House of Commons
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Prayers
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Oral Answers to Questions
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
1. What the average spend per head of population on transport services was in (a) Yorkshire and (b) London in the last 12 months.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
The Treasury estimates that identifiable public expenditure on transport in 2012-13, the most recent year for which full figures are available, was £246 per head in Yorkshire and the Humber and £545 per head in London.
Mr Sheerman
When it comes to statistics, I tend to trust the Institute for Public Policy Research and the House of Commons Library more than I do the Department. The last time IPPR North looked at the figures on infrastructure spending, it was approximately £2,500 per capita in London and £500 in the north-east. Infrastructure investment is desperately needed outside London. Why can the Secretary of State not make a commitment? He has his heart in the north. Why does he not do something about it?
Mr McLoughlin
The hon. Gentleman can use whichever statistics and figures he wishes to. I, too, have asked for other figures. In 2009-10, the spend for Yorkshire and the Humber was £283 per head and £754 per head in London. I am pleased that under this Government transport spending in the north has gone up from 38% to 45%. It is important to make the point that the Kings Cross station development and the Alexandra Palace to Finsbury Park six-tracking are allocated to London spending, but the benefits will be enjoyed by all east coast main line users. It is not always possible to put the value of spending down to certain parts of the country.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
We have seen good progress on rail investment, particularly in the north. What impact does the Secretary of State think HS2 will have on the local economy in Yorkshire?
Mr McLoughlin
HS2 is vital for the long-term capacity of the rail network. We have seen a massive increase in patronage, both in passengers and freight, and I welcome that. If we are to see that continue to grow, we have to increase capacity.
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)
The spend in London reflects the importance of transport to London. Even as we speak, millions of Londoners are struggling to work because of the dispute. We know that the majority of Londoners do not want every ticket office closed down. What is the Secretary of State doing to make the Mayor of London negotiate with the RMT?
Mr McLoughlin
The other day I heard the leader of the RMT say that his holiday last week was planned 11 months ago. Presumably, when he called the strike date, he knew when his holiday was. The least he could have done was to abandon his holiday before the strike action and be in the country, ready to negotiate. I am waiting for the hon. Lady and other Opposition Members to condemn this outrageous strike action, which is causing nothing but misery to millions of people who work in London. They should condemn it, as I do.
Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)
The spend on transport services in Yorkshire and London must also include the compensation paid to people adversely affected by services such as HS2. When are the Government going to pull their finger out and announce the compensation package for my constituents and others affected up and down the country, and let them know what they can expect to get for their properties, which are being rendered worthless by this scheme?
Mr McLoughlin
My right hon. Friend knows that I take the issue of compensation incredibly seriously. We promised to consult again on this and we have done that. I will attempt to come forward with the conclusions of that consultation as soon as possible. I am in no doubt about the problems faced by many people on the proposed route, and I take those responsibilities very seriously indeed.
Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
Is it not a fact that it takes two sides to create industrial action? The problem with the Tory Front Bench is that they dare not attack Boris Johnson for not conducting talks, because half of the Tory MPs want Boris Johnson to be their next leader. That is the reason.
Mr McLoughlin
I will try to stay in order, Mr Speaker. The hon. Gentleman says it takes two to talk, but if one of the main leaders is out of the country the week before—Rio Bob, I think we should call him—then it is difficult to have those conversations.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
The main cheerleader for HS2 in the midlands has consistently been the Birmingham chamber of commerce. We now discover it received £14,400 from HS2 for the period between September 2013 and August 2014 in so-called patronage fees. It has always been my understanding that patrons provide funding, not receive payment as an inducement. Will my right hon. Friend point out what other organisations have received similar patronage fees from HS2 for supporting this project?
Mr McLoughlin
What matters is that HS2 is of fundamental importance not just to Birmingham, but to Manchester and all our other northern cities. It is a very important project that deserves the support of the House, but I understand that people who have the route going through their constituencies have big problems, and I will always meet colleagues to discuss them.
Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)
2. What steps he is taking to increase the availability of wi-fi on the UK rail network.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
I fully recognise the importance of good mobile services for passengers on board trains. We have met the rail industry and secured its agreement to roll out improvements to mobile services across the rail network, starting this year. We expect significant improvements across key routes, starting with comprehensive coverage achieved by 2019. Network Rail and train operators are working jointly to fund and deliver the improvements based on collaborations with mobile network operators.
Sheryll Murray
Will my right hon. Friend ensure that my constituents have trains that are running with adequate seating so that people can use the wi-fi?
Mr McLoughlin
I will say something in topical questions about the appalling situation faced by Devon and Cornwall MPs as regards the rail service in their areas. I fully accept what my hon. Friend says. I met her and other Members last night to discuss the situation and its effect on their constituencies, and I will be saying a little more later on.
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
While good wi-fi is important for rail travellers, the trains need to be running in the first place, so I will invite the Secretary of State, if he does not mind, to say a little more about what he is doing to ensure that this vital main line into the south-west is reopened as quickly as possible, and about what he will do in the long-term to help deal with the vulnerability of the line at Dawlish?
Mr McLoughlin
I am trying to keep in order by sticking to the issue of wi-fi, but I well understand the concerns of the right hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members who came to see me last night, with Robin Gisby, the managing director of Network Rail, to talk about the situation at Dawlish and how it has basically cut off services to Devon and Cornwall. I have not yet had the full engineering report, because it has not been possible to get it, but I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that I am working with Network Rail to restore the service as quickly as possible and to carry out a more vigorous review of some of the alternatives available.
Mr Speaker
As the Clerk Assistant has just pointed out to me, Members’ approach to Question 2 might best be described as “broadband”.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
On the same theme, it is important to recognise that to have a resilient wi-fi service on our rail service, we need to have a resilient rail service. In view of the Secretary of State’s earlier reply, does he not accept that if we are to invest properly in a resilient service down to Penzance, in my constituency, we need to ensure that there is funding comparable to the money being spent on HS2 and other services?
Mr McLoughlin
I will be asking for further work to be done on the question of resilience in the south-west, as I indicated to the hon. Gentleman in the meeting last night. Over the next five years, between 2014 and 2019, Network Rail will be spending £38 billion on the existing railway network. There is, therefore, no shortage of understanding from the Government of the importance of rail services across the whole country. As far as services in Devon and Cornwall are concerned, I also take those responsibilities incredibly seriously.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
The introduction of wi-fi on First Great Western is undoubtedly good news for passengers, but given that the Government’s incompetent franchise extension negotiations have lost the taxpayer £100 million in premium payments this year, is this not the most expensive internet upgrade in history?
Mr McLoughlin
I am not sure what that has to do with the internet upgrade. Obviously, when a new franchise contract, or short-term contract, is leased, various matters are taken into account, including the age and replacement of rolling stock. If the Labour party is not committed to that, I wonder what Labour Members would say to Bombardier, which today won a rolling stock contract that will be very important to Derby and Derbyshire. Would they say that they were opposed to it?
Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
3. What support is available to people with disabilities at railway stations with no disabled access.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)
The Equality Act 2010 requires station operators to address the needs of disabled travellers. So far, 153 station access projects have been authorised, of which 38 are on site and the remainder have already been completed.
Joan Walley
The policy of East Midlands Trains, which runs trains through Kidsgrove station in my constituency, is that
“if you want to travel to and from stations which are inaccessible, you can do so at no extra cost.”
But would it not make far more sense for the Government to approve the plans for disabled access at Kidsgrove in April? This is a real cost-of-living issue. It would be much cheaper for the Government to do that, and much better for disabled people.
Mr Goodwill
The Government have announced the provision of a further £100 million to extend the scheme to 2019. In order to qualify, stations must meet three important criteria. We expect to announce 53 projects in April that have been approved under the scheme.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
May I urge the Minister to ensure, when he announces those projects, that Alfreton station, which is in my constituency, is included? Disabled access to both platforms is long overdue, and it really should be provided in the next year.
Mr Goodwill
The criteria that we apply when assessing stations for the purposes of the scheme are the footfall—if that is the right word to use—of disabled people at stations, the level of use, and the number of disabled people in the area.
Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)
Just one in five railway stations is fully accessible to disabled passengers, but from 2014 the Minister is cutting funds for the Access for All programme from £43 million a year to £25 million. His Department has said that involving disabled organisations in decisions about which stations should have priority
“would add little value to the process”.
How can people with disabilities have any trust that the Government are on their side?
Mr Goodwill
We are continuing the scheme that was initiated by the last Government. By 2015, 75% of journeys will be step-free, as opposed to 50% in 2006.
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
4. What steps he is taking to improve safety on motorways.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)
Motorways are the safest roads in the country. The Highways Agency network carries 32.7% of all traffic, but accounts for only 6.8% of those killed or seriously injured. Hard-shoulder running on smart motorways is delivering further improvements.
Mr Bain
Does the Minister not accept that opening a stretch of hard shoulder permanently, while reducing the amount of signage and the number of emergency refuge areas on our managed motorways, is an example of the Government giving reduced costs a higher priority than road safety?
Mr Goodwill
The hon. Gentleman has got it completely wrong. I know that this seems counter-intuitive, but 8% of fatalities take place on the hard shoulders of existing motorways, although only a very small proportion of traffic is on them. Hard-shoulder running, managed motorways and smart motorways have been a great success, and have reduced the number of accidents on those sections of the motorway by 50%.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
I agree with my hon. Friend that the standard of safety on motorways is very high, but he and I would both benefit from improved safety on the A64. Will he update the House on the progress that is being made with better road improvements, less congestion and the easing of traffic on the A64 between York and Scarborough?
Mr Goodwill
I suppose that I should declare an interest, as the Member of Parliament for Scarborough.
We have tripled spending on road projects since we came to power, which will mean that roads such as the A64 are likely to have a much better chance of improving. In the short term, I am interested to note that a trial that is taking place on the A9 in Scotland, where the speed limit for lorries is being increased from 40 to 50 mph. We hope that will reduce the number of nasty accidents caused by people overtaking in dangerous places.
Mr Speaker
The road in question is immensely important, but I do not think that it is a motorway,
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
A broadband approach.
Mr Speaker
Indeed. There is a degree of ingenuity about the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) with which I am very familiar.
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
13. The great British pub is well sited in many places, but I suggest that junction 2 of the M40—or, indeed, any other motorway junction—is not one of them. Organisations such as Brake are firmly against the siting of a pub there, and a survey from the RAC has now shown that two thirds of the British public are against it as well. Will the Minister please look into this issue? It is nonsense to have a pub at a motorway service station.
Mr Goodwill
I understand that the pub in that particular case is at a motorway service area that is served by other roads as well as the motorway, and these decisions are a matter for local authorities. Every pub in the country is served by a road, and it is up to drivers to act responsibly and ensure that they do not drink and drive.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend share my concern that expecting the police to enforce the proposed new offence of smoking in cars with children present will divert them away from other duties, which could have a direct impact on motorway safety?
Mr Goodwill
That is probably a matter for the Secretary of State for Health. There will be a free vote on Monday on that subject, and I will certainly be voting to ban smoking in cars where children are present, having had to sit in the back of the car at a young age feeling green and carsick while my father was puffing away.
Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)
5. What assessment he has made of the availability of bus services across the country.
Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)
12. What assessment he has made of the availability of bus services across the country.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)
Decisions about the provision of bus services outside London are a matter for commercial bus operators and local authorities, who are best placed to identify the transport needs in their areas. Ministers and officials are in regular contact with bus sector stakeholders such as local authorities and the Confederation of Passenger Transport about developments in the bus market. My noble Friend Baroness Kramer will also chair the next meeting of the Bus Partnership Forum this week, bringing together all those with an interest in the provision of bus services.
Chris Williamson
First, may I put it on record that my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby South (Margaret Beckett) and I very much welcome the Crossrail announcement, which will secure the long-term future of rail manufacturing in Derby? My question is about buses, however. The Minister will be aware that Government figures show that, as a result of Government cuts, there has been a 17% reduction in the number of supported bus services in this country. Will it not render meaningless the Prime Minister’s commitment to securing the pensioners bus pass if there are no buses for pensioners to use in the first place?
Mr Goodwill
Local authorities have certainly had to make some difficult decisions, but the fact remains that 44% of the money that goes to bus companies comes, in one way or another, from the taxpayer. We should look carefully at the working of the bus service operators grant, which is a fuel subsidy, because it seems to be a very blunt tool to support services that are under threat, particularly in rural areas.
Andy Sawford
Many bus services in my area have been cut altogether, and some of those that are left are of poor quality. Will the Minister help my constituents by encouraging the Vehicle and Operator Service Agency to investigate why the Centrebus service between Raunds and Thrapston frequently either fails to arrive or breaks down?
Mr Goodwill
I will certainly be happy to do that. I also recommend that the operator Stagecoach should go to Scarborough and order a new fleet of buses, made in my constituency, to solve that problem.
Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)
At a time when Lancashire county council is making further piecemeal reductions to my local bus network, will Ministers urge local authorities and private sector bus companies to involve passengers far more in the design of local networks, to ensure that the buses go to the locations that passengers actually want them to go to?
Mr Goodwill
A number of local authorities up and down the country are looking at intelligent ways of addressing that problem, including utilising dial-a-ride and community buses more. People tend to defend the status quo, but it is often the case that alternative solutions can be more acceptable, particularly to older people who travel during the daytime.
Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
Does not bus availability also include bus accessibility? With fares going up and the number of services going down, are Ministers not making disabled passengers second-class citizens by ducking out of enforcing new European standards that require bus operators to give their staff disability awareness training, as rail operators have to do? The Transport Select Committee, disability charities and tens of thousands of disabled people think that the Government should sign up to that new standard. A month ago, the Minister promised in Westminster Hall that his Department would review the training opt-out in March. Will he now tell disabled passengers whether he will give them that support—yes or no?
Mr Goodwill
As I made clear during the Westminster Hall debate, a large number of bus operators are doing this voluntarily, and we certainly support a voluntary approach, rather than regulation.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
6. What plans he has to set up a High Speed 2 skills academy.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
In January, the Government announced their intention to set up a new college to train the next generation of world-class engineers to work on the construction of High Speed 2. My Department is working with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and HS2 Ltd to develop the proposals, which are currently at an early stage.
Andrew Percy
My right hon. Friend will know of the proud manufacturing heritage in the Humber—in east Yorkshire and north Lincolnshire. May I suggest that he ensures that any such skills academy is located in the Humber, and that a perfect location would be in Scunthorpe, which was recently awarded a university technical college?
Mr McLoughlin
I am pleased about the awarding of the UTC in my hon. Friend’s area, and he doubtless campaigned for it vigorously. I know that he will continue the campaign to get the HS2 skills college. I have had a number of requests from various hon. Members as to where this college should be located.
Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)
As an ex-apprentice, I am very passionate about the idea of creating more apprenticeships, and this project presents an ideal opportunity. Labour is committed to creating one apprenticeship for every £1 million spent. Will the Government do likewise?
Mr McLoughlin
What is important is the way in which we have massively increased the number of apprenticeships. Part of today’s announcement about Bombardier means that there will be an increase in apprenticeships in that area, and I am looking at every possible avenue to encourage apprenticeships.
Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con)
Again, may I congratulate Ministers on the brilliant result of Bombardier getting the Crossrail deal and the 80 apprentices that that contract will bring? Would it not make complete sense for this academy to be based in Derby?
Mr McLoughlin
As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), there will be a number of applications for the location of this academy. I join my hon. Friend the Member for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler) in congratulating Bombardier, which won this Crossrail contract against some stiff competition. It just shows that Bombardier can win competitions for rolling stock and that the Government are committed to providing that rolling stock, too.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
What assessment was made of the capacity and expertise of existing further education colleges before the decision was made to spend £20 million of scarce public money on a new academy?
Mr McLoughlin
I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman seems not to be bidding; there will be one fewer venue to consider as a result of that sort of intervention. It is not often I hear people complaining about the Government investing in higher education and the future of our engineering skills. I am very proud we are doing it—it will be £20 million well spent.
Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)
7. What steps he is taking to improve value for money for rail passengers.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
We are driving efficiencies through our franchising programme and franchise management, and by encouraging co-operation across the industry. Working with the regulator, we have cut Network Rail’s costs by 40% since 2004, and it has a further efficiency target of just under 20% by 2019. We have also shown our commitment to giving value for money this year by capping the average regulated fare rise at the retail prices index only. That is the first time this has happened in 10 years.
Mr Raab
I thank the Secretary of State for that answer, and I welcome all the measures to which he has referred. Last year, South West Trains paid the Department for Transport the highest premium per passenger kilometre of any operator but had the fourth highest level of overcrowding in London and the south-east. So what more can be done to deliver better value for money for passengers on South West Trains?
Mr McLoughlin
I fully accept the points about my hon. Friend’s constituents, and one thing we have been doing is increasing the availability of rolling stock. A number of new trains are on order which will serve his constituents, and I hope that that will bring some relief to the overcrowding. He rightly says that a number of commuters live in his area, and there are problems in providing the peak-hour trains for everybody who wants to travel then. That is why I want to see further encouragements to spread the morning rush hour.
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)
Value for money for passengers travelling down to the south-west has always been an issue, but with the destruction of the rail line there is growing concern that the need to spend money following this climate problem will fall to passengers and they will find themselves picking up the bill. Will the Secretary of State confirm that the Prime Minister’s promise made yesterday, which can be found at column 269 of Hansard, will be honoured and that the Government will take their share of the burden?
Mr McLoughlin
I am glad that the hon. Lady could join me at the meeting last night with Network Rail, and I am grateful to all the colleagues who attended at short notice. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government will make a statement later this morning and give further details of the help that we will make available to those areas. No one can have seen the pictures of Dawlish yesterday without having tremendous sympathy or realising the scale of the problems that we have to overcome.
Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend accept that passengers from my constituency on the West Anglia line could be more readily persuaded that there will be value for money if there were an early promise of new, not hand-me-down, rolling stock to replace the elderly type 317s on which they mostly have to rely?
Mr McLoughlin
I know that my right hon. Friend continues to make this case—he made it to me when I was in his constituency not many months ago—and I will bear in mind what he says. We are investing huge amounts in new rolling stock, including the new intercity express trains, the new trains for Crossrail and the other rolling stock orders that we have placed, which will benefit the travelling public.
Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)
15. The efficiency of the underground railway in London is the reason, we are told, why the changes will be made. While my constituents welcome the increased hours that the underground is likely to be open, they are concerned that it will mean fewer staff on duty overall. I have written to Transport for London to ask how many staff will be on duty, for example, at Angel, Islington at 3 am, but it has been unable to tell me. Will the Secretary of State help? Would he allow his teenage children on the underground at 3 am? Does he think that would be safe?
Mr McLoughlin
The hon. Lady says that her constituents rely on the underground, but I have yet to hear any Opposition Member condemn the strike action that is causing suffering to many millions of people in London and surrounding areas. It is all very well calling for extra capacity on the railways and the underground, but if strike action means that people cannot use them, it is ineffective.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
8. What recent progress has been made on (a) Highways Agency works to widen the A14 between junctions 7 and 9 and (b) Network Rail’s reconstruction of the Pytchley Road road bridge over the Midland main line in Kettering.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)
I am sure my hon. Friend will welcome the news that works to widen this section of the A14 around Kettering are under way. Widening the eastbound carriageway has begun and is due to be completed in approximately four months’ time. Work will then follow on the westbound carriageway.
Network Rail installed the new Pytchley Road bridge deck over the Midland main line over the Christmas period and is now reconstructing the road over it. This work is on programme for completion by the end of February.
Mr Hollobone
I welcome the Government’s direct investment in the transport infrastructure in Kettering, but can I point out to the Minister that while residents will welcome the works once completed, they are causing a huge amount of traffic disruption to residents in Kettering? There is concern that both projects are being undertaken at the same time. Can I seek his guarantee that the work on the Pytchley Road bridge will be completed on time at the end of this month?
Mr Goodwill
I can certainly give him that assurance. The Pytchley Road bridge is part of the electrification that we are carrying out on the railways. We have already announced 800 miles of electrification, compared with 9 miles under the previous Government. The decision was taken to do the two works simultaneously, and we are using the same traffic management company to try to ensure that we co-ordinate the disruption that sadly always happens when that type of work is done.
Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con)
9. What plans he has to introduce new rolling stock on the railways.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
I would draw the House’s attention to my statement this morning about the preferred bidder for the £1 billion Crossrail rolling stock and depot contract. Combined with IEP and Thameslink, more than 3,100 new carriages will be in service by the end of 2019. In addition, through the franchising programme we expect the market to deliver additional rolling stock solutions, building on the possibilities created by the rail investment strategy’s electrification projects and capacity increases.
Craig Whittaker
The Government need to be applauded for investing £8 million in the reopening of the Todmorden curve railway line between Todmorden and Burnley, which is due for completion in May. Will the Secretary of State update us on whether any progress has been made with Northern Rail on the procurement of a further diesel train so that the service can start before December?
Mr McLoughlin
I well understand the points my hon. Friend makes. I know that Northern Rail has been working on how best to deliver those services, including the provision for rolling stock. A small number of diesel trains from within the current northern fleet may become available for use on this service from December 2014 when the electric trains are due to start operating on some services between Liverpool and Manchester, but I know and understand my hon. Friend’s desire to get a service up and running sooner. I will personally look into what can be made available.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
New rolling stock will be required on the very welcome new line planned from the Great Western main line into Heathrow, which was announced today. Will the Minister take action to speed up the delivery of that line? If we wait until 2021 to deliver that line, some of the businesses in the Thames valley which have been hanging on for western access to Heathrow might leave the country. Can he do more to speed it up?
Mr McLoughlin
We are investing record amounts in the rail industry. I will certainly look into the point the hon. Lady makes, but it is one of many demands as far as rail services are concerned.
Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)
18. Will the Secretary of State join me again in welcoming the fantastic order won by Bombardier, but could we also encourage Bombardier to use its local supply chain industry, because we have a centre of excellence in Derby for engineering and knock-on industries and it would be very good if it could spread the load and invest in the local area?
Mr McLoughlin
I very much agree with my hon. Friend and I know she will be delighted at today’s announcement. It is worth pointing out that in Derby we have got not only Bombardier but Rolls-Royce and Toyota and just over in Staffordshire—but I almost regard it as Derbyshire—JCB, all providing an engineering centre of excellence. It is true that some 71% of this new contract will be based on small and medium-sized industries in this country. I forgot to say that JCB is also in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler).
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
10. What assessment he has made of the effects of rising bus and train fares on the cost of living and the cost of travelling to work.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill)
The fares that passengers pay are crucial to funding bus and rail operations. In rail, they contribute towards the major investment programme we are undertaking. I recognise concerns passengers have about impacts of fares on household budgets, which is why for the first time in a decade average regulated rail fares have been capped at inflation. Outside London, bus services are deregulated and fares are mainly a matter for the commercial judgment of bus operators.
Kerry McCarthy
Research by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation shows that single people under the age of 35 are being hit particularly hard by the cost of living crisis and are at the greatest risk of having extremely low incomes. Does the Department recognise that high fares make it even more difficult for them to find work and stay in work, particularly if it is only part-time work, which is increasingly what is on offer to them these days?
Mr Goodwill
I am surprised the hon. Lady did not welcome the fact that we have capped rail fares at inflation for the first time in a decade, and I also note she was not whingeing on in the same way when, for example, council tax doubled under the last Labour Government, and every year the fuel duty escalator loaded expense on people who buy petrol, and we had above-inflation fare rises every time.
Mrs Linda Riordan (Halifax) (Lab/Co-op)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
I am sure the whole House will want to join me in expressing sympathy for those who have been affected by the extreme weather conditions. An urgent priority is the railway at Dawlish. Colleagues will have seen the images of the devastating impact the weather has had on the railway there. I met members of all parties of Devon and Cornwall yesterday evening alongside Network Rail. The immediate priority is to assess the damage and develop a plan for getting the line back into service as soon as possible, but I am acutely conscious of the need to develop a long-term solution for the resilience of the railway network in the south-west and I have asked for a report to me on the options for addressing this problem.
Mrs Riordan
The Calder valley line was recently excluded from the list of northern lines to be electrified. Will the Secretary of State look again at this and back my and the Halifax Courier’s campaign to get this line electrified as soon as possible?
Mr McLoughlin
I met an all-party group on rail electrification a few weeks ago and discussed the matters that the hon. Lady has just relayed. I fully accept that there is a lot of pressure on us to extend electrification. I am proud that we have set a target for Network Rail of 850 miles in the next control period. I am certain that other cases will be made. Let me stress to her that our target of 850 miles is 841 miles more than the previous Government achieved in 13 years.
Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con)
T2. Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating c2c on transforming what used to be known as the misery line, from Fenchurch Street to Southend, to the cheerful line, thus meaning that it should have its franchise renewed? By contrast, Greater Anglia railways must have the most clapped-out, dirtiest rolling stock in the world.
Mr McLoughlin
Whenever I hear my hon. Friend’s voice behind me in the House, it always cheers me up. The transformation of the line into Fenchurch Street is largely the result of investment by Network Rail and the Department for Transport in both infrastructure and the rolling stock. The bids for Essex Thameside are currently being evaluated, and the Department will seek to announce a preferred bidder shortly.
Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)
Freak weather is rapidly becoming the new norm in our country, and I understand the difficulties that the Secretary of State has in giving a time scale for the Dawlish repairs, given that further bad weather is forecast for Saturday. None the less, every week the line is closed is costing the regional economy tens of millions of pounds. Will he keep the House updated and look urgently and strategically across the whole rail network, including at Wales, the north-east and Scotland, to see how we can make it more resilient against future storms?
Mr McLoughlin
In answer to the hon. Lady’s question, I simply say yes. That must be the first time that anyone has been able to do that.
Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)
T3. There is no doubt in my mind that the west country is the most important part of the country. At the moment, not only do we have problems with the main rail down through Dawlish and Exeter, but we need to upgrade the Exeter to Waterloo line. We also need that second arterial road route, the A30-A303, to ensure that we get access to the west country
Mr Goodwill
I can tell my hon. Friend that the A30-A303 corridor is one of the six strategic routes into which we are trying to get some investment. It is a very important route, and, as we have seen from the vulnerability of the rail line, it is one on which we need to concentrate. I am aware that there are some environmental issues in the Stonehenge area and the Blackdown hills, so we need to be sensitive in the way that we deliver the improvements.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
T4. I know that the Secretary of State gets on well with the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, who is encouraging muscular localism and local referendums. Will he do the same in those communities, the big cities, where no one has been consulted about the value for money and the impact of High Speed 2?
Mr McLoughlin
There have been many opportunities to raise the issue of HS2. I am pleased that the paving Bill received the overwhelming support of the House of Commons, and I regard that as an important referendum in itself.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
T5. While joining in the welcome for the Crossrail award to Bombardier this morning, may I invite the Secretary of State to my constituency to see the real harm caused by the level of noise from the A38 to people living far too close to that road?
Mr McLoughlin
As I drive through my hon. Friend’s constituency on a regular basis, I am more than delighted to come and talk to him and his constituents about some of the problems that noise creates for them as a result of the traffic on the A38.
Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)
T7. Will the Secretary of State join me in welcoming the granting of planning permission for the expansion of Luton airport? It will help the Government with their capacity problem in the south-east and do so without the extension of any existing runway or the building of a new one.
Mr Goodwill
Regional airports, or local international airports as I like to call them, have an important part to play in delivering the air connectivity that we need, so I am pleased to hear that news.
Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con)
T6. The future of electrification in the north will be looked at by a joint committee of experts to recommend future routes for electrification in the north of England. Will the Secretary of State advise us when that joint committee will be set up so that those of us who are rooting for the Caldervale line to be electrified can participate?
Mr Goodwill
The Government are transforming rail travel for passengers across the north and are investing heavily in the electrification of the network and in the £500 million northern hub capacity scheme. In parallel with that new commitment, we announced the establishment of a joint taskforce to explore where to go next with electrification in the north. The taskforce has been asked to ensure that eight named routes are considered, but it is free to consider the case for any route in the north, including the Caldervale line.
Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab)
Although, obviously, I am disappointed that Hitachi was not successful in winning the Crossrail bid, I am pleased for the people of Derby and think that it is good news for British jobs. I am sure that the House is aware that although all the bidders are foreign-owned, two are based in the UK: Hitachi in Newton Aycliffe in my constituency and Bombardier in Derby. Will the Secretary of State tell the House what processes are in place to ensure that the winning bidder will fulfil its contractual obligations?
Mr McLoughlin
As the hon. Gentleman will know, because he was very much involved when Hitachi won the intercity express programme order, there is a standstill period of an extra 10 days. What I announced along with the Mayor of London this morning was the preferred bidder. That process has to be gone through and it is right that it should be gone through. It all goes to show that Hitachi is investing in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. I was up there a few weeks ago, and Hitachi has a huge order and is determined to win more, not only in the United Kingdom but across Europe.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
The only direct trains from Shipley to King's Cross are at 6.36 and 7.17 in the morning and the only direct train back is at 6.33 in the evening—all at peak times. When the east coast line is refranchised, may we have more direct trains to Shipley and at off-peak times so that my constituents can benefit from lower fares?
Mr McLoughlin
As my hon. Friend knows, the invitations to tender for services on the east coast line are being dealt with by the Department. I am sure that the people who monitor these sessions will take on board his recommendation.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
A while ago, a lorry caught fire on a motorway in my constituency. It was carrying ammunition, including Sidewinder missiles. Will the Minister consider approaching those who transport very dangerous materials, including chemicals, to suggest transferring those journeys from motorways to rail, where the chances of a catastrophe are greatly reduced?
Mr Goodwill
The Department takes the transportation of dangerous goods very seriously. As a former road tanker driver, I understand many of the hazards. As we build the high-speed rail network and electrify more services, there will be more capacity on the existing classic line for freight services such as those to which the hon. Gentleman refers.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
Guide Dogs, Whizz-Kidz and Living Streets, among others, have supported a campaign I have been running with Claire Connon, a prospective 2016 Paralympian, to fix our pavements. What is the Secretary of State doing to ensure that footways can be used by people in wheelchairs, people with mobility issues, people who are partially sighted, people with pushchairs and everyone else who wants to make use of them?
Mr Goodwill
It is vital that we roll out as much accessibility in the countryside as possible. I know that organisations such as the Country Land and Business Association benevolent trust have given grant aid for such schemes. I think we should roll out as far as possible any schemes to allow more people access to footways and to ensure that disabled people have the same rights as everybody else to enjoy the countryside.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
Of all the major northern towns, Hull is the only one with no proposal to electrify its main railway line. That means that First Hull Trains’ proposal to electrify the line from Selby to Hull is an essential upgrade, especially bearing in mind 2017. Will the Minister commit to working with Network Rail and First Hull Trains to ensure that we have that for 2017?
Mr Goodwill
We are certainly very interested in the suggestions made by First Hull Trains. I occasionally use that line myself and we will certainly consider that bid for electrification alongside others.
Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
Although I greatly welcome today’s commitment to get our line open as soon as possible, does the Secretary of State agree that it is vital that we send out the message that Cornwall is still open for business? Will he therefore lay out plans for alternative bus services to replace the train services?
Mr McLoughlin
Yes, we will be considering a number of those issues and I hope shortly to be able to inform my hon. Friend and others from that area of the measures that we want to put in place. She is absolutely right that Devon and Cornwall are fantastic places to go. There have been some rough connection problems, and we have to sort them out, but Devon and Cornwall will still be a great destination for both Easter and half term.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
1. What steps he is taking to improve the effectiveness and efficiency of the services available to hon. Members.
John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
The Commission has a policy of continuous improvement, which helps to drive both efficiency and effectiveness. The fundamental principle adopted by the Commission has been that any cost reductions should not adversely affect the ability of the House and its Members to carry out their parliamentary functions. The House is on track to reduce its budget by 17% in real terms between 2010-11 and 2014-15, and this discipline has been a spur to innovation and moving to new and better ways of doing things. In many ways, the House is now more rather than less effective.
Mr Sheerman
May I profoundly disagree with the 17% cut? We are sent here to serve our constituents. This cut in budgets means that we are less and less able to do our job properly at every level. We know that, and the staff, whose morale is at rock bottom, know it too. It is about time the House of Commons Commission got the message that something is rotten in the state and that we have to do something about it soon.
John Thurso
May I say in all humility to the hon. Gentleman that the facts simply do not bear out his assertions? For example, sickness absence, which in most businesses is an extremely good measure of the morale of the work force, is at its lowest since we began recording in 2008-09. May I also say that the Finance and Services Committee at its meeting this week received the quarterly out-turn for the third quarter, and a number of the major Departments that operate Member services have budget left to spend and are likely not to use their budgets in-year? That is a result of effective delivery of services and there is no absence of money for parliamentary scrutiny.
Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend accept that the decision of the House to change its sitting hours has had a negative impact on catering, access to the Palace for constituency parties, and the ready availability of meeting rooms for the many groups that seek them?
John Thurso
My right hon. Friend makes an extremely valid point. He, as Chair of the Administration Committee, has done a great deal of work with his Committee on this matter to ensure that the services provided are of the highest quality and, wherever possible, open to our constituents as well as to Members.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
2. What steps the Commission is taking to reduce heating bills on the parliamentary estate.
John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
This is a timely question, as a campaign has recently been launched to encourage all users of the estate, including hon. Members, to reduce energy use. All new estate projects are assessed for opportunities to improve energy efficiency in the Palace. Improvements are being made to temperature control and the efficiency of heating systems. There has been a successful pilot of roof insulation and a programme to refurbish windows is under way. Thermostatic radiator valves and occupancy sensors that shut down after a set period have been fitted in a number of areas across the estate.
Mr Hollobone
We must all put up our hands and admit to our individual responsibility for contributing to the hot air generated in this place, but will the House of Commons Commission undertake a study of the financial savings for each degree that the thermostat was turned down?
John Thurso
My hon. Friend makes a very sensible suggestion, which I will certainly take away and find out the answer to, and do my utmost to implement.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
Is it especially expensive to heat the Terrace marquee? I recently received a letter from a constituent about an event that I had agreed to sponsor for the Westminster Education Forum, which showed that it was charging people £45 plus VAT for the privilege of attending an event at this House of Commons. Is that acceptable, and is that a direct consequence of the current efforts to turn this place into a convention centre?
John Thurso
The hon. Gentleman asks about the heating in the Terrace marquee. I do not have an answer to hand; if I may, I will write to him with the correct answer.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
4. What recent assessment he has made of Departments' performance in answering written parliamentary questions.
The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom Brake)
My office collates departmental performance information for ordinary and named day parliamentary questions for each Session, which are submitted to the Procedure Committee. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House of Commons provided data relating to the last Session to that Committee in July 2013. Those data are available on the parliamentary website.
Kerry McCarthy
I have received particularly poor responses to recent written questions to the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister on whether they would raise human rights issues during business trips abroad. For example, the Prime Minister took more than two weeks to reply to named day questions, with no holding answer. Does the Deputy Leader of the House think that it is wrong of the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister, in particular, to show such contempt for Members who are simply seeking to find out what they do when they go abroad at public expense?
Tom Brake
I certainly agree that it is possible to achieve a very high quality of response. For instance, the Department of Health achieves a 99% response rate. If the hon. Lady would like to send me the details of the questions she refers to, I would be happy to look into the matter.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
As a member of the Procedure Committee, perhaps I can help the Deputy Leader of the House. Will he use this opportunity to remind right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House that if they are unhappy with a reply to a written question, because of a delay or the content, they can submit it to the Committee and we will look into and chase up those questions?
Tom Brake
Indeed; I am very happy to encourage Members to do that. The Procedure Committee looks at this matter in detail. As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, if there are specific concerns about how Departments handle their replies, they are required to explain to the Procedure Committee why they have been unable to respond promptly.
Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Deputy Leader of the House look particularly at the performance of the Department for Communities and Local Government, and will he deprecate the consistent attempt to reveal as little information as possible in answers to parliamentary questions? I will gladly furnish him with some recent questions that I have had “answered” in a fashion.
Tom Brake
I am happy to convey the hon. Gentleman’s concerns to the Department. He might want to know that one of our responsibilities in the Leader of the House’s office is to ensure that best practice in responding to questions is circulated. For instance, we have encouraged Departments not to respond to questions by providing links to websites. We are requiring them to provide the hard figures to make it easier for Members to assess the response.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Does the Deputy Leader of the House agree that we would have fewer parliamentary questions if we had more time to debate important issues, such as the Immigration Bill? One great thing that the coalition Government promised was a business of the House committee, so when will we get it?
Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
If it is to do its job of scrutinising the Executive efficiently, Parliament must be able to rely on timely answers from Government Departments. After the Procedure Committee highlighted last year’s atrocious performance, the Leader of the House committed the Government to establishing a new electronic system for Departments across Whitehall to improve responses. Can the Deputy Leader of the House tell us whether that is now in place and whether we can expect to see an improvement in response times when the Procedure Committee publishes an update next week? Will he set out what he will do if there are Departments that have failed to improve their performance and if some have deteriorated?
Tom Brake
I thank the hon. Lady for that question. She might not be aware that over the past Session there has been an improvement: more Departments have been improving their responses than have been deteriorating. I certainly agree that the electronic system will ensure that Members get a better response and that there will be much less dependence on paperwork circulating throughout the system. I have just seen the progress that has been made in that system and am confident that when it is implemented Members will be very pleased with it and that it will save substantial sums of money.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
5. What consideration is being given to a temporary relocation of Parliament to enable refurbishment of the Palace of Westminster.
John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
I announced in a written statement on 17 December 2013 that the contract had been awarded for an independent appraisal of the options for restoring and renewing the palace, in co-operation with the House of Lords. A temporary relocation of Parliament is one of the options being analysed. Other options include a phased programme of less disruptive interventions or a partial relocation. No decisions on the matter are expected in this Parliament, and certainly not before the report is received.
Meg Hillier
I fear that once again we are kicking an issue into the long grass. Sadly, we have lost the opportunity to relocate to east London now that the Olympic park is soon to reopen. Would not a relocation to somewhere such as, say, Birmingham, in the centre of the country—[Interruption.] It could be Birmingham or any other city that Members may wish to suggest. Would that not only speed up the improvement of this place but modernise ways of working and change the culture of this place once and for all?
John Thurso
Confident in the Union of the United Kingdom, I would of course offer Inverness as a place we might all like to go to, which would save the taxpayer a considerable amount in travel expenses. The really important thing is to get this right. The independent options appraisal will ensure that we have a true understanding of the scale of the problem and the different costs of different solutions. I suggest to all Members that we wait to see what the outcome of that is and then make a decision based on fact and best value for the taxpayer.
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
6. What recent discussions he has had with the voluntary sector on the Transparency of Lobbying, Non-party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Act 2014.
The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom Brake)
The Government met nearly 50 organisations to discuss the provisions of the Act before it received Royal Assent. Those discussions led to a number of changes being made to the then Bill to reduce the burden on smaller third parties who campaign at elections, to ease the transition to the new regime, and to clarify the rules.
Mr Bain
Notwithstanding the unseemly haste to rush this legislation to Royal Assent last week, many voluntary sector organisations have deep misgivings about the effect it will have on the way that they operate. Will the Minister show equal haste in committing to post-legislative scrutiny of the legislation so that the House can assess the damaging impact that it will have on our charities?
Tom Brake
We have surely now reached the time when the hon. Gentleman and other Labour Members should accept that the Act does not do what he has claimed. He may not be aware that the National Council for Voluntary Organisations recently said:
“We are grateful that the government has listened to the concerns charities have raised in recent months…The”
Act
“provides a much more sensible balance…between creating accountability and transparency in elections while still allowing for charities and others to speak up on issues of concern.”
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
7. What plans he has to increase the use of pre-legislative scrutiny.
The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley)
The Government are committed, wherever possible, to publishing legislation in draft for pre-legislative scrutiny. We published 17 draft Bills or sets of draft measures in the previous Session, which is more than the previous Government did in any Session.
Dr Huppert
I thank the Leader of the House. It is clear that there have been some benefits. The recent Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill ended up with a lot of provisions that were recommended on pre-legislative scrutiny, although the process would have been faster if they had been included straight away. Does he agree that the principle should be that, unless there are exceptional reasons, all Bills should go through some sort of pre-legislative scrutiny?
Mr Lansley
We endeavour to publish legislation in draft, but it is not always possible. My hon. Friend and the House will understand that, for example, at the start of a Parliament, or sometimes for reasons of policy, measures have to be brought in at a pace that does not permit the kind of pre-legislative scrutiny that we would generally seek. Let me point out that only this week we debated the Deregulation Bill on Second Reading, and that was scrutinised in draft form; and in the previous week, the Consumer Rights Bill came to the House, and that had had substantial pre-legislative scrutiny. I commend to the House how we are continuing to engage in that.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
8. What assessment he has made of the amount of food waste from catering outlets on the Parliamentary Estate.
John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Food waste from prepared dishes in the House of Commons catering outlets, as measured as a percentage against sales, is 3%. This is well below the national average for the catering industry, which is 5%. The Sustainable Restaurant Association has rated the House of Commons as a good-practice organisation in respect of food waste. We take a variety of measures to monitor and reduce the amount of food waste from catering outlets. There are plans to extend composting of food waste, which is already undertaken in the Palace in relation to other outlets.
Duncan Hames
I thank my hon. Friend for that reply and for the progress that is being made. Does he agree that, as staff in the catering service see this challenge day in, day out, it would be wise for the Commission to invite them to make their own suggestions on reducing food waste?
John Thurso
It has been my experience that staff suggestions are always worth looking at, but the real challenge is the 21% waste from domestic fridges—that is the real scandal.
Mr Speaker
That was a splendidly pithy reply, which allows us briefly to get on to the important matter of vermin infestation.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
9. What recent representations he has received on vermin infestation on the parliamentary estate.
John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Recent representations have been received from hon. Members about mice in Norman Shaw South. Measures taken include sealing gaps and fitting bristle strips to office doors. Leaflets have been distributed to alert occupants to the measures being taken and provide practical advice to alleviate the problem. I encourage hon. Members to follow that advice, which includes not leaving sandwiches on their desks.
Diana Johnson
According to recent media reports, mutant super rats are taking over the Commons and it is costing £6,000 per month for vermin control measures on the parliamentary estate. Surely the traditional use of cats would be more effective and cheaper.
John Thurso
My sympathies are entirely with the hon. Lady. I have a perfectly vicious cat in Thurso which is keeping the rodent population down. There are serious problems in relation to people who are allergic to cats and the diseases they carry. After extensive research, it is believed that there is no rat problem inside the House of Commons—at least, not of the four-legged variety.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
As I am sure you are aware, Mr Speaker, we have been offered a rescue cat or two from Battersea Dogs and Cats Home. I fear I might be allergic to mice and rats—of the two and four-legged variety—so will my hon. Friend consider that very generous offer?
John Thurso
I am certain the Commission would want to consider such a generous offer.
Business of the House
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
Will the Leader of the House give us the business for next week?
The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley)
The business for next week is as follows:
Monday 10 February—Consideration of Lords amendments to the Children and Families Bill, followed by a debate on a reasoned opinion relating to the presumption of innocence and EU law.
Tuesday 11 February—Opposition day [20th allotted day]. There will be a full day’s debate entitled “Fairness and Inequality” on a motion in the name of Plaid Cymru and the Scottish Nationalist Party.
Wednesday 12 February—Motions relating to the police grant and local government finance reports.
Thursday 13 February—A debate on a motion relating to the Normington report on reform of the Police Federation, followed by a general debate on the all-party parliamentary group on cancer report on cancer priorities in the NHS.
The subjects for both debates were determined by the Backbench Business Committee.
Friday 14 February—The House will not be sitting.
The provisional business for the week commencing 24 February will include:
Monday 24 February—Second Reading of the Criminal Justice and Courts Bill.
I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 24 February will be:
Monday 24 February—General debate on an e-petition relating to holiday companies charging extra in school holidays.
Ms Eagle
I thank the Leader of the House for his business statement, but it was yet again so devoid of actual Government business that he may as well have let me or the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee do it. In the past four weeks, more than 60% of our time has been taken up by non-Government business, because this is a zombie coalition staggering around with no discernible purpose. Is that all we can expect for the next 15 months?
This Government have not just given up on legislating; they have given up on listening to Parliament, too. My calculations show that, on top of the three votes this Government have lost on their own business, they have ignored dozens of votes on Back-Bench business because they did not like the outcome. Last month, the House voted by 125 to two to set up a commission to study the effects of social security cuts on poverty; nothing has been done since. In 2012, we voted to stop the badger cull; the plans to roll out the cull are still in place. In 2013, the House voted to make sex and relationship education in our schools compulsory; that has not been done. Will the Leader of the House tell us what he thinks the purpose of Parliament is, if the Government just pick and choose which votes they are going to act on?
The Prime Minister confirmed yesterday that he plans to stage a debate and vote on repealing the ban on fox hunting, but it is not in the current business. Will the Leader of the House tell me how that debate will be structured, when it will actually happen and whether he will now rule out the option of using a statutory instrument to make the ban unenforceable, an idea which is being actively canvassed by the pro-fox-hunting lobby?
This week, the Education Secretary sacked the chair of Ofsted, despite praising her “great knowledge and insight”. I am sure it is no coincidence that the man tipped to replace her has donated more than £100,000 to the Conservative party. A pattern seems to be emerging: the new chair of Natural England—a Tory donor; the new chair of the Care Quality Commission—a former Tory chief executive; the new chair of Monitor—a Tory ex-Minister; and, of course, the new head of the Prime Minister’s appointments board is also a former Tory staff member. Will the Leader of the House arrange for a statement from the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General about the strange correlation revealed between favours to the Tory party and quango jobs? While he is at it, will he now commit to publishing the full list of Tory donors who have been wined and dined anonymously at Chequers, the Prime Minister’s official residence?
When the Education Secretary is not at loggerheads with his own Minister for Schools, or doing the lines you gave him yesterday, Mr Speaker, he is apparently fighting with “The Blob”. I must admit that it took me a while to work out that he was not setting up a jogging club for Cabinet Ministers so that they could all join the Prime Minister in trotting around St James’s park. I wonder whether the Education Secretary has taken to naming other Cabinet Ministers after cult films. After the Chief Secretary to the Treasury commented that he would let the Tories lower the top rate of tax to 40p over his dead body, his cult film would be “Night of the Living Dead”. The Home Secretary’s would naturally be “Aliens”, and the Work and Pensions Secretary’s would be “Nosferatu the Vampire”. I have found a perfect one for the Liberal Democrats—Ray Steckler’s 1964 monster classic, “The Incredibly Strange Creatures Who Stopped Living and Became Mixed-Up Zombies”.
I understand that the Deputy Prime Minister is looking for a new communications director, after the current post holder decided to leave after three months. She may have had a wealth of experience in dealing with high-profile clients across the globe, but everybody eventually realises that there are just certain things they cannot polish. I understand that the Liberal Democrat HR team has had to redraft the job description for the re-appointment. It now reads: “Must have extensive experience in crisis management.”
This week has shown that the Tory party has let the modernising mask slip. It capitulated in the face of its Back Benchers on the Immigration Bill. There was not a single woman on the Front Bench during Prime Minister’s questions. [Interruption.] It has clearly got a rota in use today, and we will see how long that lasts. Even the Prime Minister’s personal endorsements could not save two pro-European MPs from being deselected by their local Conservative associations. The Tory Tea party is baying for blood, and the Prime Minister is too weak to face it down. As Labour starts the journey to an historic reform that will open up our structures, the contrast could not be clearer between a Labour leader with the confidence to deliver real change in his party and a Prime Minister who is on the run from his own Back Benchers.
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House, but her principal comment was that no Government business is being brought forward. I have looked again at the business that I have just announced, and three of the five days in the Chamber involve Government business: consideration of Lords amendments to the Children and Families Bill, the Second Reading of the Criminal Justice and Courts Bill—a further Bill introduced just yesterday—and debates on the police grant and local government finance reports. I cannot see what she is complaining about.
Frankly, to reiterate what the shadow Leader of the House and other hon. Members are perhaps ignoring, the time allocation for debates to the Opposition and the Backbench Business Committee is a proper use of the time of this House; it is not simply that this House debates only Government legislation and that that is all that matters, which would be absurd. If we listened to the shadow Leader of the House, all those days would be taken away and allocated to Government business. That is not what this House has decided to do. When my right hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary was Leader of the House earlier in this Parliament, he brought in a measure, with the agreement of the House, to allocate substantial time to the Backbench Business Committee, and rightly so.
I have not announced a debate or a vote on fox hunting. What the Prime Minister said yesterday was absolutely right, but we have not been able to schedule such a debate at this stage.
The hon. Lady asked about the position of Baroness Morgan as the chair of Ofsted, which is not really a business matter as such. I find what she said slightly astonishing. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education appointed Baroness Morgan as the chair of Ofsted. Her term of office is expiring. I do not understand what the question is about. It is perfectly within the rights of Ministers, when a vacancy emerges, to refresh or change the leadership of public bodies.
I point the hon. Lady to the figures on the political activity that has been signalled by those who are appointed to public appointments. In 2012-13, 3.3% of those people declared Conservative political activity, 3% declared Labour activity, 1% declared Liberal Democrat activity and 1.7% declared other political activity. [Interruption.] Yes, properly declared. I refer the hon. Lady to the figures for the last Parliament. Under the last Government, the figures repeatedly show that there were four times as many declarations of Labour political activity as Conservative political activity. The bias took place under the last Government, not under this Government.
The hon. Lady told us something about films. I am not sure what that was all about. To relate it to the business, I am sure that she will have noted that whatever films she wants people to see, whether as analogies for Cabinet Ministers or anybody else, they will have enhanced opportunities under the Deregulation Bill to see them in local venues and film clubs. That is a jolly good thing.
I note that the shadow Leader of the House did not request a debate on the maintenance of essential services in the face of unjustified and unnecessary strike action by trade union leaders. We did not hear about that from the hon. Lady, nor did we hear about it from the Leader of the Opposition when he came to the Dispatch Box yesterday, yet millions of people in London are being unnecessarily inconvenienced and are having great difficulty in getting about and doing their normal business. There is no need for such a strike. The Lady should have come to the Dispatch Box and agreed that there was no need for such a strike.
Equally, the shadow Leader of the House did not request a further debate on the relationship between trade unions’ political funds and political parties. Why is that? It is because that matter has been put off until 2020. So much for the efforts of the Leader of Opposition in that regard.
The shadow Leader of the House did not mention the desirability of a debate on recent economic measures, either. I think that we should take every possible opportunity to debate the Government’s long-term economic plan. Almost daily, there is further evidence of the success of that plan, whether it is exports going up, news on manufacturing confidence or the increased number of jobs. The news today about Bombardier is clearly very welcome. We are cutting the deficit, cutting income tax and freezing fuel duty. We are seeing more jobs in the economy. We are capping welfare, reducing immigration and promoting better schools and skills for the future. All those things will give the people of this country the peace of mind and security that they need for the future.
Finally, I am delighted that the shadow Leader of the House raised the issue of women in politics and, in particular, in this House. Speaking not as Leader of the House for a moment, but as a Conservative, I am proud that it is my party that had the first sitting woman Member of Parliament; that it is my party that gave votes to all women 85 years ago; that Emmeline Pankhurst was a Conservative activist; and that it was the Conservative party that gave this country its first woman Prime Minister.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
As Sri Lanka comes before the United Nations in connection with alleged human rights abuses at the end of the civil war, does the Leader of the House share my concern about the increasing persecution of the Christian Church in Sri Lanka, which has a long, proud history, and particularly the persecution of the nonconformist Church there?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend will recall the steps that the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary took during the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting to raise issues relating to human rights in Sri Lanka with the Government there. That gave unprecedented exposure to those issues, which was important. I know that many Members of the House are concerned about the position of Christians in many countries across the world, and I will again raise that issue with my hon. Friends in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, as I know how concerned they are, and ask them to respond to my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard).
Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)
When will the House have the opportunity to debate and vote on changes to e-petitions, and will that debate also include a proposal for establishing a new petitions committee?
Mr Lansley
I cannot promise a debate at the moment, although I hope one may come forward soon. As I have already made clear to the House, the e-petition system run by the Government has been a great success and is linked to the Backbench Business Committee and the timetabling of debates. In the business I just announced we saw how an e-petition rapidly hit the 100,000 mark on the subject of extra charging for holidays during the school holidays, and that will be debated in Westminster Hall. There is, however, much wider scope and an opportunity for the House to consider and respond to petitions and allocate time for debate if the current e-petition system can be owned by both the Government and Parliament working together. I hope we can secure consensus on that soon, and give the House an opportunity to give its stamp of approval to that.
Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Unite’s members at the Faslane naval base in my constituency have voted for strike action over the Babcock offer of a 1% pay increase. According to Unite, Babcock claims that the Ministry of Defence says that it must stick to public sector pay restrictions, but that does not seem to apply at other dockyards. May we have a statement on that from the Defence Secretary?
Mr Lansley
I will, of course, ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to respond to my hon. Friend on that issue. He will know that the MOD is in negotiations with Babcock over the maritime support delivery framework contract, but that does not imply direct involvement in the pay offer, and its relationship with its staff is a matter for Babcock. I hope my hon. Friend agrees that a threat of industrial action is never an appropriate response to such matters, and everybody should be committed to the safe, secure and effective running of Her Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde.
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
Has the right hon. Gentleman seen early-day motion 1041, which stands in my name and those of other hon. Members, and concerns the persecution by the branch of Asda in Longsight in my constituency?
[That this House expresses its disgust with and condemnation of the employment practices of Asda, in particular with regard to its treatment of a staff member at its branch in Longsight, Manchester; notes that this staff member was suspended for nearly two years on bogus allegations and has now, after this protracted and biased process, been unfairly dismissed; suspects that racism is involved in the persecution of this constituent of the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton; asserts that Asda has breached its own policies and procedures, confidentiality and data protection; further asserts that Asda has made false statements, has been involved in collusion over statements, has breached the ACAS code of practice, has made its decision with no valid evidence in support and has taken hearsay as being fact; and condemns these nasty bullies who believe they can get away with anything simply because they are immensely wealthy.]
A constituent of mine who was employed by Asda was suspended on bogus charges. After nearly two years he has now been dismissed, with Asda breaking every single employment rule it would be possible to break, never mind the fact that my constituent is a member of an ethnic minority. May I add to you, Mr Speaker, that when I raised this matter with Asda, it wrote to me saying that it would report me to you for raising it? I therefore report myself to you for standing up for a constituent against these wealthy and powerful bullies.
Mr Speaker
The politest thing I can say is that Asda is not thereby demonstrating a very firm grasp of the parliamentary procedures that we operate in this place.
Mr Lansley
I have seen the right hon. Gentleman’s early-day motion. I know he would not expect me to comment on the circumstances of his constituent in this case, but it is perfectly proper for him to raise the issue. Even if these are not matters for which we in Government or Parliament are directly responsible, it is our responsibility, and his, to represent our constituents. I hope that those concerned will respond, including responding positively to him.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
Everyone has been deeply moved by the sight of what is happening in Somerset and the south-west of England, with people being displaced from their homes, possibly for some considerable time. Also, we must note the generosity of both the Prince of Wales and the Duke of Westminster. Will my right hon. Friend use his good offices and those of the Second Church Commissioner to work with the Church of England and local churches to consider whether it would be appropriate to set up a relief fund so that members of the public and Members of this House who wish to contribute may do so? The model I would suggest is that used by the Archbishop of York when we had a similar flood event, though not quite on the same scale, in Yorkshire and the Humber region in the 2000s.
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend rightly refers to the distress that communities are experiencing. We have to understand that it is not only potentially very serious for them, but it can be of long standing. It is not just about the response to these flooding events: recovery can take a great deal of time and require a lot of support. Clearly, we in Government will do everything we possibly can, but there is, as she rightly says, evidence of how people in this country want to help those in distress. Back in 2007 the Archbishop of York and the Bishop of Lichfield put together through the Church Urban Fund a significant relief effort for those who had been affected. I am sure we could use the good offices of our right hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) with others to see whether the Bishops of, for example, Bath and Wells, Exeter and Truro might think of doing something of a similar character.
I am sorry to prolong the response, Mr Speaker, but may I reiterate what I said last week? We in this House value very much what my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) does as Chair of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee and on behalf of her constituents. Speaking entirely personally, may I say in that regard that I very much regret the decision that was taken by Thirsk and Malton constituency association last week?
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
May we have a debate in Government time in the run-up to the Budget on air passenger duty and the effects this is having on regional airports and, more important, on the economies of the regions of the UK?
Mr Lansley
The right hon. Gentleman will know that in the run-up to the Budget these are properly matters for the Chancellor of the Exchequer who, I know, in the run-up to the Budget is always willing to listen to hon. Members’ representations on the Budget. This is a debate that we have had in the House, but it may well be something that we debate again.
Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)
May we have a debate on the quality and availability of information to Members of this House before they are asked to make serious decisions? I refer to two things, particularly the concealment of the Major Projects Authority reports on HS2, and the fact that the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills have now appointed Golder Associates, who will produce a report for this House immediately after the close of the consultation on the environmental statement, which is 50,000 pages long. I gather that to date, with still almost a month to run, there are 10,000 responses that have to be analysed. The assessors will have to boil those down and present them to the House, which will give Members only 14 days, possibly, to look at them before the Second Reading of the HS2 hybrid Bill in this place. Will the Leader of the House look at how we can possibly ask Members to make important decisions and vote on Second Readings that are irrevocable when they do not have all the information on the risks involved and the whole project?
Mr Lansley
My right hon. Friend will know that the Standing Orders Committee in this House and in the House of Lords looked at the timing on consultation. The result of that was that the time for receipt of responses to the consultation was moved to, from memory, 27 February in recognition of the fact that people should have time to look at what is clearly a great volume of information. I remind my right hon. Friend that it is the responsibility of this House to ensure that the proper assessment is made of those responses to the consultation before our Second Reading. We have not announced the timetable for Second Reading. It is in any case, as the House will understand, a decision in principle on Second Reading, and through the hybrid Bill procedure there will be detailed examination of the Bill that follows.
Mr Speaker
Order. May I remind the House that there is a very important statement on flooding to follow and thereafter two debates under the auspices of the Backbench Business Committee, the first of which is exceptionally heavily subscribed? There is, therefore, a premium upon brevity, which I am sure will now be exemplified by Mr Sheridan.
Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)
May I bring to the attention of the Leader of the House early-day motion 1046?
[That this House expresses serious concern at the anti-trade union behaviour of INEOS at its petrochemical plant in Grangemouth where it has dismissed Mark Lyon, the UK Vice-President of Unite The Union for carrying out his responsibilities as the elected convener of Unite The Union at the Grangemouth complex; notes that INEOS refuses to accept the Unite shops stewards elected by the workforce to represent them and is acting against the International Labour Organization (ILO) Declaration on Fundamental Principles and Rights at Work 1998, particularly ILO Convention 87 on Freedom of Association and Protection of the Right to Organise 1948, and ILO Convention 98 on The Right to Organise and Collective Bargaining, 1949; further notes that INEOS is acting in contravention of the rights set out by the UK Government on the gov.uk website sections on Trade union membership: your employment rights and the role of your trade union rep; is concerned that INEOS is in line to receive £9 million in grants from the Scottish Government and has applied for loan guarantee fund support from the UK Government of £150 million; calls on the Government to make it clear to INEOS that actions in breach of ILO conventions and in contradiction of UK law on the rights of employees to be represented by a trade union and to take part in trade union activities is not acceptable in the UK in the 21st century; and further calls for the reinstatement of Mark Lyon and a negotiated settlement of points of difference between INEOS and trades unionists in its employment.]
Despite the best efforts of the UK Government, the Scottish Government, the local community and the work force of INEOS at Grangemouth, senior management at the plant are behaving like industrial thugs, sacking yet again the Unite convener Mark Lyon on trumped-up charges. As we have given this company £150 million of taxpayers’ money, will the Leader of the House arrange for the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills to come to this House to explain why this kind of behaviour from senior management is being tolerated?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for drawing my attention to the early-day motion, which, as it happens, I have read. I do not think it would be appropriate for the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills to come to the Dispatch Box on this matter, but, given the events surrounding the threat to the plant at Grangemouth, I hope that we see positive engagement between the company and the trade union.
Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)
The Government still have a significant stake in Royal Mail, so will the Leader of the House find time for a debate on how the privatised Royal Mail is doing when it comes to securing new customers and not losing the contracts it has? The experience of Polestar, a printing company in my constituency, is that, far from doing all they can do to keep customers, middle-ranking officials are hellbent on handing Royal Mail business to competitors.
Mr Lansley
If my hon. Friend has specific issues relating to the business he should, in addition to raising them with me, raise them with the chief executive of the company itself. It is important to recognise that we have created a whole new opportunity for Royal Mail to improve its services through access to private investment. I think that that will be transformative for Royal Mail. The fact that its share price has risen relative to its issue price is, I think, a reflection of the market sentiment that this is a business with an increasingly prosperous future.
Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) (Lab)
I enjoyed the interesting commentary from the Leader of the House on women’s history, but perhaps he would like to deal in the here and now and provide Government time for a debate on the position of women in the economy: the growing gender pay gap, the rising cost of child care and women’s long-term unemployment. Perhaps we could deal with those issues rather than have a history lesson.
Mr Lansley
I would be very happy if we were to have such a debate. It would give us an opportunity to highlight the fact that there are more women in jobs than ever before; we are giving parents access to good and affordable child care; we are creating, as I know from my previous responsibilities at the Department of Health, more than 1,000 extra health visitor posts to support women in the initial months after they have given birth; we are increasing the number of midwives to ensure that women have the right care they need during childbirth; and in this Parliament we are making the most positive and comprehensive reform of pensions, including pension entitlements, particularly in respect of the state pension, that give women access to the security of the single-tier pension, which is very important for their peace of mind in older age.
John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con)
Greater devolution is being passed to the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. This has resulted in places like Carlisle looking on enviously at the devolved powers and responsibilities granted to them. Will the Leader of the House agree to a debate on the future of local government in England, so that places like Carlisle can have the opportunity to see greater powers and responsibilities devolved to them?
Mr Lansley
I agree with my hon. Friend that this is an important matter. He will have noted the debate on local government finance reports on Wednesday next week, which provides the opportunity for Members to raise issues relating to local government. We can put the matter in a positive context not only through what has been achieved under the Localism Act 2011, but, more recently, through the ability of local authorities to retain business rate revenue and generate growth in their areas, and to benefit from that through the new homes bonus and growth bonuses. The devolution of the generation of growth and resources in local government in England mirrors what is happening in the national Governments of Scotland and Wales.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
In passing, may I say how good it is to see a bit more diversity on the Government Front Bench? It is just a shame that three of the four Members on the Front Bench not required to be there have silent roles—perhaps it is time the Leader of the House put in a word for their promotion so that they can speak.
I am a great champion of university technical colleges—there is one in my constituency—but is it not time we had a debate about the hurdles they face as a result of the age of recruitment being 14 and the sudden speed at which they are being opened? It is time a Minister came to the House to talk in detail about this matter and to answer questions on the roll-out of this policy.
Mr Lansley
I cannot promise a debate immediately. In defence of my hon. Friends on the Front Bench, I point out that one is here for the statement to follow, which I hope we will reach shortly, and the others, as Whips, are frequently on the Bench—and rightly so—in order to discharge their responsibilities.
In response to the hon. Lady’s question, I will ask the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to respond to her directly. I know she is interested in these issues.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
May we have a debate to put the spotlight on the success of the rural economy, which is flourishing in my constituency? We have some good examples of small businesses being established, including by women, which we need to salute too.
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend is right. The continuing generation of new businesses in rural areas—made possible not least by our planning reforms—has been important for the rural economy. It is important, too, that we continue to deliver access to fast broadband in rural areas, which I know is important to rural businesses, as it gives them the opportunity to run an international business from what would otherwise be thought a distant location.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
The Treasury has confirmed that 3.4 million people with an annual income of less than £7,225 each paid an average of £113 in national insurance contributions in 2011-12. Perversely, because class 1 NICs are collected weekly, someone on a fixed 20-hour contract on the national minimum wage does not pay NICs, whereas someone on a zero-hours contract with varying hours but earning the same annually does. May we have a debate on weekly calculated NICs and how we can make the system fairer for working people?
Mr Lansley
As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, after the Budget we conventionally introduce the Finance Bill, which affords an opportunity to debate these issues. He could also have raised the matter in the recent debate on the National Insurance Contributions Bill—I do not know whether he did. However, he should not have neglected to say that these are precisely the low earners who have benefited most from the Government’s increase in the personal allowance, which has taken 3 million out of income tax altogether.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
I have asked the Leader of the House over and over again—more than 10 times—for a debate on the Francis report. It was debated this morning on the “Today” programme. The Nuffield report, which has just come out, contains a foreword by Francis saying it is time that the regulator’s system-based culture was changed. I have a list of all the occasions this month when business has collapsed in the House, yet the Leader of the House keeps saying there is no time to debate the report. Will he please ensure that the House has a chance to discuss it properly?
Mr Lansley
I sympathise with my hon. Friend’s frustration, and I hope we can debate the Francis report soon. It is a year today since it was published, and since then much has been done, including the introduction of accountability under the new inspection regime and the new chief inspectors of hospitals, social care and primary care. A tremendous effort has been made to instil a culture of openness and candour in the NHS, to focus on safety and to create an understanding that quality of outcome is the overriding priority. I agree with what Robert Francis said in the Nuffield report foreword:
“The vast majority of front-line staff, who are consistently hard-working, conscientious and compassionate, have to understand that criticism of poor and unacceptable practice is not aimed at them but is part of a struggle to support everything they”—
and indeed we—
“stand for”
in the NHS. My hon. Friend raises a valid point about business. I hope that all we are doing and all that needs to be done will be the subject of a debate ere long.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Leader of the House listen to the demands for a debate on women’s employment? Doe he agree that we need more women in highly paid, powerful, entrepreneurial jobs? Is it not through crowdfunding, social impact investment and social entrepreneurialism that many women secure those important jobs? May we have an early debate—before the Budget—so that we can improve the tax treatment of people who invest in social enterprises?
Mr Lansley
I would welcome a debate on employment, and, indeed, on social enterprises. I cannot promise such a debate immediately, but I know that the House would appreciate it.
The hon. Gentleman may be aware that, according to the latest data, the number of unemployed women has fallen by 61,000 to 1 million, or 6.7%. The number of women in employment rose by 104,000, or 0.3 percentage points, in the last quarter. More than half a million more women have become employed since the general election.
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
A constituent of mine runs a rural business which depends on internet access to Government agricultural schemes, and next week is the busiest week of his year. However, he has been without internet access for nearly six weeks, since 28 December, when the problem was reported to TalkTalk, his provider. Despite numerous calls to both TalkTalk and BT, nothing has been done. Only BT Openreach can fix the problem, but that organisation is not on the phone. Can the Leader of the House advise me on how my constituent can get urgent attention so that his line fault can be fixed, short of going to the main road and flagging down an Openreach van?
Mr Lansley
I can tell my hon. Friend that, on more than one occasion in my constituency, flagging down an Openreach engineer’s van is exactly what my constituents have done.
I know that my hon. Friend will raise this issue with BT herself, but, exceptionally, I shall refer our exchange to BT and ask it to respond directly to her. Under the programme for extending superfast broadband access, contracts are now rolling out across the country, and we are trying to make that happen as quickly as possible. However, we need to ensure that we achieve not just notional access to superfast broadband, but reliable, good-quality access. I entirely take my hon. Friend’s point.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
May I draw the attention of the Leader of the House to the sad and tragic case of Colin Worton, who, as a soldier serving in Northern Ireland in 1983, was wrongly arrested and charged with a sectarian murder? He was subsequently released without conviction, but owing to the reputational damage that has followed him since, he has been unable to work. Would it be appropriate for us to have a debate about the case, and to see what recompense can be given to that former serving soldier?
Mr Lansley
It might be suitable for a case of that kind to be raised in an Adjournment debate, and the hon. Gentleman may wish to apply for such a debate. However, I know that the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), will be only too happy to talk to him about the case.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
May we have a debate on the impact and application of the excellent “assets of community value” scheme, a very welcome measure that was introduced in the Localism Act 2011? It is clear that some councils—including, I am afraid, Leeds city council—are deliberately turning down applications on the basis that they do not believe that the community could have a bid. Surely that is against the spirit of this important legislation.
Mr Lansley
It is important for the new right that has been given to communities to be exercised positively. The Government are funding a support programme to help communities to make use of the right to bid for assets of community value, which includes expert advice on grant funding for the development of business plans. As my hon. Friend knows, this is a matter for local councils, but he has rightly raised it on behalf of his constituents because he wants assets of community value to be recognised, and I hope that his local council will listen to what he has to say about assets of community value in his constituency.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
The Leader of the House will know the importance of energy-intensive industries to our manufacturing base. Will he therefore arrange for an urgent debate to examine the causes of the delay in the Government obtaining agreement from the European Commission to get compensation for industries for the indirect costs of the carbon floor price, and in particular to examine the concern that the Government are going to cave in over the backdating of that compensation?
Mr Lansley
I understand the importance of the energy-intensive industries to our manufacturing base, and my ministerial colleagues in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Department of Energy and Climate Change have been focusing on that issue, as the hon. Gentleman knows. Rather than elaborating further, however, I will ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change to respond to him.
Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con)
It is a year since the Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012 was rolled out across the country. May we have a debate to review its progress and to see what further measures could be taken to embed its principles in the commissioning process?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend makes a good point. The Act is now on the statute book and it gives public commissioners a good sense of how they should secure wider social, economic and environmental value when buying services. We hope to publish a one-year-on review of the Act shortly, and we are keen for commissioners to think intelligently about how their money can be used to deliver that value as far as possible. I cannot promise a debate immediately, but the publication of the review might stimulate a response, including opportunities for debate in the House.
Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)
Members on both sides of the House have been contacted by their constituents about the growing despair among businesses that use the Clydesdale bank. A directive from the National Bank of Australia is compelling the Clydesdale to put pressure on businesses by calling in loans and withdrawing overdraft facilities. That is resulting in businesses having to close and in the loss of jobs. Will the Leader of the House make Government time available so that this matter can be debated? Those banks are conducting business in a wholly unacceptable manner.
Mr Lansley
I have visited the Clydesdale bank in Cambridge in years past. It is part of the process of getting challenge and competition into the banking system and, in that context, I hope that banks will show greater customer responsiveness. The hon. Gentleman has raised an important point and I will of course ask my hon. Friends at the Treasury to look into this and respond to him, and to see what action could be taken by the Financial Conduct Authority.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
GCSE results in Tamworth have improved materially, and that is an important step in providing the skilled and confident local work force of the future. However, teacher knowledge and teaching provision for pupils with dyslexia and dyspraxia can be uneven, locally and across the country. May we have a debate on that important topic, and particularly on the provision of dyslexia and dyspraxia teaching in primary schools, to ensure that all kids get the best start in life?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. When we think about our motivation to deliver better schools and better skills for our young people, we should think about it not in the aggregate but in relation to delivering the best possible schooling and the highest possible standards for each child. That is our objective. Many children have special educational needs, and we want to ensure that those needs are recognised and responded to. This is part of what the Children and Families Bill is about, and there might or might not be an opportunity to raise that specific point on consideration of amendments on Monday. It is, of course, relevant. Also, my hon. Friends from the Department for Education will be here answering questions on Monday, so my hon. Friend might like to raise the issue then.
Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)
May we have an urgent debate on the appeal process for employment and support allowance? It is an expensive process, and it is a nightmare to negotiate for users of the system. A dispute over the work capability assessment must first be reconsidered by the Department for Work and Pensions, which can take a month, during which ESA is suspended. Claimants are left with no support and have to claim jobseeker’s allowance. Some have been refused JSA, however, because they are not fit for work. After the DWP has gone through its assessment process, the claimant can go to a tribunal, and 40% of those claims are successful. Would it not be appropriate—
Mr Speaker
Order. I think we have got the gist of the matter, which has been eloquently conveyed to the House. The hon. Lady might want an Adjournment debate on the matter; it would be good material.
Mr Lansley
I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s question. We have indeed got the gist of what she was saying, and it is important to us. It is the reason why we have taken action to ensure that the work capability assessment is fit for purpose. Our measures include: requiring Atos to retrain its staff; much closer monitoring; and bringing in new providers to carry out assessments. We have also announced that we will seek additional provision to conduct WCAs. I hope that we will continue on the programme, which has been an important and successful one, to ensure that those in receipt of benefits are subject to a proper assessment to see whether they are fit for work or eligible for ESA.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
May we have a debate on the Government’s proposals to introduce a charge on plastic carrier bags? No such opportunity is planned before the introduction of the charge as the necessary powers are available through existing legislation. This is a matter of concern to many, including small businesses, which are anxious not to have additional burdens imposed on them, and the plastics recycling sector, which is concerned that incentives to use biodegradable material will lead to contamination of the waste stream.
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend raises points that he and others have been at pains to ensure are part of the discussion taking place in a consultation. We are in the process of ensuring that we get the regulations right. I have had an opportunity to see how this measure works in Wales and I think it is a good thing to do. It will make a difference by reducing plastic waste dramatically, but we need to make sure that the regulations work effectively.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
Early-day motion 1035 describes an extraordinary rip-off, which, according to the European Commission, will cost British taxpayers £17.6 billion.
[That this House believes that the UK has been ripped off by Électricité de France (EDF) which has agreed to sell future electricity in France at £38 per Mwh while pressuring the Government to pay £92.50 per Mwh for Hinkley Point electricity, double the present price, index-linked and guaranteed against EDF loss for 35 years; and further believes this massive subsidy will inflate electricity bills for four decades.]
Why did the Government make an agreement with EDF to pay a price for electricity that is double the current going rate and three times what EDF will charge in future in France, and then guarantee and index link that price for 35 years? These details have never been discussed in this House—should they not be?
Mr Lansley
On the contrary, I have heard my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, when making statements to this House, explaining carefully the structure of the support that is to be given and the contract for difference that is going to be provided. Contrary to the point the hon. Gentleman makes, we should be emphasising the necessity, at this stage, of ensuring that we have the security of knowing that we have relatively carbon-free production from a secure source that is able to balance our requirements for energy in the future.
Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)
Many hon. Members will have heard from constituents who have overpaid for the congestion charge, or even when filing their own tax return, because of misleading websites or search returns. May we have a debate on making the internet a more consumer-friendly place, so that our constituents can find the genuine websites of Government, charities and trademark owners, not scammers, chancers and rip-off merchants?
Mr Lansley
I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for his question. We do take customer confidence in online services, especially those relating to Government services most widely, very seriously. The Minister for Civil Society has commissioned a cross-government exercise to gather information about the operation of third party websites offering services associated with official Government services, so that we can have a full understanding of the scale and nature of the problem. That will inform Ministers’ discussions on the best way to address the issues caused by the misleading activity of some third party websites.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
As the Member of Parliament whose constituency contains the excellent Hull university, I am concerned to hear press reports that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury wants to scrap the £300 million student opportunities fund. Will the Leader of the House arrange for the Chief Secretary to make a statement to the House explaining why, after trebling tuition fees, scrapping the education maintenance allowance and making cuts to further education, he now wants to axe the only part of the universities budget that is about assisting students from poorer backgrounds to go to university?
Mr Lansley
In the midst of that, the hon. Lady might have mentioned that applications to university are at record levels, including specifically from those from disadvantaged backgrounds. In relation to the point she raises, I know that she has heard Ministers at the Dispatch Box say that if there is any announcement to be made, it will be made in due course.
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)
At the moment the Environment Agency is still using a premium telephone number. It is owned by a French company called Teleperformance, which is turning over £2 billion a year. I have villages that are being evacuated at the moment. Can we please have a local number that people can phone without feeling that they are being ripped off?
Mr Lansley
I am glad to say that my colleagues from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs are in their places on the Front Bench and I know that they will continue to raise this issue with the Environment Agency. My hon. Friend will also have heard what the Prime Minister had to say about this. I hope that he is therefore assured that we are taking every step we can to give people access to high quality information in a way that does not impose unacceptable costs on them.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
May we have an urgent debate or question on the Government’s approach to local television? In Northern Ireland and England, the new local television services will be allocated channel 8 on Freeview, but in Wales and Scotland, the plan is to allocate them channel 26. These are public service broadcasting entities which should have due prominence under the legislation. Will the Leader of the House ask Ministers to come to the House to tell us what they are doing to ensure that those channels are given more prominent status on Freeview?
Mr Lansley
The hon. Gentleman tempts me to reach back into my past as a member of the Puttnam commission and the Standing Committee on the Communications Act 2003, but my recollection is that the Act gave the responsibility to Ofcom. I will therefore ask my colleagues at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport to check with Ofcom and respond to him on the points that he raises.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
May we have a statement about the Prime Minister’s long-term economic plan as it affects north Northamptonshire, which my right hon. Friend visited recently? Unemployment in Kettering has fallen by 26% in a year, in Wellingborough by 28% and in Corby by more than 36%. Would that allow us to say what a disaster Labour made and how much better the Conservatives would do on their own without the Liberal Democrats?
Mr Lansley
I wish I could find time for such a debate. There is always pressure on Government business, but such a debate would be very welcome. Apart from anything else, it would give the hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford), who is in his place, an opportunity to welcome the progress of the Government’s long-term economic plan and how it is creating more jobs and opportunities for his constituents. Even the shadow Leader of the House might like to join in, as unemployment has fallen by 20% in Wallasey in the last year.
Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)
Tempting though it is to switch my question, I want to ask about a serious matter of business. Papers released to me this week by the Department for Transport in response to a freedom of information request reveal that the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill) is secretly briefing Conservatives about plans to increase the speed limit on HGVs from 40 mph to 50 mph. That is surely a matter that should be brought before the House properly as there is a great deal of parliamentary and public concern. Can the Leader of the House arrange for that to happen?
Mr Lansley
I fear that I was not here throughout Transport questions, so I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman had the chance to raise that with Ministers. I have no knowledge of what he says, but I will of course raise it with my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Department and ask them to respond to him.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
As I have pointed out in previous business questions, Leicestershire is one of the lowest funded counties for education in the whole country. Teachers also tell me that schools have been missing out on the pupil premium because of the reluctance of parents to sign their children up for the free school meals to which they are entitled. May we have a statement on what action the Government can take to emphasise to parents how important it is to sign up for free school meals, and may we have a debate on universal credit and how it may allow the identification of families who qualify for the pupil premium without needing to reference the take-up of free school meals?
Mr Lansley
I recall the important point that my hon. Friend made about the education funding formula and I look forward to further announcements from colleagues soon. On his point about access to the pupil premium because of free school meals, the under-registration rate in 2013 is estimated to have been 11%, down from 14% in 2012. This is an important point. The pupil premium is an important part of the allocation of resources to support disadvantaged pupils. To support a more efficient system the Department has developed an award-winning free school meals eligibility checking system. This system enables local authorities very quickly to determine whether a parent can claim free school meals by linking benefits information from the Department for Work and Pensions with information from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the Home Office.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
Bishop Wordsworth’s grammar school in my constituency is again facing considerable pressure, redundancies and radical curriculum cuts this year as a consequence of the pressure caused by 16-to-18 underfunding. Will the Leader of the House make time for a debate on school funding so that we can ensure that outstanding schools, particularly grammar schools, are not severely damaged by this gap that exists at 16 to 18?
Mr Lansley
As my hon. Friend will have heard me say, I hope our hon. Friends at the Department for Education will be in a position to tell us more about the progress we can make towards a fairer funding formula where the funding for schools is related to the characteristics of the pupils, not historical funding allocations. I cannot give my hon. Friend a timetable for those announcements, but he will have noted that I mentioned previously that there is an opportunity to ask questions of our hon. Friends at the Department for Education at Education questions on Monday.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
Next week the Football Association is holding an exhibition in the Upper Waiting Hall on grassroots football, and Rainham school for girls in my constituency is delighted to have been asked to represent England at the Futsal world cup in Italy this year. May we have an urgent debate on increasing and supporting participation in grassroots football? I should also declare that I am a parliamentary fellow with the Football Association.
Mr Lansley
I applaud what my hon. Friend is doing and I am sure the whole House looks forward to seeing the exhibition in the Upper Waiting Hall. Members support grassroots football and football at every level and want to see the best possible governance of football, and, as I know from my experience as Leader of the House, they have frequently asked for a debate on football. There has not yet been an opportunity to have one, but Members might collectively wish to talk to the Backbench Business Committee about that.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Education is rightly placing demanding expectations on schools, pupils and teachers in efforts to drive up standards with testing, longer school days, and improved discipline. Sadly, constituents in the Vale of Glamorgan and across Wales will not benefit from these expectations and innovations. After 15 years of Labour rule in Wales there is a worrying divergence in standards, and the programme for international student assessment outcomes shows an even greater divergence from England in recent years. May we have a debate on education to consider the different approaches that are taken so we can compare and contrast the best practice across each of the nations?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend raises an important point and I wish it were possible. There are so many issues on which it would be helpful to have a debate, not least to be able to look at how the measures being brought forward by our right hon. Friend the Education Secretary and his colleagues are promoting improvements in standards, including making sure that we have the right discipline in schools and the right academic ambition. Progress has clearly been made as shown by the improvements in results and the dramatic reduction in the number of pupils in underperforming schools. There is still some distance to travel in terms of the PISA results, and that is being undertaken by the Government, but the continuing disparity between England and Wales must concern my hon. Friend and his constituents in Wales, and I am sure it would be helpful for this House to address that.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
While I was in Green Lanes, Palmers Green yesterday morning, I counted 12 betting shops along that stretch of road, which is saturation level. Following the welcome Department for Culture, Media and Sport review of fixed odds betting terminals, may we have a statement on any necessary additional local planning or licensing powers, such as a cumulative impact test, so that our local communities can regain the power to control their local high streets?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend rightly raises an issue that has been the subject of debate in this House, including quite recently when we were looking at the Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Bill and related issues. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government is sitting beside me, and if I may I will ask him to respond particularly in relation to the powers of local authorities in respect of betting shops in local areas.
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
Over the past two years, four new multi-million pound primary schools have opened up across Pendle, addressing the huge shortfall in school places that was left by the previous Government who ignored rising birth rates in the area and let immigration soar. May we have a debate on the funding of additional school places as part of this Government’s long-term economic plan?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend raises an important point. The previous Government’s Building Schools for the Future programme, which did not build any schools, completely ignored the demographic changes that were already evident in relation to births and the number of youngsters coming through into primary schools. I am delighted that he points to what we are doing. We will be spending £18 billion on school buildings over this Parliament, which is more than double the amount that Labour spent in its first two terms combined.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
When I had the pleasure of visiting Silkmore community primary school in Stafford, the inspirational head, Julie Mowbray, said how important the pupil premium and the funding for child care for two-year-olds were in her school, which has a high percentage of children receiving the pupil premium. May we have a debate on the effect of the pupil premium and child care funding for two-year-olds?
Mr Lansley
I am glad that my hon. Friend has had this opportunity to pay tribute to the work that is being done in his constituency. I cannot promise a debate immediately. He will have heard what I said about opportunities for questions, but it is important, none the less, that we have the opportunity to discuss how the implementation of our commitment to increase places for two-year-olds—this follows the introduction of our scheme for three-year-olds—will enable all young people to have access to the best possible early start in education.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
At yesterday’s Welsh Grand Committee, the Opposition completely torpedoed what we thought was an all-party agreement to grant tax-raising powers to the National Assembly for Wales and to make the Welsh Government fiscally accountable. May we have a statement in this Chamber on what was a stunning U-turn by the Opposition so that we can expose Labour as an anti-devolutionary and anti-Welsh party?
Mr Lansley
I am interested in what happened at the Welsh Grand Committee. In fact, the Deputy Leader of the House and I visited it yesterday morning for the first hour of the debate. Like my hon. Friend, I was astonished to hear the Opposition saying that they were opposed to this major extension of devolution to Wales. We are in a position to give the people of Wales the opportunity, through a referendum, to decide whether they want devolution. The Opposition seem to be against that.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
In Harrogate and Knaresborough, we have one of the lowest youth unemployment rates in the country. I recognise that we are seeing falls in youth unemployment nationally, but the level still remains worryingly high. Please may we have a debate about preparing young people for work?
Mr Lansley
I hope we will have further opportunities to debate that matter. The coalition Government can be proud of their achievements, including the 1.5 million apprenticeships during this Parliament, the extension of traineeships, and the commitment that young people should be in education, employment or training and that the skills they acquire should be increasingly appropriate for work in the future. We should take opportunities to discuss those achievements and support them.
Winter Floods
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to make a statement on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government on the action taken in the light of the recent floods and extreme weather. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is unable to update the House today, but I am sure that we all wish him a speedy recovery to his usual robust health.
One of the defining characteristics of Britain is the weather, but in recent months it has been particularly savage. Part of the country has been subject to flooding by the sea, rivers, surface water and ground water. In December, we saw the highest surge on the east coast for 60 years and this January has been the wettest since George III was on the throne. We will continue to face severe weather well into next week.
I want to put on the record my utmost sympathy for those affected. I know from my constituency the effects of flooding, and once the floodwaters go down there is the smell, the sludge and the enormous time it takes to dry a building out. Flooding has devastating effects on communities. I know it has been especially difficult for those families that have been flooded for many weeks and for those that have been flooded on more than one occasion in recent months. I think we have all been struck by the stark images of the stranded residents on the Somerset levels and their brave resolve to continue their daily lives, be it by boat or tractor.
I also want to pay tribute to the hard work of councils, the Environment Agency’s staff on the ground and our emergency services, who have supported communities 24 hours a day, literally going through hell and high water. Britain’s flood defences have protected more than 1.2 million properties since 5 December and the Thames barrier has protected £200 billion-worth of property. None the less, it is evident that those defences are taking a pounding. There is damage to transport infrastructure and sea defences, including the railway line at Dawlish, as well as to power networks.
More than 5,000 properties have been flooded, including 40 in Somerset. There are two severe flood warnings in the west country, 61 flood warnings and 223 flood alerts in place. Cobra has met regularly since 29 January and has responded to every local request for assistance. The Prime Minister will chair a further meeting of Cobra later today.
Following the Prime Minister’s statement yesterday, I can now report to the House the Government’s plans for further funding for flood and coastal erosion risk management. In the short term, I can announce that the Government will provide an additional £130 million for emergency repairs and maintenance, £30 million in the current year and £100 million next year. That will cover costs incurred during the current emergency response and recovery, as well as essential repairs to ensure that defences are maintained.
Emergency work on repairs started during December’s coastal surge. However, the full picture of the damage caused to flood defences has not yet emerged and the weather conditions have proved savage. The Government will therefore carry out a rapid review of the additional work needed to restore our flood defences and maintain them in target condition.
In addition, I am putting before the House today details of how my Department is enhancing the terms of the Bellwin scheme, which helps local authorities in England to meet the exceptional and unexpected costs associated with protecting lives and properties. The changes I am announcing today include paying Bellwin grant at 100% above the threshold instead of the normal default 85%; allowing upper-tier authorities with responsibility for fire to claim on a comparable basis to stand-alone fire authorities; reducing Bellwin thresholds for all county councils and unitary authorities; and extending the eligible period until the end of March 2014.
No council has yet made a formal claim under the Bellwin scheme, so no council has lost out as a result of these new announcements. Indeed, far more councils will be eligible to claim. The enhanced scheme terms reflect the exceptional nature of the recent weather events and the challenges facing local authorities in their roles as first responders. However, it is clear that the Bellwin scheme needs further reform, an opportunity that was sadly missed under the last Administration. We will be undertaking a full review of the Bellwin scheme in due course, while ensuring that councils continue to have the right incentives to stop flooding happening in the first place. I can also tell the House that immediately after this statement, Ministers will be holding a teleconference with council leaders from across the west country to discuss further flood recovery measures.
Of course, flood prevention is as important as flood recovery. The additional funding that we have outlined today will allow the Government programme of capital investment to continue, fulfilling our commitment to improve defences throughout England. We have already put in place investment plans to improve the protection of at least 465,000 houses by the end of the decade. In addition, we are today announcing 42 new flood defence schemes for 2014-15. Together with other projects beginning construction in 2014-15, this will protect more than 42,000 households. This includes schemes in Salford, which will improve protection for more than 2,000 homes and businesses; Clacton, where more than 3,000 homes are currently at risk; and Willerby in the east riding of Yorkshire, where more than 8,000 properties will be better protected. There are also smaller, but no less important, schemes in Lincoln, Stockton and Todmorden.
We will work to defend both town and country. For the record, and with respect, I have to say that I do not agree with the comments of the noble Lord Smith, who implied that there was a choice between town and country.
Looking further forward, we have made an unprecedented long-term six-year commitment to record levels of capital investment in improving defences: £370 million in 2015-16 and then the same in real terms each year, rising to over £400 million by the end of this decade. By the autumn statement, we will have published a six-year programme of work running right up to 2021, including a new long-term investment strategy on flood defences. We will provide an assessment of the future need for flood and coastal defences, taking account of the latest risk maps and economic analysis.
We should certainly look at how councils plan and mitigate flood risk, yet I note that the level of development on flood-risk areas is now at its lowest rate since modern records began, and 99% of planning applications for new homes in flood-risk areas are in line with expert advice. But, as the dark skies clear, there will be lessons to be learned, from the way in which we help local authorities to the role of quangos and the need for their local accountability, the influence of man-made policies on dredging, the effect of tree planting on our landscape and rivers, and the resilience of our nation as a whole throughout the 21st century.
The measures that the coalition Government have announced today provide a clear commitment to reduce the risks of flooding and coastal erosion. The additional funding means that, over this Parliament, this Government will be investing more than £3.1 billion, compared with £2.7 billion in the previous five years under the last Labour Government. This is more than ever before, in both cash and real terms, and we will spend it well and wisely. We cannot control the weather, but we can and will provide the security that hard-working families deserve to allow them to get on with their daily lives. I commend this statement to the House.
Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his statement, and for early sight of it. I begin by joining him in conveying, on behalf of the Opposition, our best wishes to the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs—we very much hope that he makes a speedy recovery. Can the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government tell us which of the Under-Secretaries of State will be dealing with DEFRA’s response in the Secretary of State’s absence?
As the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government rightly said, the situation facing communities in the Somerset levels remains extremely serious. The floods have not only left homes wrecked, but have left businesses facing ruin, and severe difficulties in accessing schools, workplaces and essential services. More families have faced the trauma of being evacuated from their homes overnight. The emergency services and Environment Agency staff continue to do an excellent job on the ground and have been consistently praised by residents, despite the serious criticisms of the lack of national leadership since the crisis began.
The fact is that the Government were caught out by the floods and Ministers took far too long to recognise the seriousness of the situation. Does the right hon. Gentleman understand why the Prime Minister’s claim yesterday that the Government’s response has not been slow will have been met with incredulity by the people of Somerset? The fact that DEFRA cannot answer parliamentary questions on when it first received requests for assistance from Somerset county council and Sedgemoor district council says everything about the chaos and confusion that has beset its response. There have now been 21 meetings of Cobra, but it is far from clear what all the talking has achieved. It is no wonder that the Prime Minister became so exasperated that yesterday he put himself in the chair.
The funding announced by the Prime Minister yesterday, and by the Secretary of State today, is welcome, but let us be clear that that is simply restoring, and for just over one year, the reduction in annual spending on flood protection that has taken place under this Government. The Government’s own figures, published last month by DEFRA, show that they reduced the budget from £670 million in 2010-11 to £573 million in 2011-12, a cut of over £97 million. The budget has remained at a similar level for the past two years. Reversing that cut for just over a year is a complete admission by the Government that they got it wrong. Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the additional resources will be added to the baseline of the flood protection budget for future years, or is the intention to cut the budget again next year?
How will the Government close the £80 million hole in the partnership funding that Ministers claim they will be able to secure from external contributions but which they have not yet been able to secure? Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that the Prime Minister was wrong when he again claimed yesterday that more would be spent in the four years between 2011 and 2015 than in the previous four years?
DEFRA’s own figures show that £2.37 billion was spent between 2007-8 and 2010-11 and that £2.34 billion will be spent between 2011-12 and 2014-15. The Prime Minister and the Government really must stop fiddling the figures. The Secretary of State again used numbers today that are different from those that the Prime Minister used in the House yesterday. Thanks to a freedom of information request, we know that the Environment Secretary cut more than 40% from the domestic climate change budget last year. Was that really the right priority for the biggest cut to any DEFRA programme?
With regard to the immediate challenges facing people in the south-west, councils will welcome the announcement that support under the Bellwin scheme will now be paid at 100%, but why did the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government say last month that he would pay only 85% of the eligible costs, when the scale of the damage was already clear? Will he also confirm when he expects the electricity supply to be restored to the homes that have been affected by power cuts?
What specific assurances can the right hon. Gentleman give regarding the restoration of rail services west of Exeter? He will understand the disastrous consequences for the region’s economy of the loss of that service. We have all seen how serious the damage in Dawlish is and understand that this is not straightforward, but can he be clearer than the Prime Minister managed to be in his response to my right hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) yesterday about what can be done in the short and long term?
After the 2007 floods, the previous Government commissioned the Pitt review, and Pitt’s report provided the blueprint for action to improve flood resilience and response. Why did the Government stop producing progress reports on the 92 recommendations in January 2012 despite 46 of them still being badged as “ongoing” and many having no planned completion date? At the time of the final update, the recommendations that had not been implemented in full included all the recommendations on knowing where and when it will flood, six on reducing the risk of flooding, 10 on being rescued and cared for during an emergency, and seven on maintaining power supplies. Why have the Government chosen not to establish either the Cabinet Committee on improving the country’s ability to deal with flooding, or the national resilience forum, both of which were recommended by the Pitt review? Will the Secretary of State make a clear commitment to publishing a further progress report on each of the recommendations in the Pitt review by the end of this month?
Yesterday the Prime Minister tweeted that there would be “no restrictions on help” for those affected by the flooding. Will the Secretary of State explain precisely what that means? Will he tell the House whether people are still being charged at a premium rate when they call the floods helpline?
Mr Pickles
I thank the hon. Lady for her kind remarks about my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. The very able Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson), will be dealing with these matters.
I am quite surprised that the hon. Lady is in a position to reply to the statement, because given all the chuntering that took place during my delivery of it, I did not think she was paying an awful lot of attention. I had the opportunity—this is like a double whammy for me—of listening to her on Sky this morning, when she explained to viewers that the previous Government had enhanced the amount of money that was available for flooding following the problems in 2007. She is condemned out of her own mouth, because the facts are straightforward and out there—under the last five years of the Labour Government, they spent £2.7 billion and we will be spending £3.1 billion. You cannot argue with those figures.
The hon. Lady said “What a shock” about our providing 85% of Bellwin. That is the normal course of events. Perhaps she does not understand how the system works. This is money that we use to compensate, and no claims have been made as yet. It is normal procedure to set it at 85%. Perhaps she may consider this: in the 30 years that Bellwin has been in existence, this is the very first time that the threshold has been reduced. This is a real help to local councils, and she should not be so parsimonious about it.
With regard to the railway, the hon. Lady said, “Why didn’t we know?” She just needs to look at those dramatic television pictures of the railway at Dawlish—Brunel’s great, beautiful railway. We are not in a position to make an assessment of how long this is going to take because right now, as we speak, people are working to shore up the bank and protect the damaged railway from the next surge that is coming. It is utterly ridiculous to expect anything other than that.
The hon. Lady asked why we have not updated the Pitt review. She will recall that we set up the Flood Forecasting Centre, which has been producing very straightforward predictions. Perhaps she should spend a little less time in the television studios and more time with Google.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
May I convey our best wishes to the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs for his recovery?
Will my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government confirm that the Prime Minister yesterday stated that he is ordering a review of all the spending, including the 2004-05 points system that we inherited, which has led, I believe, to some of the problems? Will he indicate how the allocation of spending has been divided between capital and revenue, and how maintenance spending within the revenue allocation has been divided among repairs, dredging and desilting? Will the facilities, including pumps, be returned to the drainage boards—as we hope will be the case—in order for them to pay for them to be repaired and returned to a good state?
Mr Pickles
My hon. Friend makes some reasoned and telling points. I have spoken several times this morning to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, who mentioned a letter he had received from my hon. Friend. We certainly hope and are keen to update the figures given to the Select Committee. I know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has visited my hon. Friend’s constituency to look at the damage and potential problems. My hon. Friend’s experience in everything she does is of great value to the House.
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)
In response to a question asked yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), the Prime Minister said:
“Where extra investment and protections are needed, they must be put in place.”—[Official Report, 5 February 2014; Vol. 575, c. 269.]
Those good words were followed today by a £30 million pledge from the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, yet the local enterprise partnerships, local authorities, local transport boards and people in the south-west simply do not believe them. Last year we were promised £31 million—more than the £30 million—for resilience work, but it has disappeared. It is not good enough.
Mr Pickles
Our discussions with local authorities in the south-west area have been far more constructive than the hon. Lady has been. It is extraordinary for her to just dismiss £130 million as though it were a mere bagatelle. This Government have shown real commitment and we will consult local government leaders on the Bellwin threshold straight after this statement.
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)
May I indulge myself by thanking the emergency services, the Environment Agency people on the ground and everybody who is at this precise moment trying to get people out of houses in Moorland and Fordgate?
One of our problems is that Sedgemoor district council, which the Secretary of State knows well, is dipping into reserves to try to make sure it does everything it can, including evacuating cattle. Is there any chance that the Bellwin formula could be used to help Sedgemoor district council in particular to recoup the money it is now having to spend to safeguard its areas?
Mr Pickles
I thank my hon. Friend for that question. That is exactly what Bellwin is designed to do. I can confirm that, as yet, Sedgemoor council has not made any claims. I also give my hon. Friend an undertaking that when formal claims are made—we do not require everything to be in at one time—we will do our best to ensure that the payment is made promptly. I assure him that the changes will be very helpful indeed to Sedgemoor.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
My constituency and parts of Cumbria are still suffering with fresh outbreaks of flooding. Will the Secretary of State confirm that the local authority will be eligible for the extra resources he has pledged? Is he as concerned as I am by the determination of South Lakes district council to build new houses on floodplains? It is not Conservative-controlled, in case he is worried about criticising his chums.
Mr Pickles
I suspect that might concern my coalition partners. I can recognise an elephant trap when it is there.
With regard to eligibility, absolutely—the local authority will of course be eligible for the scheme. The hon. Gentleman’s council has not yet made a claim, which is not unreasonable, and that is why we have extended it to the end of March.
The amount of building on the floodplain is at an all-time low. In fact, it is the lowest—[Interruption.] I am terribly sorry, but there are noises off. As I was trying to say before I was bullied by Opposition Members, such building is at the lowest level ever. I think that about 99% of objections by experts in relation to floodplains have been successful.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I do not think that we need to worry about the Secretary of State being bullied. Any Bradford Bulls supporter well knows how to deal with being bullied.
Mr Jeremy Browne (Taunton Deane) (LD)
To offer a balanced view, it is fair to say that many residents of Somerset feel that the Government were slow off the mark, but they are now grateful that the Government appear to be acting in a way that matches the enormous size of the challenge, particularly in dredging the River Tone and the River Parrett. Will the extra funding support, which the Secretary of State talked about today and the Prime Minister talked about yesterday, be made available in the long term for long-term solutions? There is now flooding right across Taunton Deane, not just on the Levels, and dealing with the problem requires a river catchment approach and a longer-term view, not only immediate responses to emergencies.
Mr Pickles
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend that the question is one of river catchments and long-term solutions. Our priority is obviously to deal with the immediate aftermath, but we clearly need to look at dredging. The previous Government probably made a mistake in ending the dredging.
For the avoidance of doubt, Mr Deputy Speaker, when I referred to being “bullied”, I was using the term ironically.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
I have just heard and read the Secretary of State’s statement on behalf of the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and there was no mention of resources for emergency services. Between September and December last year, my East Cleveland constituency suffered badly from the surges and floods on the east coast of England. Instigated by the Secretary of State, there has been a cumulative cut of £4 million to Cleveland fire brigade over this Parliament, and there will be a further cumulative cut of £5.96 million to 2017-18. It is not a statutory requirement to respond to flooding, so how will emergency services deal with flooding in the future?
Mr Deputy Speaker
Before the Secretary of State stands up, may I say that we need quick questions and brevity in answers? I want to get every hon. Member in on this important statement, but there is a very important and over-subscribed debate to follow.
Mr Pickles
The hon. Gentleman asks whether we should make responding to flooding a statutory requirement for our fire authorities. I am afraid that that is a rather old-fashioned view. How we respond to emergencies is well set out through local resilience forums: it relates not just to the fire authority, but goes right across local authorities, including to the health authority and the like. Frankly, those obligations are laid down in legislation and work perfectly well.
Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)
I very much welcome the Secretary of State’s comment that we need to protect both town and countryside. I believe that we have to force the sea back and keep it out, not retreat from it, as we have done for years. We need a tidal sluice on the end of the Parrett, and to make sure that we dredge our rivers, such as the Exe and the Axe. I really welcome today’s statement.
Mr Pickles
It is important for us to emphasise that we should not just look after people who live in towns or rural areas, but ensure that agriculture can survive and thrive in rural areas, so my hon. Friend makes an absolutely excellent point.
Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)
The Secretary of State said that the Government will work to defend “both town and country” and that there are lessons to be learned about the “resilience of our nation”, so I assume that he regrets the swingeing cuts to flood defence work. In view of the increased extreme weather, will he accept that it is time to implement the Pitt review in relation to the statutory responsibilities of the fire and rescue services, and to reverse the cuts that he is making to firefighters? [Interruption.] There will 5,000 fewer firefighters by 2015 than there were in 2010. They do heroic work in rescuing people—[Interruption.]
Mr Deputy Speaker
Order. I think that the Secretary of State has certainly got the message. It is not helpful for other hon. Members to join in, because I may have to ask for the question to be repeated if I cannot hear it. I want to get you all in, but please help me to do so.
Mr Pickles
Heaven forbid that the last question should be repeated! The hon. Gentleman is simply gullible if he believes everything that comes from the unions. He seems to be more interested in union rights than in the people who are suffering because of the flooding.
Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)
I met the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, whom I wish well, on Monday to talk about dredging. He seemed to suggest that there could be local input. By that, I think he meant input from local councils. What discussions is the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government having with the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Environment Agency about reintroducing dredging for many of our rivers?
Mr Pickles
My hon. Friend makes a reasonable point. I recall going around Tewkesbury with him and looking at the damage that was done to a local public house. I remember the resilience of the people in that area. Dredging is particularly appropriate for man-made landscapes like the levels. It might not necessarily work terribly well elsewhere. I have fields that are flooded in Essex. That works extremely well and has protected the area. We are willing to have those discussions, but there is not a one-size-fits-all approach.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
On 25 November in Communities and Local Government questions, I asked the Secretary of State about the contradiction in the Government’s Help to Buy scheme being heavily promoted in areas that are at risk of flooding. He promised to get back to me, but I have not heard anything. I wonder whether he might answer that question now.
Mr Pickles
I apologise for not getting back to the hon. Lady. If she heard the statement, she will know that building on floodplains that have a high risk of flooding is at an all-time low.
Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con)
This winter in Oxford West and Abingdon, flooding has led to loss of life, community chaos and property flooding. It is not only deeply distressing for residents but has brought our economy to a standstill. I am very grateful for the commitment to provide emergency funding and I hope that my council will apply. However, does the Secretary of State agree that it is long-term solutions, such as the western conveyance that we are campaigning for in Oxford, that will ensure we are not back here having the same debate every year?
Mr Pickles
My hon. Friend is a redoubtable campaigner for her constituents. I have no doubt that she will raise that issue with the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he returns. We are looking for long-term solutions.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
On Christmas eve, 35 properties in my constituency were flooded, not because any flood defences were overwhelmed but because of the failure of the Environment Agency to keep a culvert clear. Its failure to accept responsibility for that has major implications for future insurance premiums for my constituents. In addition, it has altered the area of the floodplain. When my constituents renew their insurance, they are finding that it has gone up from an average of £500 a year to nearly £6,000 a year. Will the Secretary of State discuss those matters with the Environment Agency? Will he get it to accept responsibility for that event and discuss with it the implications of the floodplain for my constituents’ insurance policies?
Mr Pickles
The hon. Gentleman has a deserved reputation for dealing with his constituents’ problems assiduously. I will ensure that the specific case that he makes is raised with the agency.
Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)
Will the Secretary of State join me in offering sincere condolences to the holiday towns and villages in my constituency that have suffered from severe coastal flooding? Looe, Polperro, Seaton, Tregonhawke, Cawsand, Kingsand, Cremyll and the Wild Futures monkey sanctuary have all been affected. Will he send out the clear message that he will do everything that he can to help those places, and with half-term coming up, will he send out a message to the wider public that south-east Cornwall is still very much open for business?
Mr Pickles
Many Members of the House are familiar with my hon. Friend’s constituency and have many happy memories of it. The changes that we are making to the Bellwin scheme will benefit Cornwall directly.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
Following serious flooding in England in 2007, the UK Government accessed €162 million from the European Union solidarity fund. Why have the UK Government not accessed that fund, as a member state, following the storms this year, which have hit west Wales hard? In failing to do so, are they not guilty of absolving themselves of their responsibility to help Welsh communities in times of crisis?
Mr Pickles
Matters relating to flooding are devolved—[Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman will let me answer his question, I will remind him that that scheme also has a threshold, which I believe is €3 billion.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We want brief questions, and I will cut off the debate at 12.30 pm. It is up to hon. Members to look after themselves.
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
I thank the Secretary of State for his statement and the extra help for Somerset, and I recognise the expertise of the Axe Brue Internal Drainage Board and the whole catchment approach. Will the Secretary of State consider extraordinary changes to the planning laws, so that any statutory consultee that relies on a historic view of an 100-year floodplain changes that because it is no longer appropriate?
Mr Deputy Speaker
That is a bad example of being brief. Hon. Members must be brief; otherwise, they will stop colleagues getting in.
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)
Flooding from failed sewers has a devastating effect on householders and is a health hazard. In Romsey there is a particular problem with Victorian sewers that have been overwhelmed by the ingress of surface water. What reassurance can my right hon. Friend provide that the extended Bellwin scheme will assist fiscally prudent counties such as Hampshire to help our communities?
Mr Pickles
I think Hampshire has behaved particularly well throughout the crisis, and in liaising with my Department and with DEFRA it has been exceptionally good. It is not about the type of activity; there is a threshold, and the decisions we have just made will help Hampshire with the threshold on Bellwin.
Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con)
Is the Secretary of State aware that Norfolk’s sea defences held up remarkably well against a record surge? Most repairs have been carried out, but one section that has not been repaired is along Beach road at Brancaster. Will he talk to the Environment Agency about that important stretch of flood defences?
Mr Pickles
I certainly will. We tried to use that period to get a lot of emergency work done, but I suspect it might not have been possible or safe to have looked at those defences then. I will remind the Environment Agency, which I am sure will be round as soon as possible.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
As well as taking on extra responsibilities, the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson), will chair a committee for action on the Somerset levels. Will the Secretary of State ensure that funds and resources are available immediately for the important work that needs to be done?
Mr Pickles
My hon. Friend does not need to rely on me; the Prime Minister said so loud and clear yesterday.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
The floods have caused huge anxiety not only in south-west England but in some parts of Shropshire. Does the Secretary of State agree that one way to mitigate future flooding is to ensure that new home development is not excessive, and also bears in mind the physical infrastructure such as drainage in local towns and villages?
Mr Pickles
My hon. Friend is perhaps one of the cleverest people to lobby a Minister. I got the message.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
Will the Secretary of State confirm that the Government have put forward £4.6 million for better weather forecasting by using space technology, and that we are only one of three countries in the world doing that, so in future the Met Office will be able to predict these incidents better?
Mr Pickles
I have been involved with Cobra right the way through this process, and one thing that has genuinely surprised me is how frighteningly accurate the weather forecasting has been. If that is because of space technology, it is money well spent.
George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con)
Many of the villages in my constituency are currently flooded, but none more so than Hambledon where 1 foot of water has been running up and down the high street for four weeks, and probably will for another four. Spending £3.5 million will sort that out for ever. Please will the Secretary of State intervene?
Mr Pickles
That is a good illustration of the effect of ground water, and we should be particularly proud of the way that community organisations have worked together, especially in looking after the vulnerable.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
When hundreds of homes flooded in my constituency in December, it unfortunately coincided with the death of President Mandela and did not get the coverage we are seeing at the moment. I welcome the commitment made today, particularly in relation to Bellwin and the funding measures announced at Snaith of £3.2 million. May I commend to the Secretary of State North Lincolnshire council and Councillor Liz Redfern, who made £300 available to every flood victim within a week? The council has set up interest-free loans of £1,000 for all victims, to be paid back over five years.
Mr Pickles
Liz is a terrific leader and this is an example of how adaptable councils are. One thing has been noticeable: when we look at the television pictures of what is happening, we can always spot a local councillor, filling up the sandbags, taking care of the locality. That is what it means to be a local councillor—not just talking about politics, but offering practical help.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
Parts of my constituency flooded twice over Christmas, though floods are predicted to take place only once in every 100 years. Bournemouth council and local agencies met affected residents on Monday and the big question was how Bournemouth applies for part of the £130 million emergency funding. Could the Secretary of State please write to Bournemouth borough council to explain the process?
Mr Pickles
I am looking at the schemes here and it appears that my hon. Friend has been successful. Perhaps we could have a word afterwards.
Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
The statement today will be very reassuring to people in Cornwall. What assessment has the Secretary of State made about the money that Cornwall will get as a result of the welcome reform to the Bellwin scheme?
Mr Pickles
We will be talking carefully with local authorities about the level at which the new threshold should come in. Although we have not yet made an announcement, we are consulting informally. I can safely say that the sum will be an awful lot more than my hon. Friend would have got under the previous regime.
Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con)
The announcement today on the reform of Bellwin, including thresholds, is welcomed by many of us who have been lobbying for change since the Calder Valley floods of two summers ago. Does the announcement on river dredging include rivers like the Calder in the Calder Valley, despite the fact that the Environment Agency is against dredging?
Mr Pickles
Oh my goodness, I have the schemes here. Four schemes have been approved in my hon. Friend’s constituency, which will help enormously, and of course we are willing to talk to the Environment Agency about what is needed.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
Given the multimillion pound damage to communities around my constituency this very week, can the Secretary of State assure me that of the £130 million available, some will be available for the rail service, and that there will be greater evidence of collaboration between Network Rail and the Environment Agency?
Mr Pickles
The hon. Gentleman makes a reasonable point about the railways. We recognise that they are an important economic asset. I know that it is something that the Prime Minister personally is very concerned about, and arrangements are being made as we speak.
Dame Angela Watkinson (Hornchurch and Upminster) (Con)
What discussions have been held or are planned with the insurance industry to reassure people with properties in flood-risk areas?
Mr Pickles
We regularly talk to the insurance industry. The Water Bill will go some way towards providing reassurance. Its passage through Parliament will show that we have agreed to continue to abide by the commitments under the 2008 statement of principles. The Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall, has just whispered to me that if my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Dame Angela Watkinson) has a particular point in mind, he would be happy to deal with it.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
I welcome the statement today. Looking beyond the current situation, can my right hon. Friend tell the House what plans the Government have to speak to countries like s Denmark and the Netherlands about how we can share experience in managing flood risks in the future?
Mr Pickles
Dutch companies, not surprisingly, are already in contact with us about the levels, and as the Dutch built them, they are probably in the best position to help us out.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
I welcome the proposed changes to the Bellwin scheme, which will help Suffolk councils help Suffolk families and businesses. May I encourage my right hon. Friend to think about sending the Royal Engineers to repair the railway in Dawlish, although that is not in my constituency? They did the job in Cumbria in a very short time. I think they could get Cornwall and Devon back on their feet quickly.
Mr Pickles
The Prime Minister has made it clear—I hope my hon. Friend will like this—that there is no restriction on the use of the armed services. Should local authorities require them, they will be there, but I emphasise that we do not know the level of the damage. Right now what we are trying to do is protect the track.
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
I welcome what the Secretary of State has said today about the Government response to the floods. However, my constituent Linda Barker has contacted me to ask how people like her, in areas unaffected by flooding, can help to support people who have been affected. Charities like the British Red Cross provide support to flood victims, but will my right hon. Friend tell the House how he is ensuring that people like Linda can support charities that work with flood victims?
Mr Pickles
Churches and voluntary organisations are doing a terrific job. The Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis), has had discussions with voluntary organisations. If my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) would care to discuss this with him afterwards, we might be able to help his constituent.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
There has been much debate about how we can move flood water efficiently to the sea to save areas that are being flooded, but does my right hon. Friend agree that it is every bit as important to retain flood water where the rainwater falls? There is a brilliant scheme in Plynlimon in my constituency in Wales, which has a positive impact on the whole of the Severn valley in England.
Mr Pickles
I agree with my hon. Friend. I said earlier that no single solution should be applied right across the board. I have experience of a similar scheme that has been very effective, although such a scheme would obviously not work in the Somerset levels.
Backbench Business
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Scotland’s Place in the UK
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
There will be an opening speech of 10 minutes. I warn everybody that there will be a five-minute limit on speeches thereafter, apart from the wind-ups.
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered Scotland’s place in the UK.
Let me begin by thanking my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) and other hon. Members who serve on the Backbench Business Committee for granting the House the opportunity to debate a proposition that will dominate much of this referendum year across our islands: Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom. As we shall no doubt hear in the debate, this is a question of identity and economics. Above all, it is a battle of visions for the future of Scotland—one with huge implications for the future of other multinational states across the world.
I reject the binary and false choice that some seek to make in this debate that people have to choose between Scottishness or Britishness and cast their vote accordingly on 18 September. I am a proud Scot, but see no contradiction between that patriotism and my strong sense of Britishness—or, indeed, my additional citizenship of the European Union. In an increasingly interconnected world characterised by ever-evolving apps and networks, the concept of mutually exclusive identities does not reflect the real lived experience of billions of people.
Before I was elected to this House, I worked in universities in both Glasgow and London. I saw the challenges they faced in common. I never looked on the young people from east London, whom I taught in this great city, as strangers or foreigners; in fact, they were often fascinated by the study of devolution in my constitutional law classes. I knew them as people with whom I share an identity, and want to continue sharing a state with, for the benefit of all of us.
Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
In this debate on the future of the Union, will my hon. Friend acknowledge that the Union is not merely between Scotland and England, but Wales and Northern Ireland too?
Mr Bain
My hon. Friend makes an important point and I am pleased that we have Members from all parts of the United Kingdom in the Chamber for this debate.
As a student, I campaigned for a devolved Scottish Parliament and marched to The Mound in Edinburgh; never with a flag in my hand, but with hope in my heart that powers should be exercised at the most appropriate level for the purpose of improving the lot of ordinary people in Scotland. I did so because I believed, and still believe, that decision making in many public services and on many economic policies is best exercised at a more localised level. However, I strongly believe in retaining the advantages of a collective macro-economic framework, of a collective social security system and of cross-UK business, borders and diplomatic policies used to promote greater justice at home and across the world.
We ought to recognise the great force for good the Scottish Parliament has been in Scottish politics, whether on housing policy, land reform or other policy areas, and never has it been greater than this week, when it passed a Bill, in its own way, to secure equality before the law for LGBT people living in Scotland. This was an expression of Scotland’s values being complementary to, not divergent from, those in other parts of the United Kingdom.
The devolution settlement has evolved before, it will change again in 2015 and 2016, with the introduction of significant new financial responsibilities over borrowing and income tax, and it can accommodate further reforms in the future. In the 1997 referendum, the late John Smith was proved correct—strong devolution within the United Kingdom was the settled will of the Scottish people—and I believe we will express that loudly and clearly again in this upcoming referendum.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
As I understand the position of the Labour party in Scotland, it favours the full devolution of income tax powers to the Scottish Parliament. Yesterday, we heard a speech from the 1970s from the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), in the Welsh Grand Committee, in which he said that fiscal devolution was tantamount to destroying the fabric of the British state. Will the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) explain to the House and the people of Scotland what exactly is Labour’s position on fiscal devolution?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
It might help Mr Edwards to know that he was on the list to speak, and I do not want to keep banging people down the list because they intervene. I do not want to stop debate—I do not mind interventions—but please ensure they are brief and not continual.
Mr Bain
I want to keep the focus on positivity in this debate, and I would simply point out to the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) that the one party that was inconsistent in its approach to tax powers being devolved in the Scotland Act 2012 was the party he sits alongside on those Benches.
As a result of the Edinburgh agreement, Scotland faces a choice between two futures in the 18 September referendum: an optimistic path that builds on the strength of the devolution settlement and our common institutions, such as the Bank of England, to make our economy more productive and where ordinary people share more in the benefits of growth; and a pessimistic path implying that erecting borders is more important than bringing down barriers in terms of inequality and lack of opportunity across these islands.
Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)
The hon. Gentleman says he wants to make a positive case. In a debate about significant constitutional change, to take such a tone is a good thing, but if he is making a positive case and if the Labour party knows what further powers it wants to give to the Scottish Parliament, will he say whether it is true that some of his colleagues are going to boycott his own party conference?
Mr Bain
That is an odd intervention, because I am looking forward to my party conference in Perth—I have already booked my rail ticket—and I will enjoy campaigning in the city of the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) when I am there.
No silver bullet comes from statehood and no instant answer to declining living standards will come from redrawing lines on a map. It will take politicians at every level of governance, together with civic society and engaged citizens across these islands, to work together so that ordinary people share more fairly in the wealth they produce, to reform our banking system, to work towards a more universal child care system and to reverse the crises of long-term youth unemployment, low business investment and weak productivity before they cause long-term damage to the fabric of our country. We must reshape lives, not reorder our geography.
I am optimistic about Scotland’s future. It is the home of groundbreaking initiatives on science and research, supporting high-level manufacturing and enhancing the huge international reputation of our universities and colleges. Scotland’s economy can have a great future as a beacon for investment in renewable energy, if we combine our natural resources with the strength of UK investment networks and markets. I see a Scotland where, through UK Trade & Investment, we increase our share of global trade, creating thousands of jobs in manufacturing, including in our largest manufacturing sector, our burgeoning food and drink export industries.
We can remove the barriers to work for tens of thousands of women in Scotland by creating a more universal child care system, which is one of the biggest drivers of increased prosperity in working households with children; we can support sectors of the economy that create high-skilled, higher-paying jobs; and we can deliver a revolution in workplace skills to make progression within a job and a career a reality for millions. Our ambition must be to create a society that has better health and educational outcomes and that uses the strengths of every level of government to eliminate the in-work and out-of-work poverty in Scotland described so starkly this week by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation.
Such a vision can be delivered only on foundations that are secure, not built on sand. If Scotland is to prosper, rather than merely survive, we need sterling as our strong and guaranteed currency, backed by a monetary, fiscal, banking and political union and anchored by the Bank of England as our central bank. If Scotland is to thrive rather than languish, we need a single market in goods, capital, labour and products across the United Kingdom, with no internal barriers to ambition or trade. If Scotland is to walk tall in the world and tackle global poverty, hunger and disease, as well as climate change, we need the strongest representation through the United Kingdom in a range of international bodies, stretching from the G8, to the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, the Commonwealth, the UN Security Council, the Council of Europe and—yes—the European Union.
The only way we can bolster these foundations is by rejecting separation and endorsing devolution and full partnership within the United Kingdom. I look forward to hearing the contributions in this debate, but I reflect on the fact that the nature of politics has to change in Scotland too. The spirit of unity in 1999 has sadly turned into an air of rancour and bitterness. If, as I hope, we achieve a strong and decisive vote in favour of devolution and against separation, people in Scotland will need to move forward not as divided tribes of devolutionists and nationalists consumed by enmity, but filled with a shared political destiny.
I hope we can reach out the hand of friendship to those on the other side of the debate and begin the conversation that my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander) mentioned in order to move from the low divisiveness of these times to the uplands of a Scotland that can thrive within a strong United Kingdom. I look forward to hearing the rest of this debate, but my wish is that by the end of this year we can proceed in one direction, as one people, one Scotland, as part of one United Kingdom whose best days are ahead of us.
Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con)
Unusually, I agree with just about every word I have just heard from the Opposition Benches.
In the short time available, I want to say a few words about the consequences of independence for currency arrangements in the rest of the UK and Scotland, but I ought first to make it clear that the Scots are not without options: they could create their own currency, whether pegged or free floating, they could create a currency board or they could join the euro. All these options are available. But the frontrunner in some quarters seems to be the creation of a formal single currency with the rest of the UK. In the current economic and political circumstances, this should not be attempted, and in the four minutes now available to me, I will try to explain why.
The primary reason is that a British monetary union would need something dramatically tougher than the eurozone rules—so tough that, on both sides of the border, if it was fully explained, I am confident our respective electorates would not want it. And they would be right. It would amount to a common fiscal policy between independent countries, which would be a massive undertaking to design and sustain.
John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Was my hon. Friend struck, as I was, by the Treasury output graphs that we saw at the end of Governor Carney’s speech? They showed that banking in Scotland would represent 12.7 times the economy—five points greater than the seven times for Iceland—and that it would be unsustainable without the currency union provisions my hon. Friend is describing.
Mr Tyrie
I think it crucial for us to understand that a banking union could well trigger the migration of banks to London, where they would be able to benefit from the “lender of last resort” facilities provided by the Bank of England.
Let me say something about what a common fiscal policy would entail. It would mean, for instance, pre-approval of budget proposals, which would be accompanied by intensive and very intrusive oversight of budgetary outcomes. It would require rigorous powers to insist on overshoots being corrected quickly and reversed, backed up by credible sanctions for non-compliance.
In order to carry credibility, such powers would probably need to be directly applicable in law on both sides of the border. What that means in practice is that the Bank of England and the Treasury would have the power to direct a large part of Scottish economic and financial policy. For example, the Scots would probably be required to seek their approval before they could borrow in order to build schools and hospitals.
Is it realistic to imagine that all those in Scotland who had just voted for independence would readily accept such intensive supervision and direction from the rest of the United Kingdom? I doubt it.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)
The Chair of the Treasury Committee is making an interesting assessment, but what he is saying is not necessarily the case. If the stability arrangements were made at the aggregate deficit or debt level, and if both countries were required to adhere to them, the line-by-line scrutiny of spending plans he describes would not be necessary, would it?
Mr Tyrie
Countries in the eurozone were required to abide by the stability and growth pact, and look where that took us. We need something much more robust than that to make a currency union work, and I am pretty confident that it would not be any more acceptable in Scotland than it will be in England.
Let me now say something about the effects of a currency union on the rest of the United Kingdom. It would, after all, have to be a two-way street. Is it realistic to expect the rest of the UK—much the bigger partner, both economically and in terms of population—to accept Scottish oversight of fiscal policy here? Is it realistic to expect the rest of the UK to risk the need for what most durable currency unions have eventually required, namely fiscal transfers? Is it realistic to expect the rest of the UK to sign up to a currency union that could carry the risk that all those rules, albeit tough rules, would fail, and whose failure would trigger the need for bail-outs? I do not think that such arrangements would be acceptable to the electorate. What is more, I doubt that a majority could be mustered for them in the House of Commons.
Of course, the leaders of both countries might try to get a currency union past their respective Parliaments without fully explaining the consequences, but I am on my feet now because I want to try to prevent that from happening. There would be shades of the eurozone in such an attempt, but it would be a fool’s errand.
A currency union created in such circumstances would, sooner or later, be tested by the markets. Either the rules would be tough enough to bite, or, if they were not tight enough, there might be a bail-out. Alternatively, we might experience both the pain and the bail-out, as happened in the eurozone: we might experience the pain of the bail-out south of the border, and the pain caused by the biting of the rules north of the border.
Not enough attention has been paid to the political consequences of botching these currency arrangements. Whatever the economics of trying to create a currency union, I think that it is bad politics for these islands at this point. The eurozone has provided a reminder not just of the economic difficulties of creating durable currency unions, but of the political damage and fall-out that come with flawed arrangements. We need, above all, to put what Lord Lang, in the other place, described as “the politics of grievance” behind us as we make our efforts to renew the relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK. But it seems to me that a currency union would risk the opposite. As its full implications became clear, it would create the conditions for lasting resentment on both sides of the border, and it is just such resentment that we must do everything possible to avoid in the search for a stable economic and political relationship between those on the two sides of the border.
I urge the Governments on both sides of the border to explain how all the difficulties that I have outlined could be addressed, well before the Scottish referendum. Not to do so would be to deceive our respective electorates into believing that there is some third way, some relatively painless option, enabling the Scots to imagine that they could be fully in control of their own affairs and that the rest of the UK could avoid large contingent obligations. If, as I have concluded, those difficulties cannot be adequately addressed in the current circumstances, the two Governments should rule out a currency union now.
Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)
The next few months will be big ones for Scotland. The decision that Scots will make on 18 September will shape our country, our families, and generations to come. I am proud of the fact that, during the campaign, I will argue loudly for Scotland to remain part of the United Kingdom. I am proud of the part that Scots have played in the success that is the United Kingdom, and proud of the role that the Labour movement has played in that success. I am proud of our achievements over the past 100 years, when we worked together to meet the common challenges that people faced in towns and villages throughout the UK.
When, 70 years ago, people were faced with inadequate health care and opposition from vested interests, it was the Labour movement that thought of, fought for, and created a system of health care for everyone—based on need, not nationality—right across the UK. We did that together. When there was no safety net for people who were out of work, no support for families and children, it was the Labour movement that thought of, fought for, and created the UK-wide welfare state. We did that together. When some workers were paid just £1 or £2 an hour, it was the Labour party that thought of, fought for, and delivered the national minimum wage for everyone, right across the UK. Such has been the impact of the living wage that it is now seen as the expectation, not the exception.
No one in the Labour movement said that we could not do any of that because we were part of the UK. We all did it because we were part of one family in the UK, not because we were competing with each other within the UK. The NHS, the welfare state and the national minimum wage are examples of the real transformative effect that working together across the UK can have.
Those are big examples, because we are a big movement with big ideas: ideas that are bigger than independence will ever be. We have never been a movement that turned its back on others. We have never said “You are on your own.” We have never said “You fight your own fights.” We have always said that we will pool and share our resources for the benefit of all.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
Will the hon. Gentleman give us an idea of his colleagues’ thinking about the extent to which they would agree to allow devo-max, including a greater degree of fiscal autonomy that would fall short of complete independence?
Anas Sarwar
That is an interesting point. The hon. Gentleman, like everyone else, will have to wait for our full devolution commission report, which will be published during our conference in March.
When the Governor of the Bank of England was busy sinking the SNP’s plans for a currency union last week, he was keen to point out that a key ingredient of a successful union was meeting the need to
“mutualise risks and pool fiscal resources.”
That is exactly what we have now: we have a redistributive union, a wealth-sharing union, in which a contribution from all to the common pot enables those most in need to benefit from the common weal.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
I certainly agree with the thrust of my hon. Friend’s comments so far. I was alarmed when I read a tweet allegedly from a leading member of the Yes campaign saying:
“Wouldn’t it be great if @Tesco @Sainsburys @Morrisons @Asda just left Scotland after Yes vote”.
What kind of message does that send to the people who are trying to create productivity and jobs in the braw brave new Scotland?
Anas Sarwar
Given the continuous pursuit of positivity, I must point out that that quote was not from a leading member of the twittersphere but from the communications director of the Yes Scotland campaign. That demonstrates that the positivity exists only on one side of the debate in Scotland.
Corporation tax is a good example of what I have been talking about, because the tax raised not only from Scottish companies but from the biggest businesses across the UK is redistributed across the UK to where it is most needed. Similarly, we all remember when the Royal Bank of Scotland was in trouble and needed bailing out, and taxpayers from across the UK stepped in to help, with no questions asked and no IOUs demanded. We see today the tragic circumstances across parts of England resulting from flood damage. Again, it is taxpayers from across the UK who will pool and share resources to help out, and again with no questions asked or IOUs demanded. There is a recognition that in times of trouble people from across the UK stand shoulder to shoulder. Now, with energy bills going up and the value of wages falling, and with household budgets being squeezed and household incomes not keeping pace with the rate of inflation, the answer is not to turn our back on the rest of the UK but rather to come together as we have always done to tackle our biggest challenges head on.
It is also right that Scots should be in the room when the big decisions that affect them are being taken. When interest rate decisions affecting the cost of Scottish mortgages and car loans are being taken, it is right that Scottish voices should be heard. When the regulation of financial and banking markets—which affects every one of us across the UK—is being agreed, it is also right that Scottish voices should be heard. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with that; there are some whose position is to diminish or mute the voice of Scots and to take us outside the room when decisions are being taken. Do not take my word for that: the SNP’s own Jim Sillars described the proposed currency union this week as “stupidity on stilts”. I am clear that Scots speak louder and do more as part of the UK. We have a can-do attitude, but it is unfortunately not shared by some others.
Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend share my surprise that a Government who have the power to introduce further provisions for child care should decide that they will deal with that only if and when they get the right result in the referendum?
Anas Sarwar
That demonstrates that we have a Government in Scotland who are determined to win women’s votes but not to change women’s lives. That is why we need a Labour Government in this place and in Holyrood.
Some people argue that we can deliver social and economic change only when we have constitutional change, but the truth is very different. The fact is that the big challenges we face in reducing poverty and inequality cannot be put on pause until after September 2014. It is not surprising that the SNP is using the extent of constitutional change as its measure of success. Labour is, and always has been, about so much more. The Labour movement has never argued for the status quo; indeed, it is something we have always fought against. For us, the real measure of success is the extent of economic and social change and the positive impact it has on people’s lives. That is why, for those on either side of this debate, this is a change referendum. We will argue for a strong voice across the UK, and for a strong Scotland within the United Kingdom.
Michael Moore (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (LD)
I congratulate the Backbench Business Committee on allocating the time for this important debate. I also congratulate those who have contributed to it so far; their speeches have been very thoughtful. I hope that we will be able to maintain that tenor throughout the afternoon, although that might be wishful thinking. Everyone who has spoken so far has acknowledged the fact that we have a big moment coming up in a few months’ time. The election in 2011 was transformational, and we are finally focusing on the big choice for Scotland between going it alone and staying part of the most successful family of nations in the world.
It is hardly a surprise that I want Scotland to stay part of the United Kingdom. That desire is based not only on my upbringing and experience in the borders and elsewhere in Scotland but particularly on my experience as Secretary of State for Scotland. It was a great privilege to hold that post, not least because of the people I worked with, including the great team of civil servants, special advisers and others who did an immense amount, even though it was a small team. They helped to produce the Scotland Act 2012, which brought about the biggest transfer of financial powers from this place to Edinburgh since the Act of Union, and supported me in the work that we did on the Edinburgh agreement. It was not just those two moments that were important, however. As Secretary of State, I also had the chance to get out and about and see the fantastic country that we all call home and that we are proud to be from and to represent.
I am thinking of the young woman in Glasgow who had been given an opportunity through the jobcentre and Skills Development Scotland to get some training and to work up a business plan, which she wanted to develop into something big. She had the vision, and she wanted to go for it. I am also thinking of the woman business leader in Fife who had taken her small family agricultural business and, with her family, developed it into a business that operated across the United Kingdom and Europe. Her vision was an expansive and positive one.
I am thinking, too, of the oil and gas sector. For Members representing Aberdeen, and for those on both sides of the House representing the north-east of Scotland, including my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith), that sector is a precious jewel. We argue about the politics involved all the time, but I doubt that we truly appreciate all that it does, and all the highly skilled people working in Aberdeen and the north-east, including those from all our constituencies. They have a great future, but they will also face a big challenge in a few decades’ time, and that is something that we should all be thinking about now. It was a great privilege for me to learn much more about that sector, and to see the opportunities that exist now and that will exist in the future, when the oil and gas are finished.
Travelling all those miles around Scotland over three and a half years reinforced my sense of Scotland’s place in the UK. We have fantastic economic opportunities. That is not just about being part of the huge single market in the UK, or about having a great platform from which to promote our goods and services throughout the world through UK Trade & Investment and other channels; it is also about having the right attitude and approach to connecting with the international business sector.
Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)
Is my right hon. Friend aware of the concern among some businesses that have taken advantage of UK representation around the world that, if Scotland became independent, the UK Foreign Office network would effectively be competing with a Scottish network, rather than acting as an ally working towards achieving economic success?
Michael Moore
That would be a terribly sad situation. Last March, I was part of an energy showcase in Rio de Janeiro, at which Scottish Development International was working in partnership with UKTI and the consulate there to promote Scottish business and Scottish skills on the international stage. We were supporting each other, and we do not want to lose that scale and that ability.
This is not just about opportunity, however. It is also about our resilience. We have already heard references to the banking collapse of a few years ago. The right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), who was Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time, is in his place today, and I am sure that he will say more about this. The fact that we in Scotland had the whole of the UK standing behind us at the time was massively important and gave us the ability to work through those difficult times, the legacy of which is still with us today.
Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the evidence given by the Business Secretary yesterday to the Business, Innovation and Skills Select Committee, in which he said that he thought it likely that RBS would relocate its headquarters to London if Scotland voted for independence?
Michael Moore
My right hon. Friend’s evidence has been well reported, and most people who look sensibly at the options will understand that that is a real possibility—perhaps more: perhaps a probability. The reality is that we have to think through all these issues. We have to think about what we have at the moment that is very special and that might have to be given up if we were to vote for independence.
Apart from the economic issues, which I am sure we will debate at length, we also need to think about our place in the world. Because of our proud record of reaching out to the world, Scots are delighted that we have half of the Department for International Development’s work force and policy makers in Scotland, a few miles from Glasgow in East Kilbride, the constituency of the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann). That is a fantastic place to visit.
There we are—Scotland—punching above our weight internationally, not only through that policy work, but because we are part of a country that is now reaching the United Nations target on international development. We also have greater security, as part of NATO, by being at the top table in the UN Security Council and through so much else. As others have said, this is because we are part of this great family of nations. We may be temporarily divided about the rugby this weekend—we might be hiding under the duvet, depending on what we expect the outcome to be—but we will set aside our differences shortly after.
In my part of the world, in the borders, we understand more than most about the family of nations that we have; the 500-year echo of Flodden that we think about at this moment reminds us of what went before and why we must not let those divisions ever return. I do not want to see that, and I do not believe that most people in Scotland do either. Of course we face challenges, on health, inequality, infrastructure, and transitioning and transforming our economy, but I simply believe that if we use the powers we already have and the new powers that are coming, if we sensibly discuss further powers that might be added to them, on tax, borrowing and employment support, and if we work together across parties, across Scotland and with the rest of the UK, we have a very positive future. We should channel our energies into that, not seek division or separation. I am proud to be Scottish, I am proud to be British and I hope that, together, we can keep this family of nations together.
Mr Jim Hood (Lanark and Hamilton East) (Lab)
My first comment will come as no surprise to any of my colleagues in here, including the Secretary of State and the two former Secretaries of State: it is good to have a debate on Scotland. There is a long list of speakers and people are already complaining about the length of time they are going to be given to participate in the debate, yet both Front-Bench teams deny themselves eight Grand Committees a year to discuss Scotland. Today, the Leader of the House was boasting about being at a Welsh Grand Committee yesterday where he was discussing devolution. I just make that point as I get on to making my contribution—I have got it off my chest, so I can move on.
I wish to make a few points in the four minutes or so remaining to me. First, I wish to discuss membership of the European Union. I was the Chairman of the Select Committee on European Legislation from 1992 to 1998, and of its successor, the European Scrutiny Committee, from 1998 to 2006. For 14 years, I was the Chairman of the Select Committee dealing with European legislation and, in particular during that term of office, enlargement. Along with my Committee colleagues, I scrutinised the applications of Finland, Sweden and Austria, and then the big bang of the accession of the three Baltic states and the seven central European states. I also began the process of dealing with the Romanian and Bulgarian accession—that was six years ago and they have only just joined the European Union fully. So although I have never claimed to be an expert on anything, I do know a little about European legislation.
A lie was told to Andrew Neil in a television interview: that the First Minister from the Scottish Government had legal opinion to back up their having automatic membership of the European Union. That was proved to be a lie, and it is distasteful that this important debate is wasted by that sort of atmosphere. This place is about debating and democracy, and has been for centuries. Surely this is a debate on the merits of what the proposition is, and not a debate based on the quality of propaganda. Propaganda is not about political debate; it is about selling a pup. There is a pup for sale in my country and in my constituency, and I am strongly against it.
I know that the Scottish National party is lying about Europe, as it is about pensions and welfare, and about keeping the pound. Even if the SNP was right and there was a grand, great thing at the end of the rainbow for the SNP and its debate for independence, I would still be against it. If the Scottish people are going to be better off economically and so on, I would still be against breaking away from the Union. That is part of my history. I was proud to be born into a mining family in a mining community, where it was not about self-betterment, and where judgments are not made about people on the basis of which side of the road or of the bed they were born on.
Katy Clark
I very much welcome my hon. Friend’s comment that his views are not based on whether individual Scots would be better or worse off. Does he agree that many Labour Members have a bigger vision which is about the whole of the country and redistribution within it, and that we need to see real distribution to all the poorer areas in this country?
Mr Hood
Well, of course. Wherever we see poverty, we have empathy with those who are suffering it. As we have heard said many times, poverty is just as important to us if it is by the River Thames or the River Clyde. That has always been the case. [Interruption.] I hear what is being muttered behind me and I will try not to be put off—I am becoming a bit used to it.
Thirty years ago, on 5 March, I was proud to be involved in the miner’s strike, fighting for my community, for my campaign and for my values and mining community values. We were fighting against a lying Westminster Government then, and I am fighting against a lying Government now in the Scottish Parliament. In 30 years’ time, when somebody asks what I was doing in 2014 and which side I was on, my grandchildren will be able to say, “He was on the side of Scotland, and he opposed devolution and—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. Time is up, unfortunately, much as I wanted to hear more. I call Rory Stewart.
Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)
Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker.
One thousand nine hundred years ago, Rome divided Britain with a wall. Britain is an island whose natural boundaries are the sea, and this wall split families and split tribes. Ever since that moment we have been debating this issue. These two fundamental principles for Britain are what we are debating today. They are in competition: are we divided nation against nation, or are we unified by culture and language? There is only one answer to that question, and it cannot be simply economics. If a relationship is going wrong—if a marriage is going wrong—the answer cannot simply be to say, ‘You can’t afford to break up because you are going to lose the house.” The answer has to be only one thing, which is, “I love you.” We in this House are struggling to express the nature of our love for Scotland. We are not very good, as politicians, at talking about emotions. We have become very bad at it, but we need to learn to do it, because otherwise a party that is trying to reduce, to shrink, to vanish will win.
What do we mean when we say, “I, as a Member of Parliament for an English constituency, love Scotland”? It would be personal to every single one of us. It could be that we love intellectual seriousness. I was paddling along in a canoe with the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) a few months ago, and I would really miss him from that canoe. People in the United Kingdom would miss Scotland for different personal reasons—Scotland’s egalitarianism, its intellectual seriousness, its sense of realism and its sense of humour. I would be very ashamed and embarrassed to be part of a country that did not have Scottish Members of Parliament here.
Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman is an expert in foreign affairs. Can he tell the House how much stronger Scotland would be as an independent country in relation to the world?
Rory Stewart
There are two answers to that question. First, Scotland must of course embrace the potential of being part of the United Kingdom in foreign affairs. Secondly, the hon. Gentleman himself represents what is good about our political settlement. He sits on the Foreign Affairs Committee, so there is a Scottish voice on that Committee raising Scottish issues again and again, forcing us to focus on Scottish issues when we think about foreign policy, and that is something that we would deeply miss.
There is a great appeal to Scottish nationalism. We all feel it in our gut, and it is because the world is bewildering. People are angry. Some 85% of people in this country feel that politics is broken and 87% feel that society is broken. Our voters feel that Westminster is out of touch and that their lives have never been so complicated. Those are real feelings that we have to acknowledge and accept. But the answer to those problems is not to get smaller. When we face complexity and things that are bewildering in our everyday lives—when we feel angry or disappointed—the answer is not to get smaller, shut the door and pretend that we can shut those things out. The answer is to expand.
I have three suggestions on the lessons that we need to learn from Scottish nationalism. The first lesson is that it is not that Westminster is too far away: it is also that Edinburgh is too far away. The answer to the problems of our communities is to represent the issues of Argyll separately from the issues of Perthshire and the issues of the Borders. They are not the same issues. One of the great weaknesses in England, Ireland, Wales and Scotland is the lack of real localism. Whether talking to someone in Muthill struggling with planning or someone in Kelso worried about economic development in their area, we need to learn from Mitterrand in France in 1983—hyper-localism and mayors at a local level—and not try to fool the Scottish people by pretending that transferring power from Westminster to Holyrood will solve those human problems.
The second thing that we need to do—and this is true for the north of England as much as for Scotland—is not to pretend that London and the south of England do not exist. We need to accept that they exist, that they are a challenge, that they have huge potential, and that we need to make them work for us, not pretend that they are not there.
The third thing is cultural links. It is a tragedy that the educational policy of the Scottish National party has made it more difficult for English students to study in Scottish universities and for Scottish students to study in English universities. We must reinforce the cultural links.
Finally, what we need is the human expression. On 19 July this year, I hope that 100,000 people will gather along that old Roman wall—English, Welsh, Irish and Scots—holding hands and linking arms across the border. Because in the end what matters is not the wall that divides us but the human ties that bind us in the name of love.
Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), who is a fellow member of the Foreign Affairs Committee. I hope his wish to get all those people to the border is fulfilled, and I would certainly be pleased to be there on the day.
Next September, we Scots will take one of the most important decisions in the history of Scotland and of the UK as a whole—whether to stay in the UK or walk away to become a separate state. It is extremely important—we owe it to all the people of the UK, especially Scots—that this debate is conducted in a measured, respectful and positive manner, and is informed by proper analysis rather than the name calling that has been all too common until now. This has been an affront to the people of Scotland and does nothing for the case of those involved in that puerile bullying and infantile behaviour.
On whichever side of the argument we fall, or even if we have yet to decide, we should go forward on the basis of what we believe is best for Scotland, not necessarily just for the generation represented in the Chamber today, but for our children and grandchildren and those who will follow them. That does not mean that the debate should not be robust, however. The fact is that Scottish people in general do not subscribe to the idea of “knowing your place”, and I would argue that Scots have punched well above their weight as part of the UK and internationally in many different fields, and that continues today.
In that regard, I congratulate Sir Tom Hunter not only on the success he has achieved as a New Cumnock lad, but on what he gives back. He certainly has not forgotten where he came from, as local people will tell you, but he is also to be congratulated on his initiative to provide a forum for people to ask questions and get the answers they need to help them make this important decision about the future of their country.
We need answers to the difficult questions. The more that is asked about the consequences of separation, the more we get talk of
“shared responsibility with the rest of the UK”,
the best example recently being the SNP’s plan for a sterling union. Leaving aside the fact that it takes two to tango, it is yet another proposal that is unravelling. Once it was to be the Scots pound, then the euro, now sterling, but maybe it should be the Scots pound. Even Jim Sillars, erstwhile deputy leader of the SNP, has dismissed a currency union as “stupidity on stilts”.
Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)
I support everything that the hon. Lady has said. Does she recall that James VI of Scotland, who became James I of the United Kingdom, called for a new currency, to be called the unite?
Sandra Osborne
I am a proud member of Unite the Union, but the hon. Gentleman’s Scottish history is obviously much better than mine.
As I was saying, Mr Sillars is well known in Ayrshire for changing his mind—sometimes he does not seem to know which party he is in or whether he is for devolution, for separation or for staying with the UK.
The First Minister seems to be leading a campaign with the slogan “Don't frighten the horses” and suggesting that nothing is really going to change. When we do get any policy promises, such as the child care initiative outlined in the White Paper, we find that nationalists are proposing something that could be delivered right now under the powers of devolution. Instead, in a cynical attempt to win women’s votes, child care is offered as a bribe to vote yes. Well, Scottish women are not so easily fooled.
We in Ayrshire have a special regard for Keir Hardie as one of the great Scots of the Labour movement. Keir Hardie believed in devolution, but in the context of promoting social justice across the whole of the UK. He started the Scottish Labour party and the British Labour Party, and he helped build trade unionism in Scotland and in Britain. He was an internationalist in outlook, and an MP for a Welsh and then an English constituency. Look at the Scots who followed in his footsteps, like John Wheatley, Tom Johnston and Willie Ross—another of Ayrshire’s own. They all made a tremendous contribution to Scotland but did so from within the UK Cabinet. That is not to mention Scottish influence in the last Labour Government and indeed the present shadow Cabinet.
We have no desire to “know our place” in any deferential sense, or even to be content to be a junior partner—Scots are not a subjugated people. We have been free to choose independence since universal suffrage almost 100 years ago. Instead, Scots have positively chosen in election after election to remain a partner in the United Kingdom, and I believe that will be their choice in the referendum vote in September.
Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne) and I congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) on securing this debate and the Backbench Business Committee on recognising the importance of addressing this issue.
I want to take a positive approach to Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom. It has played a dynamic role and it is one that has evolved. With 300 years of common history, we have still got our distinctive legal system, our distinctive education system, our national identity, and we have recreated our own Parliament to deal with those issues that directly affect us in our lives in Scotland, so we do, as the slogan says, get the best of both worlds: a say in those decisions that affect us that are taken at the UK level, and a say in those decisions that affect us directly in Scotland in the Scottish Parliament.
In putting the positive case for voting no, I return to what the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) said, and point out that the best and simplest way of keeping the pound sterling is to remain part of the UK. That is most easily achieved by voting no in the referendum. It gives us a say in how our currency is managed and it keeps us part of a borderless fully internal market, with a more diversified economy. The banking crisis reminded us that Scotland’s heavy dependency on the financial services sector—a great achievement by many people working in that sector—presents a challenge when it goes wrong. It was the rest of the UK’s economy and diversification that helped to sustain us through that crisis.
The oil and gas industry is also a great success story in Scotland, as the former Secretary of State my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (Michael Moore) mentioned. It is a great technical achievement and there are a lot of people with a lot of skills and the work they do has a lot of export potential. It is also a very unstable source of revenue to the economy, however, because it depends on the global oil price. When the price is high, the economy does well. When the price is low, being part of a larger economy, when other parts of the economy can benefit from the low oil price, gives the ability to transfer resources and sustain the economy. The UK’s diversified economy also allows us to come up with tax incentives to stimulate exploration, forgoing cash flow now for long-term benefits.
Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)
The hon. Gentleman talks about being part of a larger economy. Norway is not part of a larger economy. Is he suggesting it is not successful with its oil and gas and its general economy?
Sir Robert Smith
Norway is far more dominated by the oil and gas sector and has a successful economy, but if there is a downturn in the oil price Scotland does not have the economic resources and reserves to take that hit, yet we have the benefit of being part of a wider, dynamic, more diversified UK economy—and we will be, too, when the oil eventually runs out.
As has been mentioned, we also have access to a global network of embassies and trade missions that work positively to benefit Scotland and promote Scottish trade and investment in Scotland. We will continue to enjoy that positive benefit if we vote no in the referendum.
As has been highlighted in recent speeches, the business community does not have a vote in the referendum. The referendum is for the people of Scotland to decide Scotland’s future. It is one person, one vote and it is up to the people of Scotland to make that decision, but they are entitled to know the concerns of business. We want to hear the voices of business. Yes they cannot tell people how to vote, and yes they cannot dictate the result of the referendum, but if they remain silent and then quietly implement what they plan to do in the event of a yes vote in the referendum, the people of Scotland will have voted for a future without knowing the consequences and being able to take that on board. It is therefore extremely important that the business voices have the courage to speak up and inform the debate so people can make a clear and decisive choice in the referendum.
Sir Gerald Howarth
Having talked to some businessmen in Scotland, I have discovered there is a feeling of nervousness on their part. They feel that if they were to put their heads above the parapet and express a view in favour of the Union, they might get picked on and discriminated against by the SNP.
Sir Robert Smith
There is an undercurrent of a bullying culture in respect of some of the voices that come forward in this debate, but I notice that people of the level of Bob Dudley, who is high up the pecking order, are less easily bullied. That is an important point, however, and I hope the fact that these voices are coming forward will encourage others to speak up. Businesses do not, of course, want to fall out with customers and their work force, but they can put their concerns in a way that says, in effect, “It’s up to you how you vote, but we have this concern and the consequence of voting that way is that there will be the following implications for our business, and you need to take that into account.”
With a yes vote, there is no turning back. It is not an experiment. The message that must go out to the people of Scotland is that if they vote yes it is for life, so they need to be very confident and certain about their decision. A no vote is a positive vote for the benefits of Scotland as part of the United Kingdom, with the best of both worlds. We are better together and I urge people to vote no in the referendum.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith), and may I congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) on ensuring we have this important, but all too short, debate today? May I also say to hon. Members that I will not be taking any interventions? Members of the other parties will get 90% of the time so it is only fair to the people watching this debate that they get the opportunity to hear from the other side.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Can you confirm that next Tuesday the SNP is in control of Opposition business in this House and that it has not tabled a motion to discuss independence for Scotland?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. That matter is on the record and certainly does not need my confirmation.
Pete Wishart
What a chance; what an opportunity: on 18 September this year we can make the choice to become a self-governing nation once again—to walk tall in the world with national self-respect and dignity like all other normal independent nations do, being responsible for ourselves and blaming no one else for our setbacks. The most exciting thing for me is that our independence will release and ignite a tsunami of energy, creativity and imagination as we get down to the business of building and creating our new independent nation—a new nation according to our Scottish priorities, built on our sense of community, always securing the Government we vote for, pursuing the agenda we want.
We will run an independent Scotland better than the Westminster Tories because of one key and very important fact: we care more about Scotland than the Westminster Tories do—of course we do, and that is why we will run it better. Never again will we have a Tory Government without our democratic consent. We want no more picking on our vulnerable; no more obscenities such as the bedroom tax; no more of Labour’s illegal wars and no more Tory or Labour weapons of mass destruction defiling our beautiful country—[Interruption.]
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. Can I have a bit of calm? In fairness, it has been a good-hearted debate so far, and I know that no one wants to spoil the harmony of the House.
Pete Wishart
We will ease pretty seamlessly into a new independent status. The day after we secure a new nation, it will be pretty much like the day before, but something remarkable will have happened. All of a sudden, the country will be ours to shape and to determine. If things do not work out, we can change them. We can change them because we have the power of independence. For the first time in 300 years, our nation will belong to us, and nothing could be more exciting and transformative.
It is all down to this choice. If we vote no, we are accepting that this is as good as it gets. This is what we have to settle for. It signals a contentment with Westminster rule and Westminster politicians’ ability to deliver for Scotland.
Pete Wishart
I do indeed remember that, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing that up because it happened in my constituency. In Perthshire, we have long memories when it comes to these issues.
If we vote no, we will be saying that we approve of Westminster government and whatever future the rest of the UK decides for us. Well, I do not like where the UK is going.
Pete Wishart
I am not giving way. I do not like where the UK is going at all. I do not have much time, so I will mention just two examples. The first was last week’s appalling Immigration Bill, which would charge visitors to our country fees for health care and turn those who rent houses in the private-rented sector into immigration officers. It is a nasty, pernicious and rotten Bill that is designed to counter the threat of the UK Independence party. We do not do UKIP in Scotland; we barely do Tory. We have a national treasure on the Front Benches; our one and only Tory Member. None the less, we will get that Bill, because this Government took it through on a Labour abstention. I object to my country being dragged into this monstrous race to the bottom between this Government and UKIP about who can be the hardest on those who might want to come and live in my country. Scotland is better than that, yet the Bill was passed. It was passed on the same day as the House of Lords debated our country. I do not know whether you saw that, Mr Deputy Speaker. That bloated, unelected Chamber stuffed full of party placement cronies and donors had the audacity to tell our nation what it should do. Then it also had the effrontery to defile the memory of our war dead and insult the many brave veterans who have served this country with distinction just because they happened to support independence for our nation. One thing we will get with independence is the ability to wipe away that ermine-wearing unelected Chamber from the face of Scottish public life, and our nation will be much better for that. Scotland is so much better than that.
We know that if we gain control of our own resources and secure all the necessary powers, there is nothing stopping us becoming an economic powerhouse, and that is what we look forward to.
Sir Robert Smith
The hon. Gentleman is putting an emotional case for independence, but he is not taking on board the wise words of the Governor of the Bank of England who talked about the illusion of independence if an independent Scotland keeps the pound sterling. The voice of Scotland will be taken away from the decisions that will affect its very core monetary policy.
Pete Wishart
I have had enough of that “You cannae do that stuff”, so I thank the hon. Gentleman. We have a decision to take. It is a choice between negativity and positivity—[Interruption.]
Mr Deputy Speaker
Order. I want to hear the hon. Gentleman. It is not fair that you are enjoying yourselves. I want to hear the speech.
Pete Wishart
We have listened to their speeches with as much respect as possible, but we are shouted down. It seems impossible for Members to listen to the other side of the debate. I do not know why this place thinks that that is attractive. It is a choice between negativity and positivity. No European country has done what we are about to do. As an exercise in democracy, this is huge. This is Scotland’s great choice, because it is a choice between two very different and distinct futures. We can decide that this is as good as it gets, or we can decide to do something much better—to take control of ourselves and to put the nation in the hands of the Scottish people. If we get this chance, this once-in-a-generation chance, we will vote for the positive, because positive beats negative. What a prize there will be when we vote yes in overwhelming numbers. When we go to the polls in September, we will vote ‘yes’. What a prize there will be—a country of our own.
Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)
I am honoured to have the opportunity to contribute to this important debate. I start by congratulating the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) on securing the discussion today. Like the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), I want to make principally an emotional argument. My birthday is on 18 September, and I want to celebrate it—hopefully for many years to come—with a glass or two of a good single malt and a celebration of my country. I do not want it to be a permanent reminder of the day that my country was lost. My nationality is British and my country is the United Kingdom. I want to speak up for my constituents and everyone on both sides of the border who feel the same.
Iain Stewart
I have a great affection for the hon. Gentleman so I will give way.
Mr MacNeil
What sort of birthday present does the hon. Gentleman think the people of Scotland would like to give a Tory MP on 18 September?
Iain Stewart
There are some very good distilleries, and I have a taste for the water of life, so I would be happy to send the hon. Gentleman a list. Perhaps he will buy me one on the day.
We have more than 300 years of a forged special identity. That does not diminish the importance, the history or the culture of the constituent parts of the United Kingdom. Initially, it is like a marriage, in which two separate families come together. Over the centuries, those two families forge something unique together, and a shared identity comes about. Something special is created whether it is through triumph, disaster, adversity or opportunity. We dismantle that at our peril.
My second point is what I see as a fundamental flaw at the heart of the Scottish National party’s position. It is not a proposal I agree with, but there is a logical coherence to the argument that Scotland, as a separate nation, should become independent and a master of its own destiny with the ability to shape its own future, as the hon. Gentleman has set out. Quite apart from the huge emotional costs that would have to be paid, there are many uncertainties and other costs that would flow. None the less, I understand the emotional appeal and the logic that goes behind it. What is not logical is to go through all that pain, cost and uncertainty only to argue that nothing would change for this new separate, independent sovereign country. The hon. Gentleman admitted it himself. He said that the day after would be the same. Why go through all that, particularly on the point of currency union, which has been the subject of much discussion? I do not often agree with Jim Sillars, a former Member of this House, former deputy leader of the SNP and one-time ally of the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire, but his article in the Sunday Times last weekend was spot on. He said that
“a currency per se, like sterling, is a badge of sovereignty printed by a sovereign government”
and that will be the badge of the United Kingdom.
He went on to argue that
“you don’t pool sovereignty, you transfer it and lose it.”
That is what would happen in a separate Scotland according to the SNP’s argument.
Should independence happen, Scotland, England and the rest of the United Kingdom would survive. I do not subscribe to the theory that we would be reduced to an economic wasteland, but I believe we would all be poorer. Time does not permit me to go into all the arguments about the practicalities, but the strength of the Union is greater than the sum of its parts. If we split up, we are all diminished.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
May I point out that the influence of Scotland is enormous? There are three Stewarts on the Government Benches today and there is a Douglas behind me. Scotland has huge influence in the United Kingdom and should remain in the United Kingdom.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I think there may be a question there.
Iain Stewart
My fellow clansman puts the point eloquently. Scotland punches above her weight in the United Kingdom. England punches above her weight by being part of the United Kingdom. Be it in international affairs, defence or economic clout, we are stronger together.
Devolution is a dynamic process and I think that was always the intention when the Scotland Act 1998 was passed. In 2012 we passed a further Scotland Act, which contains a substantial transfer of powers, principally fiscal powers, from this place to Holyrood. That transfer has huge implications, particularly for businesses in Scotland as they adjust to the new fiscal arrangements. I support that, as it makes Holyrood responsible for more of the money it spends. It finds as much of a welcome in my constituency in England as I know it does in Scotland. Surely the sensible thing to do is let that major change happen and bed down before we see whether there are further practical changes that can be introduced so that we have the optimal arrangement between Scotland, England and the rest of the United Kingdom, rather than gambling on the one-way ticket to uncertainty that a yes vote on 18 September would represent.
Let me conclude by returning to my principal point. Whatever the economic, strategic or practical arguments about Scotland’s remaining part of the United Kingdom, for me the principal point is emotional. This is my country. I will not rest until we see a no vote on 18 September. I do not want to swap my country for dual citizenship or whatever other arrangements come about. I am British, I want to stay British and I will fight with every fibre of my body to keep us British.
Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow such a thoughtful and emotional contribution from the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart).
I want to talk about the reasons why Scotland is stronger when we pool and share our resources as a United Kingdom, but let me start by outlining what I believe to be the three main elements of the debate on the streets of Scotland. First, it is about the things that we know will change. Secondly, it is about the things that would not change. Thirdly, it is about the issues that would require negotiation. It has become apparent that there is a nationalist plan to move as many items as possible from the negotiation box into the box for things that would not change: the pound, membership of the European Union and membership of NATO, to name just three. It is pretty clear that the motivation for that move is to create an atmosphere in which people in Scotland feel that separation is not a risk. I hope that the yes campaign will change its strategy and tactics because a victory based on a deceit would be no victory at all.
We also know that many people have stepped in to make their views known, most notably and recently the Governor of the Bank of England. I hope that people will continue to do so without fear and will make positive contributions to the argument on both sides, but I must place on record my concern that the apparatus of the state is being abused by those in power. The White Paper, which I have in my hand—Members will be delighted to know that it is not my speech—was billed as the document that would answer all the questions on independence, but it does not. Sir Peter Housden, the permanent secretary to the Scottish Government, must explain why taxpayers’ money was used to create and issue that document. The Secretary of State, the Cabinet Office and the head of the civil service should explain why they have maintained their silence while the impartiality of the civil service has been compromised.
Let me give just two examples. On page 37, the White Paper states:
“The Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government in Edinburgh are responsible for a range of ‘devolved’ matters”
before going on to list them. It then states:
“The Westminster Government—currently a coalition of the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties—and the Westminster Parliament have ‘reserved’ responsibilities”
before going on to name those rights. What can we take from those two statements? There is no mention of the United Kingdom Parliament and it refers to a Westminster Parliament and Westminster Government that do not exist. It is factually incorrect, so why did civil servants allow the document to be released and published at the taxpayers’ expense?
It does not end there. Each page is filled with similar partisan comments that belie the Scottish Government’s position that the document was designed to illuminate. One example really makes my blood boil, and it was mentioned a few moments ago by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart). Page 13 is entitled “Gains from independence” and states:
“Abolition of the ‘bedroom tax’ which will save 82,500 households in Scotland—including 63,500 households with a disabled adult and 15,500 households with children—an average of £50 per month”.
What could be more despicable and reprehensible than preying on the fears and concerns of the most vulnerable people in Scotland? That statement and the words of SNP Ministers on the issue were designed to create the impression that the Scottish Parliament could not remove the tax without independence. This week, by their own actions, they have confirmed that as a deceit.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech, not just dissecting the White Paper as what it is, a work of fiction, but saying that the Scottish Government’s current powers can be used in such a way. Does he think that the people of Scotland will be asking serious questions of the SNP Government about why they have waited more than 12 months to abolish the bedroom tax in Scotland?
Mr McCann
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. There are many more examples and each page of the document is filled with similar deceits. It is not fair on the people of Scotland, who should be relying on informative documents from the Scottish Government to inform the decision they will have to take on 18 September.
Scotland is part of the most successful political and economic union that the world has ever seen, as has been mentioned by other hon. Members.
Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)
Is it not also the case that the UK has not been invaded by a foreign body for more than 750 years? Surely that in itself demonstrates just how successful the Union has been.
Mr McCann
I will defer to my hon. Friend on the amount of time, given that he was probably there for most of it. He is absolutely correct.
If people vote no in the referendum, they can wake up on 19 September knowing that they will keep the pound, that the United Kingdom will remain a member of NATO and that we will retain our EU membership. They will know that brave men and women, a lot of them Scots, are looking after our national security and much more. They will know that those matters will not be subject to negotiation.
There is one more crucial point. The United Kingdom is successful because we pool and share resources. Money earned in more prosperous parts of the United Kingdom can be shared with areas that have fewer resources and, as history tells us, areas of wealth are not always fixed. The size, depth and sheer diversity of the United Kingdom mean that we will always have sources of wealth for redistribution, even when certain natural resources cease to exist. Our ability to pool and share our resources, coupled with the certainty of currency and international agreements to which we are party, insulates us as a United Kingdom in ways with which smaller nations cannot possibly compete.
There is a human element too. I was a trade union official, elected and full time for 26 years of my career, and I have worked with colleagues and friends across the United Kingdom. Walking down a street in London, Darlington, Cardiff or Belfast is, apart from the accent, no different from walking down the streets of Glasgow, because people have the same problems. We share much more than currency and membership of international agreements. We share a history, and we share the same hopes and aspirations for future generations. Last night, there was an addition to the McCann family. My niece Maria had an 8 lb 4 oz baby boy in Wishaw general hospital. Members will be delighted to know that mother and child are doing well. I hope that that child gets the same chance to grow up in the United Kingdom as I have had.
Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)
I am delighted to follow the powerful contribution made by the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann). I am sure that I speak on behalf of the whole House when I congratulate him on the addition to his family.
Much of the debate has been on the forthcoming referendum and has centred on the economic issues, which are a bit clinical. Bob Dudley’s warning that BP would question future investment in a foreign country called Scotland will surely not be the last such intervention. The Business Secretary’s statement that the Royal Bank of Scotland would move its headquarters to the place where it is regulated will doubtless be followed by others. The Governor of the Bank of England has warned of the consequences of secession. It would not be in Alex Salmond’s gift to decide whether an independent Scotland could keep the pound, a case that was strongly and brilliantly made by my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie), so I will not repeat it.
Defence is another critical area. The defence industry in Scotland employs 12,600 people, many in the Clyde shipyards and in Rosyth, where the largest warships ever built in this kingdom, the Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers, are being assembled. Under Article 346 of the European treaty, the British Government are not required to put out to tender across the EU any contract for defence equipment. In a separate Scotland, all that would be lost.
Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is aware that since the second world war, the MOD has never placed a contract for any defence ship anywhere other than in the UK. If Scotland is no longer part of the UK, obviously it will not get those contracts.
Sir Gerald Howarth
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and it is terribly important that the people of Scotland understand the significance of defence in this debate. I am grateful to him for his contribution.
There is also the strategic risk to the rest of the United Kingdom if the defence of our northern borders were to be entrusted to a foreign country, not to mention the ludicrous situation regarding the UK’s critical nuclear deterrent, which would have to be removed from Scotland at massive expense and huge danger to the whole of the current United Kingdom.
But these are all matters of the head; like my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) I want to address matters of the heart. My father was born in Lancashire, but my mother was a Douglas, the daughter of a Scottish Border farmer, himself a Border Reiver. I am a product of the Union and I am intensely proud of it. I do care about Scotland, even if I do not have a Scottish accent. My closest relatives have farmed that magnificent rolling border country for centuries, and are doing so today as we debate this issue. My uncles, together with MOD representatives from the Northumberland side, defined the border between England and Scotland along the Cheviot in the 1950s. My uncle played flanker for Hawick, two of my cousins played for Jedforest, and my second cousin, the late W. I. D. Elliot, was hailed by The Daily Telegraph as the greatest post-war Scottish rugby player, with 29 caps for Scotland. This is no foreign country; this is where a large part of my soul resides. When I cross the border back into Scotland, I think of the words of Sir Walter Scott:
“Breathes there the man, with soul so dead,
Who never to himself hath said,
This is my own, my native land!”
I trace my roots to nowhere else but the soil of this United Kingdom and the Scottish Borders is where half my soul resides.
Let us be in no doubt, as the noble Baroness Liddell said during an excellent debate led by my noble Friend Lord Lang of Monkton in another place last week—sadly, not properly covered, of course, by our newspapers—the SNP has filed for divorce. It wants to end 300 years of a mighty and successful partnership, a partnership to which Scotland has contributed a huge amount: the market economist Adam Smith; Alexander Graham Bell who gave us the telephone; John Logie Baird, inventor of the television; Alexander Fleming who discovered penicillin, James Wilson from Hawick who founded the Standard Chartered bank for which I worked; Air Chief Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding who famously commanded RAF Fighter Command during the Battle of Britain—all Scots who enriched this kingdom—and today, Sir Alex Ferguson, possibly the greatest football manager of all time, J.K. Rowling, Sir Chris Hoy, Andy Murray and the rest.
That one man’s personal vanity should drive the campaign to put asunder that which has endured for centuries amounts to constitutional vandalism. We have worked together, played together and fought for freedom together. My uncles fought in the second world war to retain the freedoms of these islands. If this divorce were to happen, Scotland’s influence would be virtually zero.
Ian Paisley
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that a division in this wonderful Union would have an unsettling and unnerving effect and get the tails up of Irish republicans in my part of the kingdom and drive another wedge into the hearts and souls of people in Ulster?
Sir Gerald Howarth
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to make that analogy and to point to the unforeseen consequences to which the Scottish National party does not wish to draw attention. I entirely support him.
In this divorce court, of course the judges will be those of whatever nationality reside in Scotland. The 800,000 Scots living in England have been disfranchised and can only watch helplessly as others determine the fate of the land of their birth: people such as Captain Eric “Winkle” Brown, Royal Navy, who has flown more aircraft types than anyone else on this planet, who has done more ship deck landings than anyone else—2,500—and who interrogated Hermann Goering in German after the war. Brought up in the borders in Melrose, Eric, who helped to save us from Nazi domination, will have no vote because he does not reside in Scotland. Nor will those Scots living and working overseas, contributing to the prosperity of this our kingdom. Are we then all to have separate passports? Will I and my family on the other side of the border have to have separate passports? Are we to be divided in this way? This is monstrous.
So, to those in Scotland, whether born there or of other nationality, to whom has been granted the exclusive privilege of deciding the destiny of this, our United Kingdom, I say, “Please vote to retain the unity of the kingdom in which Scotland plays such a proud and distinguished part.” It would be a tragedy if families across the kingdom were to be divided in the way the separatists are demanding.
Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)
I add my own congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) on securing this important debate on Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom.
One way or another, 2014 will be the year that Scots will remember. In seven months’ time the Scottish people will vote to decide either to continue 300 years of partnership and shared prosperity, or to go it alone as a separate state. Unlike some, I did not get into politics to obsess over the constitution. I would rather be talking about how to build a better Scotland, a better Britain and a better world. I am just as appalled by poverty in Birmingham, Liverpool and West Ham, as I am in Broxburn, Livingston and West Calder in my own constituency. I would rather the Scottish Government were focused on their day job of improving the lives of ordinary Scots than on abusing public resources to promote an SNP agenda.
By pooling and sharing our resources, Scots have contributed to one of the most successful and prosperous political unions the world has ever seen. But whereas there is little doubt that Scotland could be an independent country, the question the Scottish people will have to consider is whether Scotland will be better off by going it alone. My view is that Scotland would not, and there is a range of positive reasons why I believe that we are all better together. Scotland is linked intrinsically to the rest of United Kingdom, socially, politically and economically.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
It is important to point out that Scotland is linked not only to England, but to Wales and Northern Ireland, because there are strong bonds across all the countries. Those of us who are from those areas must send out a strong message to our Scottish fellow citizens that we cherish the fact that they are part of the United Kingdom and want them to remain as such. It is important that, without interfering in the democratic vote, we send out that positive message.
Graeme Morrice
I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s intervention and fully understand that there are major cultural links between the people of Scotland and the people of Northern Ireland. Indeed, I have many friends and relatives from Northern Ireland.
The single market within the UK affords significant economic, trade and employment opportunities to people on both sides of the border, and our membership of the European Union, through the United Kingdom, provides a vast marketplace for Scottish exporters. Together, we have a place at the top table of the European Council of Ministers, we are one of the G8 forum of the world’s largest economies and we are a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, all of which allows us to wield unprecedented influence on the European and global stages. As a member of NATO, we have collectively benefited since the war from international security and defence co-operation on a grand scale.
When it comes to the economy, Scotland has a very important relationship with the rest of the United Kingdom. Scotland benefits from access to a market comprising tens of millions of people within a single jurisdiction. Scots are employed by firms based in the rest of the UK, and people in the rest of the UK benefit from employment opportunities with Scottish-based companies. Indeed, Scotland’s exports to the rest of the UK are worth double its exports to the rest of the world.
Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that upon independence the border would become a barrier to business with the rest of the UK?
Graeme Morrice
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. On day one of independence, were Scots to vote for it, the rest of the United Kingdom would remain within the European Union but Scotland would not, so it clearly would not benefit from the EU single market, to the great detriment of Scottish business and Scotland overall.
Mr Deputy Speaker—[Interruption.] Welcome, Madam Deputy Speaker; it is great to see a Scot in the Chair this afternoon. [Interruption.] And a woman, my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell) reminds me.
In addition to the shared opportunities, the pooling of resources across the UK allows risk as well as reward to be spread, as seen most notably in the bail-out of the Scottish-based banks during the financial crisis, when the UK, led by a Scot, injected an amount of capital into the banks well in excess of the Scottish Government’s total budget. The pooling of resources also allows for distribution on the basis of social need across the welfare state. Were Scotland outwith the UK, that would place a major question mark over its ability to continue to fund benefits at current levels and to meet state and public sector pension commitments.
Of course, Scotland has its own devolved Parliament, with significantly more powers to come as a result of the Calman commission and the Scotland Act 2012. It can therefore be argued that Scotland has the best of both worlds: local decision making, but under the financial umbrella of the UK Barnett formula, giving Scots more funding per capita than anywhere else in the UK.
Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab)
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and for making a very positive case. Will he remind the House why the Barnett formula was introduced and why the additional funding per capita goes to Scots in what is a relatively small country?
Graeme Morrice
Scotland benefits disproportionately from the Barnett formula to the tune of £1,400 per capita because of rurality, super sparsity and Scotland’s particular needs, so my hon. Friend’s point is well made.
Since 2011 we have been told that the answer to every question the Scottish people have ever asked about independence would be in the Scottish Government’s White Paper. Given Alex Salmond’s recent statements, I was half expecting next week’s lottery numbers to appear in its pages, too. The Scottish people were promised the New Testament but instead had to settle for the SNP’s next election manifesto. The truth is that Alex Salmond simply cannot guarantee many of the White Paper’s promises and has completely failed to answer many of the legitimate questions that have been asked of the yes campaign. The Scottish Government could deliver more with the powers they already have, but they choose partisan dividing lines, rather than improving the lives of the Scottish people.
On 18 September the Scottish people will have a choice: either to support the continuation of Scotland within the UK, and all the advantages and benefits that involves, with a further strengthening of devolution; or to take a leap into the unknown, never to return.
John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con)
I am delighted to have an opportunity to speak in this debate, and to speak not just as a Member of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, but as the Member for Carlisle— the city at the very centre of the UK and situated on the English-Scottish border—and, of course, as a Scot.
Scotland is one part of the United Kingdom, and that United Kingdom, of which Scotland is a part, has been hugely successful over the past 300 years. Indeed, I suggest that not only do we live in a Union that has a number of different parts, but the whole is much greater than the sum of those parts. The United Kingdom, as one nation, is far superior and far more successful than two or more separate entities would be. That is why it is in the interests of all of us to remain part of a United Kingdom.
We live in a nation that has been, and is, hugely successful—economically, socially and politically. We live in a wealthy, prosperous and stable country, a country that respects the individual and upholds the rule of law. We live in a country with a comprehensive education system, a health service that is free at the point of use and a standard of living that is the envy of much of the world. Scotland is a part of that. Indeed, Scotland has made a very valuable and substantial contribution to the success of the United Kingdom. It has helped create the prosperity we all enjoy, and it continues to do so.
However, in less than eight months’ time this most successful of unions could start to fracture and come apart. It is my view—a view shared by many in this House—that a move to independence would not be in the interests of Scotland or the people of Scotland. In fact, I believe that it would also be detrimental to the remaining parts of the UK and, if I may be more parochial, that it would be against the best interests of the people of my constituency and the surrounding area, both north and south of the border.
On a recent programme a commentator suggested that the debate on independence was one between the accountants and the poets. That is the “hearts and minds” argument. I do not subscribe to the argument that it is one or the other—that it is a debate between those concerned only about the financial and economic implications and those who believe in a more romantic attraction to the idea of independence. Scotland’s continuing place within the United Kingdom can be supported by both emotional arguments and sentiment as well as by hard economic facts.
The Union has been to the economic benefit of the Scottish people. The real danger for Scotland is that independence will lead to significant economic stagnation and decline. Without the Union, Scotland might not be as attractive a place for some sectors and industries to invest or do business in. Talent and business might leave. We must remember that the 1707 Union was as much about economics as it was about politics. Businesses do not like uncertainty. There is clear certainty and continuity if Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom. Businesses and investors will know exactly where they stand if Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom. They know and understand the regulatory regime, the laws and the relationships. In contrast, there will be massive uncertainty if Scotland decides to pursue an independent course.
I appreciate that other hon. Members have touched, and will touch, on many of the business and economic issues, such as the currency—the euro, sterling or a Scottish dollar—membership of the EU, immigration, tax and regulation, particularly of the financial sector.
As for the emotional debate, I see nothing wrong with people being proud of their roots; proud to say that they are Scottish as well as British, in exactly the same way that someone can call themselves Welsh, Irish, a Yorkshire man, a Brummie or much else. They are still British, but they can and should be proud of both. Indeed, the Olympic games demonstrate the unifying attachment that most people have to the United Kingdom.
We must not forget that the debate on Scotland’s place in the UK is of great importance to places such as Carlisle. There is much work, leisure, social, shopping and family relationships that cross the border. There is therefore a danger that we will end up with unnecessary complications and difficulties that could hinder such activity, particularly business. There could be different currencies, different health and safety or environmental regulations and alternative immigration policies. Indeed, daylight hours could be different. In an extreme case, we could end up with someone who travels across the border in either direction needing to carry ID, change their money, alter their watch, follow different regulations and pay different taxes, and wondering whether it was all worth while.
In conclusion, speaking as the MP for Carlisle, a Scot and a UK citizen, I believe that Scotland’s place in the UK is very much like Carlisle’s—it should be at its centre.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Se urram mhor a tha ann dhomh an diugh cothrom bruidhinn air Alba a bhi neo-eisimeileachd.
I start in Gaelic, the oldest language of these islands of Britain and Ireland, to say that it is a great pleasure to speak in this debate about the day Scotland will be independent. It is tremendous that this House has taken this opportunity to debate the vital topic of how Scotland can join the world as an independent nation—how it can be a full part of the United Nations and a full and proper member of the Commonwealth, not kept apart and separate as a region of another state, and certainly not knowing its place in the Union. If ever a debate had a title with the hangover of imperialism, it is this one. Scotland’s place, like that of New Zealand, Canada, Norway, Denmark and Ireland, is in the world. No country in the developed world has voted against their independence, and I am sure that Scotland will not be the first. It is an odd insult to Scotland that here in Westminster every other nation is seen as independent but Scotland is insulted by the word “separate” or “separatism”. We will be independent like the others, too.
The right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling)—the darling leader of the no campaign—often says that independence is a one-way street. [Interruption.] Yes, he darkly warns. In fairness, not much he says has any brightness and joy. But he is describing a situation and not a fact. The fact is that independence is probably irreversible. The empirical reality, from observation, is that none who gains independence chooses to give it up. As it works personally when we stop being children and start making decisions for ourselves, so it works for countries. The best people to make decisions for a country are the people who live and work there, and this is true for Scotland.
Iain Stewart
The hon. Gentleman has made a very interesting point. If, heaven forfend, there is a yes vote on 18 September, will he commit his party, at some subsequent date, to give a further referendum to allow Scotland back into the United Kingdom?
Mr MacNeil
No, I will not, but others are free to campaign for that if they so choose and to do so if they win a mandate.
To my many English friends who worry that in the absence of Scotland they would have permanent Tory Government in the rump UK, the facts are that Scotland has changed the Government of the UK for only six months since 1945, whereas the Scottish nation, under the tawdry political Union of 1707, has got a Government it has not voted for two thirds of the time since 1945.
Mr MacNeil
My hon. Friend makes a great point. Labour is out of power in Scotland, and, like the Liberals and Tories, is heading ever further downwards.
Scotland will not affect the Government of Westminster 98% of the time. Regardless of that, our first job as representatives of the people in Scotland is to make the lives of those who live in Scotland better. Concern about who is in government in London, Paris, Madrid, Berlin or Dublin should not be the guiding light of any Scots democrat: it should be the conditions of people in the housing estates of Easterhouse, Castlemilk, Sighthill and The Raploch and bettering our cities.
Mr MacNeil
My time is limited.
Our concern should be improving lives in Lochaber, better quality jobs in Sutherland, more young people staying in Lewis, and a flourishing Skye. No more neglect! Our concern should not be the red Tories or the blue Tory Government in London, but the needs of the people of Scotland and the democratic will of the people in Scotland, regardless of where in the world they are from. Our immigrants are very welcome in Scotland, as my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) has often said. Scotland’s destiny is in those people’s hands, and only a yes vote keeps that destiny in the hands of the people in Scotland.
We are at a crossroads in Scotland. Do we have the courage to deliver a better future to succeeding generations? The Norwegians did. Dirt poor when they made the decision in 1906, without the manifest advantages of Scotland today, they now have an oil fund for future generations so that when the oil runs out, the money will not. The finances of Scotland are good, despite having a tax system that is not designed to optimise or maximise Scotland’s potential. But in each and every of the last 32 years, estimates show that Scotland has contributed more tax per person than the UK as a whole. The figures for Scotland are equivalent to £10,700 tax per head annually, while for the UK as a whole they are only £9,000. From 2007-08, public spending has been a lower share of Scotland’s GDP than in the UK as a whole. Taking tax and spending together, over the past five years public finances in Scotland have been better than in the UK as a whole by £12.6 billion.
Mr MacNeil
Time does not allow.
Only this week, the Financial Times backs this with the immortal line—[Interruption.] Members should listen rather than barrack. They should have the courtesy to listen, and they should listen to this: “An independent Scotland could”—[Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
Order. The House must listen to the hon. Gentleman.
