, it still maintained that 10 years needed to be the minimum notice that any woman was given.
Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and I share his concern that the principle that the goalposts can be shifted with very short notice is serious. Does he agree that the problem with the longevity argument is that there are huge disparities in longevity according to people’s occupations as well as geographically? I am sure that affects his constituency, as it does mine.
Gregg McClymont
The hon. Lady makes a good point. That is an issue that my right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon North (Malcolm Wicks) often raises: averages can hide great disparities in social class as well as gender. That is a very important issue and I am sure the Minister is well aware of it.
The principle of reasonable notice is broken by the Bill. The Government’s concessions do not meet the fair and proper notice test, which is a principle of crucial importance. The second test we set for the Government was the proportionality test. They are unfairly and disproportionately singling out women aged 57 and 58 for harsher treatment. I do not suggest that they have singled them out deliberately—of course not—but I do say that they are not doing enough to compensate those women who have lost out in a birth date lottery that is not of their making. These women cannot, on the whole, afford the burden that the Government are placing on them, and they have certainly done nothing to deserve it. The Government should not make those women carry the heaviest burden of rising longevity—that is unfair and unjust. Some 500,000 women will still have to wait between a year and 18 months longer than they would have to reach state pension age. As I have previously stated, 330,000 women—one third of a million—will have to wait exactly 18 months longer, with the psychological and financial burdens that imposes.
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)
There is a further, regional unfairness in relation to the availability of work. If people are to work for longer, where are the jobs to come from? That will affect the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and mine as well as those in the north-east of England and many other places. Also, if people are filling jobs at the ages of 65 and 66, the knock-on effects on youth unemployment will be substantial.
Gregg McClymont
The hon. Gentleman makes a very important point. If women and men are to work for longer, we have to look at the figures for employment. My understanding is that up to 38% of women aged between 56 and 60 are not in employment at the moment. That is a real issue, which I am sure the Minister is considering.
The Bill fails the two tests, in that it is unfair and there is an undue lack of notice. It also fails the proportionality test. Take the case of Laura Davis, who is 57, single and suffers from a heart condition and acute osteoarthritis, which hampers her mobility. She works full time but her commute is a struggle. She was hoping for a dramatic revision of the Pensions Bill’s terms. Laura, from Watford, Hertfordshire says:
“It is a shame the Government could not meet us half way and say that no one in my age group would be required to work longer than a further 12 months….That would have been a better compromise.”
That is a compromise that the Opposition suggest, and it is why we seek to amend the Bill through our amendments to part 1, which I shall now address.
Our amendments do meet the tests of due notice and fair treatment for those half million women, and would ensure that no women would wait more than an extra 12 months to reach their state pension age. Our amendments would also bring forward the uplift in state pension age to 66 for both men and women, from 2026 to 2022, because we recognise that, as the Minister and other Government Members have emphasised, this is a difficult issue. There are no simple answers, and tough decisions will have to be taken. Our amendments would balance the sustainability of the pension system with the need to treat all women fairly. They offer a substantial saving of £20 billion, but not at the expense of those women. As I emphasised earlier in response to some amendments, the difference in annual savings from our amendments versus the Government’s is equivalent to 0.1% of central Government spending in 2011-12, or 1.3% of the Government’s annual pensions budget. Given the undue, disproportionate and unfair burden being placed on such women, I do not think that is too high a price to pay.
Gregg McClymont
I will give way to the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), followed by the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid).
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
I welcome my neighbour to his first appearance at the Dispatch Box. Given what he has just said about his party believing that this is not too high a price to pay, and given that the changes are not coming in and affecting those women until 2019-20, is he making a commitment today that were Labour to win the next election, the changes would be reversed?
Gregg McClymont
We are clear that we cannot have constant changes in pensions legislation. One of the problems that we face is precisely that— constant chopping and changing of the timetable, so we will vote for our amendments tonight in the hope that in their wisdom the Government will accept them. In that case we will all be happy, or at least those of us on the Opposition Benches.
Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Having been born in 1954, I need to declare an interest in the debate. The hon. Gentleman has argued for the spending of an extra £10 billion, but he cannot come to the Dispatch Box and argue for that without saying where the money is coming from. Is he going to put taxes up, cut some other spending programme or borrow more money? Will he please tell us?
Gregg McClymont
To make the position clear to the hon. Gentleman, we are proposing savings of £20 billion. The Government are proposing savings of £30 billion. These savings will come into effect from 2016. No sensible Opposition or indeed Government would set out a spending plan for the next Parliament five years before it would come into effect. If the hon. Gentleman considers his position to be credible, the difficulties that the Liberal Democrats are facing become a little easier to understand.
Mr Frank Field
Does my hon. Friend agree that it goes beyond cheek for a Liberal Democrat to question what we might be saying to the electorate in the next Parliament when that party signed an agreement a year ago and is happily voting in support of the Government Bill tonight?
Gregg McClymont
My right hon. Friend again makes a telling point. The Liberal Democrats signed a pledge on tuition fees which they immediately went into government and trashed, yet they want the Labour party to tell them what the spending plans of a future Labour Government would be five years down the line. As my right hon. Friend says, that is pure cheek.
Gregg McClymont
In the event that a modification in the timetable is necessary, and in answer to the questions about where the savings would come from, it may well be that the Government would do better to speed up the timetable for a state pension age of 67 and 68. That is something that we would consider. It is a much more sensible option than this disproportionate, unfair and unjust hit on women aged 57 and 58, of whom there are 500,000.
Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)
My hon. Friend’s point is well made. The Government’s position seems to be based on an assumption that women work for pin money. There is no understanding that women take time out for child care, that their pension pots are much smaller than those of men, and that these changes will create genuine hardship for the women on whom they impact.
Gregg McClymont
My hon. Friend is right. She represents a constituency where many women will be affected, particularly low-paid women. The proposed change has a socio-economic dimension of which I am sure the Minister is aware.
The amendment would make a real difference to the lives of the women affected. It is designed to secure a limited reform, targeted at a specific group whom the Government are not treating fairly, and it would give rise to costs representing just over 1%—one 100th—of the annual pensions budget.
The Chancellor has previously said that
“we are not going to balance the budget on the backs of the poorest and the most disadvantaged,”
but the costs of this Tory-led Government’s acceleration of the state pension age equalisation timetable targets a group with limited resources.
Alok Sharma
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He is making a passionate point, and he talks about social justice and fairness, but all those on whose behalf he speaks up will ask, “If the Labour party ever get back into power, will they enact these changes?” It is a fair question for everyone to ask, and it is fair that he gives us an answer today.
Gregg McClymont
After the hon. Gentleman’s previous intervention, he did not listen to the answer; given that intervention, he did not listen to the answer I gave the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire. He just does not seem to get it.
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Gregg McClymont
I am happy to give way to the hon. Lady, who I know is an expert on these issues.
Harriett Baldwin
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way, welcome him to his post and declare an interest also as a woman whose state pension age was increased to 66 under the previous Government. Given the £10 billion—
Harriett Baldwin
Eleven billion, that’s right.
Given the £11 billion commitment that the hon. Gentleman is making, and the £12.5 billion commitment that the shadow Chancellor has made, at what point do these billions of pounds add up to real money in the minds of Labour Front Benchers?
Gregg McClymont
The hon. Lady talks about real money, but the situation is clear: we are proposing £20 billion of savings starting in 2016; her Government are proposing £30 billion of savings. This measure would involve £1 billion a year over 10 years.
I understand that the hon. Lady has some actuarial experience, so she must understand that no sensible Opposition or, indeed, Government would put down in law that five years down the line they will still be committed to the same proposal. That is just common sense.
Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)
Does my hon. Friend agree that, as we talk about billions on one side of the House and billions on the other, the great irony is that public borrowing is up, when based on the Government’s predictions? If we are to talk about billions being out of place in terms of budgets, perhaps that is a good place for us to start.
Gregg McClymont
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. The Government are very good at finding money when they want to, yet, on issues that affect a significant number of women—half a million—and given the anxiety and financial cost involved, they just seem unmoved.
Let us reflect a little on the kind of women we are talking about. According to the Library, the median total private pension of a fit 56-year-old woman is £9,100. That is not £9,100 a year; that is £9,100 in total. The same figure for a man is closer to £53,000—and not only that: these women are more reliant than men on the state pension. Often, it is a woman’s only source of pension income, and 40% of such women have no private pension savings at all—[Interruption.] No one suggests that that is the Government’s fault, and that is a pretty simplistic suggestion from a sedentary position by the Minister, the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller), but the fact is that 40% of these women whom the Government are going to make wait between one year and 18 months have no private pension. The state pension is all they have.
Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)
That particularly resonates with my constituents in Inverclyde, where over 1,000 women who do not have a large pension to look forward to will be affected by this Bill. These are women who have taken time out to look after their children and are now providing child care for their sons and daughters, and perhaps looking after elderly relatives as well. These are women who can ill afford to lose out on their state pension, and also needed the time to prepare for this.
Gregg McClymont
My hon. Friend is spot on. Caring is a very important issue in this context. A third of these women are already retired, in their late 50s, and are often caring for relatives. Of course, men have caring responsibilities too, but in significantly lower numbers than women.
These women also earn less, on average, than men. They have less chance of making up for the £7,800 in lost pension income that the 330,000 women waiting for 18 months are estimated to lose. If pension credit is added to that, some women are losing up to £11,000, and that is before taking into account the benefits that accrue at state pension age, such as the winter fuel allowance, free travel and so on. This is a serious financial loss to these women.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
My hon. Friend has made the very point that I was going to make. These women are losing out not only on pensions, and potentially pension credit, but on the passported benefits that are so important for low-paid pensioners, such as the winter fuel allowance, free bus travel, free dental work and free prescriptions. Those things are really important to this group of women, and they will have to wait longer to receive them.
Gregg McClymont
That is absolutely right. There is no doubt that this is a significant blow to these 500,000 women. That is why we have tabled our amendments. If they were passed this evening, the 330,000 women facing an 18-month hike in state pension age would have restored to them the average amount of £7,800. If they were on pension credit, they would also have restored to them up to £11,000 and all the other benefits that accrue at state pension age that my hon. Friend mentioned. I say it again: this is a serious, significant issue for a large group of women.
Our amendments offer the Government one last chance to show women that they get it. We are all aware of the Government’s growing problem with women voters. We hear the reports of the Prime Minister huddled in No. 10 surrounded by advisers and pollsters explaining to him just how grim the news is regarding the opinions of women voters. Support for this Government among women is falling off a cliff. According to the reports from inside No. 10, the pollsters are telling the Prime Minister that 25% more women than men believe that the economy is going in the wrong direction, while 10% more women than men are saying that cuts are falling unfairly on women—and no wonder, given this Bill, among other things. According to the leaks from inside No. 10, favourability towards the coalition among women is now 12 points lower than it was 18 months ago. Women are twice as likely to think that their children will have a worse life and less opportunity than their generation. Overall support from female voters for the Conservatives and for the Liberal Democrats has slipped significantly, and we know today that the Government are falling further behind in the polls.
Our amendments offer the Government a chance to show that they get it and that they understand that what matters to women is the impact of Government policies on their lives and the lives of their families. Our amendments offer the Government a chance to show belatedly, on an issue that matters, that they understand women’s priorities. I commend our amendments to the House.
Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD)
This is slightly earlier in the debate than I expected to be called. I will speak briefly on the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont) and the Government amendments.
I know that we will have a fuller debate later, but much of the Bill has complete agreement across the House and is extremely welcome. The changes to the state pension age seem to have overshadowed many of the other issues in the Bill. As I said on Second Reading, I and many of my Liberal Democrat colleagues were deeply concerned about the effect of these changes on women who are being asked to work significantly longer at short notice.
The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken—I will not repeat his constituency name, as saying it once was an achievement—said that the state pension age has to rise, and I think that we all accept that. We are all living longer. The gains in life expectancy have been significant and are continuing. In 1970, someone reaching 60 could expect to live for 18 years. Last year, that had risen to 28 years. That puts a significant financial burden on the state. By the time I retire, I fully expect the retirement age to be somewhere north of 70. Goodness knows whether there will even be a state pension by that point.
When we are increasing the state pension age, we need to ensure that it is done as fairly as possible. I and my colleagues, a number of whom are present, have been vocal in our efforts to change the timetable. I know that the Minister and his colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions have been actively working within Government to ensure that the timetable is fairer and that those who are worst affected by the changes are protected. In my view, the initial draft timetable was not fair to the women who were worst affected. I am pleased that the Government have listened to the concerns that were raised by many people and have tabled today’s amendments. I am sure that the Minister will tell us more about them in his summation.
Lilian Greenwood
I hear what the hon. Lady says, but will she explain to the 300,000 women who will have to wait longer than anybody else to receive their state pension—between a year and 18 months longer—why they should have to pay more of the burden than anyone else?
Jenny Willott
Later in my speech I will move on to comments that relate to the hon. Lady’s point.
Capping the state pension age increase to a maximum of 18 months will protect 250,000 women, as we have heard, and 250,000 men. Therefore, 500,000 people will be better off as a result of the Government amendments. As we have heard, that is costing more than £1 billion. I am grateful to the Secretary of State and the Minister for managing to get £1 billion out of the Treasury. That is no mean feat. A problem with any change to the state pension is that the costs are in the billions, not the millions.
Jenny Willott
I will make some progress first.
That problem makes it extremely difficult for small changes to be made. Given the financial circumstances, with the issues of debt and deficit that we have discussed, and the fact that other Departments are asking for money in the millions rather than the billions, convincing Treasury officials to be more generous cannot be easy. I hope that all hon. Members appreciate that the £1 billion going to these 500,000 people is a significant amount of money that has been found by the Government.
Hywel Williams
From the tenor of the hon. Lady’s remarks, it sounds as though she is satisfied with the concession that the Minister has achieved. I congratulate him on the distance that he has gone and I do not underestimate the difficulties. However, is the hon. Lady confident that the women in her constituency who will still be affected will be as easily persuaded as her?
Jenny Willott
I was just going to move on to the fact that, although I am delighted by the changes, in an ideal world I would have liked us to go further. I would have liked to see the cap closer to 12 months than 18 months, but we are not in an ideal world and the cost associated with that would have been significant. I understand that the cost of capping at 12 months would have been close to £3 billion, which would have been a significant amount of money to find. That would have been an uphill struggle. We have to appreciate the scale of the money that has been found to make things better for the women who are worst affected.
There has been a broad coalition campaigning on this subject, including Age UK, Saga and Members of all parties. Some have been extremely constructive in their campaigning and in the pressure that they have put on the Government, whereas others have been slightly less constructive at times. Some of what the Labour party has proposed today is, I think, unrealistic. It is unhelpful to the attempt to make as much progress as we would like towards helping the women who are most affected.
The Labour amendments tabled in Committee and today on Report that would delay the entire increase by two years are not sensible or realistic. Regardless of what the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East says, £10 billion would be a huge black hole in the public finances, and it would be a significant amount that the Government would have to find. [Interruption.] I am told that it would be closer to £11 billion. I am not going to start the debt versus deficit debate again, but there would be a huge black hole if we accepted a Labour party proposal that would require an unfunded promise of £11 billion.
Gregg McClymont
I have a very simple question for the hon. Lady. Why take that money from these women?
Jenny Willott
I would be grateful if the hon. Gentleman could clarify to us where the money that he proposes spending would come from. Unless we tackle the financial crisis in this country and the financial circumstances that we face, my child and all our children and grandchildren will be paying off the debt. We have to tackle the debt—it is real money that needs to be found, and a £10 billion black hole would be a significant one to fill.
Dame Anne Begg
Can the hon. Lady explain where the Government are finding the £1 billion that is needed to make the change that is being announced today?
Jenny Willott
I am really sorry, but I cannot tell the hon. Lady where the Minister has found the money. I am sure that if she asks him the same question later, he will respond.
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)
I am sure we all have great sympathy with the women who have been most adversely affected by the changes, but do you not agree that the Labour party’s argument would be far more credible if it were able to tell us where it would make up the difference? Then we would be able to decide on the matter, as opposed to being told, “It is only £11 billion, we should find it from somewhere else.”
Jenny Willott
I completely agree. There is strong feeling throughout the House that in an ideal world, none of us would want to see the problem exist. We all accept that the state pension age will have to increase, because we are living longer and there is a black hole in the finances. I have said that in an ideal world, I would like to see the increase capped at 12 months, but we are not in an ideal world and we have to find a compromise that is workable and affordable. I appreciate that there are women who will be negatively affected by today’s proposals, and I am sure that we all have huge sympathy for them. However, I am glad that the Government have found the resources needed to mitigate the difficulties faced by those who are most severely affected.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
Does the hon. Lady not agree that in politics, choices are constantly made, and that there are a number of choices that could be made in this case? There are those, for example, who argue that the 50% tax rate should be reduced at an early date, and there are those who argue that the generous tax reliefs given to people on higher rate tax who contribute to pension schemes could be ended, giving substantial savings. Does she agree that there are always choices, and it is not just a question of asking where a particular sum of money will be found?
Jenny Willott
I completely accept that political decisions are a matter of priorities and choices—all hon. Members understand that, because we are all involved in political debates and decisions. As I have said, in an ideal world, I would like the cap to be reduced. However, given the financial circumstances, the Government’s proposal is a compromise that I can accept. I understand that some will be negatively affected, but we have made significant progress. Half a million women and half a million men will benefit from the proposals, which I accept as a positive compromise.
Alok Sharma
My hon. Friend makes the point that we are not in an ideal world. A large part of the reason why we are not in the world that we would like to be in is that the previous Labour Government left us with a record deficit. Labour Members are now talking about another £10 billion. Does she agree that it is ludicrous for them to talk about unfunded commitments, and that they should instead apologise for the mess that they left the country in?
Jenny Willott
We need to focus on what is realistic and affordable. The Bill will affect people’s lives, and we need to ensure that the state pension is affordable and sustainable long into the future. I want to receive the state pension that I have paid into when I come to retire, and I am sure all hon. Members and people out there in the country would want the same thing.
I welcome the fact that Labour Front Benchers are now more positive toward to today’s proposals, and that they are prepared to accept that the Government have moved to the significant benefit of a large number of women, even if a realistic approach is somewhat lacking in their proposed amendments.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Does not the hand-wringing between 12 months and 18 months, and billions here and there, show the utter vanity of the UK spending billions on Trident nuclear weapons, when we are finding difficulty in paying money to old age pensioners?
Jenny Willott
The hon. Gentleman tempts me into an area into which I will not follow him. That is an issue for another day, although my position is probably not too dissimilar from his.
Given the financial circumstances and the constraints that the Government face, the deal proposed today is a good one. The Government’s amendments substantially mitigate the worst problems, and we should bear it in mind that £1 billion is a huge amount of money.
I hope the Minister can now concentrate on introducing a flat-rate pension for those whose retirement age is increased. That would make a massive difference to the amount that people get from their basic state pension when they retire, and it will benefit women in particular. Will he confirm that he still plans to introduce a flat-rate pension for 2016, so that women who are affected by the state pension age increase that we are discussing will be the first, or among the first, beneficiaries? In that way, although they retire later, they will do so on a significantly enhanced state pension, which would mitigate some of the financial implications of the Bill.
I commend the Minister and his colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions for their efforts, and for their achievement of parting £1 billion from the Treasury to make the changes better, so that the effects are mitigated for those who are hardest hit. I hope that he continues to work to improve retirement income for both men and women.
Malcolm Wicks (Croydon North) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott). I may touch on some of her themes as I make progress.
The Minister will forgive me for repeating some of the issues that I have raised before, not least in Committee. My main point is this: pension policy in Britain has always been at its best when it goes with the grain of how our society works and of how our people work and live. It is also at its best when we have the courage for long-term planning, with time scales and periods of notice that enable men and women to plan their lives and their retirement properly.
This Parliament first legislated for old age pensions more than 100 years ago, because it started to understand the extraordinary fact that, for the first time in broad numbers, working people were outliving their working lives: hence the need for an income in old age. We then had the great national insurance reforms, which the Liberal party should have much credit for introducing, including particularly those in the great report by the Liberal reformer, William Beveridge.
Malcolm Wicks
Not at the moment, because I want to set out the three assumptions before I deal with the hon. Gentleman’s false—or possibly accurate—assumptions.
The second assumption is that British people live and work in similar ways. It is assumed that we start work and retire at more or less the same. The third assumption is that if we increase—as it appears we will—the pension age and the age of retirement, work will somehow be available. If people do not retire until 66 or 67, it is suggested that this Government’s extraordinarily brilliant economic and employment policies will deliver labour for the people. It is those three assumptions that I wish to question.
Stephen Metcalfe
Longevity and extended life expectancy are key to this argument. You point out that longevity is not necessarily equally spread across society. Are you saying that certain sectors of society have benefited from improved longevity more than others, and that for some, life expectancy has not risen at all?
Malcolm Wicks
Certainly for some people it has not, but broadly speaking it is my understanding that it has risen for all socio-economic groups. My assumption is that it will continue to increase, but it is the differences by social class that the hon. Gentleman’s question enables me to tease out—
Malcolm Wicks
With respect, I think that what I have to say will be helpful to the hon. Gentleman, and I am sure that he will tell me where I get it wrong, if I do.
I want to analyse mortality by social class. I shall talk about men in particular, although there is a class difference among women too. People in social class 7 tend to be in routine occupations. For example, they might be labourers, van drivers, packers or cleaners; many women would be cleaners. We hear a lot about longevity and how we will all live to 100: the Minister keeps telling us—he issues a press notice every few months—that one fifth or one sixth of us will live to 100. It might surprise the House, therefore, that 19%—almost one fifth—of men from social class 7 die before the age of 65. Almost one fifth of these hard-working working-class people in tough jobs—no doubt they have had tough lives too—die before 65.
I put that point to the Minister and the House because, before glibly raising the pension age to 66 or 67, we need to recognise that many of our fellow citizens do not live to 65. Furthermore, 10% of women in social class 7 die before the age of 60, while among the professional classes, that figure is only 4%. I should have said earlier that, in contrast to the 19% figure, the proportion of men in the professional classes who die before the age of 65 is 7%. So there is a huge social class differential, and if we are not careful—we need to do the arithmetic very carefully—and if we glibly increase the pension age, we might rule out more and more people from ever getting their old age pension.
Steve Webb
The right hon. Gentleman raises some important issues. I do not think that he was Pensions Minister at the time, but he will be aware that it was the Pensions Act 2007 that ultimately raised the state pension age to 68. Why did he support that, given the points that he is making now?
Malcolm Wicks
I recognised the logic of demography and longevity and the need to raise pension ages, but since ceasing to be a Minister of any kind, I have had more opportunity to think about this and to study it—[Laughter.] The Minister might try thinking independently. It is not a bad idea. I would not giggle at the idea that we rethink our positions from time to time. I have rethought my position on this, not least because the Government are going helter-skelter towards raising the pension age in ways that the Labour Government never foresaw.
Stephen Metcalfe
I am grateful to you for giving way for a second time. You said that 19% of men in social class 7 die before they reach 65. Of those, how many were in work at the time? Is this a social problem relating to health, or is it caused by the nature of the work that they have done? I ask because I am concerned that we are saying that we cannot raise the pension age because of this particular group, when in fact everyone’s life expectancy, regardless of how tough a life you have, has increased over the past 20 or 50 years.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. May I help the hon. Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe)? I follow closely the question of women’s pension age and longevity, but he should not be addressing me—which is what he is doing when he says “you”—he should be addressing the rest of the Members in the Chamber. He has used that term several times now, and I gently ask him to observe the convention.
Malcolm Wicks
I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman how many of those people were still working when they died—although I want to say something later about the circumstances of that group of people.
Richard Graham
The right hon. Gentleman has much experience in these matters. However, may I put it to him that the reason why he voted in 2007 for the increase in the pension age was simply that the statistics to which he referred had changed so much? In 1911, when the first pensions were introduced—to be paid at 65—the average life expectancy of a male in the United Kingdom was 66. He made the point that some people today still die before the age of 65. Back in 1911, the vast majority of males died before that age. Life expectancy today is now 87 for the average male. Does he not agree that the changes in the state pension age reflect a huge change in longevity, and that the pension age has actually risen very slowly?
Malcolm Wicks
I am bound to say that life expectancy is not 87. On average, a girl born in the UK will live to 82 and a boy to 77. Obviously, however, once they have survived to the age of 65 many people are likely to live into their 80s, so I understand the broad point being made.
I shall conclude later by talking about a sensitivity that we could introduce into the system that might meet some of those problems, although the Minister has so far resisted it. However, now I want to refer to the association between social class and location, which various colleagues are interested in and knowledgeable about. This is not just about the broad difference between living in Kensington and living in parts of Glasgow; even within many of our big cities there are huge class differences in mortality. Across Sheffield, for example, there is a difference in life expectancy of more than 14 years between different parts of the city, and even in Kensington and Chelsea—the borough with the highest life expectancy—there is a difference of eight years between the most and the least deprived wards—which, for those of us who know Kensington, is not so surprising. Those differences and unfairnesses are reflected in terms of where people live in our cities.
Before I mention the idea that I have been trying to persuade the Minister to accept, I want to apply some pressure elsewhere: where will the jobs come from? We are living through a period of rising unemployment, and many people, including graduates with good degrees, in their 20s, 30s and 40s, cannot get jobs. Are we confident that if we make these accelerated changes—as the Minister knows, the acceleration is the difference between what the Labour Government did and what the coalition Government are doing—the work will be available?
Now 39% of 62-year-old men and 52% of 64-year-old men are not working, which means that huge proportions of men approaching what is meant to be their retirement are effectively retired from the labour market already. Furthermore, 36% of 58-year-old women are not working. I fear that we will be extending a kind of benefit twilight zone, in which people who are ineligible for their state pension—because we are raising the pension age—will jog along on incapacity or other benefits, with no one in the jobcentre pretending that those folks will get work—even the Minister will not be able to pretend that they will—and a huge army of people living in a state of desperation in that twilight zone.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will share our concerns about last week’s unemployment figures, which showed an increase among young people and women. Is there not a concern that unemployment levels for women are rising, and does that concern not need to be expressed tonight in the House?
Malcolm Wicks
That is the concern. Ironically, we are having this debate while the spectre of mass unemployment—as Liberals will remember, William Beveridge called it the giant evil of idleness—rears its ugly head, yet we are accelerating the increase in the age at which people will get their retirement pension.
Hywel Williams
The geographical variation is extremely gross if one adds in people who are economically inactive. The proportion of people who are economically inactive varies from place to place. Merthyr Tydfil is an obvious example in Wales. Last time I looked, the constituency of Witney had three economically inactive people searching for each job, while in the Rhondda that number was 154. That is a gross variation, and is not something to be disregarded.
Malcolm Wicks
That is an extraordinary variation, and one of the implications is that in order to make good policy and ensure good practice in pensions and other areas, we in this Parliament—including those on the Government Benches—need to have some understanding of how people work, and not just think of our own circumstances.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
The right hon. Gentleman is making a powerful point given the current economic circumstances, but we do not know what the employment circumstances will be in 2016 or 2020. Does he agree that the more essential point is that because people see investing in their pensions as a long-term decision, it is the short-term way in which these changes are being introduced that is creating all the unfairness? People had certain expectations and had made contributions, but the benefit from those contributions is now being denied them.
Malcolm Wicks
Yes, hence my introduction, when I argued that pensions policy in this country has always been at its best when it goes with the grain of how people live and makes long-term decisions that individuals can plan around. It is the acceleration of the process that we are now discussing. It is extraordinary that, having taken so much money out of the pensions system, the Conservatives—and, I suppose I have to say, the Liberals—now want credit for putting some of it back. That is a bit of Tory arithmetic that I am not terribly impressed by.
Harriett Baldwin
Does the right hon. Gentleman not welcome, as I do, the additional £25 billion going into the triple lock of the state pension, which, as of today, will protect pensioners from the rise in inflation?
Malcolm Wicks
That issue—how the shift from the retail prices index to the consumer prices index will affect the real value of pensions in future—is a subject for another day, although colleagues might want to touch on it today. My guess is that that shift, which seems quite dry and technical, will become the big pensions swindle of the 21st century. I am therefore not quite as impressed by the triple lock as the loyalist hon. Lady is.
Harriett Baldwin
Does the right hon. Gentleman not acknowledge that whereas his proposal was to uprate the state pension in line with average earnings, which would mean an increase of 1.8%, the triple lock chooses the best of the three? That is an incredibly important reinforcement of our state pension.
Malcolm Wicks
Yes, but I hope that the hon. Lady will consider my point about CPI and RPI, because we are talking about billions of pounds that could be lost to British pensioners when that change is implemented over coming decades.
Let me reach my conclusion. We suffer from over-generalisations in this field. I am fed up with macho commentators, often from the political, professional and business class, who somehow assume that everyone will live to a ripe old age and that those in their 60s will have portfolios full of all sorts of opportunities—a directorship here, writing a book or doing a television programme there. Many people, not least those on the Government Benches, talk about a world of that kind—I do not want to get the hon. Lady over-excited: she has had many chances to respond, but she knows who I am talking about. Given the typical life cycles for the late 20th and early 21st centuries, more and more of our children and grandchildren will effectively not get started in their careers until their early 20s or even their mid-20s. With the rise of university education, the pattern of many people’s working lives will be like that.
However, that pattern is not at all typical of everyone in our society. When we recall the question that the hon. Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) asked about the mortality of those people, let us remember that there are still many working people coming up to retirement who started their working lives as 15 or 16-year-olds. They are the packers, the cleaners, the van drivers, the heavy manual workers and the care workers. By the time they reach retirement they are worn out. They are physically knackered, if I am allowed to use those words. They are tired, they are exhausted and what they need, in an old-fashioned sense, is a rest. They need to retire. They are not people like the hon. Gentleman, who I suspect will still be sprightly in his late 60s and 70s, with his portfolios and all the rest of it; they are physically worn out. They have been working since they were children, and they need a rest.
Stephen Metcalfe
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. He is making a powerful argument and some interesting points, but they relate to increasing the state pension age, full stop. This is not an argument about the escalation of that process; it is an argument about whether we should change the age at which people can claim their state pensions, which is separate from the debate that we are currently having.
Malcolm Wicks
My argument is that it is wrong to treat someone who starts work at 15 or 16 equally to someone who starts their first proper job at 21 or, with post-graduate qualifications, 23, 24 or 25. People who start earlier have often been in the labour market doing tough manual work—tougher work than any of us have ever done—for 10 more years than the likes of us. My argument is that we should reconstitute our national insurance system to recognise the contributions that they have made, so that anyone in work for, say, 49 years and paying contributions throughout that time should at the very least be able to take not an early pension, but a pension at a more reasonable age. If that brings about a difference between when they take their pension and when their grandchildren who went to university take theirs, that would be fair.
If we do not start to understand some of these social, employment and class sensitivities as we helter-skelter towards higher state pension ages, we will make mistakes and, with great unfairness and injustice, and leave people behind. Many of those people will never get their pensions, because they will be dead before they qualify for them. That is not a sign of a decent British pensions system that understands how our society is evolving.
Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)
I rise to speak on behalf of the hundreds and possibly thousands of women who have contacted me on this matter. I also speak as a woman who is directly and personally affected by the Government’s changes, so I am in a position to tell the Government what is happening to women of a certain age when it comes to pensions.
The women who have contacted me have told me that they expected changes in the pension age. They know that we are all living longer—or rather, that some of us are—that we need to plan for our retirement better and over a longer period, that we need to pay more for our pensions and that there needs to be some equalisation between when men and women access their pensions. They understand and recognise all that. However, it is the speed at which the changes are being implemented that is causing anxiety and fear among women who no longer have time to plan and save for their future.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. I, too, have been contacted by hundreds of concerned women in my constituency. Although we acknowledge the Government’s concessions, which they probably made because of the pressure that those women have put on them, they will not meet everybody’s needs. Hundreds of my constituents will still be up to £11,000 worse off, with not enough time to plan for a reasonable pension in their old age.
Pat Glass
I absolutely agree. This is just one more Government policy, on top of others that directly affect women and young people more than any other group, that will impoverish women. Whatever last-minute fixes the Government come up with, it remains wrong to penalise disproportionately women who happen to be between the ages of 56 and 58, many of whom have worked all their working lives. Many of them will have held several jobs in order to keep their families. They have paid their taxes and their bills, and, quite frankly, they deserve better than this.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
Does the hon. Lady accept that the pension is one of the few certainties in life and that it is now being ditched for women of a certain age, as she aptly puts it? Those women have planned meticulously for when their retirement will begin and what they will use their pension for. They have planned how it will be broken down into housekeeping and into meeting the needs of their grandchildren, for example, but that is all being thrown askew by these proposals.
Pat Glass
Absolutely. This is causing not just anxiety but fear among those women, many of whom have been barred, until recently, from private company pension schemes because they were having to work in several part-time jobs with very low incomes in order to keep their families. They are now being let down by a Government who are simply not giving them sufficient time, which is all that they are asking for, to plan for the change.
Dr Whiteford
Given what we have heard from the right hon. Member for Croydon North (Malcolm Wicks) about the failure of people’s health to keep up with the increase in longevity, does the hon. Lady agree that many of those women will not be in the best of health and will be having to look for jobs at a time when their health might be compromised and they are not nearly as fit as they used to be?
Pat Glass
I absolutely agree.
The Chancellor has told us that he will not balance the books on the backs of the poor abroad, so why is he prepared to balance the books to a disproportionate degree on the backs of 500,000 women who just happen to have been born between 6 October 1953 and 5 March 1955? Why is it okay to do that to those women? The Government need to listen to the women of this country and accept Labour’s amendment so that no woman will have to wait more than an extra 12 months to reach their state pension age.
Richard Graham
I am delighted to be called to speak in the debate. I welcome amendments 13 and 14, which show that the Government have listened to their people, and I congratulate the Secretary of State and the Pensions Minister on successfully providing some relief to women in their 50s in my constituency. I pay tribute to all those from Gloucester who came to see me about this issue, led by Patsy Toleman, and to those who were encouraged by the campaign led by Age UK to write to me about it.
Like others on both sides of the coalition Government, I have been very active in writing to and making the case personally to the Secretary of State and the Chancellor, and I am sorry that the Opposition have been less than generous in their recognition of the value of capping at 18 months the increase in the wait for their pension for 250,000 women. They should perhaps be reminded that Age UK has said that
“we can’t emphasise enough the great achievement that this change represents as it will cost the Government £1 billion in lost cuts to expenditure.”
Richard Graham
I will be more generous than the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont) was earlier; I will give way.
Fiona O’Donnell
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his generosity. He might find us ungenerous, but I wonder how many of those women who came to see him have been in touch over the past few days to tell him that the Government have gone far enough.
Richard Graham
I have not heard specifically from any of those who originally lobbied me on this issue. No doubt they will be hearing this debate, and I think that they will recognise, as all Members should do, that the Government cannot simply brush aside the issue of expenditure as those on the Opposition Front Bench did when they were in government. The interest that all our families are having to pay on the mountain of national debt built up by the hon. Lady’s party over the past 13 years means that an amount greater than the entire education budget is being spent on debt interest alone. That affects every woman in her constituency and in mine.
Sammy Wilson
The hon. Gentleman has rightly said that the Government have listened to the case that has been made, that they have made additional money available and that they will give people some notice of the changes in the pension age. Does he accept, however, that for many people who are carers, for example, or who are in part-time work or in and out of work for other reasons, the time horizon that is now being made available to them will not give them much chance to plan for their retirement?
Richard Graham
In a perfect world, everyone would have liked the changes to have gone further, but I believe that capping the additional waiting period at 18 months represents a significant step forward in providing time for preparation. We are not, alas, living in a perfect world—
Richard Graham
I should like to finish answering the previous intervention before I take the next one.
I am sure that the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) would agree that tonight is all about a welcome change for all of us.
Pat Glass
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. We have heard several Members on the Government Benches talk about a perfect world, but does he accept that we did not have a perfect world in 1909, when the first pensions legislation was discussed, and that we certainly did not have one in 1945? Other Governments nevertheless saw that it was right not to take this kind of action, despite the very difficult financial circumstances in which they found themselves.
Richard Graham
I do not believe that that analogy is relevant. As I pointed out earlier to the right hon. Member for Croydon North, any analogy that stretches to compare today’s announcements with those in the original pensions legislation in 1911 is inaccurate, because it leaves aside the critical factor that life expectancy back then was hugely different from what it is now. In fact, the vast majority of people then did not live long enough to collect their pension, whereas today people will be living for 40, or possibly 50, years beyond their pension age—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown) is chuntering away, but the reality is that there are people in the public service who are drawing their pension in their 40s or early 50s, and it is not inconceivable that they will live for another 40 years.
Richard Graham
I will not give way on that point.
The arguments of the Opposition, who tabled amendments 1 to 7, have been extremely disappointing. My constituents will have heard three main points from the Opposition Front Bench. First, the Opposition have opposed the changes made by the Government on the basis that they do not go far enough. Secondly, the Opposition have strongly intimated that if elected in 2015, they would not implement the changes that they recommend tonight, which reeks strongly of hypocrisy. Thirdly, they have made it clear that they are not concerned about the additional £11 billion costs of their proposals, as they could be dealt with in the future and, therefore, should not affect our debate today. That is an entirely irresponsible attitude, which is entirely in keeping with the words of the former Chief Secretary to the Treasury when he announced that he was sorry there was no money left. It is very disappointing that the same philosophy is still strongly in evidence from the Opposition Front-Bench team.
Brandon Lewis
I was in the Chamber when the shadow Minister commented on £1 billion a year being only one thousandth of the debt, thus implying that it was a small amount of money. If we are talking about people being in touch with reality, surely my hon. Friend would agree that people outside this place will wonder about the economic credibility of an Opposition party that says £1 billion is not a lot of money.
Richard Graham
My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. As an American economist once said, “A billion here, a billion there, and sooner or later you have a large sum of money”. It is disappointing to hear such an irresponsible approach to spending and to the interest being paid by everybody in this country on our vast mountain of national debt.
Let me conclude. Tonight, I shall vote in favour of amendments 13 and 14. I recognise the significant achievement, to which Age UK has paid tribute, represented by the welcome changes that will benefit large numbers of women across the country. I pay tribute again to those women in my constituency who lobbied me on the issue, for whom I fought a long and quiet campaign with Ministers. I shall not vote for amendments 1 to 7, and I greatly regret the fact that the Opposition continue to table motions that they would not implement were they in power.
Dame Anne Begg
The Government’s amendments are an admission that they realise, at long last, that they got it very wrong about the acceleration of the new state pension age for women. On Second Reading and in Committee, there was always a promise that the Government would come up with some sort of transitional arrangements for the group of 500,000 women who will have to wait more than a year, and particularly for the group of 33,000 women who will have to wait for two years before qualifying for the state pension. However,all they have done is to shift the timetable six months later. Why cannot they go the whole hog and take the anomaly out of the system altogether? If they were to do as the Opposition ask and delay all the increases to the age of 66 until after 2020, once the initial transition is over for women between 60 and 65, there would be no anomaly that would require transitional or any special arrangements at all. There would then be no unfairness specifically to women—it is, of course, only women who have been affected by the changes—and that would also answer the question posed by my hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont) about the lack of time available for the group of women affected to prepare for the new pension age.
If the Government have recognised that issue, it is a shame that they could not go further. I suspect it is probably because the Minister, to whom I pay tribute, has found that getting anything out of the Treasury is like getting blood out of a stone. I recognise that getting just over £1 billion is a huge achievement, but in the overall scheme of things, and given the effects of the change, it would have been better—it would have been better if acceleration had not been proposed in the first place—if the problems had been properly recognised.
Before Government Members applaud themselves and welcome the change too much, perhaps we should think about the enormous campaign that was waged against the proposals. Would that campaign have existed if the Government had proposed at the outset what they propose now? In other words, when all this started, if it had been proposed that there would be an acceleration of the women’s state pension age up to 66 before 2020 so that 300,000 women would have to wait 18 months longer—on top of the delay they were already facing because of the timetable already set—would there have been the same outcry and the same campaign? I think that the answer to that question is unequivocally yes.
Just because the Government have made something bad slightly less worse, it does not mean that what is being proposed is not particularly bad. Someone who, after an accident, is told by a surgeon that they will lose both their legs, and who finds out after they come out of the anaesthetic that they have lost only one might feel a degree of elation that this was better than they had expected. However, someone going into an operation expecting to lose a leg who does lose one would still feel disappointed. In other words, the amendments that we are being asked to vote on still do not amount to a good deal for the group of women concerned.
Richard Graham
I simply want to observe that if any of us went into an operation expecting to lose both legs and a doctor managed to save one of them, surely we would feel that the doctor had done rather a good job. The analogy with the Minister’s announcement this evening is not irrelevant.
Dame Anne Begg
The hon. Gentleman has just made my point for me. Yes, we would feel a lot better, but if we had gone into the operation not expecting to lose either leg, but discovered afterwards that we had lost one, we would be absolutely devastated. The result would appear to be the same, but the emotional trauma caused in the meantime is quite different. That is exactly the position faced by these women.
The women we are talking about are not rich; they are not people for whom a billion pounds here or there amounts to pennies or not much money. These are women who have made the financial calculation that they will be able to get their state pension at a particular age. Some of them are still making the calculation that they will get the state pension at 60. I received an e-mail today from someone who could not understand why her pension age had gone up by 30 months. It is because she had not taken into account the original equalisation. That is no fault of the Government, but it illustrates the fact that people need a lot of time to prepare for the change, and even if they have had the time, they are not always prepared for it.
For the group of women who had not realised that the state pension age was going up to 65, it is a double whammy to discover that it is now going up to 66 and that they must face waiting that extra time, perhaps with no income at all. Many of these women will be in that position, even if they have taken early retirement for one reason or another. We know that by the age of 65, only about 40% of women are still in work; they might have fallen out of work for various reasons. Those women will have been depending on getting not just the basic state pension, but probably pension credit and all the other passported benefits that were mentioned earlier. For these women, there is a big hole in their financial planning. We have heard much about the Government’s debt meaning that they cannot possibly afford to do right by the group of women concerned, but the effect will be on those women’s personal debt. They will have to borrow money or in many cases live in pretty dire circumstances if they do not get the pension when they were expecting to get it.
Dame Anne Begg
Indeed, and there will be many such examples.
Women who hoped that their campaign would move the Government feel very disappointed. It is true that those in one group may have to wait for 18 months rather than two years, but they are still extremely disappointed at the Government’s failure to recognise that what they propose will have a disproportionate effect on a number of women who no longer have time to plan adequately for the future.
Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
The hon. Lady is being very generous in giving way.
Age UK led the campaign that generated so much awareness of the issue among women and prompted them to raise their concerns, rightly, with their Members of Parliament. Age UK has welcomed what the Government have done, and has acknowledged that 90% of women will now work for only one extra year. I know that the fact that 10% may have to work for an extra 18 months is a challenge for them, but this is a solution for that 90%, and campaigners have welcomed it.
Dame Anne Begg
It is not a solution for the 90%, because they will still have to work for an extra year, on top of the extra years for which they were already having to wait for their state pensions. I believe that Age UK made that comment at the time of the Government’s announcement. Of course all Members agree that the position is better than it was before, but it is still not good enough. If my inbox is anything to go by, women who thought that their problems would be solved when they first heard the announcement have now made their calculations and discovered that for a large number the goalposts have not been moved at all, and that they have been moved by only a small amount for others.
In my view, it is a pity that the Government ever went down this route. They could have begun the accelerated rise in the pension age to 66 after the completion of the equalisation, between 2020 and 2022, rather than in the period before 2020. Obviously some wonk at the Treasury thought “What a good idea this is—it will save billions of pounds”, without recognising the anomaly that it would create and the difficulty that it would cause for this group of women. If Conservative Members want to know why their stock among women is falling rapidly, I will tell them. The fact that the Tories do not understand that decisions such as this suggest that they imagine women can somehow cope with reductions in their income has made women realise that many of them simply do not understand their lives or appreciate their problems.
The Government’s proposal may be better than what was in the original Bill, but if we vote for it tonight our decision will be final, because that will then be the timetable for the acceleration of women’s pension age to 66. Labour Members believe that certainty is necessary when it comes to pensions and that we must allow people to plan in advance, but whoever wins the next election, the last thing that any Government will be in a position to do is start fiddling with the system. What is fundamental to our argument is that a group of women have had no chance to plan, and I see no way in which any Government will be able to deal with that.
Harriett Baldwin
Is the Chair of the Select Committee confirming that a pledge to reverse the position, in line with the amendment, will not feature in the next Labour manifesto?
Dame Anne Begg
I may be Chair of the Select Committee, but I am afraid that I have no direct say in what should be in a Labour or any other manifesto. However, common sense tells us that whoever is in power after the next election—the Liberal Democrats might have a majority then, and might want to reverse the arrangement—voting against the amendment tonight will remove any chance of our ever finding a solution for this group of women. Events will have moved on, the timetable will have been set, and the pension age will have already changed by the time of the next election. That is what I mean about the lack of time in which to plan.
I hope that Members will accept that it is wrong that this anomaly has been created. I hope that those who have listened to the women in their constituencies will do the right thing tonight, and will vote for the Opposition amendment. That is what I shall be doing.
Fiona O’Donnell
I am genuinely grateful for the opportunity to support the amendment to which my hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont) spoke so eloquently. I welcome him to the Dispatch Box.
Many women in my constituency have contacted me about this issue, and none of those who have contacted me over the weekend, yesterday or today have expressed the view that the Government have gone far enough; they all support the amendment. I found it almost stomach-turning to hear the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott) congratulate herself on winning this concession from the Government. I do not think that even Labour Members should take credit for the achievement—lacking though it is in ambition—and I certainly do not think that the Liberal Democrats should do so. I wish that some of the honourable and good Liberal Democrat members of the Bill Committee mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon North (Malcolm Wicks) had had the guts and the principle to propose similar amendments when they had the opportunity. This feels a bit like Groundhog Day: it is the Health and Social Care Bill all over again.
Credit for the victory, such as it is, lies with all the women who have written to us, e-mailed us, telephoned us, and come to the House to make their case. They have said, “We will not sit back and let the Government do this to us.” Every evening as I leave this place, I see a touching reminder in the poster in the tube station showing those women, although I must confess that at first I considered it rather strange that there was also a man in the photograph, and wondered what that could be about. The fact is that this change will have an impact not just on the women concerned, but on the families for whom they have made plans. In the light of the rising cost of child care, they have asked themselves, “When can I help my sons and daughters to make better lives for themselves and their families?” I have to say that I think my sons and my daughter have similar plans for me, which I intend to resist for as long as possible.
The Government, particularly the Liberal Democrats, have not just broken their promise to women; they have broken their promise to their families as well. What an appalling lack of ambition from a Government! They have repeatedly called on Labour Members to say how we would pay for our proposals, so let me give them a couple of examples. Through the future jobs fund, they could take a million young people off the dole queue so that they were back at work and contributing to the system. They could scrap their top-down reorganisation of the NHS. They could ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government whether he has any money left in the pocket where he found the bin money. This is not about arithmetic; it is about political will. It is about the Government saying, “We believe that this is something worth doing, and it is something to which we will commit ourselves.”
Steve Webb
I am very grateful. We let a lot of things past, but will the hon. Lady clarify one point? She mentioned—I think I quote her accurately—getting a million young people back to work through the future jobs fund. Can she tell the House how many permanent jobs young people actually got when Labour ran the future jobs fund?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I think the hon. Lady knows—and the Minister certainly does—that the debate has nothing to do with the future jobs fund.
Fiona O’Donnell
Perhaps we can have that conversation another time. The point is that the Government do not have the political will to do something about this. In opening for the Opposition, my hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East mentioned that it is not just the Prime Minister of this Government who does not “get” women; the whole team do not “get” women.
At Prime Minister’s questions two weeks ago, I watched the Prime Minister’s Parliamentary Private Secretary gathering—almost dragging—women from their seats in order to create a female halo around the Prime Minister. He and his Government need to understand that the reason he is turning women off has nothing to do with stage management or presentation. The reason is the policies—such as the one we are discussing—which are adversely and unfairly impacting on women. I urge Liberal Democrat Members in particular, who have at times pushed the Government on this issue, to go the whole hog tonight and back the amendment.
When a Government consider an inequality impact assessment, that is not political correctness gone mad—it is not just something the previous Labour Government left for the current Government. Rather, it is about good government and good decision making, so that when a Government make a decision, they are in full possession of the facts about how that decision will impact on people.
Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD)
I would have some sympathy for the hon. Lady’s cause if she could explain where we might find the money to fund what she wants. [Interruption.] This is not about the future jobs fund. Will the hon. Lady tell us where the Labour party would find the cash?
Fiona O’Donnell
The hon. Gentleman should be extremely grateful to me for giving way, as he has not had the courtesy to be present for the entire debate. The fact is that when this Government want to find money, they can do so.
This decision betrays an appalling lack of ambition. I understand that the Government are not doing well in growing the economy, and they are probably a little disappointed in themselves—as, indeed, others are disappointed in them. Perhaps they have little faith in this country’s ability to recover and come out of the recession, with people back in work and contributing to the state. However, none of that serves to explain why this group of 500,000 women have to pay the price. Why do they have to pay for the Government’s plan to reduce debt?
For every one of those 500,000 women who will work for longer—300,000 of them for the full 18 months—there is a real story, such as that of a woman who works in the care service and who wrote to me. If she had known a few years ago that she was going to have to work extra time, she would have got out of the care sector while she could. She thinks she can struggle on until her retirement age as it stands now, but given the physical demands of her job, she does not think she can do another 18 months of lifting and handling.
Unfortunately, the hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) has left the Chamber. He talked about women retiring at 40 and 50 and living another 60 years of retirement. He is not talking about the women we are talking about. The women who need this money most are the women this Government are hurting most.
I urge Members to consider fairness, and to consider giving these women a fair chance. This is our one opportunity to stand up for those 500,000 women—the women who have been contacting us, appealing for justice. I hope we will all do the right thing tonight.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. A number of Members still want to speak, and the Minister also has to respond to the debate. I intend to call him at about 7.20 pm, and I ask Members to be brief so that everybody can contribute.
Kate Green
As so much that I agree with and endorse has been said, I am sure I can be very brief.
That we have had any concessions at all from the Government today is a tribute to the many women who have contacted Members on both sides of the House. We are disappointed, however, as this is a half-baked measure. It is half-baked in two respects. It is half-baked as it deals with only part of the problem and only some of the women who are adversely affected, when, as my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg) said, we had an opportunity to solve this problem and move forward. It is also half-baked because it does not offer a holistic response to the situation these women face. Rather, it addresses only the question of when we might grudgingly start to hand them their state pension, and it does not deal at all with the other elements of public policy that will be needed to support those women if they are not going to be eligible for a state pension until later.
Especially as we know that women’s private pension pots are significantly lower than men’s, it is regrettable that we are seeking to delay their access to the state pension before the new auto-enrolment in the National Employment Savings Trust has been in place for long enough for them to have had the opportunity to begin to build up a private pension pot. If these women are expected to remain in the workplace for longer, it is regrettable that there are no signs that the Government’s Work programme will be adapted to be better suited to helping older women find, or remain in, jobs. No thought has been given to how the Work programme will support those women.
I would be grateful if the Minister said what assessment has been made of the other financial benefits these women may have to rely on if they are not able to find paid work at the ages of 64, 65 or 66, and whether the cost the Government are talking about includes the additional level of those benefits. That is a particular concern because if women are using up their savings, they may have to draw further on the state when they reach retirement.
Other colleagues have pointed out that many older women provide child care for their children’s children. Will those children in future have to access paid-for child care that the Government will in due course be subsidising through the tax credit or universal credit?
Also, what is the health strategy in relation to the health needs of these women? We know that women in their 60s are more likely than men to suffer from functional disabilities. Some 40% of women at age 60 have limitations in activities of daily living, and 20% have severe limitations. I have not heard that the Minister has given any thought to that, or had any discussions with colleagues in the Department of Health to ensure that we are also securing better health for those women if we expect them to remain in paid work for longer.
The key additional points I wanted to make were about the absence of a holistic response from the Government. They have hastily introduced a half-baked measure—and a fairly vicious measure for the many hundreds of thousands of women who are still being put in a situation in which their retirement is substantially delayed without their having the resources to carry themselves through to that point. I urge the Minister to think again.
Lilian Greenwood
The Minister may feel that he has heard my speech before, as we discussed his Government’s plans to accelerate the rise in state pension age at some length in Committee. However, as he did not fully address the points I made then, I make no apology for making them again.
My constituent, Lorraine Smedley, e-mailed me on Friday asking if anything can be done even at this late stage. The answer must be yes. The Minister can still change his mind; he can accept our amendment that would ensure that no one would wait more than an extra 12 months to receive their pension. Also, if he chooses not to listen, Members on the Government Benches can still decide to join the Opposition in the Lobby tonight. I hope they will do so, although the contributions we have heard so far suggest that they will not.
Members who were not fortunate enough to serve on the Bill Committee will not know about my constituent Lorraine, so let me explain why she is so angry about the Government’s plans. Lorraine worked for the national health service for many years, but, having put aside some savings, she decided to take a part-time job as she moved towards her expected retirement date. She had worked out that she could supplement her part-time wage until her retirement. She told me:
“I thought I was close enough to my retirement age to know where I stood.”
Even with the Government’s welcome concession, Lorraine is still being asked to work for an extra 15 months, and she says she does not know what to do. Working those extra 15 months before she receives her state pension is not a prospect she relishes. Her job as a community care assistant is demanding, both physically and emotionally, and she is not sure that she will be able to continue; and with the cuts in public service spending and public sector jobs, she may not have a job anyway. The prospect of claiming benefits is anathema to Lorraine. She was determined to pay her own way her whole life, and having left school at 16 and paid into the state pension pot all those years she feels that she should not have to rely on benefits now.
Lorraine’s case highlights the two reasons why the Government’s proposals are unfair. First, they do not give women adequate notice of the change. The Minister has sprung these changes on women in their late 50s without giving them a realistic time scale in which to make preparations for the loss of pension payments that they have earned and expected over many years. In 1995, the then Government legislated for the equalisation of state pension ages. Women who were expecting to retire at 60 learned that they would have to wait until they were 65 to do so. They may not have liked it but they had many, many years to adjust. Yet that same group—those same women—who knew that they would have to work or wait for an extra five years for their pension, are now being asked to accept a further rise of more than a year with just five or seven years’ notice of the change.
The second reason why the Government have got it wrong is that the changes lead to one group being asked to bear an unfair share of the burden. According to the Department’s impact assessment, the proposals in the Bill affect about 5 million people—2.3 million men and 2.6 million women. About 4.5 million people will have their state pension age increased by a year or less, and their position is unaffected by the Minister’s last-minute amendment. An estimated 500,000 people, all of them women born between 6 October 1953 and 5 October 1954, will still have their pension age increased by more than a year. Some 300,000 women will experience an increase of exactly 18 months. No man will have to wait more than 12 months extra to receive his pension. How is that fair?
I accept that there has been a significant upward revision in the life expectancy of those reaching 65 over the next decade and that those benefiting from increased longevity should share in the costs. As we live longer, we need to pay more towards our income in retirement and/or work longer. The women like Lorraine who have written to me do not disagree—they understand that they may need to work longer—but they think that they should pay a fair share. The Minister did not explain in Committee so I hope he will explain now how it is fair that those 500,000 women have to pay a bigger share than anyone else, particularly given that we also know that they, as a group, are not well-equipped to bear a greater share of that burden.
As my hon. Friends have set out, these women are less financially secure than men and are much more likely to be reliant on the state pension. If they do have savings for their pension, those are likely to be much less than those of men. These women are likely to have taken time out of the labour market to care for children, thus affecting their contributions record and their salary level. They are likely to have worked part-time and to have been excluded from an occupational pension scheme until the 1990s. The Department’s own figures confirm this: the median pension savings of a 56-year-old woman are, as has been said, just £9,100, whereas the equivalent figure for men is £52,800, which is almost 600% higher.
Although, like Lorraine, I welcome the Minister’s amendment, it just does not go far enough. Women should not bear an unfair burden, which is why I support the Labour amendments. They would mean that 1.2 million fewer people would have to work longer and would ensure that nobody would be asked to work more than 12 months extra to receive their pension.
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
To be perfectly honest, it is disgraceful that the Government are not giving these women enough time to plan their retirement properly and it is clear that the changes that the Government are now proposing do not remedy the situation that they got themselves into with their initial proposals. It is wrong that women who have worked hard—doing all sorts of things, not necessarily paid work—for many years are now being denied their well-deserved pension for an extra 18 months with so little notice.
Nobody is denying the demands of longevity and the fact that we have to think ahead. However, we have to plan ahead properly and in a structured way. That is why in 2008 Labour legislated that the state pension age would become 66 by 2024 to 2026. That time scale was set out to give people 16 to 18 years in which to plan. As hon. Members will recall, the Turner report recommended a minimum of 15 years’ notice for any changes in the pension age and that is a very important point to note. Obviously the Government have brought that forward significantly, leaving many women with very little time in which to plan for a delayed retirement. Some 500,000 women will have a delay of up to 18 months before they get their pensions and about 330,000 women will have a delay of a full 18 months. The Government are determined to introduce this change, despite the fact that before the election we were given promises by both the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats that there would be no change before 2020.
The particular women that we are talking about are the most vulnerable. Those who depend most on the state pension are those who have the lowest incomes, those who have perhaps had the least opportunity to make contributions and those who have worked in the least well-paid jobs. As has been clearly expressed by my hon. Friends, women are far more reliant than men on the state pension because their pension pot is usually very small. Very often they have been limited in the opportunities they have had in this regard. They may have taken years out for child care, limited themselves in order to be able to pick up their children after school or limited themselves by geographical location. Often this group of people are enabling their own sons and daughters to work and have a decent income for their families by providing very valuable child care for the grandchildren. We often refer to these women as the “sandwich generation” because at the same time as they are looking after those grandchildren they are often coping with their own elderly parents.
Of course, these women are often more vulnerable to the cuts. An enormous number of cuts are being made in all sorts of jobs, in not only the public sector, but the private sector. The Government’s growth strategy is clearly failing, and often it is not just the lack of public procurements, but the lowering of income levels in the whole of a region or town which is making it harder and harder even for private businesses to flourish. Women are often doing more casual work or are working part-time, and as they are the ones who have often come latest to the jobs they are often the ones facing redundancy. It is often extremely difficult for older women to find new posts, particularly in areas with geographical limitations or not very good bus services, and if they need to be back to collect the grandchildren from school.
A number of these women are widows. My right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon North (Malcolm Wicks) has clearly explained the demographics and set out the number of men in certain groups who die young. Some 19% of men in certain social categories die before the age of 65, many of whom leave widows and they, like other groups, are not best placed to face the difficulties of trying to keep house and home together in difficult financial circumstances. If they do not receive their pension until a certain age, they will be losing not only the state pension, but pension credit and the various concessions and entitlements that are limited to people of state pension age.
If there were a genuine growth strategy, the argument about freeing up jobs would not be valid, because as more jobs are generated people who stay in work longer have more money to spend and so it is easier to create more jobs that younger people can take up. When there is no economic growth and the spiral is downwards, there is more bed-blocking—or job-blocking—whereby older people staying in work makes it more difficult for youngsters to get started.
So although Labour Members welcome the fact that the Government have made something of a concession, we are very disappointed that it is only a half-measure. In fact, it is nothing but window dressing. It is the sort of Christmas present that is wrapping with absolutely nothing inside—an empty cardboard box with some paper round it. The correspondence that I have received indicates to me that my constituents are not fooled by it and are worried that they will still be facing much of the same difficulty as they were with the original proposals.
I shall support the amendments tabled by those on my Front Bench to ensure that we try to give the maximum number of women the maximum amount of benefit that we can, rather than the Government amendments, which are, quite frankly, laughable. They are a disgrace because they do not address the main thrust of the problem and they leave a lot of women with a large gap and very little time in which to work out how to deal with it.
Sheila Gilmore
The concession made by the Government is, of course, a welcome one. The fact that we are saying that it is not enough does not mean that it is not welcome, but I do ask why they have taken so long to arrive at this point. On Second Reading, back in June, not a single Government Back Bencher spoke in favour of the Government’s proposals on the acceleration in women’s pension age. They were clearly unhappy but were prevailed on at the time, it would appear, to vote for Second Reading by being told that some form of transitional arrangement would be forthcoming.
Those of us who were privileged to serve in Committee asked for the transitional arrangements so that we could debate and scrutinise them, which is what a Committee ought to be about, but we were told that they were not ready because they would be very complicated. “By the way,” said the Minister, “Where are your transitional proposals? Why have you not come up with any?” As a new Member, I thought that perhaps it was commonplace for the Opposition to be expected to come up with proposals for the Government because they have not thought them up yet—
Sheila Gilmore
We had amendments. We tabled amendments that were not a million miles away from those that we are proposing today, because we felt that, in the circumstances, a proposal to cap the period of time for which women would have to endure this change was the best thing to do. Our amendments were not supported by either Government party in Committee, but we had clearly made proposals that ranked as transitional, because—lo and behold—four days before this final chance to debate the subject in the House, a proposal was made. It is not some complex transitional arrangement that would take civil servants hours, weeks or months to work out but fairly straightforward and involves capping the period of time. In my view, that proposal could have been made in Committee without any difficulty and it could also have been made at any time over the months that have passed since the Committee stage ended in July.
I suspect that one of the main reasons this rabbit has apparently been pulled out of the hat at the last minute is to prevent any great campaign being restarted for further change and to prevent people asking for more. Like Oliver—most of us nowadays, unlike the cruel people in Victorian workhouses, think that Oliver was right to ask for more—the women who have contacted my colleagues and me over the past few days are still asking for more because they feel that the Government’s proposals remain unfair. They have alleviated the proposals for one group of women but not for all those who are affected and, in my view, those women are right to ask for more.
The Government have been extremely calculating. By not making their announcement until almost as late as possible while still making it in any way credible, they calculated that they would foreshorten the possibility that their Back Benchers might again be contacted by many of their constituents who would argue that the proposals are still not enough. The fact that they have given the shortest amount of time to this very successful campaign is clearly tactical.
In this debate, we always come back to the money question—it happened repeatedly in Committee and in many interventions on Opposition Members today. We are asked where we will get the money and told to come up with a specific statement about where we will find it. That happens not just as regards this proposal but day in, day out—[Interruption.] It is not unreasonable for us to say that we would not start from here. That is not unreasonable because we have a very different view about the choices and the fairness arguments that it is right to make and about how to progress our public finances over the next period.
Another argument that often comes up states that one cannot borrow one’s way out of a crisis or out of debt. It seems we cannot cut our way out of a deficit either, or out of more debt, because public borrowing, far from having come down in the past year and a half, is rising. We would not start from here because our entire economic strategy would be different. Our view—as we said a year and a half ago and as it remains—is that to attempt to reduce the deficit within this Parliament was reckless, that it would not be successful and that it would risk higher unemployment and the stagnation of the economy. That is what is happening. If the economy continues to stagnate, tax revenues will fall with fewer people in work and fewer businesses thriving. Falling tax revenues are a big reason why we have a deficit in the first place. This is not simply about Government spending, as is sometimes suggested.
Tax revenues will fall and benefits payments and other outgoings will rise, and those are very important considerations. In saying that we would not start from here, it is perfectly reasonable for us to make it clear that we would not want to be in the position that the Government seem determined to drive us into.
Jim Shannon
Under the Labour proposals for auto-enrolment for pensions, protection was given, but under the coalition Government’s proposals the same protection is not given as there are conditions and people fall outside them. Does the hon. Lady think that that is another example of the difference between the two sides? Labour gives the option of protection and the coalition does not.
Sheila Gilmore
That certainly is such an example. If we are to give people the opportunity of saving for their pensions into the future, it is important that we take seriously the proposals for auto-enrolment and NEST and build them up in a way to which everybody should give their full support. Although I am sure that the Government have not officially said that they are not giving them their full support, I was struck as I read an article in The Sunday Times a week last Sunday by a suggestion that the Government might be backing off on the speed of the introduction of auto-enrolment. That might have been a piece of kite-flying, as I gather it relates to a piece of work that is being done internally for the Government, which will not be published and which we cannot see, about how to make yet more savings and attempt to grow the economy, but nevertheless that story reached the newspapers. I am sure the Minister will tell us that we have nothing to fear when we reach the relevant part of the debate.
We are constantly asked where we would find the money and, interestingly, despite the comments that Government Members made from a sedentary position a few moments ago, when my hon. Friends the Members for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont) and for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell) made suggestions, they were pooh-poohed.
Brandon Lewis
Does the hon. Lady accept that one reason why people were incredulous about some of the suggestions made earlier is that the £11 billion required by Labour is equivalent to the whole budget for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and roughly double that of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport?
Sheila Gilmore
We are talking about a spending period over 10 years, so it is not equivalent to the budget in a given year. Even in those terms, we are always making choices, and I will not accept lessons from a party with many members who are publicly saying that, as quickly as possible, they want to reduce or take away the 50% tax rate. That is something they are keen to do and that is their choice. They can make the case for it, but if they bring that proposal forward, I for one will certainly oppose it. That is another way of deciding how money is going to be spent and how money is going to be collected—and that is only one example.
In an earlier intervention, I mentioned the pension tax relief system, which gives a huge amount of money to people who already have a lot of money. If someone wants to save £100 into their pension pot and they are on 20% tax, in order to get £200 tax relief they have to find £800 from their pocket, but if someone is on 50% tax, they have to find only half the amount they want to save. That is unfair; it is a subsidy to those who already have a lot of income and assets. If at the end of this decade we are finding it difficult to make ends meet and we cannot help the group of women we are talking about, perhaps we should be thinking about that system.
The women who are affected by the measure will be making exactly those comparisons. They know that choices are made in politics and that choices are made by Governments, and they know that it is not impossible for the Government to change their mind on this proposal. They did not campaign for it during the election; indeed one of my hon. Friends has suggested that it was probably drawn up in a great hurry and seemed like a good wheeze at the time, but it puts a particular burden on a group of women many of whom cannot easily afford the changes. I want to emphasise, as several of my colleagues have done, that it should not be assumed that these women have a job and can just go on doing that job, or that they will still be in that job in three, four or five years’ time.
Fiona O’Donnell
Does my hon. Friend agree that those 500,000 women will also be asking, “Why us? Why not the banks or the bankers?” Why are they being made to pay? This is not just a question of economics but a question of right and wrong—and this is clearly wrong.
Sheila Gilmore
I could not have put it better myself.
Another question that the Minister has to answer is whether the Government, in looking for the savings they plan to make by going down this road, have put into the mix the additional costs that might arise in relation to some of these women, some of whom will not be able to work and might claim benefits. Some might claim jobseeker’s allowance for a period and others might claim employment and support allowance if they are in ill health, although some of them will find that those benefits are cut off very quickly in certain circumstances because of other Government proposals. They will then be thrown back to spending any savings they may have made towards retirement.
A woman in her 50s or early 60s who finds herself in that position may not be able to claim benefit for very long. If she has a partner or has savings of any sort she will not be eligible for the means-tested benefits that come in after six months in the case of JSA and that, under Government proposals, will be lost after a year even for people who are unfit to work and are in a work-related activity group. They will find themselves eating up—literally in some cases—their savings to make it through to their postponed retirement date. Of course, at that stage, those women will no doubt have to claim additional top-ups to help their financial situation. I would like to be satisfied that the Government have taken those costs into account. The women themselves will have to meet extra costs, and so will the Government. The proposal is ill-thought-out and there has been a lot of time to rethink it. Like all the women who have been campaigning on this, I am extremely disappointed that the Government are not prepared to support our amendment tonight.
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
This is an incredibly important stage of the Bill, about which I have received hundreds of e-mails. I am sure that Members of the House from across the political divide have received e-mails specifically concerning women aged 58 and 56. We have had a number of discussions about this matter, including a Westminster Hall debate at which the Minister was present.
I know that I may sound very boring if I repeat again the concerns of those women and of Opposition Members about why this particular provision should not go through. Everyone accepts that the state pension age needs to rise in order to pay for a more generous basic state pension. This principle underpinned Labour’s Pensions Act 2007, which continued the 1995 timetable for equalising women’s state pension age with men’s by increasing it to 65 by 2020, and then legislated to increase both SPAs to 66 by 2027, to 67 by 2036 and to 68 by 2046. That was agreed and there was cross-party consensus on that.
The coalition agreement stated:
“The parties agree to....hold a review to set the date at which the state pension age starts to rise to 66, although it will not be sooner than 2016 for man and 2020 for women.”
However, the Bill proposes an acceleration in the equalisation for women by 2018 and increases both men’s and women’s state pension age to 66 by 2020. This will hit women aged between 56 and 58 particularly hard, as they will have very little time to prepare or amend their existing plans. As has been pointed out by my colleagues countless times, those women have worked very hard in their lives but often for not very high pay, so they will not be getting very generous pensions in any event, yet they are going to be hit even harder.
The proposal will affect 4.9 million people—2.6 million women and 2.3 million men. Some 500,000 women born between 6 October 1953 and 5 March 1955 will have their state pension age delayed by more than a year, and 300,000 women born between 6 December 1953 and 5 April 1954 will have theirs delayed by 18 months exactly. For the 300,000 women facing an 18-month delay, the loss of income will be around £7,500; for those in receipt of pension credit, the figure will be closer to £11,000. That sudden and dramatic change in women’s expectations regarding their state pension age and retirement income comes with just five to seven years’ notice, which simply is not long enough for them to make adequate alternative arrangements in their retirement planning.
Women are already at a disadvantage in terms of pension provision. The median pension saving of a 56-year-old woman is just £9,100, whereas the equivalent figure for men is £52,800—almost 600% higher. It is not fair to speed up the equalisation timetable because it will hurt women disproportionately, especially those aged between 56 and 58. I know that we hear about the financial constraints, but if the Government can find £3 billion for the completely unnecessary reorganisation of the national health service, which nobody wants—we have not heard any practitioners in the medical field say that those provisions are right—are they really saying that they cannot find a bit of money for women who have worked hard for so long in their lives? The proposal is measly penny-pinching. The Government are hurting the people who are already the poorest in our society and hitting them even harder. If money can be found for the wasteful reorganisation of the NHS, I am sure money can be found for the provision to be deleted.
I urge the Minister to reconsider this aspect of the Bill and think about those women, who have worked hard all their lives. He should think for once about ordinary working people who are looking forward to some kind of pension, although they will retire later than they thought they would, and he should give them time to prepare for their pensions.
Steve Webb
It is a pleasure to support Government amendments 13 and 14 and to ask the House to reject amendment 1.
I welcome the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont) to his new role. With due deference to the good people of Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East, I hope he will forgive me if henceforth I refer to him as the hon. Member for Cumbernauld—I hope they will not take offence at that. As he knows, his predecessor, the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), to whom he referred in his speech, enjoyed a meteoric rise by shadowing me for 18 months. I hope to do the same for his career.
Before I move on to the amendments, I want to place on record my appreciation of one of the Department’s officials, Evelyn Arnold, who has worked for the Department for 36 years. I know that the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) will have enjoyed working alongside her as well. She is stepping down from a legendary career. It is not often that we pay tribute on the record to the officials who make us sound far better informed than we otherwise would, so I would like to do that formally today.
We have heard £1 billion described today as “window dressing”, “a bit of money” and “penny pinching”. That summarises the difference between opposition and government. It reminds us how we came to find ourselves borrowing £150 billion a year when £11 billion, which is the cost of amendment 1, is regarded as small change and not worth worrying too much about. When pressed about where the £11 billion would come from, the Opposition said, in effect, “We’ll find it at some point,” but there was no specific answer.
It was revealing that the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) said, “We keep being asked this question.” They keep being asked the question because they keep making unfunded promises. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor pointed out that last week’s Opposition amendment cost £20 billion. Today’s would cost another £11 billion and, as the man once said, “Soon you’re talking about serious money.”
The Government amendments are, as the Chair of the Select Committee graciously said, a huge achievement, which is to say that at a time when the public finances are, if anything—because of the global economic situation—under even more pressure than they were at the time of Second Reading back in June, to identify £1 billion is an important sign of the Government’s commitment to fairness in pension reform.
Sheila Gilmore
The Minister wants to make a great deal, and some of his supporters made a great deal, of having extracted that sum from the Treasury, but is he not again mistaking the position? He starts talking about the fact that we are apparently in a very difficult situation, worse than a year ago, and then says, “And we’ve managed to find a billion,” but this is a long-term planning issue—it is not about what has happened in the past year.
Steve Webb
I notice that the hon. Lady dismisses the odd billion here or there again as of no great consequence. We have to make these decisions in the context of the real world. That is the difference between government and opposition. The hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell), who spoke in the debate, said that it would take guts—that was the expression she used—to support an unfunded £11 billion promise, which the Opposition know they will never have to fund and would not implement if in government. That is a very odd definition of “guts”.
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
Is the Minister suggesting that the coalition agreement, which is fundamentally different from what is proposed in the Bill, was not made in the real world? That is what some of us suspect, but is he confirming it?
Steve Webb
As the hon. Lady knows, the coalition agreement referred to the possibility of raising the state pension age for men from 2016 and for women from 2020. Obviously, what we have done since that coalition agreement was produced is sought expert legal advice. We were advised that delaying the equalisation between men and women would have been illegal under European law. That comes to the heart of one of the questions that has rightly been asked, which is, why do the changes affect women more than men? The reason is that they are two separate changes brought together.
The first is the more rapid equalisation, and the second is the equal treatment of men and women from 65 to 66. The equal treatment of men and women from 65 to 66, not surprisingly, affects men and women equally, so the thing that affects women more is equalisation. That is what the Pensions Act 1995 does. It leaves men’s pension age at 65 and equalises women’s pension age, raising it from 60 to 65. Lo and behold, that Bill affected only women, because equalising the pension age so that women get the pension at the same age as men rather than earlier affects women. Not surprisingly, a change that was happening in any case, which we have speeded up and which affects only women, added to a change that affects men and women equally, produces the expected result.
Hywel Williams
The Minister is making a reasonable case, as ever. I am rather more interested in his justification for the acceleration of the change. I hope that he will come to that shortly.
Steve Webb
Let me address that directly. What is striking as soon as one looks at the evidence on longevity is just how far behind the curve we are. When the male state pension age was set at 65, it was not so much a case of Lord Hutton writing reports on pensions as a case of Len Hutton striding out at the Oval. That was the era that we were talking about. In that almost 100 years, there have been incredible increases in life expectancy, yet the male state pension age will still be 65 for another seven years. That shows how far behind the curve we are.
The views of Lord Turner were cited by the hon. Member for Cumbernauld and by others, with some suggestion that we are breaching the Turner consensus. However, Lord Turner has breached the Turner consensus, if I may say so. He said in a news interview a couple of years ago, and the world has moved on even since then:
“If I was redoing my report I would be more radical, arguing for an even faster increase in the state pension age.”
That is exactly what we are doing, in line with the Turner consensus.
Dr Whiteford
Does the Minister accept that although longevity has increased, healthy working life has not kept pace with longevity, and that there is a serious issue, especially for the particular group of women under discussion, many of whom will not be in the best of health in their late 50s and early 60s? That is one of the reasons why shifting the goalposts twice for this group of women is having such a disproportionate impact.
Steve Webb
The issue of health is certainly important. Almost all the figures that have been quoted through the debate assume that the women whose pension age is being delayed will have no money. If, as the hon. Lady rightly says, they are unable to work because of ill health and the household has no other resources, they will get a significant amount of that money through employment and support allowance and other benefits.
Clearly, there are differences between individual groups and, as the hon. Lady and the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) pointed out, between different parts of the country, but if we look at England, Wales and Scotland, for example, in terms of life expectancy at 65, in England for men since 1981 life expectancy has increased by seven years. In Wales for men it has increased by seven years, and in Scotland for men it has increased by seven years. For women, each of those figures is six years, respectively. So although there are differences, there have been substantial increases across the board.
Yes, there is big variation. I accept that point, but there have been increases across the board and we cannot say that because they have not happened for every individual in every part of the country and in every social group, we will do nothing. That is what got us into the present mess in the first place.
Kate Green
I note that the Minister acknowledges that for some women with no other source of income, instead of receiving their state pension they may for a time continue to receive out-of-work benefits. Can he address two points in relation to that? First, what do the Government estimate will be the cost of those women receiving such benefits for an extended period? Secondly, does he not understand that for women who are at that age and stage in their life, being expected to claim something called jobseeker’s allowance is a tremendous insult or a tremendous concern because they know that they are not genuinely jobseekers? The labour market does not want or need them.
Steve Webb
On the hon. Lady’s first point, we have of course taken account of the fact that there will be some women, and indeed some men, for whom the changes mean that instead of receiving a retirement pension, they receive jobseeker’s allowance, employment and support allowance or another benefit. To give her an order of magnitude on that, without making allowance for that, the Bill would have saved around £33 billion. Taking account of that, we estimate a saving of around £30 billion, so getting on for 10% of the savings is lost through paying other benefits. That is entirely right and proper. In a way, her observation is backward-looking rather than forward-looking. We are moving to a world in which the idea of early retirement and drawing a pension at 60 years old or below, as in some public service schemes, is simply from another era, and the idea that someone should seek work, particularly if they are able-bodied, into their 60s is going to become entirely normal. The idea that it is somehow offensive to say that someone should look for work in their 60s is an idea from a bygone era; it is not the world that we are moving to.
Malcolm Wicks
I am interested in the arithmetic that the Minister has just presented on how his savings have been adjusted, because some people will not be in work. Given that many people in the year or two before retirement are not in work, will he publish the detailed figures so that the House can scrutinise them?
Steve Webb
As a former Minister, the right hon. Gentleman will know that the figures were published with the Bill in May: they are from the impact assessment.
We have had a number of contributions, and in the short time available to me I shall refer to some of the points that have been made. As I have said, the hon. Member for Cumbernauld stated that his £11 billion should be spent and regarded it as a small sum, because he took the annual equivalent, divided that by the national debt and came up with a small fraction, as though somehow one can make £11 billion disappear. Well, the Labour party did make £11 billion disappear regularly, so he is keeping up that tradition, I suppose.
My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott) asked where state pension reform fits into the measures before us, and I am pleased to tell her that we remain entirely committed to such reform, but one irony of all this is that the very group of women whom we are most concerned about, and whom we have heard most about in this debate, are probably the single group who will most benefit from our ideas on state pension reform.
In particular, many women who spent time bringing up children, before either home responsibilities protection came in or the state second pension introduced crediting, would benefit substantially from such reform. So, yes, their pension age will rise, but as our reforms take hold such women will benefit substantially, and my long-term commitment to pensions justice for women will be delivered. That is certainly my goal.
The right hon. Member for Croydon North (Malcolm Wicks) made the point that he has made before about differences in life expectancy and about people who leave school earlier, but his proposal for starting the national insurance clock running at different ages would create different anomalies. He says that somebody who leaves school and goes into a manual job could get their pension earlier, but someone who leaves school and goes to a desk job would also get their pension earlier, and people would then say, “Is that fair?” There are anomalies whichever way we do it.
The right hon. Gentleman did, however, raise the issue of people in the lowest socio-economic groups, but I remind him that over a 20-year period to 2002 men in the routine class, the lowest—as it were—socio-economic group, saw life expectancy at 65 years old increase by 2.5 years, and, given that the Bill increases the state pension age for men by only one year, the improvement in life expectancy for men, even in the group whom he is most concerned about, is running ahead of our proposed increase in the state pension age.
I repeat to the right hon. Gentleman that his points about the differences between groups are an argument for doing nothing. He supported the Pensions Act 2007, which will raise the state pension age to 68 years old, and we need to address health and occupational inequalities, rather than do nothing while we wait. That is the Opposition’s counsel—let us wait another decade—but the trouble is that we have already waited a century to move the state pensions ages, so how long is long enough?
My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) quite properly raised the important issue of notifying people of any changes, so I shall share with the House our plans. I very much welcome the fact that, subject to the House approving the Bill tonight and their lordships approving it in due course, we will be able to write directly to those affected to tell them exactly how they stand, thereby ending a period of uncertainty.
We will write to those women born between April and December 1953, just over 250,000 of them, early in the new year; to those born between December 1953 and April 1954, another 250,000 people, in February; and to another 250,000, born between April 1954 and April 1955, in March. The last group covers all women who would have been affected by the original equalisation timetable.
Fiona O’Donnell
Will the Minister also advise those women of their right to employment and support allowance? Will he confirm that, if they claim ESA, are turned down, wait seven months—as some have in my constituency—for an appeal, and that period crosses over their entitlement date to the state pension, their appeal will still be heard and any benefits backdated?
Steve Webb
Perhaps the hon. Lady does not understand what I am saying. I am talking about people who will reach state pension age in seven or eight years’ time, so I am not sure that writing a letter, stating, “In the event you are on a certain benefit in seven or eight years’ time, and the delay in tribunals in such and such,” is germane to my point.
The Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee, the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), in a characteristically balanced contribution—[Interruption]—I spotted the balance even if nobody else did. She described the changes we are making today as a huge achievement, then said, “Well why don’t we go the whole hog,” but there are 11.1 billion reasons why we are not going to go the whole hog, and I am sure she understands that point.
The hon. Member for Edinburgh East said, “Well, I wouldn’t start from here”—and so say all of us. I do not think that any one of us would have chosen to inherit an annual deficit of £150 billion that had to be cleared up—[Interruption.] Members say from a sedentary position, “This isn’t about the deficit,” but a sequence of deficits creates a debt, which will be £1.4 trillion at the end of this Parliament, and that is both a capital sum and the interest that our children and grandchildren will have to pay, so we should take responsibility for it and tackle it.
The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) said that the Work programme does not do anything for older women, but its beauty is that providers do not get paid unless they tailor what they do to the individual in front of them. For example, we find that the biggest barrier for many potential older workers is IT skills; they are entirely job-ready but not necessarily up to speed with technology. So, if that is the barrier, the Work programme provider does not need to come to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for approval, as in the old days, asking whether it is on a departmental checklist; they just get on with it, help the person obtain the skills and are rewarded only if they get that individual a job.
Kate Green
I understand how the Work programme proposes to reward providers, but does the Minister not accept that older women are particularly disadvantaged when seeking to access the labour market? Can he tell us, therefore, whether there will be an incentive payment to such providers in dealing with those older women?
Steve Webb
The incentive is clear: the providers do not get any money at all unless they help someone into work.
The hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) mentioned grandparents: women in the age group under discussion who by taking care of grandchildren enable their sons and daughters to work. That is an important point, and that is why I was pleased to carry through in office proposals that had previously been brought forward on national insurance credits for grandparents—when their daughters are not using them—to ensure that their state pension rights do not suffer.
The hon. Member for Edinburgh East asked why we did not do all that earlier and referred to Second Reading, but I remind her that in that debate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that the basic principle of the Bill is right—that we move to equality sooner and to aged 66 in 2020. We have been entirely consistent with what he said, but he also said that we need to make sure that the transition is fair and that those most adversely affected are helped. That is exactly what we deliver on today with the amendments.
We have identified, notwithstanding the difficult fiscal position, £1.1 billion to ensure that half a million people face a shorter increase in their pension age, and that a quarter of a million women who could have faced up to 24 months will now face a maximum of 18 months. It is worth keeping in context the fact that nine out of 10 people affected by the Bill will see an increase of one year or less in their state pension age.
The hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi), who spoke last, said, “Well, it’s only a bit of money,” and, “It’s penny pinching,” and all I can say is that many people think that £1.1 billion is a lot of money. I know that it is a naïve observation, but I am in that category as well.
It was important to allocate to this issue a large amount of time for debate today, but we have simply had a repeat of what we heard in Committee: “Find £10 billion or £11 billion—it’ll come from somewhere, it’s not really a lot of money.” From the Government, however, we have seen a serious balance struck between introducing the fiscal responsibility that was all too often lacking under the previous Government and listening and responding to the needs of those most affected by the Bill—and I commend our amendments to the House.
Gregg McClymont
This been a very important debate. I thank the Minister for his reply, but he has not satisfactorily answered the question repeatedly asked by Labour Members, which is fairly straightforward. Why are these 500,000 women paying a disproportionate price? Why are they having disproportionately to carry the burden?
Our amendments, if accepted, would mean that not one of the half a million women affected by this Bill would have to wait more than an extra year for their state pension, and, importantly, that they would have at least nine years’ notice of the rise in their state pension age. At the same time, the state pension age of 66 for men and women would be brought forward to 2022. That would be a fair package, and it would keep the Government to the promise made in the coalition agreement. I should like to withdraw amendment 1 and test the will of the House on amendment 3.
Amendment, by leave withdrawn.
Amendment proposed: 3, page 1, line 8, leave out subsection (4).—(Gregg McClymont.)
Question put, That the amendment be made.
‘6th January 1954 to 5th February 1954 | 6th May 2019 |
6th February 1954 to 5th March 1954 | 6th July 2019 |
6th March 1954 to 5th April 1954 | 6th September 2019 |
6th April 1954 to 5th May 1954 | 6th November 2019 |
6th May 1954 to 5th June 1954 | 6th January 2020 |
6th June 1954 to 5th July 1954 | 6th March 2020 |
6th July 1954 to 5th August 1954 | 6th May 2020 |
6th August 1954 to 5th September 1954 | 6th July 2020 |
6th September 1954 to 5th October 1954 | 6th September 2020”’. |
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 1—Obligation to inform scheme members about provider and product options—
‘Providers of Qualifying Schemes under section 16 of the Pensions Act 2008 (c.30) must, when informing members of their own range of annuity and similar products, explain clearly that alternative and more suitable options from other providers may be available.’.
