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Oral Answers to Questions
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Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)
1. What savings to the public purse have resulted from changes to the Government estate in the last two years.
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
The moratorium on new leases and on passing over breaks in existing leases has helped us across central Government to save the taxpayer some £278 million from property in just the first 10 months of the coalition Government’s time in office. To date, central Government have got out of more than 900 leases and released freeholds, and last year alone the size of the estate fell by 6%.
Graham Evans
Will my right hon. Friend reassure the House that the Government will get value for taxpayers’ money by ensuring that, wherever possible, the publicly owned freehold estate is used to avoid the need for expensive leases?
Mr Maude
That is exactly our approach. Far too much of the freehold estate is under-occupied and far too many expensive leasehold properties are occupied in a very inefficient way. In Bristol alone we discovered that central Government, in their different forms, occupied 115 separate addresses, which is very inefficient and not at all conducive to joined-up government.
Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab)
As you know, Mr Speaker, we should always watch what Ministers do, rather than simply listening to what they say. The problem with this Minister is that he promised millions of pounds of savings from other Departments while sneakily building up his own empire. In truth, his Department’s agencies had 23,000 square metres of office space when he came to office, but that figure has more than doubled to a staggering 56,000 square metres. Squeezing others while fattening up his own Department is hardly a policy that will incentivise colleagues to reduce their estate. When will he deliver the savings, and not just mythical ones?
Mr Maude
The hon. Gentleman ought to look a little more carefully at the facts. He will see that the National School of Government and the Central Office of Information, which had been part of quangoland under the previous Government, have been brought in-house and so have been closed down.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
May I satisfy the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman and give the Minister for the Cabinet Office good news by suggesting that even more money could be saved by relocating out of London and coming to Wellingborough?
Mr Maude
I am confident that, under my hon. Friend’s benign guidance, Wellingborough is an incredibly good place for people to work. The size of the civil service is falling to its smallest since the second world war and we are reducing the number of people who need to be in central London, but if the opportunity to relocate people out of London arises, I am sure that Wellingborough will have a very good case to make.
Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab)
When it comes to making savings for the public purse, a constituent of mine has written to me: she works for the civil service and is travelling two to three times a week from Nottinghamshire to London to attend meetings that last about an hour. Is that not a ridiculous waste of money, and what are Ministers doing about it?
Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)
2. What steps he plans to take to measure the social impact of Big Society Capital.
Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)
9. What steps he plans to take to measure the social impact of the Big Society Capital.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Hurd)
Big Society Capital exists to make it easier for charities and social enterprises across the UK to access capital. It has two measures of success: growth in social investment and the social impact of its investments. It is required to report annually on both the social and financial performance of those investments.
Sandra Osborne
I thank the Minister for that response. Cathy Pharoah of the Centre for Charitable Giving and Philanthropy has said that Big Society Capital is likely to be biased in favour of safe lending. How will the Minister ensure that smaller projects with higher-risk clients have access to it?
Mr Hurd
Big Society Capital is a fundraising organisation with a social mission and exists to correct a market failure. It will support innovation and grow the new social investment market and will invest across a range of products. All we have asked it to do is ensure that it secures a sufficient return to cover its costs.
Ann McKechin
In a written answer to me on 11 June, the Minister stated:
“The Investment and Contract Readiness Fund applies to England only.”—[Official Report, 11 June 2012; Vol. 546, c. 218W.]
Given that Big Society Capital is for the whole United Kingdom, how will companies in other parts of the country be able to secure the same assistance?
Mr Hurd
Ultimately, that is a matter for the devolved Administrations, but the hon. Lady is right: Big Society Capital has been set up to be available to charities and social enterprises throughout the UK. The investment and contract readiness fund—£10 million of grants—is available to charities and social enterprises in England which want to make themselves more investment-ready, but the policy area is devolved and therefore a matter for the devolved Administrations.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Smaller charities say that they have a harder time accessing capital than the big “Tesco” charities. How can we ensure that the big society benefits the little society?
Mr Hurd
My hon. Friend makes a very good point, which is particularly relevant and valid in small charities week. He is entirely right. Access to capital affects smaller charities more than larger ones, and that is one reason why within two years we have developed and established the world’s first social investment institution, Big Society Capital, which exists to make such capital much easier to access.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
In measuring the impact of Big Society Capital, will the Minister assure the House that the resource will tackle deprivation in hard-to-reach communities, particularly in Northern Ireland, where there are isolated rural communities and 35 scientifically measured areas of disadvantage?
Mr Hurd
I have been to Northern Ireland myself to make the point that Big Society Capital is available to charities and social enterprises there. The honest answer to the hon. Lady’s question is that any outcome depends on the quality of the investment proposition that intermediaries take to Big Society Capital, but we are very keen to engage with charities and social enterprises in Northern Ireland in order to make sure that the measure is as accessible to Northern Ireland as we say we want it to be.
Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
3. What steps he is taking to support civil servants facing redundancy.
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
All Departments are rightly required to maximise opportunities for redeployment within the Government and to make all reasonable efforts to avoid compulsory redundancies. All Departments also have in place appropriate support for those employees affected, including retraining, career coaching and advice, and help with CV writing.
Mr Maude
As I said a little earlier, the size of the civil service has already fallen to its smallest since the second world war, and there will be further downsizing, as we have made clear. The resignation rate of senior civil servants is stable: there is no higher turnover than before.
Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend confirm that next week the Government are going to publish their civil service reform plan, and that this issue may be one that the plan addresses as the Government try to set out a clear change programme for the whole of government?
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
4. What steps he is taking to encourage small and medium-sized enterprises to bid for Government contracts.
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
It is our aim and aspiration that by the end of this Parliament 25% of central Government spend with outside providers should be with small and medium-sized enterprises. We have launched a series of radical measures to simplify the procurement process in order to make it easier and cheaper for all companies to see the business available with the Government and to bid and compete effectively. Our direct spend with SMEs since the Labour party left office is already on track to double.
Jason McCartney
How can SMEs in my constituency find out more about how to do more business with the Government?[Official Report, 18 June 2012, Vol. 546, c. 3-4MC.]
Mr Maude
By looking at the Contracts Finder website, which is the main source of Government contracts over £100,000. That is the place where they should look, and I hope that they will, but since February 2011, when we announced our new approach, about a third of new contracts have already been awarded to SMEs.
Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)
Will the Minister advise the House on what help or education have been given to small and medium-sized businesses regarding online e-procurement? Many small businesses in my constituency find it quite challenging to go online.
Mr Maude
I will look into that, but the hon. Gentleman might like to bring some of those suppliers to me to talk through the difficulties, because we want to make the process as easy as possible. Suppliers tell me that bidding for public sector contracts costs them typically four times as much as bidding for private sector contracts. The changes that we are making will radically reduce that, but we want to make sure that the process works, so I should be grateful for his help.
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
According to the Federation of Small Businesses, 40% of businesses still say that the tendering process is too complex. There are some very good messages in the procurement pledge on the website that the Minister mentioned. What steps is he taking to encourage people to adopt the principles of the pledge?
Mr Maude
That is policy within central Government, and it should happen, although I am not for a moment claiming that it is universal yet. We want to hear about procurements that are not being done in the right way. In the wider public sector, we can do no more than exhort and encourage, and we will do so. However, it remains the case that if we are alerted to procurements being done in the old-fashioned way, which is very antagonistic to small businesses, we will intervene. We have got a number of those changed for the better.
Michael Dugher (Barnsley East) (Lab)
The latest official figures continue to show that the proportion of procurement spend going to SMEs is decreasing in the majority of Government Departments. A recent survey by the FSB found that 40% of SMEs believe that the tendering process is too complicated, while 37% believe that they are being “sidelined” by the Government. Does the Minister agree with Mark Thompson, an adviser to his own Department, who said:
“The reality is, government has very little idea of how to deal with SMEs and has very little in the way in terms of concrete plans here”?
Mr Maude
The main change is that for the first time there are official figures for this spend—the previous Government did not even bother to count it—and the numbers are going up. Obviously within each Department there will not necessarily be an even progress all the time—I would have thought that even the hon. Gentleman ought to be able to understand that—but across the whole of Government spend with SMEs has doubled. I would hope that he would enthusiastically welcome that.
Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
5. What steps he is taking to reduce the administrative and regulatory burdens that affects the number of people who volunteer.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Hurd)
We want to make it much easier to volunteer, so we are implementing most of the recommendations in Lord Hodgson’s excellent report, “Unshackling Good Neighbours”. To identify any remaining burdens, we have launched the civil society red tape challenge and have urged the sector and the public to contribute by visiting the challenge website.
Mr Spencer
In Sherwood, many people are put off volunteering by unnecessary Criminal Records Bureau checks. Will the Minister update the House on how we can reduce that burden?
Mr Hurd
That is a frustration felt in many constituencies. My hon. Friend will be aware that changes are under way. There are two major thrusts of change: many fewer people will require checks; and those who do will find it much easier to carry those checks around the system—the portability for which people have been asking for some time. Those changes will largely be in place by next spring, and I am sure that they will be as welcome in Sherwood as they will in Ruislip.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
This issue has come up repeatedly. Does the Minister accept that in the coming years the red tape challenge will be judged on the numbers of people who are involved in volunteering and the verdict of those who want to volunteer?
Mr Hurd
All I know is that it is incumbent on Government to get out of the way as much as they can. Many areas of regulation are too intrusive and take up too much time and money that could be better used. I think that there is cross-party support for wanting to encourage more people to get involved, and if the Government can get out of the way, then we should.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
6. What progress he has made on his plans to place civil service pensions on a sustainable footing.
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
We are committed to ensuring that the reform of public sector pensions means that public servants will continue to receive pensions that are among the very best available. These now provide a fair deal for public service workers while being an affordable deal for the taxpayer and a good deal for the country that is sustainable in the long term. We have spent months negotiating a new scheme that was put to the civil service unions some months ago. I am pleased that four unions have now accepted the proposals.
Andrew Bridgen
I am sure that the 85% of the work force in my constituency who work in the private sector will welcome that response given that their pensions are, on average, far less generous than those available in the public sector, which they are also expected to fund. Will my right hon. Friend give the House an estimate of the sum that the taxpayer would be expected to pay for public sector pensions over the next 25 years if these reforms did not take place?
Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)
7. What discussions Ministers in his Department have had with their ministerial colleagues on charitable donations.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Hurd)
We liaise regularly with other Departments in the development of our agenda to encourage more giving of both time and money.
Seema Malhotra
Research from New Philanthropy Capital has revealed that 65% of charities are being forced to cut front-line services. In addition, after the way in which the tax relief proposal was handled, the expert Alana Lowe-Patraske said:
“It remains to be seen if donors and charities trust this government on philanthropy”.
Will the Minister update the House on how the Government will repair their relationships with charities?
Mr Hurd
I think the hon. Lady will find that most people in the sector and most commentators recognise and welcome the Chancellor’s change of mind on that. They also recognise that this is a Government absolutely committed to creating the conditions for charities and social enterprises to do more. That includes supporting more giving of time and money through initiatives such as the social action fund, through various match funding and through some generous tax incentives—
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
I commend the Government for their actions following the consultations on taxation and charitable donations, but may I urge the Minister to look again at the gift aid structure, and perhaps to consider a transfer to a system whereby individuals can deduct their charitable donations from their tax directly?
Mr Hurd
Gift aid and all matters relating to tax are a Treasury matter. My hon. Friend will be aware that gift aid is under constant review, and in the 2011 Budget some welcome initiatives were brought in to make gift aid easier to claim for small charities and small donations.
Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)
8. What recent assessment he has made of the work of the behavioural insights team.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Hurd)
The team is headed by a steering board which is chaired by the Cabinet Secretary. In September 2011 the team published an annual update of its first year, and a two-year sunset review will be conducted by the board in summer 2012.
Caroline Dinenage
What financial saving does the Minister estimate has so far been made by this initiative?
Mr Hurd
The team does some very interesting work on encouraging behaviour to change in cost-effective ways. If my hon. Friend looks at the annual report, she will see some good examples. For instance, by slightly changing the wording in letters sent out by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to self-assessment taxpayers who owed money, the team increased payment rates from 68% to 83%, which is estimated to lead to savings of £30 million a year in administrative and court costs if rolled out across the country.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
10. What steps he has taken to ensure clarity and efficiency in the delivery of policy across Government.
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
On 31 May we published business plans for 17 Government Departments, which clearly set out the actions that Departments will take to implement the Government’s reform priorities and by when. The No. 10 website publishes monthly updates on which actions have been completed and which are overdue.
Debbie Abrahams
Will the Minister explain how one Government policy operating in direct conflict with another—for example, the withdrawal of the right to flexible working conflicting with support for carers—amounts to efficiency?
Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con)
11. What steps he is taking to reduce fraud in Government procurement.
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
We are committed to tackling fraud and error in all areas of Government business, including public procurement. We believe that we can save the taxpayer billions of pounds a year by doing that across Government. Every central Government body will carry out a spend recovery audit by the end of next year, which should generate savings of between £50 million and £100 million. The Home Office and the Department for Transport have already recovered significant amounts by doing this.
Mr Carswell
In welcoming the greater efficiencies and economies of scale that come from centralised procurement, does my right hon. Friend recognise the danger that centralised procurement can, in effect, throw up barriers to entry for smaller suppliers? Might this not help to explain why small and medium-sized enterprises are not always getting their fair share?
Mr Maude
As I said earlier, SMEs are increasing their share of Government business. It has doubled since the election and is set to continue further. I point my hon. Friend to what happened with the Government’s aggregated travel contract when we brought it together: one of the two contracts for travel across the whole of Government was won by a small business, which is rapidly becoming a bigger one.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
My responsibilities are the public sector Efficiency and Reform Group, civil service issues, the industrial relations strategy in the public sector, government transparency, civil contingencies, civil society and cyber security.
Duncan Hames
In March, Ministers confirmed in this place that the Department was conducting a review into the long-term funding challenges facing the charity advice sector, as was promised to me by the Prime Minister last October. Will the Minister tell the House and the busy advisers, such as those at Wiltshire’s citizens advice bureau, what conclusions he has reached?
Mr Maude
Advice providers, like other parts of the voluntary sector, are facing a difficult funding situation. In the Budget, the Chancellor made £20 million available in each of the next two years to support the not-for-profit advice sector as it adapts. Our transition fund also provides support to 45 CABs and 17 law centres, and the Ministry of Justice is increasing funding for mediation services by £15 million to encourage greater use of mediation in disputes.
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
Twelve months ago, the Minister for the Cabinet Office gave the Work programme as an example of the big society in action. A year on, some of the charities that signed up originally have gone bust and almost 100 have withdrawn their welfare-to-work expertise from the programme completely. Is this yet another example of the lack of leadership from Cabinet Office Ministers for charities across Whitehall, or can we finally expect some action to sort this mess out?
Mr Maude
I do not know from that question whether the hon. Gentleman believes it is right for social enterprises to play a major role in the provision of public services. We do, and more than 500 social enterprises and voluntary organisations are involved in the supply chain. I would have thought that he welcomed that.
Mr Speaker
Order. Far too many noisy private conversations are taking place in the Chamber. Let us have a bit of order for Nicola Blackwood.
Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con)
T6. I am sure that the Minister will join me in applauding the work of the Archway Foundation, which for 30 years has been combating loneliness in my constituency. Like many charities, it is struggling increasingly with excessive regulation. What steps is he taking to combat red tape to let charities do what they do best, which is to help those who are most in need in our communities?
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Hurd)
I am delighted to congratulate the Archway Foundation on its work. My hon. Friend is right that there is too much that gets in the way of charities and voluntary organisations in doing their work. That is why we are undertaking what is probably the most comprehensive review of the regulation and legislation that affects the sector.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
T2. The Department for Work and Pensions has no right to data. Absurdly, its Ministers have banned Work programme providers from publishing any data on their performance. That is the opposite of this Minister’s open data policy. What is he doing about it?
Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)
T7. What assessment has the Minister made of last year’s National Citizen Service pilots?
Mr Hurd
Independent research has shown that more than 8,000 teenagers committed almost 250,000 hours of service to their communities last year, that the customer satisfaction rating among the teenagers who took part was 93%, and that the benefit-cost ratio was 2:1. That was a good start and I encourage all colleagues of all parties to get involved with the NCS in their constituencies this summer. It is a fantastic opportunity for their young constituents.
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
T3. The Government came to power promising a bonfire of the quangos. Will the Minister confirm, however, that the Health and Social Care Act 2012 creates more quangos than the Public Bodies Act 2011 abolished?
Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con)
T9. The Minister for the Cabinet Office must be praised for his efforts in driving forward the open data agenda, through which dusty Government datasets are beginning to provide the jobs and economic growth that the country so desperately needs. What further measures does he have in mind to open up such dusty public sector datasets?
Mr Maude
My hon. Friend has been a formidable, expert and passionate advocate of the open data agenda. Open data are the new raw material and can drive a huge amount of business growth. The Government are already the world leader in opening up data, but there is more to come. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. It is very unfair on the Minister that he is not being heard. He should be heard, as should all Members.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
T4. The Government have sold off 250 freeholds of the nation’s buildings and land. If they are going to continue to do that, will the Minister ensure that there is a covenant in the conveyancing to ensure that the public have access to public land?
Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)
Q1. If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 13 June.
The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
I am sure the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to the servicemen who have fallen since the House last met, Captain Stephen Healey and Corporal Michael Thacker of 1st Battalion the Royal Welsh and Private Gregg Stone of 3rd Battalion the Yorkshire Regiment. They were talented, dedicated soldiers who made the ultimate sacrifice for the safety of our nation. Our deepest condolences are with their families, their friends and their colleagues. We will always remember them.
This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, and in addition to my duties in this House I shall have further such meetings later today.
Zac Goldsmith
I am sure all Members will wish to associate themselves with the Prime Minister’s tribute.
Can the Prime Minister reassure my constituents that for as long as he is the Prime Minister, there will be no policy shift at all in relation to the third runway at Heathrow, and that this Government will focus their attention on improving Heathrow’s hub status by expanding links between London airports and displacing some of the short-haul and less valuable slots elsewhere?
The Prime Minister
I know that this is not just a constituency campaign for my hon. Friend but something he feels very powerfully about. I can tell him that the coalition position has not changed, but clearly we must not be blind to two important considerations: how we expand airport capacity overall, and how we ensure that Heathrow operates better and that we welcome people to our country better than we are at the moment. A lot of progress has been made on that agenda, and I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on the extra resources and people that have been put into doing that important job.
Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)
I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Captain Stephen Healey and Corporal Michael Thacker of 1st Battalion the Royal Welsh and Private Gregg Stone of 3rd Battalion the Yorkshire Regiment. They served their country with dignity and bravery, and the condolences of the whole House go to their family and friends.
Can the Prime Minister tell us why he referred Baroness Warsi to the independent adviser on ministerial interests but not the Culture Secretary?
The Prime Minister
Yes; I think there is a very significant difference between the two cases. In the case of Baroness Warsi, there has not been a judge-led inquiry, with witnesses taking evidence under oath, to get to all the factual information behind her case. That is why I have asked Sir Alex Allan to look at the case and establish some of the facts. I have to say, I am entirely happy with the explanation that I have been given by Baroness Warsi. She admits to breaking the ministerial code and has apologised for it, and I think that is a very important point.
Edward Miliband
The Prime Minister refers to the Leveson inquiry, but can he confirm that, in his appearance there, the Culture Secretary was quite properly—it is not the remit of the Leveson inquiry—not asked a single question about whether he misled this House and thereby broke the ministerial code?
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman asks specifically why I have not referred the case to Sir Alex Allan. As he knows, I have not done that, but I have asked Sir Alex Allan for his advice on future guidance on, for instance, quasi-judicial decision making, which the right hon. Gentleman discussed at the Leveson inquiry and which I will discuss tomorrow as well. Sir Alex Allan has replied to my letter. I will put a copy of both letters in the Library of the House, but the House might want to know what he said:
“I note your decision in relation to Jeremy Hunt’s adherence to the Ministerial Code which is of course a matter for you.”
He went on:
“The fact that there is an on-going judicial inquiry probing and taking evidence under oath means that I do not believe I could usefully add to the facts in this case”.
He went on to say that he remains available if circumstances should change, but those are the views of Sir Alex Allan.
Edward Miliband
The key issue is who makes the judgment on whether there has been a breach of the ministerial code. This is what Lord Leveson said on 10 May:
“I will not be making a judgment on whether there has been a breach of it, that is simply not my job”.
In other words, it is the job of Sir Alex Allan.
Let us take one of the issues that was—[Interruption.] I can see that Conservative Members have been well whipped today. They obviously got the memo from the Prime Minister’s aide, who is sending memos round. The last one began: “Comrades”—[Laughter.] I like the sound of that. “We need a protective wall of sound. Last week we rather dried up. Please show sufficient stamina for the full half hour.”
Let us take one of the issues that was not raised at the Leveson inquiry. On 25 April, the Culture Secretary told the House: “I made absolutely”—[Interruption.] There is no point in the part-time Chancellor trying to give the Prime Minister the answer before I have asked the question. The Culture Secretary told the House:
“I made absolutely no interventions”
in “a quasi-judicial” process
“that was at that time the responsibility of the Secretary of State for Business”,
yet we now know that he wrote a memo to the Prime Minister that said:
“If we block it our media sector will suffer for years.”
Will the Prime Minister confirm that the Culture Secretary, in his answer from 25 April, was not straight with this House of Commons?
The Prime Minister
Let me first explain that, on the Government side of the House, “comrades” is a term of endearment, not an official title—[Interruption.] Liberal Democrat Members are also comrades.
The point is that it is the job of the Prime Minister to make the judgment about ministerial code. I have made that judgment. I have quoted what Sir Alex Allan has said. He was very clear that he could not
“usefully add to the facts in this case”.
I am sorry that the political strategy behind the right hon. Gentleman’s Opposition motion has collapsed, but that is the fact of the case.
The right hon. Gentleman asked specifically about the note that the Culture Secretary sent to me on 19 November, in which he specifically says that it would be completely wrong to go against the proper regulatory procedures. The truth of what has happened in recent days is that the Culture Secretary gave a very full account of his actions to the Leveson inquiry, and demonstrated that, when it came to the BSkyB bid, he took independent advice at every part of the process and followed independent advice at every stage of the process, which is a complete contrast to how the previous Government behaved.
Edward Miliband
Let us be clear about what the Prime Minister is claiming. The Culture Secretary told the House:
“I made absolutely no interventions seeking to influence a quasi-judicial decision”.—[Official Report, 25 April 2012; Vol. 973, c. 543.]
The Prime Minister is claiming that a memo to the Prime Minister is somehow an insignificant document in relation to a decision that the Government must make. It is the first time in political history that that is the case.
If the Prime Minister’s case is so strong, why is the Deputy Prime Minister not supporting him?
The Prime Minister
Let me read exactly what the note from the Culture Secretary from 19 November states:
“It would be totally wrong for the government to get involved in a competition issue which has to be decided at arm’s length.”
When he got responsibility for the dossier, he behaved in exactly that way.
By the way, the whole reason we are discussing this takeover is that the previous Government changed the law to allow a foreign company to own a British broadcasting licence. Labour Members conveniently forget that point.
The Leader of the Opposition asked specifically about the Deputy Prime Minister. Let me be frank: we are talking about the relationships that Conservative politicians and Labour politicians have had over the past 20 years with News Corporation, News International and all the rest of it. To be fair to the Liberal Democrats, they did not have that relationship. Their abstention tonight will make that point. I understand that: it is politics—[Interruption.]
Edward Miliband
I have to say that the right hon. Gentleman has reached a new state of delusion—really and truly. He just wants to talk about the past—he was the future once. The Deputy Prime Minister says that the decision should go to the independent adviser, the Conservative chair of the Select Committee on Public Administration says it should be referred and the former chair of the Committee on Standards in Public Life says that it should be referred—is it not the truth that the reason the Prime Minister will not refer the Culture Secretary to the independent adviser is that he is scared that the Culture Secretary will not be cleared?
The Prime Minister
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. The right hon. Gentleman says that we are talking about the past, but some elements of the Leveson inquiry and the relationship between politicians and the press are about the past. We had a little insight into that when the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), gave evidence. In an extraordinary moment, he said that
“the one thing I can say”—
the one thing—
“definitely is that nobody in my position would have instructed…briefing against a senior minister”.
Perhaps the victims could put their hands up. Any takers? I do not need Sir Alex Allan to adjudicate on that one.
Edward Miliband
The reality is that everyone knows that it was the Prime Minister who decided to appoint the Culture Secretary to oversee the bid and it is the Prime Minister who is clinging on to him now in the face of all the evidence. Does he not realise that it is no longer about the Culture Secretary’s judgment but about the Prime Minister’s, which is so badly flawed that even his deputy will not support him?
The Prime Minister
I hope that the England football team is better at putting the ball in the back of the net. The point is that it is for the adviser on ministerial standards to discover the facts and for the Prime Minister to make the judgment. My judgment is that we should let the Culture Secretary get on with organising the most important event, which is the Olympics. As we are on the Olympics, let us consider this: if there was an Olympic medal for double standards and rank hypocrisy, the Labour party would be well in the running.
Mr Speaker
I call Mr Nigel Adams—[Interruption.] I am really very worried about the conduct of the Education Secretary. In the average classroom, he would have been excluded by now. He must calm himself.
Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)
Q2. As we remember those who fell 30 years ago during the Falklands war, Argentina continues to dispute British sovereignty over those islands yet continues to receive loans worth billions of pounds from the World Bank, in which British taxpayers are a major shareholder. Will the Prime Minister join President Obama in instructing his officials to vote against any more such loans to Argentina?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an important point. No British taxpayers’ money is spent on World Bank loans to Argentina, and I think that that is an important point, but what is even more important is what happened yesterday. The Falkland islanders have decided that they will hold a referendum to demonstrate that they believe in self-determination. That is important because Argentina continues to try to hide the argument and to pretend that the views of the Falkland islanders do not matter. They do matter; I hope that they will speak loudly and clearly and that Argentina will listen.
Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)
Q3. The Prime Minister just said that he believes that the Leveson inquiry dealt with all the relevant issues regarding the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, but it did not deal with section 118 of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000, which deals with market abuse and the passing of information to one party that is not available to others in a market situation. Given the hundreds of texts, e-mails and memos in this case, will he ask the Financial Services Authority to examine the evidence and see whether there has been a breach of section 118 or any part of that Act?
The Prime Minister
Clearly there are very strict rules, including the stock exchange code and the Act that the right hon. Gentleman mentions, governing all of these areas. The point I would make to him is that there is no doubt that the special adviser did behave wrongly. That is why he offered his resignation and that is why it was accepted.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
Q4. I am sure that all hon. Members will congratulate the volunteers who raised £6.5 million to recognise the contribution and sacrifice by Bomber Command personnel in the second world war. The memorial will be opened by Her Majesty the Queen on 28 June, but the costs for security on the day have risen sharply. Despite necessary constraints on all Government expenditure, will my right hon. Friend consider financial support from the Government to ensure that veterans and their relations are properly looked after?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is right to raise this issue. Many people served in Bomber Command during the second world war and many lost their lives, so it is right that there will be this splendid memorial, unveiled by Her Majesty the Queen. These memorials tend to be paid for by public subscription and that is what has happened in this case, but I will look carefully at what my hon. Friend says. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport does have the ability to intervene, especially when monuments and other things are done on a national basis for a national purpose. I am sure that the Culture Secretary will have listened carefully to what my hon. Friend said.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
Q5. Because of top-down Government health cuts, South Tees hospitals such as the Friarage and Guisborough hospitals in my constituency have had reduced services, leaving both hospitals uncertain of their future. Therefore, will the Prime Minister support his Foreign Secretary, who said to a crowd of 4,000 people that the Government NHS cuts are “unacceptable”?
The Prime Minister
I would point out that the increase in health spending for the hon. Gentleman’s primary care trust is 2.9%, a £8.2 million increase for the current year—[Interruption.] That is what is happening. The only reason more money is going into the health service in his constituency is because this coalition Government decided to invest in our NHS, against the advice that we received from the Opposition, who think that increases in health spending are “irresponsible”.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Q6. If he will hold a future Cabinet meeting in Kettering.
The Prime Minister
As my hon. Friend knows, Cabinet meetings are occasionally held outside London, not least so that we can get Cabinet Ministers to different parts of the country to meet all sorts of different organisations. The Cabinet has so far met in Bradford, Derby, Ipswich, Cardiff and the Olympic park. Locations for future meetings—including, I hope, the east midlands—will be announced in due course.
Mr Hollobone
Were the Cabinet to come to Kettering, it would be able to congratulate Kettering borough council on its pledge to freeze its council tax for the next five years, and to celebrate the £210 million funding from the Department for Transport for the widening of the Kettering A14 bypass. But will my right hon. Friend also commit to upgrade and electrify the midland main line, a project that enjoys cross-party support and that would make a big difference to the Kettering economy?
The Prime Minister
I certainly join my hon. Friend in congratulating his borough council. That commitment on council tax is remarkable and shows what value-for-money services Conservative councils can provide. We are committed to electrifying more than 300 miles of railway routes, which compares with just nine miles that were electrified in the 13 years of the last Labour Government. There is a large amount of support for the midland main line electrification and the decision will depend on whether it is affordable and on assessing competing priorities, but I will listen very carefully—as I know the Treasury will too—to what he says.
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
Given that the purpose of the Leveson inquiry is to get at the unvarnished truth about the unhealthy relationship between some politicians and the media, why do Government Ministers, including the Prime Minister, need to be briefed and coached by lawyers before attending to give evidence?
The Prime Minister
What Ministers, I am sure, are doing, as I have done, is refamiliarise themselves with a huge amount of evidence going back over seven years. For instance, I have provided to the Leveson inquiry all the evidence I can find of meetings with press editors, proprietors and the rest going back to December 2005. There is a huge amount of information preparation, which I think is entirely appropriate.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
Q7. My constituency has a high recycling rate—the best in the north-west—so does the Prime Minister believe it right for a huge waste-burning incinerator to be built there? The incinerator was rejected by the local planning board, is overwhelmingly opposed by my constituents in Middlewich and would involve transporting lorry-loads of waste hundreds of miles across the country. Will he do what he can to prevent an inappropriate development that surely cannot be called environmentally sustainable or an example of true localism?
The Prime Minister
I completely understand my hon. Friend’s concern; she is right to raise this issue and I can understand her disappointment that the local planning board’s decision was appealed against. As she knows, however, appeals against a decision on such a planning application can be made to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. She can make her views clear. It would be inappropriate to prejudge any decision that he might take, but obviously there is a need to take into account the size and scale of any proposed development and to consider the potential effect on any local community. I am sure that she will want to make those points.
Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)
Q15. The Prime Minister will be aware of the latest British social attitudes survey showing a record fall in public satisfaction with the NHS. I would like to know—I would appreciate an answer because his Health Secretary would not give me one yesterday—whether the Prime Minister will intervene to stop the scandal of the NHS having to reply on charitable donations to fund the purchase of the latest advanced radiotherapy equipment in regions such as mine, the north-east, and throughout the country?
The Prime Minister
The Government are putting record sums into the health service—we are increasing the money going into the health service—but if the hon. Gentleman wants me to stand here and criticise the volunteers, the charities and the big society, which provide so many scanners and great machines for our health service, I certainly will not. It adds to our health service. He raised, in particular, the survey. There is a 2011 survey of people who have actually used the health service, rather than one that asks people about their perceptions, and it found that 92% of in-patients rated their overall experience as good, very good or excellent. That is what is happening in our health service, and we should be proud of it.
Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con)
Q8. Will the Government go ahead with High Speed 2? The project is extremely important to the economy and jobs in the north. If the answer is yes, I suggest we start laying the track in west Yorkshire first.
The Prime Minister
I am grateful for that enthusiastic endorsement. I believe that we should go ahead with HS2. It is important for the country’s economy, and it is important that we get on board this high-speed rail revolution. It links to the question asked by my hon. Friend’s neighbour, as it were, my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), about Heathrow. Many flights could be avoided if we had a network of high-speed rail in our country, and I am keen to press ahead.
Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab)
Q9. Before the last general election, the Prime Minister made an important speech condemning crony capitalism, “with money buying power, power fishing for money, and a cosy club at the top making decisions in their own interest.”Is that not a pitch-perfect description of the undignified courting of News Corporation by the Culture Secretary? When will the Prime Minister show some judgment on this?
The Prime Minister
If they are looking for volunteers for the Olympic team for hypocrisy, I think we might have the decathlete. We had 13 years of pyjama parties, christenings, changing the law and sucking up to the Murdochs. Honestly, what a lot of brass neck!
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
Q10. In 44 days, the Olympics and Paralympics come to London, and millions of people will be coming to London to enjoy the games. Most of them will be totally dependent on public transport to reach the venues. Will my right hon. Friend condemn the Unite union for calling bus strikes, and does not the silence from the Labour party on this subject speak volumes about their attitude to Londoners?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is entirely right. If we want an example of crony politics, frankly, it is the fact that the party opposite gets £5 million from the Unite union, and when it comes to this strike, which could disrupt the Olympics, we have had absolute silence—not a word of condemnation. It is not surprising, because the Unite union does not just give the Labour party the money; it picks its leader as well.
Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
The patient satisfaction survey results have shown the greatest reduction in patient satisfaction in the history of the national health service. What will the Prime Minister do to turn around perceptions of the failure of the NHS under his Government?
The Prime Minister
The King’s Fund, which carried out this survey, says:
“There is no evidence of a real decline in service quality or performance”.
That is what the King’s Fund says about its own survey. Frankly, I would put more weight on a survey of people who have actually been using the NHS. As I said, of the users of the NHS, 92% of in-patients and 95% of out-patients rated their overall experience as good, very good or excellent. I do not think that is surprising, because since the election there are 4,000 more doctors, mixed-sex accommodation is down 96%, hospital infections are at their lowest levels since surveillance began, the number of people waiting more than 18 weeks is also at its lowest since records began, and average waiting times are down as well. The health service is performing extremely well and we should praise all those who have delivered that performance.
Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)
Q11. As a constituency MP, the Prime Minister will be aware of the current shortage in primary school places across our country. It is particularly acute in Winchester right now, where temporary classrooms are the order of the day, to accommodate reception year pupils for this September. May I ask the Prime Minister what the Government are doing to help councils in this bulge year, and whether he is confident that enough is being done to prevent a repeat performance when those pupils reach secondary school in six years’ time?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend raises an important point. I know that in certain constituencies this is becoming an issue. What the Department for Education has done is put aside £1.4 billion of schools capital for 2011-12 and a further £1.4 billion for the subsequent year. There is also the opportunity, through free schools, to have excellent new schools established in hon. Members’ constituencies, so that we get not only new capacity, but the competition and choice that I believe will help to drive up standards.
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)
The use of food banks in Plymouth has gone up, from 790 food banks to nearly 4,000 in a year. Is the Prime Minister proud of the fact that it is his changes to benefit arrangements which are causing this to happen—there is no doubt about that—and is he therefore going to stand up and say, “Yes, that’s fine; food banks are lovely”? Yes, they are lovely, and the people of Plymouth are magnificent in the way they feed in to those, but will he pass the buck on this, and go for a gold medal in passing the buck, as he has over the Culture Secretary—
The Prime Minister
First, let me join the hon. Lady in praising people in Plymouth, who obviously do a huge amount for their neighbours and members of their community. That is all to the good. What I would say is yes, we have had to make difficult decisions, but we have actually protected tax credits for the least well-off and we have protected benefits for the least well-off. However, I have to say that the biggest welfare reform that we have made is to put a cap on welfare, where we have said that people should not be able to get on welfare more than the average family gets in work, which is £26,500 a year. However, when we put that forward, the Labour party voted against it.
Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)
Q12. Can my right hon. Friend tell the House how much it would have cost this country to take part in the bail-out of Spain’s banks this week if he had not stood up for Britain and got us out of the previous Government’s commitments?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an important point. Before this Government came to power, bail-outs were carried out with Britain playing a full part—often by as much as 14% of the total—so in a €100 billion bail-out of Spain, Britain could have been paying as much as €14 billion, or £10 billion. That money has been saved because this Government, unlike the last one, stand up for Britain in Europe.
Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
Prime Minister, an omnishambles of Budget that you claimed you had read line by line; a double-dip recession that you made in Downing street; and a Tory-led Committee reporting that the coalition “lacks strategic direction”—evidence, if ever it was needed, that men can multi-task. It is just, obviously, that some are not very good at it. Prime Minister, have you now run out of steam, or is the job just too big for you?
The Prime Minister
I am very pleased that my right hon. Friend the Education Secretary is introducing compulsory poetry reading lessons in class. Perhaps we could start with the hon. Gentleman. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. What is rude is for people to continue shouting when they have been asked not to do so. I know that the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) is exceptionally well behaved, and I know that he will sit in his usual quiet, respectful fashion.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
Q13. The Prime Minister has called for compassion for my constituent, Gary McKinnon, who doctors report is likely to take his life if he is extradited. The Deputy Prime Minister has also said that it would be cruel to extradite him. Will the Government be true to their word and stop the extradition and, finally, after 10 years, give Gary McKinnon his life back?
The Prime Minister
I know that my hon. Friend has campaigned long and hard on this issue. As he knows, the Home Secretary is carefully considering a wide range of material before making her decision. She has instructed two independent medical experts to view the various reports that have been submitted in this case. She will make her decision as quickly as possible, but this is not an easy case. A number of difficult issues have to be considered before she makes that announcement.
Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab)
The popular NHS walk-in centre in my constituency has recently closed, and similar walk-in centres are closing all over the country. Why?
The Prime Minister
It is certainly not because the money in the NHS is being cut, because it is not being cut. The money in the NHS is being increased. If we had followed the hon. Lady’s advice, however, the money would be going down. What matters is that the money in the NHS is spent to deliver better health outcomes, and I think that that is a decision that needs to be taken locally.
James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con)
Q14. Given the fascinating evidence that was presented by his predecessor to the Leveson inquiry, does the Prime Minister agree that it would be overwhelmingly in the public interest to publish the Downing street phone records, so that we can finally establish what conversations took place between his predecessor and Rupert Murdoch?
The Prime Minister
As my hon. Friend knows, Governments cannot release information provided by previous Governments, but I am sure that this is an issue that the previous Prime Minister will want to consider, given the very clear statement that he made.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
The Prime Minister will probably not be aware that a firm in my constituency, Niche Drinks, produces cream liqueurs and other intermediate alcohol products. I do not know whether he ever chillaxes with such commodities. The company has recently planned a £10 million investment, and more than 40% of its exports are outside the EU. However, it and other similar firms on this island are worried that Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is reinterpreting how to treat their products for duty purposes, under pressure from the European Commission following its erroneous interpretation of a European Court of Justice ruling in 2009. Will the Prime Minister ensure that a competent Treasury Minister meets me and other interested MPs to ensure that common sense and consistency prevail?
The Prime Minister
I have not tried one of those delicious-sounding beverages. If it is all right with the hon. Gentleman, I will wait until after tomorrow before doing so. I understand that there is an issue with HMRC, and I would be very happy to arrange a meeting between him and a Treasury Minister so that they can look carefully at this issue.
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
Unprecedented levels of flooding hit the north Ceredigion communities at the weekend, causing untold damage to households, businesses and infrastructure. I thank the Prime Minister for his words of support to my constituents, and I know that he is aware of the speed with which Ceredigion county council, the emergency services and many in the local community rallied to ensure that there was no loss of life. Will he urge all the insurance companies to act on this matter now, with renewed speed, so that we can get the communities back on their feet as quickly as possible?
The Prime Minister
I certainly join my hon. Friend in praising the emergency services, which did a superb job at the weekend. I asked the Secretary of State for Wales and the Welsh First Minister to pass on my best wishes for the work that the emergency services had done. It was remarkable work. In all these flood situations, there is a rescue and emergency part, followed by a recovery phase. In many ways, the most difficult phase to get right is when people are going back into soaked homes with peeling plaster and all the other problems. That is when we need to ensure that they get swift action in the form of help from their district council and, above all, from the insurance companies. I will certainly work with my hon. Friend to ensure that that happens in this case.
Falkland Islands Referendum
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)
With permission, I wish to inform the House that the Government of the Falkland Islands announced their intention yesterday to hold a referendum on the political status of the islands. This decision, which was taken by the Falkland Islanders themselves through their elected representatives, has the full support of the British Government. The referendum will be organised by the Falkland Islands Government and will take place in the first half of 2013. Independent international observers will be invited to observe the process.
In the past, the Falkland Islanders have made it clear that they wish to remain a self-governing British overseas territory, and to continue living in the same peaceful and neighbourly manner that has characterised their long history on the islands, stretching back some nine generations. They have no interest in becoming a province of Argentina.
Regrettably, however, not everyone has been willing to accept this reality. The Argentine Defence Minister recently accused the UK military of holding the islanders as hostages, while Argentina’s ambassador to this country has claimed that the islanders would be quite happy living under Argentine rule, apparently on the basis that some of them have been on holidays to Argentina.
The islanders regularly rebut these baseless allegations and have recently embarked on an extensive campaign of public diplomacy around Latin America and more widely to ensure that their views are better known. The Foreign Office has offered extensive support to the islanders in doing so. Despite this, the Argentine Government continue either to misrepresent the views of the Falklanders or to dismiss them as irrelevant.
Elsewhere in the region, the islanders have often been surprised by the lack of understanding about their wishes and their outlook on life. It is because of this that the islanders have decided to hold a referendum to eliminate any possible doubt in the eyes of the world as to what future they want. That will provide a legal, fair and decisive means for the people of the Falkland Islands to express their views.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), who is responsible for the Falklands, is in Port Stanley today and has discussed the matter in detail with the islanders’ elected representatives. They are excited about the prospect of showing the region and, indeed, the whole world what future they want for their islands.
As the House will be aware, tomorrow marks the 30th anniversary of the liberation of the Falkland Islands by British forces. Events will be held both on the islands themselves and here in the UK to commemorate the extraordinary series of events that unfolded 30 years ago. We will remember all those who paid the ultimate price in defence of basic freedoms. For the Falkland Islanders, tomorrow will bring mixed emotions: thankfulness to those who fought and won; sorrow for those whose lives were lost; and anger that an attempt should ever have been made to invade their home and deny their most basic rights.
It is fitting that around the anniversary of their freedoms and rights being restored, the islanders should announce their intention to give these freedoms further expression through a referendum. In a region that advocates democracy and human rights, it is entirely appropriate that the Falkland Islanders should express this fundamental right. The principle of self-determination is a key part of the United Nations charter, as we and the islanders have repeatedly made clear and will continue to make clear.
While the current Argentine Government insist that they will seek to recover the islands only via peaceful means, their behaviour towards the islanders remains aggressive in many other ways. Argentina has placed a ban on charter flights through Argentine airspace to the islands. It has banned Falkland Islands-flagged vessels from its ports and prevented cruise ships that have visited the Falklands from docking in Argentina. It has introduced domestic legislation to penalise companies who wish to do business with the Falkland Islands. It has sent threatening letters to those engaged in the wholly legitimate business of hydrocarbons exploration around the islands, and it has recently attempted to politicise the Olympic games by screening a deeply offensive television advert showing images of an Argentine athlete training on a war memorial on the islands. Those actions, directed by the Argentine Government towards an innocent population of 3,000 people, are not the actions of a responsible power on the world stage.
While the Argentine Government have offered threats and misleading rhetoric, the islanders themselves have responded with dignity and determination. For our part, the British Government will continue to offer unequivocal support to the islanders by maintaining a defensive military posture on the islands, by supporting their growing economy, and by protecting their rights and wishes today just as we did 30 years ago.
I believe that the forthcoming referendum will provide further evidence that the islanders alone will decide their future, and that it will offer a simple but powerful expression of democracy. I hope that Argentina, and indeed all in the international community, will take note of the islanders’ freely expressed democratic views. Further details will be announced by the Falkland Islands Government in due course, and I shall keep the House informed of developments.
I commend the statement to the House.
Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for his statement, and also for allowing me early sight of it, which was a clear indication of his natural courtesy. As he said, it has been plain to all but the most obdurate that it is the will of the Falkland Islanders to remain a self-governing British overseas territory, especially as the economic picture for the Falklands is improving, with both fishing and oil exploration prominent. He rightly highlighted the outrageous aggressive actions of the Argentine Government. Will he tell the House what action we are taking in international bodies to overcome them?
As the Minister said, the Argentine Government still quite wrongly claim that the islanders would be happy to live under Argentine rule. A referendum with international observers would put that claim to rest once and for all. Will the Minister reassure us on the clear legal authority under which the referendum will be held, and can he assure us that the conduct and the question will meet appropriate standards so that there is a clear and unequivocal outcome?
Today we also need to send a clear message of reassurance to the Falkland Islanders, and a warning to the Argentine authorities that our resolve in support of the Falkland Islands remains as firm as it was 30 years ago. Then, we faced an unprincipled and cowardly attack by the vicious Argentine military junta, an action that ultimately and fortunately led to the end of that regime. Our military responded heroically and successfully, and it is in honour of their memory as well that the House, on behalf of the country, should signal our continuing resolve. We welcome the assistance given by the Ministry of Defence to enabling veterans to attend the ceremonies in the Falklands. However, that resolve must also be backed by capability. The Minister rightly spoke of
“maintaining a defensive military posture on the islands”,
but can he reassure us that the cuts in the armed forces have not undermined our ability to deter any rash and irresponsible action? Aircraft carriers without aircraft do not send the right signal.
We greatly fear that the stepping up of the aggressive rhetoric and actions of the Argentines which the Minister described is part of a wider campaign by an Administration who face considerable domestic problems. That pattern, unfortunately, is not unprecedented in a country blessed with great resources, fine people and, too often, dysfunctional politics.
It will be no consolation to the Falkland Islanders to know that they are not alone in facing this attack. Spain is incensed by the forcible nationalisation of the Spanish stake in the oil company Repsol. We welcome the robust response from not only the Spanish Government but—as the Minister will be well aware form his portfolio—the EU foreign policy representative, Baroness Ashton, who rightly said that this created
“legal insecurity for all European Union and foreign firms in the country.”
She also said that the EU was considering “All possible options”.
Can the Minister tell us what discussions have taken place with Spain and our other EU partners on how they will ensure that the Argentine authorities uphold their international commitments and obligations? What discussions has the Foreign Secretary had with Baroness Ashton about the co-ordination of the European response across international forums? Although Repsol has indicated that it plans to take its case to the World Bank arbitrations court, it is reported that Spain may also raise the issue at the World Trade Organisation, the International Monetary Fund and other international bodies. What support will we be giving it in those bodies? In that context, we welcome the crucial support for Spain’s case from the United States and urge the Foreign Secretary to work closely with Secretary of State Clinton to bring this sorry episode to a successful conclusion. This issue is crucially linked to the Falklands question, because those who show cavalier disregard for the norms of international behaviour in one area will behave badly elsewhere. What will the Foreign Office be doing to make clear the link between these issues?
In conclusion, as I have said, the Minister for Europe is a thoroughly likeable and decent Minister, but the future of the Falklands is of huge concern not only to the Falkland Islanders but to this country and, frankly, this statement should have been made by the Foreign Secretary, or by the Minister with responsibility for south America, who on this important occasion is actually—and properly—in the Falklands, along with the Opposition spokesman on south America. Surely it would have been better to await his return to give a report from the ground, or to have the Foreign Secretary give the strategic overview?
Mr Lidington
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his broad overall support for the statement and the Government’s policy on the Falklands and the Falkland Islanders. Thirty years ago the official position of the Labour party was to support Margaret Thatcher and her Government in standing up to Argentine aggression, and I know that the right hon. Gentleman personally represents the best of the Labour party’s patriotic tradition today. I shall chide him slightly for his final remarks, however. As I said in my statement, the timing of the announcement and the decision to hold a referendum were the responsibility of the Falklands Islands Government. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is on an important visit concerning vital British security interests abroad. He would have liked to have given this statement in person, but we felt—and he felt—that the correct thing to do was for Parliament to be informed as soon as possible after the Falkland Islands Government had made their announcement about the referendum that they have decided to hold. I make no apology for the fact that I have come to the House today. I fear the Opposition would have criticised the Government had we held off a statement on the referendum.
Let me try to respond to some of the more detailed points the right hon. Gentleman raised. Yes, we are confident in the legal authority of the Falkland Islands Government to carry out the referendum. We want it to be conducted to the highest possible standards, and we will be encouraging the Falkland Islands Government to look at things like our own Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 in order to see what best practice can offer. As I said in my statement, the Falklands Government, with our support, intend to invite independent foreign observers to ensure that the world can see that this election is being carried out to those high standards.
In regard to military capability, I reassure the right hon. Gentleman and the House that all our analysis tells us that we have the right mix of military assets in the Falklands and the surrounding area and, critically, that they can if necessary be reinforced rapidly. The state of our military preparedness was reviewed by senior Ministers earlier this year, and their conclusion was that the right things are being done to ensure we can defend the Falklands in the way the House would expect.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about Spain and the Repsol case. We have made our position very clear to Spain; my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary did so when he met Spanish Foreign Minister Garcia-Margallo a couple of weeks ago. We support its stance in protesting against Argentina’s action against Repsol, and we will continue to give Spain diplomatic support both bilaterally and in the appropriate international forums.
The right hon. Gentleman asked what representations we have made and what actions we have taken on behalf of the Falkland Islands through international bodies and more generally. We have made, and we will continue to make, all appropriate representations. For example, at the time of the controversy over access to ports in the region, we talked to Governments of other countries, particularly Chile, Brazil and Uruguay, which have all continued to allow into their ports vessels flying the red ensign. Trade is continuing normally, and countries in the region have made it clear to us that they have no wish to take part in any kind of trade boycott or blockade of the Falkland Islands.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
Both Front Benchers have rightly paid tribute to the magnificent efforts of our armed services 30 years ago. Will my right hon. Friend remember something without which the Falkland Islands would not have been liberated—the steely determination and, at a time when the Conservative party was languishing at 16% in the polls, the sheer political guts of my right hon. Friend Baroness Thatcher?
Mr Lidington
I am more than happy to acknowledge the importance of the leadership shown by the then Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher.
Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)
I am grateful to the Minister for advance sight of his statement. We pay tribute to all military personnel in the Falklands, including Keith Brown, who served with the Royal Marines and who is currently in the Falklands representing the Scottish Government as the Minister responsible for veterans affairs in the commemorations. We are delighted that the UK Government have recognised the right to self-determination. Will the Minister confirm that the referendum and its timing are a matter for local authorities, and that the UK Government will respect that?
Mr Lidington
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his remarks. It is entirely appropriate that Keith Brown, as a Falklands veteran as well as a Minister in the Scottish Government, should be present in the islands at this historic moment. I salute the bravery of Mr Brown and the bravery of his colleagues in all three armed services who fought, 255 of whom made the ultimate sacrifice in that war.
I rather expected from the hon. Gentleman a question that took us slightly wider than the south Atlantic. The Falkland Islands is a British overseas territory that, under the law and constitutional arrangements governing British overseas territories, has the right to decide whether to hold a referendum and the terms of that referendum. The case of Scotland is not comparable: the United Kingdom Government is intent on facilitating a referendum, as the Scottish Government have asked, but it must take place in proper, legal form in accordance with UK law on referendums.
Mr Speaker
Nothing further need be added. We are grateful to the Minister for his diligence.
Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)
Tomorrow, there will be commemorations to mark the 30th anniversary of the liberation of the Falklands, including a service in Colchester for the Parachute Regiment, which excelled in that conflict. Yesterday, the Ministry of Defence announced 4,100 redundancies in the Army, Navy and Air Force. I invite Ministers to read the military history of the 20th century to see how the Government of the day performed with the nation’s defence interests.
The Falklands are not the only islands in the south Atlantic. Without Ascension Island, and without 30 years of loyal support from the citizens of St Helena—both islands are overseas territories—the Falklands could not prosper. Put all three islands together economically.
Mr Lidington
The arrangements under which the Falklands, Ascension, South Georgia and the Sandwich Islands are separate overseas territories work well. I assure my hon. Friend that when the National Security Council, which includes Ministers from both coalition parties, considered the Falklands’ security and defence earlier in the year, it looked at that not just in the context of the forces stationed on the islands but in the broader context of logistics, supply and reinforcement, and took into account all the points that concern my hon. Friend.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
A few weeks ago, the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the right hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) and I were guests at the unveiling of the Falklands memorial at the national arboretum, which again brought home to us the sacrifice made by our armed forces personnel.
The Government and Parliament have been robust on the issue of self-determination, and will back it up with military might if necessary. Will the Minister ensure that the Government continue to give those strong messages so that there is no chink of light anywhere for the Argentines?
Mr Lidington
I take very seriously the point that the hon. Gentleman makes, and I can give him the assurance that he seeks.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
Having visited the Falkland Islands, may I pay sincere tribute to the Falkland Islanders for their stoicism, patience and resilience in the face, as my right hon. Friend said, of bullying and commercial aggression from the Argentines? Will he do all that he can to persuade the Argentines and, indeed, all the countries in the region, to respect the outcome of the freely given wishes of the people of the Falkland Islands?
Mr Lidington
We shall certainly do so. It is a cause of sadness that, in an age in which democracy and human rights are part of the standard political culture in south America, the right to self-determination for the Falkland Islanders should be determinedly ignored by the Government of Argentina. We hope that they will listen and take proper account of the democratic wishes of the people of the Falklands.
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that the whole House is united in support of the right of the people of the Falkland Islands to remain British as long as they wish to do so, and will he make it clear to the predatory idiots in Buenos Aires that any aggressive act, whether military, diplomatic or trading, will be met by similar measures from this country? He referred to best practice in referendums, and may I remind him that not long ago, the people of Gibraltar held such a referendum? I led the supervisory team to make sure that it was totally valid, which it was. Will he tell the Spaniards to lay off Gibraltar?
Mr Lidington
We have made our views on Gibraltar clear on many occasions, and our support for the right of the people of Gibraltar to stay British remains a matter of record and firm Government policy. I am not sure whether the right hon. Gentleman is putting in a bid to visit Port Stanley as an election observer, but I welcome his support for the statement.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
It is very sad that 30 years on, the Argentine Government are still sabre-rattling. Hopefully, the referendum will be the final word, demonstrating the intention of the people of the Falkland Islands to continue to be part of the United Kingdom’s overseas territories. To that end, will my right hon. Friend ensure that the Inter-Parliamentary Union provides as many parliamentary observers as possible from different parts of the world so that parliamentarians from every corner of the globe can witness the fact that the referendum is carried out in a full and proper way?
Mr Lidington
My hon. Friend makes a helpful suggestion. It is indeed important that observers are present from various different countries.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
As someone who has always argued for self-determination, like many of my Labour colleagues—not incidentally, a unanimous view in years gone by—may I ask whether the Minister accepts that if one believes in self-determination one should respect the view of those people in the Falklands, which is probably unanimous, who want to retain their links with Britain? That view, which no doubt will be reflected in the referendum, should be respected not just by us but by the international community at large.
Mr Lidington
I am glad to say that I agree completely with the hon. Gentleman’s remarks.
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
This Government can be commended for their engagement with Latin America, which was marked by the Foreign Secretary’s Canning House speech in November 2010. The Minister will know that the Argentine Government’s and President Kirchner’s diplomatic campaign has been ongoing for many years. With that in mind, will he have a gentle word with his colleagues in the US State Department and remind them that their policy positions and use of language are extremely important to the persuasiveness of the British case?
Mr Lidington
As my hon. Friend knows, the position of the United States Government for many years has been that they recognise the de facto British administration of the Falkland Islands but do not take a position on sovereignty. I can assure him that the United States Administration, at the highest levels, are well aware of our position and determination regarding the Falklands, and I believe that the principle that self-determination and democratic consent are required for constitutional change is something that ought to be very appealing to American politicians and the American people.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
I, too, pay tribute to our armed forces who fought so valiantly to free the Falkland Islands from Argentine occupation 30 years ago. I warmly welcome the referendum because it will send a strong signal to Argentina and the wider world on where the people of the Falkland Islands stand. We need a referendum in the Falklands, we are going to have one in Scotland, and possibly one on the EU, but the good news from Northern Ireland, where legislation requires a referendum on its future status only if it appears that there might be a majority to take it out of the United Kingdom, is that in a poll yesterday only 7% of people there, including those who traditionally describe themselves as nationalist, said that they would vote for a united Ireland, so the Union is strong and enduring as far as Northern Ireland is concerned.