Mr MacNeil
Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I hope that Labour Members feel suitably chastised. They should listen to this:
“An independent Scotland could…expect to start with healthier state finances than the rest of the UK.”
Even without oil and gas, Scotland’s GDP is higher than Italy’s and equal to that of France. Why we should say, “Even without oil and gas”, I do not know—we do not mention that when we talk about Norway or Saudi Arabia. Financially and economically, Scotland can do it. In fact, it has been said:
“It would be wrong to suggest that Scotland could not be another such successful, independent country.”
Would any Government Member wish to tell me who said that? It was the Prime Minister. Who could disagree with those words, or indeed the words of Ruth Davidson? I see the blank looks on the Tory Benches; Members can Google her later to find out who she is. She said:
“The question is not whether Scotland can survive as a separate state. Of course it could.”
Notice that she uses the word “separate”. My real favourite, knowing that the economic case has been won by the yes side, is this:
“Our argument has never been that Scotland couldn’t be independent”.
That was the Tory’s Darling in Scotland, the Labour MP for Edinburgh South West.
Our message is one of hope. Parents in the UK pay the highest child care costs in Europe. Scottish parents spend an average of 27% of household income on child care, whereas the OECD average is 12%. When we are independent and get the taxes and the economy properly organised, we in Scotland will dramatically improve child care. But we need the necessary powers, and we cannot have financial leakage of fiscal benefits to those in Westminster who choose not to fund this. It happens in Sweden and it will happen in Scotland. Independence must happen. We cannot have families looking at £9,000 tuition fees for every child going to university, costing every family £36,000 per child, with a family of three paying a staggering £108,000. That is the cost of voting no. Voting no to independence risks our budget, 100,000 more children in poverty, Scotland going out of the EU against our will, no guarantee of more powers for the Parliament, and no guarantee of getting the Government we vote for. Therefore Scotland must be independent.
We know we can keep the pound sterling. The Daily Telegraph blew the gaff when it said that the
“new nation will be able to keep the pound”,
or else “renounce…the debt”. We are not subsidy junkies. We can keep the pound while the rest of the world looks at us: the independence generation. They envy us in Canada, New Zealand and Australia, because we will deliver independence.
John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
What a considerable pleasure it is to follow the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil). Rarely can a speech with such a terrible lack of facts have graced this hallowed Chamber. What a load of perfectly emotional clap-trap!
John Thurso
Do sit down, dear boy.
When I originally put my name down to speak in this debate, I intended to stick to the dismal science, as Governor Carney called it in his address in Edinburgh, and to confine myself to the facts as they have been exposed in the Treasury Committee, but alas, the Chairman of the Committee, the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie), was the first to be called and did a far better job than I could.
When I listened to the extraordinarily good and trenchant speech by the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), I was struck by the fact that we should not run away from the emotion involved in this decision. I would therefore like first to touch a little on the “heart” issues before I return to the “facts” issues.
Not long ago, I had the honour of addressing a group of Girl Guides in Thurso who had asked me to come and explain the consequences of independence or the potential for Scotland of independence. I felt it was very important to try to give as balanced a view as I could and to explain both sides of the argument before giving my conclusion as to why I preferred to stay in the Union. Like the hon. Gentleman, I started by giving a bit of history. I did not quite go back to the Romans, but I did point out that it was not until, I think, 1468 —it was certainly around that part of the 15th century—that the northern isles came into the Scotland we now know. The administrative construct of modern Scotland, therefore, existed for less time than the Union.
It is important to put that in context, because we are so often given a wonderful diet whereby somehow the great Gaeldom goes back for millennia to some distant point in history and are told that if we do not give Scotland its independence we will be denying it its destiny. The plain fact is that that is just a load of emotional tosh. We should set it to one side and understand the true history.
If we look back a little further to the battle of Largs, we will see that, up to that point, Caithness and its people owed allegiance, through the Earl of Orkney—one of my ancestors—to the Norsk side and the King of Norway. Were Scotland to find itself in the impossible position of being independent, I think I would join my good friends from the northern isles in seeking independence and going back to that earldom.
We need to assess the risks as well as the benefits, and I hope the debate will be calm and rational. When I first joined the Treasury Committee, we looked at globalisation, and that is what we need to consider in order to understand what is happening in business. When we talk about what might happen to business, we have to consider where companies would be best regulated. The financial services industry in Scotland may well think that business would be better off regulated in a different jurisdiction. We have to think about companies that have treaties with other sovereign nations and may not continue to build things in Scotland if it becomes a separate country. We also have to think about whether people who wish to invest in the United Kingdom would go to Scotland or elsewhere in the UK. I would suggest that the simple, practical commercial decision for most of them would be to go elsewhere in the UK. The benefits cannot be marginal and nor can they be uncertain. If Scotland is to seek independence, the benefits must be substantial and proven, but that case has not yet been made.
We are a brave heart nation. That is a great Scottish characteristic, but another one is the canny heid and this is a time for canny heids. Otherwise, my grandchildren will one day read the headline in one of the Scottish newspapers, “Will the last person leaving Scotland snuff out the candle?”
Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to be able to contribute to this debate. The first priority of any responsible Government is, of course, the security of their people and I want to say a few words about that.
As part of the UK, Scots have a high level of security in a very dangerous world. Service personnel from Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland work together in our armed forces to keep us safe at home and to tackle threats around the world. People like the security that the UK armed forces provide, and that is reflected in some of the findings of the recent Scottish social attitudes survey. If Scotland became independent, only 27% believe she should have her own army, navy and air force, while 67% believe we should still combine our armed forces with the rest of the UK. There are very few issues in the survey on which there is such overwhelming majority support for one option over another. Overwhelming support is also given to the idea of keeping the pound, whatever happens. The views of Scots on the issue of the nuclear deterrent are not as clear cut as they are on what should happen to our armed forces.
As part of the UK, we are also a part of NATO. Our membership is vital and means that we work with other countries and benefit from full spectrum defence capabilities; that we are not out on our own; and that we have influence in the world. The SNP, having dragged its members to reverse their long-standing opposition to NATO membership, is still in a muddle on the issue. It says that it would want to join NATO only if it were given a guarantee that no nuclear submarines would pass through Scotland’s waters. However, the White Paper also states that it would operate a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. Both positions cannot be true: either the SNP would apply to join NATO on the basis of its condition, or it would drop that condition and be happy to join and operate a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. Therefore, if we become independent, the SNP’s position on our membership of NATO, and the basis on which it would like us to join, is entirely unclear. Of course, there is no guarantee that we would be allowed to join.
The White Paper’s proposed defence budget is £2.5 billion a year, which is just 7% of the current total UK defence budget, every penny of which is spent on protecting Scottish families and others throughout the UK. The White Paper also includes an annual defence budget, but it does not mention any start-up costs or make a single procurement pledge.
The UK’s defence structure cannot be easily disaggregated. Assets and troops based throughout the UK and the rest of the world are for the defence and security of everyone who lives here. Scotland receives the full benefits of the protection and security afforded to the rest of the UK.
Gemma Doyle
I will not, I am afraid: I do not have much time.
We pool our resources and work together to keep the people of the UK safe. Why would we want to give that up?
A yellow thread of assumption runs through the White Paper. It is assumed that the remainder of the UK would cheerfully hand over whatever equipment an independent Scotland asked for, but what would an independent Scotland do if the remainder of the UK said, “I think we’ll keep our frigates and Typhoons”? Such equipment cannot be bought off the shelf, unless it is bought second hand. Perhaps that is the back-up plan.
UK defence sustains thousands of jobs—both on the front line and in industry—in Scotland. As has been said, our shipyards get special preference when it comes to the awarding of contracts. The UK does not build complex warships in other countries. The GMB convenor in Scotstoun has described the SNP’s defence plans as a “complete fantasy” that would lead to “yard closures”. We pool our resources and we share the risk, and our defence is much better within the UK.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle).
I speak in this debate both as a representative of my constituents in Stafford and as a proud citizen of the United Kingdom who, as my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) so eloquently put it, cares deeply about—indeed, loves—the kingdom and its constituent nations of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Together with the vast majority of my constituents—if a poll we took at a recent meeting and many conversations I have had with them are anything to go by—I wish Scotland to remain part of the United Kingdom.
Somehow there is a notion that people in the rest of the UK are not concerned about this decision, but that certainly does not accord with my experience. They do care: it is just that, quite rightly, they respect the right of the Scottish people to make up their own minds in this most important decision. My hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) said that as the United Kingdom we stood united against fascism. We stood together for freedom and against tyranny during the cold war, and today we work together in tackling poverty and its causes around the world. It is not for nothing that the historic agreement about tackling poverty was signed in 2005 at Gleneagles in Scotland.
Mr MacNeil
The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point about the nations that stood together under the allied banner during the second world war. It is important to remember that there were about 40 nations under that allied banner. I am particularly thinking of Norway, with the likes of Joachim Rønneberg, the Telemark hero, who made sure that Hitler did not get heavy water, and so prevented the flattening of this city. It was not just about one nation, but about the allied umbrella, and we should thank all the allies.
Jeremy Lefroy
I thank the hon. Gentleman for saying that, and he is absolutely right. We must remember all the nations that worked together, but we stood together as the United Kingdom, together with those nations. As a United Kingdom, we now have a very strong voice in the world through the G8 and our seats on the United Nations Security Council and the executive boards of the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and other organisations. That voice is vital both for our own interests but, even more importantly, for those of the citizens of the world.
To be a little personal for a moment, my late father-in-law, Donald MacKay from Caithness, is just one important but personal example of the fundamental contribution made by Scots across the ages to our United Kingdom. He worked on radar for the Royal Navy in Haslemere during the war alongside my father—he, completely coincidentally, was there at the same time—and so many others from across the UK and, as the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) said, from other nations, and therefore played his role in protecting our vital supply lifelines in the Atlantic and elsewhere. That is just another example of the intellectual seriousness, which was referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border, that Scotland and Scots so often bring to our deliberations and work in the United Kingdom.
As the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) said, we are part of one family in the UK. Like any family, we have our squabbles, but we also stand up for each other in difficult times, shoulder to shoulder. I and, I believe, millions of others in England and, indeed, in other parts of the United Kingdom care deeply about Scotland remaining in the UK. We have done so much together; let us continue to do so.
Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)
The debate has been interesting so far, particularly the contributions of Scottish National party representatives. There has been sound, fury and passion about what they see as the great differences between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, but the danger is that the sound, fury and passion will obscure the reality of the SNP’s proposals to change the Union.
There is a rather peculiar notion at the heart of the nationalist case, which is that the economic and social union between the peoples of these islands should continue, but that the political Union should end. I will come back to examine what that peculiar notion means for Scotland, but the fact that the Scottish National party believes that economic and social union should continue—the White Paper is eloquent testimony to that desire—says something about how 300 years of partnership have brought the peoples of these islands closer together. That is not surprising: we have a shared language, notwithstanding the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) and others, as well as family ties, a shared currency, free trade and common trade unions across the United Kingdom.
Gregg McClymont
Perhaps after I have made some progress.
We share tastes, preferences and of course a common popular culture, which is reinforced every Saturday night when the nation comes together to watch “Strictly Coming Dancing”, among other programmes. It is important to recognise that the White Paper is eloquent testimony to all that. The SNP wants to argue that all those matters can be retained in their current form, while the political Union disappears.
Why do nationalists, whose philosophy is based on a belief in difference, come to that conclusion? The answer is that 300 years of shared history cannot be washed away or forgone. When Alex Salmond says, as he recently did to James Naughtie, that he has a Scottish identity but also a British one, it is testimony to that, whether Mr Salmond believes it or not. He knows that the people of Scotland believe that there are mutual ties that bind us across these islands.
Gregg McClymont
The hon. Gentleman should allow me to develop my argument a little further.
The SNP wants the political Union to end, but the social and economic union to continue. In those circumstances, the referendum will be about the best form of Government across these islands. That point was eloquently made by the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart). If economic and social union is to endure, as shown by the SNP’s White Paper, the question becomes one about how Scotland’s political interests are to be represented. The answer that Scots came up with 300, 400 or even 500 years ago was a Union. With John Mair of Haddington in the lead, they came up, in diabolically clever Scottish fashion, with a way to create a partnership between two countries of very unequal size. When we celebrate Robert the Bruce and William Wallace, we are saying that because Scotland entered the Union freely, we created a partnership and were not subordinated.
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)
Will not the Scottish Government’s proposals lead to an incredible democratic deficit? At the moment, if people in Scotland do not like what the UK Government do, they can have their say through their MPs. In the new arrangement proposed by the SNP, any negotiations would be intergovernmental, and it would not be up to the people of Scotland but to the Scottish Government to see what could be extracted from negotiations with the UK Government.
Gregg McClymont
My hon. Friend makes a good point. There is a very Scottish way of putting it: the nationalists want us to have our cake and eat it, but that is very difficult. When Alex Salmond claims that by Scotland leaving the political union, England would lose a surly lodger and gain a good neighbour—that is important, because it illuminates the nationalists’ view of the world—my response is very straightforward: how can you be a lodger in your own house? We built this house together, and it is ours as much as anyone else’s. That house has of course been refurbished; it is not unchanging. The biggest constitutional change in this country in 300 years was the creation of the Scottish Parliament. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar does not like to be faced with facts—his speech was a fact-free zone—but the fact is that this is our house as well as that of the other peoples of the United Kingdom.
That is the basis on which this debate must proceed: how can one continue an economic and social union—the ties that bind us are accepted even by the nationalists—without political representation in the place where such social and economic decisions are made? The debate about the currency, interest rates and continuing social ties must proceed on that basis.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
Order. Before we go any further, I should point out to the House that there is a time limit on speeches in this debate, and not much time is left. There are more hon. Members who wish to speak than there is time available if they all take the full five minutes, plus an extra two and a half minutes for interventions; several hon. Members who have sat here all afternoon may not have an opportunity to speak. I ask those about to speak to keep within the five minutes, including interventions, out of courtesy to their colleagues. If they do so, everyone will have the opportunity to speak in this extremely important debate.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
My father, Squadron Leader Jock Stewart, MC, was an RAF officer from Glasgow. My mother was from London and served in the Special Operations Executive. I am therefore half Scottish, half English and proudly British. As I come from a service family and have been a soldier myself, I intend to talk about just how valuable men and women from Scotland are to our armed forces.
Scottish soldiers, sailors and airmen have always had a tremendous reputation as brave, ferocious warriors. Throughout history, proportionately more Scots than Englishmen, Welshmen or Irishmen have taken the Queen’s shilling to fight for the Crown. Since 1707, Scottish soldiers have played a crucial part in most battles fought by the British Army.
The Gordon Highlanders had a leading part in the 1815 Waterloo campaign. At the battle of Quatre Bras on 16 June 1815, the Gordons halted the French advance in its tracks with the bayonet. Two days later, the regiment was in the midst of it again on the field of Waterloo. By then, casualties had reduced the gallant Gordons to about 250 men, and yet those incredible soldiers again charged the French frontally with the bayonet. As the Highlanders approached, the French broke into disarray and could only be caught by other Scotsmen on horses. The Scots Greys galloped past the Gordons to get at the French enemy. According to some accounts, Scottish infantrymen clung to the stirrups of the Scottish cavalry so that they could reach the enemy more easily. Is not that wonderful?
Bob Stewart
No, I have heard too much rubbish from the hon. Gentleman this afternoon.
About 700,000 Scots served in the first world war, with about 150,000 losing their lives. The Highlanders earned their nicknames—the devils in skirts or the ladies from hell—at a battle in 1916, when the 51st Highland Division crossed a battlefield littered with the fallen to storm German positions with such force that thousands of prisoners were taken. At the end of the first world war, the 51st Highland Division was widely reckoned to be the best fighting force in France.
The second world war enhanced the Scottish soldier’s incredible reputation. To date, 117 Victoria Crosses have been won by Scotsmen—soldiers, sailors and airmen.
For me, there is nothing more stirring in a fight than the sound of bagpipes. As the British United Nations commander in Bosnia in 1992-93, I used my two pipers frequently. For instance, I asked them to play at line crossings because all of us needed courage to advance through no man’s land, especially as Staff Sergeant Steve Bristow had previously been wounded beside me by a sniper. The sound of bagpipes wafting through the air was an incredible encouragement to those of us who were frightened. My mainly English soldiers loved the skirling, thrilling and impossible to miss sound of the pipes. Once, there was intense fighting all around my base at Vitez. I asked my piper, Lance Corporal Cleary, to stand on the roof and make an impact. He did just that. The fighting and the shooting died down quite quickly as that tremendously emotive and martial sound echoed down the valley.
My purpose this afternoon has been to remind the House just how important those in the British Army—indeed, those in all three services—consider the contribution that is made by their Scottish comrades, both men and women, to be.
Bob Stewart
No.
Scottish men and women form an integral part of our armed forces. I would grieve hugely if they were no longer a part of them. I sincerely hope that that will never happen.
Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)
In the short time available to me, I will focus on the referendum and the issue of independence.
A recent YouGov poll showed that 29% of the people of Scotland were in favour of independence. That figure is typical of recent polls. Why does the SNP want a debate with David Cameron? Why is it targeting Labour voters with the nonsense that this debate is about Labour Scotland versus Tory England? Why is it undermining the prospect of a future United Kingdom Labour Government? That argument is not supported by the facts.
Less than a quarter of Scottish people supported the SNP in the 2011 elections, but it has a majority in the Scottish Parliament. It has a mandate for a referendum, but not a mandate to be fixated on independence. In the 2010 general election, the Labour party received more votes than the SNP received in that election and in the 2011 election. With respect to Government Members, the reality is that the 41 Scottish Labour MPs in this House are more representative of the views of the Scottish people than the present Scottish Government.
The majority of Scottish votes in the 2010 general election were cast for centre left parties. The same was true in England, Wales and even Northern Ireland. We therefore share the same values throughout the United Kingdom. We have the same values and, indeed, the same problems in Glasgow, Liverpool, Edinburgh, Birmingham, Aberdeen and Manchester. The reality is that, whatever the problems, the United Kingdom works.
In all candour, I must say that what does not work is the coalition’s attitude to working people, which has been rejected by Scottish, Welsh and Irish people and most English people. The SNP disregards the fact that it has been rejected and uses it as an excuse to promote independence. The Scottish Government could act now on child care. As my colleagues have pointed out, Labour has pushed the Scottish Government hard for more than a year to act on the bedroom tax. For purely political reasons, they delayed their decision until this week. I do not for one second want the nats to regard the issue of welfare as an argument for separatism. Who can forget the fact that they took £34 million from disabled children and their families in Scotland and spent it on other things, mostly on political gimmicks? I certainly will not.
The positive reality is that the economies of Scotland and England are interconnected. Mr Salmond called the pound
“a millstone round Scotland’s neck”
and said that he wanted to join the euro. Now, the nationalists wants to opt out and keep the pound. How opportunistic can they get? The rest of the UK is Scotland’s largest trading partner. If corporation tax is cut, it will become a competitor. Will Scotland be allowed to keep the pound and cut corporation tax?
Mr Salmond is, by nature, a gambler. He is willing to take a risk with the Scottish economy and our people’s prosperity. However, there will be no way back if the people decide to have independence. I believe that the majority of our kinsfolk in the United Kingdom want Scotland to stay. The United Kingdom is not just a political system; it is our home. We are entitled to know what the future offers.
Thankfully, the only people who can stop Scottish independence are the Scottish people themselves. I passionately urge them to reject the precarious and uncharted path of independence and separatism, which in so many ways would leave our country defenceless, exposed and alone.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to follow some interesting speeches and in the brief time available I want to pick up on the three themes with which my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) opened the debate: identity, economics and vision. I may not have much time to talk about the economics, but other hon. Members have made some good arguments about the currency, and mentioned the comments made by the Governor of the Bank of England, and others.
On identity, like everyone else who has spoken today from across the House, I am proud of my cultural identity as a Scot. I would describe myself as Scottish, and in the days when we wrote in our school jotters our full name and address, it would always be “Shortlees, Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, Scotland, UK, Europe, the world, the universe.”—[Laughter.] I recognise that other hon. Members have done the same thing. That signified how I have always seen myself, and how the majority of Scots see themselves. We are passionately proud to be Scottish, but we also see ourselves as citizens of the world, and no doubt in future years, as citizens of that universe. That is why, when I speak to my constituents they raise real concerns about the idea of separating and splitting from the rest of the United Kingdom.
In the past week I have been at a number of meetings and met people from across the United Kingdom, and interestingly, the first things we talked about were the Scottish connections. So far this week I have met people who are living and working in England but whose families come from Coatbridge, Cambuslang, and even further afield up north in Aberdeen and Inverness. Although they would now describe themselves as English because that is where their families are located, they are none the less proud of their Scottish heritage.
Cathy Jamieson
I am terribly sorry but I do not have time to take interventions as other Members want to speak. My point is that we are able to be Scottish and citizens of the United Kingdom—and indeed Europe—at the same time, which is important.
Let me pick on one point. I think that the Scottish people are entitled to have a fair, honest and courteous debate on this issue.
Cathy Jamieson
I hear the hon. Gentleman baying at me across the Benches, but my point is that many of my constituents may well vote yes and that will be their right, but the debate should take place in a courteous way. People should have the facts and information, and they should not have others shouting them down from 12 feet away. It is important that that information is trustworthy and that people have a sense that there is no political bias from the Government.
Interestingly, I have been sent a copy of a press release issued by Transport Scotland—the transport agency in Scotland. It begins:
“Powers of independence would better support transport.”
When such things are issued by a Government agency in Scotland it gives cause for concern that the civil service and Government agencies have become overly politicised. That makes it difficult for others to feel able to speak out because they fear they will somehow be castigated or suffer the consequences of doing so, and that issue ought to be looked at.
In this constant drive for additional powers, I served for 12 years in the Scottish Parliament and saw the changes that were made. I worked with UK Government Ministers when I was a Minister in the Scottish Executive, and looked at how we could transform and move on with powers. However, it is dangerous to think that simply adding more and more powers without any overall pattern is any more democratic or likely to deliver anything further than social justice. We should be proud to be Scots and part of the UK. This debate will continue but it must do so in a way that gives our constituents the opportunity to hear the arguments and make up their own minds.
Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)
I wear a badge in this House and in Scotland that has on it the saltire and the rose. It states: “Labour: A UK voice for Scotland.” That is the reality of Scotland’s place in the UK. With all due respect to those on the Government Benches, we have the ability to get rid of the coalition Government and the things they are doing, and vote in a Labour Government. That is the duty of the 41 Scottish Labour Members of Parliament, which we have because we are in the United Kingdom. We get to choose for everyone.
For me as the Member who represents 75% of Tam Dalyell’s old constituency of West Lothian, it is the answer to the West Lothian question. He wondered why he could talk about Blackburn in England but not Blackburn in Scotland, but I can talk about Blackburn in both countries in this Chamber, because the policies of this Parliament affect people in England and in Scotland—in both Blackburns.
I am seeking a permanent place in the UK, but one that is changing. It is about Scotland in an economically safer place: the UK’s economic resilience is a thing that Scotland has. Think of what happened when £44.7 billion of UK taxes were used to save RBS, plus £20 billion for HBOS and £20 billion for Lloyds TSB, which has places in Scotland. The resilience of the UK economy was the reason we could survive that, and Scotland would not have survived it without being part of the UK.
With quantitative easing, how much money was printed by the Bank of England to save the economy of Scotland, keep interest rates down, and save companies and households in Scotland? I do not like the austerity policies introduced for the people of the UK, but I understand why we need to save the economy of Scotland in a UK environment. Today, RBS announced in The Guardian that if there is independence it will switch its headquarters from Edinburgh. It has sensibly realised the problem that will exist if Scotland is cut off from the rest of the UK.
The other thing that Scotland gets as part of the UK is fiscal independence. For reasons of good socialist practice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), the much criticised former Chancellor, kept us out of the euro and the eurozone. He kept us out of the stability and growth pact and away from the budgets that are now being written for the eurozone countries through the two pack and the six pack that we would have faced. I have sat on the European Scrutiny Committee for 15 years—the Chairman for a lot longer—and we have heard President Barroso say that Scotland will have to reapply to the EU and that it will get back in only if it signs up to the euro. That is why it is dangerous to leave the UK and that fiscal independence, and try to renegotiate another pact. There is no question but that Scotland will get back into the EU, but only if it signs up to the eurozone fiscal disciplines.
What does that mean? A recent paper states what happened to Croatia, the latest entrant to the EU. Its budget will be 5.4% in deficit in 2013, 6.5% in 2014, and 6.2% in 2015—but oh no it will not. It has been told that under eurozone rules it must reduce the deficit to 4.6% in 2013, 3.5% in 2015, and 2.7% in 2016. It will have to slash almost 3% off its budget. Consider what happened to Lithuania in those circumstances: a 15% collapse in its economy, a 40% cut in all public sector pay, and now it is struggling. We were there recently during its presidency, and were told that 40% of all transactions now take place under the counter without paying tax. That is the effect of the discipline of the eurozone.
Scotland could, of course, go for the sterling currency union—the latest wheeze—which is a mini copy of the eurozone with the fiscal interests of control in the larger economy. Mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England, delivered the home truths in Edinburgh and was quoted in the Financial Times:
“The desire of the Scottish government to remaining in the sterling area would, he stressed, sharply curtail Scotland’s fiscal and financial independence.”
It is quite clear that the bigger country would dictate the policies of the smaller country.
At the moment there are massive subsidies from England and its taxpayers for wind farms. Our renewables are being brought up in the UK, and they are paid for by the UK. Postal services are subsidised in exactly the same manner, and under independence there would need to be either a massive subsidy through the taxpayer, or a massive hike in postal charges. The best thing we can do is remain in the UK and fight for change that benefits Scotland in the UK.
Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to contribute to this debate. Scotland has a proud and distinct history within the UK, and the UK is a union state rather than a unitary state. John P Mackintosh, former MP for Berwick and East Lothian, was a great thinker and proponent of devolution. He said:
“People in Scotland want a degree of government for themselves. It is not beyond the wit of man to devise the institution to meet those demands.”
Those words are now engraved about the Donald Dewar Room in Holyrood. Unfortunately, it was beyond the wit of the SNP to be a part of the Scottish Constitutional Convention, where men and women across Scotland’s civic society joined together to devise the Scottish Parliament, which now provides Scottish accountability for Scotland to make distinctive decisions on a wide range of policy.
For those of us in the Labour movement, devolution is about so much more than political accountability. I, along with 74% of voters, said yes in September 1997. I had seen how our councils in Scotland had battled to protect our people from the worst excesses of Thatcher’s Government. Her plan, and we now know it was her plan to close the pits and escalate the dispute, devastated my constituency. I wanted greater protection from any future Tory Government. Just yesterday in the Scottish Parliament, we have seen how that can happen. Despite John Swinney saying that he did not want to let Westminster off the hook and Nicola Sturgeon preferring a scrap with Westminster to scrapping the bedroom tax, thanks to the efforts of Jackie Baillie, Iain Gray and the Govan Law Centre, people in my constituency and across Scotland are now protected from this inhumane measure. I also want to give credit to my own local housing association, which has found a legal way to protect its tenants. This is the success and the power of devolution. This is the reality of having the best of both worlds.
I have known since my early years that I was not a nationalist. I remember a conversation on the Fort William primary school minibus. A nationalist girl took out a sweetie paper, tore it in half, and explained to me that this was what happened to Scotland’s wealth. I acknowledge that the nationalist argument has moved on from sweetie papers, but what it cannot challenge today—no matter how many White Papers it publishes, however much it uses our civil service for its political ends and however much it seeks to silence those who even dare to ask questions of its case—is the fact that Scotland, as part of the UK, is better placed to do good here at home and around the world.
In a packed Assembly Rooms in Edinburgh this week, the hon. Member for Bradford West (George Galloway) spoke about the difference that Scottish MPs made in this place in stopping military intervention in Syria. In the recent report from the Select Committee on International Development, we can also see the good that we do. I urge the voters in Scotland: do not tear my country apart and do not tear my family apart.
Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)
I will endeavour to be as brief as possible, because I know that other Members are still waiting to contribute to the debate.
I believe that Scotland’s place in the UK is about being part of one of the largest economies in Europe and the sixth largest in the world. I believe that separation from the rest of the UK would give Scottish businesses an unnecessary barrier to trading with our biggest market. We know, without doubt, that the rest of the UK is Scotland’s biggest market. Independence would turn our border into a barrier for existing and future trade. What sense would that make? The open border between Scotland and the UK brings significant economic, trade and employment opportunities. As part of the UK, Scotland has access to a single market of approximately 70 million people.
In addition to shared opportunities, the pooling of resources across the UK allows risk to be shared, something seen most recently by the bail-out of the banks by the UK Treasury. The UK Treasury used £37 billion to bail out Scottish-based banks during the world financial crisis, saving more than 400 RBS jobs in Inverclyde. The evidence is that, economically and socially, the Scottish people are better off being part of a Union that pools risks and rewards. There is, of course, also significant UK public sector employment in Scotland. Two thirds of all civil servants in Scotland work for the UK Government. UK defence contracts are also essential to Scottish industry. The Ministry of Defence has some 700 direct contracts in Scotland, supporting thousands of jobs. We also have cross-border private sector trading. Ease of doing business and contract tendering are essential for bringing success to Scottish firms in a wider UK market. Clearly, Scotland has an important economic relationship with the rest of the UK, benefiting from access to a single market comprising tens of millions of people.
The facts speak for themselves: Scottish business buys and sells more products and services within the UK than any other country in the world. In 2010, 70% of Scotland’s exported goods went to other parts of the UK and 70% of imports are estimated to have come from the UK. That clearly demonstrates that Scotland’s economic performance is stronger because it is part of a larger integrated UK economy. Exit the UK and our border becomes a barrier: a barrier that will impede and restrict ease of trade.
Even where free trade agreements exist alongside controlled borders, neighbouring countries with similar economies are affected by the presence of that border. Analysis finds, for example, that trade between the US and Canada is thought to be 44% lower than it could be as a result of the border between them. It is not just business that will be disadvantaged. Labour migration between Scotland and the rest of the UK is also estimated to be as much as 75% higher in an integrated UK, allowing the sharing of skills and knowledge. Leave the UK, and we create an unnecessary barrier to trade with the rest of the UK. That is why Labour’s vision for Scotland is about working across borders. Our vision for Scotland is being part of bigger, not what independence offers—part of smaller.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
One of the laziest forms of political argument is to put up a straw man, knock it down and think the argument has been won. We had an example of that from the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart). What he is saying to this House and the Scottish people is that they have two choices: independence or this, which is as good as it gets. That is not the choice. If by “as good as it gets” he means the policies of the current UK Government, I think I am just as much opposed to them as he is, however much we might disagree on other matters.
The current situation is not as good as it gets—of course it is not. The way to change that, however, is to campaign against those policies. The way to change that is to win the next general election. The way to change that is to use the powers we already have and those that are coming. We never hear from the Scottish Government about the fact that the Scotland Act 2012, which was passed in this place, is coming into force in a number of stages. The Act will devolve fiscal powers to a degree we have not had before in Scotland. What does the Scottish National party want to do with those powers? What is it doing with the powers it already has? In my city, people are desperate for affordable housing. Why are we not using some of the powers we already have to increase investment in housing to stop the housing crisis? There are so many things the Scottish Government could be doing with what we already have. So no, it is not as good as it gets: it is up to us to make it better—within the United Kingdom.
Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)
Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer and welcome to your position—I mean Madam Deputy Speaker. I was in the Scottish Parliament for 12 years. I apologise to you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Let me start again.
I begin by thanking the Backbench Business Committee for allocating the time for the debate. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) for securing it. As ever, his contribution was substantial and well informed. What has been most striking about the debate so far has been the demand for it and the pressing nature of the time given. I call on the Government to find time in their schedule to debate this pressing issue. Scotland has two Parliaments, and it is important that this one rises to the occasion to debate this important issue.
As I said, this has been mostly a good debate. As hon. Members will know, I stand here to support the cause of Scotland staying part of the Union, but I would ask that the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) be given more time in future debates, because I think he makes my case strongly for me. As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) made clear in his compelling speech, and as was as echoed by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), Scotland can have a better future, but based not on separation and pulling away from our friends and allies, but on co-operation. Based on the values of solidarity and equality, we can build a new future for Scotland and for future generations. As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East said, this is not a binary choice. Scotland can have a better future.
It is in the nature of my job that I often travel around the different parts of Scotland. I sit in many taxis, and I talk to many taxi drivers; and I go to a few bars—not as many bars as taxis—and I talk to people in bars. It has become clear to me that in our schools and homes there is a sense that the debate has entered a new phase. Throughout Scotland, people understand that we are deciding the future of our country, for our families and for generations to come. It will be one of the biggest decisions we Scots will make in our lives, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne) put it so well, and its effect will be felt not just by us, but by our children and our grandchildren.
Across Scotland, in the characteristic way demonstrated today, people are asking, “What are the consequences of independence? What will it mean for me and my family?” Important questions are being asked, and ordinary people were promised by the SNP Government that they would be answered, but it is widely recognised now, throughout Scotland, that the White Paper systematically failed to do that, as my hon. Friends the Members for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann) and for Livingston (Graeme Morrice) indicated. We were told the White Paper would resonate throughout the ages, but the view in Scotland is that it did not really last a fortnight.
Fundamental questions persist—questions that people ask me time and again. I know that not everyone likes to hear this, but we have to face the facts and spell out the impact that independence would have on people throughout Scotland. It is time to get real about the independence debate, so I want to spell out what separation would mean for families across Scotland and respond to some of the concerns about independence that people have raised with me. We need to get away from the clichés and the jargon, and make this debate real for ordinary people across Scotland. To start, we have heard about comments from the First Minister. I have got news for him: no one exemplifies the political elite more these days than Alex Salmond. He is so enjoying the comforts of his office that he has forgotten that his primary duty is to be straight with the people of Scotland. It is time he got away from the dinner circuit, and got out there and started telling the people of Scotland the truth about independence.
I want to share some facts with the House that I believe people across Scotland should know before they cast their vote. From talking to people—others will have had this experience—I know that the fundamental question they are asking themselves is, “Will it make me better off or worse off?” It is not a surprise, therefore, that arguments about currency, borrowing and financial regulation have dominated the debate so far. What would the nationalists’ plans for the currency mean for families? According to independent experts, they would mean higher interest rates—1.5 percentage points higher than in the rest of the UK.
What would that mean for someone struggling to raise a family? It would mean higher credit card borrowing costs. It would mean that someone who buys their Christmas presents on credit and pays off their card over the year will pay more. It means it will take people longer to pay off their mortgages. And when we talk about the Bank of England, what do we mean? Why is it so important? At the moment, it sets interest rates, determining how much people pay on their mortgage. Under the SNP’s plan, Scotland’s mortgage rates would be set by a bank in London over which Scotland would have absolutely no control or say. How would that empower people in Scotland?
As we have said, working across the UK keeps the cost of goods and services low because, as the major supermarkets have told us, a market of 60 million people allows costs to be spread wider than in a market of 5 million. What does that mean? It means that they
“would treat it as an international market…by putting up…prices”.
Those were not my words, but the words of a supermarket boss, quoted recently in The Financial Times—and, it must be said, endorsed by the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, because it is worried about higher costs for ordinary working people in Scotland. That is why all this matters.
The National Association of Pension Funds has said that the value of pension funds would be “eroded” in an independent Scotland, and Scottish Financial Enterprise has warned that Scotland faces a multi million-pound bill for a new regulator. What does that mean? It means, in short, that our pension contributions will be paying for independence. It is time that the First Minister was straight with the Scottish people. It is time that he told them that cross-border pension costs resulting from independence would increase costs in Scotland, and would undermine and erode the value of our pensions.
Finally, what does this tell us about Scotland’s public finances? I do not believe for a second—and let me say again that it is time that the SNP was not allowed to put up this straw man—that Scotland could not survive as an independent country; but surviving is not thriving. We know that, at present, Scotland gets back from the UK more than it pays in. In 2010-11, Scotland contributed £56.9 billion to the shared UK pot, and got back £64.5 billion. What does that mean for Scottish families? It means that we have £1,200 more per head. For Labour Members, the ability to redistribute funds across the UK is a point of pride.
My approach to the referendum is very simple. When we look at the great strengths that Scotland has—its great geography, our industries and the resilience, resourcefulness and skill of our people—we see what kind of a future we can have with those great strengths. We face enormous challenges too—we need to fight the poverty that is still so deeply embedded, and we need to tackle ill health—but the way in which to meet those challenges and maximise that resource is to exploit the values that have built the great achievements of the past, from the NHS to the welfare state. With those enduring values, we can work together in partnership for a new Scotland for new times: not pulling away with a deceit on the Scottish people, but delivering a promise to work in partnership for a better world and a better future.
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Carmichael)
Let me begin by congratulating the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) on securing the debate and expressing my gratitude to the Backbench Business Committee for selecting it. It has been an excellent debate, made all the better by the fact that we have heard voices from the whole of the United Kingdom. It has brought contributions of both passion and intellect, and I think we should thank all who have taken part in it.
This is one of Scotland’s two Parliaments, and it is right that we should take the opportunity to discuss Scotland’s future at a crucial moment in our history. This Parliament makes key decisions for Scotland as part of the United Kingdom in many areas: the economy, defence, international relations and pensions, to list but a few. As an integral part of the United Kingdom, this Parliament, and those within it who represent constituents throughout the UK, make decisions on behalf of the whole of the United Kingdom. However, this Parliament also recognised in 1997 that some decisions are better taken closer to the people, and it was through this House that the Scotland Act 1998 was delivered, providing real devolution of power within a strong United Kingdom. That decision was revisited by the work of the Calman commission in 2008, and implemented in the Scotland Act 2012.
The balance of powers between this Parliament and the Scottish Parliament is a dynamic settlement, and will rightly continue to be so. The debate on where that balance is struck is a debate that presupposes our continued membership of the United Kingdom family, but the question that will face us on 18 September is quite different: should we remain part of that family, or should we become an independent country?
Choosing to leave the United Kingdom would be a fundamental and irreversible step. As part of the UK family, we have a shared history and share many common values. As part of the United Kingdom, those of us in Scotland—like people living in England, Wales and Northern Ireland—benefit from the UK’s size and scale. We also benefit from the UK’s international influence, and from its economic strength. Scotland, like the rest of the UK, contributes to those benefits. We contribute in all manner of ways: economically, culturally and socially. As the hon. Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson) put it: together, we are truly greater than the sum of our constituent parts.
If we vote for independence, however, we walk away from those benefits. Scotland’s future would be based on a series of protracted negotiations with dozens of different states and organisations. Which currency would Scotland use? How would Scotland join the EU, and what terms of membership would it be able to secure? Would Scotland have to join the euro or become part of the Schengen arrangements? These are all questions to which the people of Scotland want answers. The nationalists owe them answers, but so far they have failed to deliver them. The truth is that all these issues would require detailed negotiations to pull Scotland out of the United Kingdom family of which it has been an integral part for over 300 years and to establish a new set of international relationships. Independence is a 20th century—or maybe even a 19th century—solution in search of a 21st century problem. Across a world in which change comes at a breathtaking pace, the prevailing trend is to pull down barriers and borders, not to put them up.
Mr MacNeil
The right hon. Gentleman says that some questions need to be answered. We know that some of them can be answered only by the European Commission. As Scottish Secretary, he should be Scotland’s man in Westminster, rather than Westminster’s man in Scotland. Will he ensure that the UK Government go to the European Commission and get answers to those questions that he describes as vital?
Mr Carmichael
The answers to those questions, if they were ever to be posed, would not be given by the European Commission; they would be given by the 28 member states of the European Union. The hon. Gentleman gives me the opportunity to remind the House that we have already heard from a number of them that this would not be a straightforward, painless process. If Scotland walked away from the United Kingdom, she would walk away from membership of the EU and would be required to negotiate her way back in.
As part of the United Kingdom, Scotland enjoys the best of both worlds. We have a strong Scottish Parliament in charge of key areas of Scottish life: health, education, transport and criminal justice. When it makes sense to do so, key decisions of the state are reserved to the UK Government and Parliament here to be taken on behalf of all citizens across the United Kingdom. Ours is a flexible settlement. When it makes sense to do so, we revise the settlement to provide further powers and to increase the Scottish Government and Parliament’s responsibility and, crucially, their accountability, not just for spending money but for raising it too.
The Scotland Act 2012 will substantially increase the Scottish Parliament’s powers, and it does so on the basis of evidence, consensus and consideration, ensuring that we adapt and evolve, but never at the expense of losing what works well and what works in the interests of all, right across the United Kingdom. All this—the creation of a Scottish Parliament and the incremental provision of further powers for it—has been designed by Scots and delivered by Scots for Scots, through this United Kingdom Parliament. Our devolution settlement is well and truly stamped “Made in Scotland”.
Right now, however, the issue on which we are all focusing is whether Scotland will remain part of the Union. Let me turn to the question of currency. It has featured strongly in this debate, and little wonder. The currency that we use is vital to all of us. It is vital for individuals buying food and paying off loans; for businesses paying employees, and trading with one another and across borders; for our banks and financial institutions; and, of course, for Scotland’s economy as a whole. Last week, the Governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, set out his views on currency unions in very measured and, as he described it, “technocratic” terms. Governor Carney highlighted the principal difficulties of entering a currency union: losing national sovereignty; the practical risks of financial instability; and having to provide fiscal support to bail out another country. A currency union would involve giving up some national sovereignty over economic policy. Why would it be in an independent Scotland’s interest to join a currency union?
Mr Carmichael
It was not worth taking the hon. Gentleman’s last intervention, so I am not going to take this one.
Joining such a union would result in severe limits to Scotland’s economic freedom and a risk of losing economic resilience and credibility. What about the continuing UK? We heard about this from the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie). A currency union would expose the continuing UK to the risk of bailing out banks in an independent Scotland if they were to get into difficulties again—these would be banks over which it would have no control, their being regulated under a different system in a foreign country. That is why we have consistently said it is highly unlikely that a currency union could be agreed, because it is highly unlikely that a currency union could be made to work. No one should vote for an independent Scotland on the basis that they will get to keep the UK pound sterling. Independence means leaving the UK’s monetary union; the only way for Scotland to be sure of keeping the UK pound as it is now is to stay in the UK. Nothing the Scottish Government have asserted changes that reality.
Earlier this week I was asked by a journalist what I expected to be doing on 19 September this year. I was able to reply that I am almost certain that I shall be celebrating the continuation of a highly successful Union, one that has been built on shared effort, common endeavour and, yes, love—19 September will be my 27th wedding anniversary. As I celebrate that anniversary with my English-born wife and my half-English, half-Scottish children, I am confident, but by no means complacent, that we shall be able to toast the continuation of that other highly successful Union, the one between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Mr Bain
With the leave of the House, Madam Deputy Speaker, I shall sum up.
We have had an interesting afternoon, and this debate has shown the best of the House of Commons: it has at times been irreverent, moving and witty, but it has also provided serious analysis of serious factual issues relating to this whole discussion of the constitution of the United Kingdom. We heard 25 contributions from Back Benchers. I have insufficient time to run through all of them, but I was particularly struck by the first, which came from the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie), who chairs the Treasury Committee. He emphasised clearly that for a functioning currency union there needs to be a banking union, and as my hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont) said, a political union, too. As Martin Wolf wrote in the Financial Times last week, the Bank of England cannot serve two masters, and that was the point that came from the hon. Gentleman’s contribution.
My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) spoke passionately about the contribution of the UK Labour movement in Scotland’s development. The right hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (Michael Moore) spoke about the scale and extent of the positive potential in Scotland’s economy if we make the right choice in this referendum in terms of our energy policy and in keeping the family of nations that is the United Kingdom together. The hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), along with other hon. Members, spoke about the head and heart case for keeping the UK together. Other hon. Members referred to our links with the European Union and the risks that this debate causes to those.
This political, economic, social and cultural Union has been more than the sum of its parts for the past 300 years. I hope that this will not be the last time this House of Commons discusses that Union, and that we shall celebrate the continuation of that Union for many decades and centuries to come.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered Scotland’s place in the UK.
International Wildlife Crime
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Nick Herbert (Arundel and South Downs) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered international wildlife crime.
Four years ago, I visited the Kaziranga national park in Assam, north-east India with the International Fund for Animal Welfare. The park is home to two thirds of the world’s population of one-horned rhinoceroses. Extinct in some parts of the sub-continent, there are now fewer than 3,000 of these animals left on the planet. But in the short space of time since I visited Kaziranga, more than 75 rhinos have been killed by poachers, a rate that has risen such that last year saw the highest number of killings in more than two decades.
The park is a UN world heritage site and an area where those animals are protected. The poaching is undoubtedly driven by the illegal trade in wild animal parts, which has never been more serious. The effects are not just catastrophic for wild animal populations, some of which are now at real risk. This hideous trade impacts on communities and fuels serious crime. The UN estimates that it is now the third most lucrative criminal activity after narcotics and human trafficking, worth a staggering $19 billion a year.
Next week, the Government will host the London conference on the illegal wildlife trade. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary for working hard to get these issues on the international agenda and securing the attendance of high-level delegates from so many Governments, including that of China. I know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has also taken a strong interest in these issues.
The conference will focus on protecting three of the most iconic species on our planet—elephants, tigers and rhinos—all of which have seen a disastrous decline in numbers in recent years. Three of the nine known sub-species of tiger became extinct during the 1980s and there may be just 3,200 left in the world. At least 10,000 are needed to secure the tiger’s long-term future, but that is impossible while they are killed for their organs and hides and their habitats continue to be damaged. Some 1,000 rhinos were killed illegally last year in South Africa alone, up from just 13 in 2007. Rhinos had been a big conservation success story in recent years, but poaching on that scale is putting their future in jeopardy. In 1979, there were estimated to be 1.3 million wild elephants in Africa: now, there are fewer than 400,000. In the last three years, elephant poaching levels in Africa have exceeded 5% of the total population, and that is horribly significant because it is a tipping point: killings are now outpacing the animals’ birth rate.
Other species are being heavily exploited by the illegal trade for traditional medicine, with turtles and seahorses harvested for food, medicine and decorative purposes, despite being protected, and 100 million sharks killed every year for their fins to be used in soup, despite an international agreement to curb that just last year. How have we got here? How have we come from an international focus on the importance of species conservation in the late 1980s and early ’90s, which saw the abolition of the ivory trade and an escalation in the number of states joining the convention on international trade in endangered species, to a situation where iconic species literally face extinction?
The international community failed to respond swiftly enough when these precipitous declines began. When we did respond, it was sometimes in the wrong way, such as when sales of ivory stockpiles were authorised in a misguided attempt to provide resources for conservation and satisfy demand for the product—an issue to which I will return in my speech.
The killing of endangered species and the sale of their parts is not just bad news for the animals themselves: it also has a devastating impact on communities. It breaks down sustainable development opportunities such as animal-related tourism, and it leaves communities at the mercy of criminal gangs. The impact of poaching can be as damaging to fragile communities as disease. New evidence has shown that countries with the highest incidences of child mortality also have the highest incidence of elephant poaching. Poverty and poor governance are the enabling factors for poaching. As MIKE— Monitoring the Illegal Killing of Elephants—the United Nations-backed programme for monitoring the illegal killing of elephants, has observed, if local communities can derive little value from animals such as elephants, but bear the costs in terms of crop damage, injury or death, incentives for conservation are lost.
Successful programmes to protect animals must find a way to realise their value, including to local communities, for instance through eco-tourism. For some, the idea of placing an economic value on wildlife is anathema. When I spoke to the Wildlife Trust of India, one member of the audience responded that their tigers were beyond value. In one sense, of course, we all see magnificent wildlife as priceless, but actually poachers put a very precise monetary value on these animals, and so long as we value them less, the poaching will continue.
The tables can be turned, however. In India I met representatives of an eco-tourism society who are literally funding poachers to become gamekeepers. Some 80 former poachers in the Manas national park now see greater value in being employed as conservation guards than in being poachers.
In recognition of the links between the availability of natural resources and economic development, part of the Government’s welcome commitment of £10 million of funding to tackle the illegal wildlife trade announced last December has been provided by the Department for International Development, but this is not aid for animals; it is aid for people.
The right principle must be to enable and support local action to conserve wildlife. Next week’s summit must consider whether the resources directed at programmes like the African elephant action plan will be sufficient. There must be a combination of resources, international leadership—as has been shown by the UK and by President Obama in the US, who last year issued an Executive order to combat wildlife trafficking—and effective monitoring of action. All three of these components matter.
The illegal trade in wildlife has another impact: crime—and serious crime, too. In 2009 I was invited to address the Wildlife Trust of India in Delhi where I drew attention to the risk that blood ivory would replace blood diamonds as a source of revenue for criminal gangs and militias. As the Foreign Secretary warned this week, there is evidence to suggest that the trade in ivory is funding terrorism. Al-Shabaab, whose attack on the Westgate shopping centre in Nairobi led to the death of 62 people, may have funded that operation with illegally obtained ivory sold on the black market to buy arms, and with the price of rhino horn on the black market now estimated at $100,000 a kilo, which is more than the price of gold or platinum, it is no surprise that the most serious criminal organisations are turning to poaching to finance their activities.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
I have been listening to my right hon. Friend’s speech, and it seems to me that the losses from poaching have got so immense now that Governments must have some involvement in this, and they may well be talking with forked tongue: on the one hand condemning it, while on the other hand allowing it to occur. Would my right hon. Friend care to comment on that?
Nick Herbert
That is an interesting intervention, but I will let the Minister reply to it, if I may.
Tackling this illegal trade can no longer be seen as a low priority. That is why I was proud that the Conservative party’s manifesto promised action through border policing, and this important commitment fed through to the Government’s new serious organised crime strategy, which explicitly mentions wildlife crime. This prioritisation of organised crime is new and it has been welcomed by WWF, and it is essential that it is turned into effective action.
Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight these connections, but he must also agree that we must put our own house in order. Is he aware that hundreds of thousands of songbirds are being killed on British sovereign territory in Cyprus, with the Ministry of Defence apparently turning a blind eye to the industrial-scale planting of acacia bushes to facilitate this, and will he join me in demanding that the MOD put a stop to this as soon as possible since it is organised crime on British sovereign territory?
Nick Herbert
My hon. Friend has made his point forcefully.
Enforcement and conservation measures, however well resourced, will never be sufficient while there is a demand for animal parts. In both the medicine and the ivory trade, seeking a reduction is not enough. As Will Travers of the Born Free Foundation has said, we need to be calling not for a reduction, but for the eradication of the trade.
We must refuse to allow cultural sensitivities to prevent us tackling so-called traditional “medicine” that does so much to fuel the illegal wildlife trade. Spurious health claims about the efficacy of rhino horn as a cure for everything from hangovers to cancer led directly to the extinction of the Javan rhino two years ago and the huge spike in killings of the African rhino. Education programmes to challenge the myth of traditional remedies are vital, and so is leadership by Governments.
Seeking an eradication is entirely incompatible with farming wild animals such as rhinos, as some have suggested, so that their parts can be sold. We must choke demand; not stoke it. That is why there should be a total ban on further ivory sales. As shadow Environment Secretary, I strongly opposed the sale of stockpiles, proposed by Tanzania and Zambia, in 2010. We took that decision because the 2008 sales were a complete failure. Far from reducing poaching, as some thought that they might, the sales led to a huge spike in killings. A report the next year showed that 38,000 elephants were then being poached a year, almost three time the level before the sales. In Sierra Leone, for example, the entire elephant herd was destroyed by poachers in the country’s only national park.
The 2008 sales were also significant in that they allowed China to participate for the first time. It purchased more than 105 tonnes of ivory, flooding the market with cheap “legitimate” ivory and stoking a demand that is now being met with poached illegal ivory. The Chinese Government’s destruction of six tonnes last month was a welcome change of emphasis, but that still leaves 99 tonnes unaccounted for. It must be a goal of next week’s conference and international agreement that there are no sales of ivory, and all stockpiles are destroyed.
In conclusion, action to oppose the illegal trade in wild animal parts is vital to conserve endangered species, to develop communities in Asia and Africa and to cut off an important source of funding to criminal and terrorist groups. I will never forget, in Kaziranga, hearing the electrifying roar of a tiger in the wild, yet seeing the sorry fate of a captive tiger orphaned by poachers. It would be a tragedy if magnificent animals such as those were lost from the wild. Next week’s conference offers a real chance to prevent that from happening.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. Regrettably, we do not have a lot of time for this important debate. Rather than have a time limit, I will ask Members to do their level best—sit down, Mr Amess, I will not forget you—to take five minutes. If each Member takes approximately five minutes, I think that we will get everyone in, including the wind-ups, by 5 o’clock. The clock is against us.
Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
I will do my best to keep within your five-minute time limit, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for nominating this important debate, particularly as it takes place the week before this most important high-level conference. It is clear that we need to send out a powerful message from this Chamber that we have to take action on illegal wildlife trade, and the conference at Lancaster House next week will be a key part in getting that action. Debating the matter today is just so important.
Today, we have seen the Paris ivory crush, which has sent out a powerful message, and we need to do something equivalent to that. In France, 3.5 tonnes of ivory has been crushed. We need to get it across to everyone involved in decision making that work must be done in this area and that political leadership is needed. We must send Government Ministers to that conference next week with everything at their disposal to ensure that we make progress.
I also want to refer to the Environmental Audit Committee report “Wildlife Crime”. It is the third report of session 2012-13. As many Members will know, we had a debate on that report in the Chamber. Our recommendations were to the Home Office, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, as the detailed evidence we received show that we need a cost-cutting response from Government. I hope that they will be the basis on which some of the work will be taken forward.
If all today’s debate does is solicit the response we have received at long last from DEFRA and the Home Office on the future of the national wildlife crime unit, at least that is a little step forward in the long journey of protecting endangered species and other wildlife. That is welcome, but the funding is still being protected only up until 2016. We need a permanent post with permanent funding that goes well beyond 2016 if we are to take the action that we need.
I desperately want the UK Government to take up the issues of protecting the environment, nature and biodiversity. I want them to do what they say and say what they do about the concerns in Parliament. Parliament has a role in showing how important that leadership will be.
First things first. As we have heard from the right hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert), who helped to secure the debate, and as we have seen from the support for early-day motion 773, tabled by the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith)—as I have said in previous debates, if elephants ever need a friend he is the right person to provide protection for them—there is a sad truth here. Although the population of elephants in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, for example, was once more than 100,000 it might now be as low as 2,500. Every 15 minutes, only three times the time we have in which to speak today, an elephant is brutally killed and butchered for its ivory tusks. In 2013 alone, 40,000 died. The global population of tigers numbers between 3,000 and 4,000.
When we deal with wildlife crime, we are dealing not just with endangered species but with international security and an illegal trade worth £19 billion annually that feeds highly organised criminal networks. For all those reasons, urgent action is needed.
The high-level conference will take place at Lancaster House next week is important. His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales has shown leadership in putting his weight behind the conference. He has shown that he cares, as he did about the flooding down in the south-west, and has been particularly active and involved in ensuring that all possible support is given to next week’s conference. That is why we must ensure that we do not let anybody down and why I feel that the other recommendations of our report must be taken forward.
I am thinking in particular about the new regulations that the Government need to introduce to update the Control of Trade in Endangered Species (Enforcement) Regulations 1997, and perhaps the Minister can refer to them when he winds up. Our report highlighted the lack of progress in that regard and I was interested to see that one reason given for not introducing the regulations—at a time when we have a Deregulation Bill, I must add—was the work for and the focus on the conference next week. We should not just have a conference; it should be matched by the work of all Government Departments. We want to hear about the review of the COTES regulations and how the new regulations will be introduced, and it is regrettable that the review has been delayed.
The conference is next week, so let me turn very briefly to the agenda—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I hope that the reference will be brief. I am avoiding setting a time limit, but I asked Members to speak for only five minutes and the clock is very clear.
Joan Walley
I shall be brief, Madam Deputy Speaker.
When I asked the Prime Minister at the Liaison Committee whether he supported the African elephant action plan he said yes. That has eight objectives, and a clear commitment to funding is needed. DFID has contributed £10 million, which will be really important, but the Born Free Foundation says that that amount is required every year for the next 10 years.
We have a clear opportunity next week to make real progress on many of the issues highlighted in the report. The clock, as you say, Madam Deputy Speaker, is ticking, not just for us here, but for these endangered species. I urge the Minister to take on board the many contributions that hon. Members have made today.
Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) on saying much of what needs to be said, making our lives and yours, I suspect, Madam Deputy Speaker, easier.
I applaud the fact that the Duke of Cambridge has joined his father, the Prince of Wales, and his father, the Duke of Edinburgh, as the third generation of royals who have chosen to participate in and throw their weight behind the London conference at Lancaster House. I hope that United for Wildlife will prove to be exactly that: an alliance of worldwide organisations and Government agencies with one clear aim in mind, which is to protect the wildlife of the world.
It is important that we seek to identify the scale of international criminality involved in this trade, as my right hon. Friend sought to do. For six years in the 1990s, I served as chairman of the all party group on animal welfare and was privileged to work closely at that time with the Environmental Investigation Agency, an incredibly brave organisation whose staff went undercover and did a huge amount at that time to seek effectively to terminate the trade in ivory, with huge success. Therefore, it is a great sadness that that trade has picked up again, largely as a result of the action of international Governments, who, as my right hon. Friend said, mistakenly chose to reintroduce the trade in ivory stocks, which led to further demand.
Points have been made about the manner in which even in the Kruger national park, for God’s sake, rhinos that were hunted in their tens five or 10 years ago are now hunted in their thousands, which is appalling. We have put so much effort into the preservation of habitat that it would be a fine irony, would it not, Madam Deputy Speaker, if we preserved the habitat but not the animals that want and need to live in it. The lions, rhinos and elephants of Africa are important magnificent beasts, as are the tigers of Asia.
There are two markets. The first is the moronic tourists who with telescopic rifles slaughter wild animals from a safe distance and then go home and brag about how brave they have been and how close they got to the kill. Those people need to be ostracised totally, and it is up to the international community to seek to control the tourist trade—I use the word “tourist” loosely—in what is revoltingly, but accurately known as “canned” hunting. These are cowardly acts and they should be condemned as such.
There is a second and much more sinister side to this, and that is the Chinese and far east mafia, who trade in rhino horn and tiger bone as traditional remedies that are no more effective or useful than your or my toenail clippings. This is criminality piggybacking on primitive culture to service a serious demand for medicine that has no medicinal value whatever. There has to be a need for concerted international effort at the highest level to stamp out this strand of crime. We fight the trade in drugs and blood diamonds, we fight money laundering and people trafficking, but while claiming that we care about the environment, the international community has paid far too little attention to our diminishing wildlife heritage and those who prey upon it.
The London conference has to deliver not a plan for talk but a plan for action, backed by hard cash and by absolutely ruthless enforcement.
Richard Benyon (Newbury) (Con)
There is nothing sadder in this House than an ex-Minister who cannot shake off his former brief. It had been my intention to widen my horizons now that I have the freedom of the Back Benches, but I could not resist joining my right hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) and the Chair of the Environmental Audit Committee in their attempt to secure this debate, and I am delighted that we were successful.
I am particularly delighted that there is now a cross-Government approach to dealing with this problem and that it is no longer viewed simply as an environmental one. It is fundamentally an economic, social and security issue. I am very pleased that the Minister for Government Policy will respond to the debate, which demonstrates the cross-Government value of our deliberations in the context of next week’s conference. It mirrors what is happening in other countries. For example, the leadership shown by Secretary Clinton and now Secretary Kerry is drawing together what is happening not only across the United States Government, but internationally. There is also the leadership shown by Bob Zoellick, who cares about this passionately, when he chaired the World Bank.
Last year I attended a United Nations Environment Programme conference in Nairobi on behalf of the Government. I took some time to go and see some of the partnership working that will tackle the problem. I visited a wonderful project run by the International Fund for Animal Welfare, in partnership with the Kenya Wildlife Service, at Amboseli. I saw how a really well thought through partnership process between a non-governmental organisation and a Government body can deliver protection on the ground.
I also visited the Northern Rangelands Trust and saw how it is working with local people across a vast area of northern Kenya, providing them with a better price for their cattle, better grazing for their cattle, water supplies for their village and building schools, all under the umbrella of protecting wildlife. That was being delivered on the ground among people who live on less than a dollar a day. It is about joining up all the factors behind the problems we face in the illegal wildlife trade.
I will never forget the image of President Moi setting fire to Kenya’s stockpile of ivory in 1989. That sent a message around the world that the trade in ivory is wrong, that it is illegal and that it must stop. I applaud the Government of Kenya, the Government of Zambia and, in particular, the Government of Gabon, who have shown great leadership in this matter. I applaud other Governments beyond range states, such as those of the Philippines, the Indian state of Maharashtra and the United States for destroying theirs. China is stepping up to the mark by coming to the conference and talking meaningfully about ending the trade and destroying some of its stockpiles. As we have heard, France is doing the same.
The underlying point about the conference is that we must support the African elephant action plan. We must see it as an African initiative supported by countries around the world that have stockpiles. We must recognise the cost and impact of those stockpiles, because they give the promise of a market in countries where ivory is still used for aesthetic purposes. We all know that it has a devastating effect. I have been sent some terrible statistics. In 1976 there were 120,000 elephants in Tanzania’s Selous national park. In 2007 that number was down to 55,000. Last year it was 13,000. It is at a tipping point. We risk seeing wholesale extinctions on our watch in certain African countries.
We should not be thinking only about Africa, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs reminded us. A wonderful organisation called Elephant Family reminds us that Asian elephants are also poached for ivory. Many of our constituents visit countries, such as Thailand, and take part in tourist opportunities involving tame elephants that might have been brutally captured in countries such as Burma. That is having a devastating effect on those countries as well.
The Government should be congratulated on a number of initiatives. My right hon. Friend talked about MIKE. Operation Wisdom is an international policing operation tracking down the perpetrators of this crime. The British Army is supporting Governments, such as that of Kenya, in their efforts. There are many other initiatives. The conference is the zenith of some of those initiatives, drawing them together and trying to ensure that we work collectively to bring an end to the trade.
Seizures in the UK of ivory and other products from endangered species are also a factor. They are still seized at our borders, and we have to raise awareness of that. I have already spoken about ivory poaching in Asia.
We are short of time, so I will end by quoting the words of Will Travers, who said on the 30th anniversary of “Born Free”:
“No more one-off sales. No more concessions to trade. No more ivory tusks being sold at…$700 a pound. Only then will the message be clear”.
The message is that we have to bring an end to this trade. I cannot put it better than that. We must not miss the opportunity given by the conference in London. We support the Government in their endeavours to bring together this international effort that can lead to real progress being made.
Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)
I congratulate right hon. and hon. Members on initiating this very important debate and on their excellent speeches. The appalling reality is that even if this House were full today, each of the 650 or so Members of Parliament could deliver a bespoke speech on wildlife crime without once repeating anyone else’s words. The natural world is under siege. Countless iconic species—we have heard endless examples today—are teetering on the edge of extinction.
The tragedy is that the worse the problem becomes, the harder it is to address, because the closer an endangered animal moves towards extinction, the greater its market value. People used to buy rhino horns mainly for medicine, and many still do, but increasingly people now buy them as an investment. During the second half of 2011, rhino horn auction lots surged by 67% on mainland China. In effect, people are betting their money on the extinction of species and hoping for such an extinction in order to boost their investments. I cannot imagine anything more revolting, but it happens.
I will focus on one aspect of this horror story which has already been covered in some detail—the illegal trade in ivory. Africa has lost an astonishing 90% of its elephants in the past half century. In the 1970s, Chad alone had 400,000 elephants; today, that is the entire population of elephants in the wild in all 38 range states in Africa. Chad’s elephant population is now in the low hundreds. We will remember that in March, 88 elephants were butchered in the space of one week—33 of them, we are told, pregnant females. We have heard the figures: 40,000 elephants killed a year, or one every 15 minutes. Members can do the rest of the maths for themselves. The situation is just as dire in Asia. According to the Elephant Family charity, there are only 1,200 breeding males left in India. It is an unspeakable catastrophe.
Elephants are among the most thoughtful, intelligent and fascinating creatures. If anyone doubts that, I recommend that they look up a story I became aware of only a few days ago about two crippled old circus elephants, Jenny and Shirley. It is worth looking it up on the internet; it has been written about all over the place. The elephants met 30 years ago in a circus. Jenny was a little baby, and the older elephant became something of a surrogate mother for her. Jenny was eventually sent off to a different circus, but 20 years later they were reunited—old and damaged from the activities in which they had engaged in the circus—in a lovely sanctuary in Tennessee. There are simply no words to describe the obvious intensity of the love they had for each other for their remaining 10 years. I am not even going to try to describe it, but I encourage anyone watching this debate please to look it up. Watch it yourself, Madam Deputy Speaker, and weep.
Then we should remember that these animals are being butchered for trinkets such as toothpicks and chopsticks—nothing more noble, special or important than that. We should remember, too, that between the wilds of Africa and the mantelpiece, where these things often end up, there is a vortex of violent organised crime, with much of the proceeds funding terrorism. The truth is that when a consumer buys a piece of ivory, they might as well be putting money in a collection tin for al-Qaeda, or buying guns for Joseph Kony’s slave children or for Sudan’s vicious Janjaweed. We have already heard about al-Shabaab, which was responsible for the atrocities in Nairobi—a massacre funded by blood ivory. If anyone is tempted to imagine that this is not an issue for us, let them at least make those links and recognise that the ivory trade makes our world a lot less safe.
Next week we can take a giant step towards resolving this issue, or at least beginning to resolve it. We know that it is possible. As we have heard, the world nearly put an end to the international ivory trade when it was banned in 1989. Poaching did not end, but it dropped off dramatically and the black market ivory prices slumped. Then, of course, we had the one-off sales and the black market roared back into action. It was stimulated by the existence of the legitimate market and was able to flourish under the disguise of the legal trade. According to the formidable Will Travers, who has already been cited three times today and is sitting up in the Gallery with his daughter, more elephant tusks were seized in 2011 than in any year since the ban.
As world leaders convene in London next week, we know what needs to be done: an international ban on all forms of ivory trade, and that cannot be achieved without China. The good news is that things are beginning to happen. The country’s largest online marketplace, Taobao—the equivalent of eBay—has banned a very wide range of wildlife products, including ivory. That suggests a change in the culture of Chinese consumers, with a bit of help from the magnificent International Fund for Animal Welfare, which has been campaigning there. The Chinese Government also destroyed 33 tonnes of ivory, but the state itself still owns 30 ivory carving factories. The simple fact remains that unless they turn their attention to the legal trade, the extinction of elephants will be assured. That has to be a prime focus at the summit.
My final point relates to the African elephant action plan, which has already been discussed at some length, so I will be brief. It is supported by all 38 African elephant range states, which I think is a first. I am pleased to see that the Minister for Government Policy will be responding to the debate, and I ask him to note that 126 Members have signed an early-day motion calling on the Government to use Department for International Development funds to ramp up support for the plan. It requires £200 million over 10 years— £20 million per year—and, in the context of our aid budget and that of other countries, that is a reasonable price to pay, given the benefits it would bring to people and, as we have heard, to nature. I am not suggesting that we go it alone, but we can take the lead, as we are already doing. The condition would be unanimous support for at least a 10-year moratorium.
The Secretary of State for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Foreign Secretary have shown extraordinary leadership in recent months and I am really grateful for that, as I am sure is everyone else present, but next week’s summit is only the beginning and we must follow it through to the end.
Sir John Randall (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) and others, including the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley), on securing this very important debate. It is a privilege to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith). If only I had his oratorical skills to get my passion across: the passion is in there, burning, but I just cannot always get it out.
I am delighted to see my right hon. Friend the Minister for Government Policy. That shows just how seriously this Government are taking this important issue, which matters to so many thousands of people in this country.
I am delighted that the Government will host this important conference and I hope that a really good declaration will come out of it—perhaps something along the lines of the Marrakesh declaration, which was a 10-step action plan launched by the African Development Bank in May 2013.
Yesterday, the Government published a document on their commitment to action on the illegal wildlife trade. I echo the sentiments of the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North on the funding for the national wildlife crime unit. That is a good step, but in order to achieve some continuity the funding has to have a bit more longevity.
Members have spoken passionately about the ivory trade—it is a real issue—but I want to highlight briefly some lesser known, but equally important, areas of wildlife crime. Vultures in southern Africa are on the brink of extinction because of the use of carbofuran, a poison that poachers use when they have slaughtered an elephant or rhino in order to expressly kill vultures whose presence gives away their crime.
Most birds around the world are threatened by the use of illegal poisons, as well as by shooting, and we should remember that this country also has a problem with wildlife crime against raptors. In particular, I make no apology for reminding the House about the fate of the hen harrier in our own uplands. Last year, the Law Commission recognised that the liability for bird of prey persecution needs to be extended, through a legal concept known as vicarious liability, to landowners who allow their gamekeepers to use illegal techniques. I hope our Government are at least looking carefully at that recommendation. Bird of prey persecution is a serious organised crime and I think that the responsibility for leading the enforcement responses should lie with the National Crime Agency, with the national wildlife crime unit providing intelligence support.
I want to draw the House’s attention to the poaching of saiga antelopes for their horns. Saiga antelopes are unusual and rather enigmatic creatures. For those who do not know what they are, they look like antelopes with huge swollen snouts, and only the males grow horns. After the ban on rhino horn in 1993, saiga horn became a substitute in traditional Chinese medicine, and their numbers in their native central Asian steppes declined alarmingly—down by 95% by 2000. There has since been a slight increase in their numbers, but they need protection as they again face pressure from poaching. We all know about the threat to the tiger population, and that iconic species is pretty near the top of my priorities, but we have to remember the less glamorous but no less important species throughout the world.
I look forward to hearing from the conference not just warm words, but real action worldwide, so that wildlife crime—as we have heard, it is linked to terrorism and organised crime, so it is an important and serious area of crime—can be thwarted and future generations can enjoy sharing the planet with rhinos, elephants, tigers, hen harriers and even my old friends the saiga antelopes.
One of the things I wanted to do when I entered the House was to speak up for wildlife. I have been lucky enough to go round Britain and the world to see such animals, and I want to make sure that other people and future generations can enjoy also them.
Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)
I am delighted to speak in this very important debate. I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) and other hon. Members for securing it.
It is our duty, as it was that of previous generations, to preserve the natural world and all its wonders for our children and grandchildren who will follow us, but given how disastrous a year 2013 was for rhino populations—the number of animals poached in South Africa was the highest for some years—it has become clear that such a legacy is under threat. Like other hon. Members, I have been very lucky in seeing these animals in the wild. I have always found rhinos particularly majestic, but unassuming—they just get on with their lives. According to reports from the Wildlife Conservation Society, more than 1,600 rhinos have been poached for their horns during the past two years, and it is estimated that only 5,000 black rhinos are alive in the wild.
Although the toll taken by poaching on animal populations and biodiversity is undoubtedly its worst effect, many other aspects of the crime affect the human population, both internationally and locally. As my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) mentioned, the terrible assault in the Nairobi mall last year, in which 67 people were killed, was carried out by the militant terrorist group al-Shabaab. The charity the Elephant Action League estimates that 40% of al-Shabaab’s funds come directly from the ivory trade. It therefore follows that the illegal trade in rhino horn contributes to some of its revenue. The UN Secretary-General, Ban Ki-moon, has recently highlighted the link between poaching and terrorism, alleging that even al-Qaeda benefits from the trade.
More generally, the increase in poaching is of concern from the perspective of international development. It is well documented that guerrilla organisations, such as the Lord’s Resistance Army, have supported themselves financially by poaching. We are all aware of the horrendous practices that Joseph Kony and his army have wreaked on the people of central African states, taking children from their families and abducting, raping and disfiguring countless women. It is therefore reasonable to assume that if there was better wildlife policing in such areas, poaching could be reduced and such atrocities might become less frequent.
I believe that poaching is a surmountable social evil. Nevertheless, given that the number of rhinos killed by poachers is 1,000% higher than it was at the start of the century, it seems that measures other than policing strategies and surveillance are needed to prevent poaching. The high value of rhino horns, elephant tusks and other animal parts means that poachers now use helicopters to get in and out very quickly, before gamekeepers can find them. The fact that they can get in and out so easily is a major problem, because the money they make from poaching represents what they might earn in six years in a normal job, if indeed they have one. The value of the horn is a huge problem. We will not stop the demand for it, but we must tackle the root of the problem, which is poverty. We could mitigate the impact of rhino poaching not only on the species itself, but on the human population in the areas that are affected. Misinformation about the medicinal properties of rhino horn does not help. I think that it was the President of Sri Lanka who said that the powder from the horn had cured his cancer. That is not only wrong, but it perpetrates the myth.
We must not be complacent and think that poaching is confined to far-away countries. I was shocked to learn that rhinos in British zoos have been threatened by poaching when I met Damian Aspinall, the chairman of the Aspinall Foundation and the owner of Port Lympne wild animal park. The Aspinall Foundation does wonderful conservation work. In 2012, it collaborated with DHL, the logistics company, to introduce three of Lympne park’s black rhinos into the protected environment on the reserve of Tony Fitzjohn in Tanzania. Eventually, they will be released into the wild.
I was shocked to learn that in March last year, staff at Lympne park were notified that an attempt would be made on the rhinos in the park. Although it may seem perplexing and even slightly ridiculous that such an attempt would be made in this country, it is sadly not as unlikely or rare as it sounds. In 2012, the national wildlife crime unit issued a warning to all British zoos, encouraging them to increase security measures to prevent such crimes.
Mr Aspinall discussed with me the extreme lengths to which some game reserves are going to protect their rhinos. In 2013, the Sabi Sand game reserve in South Africa began injecting its rhinos’ horns with parasites. That has no effect on the rhinos, but when the rhino horn is ingested in medicine, it can cause serious illness to the consumer. Mr Aspinall rightly thinks that there must be a better way to tackle the problem, because the consumer buys the product in good faith—stupidly, perhaps, but in good faith—and the poison might unintentionally have a more serious effect.
It is important that pressure is brought to bear on countries that import rhino horn to stop the trade and for Governments to assist zoos in their countries to keep the animals safe. I am delighted that Prince William is helping to raise awareness of the plight of rhinos by joining a charity. His interest will make even more people aware of the issue. There is an urgent need to deal with poaching because of the risk that it poses to international security and anti-terrorism efforts, and because of the effects that this awful trade has on communities in the affected countries.
Next week’s conference is timely. I am sure that the Minister will take all the issues that hon. Members have raised to that conference and stress how important they are to the future of wildlife.
Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) on securing this debate and the Backbench Business Committee, of which I am a member, on its good sense in scheduling it. I agree with everything that my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline Latham) said.
I want to do everything that I can to protect wildlife in this country. Through the good offices of Mr Attenborough, a whole new generation of people have been introduced to the joy of wildlife. The message that that one individual has managed to convey to so many people is very important indeed.
In 2002, I modestly introduced a ten-minute rule Bill called the Endangered Species (Illegal Trade) Bill. It was sponsored by none other than Miss Ann Widdecombe. We went to Heathrow airport to examine the ill-gotten gains of the trade. I am very disappointed that international wildlife crime has developed as it has in the 12 years since. In particular, I am very disappointed in my lack of influence in this regard, but never mind.
Unfortunately, as the Foreign Secretary said in his speech on this issue in September, the trade is “booming”. It is impossible accurately to assess the figures, but the trade was estimated to be worth £5 billion in 2002 and it is now estimated to have grown to £12 billion. It is the world’s fourth largest criminal market after drugs, counterfeiting and human trafficking. It is absolutely appalling.
An example of the sheer scale of the problem is shown in the recent announcement by the convention on the international trade in endangered species of wild fauna and flora—CITES—which last year had the highest level of ivory seizures for 25 years: 41.6 tonnes. As other Members have said, it is estimated that 22,000 elephants were killed in Africa two years ago out of a population 500,000. Yesterday, I saw on the front of the Daily Mirror a Kenyan poacher who boasted that he had personally slaughtered more than 70 elephants. He commented that the elephants screamed as they died but said:
“To me, this was just business.”
Such stories are truly shocking, and the figures are mindboggling. If we do not take action soon, wild species and their communities face irreversible damage. Once they are gone, we will never get those species back.
It is encouraging that the level of commitment to this issue by Governments, enforcement bodies and NGOs has increased hugely over the past 10 years, and I commend the UK Border Force for its work on the seizure of illegal ivory, particularly last year when 80.7 kg of illegal ivory was seized at British airports. The UK Government are truly leading the way in tackling international wildlife crime, and we should be proud of that. The report released today by the Government entitled “The UK commitment to action on the illegal wildlife trade”, and the upcoming summit, are a testament to the Government’s commitment.
I hope that the conference acts as a monitor of current progress on the implementation of commitments, and ensures that sufficient action is taken to improve enforcement, reduce demand for illegal products, and support sustainable economic development. To ensure that, however, we must invest for the long term and I encourage the Government to do even more. They have already pledged £10 million to end illegal wildlife trading, but I hope they are prepared to do even more.
I was happy to see today that the Government have announced continued support and funding for the work of the International Consortium on Combating Wildlife Crime, as well as a commitment to fund the national wildlife crime unit until 2016—splendid news. However, it is important to guarantee long-term sustainable funding for the NWCU, to ensure real stability and certainty post-2016. Will the Minister comment on that?
To be more effective in tackling international wildlife crime, collaboration is vital within and between Governments, as it is with NGOs and enforcement bodies. Because so many related issues are involved with international wildlife crime, many different Departments are required to collaborate The establishment of a cross-departmental taskforce on wildlife trafficking is very much a step in the right direction. I hope that the group encourages and co-ordinates activities to tackle the issue both nationally and internationally, leading to an eventual cross-governmental action plan for which it would then be held accountable.
On prosecution, it is important that illicit wildlife trafficking is treated with the same level of consideration as other transnational crimes, and that targets are set. I hope that the Ministry of Justice and the Crown Prosecution Service can commit to that. Will the Minister assure the House that tough maximum penalties are available to tackle wildlife crime? For prosecutions for such crimes to be conducted more effectively, the judiciary must be strengthened through greater awareness. Therefore, the Sentencing Council should introduce sentencing guidelines for the judiciary on wildlife crime, and the Magistrates’ Association, which is very important on this issue, should implement training for magistrates.
Joan Walley
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that many of the recommendations in the Environmental Audit Committee’s report touch on the points he is making and, if implemented, could take us even further down the road? There are recommendations that the Government still have not taken on board, and they still need to be taken on board.
Mr Amess
I absolutely acknowledge the work of the hon. Lady’s Committee and I am aware of the point she makes. I am sure my right hon. Friend has heard what she has said.
The review and update of the control of trade in endangered species regulations announced today is a positive step and has been a long time coming. However, from the document the time scale is not clear, so I wonder whether my right hon. Friend might say something on that.
In conclusion, it is clear that we are starting to make some progress in tackling international wildlife crime, and we have come a long way since the ten-minute rule Bill I tried to introduce 12 years ago. However, there is still more that we can do and we need to ensure long-term funding, and tough and effective prosecution. We need to continue to adopt an ever-greater collaborative and joined-up approach to tackle this issue. This conference provides a wonderful opportunity to do so.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. Before I call the Front Benchers to respond I feel that Members are entitled to an explanation. We have reached the winding-up speeches a little faster than I had anticipated because some Members indicated that they wanted to speak and then left the Chamber. That just shows the difficulty of the Chair trying to be fair to everybody. I am sure that both Front Benchers will be generous with interventions, should further points need to be made.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
I, too, congratulate the right hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) on securing this very important and timely debate. I also congratulate the Chair of the Environmental Audit Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley), on all the work that she and her Committee have done. I am mindful of the warning from the hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) about ex-Ministers and their briefs, so I will try to confine my remarks in that respect.
We have heard some excellent speeches on how wildlife crime is a threat to important species and habitats both in the UK and around the world. The Environmental Audit Committee inquiry into wildlife crime, published in September 2012, welcomed the significant progress made since its predecessor Committee’s recommendations in 2004. It also made key recommendations on the steps that must be taken if the UK Government’s international leadership on wildlife crime is to be maintained and extended.
Unfortunately, I do not think we have seen enough progress in responding to that very clear and coherent set of recommendations. In fact, my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North, the Chair of the Committee, is on record as having described the Government’s response as “a missed opportunity'” that showed
“the Government have not considered the matter in the cross-cutting way that is now needed given the urgent threat to endangered species.”—[Official Report, 10 October 2013; Vol. 568, c. 148WH.]
At this point, I must welcome the Minister for Government Policy. He is from the Cabinet Office, which shows some of that cross-cutting responsibility. By my reckoning, however, eight of the 11 recommendations made by the Committee on enforcement have still not been accepted.
Joan Walley
I can see a reaction among those on the Government Benches, but the important point is that the Committee’s inquiry showed that this is a cross-cutting issue. We cannot just have a response from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs or the Home Office: there needs to be a joined-up response. When we made the application to the Backbench Business Committee, we requested that a member of the Cabinet be here to ensure an all-inclusive, coherent approach from the Government, and I welcome the fact that the Minister is here today.
Barry Gardiner
I hope the debate provides the spur to action that is needed. I hope that in his closing speech the Minister will set out in more detail what further action the Government intend to take to address specifically the recommendations in the EAC’s report, and to ensure that the UK is playing its full part in the fight against international wildlife crime.
The task ahead of us remains significant. In the past two years alone, more than 1,600 rhinos have been slaughtered by poachers, according to reports from the Wildlife Conservation Society, the International Union for Conservation of Nature and other organisations. Moreover, about 1,000 park rangers have died in the past decade defending these animals, and I pay tribute to the Daily Mirror’s campaign this week highlighting the sacrifices of rangers and their families.
Illegal wildlife trade continues to generate an estimated $20 billion each year for the criminal gangs and terrorist groups who perpetrate this evil, and that does not even include the products of the illegal timber trade or illegal fishing. Those figures should give a sense of urgency and timeliness, not just to this debate but to the Government’s response. I am proud that the previous Government made important progress in helping to shape the international effort to tackle wildlife crime. As a Minister, I had the privilege of releasing two white rhinos back into the wild in Kruger national park in 2006. It was a wonderful, if—I confess—a slightly scary moment. Close up, they are enormous.
The following year, I represented the UK at CITES CoP—conference of parties—14, in The Hague, where we resolved to strengthen national legislation and penalties to deter illegal wildlife trade; to strengthen public understanding of the benefits of sustainable international trade and of the negative impacts of illegal wildlife trade; and to increase the provision of financial resources for the operation and implementation of CITES. CITES trade regulations now apply to about 35,000 species, about 3% of which are prohibited, which is significant progress, but the fact remains that many species traded internationally play an important role in the provision of ecosystems services and in supporting local livelihoods, so ensuring that the use of, and trade in, these species is legal and sustainable has many and much wider benefits for the local communities and countries of which they are such icons.
I am proud that, alongside our international work, the previous Government set up the national wildlife crime unit in 2006, which is now responsible for assisting with the enforcement of wildlife law and the prevention of wildlife crimes. It is important to understand that its work does not stop at the UK’s borders, and that it has a vital role in reducing the demand for the products of wildlife crime and in targeting UK citizens involved in the international trade.
Despite these steps forward, however, as the Environmental Audit Committee has said, there is a risk that further progress will not be made without clear action from the Government. It is vital that there be no let up in our efforts. Wildlife crime in Africa poses a clear threat, not just to internationally important species but to the whole security of the region. Some of the comments from hon. Members about al-Shabaab, al-Qaeda and others reinforced that point. The UK must, therefore, continue to meet its obligations to clamp down on the trade in the products of wildlife crime, including elephant ivory and rhino horn. Poaching remains a serious problem in Africa. It has strong links to drug and human trafficking and terrorism, as hon. Members have said.
The London conference on illegal wildlife trade, hosted by the Prince of Wales, is, as everyone has acknowledged, a tremendous opportunity to gather together international experts to work together on this issue. I echo the remarks by the Chair of the Environmental Audit Committee about how fortunate we are to have, in the Prince of Wales, someone showing the leadership that he continually does on these issues. The conference is a perfect opportunity for some key pledges to be made. It is time to build on the UK’s strong international reputation, achieved—I hope the Minister will agree—thanks to the diplomatic efforts of previous Governments.
My experience of the international negotiations on wildlife crime is that the countries with the credibility required to improve global law enforcement and to reduce global demand are those that walk the walk. It is the job of the Minister for Government Policy to ensure that our commitment to tackling international wildlife crime continues to have real substance. The substance will not come simply from hosting conferences, important as the London conference clearly is; it will come from delivering. I hope that the Minister will answer some specific questions about how that delivery will be achieved.
The Government’s decision to make the need to reduce demand for illegal wildlife products one of the main goals of the conference is very welcome. Will the Minister tell us what the Government aim to achieve in terms of the strengthening of CITES trade regulations? As has already been said today, the Government’s response to these challenges requires a co-ordinated approach across Whitehall. Does the Minister accept the Environmental Audit Committee’s finding that the Government are failing to work effectively because Departments are not co-operating? Can he describe the conversations that he has had with his colleagues in the Ministry of Defence, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Home Office and the Foreign Office about improving the Government’s co-ordinated, joined-up response? What, specifically, does he intend to do to ensure better, outcome-focused joint work between DEFRA, the MOD, the Foreign Office and Home Office to ensure that that improvement takes place?
Richard Benyon
Does the hon. Gentleman, like me, welcome the fact that there is now a Cabinet Committee, chaired by the Foreign Secretary, which draws together DEFRA, the Department for International Development, and other Departments to deal with precisely the issue that he has identified? That has been a real game-changer in helping to develop the different approach of which I spoke earlier.
Barry Gardiner
I do welcome that. It is vital that such sharing take place across Departments, but it must be focused on action and enforcement. That is why I mentioned the Select Committee’s 11 recommendations, only eight of which, I believe, have been accepted by the Government. There is more work to be done. I accept that cross-cutting work is now beginning to take place, but it must focus on action.
The challenge of international wildlife crime also requires a co-ordinated response across the European Union. Does the Minister recognise that, whatever we are dealing with—from illegal fishing off the coast of Africa to the effect of new consumer demand for illegal rhino poaching—the UK will have the greatest effect when it works as part of a European community through initiatives such as CITES?
The Select Committee has made a strong case for bringing together existing disparate pieces of law governing the protection of wildlife. What progress does the Government expect to make, before the election next year, on the Law Commission’s review of wildlife law?
Zac Goldsmith
The hon. Gentleman has just mentioned illegal fishing in Africa. Does he acknowledge that, just as there are undeniable links between the ivory trade and terrorism, there are clear links between overfishing by illegal vessels in African coastal waters and the rise of piracy and terrorism? The rise of piracy in Somalia is linked almost exactly with the collapse of the country’s fish stocks, and the same now seems to be happening in Senegal, where 50,000 fishermen have warned their Government that if foreign vessels continue to deplete their oceans, they will adapt as the Somali fishermen have adapted, and become pirates. It is a security issue as well.
Barry Gardiner
I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. I enjoyed his collection of all that information, and his presentation of it to the House. He is absolutely right: when we look at Somalian piracy, we see that the conflicts in the horn of Africa have been driven constantly by environmental degradation. If only a fraction of the money spent by our Navy, and the navies of the world, on policing vessels that pass through the straits there—the costs of increased insurance for ships, for instance—were invested in resolving the environmental problems, we should be in a much better position.
Richard Benyon
May I ask whether the hon. Gentleman also welcomes one of the steps taken at last year’s CITES meeting? A number of maritime species were listed for the first time, including several shark species, in particular the hammerhead shark. I hope that that process will continue at future CITES meetings.
Barry Gardiner
The hon. Gentleman speaks with great knowledge of and authority on these matters. He has thrown his own cautionary tale to the winds by continuing to intervene, but he is very welcome to do so. He has made a very good point, and I absolutely agree with him. I know that if my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), the shadow Foreign Office Minister, were here now, she would have made some comments about that. She was speaking to me only last night about how the practice of illegal shark-finning needs to be addressed. I wholeheartedly endorse what the hon. Member for Newbury has said.
The Environmental Audit Committee has made a strong case for bringing together existing disparate pieces of law governing the protection of wildlife. What progress do the Government expect to make on the Law Commission review of wildlife law before the election? What is the Government’s view of the specific recommendations in the Law Commission’s interim statement on wildlife crime? There are specific issues involved, including the updating of species listing and the substitution of “deliberate” for “intentionally”. The Law Commission intends to produce draft legislation alongside its final report this summer. Will the Government enable pre-legislative scrutiny of that draft legislation? It would be really helpful if the Minister could answer those questions this afternoon.
There are real concerns that the national wildlife crime unit, set up by the last Government, has been undermined by decisions taken by Ministers. The Environmental Audit Committee specifically warned that the lack of a long-term funding agreement was making it hard for the unit to recruit, retain and develop the specialist staff required to detect and prevent wildlife crime. The Minister should be aware of the claims that the unit has found it difficult to appoint a wildlife crime internet researcher precisely for that reason.
I am delighted to see the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice), in his place on the Front Bench today. In a Westminster Hall debate in October last year, he agreed that the Government needed to
“reach a decision on the future of the unit as soon as possible.”—[Official Report, 10 October 2013; Vol. 568, c. 145WH.]
I welcome the fact that the Government managed to reach a decision before this debate. I also welcome the fact that they managed to publish the decision before the debate, albeit at 5.30 yesterday evening. Given the Government’s record, a gap of five months between a Minister calling for a decision and a decision being published might be the best we can expect. The decision is welcome, none the less.
This shows the value of Back-Bench debates and the power that the Backbench Business Committee has to get the Government to address an issue. I see the hon. Member for Southend West (Mr Amess), who sits on that Committee, nodding in agreement. Without the deadline of this debate—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. Is the hon. Gentleman about to conclude his remarks? At this rate, we will not hear the Minister.