New clause 9—Duty to establish a review into transfers into the National Employment Savings Trust (NEST)—
‘Within two years of the passing of this Act the Secretary of State shall establish a review into allowing transfers into the National Employment Savings Trust (NEST).’.
New clause 10—Duty to review any order on contribution limits in the National Employment Savings Trust—
‘In section 70 of the 2008 Act (Contribution Limits) at the end of subsection (1) insert—
‘(1A) Any order under this section shall be reviewed by the Secretary of State within two years of the Pension Scheme being opened to members.’.
Amendment 18, in clause 6, page 6, line 37, leave out ‘three’ and insert ‘one’.
Amendment 19, in clause 8, page 8, line 1, at beginning insert ‘Subject to subsection (2A),’.
Amendment 20, page 8, line 4, at end insert—
‘(2A) An order made under subsection (2) must not increase the amount in section 3(1)(c) by more than—
(a) the general level of earning; or
(b) in percentage terms by more than the percentage increase in the Lower Earnings Limit for national insurance purposes.’.
Government amendments 15 and 16.
Steve Webb
This is a broad group of proposals relating to private pensions. I shall speak in support of Government new clause 2 and Government amendments 15 and 16. As we have a relatively short time to discuss these issues I will also deal with the other amendments in the group, and do not anticipate making a further contribution to the debate.
Government new clause 2 deals with charges. Obviously, charges are important, as I am sure the whole House will agree, because money that goes on charges does not turn into pensions. The Government are therefore keen to ensure that charges are at a reasonable level and are transparent. For example, following on from the policies of the previous Government, we have gone ahead with the introduction of the National Employment Savings Trust, which will be a low-cost provider designed to ensure that charges across the market are brought down. There is evidence that new entrants to the market and existing providers are already looking at charges significantly lower than many people have experienced on their pensions in the past.
In Committee, concerns were raised about whether the Government should be capping charges. As the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), who is responding for the Opposition, is well aware, the Government do have powers to cap certain pension scheme charges. In considering this issue, we became aware of the anomaly that we do not have that power in relation to people who are no longer active members of pension schemes but who are deferred members, and in particular deferred members of qualifying schemes for auto-enrolment. If we want to cap charges—I will come back to that issue in a second—we do not currently have the power in primary legislation to cap them for deferred members of qualifying schemes for auto-enrolment. The purpose of Government new clause 2 is to give us that power, so that if we want to impose charge caps, we can do so systematically and without unintended omissions.
Our thinking on charge caps is that in general, we do not believe there will be a problem with charges. Particularly in the early years of auto-enrolment, it will be the very largest firms that come into the system. They will have the resources and time to shop around, they will be able to strike good deals, and they will have the National Employment Savings Trust available to them. We expect that for big and medium-sized firms, relatively low charges will be the norm.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
Why have the Government decided to raise the level at which auto-enrolment will come in? By their own figures, that will affect about 600,000 people, mainly women.
Steve Webb
I will come on to that, because Opposition amendments 19 and 20 relate to it. As I said in my introduction, I shall deal with all the amendments in this group, so if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me I will explain our thinking on that matter later.
Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)
The Minister has referred to the transparency of the current charges in the pensions industry, yet in his evidence to the Work and Pensions Committee, the gentleman who advised the Government on the matter—I regret that I have forgotten his name—made the point, which I am sure everybody in the House would endorse, that existing pensions provision is extremely cloudy. It is extremely difficult to know what the charges are, because the wording is imponderable in many instances. Why is the Minister so sanguine about what will happen in future? It certainly has not happened in the past, and it certainly is not happening now.
Steve Webb
There are two significant differences between past and future provision. First, we have established NEST, which did not exist before. It has been set up as a low-cost provider, so we have guaranteed that there is such a provider out there, particularly for small firms, which are the least likely to shop around. Secondly, there is a saying that pensions are not bought, they are sold. In other words, individuals tend not to go out and look for a pension but instead have one sold to them. In a world of auto-enrolment, the opposite is the case. Employers have a legal duty to select a provider, and that makes providers’ costs much lower. Rather than having to bear the huge costs of individual salespeople going out and selling to individual policyholders, employers will instead seek out providers. The costs of the whole process will be much lower, so that will be a significant step in the right direction.
Steve Webb
I will not, if the hon. Lady will forgive me, because I am going to try to cover about six topics in not very much time, so as to give everyone else a chance to respond.
Government new clause 2 has been tabled in response to our discussions in Committee, and will give the Government a power that I think previous Governments either thought they had or would have wanted to have. It is the power to cap charges for deferred members of qualifying auto-enrolment schemes. I think that is probably a relatively uncontentious power. Were we to bring it into force, that would clearly be the subject of separate debates and discussion in the House, but I hope the House will be happy that the Government should have that power.
Government amendments 15 and 16 are technical amendments to clause 14, dealing with what would otherwise have been a problem in section 30 of the Pensions Act 2008. Although that section currently allows employers to use a defined benefit, hybrid or money purchase scheme as an alternative scheme, it does not allow them to use a workplace personal pension scheme. Clause 14 corrects that omission, but there is a risk that an individual might be automatically enrolled into a personal pension scheme, and then required to pay contributions immediately for up to four previous years. The amendments protect individuals from that scenario. They correct what we believe to be an error in previous legislation. I hope that the House will find my explanation helpful, although I can go into far greater detail if threatened.
I welcome new clause 1, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin), who serves on the Work and Pensions Committee. I believe that, in a rather intimidating fashion, it has been signed by pretty much all the Committee’s members, so I think I have to give it a fair wind. It is about what is known in jargon as the “open market option”—in other words, the fact that people often forget that when they save for a pension, they are doing two things. First, they are building up a pot of money—the accumulation stage—and then they are turning it into a pension, which is the “decumulation” stage. Those are two entirely separate processes.
All too often, someone can save with provider A—I will not use the name of a company—and think that they have to take their pension from provider A, which they do not. Broadly speaking, as a rule of thumb, it is estimated that the market can be divided into thirds. Roughly a third of people shop around and go somewhere else, a third of people shop around and stay with their original provider, and a third of people do not shop around at all. There is clearly a danger that at the crucial point when somebody sets their income for the rest of their life, they may not be getting the best value. The open market option reminds people that they can shop around, and indeed prompts them to do so. However, as I have just indicated, take-up of that option is not as high as we would wish, or as I believe the insurance industry would increasingly wish, so we need to do more.
I take new clause 1 as a probing amendment, and it is important in getting the issue on the table. As drafted, it would have one or two problems. It would bring some schemes within its scope that should not be, such as final salary schemes. Those are qualifying schemes for auto-enrolment, but we do not want to give final salary scheme providers a duty to tell people about their right to buy an annuity. That would not be appropriate. The new clause also duplicates some existing duties. For example, the Occupational Pension Schemes (Disclosure of Information) Regulations 1996, as I am sure my hon. Friend is well aware, state that when members have the opportunity to select an annuity, they must be informed of their right to buy one on the open market. They must also be advised that there are different types of annuities available, which may have different features and different payment rates. There are also 1987 regulations that relate to contract-based business. So there are rules about the open market option, but I think we would all agree that they are not working as well as they should. I am sure that is the point of my hon. Friend’s new clause.
The Government welcome the opportunity to discuss the open market option. We believe that it is critical for consumers to think about the shape of annuity that is most appropriate to their circumstances and compare rates across providers. There are comparison websites available, which is a helpful development, but people have to know about them to look at them. They have to consider the option in order to know what questions to ask.
I am pleased to say that, in an example of joined-up government, we are working closely with our colleagues at the Treasury on the matter. I regularly meet my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary, who leads on it, to discuss the open market option, and we have a joint working group examining that very issue. My hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire will be pleased to know that earlier this year, we asked that working group to consider what is called a default open market option arrangement—in other words, whether we could make shopping around the default, so that people would have to make an active choice to stay with their current provider. There are practical issues to consider, such as what would happen to someone who failed to shop around, whether there should be a point at which their own provider paid them a pension, and what information people should have. However, the principle is attractive, and certainly my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary is keen to go as far as we can.
Progress has already been made. One might say that a working group is often the last refuge of a scoundrel—not the Financial Secretary, I should add; I meant myself. However, this is a working group with teeth. To give one example, the Association of British Insurers, which has engaged actively with us on the matter, has already said that its members will cease sending out to people, with the letter saying that they can get an annuity, the application form from their own provider. They will stop saying, “You can shop around, but here in the same envelope is a form to get an annuity from us.” Instead, a person will actively have to say, “I want my annuity from you; give me a form.” That is a small step in the right direction, but I believe we need to go further.
I will be pleased to hear the arguments and concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire, but we are certainly seized of the importance of this issue. We do not believe the new clause is quite the way to deliver what is needed, but the Government very much welcome it, and the spirit of what she is trying to achieve.
Glenda Jackson
I am extremely grateful that the Minister welcomes new clause 1, but with all due respect, he spoke earlier of pensions being not bought, but sold. He is now talking about the buyer being in the driving seat, but as we know full well, and as we see in the papers every day in relation to energy prices, people do not seem to have the capacity to shop around in their best interests. I do not think that the Government have had a great deal of success in encouraging companies to make the situation better. Will he learn from those mistakes, and will there be a better method?
Steve Webb
As I think I said a moment ago, we have asked the working group to look at making shopping around—[Interruption.] Before the hon. Lady heckles me, she might like to listen.
Steve Webb
The working group will look at making shopping around the default situation. Somebody who does not actively choose to stay with their current provider will shop around by default. That is the difference between pensions and energy suppliers. Whereas people are stuck with their energy suppliers unless they choose to shop around, people will not get a pension unless they shop around. That is a pretty good incentive to shop around.
Steve Webb
I hope that the hon. Lady will forgive me if I do not; I have given way to her twice already.
New clauses 9 and 10 relate to the role of NEST, which I mentioned a moment ago. New clause 9 suggests that in a couple of years’ time we should review transfers into NEST, and new clause 10 suggests that we review contribution limits at the same time. It is worth reminding the House why NEST was constrained when it was established. There was a recognition that there is a market for big firms and higher earners—pension providers are willing to provide at a reasonable cost and to go to such firms. However, for small firms and lower-paid workers, there was a market failure. NEST was designed to fill that gap in the market.
First, the Government created a legal duty for firms to enrol people, so we ensured that there was something to enrol people in. That is what NEST is for. Secondly, we could have created NEST and imposed no constraints, and it could have been just another provider, but because we constrained NEST to consider lower-paid workers and smaller firms, it has innovated in an impressive manner. The previous Government envisaged such constraints. The Work and Pensions Committee has visited NEST and was positive about what it found. Forcing NEST to focus on lower-paid workers, smaller firms, and people who do not speak “pensions” or who are uninterested in them, has created impressive product, investment strategy and technological innovation, which is entirely welcome. Creating NEST with constraints was the right thing to do, and it has been beneficial.
Dame Anne Begg
If NEST is to work, people must have confidence in the products that are going to be delivered. However, there is a danger that other providers muddy the waters of what is on offer. For instance, a Federation of Small Businesses booklet says that it will offer a comparable pension provider with which firms can auto-enrol their workers. The charge is 0.75% to FSB members and 1% to non-members, but they are not comparable prices. What can the Minister do to ensure that such misinformation does not divert people away from NEST?
Steve Webb
I am grateful to the Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee for drawing my attention to that document, and I am keen to see a copy. Pensions selling is, broadly speaking, regulated by the Financial Services Authority. Claims about pensions need to be accurate. NEST charges are the equivalent—on an average pension—of around 0.5%, as the hon. Lady knows. The suggestion is that a charge of 0.75% or 1% is “comparable”. We can compare anything with anything, but the comparison is not always favourable. She raises an important point, and the pensions regulator and the FSA will seek to ensure that people are given accurate information about pensions.
The right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), who speaks for the Opposition, will be well aware that the Government already have a duty to review NEST after the five-year roll-out of auto-enrolment. New clauses 9 and 10 would not repeal the other duty, so they would mean a review in two years and another one three years after that. The earlier review would be premature and unhelpful in the middle of the roll-out. One might want to tweak 1,001 things, but a review in the middle of roll-out would create uncertainty when the next tranche of firms is choosing which provider to go for. Will NEST have its limit lifted? Will the transfer ban go? Those questions would mean yet more turmoil. An element of certainty in the auto-enrolment process, which has been iterated quite a lot, would be welcome.
The right hon. Gentleman will know that the Government had our own review—“Making automatic enrolment work”—last summer. It said that in the end, in 2017, the restrictions should go. I am entirely sympathetic to that proposition, but deciding that today, or reviewing the situation in the middle of the roll-out, is not the best way forward.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
May I ask the Minister a wider question on auto-enrolment? As he will know because it has been widely reported in the past few days, a report from Mr Adrian Beecroft recommends that the Government postpone the implementation of auto-enrolment altogether. Has the Minister seen that report? If so, what is his response to it?
Steve Webb
The right hon. Gentleman is right that a draft report has been produced and reported in the press, but I can assure him that—as we once famously pointed out—2012 will definitely happen next year. In other words, we do not believe that this important programme should be delayed. Interestingly, the CBI does not believe in a delay, either. It recognises that the biggest firms, which will come in next year, are already planning. In many cases they have already chosen their providers. They are getting on with it, and the last thing we need is new uncertainty about the start of auto-enrolment. We will, therefore, be pressing ahead.
Waiting periods are clearly a trade-off, but today more than ever, we need to realise the impact of what we are doing on smaller firms and businesses more generally.
Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
I understand the Minister’s point and the benefits to a payroll department in a small firm, but does he accept that people who change jobs frequently throughout their careers could be disadvantaged? If people change jobs 11 times, they could end up losing about three years’ worth of benefits.
Steve Webb
The hon. Lady raises an important issue. That is one of the arguments against a six-month waiting period, but those things are a matter of judgment. She used an interesting phrase when she mentioned the payroll departments of small firms, but of course a typical small firm does not have a payroll department, and will struggle with those provisions. We are trying to ensure that the scheme has flexibility, so that we take small firms with us rather than have them resenting the scheme. The waiting period is important in that respect.
Finally, on amendments 19 and 20 and the earnings trigger, which the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) mentioned, the Bill originally proposed that we auto-enrol at around about the national insurance floor, which is a bit more than £5,000, uprated in today’s prices. There were two problems with that. First, there was no de minimis provision, so employers would have auto-enrolled people for pennies a week. If the floor were £5,000 and a person earned £100 a week—£5,200 a year—they would be enrolled on the £200 above the £5,000. Under the legislation that we inherited, the contribution at the start would be 1%—£2 a year, or 4p a week. There might have been the odd adverse newspaper story had we required small firms to enrol people for 4p a week, so we took the view that we had to put the threshold up.
The obvious threshold to use—common thresholds are attractive to employers—is the PAYE threshold. Although we will look at the prevailing situation and make a judgment each year, the broad idea behind aligning with the PAYE threshold is that if businesses have to run PAYE for somebody, auto-enrolment will be a reasonable duty. Below that level, it is inappropriate.
Kevin Brennan
Further to that point, if the Government raise the PAYE threshold, as they have previously announced, will auto-enrolment be triggered at that higher threshold? Would not that deny millions of people—those who would benefit the most—the benefits of auto-enrolment?
Steve Webb
As we have made clear, people still have the right to opt in to auto-enrolment, but obviously the bulk duty will be at the tax threshold. There is a trade-off: we can have a low threshold, but that results in people being brought in for what are technically known as piddling amounts of money, for which the costs are disproportionate. The tax threshold appears to us to be broadly the right level, but as the hon. Gentleman will be aware, we have discretion in the Bill to look each year at the labour market and at what has happened to earnings and prices, and to make a judgment. That is the broad direction of travel, as recommended to us—
Dame Anne Begg
The concern that some of us have is not that the tax threshold will go up to £10,000—although that is the avowed intention of the Government—but that the gap between £7,400 and £10,000 is about £2,500. That group of workers earning under £10,000 might be ruled out of auto-enrolment, when they are the very people who should be auto-enrolled. The situation would be different if the threshold were going up by the rate of inflation, but can the Minister give some assurance that if there is such a leap, he will reconsider the threshold?
Steve Webb
It will clearly vary from individual to individual, but for many people, earning £8,000 or £9,000 is a transitory phase in their labour market experience, and they will move on to earn more than the tax threshold and so come within the scope of the provision. So even if the threshold is not raised, it will not make a lot of difference if someone is not in the scheme for that year. For some people, they or their household will already have pension rights accrued and it might even be right for them to opt out. People will have the chance to opt in to pension provision if it is particularly important for them, and it is right that they should. I accept that there are issues for that group, but for any line drawn one can ask, “What about the people just below?” If we enrol people for trivial amounts of money, we will undermine the whole credibility of the scheme.
We have now had a whistle-stop tour through half a dozen private pensions issues, and I look forward to hearing hon. Members’ comments. I commend new clause 2 to the House.
Stephen Timms
I welcome new clause 2, but I speak in favour of new clauses 9 and 10, and amendments 18, 19 and 20. I shall also respond to some of the points that the Minister has just made. I shall begin by endorsing the tribute the Minister paid to Evelyn Arnold, who is retiring from his Department this week. I very much valued her advice and the way in which it was delivered.
I welcome the fact that the Government have maintained the all-party consensus on the principle of auto-enrolment, based on the work of Lord Turner’s commission on behalf of the previous Government. I worked closely with Adair Turner in that period, and I pay tribute to him, and to his fellow commissioners—Jeannie Drake, now Baroness Drake of Shene in the other place, and John Hills—for their very important achievement in the commission’s report.
I say “all-party consensus” about auto-enrolment, but—as I suggested in my recent intervention—there has been some discussion in the last few days about the extent of that consensus. I notice that David Prosser, who knows something about all this, wrote in The Independent on Saturday:
“There is a growing fear that the Government is about to announce a postponement of auto-enrolment…every delay in pension reform will mean a more miserable old age for millions.”
I am glad, therefore, that the Minister has reaffirmed that the Government intend to go ahead with auto-enrolment on the timetable that has been announced.
It has been reported that Adrian Beecroft, who has given more than £500,000 to the Conservative party in the past five years and has, coincidentally, been asked to advise the Government on cutting burdens on business, has recommended in an interim report that auto-enrolment should be put on hold and scrapped entirely for small businesses.
No doubt there has been some lively discussion within the coalition about this issue, and it is encouraging to see the Secretary of State in his place on the Front Bench and agreeing with the Minister. The Financial Times quotes a Liberal Democrat official this morning as saying of Mr Beecroft:
“He is an ideological Tory donor recruited to give voice to deeply held prejudices in the Tory party. His report has no evidence base.”
I also noticed that the Liberal Democrat Equalities Minister told The Observer on Sunday that Mr Beecroft’s ideas would be “swept away”. We perhaps heard some sweeping away from the Minister this evening. I am pleased to hear his confirmation—endorsed by the Secretary of State—that there will be no delay in auto-enrolment and that small businesses will not be missed out.
I welcome, therefore, the maintaining of the previous consensus on auto-enrolment, and I hope that the position that Ministers have put to the House this evening will stand. However, I regret the dilution of the previous proposals in the Bill. Our amendments seek to address the watering down of the principle of auto-enrolment that the Government have proposed. The amendments would reduce the proposed three-month waiting period to one month. They would also limit increases to the earnings trigger for auto-enrolment to no more than the increase in either the general level of earnings or the national insurance lower earnings limit. That is to address the concern explained by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), the Chair of the Select Committee in her intervention a few moments ago. The new clauses would put a duty on the Secretary of State to establish within two years a review into allowing transfers into NEST, and to review any order he makes on contribution limits in the scheme.
The Labour Government were determined to build cross-party consensus on pensions reform, and, thanks to Lord Turner’s commission, we succeeded. That was very important. We know that people have been under-saving for their retirement. It is estimated that 7 million people in the UK were not saving enough to provide an adequate retirement income. According to Scottish Widows, 20% of people were not saving at all for retirement. Overcoming that problem requires the establishment of a system that people can be confident will endure beyond a future change of Government. I welcome the fact that the principles have indeed survived a change of Government.
The levels of saving among people on low incomes are a particular cause for concern. While 77% of people earning £31,000 a year have savings, that applies to only 56% of people on average earnings and 44% of people on £18,000. The Office for National Statistics has reported that, thanks to the global financial crisis, pension savings fell by £2 billion in 2009-2010. The importance of tackling under-saving has risen even since auto-enrolment was first proposed.
The final report of the pensions commission in 2006 recommended three steps to tackle under-saving: a higher state pension age, restoration of the earnings link for the state pension and the introduction of automatic enrolment—the subject of these amendments. For a long time, inertia had acted against people building up sufficient savings for retirement. My hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Glenda Jackson) has commented on the effect of complex products on people’s understanding of the cost of products. Other demands on people’s income mean that people do not get around to saving. Auto-enrolment will harness inertia to the opposite effect by making saving, rather than not saving, the default option. We continue to support auto-enrolment into workplace pensions, and we are keen to maintain the consensus established for it. Partly for that reason, however, we cannot support the watering down proposed in the Bill.
Steve Webb
This is obviously a balancing act, but one reason for going beyond one month is seasonal workers. Given that the summer lasts longer than four weeks—perhaps not in Britain, but in general—the right hon. Gentleman’s proposals would bring fruit pickers into auto-enrolment. Does that not bother him?
Stephen Timms
No, it does not bother me. The people in that kind of employment might well fall into the category that the Minister mentioned earlier—people who progress later in their working lives, and the earlier that they start their pension saving the better. If they are in a job for more than one month, I would welcome giving them the ability to start saving for their retirement.
Dame Anne Begg
As someone who, in their young days, was a fruit picker in Angus, picking strawberries and raspberries, I think that the only way a fruit picker might end up in auto-enrolment would be if they had other jobs throughout the year that put them above the threshold. However, I can assure the Minister that the three months of the summer for which one would be fruit picking would be unlikely to generate the income that one would need to get over the threshold.
Stephen Timms
I could not have wished for a more effective endorsement of the case that I have put to the House. I am grateful to my hon. Friend.
The Government’s waiting period would incur significant costs through lost contributions for 500,000 employees at any one time and amounting to 7% of an average worker’s fund over a lifetime. Those losses undermine the principle of auto-enrolment and substantially outweigh the benefit from the small reduction in the annual costs to employers.
Amendments 19 and 20 would link the earnings trigger for auto-enrolment to the increase in either earnings or the lower earnings limit for national insurance. As the Minister set out earlier in his exchange with my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South, the Bill will link the level of earnings at which people are auto-enrolled to the higher income tax threshold, with the level reviewed in future according to a number of factors. However, like the three-month waiting period, this measure will exclude a significant number of people from auto-enrolment. Those people will by definition be lower-paid workers, who we know already save proportionately less than others. We also know that they are disproportionately likely to be women.
Earlier the Minister touched on the aspiration that the income tax threshold will in due course rise to £10,000. As my hon. Friend said, there would be a worry if all those earning less than £10,000 were in due course excluded from auto-enrolment as a result. The National Association of Pension Funds has pointed out that that would exclude 17% of all employees and 27%—more than a quarter—of women employees. Adrian Beecroft might be pleased about that, but the Minister should not be. Pension contributions would remain payable on earnings above the national insurance threshold under the plans in the Bill. The TUC has pointed out that moving to that scenario would create a big cliff-edge, so that people would get to, say, £10,000 and suddenly find a large chunk of their earnings deducted, having previously not had anything deducted automatically. That would create a significant disincentive, which the Bill ought to avoid, to enrolment.
We have heard about the basis on which the Government intend to raise the earnings trigger. Their worry is that saving will not deliver sufficient benefits in retirement to be worth while for many people earning below the income tax threshold. However, the Government’s own report shows that most people earning around £8,000 to £9,000 a year will not be earning consistently or permanently in that range, as the Minister underlined, but will move up the income scale.
Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)
Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that the danger of starting when incomes are too low is that the amount in the pot might be so risibly low that it would undermine the obvious advantages that auto-enrolment will deliver over the next 20 years or so?
Stephen Timms
The hon. Gentleman has a point—the Minister also made that point—which is that if the threshold was down at the national insurance threshold, the amounts involved could be tiny. What I am suggesting in our amendments is that the way in which the higher threshold that has now been agreed is subsequently uprated should be constrained. If it is not, a large number of people could be undesirably excluded from auto-enrolment at a time when it might be very much to their advantage to be included, particularly if the threshold goes up to £10,000.
The Minister will tell us—indeed, he already has —that people whose earnings are between the contribution threshold and the earnings trigger can opt into the scheme if they feel they are missing out. However, people have always been able to opt in; the problem is that they have chosen not to. That is why we have auto-enrolment. The point is that opt-ins have not worked. We need a step change. It is unfair to exclude people on lower wages, because they need to be part of the scheme too.
Our two new clauses would place a duty on the Secretary of State to review allowing transfers into NEST and the contribution limits on the scheme. The limits on transfers in and annual contributions were a factor in creating consensus on auto-enrolment—the Minister was right about that. They were correct at the time, and helped us to focus the scheme on where it was needed.
The Johnson review that the Government commissioned was clear about what ought to happen next. It made the point that the Government needed to review those two areas before the planned 2017 review. Paul Johnson said:
“Government and regulators should review as a matter of some urgency how to ensure that it is more straightforward for people to move their pension pot with them as they move employer, so that by the time of the 2017 review the more general issue of pension transfers has been addressed and NEST is able to receive transfers in and pay transfers out.”
The Minister suggested that to do two reviews would muddle things, but that is precisely what the Johnson review calls for, and I think that it does so with good reason. The report argues that that will be
“critical to the success of the reform”.
If this review does not occur before 2017, savers will spend years with fragmented savings in numerous pots that they are unable to combine. They will lose out on the benefits of being able to purchase an annuity on better terms as a result of having one, larger pot of money rather than several small ones. In some circumstances, they might also lose out due to higher management charges or as a result of deferred member penalties.
The Minister has offered some encouragement on this. I notice that he told a pensions conference last month of his vision that people will end up with what he described as “one big fat pot” instead of lots of little ones. However, no provision to review transfers in before 2017 appears on the face of the Bill, which means that people will continue to have lots of little pots, and his vision will remain unfulfilled.
It is right that contribution limits are in place while NEST is being established, but we should look again at whether those limits are necessary sooner rather than later. The Johnson review recommended that the Government legislate to remove the cap in 2017, which would be difficult if the review were commencing only in that year. The amendment therefore provides for a review in 2014. We remain wholeheartedly on the side of the consensus over auto-enrolment, but we believe that some changes are needed.
I shall also be listening with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) in favour of her new clause 1. I was pleased that the Minister sounded well disposed towards it, although we shall need to know precisely what is going to happen to make its aims a reality. I hope that we can make progress in that area, as well as in the others that I have mentioned in my speech.
Harriett Baldwin
I should like to discuss auto-enrolment in general, and new clause 1 in particular. The new clause has been tabled in my name and those of my colleagues on the Work and Pensions Select Committee and several other hon. Friends. This part of the Bill enjoys much greater cross-party consensus than the matters that we were discussing earlier.
Auto-enrolment will improve the pensions landscape in this country for ever. For the first time, millions of ordinary workers will be brought into personal pensions. Between 3 million and 4 million women will begin pension savings, and a total of 10 million pension savers could be created by the massive nudge that they will get from this part of the Bill.
For a typical worker on an average income, the expectation is that, from the age of 22 until their retirement at, say, 67, there is much more likely to be a persistency of saving. For example, a woman earning £25,000 who is saving 5% of her income would save £100 a month. Her employer would make up a similar amount and, with tax breaks over her working lifetime and reasonable investment growth, that regular savings habit could create a pot worth some £200,000 in today’s money. Pessimists have said that that would provide an income of only about 45% of that person’s earnings in retirement, but I say that that is 45% more than they would have had without this enormous nudge. I welcome this step, which I believe will, in the fullness of time, reduce the number of my constituents who as pensioners really worry about making ends meet.
Dame Anne Begg
Does the hon. Lady accept that there might also be a nudge to the pension providers? If they know that they will not automatically get the business from those who have saved with them throughout the lifetime of their pension savings scheme and that that group of people is likely to shop around, those pension providers might improve the annuity on offer to individuals.
Harriett Baldwin
That is an excellent point, and I hope we all fervently agree that competition in this area would be an excellent improvement. Locking in your retirement income is the second most important financial decision that you will ever make. I apologise; I do not mean you, Madam Deputy Speaker, but an individual. Unlike buying a house, however, it is a completely irreversible decision—one that will last for the rest of the individual’s life.
The different rates offered by different providers could mean one’s retirement income being as much as 20% lower if one does not shop around. If we are unlucky enough to suffer from high blood pressure, diabetes, a heart condition, kidney failure, certain types of cancer, multiple sclerosis or chronic asthma or if we smoke, the one bright side is that a 40% higher retirement income could be achieved by shopping around. People who have enjoyed good health in their career but been in a hazardous occupation such as mining might find someone who will offer them a better retirement income. The right hon. Member for Croydon North (Malcolm Wicks), who is no longer in his place, knows that this does not apply to the state pension, but for the pensions we are talking about that involve the insurance market, those factors do apply. My fellow Select Committee members and I thus feel strongly about the value of this particular approach.
Kate Green
I am pleased to welcome the hon. Lady’s new clause. Does she agree that many people are reluctant or even in denial when it comes to facing decisions about their pensions and that there is a real opportunity here to spread a good news message about both the value of saving and making positive decisions about how to invest the product of that saving, thus providing an opportunity for the pensions industry to get on the front foot in engaging people in their long-term financial security?
Harriett Baldwin
I welcome that sensible intervention. I think this will completely transform the landscape. I spoke about an individual with a £200,000 lump sum at retirement. If we multiply that by the up to 10 million additional savers that we could be looking at, it shows how this country’s savings culture is going to be transformed. The scale of the issue to which new clause 1 refers will get much bigger over time.
The Minister reassured us in his earlier comments that there is a cross-departmental working group. I certainly hope that that group will move quickly to come up with some firm recommendations. I know that all who are signatories to this particular new clause look forward to that. We look forward, too, to seeing the action that will come about as a result.
Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab)
I strongly support the principle of auto-enrolment. As was pointed out by the hon. Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin), it means that from 2012 onwards, millions of people will save for a pension for the first time. We need a low-cost, trustworthy system in the United Kingdom if we are to begin to lift future generations out of pensioner poverty.
I fully support the establishment of NEST, as currently only 50% of employees contribute to a private pension, and for many of those on lower incomes the current system is poor. Research has shown that if a typical British and a typical Dutch person save exactly the same amount for their retirement, the Dutch person will end up with a 50% larger pension under the current scheme. I believe that that is because in the UK it is often not clear how high pension charges can be. For instance, a person who is sold a pension and charged at 1.5% per annum may not realise that over the lifetime of the pension, 38% of their possible income could be lost to fees.
In the past, pension companies were unwilling to provide the low-cost pensions of the type needed under auto-enrolment, as they felt that the ordinary low-paid workers had what the industry deemed “unattractive lives”—a somewhat derogatory term which simply meant that it was not easy to make money out of those policies. Indeed, it was because of the failure of the current structure to provide such pensions that it was necessary to establish NEST.
I welcome auto-enrolment, I welcome NEST and I welcome new clause 2, but three points cause me concern. My concern about auto-enrolment was prompted by some of the evidence given to the Work and Pensions Committee relating to a lack of regulation. I was troubled to hear that there would be no restrictions on how workplace pension savings are invested, and no record-keeping requirements for providers. The meeting between the Select Committee and the Pensions Regulator gave me very little reassurance. It appears that during the drafting of the Bill, many interested parties gained concessions. Employers, whether large, small or micro—along with the pensions industry—have been pleased to note that restrictions will be placed on NEST, but not necessarily on other alternative providers.
I believe that the restrictions placed on contributions to NEST, a vehicle for workers whose employers have no pension provision, may push some employers who are new to the pensions arena towards less scrupulous pension providers, I realise that NEST is aimed at lower earners, but some of the restrictions placed on it may nudge employers who are baffled by the choices facing them towards a pension provider that does not have such restrictions, but may well provide an unattractive pension scheme for the employee. It appears that the industry and employers have been around the negotiating table, but that the employees’ voice has not yet been heard.
If employers reject NEST because of the contribution limit, or other limits, they may place employees in schemes with unfairly high charges. I am deeply concerned about the apparent lack of a quality test for schemes that would be deemed to be a qualifying alternative to NEST. We know from past mis-selling scandals that too few people understand how charges, and pensions, work, and that—as in the case of the mis-selling of endowment policies—it can take many years for such practices to come to light. I ask the Minister to consider, with the benefit of hindsight in regard to previous mis-selling problems, what measures he intends to take to ensure that we do not store up similar troubles with auto-enrolment outside NEST.
My second point, which the Minister has touched on, relates to the ban on transfers to NEST, which resulted from lobbying from the pensions industry and which will benefit that industry at the expense of employees in the scheme. Under the current rules, people who are auto-enrolled in a scheme and go into NEST will not be able to move existing pots into the scheme. Such a ban cannot benefit the very employees and future pensioners whom we are trying to assist; it can only support the industry. I believe that a modern pension in a modern age should be portable, and that provisions for transfers in and out of NEST should be included in the Bill even if they cannot be implemented immediately. I welcomed some of the reassurances given by the Minister in his opening remarks.
My third reason for concern is the three-month waiting period. Although I understand the need to balance the administrative burden for businesses, it means that half a million fewer people will be automatically enrolled. As has been pointed out twice already today, nowadays many people have 11 different employers over their lifetimes. I would support a reduction to one month. Nevertheless, employees are currently able to opt in to the system from the first day of their employment, but they need to know that they have that right. I urge the Minister to amend the measures to require employers to ensure that employees are aware from when they start their employment that they can opt in from day one and receive employer pensions contributions.
The pensions cap combined with the three-month opt-out and the inability to transfer into NEST will prevent casual workers and part-time workers—mainly women—from building a decent pot, even though that is our aim. I ask the Minister to consider these concerns and in his closing remarks to give the House further assurances as to how they can be addressed.
Glenda Jackson
I rise to speak in support of the new clause of the hon. Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin). I also strongly endorse everything my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce) has just said. I, too, strongly support auto-enrolment. It offers a genuine breakthrough in attracting those people who presume that saving has nothing to offer them, which is not infrequently because their wages have been extremely low.
This scheme requires greater Government support, however. I was concerned by the Minister’s somewhat sanguine attitude towards what the established pensions industry is going to do. As the hon. Member for West Worcestershire said, millions of people will for the first time feel encouraged to begin to save for their future.
Those people have always been out there, but the existing pensions industry has done absolutely nothing to attract them into savings. If it is suddenly interested in this new market, I wonder what it finds so attractive. The Minister referred to the CBI, which is a confederation of major employers. However, from my point of view the real silver lining of the scheme is that it will attract employers who employ only a few staff and their employees.
I am not making a party political point here, but we are currently in a period when people’s standards of living are falling. The most recent report from the Institute for Fiscal Studies found that most people’s standard of living has fallen by 7%. That will serve only to reinforce the existing reluctance of small business men and their employees on low incomes to see any benefits in saving for the future, and the pensions industry does not seem in any way geared up to make it attractive.
My hon. Friend spoke about the mis-selling scandals of the past. I need only refer to payment protection insurance. The mis-selling of that was conducted by bankers, and at that time they were considered to be rock-solid people, although that assessment has now changed dramatically in this country and the entire world. There have been far too many examples of excessive charges. I have also referred to the impenetrable documents issued to us by our pension providers. The problem is not simply their length or the smallness of the print; they are completely incomprehensible.
I understand that the Government cannot simply say to everybody, “Listen, the only scheme you should go into is this new scheme, NEST.” However, as that option is not available to them, they must work with the existing pensions industry to ensure that safeguards are in place.
The Government have attempted to make some changes in another supposedly competitive industry: the energy industry. They have markedly failed, however. There is no genuine competition in that industry. We, the people who have to pay the bills, know that, and Which? has said it, as have Ofgem and the Government.
This measure is a major step forward and, as I have said, I absolutely endorse it, because it genuinely seems to be a way of ensuring that people can have a more secure future for themselves. Not only that, but we also hope it will relieve the tax burden for generations to come and it should give people a greater sense of being in charge of their own destinies. However, that is not possible if they are not absolutely satisfied and guaranteed that the pensions being sold are actually transparent and honest, and that the detail is specific and clear to them—
Mr Duncan Smith
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
I welcome the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont) to his place. Notwithstanding our earlier little exchanges, I unreservedly welcome him. I am sure that he will be a great asset to his party, and I look forward to other clashes and debates that we may have as time goes on. I thank the Members on both sides of the House who served with distinction on the Public Bill Committee for their help in scrutinising the Bill. They have had to hang around for quite a long time, but we are where we are now. I also thank the Opposition for their approach to many of the positive debates on the Bill’s clauses. May I also extend my appreciation to my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West (Mr Brady) and the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) for chairing the Committee sittings through those longer moments?
It is also right that I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Pensions Minister for his commitment to taking this important legislation through this House. If there is anybody in government who has championed the cause of the low-paid in pensions, it is him. It is a privilege and pleasure to work with him in this coalition—a very firm coalition in our case. On a departmental point, may I back him up on what he said about one of our civil servants, Evelyn Arnold, whom the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) knows? She is retiring after a long time and has seen so many of these things go through, and it is right for us to thank those who serve us without normal comment. So, without question, I thank her for the time she has spent, on behalf of all parties in government, getting this sort of legislation through.
Over the past few months, a number of amendments were made that I believe have improved the Bill, and I shall run through them. With the blessing of the House, I do not intend to spend much time on them because we have been through them a lot. Amendment 1 related to the consumer prices index underpin, where we have listened to concerns and responded by ensuring that schemes that use the retail prices index will not have to uprate by CPI in the years when it is higher. We have heard the issues raised on deferred member charges and, having listened, we have extended an existing reserve power to cap charges to also cover deferred members. That enables the Government to protect all scheme members from high charges regardless of what might come in the future, which is an important feature. Thirdly, we have also made an amendment to clarify the definition of money purchase benefits in light of the Supreme Court’s recent judgment in Houldsworth v. Bridge, ensuring that schemes and members continue to have adequate protection.
The House will be aware that we have listened and responded to concerns about the women most affected by the accelerated rise in the state pension age. Last week we announced that no women will see their state pension age increase by more than 18 months. We have always been clear that our policy will not change and we will still equalise the state pension age by 2018 and increase it to 66 by 2020. We have, however, honoured the commitment I gave on Second Reading to ease the transition process for those who are most affected. I listened with interest to the debate, but the point that is sometimes missed is that the adjustment means that nearly 250,000 women will have a lower state pension age as a result of the change, as will a similar number of men: 500,000 people at a cost of just over £1 billion in the next spending period. We should not sniff at that.
Mr Duncan Smith
Before I give way to the right hon. Gentleman, let me make a small point. I understand why the Opposition want to trumpet a great deal about this. Having sat in opposition, I understand that getting self-righteous about such things in defence of others who raise them is exactly what Opposition Members do. As some of my hon. Friends said earlier, however, unless the Opposition can guarantee that they will reverse the measure if and when they come into government, in essence they are doing something quite cynical by raising the hopes of women outside, knowing only too well secretly that they will never make the change. If I give way, I would like to hear that the Opposition absolutely plan to reverse this measure and change it in government.
Stephen Timms
One thing the Opposition are entitled to do is ask the Government to explain why they are doing what they are doing. At a time when the Government are increasing the state pension age by one year for many people, what is the justification for picking out 500,000 women and treating them more harshly than everybody else?
Mr Duncan Smith
I think the right hon. Gentleman knows the answer to that question. It is wholly part of the process of equalisation and of moving everybody on at the same time for the extra year’s increase. That answers his point, but, as he knows in his heart of hearts—I consider him a reasonable man in his dealings most of all—the real point is that had Labour been in government, I suspect that they would have done almost exactly the same things.
The generation below my generation is likely to retire on a lower income in retirement, the first generation to do so, as a result of all the problems we have had with the economy—which the previous Government left for us and for which we never get an apology—and the reality that not enough people have been saving. We are about to condemn a generation of people who will struggle to save for their pensions and who will have to pay off elements of the debt that we—this generation going through Parliament—have overseen while at the same time paying for those who are already in retirement, and we must do something to help them rid us of that debt so that they do not pick up such a large proportion of it and are not saddled with it as they attempt to bring up their children and earn a living at the same time.
Stephen Timms
The Secretary of State is explaining why the state pension age needs to be raised and our amendments did not oppose the increase of one year. We are still waiting, however, for some justification why this particular group of 500,000 women must wait more than a year—longer than everyone else—to reach their state pension age.
Mr Duncan Smith
I think I have explained that. As I said earlier and as the right hon. Gentleman knows well, the acceleration is about reaching equalisation in time to move the age to 66. We can bandy this subject about, but the point remains that the Opposition must come to terms with something quite important. The hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East, who opened the debate on Report, suggested that £11 billion—he insisted on saying £10 billion, but I must tell him that the figure is £11 billion—was no great problem and not an issue in the great scheme of things. That is, in a sense, the problem. I remind him that to save £5 billion in real terms today straight off, we would have to cut the education budget by 10%. That is the nature of how we would have to find the money.
I simply say to the Opposition that I understand the rules of opposition—goodness gracious, we spent enough time in opposition ourselves—and the temptations that come with opposition, but realistically they should be saying to all those women that we have made a major move. We are prepared to spend an extra £1 billion to make sure that those who were excessively caught in that trap are not any more. I think that is fair and reasonable and that the Opposition need to explain to women up and down the land why they are making a big fuss about this when they know, cynically, that they would not overturn this if they came to government. That is a very cynical position to be in—to whip up this emotion outside and then calmly and quietly say, “Of course, we can’t change it.” I am afraid that is bad politics and bad decision making.
Glenda Jackson
Perhaps the Secretary of State would like to hear what some of the women in my constituency think about the Government’s changes regarding their pension age. Their view is that the Government have made this very small change—it is a very small movement—which has nothing whatever to do with a concern for those women in their old age, because they are losing the women’s vote––and my constituents are not by nature cynical.
Mr Duncan Smith
After listening to the Opposition tonight, they ought to be. One thing I will be certain to tell them whenever I encounter them is that at least I am being honest about what we are trying to do. We inherited a major economic problem, with a deficit that was out of control and burgeoning debt—the two are linked just in case the Opposition do not remember that. The reality is that, on both counts, we are charged with reducing the amounts. That is not something that is given to just a few Ministers—it is ultimately about taxpayers and about those who get pensions.
We have listened and we have done something quite significant—not small—to give way. To cap this at 18 months and spend £1 billion is, as my hon. Friends have recognised, a big step. Of course, in a perfect world, as the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott) said, if all things were equal we would have loved to be able to do more, but the reality that we face is that this country has to get its debt under control. As I said earlier, the real burden is not going to fall on the shoulders of the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Glenda Jackson) or on mine but on those of our children and grandchildren if we do not do something about that debt. I am not prepared to think to myself, “I must charge around and say that I am worried about this group or that group.” I have to say to them honestly, “All of us, together, recognise that we must do the best for the next generation coming through,” as well as doing our best, as the Pensions Minister said, for those who are due to retire.
With the amendments in place, I believe that the Bill has reached Third Reading with its fundamental principles firmly intact. I have repeatedly said that the Bill is, in large part, about the next generation—a generation who will have to pay for their parents’ retirement while footing the bill for their own savings and also for the debt.
I want to discuss auto-enrolment which, as the right hon. Member for East Ham rightly said, was started by his Government. We committed to continue it and I like to think that we have done that in the best spirit possible, taking into account the difficult financial considerations. The key will be getting many more people into saving. As he knows, some 9 million to 10 million people will be eligible under the new system. That is why we are taking forward plans for automatic enrolment into pension schemes—plans that were debated and widely supported across the House.
The Bill refines some of the parameters of automatic enrolment legislation and ensures that we take forward a model that will work for the individual, I hope, as well as for the employers who will be our key partners in delivering these reforms. There was a question about the three-month point and I wanted to make a point about those who are in work for three months in these firms and then move on—90% will move on, so the issue we are dealing with concerns a much smaller group than people have been leading us to believe. I do not agree with those who say categorically that this is a problem for growth. Auto-enrolment is good for the country, good for people who save and, ultimately, good for growth because it puts the economy on a firm footing, based on savings. I stand here today categorically prepared to take on anybody on that basis, and I will continue to do so, as will the Pensions Minister and, indeed, all of us. Others who support us on this include the TUC, the CBI and the National Association of Pension Funds. I hope that, as a consideration, we will move forward on this together.
Finally, I want to touch briefly on the consumer prices index uprating and judicial pensions. I know that everybody in the House is worried about the judicial pension scheme that is going through in the Bill, but none the less we will press on. As I made clear on Second Reading, the Bill makes a few relatively minor changes to the legislation governing the uprating of occupational pensions. It amends references to the retail prices index to read instead the “general level of prices” to ensure consistency with the rest of the legislation. It does not specify the measure for the general level of prices. I am pleased to see that the Opposition support us in all of this, although after talking to some Opposition Back Benchers, I do not think they were aware that the Government and the Opposition are apparently as one on CPI.
On judicial pensions, I will simply say that this is a key part of building a more responsible pension system, and I am pleased that the provisions have received the widespread support of the House.
I shall conclude, as others may want to speak. When we introduced the Bill, we were clear about the principle behind it: a desire to secure a better deal for our children through incentivising saving and sharing the costs of retirement more evenly between the generations. I hope there are more changes to come, with the other pension reforms that my hon. Friend the Minister spoke about, which will incentivise saving and give people a base income in retirement that they can understand and calculate. These changes should be seen in the light of all those wider reforms. We are currently working on that state pension design and consulting on the option of a single tier. All this will, I hope, provide a better deal for many women and self-employed people who have historically tended to suffer poorer pension outcomes. The changes that we are making to our retirement system are designed to put it back on firm foundations, establishing a new and fairer settlement between young and old.
I return to one point. It is a challenge to any Opposition, I guess, to have been in government and created something of which they are justifiably proud—auto-enrolment. We wanted to continue with it and we have done our level best to do that. That is the most important and powerful part of this Bill of reform. Given the importance of auto-enrolment, and notwithstanding all the heat and light generated by the Opposition’s arguments today about the level and the speed at which the state pension retirement age has moved, when they sit down and consider what is in the Bill that we are about to pass—automatic enrolment to improve the savings and outcomes for people in future years—I hope the Opposition will do the right thing and support the Bill. On that basis I commend the Bill to the House.
Stephen Timms
The Bill certainly has some welcome features, as well as some very regrettable, unwelcome features. I shall touch on both aspects in my contribution.
The recommendations of the Pensions Commission chaired by Lord Turner were broadly accepted across the House. As Pensions Minister at the time, I was extremely impressed by the energy and commitment brought to their task by Lord Turner and his fellow commissioners, John Hills and the now Baroness Jeannie Drake. They were successful in putting together an all-party consensus, which has endured. We will continue to work consensually with the Government as far as we can for the strategy that was developed in the review.
The first element of that was auto-enrolment into a low-cost national scheme. I agree with the Secretary of State about the significance of that change and I welcome his confirmation that the Government will not move away from their commitment to auto-enrolment. The second element was an increase in the state pension age, and re-linking the level of the state pension with earnings was the third.
But it is not fair for the costs of this trinity of measures to be borne disproportionately by any one group in society, whether that group is defined by age, occupation or gender. The Bill would unfortunately affect some groups far more than others. We have just had a debate touching on the fact that young people and agency workers, who move jobs more frequently than average, are likely to lose many months of employers’ contributions because of the changes, as well as the chance of building up a savings habit, because of the introduction of a waiting period in auto-enrolment. Up to a million people on low wages would be left out of auto-enrolment owing to the increase in the level of the earnings threshold. But most significantly of all, and this is what gives us a real problem with the Bill, half a million women aged 56 and 57 will find themselves waiting up to 18 months longer for their state pension, and a third of a million will be waiting a full 18 months extra, with too little time to plan for the change. That is a serious problem.
We welcome the Government’s recognition that the original Bill was wrong, and what we have now is certainly a welcome change. I make no bones about welcoming the change that has been made, the concession in response to the big and entirely proper campaign that took place, but the Bill still leaves half a million women in the lurch. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) led the argument against the original ill thought-out plans, and I welcome the change that has occurred, but, with so many women still affected, Ministers cannot claim that they have solved the problem.
We understand why the state pension age is being increased by one year for many people, because the Secretary of State set out why and our amendments did not oppose the increase, but what has struck me about tonight’s debate is that no Government Member supporting the Bill has provided any justification why it is being increased by more than one year for half a million women—and not for a single man. What is the justification for picking out that group of half a million women and treating them more harshly than everybody else?
Why are those women being picked out for worse treatment? We have been given no justification at all, except that it will save a lot of money. No doubt it will, but the Secretary of State has a responsibility to develop a policy that can be defended, that has some rationale to it, not simply telling us, “Well, this is going to save us a lot of money.” There needs to be some justification for the change that is being made, and no justification—at least none that I can understand—has been made at all for picking out that group of half a million women.
The Pensions Policy Institute recommends that 10 years’ notice be given for people to plan for a change in their pension age, and the Turner report recommended a longer period, but the plans in the Bill still give some women as little as five years, and that is simply not enough. It is just not fair to those affected to impose on them such a big change with so little notice.
Those women have relied on an implicit contract of reasonableness and fairness between government and citizens when planning their retirement, and, if the truth is that government cannot be trusted to keep its side of the bargain, how are people expected to plan for pensions saving at all? Pension saving is inherently long-term in character, but it simply will not happen if the Government make a habit of sudden policy lurches that undermine the assumptions on which people have been encouraged to build in the past, so it is no wonder so many women feel so badly let down by what the Government have done.
We are talking about a 10-year period beginning in 2016. Under the coalition’s plans, unless they are to continue the current effectively zero-growth policy indefinitely, those savings are about the long-term sustainability of the pensions system, and we support, as our amendments tonight supported, the proposal to find further savings, if necessary, by bringing forward the date at which the rise to 67 years old occurs, as long as people have time to organise their affairs and to plan accordingly. The sudden unpredictable lurch, not mentioned by either coalition party in the general election campaign or in the coalition agreement, has caused the problem.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont) stated on Report, our objection to this part of the Bill is that it achieves these very large savings solely at the expense of one age cohort of women, apparently on a wholly arbitrary basis. The data are very clear. Women have substantially lower savings than men, yet a group of women—older women who have the least time to plan for the change—are being asked to bear the cost. The Bill simply fails the fairness test, and for that reason, in particular, we cannot support its Third Reading. We understand that Ministers are worried about rapidly plunging popularity among women voters and we are told that they are puzzled about why that is happening. They should just take a careful look at the unfairness in this Bill, and they will find a ready explanation there. We will not support that unfairness in the Lobby tonight, and no one else who values fairness should do so either.
The third of a million women with a wait of an extra 18 months will lose, just in state pension, pension payments averaging £7,800, and if one allows for pension credit and other passported benefits, we are talking about significantly greater sums still. Those women, if they are not working at the moment, will find it hard to find new jobs in the current labour market. Given that 37% of them are currently not in work, how are they supposed to make up that shortfall? We have been given no answers to that question.
As I think we would all agree, the design of the future pensions system should maintain inter-generational fairness. Imposing such large costs on one group of women means that the Bill fails to meet that fairness test. What became of the Burkean compact between generations to which Conservatives once subscribed?
Jenny Willott
Is the right hon. Gentleman able to answer the question that was posed by several hon. Members earlier in the debate, and then again by the Secretary of State, about whether he and his party would plan to repeal the proposals on women’s pensions and pension age if they were to come into government after the next election, given that the changes would not have taken place by that time and they would have the opportunity to do that were they so minded?
Stephen Timms
My hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East answered that question earlier in the debate. Our view is that there have been too many changes and we would not propose yet another. The hon. Lady needs to explain the justification for picking out this particular group of half a million women and treating them more harshly than everyone else whose state pension age is being raised only by one year. For a third of a million women, it is being raised by a year and a half, and for half a million, it is being raised by more than a year. We have had no explanation and no attempt at a justification. Is it an accident or some kind of mishap? It certainly should be put right, and sadly it has not been put right in the changes that the Government have made.
There are other problems in the Bill. It dilutes the plan for auto-enrolment that was supported across the House. The proposals will leave many low-paid and agency workers outside auto-enrolment, and we think that they should not be left behind. Moreover, the gains from these exclusions, in lower costs for employers, will be small. It would be quite wrong to exclude people just because they work for small companies, as the Conservative party donor Adrian Beecroft is apparently arguing. I greatly appreciate the assurances that we have had about that during the debate, and I hope that Ministers will continue stoutly to resist any such moves if they are promoted from elsewhere in the coalition. The Pensions Commission made it clear that extending the benefits of pensions saving to more people who work for small firms is one of the prizes from this reform, and we must not throw it away.
The Secretary of State is absolutely right to argue that this is a pro-growth, not an anti-growth, change in making it possible for more people to save for a decent retirement. Of course it is right to be concerned about the plight of small firms in the zero-growth economy that we seem to have. I commend to the Government the national insurance holiday for small firms that take on additional workers that is proposed by my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor. We remain strongly supportive of the policy of auto-enrolment. We are disappointed, however, that the Government are seeking to water down the proposals around which the all-party consensus was hard won.
We welcome the consensus on the basic building blocks for a more sustainable pensions system, but the Government are quite wrong to load the cost of change so disproportionately on one group of half a million women. For a long time, they did not listen to those women at all. When they did, they came forward with a half measure. The sense of grievance that they have instilled in the women affected will not be readily dispelled. We are pleased to have won a concession, but many people will still be deeply disappointed. For that reason in particular, I urge Members to decline to give the Bill a Third Reading.
Sheila Gilmore
I am glad that the politicians who sat in this House when I was born and was growing up in this country did not decide that the burden of debt was so great that they could not introduce the reforms that brought us the welfare state. It was not their view that they should stop planning, being optimistic and working towards a better future for their children and grandchildren. Despite the national debt being eye-wateringly high, our predecessors in this place were prepared to go ahead with reform and change.
Today, we have heard several speakers, including the Pensions Minister and the Secretary of State, argue that the Opposition are somehow being unfair to future generations, whereas the Government are being fair, because we would burden people with more debt. I think that our predecessors did the right thing for us. In fact, it was so much the right thing that I suspect it created the problem that we now have with longevity. The incredible improvements in life expectancy over the past 50 or 60 years have their roots in the creation of the welfare state.
Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)
My parents, and I suspect the hon. Lady’s parents, had rationing after the war because the situation was so serious, and it was not good for many years after that.
Sheila Gilmore
Rationing, oddly enough, did a lot for people’s health and well-being. For some people in Britain at that time, it did not represent a worse standard of living, although it may have done for others, because during the 1930s many families struggled to put food on their tables because of unemployment.
The point that I was making is that the vision was not constrained by the debt. Things were difficult in many ways in the post-war period, but the Government of the day were nevertheless of the view that one had to plan for the future. I am not a great pessimist about debt. I feel that the whole thing has been grossly misrepresented by Government Members. In the early years of the last decade, the Government reduced the debt. Debt was very high in the period of the last Conservative Government, which people appear to have forgotten. It is not the case that the last Labour Government simply set about building up that debt in some sort of systematic way, to the detriment of future generations, as is suggested.
Of course we have to address how to cease having annual financial deficits, and then in the medium to long term we have to reduce debt. However, at the moment the signs are at the medicine that the coalition parties are applying is not working. The chances are that, the way things are going, we will get to the end of this Parliament with a greater debt. We are already borrowing more than was projected last year, which is indeed quite frightening, but it means that we need to consider what we want to do.
I am not going to make too much of this point, because various people have made it earlier, but all Governments make choices about what they spend money on. We do not believe that the choice to accelerate the pension age rise for women is the right one. There are others that could be made, and we would be making them if we were in government. It has been said in this debate and others that if we cannot immediately identify some cut equivalent to any spending that we suggest is justified and fair, we are somehow being irresponsible. I do not accept that.
I suggested earlier a couple of things that I thought we could do, for example not ending the 50% tax rate, as some Government Members seem keen to do. The idea keeps being floated. We could also consider how we provide tax relief on the pension contributions of people on higher-rate tax earnings, because that is a huge giveaway to those who are already better off. There are a number of choices that we could make. I know that this is not the view of everyone on the Labour Benches, but personally I am not in favour of going ahead with Trident. Some of my colleagues agree with me and some do not, but the important point is that there are always choices.
I was going to say that we had driven people out of the Gallery in this debate, because when I started to speak it was completely empty. However, people have now obviously come in to hear me. People often see the subject of pensions as a bit of a bore and not very exciting, but it is hugely important. I regret greatly that the very good pensions legislation that Barbara Castle introduced, which brought in the state earnings-related pension scheme, was completely destroyed by the last Conservative Government. Had that not happened, many people would be very much better off now.
Although I very much agree with auto-enrolment, I am afraid I do not see it a complete substitute for that legislation. However, we must not move away from auto-enrolment, and I very much welcome the guarantees from the Secretary of State and the Pensions Minister that they will not agree to any delay in its rolling out. Nevertheless, for the reasons that my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) gave, I am not in a position to support the Bill tonight.
Glenda Jackson
Regrettably, I was not here for the opening remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), but we are clearly of one mind. I share with her the total refusal to accept the Government’s interpretation of the situation in which we find ourselves. The Secretary of State made a passionate plea that the debt should not lay a burden on our children and grandchildren, but that plea would have played rather more resonantly with me were it not for the fact that his Government are punishing our children and grandchildren even as we speak.
My parents and grandparents had absolutely no qualms whatever about laying on my generation the burden of debt incurred by fighting and winning a second world war, and I have to say that I am extremely grateful to them for that. I also point out to the Secretary of State that in the intervening decades, the opportunities that were presented to me and millions like me in this country by, as my hon. Friend said, the introduction of the welfare state, had been not only unheard of but undreamt of by people from the social and economic background from which I came. Therefore I, like her, simply refuse to accept that the choices the Government are making in every single area of our national economic life will promote growth, provide a way forward or benefit this country.
I would be more prepared to believe that the changes to the pension system that the Government have introduced—which, as my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) said, are grossly unfair to women—were driven by the harsh economic climate, which the Government constantly pray in aid, were it not for the fact that that measly six months will save only £1.1 billion. The Government borrow something like 10 times that amount every week. I simply cannot make the figures match—but then neither can they.
Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)
I struggle to see the hon. Lady’s logic in comparing a debt carried over on behalf of the nation for the second world war with a pension debt that results from the demographic fact of an ageing population for whom we must pay. Is she saying that £1.2 billion is a measly amount? If so, where would she find the other £10 billion that the Labour party are committed to spending by not voting for the Bill?
Glenda Jackson
I trust that the hon. Lady would allow me to use my own adjectives—“measly” is not a word that would immediately spring to my mind to describe £1.1 billion. The fact is that the six-month “pause”, which might be a better word to use as far as the hon. Lady’s view of the economy is concerned, will apparently save the nation £1.1 billion. That saving will not come in until next year, and it is doing nothing to fill the current hole. That sum is a fraction of what the Government are borrowing week in, week out, because they have markedly failed to do anything to create growth in this country. They have done little or nothing to stimulate our economy. The hon. Lady may smile and shake her head, but I was taught that the only way to get something is by earning it. That is the only way to settle debt.
Glenda Jackson
The hon. Lady is plucking fantasies out of the air—fantasies that the Government have been running for months. The money is certainly not paying to ensure that every child in my constituency has a school place, or that every elderly person in my constituency has secure meals on wheels, or that day centres for the elderly remain open. The Government have done nothing to encourage young people to believe that they have a future. Whatever they are doing with the money, they are certainly not stimulating growth in the country.
I must return to the issues that we are supposedly debating. The Government have imposed a gross unfairness on one half of our people: women. That unfairness is absolutely unacceptable. As I had occasion to say to the Secretary of State in an intervention, for many women in my constituency, the changes to the Bill are nothing more than a cynical attempt by the Government to re-attract the female vote, which, as they read every day in the papers, they are losing.
On the one hand, the Government have introduced this Bill, but on the other, they protest that one of their central planks is ensuring greater equality for women. They say that they want more women in the boardroom, and greater wage equality and equality of opportunity, but then they decide that when a woman has worked all her life—as has been said, she will probably have been in low-paid work, doing two or three jobs at the same time, not least looking after her family, including both children and parents—and when her employment potential is nil, she must struggle on until the state pension comes in.
I strongly and heartily endorse many aspects of auto-enrolment. I do have concerns that the Government will not introduce sufficient teeth to ensure that, if the existing pensions industry does regard auto-enrolment as a business that they would wish to enter, the proper safeguards would be in place to ensure that it remains genuinely competitive, open and transparent, so that people who have never before considered having a pension will not find—as most of us do at the moment—the pension papers to be totally obfuscating so that we are no wiser about where our money is going or what the charges are after reading them.
It will not be possible for me to vote for this Bill, but I strongly endorse auto-enrolment. I urge the Government to think again, even at this late stage, about trying to eradicate this gross unfairness from the Bill.
Jenny Willott
It will not surprise hon. Members to learn that I welcome the Bill. The issue of women’s state pension age has been discussed in full already today, but there is much else in the Bill to be welcomed. Many of the measures have broad support across the House, as we have already heard this evening. Auto-enrolment is, as the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Glenda Jackson) said, critical to many people who up to now have had no pension savings and have not been in a position to save for their retirement. It is fundamental, and I support it now as I supported it when it was proposed by the previous Government.
We have to get more people saving for their retirement. Far too many people have no savings at all, and when they retire they depend entirely on the basic state pension. It was not designed to provide an adequate living; it was designed as a safety net. But for an awful lot of people it is their sole retirement income, and that is something that we need to change. For years we have been grappling with how to get more people to save, especially those on the lowest incomes. Auto-enrolment is critical, because we need to make it as easy as possible for people to save. We need to make it as easy as possible for businesses to administer, so that it becomes a no-brainer: people will automatically save for retirement without thinking twice about it, and so put themselves in a better position for their retirement.
Pensions are such an important issue to get right. It is not glamorous, people do not understand it, and it is very complicated. Even when I have conversations with other hon. Members about it, their eyes often glaze over. It is not an issue that people want to discuss, but it is our duty to try to make it as simple as possible for people so that as many as possible have some savings put away for their retirement and can retire in more comfort. That ties in with what my hon. Friend the Minister said earlier about the need to get means-testing out of the system, so that people know that whatever they save while they are working will benefit them in their retirement. We need to ensure that a flat-rate pension is introduced as soon as possible so that people who work, on however low an income, know that whatever they put aside during their working lives will benefit them when they retire, that they will have adequate retirement pensions, and that they will not have to rely on just the basic state pension.
I am saddened that many hon. Members feel unable to support the Bill—
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way at this late hour on Third Reading. She is making a very impassioned speech about women who should save for their retirement, and that is right—but what would she say to the 500,000 women who have made savings and thought about what will happen when they retire, but who will now have to wait 18 months longer for the state pension?
Jenny Willott
I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman was not able to be in his place earlier when I explained all that. We had a long debate on exactly that point earlier. The whole point of Third Reading is to be able to expand on the issues, and I wish to put on record the fact that I am very supportive of auto-enrolment, as are many other hon. Members, and on the capping of fees, as well as other measures in the Bill that are crucial but have not had as much attention as women’s pensions have. I hope that hon. Members will reconsider and feel able to support the Bill this evening, so that we can ensure that more people save for their retirement and do not have to live in poverty.
Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)
The right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) set out his misgivings about the Bill. I share some of his trepidation about the effects on the group of women that we have discussed, but I shall be supporting the Government because I disagree with the hon. Members for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) and for Hampstead and Kilburn (Glenda Jackson), who sought to set out our financial position and compare our debt to that after the second world war. I wish that our financial context was as simple as just the size of the national debt. I have the figures and charts on my iPad: shortly after the second world war the Government were running a surplus—the second largest run since the second world war. It was beaten only in 1970. I would make another point about how the welfare state was founded.
Sheila Gilmore
In terms of annual expenditure, I do not disagree with that, but the surplus was so high partly because personal taxation levels were considerably higher than they are today.
Steve Baker
I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s point, because she seems to have pre-empted me—as I rewind on my iPad back to the chart showing taxation. [Interruption.] Between 1940 and 1950 the total level of taxation taken out of the economy rose from about 12% to 40% and it has stayed at about 40% since 1970. The context therefore is very different. The Government can only fund themselves through taxation, borrowing and currency debasement. If I wind forward and have a look at the charts on currency debasement, I can tell her that we have been furiously debasing the currency since 1971, which is the reason for the current mess we are in.
I also point out to the hon. Lady that the Bank for International Settlements has provided a number of charts setting out the debt projections for most of the western world, all of which look catastrophic. For example, in the United Kingdom—[Interruption.] Aren’t iPads useful! The BIS tells us that on the trajectory we inherited from Labour, our national debt would have reached 500% of gross domestic product by 2040. By then our debt interest payments would have been one quarter—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is using his iPad very well, but I hope that he will come to Third Reading, which he should be mentioning.
Steve Baker
The financial context now is quite different from that in previous years. If the Government were not to address the pensions crisis within a realistic financial context, we would have a financial catastrophe. We would find ourselves, by 2040, attempting to spend one quarter of GDP on debt interest. It would be catastrophic—and much as my heart goes out to those ladies who I wish were not being affected by the Bill, because of the financial position in which we find ourselves I shall, of course, support the Government.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
Pensions are one of the great challenges of our age, so it is pleasing that we have been able to adopt a cross-party approach. It was begun by the previous Government, who set up the Turner review, and has been taken forward by this Government in, by and large, a sensible way—although there are areas of great concern.
Auto-enrolment is a positive development that, judging by speeches from across the House, is supported widely by Members on both sides. It will provide protection for people in their old age, and is a good thing. However, it is unfortunate that the Bill, as currently constructed, will hit young people and agency workers by putting in place a waiting period that means that they will not get all the entitlements that they should do early in their pension-building life. It is even more unfortunate that women aged 56 to 58 will be significantly penalised in a way that fails any test of fairness that the House, or anybody outside it, might apply.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
Does my hon. Friend agree that Government Members, in trying to defend the Bill as it now stands—with the Government’s changes—are trying to pass off an improvement as a solution? They are trying to present a mitigation of the scale of an injustice as justice itself. Those of us who will be voting against the Bill on Third Reading do not believe that we have an acceptable casualty level among the women he is talking about, or that they were selected fairly or necessarily.
Nic Dakin
My hon. Friend makes the point clearly and soundly. My right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) made it absolutely clear this evening how unfair this Bill still is, and why anyone with any sense of justice and fairness should vote against it. It is outrageous for the Government to come here this evening with a mealy-mouthed effort to satisfy the women up and down this country. I urge all Members of this House to vote against the Bill.
Yasmin Qureshi
The Opposition and Government agree on many things in the pensions debate. It was the previous Labour Government who introduced the Turner commission that looked into the ageing population and the need to sort out pensions, but that is not to say that a certain group of women—about 500,000 of them—should be penalised. [Interruption.] Government Members are smiling and talking, but we are talking about 500,000 women who will be drastically affected by the pension cuts. Everybody talks about how we do not have enough money, but the Government have found tens of billions of pounds for quantitative easing, and they can waste £3 billion on the unnecessary transformation or reorganisation of the NHS, and yet they find it difficult to find money for those ladies.
The Labour Government also wanted to introduce auto-enrolment, but under our proposals many more people would have benefited through enrolling automatically at £5,000; now the figure is £7,475, which means that 600,000 people will not be able to enrol automatically in a pension scheme, which again will hit women disproportionately. The Government have indicated that the rise is in line with income tax, but we know that in the next few years or so the increase will continue, which will exclude 1.5 million to 2 million people, as compared with the Labour party’s original plan. The Government have also introduced a three-month waiting period before auto-enrolment, which they predict will result in 500,000 fewer people being automatically enrolled in a pension scheme. We estimate that each person will have about 11 different employers overall. I know that it is very late—there are only three minutes to go—but in light of what has happened and the fact that 500,000 women will be affected, along with 600,000 people who will be affected by the changes in auto-enrolment, I would urge the Government to reconsider.
Hon. Members have claimed that the Labour party did nothing about pensions when it was in power, but we should remember that in 1997, after years of Conservative government, the biggest challenge that we faced was tackling pensioner poverty and improving older people’s quality of life. Between 1979 and 1997, the state pension declined from 20% of average male earnings to 14%. In 1997, 29% of our pensioners were living in poverty, which was absolutely disgraceful. Between 1997 and 2010, Labour made huge achievements, of which we are proud. Average gross pensioner income increased by more than 40% in real terms, ahead of the growth in average earnings. More than 1 million people were lifted out of poverty, with no pensioner living on less than £130 a week, compared with £69 a week in 1997.
The winter fuel allowance, free off-peak travel on local buses for 11 million people over 60, free TV licences for the over-75s and an increased threshold to ensure that 60% of pensioners pay no tax at all have made a difference. Those policies cost money, and of course money was spent, but this Government might remember that, when they were in opposition, they agreed to all Labour’s expenditure plans. For them now to turn round and say that they did not know what was going to happen, or that they did not know how much money there was in the Treasury, is completely wrong. The coalition agreement stated that there would be cross-party consensus on this matter, and at that point, the Government knew exactly what the state of the finances was. At the last minute, however, those promises have been reneged on, and they are not the only ones—
Business without Debate
Petitions
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
I wish to present to the House the following petition, which was signed by Terry Gallogly of Lowther court in York and supported by a further 79 people who live in the city I represent.
The petition states:
The Petition of York Palestine Solidarity Campaign and the people of York,
Declares that the Petitioners note that since 1993 the Palestinian Authority has been involved in fruitless negotiations that have still not resulted in freedom; that the number of Israeli settlers living illegally on Palestinian territory has more than doubled, large areas of land have been stolen, over 600 checkpoints prevent freedom of movement to schools and hospitals, and a wall, declared illegal by an international court 7 years ago, continues to be built; and that this September, with no end to the Occupation in sight, and with the support of many countries, the Palestinian Authority will apply to the United Nations for recognition of Palestine as an independent state.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to formally recognise the right of the Palestinian people for self-determination and the right of Palestinian refugees to be able to return in freedom to their homes, and calls on the Government to work urgently for just solution in the region.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P000964]
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
I rise to present a petition from radio listeners throughout Merseyside. The petition was collected online and on the streets of Liverpool. I am sure that many more people would have liked to have signed it, but time is of the essence, which is why I am submitting it today. Nevertheless, there are in the region of 2,000 signatories to the petition, along with many testimonials.
The petition states:
The Petition of listeners to BBC Radio Merseyside,
Declares that the Petitioners oppose the 20% cut to BBC Radio Merseyside’s budget proposed by the BBC management; that the Petitioners note that BBC Radio Merseyside is the most listened to of the BBC’s 39 local radio stations outside of London with over 300,000 listeners who tune in for an average of 16.2 hours per week to popular programmes such as the Roger Phillips Show and the Billy Butler Show; further note that there are more staff at Radio 4 who work on the You and Yours programme than the whole of the current team of BBC Radio Merseyside; and that the Petitioners believe any efficiency savings should be fairly distributed, protecting local services and jobs where possible, in order to guarantee quality of programming which remains locally relevant and to preserve a service that is depended on by millions of listeners up and down the country, rather than maintaining the budgets of bigger channels and national radio stations.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to encourage the BBC to reconsider its cuts to BBC local radio.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P000965]
Marine Management Organisation
(13 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
I am grateful for the opportunity to raise an issue of great concern to my constituency and many maritime constituencies around our shores. The UK marine area covers an area three and a half times the UK land mass. It is rich in marine life and natural resources, which form the basis of human economic activities estimated to be worth £46 billion in 2005-06. Some of those pose a risk to the integrity of marine ecosystems, with impacts growing because of pressures such as large-scale marine renewable energy developments. Current activities have resulted in a crowded marine area, including licensed developments and areas of high fishing effort. Concerns over the degradation of the marine environment have led to a range of new policies, culminating in legislation and the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009.
The most significant aspect of that Act is the introduction of marine planning: a framework for decisions on marine activities aimed at reducing user conflict and encouraging an “ecosystem-based approach”. Planning, as described in the Act, aims to promote economic activity, as well as to integrate environmental protection into decision making. I have read the Hansard record of the Committee stage of that Bill and know that the then Minister was keen to ensure that the Bill achieved the right balance between sustainable development and environmental protection.
The Marine Management Organisation was created as the main delivery agency for the new planning and licensing regime, but Natural England and the Joint Nature Conservation Committee have the main role in the pre-designation of marine protection areas. I have met its chairman and chief executive, who are trying to deliver the aims of their organisation. All the comments I am about to make relate not to their performance in managing the organisation, but rather to the structure of the processes they have inherited.
The key challenge facing the marine planning system that I am experiencing in the port of Falmouth and the Carrick Roads is resolving the inevitable conflicts between policy objectives to ensure the integration of the social, economic and environmental needs of the area. Given the limited amount of time available to me, I will summarise the area briefly. It is the third largest natural harbour in the world; home of the last commercial oyster fishing fleet under sail in Europe; host to a thriving ship repair business; host to the Royal Fleet Auxiliary Service fleet; home to world-class super-yacht builders Pendennis; and home to a range of marine renewable businesses. It is also a centre of world-class yachting and sailing, including the home base of British Olympic sailor Ben Ainslie. It has a special area of conservation and areas of sites of special scientific interest. Having grown up there, I can testify to the huge improvements that have been made to the quality of water and the natural environment, which all Falmouthians very much value.
All concerned with the new marine planning process acknowledge the challenges involved. Putting 25% of England’s marine environment under “protection” in a relatively short time, given the severely resource-constrained situation the Government find themselves in, is deeply concerning. The uncertainties in planning decisions as a result of knowledge gaps, and sometimes competing scientific evidence is of particular concern. Effective marine management requires sound evidence and monitoring. A Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science report in 2010 entitled “Marine Survey Needs to Underpin Defra Policy” identifies a shortage of data necessary for marine planning. It also states that much of the evidence to be used in designation is subject to a medium or low level of confidence.
About 10% of the UK continental shelf is currently mapped in detail by survey or observation. To fill gaps, projects such as UKSeaMap produce broad-scale predictive habitat maps based on best available data, but confidence in some of the designations is as low as 20%. Direct mapping is expensive: the cost is estimated to be £210 million over seven years to map the rest of the UK’s regional seas to scales relevant to marine habitats, and there are limited funds to undertake such surveys.
Given the emphasis on evidence-based policy needing to be based on the best possible science, I want the Minister to consider the following recommendations about the guidance the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs gives to the MMO, which has the job of licensing activity in the marine environment, such as dredging, as well as establishing a network of marine protected areas, include marine conservation zones and reference sites. To undertake that work, the MMO is using the DEFRA-produced “A description of the marine planning system for England”. That is quite a general document and it would be relatively straightforward for the Minister to issue additional guidance to bring in the changes I recommend, which would not need any primary legislation.
The additional guidance I want the Minister to consider stems from the need to access the broadest and best possible evidence base for appropriate decisions to be taken. As the Minister is aware, Natural England and the JNCC are the Government’s statutory nature conservation advisers in the English and UK offshore marine area, yet there is a wealth of knowledge in coastal communities, academic institutions around the UK and even internationally that I believe should be used in addition to the expertise of those organisations. Marine science is a fast-growing academic discipline and the MMO should be enabled to extend the range of organisations and people that can provide scientific evidence to enable its independent decision making. The quality of evidence should be paramount, whether or not it comes from Natural England or the JNCC. Of course, any organisation or person would have to demonstrate their ability to carry out the task and their work should be open to scrutiny and challenge. I believe their evidence should be considered on a level playing field and on equal terms with that of Natural England and the JNCC.
I also want the Minister to consider extending the limited appeals system. Generally speaking, the terrestrial planning system does not extend below the low tide mark, so the normal planning appeals process does not apply. The 2009 Act does not appear to set out an equivalent appeals process for planning decisions, although it does allow for one to be set out by regulations under section 37 for appeals against licensing decisions. I note the Department of Energy and Climate Change and DEFRA’s recent consultation on licensing under part 4, including appeals on decisions.
The marine planning system for England March 2011 document states in paragraph 5.61 that appeals against the refusal of terrestrial planning permission and inquiries are dealt with by the Planning Inspectorate and it goes on to say that the Planning Inspectorate could be involved in independent investigations within the marine planning system. If an independent investigation is required, an investigator will be appointed to provide advice and recommendations on how issues may be resolved and plans may be improved. The final format that the investigation will take is decided by the Secretary of State on the advice of the MMO. It is essential that these powers should be made available in the predetermination stage of marine protection designations as well as in relation to decisions the MMO will make post-designation in the management of marine protected areas.
The potential economic and social impact of designation of marine protected areas on coastal communities is so significant that it demands an appropriate appeals process. Decisions of such magnitude would not be made on the land without an appropriate appeals process. With the recent publication of the list of potential sites, there has been a huge outcry in my constituency at the potential designation of part of the Fal estuary as a marine protected area and a reference site.
Falmouth town council is united in strongly opposing the plans, stating that
“the proposal…threatens 350 years of history and shipping power in this port”.
The impact of the designation upon the recreational use of the Fal estuary has also aroused anger. Referring to the effect of the designation on a long and proud history of sailing boat racing on the Fal, Falmouth race officer Walter Amos has stated:
“The proposal would put an end to 150 years of tradition, cause enormous resentment, and have considerable economic consequences.”
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
My hon. Friend is making a strong case, particularly regarding reference sites. The Minister and I served our time on the Bill that became the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, and what my hon. Friend says is absolutely right: what we need in relation to reference sites is consultation and the opportunity for appeals, as with my constituency and the Cape Bank reference site. Low-impact fishing takes place there at the moment, but that would be stopped, with the unintended consequence of discouraging the very type of fishing that I should have thought the Act was intended to protect.
Sarah Newton
I thank my hon. Friend for that very helpful intervention.
Richard Gates, the Falmouth town centre manager, has added his voice to the chorus of local residents opposing the plans, commenting:
“We live in a beautiful part of the country and certainly are very environmentally aware but this cannot be at the detriment of people’s livelihoods and leisure when many people are working so hard to develop the area”.
I am sure that Falmouth and, as my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) has pointed out, other parts of Cornwall are not the only coastal communities that feel that the current recommended sites for marine protected areas are inappropriate because they fail to meet the fundamental aim of creating areas that strike the right balance between sustainable economic, social and environmental protection.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
My hon. Friend’s description of her beautiful constituency could be substituted for mine, with Aldeburgh and the River Alde. Is it not the case that constituents feel that designations are being slapped on top of existing special protection areas simply because the data are available, rather than other parts of the coast being sought that could easily fulfil the criteria for marine conservation zones?
Sarah Newton
I am very grateful for those comments. My hon. Friend anticipates a point that I was going to make but now do not need to make. I think that issue is a real problem.
Perhaps it is not surprising that this has happened because the lead agencies tasked with drawing up the list of potential sites, the JNCC and Natural England, have as their primary purpose environmental protection and conservation. What is not part of their remit is what the Act clearly set out to achieve—balancing the social, economic and environmental needs of communities.
I appreciate that the Minister has inherited the current process and would not have designed one that led to the current situation, where there is so much genuine outrage and concern, but that is where we are today. It is a matter of great importance to coastal communities that measures are urgently taken to enable greater use of all the available evidence base by decision makers, rather than their relying almost entirely on Natural England and the JNCC. An open, transparent appeals process for both pre and post-designation decision making needs to be established urgently.
Given that the deadline for the establishment of the marine protected areas sites is 2012 and that the sites are being consulted on as we speak, I hope the Minister can reassure me that he will consider these recommendations so that the implementation of the very worthy aims of the Act command the respect of coastal communities. It is vital that people who might be adversely affected by the implementation of the Act are thoroughly involved, which they have not been so far. Making the new planning system work depends on building a consensus and support that can be achieved only if all concerned have confidence in the system that is used to reach conclusions. Sadly, that is very much missing at the moment. Politicians are elected to use their judgment and are democratically accountable. I hope that the Minister can reassure us tonight that he will exercise his judgment and democratic accountability to ensure that there is a common-sense approach to marine planning.
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
I thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) on securing the debate and thank her for allowing me to participate in it. I am well aware that the setting up of the MMO in the previous Parliament was a contentious issue that caused frustration in my constituency.
My predecessor fought valiantly to convince her own Labour Front-Bench team in DEFRA that the MMO should be located in the south-west. After all, the peninsula has 30% of the UK’s coastline and Plymouth is a global player with the Royal Navy, the Plymouth Marine Laboratory, Plymouth university, the Marine Biological Association, the Sir Alister Hardy Foundation for Ocean Science and the National Marine Aquarium all based in my Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport constituency. Plymouth is a fishing port as well. I suspect that the decision to locate the MMO in Newcastle was a political one, aimed at satisfying Labour Members of Parliament in the north. With only three Labour Members of Parliament in Devon and Cornwall by 2005, I am afraid my predecessor’s views were rather disregarded.
I suspect that things have gone too far and that it would be inappropriate to move the MMO to Plymouth or the south-west, especially in the present financial climate when we have to be very careful with taxpayers’ money. We need to ensure that money is spent wisely. However, will my hon. Friend the Minister consider whether a small satellite office might be set up in Plymouth, or if some funding could be given to the university to host a few officials who could liaise with the MMO and make sure that the south-west is well represented?
In the short time available to me, I want to welcome the MMO’s commitment to evidence-based and transparent decision making. I welcome the proposals to develop Falmouth port, as this will deliver a cluster approach to economic development in the south-west. Like Plymouth, it is of regional economic significance and could potentially be a key test of the MMO’s commitment to sustainable development, but I seek an assurance from the Minister that the MMO will work with its statutory conservation advisers to scrutinise the quality of evidence and ensure that robust processes are in place.
I was concerned to see a recent independent review of Natural England’s quality assurance processes that outlined a number of significant issues in relation to advice on the marine environment. The review contained a range of recommendations so that Natural England is brought into line with recognised good practice. Will the Minister assure the House that Natural England is committed to working with the MMO to provide high quality advice that is subject to independent peer review and scrutiny?
The way we manage our seas is becoming increasingly important as they become a barometer for global warming. If they want to carry all interested parties and users of the seas with them, Ministers will need to ensure that there is a significant amount of public consultation.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) on securing the debate on such an important issue for her constituents. I thank other hon. Members for their contributions.
The Marine Management Organisation was created just 18 months ago, with cross-party support. As a non-departmental public body, it carries out its function with technical expertise, impartiality and transparency, and at arm’s length from Ministers, but it is accountable to both Ministers and Parliament. At the outset, I pay tribute to the MMO and to its staff. Its remit is very diverse. It continues to mature and is tackling a range of challenging issues. It manages our fisheries; it is delivering marine planning; it is working with others to create and manage a network of marine protected areas and to carry out marine licensing. Within its broad remit, the MMO is required to manage its activities with the objective of making a contribution to sustainable development, in a consistent and co-ordinated manner and taking account of all relevant facts and matters.
The MMO’s decisions should be impartial and based on best available evidence, taking into account the potential benefits and anticipated adverse impacts. It also needs to ensure that its decisions comply with statutory requirements under UK and EU legislation and are consistent with our international obligations. All that sounds straightforward in theory, but the decisions that the MMO has to make, whether about opening and closing fisheries, licensing construction or applications to the European fisheries fund have real-world impacts and directly affect people’s livelihoods, something that I believe the MMO is acutely aware of. The MMO will never be able to please all the people all the time, and decisions will sometimes adversely affect some more than others, but for that reason the MMO stresses the importance of transparency and impartiality. The MMO has been exemplary in ensuring that the information it bases its decisions on is publicly available, and it is helpful for people to be able to see how it makes its decisions, particularly when they are relatively controversial.
One cornerstone of the 2009 Act was to introduce a streamlined licensing system and marine planning in order to contribute to the sustainable development of our seas. That streamlined licensing system was introduced in April, the first marine plans will be in place in 2013 and, to guide the MMO, DEFRA has produced statutory guidance on sustainable development. It refers to the UK marine policy statement, which was adopted in March as the framework for planning and decision making in the marine environment in order to ensure a consistent approach throughout the UK and to contribute to sustainable development.
At the same time, DEFRA produced the description for the marine planning process in England so that the MMO could take it forward and produce subsequent guidance on how marine planning will work, and it is an absolute priority of this Government to ensure that, when we view our seas, we do so holistically. For too long we have looked down the silos of fisheries, conservation or marine licensing, but now, at last, we are developing the means to look at the marine environment as a whole. That is long overdue, and it will assist the constituents of my hon. Friends and others, who at the moment have to follow an entirely application-led process. Marine planning, like terrestrial planning, will be a great advantage to them.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
The hon. Gentleman refers to involvement with other parts of the United Kingdom, and there is an impact on the devolved Administrations of Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, because they have responsibility for fishing, so can he confirm that he will consult the devolved Administrations to ensure that there is a uniform approach to fishing?