Mr Speaker
The geographical dexterity of my colleagues never ceases to amaze me. In deference to the right hon. Gentleman’s seniority and distinction, I did not interrupt him, but I think we can probably leave it there.
Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)
Ten years ago I had the honour of accompanying the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) as an observer of the referendum that took place in Gibraltar, which has been very important to its subsequent development. May I endorse the request made by my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) that steps should be taken to ensure that observers are available from many countries of the world so that the result of the democratically organised referendum in the Falklands can be spread far and wide and no one can argue with its result?
Mr Lidington
My hon. Friend makes her point with great clarity. I support the thrust of what she says.
Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)
The Minister will know that his statement is warmly welcomed not just across the House, but throughout the United Kingdom, which stands full square behind the right of the Falkland Islands to self-determination. Will he give an assurance that not a single penny of British taxpayers’ money will go to Argentina while it adopts this aggressive position on the Falkland Islands?
Mr Lidington
As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister told the House a short while ago, British taxpayers’ money is not going to Argentina through World Bank loans. Our position is that any bid by any country for a World Bank loan must be considered on a case-by-case basis, and I know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development, who leads on such policy decisions, will have careful regard to the hon. Lady’s comments.
Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)
As a number of Members have mentioned, the Government of Argentina will inevitably try to portray the result of the referendum as somehow rigged. May I say, in support of the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry), that in addition to having representatives from Latin America look at the elections, we should focus on observers from Commonwealth countries, a large number of which have not been fully supportive of the position of the Falkland Islands, because that will send a firm, credible message to the world?
Mr Lidington
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. I think that it is important that, if at all possible, the observers include people from countries whose Governments have perhaps been sceptical in the way he describes.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
I, too, fully stand behind the Falkland Islanders’ right to self-determination, and I do so as a former Minister who had responsibility for them, but I have to say that the referendum in Gibraltar changed not one whit the view of the Spanish Government and we would be extremely naive if we were to think that we would change President Kirchner’s view by having the referendum. However, there are Argentine senators and members of Parliament, including Peronists, who simply laugh at their President’s position because they know that it is there for party political advantage and nothing else. Will the Minister confirm that calm and resolute negotiations with Argentina not on the basis of our holding the Falklands, but on other matters, is a better way than sabre-rattling?
Mr Lidington
One of the great sadnesses when reflecting on the situation in the south Atlantic over the past 10 years is the change in Argentine politics. Argentina has moved from what had appeared to be a policy of gradual accommodation and reconciliation towards the much more aggressive stance that President Kirchner has taken. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is important that the United Kingdom continues to make it clear that we want a mutually beneficial, friendly relationship with Argentina but that that will not come at the price of selling out the democratic rights of the Falkland Islanders. That remains our position.
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend join me in condemning outright the Argentine navy’s recent attempts to intervene on, and even on occasion board, European fishing vessels operating under licence from the Falklands, which is exactly the sort of intimidation and bullying that the Falklanders have to face up to on a regular basis?
Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op)
Like many Members, I have visited the Falklands—I went last November—and so particularly welcome the referendum, which will re-establish the will of the islanders. I urge the Minister to ensure that, with regard to expertise, sufficient support is giving to the Falkland Islands regional government and, in particular, the young people, who are so keen to play their part in the future of the islands and their economic development.
Mr Lidington
I certainly give the hon. Lady that assurance. We will give all possible help and support to the Falkland Islands Government in their preparations for the referendum. She makes a good point about the young people of the Falkland Islands. Tomorrow the President of Argentina is due to appear before the United Nations special committee on decolonisation. I understand that the Falkland Islands legislators who will represent the views of the islanders at that meeting will bring with them some of the young men and women from the Falklands who can make it clear that they, too, see themselves as British and wish to remain so.
Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con)
It is enormously welcome that the Falkland Islanders will decide by referendum whether to govern themselves. Does my right hon. Friend agree with the Chancellor that the time is coming for us to follow their example?
Mr Lidington
When Europe is facing an existential economic crisis, this is not the time to talk about a referendum on our membership of the EU.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Minister for his commitment to a referendum for the people of the Falklands. Oil has recently been discovered off the Falkland Islands. Will he assure the House that full protection will be given to any of the companies exploring for oil, that the benefit of any oil revenue will go to the people of the Falkland Islands and that any aggression from Argentina will be seen off?
Mr Lidington
The revenues from any successful oil and gas development will indeed accrue to the Falkland Islands Government. They have voluntarily said that they would want to share some of that revenue with the United Kingdom to offset the cost of our defence expenditure towards the islands. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we will do everything necessary to protect the legal right of the Falkland Islands to continue with hydrocarbon development.
Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con)
Almost 10 years ago I was fortunate enough to visit the Falkland Islands, somewhat unusually on my honeymoon, so they hold a very special place in my heart—I am still married. I was struck by the dignity and pride of the islanders during my visit. In relation to the referendum, which I welcome, can my right hon. Friend give any more clarity on its terms, particularly who will be eligible to vote, because that might have an impact on its legitimacy across international boundaries?
Mr Lidington
It will ultimately be a matter for the Falkland Islands Government to determine. Our working assumption of the most likely arrangement is that those people who are on the current electoral roll of the Falkland Islands, about 1,500 people, will be the ones entitled to vote, but as I say it is a matter for the Falkland Islands Government.
Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)
I have been fortunate enough to visit the Falkland Islands twice, most recently with the Defence Committee, and this House should commend the Falkland Islanders on the huge commitment and support that they give on an ongoing basis, generously and freely to veterans who served in the Falklands, whom they continue to welcome back and to host in the most amazing way. But we also met the chamber of commerce, with which I have had ongoing communication, and it is still having difficulties with Latin American countries blocking trade, transport and tourism. Will the Minister continue to look at that and ensure that international monitors from Latin America visit so that they can see that the rhetoric from Argentina is not having any impact and does not represent the view of the Falkland Islanders?
Mr Lidington
Having Latin American monitors is a sensible and creative idea, and, if the hon. Lady would like to share with my Department the particular instances that she knows about in terms of the obstruction of trade and so on, we will be happy to look into it further.
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
May I congratulate this House on sending a firm message about how important the Falkland Islands are? May I also suggest that in the future White Paper on the British dependent territories my right hon. Friend considers offering them an opportunity to vote for a Member of the House of Lords, when it is eventually reformed, so that whether to Spain or to Argentina we can send the very clear message, “Hands off the British dependent territories”?
Mr Lidington
That is certainly an innovative idea, which I shall draw to the attention of the Deputy Prime Minister.
David Wright (Telford) (Lab)
I welcome the fact that there is going to be a referendum, and I am confident that the people of the Falkland Islands will want to remain British—and I am proud of that, too. This country’s reserve forces have played a significant role in providing security on the islands, and we need to pay tribute to them. Has the Minister had any dialogue—I am sure he has—with his colleagues at the Ministry of Defence about ensuring that the reserve forces are kept at a sustainable level on the Falkland Islands?
Mr Lidington
I am very happy to join the hon. Gentleman in paying tribute to those members of the reserve forces who have served, and continue to serve, in defence of the Falkland Islanders, and I can assure him that there have been the conversations that he hopes for between the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence. He will know that the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr Howarth), is sitting beside me on the Government Front Bench, and the reserve forces will certainly continue to play an important role in the defence of the islands.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the President of Argentina should respect the principle of self-determination as a fundamental right, honour the outcome of the referendum and turn her attention to domestic challenges, rather than continuing her aggressive posturing towards the Falkland Islands?
Mr Lidington
I hope that President Kirchner, even now, will reflect on the fact that Argentina is a signatory to the United Nations charter, article 1.2 of which talks of members developing
“friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples”.
That right of self-determination applies to the people of the Falkland Islands as much as to people anywhere else.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
The economy of the Falkland Islands is almost entirely reliant on the fishing of squid, and a lot of exported squid goes to Spain. What discussions is the Minister having with other EU countries and, in particular, with Spain about keeping such trade channels open, despite the pressure from the Argentine Government?
Mr Lidington
So far as I am aware, all the evidence is that trade is continuing normally, despite the various pressures exerted by Argentina. Where there is evidence of interference with trade having been, or threatening to become, effective, we are always willing to intervene with the Governments concerned to ensure that we are able to explain and reassert the legal rights of the Falklanders to the resources within their waters, and to ensure that trade patterns resume as normal.
Mr Speaker
Order. We are going to have call a halt soon, because we have other business and time for that must be protected, but we will take a couple more questions, with the emphasis on brevity.
Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)
Much as we all love referendums and rightly remain absolutely committed to the principle of self-determination in the case of the Falklands, is it nevertheless part of the Government’s strategy, once these important and emotionally charged anniversaries are over, to rebuild relations with what should be a friendly democracy in Argentina?
Mr Lidington
We have never sought to shift away from a friendly and constructive relationship with Argentina, whether political or commercial. It is Argentina, under its current leadership, that has chosen to walk away from the prospect of a fruitful relationship with the United Kingdom. We will be only too willing to have the sort of warm relationship with Argentina which ought to exist, but in order to seek that we are not prepared to sacrifice or to put at risk the self-determination of the people of the Falklands.
Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)
What discussions have the Government had, specifically on the referendum, with Argentina’s neighbouring countries, many of which are becoming increasingly embarrassed by President Kirchner’s actions?
Mr Lidington
We are in frequent contact, at both official and ministerial level, with other countries in the region. Although most countries of south America support the Argentine claim to sovereignty, they also make it clear that they do not want to be participants in any trade boycott or effort to bully the people of the Falkland Islands.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Recently the Argentine Government have accused us, the British, of militarising the south Atlantic. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the reason why we have strong, effective and deterrent armed forces on the Falkland Islands is that Argentina continues to make threats that might turn to military ones?
Opposition Day
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Ministerial Code (Culture Secretary)
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
16:12 - The House divided: - Ayes: 252 / Noes: 290 - Question accordingly negatived.
Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House believes that the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport should be referred to the Independent Adviser on Ministers’ Interests to investigate whether he breached paragraph 1.2c (giving accurate and truthful information to Parliament) and paragraph 3.3 (responsibility for his special adviser) of the Ministerial Code.
This debate takes place while the Leveson inquiry is doing its work, but I make it clear that the motion before the House is not about the issues that are the subject of the inquiry; today’s motion is about the rights of the House and the ministerial code, issues that Lord Justice Leveson made clear he is not going to consider and report on. Indeed, he cannot consider those matters, because article 9 of the Bill of Rights prevents him from so doing.
It was right to establish the Leveson inquiry. Its work is of huge importance and, after Lord Justice Leveson has reported, we will need to place great weight on his proposals and to give them deep consideration. We have, arising out of his inquiry, an historic opportunity to create a better settlement for the future, and I look forward to us all working together to achieve that, but that is not what the motion before us is about.
This debate is about protecting the rights of this House so that we can do the job we were elected to do—of holding Ministers to account and ensuring high standards in ministerial office, as set out in the ministerial code.
The ministerial code is not just a matter for the Prime Minister; it is a matter for this House. The motion before the House asks that the Secretary of State be referred to the independent adviser on Ministers’ interests, and nothing in Sir Alex Allan’s reply to the Prime Minister today changes that. There are two issues at stake here: misleading the House and failing to take responsibility for his special adviser.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
Sir Alex Allan’s response clearly said—[Interruption.] I am reading from the letter that was placed in the Library of the House, which clearly states:
“I do not believe that I could usefully add to the facts in the case”.
Does not that undermine the statements that the right hon. and learned Lady has just made?
Ms Harman
Will the hon. Gentleman just let me finish?
It is for the independent adviser to make a judgment on whether the ministerial code has been breached so that he can advise the Prime Minister on whether, in his view, there has been such a breach. That is due process. When there are facts out there that tend to indicate a breach of the code, the process is to have the independent adviser able not only to hear the argument from the person in respect of whom a breach has been alleged but to look at the facts that are out there. That is the process by which the Prime Minister can then make his decision.
It is very telling that the Prime Minister is doing everything he can to stop that process taking place. That is why—
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
Will the right hon. and learned Lady take an intervention from me instead?
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
Sir Alex Allan is described as the independent adviser. Is it not suspicious that the letter to him from the Prime Minister that the Prime Minister used to defend himself today at Prime Minister’s questions was dated 13 June—today—and that he received his reply on 13 June, also today? Does not this question the position of Sir Alex Allan and call into question his independence?
Mr Speaker
Order. Members on both sides of the House need to calm down. I always listen with great interest to the pronouncements of the Secretary of State for Education, but I say to him in all courtesy that his pronouncements from a sedentary position on matters for which he has no direct ministerial responsibility add nothing. I am not interested; I do not want to hear them. The right hon. Gentleman should sit silently and listen to the debate. If he feels unable to do that, he is welcome to depart the Chamber, and we will just about manage without him.
Ms Harman
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
In response to my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas), I think that the exchange of letters from the Prime Minister is nothing more than an attempt to distract and provide a smokescreen, and we should not be distracted from the very important issues that are the subject of this motion: misleading the House and failing to take responsibility for a special adviser.
Ms Harman
I will make a bit of progress, if I may, and then I will give way to the hon. Gentleman.
First, there is the obligation to give accurate and truthful information to the House. On 19 March 1997, this House resolved that one of the principles that the House sees as being of paramount importance is
“that Ministers give accurate and truthful information to Parliament, correcting any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity.”
The seriousness that the House places on this is underlined by the resolution going on to say:
“Ministers who knowingly mislead Parliament will be expected to offer their resignation to the Prime Minister”.
That is the wording of paragraph 1.2.c. of the ministerial code. This is not just some old-fashioned relic of House pomposity; it matters. I know that Members in all parts of the House regard—
Ms Harman
I would think that it would be common agreement that the ministerial code is important, and I am, if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, simply setting out what the ministerial code says. I cannot believe that he wants to take issue with my describing, at the outset of moving this motion, what the ministerial code says. I put it to the hon. Gentleman: does he, as a Back Bencher, believe that his rights as a Back Bencher are important and that Ministers should answer truthfully to this House?
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I am grateful and flattered that the deputy leader of the Labour party should want to intervene on me while I am in a sedentary position. I would like to put to her the question about “knowingly” misleading the House. There is no suggestion whatever from any quarter that the Secretary of State ever knowingly misled this House.
Ms Harman
I will proceed, if I may.
Despite the interventions, I know that Members in all parts of the House regard the question of truth, accuracy and full disclosure to Parliament as fundamental. We cannot settle for anything less if we are to hold Ministers to account. Putting it at its very lowest, there is prima facie evidence that the Secretary of State failed to give accurate and truthful information to the House.
On 3 March 2011—[Interruption.] I ask hon. Members to bear with me while I set out what I believe to be the facts at issue. On 3 March 2011, in reply to the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry), the Secretary of State told the House that in respect of his handling of the Murdoch bid for BSkyB he had published
“all the documents relating to all the meetings—all the consultation documents, all the submissions we received, all the exchanges between my Department and News Corporation.”—[Official Report, 3 March 2011; Vol. 524, c. 526.]
I have here the documents that he published on that day. Many of them, such as written ministerial statements, the European intervention notice and press releases from the European Commission, were already in the public domain.
But when the Murdochs came to give evidence to the Leveson inquiry, we discovered that all the exchanges had not been published. No: there had been literally hundreds of exchanges between the Secretary of State’s Department and News Corporation that he had not published. Over the course of many months, both when the bid was the responsibility of the Business Secretary and when it was his responsibility, there had been literally hundreds of exchanges—texts, e-mails, reports of phone calls—none of which had been disclosed to this House. So while on 3 March 2011 we were told that the pile was only this big, a full year later, on 24 April, and thanks only to the Leveson inquiry, we discovered that it was this big. Even though the Secretary of State says that he did not know of the volume and content of the exchanges between his special adviser and News Corporation, he did know of their existence, because, as he told the House on 25 April, he had authorised those exchanges.
There is a second occasion where there is prima facie evidence of the Secretary of State not being accurate and truthful to the House. In answer to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell) during his statement to the House on 25 April, he said that he
“made absolutely no interventions seeking to influence a quasi-judicial decision that was at that time the responsibility of the Secretary of State for Business.”—[Official Report, 25 April 2012; Vol. 543, c. 973.]
But it emerged during evidence to the Leveson inquiry that on 19 November 2010, when it was—
Mr Speaker
Order. It is up to the hon. Gentleman to show some sensitivity to the conventions of the House. He asked the right hon. and learned Lady to give way and the answer was no; he should not keep persisting at it. He can have another go later if he wants. [Interruption.] Order. I do not need any guidance from the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), on the strength of her two years in the House, about correct parliamentary procedure. The hon. Lady is a very distinguished figure and a rising star, but I think I can probably just about get by without her assistance.
Ms Harman
No, I am not going to give way. I owe it to the House to set out the case that I am making, based on the facts.
It emerged during the evidence to the Leveson inquiry that on 19 November 2010, when it was the Business Secretary’s responsibility, the Culture Secretary sent a memo to the Prime Minister about the News Corporation bid for BSkyB, setting out his views and asking for a meeting. In anyone’s book, a memo setting out his views and asking for a meeting is an intervention.
Secondly, in relation to the Culture Secretary’s special adviser, special advisers have a political role and are appointed directly by the Secretary of State. That is why the ministerial code places responsibility for their management and conduct on the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State acknowledged this at the Leveson inquiry. It was put to him that the person responsible for Adam Smith’s discipline
“was you, not the Civil Service, wasn’t it?”
The Culture Secretary replied:
“Well, he reported to me, yes”,
and went on to say:
“I do have responsibility for what he does. I actually have responsibility for whatever everyone in my Department does, but I have more direct responsibility for the people who are my direct reports.”
Quite so. But at the very least there is prima facie evidence that the Secretary of State failed to take responsibility for the management and conduct of his special adviser—
Ms Harman
I will not take interventions at this point, not because I am not prepared to debate, but because I need to set out to the House what the rules are and what our case is as to why those rules have been broken.
There is at the very least prima facie evidence that the Secretary of State failed to take responsibility for the management and conduct of his special adviser. Either he did not know what he was doing when his special adviser was overstepping the mark—and that was a breach of the code—or, as people think more likely, he did know what he was doing when Adam Smith was overstepping the mark, and that, too, would have been a breach of the code. Whichever way one looks at it, there has been a clear breach of the ministerial code.
All Members of the House agree on the importance of upholding the standards contained in the ministerial code. In their 2010 manifesto the Liberal Democrats made “cleaning up politics” one of their
“four steps to a fairer Britain”.
As the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) said last night:
“There is clearly a case to answer and given that we are being asked to support the Prime Minister’s judgment call that there is a case to answer, we can’t in all honesty and integrity do that.”
The Prime Minister, when he was in opposition, promised to strengthen the ministerial code, and when he came into Government he said in his foreword to the ministerial code in 2010:
“we must remember that we are not masters but servants. Though the British people have been disappointed in their politicians, they still expect the highest standards of conduct. We must not let them down.”
He was right then, and that is why he should refer the Secretary of State. He cannot apply the rules to Baroness Warsi but not to his Culture Secretary.
The ministerial code is important. It must be complied with. The House cannot let breaches of the code be swept under the carpet, so I strongly urge hon. Members in all parts of the House to reflect on this, support the rights of the House, reinforce the importance of the ministerial code and vote in support of the motion.
Mr Speaker
Order. The House must try to contain itself. [Interruption.] It is no good hon. Members groaning. Some Members are getting very over-excited. It is early in the day. There is a long time to go. I suggest that Members calm down.
The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Jeremy Hunt)
At the heart of this debate are two allegations about the ministerial code, so let me address them straight away—first, the disgraceful allegation that I deliberately misled Parliament—[Interruption.] Do Opposition Members want to hear what I have to say about it, since they called the debate?
In response to a question on 3 March 2011 I stated that I had published correspondence between myself and News Corp. In answers to those questions I referred back to that statement, and if there was any misunderstanding about the extent to which I was publishing correspondence, it was addressed as long ago as last September in a written parliamentary answer to the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann). That spelled out precisely what information I was releasing and what information I was not releasing.
I know that the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) has found it difficult to read the volume of correspondence that I published. The content of the correspondence is what is important. If she read it, she would see that I have taken more trouble and published more information than probably any other Government have published in any previous bid. I made huge efforts to be transparent and she knows it perfectly well.
Mr Hunt
I will give way in a moment.
Paragraph 1.2.c of the ministerial code, to which the right hon. and learned Lady referred, is very clear. If Ministers make an inadvertent error, they should correct it at the earliest possible opportunity, which I did, not breaking the ministerial code, but acting in accordance with it. I have not very often had to correct things that I have said, but may I remind the right hon. and learned Lady that she had to correct the record in January 2010, May 2009, April 2009, July 2008, July 2007 and November 2003—one of many aspects of this job where she has much more experience than I do.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
I have had to correct the record as well. There is no dishonour in correcting the record. However, what the Minister just referred to was his reply on 7 September, when he said that it was for reasons of cost that he was not able to provide anything more. How much would it have cost him to remember that he had sent a memo to the Prime Minister on the matter, or to have checked his own mobile phone for the text messages that he sent to James Murdoch? He has lied to Parliament. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. [Interruption.] Order. Let me say to the House that the substantive matter under consideration reflected in the terms of the motion is whether the House of Commons has been misled in any way. That is the thrust of the matter under debate and the Secretary of State is making a very clear defence of himself, so when Members cavil and inquire whether what we have heard is legitimate, I am guided by advice and I operate on the basis that there is a substantive motion, which is what the whole debate is about and in relation to which the Secretary of State is speaking.
In general terms, the normal principles of “Erskine May” about moderation and good humour apply, but I cannot preclude—[Interruption.] Order. I cannot preclude a Member operating in accordance with the terms of the motion. The Secretary of State—[Interruption.] Order. I require no assistance from the Immigration Minister. The Minister should sit, be calm and listen intently. If he does not want to do so, he can leave the Chamber.
The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Young)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am not sure whether everyone heard correctly the allegation that was made by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). As I understood it, he accused my right hon. Friend of lying to Parliament. My understanding is that that is unparliamentary language and that it should be withdrawn. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”]
Mr Speaker
Members can shout as loudly or for as long as they like, but it will make no difference. I am simply saying that on the advice that I have taken, nothing disorderly has occurred. [Interruption.] Order, Mr Brennan. I simply ask the Secretary of State to continue with his case.
I appeal to Members to exercise restraint in the frequency—[Interruption.] Order. Members must exercise restraint in the frequency with which they intervene for the debate to continue in an orderly way and for there to be a reasonable opportunity for Members from both sides of the House to contribute.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. As in this debate it may be orderly to accuse my right hon. Friend of being a liar, would it be orderly to accuse Opposition Front Benchers of being the most sanctimonious, hypocritical humbugs in recent political memory?
Mr Speaker
The answer is no, it would not be legitimate to make such a charge against an individual Member who was not the subject of the motion under debate in the House. The hon. Member for Rhondda has said what he has said. I have explained why it may not be proper for him to say it. I know that, being as well behaved as he is, he will not persist.
Mr Jeremy Hunt
With great respect to your office, Mr Speaker, I think that there is a huge difference between misleading Parliament inadvertently and lying.
Mr Speaker
Order. I appreciate the Secretary of State’s respect, but let me say to him explicitly and for the avoidance of doubt what I have just said. There is a motion. That motion is being debated. He will make his case, and I look forward to him continuing to do so. I will be the arbiter of order, and I know that he will leave that to me.
Mr Hunt
It is because I wish to make my case that I want to draw the House’s attention to the very important distinction between inadvertently misleading this House and lying. Lying implies that there is deliberate intent. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who has made great play in the press of how he has suffered when inaccurate allegations about him have been bandied about in the press, would, I am sure, not want to associate himself with the comment he has made unless he has any evidence. I am happy to give way to him now if he will show me evidence of any occasion when I have misled Parliament deliberately.
Chris Bryant
Mr Speaker, I very much hope that I will manage to catch your eye later in the debate. I hope that the Secretary of State will stay because I have a great deal of evidence to prove that he has lied to Parliament. That will be the subject not of a point of information now, but of a whole speech.
Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)
Perhaps I can give the Secretary of State the opportunity to answer one of the allegations. He told me that he had made no attempt to intervene while the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills was dealing with this matter. Will he tell me, therefore, what the purpose was of his memo to the Prime Minister, if not to influence the outcome?
Mr Hunt
Good. The 2002 Act states that the responsibility for a quasi-judicial decision is that of the Business Secretary. The note that I sent to the Prime Minister made it very clear that I did not believe that it would be appropriate to make any intervention in a quasi-judicial decision, and that I would not seek to do so. That is what the note states. Members can select parts of the note and try to misrepresent them, but what I said was very clear and the Prime Minister read it out earlier at Prime Minister’s questions. I made no intervention seeking to influence the Business Secretary’s quasi-judicial decision.
Mr Hunt
I will make a little progress, then I will come back to the right hon. Gentleman.
The second allegation is over ministerial responsibility for my special adviser, as set out in paragraph 3.3 of the ministerial code. Adam Smith, my former special adviser, is someone of the highest integrity—[Interruption.] He is. However, he did engage in some contact with News Corporation that was inappropriate and he has resigned. Lessons will be learned about how to improve processes and to avoid that happening again. I did not know about or authorise—
Mr Hunt
If hon. Members will let me make my case, I can perhaps answer some of their questions.
I did not know about or authorise that contact, but in accordance with the ministerial code, I accepted full responsibility for it by making a statement to the House the day after the contact became apparent.
Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)
May I take the Secretary of State back to what he said a little earlier? He said that he was making no attempt to influence the quasi-judicial process because the Business Secretary was responsible for it at the time. However, his memo suggested a meeting with the Business Secretary. In what sense was that not an attempt to influence the process?
Mr Hunt
The memo, if the hon. Lady has read it, said that we should have a meeting that should not intrude on the quasi-judicial decision that the Business Secretary had to make. Something very significant, which she is forgetting about, is that no meeting happened. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. Members must not shout at the Secretary of State. [Interruption.] Order. The House needs to calm down. The Secretary of State is entitled to make his case in the way that the shadow Secretary of State made hers.
Mr Hunt
I want to address the second allegation, which relates to my responsibility for the actions of my special adviser. I took responsibility for those actions in my statement.
The question that the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham has failed to answer is why it is a breach of the ministerial code when a Conservative special adviser behaves inappropriately, but not when a Labour special adviser does. Why is she calling for my resignation, when she did not call for that of the last Labour Prime Minister following the actions of Damian McBride or Charlie Whelan? Her inability to answer that question betrays her motives as being not about ministerial conduct, but about rank political opportunism. It may be that she holds Conservative Ministers to a higher standard of conduct than Labour Ministers because she believes that Conservative Ministers behave better than Labour Ministers. In that case, I would agree with her. I gently remind her that her position is not entirely consistent.
Mr Denham
Like the Secretary of State, I was responsible for appointing a number of special advisers who worked for me. It is inconceivable to me that any one of my special advisers could have maintained contact of this volume with a major stakeholder without me, as the Secretary of State, being aware of it. How on earth can he explain his apparent case that he knew nothing about what was going on?
Mr Hunt
I had hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would explain why it is a breach of the code when a Conservative special adviser behaves inappropriately, but not when a Labour special adviser does, but he did not.
I want to get on to the substance of what the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham said. Parliament rightly holds Ministers to account, and I strongly defend the right of this House to do so. Since my answer to the hon. Member for Bassetlaw in September, as a result of our gathering evidence for the Leveson inquiry, more than 2,000 pages of paperwork relating to the BSkyB bid have been assembled and placed in the House Library. That shows that time after time I sought to supply the House with as much information as possible, far beyond what was required by the Enterprise Act 2002, and probably far more than for any previous deal. It shows that I not only followed legal advice but went beyond it, seeking and publishing independent and expert advice about every key decision—an approach that was confirmed by nearly six hours of testimony under oath from myself and others, including my permanent secretary, who said that I had deliberately reduced my own room to manipulate the process to vanishing point.
Indeed, the evidence shows that the real story of this bid was insistence by me at several key stages on decisions that News Corp did not consider to be in its interests—the involvement of independent regulators; the stopping of James Murdoch being chairman of the spun-off Sky News; the refusal to rush the process; the decision to consult not once but twice. This was not an easy process, nor was it ever likely to command popular support, but the decisions were taken fairly and my Department deserves enormous credit as a result.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
This was clearly a very controversial issue, and I imagine that competitors of Murdoch and News International would have been watching hawk-like to see whether there was any opportunity of taking the Secretary of State to judicial review. At any point during the process, did anyone indicate that they wished to take the Secretary of State to judicial review on the procedures and process that he used?
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
Adam Smith told Leveson, “Jeremy told me, ‘You have done nothing wrong. You are just doing your job.’” How is that consistent with what the Secretary of State has told the House?
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
I had the privilege of working alongside the Secretary of State in the same shadow ministerial team in the last Parliament, and I regard him as a man of the highest integrity and decency. I am reassured by the fact that he took independent advice at every stage of the procedure, even when he was not required to do so.
Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)
Let us be absolutely clear about what the Secretary of State seems to be saying. He is saying that he did not know what went on with the actions of his special adviser. Is he trying to tell the House that he is so incompetent that he did not know what his special adviser was doing?
Mr Hunt
No, I am saying that we knew that he had a role as one of a number of official points of contact in the process, and we knew that he was in contact with News Corporation, but we did not know about the volume and tone of that correspondence.
If I may say so, the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham was brave to call an Opposition day debate on the topic of accuracy, because in the past few weeks that has not been her strong point. Let us look at a few of the things that she has said, and we will see who has been the more accurate. First, on 25 April, she said that I was not judging the bid but backing it—quite a big claim, for which we would think she had some evidence. But she was wrong, because as she knows perfectly well, in every case I followed advice from one, and sometimes two, independent regulators. Were they biased as well? Of course not, and nor was I in following their advice.
The right hon. and learned Lady’s next claim was that I went against Ofcom’s advice by not referring the bid to the Competition Commission. Wrong again. As she should now know, if she has read the evidence that she brandished, my first decision was to refer to the bid to the Competition Commission, but I then had a legal obligation to send News Corp a letter saying that I was minded to refer it, and then to consider undertakings offered in lieu of a referral. Had I not done that, I would have been going against legal advice. Her party wrote the Enterprise Act 2002, so she must be the first politician to call on someone to resign for following the law that her party itself wrote into statute.
Then there was the claim that I used my special adviser as a secret back channel throughout the bid. Wrong yet again. As the right hon. and learned Lady knows perfectly well, my special adviser was one of many official points of contact, which my permanent secretary was aware of and content with. Then she wanted to claim that I somehow authorised my special adviser’s behaviour when it was inappropriate. Unfortunately for her, after I released texts and e-mails between me and him, the evidence showed that she was wrong. Finally, there was the very serious claim that I misled Parliament, which I have dealt with.
Why has virtually every claim that the right hon. and learned Lady made been proved wrong? Because she did not even read the evidence before making her judgment.
Mr Hunt
No, I am going to make progress.
In fact, the right hon. and learned Lady called on me to resign just 23 minutes after the evidence was published. That was despite saying on the Marr show that she wanted to work on a cross-party basis. When it came down to it, the temptation to get a political scalp was just too strong, and brazen opportunism took the place of responsible politics. To try to dress up partisan advantage as concern for the rights of this House will disappoint many and fool none, and she should know better. Some may say that she has proved herself to be little better than the newspapers that she has so criticised.
I have spent six weeks being accountable for my actions and being proved right. The right hon. and learned Lady has spent six weeks cooking up allegations and being proved wrong. The Culture Secretary must be accountable to this House, but so too must she.
Mr Speaker
Order. I am grateful to the Secretary of State. [Interruption.] Order. The hon. Member for Blyth Valley (Mr Campbell) is an elder statesman in the House and should behave with the restraint expected of somebody who enjoys that soubriquet.
There is a lot of interest in the debate and several Members wish to be called. I hope it will be understood that there has to be a time limit. I wanted to see how much time was left before setting it. There will be an eight-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches with immediate effect.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
Justice must not only be done, but must manifestly be seen to be done—Lord Justice Hewart’s pronouncement is fundamental. It applies to our courts, and it should apply to Ministers acting in a quasi-judicial capacity. The integrity of a Minister’s decision-making process depends substantially on that process being accepted by those who observe it. That is especially so when the decision is one with a high public profile, and few processes have a higher public profile than this process has had.
Out there, people are saying to me that the Secretary of State has no credibility considering the integrity of the process that he followed. We know that he was in favour of the News International bid, and that from the outset he made proposals supporting its acquiring BSkyB. We have heard today, and he has confirmed from the Dispatch Box, that he was making representations to the Prime Minister to meet the Business Secretary. Will he intervene on me to say that he did not make such a representation? The reason he is not coming to the Dispatch Box to intervene is that he knows that he made that representation—a memo to the Prime Minister asking to meet the Business Secretary, which he should not have done. That was his evidence to the Leveson inquiry.
Ian Lucas
I will not give way at this point.
We know what the Secretary of State’s views were at the outset, and we know that the facts disclose that he is not an impartial Culture Secretary. We also know that he does not support the people who worked with him in carrying out his ministerial role. We know that he nominated Adam Smith to manage the relationship with News International. He did not, on the other hand, appoint anyone to manage the relationship with people opposed to the proposal, and the level of contact with opponents of the proposal was in no measure anywhere near that with News International.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
This was a takeover, not an open share contest. There was no reason for the Secretary of State necessarily to have the same amount of regular contact through his special adviser from the person trying to make the takeover. It just does not happen that way. The hon. Gentleman should know that, as a business lawyer.
Ian Lucas
I am surprised that the hon. Lady, who is familiar with this matter, supports the fact that there was such huge contact between a special adviser appointed by the Secretary of State and the proponent of the bid. That was not appropriate and did not lead to the perception that the process was fair and impartial.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
Is it not telling that the Secretary of State chose to involve a political appointment—a special adviser, who carries out a solely political function—in a quasi-judicial decision? I did a similar job in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, which involved judging on competition policy. It is unthinkable that a political adviser would be called in unless there were political motives.
Ian Lucas
I, too, was a Minister in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, and I have no recollection or knowledge of a special adviser behaving in that way. I suggest that the special adviser was appointed because the Secretary of State had an agenda to take forward the bid and ensure it went through. The right hon. Gentleman’s conduct after he was given the quasi-judicial role—when the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills had it taken away from him—was designed to present himself as acting fairly, but everyone knows that his agenda was to get the bid through. It is in his texts and actions. All has been revealed.
The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport is not seen as independent and did not act impartially in the process. He will not be trusted in future to act impartially in any decisions he makes. He therefore should not be in office. He has no credibility. If he goes away from the Chamber and thinks about what has happened in the past hour, he will recognise that. If he has any dignity, when he looks at himself in his shaving mirror he will accept that he should not be in post.
As the Leader of the Opposition said today, it is not the Secretary of State who is on trial, but the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister has undermined the independent adviser on ministerial interests by his conduct. We heard a classic example of that today. Purely for partisan political purposes, the Prime Minister wrote to Sir Alex Allan, and received a response the same day— [Interruption.] It was orchestrated—no doubt there was communication between the independent adviser’s office and the Prime Minister’s office.
The Prime Minister said from the Dispatch Box that the letter exonerated the Secretary of State, which is not true. The letter says that an investigation would take the matter no further so far as the facts were concerned, but that is not the job of the independent adviser. His job is to make a judgment based on the facts presented to him, which, the letter goes on to say, he is willing to do.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
Is my hon. Friend aware that the Public Administration Committee unanimously decided that Sir Alex Allan was not fit for the job after merely a pre-appointment hearing? We asked him what he would do if the Prime Minister behaved in this way, and he said he would relinquish his post. Has he not proved that he is a poodle, and not the rottweiler that should be doing that job?
Ian Lucas
I was aware of that—indeed, I was coming to the Committee’s report, which questions the independence of Sir Alex Allan. I have had no previous dealings with him, but the partisan use of his office by the Prime Minister—this morning and at the Dispatch Box as a shield at Question Time—undermines him.
Mr Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman is not giving way at the moment. The hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) need not be worried. He is very visible—the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) has seen him and may give way in due course. He can have another go in a moment, exercising the usual restraint and good judgment that he demonstrates on these occasions.
Ian Lucas
The Prime Minister used Sir Alex Allan at the Dispatch Box for political advantage. He has used Baroness Warsi for political advantage by referring her to the independent adviser. He is using his colleagues to defend his position. We saw his behaviour again today, when he insulted my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram). It is a disgrace that Conservative Members support such contemptible behaviour by the Prime Minister—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman has made a number of references to the Prime Minister, which I took to be in passing, but the conduct of the Prime Minister is not the subject of debate—[Interruption.] Order. There is not a substantive motion on that matter, so I feel sure that the hon. Gentleman will re-orientate his remarks to matters that fall within the terms of the motion.
Ian Lucas
The subject of the debate is the conduct of the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport. He knows he does not have the confidence of the country or the Chamber. He cannot carry out his important role. He is not impartial, he is not perceived to be impartial, and he should go.
Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con)
It is not that long since I spoke in the Chamber on the subject of individuals misleading Parliament, so I am in no doubt about the seriousness of that charge. I do not question the right of the Opposition to table the motion, but I have listened carefully to the Secretary of State and commend him for the way in which he has responded to each individual accusation and for his conduct over the past few months, which cannot have been easy.
Some have suggested that the Secretary of State should not have had a view about the bid by News Corp to acquire all of BSkyB, but one of his first responsibilities is to be the sponsoring Minister for the media industry of this country. It would have been utterly extraordinary if he did not have a view. BSkyB is one of the most important media companies in the country and plays a vital part in the future of the media: of course he would have a view about it.
Not only was the Secretary of State entitled to have a view, but I believe he held the correct view. Had the bid gone through, it would have had good implications for the survival of newspapers in this country. He was not responsible for that matter at the time; it was a quasi-judicial matter for the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills.
Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab)
I understand the argument the hon. Gentleman makes. The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport should have a view, but was he not put in a difficult position by the Prime Minister when the problem with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills occurred? Was he not an inappropriate and wrong person to put in charge of that process?
Mr Whittingdale
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport was put in a difficult position because he was given responsibility after expressing a view, but I do not agree that he was the wrong person to be given that responsibility. This was such an important matter that almost anybody given the responsibility would have had a view. The important thing is that, having been given the responsibility, he put aside his view and judged the matter clearly and solely on the advice he received. That was precisely what he did.
Alun Cairns
Will my hon. Friend confirm that the letter from the Secretary of State to the Prime Minister was made available to the permanent secretary and the Cabinet Secretary when they advised the Prime Minister on whether the Secretary of State could take responsibility?
Mr Whittingdale
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It has been made clear that the decision to pass responsibility to my right hon. Friend was made after he had indicated that he was on record expressing a view on the merits of the bid before he was given that responsibility.
Mr Denham
Will the hon. Gentleman clarify something for me? When the Cabinet Secretary took the view on the suitability of the Secretary of State, had the Cabinet Secretary been made aware of the memo from the Secretary of State to the Prime Minister proposing a joint meeting with the Business Secretary on this matter? It would be surprising if he had not been told that by either the Secretary of State or the Prime Minister.
Mr Whittingdale
I am not in a position to know that but it is a question that the right hon. Gentleman can perfectly fairly put to the Prime Minister and the Cabinet Secretary. I want at the end of my speech to say what might happen next, if there are still some questions.
Kevin Brennan
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. On that matter, would it be in order for the Secretary of State to intervene and clarify the issue that has just been raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham)?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
That is not a point of order. It is up to the Secretary of State to do that if he wishes and John Whittingdale has the floor.
Mr Whittingdale
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.
Once responsibility was passed to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, he followed the advice that was given at every stage. Had the bid gone through as a result of his following the advice he was given, BSkyB would now have been subject to stronger safeguards against political interference than it is thanks to the fact that the bid did not go through.
Fiona O'Donnell
What does the hon. Gentleman think about his coalition partners’ decision not to go through the Lobby with his party tonight? If the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister have made such a convincing case, why can they not even convince their coalition partners?
Mr Whittingdale
I shall be disappointed if our coalition partners do not support the Government on this occasion. I hope that having heard my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State they might still do so later.
I want to make one or two comments about possible lessons from this affair that we should perhaps consider in the future, the first of which concerns the role of special advisers. I, too, was once a special adviser in the Department of Trade and Industry at a time of Conservative government in the late ’80s. I was a political adviser and I did not participate in discussions about competition policy as it was felt that political advisers were there to provide political input and it could not be clear what political input would be legitimate in a competition case. The role of special advisers has changed over the past 10 or 15 years and I must say to the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) that it was the previous Labour Government who changed the role of special advisers and gave them far more influence and power than they previously had. We need to reconsider that.
Paul Flynn
I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman is aware that three former special advisers to this Government gave evidence to a Select Committee of this House yesterday. They were asked whether it would have been possible for them to communicate with lobbyists in a Minister’s office. They all treated with derision the suggestion that a special adviser could communicate 500 times with an outside body without the knowledge of the Minister.
Mr Whittingdale
I must say to the hon. Gentleman that I am not sure that political advisers to the previous Government are likely to have given the most objective evidence commenting on the performance of the Secretary of State.
I believe that there is a serious concern about the role that special advisers undertake, and perhaps that could be considered further. The other matter that perhaps deserves some consideration is the fact that the Secretary of State has advanced an interesting argument that in order to take issues such as News Corp’s BSkyB bid out of the political arena, they should be given to Ofcom and the Competition Commission to consider without the involvement of politicians. There are pros and cons, but I certainly understand the argument. Perhaps the same applies in this instance. I do not think the debate is assisting the process, and the question of whether a Minister’s conduct is in breach of the ministerial code and merits investigation should perhaps be a matter for the adviser to decide. Perhaps there is a case for the independent adviser to be given that power, but I hope that will be considered further. I know that the Public Administration Committee is also considering the matter. Perhaps that should be one of the matters to come out of this debate for the future.
Finally, the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham wrote to me a few weeks ago to ask whether the Select Committee would look into this matter. It has been very thoroughly considered by Lord Justice Leveson, who was able to obtain information and question witnesses under oath using a QC, which the independent adviser certainly would not have been able to do and the Select Committee might not have been able to do. However, if questions remain at the end of this I hope that the Secretary of State will appear before the Select Committee, as he does every year to answer and account for his performance as Secretary of State responsible for his Department. I have no doubt that my colleagues from both the Opposition Benches and the Government Benches will take the opportunity, if they have questions, to ask him them at that time. That is an appropriate mechanism by which Parliament holds not just this Secretary of State but all Ministers to account.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
It is not just one Minister who is being accused here, and not just the Government. The whole of politics is on trial. When the Prime Minister came to office, he came in with fine words about how the Government intended to be
“Transparent about what we do and how we do it. Determined to act in the national interest, above improper influence. Mindful of our duty. Above all, grateful for our chance to change our country.”
He has changed the country, but not for the better.
The ministerial code was introduced in its current form in 2007. There was one case serious enough to demand investigation, involving Shahid Malik, and that investigation took place. I remember no call for an investigation into the case that has been cited involving a number of e-mails that were certainly improper. There was no investigation into the case of the former Defence Secretary. That matter was of enormous seriousness, because he had a man who was paid by groups in other countries and he was not investigated.
Mr Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman talks about “enormous seriousness”. I do not know what the public make of this, but we are voting on a matter to do with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who is extremely honourable. This House has never voted on the insane levels of immigration or the death of our troops in Afghanistan. This is bonkers; it is student politics.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. This is an Opposition day and it is not up to the hon. Gentleman or the House to decide the subject of the debate. It is up to the Opposition and the debate is on the Secretary of State.
Paul Flynn
A person who thought that the former Defence Secretary should have been referred to the independent adviser was Sir Philip Mawer, the independent adviser himself. He resigned because of that.
Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. You have just made the point that the motion is about the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport. With respect, the hon. Gentleman seems to be referring to a completely different subject.
Mr Deputy Speaker
I will decide what is in order and what is not. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his advice and I am sure that the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) is developing his points in order to come on to that subject.
Paul Flynn
The point is the ministerial code and how it has been degraded by this Government and this Prime Minister. In the last Parliament and in this Parliament, the Public Administration Committee has thought that there should be an independent adviser who has the right to decide what he wants to investigate. If the Prime Minister is alleged to have broken the ministerial code, who will advise the independent adviser to investigate him? That advice is a function of the Public Administration Committee. There was no investigation of a far less serious complaint about the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, who failed to register an interest when he had a meal provided by a lobbyist on the excuse that that day he was eating with his private stomach, not his ministerial stomach. That was a matter for the ministerial code as it was a clear breach. The matter before us is the third breach that has taken place.
We should consider our position. We have just escaped from the screaming nightmare of the expenses scandal. Our standing in the country is no higher than it was two years ago and if the Prime Minister continues to ignore a major reform—which the ministerial code was—and use it to defend his own political position, we will sink further into the perception of sleaze as seen by the country.
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
The noxious stink of hypocrisy holds sway in this debate. It is unbelievable that the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues can compare an honest, genuine lapse of judgment by the special adviser to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State with the systematic, malicious and vindictive character assassination by Damian McBride on the family of the Chancellor, the Prime Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries), for which the former Prime Minister was never called on to resign.
Paul Flynn
I challenge anyone on the Government Benches to cite any example of anyone claiming that that incident should have been referred under the ministerial code. I have been interested in these matters for a good decade and there was no such claim. There was a case, and it was investigated. The ministerial code was used by the previous Labour Government. It has been abused three times by this Government when strong cases have come up.
We have another reform that has not been implemented by the Government. The Prime Minister made an impassioned plea on lobbying, saying that he was going to have a new lobbying code—because, as a former lobbyist, he understood it. We do not yet have a code. The one that has been put forward is lame and weak, and it would actually weaken the system. The Government have failed in their prime task—and the prime task of all us—which is to escape from the shame of the last two years, for which all of us were responsible. Many Members left the House, with their careers in ruins, and some suffered greatly, including many who were not guilty—collateral damage. I have just concluded a biography of one former Member who lost his life because of the effect of that scandal on his health.
The shame still lies on this House. The perception outside is that politics is debased and that we do not tell the truth or obey a moral code. I appeal to all Members not to see this as one of the usual tribal votes when we go into the Lobbies—[Interruption.] I cite the contributions that I made on the Public Administration Committee in this Parliament and the last, when I was as severe a critic of my own Government as I am of the excesses of this Government. This is a matter of honour for hon. Members here today.
I congratulate the Liberal Democrats on their position. This is not a question of winning a vote tonight—that does not matter. But it matters whether we stand up for the House of Commons reforms and whether we respect the reforms that have taken place. The ministerial code has been abused. Sir Alex Allan was put in place. The Committee examined him and questioned him, and unanimously—with a Conservative majority on the Committee—said that this man is not fit for this office. We communicated that to the Government and nothing was done. Elizabeth Filkin was regarded as a strong Rottweiler, and she was replaced by Sir Philip Mawer, who was regarded as not so strong, but he resigned because he was not called in to investigate what took place with Adam Werritty, which was a matter of great importance. Adam Werritty called himself an adviser, but he was paid by people outside and attended a ministerial meeting. What happened was absolution by resignation. He was allowed to resign before the country knew the full facts of what went on. What possibly happened was that his advice—his seat at the table—might have brought us closer to a war with Iran. I appeal to all hon. Members to treat this matter seriously—[Interruption.] If Members are not aware of this, it is because the investigation was carried out by Gus O’Donnell to get it over in a few days rather than having a full, legitimate investigation. That investigation was itself a breach of the ministerial code.
If we are to increase respect for ourselves in society, we have to subject every Minister to examination by someone who is genuinely independent. If the Prime Minister breaks the ministerial code, we need an independent investigator to decide, of his own volition, whether to investigate. Now we have a poodle who has been instructed by the Prime Minister—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We are discussing the Secretary of State, but we are in danger of concentrating on former or present Prime Ministers. I know that the hon. Gentleman is—rightly—constructing an argument, but we need to get to the Secretary of State.
Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Is calling a right hon. Member a poodle parliamentary language?
Mr Deputy Speaker
It was not a named Member, but we should be careful with language because we are in danger of reheating the Chamber, and that is what we do not wish to do—because we all want to hear each other’s speeches.
Paul Flynn
I apologise to the harmless and beautiful dogs to which I referred for any offence caused by their association with the people involved.
Yesterday, three former special advisers to Conservative Ministers were asked whether it would have been possible, in their posts as special advisers, to communicate 500 times with anybody without their Minister knowing. They laughed. The Secretary of State’s excuse is implausible and no one can believe that what went on happened without the Minister’s consent or knowledge. This is where he falls. The Conservatives have forgotten the lesson of the Mellor scandal: a resignation delayed is a disgrace multiplied. The Minister will regret the fact that he did not resign and that he did not submit his own case to the independent adviser for examination. Hanging on in this way will not help his career. He has erred and he should go.
Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD)
Several months ago, my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister made it absolutely clear, for reasons of transparency and public confidence, that if—following the appearance at Leveson by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport—questions remained to be answered, those questions should be thoroughly and adequately investigated. We believe that questions do remain to be thoroughly investigated, but let me be very clear about those questions.
The Liberal Democrats are clear that the way in which the Secretary of State handled the BSkyB bid, notwithstanding his known support for News Corporation and News International, was done absolutely by the book. Throughout, the Secretary of State, notwithstanding his own views on the matter, sought independent advice when he did not have to do so from Ofcom and the Office of Fair Trading, and he followed that advice. The one thing that has rarely been mentioned in this Chamber and outside is what decision the Secretary of State ultimately took. That decision was not in the interests of News Corporation because it denied it the level of involvement in Sky News that it then had and actually reduced its plurality position in news and current affairs. We therefore have no questions about how the Secretary of State handled that matter.
Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
Given the right hon. Gentleman’s support for the Secretary of State, I wonder why he will not be supporting him in the Lobby.
Mr Foster
If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to elaborate, I shall answer that very question.
Nevertheless, as I said a few seconds ago, I believe, and the Deputy Prime Minister believes, that there are questions, in particular about the ministerial code, that deserve thorough, independent investigation. We believe, as does the Chairman of the Public Administration Committee, that there is an urgent need to review the current procedure. It is probably inappropriate for the Prime Minister alone to be the sole judge of whether an independent investigation should take place. We believe it ought to be possible either for the special adviser to make the decision himself, or for it to be made on the advice of a senior civil servant or the Public Administration Committee. However, this decision was taken under the current rules by the Prime Minister against the advice offered by the Deputy Prime Minister and without consultation with him. It is therefore one that neither the Deputy Prime Minister nor the Liberal Democrats can endorse.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
Considering that the so-called independent adviser on ministerial interests was actually a wheeze set up by a previous Prime Minister, Tony Blair, to get out of a pickle, will my right hon. Friend ask the Labour Front-Bench team whether they would reform the system, which clearly is not fit for purpose?
Chris Bryant
The right hon. Gentleman earlier praised the process that the Secretary of State adopted in taking forward the bid. Has he read the memo that the Culture Secretary sent to the Prime Minister before he was in charge of the bid which makes it absolutely clear that what he intended and hoped to achieve was, surprisingly, exactly the same as what he actually achieved—in other words, the best possible outcome, in law, for Sky?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. Mr Bryant, you hope to catch my eye, and I was thinking of calling you next. I am sure that you will want to share all your information with the House then, rather than wasting it on interventions.
Mr Foster
We and the Deputy Prime Minister are clear that questions need to be answered. It would have been better had the matter been addressed by the independent adviser, but that is not the system we currently have, which is the system that we would like to change. I want to make it clear, however, that this is not, as some have suggested, an issue of collective responsibility. There was not a collective decision on this. It is not part of the coalition agreement but was a decision taken solely by the Prime Minister, and in no way will our vote, or absence of votes tonight, preclude us from continuing to work with our coalition partners on the issues agreed in the coalition agreement and in sorting out the economic mess in which the previous Government have left us.
Mrs Laing
Is my right hon. Friend aware that if the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills had not acted irresponsibly and unprofessionally in the first place, thus losing the right to make this important decision, the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, who was previously unprepared to take such a decision, would not have been put in this difficult position?
Mr Foster
The hon. Lady makes a factually correct point: if the Business Secretary had not had the responsibility removed from him, it would not have gone to my right hon. Friend the Culture Secretary.
I also want to make it absolutely clear why the Liberal Democrats are not prepared to go into the Lobby with the Labour party today. The House is well aware that this is not a decision for the House; it is a decision for the Prime Minister, and he has made his decision. This is, therefore, a political ruse by the Labour party, whose behaviour on these issues is frankly appalling. For example, paragraph 9.3 of the ministerial code states:
“Every effort should be made to avoid leaving significant announcements to the last day before a recess.”
On Tuesday 22 July 2008—the day before the recess—no fewer than 30 ministerial announcements were made, 10 of which were from the then Prime Minister. One year later, following the appalling behaviour of Mr Damian McBride, no action was taken over the Prime Minister’s responsibility for his special adviser, who was forced to resign for his behaviour. Furthermore, the Labour party misled not only the House but the country over the war in Iraq, and has spent years trying to cosy up to the Murdochs. There is no way we will join Labour Members in the Lobby today.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
The Secretary of State is a nice man. He is courteous; he is polite; that is not in doubt—but that is not the matter in hand today. It is also perfectly understandable that on certain occasions the House is misled. It is not uncommon for a Minister to say something in the honest belief that what he is saying is true, and for it to turn out not to be true—a distinction that he himself made. That is why there is a means of correcting the record. I did that myself quite recently. I believe that the House sees no dishonour in correcting the record—indeed, quite the reverse: it enhances somebody’s reputation.
The issue, therefore, is the deliberate misleading of Parliament and the requirement, in the words of the code,
“that Ministers give accurate and truthful information to Parliament, correcting any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity.”
Evidence of not complying with the code can be drawn from the fact that the misinformation provided was emphatic rather than tentative, was repeated, was not corrected when fuller information was available or was calculated to deceive for political advantage. I believe that there is prima facie evidence that all these things apply to the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport.
Some facts are not in dispute. First, the Secretary of State was a strong supporter of Sky in general and the bid in particular. Indeed, he wrote to tell the Prime Minister so, he texted James Murdoch so on the very day he was given control of the bid, and he told me so in September 2010. Secondly, James Murdoch knew what the Secretary of State was going to say before Parliament did. Thirdly, Fred Michel is not a clairvoyant; he was given privileged information directly by Adam Smith, the special adviser to the Secretary of State, quite possibly breaking the law. This was not just on one occasion; it was repeated time and again—hundreds of texts, dozens of e-mails and who knows how many phone calls of which we have not yet been informed.
Fourthly, the Secretary of State doubts that
“there’s a minister who worked more closely with a special adviser than I worked with Adam Smith”—
closer than DEFRA special adviser Osborne worked with Douglas Hogg and closer than Treasury special adviser Cameron worked with Norman Lamont. Yet the Secretary of State expects us to believe that he had no idea what his special adviser was up to; no idea that he was colluding with Sky in a way that would have led to an expensive judicial review, which the taxpayer would have had to pay for if the bid had not been scuppered by the phone-hacking revelations. He has been hanging out with News International so much that he even expects us to accept the “one rogue reporter” defence that News International deployed, long after it knew that it was a lie in relation to hacking.
Mr Jeremy Hunt
Let me just correct the hon. Gentleman. It is standard practice for my Department, and indeed other Departments, to let companies know if there is a statement being made in Parliament about them in advance of that statement being made, and that is exactly what Adam Smith was doing, and it was proper that he should do so—I believe in every situation, but we are still looking through the evidence very carefully. Secondly, if, as the hon. Gentleman says, I had a plan—some grand scheme—that was going to deliver BSkyB to News Corp, why would I say that I was going to ask for the opinion of independent regulators, whose advice I have absolutely no control over, and that I was going to publish it at the same time as I published my decision? The reason I did that was because I was setting aside the views I had prior to the bid taking place, and that has been vindicated by every single page of the evidence.