Barry Gardiner
I am concluding my remarks, Madam Deputy Speaker. You had indicated that the time available had expanded—
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. I was not indicating that the hon. Gentleman’s time had expanded. I was explaining to Back Benchers, in this Back-Bench debate, that they might have had a little more time if some of their colleagues were courteous and said that they were not going to participate in the debate. The time constraints might then have been different. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could conclude so that we can hear the Minister.
Barry Gardiner
I will indeed. I was simply about to afford the hon. Member for Southend West the opportunity to intervene, as you had suggested.
This important debate follows an excellent report by the Environmental Audit Committee. The Government’s formal response to that report did not provide clear answers to the issues raised, but I hope that the Minister for Government Policy will do that today, as well as answering the clear questions I have asked and addressing the many excellent points made in contributions from both sides of the House during the debate. I again congratulate the right hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs on initiating the debate, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.
The Minister for Government Policy (Mr Oliver Letwin)
It is a pleasure to participate in a debate in which there is considerable consensus. I am enormously grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert), my hon. Friends the Members for North Thanet (Sir Roger Gale), for Newbury (Richard Benyon) and for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Sir John Randall) and my hon. Friends the Members for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline Latham) and for Southend West (Mr Amess) for illustrating extraordinarily well the issues before us. In every case, they did so with personal commitment and passion, and also with some charm. It is notable that so many Members wished to participate in a debate of this kind.
I also very much welcome the contribution of the Chairman of the Environmental Audit Committee, the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley). She and others pointed out that is was an auspicious day on which to hold this debate, given that it is the day on which France has joined China and the United States—in anticipation, we think, of Hong Kong—in destroying stocks. We should be very glad that is happening, but we still face considerable danger. Many points were illustrated beautifully in the speeches made, but one did not emerge and everyone in the Chamber is conscious of it: the appendix II countries are prohibited from further sale only up to 2017 and, as we saw from the one-off sale in 2008, that presents a significant risk. I understand that there are some 300,000 elephants in appendix II countries, so this is a serious issue.
Everyone who spoke in the debate is aware, as I suspect are many hundreds of thousands of our fellow citizens, of the extent of the impoverishment of our world that occurs as biodiversity reduces. We are not just talking about some striking animals; we are in serious peril of major extinctions. Rhino extinctions may happen very soon, but even elephant extinctions may not be too far off if we do not act properly. So it is right that the Government, the European Union and the world should take action, and those are the three levels at which we are trying to act.
As for cross-government participation in trying to solve this problem, an issue that has come up repeatedly, the first point to make is that this Government have, for the first time, established the right kind of machinery, with the inter-ministerial group, to which attention has been drawn. This is not just any old ministerial group; it is chaired by the Foreign Secretary, and relevant Secretaries of State serve on it. We are systematically going through all the issues that emerge, and it is out of that group that the idea of the international conference was carried forward by the Government. Many hon. Members have rightly paid tribute to His Royal Highness and to the royal family as a whole. They are, of course, an inspiration on this, but it is through the inter-ministerial group that the Government have taken the idea in hand and organised what will be a major conference.
It is also through that group that we are monitoring the activity of government in the domestic sphere. I will deal with that first and then return to the issue of the international conference towards the end of my remarks. The great bulk of the Environmental Audit Committee’s recommendations have already been responded to positively. That is the case, above all, on the funding for the unit in the Home Office and, indeed, the recreation of an internet monitoring post within that unit. I take the point made by several of my hon. Friends, the Chairman of the Committee and the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), that the unit needs to be a permanent feature of the scene. I am personally committed to that view, although I cannot commit the next Chancellor of the Exchequer to it. I do not know who that is going to be, although I very much hope it will be the current one, but I cannot commit whoever that is to what happens post-2016, nor can anybody else in this House yet. However, I can certainly say that wherever I am sitting in this House and whatever I am doing at that time, I shall be arguing for a continuation of that unit. I rather suspect, having listened to the remarks made by hon. Members from across the House, that that is a matter of some consensus, so I guess that whoever is in the next Government will continue that unit, and I certainly think they need to do so.
A great many questions have been asked about the consolidation of the various laws. That comes in two parts, the first of which is the Law Commission activity. That is the easy bit, for us here at least, because the Law Commission is in charge of that, not the Government. As everybody in the House will be aware, the Law Commission intends to complete its work by the summer, and it would be an impertinence for me to say anything further than that that is what we have been told. I can certainly give the Opposition spokesman the undertaking that once it has produced its recommendations, we will seek to find a means of those being subject to proper pre-legislative scrutiny. That is a sensible thing to do with a Law Commission product.
The second part falls to us, as the Government, to conduct, and I refer to the consolidation of regulations. The Select Committee rightly drew a good deal of attention to that, and it is part of the red tape challenge. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North and I were both involved in the debate on the Deregulation Bill just a few days ago. I have spent a good many hours of my life in the last few years pursuing the red tape challenge, and one part of that is the consolidation of these regulations. We intend to pursue that. I am applying some gentle pressure on my colleagues in DEFRA to proceed with that at pace and I hope that we will be able to issue a consultation paper in the spring. I fully intend that we should complete the process by Christmas. I can therefore give the undertaking that the Opposition spokesman seeks—that we will seek to complete the process by the end of this Parliament.
It is also strikingly important that we continue to work on these issues of domestic enforcement and regulation across all Departments. As my hon. Friends and Opposition Members have said, every Department of state has to participate in that effort in different ways. The point of the inter-ministerial group is to ensure that happens.
I turn now to the international conference, the international leadership that this country is demonstrating and the question of what we hope to achieve. My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park, in a characteristically charming and vivid presentation, rightly said—echoed by others—that we should not assume that a conference is enough. Of course it is not, and nor would a series of conferences be, although incidentally I hope that the conference will become an institution and happen year after year, in parallel with the CITES conferences of parties. Nevertheless, the conference can, if we are both lucky and active, become a major watershed. We can achieve things by ending the conference with some clear statements of ambition and intention on the part of the very wide set of countries attending. It is not a conference of a few countries—many are coming and at very senior levels.
What are we seeking to achieve? As several hon. Members have said, there are three parts to this and I shall dwell briefly on each. The first is better enforcement, which has to be done on a global scale. We are contributing significantly to what I might call the war effort. My hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet described the extraordinary courage of some of the people involved in enforcement. It is not an easy thing to do—I think someone mentioned that around 1,000 law enforcement officers in this area have been killed. It is not a pleasant kind of policing. It requires money, political will and activity on the ground. We very much hope that the conference will bring together all those elements and take us forward into a better, more permanent enforcement, which should also include the permanency of limitations or bans on trade. That is what we want to see.
To make that work, the two other elements have to be in place. I was gratified that I was unable to discern any disagreement between hon. Members on either side on this point. We have simultaneously to achieve some significant and lasting reduction on the pull side—demand—and a serious-minded, sustainable alternative for indigenous populations that rely at present on this trade, in one way or another, for a large part of their income, with all the ghastly consequences that have been so well sketched by many hon. Members today.
The question of demand reduction is extraordinarily sensitive, especially for us, because it is not in the UK that the demand exists. It is not for us to lecture other countries about how to conduct their affairs, as that would not be right or productive, but we do have to show some leadership. We hope to work with other countries that are demonstrating increasing concern in this field and come up with solutions acceptable to countries where the demands are greatest and that therefore can be sustainable. I certainly do not want to prejudge how that will look—we are not in a position to do so—and I am sure that this conference will not be the end, but will be the beginning of a process that leads us there. I am very hopeful that over the course of the next few years we will get to the point where, by one means or another, demand reduction is baked into the future.
That brings us to the most difficult and most important thing of all: the provision of sustainable alternatives. Many years ago my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park and I found ourselves in Brazil talking about the Amazon with the amazing Mr Unger, then Minister for the Amazon, who I think rejoices in being the only Minister for the Amazon who was also a leading Harvard political theorist—and, I may say, a leading Harvard political theorist who would be a delight to the father of the current Leader of the Opposition and who disagrees with me on just about every aspect of political philosophy I have ever come across. Nevertheless, the Brazilians were serious in this pursuit and my hon. Friend and I were there to work with them on that question, and to understand better what they were up to. The point Mr Unger made repeatedly and very effectively to us was that it is all very well telling the population in the Amazon that they cannot cut down so many trees, but the truth is that that is how they feed themselves and unless we offer an alternative route to their feeding themselves and leading a halfway decent life, we cannot expect them to stop. The same is true in other contexts.
There are two routes to the achievement of what we seek. One is the route of trying to find alternatives—other forms of activity which have nothing to do with animals. The second, which was beautifully illustrated by my right hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs, is to find a way of placing a value on the living animals and offering an economic prospect for those who help the living animals to live rather than causing them to die. We need to go through both those routes and we need to try to forge an international consensus about how to carry those goals forward, which also will involve money, which is why I so welcome the fact that this Government have upped the ante by giving a total of, I think, £18 million in this domain. It is part of the Darwin initiative, and because of our immense commitment through a very large and growing DFID budget we can participate and show leadership in raising money around the world to deal with this issue.
The elements are all in place, therefore, and the last comment I want to make is that it seems to me that we have an extraordinary opportunity as a country. We are leading the charge in having this conference. We are a country that has had a long tradition of involvement in this area. We have the greatest stars globally that we can offer, namely the royal family, up front. We have a clear vision of what we are trying to achieve and we have budgets that can support the activity as well as a co-ordinated approach from Government. It would therefore be a terrible shame if we were not over the next two, three, four or five years to make use of all of that and build on it to lead the world in solving a problem that if it is not solved will very much diminish our globe.
Nick Herbert
We have had a good debate, albeit a relatively short one, and although floods and the future of the United Kingdom are, of course, pressing issues that command a great deal of concern, so too is this one. That is evidenced by the fact that there were many excellent contributions from concerned Members of this House. I think all of us have recognised that this is not just a matter of animal welfare or concern for species conservation, but that it is also a matter that spills over into other areas—international development, protection of the livelihoods of the poorest in the world and security. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing this debate. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley), Chair of the Environmental Audit Committee, for co-sponsoring it. I thank the seven Members on my side of the House who took part, evidencing continuing Conservative concern for environmental matters. I also thank my right hon. Friend the Minister for Government Policy for coming to this House and responding to the debate, thereby demonstrating the fact that the Government take this very seriously and the cross-cutting nature of the response that is necessary. I also thank the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice), who has been present throughout, demonstrating DEFRA’s concern.
Perhaps hon. Members should reflect that there may be an opportunity to take our collective concern on this issue forward, possibly even by creating an all-party group to pursue it.
Mrs M. Barnes (NHS Treatment)
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab)
I thank Mr Speaker for allowing me to raise this subject in today’s Adjournment debate. I understand that he makes the decision on a Thursday afternoon.
I wish to discuss the treatment of a constituent of mine, Mrs Monica Barnes, who lives in the village of South Anston. I have been dealing with her over many years now, regarding different aspects of her health care, but my reason for wanting to speak today has to do with what has been recorded on her patient records at the Kiveton Park medical centre and the effect it may have had on her clinical treatment.
Mrs Barnes wrote to me on 5 July 2002. She said:
“Whenever I have attempted to obtain treatment some reference to litigation past or present has shown itself in my medical records and/or in letters of referral from the GP. This clearly shows there to be discrimination in my case. This time reference is made in the Patients Summary to the court case. See copy sent to me in very small print, enclosed.”
I have indeed got the patient’s summary. It is dated 18 January 2001. On the bottom, it says “await judges ruling”. My constituent contacted the Information Commissioner, and a letter was sent to the practice manager on 5 September 2002. It contained the patient’s summary and the court case entry. It said:
“In order for me to assess the practice’s compliance with the First Principle, I would be grateful if you could confirm whether individuals are made aware that personal data about them may be disclosed to other health professionals in the course of their care and treatment and the extent of such disclosures. In particular, could you please confirm whether such data as were disclosed in Mrs Barnes’ case are disclosed to other health professionals as a matter of routine, which of the conditions in the Schedules the practice is relying upon in order to make any such disclosure and whether individuals are made aware of the disclosure. Given that Mrs Barnes did not expect this, I would also welcome confirmation of these issues with regard to her case. If there is no legitimate basis for holding and disclosing the data in question when Mrs Barnes did not expect such processing, it is likely to be in contravention of the requirements of the First Principle.”
Mrs Barnes received a reply from the Information Commissioner on 6 March 2003. I have to say that the Information Commissioner had to write to the practice on 16 December to remind it of the letter it had been sent on 5 September 2002 about what was held on Mrs Barnes’s record.
Mrs Barnes received a reply from the Information Commissioner. It said:
“I understand that having considered its relevance to your patient summary records, the practice has removed the entry which states “court case”. (I have requested that the practice ensures that this does not appear elsewhere in your medical records).”
That was dated 6 March 2003. Presumably, my constituent would have been quite happy with such a positive reply. The letter went on to say:
“Consequently, on the balance of probabilities it does seem that the data in question is not relevant and is excessive for medical purposes. It is also our view that on the balance of probability it does seem that it was not necessary for the practice to disclose the details without your consent, when you did not expect this.”
That is a pretty firm statement that the Information Commissioner felt that it was wrong for the records to have been kept in such a way.
In the autumn of 2010, Mrs Barnes decided to join another practice in central Rotherham that had been built in the walk-in centre that had been opened. Her medical records were requested by the South Riding Health Services Support Agency, an organisation that I had never heard of in my 20-odd years as an MP, and they were sent on 3 November before being sent on to the new practice in Rotherham town centre. When Mrs Barnes visited her new doctor in November 2010, the practice had her medical records but on her next attendance her new GP said that he did not have them. Mrs Barnes told me that she was prompted to investigate their whereabouts.
In 2011, Mrs Barnes asked me to write to the chief executive of NHS Rotherham, who wrote back to me on 11 March saying that he had had the case investigated by his complaints officer who confirmed that the notes were sent on 3 November. The chief executive went on to say:
“However, I am informed that shortly after forwarding the medical records…the…practice received a letter from the Information Commissioners office advising them that the amendments were to be made to Mrs Barnes’…records. In order to comply with the Commissioners advice, the notes had to be retrieved from Mrs Barnes’ current GP via the SRHSSA. Whilst it is acknowledged that the Kiveton Park practice had Mrs Barnes’s medical records for several weeks, it is important to note that implementing the Commissioner’s advice was onerous.”
The chief executive wrote to me on the basis that the submission from the Information Commissioner had come in around November 2010, when my constituent was moving to another GP’s practice.
I then received a letter from NHS Rotherham on 1 June 2011, which accepted that the Information Commissioner’s advice was given in 2003 and not more recently, as mentioned in the chief executive’s letter. That was the reason for the retrieval of the records from her new GP, as it was felt “prudent” that the medical records should be reviewed for absolute accuracy. The two doctors concerned verified that the removal of information as advised by the Information Commissioner had been carried out.
Mrs Barnes referred her case to the ombudsman. She wrote to me in October 2011 setting out a number of instances in which she believed discrimination might have taken place and said in that letter:
“When I assessed my medical records at the Sheffield Northern Hospital in June 2011, I discovered that reference to court case etc, was still to be found in my patient summary.”
It seems clear to me that the advice of the Information Commissioner given in 2003 was not adhered to. The instruction was to remove that reference from her medical records in the practice and anywhere else it might appear.
I got involved with the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman on Mrs Barnes’ behalf and corresponded with the office in December 2012. The ombudsman had earlier refused to investigate the case until the medical practice had the opportunity potentially to offer Mrs Barnes some compensation. That did not materialise, for whatever reason. My understanding was that the insurers might have wanted to consider the case and decide whether to take any action. In a letter to me in December 2012, the ombudsman asked Mrs Barnes for further clarification in three areas. The first was whether she had considered taking a legal remedy and why she might not have chosen to do so. The second was the level of compensation she hoped to recover. The letter said:
“The Ombudsman does not operate a tariff system and we are very much guided by what people hope to achieve. The levels of financial redress we may be able to recommend are modest when compared to sums that could be recovered by legal action and it is helpful for us to know whether we would be likely to meet the financial outcomes a complainant has expressed. This helps to ensure that they can be quickly directed to the most appropriate route to consider their concerns and helps to avoid complainants being dissatisfied at the outcomes we may be able to offer.”
The third point related to how Mrs Barnes felt that she had suffered damage as a result of the practice’s failings.
Mrs Barnes came back to me on this matter and we discussed in some detail how she should respond. In March 2013, I wrote to the assessor at the health service ombudsman saying that Mrs Barnes and I continued to be unhappy with the handling of her case. I reminded them that a letter I had received from them on 28 March 2012 stated that
“the Ombudsman will not normally consider a complaint unless the NHS organisation concerned has had a reasonable opportunity to resolve the complaint”.
I then went on to say that in relation to their letter dated 11 December, Mrs Barnes did not wish to go down the legal route because of the potentially high costs involved.
In relation to the ombudsman’s comment about the compensation that Mrs Barnes would wish to recover, as I have already pointed out, I said that
“she cannot risk going down the legal route because of the cost. Consequently, she feels the only route she has open to her is to go through the Ombudsman”.
I then said that I would appreciate it if they could be more specific about what level of financial redress they may be able to recommend if they were to settle the case for her. They told me that they had no tariff, which I quite understand.
On the third point, I reiterated that Mrs Barnes had previously provided them with information on how she felt about the damage suffered as a result of the practice’s failings. It was not just the one incident; there were many other incidents in the letter that I received from Mrs Barnes at the time.
Further correspondence took place between Mrs Barnes and the ombudsman, and in a letter to them, no doubt in her frustration, she said:
“I refuse to involve clinical negligence solicitors due to my having taken legal action against a particular hospital in the past with no outcome.”
Hence, presumably, the reference on her patient record. She went on to say:
“The only people who seem to benefit from litigation are the solicitors themselves. I refuse to further fill their pockets and barristers’ pockets with taxpayers’ money.”
That quote was used in a letter sent to me dated 18 June from the ombudsman’s office. Also in that letter it was stated:
“Mr and Mrs Barnes complaint correspondence referred to a number of other interactions with NHS Care that did not involve the practice since around 1990 and were not part of our considerations”.
That is an important point, and I agree with it. This complaint was about the issue of what was on Mrs Barnes’s medical record and how it may have been used by others if they had seen what was on that.
After further correspondence, I received a letter from the director at the ombudsman’s office in August 2013 after a review had taken place of the action/inaction of the ombudsman’s decision not to progress the complaint. That letter stated that when I wrote to the ombudsman on 24 June 2013 I had said that Mrs Barnes was unhappy with the decision because she did not have the money to take the case to court. It was said that Mrs Barnes had previously told the ombudsman that she was not prepared to put money into the pockets of solicitors and barristers, but not, so far as I can see, that she could not afford to take legal action.
The letter continued:
“However, while a person’s ability to pay legal costs is relevant in cases such as this, it cannot be the sole factor. Mrs Barnes is seeking damages for personal injury that she says she has sustained at the hands of a number of clinicians over more than 20 years and her claim arises from an action for which the law provides a specific remedy. In the circumstances we agree with our original decision that the matter is properly for the courts and is not one we should investigate.”
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
This is a very complicated case and I just want to be sure that I understand exactly what the ombudsman is recommending. My understanding is that the ombudsman is recommending that a lady who has had a lot of trouble because she once previously went down the legal route should, instead of pursuing a complaint about that with the ombudsman, go down the legal route all over again. Have I got that right, or am I missing something?
Kevin Barron
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. What gets me about the last two letters more than anything else is the fact that they are completely contradictory. The first states:
“Mr and Mrs Barnes’ complaint correspondence referred to a number of other interactions with NHS care that did not involve the Practice since around 1990 and were not part of our considerations”.
The last letter basically states, “No, we aren’t going to pursue any action at all. We’re not going to look at it.” It then states—I am sorry to repeat this, but I think that it is important—that
“Mrs Barnes is seeking damages for personal injury that she says she has sustained at the hands of a number of clinicians for more than 20 years”.
They are completely contradictory.
It seems to me that the parliamentary ombudsman, which is also taxpayer funded, has not only made contradictory statements, but handled Mrs Barnes’ case in a negative way. As we discussed when she and her husband visited my office, which they did on several occasions, this was not about what had or had not happened to her with the medical professional over the years; it was about what had been held on her personal records. In 2003 the Information Commissioner said that that was wrongly done and suggested it should be removed. We then found out that in 2010 the records were scooped back in again when they moved to another practice. I can only assume that the chief executive of NHS Rotherham did not know about the Information Commissioner’s decision at the time, because the second letter I received from the chief executive stated that it was more recent than he had been led to believe and that the records had been brought back from the new practice because they had just received information from the Information Commissioner that they had to change them.
I am deeply concerned about the situation. My constituent has effectively been railroaded into a situation she does not want to be in, and that she should not have to be in. Indeed, the British taxpayer has been railroaded into a situation that I do not think it should be in. My constituent said, not with my blessing—I give it my blessing now, though—that far too many people are forced into litigation in this country, at taxpayers’ expense, rather than following common sense by sitting down, looking at the problem and deciding what should be done sensibly, not feeding the law courts.
I have to tell the Minister that I am deeply disappointed that the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman—I know that it is not directly a part of Government—can be run in that way and make those contradictory decisions. It seems to me that its decision is this: “We don’t have to do anything, so we’ll force her back to litigation if she does not want to go. That’s the end of the matter.” That cannot be correct, and I would like to know whether the Minister agrees.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)
I congratulate the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Kevin Barron) on securing the debate and commend him for all the work he has done on behalf of his constituent, and for the work he did in the previous Parliament, before I was a Member, as Chair of the Health Committee. I know that he has a long and distinguished record of fighting on health issues in the House, for his constituents and more generally. I also congratulate him on his recent knighthood. I am sure that the House will echo those congratulations.
We can all agree that good-quality patient care is expected, regardless of which part of the country we live in, and that all patients should expect it. I pay tribute to the NHS staff in the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency for the work that they do.
I am sorry to hear about the difficulties that Mrs Barnes has experienced and that she is dissatisfied with the quality of the care she has received. It is never acceptable for a patient to receive anything less than the very best treatment and service from our NHS. However, I am sure that all hon. Members will appreciate that the provision of local health care services is a matter for the NHS locally and that the Department of Health and Ministers do not play a role in directly investigating individual localised health care complaints, which should, quite rightly, be investigated without political interference to ensure that there is no question of bias. There is an NHS complaints procedure to resolve concerns and to help local NHS organisations to learn from the experiences of their patients. On the anniversary of the Mid Staffordshire scandal and the Francis inquiry, it is right that we reflect on the fact that we have to learn from things that have gone wrong in our health service and make sure we put them right for the benefit of future patients.
I understand that, as the right hon. Gentleman outlines, Mrs Barnes has been pursuing this matter for many years and has made use of the NHS complaints system, up to and including the health service ombudsman, on a number of occasions. I also understand—this is an important point in the context of the ombudsman and other issues—that a number of the concerns that Mrs Barnes raises about her care relate to events involving non-NHS health care. I should make it clear that what I say relates to the NHS, and not to health care providers working outside the NHS with whom Mrs Barnes may have decided to undertake treatment.
It is relevant at this stage to say a few words about how the ombudsman system works.
Kevin Barron
I accept, to some extent, the Minister’s point about the wider issues, which were not a matter of referral to the ombudsman. However, a constituent might often go to the private sector needing to get things done because they are in pain, for example, and might then see a consultant they could also see under the NHS. Often the staff are the same people, and there is no great difference between the clinicians they meet. Does he agree with that?
Dr Poulter
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. It is difficult, in terms of the care pathway, for any patient to draw these distinctions. However, the NHS complaints procedure relates to NHS care, and the ombudsman’s role is as a public sector ombudsman. That goes to the heart of some of the difficulties we are talking about.
If a complainant is dissatisfied with the outcome of their complaint locally, they have the right to take it to the health service ombudsman, whose office was set up under the Health Service Commissioners Act 1993. When complaints are escalated, it is important that they are investigated independently, free from the political process, to ensure that there is no question of bias. The health service ombudsman is completely independent of the Department of Health, the Government, and the NHS. It is therefore difficult for me to comment on the ombudsman’s decisions directly.
If a complainant is dissatisfied with the ombudsman’s decision, they may make use of her own complaints process. The recourse open to anyone after the ombudsman has made a final decision is to seek a judicial review. During the entire complaints process, we assume that patients would take legal advice whenever they think it necessary. That is in their best interests and, in some cases, it is often important that patients have advice from a completely independent source.
If, on the basis of the legal advice received, patients decide to commence legal action against the NHS, that is, of course, to be expected. The House will understand that I cannot comment on legal advice given to patients, including Mrs Barnes, as that is entirely a matter between the patient and her lawyer. Complaints about lawyers are not a matter for the Department of Health or the NHS, nor for this House to consider in this context. I am aware that Mrs Barnes has exhausted all the legal remedies open to her. Her case has been considered by a number of courts, including the Court of Appeal, and has on each occasion been rejected. It goes without saying that these matters will have been considered carefully by the various judges involved, and I should not and will not cast any doubt on their judgments.
Dr Julian Lewis
I was not familiar with this case until I heard it outlined in such detail, but as I understand it the pointed issue is not about the merits or otherwise of this lady’s original arguments with the health service. I think I am right in saying that the only pointed issue is that the Information Commissioner’s Office directed that certain data should be removed from the record. They were not and she complained to the ombudsman, who does not seem to want to say whether it was right that they were left on her record or whether they ought to have been removed.
Dr Poulter
My hon. Friend will be aware that patients have open access to their records and can request to see them, but it is not for a patient forcibly to remove relevant clinical information from them. I am not sure whether that was the case in these particular circumstances, but I hope to be able to reassure the right hon. Member for Rother Valley.
It is worth pointing out that, during the long line of litigation, in 2007 Mr Justice Simon said, following a hearing, that
“this is not a case of professional conspiracies by the medical or legal professions; it is a case where the balance of the evidence before the Court fell decisively and conclusively in favour of the defendant”,
meaning the NHS. There is a long history of legal rulings that make that point clearly. Indeed, I understand that the NHS Litigation Authority obtained cost orders in its favour for that case, although it was unable to recover its costs. I reassure the right hon. Gentleman, however, that I shall look into the issues he has raised about the ombudsman and the Information Commissioner and write to him about them.
Kevin Barron
I appreciate that. I know that there is some history to the case of Mrs Barnes, but in my humble view—I understand that the ombudsman and politicians should not get mixed up—this specific issue is not about what happened in the courts. It is about what did or did not happen at the request of the Information Commissioner. My reading of the situation is that it could have been managed and handled by the health service ombudsman and compensation could have been paid. In my view, the ombudsman sat back, possibly because of the history to which the Minister has just referred, and thought, “It’s got to go to litigation and that’s it.” When other avenues were closed off, the ombudsman’s office could have managed the situation, but it seems to me that it backed off, looked at the whole history of the case of Mrs Barnes and said that it had to go to litigation. I think that is unfair and that the ombudsman’s office could have handled things much better and smarter on behalf of my constituent.
Dr Poulter
I note what the right hon. Gentleman says. I have committed to looking further into the issue and to writing to him, and I hope that will reassure him further about the processes that have been followed in this case.
As I said at the outset, I am very sorry to hear that Mrs Barnes is unhappy at the care and treatment she has received from the NHS. I am also aware that, over the years, she has been seen and treated in a private capacity on a number of occasions, which, as we have discussed, complicates the issues, because it can make it difficult to establish whether the responsibility sits with the NHS—as part of either the ombudsman’s process or the NHS complaints procedure—or elsewhere. Her case has also been considered by the courts on a number of occasions and I have alluded to their conclusions.
I understand that Mrs Barnes made full use of the various NHS complaints processes, but remains dissatisfied, which we have discussed in detail today. Accordingly, she has involved the health ombudsman, but the outcome has not been as she would have wished.
As I have said—this is worth repeating—the ombudsman is independent of Ministers, the Department of Health and the Government. An option open to anyone dissatisfied with the ombudsman’s actions is judicial review, but it is not to be embarked on lightly and those considering doing so should ensure that they take legal advice.
I wish Mrs Barnes well and I appreciate the intentions of the right hon. Gentleman and his strong advocacy of her case.
Question put and agreed to.
Ministerial Corrections
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Ministerial CorrectionsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Suicide Prevention Strategy
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Ministerial CorrectionsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)
...Sadly, since 2007 we have seen signs that the suicide rate has risen in England, as it has in many countries. There were 4,524 suicides in 2012.
[Official Report, 17 January 2014, Vol. 573, c. 39WS.]
Letter of correction from Norman Lamb:
An error has been identified in the Written Ministerial Statement on Suicide Prevention Strategy issued on 17 January 2014.
The paragraph should have read:
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)
...Sadly, since 2007 we have seen signs that the suicide rate has risen in England, as it has in many countries. There were 4,513 suicides in 2012.
Re-employment
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Ministerial CorrectionsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lilian Greenwood
To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many staff have been made redundant or retired by his Department and subsequently re- employed since May 2010.
[Official Report, 24 January 2014, Vol. 574, c. 362W.]
Letter of correction from Stephen Hammond:
An error has been identified in the written answer given to the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) on 24 January 2014.
The full answer given was as follows:
Stephen Hammond
In total 12 civil servants have been re-employed by either Department for Transport central or one of its Agencies having been made voluntarily redundant or retired by the same organisation since May 2010. This is a very small percentage (less than 1%) of external recruitment over that period.
The correct answer should have been:
Stephen Hammond
In total 10 civil servants have been re-employed by either Department for Transport central or one of its Agencies having been made voluntarily redundant or retired by the same organisation since May 2010. This is a very small percentage (less than 1%) of external recruitment over that period.
Westminster Hall
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Community Budgets
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sheridan, and to introduce this debate on the third report this Session by the Select Committee on Communities and Local Government, on community budgets, an important subject. To set the context, the Committee supports the concept of community budgets and how they work in practice where pilots have been established. It is fair to say that, as well as supporting what has been done on community budgets, the Government were generally supportive of the Committee’s recommendations. We all saw the potential, in this economically difficult climate, both to save money and to improve services. Not many initiatives have the opportunity or potential to do both.
I will briefly sketch the Committee’s overall view and then put some specific questions about remaining issues of concern, some of which were raised in the report and some of which the Government might not have answered as fully as we would have liked. I appreciate that I might ask a lot of specific questions; if the Minister feels that some of them are more appropriately responded to in writing after the debate, I understand.
Community budgets are not matters of great political contention. It is merely a matter of exploring how we can make the ideas work in practice, considering the obstacles to the successful further development of the community budget approach, learning lessons from what has happened on the pilots, and seeing how community budgets can relate to and work more widely with local growth funds and city deals. I flag up the fact that the Committee is now considering the London Finance Commission and its recommendations for financial devolution to cities. Maybe that is another element that will come into the devolutionary equation in due course.
To summarise the Committee’s findings, we felt that the pilots demonstrated a clear potential for delivering cheaper yet more integrated services that are better related to the specific needs of both areas and individuals living in those areas. We recognised that to be successful, they need strong leadership at the local level and from central Government. We had one little worry: pilots tend to be in areas where individuals are committed to making something happen, and strong leadership tends to go with that. Will the leadership naturally be as strong, and will it be the right sort of leadership, in other areas as the scheme is rolled out across the country?
We acknowledge that there are barriers, often cultural barriers, particularly in Whitehall, and the important role that secondees from Departments have played in helping to break them down. We recognise the need for a clear framework, so that the costs incurred and the benefits, which do not always come to the same organisations, are clearly identified and systems for accountability are in place.
On the troubled families programme, about which I will say a few more words at the end of my comments, we recognise generally that progress has been made. The Minister might like to update us further on the present position and how many families the programme is now dealing with. We had a few concerns about the future—the additional families coming on stream in 2016 and what will happen thereafter.
Generally, the Government response was positive and recognised the need for a wider roll-out of the principles behind community budgets—strong leadership, support systems and accountability mechanisms—but it used some new vocabulary that we had to deal with. Something called the transformation network was referred to many times, and we are interested to find out more about that organisation, body or network, as it seems key to how the Government intend to take the scheme forward. Another interesting organisation was the Treasury technical advisory group, undoubtedly lurking somewhere in the Treasury across the road, which will be important in helping move the scheme forward.
On specific matters, the Committee could see merit in having more pilots, but ultimately we wanted a nationwide roll-out of community budgets. We thought that that was important and that they have that much potential. We want them to happen everywhere. The Government response supported increased integrated delivery and gave a lot of examples of initiatives and freedoms given to local authorities, such as the reforms of the housing revenue account, which are not directly linked to community budgets but illustrated the resulting freedoms that authorities could have—particularly if the cap were taken off borrowing, but I make that point in passing before moving on to issues more relevant to the report—and other forms of assistance that the Government will give to help the principal approach of community budgets spread more widely.
Essentially, it is about encouraging service transformation, if not through formal roll-out of more measures that we would immediately recognise as whole-place community budgets. What does a successful roll-out of the principles actually look like in practice? How will they be embodied in the delivery of services in our communities throughout the country? Central Government support for the process is clearly key, because much of what we want is about central Government services delivered locally, in a more joined-up way, and by working in conjunction with local authorities, police and other local services.
We recognise that secondments have been important in the pilots to breaking down the barriers that had often existed in Departments and finding a way in to those Departments to make them respond more positively. We accepted in our report that the idea of secondments could not be rolled out to every part of the country—that probably is not feasible—but we asked for at least a named official in each Department to whom local authorities could go if they were experiencing problems, delays or barriers, for help finding a way through those obstacles.
The Government response discussed the public service transformation network established as a way to deal with that issue: its role in disseminating lessons learned from the pilots, its help with plans to transform services in different parts of the country, and the appointment within it of account managers. I presume that those account managers are very much the sort of named officer or official that the Committee asked for—someone in a Department with the responsibility to help make the scheme work and to whom local authorities could go if they found barriers being put up.
I have a few questions about the transformation network, because it appears in many of the Government’s responses. What precisely is it? What staff are involved in it, and how many? What is its budget, and to whom is it accountable? Those are important questions to answer if we are to understand how it works. There is also a reference to its dealing with 22% of service provision across the country; what happens to the other 78%? How will it be dealt with? That seems fairly fundamental if we are looking for a national roll-out. Will we have any more pilots like the whole-place pilots or the neighbourhood pilots, or will there just be a more diffuse dissemination of the principles of community budgets?
Co-production is important. Community budgets clearly have financial incentives to make savings and deliver better services for the same money. It is an important catalyst for pushing service providers to better and more integrated working relationships, but if that is to happen, central Government Departments must let go and give their officials at local level the freedom to engage properly with local authorities and deliver things in different ways in different parts of the country. I cannot help but throw in a little one by saying that the Department for Communities and Local Government should be taking the lead, but when the Secretary of State starts to direct authorities on how often they should empty their bins—he will say that he does not direct, so let us say encourage or persuade them, or comment on how they should do it—or tell them how they should deal with their parking arrangements, that does not create the best of atmospheres and is not the best way to promote letting go and allowing local officials to engage at local level with local authorities and to respond to local needs. Is not it really the job of the Department for Communities and Local Government to take the lead in a very positive, localist way and to help other Departments to roll out best practice?
Economic growth is a key issue in relation to community budgets. We can see community budgets, together with the city deal arrangements and the local growth fund, unlocking the potential for real, clear public service transformation to promote economic growth at local level. A key element, in addition to improved public services, is the idea of being able to work positively at local level to deliver higher economic growth. The Select Committee will look at that when we look at the work of the London Finance Commission and its recommendations.
Very clearly in our report, we drew attention to the comments that Essex county council made to the effect that in trying to work with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, it had simply hit a brick wall: BIS was not willing to co-operate. We raised that issue with the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government when he gave evidence and, to be fair, he said, “I’m not aware of this, but I will go back and look into it,” and we had a very long response from the Government on this point. What they did not do was answer the following questions. Has BIS reformed? Has the brick wall been knocked down? Is BIS now co-operating properly? That is what we want it to do. It is one thing to list a load of initiatives; it is another thing to say, “Is that Department really signed up to the process, or is it going through the motions?” Community budgets will not work in the end unless there is real enthusiasm, and not merely within the Department for Communities and Local Government. Despite my little aside about the Secretary of State a few minutes ago, I accept that Ministers in that Department want this to work, but I am not always sure that all their colleagues or, indeed, all the civil servants in other Departments necessarily want it to work.
Joining up social care and health offers a way forward to better, more integrated services. That will not necessarily involve the full whole-place approach, but it is a very important area. The Government mentioned in their response the better care fund and the important role that health and wellbeing boards will have to play in trying to join up and integrate services. Do we see any evidence in delivery on the ground that the health and wellbeing boards and the new public health role of local government are starting to shift the approach from reactive to proactive? On the better care fund, do we have evidence that the NHS trusts really mean to co-operate to make things happen, or will they sit there and say, “This is health money. We want to spend it in a way that we direct”?
That leads me on to data and information sharing. I remember when the Select Committee did our inquiry into the transfer of public health to local government. We were very supportive, considering it to be one of the very positive localist things that the Government had done. When Baroness Hanham gave evidence to the Committee, we noted the honesty with which she said, “These two Departments”—CLG and Health—“have different cultures and information systems, and there are real challenges and problems in breaking those barriers down and getting proper and full co-operation.” In their response, the Government pointed out that to access the money available through the better care fund, there had to be clear indications at local level that data and information sharing had been properly addressed. As we approach the beginning of the next financial year, does the Minister have any information on whether progress has been made?
I was pleased that the Government seemed to recognise that data and information sharing is a potential problem. The Secretary of State was quite open in saying to the Committee that he thought that, very often, there were no real legal obstacles to data and information sharing; there was just a presumption that people could not do it. It was more a matter of culture and belief than a real obstacle, so the development of the network of What Works centres, the work of the transformation network and the efforts to get local authorities and central Government Departments to set up a centre of excellence for information and data sharing are all very welcome, because they do seem to show the Government taking this matter very seriously. There is also the Treasury technical advisory group and its role in exerting pressure to ensure that those barriers are removed where they exist.
There is a brief reference to the Cabinet Office exploring whether legislation might be needed, whether the problems of data sharing are not just about cultural barriers and perceptions about what the position might be, and whether there could be some real legal obstacles to data sharing. If that is the case, can the Minister update us on what progress the Cabinet Office has made with regard to data sharing?
Financial accountability is also very important. The Government response was very much that, as we integrate services in a more specific way across a number of different initiatives, the existing system of accountability will be satisfactory. However, there was recognition, I think, that if we move to pooled budgets, which I think the Government were saying was still a little way away, we would need to have a fresh look at the whole question of accountability, given that pooling local authority resources with local police resources and Department of Health resources will involve dealing with all the different systems of accountability for that spending. We have asked the Public Accounts Committee to have a look at this. Given that the Government have recognised that a fresh look will be needed at some point, can the Minister enlighten us on his vision of how a new system of accountability would work?
Finally on community budgets, there is the issue of wider financial concerns. We drew attention to the fact that if the budgets were to work in the long term, a different approach to long-term funding would be needed. We had a response from the Government on that in two different places. They said that
“the Treasury will work with departments to give local public services the same long-term indicative budgets as departments from the next Spending Review”.
That is a fundamentally important statement and one that the Minister might like to say a little more about. If the Government are serious about that, it could fundamentally change the financial relationship between central and local government, and we would like to hear more.
We identified the problem that the body that makes the savings under community budgets may not be the body that spends the money. Local authorities can put a lot of work into youth services, but the costs are saved in the justice system. Very often, of course, central Government make the savings and local government spends the money. The Government talked about the transformation network working to develop locally based investment agreements, but the Committee said—the Government did not really respond to this—that we thought that Departments would have to provide some money up front if they were to benefit down the line. There was not really a clear indication that that message had got across and that the Government recognised that if community budgets were to work—if we were to roll them out—they would have to do some pump-priming. Indeed, we talked about all Departments, not just the Department for Communities and Local Government, recognising that and about having a cross-Whitehall system for incentivising that process—perhaps a top-slice of departmental budgets. I think that Lord Heseltine suggested that in his “No Stone Unturned” report when he talked about nearly £50 billion being put into local growth funds. In the end, we got £2 billion from Government —slightly less than Lord Heseltine had mentioned.
One of the rumours that went round—I do not always believe rumours, but my sense is that there might be some truth in this one—was that Departments were simply pulling up the drawbridge and saying, “We’re not going to give any of our budgets up to this process. These are our budgets and we’re going to spend them as we want.” Despite the helpful responses to a number of the recommendations in our report, not much was said about the need for pump-priming and whether there needed to be a systematic cross-Whitehall basis for incentivising this process.
I shall say a few words about the troubled families programme. The Select Committee was supportive of that and we could see what the Government were achieving. It might be helpful, as I have said previously, to have an update on what progress has been made. We welcomed the expansion of the programme, with 400,000 extra families being brought into it, but questioned whether the increase in the number of families being dealt with was being matched by a proportionate increase in the resources made available. I am not sure that we got a full answer to that question.
What happens to the programme in 2016? Is the intention to roll it on? If so, what will happen to families who have been successfully dealt with by the programme and ticked off, for whom the payments have been made? Will there be any sort of follow-up system to monitor those families and ensure that they do not slip back into difficulty? The Select Committee also asked about sanctions via the payment-by-results system for authorities that had not delivered. The Government response stated that there had not yet been any sanctions. Will the Minister update us on that?
I will probably not be able to tempt the Minister too far down this road, but does he believe that in the longer term, initiatives such as community budgets, city deals—the Committee has been very supportive of those—the local growth fund and proposals from the London Finance Commission might together become a springboard for widespread localism and the decentralisation and devolution of powers and responsibilities to local government and local communities? Might those initiatives, of which community budgets are a key part, come together to form a brave new world—a rebirth of truly independent local government—and does he see himself as the midwife of that process?
Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)
You have caught me by surprise, Mr Sheridan. I thought we might first hear from some of my hon. Friends who have a great deal of expertise in this area, but perhaps they will intervene in a moment.
I was a member of the Communities and Local Government Committee for part of the duration of the inquiry, and I found it extremely interesting; indeed, it was perhaps the most interesting of the Committee’s inquiries in which I participated. I congratulate its Chair, my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), and all its members on bringing the inquiry to its conclusion and following it through with the Government. My hon. Friend has continued that effective work today by pressing the Minister on the Government’s response. I have read the response, and I believe there is significant scope for the Government to give us further assurance on how far they will go to ensure that the potential of community budgets is realised.
It is worth putting the matter in context. I believe there is a broad political consensus around the community budget approach. The previous Labour Government introduced the Total Place initiative in 2009 with several pilots, and the Treasury produced a report in March 2010 that stated:
“We will work with consistently high performing places to develop a ‘single offer’ for those places. This offer will give places a range of freedoms (freedoms from central performance and financial control as well as freedoms and incentives for local collaboration) for working in partnership with central government to codesign services and arrangements to deliver greater transparency, efficiency and value for the citizen and the public purse.”
The previous Labour Government did some great things during their 13 years in power. In the later years, however, there was a growing realisation that although performance management had successfully improved performance standards across local government, we had begun to see its limits. A new approach was required in which local authorities could take on a community leadership role and more effectively bring public services together.
That is not merely a criticism of the limitations of performance management under the previous Government, but a reflection on how society has changed. When the welfare state was established, the Government of the day were building services from scratch for many people around the country, and they had to bring services together. There were lively arguments when the national health service was founded, and some argued that local authorities could provide those services, particularly in London, where the local authority already provided a substantial number of health beds. Central Government had to inject some real impetus behind Beveridge’s proposals for the founding of the welfare state, and they did so successfully, whether in health services, social care, transport infrastructure or, notably, the building of housing.
Times have changed, however, and local government is in a different position, not least as a result of 13 years of increased resources and support, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) was particularly responsible for. The capacity of local government grew over that period, so it was right to set out an ambitious plan for Total Place. It is clear, and disappointing, that the Government’s ambition for the community budgets programme does not match the previous Government’s ambition and enthusiasm for the Total Place ideas. There has been a particular focus on troubled families, and I will address that in a moment.
I was present at some of the Select Committee’s evidence sessions, and I have read the transcripts of others. The report demonstrates a clear consensus that community budgets offer a viable model for public service transformation, and that it is necessary to move beyond the testing phase and implement them more widely. The report considers the second phase of the community budget pilots the Government have announced, and it rightly warns—in the spirit of the remarks of the Select Committee Chair—that the second phase of testing must not be allowed to slow the momentum towards wider implementation. Many areas of the country are already developing integrated models of service delivery that do not have the badge of community budgeting. I fully endorse recommendation 3 from the report:
“The Government must continue to send the clear message to all local authorities that it will support every authority wishing to introduce Community Budgets”.
Although I am sure the Minister will tell us that the knowledge network and the secondments have been helpful in some areas of the country, every local authority faces incredibly tough financial challenges, together with the need to reform and improve public services to deal with other pressures that increase costs, such as demographic change. Local authorities should, therefore, be supported in taking forward community budgeting approaches. I hope the Minister will tell us how the Government intend to respond to recommendation 3 in order to send that strong signal to local government.
The report calls on central Government to facilitate local partnerships and enable local authorities to reshape how central resources are spent in their area. I have a mixed view about that. It is important to tell local authorities that we want them to take the lead in developing networks of support for each other and in knowledge sharing. Indeed, Labour local authorities have been doing just that. The excellent publication “50 Top Achievements by Labour Councils”, which I recommend to Members as good bedtime reading, shows how Labour councils are supporting one another to improve community budgets.
The Select Committee report makes a powerful point about the consequences of not rolling out community budgets nationally. There was broad agreement among witnesses that demands and costs will escalate and services will suffer if community budgets are not adopted around the country. The urgency of the situation is reflected in the Select Committee’s conclusion:
“Without quickly and fundamentally changing the way in which services are delivered by increasing local autonomy and integrating services so as to reduce demand and dependency, the reductions that are made to public spending on local services may simply result in more spending in the future on welfare, and judicial and emergency health interventions.”
Local authorities are already familiar with many of the issues raised in the report because they have experienced them directly. In addition, the National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee have published useful reports on the matter, on which the Communities and Local Government Committee drew. The significance of its report lies in the clear message that community budgeting is the way forward for public services.
It is now widely accepted that the existing public sector architecture does not lend itself well to addressing the complex challenges currently faced by local and central agencies or to the kind of relationship we should seek to develop between local and central Government in the coming years. Indeed, the Chair of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), has led some excellent work in that area. Governments have experimented with integration in the past, but the urgency of the present financial situation necessitates the immediate transformation of services. Many authorities know that community budgeting approaches offer a viable solution.
We should acknowledge that in recent years most, if not all, councils have developed practice that we could identify as community budgeting—bringing services together—whether or not the Government recognise that from their more limited view of pilots. When I was a member of the Communities and Local Government Committee, we faced a challenge. We were trying to impress on advocates of community budgets, particularly those with direct experience of them, the urgent need to demonstrate very clear evidence that could persuade the Treasury and the current Government.
I also wanted those advocates to persuade my colleagues in the shadow Treasury team, who I very much hope will be moving into that building across Whitehall in 16 months’ time. Those with experience must persuade the right people that if money is moved within the system, we can both generate savings and significantly improve outcomes. We must also look at whether that can be done in-year, within a three-year period or a five-year period, and so on.
We should consider very seriously the call for a longer-term funding settlement from the Local Government Association in its document “Rewiring public services.” That would reflect a growing trend—for example, three-year spending statements and past experiments with public service agreements—and be a clear acceptance of the fact that local government needs more financial certainty. It has been given a kind of certainty by the current Government—principally, it has known that its funding is going to be massively reduced. Local authorities with the greatest need in the most deprived areas of England know that they will lose six times more a year than the 10 least deprived local authorities, compared with 2010-11.
The situation makes the challenges in places such as Liverpool, Birmingham and Middlesbrough even greater than in places such as West Oxfordshire, Wokingham or Dorset that have, in some cases, received an increase in Government funding at the same time as most local authorities have faced massive cuts. That is why it is particularly important for Opposition Members to show that we will embrace community budgeting approaches.
It is worth noting that the Government have made progress following the significant troubled families programme. That programme builds on the great practice of the last Labour Government. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown) recently wrote a paper, which I would encourage all Members to read, that looks at not only the Government’s current troubled families programme but where it came from.
The previous Government invested hugely in Sure Start, for example. Schemes such as Think Family were forerunners of the Government’s family intervention programme. The Government inherited a well trained work force, and family intervention projects in certain areas of the country that would now be considered part of the Government’s programme were already up and running in the vast majority of councils, due to extensive investment to combat youth crime, as well as other initiatives.
The Government say that their programme has been a real success, based on early results and judged against their own criteria: 92,000 families have been identified, 62,000 families are attached to the scheme and 22,000 families are deemed to have been turned around. I note, however, the recent National Audit Office report that says that the right families are not being targeted. We should all be concerned about that, and I hope the Minister will have something to say about it. The NAO report said that
“there is a mismatch between the criteria the Department used to calculate the total number of families at which its programme is targeted, and the criteria for identifying the families in each local authority and then rewarding positive outcomes”.
The report showed that payment by results, which pays 80% on attachment and the rest on success, is being diverted by cash-strapped councils into other services as it is not ring-fenced. We should not criticise local authorities for that, or be too surprised, given the scale of the cuts they face, losing up to 40% of their central Government grant. However, the Government must acknowledge that, in practice, that is what is happening with its troubled families programme in many areas of the country.
The NAO report questions whether the achievement of the criteria for success really means that a family is turned around. The families in question have, by definition, complex and long-term problems. To claim that they have been turned around by fulfilling just one criterion in a six-month period is over-optimistic. It shows hubris on the part of the Government in their understanding the nature of the families, the experience of 30 years of very significant investment in some of these families around the country, and the difficulty of genuinely turning lives around. The single criterion could be having come off out-of-work benefits into a job in the past six months. Families obviously must have improved on a number of levels to make that a possibility, but what is still unknown is the families’ longer-term fate and whether they stay turned around if, for instance, that job is lost.
What happens once the council takes away the money for a turned around family? Some local authorities have good step-down support, but what happens after the intensive work is concluded? Does the truanting and antisocial behaviour continue at the reduced level, or does it go up? Is the job gained a job maintained, or does the family fail again? Is support withdrawn, meaning that it becomes impossible to sustain the effort needed to stay employed, given that some core problems in a family may remain unresolved? Can a family be called “turned around” if truanting and antisocial behaviour continue at any noticeable level?
My hon. Friend the Member for West Ham has undertaken research that suggests that more than half of all councils are not tracking the families that have successfully—according to the Government’s own criteria—completed the programme. There is a clear need to evaluate the programme. Indeed, the Select Committee report does consider the troubled families programme, and there is a growing body of evidence—I have mentioned the NAO report—that throws up as many questions as answers about how confident we can be in its effectiveness.
I hope that the Minister will confirm that his Department will undertake further evaluation and start to answer some of the long-term questions about the programme. It is a relatively new programme, so we do not yet know what will happen if a family needs further intervention. We do not even know whether the Government, the local authority or other public sector partners will be aware of where further intervention is required.
I want to close by saying a little about what the next Labour Government will do if we are successful at the next general election. I hope to answer some of the questions asked of the current Government by my hon. Friend the Chair of the Select Committee, but also to indicate what the future may hold. Indeed, my hon. Friend will be part of shaping that future because of his expertise and work such as the report we are discussing. I read his recent article in a Smith Institute pamphlet, which set out his ambitions for a future Government; I hope to give him some confidence. Of course, we will not be able to stop the clock or turn back the tide of cuts, but we can offer hope to local government that we both understand the depth of the financial challenge that councils face and are committed to finding a way forward.
We will start by putting fairness at the heart of the relationship between central and local government and into our approach to local government finance. We will acknowledge the difficulties that councils face, not try to sweep them under the carpet. We will respect the decisions that councils make at a local level about how to use resources, not criticise and carp from Whitehall. As my hon. Friend the Chair of the Select Committee said, the current Secretary of State carps about everything from the levels of reserves to bin collections, while masquerading as a localist.
We will review the funding formula. I thank the LGA for its excellent briefing on this debate, and also for its report “Rewiring public services.” We have looked at that, and if local government can come up with a united position on a fair settlement, we would of course take that into very serious consideration. The proposals the LGA put forward for five-year settlements, which are designed to give councils stability, are particularly important in the context of making community budgets a reality. In principle, we want to work with the LGA to take those proposals forward.
The LGA has some other very interesting proposals, such as local treasuries—the idea of local public accounts committees—which could be very valuable in driving community budgeting approaches around the country. Again, we will look to work with the LGA to develop those proposals and see what we can usefully make of them, and how effective they could be.
Of course, the next Labour Government will want councils to meet the needs of communities, be they in adult social care or raising educational standards. However, we have no intention of returning to the tick-box approach of the past. Our approach will be based on partnership underpinned by fair funding, and we need to work with local government to develop the architecture for that relationship. That means there needs to be some accountability that works both ways. However, this Government’s approach has swung the pendulum so far that the positive aspects of the previous architecture have been lost.
My hon. Friend the Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson), who is here today, and I recently served on the Committee considering the Local Audit and Accountability Bill. We were very disappointed that the Government’s proposals for the future of local audit fundamentally missed the point about the potential for transforming local public services. The Government failed to see how local value-for-money work, for example, could be a driver of local public services working together. They also failed to see that although we support combined authorities, city deals and other initiatives that bring local authorities together with local public service providers—initiatives that are at the forefront of the community budgeting approaches of authorities such as Greater Manchester—we need a system that follows value for money and that audits local authorities in such a way as to assure the public that money is being spent well, and which is that crucial driver, particularly given Whitehall’s resistance to the joining up of local services.
The English deal that we propose will support councils to deliver economic growth in all areas of the country. It will be about devolving powers over housing, planning, jobs and skills. However, we need councils to come together to decide how best to use those powers. Local economies differ, so we will not set down a model from Whitehall. Instead, we will ask local areas to develop their own local arrangements.
It would be helpful to hear from the Minister on some key points. For example, do the Government intend to reinstate the localism audit? That was a welcome and interesting initiative, even if it was a little charitable in its assessment of how localist some Departments were. I note, however, that it has been dropped. Instead we have other programmes, such as the major reform of probation that is now being pushed through, and the Work programme, which was commissioned across nine areas of the country. Also, following the abolition of regional development agencies, their powers—including their spending powers—were not placed with local government, despite the proposals involving local enterprise partnerships. Instead, those powers have been drawn to the centre. All of that activity has worked against the idea of community budgets.
That is why we will take forward our work on, for example, local authorities co-commissioning the Work programme, because we recognise the great potential of community budgets. It is also why our work to ensure that we genuinely reform the health and social care system, so that we have whole-person care, is absolutely vital, both for local authorities and central Government, to give the drive that is needed.
I congratulate the Communities and Local Government Committee on producing this report and securing this debate, and I look forward to hearing the Minister answer the many questions that have been put.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis)
Thank you, Mr Sheridan, for calling me to speak. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today.
First, I thank the Communities and Local Government Committee for securing this very important debate, which, ultimately, is on the way that public services can, and I would argue should, be delivered in the future. I particularly thank the Chairman, the hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), for the Committee’s delivering an excellent report on the community budget pilots. It highlighted the importance of ensuring that the pioneering work of those pilots is adopted across the country.
Before I turn to the Chairman’s well thought-out and strong speech, which touched on many issues that, as he rightly said, we agree on, I will just deal with a couple of the issues raised by the hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford). He said relatively little about the topic of the debate—community budgets—and went into asides on local government finance and other issues. I suspect that he had little to say about community budget pilots because he believes we are doing the right thing. I know that on many such issues there is cross-party agreement, but on some, there is not, and I will come back to all those later.
The hon. Gentleman raised an issue in respect of which I must put something on the record. I think he said that there had been increased resources for local government under the last Government. I will put to one side the question whether that indicates that he shares the shadow Chancellor’s view that more borrowing and more debt is the way forward for this country, even though that was what got the economy into difficulties in the first place; I would not tout that as a good approach. However, he was somewhat remiss in not reminding us that council tax basically doubled under the last Government, hitting hard-working people hardest.
The hon. Gentleman represents an area that has a couple of the most deprived wards in the country, and which received the highest top-up in the country from this Government after being left with a black hole because of the last Labour Government’s decision on the working neighbourhoods fund. It is important to remember that the councils that are in the toughest positions and that have the highest levels of need, which he outlined, are also those that have the highest spending power per household in the country.
However, I appreciated the hon. Gentleman’s comments about the report, “50 Top Achievements by Labour Councils”, which he recommended as bedtime reading. I would not be so churlish as to suggest that when I am struggling to get to sleep, it might well help. However, I will happily have a look at a copy and keep it under the coffee table for the future.
I come now to the serious and key point of the debate. There are some issues on which we disagree—I will come to those later—but on many we agree, as the Chairman of the Select Committee said himself. Crucially, we agree about what we want to achieve, which is a transformation of public services for, and better outcomes for, residents. Our constituents deserve better and more cost-effective services that are designed to meet their needs. As I think the Chairman of the Select Committee said, we should be able to get more for less. I agree, but at the moment not all organisations are delivering in that regard.
It cannot be right that our elderly residents should find themselves in hospital because of a lack of support to live independently at home. Not only would they rather be at home, but supporting them in the community and thereby reducing hospital admissions will save the taxpayer money—exactly fitting the point made by the Chairman of the Select Committee.
It is also not right that a family in need of support should be contacted by countless different public sector organisations, all acting independently of one another. This confused approach does not help family members to get work, stay in school or stay away from crime, and nor does it help them to achieve the right outcomes. It means that the costs of antisocial behaviour, crime and unemployment continue to fall on the taxpayer. The family, and taxpayers, would be far better served if those organisations could come together to provide integrated services designed around the needs of the people who use them.
As the Committee’s report highlighted, the pioneering work of the community budget pilots proved that that is possible and is already happening. Cheshire West and Chester’s early support team brings together social services, police, probation, health and other services. Let me give just one example. A young mother—let us call her Emma—visited a children’s centre to ask for help with benefits and some family support. Separately, she had called the police after her partner, following an all-day drinking session, had violently attacked her. Both these incidents were picked up by the early support team, and following a 360-degree profile of the family, they discovered that Emma’s partner had a history of domestic violence and that probation had previously judged him to be a risk to children. By working together, these agencies were able to identify quickly that Emma’s children might be at risk. Under the old way of working, the children’s centre would have known only what Emma had told them, and she had not told them about her violent partner. Under the old system, it might have been weeks, even months, before family workers realised how at risk Emma and her children were. That is not helpful and it is not right, and it is what none of us wants to see.
The Government wholeheartedly support change and that type of approach. We want to see that approach being adopted by every local area, so that everyone in our country can benefit. That is why we have put in place the support to ensure that others can build on what has already been achieved. Thanks to the hard work and evidence provided by the 12 neighbourhood community budget pilots, we have committed, for example, an additional £4.3 million “Our Place” fund for 2014-15, so that at least another 100 areas can design services with their communities.
The Select Committee called for the Government to provide pump-priming funding to ensure that the community budget approach was implemented more widely, and that is what we have done. Others have suggested that the Government have paused that work until after the next election. Clearly, that is not correct. We have already provided a £6.9 million transformation challenge award, which is helping partners in 18 councils work together to deliver better services.
Chris Williamson
I am encouraged by the Minister’s remarks on Departments working together. I shall just pick up on the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), about how successful the Minister’s Department has been in persuading other Departments to break down the silo mentality. Ever since I have been involved in, or had an interest in, local government, breaking down the silo mentality has been the holy grail. Will the Minister say how successful he has been in breaking down silos?
Brandon Lewis
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his helpful intervention, which gives me a chance to highlight how this is a whole-Government approach. If he will bear with me, I will, in a few moments, outline how Departments are coming together to ensure that these things are being delivered, as appropriate to the local area.
The funding from the transformation challenge award will, to name just a handful of projects involved, help to improve children’s services in south-west London, integrate emergency services and speed up response times in Surrey, and reduce crime in Cheshire. We have announced various measures further to support transformation, including a £100 million new collaboration and efficiency transformation fund and new flexibility to allow £200 million of capital receipts to be spent on the one-off costs of service reforms. In addition, in 2015-16, £30 million will be available for fire service transformation, £50 million for police transformation and £100 million for innovation in education.
The whole-place community budget pilots also highlighted non-financial barriers to partnership working, such as difficulties of data sharing, as the Select Committee Chairman rightly mentioned. I share his concerns about and frustration at the potential for real progress and change to be blocked in that way. I am determined that this Government will find a way through these myriad difficulties. Historic breakthroughs have been made in data sharing by the Troubled Families programme, for example, through which Department for Work and Pensions data have been safely shared with local authorities. Barriers to data sharing are as much to do with people’s perception of legislation as the legislation itself. For example, the “Data Sharing Act” might have been a better name for the Data Protection Act 1998. In working with fire and rescue authorities, which do great work in their communities, we often find that we need to weed out mythical understanding of something in that Act which somebody in a particular authority has found, to ensure that we get data sharing working correctly.
Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)
Might I share with the Minister my experience a week ago, when visiting staff at an early years centre in Greenwich? They spoke movingly about the difficulties they had in getting information that they desperately need about certain families from the mental health trust in the area. After talking to the mental health trust about that, to try to overcome this blockage, it became clear that the Minister’s point is exactly right: there are different understandings of what data protection requires, and there certainly is a long way to go to get different organisations to accept that sharing responsibly and within the ambit of the data protection rules is essential to getting good quality services, and to protecting people.
Brandon Lewis
The right hon. Gentleman makes a fair point, and I have had experience of this. One really good example of data sharing involves Cheshire fire authority, which has put a lot of time and effort into breaking down barriers, getting to the root of what really can be done, and getting on with it. It is useful in a debate such as this for Members from all parties to spread the word—when people read Hansard as bedtime reading, or over the weekend—so that people appreciate that such things can be done if they want to do them. The Act needs to be read properly, so that it is not misunderstood or misinterpreted by anybody in an authority.
Little things, simple things, can make a difference. In Hertfordshire, a group of people consisting of representatives from the fire authority, the county council, the police and social services works together in the same room. That has broken down barriers and has got through to people, enabling them to understand things better and allowing for much better data sharing.
Whether barriers are real or imagined, we have committed to improve data sharing where it will improve services for residents. We are setting up a centre of excellence for information sharing and exploring options for legislative changes.
The pilots also told us that their attempts to work with partners were sometimes hindered, as Members have outlined, by uncertainty about future funding. As a result of these concerns, the Treasury is working with Departments to give local public services the same long-term indicative budgets as Departments, from the next spending review. One key characteristic of the whole-place community budget pilots—why they succeeded where past attempts did not succeed as well, or failed—was the close co-operation between central and local government. As the Select Committee’s report makes clear and as the hon. Member for Corby said, the pilot areas highlighted the importance of Whitehall secondees working alongside them, helping to change the way central and local government work together, and helping to bridge understanding of how both sides work.
Mr Betts
I welcomed the Treasury’s looking at whether it can give local authorities more of an indication on medium-term budgeting than they currently have. As part of that process, will it also be the Treasury’s job to look at how far, during the spending review period, Departments will be expected to contribute a certain part of their budget to the community budget process?
Brandon Lewis
The Committee Chairman tempts me to prejudge what the Chancellor may decide, but he will understand if I resist him for now. The Treasury is looking at the issue and understands the importance and benefits of long-term work and giving budgets in the way that I have outlined.
Chris Williamson
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way again; this is my last intervention, I hope, subject to what he says. In relation to long-term certainty, working together and sharing budgets, does the Minister agree that there is a need for much greater investment in social care? Is thinking about that being done in Departments? Investing in that would save spending further down the track, by preventing people from going into much more expensive hospital care or long-term nursing care. To make savings in the future we need to invest in the present, and that means putting a lot more resources into social care. Does the Minister agree? Can we be confident that the thinking being done will deliver that?
Brandon Lewis
I will not hold the hon. Gentleman to his promise about that being his last intervention; I would not want to curtail any further insights. He does not make an unreasonable point. I will mention the important issue of social care and where it may lead in a moment; it is linked in respect of the better care fund, for example. However, as I said in opening, it is true that if we can have a better service up front, people might not necessarily need emergency and hospital care. That would be better for them and mean lower costs for their areas. The Committee Chairman mentioned the potential for being a midwife; if my Department in its current format ends up being the midwife to public services working together in future, I will be proud of what we have achieved in our time in office.
The pilot areas highlighted the importance of the secondees. The Government are committed to the approach, which is why we created the public service transformation network, which has 30 officials and counting seconded from around Whitehall and local government. They are now working with the nine new areas, but they are not the be-all and end-all. It is a rolling programme. The secondees are helping the areas to learn from the pilots and quickly create a better outcome for service users; it is an evolution of what the pilots delivered.
Some areas are picking up themes similar to the ones the pilots picked up. Each area has its own focus, depending on its circumstances and the needs of its local residents: localism in its true sense. In Bournemouth, Poole and Dorset, the focus is on integrating and improving services for elderly residents and for those with mental health or learning problems. Better support for those seeking employment or training is the priority for partners in Lambeth, Lewisham and Southwark, and for the six boroughs within the West London Alliance, which are working superbly well together to deliver there.
I have already mentioned Surrey’s plans to integrate local emergency services, as Northamptonshire has done, but it also wants young people in their area to receive better training and education. In Swindon, partners want to create safer communities and, in particular, give better and more co-ordinated support to victims of domestic abuse. Residents in Bath and north-east Somerset could benefit directly, with more money in their pocket, thanks to the work of local partners and the Department of Energy and Climate Change to improve energy efficiency in local homes.
I have barely begun to scratch the surface of the work going on in those places. I urge colleagues to take a close look at those projects when the network’s website is launched in just a few weeks’ time. People might see something that they think should be happening in their own constituency; that touches on the point raised by the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) on sharing data and best practice. Better services are not the preserve of people living in pilot areas or in one of the nine areas that are working intensively with the network. Those areas are there to share best practice. We want to learn from them and to see other areas move, too.
I agree completely with members of the Select Committee that local areas should not be held back or discouraged from proceeding with service transformation. Much of that can be done without any assistance from central Government, because it simply requires local partners to sit down, forget their differences and focus on the outcomes for residents. Partners in Staffordshire, Leeds city region, Blackpool, Tyneside, Cornwall and Suffolk are getting on with plans to improve services for residents, and others can do the same. Much can be learned from the excellent work in Suffolk, where the county council is working with district councils to share management and services. If there are barriers, gather evidence and let us know. We have already shown that we are ready and willing to aid the process by changing the way government works.
I want specifically to address the idea that the work of the community budget pilots is somehow unconnected with other important areas of policy or that big Departments are not engaged. We must not get caught in the trap of thinking of community budgets and service transformation as an initiative cut off from other Government projects, work and reforms. The principle of neighbourhood and whole-place community budgets is simple; it is about partnership working across public services, local and central, to create not just cost-effective services but services designed around people rather than structures and organisations. The same principle is at the heart of the troubled families programme, the integration of health and social care budgets, the pooled local growth fund and many more areas of work; it is not a top-down exercise. We are working closely with local partners and others on the design of the expanded programme.
The troubled families programme, for example, is being extended, as the Select Committee noted, to an additional 400,000 families over five years, with £200 million already committed for the first year in 2015-16. The hon. Member for Corby asked about the assessment of the programme, which is subject to a three-year independent evaluation. Initial findings are due later this year.
On health, it was partly thanks to the hard work and the evidence provided by the four whole-place community budget pilots announced by the Government that we could develop the £3.8 billion better care fund in the spending round. Health and social care services are already working together to ensure that our elderly residents receive the support they need to stay at home and out of hospital. We have also established a network of 14 integrated care pioneers that will, like the community budget pilots before them, work closely with central Government to develop the solutions that others can then adopt. Locally led public service transformation also has the potential to promote economic growth.
Although I understand that the Select Committee and the Essex pilot are disappointed that not all of Essex’s whole-place proposals were adopted—the Essex pilot was particularly commented on—it is possible that such areas can do far more within existing Government policy. Essex has done great work in establishing an employment and skills board that involves local employers and skills providers, and the board’s labour market intelligence has already influenced millions of pounds of capital investment by further education colleges.
A number of the nine new places are reviewing how skills and employment support is provided, and the network is working with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, Jobcentre Plus, the Skills Funding Agency and the Department for Work and Pensions. Again, the support is not just for the select few.
Mr Betts
The Minister is right to say that the Select Committee drew particular attention to the Essex problem—or the BIS problem, as it should probably be called. He has given a long list of things that Essex has been able to do, but the people from the Essex pilot were clearly concerned when they came to give evidence to the Committee. Will he take the Committee into his confidence and indicate precisely what BIS did when those points were put to it? How did BIS respond? What commitments has BIS given to change?
Brandon Lewis
There is still a lot that Essex can do within the abilities and powers that it has been given. We arranged a meeting with BIS directly, which I think has now happened, but I will pass on the hon. Gentleman’s message and ask BIS to respond directly to him on where it is at.
The Government have invited local areas to make public service reform proposals as part of the local growth deals, which are currently being negotiated with the cross-Government local growth team. We have also provided an extra £10 million a year for Jobcentre Plus, working in partnership with local authorities, to help young people find apprenticeships and traineeships. I hope that we can all agree that the focus on better outcomes, which is at the heart of the community budget pilots, is evident across all Departments and all parts of the public sector.
Members asked, “What exactly is there?” The network has 30 staff and a budget of £2 million. The network is accountable to Sir Bob Kerslake, but it reports to Ministers in the Department for Communities and Local Government, the Cabinet Office and the Treasury.
The Chairman of the Select Committee made a point about localism. The community budget pilots, the transformation network and some of the great work being done by councils across the country to bring public services together and to get on with changing how we deliver services for the better—this is what really matters—proves that the power the Government have devolved to local communities and local councils goes way beyond the central process that we had in the past. That is a revolutionary change that, hopefully, local government will grasp and take forward. It would be wrong for us in central Government ever to pretend that we have taken a vow of silence on what we think of certain decisions or on pointing out good examples of best practice for providing residents with the great services that all taxpayers deserve.
Brandon Lewis
Whether for weekly bin collections or any other service that the council provides. I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that most council tax payers would expect, at the very least, to have their waste collected in a good and weekly manner.
I welcome today’s thoughtful debate. We can all agree on the critical need for public services to work together in the interest of residents, service users and taxpayers. The community budget pilots showed how local services can be transformed. Continued commitment and strong leadership, both locally and centrally, means that everyone can benefit. There is an opportunity to see something different and something better for our country. I hope that local councils will take a grip, make the most of it and deliver for all our residents.
Mr Betts
I thank the Minister and the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Andy Sawford), for their responses to the report. We have had a good, positive debate with a lot of agreement. I said at the beginning that the Minister would probably not have time to respond to all the questions that I raised. I am sure he will write to me afterwards so that I can share his responses with the Committee.
The report was supported by the whole Committee, as our reports generally are. There is clear agreement that, through the community budget process, the available money can be spent better. Perhaps more importantly, the individuals who receive services will get a better deal. They will get more joined-up and integrated services and less waste and confusion.
To develop the approach across the country, we welcome the development of more pilots, but we want to see a clear plan for how the community budget approach could be rolled out across the country. I am not sure that I heard that from the Minister. Where does he think we will be in five years’ time? How will we get to a situation in which the approach can be rolled out across the country in that period of time? I do not think that five years is too optimistic a target.
I re-emphasise the point that local government is up for and wants community budgets. The Minister and his colleagues in the Department are entirely supportive of community budgets, but if they are to work the whole Government and all Departments need to be involved. There are still one or two question marks about that.
I will finish with a quote that my hon. Friend the Member for Corby has already partly pre-empted. This is the final comment of our report:
“Without quickly and fundamentally changing the way in which services are delivered by increasing local autonomy and integrating services so as to reduce demand and dependency, the reductions that are made to public spending on local services may simply result in more spending in the future on welfare, and judicial and emergency health interventions.”
That says it all. It is why the community budget process is so important and why we need it to be rolled out across the country as soon as possible.
Fire Sprinklers Week
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair this afternoon, Mr Sheridan. It is also good to see the Minister and the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown), in their places for this short debate to help promote fire sprinkler week. I place on record our appreciation to the Backbench Business Committee for providing the time for it.
Fire sprinklers have a role to play in our economy, our environment and our social policy. I am secretary of the all-party group on fire safety and rescue. Our chair, the hon. Member for Southend West (Mr Amess) is here, as is our treasurer, the hon. Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous). Other distinguished members of the all-party group are here too, as are others. I place on record our appreciation for the Business Sprinkler Alliance, which sponsored an event in Westminster last week to launch the latest evidence on the value of sprinklers from the Building Research Establishment and the Centre for Economic and Business Research. I give special mention to Iain Cox, the chair of the BSA, Andrew Turner, who is a great advocate for the BSA, Ben Ansell, who is the Chief Fire Officers Association’s lead on sprinklers, Celestine Cheong of Ogilvy and Ronnie King, who is a founding member of the BSA and is the admin secretary of the all-party group.
I will start by debunking some of the myths on sprinklers that are perpetrated mostly by television, film and other media. Anyone watching a television drama, an advert or a movie will recognise the comedy value of all the fire sprinklers in a building going off and everyone getting drenched. That is good slapstick fun, but it is just not true. People have a misapprehension that that is what sprinklers do, when, as most of us in the Chamber know, the heads of sprinklers all work independently and will only actuate above a fire when the temperature is above 68°. In the media, people just do not get to see the value of sprinklers.
The second myth is that water damage from sprinklers is as bad as that from hoses. Sprinklers use about 5% of the water used by firefighters’ hose lines. As an ex-firefighter, I have seen the water damage that firefighting operations can cause. Sprinklers totally minimise that damage. There is a famous quote from a senior Minister who, on visiting the scene of the Windsor castle fire, remarked, “Thank goodness the building was not sprinklered,” indicating the level of misunderstanding about sprinklers at the highest levels of Government. In fact, as a result of that building not being sprinklered, perhaps because of its historic value, we lost £6 million-worth of national treasures. The third myth is of the potential for accidental actuation, which could cause damage, but it is calculated that the chances of accidental actuation are something like 16 million to one. The final myth is that sprinklers are expensive, but anyone who has examined the cost-benefit analysis can quickly conclude that that is simply not the case.
Government have been nudging towards sprinklers for years. Wales has introduced new legislation, Scotland has different measuring perspectives in policy, and Governments have issued clearer guidance and stronger advice, particularly in relation to schools—but all have stopped short of fully embracing sprinklers. Last week’s evidence, which only relates to warehouses, made the case clearer and stronger. The Centre for Economic and Business Research launched a report last week that shows avoidable losses from fire running at £1 billion every five years and 1,000 jobs lost every year because of fire, most of which could be avoided. The research from the CEBR and the Building Research Establishment shows that 135,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide are released into the air annually from major fires—equivalent to the emissions from the annual domestic electricity supply for a city the size of Portsmouth.
There are economic and environmental reasons for supporting sprinklers, but there are also social reasons. Sprinklers minimise the risks to firefighters. We have seen firefighters killed in buildings, particularly big warehouses. Sprinklers protect the staff within buildings and provide business resilience and continuity against buildings shutting down because of a major fire. I know that colleagues here have experienced in their local economies the trauma and difficulty fire causes. Sprinklers minimise the transport disruption and local closures that major fires cause. The protection they offer enables larger compartments, higher occupancy and higher packing density in buildings. They can lower fire insurance premiums for warehouses by up to 50%.
It is worth comparing the regulations on sprinkler coverage in the UK with those of other countries. In the UK, business premises and warehouses of more than 20,000 square metres are required to be sprinklered. In many European Union competitor countries, such as Germany, that figure is 2,000 square metres, and in Scotland it is 14,000 square metres. Big questions have been asked about fires in schools, care homes and tower blocks, as well as the height of tower blocks. We saw the awful fire in a nursing home in Canada last week, where I understand 35 senior citizens died. Anyone involved in fire knows that the majority of people who die in fires are the old, the ill, the disabled, those with dependency problems and the poor. Those people deserve greater protection. The fascinating thing about the Canada care home fire was that part of the building was sprinklered and part was not, and the part that was sprinklered is still standing, whereas the part that was not is not. Most deaths from fire occur in ordinary homes, so it is good to see some local authorities and housing associations taking action. In my constituency, Tower Hamlets Community Housing is looking to install sprinkler systems, in one form or another, to protect vulnerable residents.
All eyes are on Government and I have a number of points to put to the Minister. I would be grateful if he responded to them, and surprised if he were unable to, because most of them have been around for some time and are predictable, so he probably has the answers in the notes in front of him.
First, we should remove sprinklers from being classified as plant and machinery for the purposes of business rates. If there is one thing that the present Government want to be famous for, it is deregulation, and as this is a deregulatory issue, it should be attractive to them. It is anomalous that companies that invest in protection for their businesses and employees are charged higher business rates than those that do not. A fair comparison would be a local authority penalising someone for putting in a burglar alarm. Removing sprinklers from that classification and equalising business rates would be a good start. I am sure the Minister is looking at that, because for every new regulation that he proposes, there is pressure on him to demonstrate that there is one he can repeal. This one is a freebie: he can take it and use it to argue for whatever favourite piece of legislation he wants to introduce.
We recommend that the Government review approved document B on fire safety in the building regulations and that its locus should be expanded so that the cost-benefit analysis considers the economic, societal and environmental costs of fire, alongside current life-safety considerations. That would move the goalposts considerably and would ensure that the onus was on building occupiers and owners to invest in sprinklers.
The Department for Communities and Local Government should partner with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills with the Business Sprinkler Alliance to create an open dialogue with the business community to promote sprinklers through enhanced understanding of the benefits and acceptance of the technology. This is a matter not of regulation but culture, and such a move would create the mood music. The Association of British Insurers calculates that £639 million in fire losses was paid out in the first half of 2009 and £1.36 billion in 2008. The change would save money for the UK economy, promote business and promote best practice. If DCLG and BIS were to engage more effectively with BSA, they could create an atmosphere in which sprinklers are more likely to be understood and accepted.
We also want the Government to amend the Water Bill, which is in the House of Lords. Members of the all-party group, including me, the hon. Member for Waveney and the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams), another of our joint chairs, recently visited the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson), who is the Minister with responsibility for water, at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs after the Water Bill moved to the House of Lords. One obstacle to the wider use of sprinklers, particularly in domestic property, is that water legislation classifies the supply of water for sprinklers as non-domestic, so water companies can attach conditions that can increase the cost of connection to a prohibitive extent. The water liaison group, which is a voluntary body composed of representatives of water companies and from the sprinkler sector, reached a voluntary protocol agreement in 2004 on dealing with issues surrounding installations. The agreement was recently revised, and implicit in it is that a small change is needed to section 57 of the Water Industry Act 1991 to make water supplied for sprinklers and other firefighting equipment connected to the mains a legitimate use of water. That change can be made during the passage of the Water Bill. I am pleased to say that the Minister with responsibility for water accepted the logic of the argument and agreed to examine the matter. I hope that the Minister here, the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis), will reinforce the view of the all-party fire safety and rescue group that the amendment ought to be supported.
More and more evidence is emerging of the value of sprinklers. Fires that have been prevented from becoming major blazes include incidents at a Northamptonshire primary school, Bluewater shopping centre, a plastics factory in Lancashire, a greeting card shop in a Stockport shopping centre, a restaurant in Spitalfields and a superstore in Poole. I have 10 pages of similar examples from the BSA of businesses that had the common sense to invest in sprinkler systems and therefore ensured that their buildings survived either an arson attack, accident or failure in the electrics, and were able to carry on trading because the fire was dealt with and the fire service only had to mop up the situation and ensure that the premises were safe.
I am unsure whether the Minister has had the chance to visit Scottsdale, Arizona, but it is a trip well worth making—perhaps he and the shadow Minister could arrange one. When I first joined the House, Scottsdale was the sprinkler capital of the world. It was the first local authority to create a city ordinance that every building must have sprinklers. The last time that I checked, only one person had died in a fire in Scottsdale in over 30 years. Scottsdale is a community of more than 200,000 people and is one of Phoenix’s five districts. It is a big community where people smoke, cook and use candles; they drink, and do all manner of other things—I am unsure whether Arizona is one of the states that has legalised cannabis—and fires do take place. Sprinklers have protected that community for decades. If the Minister wants to see sprinklers in action for residential purposes—the BSA’s big push this year is on warehouses—Scottsdale provides overwhelming evidence for sprinkler use in both residential and business premises.
As I said earlier, Westminster Government, the devolved Assemblies, competitor countries in Europe and others around the world are starting to endorse, embrace and legislate for sprinklers. The evidence is getting clearer, stronger and more compelling, but we need leadership. I hope that both Front Benchers make positive responses and will engage the business community to ensure that the spread of sprinklers, which is beneficial to UK plc, gathers pace.
Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) on requesting this debate and the Backbench Business Committee, of which I am a member, on having the good sense to approve it. I also pay tribute to all those who have organised the first fire sprinkler week. I absolutely agree with everything that the hon. Gentleman said, including the fact that nothing we are calling for today is original. We want not only 90 minutes to exchange a few words, but also a positive outcome at the end.
[Mr Graham Brady took the Chair]
The importance of installing fire sprinklers was made apparent just last week, on 29 January, in a small warehouse fire in Earby, Lancashire. The four-storey plastics factory was set ablaze and eight firefighters were called to the scene. Thanks to the factory’s sprinkler system, however, most of the worst damage was mitigated and the fire was stopped from spreading, even though the system was installed over 40 years ago and the sprinkler heads were 20 metres above the fire. The company was credited by a fire service spokesman for having sprinklers:
“Because the building was fitted with sprinklers, the fire was able to be put out quicker. This allowed the firefighters to deal with it before it spread.”
That example is so typical among many similar stories up and down the country. A single fire death in a building fitted with a working sprinkler system that has been installed to the correct standard is an extremely rare occurrence and multiple deaths in such circumstances are virtually unheard of anywhere in the world. There is now such clear evidence of the benefits of sprinklers that we should seriously consider how we can encourage greater use of them in England. I want specifically to deal with care homes, schools and tower blocks, which I hope will not spoil colleagues’ speeches.
It is of course important that we ensure that all buildings are fire safe, but it is especially important that care homes are adequately equipped as they are home to some of the most vulnerable members of our society, and it is paramount that they are protected. The hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse mentioned a recent devastating blaze, but Sydney witnessed the loss of 11 people at a residential home in Quakers in 2011. Such events are shocking and show the importance of fire safety.
I remember as though it were yesterday an incident from when I was the Member of Parliament for Basildon in which four children tragically died in a fire at a school. As a result of the fire in Sydney, the New South Wales Government said that they would make plans for all care homes to have an automatic sprinkler system installed. In England, sprinklers are currently required only in new care homes with double bedrooms under the 2006 building regulations guidance, but double bedrooms are no longer built in care homes under social care legislation.
I am not going to go into a detailed comparison of the situations in England and under the devolved Governments in Wales and Scotland, but the Minister might reflect on the differences.
Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)
I apologise for not being present at the start of the debate. I was in the main Chamber speaking in another debate, so I will need to get back for the wind-ups. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the difference between England and the rest of the UK—in particular Scotland, but also Wales and presumably Northern Ireland. Is he aware that the standards in Scotland, where I come from, are much higher than those in England? Should the UK Government not be looking at least to raise the standards in England up to the level in Scotland?
Mr Amess
I absolutely recognise that, but as a Conservative I do not especially want to fall down that particular hole. I am aware, however, of the difference of the situations in Scotland and England.
Single bedrooms are not included in the guidance, so in effect no care homes in England are required to have a sprinkler system installed. If we want to avoid disasters such as in Quebec and Sydney, sprinklers are needed in care homes.
The second of the three areas is schools; I have already touched on the tragedy in a particular local school when I was the MP for Basildon. There has been some progress with sprinklers in schools, but we need to be cautious about losing momentum and retreating from the progress already made.
In an Adjournment debate in the House on 1 March 2007, my right hon. Friend Michael Howard, now Lord Howard of Lympne—I hope that is how it is pronounced—gave the example of a fire in his constituency in Lympne primary school. Fortunately, there were no fatalities, but the fire gutted the whole school, causing great disruption and upset. At the time, the chief fire officer said that a properly designed and installed fire sprinkler system could have stopped the fire much earlier, avoiding the ultimate destruction of the building. In response to that fire, the then Minister of State for Education, now Lord Knight of Weymouth, announced that all new schools built under the Building Schools for the Future programme would be expected to have automatic fire sprinklers installed, apart from a handful of some low-risk schools to be determined by a cost-benefit analysis.
Again, as a Conservative I do not want to fall down that particular hole, but since the programme of introducing sprinklers into new school buildings, there has been a marked reduction in school fire losses—something I am sure we all welcome and wish to continue. Recently, however, there has been a decrease in the number of new schools built with sprinkler protection, and that is not good enough. It gives the impression that protecting our children’s education from fire damage is no longer a top priority. I am absolutely certain that the Government whom I support would not want to give that impression. Alternatives are being sought, because sprinklers are no longer considered to be mandatory, and developers are avoiding them to save money in the short term. That, however, is foolish in the longer term, and playing with our children’s future is simply not acceptable.
I have a local example from Essex, in which county my hon. Friend the Minister was the leader of Brentwood council. I have been in communication with a fire officer who has informed me that the Essex county fire and rescue service has been consulted on 422 schools since May 2010. Of those schools, to his knowledge, only four had sprinklers fitted. That is not acceptable. He went on to inform me that when a project runs into overspend, or when other requirements are highlighted, the sprinkler installation is most often one of the first things to be cut in order to free up funds. I am sure that the Minister agrees that ensuring the fire safety of our schools is a top priority of the Government.
Finally, I turn to fire sprinklers in tower blocks. Sprinklers are required in new tower blocks of more than 30 metres; in Scotland, it is blocks of more than 18 metres. In England, 4,000 existing tower blocks are not sprinkler protected. Following the fire tragedies at Lakanal House in Southwark and Shirley Towers in Southampton, the coroners issued rule 43 letters asking the Government to encourage the installation of retrofitted sprinklers in tower blocks. Blocks with complicated designs, or problems such as those in the town centre of Southend, could well benefit from them.
As with warehouses research, there is clear proof of the financial and economic benefits of installing sprinklers in tower blocks. The BRE cost-benefit analysis of residential sprinklers commissioned by the Chief Fire Officers Association found that, for most blocks of flats, sprinklers were cost-effective. This research, however, has often not been reflected in guidance to the building regulations.
Residential fire sprinklers are not expensive. They cost about £1 per square foot in a new home—the same amount as for carpeting a similar area—and most rooms would require only two sprinkler heads for complete protection. The vast majority of fires and resulting fatalities and injuries take place in residential properties. Even a small fire can cause a huge amount of damage to a property. Smoke alarms can give warning of a fire, but they cannot control the fire itself. That is where a residential sprinkler system comes into play.
I am not asking for more regulation, but I am asking my hon. Friend the Minister to reflect carefully on the advantages and benefits of fire sprinklers in domestic dwellings and saying that he should be seen to encourage housing providers as to those benefits. We certainly need to incentivise care home providers, education authorities, academies and those housing providers to invest in sprinklers. We all appreciate the burden of additional regulation on businesses and on those building our care facilities, schools and housing, so we are not asking for more regulation. I encourage my hon. Friend, however, to take the lead by giving a clear signal that automatic fire-sprinkler protection of our buildings will save lives, reduce burn injuries, and protect property, businesses, jobs and the environment. I encourage the Minister to commend sprinklers to all involved in the built environment.
I apologise in advance, Mr Brady, if I am absent for a time during the debate; I am hoping to make a contribution in the animal welfare debate due to take place later in the main Chamber. Meanwhile, I hope that the Government whom I support will listen to the professional voice of the fire and rescue service.
Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)
It is a great honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. I, too, thank my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) for securing this important debate during fire sprinkler week.
I want to illustrate the importance of fire sprinkler systems with a sad story about a factory in my constituency. The Findus food factory in Longbenton, North Tyneside, was officially opened by the late Princess of Wales in the 1980s. By 1995 it was providing jobs for 1,500 local people. Over subsequent years, the business changed hands several times and, sadly, the number of workers reduced by two thirds. None the less, it remained an important employer in the constituency.
By 2009, the factory had become Longbenton Foods, and the owners were providing much-needed employment for 420 local people. The factory remained busy, still producing frozen meals under the Findus label—in particular, the famous Findus crispy pancakes. It was one of the few businesses to continue to have a licence to produce them. I can see that I have brought some memories back for a number of people in the Chamber.
Work in the factory came to a sudden halt on 6 January 2009, when a huge fire broke out in the main food production area. It took six fire engines and 34 firefighters more than three hours to bring it under control. Fortunately, all the staff were safely evacuated, because of the fire alarm system, and no one was hurt in the blaze. In fact, Dave Brown, who was the group manager at Tyne and Wear fire service, praised the fire crews for an excellent job in tackling what he described as a difficult fire. Although there were several production halls at the factory, they were all smoke damaged and put out of production. The fire caused an estimated £20 million of damage and left almost all the workers redundant.
At the time, my predecessor in the seat, the right hon. Stephen Byers, and the then Minister for the North East, my right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown), worked with the council and others to minimise the social and economic consequences for the local community. Longbenton Foods secured a grant of £3.4 million from the regional development agency One North East to rebuild and reopen the business. The factory reopened in 2010, and in June that year, confident in its future, I paid tribute in my maiden speech to the efforts of all involved in saving the business. However, by December the business was in trouble. I worked with the owner to try to save Longbenton Foods, but despite valiant efforts by the administrator, the business could not be sold as a viable enterprise, and this time the job losses were final.