Richard Benyon
I make it my business to confer with my devolved colleagues regularly, and I will do so on Thursday and Friday in Luxembourg and with the Northern Ireland Minister and other devolved Ministers in Newcastle in the very near future. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I make it my business to ensure that we, as a UK group of Ministers, talk together and recognise that we cannot look at our seas just in terms of the countries that make up the United Kingdom; we have to look at them holistically.
My hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth mentioned the appeals process, and one important feature of the new licensing system is the introduction of just such a process. An applicant for a marine licence will be able to appeal against a decision made by the licensing authority on their application. That includes a decision not to grant a licence, conditions attached to a licence or the length of a licence, and the Planning Inspectorate—PINS—will manage and decide appeals against licensing decisions made by the licensing authority.
We have closely aligned our processes to those for terrestrial planning appeals, as we expect there to be benefits in developing a system that is consistent with current practice. For example, a familiar process should be easier for PINS to implement and for appellants to understand and follow.
Similarly, for marine planning, as my hon. Friend said, there will be the option for independent investigations of a marine plan, and PINS will carry out those, too. Should an independent investigation be needed, it will take place after the consultation on a proposed marine plan and before adoption by the Secretary of State.
Clarity, transparency and the involvement of as many stakeholders and communities as possible are important in marine planning and licensing. Similarly, although the MMO relies on advice from Natural England and the Joint Nature Conservation Committee as statutory consultees when making many of its decisions, it none the less draws on a wider evidence base in delivering its work. Naturally, this includes research commissioned by DEFRA and carried out by the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science and many other expert organisations, as well as studies commissioned directly by the MMO.
Indeed, the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) is a well-known international hub of expertise in marine science, and precisely those resources are available to and used by the MMO for the evidence that it needs. It is essential that it should be able to have access to the best information available, including information submitted during public consultations. I can give my hon. Friends the absolute assurance that, in our reviews of the performance of the MMO, we will ensure that it is taking all the best evidence available and is not only listening to the statutory conservation bodies but registering a serious attempt to widen its reach in terms of the advice it receives.
My hon. Friend may also wish for some clarification of the marine conservation zone process. The identification of MCZs has been stakeholder-led operation from the outset, managed by the statutory nature conservation bodies, Natural England and the JNCC. The statutory nature conservation bodies established four regional MCZ projects—Balanced Seas, Finding Sanctuary, Net Gain and the Irish sea conservation zones—and these provided advice about which MCZs should be brought forward. I can tell hon. Members, if they have not witnessed it, that it has been a tortuous process with many hours of work, and it has brought forward some suggestions at this stage.
Each project established stakeholder groups made up of a variety of key interested parties in their regions to examine the evidence and put forward site recommendations and associated impact assessments. To that end, it is the stakeholders who have been responsible for developing the recommendations on location, conservation objectives and management measures options of any MCZs in their region, and they have had a real opportunity to shape and influence the decisions that the Government will make.
On 8 September, the regional MCZ projects submitted their final MCZ recommendations to the independent Science Advisory Panel and the statutory nature conservation bodies for review. In total, there are 127 recommended MCZ sites. Across all four projects, over 2,500 interviews were conducted with stakeholders, and detailed discussions took place during the course of 155 stakeholder meetings. Over 1 million individuals’ interests have been represented through the MCZ stakeholder groups. Once the advice from the panel and the statutory nature conservation bodies is received, Ministers—I stress, Ministers themselves—will examine all the evidence before deciding which sites to put forward for public consultation. The public consultation will be yet another opportunity for stakeholders to present their views on proposals and for any further new evidence to be submitted. Only after all this evidence has been collated and reviewed will Ministers designate MCZs.
I conclude by reiterating the scale of the challenge facing the MMO and Ministers as we seek to grapple with exceedingly complex issues that, as my hon. Friends have eloquently noted, stir a great deal of interest and passion around coastal Britain. I look forward to continuing that vigorous discussion as we move forward through the process of designating marine conservation zones and managing our vital marine resources.
Question put and agreed to.
Westminster Hall
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Green Belt (England)
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Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Mr Crausby. The number of Members attending this debate shows concern about the future of our green belt among not only our constituents but Members. As individuals, we understand and accept the importance of the green belt and the need to ensure that it is not only protected but enhanced.
At the outset, I will make what some might call a declaration of interest, although it is not. It is important to put on the record that my partner—that is the appropriate word, although it is one I do not particularly like to use—is a director of Persimmon and sits on its board. He would be first to agree that I have never been in anybody’s pocket, and much as he may try to suggest otherwise, he continues to exert little, if any, influence in my life, or control over it. It is important to make that declaration, however, given that allegations were made yesterday about the Conservative party being in the pocket of donors and developers. Nevertheless, the fact that so many Conservative Members are attending the debate this morning shows that we are our own people and speak on behalf of our constituents.
As hon. Members will appreciate, the green belt has a long and noble history. It was first developed in London in 1938, and Birmingham and Sheffield later took up that good idea. In 1955, the then Government urged all towns and cities to create green belts—bands of land around their environs designed specifically to restrict urban growth. Today, our green belts are more than just that; they are our green lungs and open spaces enjoyed by all. They are loved, cared for and valued by communities throughout England and no doubt in Wales—there is only one green belt in Wales—and Scotland. Today, however, we are discussing the green belt in England, because of the various concerns that have been raised about Government policy.
Particularly nowadays, the green belt defines communities, because it halts urban growth and maintains the identity of towns, villages and cities. My constituency provides a good example of how losing part of the green belt can lead to the sort of urban sprawl that it was deemed right to restrict in the 1930s, and which I believe should continue to be restricted. A person driving along the A6005, the road from Nottingham to Long Eaton in Derbyshire, will pass through communities such as Beeston, Chilwell and Toton, but they may not realise that they have left the city council boundary and entered my constituency and the area of Broxtowe borough council. Almost without break, there are only housing developments along the way. Many hon. Members will have similar examples in their constituencies of where the loss of the green belt has led to an unacceptable urban sprawl.
In Broxtowe, one can also see where the green belt has brought profound benefits to many communities. Along the B600, for example, Nuthall is desperately trying to retain its identity and not become part of the urban sprawl, even though that has already happened in part. The village of Watnall is keen to retain its identity along with that of Kimberley, but it is increasingly seeing the encroachment of urban sprawl. As one leaves Watnall, however, one sees the most beautiful stretch of countryside. I was born and bred in Nottinghamshire, so I feel qualified to say that although parts of my county do not contain the most beautiful pieces of countryside, where there are areas of beauty, we value and love them more. The area outside Watnall is particularly beautiful, and if hon. Members want to see a photograph of it, I urge them to visit my website. It is an historic and ancient piece of land, and those familiar with the writings of D. H. Lawrence will recognise the Moorgreen reservoir, which lies outside the boundaries of my constituency. That stretch of land, which undulates as it leads up to Greasley with St Mary’s church in the distance, is beautiful. Even more importantly, however, it defines that area of Watnall from the top of my constituency—Greasley, Moorgreen and Newthorpe, which many would say are unfortunately sprawled together. That stretch of green belt land perfectly illustrates why we must continue to protect our green belt, and why we must ensure that we do not allow development on it, and certainly not on the scale proposed in my constituency.
I do not have anything other than green belt in my constituency, because there is no greenfield land. I do not wish to insult any of the lobby groups that have made representations to this House or newspapers such as The Daily Telegraph, which has launched a campaign, but there has been a lack of understanding about the important distinction between greenfield land and green belt land. Green belt land has always been specially protected, and the Government are determined that it will continue to enjoy that protection. It marks the land out as special and different from greenfield land, which does not enjoy such protection. There has been a misunderstanding and misrepresentation of that profound distinction.
Mr Gray
I congratulate my hon. Friend on her comments so far and entirely agree with them all. However, as the representative of a constituency that has no green belt land but vast acreage of green fields, I do not necessarily agree that green belt land should be given special preference over greenfield land. We ought to protect our countryside, green and pleasant as it is, irrespective of whether it is green belt land or greenfield.
Anna Soubry
My hon. Friend speaks with great passion on that issue, but this debate is about the green belt, and I hope he will forgive me if I continue to highlight the appallingly named draft national planning policy framework. All hon. Members, whatever party they come from, will agree that one problem with planning is the abundance of jargon. If ever an offence were to be created it could perhaps be that of the overuse of jargon and terminology that is completely lost on most ordinary people. I congratulate the Government, however, on specifically writing a document in plain English. Let us have more of that when it comes to planning. Our green belt deserves special protection. I hear my hon. Friend’s desire to protect his green fields, but green belt land is different, because it exists specifically to protect communities and prevent urban sprawl.
What has led to the situation in my constituency and the proposal to build up to 4,000 homes on the green belt in the most densely populated borough in the county, if not the east midlands? There are brownfield sites in my constituency, but enough for only 2,000 houses. The borough council has accepted a target of almost 6,000 homes, and the green belt is the only place where they can be built. I am opposed to that, and believe that I represent the overwhelming majority of my constituents in that opposition. It is a peculiar situation, given that the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, the Leader of the House and every Minister I have met who is concerned about planning policy, has made it clear, in questions, speeches and so on, that the Government do not intend to alter the special protection afforded to our green belt. All hon. Members will agree that that is the right and proper thing to do.
As you see, Mr Crausby, my copy of the draft national planning policy framework is well thumbed, but pages 38 and 39 contain Government statements on the special need to continue to protect our green belt:
“The Government attaches great importance to Green Belts…Once Green Belts have been defined, local planning authorities should plan positively to enhance the beneficial use of the Green Belt… Inappropriate development is, by definition, harmful to the Green Belt and should not be approved except in very special circumstances.”
On page 40, paragraph 144 states:
“A local planning authority should regard the construction of new buildings as inappropriate in Green Belt.”
Unfortunately, my council plans to build or to allow the development of some 4,000 new buildings on my local green belt.
Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. Are not the principles established under the Town and Country Planning Act 1947 of creating the green belt, protecting the countryside and, most importantly, creating the lungs for our cities as vital today as they were in 1947?
Anna Soubry
The Prime Minister and others have made it clear that there will be no change to the special protection afforded to the green belt. It is unfortunate that there has been a high level of scaremongering. If we believe what has been said by the Prime Minister and his Ministers—no doubt this Minister will give us yet more assurances—that does not square with the notion that our green belt is in any way under threat. I stress again that we are talking about the green belt. Unfortunately, it is under threat in my constituency, and I believe that it is in many other constituencies across the country.
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)
My hon. Friend makes a valid point, but does she agree that her constituency is fortunate to have a green belt? Many of us represent constituencies that do not have one. In my constituency, the city of Southampton, a very large city, has no green belt whatever. That puts the green fields on the edge of the city, which separate it from villages such as Nursling, Rownhams and Chilworth, under extreme stress.
Anna Soubry
I absolutely understand the point that my hon. Friend makes, but the great joy, as I see it, in the policy as outlined in the document that we are discussing is that it will enable communities to come together and work together to consider how best they can encourage growth and development in their areas. The two are not incompatible. I shall move on to a good example of sustainable development.
Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on obtaining the debate and on the powerful case that she is making. She has mentioned the word “sustainable”. Would she, like me, welcome from the Minister today a statement that the presumption in favour of sustainable development, which has attracted so much interest, is overridden by green belt policy and should play no part in green belt policy and that the protection for the green belt will remain as strong as it was under the existing policy, if not stronger?
Anna Soubry
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend when he makes that point with such passion, but in some communities people may be content to have development on their green belt. That may be what they wish, if they see the benefit in their area. That is the beauty of this document, combined with the Localism Bill. That will enable communities to form their own neighbourhood plans, which may lead in turn to development on their green belt. In my opinion, if that is what communities want, that is what they should get. Sustainable development and some building on the green belt are not completely in opposition.
I argue that in my constituency we are in a different position, because we have so little green belt, which has been eroded by development over the years. If people look at a map of my constituency, they will see the spaces between the city and the communities that make up my constituency, which have their identities protected by the green belt and therefore retain their identities by virtue of the green belt.
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
It seems to me very dangerous to allow green belt land to be developed, even if very nice local people are in favour of it, because although this generation may like it, the next generation will have to deal with the problems.
Anna Soubry
Many people in my constituency would completely echo my hon. Friend’s comments. Certainly in relation to Broxtowe, I completely agree with him. I can see little merit in any surrendering of the green belt in my constituency, for all the reasons that I have outlined.
Sustainable development has got a very bad name, whereas it should have a very good name. I shall give a quick example of how sustainable development could enhance the lives of people not just in my constituency, but in other parts of Greater Nottingham and, indeed, in other counties, such as Lincolnshire, Derbyshire and some parts of Leicestershire. It has to do with improvement of the A453. I will not dwell too long on this, but the A453 is the road that serves the city of Nottingham, and it is a disgrace. It needs widening, improving, dualling and making safe. It needs to be a modern road to bring jobs, prosperity and growth to not only the city of Nottingham, but my constituency, because the enterprise zone that the Government have announced lies both within the city and within the borough of Broxtowe in my constituency.
A considerable amount of money is required to make that improvement to the A453, and unfortunately the Government, because of the economic mess that we inherited, cannot at the moment find the money to improve it, but the county council has offered some money. It has begun to work with Rushcliffe borough council, which has also offered some money. Unfortunately, the city of Nottingham has yet to join in with that idea, but it strikes me that that road could be improved as part of a radical rethink involving councils coming together to consider proper sustainable development. That might mean a substantial number of new homes being built at the city end of it, but the infrastructure would be improved at the same time, because the A453 would be improved. Such an improvement would link to existing public transport, given the railway station at the other end, East Midlands Parkway. Rather than alienating or destroying our environment, any such development would embrace and enhance our environment. The housing development that I want to see would be exciting and innovative. It would provide great homes for people and great places for people to enjoy and for children to play in.
That is all in sharp contrast with the sort of development that has blighted my constituency and, I suspect, many others. I shall give an example, but I want to make it clear that this is no reflection on the people. A constituency such as mine is a great place to live, because of the people who live in it and the homes that they make, but those homes are often in frankly unacceptable developments. I shall provide a quick example of the tired old policy planning that we have seen in Broxtowe. I am referring to a development opposite Bilborough college. The houses there—the homes that people have made—are splendid and lovely, but the roads are too narrow. The whole development was constructed under the previous Administration’s appalling building regulations, which often led to over-dense developments. As I have said, the roads are too narrow. There was no understanding of the modern lives that people live, so we find cars parked up on pavements. There was no appreciation of the fact that the college opposite does not allow students to park on its premises, so they park all over people’s front drives, again cluttering up the pavements. There is no public transport—can you believe it?—to serve the development. It was in effect just plonked down, and I fear that that is a common feature not only in my constituency, but throughout the country.
Why are plans given the go-ahead or de facto given the go-ahead in my constituency by my borough council? I should say at this point that my borough council is controlled by a coalition of Labour and the Liberal Democrats. I am sure that the Minister will join me in urging his Liberal Democrat colleagues in Broxtowe seriously to reconsider the route that they have decided to go along when it comes to future growth in my constituency. In short—again, this will be familiar to a number of hon. Members—they formed something called the Greater Nottingham joint planning advisory board. Such a term would strike terror into the hearts of many people, if they could even begin to understand it. Bizarrely, the board is chaired by Broxtowe. It accepted the previous Government’s top-down housing target. It then decided, having seen that the coalition Government were going to implement their policy to abolish the regional spatial strategy and those top-down housing targets, to continue to accept the figures that had been revised by the Government. As Members know, we sought to abolish the RSS, but the High Court would not allow us to, so until we pass the Localism Bill, we are left with the RSS housing figures. That has meant that the board has accepted the target of 52,049 homes for what is called Greater Nottingham. Of those, 5,765 are to be built in Broxtowe.
Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con)
On the RSS figures and the High Court hearing, does my hon. Friend accept that the Localism Bill is emerging legislation, so if local authorities had the, shall we say, strength of character—I cannot use the word I want to use here—to stand behind the emerging legislation, they could ignore the RSS numbers the previous Government forced on them?
Anna Soubry
I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. I have certainly taken the view—I may be wrong, so I am pleased that another Member agrees with me—that local authorities are absolutely not bound by the RSS figures, and if they have the courage, they can break free of them. Indeed, I was going on to give the example of Rushcliffe, which has taken exactly that route. For some reason, however, my local authority, along with other local authorities, has decided to accept the figures, even though it can break free of them. It is not waiting for the great powers the Localism Bill will give local communities or for the planning policy framework to come fully into force.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
My constituency is in London and has a heck of a lot of green belt and green land. My constituents and I are particularly worried that when regional strategies come to an end in the rest of the country, our constituency will still have to comply with the London plan, which imposes a lot on local planning. We are extremely worried that the London plan will impose things on local people that they just do not want. I am thinking, in particular, of councils.
Anna Soubry
Again, I am grateful for that contribution. I may be wrong, but I think the planning policy framework and the Localism Bill will encourage councils to work together, which is critical. It might be asked whether Broxtowe is not working with the city of Nottingham, Erewash, parts of Ashfield and Gedling council to form the joint planning advisory board, and it is right that they are working together. However, it is a question of getting the balance right so that councils are not in the pockets of a metropolitan area or more powerful councils. It is about councils having equality among themselves and working together in the manner I tried to describe in relation to the development of the A453. It should be about the county council and the borough and district councils coming together and taking a broad, sensible view for their mutual benefit. They should look at how we can have housing and how we can improve our environment and our infrastructure—in other words, proper sustainable development.
To return to the issue of Broxtowe for a moment, whatever the council might say now, it has in effect accepted the 5,765 figure, which is in all the documentation, in the press releases and in the letters that were sent out to some residents. It has actually designated its preferred sites. There are to be 800 homes on the green belt between Toton and the town of Stapleford. If we look at a map, we see that that green belt perfectly defines communities and stops sprawl, but the borough council says it is the preferred site for the development of 800 homes. Another site is to the north of Stapleford, near the village of Trowell. Many say that Trowell has lost much of its wonderful village status, which could be seen in the 1950s, when the village was chosen to mark the festival of Britain celebrations. That green belt land defines those communities, as well as providing beautiful open green spaces and wonderful views for people to enjoy. The irony is that the borough council says this is a preferred site for hundreds of new homes.
My other beef is the complete lack of real consultation. In this day and age, authorities cannot just impose homes and new housing on people in an authoritarian way; they have to consult people and work with them. I went to a number of public meetings in my constituency, and people’s overwhelming cry was that the proposals were a done deal, and they felt cheated of any form of consultation. Real anger was expressed in those meetings, and rightly so.
Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the issue is not only where the homes go, but the assumptions behind why we need so many houses in the first place? Those assumptions or guidelines are never consulted on, but they are crucial.
Anna Soubry
Again, I am extremely grateful for that positive intervention. My hon. Friend makes a valid point. I hear stories of how different local authorities are stepping away from the figures and determining their own figures. One of the assurances I hope to obtain from the Minister is that local authorities will be able to determine their own housing needs and will not blindly accept figures imposed without consultation by bodies whose work those authorities have had no input in and no say over.
That is exactly the approach being taken by Rushcliffe borough council, which borders my borough council in Broxtowe. It is perhaps a surprise that Rushcliffe borough council is Conservative run. It has stepped away in large part from the Greater Nottingham joint planning advisory board, of which it was once a fully fledged member. Rushcliffe accepts that there may be some build on some of its green belt, because it is keen to have growth and sustainable development. However, instead of imposing that on people, as has, I am afraid, happened in my constituency, Rushcliffe has done the exact opposite; it has gone out to people and it has had workshops and full consultations with communities. It has not only consulted parish councils, but drilled right down into communities, so that people can come along, join the debate and take a real, meaningful part in the process of determining what communities want, not only now, but in the future.
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
The hon. Lady is expanding on her case brilliantly. Is not the big hope for the transformation the Government are undertaking that planning will in future happen with communities, not to them, reflecting local need, not centralist tendencies?
Anna Soubry
I thank the hon. Gentleman. That is absolutely right. There are many examples of that. My hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) is heading up a neighbourhood plan in her constituency, where there has, understandably, been resistance to the spread of Truro. She tells me that if people in that part of Cornwall are to get the growth and jobs they want and need so much, they will have to take a more imaginative, co-operative view, which is exactly what she wants to achieve. In keeping with the approach the hon. Gentleman rightly identified, she is working with communities, not alienating them, as has been the tendency in the past and as is the case, I am afraid, in my constituency.
Bob Stewart
On that point, why can we not take the words
“presumption in favour of sustainable development”
out of the planning policy framework and insert the words “presumption in favour of local consultation before some planning decisions”? That would be a great idea, although others might disagree.
Anna Soubry
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I am sure the Minister has heard his comments, and he will no doubt respond in his speech. However, I wish to bring my remarks to an end.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
My hon. Friend and neighbour and I are separated by some green belt, which perhaps gives us both an incentive to protect it even more. Before she winds up her powerful remarks, however, may I direct her to another comment in the draft planning policy framework, which says the advantage of the green belt is that it assists urban regeneration by encouraging the recycling of derelict land? Does she agree that before anyone even thinks of taking the easy option of taking away some beautiful green fields, they should tackle some of the problem contaminated brownfield sites we all have in our constituencies, which are not used? Moving those sites back into use would be a far more effective way of proceeding.
Anna Soubry
As ever, my hon. Friend makes a brilliant point, and I am grateful to have him as my neighbour, with or without any green belt that may separate us. He makes an important point, which my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) may hear, about the value of sustainable development, which is not just about building more homes: it is much more than that. It is about bringing jobs and enhancing the environment. That may mean clearing up sites, as my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) said, so that homes may be built, or business be generated or regenerated. There are many sites, such as the Stanton works, with which my hon. Friend and I are familiar, where hundreds if not thousands of people once worked. We need that imaginative approach, which lies at the heart of sustainable development as defined in the framework and identified in the Localism Act 2011.
I suspect that what is happening in my constituency is not unique, and that is something that concerns us all.
Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)
My hon. Friend is making a great case for the green belt, but housing numbers are an issue and people need to live somewhere. In our towns and city centres there is living accommodation above shops. All sorts of accommodation often lies empty. It would do towns and city centres good if those properties were refurbished and lived in. That would take pressure off the green belt and green fields.
Anna Soubry
I completely agree with that helpful intervention. We need a revolution, in the best sense of the word, in the way we provide the new homes that so many people want, without damaging the environment: on the contrary, we can enhance it as we provide those homes. However, we must continue to protect the green belt, because of its special features.
Nigel Mills
I want to ask my hon. Friend a question that I know is of concern to her as well as me, about the impact of open-cast mining on the green belt. Last week, sadly, an application for open-cast mining in the area of Smalley in my constituency was approved by Derbyshire county council. Does my hon. Friend agree that homes are not the only problem that threatens the green belt? There are also the despoiling open-cast coal mines, which, instead of dealing with contaminated land that needs to be cleaned up, merely rip up green fields. We should have protection from those.
Anna Soubry
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Paragraph 145 of the draft national planning policy framework unfortunately includes mineral extraction—the very sort of open-cast mining that blights Amber Valley and sits hanging over my constituency, between Cossall and Trowell. The paragraph makes it clear that such works are not necessarily inappropriate in green belt land. I respectfully suggest to the Government that they are wholly inappropriate in green belt land. I know that open-cast mines can be restored, and I therefore understand why they are in the paragraph, but in the short term—and, it could be argued, in the much longer term—they are scourges of the countryside. They are horrible open scars. Open-cast mining and green belt are irreconcilable. I hope that the Government will consider that paragraph and do all that they can to protect the green belt from open-cast mining.
I hope that the Minister will make it clear that the Government take the view that, as my hon. Friend the Member for High Peak (Andrew Bingham) said, local authorities do not have to accept the regional spatial strategy figures, and that they have the freedom and power to determine their own housing need. Planning policy statement 3 makes it clear that in determining housing need local authorities should take into account evidence of sustainable land. I may be wrong, and I hope for some clarification, but I believe that when a local authority considers its housing need it must take into account the land available to it—especially sustainable land. That means that it must consider its green belt. It cannot be the case that homes can be built on the scale in question in Broxtowe on green belt. It is not appropriate or compatible. It is imperative that councils consider the land available to them, and that if it is green belt land it is effectively a no-go area.
Having spoken to colleagues and others, I believe that there is a great danger that what is happening in Broxtowe will be allowed to take place in other parts of England, and that we need a transitional period to make sure that we protect our green belt before the Localism Act 2011 and the policy framework come into full effect. Currently many authorities are rushing through their local plans, ignoring the 2011 Act, the framework and the certainty provided by the statements made by the Prime Minister and many others that our green belt will continue to have special protection. What Broxtowe is doing presents a danger of a presumption in favour of development on green belt, which means it will be completely vulnerable to over-keen developers and heavy-handed councils.
I am grateful to have had the opportunity to speak for so long. It is the overwhelming desire of the hon. Members present, and others throughout the House—because it is the overwhelming view of the majority of people in this country, the constituents we represent—that the green belt should be considered special. It needs to be protected and enhanced, so that it is here not just for our generation but for generations yet to come.
Mr David Crausby (in the Chair)
I intend to call the two Front Benchers at 20 to 11. There are a number of potential speakers, and I may not get to call them all.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) on obtaining this important debate. I agree with much, if not all, of what she said. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Mr Crausby.
There is housing need in this country; people need to live somewhere. However, that cannot be at the expense of concreting over the countryside. It is essential, in particular, that we should protect the green belt. I welcome what the hon. Lady said about the Minister writing to local authorities like mine to confirm the point about the RSS figures. That is important, because it will determine exactly what the policies are. She gave a good description of concerns about local authority attitudes. Local authorities need to know what numbers are needed, so that councils such as Sefton, which is drawing up its core strategy at the moment, can determine within the strategy whether there is even a need to look at the green belt. I am sure that the same considerations apply to the constituencies of many right hon. and hon. Members here today.
Green belt surrounds the many towns and small villages that make up Sefton Central. The town of Crosby is surrounded on two sides, at least, by green belt, which separates the village of Little Crosby from Great Crosby. The land up the Sefton coast to Hightown and then on to Formby is nearly all green belt, with the village of Ince Blundell sitting in between. In the Sefton Council draft core strategy, much of that is indicated as potential development sites. The same is true in the east of my constituency, around Maghull, Lydiate, Aintree and Melling. The people in those areas have objected in very large numbers to the prospect of large-scale housing developments and business use. I am sure that those comments will be familiar to other hon. Members. The concern is that much of that land is already owned by would-be developers, by people who have a history in development and by landowners who are not currently using that land. That land is nearly all grade 1 or grade 2 agricultural land. We have some of the best farming land in the country in Sefton, and the prospect of it being developed and built on is a big worry, given the concerns about food availability.
Bob Stewart
At the moment, one can have planning permission for three years and an extension of three years. Would it not be a good idea to say, “You have planning permission for three years, and you have to do it within that time,” and include completion dates and phases in the planning permission, which would also help the local plan?
Bill Esterson
I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman—it is a fair point—but I am not sure that that is quite what I was getting to regarding the ownership of agricultural land in my constituency.
The hon. Member for Broxtowe mentioned the potential for councils coming forward with plans on the green belt, and gave some examples. There is an example in the village of Lydiate, where recently plans were proposed. They were for a development in the green belt outside a clearly defined urban area, and had the support of planning officers. The Leeds and Liverpool canal runs through my constituency, and the plans were for a marina on the canal. On the face of it, it was a sensible development suggestion, but it was in the green belt and would have broken a clear barrier between the urban and green belt areas. It was worrying to see planning officers recommending its approval. Fortunately, the planning committee turned it down and the planning inspectorate appeal upheld the decision, saying that it would clearly be an inappropriate development in the green belt.
As the hon. Lady said, the guidance is clear in the policy framework: the benefits have significantly to outweigh the harm for planning to be appropriate in the green belt. That has been the case for many years, and it is rightly still set out clearly in the national planning policy framework. The worry is that councils will go ahead and try to push through development in the green belt that, under that guidance, we would all consider inappropriate. The question is how we find ways to make it difficult for councils to develop in the green belt and so protect it, while addressing the need for housing, which, for many young people, is unaffordable—many people are still living at home. There is also a shortage of sheltered accommodation for our growing elderly population. We have to bear in mind such questions when considering this issue. Sustainable development also fits into that conversation. How do we meet housing need while protecting the green belt?
We have set out concerns about the impact on the brownfield first policy. It is vital to reaffirm the importance of building on brownfield sites. The point has been well made by groups such as the Campaign to Protect Rural England. What is meant by sustainable development needs spelling out, and we need a reaffirmation that this Government support the policy of brownfield first, as the previous two Governments did. We need to continue that policy.
We also need to make greater use of empty homes. There are 6,000 empty homes in Sefton, which is more than twice the national average. That is a big problem for us.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
May I take the hon. Gentleman back to the brownfield first principle, which was initiated by the previous Government? It has been successful—apart from the fact that brownfield sites also included people’s back gardens, which is one of the first things this Government addressed. However, I totally agree with him: perhaps we should ask the Minister to reiterate the principle of brownfield first and make sure it is embedded in new legislation.
Bill Esterson
The hon. Lady is absolutely right. I give credit to the previous Conservative Government—I probably will not do that again in my speech, so make the most of it—because it was they who initiated the brownfield first policy. There has been a continuation of planning policy over the years, and a great deal of consensus. It is important that that consensus be maintained.
I was about to talk about empty homes and their importance in Sefton and elsewhere. I would add the importance of using windfall sites. There are a number of windfall sites in Sefton that can deliver many hundreds of new homes, which would remove some of the pressure on the green belt. Councils are not allowed to use windfall sites or empty homes in their calculations, and that puts additional pressure on greenfield sites and the green belt. I completely agree with the hon. Members who mentioned greenfield sites. Urban green space is as important, if not more so, than the green belt in some cases. However, as we are talking about the green belt today, I shall concentrate on that.
What we need fleshed out is a policy that supports sustainable development. One way of doing that is for the Government to make moves to help develop brownfield sites first and regenerate empty homes. It will not surprise hon. Members to know that I am calling for a reduction in VAT on renovations, because that would level the playing field between refurbishment and renovation on the one hand and new build on the other.
Neil Parish
My constituency has a brownfield site, Webster’s garage in Axminster, where all the surrounding development is stopping the plan by having ransom strips and the like. The development, which would be right in the centre of town, has not happened for years. We need to put more pressure on local authorities and others to bring those sites together. Otherwise, they stay festering for years.
Bill Esterson
That is absolutely right. There is legislation that enables local councils to put pressure on landowners to use unsightly and unused pieces of land and buildings, but I am afraid that few councils make use of it. I hope the Minister is listening and will comment on the issue later. The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) is absolutely right—we need to put pressure on landowners. One of the concerns in Sefton is that people or organisations that own large numbers of empty properties are leaving them sitting around for years and doing nothing with them. The properties fall into disuse and become targets for vandalism and a magnet for crime and antisocial behaviour. There are all sorts of other reasons, covering the broader term of sustainability, why we need action on exactly the issue the hon. Gentleman has mentioned.
The Government should take seriously the idea of cutting VAT to encourage renovation of empty homes. The policy is being proposed by the Opposition, and I know why the Government are against it, but if we want to encourage sustainable development they need to act. If VAT on renovations is not cut, what are the other options?
Mr Andrew Turner
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that an alternative is to impose VAT on new buildings?
Bill Esterson
That would be a mistake, because that would restrict growth. Part of the debate on the NPPF is about using the planning regime to encourage growth. Increasing VAT on new build would restrict growth rather than encourage it. There are a number of reasons why a cut in VAT would be valuable, not just in bringing back empty homes and helping to protect the green belt, but in boosting the construction industry, which is one of the most effective ways of getting the economy moving again and solving some of the housing problems. It is more important to level the playing field in that way, rather than by raising VAT. There would be a huge outcry from the construction industry, as the hon. Gentleman would find, if VAT was introduced on new build.
When the national planning policy framework finally becomes a reality, I hope to see a greater emphasis on brownfield sites, empty homes and windfall land, all of which would help to protect the green belt.
The hon. Member for Broxtowe rightly mentioned some of the problems that occurred under previous unstructured planning regimes, including the development of far too many soulless housing estates and industrial developments. The problems that stem from such developments include feelings of isolation, a poor sense of community and a lack of employment opportunities. Therefore, in removing some of the planning framework, the NPPF must be careful to ensure that we do not go back to such unstructured planning, which is why the definition of sustainable development is so important. We must avoid, as we are all seeking to do, ending up with more urban sprawl into the green belt.
I mentioned the planning application that was turned down in Lydiate. One of the big threats to the green belt comes from councils. In trying to meet housing targets, they often feel that they have little choice other than to build on green belt land.
VAT cuts on renovations have the support of the Federation of Master Builders, the Federation of Small Businesses and the Campaign to Protect Rural England. In total, some 49 business organisations back the idea, and the Government would do well to look at it because there is such strong support for it in the country. The idea of creating a level playing field between new build and renovation is essential; it is a good way to protect green space and the green belt.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
Consistency and a level playing field is a big issue. I have residents in the green belt who have had small extensions or small sections of hardstanding turned down because they are inappropriate; yet just around the corner, large developers are planning thousands of new homes. We need a level playing field between the small guys and the large developers. Does the hon. Gentleman think that that exists at the moment?
Bill Esterson
Such an imbalance is caused by the fact that the large developer has access to financial resources, expertise and expert legal and professional witnesses. We need such protections included in the NPPF. However, by putting the onus on local communities and local authorities to object to inappropriate development, my concern is that we may make matters worse. We all appreciate that the local authorities are cash-strapped and have faced big cuts in resources—I will not go into the politics of that. Local communities do not have the resources or the expertise to object to large-scale planning applications. Unless we are careful, the danger is that the situation will become far worse. We need the Government to beef up the NPPF before it becomes law.
In conclusion, we need to protect the green belt—the hon. Lady has done us all a big service in holding this debate today—and ensure that the councils have the tools to do it. The key to that is a definition of sustainable development that encourages local communities and councils to balance the need to protect the green belt in the long term against the need for housing. To do that, we need policies that flesh out what is meant by sustainable development. We should place greater emphasis on using brownfield sites, empty properties and windfall land. If we go down that route, we will be in a much stronger position to protect the green belt, as we all want to do.
Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. I congratulate the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) on an eloquent and important speech. I will be as brief as I can and will try not to repeat the comments that have been made so far. I endorse many of the points that the hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) made, particularly his important concluding remarks.
As my constituency consists of the urban sprawl of Poole and then villages and small towns, the green belt is of great importance to us. My constituency is also distinguished by its large amount of heathland, which is a great constraint on development. I was a vociferous campaigner against the south-west regional spatial strategy and the housing it imposed from above on my constituency. There were excellent campaign groups, such as “Keep Corfe Mullen Green” and “Keep Wimborne Green”. We were all delighted when the regional spatial strategy housing numbers were scrapped—or so we thought. Throughout our campaign, I was conscious of the need for affordable housing; we need it desperately. What we did not need was more executive houses and more second homes in our green belt. I had a vision of communities working together because they know what their local housing need is. I wanted to see full involvement from the bottom up. I was delighted in principle with the Localism Bill and the thrust of the NPPF. As ever, though, the devil is in the detail, but I do accept the principles.
As the detail is missing in both the Localism Bill and the NPPF, we have a particular problem with transition. In the few minutes that I have, I should like to talk about the problems of transition and how I think the green belt will be compromised. Let me take the example of Corfe Mullen in my constituency. Originally, all the local councils—not the parish council—signed up to building 700 houses in the most beautiful valley imaginable. Eventually, the district council backtracked, but the matter still went to the examination in public, with the county council supporting the development. The spatial strategy had been scrapped, so we thought that the beautiful valley would be saved. East Dorset district council worked on its core strategy and excluded this site; it had listened and that was good. None the less, there are developers out on Pardy’s Hill, obviously sizing up the site. My fear is that a quick planning application will come in and we will be back to square one.
We must think about the transition. We need ministerial guidance on transition now. The coalition has a real vision of local neighbourhood planning, but, please, we must protect our green belt, urban green spaces and valuable agricultural land. If we do not get to grips with that aspect, our vision will be totally lost. For the sake of our constituents and those who campaigned so hard against Labour’s top-down approach, please do not let this happen. There is much to be said, but we have another debate later this week, so I will make further points then.
Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Crausby, for calling me to speak. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) on securing this important debate. The number of Members who have turned up shows how important the green belt is for many MPs.
I turned up here in Westminster Hall 18 months ago, when we had a very similar debate about the green belt and the Localism Bill. I was delighted that that Bill was introduced to ensure the protection of the green belt and to ensure that local communities decide where houses go. The problem is that that debate was 18 months ago.
Since then, I was delighted when the national planning policy framework included special protection for the green belt. However, the reality on the ground in our constituencies is that developers are currently putting in applications to develop green belt land. In South Gloucestershire, we are only just managing to hold off the developers, with the local council working together with residents to ensure that the green belt is protected. Even though we are going to the Planning Inspectorate and applications by developers are being thrown out, in one area of Longwell Green developers submitted an application to build 80 houses on green belt land. We defeated that application, which involved a 1,000-signature petition, by going through the whole planning process, but the developer, having had his application rejected, has now put in another application for 25 houses on the green belt.
My constituents’ patience is wearing thin. They support the Government’s desire to protect the green belt; they believe the Government are protecting the green belt; and they believe that I, the local MP, am standing up for the green belt in the wonderful areas of Kingswood, where I grew up. However, we need to act now, and we need to be on the side of David, our residents, rather than on the side of Goliath, the developers.
I urge the Minister to consider the suggestion that if a developer puts in a planning application on greenfield or green belt land and that application is rejected, they should not be allowed to put in another application for another five years, or perhaps 10 years, because we cannot have this situation whereby developers are allowed, time and time again, to run riot over our planning process.
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Crausby, for calling me to speak.
I rise to speak as an MP for the north-east. I am disappointed that there are no other MPs here from Northumberland, Newcastle, Gateshead, Tyne and Wear, Durham or Teesside. Nevertheless, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) on securing this debate, where she has made a compelling case. In addition, I entirely support what has just been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore).
I will speak very briefly, because I am very conscious that time is short. I want to emphasise my community’s desire to protect the green belt areas that are in or near my constituency. There is a need for housing in Northumberland and young people certainly struggle to get on the housing ladder. Without them, the schools, villages, shops and communities that make up the fabric of God’s own county struggle. We have small villages in Kielder, Riding Mill and Wylam where there is a need for community-based affordable housing, which is surely the way forward.
That aim is best achieved by the type of town and village plans that are being brought forward. They should be supported, and I entirely endorse the work that has been done by local villages such as Ponteland and in towns such as Hexham, which is my local town. Those villages and towns are putting forward really good local plans to establish how they will run their local communities. That is the way forward, not the bureaucratic, top-down, regional spatial nonsense that was forced on us by the previous Government and that great pioneer of planning and housing, John Prescott.
In the limited time that I have to speak, I want to touch briefly on urban regeneration. I am talking about regeneration not only in rural Northumberland but in places such as Newcastle, Gateshead and Tyne and Wear, which have sites that can be taken up and utilised. I urge the Minister to make it a fundamental priority that urban regeneration is done not only in large cities but in smaller villages and towns.
The usage of Government sites is another priority. In my area, two former hospital sites have lain derelict for nearly 20 years. The Stannington hospital site has not been used since 1993. We—the taxpayers—have paid more than £1 million to keep it secure during the past 15 to 20 years, but not a building has been built, nobody lives there and nobody has done anything with the site. We therefore have a Government-owned site, a need for housing and, hopefully, a way in which that site can be utilised for housing in the future, which would also release funds that the Government clearly need. That is the sort of project that we should be highlighting and identifying with, not anything in relation to building on the green belt or greenfield sites. The former mental hospital site at Prudhoe in my area is being developed in the way that I have just outlined. I would have liked that project to include more affordable housing, but there is a good, sustainable mix of housing, which is the way forward.
I also want to touch on the scandal of empty homes. I will be very curious to hear the Minister’s response on this point. In the region of Northumberland, including in my constituency, there are 2,351 empty homes, as established by an audit carried out by the county council in April. Those homes were not used in the six months prior to April and were therefore sitting idle. We could do so much with those properties in the towns and villages where they are located. The county council is conducting an excellent project on using empty homes. I support and endorse that project, and I hope that the council’s approach will be supported by the Minister.
I will make a final point. If there is an example of the housing that we should be getting, it is surely the Vanguard project. That is the pilot project put forward by the Government, which we are proud to have in Allendale in my constituency. Allendale Community Housing has got local communities and local partners involved. It has taken former sites and turned them around, with local partners providing the building, the jobs and the architects’ work. I entirely credit the work of ACH in this matter. That type of development is the right way forward, and it is what we need to see, rather than there being any prospect of any building on the green belt.
I thank you, Mr Crausby, for the limited time that I have had today to speak.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
Thank you very much, Mr Crausby, for calling me to speak.
In the very short time available to me today, I will not try to respond to the many points made by the hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson), who sadly is no longer in his place, having spoken in the debate for 20 minutes.
The number of MPs here in Westminster Hall from both the Conservative and the Liberal Democrat parties shows the degree of concern about some of the planning changes proposed by Her Majesty’s Government. I want to give the Government the benefit of the doubt, because they are genuinely trying to introduce localism and to hand decisions about development back to local people, but I will reserve my judgment, and if it turns out that those planning changes are a charter for developers, I, for one, will strenuously express my opposition to them. For now, however, the Government are right in trying to hand the decisions about these developments back to local people, represented by their local councillors, who are the right people to decide whether there should be building and, if so, where it should be.
Mr Gray
I will not give way, because I do not have time to do so.
Right now, speaking in this debate on the green belt, I am in opposition, because in North Wiltshire we have no green belt—it does not exist in our area. However, we face very significant threats to areas such as Purton, Lydiard Millicent, Lydiard Tregoze and even Royal Wootton Bassett, which is called “royal” after the magnificent ceremony that took place on Sunday. Swindon is sprawling westwards and currently there is no constraint whatsoever apart from the “rural buffer zone”—no one quite knows what a “rural buffer zone” is. Equally, there is talk of putting 5,000 houses around the town of Chippenham, which is already growing very fast. Even in Malmesbury, there is talk about putting some houses in the Park Road estate, effectively on green belt land, which is very worrying.
I have written to Ministers about this subject, asking why we do not have green belts in North Wiltshire. We ought to have them, as we are under as much threat as anywhere else in England. I was very encouraged to receive a response from Ministers telling me that the body that can decide whether or not to have a green belt is, in fact, the local authority. It is not the Government but the local authority that can decide to have it. Now is the moment that the local authority can do that, when we are consulting on plans for the local area.
My message to Wiltshire unitary council—a very fine Conservative-run council—and indeed to councils up and down the land run by all sorts of parties is that if we are concerned about our green belt and the green fields surrounding our urban areas, there is a very simple solution. Let us create a green belt around the towns of Swindon and Chippenham, and let us say to developers, “You may not build on these green fields and green belt. You may not build there at all. You must build on brownfield sites in the centres of towns.” Let us not do what Lord Prescott—who is much missed here in the Commons—did. You will recall, Mr Crausby, that he very famously said, “The green belt is a Labour triumph—let’s build on it.”
Mr David Crausby (in the Chair)
I would appreciate a very short contribution from Julian Sturdy.
Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Crausby, for calling me to speak.
I want to focus very briefly on the Government’s draft national planning policy framework. Thankfully, the draft framework seeks to protect the green belt provision, as highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry). However, it is clear that the guidance regarding green belt land will be simplified. I am not against that, but it is vital that any such simplification does not equate to weaker green belt protections in practice, and I seek an assurance from the Minister on that. We all know that loose language can lead to loose definitions, which in turn can lead to loose interpretations of planning guidance, not to mention the potential for legal challenges. We must, therefore, clarify that point early on in the wider planning debate.
In addition, I am concerned about the clear emphasis in the draft planning framework that it should not be necessary to propose any new green belt land except in exceptional circumstances. Greenfield sites—mentioned by a number of Members—do not share the same protection as green belt land and, with the Government keen to introduce a presumption in favour of development, I am worried that there might be no further opportunities to extend green belt protection to such sites, which many communities in my constituency would like to see.
Green belt land plays a vital role in shaping and defining communities in rural areas across the country. The overwhelming majority of York Outer residents are proud of the beautiful countryside that surrounds their homes, their villages and the historic city of York. Local residents will fight to protect their green belt land, and I will stand by them.
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)
The hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) has done our green and pleasant land a great service by initiating this debate.
In this House and in this country we cherish our green belt and our countryside, as captured in the immortal words of the great English anthem, “Linden Lea”:
“Within the woodlands, flowery gladed,
’neath the oak tree’s mossy moot,
The shining grass-blades, timber-shaded,
Now do quiver under foot…
And brown-leav’d fruit’s a-turning red,
In cloudless sunshine, overhead…
To where, for me, the apple tree
Do lean down low in Linden Lea.”
But to cherish is not enough. The great planning settlement of 1947 sought to reconcile growth and development with a genuine say for local people and the protection of our natural environment. Historically, the purposes of green belt in planning policies were to protect the countryside from urban sprawl and to retain the character of towns and cities. Green belts are a buffer between towns, and between a town and the surrounding countryside, and within that belt damaged and derelict land can be improved and nature conservation encouraged.
Green belts are currently protected by planning policy guidance note 2, but that will be replaced by the national planning policy framework. The presumption against inappropriate development in the green belt unless there are very special circumstances that outweigh the harm caused by the development, is to be removed by the NPPF. At the moment, proposals in draft plans that would result in releasing land from the green belt must be fully justified; the Labour Government were committed to protecting the green belt and we encouraged the recycling of land and a brownfield-first approach.
Jack Dromey
Given the time available, no.
The NPPF also removes Labour’s brownfield-first policy. Under the Labour Government, the green belt expanded by 34,640 hectares. This Government have repeatedly said that policies to protect the green belt and nationally designated landscapes will be retained in the NPPF, but the framework, which replaces all planning guidance, does not give sufficient confidence to people who want our countryside to be protected and risks antagonising local communities rather than engaging them. Inevitably, there will be greater opposition, more appeals and a less effective planning system.
We badly need more development—well-designed and in the right place—not least because we have a growing housing crisis. The Government, however, have responded to legitimate concerns expressed by broad-based non-political organisations such as the National Trust and the Campaign to Protect Rural England by calling them “left-wing” and “semi-hysterical,” and by saying that the organisations are guilty of “nihilistic selfishness”. In the current climate, we have the worst of all worlds: collapsing house building, chaos in the planning system and a chorus of voices whose concerns have not yet been properly heard.
How do we salvage some sense from this mess, and protect our green belt? First, we need a recognised definition of sustainable development. The Government should continue to support the widely-subscribed-to 2005 definition. Secondly, and crucially, we need a restoration of the successful brownfield-first policy, which was initiated under a Conservative Government and developed under a Labour one, with 76% of development on brownfield sites. There is currently enough brownfield land available to build 1.2 million homes. Thirdly, we need protection for our town centres. The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) referred to the repopulation of our town centres, including people living above shops, and I strongly agree with his view. Fourthly, there should be a commitment to affordable housing, not the trading-off of such housing for reasons of viability and, fifthly, we need transitional arrangements that protect local communities against what will sometimes be predatory proposals by developers—a point that the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) was absolutely right to raise earlier. Finally, we hope that the Government will put the NPPF to a vote in both Houses of Parliament.
Specific concerns have been raised about the NPPF and the green belt. Some people believe that the draft framework does not maintain the existing green belt protections and that it should be improved and strengthened.
Jack Dromey
Given the time available, no.
A legal opinion commissioned by the Campaign to Protect Rural England emphasises the need to retain the current presumption against inappropriate development in the green belt. Ministers have stated on a number of occasions that the draft NPPF maintains the current protection of the green belt, but although the draft framework incorporates a number of features of current policy—in PPG2, green belts—the CPRE believes that paragraphs 133 to 147 of the consultation draft policy contain a serious weakening of current protections for the following reasons—
Jack Dromey
Given the time available, no.
The presumption in favour of sustainable development appears to apply in green belts as in all other locations—other than European wildlife sites—meaning, in the CPRE’s view, that development proposals could be refused only if they were shown to harm the objectives of the NPPF as a whole, rather than being harmful purely in green belt policy terms, as at present. The loss of the presumption against inappropriate development is highlighted in the CPRE’s legal opinion, and of particular concern is when the presumption in favour of sustainable development appears to apply in the green belt. Accordingly, the CPRE argues that the presumption against inappropriate development should be reinstated, and cross-referenced in the section covering the presumption in favour of sustainable development.
Other concerns have been expressed by, for example, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, which has received legal advice that the draft planning proposals would weaken protection for the 4,000 sites of special scientific interest across England. Concerns have also been expressed to us by people who value our village greens. As part of its consultation on village greens, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs said that it intends to charge communities £1,000 to start the process of protecting their local green spaces.
In conclusion, I would like to put certain questions to the Minister. First, does he agree with the CPRE’s legal opinion that the green belt is at risk? Secondly, what is his view of the other potential loopholes in the draft policy? Thirdly, what is his view of the RSPB’s legal advice that the draft planning proposals would weaken protection for 4,000 sites of special scientific interest? Fourthly, is it right to charge local communities £1,000 to safeguard their village greens?
The Government need to move beyond deriding their critics and polarising the debate. Legitimate concerns have been expressed. We need a system fit for purpose. I hope that the Minister responds constructively.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Andrew Stunell)
It is a pleasure to serve under you, Mr Crausby, in a debate that has generated huge interest from hon. Friends and other Members who have this concern on their constituency agendas. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) on presenting her case with skill and liveliness. I appreciate her concern that many new homes might be built on green belt in Broxtowe, strictly in accordance with the old regional strategy. Her tour of the history of the green belt and the geography of her constituency was enlightening.
I declare an interest. I do not have a partner who is a developer, but I do have a constituency consisting exclusively of built-up areas and green belt. There is no other choice. I assure hon. Members and my hon. Friends that irrespective of my position in the Government, I entirely share their concern to ensure strong green belt policy that is not weakened by the reforms that we are making. In the brief time available, I hope that I can reassure her and others that far from weakening environmental protection, our planning reforms will strengthen them.
My hon. Friend made some specific points about her constituency and what she perceives to be the contrasting behaviour of the two district councils of Broxtowe and Rushcliffe. Propriety considerations prevent me from commenting on particular situations and requirements, because core strategies will be subjected to examination by independent inspectors appointed by the Secretary of State. Perhaps it is no bad thing that I am not in a position to comment.
My hon. Friend and several other people who spoke made points about the phraseology of the national planning policy framework. I will ensure that the Hansard record of this debate is entered into the consultation process, so remarks made here will be added to remarks received. The consultation officially finished on Monday, but if in the light of this debate hon. Members feel moved to contribute personally or on behalf of organisations, I assure them that if they are quick, their views will still be considered.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
I am grateful for the Minister’s clarifications. Can he give us a definition of a presumption of sustainable development?
Andrew Stunell
Fortunately, my task is made much easier by the fact that that definition takes up about a page and a half of the NPPF. I remind the House that there will be a debate specifically about that on Thursday, so I will contain my remarks to those aspects related to the green belt. I encourage hon. Members and my hon. Friends to contribute to the debate on Thursday.
Tessa Munt
Will the Minister consider supporting the Second Reading of my Electricity Transmission (Protection of Landscape) Bill, which covers land that is of value to the community but not strictly green belt land, particularly in view of the fact that parish councils will be putting together their plans and local people can be heard in that way?
Andrew Stunell
I have certainly heard what my hon. Friend says. I will concentrate on the green belt for the moment, if I may.
The draft NPPF sets out the Government’s proposed policies on planning and retains the key policy protections for the green belt. I emphasise to the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) that I preferred his choice of poetry to his choice of lawyer in his description of what we have done. The draft NPPF says:
“Inappropriate development is, by definition, harmful to the Green Belt and should not be approved except in very special circumstances.”
Those special circumstances, as my hon. Friend said while introducing this debate, are clearly set out. She drew particular attention to one aspect that she did not like, but that was an exception contained in the original green belt policy, which is currently in force.
Bill Esterson
The shadow Minister has given the legal opinion presented to the CPRE. Does the Minister have a legal opinion of his own giving an alternative view? It would be helpful if we could see the counter-view.
Andrew Stunell
As I have four minutes remaining, it is sensible for me simply to say that I hope that the hon. Gentleman will find the opportunity to make that point on Thursday during the wider debate.
The Government value the green belt highly. It is an essential planning tool to prevent sprawl, and its retention is a coalition agreement commitment. The abolition of the regional spatial strategies through the Localism Bill will stop the top-down pressure to review green belts in many areas. Some 30 green belt areas are currently under the kind of pressure that my hon. Friend outlined eloquently, due to the pressure exerted by regional spatial strategies, which often impose highly inappropriate numbers on areas without the physical capacity to take them.
In future, local planning authorities will be in control. It is certainly not for central Government to decide where green belts should be; as my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) correctly advised the House, that is a matter for local authorities. He discussed green fields as opposed to green belts. The NPPF says clearly that
“the planning system should aim to conserve and enhance the natural and local environment by protecting valued landscapes”.
There is a good deal more about environmental protection, to which I draw his attention.
My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) asked about the transition from the current system to the new one. Whether anybody likes it or not, the existing planning system and its case law will remain in place until replaced by a new system. That new system will come into force upon the passage of the Localism Bill. At the moment, it is assumed that if the House is willing, that will happen on 1 April next year.
Authorities are free to make whatever assessment they believe they should make of their housing strategy and draw up plans in accordance with the current system as they think fit. They should, of course, pay full attention to current consultation procedures, and their core strategies will be subject to review by the independent planning inspectorate in exactly the same way.
That is not to say that legitimate concerns have not been raised about an interim situation. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington made the point that perhaps some will seek to exploit the difference. However, we want plans to be developed in accordance with the wishes of local communities and to create the homes, jobs, transport links and recreational facilities that we need to produce environmentally, socially and economically sustainable communities. It is the Government’s clear intention to do so.
On empty homes—
Badgers and Bovine TB
(13 years ago)
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Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. I am pleased to have been granted the opportunity to initiate this debate. Although my constituency of North Tyneside is largely urban—it has only four farms—the interests of my constituents are many and varied. They cover a wide range, including concerns about the Government’s proposed culling of badgers.
I would never describe myself as an animal lover, but I would never wilfully hurt an animal. As a townie, I value being a member of the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and in that role I have learned a lot about the issues that confront members of our rural and farming communities, the challenges they face in caring for the countryside and maintaining their animal herds, and the important role that they play in providing for the food chain. Furthermore, I have learned to respect their knowledge of and experience in all those matters.
Levels of bovine TB are unacceptable, not only for our farmers and the fate of their cattle, but for the taxpayer. Last year, 25,000 cattle were slaughtered, and almost £90 million was paid for testing and in compensation. The Environment Secretary has said that over the next 10 years, bovine TB will cost £1 billion in England alone if more action is not taken. However, it is the Government’s proposed action to tackle the issue that I wish to question.
Although the compulsory culling of cattle affected by bovine TB began more than 60 years ago, it was not until the early 1970s that badgers were thought to be the wildlife reservoir for the disease. The UK has one of the densest badger populations in Europe, with up to 30 per sq km in some areas. Badgers are a native species that is widespread across the UK, and live in setts underground in family or social groups of related mature adults and young cubs. Each group defends its own territory, which has a source of food and water. They are creatures of habit and are extremely loyal to their setts. By law, they are protected under the Protection of Badgers Act 1992, the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 and the Bern convention.
A number of badger culling initiatives have been employed over the years to control bovine TB, but it was under the Labour Government that a full scientific study was undertaken. Following Professor John Krebs’s independent review, that Government set up the independent science review group, and the UK randomised badger culling trial began. The trial took place over a 10-year period in areas where there had been large numbers of TB cases in cattle. However, the cull was suspended in 2003 when it was found that survivors of partly culled setts were wandering away and spreading the disease. Following extensive research, the study reported in 2007 and concluded that badger culling could not meaningfully contribute to the future control of cattle TB in the UK.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
Is the hon. Lady not aware that there was proof after the trials that TB in cattle was reduced by some 27% as a result of culling, and that while there was, as she correctly indicated, perturbation around the edges of the area in which the cull took place, within a year that had lessened? In other words, the Krebs trials demonstrated that culling is effective. Indeed, the report of the EFRA Committee, on which the hon. Lady sits, came to that conclusion in the previous Parliament.
Mrs Glindon
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, but against that evidence it has been shown that the results are not as favourable in smaller experiments.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the scientific evidence suggests that, at best, a comprehensive culling policy would lead to a 16% reduction in bovine TB, but only after nine years in the culling zones? The Government’s proposal is to undertake a number of pilot projects before rolling out the programme, which is not an effective way forward.
Mrs Glindon
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention and agree with her. This is the basis on which the Government are advancing their proposals—nothing better, just the same.
In 2008, the then Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), decided that, based on the evidence, it was not right to risk the cull because it could have made the disease worse. He stated that the then Government would concentrate on other measures, including investing in the development of an effective TB vaccine for both cattle and badgers.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
I am encouraged that we are having this debate. What is the vaccine called that the hon. Lady mentioned? My understanding is that no effective vaccine is in place yet, that the trials are ongoing and that frankly, the vaccine does not exist. An injectable vaccine would be incredibly costly and difficult to administer, and would have no effect on badgers that already carry this terrible disease.
Mrs Glindon
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. My understanding, from looking at the Wildlife Trust’s vaccine programme in Gloucestershire, is that BCG vaccines are effective. The trust is carrying out that programme by trapping the badgers and injecting them. The trial took place over the summer and the costs are being looked at, but the programme is under way. I am no scientist, but the injections are similar to BCG injections for humans.
Ian Paisley
I appreciate the hon. Lady allowing me to intervene again on this important point. I am aware of those Gloucestershire trials, which are important. I declare an interest as a member of the British Veterinary Association, which cares about animals and their welfare. On those trials, it states that
“to conclude from this report that the badger vaccine is a viable alternative to culling in eradicating TB is unrealistic at best and spin at worst.”
The fact is that frankly, trapping a wild badger and trying to inject it and trace it for the next five years—as the hon. Lady has said, there is a large badger population—would be impossible.
Mrs Glindon
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, but the Government’s proposals on culling are not being monitored and have no scientific fact behind them. The vaccine trials are ongoing and should be pursued. Unfortunately, the Government closed down five of the six trials, thus limiting what can be done, but they themselves are going to put £20 million into vaccine development.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)
Clearly, there will be different views on a number of issues in this debate, and I welcome that. I should like, however, to clarify the situation on vaccines, so that the debate can progress on a positive, factual basis. As has been said, a licensed injectable vaccine is being used by the Gloucestershire Wildlife Trust. However, that is not a trial. The trust is undertaking a programme of vaccinating badgers on its own land and, as I say, is not carrying out a trial.
On the six projects to which the hon. Lady referred, yes, I cancelled five of them, but they were not trials either. They were called vaccine deployment projects and were purely designed to work out the mechanics of catching and vaccinating badgers and to train the operators. Those projects were not trials to establish whether the vaccine works; we know it works to a large extent, which is why it is licensed.
Forgive me for taking so long, Mr Crausby, but I think these points are helpful. An oral vaccine has not been developed. There have been a number of attempts to do so in New Zealand, as well as in this country, but we are still many years away from it. Just for the record, a cattle vaccine is more imminent but, as no doubt we will discuss, we have major problems with the EU in getting agreement to use it.
Mrs Glindon
I thank the Minister for his valuable intervention and for clarifying the issue. I hope his comments will be useful to the rest of the debate.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
Many of us are intervening on the question of a vaccine. I am a farmer and I love wildlife. We would desperately like to have a vaccine that we felt was going to be effective, but for as long as I can remember—I have been involved with this issue for about 40 years—a vaccine has been about 10 years away. What we need from the hon. Lady is an idea of what the Opposition would genuinely do.
Mrs Glindon
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, which was made from his professional stance. The vaccine issue is very important, and the previous Government were totally committed to it because they appreciated the situation of the farmers and of the animals affected by this horrendous disease. That is why the former Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central, decided to concentrate on developing a vaccine. Such a decision was based on the scientific evidence that culling was not the way forward, and because he put faith in developing the vaccine, he set up the Bovine TB Eradication Group for England. The measures proposed by that group did not at any point include going along with culling, because it believed that the scientific evidence from 10 years of trials did not conclude that culling would bring any success.
Based on the scientific findings of the Independent Scientific Group on Cattle, Labour in opposition remains opposed to a cull. The new Labour-led Assembly in Wales have put a halt to a proposed cull and are concluding a review into the scientific evidence. The coalition claim that it is
“committed, as part of a package of measures, to develop affordable options for a carefully-managed and science-led policy of badger control in areas with high and persistent levels of bovine TB”,
and that
“the proposals are based on the best available scientific and veterinary evidence”.
However, despite that claim, the Secretary of State, supported by the Minister, is proposing to allow a cull of badgers to take place.
The scientific evidence upon which the previous Labour Government based their decision not to go ahead with culling but to seek to develop successful vaccination was supported by experts and organisations such as those already mentioned—for example, the wildlife trusts and the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. It is also important to note that the people who made up the important group set up by the Labour Government included representatives from the Royal College of Surgeons, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and other science groups. The emphasis has always been on scientific evidence, which, as I have said, is still what the Opposition consider the best way forward. It is only through scientific evidence that any action can be taken.
Mr Gray
The hon. Lady makes great play of the scientific evidence that came before the previous Government. However, she will remember that the scientific evidence was carefully balanced and that, for example, the chief veterinary adviser to the Government came down on the side of the cull. Does she not remember that the reason why the former vegetarian Secretary of State for DEFRA came down against a cull was because he believed that the social and, dare I say, political and even economic consequences of allowing a cull would be larger than the veterinary benefits? The issue was not actually about science; it was about whether a cull was politically acceptable.
Mrs Glindon
The chief veterinary adviser based what he said on scientific evidence and his professional judgment was not swayed in the way that the hon. Gentleman has suggested.
Mr Paice
On the science, has the hon. Lady read the document on the DEFRA website that states:
“Bovine TB - Key conclusions from the meeting of scientific experts, held at DEFRA on 4th April 2011”?
I will not read out all the names listed on that document, but there are about 10 of them, including all the scientists who were involved in the trials and in many other aspects of the matter. The science is agreed. There should be no dispute about the science; indeed, hon. Members have already discussed the science. The document that I am referring to clearly sets out the figures and refers to 16%, which has been quoted. That is the science; the issue is what conclusion is derived from it. Has she read that document?
Mrs Glindon
I have spent about 20 hours trying to read everything that I can in preparation for the debate. I have not read the specific names, but I maintain that the information that I have read on the DEFRA website and in other publications indicates that the science base against culling accepted by the previous Labour Government was right and remains so.
Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that, at that meeting, scientists said that they were concerned about the impact of free shooting and that the effects of the policy would be to create differences “either positively or negatively”? The scientists went on to say that such an approach would lead to a
“potential variability in outcome between areas.”
Is that not the case?
Mrs Glindon
I accept what my hon. Friend has said. That is the tenet that one hears over and over again.
Ian Paisley
Does the hon. Lady accept that no one is supporting the policy of a badger free shoot, as has been suggested? We are talking about a limited cull in specific areas, not a free-for-all free shoot.
Mrs Glindon
A free shooting policy would mean badgers being shot under licence, but not in a controlled way. We are talking about free shooting at random.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Will she comment on what is, as I understand it, the Home Secretary’s view on shooting and on the resources that will need to be taken from the police to deal with free shooting as a method of culling? The 20% cuts that are taking place across the country mean that that will present problems to our police forces.
Mrs Glindon
I was going to raise that issue with the Minister later. The cost of policing, which will be very contentious, is estimated at approximately £200,000 a year, which is one of the things that is not addressed in the Government’s proposals. The amount of money seems to have decreased.
The Minister’s proposals for controlled shooting deviate from those practised in the randomised badger culling trial. To elaborate on what I said earlier, the animals will be shot in the field at night, instead of using the accurate and humane method of caging, trapping and shooting, which was used in the trial. Badgers are difficult to approach, and they spend a lot of their time in the undergrowth. Their physiology makes it difficult for one random shot to kill them outright.
Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
During the 700 hours of debate on hunting in the previous Parliament, it was suggested that shooting was the humane alternative in wildlife control. Is the hon. Lady now saying that shooting is not as humane as it was when it was debated in the previous Parliament?
Mrs Glindon
I was not an MP at that time and did not follow that debate, but methods of shooting can be debated here.
Cathy Jamieson
Is my hon. Friend aware that the Government’s own wildlife crime unit raised concerns about that, saying that if the culls take place there is a danger of illegal badger persecution being carried out under the pretext of culling? There is a concern as to what that will do in terms of both community safety and public order.
Mrs Glindon
I thank my hon. Friend for raising that point on animal welfare and criminality, which relates to public safety as well as to the badger community.
Under the randomised badger culling trial, culling took place over a short period of two weeks. It was found that a longer period of culling saw greater effects from perturbation. Unfortunately, the Government’s new proposals include a longer period of culling. Natural England has expressed concern at the lack of evidence available to demonstrate that a farm-led cull can replicate what has only been undertaken previously by Government.
The Government have designated Natural England as a licensing authority for the cull. Under the proposals, farmers and landowners will be expected to cull at least 70% of badgers in designated areas. However, there is no accurate information about the badger population, so the number to be killed cannot be specified. Without accurate data, culling could lead to extinction in some areas or, where too few badgers are killed, an increase in the negative effects of perturbation. Furthermore, it has been estimated that, as has been mentioned, the policing cost of dealing with protesters who are against the cull will amount to more than £200,000 per year, but Ministers have not specified where that amount will come from.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
On the subject of cuts, a number of dairy farmers have approached me to say that the Government cuts to trading standards are having a real impact on cattle testing at market. I am sure that my hon. Friend will come on to the point that, while there is a responsibility on farmers to ensure that they are not transporting infected cattle around the country—there have been concerns about farmers swapping infected cattle and non-infected cattle—apparently there has been a decline in the effectiveness of testing at cattle markets, because trading standards are not being funded. Does she share my concern?
Mrs Glindon
Other important measures must also be upheld if we wish to curtail the incidence of bovine TB.
Mrs Glindon
I thank the Minister for his intervention, but I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) is representing her constituents as truthfully as she can in this debate.
Kerry McCarthy
Certainly, I have been approached by dairy farmers who are opposed to the badger cull. They have told me that they are concerned about the cuts to trading standards, which mean that cattle markets are not being supervised in the way in which they should be. I do not know whether that is specifically about testing at markets or assessing in other ways whether infected animals are being sold there, as opposed to clinical testing, but I have certainly been told—I can put this on the record—by dairy farmers who go to market every week that that is having an impact.
Mrs Glindon
I hope that the Minister has noted my hon. Friend’s concerns.
The Minister and the Secretary of State should listen to the experts and the scientists and, instead of pressing forward with plans for culling, refocus their efforts to eradicate bovine TB by concentrating Government resources on developing vaccination methods, along with other measures that are currently being deployed. Other countries where bovine TB is a problem, such as New Zealand, Ireland and the USA, are all working on vaccines. The Gloucestershire Wildlife Trust has carried out vaccine trials in Gloucestershire, as has been mentioned, so momentum is growing in that direction. Culling is not the answer. Sound scientific evidence tells us that we must move in a different direction and try to work with the measures, some of which the current Government are carrying forward, put in place by the previous Government, which definitely work.
Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making an extremely good point, and I am very grateful to her for securing today’s debate. [Interruption.] I wish that Government Members would not heckle, because it is so annoying. My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) has mentioned dairy farmers who are, quite rightly, opposed to this and who, quite rightly, do not want culling on their land. Will my hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) spend a moment addressing the issues around a free-for-all cull, where licensed guns are wandering around looking for anything black and white moving in the undergrowth? Will she spend a moment addressing what will happen when there is a dairy farmer slap bang in the middle of one of these areas who says, “No, we are not having that on my land”? How will that affect the supposedly scientific cull?
Mrs Glindon
I have spent a number of hours reading all kinds of evidence about this, and the main worry about policing and control is that there is none. Natural England will license the guns, and farmers and landowners will come together and train people to shoot, but it must be emphasised that the shooting will not be controlled as it was under the scientific trials. The problem is that the shooting might be random and that there will be no one to enforce any safety measures whatever. The badgers will be shot as they are running or moving along as badgers do in the undergrowth, but who will keep people off the target site or ensure that the shot badgers are killed outright and not wandering off in pain to die a cruel death or, if wounded, wandering away from their setts and spreading the disease?
I urge the Minister to rethink culling. The science is the route, and the science says, “Do not cull!” Will the Minister consider the vaccine route? Resources should be poured into vaccine, ensuring that farmers and badgers have an equal say and that we do not look at killing before we look at curing.
Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
Thank you for the opportunity to speak in the debate, Mr Crausby.
To provide some background, last week, at a place called Broomhill farm near where I live in Pembrokeshire, the home of my constituency agent, 11 cattle were reactors to a TB test. Shortly afterwards, it was discovered that they could not be taken away for slaughter because four of them were in-calf heifers. Therefore, those animals, bred with great care and attention by the family, had to be shot on the yard in front of the son and daughter who were aspiring to grow the farm in the way that we are all encouraging them to, and with all the accompanying trauma. We talk about compensation and, yes, of course there will be compensation for the animals concerned, but there will not be compensation for the calves within them, there will not be compensation for the reduction in the milk yield, there will not be compensation for the additional buildings that have had to be put in place over the years for handling, because of the lack of ability to move animals around, and there will not be compensation for the trauma that that family and others have been subject to over a long period.
In a sense it would be nice to be able to say to the House that that story was unusual, but the truth is, as we all know, that nothing at all about it is unusual. Everyone with a constituency affected by the disease has similar tales to tell. Frankly, there have been 60 years of discussion, 60 years of promises, 60 years of let-downs, 60 years of contradictory science and 60 years of politicians taking the farming community to the brink and then back again, as we have seen in the Welsh Assembly. The evidence was clear, the proposals and everything were in place to embrace at long last some degree of control, but what happens? There is an election. The only thing that changes is the election result and the whole thing goes back to square one. Is it any wonder that farming communities around Britain have lost faith in politicians’ ability to deliver some kind of progress—I will come back to that—on the issue? Thousands of cattle have been killed, as the hon. Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) mentioned, millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money has been wasted, businesses have been destroyed and families broken up and farmers have left the industry, at times in droves—not solely because of the impact of the disease over so many years, but in part.
If I can bring the debate back to human beings—a little more about the human cost and a little less about the animal cost—we might be going in the right direction. Let us be honest: such an impact on any other industry in the UK and over such a long period would have been completely intolerable, but for some strange reason we have stood back and tolerated it in our farming industry, despite the human and financial costs discussed. The Government are absolutely right to draw a line and say, “Enough is enough,” and to come forward with a consultation process—let us not forget that we are still in the consultation phase and that no final decisions have been taken. It is right for farmers, taxpayers, cattle, businesses and—I say to the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), who has now left the Chamber for the second time—badgers. It strikes me as odd that during the debate we have almost seemed to be frozen with fear at the prospect of curing a disease which itself has a negative impact on the badger population. As a constituency MP representing a rural seat a long way from Westminster, I find it frustrating that so little attention has been devoted to the welfare of badgers. We seem to forget all that. The idea that we should close our eyes and somehow badgers will live happily ever after is utterly naive and does nothing for the overall thrust of most welfarists and conservationists—as opposed to preservationists—that we should look after the health of the wild animal population as much as that of the husbanded population, and balance between them, just as we should look after those who are charged with the interests of both.
Mr Gray
My hon. Friend is familiar with scenes such as one described to me by a farmer in my constituency. When the farmer turned on the lights in the yard in the middle of the night, he saw what he thought were 30 to 40 badgers, full of TB, staggering around and unable to stand up. Those badgers could not be helped even if we had a vaccine, because they are ill badgers; they need to be destroyed, and the only sensible way to destroy them is by shooting them. My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point.
Simon Hart
It is as much a problem in North Wiltshire as in west Wales and other areas represented in the debate.
Someone said to me over the weekend, “Of course the problem isn’t the disease, the problem is the policy.” I have a certain sympathy with that view, formed over the years we have been studying the issue. The Minister mentioned in one of his interventions the legal stranglehold of the European Union—I do not think that you, Mr Crausby, would thank us if we went into an EU debate now, but it appears absolutely correct that the chances of us being able to introduce in the necessary time a cattle vaccination, which is effective and cost-effective, seems unlikely at this moment in the process. That leaves various other options.
As I suspect everyone is, I am rather in favour of cattle vaccination, if only it were so simple. I suspect that the Minister would agree—for no other purpose than to help his blood pressure when attending debates such as this one perhaps—if it were possible to take the problem away with a magic potion which could somehow be administered to cattle or badgers, but it is not that simple. The cattle vaccination is estimated to be only about 60% effective, even if we could start administering it tomorrow. I also agree with my hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), who spoke about badger vaccination. To be honest, I am sceptical about the practical possibilities. I live in a fairly remote part of west Wales and within a mile of my house are 20 badger setts, which are all in difficult places. They are not nicely situated in the middle of fields but are in quarries, under buildings and in the most awkward places imaginable. The idea that someone would have the wherewithal, the patience, the money, the expertise and everything else required to trap, inoculate and test or whatever frankly makes no practical sense. Of course vaccinations will form an important part of the final eradication of the disease, and the sooner the better—we can all agree on that.
One simple solution, however, is not what is on offer. We must combine testing and stricter or proper monitoring of cattle movements throughout the UK with sensible culling proposals. I am talking about culling where appropriate, under proper supervision and in line with the consultation documents supplied by the Minister. It is perfectly possible to undertake a well-controlled, humane cull in certain areas, as the Welsh Assembly demonstrated before it had the rug pulled from beneath its feet. A combination of things will lead to final eradication. People who think there is some magic pill out there which can be dished out and is cheap, effective and imminent are deluding themselves. We should take much greater notice of the evidence before us than we have so far in the debate.
I suspect that the goal for all of us is something that is easy, effective, cheap and, above, all, imminent. It is absolutely right, legally, morally and practically that the Government wish to consult on the issue, and we look forward to the final findings before too long. However, let us not underestimate—I hope that the Government will not do so—some of the practical obstacles that will present themselves, not only to vaccination, but to the controlled culling that they have set out.
Above all, the Government should not be half-hearted. They have the evidence they need. They have, if nothing else, reams and reams of human examples, which demonstrate to everyone in the House why it is so important to bring the curtain down on this appalling disease. I have been told that the badger is a political animal, and puts the frighteners on hon. Members on both sides of the House when it comes to making a bold, sensible and evidence-based decision. I suggest to the Minister that there is never a bad time to do the right thing, and now is the time to do the right thing. I commend his proposals.
Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
I listened carefully to the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart). He is absolutely right that bovine TB is a terrible disease. I, too, have seen some appalling cases. To put the matter into perspective, the last figures I saw showed that 92% of farms are free of bovine TB, so it does not impact on every farm throughout the country. It comes and goes in waves.
My late father-in-law was a small farmer in Cornwall, and he was proud of the fact that there was never TB on his farm, despite it having a badger sett. He claimed that his purchasing policy when he bought in animals kept it free, but even I am not convinced that that was the case. I believe that it was the character of the surrounding area, and the fact that a wide range of farmers had high standards.
The Prime Minister told me in the Liaison Committee a few months ago that he agrees that he should spend more time with his scientific advisers, and I suggest that every Minister should do just that, but I also ask that everyone has basic lessons in how science works because the argument is not black and white. Anyone who presents it as such is wrong. The hon. Gentleman said that vaccination is not that simple. He is absolutely correct. Nothing in the debate is absolutely simple, and I will illustrate the folly of the Minister’s position by using the argument that it is not that simple.
Lord Krebs, a highly respected Cross Bencher in the other place, has reported, as is well known. His view is that the process that the Minister recommends has a serious flaw, and it would be foolish to ignore that view. The question is which of the extreme views is right. I do not believe that the hon. Gentleman was arguing—my hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) was certainly not—that TB in badgers should be ignored, and he was not looking for a 100% cull. We must find a way forward. The question is whether the Minister’s free shooting policy can provide that way forward. My contention, based on the Krebs report, is that it cannot.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
I apologise for being late, and I declare an interest in that I am responsible for a herd of bovine animals in Wales. That is not the Minister’s responsibility because we are discussing an England-only issue, but it is a herd that has been affected by TB.
The hon. Gentleman referred to Professor Krebs’s contribution, with which I agree. We must take a view on it. Does he agree that there is a balancing view from David King, a former chief scientific adviser to the Government, who carried out an overarching review of all the science, and came to a different conclusion from that of Professor Krebs?
Andrew Miller
Indeed. That is my point. The argument that the Government are relying on—that the free shooting policy will work—does not have universal support in the scientific community because, as an hon. Member who intervened on my hon. Friend said, it is not possible to measure that realistically. I am glad that colleagues from Wales have intervened, because that is hugely important. The evidence suggests that, to have any effect, a cull would have to take place over a minimum area—the suggested area is 150 sq km—and be conducted for four years. It is estimated that in the first three years, perturbation would be serious. The problem is, unless the policy is nationwide, how to manage the Welsh and Scottish borders, although I suspect that the latter is less relevant. It would be incredibly difficult to do something effective on the Welsh border. Unless we issue badgers with passports and do not allow them to cross the border, there will be a problem.
Mr Gray
The hon. Gentleman is making an important point. The policy stipulates that there must be hard borders to the area to be culled. The Welsh border is a good example. Unless we give badgers money to use the toll bridges, the River Severn provides a healthy, strong border to protect Wales from Gloucestershire, Wiltshire, Somerset and Dorset, which are so badly affected by bovine TB.
Andrew Miller
The hon. Gentleman is right where there are major borders, but the Welsh border is a tad longer than the River Severn. Towards my constituency, the River Dee is not the Welsh border. If we brought it back to the Welsh border, it might upset some of our Welsh colleagues. Perhaps Offa’s dyke should be the border, but we have had that debate in the House. There is a serious logistical problem, especially in north Wales, in defining where the boundary would be. There would be one policy on one side of a land border, and another on the other side. The same would apply in Scotland. My first message to the Minister—he is trying to address an incredibly difficult problem—is that free shooting has a substantial weakness, unless he can obtain a buy-in from his Scottish and Welsh colleagues. Otherwise, trials of a free shooting policy in those areas are bound to fail.
Ian Paisley
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman accepts that to stem the effects of perturbation, good husbandry on both sides of the Welsh or English border would require buffers to stop the movement of badgers anyway. Is his argument not defeated by the practical measures that farmers would take irrespective of what side of the border they were on?
Andrew Miller
That is the problem. The hon. Gentleman has significant knowledge of the farming industry. Badgers are fascinating creatures, because they are extremely difficult to control, in the way that would be necessary, by a buffer process. Badgers are habit-forming creatures. Those that cross my land leave a straight line through the grass, and they are so caring about others in the sett that if one goes missing, perhaps because it has been hit by a vehicle, they will go and find its body. They are extraordinary creatures and it will be difficult to create a buffer that works.
I have some sympathy with the point raised by the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) about a family who see several badgers in a farm that are suffering from TB. Our humanity means that if we see a creature suffering, we must do something and I would not seek to debar the humane dispatching of a suffering animal. That, however, is not free shooting, which will inevitably take out healthy members of the badger population. The effects of perturbation will be exacerbated because badgers are communal animals and will go looking for partners and friends in new setts should their sett be destroyed. Unless one can guarantee that only those badgers carrying TB will be shot, the risk is that the disease will spread.
It is not mathematically possible to provide a guarantee to the farming community that that policy will work. The question, therefore, is whether such a policy would make any progress, but we must also look at the situation in another way. As has been said, significant work has been carried out on the Gloucester vaccine, which we know works. One would not wish to remove that vaccine where it can be utilised, although we must recognise the problems in administering it.
I think that highest priority should be given to work on the cattle vaccine, and to finding a cross-party agreement and a way to present that scientific evidence through European mechanisms and get agreement on it. One can proceed on a scientific basis, and I urge the House not to go down an extremist route. We all agree that we cannot and would not want to destroy the entire badger population, and all methods currently employed against the disease contain weaknesses. A cattle vaccine is one area that we know is likely to have the greatest success. We must invest in that research and find a cross-party way to take it through European mechanisms and find a solution that is in the interests of both the British countryside and our important farming community.
Mr David Crausby (in the Chair)
Order. Four hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye so I appeal for short speeches from now on. I intend to call the Front-Bench speakers at 12.10 pm.
Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)
I will try to be reasonably brief. I thank the hon. Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) for securing this debate. She pointed out that she comes from the city and is a townie, and although we work well together on the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, I feel that she may be wrong on this issue. I welcome the chance to participate in the debate, however, and I welcome the Minister being here. Along with the Secretary of State, he has been brave in moving this issue forward. We have had problems with TB for 60 years or more. We began to get to grips with it in the late ‘60s, but as the badger population increased, so did TB, and we have had a huge problem ever since.
We are talking about disease control because we have got to stamp out TB, which exists not only in cattle and badgers but in a lot of other wildlife. Over 100 cats have suffered from it, and there is much to do to control the disease. In an ideal world we would vaccinate the badgers, but we are without an oral vaccine and we know the practicalities of such a vaccination programme—we simply would not catch them.
A vaccine for cattle is not too far away, but we must ask how long it could take and whether we will get Europe to agree to it. There was a huge debate over foot and mouth disease and whether vaccinating cattle should be allowed, and we would have the same problem with a vaccine for TB. We do not yet have an effective vaccination, and throughout Devon, Cornwall and the whole of the west country, farmers have suffered year after year from the presence of this disease. Many of the herds involved have been restricted for two, three, four, five or more years, and during that time farmers have lost a lot of their highly bred—and irreplaceable—pedigree cattle. All the while, we have done nothing to get rid of the reservoir of disease in the fields.
We test our cattle regularly, and bring them in for the winter although they are tested throughout the year. We take out the infected cattle, but then we put them back into the fields—quite rightly; the public would be horrified if we kept our cattle penned in all year round—where they get reinfected by infected badgers and other wildlife. The disease then affects more healthy cattle, and yet more are taken out. Such a situation cannot go on. The previous Government prevaricated and did nothing about it, but this Government have bitten the bullet.
We must be convinced about the cull that we suggest. It is proposed in limited areas and is likely to take place in certain hot spots. One need only look at a map such as the one I am holding to see where those hot spots exist: mainly in the west country and Wales. It was asked how many farmers will sign up to the policy, but I assure hon. Members that in TB hot spots where farmers have been suffering with the disease for years, there will be no problem in signing up to a proper cull. We are talking about controlled shooting, not free shooting, and that must be carried out by people who are properly licensed and who use proper weapons. I am hugely keen on animal welfare.
Andrew Miller
Let me point out to the hon. Gentleman that in an article from 17 September 2010, the Minister said,
“my view is that free shooting would, in most cases, be by far the most effective option.”
Neil Parish
The hon. Gentleman will find that the issue has been looked at again, and that controlled shooting is the idea being proposed. We will train people to take part in that, so that it can be done humanely. That is absolutely vital. The hon. Gentleman also mentioned the comments of Lord Krebs after his trials, but many people dispute whether those trials were accurate. I believe that reducing the infected badger population will reduce the incidence of TB in cattle. There are no two ways about that; we must tackle the issue.
I will not repeat what has already been said, but I have a final point about cattle valuation. My hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) spoke earlier of the problem of pedigree cattle being taken out of England that are under tabular valuation. Those over 36 months old receive less compensation than non-pedigree cattle, and many farmers in Devon have to go to markets in Somerset and compete with Welsh farmers who have received huge amounts of compensation. It is necessary to get the valuations right.
I very much support what Ministers are doing. For too long, we have wrung our hands on this issue. We must take action, and take action now.
[Mr Christopher Chope in the Chair]
Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) on securing this important debate. I agree with the comment made by my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) that this issue is not black and white. That is why the previous Government did not prevaricate but instigated a 10-year scientific study in order to arrive at a considered view as to how we should proceed. It made use of the most extensive scientific evidence available on the impact of culling badgers. During 10 years, the study examined the effects of culling at 10 high-risk sites across England.
The independent scientific group in charge of considering the evidence relating to the study said that it concluded that badger culling could not
“meaningfully contribute to the future control of cattle TB in Britain.”
It has to be said—apparently, it has to be said repeatedly—that we have seen to date no new evidence to contradict the views of the ISG. There have been individual scientists who may disagree, but overall there has been no other significant study—[Interruption.] No, I will not give way. We have to move on because other hon. Members want to speak. There has been no other study on that scale that has come up with a view contrary to the one the ISG arrived at in 2010.
As has been said, Lord Krebs was absolutely clear. He said:
“I do not think culling is an effective policy because if you look at the evidence from the trial you will see that if you cull intensively for at least four years you will have a net benefit of reducing TB in cattle of 12 to 16 per cent, so you leave 85 per cent of the problem still there having gone to a huge amount of trouble to kill a huge amount of badgers. It just does not seem to me an effective way of controlling the disease.”
Indeed, Lord Krebs believes that the approach should be a combination of developing an effective long-term cattle vaccine and improving biosecurity and cattle management. That consideration has not been raised in today’s debate but should be an important one in tackling TB effectively. The Minister has already conceded that we are close to developing an effective cattle vaccine. If the EU is the obstacle, let us put our resources into dealing with that, rather than into culling badgers unnecessarily.