Chris Bryant
I am sorry, but I simply do not believe the Secretary of State, because I believe that he secured precisely the outcome that he wanted to achieve—or that he wanted the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills to achieve—and that is exactly what he put in the memo to the Prime Minister before he took over the bid. Secondly, in relation to providing information, what is key about—
Chris Bryant
If the right hon. Gentleman will wait a moment and just let me finish—[Interruption.] If the Whip could just calm down—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. Let us get back to a sensible debate and let us have a little more courtesy from the Front Benches on both sides.
Chris Bryant
I will give way again to the Secretary of State in a moment, but I just want to answer the point about providing information to Sky before it was available to this House. Yes, there are certain circumstances where that option is available to a Secretary of State, but not normally before the markets have opened, not when it can be used for commercial advantage for that organisation and not when people on the other side of the bid have been treated in a completely different way. That is why I think the Financial Services Authority may still want to investigate.
Mr Hunt
I just want to understand: is the hon. Gentleman actually saying that the independent advice that I received from Ofcom and the OFT was not, in fact, independent? If I ask for independent advice, what that means is that I do not know what it is going to say. Unless I have very good reason, I am likely to follow that advice. That could not possibly be the actions of someone who was trying to achieve a specific outcome.
Chris Bryant
I am afraid that the issue is the way in which the back channel was organised through the Secretary of State’s special adviser, Adam Smith, of whom the right hon. Gentleman has said there has never been a closer working relationship between a Minister and a special adviser—and we are meant to believe that the information this person was providing to Sky was not material—and the process whereby all the e-mails that were provided made it absolutely clear what was in the Secretary of State’s mind and how he was trying to secure that outcome.
That brings me to the central charges: first, that the Secretary of State deliberately misled Parliament. He told Parliament in March 2011 that he had published
“all the documents relating to all the meetings—all the consultation documents, all the submissions we received, all the exchanges between my Department and News Corporation.”—[Official Report, 3 March 2011; Vol. 524, c. 526.]
That was a very, very emphatic statement, which clearly had not been verified, because then, on 7 September, he tried to backtrack a bit—or cover his tracks. In a written answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann), the Secretary of State said:
“A search for correspondence from officials, press officers and special advisers to and from all the individuals listed would incur disproportionate cost to collect.”—[Official Report, 7 September 2011; Vol. 532, c. 616.]
He did not choose to correct the previous statement. He chose not to reveal that he had texted James Murdoch himself and had sent a memo to the Prime Minister. Far from exonerating the Secretary of State, the answer he provided on 7 September proves beyond doubt that he deliberately failed to tell the whole truth to this House. It was only the legal powers vested in Leveson that forced the truth out into the open.
Kevin Brennan
On that point, is it not a further requirement of the ministerial code that the Secretary of State should be as open as possible with Parliament? His conduct in this matter, and in the instance that my hon. Friend has mentioned, is clearly an example of his not being as open as possible with Parliament.
Chris Bryant
This House has regularly excoriated Ministers when they have resorted too swiftly to the argument that it is too expensive to provide the full information, but to be honest, I cannot see how it could have been too expensive to have found the memo that the Secretary of State wrote to the Prime Minister—or, for that matter, the text messages that the Secretary of State sent to the people concerned.
There are some other facts to be dealt with. The deliberate nature of the misinformation is also evidenced by the Secretary of State’s response, following his statement in April this year, to questions from two Back Benchers—both doubtless inspired directly by the Whips, as was the question posed earlier by the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns). When one Back Bencher—helped, I am sure—asked him how many conversations he had had, meaning how many with News International and News Corporation, the Secretary of State said, quite categorically and emphatically, “zero”. When another Back Bencher—a Conservative Member; this did not come out of the blue—asked whether the Secretary of State recognised the conversations attributed to him by Fred Michel, he said:
“I do not. Throughout the bid process, when I got responsibility for it, the contact that I had with Fred Michel was only at official meetings that were minuted with other people present. The fact is that there is a whole pile of e-mails—54 in total—in which he talks about having contact with me, but that simply did not happen.”—[Official Report, 25 April 2012; Vol. 961, c. 543.]
Neither response was unpremeditated; they were deliberately placed on the record. Both are deliberate obfuscations and lies.
Mr Jeremy Hunt
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not wish to mislead the House, so let me just tell him that in both cases the question I was asked—one was from my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) and the other was from my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham)—referred to the 54 e-mails that Fred Michel wrote in which he talked about conversations with “JH”. In both cases I confirmed that no such conversations with me had happened.
Chris Bryant
No, I am afraid that that is not the precise nature of the conversation, but I am short for time now. I am quite happy to correspond with the Secretary of State, but I believe that he misled and that he deliberately did so on those occasions.
Chris Bryant
I am not going to give way further, because I have already given way on four occasions to the Secretary of State.
The proof that those claims were untrue is that there was un-minuted contact when the Secretary of State had control of the bid—twice on 20 January 2011, once on 21 January, three times on 3 March, three times on 13 March and once on 3 July. He could have corrected the record, but without Rupert Murdoch, we would never have known about it. That is the honest truth of this matter.
The Secretary of State has always protested that, once in charge of the bid, he operated impartially. Yet despite being directly advised on 10 November 2010 not to have any external discussions on the BSkyB media merger, he texted the Chancellor on the day that he acquired responsibility for the bid to say:
“Just been called by James M. His lawyers are meeting now and saying it calls into question legitimacy of whole process from beginning.”
It is absolutely clear that the Secretary of State had a conversation that he had been advised he should not have, precisely and in terms. He was colluding with News Corporation, and to deny it again today is yet another way of misleading the House.
It has often been said by the Prime Minister that all these issues have been dealt with by Leveson, but the Leveson inquiry, because of article IX of the Bill of Rights, has absolutely no power; indeed, it is legally barred from questioning or impeaching any proceeding in Parliament. That is why not a single question was posed about any of these matters to the Secretary of State and why there has to be a reference to the independent adviser.
I end with these few words:
“this is a shabby, shabby business”.
Not my words: the words of a full-time Murdoch employee and former Tory Member of Parliament, Matthew Parris.
Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
The first thing I would say to the House about this debate is that it represents a failure of government and a failure of our politics. The exchanges that have just taken place between the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who is showing extraordinary forbearance under immense pressure, demonstrate that this is not the forum, the place or the way to resolve these issues. It should never be necessary for such a motion to be tabled.
Earlier this year, the Public Administration Committee, which I chair, again made the recommendation that would render motions such as this redundant. Our report, entitled “The Prime Minister’s adviser on Ministers’ interests: independent or not?”, was published on 17 March, before the controversy about my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State arose.
Our principal recommendation, as has already been advertised by the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn), is that the independent adviser should be empowered to instigate his own investigations. There is nothing radical about that. Our predecessor Committee made the same recommendation in the last Parliament, and I would say to my Committee colleague, the hon. Member for Newport West, that although he might be tribal, and although he might be excoriating about this Government, he is completely consistent, because he was just as excoriating about the previous Government. Our predecessor Committee, on which he served, made the same recommendation.
That is exactly how other regulators work, and it is how our own Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards operates. He would command little public confidence if he could not instigate his own investigations. The Committee on Standards in Public Life has recommended the same thing for the Prime Minister’s adviser on ministerial interests, on more than one occasion. The mystery is why these recommendations have not been implemented, and why the previous Labour Government did not accept them. The Opposition are now proposing this motion precisely because their Government refused to implement them.
Greg Mulholland
I am pleased to serve under my hon. Friend’s chairmanship on the Public Administration Committee. Does he agree that this would be a great opportunity for all three party leaders to commit to fulfilling our Committee’s recommendations, and to agreeing that the independent adviser—who is not currently independent—should clearly be able to instigate his own investigations? Does my hon. Friend believe that we could get such a commitment from all three party leaders today?
Mr Jenkin
I would very much like that. This is not a difficult recommendation for the Government to accept. No legislation is required. The Prime Minister could simply accept it and implement it.
We are still waiting for the Government’s response to our report. The previous Government declined to take up the recommendation, explaining that
“it must ultimately be for the Prime Minister to account to Parliament for his decisions and actions in relation to the appointment of his Ministers”.
So the Opposition have no one but themselves to blame for the fact that they have had to table this motion today.
Why would it be desirable for the independent adviser to decide what to investigate without waiting for a referral from the Prime Minister? The expectation that that should be the case is generated by the official job title. It is hard to see how any adviser on Ministers’ interests can be deemed to be independent if he is unable to investigate prima facie breaches of the ministerial code without the permission of the Prime Minister. It is only his independence from Government that can provide the necessary assurance that Ministers, including the Prime Minister, will be held objectively and impartially to the standards of the ministerial code. If we deprive him of his independence by depriving him of his initiative, we remove the assurance that we want the public to have.
Above all, it is surely beneficial for Prime Ministers to be absolved of the invidious duty of deciding whether or not to refer potential breaches to the independent adviser. With that responsibility comes a great deal of controversy and public opprobrium. A Prime Minister is damned if he does and damned if he does not. Either he condemns his colleague by referring him, placing him under immediate pressure to resign, or he condemns himself, because it looks as though he is protecting someone from proper scrutiny. I wonder whether, if the Prime Minister had referred this matter to the independent adviser immediately, the Secretary of State would already have been investigated for any breach of the ministerial code by now, and exonerated. This situation places the Secretary of State in an invidious position.
Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)
I am following my hon. Friend’s argument carefully. Does he agree that the Opposition cannot have it both ways? They cannot spend weeks running around saying that Sir Alex Allan should investigate this matter, and then, when he says that he cannot add any more, say that he is not really independent and should not investigate the matter anyway.
Mr Jenkin
I will come to that point. It is ironic that the hon. Member for Newport West describes Sir Alex Allan as a poodle. That is not what we said in our report, incidentally. We were concerned about the manner of his appointment, and about whether it was appropriate for a recently retired civil servant to take that role, because he would not be seen as independent. We did not say that he was not fit to fulfil the role.
Paul Flynn
May I recommend that the hon. Gentleman re-read the report, and especially the minority report that I wrote, which I commend to him for its literary qualities alone? The report that was agreed by the majority of the Committee stated that Sir Alex Allan
“was unsuited to this role because he did not convince us that he would be able to demonstrate the independence the post requires.”
In more vigorous language, that means that he is not a rottweiler but a poodle.
Mr Jenkin
Those are the hon. Gentleman’s words, but the Committee went on to say:
“In fairness, it is unlikely that many retiring civil servants will have had the opportunity to demonstrate the necessary independence from Government in their career to date.”
I think that that places the right emphasis on the matter. If the role is to be seen to be independent, the manner of the appointment needs to be different and it would help to have someone who had demonstrated independence in their career to date.
Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that an investigation should happen only if it is needed and merited?
Mr Jenkin
That would be a matter for the independent adviser, not the Prime Minister, to decide.
At the start of the present Parliament, the Committee resolved not to inquire into individual cases. Accordingly, we have made no judgment of any of the evidence on the conduct of the Secretary of State, which others in the House seem to have done. It is therefore not for me to say whether the Prime Minister should refer the Secretary of State to the independent adviser. It is highly unlikely that there are many right hon. or hon. Members who take a disinterested view of the evidence. Indeed, some of those named on the motion have already called for the Secretary of State’s resignation; they have already made up their minds. I put it to the House that this is effectively a vote of confidence in the Minister, rather than a decision of the House whether or not to refer.
That is precisely why it should be for the independent adviser himself to decide whether to investigate. That would take the decision out of the political arena and place it firmly in the hands of a person who is impartial in these matters. That is the basis of everything I have said on this matter. I have never made a judgment about the merits or otherwise of the case in question.
Mr Jenkin
If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I will not.
Now that Sir Alex Allan himself has said that the Leveson inquiry’s probing and taking evidence under oath means that he does not believe that he could usefully add to the facts in this case, I personally wonder why the Opposition are persisting with the motion.
This does not absolve the Government from addressing many awkward questions. I have too many remarks for the time available, but they concern matters that the Government might not want to hear about, including the role and function of special advisers. I am happy to inform my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) that the Public Administration Committee had already embarked on an inquiry into this subject before the resignation of Adam Smith, which served only to intensify the debate about numbers of special advisers, about what they are really there for, about whether the new code of conduct for special advisers is effective, and about how special advisers should be held accountable for what they do, and to whom. Under the Blair Administration, the role of special advisers was changed. Happily, it has now changed back, but this has done something to change the terms of trade for special advisers in government, and Whitehall is still adapting to that change. Our inquiry is exploring that matter.
There are further questions to which we still need answers. Whom did Adam Smith really believe he was serving in his role as go-between? Was it his Secretary of State, who is nominally responsible for the conduct of special advisers under the ministerial code? Or was it “the government as a whole”? That is a phrase I use advisedly, because the code was changed under the new Government, and all special advisers now serve “the government as a whole”. Has that phrase subtly changed the accountability of SpAds so that they are now no longer clear about to whom they are ultimately accountable?
What is the role of the permanent secretary in the supervision of the conduct of a special adviser, who is, after all, still a civil servant? I would even go so far as to ask—perhaps controversially—whether the top of the civil service has lost some of the self-confidence and authority that in yesteryear might have seen a permanent secretary act more decisively in such a situation. I hope that we will never again see a special adviser fired from his job for doing what he believed to be the right thing, simply because he had been left in ignorance of the boundaries of conduct that he should have observed.
Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab)
I am grateful for the opportunity to follow the Chairman of the Public Administration Committee, the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin). I think that his last remarks should be heard by the Secretary of State, who, at the very least, must conclude that there was a gross dereliction of duty in his failure to supervise and properly manage his special adviser on an issue that was not a minor matter for his Department but an £8 billion takeover at the centre of the media dominating our country. It is inconceivable that the Secretary of State was able, as he claims, to allow his special adviser to operate in such a way without ever knowing what was going on. That alone should be cause for him to consider his position.
Secondly, let us deal with this idea, compounded by the Prime Minister today, that Sir Alex Allan’s letter in any way vindicates the Prime Minister’s decision not to send this matter to the independent adviser. The question is not the facts, but the judgment that should be made on the facts. That can be done only by Sir Alex Allan. The case of Baroness Warsi has been referred to him, and the Prime Minister did not suggest today that there were any unknown facts in her case; he wanted the independent adviser’s view on her conduct. That is all Labour Members are asking for in this case—and not a single argument has been given for resisting it.
Many of the facts are known, but I want to concentrate on the part that briefly involved me personally in the saga. As shadow Business Secretary, I was preparing—until the previous Business Secretary was caught declaring war on Murdoch—to shadow this procedure. When the decision was taken to refer it to the Culture Secretary, I wrote to Sir Gus O’Donnell on 22 December, referring to public statements made by the Secretary of State and asking whether, in the light of those statements, Sir Gus was satisfied that the Secretary of State could rule with impartiality on this matter.
As is now well known, Sir Gus replied to me on 22 December, stating, having taken advice:
“I am satisfied that those statements do not amount to a pre-judgement of the case in question”.
That seems pretty clear, and that was the judgment made at the time. The judgment has been relied upon by the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State on countless occasions since to justify the Secretary of State’s being asked to exercise that role. It is now clear, is it not, that Sir Gus O’Donnell did not have available to him or his lawyers all the evidence that he might have considered about the suitability or the impartiality of the Secretary of State? Not only that, as the Culture Secretary and the Prime Minister, who relied on Sir Gus’s advice, actively, knowingly and deliberately kept the Cabinet Secretary in the dark about what had been going on between them in respect of matters that were at the very least entirely relevant to whether this Secretary of State was a suitable person to conduct this process.
Kevin Brennan
While my right hon. Friend was making this accusation, the Culture Secretary was shaking his head. He now has an opportunity to refute the allegation by intervening. Would my right hon. Friend welcome such an intervention?
Mr Denham
I would indeed welcome an intervention that told the House why neither the Secretary of State nor the Prime Minister thought it appropriate to tell the Cabinet Secretary of the existence of the November memo to the Prime Minister. The Culture Secretary should have gone to the Cabinet Secretary and said: “This is relevant to your decision as to whether I am a suitable person”. Why did the Secretary of State not make that available?
Mr Jeremy Hunt
Because I was not party to any of the discussions between the Prime Minister and the Cabinet Secretary.
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. When an hon. or right hon. Member starts a sentence with “Any honest” something or other, we are getting close to the time when we need to be careful.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
That is not a point of order for the Chair. We must use temperate language throughout this debate. That would be incredibly useful for its tone. We also need to be aware that the winding-up speeches will commence at around 3.45 pm, so it would helpful if we focused on the subject matter of the debate.
Mr Denham
It must, shall we say, have occurred to the Secretary of State that the Cabinet Secretary did not know of his memo. It must certainly have occurred to the Prime Minister that the Cabinet Secretary could not possibly have had the chance to consider that memo before he wrote the letter. Thus, from 22 December onwards, the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister have relied essentially on a fiction—a letter from Sir Gus O’Donnell that relied on his not knowing what had been going on between them in the memos.
Mr Denham
I need to make some progress.
What do we now know about the conduct of the Secretary of State? On 12 November 2010, he was advised not to have any external discussions on the merger and not to write to the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills about it. He was told that if he did so, it carried risks to the robustness of the decisions.
As other Members have said, there were two key parts to the memo sent to the Prime Minister. The first lets us know in no unambiguous terms of the Secretary of State’s support for the merger proceeding and his belief that if it were blocked, our media sector would suffer for years. Secondly, however, and of equal significance, it proposed a meeting between the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, the Business Secretary and the Culture Secretary himself
“to discuss the policy issues that are thrown up as a result.”
In the light of the legal advice given to the Secretary of State on 12 November, he must have known not only that sending that memo was inappropriate, but that the course of action he was proposing—a cabal of Ministers at the top of Government involving the one person who was meant to be acting in a quasi-judicial manner and who should have had no discussions and no connections with anyone else—flew in the face of the advice he had been given and was clearly acting in an entirely inappropriate manner.
Damian Collins
The right hon. Gentleman has read out the last sentence of the memo. Will he read out the preceding sentence?
Mr Denham
The previous sentence referred to the procedural processes. [Interruption.] Let me acknowledge that the memo refers to the proper procedures, but I will make this point to the House. The Secretary of State seems to be under the impression that if only he litters his memos and letters with the occasional reference to proper procedure, he can behave in a way that is entirely improper and outside the procedure. The sentence about proper procedure to which the hon. Gentleman wants me to refer is totally invalidated by the following sentence, which effectively says, “Let’s do something completely improper”—have a meeting involving the Business Secretary. The Secretary of State, of all people, should have had no discussions with any Minister, the Prime Minister or the Deputy Prime Minister, because he was meant to be acting in a quasi-judicial manner.
My final point is about the relevance of the motion. I believe that the Secretary of State’s and, indeed, the Prime Minister’s actions in concealing this memo are an absolute disgrace, placing the advice that the Cabinet Secretary was able to give us in a very bad light. They failed to correct that; they failed to go to the Cabinet Secretary to say, “You should know about his memo.” What is more, and it is directly relevant to the motion, when the Culture Secretary had the opportunity to put the record straight on 25 April in response to my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell), he failed to do so. He has concealed the existence of the memo, concealed the fact that he was proposing to act in an entirely inappropriate manner and failed to disclose it to the House when he had the opportunity to so. At the very least, shall we say, might that not suggest in the mind of a reasonable person that there is a question or two for Sir Alex Allan to consider? It is the refusal even to look into these matters that makes this matter such a disgrace. That is why this motion should be carried.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. The time limit is reduced to six minutes.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
I am greatly saddened by the motion. I think that it is a terrible shame that it reflects the naked political opportunism that we are seeing on the Opposition Benches.
I have the greatest respect for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. I believe that ever since he was given responsibility for this process he has done exactly the right thing, and I am not aware that any evidence has been presented—although opinions, beliefs and smears have been presented today—suggesting that he did anything otherwise. I believe that engaging in this heated debate in the terms that have been expressed will do nothing but continue to drag politics into the mud, and that is something that should worry us all—an opinion that I share with the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn), who is no longer present, although I rarely share his opinions.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
I have listened carefully to the arguments advanced on both sides. Let us cut through all the political point-scoring, spin and hype. The crucial question, to which the hon. Lady has referred, is whether, during the period in which the Secretary of State had responsibility and a quasi-judicial role, he acted in a proper way in carrying out his duty. Unless there is hard evidence to the contrary, that should determine how we vote this afternoon.
Dr Coffey
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct, and given what he has said, I hope that he will join us in the Lobby and oppose this shameful motion.
All sorts of claims have been thrown out about improper behaviour, but for the public outside, the reality is that News Corp still has only a 39% shareholding in BSkyB. If, as Opposition Members have suggested, there was collusion and an agenda, surely the process would have been completed some time ago. The reality is very different: the reality is that the Enterprise Act 2002 was followed properly, and representations were made in line with the law. Opposition Members may talk about perceptions, but the law must be followed. I am absolutely confident that by taking independent advice and, indeed, going further than he needed to, my right hon. Friend showed that he was setting aside his own view that this could be the right thing for our media. He set that view aside when he took on his responsibility, and nothing has been said today that suggests anything to the contrary.
Angie Bray
I do not know whether my hon. Friend has ever heard the expression “Don’t let the facts spoil a good story”, but I think that it is about as appropriate a phrase that there could possibly be to describe what is happening today. Does my hon. Friend agree that we are entering the deepest realms of conspiracy theory?
Dr Coffey
I agree with my hon. Friend. This has been an extraordinary time. While I understand the politics of the Opposition, I wish that they would focus on the real issues that are affecting the country today, such as the economy and foreign affairs in, for instance, Syria. The Leader of the Opposition made no reference to those matters earlier.
There might be rather more positive feeling in the Chamber if the last Government had acted in any way that suggested that the ministerial code was being followed. Let me clarify that. I am not criticising the last Prime Minister for not referring himself to the ministerial adviser or resigning on matters affecting his own advisers which led to their being sacked or having to resign, and I think that the Opposition should extend the same courtesy to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. He trusted his special adviser strongly and has the highest regard for him—I have no reason to doubt that—but, again, things did not go well. The gentleman resigned, and my right hon. Friend acted honourably in accepting the resignation and making it clear that that behaviour was not appropriate.
Although I have taken two interventions, I do not wish to extend my speech unnecessarily, because I know that many other Members wish to speak. I will be voting against the motion because of its naked political opportunism, and because no evidence has been presented suggesting that my right hon. Friend acted in any way against the law, or the spirit of the law. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and BSkyB is still independent of News Corp’s ownership. Many frustrations were experienced along the way, which led to some of the excessive lobbying that we have seen. I encourage every Member to reject the motion out of hand.
Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab)
We are having this debate because it presents the only opportunity that the Opposition will have to try to get to the bottom of this matter. It is no good Government Members’ saying that it was wrong for us to table the motion. I agree with the Chairman of the Public Administration Committee, the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin). Perhaps when we were in government we should have taken the opportunity to do exactly what he suggested and appoint an independent adviser, someone who could have helped the Secretary of State in his present predicament—for it is a predicament. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) pointed out, the debate is clearly divisive in terms of the issues that we want to raise with each other, but we have not had an opportunity to question the Secretary of State and the permanent secretary in the Department about some of those issues.
Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con)
Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that the Secretary of State has given a very good account of himself twice in this place, and that on both occasions there were ample opportunities to question him? Moreover, he appeared before the Leveson inquiry for more than six hours under oath and was forensically examined, and not a shred of further contrary evidence emerged as a result. As a lawyer with some 23 years’ experience who has been listening carefully to the debate today, I fail to see what will be gained from the launching of a third inquiry, apart from blatant party political opportunism on the part of some of those in the Chamber.
Mr Sutcliffe
I do not accept that. I am not a lawyer, but I have had 18 years’ experience in the House of Commons, and I recall similar situations in which, unfortunately—and I mean unfortunately—Ministers have been put in the stressful position of having to defend themselves. Again unfortunately, on occasion over the years they have not been able to defend themselves, and have gone.
What was necessary on this occasion was the opportunity for an independent adviser to examine the Secretary of State’s actions. I understood from his responses that he firmly believes that he has done nothing wrong, and he is entitled to that belief, but questions are being asked by colleagues on all sides. Indeed, the right hon. Member for Bath (Mr Foster) has said that the coalition partners feel that there are questions to be answered.
Surely the Secretary of State must understand the depth of feeling among Opposition Members about some of the processes that took place. Certainly I, as a former Minister in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, could not believe that the special adviser had been given so much power to act in the way that he did. During our time in government, we dealt with the sale of the Tote and with the issue of the “crown jewels” —the question of what should and should not be televised. We received clear briefings from the permanent secretary about what our legal responsibilities were and about what we could not do.
When the Secretary of State made his statement some months ago, I asked him why the political adviser had been given the role of backstop or contact with News International. As I said earlier to the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale), the Chairman of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, given all the furore surrounding the issue and, in particular, the actions of the Business Secretary, the Secretary of State put himself in a terrible position—or was put in that position by the Prime Minister—in relation to the Department’s roles.
When we asked why the permanent secretary supported this action, the Secretary of State said that the permanent secretary had been “content”. The meaning of the word “content” is open to question. When the permanent secretary went to the Public Accounts Committee, he refused to answer questions on the issue. He has gone before the Leveson inquiry, but I can tell the hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) that none of the pertinent questions relating to this issue were asked at the inquiry. Where can parliamentarians get the opportunity to ask the questions that needed to be asked?
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s speech, and I know that he has considerable ministerial experience. He has made the point, properly, that when quasi-judicial procedures are adopted, Ministers must act very carefully within guidelines. Where is the hard evidence that this Secretary of State did not act in accordance with the careful strictures of the quasi-judicial procedure? It is all very well talking about feelings, but where is the evidence?
Mr Sutcliffe
My right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen raised that point in his questions to the Secretary of State. He also raised the issue of the relationship between the Secretary of State and the special adviser. I am beginning to support the ideas of the Chairman of the Public Administration Committee. If an independent adviser had had an opportunity to see that there was a problem—because it was a problem raised by Members in all parts of the House—that person could have investigated further. That was not the situation. I ask Members of all parties to consider how the public see this matter in relation to the wider issues. The press have taken a view, but how do the public get to find out what has taken place?
I have been a strong supporter of this House over many years, and believe we should be able to inquire about things through our Select Committee processes and so forth. As a Minister, I was happy to appear before Select Committees. There is an untold story here, however, and until it is told, with the opportunity for questioning, we will never know what happened. That is a terrible position for the Secretary of State to be in. I respect him and have had good dealings with him over many years, but I think he has been left in a vulnerable position by the Prime Minister, because an independent person has not at least had an opportunity to ascertain the facts, after which the Prime Minister can make a decision.
Alun Cairns
The reality is that the Secretary of State was questioned for six hours at the Leveson inquiry by a Queen’s counsel, and did not use parliamentary tactics of avoiding questions in different ways. Is the hon. Gentleman saying that six hours of questioning by an independent QC was inadequate?
Mr Sutcliffe
The Secretary of State was not asked any pertinent questions at the Leveson inquiry about the issues we are raising today.
On the subject of Leveson, we will have to wait and see the conclusions, but we all hope it makes recommendations that we can all support. The cost of that inquiry is also in the public mind, however. The Prime Minister put it across that Leveson would deal with this issue, but Leveson himself has said he could not deal with it for the reasons we heard earlier. I think it would have been cleaner and more appropriate for the ministerial code to have been employed. We have all argued for that code over the years, and having a story unfold under that code can be a protection for Ministers, not just a means to hold them to account. That has not happened, however. Questions remain unanswered, and as long as that remains the case the Secretary of State will continue to be in a difficult situation.
Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)
I agree with the hon. Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe) that this is an important issue that should be debated, and the Opposition should have an opportunity to raise it on the Floor of the House, but we have heard nothing new today—nothing that has not been covered many times before. With respect, I say to my right hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Mr Foster) that I did not hear what the pertinent extra questions that the Secretary of State must answer were; I did not learn what outstanding issues have not yet been covered. We have gone around in circles on all the old issues. That is why it was right for Sir Alex Allan to say there was nothing more he could add because what more was there to say after the six hours of evidence at the Leveson inquiry and all the previous opportunities for questioning on the Floor of the House?
A lot has been made of the memo that the Secretary of State sent to the Prime Minister. It was sent at a time when the Secretary of State had no idea that he would be asked to be involved in this process. The memo rightly deals with media policy and a recommendation about that any decision not to allow the bid to go forward should be taken on grounds of media plurality and not as a result of lobbying from outside organisations which may be open to judicial review. That was a perfectly proper point of view, and perfectly reasonable advice of the sort that a Culture Secretary might give to a Prime Minister.
Earlier, I asked the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) to read out the sentence in which the Secretary of State says:
“It would be totally wrong for the Government to get involved in a competition issue which has to be decided at arm’s length.”
Could the Secretary of State have been any clearer about his views on the process and how it should be followed by members of the Government? We should see his final sentence—his request for a meeting—in the context of that remark. There may well be some broader issues about media policy that it would be perfectly appropriate for the Culture Secretary and the Business Secretary to discuss with the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister—issues that were not at all specific to the merger deal that was on the table. The significance of this memo has been blown out of all proportion.
Let us turn to the guidance that the Secretary of State received. I have not heard any Member question the method by which he sought outside independent advice during the course of his deliberations on this matter, or challenge whether he asked for more information than he needed or ask questions about publishing all the advice on the record so everyone could see it—something no Secretary of State had done before in a similar situation. No one has questioned that, so I challenge the notion that the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) touched on at the beginning of the debate: that this process was always flawed and the Secretary of State was always prejudiced in his view, because there is absolutely no evidence of that at all. There is no evidence that the Secretary of State did anything other than follow the independent advice and undertake his legal obligations as Secretary of State through the process. No Member today has challenged him on the substance of what he did.
Let us consider what the Leader of the Opposition said at the Leveson inquiry yesterday. He was asked what his view was on how this process may be changed for the future—about what we can learn from what has happened. He said he thought politicians should remain involved. When this matter was debated last summer, that was not the view of the shadow Secretary of State, who said politicians should be taken out of the process entirely. The Labour party now believe politicians should be involved in taking these decisions. Where the Secretary of State moves away from independent advice, that should be published, and it can be reviewed and appealed. Under the Leader of the Opposition’s view of how things should work in future, the result would have been exactly the same. Nothing would have been different, because the Secretary of State followed all the advice, so there would have been no need for a referral or appeal. There can be no proper questions about whether something wrong was done.
Opposition Members claim there was some massive conspiracy to favour News Corporation, but they have absolutely no evidence of that. It is a bit like someone complaining that an assailant has picked their pocket even though they remain in possession of the wallet they claim has been stolen. The Secretary of State did not abuse his power. He was not open to influence and external lobbying from News Corporation that in any way could have affected his judgment, because there is no evidence of any such action by him.
Angie Bray
Is that not the disgraceful thing about today’s debate? We have had no new evidence, but just a lot of smears and highly partisan accusations. Such behaviour is what demeans the reputation of the House of Commons.
Damian Collins
My hon. Friend raises an important point. I believe there are no grounds for further inquiries; we have covered all these points. This is still an important issue, however, and it is perfectly valid for the House to debate it. The Secretary of State has now had a chance to come to the House and set the record straight on many of the important outstanding questions, but some Opposition Members will never be satisfied. The genesis of this debate came a few weeks ago when the shadow Secretary of State called for the resignation of the Secretary of State without having read the evidence submitted to the Leveson inquiry. The call came only 23 minutes after a great volume of paper had been produced. I cannot presume that the shadow Secretary of State read all of that in the 23 minutes it took to make the decision. She has dug a hole and kept on digging, and not been able to produce any new evidence—nothing of significance at all.
Why are we even in this position, why are we even having this debate and why do we know so much about what the Secretary of State said? At Prime Minister’s questions, the Prime Minister said the only reason why the News Corporation bid could have come in was that the last Government changed the rules on allowing foreign companies to own UK broadcasters. We would all be fascinated to see the chain of e-mails, text messages and correspondence between Ministers in the last Government on that matter, but we will never do so. We only know about this issue because the Prime Minister decided there should be a full public inquiry and all the information has been made public. Ministers have been questioned on the record about it.
We also know from the Leveson inquiry the reasons why Tony Blair did not feel the last Government should have had an inquiry in 2006-07, after the Information Commissioner’s report looking at illegal use of information in news stories had been published and after concerns had been raised. He did not do it because he did not want the fight with the press. The last Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), ducked that issue as well, despite the revelations in The Guardian about phone hacking and despite the work of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee in the last Parliament producing more concerns and more evidence. He did not dare take on the media and have this row.
This Government have done that. In the handling of the News Corporation-BSkyB merger, there can never have been a more transparent process in respect of understanding the thinking and working of a Secretary of State in making his decision. It is clear that the Secretary of State always followed independent advice, and no Member today has advanced any argument that questions that in any way.
Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)
May I begin by saying that I shall heed the advice that is often given by Mr Speaker about how we behave in the Chamber and, indeed, about our actions? Today has been a perfect example of point scoring—that is exactly what has been going on.
Let me begin in a non-partisan way. Since being elected as an executive member of the parliamentary Labour party, I have often objected to the association of Ministers, Prime Ministers and others with News International and other news outlets. After being elected to the PLP committee eight years ago, I raised that issue with the then Prime Minister, Tony Blair. I found it obscene that he travelled halfway around the world to court Rupert Murdoch and gain his support. I do not think that that should be allowed in any democracy, and I voiced concerns in the PLP on behalf of a number of people whom I represented who felt the same way.
My very good friend the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) was perhaps not as exercised as Tony Blair about going around the world and courting Rupert Murdoch’s support, but he had an opportunity when he was in office to introduce legislation that could have stopped at a stroke some of News International’s behaviour. From that point of view, I feel that I am exonerated, given the opinions that I expressed at the time. I genuinely believe that people outside are angry—people who do not have access to all the stuff about what he or she said and when and how they said it, and so on. They want to know that their politicians have the highest integrity and are not intimidated, bullied or bought by support. That is what they want to know, and that is the important thing about today.
The Secretary of State has an ally in the Scottish First Minister, who is dancing around the smoke signals in Scotland and is being equally evasive about his relationship with Rupert Murdoch. Hopefully, that will come out in the inquiry today, but we will have to see how it pans out. The Secretary of State has attended a number of meetings of the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport, of which I am a member, and I have the highest respect for him. However, because this whole thing has blown up, in future I would have difficulty taking seriously his judgment or his integrity. Conservative Back Benchers can speak for themselves, but I suggest that Labour members of the Committee would feel the same way.
We have heard recorded evidence or non-evidence about what happened, but we have not heard—perhaps my party is as guilty as anyone else—about the cosy dinners and meetings that take place at taxpayer-funded residences and are not recorded. We do not know what happened, what was said or what was agreed. That has got to stop too, because it does not help the public to understand exactly how the system works. Before the Conservatives came to power, their manifesto said that the party would clean up the image of politics and politicians. Perhaps the Secretary of State can tell us what the coalition, or the Conservative Government, have done to clean up that image. Certainly in correspondence that I receive people say that nothing has changed, or in fact that things have got worse.
Jim Sheridan
No, I will not bother.
May I draw another parallel with the situation that the Secretary of State is in? There is concern about the perception of the Olympics in this country. As things stand, transport workers in London are threatening to take industrial action and thereby divert attention away from what we hope will be a successful Olympics. By contrast, the Secretary of State is now a toxic Secretary of State with no credibility or integrity. People out there in the court of public opinion say that they do not want him as the leading light on the Olympics. He should do the honourable thing and go.
People have said that the Secretary of State came here with the utmost honesty and integrity, but I have to pay the utmost attention to the people who are responsible for bringing this whole thing out, my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson), my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who is no longer in his place, and my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly), who were terrific in how they analysed the information available to the Culture, Media and Sport Committee and managed to get it out of the Secretary of State and other senior politicians in the Conservative Government. I think that the Secretary of State should do the honourable thing and resign in order to give someone a clear opportunity to take us into the Olympics and ensure that they are a success.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. The time limit is being reduced to four minutes in order to accommodate more Members.
Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con)
If the Opposition could push home an issue of confidence in an individual Minister, they would lay a motion to cut his salary, but they cannot and have not done so. We have heard three points from the Opposition. First, there is a memo—they have not actually quoted from it—in which the Secretary of State said that it would be totally wrong to get involved in a competition issue which must be decided at arm’s length. Secondly, they go on about the special adviser and argue that the Secretary of State has to take responsibility for him, including discipline, according to the ministerial code. Once the Secretary of State found out about the tone and volume of the special adviser’s communications, he required him to resign. Thirdly, we are left with some sort of generalised accusation that the Secretary of State was a bit too friendly with the lobbyist Frédéric Michel and had informal contact with him that he should not have had—an accusation made without taking into account the fact that the Secretary of State and Frédéric Michel were in the same hospital while their wives were giving birth in adjoining rooms.
I will focus the rest of my remarks—[Interruption.] Well, that is all there is from the Opposition. I will focus the rest of my remarks on a constitutional issue. It is the Prime Minister who determines confidence in his Ministers. He has confidence in his excellent Secretary of State, who has acted with integrity throughout the process. What the Opposition are trying to do with this abnegatory motion is suggest that, rather than the Prime Minister or this House being responsible, some independent adviser should take charge. The Opposition refer to the ministerial code as if it is a written constitution, and to Sir Alex Allan as if he is the Supreme Court. The previous Cabinet Secretary, Lord Butler, said of the ministerial code:
“Ministers are accountable to Parliament, not a piece of paper.”
It is very important to look at least briefly at how the ministerial code has developed, because since it was published in 1992 it has been given a great significance, as if it is somehow more than a guideline. It was published in 1992 because the then Cabinet Secretary, Lord Butler, as he admitted in 1995, agitated for its publication, and it has been used since as if somehow it should supplant the Prime Minister’s or Parliament’s responsibility. The hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) suggests that somehow Sir Alex Allan should look at this matter as if the Prime Minister had done something wrong and decide whether he should stay, which is a preposterous suggestion. The Prime Minister is responsible to this House and we are responsible to our electorate.
There is a rather wonderful history of the genesis of the ministerial code and how it developed—it is the only such book I am aware of—by a lady called Amy Baker. I will quote one small section to Members. Prime Minister Attlee took responsibility for every part of the code himself; all the drafts and changes were done specifically by him. Once he ceased to be Prime Minister, however, the Cabinet Secretary took charge of the document, and the reason for that, according to this history of the code, is that
“it would have defeated the original object of the document, if every Prime Minister had been allowed to ‘hijack’ the rulebook for there own purposes… Hankey,”
the first Cabinet Secretary,
“had drafted the very first guidelines in order to establish some continuity of procedure which would enable the Cabinet Office to organise business without being disrupted too much on a change of government.”
I disagree with that. It is for the Government to decide. The civil service are using these issues as a naked power grab. With Adam Werritty they used it to say that somehow Ministers have to be regulated by the civil service in taking external advice. Now they use this to suggest that somehow all special advisers should report to Sir Jeremy Heywood. No, it is Ministers who are in charge, not the civil service.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
I am really disappointed by the way in which the Opposition have treated this debate. They seem to subscribe to the doctrine that if they say something often enough people will start to believe it, but that undermines the whole integrity of Parliament and, certainly, makes people question their integrity, purpose and motivation.
We heard from the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman), who is not in her place but opened the debate, a dismal litany of allegation after allegation, yet her fox has quite obviously been shot by the letter from Sir Alex Allan, who clearly states:
“I do not believe that I could usefully add to the facts in this case”.
Later in the debate, we heard from the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas), who on the one hand argued that the case should be referred to Sir Alex Allan, on the other said that Sir Alex was a poodle and not wholly independent—and then started misquoting the Public Administration Committee. So let us be frank: even if the case was referred to Sir Alex Allan, the Opposition would not like the outcome, because he says that he could not add to any of the evidence that has been presented.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend not agree that the approach adopted by Opposition Members is an hypocrisy of which J. Arthur Rank would have been proud?
Alun Cairns
I could not have described it better myself, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend.
Alun Cairns
I will in a moment.
I remind the House that it took 23 minutes for the shadow Secretary of State to come to the judgment that the Secretary of State should resign and, then, that he should be referred to Sir Alex Allan. That judgment—
Alun Cairns
I will in a moment.
That judgment came directly from testimony by James Murdoch and Frédéric Michel, the quality of whose evidence on other occasions the right hon. and learned Lady had herself questioned. So it took her 23 minutes to make that judgment—on someone whom she had doubted in the first place.
Chris Bryant
Well, it took the Prime Minister 15 minutes to decide that the Secretary of State was innocent. Let me turn to the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns), however, because he read out the Whips’ question earlier about Sir Alex Allan, but he is a member of the very Committee that stated:
“We felt, however, that he”—
Sir Alex Allan—
“was unsuited to this role because he did not convince us that he would be able to demonstrate the independence the post requires.”
Now, I know that the hon. Gentleman hardly ever turns up to the Committee, but that was his Committee’s conclusion.
Alun Cairns
We have already heard from the hon. Gentleman and from his hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham selective misquotations of the Public Administration Committee’s report, but, whatever Opposition Members say, time and again we can point to Sir Alex Allan’s letter, in which he states that
“I do not believe that I could usefully add to the facts in this case”.
Sir Alex is fully aware of what has been said at the Leveson inquiry, what has been said here in the Chamber and what has been said at the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, so Opposition Members are calling for—
Alun Cairns
I am sorry, but because of the limit I do not have time to give way to the hon. Gentleman, who I know has shown a strong interest in the matter.
Opposition Members are calling for the matter to be referred to someone, but if they do not like the outcome they will come out with the same judgment and call for the Secretary of State to go.
The key question is, was the issue handled properly? I say, absolutely yes and the Secretary of State has demonstrated the highest integrity, because at each and every stage he followed independent advice, which often went against the Murdoch interest. We have also heard that, because the Secretary of State followed that independent advice, James Murdoch was absolutely furious, so if there was a conspiracy it was pretty poorly planned.
Much has also been made of the letter from the Secretary of State to the Prime Minister, but, in view of the lobbying from the anti-Murdoch campaign leading up to that letter, and in view of the communications that I as a mere new Back Bencher had, I would be surprised if there was any Member who did not have a personal view on the issue. It would be almost impossible to pick out any Member, and certainly any Minister, who did not have an initial view on the matter. That is why the Secretary of State acted with the utmost integrity by taking advice and following it at each and every stage, and he did so because, as the letter shows, he was aware of the risk of a judicial review from the Murdochs and from the other side. He had no option other than to follow independent advice at every stage, and I am very glad he did.
I am extremely disappointed by the dismal litany that we heard from the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham. She and other Labour Members should be judged by their own standards, and I would point to their former Prime Ministers and their special advisers.
Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
We have had an important debate about ministerial conduct and how we protect the rights of this House in holding Ministers to account. We heard powerful speeches from my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) and my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). On the Government Benches, we heard from the right hon. Member for Bath (Mr Foster) and from the hon. Members for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) and for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), all of whom said that there are questions to answer, particularly to do with who should be allowed to initiate investigations into ministerial conduct.
This is a debate that Labour Members should not have had to initiate. In that regard, I have sympathy with the point made by the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex. There is already a perfectly good system to make sure that Ministers abide by the rules in their conduct of Government business and in ensuring that Parliament is told the truth, and it is called the ministerial code, an updated version of which is produced at the beginning of every new Parliament. An independent adviser on the code is available to offer advice to Ministers on their interests and to investigate any alleged breaches. It is for the Prime Minister to be the guardian of the code and to refer any alleged breaches to the independent adviser for investigation.
It is a clear and simple process, but what has happened in this case? I have read the ministerial code carefully, and I cannot find a clause that says, “This code applies to all members of the Government but the Prime Minister’s chums.” Will the Government be bringing out a new version to reflect this reality? Writing in the foreword of the most recent edition of the code, the Prime Minister said:
“Our new government has a particular and historic responsibility: to rebuild confidence in our political system…People have lost faith in politics and politicians. It is our duty to restore their trust. It is not enough simply to make a difference. We must be different.”
The Prime Minister talks the talk but he does not walk the walk.
Mr Jenkin
Following the comments of the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland), my Liberal Democrat colleague on the Public Administration Committee, will the hon. Lady commit her party to supporting our recommendation that the independent adviser should be able to instigate his own investigations?
Ms Eagle
The hon. Gentleman’s Committee has done this House a great service in publishing the report that is tagged with this debate. I think that situations have evolved since decisions were taken in the past. I certainly think that the suggestion that the independent adviser should be allowed to initiate investigations needs a fresh look in the light of the circumstances that have arisen. I, for one, have an open mind on that. He raises a very important subject that the House should debate. The Committee’s work on this is invaluable in the changing circumstances, and I look forward to its continuing.
The Prime Minister’s decision not to ask the independent adviser on ministerial interests to investigate the Culture Secretary totally contradicts the commitment that he gave in his own foreword to his own code. It also totally disregards clear, prima facie evidence that the code has been breached and that there are good grounds for an investigation. That prima facie case was set out very powerfully by my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda and hinted at in slightly shyer terms by the right hon. Member for Bath.
It took the Prime Minister 20 minutes from the conclusion of the Culture Secretary’s oral evidence to the Leveson inquiry to announce that there was no case to answer, but the Prime Minister was not considering the evidence, he was not interested in protecting the integrity of his Government, and he disregarded the need for Ministers to be straight with Parliament. That is a very important matter for the House. All he wanted to do was to protect his chum.
To their credit, the Liberal Democrats have decided that they cannot go along with the Prime Minister’s cynical charade. Good for them, but I struggle to see why they should not join us in the Lobby for the vote. They should be in the Lobby with us, upholding the integrity of the ministerial code and supporting our call for the Culture Secretary to be referred to the independent adviser. It is not too late. The right hon. Member for Bath said there were still questions for the Minister to answer, but he did not go into detail on what they were. Liberal Democrat Members have said that they believe a referral to the independent adviser is in order, and I hope that even at this late hour they will reconsider their position and decide to join us in the Division Lobby to send a powerful message to the Prime Minister that the House will not stand by and tolerate being lied to and the ministerial code being an optional extra.
The integrity of the Government’s relations with Parliament is at stake. We have an independent adviser on the ministerial code who was appointed on a not inconsiderable retainer of £20,000 per annum. He has been in place since November 2011 but the Prime Minister seems extraordinarily reluctant to call on his services. The Prime Minister blocked Sir Alex’s predecessor from investigating the former Defence Secretary. He now blocks Sir Alex from investigating the Culture Secretary.
Ministers have recently taken to telling the country that we all need to be working harder, but we have a ministerial adviser champing at the bit to launch an investigation, and the Prime Minister keeping him locked in a cupboard. What are we paying the independent adviser for? This something-for-nothing culture needs to end. Let the independent adviser do his job. What does the Prime Minister have to fear?
We heard today from right hon. and hon. Members how even a perfunctory look at the facts demonstrates that the Culture Secretary has a case to answer. Paragraph 1.2c of the ministerial code requires Ministers to
“give accurate and truthful information to Parliament”.
The Secretary of State told the House on 25 April:
“I made absolutely no interventions seeking to influence a quasi-judicial decision that was at that time the responsibility of the Secretary of State for Business”—[Official Report, 25 April 2012; Vol. 543, c. 973.]
Yet it turns out that the Culture Secretary was firing off memos to the Prime Minister backing the bid, and wanted a meeting with the Business Secretary to lobby him. I do not know what the Culture Secretary’s definition of “intervention” is, but it is not one that would be found in any English dictionary.
In his parliamentary statement in April the Secretary of State told the House that
“the contact that I had with Fred Michel was only at official meetings that were minuted with other people present”.—[Official Report, 25 April 2012; Vol. 543, c. 961]—
and that he had—I quote exactly—“zero” conversations with Michel. Yet it has now been revealed that he texted Michel directly when he had responsibility for overseeing the bid. In the Culture Secretary's “dictionary of convenient definitions” it appears that neither “contact” nor “conversations” mean text messages.
The Secretary of State assured Parliament on 3 March 2011 that he had published
“all the documents relating to all the meetings—all the consultation documents, all the submissions we received, all the exchanges between my Department and News Corporation.”—[Official Report, 3 March 2011; Vol. 524, c. 526.]
He had published all the documents, all the meetings, all the contacts except the 191 phone calls with News Corporation, the 158 e-mails with News Corporation, and the 799 text messages with News Corporation. What on earth does the Culture Secretary think “all” means?
We know that the Secretary of State is a keen dancer. Indeed, we have one of his Cabinet colleagues to thank for telling us that he has installed a sprung floor in his home, so that he can practise his “Strictly Come Dancing” routines. However, it is dancing on the head of a pin to claim that he did not intervene, that he was not in contact and that he had published all the evidence.
Parliament deserves better than this. It is crystal clear that the Secretary of State’s former special adviser effectively opened an improper back channel of direct communication with News Corporation. If the special adviser had gone rogue, one would have thought that on uncovering his activities the Culture Secretary would have fired him immediately. But no, the Culture Secretary first told his special adviser that he had done nothing wrong. The next day—I suspect after looking at the front pages—he told his special adviser,
“Everyone here thinks you need to go”,
before apparently adding that “everyone” did not necessarily include him.
Why has Adam Smith resigned when the Secretary of State feels that he himself has no case to answer? Is he expecting us to believe that he had no idea what his special adviser was up to in such a key area of policy, in which he had shown such prior interest? Paragraph 3.3 of the code makes it clear that Ministers must take responsibility for the actions of their special advisers. The Secretary of State must accept his responsibility.
We have a Cabinet Minister who told Parliament that he had not intervened when he had. We have a Cabinet Minister who told Parliament that he had had no contact with News Corporation lobbyists when he had. We have a Cabinet Minister who told Parliament that he had published all the documents when he had not. The Prime Minister knows all that, but he says that there is nothing for the adviser on the ministerial code to investigate. Who is he kidding? He cannot even persuade the Deputy Prime Minister of that fact.
Today, the House has an opportunity to make it clear that the ministerial code matters, that Ministers are accountable to this House and that the public can expect the highest standards from Ministers. The motion calls merely for Sir Alex Allan to investigate and for the existing system of ministerial accountability to this House to be used, rather than abused. I commend it to the House.
The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Young)
Although I wish that I could say that this has been a good debate, and despite some good contributions to it, it has not been. At business questions, I am asked by Members on both sides of the House for serious debates about matters of interest to our constituents. I contrast that with the miserable, opportunistic debate that we have had today. This has been a wasted opportunity, when we could have been debating issues of real interest to our constituents, such as Syria or the eurozone. Instead, we have been diverted on to this matter.
Let me deal with some of the contributions. The hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) made no distinction at all between the actions of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State before he assumed responsibility for the bid and those that he took afterwards. That was seized on by my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale), who said that it would have been astonishing if the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport had had no views on the issue before he took responsibility for it, but that he subsequently made it absolutely clear that he was acting properly and in accordance with the law in dealing with that responsibility.
My hon. Friend also made the interesting point that it was the last Labour Government who changed and expanded the role of special advisers—a matter that has now been referred to Alex Allan. Along with other hon. Members, my hon. Friend referred to the Public Administration Committee report, to which the Government will respond in due course.
Sir George Young
I will make just a little more progress.
The hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) made an uncharacteristically partisan speech. He focused on the performance of this Government, but conveniently overlooked all the failures of ministerial performance in the previous one. There was a gap in the account that he related to the House.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Mr Foster) made it absolutely clear that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State handled the bid by the book, to use his words, and had at several points taken decisions against the interests of News International. He said that one or two issues remained, although as my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) said, they were not defined. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bath implied that the failure to consult was behind the Liberal Democrats’ decision as much as anything else.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
I am not one of those who has disputed the Secretary of State’s honesty, but there is the question of responsibility for special advisers. The ministerial code states that responsibility for the management and conduct of special advisers, including, but not only, discipline, rests with the Minister who made the appointment. How did the Secretary of State effect that responsibility for the management and conduct of his special adviser?
Sir George Young
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made a statement to the House shortly afterwards and was cross-examined on that specific issue for a substantial time. He explained exactly what his responsibilities were and the action that he had taken.
Sir George Young
No, I will make a little more progress.
I very much regret the intervention that the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) made about my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. Despite Mr Speaker’s ruling, I believe that it did nothing to enhance Parliament’s reputation. I very much hope that at some point the hon. Gentleman will consider withdrawing what he said.
My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) referred to the thoughtful report that his Committee had just produced—before the recent controversy, as he pointed out. He rehearsed the argument for the role of the adviser on ministerial interests being self-starting rather than his having to wait for a referral. The Government will of course respond to that report in due course. He also touched on broader issues to do with the civil service and special advisers.
The best speech from the Labour Benches, if I may say so, came from the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham), but he missed the point by not distinguishing between what my right hon. Friend did before and after he assumed responsibility. He produced no evidence at all of my right hon. Friend’s decisions being in any way contaminated by what had happened before he assumed responsibility.
Mr Denham
Surely the issue for today’s debate is not the Secretary of State’s conduct on the merger but how he acted in relation to the provision of information to the House. My contribution did not deal one way or the other with his conduct on the merger; it was about his failure to disclose to the Cabinet Secretary his attempts to influence the decision before it was his responsibility.
Sir George Young
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State dealt with that point substantially in his contribution.
My hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) contrasted the actions of the previous Government with Labour Members’ criticism of the coalition Government, implying that they expect higher standards of us than they expected of themselves.
The hon. Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe) said that today’s debate was the only opportunity for the House to deal with the matter, ignoring the role of Select Committees, the statement that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made and the urgent question answered by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.
My hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) made a robust defence of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and rightly made the point that the ultimate decision rests with the Prime Minister. My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) said that the Opposition’s fox had been shot by the exchange of letters published today.
On the matter at hand, the controversy surrounding the Culture Secretary’s handling of the BSkyB bid first arose on 24 April. The next day, the Prime Minister responded to questions at Prime Minister’s Question Time and the Culture Secretary came to the House to give a full account of himself for just over an hour. The following week, the Prime Minister answered questions for 52 minutes, and two weeks ago my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State appeared in front of Lord Justice Leveson for almost eight hours. And yet when did the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) first call for his resignation? At 4.30 pm on 24 April, before a single question had been raised in Parliament and before he had had an opportunity to respond to any of the allegations.
Sir George Young
No. This is what the right hon. and learned Lady said on the BBC—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. Sir George Young has made it clear that he is not giving way. Will the House calm down in order for us to hear him?
Sir George Young
When the right hon. and learned Lady was questioned on the BBC on whether she had read the evidence before calling for the resignation of the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, she said:
“I already had formed the view that Jeremy Hunt had acted totally inappropriately even before those emails were published because when I saw James Murdoch’s evidence to Leveson, it was quite clear the Culture Secretary had given James Murdoch to understand that he was not impartial in the bid, that he was on his side”.
The right hon. and learned Lady is a former Leader of the House and I have respect for her, but is that not an extraordinarily ill-judged intervention for a qualified solicitor, a former Solicitor-General and an honorary Queen’s counsel? In what kind of banana republic would a lawyer convict somebody without a shred of evidence and before having had the opportunity to cross-examine a witness? If she is so quick to trust the word of a Murdoch at face value, will she today back Rupert Murdoch’s version of his telephone conversation with the former Prime Minister?
The truth is that the only people who made up their minds before looking at any of the facts were the right hon. and learned Lady and the Leader of the Opposition, not the Prime Minister. She has at least climbed down from the initial demand for resignation. She is now asking for a referral to the independent adviser—[Interruption.] That is the motion on the Order Paper. She has engaged in a humiliating climbdown.
Let us look at the case for referral. The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport has already been referred to, and attended, a forum that is, in a sense, far more rigorous than any process that Sir Alex Allan could follow. What could be more rigorous than eight hours of questioning by an experienced barrister, in public, on TV, under oath, in front of a judge-led inquiry?
Sir George Young
Nothing could be designed by the civil service that could come close to that level of scrutiny.
Sir George Young
I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, but I hope he enhances his reputation by withdrawing the remark he made about my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.