Although the ultimate failure of the business could not be directly attributed to the fire, it could be said that its negative influence in disrupting business at a crucial time meant that the business could never fully recover its former success. Had the fire not happened, the business would have continued to meet the demands of a healthy order book and would have provided continuous employment for all the staff.
I know the experience in North Tyneside is not unique, as has been shown today, and that businesses across the country are hit by fire all the time. At its worst, the upset can lead to loss of life; at the very least it can lead to loss of jobs and businesses, and can have an environmental impact. Only 100,000 litres of water were used to fight the Longbenton Foods fire, although often many millions of litres are used to douse a single fire, according to a study carried out by Bureau Veritas on behalf of the Business Sprinkler Alliance. That report showed that the impact of a fire in a commercial building is always felt long after the fire has been put out, as was the case with the Longbenton Foods factory.
The worst thing is that had the Longbenton Foods factory been fitted with sprinklers, the fire would have been doused or controlled before the fire brigade arrived. The factory would most likely have remained open for business, millions of pounds of public money would have been saved and, most importantly, 420 people would still be in work. No lives were lost, thank goodness, but hundreds of livelihoods were ruined. Another company now owns the factory, but massive investment is needed to get the place back into production. That is of little comfort to those who lost their jobs several years ago.
I commend the work of the BSA and would like to reiterate the following specific actions that are required from the Government. I ask for non-regulatory measures to promote the benefits of fire sprinklers to businesses and deregulatory measures so that sprinklers are no longer classified as plant and machinery for the purposes of business rates, as well as a review of approved document B on fire safety in the building regulations, so that the cost-benefit analysis considers the economic, societal and environmental costs of fire alongside the current life safety considerations.
I hope the Minister will reply favourably to those requests for action. I do not want to see a repeat of what has happened at Longbenton Foods. A positive response would be fitting and timely in fire sprinkler week.
Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting this debate and congratulate the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) on securing it and on his work both in raising the awareness of the needs of the fire service generally and in campaigning specifically for an increased use of sprinklers.
This debate is taking place in the first ever fire sprinkler week. The simple message important to get across is that controlling a fire when it starts is better than repairing the damage that occurs if it is allowed to spread. It is important to pay tribute to our firefighters, who do such a great job in hazardous and dangerous circumstances. We owe it to them to reduce the risks associated with the work that they do in the communities they serve. With fire authority budgets and resources coming under increasing pressure, it is important to focus on preventing and restricting fires, and making firefighters’ jobs safer and easier. Fire chiefs and fire authorities up and down the country, including those in Suffolk, strongly advocate more widespread use of sprinklers. They are the people with first-hand knowledge and experience, and it is important that the Government listen carefully to their views.
Wessex Foods, on the south Lowestoft industrial estate in my constituency, was a large food factory that processed raw meat into burgers. On 14 July 2010, firefighters from Lowestoft fire station were called to a fire at the factory and arrived in just a few minutes. Unfortunately, the fire had already developed to such a degree that they were unable to enter the building safely to tackle the blaze. The building was completely destroyed by the fire, which took a total of 10 days to be extinguished fully. At its height, 14 fire engines and 80 firefighters were on site, and over the time it took to put out the fire, almost every firefighter in Suffolk attended the scene.
The impact on the local community was far-reaching. A factory that had been in operation for 30 years was closed permanently with the loss of 150 jobs, and there was a significant knock-on impact on the local economy. Other consequences included local road disruptions, evacuation of some nearby residents, environmental impacts, problems with pest control and odour due to rotting meat and the impact of using 50 million litres of water to tackle the fire.
Despite its size and use, the Wessex Foods building was not fitted with sprinklers. Had it been, the outcome would have been completely different. The fire would have started in much the same way, but a short time later the sprinkler head closest to the fire would have operated and suppressed or extinguished the flame. At the same time, the operation of the sprinkler would have set off the fire alarm and led to a call to the fire service. Firefighters would have arrived at the scene within a few minutes, and would have entered the building either to extinguish the small fire fully or to confirm that it had been extinguished by the sprinklers. They would have been back at their fire station within an hour. The fire at Wessex Foods is just one of many examples that reinforce the case for sprinklers to be fitted more widely.
Over the years, many myths have grown up about sprinklers, and it is important to dispel them. Myth No. 1 is that sprinklers are always going off accidentally. That is untrue. There is a one in 500,000 chance of accidental operation through damage, and the chance of accidental discharge of water due to manufacturing defects is one in 14 million. Myth No. 2 is that sprinklers operate when a smoke detector goes off—again, that is untrue. Sprinklers are not triggered by smoke; they operate as a result of high temperatures that can be produced only by a genuine fire. Myth No. 3, that all sprinkler heads operate together, is untrue. Most fires cause only one sprinkler head to operate. If more than one operates, that is due to the size of the fire and the need for more heads to operate to suppress and control it.
Myth No. 4 is that sprinkler systems use more water than firefighters. Once more, that is untrue. A fire in a building protected by a sprinkler system will be extinguished at an earlier stage due to the automatic operation of the sprinklers, which will suppress and control the fire; in some cases, the fire may even be extinguished before the firefighters arrive. A single sprinkler head uses approximately 60 litres of water per minute, whereas fires that develop and require the fire service to respond will often result in 10,000 times more water being used.
Myth No. 5, that sprinklers cause more damage than the fire, is also untrue. Not only is less water used, but the early operation of an automatic fire sprinkler system dramatically reduces fire, heat and smoke damage. Myth No. 6 is that once a sprinkler system has operated, the occupants of the home or business will need to leave for an extended period for repairs to take place. Again, that is untrue. A building protected by sprinklers will likely be returned to normal use far sooner, because the fire will be smaller and less water will be used to extinguish it; businesses are often up and running the following day.
Myth No. 7 is that sprinklers are unsightly. Again, that is untrue. Modern domestic and non-industrial sprinkler heads are fitted so that only a small disc is visible on the ceiling, and plastic pipe work is concealed in ceiling voids. Myth No. 8, that sprinklers are expensive, is untrue. A full British standard-compliant system can be supplied and installed in a new home for between 1% and 2% of the cost of the building; that is less than the cost of fitting carpets.
Myth No. 9 is that sprinklers cannot be retrofitted. That is untrue. Modern sprinkler systems can be cost-effectively retrofitted, and that has happened many times. Myth No. 10, that they are difficult and expensive to maintain, is untrue. They are relatively simple automatic systems, and have few moving parts. They require little maintenance. Finally—I am grateful to hon. Members for bearing with me—I come to myth No. 11. [Interruption.] There is a whole football or cricket team of myths. It is untrue that sprinkler systems are often subject to vandalism. Far more damage is caused by starting a fire or by flooding a building through leaving taps running and drains blocked.
I should add that there has never been a multiple fire death incident anywhere in the world in a building fitted with a sprinkler system designed to the appropriate standard for the intended purpose. The likelihood of a sprinkler going off accidentally is estimated to be about 16 million to 1, and 85% of small and medium-sized businesses that suffer a serious fire either never recover or cease trading within 18 months. The case for sprinklers is compelling.
Perhaps the myths that have grown up about fire sprinklers can be attributed to Hollywood. Sprinklers all going off at once, and dramatic fires, make good box office. “Die Hard” is the movie that gives the worst false impressions. Surprise, surprise—it grossed more than $140 million while “Backdraft” grossed more than $152 million. Yes, the characters played by Kurt Russell and William Baldwin in the latter film were real heroes, but we need a system that would remove the need to send such men into dangerous buildings.
The main benefit of sprinklers is that they are the most effective way to get further reductions in fire deaths. Research shows that 80% of fire deaths happen in the home, and that an automatic fire sprinkler system in the home, along with fire detection, reduces the risk of death or serious injury by more than 80%. Other benefits include protecting buildings—fire suppression by sprinklers reduces fire, heat and smoke damage; improving the safety of firefighters, through the containment, suppression and, often, extinguishing of a fire, without the need for them to go into the building; and an increased chance of keeping a business in production after a fire has started.
Sprinklers can also give flexibility to developers, architects and builders, by making it possible to comply with building regulations in a cost-effective way, and they reduce the environmental impact of fire; if there is less heat and smoke, less water will be used to extinguish a fire, and there will be less potential for contaminated water run-off to get into a water course.
Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)
I am very sympathetic to the case that the hon. Gentleman makes, but will he reflect on why, given all the benefits of sprinklers—reducing unnecessary fires and costs, and saving lives—businesses are so reluctant to install them without being required to do so by regulation? What does that tell us about the importance of a regulatory regime to back up the common-sense case we all accept for extending their use?
Peter Aldous
The right hon. Gentleman is of course right; often people think only about the start-up costs. They do not think about the overall picture of the cost if there should be a fire. There is a need for education and for some regulatory change.
If sprinklers are fitted, a business will usually be fully functioning again within hours of a fire starting, and a sequence of undesirable events will be prevented: business closure, with the consequent loss of jobs, and the knock-on impact to the firm’s supply chain and local businesses. Other businesses are often affected when there is a fire—surrounding businesses must stop work during a major fire, and businesses that supply the affected company or rely on its goods for their operation may temporarily or permanently lose custom or supply, which can put their future at risk.
Nearly all fires in industrial or commercial buildings cause disruption to the transport system, nearby roads, footpaths and cycleways. They may also lead to residential evacuations and school closures. They also waste water. Fire and rescue services use more than 9 billion litres of water a year—the equivalent to five times the UK’s bottled water usage—to put out fires in industrial and commercial buildings.
To coincide with the debate, the Business Sprinkler Alliance has commissioned two important items of research, to assess the impact of fires in warehouse buildings. I will not go through them in detail, because the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse has already done so, but the Centre for Economics and Business Research and BRE research have carried out compelling research.
The main focus of the first fire sprinkler week is on industrial buildings and warehouses, but I want to comment on care homes and homes for the elderly, as my hon. Friend the Member for Southend West (Mr Amess) did. We need to keep demographic change in mind. People live longer, and older people are particularly vulnerable to the ravages of fire. They cannot get out of buildings as quickly as young people, and those who suffer from dementia face added challenges. The nation is encouraging older people to continue living in their own homes, and that is right; but we need to ensure that elderly people, and especially those who live alone, have appropriate support and protection.
We should keep in mind the devastating fire earlier in the year at the Résidence du Havre care home at L’Isle-Verte in Quebec, where at least 35 people lost their lives. In 2011, as we have heard, 11 people were murdered when a fire was started deliberately at the Quakers Hill nursing home in Sydney in New South Wales. The New South Wales Government subsequently stated that their objective is for all care homes for the elderly to be fitted with sprinklers by March 2016. I fear that often we change the law reactively, responding to such tragic events rather than being proactive and preventing them in the first place. We must take that into account and become proactive.
Last year, Suffolk county council, in what was in many respects a controversial decision, transferred the running of its care homes to a private sector operator. Part of the agreement was that the new care homes that are to be built must include fire sprinklers. The county council is to be commended for insisting on that, and I urge other councils and care operators to do likewise.
What do we want to come out of the debate, and what do we want the Minister to say and the Government to think about? As we have heard, there are three requests. First, the Government should generate a dialogue with the business community, to promote increased acceptance of wider sprinkler use. Secondly, fire sprinklers should be removed from the classification of plant and machinery fixtures for rating purposes. I understand that including them generates very little revenue, and it creates a disincentive to protect commercial building stock, the environment and society from fire.
Finally, building regulations should be reviewed, with respect to the size above which sprinklers must be fitted in warehouses. The present threshold in England is 20,000 square metres. In the Netherlands it is 1,000 square metres; in Germany it is 1,200 square metres; and in France it is 3,000 square metres. Insured business losses in those competing countries are far lower than they are in the UK, where they were £865 million in 2008. In Germany in the same year, the figure in relation to damage as a result of fire was less than half that, at £400 million.
Sprinklers can bring significant benefits in preventing death and personal tragedy, providing firefighters with the protection that they deserve, making the economy more resilient, and preventing unnecessary damage to the environment. We need to promote their wider use in the context of protecting and making better use of resources that are becoming scarcer and more expensive to replace. The television presenter Nick Ross, a champion of fire sprinklers, has commented that each new fire regulation is prompted by a tragedy such as the King’s Cross fire.
We must move away from a reactive approach to a proactive and preventive one. Just over 200 years ago, in 1813, the first fire sprinkler system was installed in the Theatre Royal, Drury lane. We have not made sufficient progress in the last two centuries in promoting their wider use. Now is the time to redouble our efforts, to save lives, protect the vulnerable and safeguard jobs.
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
It is a pleasure, Mr Brady, to serve under your chairmanship. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) for securing this debate.
I pay particular tribute to my friend and colleague back in Wales, the Welsh Assembly Member for Vale of Clwyd, Ann Jones, who has led the way on sprinklers. She steered through the Assembly the Domestic Fire Safety (Wales) Measure 2011, which requires all new and converted homes to be fitted with fire sprinkler systems. That is a tremendous achievement not just for fire safety, but in legislative terms. Ann is the only Assembly Member to have steered a private Member’s Bill through the burdensome, legislative competence order process and to have her Bill passed by the Assembly. Mercifully, that provision of the Government of Wales Act 2006 was removed as a result of the 2011 devolution referendum. It was a long and arduous process, and I am pleased that Ann was able to do something bold with it.
That achievement was remarkable, but it is right to focus on the forthcoming advances in fire safety policy. I was amazed at the comments of the Secretary of State for Wales about the legislation—“bizarre” is not a word I would associate with that particular achievement. Fire sprinklers are 24/7 firefighters. The tenacity shown by Ann Jones and the Welsh Government’s Housing Minister, Carl Sargeant, means that Wales has taken the bold step to require all new homes to have those 24/7 firefighters by 2016.
Chris Ruane
Absolutely. I agree with my hon. Friend and I will relay my hon. Friend’s comment to Ann when I see her tonight.
I want to examine the comments made by the Secretary of State for Wales. In a parliamentary question, I asked what estimate his Department had made of the cost of installing fire sprinklers. The response was:
“Wales’s largest independent house builder Redrow has estimated that Welsh specific building regulations, including the requirement for all new homes to be fitted with a sprinkler, is estimated to impose an additional £13,000 to the unit building cost in Wales. I have written to the Welsh Government urging them to give further consideration”.—[Official Report, 20 May 2013; Vol. 563, c. 451W.]
That is deliberate obfuscation and muddying of the water. The cost is not £13,000. The commercial director Redrow Homes in Wales said yesterday that the Home Builders Federation
“and indeed the whole industry agrees the cost of building a standard three-bedroom home in Wales will be circa £11,000 more than building the same home in England if the Welsh Government makes sprinklers compulsory… Both the HBF and independent studies have concluded that the sprinklers alone would add around £5,000”
to the unit cost. I do not know why the Secretary of State bandied around the figure of £13,000, or perhaps I do know. The true cost is nowhere near £13,000. The company said it is only £11,000, and £5,000 for the sprinklers. The hon. Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) suggested that the cost would be 1% or 2%, which would be around £5,000. The matter should be looked at.
The Secretary of State for Wales was not the only person to criticise Ann Jones. The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government also criticised her strongly. She responded by saying:
“Mr Pickles has repeatedly cited fire sprinklers as excessive ‘red tape’ which is holding back the construction industry in Wales. However”
the Secretary of State has previously
“backed sprinklers in his home constituency of Brentwood and Ongar, saying: ‘The facts show that here in Essex people are most likely to lose their lives in a fire in their own home or in their car than at work and that many of the deaths that occur in residential fires could be prevented if a domestic sprinkler system was in operation.’”
The Secretary of State also said:
“The cost of these units is relatively low but time after time it has been proved that domestic sprinkler systems can save lives and that is a price worth paying.”
I hope it is not unparliamentary, Mr Brady, to say that I think he speaks with forked tongue. He says one thing in his constituency and another in Westminster.
There is criticism within the Government of Ann Jones’s bold move, but others have supported her. Frances Kirkham, CBE, assistant deputy coroner, wrote to the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government with her findings in the inquest into the fire at Lakanal house in July 2009. One of her six recommendations was the retrofitting of sprinklers, thought to have become cost-effective with the development of new technology.
There is cross-party support in this Chamber, and coroners have called for the fitting of sprinklers, as has the fire service—the true professionals. The Government must take their views on board. The professionals are the people who go into the houses where there are fires and rescue people. Ronnie King, former chief fire officer of Mid and West Wales fire and rescue service said:
“The first duty of a Government is surely to protect its citizens and we can only look on in envy at what the Welsh Government has achieved, after some 4 years of extensive scrutiny and intense interrogation of such a wide ranging cross section of organisations”.
He amplifies not just the monetary cost of deaths, but the emotional cost and said:
“I myself am a former Chief Fire Officer in Wales where I served as a Chief for twenty years…and during my tenure of office I failed to prevent 150 people from dying in fires in Mid & West Wales with another 6,000 from being burned or injured in fires. Some of those have been receiving continuous surgery for their injuries for over twenty five years, with a huge cost to the Health service. During my career myself and my fellow firefighters have brought out lifeless bodies of children (sometimes as many as five or six), who needn't have died in this horrific way, had sprinklers been installed.”
I visited a family in my constituency where there were multiple deaths, including children, and sat with the family, witnessing first hand what they had gone through. We are talking about people’s lives or, dare I say, people’s deaths, as well as the financial cost, which also needs to be weighed up. Actuaries have said that the cost of a fire death of a working person is £1.65 million: in 2011-12, there were 380 fire deaths, so there is a financial cost. My hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse said that the cost of damage to buildings over five years was £1 billion. The financial cost alone makes it sensible to install sprinklers, and if the emotional cost is added, it is definitely sensible.
Fire sprinklers are valuable for many reasons. They stop the spread of fire, limit the amount of damage, and often contain the fire to one room, instead of allowing it to rip through a house or engulf a room. They are good for the environment because they use far less water. On average, when a fire is put out by a fire brigade, 20 times more water is used than in a sprinkler system and there is no drenching of the house. A sprinkler system works at the source of the fire and is far more targeted, so that a fire is often put out by the activation of one sprinkler.
We have heard that the current regulations requiring smoke detectors should be sufficient. Many fire detection and alarm systems in both domestic and commercial premises produce many unwanted false alarms. That is usually because their design and installation do not comply with the requirements of the Chief Fire Officers Association’s policy on the reduction of false alarms. As a result, many fire brigades will not attend premises that have had many false alarms until a responsible person has confirmed that the premises are under threat from a real fire, but that cannot always be verified, and valuable time may be lost that could make the difference between premises and lives being saved or lost. By comparison, false alarms created by sprinkler systems are so rare that the CFOA has not even considered the need to implement a similar policy for the sprinkler industry.
Personally, I would introduce sprinklers tomorrow. I realise that Ministers and shadow Ministers have to be more cautious, but I ask them to keep an open mind. We have an ongoing experiment in Wales. We have to look at that and at the Welsh experience—perhaps we need a Welsh solution to a British problem.
Mr Graham Brady (in the Chair)
I am aiming to call the Front Bench Members to wind up at about eight minutes past 4. They will be followed by brief comments from the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) who secured the debate. Four Members still wish to speak, so if they take about seven minutes each, we will get everybody in. I shall not propose a formal time limit, but if hon. Members keep to that guideline, that will assist everybody else. I call Annette Brooke.
Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)
Thank you, Mr Brady; I will be fairly brief. I congratulate the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) on securing the debate and thank the Backbench Business Committee for agreeing to it. I was extremely impressed when I attended last week’s event, where I learned a great deal. I should perhaps also mention that Ben Ansell, the Chief Fire Officers Association lead for fire sprinklers and a Dorset fire officer, is one of my constituents.
I had not really thought in great depth about warehouses, but to me, it was absolutely astounding that the cost to the United Kingdom economy—£1 billion over five years—and the emotional cost could all be saved, perhaps not with more regulation, but with better and more appropriate regulation. My constituent, Ben, points out that we have had a number of
“successful ‘sprinkler saves’ (where fires were controlled or extinguished by sprinklers)”,
such as at Makro—just a mile away from where I live actually—in October 2013. He says:
“Here the sprinklers did their job in the early hours of the night shift and the store was trading by 9am the same day.”
What an enormous difference those sprinklers made.
Ben is concerned because one council in the area I represent has had some local Acts repealed, including one from 1986, and he fears unintended consequences, because that Act required sprinklers in certain large buildings. That has been repealed and we now have similar-sized buildings where sprinklers are not a requirement. That seems to be another argument for looking at the issue on a national level to get some consistency.
I want to touch briefly on schools, where there have been some very bad fires in my constituency. I support the comments that have been made on care homes, but as time is limited, I shall concentrate on schools. About 13 years ago, there was a very large fire at a school in my constituency and we ended up with 40 temporary classrooms. It took a long time for replacements to be built and—would you believe it, Mr Brady?—sprinklers were not installed. There was another fire at the school in 2012. It was caused by lightning, so people could not say, “I told you so,” but even after that second fire, sprinklers were resisted for the new buildings. It is absolutely incredible.
There was a fire in another school 17 years ago. I was council chairman of education and was on hand to witness the trauma to the head teacher, the staff, and to the pupils, who lost coursework, and particularly such things as artwork, which cannot be replaced. That school was rebuilt, again without sprinklers. It has just had a massive investment and I found that council members were being presented with some of the myths that my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) outlined, which is incredible. They were told that sprinklers could be set off and that having them could be more expensive. Those reasons were reported to council members to encourage them not to support the extra cost of sprinklers. I understand that the school was finally designated as low risk, so it does not have sprinklers.
Dorset fire service wants some consistency. It is absolutely delighted that a flagship school in my constituency has sprinklers—the school had about £50 million spent on it, and was a Building Schools for the Future project, so I am very pleased with Lord Knight’s recommendation—but this situation is not very helpful to the fire service. It is important that people listen to specialist advice from fire officers, and I make a plea to the Minister that we clearly need much more awareness-raising, because the myths we have discussed today are just being perpetuated. At the end of the day, that means an enormous cost in money and, at times, a cost in lives.
Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con)
I thank the Backbench Business Committee and congratulate the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) on securing the debate, which I want to take in a slightly different direction. I am proud to be an ambassador for the Derbyshire fire and rescue service. In that role, we proselytise about the great use and implementation of sprinklers. In pushing forward that brilliant plan and idea, I am delighted to tell everybody in today’s debate that my local council, South Derbyshire district council, led by the eminent councillor—apparently my husband—Mr Bob Wheeler, will be building new council housing because of the changes to housing funding, and because of that, it will be installing sprinklers in all the new council houses and council properties that it builds in future.
Along with that, part of my role as an ambassador for Derbyshire fire and rescue has involved encouraging the planning department at South Derbyshire district council to make it an informative in all new planning applications and planning permissions, both commercial and residential, that the council would encourage the developer to install sprinkler systems in new builds. At the moment, it is an informative, because it is not a matter of English building regulations. I am sure that the Minister will contemplate that point when he replies.
I again congratulate everybody involved in securing this important debate. Nobody wants people to die unnecessarily. We all know that in Derbyshire—if I can talk about that for a few more seconds—the number of fires has been reduced by 50% in the past six years or so. That is a fantastic story, but the vulnerable people and vulnerable areas where such problems persist can be identified. The fact that sprinkler systems would deal with that absolutely overnight is overwhelming, and I recommend that the Minister gives us some joyous news later in his contemplations about English building regulations.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
I apologise for being late for the start of the debate, Mr Brady. I congratulate everybody who set up sprinkler week: there has been a huge amount of debate about and emphasis on the value of sprinklers and a huge amount of knowledge has been shared in the Chamber today.
I am particularly proud of the fire service in my area. It is almost entirely staffed by retained fireman—ours is a very rural area—and all the full-time firemen are not in the station but doing other work. That work, which is fire prevention, is most important, and it is some of the best work that fire brigades have done. No fires is the best solution of all, but, sadly, fires start. It has been proved conclusively that sprinklers have a part to play in fighting those fires. They prevent death and injury, and they save property and keep firemen out of harm’s way, because the fire is often under control or even extinguished before they get to the fire.
I shall focus my remarks on one aspect. The theme of fire sprinkler week is commercial property, and it has been shown that commercial property of more than 2,000 square metres is—in financial terms, if nothing else—better served by having a sprinkler system than by not having one. However, we have been told that one difficulty encountered by commercial property developers is that water companies have no duty to connect to a sprinkler system, which seems a bit strange. We have been told that some water companies are much happier to connect to sprinkler systems than others, and some put large financial obstacles in the way. The hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) and I, and the hon. Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous), went to see the Minister to discuss whether an amendment to the Water Bill could be made in the other place to introduce a duty to connect.
Whether that will take place, I know not, but I have talked since then to Welsh Water about its approach to the problem, and I was rather sad to find out that Welsh Water is against a duty to connect. Connecting through a meter leads to a reduction in water pressure, which makes the operation of sprinklers less effective, but Welsh Water has found—this is a sad comment on human nature—that connecting without a meter leads people to steal the water from that supply. That is one reason why Welsh Water was unhappy about going down that route. It suggested that anybody who wants to build a commercial property and install sprinklers could set up quite an expensive system involving a large water store, a pump and goodness knows what. However, I still believe that the safety of people and property would be best served by a duty on water companies to connect to sprinkler systems in commercial properties. I hope that that amendment will find some favour in the future legislative process.
I am proud of the work done by Ann Jones. I think that Wales is showing the way on the issue. A report by Carl Sargeant, the Minister for housing and regeneration in Wales, says:
“From April 2014, the regulations will apply to high-risk properties such as care homes, new and converted student halls of residence, boarding houses and certain hostels and from January 2016 to all new and converted houses and flats. This phasing will allow the house building industry to gain experience and skills, and gives the sector the opportunity to innovate and reduce the costs of installing sprinklers.”
That is key. The more sprinklers go into properties, the more reduction in the cost. Now is the time to press for more regulation to ensure that people’s lives are saved and sprinkler facilities are made available to more people.
Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)
It is an absolute pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) and the hon. Members for Waveney (Peter Aldous), for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) and for Southend West (Mr Amess) on securing this timely debate, and I commend the promoters of this, the first fire sprinkler week. I applaud the promoters’ aims of widening awareness and knowledge of sprinklers and, as the hon. Member for Waveney and my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse have done so well, debunking the myths and misconceptions about sprinklers.
It is welcome that the trend in the incidence of fire fatalities has been downward and has now been stable for some time. I congratulate the current and previous Governments on that trend, as well as the fire and rescue authorities that provide vital services. It ought to go without saying, although I am pleased to say it, that it is the commitment and courage of firefighters on the front line that save lives, minimise harm, protect property and promote safety in our communities on a daily basis. As other Members have done, I pay sincere and grateful tribute to them for their work.
The facts about the incidence of fire deaths and injuries and damage to property resulting from fire are well documented and have been thoroughly referenced by hon. Members in this debate. I will touch briefly on some facts that I see as particularly relevant to fire sprinkler week. I thank the Chief Fire Officers Association and others for drawing them to my attention. In 2011-12, 380 people lost their lives in fire-related incidents in Great Britain, 287 of them in dwelling fires. It strikes me as apposite to remark that no lives were lost in the UK due to fire in homes fitted with domestic sprinklers, that fire injuries were 80% lower in sprinklered premises, and that there is a more than 90% chance that a sprinkler system that is correctly designed, installed, maintained and supplied with water will control or extinguish a fire.
How many of those 380 lives lost in 2011-12 could have been saved? How much of the trauma of bereavement and tragedy we have discussed today could have been avoided if sprinklers had been fitted? Without wanting to be mercenary when talking about people’s lives, I am conscious of the economic impact of lives lost, as my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) highlighted exceptionally well. The cost of each fatality in a road traffic accident is estimated at £1.65 million and each serious injury at £185,000. As the hon. Member for Waveney pointed out, the cost of fire-related deaths and injuries cannot be that dissimilar.
Further, sprinklers fitted in commercial and industrial premises can save British business, as my hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) pointed out when she mentioned Findus Foods. I must admit that I remember those pancakes. I am not saying I ate many, but I remember them well. Sprinklers fitted in commercial and industrial premises can save British businesses and the British economy millions of pounds of losses from entirely preventable fires. Research undertaken by the Centre for Economics and Business Research states that fires cause a direct financial loss to businesses of £230 million per year. If that is combined with the job and tax losses that follow a fire, we must clearly look seriously at the business case for sprinklers.
The figures put a practical slant on any financial deliberations we make about introducing precautions such as sprinkler systems. As a relatively new holder of the shadow fire brief, I am still learning my way around the job, so I have been travelling the country meeting councillors, fire officers and firefighters, who have been universally keen to share their views and enthusiasms with me. I have seen more fire engines in the last couple of months than in my entire life previously. Sprinklers have been on almost every agenda prepared for me, regardless of whether I have visited a county, combined or metropolitan authority.
That there is a case for sprinklers is undeniable, given the evidence about reducing deaths and business losses from fire. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd said, there were strong objections and opposition to the regulations introduced by the Welsh Government requiring the installation of sprinklers in a wide range of dwellings. The Home Builders Federation, the Federation of Master Builders and the Residential Landlords Association have all expressed concerns about the cost of installation and the impact that it will have on development.
Clearly, we need a dialogue. My purpose today is to suggest that we take a considered and intelligent approach to that dialogue, seeking cross-party consensus and aiming to build a broad coalition of interested groups with the clear intent of reducing fire deaths and injuries while achieving sensible regulation and balancing cost and benefit.
Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)
I apologise, Mr Brady, for not being able to be present at the start of the debate. My hon. Friend is making a very constructive and helpful point. Does she agree that there will be practical difficulties—the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) referred to one—but with good will and through negotiation, they can be overcome, and will she join me in urging the Minister to take up that suggestion?
Lyn Brown
I am certainly hoping to be constructive in my contribution today and not to make party political points or to take an easy option. I, too, suggest that we work together to see whether we can overcome the obstacles and objections that are being placed in our way. We need to talk about whether we need to ensure that sprinklers are provided in all care homes, in children’s homes, in new schools, in new and purpose-built student accommodation and, perhaps, in all new social rented accommodation.
Let us talk about the role of sprinklers in the domestic setting—whether we should expect in the future that more homes will be built with sprinklers and they will become commonplace and expected. Let us talk about whether the costs to builders and developers could hold back the building of much-needed homes. Let us learn from the experiences of other countries in introducing new requirements. The starting point for that dialogue should be risk.
We know what the risk factors are and we have figures for fire fatalities that illustrate the impact of that risk most graphically. For example, those over the age of 65 accounted for 40% of fire fatalities in 2011-12—a period when that age group accounted for 16.6% of the population. The figure of 40% for 2011-12 is up from the 2005-06 figure of 35.6%, showing perhaps the impact of an ageing population, as well as being a side effect of more people being able to live longer in their own homes. We know who the vulnerable groups who are more at risk of death, injury and loss from fire are: they are in homes, in the lower income bands and in more deprived areas.
We can implement our response to risk differentially, which may be one way of achieving the balance between cost and benefit and getting the best outcomes for the money spent. Requiring sprinkler systems in some categories of new build may well be part of an answer, especially where the installation of sprinklers allows cost savings elsewhere—for example, through less costly conventional fire precautions and insurance.
I thought that it was important today to press this point, despite the fact that I could not easily find a place to put it in my speech. There are already very interesting and imaginative solutions to keep high-risk individuals safe. When I visited Lincolnshire fire and rescue service on Monday, I learnt how local partners are working together to provide vulnerable adults with appropriate fire suppression devices, such as portable misting devices. They told me about the success in Humberside, where misting devices had saved lives—more than once, a misting device had extinguished a fire for a vulnerable older person.
As a Parliament, we may not wish to make an assumption that the answer is sprinklers always and everywhere, but I cannot conceive of a holder of this brief, whether in opposition or in government, who would not advocate practices that would save lives, save businesses and protect economic capacity. In my closing remarks, I want to offer the Minister cross-party co-operation and, indeed, cross-party talks to try to get consensus on the way forward on sprinklers and to consider the Government action necessary for both domestic and business properties, because I think that lives can be saved, injuries minimised, damage to property avoided and money saved if we have the will to co-operate and the motivation to succeed.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. I congratulate the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick), my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) and the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) on securing this general debate focusing on fire sprinkler week. I also congratulate all hon. Members who have spoken on the way in which the debate has been conducted. This has been a very thoughtful, well considered debate, with really strong contributions. I also appreciate the comments from the hon. Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown). In these debates, it is often all too easy for us to get into making political points. I do not doubt that some of us will do so, but as I say this has been a thoughtful and well structured debate.
Fire safety is clearly of concern to us all. I know that the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse has always taken an interest in this subject, but he has a particular interest as a former Minister with responsibility for fire safety and building regulations in the previous Administration. I am very aware that I am speaking as the fire Minister in the presence of three previous fire Ministers—they have held that position at some stage in their careers—as well as the new shadow fire Minister.
I will declare at the beginning of my speech a personal interest in the comments from the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse. He referred to Scottsdale, Arizona, and when he was speaking he may have noticed that a wry smile came across my face. I want to put him at ease as to why that was. A Mr Lewis and a Mrs Lewis, my mother and father, have a home in and spend a lot of their time living in Scottsdale, Arizona, so I can assure the hon. Gentleman that during the past 20 years I have got to know the area very well, although I have not been there as much in the past four years. I know the structures and the situation in Scottsdale, as well as the heat that is generally experienced there.
We have a lot to celebrate in the collective success that we have all had—across agencies, the fire service, local government and central Government—in making our communities safer from fire. The figures are clear. Accidental fire deaths in the home, which accounted for three fifths of all fire fatalities, have continued to fall. My hon. Friend the Member for Waveney talked about the fire service, as have other hon. Members, including the hon. Member for West Ham. It does a phenomenal job in keeping people safe from fire across the country and, of course, in the rescue work that it undertakes. Its members put their lives at risk every day, never knowing quite what will happen in the course of their shift. We should do everything we can to ensure that they are as safe as possible in their work.
People have been talking for many years about new firefighting techniques, and it is great that we are now starting to see them really develop. The coldcut technique has been around for a while, and is now being used. Many services can learn from what is being done in areas such as Manchester and Hertfordshire, where the technique is being used to fight fires in a different, transformational way: not just to cut through building materials but to bring down the temperature quickly and deal with the fire before a firefighter has to go in. It is one of the things that can lead to the figures continuing to fall, and that can keep our firefighters safe.
Let us be clear: in 2012-13 we saw the lowest number of fire deaths ever. That is good, but we all want to see the number go down even further. The number of fire deaths is down by one third compared with 10 years ago. The latest figures, for April to September 2013, show that fire casualties are down by a further 7% compared with the same period in the previous year. They are now less than half the level of 10 years ago. The number of attendances at fires is also less than half what it was a decade ago. Building fires are down by 44%; fires in the home are down by 39%; and fires in commercial and other buildings are down by 52%. The attendance at incidents overall has fallen by 46%. That is in no small part because of the safer environments in which we are all now able to live and work. Put simply, in respect of fire and a range of other emergency incidents, we are a safer society than we were 10 years ago.
The number of incidents and casualties has continued to fall in the first two quarters of 2013-14. Many in the fire sector have at times argued for more regulation to require sprinklers in domestic properties and more commercial buildings. I note that many Members have stressed that today’s debate is not about that ongoing discussion across the sector. The Government’s position has been made clear a number of times. Since taking office in 2010, the coalition Government have been very clear about their policy on sprinklers, but I want to put it on the record again. Sprinklers work. We know that. No one can deny it. The myths around sprinklers have been well explained and debunked here today. They are an effective way of controlling fires and of protecting lives and property. That is why they are required, as hon. Members know, in certain higher-risk premises, under building regulations, and why all guidance that we make available to support compliance with the fire safety order highlights sprinklers as an effective risk-mitigation measure. It is right that it does so.
However, not all buildings carry the same level of risk. Those with responsibility for ensuring fire safety in their businesses, in their homes or as landlords should and must make informed decisions on how best to manage the risks in their own properties. More and more techniques are being developed in addition to sprinklers—the hon. Member for West Ham touched on some of them—which save lives. In speaking generically of “sprinklers”, other Members may have covered some of those.
In our commitment to be the first Government to reduce regulation, we have introduced the one in, two out rule for regulation, which the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse mentioned. I reassure him that I am coming to his point about business rates. Under that rule, when the Government introduce a regulation, we will identify two existing ones to be removed. The Department for Communities and Local Government has gone further and removed an even higher proportion of regulations. In that context, Members will understand why we want to exhaust all non-regulatory options before we introduce any new regulations.
The hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse mentioned business rates for plant and machinery, and that the way in which sprinklers are assessed might act as a disincentive to installing them. Special rules to remove sprinklers from the rating system, outside the general principles relating to plant machinery, might raise issues of fairness and competition for all ratepayers concerning other building fire prevention measures, so it is difficult to see how we might take that idea forward. In addition, the Valuation Office Agency assesses rateable values independently of Ministers, and it is answerable to the courts. However, I take on board the hon. Gentleman’s comments about sprinklers and building protection mechanisms, and I will take that idea away and have a look at it. On cross-party working, which the hon. Member for West Ham mentioned, I am happy to discuss that and my response can be fed back to the all-party group.
There are always calls for Government to change building regulations, and that is often the default position of those who see regulation as an easy answer. As Members have noted today, however, it is not the only answer. We should intervene only if it is entirely necessary, and only as a last resort. As many Members have said, the core aim of today’s debate was not to call for regulation but to highlight fire sprinkler week. Although we have not carried out a fundamental review of building regulations for fire safety, we recognise that it is important to maintain and update standards. That is why we have commissioned the Building Research Establishment to look at a number of issues and to provide the evidence that we will need in future. No doubt, the use of sprinklers will form part of that work. We will ensure that experts from across industry and the wider fire sector, including organisations such as the Chief Fire Officers Association and the business sprinkler alliance, feed into those discussions.
Statistics tell us that someone is more likely to die in a fire if they do not have a working smoking alarm. That is why the Department continues to fund and support the “Fire Kills” campaign, which is designed and delivered in partnership with fire and rescue authorities. It is an excellent example of how awareness and education have influenced fire safety behaviour by providing basic fire safety information to households, in order to help them alter their behaviour and think more about fire safety as an important issue that may affect them and their families. I am pleased to see that the sector is adopting a similar approach to promoting fire safety benefits, with the creation of the first fire sprinkler week.
We all agree that a fire, whether small or large, can bring tragic devastation and loss to a business, affecting its employees, its contribution to the local economy and its ability to recover and to continue trading in the aftermath of such an incident. Members have given clear examples of that today. I welcome the recent publication of the two research reports sponsored by the business sprinkler alliance, which were undertaken by the Building Research Establishment and the Centre for Economics and Business Research. Those reports considered the environmental impact and carried out a cost-benefit analysis of fire sprinklers in warehouse buildings, which is the key focus of today’s debate. The principal conclusion of the research was that sprinklers are, on average, a cost-effective investment for warehouses that have a floor area greater than 2,000 square metres. Businesses must determine how best to comply with their statutory responsibilities in the knowledge of such information. Building owners, housing providers or home owners must be aware that other equally effective measures may be available, and such information may feed into their decisions.
We believe that it is the responsibility of the fire industry, rather than the Government, to market fire sprinkler systems effectively and to encourage their wider installation. It is clear that fire sprinklers work, and I am happy that the Government continue to emphasise that; I do not think there is any disagreement about that. Fire sprinkler week is an important part of the education process, which I hope will make industry, businesses and individuals more aware of what is possible.
I appreciate that there are differences of opinion about the costs of sprinkler systems. I spoke to Nick Ross, whose view is that a sprinkler system can be installed in a new-build house for as little as £600, and the industry will be keen to make a similar case to debunk some of the myths about cost. Research held by the Department shows that the cost per house is still in the thousands of pounds. I appreciate the argument that has been made about Wales, although no houses have yet been built under the new regulation. The cost of fitting a fire sprinkler system may affect house building—something we want to encourage—so we must wait to see what impact that regulation has.
I welcome the creation of fire sprinkler week, which is a good step by the industry, and I am sure it will help to raise awareness of the undeniable benefits of sprinklers. They enable householders, housing providers and building owners to make informed decisions about the fire safety measures that are appropriate for their circumstances. That extends beyond personal safety to property protection. The fire sector has a key role to play in helping building owners to make informed decisions about the fire safety measures that are appropriate for their circumstances. I urge the sector to continue to engage proactively with representative bodies for industry, commerce and housing providers, and to make the case for effective and proportionate fire protection. I encourage passive and active interventions in all areas of business and housing stock in England. I wish fire sprinkler week every success.
Jim Fitzpatrick
I appreciate the Minister’s comments, and I will return to them at the end. Although several colleagues have generously congratulated me on securing the debate, it was secured collectively. The hon. Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous), my hon. Friend the Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson) and I went to the Backbench Business Committee, on which we had an insider dealer—the chair of the all-party group on fire and fire safety, the hon. Member for Southend West (Mr Amess), who is not with us at the moment—lobbying for us from the inside. My hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) was a signatory to the request for the debate.
It is good to see two former fire Ministers here, my right hon. Friends the Members for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) and for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford). My right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich has been here for the whole debate and takes a keen interest in the matter. The hon. Member for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler) has a powerful local ally, and it is good to hear that they are making such good progress. She is a former West Ham United supporter—I always try to get that into debates when we are in the Chamber together.
I am delighted that the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) was able to join us. Her comments about how valuable she found the event last week demonstrate how effective such events are at opening our eyes to outside interests. I point out to those who are not members of the all-party group that it is very active and it would be great if more Members joined us. Some all-party groups have had a bit of a bad press, but ours works hard and is effective.
I am grateful to the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown) for her positive comments, and to the Minister for his supportive comments. It is good that he picked up on the offer of cross-party talks that would include business. Many of us feel that there is a need for regulation. The hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole said that she has been told of building regulations being repealed locally. I have heard stories such that, because of the repeal of the London building Acts, a number of establishments in the west end that previously were required to be sprinklered are now consulting their insurance companies about de-sprinklering because they say they would save money. There is pressure the other way on this issue—it is not all one-way traffic—so we would be grateful for whatever the Minister can do. We look forward to engaging with him in due course, and to him writing to us about business rates. I know he said that that was a difficult issue, but it might not be impossible.
As my friend, the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) said, we will be pressing the Minister’s colleague, the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson), about amendments to the Water Bill in the Lords. Some water companies are very positive, but, as was mentioned, others are very awkward. The situation is neither all good nor all bad. Evidence is emerging all the time to strengthen the case for sprinklers domestically, as well as in care establishments, nursing homes and commercial premises. The all-party group will continue to press on this issue, and we look forward to engaging with both my hon. Friend the shadow Minister and the Minister in the months and years ahead. Thank you, Mr Brady.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Statements
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
ECOFIN
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid)
A meeting of the Economic and Financial Affairs Council was held in Brussels on 28 January 2014. The following agenda items were discussed.
Current legislative proposals
The presidency provided information on the ongoing work on financial services dossiers.
Implementation of the Single Supervisory Mechanism
The European Central Bank (ECB) provided an update on the state of play of the implementation of the single supervisory mechanism (SSM). The establishment of the SSM will help to safeguard euro area financial stability and is critical to restoring market confidence over the medium term.
Presentation of the Presidency work programme
The Greek presidency presented its six-month work programme for ECOFIN. The main themes of the presidency are: growth, jobs and cohesion; further EU/eurozone integration; migration, borders and mobility; and maritime policy.
Follow-up to the European Council meeting on 19-20 December 2013
Council held an exchange of views on the December 2013 European Council conclusions regarding the implementation of the compact for growth and jobs. The UK supports the objectives of the compact to promote growth and competitiveness and tackle unemployment.
Implementation of the Stability and Growth Pact
Council endorsed a Council decision on the existence of an excessive deficit in Croatia and a council recommendation to put an end to the present excessive deficit situation.
New Homes (Change of Use)
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Nick Boles)
In May 2013, the coalition Government amended legislation to allow for offices to convert to homes without having to apply for full planning permission. The policy goal was to make it easier to convert redundant, empty and underused office space into new homes, promoting brownfield regeneration, increasing footfall in town centres and boosting housing supply.
Providing new homes
These new flexibilities have been well received by the housing industry and are helping to bring forward much needed new homes across England. A recent survey by Estates Gazette (10 January) has found that there were more than 2,250 applications for change of use from office to residential in the first six months since this change was introduced.
Some of these developments are, in themselves, each set to deliver more than 100 homes. By making efficient use of existing buildings, we are helping to tackle the housing shortage across England while simultaneously creating jobs in the construction and services industries. The significant take-up is good news.
Need for certainty
Unlike other permitted development rights, and recognising that this new national right could affect areas differently, we offered local authorities the opportunity to seek an exemption where they could demonstrate an adverse economic impact. All requests for exemption underwent a robust and thorough assessment. In total, 33 areas were exempt in 17 local authorities. We kept in place a light-touch “prior approval” process, to allow any transport, contamination and flooding issues to be addressed by councils; under a “prior approval” process, councils can still refuse the application, on these set grounds.
The specific secondary legislation was laid and scrutinised through the appropriate parliamentary processes. The London borough of Islington, and others, recently challenged this exemption process in the courts. However, their claims were dismissed by the High Court and have not been appealed.
Disproportionate use of Article 4
With permitted development rights, there may be unique circumstances where a local authority deems it appropriate to remove a national right by using what is known as an article 4 direction.
To ensure these powers are used appropriately, local authorities are required to notify my Department whenever they make a direction. This is different from the regime under the last Administration where Secretary of State’s express approval was required for most article 4 directions; now the Secretary of State has a reserve power. Importantly, the office to residential process operates differently from other permitted development rights, given the exemption process.
I am now aware of eight local authorities who have made directions which prevent office to home conversions under national rights. These directions vary in extent, some apply to entire local authority areas and others are targeted at specific sites.
Having reflected on the reasoned justification presented by each authority for their article 4 direction, and given the special exemption process which had already taken place, it is considered that the London borough of Islington and Broxbourne borough council have applied their directions disproportionately.
My Department is therefore writing to these authorities to request that they consider reducing the extent of their directions so that they are more targeted. This will ensure that offices which should legitimately benefit from this national right can do so. Ministers are minded to cancel article 4 directions which seek to reimpose unjustified or blanket regulation, given the clearly stated public policy goal of liberalising the planning rules and helping provide more homes.
Avoiding unjustified levies on the new homes
We are also aware that some local authorities may be unclear on the correct intention of the detail provisions of national legislation for office to home conversions. In some instances, authorities do not appear to have applied the correctly intended tests to determine applications for prior approval and have sought to levy developer contributions where they are not appropriate (on matters unrelated to the prior approval process). To ensure the permitted development rights are utilised fairly across England, my Department will update our planning practice guidance to councils to provide greater clarity on these points. Unjustified state levies should not be applied in any attempt to frustrate the creation of new homes.
Conclusion
These practical planning reforms are providing badly needed new homes on brownfield sites, close to urban locations and transport links, at no cost to the taxpayer.
Yet a small minority of town halls are trying to undermine these reforms, not least, since they are unable to hit such builders with state levies or since they may have an irrational objection to more private housing. Yet, these conversions coming forward will help offer competitively priced properties, accessible to hard-working people. Moreover, those who seek to oppose these changes need to spell out exactly where they think new homes should go instead given the pressing demand for housing and the need to protect England’s beautiful countryside.
Ministers wish to send a clear message to the housing industry that we will act to provide certainty, confidence and clarity, and that we are supporting their investment in these new homes to bring underused property back into productive use as housing.
Bellwin Scheme
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles)
As announced by the Prime Minister the Government are enhancing the terms of the Bellwin scheme to help local authorities in England meet the immediate costs associated with protecting lives and properties in response to the recent severe weather events and the east coast tidal surge.
The changes for the Bellwin scheme will be:
Bellwin grant to be paid at 100% above threshold instead of 85%;
Extension of the eligible spending period until the end of March 2014;
Reduced Bellwin thresholds for all county councils and unitary authorities; and
An additional measure to allow upper-tier authorities with responsibility for fire to claim Bellwin on a comparable basis to stand-alone fire authorities for fire-related costs.
Bellwin grant reimburses local authorities for costs incurred on, or in connection with, their immediate actions to safeguard life and property or to prevent suffering or severe inconvenience as a result of a disaster or emergency in their area.
The standard Bellwin scheme provides for reimbursement of eligible costs at 85% above a threshold—of 0.2% of the authority’s net revenue budget. The threshold recognises that councils have a long-established responsibility to prepare cover for unforeseen events. Beyond that level, Bellwin comes into play.
The enhanced scheme terms reflect the exceptional nature of the recent weather events and the challenges facing local authorities in their role as first responders.
The changes to the Bellwin scheme terms will apply to applications relating to the severe weather events in England from 5 December 2013 to date. Revised terms and thresholds will be issued to all local authorities who have registered or who continue to register for Bellwin assistance from these events.
For the longer term I am committed, along with colleagues from across Whitehall, to undertake a review of the Bellwin scheme to assess what changes may be needed to its operation in the light of more frequent and challenging weather events.
Support for other parts of the United Kingdom is a matter for the devolved Administrations.
I would like to put on record again my thanks to all of those emergency responders, local authorities and charitable organisations who have worked to protect and support flood affected communities throughout this time. I will continue to update the House on recovery progress.
Red Arrow Hawk XX177 (Service Inquiry)
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Anna Soubry)
I wish to inform the House of the findings of the service inquiry into the accident involving RAF Aerobatic Team Hawk T Mk 1 XXI77 on 8 November 2011, in which Flight Lieutenant Sean Cunningham was tragically killed.
On the day of the accident, Flight Lieutenant Cunningham was undertaking pre-flight checks at RAF Scampton when the front cockpit ejection seat firing sequence was inadvertently initiated and he was ejected from the aircraft. The main parachute failed to deploy and he sustained fatal injuries.
A service inquiry was convened by the director general of the Military Aviation Authority to examine the cause of the accident and to make recommendations to prevent recurrence. The service inquiry panel has conducted an independent, thorough and objective inquiry and its report has been completed.
A copy of the full service inquiry report has been provided to relevant defence stakeholders to ensure the timely dissemination of these air safety lessons. The recommendations have all been addressed or are in the process of being addressed.
The coroner’s inquest into the death of Flight Lieutenant Cunningham has now concluded. As such, a copy of the service inquiry, redacted in accordance with the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 2000, is being placed in the Library of the House today and on the gov.uk website.
Kings Science Academy
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove)
Members of Parliament have tabled parliamentary questions seeking information relating to the financial management of Kings science academy in Bradford, including requests for details of discussions involving the Department for Education and those involved in the management of the school. The ongoing police investigation means that it would not be appropriate to release details at this time, and this statement seeks to clarify the Government’s responsibilities in this regard.
It is in the public interest to maintain confidence in law enforcement and the criminal justice system, and allow the relevant agencies to carry out their investigation. West Yorkshire police have told the Department for Education that, due to the ongoing investigation, the Government must not release information into the public domain which is relevant to the case. West Yorkshire police must be allowed to complete their investigation into matters at Kings science academy—and make their judgments about referrals to the Crown Prosecution Service—without information that might be relevant to their case being put into the public domain. The parameters of the investigation are, quite rightly, for West Yorkshire police to determine.
Therefore until such time as those investigations are concluded, and a determination regarding the case is reached, it would not be appropriate to release the information held by the Department. This would be consistent with the application of the exemption at section 31 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
Contingent Liability: Nuclear Decommissioning Authority Indemnification
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Michael Fallon)
The Nuclear Decommissioning Authority is responsible for the decommissioning and clean-up of the United Kingdom’s civil public nuclear legacy sites, using competition for contracts to bring in world-class expertise to enhance innovation, improve clean-up and deliver value for money.
The NDA’s competition to choose a new parent body organisation (PBO) to take ownership of Magnox Ltd and Research Sites Restoration Ltd (RSRL) site licence companies (SLCs) is well advanced. Final bids were submitted last November and are currently being evaluated. The competition is scheduled to be concluded, with share transfer, in September 2014.
As with previous PBO competitions, none of the bidders would be prepared to participate in the competition if the NDA was not prepared, on the appointment of a new PBO, to give an indemnity to the incoming PBO, its affiliates and the SLCs against certain third party nuclear liabilities falling outside the scope of the Nuclear Installations Act 1965 (“NIA 1965”). There is currently no viable commercial insurance available to cover such liabilities.
A departmental minute will be presented to Parliament today, giving notice of a contingent liability for the issuing of an indemnity by the NDA to the incoming PBO when the competition is completed and the contract awarded.
We believe that there is a very strong case for this indemnity. An indemnity is a prerequisite to awarding the contract and securing the benefits of the competition. There is only a very low probability of a claim being brought under the indemnity and our assessment is that the benefits of the NDA contracting with a new PBO outweigh the small risk that the indemnity may be called upon.
Gifting of Equipment (Syria)
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
The conflict in Syria remains catastrophic, with over 125,000 people killed and more than half the Syrian population in need of humanitarian assistance. The UK will continue to do all it can to end the conflict through a political settlement, while also alleviating humanitarian suffering and protecting UK national security.
The UK is committed to working with the moderate opposition to help develop their capacity to meet needs on the ground and to reduce suffering and to save lives, thereby also helping reduce the space for extremists to operate. In line with this approach, on 23 January, I laid before Parliament a departmental minute which set out our plans to expand a UK-funded pilot project to train and equip local council civil defence teams, enabling them to provide search and rescue, fire fighting and first aid services in areas under attack. I am pleased to present a further UK contribution of practical support to the moderate opposition, aimed at improving community policing.
The UK intends to work with international donors to provide training, technical assistance, maintenance funds, and basic equipment to the Free Syrian Police operating in opposition-controlled areas of Syria. The UK also intends to support the development of greater community oversight and monitoring of the police to help ensure that police are responsive to local needs. Through this support the UK is aiming to help improve humanitarian conditions, meet basic needs and build community resilience to counter the threat from extremist groups. If this initial phase is successful, developing the capacity of community policing could become a core aspect of the UK’s ongoing support to the opposition.
The departmental minute laid today sets out in more detail our plans to gift office and communications equipment, uniforms, and non-armoured vehicles to the Free Syrian Police. The goods will be procured, distributed and delivered by a carefully selected implementing partner. The total cost of the proposed gift is £910,000, which will be met by the Government’s Syria conflict prevention programme. Other donors, including the United States of America and Denmark, are also contributing on a similar scale and the UK’s assistance forms part of a co-ordinated approach that will help deliver the best value for money.
The gift forms part of a comprehensive UK programme of training and technical assistance worth approximately £2 million, which will be delivered by implementing partners. The training aims to build the capacity of the Free Syrian Police including through developing their strategy, planning and management mechanisms and enhancing co-ordination between Free Syrian Police units, as well as strengthening the relationship between police actors and local communities.
There is a strong need to support the Free Syrian Police, who are responsible for providing basic civilian policing in large areas of opposition-controlled territory. Police actors, local administrative councils and the National Coalition’s interim Ministers have all underlined to us the need to improve policing and security, and we have worked closely with Syrian partners and other donors to design a comprehensive programme of support.
The gift has been scrutinised to ensure that the provision of this equipment is consistent with export controls and complies with our international obligations. Recipients have been carefully selected to prevent equipment being given to those involved in extremist activities or human rights violations. All our assistance is carefully calibrated and legal, is aimed at alleviating human suffering and supporting moderate groups and is regularly monitored and evaluated. We have assessed the project for human rights risks, using the overseas security and justice assistance guidelines established by the Foreign Secretary in 2011 as part of ensuring these risks are effectively mitigated.
The Treasury has approved the proposal in principle. If, during the period of 14 parliamentary sitting days beginning on the date on which the departmental minute was laid before the House of Commons, a Member signifies an objection by giving notice of a parliamentary question or a motion relating to the minute, or by otherwise raising the matter in the House, final approval of the gift will be withheld pending an examination of the objection.
Westminster Foundation for Democracy (Triennial Review)
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
The Foreign and Commonwealth Office will shortly commence a triennial review of the Westminster Foundation for Democracy (WFD). It is Government policy that all Government Departments are required to review their non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) at least every three years.
The review will be conducted in two stages. The first stage will examine the key functions of the WFD. The second stage of the project will ensure that WFD is operating in line with the recognised principles of good corporate governance. Copies of the review will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses.
Deaths in Custody
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
I am today announcing that the Government will be establishing an independent review into the self-inflicted deaths of 18 to 24-year-olds in custody.
The Government are committed to the safety of offenders and in particular to reducing the number of deaths in custody. Although there are already comprehensive investigations into individual deaths we recognise there is benefit at this time in collating lessons that may be system-wide. The purpose of the review will be to make recommendations for reducing the risk of future deaths in custody. Although the review will focus on 18 to 24-year-olds it will identify learning that will benefit any age group.
The review will be conducted by the Independent Advisory Panel on Deaths in Custody. I am grateful to Lord Harris of Haringey, chair of the IAP, for agreeing to lead the review. The review will report by spring 2015. Full terms of reference are available at: http://www.justice. gov.uk/about/deaths-in-custody-independent-review and copies will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses.
The Youth Justice Board will also shortly be publishing a report setting out action taken and lessons learned in respect of deaths in custody in the under-18 secure estate. A summary of some the key actions taken by the Youth Justice Board and the Government to respond to findings from the deaths of children in custody is available at the link above. The YJB’s report will be published after it has taken steps, where appropriate, to contact the families whose children are mentioned in the report.
The Government issued a consultation in November 2013 on transforming management of young adults—aged 18 to 20—in custody. As the IAP review will focus on deaths in custody of this particular age group we want to receive the recommendations from the review before we respond to the consultation. We will consider the responses to the consultation alongside the outcome of the review process, and will issue the Government response to the consultation having taken into account the responses and the recommendations from the IAP’s review.
We will continue to make improvements to relevant operational practice as regards the current young adult estate, such as bolstering the system for young people transitioning from the youth to young adult estate.
Transforming Rehabilitation
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
I would like to update the House about the fact that we have now moved into the next phase of the competition to award new regional rehabilitation contracts. Engagement continues with around 50 providers who make up the 30 bidders involved in our probation reforms and we have now formally invited them to submit bids.
Alongside this, an updated version of the target operating model for the reforms will be published shortly. The target operating model explains how the new system will work on the ground, and what the respective roles of the national probation service and community rehabilitation companies (CRCs) will be, including where CRCs will have the opportunity to innovate in how they rehabilitate and support offenders, including through mentoring.
I will also shortly publish a revised list of designated resettlement prisons following a review undertaken as a result of changes to the prison estate and discussions with criminal justice partners.
Copies of the revised targeted operating model and list of resettlement prisons will be shortly made available in the Libraries of both Houses. Copies of the draft contracts will be made available in the Libraries of both Houses later this month.
Rail Infrastructure
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
I would like to inform the House of the intention to award Crossrail’s rolling stock and associated depot facilities contract to Bombardier. In line with European procurement rules, the contract is now subject to a 10-day standstill period. Until this period is over, the contract award cannot be confirmed and Bombardier is unable to release information related to its bid.
The contract, which includes the supply, delivery and maintenance of 65 new trains and a depot at Old Oak Common for up to 32 years, has a capital value of around £1 billion. The contract will be between the successful bidder and Transport for London who will operate Crossrail as part of their services.
Together with the Mayor of London, my co-sponsor on the Crossrail project, I welcome this major milestone which Crossrail Ltd has reached ahead of schedule, ensuring the first trains are delivered by 2017 ahead of services commencing through the new central tunnels in late 2018.
Hon. Members will recall that the invitation to negotiate required bidders to meet a set of “responsible procurement” requirements on how they would engage with the wider supply chain and provide opportunities for training, apprenticeships, and small and medium-sized businesses within their procurement strategy.
Alongside this, bidders were asked to set out an estimate of the value of the contract that will be spent in the UK. While this was not an assessment criterion in the decision process, the successful bidder will be required to report against it following contract award.
Today, on the basis of that information, I can confirm that an estimated 74% of contract spend will remain in the UK economy as a result of this announcement.
Bombardier has confirmed that the new trains will be manufactured and assembled at their plant in Derby. This contract will support 760 UK manufacturing jobs plus 80 apprenticeships adding to the 55,000 jobs which will be supported by the Crossrail project over its lifetime.
The construction of the maintenance depot at Old Oak Common will see 244 jobs, plus16 apprenticeships and when fully operational will employ 80 people to maintain to the new fleet of trains.
Grand Committee
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Arrangement of Business
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bichard) (CB)
My Lords, welcome to the Grand Committee. If there is a Division in the House, the Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes.
Health: Neglected Tropical Diseases
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Hayman
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress has been made in combating neglected tropical diseases since the London Declaration in 2012; and how that issue will feature in the post-2015 Millennium Development Goals health agenda.
Baroness Hayman (CB)
My Lords, I am delighted to have the opportunity to introduce today’s debate on progress in combating neglected tropical diseases and I draw attention to my non-financial interests in health and development, particularly as a trustee of the Sabin Vaccine Institute and the Malaria Consortium. I am also delighted that what many would consider an abstruse and minority interest subject has attracted such a large and expert speakers list—and even an equally distinguished audience in the Moses Room—and I look forward to hearing the contributions.
I am also glad to see the noble Lord, Lord Bates, here today as the Minister replying. I welcome him to our world of worms, snails, flukes and flies, the vectors of the group of parasitic and bacterial diseases that are categorised as neglected tropical diseases—NTDs. Of course, these diseases—afflictions such as river blindness, human hookworm and elephantiasis—are not actually part of our world as people who live in rich, developed countries. They are the diseases of the world’s poorest people, predominantly the rural poor. For them, NTDs are far from abstruse or a specialised interest; they are illnesses that affect one in six of the world’s population and blight the development of half a billion of the world’s poorest children.
Although NTDs do not cause as many immediate deaths as AIDS, TB and malaria, they kill, they maim and disfigure and they stunt and disable, causing decades of pain and, often, isolation. These diseases not only have direct effects but also weaken the immune system, cause anaemia, put infected individuals at higher risk of contracting other diseases and impair the ability to resist infection. They increase the risks in pregnancy and childbirth and they can have a negative effect on the efficacy of treatments for diseases such as TB. The link in particular between genital schistosomiasis and HIV infection, particularly in young women, has not been taken seriously enough in the past. Beyond those health effects, NTDs also form a terrible barrier to education and employment. They are not only the diseases of poverty; they are the diseases that cause poverty. Combating NTDs is therefore one of the best routes to cutting the cycle of poverty itself and to the sustainable development that we all seek.
The good news is that, unlike with many diseases, we have many of the tools necessary to combat those afflictions. We know that the combination of mass drug administration and water and sanitation projects, for example, can result in dramatic benefits and reduction in the incidence of disease. With concerted effort, with research into new vaccines, new diagnostics, new insecticides and medicines, with improved mapping and monitoring, with operational research, we could make much more progress. Much of that work is in train in academic institutions, in the voluntary sector and in the countries themselves
The London declaration of 2012, whose second anniversary we mark with this debate, was hugely important, because it brought together funders, both national and philanthropic, pharmaceutical companies that donate the drugs necessary for mass drug administration programmes and endemic countries themselves in an effort to co-ordinate the fight against these diseases. Together with the ongoing support of the World Health Organisation, which has championed this work in recent years, we have seen a significant shift in the global prioritisation of neglected tropical diseases. Their inclusion in the healthy lives goal of the high-level panel on the post-2015 development agenda, published in May last year, was, I believe, a crucial step forward.
I welcome, too, the formation of NTD coalitions, such as the very successful one that we have in the UK, in countries across the world and, particularly importantly, the drawing up of integrated NTD control strategies in endemic countries. The academic and voluntary sector, both of which are so strong in the United Kingdom, have much to offer both in research and in resource. For example, the London Centre for Neglected Tropical Disease Research, which had just been launched when we debated this subject a year ago, works continuously to improve the effectiveness of control measures. We need to know how to do what we do better. Such technical support will be essential for plans such as the recently drawn-up Africa regional NTD strategy if it is to be successful.
As well as technical support, money remains an issue. Even given the relative cheapness—we know that many would argue that treating NTDs was the best bang for your buck that you could get in public health expenditure—and the cost efficiency of NTD control work, given the extensive drug donations, it has been estimated that there is still a £200 million funding gap to be bridged if we are to meet the goals of the London declaration. I am not asking Her Majesty’s Government to meet that gap themselves; they have already been generous and committed in this area. However, I ask the Minister what progress the Government are making in championing investment in NTD work with other key international donor Governments, particularly perhaps France, Germany and Australia.
As we have recently and sadly seen with polio eradication, conflict can threaten to destroy the painstaking work of decades. When countries experience violence and civil wars, health programmes and the benefits that they provide to the poor and the marginalised are threatened. Through the Malaria Consortium, I know of the situation in South Sudan. There, it is working on DfID-supported programmes and bringing long-standing expertise in malaria to bear on programmes to combat neglected tropical diseases. We have discussed in your Lordships’ House before the issue of not working in silos in this area. Members of the charity’s staff had to be evacuated during the recent violence and have only just been able to return. I pay tribute to the courage and commitment of the very many—both local and international—NGO workers throughout the world who continue to operate in extremely difficult and often dangerous circumstances. On the specifics of South Sudan, I understand that the DfID NTD programme, though not the malaria programme, is on hold because of the perceived continuing dangers. I wonder whether the Minister could give any indication today, or perhaps in writing, of when that programme might be restarted.
I return to the issue of a post-2015 millennium development goal. Combating NTDs punches above its weight in broader health and wider development terms. We need to renew and reinvigorate our commitment to research, prevention and treatment programmes. By integrating existing strategies such as mass drug administration with broader public health programmes such as those on water, sanitation and education, we not only enhance the effectiveness of those strategies but start to build from the bottom up the sort of universal health coverage and health systems needed to underpin development. Therefore, I end by congratulating the Government on the leadership that they, together with the United States, have given so far and I urge them to ensure that NTD control features in the final formulation of the sustainable post-2015 health agenda.
Lord Stone of Blackheath (Lab)
My Lords, it was the passion and expertise of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, that brought me into this world. More than 200 million individuals in Africa are infected by schistosomiasis, causing malnutrition, stunting, anaemia and eventually early death through liver disease and bladder cancer. Dr Alan Fenwick and his team at the Schistosomiasis Control Initiative at Imperial College run huge and detailed programmes that reduce all this enormously. I declare a non-financial interest as a trustee. His team and I are concerned first with the humanitarian effects and alleviating suffering. I am there not as a medic but to see that the charitable moneys are used cost effectively—and they certainly are.
In Africa, in 10 countries that receive aid from us, 50 million people lose their ability to work each year to these diseases. Even if they each earn a dollar a day, this amounts to $18 billion a year lost through disability. DfID is currently investing £50 million over five years towards the control of schistosomiasis and intestinal worms. For this amount, we will be heading to eliminate these infections in two of these countries and, for an estimated £50 million more, we could approach elimination in another four of these countries. It will take longer in the larger countries such as Ethiopia and DRC, but I was in Egypt only this weekend, where they have demonstrated that it can be done.
Since the London declaration in January 2012, we have certainly taken several positive steps. Donations from the pharmaceutical industry have increased. GSK and Johnson & Johnson have donated more de-worming medicines, and more than 700 million people every year receive albendazole either for lymphatic filariasis control or worm treatment or both. Merck has increased its donation of praziquantel from an annual 25 million to 250 million tablets in 2016, enough to treat 100 million children every year. But this is not elimination.
The member states of the 2012 World Health Assembly adopted a resolution to try to eliminate schistosomiasis where feasible by 2020. All that is being done will help to reach elimination in some countries but not without technical assistance and supplementary funding. In addition, DfID has doubled its support and between 2011 and 2016 we will assist Governments in the 10 countries to deliver 200 million treatments. Mindful business people have stepped in, such as Luke Ding, who manages his philanthropy through Prism the Gift Fund, where I am a trustee. We administer the giving by individuals such as Luke and by large foundations by helping them to gift significant amounts to charities cost effectively. Luke made a donation last year of £275,000 to assist SCI in general and our programme in Madagascar.
All this is great. We know that we could reach elimination with economic development and better water and sanitation, which could be done by pulling together British and American aid programmes to work synergistically across Africa. With an additional sum of £200 million for 2014 and 2020, we would have the guaranteed funding for the programme for the integrated control of schistosomiasis in sub-Saharan Africa, or ICOSA. We could expand coverage and move towards the WHO target of elimination of schistosomiasis in particular and the other NTDs in the poorest rural communities in Africa. That sounds a lot of money, but noble Lords should remember that the successful elimination would save 50 million DALYs—disability annual lost years—which would mean $18 billion a year saved for ever more. Will the Minister meet us and our partners to plan how this might be organised?
Lord Chidgey (LD)
My Lords, first I must apologise because I have come to this debate with a finely honed speech of just three minutes to find that I actually have four. I could spend that being rude to people, but I shall promise not to. There will be some extra time at the end that noble Lords might want to share among themselves, if they are a bit worried about the length of their speeches. Anyway, here comes my three minutes.
The London declaration in 2012 on neglected tropical diseases set a target for control and eradicating at least 10 of these devastating diseases by 2020. The commitment was to sustain, expand and extend programmes that ensure the supply of drugs and other interventions to help to eradicate these 10 diseases. International donors such as DfID could address this by explicitly targeting NTD programming at the poorest and most marginalised populations. When the Minister replies, I hope that he can comment on that and on what DfID’s role will be.
In the list of NTDs, Guinea worm disease caught my attention because, in my relative youth, I worked for some years in the rainforests and mountains of Guinea in west Africa. Tropical diseases flourished there, but never once did I come across Guinea worm.
As some noble Lords may know, Guinea worm is a parasitic infection contracted by drinking contaminated water containing water fleas harbouring infective Guinea worm larvae. Inside the human’s abdomen, the larvae mate and female worms mature and grow. They grow as long as three feet or more and, after a year of incubation, the worm creates a lesion in the skin and slowly emerges from the host person’s body. The contamination cycle begins when the victims immerse their limbs in water to ease their agonising pain, stimulating the emerging worm to release larvae into the water and begin the cycle all over again. Guinea worms can be removed by winding them around a small stick and manually extracting them in a slow and painful process which can take several weeks.
Through the intervention of the Carter Center and its partners, cases of Guinea worm have been reduced by more than 99.9% since 1986. In 2013, only approximately 150 cases were reported, mainly in South Sudan. Guinea worm disease is on track to be only the second disease in history to be eradicated after smallpox. Sadly, this is only one success.
However, it is worth comparing to the situation with tuberculosis. As far as I am aware, about 20 years ago TB too was believed to be on the point of eradication. I am not a medical man and I am not sure, but that is what I recall. Somehow that initiative was lost and now TB is the second most deadly disease in the world. It is estimated to have killed more people than any other pandemic in history. It is shocking to find that only one new TB drug has been developed in the past 42 years.
Even more troubling is that a signatory to the London declaration on NTDs appears to have effectively abandoned that commitment. According to a recent edition of the Times, AstraZeneca, the UK’s second largest drug company, has confirmed it will no longer carry out early stage research into NTDs, TB and malaria. It will be focusing instead on making products that attract big profits. It seems to be effectively turning its back on the poor.
The NTDs affect the achievement of almost all millennium development goals. There is unquestionably a case for strengthening NTD control and elimination programmes and for the inclusion of NTDs within the health goal in the MDG framework. Do the Government accept this case? In so doing, they would recognise the plight of more than 1.4 billion desperately poor people blighted by NTDs.
Lord Patel (CB)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a chancellor of the University of Dundee, which has a drug development unit that focuses on finding treatments for five of the key neglected tropical diseases—human African trypanosomiasis, Chagas disease, visceral leishmaniasis, malaria and tuberculosis—and which has only recently announced a potential drug for the treatment of malaria.
However, today I wish to speak not about drug development at Dundee—fantastic though it is—but, in the few minutes that I have, about why a focus on neglected tropical diseases should be given priority in women’s health and gender equality in the millennium development goals post 2015, alongside HIV/AIDS, nutrition, access to contraception and poverty reduction.
I shall speak specifically about two helminth infections—hookworm infections and schistosomiasis. These are the two key infections affecting women living in poverty in Africa and elsewhere today. Nearly 40 million women of childbearing age and 7 million pregnant women per year are infected, leading to increased maternal, neonatal and infant mortality, not to mention increased morbidity. Further, more than 10 million women suffer from genital schistosomiasis. Apart from causing much pain and distress, this condition also is linked to horizontal transmission of the HIV/AIDS virus and is a possible major factor in the AIDS epidemic. Hence, it is important for the control of HIV/AIDS, particularly in Africa.
It is believed from research carried out that highly vascular and CD4+ cell-enriched patches in the cervix or elsewhere in the female genital tract may provide host entry routes for sexually transmitted HIV, although other mechanisms are plausible. There is an urgent need for expanded studies. If this is shown to be true, it would be a major case, allowing millions of young women who are infected to control HIV/AIDS. Such findings are therefore critical for designing potential intervention strategies of the future.
A recent publication by Hotez and Whitham in the American Journal of Obstetrics & Gynaecology—I am an honorary fellow of the college—highlights in detail the problems and the solutions. An urgent expansion of mass drug administration, not only to children but to women of childbearing age, for the eradication of hookworm and schistosomiasis is needed. Current programmes hardly reach a third of the children in Africa and less then 10% of young girls, particularly women. Millennium development goals post 2015 should include new policies and advocacy of neglected tropical diseases, including the elimination of helminth infection, which is possible, and better alignment. Control of these infections to HIV/AIDS and malaria control is what is required, hence the need for the inclusion of neglected tropical diseases in the millennium development goals post 2015. I hope the Minister will ensure that the UK will support that.
Lord Sheikh (Con)
My Lords, I am interested in this subject as I was born and brought up in east Africa. I have seen how the diseases that we are discussing today affect the lives of people. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, for initiating this debate.
I applaud this Government’s continued commitment to international aid. Combating disease is a crucial part of this programme. We are now marking the two-year anniversary of the historic London declaration on neglected tropical diseases. Neglected tropical diseases affect more than a billion people throughout the world. They often affect the poorest people in the hardest-to-reach areas. The combined personal and family suffering also translates into wider economic hardship, trapping communities in a cycle of poverty. Eliminating NTDs is thought to be one of the most cost-effective and comprehensive ways to achieve development goals and eliminate poverty. Therefore, it is important that work to combat NTDs is absorbed into wider-scale initiatives on poverty.
Prevention is also a key principle. Measures such as better health education, greater nutrition and the provision of safe drinking water will help to reduce cases in the first instance. We must celebrate the progress that has been made in a number of ways. We have made political progress. Last May, 32 countries took part in deliberations during which the World Health Assembly adopted a resolution on all 17 neglected tropical diseases. This resolution calls for more effective financing and implementation of prevention and eradication programmes. It makes important references to increasing access to treatments. I am proud that the United Kingdom strongly supported this resolution and has pledged to continue playing an important role in this respect.
We have made progress on awareness. Neglected tropical diseases are receiving more coverage than ever before and are firmly on the international agenda. The engagement and generosity of pharmaceutical companies must also be noted. We now have all the treatments required to control and eliminate the seven most common NTDs. These account for over 90% of the global burden.
Although we have made progress, though, we must of course not be complacent. It is still necessary to further increase and maintain this progress if we are to reach our target. The millennium development goals expire in 2015. This provides us with a perfect opportunity to renew and accelerate the focus on eradicating NTDs. In its report last summer, the High-level Panel of Eminent Persons on the Post-2015 Development Agenda included the reduction of NTDs as part of its recommended goal of ensuring healthy lives.
In my view, the 2020 road map for the elimination of at least 10 diseases by the end of the decade is firmly in sight. It is very ambitious but I believe that it can, and I hope will, be achieved.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, I, too, pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Hayman for her assiduous and indefatigable commitment to the elimination of neglected tropical diseases. I should mention that I am a patron emeritus of the Liverpool School for Tropical Medicine, which is one of the partners in the Global Network for neglected tropical diseases and is a leader in NTD research. I am also a patron of a project providing clean water in Turkana and a health project in Ghana.
As recently as 27 January, former Ghanaian President John Kufuor was in London to mark the anniversary of the 2012 declaration. He rightly says:
“There is no silver bullet remedy to helping a country break the cycle of poverty, but investing in the health of its population offers one of the best options for unlocking economic potential”.
Scaling up integrated NTD control and elimination strategies is considered one of the most cost-effective ways to reduce global poverty. Virtually all of the “bottom billion”, the 1.4 billion people around the world who are living on less than $1.25 a day, are afflicted with one or more of the seven most common NTDs: elephantiasis, hookworm, river blindness, roundworm, whipworm, trachoma and snail fever. NTDs disable, debilitate and perpetuate poverty and in worst-case scenarios they can kill. They cause blindness, huge swelling in appendages and limbs, severe malnutrition and anaemia—all brilliantly highlighted, I might add, in the END7 Youtube video featuring Eddie Redmayne and others.
Those afflicted include more than 500 million children. In a randomised controlled trial in Ethiopia, researchers found that consistently treating trachoma halved childhood mortality, while a study in Kenya demonstrated that deworming children leads to a 25% decrease in school absenteeism. Compare the cost of one cup of coffee at Starbucks, which can range from £1.75 to £3.50, to the fact that just 30p—or 50 cents, half a US dollar—per person per year is all that is needed to treat and protect one person against all seven NTDs. This in turn averts malnutrition, improves education outcomes, improves maternal and child health, reduces new cases of HIV and sets the stage for sustainable economic development. In Africa, the entire at-risk population could be treated for £250 million or less annually. Yet efforts to control and eliminate NTDs receive less than 2% of total global health funding, and the elimination of many of the NTDs will not be achieved without significant investment in water and sanitation interventions. Such an approach should surely be central to post-2015 objectives, and I hope that we will hear from the Minister on this.
I am particularly concerned that the 2013 report of the Sustainable Development Solutions Network, An Action Agenda for Sustainable Development, does not mention NTDs. Surely that should be rectified. I hope that the Minister will comment on that.
Many of the curses that afflict us cannot be conquered but NTDs can. These ancient diseases can and should be a thing of the past, and it is not misty romanticism or idealism to talk of a world free of NTDs for the next generation. This is achievable, and we would be failing millions, and failing our duty, not to do it. My noble friend therefore deserves our thanks for keeping this issue on the agenda, and the United Nations and development agencies should be lobbied by parliamentarians and Governments the world over to make this achievable objective a reality. I hope that the Minister will tell us that the Government are committed to doing precisely that.
Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe (Lab)
My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend Lady Hayman for introducing this timely debate and for her continued commitment to bringing this important subject to our attention.
The promises made by the pharmaceutical companies, global health organisations and government representatives in the London declaration two years ago were truly admirable. They were intended to be game-changing and I am delighted to hear from my noble friend that the drug donations, research and development funding and co-operation are making real inroads in the attempt to control, eliminate or eradicate the 10 named NTDs by 2020. The promise of the pharmaceutical companies under the London declaration to donate many more drugs, worth hundreds of millions of dollars a year, was a wonderful step but, as Dr Margaret Chan, director-general of the World Health Organisation, said at the time, drug donation is one solution but not the only solution.
In my four minutes, I will stress the importance of our investment in research into NTDs and highlight the work of some of our health-focused universities and their major contribution to development. The UK is a hub of research excellence, with many academics from different institutions all contributing to the fight against NTDs. Their work has global impact and changes the lives of some of the poorest people on the planet. The breadth of UK academic expertise and research in this area is world-leading. It covers anthropology, public health, basic science, epidemiology, clinical medicine, mathematical modelling and operational research.
Two institutions leading the way are Imperial College and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. Together with the Natural History Museum, they last year formed the London Centre for Neglected Tropical Disease Research. The centre’s research builds on the long-standing expertise of UK academics in the epidemiology and transmission of NTDs, such as that of Professor Alan Fenwick, whose team, working with ministries of health across sub-Saharan Africa, assisted in the delivery of 100 million treatments in Africa and, indeed, the Middle East during 2013. Other speakers have referred to the research priorities of the centre, including bilharzia and intestinal worms.
Elsewhere in the UK, our universities are well placed for multidisciplinary approaches from the bench to the field. The Drug Discovery Unit at Dundee, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, has made major breakthroughs in NTD research, with £10 million of funding from the Wellcome Trust, including more than £8 million for a partnership with GlaxoSmithKline. Its teams work across academia, industry and the charitable sector worldwide.
There is always more that needs to be done. For example, there has been very little research into Buruli ulcer, an NTD in the leprosy family which is on WHO’s road map but not included in the London declaration. The exact mode of transmission is still unknown. There is no vaccine for primary prevention, and secondary prevention is based on early detection. WHO says that 80% of cases detected early can be cured with a combination of antibiotics. But early detection and antibiotic treatment require health education at community level, training of health workers and village volunteers, strengthening of health facilities, laboratory confirmation of cases, standardised recording and reporting systems, and monitoring and evaluation of control activities.
I hope that the noble Lord the Minister will agree with me that research remains fundamental to this vital work. Two years on from the London declaration, it is important to remind ourselves that medicines alone will not eradicate the diseases of poverty.
Lord Trees (CB)
My Lords, it is my pleasure to join others in thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, for initiating this important debate. The control of NTDs is a challenge, the success of tackling which has been to some extent quite remarkable to date. To make it a total success story, it is critical that the international community maintains the momentum of the London declaration of 2012 to achieve the goals of the WHO NTD 2012 road map on implementation for the control, elimination and in some cases eradication of NTDs between 2015 and 2020.
Most of the NTDs are parasitic or bacterial diseases characterised, as has been said, by high morbidity and chronicity, which affect some 1.4 billion people in the world. These are severely debilitating and, in some cases, disfiguring diseases, which have profound social, cultural and economic effects. They contribute to poverty and poverty contributes to their causes in a potentially permanent cycle of poverty. This restrains economic development, social justice, equality and female emancipation, as females and children are particularly at risk. The targeting of these diseases is therefore an important contribution for the attainment of the millennium development goals and any such targets to be set thereafter.
Historically, these have been relatively neglected diseases, although, as a number of noble Lords have commented, not by the very strong UK scientific community working in this area. Indeed, we can take pride in the efforts of British scientists such as Professor David Molyneux at Liverpool, Professor Peter Holmes in Glasgow—he is chairman of the NTD committee of WHO—and many others. We have heard about the contributions from Dundee, Imperial and others. We can take great pride in the contribution of those British scientists to ensuring that these diseases are getting adequate research attention. Critically, the WHO and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, among other NGOs, are now taking these diseases seriously.
The other major factor, which has not had a great deal of attention in this debate so far but is a major contribution to the control of these diseases, is the generous donation of drugs worth between $2 billion and $3 billion a year by a number of pharmaceutical companies. In spite of this remarkable commercial philanthropy, there is still a funding gap, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, has commented, not only in ensuring adequate surveillance, monitoring and delivery of the drugs that we have, but also in research to improve therapies and to provide, in some cases, vaccines. British institutions have a major role to play in this.
Only 0.6% of overseas development assistance for health is devoted to NTDs. The British Government have set an excellent example, along with the US Government and NGOs, but I join the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, in urging the Government to exert all the pressure that they can on other richer countries, particularly in the EU, to ensure that they contribute more to this endeavour.
If ever there was a case of enlightened self-interest, this is it. Healthier, wealthier populations can feed themselves better, relieving the pressure on global food supplies; they are more stable, relieving the pressure on migration; and, ultimately, they will be purchasers of the products and services that richer countries can provide. Tackling the NTDs gives a big bang for one’s buck. Huge benefits accrue from relatively modest investment. Not only does it make economic sense, but it satisfies our obligations to relieve poverty, create opportunity and achieve fairness and social justice for all in our world.
Lord Crisp (CB)
My Lords, I, too, congratulate my noble friend Lady Hayman on her eloquent speech and for keeping this issue so well highlighted. There has been good progress but there is much more to do. I also congratulate the Government on taking such a strong lead on this. In doing so, I of course encourage them to continue to do so in the future.
I declare an interest as chair of trustees of Sightsavers, which deals with two of the major blinding diseases. Trachoma was endemic in London 400 years ago—so it can be eliminated—and I am delighted that DfID has supported Sightsavers to lead a collaboration of partners who are mapping trachoma worldwide. This will enable us to understand exactly what the level of trachoma is in every community and how we can go about eliminating it. It is a very important programme. DfID has also been supporting us in tackling trachoma in Nigeria in particular, with another project with the Government there. I am also delighted that the Diamond Jubilee Trust has chosen trachoma to be its major target for the funding that has been raised, with the intention of eliminating trachoma from five countries in the Commonwealth.
The other great disease we deal with is onchocerciasis, or river blindness. This reminds me of the wonderful co-operation there is in the world of neglected tropical diseases. It is public-private, as we have heard, and, in the case of onchocerciasis, Merck committed itself 25 years ago to give the drug ivermectin free for as long as it takes to eliminate the disease around the world. There is co-operation between countries and co-operation between academic departments and services, which several noble Lords have highlighted. It is worth remembering that there are people who have been quietly working away for 25 to 30 years on those diseases before they had a high public profile, and it is great to see them now getting some recognition for that tremendous work over those many years.
The other group worth mentioning is the communities themselves in Africa. The African Programme for Onchocerciasis Control, which is one of our partners at Sightsavers, has 100,000 community distributors of drugs, one in each village, who, once a year, deliver the drugs to everyone in the village in an attempt to eliminate the disease. That is an excellent example of community self-help, but it also allows them to distribute drugs for other diseases. A point of co-operation in this field is the way that we in Sightsavers, while focusing on blindness, also distribute drugs through that network for lymphatic filariasis and other things.
Your Lordships will gather that I am proud of what Sightsavers does, but I am also proud as a British citizen of what the UK is doing. That seems to me to be real solidarity between some of the richest people in the world and some of the poorest. Of course, there is more to do. As my noble friend Lord Alton said, the reason why it is so urgent is that, largely, we know what to do. We need money and the priority to do it.
Let me finish on three final points. The first, as other noble Lords have said, is that this programme of dealing with neglected tropical diseases needs to integrate with the wider development push, so that it is not just dealing with those diseases but linking it in with water cleanliness and everything else.
The second point, which has not been raised, is that although this is a fight to eliminate those diseases, many people are disabled by them. On the wider issue of disability, there are about 1 billion people disabled in the world, and 80% live in developing countries. They have not been systematically included in international aid programmes, and we ask DfID to develop a strategic approach to disability-inclusive development to sit alongside the valuable work on preventing disability. I ask the Minister to respond on that point; I would very happy to receive a letter. I hope that he can, because that is very important and would be another example of the UK’s leading the way internationally on development by having disability-inclusive development in all its aspects.
My final point is to add my voice to those continuing to press for inclusion of neglected tropical diseases in the MDG successor framework.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, I must admit that the discipline of three minutes had enabled me to eliminate all the Latin names for neglected tropical diseases and, in the extra minute I have, I do not intend to put them back.
I too thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, for initiating today's debate. Although neglected tropical diseases are the most common infections among the world’s poorest communities, they still receive little public attention. I am also pleased that the noble Baroness has made this debate a regular event since the 2012 global health summit, which set out a way forward to achieve a world free of NTDs.
As we have heard in the debate, NTDs disproportionately affect the world's poorest people and are a serious impediment to economic development in developing nations. Thanks to the noble Baroness, I recently met the special envoys for the Global Network for Neglected Tropical Diseases. I too, like the noble Lord, Lord Alton, would like to quote the former President of Ghana, John Kufuor, who I met. I will repeat the quote in full:
“There is no silver bullet remedy to helping a country break the cycle of poverty, but investing in the health of its population offers one of the best options for unlocking economic potential. With full support both from national governments and from the global community, we can … put an end to NTDs on the African continent”—
and beyond.
Treating NTDs is extremely cost-effective, as my noble friend Lord Stone and the noble Lord, Lord Trees, highlighted, through successful public-private partnerships. Pharmaceutical companies donate nearly all the drugs necessary for counteracting the seven most common NTDs. Fifty US cents per person per year can treat and protect against NTDs, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, said, and in turn avert malnutrition, improve education outcomes, improve maternal and child health, reduce new cases of HIV, and set the stage for sustainable economic development.
Despite the momentum since the 2012 summit, and as we have heard, long-term elimination goals cannot be reached without addressing primary risk factors for NTDs, such as the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, highlighted, having access to clean water and basic sanitation, vector control and stronger health systems in endemic areas. These issues will need to be addressed beyond the WHO 2020 goals and as part of the post-2015 development framework. Will the Minister update us on the Government’s overall strategy to help control or eliminate the seven major neglected tropical diseases? As the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, said, it is welcome that the high-level panel included NTDs in the healthy living section, but can the Minister tell us what steps the Government will take to ensure that other countries will support us to include specific targets and indicators for NTDs in the final post-2015 framework?
Lord Bates (Con)
My Lords, I am pleased to have the opportunity to respond to this debate, which has been fascinating, and led so movingly and passionately by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, who comes to this area with great expertise as a trustee in the Sabin Vaccine Institute and the Global Network for Neglected Tropical Diseases. Putting this on the map annually is a way of ensuring that it keeps the heels of Her Majesty’s Government and others to the fire. It ensures that progress continues to be made.
The noble Baroness welcomed me to her world, which is a fascinating one. She outlined some of the creatures that inhabited it. I was going to make a quick aside about being no stranger to this world because it sounded rather familiar as a member of the Government Whips Office, but it would be inappropriate to do so. I am pleased to answer the question because every year neglected tropical diseases adversely affect the lives of more than a billion people, causing disability, disfigurement, stigma and an estimated half a million deaths, mainly in the poorest countries. By helping countries to tackle them we alleviate unnecessary suffering and help to reduce poverty. That point was made by many noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Collins and Lord Alton, who quoted the former President of Ghana, John Kufuor, in talking about the silver bullet and the bang for the buck, which I think the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, mentioned, in terms of public health and its effect on alleviating poverty.