The deputy chair of the ISG has said that the reduction in the incidence of TB as a result of culling will not offset in financial terms the cost of culling. She is of course referring to the compensation that is not paid out because of the numbers culled and the reduction in the incidence of TB. In fact, it has been estimated that the impact of culling will be just a 2.5% reduction in herd breakdowns. That is on the basis of the Government’s proposal, as opposed to the rather comprehensive cull that would have to be undertaken, according to the ISG, in order for anything to be effective.
We know that the Home Secretary opposes a cull. We know, too, that the Government’s wildlife crime unit has raised key concerns about the proposed cull. It said:
“If the culls take place then there is a very real danger of illegal badger persecution being carried out under the pretext of culling activity.”
I was at the launch the other week of Operation Meles. The chief constable of Lincolnshire police was there, launching a campaign to reduce the incidence of the illegal killing of birds of prey and badgers. That is a major operation on the part of the unit. The chief constable made it clear that there is a real and significant link between wildlife crime and other forms of violent crime. Are we really going to see the Government give the go-ahead to an activity that could in many ways encourage those who would shoot and kill wildlife to believe that it is somehow legitimate to do so? The feeling will be, “If the Government can do it, why can’t I?” That point has to be borne in mind by the Government when they make their decision.
No case has been made for a cull. Nothing has changed since the ISG reported in 2010. I shall finish by asking the Minister three key questions. First, how much will the cull cost farmers? Secondly, in the best-case scenario, each cull will reduce the incidence of TB by only 16% over 10 years. Is that the sign of an effective policy? Finally, does the Minister agree with the assessment of the Wildlife Trusts that the scientific evidence does not support the culling of badgers and that it could make things even worse by disturbing the remaining badgers, thereby spreading the disease further?
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
Some of the points that I wanted to make have been made already and I shall not repeat them. I come from Somerset, which is a hot spot for bovine TB in the west country. Bovine TB is an appalling problem for farmers in both economic and social terms. I deal quite a lot with the Farm Crisis Network, which tries to relieve the stresses on the families concerned.
The Liberal Democrats are committed in the coalition agreement to pursuing a
“carefully managed and science-led policy of badger control in areas with high and persistent levels of bovine tuberculosis”.
I am concerned that, if successful, the badger control policy is expected to reduce incidences of bovine TB by only 16%. People have cited anything between 16% and 27%. We must ensure that robust measures are put in place to tackle the other 84% to 73%, depending on which figure is taken. Cattle controls, testing regimes and biosecurity measures, which are a crucial part of preventing the spread of the disease, are addressed in the proposals. I welcome the fact that £20 million has been set aside for continued development of a cattle vaccine and an oral badger vaccine. However, I am concerned that the approach to culling outlined in the guidance to Natural England varies significantly from the approach taken in the RBCT and is not, therefore, supported by scientific evidence. I am further concerned that it is proven that an ineffective cull increases incidences of bovine TB.
I take issue with the suggestion made in relation to the Government’s proposed area for culling, which is a 7½ mile by 7½ mile patch of land—150 sq km. The hon. Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon), who started the debate, suggested that there could be 30 badgers per square kilometre. I scaled those figures up. That suggests that in the culling area that the Government propose, there would be 4,500 badgers, which I somewhat doubt. Those who are not informed and who do not live in areas where this problem is fairly severe may take a different view. The suggestion is that a 70% clearance of the badgers might therefore lead to 3,150 badgers being killed in a six-week period. I do not think that that is correct, and I am sure the Minister will have a view on it.
I live very close to the location of Secret World, which is an organisation that protects badgers. It often collects the young badgers that have been left orphaned. It might be helpful if people understood that Pauline Kidner, the lady who runs that organisation, takes care to ensure that euthanasia is carried out when badgers that she collects from around the country are found to have TB, and that she does not just automatically release all badgers back on to whatever piece of land she chooses. Fairly stringent measures are taken against diseased badgers, even by those organisations that exist to help them.
Finally, I call on the Minister and ultimately the Secretary of State to ensure that the cattle testing regime is more stringently enforced. What are the Minister’s thoughts about including the removal of compensation payments for cattle where testing is overdue without just cause? Could compensation payments be tied to good biosecurity measures, with full payments being made to farmers who practise good biosecurity, and lower payments or the removal of payments being implemented for farmers who do not? Could the money saved from reduced compensation payments be used to set up a fund to make grants for capital works to farmers who wish further to improve their biosecurity measures? Could we ensure that each of the pilot schemes is carefully monitored by independent experts for their humaneness and effectiveness in achieving the required 70% reduction in the local badger population? Could any perturbation effects also be monitored? Could they be compared with those experienced in the RBCT? Finally, what are the implications of such an approach from a public safety perspective? The Secretary of State should hold—
Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair)
Order. I will have to interrupt the hon. Lady, because it has gone past 12.10.
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Lady’s excellent peroration. This has been an excellent debate, with passionate and well-informed contributions from all sides. There is great concern on the Opposition Benches about the efficacy and utility of the badger cull envisaged and designed by the Government. I therefore congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) on securing the debate and on the eloquent manner in which she presented her case. There is definitely room in this debate for townies, as well as country folk and everybody in between, because this is a matter of national interest.
I might not be able to take interventions, because I have a series of questions for the Minister, so I apologise in advance. In the mass of statistics and counter-statistics, and arguments and counter-arguments, we must not forget the tragedy of stock destruction, including the emotional cost to farmers and their families, and hon. Members have reminded us of that. The fears and tears of those involved in stock husbandry are real, and many here, myself included, have witnessed them first hand.
Tackling this issue effectively is far more important than simply being seen to do something. Let us start where I hope we can agree: science and evidence must be the foundation when it comes to tackling this terrible disease. They are why the Opposition query the course of action the Government are embarked on, and I want to ask the Minister several key questions.
Let us start with the ISGC’s 2007 report entitled “Bovine TB: The Scientific Evidence”. Although we would all acknowledge that there are many considered nuances in the report, this 10-year-long, peer-reviewed, expert-led, science-based study concluded that
“badger culling cannot meaningfully contribute to the future control of cattle TB.”
It also noted—presciently, given the Government’s current proposals—
“we consider it likely that licensing farmers (or their appointees) to cull badgers would not only fail to achieve a beneficial effect, but would entail a substantial risk of increasing the incidence of cattle TB and spreading the disease in space, whether licences were issued to individual farmers or to groups.”
That is pretty categoric.
Will the Minister therefore explain why he now so firmly disagrees with those findings and on what scientific and unarguable evidence basis he now feels something must be done, against the advice of this 10-year study? Will he clarify to Members and the country why he has taken against a view that remains the prevailing consensus among those involved in the science and the evidence? Will he explain why the ISGC has taken issue with his claim that his proposals for a cull, which use a very different methodology and different controls from the ISGC trials, would result in a 16% decrease in cattle TB? Why does he have a different figure?
It is important accurately to read into the record the ISGC’s response to the consultation so that the Minister can directly and accurately respond. The ISCG says:
“We note that Defra’s prediction of a 16% overall reduction in cattle TB over a nine year period is extrapolated directly from RBCT findings. This extrapolation assumes that Defra’s proposed culling method would achieve the same outcomes as those of proactive culling as conducted in the RBCT. We have repeatedly cautioned that the outcomes of the RBCT reflected the methods used, most recently noting that ‘the effects described here relate only to culling as conducted in the RBCT, i.e. deployment of cage traps by highly trained staff in coordinated, large scale, simultaneous operations, repeated annually for five years and then halted’. It should not be assumed that farmer led culling, conducted primarily by shooting free ranging badgers, would achieve the same outcomes as RBCT proactive culling.”
Would the Minister also care to share his observations on the clear consensus among responses to his consultation?
Huw Irranca-Davies
My apologies, but I am really up against time. I would love to have more time.
Will the Minister comment on the observation in the consultation document that
“culling predominantly by shooting free-ranging badgers would result in an increase in perturbation leading to an increase in herd breakdowns. This opinion was based on the assertion that shooting free-ranging badgers would be an ineffective method of control and that in practice farmers would not carry out the systematic, sustained and simultaneous cull that the RBCT proved was necessary to have a beneficial effect…A lack of hard boundaries and a robust means of ensuring compliance with licence criteria were key weaknesses raised with the Government’s preferred option”?
When the Minister answers that question, will he address the concerns of some that a lack of rigour in the methodology he prescribes under licence could actually be to the detriment of farmers and their herds? As the ISGC succinctly put it in its conclusions, it would be
“likely that licensing farmers (or their appointees) to cull badgers would not only fail to achieve a beneficial effect, but would entail a substantial risk of increasing the incidence of cattle TB and spreading the disease in space”.
What science and evidence does the Minister now have that contradicts that scientific evaluation of the increased risk of spreading the disease?
Linked to that, what assessment has the Minister made of the risk of farmers abandoning culling, especially if discouraged by an initial increase in the disease through the effects of perturbation, or as a result of farm abandonment, a change of ownership or many other scenarios? Assuming the Minister would wish to see the cull completed and would perhaps ask others to step in, what legal advice has he received on the ability to enforce a cull on privately owned land once it has commenced and been abandoned by the landowner? Would a group of farmers have to come forward collectively as a legal entity to be able to enforce a cull against the wishes, or following the withdrawal, of one of its members?
The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, among others, noted the desirability of vaccination buffer zones around highly infected areas to assist in controlling the spread of the disease. It added that this
“may require the Government to incentivise the process so as to ensure a high enough level of participation.”
What assessment has the Minister made of the necessity for, and cost of, such buffer zones? He will not want to say that he will not know until we have a licence application on the table, because that would be Humphreyesque. He and his officials must have examined the need for such buffer zones and the likely cost implications, and it would be useful for Parliament to have that on the record.
Sir David King wrote an article in July, entitled “If we want dairy farms, we must cull badgers”. The ISGC responded by saying that it
“contributes little scientific insight to the debate on controlling cattle TB. Defra has proposed that badger culls be initiated and funded by farmers themselves. Having overseen a decade-long programme of independently-audited and peer-reviewed research on this topic, we caution that such culls may not deliver the anticipated reductions in cattle TB. King previously agreed with our conclusion that—because of the way culling affects badgers’ ecology—only large-scale, highly coordinated, simultaneous and sustained culls could have positive impacts. Delivering and maintaining such culls would raise substantial challenges for farmers, with a risk of increasing, rather than reducing, disease incidence. Defra’s own assessments suggest that participating farmers will lose more, financially, than they gain. King asserts that shooting free-ranging badgers—Defra’s preferred culling method—‘would be an effective and considerably cheaper alternative’, but there are no empirical data on the cost or effectiveness (or indeed humaneness or safety) of controlling badgers by shooting, which has been illegal for decades. If the government decides to proceed with this untested and risky approach, it is vital that it also instigates well-designed monitoring of the consequences.”
I have some sympathy with the Minister, because the issue has been long debated, and the arguments have been heated and the science disputed. There has, for instance, long been disagreement between Sir David and the ISG. When the original ISG report was published in 2007, Professor John Bourne, its lead author, noted that Sir David’s response and subsequent recommendations in favour of a cull were not consistent with the scientific findings of his report but were
“consistent with the political need to do something about it”.
Why does that sound eerily familiar? Ah yes: “Something must be done. This is something. Therefore we must do it,” says Jim Hacker, in “Yes Minister”. It is not only animal welfare groups such as the Badger Trust and the RSPCA that demand answers; it is the general public. However, it is also on behalf of and in the best interest of farmers that I ask the Minister to answer the questions as fully and directly as possible. They need to be sure that they are not being sold a pup—a very expensive, incontinent and unruly pup that could do a lot more damage than good.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)
I shall try to answer most of the questions of the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) and, indeed, other hon. Members. I offer apologies to any hon. Member whom I do not answer fully. However, the answers to several of the hon. Gentleman’s questions are in the documents that we have published. He has asked me questions the answers to which he can discover, if he has not already read them.
I congratulate the hon. Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon). I have several times appeared before the Select Committee of which she is a member, and I recognise her commitment to the issues. She began with a superb explanation of the situation, and said that levels of TB are unacceptable, and that badgers are widespread and densely populated, which is perfectly correct. Arguably, that population density is the kernel of the problem. She referred, as other hon. Members have done, to the random badger control trials and the independent scientific group. I should emphasise, of course, that it was the previous Conservative Government who appointed Lord Krebs to look into the issue. The setting up of the trials by the Labour Government was the result of his recommendation—it happened in a cross-electoral period.
Despite the jibes of the hon. Member for Ogmore about Jim Hacker—and I remind the hon. Gentleman that he went on to be Prime Minister—I do not believe that doing nothing should be an option. The hon. Member for North Tyneside rightly referred to the comment of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that if we do not do anything, the problem will cost us £1 billion in 10 years. That is the reality, but worse than the costs is the continued spread of the disease into parts of the country where currently it does not exist. That is the fundamental issue, which has not been addressed by anyone. The hon. Lady also referred to other countries, such as New Zealand and the United States; she did not mention Australia, where the same point is true: they are all working on vaccines. However, they have all culled the wildlife that was a reservoir of the disease.
Much has been made of the issue of the science and the ISG. I am sure that time will stop me going through all the detail, but let us be clear: the figure of 16% that has been mentioned has been signed up to in the document on the Government’s website. That is signed by Lord Krebs, Professor Christl Donnelly, Lord May and a number of other eminent scientists. They all agree about it. The document contains a clear statement about what happened in the cull zone. That is after nine and a half years, so, to answer the point made by the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) about there being no new science, there is new science, because we have measurements from beyond the end of the period in question, and beyond the point when the previous Secretary of State made his decision. The new science shows that the incidence of TB in the culling zones fell by up to 34%. As my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) mentioned, the incidence in the perturbation ring went up, but then went down and reverted to the norm. That is the new evidence we have.
It is perfectly true, as the document states and as has been repeated today, that we are not proposing simply to replicate the ISG approach, because we propose shooting, and we propose that farmers, while not literally doing the work themselves, should be responsible for having it done. The two are variations, and some scientists suggest that what is envisaged might not be as effective, but that is why we are conducting two pilots. We have announced—although we have not made the final decision yet—our proposal to conduct two pilots, to establish effectiveness: whether it is possible to cull 70% of badgers in a six-week period; and whether it is humane. I cannot remember which hon. Member challenged me on who would check what is going on; but there will be independent monitors on site, watching badgers being shot. There will be post mortems, so we shall examine the effectiveness and humanity of what happens, and of course safety. Those are the variations from the ISG, and that is why we should seriously consider conducting two trials.
The argument keeps coming back to the science, and the science is the results from the ISG. Everything else since then is conjecture, whether from Lord Krebs, me or any hon. Member. To answer the question about empirical evidence, there is no empirical evidence—but we are trying to find it. That is why we propose two trials. Lord Krebs has no more basis for his conjectures than I do.
Mr Paice
No, I am sorry; I cannot give way.
I must emphasise to those hon. Members who challenged on the shooting issue that shooting wildlife, whether they agree with it or not—and let us not get into the emotions of it—is a common practice. Foxes and deer are commonly shot, and the surrounding animal communities are not shot in the process.
Mr Paice
No; I am not giving way.
Secondly, we propose that badgers be attracted to a baited area where it would safe to shoot, and trained marksmen—not trained by farmers, as one hon. Member said, but trained and authenticated by external bodies—would do the shooting. There is a lot of emotion involved. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello), who has left the Chamber, spoke a diatribe of nonsense about this issue.
On perturbation, the ISG rightly based its conclusions on its studies, from which two fundamental points arose. First, we have addressed the costs issue by proposing that farmers do the work; it is up to them. The decision whether it is worth it for farmers is not for the Government to make; it is for the individual farmers. Secondly, we have clearly stipulated that we will expect those groups of farmers to tell us what they will do to minimise perturbation.
There are several issues. First, we believe that the applications will be for a much bigger area than 150 sq km and that it is more likely to be 300 sq km. That means that the perturbation zone will be proportionately smaller, which helps considerably. Secondly, we will encourage and expect farmers to bring forward hard boundaries that badgers cannot cross. They will be able to use buffer ring vaccination, if they choose to do so. As an aside, I should say that we wholly support vaccination, using the current methodology, if people want to do it.
The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) made a sound speech, although I did not agree with all its conclusions, but the issue of borders is clearly dealt with. Tuberculosis is not an issue for Scotland, which does not have it. There is virtually none in the north of England; so we can forget that. The issue for Wales has been clearly set out. The document that we have already published states that if there is a zone that goes within 2 km of the border with Wales, the Welsh Environment and Countryside Department will have to be consulted. I suspect—although this should not be taken as gospel—that it is highly unlikely that a trial would happen so close to the Welsh border.
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Tessa Munt) about biosecurity, more stringent testing and overdue testing. We propose to reduce or abandon compensation where farmers are overdue. She asked me about numbers, and I agree with her that the figures she extrapolated are well out of sync. We anticipate that about 1,000 to 1,500 badgers would be killed, as a total over the four years, for every 150 sq km area.
I suspect, Mr Chope, that I have just about run out of time to address the key issues, although I hope that I have covered them. The subject is important and I have tried to deal with it without emotion. It is easy for both sides of the debate to get emotive. If there are any points I have not covered, I ask hon. Members to write to me and I shall do my best to answer.
Steart Point
(13 years ago)
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Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)
It is nice to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Chope, and I am sure that you will keep your hands warm.
I am grateful for the chance again to debate Steart in my constituency, although I am actually also disappointed that we are debating the matter again. In January this year, I stood, I think on this very spot, to deliver a robust speech on the shortcomings of the Environment Agency, the body responsible for many things in my constituency, including flood prevention. At the time, the agency had concluded a ridiculously expensive consultation exercise to try to convince local people of the merits of a long-term plan. It basically wanted to flood Steart peninsula and create a new habitat for visiting sea birds, and it intended to spend a shed load of public money—roughly £28 million—to do that. I believed then, as I do now, that that would be the wrong thing to do.
For a while in the aftermath of the original debate, and prompted by the common-sense attitude of the Minister, there appeared to be an outbreak of sanity and a chance for a sensible conclusion to the matter. Just a few weeks ago, the Minister kindly wrote to me and two of my colleagues who represent neighbouring constituencies—my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose) and my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox). He had quite rightly called in the Environment Agency to discuss the concerns about the Severn flood risk management project, of which Steart is a part. In the letter, the Minister said:
“The Environment Agency is now reflecting on the response to its public consultations and reviewing its initial proposals”.
That was a great relief to the three of us. The meaning of a review, which the Minister referred to quite clearly, is crystal clear in my book—it means a fresh look. However, just a few days later, a briefing note was sent to me directly from the agency, which seemed to completely contradict the Minister’s words. It said:
“Steart Peninsula is not a location which is under review”.
The author had even underlined the word “not”. That is extraordinary, and it prompts a number of serious questions about the credibility and trustworthiness of the agency.
My constituents need and want to know what is going on. I am forced to conclude that the Environment Agency is suffering from delusions of grandeur. It regards itself as guardian of the planet—we know that anyway—with its dangerous mixture of King Canute and old mother nature, pushing back the tide and issuing pompous decrees all the time. It is, as the Minister knows, unelected, untouchable and, in many cases, unloved. It does not seem to take any notice of Ministers, and I am afraid that it is not just the Minister here, but former Ministers. Perhaps it has a hotline to God? I do not know. It certainly has a hotline to Brussels, which of course you, Mr Chope, are a fan of. Brussels has vested it with enormous legal powers to flood perfectly good land. The agency behaves rather like Judge Solomon. It thinks that if natural coastal erosion is to be stopped in one place, territorial sacrifices must be made in another, and it decides whose fields go under water.
What worries me more than anything is the methods that the agency uses. The plan to flood Steart is not new—it has been on the cards for well over a decade—and the agency has got thus far by a relentless drip, drip, drip process. For nine years, it has argued that Steart should be returned to the sea. It operates on the principle that if it keeps saying the same thing, sooner or later someone will believe it.
Hon. Members may be surprised to learn that the Environment Agency is also a fearsome land-grabber, quite capable—I say this advisedly—of using dirty tricks on unsuspecting victims. Several years ago, the agency started buying up real estate in and around Steart, which is fair enough. One farmer was approached and warned that if he did not sell up straight away, there would be a compulsory purchase order later. That has now gone from one farmer to a few farmers. In my book, that is sharp practice, bordering on—again, I say this advisedly—blackmail. At the time, the plans were not even finalised and there had not been proper consultation. Yet the agency made threats and bought people out at a fraction of even today’s prices. I only wish that those people had approached me, as their MP, before they signed up.
I have never seen a compelling scientific argument for flooding Steart, and I doubt whether one exists. The agency makes all sorts of woolly comparisons with how the coast is being protected on the Welsh side of the Severn estuary to justify letting in the tide to do its worst beyond Otterhampton and Stockland. It calls that approach “realigning defences”, which in Steart’s case means not bothering to defend anything. I fear that the Steart peninsula has been picked because it is under-populated, low-lying and has a history of getting wet. It is the sort of place that the agency thinks that it can get away with quietly drowning. Well, we have some news for the Environment Agency, because Steart is not going under without a struggle.
There is another player in this strange tale of mystery, myths and half-truths, which is the Bristol Port Company. Bristol is 40 miles north of Steart, but the firm that runs the port is now pouring cash into Steart, and one might be forgiven for wondering why. The port has big ambitions. It wants to attract huge container vessels, and it needs to build a deep-water terminal to load and unload them—there are no problems there. However, the Bristol Port Company has had an eye on European law and directives. It will need to remove a section of the Severn estuary coastline, which the law says must be replaced by flooding some other unsuspecting place. Therefore, the Bristol Port Company rolled into Steart, with —I say this openly—cheesy grins and cheque books at the ready.
The Environment Agency did not mind, because having the company on board seemed to help its case a little. The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, the Wetlands Trust, and even Natural England jumped on board, promising a brave new world for Bristol’s homeless buff-breasted sandpipers. “Come to sunny Steart,” they squawked. “All you need is a beak and a few feathers.”
Unfortunately, locally, the argument does not hold much water. The Bristol Port Company may have secured planning permission to dig up the sea shore for its new deep-water terminal, but it has not raised the vast sums of money needed to pay for the work. The company does not own Bristol port, but leases it from the city council. Do not tell anyone here, but now is not a good time for raising capital on the scale the company is going to need. Most investors require a firm guarantee of returns, and a leased port is not good.
There is a clear question mark hanging over the new development. If that question mark remains in Bristol, there must be serious questions about Steart, too. The case for flooding Steart depends on scientific evidence, which the Environment Agency cannot produce, and on the loss of a wetland habitat in Bristol, which has not been lost, because the container port will be built on a man-made structure. In other words, the Steart flood plan is based on protecting birds that have not been evicted at all.
I have two words for the Environment Agency and the Bristol Port company: get busted, the pair of them. If Steart were flooded, it would drive away rare, large birds. The great bustard is one of our locals. The birds were once hunted—we were talking about badgers just now—to the point of extinction and were reintroduced only seven years ago. Now there are bustards that winter on the Somerset levels and drop in and out of Steart from time to time.
The Environment Agency believes that it has a legal obligation to flood Steart because of coastal erosion elsewhere. The only thing that the Steart plan has in its favour is the fact that it has been dressed up to look like a plan—and a bad one at that. The agency admits:
“Without this scheme we will not be able to develop measures to manage flood risk to people and property elsewhere around the Severn Estuary.”
In other words, it will be up the Parrett without a paddle if it does not flood Steart. However, I find it hard to believe that there are no viable alternatives, which brings me back to where I began. The Minister believes that the agency is reviewing its plans, but the agency believes that it is doing no such thing—certainly not with Steart.
There is a worrying lack of clarity, which I gently urge the Minister to address. The Environment Agency and the Bristol Port Company intend to apply to the district councils of Sedgemoor and West Somerset for permission to flood Steart. We already know that the Agency intends to spend roughly £28 million on its share of the operation. Remember, we are talking about public money here, and this is at a time when all other public money is rightly subject to the most clinical accounting procedures. Why on earth has the agency escaped the axe on this proposal? The scale of expenditure is far too high at a time when the nation is feeling the pinch.
Somerset is already losing libraries, and some of my local schools really need refurbishing, which we cannot do. We also urgently need a new hospital and a road to take construction traffic to Hinkley Point, which is our nuclear power station. I am sure that this is not the right moment to embark on flooding Steart.
I also invite the Minister to address the subject of planning gain. That is part and parcel of the planning process in which authorities such as the Environment Agency are obliged to provide compensation to communities. What will local people get out of the scheme? The agency has said:
“Creating wetland habitats will provide benefits, not only for people who live on the peninsula but also for birds, fish and other wildlife.”
Such a twee vision would have made more sense coming from the lips of Tinky Winky, Dipsy, La-La or Po. The agency, which trots out such drivel, is meant to be staffed by experts. In reality, the only thing that Steart will get out of the flood plan is a huge pile of bird droppings and, hopefully, an invasion of twitchers.
The Environment Agency has bullied landowners and it is now contradicting the Minister. Its reputation in my constituency is not good at the best of times. The danger is that some of the mud will rub off on my hon. Friend the Minister, because there is an enormous amount of misunderstanding. I invite the Minister to think about his response. Many people in my constituency are worried about where this will end. I ask him to clarify what is happening at Steart peninsula. Both the Environment Agency and the Bristol Port Company should be aware of what the Government want rather than the Environment Agency just telling us what is going to happen.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset (Mr Liddell-Grainger) on securing another debate and on making a number of good points.
The Steart scheme is an essential project with many positive points. I have to tell my hon. Friend that I have looked at the matter from every angle and I believe it to be the only viable way in which the Government can continue to provide defences and secure access to the village while also meeting our environmental objectives for the estuary.
The Severn estuary is an important wildlife area as well as a great economic asset. It has more than 200 km of coastal defences, which will provide, over time, benefits in excess of £5 billion to more than 100,000 residential and commercial properties. The shoreline management plan highlights the need to maintain and improve most of the defences. However, as a consequence of that there will be a substantial loss of internationally designated inter-tidal habitat.
Our investment prioritisation process is focused principally on protecting people and property and that is where the vast majority of our money is spent. However, we also have obligations under the EU habitats directive to maintain or restore natural habitats and the population of species of wild fauna and flora at a favourable conservation status. Together with the birds directive, it is a key element in the EU’s commitment to halt the loss of biodiversity within the EU by 2020.
Despite the impact on the natural environment, we will continue to invest in the defence of the Severn estuary. There is clearly an imperative reason to do so. Such work is permitted under the habitats directive as long as appropriate compensatory habitat is secured. Our plans to manage and improve the defences depend on sufficient compensatory habitat being secured before the protected habitat is lost due to flood defence construction works. There has already been a loss in the Severn estuary and, without the Steart scheme, such losses mean we are failing to maintain the integrity of the protected Natura 2000 site.
The Environment Agency has consulted on the Severn estuary flood risk management strategy and, in the light of the responses received together with the latest scientific advice on climate change, it has decided to review the initial proposals within the strategy—that was the point of the letter to my hon. Friend. That was a response to the very serious and genuine concerns that have been raised not just in his neighbourhood but right up the Severn estuary. I urge him to look at the difference between that macro policy and the micro issue that exists around the Steart. The scheme has been in development for three years, and has involved the local community throughout its development. It is not part of the review of the wider strategy, because it is needed urgently and it has strong local support. Beyond the short term, it is unlikely to be economically viable or sustainable to maintain the existing defences for Steart, which are in poor condition. To do so would cost in the region of £1 million per property. Therefore, it is of benefit to the local community if this project is implemented as soon as possible.
I have received many letters from people in the area in support of the scheme. Mr Barry Leathwood, the chair of Otterhampton parish council, said:
“The Agency has consulted extensively with the Otterhampton Parish Council which includes the villages of Combwich, Otterhampton and Steart and also with the various individuals and organisations in the area for a prolonged period of time. The project is overwhelmingly supported by the residents and this Council. It is our wish that the project be developed without delay.”
Andrew Darch of Brufords farm, Steart, said:
“Although under the EA’s proposals there is a large amount of agricultural land that will be converted to saltmarsh, this farmland would become very vulnerable to regular flooding without the schemes, devaluing the land considerably.”
I have also heard from Mike Caswell. He said:
“The consultation work carried out by the two companies”—
the Environment Agency and the Bristol Port Company—
“has been first class and they have always, without fail, responded to a request for a meeting with either groups or single individuals.”
I have seen letters to the local press from Dr Phillip Edwards, the chair of the Steart residents’ group, and from Otterhampton parish council. There seems to be a head of steam from local people who want this scheme to go ahead. There may be others who do not. Clearly, my hon. Friend sees dark forces at play. He sees the Environment Agency acting as the malign and evil arm of some secret service from the European Union making life miserable for his constituents, but that is not a view that is shared by the majority of his constituents—or at least by the ones who have written to me or to his local press.
I want to unravel the concerns of my hon. Friend. Undoubtedly, there is a problem here. The scheme is not about flooding the area, although that may happen over time with rising sea levels. The land has been purchased by the Environment Agency. If I were to put a blue pencil through the whole scheme, as my hon. Friend wants me to do, we would have to find new buyers for the land, which would be at some cost to the taxpayer. This is a good scheme that has been consulted on and carried through and I am at a loss to know why my hon. Friend continues with this concern.
The shoreline management plan has considered the issue and highlighted the Steart peninsula as somewhere where the managed realignment of the defence provides the best option for continuing to protect the village and its access as well as creating habitat to offset the environmental impact of flood defence work elsewhere in the estuary. Indeed, Steart has been identified as the most cost-effective place in the estuary for habitat creation without causing geomorphological side effects, such as adjacent erosion. That is a major factor.
The twin objectives of the Steart scheme are, first, to create habitat and, secondly and very importantly, to protect the village of Steart and its access. The scheme forms a vital part of an integrated and sustainable coastal management solution for the Severn estuary. It will provide the only foreseeable opportunity to improve flood protection to Steart Drove, which is the only access route to Steart village. It will also help to maintain the existing standard of protection, and the new defences can be expected to last far longer than the current defences.
The Steart scheme combines the creation of a substantial area of compensatory habitat in the most cost-effective way with better flood defence for the community. These factors make the scheme an integral part of whatever decisions are taken on the wider Severn estuary flood risk management strategy, which as my hon. Friend knows is under review. That is why the Steart scheme cannot be taken as part of that review. I hope that I have helped to clarify for my hon. Friend the importance of managing flood risk in a way that not only protects people and property, and delivers good value for money to the taxpayer, but meets our environmental obligations.
I am quite well aware of the concerns of many hon. Members—indeed, I share them—when directives that are created many miles from here impact on people’s lives at a very local level. I can assure my hon. Friend that I do not take lying down the words of directives. If I can find a way around them, because I feel that they are having a malign effect on the taxpayer or on his constituents or my own, I will take a very robust view on that. However, in this case I believe that the scheme is in the best interests of the people who live in Steart and of the wider estuary. I also believe that it has been properly consulted on and has local support. Therefore, I hope that we can now progress the scheme and that my hon. Friend’s constituents can be reassured that those people who live in Steart have a future, that their access to their community will not be cut off and that we are carrying through a scheme that they have been consulted on and that they fully understand. Our emphasis has always been that we must work with nature, wherever possible, to reduce the risks to people, while also meeting social and environmental objectives.
I can find no evidence that the Environment Agency has threatened people or behaved in a way other than the normal consultative process involved in trying to find a willing agreement to sell land. The threat of compulsory purchase is just not part of how the agency does business. The agency does not resort to compulsory purchase unless it cannot establish who a particular landowner is. Its purpose is to reach agreement and to reach a price that should reflect market conditions. If a compulsory purchase has to be made, the price is calculated by the district valuer and it has to be a market value at the time. If people feel that the price that they negotiated with the Environment Agency was wrong, they can find a market value. I understand that in this scheme that market value was achieved.
I hope that we can put this matter to bed now and that the Steart scheme can go ahead.
Renovation of Empty Property (VAT)
(13 years ago)
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Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Chope.
I wanted to secure this debate because of the pressure to build on the green spaces and the green belt in Sefton and elsewhere. Sefton council is consulting on its core strategy and, using the figures in the regional spatial strategy, it says it needs 480 new homes each year. To achieve that target, the council has suggested three options, two of which imply significant incursion into the green belt. The draft national planning policy framework does not continue the brownfield-first policy, and councils are not allowed to include windfall development sites, such as the Maghull prison site in my constituency, which would deliver several hundred homes. In addition, empty homes cannot be counted towards a council’s target, and so the 6,000 such properties across Sefton are not included in the figures. All that means that councils need an alternative strategy for building the homes that we—especially our young people—need. Affordable housing is in such short supply. A sustainable policy is needed, and a cut in VAT on the renovation and refurbishment of empty properties would contribute significantly to delivering the housing targets at the same time as protecting the green belt and important urban green space.
The VAT regime perversely incentivises new build on greenfield land because it attracts 0% VAT. A cut in VAT to 5% on the renovation and reuse of existing buildings would allow greater emphasis to be placed on urban regeneration, on which VAT is levied at 20%. The “Cut the VAT” campaign has a wide coalition of support; it is run by the Federation of Master Builders and supported by many organisations, including the Campaign for the Protection of Rural England and the Federation of Small Businesses. There would be many benefits to reducing VAT on building repairs and conversions, and there are strong environmental, economic and social grounds for doing so. In general, subjecting repairs and conversions to VAT is damaging, because it acts as a deterrent to urban regeneration, the proper maintenance of buildings and our caring for the historic environment.
The differential between VAT rates on new build and on repair creates a perverse incentive to leave properties in a state of disrepair or to demolish sound buildings, rather than encouraging their effective use and maintenance. The differential adds to the cost of bringing buildings back into use through repair, renovation or conversion, and contributes to a cycle of decline, because run-down areas are generally a less attractive proposition for investors and developers, even though they might present significant opportunities. I believe that the Government would agree with that analysis. I am looking for the Economic Secretary to nod—she is not doing so.
The additional cost that VAT adds to repairs and refurbishment distorts the market in favour of new build over reuse and refurbishment, which means that developers are incentivised to bring forward new development on greenfield sites before attempting to bring existing resources back into useful occupation. As well as assisting regeneration, making productive use of existing buildings can play an important role in conserving scarce resources such as the land, energy and building materials bound up in the properties, and such an approach also contributes to reducing waste. Government statistics indicate that there are more than 750,000 empty houses in England, and there are many other empty and underused buildings. That is an enormous waste of resources, and a reduction in VAT on refurbishment to create a level playing field between refurbishment and new build would, therefore, make a lot of sense.
Historically, it has been argued that a VAT reduction is not possible because of EU laws. However, the European Commission’s Economic and Financial Affairs Council agreed in March 2009 to allow member states to reduce VAT on housing repair and maintenance, so that barrier appears to have been lifted. The cut in VAT on renovation is now an option that would promote regeneration, bring empty buildings back into use and minimise the use of greenfield land.
Turning to the impact on the construction industry, a VAT cut from 20% to 5% would reduce rogue traders’ competitive advantage and help rescue many legitimate local firms from the brink of collapse. Dozens of small and medium-sized businesses would benefit considerably from a VAT cut on home repair, maintenance and improvement work, and that is why the campaign I mentioned has the support of the Federation of Master Builders. Given these tough economic times, a cut would make a huge difference to many small firms, certainly in constituencies such as mine. It would also make important home repairs more affordable, and help protect consumers from cowboy builders who currently flourish by evading VAT. It is a logical step to help boost the economy, and I call on the Government to take it as a matter of urgency.
The UK economy is facing a weak recovery from the recent recession. Output in the construction industry shrank faster than the economy as a whole during the recession, and recent forecasts suggest there will be no significant sign of recovery in the industry until 2014. Successful trials in a number of EU countries strongly suggest that a cut in VAT on home repair and improvement work would reap economic benefits for the UK. Independent research by Experian, based on a standard VAT rate of 17.5%, suggests that the total stimulus effect of reducing VAT in the sector would be in the region of £1.4 billion in the first year alone.
According to the Office for National Statistics, 249,000 work force jobs have been lost in the construction sector alone since 2007, and that has had a big effect on the Government’s finances as well as a considerable human impact. We know from independent research that a cut in VAT on home repair and improvement work would create thousands of new jobs in the construction sector and the wider economy. Again, independent Experian research based on a standard VAT rate of 17.5% suggests that 24,200 extra construction jobs could be created in the first year alone if VAT on home improvements was cut to 5%. According to the same research, such growth in the construction industry would also lead to 31,000 new jobs in the wider economy.
Those significant job losses—249,000—risk creating a major skills shortage in future years, unless the industry can recruit and train sufficient numbers of people now. The number of construction apprenticeship starts fell by 4,010 between 2008-09 and 2009-10. Almost 1 million people under the age of 25 are currently unemployed, but when the construction industry returns to more sustainable levels of growth there will not be a sufficient number of people equipped with the right skills to meet demand. It will be difficult for employers to make more apprenticeship places available unless there is an increase in construction activity.
We are building fewer than half the number of new homes needed to match the rate of household growth in the UK, and it is therefore shocking that there are up to 750,000 empty homes. Many of those homes require considerable repair work before they can be lived in, and the high rate of VAT makes that a very costly activity for private owners, landlords and local authorities, who could otherwise renovate more existing properties to help ease the pressure on housing supply. Making home repair and improvement work more affordable would encourage the use of existing structures, rather than continuing the urban sprawl and the possible building on green belt land.
Existing homes contribute about 27% of the UK’s total CO2 emissions, and there is a vast amount of work to be done if the UK is to meet the legally binding emission-reduction targets. A simple, single cut in VAT on home repair and maintenance work would help millions of households to upgrade their homes and make them more energy efficient. Without help to reduce energy use, the number of households living in fuel poverty will continue to grow, as they struggle to protect themselves against rising fuel prices.
According to trading standards organisations, rogue traders steal a staggering £170 million each year from unsuspecting home owners across Britain, and cause significant damage to law-abiding businesses. Rogue traders flourish by evading VAT in order to offer a cheap deal. However, all too often, the deal comes without a proper written contract or any kind of paperwork, making the enforcement of consumer rights almost impossible if something goes wrong.
Again, a simple, single action to cut VAT to 5% on home repair and improvement work would protect consumers and legitimate businesses by significantly reducing rogue traders’ competitive advantage. By charging 20% VAT on all home repair, maintenance and improvement work, the Government are exacerbating numerous serious social, economic and environmental problems. Introducing a reduced rate of VAT for all home repair and improvement work is a simple plan to relieve the country of many of those problems.
Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair)
May I give our newest Minister a warm welcome from the Chair?
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe Smith)
Thank you, Mr Chope. I am grateful for your warm welcome. I thank the hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) for securing this debate. I acknowledge some of the good arguments that he made, but I believe that his proposal is not the right tool for achieving economic growth. I shall deal with some of his specific points, including a note on apprenticeships, a little on energy supply and some remarks on green opportunities for householders.
The hon. Gentleman made some sensible arguments regarding the reuse of empty properties. Of course, we would all like existing housing stock to be put to good use; I know that from my constituency, as I am confident he does from his. He also made good points about the need in the current economic situation to support small businesses as best we can, and about evasion. I shall come to those points, but I will begin with a few words about the Government’s policy on empty property in the round before discussing the specifics of how VAT applies to empty property. I reassure you, Mr Chope, before I veer anywhere near being off-subject, that tackling the country’s 700,000 empty homes is a priority for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, as promoting growth and apprenticeships are for all my other colleagues.
The hon. Gentleman will know that in this year’s Budget, the Government announced £180 million for up to 50,000 additional apprenticeship places over the next four years. That is real action, and I am sure that hon. Members agree that it will meet some of the concerns raised in this debate.
On 20 September this year, the Department for Communities and Local Government announced more powers for community groups to bring empty homes back into use. Community and voluntary organisations will be able to bid for a share of £100 million in Government funding to pioneer housing schemes to help ensure that empty properties are lived in again. That will also help to provide more affordable housing, which I am sure the hon. Gentleman welcomes.
Bill Esterson
I welcome the Minister to her role. I do not know whether this is the first debate that she has responded to, but I congratulate her on her appointment. She mentioned the £100 million available to community groups. How many homes are expected to be brought back into use as a result?
Miss Smith
I will ensure that the hon. Gentleman receives a specific figure, as I do not have it with me. However, as I will discuss—this goes straight to the heart of the issue—incentives also exist for councils to bring empty homes back into use by including them in the new homes bonus, which he will know about. I think this figure will reassure him: after just one year of the new homes bonus, 16,000 previously empty properties have been brought back into use.
The Department for Communities and Local Government will also consult in due course on plans to allow local councils further discretion to introduce a council tax premium on homes in their area that have been empty for more than two years. That will provide a stronger incentive to get those homes back into productive use—an aim I am sure the hon. Gentleman and I share, as do other colleagues—and remove that blight on local neighbourhoods.
It might be helpful to the hon. Gentleman if I explain how VAT applies to empty property. He might be unaware of some reliefs that go a significant way towards meeting the demands of the “Cut the VAT” campaign. The VAT system already provides for numerous reliefs from the standard rate of VAT, as he will know, but some reliefs particularly encourage new housing supply and the bringing of empty properties back into use as homes. The first sale of a new domestic property is zero-rated for VAT, as are most supplies of goods and services used in the construction of a new build, as he acknowledged. However, he might not be aware that the renovation or alteration of residential premises that have not been lived in for two years benefits from a 5% reduction in the rate of VAT. He mentioned European constraints. The 5% reduced rate of VAT exists, and is the minimum available, under long-standing EU VAT legislation. The reduced rate also applies when properties are converted from non-residential to residential, and when the occupancy of existing residential property is increased.
Wide relief already exists for the renovation and conversion of empty properties. I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree that that goes some way towards meeting the valid concerns that he raised about the homes in which his constituents might live. He might not be aware that the “Cut the VAT” campaign’s report makes it clear as early as page 5 that
“the many and varied exceptions that exist within the housing RM&I VAT regime…can easily lead to confusion as to what attracts VAT at the standard rate and what attracts a reduced rate.”
The report goes on to provide a helpful table summarising the available reduced rates, including for
“Renovation or alteration of empty residential premises”.
I know that the hon. Gentleman is a keen supporter of the campaign, as are those on the Opposition Front Bench. For the most part, the VAT reduction for which he asks specifically for the renovation and refurbishment of empty homes is already available.
Bill Esterson
I am aware of those points. I have a copy of the campaign document, as does the Minister. Is she also aware of the Prime Minister’s commitment to the Federation of Master Builders? He agreed to write to Treasury Ministers to consider the case for cutting VAT on home repair and improvement work. Does she know whether he has done so, whether he has received the response and what it might be?
Miss Smith
The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that I have just spent my first two days at No. 1 Horse Guards. I shall of course ascertain the location of that letter. However, I will suggest a few things that I have absolutely no doubt the Prime Minister will bear in mind as he considers the issue.
Wider VAT reduction risks a serious impact on public finances. I know the hon. Gentleman will be aware of that, despite some of the comments that he made this morning to the Formby Times. For example, if the rate of VAT on residential property renovation and refurbishment were reduced to 5%, it would cost £2.2 billion in the first year alone. If the rate were reduced for five years, it would cost £2.4 billion each year. If it continued for a decade, the cost to the Exchequer—to his constituents and mine—would rise to £2.9 billion for every year of that period. To put those figures in context, that would cost more annually than the entire budget for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and double the budget for the Department for Culture, Media and Sport
I therefore do not accept the claim that cutting the VAT rate for the home improvement sector would lead to a net increase in jobs across the economy as a whole or pay for itself over several years. Although the impact could be positive, we know the real likely impact. If we made such a cut, the revenue shortfall would have to be met from additional taxation elsewhere, which would lead to job losses that would offset any job gains in the building sector. Alternatively, we would need to meet the cost through additional borrowing, which would risk increasing interest rates. As the hon. Gentleman will know, higher interest rates would have an adverse impact on families and small businesses, including businesses in the building sector. I am afraid that there is no such thing as a free pass without effects elsewhere in the economy.
The Government want to provide support across the entire economy for businesses and households.
Bill Esterson
I had anticipated the Minister’s comments, because this morning I received a written answer from her colleague, the Exchequer Secretary. I understand the Treasury analysis, but the answer mentions
“in the absence of behavioural change”.
Such behavioural change would include the impact on cowboy builders and the economic benefits of people spending money in the sector and being able to afford home improvements, so there is a balance. I also mentioned earlier the £1.4 billion impact on the economy that Experian anticipated under the old VAT regime. Will the Minister comment, either today or in due course, on the assessment of the impact of behavioural change, and not just of the figures that she has quoted in isolation?
Miss Smith
Let me first deal with behavioural change in relation to rogue trading, because it is important to put this on the record. I do not accept that a reduced rate of VAT would suddenly cause the illegitimate trade to become honest. I do not believe that behaviour changes in that sense—5% can be as attractive, in many ways, as 20% to a crook. There are many other factors—this is key—beside cost that cause a customer to use the informal economy, and a trader to operate in it. It is unlikely that a reduction in the rate of VAT, which is only one factor, would have an impact on rogue trading and purchasing.
On the wider point of evasion, the hon. Gentleman may be interested to know that Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is investing £900 million to tackle avoidance and evasion and attacks by organised criminals, and that relates to the construction industry. A reduction of the VAT rate alone would not create a level playing field between legitimate businesses and those operating in the informal economy. I fear that his concerns about behavioural change, in that sense, do not go to the heart of the matter.
I will be happy to come back to the hon. Gentleman on the specifics of the Experian report. I am afraid I do not have the figures to hand, so I cannot respond on the spot.
To return to the points that we need to take into account in the wider economy, we need to be aware that households face difficult times. That is exactly why, only yesterday, the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change met energy suppliers to discuss how to bring down customers’ energy bills. It is also why this Government have increased the personal allowance, cut fuel duty and will reduce corporation tax year on year, which will assist businesses, including those that have signed up to the “Cut the VAT” campaign.
It is important that the Government continue to explore their options for credit easing, with which the hon. Gentleman will no doubt be familiar. We should try to inject money directly into parts of the economy that need it, especially small businesses, which are the driving force for economic growth.
Doing those things will not only boost demand in the short term and, indeed, change behaviour, but help to tackle long-standing UK problems associated with the supply of credit to small and medium-sized businesses. That is vital. The Chancellor will announce further details on 29 November.
To finish on the broader point, Labour, I am afraid to say, may have been content to spend beyond its means, but such costs are unsupportable in the current economic climate and simply cannot be reasonably entertained. We need sound public finances to make sustainable growth possible. Over the past decade there has been an increasing reliance on an imbalanced economy, which drove ever greater problems throughout. That model has proved unsustainable and what we have needed in the meantime, as set out in the Budget 2010, the spending review and other work, is a credible plan to tackle the unprecedented deficit that the Government inherited—and that the hon. Gentleman, no doubt, is about to jump to his feet to defend.
Bill Esterson
Until 2008 and the financial crisis, the Conservative party in opposition supported the spending levels of the then Government. It was the financial crisis and the bail-out of the banks that caused the deficit to grow to the level it reached. On the balance between quantitative easing and proposals such as the “Cut the VAT” campaign, which has the support of 49 business organisations, many prominent and highly regarded economists think the latter a far more direct way to get money into the economy to stimulate growth and demand, which I know the Government are in favour of. If we disagree on the means, we certainly agree on the need to do it, whether that be via quantitative easing or cuts to VAT on home improvements. We need to take either one action or the other. I hope the Minister will acknowledge that economists have strong views that such VAT cuts are another way of addressing the issue.
Miss Smith
I shall say three things in response. First, on the argument for such a VAT cut, many different sectors make the same argument for their own cuts. It is not clear why this particular cut is the one that should triumph, even if money was available. Secondly, the hon. Gentleman may think that this Government have gone off plan, but his shadow Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls), is already £27 billion off the Darling plan this year alone, and the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) has already stated that anyone without a credible economic policy is simply not at the races. Thirdly, our approach to building a credible economy via a credible plan to tackle the deficit has been endorsed, as the hon. Gentleman will know, by the International Monetary Fund, the OECD, the European Commission, the rating agencies and UK business organisations beyond those that deal in installing bathrooms. The difficult decisions that this Government have had to take have made Britain a safe haven in the sovereign debt storm, and that is exactly what we intend to carry on being.
Of course, there are concerning signs. I acknowledge that the recent employment statistics make very tempting calls such as the hon. Gentleman’s on behalf of the construction industry. Those signs, however, show more than ever why the UK must stick to its course. We need stability and confidence in the economy, and we need to hold down the costs of borrowing for businesses and home owners.
The hon. Gentleman’s plan risks putting Britain back in the firing line. It could lead to rising interest rates and falling international confidence, which would undermine the recovery in his constituency, the country and internationally. In that context of a recovering economy, fiscal consolidation is what is most important, not only to ensure stability but to provide the conditions for the private sector growth that we all seek. It needs to provide the conditions for investment and hiring. Any suggestion of cuts to VAT for the construction or any other industry, or of extensions such as that proposed by the hon. Gentleman, on top of the relief that already exists to tackle his concerns, adds up, I am afraid, to calling for the wrong thing at the wrong time.
Bomber Command (Campaign Medal)
(13 years ago)
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Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Chope. I called for this debate because we are approaching that time of year when we remember and honour those who paid the ultimate sacrifice in defending our freedoms and liberty. I also wish to pay my own personal tribute to the contribution made to that freedom by Bomber Command. I pay tribute in particular to my constituents Stan Franks, Jack McCorkell and Jim Gooding—all veterans of Bomber Command, all stalwarts of the Grays RAF Association club, all now in their 80s, and all teenagers when they risked their lives defending our freedoms. The contribution of Bomber Command was significant, and the bravery of its members was crucial in bringing the second world war to an end. The failure to recognise that contribution with a dedicated campaign medal is a snub, and it is a snub that they feel personally.
Although many years have passed—obviously, I cannot hold the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) responsible for decisions taken many years ago—it is not too late to celebrate and recognise their contribution, just as we remember the fallen every Armistice day. The Minister will be aware that a memorial to Bomber Command is under construction. Will the Government consider whether completion of that memorial offers an opportunity to right this wrong and for the Minister to consider what we can do to recognise the contribution that Bomber Command made and honour those brave pilots who are still with us?
To make the case for this honour, I would like to remind hon. Members of a few facts that illustrate the very real contribution that Bomber Command made to victory in the second world war. For example, in 1940, Bomber Command played a pivotal role in the evacuation of Dunkirk, allowing the escape of 218,000 British troops. Although Fighter Command was at the forefront of the battle of Britain, Bomber Command also played its part by taking the fight to Germany and preventing German bombers from ever arriving here. While the battle of Britain raged and RAF Fighter Command fought off the Luftwaffe, Bomber Command repeatedly attacked the advance of German troops and German shipping. However, its contribution to the battle of Britain still goes uncelebrated because the pilots from Bomber Command are not eligible for the battle of Britain Bar.
In the closing days of the war, Bomber Command’s raids ensured that Germany was unable to strike terror campaigns against mainland Britain and that ultimately victory was secured. It was then that Bomber Command’s contribution seems to have been sidelined, if not ignored. In the spirit of celebrating peace, the then Government chose not to celebrate Bomber Command’s contribution, which was a decision that I believe was wrong.
It has been suggested that to celebrate Bomber Command’s role is to condone the civilian casualties that ensued as part of its raids. However, that is to ignore the fact that we were at war. Awful things happen during war. Many people in this country were killed in the blitz, so to fail to recognise the contribution of these pilots is to diminish their courage and loyalty to a country that they risked their lives to save. The risk to life was very real. On just one night during the battle of Britain—13 August 1940—82 squadron was sent on an operation to occupied Holland. Of the 12 Blenheims sent on that mission, only one returned. That was not unusual. Of the 125,000 men and women in Bomber Command, 55,573 lost their lives. More than 10,000 aircraft were lost. A further 11,000 men were made prisoners of war. Those figures are even more remarkable when we consider that Bomber Command was made up of all volunteers who had an average age of just 22.
It is clear that we owe those people a great deal and I am pleased that work has finally commenced on the memorial, which has been funded by private donations, including a very generous donation by the Bee Gee, Robin Gibb. He is currently undergoing hospital treatment and I am sure we would all like to wish him well. When the memorial opens next year, we should take the opportunity to honour the 3,000 bombers who are still with us as a way of honouring the 55,000 who never came back and right the wrong committed by our previous political leaders. The real point is that the decision to bomb was made at a political level. As early as July 1940, for example, Churchill wrote to the Minister responsible for aircraft production, urging him to increase the production of bombers as it was the only means of defeating German military power. That decision was also supported by Roosevelt. The reality is that air power offered the only military means of striking back.
Some might say that too many years have passed since that decision was taken to reconsider the matter, but I would like to remind hon. Members that there is a precedent for issuing a campaign medal so long after the second world war. In 2005, it was decided to recognise the service of the Arctic convoys. An award was given to eligible veterans that included an emblem that could be worn alongside other medals. We should take advantage of that precedent and show some pride in Bomber Command’s achievement. These people are our heroes. Each time they got into a plane, those young men took their lives into their hands—and they were young men. My constituent, Stan Franks, was just 19 years old. He flew 31 missions and was the youngest flight engineer to complete a tour. As he says,
“I lost many friends. I didn’t want to kill. I just wanted to fly and defend my country—all I want is recognition for what we did”.
We should also remember that getting in those planes was not like getting into today’s high-tech fighter jets. While flying at altitude, frostbite and asphyxiation were very real risks. Arguably, Bomber Command won the war. It took the battle to the enemy and we should honour its bravery. There is real support for doing so outside this place and within it. More than 100 Members signed an early-day motion on this subject last autumn. Let us end the hurt we have perpetrated on these honourable men. They served their country with pride and courage at great personal risk to themselves. It is time that we finally awarded them a campaign medal.
Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) on securing today’s debate. The issue has been raised on a number of occasions in both Houses with the support of many hon. Members, yet Bomber Command veterans and their families are still fighting for the recognition that they most certainly deserve, which they earned in the most desperate and ferocious of situations.
My right hon. Friend the Minister responsible for veterans has confirmed on a previous occasion that the campaign for medal recognition of Bomber Command personnel is currently being considered as part of the Government’s wider review into medals, which is expected to report shortly. Like many others, I am looking forward to the review’s findings, but I warn the Minister of the deepest disappointment—indeed, resentment—that will be felt by veterans, their families and many others if Bomber Command is overlooked for the seventh decade running.
Let us always keep in the forefront of our minds that these young people—some just boys—made extraordinary sacrifices doing their duty. Their acts of bravery and dedication certainly shortened the war and we should be eternally grateful to them. I would like to declare a personal interest in these matters and explain why I feel as strongly as I do. My grandfather on my mother’s side served in Bomber Command. He was born in southern Ireland, so he did not have to serve because Ireland was a neutral country. However, he emigrated at the age of 17 from Tramore in Waterford and enlisted as an air gunner. A few months later, he was a rear gunner over Germany on operations night after night.
After operations over Germany and then the Mediterranean, my grandfather fought against the Japanese, where he was shot down over Malaysia and found several weeks later in the jungle suffering from malaria. Let me help to put that into perspective. My 19-year-old son Dominic is older than my grandfather was when he started his service. As much as I trust Dominic—I hope that he forgives me for saying this—I would not be happy leaving him the keys to my car let alone imagining him flying a bomber above Germany at such a young age.
As my hon. Friend said, aircrew had no say over strategy, target choice or their mission. They just did their duty. A large number of aircrew came from further afield than even my grandfather did and they too should be recognised for their bravery and loyalty. In fact, one in four Bomber Command aircrew were from overseas. They came from Australia, New Zealand, Poland, free France, the United States, Norway, Jamaica, Rhodesia and India. Of the 55,573 Bomber Command pilots and crew who were killed, including 91 members of the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force, 15,661 were from overseas. Some 9,887 of that number were from Canada, which represents nearly 60% of the Canadians who flew with Bomber Command. Those young people from the dominions showed true loyalty to our nation in its time of greatest need. They were volunteers who answered the call out of kinship, a strong sense of duty and shared values. If successive Governments continue to fail in recognising the huge contribution that Bomber Command made in defending our nation, they dishonour not only our own veterans, but those who came from overseas.
The aircrew of Bomber Command faced incredible challenges on a daily basis. Whatever the statistics, the cold reality was that in 1942 less than half of all heavy bomber crews would survive their first tour and only one in five would make it through a second. In 1943, only one in six bomber crews would be expected to survive their first tour, and only one in 40 their second. In the face of their achievements and bravery, how can we let restrictions and protocol, or breaking precedent, deprive Bomber Command personnel of a campaign medal for their service to our nation?
In 2008, 209 hon. Members signed an early-day motion calling for a campaign medal for Bomber Command personnel; surely a demonstration, if one was needed, of the depth of this wrongdoing. The policy of not instituting medals more than five years after the campaign can be overturned. Exceptions to King George VI’s intention not to award any further world war two medals post-1948 can be made again. Yes, the pilots and aircrew were eligible for other medals, such as the France and Germany star, but what about the ground crew? They kept the aircraft flying and made the missions possible. In total, 1,479 ground crew were killed in the line of duty. Should their sacrifices not be recognised?
There are other reasons given, including the reluctance to give awards to specific military units and to those who served the war inside the UK. Neither of those reasons is insurmountable, but again they demonstrate the lack of political will. Successive Governments have failed to address the issue, but where there is the will there is always a way. I urge the Minister to let this Government be the one to right this grave injustice. During the war, the men and women of Bomber Command were unanimously regarded as heroes. As Churchill himself declared in 1940:
“The fighters are our salvation but the bombers alone provide the means of victory”.
Churchill’s bombers did not fly or crew themselves. Let us now acknowledge the contribution of those that did, and made that victory possible.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) on securing this debate on the very brave men and women of Bomber Command, and their appalling sacrifice, which she has described, during the second world war. I will cover this in more detail, but there are two issues here. One is the respect and admiration that we should have for those very brave people who gave up their lives in many instances in service to their country in incredibly difficult situations. The second issue is how we should recognise their bravery and continue the world’s knowledge of what they did, 66 years after the end of the second world war.
If I may recap, more than 8,000 aircraft were lost. Out of 125,000 air crew, 55,573 were killed. Statistically, a Bomber Command crew member had a worse chance of survival than an infantry officer in world war one. Some 19 members of Bomber Command received Victoria crosses. I can assure everybody here that the Government maintain a deep appreciation—a real appreciation and admiration—of the courage and sacrifice of all those who served in Bomber Command during world war two. We owe them a great deal. My own view is that every schoolchild should know what they did, and I fear that they do not. Everybody in this country should understand that one in six UK fatalities in the second world war were in Bomber Command—a staggering number.
Aerial bombardment was not new in 1939. Indeed, the first recorded example of aerial bombardment took place in the summer of 1911 when Italian aircraft, sent to north Africa to fight the Turks, dropped modified grenades on to an enemy camp near Tripoli. Damage was slight and world reaction insignificant, but it was a significant development in air power. World war one firmly established this new role. Between 1914 and 1918, two distinct types of aerial bombardment emerged. The first, practised eventually by all combatants, involved the fairly simple concept of dropping high explosives on to enemy rear areas, hitting lines of supply, command networks, fuel dumps and military concentrations. This became known as tactical bombing or, if it entailed isolating enemy forces from their own support echelons, interdiction bombing. Exactly where close support and ground attack ended and tactical bombing began was, and often still is, a debatable point.
The second form of aerial bombardment was the concept of strategic bombing. The founder of the RAF, Lord Trenchard, had postulated that the bomber was a potential war-winning weapon, as my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock suggested. If raids could be sustained, industrial plant would be destroyed and civilian morale undermined to the extent that the enemy would be unable to continue the war. So persuasive were those arguments by 1939 that it was a widely held fear, particularly in Britain, that city areas were doomed to destruction within days of the outbreak of war.
The RAF went to war organised into four separate command units: Fighter Command, Bomber Command, Coastal Command and Training Command. My hon. Friends the Members for Thurrock and for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti) will need no reminding of the feats of Fighter Command during the desperate days of the battle of Britain, but it was then, at least, primarily a defensive force. Bomber Command’s great asset was that it could take the fight to the enemy—an all too precious occurrence in those early war years. However, by the time he took over as head of Bomber Command in February 1942, Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Harris had become disillusioned with the effects of precision bombing and was turning to area bombing. This technique required the assembly of very large bomber fleets, up to 1,000 or more, and the inundation of whole areas with high explosives and incendiaries. The aim was to use statistical probability rather than selectivity to destroy military targets, and to make a direct assault on German civilian morale. At the time, it was considered a proportionate response to the terrible damage inflicted on London, Coventry and many other British cities during the Blitz and the later V-bomb attacks.
I do not think that there should have been any guilt felt then, or now, because this was a war to the bitter end. I certainly do not believe that anybody who was involved in Bomber Command should believe that they were doing anything other than furthering the British war effort between 1939 and 1945. Debates may still rage about the strategy, but there is no doubt about the bravery and integrity of those who took part. Night after night, these brave volunteers risked giving their lives—indeed, many gave their lives. The danger was enormous: enemy night fighters, anti-aircraft fire, mechanical failures, extreme navigational challenges, and the prospect of imprisonment for those who managed to bale out in time. Sorties could take eight to nine hours and brought with them a mental as well as a physical ordeal, the intensity of which would be unfamiliar to their colleagues in uniform on the ground or at sea.
I recommend that hon. Members visit the RAF museum in Hendon, look at a Lancaster and see how the whole crew had to get out of a hatch in the front, no bigger than one of the chairs in this room, while wearing a parachute. That is, of course, one reason why so many did not get out, which is a terrifying prospect. Bomber Command pilot Mike Lewis described the experience thus:
“We went in under an absolutely cloudless sky. We were literally over the harbour when the next thing people started reporting was that fighters were climbing up. The German pilots...turned in and just sat blasting away at us and blowing us out of the sky until eventually they ran out of gas and had to go home themselves. If there had been more gasoline I think none of us would have reached our home. We were sitting ducks. It was terrifying.”
Let us not forget the absolutely crucial role of the ground crew and the in-flight engineers—more than 100,000 of them. Without them, Bomber Command would not have been able to carry out 364,514 sorties, drop more than a million bombs, and tie up vast amounts of scarce German resources that would otherwise have been used elsewhere in their war effort.
The dedication and sacrifice of those who were part of Bomber Command is not in question; the debate has always been about how best to recognise it. Those who served in Bomber Command during the second world war were eligible for one of the stars instituted for campaign service: for example, the 1939-45 star. In addition, a series of campaign stars were created for participants in particularly hazardous campaigns—this was certainly one—and many Bomber Command personnel qualified for the much-prized Air Crew Europe star or the France and Germany star.
The case for awarding a medal to those who served in Bomber Command was also considered by the relevant Committee at the time, 66 years ago. However, it was decided that this would not be appropriate specifically for service in a particular command. There is no other example that I can think of, of a particular command getting a medal. That decision was made with the benefit of evidence from all interested parties at the time—something the present Committee does not have the benefit of now.
It should be clear that these brave men and women were not overlooked. They were considered at the time. In 1985, Lady Harris awarded an unofficial medal and began a campaign historically supported by the Daily Express. Both my hon. Friends have said that there is a huge body of opinion supporting this; actually, although there is a great deal of sympathy and a huge amount of respect for those who served in Bomber Command, I have not seen the evidence of a huge weight of opinion that says that we should institute a medal now.
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
I wrote to the Minister on 13 August last year on this very point, and included a copy of a letter from Mr Henry Pam, who served in Bomber Command. He made the point:
“The Air Crew medal was not presented to those of us operating after the invasion of France etc. in 1944. Why?”
Many of those gentleman—and ladies perhaps, but mostly gentlemen—who served in Bomber Command are no longer alive. It seems mean-spirited not to consider what is happening to those who remain and to the families. We should grant some recognition by way of a medal.
Mr Robathan
I am just coming to recognition, but I point out to the hon. Lady that, if we were to institute a medal, that medal should go to every person who was killed in the second world war, or their descendants, and indeed to all those who served in the second world war. It would not only be the survivors; everyone would deserve a medal. If people were killed in the first or second world war, their campaign medals were still awarded. That is how such things are done. People who served and were killed certainly deserved their campaign medals, which were given to their descendants. That is right and proper and still happens today.
Tessa Munt
Were those particular gentlemen not extraordinary in their courage and bravery? As the Minister wrote in his letter to me, Mr Pam had received the 1939 to 1945 star, the France and Germany star, the defence medal and the war medal for 1939 to 1945. The peculiar situation in which Bomber Command found itself should surely be a prerequisite for handing out some sort of medal in recognition.
Mr Robathan
The hon. Lady is of course entitled to her opinion. Those people were incredibly brave and I in no way wish to detract from my admiration for them. My hon. Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke referred to his son, and yet the even younger men of Bomber Command did things one can hardly believe—but then, so did those who served in Fighter Command, and they did not get a medal, and nor did those brave men and women in the Special Operations Executive who parachuted into occupied France, the majority of whom were executed when they got there. My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock is saying that the people of Bomber Command were brave, and I believe that we recognise their bravery—we should do so, and we pay tribute to it—and that is what I am coming on to.
Since I became a Minister, I have been involved with the Bomber Command memorial. The Bomber Command Association is establishing a national memorial and has even cut the turf—I went to the turf-cutting ceremony in the summer. In October 2008, the Prime Minister, while in opposition, said:
“I have always believed that the 55,000 brave men of Bomber Command who lost their lives in the service of their country deserve the fullest recognition of their courage and sacrifice.”
I believe the same.
The Ministry of Defence is pleased to chair the Bomber Command memorial funding campaign, which is moving ahead with pace, and that was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock. A construction contract has been awarded and the Bomber Command memorial will be located in Green park, opposite the RAF club on Piccadilly. We are aiming at a completion date in 2012. I am actively supporting the memorial and was meant to be having a meeting in a little over an hour with Malcolm White of the Bomber Command Association. Unfortunately, we had to cancel that meeting, but I shall be meeting him shortly to discuss how to facilitate the memorial, as well as various issues that have been in the newspapers. That will be the best and most fitting memorial, which will last long after we have all gone, reminding people of the sacrifice of our forefathers.
On the medal review, in the coalition’s programme for government it set out its intention to review the rules governing the award of medals, as a part of the commitment to rebuild the military covenant. A draft review was produced to enable us to consider the various views, and we sent the draft report to the campaign groups, including the Bomber Command Association, along with an invitation to submit comments. That review has now been carried out and the closing date for responses from the campaign groups has now passed. The formal responses we received have been carefully considered, but it is worth noting that the Bomber Command Association offered no comments on the medals review. The review will be published in the not-too-distant future.
There is no doubting the bravery and sacrifice of all those involved in the thousands of sorties made by Bomber Command over occupied Europe during the second world war. They made a real difference to the outcome of the war. It is equally clear that that difference was a crucial one, recognised by the other side. Hitler’s armaments Minister, Albert Speer, who more than anyone else in Europe knew about the true effect of the bombing campaign and the ability of the Germans to maintain the war, summed it up thus:
“It made every square metre of Germany a front. For us, it was the greatest lost battle of the war.”
In a sense, there could be no more convincing testimonial.
We support the erection of a fitting memorial to those whose courage made such a critical contribution to the successful prosecution of the air campaign in the second world war. My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock is right when she says that it is not too late to honour the brave men and women who took part in Bomber Command. We are honouring them next year with the erection of the memorial, which I applaud.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Ministerial Statements
Air Passenger Duty (Northern Ireland)
(13 years ago)
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The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe Smith)
From 1 November 2011, the rate of APD for direct long-haul passengers departing from airports in Northern Ireland will be cut to the short-haul rate, which is currently £12 in economy and £24 in business and first class.
This measure is a response to the unique challenge facing Northern Ireland and is designed to ensure local airports remain competitive, demonstrating the Government’s commitment to stimulating and rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy.
In parallel the Government are also launching a process for the devolution of aspects of APD to the Northern Ireland Assembly to provide a lasting solution to the unique circumstances Northern Ireland faces.
Devolution of APD to Northern Ireland will require primary legislation. The precise scope of devolution will be agreed in close consultation with the Northern Ireland Executive.
UK's Counter-Terrorist Asset-Freezing Regime
(13 years ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban)
Under the Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Act 2010 (the Act), the Treasury is required to report quarterly to Parliament on the operation of the UK’s asset-freezing regime mandated by UN Security Council Resolution 1373.
This is the third report under the Act and it covers the period from 1 July 2011 to 30 September 20111.
This report also covers the UK implementation of the UN al-Qaeda asset-freezing regime.
As of 30 September 2011, a total of just over £200,0002 of funds were held frozen in the UK. This covers funds frozen under the UK’s domestic terrorist asset-freezing regime, mandated by UN Security Council Resolution 1373, and also funds frozen under the UN al-Qaeda asset-freezing regime, mandated by UN Security Council Resolution 1989.
(1) UK’s domestic terrorist asset freezing regime under the Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Act 2010
As of 30 September 2011, a total of 84 accounts containing just over £100,000 were frozen in the UK under the domestic terrorist asset-freezing regime. No new accounts were frozen during the quarter.
Operation of the Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Act 2010
Asset-freezing designations and reviews
In the period from 1 July 2011 to 30 September 2011, the Treasury made no new designations under the Act. No reviews of existing designations were completed during the quarter.
Licensing
A total of 10 licences were issued this quarter under the Act in relation to six persons subject to an asset-freeze.
In addition to issuing licences relating to a specific person, the Treasury may also issue general licences, which apply to all persons designated under a particular regime or regimes.
No general licences were issued this quarter under the Act.
Legal Challenges
Two legal challenges against designations made under both the Terrorism (United Nations Measures) Order 2009 and the Act were ongoing in the quarter covered by this report.
(2) UN Al-Qaeda Asset-Freezing Regime
The UN al-Qaeda asset-freezing regime, established under UNSCR 1267, is implemented in the UK by Council Regulation (EC) No 881/2002. Following the split of the UNSCR 1267 al-Qaeda and Taliban regime into two separate regimes in June, this quarterly report will cover just the UN al-Qaeda regime mandated by UNSCR 1989.
As of 30 September 2011, a total of 41 accounts containing just over £100,0003 were frozen in the UK under the al-Qaeda asset-freezing regime. The unfreezing of 43 accounts since the previous quarter was a result of a number of delistings by the UN (see the listings section below).
Listings
During this quarter, the EU added six people and two entities to the list in annex I to Council Regulation (EC) No 881/2002.
Six people and three entities were delisted during the quarter. Of these, five individuals and three entities had UK connections.
Licences
One individual licence was issued in this quarter in relation to a person subject to an asset freeze under the al-Qaeda asset-freezing regime.
Seventeen licences were revoked in respect of the five individuals who were delisted.
(3) Proceedings
In the quarter to 30 September 2011, no proceedings were initiated in respect of breaches of the prohibitions of the Act or the Al-Qaida and Taliban (Asset-Freezing) Regulations 2010.
1The detail that can be provided to the House on a quarterly basis is subject to the need to avoid the identification, directly or indirectly, of personal or operationally sensitive information.
2This figure reflects the most up-to-date account balances available and includes approximately $64,000 of suspected terrorist funds frozen in the UK. This has been converted using exchange rates as of 05/10/11.
3Includes approximately $64,000 of suspected terrorist funds in the UK.
Off-Grid Energy Market
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry)
In my statement of 21 January, I informed the House that I wrote to ask the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) to bring forward its off-grid energy market study. I subsequently advised the House that the OFT had agreed to this. I can now report that the OFT has today published its findings from the market study into the off-grid energy market.
The market study focuses on the three main off-grid energy sources: heating oil, liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) and micro-generation. The study examined the available evidence to find few competition concerns in the heating oil market with 97% of consumers having access to four or more independent suppliers. Nevertheless, OFT will continue to look at any evidence of specific market abuse and will take action as necessary.
The study did find that action is needed to protect heating oil consumers in some areas. In September the OFT acted against some heating oil price comparison websites as to their independence—consumers need to be confident that price comparisons are what they seem. The OFT also has particular concerns where heating oil suppliers charge a different price on delivery from that quoted when the order was taken. A successful prosecution by trading standards in August for a supplier misquoting prices has affirmed the law. The OFT is actively examining a number of practices and is engaging with industry to ensure consumer law compliance and will take swift enforcement action as necessary.
Different issues arise in the LPG market where the study has commented on the generally positive initial impact of the Competition Commission Orders from 2009 to make it easier for consumers to switch supplier and that the OFT will continue to monitor this area. The study also comments upon consumer issues in the micro-generation market. Here the Government are supporting the microgeneration certification scheme (MCS), an industry-led certification scheme with an OFT-level consumer code of practice. Only MCS certified installers and products are eligible for the renewable heat premium payment grant scheme.
The study recognises the hugely challenging conditions in December 2010 with 20% of annual heating oil demand being delivered in three working weeks of that month when snow and ice disrupted the road network. Ahead of next winter, my Department has been working with industry and consumer bodies, in a national campaign launched in mid-September, to encourage heating oil customers to order early and ensure they are well prepared for winter. We have also reminded the downstream oil industry to ensure that they have sufficient salt to maintain access at their terminals and depots.
Work by the Department for Transport to improve winter resilience has ensured that the country will enter this winter season well prepared—this includes having a national strategic salt reserve; setting up a salt stock portal to monitor how much stock local highway authorities hold; as well as making sure councils make best use of their salt supplies. While we have to acknowledge there may be some transport disruption in the event of severe winter weather, this work ensures that the country’s transport systems are better equipped to cope.
I welcome the OFT’s action to address the concerns of consumers and its continued engagement in these markets that complement our continuing wider work to improve resilience ahead of next winter.
Tree Health and Plant Biosecurity Action Plan
(13 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman)
I am today publishing an action plan for tree health and plant biosecurity.
Biosecurity threats to Britain’s trees and forests are on the increase. To improve the levels of preparedness, we have developed an action plan which sets out a coherent, joined up approach to plant health strategy. This work sets out an agenda for actions to be taken now and in the future:
to minimise the risk of new threats from entering the UK;
to enable us to understand more about the threats we face;
to work with society to make it more aware of threats and pathways;
to identify positive steps which professionals and other stakeholders can take to improve the resilience of trees, woodlands, and forests; and
to ensure an effective evidence base is developed and maintained to inform decisions.
The recommendations of this action plan will be used to steer future evidence and research priorities and activities.
Copies of the “Tree Health and Plant Biosecurity Action Plan” are available in the House Library and on DEFRA, FERA and the Forestry Commission’s websites.
British Consulate-General (Calgary, Canada)
(13 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
I wish to update the House on recent changes to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s overseas network. As I said in the House on 11 May 2011, there will be no strategic shrinkage of Britain’s diplomatic influence overseas. I made it clear in a speech in London on 8 September that I intend to strengthen the long term capability and international effectiveness of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and to improve our country’s capacity to pursue effective foreign policy for years and even decades to come.
So I am pleased to confirm to Parliament the opening in 2012 of a British consulate-general in Calgary, as announced by the Prime Minister during his visit to Canada on 22 September. The new consulate-general will maintain our existing UK trade and investment operation in Calgary, while adding significant new capability for pursuing our wider political and environmental interests within this dynamic province. This measure underscores my determination to extend the UK’s global reach and strengthen our influence in the world. It also supports my commitment to deepen and refresh our relationship with Canada, an important ally and long-standing friend of the UK. I intend to appoint a fully accredited, resident British consul-general to take up position from summer 2012.
The province of Alberta is Canada’s third largest internal economy, and has led Canadian growth for 20 years. This growth is fuelling commercial opportunities across a diverse range of sectors, including telecoms, agrifood, biotech, chemicals, electronics, energy and corporate services. British companies are heavily involved in the automotive sector, financial services, creative media, chemicals, advanced engineering, IT, and healthcare, as well as in energy and power. Some 50 Albertan companies have UK investments. Opening a consulate-general will add value to our existing trade and investment operations in support of British commercial interests.
The Foreign and Commonwealth Office will meet the cost of appointing and maintaining a resident British consul-general in Calgary through the reallocation of existing resources and without any detrimental impact on front-line activities.
Arrangements for UK visas and consular services in the region are unaltered. Our consulate-general in Vancouver will continue to provide a consular service in the region, including for Alberta.
The strength of our embassy network is a signal to the world of our engagement and commitment to international peace and security. Through strengthening and in some places by expanding Britain’s diplomatic network beyond Europe, we will ensure that the UK has the necessary reach and capacity to respond quickly and effectively when British companies need our assistance or British nationals are in danger. The extension and strengthening of our global diplomatic network, with staff who have the necessary abilities and diplomatic skills, are key objectives of this Government and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office have made funding these goals a priority.
NHS Blood and Transplant Commercial Review
(13 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anne Milton)
The Department’s commercial review of NHS blood and transplant (NHSBT) has now concluded.
The review was an outcome of the Department of Health’s review of arm’s length bodies (ALBs), which concluded that there were strong arguments for retaining the majority of NHSBT’s functions within a single national system. However, it also concluded that there could be opportunities for more cost-effective operations and commercial arrangement within the divisions of NHSBT.
The review examined NHSBT’s non-donor facing activities, including, estates, testing, processing and logistics, with the aim of helping NHSBT further improve the efficiency of its operations.
The review has made a number of recommendations to support the continued improvements in the efficiency and effectiveness of the organisation, which includes working with NHS and other organisations to make more efficient use of voluntarily donated blood.
There are nine recommendations from the review:
that more work, with strategic leadership from the Department of Health and the Welsh Government, should be done both at national and trust level to support trusts, in achieving and maintaining best practice, to reduce the inappropriate use of red cells, platelets and fresh frozen plasma; this would in turn reduce demand and direct costs on NHSBT;
that NHSBT should work with internal and external stakeholders, and publicise its operational and technical data requirements at the trust interface, so that the development of independent stock and operational systems at trusts remain compatible with NHSBT systems;
that NHSBT should continue to develop its pilot studies on integrated transfusion services and should publish the findings and results;
that as NHSBT pilots and launches services with particular trusts, it should maintain a clear segregation (in accounting and reporting) between its developing transfusion services and its core blood supply service;
that NHSBT should monitor alternative provider capability, particularly if there are “make or buy” decisions. Before investing in development projects, NHSBT should ensure it checks whether products or services are already available from existing providers;
that in its current investigation of the requirements for the NHS organ donor register, NHSBT should ensure it has access to all necessary skills and resources to ensure the register is successfully developed and is fit for purpose;
the Department of Health should pursue opportunities for efficiencies within the UK blood services with the other UK Health Departments;
that NHSBT should ensure complete transparency in its financial reporting between its different services and its separate funding sources. The Department of Health should review whether any formal changes to its financial instructions to NHSBT are required to facilitate this; and
that the Department of Health reviews and oversees the mechanism for setting the blood price. The new process to be agreed with NHSBT and the other key stakeholders as a method that continues to command the confidence of NHSBT’s customers, takes account of blood policy and safety requirements, drives improvements in operational and financial efficiency and is transparent.
A copy of “NHS Blood and Transplant Commercial Review” has been placed in the Library. Copies are available to hon. Members from the Vote Office and to noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office.
Extradition Review
(13 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
I am today announcing the publication of an independent review of the UK’s extradition arrangements, a copy of which has been placed in the House Library. The review was announced to Parliament on 8 September 2010.
The coalition’s Government’s “Programme for Government” document, published on 20 May 2010, stated that:
“We will review the operation of the Extradition Act—and the US/UK extradition treaty—to make sure it is even-handed”.
There are a number of areas of the UK’s extradition arrangements which have attracted significant controversy in recent years. The Government understand that these are longstanding concerns and I accordingly asked the independent panel to consider the following issues:
the breadth of Secretary of State discretion in an extradition case;
the operation of the European arrest warrant, including the way in which those of its safeguards which are optional have been transposed into UK law;
whether the forum bar to extradition should be commenced;
whether the US-UK extradition treaty is unbalanced;
whether requesting states should be required to provide prima facie evidence.
The review panel has reached the following conclusions:
Improvements to the EAW can be made to ensure it functions more effectively through both legislative amendments and enhanced dialogue and co-operation at EU-level;
The forum bars to extradition should not be introduced; however, guidance for prosecutors on shared jurisdiction should be agreed and published;
The UK’s extradition arrangements with the US are not unbalanced. There is no practical difference between the information submitted by the UK and the US;
Requesting states should not be required to provide prima facie evidence when making a request to the UK; however, the Government should periodically review the designation of extradition partners;
The breadth of the Home Secretary’s involvement in extradition should not be extended. Instead the panel recommends that cases in which a supervening event occurs after the end of the extradition process should be considered by the High Court rather than by the Secretary of State.
The Government will carefully examine the review panel’s report and will announce what action is to be taken in due course.
Lasting Power of Attorney Donees
(13 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Jonathan Djanogly)
Under section 10(2) of the Mental Capacity Act 2005 (the Act), an individual who is bankrupt may not be appointed as donee of a lasting power of attorney (LPA) in relation to P’s property and affairs.
The bankruptcy of a donee is also one of the prescribed grounds for an objection to be made to the Public Guardian against the registration of a lasting power of attorney, where the power relates to P’s property and affairs.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland made the following statement in Committee Stage during the Act’s passage through Parliament:
“We have therefore decided that the Office of the Public Guardian will check to see if prospective financial attorneys are bankrupt when an LPA is to be registered. That information will be available to the Office of the Public Guardian throughout and should make it unnecessary for the donee to agree a statement to that effect or for it to be included on the notification. If the donee is bankrupt, then the LPA is invalid. That will achieve the noble Earl's objective” [Official Report, House of Lords, 27 January 2005; Vol. 668, c. 1417-1418.]
In the light of this statement, and although there is no statutory obligation to carry out these extra insolvency checks, this has been the practice of the Office of the Public Guardian since the implementation of the Act in 2007.
The Public Guardian has recently made an assessment of the effectiveness and value of this checking process. From 1 April 2010 to 31 March 2011, over 152,000 LPAs were registered and subject to a search on the ISBR. Of all these checks however, only one attorney was found to have been bankrupt at the point of registration. In addition, these checks can only ever identify bankruptcy at the point of registration—not at any other point in the ongoing life of the LPA as a legal document.
Given the nugatory work and the additional bureaucracy, this practice will cease with immediate effect. Objections to registration of an LPA on the grounds of a donee’s bankruptcy may still be made and in such circumstances the Public Guardian will not register the instrument in line with the Act’s requirements.
Grand Committee
Arrangement of Business
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Viscount Ullswater)
My Lords, if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are rung and resume after 10 minutes. I remind noble Lords of the new procedure during Grand Committee on this Bill for Divisions in the Chamber. Members who have registered with the Clerk of the Parliaments may vote in their places in the Grand Committee, provided that they are present in the Grand Committee when the Question is put in the Chamber after three minutes. Members who have not registered or who are not here at the three-minute mark will not be able to vote in their places. I also ask Members to make sure that they speak up but do not touch the microphones.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I wonder whether I could raise another question on procedure in the Committee arising from something the Deputy Chairman just said. I have had representations on behalf of the large number of people who are either deaf or have hearing impairments, who are finding it difficult—I immediately accept the noble Viscount’s admonition for not having switched my phone to silent—to follow the procedures and this Committee. They have asked me to raise two issues. Notwithstanding the normal arrangement for addressing the Chair, they have said that it would be easier to lip-read if people addressing the Committee were to talk directly to the camera. Could Members think about that? Secondly, they are finding that the level of speaking by people, particularly when they are speaking down to notes, it is difficult for them to hear. Could Members speak up, and could we ask the technicians to ensure that the level is as high as possible?
The Deputy Chairman
My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord's comments have been taken into consideration by the technicians and that everything will be done in order so that everyone can partake in the best possible manner.
Welfare Reform Bill
(13 years ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord McKenzie of Luton
“( ) Such an amount shall remain in payment in the event of the claimant lodging an appeal regarding any aspect of universal credit.”
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I shall endeavour to speak up, George. I am not sure whether it is this camera that you want me to speak to.
This is by way of a probing amendment. It was prompted by an article in the Times of 14 October. The article suggested that people were to be denied their benefits if they appealed against the determination. That seemed to be in the context of the reassessment of incapacity benefit claimants, particularly those who were denied ESA— the work-related activity group— who could therefore qualify for jobseeker’s allowance. The article stated:
“Hundreds of thousands of welfare claimants face losing their benefits for months if they challenge a ruling that they are fit to work. Ministers are looking at removing payments during the appeals process in an attempt to slash the number of challenges that are threatening to derail the Government’s benefits reforms. The unprecedented move is being considered as one way to unclog the courts which are set to be inundated with appeals as the Government attempts to reduce the annual £7 billion incapacity benefit bill. A reassessment of all 1.6 million incapacity benefit claimants began in April, with ministers promising to move them on to a new system with narrower eligibility criteria for the sick and stricter requirements to find work. However, concerns over both the reliability of the test to find out whether people are ready for work and the scale of the project has prompted fears of a mountain of appeals. Judges have said privately that they could be facing 500,000 cases a year, some taking more than nine months to resolve”.
In view of the concerns that an article like that can generate, we consider it appropriate to give the Minister an early opportunity to set the record straight, and hopefully deny that that is the Government’s intent. To be clear, do the Government have any plans or otherwise contemplate, by amendment to this Bill or otherwise through regulation, the prospect of denying individuals their benefit should they appeal against a determination that denies them incapacity benefits or employment and support allowance?