Chris Bryant
I am not going to withdraw anything; I will repeat the accusation. The Secretary of State deliberately misled this House. Why, when the Prime Minister spoke to the House and the Secretary of State answered a written question on 7 September, and on all the occasions to which the Leader of the House has referred, did they choose not to correct the record? The Secretary of State never chose to point out that he had written to the Prime Minister and been in correspondence with him, or that everything he said in the Chamber had been a lie?
Sir George Young
Not only has the hon. Gentleman made an accusation, he did not substantiate it. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State answered in his initial remarks all the hon. Gentleman’s points.
A number of Opposition Members referred to the Public Administration Committee report on the role of the independent adviser on Ministers’ interests. The Prime Minister has simply followed the precedent established by the previous Prime Minister. When the Committee recommended in the previous Parliament that the independent adviser be allowed to initiate his own inquiries—precisely the recommendation made by my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex—the outgoing Labour Government responded:
“it must ultimately be for the Prime Minister to account to Parliament for his decisions and actions in relation to the appointment of his Ministers.”
The Opposition’s charges against my right hon. Friend the Culture Secretary have been answered at length by my right hon. Friend and by the Prime Minister. On the question of misleading Parliament, the Culture Secretary has today responded in detail to each and every one of the Opposition’s allegations and he has swatted them away with relish. On the matter of special advisers, which is specifically referred to in the motion, it is unfortunate for Labour that that subject has been brought up in the same week as the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), sat before the Leveson inquiry and denied, as only he could, any knowledge that his political team briefed against his fellow Ministers and unleashed hell on his Chancellor. Indeed, it was lucky that we could see the former Prime Minister on our TV screens at all given that the air was thick with the smell of cordite from the smoking guns pointing in his direction.
Let me remind the House what the former Prime Minister said on Monday when asked whether his special advisers briefed against ministerial colleagues:
“I would hope not. I have no evidence of that.”
Let us see what the Leader of the Opposition said yesterday to the same inquiry:
“On Damian McBride, when I was a Cabinet Minister, I did raise a specific concern that I had with Mr Brown, I believe in…2008, about some of Mr McBride’s activities.”
As the shadow Justice Secretary said this morning on the BBC, they cannot both be right. It ill behoves the Opposition to lecture this Government on Ministers taking responsibility for their special advisers when the former Prime Minister took no responsibility for what his advisers got up to.
The issues we have been debating today will not divert the coalition from its core task of dealing with the huge deficit we inherited and rebalancing the economy. The Opposition are one party united in their opportunism; we are two parties coming together to sort out the mess they left behind. I urge the House to reject the motion.
Question put.
Safeguarding Children
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op)
I beg to move,
That this House notes the updated statutory guidance to safeguard and promote the welfare of children published on 12 June 2012; and calls on the Government to ensure that the needs of the child are at the centre of all assessments and decision-making processes regarding safeguarding, that appropriate information and guidance is provided to young people so they understand the risks of abuse and sexual exploitation, that all local authorities and decision-makers are upholding the highest standards when it comes to integrated care access and multi-disciplinary and multiagency working, and that early intervention programmes are promoted on the best available evidence, and to clarify who is responsible within Government for implementing the measures included in the new guidance.
Yesterday the Government published updated statutory guidance to safeguard and promote the welfare of children. I am sure that all parts of the House will welcome the opportunity to consider the Government’s proposals today. Our motion has been tabled to provide for such a debate, and it sets out five areas of concern.
Modern society places huge pressures on children and young people. Although the influences of adult life on children are not new, it is clear that the advent of social media, new pressures on parents and the increasing availability of sexual content are accelerating the process. The term “child protection” covers a wide spectrum of issues and crosses several Departments. From online grooming, child neglect and forced labour to the trafficking of minors, the challenge of ensuring that children get a safe and happy start in life has a moral imperative—a view that I know is shared in all parts of the House. However, it is not just a moral necessity we face: the long-term impact of child abuse—to take one important example—has been well documented. It is therefore critical that we invest in early intervention, not just for young children, but for older children as well, in order to reduce the long-term risks and costs.
It is one of the foremost duties of any civilised society to protect its most vulnerable members. It is clear that that duty was breached in the most horrific way in the recent case in Rochdale, and in the tragedies that befell Victoria Climbié and baby Peter Connelly. The Government were right to establish the Munro review, to provide a thoughtful, calm analysis of the challenges affecting the child protection system. I want to focus on the five areas that we have identified in the motion as being of particular importance, though I make no claim that they are fully comprehensive.
Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)
I am sure that the whole House will appreciate the approach that my hon. Friend is taking to this subject. I should like to give him some information to emphasise the urgency of this debate and the need to approach it in this atmosphere. Part of Birkenhead is so rich that it makes Hampstead look downmarket, but parts are not so advantaged. A couple of months ago, I asked three head teachers from the more challenged areas, in different meetings, what percentage of families they would not wish to be part of if they were a child. Independently, all three said about 40%. I then asked them what proportion of children they would like to see in care today, if there were no restriction on budgets. I am not saying that that is desirable, incidentally. They said 20%. So I have an image of a group of poor social workers having to fight over inadequate budgets—whatever party is in power—and thinking, “If I get the resources, I might be able to prevent a child’s murder. If my colleague is not as powerful as me, perhaps the murder will take place elsewhere.” Will my hon. Friend stress that this is not just about resources, however—they are important, but we will never have enough to deal with these issues—and that it is about what is happening to parenting more generally?
Stephen Twigg
I thank my right hon. Friend for that contribution. He has a long-standing record on these matters and is respected in all parts of the House for his work in this area. I will touch on some of those issues later in my speech.
The first of the five areas involves ensuring that we have a child-centred system, and that the needs of the child are the first consideration of the many professionals who are involved in child protection and safeguarding. This was at the heart of the Children Act 2004, and of other reforms brought in by the previous Labour Government. They include the establishment of the Office of the Children’s Commissioner and the focus on five clear outcomes through Every Child Matters, which helped to deliver some of the previous Government’s most successful policies, including the reduction in child poverty. Yesterday’s report from the Child Poverty Action Group reminded us of that achievement, and of the real danger that that progress could be reversed by the present Government.
Let me place on record our support for the work of Professor Eileen Munro, who has done a service to the Government and to the country in promoting this child-centred approach. She is absolutely right to focus on the journey of the child through the system. Any shift from a process that is focused excessively on compliance to one that better values the expertise of professionals is one that will have my support. However, we need to strike a balance between allowing professionals the flexibility to make a judgment on a child’s needs and the need for clear rules and principles. There is clearly a danger that a big reduction in the amount of guidance could take us from one undesirable state to another.
Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op)
Does my hon. Friend share my concern that child protection is no longer specifically included in the Ofsted framework, although I am told that it is implicit? Does he also share my concern that the Education Act 2011 puts more power into teachers’ hands and puts children at risk by allowing a teacher of the opposite gender to search a child without another adult being present? Does he agree that we should look into those issues more carefully?
Stephen Twigg
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s current and previous work in this area, including her chairing of the all-party parliamentary group on child protection. She has raised a number of proper concerns about the changes that have been made, and I will return later in my speech to some of them—including the involvement of Ofsted and the well-being of children.
As I was saying, there is a balance to be struck between professional flexibility and clear rules and principles. The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children has warned that
“the Government should not move too quickly to rapid deregulation. It needs to invest heavily in building the skills, confidence and experience of all professionals working with children.”
In its response, published today, to yesterday’s announcement, the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health says that it supports the slimlining of guidance, but it is worried that the downsizing might have gone too far so that vital information is no longer included. It provided the examples of training, lessons from research and, in particular, the safeguarding needs of particularly vulnerable groups, mentioning forced marriages, female genital mutilation and victims of trafficking.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that children in care, including those trafficked for purposes he has mentioned, including sexual exploitation, who find themselves up against the law should be treated first as children and victims, not as criminals? Something needs to be done to ensure that all agencies, including the police, regard that as a first principle.
Stephen Twigg
I absolutely share my hon. Friend’s concern in that regard. I hope the Minister will have something to say about that when he responds. The consultation on the draft guidance issued yesterday may provide an opportunity to clarify some of these matters. I hope that the Minister will have something to say about that when he speaks after me.
Professor Munro makes it clear in her report that the Government should not cherry-pick her recommendations. She says, for instance, that
“reducing prescription without creating a learning system will not secure the desired improvements in the system.”
We should remember that only one of her 15 recommendations is about reducing bureaucracy. The bulk of her report is about improving training and leadership in the system. As the Government make the move away from prescription, it is important that they are clear about how they intend to ensure robust checks and balances in the system and rigorous training and supervision and staff.
In her recent evidence to the Select Committee on Education, Professor Munro said that because
“there is so much change related directly both to child protection but also to the health and police reforms…we cannot be quite sure how they pan out in reality and whether we end up with some unintended clashes so there are gaps in the way services are being provided.”
If the Government’s own appointed adviser is warning that the changes could have these unintended consequences, it is clearly critical that Ministers heed that advice.
Taking the example of today’s Government announcement on shared parenting, while the principle of parental balance is of course important, it is vital that the change does not create more confusion and delays in the courts, which would not be in the interests of children, families or, indeed, of the taxpayer. David Norgrove in the family justice review cautioned against such a move, and as my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) has said:
“Children’s best interests should be the paramount consideration in decisions affecting them. That principle has been clear in law for over two decades. Ministers should think very carefully before they decide to weaken it.”
Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con)
David Norgrove is, of course, talking principally about equality of time. In family court cases in which I was involved, it was clear that when people started to talk about 9 o’clock in the morning until 5 o’clock in the evening and shared arrangements of equality during the week, it often proved divisive, whereas trying to reach agreement is in the best interests of the child. What I think the Government are trying to achieve through their shared parenting considerations is children receiving a shared time of quality care from both parents, which is a very different model from simply trying to cut the time in half.
Stephen Twigg
The hon. Gentleman, who I know has campaigned and spoken out on these issues for many years both before and after he came to the House, speaks with authority. What I am saying is that we need to tread very carefully, as these changes might have unintended consequences. I believe I am right in saying that evidence from Australia suggests that a similar change resulted in greater litigation and greater resort to the courts there. [Interruption.] The Minister says that the position is different there. Let us learn from the experience of other countries. We will study the Government’s specific proposals in detail today.
Norgrove recommended that
“children and young people should be given age-appropriate information to explain what is happening when they are involved in cases.”
They should be offered a menu of options setting out the ways in which they can do that if they wish. The court process is clearly an important part of that, but I think that we also need greater clarity from the Government on how we can ensure that children’s views are taken on board in the rest of the care system, which includes social workers.
We have been looking at the issue in our policy review, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) for the work that she did on it when she was in the shadow education team. Children often stress the importance of the monitoring of placements by social workers, and the importance of being able to talk to their own social worker alone. Often a social worker is a source of constancy—a rock—for a child who is moving between different foster carers or residential homes.
The second aim of our motion is to ensure that children and young people are given appropriate information and guidance so that they understand the risks of abuse and sexual exploitation. We fear that in too many cases young people may not be clear about how to report instances of abuse or exploitation, and that some may not understand that the acts in which they or their friends are involved constitute sexual abuse. I am sure that we were all shocked by yesterday’s “Channel 4 News” investigation of Habbo Hotel, a very popular website which is used by children as young as 10 and has 250 million users globally.
Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for enabling what I think is an incredibly important topic to be debated on the Floor of the House. I only wish that as many Members were present now as were present for the debate that preceded this one, because I think that this one is far more important.
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that one of the main problems is the accessing by children of inappropriate material on the internet, and does he welcome the Government’s commitment to formally reviewing an opt-in system? Many Members in all parts of the House believe that that would be a step forward, and a very good way of keeping our children safe.
Stephen Twigg
I am happy to give the hon. Lady the assurance that she seeks. As she says, that proposal has full cross-party support. My colleagues in the shadow home affairs team made the call, and she has made it as well. I think it vital for us to explore all practical options to ensure that the material that is available is age-appropriate.
The “Channel 4 News” investigation produced extremely disturbing evidence that children using the Habbo Hotel website are being sexually propositioned and encouraged to engage in inappropriate activities. I understand that the programme’s considerable body of evidence has been passed to the Government, and I should welcome an update from the Minister on what further action they will be taking in response to its investigation.
Voluntary organisations have a significant role to play in the provision of information, advice and guidance. Many organisations, including Beatbullying and the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, have played an important part and will continue to do so. There are also ways in which the media can be used to raise the profile of abuse and how it can be reported. As we know, the overwhelming majority of young people are confident about gaining access to online material, and as the hon. Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) pointed out, we need to ensure that that material is age-appropriate as well as accurate. There are obviously ways in which television resources can be used: soap story lines, for example, can be effective. I am certainly not suggesting that Ministers issue instructions regarding the plot lines of “Hollyoaks” or “EastEnders”, but there are smart and subtle ways in which we can raise awareness among young people.
Schools also have an important role to play, but I fear that the direction taken by the Secretary of State for Education is squeezing well-being out of the school environment. Ofsted is no longer required to measure well-being. The Secretary of State has described it as peripheral or even a distraction from academic education, although evidence shows that it can be an important foundation stone for academic success.
The third element is to ensure that all local authorities and decision makers are upholding the highest standards. We know there is huge variety within the system. Some places are pressing ahead with reform, while others are struggling with their caseloads and are unable, or even unwilling, to make the necessary changes. There is a widely held view that the Government’s top-down reorganisation of the NHS will mean, to quote Professor Munro, that
“child protection will get lost by people who do not directly deal with it and so do not fully understand its significance”
The Government need to clarify exactly where child safeguarding sits within the new NHS structures. The Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health has today said that we need a detailed safeguarding accountability framework from the Department of Heath which covers all the safeguarding issues and sets out the roles and responsibilities of each of the new commissioner and provider organisations.
In local government, there has been real innovation in a number of local authorities to ensure that there is an integrated team for when children enter child protection or the care system.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that multidisciplinary and multi-agency teams, such as Operation Messenger in my constituency, have a key role to play in identifying children and young people at risk from, for example, sexual exploitation? Does he also agree that although the guidance goes some way in the right direction, it does not go far enough? We must support such partnerships and ensure the practices they follow are based on evidence.
Stephen Twigg
My hon. Friend is right, and I hope we will have an opportunity in today’s debate and the consultation period the Government have set out to make those very important points so the guidance is stronger than the draft guidance issued yesterday.
I want to highlight some excellent practice in the London borough of Hackney, which has been well evaluated. Hackney is one of a number of London boroughs that have established MASH—multi-agency safeguarding hub—teams to bring together the key services in one place. London boroughs are leading the way in such respects. Clearly, trustworthy and supportive relationships are key to ensuring a focus on the needs of the child.
Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for introducing a debate on this topic. Does he recognise that since the baby P case there has been an increase across both London and the country in the number of children being taken into care? In Haringey there has been a 40% increase. Does he recognise that we still have to do more to encourage parents and carers to contact social services before problems arise, and that there is growing concern about fear in relation to social workers? This hits the most deprived. Social work is not on the whole an area known to Britain’s middle classes.
Stephen Twigg
My right hon. Friend speaks very powerfully on this issue, and makes the case on why the relationships I am talking about are so important. He also, by implication, makes the case for something I shall come to a little later: the importance of enhancing the status of social work as a profession.
These relationships should, of course, be challenging. Hackney has developed approaches whereby mistakes by people working in the services can be openly acknowledged and addressed without fear of reprisal. That is fostering a culture that should ensure systematic learning, including learning from mistakes. The role of local safeguarding children boards in this process has been invaluable. The boards were originally established by the Children Act 2004, and they bring the key partners together in one place to focus on safeguarding. There is significant variation in the quality and effectiveness of these boards, of course, but I hope the work that is now being done to ensure lessons are learned between them, such as through networks of board chairs, will go some way towards addressing that. However, there is concern that in the context of reduced regulation, the Government must remain vigilant to make sure that that learning process moves forward.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Does my hon. Friend, who is getting to the heart of the matter, share my concern? When I chaired the Select Committee, the inquiries that we did on this subject showed time and time again that people did not learn from their mistakes and that the core management and training were at the heart of all the problems.
Stephen Twigg
That is absolutely right, and I shall come on to one or two of those themes. As a principle, that makes sense, and not only in social work—there are similar lessons in other areas of public service.
As well as integrated services, I want to emphasise the importance of leadership. Professor Munro has said that local authorities should protect the role of director of children’s services and the lead member for children’s services, as established in the 2004 legislation. There is evidence from some authorities of those roles being combined with other functions, typically adult social care responsibilities. Professor Munro made it clear that she opposed that, and I urge the Minister to respond to her concerns.
If the Government are to meet their aim of improving professional expertise and flexibility, there is a need, as I have said, to improve the status of the social work profession. The British Association of Social Workers has warned that the proposals set out yesterday do not address sufficiently social workers’ concerns about issues to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) referred—unmanageable case loads, stress, plummeting morale and cuts to administrative support staff. We need to ensure that there is sufficient flexibility and professional expertise in the system, including on the important issue of neglect. Given that extreme, high-profile cases have, understandably, been well publicised, occasionally there is a tendency for the system to, as it were, neglect neglect. Professor Munro has said that the processes are
“better designed to deal with an urgent concern about an incident of physical or sexual abuse, so neglect, which is about a chronic pattern of parenting, does not come up as a serious case.”
Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)
My hon. Friend will be aware that the Select Committee on Education is carrying out a detailed inquiry on child protection. Although many issues have emerged—and the report has yet to be drafted—there is clear concern about neglect, the inconsistent thresholds across the country for services to families, and the fact that in cases where older children are clearly at risk they do not necessarily get access to the services that they need. Those are three areas of serious concern for the Select Committee.
Stephen Twigg
I know that my hon. Friend raised those matters directly with the Minister when he gave evidence to the Select Committee yesterday. I wish to put on record our appreciation of the detailed work that she and other members of the Select Committee have done on this important subject. I am sure that all Members look forward to that report, including its recommendations.
Services such as ChildLine have done an immense job in identifying the problems facing children and young people, but the increasing work load for its staff—similar to the increasing work load for social workers and council staff—and the fact that the processes for dealing with referrals are often bureaucratic, is something that the Government should address.
On early intervention, Labour supports the Munro recommendation that a statutory duty should be introduced on local authorities and relevant agencies to secure the provision of early help. Early intervention is vital in the prevention and detection of abuse. These services need to be expanded, but are under a great deal of pressure, not least from spending cuts. I wish to put on the record my thanks to my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) and my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) for the excellent work they have done on this very important area of early intervention. They have outlined the importance of early work in identifying challenges and managing to tackle them at an appropriate stage.
Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)
On that point about early intervention, the Government have marked out a route whereby they want to see special treatment for 120,000 families who meet five of their seven criteria, but the fact that they meet five of those negative criteria almost automatically suggests to me that they are past the point of early intervention.
Stephen Twigg
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. He is taking us into an important territory that merits consideration in a further debate in the House, because those are big challenges we face.
Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab)
I thank my hon. Friend for his generous remarks and for the way he has couched the motion, which allows all Members across the House who are concerned about the issue to support what I hope Members on both Front Benches will say today. He talks about early intervention, and obviously there are catastrophic consequences for individuals when things are not done right and social and emotional capability is not given to babies, children and young people, but there are also tremendous economic consequences. Does he agree that if the Chancellor wants an enormous deficit reduction programme, early interventions that mean we do not have the costs of later interventions, which are not only expensive but often only partially successful, suggest that the way to go is to have a little, but early, rather than a lot, wastefully, later?
Stephen Twigg
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. He makes the point powerfully and better than I could, so I will simply say that I agree entirely.
There are positive signs that the system has been improving. Three years on from the baby Peter case, a review by the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service into care applications found that local authorities are intervening much more quickly and in a much more timely way. However, we are concerned that many essential early intervention services are being cut.
An important innovation has been the family drug and alcohol court, which provides intensive support to parents alongside a series of carrots and sticks to help them make progress. The close relationship between the court and families can serve to improve the speed of decision making and provide crucial therapeutic help at an early stage. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead said earlier, it is so important to work with parents to improve parenting skills. Parental support was a key element of Labour’s Sure Start programme, and the national evaluation of Sure Start found greatly improved outcomes for children in Sure Start areas, with more consistent discipline from parents, less chaos at home, parents making more use of local services and fewer children suffering in accidents.
There is a wealth of evidence on the relationship between domestic violence and child abuse, as the Minister acknowledged yesterday when he appeared before the Select Committee. We are concerned that we have seen a 31% cut in funding for refuges and specialist advice, which is surely undermining action to deal with domestic violence. On the subject of unintended consequences, I have a real concern, which I think has been expressed in the Select Committee’s deliberations, that in some cases the legitimate desire to protect a child from domestic violence can lead to the child being taken away from the non-violent parent, usually the mother. I would be grateful for any further information the Minister has on that.
Finally, let me say something about the importance of clarifying who is responsible within the Government for implementing the measures included in the new guidance. Professor Munro has said that she feels on occasion that momentum is not being maintained, and I think that, one year after her recommendation to appoint a chief social worker, and three years after that was first proposed, the Government need to move swiftly to appoint someone to that important new post. At the end of her one-year progress report, Professor Munro says that there should be continuing oversight of the whole system so that progress is maintained. The Government need to make it clear who will be responsible for that oversight, and I note that Professor Munro says that it should not be her, but a “fresh person”.
Mr Sheerman
Before my hon. Friend finishes his excellent and even-handed contribution, like those from Members across the parties, will he take it from many of us who have been in the field for a long time that there is a crisis not just of children at risk, but of childhood? There are sometimes unintended consequences, and Opposition Members have been complicit in that, given our attitude that there should be votes at 16—with no attention paid to its implications in terms of shortening childhood. That is an unintended consequence, but two parties in the House had the measure in their election manifestos—with no thought about the implications for the protection that childhood until 18 offers so many children.
Stephen Twigg
My hon. Friend tempts me, as a long-standing supporter of votes at 16, down a different road. I am sure that it was not a consideration in his making the intervention, but it is a debate for another time and place.
We also need to safeguard the safeguarding system. Studies have shown that the vast majority of care proceedings are appropriate and taken in the best interests of the child, but we need to ensure that there is a suitable mechanism for the occasions when that does not happen. Yesterday the Minister said that he was considering a form of “appeals process” to enable that, and I am sure that the House would be grateful if he could elaborate on his thinking.
I said at the beginning of this speech that child protection and safeguarding covers a range of issues and Departments, and, in addition to my warnings about unintended consequences and the well-being of children, I am concerned by the Government’s somewhat incoherent approach: on the one hand, Ministers like to lambast local authorities, yet on the other they are removing regulation and placing more power in the hands of local authority social work staff; on the one hand, Ministers say they want to reduce bureaucracy and red tape, but on the other they are introducing adoption scorecards for every local authority; and, on the one hand, Ministers say that early intervention is important, yet on the other they have not taken forward Professor Munro’s recommended statutory duty to do “early work” on child protection.
The British Association of Social Workers has raised a series of concerns about the state of the profession, particularly case load and the pressures on administration. In a survey that we conducted, more than 80% of the directors of children’s services who responded said that cuts to other services would affect their ability to safeguard children, and in a survey by the BASW 90% of social workers expressed concern that lives “could be at risk” as a consequence of cuts to services. The Government need to explain how they will address those challenges.
Ian Mearns
At a previous session of the Education Committee, when the Secretary of State was in attendance, I asked him whether he thought that it was a good idea for his Department—he being the Secretary of State for Education and children—to undertake an impact assessment of the Government’s proposed benefit changes on the welfare of children and their educational prospects. He subsequently said that he did not think that it was his responsibility, and he was doubtful about the veracity of such assessments anyway. Is that a surprise to my hon. Friend?
Stephen Twigg
It is not, and in my concluding remarks I shall say something about the Department for Education’s broader responsibilities for the well-being of children.
The Government have to explain how they will address the challenges that I have set, and there needs to be a robust training and continuing professional development framework not only for social workers, but for other staff in the relevant agencies, especially those in the health sector. It is crucial that we have robust supervision of social work practice by experienced senior staff and consultants who are accountable for the exercise of professional judgment. We know that the lack of good supervision was a significant issue in the baby Peter case.
Mr Timpson
If all those in the agencies that are involved in protecting and safeguarding vulnerable children are to be able to do so with the best possible judgments that they can make as professionals, they need to learn from mistakes that have been made in the past. We have heard about the horrendous cases of baby P and others, which have led to a number of serious case reviews. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that in order to make sure that we shine a light on the mistakes that were made in those particularly appalling cases and learn those lessons from the past, it is important that we have full publication of serious case reviews, albeit anonymised in the appropriate places?
Stephen Twigg
I am going to tread carefully on that issue. I am being advised to say yes by my esteemed colleague in the shadow team, my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy), but I recognise that that would be a change from the position that my predecessor took. I will undertake to look at it and get back to the hon. Gentleman.
Let me finish by saying something about the Government’s broader policy with regard to children and families. When the Secretary of State took over two years ago, he renamed the Department, removing the words “Children” and “Families”. I am a passionate advocate of innovation, rigour and high standards in our schools and colleagues.
Stephen Twigg
I apologise to the hon. Lady, but I am going to finish because I have spoken for quite a long time.
There is no contradiction between high standards and promoting the well-being of children; indeed, the two can and should go hand in hand. That was the core ethos of Every Child Matters, yet this Government have moved away from that. An internal DFE memo in 2010 said that reference to the five Every Child Matters outcomes was now forbidden and that the rather nebulous concept, “Help children achieve more”, was to replace it. Achievement is important, but so too is the broader well-being of children and young people. I urge the Government to think again on this. The principles of Every Child Matters are as relevant and powerful in 2012 as they were in 2004. Indeed, they are the principles that lie at the heart of this very important debate. It is a debate that enables the House to consider the Government’s proposals, gives Members in all parts of the House an opportunity to raise questions and concerns on behalf of our constituents, and, above all, should send out a clear, cross-party message that Parliament is determined to do all that we can to safeguard and promote the welfare of all children.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Tim Loughton)
Let me first say what a contrast to the previous debate this has been—calm and measured, and about important things that are affecting our constituents and vulnerable children around the country but do not get the airing that they should.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) on using an opportunity such as this, as I always did in opposition, to try to flag up these really important issues, which are not terribly fashionable in the press or among some of our colleagues but are absolutely crucial to many of our most vulnerable citizens. It is absolutely right that we should do that. The hon. Gentleman raised, in a very measured way, a lot of important matters, most of which I covered in my two-hour grilling in front of the Education Select Committee yesterday, and many of which I will cover in my comments today. Let me pick up just a few of his points. I do not want to speak at length, because other people want to contribute to the debate and that is very important.
I very much appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s comments about Eileen Monro’s report, which was excellent. She had the time and space to come up with some very well-considered proposals instead of giving a knee-jerk reaction to the latest tragedy that had happened. Her report was universally well received. It is a great joy to me to be able to put into practice everything that she recommended. Some of the recommendations are a bit more problematic than others, and with some, just as she took time to consider them, we will take time to come up with the precise nature of the solutions.
The hon. Gentleman referred to the chief social worker. Before this debate, the Minister of State, Department of Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), and I interviewed the four short-listed candidates; in fact, I gather that they interviewed us. There have been some very high-calibre candidates and we hope to be able to appoint that person shortly. I want them working alongside me and the Health Department as soon as possible. That key recommendation from Monro will make a big difference.
The hon. Gentleman also mentioned the family drug and alcohol court, which Nick Crichton runs. I have sat in it on many occasions. It is fantastic and a really smart way of dealing with very problematic cases. I want to see more of that rolled out. My own authority is looking at a joint venture with Brighton in east Sussex to see whether we can bring it to our part of the country, and there are other examples.
The hon. Gentleman hit the nail on the head when he praised Munro for wanting a child-centred system. The review was entitled, “The Child’s Journey”. We are all here not to make sure that the system works better or that processes are followed more efficiently, but to make sure that the qualitative outcomes—the impact that the system is having on children who need to be helped, safeguarded and put in a safe place—are improved. We often forgot that in the past, which has been one of the weaknesses.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned training. One of my continuous pushes is on continuous professional development, which he mentioned as well. It is crucial, which is why we put £80 million into social work reform in 2011-12, and why we have some good new social workers coming forward from other walks of life, as well as through training in our universities. We put £23 million into the local social work improvement fund in 2010-11 to support improvement on the front line. We have 3,700 newly qualified or first or second-year social workers who have joined the professional development programme. There are 400 extremely high-calibre people. I have met many of them. I am handing out awards to many of them from the Step Up to Social Work programme.
There is a great deal going on. Safeguarding children is not a partisan issue, but something that we all want to achieve, so I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s acknowledgement that a real momentum is building in efforts to make our children safer—although never completely safe. It is unrealistic, as Professor Munro pointed out, to suggest that we can remove risk and make every child absolutely safe. It would be complacent to think so. Our job in government and the job of those in opposition working with all the professionals around the country is to make children as safe as we possibly can.
Mr Sheerman
The Minister knows of my interest in the subject and I do not want to upset the apple cart or the bipartisan nature of the debate, but this is not the first such debate that the Secretary of State has not attended. There is a crisis facing children. All the evidence that we have received over the past months suggests that many vulnerable children are in a dreadful situation in our country. We need the leadership of the Secretary of State, to show that he is interested in children’s issues as well as in broader schools and education issues.
Tim Loughton
The Secretary of State is hugely engaged in the issue. I have been around the block a little longer than he has. Having been shadow Minister with responsibility for children, having dealt with safeguarding since 2003 and having been appointed to this position, I perhaps have a little more experience of the subject. When the current Secretary of State took up his position as shadow Secretary of State, his interest and his knowledge of serious case reviews on some safeguarding issues was extraordinary. He has driven the programme and enabled me and others to carry forward the proposals from Munro and others in the way we have. I remind the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) that the very first review that was established in the Department for Education under the new Secretary of State was the Munro review on child safeguarding. It was nothing to do with schools or education; it was on child safeguarding. That speaks volumes.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
That is good to hear, but when both the Minister and his hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) said that this debate was much more important than the previous one, is it not fair to point out that the Secretary of State chose to attend the beginning of the previous debate, but not to attend this debate?
Tim Loughton
I am sorry that we seem to be descending into the village frippery of the last debate. This debate was announced yesterday. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State had to shift various engagements to attend the House earlier and is not able to attend this debate. He trusts me and my ministerial colleagues to speak about this issue from the Dispatch Box. He follows these issues very closely. The fact that he has put the resources of the Department into ensuring that we have safeguarding improvements that are working is the test of the commitment of this Government, this Secretary of State and this ministerial team to the subject in hand.
Let us get back to the important business of saying what we have done and responding to the points that have been made. I welcome this opportunity to debate safeguarding children. It is appropriate that we should have this debate now because, as the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby mentioned, only yesterday we launched a consultation on revised statutory guidance, as part of our wider proposals to reform radically the child protection system in England. It is radical reform, and it is also about changing mindsets.
Before I remind hon. Members of the action that the Government have taken to keep vulnerable children safe, I want to pay tribute, as I am sure we all do, to the many thousands of professionals, social workers and others around the country who work hard to do just that, for which they receive little recognition and praise in the media or among our constituents. I often refer to social workers as the fourth emergency service. That is not an overestimation. Our reforms are designed to help those professionals to get on with their jobs better and to keep vulnerable children safer.
Although it is essential to tackle poor practice, I believe that we can and should do a great deal more to celebrate successes and to support those on the front line when they use their professional judgment to take tough decisions. I have met many hundreds of social workers over the past few years and spent a whole week in Stockport as a social worker a little while ago. They have to exercise the judgment of Solomon, often on a daily basis. It is not an exact science. They have to make difficult judgment calls, and we expect them to do so as part of their daily job.
As many hon. Members will know, the widely welcomed review completed by Eileen Munro last year laid the groundwork for a new approach to child protection. As I have said, it was the first review that we established. We are rapidly turning its recommendations into practice. Professor Munro found that the system had become overwhelmed by prescriptive bureaucracy and box-ticking, and that social workers were spending too much time on form-filling and not enough with families and vulnerable children. Endless procedures had been imposed on professionals to minimise risk, even though it is fanciful to believe that we can wish danger and insecurity away simply by ticking the right boxes. As a result, the professionalism and judgment of frontline staff had been undermined. The most important thing—the central focus on the needs of children—had been largely lost.
The answer that Professor Munro proposed was simple: we need to get back to basics of best practice. We need to allow social workers to spend more time with children and families, getting to know and understand them and responding to their particular circumstances and needs. As she put it, we need to focus
“not only on whether we are doing things right but whether we are doing the right thing.”
We accepted Eileen Munro’s findings and have been acting on them. We are beginning to see the fruits of the change of emphasis. We are seeing greater flexibility, with eight local authorities, including Knowsley and Islington, testing new approaches to the assessment of children’s needs over the past year. We have given them the freedom, through a special dispensation, to set their own local frameworks and to replace rigid time scales with professional judgments based on the needs of each child.
The feedback from the trials has been encouraging. Social workers are telling us that greater flexibility leads to more quality time with children and families, and better assessments, particularly for families with the most complex needs. Many also feel an enhanced sense of ownership over their work. We are, I hope, restoring confidence to the social work profession, which had taken such a knock.
Local authorities are telling us that with greater freedom comes greater responsibility. They have been reporting back to us about the need to monitor cases robustly to prevent drift. We are seeing a greater practical emphasis on multi-agency working and a drive towards transparency, which is essential in improving services and strengthening public confidence in the work that they do. We are seeing a stronger focus on supervision, with social workers having more time with their managers to discuss complex cases.
I am also encouraged to see an emerging greater emphasis on learning, another key point that was mentioned by the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby. Increasingly, the sector is taking the lead in sharing lessons from good practice and from when things go wrong. We can learn from mistakes only if we understand how and why they happened, hence our policy on publishing serious case reviews, which I am delighted to hear the Opposition have now come around to. We are also considering how we can improve serious case reviews to make them more effective tools for learning lessons that are widely shared and that lead to action and sustainable improvements. That could not happen while only very limited executive summaries were in the public domain.
Yesterday, as the hon. Gentleman mentioned, we announced a further important step in our overhaul of the child protection system in England. It is a measure at the heart of the Munro recommendations: the revised “working together” strategy. That new statutory guidance for safeguarding children will help create a new culture of trust among health professionals, teachers, early years professionals, youth workers, police and social workers.
We have published three draft documents for consultation—and it will indeed be a consultation. Some of the points made by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, as well as others that the hon. Gentleman raised, absolutely need to be fed into that consultation. That was why we did not just plough ahead, much though Eileen Munro was urging us to do so. We want to get things right, just as she got her recommendations right. We want to ensure that we put them into practice in the right way so that they work properly.
Our three draft documents will replace more 700 pages of detailed instructions with 68 pages of short, precise guidance and checklists. They will be punchy but clear and give professionals space in which to exercise their professional judgment. The revised guidance proposes giving local areas more freedom to organise their services in a way that suits local needs. It will allow more face-to-face time with children and families, which is crucial, and provide a clear framework within which professionals must operate.
The first document, “Working Together to Safeguard Children”, clearly states the law so that all organisations know what they and others must do to protect children. It does not tell GPs and other health professionals, teachers, police and social workers exactly how to do their job, but it provides a checklist setting out their duties and what is expected of them. It also sets out how the role and impact of local safeguarding children boards can be strengthened. As the hon. Gentleman said, they are crucial to the reforms, and they play an absolutely vital role in holding local agencies to account and getting all the key players around the same table and talking the same language.
The second document is new guidance on undertaking assessments of children in need. Informed by evidence from the eight trial local authorities, it proposes replacing nationally prescribed timetables with a more flexible approach. That approach will be focused, as it should be, on the needs of each child. It will absolutely do what the motion asks for—it will put the child’s needs, rather than compliance with inflexible time scales and recording processes, at the centre of assessment.
The third document is new guidance on learning and improvement, to help all services learn the lessons from serious case reviews. It comes from our strong belief that serious case reviews need to be much more strongly focused on learning, rather than process, and that the reports must be published so that lessons can be shared nationally and locally. In those reviews, we need to get to the heart of what went wrong and what action at what point by which individual led to a decision being made that might have contributed to a tragedy.
The approach behind those three new documents has rightly been welcomed. Professor Munro has said:
“We are finally moving away from the defensive rule-bound culture that has been so problematic. I believe an urgent culture change in our child protection system is now underway.”
Anne Marie Carrie, the chief executive of Barnardo’s, has said:
“We support changing the emphasis within the system to enable professionals to take responsibility for safeguarding the welfare of the most vulnerable children.”
Ian Mearns
At the same time as doing the work that he is undertaking to do, has the Minister given any additional thought to updating the legal definition of neglect? I believe that next year is the 80th anniversary of that definition as it is currently enshrined in law.
Tim Loughton
We had this conversation yesterday in the Select Committee on Education, of course, and I said that in response to the Action for Children report we had examined closely whether there needed to be an update to the law, which goes back to the 1933 definition. We were strongly advised that we did not need to change the law, which the courts and children’s services are interpreting in a contemporary way. As I was speaking yesterday, we were putting on the website a neglect toolkit, designed with Action for Children and the university of Stirling. It includes some practical tools for detecting, intervening and dealing with cases of neglect. That is a much more practical way to achieve real results now.
Revising statutory guidance is clearly not the only thing we need to do—far from it. The consultation forms part of a much wider programme of reforms that includes Ofsted’s new inspection framework, which began in May 2012 and has a stronger focus on the quality of practice and the effectiveness of help provided to children. It is much more children-centred. From June 2013, the planned new joint inspections will make a further important difference by looking at the contribution of all local agencies to keeping children safe. We are reforming inspection so that it makes judgments about the things that really matter, and so that it looks at how agencies work together to safeguard children more from the perspective of the qualitative outcomes for the child.
Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that moving looked-after children from one local authority to another creates greater difficulty, namely ensuring that case notes are transferred and that the conversation between the different agencies is sustained? When children are moved, their longer-term safety is eroded because of the distance and lack of contact between the source local authority and the receiving one.
Tim Loughton
My hon. Friend knows exactly what I think about that—we have discussed it at length. She has become something of expert in this matter because it is an issue in her constituency, as it is in mine. As a result of her approaches and events in Rochdale and other alarming cases, we will announce shortly, as I told the Committee yesterday, the results of the additional work done by the Deputy Children’s Commissioner on how we ensure that children are placed out of area only when appropriate, and when they can be safely and appropriately looked after. That should happen at the moment, but it does not in practice. The sufficiency principle, which we have overhauled once, needs more work. I will be happy to make those announcements in detail within the next few weeks, because this is a serious matter.
I want to get to the end of this speech so that other hon. Members can contribute, so I am going to talk fast, as I often do. The motion calls for early intervention programmes
“to be promoted on the best available evidence”.
We know that the earlier help is given to vulnerable children and families, the more chance there is of turning lives around and protecting children from harm. We are therefore continuing to work with children’s services, police and the NHS to shift the focus on to earlier intervention and early help.
Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
Will my hon. Friend give way?
Tim Loughton
I was trying to get on, but I will be delighted to give way to my hon. Friend in a moment.
We know that continuing such work will help to tackle childhood neglect, which is the most common category of abuse under which children become the subject of child protection plans.
Andrea Leadsom
I am so grateful to my hon. Friend. I just want to be helpful. Does he agree that having more early prevention programmes—including, for example, psychotherapists to whom social workers could on-refer—would help to back-solve the problem of the overloading of social workers and health visitors? If we had such programmes, social workers and health visitors would have somebody who could deal with the problems, support them and enable them to release some of the burden of their case load.
Tim Loughton
I have known my hon. Friend for more than 30 years and she has never been anything but helpful. Her work on early prevention, which is germane to the Government’s work on neglect and early help, absolutely confirms that the sooner we can detect problems, such as detachment, deficiency and others—the work with troubled families is important in this respect—the more likely we are to step in at an appropriate time and in an appropriate manner to avoid such problems leading to greater harm to a child. She is absolutely right, as she knows, and as she knows I know.
Understanding families and the experiences of children within them can be complex and signs of what appears to be low-level neglect can be misleading. Yesterday, as I have said, we published materials commissioned from Action for Children and the University of Stirling to help on that.
We are already seeing some notable successes from earlier intervention. I again pay tribute to the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), who is no longer in the Chamber, for his work on that. For example, the integrated access team in Suffolk is taking and handling quickly cases that would previously have been dealt with by children’s social care, with a £7 million saving on top of better social outcomes for those children. Tower Hamlets is operating a multi-agency integrated pathway and support team to deliver early help, reducing by 50% the number of referrals to children’s social care. That is happening in practice, and we now want more of it around the country.
As the motion indicates, it is important that professionals know what early intervention works best. To support them in that, the Government have recently invited bids for the establishment of an early intervention foundation and we expect the foundation to operate independently of central Government to support the needs of local commissioners and to build a solid evidence base.
I referred at the start of my speech to the importance of a high quality social work work force. Building on the work of the social work taskforce established by the previous Administration, we have focused heavily on improving the capacity and capability of the social work profession. In 2011-12 we invested £80 million in a national programme of social work reform to improve skills for social workers and tackle high vacancy rates in child protection. Together, all those reforms will shift the child protection system from a culture of compliance to a culture in which children and families are at the centre and social workers and other key professionals spend less time in front of their computer screens and more time face to face with vulnerable families and children, which is what we all want to see.
The motion rightly refers to the importance of young people understanding the risks of abuse and sexual exploitation. Tackling child sexual exploitation is a major priority for the Government and it has been at the top of our agenda over the past 12 months. Back in May last year, I made a speech at a Barnardo’s event in which I highlighted the importance of its “Puppet on a string” report. I said then that sexual exploitation of children
“is happening here and it is happening now”
and I went on to say that
“I think it’s a much bigger problem than it may appear now on our radar.”
I fear I was only too right and that we are seeing only the tip of the iceberg.
For far too long, the issue was something of a taboo in this country. It was little spoken about, little appreciated and little acknowledged or dealt with. Few local authorities had much idea about how prevalent child sexual exploitation was in their areas and, as a result, there was a real and tragic failure to grasp the scale of the problem. The high profile verdicts in the recent Rochdale case and others show that the situation is changing. The country is at last waking up to the fact that child sexual exploitation is a real problem in this country, but although the issue has been extensively discussed and debated in the media, there is still a good deal of misunderstanding about it.
Much of the coverage of the case in Rochdale focused on the fact that the perpetrators were British Asian men and the victims white teenage girls. We must not shy away from difficult issues about culture—I have said that on many occasions—and the Rochdale case does raise very troubling questions about the attitude of the perpetrators, all but one of whom were from Pakistani backgrounds, towards white girls, but it would be mistaken, and dangerous, to assume that that is the form that child sexual exploitation generally takes. We know that perpetrators of that appalling crime and their victims can be found in all backgrounds, in all parts of the country and in all social and ethnic sets. As Sue Berelowitz, the Deputy Children’s Commissioner, told the Select Committee on Home Affairs yesterday, this is not just a crime that takes place in northern metropolitan boroughs. She quoted a police officer from a
“lovely, leafy, rural part of the country”
who told her that
“there isn’t a town, village or hamlet in which children are not being sexually exploited”.
We owe a debt of gratitude to several organisations and individuals for putting the issue on the map, such as Safe and Sound Derby and, in particular, Sheila Taylor, to whom I pay tribute. Barnardo’s also did an enormous amount to raise awareness through its excellent report and its continuing “Cut them free” campaign. The Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre carried out a major assessment last year and reported practitioners telling it
“if you lift the stone, you’ll find it”.
There are many others, including many local projects and voluntary organisations, with whom my Department continues to work closely. We acted, I brought together all the major players and in November of last year we produced the tackling child sexual exploitation action plan. That is one of the pieces of work in my Department of which I am most proud, and it is beginning to have an effect. It is intended to lift the lid on the true nature and extent of this crime and to set out practical responses to it, and as a result many practical measures are already coming into force, although we need many more to take effect.
We identified four key stages where we needed better intervention. We need better awareness among children and their parents. We need better multi-agency action to intervene so that we can help children and families who are caught up in sexual exploitation. Once they have been rescued from it, we need to help them get their lives back on track. Finally, we must secure robust prosecutions and improve court processes to ensure support for victims and their families, including ensuring that we do not retraumatise teenage girls and other victims, who have to go through the whole episode in court in front of a phalanx of defence barristers. That is why the Attorney-General’s influence and involvement are really important. We must and can do better and shortly we will publish a progress report on how a range of Government Departments and national and local organisations are implementing the action plan.
Hon. Members will also be aware that last month the Secretary of State asked the Deputy Children’s Commissioner to provide him with an accelerated report from her office’s inquiry into child sexual exploitation in gangs and groups. Although it is clear that most children who are sexually exploited are not in care, we know that children who are in care are disproportionately represented in the numbers of victims of this crime. The Secretary of State asked particularly for recommendations on how to keep children in care homes safe from this abuse. We have just received that accelerated report, and we will publish it within a matter of weeks alongside the updated progress report, into which some of the findings from Sue Berelowitz’s report will be factored and, as a result, some urgent streams of work will emerge.
We are already taking action on children missing from care, and it is clear that the figures the police and my Department publish are not consistent. That is simply not acceptable. We are now working with the police and local authorities to bring a more consistent approach to figures collected nationally and locally. We need to know the extent of the problem so we can challenge poorly performing local authorities and come up with the right solutions.
I am particularly grateful for the work the hon. Member for Stockport (Ann Coffey) is carrying out through the all-party parliamentary group inquiry into children missing from care. I look forward to receiving its report next week and will consider its recommendations very closely. I have promised that it will inform the new guidance we are looking to publish in that area.
Of course, safeguarding children in care is only one aspect of our wider reform programme to transform the care system and improve outcomes for the most vulnerable children. Key is ensuring placement stability and good parenting—as we have heard from hon. Members today—whether through adoption, foster care or children’s homes. We also want to improve the support given to care leavers, another group vulnerable to sexual exploitation. We must ensure that children who leave care live in good accommodation and are well supported.
The reference in the motion to multi-agency working has a particular relevance in relation to tackling child sexual exploitation. Local safeguarding children boards have an absolutely central role in overseeing much of the work set out in our action plan. There is growing evidence that LSCBs and local authorities are getting a better picture of child sexual exploitation in their areas and taking steps to address it. But it is clear that some are still not giving this issue the priority it requires. They need to do so without further delay.
There is one final area that I want to mention in particular. Improving the safety of children who use the internet is an urgent priority, including reducing the risk of harm through contact with strangers and the viewing of harmful content. The hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby mentioned a particularly horrific site that was raised yesterday. The Government are working, through the UK Council for Child Internet Safety or UKCCIS, which I chair jointly with a Home Office Minister, to help to keep children and young people safer online. The council is focused on practical action, both by individual members, and collectively.
We have made real progress across a number of areas. The four major internet service providers have signed a code of practice that will see by October 2012 all new broadband customers presented with an unavoidable choice of whether to activate parental controls. Major retailers and manufacturers of internet-enabled devices such as mobile phones, laptops and internet-enabled TVs are developing solutions to increase the availability and awareness of parental controls at point of sale. UKCCIS has also published advice and guidance for internet companies to use so that parents get consistent information about keeping their children safe on the internet.
In conclusion—
Mrs Chapman
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I hesitated to intervene, given the speed at which he was going, but I did not want to miss the chance to raise with him a very real concern for people in Darlington about registered sex offenders. At the moment, offenders are not required to register their online identities as a matter of course. Sexual offences prevention orders are used to do this job, but it is not a requirement as a matter of course. When people have a known history of child abuse and deliberate grooming, it is very important that they are required to register their online identities as a matter of course.
Tim Loughton
The hon. Lady makes a very important point. Rather than go into detail now and take more time from Back Benchers, I would be happy to look into it if she would like to have a conversation with me and send me some details.
This is a huge, complex but deeply important subject and one that must remain a key priority for the Government and the Department in particular. The documents we published yesterday are intended to help create the new culture that we are determined to see. It is a culture that is not overly focused on compliance and dependency on central prescription and guidance; in which front-line professionals who work to keep children safe from harm no longer have their judgment stifled by what has all too often been pointless—albeit well intentioned—bureaucracy, made up of unnecessary rules and targets; and which has the needs and well-being of the child at its centre. It is apparent from the motion that the Government and the Opposition share the same goals in relation to the safeguarding of children, and I believe that the important reforms I have outlined will be welcomed by hon. Members on both sides of the House. I congratulate again the shadow Secretary of State on bringing this important subject before a slightly reduced audience in the Chamber today, because it is really important to a much bigger audience outside the House.
Mr Speaker
Order. In view of the level of interest, I have had to impose an eight-minute limit on Back-Bench contributions, with immediate effect, and although it is not obligatory not to take interventions, some self-denial over the number and length of interventions would help us to achieve our objective of getting everybody in.
Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con)
Thank you for calling me, Mr Speaker, to speak in this extremely important and timely debate on safeguarding children. I, too, welcome the motion, which is wide-ranging and will enable Members from across the House with different expertise and experience to contribute to what we all wish to do—protect children. I also welcome the timely statutory guidance that the Minister set out yesterday for bringing together the threads of the Government’s work on child protection. I must also declare an interest, having had 12 years’ experience as a family law barrister specialising in child protection, which although not making me an expert, has given me an insight into the work of child protection professionals.
Let us consider why the Government are prioritising child protection. A couple of startling statistics speak for themselves. Last year, 382,400 children-in-need requests were recorded and more than 600,000 referrals were made to social workers. Those are huge numbers that we all must reflect on. I know that all Members will be working with families and social work professionals, through their constituency casework, in trying to combat the problem of damaged children.
I want to cover early intervention, on which Members have already commented, the sexual exploitation of children, and the need to inform young people of the risks and to empower child protection professionals to provide the necessary support to vulnerable families. It is difficult to go much further, however, without mentioning the report by Professor Eileen Munro. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) and my hon. Friend the Minister for covering the report in detail—there is little to add to what they said. We all welcome the detail of this wide-ranging report, which I understand was the first to be commissioned under the coalition Government by the Department for Education. That sent out a clear signal that the Government intended to prioritise child protection and, in particular, to support the professionals.
I do not want to go through many more statistics, and certainly I do not want to emphasise the differences between the main political parties. So far, the debate has brought us together on this important issue, and I wish to continue with that. It is right, however, to give examples of why these changes are needed. In family courts over the years, I have represented hard-working social work teams, children themselves, through their guardians, and the parents, and too often I have seen social workers desperately trying to complete the paperwork necessary to facilitate a child’s move into care. At these crucial times, however, those social workers need the ability to exercise their professional judgment in weighing up the options for the children—possibly the division of a sibling group—and assessing the emergency situation.
Perhaps one of the most extreme examples of where a court has to consider a child’s future is the grave situation where there is a risk of harm right from birth. Such cases are extremely troubling and distressing for everyone concerned. They involve not just questions of logistics, but the exercise of professional judgment on the part of the social work team about how to plan and facilitate the removal of the child from birth, if that is required. Such cases require the ultimate exercise of judgment by professionals, at a time when they do not need to be worrying about the paperwork that goes alongside such decisions. I hope that the reforms will go a long way to change that.
Both Front Benchers raised concerns about child neglect. In my experience, the cases involving neglect are often the hardest to read—that is, to determine the chronology and the facts. That is probably because complex cases of sexual abuse are so far removed from the experience of most people in this country that they are difficult to relate to. However, unclean clothes, not being washed, a lack of love and care in the home, feelings of hunger—something I always try to avoid—and physical neglect are concepts that, on some level, we can perhaps all relate to, and we all know what they must be like for a young child with no ability whatever to protect themselves. The emphasis on child neglect and the need to empower professionals to sustain change within homes—not just to make referrals, but to keep supporting families—is extremely important. Tackling neglect is also about encouraging all adults across society and about not being frightened to make referrals. All of us can do more on this issue. I know that social work teams would rather have 10 calls about a family when there are concerns about neglect than have no calls at all.
That brings me to another aspect of this debate: the need for a multi-agency approach, which is also highlighted in the motion. In my experience, improvements have already been made, following the baby Peter Connelly case, to address the need to bring multi-agency work together at the earliest stage. However, we now need to look at sharing paperwork and information. Is there anything more we can do to make the system effective for the longer term? Neglect is also related to the need for early intervention, which has also been raised this afternoon. It is an issue that I have mentioned in the House on a number of occasions. We are grateful for our experience of addressing the issue and for the reports that hon. Members have prepared on it.
I see that time is against me. There is more that I wanted to say, but to conclude, I see genuine momentum in the safeguarding of children. We now have an evidence-based approach supporting the social work profession and the toolkit to move things forward, so that we can assist the professionals and parents in the community through early intervention. Ultimately, that will protect the children who need the help which all of us in this place are concerned about.
Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)
Let me start by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg), the shadow Secretary of State for Education, on initiating this debate. It is truly timely, not least because of the Rochdale grooming case. Indeed, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that, following that case, the public would expect this issue to be discussed on the Floor of the House, so it is right and proper that we should be having this debate.
I have to confess that this is not an issue on which I am an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but it is fair to say that in the last few months I have learned much about it. I want to concentrate on the Rochdale grooming case, how these horrific crimes came about, what lessons can be learned and how we need to go about learning them. It is right and proper that the starting point for any discussion on this type of issue should be the victims. Let us be clear: the victims in this case—these vulnerable girls—went to hell and back, in terms of what they experienced at the hands of their abusers and the court case that they had to go through. They were passed around the perpetrators and repeatedly raped. They were continually abused and treated absolutely appallingly.
It is interesting that, after the trial, professionals involved in the care of children were saying that the girls were from chaotic families, as though that explained why they had not been cared for. I accept that the parents of those children must take some responsibility, but the local authorities involved were those children’s guardians, and they failed to guard them. The perpetrators sometimes referred to the girls as prostitutes, and it was interesting that some of the social services staff referred to them in the same way. Those girls did not stand a chance.
Three weeks ago, two health workers who had been heavily involved in the case came to see me at my constituency office to describe their experience. They said that social services managers believed that the girls had been making life choices, which is why they were seen as prostitutes. Some of the social services staff who were dealing with the girls clearly had low expectations of them. The health workers told me that although one of the girls—their client—had presented with multiple sexually transmitted infections, the council would not intervene or escalate her care. They also told me that one 13-year-old girl had asked to go into secure care to escape from the abuse. Social services responded that she was too disruptive, and that it would cost too much. Let us be clear: those health professionals were working with children who were pressing for greater intervention, more action and more intensive care, yet none of that was forthcoming. The abuse continued for years. Vulnerable girls got pregnant by their abusers, and lives continued to be ruined. That is the reality.
Yesterday, we started to hear the defence—not the defence of the perpetrators, but that of some of the agencies involved in the case. Rochdale council and Greater Manchester police gave evidence to the Home Affairs Committee. I pay tribute to the scrutiny role fulfilled by the Chairman and the members of the Committee. We heard council representatives saying that there needed to be a change in the law, because data-sharing had been a problem in the case. My right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael), a Committee member, pointed out that legislation in the late 1990s had enabled agencies to share all the data that needed to be shared in order to prevent a crime. In fact, such agencies are obliged to share information to prevent such crimes. Sharing data should not have been an issue. The health workers I met had made it clear that this was not about sharing data; it was about their concerns being ignored by social services. We do not need to change the law; rather, the council needs to change its culture.
During a conversation that I had with a senior officer two months ago, before the sentencing in the case, she described on-street grooming as a new phenomenon. It is no such thing. Senior officers also said that they had only just received guidance on this matter from central Government, as though they needed such guidance to intervene to stop those perpetrators abusing those girls, or to take more responsibility for them. The Select Committee also heard from the chief constable of Greater Manchester police. I want to put on the record that Greater Manchester police did an excellent job of prosecuting this grooming case. It should be noted that they have apologised for the errors they made in the attempted prosecution of 2008.
One of the chief constable’s defences for what happened—or did not happen—in 2008 was that he was concerned about these vulnerable girls going through the court system, as he thought it would be a harrowing experience. The problem with that argument is, first, that the girls were probably not consulted on whether they wanted to go through a court case; and, secondly, and more importantly, that they continued to be abused because they did not go to court. Which is worse: going through a court case or continuing to be abused?