The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked me to update your Lordships on progress made since the London declaration. Since that meeting the UK has launched a trachoma programme that completes the mapping of the disease. The noble Lord, Lord Crisp, referred to that in his association with Sightsavers. It is an incredible programme that will be immensely beneficial as part of the general research effort. We are delighted to be part of it. New programmes will be developed to tackle NTDs in an integrated fashion in Nigeria and South Sudan. I will come back to the point about South Sudan, which the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, referred to, later in my remarks. We have helped World Health Organisation to strengthen its NTD capacity, and approved a programme to help deal with kala azar in south Asia and east Africa, which I am sure that my noble friend Lord Sheikh will be pleased to note given the personal experiences that he brought to the debate.
We have maintained UK support for the Carter Center’s Guinea worm eradication programme, and I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Chidgey for raising that example. As someone who was clearly coming to this from a non-expert position, to be frank, it was heartening to hear that a disease that in 1986 had 3.5 million people suffering with Guinea worm in 20 countries could be reduced to 154 in four countries, through concerted effort and focus and investment in research. Within a lifetime, that is a remarkable case study. He was also absolutely right to remind us that we cannot be complacent, because of the example of TB, which he highlighted.
The noble Lord, Lord Stone, spoke about support on river blindness and bilharzia. We have extended our support for that, including the elephantiasis programme. We have invested in more research on how best to deliver the NTD programme in a cost-effective and sustainable way. The point about research, raised effectively by the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, was important. I will come back to that if I can, because research is at the heart of this. It was heartening to have so many contributions, including those from the noble Lords, Lord Patel, Lord Alton and Lord Crisp, referring to the excellence in research. Those were the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick: the UK is a hub of research excellence. The noble Lord, Lord Stone, spoke about exciting initiatives with Imperial College combining with the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine to provide further research in that area. I would be delighted to arrange a meeting with the appropriate Ministers and officials in the Department for International Development to see how we can support that work going forward.
There are also product development partnerships, including the Foundation for Innovative New Diagnostics and the Drugs for Neglected Diseases initiative—FIND and DNDi—which we are supporting. We also support operational research through a number of channels, including our existing commitments to the World Health Organisation’s tropical disease research programme and wider health-related research programme consortia.
Underpinning the results lies a collaborative network. We continue to work closely with donor colleagues, particularly the US Agency for International Development, the World Bank, the World Health Organisation and, of course, the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, to improve the way in which we tackle these diseases. National Governments are key partners too, particularly in the delivery of mass drug administration through schools and communities. An important point was made on that by, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, about this being about not just national Governments—that because these are diseases of the rural poor we should have people down at a village level engaged in tackling them.
Several of your Lordships mentioned the need for better integration between different NTD initiatives, as well as closer working with other disease programmes and with sectors such as water and sanitation, which are all part of the same issue. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, mentioned that, and the noble Lords, Lord Alton and Lord Crisp, and of course the noble Lord, Lord Collins, all referred to the vital way at which we should get better at integrating how we tackle these diseases—not just with medicines, but with water, sanitation and research. These challenges would be much tougher without the major contribution that the pharmaceutical industry makes through sustained and highly effective drug donation programmes. Combining their donations and our support to improve delivery is at the heart of the public and private sector. Several noble Lords referred specifically to the work of Merck in that capacity, and the great generosity that it has shown.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, asked for an update on the closure of AstraZeneca, and the noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, also referred to that. It has announced that it is closing a major factory in India that was producing NTD medicines. Her Majesty’s Government believe that the pharmaceutical industry has an important contribution to make in enhancing access for the poor to essential medicines. The AstraZeneca decision appears to be part of a wider restructuring programme. Other pharmaceutical companies remain active in this precise area, including Merck, Johnson & Johnson and GlaxoSmithKline, and they donate free drugs to certain neglected diseases. The French drug maker Sanofi is also working on a vaccine for dengue fever. That is part of the update there.
The noble Lord, Lord Crisp, asked me to consider what DfID could be doing for those living with disabilities. More than 1 billion people, 15% of the global population, live with disability. Many of the programmes tackling NTDs prevent disability, so as well as prevention DfID is also pressing for disability to be included in the post-2015 framework under the principle, outlined in the high-level panel report, of “no one left behind”. That is a very important principle that I hope offers some reassurance to the noble Lord, who rightly raises those concerns.
In 2012 we substantially increased our commitment in terms of donations. Several noble Lords referred to the amount of funding that goes into this area and the funding gap that is still there. We acknowledge that, but it is worth putting on record that if you look back to 2008 you see that the average budget going into NTDs from the UK Government for research, medicines and so on was about £1 million. As a result of the London declaration conference that went up to £10 million per annum, and now it stands on average at about £40 million per annum.
The noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Alton, spoke about how it was important to encourage other countries to step up to the plate and make their contributions in this area. Her Majesty’s Government are continuing to do that. It is also the place of international organisations to do that much more effectively, such as the World Health Organisation.
I turn to the millennium development goals. This of course brings us right back, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman commented, not to repeating the same Motion before your Lordships’ House as last year but, this year, emphasising the importance of the millennium development goals. The high-level panel, which was co-chaired by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, included in its recommendations that NTDs should not just be listed as “other diseases” under MDG 6, as they are in the present MDGs, but actually ought to be specified and listed—at least seven of them, and perhaps 10. That was the recommendation that it made, which her Majesty’s Government absolutely support. That programme is now under review. There are some 30 groups that the UN Secretary-General has established to take forward the recommendations by the high-level panel, and they will be put before the General Assembly when it meets in September. The period of time between now and September to re-emphasise the importance of having those diseases specified is therefore very important.
This has been a very important debate in raising this issue in a timely and effective way. Again, I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, for mentioning it. The words of the Secretary-General of the United Nations, Ban Ki-moon, when he said that:
“Poverty reduction and the elimination of NTDs go hand-in-hand”,
was quite precise and to the point. That is why Her Majesty’s Government are supporting that, not only with our efforts behind the millennium development goals but with the money that we are putting into research and medicines.
Pre-emption of Parliament: Constitution Committee Report
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Jay of Paddington
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to the report of the Constitution Committee on the pre-emption of Parliament (13th Report, Session 2012-13, HL Paper 165).
Baroness Jay of Paddington (Lab)
My Lords, I am pleased to have this opportunity to debate the Constitution Committee’s report on the pre-emption of Parliament. As your Lordships are aware, I had the privilege of chairing the committee, and the report follows a short inquiry which we undertook last year. As always, I am grateful to the witnesses who appeared, to our expert advisers, to our officials and to the members of the committee for their invaluable help in producing the report.
At first sight, it may appear somewhat arcane as a subject even for the Constitution Committee but in fact parliamentary pre-emption concerns the central constitutional principle that, in the United Kingdom, Parliament makes the laws and Governments implement them. To put it simply, Ministers may propose changes to matters of policy which involve changes to organisations or institutions—or, indeed, to have full-scale reform and introduce new structures—but they can do so only once Parliament has passed the necessary legislation. That principle is obviously especially important when the proposed policy requires the expenditure of large amounts of public money.
As your Lordships will be aware, however, Governments sometimes jump the gun—changes are begun and money is spent before the relevant Bill has passed through all the stages of Parliament. The argument for doing that is usually that it improves public administration and cost effectiveness, but we have called that practice the pre-emption of Parliament.
I am particularly glad that my noble friend Lord Beecham is speaking for the Opposition today, as he has been one of several Members of the House to draw the Constitution Committee’s attention to this matter. He was particularly concerned about the passage of the Public Bodies Act 2011. At that time, many organisations—notably, the Youth Justice Board—were initially told that they would be abolished. After the passage of the Bill, and particularly amendments made in this House, they were reprieved—but not, of course, before there had been considerable disruption and anxiety within the organisation. A similar issue—sadly, with a different result—arose during the House of Lords proceedings on the Health and Social Care Act 2012. The noble Lord, Lord Owen, who regrets that he is unable to be here today, sought to challenge the Government for beginning widespread reorganisation of the NHS, which affected many services, before the Bill had passed, but in that instance was told that it was too late to stop the changes.
The Constitution Committee decided that there were sufficient recent examples to provide the basis for a focused inquiry to enable us to take evidence on the origins of and authority for pre-emption and how it is understood in government. It was a surprisingly fascinating exercise. We uncovered historical precedents and significant conventions which had been hidden in layers of obscurity. We discovered government action often depending on agreements drawn up more than 80 years ago, or on historical advice from individual lawyers which had become enshrined as Whitehall “doctrine”.
I must emphasise that we did not find evidence of deliberate constitutional malpractice or a widespread determination to bypass parliamentary process. Rather, we concluded that the rules governing pre-emption are both complex and unclear and that certain so-called conventions and understandings are anachronistic and unfit for the political realities of the 21st century.
There are two separate strands to our report, the first covering the governance controls on pre-emptive activity and expenditure, and I shall address those in my remarks. The second is the very important legal basis for pre-emption, which my noble friend Lord Hart, who is a fellow committee member, will speak to.
A central aspect to our inquiry was the role played by the Treasury in authorising government expenditure before legislation receives Royal Assent. The foundation of this authority is concordat drawn up as long ago as 1932 between the Treasury and the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee, which states that the authority for government expenditure should normally derive from a specific Act of Parliament rather than from any general authority of the annual Appropriation Act. In other words, in the interests of constitutional propriety Parliament must specifically approve expenditure, indicating that it should not normally be incurred before Parliament has approved the expenditure through an Act.
The problems that can arise are well illustrated by the matter that I have already mentioned—the passage of the Health and Social Care Act, when the noble Lord, Lord Owen, among others, raised the question of pre-emptive expenditure and was told that the scale of the expenditure undertaken on NHS reorganisation before the Bill had passed made it practically impossible for the Bill to be abandoned. This effectively meant that Parliament was being told that it could not refuse to pass the legislation. The practical consequences for the NHS, we were told, would have been overwhelming, so the constitutional principle was apparently abandoned.
The Treasury publishes guidance for the Ministers and their departments on pre-emptive public expenditure; this is called Managing Public Money. The guidance states that to incur such expenditure there must be a genuine, urgent need for it and it must be in the public interests. The relevant Bill must have passed Second Reading in the House of Commons and the planned legislation must be certain to become law in the near future. In evidence to us, Mrs Paula Diggle, Treasury officer of accounts and a very senior official, said that the requirements were interpreted by the Treasury as encapsulating parliamentary control over pre-emptive expenditure. She said that the Treasury was the “guardian of Parliament” and ensured that departments did not spend money before appropriate approval had been given. In its written evidence, the Treasury described this as an “ancient convention”. However, the committee concluded that, while the Treasury’s role is important within government, Parliament’s interests over pre-emptive expenditure should primarily be guarded by Parliament itself. Given this, we did not think that it was appropriate to describe the Treasury’s role as a convention in the constitutional sense.
We felt that the same was true for the general understandings about public expenditure being legitimate after a Commons Second Reading had been passed. We found no evidence that Parliament has ever endorsed this practice and, therefore, we felt that it should not be called a constitutional convention.
More significantly, we concluded that there is really no basis for assuming that pre-emptive spending can be justified after Second Reading in the Commons. Of course, a successful Second Reading in another place is usually an indicator that a Bill will become law. However, as your Lordships will be aware, particularly from some recent experiences, a Bill may well still be defeated or significantly amended at a later stage. The Second Reading practice is obviously complicated when a Bill starts in the Lords. We therefore decided that the Second Reading really carries no independent constitutional force.
In our final section, on the political oversight and authority for pre-emption, we concluded that Parliament should be much better informed than it is at present about the details of pre-emptive activity in advance. At the moment, there is no standard procedure and we recommend that a consistent method of explanation and information should be developed, perhaps by way of an Oral Statement during a Bill’s passage or through statements in documents accompanying a Bill. We further recommend that the Government should at the end of each Session produce a Written Statement summarising the pre-emptive activity undertaken across all departments and including the amount spent and the powers under which the Ministers acted. I am grateful that the Government have accepted those recommendations in their written response to us.
Overall, we felt that it would be useful and constitutionally important that the principles and practices covering pre-emption should be consolidated into one authoritative statement, to be included in the next edition of the Cabinet Manual. In their response the Government agreed to revise the relevant guidance in the Treasury document Managing Public Money and to refer to it in the Cabinet Manual.
I emphasise that the committee’s central concern was that at present the rules and understandings used by Ministers are opaque and, in places, inappropriately ancient. This militates against both good public administration and good constitutional practice, even when that constitution is unwritten.
I am grateful to the Government for their written reply to our report and for accepting some of our recommendations. Although their response is positive in tone, I think it is fair to describe some of the replies to our points as somewhat terse. Perhaps the Minister could be slightly more expansive today.
I return to the fundamental point in our report: where pre-emptive activity or expenditure is such that it threatens effective parliamentary scrutiny, it should not be undertaken. It is for Parliament, not the Executive, to decide whether and when to change the law. I look forward to the debate and to the Minister’s reply.
Lord Norton of Louth (Con)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Jay of Paddington, on initiating this debate and the Constitution Committee on producing this timely and important report. In the time available, I wish to make two points. The first is one of clarification. For me, the key quotation in the report is that of Sir Stephen Sedley at paragraph 68, as distinguishing,
“between acting in certain ways in case draft legislation becomes law, and acting as if it were already law. The latter is prohibited in general terms; the former is not”.
That is a clear distinction, but it is one somewhat masked by the title of the report. The report states in paragraph 2:
“During this inquiry we have described Government action in anticipation of Parliament passing a bill as the ‘pre-emption of Parliament’”.
For me, “pre-emption” constitutes the second of Sir Stephen Sedley’s categories. It does not encompass both. There is a difference between anticipatory action and pre-emptive action. The first, in some circumstances, may be acceptable. The second is not.
There are no grounds for pre-empting Parliament’s capacity to enact primary legislation. If there is some urgency, it is in the gift of Government to seek all-party agreement to a Bill being passed in the course of 24 or 48 hours. There are various instances where that has occurred. Any claim for pre-emption in the event of a national emergency has in large measure been eliminated by the Civil Contingencies Act.
My second point is on the other aspect, that of anticipatory action. The committee recognises that waiting for a Bill to pass may impose such strict restraint on the Executive as to be inefficient or expensive. This, it says, is widely recognised. The report proceeds on the basis of the acceptance that there is a case for such anticipatory action. It does not seek to challenge it; it is more concerned with the mechanisms by which it is reported and scrutinised.
I fear that I am going to take a more sceptical view. We really need to test the case rather than take it as given. I do not challenge the claim that preparatory work may need to be undertaken by the Government before a law comes into effect. However, we already have a mechanism for that, one that ensures parliamentary approval before action is taken. I refer to commencement orders. Through their use, one does not have to anticipate parliamentary approval. Parliament has already considered the measure and the Minister is acting on the basis of statutory authority in deciding when to bring the provisions into effect. I initiated a debate in November last year on such orders and, in replying to the debate, my noble friend Lord Gardiner of Kimble confirmed that the Government had no plans to change the use of commencement orders.
Given the use of such orders, then, what therefore is the case for anticipatory action by Government? The report cites two activities that could qualify but I am not persuaded by either example. Hiring a project team is something that should await enactment and is the sort of thing that can be undertaken before a provision is commenced. One could sound out the potential members in advance, but that is a different matter, entailing no commitment and no expense. As for scoping inquiries, I am not clear why they would be undertaken after a Bill has been introduced. I would be rather worried if a measure had been drafted before a scoping inquiry was undertaken.
I therefore invite the Minister to explain the case for anticipatory action in the context of my point about commencement orders. It is not sufficient to say that there is a case for taking anticipatory action if that action can be taken following Parliament’s approval of the measure and before the relevant provision is commenced. We need to be far more rigorous in making sure that anticipatory action is undertaken only in truly exceptional circumstances—I look forward to hearing what they are—and that the Government, in reporting these to the House, explain why the action cannot be taken after Royal Assent but can be before the relevant provision is commenced. That at the very least will impose a useful discipline and, I trust, a deterrent.
I very much welcome the committee’s report, shedding light as it does on a largely neglected but important topic. I welcome the Government’s response, but we need to build on what is before us in order to ensure that Parliament is not taken for granted.
Baroness Andrews (Lab)
My Lords, I too congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, on securing the debate and the committee on its choice of subject, for many of the reasons raised by the noble Lord, Lord Norton. The report reveals government practices that are indeed obscure. They may be occasional, but if one can determine a pattern then that is very helpful to the House. They are governed by an obscure and complex set of protocols, and when they are described as a convention that sets alarm bells ringing in this House. I found the evidence fascinating and, to borrow the noble Baroness’s term, certainly arcane.
I have two reasons for contributing today. First, I completely agree with the witness who said that this development belonged to the,
“longstanding narrative detailing the sidelining of Parliament by the executive and the perceived decline of Parliament as an institution”.
I take that point. Many years ago I was a clerk in the House of Commons, and from that position I have watched the erosion of parliamentary control, with the distinguished exception of the recent Select Committee system, and it is of profound concern to me. Secondly, at the time when the Public Bodies Bill was passed, I was the chair of English Heritage and therefore I declare an interest in retrospect.
The committee spent a lot of time trying to get to the bottom of the Ram doctrine and dealing with the Treasury assumption of guardianship of Parliament, which is a very counterintuitive concept. The question of how far the Government can go, or how much it can it get away with—I take the noble Baroness’s point that there is nothing very deliberate or malign about this, but there is certainly a behaviour—was asked and answered in many different ways in this report.
Like the noble Lord, Lord Norton, I found that Sir Stephen Sedley made a particularly important clarification between the legitimacy of anticipatory acts and the abuse of power explicit in presumptuous acts. I welcome the distinction that the noble Lord made regarding commencement orders because that gives us an important point to think about.
I read the conclusions of the report with pleasure, particularly that,
“restraint … should apply to all pre-emptive actions, not just those involving expenditure under the new services rules”.
My concern, however, was rather specific. Having been assiduous and read the written evidence, I came across the Treasury’s own written memorandum and—in the Treasury’s own words—the demanding conditions to justify pre-emption that must be met in every respect. Frankly, it is not clear to me how the Public Bodies Act and the Health and Social Care Act ever passed those tests at all. The memorandum describes how the rules apply in practice:
“Proposals to anticipate Royal Assent are always declined where … the bill in question is sufficiently controversial that its passage cannot be assured”.
It goes on to say in detail in paragraph 16:
“There must be little doubt that the legislation will pass substantially unchanged, and in the near future”.
I do not think that there have ever been two Bills presented to this House that fell more resoundingly into this category than the Bills I have mentioned. By no stretch of the imagination could they not have been called controversial. The assumption raises questions: on what basis did the Government make that assumption? Where does consultation fit into this?
As we know, both Bills were notorious because of the lack of consultation. If I may make a personal reference, English Heritage was not threatened with dismantling before Second Reading but we were on death row with all the others, with a deeply uncertain future ahead of us. The first that the public bodies attached to the DCMS knew about the Bill—and there are many, because it is essentially a devolved department—was when we were summoned by the Secretary of State and told about it, and the bare bones were set out. I asked immediately whether there would be consultation, to which the Secretary of State, who was Jeremy Hunt at the time, said, “No”. I said, “Well, how are we going to know?” and he said, “You will be listed in a schedule to the Bill”. That was the extent of consultation.
Likewise, much of the burden of the argument against the NHS Bill was that it controverted a manifesto commitment not to introduce major change—therefore, by definition, there could have been no consultation. The evidence of the Youth Justice Board underlined this point. It said that if consultation had taken place before a decision was finally made, it was just possible that the Government might have changed their mind, so heavy was the burden of contradiction in the evidence. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, made the same point in his evidence.
The other condition that was identified by the Treasury that was also unmet was that:
“The action proposed must be reversible or retain some use if not confirmed, ie no potentially nugatory commitment of any significance can be entered into”.
I cannot see how that is fulfilled by the Public Bodies Act in relation to the RDAs, for example—and again I cite the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. The Treasury answered that by saying that the public bodies legislation contained wider flexibilities, but it was not so wide that it would have been justified in demolishing without replacement the fundamental character of those bodies. Neither was it true of the NHS Act—and my noble friend has made that point. The argument constantly used against the Opposition was that we were actually making it worse by pursuing opposition that would only add to the chaos of what was already happening on the ground in the NHS. There is a huge leap of logic here, because the argument in the Treasury response was that it enabled the Department of Health to put in place the transition programme, but that programme was necessary only because the Government had sprung a major reform on the NHS that went far beyond its duty of promoting a comprehensive health service. I hope that the Minister will feel able to comment on the memorandum and on how it was applied in those cases.
My point is to strengthen the case, which has already been made in the report, that these two Bills expose the issue raised by pre-emption and the explanations offered for that. The point about the difference between anticipation and presumption fits into that argument. I thought that the summary of conclusions was appropriate and precise, and I agree with it—and I think that the Committee has won some ground from the Treasury over language and process. But, my word, this House needs to be vigilant in future about the operation of this.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart (LD)
My Lords, I should like to congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, and the committee on producing what I believe to be a notable constitutional report. The response of the Government seems to have recognised its significance although, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, said, it was somewhat terse. What is required is a clear statement from the Government not just about pre-emptive public expenditure but about pre-emptive action that bypasses Parliament. They have indicated that they will set out their pre-emptive public expenditure rules in their text, Managing Public Money, and refer to it in the Cabinet Manual, but that does not go quite far enough. The Public Bodies Act has been mentioned several times in the course of this short debate, and I agree with all the points that have been made about that.
It is exceedingly important that Parliament and the Executive are open with each other and that they come together when there is a need for pre-emptive action, make that need explicit and clear and seek to justify it. There is a good deal of uncertainty in the law about the Crown’s common-law powers.
It is fair to argue that if we had to have the Executive enabled by legislation to do absolutely everything, that would impose a huge burden on Parliament and simply not make sense, but with government as immensely powerful as it now is, we have to have a better dialogue. That is what I am so grateful to the committee for having opened up. I believe that we will see real progress and that the power of Parliament to comment on executive action will be enormously enhanced by the recognition of that problem.
Lord Lexden (Con)
My Lords, my little contribution to this debate is almost entirely in an historical vein, but I have one or two preliminary observations. For the best part of two years, I have had the good fortune to be a member of the Constitution Committee. I am extremely grateful to my chairman, the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, and all my colleagues. I am also very conscious of the large debt that is owed to the committee staff, its clerk, policy analyst, administrative assistant and legal advisers. They all serve us quite superbly.
During this inquiry, we learnt about the strict enforcement of unchanging rules laid down long ago under which the Treasury will authorise spending before a Bill becomes law. For me as a historian, the most memorable aspect of that absorbing inquiry was the touching faith in the internal validity and force of the rules displayed in the Treasury’s evidence to us on the grounds of their longevity. The Treasury’s written note to us in January 2013 referred to,
“an ancient convention that the Treasury should strive to look after Parliament’s interest in Whitehall”.
The note went on to refer to the Ram doctrine, adumbrated in November 1945, with which we became extremely familiar during the course of our inquiry as the reformulation in more modern form of “an ancient convention”.
“Ancient” is of course a relative term, but I was struck by the extent to which, in the Treasury’s view, it covers all but the most recent times and provides an apparent justification for a lack of precise answers to historical questions. In the committee’s oral evidence session with Treasury representatives, which took place exactly a year ago on 6 February 2013, it emerged that one of the conventions on which the Treasury has been relying,
“dates back a long way. We have traced something that may be of help. It is from a fat book that is very ancient and yellow, and calls itself the Public Accounts Committee Epitome of Reports”.
The date of that very ancient yellow work? 1884, the year that Gladstone passed the third Reform Act and, as it happened, my grandfather was born. Neither Gladstone’s feet nor my grandfather’s would normally be thought of as having walked in ancient times.
I was left feeling very puzzled by all that. Questions about the origins of ancient conventions that go back no further than the 19th century ought surely to be taken straight to the Treasury’s archives for full, detailed answers. Gladstone, perhaps the greatest of all 19th-century Chancellors, would have insisted on proper record-keeping. It is highly likely that the Treasury’s self-appointed role as the guardian of “Parliament interest in Whitehall” stems from Gladstone’s years as Chancellor in the 1850s and the 1860s—years when, in his own words, he gloried in the name of skinflint, saving the nation’s candle ends. By establishing the Treasury’s firm control over Westminster’s costs at this time he brought down public spending in this country as a proportion of GNP from 10% to 6.4%. The people’s William did not believe in spending the people’s money to create public services for the people.
This rather lengthy historical detour leads to an obvious request of my noble friend the Minister. Could he please check on the state of the Treasury’s archives and, assuming that no misfortune has befallen it, consider issuing a departmental directive that it should be consulted to provide answers to historical points of the kind that were not insignificant in the committee’s inquiry into the pre-emption of Parliament? What emerged clearly from the committee’s consideration of the historical background to the Treasury’s central role since the 19th century is that working habits and practices, which have come to be venerated and hallowed on the grounds of their ancient character have, over the years, mutated into conventions. The committee’s report called for redefinition. It states:
“We accept that the Treasury was not seeking to elevate its internal practices to the status of constitutional conventions. However, clarity in this area is important. We recommend that the Treasury's practices should not be described as ‘conventions’”.
In their very succinct reply to the report the Government stated that they would
“no longer use the term convention to describe these matters”.
That is very satisfactory and other aspects of the Government’s response are also welcomed by us. Not one of the committee’s recommendations has been rejected, although, as has already been pointed out, the acceptance of some was extremely terse. There are reasons for regarding the Government’s response as resembling a heartening outcome for the members of the committee and its excellent staff.
Lord Hart of Chilton (Lab)
My Lords, I am also a member of your Lordships’ Select Committee on the Constitution, whose report on the pre-emption of Parliament we are debating today. I thank my noble friend Lady Jay for instigating this debate. She has described the ambit of the report and its principal themes.
I simply wish to add a few words on chapter 3 concerning the legal basis of pre-emption in the context of the Crown’s common-law powers, which have been summarised as the power to do things that are ancillary or incidental to the ordinary business of central government. As we shall see, some have argued that the powers go wider than that. The statement of the ministerial powers that has been most frequently relied on by the Government is to be found in a memorandum drafted by Sir Granville Ram—of whom we have already heard from the noble Lord, Lord Lexden—who was then the First Parliamentary Counsel in 1945. However, it was not published until 2003, following a series of Questions by the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill.
So, who was Sir Granville Ram? The Dictionary of National Biography states that he was,
“a shortish, bespectacled man with a suspicion of a paunch and a rather misleading air of Pickwickian benevolence … was perhaps less scholarly, and certainly more rumbustious than the typical parliamentary counsel. He usually relied on his assistants to produce the first draft of a bill, before he pulled their work to pieces and comprehensively recast it. His pride in his own legal prose was such that he would repeatedly smother texts with stylistic alterations, some of them trivial. Subordinates, who favoured more functional wording, called him the Maestro behind his back”.
My professional life has often been pre-empted by the Granville Rams of this world, and the memorandum states that a Minister of the Crown is unlike a statutory body, which is a creature of statute and has no powers, except those conferred on it. In contrast, a Minister is not a creature of statute and may, as an agent of the Crown, exercise any powers which the Crown can exercise except those precluded by statute. The memorandum, of course, is an opinion prepared by counsel for his client—in this case, the Government. As such it has no force in law. Furthermore, the majority of our witnesses agreed that, whatever may have been the position in 1945, the memorandum is not an accurate reflection of the common-law powers today. Today, in addition to statutory restraints, Ministers’ ability to exercise common-law powers is constrained by public law, by limitations on government action enforced by judicial review, by human rights law, by the pre-existing rights and significant interests of private persons, and by rules on financial propriety set out in the 1932 concordat and the Treasury guide Managing Public Money.
More troubling to the committee was the statement by the Treasury that there existed a doctrine, derived from the Ram memorandum, enshrined in the proposition that “Ministers can do anything a natural person can do”, which is echoed in the current Cabinet Manual. This was questioned by several of our witnesses, including Sir Stephen Sedley, a retired Lord Justice of Appeal, and Sir Jeffrey Jowell, a distinguished academic. The Attorney-General believed it to be an inaccurate summary because the powers were now constrained by public law, propriety, the rule of law and human rights. Our view, therefore, was that the so-called Ram doctrine was unhelpful, inaccurate and should no longer be used.
We found there to be some disagreement as to the scope of the Crown’s common-law powers. Some, such as the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, said:
“If the Crown has common law as well as statutory or prerogative powers then I agree they are ancillary only and extend to such matters as entering into contracts, paying rents or salaries and conveying property. They do not extend … to enable the Government to pre-empt Parliament’s legislative process, and to contend otherwise would be contrary to the rule of law”.
Others, such as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, and the Attorney-General, thought that the powers went beyond ancillary powers and were more extensive. Two decisions in the Court of Appeal in 2000 and 2008, referred to in our report, did not satisfactorily resolve the position because there were conflicting obiter dicta from Lord Justice Richards and Lord Justice Carnwath, as he then was.
The true extent of the common-law power of the Crown can be definitively determined only by the courts. Nevertheless, we concluded that although the Crown has common-law powers and is therefore qualitatively different from a statutory body such as local authorities, those powers are constrained and circumscribed by the principles that I have mentioned and are referred to in our report. Accordingly, we recommended that where government publications such as the Cabinet Manual refer to the Crown’s common-law powers, it is made abundantly clear that those powers are limited by the restraints of public law and constitutional principle.
The Government’s response has been to accept that the advice in the Ram memorandum is necessarily incomplete because it pre-dates important developments in public law as well as the Human Rights Act, and they accept that it cannot have the force of law. However, they go on to say that the principle described in the Ram opinion remains valid and that the Crown has common-law powers which may be exercised subject to overarching legal constraints. Interestingly, the current 2013 edition of Managing Public Money does not refer to the Ram memorandum. So matters are still not completely clear and I would welcome the Minister’s detailed response.
Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, this Government have a record of pressing on with legislation paying scant attention to the views, for example, of the Joint Committee on Human Rights on draft Bills, Select Committees in the Commons designed to provide a measure of pre-legislative scrutiny or, indeed, the outcomes of what are often short periods of consultation. I coined the phrase “pre-legislative implementation”, now supplanted by the term “pre-emption”, in relation to what happened under the then Public Bodies Bill, where, in what was trumpeted as a bonfire of the quangos, the abolition of regional development agencies was proposed. Despite receiving repeated assurances from the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, whom I acquit of any personal culpability, that there would be consultation and that each case would be considered on its merits, the Government pressed ahead as if the Bill had been enacted, and stripped the RDAs of their staff, budgets and assets without any consultation long before Royal Assent.
The Constitution Committee noted, as we have heard, analogous approaches in relation to the Youth Justice Board and the then Health and Social Care Bill, in respect of which the noble Lord, Lord Owen, observed,
“we should not feed the idea that legislation can reach us but we cannot do anything about it because it has already been pre-empted”.—[Official Report, 8/2/12; col. 261.]
Similar considerations arose over the proposed abolition of the Chief Coroner’s Office, which, like the Youth Justice Board, was ultimately saved.
The most worrying and immediate example of pre-emption is currently in process. It concerns the future of a service with a critical impact on public safety and the lives of those for whom it is responsible—namely, the probation service. The Government are bent on privatising 70% of the work of this service without properly piloting how the new system would work. There is huge concern about the risk to the public of outfits like G4S, Serco and other organisations that purport to be able to deliver almost any public service without prior experience. This is particularly acute as offenders move between risk categories. A binary system for probation is clearly unsatisfactory. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and I collaborated in moving amendments to the Offender Rehabilitation Bill, which began its life in this House, without which the matter would never even have been discussed. The amendment requiring any major reorganisation to be approved by Parliament was passed by this House but overturned in the House of Commons. It will no doubt return to us shortly.
The Government, it emerged from the documents, deliberately avoided including their proposals in the Bill precisely because of the opposition that they knew would be engendered. They simply ignored the concerns and pressed on with this massive reorganisation—or should I say fragmentation?—of a service with a demonstrable record of achievement, recognised by a national award. They continue to do so now, even though their timetable has slipped beyond the recklessly adopted target date of, appropriately enough, 1 April, and they do so under the cover of a misrepresentation of which the Lord Chancellor should be ashamed. He makes much of the reoffending rate of prisoners released after serving short sentences as if this were something for which the probation service were responsible whereas, as he must know, the service has no responsibility for those offenders. This is the latest and most egregious example of a Government overreaching themselves and treating Parliament with contempt. If the Government get their way with this issue, they will be signing a blank cheque in their own favour, enabling them to act first and legislate afterwards, if at all.
The Government’s response to the report from the Constitution Committee is surely unsatisfactory. While they accept the committee’s advice in principle, they merely note its conclusion that it should be recognised that Parliament’s interests are primarily guarded by Parliament itself, rather than being assumed by the Treasury. Why did the Government not accept, rather than merely “note”, the committee’s recommendation? Will the Minister now say that they accept the recommendation?
For that matter, why has the noble Lord, Lord Deighton, who is much respected across this House, been given—or perhaps drawn—the short straw of having to reply to this debate as if it were a Treasury matter? It is not. As noble Lords have said, it is a constitutional matter going well beyond the remit of one individual department. Will the Government seek Parliament’s endorsement for the guidance that they propose to issue? That would be one test of the seriousness with which they take this very valuable report.
The Government adheres stubbornly to the advice of the Ram opinion, which emerged shortly after I was born in early 1945—not quite as ancient as those referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, but, I feel, getting on for that. However, the Government take the view that,
“the Crown does have common law powers which may be exercised subject to overarching legal constraints”,
as my noble friend has just pointed out. However, surely the question is not whether the Government can legally fall back on an ancient principle but whether it is right and reasonable to do so.
The Government merely note the committee’s central conclusion—that,
“the principle of restraint in the name of good constitutional practice should apply to all pre-emptive actions, not just those involving expenditure”.
The Government adopt the same stance in relation to the committee’s ringing assertion that:
“Where the pre-emption involved is such that it threatens effective parliamentary scrutiny, it should not be undertaken. It is for Parliament, not the Government, to decide whether to change the law”.
It was a leading Conservative, Viscount Hailsham, who warned of the dangers of an elective dictatorship. It would appear that a Conservative-led Government are ready to ignore that warning whenever it suits them to do so.
The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Deighton) (Con)
I thank all noble Lords for their contributions today and in particular the members of the Select Committee on the Constitution for their extremely thorough report and the airing that it has brought to these very important issues. I have found the discussion that we have just had extremely interesting. I learnt a lot. I am not a lawyer; I had never heard of the Ram doctrine or Sir Greville Ram before I was briefed for this opportunity to take the short straw and respond on behalf of the Government. I am a lot smarter now than I was 45 minutes ago.
For reasons of time, I may not be able to respond to all the individual issues that have been raised but I will try to cover the key aspects of the Government’s response, answer some of the broad concerns raised today and lay out the steps that the Government are taking to address them. I start by stressing that the pre-emption of parliamentary assent is an area that the Government take seriously, and Her Majesty’s Treasury polices it strongly. We were pleased to note, and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, for pointing this out, that the inquiry revealed no widespread use of pre-emption that went against constitutional principles. As the report says, the Treasury does not allow expenditure on new policies until after Second Reading in another place, and then only in very limited circumstances, including there being an urgent public interest to do so. The Treasury has strict criteria to determine whether an area of proposed expenditure is urgent and in the public interest. Although value for money is important, regularity, propriety and Parliament’s wishes are key and fully respected.
Many noble Lords will have seen the written government response. The noble Baroness, Lady Jay, is right that it is terse, but it is positive. I will be a little more expansive, but my experience of watching Ministers being too expansive gives me some warning. Several of the recommendations in the report that have been mentioned have already been taken on board, and I shall run through a few to illustrate this because it is important to look at the changes that we have made. For me, the most critical thing about what the committee’s findings bring to light is the importance of transparency and codification. Those two go together because the codification is part of what allows for the transparency, and of course it is the transparency—the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, referred to the dialogue—that allows us all to determine whether the judgments being made are appropriate, given all the circumstances. So although our response is terse, it accepts the need for that codification and transparency, and everything else follows from that.
To list some of the things that we have done, we accept that Ministers should always make clear when pre-emption is intended—where possible, orally at Second Reading but, failing that, in a Written Ministerial Statement; Written Ministerial Statements are always made before a contingency fund advance is permitted, which, as noble Lords know, is how pre-emption is funded; and the Government will publish an annual summary at the end of the parliamentary Session of when pre-emption has taken place during the period. I can tell the Committee that in the current parliamentary Session there have been three instances where spend was permitted in advance of Royal Assent. Two of those were in advance of the Energy Act that received Royal Asset on 18 December 2013, and one advance relates to the Pension Bill, where Royal Assent is planned for April 2014.
The main guidance to departments on the pre-emption of Parliament—or “new services”, in the Treasury’s parlance—is a publication that has been referred to, called Managing Public Money. I can say from my own 14-month experience in the Treasury that there is no duty or activity that is taken more seriously than the control that the Treasury imposes on individual departments. That is a very strongly exercised function. That publication, as has been referred to, was updated in July 2013 in line with the recommendations in the report. We removed the references to the Second Reading conventions—we have stopped calling things conventions that, as noble Lords have pointed out, actually are not—and, to the relief of many noble Lords here, we have also taken out any reference to the Ram doctrine.
The Cabinet Manual also uses these terms but again, consistent with the report’s recommendations, the Cabinet Office will take those views on board when it next reviews the guidance. The Treasury is also going to issue an update to the detailed annexe on new services in the near future to be clearer about the very limited scope for pre-empting Parliament.
The only specific recommendation that the Government are not intending to act on is the proposal that there should be a Written Ministerial Statement at the end of each parliamentary Session listing all ministerial directions made across Government. That is because this information is already published in all departments’ annual accounts and further publication is not considered necessary. However, by way of information, there have been no ministerial directions during the life of the current Government. The Government appreciate that the accounting officer of a department could potentially seek a direction from the Minister if pushed to pre-empt Parliament. However, this is really a signal that further discussion is needed to find a practical and appropriate way through. As noble Lords will be aware, directions are always a last resort.
I shall dip a little further into the detail of some of the issues that noble Lords referred to. The noble Baronesses, Lady Jay and Lady Andrews, referred to the disquiet caused in the cases of both the Health and Social Care Act and the Public Bodies Act. I did my research on these because I understood that that was what had prompted the committee to have a look at this issue. The essence of the Government’s position was that they already had the powers to effect the changes that were put in place. That is why there was no need to call on the contingency fund. The Government were essentially relying on their existing powers to cause those reorganisations.
In the case of the Health and Social Care Act, the Secretary of State for Health has broad duties and wide powers under existing legislation, including the National Health Service Act 2006, which confers a duty to promote a comprehensive health service and allows public expenditure to do so. That enabled the Department of Health to put in place the transition programme, which included setting up clinical commissioning groups, closing down primary care trusts and so on. The savings that the programme is designed to deliver would have been wanted irrespective of the organisation of the NHS to meet the requirements of the spending review.
In the case of the Public Bodies Act, to which a number of noble Lords referred—clearly this was a controversial subject at the time, so I understand their reaction—each of the bodies involved had a bespoke set of duties and responsibilities appropriate to its functions. The powers that they already had left considerable discretion about exactly how the functions should be discharged, which allowed for some reorganisation ahead of Royal Assent. That was the basis on which those actions took place.
The noble Lord, Lord Norton, talked about commencement orders. This is not my particular area of expertise but, as I understand it, it is a timing question, because commencement orders cannot be put until Royal Assent has been given, so it does not help with anticipation.
For clarification, it may be worth my running through the criteria that the Treasury applies to determine whether an action is urgent and in the public interest. The reason why the test would be met is that otherwise there would be an increase in implementation costs, efficiency savings would be lost or it would be detrimental to the public. Ministerial or policy imperative is not a relevant criterion in securing a contingencies fund advance.
A lot of the discussion was around pre-emptive action rather than pre-emptive expenditure. I agree that this is a difficult issue, which is why transparency and scrutiny are so important. In the vast majority of cases, though, pre-emptive actions will require a financial element, which is why Managing Public Money and the Treasury’s watchdog approach are a substantial defence, although I agree that that cannot work in absolutely every case.
The noble Lord, Lord Hart, was far more eloquent about the Ram doctrine than I could possibly be. I can tell the Committee that we have removed reference to it. The Treasury and the Government absolutely accept that the actions of a Minister are constrained by public law, human rights law and so on, as the noble Lord pointed out. It is the balance that really counts.
To sum up, the Government take controlling the pre-emption of Parliament extremely seriously. We are grateful that noble Lords have shown such an interest in this area and shed such light on it. I think that the changes that will result will make us a better Government. We have looked again at our guidance and modified it, and we are satisfied that we are operating a robust system.
Social Mobility
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord McFall of Alcluith
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of inequality on social mobility in the United Kingdom.
Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)
My Lords, it is a privilege to have secured this debate today on inequality and social mobility.
The American and British dream, that if you work hard and do the right thing, you prosper and do better economically than your parents, no longer applies. Indeed, the funeral rites for that were announced this week by President Obama in his State of the Union address when he said:
“Today, after four years of economic growth, corporate profits and stock prices have rarely been higher, and those at the top have never done better. But average wages have barely budged. Inequality has deepened. Upward mobility has stalled. The cold, hard fact is that even in the midst of recovery, too many Americans are working more than ever just to get by—let alone get ahead. And too many still aren't working at all”.
That picture is almost identical to the situation that exists in the United Kingdom, where we have seen a rapid increase in inequality in the past few decades and we are now at a lowly 28th out of 34 in the OECD equality league table. The IMF, the World Economic Forum at Davos and the Economist put inequality as one of the top global risks. In our country, Alan Milburn, the social mobility czar, and ex-Prime Minister John Major have expressed similar sentiments. They say that one of the causes of deepening inequality and static social mobility is the entrenched elitism in the United Kingdom.
That trend is most marked at the top of the pay scale. The income share of the top 1% doubled from 7.1% in 1970 to 14.3% in 2005. In 1997, the income of the top 0.1% of earners was 61 times the average of those in the bottom 90% of earners; by 2007, that multiple had climbed to 95 times and is still rising.
Why should we be concerned by that inequality? Frankly, because the disparity between rich and poor is leading to more alienation that, allied with high youth unemployment and growing inequality, harbours serious economic, social and political divisions. If not tackled, it will worsen.
Is growth the answer? We have seen growth without gain. The social contract in society is broken. It went along the lines that everyone got a share of the pie—some got a bigger share, some got a smaller share—but now some are getting no share of the pie at all.
The conventional political response has been framed simply as securing a steady recovery. In the past, we could assume that living standards always increased when the economy grew, but that was contingent on social and economic characteristics of the economy which no longer prevail. Change has taken place imperceptibly under our very feet and we can therefore no longer assume that a return to growth will mean gain for everyone. One of the most depressing statistics on social mobility came out of the OECD in a document about what was termed inter-generational social mobility. It demonstrated in the UK the extent to which a son's earnings are likely to reflect those of the father. Britain was top of the poll in that. So the message is that, in Britain, if you have rich parents your prosperity is more guaranteed; if you have poor parents, your future prosperity is stunted. That is why we need to look at that problem again.
The high levels of income inequality definitely generate political and social problems. In the book, What Money Can't Buy, by Michael Sandel, which I recommend to everyone, he states that,
“at a time of rising inequality, the marketisation of everything means that people of affluence and people of modest means lead increasingly separate lives. We live and work and shop and play in different places. Our children go to different schools”.
The big question for society is: how do we learn to negotiate, abide by our differences and come to care for the common good? At a recent talk given by the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury, he said that when he and his wife first came to London after spending many years in the north, it was a tale of two of cities, as Charles Dickens would have said. These are issues to which we must attend. As Parliamentarians the question is: do the present policies aid or detract from the common good? In this Palace, 35% of our MPs were privately educated in a country where 7% of the population have been privately educated. Ten per cent of our MPs were educated at just 13 schools, 12 of which were private. So, 60 of the nation’s Parliamentarians come from a microcosm of the educational establishment in our country. If we have 4,500 schools and 10% come from 13 schools, it shows the problem that has been built up.
I do not want to enter into class issues, although Warren Buffett got it right when he said amusingly class warfare had been going on for 20 years and that his class had won. It certainly won in the economic stakes. Given the shocking lack of social mobility, how do we, in the words of Alan Milburn, the social mobility tsar, break the glass ceiling? More and more people are coming out against that, whether in the law, medicine, politics or journalism. Alan Milburn said that it had all the hallmarks of social engineering.
Change can come only from the highest level of government, and only if the Prime Minister takes personal charge of the inequality and social mobility agenda. No. 10 has to be the driver in this to break the conventional approach to such problems. Departments should have to report to the Prime Minister’s Office on what new mindset and initiatives they are adopting to ensure that policies achieve a fairer society with equal opportunities for all, irrespective of class, income or gender. We need a new long-term agenda. We should abandon the political horizon of four or five years, equivalent to a Parliament.
I chaired for the Fabian Society a very dense document, which I recommend for bed-time reading as I am sure that noble Lords would get there quickly. The 2030 Vision report recognised that not all public money was spent well. As a result, we recommended that all spending decisions should include a 10-year test on what they would achieve, and a 10-year cost. By doing so, the long-term impacts would be considered, including the effects on society and on the public agencies. The problems are not confined to the United Kingdom; they are mirrored elsewhere and started decades ago. International co-operation is a must if we have to tackle this properly.
Talking of Davos, Klaus Schwab, who established it said that,
“systems that propagate inequality, or that seem unable to stem its rise, contain the seeds of their own destruction”.
To avoid such scenarios and create pathways to increase social mobility will require not only new policies but a new mindset.
Economic prosperity and social stability are two sides of the same coin. Only if they move forward in concert can we achieve a better, fairer and more prosperous society. As the ex-American President said, “It’s the economy, stupid”. I suggest that it is also the social, stupid.
Baroness Eaton (Con)
My Lords, a fair society is an open society, one in which every individual is free to succeed. The lack of social mobility is damaging to individuals and leaves countries’ economic potential unfulfilled. That is why improving social mobility is the principal goal of Her Majesty’s Government’s social policy.
Her Majesty’s Government have recognised that things can be done to aid the development of social mobility. Some examples are the creation of the business compact to encourage fair access to job opportunities; the increase in the pupil premium; access to early years education for two year-olds; the youth contract; and the increase in the availability of apprenticeships. Evidence shows that improvements are being made in some areas but there is still more that can be done.
In May 2012 the Social Mobility APPG published a report, Seven Key Truths about Social Mobility. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, who is in her place, and the members of the APPG for their work in this area. The report identified that character and resilience are the missing link in mobility,
“a force at play throughout the lifecycle but too often overlooked in favour of more tangible, easier-to- measure factors”.
So what can be defined as character and resilience? What characteristics does an individual possess that make for resilience? The list is long: tenacity and perseverance; the ability to overcome obstacles; self-esteem; self-discipline; aspiration and expectation; understanding the relationship between effort and reward; and staying power and self-reliance.
The golden age of social mobility is often said to have been between the post-war years and the 1970s. I am sure that many of us here today are the product of parents and ancestors who demonstrated character and resilience in their lives. My mother was adopted into a family where the sons, much older than my mother, who had survived the First World War returned to what seemed a very bleak future. They organised a barrow and started a business selling groceries on the streets of Bradford. The business developed and my grandmother became the owner, with her sons, of a successful grocery and delicatessen business, no longer working from a wheelbarrow. The family recognised the value of education, which in those days was not freely available, and paid for my mother to attend a good school. Their success was down to drive and resilience.
My father lost his father when he was very young. There was no widow’s pension in those days to support his mother and his partially sighted brother. My father was bright and was offered a place at the grammar school. However, his mother, who worked as a housekeeper to provide a home for her family, could not afford to pay the fees so my father could not accept the place. He had to leave school at 14 and work long hours, studying for a degree at night. He became an apprentice to Mr Rolls of Rolls-Royce fame and developed a successful career as a professional engineer.
I know that there are many who fight against the odds today and succeed in spite of all that life throws at them. I fully approve of the care that the welfare state provides today in all its forms, but I sometimes wonder how much resilience we have lost along the way. Governments have a role in ensuring that barriers to mobility are removed and that equality is truly achievable. The key determinant is, however, the attitude of the individual—the fire in the belly. The desire to succeed comes from within and is not something that government and state can create.
Lord McNally (LD)
My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord McFall. I shall take up two points that he made that are important to the character of this debate. He talked about the inequalities that have grown over the past few decades. It is important that we see that this has been under the stewardship of both parties—indeed, all three parties. He also made the point that not all public money has been well spent. That also colours the debate.
I probably belong to what I would describe as the guilty generation. My father never earned more than £1,000 a year in the whole of his working life. I was born on an ICI estate, but I went to grammar school on a Lancashire county scholarship and to university on a similar scholarship with a grant. I was never quite aware of how universities were funded in those days, but it certainly meant that my social mobility was on the back of a very generous state. In those days, of course, the early 1960s, I represented only 6% of my generation. I have never accepted that more means worse as far as university education is concerned, and have welcomed the expansion over recent years.
If I look back at the real advantages that I had, I see that I had aspirational parents; I had a home with books; I had a secure family background; and I lived in a stable community—not a particularly wealthy community, but one with values. I want to share two things that stick in my mind from my experience over the past few years as a Minister. One was a visit to a school in Leicester. I was walking around and talking to the deputy headmaster. I asked him, “Any problems here?” and he said, “Yes, that big estate over there is mainly white working class. In that estate now, we have the third generation of welfare dependency”. The other was a visit to a young offender institute. I was walking around with one of the people in charge, and we crossed a yard and saw about a dozen young, mainly black, youths, He just nodded across and said, “Most of those can’t read or write. Their contact with our educational system has been but passing for the whole of their lives”.
Those two stories encapsulate the problem for people of my generation and that of the noble Lord, Lord McFall. I came into politics with certainties. We were going to implement the Beveridge report, provide a welfare state that would deal with poverty and we would have comprehensive education that would be not bog-standard but a gateway for social mobility. We need to accept that some of the aspirations of the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s have not come about. As was said by the noble Lord, Lord McFall, we have found mounting inequalities over the past three decades. What is more, we have found them being embedded in our society. I received a very good brief from Oxfam. It quotes Sir Peter Lampl of the Sutton Trust, who said recently:
“Social mobility in Britain is much lower than in other advanced countries and is declining—those from less privileged backgrounds are more likely to continue facing disadvantage into adulthood, and the affluent continue to benefit disproportionately from educational opportunities”.
I do not think that there is some magic solution to this. Perhaps we will get a fourth way or a fifth way later—I do not know. Michael Gove and Iain Duncan Smith may not be everybody’s cup of tea politically but there is no doubt that, in trying to deal with welfare dependency and educational failure, they are addressing the right problems. In that respect, there needs to be a certain humility across the political divide in meeting those problems.
I believe that what the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, said was right: we have got to go upstream to the very young as a first step. I look forward, certainly with humility on my side, to the contributions that will follow.
The Lord Bishop of Derby
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord McFall, for his analysis, not least his observation that growth is not the answer and the unintended consequences of marketisation, as he called it. I probably want to explore what he might have meant by “the social, stupid”—there is an important clue in that.
I am engaged in this issue. In the City of Derby, where I work, I chair the inner city renewal project. That is the local authority and all kinds of voluntary and faith groups looking at how we can tackle this at grass-roots level, where there are a lot of people who are disadvantaged, with no social mobility and no equality in terms of finance, environment or opportunity. There are two ways of doing this. One is a needs-based approach—what are the needs and what resources can you put in to try to improve things?—and there is what they call an asset-based approach, which means asking what these people have in their own potential, as the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, said—what do they have that can be grown so that they can contribute?
I want to name a couple of presuppositions that we have to be careful of in this debate. We live in a world where everyone wants the social mobility graph to go up. There is a celebrity culture and everyone wants to be up there. Of course, things can only go up if other things go down. It is a very complex world. We tend to see equality and social mobility through a very individual lens. That is where “the social, stupid” is so important.
I want to talk about what I think is the missing ingredient here—perhaps the noble Lord, Lord McNally, hinted at it with his common values—which is mutuality. This is a debate with anecdotes and stories, and I am going to tell a very short story to illustrate mutuality. Aristotle says that we are social animals and the Christian Gospel says that you have to love your neighbour. We cannot live on our own—mutuality.
A couple of weeks ago I was privileged to rededicate the grave of a man called William Coltman VC. He received four other awards for bravery in the First World War, and he is buried in a village called Winshill near Burton-on-Trent. He went to war as a young man with a wife and young child, and he was a stretcher-bearer. On the front he won many awards and was in fact the most highly decorated soldier in the whole of the First World War—this is someone who did not have an officer rank. There are amazing stories of him crawling out and rescuing people, Germans as well as Allied people, saving lives and serving others. He came back to the little village that he had left, Winshill, as a local hero, but he resumed his job for the local council. He was a council gardener—he worked in what we call the parks department, I suppose—for all his life. There was no social mobility in terms of his becoming a vice-chancellor, his salary going up or whatever. His life was about service to others. He was involved in the Christian church in the place and he ran a Sunday school to form young people in mutuality. However, his life was fulfilled, exemplary and appropriate. He did not have to go up the social scale and did not have to earn a certain amount of money, but he lived a life that was full of mutuality.
In a world where mutuality is disappearing in personal relationships, which we see through an individual lens, from the workplace, because it is all about individual rights and benefits, and from politics, because the pitch that we make is to the selfish interests of each voter to vote for their own best deal, there is an enormous challenge to all of us to face up to what has been called “the social, stupid”. I ask the Minister: what role do the Government have, along with other agencies, to encourage people to look at this whole issue of inequality and the lack of social mobility, not just through the economic and individual lenses of progress and that kind of thing—going up the chart—but through the kind of common values that create communities and mutuality, where there is a different way of handling the downs as well as the ups and you are not measuring yourself or crucifying yourself against the wrong criteria?
Certainly, the inner city renewal project that I am involved in will flourish only through mutuality. There is not enough money, resources or good jobs to lift all these people, but there is something in the human spirit that can deliver. Governments do not control the human spirit but I think that they can initiate partnerships, set benchmarks and give signals to challenge “the social, stupid”, which is about measuring individual achievement, and they can try to bat for mutuality.
Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord McFall, for initiating this debate. Working for a fairer society and improving social mobility have long been at the heart of Liberal Democrat policies. We do not have a monopoly on that—and certainly mutuality would be something else that we would espouse. But being in coalition government has given us the opportunity to put forward measures and arguments which, as with today’s debate, resonate not only with our coalition partners but across political parties and well beyond.
As the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission highlighted in their excellent report, when one in six children—2.3 million children—are officially classified as poor, it extracts a high social price, and there is an economic price in wasted potential and lower growth. I shall concentrate my remarks on education and training for adult life, particularly for those whose start in life has been disadvantaged, and I acknowledge that women and girls can experience additional difficulties in the campaign for equality.
One of the forms of poverty that most severely hampers growth is poverty of aspiration. My noble friend Lord McNally spoke eloquently about aspiration. For those children whose experience has been limited and who know little of stable family life, or perhaps of the rewards and demands of working life, schools have a vital part to play in introducing them to the opportunities of the world of work. From an early age, children should understand the connections between school and work, between study and business, and between applying themselves and earning a living. Even at primary school, children’s imaginations can be captured by hearing about jobs and careers that they knew nothing about—and better still by visits to workplaces and meeting those genuinely enthusiastic about the work that they do. If this is important for children who enjoy academic learning, it is even more so for those who struggle with conventional lessons but who may have practical skills and talents that are not immediately valued, especially in league tables in a school environment.
Having worked for years on vocational qualifications for City & Guilds, I have seen how pupils can blossom when the curriculum gives them a chance to shine. I had been a classroom teacher, and I recall visiting schools that offer prevocational qualifications. The enthusiasm of the students was contagious as they applied themselves to mending car engines, caring for babies, planning and cooking meals—the very young people, as the schools told me, who had been demotivated and disruptive in academic lessons. They were acquiring not only skills but confidence and self-respect, which is much more likely to happen with good careers advice. One of the report’s recommendations was to urge the Government to improve resources for careers advice, a call that we are now hearing from all sides. I shall not task my noble friend the Minister with committing to this, but I hope that the Department for Education and Skills can be persuaded of the importance of careers education even given all the constraints on public spending and indeed, on the school timetable.
As my noble friend Lady Eaton said, we all welcome the increase in apprenticeships as a valid alternative to university, a true aid to social mobility. In a statement last March, the Government announced:
“We are extending apprenticeships to higher level skills and into the professions like insurance, accountancy and the law”.—[Official Report, 14/3/13; col. 400.]
Many of us are probably old enough to remember the days when professions had direct routes from school which were as highly regarded as graduate entry and led to careers that could be just as successful. For many young people, learning at work is more in line with their culture and ambitions, and we look forward to expansion of these routes into more professions and the end of inequalities between academic and practical attainment. As the commission recommends, non-graduate routes should become the norm across the professions.
Finally, I pay tribute to youth organisations for the part that they play in social mobility. Organisations such as scouting and girl guiding and the cadet organisations, and a wide range of voluntary and community youth groups, provide invaluable services, particularly in more disadvantaged areas and give young people an opportunity to develop personal and social skills, take responsibility and gain confidence, and learn both self-respect and respect for others. With the uniformed organisations and schemes such as the Duke of Edinburgh’s Award scheme, young people are faced with challenges; they learn how to manage risk and develop ways which, whatever their start in life, can lead to fulfilling and useful lives. We cannot afford to squander the talents of any of our people, but I would submit that it is not just government that has a key role. All of us as members of society can play our part in helping young and old to fulfil their potential, realise aspirations and build a fairer society.
Lord Giddens (Lab)
My Lords, I want to take my noble friend Lord McFall’s question seriously and ask: what is the relationship between inequality and social mobility? There are often problems when a technical concept enters popular and political discourse, and that has certainly been the case with the notion of social mobility. There are many misunderstandings about it. If one does not sort them out, it is almost impossible to make proper policy.
For example, the idea has taken hold that there has been a serious decline in social mobility over the past three or four decades. To quote the Observer, social mobility “has ground to a halt”. It was this concern that prompted the Milburn report and a range of other publications. However, there are two problems with this view. First, it seems to be substantially false. It has been subjected to a powerful critique from John Goldthorpe and his colleagues at the University of Oxford. Secondly—I hope that noble Lords will forgive me for being an academic about this but it is essential—the current discussion of social mobility fails to grasp the crucial distinction which sociologists make between absolute and relative mobility. We cannot understand current patterns of mobility if we do not grasp that notion. It is an essential distinction to make.
Absolute mobility refers to the proportion of people from specific class backgrounds who move upwards: in other words, the number of people who move upwards. Relative social mobility is a very different notion. It is the one that many people equate with social mobility, but that is wrong. Relative social mobility means the chances of individuals becoming mobile. In other words, it is a measure of social fluidity. It refers, if you like, to some individuals succeeding at the expense of others. It means that if there are high levels of relative upward mobility, there must be high levels of downward mobility as well. They are two very different notions and we have to sort them out.
The results of Goldthorpe's work are interesting and instructive for policy. They show that rates of absolute mobility from one generation to another across the 20th century in the UK and elsewhere have actually been quite high and remain high. The reason is simple: there has been an expansion of white-collar and professional occupations at the expense of less skilled manual jobs. The main reason for the apparent fluidity of our society is that structural change has produced a lot more opportunities at the top. Goldthorpe also shows, interestingly, that relative mobility has remained static across that period. In other words, contrary to what one might assume, the UK did not become a more fluid society over the past 40 or 50 years; there was not more fluidity and movement. Almost all the movement was upward mobility going into the jobs that were created.
Of course, as the noble Lord, Lord McNally, described, individual capacities make a difference as to who gets into those positions. However, the dominant feature is structural mobility over that period not, if you like, a more just or equal society.
Obviously, that does not mean that the plethora of policies contained in the Milburn report are without value but, as Goldthorpe says, no matter how gratifying those policies may be, politically their impact is likely to be quite limited. He is right to say that. In other words, more advantaged groups are often able to draw on their resources to negate the policies introduced with the best of intentions for introducing more relative mobility. That is a serious issue for such policies. For example, you might introduce a policy to help kids from an inner-city school to get into a higher level of the system, but middle-class parents can easily mobilise to negate that because they are not stupid and they know what is going on, too. So there is a powerful dialectic in all of this.
The conclusion that I draw is similar to Goldthorpe’s conclusion, which is that we must place the emphasis on equality rather than mobility. Social mobility in everyday talk these days functions as a kind of relatively seemingly painless equivalent for equality. As the noble Lord, Lord McFall, stressed, equality comes first because without greater equality we cannot improve social mobility. Equality not only trumps mobility, it is the main source of achievement. I do not see what policies the Government have for limiting the structural inequalities that were so well defined in the opening speech of the noble Lord, Lord McFall.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)
My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord McFall, for securing this vital debate. From listening to today’s debate and to wider debates in the area, it is sometimes tempting to think that there is a singular causal connection between these two worrying economic trends—growing income inequality and slowing social mobility. I suspect that the truth is not so simple. There is a significant body of research suggesting that rising inequality and lower social mobility are both symptoms of the same condition. This condition, as we heard so eloquently from the noble Lord, Lord Giddens—I do not pretend to have his academic background—is what is sometimes called the hollowing out of the labour market. Increasingly the UK labour market is characterised by very high-skill, high-wage jobs on the one hand and low-skill, low-wage jobs on the other. This is having a major impact on feelings of fairness and social cohesion. For the record, yes I think that the widening gap between the rich and the poor really matters.
In the light of this fact about our labour market, I would like to focus today on the role that education plays in creating greater equality of opportunity. This is not because I do not think that certain economic measures can improve income equality. In fact, I believe that things such as raising the minimum wage and encouraging employers to pay a living wage, which is something I support very strongly, could make a significant difference. I want to focus on education because, as the noble Lord, Lord McNally, said, it is only through education that we can truly tackle the pernicious problem of intergenerational social mobility. As the Save the Children’s briefing for this debate highlighted, the top performing countries on international educational comparisons—Hong Kong, Canada, and Japan—all have a comparatively low correlation between the socioeconomic status of a child’s parents and his or her performance in school. Therefore, if we are going to improve our education system to meet the highest international standards, which we must, we have to meet the challenge of improving inter-generational mobility head on.
Through my work as the vice-chair of the All-Party Group on Social Mobility, I have come to the conclusion that any social mobility strategy needs to have the following primary goal: continuously evaluating and improving our education system to ensure that all children develop the skills necessary to succeed in a demanding and changing labour market. This means investing to improve the quality of education that underprivileged children receive throughout their lives. Given that privileged children continue to enjoy disproportionately high access to a good education it should be no surprise that a person’s ability to get on in today’s jobs market is strongly correlated with the resources enjoyed by his or her parents. This lack of intergenerational mobility will continue unless we make a commitment to ensure that all children have access to a high-quality education. I think that state sector education should be as good as, if not better than education in the independent sector. Importantly, this equality of access refers not only to education during the school years, but early years education, further education and higher education. I would say that further education is often neglected in these debates.
I shall refer briefly, as did the noble Lord, Lord McFall, to the 2010 OECD report on income inequality. That report made clear that one of the best ways for developed nations to improve their overall rate of social mobility is by lengthening at both ends the portion of a child’s life that he or she spends learning, regardless of his or her parents’ income level. Today, access to high-quality early years education as well as higher education is still disproportionately enjoyed by those on the higher end of the income spectrum. This must change if we are to see any improvement in the overall level of social mobility.
Lengthening the time that every person spends in education will ultimately help more people be more qualified for better jobs. Employers are increasingly looking for employees with technological literacy, advanced foreign language skills and other key qualifications for a career in the 21st century. At the same time, employers are looking for certain character and resilience traits. They want people who do not get discouraged when the going gets tough, who can bounce back, who can work in teams and build meaningful relationships. These soft skills—or non-cognitive skills—are crucial to social mobility and should feature far more prominently among our educational priorities, particularly in the early years. The evidence shows how important this is.
I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Eaton for mentioning that, next week, the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Social Mobility will publish a major manifesto on character and resilience, and I hope that there will be an opportunity to debate it.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, I also thank my noble friend Lord McFall for tabling this Question for Short Debate. It has enabled an excellent opportunity for us to discuss this important subject.
The 2013 report of the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission is, in part, sombre and depressing reading. Despite being one of the richest countries in the world, and becoming richer, we have struggled to become fairer. As my noble friend Lord McFall pointed out, the UK is now ranked 28th out of 34 countries in the OECD equality table.
In this short debate it will not be possible to make all the points and put all the questions to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, that I wish to. However, I have a few points to make and a few questions. I do not expect to get all the answers today but I would like a commitment from the Minister to write to me after the debate and place a copy of the letter in the Library of the House.
The figures on child poverty are there for us all to see. By making a real effort to tackle the causes of child poverty, we could create a tangible boost to the economy by as much as twice the cost that we are paying for child poverty today. The achievement of lower child poverty and higher social mobility comes back to universal affordable child care, higher quality jobs, fair access to higher education, work incentives that encourage employment and tackling income inequality. There is plenty of evidence out there that if we were fairer as a nation we would all be better off.
I support initiatives such as breakfast clubs and universal free school meals to help children. They would ensure that children had a hot meal inside them and were able to learn better. I commend the report of the inquiry by the London Assembly, chaired by my friend, Fiona Twycross AM. The report is entitled A Zero Hunger City and has the backing of the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson. It makes many recommendations, including working with partners to establish sustainable breakfast clubs in London; lobbying the Government to agree with the London Food Board to identify models for providing universal free school meals for all schoolchildren; monitoring risk factors for food poverty, including welfare reform; school plans to identify and address hunger throughout the school day; and support for families in food poverty.
The noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, made some excellent points about resilience and people working to achieve their goals despite what life throws at them. I agree with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord McNally, when he spoke about growing up and being lucky. I am a little younger than the noble Lord but we also did not have a great deal of money and my parents had to have second jobs to pay the bills and make ends meet. They arrived in this country in the 1950s as immigrants from Ireland. However, I lived in a stable family on a safe council estate in Southwark. I was always encouraged and supported and I am lucky to have had that.
I have always been of the opinion that going to work was good for people. We must have in place measures to make work pay and to deal with low pay. It is most regrettable that the UK remains at the wrong end of the international league table on wages, with more than one in five full-time workers classified as low-paid. Those most at risk of being low-paid are young, female, low-skilled workers in temporary or part-time work, often in the hospitality, retail or care sectors. Given this and the imbalance in the growth of the economy, things can be very tough in some parts of the regions and nations of this country. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, also made a point about his visit to Leicester. That reminded me of a conversation that I had with my noble friend Lord Donoughue, who told me that he had gone back to where he had grown up and met people who had not worked in three generations. That is something that we have to address; that cannot be right.
Many times in the Grand Committee and in the Chamber of the House of Lords we have talked about reducing the deficit. There is no arguing about that—we have to reduce it. However, it is unfair for the lowest earning fifth of households to make a larger contribution than any other group than the top 20%, both as a proportion as their incomes and in absolute terms, with low-income families, and especially lone parents, losing out by more than their peers as a proportion of their net income. The fact is that we are a divided country; there are haves and have-nots. Because we are not fairer, we all lose out and, in particular, some people never get the chance to develop, let alone to realise their true potential.
Have the Government looked at the London Assembly report, A Zero Hunger City? What did they think of it—and, if they have not looked at it, will they look at it? In reducing the deficit, as we come to the last part of this Parliament, what are they going to do to make the debt reduction programme fairer for all? It appears likely at present that the Government will not meet their 2020 targets on child poverty. What is the plan to get that back on track? What are we going to do to make work pay in more cases than at present, and what examples are the Government setting on making work pay? Is the living wage the answer? What government departments and agencies pay the living wage, and do the companies that they contract do so? What do they say to business about making work pay for employees? He may not reply to all those points today, but if he could write to me I would appreciate it. I thank my noble friend for this debate.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, this has been an invaluable debate. I was reading the debate that we had under the leadership of the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, some six months ago, and I hope that we shall have another one in another six months’ time because there are some really serious issues that we all have to struggle with.
The noble Lord, Lord McFall, compared the British position to the American position. I recognise the comparison but I also recognise the differences. The American Administration are not attempting to push through a social mobility strategy as we are doing. Indeed, the inequalities in the United States, in economic and other terms, are much wider than they are in Britain. At least we have a consensus across all parties in Britain that we have to tackle what has been a long-term problem with a long-term response. The noble Lord mentioned the former Prime Minister John Major as well as Harold Macmillan; this issue has developed over the past 25 to 30 years and it will take 25 to 30 years to cope with it, against the headwinds of continuing economic and technological changes, both within Britain and abroad. After all, it is partly a result of global economic trends, with the collapse of the old mass-manufacturing industry that supported the skilled working class in stable working-class communities, with the institutions that held those communities together, such as the chapel, the trade union and the Workers’ Educational Association—a co-operative, heaven knows—which have also decayed with the decay of the economic structures that held them all together. I see the right reverend Prelate nodding. I can say from the point of view of West Yorkshire that the church has survived more successfully than many of the non-conformist churches in some of those areas, and I am very grateful for that.
Lord Giddens
The time when those organisations were dominant was a time when mobility was lower than it was later, for the reasons that I mentioned.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
Yes, there was selective mobility, and that is part of the issue that we have. The noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, talked about her father and her grandmother. My parents-in-law were the youngest in a working class family and their eldest brothers and sisters paid for them to stay at school through Bradford grammar school and university. There was in those years very small-scale social mobility for a small minority of the bright poor who got out, so to speak.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
Precisely. Britain’s situation also reflects the historic anomaly, of which I am very conscious as I have just come from a meeting of the advisory board on the centenary of World War I and have been reading into early 20th century history, that we have much more continuity of social structures over the past 150 years than many of our comparators. We still have the structure of private schools, which supported the Empire. We still have an unelected House of Lords. We still have a social hierarchy which is remarkably resistant to change, whereas in Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, Belgium and, to some extent, also in France and Italy those old structures were swept away, which made it easier to have a more mobile and mutually respecting society.
The coalition Government’s social mobility agenda is something which we see as a cross-party, cross-government exercise, and it starts from the assumption that there has to be a partnership between economy, society and state—we have to get all those things in balance. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, that we shall be working on that against a number of very difficult global economic trends and against the challenge of the next round of economic and technological change, which may well sweep away a very large number of basic white-collar jobs, thus raising all sorts of issues about moving towards a society in which there are a number of extremely successful, very well paid people and, at the other end, a number of poorly paid, poorly skilled people. Dealing with that will take quite a lot of effort in our turn.
I should tell the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, that when I was an undergraduate, my most inspirational teacher was a graduate student called John Goldthorpe, so I have a great deal of respect for everything that John has written and continues to write. However, as the noble Lord knows well, perfect equality is not achievable; a reduction in the degree of inequality is. That is, after all, what a liberal society should attempt to work for. This Government are mounting an attack on tax avoidance. We face the problem of what I have to call the rootless rich, who have escaped the boundaries of nation states and thus managed extremely successfully to avoid tax. We need taxes on wealth, which is much less mobile than income. At the bottom, we have increased the threshold at which people start to pay income tax. There is the move towards universal credit and in encouraging more people into work. We are extremely happy that the level of youth unemployment is now on a downward trend, and we are doing as much as we can to ensure that that continues.
International economic trends help us. The Financial Times had an interesting article yesterday which suggested that there is now a downward trend in excessive executive salaries after the excesses of the past 20 years. We are affected by what is happening elsewhere, and we have to push very hard to provide for our own deeply interdependent society as much of a social compact in the global economy as we can. I worry about the impact on British society and the British economy of the influx of the super-wealthy from non-democratic states. That ought to be of concern, particularly to all those who live in London and the south-east of England.
We have now reached the stage where we all realise that the state cannot deal with a problem like that alone; the state cannot provide everything and our taxpayers are unwilling to pay for much more of what is needed. They want the services, but they are deeply resistant to higher taxation, so we have to talk about the role of independent social initiatives—what I still like to call the big society—the role of local communities and local action. Incidentally, we have to think about planning and building communities which hang together. Living in Saltaire, which is a very dense village where it is impossible not to know your neighbours, and having canvassed when I was the local candidate for Shipley in a number of the new housing estates where you do not know your neighbours, the husband has gone out in the only family car and the wife is marooned on her own, I am very conscious that the way in which we build communities in Britain also deserves a great deal more attention. We need more local government and local engagement and, as we have said about other areas, we need to persuade more of the young to vote and become engaged, because we know that all our political parties are pooled towards supporting the old and not putting enough money into the young.
On equality of education, the Government are now extending the pupil premium. In September 2014 we will extend 15 free hours of high-quality early education to 40% of two year-olds—not an easy task when at the same time the number of two year-olds is rising quite sharply. We inherited Teach First from our predecessor Labour Government and we have continued to expand it. The Teach First teachers that I have seen in various schools in West Yorkshire are absolutely first-class. We all know from what the All-Party Group on Social Mobility has said that raising the quality of teaching is a very important part of all this. Intergenerational equity, putting more money into children at the early stage, is very much part of what we need to do.
The noble Lord, Lord McFall, also mentioned the professions. I have to say that the figures on professions are deeply worrying, and I hope that whichever Government come in next time will look in particular at the question of recruitment into the legal profession as the one that sticks out most strongly as an inherited one.
Aspiration, character and resilience are clearly extremely important; I think that we have all now gripped that. Providing children with a sense of self-worth through school, careers guidance, music, sports, volunteering and mentoring is important. I am an extremely strong supporter of the National Citizen Service; I am about to ask the Cabinet Office whether it will be willing to provide an introduction to the NCS to any Member of the House of Lords who would like to see it, because I became enthusiastic when I had seen one or two courses myself. Through partnership with business, the Government now have a business compact. The Deputy Prime Minister has just given Opening Doors awards to a number of businesses that have been extremely good at pulling people into work. Apprenticeships are important, and I have to say that the apprentice that we had in the Government Whips’ Office was a classic example—a young woman who had been a hairdresser, and had not thought that she could be anything else, who blossomed in the six months that she was with us. All these things help to give young people a greater sense that they can do things. That is a very large agenda.
As the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby said, we have to be careful to get beyond the idea that it is all about everyone getting to the top. The importance of the apprenticeship schemes, which I am extremely proud of this Government expanding, is that they are giving a number of young people a sense of self-worth in craft skills. That is a revival of an old mutuality of respect that we clearly need to do. Unfortunately, we cannot provide the independent business that also used to be part of the business of respect. I come from four different families and my great-grandparents were all small shopkeepers, so I am incredibly petty bourgeois. The mutuality of respect is part of what we all now need to rebuild.
We are out of time but we could have debated this for a great deal longer. I thank the noble Lord for raising this issue, and I repeat: I hope that we will continue to address this subject as a very broad long-term issue for this country over the years to come.
House of Lords
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Introduction: The Lord Bishop of Portsmouth
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Electoral Fraud
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Hanham
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the recommendations in the final report of the Electoral Commission Electoral fraud in the UK.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, we are carefully considering the Electoral Commission’s recent report and its three main recommendations and will respond in the coming months. We welcome the commission’s finding that electoral fraud is not widespread and agree that we should continue to consider ways to safeguard electoral integrity. That is why the Government are introducing individual electoral registration from June this year, which will help make registration more secure.
Baroness Hanham (Con)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I am sure that many Members of this House will welcome the proposals in the package put forward by the Electoral Commission to be introduced by 2014. However, it proposes to leave the introduction of one area until 2020: individual identification at polling stations. In responding to the report, will the Government consider encouraging the commission to bring that forward, as it is a very important aspect of preventing fraud?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the Government are considering that although I have to say that Ministers are not yet convinced of its desirability. We all know from the American experience that demanding qualifications and identification at polling stations tends to discourage people from going to vote and we do not wish to discourage people from going to vote. There is less evidence of personation at polling stations than there is of multiple registration—ghost voters being put on the register—or of postal vote fraud, so we are not yet persuaded that the response is proportionate to the problem we face.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)
My Lords, is it not interesting to note in the detail of the report that the Electoral Commission is finally prepared to recognise that there are high-risk areas, which it identifies and lists, which are identifiable as having ethnic minority populations, where it believes that there is a particular problem? Is it not true that if the commission had been prepared to admit that four years ago, when the legislation was introduced, we could have avoided spending tens of millions of pounds on an individual registration scheme, which is a total waste of public money, and could have targeted that resource on the areas where there is a particular problem? We are wasting public money on a scheme which is utterly ridiculous.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I entirely disagree with the noble Lord on that. We are one of the few democracies that clings to the 19th century approach of household registration. Individual electoral registration is much more appropriate to the population we now have.
Lord Tyler (LD)
My Lords, given that my noble friend has already said that the most prevalent problem in the past has been fraudulent use of the postal vote system, is he confident that the returning officers, who will now have to check personal identifiers for every single postal vote returned, will have the necessary resources this year to deal with that? Will he assure the House that a proper and careful review will be carried out in advance of the 2014 elections to make sure that the system works much better than it has done in the past in this respect in preparation for a higher turnout, presumably, in 2015?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I am informed that, in practice, almost all electoral registration officers are already checking 100% of postal votes, although they are currently required by law to check only 20%.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, coming back to the point raised by my noble friend and the issue of potential impersonation at polling stations, does the Minister recognise that in some places, particularly Birmingham, there are instances in which large crowds of men gather outside schools and intimidate some voters to prevent their going into vote? Does the noble Lord agree that that is what attention should be focused on and that the police need to be advised that they should take action when it occurs?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I do a lot of my politics in Bradford, as the noble Lord knows, and I am well aware of the differences between the local problems we have with the voting system. One of the reasons that the new regulations allow for police community support officers to be present in polling stations is precisely to deal with that sort of occasional outbreak of intimidation. There is, as we all know, a problem of registration fraud—ghost voters being put on the register—but, again, it is localised. As I am sure all noble Lords know, this is much more of a problem for local elections than for parliamentary elections.
Lord Glentoran (Con)
Is the noble Lord aware that personal identification is now in operation in Northern Ireland, has been for some time, and is, I believe, a success?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I am well aware of that. Indeed, the Electoral Commission looked at the Northern Ireland scheme in particular and has estimated that if we were to extend it to Great Britain, with likely take-up, based on the Northern Ireland model, of 10%—mostly young voters—it would cost some £28 million.
The Lord Bishop of Wakefield
My Lords, following the question of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, about areas of high risk, in our diocese of Wakefield the local authority of Kirklees has been pinpointed as just one such area for the sort of reasons that the noble Lord mentioned. The local authority is working hard with a number of agencies to ensure the probity of the next elections. Will the Minister say what sort of support will be given to councils to enable them to fulfil this important duty?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I was discussing that exact question with the electoral registration officer of Kirklees the summer before last, including the authority’s co-operation with the police. We all know that there are pockets of problems within Kirklees. It is a matter for local co-operation with the police, who are well aware of this. We are also well aware that there is a certain tendency in some local elections for candidates to use allegations of electoral fraud against each other as part of the local campaign. That is one of the reasons why the police are occasionally a little sceptical about allegations being thrown around during the campaign.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the Electoral Commission is responding to complaints from members of the public about the Scottish Government using taxpayers’ money for propaganda purposes, as part of the independence referendum campaign, by saying that it is not the commission’s responsibility? Does that not make a mockery of having election expenses and rules for expenditure in referendum campaigns? What is the head of the Civil Service going to do about this continuing abuse?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I am well aware of this; indeed, the noble Lord has made sure that I am well aware of it. I am conscious that the Cabinet Office owes him a letter, which is in process, in reply to his previous Question.
Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, does the Minister accept that this whole debate is riddled with political correctness? For the great majority in the United Kingdom, there is no problem whatever of electoral fraud. Why are we wasting tens of millions of pounds?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I am not quite as confident that there is no problem of electoral fraud outside the South Asian Muslim community, which I think the noble Lord was getting close to saying. As a young Liberal, I listened to many people talking about quite considerable electoral fraud among the white population during elections held in the 1940s and 1950s. I am not entirely sure that it has completely disappeared today.
Prisons: Deaths of Young People
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Ramsbotham
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to hold an independent review into deaths of young people in custody as recommended in the report by Inquest and the Prison Reform Trust Fatally Flawed; and, if so, when.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) (Con)
My Lords, we have decided to hold an independent review to learn lessons from self-inflicted deaths of young adults in custody aged between 18 and 24 and to identify actions to prevent further deaths. The review will be led by the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, who I see is in his place. He is the chair of the Independent Advisory Panel of the Ministerial Council on Deaths in Custody. The review will report by spring 2015.
Lord Ramsbotham (CB)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that positive response, but I am sorry that the review’s remit does not include children aged under 18. Since January 2011, 16 young adults aged between 18 and 21 have taken their own lives in custody and, worryingly, eight of those deaths have occurred in the last four months. All of them took place in adult prisons, to which it is currently the policy to send young adults rather than to young offender institutions.
In a thematic review, Suicide is Everyone’s Concern, in 1999, I made specific recommendations regarding the safety of young people, yet year after year the same old failings following young suicides are recorded in inspection and inquest reports, such as the lack of institutional understanding of, or attention paid to, the particular needs of that vulnerable age group. Now the Ministry of Justice plans to create secure colleges—fortified schools—for under-18s and, as I have mentioned already, to put all those aged over 18 into adult prisons, both of which could exacerbate existing flaws and create significant risk to young lives. Does the Minister accept that a degree of urgency exists and will he consider advancing the time by which the noble Lord, Lord Harris, is required to complete his review so that necessary improvements to current practice, based on the mass of existing evidence, can be considered in time to be built into the new proposals?
Lord Faulks
My Lords, the review will start as soon as resources are in place, and we are anxious that it should report back by the spring of 2015. That does not mean that lessons are not continuously learnt from all the other sources that provide information. The review will focus on key themes, including vulnerability information sharing and the safety of young people.
The noble Lord referred to the secure colleges which are shortly to be established, the announcement of which is contained in the Criminal Justice and Courts Bill. The secure colleges will put education at the heart of youth custody and are intended to provide an innovative and holistic approach to the education and rehabilitation of young offenders so that fewer go on to reoffend.
Those aged under 18 are currently held in secure children’s homes, secure training centres and young offender institutions. No under-18s are mixed with over-18s. As to 18 to 20 year-olds, they are currently in young offender institutions, and the Government consultation on whether this age group should be in prisons with older adults closed in December. We are putting on hold the Government response to the consultation pending the result of this particular review.
Lord Patel of Bradford (Lab)
My Lords, what inquiries are the Government making and, better still, what action are they taking with respect to what appears to be the disproportionate number of young black men dying in a range of custodial settings?
Lord Faulks
My Lords, every single death in custody is investigated by means of an inquest by the Prisons and Probation Ombudsman and all lessons are shared. One of the purposes of the review is to go beyond the focus on individual circumstances, important though they are, to see whether lessons can be learnt from putting together all the individual facts which are derived from those investigations. I accept what the noble Lord says and, if there are specific aspects deriving from ethnic origins, I am sure that those will be taken into consideration.
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone (LD)
My Lords, for a child to commit suicide at all is a tragedy, but for a child to commit suicide while in custody is a catastrophe. Will the Minister ensure that professionals inside and outside the prison are required to share information and to look at the underlying issues as part of sentence planning for these children? This is not routine practice today. Will the Minister also ensure that much more specialist training is given to prison staff? These children are very disturbed, damaged and difficult, but also in deep distress. The Government must act on this intolerable situation instantly.
Lord Faulks
My Lords, the noble Baroness identifies a matter of great concern to the Government. Under-18s are considered in various ways, through the work of the Youth Justice Board and the NOMS review of the assessment, care in custody and teamwork process—the acronym ACCT will be familiar to the noble Baroness and to the House. However, we intend to learn from this review as applied to this age group.
I entirely accept that suicide in any circumstances is a tragedy. We are concerned to focus on the early days in custody, when young offenders are particularly vulnerable. All prisoners will receive an initial health screening within 24 hours of reception and there will be an initial assessment of their risk of self-harm. If the prisoner is identified as being at particular risk, the assessment will take place within 24 hours and governors must ensure that arrangements are in place for staff to monitor prisoner safety and well-being throughout the first night in the prison. It is right to say that there is a disproportionate occurrence of suicide during the early stages of custody, so the suicide prevention strategy will be specifically targeted at that stage.
Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, the Government have drawn attention to the problem of the deaths of young people in custody. I welcome the Minister’s announcement today, although I continue to share some of the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. There is continuing concern about the incidence of self-harm and suicide among women prisoners, who form 5% of the prison population but account for one-third of the incidence of self-harm and four times the number of suicides as men. They are 36 times more likely to commit suicide or die of an accidental overdose of drugs in the first two weeks after release. It is time for a radical change of policy in relation to the imprisonment of women and especially in the practice of segregation.
Lord Faulks
My Lords, we have been working hard to improve support for women in prison. We have issued gender-specific standards in all areas of prison regimes, including training for staff working with female offenders in prisons, which has now been extended to service providers in the community. New search arrangements ending routine full searching for women prisoners have also been introduced. The House will know that there are six mother and baby units in England and Wales which provide an overall capacity of 64 places.
I am slightly surprised at the noble Lord’s statistics. He is right that my research into this matter shows that women are disproportionately more likely to self-harm than men, relative to their occupation of prisons. Fortunately, the self-harm, compared with men’s self-harm, does not tend to be as serious, and does not usually require hospitalisation, although I do not suggest for a moment that any self-harm is not a significant factor. The statistics that I have been given do not indicate that women form a large part of those who have been responsible for self-inflicted deaths. I will write to the noble Lord with statistics. I hesitate to bandy them across the Dispatch Box but I do not think he is quite right.
Earl Cathcart (Con)
My Lords, will legal aid be available following a death in custody if there is an inquiry?
Lord Faulks
My noble friend identifies a statutory source of inquiry that is of great importance to the inquest, which very much expanded following the application of Article 2 of the European convention. The House will know of the establishment of the post of chief coroner, who gives directions as to how these inquests should be carried out. Although the Government, because of the restricted financial circumstances, have had to make various cutbacks in legal aid, I am glad to say that the scope of exceptional funding under Section 10 of the LASPO Act allows the Director of Legal Aid Casework to provide legal aid in circumstances where Article 2 is engaged and there is a convention right. The Lord Chancellor’s guidance to the director makes it clear that,
“It is … likely that an arguable breach of the substantive obligation will occur where the individual has died in State custody other than from natural causes: for example, killings or suicides in prison”,
so it is highly likely that legal aid will be available.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland (CB)
My Lords, the Minister will be quite aware that it is the build-up of stress throughout the system that leads to these young people self-harming. He will also be aware that, at the very beginning of the process, many of them are being held inappropriately in police cells because of the lack of facilities in the rest of the system. Would he ensure that that is included in the inquiry? I am absolutely sure that, if it is not, there will be a tragedy and we will have another inquiry.
Lord Faulks
We have the good fortune of having the noble Lord, Lord Harris, present in the Chamber. I am sure he will have heard that question and taken it into account. I am unable to give the House actual statistics on the situation that the noble Baroness describes, but clearly the duty on the state to look after young people arises just as acutely whether they are in police cells or in prison.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford) (Con)
My Lords, we will hear from the Labour Benches first. I am sure we can get both questions in if we are quick, and if the questions are short and the answers brief.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall
My Lords, briefly, could the Minister confirm that the health assessment at the very beginning of custody includes assessment of mental health? If it does—which I hope it does—can the Minister say who conducts those mental health assessments and whether they are fully competent to do so?
Lord Faulks
The noble Baroness makes a very good point. Prisoners are screened on arrival in prison by a trained nurse to find out their health needs, and people with mental health problems who might be vulnerable to suicide are referred for a mental health assessment. All prisoners have access to an on-site healthcare team which deals with most problems. If a prisoner is suffering from a severe mental health illness, they may be transferred to a secure hospital. Approximately 1,200 prisoners with a severe mental illness are transferred to NHS secure services. We recognise that prison may not be the most appropriate place and we are developing liaison and diversion services, together with the Department of Health and the Home Office, to ensure that people who are vulnerable are identified and can be diverted, if necessary, away from the criminal justice system.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, I have a simple but important question. Is the inquiry of the noble Lord, Lord Harris, to be an inquiry under the Inquiries Act 2005?
Lord Faulks
I am unable to give a precise answer, but it is certainly not within the scope of those terms specifically. I will write to the noble Lord to confirm that.
Flooding: Somerset
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Skelmersdale
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what the Army has so far done to help people affected by the floods in Somerset.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con)
My Lords, military personnel and Somerset County Council have conducted a joint reconnaissance of affected areas. This concluded that the civil authority’s response, augmented by the substantial deployment of the national fire and rescue service’s assets, had sufficient capacity to manage the necessary tasks. There is an established system for authorities to request military assistance, which has been called upon several times over recent weeks. A range of defence assets remain on six-hour notice to move in Somerset.
Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, the ongoing floods on the Somerset Levels in particular are causing misery to people and animals on farms. Does not the fact that the county council can when necessary call in the Army and the fact that the Bellwin formula has been extended to the end of March show that the Government are doing all that they can to exacerbate the problem, but that it is for the people on the ground actually to do the work?
Lord De Mauley
I am sure that my noble friend did not mean exactly what the Opposition thought he meant. The Army is on standby if necessary, as I have said. High-volume pumps have been deployed from the National Asset Register and they are in place to prevent further increases in levels of flood water. The pumping operation is in fact one of the largest that the country has seen. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has asked for a clear action plan for the sustainable future of the Somerset Levels and moors to resolve the problem for the next 20 years. Noble Lords will be aware that I am repeating a Statement later to deal with extra funds for repairs.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, has the Environment Agency got its priorities right on the floods? It says that it does not want to do any dredging. I was told by one of its officers that there is no point in dredging, because there is a high tide and the water is coming in, but it must understand that there is also a low tide and it can go out. I had an e-mail this morning from the Environment Agency about the Dawlish Warren, and as we know the railway will be closed for six weeks. The agency says that it will study the bird movement on the beach over the next year to see whether it can move any sand back there. Are we looking after birds before humans?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, the agencies are working together to ensure that measures such as dredging can proceed as rapidly as possible and meet the existing environmental requirements. The Environment Agency, Natural England and the local authorities are working together to expedite this.
Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that while what has been done so far in terms of pumping is a great improvement, in certain respects the situation is deteriorating significantly? I heard reports this morning that parts of Bridgwater are now liable to flooding at this time. The pledge from the Prime Minister on further action that will be taken is much appreciated. Meanwhile, is my noble friend aware that while it is not a matter for the military, I hear nothing but tributes for the work of the emergency authorities and services at the moment? Undoubtedly, if one looks at the weather forecast, there could be a serious and maybe continuing deteriorating situation.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I think that all noble Lords would share with me sympathy for the people of Somerset, who are experiencing a really dreadful time. Like my noble friend I pay tribute to the local authorities, the emergency services, and the fire and rescue services. All services assisting in this exercise are wonderful.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)
My Lords, I realise that the Minister will shortly make a Statement that, apart from anything else, will be about funding. I am told by colleagues and friends in Somerset that the people there are collecting money. They are looking to raise £1.4 million to deal with dredging and whatever is necessary. While we must of course take responsibility for many things that happen within our communities, the people of Somerset should not have to foot any of the bills in relation to flooding, and future flooding and defences. May I suggest that once the present crisis has passed, the Minister gives an undertaking that the Government will look at the funds allocated to Defra and how they are allocated within it? It seems to me that something is not quite right at the moment.
Lord De Mauley
I am sorry to hear that the noble Baroness thinks that. As she knows, I will be repeating a Statement which covers funding, among other things. I agree with her expression of sympathy for local residents. However, it is reasonable to say that there is a scheme of partnership funding and, certainly in other parts of England, it is working extremely well.
Lord Jenkin of Roding (Con)
My Lords, I do not think that my noble friend really gave a proper answer to the very relevant question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. There have been many complaints by the residents of the Somerset Levels that the Environment Agency seems to be prioritising birds over the needs of people. What is the Environment Agency’s answer to that charge, which seems to be very widely felt by the people in the area?
Lord De Mauley
What I can say to my noble friend, which will not entirely satisfy him, is that I referred earlier to an action plan that has been demanded by my right honourable friend. Dredging will form part of that plan but it will not provide the whole answer. The plan will have to consider a whole range of options for improving the area’s resilience in the long term.
The Countess of Mar (CB)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, mentioned animal welfare. We have all seen pictures on our television of cattle in a barn that seems to be on an island. Should the water get any higher, are there any contingency plans for evacuating those animals to higher ground?
Lord De Mauley
I, too, have seen the clips that the noble Countess is referring to. What is really important at this stage is that when people are asked to evacuate by the Environment Agency, the emergency services and the police, they must listen to the advice that is given. We are also facing some potential tragedies with our farms and animals on those farms. The county council and the emergency services are working as best they can but people must come first.
Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)
My Lords, the floodwaters are now beginning to affect people who were previously on the periphery, bringing increased demand on the scarce resources of the fire and rescue and Army services, as we have heard. Where drivers recklessly enter floodwaters by removing “Road Closed” barriers, will the Minister join me, a resident of Somerset, in supporting the emergency services in charging those thoughtless people who have to be rescued, sometimes more than once?
Lord De Mauley
What I can do is share with my noble friend her rap on the knuckles for those who do that and do not take the advice of the emergency services.
Business of the House
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Hill of Oareford
That the Questions for Short Debate in the names of Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb, Baroness Wheeler, Baroness Royall of Blaisdon and Lord Mawson set down for Wednesday 12 February shall each be limited to one hour.
Water Bill
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Whitty
“Consumer objective
In section 2(2B) of the Water Industry Act 1991, after “interests of” insert “current and future”.”
Lord Whitty (Lab)
My Lords, Amendment 109 is one of several before us today that are intended to tweak Ofwat’s responsibility into a more long-term aim on sustainability and resilience.
Ofwat is an economic regulator and currently its prime duty is to the interests of consumers—the consumer objective. But Ofwat has never been simply an economic regulator and since 2003—2005 in terms of implementation—it has had secondary duties relating to environmental and social sustainability. We will be having a debate shortly about whether those duties, too, should be primary duties.
Although historically it would be true to say that Ofwat has interpreted its economic regulator status somewhat narrowly, in practice it has always had a sustainability dimension—albeit at times that this may have been interpreted rather weakly. The five-yearly price review looks at financing long-term infrastructure as well as immediate business and householder water supply demands. In this Bill, there is yet more emphasis on social and environmental considerations. As the next but one debate will show, some of your Lordships want to take that further.
It is important to recognise that even the purely, or mainly, economic interest of the consumer—the need for water at affordable prices—is multifaceted and changes over different timeframes. As an economic regulator, Ofwat should act not only in the current interest of consumers, or the next-five-years’ interest, but in the long-term interest of both current consumers and future consumers. That duty fits more clearly with resilience and sustainability considerations or objectives. My amendment would make that clear. It would make it clear that Ofwat’s responsibility, as laid down simply in terms of consumers in the 1991 Act and repeated thereafter, should apply also to future consumers. We made a similar change regarding Ofgem in the Energy Act passed by the Labour Government in 2008. Ofgem has responsibility for future consumers. Some might argue that that has not made a dramatic difference to Ofgem’s deliberations, but at least that responsibility is clearly there. It has had the effect of holding it responsible for such longer-term issues.
In the water sector, we have five-yearly price reviews, six-year water catchment management plans and 25-year water resource management plans. They all require water undertakers to be concerned about the long term. However, it is also important that the consumer objective is seen in the long as well as the short term. That is what my amendment seeks to ensure. I beg to move.
Lord Redesdale (LD)
My Lords, I rise to support this amendment. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, has underestimated the effect of the change to the primary duties of Ofgem in the 2008 Act, which states that the duties for present and future customers are one of the underlying bases of its commitment to sustainability. The problem that it faces is that the limitations of the sustainable action that should be undertaken have not yet been tested. I had the fun of suggesting to Ofwat that we could take it to judicial review to suggest that it was not fulfilling this pledge. That had an enormous effect on Ofgem. Ofgem should be commended for the strides that have been taken over the past six years to move from an organisation that saw sustainability as something outside its remit to seeing it as something that is very much part of its remit. The value of this—in an amendment first moved by the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, to which I added my name—is such that it has changed the culture of Ofgem. It is rather unfortunate that Ofwat does not have the same duty and therefore the same drive to understand that it has that responsibility.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con)
My Lords, the purpose of Amendment 109 is to ensure that, in discharging its primary duty to protect consumers, Ofwat must take account of the needs of both current and future customers.
I agree that this is an essential objective. Water is an industry with unusually long planning and investment horizons. Our water resources management-planning processes require companies to plan, as a minimum, 25 years ahead and encourage them to plan over much longer timeframes. Although much of our current infrastructure will be expected to serve customers well for decades or even centuries to come, this is why we have introduced the new duty of resilience, which requires Ofwat to secure the long-term resilience of systems to the long-term pressures identified in the water White Paper, such as climate change, environmental pressures and population growth. It also requires Ofwat to ensure that the companies take action to meet the long-term needs of consumers by promoting appropriate long-term planning and investment; and by taking any and all relevant measures to manage water resources sustainably and reduce demand.
So let me assure the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, that I concur entirely with his aims. However, I consider his amendment to be unnecessary, because its effect would be to duplicate an identical existing provision in Section 2(5A) of the Water Industry Act 1991, which provides a definition of “consumers” for the purpose of the consumer duty. It clearly states that,
“‘consumers’ includes both existing and future consumers”.
I hope that this will satisfy the noble Lord and that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, for his support and agree with him that I was perhaps too dismissive in relation to the effect on Ofgem. Such a responsibility has had an effect on Ofgem and on the way in which its work, output and regulatory responsibilities are seen by the companies and consumers within the energy sector, so it has made a difference.
The arguments that the Minister has just put were very similar to those put initially by Energy Ministers in relation to the amendment to the 2008 Bill pursued by the noble Lords, Lord Oxburgh and Lord Redesdale. I cannot remember whether I openly supported them, but I certainly spoke to the then Minister—it was none other, I believe, than the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath—who agreed that the briefing that he had from his department was too negative and reflected the usual view of Whitehall that just because there were references to it in other documents you should not make it clear in the Bill. The Minister should perhaps go back to his own officials and say, “Well, yes, it may be that we can point to other documents, but people will look at the Bill”. They will look particularly at the front end of the Bill, if they get that far, which amends the 1991 Act—although that bit of it has not been amended yet by the Minister.
The role of future consumers is reflected very early on in the Bill in defining Ofwat’s responsibilities. The flexibility shown by Ministers in responding to the amendments to the 2008 Bill proposed by the noble Lords, Lord Oxburgh and Lord Redesdale, should be repeated here. Perhaps the Minister could agree to go back to his officials. I do not suppose that he will tell me that he is going to do that, so I will withdraw the amendment now and allow him time and grace to do that, because I would like to see this matter addressed on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Redesdale
Lord Redesdale
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 111 and 112. I want also to express support for Amendment 113, which is in this group. The purpose of the amendments is very simple: to put in the Bill a duty on Ofwat to further sustainable development. This has not been a short debate; it started a number of years ago and follows on from debates that we had in relation to Ofgem, about how you bring the regulator to understand that its duties as an economic regulator also encompass the environment and issues going forward into the future.
The wording of the previous amendment—I will have to check this—referred not just to present and future customers but to acting for the good of present and future customers. This comes to the heart of the problem that I see in the Bill. We have a greater understanding of the changes that have taken place in the environment. I believe that climate change is a fact: anybody standing up to their waist in water on the Somerset Levels at the moment would believe that we live in a situation where the climate is changing. Of course, the problem is that, at a time when there are floods, the idea of drought seems somehow very distant. However, it was not very long ago that we were actively discussing droughts.
My noble friend Lord Moynihan is sitting in his place. I remember a discussion we had in the Bishops’ Bar about water, because there was a real possibility that London would not have enough water and the Olympics were coming up. My noble friend Lord Moynihan said, “That’s fine; we have an agreement with Thames Water that we will get water whatever happens”. I am not sure that the Olympics would have been the fantastic success that they were—and I must commend him on the work he did on them—if people in the surrounding area were having to deal with massive water shortages because we were throwing water without reservation at the Olympics.
This comes to the heart of the issue: that there has to be a change in our view of water. Water has very much been seen as a resource that could be dealt with because it just comes out of the tap and you pay for as much as you want. With a population that is growing so rapidly, however, and with the constraints we are facing in our urban areas, we are going to face real issues about the amount of water that we can actually use. Therefore, putting in the Bill the word “sustainability” would change the very nature of how Ofwat would go about its duties. It should look not just at the economic issues, because looking just at the price is a very narrow definition.
The cost of those floods is going to be substantial indeed, and the cost of droughts to water companies is incredibly expensive. Noble Lords will remember the time when Yorkshire Water actually had to tanker drinking water by lorry. That is an incredible expense which would have to be borne by the consumer. We may have had 220% of our normal rainfall pattern, but last year we were looking at one of the wettest droughts in history. It did not change the fact that the water companies still had real problems with the aquifers and the amount of water available.
I realise that the Minister is going to say that the duties of resilience that the Government have put in the Bill deal with my concerns. My problem with the duties is that, while the Minister and the Defra team have worked incredibly hard to make sure that those resilience duties are encompassing, resilience has a different concept of dealing with an issue, while sustainability is talking about how we can look into the future to deal with those issues.
The Government will probably reject this amendment. I always live in absolute hope that the Government will see the error of their ways—as the Labour Government did in 2008 when they moved forward in changing Ofgem’s duties—and come forward to say, “My noble friend Lord Redesdale’s amendment is quite perfect in every way. We will accept it and he is to be commended”. That would, of course, be the end of it, but I have a feeling that they might reject it. Obviously, after 23 years and however many thousands of amendments I have put down that have been rejected out of hand, they might well come forward with that position. However, I think there is a discussion to be had. It is central to this Bill that we change how the regulators view this, not just in economic terms but realising that there must be a holistic approach and we have issues to deal with.
I have not met anybody with whom I have discussed this issue who has not turned around and said, “Surely, sustainability of the water supply has to be the starting point, because without water being sustainable, we will actually die”. You cannot do without water for very long. It is a ridiculous position to say that this is absurd rumour-mongering; we have a Statement after noon today on the floods. Within a year or two we will have Statements on the next drought that we face. These things come and go. Just because we are not in a drought at the moment does not mean that it will not happen. Therefore, while the Government might be fundamentally opposed to sustainability, a discussion looking at some of the aspects that could be added to the resilience clause would be very helpful.
The Earl of Selborne (Con)
My Lords, I am always impressed by the fervency with which my noble friend Lord Redesdale promotes the cause of sustainable development. Who could disagree with him that the sustainable use of water is clearly desirable? But does the more specific mention of sustainable development in the Bill help towards those causes or duplicate what is already there and in previous legislation? Does it give a much clearer direction to Ofwat? None of us would dispute that the major issue that must be addressed is long-term sustainable management of water resources. None of us disputes that the new resilience duties on Ofwat are extremely helpful. However, my noble friend Lord Redesdale did not remind us that this issue of whether the situations of Ofgem and Ofwat are totally parallel was looked at by the Gray review in 2011, the advice of which was to reject that. I accept that the Government rejected much other advice—from the Cave review and others—so that is not a roadblock. However, it must be recognised that there are already duties on Ofwat to promote sustainable development.
I am always a little nervous about those who find themselves supporting sustainable development. The concept has three pillars: the economic benefits, the societal benefits and the environmental benefits, all of which must be interconnected. The argument put forward by my noble friend Lord Redesdale was almost entirely based on the environmental and water efficiency benefits. Those are very worthy and very important, but I have also heard sustainable development prayed in aid of some pretty harsh economic messages. Clearly, that is not an appropriate way to interpret it. Is the Minister really sure that this is going to help to clarify Ofwat’s roles? I am not as convinced as my noble friend Lord Redesdale.
Lord Crickhowell (Con)
My Lords, at Second Reading I said I was green with envy that the environmental regulators will now have the Bill rather than the legislation that I had to deal with as chairman of the National Rivers Authority when I was in almost continual friendly conflict—I emphasise the word “friendly”—with Ian Byatt the economic regulator. It was so friendly that I have two cartoons at home, which were sent to me by a notable newspaper, showing both of us in the boxing ring. In the first, we are engaged in a vigorous fight, and the second shows us collapsing together exhausted at the end of the exchange. We have made huge progress since then, and the existing sustainable development duty, as I understand it, is now being given statutory authority in the Bill. The clear steer that has been provided by the Government is now being given statutory effect in the Bill. As I understand it, Ofwat now has sustainable development as a central objective. It will have to take account of that. It will have to carry out its functions in accordance with the strategic priorities and objectives identified by the Secretary of State.
So while I entirely understand and, indeed, sympathise with the arguments advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale—and perhaps it is because we have made such a huge advance from the position with which I had to deal when the economic regulator just did not think he had any obligations to provide for the environment and blocked almost every proposal that came from Europe or from us—I would like my noble friend to clarify what is to be gained or lost if we accept the proposition put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, over what we have already in the Bill. I find it very difficult to understand exactly what benefit we would gain. If there is nothing to be lost by including it, I would not be against including it. Against the background of a huge step forward having been taken, I am seeking from my noble friend clarification of the benefits and possible downsides of having this written into the Bill in the way proposed.
Baroness Parminter (LD)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Redesdale for raising this issue yet again. He has done so on numerous occasions, as have many other noble Lords. It is an important debate. It is quite clear that the Government are committed to sustainable development, but they believe that they do not need to elevate the primary duty of sustainable development for the regulator in the water industry because it has a secondary duty. What they are prepared to give is the new primary duty for resilience. I think we are going to carry on arguing about whether resilience delivers the environmental and social benefits that those of us who are concerned about sustainable development believe it does. The Government say it does and I am sure that the Minister will reiterate today that he believes that resilience will deliver the sustainable benefits that we believe are crucial for the regulator to deliver. There are others who believe that the resilience duty does not.
I would like to pick up on what my noble friend Lord Redesdale has said. We should try and move the debate on from arguing about what “sustainable development” and “resilience” mean to what we actually want to achieve. It is significant that my noble friend Lord Redesdale raised the issue of water efficiency. That is, bluntly, what we want to achieve—a more resilient future for our water industry which protects the scarce resources that we have, to the benefit of the environment and communities. I urge the Minister to reflect again between now and Report on a duty to promote water efficiency. I think that is a constructive way forward. There will be a difference between those of us who believe resilience is sufficient and those of us who would have liked to see a primary duty on the regulator. I do not think the Government are going to move, but I do think that a duty to look at the issue of water efficiency is a helpful way forward.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I have tabled an amendment in this group which attempts to deal in a slightly different way with exactly the same issue as the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale. Which is the closest approximation to perfection I am not entirely sure, and whether either of them is perfectible in the eyes of the Government, I am not entirely sure.
We do have an issue. The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, stated the current situation correctly. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, that, since 2003, Ofwat has had a sustainable development responsibility but it is a secondary objective. What these amendments attempt to do is to put it on a par with the economic objective for consumers. There is an economic, a social and an environmental dimension of sustainability which goes wider than that responsibility to consumers, now and in the future. The reason why relations and general coherence are better than the early days which the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, described, is that Ofwat has recognised that it is more than an economic regulator, and the Environment Agency has recognised that it has economic objectives as well as environmental objectives. Some of those have become a little controversial in recent days, in that, for example, flood defence priorities are determined largely in terms of economic effect. Both agencies now have all three—certainly environmental and economic objectives—which they routinely integrate within their operations. For that reason it is slightly odd that there is a differential between the objectives to consumers on the economic side and the objectives of sustainability on the other side, in terms of Ofwat’s requirements. The Government have made two attempts at convincing those of us who are interested in this subject through some very well written briefs. They were much more understandable than the Bill itself, or indeed the Explanatory Notes. By and large, I understood those briefs; they have nevertheless failed to convince me. They are arguing in terms that are now obsolete. They argue that the economic regulator is Ofwat and the environmental regulator is the EA. They both overlap and they need to operate a coherent approach to this in relation to sustainability.
The Government have moved significantly, as the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, was hinting, in stretching the definition of “resilience”. Resilience is a jolly good, robust term. We all approve of resilience, and long-term resilience is clearly a responsibility of Ofwat and indeed the EA, in relation to water resources and their delivery. It is not quite the same as sustainability. It is part of sustainability but it is not the totality. The noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, have both pointed to the energy efficiency dimension, which, let us be fair, has been lacking until at least very recently in some of Ofwat’s priorities, when it allows expenditure during the price review. It is that which worries people—that this issue will fall out.
The Minister told me the other day that resilience includes social resilience; it presumably therefore includes issues of affordability and access as well as environmental and social issues. That may be so but the normal meaning of “resilience” is protection and upgrading of the assets that you have, and which need a long-term permanence to protect them. The Government are in danger of stretching the term rather beyond what the Oxford English Dictionary would term as resilience.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I turn first to Amendments 110 to 112, in the name of my noble friend Lord Redesdale. I thank him for them, as I thank my noble friends Lord Selborne, Lord Crickhowell and Lady Parminter and the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for their comments on these amendments, which would extend the new duty of resilience so that it became a dual duty of resilience and sustainable development. Of course, as my noble friend knows well, Ofwat has had a stand-alone statutory duty to contribute to the achievement of sustainable development since 2005. The Government have reinforced the importance of this duty by providing clear statutory guidance that sustainable development is central to everything that Ofwat does and must be fully embedded throughout its regulatory decision-making. We also require an annual report from Ofwat on its contribution to sustainable development.
I know that my noble friend Lord Redesdale has a long-standing interest in this issue, and I am particularly grateful to him for his assiduousness in pursuing this. He wishes, understandably, to see meaningful changes to culture and practice in economic regulation in water. These changes are already taking place: by correcting the historic bias towards capital investment, for example, the current price review looks set to achieve a much more equitable balance between capital and operational solutions than has previously been the case. Similarly, Ofwat has been working with the industry and Infrastructure UK to halt the stop-start pattern of work, sometimes described as “cyclical investment”, that has been a cause for concern in this sector for many years. Again, we are seeing measurable changes in behaviour. Ofwat has recently given permission to water companies to bring forward £100 million of investment into 2014 to smooth the investment profile and benefit the wider water supply chain.
My noble friends Lord Redesdale and Lady Parminter suggested a water efficiency duty for Ofwat. My noble friend Lord Redesdale referred to the fact that the water companies do indeed have a water efficiency duty. Ofwat has an obligation to ensure that the companies can perform their functions.
Having said all that, we are not and must not be complacent. That is why we have created a new duty of resilience, designed to address the specific issues relating to the long-term pressures facing the water industry. The resilience duty encompasses all the activities that water companies can undertake to manage those pressures: from investing in the additional water storage, to tackling unsustainable abstraction, to focusing on environmental management across the catchment. This duty recognises the need to address the pressures caused by climate change and population growth, and to protect the natural environment on which our water sector relies.
In response to concerns raised by people such as my noble friend, I am delighted that we have already amended this duty in another place to be absolutely explicit about the need to manage water resources sustainably and to manage demand to alleviate pressures on those precious resources. I think that I can say that our amendments have been welcomed, for example by the coalition of environmental NGOs with a particular interest in this area, the Blueprint for Water, with which my noble friend has been closely involved. I met this coalition recently, and it expressed itself satisfied with what we had done in this regard. I therefore hope that I will be able to persuade my noble friend that, given the changes already made, further amendment of the kind he proposes is not required.
Turning to Amendment 113 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Whitty and Lord Grantchester, the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, has argued that elevating the existing sustainable development duty to primary status would help us to achieve a wide range of important objectives. Let me be quite clear: the Government support those objectives. As I said in the debate on the previous group, we want to see the regulatory regime for water recognise more clearly the needs of future, as well as current, consumers. We recognise the need for a strategic response to climate change, and we firmly believe that catchment management and demand management should form a mainstream part of water company activity.
The Government commissioned the Ofwat review to consider the case for elevating the sustainable development duty as proposed by the noble Lords. Having looked carefully at the arguments, David Gray concluded that he simply did not believe that the creation of a primary sustainable development duty would have the effect that its proponents were looking for. Despite the scepticism of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, therefore, while we—and I speak for the entire Government—remain fully committed to the principles of sustainable development, we do not believe that the amendment is the best way to achieve the objectives that the noble Lords wish to see. I also believe that we should recognise where changes have already begun to take place. I have already spoken about the way Ofwat’s new price review methodology, to which the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, referred, has addressed the industry’s perceived preference for capital investment, resulting in the companies bringing forward business plans that propose a much more even split between capital and operational expenditure, such as demand management activity.
During our particularly constructive Second Reading debate, a number of noble Lords highlighted the importance of taking a proportionate approach to changes to Ofwat’s duties. Of course, it must be right that we should occasionally amend the duties to ensure that they remain up to date with the Government’s policy priorities. This is what we have done in the case of the resilience duty, in order to reflect the core policy message of the water White Paper on the need to build the long-term resilience of the sector. We have amended this provision in another place to emphasise that this must include the sustainable management of water resources. However, I agree that we must demonstrate restraint in applying new duties to the regulator; and the changes that we have already proposed strike the appropriate balance. I must therefore ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Redesdale
My Lords, yet again I am not disappointed in my expectation that I will not get anything out of the Government. However, it seems almost a waste of a parliamentary process to have a White Paper which is full of water efficiency proposals and then to say, “We’ve had enough duties”, so that something which all noble Lords believe should be an objective is not moved forward on.
The noble Earl, Lord Selborne, and the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, raised very interesting points. I will make two points. First, the battles that the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, undertook, which were incredibly valuable, are not now taking place in the same way. Most groups agree that there has been a shift from the regulator against the balanced approach to economic environmental regulations. The noble Earl, Lord Selborne, raised the Gray review. I met Mr Gray to discuss this; one of his recommendations was that it is fine, because the Environment Agency leads on policy on this area, and therefore deals with this issue. Since the review, however, the Environment Agency has lost that ability, so it is out of kilter. Things have moved on so that the balance which the regulator has to take—and I understand the difficulties it faces between price, social cohesion and environment, which is tricky—has to be dealt with. However, the problem is that the regulator is seen as not meeting that objective.
The Minister talked about meeting with the NGOs. I believe he met with the RSPB and the WWF, but those are not all the NGOs that make up Blueprint for Water. I have discussed this with Blueprint for Water, and meeting with one, two or three NGOs out of a group of them is always slightly difficult. The whole group does not believe that, but those two NGOs will speak on their behalf. Therefore the Minister’s view that the Bill does not need amending to expand the role of resilience, even though it was amended in the other place, was unfortunate. It leaves no option when we come to the next stage but to try to force through sustainability as a solution to that problem. That may not be the simplest way of dealing with this issue, but, as was proved by Ofgem’s change in attitude, it does have an effect. Therefore it is rather unfortunate that the Minister has not agreed even to have discussions on this. Although I shall withdraw the amendment, I hope to bring it back at the next stage because this is a core issue.
This is not a political matter, which is why I very carefully did not ask the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, or any other noble Lords to put their names to this amendment. This is about whether we believe that water should be a sustainable resource and whether there is somehow a political lever. Most people in this country do not believe that water should be dealt with in a political context; it is about whether we have it or not and whether the regulator makes sure that we judiciously use this resource. If that means that I am a wishy-washy liberal, I sit on these Benches so I am quite happy to be described in those terms—and not as one of abuse. However, the Conservative Party talked about being the “greenest Government ever” and the coalition has moved forward on many of these green policies, so I find it incredible that we are bringing politics into this area. Therefore I hope that the Government will think again about a water efficiency duty. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Oxburgh
“( ) In support of the measures indicated in subsection (2DA), the Secretary of State shall be authorised to allow metering of water supplies both in areas of water stress and areas of potential water stress and additionally in areas where metering might generate other social benefits.”
Lord Oxburgh (CB)
My Lords, I add my thanks to the Minister for his courteous and helpful replies to questions raised at Second Reading, and in particular for the publication today of a new briefing note from his department about the bodies involved in the regulation of water, which I hope may go some way towards dispelling the concerns that were expressed in the previous discussion. I have not had time to digest it yet but look forward to reading it.
I have commented previously that my experience of water matters comes from a different jurisdiction, and that I expected to find some differences in this jurisdiction. That said, I had not expected the convoluted morass of uncodified legislation and regulation that surrounds the water supply in this country. My only comfort is that someone as experienced in water and legislative matters as the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, is as frustrated as I am.
Baroness Parminter
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, for his probing amendment. My Amendment 133, also in this group, seeks to amend the Water Industry Act 1991 to allow water companies to introduce compulsory metering, if supported by their customers.
Current legislation means that water companies are able to introduce domestic water meters on a compulsory basis only where the Secretary of State has determined that either the whole or part of their area is an area of serious water stress. My amendment would simply remove this barrier, allowing water businesses to do what they felt was in the best interests of their customers and increasingly scarce water resources.
We know that metering gives consumers greater control over their water consumption and so can improve affordability. It also helps water companies to target households using large amounts of water, provide water efficiency support and tackle leaks. On that point, perhaps I may say how welcome it is that this Bill transfers the responsibility for supply pipes from customers to water companies as this should help to drive down leakages. The case for smart metering, combined with advice on how to reduce water usage, and social tariffs that minimise affordability issues for disadvantaged heavy-use households, is strong, and has been well made by the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh. As he has said, the independent Walker review in 2009 recommended a widespread switchover, as, indeed, did the EFRA Committee in the other place.
We know now that some water companies denied pursuing this course of action by current legislation want it. The chief executive of Northumbrian Water, Heidi Mottram, supports it. The company knows that it has to plan its businesses for the future, when climate change and other constraints may well impact on areas not presently water stressed. Given the opportunities in this Bill to trade water, they want all the tools they can get to maximise the precious and increasingly valuable resource that water is.
This seems to be a reasonable amendment. All it would do is give companies the right to speak to their customers and manage their businesses to their benefit, with increasingly scarce water resources. It does not force, rather it enables water companies to consider the wider social and environmental benefits that metering brings.
Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB)
My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister and the department for the very helpful briefing notes we have been given, and for the opportunity to explore the Bill with him and his team. I fully endorse the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, on Amendment 133. I also firmly support the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh. I declare an interest in that I chair the management board of a rural estate that has an extraction licence.
At a time when the management of water is such a critical issue, I would go even further than this amendment. I think that a timetable should be set, by which time all consumers of water are charged for the volumes they use. These amendments mark a step towards that objective. I cannot understand the reluctance to expand the use of water meters. I know that there is an installation cost involved and that it will take time. The potential costs of installation could be fairly significant, as the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, pointed out, and of course meters have a limited life and will need to be replaced over time. However, these costs need to be set against the fact that metered customers use between 10% and 15% less water. Some will use more and some less, but the overall net benefit of a saving of 10% to 15% is massive.
The current policy of allowing companies to apply for the right to install water meters in areas of water stress has a certain logic. However, we have seen vividly over the past two years the dramatic impact of extreme weather events, whether they are the result of climate change or whatever. Flooding in winter and drought in summer could become much more frequent occurrences than has been the case historically, and water stress could become a reality well beyond the south and east of England. Even using the existing definition, we are likely to see a requirement for increased water use. Better, I would suggest, that we should extend the option of charging now in anticipation of the inevitable pressures on supplies, as mentioned earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale.
I come back to the issue of managing water. The well-known maxim, “If you can’t measure it, you can’t manage it”, seems to apply very precisely to the subject of water. As I have mentioned, I chair an estate. We are now well advanced in the process of installing meters in every household and enterprise across the entire estate. We know where every litre goes and we can charge appropriately. We are also able to monitor, remotely in the office, how much water is being used, where and by whom. It is very effective and much more efficient. The water industry needs to become much smarter in its management of water, and measuring is essential. I understand that Anglian Water now has around 90% of its customers metered, not through compliance but because it makes sound economic sense. Other companies, particularly in the freed-up market that we are trying to achieve through this Bill, need to be encouraged to do the same.
I would like to make one final point. It costs all of us £14 every year to cover the costs of unpaid water bills. It is a fact of life that if we do not appreciate the value of water, we are likely to be much more indiscriminate in our use of it. We should take the opportunity in this Bill to further establish the principle of charging for water use. The Walker review, which has already been mentioned twice, firmly endorsed this approach, and I hope that the Minister will give this proposal his serious consideration.
Earl Cathcart
My Lords, when preparing to speak to this amendment, I was going to support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, but having listened to the debate so far, I find myself supporting both amendments. I support in particular the part of the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, which states that,
“the Secretary of State shall be authorised to allow metering … in areas where metering might generate other social benefits”.
I was talking to somebody outside who, on asking what I was doing here and learning that I was involved in the Water Bill, said that they were on the board of a water company, which had been stopped by Ofwat when it tried to roll out meters across its area. I hope that I have this right—listening to the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, I think that I have—but the reason was that the company was not in an area of water stress. This seems unbelievable. If true, and I have no reason to doubt it, what gives Ofwat the right, or the power, to stop the rollout of meters when we all recognise the advantages that we have talked about, such as reducing demand, cutting costs for consumers, promoting fairness et cetera? If Ofwat has that power, what are the Government going to do to—I was going to use the word “curtail”, but let me use the word that the Minister used in a previous amendment—amend Ofwat’s powers in this regard?
The Earl of Selborne
My Lords, I am sure that the Minister will help my noble friend Lord Cathcart, but the short answer is that, unless a water company is operating in an area of water stress, it needs the Secretary of State’s permission to introduce a universal metering programme. As the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, has pointed out, that is an unhelpful provision. I am sure that we all agree that, if we could move faster on metering, we would see some of the long-term objectives of the Bill delivered much more quickly.
The White Paper, Water for Life, to which we referred so much at Second Reading, gave one every encouragement that the Government would be promoting universal metering. It points out how universal metering changes our attitude to water, as the noble Lord, Lord Curry, has reminded us. Metering helps you determine where the leaks are, particularly when they are within your property—you suddenly take a great deal of interest when it is going to be reflected in your bill as opposed to that of society as a whole. It allows you, without in any way raising the spectre of de-averaging, to introduce all sorts of innovative incentivisation such as summer schemes, where you pay more on a summer tariff than on a winter tariff, and water reduction devices.
All these measures can and have been achieved once universal metering programmes have been introduced. In the Southern Water area, because we are a water-stressed area, these measures have been introduced and the water industry is looking with a great deal of interest at a number of the lessons which have been learnt from this programme. It is clearly correct that water use goes down. That is the first and most important message, but as the probing amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, points out, there are many other societal benefits. It is a no-brainer and we need to go for it.
Earl Cathcart
I thank my noble friend for correcting my wrong conclusion that the power lies with Ofwat. I should probably change my question to ask what the Secretary of State is going to do to change his attitude in this regard.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, and my noble friend Lady Parminter for tabling these amendments, which give us an important opportunity to discuss the role of water meters. In many ways, the debate follows on from the comments of my noble friend on water efficiency in the context of sustainable water supplies, which is the context in which noble Lords have addressed these amendments.
I will take the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, on codification and simplification back to the department. I noted that, as he made those comments, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, with her wide experience was nodding behind him. Noble Lords are very good at holding the Government to account in this regard, and so they should.
I will start by laying out the Government’s position in relation to water meters. We are seeking to strike a careful balance. I note that noble Lords feel that we have not struck the balance quite correctly, but I will outline our position. We agree that meters provide a fair way to pay and we want companies to do more to promote metering to those who would benefit. However, we are also conscious that universal metering could lead to increased bills for some struggling customers, which is a point that the noble Lord, Lord Curry, referred to. I thank him for noting that, even if he then went on to say that he did not really agree with it. That is why we do not wish to impose a blanket approach to metering across the country.
This balance reflects the current legislation. Section 144A of the Water Industry Act 1991 ensures that any customer can request a meter from their water company. The company must then fit a meter, which it does free of charge. All the companies also allow their customers a cooling-off period of one year should they wish to revert to paying according to rateable value. As a result, there is a permissive position there. On the very rare occasions where fitting a meter would be disproportionately costly, the company offers an assessed charge, based on an assessment of the water actually used by that household.
However, Section 144B restricts the power of water companies to impose universal metering across all of their household customers, which is the issue that we are addressing here. There are circumstances, as noble Lords have noted, in which this restriction does not apply, which are set out in the Water Industry (Prescribed Conditions) Regulations 1999. For example, companies whose areas of appointment have been designated by the Secretary of State as areas of serious water stress—based on advice from the Environment Agency—may impose metering. They may also do so where the household has particularly high water use for a number of specified reasons, such as filling a swimming pool.
As my noble friend indicated, the purpose of her amendment is to add another reason to allow unrestricted metering. That would allow all water companies to meter all their customers, if they considered that this would enable them to meet their statutory duty to supply water or their statutory duty to promote the efficient use of water. About 41% of all homes already have a meter, and we expect this to rise to 50% by 2015. Anglian Water and South West Water already have 70% metering. A number of companies in areas of serious water stress are in the process of rolling out universal metering or have plans to do so. These include Southern Water, Thames Water, Sutton and East Surrey Water, Affinity Water and South East Water. Noble Lords have made a powerful case for why these developments are taking place.
However, we must recognise that the costs and benefits of metering vary from region to region. The evidence suggests that benefits on a scale that outweigh the costs of metering will only be found in areas where incentivising reduced water usage is of critical importance—that is to say, water-stressed areas, where universal metering is already a possibility. As I have noted, we are concerned that there are costs associated with implementing universal metering, which are funded through the bills of all customers in the region. We have always been clear that, with climate change and population growth, the case for universal metering may change, but it may do so at different times for different areas.
The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, would ensure that the Secretary of State has powers to allow metering of water supplies in areas that are currently or may become water stressed and where metering may generate other social benefits. I confirm that the Secretary of State already has these powers. He has the power to issue the prescribed conditions regulations, as I have already mentioned. For example, at present under the regulations, water companies in areas classified as seriously water stressed must evaluate whether compulsory metering is the most effective way to address their supply-demand balance alongside other options when preparing water resource management plans.
The Secretary of State recently asked the Environment Agency for updated advice on the designation of serious water stress. The new methodology defines serious water stress as occurring in areas where either the current household demand for water is a high proportion of the rainfall which is available to meet that demand or the future household demand for water is likely to be a high proportion of the rainfall available to meet that demand.
The Secretary of State already has the power to revise and reissue the prescribed conditions regulations—clearly, my noble friend Lord Selborne knew that—but I assure my noble friends Lord Cathcart and Lord Selborne that we hear what they say in this regard. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State would of course revise and reissue these regulations if he believed that allowing universal metering to be rolled out in a larger number of areas would lead to social benefits. We will keep these regulations under review. However, as I have said, I have already set out that at present we consider that the existing regulations strike the appropriate balance.
I heard with great interest what the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, said about smart meters and his other proposals. In relation to the installing of meters, restrictions on the power of companies to charge by meter do not extend to their power to fit a meter. Any company may do that and some, such as Anglian Water, have a policy of doing so for the reasons that the noble Lord laid out. We recognise fully the important role that water meters can play. I hope the fact that I have been able to spell out in more detail the Government’s position on this has assisted noble Lords and that they are willing to withdraw their amendment.
Lord Oxburgh
I thank all noble Lords who have participated in what has been a very useful discussion about metering. Can I just be clear in my understanding that it is the Government’s position that water companies already have the authority to install water meters anywhere they choose and that the only restriction is on charging?
Baroness Northover
As the noble Lord is aware, the emphasis at the moment is on water-stressed areas, which are more widely defined in the reissued regulations that I have just mentioned. I also mentioned that a customer can ask for a meter. I note that there is a bit of a gap between that position and the position for which noble Lords are arguing. If I have stated that incorrectly in any way, I will make sure that the noble Lord has a letter about it. It would be useful anyway if all this was laid out clearly to noble Lords who are interested in it, because it is obviously an area that concerns people and they want to have it clear in their minds.
Lord Oxburgh
That is extremely useful. If the Government are prepared to move at all on this area, it might be valuable for the Minister to hold a small meeting, as he has done most helpfully on various topics in recent weeks, to discuss whether the existing legislation covers the desirable possibilities or whether there is something that might meet the concerns that have been expressed here and would also be acceptable to the Government. We do not want—dare I say it—the water horse to bolt too soon.
Baroness Northover
We cannot be having that. On behalf of my noble friend Lord de Mauley, I can say that we would be happy to facilitate such a meeting.
Winter Floods
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con)
My Lords, with your Lordships’ permission, I will repeat a Statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. The Statement is as follows:
“Mr Speaker, I wish to make a Statement on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government on the action taken in light of the recent floods and extreme weather. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is unable to update the House today, but we wish him a speedy return to his usual robust health.
One of the defining characters of Britain is her weather. However, in recent months it has been particularly savage. Parts of the country have been subjected to flooding from the sea, rivers, surface water and groundwater. In December, we saw the highest surge on the east coast for 60 years. This January has been the wettest since George III was on the throne. We will continue to face severe weather well into next week.
I want to put on the record my utmost sympathy for those affected. Flooding has devastating effects on communities. I know that it has been especially difficult for those families who have been flooded for many weeks, and those who have been flooded on more than one occasion in recent months. I think we have all been struck by the stark images of the stranded residents of the Somerset Levels, and their brave resolve to continue their daily lives, be it by boat or tractor.
I should also like to pay tribute to the hard work of councils, the Environment Agency’s on-the-ground staff and our emergency services, who have supported communities 24 hours a day, literally through hell and high water. Yet Britain’s flood defences have protected more than 1.2 million properties since 5 December, and the Thames Barrier has protected £200 billion of property.
None the less, it is evident that those defences are taking a pounding. There is damage to transport infrastructure and sea defences, including the railway line at Dawlish, as well as to power networks. More than 5,000 properties have been flooded, including at least 40 in Somerset. There are currently two severe flood warnings in the West Country, 61 flood warnings and 223 flood alerts in place. COBRA has met regularly since 29 January and has responded to every local request for assistance. The Prime Minister will chair a further meeting of COBRA later today.
Following the Prime Minister’s statement yesterday, I can now report to the House the Government’s plans for further funding for flood and coastal erosion risk management. In the short term, I can announce that the Government will provide an additional £130 million for emergency repairs and maintenance: £30 million in the current year and £100 million next year. This will cover costs incurred during the current emergency response and recovery, as well as essential repairs to ensure that defences are maintained.
Emergency work on repairs started during December’s coastal surge. However, the full picture of the damage caused to flood defences has not yet emerged, and the weather continues to be savage. The Government will therefore carry out a rapid review of the additional work needed to restore our flood defences and maintain them in target condition.
In addition, I am publishing before the House today details of how my department is enhancing the terms of the Bellwin scheme. This helps local authorities in England meet the exceptional and unexpected costs associated with protecting lives and properties. The changes I am announcing today include: paying the Bellwin grant at 100% above threshold instead of the normal default 85%; allowing upper-tier authorities with responsibility for fire to claim on a comparable basis to stand-alone fire authorities; reducing Bellwin thresholds for all county councils and unitary authorities; and extending the eligible spending period until the end of March 2014.
No council has yet made a formal claim under the Bellwin scheme, so no council has lost out. Indeed, far more councils will now be eligible to claim. The enhanced scheme terms reflect the exceptional nature of the recent weather events and the challenges facing local authorities in their role as first responders. However, it is clear that the Bellwin scheme needs further reform—an opportunity that was missed under the previous Administration. We will be undertaking a full review of the Bellwin scheme in due course, while ensuring that councils continue to have the right incentives to stop flooding happening in the first place. I can also tell the House that immediately after this Statement, Ministers will be holding a teleconference with council leaders from across the West Country to discuss further flood recovery measures.
Of course, flood prevention is as important as flood recovery. The additional funding that we have outlined today will allow the Government’s programme of capital investment to continue, fulfilling our commitment to improving defences throughout England. We have already put in place investment plans to improve the protection of at least 465,000 households by the end of the decade.
In addition, today we are announcing 42 new flood defence schemes for 2014-15. Together with other projects beginning construction in 2014-15, these will protect more than 42,000 households. They include schemes in Salford, which will improve protection for more than 2,000 homes and businesses; in Clacton, where more than 3,000 homes are currently at risk; and in Willerby in the East Riding of Yorkshire, where more than 8,000 properties will be better protected. There are also smaller, but no less important, schemes in Lincoln, Stockton and Todmorden. We will work to defend both town and country. For the record, I do not agree with the comments of Lord Smith, who implied that there is a choice between the two.
Looking further forward, we have made an unprecedented long-term six-year commitment to record levels of capital investment in improving defences: £370 million in 2015-16, and then the same in real terms each year, rising to more than £400 million by the end of this decade. By the Autumn Statement, we will publish a six-year programme of work running right up to 2021, including a new long-term investment strategy on flood defence. This will provide an assessment of the future need for flood and coastal defence, taking account of the latest risk maps and economic analysis.
We should certainly look at how councils plan and mitigate flood risk. However, I note that the level of development on flood-risk areas is now at its lowest rate since modern records began, and 99% of planning applications for new homes in flood-risk areas are in line with expert advice.
After the dark skies clear, there will be lessons to learn: from the way we help local authorities, to the role of quangos and the need for local accountability, to the influence of manmade policies on dredging and tree planting on our landscape and rivers, and to the resilience of our nation as a whole in the 21st century.
The measures that the coalition Government have announced today provide an clear commitment to reducing the risks of flooding and coastal erosion. The additional funding means that, over this Parliament, this Government will be investing more than £3.1 billion, compared to £2.7 billion in the previous five years under the previous Labour Government. This is more than ever before. We will spend it well and we will spend it wisely.
We cannot control the weather. But we can and will provide the security that hard-working people deserve to allow them to get on with the daily lives. I commend this Statement to the House”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Lord Whitty (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement, particularly the announcement on Bellwin, which will be a great relief to the authorities and communities affected. I also thank him for his support for the people who are struggling to cope, in Somerset in particular, with the extraordinary and devastating events in that part of our country.
As noble Lords know, until two years ago I was a member of the board of the Environment Agency. I know the area; I live about 20 miles away. It is an extraordinarily complex system to manage. When an emergency occurs, it is the Environment Agency, the emergency services and local people who act together to try to minimise the effect, but it is a colossal effect and all our support should go out to the farms, families and villages that are in such serious difficulty.
Of course, as the noble Lord said, the problems are not just in Somerset. As it happens, while your Lordships were amusing yourselves with the European Union (Referendum) Bill last Friday, I was on the train to Plymouth, and a beautiful railway line it is—or was. It had been known that the line was vulnerable. There is now a serious problem as to how we restore communications with the far south-west of our country.
While it is important to recognise the efforts of the emergency services, it is also important to learn lessons. It appears that central government were taken a little by surprise on this occasion. It is an unusual event and therefore may not be in the normal contingency plans of central government. Nevertheless, the expectation of the population—certainly the expectation of the people of Somerset and other affected areas—was that the response would have been quicker than it was. In Questions, the noble Lord, Lord King, said that the level of pumping is the highest ever. It undoubtedly is. However, getting the pumps in was quite difficult, as the standing pumps were overwhelmed by the event. Whoever does it, the response must start a lot earlier than it did on this occasion.
Obviously there are issues behind this. The noble Lord has quoted some figures for expenditure on flood defences. The fact is that when the Government came in, for the first year they cut expenditure on flood defences—via the Environment Agency and in total—by £100 million. They have now restored some of that cut, but it has led to a hiatus. I would like the Minister to explain whether concentrating the resources of the Environment Agency on front-line activity at the moment—rightly so—has hit its ability to prioritise and to put in place a strategy for flood defences in the medium term. I think that there are serious concerns in that respect. Despite the Government’s claims, the resources available to the Environment Agency have not been made up by the funding from elsewhere—the £148 million to which the Government referred—as not all of it has been delivered, some of it is double-counted, and it is mainly from other public authorities. Therefore, there is an issue of public expenditure as well.
We need more priority given to flood defences of all sorts. By that I do not mean just pouring concrete, but catchment management. If anything, the Somerset Levels show very clearly how important catchment management is. It is not only a question of dredging; in my view, dredging will make relatively little impact, as the water must go somewhere. Dredging may be part of a solution, but it transfers the water somewhere else that may be more vulnerable, with more businesses and people involved. The catchment as a whole needs looking at, from the top of the hills, where there has been deforestation and inappropriate land use, right down through the streams into the sea. In an area that is below sea water, with a tidal river, these problems are particularly difficult. It requires a long-term plan and it is not yet entirely clear that we have a long-term plan.
I welcome the Bellwin scheme and the efforts that are now being made to deal with the immediate situation. However, the immediate situation includes a lot of people who are in ancillary distress. It would be helpful if the Minister could indicate, for example, when he expects the electricity supply to be restored to all of those who have been hit. When does he expect the restoration of the rail services west of Exeter beyond Dawlish? Six weeks sounds a bit optimistic, I must say. We must recognise that while we are rightly worried about the hundreds of people affected in the Somerset Levels, some 1.3 million people are cut off from their main means of communication to Plymouth and Cornwall—an area that is greatly lacking in communications in the first place. I hope that we can have some urgency on that. It may require more drastic changes to the railways in that area. There is serious damage in Dawlish itself, which is an emergency equal to that in Somerset.
This has happened before. After the 2007 floods, the previous Government commissioned a report from Sir Michael Pitt. He made a lot of recommendations, some of which have been implemented. However, the Government have stopped producing progress reports on half of them. I would like the Minister to indicate when we will go back to those recommendations or any modification of them. In particular, could he refer to the recommendations relating to reducing the risk of flooding and the 10 recommendations, not yet acted on, concerning being rescued and cared for during an emergency?
There is also a superstructure issue. We have had 20-odd meetings of COBRA. However, Sir Michael Pitt proposed a national resilience forum. Although it is not necessary to have a Cabinet committee telling the Prime Minister how to run the Government, a national resilience forum is a good idea. It was being discussed towards the end of the previous Government. We would like to see progress in relation to that.
In immediate terms, I return to the issue of the long-term plan for the Somerset Levels. A number of assertions have been made, or have reportedly been made. However, the area needs to know what its future is. This emergency has hit a relatively poor part of the country pretty hard. Changes may be needed. The area is also one of great beauty and of significant economic importance to the agricultural and tourist sectors in that area. We must know how quickly a clear, long-term plan can be put in place.
I thank the Minister for the Statement. As the Prime Minister is now in charge of these issues, I suspect that he could do without the interruption to the Water Bill. I was to some extent expecting the Leader of the House to take this Statement. Nevertheless I welcome the contribution of the Minister and would like to hear his answers.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his supportive comments, especially his sympathies for those who have suffered and the households and farms that have been flooded. As discussed in Questions, they have suffered a terrible experience. Like the noble Lord, I pay tribute to the emergency services, the Environment Agency and the Flood Forecasting Centre staff and to the leadership shown by the local authorities.
As alluded to by the noble Lord, there has been significant damage to sea and flood defences and road and rail infrastructure. Urgent repairs were made to critical coastal defences before the spring tides early this month. The Environment Agency is currently assessing the damage to flood defences. It may take a number of weeks to achieve a full assessment as water levels fall.
The noble Lord referred specifically to the Somerset Levels. As discussed in Questions, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has asked for an action plan to be developed within the next six weeks to look at different options as to how flood risk could be better managed sustainably on the levels and moors over the next 20 years. Dredging will form part of that plan but it will not provide the whole answer. The plan will look at a number of other options for improving the area’s resilience in the longer term.
The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, referred to lessons learnt. I agree with him very strongly about that. Those lessons will go quite wide. I also agree with him on the importance of a catchment management approach. The noble Lord referred to power shortages. My understanding is that of the 50,000 people who lost power the night before last, the substantial majority had power again yesterday. The energy companies are working hard on that. The noble Lord referred to transport. Immediate work is already underway, with that urgency that he described as so necessary. The noble Lord asked about the capability of the Environment Agency to continue to perform. The Secretary of State has been assured by the chief executive of the Environment Agency that he has every intention of protecting front-line services concerned with flooding. I have no reason to doubt his ability to do that.
I return to lessons learnt. The Minister for Government Policy is undertaking a review specifically to identify those lessons. There are a whole range of things that it will look at, and I know that he is looking to report to the Prime Minister as soon as he can—that will be weeks, not months.
The noble Lord referred to the Pitt review. The vast majority of its recommendations have been implemented. We are committed to implementing the remaining five by the end of this year. Some of the main aspects to come out of Pitt that we have implemented so far are the creation of the Flood Forecasting Centre, much lauded in recent weeks for its ability to warn us where the problems were coming, the publication of the National Flood Emergency Framework and the provision of funding to more than 100 specialist flood rescue teams. The Environment Agency has published its national strategy, which will help communities and all parties to work together to manage flood and coastal erosion risk.
Lord Oxburgh (CB)
Before the Minister sits down, might I ask him whether he would be willing to include in the list of those whom he has thanked for their contribution in understanding and managing the present difficulties the Met Office? We may not enjoy the information that it gives us, but it is certainly useful.
Lord De Mauley
That was an outrageous omission of mine, my Lords, and I absolutely do that.
Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)
Having listened to the statement made from the opposition Front Bench in another place, perhaps I may say how much I preferred the response of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and his constructive approach to this very serious issue. He has the advantage of actually knowing something about the subject.
The most worrying sentence in this Statement is:
“We will continue to face severe weather well into next week”.
And no one knows what it is going to be like after that. Anyone who is familiar with the current state of the Somerset Levels will know how that water is spreading and how the situation is deteriorating in certain areas as the water moves around. I am all in favour of sensible, constructive meetings of COBRA but it is the co-ordination on the ground that is extremely important. I appreciate the Prime Minister’s personal efforts and I know that the Prime Minister and the Government are now fully focused on this, but I hope that the sympathy will not go when the floods go down. In certain respects, there could be a serious health problem. A number of septic tanks and parts of the sewerage system are not working and problems may arise with rotting vegetation. I hope that the concentration of the Government will not end when the floods disappear but will remain totally focused on what will clearly be a very serious situation for some time to come.
Lord De Mauley
I absolutely endorse my noble friend’s point about the importance of local co-ordination on the ground. My impression is that that is making considerable progress and I congratulate those who are involved.
My noble friend’s reference to ongoing attention—to Somerset, for example—I endorse as well. I must say that we should not lose sight of the other places that have suffered from flooding during this spate of weather. I shall not name any of them because I will forget to include some, but there are many places around the country which have suffered.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)
My Lords, I reinforce what my noble friend Lord Whitty said about the importance to Devon and Cornwall of the reinstatement of the main railway line that has been washed away at Dawlish. I declare an interest as a member of the First Great Western stakeholder board. Businesses are quoted this morning as saying that every day that the line is closed is costing them £30 million, so any delay beyond six weeks for its reinstatement will have a devastating effect on those economies—it is not just Cornwall; it is not just Plymouth; it is the whole of Torbay as well. I urge the Government to make sure that Network Rail is given every possible resource it needs to reinstate the line.
Looking a little further ahead, will the Minister consider the need for a possible new alignment that takes the line at the coast inland? It is something that Isambard Kingdom Brunel looked at but felt was not necessary. He thought that his wall would survive for ever, but, as we have seen with the weather of recent days, that might not be the case. Another possibility would be the reopening of the old Southern Railway line to Plymouth, which would at least give an alternative route through from Exeter.
Lord De Mauley
I agree with the noble Lord about the particular railway line of which he spoke, which is perhaps one of the most exciting and beautiful of our railway lines. I know of his great interest in railways. I can assure him that the line is getting and will continue to get urgent attention. His comments drag me rather beyond my knowledge and responsibilities in terms of specifics about railways, but I will take his comments back.
Lord May of Oxford (CB)
My Lords, perhaps I may add a footnote to this discussion, which I unfortunately missed because, for the past hour, I have been over at the BBC discussing the floods on “Daily Politics”. I expressed myself uninhibitedly amazed that anyone would ever have thought that it was a good idea to stop dredging on Sedgemoor, but then I learnt—this is a superb example of how good intentions can go awry—that this was a conservation measure in order deliberately to return it to marsh land in the interests of wildlife. It underlines the complexity of some of the issues that we have to deal with.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, it is a shame that the noble Lord was not here at Questions because we addressed that specific point. I said then that the agencies are working together to ensure that measures such as dredging can proceed. That is likely to be part of the outcome of the action plan which my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has demanded. We are looking for that to proceed as rapidly as possible. It is fair to say, however, that it should do so while meeting our environmental requirements, which are set by among others the EU.
Baroness Parminter (LD)
My Lords, perhaps I may pick up on the point about the Dawlish line being likely to be closed for six weeks. Further stretches are at risk from strong waves, meaning that other areas are likely to suffer—that is obviously not just local people but businesses. I thank my noble friend for the comments he has made today, but my understanding is that no research has ever been done on the significant impact of flooding on businesses, often small businesses, that make up the backbone of rural economies and the disproportionate effect of that on rural economies, particularly in places like Somerset. There is no research that shows how flooding affects the range of supply and demand chains in an area and identifies what impact this has on the overall community resilience of an area. After the devastation of this winter’s flooding and given that we are facing more in the next few years, do the Government have any plans to commission research into and to investigate the impact of flooding on the economic resilience of local communities in order to identify any further necessary policy interventions or resources?
Lord De Mauley
I thank my noble friend for that question. She suggests that there has been no research on the effects of flooding on businesses. I will take that matter away. I am pretty sure that it will be covered in the action plan that my right honourable friend is looking at, but I shall look into it.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)
My Lords, I wonder whether I might ask the Minister the question that I was hoping to ask him at Question Time, which bears directly on the observations of the noble Lord, Lord King of Bridgwater. Has any assessment yet been made of the possible public health impact or implications of land being under water for sustained periods, particularly where that land contains, for example, domestic sewerage infrastructure and where animal waste is also involved? Who, if anyone, is undertaking that assessment?
Lord De Mauley
Yes, my Lords. Somerset County Council is working with Wessex Water to ensure that proper water sampling is carried out and to co-ordinate any mitigation measures that are needed. Public Health England has issued clear advice on how to avoid any risk to health. People in the affected areas are urged to follow that advice.
Lord Crickhowell (Con)
My Lords, as the former chairman of the National Rivers Authority—thankful that I no longer have various responsibilities in these circumstances—may I join in the expressions of sympathy for those who have suffered the horrors of being flooded and in the tributes to the Environment Agency’s ground staff and the other emergency services who have been doing sterling work? I welcome the capital commitments that have been made and the proposed changes to the Bellwin scheme.
I would like to take up two particular points that have arisen. The first is on the local accountability question. In my Second Reading speech on the Water Bill, I said that for the NRA, the cornerstone of our activities was catchment management and the existence of our regional advisory boards, chaired by a member of the board and involving all the locally involved organisations. I have a feeling that that arrangement, which was so crucial to our successes, was discontinued at some time. Can the Minister assure me that a similar arrangement will be put in place? On the subject of dredging, may I suggest that regular dredging year by year of the lower reaches of rivers is likely to be much more cost-effective than one-off occasional action to try to relieve pinch points that should never have been allowed to develop in the first place?
Lord De Mauley
First, I reassure my noble friend that proper, ongoing local co-ordination is vital and is being, and will continue to be, undertaken. On his comments on dredging, I hear what he says and am conscious that he is quite right that it is not good enough to do it once: you have to do this process continually. I agree with him on that.
Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB)
I support the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and by the noble Baroness earlier on, on the impact of flooding on the farmers whose land has been submerged under water for weeks on end. This is the second year in succession that many of those farmers have suffered this effect. May I take the opportunity—I am sure the whole House will support me in saying this—to thank His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales for going down on Tuesday? His visit was very well received by the residents and farmers of the Somerset Levels. I have to declare an interest: I am a trustee of the Prince’s Countryside Fund and His Royal Highness announced that £50,000 would be made available to help the farmers of the Somerset Levels. His Grace the Duke of Westminster also made a contribution, so we are very grateful for that financial support.
The funds will be channelled through the agricultural charities for the immediate costs incurred by farmers as a consequence of flooding, whether for animal feed or whatever. However, it will not restore the pastures and crops that have been submerged under water. The longer-term impact of this is not well understood. My noble friend may well have views on that. May I ask him to think longer-term about how those farmers might be assisted in maintaining their livelihoods following this dramatic impact on the land that is under water?
Lord De Mauley
First, I echo the noble Lord’s thanks to the Prince of Wales for his visit and financial contribution, and for the contribution of the Duke of Westminster, which are extremely welcome. We want to ensure that farmers are able to deal with challenges such as bad weather, to grow their businesses, create jobs and compete effectively in the marketplace. It has been very helpful that, in response to recent events, our colleagues at the Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency have agreed to a derogation to move cattle in Somerset without a pre-movement test. That may sound like a small thing, but it is important. I am aware, as the noble Lord said, that a number of charities are supporting struggling farmers more generally. I can also say to him that we have not heard from those charities that they have yet experienced a huge increase in demand, but I take on board his comments, which were extremely important.
Lord Skelmersdale (Con)
My Lords, earlier today, I appeared to criticise the Government for making the situation worse when I asked my supplementary question. I used the word, “exacerbate” when I should, of course, have said, “alleviate”—as this Statement shows very clearly. Whether that counts as a personal apology, I am not entirely sure. However, much of the Somerset Levels is classified as a site of special scientific interest. The problem has been made worse not only, as my noble friend has just said, by not constantly dredging the main rivers, but by farmers being allowed to change their farming practices by, for example, not dredging their individual rhynes. Would my noble friend take this point into the department’s thinking on the long-term ways of improving the situation, not least with the Environment Agency?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I certainly will. It is an interesting and important point.
Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)
My Lords, I welcome this Statement and will try not to repeat what others have said. In particular, I welcome the additional resources for emergency repairs. As the Minister has indicated, the full extent of the damage will not be known until the water subsides. The announcement on the review of the Bellwin scheme is encouraging and I look forward to hearing the detail on this. The Minister has referred to the partnerships working on the ground, and I am proud of the work and intervention in respect of this of South Somerset District Council, of which I am a member. It will take a lot more hard work and co-operation in partnership before we are through this current process. As with previous speakers, I am concerned for the future livelihoods of those living on the Somerset Levels, particularly the farmers. The debate about how to take this forward has to be started soon. Overall, however, I welcome the steps in the right direction made by the Government, but there is still some way to go.
Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)
My Lords, I would like to raise a constitutional point relating to Wales in the context of these storms. Some weeks ago, a number of noble Lords, including myself, were told by the noble Baroness, the Minister, that essentially, responsibility for these matters had been devolved to the Welsh Assembly. I appreciate that responsibility for marine structures, coastal defences and so on has no doubt been transferred. On the other hand, under the 20 headings that I included in the schedules to the Government of Wales Act 2006, there is great vagueness. There is nothing at all to say whether responsibility for storm damage or for substantial havoc caused by nature has ever been transferred. I would be most grateful if the Government would publish some sort of reasoned opinion in relation to the matter. With regard to the Bellwin proposals, I remember 30 years ago, soon after I came to this House, how sterling they were. Is Wales eligible to profit from such a fund—and, if so, to what extent?
Lord De Mauley
The noble Lord has a habit of bowling fast constitutional balls. Of course, coastal regions right across the United Kingdom, including in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, have been affected by flooding and severe weather conditions. Responsibility for flood management is, as he suspects, devolved to the Welsh Assembly, the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly. It is for those bodies and their agencies to determine how best to allocate resources to support affected areas.
Baroness Browning (Con)
I declare an interest as a former resident of beautiful Dawlish; the railway line from Exeter to the outskirts of Dawlish went through the constituency that I was very honoured to represent. I am therefore very familiar with the problems and quite horrified to see the size of the waves—with which, again, I am very familiar. May I reinforce to my noble friend the request of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, to look at alternative railway access to the far south-west? May I also urge my noble friend to encourage the Department for Transport to urgently reassess the need for more dualling of roads into the far south-west—the A30 immediately comes to mind— and to make sure that the economies of, particularly, Somerset, Devon and Cornwall are not impaired in this way if this is the sort of weather pattern we are to expect in the future?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I have got the message and will take it back to the Department for Transport.
Lord Grade of Yarmouth (Con)
My Lords, after the water subsides, I suspect that the next headache will be an insurance nightmare. One has not heard in the considerations of the lessons learnt whether the Government will try to understand the insurance implications for farmers, householders and businesses. One would imagine that, as a result of the now frequent flooding, many of those properties and businesses will be absolutely uninsurable—or insurable only at a cost that is entirely prohibitive. I hope that, once the catastrophe has been managed, the insurance implications going forward will be considered.
Lord De Mauley
My noble friend is ever topical, because we will debate the issue of flood insurance, specifically in the context of the Water Bill, on Tuesday. He will know that we have been working very hard for many months with the Association of British Insurers on this very issue.
NHS: Seven-day Working
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Ribeiro
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the implications of introducing seven-day working in the National Health Service.
Lord Ribeiro (Con)
My Lords, in opening this debate I must first record my interests in the register and my chairmanship of the Independent Reconfiguration Panel. I support the introduction of a seven-day service, promoted by Sir Bruce Keogh, medical director of the NHS, but I believe that it should focus on emergency and urgent care, which is currently poorly provided at weekends. The move to a seven-day service has the support of the Medical Royal Colleges, NHS Confederation, NHS Employers and the BMA, but why is it necessary?
When I was a consultant, I often provided an emergency service at weekends, initially every four weekends and then every eight as staffing numbers increased. That was a requirement to go into the hospital to deal with emergencies when they occurred, rather than a commitment to be there all day as I would be during the week. What has changed is, of course, the increasing number of elderly patients with comorbidities requiring care and the findings of the Francis report that patients felt vulnerable at weekends when,
“staff absences and shortages are more noticeable”.
A report commissioned by NHS London in 2011 found that increasing cover by consultants in acute medical and surgical units at weekends could prevent 500 deaths a year in London. Further evidence in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine in 2012, analysing 14.2 million admissions in NHS hospitals in England in 2009-10, found that patients admitted on Sundays were 16% more likely to die than those admitted on Wednesdays, and 11% more likely to die if admitted on Saturdays. The Dr Foster Hospital Guide in 2012 reported similar findings, confirming that a higher level of senior medical staff at the weekend is associated with lower mortality. The case for change in respect of emergency admissions has been made and now something must be done.
Despite a reduction of acute beds by a third in the past 25 years, the number of unplanned admissions of those over 65 continues to rise, with some 2 million admissions a year. Length of stay is also important: for those under the age of 65, the average length of stay is three days but for over 65s it rises to nine days and for those over 85 it is 11 days. To prevent unplanned admissions we need more consultants because consultants make the decisions. They are able to decide whether patients can be sent home or need to be admitted. Junior doctors often lack the confidence to do that. We also need the infrastructure and systems in general practice and social care to allow those patients to be treated nearer their home. That must also be available at weekends.
My noble friend the Minister will no doubt point out that “seven-day working”, as this debate is titled, is not the same as a seven-day service. I agree but the public need to be clear what sort of service they receive. When we promise them the same service at weekends as in the week, they will assume that that implies seven-day working. That means that there will need to be a massive expansion of consultant numbers. I have recently heard the figure of 1,800 quoted as likely. Do we actually have enough qualified trainees to fill those posts—and trainees of the right calibre? Over what timescale do we expect to have this expansion? If the service is to be both for elective procedures, including routine operations, and emergencies, then a bigger challenge is funding and the staffing of theatres, X-ray rooms, and pathology and scientific laboratories—all of which must be supplied if we are to provide the same service at weekends as we do during the week.
We should not promise what we cannot deliver. The seven days a week forum report commissioned by Sir Bruce Keogh, which the Library kindly sent round as a briefing document for those involved in this debate, identifies 10 clinical standards that are evidence based. Three of them incorporate standards developed by the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges, whose committee on this was chaired by the president of the Royal College of Surgeons—so I have a slight inside track on what was developed. The standards cover the patient’s experience through to the transfer to the community. They focus mainly on the management of emergency admissions. Of the 10 standards, eight revolve around hospital care. They recognise that a one-size-fits-all solution cannot be applied in this situation and that what will work best is usually based around local solutions. But there is an emphasis on emergency care that does match the rhetoric of providing care for all at the weekend.
The NHS Confederation and NHS Employers recognised that we already work seven days a week, but it is how we do that work that is in question. Changing to a seven-day service could be liberating for many staff. I heard one lady consultant on southern TV last week say how much she enjoyed working at weekends. I think she worked at Southampton General. One reason she enjoyed working at weekends was that it provided a better work-life balance for her family. We should grasp the opportunity that this offers to use our workforce more flexibly. With the increasing feminisation of the workforce, remembering that more than 60% of our medical school intake is female, it is important that we take families, children and women into account when we design our workforce of the future. It is also important that many women with children would find working at weekends helpful because it would mean that their partners were there to look after the family and home while they were away working. I am not against that but will put forward some arguments as to why we should deal with the emergency problems first.
We also need to be much more creative about how we utilise some of our older, senior staff. I say that advisedly as I retired at 64 and was doing emergency admissions until the age of 60. How I could have done that between 60 and 64 I do not know; I feel for my colleagues who still do. Between the ages of 55 and 60, you could take most senior doctors off the emergency on-call rota and have them there providing mentorship for more junior consultant colleagues, and perhaps undertaking elective work at weekends if that could be managed.
Much could be done to achieve seven-day care but I am daunted by the cost of implementing both an emergency and elective service at weekends. The seven-day services improvement programme, which I believe was due to start in January this year, is focused in its first year on emergency care and the provision of enhanced recovery pathways and diagnostic and support services. The programme freely admits that its big challenge is how to actually develop those diagnostic and support services. I wonder where it will focus its attention in the next two years of the three-year programme it has set out. In addition, what are the likely costs of staffing a seven-day service in both primary and secondary care? The figures of £3 billion, from the Department of Health, and £32 billion, from the BMA, have been quoted as the cost of introducing seven-day care right across the piece in primary, secondary and social care.
From my experience of service reconfiguration, the public want high-quality care, but are wary of change, particularly if it affects their local hospital. We have seen the benefits of such service change, particularly here in London. Stroke services, acute heart condition services and trauma care concentrated in fewer centres have already delivered improved outcomes, so we have the evidence. A new project in Northumbria to produce a specialist emergency care hospital, which is due to open in 2015 at a cost of £200 million, is an example of a local solution to rural problems. Local solutions driven by clinicians and co-designed with the public can lead to centres of excellence.
It is important that we focus our attention on delivering an emergency service. If we base this on the 22 trauma centre networks that were designed by Profession Keith Willett and Sir Bruce Keogh, the success of the centres will trickle down to the spoke hospitals which are linked to them. By aiming for this low-hanging fruit, we can demonstrate success to the public, and the effectiveness can be translated to elective care. However, I do not think we are yet in a position where we can provide care at the weekend in the way we go shopping at Tesco and Sainsbury’s. Please do not forget the European working time directive, which applies to junior doctors and equally to consultants, because the SiMAP and Jaeger agreements are still there and they will require compensatory rest for consultants who work at weekends.
I have identified barriers to change. I am not a naysayer, but I have concerns about staff and cost implications, particularly with an austerity budget designed to reduce our deficit, GP contracts—will they be asked to work nights and weekends again?—the ability of social services to cope with seven-day working and whether payment by results can be adjusted to take account of the increased emergency work. I support the proposals for a seven-day service, but I have misgivings about implementation and the costs involved. I hope the Minister will be able to reassure me.
Baroness Jolly (LD)
My Lords, I remind noble Lords that this is a time-limited debate and, with the exception of the Minister, speeches are restricted to four minutes. When four is on the clock, time is up.
Lord Warner (Lab)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, on securing this platform to enable us to discuss this very important issue. I declare my interest as an adviser to Synlab, a German pathology company.
There is not much to disagree about in principle on the idea of seven-day working in healthcare with such a large number of emergency admissions to hospital. The evidence is pretty clear that we need the most senior doctors working later in the day and at weekends in those places dealing with emergency conditions. The noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, told us the scale of those admissions each year. The interesting thing is that the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges has made clear that patients with these conditions need on-site consultant inspection at least once every 24 hours. Those admitted on Friday may not be seen by a consultant until Monday. That is clearly a dangerous practice. I would be very interested to know whether the Minister accepts that in hospitals which have A&E departments they would expect there to be seven-days-a-week consultant cover to enable a person to be seen by an on-site consultant at least once every 24 hours. Is that now government policy or just an aspiration set by the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges?
We know all about the difficult practical issues of implementing this kind of policy. We have also heard from the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, the different financial estimates for doing this. It is very interesting that the BMA’s estimate of £32 billion for seven-day working overall is roughly the same size as NHS England’s estimate of a £30 billion funding gap by the end of this decade on present plans for the NHS. There is some symmetry and agreement around about £30 billion; it is just a question of whether it applies to the gap or the funding increase you would need for this kind of policy.
I do not disagree with anything the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, said, but I want to focus on the point he made about money. Before I do that, I pay tribute to the work he has been doing in his capacity as chairman of the Independent Reconfiguration Panel. The trouble with that work is that he has to wait for what is served up to him. He is not allowed to take the initiative. We know many of the failing health economies. The NHS Trust Development Authority was set up to deal with many of these bodies. We have a situation where we are thinking of dreaming up a highly desirable change in patients’ access to consultant cover on urgent admission to hospital when we know full well that we have a very large number of almost insolvent trusts carrying out A&E admissions day in, day out. They are propped up by handouts from other bits of the NHS. This is the reality that the NHS faces daily. I suggest that we can implement this policy only if we grasp the nettle of reconfiguring services rapidly and consolidate more of these specialist services on a single site.
Baroness Brinton (LD)
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, for securing this key debate. It is shocking that your chances of receiving prompt treatment and, indeed, of surviving are worse if you are admitted to hospital over a weekend or on a bank holiday. The 2011 Freemantle report provided the evidence that more than 500 deaths could be prevented in London each year purely by increasing consultant cover in acute medical and surgical units.
The good news is that there are early adopters and pathfinders who are demonstrating that it can be done. I hope your Lordships’ House will indulge me with a personal anecdote. I was very unwell over Christmas and had the good fortune to be admitted to the acute admissions unit at Watford General Hospital. The unit was set up in 2009 to help reduce pressures on A&E and the main hospital. The £12 million 120-bed unit shares the building with A&E but all referrals have to come from a GP and the maximum length of stay is 72 hours, although stays are usually much shorter. Consultants are on duty 24 hours a day and see patients as they are admitted so care is tailored very quickly. The AAU and A&E share their own MRI scanner, X-ray and ultrasound unit, a catheterisation unit for angioplasty, blood testing facilities and pharmacy. My experience of the care was outstanding: tests, scans, monitoring and observation and treatment were all prompt, and I felt that the entire clinical team worked smoothly as one unit. I know that I am not alone in my praise for the unit.
Seventy-two hours seems to be about the right length of time. I have seen reports of other acute units where the time is only 36 hours. Recently a Leeds hospital reported that there is still pressure on the main wards from this shorter timescale.
The briefing from the Royal College of Surgeons states:
“Seven day services may also reduce pressure and stress on doctors. For example, consultants can spend much of Monday morning dealing with weekend admissions that are waiting for review or discharge”.
However, this does not affect just doctors: radiologists and many other clinical support staff are similarly affected by the Monday morning catch-up that impacts on an already busy week. Can the Minister assure the House that the NHS will provide robust modelling and review structures using the examples of early adopters to ensure that seven-day working is introduced carefully and effectively?
There needs to be a realistic timetable and a full understanding of the workforce issues—not just consultants or contracts and payments, but also appropriate staffing levels right through the NHS. It therefore seems sensible to move ahead on urgent and emergency care first and then reassess for wider clinical services, rather than rushing ahead with elective care at the start.
Many people are concerned about the costs of adopting a seven-day working system. With careful modelling—and with units such as the one I described earlier—in addition to inevitable new costs, we will find that there are some cost savings. Overall, the biggest change will be in culture and attitude. The NHS heart is willing. We all need to use our heads and energy to make it happen.
Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, for asking this question. I am sure all noble Lords speaking today want to see improvements in the NHS.
A few years ago, I attended an open day at the Harrogate hospital trust. When we were shown the MRI scanner and other equipment, one of my group asked, “Would it not be desirable and beneficial to keep everything running seven days a week?”. The radiologist said, rather forlornly, “There are only one and a half of us”. The public would be very pleased to see a seven-day service in the NHS, but this would need more trained staff right through the system, and a culture of co-operation and communication. There should be an eradication of bullying and fear among managers and all staff. There should be a duty of candour and transparency, and dedicated teams looking after patients. Patients need continuity of care. They are so dismayed when their operations are cancelled at the last minute. Is there too much pressure on our existing National Health Service? General practice is facing a growing crisis as it struggles to provide the care needed for an increasing patient population.
I agree with the forum’s ambitions but, first, it is surely important to improve the safety of patients and the training of staff, so that they become experts in diagnosis and treatment. So much money is wasted on compensation and there is so much heartbreak for the nearest and dearest—and for the patients, if they live—when something goes wrong. Before the much hoped for seven-day working there should be improvements for what we already have in the NHS. For example, hospital A&E costs for stand-in doctors have increased by millions over three years. Blood donors are turned away by clinics because of late-running sessions and sick staff. If they feel their gift is not respected and they are not well treated, they will not turn up next time. I have an interest, as blood transfusions saved my life. Volunteers play an important part in the NHS, and they should be appreciated. There are huge variations in how GP surgeries provide a service to patients across the country.
I for one appreciate our health service, but we need to keep it safe and sustainable, and it has to grow with the increasing demands. Carrots are better than sticks. How can we keep our good doctors in a competitive world? How can we make nurses put patients first, giving them TLC? Without commitment and enthusiasm, it will be difficult to keep the NHS in full sail for seven days a week. Does the Minister agree that safety of patients at weekends should be addressed now?
Lord Parekh (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, for securing this debate and introducing it so well. A case for seven-day working in the NHS seems so overwhelming that I am surprised that it has taken us so long to raise it. I can think of half a dozen powerful reasons why seven-day working is an absolute must. As the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, has said, it reduces mortality, which can rise by as much as 16% for patients admitted over the weekend. In law—although I have not had the time to get this tested—it would amount to indirect discrimination to suggest that people who are admitted over the weekend receive less satisfactory treatment and invite death earlier than in other cases. That would constitute a case of indirect discrimination.
If we have seven-day working, it will amount to better use of diagnostic machines, laboratory equipment and operating theatres. It will also decrease the patient’s length of stay in hospital and thereby not only reduce pressure on hospitals but increase GDP because people will come out of hospital earlier and be able to work more days. The amount of patient satisfaction would also be considerable. For all these reasons, a case for seven-day working seems compelling.
I add an extra reason to assist the Minister in his negotiations with doctors who might resist this, but it is not the comparison with retail traders opening on a Sunday, as that is not a good analogy. We ask that our hospitals be open over the weekends, and that consultants and others be available, because these are issues of human lives. Where human lives are concerned, you cannot make a distinction between a weekend and a weekday.
Given that the case is so overwhelming, what are the objections? I hear three objections from many doctor friends who I am privileged to know. First, I am told it will impose extra burdens on consultants and senior clinical staff. The answer to that is, first, it need not be so because the workload can be properly distributed. Secondly, the same doctors who talk about the extra burden have absolutely no difficulty attending private clinics and private hospitals where they perform operations over the weekend. That is an argument of self-interest, which does not wash with me.
The second argument is that it will increase the cost. It could, and we have had figures bandied about. To that, my answer is: first, if you have better rota and shift planning, you need not employ a large number of extra consultants or senior clinical staff. You will also reduce the patient’s length of stay in hospital, which would mean a considerable saving. Hospitals under the same trust should be able to share clinical staff, so it does not necessarily mean each hospital having its own extra consultant. Equipment could be more effectively shared—that would mean a considerable saving—and, of course, there will be a reduction in the current payments for unusual hours that are paid to doctors. For all these reasons, I think that the objections based on cost can be addressed.
There is a third objection that many of my friends have made, which is that it could be hard on women. The noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, said that many women consultants and others might welcome working over the weekend; but there are also many others who would find it difficult to work over the weekend and might resent being compelled to work in exactly the same way as their male colleagues would. There again, talking to consultant friends, I am told there is an answer: better rota and shift planning so that women need not necessarily be involved over the weekend. I suggest that there are enough reasons to go ahead, full steam, with this project.
Baroness Barker (LD)
My Lords, in 2003, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, the Minister and I were deep in the depths of the delayed discharges Bill. During our discussions, the journal Nursing Older People published clear evidence that if older people were discharged on a Friday, they were more likely to be readmitted to an acute hospital, or to die.
Let us flick forward to July 2013, when Sir Bruce Keogh concluded, in his review of 14 Trusts for NHS England, that,
“performance … was much worse … for their emergency patients, with admissions at the weekend and at night particularly problematic. General medicine, critical care and geriatric medicine were treatment areas with higher than expected mortality rates”.
In its 2013 report, Dr Foster stated that the mortality rate for patients who had routine surgery is 24% higher if the operation is performed just before the weekend and that the number of patients who return to hospital after being admitted at the weekend is 3.9% higher, so 10 years on it is the same story.
A lot has happened in that decade. Technology has improved and kit is marvellous these days. Data have become much more copious and available. Patients have become better informed and empowered. The pressure on resources was changed out of all recognition during the Labour Government, when lots more resources went into the NHS, but the rising tide of demand continued on ahead. It is the same story over a decade. One thing that we can conclude is that this is not about resources. That is not the answer to these issues.
This is therefore an interesting question for the Government to think about now that we are in a period of austerity. How do we address what we know to be long-standing and systemic issues? First, in order to have a seven-day-a-week NHS, we have to have better integrated social care and improved access to low-level social support. We know that 50% of the users of the NHS in future will be older people with long-term comorbidities, particularly dementia. The bulk of their care will not come from consultants; it will come from their families and friends. What is important is supporting their families and friends to look after them in the community.
Secondly, GPs have a critical role in determining access to the NHS. I think we can by now conclude that the GP contract negotiated by the previous Government was not the roaring success that it was made out to be at the time. GPs have a critical role in managing care pathways and access and we now need to go back and say to them, particularly since their response to Sir Bruce Keogh was simply to talk about resources, that there needs to be a change in their role in managing that point between all-out A&E access and long-term care.
Finally, we need to be absolutely clear with the British public that having a full seven-days-a-week service is not going to be realised in the short term. The general public will have to understand which parts of the health service they can expect to be available seven days a week and which they should not. The British public are very proud of the NHS and are, by and large, responsible. They want to make the best and most sparing use of it they can. Let us not deceive or mislead them into being wasteful and thinking that they are going to have everything all the time.
Viscount Bridgeman (Con)
My Lords, the whole House will be grateful to my noble friend Lord Ribeiro for securing this debate. He produced devastating statistics from Sir Bruce Keogh and NHS London but this debate surely cannot be complete without revisiting the working time directive. I have one or two further telling facts from my noble friend’s own royal college. For example, 86% of surgical trainees working to a working time directive-compliant rota have seen their work-life balance deteriorate. A survey published by Pulse of 500 junior doctors on the impact of the working time directive reported that 65% of respondents felt that it is having a detrimental effect on their training and 75% felt that there is now insufficient cover on the wards.
Further analysis by the royal college says that the number of hours available to surgical trainees for training and experience in compliance with the working time directive has been significantly reduced. Every month, 280,000 surgical training hours are lost to that directive and the doctors beginning their surgical training today will have 3,000 fewer hours to learn throughout their training, which is the equivalent of 128 whole days. This is but a snapshot of the telling statistics showing the handicap which the working time directive is imposing not only on patients today but on the precious investment in young medical talent for the future.
My message to my noble friend the Minister is to ask what pressure can be brought on the Commission to improve the working of the directive, which, let us not forget, has at its core wholly admirable aims. The Commission does listen. The United Kingdom, led by the Department of Health, has over the past two years taken the lead in inducing the Commission to modify the free movement directive which has hitherto prohibited the regulatory bodies in healthcare, such as the GMC and the Nursing and Midwifery Council, from testing health workers from the EEA for English-language competence before registration, potentially releasing healthcare workers on to the market with less than adequate English. That is a disaster for patient safety waiting to happen. The Commission has now listened and taken measures to modify the directive to ensure that language competency is established before a certificate of fitness to practise can be issued.
I use that as an example where the issue was patient safety. Let us be in no doubt that in the case we are debating it is simply that again, whether it is in the inadequate training of doctors to which I referred or the lack of continuity which was provided under the old structure of the firm, whose demise was one of the principal casualties of the directive. The introduction of the shift system also plays against continuity. Can my noble friend give an assurance that his department will build on his earlier successes with the Commission and give a high priority to securing a modification to the working time directive?
I finish with an instance which I assure your Lordships is not simply hearsay. I know of doctors who need to get work experience in another country within the European Union. Both the time and money available are limited and, to get the best value out of their secondments, they have quite simply chosen to go to member states where the working time directive is openly disregarded. By the way, these are not newer accession states but old, western members of the Union with highly sophisticated health services. This country has a history of abiding by the law and I leave my noble friend the Minister, and all your Lordships, to draw their own conclusions.
Baroness Manzoor (LD)
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, for securing this debate. As other noble Lords have stated, the variation in outcomes and patient experience for patients admitted as emergencies at the weekend is evidenced in higher readmission rates, higher mortality rates, poorer patient experience and an increased length of hospital stays, while the availability of diagnostics such as imaging can be 40% lower. These facts are, on the whole, not in dispute so it is not my intention to mention the many excellent surveys and reports which evidence them. However, it would be remiss of me not to restate the importance of the report commissioned by NHS London in 2011, which concluded that increasing consultant cover in acute medical and surgical units at the weekends could prevent more than 500 deaths a year in London alone. The evidence clearly demonstrates the need for the NHS to take action.
Like other noble Lords, I applaud Sir Bruce Keogh’s report and its conclusions, except that it is rather disappointing that it took nearly a year to produce. I would like to hear what the Government are doing to ensure that the pace of change is rapid and that the report’s implementation programme is given greater priority. Quite rightly, there is much emphasis by the Government and NHS England on clinical outcomes and reducing inequalities in care, but NHS England will not deliver on its mandate should the current status of health services prevail at weekends.
While the £3.8 billion Better Care Fund which the Government have made available, pooled with local government, is also welcome, NHS England has yet to demonstrate how clinical commissioning groups are addressing the need for services at weekends and what support CCGs are giving to local authorities which support patients being discharged from hospitals and prevent unnecessary admission to hospitals, particularly as CCGs spend three-quarters of the £98 billion NHS budget. Indeed, I find it difficult to understand how the regulator, the Care Quality Commission, could have judged any hospital to be outstanding when such inequalities in care and service have existed in the NHS and been evidenced as such for at least the past 12 years. Perhaps the Minister can reassure the House that regulators will not be awarding outstanding status until a hospital is deemed to have improved its record of safety and patient care for patients at the weekend.
NHS England should also demonstrate how, as the commissioner of primary services, it is ensuring that it addresses and improves the variable quality offered by general practitioners. Although an optimist, I remain concerned by the slow pace of change. On the current evidence, NHS England cannot deliver on its mandate, and Public Health England will fail to close the inequality gap in social provision for some of the most vulnerable in our society, such as the elderly and people who need access to mental health services at the weekend. This is mainly because there is an absence or limited availability of consistent support services such as diagnostics, and a lack of community and primary care services which, if available, could prevent some unnecessary admissions and support the timely discharge of patients. It remains, as has been said, difficult to get routine blood tests, X-rays, MRI scans, pharmacy, physiotherapy and social services at weekends. Of course, I have already mentioned the variable out-of-hours primary care.
Sir Bruce is quite right when he advocates a whole-system approach to improve the current, unacceptable standards being offered in the NHS at the weekends. However, although I do not support yet another reorganisation of the NHS, with tight finance restraints, the Government may need to think further about simplifying the current and complex NHS system. They will also need to consider how budgets are shared and pooled between organisations, including with local authorities, and who will lead on this. The NHS is a great institution, and it is our duty to make it fit for the 21st century.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, for instituting this debate. It is clear that all noble Lords who have spoken are broadly in favour of moving to what we are calling a seven-day week for the NHS. However, there is a range of views about whether it is deliverable. I hope that the noble Earl will be able to address some of the substantive points that have been put to him.
The argument for seven-day working to its full extent is of course persuasive. Noble Lords have talked about the high mortality rate at weekends, the variable staffing levels, the absence of senior decision-makers and a lack of consistent specialist services, such as diagnostics. It is also clear that capital is not used by the NHS to the extent that one would desire if very expensive machines are left idle for quite a part of the week.
However, there are three major questions about whether this is workable which I will put to the noble Earl. First, is the rest of the health and social care system able to match the seven-day working of the health service? It seems that the major pressure problem facing the NHS is frail, older people who probably should not have been admitted, but have been because either nursing homes or social care provision was not sufficient. Once they are admitted to hospital, it often becomes difficult to enable them to be discharged quickly because of an absence of community infrastructure. If we are going to have full seven-day working within acute hospitals, it is essential that GPs and social and community services also embrace seven-day working.
I do not know to what extent the Bruce Keogh work has really reflected that. It will have to be tackled. We cannot carry on any longer with GPs who are inaccessible and unable to do what is necessary to help people who have been discharged into the community. The same goes for social services, which still seem to shut down over bank holidays and the Christmas period. This simply is not going to work unless the whole of the system is working to the same tune.
Secondly, there are mixed views on resources. My noble friend Lord Parekh thought that the cost of this could be contained. I must say that I rather share the view of my noble friend Lord Warner and the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, that this is in fact going to be massively expensive. The noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, talked about the necessary massive expansion of consultants. That must be true because we do not want seven-day working that involves staffing up at the weekends and reducing staffing during the week. I suspect that mortality rates would go up during the week because you would not have the necessary cover. I am afraid that some of the plans of acute hospitals are indeed to squeeze staffing during the week. That is a crazy way to go about it. I am very concerned that, in time, we will see a rise in mortality rates during the week. I do not think that this has been fully considered by those who say that we can do this simply by a better ordering of the way in which things are done. I refer the noble Earl to the Institute of Fiscal Studies report published today, about the resource challenges facing the NHS, and ask him how this is to be afforded.
Finally, does the noble Earl think that, as a result, the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, will be even more engaged in dealing with reconfiguration issues? Does the noble Earl agree that the implications of this are that we have to have radical reconfiguration of services? Will Ministers support that? Equally, will they tell Monitor and the competition authorities to back off from instituting competition procedures if this reconfiguration is necessary to make this work?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con)
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Ribeiro on securing a debate on this important issue. I know that as a former consultant surgeon and former president of the Royal College of Surgeons this is a subject in which he takes a great deal of interest. I also take this opportunity to pay tribute to the work done on seven-day services by NHS England, the NHS Services Seven Days a Week forum, the Academy of Royal Medical Colleges and the Royal College of Surgeons, among others.
The historical five-day service model offered in many NHS hospitals no longer meets justifiable patient and public expectations of a safe, efficient, effective and responsive service. I very much echo the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, in that context. Over the past 10 years, a growing body of national and international evidence has emerged that links poor outcomes, including a higher risk of death, to patients admitted to hospital at the weekend, around the world. It is impractical and inefficient to continue to operate a five-day approach when our illnesses and conditions do not limit themselves to office hours. Patients are entitled to receive the same standard of care regardless of the day of the week.