At present, where there is an appeal against a decision not to include somebody in the work-related activity group, that causes benefit to be paid at the assessment period rate only, which is the JSA rate. Is this the type of arrangement which the Government are seeking to replicate, or are they proposing to go further and to deny benefit altogether? This raises wider issues which we shall come on to in subsequent clauses, but what conditionality would apply during the period when the appeal is outstanding? I hope that the Minister can set the record straight and clear on this. If he proposes to confirm that the article has some validity, we have some additional questions which we would pose to him. I will give him the opportunity to set the record straight and deny that this article identifies something which the Government propose to take forward. I beg to move.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)
My Lords, the amendment is slightly different from the question posed, and I shall deal with the question posed. The changes to the current appeal system are being taken forward in this Bill, as expressed in Clauses 99 and 100, so we will have an opportunity to discuss those in that consideration. We are, in those clauses, looking to introduce a period of reconsideration, or a reconsideration process, prior to a full appeal. We can have further discussion at that point, but regardless of what an article in a newspaper might say, clearly the practical difference, if one was to be extended in the way described, is purely a difference of conditionality, because as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, pointed out, the actual payment rate of the assessment phase of ESA is the same as JSA. That article has put out a lot of misinformation.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister if he is saying that what is being contemplated in effect replicates what currently exists. When an appeal is outstanding, the assessment period rate, which I think is the JSA rate, applies. If that is what is going to be replicated in the new world, I understand that and can see that the article was misleading on that basis. Broader questions are raised, however, given that there is going to be a universal credit, components of which would in due course be held back during an appeal. If we are talking just about the work-related activity equivalent components, I can understand parity with the existing situation, but obviously other components will go into that, including housing issues. However, I am happy to leave that debate for when we reach Clauses 99 and 100, supposing that we do reach them at some stage in our deliberations. I think the Minister has dealt fairly with the principal concern that the article generated, and I beg leave to withdraw.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, Amendment 34A, as noble Lords will understand, is a paving amendment for the subsequent, substantive amendment, Amendment 48, so that we can have a broader discussion on housing stock before we get into talking about individual client groups. That seemed to be a sensible way of proceeding. I declare an interest as a former chair of a local authority housing committee and a current chair of the Broadland Housing Association.
For me, underoccupancy is the most important issue in the housing section of the Bill. Essentially, the Government are saying that any tenant who is not a pensioner and is underoccupying will have their benefit cut to the size of the property that they should be occupying. The English house condition survey, and the DCLG in the past, regards someone as underoccupying if they have more than one spare bedroom. Indeed, the latest Written Answer from Grant Shapps states:
“It is estimated that 423,000 households were under-occupying”,
which obviously includes pensioners.
“This estimate is a three-year average … Under-occupying households are those with at least two bedrooms more than they need according to the Bedroom Standard”.—[Official Report, Commons, 11/10/2011; col. 337W.]
The DWP, for benefit purposes, will not allow two bedrooms more or one bedroom more but requires a precise fit. This is a much tighter and even claustrophobic ruling. A later amendment, Amendment 44, which I favour, would align the DWP to the DCLG standard. As almost 80 per cent of tenants who are affected by the DWP’s proposals have only one spare bedroom, that would address the issue for most people, although of course with implications for projected savings.
This amendment, like Amendment 43, tackles the issue in a different way. It requires the social landlord, not the tenant, to take responsibility. If the landlord does not have the stock to offer, the tenant should enjoy his current home with full HB. If the landlord can offer appropriately sized stock by DWP standards, the tenant takes the HB hit if they choose not to move.
Why do I think the DWP standards of underoccupancy are too tight? Under DWP plans, a couple with two teenage daughters in a three-bedroom house will be underoccupying, and will receive benefit only for a two-bedroom flat or home. Let us remember that we are dealing with social housing that is now built well below Parker Morris space standards. Two teenage girls might be expected to share a second bedroom that is 10 feet by 8 feet. Let us visualise two single beds put against the 8-foot wall, with 2 feet between them. Fifteen year-olds are not going to sleep in bunk beds as though they are five years-old. A 3-foot wardrobe and a 3-foot wide chest of drawers are in the 3-foot by 6-foot space at the bottom of the beds. There may be a gap of 1 foot, and that is it, if you are to open the bedroom door. There is no space for a desk, a table, or a chair. Where exactly do they do their homework? Not in the galley kitchen, because they will not have one, and not in the only living room, where the parents want to eat, talk, watch TV. They cannot do their homework anywhere, so maybe they will not. City children can stay on at school of an evening or use the public library for their homework in that situation. Rural children, dependent on the school bus, can do neither. And then we are surprised at the GCSE results. As a result they cannot find a job, and I fear that there could be two generations of worklessness.
This example assumes that those four family members have moved to the two-bedroom flat as required under the new proposed changes in housing benefit. Actually, probably they will not. Most two-bedroom homes are actually three-person, not four, with a small second bedroom, and although some 12 per cent of my housing association’s three-bedroom houses are four-person houses with a double bedroom and two singles, most are five, so we have three-person accommodation, and five-person accommodation. Imposing HB caps by bedroom numbers rather than by total space size of bedrooms—that is, trying to shoehorn a four-person family into a two-bedroom, but three-person, property—will certainly take us into the realm of forced overcrowding and judicial review. Such a family will be deemed by the DWP to be underoccupying a three-bedroom five-person property, and deemed by housing law to be overcrowded in the only property they can move to, which is a two-bedroom three-person home. What would the Minister have us do?
Will the Minister say whether, if that family were in a three-bedroom but four-person house, they will receive full HB as three bedrooms or persons, or whether they would be expected to move to a two-bedroom flat even if they were three persons? If we put a family of three into a two-bedroom four-person house, would that be classified as underoccupied? I am not playing word games because, depending upon the outcome of this question, families will or will not lose more than £10 a week of their housing benefit. These are the allocation decisions that my housing association and local authority are making day in and day out.
A fortnight ago I was visiting an attractive small development of some 20 homes that we have just built. Thirteen of them were two-bedroom houses, four of them were three-bedroom and there were three bungalows. However, of those 13 two-bedroom houses, 12 were three-person. Only one was four-person. We do not have and we are not building the four-person stock that the Minister has now told us that tenants in a family of four should occupy to get their full HB. They are mostly either three-person or five-person, with the assumption that the couple get the first type and the couple with children get the other. Nationally, our situation is replicated. There is a huge shortfall of one-bedroom and two-bedroom accommodation. Relatively, there is a surplus of three-bedroom accommodation. The national federation calculated that last year 180,000 families were waiting for two-bedroom homes, and just 60,000 became available. Who do those families go to?
I can tell noble Lords about our allocation structure. First, the homes go to families in urgent housing need. Next we have pensioners—to whom the changes do not apply—in three-bedroom homes queuing up to move to more convenient and easier-to-heat two-bedroom homes. Yet we cannot always help them because we do not have the stock, and they are the people who are most likely to underoccupy. Then we have families who need to transfer from one two-bedroom property to another in order to help look after frail elderly people in a nearby village. So we have queues of people wanting two-bedroom accommodation who are willing and able to move, and we cannot meet that demand.
However, under the Bill, if there is no two-bedroom accommodation for my four-person family to move to—as there is not—they are fined with cuts of £15 a week or more. It is madness as well as a misery. We allow—indeed, we make—the pensioners who would like to downsize stay put, while requiring the family who wants to stay put to move. This possibly causes a dislocation of schools for their children and of family support. Yet the HB bill would be identical if we swapped those categories around.
To its credit, the impact analysis recognises this and agrees that there are insufficient two-bedroom properties to meet these forced moves. On page 2, it is stated:
“If all existing social sector tenants wished to move to accommodation of an appropriate size, there would be a mismatch between available accommodation and the needs of tenants”.
Quite so. Some 670,000 tenants would be affected—2,000 of them disabled—or 32 per cent of all HB claimants. Some 108,000 tenants live in an adapted property, with the average cost of adaption being £6,500; yet 78 per cent of them are underoccupying by only one bedroom, which the DCLG does not consider as underoccupying but which the DWP is proposing to consider for benefit purposes. That could be an extra small bedroom for each teenage daughter to do their homework in, for a husband or wife who is in poor health and has disturbed sleep, for the occasional overnight carer of a disabled person, or for a grandchild.
Let us return to my family of four who are obliged to move or face HB cuts. As there is a shortage of smaller accommodation, what then? How can the tenant move if there is nowhere to move to? “Oh”, states the impact analysis blithely on page 8, at paragraph 24:
“In these circumstances individuals may have to look further afield for appropriately sized accommodation or move to the private sector, otherwise they shall need to meet the shortfall through other means such as employment, using savings or by taking in a lodger”.
Employment? Do noble Lords really think that they have not so far looked for work and that a £15 fine on their HB bill will find them a job? Using savings? The average individual savings of £300 would cover the shortfall for barely five months. Taking in a lodger? If you have small children? We need to get real. Instead, if they cannot afford the HB cut, they may move, apparently, to the private rented sector, where their HB bill will of course increase because it is higher. That, of course, is if they can find a landlord to take them, given their past history of possible rent arrears, and if they can find the deposit—a month’s rent in advance—together with moving costs, curtains and carpets, which may come to £1,500 out of savings of £300. In rural Norfolk, all this takes place close to the school that the children go to. It is simply not possible. If the family moves after falling into arrears, which private landlord will accept them anyway?
The impact analysis is revealing—it sort of knows all this. It expects savings of £700 million, but this is based on the presumption that families do not move but stay put, are fined and have their HB cut. I quote page 2:
“If a significant number of tenants wished to move, this would reduce direct savings and place extra demands on social landlords”.
A couple with a child in Crawley, quoted by Shelter and Crisis, moving from three-bed social housing to a two-bed private rented flat would see their HB bill rise by £66 a week. The savings—and this is key—are based not on people moving to smaller accommodation but on their being fined for not moving because the stock is not there and for staying put. In other words, the Government are basing their savings not on people doing what the Government say they should do but on their not doing it. The Government need their public policy, for people to move home, to fail if they are to ensure that their private policy—to cut HB and make the savings off the fines for people not moving as normally required—succeeds.
I was pretty horrified when I read that. You might think that issues around underoccupation were at the very least being propelled by a huge increase in overcrowding, so that, however reluctantly, underoccupying families should move to make way for those in greater need. It is not so. On average, 5 to 6 per cent of all households in all rented sectors are overcrowded; 40 to 50 per cent are fit; 40 to 50 per cent are underoccupied, many of them containing pensioners. So the needs of the overcrowded could be met if we were able to meet the requests of pensioners and others to downsize. No force majeure is required, except that we do not have the stock to do it.
This is not about the need of other families for the house that you are underoccupying; it is about artificially capping the HB bill knowing that there is insufficient stock for tenants to move into and then pocketing the fines because they have no alternative course of action. That is not a proper way to behave. They stay put because they cannot move and arrears mount because they have run out of savings. What do the Government suggest local authorities and housing associations then do? Should they evict them? As I said, how many private landlords will take on a tenant with rent arrears? No judicial review, and there will be plenty of those, would regard them as intentionally homeless—in which circumstances the local authority would give them priority housing and back they would come again into social housing, where everybody can find a home, or go into B&B at five times the cost. But if they are not evicted, arrears mount rapidly and a housing association’s balance sheet goes into the red. It may already have tripled the amount set aside for rent arrears due to direct payments to tenants. It could now expect it to double again if it does not evict.
We have four solutions. First, we can follow Amendment 44, aligning the DWP’s definition of overcrowding with that of the DCLG and largely define the problem away. This is the solution that I prefer, but I accept that it has cost implications. Secondly, we can build and better balance the stock, but that will take years, as our building programme is being halved by DCLG. We can, thirdly, ask local authorities to use their discretionary housing payments to top up, except that my local authority ran out of money halfway through the financial year—last November, in fact—and even then had helped only a few families. The £60 million, although welcome, will go nowhere near to meeting or softening cuts of £2 billion-plus. The final option is the path of these amendments. We place the responsibility on the landlord and not the tenant. They do not say no change; they are genuinely a compromise. If the social landlord can make an offer of appropriate accommodation, the tenant will be expected to take it or take on the HB shortfall and government make their savings. But if the landlord cannot do so because the homes are simply not there, as in my housing association, then HB continues exactly as was.
We sanction people in JSA if they do not seek work, because they can and should. We use the threat of sanction to change their behaviour. What we do not do is sanction them if, after a proper job search, they cannot find a job, because no change in their behaviour can change the economy and job vacancy rates. We sanction them according to what we can reasonably expect them to do and how they change their behaviour. This is about job searching, not a lack of job success.
Similarly, it may be reasonable to sanction by HB cuts someone who is grossly underoccupying a house that a much larger family desperately needs and who could change their behaviour by downsizing. We could debate that, but to sanction families for not moving when they cannot change their behaviour and cannot move because of the housing stock is not a sanction but a punishment of people who not only have committed no offence but who can do nothing to avoid the sanction by changing their behaviour. That is wrong. We should not fine some of the poorest people in the country who have been set up to fail. It is not their fault, and it is not decent, and I really hope that the Minister, who I am sure will share these worries, can indicate that he accepts the principle of the compromise of this or some subsequent amendment. We would all be happy to discuss further with him how this might be done. I beg to move.
Lord McAvoy
My Lords, I want to put a couple of points to the Minister on a particular aspect of the availability of suitable accommodation. I will describe the city of Glasgow because it is the biggest city I know. I stay adjacent to it and I know quite a bit about the different types of housing there. Some is council accommodation. My noble friend Lady Hollis of Heigham has indicated that size is important and that people can be in a small room that is classed as a room. Glasgow has what are called three-stairs-up tenements, which are usually in red or grey sandstone tenement blocks. The rooms are smaller in the likes of Dennistoun, Townhead and some older parts of the city centre, but massive in the likes of Shawlands, King’s Park and Langside. If someone was “forced” to move from a small two-bedroom flat in Dennistoun to King’s Park or Shawlands, they would be dancing up the stairs, because it would be a vast improvement on the living space that they had had. They would soon get a sofa bed in the living room.
I am leading up to the fact that this is a very difficult situation and I really do not know how this can be done. Has any assessment been made to address the main thrust of my noble friend’s amendment, which deals with the fact that the size of rooms is just as important as the number of rooms? As I say, it would baffle me, but there are highly paid people working for the Government who should at least be able to test this. My question is therefore: has some consideration been given to assessing the size of rooms compared with the number of rooms in individual cases?
Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, I support the amendment, which was so comprehensively moved by my noble friend Lady Hollis. One of the concerns of the organisations that have written about the Government’s proposals relates to the plan to reduce housing benefit for working-age tenants who are allegedly underoccupying social homes. From 2013, some 670,000 social housing tenants receiving housing benefit could lose an average of £676 a year, because under the new rules their homes could be deemed too large for their needs. The cuts could force them to choose between moving away, and thus leaving any local support networks or supportive neighbours, or going into debt. This could be particularly difficult for disabled claimants, many of whom could have had their homes adapted to deal with their disability. A spare bedroom may be necessary should family members visit or if the aid of a carer is required. There may well be no similar accommodation available in the locality. Some of the amendments before the Committee attempt to deal with these problems.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester
At this point I should like to make a point on the second new subsection proposed by Amendment 48, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis. Many disabled people will have had their homes adapted with help from the mandatory disabled facilities grant, which local authorities have to pay to eligible people. This may be as much as £30,000, depending on their circumstances, and is means-tested. Do the Government really expect families or couples who include a disabled person, or even a single disabled person, to move from an adapted property if they are considered to be overoccupying, with all the upheaval that that will mean? Such disabled people may not even be receiving DLA. A couple including a disabled person may have a two-bedroom house or flat which they need to house equipment. This equipment may include bulky and heavy items, such as oxygen tanks, mobility aids, hoists and so on. It might be a vital room for the disabled person or their partner or carer to be able to use in exceptional circumstances, as the noble Baronesses, Lady Hollis and Lady Turner, have both said. If there is no flexibility, will there have to be another pot of money to enable a couple to adapt a new, smaller home? I cannot believe that this is a sensible use of public money.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, my noble friend Lady Hollis has made a devastating case. I simply want to read out an e-mail that I received from someone who stands to be affected. She says:
“We have two children. Both girls are currently living in a two bedroom flat. We have been assessed by Social Services and GP as needing a three bedroom property due to our eldest daughter’s medical and welfare needs. She suffers from frequent, severe UTI infections which can leave her very poorly and in a lot of pain. She also suffers frequently from incontinence. This is having a very serious effect on her emotional well being and indeed is having a knock on effect on the whole family as we have to go in several times a night to see to our daughter to change her bedding, give her pain relief, clean nightwear, etc”.
This family had been told that they could move to a three-bedroom flat but have now been told that they cannot because of the incipient welfare reform legislation. The e-mail goes on to say:
“The new welfare legislation means that we are no longer entitled to a three bedroom even though they have written proof that we need one. This is now putting serious strain on my family and is affecting my eldest’s welfare. I cannot fight the law, I wish I was able to. I just want people to be made aware that families like mine suffer needlessly when these legislations are made. I would love nothing more than to be told my eldest can have her own room as I know her welfare would improve dramatically. But this is not going to happen”.
When I read this I thought that it surely could not be the case. However, presumably a family in this situation will not be allowed the bedroom that they need for their welfare. I feel dreadful reading such an e-mail and I hope that the Minister feels dreadful hearing it.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, the case made in the excellent opening speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, did not concentrate so much on the disability side, which we will come to in another bank of amendments, but was very strong indeed. Yes, the second part of Amendment 48 applies to disability, but her main thrust was on the adequacy of supply of houses.
The noble Baroness referred in particular to the situation in rural Norfolk. I can certainly vouch for the circumstances in the areas that I know in rural Wales, where this is an enormous problem because so much social and council housing in rural areas, particularly in beautiful rural areas, was bought under the right to buy legislation of the 1980s. Many of those properties that used to be social housing are now second homes. If anyone is expected to move in order to match the circumstances of the housing benefit permitted under this legislation, such people just will not find accommodation to meet those needs. It is suggested that they will find it in the private sector, but in rural areas, particularly where tourism is a major industry, the private housing sector is dominated by the rent that can be attained in the summer months from the tourism industry. Therefore, the likelihood of finding a suitable place is remote indeed.
My fear is that so many exceptions to the proposed legislation will arise that it will not be workable. We heard about the circumstances in Glasgow and the problems of disabled people who will be caught in this. With regard to the rural dimension, the one aspect that I would like to see is the building particularly of bungalows in the proximity of villages to provide the housing need, albeit that that would be a longer-term solution, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, mentioned. One knows that the one category of house in overwhelming demand everywhere is the bungalow. A programme that bought land on the borders of villages that was currently outside the development boundaries and towns into those boundaries, and that was therefore possible to acquire at an intermediate price between the market price for building land and the much lower value of agricultural land, should help to provide a stimulus for the building industry and an answer, over a period of time, for some of the imbalances in the housing stock.
I realise that this does not come under the purview of the Minister, but perhaps the Government could, in the seamless web that they create, think about that possibility as a longer-term solution.
Lord Stoneham of Droxford
My Lords, I declare an interest as chair of First Wessex Housing Group and chair-designate of Housing 21. I also appreciate the speeches of the noble Baronesses, Lady Hollis and Lady Turner, but underoccupation is a problem when there are great shortages in housing. It is fair to accept that we need to address this problem, but it would be unfair if we do not get right the details for the transition of these proposals.
I agreed particularly with what the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, said, in that we have to accept that we are dealing with people’s homes. They may be social homes or council houses, but they are people’s homes. We are not dealing simply with a marketable commodity. Some 670,000 tenants of working age are affected by these proposals and, as the noble Baroness said, many of the people in these homes are disabled. There are two fundamental problems. One is that underoccupation does not necessarily coincide with where there is the greatest housing need. The other is that the availability of supply to correct the problem is limited. I had the figures that the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, mentioned but in a different context; I thought that there were 180,000 social tenants underoccupying two-bedroom homes and that if we wanted to move them into one-bedroom homes, in the past year only 68,000 became available. That seems to be a critical figure.
We know that the other problem is that if we drive people out of social housing in the public sector, we may well add to public spending through the higher rents and the allowances that will have to be paid in the private sector. We want to hear from the Minister, in due course if not today, on the need to get the period of transition right to allow people to adapt and for the stock to adapt as well. We should concentrate on genuine occupation that can be corrected, and we should consider leaving out certain categories: disabled people, foster carers and those in supported housing. We should also concentrate on homes with more than two bedrooms that are underoccupied, and we should, as the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, said, look at a programme of bungalows and one-bedroom homes for older people who want to downsize. I have recently been involved in a scheme where people’s pride in their new homes is remarkable. We had to encourage them to move, but when they saw what was available they were very willing and proud to do so. However, if we concentrate now on the transition as the result of all these changes, we shall dry up the number of homes and the capacity to help people who genuinely want to move. Getting the transition right is therefore key to this change.
Baroness Wilkins
My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Wigley suggested, I will leave the arguments about disabled people until our debate on the next group of amendments, and talk first about people who are not able to move because of a lack of supply. The Riverside housing association says that for those who stay put, the loss of benefit,
“will have a very significant impact on household income at a time when tenants face huge pressures from rising fuel and food prices”.
Social landlords house,
“some of the poorest households in the country … Such losses would enforce difficult choices between subsistence items such as eating well, clothing the children and, of course, paying the rent”.
Riverside points out that two-thirds of its tenants have,
“a net household income … of less than £10,200 per annum”.
This will cause devastating hardship.
Lord German
My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Stoneham in his case for transition. My argument is that if we are going to introduce a policy of this sort, we have to ensure that the social and public housing sector is capable of meeting the changes that are being demanded by the policies of this Bill. Three policy ambitions underpin these clauses. The first relates to the inefficiencies in our social housing sector at the moment and the need to make better and more efficient use of our housing stock, bearing in mind that 7 per cent of homes in the social housing sector are overcrowded and 11 per cent are underoccupied. Already, there is a big mismatch. The second is that we want to increase mobility and strengthen the incentives to ensure that people can move within social housing in order to transfer into work. The third is the ambition to reduce the cost pressures on an ever increasing housing budget. We should remember that in today’s terms the budget has, over the past decade, increased from £14 billion to £22 billion a year, at the equivalent rate today.
My question for the Minister is: how prepared is the social housing sector to meet these changes in policy? If we follow the logic through, we see that there are only three choices that a tenant can make. The first is to pay the increased rent, which we know will on average be £13 a week for a one-bedroom overoccupier. The second is to occupy the spare room, which means either taking in a lodger or having the children back. I guess that some people would not mind having their children back but that others would not want them back at any cost. Whatever the circumstances, is that a realistic choice for many people?
The third choice that people will have is that they can move. In those three choices, what modelling has been done on how many people will make choice one, two or three? The only modelling I have seen has been from the National Housing Federation survey, which is only for part of the country, and they surveyed only 452 people. Clearly, if you are going to have a policy of this sort, the Government must be able to say that they have sought these solutions to ensure that their policy will work.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Can I ask the noble Lord a number of questions since he is asking the Minister a lot of questions? He seems to accept the policy in the Bill but only wants it postponed, so what is his attitude to the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis? What is his response, particularly to the point made by my noble friend Lady Turner that this should be done by agreement and not be forced on people?
Lord German
I think if the noble Lord would wait a few moments, he will see what I am proposing. It is on this piece of card, which I can pass to him, but if he just bears with me, I will give him three things which I think are essential in order to make this section of the Bill work. That is why I am posing the questions, because it seems to me that the solutions are not given in any of the documents.
The document from the DWP about what these choices will be and the three questions that people will have to answer says:
“it is unclear how this”—
the policy—
“will affect the choices of claimants that are likely to be affected by the measure”.
In other words, the Government do not know; or do they? If they do know, we need to ensure that we have those figures in front of us. If we are to avoid unintended consequences, we are going to have to look at the levers that ensure that the housing stock is accurate, and if the housing stock can, over time, match the needs of this particular policy.
As we know, there are 670,000 claimants, presumably of working age, which means that a third of a million non-working age claimants are underoccupying—the noble Lords, Lord Stoneham and Lord Wigley, have talked about elderly people underoccupying. Maybe there is an answer to that which the Minister and the Government have already thought about. There are no figures that I have seen in any of the documentation that indicate how we are going to manage to create a housing stock to match the changes. First, we need to know how many of the 670,000 are going to move and the modelling figure behind it. Until we have the answer to that, we cannot answer the question about how many houses we are going to need.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
The Government’s own impact assessment says:
“Estimates of Housing Benefit savings are based upon the current profile of tenants in the social rented sector, with little tenant mobility assumed”.
Lord German
I am grateful for that quotation, which of course goes against the other one that I gave from further on in the document, which says that we do not know what claimants’ choices are likely to be. The noble Baroness’s quotation has the word “little” in it. We have often reached the point where we have quoted from different sections of the same document, and that is why we need answers. We need to know which of the three choices people are going to make so that we can determine whether the homes are available for them. There are three solutions, which I put to the Minister and which we need answers about, at the very least after his answer to the fundamental question of whether we have the housing stock.
I ask the Minister, when replying, to talk not about the DCLG but about the three government departments that are responsible for these matters in this country, because three levers have to be pulled for the DWP to be able to answer that single question. What is the solution? I would like to know what the three government departments feel about how they can match housing demand. I must say that I am not particularly encouraged because, for many of us, moving house is probably the worst thing in the world that you could probably do. In fact, my noble friend Lord Kirkwood told me this morning that we ought to exchange our rubbish with our neighbour’s because our neighbour’s rubbish is much more interesting than our own. I have found moving house to be a very uncomfortable exercise, and I am sure we have to be careful of this. The Government say that they are working in England to develop a team of advisers who will work to help people to make better use of our housing stock, which is a laudable aim, but they also say that they will work with the devolved Administrations to see what can be done in Scotland and Wales. What can be done about the housing stock across the whole of the country where this policy impacts?
It seems to me that there are three potential solutions when we have the answers to the figures, one of which is that we must have housing money—discretionary housing money, or whatever—to ensure that the money reaches the particular groups that will need it in order to be able to make the adjustment. The second is about exceptions. We will come to that in the next set of amendments, but where the cost to the public purse can be demonstrated to be larger—and many of the amendments coming up now will demonstrate that—we must ensure that we have exceptions. The final point that has been made by many noble Lords here today is that we must have transition time for the social housing sector in all three parts of the country where this Bill applies to make the changes in order that this policy works. We cannot achieve the original purposes of these measures, all of which I think are right, without achieving those three things and without ensuring that we have a sector that can—
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I have listened very carefully, and the noble Lord’s Welsh eloquence—what do you call it, hwyl?—is impressive, but he has still not made it clear to me whether his speech is in support of the amendment by my noble friend Baroness Hollis.
Lord German
My speech, my Lords, is in favour of the policy proposals that are behind this measure, but in order to achieve that this amendment has given us an opportunity to explore the issues that need to be satisfied in order that we can proceed. And hwyl, by the way, is spelt H-W-Y-L, for the record.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
Does that mean, therefore, that the noble Lord supports the DWP definition of underoccupancy in which there can be, except for special groups, no spare bedroom, as opposed to the DCLG one, which I outlined, which allowed at least one bedroom more—and in the latest Parliamentary Answer from Grant Shapps is two bedrooms more? Is that what the noble Lord was saying? We need to be clear where he is coming from on this.
Lord German
I cannot answer that question until such time as we have the answer to what our housing stock is, how many are going to move, and for those who are going to move whether there is available housing for them. That was the answer to the question, and the one I will give if the noble Baroness asks me again.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
This is an “in principle” question: what definition of overcrowding or underoccupying is the noble Lord assuming such that the transitional arrangements must seek to meet and adapt to?
Lord German
I will repeat the answer that I gave the noble Baroness just now.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I have still not had the answer to my question. I do not want him to repeat it, just to clarify it. It was the pronunciation of hwyl I had problems with, not the spelling.
For all his bluster and eloquence, I think the noble Lord has confirmed that he still supports the coalition Government’s dreadful proposals in the Bill. All his questions to the Minister are really just to cover up that fact.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester
The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, is bullying my noble friend, which is outrageous. My noble friend is exploring the issues around this question, which is perfectly valid in Committee.
Lord German
If the noble Lord wants me to answer the question, I can answer it, and will answer it in this way; I believe that the three underpinning policies behind this section of this measure are correct, but in order to achieve those we have to answer some of the fundamental questions, which the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis of Heigham, raised earlier on today. I have also tried to seek answers to those questions, because I have not found them. That is what we are here to do, and that is what the Committee stage of a Bill is about, it seems to me, but I am new to this particular Parliament. In the one I have come from, that is what we would do: explore these issues.
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope
My Lords, I am provoked into joining this discussion, which I was going to leave until the next group of amendments.
First, underoccupation is one of the most serious concerns in this Bill, and I think that those concerns are shared across the Committee. I do not think that it helps to start picking away at the positions of individual members of the Committee at this time. What I think we are trying to do is to make it clear to the Government that the current proposals are unacceptable. They are unacceptable to me for two reasons. One is process—and we touched on the discussion about transition. On 1 April 2013, between 5 per cent and 10 per cent of the case load, which is arguably 67,000 working-age families, will be tipped into debt. It is a brick wall that they cannot avoid. It is very unusual for a social policy change of this magnitude not to have built in a transitional provision.
With a little bit of application and consideration, we might be able to address the issue of overoccupation, which it would be sensible to do in the long term. Speaking for myself, I think that Amendment 44 is close to doing that, although Amendment 40 is not far away. I got a very interesting note from Moat housing the other day, which suggested that:
“Two bedroom properties or below should never be regarded as ‘under-occupied’”.
It is as simple as that. That is another way of expressing it. I do not know what it would cost, but the Committee is right to explore some of these circumstances, which have ramifications for social landlords as well as everyone else. What worries me more than anything else is that on 1 April—that may be an appropriate date—in 2013, that change will be made, and people have very little protection or room for manoeuvre.
The other very interesting suggestion that Moat housing made to me, which I had never heard before, was that a “soft start” could be adopted when people were demonstrating that they were taking steps to address the underoccupation that they were allegedly facing at the time. They could continue to get the full support until they had made the appropriate arrangements. It would probably take 18 months or two years to work out in the wash; that may be too tight a period—it might take longer than that to do safely. As a Committee, we are looking for a safe transition process and a way of limiting the brick wall of debt that 670,000 of our social tenants in the United Kingdom will face on 1 April 2013. That is a matter of concern across the Committee, which I think we should represent to the Government in a way that will occasion constructive change on Report.
Baroness Sherlock
My Lords, there is very little left to say, particularly after the astonishingly impressive opening speech of my noble friend Lady Hollis. If I were a Minister facing that speech across the Table I would have run the white flag up and gone to the pub, but the Minister is clearly made of sterner stuff than me, which is probably just as well.
I have two questions, the first specific and the second general. First, what discussions has the Minister had with colleagues in other departments about the position of children in relation to the implementation of these provisions? Like many other noble Lords, I have had a number of cases raised with me on the position of disabled children, to which we may return, and children with health problems, as discussed by my noble friend Lady Lister. Also, Barnardo’s, for example, raised with me the position of families in which a child or children are in temporary care. For example, they may live temporarily under a residence order with their grandparent, and while the family is trying to get the children back it may look as though they are underoccupying when they are not. There is a whole series of exceptions. I am interested in the specifics, but more generally has the Minister talked to colleagues in other departments about the impact on child welfare, safeguarding and well-being or child poverty when this policy is implemented?
The second question is one the answer to which I would be very interested to hear. We have talked a lot about modelling and transition, but the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, talked about what seemed to me to be an astonishingly simple amendment. She said that somebody should not be required to do something that they are incapable of doing. What is the Minister’s philosophical reply to that?
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I start by saying that it was good to hear a defence of the noble Lord, Lord German, who arrived in the House at the same time as I did. However, I thought that being asked questions and dealing with them was a wonderful preparation for being Minister, and I hope that the government Whip has taken note of that.
It is difficult to add to the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, who, as the Guardian said last week—and only the Guardian could use these words—gave a “frankly beautiful speech”, and an astonishing one today, as it was described by my noble friend Lady Sherlock. I hope only to add a few remarks in support of what she said. First, I remind us, as did my noble friend Lady Turner, of the special nature of a home. We know the importance of feeling secure in one’s home and that one of the biggest causes of stress is a house move. It affects all of us, whether we are owner-occupiers or renters, old or young, rich or poor. As the noble Lord, Lord German, said, it is one of the worst things that we have to do.
Lord Freud
My Lords, the size criteria measure marks a significant change in our approach to housing benefit for claimants living in the social rented sector. The current housing benefit system is not fair; it is not right that families on benefit in the private rented sector have been able to live in homes that most working families could not afford, and we have already begun to tackle that unfairness through changes to the local housing allowance. It is also not fair that, in the social rented sector, housing benefit pays out the full rent on properties that are larger than required by those who live in them, while at the same time over 250,000 households in England are overcrowded.
To pick up one of the many points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, on the bedroom standard, that standard actually expects children aged over 16 to share a room with children of the same gender until they are 21. That is a rather tougher requirement than that of the DWP and the LHA, which allows separate bedrooms for a child of the same gender, aged 16 and over.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, that was why I specified a 15 year-old in my illustration of bedroom size.
Lord Freud
I shall continue. By 2014-15, the annual savings achieved as a result of housing benefit reform as a whole will exceed £2 billion. It is right that the social rented sector plays its part in achieving those savings. The size criteria measure itself will achieve around £0.5 billion of savings each year from 2013-14.
On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, about room size—the example that he used was his nearby city of Glasgow and its tenements—the size of rooms is something that we are looking at with stakeholders as part of the implementation planning. That concern is shared by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis. It is an issue that we are looking at.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Could the Minister describe what he means by a bedroom?
Lord Freud
My Lords, I am tempted to ask the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, to come and save me from bullying by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I will make it easier for the Minister then, since he is finding it difficult. In my city of Edinburgh, there are a lot of houses with rooms that do not have external windows—they are box rooms. Some occasionally have a small skylight. Is that within the definition of a bedroom? Another example might be studio flats, or studio flats that may then have an extra bedroom attached to them. Is that a two-bedroom or a one-bedroom flat? Another might be my study. Is my study a bedroom or is it a study? It was used as a bedroom by the previous occupier, but now it is a study. These are just three examples of difficulties from the very start and the most simple part of the Bill: that is, the description of a bedroom.
Lord Freud
Certainly, the study of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, would seem to me to be a bedroom. However, box rooms without opening windows normally would not count as bedrooms. There is a series of rules that we will go through as we work through the implementation planning with stakeholders.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Then you tempt tenants to board up their windows, as some owners used to do when there were window taxes.
Lord Freud
The coalition Government, my Lords, are not Queen Anne and we will resist any of those blocked up windows, which still blight many villages and which I know the noble Lord is very concerned about.
This is more than just a savings exercise. Housing benefit payments in both sectors will become more balanced in a way that will restore fairness, encourage better use of our existing social housing stock and encourage more people into employment.
The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked about the impact on children in particular. The impact assessment shows that claimants with children are less likely to be affected by the measure than those without children. Only around a third of the claimants potentially affected have children living with them. DWP officials have been working very closely in this area with officials from DCLG, the Department for Education and HMT.
It is reasonable to expect people living in the social rented sector to make choices about the affordability and the size of their accommodation, just as those in the private sector, and those who are not on benefit, have to.
My noble friend Lord Kirkwood spoke about transition and phasing. I should remind the Committee that these measures were announced in the summer of 2010 with a view to their taking effect, as has been observed, in April 2013. We think that this provides adequate lead-in time and we aim to have regulations in place by April 2012 to allow for a full year of implementation. If you like, you can look at that period as the transition phase, as people make appropriate arrangements.
Let me move on to Amendment 48, which comes in two parts. The first part would place a duty on social landlords to find suitable alternative accommodation for claimants who are underoccupying their property. If a smaller property cannot be offered to the claimant’s household, the size criteria measure would not apply. The second part relates to those who live in significantly adapted accommodation, and I will come on to that shortly. We are working closely with the Department for Communities and Local Government, and others, as we explore ways to best support landlords, local authorities and tenants, leading up to the implementation of this measure. That work is ongoing, and we will look at how we can work to ensure that claimants’ options are clearly set out, well in advance of the measure coming into force in April 2013.
It is important that local authorities and other providers of social housing make more effective use of their stock, and this measure, alongside the Localism Bill, will provide not only a greater incentive but a means for achieving that. This measure is about asking people on benefit to make realistic choices about the affordability of their accommodation when it is larger than they need. It is in the interests of social landlords to make the best use of their stock in order to make sure that tenants are able to pay their rent. For this reason most landlords would try to offer alternative housing options whenever they could. The specific duty on social landlords in Amendment 48 is therefore unnecessary and would raise important concerns around control, classification and enforceability. We do not want to impose regulations on to social landlords just for the sake of it.
The Government are providing funding to councils—£13 million over four years until 2015-16—to assist them in supporting underoccupying tenants who wish to move, as well as funding an action team within the Chartered Institute of Housing to work with all social landlords to help them to promote moves. The Government are investing £4.5 billion to help to deliver up to 170,000 new, affordable homes over the next four years.
This amendment would also exempt claimants from the measures where no suitable alternative accommodation is available. However, we expect that many people will decide to remain in their existing property, and make up the shortfall, even if an alternative offer of smaller accommodation is available, so it is likely that such an exemption would be an expensive waste of money in many cases. Of course, without a definition of suitable alternative accommodation, it is not easy to estimate how much this exemption would cost, but let us be clear that it would be extremely complex to deliver, and undoubtedly place a significant dent in the expected savings that would need to be found from elsewhere. I do not think this is a sensible way forward.
I understand that there are concerns about the supply of smaller properties. Claimants affected by this measure will have to decide whether to meet any shortfall themselves—from their earnings for example, or they could take in a lodger, or someone they know, to fill the extra bedrooms. If they do decide that moving to a smaller property is the only option to avoid getting into arrears, the social rented sector should not be seen as the only option. Private renting may be an appropriate alternative for some of those affected.
Changes being taken forward by the Department for Communities and Local Government through the Localism Bill will make it easier for councils and housing associations to move underoccupying tenants. However, this is not just about landlords. Some tenants can, and perhaps should, take more responsibility for arranging a move themselves. The new national homeswap scheme, Home Exchange Direct, will increase opportunities for social tenants looking to move through mutual exchange. Home Exchange Direct brings together the four internet providers of mutual exchange services to offer tenants more choice over where they live. Ultimately, landlords in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales will also be able to join the new scheme.
Amendment 34A also probes the availability of suitably sized accommodation. The provisions in subsection (3) will restrict how the other powers relating to the provision of housing costs may be used. Adding a line in subsection (3) to take into account the availability of suitable accommodation will not limit the way in which those other powers can be used. I take it that this amendment is really intended to ensure that claimants are unaffected by the size criteria in circumstances where no suitable alternative accommodation is available, and I have already made my thoughts clear on that. I recognise that, for some households in certain circumstances, moving may not be appropriate or should be delayed. Local housing authorities are best placed to take into account individual households’ circumstances. Where it is appropriate, they may offer help to meet a rent shortfall through the discretionary housing payment scheme.
The question of how people might respond was raised by my noble friend Lord German and the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, who I congratulate on her speech. She has made a series of excellent speeches. The most up-to-date evidence is the survey by the Housing Futures Network on claimants’ behaviour, which came out recently. It showed a variety of initial reactions. Twenty-five per cent of respondents said that they were quite or very likely to downsize; 50 per cent said that they were unlikely to consider moving; 29 per cent said they would be quite or very likely to move into work or increase their hours; and around 15 per cent said that they were quite or very likely to take in a lodger or offer a spare room to a family member. Therefore, around 65 per cent of the survey’s respondent group are looking to change their behaviour. In the interests of full reporting of that survey, I should add that 35 per cent said that they were quite or very likely to run into arrears. Clearly, over the next couple of years we will look at putting strategies in place to make sure that that does not happen.
The second part of the amendment would provide an exemption from the size criterion measure for those living in significantly adapted accommodation. I appreciate that within this amendment there is acknowledgment of the need to draw a line somewhere and not just exempt all claimants in any form of adapted accommodation. I have noted the different views put forward in this Committee on how we might begin to do that.
The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, raised the question of disabled children. We are looking at ways to limit the impact on disabled children effectively and in an affordable way. I am sure she will understand that I do not want to comment today on the specifics of that, but I can assure her that very active consideration is going on. I should add the reminder that over this SR period we are already spending a lot of money—a total of £190 million, of which £130 million is for discretionary housing payments.
Since the measure was debated in the other House in May—I think the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, was right about that—we have looked in detail at the possibility of an exemption for a tightly drawn group living in adapted accommodation. The work that we have undertaken to look at this in detail, in conjunction with various stakeholders, has revealed that such an approach is complex and has drawbacks. The issues that have been highlighted are finely balanced, so I should like to take a little more time to deal with them. My department is working closely with officials from the DCLG. We are continuing to talk to stakeholders as we do so. I hope to return to this matter when we debate Clause 68, and certainly by the time we get to Report if that is too tight.
My response to the question of my noble friend Lord German on the evaluation of the reforms is that we intend to undertake independent monitoring and evaluation to assess the impact of this set of measures and the changes in the social rented sector, and we expect the research to be undertaken over a two-year period, 2013-14, with preparatory work starting in 2012-30.
With that in mind and the assurances I have given more generally, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, first, I thank warmly all those who have taken part; it has been a helpful as well as a highly focused debate on the issue of underoccupancy and leads us usefully into some of the other debates that we are to face.
I do not think that the Minister addressed the issues raised in full. My noble friend Lady Turner talked not just about the difference between stock and a home but about the need for local support, and so on, as you get older, and the fact that we may cut all the connections which the big society and localism are urging us to strengthen. We did not have a full reply to that. The noble Baronesses, Lady Thomas and Lady Wilkins, talked about the cost of adaptions to spare bedrooms. We will come to greater detail on that when we discuss disability issues. About two-thirds of those who are regarded as underoccupying by DWP criteria have a degree of disability. It will be difficult to decide where we draw the line.
Then there was the issue of the difference in localities. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and my noble friend Lord Foulkes, as well as my noble friend Lady Hayter, in a powerful speech about Lambeth, showed that in each of these cases the stock was not there to deliver what the Minister seeks. I attempted to throw in some evidence from rural Norfolk. The division was between those of us who regard the definition of underoccupying that DWP proposes to adopt as targeting intrinsically—an opinion that I share—and those of us who say that if it is too tight, none the less the transitional arrangements are not sufficiently generous to make it possible even to move in that direction.
Members of the coalition Government have raised the issue that we need discretionary money. There is not enough of it, as I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord German, will be aware. My local authority ran out half way through the year, and it was helping only a couple of dozen families. The noble Lord asked about exceptions, but we will have definitional problems there. He asked for transition time for stock balancing and made the point about bungalows, which is absolutely right. That will take a decade or more to achieve. On the point about unacceptable process made by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, and the need for a safe transition process, frankly we will have had a further two social security Bills—as I would like to call them—in the intervening stage before we can address that.
I found the Minister’s answer deeply disappointing. The two words that he was using were “fair” and “choice”. I think he said that it was not fair that social tenants should have a spare bedroom when other people might not be able to afford such; that there should be better use of accommodation for families who are overcrowded; and that it was right that the social sector should continue to contribute £0.5 billion or so to the proposed expenditure cuts of £2 billion to housing benefit. As for better use, only about 5 per cent of housing benefit tenants are overcrowded. If we had the stock available to meet the requests of those who wish to move, we could probably meet that overcrowding today. As for the Minister’s point about home swap, frankly, under different labels, we have been doing that for decades. There is nothing new there, but I welcome the fact that the Minister is looking at room size.
The key question is why the DWP is not accepting what I understand to be the DCLG definition. That means that on 2 April 2013, there will be a family in Norwich in bed-and-breakfast accommodation who have been lingering there for a couple of weeks, to the distress of the children, but technically they require two-bed accommodation if they are not immediately to find that their HB does not meet their rent. The local authority and the housing association, because we jointly have a choice-based letting system, only has three-bedroom houses available. Will the Minister tell me what we do? Do I say to that family that they must stay in an B&B for yet another fortnight or another three weeks until possibly the perfect fit of a two-bedroom property comes up in a place near where their children have started going to school, or do I say they can move into a three-bedroom house but that they have to take the hit? The local authority may help them with the first month or so, but after that they are on the own and will have arrears, and they may go back into the recycling of bed and breakfast accommodation.
As someone who is intimately involved in this, I am afraid I know that that is what we will be facing on day two or day three after 1 April 2013, and the Minister must tell us what we say to that family: move into accommodation that is notionally too large, not by DCLG standards but by housing benefits standards, and pay the price, or stay put in bed and breakfast accommodation, with everything that we know happens to children in that situation and how damaging and stressful it is for the family concerned. The noble Lord emphasised that there are choices in what people can afford—there is no choice. His concept of fairness seems to run like this—I think this is how the syllogism worked. We start with a definition that is tight, in my view too tight, which requires 670,000 families to move, two-thirds of them with a degree of disability. Yet knowing that, we do not have the property, and we do not expect the tenants to move because they cannot. They have no choice. We then, thirdly, go on to fine them for something they can do nothing about.
I do not believe in my wildest moments that the Minister would regard that as fair. It is not fair. We all know it is not fair. A transition arrangement would be fine if it is going to be long enough, but that takes time to adjust the stock, but it is not fair to punish people for something over which they have no power to change and in which they have no choice. I am hoping the Minister will rethink this because many of us feel very strongly indeed. There are various aspects of it that I perfectly well understand, such as the need to try to cap HB expenditure. We will come back to why that is happening, but it is certainly not because of this. It is happening, as the latest reports from the chartered institute and the property federation show, because of the increase from 49 per cent to 52 per cent of the case load in the local housing allowance in the south of England, which is more expensive with a higher number of claimants. It is nothing to do with this at all. I hope the Minister will run that when we come to that debate.
Does he suggest that it is fair to punish tenants for something over which they have no choice, in a way that is antithetical in every other aspect of social security legislation of which I am aware? We sanction when people could and should change their behaviour. If they cannot, we do not; full stop. Yet with this the Minister breaches that profound principle to benefit policy in this country, and I deeply hope, because I know he is a decent man and I believe he genuinely holds to concepts of fairness here, that he will think again and hopefully be able to change his mind before we come back to this on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) Regulations under subsection (3)(a) must ensure that payment for mortgage interest continues to be made available long-term for people acquiring a home via the Home Ownership for People with Long-term Disabilities (HOLD) scheme.”
Lord Rix
My Lords, I assure the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, that I have spoken at the Royal Albert Hall, the Royal Festival Hall and in a field at Cardiff Castle, and I trust that your Lordships can hear me in Committee Room 4A.
It is perhaps appropriate that with Amendment 35 I am in pole position in this vast group of amendments, for I am putting forward the case for people who reached the back of the grid only some 20 years ago and who had never been allowed near the track before then. I am of course talking about people with a learning disability. As your Lordships are aware, this Bill aims to introduce regulations laying out not only how housing benefit costs can be integrated into the universal credit but how mortgage costs would in future be covered in this context.
The purpose of this amendment, tabled in my name, is to ensure that disabled people have opportunities to buy a property via the home ownership scheme for people with a long-term disability, otherwise known as HOLD. Until October 2010, disabled people were able to access the higher rate of support for mortgage interest, or SMI, which meant that some mortgage providers were willing to lend to people with a long-term disability under the HOLD scheme by providing very specialist mortgages. The Royal Mencap Society, of which I have the honour of being president, believes that, contrary to all expectations, more than 1,000 people with a learning disability have been enabled to buy their own homes by this route. There are many more who hope and are able to follow in their pioneering footsteps. However, the abolition of the higher rate for SMI has meant that these mortgages are no longer available. This route into housing for people with a learning disability has, in effect, been closed down.
The purpose of the amendment is, effectively, to reinstate this route of home ownership for disabled people. It would also ensure that the Government’s support for care in the community continues to be a reality. Turning again to the analogy of motor racing, I am concerned that if we do not take appropriate action on this point now, people with a learning disability could be forced to take a prolonged pit stop, during which others will continue to lap them in the race to secure a decent and comfortable home.
In this group I support Amendments 36, 38, 39, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83 and 84. I beg to move.
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope
My Lords, I shall speak briefly to Amendment 36. This group is not as complicated as it looks because there are two sets of mirrored amendments. I look forward to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Best, whose knowledge is well understood in this House. The meat of the group is to do with the exceptions, which relate, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, accurately said, to our earlier debate.
Amendment 36 does a slightly different thing. Before I speak to it briefly, I shall refer to what I said in the previous session of the Grand Committee. We are all under pressure to disaggregate groups of amendments because the people who are promoting the amendments think that they get better consideration in the Government’s reply if they are considered individually. It is better to have a debate around a wider set of amendments but it will not work for the purposes of the people who tabled them unless the Minister is able to say something about individual amendments. If he cannot, the flexibility in the Government’s position cannot be properly understood and appropriate arrangements cannot be made for Report. The Minister has a very difficult job because there are many amendments on the Order Paper, but they are all important in their own way. If he can address them individually to the best of his ability, that would be a favour.
Amendment 36 tries to lift and lay the existing protections in the current provision of housing benefit in the private and public sectors under the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992. Clause 11 is very regulation-oriented. Its last three subsections refer to regulations that determine a whole series of things and are the basis for the amount of housing costs. What Clause 11 does not do is provide for entitlement to be related to rents in individual localities. These are key concepts in the existing system that we want to make sure are enshrined in the new provision under universal credit.
Lord Best
I am glad to start with that affirmation in advance. I am speaking to Amendments 38, 39, 40, 42, 43, 44, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83 and 84. This group of amendments relates back to the underoccupation penalty, about which we have heard so much.
I was deeply impressed by the array of speeches from the noble Baronesses, Lady Hollis, Lady Turner, Lady Lister, Lady Sherlock and Lady Hayter—the opposition Baronesses. I wondered what the plural was and I thought of it by the end: it is “a battery of Baronesses”. I thought that I might feel annoyed that they had stolen all my speech in various instalments, but I did not. Instead, I felt admiration and was in entire agreement with what they said.
My amendments in this group include two, Amendments 44 and 84, which relate to the fundamental point here: the definition of an underoccupied home, one in which people will either pay a penalty, have to move or make some other arrangements. The amendments suggest that we should stay with the standard that we have used in the past; that is, the standard used by the Department for Communities and Local Government and the Tenant Services Authority. This allows you the basic bedroom standard plus one bedroom. The amendments call for that status quo to be resumed. I have been involved in housing matters for some 42 years. During that time, we have grappled a lot with issues around underoccupancy in managing property that I have been responsible for and trying to incentivise people to move when that has been sensible. I do not think that it is possible to insist on the basic bedroom standard and expect people to live in the homes that they would then be required to live in. That is not how we occupy our properties in this country; 83.9 per cent of owner-occupiers fail this test straightaway. Most other people, in these terms, underoccupy the homes that they live in. Indeed, we build accommodation on the basis that you are going to underoccupy it. The housebuilding industry knows that people like to be able to tell their parents that they have bought a three-bedroom house. It is actually a two-bedroom house with a box room added. We do not expect people to occupy all those rooms in the real world of owner-occupation, and people move when they fill them up. I cannot believe that social housing tenants’ lives are so different that they will be able to cope with the basic bedroom standard.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, gave some illustrations. The example that I might well have quoted was read out by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister—I received the same, very impressive e-mail about a family with two daughters. I give my own example. Let us try not to pull the heart strings. It is just an ordinary case of a family where there are two girls, of 14 and nine, who are not at the moment sharing—thank goodness, because the teenage girl of 14 does not want to share with her nine year-old sister. People have lives to lead as well as homework to do; they want to invite their friend in and listen to music or whatever they want to do. The 14 year-old does not want to share with a nine year-old who goes to bed at a completely different time. Theoretically, they have to move out. They will move down from a three-bedroom to a two-bedroom home. However, it will not take long before the 15 year-old is 16 and can get a room of her own. They can then move back again—of course, the former home will not be available. It will not be long, though, before that older girl leaves home, and then the family will have to move out again. This is ridiculous—people moving around to try to fit in with the rules.
Let us face it: the impact assessment makes it quite clear that it is about saving money. Reducing the cost of housing benefit is of course a very important objective, but the great majority of ordinary people, even those who do not have small children or children of the wrong sex who will not be able to be fitted together in the right boxes, need an extra room. Their children come back—does no one realise that they have not gone for ever? Sometimes, their coming back saves other people a lot of money because the parents will put them up and look after them during some period of crisis in their lives—marriages break down; all kinds of things happen. Indeed, you in your older age or even in your middle age may get sick and need a member of the family to come back and occupy the spare room and a keep an eye on you for a bit. To have that one spare room available, even when you do not have children to put in it, is the way that the rest of us live, and it has to work for social housing—I have never found a way of persuading people otherwise. This measure is a way, I fear, of raising money. It is a fundraiser, because almost nobody in these circumstances will move. They will just have to pay—or forgo, as it is—£13 a week, which is a serious amount of money for people on very low incomes. It begins to tot up.
The consequences of that will be shared. They will be felt by the individuals, who try to cut their living standards at a time when fuel bills and everything else are rising. It will be felt also by the landlords, because it will be extremely difficult to collect the money which has not been received by way of housing benefit. That means that arrears will begin to accumulate.
At first, landlords will be tolerant and helpful and try to see this through, but eventually—and I have been responsible for social housing—you get to the point where, pour encourager les autres, you have to proceed with eviction. After a while, arrears become too much. If they cannot be paid, people are going to have to be moved out, and then you get all the cost of that.
I cannot believe that people are going to move. It costs a great deal to move. Your carpets will not fit the place to which you are moving; your curtains will not fit. You have to pay disconnection charges for your electricity suppliers, and so on. People are not going to keep moving; they are just going to be stuck there and have to pay up, or forgo the money. I do not think that it is fair. The rest of us do not feel, for a moment, that that is how we would expect to live. I do not think that people, just because they are in social housing, should be expected to.
The amendment says that if you have two rooms which, using the basic bedroom standard, would be regarded as unoccupied—they would probably be a study or whatever—you would pay the penalty, but you would not do so for one bedroom, using this very tight definition. That is the effect of Amendments 44 and 84.
Is there a solution to the problems of underoccupancy? I am not going to burden you with a long speech on this, but underoccupancy is mostly about people over pension age. They are specifically excluded from this measure. However, they are the ones who are actually underoccupying, often in a three-bedroom home, and who—if only we could find the incentives and the ways of moving people—could be moved on, and families could take those homes.
I declare my interests: I chair a housing association called Hanover. Hanover has 19,000 properties, but they are all retirement properties. We concentrate exclusively on older people.
Our target is the underoccupying elderly person, whose home, even though they feel quite reluctant to move, is not suitable any more. If it has three bedrooms, stairs, a garden that needs to be kept up and heating bills that are higher than they should be, it is a great idea if we can move people out of those three-bedroom houses. They are desperately needed by families. Housebuilders have tended to build just flats, and not houses with gardens, so these are really valuable to the rest of society. The incentives to move are what we need.
We have shown in my housing association—others have done just as well—that if you provide something that is really good, then people will move. They are not going to go to scruffy old bedsits in sheltered housing that has seen much better days. But they will go if it is to somewhere manageable, clean, bright, open and companionable.
Lord Best
Well, preferably a bungalow, but mostly we just do flats, but they can be smart apartments. Yes, you could move.
There are some 240,000 families who are overcrowded. We have far more elderly people who are underoccupying than that. We could give incentives to older people, the incentive being the really nice apartment elsewhere. It gives you two-for-one, because you release your family home. This is not the approach being taken in this legislation.
If we are going to have to reconcile ourselves to there being this penalty, then the other amendments in this group come into play, which are about exemptions, exceptions and letting some people off. I hope it does not come to this, but if it does, a series of exemptions is outlined in the amendments that follow.
Amendments 38 and 79 would remove the underoccupation penalty for the 100,000 properties that have been specially adapted to meet the needs of a disabled tenant—we have heard a little about that already. It would be daft to move a household with a disabled family member to smaller premises if the costs of fitting out the new home—for example, with a level-access shower or removal of steps—far exceeded the savings from cutting the housing benefit and left wasted adaptations behind because no other household needed the particular adaptations made to the previous home.
Similarly, Amendments 39 and 80 would exempt the 200,000 households in receipt of disability living allowance, or the new personal independence payment, in the same way that DLA recipients have been excluded from the proposed total housing benefit cap. Some extra space for those with disabilities can even save money when that allows a carer to move in during a difficult period for the disabled person, saving the cost of hospital or residential care. Amendments 40 and 81, which are supported by the Fostering Network and Barnardo’s, as well as the housing charities, which are behind all the amendments, would exempt properties where families are providing foster care placements.
I am sure that it is simply a fault of the drafting, but, at present, the Bill would not count foster children as part of the household. Therefore, any rooms they occupy would be classified as unoccupied. That is clearly nonsense, and I am sure that the Minister will explain how that will be put right in future.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
Am I right in believing that, to become a foster carer, you must have a spare bedroom? If you have a spare bedroom, you are hurt and hit by the HB rules.
Lord Best
I fear that that is exactly the position. Others may wish to come in on the amendment about foster parents.
Amendments 43 and 83 would not require an underoccupying tenant to move out where there was simply nowhere for them to downsize to—the fundamental point behind the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis. For example, the National Housing Federation has demonstrated that about 180,000 social housing tenants would be classified as underoccupying their two-bedroom homes and would need to move on, but that only about 68,000 one-bedroom social housing flats come available for letting in a year. Even if every one of the one-bedroom flats was allocated to those who are downsizing—which of course would be impossible as there are serious demands from tens of thousands of other such households—it would take years before they could be accommodated.
In the past, we built social housing between the world wars and afterwards. Mostly, we built three-bedroom housing. Now we have a lot of households that require something smaller, but we do not have enough houses to put them in. Here, again, the impossibility of people moving means that the exemption would kick in. If they were expected to downsize into less secure private rented properties, rents are likely to be much higher and therefore the benefit costs, the universal credit costs, would be much higher—about £66 per week more in south-east England. That is not a great saving. The housing benefit bill would be likely to rise dramatically although people were occupying less space.
Moving creates the familiar barrier to employment. Moving to somewhere with a higher rent itself intensifies demand on the private rented sector, which will push up rents more generally.
Of the amendments, my preferred option is to define underoccupying as exceeding the bedroom standard plus one—that is, having two “spare” bedrooms. That would cut the gains to the Government from the underoccupation penalty to 150,000 households from the 670,000 that the Government are expecting to be caught by the new penalty.
If the Government cannot accept that, I hope that, alongside the exclusion for older people—the category most likely to be underoccupying at the moment— exemptions could be put in place for disabled people in adapted property, recipients of disability allowance, families classified as underoccupying because foster children are not counted, those unable to move because no suitable alternative exists, and those in supported or sheltered housing where a spouse or partner dies or leaves them and who are below pensionable age and would be compelled to move out. Added together, those exemptions would certainly reduce the hardship and extra costs implicit in the underoccupation penalty. I look forward to hearing comments from other noble Lords and the reaction of the Minister.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, before I speak to my amendment in this group, perhaps I may follow the noble Lord, Lord Best, in his concerns about the impact of this move to an underoccupation penalty, particularly on families. It was encouraging to hear from the Minister the results of his survey and some positive outcomes to the changes whereby people will look for work, or think of getting a lodger. However, what concerned me about his comments were the large numbers who might go into arrears. I have observed from my experience of young people leaving care and of other families that people leading chaotic lives tend to think from day to day.
Therefore, given the example given by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, if a family in bed and breakfast accommodation were offered a three-bedroom house that seems to suit them but may be too large, they may say, “We will take it and deal with the arrears when they come. We will not think of the future”. Then they end up in arrears and in serious difficulty because they are not able to cope with the worry of being in debt and they do not know what to do. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Best, for highlighting the fact that this issue needs close attention from the Government, and I look forward to learning more about it. He has a good point. This is a serious worry with the underoccupation penalty.
The noble Lord also raised the question of foster carers. Under the current absurd arrangement, foster caring and providing a room to a foster child would not count as a room and in this scenario would count against one. I am not expressing that very clearly, but I think your Lordships understand what I mean. I suppose it might be argued that this will be an incentive for some people to foster if they have a spare room. If the Bill is changed to be made sane, they would not be caught by this part of the legislation.
However, I have two further thoughts. First, there is a real question as to how far one should professionalise foster caring. People should go into foster caring because they love children and want to provide a good home to a child. I know that there is a debate about the professionalisation of foster care but, in principle at least, people should be motivated by caring for children, not making a bit of extra money or saving some money. Secondly, the harms that may arise from this proposal by far outweigh any potential benefits of that kind. If such families get into arrears there is perhaps the cost to the mental health service as the family breaks down under stress. There is the cost to the education system as their children fail. One needs to look at the bigger picture rather than just think about short-term savings.
Perhaps I may sum up. I apologise for using my laptop on this occasion; however, I cannot get internet access today and I was unable to download my notes and print them out. My Amendment 85 is modelled on the previous amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, and I apologise to the Committee because I drafted my amendment rather poorly. I should have referred to children looked after by local authorities rather than those cared for by them. My intention is to gain an assurance from the Minister that families who have their children looked after by a local authority may retain a room for that child to return to when he is ready. While a few children are adopted from care, most return home sooner or later, and it is right that they should have a room when that happens. It is important for the parents to retain a sense that their child remains their child and that they remain the parents. That is important because their children will normally still love their parents, however they have been treated, and will need to feel there is a place for them in their parents’ home. It is important also because the child will eventually return. Generally, we should strongly encourage these parents to retain their sense of responsibility for their own children. An experienced child and family social worker has reminded me that it will also be important for the child to know that his parents will be keeping a room for him. He will need to feel that he is still wanted and there is still a home for him with his parents.
In the year ending 31 March 2011, 3,050 children were adopted out of a population at that time of 65,520 children who were being looked after. Very few children, then, were adopted. Children who are subject to residence orders, or are being cared for informally by the Ryder family, are all the more likely to return to their families. Barnado’s has expressed concern about these children. This matter was also raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler of Enfield, at Second Reading. There is a separate amendment in this group, which I support, on those particular groups of children.
I would be most grateful if the Minister could reassure me that families whose children are looked after by a local authority would not normally be subject to the underoccupation penalty. I apologise if the problem with my drafting has made it more difficult for him to reply. I would certainly find a letter acceptable if that seemed more appropriate in the circumstances.
I will not speak to my Amendment 86 because my understanding is that the benefit arrangements for care leavers are such that the concern I had is not an issue. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Lord German
My Lords, I speak to Amendments 48C, 48D and 86ZZZA in my name. It is appropriate that I should speak after the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, because the issue he raised about care and children coming back from care is crucial. The three amendments in my name all relate to children and are intended to make sure that the suite of amendments here, which I have looked at very carefully, does not miss out one or two crucial groups relating to children.
Amendment 48C and Amendment 86ZZZA relate to disabled children. Amendment 48D relates to families with children in temporary care—and I echo much of what the noble Earl has just said about that matter. First, I turn to Amendment 48C and Amendment 86ZZZA. Families with a disabled child may have an adapted property that has a spare bedroom, but that spare bedroom may be needed for a carer to stay the night, or for a time when it is too disruptive for another child to share a room—that is a very crucial group of children. Disability comes in many forms. It is important that we reflect upon the nature of disability and how that might impact upon particular groups of children. I ask my noble friend the Minister to look at the issue of what having disabled children actually means in terms of the nature of their disability. It could mean not just that a family needs a carer, or equipment or a spare bedroom; it could be that the nature of the disability is such that disruption affects another child in the family in a way that they require a separate room.
The impact assessment carried out by the DWP says that for claimants themselves, or their partners, a bedroom for a carer who provides overnight support will,
“be taken into account in determining the relevant size criteria”.
I wonder whether there has been an error, because it seems very strange to me that the same provision does not apply to claimants’ children. I hope that the Minister can reflect that it is not just the claimants, but claimants’ children, who are important when it comes to disability. Many families with disabled children will have expensive adaptations to their homes. Forcing families with a disabled child to move from an adapted property—as we have already heard—in any field could be extremely expensive. As we know, disabled facilities grants often take a long time to organise. Forcing families with a disabled child to move could be very disruptive for both the child and their family.
The issue that the noble Earl talked about, which is the subject of another amendment in my name, Amendment 48D, is that of children in care for a short period. The noble Earl reflected carefully on an important group for whom the children’s home—that family connection—is still important. We need to avoid their home being taken away from underneath their feet. Parents whose children are in care for a short period will need to retain that spare bedroom to prevent additional barriers to their children being returned to them when the care period ends, for whatever reason. Where children are in short-term care, their parents will have that spare room as soon as their children are put into care when their children will not be living with them, but the room may be vacant for only a short period. It is impossible for anyone in the housing sector to second-guess when the child will be returned home, because the reason for them returning home will remain with the other agencies. It is important that we should not block that out and that it should not be treated as underoccupancy, because that will impact on those vulnerable children and their families who live in social housing at a time when they need intensive support to ensure that we do not encourage family breakdown.
Again, I wonder whether that is an unintended consequence of the Bill: that it will prevent families from having their children returned to them after they have been in care for a short period. It is not in the amendments, but the noble Earl talked about the fact that many children in longer-term care will also return home. The average length of time for longer-term care for children is only just over two years, so there is a wider group who are not reflected in this pair of amendments.
I also wanted to say a few words about foster carers. The danger is that this policy shift may force some foster carers to give up their roles, as well as discourage new foster carers from coming into the system. It will make it very difficult for social workers to place children in an emergency, which is what we need for many children. We have a national shortage of foster carers. About 10,000 are needed across the whole of the UK, and we need spare capacity in the system because many foster carers are short-term carers looking after some of the most vulnerable children, who are often children who have been abused.
I know that the Government do not collect data on the number of foster carers who live in social housing and that there is no breakdown of the number of foster carers claiming welfare benefits, but I am concerned that, because they do not have the figures, the Government do not understand the impact that this change may have on that group. If the Government have the figures, it would be useful to know them. I understand that they do not. The estimate is that about 2,000 foster carers will be affected. When we consider that we are short of 10,000 foster carers, we should not affect 2,000 in this way.
Lord German
My Lords, I was talking just before the break about the number of foster carers who will be affected by the proposal. We do not have the figures because the Government do not collect the right data, but the 2010 survey commissioned by the Fostering Network found that 6 per cent of all families lived in private or social housing. We know that the split between private and social is 32 per cent to 68 per cent. As there are roughly 45,000 foster families in the UK, if we take that figure, there would be approximately 2,700 fostering families in private and social housing and 1,836 in social housing, but those are extrapolation figures. I would be grateful if the Minister could assist us in that matter.
What is critical in this suite of amendments about children is that the Government do not jeopardise our caring for children with disabilities, and particularly our fostering system, by introducing measures that would penalise those groups of children. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell me that that is an unintended consequence, if people believe that we will impact on such groups of children. I hope that the Minister can assure us that those particularly vulnerable groups of children will not be affected by the Bill.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I, too, shall speak briefly to Amendment 40 and Amendment 41, which stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lord McKenzie. As has been said, Amendment 40 seeks to ensure that the restrictions on the size criteria for social housing cannot leave a foster carer unable to meet their rent. As has been suggested, as currently drafted, the social sector size criteria and related benefit cuts would hit foster carers who claim benefit. As has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Best, that is because foster children are not counted as part of the household. Therefore, any bedroom that they sleep in is defined as being empty and underoccupied. The Fostering Network has warned that the failure to exempt foster carers from the penalty could lead to a number of them leaving fostering altogether.
As was suggested by my noble friend Lady Hollis in her earlier question, it is indeed a necessity that to be accepted for fostering, carers are required to have spare rooms in their homes for such children. Indeed, if you look at any advertisements for foster parents, they say that a spare room to foster is necessary. In addition, it cannot just be any old room; it is expected that most foster children will have a room to themselves from the age of three upwards, as specified by the minimum standards issued by the Department for Education and Skills. That age is well below the underoccupation rules for birth children who live with their parents.
We all know that social housing can provide a stable, high-quality environment in which to care for children who, for whatever reason, cannot live with their birth families. I am sure that none of us would want to exclude the occupants of social housing from acting as foster carers. I cannot believe that the Government intend that foster carers should face the underoccupation penalty. It is fairly obvious what impact that that would have.
Foster carers can claim housing benefit for the housing needs of their families, but the ones that they look after are not taken into account, which would mean that, just as with any other family, the rooms would count as being underoccupied, despite the fact that children sleep in them, and the foster carers’ benefit could be reduced by 23 per cent for the use of two rooms or 13 per cent for the use of one room used by a foster child. Many foster carers look after two or more children, especially those carers who deal with emergency needs, when a whole family can arrive together, and the availability of not just one but two spare rooms is crucial.
Most foster carers do not receive financial compensation for housing costs at present. They receive allowances towards the care, which include household running costs but not housing per se. Last year, the Government changed the law to exclude foster children from housing benefit claims. The Minister will recall that he wrote that this is because fostering allowances are intended to cover all the costs of looking after a foster child, including housing them. However, that statement is inconsistent with official information about the purpose of fostering allowance. The minimum fostering allowances set by the Governments in Northern Ireland, Wales and England do not include housing costs. In any case, the levels for recommended minimum allowances are far too low to provide realistic compensation for housing costs.
In case it is thought that discretionary housing payments may be available, it is true that foster carers are entitled to apply, but even if this concession was awarded it would be only to a small minority. As other noble Lords have said, there is already a significant shortage of foster carers. If there was a penalty for keeping a room in order to foster, some experienced carers might have to quit altogether. This could have a significant impact, especially in major towns and cities and other areas where rents are particularly high. Accommodation is in short supply, yet the demand for such carers is great. As the noble Lord, Lord German, said, there are about 2,700 fostering families claiming housing benefit. One thing being asked for through the amendments is that the cost of permitting it would be more than offset by the cost involved in losing foster carers, with children therefore having to be kept in care.
It is very hard to overemphasise the value of the work done by foster carers. I should like to take a moment to talk about two families I know, who between them have had more than 120 children through their doors. They have mostly been children who either have difficulties or disabilities themselves, or whose birth families are, for whatever reason, unable to provide a home for them. They do not always arrive in a nice planned way. They can come in the middle of the night, after the death or illness of their only parent, as the result of an assault or, as in one case that one of these families dealt with, when one of the child’s parents had been murdered by the other. The need for a home in the middle of the night and a room for those children cannot be stressed too much. These families are ready to take someone in, often very distressed small children. It is something of which we all need to be aware.
The Local Government Association is particularly concerned that if the proposal should remain unamended, and therefore reduces the likelihood of fostering, as carers are forced to give it up to avoid the penalty, it will be local authorities who pick up the cost, at a time when we are already short of foster families. It is fairly obvious that particularly vulnerable children make up a large proportion of those who are placed in emergency or short-term care. Therefore, we hope that the amendment will get a very warm response.
Amendment 41, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord McKenzie, is there to assist the Minister. It would make an exemption for foster parents to prevent their being subject to any accusations of abuse. I do not believe that there is such abuse, but certain papers like to run scaremongering stories about benefit claimants living in mansions, while there are blogs that talk about people living in enormous eight-bedroom houses in Chelsea, paid for by housing benefit. I have yet to find one. Amendment 41 seeks to protect foster carers from any such accusation. It includes defining,
“the type of property reasonably required for a household which is providing or routinely provides foster care placements”.
So it is to try and help the noble Lord in a very simple way.
The guidelines for good fostering are that there must be a spare room, and that no child over the age of three should be asked to share a bedroom. That is what we would call a suitably sized property, so I very much hope that the Minister can respond positively on the issue of foster care.
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton
My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Best, especially on his amendment regarding the CLG criteria of one-plus-one bedroom. One thing that struck me is that we have not referred in this debate to people with fluctuating impairment who require overnight care but not on a regular basis. People with mental health problems, when they go into crisis, may need somebody to sleep in the bedroom next door for a month or two, and that is not necessarily counted as an overnight carer in considering criteria for an extra bedroom.
We should celebrate that 15,000 disabled people need overnight care in this country—that figure is given to us by the DWP. Has the Minister had discussions with the Department of Health about the implications of the changes to the housing and benefits extra bedroom situation for people with fluctuating impairments? Increasing numbers of disabled people are living at home in the community now, and that is to be celebrated, but many disabled people require the help of another human being in order for them to do that. Otherwise it is back to residential care and the old days of warehousing. This is another good reason to support the one-plus-one bedroom and if we cannot do that, then I certainly support all the exemptions that are called for in all the amendments.
Baroness Meacher
My Lords, I support all the amendments in this group, but I congratulate my noble friend Lord Best on his incredibly commonsense approach to this problem. It seems that allowing an extra bedroom would probably deal with most of the tragic exceptions that people have talked about—what a straightforward way to deal with those exceptions and normal life. I cannot think of any family that at some point does not badly need an extra room, and the case was so well put.
We talk about all the amendments individually, but what is so painfully obvious is that it is the combined impact of the changes in the Bill that are going to have such a devastating effect on so many people. It feels irrelevant to talk about ESA and people being reassessed and placed on to JSA, and therefore losing a section or part of their benefits, but the individuals at the front line are going to be hit by that, then they find their housing allowances upgraded in line with CPI, then they find that their housing allowances are pegged to the 30th percentile, then find that they have an extra room. Oh my God, their housing benefit will not cover the accommodation they are in and they are going to have to think about moving.
It is the impact of so many hits that feels petrifying, and perhaps the change that frightens me more than any is the pegging of housing allowances to CPI. If that goes on longer than two years—perhaps we do not pay too much attention to it because we assume that it will not—we are talking about families and households finding every few years that they have a growing gap between their rent and the allowances they are paid for housing. They will have to move, and move, and move—is that not correct?—over a period of time, into ever more distant areas, ever meaner properties, ever smaller properties. It is difficult to imagine the psychological impact on households of all these changes.
I do not know who devised this law, but I wonder whether whoever it was stood back and thought about all that. I know, and the Minister has mentioned many times, that the driving motivation behind the reforms is to provide an incentive for people to move into work. From where I come from, dealing with people with mental health problems, one thing that stands between them and work is their level of stress and distress and anxiety.
It strikes me that if all the legislative changes go through, we will create an even bigger gap between very large numbers of people who are prone to anxiety and depression—if not psychosis and other things that are even more problematic to deal with—and the labour market. That troubles me, because I respect the Minister’s commitment to providing an incentive for people to go back into work. I also know that he is very sympathetic and understanding about mental health problems. I would be interested to know what he has to say about the apparent contradiction in what the Government are trying to do.
Another aspect of this for people with mental health problems is that to force them to move away from wherever they are—probably away from the carers who might just about prop them up and allow them to survive and carry on—is the last thing we want. The underoccupation rule impacts even more, given the other provisions of the Bill. As I understand it, young people are going to be expected, in some circumstances, to share accommodation. There are an awful lot of people with mental health problems for whom this might be quite helpful. There are others for whom it might be a complete disaster. Indeed, let us not forget to mention the potential sharer. It might be quite difficult to share with some of our folk. We have to be sensitive to the impact, and the combined and compound impact.
I sympathise with the amendments that noble Lords have tabled about disabled people who have had adjustments to their homes, and those about looked-after children. Those are obvious and glaring problems. I would like to think that the Minister will think seriously about that, in the context that I know he very well understands.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, I speak very briefly in support of Amendment 35, to which I have my name, to endorse entirely the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Rix, in introducing this bank of amendments, and to support the other amendments that deal with disability particularly. In doing so I should declare my interest as vice-president of Mencap Wales. In fact, at the Mencap annual conference in Warwick on Saturday, there were people who asked specifically about these matters. They said, “They have taken away from us home ownership for people with long-term disabilities, and now they are going to start clobbering us on housing benefit, where people with disabilities may be in a particularly vulnerable position”. I should therefore like to ask the Minister, so that I can respond to people who raise these questions with me: do the Government still believe in home ownership for everybody, and if so, does that include people with long-term disabilities? If the Government, having taken away the previous scheme, are not going to put something in its place, surely that is a straight contradiction of what the party opposite has always put itself forward as believing in?
Secondly, with regard to people with disabilities and housing benefit—the amendments before us would make exceptions for them—I hope that the Minister will be able to spell out how he will ensure that they do not suffer. If the amendments are not acceptable, I hope that amendments will come forward from the Government on Report. If not, I hope that there will be an opportunity to vote on these matters to show exactly where each of us in each of our parties, including the coalition partners, stand on such a basic issue.
Baroness Hollins
I, too, support Amendment 35, as introduced by my noble friend Lord Rix. As we have already heard today, tidy laws are not always fair laws. I am concerned about some exceptional people whose needs cannot neatly be described and I hope that common sense will prevail.
I shall give the example of a young man with autism and learning disability, Theo. Since early childhood, Theo has loved and become very knowledgeable about cathedrals, churches and architecture. He is also a man with complex impairments and a history of behaviour which has challenged every shared setting he has lived in. With specialist advice from Housing Options, and support and endorsement from social services, his parents set up a safe and individualised housing and care package for him.
The Government’s view may now be that it has never been the intention that SMI would cover all a person’s housing liabilities, but Theo’s shared-ownership mortgage was offered precisely on the basis that it would cover the mortgaged part of his housing cost, as was DWP policy at the time. The past nine years of Theo’s life have been built on that. His home has provided the all-important stability that someone with autism needs; and his disabilities combine to make change much more disturbing than we would find it.
Theo has an interest-only mortgage, so the possibility of the acquisition of a valuable capital asset does not apply in his case. With careful management by his parents, he has been able to lead a happy life at a much lower cost to the public purse than the alternative arrangement of a secure hospital. However, the new FSA rules require mortgage-lenders to set aside more capital and to treat mortgages on shared-ownership properties as 100 per cent mortgages. The result is a sudden gap between the rate at which lenders have to lend—for example, 6 or 8 per cent —and what the new SMI rate, which I think is 3.63 per cent, will cover. In Theo’s case, this leads to a shortfall of £200 per month. You can imagine that the arrears are already quite high. A new mortgage would be at an even higher rate, but he would then have to find a 25 per cent deposit for his property. He does not have the money to negotiate another mortgage.
There has been quite a bit of publicity about the adverse effect of this reform on HOLD. Experienced housing experts say that fewer lenders are likely to want to deal with disabled applicants seeking this solution to support a non-institutional life.
Ageing parents of disabled adults have followed similar paths with the help of enlightened housing associations. Those parents have been making responsible arrangements in their own lifetime, hoping for some assurance of long-term stability and security for their child. Instead, Theo's parents now face the prospect of seeing Theo’s distress at being uprooted from his home and moved, probably, to an inappropriate and less sensitive institution, which will be much more costly.
As the noble Lord, Lord Rix, pointed out, there are probably about 1,000 customers with learning disabilities—0.4 per cent, I understand, of the total caseload looked at by the impact assessment. Some of those administering HOLD have suggested ways in which the cost of continuing higher-rate payments for this group of disabled people could be contained, but it would require acceptance that there are indeed exceptions to the rule.
Since the Poor Law 1601, society has tried to tidy away people whose needs do not fit present-day norms, but in today’s more enlightened society we have made huge strides towards creating an inclusive society in which every person's humanity and dignity are respected and in which they have a place regardless of the extent of the difference that the person presents. However, these gains are quite fragile and we need look no further than Winterbourne View to be reminded of the previous scandals in mental handicap hospitals such as Ely and Normansfield in the late 1970s. Surely, we must now realise that without adequate advocacy and diligence we could again allow such inhumane provision to be re-created—people shunned by society and placed out of sight and out of mind at considerable expense but in the interests of tidiness. The test of a humane society is how it treats its most vulnerable members.
I had little awareness of the lives lived by some people with learning disabilities until I had a disabled child. My eyes were opened. I should like the Minister to consider using the Bill to reinstate SMI at the higher level for people such as Theo, which would allow them the opportunity to live with dignity in their own homes.
Lord Boswell of Aynho
My Lords, I rise briefly and somewhat diffidently because I did not have the privilege of hearing some of the earlier exchanges, as I had other obligations at that time. However, I have been listening to the later stages of the debate and before I add one comment to it I want to make it clear that in no sense am I derogatory of the very real problems that disabled people face—and those faced by other people of particular categories, including foster carers and others. Indeed, a good deal of my trade, time, interest and passion in my previous vocation as a Member of the other place was directed towards these issues. Of course they matter, and the people who are experiencing them matter. They have complex and difficult needs.
At the same time, it is worth putting down a marker. My remarks are prompted by those of the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, about the cumulative effect. Of course, in a sense, I entirely agree with her point about the cumulative effect of changes, but I am afraid that the argument runs both ways. If the effect is cumulative and poses difficulties for the individual, a cumulative set of concessions or changes to the package that the Minister is presenting to us also has implications for public expenditure. In our debates last week on disabled children, I made the point that I regarded their overall position as being one of particular pressure that required the Minister’s attention and the maximum degree of flexibility. While I do not for a moment resile from the arguments that have been put with great passion by noble Lords on the range of difficulties, we will not be able to meet all those requirements within the equal requirement that the Minister and the Government have for economies in public expenditure—and with the commitments that have been undertaken to secure the prize of universal credit.
What we must do—and I will certainly want to listen to the Minister’s answer on this—is ensure that we understand the implications, and that is why debate is so important. We should be prepared to make changes where the shoe pinch is particularly hard or where the interaction that the noble Baroness referred to may have taken place. However, we will not be able to solve all the problems of all the client groups, however good our intentions are, without making it impossible for the Bill to survive and be sustainable. The Minister has to answer in that vein, and I hope that he does so.
Baroness Wilkins
My Lords, further to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, I ask him whether it is fair that this group of people should be asked to pay for the country’s deficit. It seems to fall particularly hard on this vulnerable group of people.
I support the solution of noble Lord, Lord Best, in these amendments and, if not, I support all the exemptions that have been spoken about, particularly those in relation to disabled people. It is very hard for non-disabled people to recognise how important our homes are to us, particularly when you can get into few others. The way that our homes are configured and designed means that they either enable us to live independent, contributing lives or completely disable us. The two steps that were in my house, as they are in every other house in my street, would completely have disabled me had they not been removed. They would have meant that I needed help from someone else to wash or to provide my food. I would not even have been able to answer my front door to take in a parcel from a neighbour. They would have removed any ability for me to contribute to my community.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, the Government will have to recognise the anxieties that lie behind the bulk of amendments in this group. I want to take a step back and take a slightly longer view. Whether they should be in this group or not, there are three clause stand part amendments, one of which relates to this clause, in the name of my noble friend Lord Kennedy of Southwark; the other two are for later clauses and stand in my name. Clause stand part amendments are either a subtle probing amendment or a blunderbuss, depending on your point of view, but they are a request for the Government to think again.
I am prepared to accept that the Government do not intend by the provisions to place a disproportionate burden on the disabled or to leave foster parents out of consideration. They have three aims: the big one, on which we all agree, is to rationalise the whole system of welfare, eventually into a system of universal credit; the second is to save money; the third, which has been less referred to, is to reflect how to deal with a severe shortage of housing in general. The reason why we have the provisions, much of which we have been debating during the past hour, on how to move people to more appropriate—or, in some cases, less appropriate—accommodation is because there is such a squeeze on social housing, in particular, but also on other forms of housing to which housing benefit makes a contribution. That is a housing policy issue, and is in a sense also being dealt with in parallel in the Localism Bill, where some measures would reinforce the direction of this Bill, some positively and some negatively, but some move in a different direction. In that context, particularly in relation to changes in security of tenure, it would actually make some of these problems considerably worse.
The clause stand part amendment and another group of amendments that I have in a later group, which I fear that I will probably not be here to debate if we reach them tonight, are intended to ask the Government to think again. We all want the housing costs element eventually to be included within universal credit, but there are huge complexities in the housing cost element. The Government have attempted to address them, but they make the administration somewhat worse and more complicated by moving housing benefit away from administration of local authorities, separating the council tax benefit from the housing benefit proper and in a different context putting maximum figures on housing benefit and provisions in the Localism Bill that relate to affordable rents and caps on rents in social housing.
There is a whole nexus of issues which are essentially housing policy issues, and they reflect the very serious shortage of housing in all forms of tenure, whether we are talking about owner occupation and availability of a mortgage for first-time buyers, the private rented sector or the social housing sector. If we are to move a housing cost element into the universal credit, a lot of those issues—or at least the direction of travel on all those issues—need to have been established first. I am aware that the Government intend to make a statement on housing in the next couple of months, basically led by the CLG end. Whether it will be definitive or not I am not clear, but until we have some clarity about how we are dealing with future subsidy for housing, whether on the supply or on the demand side through housing benefit, as well as future changes in tenure and tenure law, which will affect the supply and flexibility of people moving to appropriate accommodation, it is difficult to construct exactly how the housing costs element will look.
My suggestion in my subsequent group of amendments is that we should be prepared to take a longer run at the housing costs element than in the rest of the rationalisation of the programme. The Government should at least give themselves the option of doing that, because otherwise they are going to flounder on detailed but vitally important aspects of housing benefit and housing tenure, which affect lots of different interest groups in different ways and which will slow them down in attaining their goal of universal credit.