The Crown Prosecution Service, too, clearly failed in 2008 and has apologised for it. It needs to be said that no thorough investigation took place, so we do not know who it was who took the decision not to prosecute and we do not know whether disciplinary action has been taken. This is a public body, and I believe that greater transparency needs to be applied to it.
A whole range of issues is at stake. Investigations by the local authority and by the local safeguarding children board are going on, but let me reassure the House and the public that any cover-up in this instance will not be accepted. I have been assured by the Minister and the Prime Minister that action will be taken to get to the bottom of this. I hope that that happens.
John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)
I must congratulate the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) on his very good speech, much of which needs to be listened to and understood. It is not that we do not have the right laws in place; it is that the professional judgments made by practitioners are often basically not common sense.
Let me declare a declaration of interest on account of my involvement in the Justice for Families campaign. What I tend to see are the over-interventions, where the state intervenes improperly.
Returning to the issues of Rochdale, I raised a number of years ago the situation of a children’s home in Birmingham, where the practitioners did not mind if the children were prostitutes but did mind if they made toast for each other—because there was a health and safety risk to making toast.
I have made the effort to get the statutory guidance. If the motion supported the statutory guidance, I would probably have to vote against it, because it goes no further in looking at the definition of what is a risk of significant harm. It is quite clear that certain practitioners do not believe that being a prostitute is a risk of significant harm. [Interruption.] That seems to be the case, and it is not necessarily a UK-only situation. A family currently living in Wimbledon had similar problems in New Zealand where an under-age relationship was encouraged by the practitioners in that country because they thought it was right. That was on the New Zealand media last week.
Ian Mearns
In the Rochdale case and others I have read about, the abuse perpetrated against young girls has been so systematic and has lasted over such a prolonged period that the girls themselves did not see themselves as victims. In that scenario, who is going to look after them? We must think deeply about the implications of that problem.
John Hemming
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that excellent intervention, but I shall not take any more because of the Speaker’s advice.
Let me explain one of my concerns about the Government’s complacency on this issue. We have the SSDA903 return, which tracks what happens to children as they leave care. A number of possible destinations are listed: for example, adopted; died; care taken by another local authority, and so forth. There are also those who leave care for an unknown reason. In America, this is tracked to find out who has run away. These are children who have been abducted and trafficked. Across the country, we find that 5,950 children left care for unknown and other reasons. Of those, 430 were aged one to four; 350 were aged five to nine; 630 were aged 10 to 15, and there were many more at the ages of 16, 17 and 18. I have the detailed figures for my local authority, if anyone wants to see them.
What is sad is the fact that the Minister has refused to consider trying to gain more detailed information so that we know what happens to these children. If I were losing 5,000 children here, not knowing what was happening to them—rather similar to the situation in Rochdale—I would not be feeling very happy as a corporate parent or as a parent in any form whatever. The failure is in not having proper systems of checks and balances on the judgment of practitioners who operate on a daily basis.
There are some excellent practitioners. I know of one social worker who was recently suspended because she would not change her view that a child should go back to its parents. The management tried to bully her into agreeing that the child should be adopted, but she would not do that, so she was suspended. We should be looking at what those managements are doing, and establishing whether it is valid. We know that much of the evidence is unreliable as a result of the excellent work of Professor Jane Ireland, which is the only proper independent work that has been done to assess the quality of evidence in the family courts.
I have here a letter from the Health Professions Council, which is refusing to investigate allegations about bad psychologists. Giving the reference FTP04616, the HPC says that it cannot “progress the concern” because of the current law. I think that it misunderstands the law: I think that the 2009 changes enable it to investigate allegations about rubbishy psychologists without the permission of a judge.
We have a problem with checks and balances, and with the failure of quality control in respect of evidence and the family courts. However, we also need to look at the wider issues of why children are taken into care. The failure of the statutory guidance to go beyond “risk of significant harm” implies that there is a real problem. The care system is very complex and involves very subtle judgments, but the Government come along wearing big boots and try to kick it in a particular direction.
Puerperal psychosis involves extreme baby blues or post-natal depression. When a mother has given birth and is depressed it can be dangerous for the child, who may need to be taken into care; but is that the sort of case that should be driven towards adoption, just because mum was depressed after giving birth? Such action is likely to make mum even more depressed. The Government’s policy is, “We need to speed it all up: we need rapid decisions.” The flaw in their approach is that there is none of the individual judgment on cases that is really needed. It is a very simplistic approach to what is a very complex system.
Domestic violence is another example. Angela Wileman is writing a book about what happened to her. She has been to Spain, Ireland and all over the place to avoid the UK care system, which was persecuting her in various ways. She has been in the newspapers plenty of times. She was a victim of domestic violence, on the basis of which the system wished to take one of her children from her, put that child in care and have it adopted—but only that child, because she had had the other child abroad.
Ms Toni McLeod, who lives with her family in Durham, is thinking of going to Ireland because she is pregnant. It is a difficult situation. She was a supporter of the English Defence League. I hate the EDL. Three of my children are mixed-race, and I protest against the EDL. Toni McLeod says that she is not racially prejudiced, but that children were taken from her partly because of her membership of the EDL. It was
“felt that conversations and opinions may be expressed in the children’s presence.”
That is a “thought police” approach to care. The system intervened because of what Toni McLeod might say in front of her children. She says that she has many friends who are Muslims and Sikhs, and that she disowns the EDL nowadays, but whether that is true or not, we should ask whether it is appropriate for the state to remove a child because children may be radicalised by a parent. Is that an appropriate use of the phrase “risk of significant harm”? That brings us back to the statutory guidance, which makes no effort whatsoever to give any indication of what is meant by the phrase.
One of the biggest problems in relation to the accountability of the family court and the care system is insufficient proper, academic access to the details of the proceedings. We do not know whether we are achieving something for the children or not. An excellent report by Ruth Gilbert, published in The Lancet late last year, raised major questions about whether we are getting anywhere at all with the overall system. We have some extremely serious problems, and in my view the interventions are often damaging.
I work with a number of care leavers. It is important to remember that care leavers remain care leavers even when they are in their forties and fifties. As people get older, they gain the confidence that enables them to speak out about what happened to them when they were younger, whereas many people in their late teens and early twenties do not have enough confidence to explain where the real problems lay. We need to be very careful. Lucy Allan may be going to speak to the Minister about her experience. She was a Conservative councillor. The same psychologist wrote two different reports about her, which was complete nonsense, of course. If a specialist of some kind writes two completely contradictory reports about the same person, what intellectual value does any of that information have?
Although I have a lot more to say on this subject, I only have 54 seconds left, so let me just put on the record that the Education Committee has done an excellent job in listening to people on different sides of the argument. The family justice review panel included only people who operated the system. It therefore did not properly consider the views of those who are affected by the system. The Home Affairs Committee will kick off an inquiry that I hope will be run on a far better basis. The Munro report is quite good, but we need to look more rationally at the detailed ways in which things are operated and make sure steps are taken that actually benefit the children in the long term, not just hit Government targets.
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
First, I thank the Labour Front-Bench team and the Leader of the Opposition for choosing this subject for an Opposition day debate. I agree with everything the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg), has said and with his recommendations. I also welcome the Minister’s comments.
I shall focus on one particular type of abuse: the sexual abuse and exploitation of children and young persons. We all know that happens, but many people do not appreciate how often it happens, the numerous ways in which it happens and how many victims there are throughout the country. There are thousands of victims. That is not difficult for people like me to realise, because before entering Parliament I was a barrister practising the criminal law. I prosecuted and defended people, and I represented parents whose children were being taken into local authority care. Therefore, I agree with much of what the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) said about what happens in care cases and, sometimes, the attitude of Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service workers, those appointed by the courts and all the establishment involved. There are always conflicts and sometimes local authorities do not put the best interests of the children first. They get too bogged down in rules and procedures.
I was pleased to hear yesterday’s evidence to the Home Affairs Committee given by Sue Berelowitz, the Deputy Children’s Commissioner. She has conducted a two-year inquiry into the grooming and abuse of children. One of the first questions she was asked was about the Rochdale case. She was asked whether such cases were a particular issue for a particular community. Her answer was no, it was a question of a pattern of abuse. She then went on to explain that there are different patterns of abuse by different groups of people across the country. She mainly talked about men abusing young women, but there is also the issue of abuse of young boys, which we in society hardly ever talk about. That type of abuse is hardly ever weighed in the scales when we compare different types of abuse.
Such points are important to make in the context of the Rochdale case. We do not want people thinking, “It’s just one little issue involving one community, so we can forget about it.” Such cases have nothing to do with race or particular communities. The key point is the types of people who are vulnerable in any given circumstance. It is a question of who is available. If Asian or Afro-Caribbean girls had been available in Rochdale, they would have been just as likely to be abused. Sue Berelowitz also said:
“There isn’t a town, village or hamlet in which children are not being sexually exploited.”
She added:
“We should start from the assumption that children are being sexually exploited right the way across the country”,
including in
“urban, rural and metropolitan areas”.
Sue Berelowitz gave an example of something that is happening in London. She said that there are parts of London where girls as young as 11 are expected to perform oral sex on a line-up of boys for up to two hours. She said that is was
“common for girls to be lured via internet chatrooms to meet a friend, only to be met by a group of boys and gang-raped in the park.”
She said that another group would then take part in the rape of those children. She said:
“I wish I could say to you that such things are uncommon but I’m afraid that they are quite common.”
She went on to say that
“what is being done is so terrible that people need to lay aside their denial”,
or that there was a risk of victims being disbelieved. She said:
“Victims number in the thousands not the hundreds.”
She went on to talk about the role played by the internet in the exploitation of children and abuse of young people.
Yesterday, Peter Davies, chief executive of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre said in the Select Committee on Home Affairs that children are accessing the web at a far younger age. He said that he would score the public sector only five out of 10 on its ability to protect children from abuse. He claimed that, on average, one child in 20 was a victim of sexual abuse. From my personal knowledge of the cases with which I dealt for many years, that is a far more realistic statistic than people may think, as the problem of sexual abuse is rife.
We have discussed internet grooming, paedophiles going on the internet, street grooming and the trafficking of victims, although they tend to be adults, but we do not discuss sexual abuse in the home. People do not realise the extent of that type of abuse or that young boys are often victims of sexual abuse. Boys being boys, they do not come out and speak out about it and often do not want to discuss their emotions, either because they do not want to be accused of being cowards or of being weak. They may be ashamed or embarrassed. As a society, we talk about female victims, and do not often talk about male victims. I recently had a conversation with my chief superintendant at Bolton police station. I said, “Have the police done anything to educate or talk to chief officers throughout the country to urge them to look at the question of how to reach out to young male victims, talk to them and encourage them so that they know that it is okay for them to talk about their abuse?”
We have heard about some cases of abuse, and I have prosecuted people who have abused young boys, but there is a much bigger picture, so I urge the Minister—I am sure that there is joined-up working between different Departments—to see whether the police and other agencies can be asked to make a positive effort to engage with young males, ascertain their problems and let them know that they are recognised as victims and that they are just as vulnerable and need as much protection as young girls.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
A prominent issue in the news and media over the past few weeks, perhaps because of the number of cases that have come to court, is children’s access to pornography. That seems to have been going on for a period of time. Does the hon. Lady think that it is time for the Government to take action to prevent that access and provide encouragement for parents?
Yasmin Qureshi
I entirely agree, and I hope that the Minister has heard that. School teachers, head teachers, social services and the police and everyone else needs to be aware that this happens, and that it is a lot more common than we think.
I shall conclude with a case of sexual abuse in which the victim did not realise that what they were doing was wrong. Many years ago in Feltham a case of incest by a father on his daughter came to light, and it did so only when the father was working on his car in the front garden and the daughter, who was about 13, came out and said, “Do you want a quickie?” A neighbour who was entering his house at the time heard the comment and contacted social services, and as a result all the agencies got involved and the whole truth came out about how the girl had been violated by her father for many years, but she did not know that what had been happening was wrong and so was able to talk about it publicly. That shows the extent of the abuse that is taking place, so I really ask that much more attention is paid to the sexual abuse of children across all groups.
Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)
This issue is a matter of the most profound importance. From time to time it is jolted to the top of the media agenda in the most awful way, as happened with Victoria Climbié, Peter Connelly and the Rochdale case. Although it might top the headlines only periodically, its extent is vast and always with us. On the Select Committee’s recent visit to Doncaster, I was taken aback by the sheer physical scale of the call centre operation dealing with calls from the public and practitioners and data entry just for that local authority area and to hear about the huge number of households in the city that social workers call on regularly. We know that in the year to 2011 there were more than 600,000 referrals to children’s social services nationally and 49,000 child protection plans initiated. As for some of the other types of abuse, such as online abuse and child-on-child abuse, we can really only start to guess at their extent.
There have of course been positive developments, which it is important to acknowledge. A number of Members have mentioned what an encouraging sign it was that the first report to be commissioned after the change of Government was the Munro report, which contains a lot of useful material. The formation of the MASH teams—the multi-agency service hubs—is clearly a development that can hopefully deliver great benefits, but we must be careful not to identify a silver bullet and think that it will solve all problems.
I hope that the Government’s troubled families programme will also signal a further positive development in this area. People go on about the 120,000 families, but it is worth noting that, in fact, there are not 120,000 families who will receive additional help that is not available to others—the 120,000 figure is a statistical construct that comes from analysis done under the previous Government and the Cabinet Office report. The initiative is about encouraging local authorities to work together and having a lead person operating on behalf of each family to try to join up services.
The other thing I welcome is the motion and the way it unites both sides of the House. My only complaint, and a tiny one, is that with a little more notice we could have got more hon. Members here. I also want to pay tribute to social workers. Clearly, social work is not a job they do for the glamour, kudos or cash; it is a hugely difficult job, sometimes done in the most horrendous circumstances. Social workers should expect our constant support and acknowledgment for the difficult job they do. As Eileen Munro said, and as the Minister repeated today, their job is all about trying to predict the ability of a parent to bring up their child and to protect the child, and at the best of times that is an inexact science. I think that elevating the status of the profession in every way we can is vital, and that includes things such as the chief social worker and a properly founded college of social work.
There will always be a tension between trying to standardise approaches on the one hand and trying to devolve decision making on the other, and the pendulum will swing from one direction to the other from time to time. I think that most people would accept that it swung too far towards the template approach, so a reduction in the several hundred pages of guidance, which were well intentioned, to a much slimmer approach marks a further move towards trusting professional judgment. When the Minister appeared before the Select Committee—he called it a gruelling grilling, but in truth it was more of a walk in the park—he gave the example of what different GPs said they would do if a mother presented with a child who had bruises and signs of potential abuse. He said that the smartest and very best GPs said that they would phone the nursery school or some other professionals to ask if they had noticed something as well and, if so, they should proceed together. That is the kind of common-sense approach and professional judgment that we all want to see. One crucial issue is that there is somebody to report an incident to, and that one knows in all cases whom to report it to and one is confident that, as appropriate, it will be acted upon. That is why the issue of thresholds, which the hon. Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass) brought up earlier, is so important.
It is also important that members of the public know how to report such matters. I hate to use the word “brand” in this context, but trusted brands such as ChildLine and the NSPCC play a vital role. We heard from the head of CEOP the other day that there might be a plan to introduce a new phone number, 114, 116 or something, in order to report incidents and abuse, but it does not sound like the smartest move imaginable when there are already recognised, accepted and acknowledged channels through which people can report.
During the bulk of the time remaining to me, I want to discuss the abuse of young people by young people. I welcome the Government’s plans to extend the definition of domestic abuse to under-18s, because we really do not know the extent of these problems as they affect young people, so I also welcome the Home Affairs Committee’s focus on the area. We were all shocked to hear what the deputy children’s commissioner said the other day about the prevalence of violence and of sexual violence among young people in and out of gangs, and, as the hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) said earlier, hearing that 11-year-old girls are expected to perform sexual acts on a line-up of boys makes one sick to the stomach.
One relatively new issue is sexting—a word that, when I became a Member two years ago, I had not heard of. One might have thought that it was some sort of wordplay, but now we know that it has a terrible ability to do harm and is not yet taken seriously in many different areas. When we on the Education Committee asked the head of CEOP how such matters were reported to the police, how they dealt with them and how many cases they had heard of, it became apparent that, although he obviously takes it very seriously, in many places its prevalence is not yet fully appreciated or acted upon.
A dangerous relativism can sometimes creep into this subject, even among people who clearly care and are very knowledgeable about it, and in the case of sexting, for example, one occasionally hears somebody say, “Of course, sexting can be a part of growing up and an important part of sexual discovery.” Call me old-fashioned, but I just think that that is wrong. I think that 12-year-old, 13-year-old or 14-year-old girls being forced into, coerced into or voluntarily sending naked or semi-naked pictures of themselves around the internet or on mobile phones is just plain wrong. In society, in government and in schools we have to be unafraid to say that, because if we do not, we put young girls in particular in a very difficult position at a vulnerable time of their lives, when they might be under all sorts of pressure to do all sorts of things that they do not naturally want to do. I think we owe that to them.
Mr Speaker
Order. I am keen to accommodate colleagues, but the time limit will have to be reduced to six minutes, and I still cannot hold out any hope that all four will get in. If people wish to speak for less time, it is not an offence to do so.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
It is a real pleasure to follow the hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds), who as always speaks most perceptively and with great clarity.
It has been good to sit through the whole debate and to hear the strong cross-party consensus on tackling the issue of safeguarding children, an issue that we all know is of the utmost importance. I therefore congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg), the shadow Secretary of State, on bringing it to the House, and congratulate previous Secretaries of State and Ministers and, indeed, the current Secretary of State and Ministers on their leadership. The Under-Secretary of State for Education, the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), who led for the Government in this debate, has an excellent record on the issue and has shown real leadership in taking the baton forward, as it is his duty to do.
I would have to say, as a professional in education, that safeguarding is one of the most difficult issues that we have to face. In many ways, it is more difficult than the challenges of attendance, retention and achievement, because it is more subtle and difficult to be clear about. For many young people, school is a point of stability in their lives. Many young people have massive challenges in their private lives outside school, and school provides them with solidarity and shelter in a storm.
Professionals, be they in education, health, the justice system or social work, need to get the balance right, and that is a difficult challenge to meet. I recognise the genuine progress that I have seen in my professional life in moving matters forward in relation to safeguarding. My hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State was right to emphasise the importance of the five outcomes of Every Child Matters. That was a real step forward in dealing with this difficult agenda. We trivialise the focus on well-being at our peril. The Minister is nodding, and I am pleased that he recognises that it is important to capture that in moving things forward. In its focus on safeguarding after the baby Peter Connelly tragedy, Ofsted perhaps swung a little too far the other way, but it certainly made everybody sit up and think things through carefully and sharpened up everybody’s acts. It is important that the pendulum swings a little, but also that the fundamental centrality of purpose is not lost.
Mr Lammy
In that swinging of the pendulum, I wonder whether my hon. Friend recognises two things from his experience. First, there is concern among black and ethnic minority families that there are still not the relationships that are needed. We have seen across London an upsurge in black and ethnic minority families in the care system. Secondly, young people in care who reach the age of 18 can find themselves very vulnerable when they are suddenly bereft of any services and have to make decisions about their future.
Nic Dakin
My right hon. Friend makes a very important and cogent point from a position of great experience in this matter. I pay tribute to him for the work that he has done in this area.
I would like to emphasise the crucial importance of local safeguarding children boards and applaud the comments of the shadow Secretary of State and the Minister about that. Those boards have greatly helped to bring together professionals across disciplines and across cultures. Cultures are very different, and making them work together with a focus on the child is a big challenge. I applaud and pay tribute to all professionals working in this arena, particularly, in my experience, the social workers in North Lincolnshire, who have always astounded me with their professionalism and done a very good job on behalf of local people.
As the hon. Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) pointed out, this is a difficult world in which there are new challenges to do with e-safeguarding. My hon. Friends the Members for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) and for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) talked about the difficulties to do with child sexual exploitation. We need to get to grips with those difficulties and challenges. We do that best by working together, cross-party, in allowing the leadership baton to be moved on from one Administration to another, creating a unity that spreads down through the country to local children safeguarding boards. We must bring people together, focused on the child’s outcomes and continuing, all of us in this House and outside it, to work together to ensure that children are safeguarded as best they possibly can be as we move forward.
Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con)
I am delighted that there have been some fantastic contributions from both sides of the House on this incredibly important issue. As we have so little time, I will not attempt to emulate them. Instead, I shall turn the debate to an aspect that we have not discussed so far. We talk about a child-centred service, but what has been lacking from the debate is the view of the children themselves. In the brief time that I have, I shall share a couple of perspectives on their experiences of the care system from children whom we as members of the Select Committee met, and what we learned from that.
The first thing that the children said, which is borne out in the recommendations, is that having one simple single point of contact where they could go if things went wrong was invaluable. I repeat the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) that the NSPCC and ChildLine do an excellent job. They provide a brand that is widely recognised and if we are to do anything, our resources would be well spent supporting their increasing caseload and making sure that those resources are spread as widely as possible. It is not worth trying to reinvent the wheel when we have such a good wheel already in existence.
The second thing that emerged from our meetings with the children was that their complaints were often not listened to. They felt isolated from a world of adults. That is particularly concerning when we consider the circumstances under which those children would come forward to make complaints. Abuse is sophisticated and complex. It is a deep psychological issue. Legislation needs to recognise that victims of abuse are often made to feel by their abuser that it is their fault, that they deserve it, that someone is going to come and get them if they tell anyone in authority, or that it is perfectly normal. So when a child comes forward with a complaint against the adult world, that should be taken extremely seriously. Professionals need to recognise that.
On the point about being told that abuse is normal and becoming acclimatised to what is, in fact, unacceptable behaviour, there is a case to be made to infiltrate into young people’s learning environments simple objective facts about what is and what is not acceptable behaviour. Abuse takes place in the world of the subjective, where children, as well as partners in abusive domestic relationships, no longer know what is right and what is wrong.
Thirdly, we learned that key individuals can make a difference in lives, so the focus of the recommendations on the professionalism of social workers hit the nail on the head. A good professional can sometimes literally save lives. Fourthly, continuity matters. Often these children have been let down again and again, and trusted relationships have broken down. I very much welcome the Minister’s focus on more stable caring environments such as adoption and fostering. From the children’s perspective, that would make an enormous difference.
We should recognise that, in the continuous care cycle, the problem does not end the minute the victim is removed from the source of abuse. The horror of abuse is that it can result in a cycle of abuse, with the abused becoming abusers. The echoes of trauma and terror can reverberate a long way down the line. In our continuing care for victims, we need to look into the long term to make sure that that is recognised.
The recommendations and guidelines are massively helpful. The complexity of the issues that abuse and victimisation raise cannot be left to simplistic tick-boxing. Those issues should be the subject of sophisticated professional expertise and I am delighted that from across the House there is momentum to make that happen.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. There are two speakers left. If they could share the time available and perhaps take just three minutes each, it would help enormously and everybody would get in.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to speak in the debate. I want to emphasise the cross-party support by saluting the promotion of the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) from the Education Committee to the Opposition Front Bench. That is a signal that there is wide agreement on many issues today.
I shall make several brief points. First, Professor Munro is right to signal the need for a change of culture and for agencies to work together more effectively. That point was well made by the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk), who was in effect describing agency failure and lack of co-ordination between agencies. He was spot on. He was describing a tragic situation, but Professor Munro’s approach to cultural change and agencies working together is excellent.
Secondly, I salute the fact that the chief social worker is to be appointed. I want to underline the importance of agencies working together by welcoming the fact that both the Minister of State, Department of Health, the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), and the Minister present today were involved in the selection of that person. It is necessary for those Departments to work together.
That brings me to my third point, which is that it is critical to start thinking about young people in a continual line, from when they are born onwards. This is to do with the structure of the Department for Education. As I have said before, I think that it should be merged with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, because people aged 15, 16 and 17 are abused and can find it difficult to express themselves about it. I think that the Department for Education should be bigger and should encompass all those matters.
Last but not least, I want to refer briefly to the social work college. It is imperative that it is established. We have to get the training right. My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) was spot on in her description of the children whom the Education Committee met. I was horrified to discover that training is preventing proper relationship building between children and the people to whom they signal their complaints. We must get that right.
Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)
I will confine myself to making one point about this multifaceted topic.
Complimentary comments have rightly been made about social workers. For many social workers, it is not a question of whether there will be a difficult case when they go in each day, but of whether one of their many difficult cases will blow up overnight when they go home.
One of the safest places for young people, as we have heard, is school. That is not always the case, but particularly for those from dysfunctional homes, it is seen as a safe place to be. Although complimentary remarks have been made about social workers, we really need to listen to the concerns that educational social workers have. Local authority educational social workers regard their client, first and foremost, as being the child. I am concerned, as are they, about who the client will be as central budgets go down and are devolved out to schools. If the new academies and free schools, and even the maintained schools that are allocated central budgets, decide not to spend that money on educational social workers, they will be picking and choosing the children whom they have in their schools. Many of those schools think that the educational social worker should regard them as the client and not the child.
I am extremely concerned that we have not worked out the relationships between the Government and the new schools, and between the local education authority and the new schools. The Education Committee heard about that today. There is still a vital contribution to be made in supporting schools and monitoring schools, but also in challenging schools about their attendance policies. In particular, schools must be challenged if they are deciding whether or not to chase pupils who are not in school.
Recently, a mother came to my surgery whose young son had been out of school for 10 weeks. There had been a half-hearted attempt at a managed move and they were considering a transfer. If that child had been on course for five A* to C grades, he would have been in school. The truth is that the school was not too bothered about whether the child went in. An educational social worker would have been bothered. That is the big concern that has not been addressed since right at the beginning. It was mentioned when we considered the Academies Act 2010. Who is the client? First and foremost, it must be the child, not the school.
Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab)
This debate could not be more important, because it concerns those children who most need and deserve our support. Many of them are children for whom parental care has failed, and in some cases the state has also failed them. These children have no choice but to rely on us to protect them, which is one of the heaviest responsibilities placed on the Government. There is an urgency to the situation that marks it out further still. For a young child, just two months represents 1% of their childhood. If we get this wrong, that is time that they will never get back. Every moment counts.
Whether we succeed or fail for those children will depend almost entirely on the quality of relationships that they have with the people who are charged with protecting them. That is the central point that must be recognised and not get lost in the welcome reforms that the Government are pursuing.
We have heard about the pressure on front-line professionals, but while the spotlight in the Department often falls on education, authoritative voices such as the former Children’s Commissioner for England and the chair of the Association of Directors of Children’s Services have warned that the wider framework of support for children is being dismantled, with dangerous consequences for some of the children who can least afford to bear them.
Increasing overall resources is not an option, so Ministers must look carefully at their priorities. There are now more than twice as many staff employed in the Department’s free schools unit as in the safeguarding unit. Youth services, which were a lifeline for the most at-risk young people, are disappearing, while a national citizen service is being developed. That is an admirable scheme, but it is no replacement for ongoing support for the young people who need it most. For some of them, their youth worker is the consistent adult in their life, as the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) outlined so compellingly. They really matter to children among their other priorities.
I had the opportunity to work with the Under-Secretary of State for Education, the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), before I came to this place, and I have scrutinised his work over the past two years as a member of the Education Committee. I am absolutely certain that he is passionate about his job and the need to listen to children, and he is right that we need to move away from a defensive culture in social work practice, trust professionals to use their instincts and encourage and enable them to be more proactive. However, I would fail in my duty to children if I did not address the real concerns that exist about the strain on the relationships that lie at the heart of effective child protection.
The professionals who make a vital difference to children at risk—their social workers, who do an impossible job day in, day out—are now dealing with unmanageable case loads, as the Minister’s own adviser, Professor Eileen Munro, has warned. The hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) talked about the difficulties inherent in the task of social work, and he was absolutely right to do so, but do Ministers know that polling suggests that one in six social workers now have more than 40 cases? Speaking as someone who spent nearly a decade working with some of the most vulnerable children in contact with the child protection system, that figure is of real concern to me, as it is to many other people.
More than half of social workers believe that their case loads are unmanageable, and the children’s rights director tells me that children themselves are now starting to voice their concerns about social work case loads. Will the Minister of State, the hon. Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather), tell us urgently what she will do about that? If social work is the fourth emergency service, as the Under-Secretary said, greater flexibility on its own is not enough in the face of unprecedented demand.
The establishment of the social work college should help. It is based on the landmark recognition that relationships are everything in child protection, and that professional skills and judgment are worth their weight in gold and demand the same professional status in society as we accord doctors and other professionals. What progress has been made to resolve the disputes that have beset the foundation of the college?
Will the Minister of State respond to the concern that, one year on, there is still no chief social worker in post to stand up for the profession? I was grateful to the Under-Secretary for updating us on the fact that recruitment is currently under way, but can the Minister of State provide us with more details about how exactly the post will work and when somebody will begin the job?
I expect the Minister of State recognises why there has been such concern about delays in implementing the Munro review, and especially about the confusion over the impact that health reforms will have. There is a real danger that we will end up with more piecemeal reform, which is precisely the opposite of what is needed. Real strides forward were made in persuading agencies to work together to keep children safe after the tragic death of Victoria Climbié 12 years ago. This must not be the moment when it is allowed to unravel. Progress in child safeguarding is the last Government’s legacy, and many Labour Members can rightly be proud of it, but it can and should also be the current Government’s legacy. We will do everything we can to ensure that that is the case.
There is evidence that agencies are retreating into their core functions. I repeat the comment of my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) that in cutting out prescription, Ministers must be careful not to send front-line professionals whose daily work brings them into contact with children but is not restricted to them a dangerous signal that keeping children safe is not their responsibility.
Professionals need clarity, and it is our responsibility to provide it, so I invite the Minister to consider the impact of the shift of focus in the Department, which was formerly called the Department for Children, Schools and Families. The change of name that was not just symbolic; it was an important shift that provided results for children, which I have seen for myself. Its abandonment has left some children falling between Departments and teams, which too often focus on services rather than children. Ministers could never have intended this situation, which arose recently, but the Education Secretary learned from the Education Committee that another Department had started a trial that exposed children to ionising radiation against the wishes of the four Children’s Commissioners and the medical profession. He was not even aware of that, much less consulted.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) for his compelling speech, which showed what can happen when the system breaks down and goes wrong.
There is a real risk that we will have such a debate in a decade’s time in a context in which some children have fallen further behind and others are still at risk. A unique opportunity to reform the system will have been wasted. We can and must do better. In a decade, I would like to stand here—or preferably at the Government Dispatch Box—when no child is constrained by their background; when no child is left in abusive or neglected homes; when no child is ignored when they raise serious concerns; when no child believes that they cannot do better; and when no child is passed around from pillar to post around the care system, forced to recount their harrowing experiences to a succession of anonymous adults. In short, in 10 years’ time, no child’s life chances should be determined before they are born.
Members on both sides of the House share that vision, so I want to extend an offer to the Minister to build a shared consensus on children above politics, and to work together to create a comprehensive strategy to keep children safe—one that involves the care and child protection systems as a whole; one that gives front-line professionals the tools, clarity and skills they need, and the freedom to exercise them; and one that, above all, recognises that we are operating in a new reality, in which agencies are under pressure. If we are not careful, the sense of shared responsibility that has been built up over the previous decade will be lost when children need it most.
Perhaps uniquely in this area, the quality of relationships is sometimes more important than the system. It is the job of professionals to do the best they can for children—many of them up and down the country do so on a daily basis, often against the odds—but it is our job to create a system that values and recognises their work, to support those relationships, and to support children through them. This is more than just a debate; it is an opportunity to break a cycle that, despite efforts by hon. Members on both sides of the House, still condemns far too many children to a life that falls well short of what they deserve.
The Minister of State, Department for Education (Sarah Teather)
I congratulate the shadow Secretary of State on calling this debate; a debate that brings Members on both sides of the House together is welcome. We largely support similar positions, and we have managed to get away from the tone of debates in the House that cast more heat than light, perhaps including the earlier one.
I also congratulate the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) on her promotion to the Opposition Front Bench, and on her excellent start. I respect her wish to stand at the Government Dispatch Box, but from my perspective, she should be careful what she wishes for. She said she hoped we might be able to work together. The Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), has told me that he has involved in his work the hon. Member for Stockport (Ann Coffey) and the previous hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow, Oona King, who is now a Member of the other place. He even said—tongue in cheek—that he has a Liberal Democrat councillor on one of his groups. [Interruption.] I thought that would be the most controversial thing I could say.
Government Members recognise that this issue cuts across party political boundaries. A number of hon. Members have particular expertise and some who have been lawyers have spoken from their personal experience, whereas others have spoken about experiences in their constituencies. Many of the Opposition Members who have spoken served as Ministers and continue to take a deep and profound interest in these matters.
The issue is a huge priority for the Government and it is one that we take seriously. I know that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary is very grateful for the positive comments made by Members from all parties about his leadership on this matter. We have been particularly active on the subject right from the beginning. As he said, the first review that the Government undertook was the Munro review. Overhauling the child protection system to try to ensure that we place professionalism at the centre, recognising the vulnerability of children in the care system and tackling child exploitation are the three key areas where the Government have been particularly active over the past two years. In responding to the varied comments from hon. Members, I want to make a few remarks about our general reforms before I deal with the issue of child sexual exploitation, which formed the bulk of the debate.
The key principle behind our approach is a determination to restore a focus on the needs of children to a system that had become overburdened with bureaucracy and box-ticking. I think that everybody will recognise that although we would like to remove all risks to children’s safety, that is not a realistic aim and we must accept that no system will ever be able to ensure that a child remains free from harm. The important thing is that professionals are empowered confidently to assess and judge risks and make decisions in the interests of the child. The hon. Member for Erewash (Jessica Lee) spoke from her perspective as a family lawyer about how she saw the enormous burden on many professionals on the front line who, if they had been given more freedom to use their professional judgment, would be able to do so better and in a way that is more in the interests of children.
It is important to state that the reforms made over many years were well intentioned. The work of many thousands of professionals has been incredibly dedicated, but the child protection system has continued to fail far too many children. Sadly, the evidence is only too familiar, with shockingly poor life chances for children in the care system, thousands of children left waiting for foster carers and adoptive parents, and high-profile cases of sexual exploitation, such as the one in Rochdale. I shall deal with that case in a moment.
Starting with the Munro review, we have proposed a new culture in child protection so that we have a system in which the needs of the children always come first and in which hard-working professionals have the time to spend with families. The hon. Member for Wigan asked what we can do to release more time for professionals. Of course, that is exactly what Munro is all about. We need to ensure that they have the power to make decisions and that the care system offers the most vulnerable children in our society real support and protection when they need it most. Most of all, as the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) said, we must ensure that children’s voices are heard because they have been too often ignored.
The three new guidance documents we announced yesterday for consultation are a significant step towards making that culture change a reality. By replacing over 700 pages of rules and instructions with 68 pages of short, precise guidance we are putting power back in the hands of front-line professionals. The documents aim to provide clarity while allowing scope for professional judgment and innovation. They set out the things that must be done and then allow social workers, police, health professionals and others to do their work based on the needs of the individual child and family without being hampered by unnecessary rules and regulations. They give local areas more freedom to organise their services in a way that suits their needs and is set to their own time scales. The hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) spoke about MASH as a prime example of where multi-agency working can make a difference, empowering professionals to work quickly on the ground when a referral is made.
Of course, it is vital that in all that work the local safeguarding boards continue to join up the work across professional boundaries, including in education, as the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) and my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) said. Regardless of the school system, that is essential. The requirements of welfare are the same regardless of the school the child is in as the duty of care under the Children Act 2004 remains exactly the same.
In addition to freeing professionals from unnecessary rules and regulations, we are acting to support excellence in social work. This means attracting high-calibre people to the profession and supporting career development. Working with the Department of Health and the Social Work Reform Board, we have introduced new professional standards, launched the new college of social work, as the hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) mentioned, and made more than £130 million available for social work reform and improvement from 2010-12.
We are in the process of appointing a new chief social worker to be a strong voice for the profession. As my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary said, we aim to appoint in July, which I hope answers the question asked by the hon. Member for Wigan. The number of qualified social workers has risen steadily from 96,000 in 2008-09 to 106,000 in 2011-12, which is a welcome step in the right direction.
Most hon. Members mentioned child sexual exploitation, which has a particularly high profile following the Rochdale case. The hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) spoke very starkly about the problem that many young people face of being treated not as victims, but as criminals, or as having somehow asked for it and provoked the abuse that has devastated their lives. They are treated as though they behaved in some way to bring it on themselves, only compounding the insult already done to them. The hon. Member for Bristol North West and others spoke about the particular difficulties for many young people in recognising that they are victims. It is not always clear to them that they are the victims in this situation as they sometimes mistake their treatment for love or affection, which can make it difficult to identify young people in that position and help them to recover from the abuse that they have suffered.
I know that the hon. Member for Rochdale has briefed the Under-Secretary on his experience in his constituency and has told me that he was grateful for the Under-Secretary’s interest in the issue. The hon. Gentleman mentioned out-of-area placements, and they are an ongoing concern for the Government.
The hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) spoke about different patterns of abuse and made it clear that this is not specifically an Asian issue. In that area, there was that particular pattern, but different patterns occur in different areas, a point that Sue Berelowitz made strongly in her contribution to the Home Affairs Committee this week. Boys as well as girls can be abused, and it is often more difficult for professionals to pick up those problems. Such abuse is often under-reported and it is important that we get better at discovering it. The hon. Lady also raised the need to work together across different professional boundaries. On the child sexual exploitation action plan, the Attorney-General, the Home Office, the Department of Health, the Department for Education and the Ministry of Justice are all working together because we recognise the complexity of the issue.
The plan was published in November and we have now received Sue Berelowitz’s initial report. We intend to respond to that before the summer and we take the concerns that she has raised very seriously. The House will be aware that the Secretary of State asked her to bring forward some of her work to ensure that we pick up all the issues of concern.
Mothers and fathers have a big role to play in helping youngsters make healthy, informed choices about relationships and sexual health. All the evidence indicates that child sexual exploitation can affect any family. It is vital that we support families to make sure that they are able to pick up the tell-tale signals of abuse. There is some helpful advice available, for example the “Spot the Signs” leaflet which is available on the Barnardo’s website. It is important to encourage all parents to be the eyes and ears—
Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab)
claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).
Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.
Question agreed to.
Main Question accordingly put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House notes the updated statutory guidance to safeguard and promote the welfare of children published on 12 June 2012; and calls on the Government to ensure that the needs of the child are at the centre of all assessments and decision-making processes regarding safeguarding, that appropriate information and guidance is provided to young people so they understand the risks of abuse and sexual exploitation, that all local authorities and decision-makers are upholding the highest standards when it comes to integrated care access and multi-disciplinary and multiagency working, and that early intervention programmes are promoted on the best available evidence, and to clarify who is responsible within Government for implementing the measures included in the new guidance.
Business of the House
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 15),
That, at this day’s sitting, proceedings on the Motion in the name of Sir George Young relating to Sittings of the House (21 June) may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour, and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply.—(Mr Newmark.)
Question agreed to.
Sittings of the House (21 June)
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of the House of Commons (Mr David Heath)
I beg to move,
That, at the sitting on Thursday 21 June—
(1) the House shall meet at 9.30 am, and will first proceed with any private business, petitions, and motions for unopposed returns;
(2) Standing Order No. 9 (Sittings of the House) shall apply to the sitting on that day with—
(a) the omission of paragraph (1) and of the proviso to paragraph (7); and
(b) the insertion of references to 2.30 pm as the moment of interruption;
(3) notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 15 (Exempted business), no opposed business shall be taken after the moment of interruption;
(4) no questions shall be taken, save as provided in paragraph (5) below;
(5) at 11.00 am the Speaker may interrupt the proceedings in order to permit questions to be asked which are in his opinion of an urgent character and relate either to matters of public importance or to the arrangement of business, statements to be made by Ministers, or personal explanations to be made by Members;
(6) if the House is in committee at 11.00 am, and the Speaker’s intention to permit such questions, statements or explanations has been made known, the occupant of the chair shall leave the chair without putting any question, and report that the committee has made progress and ask leave to sit again;
(7) the proviso to paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 88 (Meetings of general committees) shall not apply;
(8) no general committees shall meet after 2.30 pm;
(9) when a substantive motion for the adjournment of the House has been made by a Minister of the Crown, the Speaker shall put the question forthwith; and
(10) there shall be no sitting in Westminster Hall.
It seems only yesterday that I last had the opportunity to address the House on a procedural motion as a result of an objection from the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope), but of course I am delighted to do so again. I am just saddened that he does not seem to have joined us.
The motion is simple. As you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, Mr Speaker and the noble Lady the Lord Speaker have invited that remarkable lady, Aung San Suu Kyi, to address Members of both Houses in Westminster Hall on Thursday 21 June. The motion simply adjusts the hours of the House on that day as if it were a Friday sitting to accommodate that visit and to allow Members to hear her. The House will therefore sit at 9.30 am. I hope this will be for the convenience of hon. Members on both sides of the House, and I commend the motion to the House.
Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
We support the motion. It is a simple change in the business to accommodate the important address to both Houses of Parliament by Aung San Suu Kyi, which I think most Members will be looking forward to. I note that there will also be a business statement, which will, of course, give us the opportunity of listening once again to the Leader of the House and the shadow Leader of the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Business without Debate
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Delegated Legislation
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
House of Commons Members’ Fund
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Women in Science
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
I am grateful for the granting of this debate and to the Minister for his attendance. I hope that he takes this debate in the spirit intended, rather than along party political lines, because the role of women in science is a matter for the whole country and where we see ourselves as a nation in the future. It is particularly important because other countries are taking investment in science seriously. I hope to demonstrate, first, that there is a problem; secondly, that the current solution to women and science, as suggested by the Government policy to cut the grant to the United Kingdom Resource Centre, is not adequate to address the problem; and, thirdly, that there are solutions to the problem.
I pay tribute to those women scientists who have made discoveries that have changed the world: Dorothy Hodgkin, who should have been awarded the Nobel prize for her structure of penicillin and vitamin B12; Rosalind Franklin, who in my view should have shared the Nobel prize with Watson and Crick for her work on the structure of DNA and RNA; and Jocelyn Bell Burnell, who discovered the existence of pulsars, helped build the telescope and had to be persistent in recording and convincing her supervisor about the existence of pulsars. He went on to win the Nobel prize but she was not included—there seems to be a pattern here—although she went on to become the first president of the Institute of Physics. What about the consultant Dr Wendy Savage, who, when she first came to the London hospital, was told by her senior consultant:
“there’s no place in gynaecology and obstetrics for women”,
or Professor Lesley Yellowlees, the first woman president in the 171-year history of the Royal Society of Chemistry?
There are many more women who have worked tirelessly behind the scenes, particularly in Bedford college, where I studied biochemistry. It was set up by Elizabeth Jesser and was the first higher education college for women, producing pioneering women scientists. It is always the case that women have to ask for things and start movements. We are never given anything directly. Dr Elizabeth Blackwell was the first woman doctor, while Dr Sophie Bryant was the first woman to be awarded a doctorate.
I had the pleasure to host a reunion of some of those spirited women, who, with their persistence, made it easier for future generations, who perhaps sometimes do not realise the difficulties women scientists used to face. That is the spirit that runs through this country and gives it backbone, and it must be harnessed and cherished, not abandoned.
What about science now? In my view, women in science—indeed, science generally—are under threat. The Biochemical Society has conducted a survey in which women scientists expressed a number of concerns—I am not sure whether the Minister has seen the survey, but if not, I am happy to send it to him. Those women scientists cited inflexible funding structures, which mean that women are unable to take time out, perhaps to look after children, without being left behind. Universities could be more supportive of families and child care, thereby making it easier for women to balance family life and work. Any time taken off—say, for child care—results in a lack of publications, and it is hard to compete for jobs without published work. Short-term contracts cannot provide job and financial security, and are not conducive to family life. In 2001, 51% of all women academic staff were on fixed-term contracts, compared with 44% of men, and the percentage increase for women was 58%, compared with 20% for men. In 2011, 67% of part-time staff were women.
Let me turn to the United Kingdom Resource Centre for women, the body set up to help employers and organisations to enable women to achieve their potential across the STEM and SET work force—that is, in science, technology, engineering and maths, or in science, engineering and technology. The UKRC has identified that 5.3% of all working women—or one in 20—are employed in a SET occupation, compared with one in three men. Nearly 100,000 female STEM graduates are either unemployed or economically inactive. That is bad for the economy, particularly in engineering, which is a predominantly male work force, with many engineers over 50 and due to retire in the next 10 years. This is a golden opportunity to make the sector gender-inclusive. The UKRC has also worked with a major firm called Arup, which has given it a glowing testimonial. It has also found that in 2009 girls accounted for 48.8% of STEM GCSE exam entries, but only 42.2% at A-level, and that women accounted for only 33.2% in higher education, with only 9.6% in computing and 22.2% in physics.
What about the solutions? I urge the Minister to think again about cutting the grant and changing the nature of the work conducted by the UKRC, and to work with the UKRC alongside any other initiatives that the Government want to set up.
Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the reason the decision should be reconsidered is that the UKRC has, over seven or eight years, built up a lot of expertise? By making the change that they have, the Government are in danger of losing the benefit of all that experience.
Valerie Vaz
I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention and for the work that she is doing for women in science. Indeed, I will mention her later in relation to a publication that she edited.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I congratulate the hon. Lady on bringing this matter to the House this evening. Is she aware that there is a CBI report out, entitled “SET for growth”, which indicates that there will be a critical need for science, engineering and technology students over the coming years? Does she feel that, for that reason alone, the Government should reconsider their decision, which will reduce the number of ladies involved in those professions?
Valerie Vaz
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, and I absolutely agree with him. That is why we are all here this evening: because we take the issue seriously.
The UKRC has the expertise. It is carrying out good work, it has a recognised brand name and it is an organisation that can collate, draw together and disseminate good practice. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. UKRC needs core funding to do regional outreach work, which is not readily supported by employers, and to direct services to unemployed women and returners. It cannot charge for support services such as mentoring, as the cost would be prohibitive to small companies.
The Minister said in a written ministerial statement on 3 February 2011 that a number of organisations would be responsible for collecting data. One already exists, however: the UKRC. It would save on costs. People have to pay for figures from the Higher Education Statistics Agency, and an employer that did not want to change its practices might not want to pay for UKRC’s services. Core funding is therefore required to enable UKRC to show such employers that part-time women scientists are still committed to their work and the organisation.
Employing women of child-bearing age is, unfortunately, still an issue—especially now, as some employers want to hire and fire at will. I ask the Minister to think again about the Government’s policy of using UKRC to find ambassadors, because the problem of women in science will not be solved by volunteers alone. I also ask him to look at some of the solutions put forward by women scientists responding to the Biochemical Society. Those solutions include: establishing funding streams that are not conditional on an academic publication record; removing the upper age limit on career advancement grants to give flexibility; providing funding or fellowships for part-time positions, to encourage women to have flexible working arrangements; and supporting the work of the Daphne Jackson Trust by providing grants or support for returners. If the Government were to provide a grant that resulted in a commercial gain from the research, perhaps they could take a percentage as a return.
I ask the Minister again to consider providing clear targets, which is the main way of measuring improvements in achieving equality. That has also been suggested by the Campaign for Science and Engineering. Will he also consider adopting a long-term strategy, rather than one that simply responds to demographic change? Such a strategy must be built within the system, from school onwards.
I also ask the Minister to look at the publication from the Institution of Mechanical Engineers—brilliantly edited by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) and published by the Smith Institute last year—entitled “Unlocking Potential”. It found that there was no shortage of women to take up the challenge. The information and evidence on how to recruit and retain women scientists is there, in that pamphlet. Will the Minister also ensure that Government funding for all activities for diversity in science is made transparent by being published, historically and in future?
I have to sound a note of caution at this point. Our competitors are getting ahead of us. In a recent article in the New Scientist, Penny Sarchet wrote:
“Germany has been quietly funnelling a considerable amount of money into science and research with the goal of becoming one of the ‘world’s best three science nations by 2020’.”
Germany has put money into increasing university attendance and boosting innovation to such an extent that, in 2011, the European Commission described it as an “innovation leader”, whereas the UK was an “innovation follower”. I do not know whether Members recall “Tomorrow’s World”, with the excellent James Burke and Judith Hann, which inspired quite a lot of us youngsters at the time. If there is a BBC producer listening, perhaps they could revive the programme and show it at peak time instead of “Strictly Come Dancing”, with presenters who are diverse in age and gender.
Many companies see research and development as their engines for growth to develop and progress. Research cannot be measured by tick-boxes—it takes time. I am sure, Madam Deputy Speaker, that you will have been mesmerised by the transit of Venus. Everyone who is alive now will not be alive when Venus passes across the face of the sun again; certain things carry on long after we leave this earth. I hope that I have persuaded the Minister that investing in science and women in this country will provide a lasting legacy that will endure long beyond the next transit of Venus.
The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Willetts)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) on raising this important subject and on the way in which she has pursued her argument. She provided an impressive list of female scientists. As we know from the history of science, women who made great scientific advances did not always receive the credit they were due. I hope that that is all changing, however. The three scientists presenting the excellent television programme on the transit of Venus did an excellent job, and I hope that it contained a subliminal message for the audience that they should make no assumptions about the gender of a scientist.
The Government are, of course, committed to promoting science as whole, with our funding settlement—the ring-fenced £4.6 billion a year—and we are also committed to promoting equality in the workplace, as all our announcements on flexible working and parental leave demonstrate. We certainly agree with the hon. Lady that the STEM work force should be diverse, should reflect wider society and should make use of all the talents available to it. She is correct that investing in science and research with a high-quality STEM work force is vital to our economy, and, more widely, to having a civilised society that is fully able to grasp and be at the frontier of scientific advance. Our research base misses out if it does not draw on scientists and engineers from as wide a talent pool as possible, including people who are economically disadvantaged, a wide range of ethnic groups and, of course, women.
I have some sympathy with the hon. Lady’s point about the way in which the research career structure has developed. The large number of short-term contracts can be tough for people—men or women—who are trying to combine a research career with raising a family. Looking at the situation, it is important to do what we can to help post-docs. That is one reason why we support the concordat to support the career development of researchers and the Vitae programme, which began under the previous Government and we are committed to maintaining. I do not think that the hon. Lady referred to Vitae—perhaps the one omission in her speech—which monitors what is happening and ensures that, wherever possible, we do not have post-doctoral researchers dropping out because the regime is hostile.
When it comes to UKRC, we continue to believe that the best approach is to mainstream its work through all parts of the publicly funded research base to achieve the best outcomes for all under-represented groups. It was put to me by UKRC, after our original decision back in 2010, that it needed time to transfer its knowledge to, and engage with, a broad mix of partners. That was the reason that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills provided UKRC with a further £500,000 of transitional funding for the year 2011-12. I recognise that that has now come to an end, which is why the hon. Lady has raised the issue both at Prime Minister’s questions and in this debate.
Let me briefly remind the hon. Lady of some of things we are doing to mainstream our work on diversity. There is, for example, the crucial work we do through STEMNET—Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics Network. I will be at the Cheltenham science festival tomorrow and look forward to meeting STEMNET ambassadors there as I have in the past. On average, 40% of those ambassadors are female and, within the science and mathematics strands, it is 60%, showing that we have made a real effort to ensure that STEMNET ambassadors are truly representative.
We continue to commit ourselves to raising our game on that. Indeed, there is a new STEM diversity programme. Late last year, I asked the Royal Society and the Royal Academy of Engineering to lead jointly a programme to tackle the long-standing issue of diversity in STEM. They are taking this forward through their existing and excellent relationships with a diverse mix of STEM institutions and businesses to try to challenge leadership at all levels to take on responsibility for delivering equality and diversity. I know that the Royal Society has begun this process by consulting and engaging leaders in the scientific community to draw in expertise and commitment to the programme. Having participated in discussions with Sir Paul Nurse, I know how personally committed he is. The Royal Society is going to carry this forward with an 18-month policy study on this subject. The diversity programme of the Royal Academy of Engineering is engaging the professional engineering institutions, industry, education, and other STEM and diversity organisations. When we say that we are mainstreaming the work of the UKRC, we mean that we are continuing to ensure that women are properly represented as STEMNET ambassadors. The new STEM diversity programme involves the Royal Society and the Royal Academy of Engineering.
Meg Munn
No one would want to argue with the principle of mainstreaming, but does the Minister not understand that the role played by the UKRC supported that mainstreaming by bringing together sources of expertise and developing new ways of working? For instance, companies were given a charter so that they really understood what they needed to do in order to mainstream. Does the Minister not accept that the tiny amount that is now being spent on women in science is simply not enough to tackle the issue raised by my hon. Friend about the competitiveness of other countries? The big budget for science is welcome, but please will he consider giving more money to UKRC?
Mr Willetts
I meant what I said about mainstreaming the UKRC’s work. We shall have to see through 2012-13, but I agree with Opposition Members that the UKRC has developed genuine expertise in this area, and part of the purpose of the transitional funding was to ensure that that expertise should not be entirely lost. We want it to be incorporated in the work of other groups which we consider to have, if anything, a wider reach than the UKRC. I am thinking of, for example, the big bang fair, the national science and engineering competition, the research councils UK fellowships, STEMNET—to which I have already referred—and the national academies. Much is being done to draw on the expertise of the UKRC so that greater progress can be made on diversity, and we believe that better value can be realised through those broader activities and the better direction of existing diversity projects.
We continue to believe that mainstreaming the work of the UKRC is the best way forward, but I can report that we are making progress through the range of initiatives that are under way. I was struck by the evaluation of the 2010 big bang fair, which demonstrated that 48% of those who attended were girls and that the full range of socio-economic neighbourhoods were represented, with 30% of attendees coming from the lowest socio-economic quartile. As for the national science and engineering competition, 45% of both entrants and winners have consistently been girls. I was in Birmingham for the results of the competition, and I observed that girls and young women were very well represented at all levels of the school and academic process.
We think we can ensure that the expertise of the UKRC is mainstreamed, while also ensuring that there is diversity in other dimensions through a commitment to equality that involves ethnic diversity and opportunities for people from a wider range of economic backgrounds. I salute the support for women in science that has been expressed by those who have spoken this evening, and I will of course continue to listen to their advice and engage with them. I am sorry not to have been able to address their specific concern about the UKRC, but I fully accept the challenge of continuing to be held accountable for ensuring that we do indeed mainstream the expertise developed by that organisation.
Question put and agreed to.
Petitions
DVLA Office Network
Saltford Station
Westminster Hall
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Free School Meals (Colleges)
(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab)
I am sure that it will be a pleasure serving under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, and I am pleased to be doing so. I thank hon. Members from all parties who have taken the trouble to attend what I consider an important debate. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) for the enormous amount of work that she has done on this issue, bringing it to public attention.
I hope that we have reached consensus across political parties that action is needed. The issue is simple. Those who are in school and go through to school sixth forms continue to receive free school meals and those who are in free schools or academies from 16 to 19 or in university technology colleges are entitled to free school meals, but those who are in general further education or in sixth-form colleges are not. That is so inequitable, unfair and discriminatory that I know that the Minister will say, “Time to put this right.” As it is unfair and discriminatory, it is unjustifiable. The Minister might say, “Why didn’t you do this before?” Do you know, there are times in life when it is best to put our hands up and say, “We should have done.”? Of course, we introduced the education maintenance allowance. I was Secretary of State when we introduced it and I am proud of it, and I am sorry that it has effectively been abolished.
I was proud of our Government’s taking steps to equalise funding, which the coalition Government are continuing, between those in different forms of 16-to-19 provision. That is welcome. We do not, of course, have a pupil premium for those aged 16 to 19. Had we such a provision, it might be possible to argue that youngsters from disadvantaged backgrounds and low-income families would receive additional support, but they do not.
The issue is simple. Is it right that more than 100,000 young people, nationally, should be denied something—because they made a conscious decision or received proper careers advice and took up courses in sixth-form colleges and in further education—that those who continue into school sixth forms get automatically. Clearly, it is neither acceptable nor justifiable.