As the largest and most comprehensive health service in the world, the NHS is well positioned to solve the issue of poorer outcomes and reduced levels of service provision at the weekend. That is why NHS England has set out a vision for the NHS which is of a service more closely organised around the lives of the public it serves. To develop this vision, NHS England established the NHS Services Seven Days a Week forum in February last year to consider how NHS services can be improved to provide a more responsive and patient-centred service across the seven-day week.
The forum’s work has been met with nothing but positive feedback and support from the public and patients, the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges and the British Medical Association, among other organisations. The immediate focus for improvement activity will be addressing the need for high-quality urgent and emergency care services, seven days a week. NHS England is also looking to make similar improvements across primary and community health services and social care, and the forum will report in autumn this year, setting out proposals for the creation of a fully integrated service. NHS England’s ambition is for seven-day services to be fully implemented in England by the end of 2016-17.
I recognise that we cannot talk about the idea of seven-day services without giving full consideration to questions of staffing and finance; many noble Lords have raised those issues. NHS providers and their commissioners already face difficult choices when deciding where to invest their resources in order to maximise the outcomes for patients and value for taxpayers. Early indications are that seven-day services have the potential to be part of the solution. However, more information is needed. NHS England is therefore conducting research which will provide a helpful indication of the likely costs providers and commissioners face when considering how to redesign their services to provide comprehensive seven-day care. In addition, to answer my noble friend Lady Brinton, NHS England intends to commission financial and system modelling and analysis of the implications of its strategy for achieving seven-day service provision in the NHS.
My noble friend Lord Ribeiro rightly highlighted the workforce implications of having a consistent, high-quality service seven days a week. The department, alongside NHS England, Health Education England, NHS Employers and a number of strategic partners, is considering that very issue. Its analysis is considering issues such as junior doctors feeling unsupported during weekend working and the resulting need to ensure that education contracts include appropriate seven-day senior supervision; and numbers of diagnostic and scientific staff, with NHS England intending to undertake a thorough assessment of the different roles needed in diagnostic and scientific services to support an extended service.
Of course, many commissioners and providers will need support to address the challenges presented by seven-day services. To that end, NHS Improving Quality has just introduced a new, large-scale transformation change programme, set up in collaboration with all healthcare commissioners and providers, to support the spread of seven-day services over a three-year period.
I realise that the move towards seven-day care will not be easy, but there are encouraging examples of pioneering NHS organisations that have moved to make healthcare services more accessible seven days a week to avoid compromising safety and patient experience. For example, Sheffield Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust has adopted seven-day service provision, improving patient flow of frail and older people through the emergency pathway. Bed occupancy for emergency care for older patients has now reduced by more than 60 beds. Other examples in my brief include Salisbury District Hospital and the Lancashire Intermediate Support Team, both of which have produced impressive results.
We know that across the country, more hospitals, primary and community care organisations and social care services are working together to break the link between poorer outcomes for patients and the reduced level of service provision at the weekend. We also know that patients and the public want us to act now to make seven-day services a reality in all parts of our NHS.
A number of noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Ribeiro and the noble Lords, Lord Parekh and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, raised the issue of cost. Interestingly, there is already evidence that seven-day services can be implemented in a way that does not increase the overall cost of healthcare. The average cost of implementation at trusts pioneering the service was 1.5% to 2% of their total income. Costs vary according to local service models, but research shows that they can be reduced by reconfiguring services and by trusts working collaboratively. Seven-day services at the front end—that is to say, A&E departments—could also pay for themselves by reducing admissions and lengths of stay.
Seven-day services would not work under a one size fits all model—a point made by my noble friend Lord Ribeiro. Local solutions need to be found and pioneering NHS providers and commissioners are already working to develop them.
In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, on the issue of safety at weekends, we expect all NHS services to be able to meet patients’ needs as they arise. To do this, trusts should adopt the clinical standards developed by the seven-day services forum to drive up clinical outcomes and improve patient experience at weekends.
My noble friend Lady Manzoor referred to the CQC. The CQC and the Chief Inspector of Hospitals are considering how implementation of the clinical standards could best be assessed by the CQC and how this might be reflected in its forthcoming ratings and the judgments it makes when it inspects.
As I said, workforce is a major issue. The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, was right to raise that point. There are over 12,200 more clinical staff in the NHS than there were before the election, thanks to the money we have invested in the service and to the reforms we have carried out. Nevertheless, there is an issue about motivating staff to work at weekends, as the noble Baroness rightly said. We understand that contractual levers and incentives are required to drive change. NHS England and a number of key strategic partners are already looking into this. However, in many cases seven-day services have reportedly already had a positive impact on individuals’ work-life balance, offering greater certainty in planning ahead and flexibility in time off. In addition, the medical royal colleges are all in support of seven-day services. Building seven-day service provision into recruitment, job planning and appraisal processes will help create a sense of common purpose to underpin organisational delivery.
A number of noble Lords, including my noble friends Lord Ribeiro and Lady Barker, referred to the role of GPs. To address that important role in the mix of services the NHS provides, we recently announced the setting up of a £50 million fund to support innovative GP practices in improving services, and in particular access for their patients, including seven-day week access and evening opening hours and the testing of a variety of services including Skype, e-mail and phone consultations.
However, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, emphasised—as did my noble friend Lady Barker—community services and social care are absolutely integral to this as well, particularly when it comes to the care of the frail elderly. Social care and the NHS are priorities for the Government and we know that there is interdependency between the two systems. However, providing more resources is not enough on its own. We have provided more resources from the Department of Health but we need to do more. NHS England is currently working with the Local Government Association to create a health and social care system that is truly seamless so that people receive the right care at the right time and in the right place. The Seven Days a Week forum will report on that work in the autumn, setting out proposals for a fully integrated service.
The Better Care Fund is a key enabler for change, as my noble friend Lady Manzoor pointed out. As part of the process for accessing funding, clinical commissioning groups and local authorities will have to demonstrate, as part of agreed local plans, that they are addressing a number of national conditions, including seven-day services in health and social care.
The noble Lord, Lord Warner, asked whether the Government would expect A&E departments to have weekend consultant cover. We recognise that the consultant contract is a key enabler of seven-day services. In October last year the Government mandated NHS Employers to enter into formal negotiations with the BMA to deliver joint proposals for consultant contract reform, including changes that will support seven-day services.
My noble friend Lord Bridgeman focused on the working time directive. He may know that we asked the president of the Royal College of Surgeons, Professor Norman Williams, to chair an independent task force to look at the implementation of the working time directive, and the impact of the directive on the delivery of patient care and the training of the next generation of doctors. The independent review will provide its report during March 2014. Professor Williams is working with stakeholders from the Royal College of Surgeons, NHS organisations, the BMA, National Voices and others, and we ourselves are working with the task force to ensure that it has appropriate legal and analytical support.
There is a compelling case for healthcare services to be accessible seven days a week. To echo the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, if we were starting the NHS from scratch I very much doubt whether we would design a part-time system. We would surely create a seven-day service to better meet patients’ needs. Seven-day service provision is about equitable access, care and treatment, regardless of the day of the week. It is a cause for some pride that the NHS will be the global pioneer in providing equality of access to consistent, high-quality healthcare seven days a week.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, before the noble Earl sits down, I was remiss in not declaring my interests at the start as chair of a foundation trust, president of GS1 and a consultant trainer with Cumberlege Connections. I know that we all know that, but I have to do it every time.
Water Bill
(10 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Moynihan
“Duty to facilitate competition
(1) Section 37 of the Water Industry Act 1991 (general duty to maintain water supply system etc.) is amended as follows.
(2) In the heading, after “system” insert “and facilitate competition”.
(3) After subsection (1) insert—
“(1A) It shall be the duty of every water undertaker—
(a) to fulfil its duties under Chapter 2A of Part 3 in a way which does not prevent, restrict or distort competition in the provision of water services; and(b) without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1A)(a), to ensure that no undue preference is shown (including for itself) and that there is no undue discrimination in the relationship between its monopoly business, its competitive business and a water supply licensee.(1B) For the purposes of subsection (1A) above—
(a) an undertaker’s monopoly business comprises all of the activities carried on by it within the scope of its appointment, with the exception of its competitive business;(b) an undertaker’s competitive business comprises those activities carried on by it within the scope of its appointment, but which, in the absence of such an appointment, could only be carried on by it with the benefit of a water supply licence and the business of any associated water supply licensee; and(c) a water supply licence is a licence granted under section 17A, water supply licensee shall be construed accordingly and associated shall have the meaning set out in paragraph 11 of Schedule 2A.”(4) In subsection (2) for “duty” there is inserted “duties”.”
Lord Moynihan (Con)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 115, I wish to speak also to Amendments 116, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144 and 145.
This set of amendments brings us back to the central issue of creating through this legislation a clear, unequivocal market framework for competition. The amendments would provide a duty to facilitate competition. All participants must have access to clear and accessible prices, clearly defined and common levels of service and standard terms and conditions. As I have mentioned before to your Lordships, the Bill is based on the premise that parties within the retail market should conclude bilateral relationships subject to industry codes that will be developed. This could require some negotiation between market participants on service and price. It is this element of negotiation which I believe, if not addressed by us, will lead to the inefficient operation of the marketplace with unintended consequences.
The Bill is about regulated access and should not be blurred by a heavy dose of negotiated access. Allowing parties to negotiate could open the door for a current incumbent to discriminate against new retailers by offering them less preferable terms or poorer service levels or simply by being slow to respond to requests. This would limit the effectiveness of the market and increase costs for new entrants and customers. In my view, the relatively minor clarifications that I propose could usefully be made to the Bill. These are designed to ensure that the market can be opened in a timely way and that, once open, customers will enjoy benefits that are the same as, or greater than, for example, those which have been achieved in Scotland.
Amendments 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143 and 144 would ensure that Ofwat’s implementation licence modification powers are fit for purpose. In Scotland, the Water Industry Commission had a power of direction to ensure that activities that needed to be done were completed in time for market opening. For example, WICS was able to say to Business Stream, Scottish Water’s retail subsidiary, that the market would open irrespective of whether it was ready and that its customers would be reallocated to new entrants. I propose that Ofwat’s licence modification powers are made available for at least three years after Royal Assent to ensure that the entire period up to market opening is covered. I also suggest that they are clarified and strengthened, including by referring explicitly to market opening, as proposed in the group of amendments I have mentioned.
Amendment 145 would allow Ofwat to make common licence amendments in a single process. The potential retail market in England is much bigger than in Scotland. There will be more wholesalers and more incumbent retailers. The difference principally relates to the handling of the interests of the incumbent companies. In Scotland, the relevant people now have significant experience of dealing with a large number of—there are 12—active retailers. In their view, it would be sensible to ensure that Ofwat can make licence amendments that cover all companies if that is, in its judgment, the best approach. That has certainly been helpful in Scotland. However, there may also be circumstances where a more targeted approach to an individual company or a small group of companies would be better.
Amendments 115 and 116 would place a clear duty of non-discrimination on the wholesale businesses of the incumbent water suppliers. Clause 23 obligations to ensure no undue preference or discrimination would be carefully extended by these amendments. It seems to me that profit maximisation could be put forward as a reason to discriminate between suppliers. It may be worth looking at placing duties to help facilitate competition directly on incumbent businesses, making them also subject to a duty to ensure no undue preference or discrimination. This would make it easier to enforce competition law provisions, including the prohibition on margin squeeze. That would help ensure that new entrants are generally able to count on there being a level playing field.
As I had the good fortune to be the Minister responsible for taking the original privatisation Bill through the Commons, along with my noble friend Lord Howard of Lympne, I anticipate that the Minister will respond to my amendments by saying that Ofwat already has a duty to promote competition and therefore we do not need another duty. He may also say that Ofwat is the relevant competition authority for the sector and therefore we need to ensure under another piece of legislation that there is no anti-competitive behaviour in the sector, so we do not need another duty. He may have in mind the Competition Act and the Enterprise Act in that regard.
The Earl of Selborne (Con)
My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Moynihan. Although he described these proposals as modest, they are important in complementing the provisions in the Bill facilitating competition. After all, the Bill introduces a completely new concept of competition at both the wholesale and retail levels. We are right to be extremely suspicious of the attitude that companies will take to try to use their undoubted advantages as incumbents in order to secure their markets, which, at the moment, are unchallenged.
If noble Lords think that I am a bit paranoid about this, let me take an example from outside the water sector, in the field of communications. This morning, on a previous group of amendments, we prayed in aid Ofgem; I should also like to pray in aid Ofcom. Take the example of BT and broadband, which is an area that involves public funds but may perhaps not be an exact analogy with the water sector. BT is able to use public funds in order, as the Public Accounts Committee in another place has demonstrated, to see off new entrants. In a number of cases, a lot of work has been done to bring broadband to remote communities, but there has been a lack of transparency from incumbents until the last possible moment. They come into those areas—surprise, surprise—with a directly competitive service, having identified where the competition is going to come from. Of course, all other areas remain neglected until they attract competition, too. In other words, it is possible, in any number of insidious ways, for an incumbent to retain a competitive advantage. The company can sometimes just be bad at providing the data and not answering communications.
These amendments place a duty on an undertaker to facilitate competition and they strengthen Ofwat’s powers. In ways which we cannot entirely predict, but which we can assume will be used, companies will be rightly keen to retain their share of the market. We should assume that anything done to strengthen the ability of new entrants to operate without discrimination against them must be welcome. Without in any way casting aspersions on the existing undertakers, we should recognise that anything that can be done to demonstrate that they are required to facilitate competition would be well within the spirit of the Bill and complement the existing provisions. I cannot see how these proposals could do anything but help.
Lord Crickhowell (Con)
I rise to make a very brief comment, prompted by the remarks of my noble friend on the likely possibility of incumbents seeking to defend their positions. I seem to recall that, in reply to my noble friend Lord Moynihan in our previous debate, the Minister told us that the water companies had said that they were against what was proposed. I remember thinking, like Mandy Rice-Davies, “Well, they would, wouldn’t they?”. It was just an indication of the kind of attitude that one is likely to get from incumbents—perfectly naturally—in trying to defend their existing position.
Lord Whitty (Lab)
My Lords, last week’s de facto alliance between the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and me extends in part to these amendments, in that it would be sensible for the Government to contemplate positively some of the latter amendments in the group, particularly those that inhibit the degree to which incumbents can effectively square the market against new entrants. However, my agreement does not extend all the way, I am afraid, particularly to the earlier amendments in the group. We must remember that the Bill is not quite as radical as all that, and, if it were to be a bit more radical, a lot of other things should follow.
We are, actually, introducing competition immediately only in a narrow part of the market. It is an important part, and there may be subsequent lessons to be learnt, but it is going a bit far to say that Ofwat’s central duty should be extended to promote competition. It already has a duty to look after the interests of consumers, where appropriate through competition, and we are making sense of that in a way that has not been done in the past 20-plus years of privatisation. However, we are not in any way legislating in this Bill for residential properties to be subjected to competition. Some noble Lords may think that we should be doing so, and it may be that I could be persuaded of that, but the fact is that we are not doing so here. If we were, that would raise a whole range of other protections and issues that would have to be considered.
It is also true—the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, referred to upstream competition—that a number of hesitations were expressed around the Committee last week about triggering the upstream aspect to this, particularly in relation to abstraction reform occurring first. I would not want the noble Lord’s Amendments 115 and 116 about promoting competition to give Ofwat the impression that their provisions would override the need to ensure that abstraction protection was in place before competition in the upstream area was triggered.
Therefore, I cannot support this group of amendments as a whole. The Government may wish to consider one or two of them but, at this point, many of them go too far beyond the scope of the Bill or could be interpreted as doing so.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con)
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Moynihan’s Amendments 115 and 116 would introduce a new duty on incumbent water companies to “facilitate competition”. This would sit alongside their primary duties to supply water and provide sewerage services to their appointed areas. Amendments 138 to 145 would change Ofwat’s powers to amend licences to introduce the market reforms set out in the Bill.
One part of the proposed new duty on incumbents would require them to act in a manner that did not “prevent, restrict or distort” competition. I think we can all agree that it is essential that incumbent water companies play by the rules of the market so that customers benefit from competition. That is why the Competition Act 1998 already prohibits business from making agreements that involve the prevention, restriction or distortion of competition, or from abusing a dominant position in the market. Both incumbents and licensees are subject to an overarching competition law regime that deals with the concerns that the amendments seek to address. As my noble friend thought I would say, Ofwat is able to enforce the Competition Act 1998 in the water sector because it has concurrent powers with the Competition and Markets Authority.
In some of our debates on Tuesday, noble Lords made comparisons with Scotland, as did my noble friend today, but I note that a facilitating competition duty was not imposed on Scottish Water, although it, too, is subject to the aforementioned Competition Act. It is worth noting here that WICS does not have the same powers as Ofwat under the Competition Act, which may explain some of the differences in the way Scottish Water is regulated.
Incumbents will be subject to enforceable licence conditions, market codes and charging rules which will ensure that they operate fairly in the competitive markets. I question why the amendments do not require licensees to be under the same or a similar duty because both licensees and incumbents operate within the retail market and some licensees are associates of incumbents.
Lord Moynihan
My Lords, I am deeply grateful to the Minister for his comprehensive response. I have to say that this has been a very friendly Committee stage. Reference was made earlier today by my noble friend to the importance of policy formulation in the Bishops’ Bar. No doubt the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, and I will continue that discussion in the same venue at a later stage. Then, to top it all, I have to say that I regret the passing of the special relationship with my temporary noble friend the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and hope that it will return very strongly when it comes to revisiting the question of exit at a later stage in our proceedings.
On a more serious note, I am grateful to my noble friend for his support of my amendments, in particular the importance that he, like me, attaches to facilitating competition. It is absolutely critical that new entrants to the market do not come up against the misplaced use of economic power by the incumbents. That is what we were seeking in these amendments. I did not anticipate that my noble friend would respond quite so quickly to the additional points I raised in that context in the second part of my speech. There were one or two other items I proposed which I hope that he will reflect on, but I would not anticipate that he could do more than that. I hope that, between now and the Report stage, we will have an opportunity to consider them in somewhat greater detail. In the mean time, however, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Parminter
Baroness Parminter (LD)
My Lords, I welcome the fact that the Water Bill places the Government’s strategic priorities and objectives on a clearer statutory footing and requires Ofwat to carry out its functions in accordance with it. New Section 2A(3) to be inserted by Clause 24 makes it clear that, “In formulating a statement” the Government “must have regard to” Ofwat’s duties, but only,
“may have regard to social and environmental matters”.
The government briefing note on sustainable development and the resilience duty that was issued last month confirms that the Government are strongly committed to sustainable development, balancing the equally important needs of society with those of economic growth and environmental protection. Before lunch we debated how this is articulated in the duties for Ofwat, but it is equally important that it is articulated clearly in the duties placed on future Governments. That is why I believe that the word “may” should be changed to “must”, so that Governments must take into account social and environmental matters when formulating future policy steers.
Statements of strategic priorities will replace the existing social and environmental guidance currently issued to Ofwat. In future, the Secretary of State will issue a single consolidated statement setting out social, environmental and economic policy priorities. My noble friend the Minister kindly confirmed in a letter to me on 17 January that the Government intend to continue to provide guidance on social and environmental matters within that single consolidated policy statement. Given that the Government have said that they will provide guidance on such matters, I feel that the use of the word “may” insufficiently reflects that commitment and the need for future Governments to take account of these matters when formulating the crucial strategic policy that will guide Ofwat. I beg to move.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I support these amendments. New Section 2A(3) to be inserted by Clause 24 seems to differentiate between Ofwat’s duties regarding strategic priorities and social and environmental matters. We attach “must” to the former and “may” to the latter, but the Secretary of State ought to have regard to both. This is not the usual theological argument between “may” and “must”. Those of us who have been around the block on this legislation have come across that argument a number of times and have completely failed to understand parliamentary counsel’s advice. The provision clearly differentiates the status of the two duties. It does not differentiate and downgrade the social and environmental objectives for Ofwat, which some noble Lords might think would be sensible, as Ofwat is primarily an economic regulator. This is for the Secretary of State. It is the Secretary of State’s duty to balance all these issues out. He should therefore have regard to both duties and if it is “must” for the former it should be “must” for the latter. The provision does not say, “give priority to”; nor does it say, “If you have regard to these duties, you do not necessarily need to carry out exactly what they prescribe”. However, it is the duty of the Minister to balance all these things out. If the legislation gives less status to one than to the other, the outcome of the balancing seems to be predictive.
I do not think that is right. All parts of the policy need to be looked at. I think “must” is probably the appropriate modal verb but both duties need to be in the same form. They are both important and the Secretary of State, whoever that might be, needs to have regard to both. I therefore support the intention of the amendment.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Parminter for her amendment. She notes that Clause 24 on setting strategic priorities and objectives for Ofwat requires that the Secretary of State “must” have regard to Ofwat’s duties but “may” have regard to social and environmental matters. She would like to change “may” to “must”. I am also familiar with the debates to which the noble Lord, Lord Whitty refers, having delivered a “must” to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, yesterday at Third Reading of the Children and Families Bill.
The Government are keen to hear and understand my noble friend’s concerns. However, we think that the new power to set strategic priorities and objectives for Ofwat will ensure that social and environmental matters will continue to be addressed. The purpose of Clause 24 is to strengthen and clarify the existing guidance-giving powers. It enables the Secretary of State to issue a single consolidated statement setting out social, environmental and economic policy priorities in the round to help Ofwat to balance all the relevant considerations appropriately when making regulatory decisions.
The Government’s principles of economic regulation require that Ofwat regulates within a clear framework of policies and duties set by the Government. Under the new power, Ofwat must carry out its relevant functions in accordance with the statement. The new powers stipulate that, in issuing the guidance to Ofwat, the Secretary of State must have regard to all Ofwat’s duties. These are set out in Section 2 of the Water Industry Act 1991 and include protecting the interests of consumers, promoting economy and efficiency by companies in their work and, as we have already discussed, contributing to the achievement of sustainable development. These duties encompass the regulator’s essential purposes and it is right that, in giving a steer on policies and objectives, the Government should be bound by them. We note that the duties clearly embrace both social and environmental matters. In addition, the new powers under Clause 24 stipulate that when formulating a statement the Secretary of State may have regard to social and environmental matters. We hope that this serves to provide additional reassurance that such matters will continue to be addressed through the strategic priorities and objectives. As a further check, Clause 24 also requires that we consult widely on the statement of strategic priorities and objectives. Following this, the statement will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny. When we consulted on the existing strategic policy statement last year, the social and environmental content received a warm welcome from both environmental NGOs and consumer groups. I thank my noble friend Lady Parminter for her own tribute to this.
We have great sympathy with my noble friend’s objectives but we are not persuaded that such a change to the Bill is required. I therefore ask her to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Parminter
I thank my noble friend for her detailed comments on my amendment and for the fact that she noticed that I commented on the consultation last year. I take this issue very seriously. I also thank the Opposition Front Bench for supporting the amendment. It is not a matter of semantics. It might seem to be that, but it is more fundamental to the direction of travel—what we want for the water industry in the future and how we can assist future Governments to deliver the commitments that we all agree on. I will reflect on what the Minister has said, but we may return to this matter in the future. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Grantchester
“Billing information: affordability
Any company providing water services to a residential household must include on its bills—(a) details of any tariffs provided by that company;(b) a recommendation of the lowest possible tariff for each residential household; and(c) information regarding eligibility criteria and how to make an application for assistance under Water Sure.”
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, Amendment 118 is a straightforward requirement on companies to meet what ought to be seen as a basic customer service in the household sector. The amendment would simply require a company to do three things: to give consumers information about tariffs, including any social tariffs; to fit the most appropriate tariff to a household using the information it holds on households; and to provide information where there is a broad social support scheme available—currently Water Sure—clearly setting out the eligibility criteria.
This is basic customer service. The information is useful to everyone but vital to those with affordability issues. Affordability is clearly a problem for many families. Ofwat estimates that 11% of households spend more than 5% of their income on water, which would amount to more than 2 million households in the UK struggling to pay their bills. As the Prime Minister has been heard to say, the Government have not done enough and must do better.
The Water Sure scheme mentioned in the amendment was set up to help in this respect. It applies to low-income, metered households with high water use. Examples include those in receipt of qualifying benefit or tax credit with three or more children under 18 or those who, due to medical conditions, have very high water usage. It takes the step of capping the amount that such a family would have to pay to the average for that operating area.
These households have to apply to be on the tariff. Unfortunately, take-up of this scheme is much lower than it might be. This means that many who may need help are paying more than they need to pay and perhaps find themselves in difficulty as a result. Only a third of households that could benefit are actually using the scheme. In many areas, only a few hundred homes are receiving Water Sure payments. This amendment would go a long way towards ensuring that the necessary help will be more explicitly available. A company will have to put the details of the Water Sure tariff on customers’ bills. That company would also need to provide information that would enable the bill payer to work out whether or not they are eligible and, if they are, clear instructions about how to apply.
This is a simple amendment that will be greatly beneficial to a large number of families struggling to cope with the cost of living crisis. I beg to move.
Viscount Hanworth (Lab)
My Lords, as I had occasion to remark at Second Reading, some water companies have been making exorbitant profits on the back of the rather generous tariffs that have been allowed by Ofwat. Whereas consumers were once able to disregard the cost of their water usage, it can now be a significant item in their budgets, to the extent that those in poverty may struggle to pay their bills. I have also indicated that the revenues of the water companies have often been used by the owners of those companies for purposes quite unrelated to those of the industry, when they should be used to cover operating costs and the costs of investing in capital infrastructure.
This amendment seeks to ensure that consumers will be adequately informed of the details of tariffs and that they will be properly alerted to any schemes that are available for mitigating the costs when they prove hard to bear. The amendment can also be seen in the context of the various schemes that have been proposed that would alert consumers to their current water usage. This amendment and the one that follows it seek to cast further light on the costs and revenues of the water companies, which continue to be opaque, to say the least.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for introducing Amendment 118, which, as he said, would insert a new clause into the Bill to place a legal requirement on water companies to include information on their bills about the Water Sure scheme. The scheme provides a mandatory safety net for low-income customers on a meter who, for reasons of ill health or because they have a large family, use larger than average amounts of water. It caps the bills of these households at the average for their company area.
The eligibility criteria for Water Sure are twofold: the household must be in receipt of a relevant low-income benefit and must have three or more dependent children living at home or someone with an illness that necessitates high water use. It is unfortunately a feature of all means-tested benefits of this sort that take-up, as the noble Lord mentioned, can fail to match eligibility. That is why promotion of the scheme is so important. I am pleased to be able to tell the noble Lord that all water companies already voluntarily provide information about Water Sure on their bills.
In addition, Amendment 118 would require all water companies to provide information about tariff structures and the lowest available tariff. This is not the energy sector—water companies do not have complex tariff structures. In fact, the situation is quite the reverse. The choice for the majority of household customers is between paying according to volume of water used—a metered tariff—or according to the rateable value of their home. All water companies provide information on household customer bills about how to get a meter fitted free of charge. Companies also provide advice to customers on whether or not they might benefit financially from the installation of a meter; a role also performed by the Consumer Council for Water. The cheapest option for each household will depend on the location of the property and the amount of water used by the household. Where a company offers a social tariff, information on whether a household may qualify is provided by the company alongside the customer bill. The Consumer Council for Water works closely with each water company on the information provided on household bills to ensure that customer interests are met. Its very practical advice is that customers are likely to be put off by too much information in their bills.
For these reasons, I cannot agree that customers will be best served by placing an increasing number of legal requirements on water companies to include additional information on customer bills. I believe that the current approach of working in partnership with the body responsible for representing the interests of customers is more likely to be effective. I therefore hope that I can persuade the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Grantchester
I thank the Minister for that reply. I had not heard that all companies were already providing this information. My information was that this was not the case and that only some were. I am encouraged that the reassurance has been provided but, nevertheless, feel that the promotion of the scheme could be improved if it was included in people’s bills when they had to pay them. I am sure we will want to return to this issue because, given that the uptake of Water Sure payments is at a rather low base at the moment, we want to be reassured about what more could be done to bring this to the attention of families.
Thanks largely to the Consumer Council for Water, customer service has been improving in the water industry, dominated as it is, as my noble friend behind me has said, by large regional monopolies. Nevertheless, it is regrettably necessary to spell out these requirements. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Whitty
“National Affordability Scheme
(1) The Secretary of State must, by order, introduce a National Affordability Scheme for water.
(2) The National Affordability Scheme must include an eligibility criteria, determined by the Secretary of State, in consultation with—
(a) the Water Services Regulation Authority; and(b) the Consumer Council for Water.(3) An order under this section—
(a) shall be made by statutory instrument, and(b) may not be made unless a draft of the order has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.”
Lord Whitty
My Lords, Amendment 119 deals with the affordability question. As my noble friend said on the last amendment, roughly 11% of household consumers of water have problems paying their water bill, amounting to 2 million households. As the Minister said, at present there are two fairly crude systems of pricing water for households. One is based on the seriously outdated—or putative—rateable value of your house and the other is metered by volume. The Minister drew comfort from the fact that this does not lead to complicated tariffs, as there are for the energy sector. To some extent I agree with him—we do not want to overcomplicate this—but in neither the metered nor the non-metered sector for residential consumers is any regard paid to the circumstances of the household or the affordability of the bill. The existing formulae do not allow for that.
Until very recently, and absolutely until the 2010 Act, Ofwat took the view that we should not have varied tariffs, social tariffs or any tariffs that departed from those two basic approaches. It has been very resistant to introducing social tariffs until recently. The 2010 Act provided the option for companies to make social tariffs available to consumers. The Water Sure scheme is a more broadly based scheme, available across companies, for those on benefits with large families and those who have medical needs. The take-up of the option to introduce social tariffs has been hitherto pretty limited—only three companies have so far introduced them. If the Minister has any more recent figures I would be grateful for them, but my understanding is that about 70,000 people have taken up Water Sure and rather fewer have taken up the social tariffs available from individual companies. That is, at best, fewer than 150,000 out of the 2 million potential beneficiaries of a social tariff approach. The Government of course have also recognised the very particular situation with South West Water, but that is based on government expenditure, not on the structure of tariffs.
The industry now tells us that in a couple of years’ time all companies will have social tariffs and that those social tariffs will benefit low-income, vulnerable households. I hope that by the date we stipulate here, 2015, there will be social tariffs right across the board. However, first Ofwat and then the companies have been very slow in pushing this option. The take-up indicates that its availability is not well known and that the ease with which people take up social tariffs is pretty limited. We need to provide an incentive, or a push, on this front over the next year or so in order that all companies take it up and that the take-up among consumers is wide, in order to provide, if you like, a safety net. We recognise the desirability of companies taking notice of the configuration of their own consumers and the particularities of their region, and therefore it is better that companies are left to decide their own schemes which will suit their own circumstances. But they must have widespread eligibility, and be easily taken up and understood. At the present rate of progress it looks unlikely that anything like the potential 2 million households that would be helped by social tariffs will be on them by 2015. We need a national approach to this that will set minimum standards.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for Amendment 119, which would insert a new clause into the Bill to place a requirement on the Government to introduce by secondary legislation what is described as a national affordability scheme, with eligibility criteria set by government.
Keeping bills affordable while ensuring continued investment in essential water and sewerage services are the driving principles behind this Bill. I thank the noble Lord for giving us the opportunity to debate these important points. However, while I am in full agreement with him that we must consider the impacts of bills on hard-pressed households, I am not persuaded by his proposal.
First, the concept of a scheme with nationally mandated eligibility criteria simply ignores the reality of the water industry, which is structured on a regional basis. Different water company regions have different customer bases. Average incomes and the cost of living vary substantially from region to region, as do the costs of supplying water and sewerage services. A top-down, centralist approach could take no account of these regional variables. A centrally mandated set of eligibility criteria would have a completely different impact on households living in otherwise identical circumstances, depending on which region they happened to be in.
This is why the Government’s approach is focused on company social tariffs. We have issued statutory guidance that requires the companies to work with their customers to develop local solutions. These must be tailored to local circumstances and acceptable to customers who foot the bill. Companies have been able to introduce social tariffs since April 2013—for slightly less than a year. In the past year, three have done so. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, feels that the pace of change is too slow, but by 2015-16 the majority of water companies will have a social tariff in place.
Legislating for this change will not make it happen any faster. Given the requirements to develop nationally mandated eligibility criteria, it could actually slow the pace at which social tariffs are rolled out. That could delay the point at which some hard- pressed households receive the help that they need. As the noble Lord said, I have mentioned before that all incumbent water and sewerage companies have already developed packages to help customers with affordability problems. These include customer assistance funds, support tariffs, debt advice and water efficiency measures. Social tariffs have provided a valuable additional tool.
The second important point in relation to this proposal is that it remains far from clear how it is intended to fund this scheme. This is not a minor point of detail; it is the key point, which needs to be addressed. In discussions in another place, there were two suggestions for how such a scheme could be funded. Broadly speaking, these can be characterised as either some form of cross-subsidy from ineligible customers, or some form of tax on profits. These are materially different approaches with very different implications, so it is right to seek to get to the bottom of what is being proposed.
A nationally mandated affordability scheme funded by cross-subsidy would be a tax on all water customers ineligible for help. This would be a very blunt instrument. We must not forget that a great many households that are ineligible for help with their water bills are nevertheless living on very modest incomes. It would be hard on them to argue that they should have to foot the bill without being properly engaged in the development of a locally appropriate scheme.
Alternatively, some have proposed that a national affordability scheme could be funded by some form of windfall tax on company profits. In a price-capped sector such as water, this would be an odd thing to do. The recent publication of water companies’ business plans has demonstrated how the price review can work to claw back benefits for customers. By taking account of lower financing costs, Ofwat estimates that the next price review could significantly reduce pressure on all customers’ bills by between £120 million and £750 million a year. Most water companies are proposing flat or declining customer bills from 2015 to 2020. This is in advance of Ofwat’s efficiency challenge. The spectre of a tax on profits would seriously undermine the regulatory stability on which this system is founded, unnerving investors and pushing up costs for all customers.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, that it is vital that those who are struggling to pay get help. However, I believe that the current approach of regional affordability measures meets the realities of the sector. I therefore ask the noble Lord to consider withdrawing his amendment.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, on this amendment, the noble Lord has misunderstood the nature of the proposition and downplayed the nature of the problem. He says that all companies will have social tariffs in a couple of years. I hope that that is true and that it means that the majority—even pretty well all—of the 2 million people who have affordability problems will have been helped by those schemes.
Lord De Mauley
I ought to interject. I did not say that all companies within a couple of years would have social tariffs. I said that the majority of water companies will have a social tariff in place by 2015-16. All incumbent water and sewerage companies have already developed packages to help customers with affordability problems. I went on to say that these include customer assistance funds, support tariffs, debt advice and water efficiency measures.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, that is even less reassuring than what I thought the Minister said in the first place.
The Minister’s criticisms fall into two categories. The first is that this is a top-down proposition. It is not: it is a framework for companies to introduce social tariffs and other measures that help affordability within their own structures, subject to some minimum standards. It is not an imposition from the centre of exactly how to do that. It is, however, a failsafe if they fail to do it. The reality is that both the regulator and the companies have hitherto been quite resistant to such propositions. The noble Lord is right to say that, strictly speaking, 2013 was the first point at which they could consider them, but that was because of the three-year delay since the 2010 Bill and, before the 2010 Bill, deep resistance within the industry to any such concept. Therefore, we have form here and it is not sensible to be complacent that in 18 months’ time the companies will have sorted all this out. I do not believe they will. That is why they need a push and a framework that sets minimum standards of eligibility and operation.
The Minister’s second criticism concerns the funding of this proposition. He said that it could be funded out of a tax on profits. I have not proposed a tax on profits and I think the noble Lord’s brief misunderstands what was said in another place about this. It is fairly evident to me—and my noble friend Lord Hanworth has pointed this out on many occasions—that actually most water companies could afford to be a bit more generous to their consumers in relation to profits, dividends and the tax that they currently pay, but that is not in any sense an advocacy of a windfall tax, so let us get that out of the way. The other funding proposal is by cross-subsidy. In one sense, social tariffs are by definition a cross-subsidy. Therefore, if the Minister hopes that all companies will come up with social tariffs or equivalent schemes, the objection is just as valid to his proposition as it is to mine. Therefore, there is no additional cross-subsidy compared with the preferred outcome of the Government on this.
Lord De Mauley
I thought I had made the point that we accepted that there will be some sort of cross-subsidy but that, in our view, it would be better if that was organised on a regional basis because one could take into account regional circumstances.
Lord Whitty
Yes, but my proposition allows for that. It gives a push to companies to develop their social tariff schemes on a regional basis provided they meet minimum standards. I am not precisely defining what the national affordability scheme should consist of; it is up to the Minister and his department to come up with the appropriate forms in discussion with the DWP and other government departments and agencies that work in this field with vulnerable and low-income households. I am not attempting to lay that down. Therefore, this is not a top-down approach. It allows for some diversity of delivery.
The Minister’s objections to this proposition really do not stand up on either count. I hear what he says. I suspect that the department is pretty immovable on this but it is certainly an issue to which I intend to return. For the moment, I withdraw my amendment.
Lord Whitty
“Provision of information to water companies
(1) The Water Industry Act 1991 is amended as follows.
(2) After section 207 (provision of false information) there is inserted—
“207A Provision of information to water companies: landlords
Where a water company does not have information about a resident in a property that is using water, if the occupants of that property are tenants, the landlord must, on request, provide to the water company contact details for the tenants.”.”
Lord Whitty
My Lords, Amendment 120 relates to a different issue, that of debt—I think I am on the right one. I am on the right one but I do not have the right notes. However, I know what I am talking about.
Uncollected debt is a serious problem in the water industry. Every water company has a problem with uncollected debt. This arises from two groups: families such as those we were just talking about, who really cannot afford to pay their bills; and individuals and families—and sometimes businesses—who, frankly, will not pay their bills, or cannot be found and made to pay their bills. Both these issues need to be tackled. My previous amendment relates to the former; Amendments 120 and 122 relate to the latter, and the lack of activity on the part of some companies to rectify this position.
There is a disproportionate number of unpaid bills in the private rented sector. Even so, it is noticeable that there is a differential performance by water companies in collecting that debt which is not directly correlated to the level of private rented accommodation in their areas of operation; in other words, some are much better at it than others.
Lord Spicer (Con)
My Lords, I ask the noble Lord whether his amendment covers the reverse—a situation where a customer is owed money through, for example, a standing order. If at the end of the year a customer has not accumulated the same amount of expenses as the standing order, is that covered by the amendment?
Lord Whitty
My Lords, this is an issue, particularly for metered customers who have an estimated bill, for both companies and the residential sector. However, my amendment does not cover that. If the noble Lord wishes to bring forward an amendment, I am sure that the Government would look on it with favour.
Lord Spicer
The noble Lord’s amendment covers the question of debt being carried through the regulatory system of prices. Therefore, does it not affect the reverse: namely, credit?
Baroness Parminter
I rise to support the intention of Amendment 120, if not the intention of Amendment 122, which is grouped with it. The issue of bad debt and the implications of what that means for the affordability of all our bills is an important one.
At Second Reading I asked the Minister why the Government, unlike the Welsh Government, are not implementing the bad debt provisions in the Flood and Water Management Act 2010, alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. If they were to do so, it would help company debt recovery and bring down household bills. The response I received was that the Government were wedded to the idea of a voluntary scheme, with a database that the water companies were helping to fund, which would be brought in, probably via regulations, in the next month or so. I may be wrong, but I suspect that, with only an intervening 10 days between Second Reading and now, that is the answer that we will get again and that the Government will not wish to support these amendments.
Therefore I ask the Government, if they are determined to stick with the voluntary approach, whether they will set a reasonable review period to evaluate whether or not the voluntary scheme for landlords is effective. All the evidence to date, from the voluntary schemes of companies such as Northumbrian Water and others, shows that they do not work. It seems to be a reasonable request, if the Government are not prepared to move ahead with a mandatory scheme, for them to give an indication to the House of a reasonable review period, so that if the scheme is found to be ineffective—as most of your Lordships believe it will be—the regulations can be changed to make it compulsory.
The Earl of Selborne
My Lords, I have a lot of sympathy with the thrust behind the attempt of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, to deal with those who will not pay as opposed to those who cannot pay. Some six or seven years ago I had the privilege of chairing a report of the Science and Technology Select Committee on water management. We were appalled by the number of affluent people in South East Water’s area who had worked out that they could never be deprived of their water supply as it is illegal to turn off the water, so they simply did not pay for it.
The cost of taking someone to a small claims court is a difficulty. Where there is a change in population, such as happens in some areas more than others, the cost of trying to trace defaulters can be more than the cost of the debt. The two amendments proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, seek to deal with this. I suspect that it would be better to deal with this in secondary rather than primary legislation, as was originally intended. Nevertheless, I believe that my noble friend on the Front Bench should encourage the thrust of these amendments, to make sure that those who can afford their water perfectly well should be induced to pay for it, and that the water companies should be assisted in this, particularly by those with information on who is responsible for paying the bill. Landlords are often in a position to provide that information. All assistance should be given in this case. It is galling to know that people who cannot manage their affairs but are living an affluent lifestyle are advised by debt managers, “Well, don’t bother about the water bill”.
Baroness Byford (Con)
My Lords, over the years that we have been debating water bills, this has been a constant theme. I think that all of us in the Chamber, on whichever side we may have been sitting at a particular time, have agreed that it is a problem that needs to be resolved. What I am not quite clear about is whether Ofwat with its new responsibilities has the power to tackle what is being proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and whether that would then make his amendment unnecessary. However, I am still sympathetic to what the noble Lord said about those who can pay and will not pay. I rather gained the impression from Ofwat when it gave a presentation recently that it had the power to make adjustments to individual water companies. I might be wrong, but I would be glad of some clarification.
Lord De Mauley
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for his amendments. Amendment 120 would add a new clause to the Bill requiring landlords to provide contact details for their tenants at the request of the water company. Section 45 of the Flood and Water Management Act 2010 already enables Ministers to bring forward secondary legislation that would require landlords to provide water companies with personal details about their tenants—or themselves become liable for paying the bill.
Following extensive consultation in January 2012 with the industry and with landlords’ organisations, the Government took the decision that a voluntary approach would be more suitable. During consultation, landlords argued that the additional regulatory burden on them would be disproportionate, as they are not the source of the problem that we are trying to tackle.
We seek to make decisions based on the evidence. One purpose of the consultation was to invite the water industry to provide evidence of the benefits of the regulatory approach. In particular, neither the companies nor Water UK were able to provide any facts about the proportion of bad debt in rented properties that results from a lack of information about the occupier. This evidence was essential to assessing the benefit of the measure. The evidence provided by the water sector to support the case for additional regulation of millions of small and micro businesses was weak. The Government do not believe that more regulation is always the answer.
The evidence shows that good practice in tackling bad debt is not applied consistently across the water sector—the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, referred to this; that is something that we can agree on. The significant variation in performance between companies tells me that the focus should be on driving better standards across the sector rather than on regulating landlords. I used to run my own business and I know that debt collection, which is a subject that I know quite a lot about, is a matter largely of application and hard work. One reason why we do not propose to bring forward the bad debt regulations on landlords is that we do not wish to endorse the argument that performance on bad debt is outwith the control of the water companies. There is more that the companies can do to collect their debts and we want them to focus on this rather than looking to government to solve the problem for them.
Of course, the real driver of company performance is the incentives and penalties set by the regulator, so I am pleased to be able to report that Ofwat has changed the approach that it takes to bad debt in the methodology that it is using for the 2014 price review. The new approach will enable it more effectively to bear down on the costs of bad debt. It is doing this by insisting that the companies demonstrate that any increase in bad debt is genuinely beyond their control and that they have taken all available steps to control it. Unless they can prove that this is the case, they will not be allowed to include it in customer charges.
We are already seeing our focus on the industry taking responsibility for tackling bad debt bearing fruit. The industry is working with landlords’ organisations to establish a new voluntary scheme—and this answers the point raised by my noble friend Lord Selborne—that will enable landlords to provide information about their tenants directly to water companies swiftly and easily. This approach has the support of both Water UK and the main landlords’ organisations. The new database will launch in March this year. For these reasons, I believe that Amendment 120 is unnecessary.
The new clause proposed by Amendment 122 would provide a new power for both Ministers and Ofwat to disallow companies from recovering the costs of unpaid bills from their paying customers. Ofwat has the power to decide which costs may be recovered through the price review. As I have explained, and I think this answers the point made by my noble friend Lady Byford, Ofwat is already using the price review process to bear down on the costs of bad debt. It is requiring companies to demonstrate high performance in debt collection and to show that any increase in bad debt is genuinely beyond their control before they will be allowed to include it in customer charges. The current price review will challenge the poor performers to raise their game.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, in relation to Amendment 122, the information the Minister has given us and his response to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, indicate that Ofwat thinks it has the powers already. The power was given to the Secretary of State to stipulate that Ofwat can do that; it was always going to be the regulator who did it, under my amendments. If the regulator thinks that, because of the flexibility provided by the move to totex control—rather than everything being bound up in capital propositions—it can effectively both incentivise and penalise companies with poor debt collection records, then clearly Amendment 122 would not be needed. I think we need to return to this a couple of years down the line. Therefore, I will certainly not press Amendment 122.
On Amendment 120, however, it seems to me that the Government cannot have it both ways. Either there is a problem or there is not. They say that the evidence was weak and they hope that a voluntary approach will work. Certainly informally the companies say that this is a serious problem in the private rented sector. Most literature on the subject says there is a particular problem in the private rented sector and—if memory serves me right—the evidence to the committee chaired by the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, said it was a real problem in the private rented sector. That was seven years ago, so we are not getting very far along the line.
I hope that the Government will at some point revisit the triggering of the powers that they already have to introduce secondary legislation. If they do that, then there is clearly no need for Amendment 120, but I hope they will check fairly quickly whether the voluntary registration in which they are engaged is yielding results, because they have the powers to act and I am still pretty bemused as to why they have not done so. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
“Duties of the Secretary of State
The Secretary of State shall take such steps as are necessary to—(a) ensure that bodies carrying out—(i) the provisions of this Act;(ii) water and associated environmental regulations under other Acts;(iii) regulations and codes made under sub-paragraphs (i) and (ii) above; and(iv) equivalent regulations and requirements made under European Union legislation,minimise bureaucratic burdens on affected undertakings and others; and(b) reduce bureaucracy, overlap and waste within the various bodies concerned with water and established by statute or by European Union legislation by defining their respective duties clearly and transparently in one place and on one website.”
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
My Lords, as a new peer—like a new entrant to the water industry—I have been trying to understand this important industry: who does what and where power lies. At Tesco, I was regulated by more than 30 bodies, so I have some experience, but I have found this sector very hard to get my head around. My last job in Whitehall, under my elegant and noble friend Lord Heseltine, was about minimising and improving regulation, occasionally with success. I also worked on land drainage and flood protection in what is now Defra when the Thames Barrier was still being built, so I have great sympathy with my noble friend the Minister today—and for the victims of the floods.
When I look at a regulated area, I always try to think of the impact on business, consumers and others affected, and take a long-term view. From all these perspectives, the scale and complexity of this Bill—all 230 pages of it—worry me. It introduces more competition, which I very much welcome in principle, but we also have a new administrative spoke in the wheel of water management—the market operator, whose role the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, sought on Tuesday to bring into the light of day. My amendment would introduce a new clause giving duties to the Secretary of State and seeks to do two things. I will address the second part first because I think no one can object to it. It is about transparency.
I want an explanation and/or map, not on several websites as exist at present, but in one special place that would enable a new entrant, an investor whether in water resources or stocks, to understand the system. I want everyone’s duties set out clearly and transparently in one place. How helpful it would be to find in one place not only the list of bodies that can regulate or affect water and every kind of regulation but also exactly what their powers are and where and when they will be exercised. For example, this explanatory map would explain when the Environment Agency is able to intervene—a concern my noble friend Lady Parminter expressed on Tuesday—or when we can expect the delayed reforms on abstraction to take effect. It would help with the confusion over debt-collection powers, which we have just discussed. That clarity would also reduce overlap and waste. I know from working in business that having clear responsibilities that are well documented and understood cuts waste and improves implementation and compliance. We should of course put the map on the web, perhaps in a special internet app that all of us could download. The web is where enterprising people and new entrants search. It is cheap and easy.
The first part of my amendment is more contentious because it is about changing the way regulators, public servants and their ministerial masters behave. It is a requirement to minimise bureaucracy in every aspect of water, sewerage and abstraction, from negotiating at the highest level in Brussels to creating the humblest code. If lots of agencies and departments operate a cornucopia of rules and regulations, they spend too much time asking undertakers, consumers and each other for the same information, talking to each other and sometimes rowing, writing submissions and guidance, correcting errors and even fighting judicial reviews. Much of that activity is created by confusion and sometimes by inconsistency, which the proposed process would help to prevent. The bureaucratic burdens created cost money. That is not only wasteful but has to be paid for. I suspect that in the water system, with its regulated system of returns through Ofwat, this money often comes from consumers without benefiting anyone else—or it consumes taxpayers’ money, which, with the legacy of the deficit, we cannot afford.
This amendment would require all organisations involved in the governance and administration of water to think in a clearer, simpler way and, I hope, avoid the need for future deregulation and simplification. It should have wide support. I beg to move.
Lord Crickhowell
My Lords, my noble friend made a formidable speech at Second Reading in which she launched her assault on overregulation. Already today, dealing with other amendments, a number of noble Lords spoke about the difficulty of following the details of this legislation. I have explained that despite my experience of trying to regulate part of the water industry, I find the Bill almost totally incomprehensible. At Second Reading, I said that it is the most incomprehensible Bill I have come across in 43 years in both Houses. This is partly because it amends two other major pieces of legislation. Indeed, when I struggled to draft some amendments and decided the task was beyond me, I got down from the shelves in the Library one of those earlier Acts and realised that it was not going to get me much further. We have also been debating a series of regulations, some of them not yet known.
Quite clearly, the subject my noble friend has raised is of great importance. It has already been suggested that following the completion of the passage of the Bill the Government must try to bring together in a simple, co-ordinated way the principal points, clauses and requirements of the Bill. That argument has been strengthened, reinforced and added to by my noble friend. Her idea that the principal matters be brought together on a single website is admirable. I do not know whether anything quite like that has ever been done in government before.
The trouble with government departments is that they tend to be very self-contained and self-sufficient. Getting them to work together in a co-ordinated way is sometimes extremely difficult. That makes the job even more difficult for the consumer because if you do not know what the legislation and regulations are and you do not even know the appropriate department dealing with it, you are likely to be lost. Following the passage of the Bill, the Government must give some very careful thought to how the public, small businesses and those who are being regulated are to be brought to understand exactly what they have to do, what benefits may accrue if they do it and what penalties may accrue if they fail to do it.
There is an urgent requirement here, and it should be a priority, but perhaps not of the Minister’s department. I think it goes wider than that. It is probably an issue for the heart of government to see how this should be done. I hope that even if the Minister cannot give an immediate, clear-cut answer—and I suspect he will not be able to—he will undertake to take this matter away to his colleagues and ask that it is looked at by those who have the authority to see that something is done on this matter.
The Earl of Selborne
My Lords, I want to give the Minister a little encouragement. We all recognise that this is a hopelessly complicated Bill that has been many years in gestation. On a number of occasions, we have complimented Defra, rightly so, on its briefing notes—yet another has come out today. Start putting those on a website, and you will have a work of reference that will be of enormous assistance.
One of the things in previous decades that has led to confusion has been the fact that the three different regulatory authorities—the Environment Agency, Ofwat and the Drinking Water Inspectorate—have different agendas and, before these new duties of resilience came in for Ofwat, there was no reason why Ofwat and the Environment Agency should ever agree. As I said at Second Reading, I never really felt that I was going to feel sorry for the water companies, but on that aspect I did because they were being dragged in two different directions.
If you really want to manage water in an appropriate way, you should do it by catchments, but unfortunately you cannot organise Great Britain, or even England and Wales, by catchments. That is, alas, not the way that local government, or any government, works. In the Bill, we are trying to promote sustainable management of water. That means starting at the estuary and working uphill, and if that can be done by catchment, so much the better. You try and get all the different bodies together, preferably with voluntary agreement—I agree with my noble friend who moved this amendment that, if you can do that without regulation, so much the better—but of course there must of course be a regulatory framework, and no one is disputing that.
The reason that I have some small words of comfort for my noble friend on the Front Bench is that I think that the Bill, complicated though it is, goes a long way towards bringing the two main regulatory authorities—the Environment Agency and Ofwat—to a common agenda. If we asked in Scotland, where there is yet another regulatory authority, I think they would say that their relationships with Ofwat—on roughly the same agenda, but with a completely different competitive background for the past five years—can now only improve. That is important as some catchments straddle the Scottish and English border. If ever there was a case for ensuring that we work to a common agenda, it must be for those people in the catchment area of the River Tweed.
Lord Spicer
My Lords, I am inspired by my noble friend Lord Crickhowell, who said that his worry was that there is a process of intervention, greater control and centralisation taking place on a wider scale, of which the water industry may be part. I do not know much about the water industry, but I do know about the electricity industry—I declare an interest as chair of the trade association for the electricity industry—as I was the Minister who took the electricity privatisation Bill through Parliament some 20 years ago. In that industry, there is certainly increasing intervention by Government and by the regulator. There is a definite trend. What happens eventually we will have to see, but I suspect the same thing is going on with water.
Therefore, my slight reservation with my noble friend’s amendment is whether it would make the process of regulation more efficient, more centralised and more bureaucratic or whether, in some way, it would do the reverse. I hope that it would do the reverse, because that is what we want to see. If she could address that point, it would be very helpful to me in judging what is going on.
Lord Moynihan
My Lords, briefly, I support the amendment proposed, although again I anticipate that the Minister is not going to be able to accept it. I would like to echo the comments made by my noble friend Lord Selborne about the briefing notes, which have been outstandingly helpful. In a latter edition, there was a very helpful road map which draws together some of these key issues. In the spirit of being helpful to my noble friend on the Front Bench, if the Minister is not in a position to accept the amendment on the face of the Bill, I hope that he will encourage his officials to give prominence to that road map on the website, and therefore in part meet the suggestion in my noble friend’s amendment.
My second point is that this is a matter of wider significance in Government. I hope that the Minister agrees that this is a subject that the Cabinet Office should look at carefully, not just in the context of water but in the wider context of the utilities. There is a necessity for clarity for those who do not spend many hours sitting on your Lordships’ Benches going through the detail of these Bills but who nevertheless have an equal, if not a greater, interest in the key elements of the legislation before Parliament.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness on producing such an important amendment. I suspect that it is beyond the Minister’s pay grade to agree that, in accepting the amendment, we would at one and the same time get Parliament to rationalise the way in which we legislate, get Ministers to ensure regulators co-ordinate with each other and get departments to make their activities comprehensible to the public. Nevertheless, these are welcome ambitions. The noble Earl, Lord Selborne, added some rationalisation of the quangos as well. I am afraid that all this is indicative of the way in which we do business. From listening to the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, both at an earlier stage and today, I understand that this is not a new problem—I have noticed that the Water Industry Act 1991 is seven pages longer than the Bill we are considering.
However, to be serious about this, one of the great failings of Parliament has been the failure to produce consolidated legislation in any field. After 15 or 16 years in this House, I still fail to understand why Parliament has not devised a procedure for pulling together consolidation of Acts in all areas, so the noble Baroness’s amendment has wider implications. Whether the amendment should sit in the Bill I will leave to the Minister but, much more narrowly, the proposition that for each subject matter there should be a single website address which links to all the different bits of regulation, authorities and other government interventions, is very good. It is one which has been talked about in Whitehall but hardly delivered at all. The one point where Defra could probably take this amendment on board in the context of water is regarding that single website. I think practitioners, companies and consumers would be very pleased to see such a development. I congratulate the noble Baroness, but we will see what the Minister says.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her Amendment 122A, which would introduce a new statutory duty on the Secretary of State to ensure that the bodies involved in regulation of the water industry work to minimise bureaucracy. It would also require a definition of all the statutory bodies concerned with water to be published on a single website. I strongly support her in her desire to minimise bureaucracy, duplication of effort and waste. I am quite sure that I railed against it and for the consolidation of legislation when I was in opposition, as the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, is enjoying doing today. These issues are not exclusive to this sector. Indeed, this Government have an energetic and far-reaching programme of reform designed to slash red tape wherever possible. I would argue that we have made some considerable progress with that.
My department has been one of the trailblazers in Whitehall in transforming our approach to regulation. For example, through our Smarter Environmental Regulation Review, in which I have been closely involved, we are attacking unnecessary complexity, inconsistency and duplication of environmental regulation. We are also rationalising environmental guidance and data reporting to make it easier to comply with legal obligations. My department has also carried out a comprehensive assessment of the costs and benefits of all the regulations for which we are responsible. Through the Red Tape Challenge initiative, we have reviewed more than 1,200 regulations and by the end of this Parliament we expect to be delivering savings to business of more than £250 million each year. I hope that this provides my noble friend with some assurance that the Secretary of State already has bureaucracy squarely within his sights.
On the specific changes being made by the Bill, first and foremost I should emphasise that it does not create any new public bodies. The existing regulatory landscape remains unchanged in that regard. I am grateful for this opportunity to clarify the current framework for regulation in the water sector. In England, the water industry is regulated by three separate, independent bodies: Ofwat, the Drinking Water Inspectorate and the Environment Agency. Ofwat is the economic regulator responsible for ensuring that water and sewerage companies provide consumers with a good quality service and value for money. This includes setting price limits to ensure that customers receive a fair deal, while ensuring that the companies are able to attract low-cost investment in our essential services.
The Government commissioned an independent review of Ofwat and consumer representation in the water sector in 2011. Undertaken by experienced regulator David Gray, the review concluded that regulation in the water sector has worked well since privatisation and that major changes to the statutory and institutional framework were not required. The Ofwat review made a range of recommendations about the ways in which the regulator could reduce the regulatory burden it places on the industry. In response, Ofwat put in place a programme of internal reform and substantially reduced reporting and other burdens. It has since revised its approach to the price review—something we talked about earlier today—in order to ensure that companies focus on their customers’ priorities rather than looking to the regulator for guidance.
The Environment Agency regulates the impact of the water industry on our environment and promotes sustainable development. It regulates water abstraction as well as the treatment and discharge of wastewater back into the environment. It also helps water companies with their long-term water resource management and drought-planning functions. The Government have introduced a process whereby all public bodies are subject to triennial review to scrutinise how the Government deliver their objectives as effectively and efficiently as possible, achieving the best possible value for taxpayers and the public. The Environment Agency was reviewed under this process in 2013. The review looked at how it could work in leaner, smarter ways to enable and drive sustainable growth, making best use of the resources available to it.
The Drinking Water Inspectorate is responsible for ensuring that companies provide safe, wholesome drinking water that meets standards set down in law. Although not a regulatory body, the Consumer Council for Water also plays an important role by representing water and sewerage customers.
My noble friend referred to the market operator. In our debates on Tuesday, we clarified that this is neither a public body nor a regulator but a straightforward administrative entity that will be run by the industry for the industry, within the context of the regulations laid down by Ofwat. In fact, the market operator will serve to minimise bureaucracy by providing a single set of administrative systems for switching customers, which would otherwise need to be duplicated by every company operating in the market. In our debates on this matter on Tuesday my noble friend Lord Selborne noted that such bodies are a common feature of regulated utility industries.
I hope that I have gone some way to clarify the roles and responsibilities within the water sector. As with any sector, we are always looking for ways we can do things better and more efficiently. As I have said, we are active in challenging red tape and bureaucracy. We have the Red Tape Challenge process, which has already scrutinised all the regulations affecting the water industry. We have established the principles for economic regulation to guide the high-level institutional design of the regulatory frameworks by the Government. These reinforce the Government’s role in establishing the policy direction and appropriate guidance, leaving regulators to regulate independently. A new regulators’ code also takes effect in April that will apply to non-economic regulators such as the Environment Agency and the Drinking Water Inspectorate. It is the latest step in the Government’s drive to put businesses’ need for clarity, transparency and minimum bureaucracy at the heart of the regulatory system.
There are more examples of the provisions already in place to ensure the roles and responsibilities of regulators and other public bodies are clear, and that unnecessary bureaucratic burdens are identified and removed. One of the more relevant of these is the shared duty of the Secretary of State and Ofwat under Section 2 of the Water Industry Act 1991 to have regard to the principles of best regulatory practice. The Act already specifies that their respective regulatory activities should be undertaken in a way that is transparent, accountable, proportionate, consistent and targeted only at cases in which action is needed.
Lastly, I know that my noble friend is keen to see information about the various bodies concerned with water on a single website. I am therefore pleased to be able to confirm to her that all of Defra’s agencies will move across to the gov.uk website by the end of March this year. I also thank my noble friend Lord Moynihan for his welcome for the notes and the road map, which is indeed on the website. Although I fully concur with the spirit in which my noble friend’s amendment has been tabled, I ask her to withdraw it as it would effectively duplicate existing provisions.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, I am grateful for the trenchant support I have had from this side of the House for my efforts to reduce bureaucracy and promote clarity and transparency, especially from my noble friend Lord Crickhowell. My noble friend Lord Selborne talked about the possibility of the map I proposed being made on a catchment area basis. However, my experience of broadband, where there is a county-by-county map, is that it is not very effective. One of the things I was looking for was to have all the rules, regulations, agencies and requirements in one place on the one website. That can certainly be on the gov.uk website, as the Minister has kindly suggested, but they all need to come together so that a consumer, an investor, or a water undertaker who may be bringing in a new reservoir can see the whole piece. I would find that bottom-up approach hugely valuable. I feel that the documents that have already been made available are a start, but they do not—
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
They are, but I was suggesting that we have a website that brought all the different things together in one place, not just the helpful notes that the Minister has put forward, and which takes people through the rules.
I am extremely grateful for the Minister’s support in reducing bureaucracy and in outlining the different things that have been done to achieve that end. However, it is all the more important to bring the various requirements together to make it clear what is happening. We could bring about a quiet revolution of clarity and transparency and make entry into the industry much less forbidding if we could bring what is being set out in these different laws and by these different agencies into one place. Of course I welcome the idea of putting those on to one website, but I will study what the Minister has said and consider whether further thought needs to be given to how that might be done, to find a way forward. Perhaps we can also do some policy formation in the Bishops’ Bar. I thank my noble friend, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Whitty
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I will speak also to Amendment 124. These amendments deal with the water resource management plans. Water resource management plans, to colleagues who are not familiar with them, are the 25-year plans which each water company is required to produce, which then have to be approved by the Environment Agency. Those plans are fairly strategic. A lot of thought and work goes into them and there is a lot of consultation on them—but it is not always clear what they are used for thereafter. One presumes that the companies follow them for their own strategic decisions. To a limited extent Ofwat follows them in terms of the allowance for capital expenditure that is required in the price review. However, that covers only five years, and Ofwat, try as it might, cannot always see 25 years ahead as regards the changing capital and management requirements that will be needed.
The legislation on this, which is marginally changed by Clause 27, refers only to those plans being authorised,
“for the supply of water to consumers”,
which is of course the key issue. However, it is also important that the plans allow various regulatory, environmental, water quality and resilience requirements to be met. For example, water framework directive timetables and objectives and various ecological requirements have to be met. Following the Government’s inclusion of resilience as a primary duty of Ofwat, companies will undoubtedly have to meet requirements under the resilience criteria by a certain date. The amendment seeks to broaden what the plans deliver in public policy terms and therefore includes a requirement to meet environmental, quality and resilience standards.
Amendment 124 deals with an issue at which I hinted earlier—namely, that once the relevant plans are in place, the environmental regulator and the economic regulator need to pay attention to them. At the moment, following a change of direction or policy on the part of either Ofwat or the Environment Agency, decisions can be taken which do not accord with the plans. Theoretically, the relevant company then has to change the plans but probably does not do so until it has to revise them in five or six years’ time. Amendment 124 suggests that the Bill requires the relevant regulator to have regard to those plans when conducting price reviews, and that the Environment Agency must do so when conducting its regulatory and enforcement activity. If that is not done, the plans will gather dust on the shelf, will be referred to occasionally by the companies themselves but will be used rarely by those who are supposed to be in charge of regulating the sector.
I may exaggerate the position slightly, in that these are important documents and are regarded as such, but they are not quite given the importance that they deserve at either the company or the regulator end. These amendments seek to change that position. I beg to move.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for tabling these amendments. As noble Lords know, the noble Lord introduced the Water Act 2003 to Parliament, which made the planning processes a statutory requirement. We recognise that he seeks to ensure that the water resources management framework has greater bite and that the relevant plans will have the desired effect. I hope to show him that these plans are supported by other policy measures.
Water resources management plans must show how incumbent water companies intend to maintain a sustainable water supply demand balance over a period of at least 25 years, as the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said. They must do this within the framework of environmental protection that is set out in legislation. The noble Lord seems to be concerned that they may not have that necessary effect.
Within this context, new Section 37A allows the Secretary of State to issue directions to the incumbent water companies on any relevant matter for which they must plan. In addition to this, water resources management planning guidance sets out the expectations of government and the regulators in relation to the water environment—for example, that the options chosen must not lead to any deterioration in the status of the water environment.
The companies have their own statutory environmental duties. For example, when exercising their functions, companies must have regard to the environmental sites protected by the habitats regulations. They must also have regard to the Environment Agency’s relevant river basin management plans. In addition, both the Environment Agency and Natural England are statutory consultees on the draft plans, and the Environment Agency provides the Secretary of State with technical advice on the plans. Following consultation on the plans, the Secretary of State has power to direct an incumbent water company to change its plan if he is not satisfied—
Lord Spicer
I am most grateful to my noble friend for giving way. Is she not a little concerned that all this is renationalisation by the back door? One is constantly finding additional powers being given to the regulator, and the current big excuse is the environment. Exactly the same thing is happening in electricity—carbon considerations are resulting in more and more powers being given to the regulator, and it is now happening in respect of all the companies’ plans. Is there not a slight worry, particularly if the Government can move in with policy insistence, that we are renationalising the industry by the back door?
Baroness Northover
I am sure that my noble friend shares everyone’s concern that the Government should take responsibility for ensuring that we do our very best to protect the environment. We need only to look at the challenges that we are facing at the moment to realise the importance of that, and it is in our common interest to do so. Here we have a semi-monopoly in an area that is vital to everyone. It is extremely important, therefore, that we balance all the necessary pressures. However, I am sure that my noble friend Lord De Mauley will be happy to talk further with my noble friend to explain the philosophy behind the Bill.
Coming back to my comments on the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, I was setting out the other areas that help support his ultimate aims, which were, as I understood them, that these 25-year plans should have positive environmental effects. I was showing how other measures, too, help underpin and strengthen those plans.
As regards Amendment 124, both Ofwat and the Environment Agency already have general duties regarding incumbent water companies’ maintenance of their water supply systems. Ofwat and the Environment Agency consult extensively with incumbent water companies through the water resources management planning processes. For the current water resources management planning round, joint government, Ofwat and Environment Agency guidance was issued to companies to help them prepare their plans. This guidance also set out the role of each regulator in the process.
The Environment Agency, as well as having responsibilities to protect and improve the environment, and promote sustainable development, also has duties such as those set out in Section 15 of the Water Resources Act 1991 to have particular regard to incumbent water companies’ duties. Ofwat has primary duties to ensure that the companies can both finance and properly carry out their functions. The current round of water resources planning and business planning processes have seen much closer joint working between Ofwat and the Environment Agency than may have occurred in the past. I hope that that point is helpful to the noble Lord. To ensure that the outcomes of the water resources management planning process are reflected through the price review process, the Government have made it clear that they expect Ofwat to use its role as a statutory consultee to identify at an early stage any proposals within a water resource management plan that would be inconsistent with its approach to the price determination process.
I have set out a number of these other areas in order to reassure the noble Lord about how the 25-year plan fits into this issue. I heard his concern about whether these provisions had any effect, but all are consistent with what he has been saying about trying to ensure that the water companies operate within a sustainable framework. I hope that my exposition has reassured him and that he will be happy to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I am happy with those reassurances, in particular on underlining the need for the regulators to work more closely together and on the plans themselves. I think I am probably the only person alive—I am certainly the only person in this House—who has served on the boards of both Ofwat and the Environment Agency, albeit for only a very short time on the board of Ofwat. Although relations had thawed somewhat by that time, they are actually more constructive today, which is very important when looking at these long-term plans. I thank the noble Baroness for her reassurances.
In a sense, my amendments were provoked by new Section 37AA(2) which states that a direction about adjusting the plans or addressing them can be given,
“only where the Secretary of State considers it appropriate”,
in relation to the supply of water. However, there are other outcomes, and the noble Baroness has given me a reassurance that they will be dealt with elsewhere. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord De Mauley
“(7) For the purposes of section 63AC, premises which are outside a water undertaker’s area are to be treated as being within that area if they are supplied with water using the undertaker’s supply system.
(8) In subsection (7), the reference to the undertaker’s supply system is to be construed in accordance with section 17B.”
Baroness Northover
Baroness Northover
My Lords, Amendments 126, 130 and 148 to 152 are minor and technical amendments to ensure consistency and to correct drafting errors, or provide consequential provisions to the Bill. For example, Amendments 126 and 130 change the wording in new Sections 63AF(3) and 110O(3) of the Water Industry Act 1991 so that they refer to “a code” rather than “the code”, as is currently the case. This corrects a drafting error and provides consistency in Clauses 31 and 32 respectively. Amendment 149 makes a consequential change in Schedule 7 by changing an incorrect reference to “any licensed water supplier” so that it refers to “any water supply licensee” instead. I beg to move.
Lord De Mauley
(iii) services are provided to the premises by another sewerage undertaker following the service of a notice by the owner or occupier of the premises on the undertaker providing services under subsection (2) specifying the time after which the undertaker will no longer be required to provide sewerage services to the premises (see section 110M(5)),”
“(3) For the purposes of section 110L, premises which are outside a sewerage undertaker’s area are to be treated as being within that area if they are provided with sewerage services using the undertaker’s sewerage system.
(4) In subsection (3), the reference to the undertaker’s sewerage system is to be construed in accordance with section 17BA(7).
(5) Section 110K(2) and (3) apply to a notice served under section 110L(6)(b)(iii) as they apply to a notice served under section 110K.”
Lord Whitty
Lord Whitty
My Lords, Amendment 134 and the other two amendments in this group deal with the issue of collective consumer rights. We are now into the consumer field. The water industry or service has pretty standard terms. Tariffs, whether by volume in the metered sector, or by rateable value in the non-metered sector, are pretty standard. Charging schemes and means of payment are also usually pretty standard. The nature of the service—the supply of water—is fairly straightforward. However, there are wider services in terms of advice, and emergency services when a customer is cut off or there are leakages. If something goes wrong on all these fronts, more than one consumer is likely to be affected.
The Bill introduces a degree of choice, but only in a relatively limited field. It leads to the possibility of switching, but in general people will be faced with standard terms and a standard service. Failure to provide the service or the misallocation of costs or mis-selling of prices is likely to affect a significant number of people. However, the consumer rights in this field and the procedures which are written into this and more general legislation are almost entirely written in terms of individuals.
Amendment 134 allows group complaints. If a whole village complains about the way its water has been cut off, the complaint would not need to be dealt with property by property. If a whole tranche of customers feels aggrieved by the prices they are being charged or the overcharging of prices, the amendment allows them all, either on an opt-in or opt-out basis, to bring complaints. The noble Lord, Lord Spicer, raised an example a few minutes ago in relation to the overcharging of people who have agreed to pay by direct debit in advance on a metered tariff.
The Government have recently introduced the Consumer Rights Bill in the other place. That legislation does something that I have been advocating for a considerable time—it introduces a degree of collective rights and collective redress generally across the consumer field. However, it only relates to abuse of competition law; it does not relate to mis-selling or unfair contract terms. But it is at least a start. I have argued on most Bills, whether on banking services, the energy industry or more generally, that we should have more collective provision in terms of enforcement rights. That should also be recognised in this legislation as regards water.
Amendments 134 and 135 provide the basis for dealing with such a complaint in the first instance and for redress to be granted on a collective basis. In other words, everybody who suffers from unfair treatment should be allowed to have equivalent redress, however many pounds that would be in compensation. Noble Lords will be aware of how this has got out of hand in another sector, where every PPI claim has had to be pursued by individuals or claims companies. We know the effects of that. Had the complainants woken up to this a lot earlier, they could have proposed a collective redress system. This is less likely to arise in water because it is a less complex industry, but, by definition, that means that where it does go wrong more people are likely to be involved. It is therefore important that this is written into the Bill.
My third amendment in this group deals with the Consumer Council for Water, whose role is written into various parts of the Bill and preceding legislation, but not in the context of being consulted on water charging systems. The 1991 Act preceded the creation of CCWater—which was created by the 2003 Act—and provided a number of consumer rights or protections. Most subsequent legislation has adjusted to the fact that CCWater now exists, but not in relation to the provisions on charging schemes. I am therefore suggesting, in Amendment 136, that CCW should be specifically consulted on charging schemes. The amendment would correct the omission.
It is important that we upgrade the ability of consumers in this field, which is still a regionally monopolistic one. Where there is monopoly, there is often abuse of consumers; the possibilities are there in this field, and sometimes they are a reality. I therefore think we should provide both for a role for CCWater and for consumers in general to be able to act on a collective basis. I beg to move.
Lord Spicer
My Lords, this is pretty standard stuff: first you legislate to weaken competition, which is the true protector of the consumer; then you legislate for consumer rights. That way lies socialism.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, perhaps I could seek clarification about the effect of the amendment, which it seems concerns individual complaints as well as collective ones. As I see it, having been in business, complaints are normally dealt with by the business or authority to which they come. You do not want to have special schemes unless there is something pretty serious and bad. I want to understand the purport of this amendment—if it is actually bringing in a whole load of new things that are going to be done by an authority or statute rather than by the company that is meant to be doing the right thing for the consumer, I am concerned.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for his amendments, which, as he laid out, relate to the vital question of consumer protection. Most noble Lords, bar one, seemed to be supportive of his emphasis. We all wish to see an increasingly consumer-focused water industry and we welcome the opportunity to debate these matters.
The noble Lord thinks that, at the moment, this provision applies only to a single claimant. I will address whether the consumer redress scheme includes complaints made by groups of customers as well as complaints made by individual ones. I can clarify that the ability to address consumer complaints, whether they relate to a single customer or to a group of customers, is already reflected in this clause, which is drafted in such a way as to be inclusive rather than exclusive. To be clear, it covers complaints by both individual customers and groups of customers collectively—I want to put that very clearly on the record. The noble Lord might like to know that CCWater has already successfully taken up complaints on behalf of groups of customers, for example in a conurbation where a number of neighbours wished to challenge their surface water drainage charges. I hope, therefore, that he is reassured on the first area that he flagged up here.
On Amendment 136, we agree that consumer protection is an important matter in the context of the Bill. I also put on record and inform noble Lords that this is an area where action is already being taken. The industry, Ofwat and the Consumer Council for Water are working together to improve their collective approach to consumer redress. An independent dispute-resolution scheme is being established to give all customers an independent route for resolving their complaints without having to go to court. The new scheme aims to provide a transparent mechanism for resolving complaints that have reached a deadlock under current arrangements. Work on this scheme is already well advanced, with all the water companies having signalled their support, and I note what my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe said about the industry being central to this.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for spelling that out. I should explain to the noble Lord, Lord Spicer, that we are discussing a consumer redress scheme that is being proposed for the first time by this Government. I suspect that they did not have in mind that they were setting off down the road to socialism, but there we are.
I was suggesting that we need to make it explicit that there is collective ability here, because there are a lot of these schemes where there is no such collective ability. Certainly, the complaint goes first to the company. If there is a failure to resolve that at company level, there are systems involving CCWater for taking it further. Ultimately it could appear either through the new ADR system that the Government intend to develop, which is not yet a full ombudsman, or it could still end up in the courts. In the courts, it would still have to be an individual system.
I may not need to specify it in relation to the redress system, but there remains an issue in relation to potential collective claims. However, it was very helpful that the noble Baroness put on the record that under the scheme that is envisaged and being consulted on now, collective claims, collective complaints and collective redress could all apply; I am very grateful for that.
My second amendment concerns the role of CCWater. I should point out that we are not actually asking CCWater to be an adjudicator. The amendment is supported by CCWater, as I understand it. It is just that in this particular area of charging schemes, it is not written in as a consultee, whereas in other areas it is. It is true that in practice most companies—the noble Baroness says all; I will take her word for it—consult CCWater. It would have been quite useful for that to have been in the Bill. However, for the moment, I will withdraw the amendment.
Lord Whitty
“General duties with respect to water industry
In pursuit of its duty under section 2 of the Water Industry Act 1991 (general duties with respect to water industry) the Authority must take into account all information provided by section (Duties of undertakers to furnish the Secretary of State with information: annual review); and may consider such information when determining whether reopening a review of prices would further the consumer objective, set out in section 2(2A)(a) of the 1991 Act.”
Lord Whitty
My Lords, rather late in the day we are approaching a rather important issue, which concerns the powers of Ofwat to reopen a price review within five years if circumstances change or if information received from companies on their performance raises serious issues. Considering Ofwat’s role in a more dynamic market, this seems very important.
At present, we set the price maxima for five years. Companies can reopen the five-year settlement if circumstances change; for example, if they need to expend more capital than was allowed for in the price review, they can go back in. Thames Water went back in to see Ofwat about additional money for the super-sewer. It was knocked back by Ofwat but it had the right to ask. I imagine that companies do not do it more often because if the company reopens the price settlement, Ofwat has the right to reopen it as well. It is not a big feature but I am arguing that there should be an equivalence.
Ofwat does not have the power to initiate a reopening. It uses informal powers, and has been quite successful in negotiating with some companies over the current five-year period for reductions in prices because of changed circumstances—mainly reflecting the fact that the cost of capital was significantly less in practice than had been allowed for when the price review was concluded. In reality, as my noble friend Lord Hanworth has pointed out more than once, that allowance for capital has permitted a significant degree of profit enhancement and dividend enhancement by companies, and it is important that Ofwat keeps an eye on this.
Amendment 137 would allow Ofwat to reopen the settlement if it thought that the way in which it was operating was no long appropriate to the economic circumstances, or that the company’s own behaviour gave it cause to reopen it because the terms of the settlement were no longer appropriate. Amendment 146 would provide some background for this. It would require water undertakers to provide information to Ofwat on a regular, annual basis on their financial affairs. This could be dealt with separately from the other amendment, but we have grouped them together for these purposes and there is an interrelationship. If this is a different provision from the very detailed cost breakdown that Ofwat now requires from companies in advance of the price review every five years, and if we move to a more competitive market, the details of that form of regulation may not have to be so onerous over time.
This amendment looks at how companies perform during the price period. It will provide a big picture of how the financial operation as a whole is working out. As we have constantly reiterated, there is a problem in this industry of a vertically integrated regional monopoly, with higher levels of gearing, dividends—they have been at over 90% of income over the past few years—and rates of return on assets, in a relatively low-risk industry, paying relatively low levels of taxation. There are issues about the totality of the finances of the sector that a regulator ought to be free to query. It certainly should have information on it. Your Lordships may have heard a recent programme about this on the BBC’s “File on 4”. I did not agree with all of it, but it pointed out, for example, that some of these companies have at least seven levels of executive decisions before reaching the real decision-makers at ownership level. That applied to Thames Water in particular.
It is important that Ofwat can challenge the way in which these companies conduct their financial affairs. Amendment 146 would provide it with the information for doing so and Amendment 137 would allow it to reopen the price settlement if it saw that there were serious and endemic concerns about the way in which a company was operating, or about changes in the cost of capital or the level of corporate internal transfer pricing and so forth. It is important that Ofwat understands the total system and it is important that it has the ability to reopen the settlement. Of late, water companies have received fairly bad publicity because of their overall financial structure. At the moment, the regulatory system cannot really address that and does not have the information needed in order to address it. This is a gap in Ofwat’s powers that needs to be filled. I beg to move.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, we should look very carefully at this proposal for an increase in regulation. Water and sewerage are long-term matters and the great need is to have investment in resilience, with the right and proper regulatory framework. Ofwat seems to have got tougher in recent times. It is right to have a five-year timescale or we will not get the investment that is needed for resilience. The entrepreneurs involved will assume that if profits go up, perhaps because they have improved efficiency, they will immediately get a call from Ofwat reopening the five-year settlement, triggered perhaps by articles in tabloid newspapers—the sort of thing that will not be good for investment in this vital industry.
Lord Moynihan
I support that view. I completely understand where the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, is coming from, but there is a serious potential risk here to the confidence of the investment community in the water market. I hope that my noble friend takes that into account when considering extending the reasons for opening up price reviews.
Lord De Mauley
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for his amendments. I shall deal with the amendments in reverse order, Amendment 146 followed by Amendment 137, as to some extent the latter builds on the former.
The new clause introduced by Amendment 146 would give water companies a duty to report every year to Ofwat and the Secretary of State about their performance, investment, tax, corporate structure and dividends. If obtaining these data is the noble Lord’s concern, I can confirm that all this information is already freely available in the public domain. The effect of the amendment would be simply to duplicate existing reporting requirements. The cost of the additional administrative burden on water companies would ultimately be met by customers. All companies—not just water companies—are already required to report on many of these matters in their annual reports and accounts. Any additional water sector-specific reporting requirements are a matter for the regulator, which is ardent in pursuing them.
The noble Lord raises some important issues about the way in which the sector is run, regulated and structured. I believe that the regulator is already taking action to address these issues. Let us be clear about the direction of regulation in the water sector. Ofwat is already taking vigorous action to improve standards of corporate governance across the sector. It is putting pressure on water companies to strengthen audit arrangements, board member appointments and governance generally. Ofwat recently published the outcome of a consultation on principles relating to board leadership, transparency and corporate governance. The principles set out clear standards for what the sector must do and set a clear timetable for their introduction across the sector. The response from water companies has been positive and I welcome that.
Ofwat has also launched a similar consultation relating to holding companies, seeking to apply basic principles to holding company boards across the sector on issues such as risk, transparency and long-term planning. I believe that the proposed annual review would place an additional burden on companies for very little gain, so I share the concerns about it expressed by my noble friends Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lord Moynihan.
Amendment 137 builds on the clause which would be inserted by Amendment 146. It would place a new duty on Ofwat to take into account the proposed annual report by water companies to the Secretary of State. It would then give Ofwat a further power to consider this information when determining whether to reopen a price review. Ofwat already has the power to reopen a price review under the substantial beneficial effects clause of the water company’s licence or by making an interim determination. If a water company is profiting from factors outside its immediate management control that were not anticipated at the time of the price determination, Ofwat can reopen its five-year price settlement. So Ofwat has the powers necessary to revisit price determinations. However, given the importance of regulatory stability in keeping prices down for customers, it rightly utilises these with caution and considers carefully whether there would be benefit to customers.
We are at risk of talking about things as they were, not things as they are or will be. Ofwat is changing the way in which it regulates. It is seeking to change the culture of the water sector and to facilitate companies taking greater ownership of and accountability for delivery to customers, now and in the long term. Therefore, I am not persuaded that these further powers and duties are necessary and I hope that I can persuade the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I would not disagree with the Minister and the noble Baroness that Ofwat is toughening up its stance, including on issues of governance within the sector. I think that I am at one with the Government in hoping that we move away from the detailed, costs-checking form of regulation of the industry towards a more broad-based one which will be helped by a degree of competition within the industry.
The Minister is right that Ofwat has emergency or overriding powers. The fact of the matter is that it has not used them and would have to meet some fairly stringent criteria so to do.
The Minister rightly admonishes me for looking backwards rather than forwards, but we have to look backwards to the immediate past. We have had two five-year price reviews. At the beginning of those reviews, the cost of capital, which is a huge part of the actual expenditure of the industry, was seriously overestimated over a period of 10 years, and prices set accordingly. During that period, the capital value of water companies went up substantially; the dividend payments went up substantially and a number of them were taken over, sometimes two or three times. Somebody made a significant amount of money out of that; it was not because of the increased efficiency of the industry, although the industry did make some efficiencies. It was a fortuitousness similar to when Ofwat, with what it thought was the best information at the time, set the allowance for capital; that allowed a much bigger profit than one had assumed at that time.
Under its existing powers, Ofwat did not judge, nor did successive Secretaries of State seek to nudge them to intervene. If the public knew that the system of regulation did not allow them to do so, they would be pretty appalled. I therefore think we need to do something. The Minister might not like my particular proposals—and they certainly are not perfect—but Ofwat needs to know what the unforeseen financial consequences are of the companies’ operations. It needs to have some ability to intervene on behalf of consumers—business as well as individual consumers—if it thinks that something has gone seriously wrong. At the moment, those powers are not sufficient.
I would like to see a measure like this on the statute book; I would not envisage that Ofwat would very often use it, but the experience of the past 10 years—it may well be exactly the opposite experience in the next 10 years as far as the cost of capital is concerned—leads me to think that there is a gap somewhere in Ofwat’s powers. We need to address that somewhere in this Bill and I am sorry that the Minister is not prepared to take it away and look at it in this context. I will withdraw the amendment, but this is something to which we might need to return in a slightly different form. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord De Mauley
“3A In section 2A (strategic priorities and objectives: England) (inserted by section 24), in subsection (4)(d), for “licensed water suppliers” there is substituted “water supply licensees and sewerage licensees”.
3B In section 2B (strategic priorities and objectives: Wales) (inserted by section 24), in subsection (4)(d), for “licensed water suppliers” there is substituted “water supply licensees”.”
“4A (1) Section 10 (transitional provision with respect to replacement appointments) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (2), for “and (4)” there is substituted “to (4)”.
(3) After subsection (3) there is inserted—
“(3A) To the extent that charging rules issued under section 144ZA relate to charges imposed or security required by a relevant undertaker under section 185, those rules are to apply in relation to the new undertaker as if the appointment or variation had come into force.”.”
( ) in the opening words, for “the licensed water supplier” there is substituted “the water supply licensee”;”
Lord Whitty
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I will not detain the Committee too long on this one. When I saw this provision, it jumped out of the page at me because the Bill seems to delete the requirement to provide mapping of flood vulnerability. Having now checked the impact assessment and checked with the Environment Agency, I see that it is clear that the particular clause is not inappropriate in the circumstances, but I thought I would use this opportunity to ask the Minister to tell us, perhaps in writing, what maps are now statutorily required for flood risks.
This issue will arise significantly when we come to discuss, as we will do in the next day of Committee, Flood Re and the properties that are to be covered by that system. The issue also arises in terms of resilience and, for other bodies, in terms of planning decisions, as well as in issues for the insurance industry that go wider than the Flood Re system. While the section that is to be deleted may be redundant, it is important that we ensure that the resources that the Government give the Environment Agency and other bodies are sufficient to provide detailed, robust and accessible maps defining the flood risk around the country.
There is some urgency to the issue because I know that there are, to put it neutrally, constraints on the Environment Agency’s resources in this area. The agency is, probably rightly, trying to focus what resources it has on front-line services. However, if you focus on front-line services in a diminishing budget, you inevitably cut backroom services, some of which are in this area of mapping and prediction—which is done by the Environment Agency but often in conjunction with the Met Office—of where flood risk is likely to arise in future. As I said, I do not expect a detailed argument from tonight’s discussion, but I would like, before we proceed further with the Bill, an indication of what mapping is required and what resources are there to carry it out. I beg to move.
Lord Knight of Weymouth (Lab)
My Lords, briefly, I support my noble friend Lord Whitty in his challenge to the Government and, to some extent, the Environment Agency. At the moment, my home down in Dorset is technically under a flood alert. I can look at maps on the Environment Agency’s website and the detailed data on river levels at the station near to my home which, during this sort of scenario, are updated every few hours. In conjunction with looking at the Met Office website—because I am an experienced watcher of these things—I can predict pretty accurately whether we will flood. I am willing to put on record that I do not think we will flood over the next 24 hours. We put our floodgates up—some of them, but not all of them—but that is mostly because we could not be bothered to take them down from the last time.
This whole business is obviously very worrying for householders. I pay tribute to the Environment Agency for making all the data available so that people like me can, assuming we are online and confident enough to use those tools, make that judgment. However, it is really important that those resources are sustained and, as technology and resource allows, are improved as more and more householders, given climate change, worry more and more about their resilience for flooding.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, when I heard the earlier debate about consolidation and clarifying legislation, I thought that this was a case in point. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, rightly spotted that, too. This amendment allows me to put something on record. The issue is about duplicate records. Our plan is to repeal Section 195 on the basis that a single record is all that is required. The Environment Agency is not aware of any request having been made for the inspection of the duplicate record required by Section 195. Of course, it will continue to maintain its primary and comprehensive sets of data, including maps. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Knight, that public access to this information can be obtained under the Environmental Information Regulations 2004, or for that matter under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. This is a small efficiency and cost saving to the Environment Agency, without detriment to necessary data collection, maintenance or public access. I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, with details of the data held by the Environment Agency. On that basis, I hope he will be happy to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Whitty
I thank the noble Baroness for that and her determination to write to me setting it out. The importance of this is that these maps are there but will change. They will change as a result of development activities, because of climate change and our experience of floods that are supposed to happen once in every 200 years in the Somerset Levels—to return to that topic—but have happened in two years. It is vital that mapping resources are there and accessible to everybody, as they clearly already are to my noble friend Lord Knight. Not everybody has that level of accessibility. We need it, and we need to be assured that the resources can be updated and improved as information changes.
I thank the noble Baroness and the Minister for their patience this afternoon. We will meet again shortly, dealing with floods, in particular. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.