I do not want to say any more tonight on that, although I may well return to it at a later stage. The whole of the discussion in the last hour and a half shows how complicated changing housing benefit and housing rules are, whether looked at through the prism of welfare reform or of housing policy. The Government in the timetable that they have set themselves for the legislation and the implementation seem to be biting off more than they can effectively chew. I hope that the Government see this and do not slow down the design of the universal credit system but take the time in a parallel track to look at how housing policy as a whole—the supply as well as the demand side—is addressed, and then start to construct a housing cost element relating to the housing market and the different forms of tenure as a whole. If they do not do that, I fear that they will fall flat on their face, and I do not want that because I agree with the ultimate objective. But the housing side of it is far too complex, and some of the discussions that we have had in the past hour and a half indicate how complex it is and how emotive it can be and how the Government can find themselves in all sorts of trouble, which will slow down their ultimate objective. I pass that to the Minister as a suggestion, but it is one that at some point the Government need to take seriously.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, I am sure that the Minister will be keen to reassure the Committee about the concerns raised, and I know that the Committee will want to hear those reassurances, so I shall be as brief as I can, but I am prompted by the eloquent speeches of the noble Lord, Lord German, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter—particularly the case histories that she presented—to think in particular of large sibling groups of children taken into care. We are often talking about large families, dysfunctional families, where the parent has a child who is taken away, then another child who is taken away and then another child who is taken away. It is often very important for those children that they stay together with their brothers and sisters. Of course that means that some foster carers need to have many rooms to provide that capacity. In the past, we have failed those children. It has been inconvenient to keep them together, so they have been separated.
I think of one now middle-aged woman who was separated from her five brothers and sisters when she was in care. She was so profoundly troubled by her experience that she set up a charity, Siblings Together, and now organises holiday schemes so that young children in care can spend at least their holidays together with their siblings. If they lose their parents, at least let them keep their brothers and sisters.
I do not want to pull too hard on the heartstrings, and I know that the Minister has met the Fostering Network. He has already provided reassurance on several of its concerns, so I am sure that he will be as helpful as he can on this issue as well, but I omitted to raise this earlier and I wanted to raise it with him before he replied.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, it is with some trepidation that I speak in this debate having released, in the terms of the noble Lord, Lord Best, the battery of Baronesses from this side of the Committee. I am not sure that I am not better suited to sitting on the hill at a safe distance and watching all this from afar.
However, these are hugely important issues. One thing seems abundantly clear on the basis of this debate and the previous one: what is in the Bill simply cannot stand. We recognise the issue of underoccupation. As the noble Lord, Lord Best, said, part of that is dealt with by definition: the extra bedroom in itself is part of the solution. My noble friend Lord Whitty just made a powerful contribution about the need to look at this in the context of housing policy more generally: the provision of a range of new accommodation and the range of tenancies that we have. To use the mechanism of housing benefit as the sole lever to try to deal with the problem seems fundamentally flawed.
There seems to be an assumption behind that approach that someone who finds themselves in a position of underoccupation, as defined, is somehow doing it to cheat the state, to grab more from housing benefit that they might be entitled to. The reasons that people end up in an underoccupying position are varied. It could be that the kids are leaving home to go to university; it could be that a member of the household has undertaken the instructions of the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, and got on their bike to find a job somewhere else; there could have been a death in the family. All sorts of reasons may underpin why people find themselves underoccupied, and I am not sure that that is reflected in the provisions.
I must stop agreeing with the noble Lord, Lord Best, but I agree that underoccupation is more of an issue among elderly people. I remember people from the patch that I represented on the council. One elderly woman occupied alone the three-bedroom house that she had occupied since she started a family. That is where her memories were. She could not get up the stairs and used to sleep in the front room. That is not a satisfactory outcome to her life or, indeed, to the use of housing stock. Means of dealing with that, such as local authorities having a scheme whereby they can help people to move by dealing with the practical issues of carpets, curtains, utilities and so on, would relieve some of the risks and tensions associated with moving house.
Lord Freud
My Lords, this has been a very good debate. I am not saying I have welcomed anything anyone has said, but I am saying the quality of the debate has been very high. I thank noble Lords for the great expertise they have brought to these issues. In response to the request of my noble friend Lord Kirkwood and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, I shall try to answer on each of these amendments and justify the idea that we can group them and get the right answers through. I am grateful for the indulgence of Committee members in allowing some big groups to come through, which should help us, but I aim to answer all of these issues.
To go back to the essential core point, housing support is a critical element of universal credit. It will help people pay their housing costs and help prevent homelessness. It will recognise that people need support across a range of different tenure types whether they live in the private rented sector, the social sector or whether they are owner occupiers. However, to repeat the point I made earlier, it also needs to be affordable to the taxpayer. My noble friend Lord German made the point about the increases in pure cash terms—it is up from £11 billion to £22 billion in a decade, which is 40 per cent in real terms—and that rise was going to continue if we did nothing.
The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked why is it this community that is taking the £2 billion saving we are looking at. I remind Committee Members that the way we are designing many of these particular housing reductions is not directed wholly or even mostly at tenants. Clearly, we are looking for landlords to take the strain in the private sector—I am on record as saying that—although we expect other responses in the social area which I have gone through.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I quoted the figure of £2 billion. I thought that figure was for several years and related to these underoccupancy provisions. Is that right or is it a broader range?
Lord Freud
No, the figure of £2 billion applies to the total saving by the end of the period in 2015 of all the benefit changes, and the particular change here is £0.5 billion per annum on the social sector from 2013-14.
Tackling housing benefit expenditure is vital to our combined efforts to reduce the economic deficit. The measures within Clause 68 will help to deliver significant savings affecting housing benefit claims for those living in both the private and social rented sector. Clause 11 will allow us to carry these measures through into universal credit.
Starting with Amendment 36 from my noble friend Lord Kirkwood and the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, I confess that it surprises me because it appears to call for a return to something akin to the local reference rent. This was a system that was difficult for claimants to understand, led to delays as individual rent officer determinations were sought, and it was expensive. It needed an army of rent officers to carry out these case-specific determinations. It is not a system that I would willingly go back to. This amendment would also maintain the status quo for housing benefit in the social rented sector, ignoring a property size in relation to the size of the household. As I have set out, we must take control of housing benefit expenditure across both sectors, but this amendment would do neither. In fact, it would increase costs.
I turn to my noble friend’s point on CPI. We will discuss this in more detail in a later group. The CPI uprating will apply across the spending review period, and if it becomes apparent that LHA rates and rents are moving out of step, they can be reconsidered at that point.
Amendments 38 and 79 would exclude anyone from this measure who is disabled and lives in adapted accommodation. Unlike Amendment 48 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, this exemption would apply regardless of the extent of the adaptations that have been made. It would also exempt anyone in accommodation who is “particularly suited” to the needs of that person. These are extremely broad categories. We have already heard in some detail the issues surrounding claimants living in adapted and specially suited accommodation. The terms of the exemption suggested in these amendments are simply too broad brush. However, as I said in relation to Amendment 48, I want to return to this matter once we have considered it further.
Amendments 43 and 83 also touch on similar issues to those discussed in relation to Amendment 48. They would exempt claimants where there is no suitable alternative accommodation, which is classified in the amendment as social rented housing that is also within the claimant’s locality. We cannot contemplate such a wide-ranging exemption. It would be costly to administer and would no doubt apply to those who would, in fact, have paid the shortfall regardless.
On Amendments 39 and 80, we estimate that around 200,000 claimants, where only they or their partner receive disability living allowance, will potentially be affected by the size criteria measure. However, this figure does not include other members of the household such as children and non-dependants. An exemption is simply not affordable and may well include many cases for whom an exemption would not be necessary, while missing out other hard cases. To provide a blanket exemption where claimants and partners receive DLA would lead to a reduction in savings of approximately between £130 million and £140 million in 2013-14, and this amendment goes further even than that.
Amendment 48C and the peculiarly titled Amendment 86ZZZA would exclude all households where there is a disabled child and again reduce the savings significantly and provide too broad an exemption. In response to the point made by my noble friend Lord German about exemptions for people who require an extra room as a result of a medical condition, we are looking at ways to potentially limit the impact of these changes in a way that is effective and affordable. The most appropriate course of action for the tenant and landlord in such cases will vary, depending on the individual circumstances of the claimant and his or her household. They may choose, for example, to apply for a discretionary housing payment.
As for the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, on fluctuating health conditions, local authorities can and do use discretionary housing payments for precisely that purpose. I can inform her that we have worked with the Department of Health on the extra room for a non-resident carer, which will cover that point in the guidance we issue to local authorities.
Amendments 40, 41 and 81 are relevant to foster carers. Within universal credit, our intention is to ignore any fostering income and therefore not to include any foster children within the assessment unit. To do otherwise, by treating the child as a family member and the fostering allowance as income, could result in the family being considerably worse off, and as such act as a deterrent to fostering.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, perhaps I may press the Minister on that key point. He has quoted a figure of £500 million for HB savings. The impact analysis that I think most of us were working off gave a figure of £700 million. If that figure is correct—it may have been overtaken by further refinement from the DWP—it would mean that, for less than half the cost of the savings, he would take some 80 per cent of those worst affected out of the equation. That seems to be very good value.
Lord Freud
My Lords, without us rambling through the papers, I think that the figure is £500 million, of which £300 million is a very substantial proportion.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel)
My Lords, a Division has been called in the House. The Committee stands adjourned for 10 minutes.
Lord Freud
My Lords, perhaps I may conclude on the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis. The confusion is between the £0.5 billion that we start to save annually in 2013-14 and the £770 million figure that she quoted from the impact assessment. It represents two years of savings on a GB basis, which is appropriately discounted and deflated.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, it is nice of the Minister to give us those figures, but is his £300 million the amount set off against the £500 million, or is it set off against the £770 million?
Lord Freud
No, it is £300 million set against £500 million—so 60 per cent.
I have already talked about the behavioural responses. I move to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rix, about the number of bedrooms, the size of the rooms and box rooms. Again, we discussed that issue briefly in the previous set of amendments when the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, raised the window tax. It is the social landlord’s responsibility to specify the number of bedrooms in a property but, as I said, we are looking at this, including the size of the bedrooms, to explore whether it is an issue.
Amendment 35 of the noble Lord, Lord Rix, relates to support for mortgage interest payments and is connected with Schedule 4, concerning the payment of housing costs for pensioners. I understand only too well why noble Lords are seeking reassurance that assistance with eligible mortgage interest costs will continue to be provided for homeowners, including those with long-term disabilities. In fact, I met only yesterday representatives from Mencap to discuss these matters.
Approximately 430 claimants have purchased their properties through the shared ownership scheme known as HOLD—rather less than the 1,000 figure that has more generally been quoted. The Government want disabled people to continue to access suitably adapted homes, whether through a mortgage or housing benefit. The Homes and Communities Agency continues to support the provision of shared-ownership homes where this is a local priority, including shared-ownership homes under HOLD. The agency is holding ongoing discussions with lenders on the provision of mortgages for HOLD. Support for mortgage interest is intended to provide a reasonable level of help for homeowners but has never been intended to cover all of a person’s housing liabilities. As noble Lords can see from the draft regulations, help will continue for homeowners. So I see no need to set out in the Bill specific reference to mortgage interest payments. We propose to continue using the same standard mortgage interest rate for all claimants. As to Schedule 4, a housing credit element with broadly the same rules as housing benefit will be introduced into pension credit to ensure that low-income pensioners continue to receive help with their rent.
Regarding the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Best, on providing incentives for pensioners to move, our approach to this issue will, over the long term, help to ensure that people are in suitably sized accommodation before they become pensioners. Our expectation is that the proportion of pensioners needing to downsize will in future be lower than it is now. As several noble Lords mentioned, the Localism Bill includes measures specifically aimed at helping pensioners to downsize and will help to increase mobility in the social rented sector for this group.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
Could the Minister at some point, not necessarily today but in due course, set out the stats on the number of pensioners underoccupying and what his projection is of the time it will take for numbers to diminish?
Lord Freud
I would be happy to circulate the information to noble Lords.
On the social sector size criteria measure that we are introducing through Clause 68, we will use the time before its introduction in April 2013, as we are already doing, to explore fully the implications for claimants and landlords. We acknowledge that the impact will not be the same across all regions; we will work with stakeholders to look at those variations as we move towards implementation.
Let me repeat: I value these debates and hope that they continue on a constructive level as we move forward.
Baroness Wilkins
Could I just return to the issue of disabled people? I am delighted to hear that he is willing to think again about fostering, but I am very disappointed by his reaction in relation to disabled people and feel that he has failed to recognise their situation. He says that the amendments have been drawn too widely. Could I press him on what he would feel was acceptable?
Lord Freud
My Lords, I hope that I am indicating that we are looking very hard at what proposition we can bring forward later on in this process of considering this Bill to deal with that particular set of problems that noble Lords have raised. So I will have something to say later on in the process.
The Earl of Listowel
I am very grateful to the Minister for reassuring the Committee that he will think carefully about the treatment of foster carers. That is welcome. However, I have a strong concern about a number of issues in this area. I have two questions. I wonder if he could drop me a letter on this, if he cannot reply now. Those registered foster carers who may have one, two or possibly even three rooms vacant, who do not have foster children with them at the moment but are waiting for them, and because of that are not getting an allowance and are on benefit, are hit by that—it is a bad situation for them. So reassurance on their position would be good. I am grateful to him for his response with regard to those parents who have their children removed from them. I think he was saying that for a short period it would be acceptable to give those families where the child has been removed an exemption in certain circumstances. I feel very worried about those families, which are very dysfunctional by definition. To have one’s children taken away is a very serious situation, and to lose a child and then to have an extra room or two rooms and to be further hit—that does worry me. Reassurance on that point, what happens to them, would be welcome.
Lord Freud
I will repeat the two points. The first point is exactly the issue that we want to deal with and the one that the foster community is worried about—the voids area. That is something that we are aiming to address. My response to the second point was, and remains, that this is where we would expect discretionary housing payments to come into play. It is exactly the complex set of judgments that need to be made, and local authorities are best placed to make them.
Baroness Hollins
I apologise for this, but I think that the Minister said that the same mortgage rates would be applicable as for everybody else. From my understanding, in the example that I gave of Theo, the mortgage rates had changed from the previous preferential rates, leading to a gap in the costs of his housing that he cannot meet.
Lord Freud
I think that this is the same case where I spent time with the family, so I am reasonably familiar with it. There was never any preferential treatment within HOLD; it used the standard rates. What has happened is to some extent a bit of a breakdown in the financing market in this area, among other breakdowns, after the worst financial crisis that any of us has ever seen.
So we are looking at a dysfunctional mortgage market with huge deposits required. There was never any special provision here: they were using the standard provision. We pulled it down from a little over 6 per cent to, as the noble Lord correctly said, 3.63 per cent and, if we had used the formula pre-crisis, we would have gone down to a rate of 2.08 per cent, which would have left people in an even worse position. To some extent, by moving the way that we do this, we have been more generous than the previous formula, but we have not changed the goalposts in any way. The issue is whether the market revives naturally—I know that it is shut at the moment—or whether, frankly, we need to think again about what is the appropriate level of support and how it should be delivered.
Baroness Sherlock
May I press the Minister on one more point? I understood that his argument in response to the amendments up to Amendment 83 was that he could not accept such a broad exclusion because it would encompass people who would otherwise have paid the shortfall. That is probably the dead weight argument. I was in the Treasury. Dead weight is much loved as an argument by the Treasury and despised by pretty much everyone outside it. You can see that it makes perfect sense, if you are in the Treasury, to think, “You are already paying this, why on earth would I want to do it?”. If you are on the other end of the telescope, it looks rather different.
Does the Minister accept that the fact that a claimant may stay put and pay the difference does not necessarily mean that they can afford to pay it? That point was made by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. Someone who can see no alternative suitable accommodation may stay put, pay the difference—or at least accept that they must pay the difference and get into debt, with all the consequences that has for the family. Does the Minister accept that point and, if so, how will he address it?
Lord Freud
My Lords, it was interesting that there was a range of responses to our survey. Different people will do different things depending on the circumstances. That is the point. That is the problem with all the broadly defined exemptions that we have discussed today, which we have explored in great detail in the department: none of them works to define eloquently and adequately the people whom we want to protect. We need other ways to do that. I know that people like to attack the Treasury on every conceivable opportunity—
Baroness Sherlock
The Treasury employed me for many years; I would do no such thing.
Lord Freud
It did not sound like that.
Some people will choose to pay £11 and £12 extra for an extra bedroom perfectly rationally and other people will make other responses; a wide range of response is likely. A lot of people would regard it as a bargain to spend that amount on an extra bedroom. As noble Lords will be aware, spending to get that extra accommodation in the outside world—whether through a mortgage or through renting—would cost a lot more.
Baroness Sherlock
Forgive me, in the interests of levity, I was not being clear enough. The people I am concerned about are not those who could afford it but declined to stay, or those who are staying put and are happy to pay the money. The Minister mentioned statistics earlier about the number of people who would move, downsize or stay put and pay the difference. I am concerned about the rump who remain, which I think is sizeable—perhaps he will remind us of the percentage. I tease him about dead weight only because that argument works only if the Government are willing to accept that the price is borne by those who are not capable of making the difference. I am trying to tease out exactly how big is that price, who is paying it and what price the Minister would regard as acceptable for people who are forced into debt in order to make it work for everyone else.
Lord Freud
My Lords, I said earlier that we are working on the detailed implementation of this. It would be premature to make judgments on that. We need to develop strategies to ensure that those problems do not arise.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
In that case, can I ask the Minister to amplify his stats for us when he writes to us next? He has talked several times, over the few Committee days we have had, about a £60 million discretionary housing fund, and how it is going up threefold, and so on. I am not keeping a tight list, but I think we have now overspent that by approximately five times. Could he tell us—given that there are some 400 local authorities—even on a per capita basis, how it works out? On average an authority can only help 700 families, out of—for instance, in the Norwich situation—some 20,000-odd families that are in rented accommodation.
I believe that those people affected, who will not readily afford it, are probably more like 7,000 rather than 700. Could the Minister give us the assumptions, or the stats, behind that £60 million figure as to what this would mean in a typical local authority, per 1,000 rented homes, for a period of, say, six months, or what percentage of those families you could typically expect to support? So that, per 1,000, that £60 million would extend to 20 families for six months, or 50 families for six months. Then we can get some idea of how that money connects to all the various issues for which this will, apparently, be the solution.
Lord Freud
Yes. I always prefer to answer rather than write, but I think I will on this occasion go to paper. It may be that the noble Baroness prefers paper.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, I was grateful, as I said before, that the Minister is giving this issue of arrears careful consideration. I think it might be helpful to the Committee if he could provide some reassurance that by Report we will have considerably more detail on what the plight will be of those who face arrears under the new arrangement. Can he give any assurance on that point?
Lord Freud
By the time we get to this again, I will come back with that answer.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, I speak at the request of my noble friend Lord Rix, who has had to leave the Committee, because we have now been going for well over four hours. I think he anticipated that we would have finished before now, and he has had to go to a 7.30 pm engagement outside the House. He has asked me, as I have my name on the amendment that led this bank of amendments, if I could respond briefly.
In doing so, I will touch on three points. In reverse order, taking up the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis of Heigham, a moment ago, with regard to the cost implication of the discretionary payments that are to be made by local government, has an assurance been given by the devolved Administrations that they have the resources to be able to do this? We are dealing with a non-devolved subject but are looking to devolved authorities, from a devolved budget, to fund the counterbalancing money that is required. If that answer is not available now, perhaps there will be an opportunity at some later stage to deal with that. It is clearly a matter that will be of concern, not only to the devolved Administrations, but to local authorities in Wales and Scotland.
Lord Freud
I can answer the noble Lord pretty rapidly on that. This is not a devolved area, so the discretionary housing payments are not devolved.
Lord Wigley
Of course—that is the whole point. The housing benefit is not a devolved area, but local government money is, unless there is going to be payment made from Westminster sources—Whitehall sources—to the local authorities in Wales. From the indication I get, payments will be made directly to local authorities, or via the Assembly to local authorities. In which case, fair enough, if enough money is going to be there; but if it has to come from their general pools, then that is from a devolved budget and will cause them problems.
Lord Freud
All I can confirm is that, just as anywhere else in the country, in those Administrations, the money will go by formula to those local authorities, in the same way that it currently does.
Lord Wigley
I accept entirely, of course, that housing benefit is run by the local authorities as a non-devolved portfolio, coming under Whitehall. However, the general funds that they have, unless there is additional funding coming from Whitehall to those local authorities and bypassing the Assembly, it would otherwise come out of the Assembly budget. All I was asking was whether that had been agreed with either the Assembly, or in the case of Wales, the Welsh Local Government Association? The Minister might be able to confirm that.
Lord Freud
What I can confirm is that the DHPs go directly to the local authorities, not through the local Assemblies.
Lord Wigley
Therefore, will any additional resources for discretionary payments that will be made, in line with the numerous references to discretionary payments that we have heard over the past few days, go directly and be over and above the payments that will otherwise be made.
Lord Wigley
We can put a marker down on that clear answer, for which I am very grateful.
Secondly, on one of the banks of amendments that dealt with disability and tried to get exclusions for people in certain categories of disability, the Minister, if I recall rightly, said that it would cost far too much, possibly £180 million. If that is the cost of excluding disabled families from the provisions of the Bill, it is, equally, the additional cost being faced by disabled families as a consequence of the Bill. That is an enormous cost. If it is a large sum for the Treasury budget, how much larger a sum must it be for disabled people trying to find it from their own domestic budgets? That is something that I suspect we shall need to come back to for clarification on Report. I hope that will be possible. I do not expect the Minister to respond at this point.
My third point is in regard to Amendment 35 in my name and that of my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Rix, which concerns home ownership among people with long-term disabilities. The Minister mentioned that only 400 people were affected by this. I am sure he is not decrying the importance of the scheme for the 400 people that it has helped; every single one is important in its own right.
Lord Freud
My Lords, may I make that absolutely clear? There are 430 people currently on the HOLD scheme. The bulk of them have an arrangement with a mortgage provider, Kent Reliance, which means that they can continue to pay the required rate of 3.63 per cent. Therefore, only a handful of people on the HOLD scheme are affected by any change.
Lord Wigley
Yes indeed, those 430 may well be safeguarded but there is the question of whether other people, who might in the past have come on to that scheme, will not be able to do so in the future. More importantly, the Minister referred to having had a meeting yesterday with people from Mencap to discuss this. From having a brief word with the noble Lord, Lord Rix, before he left, I understand that the people at Mencap are hoping that the Minister will at some stage, if not today, come back with some provision that will cover the requirements of this important group of people who are being helped by the scheme. I do not know whether they misunderstood that or whether the Minister will look at it again before Report to see what can be done. However, I very much hope that he will take on board the serious points that have been made by the noble Baroness and others, including the noble Lord, Lord Rix, about this important group.
We have gone well beyond our time. I put it to noble Lords that we ought to consider whether this is the most sensible way of undertaking our responsibilities, when the Committee runs for more than four hours without a break, we have disabled colleagues here and there are disabled people who want to follow our proceedings. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, this may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until 2 pm on Thursday, 20 October.
House of Lords
Royal Assent
Visas: Domestic Workers
(13 years ago)
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Baroness Hamwee
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in bringing forward proposals to end the Domestic Workers visa, what consideration they have given to the protection of the rights of domestic workers.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)
My Lords, the rights of overseas domestic workers in private households are discussed in the Government’s consultation document, Employment related settlement: Tier 5 and overseas domestic workers. The consultation sets out a number of proposals for reform, which include making protections more appropriate should the route be retained. We are currently considering the responses that have been received.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, the Minister will understand that the portability of the current visa, which means a worker can change employer as long as he or she remains in domestic work, is fundamental to safeguarding the rights of that employee and to safeguard against bonded labour. He will appreciate that I refer to rights such as to be paid at least the national minimum wage, not to be forced to work excessive hours and so on. There are some horrific stories. On Anti-Slavery Day—and every day should be regarded as Anti-Slavery Day—will the Government take into account the need to be very mindful of the rights of all who work in our country?
Lord Henley
My Lords, my noble friend is right to raise this issue on Anti-Slavery Day, but she is also right to say that we should take account of these matters on every day of the week and obviously we will. Settlement has almost become automatic for those who wish to stay in the United Kingdom under these arrangements, and the consultation is about being more selective about those who wish to stay permanently while also, as my noble friend puts it, making sure their rights are safeguarded.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
May I ask the Minister whether the Government would reconsider the signing of the ILO convention on domestic workers?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I am not sure whether that is part of the consultation, but the consultation has been completed and we are considering the responses to it. I can give an assurance to the noble and learned Baroness that I will look at that, too, as part of that process.
Lord Pannick
My Lords, does the Minister agree with the conclusions of the Home Affairs Committee of the other place two years ago that,
“domestic workers are peculiarly vulnerable to abuse”,
and that,
“To retain the existing Migrant Domestic Workers visa and the protection it offers to workers is the single most important issue … in preventing the forced labour and trafficking of such workers”?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I accept what the noble Lord has to say about domestic workers being particularly open to abuse. That is why we want to get the right balance. However, I think the noble Lord would also agree that we need an immigration system that is fairer and more honest and commands public confidence. We want to get the right balance; that is what is behind the consultation and that is what we will be looking at in the responses.
Lord Lea of Crondall
My Lords, would the Minister say a little more about the complaints procedure whereby, when many of these workers who work under slave labour conditions—and that is the word that has to be used when you look at some of the horrendous things that go on—try to make a complaint, they can lose their status and so on. Could the Minister say a little more about how people can be safeguarded if they want to make a complaint?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I cannot say that at this stage because that is the point behind the consultation. We want to consider all the responses to that consultation. But what I tried to make clear earlier, and what I will repeat to the noble Lord, is that we want to make sure that we get the right balance by providing the appropriate safeguards while making sure that we have the right safeguards against unnecessary immigration.
Lord Avebury
My Lords, in the letter from the Minister for Immigration, following a meeting we had with him on 6 September, he referred in some detail to the protection afforded to domestic workers by the national referral mechanism, which applies only to those who are trafficked and not to those who are admitted under the domestic resident worker visas. If these arrangements are terminated, as we discussed in Committee, would that not encourage rich employers to bring in their servants as visitors, as many of them already do? Would my noble friend confirm that the national referral mechanism would not be available to them or to servants in diplomatic households, who still normally come from the diplomat’s country of origin?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I believe that my noble kinsman has had a meeting with my predecessor, my noble friend Lady Browning, on this matter, and I believe that there have also been a number of meetings with my colleague the Minister for Immigration, Mr Damian Green. These matters have been discussed, but I repeat what I said earlier. This is a matter for consultation; we will want to consider these matters and come forward with the appropriate solution, which in the end will be a balance.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, it is clear from the exchange of views today that what we are talking about here is tackling modern slavery. That is precisely why this question was raised today. The Minister says that the Government are looking at the granting of domestic worker visas in order to safeguard against unnecessary immigration. That is a very good thing. However, I understand that in 2009 only 795 migrant domestic workers were granted settlement. I would be grateful if the Minister could tell me how many of those originally entered the UK on the “Domestic Worker (Visitor)”, the “Domestic Worker (Other)”, and the “Domestic Worker (Diplomat)” visa.
Lord Henley
My Lords, on the more detailed points that the noble Baroness raised at the end, I will obviously have to write to her, but I think she is wrong to assume that all incoming domestic workers are being treated as slaves. They do have protections: they have the protection of the National Minimum Wage Act and all other appropriate protection. But we recognise that there is abuse here. What I am trying to talk about is getting the right sort of balance so that we can have a fair and proper immigration system—something that I have to say the party opposite failed to address in all their years in power—and have the appropriate protection for those workers who are being abused.
Biodiesel
(13 years ago)
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Lord Palmer
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they plan to support the use in the United Kingdom of sustainable biodiesel produced from waste products, such as used cooking oil, beyond April 2012.
Lord Palmer
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and, in so doing, declare that I am the unpaid president of the transport division of the Renewable Energy Association.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, in a recent consultation on the renewable energy directive, we proposed amendments to the renewable transport fuels obligation. These proposals included providing twice the financial support to waste-derived biofuels as will be provided to conventional biofuels through the award of two renewable transport certificates per litre of waste-derived fuel. Crop-derived biofuels will continue to receive one certificate per litre and biofuels that do not meet the required sustainability standards will receive no support.
Lord Palmer
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that lengthy reply. This is a very complex issue. I know for a fact that if the 20p per litre rebate is abolished, an enormous number of current users will revert to fossil fuels. Is this what the Government really want?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, Treasury Ministers confirmed at the 2011 Budget that the duty differential for biodiesel produced from used cooking oil will end on 31 March 2012, as was always intended. It is appropriate that support for waste-derived biofuels in transport will be provided through double rewards as part of the renewable transport fuels obligation. That, of course, has a sharper sustainability focus. By providing two renewable transport certificates per litre of waste-derived fuel, the UK is moving away from the guaranteed return of 20p provided by the duty differential for biodiesel produced from used cooking oil and moving towards an environment where the competitive market decides the price that will be awarded for each renewable transport fuel certificate. But each RTFC will still be worth around 20p.
Lord Bradshaw
Will the noble Earl turn his mind to the fact that the renewable transport fuel certificates, to which he has referred, are tradable assets? They have been often been of no value at all. Anyone investing money in this young industry of processing used cooking oil and other waste products face the possibility that they are being asked to invest money with no guarantee of a return whatever.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. RTFCs were traded at a nil value but that was because of an error in the drafting of the original RTFO by the previous Government. That problem has been rectified and will not recur.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the Minister is reading his brief excellently today to the great advantage of the House. I appreciate the fact that this Question probably should be directed rather more at Her Majesty’s Treasury than the Department for Transport. But the noble Earl failed to answer the crucial point made by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer. What is the Government’s response to the clear signal that many companies which are benefiting from this position at present and are pursuing the policies, which we would all endorse with regard to this sustainable fuel, are indicating that they will drop out from this position and return to fossil fuels unless the Government take a different view?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I answer for Her Majesty's Government and not for any particular department. This policy is following the perfectly sensible trajectory set by the previous Government.
The Duke of Montrose
My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister say whether tallow is currently processed in such a way as to qualify as a FAME biofuel? Is it in use as a transport fuel or can it be seen as such?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, there is a difficulty with tallow because it can have unintended consequences. Tallow is also used to make soap. If we reduce the supply of tallow for making soap, palm oil will be substituted. That can have sustainability issues because the increased use of palm oil will result in deforestation.
The Lord Bishop of Blackburn
In the northern and very rural part of my diocese of Blackburn, the very high cost of diesel and fuel is inhibiting the stimulus to economic recovery. Will the noble Earl tell us what plans Her Majesty's Government have for helping such communities, especially in the light of the modest reduction in global oil prices?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I fully appreciate the impact of very high fuel prices—I buy a considerable amount of fuel myself—but it is a little wide of this particular issue.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
My Lords, will the Minister explain to the House, for my benefit, as well as everybody else’s, what exactly his answer to my noble friend was, because I do not understand it?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, perhaps I will run over it again. The answer is that there is plenty of incentive from the issue of the renewable transport fuel certificate to suppliers to continue to supply biodiesel into the market. It is just a different way of achieving the same policy and complying with the renewable energy directive.
Lord Soley
There is a deeply worrying lack of clarity about the Government’s policy and, as the noble Earl claims to be answering for the Government now, rather than just the Department for Transport, it would help to have a bit more clarity. I would like to hear the Government’s view on the use of algae as a sustainable fuel. Research is very advanced in other countries and this country would be well placed to pursue it, yet he has not even mentioned it. Could we have a more detailed answer, even if it has to go in the Library at a later date?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned algae. I am afraid I was not aware of that possibility. However, suppliers could use that technology if they wanted to. The incentive scheme is not specific about what feedstock is being used. They can use whatever they want. If they can make algae work in a competitive environment, that is fine.
Legal Aid
(13 years ago)
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Baroness Benjamin
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will consider allowing more regular payments to legal aid practitioners in care and domestic violence proceedings involving vulnerable families where children’s well-being may be adversely affected.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, the Legal Services Commission is responsible for the administration of the Legal Aid Fund and has already taken steps to regulate and accelerate payments to legal aid providers. Standard monthly payments are made in advance for advice work completed under contract and, in addition, weekly payments are made on bills submitted for civil representation work. Providers may make interim claims for payments on account while a case is still open.
Baroness Benjamin
I thank my noble friend for that encouraging Answer. As you may well know, these specialist solicitors are not only the lowest paid solicitors in the country but also have to pay tax on unpaid work and are paid by the Government only twice-yearly in arrears. As a result, their businesses are under enormous financial pressure. Some are even going out of business because banks are calling in their loans. This is likely to result in the loss of assistance to the neediest families in our community, especially children. How soon will quarterly payments be implemented?
Lord McNally
My Lords, I can not give a precise answer to that, but the LSC has taken a number of steps to expedite payments to contracted providers and is committed to investigating any claim where a bill is not paid within the correct timescale. While there have recently been some delays in civil bill processing, the LSC maintains that the vast majority of payments are being made within their published target times. I will, however, look at the matter of quarterly payments.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
Is my noble friend aware that the Law Society has had to write to banks, asking them to treat legal aid practitioners with special care, because of a backlog in payments by the Legal Services Commission, and is his response—that they are all paid on time—not a little disingenuous? Is there not a very considerable backlog at the moment?
Lord McNally
My Lords, I did not say that they were all being paid on time, but I did say that the Legal Services Commission is addressing the problem that has arisen. A backlog had built up and the commission faced criticism, but it has addressed the problem and is moving to cut the backlog. So I am not being disingenuous in any way. I am acknowledging that there has been a problem, which the commission is addressing. It maintains that the vast majority of payments are being made within their published target times.
Lord Bach
My Lords, the Question tabled by the noble Baroness is about legal aid practitioners in the field of domestic violence. Based on the incredibly restrictive definition of domestic violence set out in the legal aid Bill currently going through another place, how do the Government propose to protect women who are at risk of domestic violence for the first time?
Lord McNally
My Lords, we will eventually discuss the various scopes in the legal aid Bill. The Government are satisfied with the scopes they have set in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill and believe that they cover the most vulnerable in family and domestic law. But I freely admit that we are going to have some interesting debates on the matter. I hope that that helps the noble Lord. The debate has yet to come to this House.
Lord Elton
My Lords, the noble Lord has referred on a number of occasions to the “target time”. Can he give us the definition of that?
Lord McNally
The target time is, I believe, two weeks for the settlement of accounts.
Egypt
(13 years ago)
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Baroness Berridge
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the increasing problems for the Coptic community in Egypt.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary issued a statement on 10 October expressing his profound concern over the violence in Cairo on 9 October. He urged all Egyptians to,
“refrain from violence and support the Egyptian Prime Minister’s call for calm”,
and “all sides” to,
“engage in dialogue. The freedom of religious belief … needs to be protected … The ability to worship in peace is a vital component of any … democratic society”.
Baroness Berridge
I thank my noble friend for his thoughtful and comprehensive reply. I hope he will agree that Egypt is to be commended on its successful application of the rule of law to former President Mubarak, who is currently being prosecuted for ordering the killing of protesters in the January revolution. While Her Majesty’s Government would not wish to interfere in Egypt’s internal affairs, is the Minister satisfied that a military investigation into military actions on 9 October will also result in the successful application of the rule of law to those who ordered the killing of peaceful Coptic protesters?
Lord Howell of Guildford
There is no room for satisfaction either in our own minds or, as I understand it, in the minds of the Egyptian Government. A government commission has been appointed to examine the situation, but on 12 October my right honourable friend had a detailed conversation with Mr Amr, the Egyptian Foreign Minister, during which he urged him most strongly to establish the facts and, in the words of the Egyptians, to see what went wrong. There are several different versions of what occurred, but the clear result is that many people died. This kind of violence is completely unacceptable. As my noble friend will know, we have a very close dialogue with Egypt at the moment. We are involved in a helpful and supportive way—not interfering but encouraging and supporting the de-escalation of the situation, the restoration of law and order, the call for civilians not to be tried in military courts and the removal of the state of emergency. The dialogue and the pressure are there, and I believe that the Egyptian Government realise that this kind of appalling event will greatly damage their future and must on all accounts be prevented and avoided.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, is the Minister aware of reports that judges in some Egyptian courts are refusing to accept evidence from Copts? Does he know if there is any truth in such reports? If he is not aware of them, would he be kind enough to make inquiries and write to me?
Lord Howell of Guildford
Assessing the truth of these reports is difficult, but one proposition that we have offered in support of the situation in Egypt is that civilians should not be tried in military courts. That is not quite the point that the noble Baroness made, but it is related. As for the question about their judgments, I will make further inquiries and see if I can illuminate my answer.
The Archbishop of Canterbury
Would the Minister agree that part of the underlying problem in the situation that we have seen unfolding recently is a prolonged failure on the part of the security forces to guarantee the safety of Christian personnel and property, not only in the Aswan province in recent months but over a longer period? It seems clear to many of us that this is bringing Muslims and Christians in Egypt together in great distress and anxiety about the dismantling of a long history of fruitful co-operation and coexistence in the country. As we have been reminded, a commission of inquiry has been promised by the Egyptian Administration. I hope that Her Majesty’s Government will continue to press contacts within that Government, not only on the objectivity and proper distance of that inquiry from the military establishment, but also for consideration in such an inquiry of the record of the security forces over this period.
Lord Howell of Guildford
We are all grateful to the most reverend Primate for his insights. He is absolutely right about the long history of these pressures and difficulties, as well as the recent evidence of a rising tone of extremism in the clashes that have occurred. I can only reassure him that the dialogue is continuous and the pressure is on in my right honourable friend’s discussions with the Egyptian authorities. The understanding is established that this must be a clear and full inquiry into what really happened; that the control and policy of the security forces must be even-handed; and that there must be work towards a unified law. That means equal rights for all faiths and religions in the matters of building mosques and churches, and in the security forces protecting them from violence. The most reverend Primate is absolutely right: these are the aims that we will continue to pursue with great vigour.
Lord Alton of Liverpool
My Lords, will the Minister return to the question that the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, put to him earlier about these events at Maspero, where this terrible massacre occurred? Specifically, would he answer her point about the nature of the inquiry to be conducted? Would he agree that, contrary to some of the reports that suggested that this was a clash between equals, these civilians were gunned down, were unarmed, and were run over by vehicles all of which were owned by the Egyptian army? How can it be right that the army should now carry out the inquiry?
Lord Howell of Guildford
This is a perfectly serious and valid query and I recognise the interest of the noble Lord. We will pursue the matter of the nature of the inquiry. There is a swirl of different versions of what occurred. The propositions of some were that the army was not officially authorised to act, that it was supplied with blank bullets and that the shooting took place when other parties intervened. Others say exactly as the noble Lord has said. One has to get to the bottom of what occurred, and we will press very hard for the Egyptian authorities to do that. Certainly, the present situation has too many unreliable versions to be regarded as satisfactory. More truth must come out.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
My Lords, would my noble friend accept that there is no advantage to be gained by the military and the Islamists, the Muslim Brotherhood, getting together against Egypt’s Christian communities? Would he reflect on news reports that the military is now seeking to delay the presidential election until after a constituent assembly has been formed, perhaps pushing that back as far as late 2013? The best method of preserving Egypt’s diversity under the rule of law is for an early transition to democratic rule.
Lord Howell of Guildford
The Egyptian Foreign Minister, Mr Amr, told my right honourable friend that the lower house elections would go ahead in November and the presidential elections would be next year, possibly next summer. I agree totally with my noble friend that it is in nobody’s interests for these elections to be further delayed. We have made it absolutely clear to the Egyptian Ministers and authorities that the sooner we get forward with the sequence of the return to full democracy the better, and early presidential elections are very much part of that.
Lord Lea of Crondall
My Lords, we have a virtually insoluble dilemma about Britain in any sense directly addressing the question of rights on behalf of the Coptic Christians. The revolution is fairly recent, but let us look ahead to the reconstruction of Egypt, whether it is in relation to its infrastructure, investment, social policy, tourism or anything else. Is it not reasonable to visualise, as we have done with a number of countries, that the dialogue with Egypt—which would have to be carried out under the European Union because it cannot be accused of imperialism in the same sense as Britain can, but that is arguable—would have to include a wide range of social and religious freedoms and human rights questions? Would it be more useful for the British Government to help stimulate discussion fairly soon about the forum for dialogue so that the whole of Egyptian public opinion can be brought on board as part of that dialogue?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I think I see what the noble Lord is getting at. Certainly our support and help—I repeat, not interference with the affairs of the Egyptian nation—is geared to that kind of development. We are backing non-governmental organisations that are promoting think tanks and discussion groups to try to widen the political diversity, to support the role of women in the political process and to develop a number of other activities to support the evolution of sensible, balanced party politics. This is what we are seeking to do in addition to substantial aid through the Arab Partnership in various other social areas. The general thrust is, I think, in line with what the noble Lord was saying.
Lord Elton
My Lords, the persecution of Coptic Christians did not begin with the revolution. Can the noble Lord say that he will press for inquiries into unlawful killings that took place before the revolution—quite possibly at the same hands as those that took place after—to be pursued?
Lord Howell of Guildford
The noble Lord is quite right. Echoing what was said a moment ago, I say that this goes back into history and is, in a sense, not a new problem, although it assumed a horrific newness or novelty in the rise of extremist attacks and the involvement in an extreme way of the Salafists and other movements, in this case against the Christian and Coptic communities. We believe strongly that freedom of belief and worship by all faiths should be protected in every possible way. The need for inquiry into both past misdemeanours and past violence in order to understand the roots of the present violence is indeed extremely important.
Freedom of Information (Designation as Public Authorities) Order 2011
(13 years ago)
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Lord McNally
That the draft order laid before the House on 5 September be approved.
Relevant document: 28th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 17 October.
Live Music Bill [HL]
Education Bill
(13 years ago)
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17:48 - Division on Amendment 7 - Ayes: 171 / Noes: 244 - Amendment 7 disagreed.
19:08 - Division on Amendment 17 - Ayes: 138 / Noes: 170 - Amendment 17 disagreed.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I invite noble Lords to leave the Chamber quietly. The noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, is ready, willing and able to lead off on his Amendment 1.
Amendment 1
Lord Northbourne
“Foundation Stage
During a child’s first five years, both the father and the mother have a responsibility to do their best to provide or procure for their child the early education, including the personal, social and emotional development that child will need when they enter primary school at 5 years old.”
Lord Northbourne
My Lords, I apologise to the House as I did not hear the amendment being called. In Committee, I received strong support from all sides for my amendments on the importance of early years parenting. We all agreed that too many of the nation’s children today fail to get in their early years a foothold on the bottom rung of the education ladder. In her report published earlier this year, Dame Clare Tickell says:
“Parents and carers are the people who have the most important influence on children’s early development”.
She goes on to say that “clear and unambiguous evidence” shows that 44 per cent of children,
“are still not considered to have reached a good level of development by the end of the year in which they turn 5”.
The issue of how we improve school readiness is clearly important.
In his response to my amendments in Committee, the Minister suggested that my concerns were dealt with by Section 1 of the Childcare Act 2006. Having read it very closely, I find that the Childcare Act 2006 indeed sets out general duties on local authorities in relation to the well-being of children but it addresses the issue in terms of institutional childcare and nursery education. It makes no mention of the need to encourage, help and support parents who struggle to support their child with the start in life that it needs. The Act makes no mention of early years education in the home.
Looking at it in detail, Section 1 of the Act provides for free-of-charge provision of early childhood services. Section 2 defines the meaning of early childhood services and mentions parents only in that context. The rest of the Act makes it clear that the services referred to are institutional childcare services. They do not cover the role of parents and family members in the home. In my opinion—I say this with regret to the Minister—the Childcare Act 2006 is not a good basis for addressing the issue of the needs of parents, and indeed grandparents and family members, in their role as carers and educators of a young child.
The Government’s policy seems to be to deploy all available resources to the provision of out-of-family childcare and early education rather than supporting adequately parents in their efforts to educate in the home. As the noble Lord, Lord Peston, wisely said in his excellent intervention in Committee, the Government cannot take on the role of a parent.
Of course, institutional childcare has an important part to play but so do attachment, love, care, encouragement and education in the family. In the first two years of life, most children spend almost all their waking hours with a parent or surrogate parent. Even when they start to spend 15 hours a week in nursery school, they will probably spend the vast majority of their waking hours within their family. It is also important to remember that some families, often the most vulnerable, do not have any contact at all with institutional childcare services—often because they fear that if they did, social services might take their child away. In my view, there is the strongest possible case for working with and through parents, and through family structures, to help potentially disadvantaged children to develop emotionally and socially so that they are school-ready when they reach compulsory school age. The Childcare Act 2006 does not address these problems.
I turn now to Sarah Teather’s position paper Supporting Families in the Foundation Years, which unfortunately became available only after we dealt with these issues in Committee. Sarah Teather’s report is excellent and most welcome in many respects but it, too, fails to place sufficient emphasis on developing more and better in-family education in the early years. It does not give it anything like the same level of importance as it does to institutional care outside the family—I am sorry, my computer made a mistake and printed something in the wrong place.
The Government are making a mistake in this. I cannot see much hope in changing the policy by putting this matter to the vote during the Report stage, but I should be very grateful if the Minister would agree to meet me to discuss whether there is any possible way in which we could put more emphasis on in-family education as well as out-of-family education.
The three amendments which I have set down today move in the same direction as my earlier amendments but have much more modest objectives. Amendment 1 is about the very strong case for trying to reduce unwanted pregnancies, and to do that by making all parents, especially men, more aware of the obligations that they have to any child who they bring into the world. This is a matter not of outdated Victorian values but about what we believe is fair to the child. Surely every child should, as far as possible, have a chance to get their foot on the bottom rung of the education ladder before they go to primary school. Well informed and well motivated parents are the best and, incidentally, probably the cheapest way to achieve that objective. I believe that a reduction in unwanted pregnancies will not be achieved by making laws or by providing more institutional childcare. It can happen only as a result of a change of heart in our society, which would require a major campaign such as the one that so successfully addressed passive smoking. A clear statement such as this amendment, if accepted, would produce a solid basis for such a campaign.
I have set down the second and third amendments in my group because I believe that there is a strong case for making someone explicitly responsible for ensuring that the services to parents which the Bill establishes are actually being delivered by the wide range of different bodies that will be involved. It seems to me that the pattern of joint working that the Government propose for the early years services will lead to extravagance, duplication and inefficiency—especially when it comes to shared budgets. What business would run successfully without someone in charge? I have selected my amendments on the basis that so much of the delivery of this programme will fall on local authorities and they should have to answer for the effectiveness of delivery in their areas. At national level the Department for Education should have overall responsibility to Parliament in order to ensure that the outcomes of the programmes are being delivered because I believe that the early years programme is a key element in the success of the Government’s policy to improve educational outcomes and to reduce disadvantage.
I have set down these amendments because leadership is a subject that should not pass without some discussion in this debate. I beg to move.
Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, I very much commend the objectives of the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne. I feel sure that my noble friend the Minister would also do so although I strongly suspect he would not accept that they should be put in the Bill. They express the Government’s intention in relation to helping and supporting parents. I am sure we all understand how important well informed, confident parents are to the upbringing of our children.
I agree with the noble Lord that we need a change of heart in this country. We need to accept that parenting can be learnt. I was in New Zealand during the summer and talked to the people who instituted its highly successful SKIP programme of parenting assistance, support and information. It is based on the premise that you can learn to be a better parent if you are well informed about how children develop, how their brains develop, what works and what does not, and what is good for the child and what is not. We can do that in two ways in this country. One is to start with PSHE in schools and work with young people to help them understand the seriousness of what they take on, as the noble Lord said, when they become parents. Later we can provide more assistance to parents.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, for his somewhat qualified warm words about my honourable friend Sarah Teather in another place. I would point out that she announced during the conference season this year that the Government will be providing more funding for parents who wish voluntarily to attend parenting classes. That is very much a step in the right direction.
Lord Eden of Winton
My Lords, I very much agree with what my noble friend Lady Walmsley has just said. I hesitate to disagree with the emphasis that the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, brought to bear in moving his amendment only because I, like I am sure every noble Lord in this House, recognise the great contribution he has made over many years to the welfare of children and to the cause of good parenting. I certainly do not wish to dissociate myself from the objective he has set.
However, where I differ from him is in suggesting that bringing matters in the form of statute and putting them in the Bill is the right way to proceed. I agree with my noble friend Lady Walmsley that good parenting can be taught and that the practice is urgently in need of wider observation. I cannot accept that by putting these words into the Bill we will in some way be striking a blow at unwanted pregnancies. There are other ways of dealing with that. Several thoughts are brought to mind in this particular amendment. They include the damaging impact of the constant replication on television of various human relationship activities, which I do not think accord to the highest standards of individual conduct. If we were able—and as a former Minister for Posts and Telecommunications, I have to accept that we are not—to bring a greater degree of responsibility to bear on those who regulate our television programmes for the content of what is relayed into homes, where it is often watched by those with vulnerable minds, we would probably do a very great service to our children.
There is, in my view, a strong feeling that on the whole parents fail to understand the need to communicate with the child, even when the child is very young—although I recognise that that is an awful generalisation. I have made my next point in this place before. How often does one see parents pushing their children in pushchairs with the child facing away from the parent? If the child faced the other way, the parent would have direct contact with them, be able to talk to them, communicate with them and have eye contact with them. The benefit would be enormous not just to the parent, but, more importantly, to the child. These are not tricks of the trade but important underlying principles that need to be adopted by parents. They do not need to be written into the statute but they need to be understood by parents. We need to educate parents in this regard. That starts in the school where children receive all kinds of messages relevant to parenting.
Like all of us, it is the desire of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, to control the number of unwanted pregnancies, and therefore we might address the whole subject of sex education in schools in this group of amendments. That may well come up later. However, the content of that material, and the fact that it is projected to our children in schools from the age of five, is appalling. That matter needs to be tackled sensibly. The real key to good parenting and preparing a child for school is for the parent’s attention to be focused constantly on the child. Parents need to look after their children, not relegate them to sitting in front of the television, thereby avoiding their responsibility and the daily need to attend to their children’s requirements. We need to ensure that this happens by some means or another. I do not quite know how it can be done, but perhaps through talking about it a great deal, through educational provision, through our churches and through every other means of communication, we can ensure that parents really understand the responsibilities involved in having a child, and that that responsibility starts from the very earliest moment of the child’s life when they need to communicate directly with them and draw them into the heart of a loving family. That is the way to prepare children for education and school life.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with the amendments of my noble friend Lord Northbourne, which he seeks to insert at a rather appropriate place in the Bill just under the heading “Early Years Provision”. The amendments describe measures that the noble Lord thinks would be effective. I was not clear how the measures would stop unwanted children being born. Nevertheless, focusing rather more attention on things such as flexible working for both parents might allow a greater sharing of responsibilities. I am glad to say that that is the pattern today, whereby the country is using the talents of both sexes in producing well-balanced children for the future and making certain that we make the most of our intellectual and productive abilities when competing in an increasingly global world.
Lord Elton
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her reference to early assessment, but I fear that early assessment is actually too late. My criticism of these amendments, though not of their purpose, is that they come too late. We are suffering from having failed as yet fully to adapt to the change that has come over the mores of our nation and many others, most of it during my lifetime. We have gone from a time when unwanted children were such a threat to respectability, earning, and so on, when having a child was regarded as a danger and a risk to those who were not married, to a time when sexual activity is regarded by many, almost wholly, as a recreation with no consequences. It seems to me that that must be addressed long before they become parents. The answer therefore lies in later amendments which deal with how children are taught in school.
I sympathise with the wish of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, for a campaign to change our attitude to these matters. It is a biological as well as a political thing which will need a great deal of effort for a very long time by a lot of committed people. I hope that a number of them are in this Chamber.
Lord Storey
My Lords, I remember that when I was training to be a teacher one of my education lecturers, Mrs Mesurier, always used to say, “It is all down to good toilet training”. She was absolutely right. We should never underestimate the importance of parents to the life chances of children. That is why as a society we have done so much over the years to realise that the processes, schemes and opportunities for parents to be taught how to support and help their children at a very early stage are so important. I would also add that we must never underestimate the fact that many parents live in the most difficult of situations but bring up their children in a fantastic way.
There are all sorts of schemes in schools. We need only look at Sure Start, which we will be talking about later. It was a scheme to ensure that parents were closely involved in their children’s education, while at the same time they could be taught parenting skills and given support. I am all for action and feel that maybe we should take stock of the tremendous work that we have already done. I am not opposed to collecting more information; I just think that we should recognise the commitment and the work that we have done and evaluate more closely some of those schemes. I wholeheartedly agree with my noble friend that assessment of a child at an early stage is hugely important because we can then tailor educational needs and support to that child and family.
Lord Peston
My Lords, we are all indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, for raising the subject today, as on many other days previously in my years here. He is indefatigable in his determination to remind us of the importance of young children and of the family in providing the relevant context.
I was going to say that we are all parents but looking at the grey hair around this House, I am obviously talking overwhelmingly to grandparents rather than parents. However, thinking back to when we were young parents, there would be no disagreement that our duty was overwhelmingly to our children. I am not opposed to parental education; quite the contrary—the more the better. I certainly did not have any but my wife and I had no doubt whatever that when we got married we would have children and that, of course, the children were our responsibility. We devoted our lives to them. They are now very grown up but occasionally the phone rings and one will ask, “Is mum there?”, meaning that he has a problem of the sort that he used to have when he was three years old.
There is nothing between us on what we are focusing on. The question is: what contribution we can make in the context of this Bill, which will become an Act of Parliament? I am not too happy at the negativism I have heard from one or two noble Lords on this.
I say to myself, “Why should we not put our aspirations in the Bill?”. Would it not be useful for your Lordships—people of experience and distinction—to send out the message that the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, wishes us to send? I believe very strongly that the answer to that question is yes. I see nothing in our unwritten constitution that says aspirations must never be placed in an Act of Parliament. Indeed, I would go further: I feel those of us in this House would be failing in our duties if we did not insist that proper recognition was made of our aspirations. I am therefore in agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, that this should be in the Bill.
I also think that, in terms of making policy, there is a genuine problem sometimes in not having all the relevant information we might need. This is not the last Bill that will ever be presented to your Lordships’ House on education, nor the last to be presented that will deal with the subject of children. It would be jolly good if we were able to speak with a full factual basis behind us. That is why I would particularly hope that the Minister would look at Amendment 3—also tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne—with the intention of giving us a database for future policy-making in due course.
I conclude as I began: it would be a very valuable thing for this House of older men and women to send out a message to the world that we really do think this is of central importance, and we aspire to do something about it.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, like other noble Lords, I should like to pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Northbourne for his absolutely indefatigable championing of early years provision, which is the context of the amendment. I also agree with my noble friend Lady Howe about the importance of assessment, and echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Eden, about communication. While I am commending, I also commend the Minister for the way that he has communicated with us all throughout this Bill, by writing to us, informing us and keeping us in the picture. That is very much appreciated.
I have to say to the Minister that, in saying what I am going to say, I end up with a question, which is a question born out of disappointment, from over a number of years, in failing to achieve what I know many noble Lords in this House want. In coming to this particular description, I was interested in the report and summary of evidence released in July by the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Education. I would like to quote certain passages from the all-party group’s reports, which I think are important, especially in connection with the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne.
First, the all-party group states that all respondents to the inquiry,
“were of the opinion that early intervention is essential and that recommendations or statutory guidance should be provided to health authorities to prompt earlier intervention”.
I say that because I will conclude with health. Of all the different interventions, I have always felt that one of the most important is that of speech and language therapists, who enable children to communicate with their teachers when they start school. Without that, the pupils cannot engage. When we are talking about education, we are also discussing why people cannot engage. This point has been made over and over again, without success.
As has been said many times,
“It is vital that assessments and interventions are tailored to the specific needs of pupils”.
The point about such interventions is that they should identify specific needs, including difficulties and disabilities such as problems with hearing, sight and so on. This interests me because I have tried to get this introduced before, after I carried out an experiment in young offender institutions with children aged 15 and upwards. That experiment proved that, had those children had that intervention earlier, they might not have arrived at the institution—by and large, their journey until then had been one of failure, not least failure in education. I saw this represented and repeated by children on intensive supervision orders in Leeds, which proved exactly the same thing. The report by Mr John Bercow, as he then was, into the whole question of learning difficulties and how they were not being tackled, highlighted the same problem.
However, when I put up the suggestion that there should be speech and language therapists in every young offender institution to establish what was preventing people making progress, the whole issue ended up with money. The Ministry of Justice was unable to fund speech and language therapists because they came from the Department of Health. Similarly, when I put up exactly the same proposal in earlier education Bills, the same answer has come: it is the Department of Health's responsibility to provide these people.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, I will be very brief, in part because I have an amendment on a similar theme to this in the next grouping in the Welfare Reform Bill. I, too, thank my noble friend for tabling these amendments and for generating this tremendously important debate at the beginning of Report. It was deeply gratifying yesterday to hear the Minister of State, Sarah Teather, highlighting the fact that the most important thing in terms of outcomes for educating children is the home environment, which is more important than the jobs that parents do or any other factor. My noble friend has hit the nail on the head, and we must get this right.
It concerns me that we should encourage and enable parents to learn to read, write and count when they have not been able to do that at school. It is very important that we enable parents to get access to adult education so that they can make up for any deficits. It troubles me that creches at the adult education institutes are being cut. I understand the difficult circumstances, but if there is any money available to the Minister and his department in the form of targeted funding to improve outcomes for children, in recognition of the importance of the home environment that money should go to the creches in those adult education institutes.
The noble Lord, Lord Eden, raised some very important points. I am sure that it is a concern to see those children facing away from their parents in the idiotically designed modern prams. I understand his concern about compelling parents to attend parenting classes, but it is interesting to bear in mind what the noble Lord, Lord Warner, said when he was chairman of the Youth Justice Board at the time of the controversial introduction of parenting orders for parents who were not managing their children properly—the children were getting into the criminal justice system. His comment was that parenting classes were the cheapest intervention with these families and young men, that they were the most effective intervention and that, when parents went to the classes, they said, “Why didn’t we know about these before?”. They were really grateful for the help. This needs to be treated extremely carefully and perhaps used only rarely. I am not sure whether the classes continue, but perhaps there is a place for them.
The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, raised very important questions, as did the noble Lord, Lord Storey, about valuing the early years experience.
I will have to move on quickly. I thank the Minister in particular for his help in Committee on my concern about the turnover of staff in nurseries. I will not be present for the next grouping of amendments, so I want to thank him now. I realise that the best place for me to put my worries is in the new consultation on the inspection of nurseries. I now know the civil servant to speak to. I am very grateful to him for his help on this. I cannot speak on the next grouping, but I am very concerned about the high turnover of staff in nurseries and the fact that nursery staff are often the poorest paid and least well educated yet we are placing the most vulnerable children in their care. These children above all things need stability in their lives. They need stable people who stay around. In some settings, such as nurseries attached to schools, staff turnover is 5 per cent, but in Sure Start centres and in other centres, turnover can be 13 or 15 per cent. Better support for staff and proper training and development will help to reduce the turnover of staff. I am sorry to jump ahead, but I strongly support the amendment on Sure Start centres and on insisting that staff get the training and support they need.
I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Baroness Benjamin
My Lords, further to what the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, said, I would like to add play therapy to his list. Qualified play specialists who can work with the child and the parent—especially those having difficulties in relationships and attachment—really work. I have seen the results of that type of therapy, which is quite remarkable. I would like the Minister to take that into consideration when he is looking at this amendment.
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
My Lords, I shall make a few brief comments on these amendments. I start by commending the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, who never misses an opportunity to raise the issue of parenting. I am terribly grateful that he does so because, with so many weighty matters often before this House, it is sometimes difficult to get those issues heard.
The noble Lord and other noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Storey, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, were right when they said that we cannot overstate the importance of having good parents and the disadvantage to children when parents for one reason or another do not understand what good parenting is. For me, that involves having good involved fathers as well as mothers, as the noble Lord’s amendments make clear. Too often in our discourse about this, the default position is mothers, and we forget about fathers. As Minister for Children for four years, that was something I was very concerned about.
The point made by the noble Lord, Lord Eden, about communication from birth is profoundly important. Communication is the basis of good parenting because the enrichment children get from that kind of elaborative language, play, song and stories literally helps the brain to grow and helps the conceptual abilities of children to develop as well as helping with bonding.
I do not share some noble Lords’ opinion that somehow there has been a failure of moral fibre among the population and that today’s parents perhaps no longer care as much as our parents did. There have been changes, but some of those changes are due to changing social circumstances. The lack of proximity of grandmothers, grandfathers and the extended family to new parents means that sometimes people become parents without the support of their family who have been through that before, so they do not benefit from the wealth of that experience. I do not think this is to do with unplanned pregnancy or feckless parents. It has been demonstrated that many people new to parenting nowadays need support to understand what good parenting is. In my experience, and as the research shows, parents want that support and want to be good parents. That is why, as noble Lords have said, the provision of the opportunity to learn what that means is so crucial. Putting on the statute book that this will be available, without dictating the terms of that in detail, is an important thing to do.
The noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, rightly looked at the Childcare Act and said that it does not make provision for parenting education and support, and he is right. However, other legislation already on the statute book and in statutory regulations make provision for that, and it was enshrined in the legislation and regulations that define the Sure Start children's centre, as the noble Lord, Lord Storey, pointed out. When the regulations for what children’s centres should provide were being drawn up, they included a core offer that all children’s centres had to provide, as well as some optional things that centres could provide depending on local need. The provision of parenting support and parenting education classes is in the core offer. All children’s centres, particularly those in disadvantaged areas, have to provide parenting support, and have been doing so. There has been enormous progress in the amount of provision available and, as the noble Lord, Lord Storey, has said, many schools, particularly primary schools, now provide that as part of their core offer.
The problem for me, which I would be grateful if the Minister could address, is that because children’s centres are closing and many are having to reduce the services they provide because of lack of funds, the progress that has been made in making parenting education and support available is now in jeopardy. The Minister may well refer to the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, that the Government have very recently announced some new money to promote parenting support, but I question the need for that at the same time as we are seeing some of that provision disappear because children’s centres are closing and being reduced. There is some conflict about where the Government stand in relation to ensuring the provision is available. It has been available for some time now in children’s centres but, as I say, that is now in jeopardy.
I very much support the amendments. The noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, said that he would not press them for a vote, but I think it is important for the Minister to make clear the Government’s position on this, particularly in relation to children’s centres. We will come to that issue in more detail in Amendment 5, but it is relevant here because this is predominantly where parenting support and education is currently available.
The Earl of Listowel
Before the noble Baroness sits down, can she say whether she thinks it important that there is a good, continuous institutional base for parenting training and development? I may have misremembered—
Baroness Garden of Frognal
If the noble Earl will forgive me, on Report people may speak only once to each amendment.
The Earl of Listowel
I thought it was the case that one could ask a brief question before someone sits down. I do apologise if that is wrong.
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
If noble Lords will accept the question put to me by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, I will answer it. I think it is very important that there is an institutional base because one needs to develop a great deal of expertise around delivering parenting support.
There is a danger that anybody who has been a parent thinks they can give effective parenting support and education, and that is not the case. Children’s centres are required to provide only those programmes that have been extensively researched and validated to show that they have a positive impact. The Webster-Stratton approach and others have been so researched and the documentation on their effectiveness is in the public domain. It is not clear who will deliver the programmes the Government have put this extra money into, but it is very important that there is the training and delivery of really clear programmes that make a difference. Otherwise, if people think they can just get a group of parents together and advise them because they have been a parent and they know how it is done, I am afraid that can do more harm than good.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, it has been an extremely good debate to kick off Report stage. Like others, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, for raising this issue. No one has done more than him to keep the importance of parenting before this House. No one could possibly disagree with him about the vital role that parents play and about the importance of helping children get off to the best possible start in life. He is always keen for the Government to do more, but I hope he will accept that there is a lot going on in the early years already.
I imagine the noble Lord saw the announcement made yesterday by my honourable friend Sarah Teather about the parenting trials that will be run in Middlesbrough, High Peak and Camden. My noble friend Lady Walmsley referred to the lead that my honourable friend Sarah Teather is taking in this respect. Those trials will give parents access to parenting classes during the first five years of their child’s life so they can have help with parenting until the child starts school. I would be very happy to arrange for the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, and any other noble Lords who are interested, to be briefed more fully on those trials.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, said, the Government are protecting support and advice for parents in some other ways as well. We funded a range of voluntary and community sector organisations to operate online and telephone support services which, in the past three years, have had 10 million contacts from parents. They give help to parents in the important job of bringing up their children, and there is more news coming on those later this week.
The noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, has tabled three separate amendments relating to parenting. The first would be a duty on parents. While I agree that parents—both fathers and mothers, as has been said, not just mothers—have a responsibility to provide for their child, including promoting their personal, social and emotional development, we do not believe that imposing declaratory obligations on parents is the right way forward, as my noble friend Lord Eden of Winton, also argued. We know that most parents do a good job, as my noble friend Lord Storey reminded us, many in difficult circumstances, and we therefore do not think that they need a new legal duty to do what they do naturally. The duty would also be unlikely to motivate the small number of parents who do not do a good job. We would argue that what is needed is practical help and support of the kind that a number of noble Lords have already raised—for example, about communication, a point that the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, underlined from her distinguished experience as Children’s Minister.
The kind of support we provide is offered through Sure Start children’s centres. I know that the noble Baroness is concerned about those and their future, as we discussed yesterday and will discuss later today. The Government are putting in enough money, through the early intervention grant, to sustain a national network of Sure Start children’s centres and to make sure that they focus on those with the greatest disadvantage. I have mentioned the parenting trials and the helpline services. There are programmes for families with multiple problems or the kind of flexible working that was mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote. We are also adding 4,200 more health visitors. Those are the kind of health visitors who will be able to carry out the sort of assessment that was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. I shall come back on his points in a moment.
We have protected the 15 hours a week free nursery education for three and four year-olds, and, subject to parliamentary approval, we will extend that to disadvantaged two year-olds. Local authorities are under statutory duties to ensure that there are sufficient children’s centres to meet local need, so far as is reasonably practical, and to provide information to parents about the services available locally to help them. That brings us on to the important points that were raised about information, particularly by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe. The point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, was echoed by my noble friend Lady Benjamin. He is right to highlight the importance of speech and language to children’s school readiness. The Government, on the recommendations of Dame Clare Tickell, are introducing a review of children’s progress at age two. We are looking at bringing the health and education aspects together in the way that the noble Lord said. I know that my honourable friend Sarah Teather is looking at that, but I will also raise the point with my noble friend Lord Howe.
With regard to information generally, there is quite a lot of information out there. The early years foundation stage profile gathers information on a child’s preparedness for school. Under existing legislation, local authorities are required to collect information about children’s progress in the early years foundation stage at age five, and the Secretary of State publishes these data annually at both the local authority and national level. But what I will do, which might help noble Lords, is to write to the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, and set out in one place the various ways in which information is provided so that we can pull it all together and see what is out there.
Like all other noble Lords who have spoken, I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, for raising the profile of parenting. I would be keen to take him up on his generous offer of discussing these important issues further after Report stage and to arrange for him to meet my honourable friend Sarah Teather who has responsibility. I will speak to the noble Lord with a great deal of pleasure.
As regards these amendments, we do not think that the statutory declaration is a necessary or practical way forward. I know that I will have disappointed the noble Lord but in light of the existing duties around the provision of information and services, I would ask him to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Northbourne
My Lords, I always get a bit nervous. It makes me feel a bit of a bore when everyone is so kind as to say that I am always raising these issues. But they are none the less important. Perhaps I may take what the Minister said first—I think it was referred to by the noble Lords, Lord Eden and Lord Peston, one against and one in favour—as regards why it would be a good idea to put something in the Bill. It is not at all an original idea. The Children (Scotland) Act 1995 already has a very good definition of the responsibilities of parenthood.
Earlier this autumn, I was at a wedding in France. I was interested that the mayor read out certain extracts from the Code Civil to the married couple. Loosely interpreted, one extract said, “If you have children, you as parents will be responsible for feeding and caring for your children”. It is not unthinkable or way out to suggest that some sort of hint of obligation could be in statute. I suggest it more as a matter of principle. As someone said, our moral values have hugely changed, not always for the worse, since the introduction of contraception. We really have not thought the issue through properly to ensure that everyone understands what we as a society believe to be the responsibilities of bringing a child into the world. Somewhere, somehow, some Government have to have the courage to get people together and to say, “Look, this seems to be a reasonable compromise solution”. It should be thought of in terms of the rights of the child.
I do not think that the noble Lord spoke to my two other amendments but I shall read what he said. There is an element of chaos in the organisation that the Government are proposing. The speeches of a number of noble Lords today have shown that one person is doing one thing and another is doing something else, but one did not know that the other was going to do it, and this, that and the other. Somehow, it needs pulling together as an organisation if we are to get results, and get them at the right price. I am sure that an enormous amount of money is now being wasted in terms of duplication.
I am very grateful to so many noble Lords for participating in the debate on this important subject. I had something to say about what the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, said but I have forgotten what it was. I hope that we shall move forward on these issues from one Bill to the next. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) Regulations under subsections (1) of (2) may not, following their first use, specify a reduction in the total number of hours of early years provision available to each child that a local authority must secure free of charge.”
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
My Lords, Amendment 4 relates to the early education provision for three and four year-olds and now for two year-olds. Amendment 5 relates to Sure Start children’s centres, on which we have already briefly touched. As it stands, the clause makes it possible to include in statutory regulation the provision of free early years provision for children of two years of age from disadvantaged backgrounds. I want to start by saying how genuinely I welcome the extension of this provision for disadvantaged two year-olds. This was started by the previous Labour Government initially giving places to 12,000 two year-olds with a long-term goal of free places for all two year-olds, and building on the offer for three and four year-olds. I very much welcome the Government’s decision to continue that process.
As it stands, the Bill gives the Secretary of State new powers to decide, through regulation, how much early years provision should take place and when it must be made available. This amendment aims to ensure that any changes in the scope of that regulation-making power can be used only to increase provision above that which already exists, and not to reduce it. The amendment would mean that moves by any future Government to reduce early years entitlements would have to come before Parliament as a whole and could not simply be done through regulation alone. I tabled a similar but not identical amendment in Committee, and I was grateful for the advice of the Minister that its wording could have reduced the flexibility available for parents. That was not my intention.
I come back with this amendment not because I doubt the sincerity of the Minister or even the current Government in their commitment to continue and, if possible, build on this early years provision. Noble Lords have identified it as important; having children in early years education and childcare allows for opportunities on, for example, early intervention, assessment and parenting. I do not doubt the Government’s sincerity, but we do not know what a future Government might do. More importantly, there are two reasons why this provision should be included. First, families need and deserve the certainty that this provision will continue, and that if it changes it will only increase, without Parliament having to consider it again. That is important for families. Secondly, and relatedly, I would like to enshrine this provision, as far as possible, with the same or equivalent status as that of schooling from the age of five, because that would underline and would state powerfully the importance of early years provision. In other words, it is a provision that parents can expect will continue—and that Governments will continue to provide—for children aged two, three and four. It is for that reason that I hope, with the changes I have made to the amendment, that the Minister might accept it on this occasion.
I turn now to Amendment 5. We rehearsed the arguments about the importance of Sure Start briefly yesterday in Questions, and we debated it in Committee. I make no apology for returning to this but I realise, from the Minister’s earlier statement, that he is unlikely to accept this amendment. I nevertheless say that what the previous Government managed to do—and I think this Government are in support in principle—was establish a new framework of services for parents and the under-fives, through a national network of children’s centres, one in every locality. Not every centre has the same services; in disadvantaged areas there are more extensive services than in others. They are, however, a focus for the integration of services such as children’s social services, early education and health services. We aspire to early identification of children and families in difficulty in a universal, non-stigmatising service that will enable the centre to identify and reach out to families who need support, as well as offering other opportunities—such as play activities—that all families can take advantage of. Having established this national network, it would be a retrograde step to let it crumble. My concern is that it is crumbling.
I have brought forward this amendment to reinstate the qualification requirements which the Government have removed. As with teaching, we know that the quality of early years provision in particular is absolutely fundamental, and that the quality of the provision is fundamental to having a positive impact on children. It would also reinstate ring-fencing of the funding for Sure Start centres.
I quickly wrote down what the Minister has just stated: that he feels that the Government, through the early intervention grant, have provided sufficient money to sustain a national network of children’s centres. The early years intervention grant brings together funding not only for Sure Start children’s centres, but for 20-odd other services, including, for instance, the strategy to tackle teenage pregnancy. A whole range of things has been lumped into this grant. As a whole, the early intervention grant is 20 per cent less in real terms than those funding streams were when added together, so it will be a huge challenge for local authorities to sustain their children’s centres when the money now has to be spread across 21 different services and has been reduced by 22 per cent in real terms. I really must say to the Minister that while the money might sustain something of a network of children’s centres, it probably will not sustain the level of national network that we achieved with a children’s centre in every locality—one, as I have said, that is accessible, universal and non-stigmatising.
To make this a residual service only for the most disadvantaged areas misses the point of children’s centres and risks the fact that very disadvantaged families will not get to them. One of the reasons they were coming to children’s centres was that they were for everybody, not just for disadvantaged people. If it was just another arm of the statutory services, they kept away.
This is an important amendment, but I do not think for a moment that the Minister is going to accede to it. We have information now that we referred to yesterday: as a result of the reductions in funding, many centres are actually closing down and many more closures are in the pipeline. Further, centres that are staying open are reducing their service offer down to the absolute minimum. Looking to the future, given that this national network of centres had an enormous potential to make a huge difference to the next generation of young people, then of all the decisions the Government could have made in relation to funding priorities—I accept that they had to make them—sustaining this service at the level at which it was being provided ought to have been a priority. I hope—although I do not have much hope—that the Minister will also look sympathetically at Amendment 5. I beg to move.
Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, I think I can give the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, some comfort on Amendment 4 because I am very familiar with a document called the coalition agreement. Although we cannot bind any future Government, this Government are bound by that agreement. I do not think it would allow any reduction at all in the amount of early years education provision given to children in this country during the five years of this Government. Turning to Amendment 5, I agree with the noble Baroness on the point about qualifications. The most reputable pieces of academic research into the effects of early years provision make it clear that the better the qualifications of the staff leading a centre, the higher the quality of provision and the more good that does for children. Indeed, it has also been shown that poor provision can do more harm than good. The noble Baroness is absolutely right that we should focus on improved qualifications for the early years workforce.
On the number of Sure Start children’s centres, it is a pity that the noble Baroness’s diary was unable to allow her to attend the meeting and seminar of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Sure Start last week, at which we heard from a number of local authorities. It has to be admitted that they were all struggling to continue to make the provision they wanted to make for children and their parents. It was startling to see how differently they approached the issue. One of them pointed out that while in some cases they had closed a physical centre, they had not ceased to provide services to children and their families because they were being offered out of another centre, or from a virtual centre or something like that. We have to allow local authorities to work with the budgets they are given and make provision in the way they see best. But, of course, we also have to allow them to impose their own priorities on the provision they make. I am delighted that so many local authorities consider Sure Start children’s centres to be so important that they have somehow managed not to close any or reduce the services they provide.
Lord Northbourne
My Lords, I would at this point offer a brief thought on this amendment, which I do not entirely support. All the payments we are making are about inputs and what really matters is outcomes. How and whether it is possible to measure the output from a children’s centre, I am not entirely clear. It would not be easy and, so far as I have had any experience of children’s centres, there is a wide variation; not only in the quality of the service that they offer, but also in the clientele they offer it to. In one that I visited, it was quite manifest that the parents were quite wealthy, and when I asked them what they did about hard-to-reach families, they sucked their teeth and said, “Well, they are hard to reach”. So it is outputs that we should be paying for, not inputs.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, it is clear from the discussions that we had earlier in Committee and the exchange today that everyone on all sides of this House agrees on the importance of investing in children’s early years. We know that high quality early education is crucial to achieving greater social mobility and to improving the life chances of all children. That is why the Government seek to extend the free entitlement to early education to disadvantaged two year-olds. Clause 1 allows us to build on the provision that the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, established through the Childcare Act 2006. I was grateful for her generous welcome for the measure. I know how much it means to her. I also know what a respected Children’s Minister she was, so I think there is agreement across the House on the importance of this measure.
Since we last debated this clause in Committee, the Government have published their Families in the Foundation Years policy statement. That sets out the Government’s vision for the foundation years as a whole and reaffirms our commitment further to improve early years services. It includes a number of proposals specifically on the early education free entitlement. For example, we intend to launch shortly a public consultation on how the flexibility and quality of provision of the entitlement could be improved. This consultation will also cover the criteria for which two year-olds should be eligible for the free entitlement.
Despite the challenging economic circumstances we face, we have protected funding for the three and four year-old entitlement and provided the additional funding that the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, referred to for disadvantaged two year-olds.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, set out her concerns underlying Amendment 4, and I understand what she seeks to achieve. The current entitlement for three and four year-olds is set at 570 hours a year, over no fewer than 38 weeks a year. That is, 15 hours a week. We now seek to extend this to all disadvantaged two year-olds. While I understand the case that the noble Baroness made about protecting the level of this entitlement in primary legislation, the question that I would ask is the same that my noble friend Lady Walmsley asked: protection from whom?
This Government, as my noble friend says—I am sure she is accurate, since she knows the coalition agreement extremely well—have given repeated assurances over the early education entitlement. I am also sure the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, recognises that, and her party clearly believe that one would want to move only in one direction. So do the Liberal Democrats.
The first amendment in this group seeks to tie the hands of future Governments regarding the entitlement and I would contend that we do not think it is the place for primary legislation to prescribe that level of the entitlement. Those details should lie in regulations. That was the approach taken by the previous Government when they initiated free entitlement for three and four year-olds in the Childcare Act 2006. When the noble Baroness was in my department, they argued in their memorandum to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in 2006 that:
“It is appropriate that this provision is in secondary legislation to give flexibility to react to changing circumstances”.
We believe that was the right approach.
Subsequent Governments will have to make their own judgments on the appropriate level of the free entitlement. We are responding to lessons that have been learned from experience since 2006, and in particular in extending it to disadvantaged two year-olds, and it is possible that future experience may throw up other lessons. So, as the noble Baroness conceded that she would expect, we believe the first amendment is unnecessary.
The noble Baroness’s second amendment concerns the sufficiency of children centres to meet local need and the qualifications of the staff working at them. There is no difference between us about the importance that we attribute to children centres. They are vital to improving outcomes for children and their families—a point made also by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne—and it is the outcomes rather than the inputs, to use the jargon, which are important.
There are, year on year, overall improvements in early years foundation stage outcomes and that is vital. We know that 94 per cent of children who achieved a good level of development at age five in 2007 went on to achieve the expected levels for reading at key stage 1 in 2009. So there is a clear link.
The existing legislation requires local authorities to ensure there are sufficient children centres to meet local need so far as is reasonably practicable. The effect of the noble Baroness’s amendment would be to take out having regard to what is “reasonably practicable”. We should stick with the current formulation. As my noble friend Lady Walmsley argued, local authorities need the flexibility to be able to determine local priorities in the context of their many responsibilities and, yes, the resources that they have available to them. Again, that was the position that the previous Government took in 2009: local authorities must be able to consider their local context, their resources and their overall priorities as they strive to ensure access to services that improve young children’s outcomes.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, is right to say that local authorities are facing difficult financial circumstances. I know of her concern about the funding going into Sure Start children centres. She or one of her colleagues in another place has carried out their own work to ascertain the extent of what is going on. The department is monitoring the situation and is working with local authorities to get an accurate fix on what is happening. She will know probably better than me that it is a fluid situation, and we want information from which we can see how things are developing.
As my noble friend Lady Walmsley has just mentioned, and mentioned yesterday, many authorities are keeping all their children centres open. Local authorities should have the flexibility to deliver services in the ways they think best meet local needs within the resources that we have.
I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, about the importance of qualifications. Again she will know that for some roles qualification requirements are in place. The statutory framework for the early years foundation stage specifies that all supervisors and managers of registered childcare settings for children under five must hold a full and relevant level 3 qualification and half of all other staff must hold a full and relevant level 2 qualification. Those health services delivered through children centres can be provided only by suitably qualified and experienced professionals because of other statutory requirements already in place. As Dame Clare Tickell said in her recent review, there has been an improvement in the skills of the early education and childcare workforce in recent years. We have set up recently a review of qualifications for the early education and childcare sector, led by Professor Cathy Nutbrown, to consider how best to strengthen qualifications and career pathways.
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and have a few brief comments in response to his contribution and also that of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley.
On Amendment 4, I hope that the noble Baroness will not think me discourteous if I say that it will not sufficiently comfort me or many parents—as was my intention with the amendment—to say that it is in the coalition agreement and so will be all right. We have measures now in Parliament that were not in the coalition agreement and there are measures in the coalition agreement that have not—as yet, anyway—been put forward to Parliament. While I accept her personal commitment, and that of the Minister and indeed maybe of the current Government, what happens in the future is open to question. As I said, my intention was both to give parents some certainty and also try to give this provision to the under-fives an equivalent status to that of schooling. I am sorry that I have not been able to convince the Minister that those were sufficiently worthy objectives to accept my amendment.
On Amendment 5 and the children’s centres, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her support on training. The comments about the improvement in the skill levels of people in early years are important but, certainly in part if not in very large measure, those improvements have been made. We have set the bar higher. A big issue about the quality of early years provision is the level of qualification and training that people get. We know that this is a largely unskilled, underpaid and female workforce. Over time, we need to bring up the levels of qualification and expertise. As I said, the improvements have been the result of setting the bar higher. Lowering the bar is a retrograde step, notwithstanding the comments that the Minister made about the requirements of people in a supervisory capacity.
On ring-fencing and whether this should have been a greater priority for the Government, we will have to beg to differ. I hope that the department will keep a close eye on what is happening in Sure Start children’s centres, both in terms of the numbers and what is being offered inside them. As I said, to risk this national network crumbling now would be another retrograde step which I am sure that the Minister would personally not support. However, in light of those comments, there is no point in my pressing this to divide the House. With that, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 4.
“( ) In subsection (1)(b), at the end insert “and has been trained— (i) in the need to maintain the pupil’s dignity and right to privacy in carrying out the search, and(ii) on additional requirements for searching pupils with special educational needs and disabilities;””
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, our amendments cover training for schools in the awareness of issues of pupil dignity and discipline when pupils are searched without consent in schools and, similarly, in FE colleges. They also cover the requirement for a witness to be present and, finally, the need for clarity on the school rules regarding which prohibited items can be confiscated in schools.
First, on Amendments 6 and 11, we had an excellent debate on training in Grand Committee and, with respect to the Minister, we very much felt that the weight of the arguments was on our side. This is why we have tabled similar amendments on Report. I also thank the Minister for his letter of 12 October, enclosing draft advice on searches. It picked up on some of our points raised in Committee but we do not feel that it goes far enough. For example, those guidance notes explicitly say that there should be no need for staff to be trained. It was said earlier that we very much welcome the plethora of letters that we have had from the Minister over the past few days. I echo our thanks but I believe this is going to be a pattern of the coming debates on Report, because the Government are keen to sideline some of the issues that we are raising into lengthy advice and guidance notes, whereas we feel that a much clearer and simpler direction on many of these issues needs to be in the Bill and would be much more helpful to heads and teachers alike.
Going back to the detail, our first amendments seek to ensure that any staff who undertake searches are appropriately trained to search with special educational needs and disabilities in mind and to search all pupils in a way that maintains their dignity and right to privacy, and so to foster a school environment of mutual respect. The Bill removes important checks and balances that have been in place to protect both pupils and teachers. As I understood the Minister's argument in Grand Committee, he accepted that training of staff was necessary but felt that heads should be free to decide whether and when staff should be trained. We take a different view. Of course, heads should have some flexibility in deciding the right courses for their staff but we also believe that the issue of pupil searches is so sensitive, and the opportunities for things to go wrong so stark, that there needs to be a requirement in the Bill to ensure that proper training happens.
As we reported in Grand Committee, our views are supported by a number of children's charities, which felt that staff doing searches should be trained in and given guidance on the effects of searches on young people, including on their self-esteem and confidence. In addition, organisations specifically concerned with special educational needs have expressed particular concern. For example, Ambitious about Autism highlighted the need for proper training to carry out safe searches on children with autism so that the children’s potential issues around physical contact, for example, were understood.
From the perspective of a child, searches can be very invasive and frightening experiences, causing children embarrassment, anxiety and humiliation. As adults, we sometimes forget what it feels like to be on the receiving end of a physical intervention from someone in power. These concerns can have even more pronounced implications for children with a history of physical or sexual abuse, children with a disability or special educational needs or children from different cultural backgrounds. For example, I was very struck by the intervention in Committee from the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, when she raised the negative impact of searches on the disproportionate number of black children who are currently being disciplined. In addition, our amendments would give a welcome protection to staff who might otherwise face allegations of improper behaviour.
For all these reasons, we believe it is right to insist that appropriate training takes place for all staff who may be required to carry out searches and that this requirement be spelt out in the Bill. Although I have referred specifically to schools, we believe that the same principles should apply to further education colleges. I hope that the Minister will acknowledge the similarities that cross over those two areas so that we do not have to have two separate debates on this.
We then have a number of amendments on the issue of a witness being present at searches. They are Amendments 7, 8A, 9, 12, 13A and 14. They follow on from our discussion in Grand Committee in which the dangers of unwitnessed searches were starkly spelled out and, with due respect again to the Minister, we did not feel were adequately counteracted. We therefore felt it was necessary to return to these issues today. Again, I acknowledge that these issues have been picked up in part in the draft the Minister has issued but we feel that the issues he has raised in the letter do not adequately address our concerns. Our amendment, which leaves out lines 32 to 33, removes the part of the Bill that says that if there is an emergency there does not need to be a witness present.