I hope that, with a smile on his face, the Minister—[Interruption.] I do not know how often he smiles.
Mr Blunkett
I understand that the Minister is smiling now, and I hope that that will yield fruit. I know that the case that will be put over the next 85 minutes by hon. Members from all parties will persuade him.
We have two new sixth-form institutions in my constituency. One, known as Hillsborough college, is part of Sheffield college and the other is a free-standing sixth-form college called Longley Park. Both were established from 2004. Up to that time, my constituency regrettably had the third worst figures in the country for staying on in education post-16. Only Bristol South and Nottingham North were worse. A great deal of work was done by the Further Education Funding Council, which became the Learning and Skills Council, including, for example, research by Sheffield Hallam university on the causes and issues.
We were convinced that youngsters would stay on if there was an accessible institution, with support—the education maintenance allowance—and if their parents could be persuaded that youngsters would be supported in other ways. That worked. Both institutions that I have mentioned are now over-subscribed, contrary to what the cynics thought, and young people’s lives have been transformed. Now the colleges are worried about what is happening to the young people in terms of the careers advice that they receive, because careers advice has been in what might be described generously as an interregnum. I hope that, online or otherwise, advice will be more readily available.
Advice is skewed. Understandably, because it is human nature, schools with sixth forms do their best to persuade youngsters to stay in the school. If they can also say, “And you’ll receive free meals,” where entitlement exists and, “But if you take a different course or even the same one in a college, you will not receive free school meals,” that is bound to have at least some impact on a really disadvantaged family. That brings me to my final point, because I want other hon. Members to emphasise the situation.
Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
I am one of eight children and, unfortunately, felt the embarrassment or shame of having to claim free school meals. Not only should those aged 16 to 18 in further education who qualify get school meals, but there should be a way to pay for those meals that does not single them out: a cashless payment of some sort. In Liverpool, Walton, extrapolating what happens in school, some 24% of those going into FE could be entitled. It is important that we de-stigmatise people on free school meals.
Mr Blunkett
My hon. Friend is right. With the advent of new technology, it is possible to make the system sensitive, non-discriminatory and easy. Institutions with other facilities that are available to disadvantaged youngsters make them available appropriately and sensitively.
Mr Field
I hope that the Minister has the same view as my right hon. Friend.
Some time ago, on a Friday afternoon, I asked a group of 15-year-olds in Birkenhead what they wanted from school. I asked how many of them would have their next proper main meal at their school dinners on Monday. About 40% of that group would wait till Monday for their next main meal. That does not mean that some poor families are not good at budgeting and would not ensure that their children were well fed over the weekend, but it underscores my right hon. Friend’s point that, for many families on low incomes, it is difficult to make ends meet. We give child benefit up to the age of 19, and school dinner costs wipe out that additional sum given to families.
I hope that the Minister will, with a smile on his face—[Interruption.] He is smiling. I cannot believe that it would be impossible for him, looking at the Department’s budget over, say, the past three years, to find a spare £30 million at the end of the year and allocate it to the task that my right hon. Friend has brought to his attention.
Mr Blunkett
I agree. I do not want to want to give away secrets, but there were times between 1997 and 2001, when I had responsibility for education, when I was told by officials that there was no chance of finding the necessary funding for small expenditure and schemes. I am sure that the Minister has found that to be so in the past two years. However, it is amazing, when suggesting taking away things that officials are particularly interested in, how the money suddenly emerges. I recommend that he think about that. The now Lord Heseltine mentions some interesting times when reflecting on his wily ways and getting his own way when he was a Secretary of State. I recommend that the Minister chat with him if he has any problems finding the resource.
Sheffield college, including Hillsborough college, takes on 47% of all the youngsters who had free school meals during their school life. Longley Park and Sheffield colleges between them have more than 1,000 youngsters who would have been entitled to free school meals had they been on a sixth-form course. That is clearly unacceptable, in particular given that Sheffield college has had to set up food banks to help students and that staff bring in food parcels for the youngsters, although, obviously, in a sensitive way behind the scenes. However, that is not a situation that we can countenance in 2012, whatever the deficit or the difficulties of the recession. I rest my case.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
I am grateful to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) on securing this important debate. I have huge admiration for him, in particular over his police community support officer reforms, although they are not the subject of the debate. I was sceptical about PCSOs, but now, having seen how they work in my constituency, I realise how successful they are.
I declare an interest: with the hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins), I chair the all-party parliamentary group for further education, skills and lifelong learning. I have also done a lot of work on apprenticeships since I was elected.
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman’s main argument that there should be a more level playing field. I am a strong supporter of the Association of Colleges and of the college in my own constituency. Harlow college has achieved the best success rates in the country because it does everything that it can to help those from poorer incomes, with apprenticeship programmes for young people leaving care or for single parents returning to work and with its own version of free school meals, even though it has no such obligation and little funds.
I have two main points. First, the landscape of provision is fragmented, and part of the problem is the lack of good information about which pupils at further education colleges are most in need of free school meals. Secondly, we must make the moral case; for example, if the benefit were linked not only to attendance but to hard work and getting good reports from the teacher, it would prove to lower-earning taxpayers who subsidise benefits that the money was being spent wisely and that students were taking responsibility. I will look at each point in turn.
First, the problem is similar to an iceberg, in that we might be seeing only the visible tip. Harlow college in my constituency, for example, estimates that at least 350 of its students are in severe need of free school meals; those are young people who turn up to college hungry every day, and whose education is at significant risk as a result. Harlow college does not get funding directly to help such students, but it has used the new 16-to-18 bursary scheme, which replaced education maintenance allowance, to give some of them a food subsidy of around £1.20 a day, three days a week, through the campus canteen. That is not as generous as free school meals, but the college is doing what it can with a limited budget. Furthermore, in my constituency only one school has a sixth form, so the vast majority of children go to Harlow college.
The college principal, Colin Hindmarch, has no legal obligation to do any of that, and the money he gets is insufficient to provide full meals through the week, but he believes that what he does is necessary to help the poorest students. I admire many things about Harlow college and the principal, but, above all, the belief that everyone can get good results, no matter what start they have had in life, if the college gives support.
The problem, however, is made harder because the college does not know who is likely to be hungry. Eighty secondary schools send pupils there, and most of the schools do not share data on free school meals with the college, which therefore has to guess—in essence—who needs help and who is at risk. The Association of Colleges estimates the cost of extending the right to free meals to college students at around £38 million. As the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough said, much of that money could be found through efficiencies; for example, the free schools budget is running a surplus, so perhaps some of the money could be taken from there.
Mr Frank Field
I want to emphasise what the hon. Gentleman said. The outside world listening to the debate will be shocked, but we get used to saying things and often not appreciating what the words mean. He said that some of the students in his constituency are hungry, and that would be true for many. As in Sheffield, two colleges in my constituency are in the same position—had pupils gone to the sixth form of their school, they would have free school dinners, but they do not get them at the colleges. In this day and age, in a very rich country, we are talking about some of our pupils being hungry. That is the most extraordinary state of affairs, which I hope will be borne in mind by the Minister when he replies. He is presiding over an education system in which some people are hungry.
Robert Halfon
As so often on social issues, the right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Those students are doing the right thing—they are going to college because they want to learn—but for them to go to college and not to have the money to feed themselves, through no fault of their own, is socially unjust.
The moral case for free school meals means that we need a fair deal between students and taxpayers, something that is respectful of both sides. We must help the hungry students, to give them the energy to concentrate, but it is also fair to ask them to work hard and to apply themselves, rather than to attend only; that was a problem with EMA. The welfare state fails when it becomes simply a handout—unconditional and too easily abused. At times, that can be deeply corrosive of public confidence, undermining support for helping the most vulnerable in our society. That is why I support reforms such as universal credit, because it is a proper contract. It says that it will always pay to work but also that welfare is conditional on genuine effort to find a job. I urge the Government to embed the same DNA in other entitlements, especially free school meals or alternatives such as the 16-to-18 bursary.
I am not arguing for the nanny state, because we can make a cost-benefit analysis. For example, in 2011 the Food for Life Partnership published academic research showing that a better uptake of free school meals increased school grades and, ultimately, the life chances of young people. Head teacher Seamus O’Donnell, who was involved in the pilot studies, stated:
“After lunchtime we used to have around 10 to 12 call outs for challenging behaviour in an hour. We did a survey two years ago after the pilot, and we were down to four. There was a correlation between improved food provision in school and better behaviour after lunchtime.”
Angela Smith
The hon. Gentleman is generous to give way, given that I intend to speak, but I must respond to point out that in countries such as Finland all children, regardless of their background, get a free school meal up to the age of 18, and Finland has one of the highest levels of educational attainment in the world. We are not talking about the nanny state. Is there not a case for ensuring that children are able to learn while in the school environment?
Robert Halfon
That is where I differ from the hon. Lady. I believe passionately that free school meals should be available for people on lower incomes, especially those who go to FE colleges. As I have argued, we do not have a level playing field, and I do not accept the argument that the majority of taxpayers, who are lower earners, should subsidise school meals for those from wealthier incomes.
In conclusion, we cannot have FE colleges that are only for the wealthy—the problem is that only wealthy students who can afford school meals will be encouraged to go. There is a cost-benefit argument for some form of free school meals, or a subsidised canteen as in Harlow college, so I urge the Government to look at obliging schools to share data with FE colleges on which pupils need free school meals; more financial support for FE colleges, to level the playing field with sixth-form colleges and schools, and topping up the new 16-to-18 bursary scheme; and, finally, embedding the DNA of universal credit in entitlements such as free school meals, to show that it is a contract and not a handout. If lower-earner taxpayers are to make a contribution, it is only fair for students to offer something in return, such as the promise to work hard at their studies.
The Government have the ambition of 100% of young people aged 16 to 18 participating in education and training by 2015. The experience of Harlow college shows that fair provision of free school meals will be absolutely essential to achieving that.
Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
I pay tribute to the eloquence with which my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) made the case for free school meals for young people in further education colleges. I remember him saying to me some years ago, before I was an MP, that everything that he did politically was referenced back to whether it would have a positive impact on the lives of people in Parson Cross, which is in his constituency. There is no better tribute to a political career than that. I am pleased to follow him and the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) in this debate.
The reforming Liberal Government of 1906 first introduced measures to give power to local councils to provide free school meals to children from poor families. By 1914, more than 158,000 were consuming a free meal once a day, but that was low compared with the number of poor children who needed free meals. The Butler Act—the Education Act 1944—made it an entitlement for pupils to receive a free school meal.
Eligibility for a free meal has traditionally applied to those whose families are in receipt of certain benefits or tax credits, and the latest estimates are that around 1.2 million children are entitled to a free school meal. It is not always about welfare dependency; it is about people on low pay who do not earn enough to feed their children and families. The entitlement developed slowly within the education system over the previous century, but the problem, and the key point, is that much of the older legislation does not apply to further education colleges. That creates an anomaly, of course, because the practical consequence is that young adults studying at FE colleges are not entitled to a free meal, while those studying in a sixth form enjoy the continuation of the benefit they accessed when they were in five-to-16 education.
There are 345 FE colleges in the UK, teaching some 634,000 students, and it is estimated that some 103,000 of those young adults would be entitled to a free meal. Broadly speaking, that is 13% of those attending college. In the two local authorities straddled by my constituency, the figures are stark. My right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough referred to the figures for Longley Park college, but 870 students—13%—at Sheffield college, which broadly covers the city, would be eligible for free meals. In Barnsley, 622 students—14%—are missing out on a free meal. Interestingly, new institutions such as academies, free schools, and university technical colleges, as my right hon. Friend said, are funded to provide free meals.
Steve Rotheram
The statistics and proportions show that the anomaly disproportionately disadvantages those from poorer backgrounds. In part of my constituency, 73% of school pupils receive free school meals, but some pupils from the same background and perhaps from the same families do not because they attend FE colleges. There are two groups from the same socio-economic background. In Liverpool community college, that equates to 1,000 pupils. Does my hon. Friend agree that colleges are doing what they can, but Government intervention is needed to equalise the way the rules treat two different groups?
Angela Smith
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Another twist in the inequality embedded in the present situation is that youngsters at college are more likely than school sixth formers to come from poorer backgrounds, with 10.2% of sixth formers eligible for free meals. That means that the discrimination is against the majority of disadvantaged students, and that is the key point.
Mr Frank Field
I am chair of an academy in Birkenhead, and although our figures are not quite as bad as those in Walton, almost 70% of pupils receive free school dinners. The academy does not have a sixth form, because we decided not to at the present time, so pupils must choose either to find a job, which is difficult in Birkenhead and Walton, or to go to the sixth form college or the metropolitan college. What those colleges do is terrific, but pupils do not receive free dinners. If they were in a school with a sixth form, they would not face that stark choice. Previous Governments of both parties encouraged Birkenhead not to have sixth forms, but to concentrate our efforts and expertise on two colleges.
Angela Smith
My right hon. Friend is right. In Barnsley, we have only one sixth form, and the college is the main provider. In Sheffield in the past 30 years, most of the sixth forms have been in the south-west in Sheffield Hallam, which is one of the richest constituencies in the north of England. The case is made.
Students who attend college must often travel further to their place of study, which increases the cost of the commute, leaving less money for food. Overall, the truth of the matter is that a substantial proportion of the disadvantaged young are being discriminated against because of their post-16 education choice—when there is a choice—making it harder for them to achieve their goals and to secure their future as adults. It is important to remember that vocational choices are found more often in colleges than in sixth forms.
An objection to extending free meals to college students is that we would have to legislate, but it is the opinion of many who have looked at the matter that including FE colleges in the provision would not require legislation. This is despite Government—I use the word broadly—claiming that colleges are not classed as schools, so the students are not entitled to such provision. It is worth noting that under the Education Act 2011 an academy is not classed as a school. However, parliamentary answers indicate that funding agreements with academies provide the framework within which those institutions operate, and that they require academies to provide free meals to eligible pupils aged up to 18 years, or aged up to 18 before they start their course—I think the rule is up to 19 or 24. That effectively dismisses the Department for Education’s previous statements that only schools can provide free meals.
The Association of Colleges estimates that the cost would be £38 million. To put that into perspective, the Department for Education’s total budget is £56 billion, so the cost is equivalent to 1p for every £14 the Department spends. The cost is small change to the Department, and surely it must be affordable—the case has been made this morning—even in the context of so-called austerity budgeting.
That is particularly the case when considering the cost to the country of not providing free meals to eligible FE students. The Association of Colleges recently stated:
“The lifetime public finance cost of young people not participating in education, employment or training of those aged 16-18 is estimated to be at least £12 billion.”
The majority of those young people would, of course, attend college rather than a sixth form, and would take vocational courses, catch-up courses, literacy courses and so on. Their non-participation in post-16 education rightly worries us all. There is consensus on the need to deal with the problem. It should also be remembered that there is a significant cost if individuals do not participate in further education and therefore do not secure the skills and qualifications needed to gain quality employment.
The Association of Colleges also stated:
“We believe extending the right to free meals for College students aged 16-18 would encourage participation of this age group in education and training, which is especially important as the Government seeks 100% participation.”
Research by Barnardo’s has also found that many young people in FE do not eat at lunchtime; indeed in my constituency, Sheffield college, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough said, has had to establish a food bank with donations from college staff. On the other hand, Barnsley college uses learner support fund money to provide free meals—it does so independently—to those from families where the income is below £15,000. If there was an FE entitlement to free meals, that learner support fund could be used to help the broader needs of students who previously benefited from education maintenance allowance.
Behind the statistics, however, lie some disturbing and moving stories. John—not his real name—is a 17-year-old student at Sheffield college who lives in a hostel following family difficulties. He asked the college for help when he was struggling to afford to eat and had run out of money, and he received a token for free soup and a roll. He said:
“I found it a bit embarrassing going to collect the soup, and handing over the token. I felt like everyone around me knew my situation.”
John receives £112.50 in income support every two weeks, and he gets £20 education maintenance allowance. He pays £17 fortnightly for his hostel room, and he also has to pay for his food, travel and equipment. He says that he sometimes misses lunch at least once a week to save money.
My view is simple: the cost of implementing a scheme for free meals would be small and a fraction of the cost to the country of doing nothing. The present situation is grossly inequitable and needs reform. No logical argument can justify a situation in which a 16-year-old who is entitled to a free meal will get one if he or she registers at a sixth form, but will lose it if he or she enrols at an FE college.
I look forward to the response from the Minister, who I know is a reasonable man because I have sat on Committees with him—[Interruption.] He is smiling again now. I hope to hear details about when the Government will act to remove this discrimination from our education system. It makes financial sense, it is the fair thing to do, and it will help give youngsters from poor backgrounds a greater incentive to better themselves, thereby helping themselves and the country in the process.
Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your stewardship, Mr Davies, and I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) for the opportunity to take part in this important debate. As he rightly notes, it seeks to end an anomaly that penalises some of the most disadvantaged teenagers in our education system, including those in my constituency of Gosport who are committed to furthering their education and their opportunities in life at our great local sixth-form colleges.
St Vincent college provides a diverse education for more than 1,000 16 to 18-year-olds. It has been recognised by Ofsted as the heart of the local community, and it continues to offer a range of practical and innovative courses—such as last year’s successful marine skills course—that seek to attract those not in education, employment or training. As hon. Members may be aware, it also produced this year’s BBC “Apprentice” winner, Ricky Martin—of which it is very proud.
Despite the importance of this local college, however, its students are being served a raw deal because as a number of colleagues have pointed out, they are denied the privilege afforded to their counterparts in school sixth forms throughout the area—the simple right to a free lunch for pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds.
I believe that state of affairs persists as an anomaly and not as a deliberate policy. It makes no sense for new academies, university technical colleges and free schools to offer free lunches while pupils at sixth-form colleges are excluded, and such an anomaly needs to be addressed. As the principal of one of my local colleges highlighted, the lack of a good, nutritious lunch can harm concentration, undermine achievement and deter participation among the most disadvantaged students.
The anomaly also flies in the face of the Government’s wider record on education, which reflects the Department for Education’s absolute commitment to improving school provision, widening access, and prolonging participation in education and training. That record speaks for itself, with colleges that have been freed from bureaucracy, more than 1,776 academies open across England, and a 63% increase in apprenticeships in just one year.
I acknowledge the argument put forward by Ministers that sixth-form colleges often operate a more flexible timetable than comparable institutions, yet often that is precisely the reason why they need more support. The Association of Colleges estimates that three times as many students at college would qualify for a free lunch as in a school sixth form. Through their flexibility and diversity of subject provision, sixth-form colleges are clearly succeeding in attracting those from more disadvantaged backgrounds, and it is ludicrous that they are denied the resources to support those students.
Ultimately, it is not necessary to prove that offering free school meals to the most disadvantaged students is fair and right; that has already been established. There is no need to argue about whether a good, nutritious meal helps students in their studies because we already know that is the case. We need only to resolve why those fair and reasonable conclusions are applied to academies, free schools and school sixth forms, but not to colleges. The Government have made a firm commitment to improving educational opportunities for all young people. Addressing the anomaly of free school meals would be a small but crucial step towards delivering that commitment.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
It is a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, and I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) on securing this timely and necessary debate. It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage), who put her finger on it when she said that this is a raw deal. She then spelt out clearly and succinctly why that is the case and why it is not acceptable. It is a long-standing injustice and an issue that I have raised continually since I first came to the House two years ago.
From my 30 years’ experience of working with post-16-year-old students and four years as principal of John Leggott college in Scunthorpe, I know the direct impact that not having access to a college meal in the daytime has on concentration, attendance, retention, achievement and, inevitably, that young person’s progression to other things.
My hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) described the case of John, who said that because he did not have access to a free meal—he met the criteria, but he chose to go to a college rather than a school—he skipped lunch from time to time. That will impact directly on his achievement. John is being disadvantaged by the system and that should not be the case.
If the eligibility of students who meet the criteria for free school meals depends on the type of institution that they attend, that is not only morally wrong but potentially piles disadvantage on top of disadvantage. To be fair, however, I know that the Minister and the Secretary of State for Education realise that the policy is indefensible because of their answers to questions in the House.
On 11 October 2010, I raised this issue, and the Minister—whom I am pleased to see in the Chamber today—stated:
“I take on board the hon. Gentleman’s comments. I share his view. We have committed to maintaining spending on free school meals this year. Further announcements will be made after the spending review.”—[Official Report, 11 October 2010; Vol. 516, c. 14.]
There was clearly a little bit of hope that the anomaly was to be addressed.
The spending review came and went, and I raised the issue again. This time the Secretary of State answered my question:
“That is a fair point—”
I think he was busking at that point—
“As the hon. Gentleman will know, many FE colleges simply do not have the facilities to be able to provide free school meals; they do not have the cafeterias or kitchens in place.”—[Official Report, 28 March 2011; Vol. 526, c. 59.]
The Secretary of State was not having one of his better days, because a parliamentary question to the Minister revealed that fewer schools than colleges have catering facilities, yet they continue to serve free school meals and get round that problem. In my consultation with the Association of Colleges, it demonstrated through a survey of its members that that problem of facilities could be easily overcome.
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
My hon. Friend raises a point about colleges not having the facilities to be able to cook. Does he agree that numerous young people are affected by the situation under discussion? In my constituency, 1,300 young people attend Bolton sixth-form college and 1,272 attend another college in Bolton. They would benefit from free school meals if they were at a school. We are talking about 3,000 pupils being affected.
Nic Dakin
I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. She makes the point very well. Both the Minister and the Secretary of State know that the situation is not right. That is why, when the Secretary of State was in a corner, he produced an answer that was not up to his usual standard. On examination, it falls apart.
My hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) was the last person to obtain a response from the Secretary of State. He raised the issue in October 2011. The answer had slightly changed by then. That is why I am going through these statements—to see the train of thought in the Department on this issue. At that point, the Secretary of State said:
“I am familiar with that anomaly; it is a situation we inherited from the previous Government. We are seeking to ensure that funding is equalised between colleges and school sixth forms.”—[Official Report, 17 October 2011; Vol. 533, c. 622.]
By that point, it had become an anomaly; the reason for it was that it was there in the past. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough, who did a mea culpa at the start of his speech. However, there are reasons why it is more necessary now than ever to deal with the anomaly. It is not acceptable. Students are being disadvantaged.
There are three reasons why the landscape has changed and why dealing with the anomaly is even more urgent. The first is the disappearance of education maintenance allowance. In all my years in education, I have never seen an initiative that has transformed to a greater extent the lives of individual students from disadvantaged backgrounds than education maintenance allowance. It had a direct impact on attendance, retention, achievement and progression. I know that from personal experience and from the analysis done by many organisations, including the Institute for Fiscal Studies and the AOC. However, the Government, in their wisdom, have chosen to take education maintenance allowance away and replace it with a much less effective bursary system, although I do welcome the bursary system. That change has exposed the disadvantage of not being able to access free meals even more than before. The existence of education maintenance allowance masked that disadvantage during the past 10 years.
The second reason the landscape has changed and there is now greater urgency is the raising of the participation age, which I was reminded of during the contribution from the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon). With the raising of the participation age, all students will now progress on beyond 16. Therefore, it is even more urgent that the eligibility for free meals be equalised, because some of the students, or probably most of the students, who would not have progressed beyond 16 in the past will be the very students who should be eligible for free meals.
I come now to the third reason why the landscape is changing. The hon. Member for Gosport talked about the fragmented provision that we now have in the landscape. We have academies, free schools and university technical colleges. Students who go to those institutions can access free school meals. If a new post-16 free school or post-16 academy is set up, it can offer free school meals, but a 16-to-19 sixth-form college or further education college cannot. If I were still a principal of a sixth-form college, perhaps I would have a conversation with my governing body about dissolving as a sixth-form college and re-emerging as a post-16 free school or post-16 academy. Why would that not be a route that I might take? It would enable me to access better resources and provide a more level playing field for the young people of the area that I served.
Those are the three reasons why it is more urgent now to deal with this anomaly; there was still an injustice when my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough was Secretary of State. The three reasons are the disappearance of education maintenance allowance, the forthcoming raising of the participation age and the change in provision—the complete fragmentation—in the landscape of post-16 education.
My hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge and the hon. Member for Gosport reminded us that the most disadvantaged young people are those most likely to attend the post-16 colleges that we are discussing. They are also the ones who are most likely to travel further, so they have greater travel costs. They do not have access to free meals, and there is no education maintenance allowance; there is a reduced bursary.
Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman has a distinguished record in education, and in the light of what he has just said, I think that he will understand what I am about to say. Thanet college, which takes many of my constituents’ children, takes students from some of the most deprived wards in the United Kingdom. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that the students whom we are discussing are the most disadvantaged and have to travel the furthest. What no one has mentioned so far is that those young people have pride. They do not like having to go to the college principal to beg for funding that in any event the principal does not have available to give them, so they spend what little money they have on travelling to college and then they go hungry. That cannot be right.
Nic Dakin
The hon. Gentleman makes his point extremely well. It echoes the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) about the stigma attached to claiming free school meals. However, navigating that territory, as my hon. Friend did and, indeed, I did, as another free-school-meals student in the past, is certainly not as bad as navigating the territory of food bank handouts, which hon. Members have described in the debate.
The hon. Member for Harlow described the situation in his constituency, where the majority of students staying on post-16 go to colleges. The situation is exactly the same in my constituency. More than 400 of my students go on to post-16 education in colleges; it is the main provision locally for post-16 education. If the students in my constituency and the hon. Gentleman’s constituency come from disadvantaged backgrounds, why should they not have the access to free meals that students in other constituencies have? Surely, that is not fair; surely, it is not right.
In Yorkshire and the Humber, 10,700 young people who go to colleges would be eligible but are not receiving free meals. In England, 102,700 young people are in that category; 13% of the students attending colleges in England would be eligible for free meals but are being denied them. The Government are hiding behind an anomaly; that is the language that they are using. I do not think, fellow Members of Parliament, that we can hide any longer behind an anomaly. It is time for action—time for us to do something about it.
I agree with the words of Toni Pearce, National Union of Students vice-president for further education, who said:
“There can be no justification for the basic inequity which says that you can’t get free school meals if you study at a college from the age of 16 to 18, but can if you study at a school sixth form. Eligibility for free meals should clearly be based on need—not on where you choose to study.”
She goes on to support the AOC campaign.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough talked about the hope that there would be cross-party consensus on the issue. We have heard a lot of consensus across the parties in the debate. I had the privilege of serving on the Select Committee on Education when I first came to this place and, as part of our investigation of 16-to-19 participation, we agreed unanimously, across the three parties represented on that Committee, with the statement that it produced:
“There is no logic in making free school meals available to 16-18 year olds in schools but not in colleges”.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
I can add to the cross-party consensus by saying that I think that all politicians, on both sides of the House, would agree that anything that we can do to assist 16 to 18-year-olds in disadvantaged communities—those communities that are particularly affected by socio-economic problems—should be supported in an effort to help them to climb out of the poverty in which many of them live.
Nic Dakin
I absolutely agree.
Finally, because of my background in sixth-form colleges, I would like to touch briefly on the social mobility agenda. We all agree on social mobility. A report published next week by the Sixth Form Colleges Forum will demonstrate that sixth-form colleges have students more likely to have received free school meals and with lower prior educational attainment than school or academy sixth forms. The report uses UCAS data to show that over 30% of sixth-form college students who progress to higher education were from the least advantaged areas of the UK, compared with 23% of those who progressed from schools. In that context, and when schools and academies already receive more funding per student than sixth-form colleges, it makes little sense to disadvantage further an already disproportionately disadvantaged group.
Several Hon. Members: rose—
Philip Davies (in the Chair)
Order. Three hon. Members want to speak. I remind Members that I will call the shadow Minister no later than 10.40.
Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)
My input will be brief. I pay tribute to all those who have spoken so far, who clearly have great knowledge of this area. I want to add a Liberal Democrat voice to the all-party consensus and speak on behalf of my constituency of Redcar.
We are talking about discrimination and fairness. One thing that has not been mentioned clearly so far is that something of a postcode lottery is going on. In areas such as mine, which happen to have sixth-form colleges as the main form of A-level education, the ineligibility applies to virtually everyone who goes on to study. I recently hosted local sixth-form colleges from across the Tees Valley in Parliament. They feel unfairly targeted, as the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) said, and a bit lost between the Department for Education and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, which of course deals with further education colleges. His point about looking at whether they have the right status was mentioned in the discussion that I had, and free school meals are part of that.
In my area, we have a very good sixth-form college—Prior Pursglove in Guisborough—but the fact that it is in Guisborough means that an awful lot of children from Redcar and other local towns have to spend quite a lot of money to get there, which adds to difficulties if they do not get free school meals. Redcar and Cleveland college in my constituency provides further education, and it estimates that at least 240 of its pupils would qualify for free school meals. It could be double that number, because, as previous speakers have said, it is not always easy to get exact information about where free school meals are not available.
The 16-to-18 bursary helps, but it is very stretched. In deprived areas, such as my constituency, the money does not go far. In fact, the principal of Redcar and Cleveland college, Gary Groom, knowing this debate would happen, said:
“What would not be helpful would be for colleges to be asked to find the cost of free school meals from within the already reduced funds given to support learner hardship, this needs to be additional resource targeted directly at those learners that need it most.”
I support that. Colleges are doing a good job. Travel expenses are the main thing they have to use the money for, and as was said earlier, learners should not have to choose between travelling and eating. My area has a very high proportion of NEETs—people not in education, employment or training—in fact, one of the highest proportions in the country. It would particularly benefit from a change in policy.
In addition to 16 to 18-year-olds who are not in a school setting being a little forgotten, the situation means that people are making life choices based on the availability of free school meals in the various establishments, as the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) said. There is one small sixth form in my constituency, based around two schools. That sixth form is always full, and I am sure that the availability of free school meals is one reason. People are making choices based on that availability, rather than on what is best for them.
In areas such as my constituency, education is a key route out of poverty. Creating equal opportunities for young people was one of the main reasons why I came into politics. It is only a small part of the jigsaw, but it is an important one. I hope that the Minister will respond favourably to the debate.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, and a delight to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), who has been a pioneer in so many aspects of 14-to-19 education. I am vice-chair of the all-party group on social mobility, and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) highlighted, free school meals are a critical part of that issue.
I want to highlight some issues in Hackney that demonstrate the benefits of providing support to 16 to 18-year-olds and its impact on their life chances and those of their families in future. Hackney has seen a huge increase in achievement at 16 and 18. A decade ago, Hackney schools were a byword for low quality, with five A to C achievement well below the national average and some schools failing. We now have a range of outstanding schools, with achievements above the national average. Mossbourne academy is well publicised, but it typically achieves 84% five A to Cs, including maths and English. Those young people come from the estates in the surrounding borough, not wealthy areas. They come from a range of backgrounds, but predominantly poorer ones. Young people entering sixth form now get offers of places at leading universities, including Oxford and Cambridge.
When I was selected for Hackney South and Shoreditch, there was a debate at the time about university fees. I said at my selection meeting, “If only we could have the luxury of debating young people in Hackney going on to university,” because at that point, it was not happening in large numbers at all. We needed to invest earlier, and that investment has now happened. Young people are playing their part. They are ambitious and hard-working. Although there may be poverty in terms of money, there is no poverty of ambition. They need this bit of help; they need this barrier dealt with and they need a level playing field.
We know what a difference a good meal makes; my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) highlighted that point, so I will not go into detail. Magic Breakfast is a charity working in Hackney across primary schools, because we know that many children, for all sorts of difficult reasons—not only poverty, but chaotic family backgrounds—turn up to school hungry in the morning. Those young people are given something as simple as a bagel at breakfast club, or extra support at breaktime for those who do not turn up to breakfast club because their parents do not have the wherewithal to get them there. Teachers and head teachers tell me that that has made a major difference to achievement. We know that argument, so I will not go into it further.
In contrast to the constituency of the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales), Hackney has a range of post-16 provision. We have BSix, which is a sixth-form college; sixth forms in schools and academies; 16 to 19-year-olds studying at Hackney community college, which is our local FE college; and the Boxing academy, which offers 14 to 16-year-olds provision when they are unable to cope in mainstream school. We have embraced the 14-to-19 agenda pioneered by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough. Fourteen to 16-year-olds also study at Hackney community college, although they remain on school rolls, so are not affected by the issue.
From September we will be proud to open our first university technical college, on the same campus as Hackney community college, which sponsors it. That brings me to a major anomaly that demonstrates the ridiculous current situation. We will have a university technical college providing places for 14 to 18-year-olds on the same site as Hackney community college providing education equally for 14 to 18-year-olds, but particularly for the 16 to 18-year-olds on its roll. The same site, the same age. Students aged 16 to 18 at the university technical college will qualify for free school meals if they meet the criteria, but on the same campus students of the same age, possibly studying for the same qualification, at Hackney community college will not qualify. How ridiculous is that? As others have said, the Minister is a reasonable man. That situation demonstrates the ridiculousness of the anomaly and why it needs to be resolved.
Our sixth form college, BSix, has 1,500 students, 450 of whom receive bursaries under the bursary scheme. Previously, more than 70% of students received EMA, which was given out in similar numbers across Hackney sixth forms. There are still 568 students on EMA, and most of those will of course require bursary funding in future.
I want to touch on the points made forcefully by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) and by the hon. Member for North Thanet (Sir Roger Gale) about stigma. It is degrading to young people to have to beg someone with whom they have an academic relationship, or the college principal, for help. Someone’s circumstances may change during the year, such as when a parent loses their job, and they must then lay all that personal stuff before someone they want to have a relationship with in the classroom, and beg for money. At that point the bursary fund may have been spent; there may not be money available. The system should not be put in the hands of principals. We had a perfectly good system under EMA, which worked, and I regret that it is gone. The bursary system that replaces it is an acknowledgement by the Government that they made the wrong decision.
Robert Halfon
Does the hon. Lady think that the answer would be a requirement for schools, and the local education authority, to share with the college those pupils who had free school meals at a previous school?
Meg Hillier
I am not quite sure what point the hon. Gentleman is making. If there were a centralised way—I know that the Mayor of London is looking at this—of managing a bursary scheme to make it more like a local EMA, that would at least take out the stigma. There is a benefit in that. I do not think that young people should be told to go to certain places, to share out the number of people receiving free school meals. In Hackney the percentage for free school meal uptake is so high that it would make no difference anyway, but if the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that—I may have misunderstood his point—it would be the wrong way round.
At least 1,000 students at BSix alone would be eligible for free school meals for the next academic year, and that provision will need to be taken from the bursary fund. The raw figures show that 89% of the 450 students receiving bursary funds would be eligible for free school meals. To date in this academic year BSix has spent £96,315 on free school meals—nearly £100,000. That is 45% of its bursary budget, which, if it were a school sixth form, it would not have had to spend. That shows that there is a big cost, which is falling hard on young people.
We often talk about facts and figures, but I want to remind hon. Members of the human story. EMA was used by many pupils in Hackney for basic things. Happily, in London, there are certain travel discounts, or free travel, but there were issues about paying for food. One young woman told me that on a Thursday her EMA was used to top up the electricity key. It is as simple as that; it was used to have the lighting and heating working in the house, to enable her to study, and the family to live. The money was not used for luxuries.
I do not have time to go into other human stories, but I want to touch on the point that the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) made, when he talked about handouts with no strings attached. We need to think about free school meals, EMA and bursaries as they are now as an investment in young people, who will be the taxpayers of the future, paying for the pensions of the future. If we do not invest in them during the two years in question, and get them over the hurdles into further and higher education and better jobs, and skill up our work force, we shall be letting down our country and future taxpayers. About 22% of Hackney residents are under 16 and a third of them are under 24, so I appreciate the important and valuable contribution that young people make. It is a significant issue.
Overall, the Government profess to be in favour of choice. They promote free schools and talk about social mobility. In Hackney we have embraced that diversity of provision, but it is a false choice. If free school meals cost about £450 a year, and are provided in some settings, but not others, how will young people make their choices? Some will be forced to make a choice not, as the hon. Member for North Thanet said, for the right reasons, but simply on financial grounds.
Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)
I shall share my time, if I may, with my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi), so I shall be brief and make two points.
First, I want to address the argument put by the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon)—that if the concession is made we should link it to poorer pupils’ good attendance at college, and their effort. I wonder why he wants to draw that contract so narrowly. It may be, of course, that he is trying to mobilise support on his side, and, if that is so, good luck to him. However, if we believe that we should move to a society where duties beget rights, rather than one where rights may occasionally be accompanied by duties, should taxpayers not put the same requirement on all pupils at school or college? Should we not expect them all, if they turn up with a huge subsidy from us, to do their hard work and attend well, in the hope that they succeed well? There should not be a stigmatising effect, with that contract applying only to poor pupils.
My other point is addressed directly to the Minister, who is very busy—radically changing his speech, I hope. As we have said, many of us represent seats where there are many pupils from poorer backgrounds. Because of the provision of post-16 education, they do not have a choice to go to a sixth form or sixth-form college. They choose whether to continue in education, and, maybe, to become hungry.
I have a question for the Minister. We know he has his answer all written out for him, and we know that he will read it, despite what has been said today. My plea is that he should report this debate to his colleagues and tell them that he finds it intolerable to defend a situation in which some poorer pupils will be hungry during their college days, while they are trying to get further qualifications—as my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) said, to lift their skills, get better jobs and pay our pensions as a result.
It is pretty scandalous that Foodbank estimates that by the next election it will be feeding 500,000 families who would otherwise be hungry. There is a new situation. Something strange and terrible is happening in our society, which we have yet to get to grips with. In one small way the Minister could do that, as a result of the debate, and I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) for initiating it. The Minister could say that he does not want again to defend Government policy that means that some post-16 students are hungry because they are studying.
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
I was not here at the beginning of the debate, because the Select Committee on Justice sat at 9.15. I want to mention two things.
I was for 10 years a governor of a college of further education, so I have some understanding of some of the issues and challenges faced by the students and young people attending them. I am pleased that my constituency has both Bolton college and Bolton sixth-form college, so there are a high number of students there. As I said earlier, 1,300 young people in the college come from disadvantaged backgrounds and would benefit from free meals, and in the sixth-form college there are 1,272.
The situation in my constituency is similar to that in the constituency of the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales); many 16 to 18-year-olds go to a sixth-form college to complete their A-levels or further education. Not many schools cater for that. There are 300,000 people living in the Bolton unitary council area. The geographical area encompasses about 7 or 8 miles. Many students must travel at least 6 or 7 miles daily to attend college, often for vocational courses. Now they must additionally pay the cost of travel, and of course there is no money for free lunches. In many areas, many young people from disadvantaged backgrounds are suffering. I urge the Minister and the Government to think about the fact that £38 million to provide free meals for 102,000 students is not a lot of money in the scheme of things. Surely that is an amount that they could find to spend on young people.
The value and necessity of the nutrition from a good meal has already been spoken of. It is fundamental for young people. I urge the Minister to reconsider. I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) for giving me the chance to speak, as I have cut into his time. I also thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), and congratulate him on obtaining the debate.
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) on securing this important debate and on his excellent speech. Indeed, we have heard a number of excellent contributions, which I sincerely hope will have persuaded the Minister of the merits of ending this anomaly.
I am aware that this issue has been around for some time. An amendment to the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill in the previous Parliament, which was moved in the other place by the Liberal Democrat peer Baroness Sharp of Guildford, would have done what my right hon. Friend is calling for today. In the end, though, the noble Baroness was convinced to withdraw her amendment by my noble friend Lord Young of Norwood Green, who informed her that the issue was under review. That was back in November 2009, and the review was ongoing when the election was called. I assume that that work was superseded by the new Government’s plans, which culminated in scrapping not only EMA, but the planned roll-out of free school meals to all children living below the poverty line.
The Association of Colleges has recently launched its “No Free Lunch?” campaign, and it has been backed by the National Union of Students. The Association of School and College Leaders feels the same way, and Unison has been campaigning on this matter for some time now. The Children’s Society has also given its backing to the campaign and has tied it in with its “Fair and Square” campaign, which calls on the Government to ensure that all children in poverty, including those in poor working families, can get a free school meal from when they start school until they leave further education. That is something that we would be much closer to now had the Government not scrapped the planned extension of free school meals to households below the poverty line, which was due to begin in September 2010.
It is clear that the Minister’s colleagues on the Education Committee share the belief that this issue needs to be addressed. In their report, “Participation by 16-19 year olds in education and training”, they criticised the Government for their cuts to EMA and said:
“There is no logic in making free school meals available to 16-18 year olds in schools but not in colleges, and, while we recognise that the financial implications would make an early change of policy difficult, we recommend that parity of eligibility should be the medium to long-term aim.”
The Government have acknowledged that, but have not committed to doing anything about it, or even said that they would find it desirable to do so. Perhaps that could all change this morning when the Minister gets to his feet. I think that all Members present hope that he has some good news for us.
As we have heard, it is not as if the young people in colleges who were receiving free school meals in year 11 are automatically entitled to any money from the new bursary fund; the guidance for further education providers posted on the Department’s website last week makes that perfectly clear. The only groups that will be automatically entitled to financial assistance, which at £1,200 a year is only fractionally more than they would have got from EMA, are young people in care, care leavers, or those on income support and disabled young people getting employment and support allowance and disability living allowance. Young people who were previously receiving free school meals will be left to go cap in hand to their colleges for whatever is left from their bursary allocation.
Ian Swales
The hon. Lady is making a powerful case. Does she also agree that a postcode lottery is in operation? Some colleges in rural areas or in very large areas will have high travel costs, compared with inner city colleges, where travel costs are lower. Therefore, the amount of money that colleges have available for free meals will be variable, depending on the nature of their area.
Mrs Hodgson
I agree with the hon. Gentleman. Some colleges have to raise funds to help support some of the poorest children, who need money for travel and, if there is anything left, for food.
The Minister may remember that we faced each other in a similar debate in 2010—we do not often do that, so I remember it well. It was on EMA and was called by my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce), in partnership with my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy), whom we welcomed to the shadow education team a couple of weeks ago. In that debate, I spoke about the testimony of a number of young people who had attended a seminar that we had held in Parliament about how much EMA meant to them. Many said that the allowance barely covered their travel and lunch as it was.
A young man called Luke talked about students whom he knew who could not eat before or at college because their money did not go far enough. That is a point that is developed by a young carer quoted in a Barnado’s briefing for this morning’s debate. The young girl is studying four A-levels and dreams of becoming a barrister. She says:
“At college when I don’t eat I get really bored, I can’t focus and I feel faint or really tired.”
As participation rates increase, many more pupils will be in that position. Given what we know about the impact of hunger and poor diets on educational attainment, we can understand what will happen to their studies.
The Government need to do a lot more than just think about this matter. They need to go into colleges and find out for themselves just how many students are going hungry or having to eat cheap rubbish that is not good for them, and then think more about the merits of the argument that is being made today and that has been made by campaigners for the past few years.
If the end of EMA did not add impetus to this debate, the impending rise in the participation age surely does. Labour passed the Education and Skills Act 2008, which increased the minimum age at which young people in England can leave education—from next year, it will be at the end of the academic year in which they turn 17, and it will be up to their 18th birthday from 2015—and that is something that the current Government are committed to driving through.
As a result of those changes, young people will have to stay on full time from 2015 unless they are working for more than 20 hours a week or are on an apprenticeship, but those who choose to do so in a college will be at a distinct disadvantage. As we have heard from a number of hon. Members this morning, the vast majority of students who received free school meals in last year’s year 11 are now studying in non-school settings. According to the Association of Colleges, there are 103,000 such students in colleges, compared with 33,000 in sixth forms. The gulf will only grow wider, particularly given that young people who are eligible for free school meals are more likely to pursue courses in college rather than in sixth forms.
In their response to the Education Committee recommendations, which I cited earlier, the Government stated that they would review this anomaly, in conjunction with 16-to-19 financial support, as the rise in the participation age gets closer. Given that we are about 16 months away from the 2013 academic year and that the Department seems to operate in a chaotic manner under this Government, it is time that they got a move on.
There are issues with some 16-to-19 providers not having the kitchen capacity to prepare meals, which is an argument that the Secretary of State has used for not expanding eligibility. As the Minister will know from a press release that he put out while he was in opposition to try and rubbish the idea of improving nutritional standards in schools, which we were trying to do at the time, some school sites do not have the facilities to prepare meals. In those instances, they get meals brought in from other local schools, or they simply serve cold food. Having no kitchen is not an insurmountable challenge for schools in providing free meals, so I do not see why it would be for colleges. Indeed, the chief executive of the Association of Colleges told the Education Committee that all the members whom he had spoken to about this potential barrier had said
“if that provision was made they would make it available”.
In conclusion, the campaigners for free meal eligibility to be extended to children in non-school FE settings have been making a strong and logical case for a number of years now, but that case has become even stronger since the Government scrapped EMA. There is, of course, a cost associated with doing so. As we have heard, it is just under £40 million a year, according to the Association of Colleges. That is certainly a significant amount, but when we compare it to the amount that the Government cut from financial support for 16 to19-year-olds when they scrapped EMA, it is just 10%. The Government should look at the merits of investing money in free meals, rather than in other areas of expenditure.
I therefore hope that the Minister will now give an assurance to my right hon. Friends the Members for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough and for Birkenhead (Mr Field), as well as to others who have spoken this morning, that he will take on board their arguments and put this anomaly to bed, or explain why he thinks that it is fair that large numbers of young people between the ages of 16 and 18 will be at a significant disadvantage to their peers and possibly going hungry by the end of this Parliament.
The Minister of State, Department for Education (Mr Nick Gibb)
I begin by congratulating the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) on securing this important debate. He is a former and distinguished Education Secretary.
As right hon. and hon. Members will know, the origins of a school meals service can be traced back to the mid-19th century. Later in the 19th century and in the early 20th century, a number of provisions for both free and reduced-cost meals were introduced to tackle malnutrition in schoolchildren. During the war years, the school meals service was transformed in policy and scope to become a general service of mid-day dinners that was intended to benefit all children.
The Education Act 1944 placed local education authorities under a statutory duty to provide meals and milk to pupils at schools and county colleges that the authorities maintained. The details were set out in the Provision of Milk and Meals Regulations 1945, but only in relation to maintained schools. Those regulations also made provision for meals to be provided free of charge to pupils at maintained schools who met certain conditions.
The Education Act 1980 gave local authorities the power to provide meals free of charge to pupils at any school maintained by them whose parents were in receipt of supplementary benefit or family income supplement. The 1980 Act was repealed by the Education Act 1996, since when the list of qualifying benefits for free school meals has increased, to ensure that those children who most need free school meals are entitled to them. The current criteria for eligibility are where a child’s parents are on income support; income-based jobseeker’s allowance; an income-related employment and support allowance; support under the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999; the guarantee element of state pension credit; or child tax credit, but not working tax credit. The child’s parents must also have an annual income not exceeding £16,190. That has resulted in 19.2% of primary and nursery schoolchildren and 15.9% of secondary schoolchildren qualifying for free school meals.
The introduction of universal credit will simplify the benefits system and mean that we have to change the way that we determine eligibility for free school meals. We have yet to decide what the new criteria will be, but we want to make sure that they are simple and make free school meals available to those families on the lowest incomes.
It might be to desirable to extend free school meals further—for example, to all children. I understand the argument for doing so; I have seen that practice working well in Sweden, where all children receive a free school meal as part of what they receive at school, like the stationery, the heating and the building. The hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) mentioned Finland. However, extending free school meals, for example, to all pupils whose parents receive the new universal credit, in line with the proposal from the Children’s Society, would cost around £1.6 billion a year. To extend free school meals to all pupils of school age would cost around £2.9 billion a year.
Mr Field
The Minister is reading from his script what I feared he would read out. Will he give this gathering in Westminster Hall today an undertaking that when he goes back to his next ministerial meeting he will ask his colleagues if they are happy that he, as their colleague in the Government, should have to stand up and defend a situation where some pupils, because they happen to go to a college rather than a sixth form, may be hungry?
Mr Gibb
If the right hon. Gentleman will be patient, he will see that although I am reading from a prepared script, I have manuscript changes to that script that I made during the debate. I was listening very carefully to all the arguments that were made.
I will continue. The Further and Higher Education Act 1992 moved colleges from local authority control into a more independent further education sector. Current legislation—the Education Act 1996—continues to provide free school meals only to pupils at schools maintained by a local authority. As was mentioned, academies and free schools are required to comply with free school meal legislation via their funding agreement. This provision also extends to students attending school sixth forms, because they are covered by the definitions of “secondary education” and “school”. However, it does not extend to pupils at independent schools, or to pupils aged between 14 and 16 who study at a college instead of a school. Pupils who are registered at a school but who also attend college are still covered and their school must provide free school meals if they meet the eligibility criteria.
As the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough has pointed out, free meals do not apply to students at sixth-form or FE colleges. The different legal status and independence of sixth-form and FE colleges bring with them other benefits, which the institutions themselves do not want to lose. That does not mean that we believe that students studying at sixth-form and FE colleges are any different from those attending school sixth forms. I understand and have sympathy with the argument made by Members including the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge that vocational courses are more likely to be found in FE colleges than in school sixth forms. As the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) pointed out, we recognise the anomaly. It is an anomaly, whether or not we put the word in inverted commas, but it is not a new anomaly. Indeed, it is one that previous Governments have not address did—I have to say that it was not addressed by the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough when he was Education Secretary between 1997 and 2001.
Mr Gibb
No, as I am running out of time. As I was about to do, I acknowledge the honesty of the right hon. Gentleman’s hands-up confession.
The Association of Colleges is campaigning for the provision of free meals to be extended to all eligible FE students between 16 and 18. It estimates that it would cost £38 million to do so, although our own estimate is that it would cost significantly more than that. I sympathise with the arguments of my hon. Friends the Members for Harlow (Robert Halfon), for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) and for Redcar (Ian Swales), which they made well in their passionate contributions to the debate. Although the sums that I have just quoted may seem small compared with the overall education budget, in the current fiscal climate it would be genuinely difficult to increase spending by between £35 million and £70 million, however desirable it would be to extend free school meals to students at sixth-form and FE colleges. Of course, we keep the matter under review and I will discuss the arguments that have been made today with my ministerial colleagues. That is the commitment that I give to the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field).
In education, the absolute priority of this Government is to close the attainment gap between those from wealthy backgrounds and those from poorer backgrounds, and all our policies are funded with that one aim in mind, whether the policy is about reading, behaviour or tackling underperforming schools. Our priority is to devolve as much of the Department for Education budget to the front line as possible. That is why we have managed to maintain school budgets at flat cash per pupil, despite the very difficult spending review. In addition, schools receive the pupil premium, which is specifically designed to boost attainment—
Mr Gibb
I will finish this point and, if there is time, I will give way.
As I was saying, the pupil premium is specifically designed to boost the attainment of pupils aged under 16 from low-income families, and free school meals is the only per-pupil indicator of poverty that we can have. That amounts to some £625 million—
Mr Gibb
I understand that it is for schools; I will come on to the other point. That amounts to some £625 million in 2011-12, £1.25 billion in the following year, and it will rise to £2.5 billion by 2014-15. The right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough and the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge are right that no pupil premium applies to pupils aged between 16 and 19, but for students between 16 and 19 the disadvantage uplift—as it is called—and the additional learning support funding are the equivalent of the pupil premium.
The disadvantage uplift is intended to recognise that young people from disadvantaged backgrounds may need extra support to close the attainment gap. The measure is based on the index of multiple deprivation for those living in the 27% most deprived areas, with students from more deprived areas attracting higher rates. In addition, we increased funding for disadvantaged young people and for additional learning support by £150 million in 2011-12, and that total funding is now £750 million a year. But again I must say that to help to tackle the budget deficit, we have had to make some very difficult decisions.
In the remaining time, I just want to point out to the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge that annual bursaries of some £1,200, which have replaced education maintenance allowance, are being provided to the most vulnerable young people. Taking the example of John, the student at one of her local FE colleges whom she mentioned, if John is 17 and on income support, he qualifies for a bursary of £1,200 a year, which is actually more than he would have received under EMA. The most vulnerable young people, including people in care—
Undercover Policing
(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
It is a pleasure to hold this debate under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I am very grateful for the opportunity to raise the issue of the rules governing undercover police infiltrators and informers.
I am sure the House will agree that when it comes to the deployment of undercover police officers, transparency and accountability are of the utmost importance. In recent months, however, a number of cases have come to light that seem to expose serious abuses of any guidelines that we might reasonably assume inform what police officers working undercover can and cannot do. The cases raise important questions about whether such guidelines are ever enforced, whether individuals who breach them are properly held to account, and the extent to which infiltration of campaign groups is a legitimate, or even effective, tactic. Also, I have details of new allegations relating to the behaviour of one undercover officer that I believe require immediate investigation and raise questions about the convictions of two individuals.
Since at least the 1968 protests against the Vietnam war, police chiefs, backed by successive Governments, have used the tactic of infiltration to secure more reliable intelligence about political demonstrations than could be provided by informants. Undercover police officers pose as political activists over several years, to gather reliable intelligence and perhaps disrupt campaigners’ activities. In the early days, such officers were part of a super-secret unit within special branch, called the special demonstration squad; more recently they have been under a second unit, the national public order intelligence unit.
Up to nine undercover officers have been unmasked following the exposure of Mark Kennedy in late 2010. I will say more about his case later, but the officers include Bob Lambert, know by the alias Bob Robinson. That officer pretended to be a committed environmental and animal rights campaigner between 1984 and 1988. By the summer of 1987, he had successfully infiltrated the Animal Liberation Front, a group that operated through a tightly organised underground network of small cells of activists, making it difficult to penetrate. In October 2011, after he was exposed as an undercover officer, Bob Lambert admitted:
“In the 1980s I was deployed as an undercover Met special branch officer to identify and prosecute members of Animal Liberation Front who were then engaged in incendiary device and explosive device campaigns against targets in the vivisection, meat and fur trades.”
Lambert has also admitted that part of his mission was to identify and prosecute specific ALF activists:
“I succeeded in my task and that success included the arrest and imprisonment of Geoff Sheppard and Andrew Clarke.”
The men Lambert referred to were ALF activists who were found guilty of planting incendiary devices in two Debenhams stores. Allegations about exactly what kind of role Lambert might have played in their convictions have come to light only recently.
In July 1987, three branches of Debenhams, in Luton, Romford and Harrow, were targeted by the ALF in co-ordinated, simultaneous incendiary attacks, because the shops sold fur products. Sheppard and Clarke were tried and found guilty, but the culprit who planted the incendiary device in the Harrow store was never caught. Bob Lambert’s exposure as an undercover police officer has prompted Geoff Sheppard to speak out about the Harrow attack. He alleges that Lambert was the one who planted the third device and that he was involved in the ALF’s co-ordinated campaign. Sheppard has made a statement, which I have seen, in which he says:
“Obviously I was not there when he targeted that store because we all headed off in our separate directions but I was lying in bed that night, and the news came over on the World Service that three Debenhams stores had had arson attacks on them and that included the Harrow store as well. So obviously I straightaway knew that Bob had carried out his part of the plan. There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Bob Lambert placed the incendiary device at the Debenhams store in Harrow. I specifically remember him giving an explanation to me about how he had been able to place one of the devices in that store, but how he had not been able to place the second device.”
In the same interview, Sheppard says that two months after the three Debenhams stores were set on fire, he and another person were in his flat making four more fire bombs when they were raided by police. Sheppard alleges that the intelligence for the raid was so precise that it is now obvious that it “came from Bob Lambert”. Lambert knew that the pair were going to be there making another set of incendiary devices.
Sheppard was jailed for four years and four months, and Clarke for more than three years. For Lambert, it was a case of job done—in fact, so well had he manipulated the situation that he even visited Sheppard in prison, to give him support before disappearing abroad. Until recently Sheppard had no reason whatever to suspect the man he knew as Bob Robinson—he assumed that Robinson had got away with it, fled the country and built a new life.