As we have previously made clear we support moves that would continue to support schools to improve behaviour and discipline, building on the measures brought in by the previous Government. However, despite debates in both Houses, it is still not clear why the removal of the requirement for there to be a witness to searches would be a necessary addition to existing powers to search or to use reasonable force to control or restrain a pupil or if necessary to stop a pupil committing a criminal offence. The debate in Grand Committee drew strong support from across different parties and the Cross Benches. For example, the noble Baronesses, Lady Walmsley and Lady Jolly, tabled an amendment to remove part of the clause that is included in the aims we are pursuing again today. I am aware that the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, has tabled Amendment 13, which insists on same-sex searches. This is a position again that we debated in Grand Committee and we supported then and still have some sympathy for today. However, we acknowledge the difficulties that can arise in primary schools where very often there are not teachers of an appropriate sex available. We believe the presence of a witness provides in all circumstances the overriding protection both for staff and for pupils being searched. The witness is the most necessary requirement.
A common view has arisen from our debates that children’s rights must be paramount. A number of children’s charities have raised concerns about the safeguarding issues should this clause go through unchanged. For example, Barnardo’s has argued that the extension of the powers of school staff to search pupils without their consent is troubling and the existing safeguards to protect both the child and the teacher must remain. It also argued that searches must be witnessed, carried out by a person of the same sex as the pupil, and recorded.
In the earlier debate I was particularly struck by the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Storey, who was able to give a practical insight into how the Bill would impact in the classroom. He said:
“If there is a crisis, the best way to deal with it is not to provoke the situation further but to calm everything down. My concern is that if a teacher carries out this act by themselves and no one else is present, it could put them at risk”.—[Official Report, 30/6/11; col. GC 261.]
As I also mentioned in Grand Committee, this clause gives school staff powers that go beyond the powers of the police in respect of stop and search. Can the Minister clarify whether this is in fact the consequence of the changes and has he consulted his colleagues in the Home Office to learn the lessons of the overuse of stop and search?
Throughout the debates on the Bill so far no one has been able to come up with a convincing range of examples of the circumstances in which these new powers need to be used. Teachers already have powers to intervene in the classroom in an emergency and, in other examples, the situation of a lone teacher carrying out a search is likely to aggravate not dissipate a situation as well as putting the teacher at risk. There does not seem to be a clamour from heads or from classroom staff to have these new powers. In the absence of any compelling reasons, despite thorough debate on these clauses in both Houses as to why searching without a witness would ever be necessary or sensible, and recognising the risk to pupils and teachers that the removal of the witness requirement may bring, my amendment would simply make it a requirement for people to undertake searches with a witness present.
Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, I wish to speak to my Amendment 8 to Clause 2 and Amendment 13 to Clause 3. Amendment 8 addresses same-gender searches and teachers or other staff searching alone in schools. Amendment 13 refers to colleges in Clause 3.
In Committee, the Minister pointed out that in primary schools with staff of all, or nearly all, one gender—usually women—it would usually be very difficult to find a member of staff to search boys. Of course, the opposite may also be true in some single-sex boys’ schools. We have taken that objection on board and come forward with a compromise which we hope will find favour with the Minister. Amendment 8 would allow opposite-sex searching of children under 12 as long as there is a witness of either gender present. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, that that is vital. However, we hold to our view that searching a child without a witness opens up the teacher and the child to danger in a quite unnecessary way. We accept the extension of the items for which teachers can search, and that these will be specified in published school rules. However, we feel that children’s privacy and dignity should be protected under their rights under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and that teachers should be protected from false allegations and possible physical harm if a child does indeed have a weapon in his pocket. If such a thing is suspected, a teacher would be very foolish indeed to search alone.
Like the Government, we trust professionals: 99.9 per cent of teachers will use these powers sensibly and carefully in their own interests and that of their pupils. However, we do not believe that legislation should allow something to be done lawfully which is quite wrong and dangerous. I fear that a tiny minority may not behave with the wisdom we hope for.
I wish to say something about the draft guidance that has been sent to us. Guidance is vital—all Governments think that is the case. Indeed, on many occasions when I pressed the previous Government to include measures on the face of a Bill, they said that it was absolutely fine to have them in guidance, and this Government are no different. Therefore, it is important that we work on the guidance. As the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, has just said, the JCHR has also asked that the guidance should be very clear.
As we have said, as the child gets older his right to privacy increases and the guidance mentions this on page two. However, there is no explanation of what is meant by Article 8 of the ECHR, which enshrines this, and how this could affect a searching scenario. Neither does it say that this right means that, wherever possible, a person of the same gender should search a child. On page 5 the teacher is told that a child should be searched by the same gender in the presence of a witness with limited exceptions. It is explained that a search of the opposite gender can take place without a witness if the teacher believes that there is a risk that serious harm will be caused to a person if the search is not carried out immediately, but there is no warning to the teacher to consider whether, in doing so, she is putting herself or nearby pupils at risk. There is no warning to the teacher to consider whether he is opening himself up to malicious allegations of inappropriate touching. I find it difficult to understand that given that the Government are protecting teachers from publication of allegations in Clause 13, but in Clause 2 of the same Bill they are potentially giving teachers a green light to do something that may risk their reputation even more, without such warnings in the guidance. It is not even put in a positive way, such as, “where at all possible, you should summon another teacher”. Nowhere is good practice mentioned.
On the matter of training, on pages 5 and 6, the guidance does not really encourage head teachers to ensure that staff authorised to search have adequate training. They only have to “consider” the matter. There is no mention of the sort of situation management training that takes place in young offender institutions, yet teachers are to be allowed to do the same things as the staff there.
Teachers do not want to do these things. It has often been said that they will completely alter the basis of the teacher-pupil relationship. The noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, makes a very good point about the need for sensitivity, understanding and knowledge in searching children with special needs or disabilities.
On page 10 of the guidance, reference is made to the power to examine and erase electronic files on such as mobile phones. While this may be perfectly okay in a case of simple bullying, there are more serious situations in which deleting a file may be deleting evidence in a criminal case. My noble friend Lady Benjamin will, I think, have more to say on this. I suggest that a single person’s decision about this is not good enough; reference should at least be made to a senior member of staff and the guidance should say so. I also think that parents should be consulted before this is done; this would involve parents in the school’s discipline arrangements, which is always a good thing.
The guidance is currently totally inadequate and I hope that the Minister will tell me that the department is willing to strengthen it. I am prepared to continue to work with officials until I am satisfied that the guidance truly helps teachers to make these very serious judgments. If we get this right, the situations that we fear will be very rare indeed, because teachers will know what is good practice and what is bad practice. Will the Minister allow his officials to continue to work with us in order to achieve the very good-quality guidance that this Government and the previous Government both wished for?
Baroness Massey of Darwen
My Lords, this is indeed a complex issue, as illustrated in the previous speeches. It was debated extensively in Committee and many issues have been raised again today. I was not planning to intervene here, but I am prompted to do so by the number of teachers who have contacted me and whom I have spoken to about searching. I wonder whether the Government realise and understand just how concerned teachers are about this and how distasteful they find it to have to do this in school. It is not only an issue of the rights, mentioned many times already today, of children, schools and teachers; I think it is a matter of common sense. There is a risk that searching a child in a school could destroy trust between teachers and pupils and have a detrimental effect on the ethos of a school. Many teachers have said exactly that.
I have one small anecdote: I was speaking today to the Children’s Commissioner, who said that she had also had many representations from teachers about this issue. She told a story about a 12 year-old boy who was on a newspaper round with a friend of his. The newspapers have to be cut out of a plastic band when they are given out for distribution to the boys and girls. One of the boys had put the knife used to cut the band into his pocket by mistake and ended up in school with it. He was searched because someone said that he had a knife and he was excluded from the school. There is a great danger that without excellent guidance, that kind of thing will go on.
Of course, there should be training and a careful exploration of the issues within the school. But it is important to have strong, clear rules about what is brought into school and strong enforcement of those rules, involving parents and the community. That should be emphasised in guidance—in fact, it should be the first lines of any guidance on prevention. Many good schools already do that. They are tough about bringing things into schools because that is in the school rules. I hope that the Minister will consider the amendments because this is a very serious issue for teachers and schools, and liable to be very destructive unless handled carefully.
Lord Sutherland of Houndwood
My Lords, I wish to comment briefly on Amendments 8 and 10, and to give my warm support to Amendment 8. We had an important debate on that amendment in Committee and the Minister pointed out the difficulties with primary schools. The difficulties have been met in a reasonable way, I believe, and I hope that in the spirit of good compromise all round we might move with the amendment and see it eventually in the Bill.
On Amendment 10 and following the remarks of my colleague, the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, guidance is immensely important—at least as important as what is in the Bill. I hope that the discussions that she seeks can be taken forward, and I hope that guidance, especially from the Secretary of State going down to schools, can be liberally sprinkled with the word “normally”. This is a very important word. It is not a weakening but indicates what the standard is and what good practice is meant to be. It indicates strongly that if the guidance is not accepted in any set of school rules or school practice, there has to be a very good reason that can be stated either when the inspection system requires it or alternatively, sadly, when it comes to exclusions or even court cases. I stress that the difficulty we had in Committee was over legislating for every item that might be searched for or for every individual case in which a search might be made.
It is difficult to specify each case. At one time who would have dreamt that we were supposed to use plastic cutlery on airlines? Yet that has come to be. We would rather have general guidance indicating good practice and good sense with the use of the word “normally” and therefore a requirement to give a reason for a change in what has been regarded as good practice until now. I ask the Minister to look closely at Amendment 10.
Baroness Benjamin
My Lords, as my noble friend Lady Walmsley said, I would like to pick up the subject of searching, as I would like to talk about the need for guidance to be provided by the Secretary of State regarding the erasure of data from electronic devices taken from pupils during a search incident. The erasure of data from electronic devices is a concern that was brought to my attention by the children’s charity Barnardo’s, and I declare an interest as a vice-president of the charity.
Barnardo’s understands the concerns around the use of mobile phones for viewing and displaying offensive material, and that teachers may wish to remove offensive material to prevent it being viewed or shared. However, there are concerns that teachers may use this power to erase data which could otherwise be used as legal evidence in court that a child is being sexually exploited or groomed for sexual exploitation.
It is well established that mobile phones are used as command and control devices in child sexual exploitation. Through the cases Barnardo’s has dealt with, the charity has found that one of the “tell-tale signs” of child sexual exploitation is the secretive use of mobile phones and the internet away from parents’ eyes. Children as young as seven are carrying mobile phones and they are increasingly accessing the internet via mobile phones from a variety of locations. The national guidance to local safeguarding children boards recognises that mobile phones are themselves often given as gifts to children who are being exploited and that they can be used to lure young people into being exploited or exploited further.
This is also recognised by police forces across the country; they acknowledge that gathering evidence for child sexual exploitation can be difficult. To deal with this problem, West Yorkshire Police has drawn up a list to help agencies, carers and young people provide the police with the intelligence they need to make convictions through phone-based intelligence. Intelligence is gathered and used in situations where there may be no evidence available or the victim is unable or unwilling to provide a police statement. This occurs in the vast majority of cases of sexual exploitation. Therefore, the opportunity to provide information as intelligence means that the police can build a comprehensive picture over a period of time and act upon it. This could interrupt and disrupt criminal activity in which young people are being exploited.
Child sexual exploitation intelligence includes details on suspects such as their names and nicknames, details of phone numbers and mobile phones used by suspects and details of any text messages or phone calls made by them or to them. It also includes details of locations where offences have taken place or which the suspects or victims visited, and dates and times that incidents of child sexual exploitation occurred—in fact, any links between suspects, their cars or locations and young people identified as being at risk of child sexual exploitation.
There are examples of prosecutions of men using Facebook to groom children for exploitation, but the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre—CEOP—also warns of the use of smartphones and 3G technology. CEOP warns that online child sex offenders are using more intimidating tactics to engage with, exploit and abuse children and young people. Reports of this are increasing. Text messaging is used as grooming behaviour, and this is also increasing.
This is not just an issue of the loss of child sexual exploitation evidence, but there are also similar concerns around deleting messages or data which may have been used for bullying or harassment. It is important that victims of cyberbullying are believed and get the support they need, and that the bullies are dealt with appropriately. Therefore bullying messages received on mobile phones should not be deleted in case they can be used to support victims of such harassment.
Conviction rates for child sexual exploitation remain disappointingly low. In 2009 Barnardo’s was aware of 2,893 victims—perhaps just the tip of the iceberg—yet there were only 89 convictions. Organisations such as CEOP and Barnardo’s are committed to making everyone at every level become aware of how we can all identify child sexual exploitation. They believe that texts and e-mails will be one way of showing behaviour over time.
The power in the Bill to erase data will be new to teachers. Therefore, the Secretary of State's guidance should be explicit about what data can be erased and should advise caution. I ask the Minister and Secretary of State to consider giving the guidance that teachers must record the nature of any material erased and the reason for its erasure. This should be done with a witness present.
Lord Peston
My Lords, I support these amendments, but I am bound to say it is with a heavy heart. I will explain why. I have been involved with education, educational philosophy and research into education for more than 50 years. When I think about what I believed when I started out, I realise that I must have been hopelessly naive. If I had been asked what the nature of a school was, I would have said that it was a place where people went to learn and teach, where values were developed and where one’s life was enhanced. Central to that were the teachers themselves. All of us know the difference that they have made to our lives. When I consider this group of amendments, I am forced to ask myself what has happened to our society. This section of the Bill, headed “Discipline”, could have been written for a prison or a concentration camp—but it is written for a school. It is also simply a repair job: at best, an Elastoplast. It does not solve any fundamental problems whatever.
I believe strongly that my noble friend's amendments do improve matters. They certainly make the Bill much more sensible and deal at least to some degree with the role of the teacher and the relationship between the teacher and the pupil. However, the fact remains that what is stated totally changes what some of us feel the teacher/pupil relationship should be. I do not believe for one minute that the Minister will accept the amendments, but it would be right to do so. It would certainly be right to test the opinion of the House on these matters. Some day, despite Governments of all parties kicking and screaming about these things, we will have to face up to the problem of social improvement and ask what has happened to our way of life and whether there is anything we can do about it.
Baroness Morris of Yardley
My Lords, I rise briefly to support the amendments—in particular Amendment 10 —and to say how much I welcomed the words of the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland. In a strange way, I do not think that there is a difference of purpose across the House about what we want to achieve. We understand the importance of good discipline in schools and we want to equip teachers to be able to secure that discipline in their classrooms, and for head teachers to lead in that. There is no difference of opinion here. We are talking about the necessary safeguards that need to go alongside it in an area as crucial as physical contact and search.
I remind Members of the House how we have already come unstuck on this in a different context, 10 or 15 years ago. There is confusion among teachers in schools about touching children at all—even about putting their arm around a child's shoulder to comfort them, patting them on the head to say well done, or acting in a human way towards children, however small they are and whatever their needs. We politicians know that what teachers think is the case is not the case in law and has never been the intention of Governments of any party. I remarked in Committee on the Bill that the Minister was sending out further guidance on the circumstances in which teachers could appropriately touch a child. It sounded just like the guidance that I sent out 10 years ago—and it will probably be just as ineffective. The lesson we learn from this is that once practice is embedded in a school and a set of things is believed by teachers, it is very difficult to shift it. What you cannot do in an area such as this is to set it in motion and then try to back-track at a future date. The guidance, the intention, the parameters and all those things have to go out clearly with the initial message, otherwise teachers get fearful and do not know what is expected of them and the law becomes confused. That is why when I look again at Amendment 10 in the light of the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, I see it as letting the Government stick to their wish to empower teachers to keep discipline. It has regard to the necessary safeguards for children, but does not make the mistake we made by not adding the clarity that we need at this early stage when we are giving teachers new powers. The Minister may reflect on that in his response.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I have listened to this debate with mounting unease, concern and sadness. It is just over 50 years since as a young graduate schoolmaster I began to teach in a school. I listened with great interest and considerable sympathy to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Peston, a few minutes ago. What has happened over those 50 years is that we have seen the destruction of childhood innocence and an erosion of trust. We have seen a situation where normal and reasonable behaviour—to take up another point that was made earlier—has to be legislated for. It is a very sad day. I do not know exactly what the solution is, but we must reintroduce trust into our lives at all levels, if we possibly can. We have got to be able to trust parents and those who teach. The way in which those who teach have been deprived of virtually all sanctions and all powers to discipline children is something the Government are seeking to address in the Bill, as their predecessors sought, very reasonably, to address it.
We have reached a very sorry state when we have to legislate for searches and decide when they are permissible and when not. I have one overriding feeling here. It is that if legislation seeks to prescribe and proscribe in too great detail we are continuing on a very slippery slope. I have great sympathy with the Minister’s desire to have notes of guidance to give advice, but at the end of the day we must be able to trust head teachers in schools to orchestrate discipline within those schools and to know what it is proper for children to bring to school, how they should be dressed and how they should address those who teach them, because the absence of any form of respect in many schools is at the root of the problems within those schools. Let us move towards a situation where in all schools, as in some that we have read about recently—sink schools that have been rescued and become beacon schools—we really trust those who are in charge to behave normally and reasonably, and have the expectation that those they teach will behave normally and reasonably and that the parents do likewise.
Just to take up one point that has been alluded to, I do not believe that any child of any age should be allowed to have a mobile phone in his or her possession during school hours. It may be necessary to have possession of a phone as a means of communication outside because of transport and all the rest of it, but they should leave it in a secure place—a locker—when they get to school and remove it when they go, but not be allowed to have it in school. It is entirely permissible to examine those instruments if there is reasonable ground to suppose that they are being misused in the way to which the noble Baroness referred a few moments ago.
I close my random remarks, which I was not intending to make but felt provoked into making, by saying that unless we can reintroduce trust and recreate a climate where childhood innocence is regarded as a precious commodity, we are not going to achieve what I think in all parts of the House we want to achieve.
Lord Elton
My Lords, since we are on the subject of context in these amendments, I rise very briefly to say how exceedingly complicated that context is and how it needs to be kept in mind. If there was perfect discipline in every school, none of this legislation would be necessary. Why has it been lost? Has human nature changed? No, it has not. Has the perception of Governments and lawyers changed as to what is acceptable behaviour? Yes, it has.
The noble Lord, Lord Baker, is no longer in his seat, but back in 1988 he had a problem and asked me to write a report on discipline in schools. Actually, I commend it to the Government again; it remained on shelves for many years. Basically, you have to start discipline preferably before a child comes into school and when it comes into school. It is not beating them, it is managing their behaviour. I suggest that what the Government need urgently to do, if things have not changed since the days when I was better in touch with these things, is to see what teachers are taught in colleges of education about how to do that.
When I began that inquiry, I was told by every teacher training college in the country that of course they taught classroom management. We then did a survey of those they had actually through their hands in the past 15 years and found that only one of them did. All the others said they did it as a cross-curricular subject. I discovered this ahead of the report because I was a teacher myself and I finished up teaching in a college of education. I lost the attention of my adult class, quite unexpectedly, halfway through a term and I asked them, “What are you thinking about?”. They said, “We are thinking about our first teaching practice next week”. I said, “You needn’t bother, you know far more than any of the children will and all you have to do is see they behave properly”. “How do we do that?”, they said. I said, “The Department of Education will have told you—hasn’t it?”, and nobody said a word. So we abandoned the French Revolution and moved into classroom management.
I am becoming garrulous. I merely want to say that these measures are necessary because, broadly speaking, in an enormous number of schools teachers have really lost control of how the children behave in the classroom. They began to do that in the 1960s with child-centred education. We are drawing back from that now but the senior ranks in many of our schools are actually the products of that who have now reached the top of the teaching tree, and remedial action is necessary. Therefore, I think that we are right to be discussing these issues and I am very interested to hear what my noble friend will say about how we are going to put discipline back into the classroom.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, this has been an extremely interesting debate about a very serious subject, which has encouraged a lot of your Lordships to look back at better times when it would seem that it was somewhat easier to make the right decision. We have to face the fact that things have moved on. I particularly support the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, because it seems that what was being said about the guidance, and indeed what the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, said, is probably fairly accurate in that it needs tidying up. My reading of the guidance was that teachers had the right to refuse to take part in searches, so there is at least that aspect in which a teacher can exercise their own feelings and responsibility about these things.
The points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, were worrying. It may well be that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, is right, that if every school could agree a principle—and maybe that should be written into the Bill—that no telephones are to be brought in, or that they must be left at the gate and picked up on the way out, that might be an answer. I suspect that it would not be as simple as it might sound. Alas, we have got to look practically at what we do now. I do not envy the Minister and his team, because to get it right for this current moment is a very important but difficult job.
Lord Storey
My Lords, I was not going to speak in this debate, but so many important comments have been made that I feel that I want to add my few words.
I very much agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, that this is about safeguarding both the child and the teaching staff. I also agree with the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, that we need to engender trust in a school. The noble Lord, Lord Elton, reminded me about his report on discipline, which I remember quite well. I remember having to write an essay on it—so he is to blame.
The problems of discipline in schools are not just to do with pupils. They are to do with that group of people we were talking about in a very positive way: parents, and—dare I say it?—the legal profession. You can just imagine a situation that happens daily: that of a teacher, say in primary school, who in innocence says “Come on, hand over that game you’ve got in your pocket”, stupidly goes to reach for it, and the next thing is that there is a legal action. So all that trust has evaporated.
The guidance has to be very clearly laid down. Pupils should not have mobile phones in classrooms—and this is hugely important. It is very dangerous, for all the reasons that we have heard. Of everything that has been said, that is probably the most important, because it is not just about grooming children, but about other pupils bullying each other through mobile phones.
So why on earth schools are allowing children to have mobile phones in schools, I do not understand. In small schools, they can be handed into the school office or, as has been suggested, go in a locker. I hope the guidance is very clear. It is about ensuring the protection and the safeguarding of the pupil, as much as the safeguarding of the teacher.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
My Lords, I had not intended to speak, but it was in hearing the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, talk about clarity, that reminded me that I had had a letter from someone in a school. Your Lordships will understand why I quote it:
“Please could you register my welcome overall of the trust put in teachers and school leaders to manage behaviour more effectively in schools and colleges. However, I am concerned that the measures taken to improve the authority of teachers are being seen as threats to the child and to the member of staff concerned. Searches should be allowed by staff and good practice ensures that a teacher will ask for a witness for the search”.
It shows that the common sense that the ministry is trying to encourage exists in schools, but that there is a lack of clarity. The real need is for clear guidance, and indeed the amendment put down by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, would help people to understand. I think it was the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, who said that there are so many things that are believed in schools that are not actually the law or statute.
This has been a wonderful Second Reading debate, I have to say. I have thoroughly enjoyed some of the speeches, and not having had an opportunity to get to the actual Second Reading, I am now taking my opportunity, too. We have to remind ourselves that not everything was wonderful in the past, and that there are some things that are significantly better. One thing that is significantly better is child safeguarding. We abandon anything that continues to safeguard children, as the noble Baroness was saying with regard to Barnardo’s, at our risk.
I am not an educationalist but I suspect that my pedigree in safeguarding is probably as good as anyone in this House. I encourage the Minister to think carefully before abandoning those controls where it is quite clear that teachers have the common sense to think that they need a witness. But it is not always the teachers who end up doing these things. I have known of caretakers being asked to “take that mobile phone off young Jones”. It is about people who would have other motives for touching a child.
I also believe that no male adult should handle a young woman aged 12 or 13, and certainly not without a witness. If you talk to young girls, they say that they feel that that is an assault on their dignity and it is something that goes with them. I encourage the Minister to think carefully about ensuring that we have either the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley—to confirm to the Front Bench, I am suggesting one of the amendments—or extremely clear guidance for teachers so that they know that they do not search in unsafe situations.
Lord Hill of Oareford
Perhaps I may start with some general comments about some of the themes that have emerged. I agree with what the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, said about her underlying point, consistency, and the difficulty that we as legislators have in translating what we are trying to do in classrooms so that teachers know where they stand. That links to the point again about clarity in guidance, to which I will come back later.
My noble friend Lord Cormack, who has not spoken on the Education Bill previously, made a powerful speech about the importance of trust, which we all share. By the same token, some of the discussion today highlighted tensions between wanting to get to a position where we trust professionals more—and I think we would all agree with that—while wanting to have our own safeguards in place to ensure that in trusting them the things we most care about are protected. That is a difficult balance. My noble friend Lord Storey also threw in parents and lawyers for good measure.
It is absolutely right that schools are operating in a far more complicated environment than was the case in the past. I very much recognise the description given by the noble Lord, Lord Peston, of the purpose of a school, which I think still holds true today. But they certainly have to operate in a far more complicated world where they are asked to do much more by society than was once the case. I recognise that there are anxieties, which I will attempt to address, about the extension of the powers on search. I see them as an attempt to provide greater space in a very small number of exceptional cases for professional judgment to be exercised by heads and teachers, and to try to enlarge the space where we can trust heads to make the judgments that they believe are right to safeguard the children in their care.
There was broad agreement that we want head teachers and teachers to be able to ensure the safety of the children. In fact, it is important to say that most schools are safe places in which children can learn. It is important to get that in proportion and not to imagine that we are confronted with a problem that does not exist—it is important to focus on the problem that does exist.
When the previous Government introduced searching legislation, they recognised that unfortunately there are instances where children have items that can cause harm or injury to themselves or to others. Under existing law, members of school or college staff can search for a number of harmful items, including knives and weapons, alcohol, illegal drugs and stolen items. We are proposing a small extension to those powers so that teachers can keep all potentially harmful items out of the classroom.
I want to set out briefly, on the record, the safeguards within the legislation that ensure these powers are used appropriately. A search of a student without their consent can only be carried out in certain circumstances. First, the staff member conducting the search must be designated by the head teacher or the principal. I agree that the head teacher should consider the skills of any staff member they are designating, and I am sure that most will do so. In the light of views that were expressed in the debate on this issue in Committee, we have taken on board the recommendation that, when designating a member of staff, the head teacher should consider whether that member of staff needs any additional training. That recommendation is included in the department’s published advice to schools.
Secondly, a member of staff must reasonably suspect that the pupil is in possession of a prohibited item. A pupil cannot be randomly searched on a whim. Thirdly, staff may not require the student to remove any clothing other than outer clothing. These conditions—which are in law—will remain unchanged. It is also the case that a search can only be carried out by someone of the same sex as the student and in the presence of a witness except—and this is the change which we are seeking to make—in certain emergency situations. The requirement that the searcher is the same sex as the pupil and that a witness is present will continue to apply in nearly all searches, as a number of noble Lords have argued. Where it is practical to summon a staff member of the same sex as the pupil and a witness then a teacher wishing to conduct a search must do so. There is no disagreement at all on that.
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
We have had a good debate on this set of amendments and once again we have explored some of the items that we considered very thoughtfully in Grand Committee. The important point to make is that we already have legislation on this issue. It is legislation that has been crafted over many years, it is carefully balanced and it does many of the things that noble Lords around the House have been talking about in terms of balancing the rights of parents, teachers and pupils. It goes some way towards doing what my noble friend Lady Morris considered, which is safeguarding pupils. I accept that that has to be at the heart of this.
What we are confronted with is a Bill that extends powers which already exist, and we are trying to reflect back to the Government the fact that if they are going to extend those powers, they still have to maintain the balance between all the rights we have talked about. I understand the noble Lord’s points about the role of guidance and, as someone quite rightly pointed out, in previous Governments we provided it as well. But guidance has a role to expand on the core principles set out in legislation. I think that that is the issue at heart here. We have lost sight of the core principles in terms of searches, discipline and how all that is carried out. We are attempting to redress the balance.
The noble Lord talked about training and the guidance, which has come out relatively late. I point out to him that, on the issue of training, the guidance states:
“There is no legal requirement for a head teacher or authorised member of staff to be trained before undertaking a ‘without consent’ search”.
I hope that, when the guidance is worked on, that wording will be reflected on further and redrafted into a more positive statement about the need for training. I certainly feel that the view of the House is that it is important. However, the noble Lord has gone some way to reassuring us on the point.
I come back to the more fundamental points that we have been addressing: whether it is right for these searches to be carried out alone, whether a witness needs to be present, and to some extent the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, about the need for same-sex searches. Our key point is that a witness is the key, core and fundamental protection of the rights both of the pupil and of the teacher. A number of noble Lords around the Chamber have talked about teachers being concerned about the extended role being placed upon them. They were fearful of their role and they are becoming more fearful of the expectations that are being laid on them. We have not heard of any pressure coming from teachers demanding this additional power. If anything, they are saying that they do not want the extra burden and responsibility. The issue of having a witness present is absolutely fundamental, and I shall return to it in a moment.
Finally, Amendment 10 concerns school rules. Again, the debate around the Chamber has highlighted how easy it is, if we are not careful, for rules from school to school to vary quite considerably. We have already heard that the rules for maintained schools may be different from independent schools, which in turn could be different from academies. Where is all this going in terms of a kind of consensus about what is right and what is wrong? All we have asked for is that the Secretary of State should issue guidance to specify what would be prohibited items in the broadest sense so that parents throughout the country would have confidence that there was some unanimity across different schools.
Our position is this. On Amendment 6, the noble Lord has gone some way to reassure us, and therefore I shall withdraw it shortly. But in doing so I give notice that we intend to divide the House on Amendment 7, which relates to the issue of a witness being present at all times. We think that that is a fundamental, core principle that should be on the face of the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 6.
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
My Lords, I wish to test the opinion of the House.
Lord Low of Dalston
“( ) Regulations must make provision that if a pupil has been excluded from school for a fixed period on two or more occasions in a 12 month period or is at risk of permanent exclusion, a head teacher shall ensure that—
(a) there is an assessment of whether that child has unidentified learning needs;(b) there is a review of the effectiveness of the special educational provision being made if that pupil has identified special educational needs;(c) there is a review of the effectiveness of the reasonable adjustments being made if that pupil has disability.”
Lord Low of Dalston
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 24 to 28. I shall speak as briefly as I can because these amendments had a good airing in Committee. However, I was unfortunately unable to be present when they were discussed and so I will take this opportunity to say a few words on them—not just for the sake of it, of course, for the Government have come some way to meet us, but because some concerns remain, which have been raised with me by the Special Education Consortium, on which it would be helpful to have reassurances from the Minister.
The amendments relate to Clause 4, which toughens up the arrangements for pupil exclusions. Clause 4 makes significant changes to the appeals process and removes the power from the proposed independent review panel to order the reinstatement of an excluded child except in cases of direct disability discrimination. There are many children with special educational needs who are not the subject of disability discrimination, and the purpose of the amendments is to introduce safeguards into the exclusion process to deal with their case.
Amendment 15 makes provision for regulations to require that where a pupil has been excluded from school for a fixed period on two or more occasions in a 12-month period, or is at risk of permanent exclusion, a head teacher must ensure that there is an assessment of whether the child has unidentified learning needs, that there is a review of the effectiveness of the special educational provision being made if the pupil has identified special educational needs, and that there is a review of the effectiveness of the reasonable adjustments being made if the pupil has a disability.
Amendments 24 to 28 would require regulations to make provision for a number of things: for parents to request a SEN expert to advise the panel on SEN issues; about the information parents are given on their right to request a SEN expert; the skills and qualifications that a SEN expert must have; the ability of the SEN expert to review the needs of the child and whether the school has put the correct support in place; the duty of the school to co-operate with the work of the SEN expert; and the ability of parents to select a SEN expert of their choice.
The Government have moved some way on these issues from where they started in the other place and it is clear that they do not wish to disadvantage children with special educational needs. Indeed, they have published draft guidance on exclusions which recognises the need to protect children with SEN, which I very much welcome. However, there are some outstanding concerns. The guidance is clear that head teachers should, as far as possible, avoid permanently excluding children with SEN. However, the guidance needs to be more specific and detailed at this point. Have all the steps been taken which need to be taken? This could include additional adjustments, critical extra support or other interventions which may play a crucial role in preventing exclusion. The guidance moves too quickly to discussing alternative placements without encouraging schools to consider whether they have answered all these questions. I should be grateful if the Minister could address this point in his response.
The guidance focuses heavily on preventing exclusions of statemented pupils. This is, of course, very important. However, it is important also to bear in mind that some 18 per cent of children, or roughly 1.4 million children, with a special educational need do not have a statement. I ask the Minister to consider extending the guidance to address the needs of children on school action or school action plus. Children on school action plus may have substantial needs but do not have the protection afforded by a statement of SEN. Such children are more than 20 times more likely to be excluded than the rest of the school population and so additional safeguards are clearly needed in their case.
I turn now to the remaining concerns about the SEN experts and the role they could play in advising an independent review panel. I welcome the clarity that the draft guidance brings in relation to the impartiality and expertise of the SEN expert, but retaining parental confidence is key to the success of these reforms and it is with that in mind that I have tabled these amendments again. The school’s role is key here and yet the guidance does not make clear that schools should be required to inform parents of their right to request a SEN expert when their child is excluded. The SEN expert clearly has a vital role to play in protecting the interests of the child and yet the guidance states in terms that the expert’s role does not include making an assessment of the pupil’s special educational needs or making a judgment about whether the school has taken the appropriate steps to meet the child’s needs.
As I have said, I welcome the guidance’s clarity on the need for an expert on special educational needs. However, it remains unclear whether this expert will have the requisite understanding and experience of the disability or SEN in question. I ask the Minister to consider revising the guidance to make it clearer that “expert” should also mean “relevant”.
My final point on the expert relates again to parental confidence. As it stands, the expert will be paid for by the local authority if the child is in a maintained school and by the school if in an academy or free school. While I welcome the guidance stating that local authorities should take reasonable steps to offer a choice of expert and that the expert cannot be connected with the case, it remains a concern that the paymaster should be the institution that the parent is appealing against. If it could be made unambiguously clear that parents could have the expert of their choice, that would surely help to bolster confidence in the independence of the system. I hope that the Minister can give me some reassurance on this point and on my other points as well. I beg to move.
Lord Touhig
My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Low, who has made a powerful case articulating the concerns that still exist despite the good debate that we had in Committee on exclusions. I do not intend to rehearse the arguments deployed in Committee, save to remind the House that the Government’s equality impact assessment states that 72 per cent of all pupil exclusions from schools in England are youngsters with special educational needs. That 72 per cent is a very high figure, and one we need to keep in mind as we seek to resolve these issues.
Yesterday, I attended the launch of Finished at School, arranged by an organisation called Ambitious about Autism. This document poses the question:
“Where next for young people with autism?”.
It contains a number of case studies and poses questions about post-16 education for youngsters with learning difficulties, particularly with autism. Among its questions, it asks for a clear, legal right to educational support up to the age of 25 for young disabled people. It says that a funding system that gives young people and families more information, choice and support is needed, as is a cross-government focus on outcomes and destinations for young disabled people, and a further education workforce with the skills to support young people with autism to achieve their ambitions. Sarah Teather, the Minister of State responsible for these matters, was present and warmly welcomed the report yesterday. She said that the Government had every intention of living up to the ambitions set out in their Green Paper. All this is to be welcomed.
Before any noble Lord questions how my argument is relevant to the question before us now of exclusions, I will explain. In England, we have 66,000 young people with autism in the 16 to 25 age group. Yet only one young person in four with autism in that age cohort continues their education beyond school. That is why we have to do everything possible to reduce the huge level of SEN exclusions from our schools. For three-quarters of young people with autism, attending school until the age of 16 is the only education experience they will ever have. That is why we have to be so careful about exclusions.
On Amendment 15, as the noble Lord, Lord Low, pointed out, the draft guidance makes some welcome noises on this but the trigger for assessment is not as clear as this amendment would make it. On Amendments 24 and 25, it would appear that parents will be told that they can request a SEN expert of their own but we do not know how this will happen or what information parents will be entitled to receive in order to achieve that.
On Amendment 26, the guidance makes it clear that the SEN adviser should have appropriate training. However, like the noble Lord, Lord Low, I am still concerned that that training should be specific to the disability of the person with SEN being examined. On Amendment 27, the guidance is clear that it will not be the role of the SEN expert to undertake an assessment of needs, which is somewhat disappointing. Finally, on Amendment 28, it will be for the local authority to select the SEN experts for the parents to choose from.
There are still many questions to be asked and answered on the whole issue of the exclusion of youngsters with SEN. I look forward to the response from the Minister, who has demonstrated to me, and no doubt to others across the House, that he is listening. He certainly did that in Committee. I hope he listens to us now.
Baroness Warnock
My Lords, I strongly support the amendment introduced by my noble friend Lord Low. There is often a tendency to treat SEN as if it contains only one group of people. I have had many letters from parents who find that the school may think that anybody is an expert in their child’s particular special need as long as they are an expert in SEN. That is far from true. This is particularly noticeable in the case of autistic children where understanding the management of autism, as far as it can be managed particularly in the school context, is a very specialist subject. That is why so many autistic children are excluded from school. It is of enormous importance that the SEN expert, who must quite properly be on the panel, should be an expert in the relevant disability.
It is also important that one should not think of SEN as completely contained in those children who have statements. As my noble friend said, at least 18 per cent of people with disabilities do not have a statement. Long ago, this 18 per cent without a statement came to be known as the “Warnock children” because I was particularly interested in them. They were often neglected because their disability was not serious enough or perhaps did not seem so. Therefore the local authority had no statutory duty to provide for them.
Exclusions, which I am sure all noble Lords agree should be avoided as much as possible, need to be carefully scrutinised for any child who is on the lower grading of disability. This often involves children with behavioural and emotional difficulties, who are likely to behave badly at school and incur either temporary or ultimately permanent exclusion. I welcome the improvements that have been made and I think that things are going in the right direction. However, these questions about children who do not have statements and about the choice of relevant expertise on the panel are of the greatest importance.
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
My Lords, I speak to Amendments 17, 19, 21 and 29, and also support Amendment 15 and Amendments 24 to 28 that the noble Lord, Lord Low, and my noble friend Lord Touhig have spoken to. In particular, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Low, that Amendments 24 to 28 have, in quite large measure, been addressed by the guidance that we received from the Minister yesterday. I am pleased that, certainly at the stage of the review panel, which is the final stage in the process of reviewing an appeal, the Government have seen fit to make provision for most of the things demanded in Amendments 24 to 28: for a special needs expert to give their views, for the parents to have a right to that, for the parents to be told about that, and so on. That is all welcome.
However, the Government guidance does not address Amendment 15, which is similar in intent to our Amendment 17. They both seek to ask—the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, just alluded to it—whether we can make sure that relevant information, particularly about a child’s special educational needs and especially unidentified needs, has been brought into the process not at the final stage of the review panel but at the very earliest stage of the head teacher’s decision and particularly at the point at which the responsible body—that is, the governors of the school—has been asked by parents to review that decision.
Amendments 17 and 19, in particular, concern the exclusion of pupils who have unidentified special needs. There is a principle of natural justice underlying the amendments: that where a child is at risk of exclusion, the decision-maker should have the full facts about any special educational needs—not at the final stage, as I say, but at the earliest possible stage. This is particularly important where needs have not been identified, so these amendments would ensure that children with special educational needs but whose needs have not been adequately addressed by their schools are not permanently excluded. In Amendment 17, that is by ensuring that when “the responsible body”—that is, the governing body—is making the initial decision on whether to affirm the head teacher's decision, it must,
“consider a report … from the special … needs co-ordinator”,
or expert. In Amendment 19, it is by ensuring that when the review panel is considering the case at the final stage, it has a report.
I accept that, alongside Amendments 24 to 28, Amendment 19 has largely been covered by the Government, which is great. Yet in relation to Amendments 15 and 17, while the Minister’s letter accompanying that guidance says that the responsible body as well as the review panel should take account of any relevant information in relation to pupils’ special educational needs when reviewing the decision to exclude there is, first, no requirement for the head teacher to take cognisance of that information when taking the initial decision to exclude and, at the level of the governing body in deciding whether to review that decision there is, secondly, no right for the parent to have a special needs expert. The guidance refers simply to the governing body having information on the child's special educational needs already held by the school. It does not precisely cover the circumstances where such needs have not been identified because it simply refers to the school making available to the governing body information that it already has, not seeking a wider assessment of the special educational needs that the child may have.
Surely it is better to have this expert view early in the process so that an exclusion may be prevented rather than only at the final stage, when a review panel is deciding whether to endorse the decision. That is particularly so given that the review panel does not, according to the Government's proposals, have the power to reinstate the pupil. I very much support Amendment 15 but if the noble Lord, Lord Low, decides not to press that amendment then I give notice that I would like to take the opinion of the House on Amendment 17, which would similarly bring the special needs expert person into the process earlier on to prevent the exclusions.
Amendment 21 would empower the exclusion review panels to require the schools to reinstate a pupil if they are satisfied that that is the right thing to do. We had a long debate about this in Grand Committee, when there was a very strong view across the Committee that this was a principle of natural justice—that if a decision made against someone is later found to have been flawed, that decision should not stand. Yet that principle is not upheld under the clause and the right to insist on the reinstatement of an unfairly excluded child is withdrawn.
In Grand Committee the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, among others, expressed similar concerns. It is rather surprising that the only amendment in relation to the power to reinstate has come from me and my noble friends, because I thought that the consensus of opinion in Committee was in support of that. I accept that heads may be in a difficult position if a panel were to reinstate, but we also had a sensitive discussion in Grand Committee about what should prevail in those circumstances. I think we agreed that given the impact on the child of having a decision by the review panel to reinstate, that is a far better outcome for the child, even if after discussion the child goes to another placement because of all the issues that have preceded that decision. It gives the child some rights in relation to flawed decisions which, at the moment, are not contained in the Bill.
Amendment 29, briefly, would require,
“a school to retain an excluded pupil”,
on its school roll,
“and to fund the pupil’s education until the pupil is no longer of compulsory … age”.
Our intention here was that the schools should retain financial responsibility but, more importantly, the responsibility for progressing that child and for their final outcomes in whatever alternative provision they went into. The intention was twofold: first, to give schools the opportunity to have a second thought before making the final decision on exclusion, knowing that they would retain responsibility for a child, as a kind of check and balance in that system and, secondly, to make sure that the school has some responsibility for the final outcomes for the child—even if the child goes elsewhere.
The Minister has sent me a letter and the department has issued a press notice on the pilots that the Secretary of State has announced, which are not the same as those proposed in our amendment but go some way to exploring the potential for schools to have responsibility for arranging an alternative decision. It is not the same as giving schools the responsibility of keeping a child on the roll. However, it involves the schools having the finance that goes with arranging alternative provision and the responsibility for ensuring the equality of that provision and for staying in touch, albeit more informally, with what happens to that child. I welcome that provision and I look forward to hearing the outcome of those pilots.
Although there is some movement in relation to Amendments 19 and 29 in the guidance, if the noble Lord, Lord Low, does not press his amendment to a vote, I would like to take the view of the House on Amendment 17.
Lord Sutherland of Houndwood
My Lords, I welcome the movement that there has been on the principles of Amendments 19 and 29 because they are sensible principles. The moves of the Government go some way to reassuring me there but I want to comment on Amendment 21, which is clearly a crux amendment in terms of overturning the powers that are specifically included under subsection (1) of the proposed new clause in Clause 4(2)—the power of a,
“head teacher of a maintained school”,
to exclude permanently.
I want to retain that power and I do not wish to give the review panel the powers to overturn it. The reason I give for that is that it would produce a virtually impossible situation for both the school and the pupil. The case would be a cause célèbre by the time it came to this stage and it would not do either any good. There is sufficient safeguard in the Bill for the school to be very careful before it moves to such an extreme conclusion. The safeguards come in subsection (4)(c) of the proposed new clause in Clause 4(2), where it is hinted—indeed, it is said explicitly at one point—that the review panel may consider the procedures of the responsible body as flawed,
“in the light of the principles applicable on application for judicial review”.
That seems a very serious warning to a responsible body, be it a head teacher or a governing body, before making such a final judgment.
I would hope that that would be sufficient to deter bodies from, not frivolously, but perhaps injudiciously or in some weakening sense, causing an individual to be excluded unnecessarily. The suggestion that the school would be considered responsible for the financial provision for the future education of that individual is a fair warning to the school. Even if the higher motive did not prevail, the lower one might well do so in the school taking responsibility for what could be a very expensive course of education. I beg to differ on Amendment 21.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, powerfully argued, we know that exclusion disproportionately affects some of the most vulnerable children in society. It affects particularly children with special educational needs or disabilities and we know that pupils with statements of SEN are eight times more likely to be excluded than an average child. That knowledge lies behind the amendments in this group, and I will try to address as best I can the concerns that underpin them.
There is agreement across this House that the goal of policy overall should be to reduce the number of exclusions by improving behaviour in schools. We are seeking to do that with these measures but we also know that there are many potential factors that contribute to a pupil’s behaviour. Therefore, there needs to be a wide-ranging response to this issue, which is why we are looking at trying to reform the whole exclusion process and trialling, as was mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, a new exclusion system in local authorities across the country. I will come back to that in a moment. Overall, the aims of our reforms are to try to support schools to intervene earlier to identify underlying issues; to ensure that proper consideration is given to pupils’ needs throughout the exclusion process; and that where a child has to be excluded, to ensure that they receive a decent education, suited to their needs, so that exclusion from a school is not an exclusion from a good education.
We are trialling this new approach over the next three years and are looking at making the schools taking part in the trials responsible for any pupil they exclude, and accountable for both their attainment and attendance. Schools will get a devolved budget from which they will be expected to commission suitable alternative provision for excluded pupils, holding providers to account for the quality of the education that a pupil receives. Schools will also be able to use this budget to intervene with pupils at risk of exclusion—trying to spot these issues before it is too late—to tackle any underlying causes of poor behaviour.
The evaluation of these trials will pay particular attention to the outcomes for pupils who are most vulnerable to exclusion, such as pupils with special educational needs or those—we have not mentioned them today but we did in Committee—from ethnic groups with a disproportionately high exclusion rate.
Lord Elton
My Lords, will the noble Lord forgive me as I may have misunderstood him? Did I understand him to say that there is a separate budget for children who have been excluded? If so, would this be additional? That would be an inducement to exclude which is not what we wish to encourage.
Lord Hill of Oareford
The idea behind the trials—I think it is based on what has already been happening in Cambridgeshire—is that the budget which currently sits with the local authority to pay for alternative provision would effectively be devolved to schools. Schools in that case would have a very clear incentive not to end up dumping a child in expensive provision but to do their best early on to make the best possible provision they can and seek to avoid exclusion. In Cambridgeshire the number of permanent exclusions fell when it tried this approach from more than 500 a year to fewer than 100. However, the experiences of these authorities also show us that this is not something to be rushed and that it requires careful implementation. Our view would be that we should test the approach rigorously, evaluate it and then legislate.
The point about an automatic trigger was raised by the noble Lords, Lord Low and Lord Touhig. We are seeking to promote early intervention through the use of multi-agency assessments. Following comments made at an earlier stage, we have already made clear in our guidance that schools should consider arranging such an assessment for pupils who display continuous disruptive behaviour. The noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, said that the issue of early intervention was not properly addressed in the draft guidance. I thought we had addressed it but it is draft guidance so I welcome her views on it as I would views from other noble Lords. We have reinforced the importance of multi-agency assessments in the draft I have circulated. I would argue that we should leave the detail of the trigger for such assessments to the discretion of schools. I accept that in a lot of cases two fixed-period exclusions might be an appropriate trigger but in some cases a single serious incident of out-of-character poor behaviour might be sufficient cause for concern.
With regard to allowing independent review panels to be able to reinstate, there are cases—the Government would argue and I think it is a point that has just been echoed by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland of Houndwood—where sometimes unfortunately exclusion is necessary as a last resort. We want a system which works for the education and welfare of all pupils at a school. It is right that, in some cases, schools should be directed to reconsider their decision to exclude a child. It is also right that a school should retain a level of responsibility towards a pupil, even if that pupil is excluded. However, a directed reinstatement is not necessarily in the best interests of an excluded pupil and, as we heard in Committee and from evidence given to this House and in another place from head teachers, it can have a devastating impact on the morale of the other pupils and staff.
We hope that our system of independent review panels will provide access to a quick, fair and independent process for reviewing an exclusion. However, we have put in safeguards in particular regarding the role of the special educational needs expert. Our revised guidance gives particular emphasis to ensuring the fair treatment of pupils who are most vulnerable to exclusion. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rix, who sadly is not here today, and to the noble Lord, Lord Low, who I am meeting again tomorrow on this subject. I am grateful to them for the meetings we have had on this issue and to the Special Educational Consortium. I am grateful for the very helpful contributions they have made while we have been developing the guidance.
The guidance makes clear that schools’ duties under the Equality Act not to discriminate against, harass or victimise pupils because of disability need be taken into account when deciding whether to exclude a pupil. It also says that schools must ensure that their policies, such as their behaviour policy, do not discriminate against pupils by unfairly increasing their risk of exclusion. We have retained the existing statutory guidance that, as far as possible, schools should avoid excluding a pupil with a statement of SEN. We have strengthened this position to make it clear that, where a school is considering the permanent exclusion of a pupil with a statement, it should begin a discussion with the responsible local authority, highlighting its concerns about the placement of the pupil in the school and the possible need for an alternative placement. I hope that these discussions would decrease the likelihood of pupils with a statement being excluded. Where a pupil does need to be excluded, we hope it will help support the local authority to ensure that appropriate provision is put in place quickly.
Amendment 17 relates to the governing body review of exclusion. We think that where a pupil is permanently excluded there needs to be a quick and fair process for reviewing this decision and that the process should give proper consideration to a pupil’s SEN. The governing body review provides an appropriate and proportionate first stage for reviewing a head teacher’s decision to exclude.
The revised guidance makes clear that governing body reviews should have access to relevant information about a pupil’s SEN, such as a statement of special educational needs and the outcome of any multiagency assessment arranged by the school. I agree that in many cases an important part of this information would be a report from the special educational needs co-ordinator, but there may be occasions where another member of staff is better placed to provide detailed information on a child’s special needs. I think that requiring information about the pupil’s SEN to be provided to the governing body is absolutely right but I do not want to prescribe precisely who needs to provide it.
Where a pupil is excluded, there must be a quick process for reviewing the decision. As we have said, we think that the governing body provides an appropriate and proportionate first stage for reviewing a head teacher’s decision to exclude. Where a governing body takes the difficult decision to uphold a permanent exclusion, there must be a right for a parent to ask for it to be reviewed by an independent body. Our independent review panels will allow that to happen quickly and will improve on the current system in providing extra help for excluded pupils with SEN. The introduction of an SEN expert offers a significant additional safeguard. The SEN expert would be free to submit written evidence to an independent review panel but they must be present at the review. We propose to place a requirement on independent review panels that, where appointed, they should seek and have regard to the expert’s views.
As regards the detailed points on regulations made by the noble Lords, Lord Touhig and Lord Low, I can reassure them that many of the things they are seeking to place in regulations will be there. Regulations will set out the right for all parents to request an SEN expert and put a duty on schools to notify parents of this right when a governing body upholds a permanent exclusion. We are clear that the expert must be someone with sufficient relevant professional expertise—that point was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Low—to be able to offer expert advice; for example, an educational psychologist. Because we do not want inadvertently to rule out someone who would be suitable for this role in a particular case, we intend that the details of who is eligible to be an SEN expert will be clarified in statutory guidance rather than in regulation, so that review panels have discretion to choose the most appropriate expert in each case. We have had very helpful discussions with the Special Educational Consortium about the sort of person who would be eligible for this role which we are keen to continue.
I agree with the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Low, that all parties to an independent review panel must have trust in the advice of the SEN expert. This is why we are proposing to make it clear that local authorities and academies should offer parents a choice of SEN expert in order to reinforce their confidence in the appointment. These expectations will be set out in statutory guidance. The guidance also makes clear that where a pupil has identified special educational needs, we expect schools to provide to the panel, and the expert, any relevant information about those needs and the steps that the school is taking to manage them. This includes a pupil’s statement of SEN, the annual review or the outcome of a multiagency assessment. Parents will also be able to submit written evidence explaining if they feel that their child’s special educational needs are relevant when making their case to the review panel.
Parents will have the right to request an SEN expert and the expert will be able to advise the panel on the parent’s case. That could include advising a panel on whether the actions taken by a school to identify or address a pupil’s SEN might be considered reasonable and whether a school might reasonably have been expected to intervene earlier in order to prevent the exclusion. We also propose to include an evaluation of the role of SEN expert as part of a study of the relative benefits between independent review panels and the First-tier Tribunal. This will provide us with the views of all parties on the effectiveness of the role of the SEN expert, including parents and pupils. We will consider the findings of this review in deciding whether there is a need to strengthen the regulations or guidance to ensure that the role is being used effectively.
I am sorry to have spoken at some length but these are important issues and I was keen to set out the Government’s response in as much detail as I could because I know that there have been concerns. I hope I have reassured noble Lords that we are taking steps to support schools to identify and address pupils’ special educational needs and we are committed to the effective use of the SEN expert. We believe that the new process, supported by the revised guidance, provides significant additional safeguards for pupils with SEN. I will continue to seek the input of noble Lords and the Special Educational Consortium in finalising the guidance. As I said, I am meeting the noble Lord, Lord Low, tomorrow and I am sure that we shall discuss the matter further then. With that, and looking forward to that conversation, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Low of Dalston
My Lords, I am very grateful to all those who have spoken, particularly to the Minister for his very full response. It should not have wearied the House as a lot of issues required to be addressed. The Minister has done justice to them in addressing them so comprehensively. In his response he has shown that he has been listening to the debate, as the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, requested. That being the case, it would be churlish not to withdraw the amendment.
The Minister has indicated that quite a lot of what these amendments are asking for will be included in regulations or statutory guidance and that there will be ongoing consultation with noble Lords and the sector about the form of those regulations and the guidance—at least, I take it that that is what there will be ongoing discussion about. The Minister has also shown that he was responsive to the points that were very well made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, about the importance of intervening early. The more we can get that into the guidance, the better. The more we can indicate that the guidance is meant to apply not just to pupils with statements but to other pupils with special educational needs who are at risk of exclusion, the better it will be. However, we can address that issue, along with others, in the ongoing discussions that we will have with the Minister. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Walmsley
“( ) requiring the responsible body to ensure that the pupil—(i) has an opportunity to make representations in relation to any exclusion under subsection (1) or (2), and(ii) receives relevant information that may be relevant to such representations in language capable of being readily understood by the pupil;”
Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 16 and to speak to all the other amendments in the group, apart from Amendment 31, because they are also in my name. As we have heard, Clause 4 proposes to change the arrangements for hearing appeals against permanent exclusions from school. Many issues arise in the case of the high proportion of children in this situation who have special needs. Clearly, a driver for this legislation has been those head teachers who have asked the Government to change the system because they have been subjected to what they believe are bad decisions and have lost confidence in it. In such a situation the logical thing is to change a bad system to a better system. Instead, I believe the Government are in danger of changing a bad system into an inferior system.
In Committee, I asked the Government to consider allowing all exclusion appeals to go to the First-tier Tribunal, where provision for children with special needs is appealed. That would mean changing to a system which one of my advisers said is light years better than what we have now, with a qualified solicitor of seven years’ experience in the chair. I hope that my noble friend the Minister will confirm on the record that the Government have agreed to pilot this idea and test it out. I am grateful for that, which is why I have not laid that amendment again but instead have laid this group of amendments which seeks to improve the Government's independent review panels in the mean time. However, I hope that my noble friend will confirm that the pilot will be a proper one and give the First-tier Tribunal the same decision-making powers that appeals panels have now, including to reinstate a child if, in its vast experience, it considers that an injustice has taken place, bearing in mind, as always, the best interests of the other children in the school as well as those of the excluded child.
Another idea has been put to me only in the past few days. I wonder whether the Government might consider whether the magistrates’ courts might have a role which does not suggest that either party has committed a criminal offence. They are used to dealing with young people and they understand how to judge difficult cases, so that is an idea worth considering while we are piloting alternatives.
Amendment 16 requires that a child has an opportunity to make his own representations to the IRP and receives all relevant information to help him to do so. I hope that this will also be allowed in the First-tier Tribunal pilot. It is now becoming good practice for children to be able to represent themselves in all sorts of spheres, according to Article 12 of the UNCRC, including in SEND tribunals. It would make sense for them to be able to do it here too.
Amendment 20 is about the training of panel members, which should be provided by accredited independent providers and cover all relevant issues, as outlined in my amendment. Amendment 30 defines what is meant by independent and accredited providers. Amendment 22 would ensure that the panel understands whether it was being asked to consider a case that should really be before SEND and then be able to refer that case to that First-tier Tribunal instead. Amendment 23 seeks to support the head teacher in a situation where the independent review panel has asked the school to reinstate the child, perhaps because it feels that exclusion was too harsh a punishment for the offence. Under the legislation, of course, we know that it cannot insist. However, in such a situation the head teacher may wish to put a condition on accepting the child back and involve the parents in ensuring the child’s future good behaviour in the interests of the other pupils in the school. That is why I have suggested that a parenting contract or parenting order might be a good idea—something else in the head teacher’s armoury.
Finally, Amendment 32 would provide a last resort for the child and his parent if he believed that the IRP had erred on a point of law. It would allow an appeal to an Upper Tribunal, rather than judicial review. An Upper Tribunal is a judicial body with expertise in this area. SEN cases already go to it and it consists of members of the senior judiciary. They look at a case on the basis of error of law or fact, so moving beyond the process under which the decision was taken, which is all that a judicial review can look at. The Upper Tribunal can look at a panel decision and remake it, or refer it back to the original panel.
Of course, we all hope that, if properly trained, the independent review panels would make sound decisions and that is what this clause seeks to ensure. However, no one is infallible, so this is a failsafe natural justice mechanism which I hope commends itself to my noble friend the Minister. I beg to move.
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
My Lords, I want to briefly speak to Amendment 31 in this group. This is a very simple amendment which would ensure that Clause 4 on exclusions and all that we have been talking about would apply also to academies. As the clause stands, it says:
“Regulations may make provision for this section and for regulations made under this section to apply, with prescribed modifications, in relation to Academies or a description of Academy”.
This amendment simply changes the “may” to “must”, so that the exclusions legislation and the guidance covered in Clause 4 apply equally to all state-funded schools. We cannot see any reason why these provisions, especially with the movement already made by the Government in guidance, should not apply also to academies. Why should the parents of children at academies not have the right to a special needs expert at the review panel? Why should the detailed requirements now in the guidance on the head teacher at the decision-making stage, on the governing body and on the review panel not also apply to the arrangements in academies?
Apart from the point of principle, there is a very practical reason why we need to do this. It is clear that the Government, in clauses we will discuss later—with presumptions that all new schools will be academies, with powers for the Secretary of State to intervene in schools that are in difficulties so that they immediately become academies—intend, as they have made clear, that as many schools as possible, if not all schools, should become academies in the fullness of time. If that is to happen, if we have many more schools becoming academies, I cannot see why we are discussing this legislation. If it does not apply to academies, it raises the question of the point of the guidance—it will become redundant if all schools become academies and this clause does not apply to academies. So we have very practical reasons for making sure, right at the outset, that this applies to all state-funded schools, including academies. I hope that the Minister will accept this amendment and I look forward to his response.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, let me start by talking about supporting pupils to participate appropriately in the exclusion process. I very much agree that that is important. The guidance on exclusions, which I have circulated, makes clear our view that pupils should be actively supported to participate at all stages of the process. In strengthening this aspect of the guidance we sought the views of the Children’s Rights Alliance for England. In response to its suggestions, the guidance now sets out: first, that head teachers should take steps to allow a pupil to present his case before an exclusion decision is made and take account of significant contributory factors, such as bereavement or bullying, that come to light after an incident of poor behaviour; secondly, that consideration should be given to how to enable and encourage the excluded pupil to participate in governing body reviews and independent review panels; and, thirdly, that independent review panels should be conducted in a non-threatening and non-adversarial manner. I am happy to discuss this draft guidance with my noble friend Lady Walmsley and will consider any suggestions that she may have.
I also agree with her point that schools should be able to agree with a parent clear measures to address poor behaviour when a pupil returns to school following exclusion. She talked about parenting orders and contracts. In fact, schools do have the power to agree a parenting contract or to apply for a parenting order, so I hope she will feel reassured that that is possible as things stand.
The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, raised the question of how the new exclusions process will be applied to academies. I can reassure noble Lords that the requirements will be the same on all state-funded schools, including academies and free schools. We have already updated academy funding agreements to reflect the changes proposed in the Bill, but the Bill also allows us to apply requirements that are placed on maintained schools equally on academies through regulations. I hope that that reassures the noble Baroness. As for training, which is an important issue, if a parent requests an independent review of an exclusion decision it is important that independent review panel members have the capacity to perform their role effectively. As is currently the case, local authorities and academies will be required to provide training to panel members every two years on specific areas set out in regulations. No individual will be permitted to be a panel member without receiving this training, which must cover issues such as the legislative requirements in relation to exclusions; the need for the panel to observe procedural fairness and the rules of natural justice; and the duties of the review panel under the Equality Act 2010.
I understand the point made by my noble friend about the quality of training that some local authorities may provide or commission, but I am not sure that we would want to introduce a requirement for independence which would prevent a local authority which can deliver high-quality training itself from doing so. We want to draw on best practice in training for other bodies that make important administrative decisions. To that end, we are talking to the Ministry of Justice about what more we can do to support this training to ensure that local authorities are clear about the new requirements and are able to develop or commission effective training.
Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for his response. On the issue of the pupil’s voice, I thank him for pointing out what it says in guidance. I will have another look at it to see whether I wish to feed in any suggestions for strengthening it to ensure that that is done. I think that a child should have a right to have his or her voice heard, rather than just have the head teacher encouraged to involve them in the process. It depends how strong the guidance is, when I come to look at it.
I am grateful to him for pointing out that parenting orders can already be used by head teachers and there may also be other measures that a head may wish to use as a condition of accepting a child back when there has been some sort of bad behaviour. I also very much welcome what the noble Lord said about the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones; that this will be made to cover academies and free schools through regulations. As she rightly said, if all schools became academies this clause would be totally unnecessary. On training, the Minister pointed out that local authorities and academies will have to provide it. In that situation, specifying independent training may not be appropriate. I accept that local authorities may well have the skills in-house and I would not want to press that particular amendment as I have had a good answer to it.
The Minister said that the parent may request an independent review panel instead of a First-tier Tribunal. I think it is more likely to be the other way round; they will ask for a First-tier Tribunal rather than an independent review panel if they can find a way of suggesting that their child has special needs. The decisions of First-tier Tribunals are likely to be better-quality decisions, but I will also leave that point. On the study, I had the impression that it was to be a pilot that would take place in a part of the country where a First-tier Tribunal could hear all the appeals. That is not what the Minister said in his speech, so I need to go away and inwardly digest the significance of that. As I say, that is not what I understood from behind-the-scenes discussions. I may feel the need to come back to that.
On the last resort, the Minister points out that decisions of the IRPs are indeed judicially reviewable, and in some cases the child might have the opportunity of going to the Secretary of State, depending on the sort of school he has been excluded from. I have to say that neither judicial review nor the Secretary of State is very accessible. Having been through the process of judicial review, I was fortunate to have the support of my husband who is a QC, so managed to get through the process successfully. Most parents of children who will be appealing against exclusions do not have the advantage of the support of my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford. I therefore do not think that the provision is quite good enough as a last resort. That is another matter that I want to think about but I will not press any of the amendments tonight. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
“( ) requiring the responsible body to consider a report about the pupil from the special educational needs co-ordinator when considering whether a pupil should be excluded;”
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
My Lords, I gave notice that if the noble Lord, Lord Low, withdrew his amendment, I would take the opinion of the House on this one, which has the same aim. It would bring forward to an earlier stage in the process a requirement that the governing body seeks the views and assessment of a special needs expert. It is in the interests of children to bring that forward earlier in the process. I beg to move.
India
(13 years ago)
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Lord Parekh
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of economic, political and cultural relations between the United Kingdom and India.
Lord Parekh
It is a great privilege to initiate this debate. Since it is a common practice to declare an interest, I begin by saying that I have close ties with India, I actively participate in the public life of India, I have been a recipient of two of its highest honours and I am a member of the Indian Prime Minister's global advisory committee.
For us in the UK, relations with India are of the utmost importance. Britain shaped the cultural and political physiognomy of modern India. Indians are a significant presence in the UK: in your Lordships' House alone, they number about 15. India is also an emerging economic power, destined to play an important global role in the decades to come. It is therefore important that we should periodically take a careful look at relations between the two countries and ask how they can be strengthened yet further.
At the political level, there is considerable co-operation and mutual respect between the two countries. The UK is greatly admired for its good sense and maturity. However, there are important areas of disagreement. Given India's colonial past and view of the world, it does not share our enthusiasm for high-minded so-called liberal intervention in the affairs of other countries. It is also critical of our fluctuating policy in Afghanistan. India has also felt, both in public and parliamentary debate, that we misused the United Nations resolution in Libya to justify action that the resolution did not justify, and undertook actions such as equipping the rebel army that the resolution did not permit. This is why India voted, and continues to vote, in a different way from us in the United Nations, though it has not been openly critical of us. We should appreciate this difference of view and not allow it to stand in the way of good relations. This is what most successive British Governments have often done.
India's ambition to secure a permanent seat on the Security Council is legitimate. It has more than 1 billion people and represents a distinct voice in the global conversation. Its claim is no less weighty than China's, and perhaps weightier than our own or that of France. It is only a matter of time before India's claim is met, since about 120 members of the General Assembly have indicated their consent. We can expedite this and earn ourselves good will by, for example, moving a resolution in the General Assembly, on our own or with France, as we did in the case of Libya and as we have done in other cases.
For years, India has been a victim of cross-border terrorism and has repeatedly complained about it—but we did not take it seriously until it began to affect us at home. Even now, we have not shown sufficient sensitivity to India's deepest concerns. I am not suggesting, even for a moment, that India's policy on, say, Kashmir is right. Like many in your Lordships' House, and many in India itself, I have been greatly critical of it, and I wish that it had been different. However, that cannot justify the horrendous acts of terrorism that we have seen in Delhi, Mumbai and other parts of India. We in Britain could give India greater active support and enable it to sustain its open and democratic society.
At the economic level, our ties with India are strong but could be stronger. India is the second largest investor in the UK after the United States. More than 500 Indian companies are based in the UK, and their businesses generate more than £14 billion. Our visa regime stands in the way of intracompany transfers, and some Indian companies have begun to move to Belgium. That cannot be in our interest. We are the fourth largest investor in India, but our investment is about 5 per cent of its total foreign direct investment. That is a very small amount for a country of our size and stature.
India is expanding its infrastructure in a very big way, involving nearly 1 trillion rupees. We ought to be involved in a much more active way than we are. India does not need to raise money in the UK market: it has enough indigenous resources. What it needs is equipment, expertise, consultants, efficient organisation and experience. That is what we are ideally equipped to provide. I am sorry to see that we have not been involved as actively and comprehensively as we should have been in India's programme for the development of its infrastructure, such as roads, airports and energy plants.
Of course, India needs to do more itself. It needs to improve its bureaucracy and carry through its programme of reform to make itself a more attractive destination for foreign investment. However, that has not stopped other countries such as Malaysia, France and the United States from stepping up their investment. There is no reason why we should not do the same. Sometimes I have a feeling that we—or at least our companies—tend to be averse to risk and seek a guaranteed return before we consider investing. That attitude needs to change. It is only when we seek active engagement with India that we will have a moral right to put pressure on it to reform its policies.
I now turn briefly to an area that matters a great deal to me and to India: the field of higher education. India is expanding its higher education at an unprecedented rate. Nearly 700 to 800 new universities are expected, along with new Indian institutes of technology and central universities. There is enormous scope for Britain. The UK India Education and Research Initiative has made a significant contribution but we need to do much more. I welcome the announcement of UKIERI stage 2, but it will need significantly enhanced financial support from public and private sources. It also needs to be given a new direction and greater depth. For example, British universities should be encouraged to set up campuses in India. I assume that the Indian Government’s attitude will be a little clearer than it is at present. There is no reason why our great universities cannot adapt academic departments in Indian universities and build up their teaching and research capacities.
India badly needs highly qualified faculty staff, and here too Britain can do much. For several years I have been urging a scheme. We have a large number of professors who either have come to the end of their career and retired or wish to take early retirement. There is no reason why they cannot be persuaded or incentivised to spend a lot of time in India. They have their occupational pension guaranteed here, and the Indian Government could be asked to top it up and make it attractive for them to spend either a few years in India, or part of every year teaching and guiding research in Indian universities. A rough calculation suggests that there are at least 3,500 university professors in the natural and social sciences who, I am told, would find it attractive to go and teach and do research in Indian universities. We ought to tap into that resource.
University education is not the only area of co-operation. Much can and should be done at the level of secondary education. There could be sizeable exchanges of teachers. That would benefit both teachers and students in the two countries, and would build strong and lasting intellectual and cultural bonds. If I may digress for a moment: I have a family foundation, and it has been arranging exchanges of teachers between a top school here and a top school in India. During the three years that the scheme has been going, I have been struck by the enormous enthusiasm that the English teachers have aroused in Indian schools. A teacher of English from a top school here teaching Shakespeare in an Indian school has been a remarkable experience for Indian students, and I know from my close contact with that school that many students are immensely excited and have turned to literature as their special field of interest. If one school can do that, imagine hundreds of schools being able to do that.
Finally, I think the Government have made a great mistake in restricting post-study work visas. Under the current scheme, students coming here can work for two years after graduating. This allows them to recoup part of their expenses and to contribute their skills to this country. It benefits both sides. The restrictions that the Government are proposing are very rigid. Last year, 39,000 students were guaranteed a visa to work for up to two years. The Government want to reduce that by half, which is extraordinary. Germany has decided that students who have graduated will be allowed to stay up to a year to look for an appropriate job if they have sufficient maintenance funds. New Zealand and Canada have done the same. I am really sorry that we seem to be creating a situation in which we are discouraging Indian students from coming here.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, for initiating this debate and offer him my apologies for arriving a tad late in the Chamber. The joy of Divisions is that you get talking to a colleague or two outside, and it is funny how time flies, but there we are. Life is like that sometimes.
The noble Lord spoke very eloquently about the importance of the relationship between India and Britain. There are many in this Chamber and in our country, and I count myself among them, who have a very strong love and affinity for India. In my case, it is very personal. Both my parents were born in pre-partition India. My mother is from Jodhpur and my father is from Gurdaspur, so the cultural and family ties to the great country of India remain very strong. I am also reminded that we as a country share many strong ties with India. The Indian diaspora is very strong here in the United Kingdom. It is one of the strongest ethnic communities, if not the largest, here in Great Britain, but with that comes responsibility. The Indian diaspora here has responded most positively. If you look around Britain today, there are success stories in every field. In commerce, business, education and, dare I say, even in politics, you will see the Indian, Pakistani and Bangladeshi diaspora—the subcontinent that was greater India—today flourishing in every element of British society.
One cannot move forward and talk about India and Britain without mentioning sport. If one reflects, the noble game of cricket resonates in both India and England, although if we reflect on the current results between the two countries, the less said the better.
In the time I have today, I wish to focus briefly on business and commerce. When my right honourable friend David Cameron became Prime Minister, one of the first trips he made, along with leading lights from Britain, was to India. One of the things you do in government is give a very strong statement of intent. That intent is very clear: Britain believes not only in commercial ties with India, but in India itself. It is the largest democracy in the world. It has shown inspiration in its culture, history and people.
If you look at the Indian economy, many would be proud of it. I was reading a recent report that said that India’s growth rate slowed somewhat this year. When you see that it slowed to 7.7 per cent, you perhaps reflect on the strength and vitality of the Indian economy. When we read about India, we look towards its emerging middle classes. It is a very aspirant and ambitious nation and is making great strides in IT and technology industries. In the past week or so, I have had the good fortune to attend a couple of events. One was the Institute of Directors event that was organised by the Indian IOD. It was most heart-warming to see that one of the key areas of focus for Indian business is climate change. That again shows that Indian commerce and Indian business are responding not just to the needs of their nation but to the global challenges of climate change.
Yesterday, I attended an event organised by India800. It is not an organisation that I was that familiar with, but it kept my attention. It focused not only on the successes in India, which are many, but did not forget that poverty is still an important challenge facing India. There are between 270 million and 450 million people still living on a dollar a day in India, so the challenges are immense, but that is where business and commerce count. Therefore, I believe that it is incumbent on the British Government to extend their ties to India: ties of culture, education, to which the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, referred, and, most importantly, business. We in Britain have a large stake in India, but let us not forget that India has a large stake in Britain as well.
Ultimately, when we reflect on the two nations that are India and Britain, we are tied together by history, by culture and, most importantly, by people. It was the noble Mahatma Gandhi who said:
“A nation’s culture resides in the hearts and in the soul of its people”.
And India resides in the hearts and in the soul of Britain.
Lord Loomba
My Lords, I, too, apologise for my late arrival. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, for initiating this important debate. As a British Indian, I am delighted to participate in the debate on UK-India relations today. India is the largest democracy in the world. It has a population of over 1.2 billion, which is 17.3 per cent of all the people living on this planet. It is more than the population of the US, the UK, France and Russia combined. They are the four permanent members of the UN Security Council, so why is India not a member of the council? I am pleased that the UK supports India's membership of the UN Security Council. Therefore, I ask the Minister: how can Britain work with other UN nations to ensure that India has its legitimate place on the Security Council?
India gained its independence 63 years ago, and since then it has gone from strength to strength economically and politically. A country that rose from poverty and illiteracy to become an advanced country is now competing with the rest of the world. India is now an economic power which is recognised all over the world. Recently, the US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said in New York that the US should learn from emerging powers like India and Brazil to put economics at the centre of foreign policy if it is to retain its position as a global powerhouse.
The legacy of the British Raj may have been a long freedom struggle, but it has created a lasting friendship between India and Britain. It is no surprise that India is now a major investor in the United Kingdom, and credit goes to people like Ratan Tata and many other businesses from India.
Our Prime Minister, David Cameron, and many Cabinet Ministers have visited India since the coalition Government was formed last year. These visits have seen the relationship between the two countries elevated in line with the Queen’s Speech in Parliament in May last year. I am also aware that many people in the House of Lords have close ties with India. My noble friends Lady Williams of Crosby and Lord Dholakia, and many other Peers, are heavily involved in working with India.
The strength of India can be explained in three words: democracy, diversity and diaspora—the three famous Ds. India is the largest democracy in the world. The transition of power between government and opposition has always been smooth. This may be a lesson to other neighbouring countries. This is what democracy is all about and this is what the world values.
India is a diverse country of many religions and cultures. Different religions are able to coexist side by side. The population of Muslims in India is greater than in Pakistan. Sikhs can build gurdwaras, Hindus can build temples and Muslims can build mosques, and they all live in harmony together. Let us not forget the Jewish community. The Paradesi Synagogue in Kochi in south India is the oldest active synagogue in the Commonwealth. It is important to note that in the past five years India has been represented by a Muslim president, a Sikh prime minister and a Catholic Christian leading the ruling party. Over 100,000 women play an important role in state and government initiatives.
There is a strong Indian diaspora of over 25 million people. They are contributing both economically and politically. We are loyal to Britain but our ties are never weakened as far as India is concerned. My own charity, the Loomba Foundation, is educating thousands of children of poor widows in India. I declare an interest as founder, chairman and trustee of the Loomba Foundation.
We want the Minister to inform us how he sees the links between India and Britain developing. We are equal partners in global politics and it is time to ensure that this is reflected in our politics on issues such as commerce, science and technology, immigration, defence, education and others.
Lord Bilimoria
My Lords, 2011 is the 20th anniversary of India’s economic liberalisation. In 1991, India was a closed, protected, insular, inward-looking country and economy. Over the last 20 years, India has taken a gigantic leap on to the world stage as an emerging global economic superpower. As we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, while our economy is struggling, India’s GDP is today is growing at over 7 per cent.
In 2003 I was appointed the UK chair of the Indo British Partnership by the British Government. Subsequently I was the founding chair of the UK India Business Council and am now its president. I have been privileged to accompany our current Prime Minister and both his predecessors on their visits to India, and the relationship between Britain and India is today stronger than ever.
Trade between our countries has increased from £5 billion a year in 2003 to £13 billion today. However, we are just scratching the surface. As the Indian Cabinet Minister Kamil Nath said when I shared a platform with him in London last week, investment has to be a two-way street, and we have seen huge investment going both ways. As the noble Lord, Lord Loomba, said, Tata is now Britain’s largest manufacturer, owning Jaguar Land Rover and Corus, British Steel. We have seen giant investments going the other way into India—for example, Vodafone.
My own business Cobra Beer formed a recent joint venture with Molson Coors, the last of the global giant brewers to go into India, and we now own the only brewery in the state of Bihar. I am a director of Booker Group plc, a FTSE 250 company, and the original sponsors of the Man Booker Prize, which is being announced this evening. At Booker we have just opened our second wholesale cash and carry branch in Pune after having opened up in Mumbai two years ago.
This investment has been happening but it is against a backdrop where actually very few reforms have been taking place in India. The major reform of air service between the two countries opened up in 2004, and now there are over 100 flights a week, but there are so many other barriers and so many reforms we are crying out for. As the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, said, foreign universities still cannot operate in India. British lawyers cannot operate and open up offices in India. British banks can only open a handful of branches a year. Our insurance companies can only own 26 per cent of Indian insurance companies. Lloyd’s of London is the world’s most important reinsurance market but India is the only major country in the world where it cannot operate to this day.
I chair the Cambridge-India Partnership Advisory Group and we have so many exciting plans for India, to build on our strong links going back to Jawaharlal Nehru and beyond. All these reforms, if they took place, would benefit India and would help it attract the $1.7 trillion of infrastructure investment it desperately needs. As members of the EU, we cannot even enter into a bilateral free trade agreement with India, but have to do this through the EU. Could the Minister inform us when the EU-India free trade agreement that we have been talking about for four years will actually be signed?
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, for initiating this really important debate. We sit together on the Prime Minister of India’s global advisory council. India is a country of two stories: an emerging global economic superpower on the one hand and a country where, as we have heard, hundreds of millions of people live on less than a dollar a day. India is a country where corruption has now reached tipping point in its prevalence and magnitude, leading to the emergence of Anna Hazare and the Jan Lokpal Bill.
There are those in the UK who say that we should not be providing aid to India. However, I have seen the amazing work that DfID, the British Council and our team at the British high commission are carrying out on the ground; for example, in Bihar, where we have our brewery. Bihar is a state of over 100 million people and one of the poorest states in India, but through sheer good governance it has been turned around over the last six years under the leadership of its inspirational Chief Minister, Nitish Kumar, and the Deputy Chief Minister, Sushil Modi. There are initiatives to provide bicycles for schoolgirls and uniforms and books for schoolchildren. The Chief Minister is recruiting 300,000 school teachers and introducing the Right to Public Service Act—all this is turning around the state. However, we are talking about a country of 1.2 billion people.
As a country, Britain is so close to India. Our relationship is wonderful and yet we shoot ourselves in the foot by introducing the new Immigration Rules. Until 2010, the number of Indian students had been increasing multifold. I am a member of the advisory board of the Judge Business School at Cambridge University and the Cranfield School of Management. Both institutions have seen a significant drop in the number of applicants from India, and I am hearing that the Indian students are saying, “Does Britain want us any more?”. What are we doing? Do we not want to attract the brightest and the best? Dr Manmohan Singh, India’s Prime Minister, is himself a graduate of both Oxford and Cambridge. My own family has been educated here for three generations. These are generation-long links.
What are the Government doing to rectify this situation? I am a member of the UK-India Round Table. I fought so hard for foreign graduates to work in the UK for two years after graduation, as the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, spoke of. There is a perception that this rule has been removed and this is deterring so many foreign students, especially Indians, as this is a way of earning extra money to pay for the expensive higher education and to gain some work experience in this country. To build bridges, can the Minister clarify the situation?
Our links with India are so strong, whether it is the armed forces, culture, sport, cricket or the four Indian Booker Prize winners. We could do so much more to further our political links; we could have more exchange between our two Parliaments. Could the Minister look into this opportunity to further our political links?
To conclude, the reality is that the whole world has woken up to “incredible India”. In the words of Dr Manmohan Singh:
“India is an idea whose time has come”.
India was highlighted in the Queen’s Speech by the Prime Minister as a country we want to have an “enhanced partnership” with. However, we need to do so much more. We are competing with the rest of the world to engage with India. Given our special relationship, we in Britain could do so much more to encourage British industry, particularly SMEs, to do business with India. If only India would implement all the reforms that have been on the cards for so long. If those two things happened, I would be happy, and in the words of Mahatma Gandhi:
“Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony”.
Lord Bhattacharyya
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Parekh for securing this debate, and I declare my interest as chairman of Warwick Manufacturing Group at the University of Warwick.
In this debate, it is worth recalling the long history of Indian innovation. Some noble Lords may have visited the Qutb Minar in Delhi and seen the Iron Pillar which stands there unrusted since its forging a millennium and a half ago. For an engineer, the knowledge that Indian metallurgists were able to produce rust-proof iron is an inspiration still worth studying today. If the West had had such technology then, the history of the world might have been quite different. This reminds me of an important truth: only innovation and partnership can drive global progress.
As time is short, I shall focus on the economic aspects of the relationship between India and the UK. Britain used to have a dominant position in Indian trade, but we now account for less than 1.5 per cent of Indian imports. India’s desire for economic independence and Britain’s post-war atrophy both contributed to decades of decline in our partnership. India was not an easy place to do business—but while Japan helped build the Maruti and more, Britain still stood for the Morris Ambassador.
Since the early 1990s, when the then Foreign Secretary liberalised India’s economy from the finance ministry, India has enjoyed huge growth, topping 8 per cent a year. Indian GDP has more than trebled in that time and per capita GDP has grown by over a thousand dollars. So it is no surprise that everyone is trying to woo India. This weekend I was in Mumbai, as I am once or twice a month, and the number of businesses and delegations there to drum up trade is astonishing.
The noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, anticipated this growth in 1993, setting up the Indo British Partnership. He was the first to consider India as equal, with the equally charismatic Richard Needham as Minister of State, with whom I had the pleasure of serving as a founding board member. The Indo British Partnership was a business-led initiative. Our partners were not the Government but the Confederation of Indian Industry. This gave British business a real profile for the first time, and our exports to India surged by 10 per cent a year in the 1990s, increasing to 14 per cent since the millennium. Yet this did not prevent our share of Indian imports falling from 6 per cent to a mere quarter of that. The perception was that Britain was more interested in Europe and the Atlantic alliance. What is more, the language we used was often counterproductive. Britain should not appear to be lecturing to India with haughty superiority—and it is still there. I hope the new Government will avoid such pitfalls. The early visit to India by David Cameron was recognised as a very good start.
I have persuaded a number of Indian businesses to invest in Britain, so may I offer a little advice on building such partnerships? First, we must understand how important Indo-British relations are to us. Take one example—a company which I brought to this country—Tata’s. Tata Group employs over 45,000 workers directly in Britain and supports a further 100,000 indirectly. The UK Tata Group spent over £700 million on R&D last year—this year it will probably be more than £1 billion. Yet a failure to see how we gain from these investments still affects British decisions. During the financial tsunami, loan insurance was requested by Tata but it was turned away, being an Indian company. People remember such slights.
Next, we must ask what we can offer our partner. Our science base, high-tech workforce, infrastructure and access to Europe complement our cultural strengths. I have escorted many Indian business leaders around factories in Britain and seen them become enthused by our technology and our workers. We have many hidden gems. But we make it difficult to invest in them by putting up needless barriers. Of course we need strong Immigration Rules, but we should show flexibility for those who have a lot to contribute.
India knows what this takes. In fast growing sectors of the Indian economy, like pharmaceuticals and biotech—today the biggest investment worldwide in India is in the pharmaceuticals and biotech industry—the world’s biggest companies are moving to India, bringing top people, even though India has many graduates. Indeed, 700,000 science and engineering students graduate each year in India. These numbers mean we must never think of India as just a home for low-cost outsourcing.
But quality counts more than quantity. In a knowledge-based economy, there is a global drive toward higher skills to meet shared challenges. India’s technologists are at the cutting edge of that charge. I came from an Indian university—the first Indian university of technology—and 95 per cent of my classmates went to America, because it was easy. When I go and see American companies and American universities, they are full of Indian students doing their masters and doctorates, and doing research. Leading US universities and technology businesses such as Google and Microsoft are being led by graduates of Indian universities like my alma mater, IIT Kharagpur.
We could seek to join these leaders in their current challenges and thus share in their future successes. In other words, we must welcome India here as well as sell Britain there. The coalition clearly wants to do business with India. It has made a strong start after about 12 years of neglect. I only hope it ensures that India wants to do business with us.
Lord Giddens
My Lords, I join other noble Lords in congratulating my noble friend Lord Parekh on having initiated this debate, along with Amartya Sen, who is one of the few intellectuals equally well known in India and in the UK, and of course across the rest of the world. He is one of our best ambassadors, linking the two countries, and I congratulate him on the breadth and importance of his work across the years.
I would like to make some remarks about the links between India and the UK, which could be developed around areas of climate change and sustainability, briefly touched upon by the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad.
For a long time the Indian leadership essentially saw climate change and sustainability as “not our problem”. As the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, said, using slightly different statistics, with about 30 per cent of the population living in or close to absolute poverty, development was seen as a priority, and climate change was well down the agenda.
That attitude has now shifted very radically—and quite rightly. I had two conversations with Prime Minister Singh on these issues, separated by about five years, and his attitudes over that time had changed quite substantially. That was not as a result of what I said to him, I am sure—I am not claiming that. In general, India has assumed a leadership position globally on climate change and sustainability issues. It was one of the five nations that forged the Copenhagen accord, and has been very active over the past few years in climate change debates across the world.
It is now recognised by the Indian leadership how dangerous climate change is to India. About 70 per cent of the River Ganges, for example, comes from runoff water from glaciers. Those glaciers have melted dramatically over the past few years, and it is clear that in a country that already has a monsoon season—quite extreme weather—one of the consequences of climate change is much more extreme weather. These things are very dangerous for India, and are now fully acknowledged by the Government.
I therefore see several key areas of potential collaboration which could be of value to both countries, and I will mention three of these. First, the most obvious one, I suppose, is in the area of low carbon and sustainable technologies. India now has substantial investment, particularly in solar technology, but also has quite a large number of wind farms. So far, those two technologies combined make up for less than 1 per cent of the total energy mix in India. In India and the UK, a key issue in both those technologies is to bring down costs so that they are comparable to fossil fuel energy production. An enormous amount of valuable dialogue could be carried on about that. Even though the UK does not have much manufacturing capacity in these areas, it has a lot of technical know-how. Collaboration could be very important to both countries.
The second area is urban design. I think we know that in future we will have to construct our cities differently to follow the demands of sustainability. In an Indian city, for example, where there already is a fair degree of solidarity and connection between people, it does not make sense simply to build supermarkets around the edge of that city, thus creating an evacuated city centre and breaking down the connections which exist. I think that we are all looking for new models of urban development which have sustainable bases to them. Again, we in the UK have a lot of expertise in eco-technology, not just for dwellings but for city design. We have a number of famous architects who have worked extensively in India in some part on these issues. We should try to develop these ties in a much richer way.
Thirdly, we could have intellectual and political collaboration between the two countries. Both countries will need to think of alternative models of development. We know that in the UK growth will be limited over the next few years. That invites us to think what kind of model of growth we should have. India, we hope, will have much higher growth rates but there is no way in which India can recapitulate the western model of development beyond a certain point. It is too destructive, as we have seen in the case of the environmental destruction in Chinese development. India should seek to avoid that.
There could be a lot of collaboration, which is where jobs will be created. Jobs will not be created in just alternative technologies; they will be created through alternative lifestyles. We could have a sort of coffee-shop model of development. Who knew that the British, after years of drinking horrible coffee, really wanted to drink nice coffee and get together in coffee shops? Well, no one very much knew that but this created lots of new jobs. The same thing will be true of the lifestyle changes associated with increasing sustainability.
Lord Liddle
My Lords, the Government have set themselves a bold ambition to put the British relationship with India on a new and stronger footing. The Conservative manifesto at the last election called for a new special relationship. At the Prime Minister’s visit in July 2010 there was launched what was called an enhanced partnership. We are grateful to my noble friend Lord Parekh for enabling us to have this debate, which is an opportunity to assess progress on that bold ambition.
On these Benches, we are strong supporters of what the Government are trying to do. India has made remarkable progress in the past two decades. Its growth is spectacular even though inflation poses a problem to its sustainability. On the official measures, the numbers of people living in extreme poverty have fallen from 26 per cent of the Indian population to 16 per cent, which is a great achievement.
For reasons of sentiment and self-interest, and because people from India and south Asia make a crucial contribution to our society here—while recognising the point emphasised by my noble friend Lord Parekh that India has a different perspective on world events than often we have—we must try to strengthen the relationship. But we must not do that on the basis of false premises.
One false premise was that the previous Labour Government neglected India. One of the things of which I am proudest is that development aid to India under the previous Labour Government was three times the level in the past three years of what it had been in the 1994-97 period; that is, £825 million being spent from 2008-11. I know that there are question marks about whether we should continue to do this but we on these Benches will always remember that there are more poor people in India still than there are in the whole of sub-Saharan Africa.
A second false premise is that a choice is to be made between a bilateral relationship and a multilateral relationship. The truth is that the two have got to go together. The only point on which I would disagree in the excellent speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, is that it is the capacity of the European Union to mobilise hopefully an agreement on a Doha trade round but certainly to agree a bilateral free trade agreement with India. It is that capacity which will lead precisely to the kind of liberalisation in India that he is seeking. But on our own I do not think that we have that ability.
I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, and many other speakers have said; namely, that the economic relationship has tremendous potential. But let us remember that it is starting from a very low base. Of our outward investment in Britain, it is regrettably the case that only 1 per cent of Britain’s foreign direct investment is located in India. More than 50 per cent is in the European Union. On looking at Indian exports, I found an extraordinary fact today: India exports more to the Benelux countries than to the United Kingdom. There has been no dramatic expansion of our trade in recent years. Indeed, I picked up an article that told me that in 2008, Britain was India’s eighth largest trading partner, exporting goods worth about $5 billion. By 2010, that figure had fallen to $4.4 billion. There is an awful lot of work to do to make this economic relationship work.
Our fear on these Benches is that the Government are putting crucial new obstacles in making this relationship a success. Last January, we were all greatly relieved when the right honourable Vince Cable, the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, told us that the visa problems he thought that there would be in the business relationship with India were being solved. Only a month ago, I read in the Times that whereas four years ago it was possible for an Indian business person coming to Britain to get a visa within a few days, it now takes 15 days. People have been saying that it is a lot easier to go to France and other countries in Europe to do business because of these visa rules.
The Government set lots of other objectives for their partnership with India, including higher education, on which noble Lords have spoken. Last week, in the debate on universities, we heard how the number of applications from Asia to Russell group universities is falling fast. How can any nation so comprehensively shoot itself in the foot simply to fulfil a stupid, populist policy that was included in the Government’s manifesto in terms of immigration? I repeat: it is simply shooting our future prospects in the foot for the sake of rank populism.
The same applies to the future leaders’ network that the Government hope to set up. How can we have a network of future leaders if we prevent them from coming to this country? Let us have a constructive approach to this relationship and try to build it, and not put obstacles in its way.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, for initiating this debate. He said, among other things, in his opening remarks that “only when we seek active engagement with India” will we gain the right to criticise Indian policy. This Government is seeking active engagement with India. That is why the Prime Minister and a very large number of Ministers went out to India this time last year, and that is why we have a continuing programme of visits. We hope to have a bilateral summit very shortly, on a date which is yet to be agreed. It is a major and continuing project. So it is not a question of “only when”—we are attempting to do so.
There are some obstacles—perhaps on both sides. We have to engage with the Indians and we must recognise that in pursuing an enhanced partnership we have a great many competitors. Much has been said in intervening speeches about the decline in the number of Indian students coming to the United Kingdom. Indians have been going to the United States. The United States is the most popular foreign country within India and that is part of what we now have to compete with. As the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, and others know, this is in sharp contrast to the flow of Chinese students to Britain, which has continued to rise and is at a far higher level. It will take a good deal of time and effort to catch up to where we would like to be across a very broad number of spectrums. We have to attract the attention of the Indian elite and of the rising young Indian middle classes—the rising young Indian educated generation. We have to have a broad effort at trade and investment on both sides and further develop relations in the fields of climate change, defence and as an aid partnership.
Having such an excellent Indian diaspora here is a tremendous asset. As the flow of investment in both directions shows, this is already helping to develop closer links, in addition to the historical cultural relationship with India. We are all conscious that we have to build on this. The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, castigated the populist policies of the coalition Government on migration. As someone who does his politics in Yorkshire, I am very conscious that it is very often our settled ethnic communities who are themselves strongly supportive of tougher rules on immigration. This is not an easy subject. I often find myself talking to people whose parents or grandparents came from south Asia and who want to know when we are going to stop more people coming in. I have a vivid memory of the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, and myself talking at the Hindu Cultural Centre in Bradford in the last election but one. The second question we had from the floor was: when are we going to stop more of these foreigners coming in? The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, understands that there are many difficulties in making a simple answer to the problems of immigration.
Noble Lords have already remarked that India is by now the third largest foreign investor in the UK. I believe the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, claimed that it is now the second largest. The UK is the fourth largest investor in India. We are attempting to encourage a rising flow in both directions. The enhanced partnership is, I stress, a partnership and it has to be a partnership of equals. We have to get rid of any sense that this is an ex-colonial relationship. As you will all know, the continued existence of the aid relationship with India has become a matter of some controversy in the right-wing press in Britain. It is our intention to move from an aid relationship concentrating on the four poorest states in India where—as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, has remarked—there are still a great many extremely poor people, into a partnership with an Indian government which now has its own steadily increasing aid programme, so that we can share our experience in Africa and elsewhere with the Indians as they come in. That is a pattern which we see ourselves using across the board.
The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, has, to my great pleasure, mentioned that we already have a very useful partnership with Indian scientists and others in climate change and that has been invaluable in getting the global debate on climate change under way—not as the white countries telling others what to do, but as a shared concern about long-term environmental degradation.
The defence partnership is, at the moment, less developed than we would like it to be, although we find ourselves sharing the anti-piracy patrol with Indian ships off Somalia in the Indian Ocean. The Indians are now the largest single contributor to UN peacekeeping forces, so as a country which expects that its forces are most likely to be engaged in helping to reconstruct failed states—post-conflict reconstruction—we will very often find ourselves alongside forces from south Asia. We already have a number of officer exchanges on both sides, and again there are traditions on which to build. I was astonished and delighted to find myself at the National Defence College in Pune, sitting next to an Indian general who told me that his regiment was called Skinner’s Horse. I did not know they still had regiments like that in the Indian Army. We see ourselves moving towards future joint training, and I hope also to greater celebration of the past. That is because our young generation in this country, including the children of Asian immigrants, have forgotten that the largest single Commonwealth contingent in the Second World War came from the Asian sub-continent in the form of the Indian Army.
Many noble Lords have talked about the importance of universities and education. Already much effort is being made. The second tranche of the UK-India Education and Research Initiative is under way. Research Councils UK is working to improve collaboration at the highest levels, and I know that the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, knows what the British Academy is doing in this regard. I regret that student flows are not larger. My former university, the London School of Economics, has developed a number of joint degrees with Chinese universities, but it has been much more difficult to get into partnerships with Indian universities. We need to move further on this. We hope very much that the Indian Government will now complete the passage of the law which would allow foreign universities to set up campuses on the Indian sub-continent. It is a way of trying to increase the two-way flow, and I should mention that the Department for Education and others are hoping to encourage more British students to study at Indian universities. After all, India has some top quality universities. I can speak with some feeling on this since some years ago my son led the British “University Challenge” team that played the winner of the Indian equivalent and was soundly beaten in Delhi.
On visas, I have already mentioned that the situation is extremely complex and we are faced with a British population which has a range of contradictory pressures. However, we are aware of Indian concerns and are doing our best to meet them. On economic relations, many noble Lords have remarked that there is a great deal of good news on the way, but we need the Indians to open their market for services. The United Kingdom is above all a service exporter. Insurance, banking, legal expertise and accountancy are areas where we have the strength to compete much more effectively in the Indian market. We see the EU-India free trade area, which is still under negotiation and we hope will be completed in the next few months, as a major step forward.
I should like to end where I began by saying that the strength of the UK-Indian relationship lies in our historical ties and in the personal ties which the largest diaspora community in this country provides. It is economically successful in this country and the loyal links that people still have with India help to build economic ties in everything from the brewing industry to the pharmaceutical industry. We look to that as one of the many strengths we can pursue further in building a stronger relationship. Again, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, for allowing us to return to this subject, and I hope that we will consider it again soon.
Education Bill
(13 years ago)
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Baroness Walmsley
Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, this amendment seeks to ensure that if a school wishes to keep a child in detention after school, it must ensure that it has successfully contacted the child’s parent or carer. When we discussed this matter in Grand Committee, I asked that the school should get the agreement of the parent. I believed that I was offering a compromise when I moved towards simply asking that the school should inform the parent, but I understand that the Minister does not think so.
Clause 13 has the potential to put a child in danger and I hope that I will be given a strong reassurance by the Minister that this will not be so. While I trust the vast majority of teachers, surely the Minister must accept that it takes a while for a young teacher to develop the sort of good judgment and common sense that we believe would prevent them from putting a child in danger on the way home. That is why we need to make it abundantly clear in guidance that no teacher may detain a child after school without informing the parent if it in any way compromises the safety of the child.
My noble friend the Minister made the point in Grand Committee that schools already have a duty of care to their pupils under other legislation. That may well be so, but noble Lords know the difficulty of cross-referencing other Acts when we are considering a current Bill that makes changes to earlier legislation. That is why I am asking the Minister to ensure that in the guidance that accompanies this new power, the school is made aware, on the same page, that it must not use this power if it in any way puts the child in danger. In order to check on this, the school will have to find out what the child’s transport arrangements are and ensure that either the detention is so short that it avoids the child missing a bus or that other safe travel arrangements have been made. The school may also need to check on whether the child is a carer, where detaining that child after school may cause another vulnerable person in distress. Schools should already know which children are carers, but they need to be sure in this case. I also think the guidance should make it clear that it is good practice to inform the parents anyway by phone. I can envisage the distress of a parent, waiting at home for a child to step off the school bus, only to find that he does not. The parent will worry herself sick; I know I would have done.
I think that this provision is entirely contrary to the respect with which this Government treat parents otherwise. Only this week, we have received a letter about changes to the way complaints about school admissions arrangements are handled, which said:
“We believe that parents should be given the opportunity to be part of the system that holds schools to account, properly supported and championed by the local authority, the Secretary of State and independent adjudicators”.
At the same time, the Government seek to write parents out of their discipline arrangements by letting schools avoid telling them that their child is in detention. As I understand it, this idea has come from one of the head teachers’ unions, but not the other one. I can tell the Minister what parents want: they do not want this. They want to be respected and informed.
Points were strongly made in Committee that rural schools, if they adhere to their safeguarding duty, will not be able to use this sanction at all. Yet I can reassure my noble friend that children in rural schools will not run amok because of it. There are many sanctions already in the armoury to ensure good behaviour and most schools use them effectively. Most have maintained good discipline to date without this power. I question the competence of any school that feels it needs this power to maintain good order and discipline. Yet, in order to give them this power, the Government may risk the safety of children unless the guidance is clear, unequivocal and powerful. We want only one more case like that of poor Milly Dowler and the Government’s good judgment will be called into question, rightly or wrongly.
This is entirely unnecessary if the Government get the guidance right. Will the Minister assure me that our comments about the guidance, and the strength and clarity that it needs, are taken on board by Ministers and officials? Without that assurance, we will remain with the concerns that I have expressed. I beg to move.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, our Amendment 34 is similar to the one so ably outlined by the noble Baroness. It is a requirement that schools should always give reasonable notice to parents or carers of any detentions and that before going ahead with a detention, they have received from the parent or carer confirmation that they are aware of the detention. Rather like the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, has described, we thought that we were eminently conciliatory in our amendment, that it was common sense and would be warmly welcomed by the Minister. Perhaps it still will be.
We return to this issue after a detailed debate in Grand Committee in which we felt there was consensus that this was a common sense position between, on the one hand, an instant response to bad behaviour, while on the other, ensuring that pupil safety is protected. As it stands, the Bill removes a requirement to give 24 hours notice of detention and as a result schools would not be required to give parents or carers any notice at all. We have had a letter from the Minister today setting out new proposals, but those ask teachers only to judge,
“whether it is appropriate to give notice to parents”.
Frankly, we do not think that that is good enough. We recognise that it is usually the case that the nearer the punishment is to the original incident, the more effective it is. However, as a number of noble Lords in Grand Committee recognised, this would potentially create a number of safeguarding issues, which the Minister’s letter attempted to address. It would also potentially damage the relationship between parents and schools and could have a knock-on effect on the success of the school’s broader behavioural policy.
A number of objections remain to no-notice detentions, specifically because of the damage to the school’s relationship with parents. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, has outlined some of those, such as it being impracticable for parents to rearrange children’s transport at short notice when they might have other commitments —other childcare commitments, and so on. There could be unnecessary worry for parents in rural areas especially on dark evenings, when they are anxious about their child’s travel home. There could also be concern if parents think their child is travelling home alone, separately, because they are travelling later, rather than earlier with a group, when they are all leaving school together. There is also the issue that the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, raised about caring responsibilities, of which children might not always have made the school aware. Finally, and perhaps most importantly in this catalogue, there is the basic discourtesy to parents which this Bill would represent and which would do little to help schools forge strong partnerships with parents.
When we discussed this in Committee, the Minister expressed some sympathy with the arguments we had put forward, but went on to argue that head teachers already had to produce behaviour policies which were publicised to parents. She also argued that there were existing legal safeguards that protect children's welfare if they are given detention. However, we do not feel that these points adequately address our concerns and they put the onus on parents to object to the school’s actions after the event through the complaints procedure or through legal action. Surely this is making heavy weather over what should be a common-sense policy. To be frank, we have not yet heard any valid arguments against what we are proposing.
The simplest way through is to support our amendment —or, indeed, the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley—which make it clear that schools can organise no-notice detention provided the parent has confirmed that they aware that it is happening. This will provide adequate safeguards for children and ensure that parents are kept in the loop and treated with respect. I hope noble Lords and the Minister will feel able to support this amendment.
Lord Storey
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, used the right words—“common sense”. I cannot understand this. As a parent and as a teacher, I have no objection to same-day detentions. As has been said, if there is to be a sanction or punishment often it is best that it is done straight away. However, the notion that young people, children and students are kept behind at school without their parents or their carers knowing does not seem right and proper.
If a school organises an after-school activity, whether it be football, netball, swimming or whatever, parents give their permission for their children to take part in those activities, understanding that their children will have to make other arrangements to come home. Why cannot that be done for same-day detentions? All we are suggesting, which is eminently sensible and supported by all the unions bar one—of the unions supporting it, even the National Association of Head Teachers thinks that it is right and proper that parents are notified—is that when a same-day detention is held the parent is contacted, not through a message left on a voicemail, an e-mail or a text but actually contacted. If they cannot be contacted, the same-day detention would have to be held the next day. That is the right and proper common-sense approach.
I have had various e-mails today saying that it would be a breach of the law if the child was not safeguarded and so on, but in all this guidance, about which no doubt we will hear in a moment, I cannot find an understanding that the parent comes first—that the parent matters. I hope that in the guidance it is made absolutely clear how we will protect the well-being and safeguarding of children.
We have spoken about rural areas and the school bus, but in urban areas—in my own city—children often have to travel two miles across the city to go to school. On dark nights they are placed in a very vulnerable situation. If the parents know their child is being kept behind, they can make arrangements.
I hope the Minister will understand the real sense of concern about this issue and give an assurance that the guidelines will clearly spell out what we are asking.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
My Lords, I recognised that there would be a number of reasoned arguments and I stand with my colleagues who made them. I took a rather different way on this. During the summer I consulted a number of friends and my family—it was a random experiment—and it became absolutely clear that they did not believe that I was telling the truth when I said that it was the Government’s plan that when their child was going to be detained they would not be told. They said, “You are making it up”. That was the first response.
The second response from rural parents—I work and have friends in London but I live in a rural area—was, “But there is only one bus. They cannot be detained without notice because if they do not get on the bus they do not get home at all”. We have to remember that not every poor parent in a rural area has a car; they depend on that transport. There are no other bus services or taxis; you catch the school bus or you do not get home. The third response was the sheer indignation that this was “my” child, not owned by anyone else.
The common thread through all that was that the parents were quite keen for the child to be disciplined at school. There was no disagreement that the child should not receive their discipline, that detention might be the right answer, or that the closer it was to the incident the better little Jonny would learn from it. The disagreement was that parents had to know that their child was going to be detained so that they could ensure the protection of their child and were not worried out of their minds. I hope noble Lords will forgive my anecdotal bit of research but it was pretty consistent with the reasoned arguments that we have heard this evening.
Baroness Brinton
My Lords, I also support Amendment 33, which I have added my name to. I will not rehearse the arguments that have been made by noble Lords who have already spoken except to say, as I said in Committee, that these issues about safeguarding are absolutely paramount. There is one area that no one has picked up on but of which I have personal experience. Looked-after children, foster children or children with difficult family arrangements often have complex arrangements at the school gate. For this particular group, it is always vital that the parent with the residency order knows exactly what is happening.
My own experience was at primary school level, where the school was fully on board with all the issues. In a large secondary school with 1,200 pupils, I worry that a teacher or head of department handing out a detention might not be aware of such complex arrangements. For such reasons, which also come back to safeguarding, this is really important. Amendment 33 does not ask for much. The key thing from this Side is for the Minister to please look again at the wording. We want a really clear statement that nothing will be done that will compromise the safety of the child. That is the absolute nub of it. We can all give many more anecdotes but fundamentally, at its root, this is about the safeguarding of children.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, there is clear evidence that good standards of behaviour are vital if children are to receive a high-quality education. We know that a clear and consistently applied behaviour policy, including rewards and sanctions, helps schools to achieve these standards—indeed, noble Lords have acknowledged that in their comments.
There is strong public support for improving the standards of behaviour in schools. A recent survey for the Times Educational Supplement found that 91 per cent of parents and 62 per cent of children favour tougher discipline in secondary schools. The same poll found that 88 per cent of parents and 60 per cent of pupils supported teachers in giving after-school detentions. The head teachers who gave evidence in the other place made clear that detentions are a key part of maintaining good behaviour. As has already been mentioned, Sir Michael Wilshaw went so far as to say that detentions were,
“a crucial plank in our behavioural policy”.
There is a certain level of agreement among us that behaviour patterns and detentions are part of a way in which a school operates effectively.
This clause removes the requirement for schools to provide 24 hours’ written notice of detention outside school hours. In doing this, we seek to enable head teachers and teachers to use detention in the way most suited to the circumstances of their individual schools and in the way that is most appropriate to the pupil or incident with which they are dealing.
Various concerns have been raised today. It might be helpful to noble Lords if I set out what a school has to do, by law, to issue an after-school detention at the moment. First, under Section 89 of the Education and Inspections Act 2006, the head teacher must determine and make generally known in the school and to parents whether the school issues detentions outside school hours.
Secondly, Section 91 of the same Act requires that detentions must be reasonable and constitute a proportionate punishment in all the circumstances. There must also be strong assurances that, when issuing a detention, school staff must have regard to any known special circumstances of the pupil, including the pupil’s age, any special educational needs, disability or religious requirements. That would certainly affect any looked-after children or children with caring responsibilities.
Thirdly, a further safeguard in Section 92(5) of the Act provides that if arrangements have to be made for a pupil to travel home after a detention then, when deciding whether a detention is reasonable, the member of staff must take into account whether suitable travel arrangements can be reasonably made by the pupil’s parents. Many noble Lords have raised concerns about children being unable to get home after detentions in rural areas but we believe this safeguard is designed to address that concern. It is already there, as one of the safeguards that the school must have regard to. A detention that left a child unable to get home in a safe way would not be reasonable in the circumstances and would be in breach of the existing safeguards. I can well understand my noble friend’s point about children with caring responsibilities, and with these other difficulties that we have outlined, but the safeguards above prevent a young carer being given an out-of-hours detention if it is unreasonable, given their individual circumstances.
There is one additional requirement: that parents must be given 24 hours’ written notice of a detention outside school hours. So, in the long list of requirements that schools must follow before issuing an after-school detention we want to remove just one. Why do the Government want to remove the requirement for 24 hours’ written notice? We have had briefing from the Association of School and College Leaders, which made it clear that,
“generally such punishments are most effective if they take place as soon as reasonably practical”.
Indeed, the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones and Lady Howarth, both acknowledged the fact that immediacy of punishment for a crime is a much more effective way of disciplining young people.
The requirement as it stands also places many good schools that issue 15-minute detentions at the end of the school day in breach of the law. These schools do not and would never for a moment consider jeopardising a pupil’s safety or damaging relations with parents. Of course, even with the present requirement for written notice in place there is no guarantee that parents will be aware that a detention is happening. Schools may send the notice home with pupils, who may or may not pass it on to the parent. Equally, an e-mail from the school may not be read that day or parents may not be contactable by telephone. This means there may be cases where parents have not been aware of detentions in advance, but we have absolutely no evidence that this has led to children’s safety being compromised.
My noble friends’ amendment seeks to replace the present requirement, which I think we agree is problematic, with one under which parents must confirm that they are aware of a same-day detention after school, or must receive 24 hours’ notice of it. We well understand their intentions; we would all want parents to play a full part in ensuring high standards of behaviour and to be aware when their child is at school. I fear, however, that the amendments would cause similar problems to the current requirement. Asking that a parent confirms that they are aware of a same-day detention means that a teacher would be prevented from keeping a pupil back, even for 15 minutes at the end of the last lesson of the day, without first making arrangements to contact the parents. Noble Lords can imagine how long that could take and that on many occasions it will be impossible to gain confirmation at short notice that a parent is aware of a detention. I remind noble Lords of all the safeguards which are already in place to make quite sure that transport is there and that the young people do not have caring responsibilities, where after-hours detention would obviously not be appropriate.
There are other cases where an unco-operative parent could, in knowledge of such a requirement, ignore attempts by a school to contact them in order to prevent a same-day detention. They could simply let phone calls go to voicemail or not answer an e-mail, so the whole thing could escalate way beyond the 24 hours —and way past the time when the young person had done the disciplinary matter—and escalate the punishment to a level which was never intended. It is because of these consequences of well intended regulation that we believe it is necessary to remove the requirement and rely on the extensive existing safeguards, which require schools to act reasonably in all the circumstances.
Having said that we are not attracted to regulation we take immensely seriously the concerns raised today and in Grand Committee. We therefore propose that advice to schools on this matter could be strengthened to make sure that schools understand what they should do to act reasonably. An addition to the guidance on behaviour and discipline in schools will say:
“When judging whether a detention outside school hours is reasonable teachers should consider whether it is appropriate to give notice to parents”.
They should obviously make every effort to contact parents, but with all the other safeguards in place, and never in any circumstances take actions that would compromise the safety of the child.
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
I am grateful for the Minister giving way. Will she consider this point? She is stressing that the other requirements, particularly that the school act reasonably, are sufficient safeguards. Would she agree that in removing the requirement to give parents notice she is, in a sense, changing the threshold of what schools could regard as reasonable? Reasonableness is going to mean something else and it could mean—would mean I would argue—that it would be reasonable for the school not to try to inform parents. Therefore, the stress she is putting on the safeguard of reasonableness would actually be completely diminished.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I take the point the noble Baroness makes. However, we have to accept that schools take massive care of the children in their care and do not take these measures lightly. We are talking about short periods of detention after school for pupils who can get home safely; those who do not need to catch the school bus and so on. All those are already enshrined in the care and the regulation. We seek—and we hear the very grave concerns being expressed by noble Lords—to make quite sure the guidance is strengthened to ensure that child safety is never compromised by the school’s actions. We feel that the safeguards already in place strike the right balance between ensuring that children are safe and allowing schools to take proportionate action—to use their discretion and professional judgment—to establish the arrangements that work best for them.
We hope that my noble friends and the noble Baronesses will agree to work with us to see how we can strengthen the guidance that goes with these measures and meanwhile will feel able to withdraw their amendments.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
Before the noble Baroness sits down, I want to clarify when she is proposing now. We were sent a copy of a draft document on detention, which says:
“When judging whether a detention outside school hours is reasonable teachers should consider whether it is appropriate to give notice to parents”.
Is the noble Baroness now saying that is going to be strengthened or is that the wording that is on offer? I want to clarify that point.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
These are draft guidance documents at the moment. We hear the strength of feeling that has been expressed around the House and would certainly welcome consultation to see if we can find a form of words that reassures noble Lords. We feel that all the measures are in place, but obviously some noble Lords feel that they are not strong enough, so we will be looking at the draft guidance to make quite sure the wording is appropriate.
Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for her reply. We would all agree with some of her opening remarks that there is strong public support for good behaviour in schools. We all know that that helps children to learn. However, I do not accept there is strong public support for this particular measure and like the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, I, too, did some research over the summer with some ordinary parents and I had exactly the same responses as the noble Baroness.
The Minister said that schools must do this in a way which is most appropriate for the pupils with whom they are dealing. Where does it say that? It certainly does not say it in the legislation. It must say it, or something like it, in the guidance. My noble friend carefully went through the other duties that schools have to safeguard children, which have been laid into other statutes. I accept all that. Punishments have to be proportionate and reasonable and travel arrangements have to be considered. They are already there, but the question for a teacher looking at the guidance is: where are they? The guidance needs to have these duties clearly spelt out on the same page where a teacher is being told what they can do under this new law. It needs to be very clear.
I often wonder where this idea came from. My noble friend the Minister has told us that it came from the ASCL. Why does the ASCL have such influence over this Government? The other head teachers’ union does not have the same influence and other ordinary teachers’ unions do not. I am afraid I have a nasty suspicion that this bit of the Bill seeks to enable legislation to catch up with practice, and that some schools are following this practice without giving 24 hours’ notice. I accept that notes in satchels do not always get to parents and that the current requirement for 24 hours’ written notice often does not reach the parent and the parent is not notified. We are asking for something better than that. We are suggesting a way of ensuring that the parent is informed to enable them to make other arrangements for the child to get home safely, if possible. If they are not able to do so, as the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, said, because they do not have a car and an alternative bus is not available, they can make the school aware that there could be a safeguarding problem if the child is kept in. It is then up to the school under the other duties that my noble friend has outlined to punish the child at a different time.
My noble friend suggested that some unco-operative parents may fail to answer the phone and let the message be recorded on the answerphone. I do not think that these parents have a crystal ball. When the phone rings, they cannot possibly know that it is the school ringing up to say that little Johnny will be kept in after school that day. That is stretching things beyond reality.
I am delighted that my noble friend has accepted that there is scope for strengthening the guidance. I was very pleased to hear that. She made it very clear on the record from the Dispatch Box that teachers should not do anything that compromises the safeguarding of the child. That gives me comfort. If we can work together to ensure that that is made crystal clear in the guidance, I will not feel that I need to return to this at a later stage. Can my noble friend nod and affirm that we can do that work and get the guidance to say something of that nature? It is vital that we help teachers to make good decisions about when to use this weapon in their armoury.
Baroness Morris of Yardley
Before the noble Baroness concludes, will she also reflect that essentially what we are setting in place is a two-tier style of punishment? If you think of it from the teacher’s point of view, what is underpinning this is that a detention on the same day as the crime that has been committed is more effective because it is closer in time to that crime. We will now have schools with two groups of pupils—those pupils who are eligible to receive that punishment and those who are not.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I apologise to the noble Baroness but I am double tasking as a government spokesman and a Whip today. The rules at Report state that a noble Lord may not come back after the Minister has spoken.
Baroness Walmsley
Perhaps I may complete my remarks. I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Yardley. As I have said, rural schools will not be able to use this measure but some urban schools will. However, as my noble friend Lord Storey said, not all urban schools will be able to use it because there may well be safeguarding issues in urban schools as well. However, as I said, I am comforted by what my noble friend the Minister has said. I look forward to further discussions with officials on how we can produce guidance that really helps teachers to do what they need to do but at the same time not compromise the safeguarding of children. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Locally based cooperation and collaboration
The Government must issue guidance to encourage locally based cooperation and collaboration between schools in areas including—(a) behaviour,(b) attendance and registration,(c) peer improvement,(d) raising standards.”
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
My Lords, this amendment relates to Clause 6 which repeals the duty on secondary schools to co-operate with other schools to promote good behaviour, discipline and attendance and to make an annual report to the children’s trust board on how they have done so. Through behaviour and attendance partnerships, schools have worked together; for example, to help children at risk of exclusion, or to place in another mainstream school, through managed moves. Partnerships enable groups of schools to collectively fund specialist support for children with behavioural problems; for example, to employ a parent support worker, or whatever, and to provide the resources that individual schools, especially small schools, may not be able to afford on their own. That means that parents’ ability to access specialist support for a child with, for example, behavioural problems could be reduced.
This amendment takes at face value the Government’s commitment, stated at Grand Committee, that although they want to repeal the requirement on schools to engage in behaviour and attendance partnerships, they support the principle that schools should co-operate and work together to resolve a range of issues, rather than work alone. The original behaviour and attendance partnerships came into being following Sir Alan Steer’s Behaviour Review: an Initial Response, which said:
“It remains my firm view that all secondary schools—including new and existing Academies, Foundation schools and Pupil Referral Units—should participate in behaviour partnerships”.
I recognise—we discussed this in Committee—that partnerships work best when all the partners are committed to working together and are not simply ticking boxes to meet requirements. However, as I mentioned in Grand Committee, Sir Alan Steer also said:
“Good collaboration between schools is often prevented by what are perceived as unfair practices operated by a minority of schools in admissions and exclusions”.
So without partnership working being required and in addition to the broader fragmentation of the education system that this Government risk bringing in, there is a real risk that schools will stop collaborating in this important area. There is also a real danger that this may signal to schools that the general collaboration and co-operation that the Government say they want to foster is not something that schools are required to do or that the Government are particularly concerned about. That could have a negative impact on partnerships that exist, albeit voluntarily, at the moment. So while our amendment would not maintain behaviour and attendance partnerships in statute, it would require the Government to issue a clear statement of their view that partnership working is beneficial and is to be expected from schools. It would require the Government to issue guidance to encourage local co-operation and collaboration between schools in areas including behaviour, attendance and registration, peer improvement—schools working together—and raising standards. It could address other issues as well: for instance, schools co-operating on what happens to excluded pupils; identifying children missing from any school in a locality; and so on.
If we are all agreed—and I think we are—that schools working together will achieve the best outcomes for children generally, and particularly those with behavioural difficulties or at risk of exclusion, then it makes sense for the Government to signal their clear expectation by providing guidance to schools to help them work together and to set out what they would like schools to do. I hope, given the comments in Grand Committee and the Government’s commitment to school collaboration and working together, that the Minister will accept the amendment and I look forward very much to his response. I beg to move.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, I understand the intention of the amendment, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, which is to promote co-operation and collaboration between schools to improve behaviour, attendance and standards. I agree with her about the importance of this. It goes with the grain of the existing culture in schools, which by its nature tends to be collegiate. I also agreed with her when she said that these kinds of partnerships work better when they are formed voluntarily, when they bubble up and take the shape that individual schools want them to take. I hope that I am as keen as her to encourage co-operation and schools learning from each other.
Where we differ—perhaps the only point in this amendment—is that I am not convinced that government guidance on these issues will deliver change locally. We think that it is best led by professionals on the ground. I accept that in some cases, legislation can help, such as for example, the duty on all state-funded schools to participate in a fair access protocol, which will remain. That is a good example of a solution to a specific problem. But we know that the previous set of guidance on behaviour and bullying from the department ran to some 600 pages, which is difficult for schools to take on board. The direction that we seek is to help schools to learn from each other. I just want to mention a few of those today. One would be our proposals for teaching schools. We are hoping to set up a network of teaching schools around the country and have announced the first 100. Those schools have a track record of working with others to raise standards for children and young people beyond their own school.
Under that model, groups of schools will work together within a teaching school alliance supported by the leadership of a teaching school. These alliances can work across local authorities and involve many different types of organisations. This first wave of teaching schools will be given the opportunity to take the lead in a variety of specialist areas including improving pupil performance and behaviour in schools. We have also asked the national college to build on the work started under the previous Government, designating excellent head teachers to be local and national leaders of education who will work to support underperforming schools. The college is now creating a new group of specialist leaders in education. They will be outstanding leaders in their particular field of expertise, which could include pupil achievement, quality of teaching or behaviour management. Teaching schools will designate specialist leaders and deploy them into schools that need support, thus ensuring a school-driven approach to improvement.
The noble Baroness talked about academies briefly. I know that she has some concerns but one of the features has been partnerships that have been formed to support school improvement in the widest sense. Before entering into a funding agreement with an academy, we ask them to identify a school or group of schools that they will work with to improve their performance. That collaboration is a vital part of our overall strategy to tackle long-term problems and inequalities that sadly exist in parts of our education system. The practical benefits of this collaboration are obvious. Young people can enjoy a wider range of facilities and try out new subjects; underused resources will be employed better; teachers will have more opportunities themselves for learning and professional development.
These partnerships with academies are a natural progression from those informal, local partnerships between schools that have been developing for a number of years and which I know the previous Government were keen to encourage. The fact that these ideas are emerging from within the system rather than being imposed by central or local government to my mind makes the effect all the more significant and the benefits likely to be greater. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, will agree that these systems for peer-to-peer and school-to-school support will make a contribution to improving standards of attainment, behaviour and attendance. I recognise that the proof of the pudding will be in the eating but I believe that they build on the ideas behind some of the previous Government’s successful initiatives, and we think that that is a better way forward than issuing more guidance. We are committed to ensuring that all schools will have access to the expertise that they may need to address these issues. With that, I hope that the noble Baroness may feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response. I welcome the information he has given us about teaching schools. I support that initiative. In a sense, the whole idea of teaching schools substantiates the points I was making in support of guidance: those schools that are designated as teaching schools will be under no illusion that in order to be so designated they will have to accept the expectation that they will collaborate and disseminate good practice with other schools—it will part of the deal for being a teaching school.
I had hoped that the Minister would see the distinction in this amendment. It is not placing a duty on schools at all, but rather placing a duty on the Secretary of State to signal the clear expectation of the Government that schools, in taking public money and being responsible for the education of our children, will understand that there is an expectation that they work together and collaborate. I think most schools are willing to do that, but, as Sir Alan Steer said, not all schools are. That is why we thought that this would be an appropriate signal for the Government to send. I can see that the Minister is not minded to accept the amendment. While I am disappointed in that, I accept that that is the Government’s position, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Register of teachers
The Secretary of State shall have a duty to maintain a register of qualified teachers.”
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, the Bill abolishes the General Teaching Council for England. However, in abolishing it, there is a fear that the Government are getting rid of some of the crucial features and functions that it has previously carried out. One of those crucial functions is to maintain a register of teachers.
The register and the requirement to be qualified, to which we will come later, are important for maintaining the professional status of teachers. The register of those qualified and entitled to teach in our schools has been successful in enabling employers to make recruitment checks and is valued by employers and teachers alike. Under the Government’s proposals, all that will be held is a database of those prohibited from teaching, which is a very different thing.
The Bill sets out that certain GTCE functions will transfer to the Secretary of State and others will stop completely. In his letter to us of 13 June, the noble Lord, Lord Hill, confirmed the Government’s intention that they will not continue to maintain a register of teachers. I acknowledge that he has subsequently written setting out how the Government believe that the database of teachers prohibited from teaching will be established. To be frank, we do not accept that that meets our concerns.
There does not appear to be any pressure from educationists for the register to be discontinued. Indeed, as I reported in Grand Committee, the ASCL told us that,
“abolition of the GTCE and discontinuation of the registers removes the public’s guarantee that all registered teachers are, ‘eligible, suitable, properly qualified and of good standing’”.
In Grand Committee we were also told that independent schools value the existence of the register. Parents and pupils want high quality, qualified teachers. They want an assurance that the profession is regulated. As I mentioned in Grand Committee, a survey showed that,
“93 per cent of parents want teachers to be regulated, to have an agreed level of training and to be registered with a regulatory body before taking up a teaching post”.—[Official Report, 4/7/11; col. GC 55.]
The GTCE has told us that it carries out something in the region of 676,000 checks on teachers’ registration each year, saving employers significant time and money. At the Committee stage in the Commons, the Minister acknowledged the benefit of a register of people with qualified teacher status and said:
“We recognise the central benefits of providing head teachers and employers with access to a central record of who holds qualified teacher status. We will explore whether and how to provide that in future”.—[Official Report, Commons, Education Bill Committee, 17/3/11; col. 498.]
Our amendment would go further than that and make the Secretary of State accountable for an up-to-date register.
If the register of teachers in England is abolished, we will be left with a farcical situation where up-to-date registers are maintained in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland but not in England. Those three nations have seen the sense in keeping the register. What are the implications of England not keeping the information? Will rogue teachers slip through the net? Will the lack of an English register undermine those being kept by other countries, as teachers move between the four nations? What does that say about how England perceives the professionalism of teachers, compared to the other nations?
The abolition of the English register is unnecessary and provocative. All other professional sectors in this country keep a register of those entitled to practise. Some—for example, the General Medical Council—share the information publicly on a website, along with details of any disciplinary action that has been taken against a doctor. Is this not the way that we should be moving if we believe in empowering parents?
The abolition of the register is a retrograde step that the Secretary of State will grow to regret. In the past, the GTC has administered the register, but it does not have to be this body in future. The Secretary of State is equally able to carry out this function. Given that he has been so keen to take on so many additional powers himself, we hope that he will see the sense in also taking on this responsibility. We trust that noble Lords will see the sense of these amendments and hope that the Minister will feel able to support them.
Lord Puttnam
My Lords, I rise to support both amendments in this group. I will not go into detail because they have been beautifully set out by my noble friend Lady Jones. I must point out that in passing these clauses we will effectively be officiating at the funeral of the General Teaching Council. It would be quite wrong of me, as a former chairman, to allow that to happen without saying a few words about why it is a catastrophic mistake.
It is not just a catastrophic mistake. I have absolutely no doubt that within 10, 15 or 20 years, this or another Government will come to the Dispatch Box and announce the creation of something remarkably similar to the General Teaching Council. The reason goes to the heart of the paradox that the Government have embraced in their approach to the teaching profession. Unless I misheard the Minister, he referred just now to the emergence of an outstanding generation of leaders, particularly in the teaching schools. I celebrate and support that. However, these are leaders of a very peculiar type: they somehow fall short of being allowed professional status. I am not sure that there is any other area of British public life where that is true: where we seek and promote outstanding leadership but refuse to acknowledge the professional status that ought to go with it.
I do not for one moment defend the clumsy and frankly inadequate legislation that led to the creation of the General Teaching Council. It was not good enough and I and many others suffered from trying to make it work. However, it was a dream and an ambition that was worth while. In rejecting and scrapping it, the Government must acknowledge that they are flying in the face of the ambitions for the profession of every leading educationalist of the 20th century, from Sir Alec Clegg onwards. Every single educationalist sought, promoted and fought for professional recognition for teachers.
There is a very simple line to draw. Skilled, professional teachers lead to well educated children, who in turn give us some hope of a successful society. The key is the skill of the professional teacher. The notion that you can have a successful education system without the wholehearted buy-in and support of the entire profession is a fantasy that all noble Lords in this Chamber would agree is unsustainable. We will not get the profession buying into educational reform and improvement until it comes to understand that it is just that: a profession.
The disastrous mistake that my Government made was in ever contemplating the notion that we could have a professional body that was not paid for by the profession. I am afraid that what is happening here—it is a tough thing to say—is the infantilisation of the profession. We are scrapping its professional status because no one has the courage to say to the profession: “Grow up, understand the responsibilities you have, understand that there is no possible success for this country unless a generation of brilliant teachers emerges, and understand that along with that responsibility comes the need to be professionals—and professionals pay for their professional status”. We will have something like the General Teaching Council. I hope it will be in my lifetime, but it may be after it. Today, I want to register the fact that this is a sad day for the profession, a sad day for the Government and a sad day for the future of education because, as I say, we will have to return to it. When we do so, I hope we will return to it in a more constructive spirit than the manner in which we are scrapping it.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam. I find it very difficult to support this part of the Bill at all because for many years we have struggled to establish a proper professional organisation for teachers. I find it quite extraordinary that we are now destroying it. It gives teachers a sense of profession and of belonging to that profession. It is quite out of kilter with what is happening in the further education profession where those who get QTLS are being required to register with the IFL. I cannot support the Government on this issue.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, as always, I listened to the arguments made by the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, with a great deal of care. I thought that with his customary honesty he made the point clearly about some of the shortcomings of the GTC which are linked directly to the decision that the Government took to bring about its abolition. The point he raised powerfully about the disinclination of the profession to pay for its membership and the fact that it is largely taxpayer-funded is important and one on which we should all reflect. I would not disagree with a word that he or my noble friend Lady Sharp said about professionalism and the need to have a profession and raising the status, esteem and standing of teachers as professionals.
Earlier today, we spoke about the importance of trust. Before I talk about the specific amendments, where we disagree on the fundamental principle is on whether the GTC as constituted is an embodiment of professional status. We contend that it is not, although I agree with the noble Lord that it is perfectly possible, indeed likely, that in future years something will well up that captures and speaks for the professionalism that he advocates and that I know he feels strongly about, but it probably will not be the GTCE.
When we discussed this in Committee, I set out some of the things that the Government are trying to do to raise the status of the profession and the quality of entrants to it and to help existing teachers to develop and improve. As we discussed on the last group, one of the overall themes that we are trying to develop is to give teachers and head teachers greater responsibility for improving teacher quality. I think that is a very good symbol of greater professionalism. I am as keen as other noble Lords to support schools and head teachers to recruit high-quality teachers and to ensure that they are able to access the information that they need to do so. At present, the GTC has a register that contains detailed information from every teacher and employer in the country. This ranges from personal data and qualifications through to information on the types of posts held in previous employments. Schools and teachers are required to update this information at least three times a year. I am told that that costs around £500,000 a year, and that is before one counts the cost of the time spent on it in schools. I do not believe that maintaining that amount of information at a national level is desirable or necessary.
However, we have been persuaded by concerns raised in this House and elsewhere that there is a genuine need for the Government to help schools to know who has qualified teacher status and who has passed induction. The profession proposed an alternative to the GTCE register that I think achieves this objective, and the two leading head teacher unions wrote to the Secretary of State to express their strong belief in the need for an online database of all qualified teachers that is accessible by schools to replace the GTCE register.
We talked about this in Grand Committee but I can confirm that, having considered this, the Secretary of State has agreed that the teaching agency will establish and maintain a database that will record which teachers have attained qualified teacher status and which have passed their statutory induction period. That database will be available online to all employers from April 2012 and will be in addition to the prohibited list database, which will also be available to employers online. Together, the QTS database and the prohibited list will give employers an important resource in assessing qualifications as well as establishing who should not be employed as a teacher.
Baroness Walmsley
Perhaps I may ask my noble friend a question. Will these two databases be linked? I can imagine a head taking on a teacher might look at the original database to see if that person has been qualified and done the induction but they will not necessarily look at the other database to see if that person has been struck off since. Will there be a suggestion for somebody using the first database that they really ought to check the prohibited one as well?
Lord Hill of Oareford
That sounds a very sensible suggestion. I will need to check where we have got to on developing the two databases but that sounds eminently sensible because clearly one would want to make sure that there was read-across.
I hope in light of the reassurance about providing the information, which I accept there has been widespread agreement that we need, including from the party opposite, and about maintaining such a register, that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, may feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, I listened to my noble friend Lord Puttnam with a great deal of sadness as he described the demise of the GTC and what it had originally intended to represent, which was a strong professional standard for the teaching profession and something that they could all aspire to. It is a very sad day that we are here reflecting on its demise. The Minister said very warmly to my noble friend Lord Puttnam that he would not disagree with a word that he had said about teachers’ professionalism, and he went on to say that he hoped that something would “well up” to replace it. That is not much of a response to the profession. In the intervening period, while we are waiting for this welling up, the teaching profession will have been sent a signal that the Government really do not think that it is terribly important and it has got to bide its time before anything appears from the ether to be a standard for it again as a professional body. I echo the comments that have been made about the messages that this sends to the profession.
My noble friend Lord Puttnam went on to say that we would end up recreating the GTC and I think that is really where we are ending up. As we have heard, we have got one list, or maybe two. Somebody is going to have to administer those lists. At a very basic level, if they are not a register then they are moving towards becoming a register, and I acknowledge that the Minister has made some gestures towards what we were arguing. The question that has been raised about whether they will speak to each other is very valid.
I also think that there is a difference between a database of those who are qualified to teach and a register of those who are currently teaching. A register of those who are qualified to teach would very quickly get out of date. It would become a moribund list of people who have potentially not taught for 20 years or more, whereas the idea of a register is as a current, lively thing that enables access to people’s current status. It seems that we have got two poor substitutes for what was a perfectly reasonable arrangement in the first place. More work needs to be done on this.
As for this applying only to England and what happens to the other three nations. I am not sure that I heard the Minister address that issue. Three registers are going to exist in the other three UK nations, and England will be the only one which does not have one. We have made heavy weather of this. It would have been a lot easier if we had just kept the register as well, and be done with it.
I am absolutely sure that the thinking behind this is that the GTCE, for whatever reason, was not in favour with the current Government, and this is why we have ended up where we are. A lot more work needs to be done on this, but I take on board the Minister’s intention to come back and clarify some of these issues. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) Where subsection (1) applies, the employer must provide information about the teacher to the Secretary of State.”
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, as the Bill stands, where a teacher may have been dismissed due to serious misconduct or dismissed due to serious misconduct had they not already resigned, the employer,
“must consider whether it would be appropriate to provide prescribed information about the teacher to the Secretary of State”.
The same holds for teachers employed through an agency.
Also, as the Bill stands, the Secretary of State,
“must keep a list containing”—
the names which we have just been discussing, of those—
“to whom a prohibition order has effect”.
But as we have heard, under the Bill there is no requirement for the Secretary of State to maintain a register of qualified teachers. Again, this is an issue which we have just been rehearsing, and on which we require further clarification.
The original requirements that this clause now removes were put in place to ensure that any future potential employers were aware of previous dismissals for serious misconduct. It protected employers from a safeguarding and quality perspective and it protected the pupils in these schools. We believe that these protections are still essential. Our amendments would make it compulsory and not discretionary for employers to inform the Secretary of State about cases where an employed teacher or an agency teacher has been dismissed due to serious misconduct.
If the Bill went through unamended, there would no doubt be a variation in treatment from employer to employer, and the picture held by the Secretary of State on the database that we have been talking about would be incomplete. It would mean that checks by potential employers would not be complete, and the risk of employers unknowingly hiring teachers previously guilty of serious misconduct would rise. This would reduce confidence in the whole referral system. And more importantly, it could put pupils at risk.
In Grand Committee, the Minister argued that the proposals made no change to the duty on all schools to refer any cases of serious misconduct relating to children to the Independent Safeguarding Authority. But this does not appear to provide the safeguards that are necessary. For example, what about other cases of misconduct, for example financial misconduct? And what does the ISA do with the information that would stop the teacher being hired by an unwitting employer in the future?
The proposals are a recipe for confusion, with employers not being clear where to send information on misconduct, and a danger that several agencies will end up holding partial records. Surely the safest way out of this is to require all information to be held in one place—in this case, as we propose, to be held by the Secretary of State.
I know it has been argued that the current system does not work well in that different employers are providing different levels of information to the GTCE. But surely the solution to this is to provide a clear national obligation on employers to inform the centre not to give them even more discretion and therefore make an even more patchy picture of what is happening out in the schools.
This issue is too important to brush aside. It is not about the bureaucratic flow of information; it is about pupil safety and the guarantees that parents rightly expect as regards proper checks being carried out on teachers before they are employed. That can work only if the Secretary of State provides clear leadership to schools and ensures that his department receives a consistent and comprehensive picture of the misconduct issues taking place in them. I therefore hope that noble Lords will support our amendment.
Lord Storey
My Lords, this matter is very important and I very much look forward to what the Minister has to say on this. We are rightly concerned about safeguarding. All staff in schools rightly have CRB checks and the CRB register is regularly maintained. It is equally important that when a member of staff commits an act of gross misconduct which goes to the disciplinary processes and is dismissed, we have a mechanism whereby that teacher cannot move to another authority, job or school. As we have heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, we would put at risk the whole basis of the safeguarding of schools. In the Minister’s reply, I hope that he will give us comfort in that we can be assured that this situation cannot arise.
Let us take an example. A teacher comes into school under the influence of drugs or alcohol. He or she is sent home and the matter is investigated. Gross misconduct is alleged and the matter goes to a disciplinary hearing of governors. The governors decide to uphold the gross misconduct allegation, after which the teacher appeals. The appeal panel of governors upholds the action and the teacher is removed from his or her job. In that situation, we would want to be assured that that information is retained so that the member of staff cannot move to another authority or school. This is hugely important for the safeguarding and well-being of our children, as well as being important to the parents.
Lord Knight of Weymouth
My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Jones on this issue. In respect of the non-safeguarding issues—the noble Lord, Lord Storey, has just talked about the safeguarding ones—my noble friend mentioned financial irregularity and misconduct. I know that the Minister is likely to repeat the defence that schools have to inform the Independent Safeguarding Authority, which to some extent deals with the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Storey. But it does not deal with the other issues.
I know that it is a great frustration to governors and head teachers when they find that they have employed someone who clearly is not up to the job and who had not been in their previous job, but the new school did not know about it. In terms of the professionalism of the workforce and teachers, it is very important that we respect that when things go wrong as well as when they go right and ensure that the facility is there to ensure that schools notify a central body. The Secretary of State would seem to be a sensible outcome, which is surprising given that much of my nervousness about this Bill is giving ever more powers to the Secretary of State, but on this occasion it is warranted. I would be interested in the Minister’s response if he happened to have in his back pocket any information around the numbers of teachers who are dismissed on grounds of gross misconduct that are not related to safeguarding. That would give us a better understanding of the exposure around this issue than if he relies just on the Independent Safeguarding Authority.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I do not think I have that in my back pocket, but I will rootle in my clothing after this and see what information I can find. If there is relevant information which would shed some light on this I will, of course, send it to the noble Lord and circulate it more widely.
I will briefly set out the Government’s overall proposals on teacher regulation to try to put them in context. The GTCE currently deals with referrals for both incompetence and misconduct. I start with that because it touches in some way on the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Knight. There is pretty clear evidence that the approach taken by the GTCE on incompetence has not been working and this is one of the things that drove us to try a new approach. In 10 years, the GTCE barred only 17 teachers for incompetence, and research has shown that employers are often reluctant to make referrals relating to competence to a national regulator. As we have discussed, they have previously only had a nuclear option and this has discouraged heads from making referrals, on the understandable basis that someone who might not be guilty of serious misconduct, but might need to move on and try teaching in a different school, finds himself grinding through the GTCE process. We are therefore seeking to separate issues of competence from issues of misconduct.
So far as dealing with incompetence is concerned, we want to put that into the hands of head teachers. To help them carry out this responsibility, we are also currently consulting on some streamlined arrangements for performance management and capability procedures. So far as misconduct is concerned, we certainly think there is a role for a national regulator, but we also want to try to give head teachers an appropriate level of responsibility, with only serious misconduct cases that may warrant the ultimate sanction—a bar from the teaching profession—being dealt with by the national regulator.
On the issue of safeguarding raised by my noble friend Lord Storey, the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Knight, is partly a response to that. Our proposals will not alter the current arrangements in relation to child protection. The legal duty on employers to refer any issues that relate to safeguarding to the Independent Safeguarding Authority will remain. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, asked what happens when the Independent Safeguarding Authority is informed. If a person is barred by the ISA, a flag would appear on their CRB check and a head teacher carrying out a check would then know.
The present regulatory regime requires head teachers to refer all teachers who are sacked as a result of misconduct to the national regulator. The regulator then investigates those cases and imposes one of a range of sanctions depending on the severity of the misconduct. Our basic position is that we do not think that a national regulator should need to administer intermediate sanctions such as restrictions on the use of the internet on school computers. The purpose of the national regulator should be to investigate the most serious cases in order to decide whether a teacher should ever be allowed to teach again. Under the current system, only 10 per cent of referrals have resulted in prohibition orders. In other words, a lot of the GTCE’s time—and a significant amount of money—has been spent investigating cases of a lower order of significance. Similarly, the current system requires head teachers to go through the process of referring a teacher, even if they believe that there are no grounds for barring them from the profession. This is inefficient and risks placing a perverse incentive on head teachers not to confront issues of conduct, because they think it is inappropriate and unnecessary to refer the case to the national regulator.
The amendments effectively seek to reverse the changes we are proposing to make to the role of the national regulator in relation to misconduct. The reason that I am resisting them is because experience of the current system has shown that requiring employers to refer all cases has had two undesirable consequences. First, as I have said, it means that the regulatory system has spent too much of its time focusing on cases that are not sufficiently serious to warrant the teacher being barred, and secondly, that heads have avoided sacking teachers for misconduct because they know it does not warrant an investigation by the regulator and they would not want them ending up on that path.
There is a point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, about inconsistency, which I accept. I agree that arrangements for teacher regulation should seek to achieve consistency, but I do not believe that the current duty which she prefers is delivering that. Research published in 2008 found that between 2001 and 2008, nearly one-third of all local authorities had never made a referral for misconduct. Even when we take into account the different numbers of teachers employed in different local authority areas, the variation of referrals among local authorities indicates significant inconsistency in the current system. To reduce that, and to support head teachers in exercising their discretion, we are developing prohibition advice which sets out the kinds of misconduct that should lead to a teacher being barred from the profession. I circulated a draft on 12 October. We are currently carrying out a consultation on the guidance, which we intend to publish following Royal Assent. I would be happy to receive comments on that consultation from noble Lords to see whether they think it will help us to deliver greater consistency.
We are taking those steps and I hope, by explaining the rationale behind wanting to move to a more differentiated system, that even if the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, does not accept my reasoning she will withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Storey, made a powerful case on the issue of consistency, and I think that it is the key word in this. We are grappling towards a system that is best going to deliver that consistency. The Minister said that it did not work in the past and that incomplete records were provided by different authorities. My answer to that is that what he is proposing now will make it even more inconsistent and patchy. The draft regulations he has recently sent out show that it will very much be discretionary rather than compulsory for employers as to whether they feed information into the centre. The onus of the wording is that employers “may” decide whether they wish to inform the Secretary of State, members of the public “may” be able to refer cases to the Secretary of State, and the police and the Independent Safeguarding Authority “may” also refer cases to the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State will have a very patchy and inconsistent picture, and I do not know that that helps anybody. What we really want is a resource that future employers can access and in which they will have some faith.
I understand the steps the Minister is taking, but we need to revisit the draft regulations. We need to make a much better attempt at trying to find a consistent and useful resource for future employers. I do not think that this is it, but there is room for further dialogue. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Hill of Oareford
Lord Hill of Oareford
I should like to speak briefly to this and the other government amendments which make up the majority of this group. A number of these amendments were prompted by the debate about Clause 13 that we had in Grand Committee. My noble friend Lord Phillips and a number of other Peers were concerned that the way the clause was drafted might lead a judge to place undue weight on the welfare of the teacher involved when considering applications to lift reporting restrictions. It was not our intention to skew the judge’s consideration to the disadvantage of the pupil, or pupils, who had made the allegation.
Amendment 44 therefore makes it clear that courts must have regard both to the welfare of the teacher and to the alleged victim of the offence when deciding whether to lift reporting restrictions. My noble friend was also concerned that the clause could lead to one-sided reporting of an allegation. It provided that the written consent of the individual about whom allegations had been made should be a defence to a charge of breaching the restrictions. However, that could lead to a situation where a teacher defended himself publicly against an allegation while those making the allegation were unable to respond.
We thought that my noble friend Lord Phillips was right to say that when a teacher is responsible for a publication identifying him or her as the subject of an allegation, then restrictions should lift and other parties should then be able to publish their side of the story. Amendment 49 and the consequential Amendments 53 and 54 make this change. The remaining amendments are technical improvements to the drafting of parts of Clause 13 following discussions between officials at the Department for Education and officials at the Lord Chief Justice’s office. They do not represent a change to the policy intention behind the clause.
Amendment 42 clarifies that tentative allegations that a teacher may be guilty of an offence should be treated in the same way as firmer allegations that they are guilty. Amendment 43 and consequential Amendments 45, 46 and 50 clarify that applications for reporting restrictions to lift should be made to the magistrates’ court, with appeals going to the Crown Court. Amendment 50 and the paving Amendment 47 help the clause more accurately to reflect our original policy intention that reporting restrictions should lift automatically when a teacher is charged. I beg to move.
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
My Lords, I do not want to oppose any of the amendments that the Minister has tabled but I want to sound a cautionary note and put it on the record following our extensive discussion of the principles underlining the Government’s proposals in Clause 13. We had an extensive debate in Grand Committee and part of it was around the question that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, put acutely: whether the Government had made the case that teachers are in a unique position in relation to allegations of abuse, such that the restriction on reporting was justified. He said that,
“if Clause 13 goes through unamended, it will repose in the teaching profession a privilege unique in English law”.—[Official Report, 6/7/11; col. GC 158.]
I want to preface my remarks with great concern for any person in any profession against whom allegations of child abuse are made and are not true. I completely understand the concerns about blighting a career and suspending a person in an anxious time while investigations take place. I have a son who is a teacher at a primary school and many sisters and some brothers-in-law who are teachers, so I am appraised of and concerned about that side of the argument. I also understand why the teaching unions make it. However, I am also concerned about safeguarding children and that is the difficult territory that we are in here.
The Government offered, in response to our debate in Grand Committee, to do some research to see what the figures were. That research has now been published and was referred to in the press at the weekend. When noble Lords look at the figures, they will see that of the cases examined—more than 12,000 where allegations were referred to local authority designated officers—under a quarter were in relation to teachers. If you add in the smaller, but none the less substantial, numbers of non-teaching school support staff, it is still well under a half of all the allegations. It is more telling that for teachers—this was the headline in the press—nearly half of the allegations, which came to 2,800 cases, were classified as unsubstantiated.
This does not mean that there was no truth in the allegation but that the threshold of evidence for prosecution could not be reached. This is difficult territory because most of those allegations will depend only on the word of the pupil against that of the teacher. There will not be witnesses present in most of those allegations. “Unsubstantiated” means that there was insufficient evidence to proceed; it is not a judgment about whether the allegations were true. Even more telling than that is that only 2 per cent of the allegations against teachers and FE lecturers were classified as malicious. The guidance issued by the Government in August makes great play of, and refers extensively to, malicious allegations, and yet we now have from the research a finding that only 2 per cent of allegations were malicious.
I am not going to oppose the amendments. I understand why the Government have acceded to the pressure from the unions, although we decided at the time, because of the problems that arise and the concerns about safeguarding, not to accede to that pressure because it opens up the other argument about where to draw the line. As I say, there were smaller but substantial numbers of non-teaching staff—some 1,700—against whom allegations were also made. I simply sound a cautionary note to the Minister. I hope that we do not find further down the line that a serial abuser—there have been serial abusers in schools—gets away with abuse over a long period because none of his—they are generally men—crimes could be reported because the evidence in relation to each one never reached the threshold for prosecution. I hope that in passing this legislation we are not responsible for the preventable abuse of any child. I say this without wanting to castigate the Government, but it is very difficult territory and I am not sure we are in the right place. I understand why the Government have done this but we will have to watch the situation very carefully.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, my name is attached to all the government amendments bar one. As the Minister said, these amendments arise out of the debate in Grand Committee and I welcome them all. The only amendment about which I have reservations —because I do not understand it—is the first one, which would insert “or may be” in line 12 on page 20. It would then say that:
“This section applies where a person who is or may be employed or engaged as a teacher”.
Perhaps the Minister could explain the purport of that insertion when he responds.
The only thing I cannot resist saying is that sometimes we make life difficult for ourselves—or, more truthfully, for those who have to understand this legislation. There are two references in Amendment 49 to “a matter”. It states that,
“the person who is the subject of the allegation includes a matter in a publication”.
Such arcane language is surely to be avoided if at all possible. Why we cannot say “includes information in a publication” I do not know, except that there is reference in an earlier subsection to “matter”.
Amendments 48 and 51 concern a more important issue. They represent the two most important amendments I put forward in Grand Committee, which the Government decided not to accept. I have reworded the second of these amendments, Amendment 51, but the first is more or less verbatim the amendment that was argued in Committee. I remind the House that in Committee on 6 July—in cols. GC 158 to 178—not a single Member of the Committee objected to any of the amendments put forward, largely for the reasons that we have just heard. In my view, and I think in that of all who have spoken so far in relation to Clause 13, this is utterly wrong in principle. As has already been said, it will be the first time in English law that free speech has been curtailed in this way and where a statement that is true can be the subject of a criminal prosecution. It is not an issue just of press freedom but of individual freedom. It will curtail the freedom of speech no less of worried parents or guardians. The full panoply of criminal law can be arraigned against a parent who suffers the greatest anxiety in relation to a child, where the child maintains that he or she is being abused. The parent is prevented by law from publicising the allegation of the child, however true, and for what? To protect teachers.
There is no one in this House more admiring of teachers than I am. I find myself in a very strange position on this clause. I wish it were not teachers at whom I seem to be aiming my gun. Freedom of speech and protection of children come before the pain and embarrassment which undoubtedly occur for some teachers with regard to false allegations. I have to say—I do not like saying it—that my Government are bending over so far to placate the teaching profession, and perhaps make up a little to that profession for other actions that they have opposed, that they are committing us to a law which our successors will think was a blot on the great and fundamental freedom of speech that is indispensable, particularly today.
I was a governor for 10 years of one comprehensive school and of another comprehensive school as a parent governor. My wife is a state school teacher. The prejudice that I have is for the teaching profession but I do not speak from ignorance. I should quickly say what I said last time: it is almost a declaration of interest. I was unfortunately at a school where a predatory pederast was allowed for 12 years to do his doleful work. He eventually resigned or was dismissed—one does not know which—in the middle of a term. He was never seen again and absolutely nothing was made of it although he had blighted the lives of dozens of children. The reason that nothing was heard of it is the reason why nothing is heard of these cases in today’s educational world. It is no good the Minister saying that there are regulations for this and obligations to report on that. For schools that suffer some of the worst abuses—fortunately they are few—the truth is that the cost to the school’s reputation and standing of the truth being publicised will be devastating. Often, as in my own case, the governors hushed up the whole grisly affair, as governors today will, if they can, hush up grisly affairs of a comparable nature. That is why I have put forward these amendments and persist in them.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I apologise for interrupting my noble friend but he will be aware that the convention of the House is that 15 minutes is normally considered the maximum speaking time, and he has now been speaking for 19 minutes. I wonder whether he would be kind enough to wrap up his comments.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
I apologise to the House for overrunning the conventional time. I suppose it is because I take such a profoundly serious view of these curtailments of free speech that I have overrun the 15 minutes. However, I will wrap up my remarks quickly. Not one of the statistics to which I referred relates to the subject matter of Clause 13, which is pre-charge publicity—not allegations but pre-charge publicity. As regards allegations, 28 per cent led to disciplinary proceedings, more than 50 per cent had some substance and 18 per cent involved suspensions.
I am grateful to my noble friend for the concessions he has made. He may have had to battle for some of the concessions that he has wrung out of his colleagues. However, he does not accept my Amendment 48, which deals with the raising of the cap on freedom of speech in the case of a teacher who resigns or is dismissed, or Amendment 51, which allows a parent whose child has come home complaining of an assault to at least e-mail the other parents in the class to ask them whether they have had any experience of Mr Jones doing what he ought not to do, or e-mailing the staff, for example. To prohibit that seems to me utterly wrong. I speak to these two amendments in that spirit.
Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, I have some amendments in this group. Like my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury, I welcome the Government’s amendments. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Phillips on his success in persuading the Government to improve this clause as far as they have. However, I join him in urging the Minister to consider whether he could go a little further. There is devastating logic in what my noble friend says. I am also aware of cases where the abusing teacher has been asked to go away quietly so that no more will be said about the matter. Speaking of logic, I have two amendments in this group which seek to follow government policy and prevent an unintended consequence of this section of the Bill.
Noble Lords may remember that in Committee, speaking to Clause 42 stand part, my noble friend Lady Brinton said on behalf of both of us:
“I would also like to ensure that, where there has been abuse, the subsequent inspection overtly inspects what action has been taken, and openly reports whether the failures that allowed the abuse to occur have been put right. … Parents expect it, and children deserve it”.—[Official Report, 12/9/11; col. GC 117.]
I hope that the Minister will agree with that because it was the 22nd recommendation of the report of Sir Roger Singleton of June 2009, which was agreed to by the then DCSF under the previous Government. Significantly, the DfE under this Government also confirmed adherence to that positive response given in June 2009. Indeed, I know that our honourable friend Mr Tim Loughton has been considering how he can implement this and other recommendations of the Singleton report. There was some news of that only this morning.
Of course, I am aware that Clause 13 only prevents a publication identifying a teacher who is the subject of an allegation. However, the difficulty sometimes arises where writing anything at all about an event might lead to readers having a very good idea of who it might have been. For example, if something occurred on a field trip and there had only been one field trip that year, then it would be possible to identify the alleged perpetrator. So my amendments seek to ensure that we do not fetter the ability of a regulator or a responsible Ofsted inspector to do their jobs properly and to write in their reports about what happened and how the school has, or has not, put measures in place to prevent a repetition. This is what Sir Roger Singleton recommended should happen and that wish has since been endorsed by the previous Government and the current one.
So I hope that the Minister will now see that, in tabling Amendments 50A and 50B, I am trying to avoid that unintended consequence. I believe that Clause 13 as currently written could prevent a regulator or inspector from producing an adequate school inspection report following a case of abuse; a report which stated what action the school has taken. Has my noble friend had time to consider these small, but, I hope, helpful amendments, since they seek to implement what I believe to be the intentions of the Government as well as of the previous Government; intentions which were so well set out by Sir Roger Singleton’s recommendations?
I support what my noble friend and the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, have said about the research that has been circulated to us from York Consulting. I looked at that myself, quite independently of my noble friend and the noble Baroness, and it occurred to me too that there was not a single fact in there that supports the need for this legislation; not one fact that talked about hyped-up, unwarranted publication of the name of a teacher prior to charge. There were lots of statistics about the increase in the number of allegations, lots of statistics about how many of those were eventually found to be unwarranted, but not a thing about publicity. So I still have great reservations about this legislation, despite the fact that in Amendments 50A and 50B I am trying to improve it, because I just do not feel that the Government have yet disclosed to us the pressing need for it, despite what the teaching unions would perhaps like to see. I really would say to the teaching unions—and I have said to the teaching unions—give me the evidence. Where is the evidence about these large amounts of terrible publicity that have brought the Government to decide that they need this legislation? I simply have not seen it yet.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
My Lords, despite the late hour I think that this debate should not be curtailed, because it is so important. I have to express my great disappointment in the Government for not listening to the arguments that were made so cogently in Committee and again by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips. I want to ask the Minister whether some of my experiences would not now be possible. For 13 years I was chief executive of Childline, the helpline for children in trouble and in danger, and this month that helpline is 25 years old. During the time it has been operating, it has cracked a large number of rings and groups and situations where teachers have been abusing children. Children have been able to telephone the helpline and describe what has been happening to them.
Let me tell your Lordships about two cases because they are crucial. We had a series of boys ringing independently from a particular school, all telling us about the same teacher and similar abuse. We were able to get those boys to talk to their parents, to get the parents to come together, and together to take that issue forward, which ended up in a very serious prosecution of that teacher who went to prison. The other situation was that of Crookham Court, a very famous case, where a group of teachers were preying, just as the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, described, on a group of children. We intervened in that situation by getting the proprietor out of the school and getting my chair, who happened to be Esther Rantzen, into the school to bring the whole situation into the open. That was again a very famous case when a series of people went to prison for a long time for serial abuse of children in a school.
I believe that those two cases could not happen under these arrangements. We would be prevented from encouraging people to share information that brings serial abusers to court. I do not think that the Government intend that to happen. I do not wish to believe that the Minister and his colleagues would wish that to happen. I do not like speaking at length as it is late and I, too, would like to go home, but the only other point I want to make is that if the Minister had worked for years, as I have, with young people who have to come to court and describe their abuse—the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, made this point—he would know that it is extraordinarily difficult for children and young people to make allegations because they know they have to say it again. Would noble Lords like to have to stand up and tell me about their recent sexual experience? We ask children to talk about extraordinarily painful sexual abuse in court, which they find extremely difficult. That is why I spent nine years of my life working towards children, as witnesses, not having to face the court but being able to give their evidence behind a screen. I am proud of that achievement.
If the Government take it through, we will condemn a large number of children and their parents to terrific pain. I ask the Minister to take it back to his masters and convey the message in the strongest possible terms, otherwise I predict there will be cause to rue the day.
Lord Black of Brentwood
My Lords, I do not wish to detain the House for terribly long but I would be grateful if I can say a few words as I raised this issue for the first time at Second Reading and then talked with the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, about it in Committee. As this is an issue that affects the media, I declare an interest as executive director of the Telegraph Media Group. On Second Reading, I originally raised three concerns. The first was about the workability of these proposals and whether it was possible to muzzle the printed press and broadcast media in a digital age when gossip at the school gate would simply be transformed into dialogue on social media. The second was about the impact on press freedom and open justice, particularly because of the lack in this legislation of a public interest defence. The third, about which we have heard eloquent testimony this evening, was about the welfare of vulnerable children. Underlying all that was a belief that the case had not been made out for a substantial incursion into freedom of expression. The noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, spoke earlier of the latest statistics showing that only 2 per cent of cases related to malicious allegations. That is a very small number and in none of those has it been proved that publicity was responsible for that.
Those were my concerns. All that said, I am very grateful to the Government for having taken a number of those issues on board. Amendment 44 goes a considerable way to protecting the rights of children. It gives the courts the opportunity to balance the victim with the perpetrator of the crime. Amendment 49, which relates to individual teachers putting material into the public domain, again goes some way to dealing with the impact on the media and open justice, and I think helps to bring this legislation much more into line with the Human Rights Act 1998, which protects material which is in the public domain. That seems to me to be of especial importance in view of the concern I expressed about the impact of social media on this legislation.
I wish that the Government had been able to go further. Indeed, I wish that this clause had not been in the Bill in the first place. However, these changes seem practical and welcome, and may go some way to ensuring that these provisions will have a much less significant impact on the rights of children and on the free media than when the Bill was originally drafted.
I should add that, as a result of these amendments, and the explanations that the Minister has given today, I see no need for my own part—although it is still a matter for the noble Lord, Lord Phillips—to press Amendment 48 or Amendment 51, and withdraw my name and support from those.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, we had a very good debate about this issue in Committee, and, although the hour is late, we have just had another such debate this evening. I recognise the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, made at the beginning: this is not a completely straightforward issue. There are difficult interests to balance. I understand the force of the arguments that have been made about the importance of safeguarding children. I am extremely clear that a huge amount of progress has been made over the years in making children safer in school, thanks to steps taken by the last Government, and no doubt Governments before that. To respond to the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, we have no desire to do anything to unwind or undermine any of that. I listened with care to the point she made about Childline. My understanding is that the Bill would not prevent children talking to Childline, and Childline talking to parents. However, I understand the force of what she was saying, and I will check that that is the case. Clearly one would not want a measure inadvertently to have the effect which she raised.
At the heart of this, and the reason why the Government are doing this, is the evidence that has been provided to us on this issue. I think that that evidence is not contested: I know that there is a difference of opinion about the strength of the evidence of the number of cases of pre-charge publicity in the press, but there is an acceptance that we have a problem, that there is a growing number of allegations made against teachers, that teachers are fearful of this trend, and that they are fearful of the effect that it has on their ability to exercise their position of authority in the classroom. We think that they have a particular position—
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend the Minister, but he is wrong about these statistics. The JCHR misread the NASUWT statistics. I said in Grand Committee that,
“for the past three years there has been a decline”,
in the number of allegations—and this is on the statistics in the JCHR report. In 2008, there were not 181, as there had been the previous year,
“but 148; in 2009, 115; and, last year, 107. Yet the Minister in the other place said that the number of allegations had increased, which is simply wrong”.—[Official Report, 6/7/11; col. GC 172.]
With great respect, I suggest to the Minister that he does not follow down that fallacious track.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I will look at the figures again in the light of what my noble friend said. I would not want to go down a fallacious track. I recognise the difficulties that the issue poses. I know how strongly my noble friend feels about it. I have been able to discuss it with him on a number of occasions in recent months. He made a very powerful speech tonight and I know that underlying all of this is his passionate commitment to the principle of freedom of expression. I know that that drives him and that it is an important principle.
I know as well that his amendments are designed to improve a clause that he and my noble friend Lord Black of Brentwood would rather see removed altogether from the Bill. I thank him for his approach in trying to come up with ways of improving what clearly he thinks is a deficient measure. Two government amendments in this group are improvements that he has prompted to the clause. I am grateful to him for that and for the remarks that my noble friend Lord Black made about those improvements and the reassurance that they provided for him.
The fundamental concern of my noble friend Lord Phillips is that the clause interferes with the principle of freedom of expression. I understand that. That is part of the reason that the Government have sought to draw the clause in a narrow way, limiting it to pre-charge reporting of allegations against teachers by current pupils, despite calls that we faced at the beginning of proceedings on the Bill from various quarters—including a number from this House—for us to go much further in extending these measures. We resisted that pressure and I think that the feeling of the House at this point is that it was right to do that. I understand the principle of which my noble friend is a passionate champion, but I contend that it needs to be balanced with the need to protect teachers against the damage that can be done by false allegations and by press reporting of them. We seek to strike a balance and this debate is about whether we have got it right.
Baroness Walmsley
Perhaps I may ask my noble friend a question. I apologise and will make it very quick. Can he tell us how many allegations where the teacher has been identified have been reported prior to charge in the past two or three years? My noble friend suggests that there have been six. Another noble Lord said five. Do the Government think that the correct number is a multiple of that? We simply have not been told.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, getting an accurate picture of the extent of the problem is difficult. I accept the point made by my noble friend Lord Phillips that, through the research that the department has carried out by going online and looking at local press reporting as best it can, so far the number of cases that it has come up with is a multiple of five, but not many multiples of five. I think that the number circulated after the recent survey carried out for the department was 15. I accept that that is not a large number. However, the principle and the concern that underlie it are what we seek to address.
I will now address the amendments that my noble friend tabled rather than the general principle. The first area where he thinks that the clause gets the balance wrong is in relation to communication within the school community. His Amendment 51 seeks to ensure that pupils or parents will not breach reporting restrictions by communicating with other parents and other members of school staff. An example of where this might happen is if the parent wishes to communicate with other parents about an allegation that their child has made against a teacher. I should clarify that parents would not breach reporting restrictions by holding private conversations whether in person or online. The reporting restrictions would apply only to communication to the public at large or any section of the public.
My noble friend argued that a parent might wish to communicate with a section of the public in this way in order to seek corroboration of an allegation against a teacher before raising it with the school. We think that the effect of his amendment would be wider than that and would exempt from reporting restrictions communications by any pupil or any person acting on behalf of the pupil to any section of the school community and so reduce the protection the clause gives teachers against malicious or unfounded gossip. For example, it would allow pupils or parents to use a forum on the school network to publish an allegation against a teacher widely within the school community. I agree with my noble friend that parents should be free to follow up allegations made by their children, but I do think—I know he was dismissive of this point—that they should do that through appropriate channels by raising the issue with the school or the relevant authorities rather than by launching their own inquiries or campaigns. He knows, because I have discussed it with him before, that I am aware of a number of cases where e-mail campaigns against teachers are led by parents to whip up a campaign against them. We would not want that to be allowed to happen.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
The Minister is surely aware that if anybody whipped up, as he put it, a campaign that was untrue, they would be subject to very heavy libel or slander damages.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I am aware of that, and we have discussed that point before. I know that is the case, and I defer to my noble friend who is a very distinguished lawyer, who I think used to do libel. To expect a teacher who finds himself the subject of a malicious campaign to take a libel case on his own account, financially, emotionally or in any other way, is not a practical course of action.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
In making that comment, does the Minister feel that a teacher cannot take that action but that a parent, with all the distress that they are feeling about their child having accused a teacher of abuse, can go to a judicial review with all that means without the support of other parents? That is simply not the real world. Does the Minister not agree that there is some imbalance in the two things that he has just described?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I did not say that a parent who has concerns would have to go to judicial review. I am arguing that for a parent who has those concerns— I agree 100 per cent with the noble Baroness that a parent would want to have them investigated and taken forward—there are a number of ways, whether through the police, the local authority, the LADO, and so on, to make sure that those concerns are investigated. I am not at all saying that if they have concerns I would expect them to have to go to judicial review.
We are absolutely clear that genuine victims of abuse must be able to disclose the abuse and that such reports must be investigated properly. These provisions do not interfere with that. They do not prevent the police interviewing witnesses. We think that effective investigations are possible without press reporting. The police can seek to lift the reporting restrictions if necessary to draw attention to an issue if they are seeking more information about a particular person.
The other amendment proposed by my noble friend would mean that reporting restrictions would lift when a person who is the subject of an allegation resigned or was dismissed from the relevant employment. He is concerned that without this amendment, Clause 13 may help schools cover up misconduct and argues that press reporting is an important check on such behaviour.
One difficulty with the amendment is that its implications would go well beyond this issue; for example, it would mean that any teacher who resigned to take up a post at another school would lose their protection against the reporting of allegations, even if the allegation was unfounded and had no influence on the teacher’s decision to resign. We are committed to ensuring that genuine allegations of abuse are investigated properly by the appropriate authorities. Schools have a statutory duty to investigate allegations and, where appropriate, to refer them to the relevant authority. Our new statutory guidance on this subject makes absolutely clear that if a person tenders his or her resignation or ceases to provide their services, that must not prevent an allegation being investigated. If it is well founded, the investigation will lead to the police bringing a charge or to the regulator holding a hearing. At that point, the reporting restrictions will lift. If there is insufficient evidence to reach this point, we think it is right that the teacher’s anonymity is protected and their reputation and career safeguarded.
I accept that a small minority of heads may in theory seek to cover up allegations or may not be as swift in acting on them as we would wish. However, I do not think that press reporting is the best or the only way to counter this possibility. If parents or others are not satisfied that schools are dealing with an allegation, they have recourse other than through the press: they can refer the case to the national regulator; they can ask the Secretary of State to investigate and exercise his powers of direction; they can go directly to the police if they consider a criminal offence may have been committed. In addition, if any person feels that there is a strong public interest in publishing details of identifying information about a teacher against whom allegations of criminal behaviour have been made, they can apply to the local magistrates for reporting restrictions to be lifted.
I will quickly reply to a couple of less contentious points. My noble friend Lord Phillips asked about government Amendment 42. In order to cover ambiguous allegations that someone might be guilty of an offence where, for example, a pupil claims, “I think it was teacher X who did it”, we have changed the definition from,
“an allegation that the person is guilty of a relevant criminal offence”,
to “may be” guilty of an offence.
My noble friend Lady Walmsley was worried that Clause 13 might unintentionally hinder Ofsted from including information in its reports that it would otherwise want to include. I recognise her concerns about that. In cases where a school is found to be failing to implement arrangements for safeguarding and promoting the welfare of children appropriately, we expect inspectors to include judgments or commentary about such failings in published reports. In light of her concerns, my officials contacted Ofsted today to ask whether it thinks there is a risk that Clause 13 might constrain inspectors in making their reports. Ofsted said that inspectors would not feel constrained in reporting on a safeguarding issue. As a matter of general policy, they always take care in writing reports to ensure that no individuals can be identified. Of course, if the inspectors uncover safeguarding concerns during an inspection they can and should provide full detail, including the identities of those concerned to the appropriate authorities and the reporting restrictions would not interfere with that in any way.
Those were the less contentious ones. I understand the strength of the feeling of my noble friend Lord Phillips, and the passion with which he has argued this evening. I have been able to agree with him on two of the improvements to the clause that he has proposed. I know he will not agree with me but I think there are difficulties with the two further ones he has put forward—that they would weaken the protection that we are seeking to give to teachers—and I ask him to withdraw his amendments.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall)
My Lords, I should point out to the House, if I may, that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, has not actually moved his amendment. It has not yet come up. My duty at this moment is to ask the House whether it wishes to agree to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hill, which, if I may, I will now do.
Lord Hill of Oareford
(b) the victim of the offence to which the allegation relates.”
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
(c) the person who is the subject of the allegation resigns or is dismissed from the relevant employment or engagement.”
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, in the light of what the Minister said—if I can put it this way without seeming to be patronising—he made the very best of a lousy hand. Given the time of night and the payroll vote visibly present on the Front Bench, prudence gets the better of passion, and I fear that, for tonight, free speech and the protection of children will have to be left on the sidelines, so I do not move the amendment.
Lord Hill of Oareford
“(11A) The restrictions in subsection (3) also cease to apply if—
(a) the person who is the subject of the allegation includes a matter in a publication, or(b) another person includes a matter in a publication with the written consent of the person who is the subject of the allegation;and, in either case, the inclusion of the matter in the publication would otherwise be in breach of subsection (3).(11B) Written consent is to be ignored for the purposes of subsection (11A)(b) if it is proved that any person interfered unreasonably with the peace or comfort of the person giving the consent, with intent to obtain it.”
Lord Hill of Oareford
“( ) For the purposes of this section, proceedings for an offence are instituted at the earliest of the following times—
(a) when a justice of the peace issues a summons or warrant under section 1 of the Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980 in respect of the offence; (b) when a public prosecutor issues a written charge and requisition in respect of the offence;(c) when a person is charged with the offence after being taken into custody without a warrant;(d) when a bill of indictment is preferred by virtue of section 2(2)(b) of the Administration of Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1933.”