It seems that planting the third incendiary device might have been a move designed to bolster Lambert’s credibility and reinforce the impression of a genuine and dedicated activist. He successfully went on to gain the precise intelligence that led to the arrest of Sheppard and Clarke, without anyone suspecting that the tip-off came from him, but is that really the way we want our police officers to behave?
The case raises new questions about the rules governing undercover police infiltrators and informers, particularly when it comes to those officers committing a crime—an area in which the law is especially grey. Police chiefs can authorise undercover officers to participate in criminal acts to gain the trust of the groups they are trying to infiltrate and, in theory, to detect or prevent a more serious crime, but usually they are not allowed to be involved in planning or instigating the crime. As I understand it, the specific law on that is the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, and that before its enactment, at the time of the Debenhams attacks, the rules were vague. They have not so far been made public.
If Sheppard’s allegations are true, someone must have authorised Lambert to plant incendiary devices at the Harrow store, and presumably that same person may also have given the officer guidance on just how far he needed to go to establish his credibility with the ALF. We simply do not know, and in the absence of any proper framework or rules, the task of holding Lambert to account is very difficult. Even if strict protocols are in place to try to control the actions of undercover officers, who decides what the protocols say, and how can we hold those people to account, given the secrecy that surrounds such activities?
Mark Reckless
Is not an alternative explanation that there were no protocols in place and that decisions were taken at the discretion of this officer, who was not properly controlled? To the extent that there were protocols, is it not clear that the guidance for undercover officers was coming from the Association of Chief Police Officers, which is an entirely unaccountable organisation?
Caroline Lucas
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. The truth is that we simply do not know, and that is the problem. We need clarity, which is what I hope the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice can help us with later.
There is no doubt in my mind that anyone planting an incendiary device in a department store is guilty of a very serious crime and should have charges brought against them. That means absolutely anyone, including, if the evidence is there, Bob Lambert, or, indeed, the people who were supervising him.
Ironically, as we have seen, the use of undercover police infiltrators can make it much more difficult to secure successful convictions. Three Court of Appeal judges have overturned the convictions of 20 environmental protestors, ruling that crucial evidence recorded by an undercover officer, Mark Kennedy, operating under the false name of Mark Stone, was withheld from the original trial. The judges said that they had seen evidence that appeared to show that Kennedy was
“involved in activities that went further than the authorisation he was given”,
and that he was “arguably, an agent provocateur.” The latest allegations concerning Bob Lambert and the planting of incendiary devices prompt us to ask: has another undercover police officer crossed the line into acting as an agent provocateur, and how many other police spies have been encouraging protestors to commit crimes?
Mark Kennedy’s exposure in 2010 has shone a light on how officers behave when they go undercover, and especially on the rules governing whether they are permitted to form intimate relationships with those on whom they are spying. Jon Murphy, Chief Constable of Merseyside and the police chiefs’ spokesman on the issue, claims that that is “grossly unprofessional” and “never acceptable”, yet one undercover police officer, Pete Black, claims that superiors knew officers had developed sexual relationships with protestors to give credibility to their cover stories and help gather evidence.
Eight women who say that they were duped into forming long-term loving relationships with undercover policemen have started a legal action against the police. They have a copy of a letter from a Metropolitan police solicitor that asserts that the forming of personal and other relationships by a “covert human intelligence source” to obtain information is permitted and lawful under RIPA, so either rogue undercover officers have been breaking the rules set by senior officers, or senior officers have misled the public by saying that such relationships are forbidden. We need to know what the truth is, and we need any rules of engagement to be published and open to public and parliamentary scrutiny or challenge.
The eight women allege that the men’s actions constitute a breach of articles 3 and 8 of the European convention on human rights. Article 3 asserts that no one shall be subject to inhuman or degrading treatment, and article 8 grants respect for private and family life, including the right to form relationships without unjustified interference by the state. The women go on to allege that the actions amount to common law tortious acts of deceit, misfeasance in public office and assault.
Bob Lambert is one of the five men named in the legal action, as is Mark Kennedy. The Guardian has also reported that Bob Lambert secretly fathered a child with a political campaigner whom he had been sent to spy on, and later disappeared completely from the life of the child, concealing his true identity from the child’s mother for many years. Lambert has admitted having had a long-term relationship with a second woman to bolster his credibility as a committed campaigner, and he subsequently went on to head the special demonstration squad and mentor other undercover officers who formed deceitful relationships with women.
The police authorities have made virtually no attempt to hold those or other men to account, or to examine whether they have broken any rules on relationships when undercover. The solicitors instructed by the Metropolitan police have taken a totally obstructive approach to the litigation, threatening to strike out the claims as having no foundation. Furthermore, police solicitors argue that cases can be heard only by the investigatory powers tribunal, in secret—a move that would prevent the women, whose privacy was invaded in the most intrusive manner imaginable, from hearing the evidence, such as the extent to which intimate moments were reported back to police chiefs. It seems that the police do not want anyone to be able to challenge their version of events or to scrutinise their actions. To paraphrase one of the women involved, it is incredible that in most circumstances the police need permission to search someone’s house, but if they want to send in an agent who may sleep and live with activists in their homes, that can happen without any apparent oversight.
The rules governing undercover police infiltrators and informers are also remarkably deficient when it comes to giving false evidence in court to protect a secret identity. For example, Jim Boyling, who was exposed last year for infiltrating groups such as Reclaim the Streets using the pseudonym Jim Sutton, concealed his true identity from a court when he was prosecuted alongside a group of protestors for occupying a Government building during a demonstration. It is alleged that from the moment Boyling was arrested, he gave a false name and occupation, maintaining this fiction throughout the entire prosecution, even when he gave evidence to barristers under oath.
Boyling was reported to have been present at sensitive discussions between other activists and their lawyers to decide how they would defend themselves in court, undermining the fundamental right of the activists to hold legally protected consultations with a lawyer and illicitly obtaining details of private discussions. A lawyer representing activists who were charged alongside Jim Boyling has noted:
“This case raises the most fundamental constitutional issues about the limits of acceptable policing, the sanctity of lawyer-client confidentiality, and the integrity of the criminal justice system. At first sight, it seems that the police have wildly overstepped all recognised boundaries.”
Yet Boyling’s actions may well have been authorised. Pete Black, who worked with Boyling in the same covert unit penetrating political campaigns, said that the case was not unique and that, from time to time, prosecutions were allowed to go ahead to build up credibility with the activists being infiltrated.
The Metropolitan commissioner, Bernard Hogan-Howe, has defended undercover officers’ use of fake identities in court, claiming that there is no specific law that forbids it. However, I echo the concerns of Lord Macdonald, the former Director of Public Prosecutions, who said that Hogan-Howe’s defence was “stunning and worrying”. He commented that
“at the very least, the senior officers who are sending these undercover PCs into court to give evidence in this way are putting them at serious risk of straying into perjury.”
Bob Lambert, Mark Kennedy and Jim Boyling, as well as two other officers named in current legal actions against the police, John Barker and Mark Cassidy, have all crossed a line. Similarly, other undercover police officers may well have crossed such a line. The assumption is that they have been authorised and instructed to do so, or at least, if that is not specifically the case, that a blind eye has been turned to some of their actions.
Activists who have been infiltrated have called for one overarching, full public inquiry to examine what has gone on. Lord Macdonald has also called for such an inquiry to consider how we should control undercover operations, but the Government have ignored calls to set one up. Instead, the authorities have set up 12 different inquiries since January 2011, each held in secret and looking at only one small aspect of an undercover operation. Those inquiries have not been particularly thorough and have not resulted in follow-up action. For example, the Director of Public Prosecutions, Keir Starmer QC, ordered an investigation and report on allegations that the Crown Prosecution Service suppressed vital evidence in the case of the Ratcliffe-on-Soar environmental protestors. A key criticism of the CPS in that report is of the
“failures, over many months and at more than one level, by the police and the CPS.”
Nick Paul, the senior CPS lawyer who specialises in cases involving police misconduct, was not even interviewed as part of the investigation, and senior CPS staff have evaded disciplinary action. The CPS shows an ongoing reluctance to investigate past possible miscarriages of justice, and Keir Starmer is among those resisting calls for a more far-reaching inquiry.
The new allegations that I have raised today make the case for a public inquiry even more compelling. So many questions remain unanswered, including whether Bob Lambert planted the third incendiary device and, if he did, who authorised him to do so and why. More widely, the public have a right to know why money is being spent on infiltrating campaign groups, with no apparent external oversight of the decision to infiltrate or of whether the methods used are necessary or proportionate. Why are the rules on such practices open to such abuse? Why are high-ranking police officers and, presumably, politicians sanctioning operations that put police officers at risk and undermine basic human rights?
We need to have faith that police officers are beyond reproach, that robust procedures are in place to deal with any transgressions and that those making decisions about the deployment of police officers are accountable and subject to proper scrutiny. I hope the Minister will take this opportunity to review the various concerns I have raised, and that he can tell us that the Government will agree to set up a far-reaching public inquiry into undercover police infiltrators and informers, which will look back over past practices as well as look forward.
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
May I say what a surprise, but nevertheless what a great pleasure, it is to see you in the Chair, Mr Davies? I congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) on securing the debate. I am grateful to her for raising some of these issues, because it gives me an opportunity to set out the Government’s response. I recognise that the issues she has raised are serious.
Undercover operations are sometimes necessary to protect the public and to prevent or detect crime. We should commend the difficult and often dangerous job performed by undercover officers. However, in the light of recent cases and concerns, including those raised by the hon. Lady, it is right to ask two principal questions that we must be able to answer with confidence. First, is there a system for ensuring that the use of police undercover deployment is consistent with human rights legislation, particularly the right to privacy and the right to a fair trial? Secondly, is the system working sufficiently well for the particular type of undercover deployment that has led to concerns, or do we need to take action to improve it and ensure that it provides the required assurance?
Before I consider those two fundamental questions, it is important to point out that the deployment of Bob Lambert, a case raised by the hon. Lady, took place in the 1990s, before the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000—or RIPA, as it is known—was implemented. RIPA is the legislative framework that enables police and other public authorities using covert human intelligence sources, such as undercover officers, to ensure that they act in compliance with their duties under the Human Rights Act. A “covert human intelligence source” is the label used by the legislation to describe anyone who establishes or maintains a relationship for a covert purpose. That applies to a member of the public who comes forward to volunteer information about someone and who is asked by a public authority to find out more. It applies to a public authority test purchaser who engages the confidence of a supplier to buy illicit goods. It also applies to a member of a law enforcement agency who goes undercover to infiltrate and to pass intelligence back to that agency about an organisation planning disruption or criminal acts.
Mark Reckless
Will the Minister clarify whether RIPA also applies to ACPO’s responsibility for an undercover officer and its status as a private company? Moreover, did ACPO have any involvement in the Lambert case, or did it become involved only in later operations?
Nick Herbert
I will clarify that point later, but my understanding is that the accountability lies with chief constables, not ACPO. I am aware of and share my hon. Friend’s concern about ACPO and its status. I hope and believe that it will be addressed, but if there is anything further to say about the matter, I will write to him.
Mark Reckless
I am thinking in particular of the environmental protests at Ratcliffe-on-Soar, where it emerged that ACPO was responsible for the management of undercover officers. I am delighted that, since then, Ministers have ensured the transfer of the powers involved to the Metropolitan police.
Nick Herbert
My hon. Friend is correct about the responsible unit, and that important change has enhanced accountability.
RIPA applies to each of the instances that I have mentioned, because the true nature of the relationship, which involves reporting back covertly to a public authority what has been said or done, is hidden from the other person or people being talked to. In every case, RIPA requires that authorisation is given only if it is necessary and proportionate. RIPA sets out who can make a decision to deploy a covert source and for what purpose the deployment might be made. RIPA codes of practice provide practical guidance on how best to apply the regulatory framework and how to observe the human rights principles behind authorisations. External oversight and inspection are provided by the chief surveillance commissioner, and independent right of redress is provided by an investigatory tribunal for anyone who believes that they have been treated unlawfully.
That is the system, which was not in place when Lambert was deployed, but does it work? The published annual reports of the chief surveillance commissioner indicate that, in the main, it does, but that has not always been the case. That was shown graphically by the independent report produced by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary earlier this year on the deployment of undercover police officer Mark Kennedy. It showed that there had been failings in the application of the existing system and safeguards, but it went further by making a number of recommendations for ACPO to strengthen both internal review and external quality assurance of undercover officers deployed against domestic extremism. It also invited the Home Secretary to consider the arrangements for authorising the undercover police operations that present the most significant risks of intrusion. In particular, it proposed raising the internal level of police authorisations for the long-term deployments of undercover police officers under RIPA, and establishing independent, external prior approval by the chief surveillance commissioner for long-term deployments of undercover police officers.
The Home Secretary welcomed the HMIC report, and since its publication the Home Office has been working with the inspectorate, ACPO, the chief surveillance commissioner and others on how best to implement its recommendations.
Caroline Lucas
I am grateful to the Minister for setting out the situation as he sees it, but does RIPA allow undercover police to have sexual relationships with those they are trying to infiltrate? That is one of the points at issue: some say that it does and some say that it does not.
Nick Herbert
I will try to respond to the hon. Lady’s question before the end of my speech.
One factor is how we target the type of deployment that causes concern, without imposing an unnecessary or burdensome bureaucracy across a much wider field where the regime may be said to be working as Parliament intended. We need to ensure that we do not deter members of the public from coming forward to help the police in what can be difficult work. We also need to make sure that officers charged with sensitive, intrusive and dangerous policing in the community are given the support and protection they require. Above all, we need to avoid the mistakes identified in the HMIC report being made again. Our response, when we make it, will have that uppermost in mind.
On the hon. Lady’s call for a public inquiry, the independent HMIC review looked at the broad issues raised by the Kennedy case, and made clear recommendations as to how the system should be strengthened—a system that was not, in any case, in place when Lambert was deployed. We are considering our precise response to those recommendations. I do not think that it is necessary to conduct a public inquiry.
The hon. Lady raised a number of specific issues, one of which was whether RIPA can be used to authorise a covert human intelligence source to break the law. In a very limited range of circumstances, an authorisation under RIPA part II may render lawful conduct that would otherwise be criminal, if it is incidental to any conduct falling within the Act that the source is authorised to undertake. That depends, however, on the circumstances of each individual case, and consideration should always be given to seeking advice from the legal adviser of the relevant public authority when such activity is contemplated. A covert human intelligence source who acts beyond the limits recognised by the law will be at risk of prosecution, and the need to protect the covert human intelligence source cannot alter that principle.
The RIPA statutory guidance does not explicitly cover the matter of sexual relationships, but it does make it clear that close management and control should be exercised by the undercover officer’s management team. That will be a relevant factor. The absence of such management gave rise to concern in the Kennedy case.
Caroline Lucas
Does the Minister agree that that sort of fudged, grey area means that for women who have had such an experience, and for women and, indeed, men who might have such an experience in the future, this is incredibly unsatisfactory? We simply do not have clear guidelines on whether the action and going that far are legitimate, and that undermines confidence in the system. The Minister has referred to other inquiries that have been conducted, but what has not been conducted is a public, overarching inquiry to consider all the relevant areas.
Moreover, the Minister’s response to the case of Bob Lambert is extraordinarily complacent. Yes, RIPA was not in place at that point, so there can be no criticism that its guidance was not followed, but what is the Minister going to do now, given that the issue is in the public domain and that there could have been serious miscarriages of justice? How will he follow up on that case in particular?
Nick Herbert
I am happy to pursue the matter further with the hon. Lady, if she likes, but I am not persuaded that it would be appropriate to issue specific statutory guidance under RIPA about sexual relationships. What matters is that there is a general structure and system of proper oversight and control, rather than specific directions on behaviour that may or may not be permitted. Moreover, to ban such actions would provide a ready-made test for the targeted criminal group to find out whether an undercover officer was deployed among them. Specifically forbidding the action would put the issue in the public domain and such groups would know that it could be tested.
The Government are certainly not complacent about the Lambert case. We were keen for an independent, wider review of the deployment of undercover officers by HMIC, which is now independent of the Government and reports to Parliament. We are satisfied that its recommendations will further strengthen the proper system of safeguards for the deployment of undercover officers that did not operate when Lambert was deployed.
Sustainable Communities
(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
May I say how pleased I am to have secured the debate and what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Weir? As you know, the purpose of the debate is to advance the cause for localism still further, which is something the coalition Government are clearly very committed to doing during their period in office.
Of course, the principle of localism is simply that decisions should be taken in the areas that are affected, rather than outside. It is clear from a raft of Government statements—quite apart from the coalition agreement—that there is a commitment variously to turn the world, or at least the Government, upside down, so that local communities can drive decision making. That principle is absolutely correct and should be driven through all Departments, not just the one responding today.
The purpose of the debate is also to advance the cause for sustainable communities, or the sustainability of those communities, particularly in terms of their economic and environmental sustainability. I know that those who wish to speak in the debate will address those points, particularly perhaps in relation to their area.
I take this opportunity to issue a warm welcome to the Minister. He has a clear philosophical commitment to localism and has made much admired statements on the issue so far. We were perhaps on the opposite side of the fence when the first draft of the national planning policy framework came out; there were certainly some robust exchanges. I think that he knew I was taking a critical line towards him and his approach in the Government on the issue. I congratulate him on demonstrating clearly both his capacity and that of the Government genuinely to consult, listen and respond to the issues that were raised. I congratulate him on the outcome of that particular process; his approach was much appreciated.
I will primarily concentrate on the Sustainable Communities Act 2007 and the Sustainable Communities Act 2007 (Amendment) Act 2010. It is worth congratulating the midwives who brought through those measures, as they are occasionally forgotten. I would particularly like to mention the first version of the legislation. My colleague Sue Doughty, the former MP for Guildford, was the first to propose the provisions in the 2001 parliamentary Session. Of course, that was very ably taken up by the hon. Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd)—now the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office—with the support of David Drew and Julia Goldsworthy. However, it is the hon. Gentleman’s private Member’s Bill that deserves honourable mention, as that is why we are here today. Following its implementation, the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), now the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, introduced the amendment Act in 2010.
As the Minister knows, I have a number of questions to which I would very much appreciate him responding. The first and perhaps most important question, which I have raised on the Floor of the House and in other ways—he is well aware I am going to ask it today—is about the much awaited and anticipated publication of the regulations underpinning the Acts. Following the consultation that the Minister launched in March last year, which was completed in June, there has probably been much discussion and consideration behind the scenes about how the regulations will be introduced.
I have had some assurance that the regulations will be brought forward and that they will reflect the need for local authorities and the Secretary of State to show evidence that they are attempting to reach an agreement rather than simply addressing the issues behind closed doors and coming out with results. It is important to address transparency and to ensure that there is clear evidence of the attempt to try to reach agreement.
There is a limit on the time within which local communities and their supporting local authorities can submit bids to the selector, which is currently the Local Government Association. We hope that that might be drawn a little wider, perhaps to include representatives from parish town councils through the National Association of Local Councils, and Local Works, which is a campaign body supported by a large number of non-governmental organisations and which should be congratulated on its contribution to this important measure. Perhaps it could be involved in the selector process as well.
I very much hope that the Minister will respond to that point later. Given that we have some time for the debate, rather than me waiting in anticipation until the 80th or 90th minute to know what the answer to my question is, the Minister may wish to take the opportunity to intervene now.
The Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Greg Clark)
Obviously the constraints of the debate mean that I speak at the very end, but given the interest in the topic I can tell my hon. Friend and hon. Members that I have, indeed, today signed the regulations, which will come into force before the summer recess. Each of the points that my hon. Friend has raised will find expression in what I have to say later. He knows that I have been a long-term enthusiast for the measures, and I will obviously set out in more detail the particular responses when I speak later.
Andrew George
I thank the Minister for that intervention. We certainly look forward to his response and to his fleshing out more precisely how the issues will be addressed in the regulations.
As the Minister knows, because I have given him a note in advance, I would also like to probe just how far we can take the matter. I am very ambitious to push localism as hard and fast as we possibly can, within reason. As someone who must declare an interest as chairman of the Grocery Market Action Group, there is one initiative that I have always been very keen to advance. The group is comprised of NGOs, including the National Farmers Union, Friends of the Earth, ActionAid and others, who have been submitting evidence to the Competition Commission’s inquiry into both the practices and role of supermarkets in planning and how they behave within the grocery supply chain. I have taken a great interest in that issue.
The Minister will be aware of one matter that I have always been greatly concerned about. Even after we have effectively addressed the issues of town centre first, needs test or other methods, how can we at least ensure that where communities believe an out-of-town supermarket might have a detrimental impact on a town centre, the planning process can properly scrutinise that and reflect on it? When supermarkets are built and developed, how do we ensure that they do not simply exert an unfair squeeze—a bit like a python—on that town centre? One way that is done, almost with the collusion of Government, is through the business rating system, which never properly reflects the massive advantage for out-of-town supermarkets of free car parking spaces, which enable them to inflict unfair competition—certainly a very uneven playing field—on town centres. I therefore support the case for a supplementary business rate that could be hypothecated to benefit town centres, because the rating system does not properly reflect the impact of such unfair competition.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
In recent days in Northern Ireland, the Finance Minister introduced a small business rate relief that is designed to take a similar line to the one advocated by the hon. Gentleman. Does he agree that the measure is needed right across the United Kingdom so that small, indigenous city centre traders can see that there is some prospect of the level playing field to which he just alluded? Trade has been going to the edge of town and out of town almost relentlessly over the past 20 years.
Andrew George
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I congratulate Northern Ireland on a welcome initiative that addresses the problem that I have described. The coalition Government are providing business rate relief to in-town shops and stores. That is clearly welcome, particularly when it benefits smaller, independent stores.
I have a lot of evidence to show that the business rating system does not properly reflect the commercial value of the availability of free parking in out-of-town retail sites. It is right that local communities are encouraged to introduce proposals with the support of their local authorities. Such income—for example, by providing free first-hour or discounted parking for loyal town centre shoppers—would relieve some pressure. In many town centres, certainly in my part of the world, parking charges, which local authorities say they levy to meet the costs of running car parks, have increased significantly.
Secondary, if not primary, legislation will be required. None the less, dialogue between local communities, their supporting local authorities, the selector and the Secretary of State should be encouraged, and a cap lifted on initiatives that local communities should be encouraged to advance. Under a previous round, Exeter made a proposal that was rejected on the grounds that it was beyond the remit of the scheme. However, I urge the Government to encourage that type of initiative.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
In my constituency supermarkets have developed in at least two towns, and the local authority demanded huge investment in transport infrastructure, which has completely ruined the town centres and is massively damaging. Far better than insisting on making supermarkets pay for something is to have the money invested in a way that genuinely benefits town centre traders. An element of free parking is a terrific idea, as my hon. Friend says, and I make this intervention to support him.
Andrew George
I am very grateful. The New Economics Foundation report on ghost towns has been a persistent theme and originally provided the stimulus for the 2007 Act. The impact of development, commercial pressures, planning restrictions and the business rating system, which seems to advantage out-of-town retail, was creating and still creates in many parts of the country—including mine—relative ghost towns. I am sure that many right hon. and hon. Members can identify such areas in their own constituencies and wish to resist them.
It is worth moving away from the conceptual to the practical and to look at ways the 2007 Act can enable local communities to introduce initiatives. I thought to list the kinds of scheme that I hope local communities will feel encouraged to propose for their areas. It is not a restrictive list, but simply a stimulus for other people’s creativity. It includes proposals to require full planning permission before any facility, such as a shop or a pub, is demolished; empower licensing authorities to decide and to set a cap on the number of bookmakers premises, for example, that are allowed to open up in a particular neighbourhood, town or local parade; introduce automatic statutory allotment status for appropriate sites after an agreed period, which, because of the difficulties of managing the limitation on allotments, should apply to both local authority and privately owned sites; create a mechanism, either through legislation or a framework, that legally binds energy suppliers and generators to partner local authorities, or other local partners, to accelerate community-wide renewable energy programmes; establish local appeal boards to determine planning appeals on minor applications; and place a tax on the purchase of plastic bags by retailers to reduce local waste and improve the community’s environment.
I have long argued that we should change the use-class system to differentiate between residential properties and properties that are used only on occasion—properties that are in non-permanent residential use or, in other words, second homes. If it were possible to have a byelaw in one planning locality that enabled such a distinction to be made, that local authority might wish to put a cap on the number of second homes in their area. Because of the impact that that has on the sustainability of communities in areas such as my constituency, there is a strong argument to support such a measure.
The Minister has heard that I am looking in the regulations for things that strengthen, rather than weaken, the 2007 Act, and therefore emphasise transparency and the evidence that the Secretary of State, through the selector, is engaged and trying hard to reach agreement. We need evidence of that. I hope the Minister will say that a time limit will be put on the period within which the Secretary of State has to respond to such proposals. Obviously, there must a commitment to transparency.
Engaging with the National Association of Local Councils and putting parish and town councils in the centre place, where they should be, follows the logic of the Government’s rhetoric. If we are turning the world and the Government upside down, we are saying that, because parish and town councils are closest to the people—more accessible to people on the ground, in their street and in their village, and so on—they are the highest tier of government. I hope that that perception will be reflected in their being given, as far as possible within the sustainable communities concept, enhanced status and access and a role to play. I hope that Local Works will be encouraged to take that role, as well.
I mentioned retail and parking space, and although I do not wish to detain the House too long, I shall expand on that a little, using examples from my area. The impact of out-of-town supermarkets clearly is having a hollowing-out effect on the town centres of Helston and Penzance in my West Cornwall and Isles of Scilly constituency. I recently received a letter from Jason Crow, one of my constituents—I have corresponded with the Minister about it, as well—specifically about Helston, which has four superstores around it, all of which have free parking, at a time when Cornwall council is significantly increasing short-term and long-term parking charges in the town. Mr Crow says that:
“it is as if the shop owners are being deliberately driven out.”
Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a dilemma? Although I agree with him on supporting shop owners and keeping them afloat in such areas, does he agree that, given the option, shoppers would sometimes prefer to go to a supermarket? Should our interest be concentrated on the shopper or the shopkeeper?
Andrew George
We should consider the sustainability of the community as well as the convenience of the shopper. Yes, people make their own decision, of their own free will, about which shop to go to and in which location they shop, but a clear impediment to and discouragement of people using town centres is the difficulty and expense of getting into them. That needs to be addressed. It is so much easier to drive into a whacking great car park in an out-of-town retail centre that people say, “I only want to get a few things. We’ll go in there, otherwise I’ll be hours trying to get something from town.” People’s choice about where to shop is not a result of the product or poor service in the town centre; it is a simple matter of having an uneven and unfair playing field. Perhaps there is something that the community and the Government can do to level that playing field, and that is all I am arguing for. Other than that, the town centres are competing in the same commercial space in the same way and one has to take one’s hat off to the supermarkets, because they do a good job at promoting themselves and advancing their cause.
Mr Crow continues:
“I know some would argue it’s retail evolution, with the superstores’ growth grabbing more and more local trade, but we’re also dangerously close in my view to losing the few individual specialist shops remaining, which provide diversity and bring in the tourism.”
That is true in my part of the world, as well. Another of my constituents, Mr Don Briggs, has compared in-town and out-of-town rating. To quote one example of many, he checked the Tesco valuations in Penzance and found that the zone A rate for the Tesco Express, which in the centre of town, is £550 per square metre, but the main rate for the our-of-town Tesco superstore is £210 per square metre. He has compared figures across Cornwall and finds that the story in Penzance is repeated time and again. We end up with an unfair difference—an uneven playing field—between in-town and out-of-town stores. We should address that.
I know that the Minister will say that it is difficult to advance the case today—he is not going to collapse and say, “Let’s go and achieve this as quickly as possible.” However, I believe it has the support of many Members—not all, I acknowledge—in all the parties across Parliament. This is not a party political issue, and it concerns many right hon. and hon. Members. I hope that the Minister will at least keep the door open to advancing the case, so that we can explore ways of evening things out. Finally—I am sorry to have detained hon. Members for so long—I look forward to seeing the regulations, when they are published, and to further promoting sustainable communities.
Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab)
I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this important debate, and I congratulate the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) on securing it. I agree with his shopping list.
I regard this as a local issue. I served as a local councillor in Ealing for nearly 28 years, so I will be in a better position if I mention some local examples—that is where the future lies in respect of how the changes should come about—and reflect on them.
I have been an enthusiastic supporter of the Sustainable Communities Act 2007 during my time in Parliament and a life-long supporter of the principle of bottom-up political engagement by local communities. Community engagement by Members of Parliament is a critical part of building sustainable communities and is central to everything that I try to do in my constituency. I am particularly proud of the active participation of so many of my constituents and local community organisations in the local community and public affairs.
During the riots of last summer, law-abiding Southall residents protected their places of worship and businesses against lawless thugs, when police resources were stretched to the limit. In Hanwell, the local traders’ association has joined the council-backed social enterprise—Accession—to open a community shop that is providing real work experience in a busy retail environment for adults with learning difficulties. Active citizens are the lifeblood of our country and our communities. The 2007 Act provides a groundbreaking mechanism for local people working together to demand that Government remove barriers to help solve problems at the grass roots. Bottom-up solutions are always much better and potentially more successful than Whitehall, top-down diktats.
Sustainable communities require legal powers, a joined-up approach and financial resources from the Government. I should like to highlight a problem, referred to in the media as “beds in sheds”, that illustrates such needs. The problem of illegal garden outbuildings being used for housing is significant in my constituency of Ealing, Southall and in other constituencies. Many of the outbuildings are poorly constructed, have poor or no utility provision and are dangerous to the occupants. The need to tackle such abuse of vulnerable people by rogue landlords is urgent, but the work is particularly challenging because so many agencies are involved: the council, the police, the fire brigade and the UK Border Agency. They are all trying to resolve the problem, each with their own financial and organisational resources.
Ealing council has allocated £250,000 to strengthening its planning enforcement team and is working with all other agencies to resolve the problem. The lack of legal powers for council enforcement officers to enter such properties without notice is, however, hampering any initiatives, so financial resources are not being used to best effect. The lack of such powers means that rogue landlords are being given 24 hours’ notice of an inspection by local authority enforcement officers and they obviously use that tip-off to remove any evidence of human habitation in outbuildings.
Under the law, if a planning breach is detected and a notice served but the landlord then rectifies the breach, the council cannot prosecute that individual. Even if the council gets a case to court, the fines are so low that they do not act as a deterrent to rogue landlords—they make much more from extortionate rents in a couple of months than paying the fine costs them, so the financial risk is worth taking.
The Government have belatedly given Ealing council and other councils that are tackling such problems necessary but insufficient financial resources and extra legal powers, and a Total Place, multi-agency approach is required to get a proper grip. This is an example of a local solution, on the ground, that could improve many people’s lives, and it is being demanded by my constituents. Localism can work, but it needs resources, a multi-agency approach and legal powers.
I welcome the Government’s commitment to the principles of the 2007 Act and of localism, but I reiterate that devolving power to local communities needs to be accompanied by sufficient resources and a lack of bureaucracy. The delays in the Government responding to previous community proposals under the 2007 Act and the delay in enacting the regulations under the Sustainable Communities Act 2007 (Amendment) Act 2010 diminish ordinary people’s engagement in improving their communities. That cannot be allowed to happen, and I hope that the application of pressure through this debate will result in the Minister moving things forward rapidly.
Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Weir, and fantastic to speak in the debate. Thank you for calling me.
A common theme in our debate on sustainable communities appears to be the old Britain. I am surrounded by my hon. Friends the Members for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) and for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), and my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) in west Cornwall introduced the debate, so as a representative of Cumbria I would like to speak together with them for the Brythonic peoples of Britain.
There is something a little bizarre about the notion of the sustainable community, which is a horrible combination of double jargon. The very word “sustainable” drags in six different directions. When we talk about sustainable growth, we seem to be talking about environmental projects. When we talk about sustainable infrastructure, we seem to be talking about no ongoing financing. When we talk about a sustainable facility, we seem to be talking about no Government investment. When we talk about sustainable infrastructure, such as broadband, we seem to mean something that does not involve volunteers. The worst example, of course, is sustainable farming, in the name of which we see again and again in our communities farmers being paid Government subsidies not to farm, so that a time will come when the sheep have left the hillsides, the subsidy stops and the sustainable farming is neither sustainable nor farming at all.
I shall not discuss the variability in the notion of sustainable community, except to say—moving from the facetious to the serious—why the debate is so important. This is perhaps the most important problem facing Britain today, and it is a problem of trust. When polled, 87% of British people say that politics is broken and 84% say that society is broken. Every single one of us in the Chamber has the experience of sitting down, perhaps at a dinner party, and trying to make polite conversation with the people next to us as it gradually emerges, once they have discovered we are a politician, that they think that we are indeed a liar and a thief. We know the gentle politeness with which, after the first course, they ask, “Is it really true that you have a subsidised bar? Would you mind explaining exactly the nature of your expenses?” Then, as we move on to the dessert course, they ask, “What do you think about all these professional politicians? Don’t you think that people with experience should come back into politics?”
All that is a sign of a big problem, which is the gap between local people, local communities—the ground—and us. It is a problem that we ought to be able to solve, because this is our moment and this is the right country in which to solve it. This is our moment because we have never before in this country had so many educated, confident people able to challenge Government in every way. Britain is also a country with a very strong and deep tradition of local democracy, which we talked about incessantly through the 18th and 19th centuries. Now, however, we find ourselves in a position where France, which we always saw as a hyper-centralised country, is well ahead of us in terms of decentralisation and local government.
How shall we address that? We have begun, but we have not gone far enough or been ambitious enough. The tone of Government is beginning to change: under the banner of things such as the big society, we see individual examples up and down the country of civil servants checking themselves, rethinking and considering ways in which they can respond to local communities. We see it in the construction of the infrastructure for sustainable communities: in rural areas, that means investment in broadband, for example, which allows people in a remote area to continue to operate and to flourish. They can get health and education services, or run businesses down broadband; perhaps more important for our purposes today, they can challenge their representatives and organise themselves down broadband. Thus local communities are allowed a political and democratic voice through technology.
The problem is that we have not gone far enough. Sometimes I think we need to be more decisive and spend more money, to answer the hon. Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma). We could spend more money in reference to splendid ideas such as, for example, National Citizen Service. That is a great idea to get a lot of young people and volunteers involved, but what have we got after two years? A very good project, but still only a few thousand people. The coalition Government are in power only until 2015, and if we are serious about getting National Citizen Service going, we should be aiming to have 70% or 80% of 16-years-olds going through the scheme by 2015. We should be putting the money behind it.
Sometimes it will be a question of challenging the structures of late capitalism, which is to say we need to challenge the structures of big business, and sometimes even the structures of big charities. An odd phenomenon of the modern world is that we sit in our local areas, and not only are supermarkets rolling into local communities and kicking out small shops, but major national and international charities that have 600 or so people sitting in their donor proposal writing departments in London are rolling into local areas and destroying local volunteer networks.
Solving those problems is not simply a matter of putting a little pressure on a local council or calling an official to account. We have to address the fundamental structures of procurement, the fundamental structures of financing and the structures of law. Again and again, we get caught up in state aid regulations in a way that we do not need to be, with small projects of £17,000 enmeshed in those regulations. We also need to take a different attitude to risk. If we are serious about working with local communities, we have to overcome some of our anxieties about accountability, predictability and transparency, and find ways of taking risk, trusting people and delegating to people.
A small example to illustrate how that is going wrong in my area in Cumbria relates to the bugbear with which I began: broadband. A classic example of local community activity is to be found in Mallerstang, a remote and beautiful valley, where the local community organised itself to get fibreoptic cables to every home. If the community had not done its work, that project would have cost hundreds of thousands of pounds, but because the local organisers signed up 100% of the people in the area for the service, because they found a way of digging the fibre trenches themselves, and because they negotiated with the supplier, the total cost to the Government will be £17,000. That is a very small amount of money to fire up a whole valley, yet somehow the Government have not yet got the money to the people. The last time I spoke to an official, that official suggested that British Telecom could make a charitable contribution of the money, because it was too complicated to get through the procurement and state aid regulations. As long as those attitudes and blocks remain, such fantastic opportunities for community action will never be realised. If we could use it on a national scale, that type of action could save us hundreds of millions of pounds and bring superfast broadband into communities—but only if the Government are as aggressive and flexible as they need to be.
This is not a question of attitude, of tone or of money; it is a question of the constitution. I pay tribute to the Minister who, above all, has expressed philosophically and consistently why that matters, why the dignity of the citizen matters, and why local communities matter. I think all of us in the Chamber would agree that if we are looking for one big constitutional change in this country, it is not tinkering with what happens here in Parliament, but changing what happens locally.
It is very disappointing that we did not get as many elected mayors as we wanted. Philosophically, the Minister will disagree with the idea of imposing a centralised solution on local communities, but I am beginning to believe that one of the triumphs of the French commune system was Napoleon himself, and that if we truly want local democracy in this country, we need to go for it and to impose locally elected mayors on communities—force communities to be free, and force them to vote for their own local representatives.
When we are not being attacked at ghastly dinner parties, we are often praised in our local areas for being good local constituency MPs. That peculiar paradox—that everyone hates politicians in general, but quite likes their local MP—explains the vacuum at the heart of our constitution and the vacuum of local democracy. If we can address that, if we can get sustainable communities in place, and if we can aggressively address finance, law and procurement in our constitution, we can turn our benighted subjects into citizens.
Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)
You will excuse me, Mr Weir, for not standing up. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship.
I start by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George). I am not sure whether I should be congratulating him on securing the debate or the Minister on signing the regulations today. If I make it a tie, perhaps both will be kind to me. None the less, it is important that we are having this debate and that, at long last, the regulations are in motion. I hope that the date of their publication—before the summer recess—is firm, as further slippage would be unfortunate.
I reflect on the contribution made by my good friend Sue Doughty in 2002, and all the work that has been done since. Like many other hon. Members, I spent more Fridays in London than I might have chosen to do to get this important legislation through. The number of hon. Members who have been committed to the process is significant.
On the idea of community, we have heard three very impressive speeches today, and I concur with much of what has been said. I have to say that I would not want to force communities to have a mayor, or force anything else on them, but I take on board some of the interesting comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart).
I want to focus my remarks right down at community level. I am sure we all have our experiences from celebrating the jubilee such a short time ago. If ever there was absolute evidence of strong community feeling, we saw it then, whether we attended a street party and the community was along that particular street; whether we attended a party in a park, which attracted people living on several nearby roads; or whether a village or even a small town came together. As well as signing the regulations today, the Minister must be committed to sorting out the time limits as we go through the process. There are many stories about people becoming disenchanted, having put their ideas forward and then having to wait a year or more to see whether they will progress. We should make the most of the enormous impetus that has just been given to community and pulling together, and act now. At the many community events I attended, people were saying, “We should do this again next year.” There was a real feeling that we can move forward and do all sorts of things.
As this debate is about localism, I shall refer to my constituency, which is interesting in that it is diverse but does not have a big town centre: it is composed of small market towns, district shopping centres and villages. There are some interesting aspects: for example, one district shopping centre and its neighbourhood put in a bid for Mary Portas money. I do not know how many local district shopping centres entered the bidding process, but I thought it was an ambitious thing to do, given the number of bids that would be successful. In itself, the bidding process was useful in bringing together ideas from the local community. Some communities will not get their neighbourhood plans off the ground. I think there is a hierarchy of what people might do, which is where the Sustainable Communities Act 2007 comes in, because it may not be a formal neighbourhood plan that takes matters forward, but initiatives under that legislation.
In district shopping centres, there are of course the same issues of use. My local shopping centre has many takeaways. My community obviously enjoys having takeaways or there would not be so many, but they affect the sustainability of the rest of the shopping centre, as do betting shops and some other uses. I feel that we need the hierarchy. I know the Minister is looking at use classes, and I hope that he will tell us today how the Localism Act 2011, “town centre first” policies, aspects of the national planning policy framework and the neighbourhood plans will all pull together as we move forward with the 2007 Act.
I want to make a brief reference to parish councils, of which there are several in my constituency. I have received representations from some parishes, along the lines of, “Why aren’t we getting on with this?” or “Why isn’t it confirmed that we will be part of this process?” I hope that the Minister will answer firmly today. To give a small example—to contrast with the much bigger issue of broadband, which is important—one of my villages wanted to adopt a roundabout and attract sponsorship, so that the roundabout would be attractive. Five years later the villagers have abandoned the attempt, because the county council made it so difficult. It is incredible to me that they were unable to do something so simple—something that towns throughout the country do—but one obstacle after another was put in their way. I am sure that all hon. Members have many such examples.
Let us be truly visionary. Let us have the whole picture of how the 2011 Act will work and how everything will slot into it, and give communities their say and the power to do what they want to do. It might be something as small as adopting a roundabout or gaining the right to put up sign posts without county council interference, or it might involve the bigger issues of true sustainability, improving our quality of life and ensuring that the next generation has a good community to grow up in and develop further.
John Pugh (Southport) (LD)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) on introducing the debate, and on his persistence, which I regard as entirely responsible for the fact that the Minister has published the regulations today. I am sure there can be no other explanation.
I have always been a warm supporter of the original legislation in all its incarnations, and have done my share of Fridays. I have been lobbied on the subject by my local newsagents and sub-postmasters, and by the New Economics Foundation; and I accept the principle of locally driven initiatives with proper community buy-in. I have done my share of community campaigning, and once owned the domain name nogo2tesco, when my local Tesco wanted to extend its non-food range, appreciably to the detriment of my local town centre. I have been there and got the T-shirt, in a way, and I accept that the idea is good. I recognise, however, that it has been largely killed by the process.
I visited a website—it might have been Local Works, but I apologise if it was not—which offered a diagram explaining how the legislation works. I cannot help thinking that if a diagram is needed to explain legislation, its supporters are in some sense doomed. There are an awful lot of filters to go through before anyone can secure the new power so widely promised in the legislation. By the time people get to the end of the process, they have forgotten why they started; it is so long and convoluted. That reflects central Government nervousness about localism at the time of the legislation. Central Government are always happy to talk the talk, but are more concerned about what might happen if they walk the walk. That is an endemic feature; it is in the DNA of Government, and probably also the civil service which advises them. We talk about community empowerment, which is a bit of a cliché; we talk about powers of general competence, autonomy and localism. We even passed the Localism Act 2011. However, in the end, any power bequeathed to local government is regarded by central Government with slight anxiety.
Offsetting that, at the moment, and hopefully leading central Government down a different track, is another anxiety, which is both complement and antidote. The anxiety is about what we see around us—or think we see: the corrosion of communities and the creation generally of a more anomic, impersonal environment, where the citizens of our land move and have their being. We regret that, and think that things are not as they should be. We also couple it—I am sure that the Minister does—with the belief that something can be done about it, and that that needs to be locally driven, within a proper national framework that provides the appropriate levers.
Generally, we also believe that what happens must be sustainable, although, as the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) said, we are not all clear about what we mean by “sustainable”. Clearly we do not mean something that we think should be sustained—something that, nostalgically, we still want, such as steam engines. I think what we probably mean is that we want something that will work, last and survive. There are people in this land who think that the high street can work, last and survive, despite changes in shopping habits, and that so can the local pub and possibly even the local post office. People want them to survive, because they see them as defining features of the area.
The issue, however, is not what we want but whether we can bring about what we think we want. Are there sufficient ideas around that will produce the outcome that people seem to hanker after, and are powers needed to ensure that we get the result we want? I am not certain that we are particularly clear about either of those questions. I think that we accept that any local power in this country, which is a non-federal state, is given by central Government to local government. I think that the Government are, generally speaking, ruminating on that. I hope that they are not ruminating on the imposition of mayors on communities that may not want them. Frankly, at the dinner parties I go to, people have never expressed an overwhelming demand for that. However, if we consider the Portas review, among other things, we see that the Government’s acceptance of certain proposals is based not on a clear understanding of what to do to revive the high street, but on wanting a variety of projects to proceed, so that it can be seen whether any are successful and worth implementing.
Rory Stewart
Will the hon. Gentleman reflect on why he thinks people should not have a directly elected mayor?
John Pugh
Probably because there is an element of democracy in my nature, and I think that wherever possible, and all things being equal, people should be asked whether they want things, rather than having them imposed on them.
It is not clear to me that, as a political class, we have clear convictions yet—we may be struggling towards them—about what is possible or desirable and, in the long term, achievable. After all, we are not talking about the collapse of the retail sector. People get their shopping and alcohol, and they have their mail delivered. However, the way people get those things is affected by changes in their habits, and so on. My hon. Friend the Member for St Ives mentioned specialist shops, and I am keen on their establishment, but we must recognise the fact that now a specialist shop means one that is on the internet, thus acquiring a wider clientele than it would ordinarily do where it was originally established.
We are becoming something of a market society, in which we judge everything by price. The battle that I see us having to reach sustainable communities cannot be pitched as one between nostalgia and market brutalism, because market brutalism will win. However, something called a sustainable community can be established, and it can work, deliver and progress. It is along the lines suggested by my hon. Friend, but it requires a positive political will, and realistic evidence-based policy to implement it, because if we are to produce the outcomes that many of us want, and avoid some of those that currently happen, we will need Government to engage with the topic further. I am sure that the Minister is only too keen to do that.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) on securing the debate. The title tempted me to come and listen, but I had not intended to speak, and was not sure what the debate would be about, for very much the same reason given by my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart)—I did not know what “sustainable community” was likely to mean. I had not taken part in the preparation of the regulations, and was not fully aware of where we were on the matter. I think of a sustainable community not as an objective that is ever reached, or even, in a sense, as a noun, but more as a process. I do not think that anywhere is ever reached satisfactorily; if that happened there would be a process of reversing, because there are always tensions at delivery.
I decided to make my contribution quite late on. It was instigated by a couple of comments made by the hon. Member for St Ives, and because I want to talk a little about my personal experiences, which I think are relevant. I started my public life as a member of a community council because I happened to live on the right road. The person who lived in our road stepped down, and as it was automatically assumed that someone from each road had to sit on the community council, I was prevailed on to join.
Then, almost through a series of accidents, I finished up in this Chamber. I had a disagreement with a county councillor over the views of my community, which were being ignored—that is relevant to today’s debate—and I stood against him in the county council and became its chairman. I then became a member of a quango, and as a result of that I became a Member of the National Assembly, although I lost my seat in 2007. That was a great surprise to me and I was hugely disappointed. In 2010 I was elected to the House of Commons, which was an almost equally great surprise because I had not expected that either. Therefore, through a series of accidents I finished up in this debate talking about sustainable communities.
To me, the principle has always been the engagement of people—the citizens—with the bodies that are doing things to them, or, supposedly, for them. The coalition Government have taken a number of initiatives to tackle that general area, whether through the big society, which is an attempt to engage locally, or the Localism Act 2011. Such measures have underpinned the Government, although whether we have been sufficiently successful or strong is an area for debate.
I shall refer to two points that were raised by the hon. Member for St Ives, one of which I agree with—as I said in my intervention—and one of which I do not agree with because of my own experience, although I do not argue with the principle. I also want to comment on onshore wind—I guess one of the reasons I came to the debate was in the hope of a chance to intervene on that point. However, I will not speak excessively about it today.
The first point concerns the impact of large retailers on towns. The two main towns in my constituency got a new supermarket, and as always there was a desire by the local community to take advantage of that and make the supermarkets spend a lot of money to benefit the community. There is, however, a limit on how such money can be spent, and in both instances a huge amount was spent on a road system near the supermarket, but the design was something that would be suitable for a city. In both cases, that has completely destroyed the communities and has the added disbenefit in busy seasons of preventing people from passing through Welshpool or Newtown to get to the west coast. Both systems are absolute disasters.
We want to reach a position where, when local authorities decide on such big applications, any planning gain will be something that the community might want on a long-term basis. I do not know whether that is legally possible, although I think the hon. Member for St Ives may have been looking at the issue. Perhaps some sort of fund could be used to make it easier to park, or it could affect business rates or support the town centre itself. That would be a huge improvement.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I am sorry that I was not present at the beginning of the debate, but I have been following the thrust of the discussion. I have heard much talk about the issues surrounding urban development and sustainable communities, but I have heard nothing about the farming and rural communities. The hon. Gentleman comes from an area that represents both those communities, in particular the farmers. Does he agree that we should recognise the effect on sustainable development of farmers coming together in co-operatives with strength of supply, forcing large supermarkets to give better prices for their products? Does he think that should be a core part of Government policy?
Glyn Davies
I very much agree. I have been a farmer all my life, and I have been involved in many initiatives designed both to buy and sell produce. The hon. Gentleman’s point is very relevant.
Andrew George
The hon. Gentleman mentioned what he described as planning gain. The problem with planning gain, as opposed to the proposal that I was advancing earlier, is that a one-off planning gain—or planning bribe, as I prefer to describe it—provides a one-off capital sum that will last for only a certain period. The impact of such initiatives needs to be sustainable over time, which is why my proposal seeks to address the problems of upward-only rent reviews and their impact on business rates in towns.
Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair)
Before the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire resumes his contribution, perhaps he will bear it in mind during his speech and in any interventions that I want to start the winding-up speeches by 3.40 pm.
Glyn Davies
That is very adequate, Mr Weir; I will not take any more interventions. I felt, however, that the thrust of the way I dealt with the issue was in some agreement with the hon. Member for St Ives. It is a complex way, although I am not quite sure what the legislation allows. I do not, however, think that a one-off investment that is in some way linked with a development is beneficial in the long term. We need much more flexibility.
My second point relates to planning permission for change of use. I admit that I used to be a supporter of that principle, but I chaired a planning committee for seven years; indeed, I was a Member of the National Assembly for Wales when the issue was considered by the Committee that I was chairing. The development of such a process, however, becomes so complex that it is almost impossible to operate. In the end, we came to that position. Whenever such a proposal is advocated, we need to think it through. Inevitably a certain percentage of cases would be allowed, and there would be a database, so that when that percentage was crossed, there would be an element of dishonesty.
Finally, I want to say a brief word about onshore wind, although not in the same sense that I have sometimes contributed to that debate. In my constituency—I speak about mid-Wales—there is massive disengagement with the Government. By far the biggest issue that faces us is the development of onshore wind power on a very large scale; we are talking about another 600 turbines, 100 miles of cable, and a 400 kV line all the way into Shropshire. It is a devastating proposal, and if I called a meeting tomorrow, 2,000 people would probably come, just as 2,000 people came to Cardiff with me to demonstrate.
The people of mid-Wales feel that they cannot influence the Government and that no matter what they say or do, the Government have made up their mind and will find a way of getting round them. In one or two recent decisions, the inspector said that the view of local people counted, which was encouraging. However, in a community such as mine—indeed, wider than mine—and in many other parts of rural Britain, this is a very dominating issue. No matter what the Government do to persuade people that they can engage with the process and that the Government care about them, if the project goes forward in my area, people will for ever feel totally disengaged with the Government. They want to feel that they are part of those sustainable UK communities that we saw so brilliantly expressed during the jubilee.
Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship Mr Weir. I congratulate the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) on securing this important debate and on the comprehensive nature of his introduction, which has led to an interesting exchange. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma), who demonstrated the importance of investing in truly local democracy if we are to tackle acute social problems that include substandard housing or rogue landlords.
I thought that the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) was going to treat us to a lecture on sustainable farming. That would have been very interesting, although apparently it will have to wait for another day. Instead, we heard about the importance of decentralisation.
The hon. Members for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke), for Southport (John Pugh) and for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) spoke about the need actively to enable communities to regenerate and be sustainable, including by regenerating high streets. I want to come to some of those points myself.
For a community to be sustainable, it must have access to facilities such as schools, jobs, shops and green spaces, and, increasingly, access to a low-carbon future. Clearly, however, no two communities are the same. Each faces different problems and has different priorities and circumstances. That is why communities themselves are most often best placed to identify the problems that they face and to work with others to find solutions. I believe that the Government know that. They have talked loudly and frequently about their desire to give more power to local people. In fact, the Prime Minister went so far as to say:
“Our future depends on putting more political responsibility in the hands of local people.”
The Minister will know that the Labour Government legislated for exactly that, with cross-party support, through the Sustainable Communities Act 2007, which put greater power in the hands of local communities to encourage economic, social and environmental well-being in their areas. I, too, pay tribute to the many midwives that the Act had. I will not repeat all the names given by the hon. Member for St Ives, but I want to add one—that of my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Martin Caton), who did a lot of work on the regulations.
We then amended and strengthened the Act in 2010, so it is incredibly disappointing that progress on the Act has stalled, as the regulations that would allow the amended version to be implemented have not, until today, been forthcoming. It would be churlish not to thank the Minister for informing us that the regulations are—finally—on their way, but he will know that there has been growing anger and frustration at the Government’s failure to publish them. There are many written parliamentary question responses, letters and e-mails, dating from before November, promising time and again that the regulations would be published soon, very shortly or within weeks, but I will take him at his word and expect them very soon indeed.
Perhaps the Minister would like to take some time to explain to us why there has been the extraordinary delay in producing the regulations. After all, the consultation finished more than a year ago. Given the huge amount of work that has gone into producing other measures, such as the Localism Act 2011, that apparently are aimed at broadly the same goal, it is hard to understand why the regulations to support the 2007 Act could not have been forthcoming much sooner.
Many people and organisations have been frustrated by the delay. I have been contacted by organisations such as the Campaign for Real Ale, the Public and Commercial Services Union and Local Works and by a number of constituents. They want to know why, if the Government are so pro-localism, they have been so slow to move forward with the Act and put power into the hands of local communities. I therefore look forward to hearing the reasons for that extraordinary delay.
Labour supported the Sustainable Communities Bill in 2007 because it looked set to introduce bottom-up decision making and inspire more people to become involved in shaping the policies that affect them. We want to see that put into operation. Key to the 2007 Act was the compulsion for the relevant local authority and the Secretary of State to try to reach agreement on local people’s proposals. That, Local Works says, is what gives the Act teeth. Without a meaningful definition of reaching agreement, the Act risks becoming a glorified consultation process that might only compound frustration in some communities. Will the Minister give an assurance that, when published, the regulations will include the definition of reaching agreement given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears)—a dialogue in which the final decision is to be taken together?
Will the Minister also give assurances that he will urgently consult on new regulations that will, in line with his speech to the House in March 2011, allow town and parish councils to submit suggestions and proposals under the Act? Along with publishing the regulations, will the Minister write a memorandum of understanding between the Secretary of State and the selector to set a time limit on how long it takes for proposals to be dealt with and to ensure that the selection process is as transparent as possible? I should like to know whether the Minister plans to include Local Works as part of the selector.
Surely, the 2007 Act is one of the best ways to encourage sustainable communities. Does the Minister agree? Beyond that important Act, he and his colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government have been busy introducing a raft of other measures that I am sure he hoped would give power to local people, but I have a few concerns.
The national planning policy framework was touted as a way of engaging communities in planning and ensuring that they had a positive say on development in their area. Essential to that are neighbourhood planning forums and the plans that they produce, but a huge number of communities are likely to face significant problems in getting those groups off the ground. The Government have given funding of £20,000 to front-runner forums. I welcome that, but am very concerned about what will happen in the future, especially as we know that the Department itself has estimated that the plans could cost up to £63,000. I am concerned that that runs the risk of affluent communities being able to engage positively in the planning process, while disadvantaged communities cannot.
The 2011 Act is designed to give local communities the power to bid for services or assets, but again it is not clear how they will achieve that or where the resources to enable them to do so will come from. I am worried that the Government are sometimes confusing giving responsibility to communities with devolving power to them. In addition, new duties are being placed on local authorities, while many are seeing their resources from central Government cut massively.
Another key part of sustainability is, of course, the environment. We are in the process of moving to a low-carbon economy, but we will achieve that goal only if all communities have access to renewable and low-carbon energy. This might be outside the Minister’s remit, but it would be useful to hear something about how he thinks all communities will be able to gain access to renewable energy sources and within a reasonable time frame.
The last issue that I want to raise has been mentioned by other hon. Members—the need for regeneration of our high streets. Again, it is important that we welcome the money that has gone into the Portas pilots, but clearly it is not enough and it will not help all communities, including some of the most needy, to regenerate their high streets. Are the Government doing any more thinking on how to ensure that all communities can regenerate their high streets? Finally, how will the Minister ensure that all communities can take full advantage of the 2007 Act once the regulations are published?
The Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Greg Clark)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Weir. I join the congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) on securing the debate. I detect from the excellent speeches that we are a band of believers. It is a pleasure to be able to respond the debate and to speak again on one of the most important Acts of Parliament that we have passed in recent years. As was made clear by the references to the various midwives from all parties and of different vintages of parliamentarian, it very much reflects the view of the whole House of Commons representing our various constituencies. The legislation going on to the statute book was an early marker of the power of leadership for people in constituencies, beyond political parties.
I am delighted that so many Members contributed to the debate. It is good to see my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) here. I know that he was to speak at the funeral of his neighbour and constituent, whom he knew for 50 years. He has attended the debate to represent his constituents, and I am sure that members of his community will greatly respect the obligations that he has to the House. I offer my condolences and, I am sure, those of other Members to the family of his friend and constituent.
The ambitions of my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives are completely shared by the Government. The cross-party support for the Sustainable Communities Act 2007 has been striking. If I were to summarise the Act’s contribution, I would say that it established the principle that the right of initiative should not be held in monopoly by people in Westminster and Whitehall—that we should not be the only people who can propose changes to the way things are done, but that that right of initiative should increasingly, and perhaps more normally, come from people in communities, and we as parliamentarians and members of Governments should respond to the initiatives of people in communities.
Our role should be to be the midwives to good ideas that come from local level. It is extraordinary that for so many years—decades—it has been the almost unthinking assumption that ideas have to come from this place and are then visited upon our communities. The notion that Ministers in Whitehall or parliamentarians in Westminster have exclusive access to wisdom and sagacity when it comes to ideas is extraordinary. More than that, as was evident in the contributions today from representatives of almost every part of the United Kingdom, the idea that any place in the UK is in any sense identical to another is for the birds. It is the glory of this House that we represent places that are unique and have their own local character and civic and political traditions—every aspect of community life is reflected.
When people in communities are given the right of initiative, we should of course expect that they will want to do things their own way—differently from one another and from one place to another, and differently from how they have been done in the past. Traditionally, Government and, too often, local government have, first, been frightened of those differences and, secondly, tried to suppress and iron them out. They have tried to impose uniformity across the country, across counties or across districts, as though the differences were regrettable anomalies, rather than a reflection of different requirements and needs that should be positively encouraged.
The principle established in the 2007 Act—that every community in the country should have right of initiative, the right to be heard and the right to address the Government directly and pitch its ideas to them, and that the Government should be under a legal duty to respond—is important not only as a principle, but as the germ of an idea whereby it has an even greater influence on our deliberations across the board. It has been seminal in the Government’s thinking on various reforms, such as the 2011 Act. Section 1 of that Act on the general power of competence reverses completely the old idea that local government exists to do what central Government require of it. That has changed and local government is free to do whatever it wants in pursuit of the service of local people, unless what it proposes is specifically prohibited by central Government. That seems to be the correct default position. The contributions of the debates over many years on the 2007 Act were important in establishing that principle across Government.
Greg Clark
I am not saying that there are no tensions, but rather than start from the position that nothing is possible that was not previously allowed, one should deal with each case and consider whether it may give rise to problems. That is exactly the philosophy and spirit of the 2007 Act. My hon. Friend the Member for St Ives offered many suggestions, all of which I accept it is our duty to consider. I hope that they will come through the procedure of the 2007 Act. That is the right approach.
Let me say a little about the process and then I shall respond to some of the points made—I am conscious that I have very little time. I do not accept the admonishment of the hon. Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) about the timeliness of the measure for two reasons. First, part of the frustration that many communities experienced during the early days of the 2007 Act was that, having responded to an invitation to submit proposals in October 2008, the previous Government did not respond at all before they left office. We inherited every one of the proposals made under that initial call for evidence. The previous Government took no action whatever and sat on them for nearly two years, but within six months we responded to all the proposals.
More than that, we have swept away the requirement to be forced to consider proposals from communities. We have now established a principle in my Department that any proposal from any member of the public or any community can be pitched to the Government, and we will consider it and it can be tracked in real time via the barrier busting service. There is a website—www.barrierbusting.communities.gov.uk—and since it was launched in December 2010, we have dealt with 258 cases that have come from it. With the regulations, we are talking about back-stop powers for people who are dissatisfied with the Government’s response.
I signed the regulations to bring these measures into effect today. It took a little time because the consultation revealed disagreement between the representatives of local councils and the representatives of community groups, such as Local Works. I was keen that we should not take the lowest common denominator, but seek agreement, which we have been able to do on matters including, for example, the retention of the duty to seek agreement and the establishment of an advisory board to the selector. I fully expect Local Works to be part of that process and group. We have very much strengthened the regulations, and it was absolutely right to do so.
The regulations were signed today and will be formally laid before Parliament within a week—they need to be printed. They will come into force by 26 July 2012. They include a duty on local authorities to consult their communities. There will be a memorandum of understanding between the Secretary of State and the selector to include a time limit during which proposals that have been submitted for consideration will be considered—that is likely to be a maximum of six months, except for special cases. There will be a requirement to be transparent about the processes that are gone through. We will publish simultaneously with the Hansard report of today’s debate the response to the consultation, and a consultation specifically—it is required, unfortunately —to allow parish councils to submit proposals directly. Parish councils already can submit proposals through the barrier busting website, but we will consult on that additional safeguard. I strongly believe that we should allow parish councils, through the principle of subsidiarity, to engage in that process.
I am keen to see many applications. People should not wait to go through the formal process; if they want to pitch directly to the Government, they should. I hope and am confident that following the enactment of the regulations, the rights of every community in the country will be robustly enshrined.
Bilateral Trade (Israel)
(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)
I am pleased to raise Government policy on bilateral trade with Israel in this half-hour debate. First, let me draw Members’ attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, in which I declare my trip to Israel and the Palestinian Authority in September.
The relationship between the UK and Israel has always been strong, and the UK has always been a constructive partner in the peace process. Britain can and should be a force for good in the region. With a balanced approach, we can exert our influence as a strong and impartial mediator with the ability to corral both parties to the table.
Alongside our role in the peace process, Britain should be making the most of investment and trade opportunities with the economic success story that is the modern state of Israel. Since its creation in 1948, Israel has been involved in near-continuous conflict. In 1948, 1967 and 1973, Israel’s Arab neighbours vowed to destroy the Jewish state, but, despite being vulnerable on all borders, Israel fought back and prevailed in those wars. The state has also survived several intifadas imposed on it by the Palestinians. The continuous threat of terrorism and suicide bombings has affected life in the country in ways that the UK cannot truly understand. Despite those near-impossible conditions, Israel has developed into an economic and industrial power that is admired the world over.
Israel is a country that is low in natural resources, and, to succeed, it must depend on the inventiveness of its people. Indeed, its people are its greatest asset. Israel has done well not because it has vast mineral wealth, oil or huge natural resources, but because its people are enterprising, extremely innovative and able to apply high technology.
I have had first-hand experience of those qualities, as I spent many years working for HP Indigo with Israeli entrepreneur Benny Landa, who pioneered the invention, development and commercialisation of ink-based electro-photography—digital printing. It was Benny’s vision and determination to bring the printing industry into the 21st century, despite the difficulty of overcoming traditional thinking and aggressive competitors, that were most impressive. The fact that Indigos are still made in Israel and Hewlett-Packard is the country’s second largest employer after Intel is indicative of Israel’s creative and entrepreneurial culture.
My perceptions were further reinforced when on my first visit to the country last year I had the privilege of visiting the world-class Weizmann Institute and meeting some of the professors of science.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on bringing this matter to the Chamber. Many of us are interested in this subject and are keen to see how we can advance the relationship between Israel and the United Kingdom. One of the areas in which Israel clearly leads the world is medical and pharmaceutical innovations. Does he feel that those advances and opportunities in the medical and pharmaceutical industries should be exchanged, so that we can build up a trade exchange that would advance both Israel and the United Kingdom?
Graham Evans
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I totally agree that we can work more closely with Israel, and later in my speech I will bring in some specific examples of medical advances in Israel and show how they have helped citizens in the United Kingdom.
Meeting some of the professors of science at the Weizmann Institute was most welcome and inspiring. Institutions such as the Weizmann, the Hebrew university of Jerusalem and the Haifa Technion are all rightly considered to stand alongside top institutions throughout the world, especially in the US and the United Kingdom, in academic excellence. The energy and resourcefulness that I witnessed working for Indigo and at Weizmann and among the population in general explain how Israel has converted what was once a land of citrus groves and kibbutzim into a high-tech powerhouse. Israel is now a modern industrial state, producing some of the most advanced and sophisticated technology in the world.
Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. Does he agree that a distinction must be drawn between trade with the state of Israel and trade with illegal settlements in occupied Palestinian territory, and does he intend to address that aspect of the relationship in his speech?
Graham Evans
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for raising that matter. The institutions that I have visited are not on any so-called settlements. Israeli settlements occupy roughly 1.5% of Palestinian land. I appreciate the question, but this debate is really on bilateral trade, and to my knowledge, I have never done any trade with those settlements. If I may, I will now carry on with the point of the debate.
The state is a world leader in medical devices. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) has just referred to medical advancements, devices and electronics. Military electronics, civilian and military aviation, agri-technology, telecommunications, computerised graphics, cellular telephones, microchip, voicemail, and water technology and desalination are just a few areas of Israel’s expertise.
Agricultural technology is playing a pivotal role in efforts to alleviate disease, hunger and poverty throughout the developing world. When asked to explain the $4.5 billion investment in an Israeli company, Warren Buffett replied:
“Some Americans came looking for oil, so they didn’t stay in Israel. We came looking for brains, so we stayed in Israel.”
Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. I want to follow up on the comments made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith). I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not seriously saying that we should not consider the political climate in Israel when we talk about the important bilateral aid relationship. We need to consider the activities that are taking place in illegally occupied territories. Yes, we need to consider the tremendous innovations that are helping to fight poverty and to create opportunities rightly around the world, but what about the poverty and the killing of opportunity that is taking place in the illegally occupied territories as well as in the west bank and Gaza strip?
Graham Evans
I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I merely point out that the illegal settlements are a relatively small part—1.5%—of the Palestinian territories. One of the best ways in which we can encourage and influence solutions to these issues throughout the world, especially in Palestine, is through trade. It gives us an opportunity as a nation and as a member of the European Union to speak to both parties about a two-state solution that is right for both parties. The point that I am trying to make is that trade is vital and that Israel can play a role in global economics and technological and scientific development.
Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con)
On that very point, will my hon. Friend join me in welcoming Israeli high-tech firms partnering with British manufacturers? For example, Eurocraft Enclosures in my constituency of Dudley South has partnered with ECI Telecom to provide the technological internals that are encased in high-quality British engineering. That is providing jobs in my constituency. Does he agree that that is an example of what we need in the future?
Graham Evans
My hon. Friend makes a valuable point, and I wholeheartedly agree with him. This is about creating wealth and jobs in our country and within Israel. Partnering with such innovative companies in Israel will lead to job security and wealth creation in all our constituencies and in the whole country. In the 21st century, Great Britain has to pay its way in the world. If we look at the growth in the Israeli economy, we can see that Great Britain has a few things to learn.
Jim Shannon
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way again and for his graciousness in doing so. Perhaps one of the best ways to build relationships between the Palestinians and the Israelis is to build up economic relationships and the job opportunities that come from those relationships. Does he feel that Britain can perhaps have a greater influence on what takes place in Israel by building those economic and employment opportunities?
Graham Evans
I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I totally agree with him that the more that we work with nation states and create innovation, jobs and wealth, the more everybody benefits from that creativity and bilateral trade. It benefits all nations.
A little earlier, the hon. Gentleman mentioned some Israeli medical advances. The example of such an advance that I should like to give shows Israeli ingenuity and brain power. In April, I participated in the London marathon. I might not look as though I am fit enough to run the London marathon, but I ran it with my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley South (Chris Kelly); I hasten to add that he beat me, but there we are. A lady called Claire Lomas, a paraplegic British woman, was able to walk the entire route of the 2012 London marathon, thanks to a futuristic Israeli medical device. Her amazing achievement was made possible only because of Argo Medical Technologies’ ReWalk, which is a futuristic Israeli product. ReWalk is the world’s first commercially available upright walking technology for people with lower-limb disabilities. The 44 lb device comprises a brace support suit that integrates motors at the joints, sensors and a computer-based control system, and it has rechargeable batteries. Sophisticated algorithms analyse body movements, and then trigger and maintain gait patterns, as well as stair-climbing and shifting from sitting to standing. ReWalk transforms the lives of paraplegic people.
Claire Lomas was permanently paralysed below her chest as a result of a riding accident in 2007. However, she was determined to participate in the 26.2-mile marathon, even though she could cover no more than 2 miles a day. It took her 16 days to reach the finishing line—
Graham Evans
As I was saying, it took Claire 16 days to reach the finishing line, accompanied by her husband, Dan Spicer. That is an inspiration to us all.
Aside from the inventiveness of its people, what is it about Israel that makes it such an economic and high-tech success story? A well-established and fully functioning democracy, a western legal system, the full infrastructure of transportation, communication and utilities, and an educated and motivated population make the country attractive to foreign investors and industry. For that reason, virtually all major US high-tech companies have installations in Israel, and companies such as IBM, Intel and Motorola have established plants in the industrial parks that are expanding around the country’s academic institutions.
It is most heartening to see how we in the UK are now taking advantage of the business opportunities provided by Israel. Israel is one of the UK’s key strategic business partners and has become its largest individual trading partner in the near east and north Africa. Over the past 10 years, the value of bilateral trade in both directions has increased by 60%, from £2.3 billion to more than £3.7 billion. In 2011, the value of British exports to Israel reached £1.57 billion, and Israel’s exports to the UK, primarily machinery, diamonds, technology and pharmaceuticals, totalled £2.18 billion. In fact, the Israeli pharmaceuticals company, Teva, is the largest supplier of generic drugs to the NHS. More than 300 Israeli-related firms operate in the UK, of which 34 are listed on the alternative investment market and 11 on the main market of the London stock exchange, and more than 75 major UK companies have offices in Israel.
Israel’s success in integrating into the global market has been facilitated by an enormous number of free trade agreements with the US, Europe and other countries, including Canada and Mexico. In fact, Israel’s approach to free trade is one that we in this country could learn from. UK-Israel business is strongly assisted by the existence of a free trade agreement between the EU and Israel, which provides import duty exemptions for most Israeli-made products arriving in the EU. I urge the detractors who argue that that trade agreement benefits only Israel to reconsider in the light of the bilateral trade figures. It is in the interest of both the UK and Israel to develop bilateral trade, which is hugely significant to the UK’s economy in encouraging growth, employment and the creation of wealth—factors that we all know to be crucial in our economic recovery. To that end, will the Minister give assurances that trade that benefits both countries will not come under threat from pressure by politically motivated groups and organisations?
In addition, are there any plans to develop a bilateral investment treaty between the UK and Israel along the lines of the one between Israel and Germany? A 2011 UK White Paper, “Trade and Investment for Growth” pointed to Israel as a pivotal strategic partner for Britain’s future. The White Paper stated:
“The Government will encourage a stronger partnership between British and Israeli companies to exploit the potential synergies between Israel’s high levels of innovation and British strengths in design, business growth and finance, as well as the UK’s own high technology and scientific strengths.”
I was therefore delighted to learn of the work that our excellent ambassador, Matthew Gould, is doing to build a stronger partnership between Israel and the UK.
As part of that, the UK-Israel technologies hub was launched in October 2011. It is tasked with promoting economic growth and innovation in the UK and Israel by creating lasting partnerships in technology between the two countries. It is also important to note that, since both nations boast active fields of research and development, the UK has been particularly committed to enhancing ties in that area. For that purpose, £10 million will be awarded over the next five years to the Britain-Israel research and academic exchange, whose aim is to bring together British and Israeli scientists on academic research projects. Furthermore, the recently established UK-Israel Life Sciences Council was formed to enhance scientific collaboration. To that end, 19 leading scientists from both countries, including four Nobel prize winners, three Members of the House of Lords and presidents of universities, among others, have come together.
I applaud those initiatives and collaborations in the fields of business, science and academia. What discussions has the Minister had with his Israeli counterpart to increase such co-operation? Israel is a phenomenal source of innovation, with more start-ups per capita than anywhere else in the world. Israeli companies need foreign partners for capital, business and product development, and access to global markets. With market access to Europe, the world’s strongest financial centre, world-class professional and creative services, and complementary strengths in technology emerging from our world-class academic institutions, Britain can and should be a natural partner for Israel.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Weir. I thank my hon. Friend the Member Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) for securing the debate, how he has raised the subject and his courtesy in sending me an advance copy of his remarks, which I appreciate. I salute his personal interest and commitment to enhancing the UK’s relationship, particularly its commercial relationship, with Israel. He made reference to several high-tech and research developments, some of which I will refer to.
My hon. Friend particularly mentioned the London marathon. He will know, as will my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley South (Chris Kelly), that we share that interest; I have done nine. This year, we saluted the extraordinary courage of Claire Lomas in taking part as she did. It was absolutely proper for my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale to draw attention to the suit and kit she wore and the part played by Israel and its scientists in their development.
I welcome the opportunity to reiterate the importance the Government attach to developing our trade relationship with Israel as part of our overall efforts to broaden and deepen our bilateral relationship. I will cover the issues about settlements that have been raised by other colleagues as part of my response, if I may.
Israel, with its strong economic performance, low inflation and falling unemployment rate, continues to provide a growing export market for UK companies. Israel has an excellent reputation for innovation and invention, and it is a world centre for research and development. I have seen for myself that its reputation is well earned; on my visits to Israel, I have paid particular attention to visiting high-tech and innovative businesses.
Over the past 10 years, the value of bilateral trade between Israel and the UK has flourished in both directions. It has increased by 60%, and it reached a record high of £3.75 billion in 2011. Currently, Israel is the UK’s largest individual trading partner in the near east and north Africa region. It ended 2011 as the UK’s third biggest export market in the middle east. This successful partnership continued to thrive in the first quarter of 2012. UK imports were more than £500,000 from January to March 2012, an increase of 65% on the same period in 2011. The UK exported £439 million of goods from January to March 2012, an increase of 13% on the same period in 2011. I am sure that colleagues will agree that such trade figures are extremely encouraging.
The Government fully agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale that the UK and Israel are natural economic partners. However, our efforts to develop that economic partnership are fully consistent with our strong commitment to an early solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as essential to the long-term security of Israel and the region, and for the economic prosperity of all in the area. Our policy is also fully consistent with our condemnation of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories and our efforts, with our European partners, to demonstrate that concern through, for example, steps with regard to settlement produce.
Mr Andrew Smith
Does it surprise the Minister that the UK and EU guidelines on procurement, as I have been told in answers to parliamentary questions, do not differentiate between products emanating from Israel and those emanating from the Occupied Palestinian Territories? Will he comment on that?
Alistair Burt
The voluntary guidelines available in the EU and put into effect here enable greater choice for consumers and they are important, but the area is developing in relation to both goods and services. We are constantly considering ways to ensure that choice is available without going down the route of a boycott, which the Government oppose.
There are two things in particular. The first is the importance of clear choice and clear labelling of goods and services. Secondly, we set the issue in the context of what we believe to be most important, which is the negotiated settlement between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. We do a great deal of work in the occupied territories in relation to business development. We are working to strengthen the Palestinian private sector by sponsoring numerous trade and investment-related meetings in both the Occupied Palestinian Territories and the UK. We continue to urge Israel to remove the barriers preventing greater trade between Israelis and Palestinians. They are natural trading partners, and greater trade between the two would enhance both. That is why we set the growing and important bilateral trade relationship with Israel in the context of what we believe is still possible and would enhance economic prospects for all.
The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said that confidence is built by people trading. That is a view that we share, which is why we are against boycotts and in favour of trade. We think that enhancement of trade in the region will help the process of negotiating an arrangement between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, which is why we encourage it, but we do not see that there is any reason for us to slow down the bilateral relationship with Israel. Quite the contrary; we think that a thriving Israel is good news for the region.
Having spent a bit of time on that part of the issue, I return to the meat of the debate as introduced by my hon. Friend. With our full support and encouragement, British companies have a growing presence in Israel. Barclays Capital recently opened a research and development centre in Tel Aviv. Major British companies such as Lloyd’s, GlaxoSmithKline, British Airways and HSBC also continue to have significant interests in Israel.
Equally, Israeli companies have increased their trading presence in the UK. There are now about 300 Israeli firms operating in the UK, providing thousands of jobs. They cover a wide spectrum of sectors, most notably in pharmaceuticals, defence, information and communications technology, mining, food processing and plastics manufacturing.
Despite the excellent trade links that already exist, there is huge potential to build on UK-Israel collaboration. As my hon. Friend made clear, Israel is a powerhouse of innovation and entrepreneurship, leading the way in the fields of digital, life science and technology. There are excellent opportunities for UK companies to pursue agreements with Israeli high-tech companies.
Our partnership in high-tech could become an important contribution to Britain’s economic growth. At present, America remains the Israeli entrepreneur’s first thought for international partners. As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said:
“We believe that Britain should be a natural partner for Israel in high tech”,
sentiments echoed by my hon. Friend. I also gave that message to a number of high-tech entrepreneurs in Tel Aviv in January.
We have taken important steps towards achieving that goal. In October 2011, during a visit to Israel, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer launched the UK-Israel tech hub. The creation of this new team at the British embassy in Tel Aviv follows an agreement between our respective Prime Ministers to build a UK-Israel partnership in technology. The hub has already identified key areas and projects in which the UK and Israel offer each other complementary advantages, and it acts to create closer collaboration in those areas.
For example, the hub has focused on delivering Israeli innovation in water technologies to UK utilities, and on building connections between the UK’s leading media and creative industries and leading Israeli new media-tech companies. As part of this, the Government have sent several high-level delegations to explore those opportunities, led by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Universities and Science and the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey). We have also launched the UK-Israel tech council, a body of senior Government and business individuals dedicated to advancing the partnership.
The high-tech hub team—the first in the world—consists of qualified staff from the business and high-tech sectors, including Digital, Biomed and Cleantech. They will help to find partners for Israeli companies, bring the best of Israeli innovation to British companies, and help each of our economies to exploit the potential of the other.
Last year the embassy in Israel also launched the regenerative medicine initiative within the framework of BIRAX—the Britain-Israel research and academic exchange programme. The £10 million fund, raised mostly from private resources, enables UK and Israeli researchers to apply for joint research grants in the field of regenerative medicine, an area of collaboration recommended by the UK-Israel Life Sciences Council. The first call for proposals was followed by the first UK-Israel regenerative medicine conference, which took place in Israel and had 60 UK participants. Both were a huge success. The proposals are being evaluated and the first eight BIRAX regenerative medicine research programmes will start operating in the forthcoming academic year.
Looking ahead, our next major event to promote UK-Israel bilateral trade will be the UK-Israel business awards dinner on 26 June in London. The dinner, in conjunction with UK-Israel Business, the Israeli embassy and the UK-Israel tech hub, will celebrate our tech partnership. I commend the contribution that UK-Israel Business is making to promote the UK to the Israeli business community as a central destination for global expansion. The dinner will come just after a major tech event that day called “Innovate Israel”, which will aim to reinforce that message and will be the most prolific attempt to date to promote trade relations.
There is also significant potential for new UK-Israeli co-operation in developing oil and gas fields in the eastern Mediterranean—co-operation that could expand to include further partners, such as Cyprus. This is an exciting new opportunity for both countries and offers the prospect both of energy independence and of closer, more co-operative relations across the region.
In conclusion, the UK-Israel trade figures for 2012 so far are extremely promising. Our new initiatives—the tech hub and the tech council—are taking root, and we are establishing new UK and Israel business partnerships. We strongly expect continued growth throughout 2012 and 2013.
It is clear from those endeavours that we greatly value our bilateral trade relationships with Israel. I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale that the British Government will continue to develop and strengthen this important relationship, which we set in the context of greater prosperity and greater security in the region as a whole, which will help everyone.
Railways (Kettering)
(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
I thank Mr Speaker for allowing me to hold this debate and welcome the Minister of State, Department for Transport, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs Villiers), who has responsibility for rail, to listen to what I have to say on behalf of my constituents. First, though, I would like to thank a number of local people. Councillor Mike Tebbutt of Kettering borough council, Councillor Russell Roberts, the leader of the borough council, and County Councillor Chris Groome, the leader of the Kettering rail users group, have all encouraged me and helped me to prepare my remarks today.
The upgrading and electrification of the midland main line would be of immense benefit to Kettering and to the east midlands. The midland main line connects four of England’s largest cities and the Northamptonshire growth area, which is one of the fastest growth areas in the country, with our capital city. Passenger journey numbers have risen from 5.8 million in 1996-97 to 13.2 million now, an increase of 127%, compared with a national increase in rail passenger numbers of 69%. A further 28% rise is expected in the next 10 years, according to the route utilisation strategy.
Due to under-investment in the past 20 years, Midland Mainline trains cannot go at their top speed on any stretch of the track. Most other inter-city lines can go up to 125 mph, but despite the fact that InterCity 125s run on the line, their top speed is mostly limited to 100 mph. Despite having a very good punctuality record, the midland main line is the slowest of any of the inter-city lines. There are three pinch-points that restrict the service—Leicester, Derby and Kettering-Harborough-Wigston—all of which need upgrading before electrification takes place.
Upgrading and electrification will bring higher speeds, which will not only make the service more attractive and have a positive commercial benefit, but increase capacity to meet the increase in passenger numbers. That should generate £450 million of wider economic benefit to the region. For Kettering and neighbouring Corby, it will mean better connections north to Leicester—a route served by only one train an hour off-peak—and the travel time from Kettering to London should be cut by an average of five minutes, and potentially by more than 12 minutes. Travel times from London to Sheffield could be cut by 14 minutes. Upgrading and electrification should enable Midland Mainline to increase its train services from five to six per hour, so Kettering could get three trains per hour, rather than two, and that third train could have a journey time of48 minutes, rather than 62.
A 2011 Arup report shows that the benefits of the project would reduce the annual costs of running the line by £60 million, because electric trains are lighter and more efficient to run; they are also quieter. The project should pay for itself within just 10 years, which is an extremely quick pay-back period for an infrastructure project. In addition, it would cut carbon emissions by 13,000 tonnes per year, which is equivalent to the annual emissions of 15,000 cars.
Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate and on his excellent question at Prime Minister’s questions earlier today. He has already mentioned the £450 million of wider economic benefits, but another issue—he may intend to address this—is the impact of the expected increase in freight. I think we all agree on the importance to saving carbon emissions not only of using non-diesel trains, but of getting more freight off the roads and on to the railways. If that is to work, however, it cannot slow down the passenger trains. My hon. Friend has mentioned the three pinch-points. To get a sixth train on the line, there must be a way for freight trains to get by and for the passenger trains to avoid them.
Mr Hollobone
I am most grateful for that very helpful contribution from my hon. Friend who, as always, is serving her constituents so well. I think I am right in saying that Network Rail estimates that freight traffic, particularly through the Leicester pinch-point, is likely to increase by some 50% by 2020. That is yet another reason why, in introducing proposals for electrification, the Department for Transport must concentrate on upgrading those key sections of the track. Electrification on its own will not work; we need to have the upgrading first. Let me put it very simply: if the line is electrified and upgraded later, it will cost extra money because all the new electrical equipment will have to be moved as well. That is why the upgrading is so important.
It is crucial to emphasise that quite an amount of money will have to be spent on the line anyway in the next few years. For example, track and signalling maintenance and renewals expenditure will be ongoing.
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about investment. Does he share the concern that I and many people in Sheffield have about the contrast between investment in the midland main line and investment in, for example, the west coast main line? Some £200 million has been spent on a constraint at Milton Keynes, £190 million has been spent at Rugby, £180 million at Nuneaton, and £150 million at Stoke, and work costing £153 million is under way at Stafford.
We are talking about a relatively small cost in relation to the benefits that the hon. Gentleman has argued very strongly would be achieved not only for Kettering, but for Sheffield and many other cities on the line. A commitment to sorting out those three key pinch-points would go a significant way towards remedying the historical under-investment in the midland main line. Does he share my hope that the Minister will give us some reassurance on those points today?
Mr Hollobone
The hon. Gentleman is, as always, correct. I believe I am right in saying that, in recent years, some £12 billion has been spent on the rail network, but only £200 million has been spent on the midland main line. Another figure that comes to mind is that the line has attracted only 2% of the financial investment that has gone into other rail networks. Ours is very much this country’s overlooked line, even though we connect so many places of importance, including the hon. Gentleman’s city, to our capital city. I think the midland main line’s time has now arrived. For what should be relatively little expenditure, major improvements could be made to the line. I think I am also right in saying that, over the next 20 years, some 800,000 extra people are expected to live in the towns and cities along the route, which is the equivalent of having a new city the size of Leeds. Effectively, that new city will generate lots of demand for the rail network, which is why investment needs to take place now, otherwise we will have very real problems in the not-too-distant future.
Moneys have already been committed to do two major jobs: the improvement to the layout of Nottingham station, and gauge improvements for freight between Felixstowe and Birmingham using existing midland main line track. However, the two big bottlenecks that need sorting out are Derby and Leicester. It would be a big mistake to electrify those without sorting out the pinch-points.
The high-speed trains, which do not travel at their top speed, that are used for the Nottingham service are due to be retired in 2019, unless they are upgraded with electric doors and toilet tanks. That gives us an option to upgrade and electrify to Corby and Nottingham as part of a staged programme in control period 5, including the Leicester improvements, while the Government, if they felt under financial pressure, could carry over the extension to Sheffield—the constituency of the hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield)—into control period 6. That might assist the Government to overcome any resource and cash constraints in control period 5.
Higher speeds will not only make the service more attractive and have a positive commercial benefit, but increase capacity. For Kettering and Corby, that will mean better connections north to Leicester—there is only one train an hour off-peak—without the conflict with northern cities, which want faster services in the absence of the investment to make it possible, and serve intermediate stations.
There are key benefits for Kettering in having the pinch-points dealt with and in having the extra train. I cannot go into all the details about all the pinch-points, but perhaps the biggest one is Derby. Derby is very congested, and many trains have to wait outside the station for a platform to become free. However, all the track and signals at Derby are life expired and must be renewed anyway by 2016. This is the perfect opportunity to replace them with a superior layout that has more platforms and greater capacity, and segregates different routes to minimise conflicts and constraints.
Network Rail has designed that improved layout, which would cost an additional £66 million, taking the total cost—renewal and enhancement—to £140 million. As the hon. Member for Sheffield Central said, that is less than the cost of similar schemes on other inter-city routes. The danger is very simple: it would be cheaper not to do the enhancement and simply to replace like-for-like the already inadequate 1960s layout. However, that vividly illustrates the consequences for Kettering of these constraints. One Midland Mainline train each hour that has insufficient time to call at Kettering, because it must pass through those pinch-points at set times, sits in Derby station for 8 minutes because of congestion there. If the constraints were to be eliminated, a future train operator could choose to call at Kettering and still reduce the overall Sheffield to London journey time.
As with the other pinch-points, removing the Derby pinch-point would open up the possibility of a sixth train every hour calling at Kettering. That is the crucial thing for Kettering—the extra sixth train. There are five Midland Mainline trains per standard hour: two to Sheffield, two to Nottingham and one to Corby. They have to cater for the big long-distance flows between the big cities, as well as the flows to intermediate towns such as Kettering, so the calling pattern is inevitably a compromise. A sixth train per hour would allow a different pattern of train services and station stops, and would give the train operator more scope to cater appropriately for both the big cities and the towns. It is not possible to say in advance how a sixth train per hour would be used, because the Government have rightly stated that they will be less prescriptive in the next franchise, after 2014, and will allow the new train operator to decide such things on a commercial basis. However, there is a very strong case for an additional sixth train per hour calling at Kettering, and without that additional sixth train, there is no real prospect of any additional service to and from Kettering.
The benefits to Kettering would be a third train per hour to and from London, with a fast journey time of around 48 minutes. That train service used to exist, but was taken away some years ago. The sixth train per hour would also allow a second train per hour to and from Leicester probably going on to Derby, which would give Kettering vastly improved connections and a half-hour reduction in journey time to Leeds, Yorkshire, the north-east and, Mr Weir, Scotland. Clearly the extra trains would also increase capacity for Kettering, thereby catering for future growth.
Is a sixth train per hour realistic and achievable? Yes. There are six midland main line paths every hour out of St Pancras, so it would be perfectly possible. However, the three pinch-points cause the real problems, which is why they need to be addressed. In fact, a sixth train is already run for a couple of hours per day, essentially at the peak periods, but that that happens only because other conflicting trains—mainly freight trains between the north and London, or east-west passenger trains—have been effectively pushed out of the way for those couple of hours. It is not possible to do that for the whole day. In fact, as my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan) said, the prospect is that freight will increase over the next 10 to 20 years. That will cause particular problems with east-west traffic at Leicester, on which an additional 30 trains per day will be running by 2019.
It is standard practice to increase the number of trains on inter-city routes to cater for growth. The number of trains running on both the east coast main line and the west coast main line has been increased on many occasions since 2000—effectively, they have doubled in the past 10 years. In complete contrast, it has been 12 years since there has been any increase in the number of trains north of Kettering, although East Midlands Trains did introduce the new Corby-London service in 2008.
The reality is that to cater for the relentless growth of patronage on the midland main line, it will be necessary before long both to lengthen trains and to run a sixth train per hour, and it will be practical to run a sixth train per hour only if the constraints at the three midland main line pinch-points have been properly resolved. Fortunately, other works are already planned at each of the three pinch-points. That presents the perfect opportunity to solve the midland main line problems very cost-effectively.
The upgrading and electrification of the midland main line is a priority for colleagues in all parts of the Chamber. There is a very strong cross-party consensus in favour of the inclusion of the proposals in control period 5 and, if needs must, into control period 6. Political parties on all sides up and down the route, represented by local authorities, rail user groups, rail forums and freight groups, are all behind the scheme. Kettering sits in a very important place on the midland main line and there would be particular benefits to Kettering were the Government to give the go ahead for the proposals. On behalf of my constituents, I hope that the Minister will take on board these points. I am confident that she will do her best to ensure that the right decision is made.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) on securing the debate, and on his very detailed and well-informed analysis. It is also good to see my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan) in her place. Both my hon. Friends have played a leading role in the campaign for the electrification of the midland main line.
I understand the importance of the issue not only to my hon. Friends’ constituents, but to many communities in the east midlands and south Yorkshire that are served by the midland main line. I am also aware of the wide-ranging coalition of MPs, local authorities, businesses and other stakeholders, many of whom were mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering, who are all campaigning for improvements to the line and, in particular, electrification. The Government’s response to the campaign will depend on what is affordable within budgets that are constrained by the pressing need to deal with the deficit we inherited from Labour. Despite the deficit, we have already embarked on a major programme of rail improvement that is bigger in scale than anything attempted for 100 years. Improving our transport networks is a key part of our strategy for growth, and rail electrification is playing an important role in those efforts to improve our transport system and to boost our economy.
This is a timely opportunity to consider and debate electrification of the midland main line. Electrification can support our carbon reduction goals, as well as contribute to economic growth and the benefits outlined by my hon. Friend. In the longer term, some electrification schemes can also help us to achieve our goal of cutting the cost of running the railways; it is essential that the cost come down, because that is the only way to see an end to above-inflation fare increases. A more financially sustainable railway will also help us to deliver the sort of improvements called for by my hon. Friend today, and by other hon. Members day in, day out, in this Parliament.
Where the business case is strong and funding is available, the Government support progressive electrification of the rail network. As my hon. Friend said, electric trains are cheaper to run and maintain than their diesel equivalents. They emit less carbon and are quieter and lighter, which saves wear and tear on the track. Our committed programme of electrification includes the great western line to Oxford, Newbury, Bristol and Cardiff, and a significant programme in the north-west, including Liverpool to Manchester and Blackpool to Manchester. In his autumn statement, the Chancellor added the route from Manchester to Leeds and York to our electrification proposals, subject to confirmation of the business case.
The action taken by the coalition on electrification is in marked contrast to the approach of the previous Government. Their 30-year strategy for the railways, published in 2007, paid almost no regard to electrification and set out no sensible plans for it. In their 13 years in power, they managed to electrify less than 10 route miles of track on our network.
The midland main line has received some important investment in recent years. New stations have been built at Corby and East Midlands Parkway. Major station improvements have been delivered at Loughborough, Derby and Sheffield, and St Pancras has been transformed with the arrival of High Speed 1. Further improvements are in the pipeline.
Paul Blomfield
Will the Minister acknowledge, contrary to her previous point, that they were actually achieved under a Labour Government?
Mrs Villiers
I was not saying that the previous Government did not do anything; I am saying that they did almost nothing in relation to electrification.
By 2014, £69 million will have been invested by Network Rail to cut journey times for passengers between London and Sheffield by eight minutes. In the longer term, the second phase of High Speed 2 will slash journey time to the east midlands and Yorkshire. As I have said on a number of occasions, both in the House and outside it, the Government recognise that the business case for the electrification of the midland main line is strong—a point emphasised by my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering and a number of hon. Members. Useful supporting evidence has been provided by the report commissioned by East Midlands Councils and the South Yorkshire passenger transport executive, “The Case for Upgrading and Electrifying the Midland Main Line”.
The report highlights the significant potential economic, environmental and financial benefits that would come with electrification and other improvements, a number of which were outlined by my hon. Friend. He is right to focus on significant passenger growth on the line in recent years. It is important to take on board the points he made about projected population growth, the wider economic benefits that could be generated by improvements to the midland main line, and the potential for running- cost reductions—always an important concern—of electrification. I also note the points he made very strongly about the scope of electrification to provide capacity expansion. It is important for the Government to consider all those matters when making a decision on which schemes can receive funding.
The Government recognise that electrification of the midland main line could help to spread the benefits of high-speed rail, because it would enable through-running of services between the new high-speed network and the midland main line. That is something we will consider as we prepare our response to HS2 Ltd’s advice on phase 2 of the project to complete the Y network to Manchester and Leeds.
My hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough rightly highlighted the importance of considering the impact on freight of improvements to the midland main line, and we will do so carefully. We will also consider carefully the proposals for the range of improvements stakeholders are calling for in relation to the midland main line. I acknowledge that there is an aspiration to go beyond electrification and combine it with addressing some of the pinch points referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering. I note his analysis of the potential that a sixth train per hour might be able to deliver in terms of reconfiguring services and benefiting his constituents.
The hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) compared the prospects for the midland main line with the resources spent on the west coast main line. Yes, it is important to consider the relative levels of support for different parts of the country. Network Rail learnt many lessons from the west coast main line. Obviously, that project cost far in excess of what was originally envisaged. We hope that whatever schemes go ahead in future, whether midland main line improvements or others, Network Rail is able to avoid some of the mistakes made in relation to the west coast.
Electrification of the midland main line and a number of other upgrades are included in Network Rail’s initial industry plan, which sets out the rail industry’s view of options for inclusion in the next HLOS—high-level output specification—statement, for delivery in the period between 2014 and 2019. That plan is playing an important role in our deliberations on which projects can be funded in that five-year control period.
Although the case for electrification looks good, it is a major undertaking with a significant price tag. Just electrifying the line is expected to cost more than £530 million. The further upgrades that many campaigners are asking for could add more than £100 million to that figure. The Government already have commitments to improve the rail network in the period up to 2019, amounting to some £5 billion.
Mr Hollobone
I have listened carefully to the Minister. Is she impressed that the annual £60 million saving in running costs means that the electrification would effectively pay back within 10 years, which is almost unheard of for an infrastructure project of that sort?
Mrs Villiers
It is rare for an infrastructure project to pay for itself. Yes, that point will be important for us to consider when we take our decisions. My hon. Friend has made that point clearly and we are aware of it. However, even with the importance placed on transport by the coalition and with the positive business case for improving the midland main line, we will still need to make choices between competing priorities, because, of course, colleagues from throughout the country have priorities in their own areas.
We need to strike a balance between the aspirations of many communities for improved rail services and the need to ensure that the Government’s finances are not overstretched in these difficult times. The scale of what can be delivered to improve the midland main line depends on what is affordable and on a careful, fair assessment of competing priorities elsewhere on the rail network. The points that my hon. Friend made about the running-cost savings that could be delivered by electrification will be at the forefront of our minds when we take our decisions. However, we have not taken those decisions yet. I assure my hon. Friend that we are aware of the strength of the business case and of the support for going ahead with electrification.
Not all the projects that will take place in control period 5 will be expressly mentioned in the HLOS statement that we will publish. Some of the bigger ticket items may be expressly listed, but for projects that are not on such a big scale we are more likely to specify an outcome to be achieved on a route or into a certain city, such as increased capacity or faster journey times, and then it will be left to the industry, overseen by the regulator, to decide how best to deliver those improvements for passengers. Some improvements that campaigners have asked for over and above electrification would be more likely to fall into that category. If they were to go forward in CP5, they would therefore be subject to the industry HLOS process—an assessment by the rail industry and the Office of the Rail Regulator on how best to deliver them. I thought it might be useful to give that procedural clarification of what hon. Members can expect in terms of the type of scheme that would be headlined in the statement and those that might still be delivered during the CP5 period, but would be subject to further work by the rail industry.
Nicky Morgan
Briefly, since the Minister is dealing with procedural aspects, will she give us an update on timing? I have been told that we should expect some announcement in July. Is that still the timetable?
Mrs Villiers
Yes, the announcement will be made some time before the end of July, but we have not set a date.
The case for electrifying the midland main line continues to be made impressively by my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering and many others. Debates such as this provide important, timely input to the process of deciding which rail improvements can be funded in the five-year period up to 2019. I will ensure that all the points made today are carefully considered when the decisions on the HLOS statement are made.
Written Ministerial Statements
(11 years, 10 months ago)
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EU Foreign Affairs Council (Trade)
(11 years, 10 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Norman Lamb)
The EU Foreign Affairs Council (Trade) took place in Brussels on 31 May 2012. I represented the UK on all the issues discussed at the meeting. A summary of those discussions follows.
Three “A” points relating to trade agreements with Peru and Colombia, Vietnam, and Moldova (on geographical indicators) were all approved without comment.
The presidency informed the Council that provisional agreements on two legislative items had been reached, namely the reform of the generalised system of preferences (GSP) and the regulation on bilateral investment treaties (BITs). These agreements will now be put to the European Parliament and then to the Council.
Five substantive “non-legislative” items were discussed: the result of EU-Japan scoping talks on a potential free trade agreement (FTA); the work of the EU-US high level working group on growth and jobs (HLWG); the progress of the EU-Canada comprehensive economic partnership agreement (CETA); the trade and growth agenda; and green growth.
On the EU-Japan scoping talks there was a debate on the state of play. I reiterated UK support for a potential FTA. On the EU-US HLWG, I reiterated our support for a comprehensive deal and for ambition, commitment and momentum to be maintained. The discussion around the EU-Canada CETA highlighted the progress made and specifically covered intellectual property rights, financial services, geographic indicators and agricultural market access. The discussion on trade and growth followed the Commission’s presentation on the benefits for EU jobs and growth of the various FTA negotiations, with member states agreeing on the important role that trade had to play within this. Within the discussion on green growth, the Council supported the call for action in the pursuit of liberalisation of green goods and services.
Under AOB, the Council discussed recent Argentine trade restrictive measures with member states offering their support to Spain following Argentina’s expropriation of energy company Repsol’s majority stake in YFP, and agreed on the overall need to avoid protectionist tendencies.
Over lunch, there were discussions on the EU’s trade relations with China and India. I intervened in support of a more strategic approach to EU-China trade issues and suggested more regular discussions at the Trade Policy Committee of EU relations with key strategic partners. Member states received an update on negotiations on the EU-India FTA.
Government Olympic Executive (Quarterly Report)
(11 years, 10 months ago)
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The Minister for Sport and the Olympics (Hugh Robertson)
I am publishing today the Government Olympic Executive’s Quarterly Report—“London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games Quarterly Report June 2012”. This report explains the latest budget position as at 31 May 2012, and outlines the investments which are being made from the public sector funding package for the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic games. This is the last quarterly report before the London 2012 games.
The anticipated final cost (AFC) of the Olympic Delivery Authority’s (ODA) construction and infrastructure programme is £6.761 billion. This is a decrease of £16 million since the previous quarter. With additional savings in the period to 31 May 2012, the amount saved by the ODA against the original budget has now reached £1,004 million. There remains a total of £476 million of uncommitted contingency within the £9.3 billion public sector funding package.
The Olympic park and village were transferred from the ODA to the London 2012 Organising Committee for the Olympic and Paralympic Games (LOCOG) in January so they can prepare the venues for staging the games. Funding made available to LOCOG has increased by £29 million in the quarter as a result of transfers from the ODA, and for additional infrastructure works.
With just 44 days to go until the opening ceremony of the London 2012 Olympic games, construction of the Olympic park is virtually complete. LOCOG has held 42 test events in 28 venues with more than 8,000 athletes taking part in all Olympic sports and six Paralympic sports. This has not only enabled us to be better prepared for games-time but given 350,000 spectators the chance to preview the world-class sport expected this summer.
On 1 April 2012, the role and assets of the Olympic Park Legacy Company were transferred to the new mayoral development corporation—the London Legacy Development Corporation (LLDC). The LLDC will take forward the regeneration of the Olympic park and the surrounding area now that the responsibilities have devolved to the Mayor.
On 18 May the Olympic torch arrived in the UK and is currently travelling around the country. Approximately 2.5 million people around the UK have seen the torch and are taking the opportunity to be a part of London 2012.
The consistent and careful management of the London 2012 programme has enabled us to find additional security requirements, and invest in projects to help drive economic growth and tourism as a result of the games, all while staying within the £9.3 billion public sector funding package.
I would like to commend this report to the members of both Houses and thank them for their continued interest in and support for the London 2012 games.
Copies of the quarterly report June 2012 are available online at: www.culture.gov.uk and will be deposited in the Libraries of both Houses.
Telecommunications Council
(11 years, 10 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)
The Telecommunications Council was held in Luxembourg on 8 June under the Danish presidency. The Deputy UK Permanent Representative, Andy Lebrecht, represented the UK at this Council.
There were two substantive items on the agenda, which were both orientation debates. (An exchange of views steered by questions from the presidency) The first item covered the proposal for a directive of the European Parliament and of the Council amending Directive 2003/98/EC on reuse of public sector information. (First Reading). This draft proposal would extend obligations, so that cultural institutions (libraries, museums) would have to make data publicly available, clarify what material should be made available (to address unjustified withholding) and limit charges for most reuse to marginal cost. The presidency sought views on how the benefits of the proposal could be realised while addressing concerns over marginal cost charging.
Many member states including Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands and Romania were broadly positive towards the proposal, but several including Germany, Slovakia and Ireland also expressed concerns about the cost of making data available at a time when public budgets were under pressure. The UK supported the proposal and highlighted the economic benefits of making public sector information (PSI) available, while registering the need to take account of the implications for public bodies with different funding models, especially those that derive income from the sale and licensing of data.
The Commission responded to the concerns of member states by pointing out that that most of the information in question had already been paid for by the taxpayer; and that this was an opportunity to develop a market whose value could rise from the current €32 billion to four times that amount.
The second item was a debate on the proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament and the Council on guidelines for trans-European telecommunications (TENs) networks and repealing Decision No 1336/97/EC. (First Reading).
This draft proposal will set objectives and priorities for broadband and digital service infrastructure projects, which will be funded through the “Connecting Europe Facility” (a regulation creating the legal basis for funding of TENs projects in transport, energy and telecoms over the next seven-year multi-annual financial framework period). The presidency invited comments on criteria for selecting broadband projects and on the proposed cross-border “digital service infrastructure” projects.
The Commission introduced the discussion by noting that the proposal was designed to help leverage private funding for growth-enhancing investments. Many member states including Belgium, Poland, Estonia and France were in broad agreement on this proposal. Many delegations also noted the need for flexibility within the criteria for projects of common interest and in respect of the list of digital service infrastructure projects. Several delegations wanted to prioritise funding for areas with low broadband penetration rates, especially areas with low population density. However, others preferred more neutral criteria.
The UK’s intervention noted the importance of budget constraint, but subject to that, we supported the aims of access to superfast broadband for all. We also suggested that there should be flexibility to allow funding of wireless broadband projects, and both rural and urban projects should be eligible. We also questioned the need to prioritise EU funding for the European heritage project (Europeana), critical information infrastructure projects and proposals relating to smart energy meters.
Any Other Business
There were only three items under AOB. We did not intervene on any of these. The first item was an update from the presidency on proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council amending Regulation (EC) No 717/2007 on roaming on public mobile networks within the community.
The next item on the agenda was a presentation by the Commission on a communication entitled “Trust and Confidence” in electronic transactions in the internal market, which was published on 4 June. This communication includes proposals on electronic ID, as well as amend existing rules towards eSignatures.
Finally, the Cypriot delegation informed the Council of the priorities for their forthcoming presidency. These include trying to reach political agreement on the PSI proposal, a partial general approach on eTENs and to begin discussions on the communication on “Trust and Confidence” in electronic transactions in the internal market.
EU Energy Council
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The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry)
In advance of the forthcoming Energy Council in Luxembourg on 15 June, I am writing to outline the agenda items to be discussed.
The first substantive items on the agenda will be progress reports on the proposal for a regulation on guidelines for trans-European energy infrastructure and on the proposal for a regulation on safety of offshore oil and gas. The UK welcomes both proposals but wishes the draft regulation on offshore safety to be reframed in the form of a directive.
The Council is then expected to agree conclusions on the “2050 Energy Roadmap”. The energy road map is intended to explore the challenges raised by delivering the EU’s decarbonisation objective of an 80 to 95% reduction of greenhouse gas emissions, compared with 1990 levels while ensuring security of supply and competitiveness. It should also form the basis for a policy debate over the next 12 to 18 months on how the EU should promote low-carbon energy investment post 2020. We are broadly content with the text of the conclusions that the presidency is currently intending to present, as are most other member states.
The Commission will then present the communication on a renewable energy strategy which was published on 6 June. Ministers will continue the discussion of renewable energy over lunch. We welcome the publication of a renewable energy strategy and look forward to engaging in the development of this important element of the EU’s low-carbon energy policy.
We also expect the presidency to report on negotiations with the European Parliament on the energy efficiency directive. Negotiations with the European Parliament are now in the final stages and the Danish presidency is hoping to secure agreement at the final scheduled trialogue with the Parliament on 13 June though the outcome remains in the balance. The UK has to date supported Danish efforts to secure a deal provided that there is sufficient flexibility to take account of member states’ individual circumstances.
The presidency will inform the Council on proposals to amend an existing regulation and agreement on an energy efficiency labelling programme. No major changes are expected in the recast legislation.
At the European Council on 25 March 2011 it was agreed that a comprehensive safety assessment for the EU’s 143 nuclear power plants—the so called “stress tests”— would be undertaken. The Commission will report on the stress tests, and possibly the next steps on the review of the nuclear safety directive, before a report goes to European Council later this month. We endorse the conclusions of the final report of the presidency-chaired ad hoc group on nuclear security.
The presidency and Commission will present a report on a number of international energy relations items, including EU-OPEC, the EU-China high level meeting on energy, the southern corridor, EU-Russia, and the EU-US energy dialogue.
Finally, the Cypriot delegation will present the programme for their presidency.
Agricultural and Fisheries Council
(11 years, 10 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman)
The Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), who is responsible for natural environment and fisheries, represented the UK on 14 May covering fisheries business. The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Mr Paice), represented the UK on 15 May covering the agriculture items. Richard Lochhead MSP and Alun Davies AM also attended.
On 14 May the Council debated the common fisheries policy and the European Maritime and Fisheries Fund (EMFF).
On 15 May the Council debated common agricultural policy (CAP) reform: the greening of the CAP.
There were three any other business items:
Information from the Commission on the Salzburg aquaculture conference.
A request from Sweden on the enforcement of the general requirement to stun animals before slaughter.
Information from Poland on the fisheries partnership agreement between the EU and Mauritania.
At the Fisheries Council on 14 May 2012 the first item for discussion was reform of the common fisheries policy (CFP). There was general agreement that fishing needed to be at sustainable levels, that reaching maximum sustainable yield (MSY) was the correct approach and that the obligations agreed at the World Summit for Sustainable Development in 2002 for fishing to be at MSY by 2015, where possible, needed to be transcribed accurately in the new proposals. Discussions also covered the practical challenges of trying to fish all stocks in mixed fisheries at MSY simultaneously, the limitations in the current scientific advice and the need to take account of socio-economic considerations during the transitional period. The Commission noted these points and indicated there may be some flexibility in the timings within their proposals.
On the EMFF, member states identified a wide range of priorities for support and called for increased funding. The UK and Germany noted the annual EMFF budget should be no higher than it was in 2011. Many member states, including the UK, expressed concerns about the potential diversion of funds from implementation of CFP reform towards the Commission’s wider integrated maritime policy objectives and queried the size of the budget for this element.
In response, the Commission stressed that it was unlikely that the EMFF budget would be increased, and that cuts were possible. Although they agreed that flexibility was important, the scope was limited because of accounting rules, etc. The Commission agreed to provide clarification on the weighting of the allocation criteria.
Under any other business Poland asked for action to be taken regarding the negotiations with Mauritania for a new fisheries partnership agreement. The Commission acknowledged the importance of the agreement but pointed out that it was trying to take negotiations forward.
The Commission reported back on a recent conference focusing on inland aquaculture. Austria introduced a statement with 21 other member states (not the UK) calling on financial support for increased production and employment in the sector. Finland, supported by 17 member states (not the UK), tabled a text amending the EMFF, but also covering marine aquaculture. The UK stressed the need for growth to be market led.
On 15 May the Agriculture Council discussed the greening of pillar one. Previous discussions had revealed widely held concerns that the Commission’s proposals would not work in practice. The Commission tabled a working paper suggesting that certain agri-environment and other environmental certification schemes could, under certain circumstances, be considered as proof that one or more of the greening measures had been met, and suggesting some changes to the measures on permanent grassland and greening. All member states welcomed the Commission’s paper as a step in the right direction. The UK welcomed a “green by definition” option but stressed the need to deliver equivalence of effort across the EU, and that there should be no double funding in pillar two agri-environment schemes of costs and activities already paid for though pillar one greening.
Some member states wanted to see greater flexibility on greening, allowing a choice of measures at a national level from an EU agreed menu. The UK acknowledged the value of a menu approach but, with some others, argued for a transfer of the full greening component from pillar one (direct payments) to pillar two (rural development) as the most straightforward and environmentally effective way to do greening.
The presidency would present a progress report at the June council.
Sweden raised an AOB regarding the requirement to stun animals before slaughter, and the abuses of the derogation, which were taking place on non-religious grounds. This was raised in the context of the forthcoming report on labelling. The UK fully endorsed the Swedish position, agreeing that labelling could represent the solution. In response, the Commission confirmed that while member states could apply stricter national slaughter rules, they did not have the power to adopt legally binding measures to impose one particular interpretation of the derogation. They referred member states to recommendations set out in a 2011 report, and confirmed they would be launching a study assessing the level of public interest in this type of labelling.
Grand Committee
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Arrangement of Business
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The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn)
My Lords, welcome to this session of the Grand Committee. It is possible that there will be a Division in the House. If there is, we shall of course adjourn for 10 minutes.
Health Research Authority (Amendment) Regulations 2012
(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
That the Grand Committee takes note of the Health Research Authority (Amendment) Regulations 2012 (SI 2012/1108).
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I should start by declaring interests as the chair of a foundation trust, as a consultant in the health service and as a trainer with Cumberlege Connections Ltd.
As well as moving this Motion, I shall also speak to my second Motion, which also relates to the Health Research Authority.
On the face of it, the regulations and order are unexceptionable and they passed through the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee without comment. They provide for the board to be reconstituted with independent non-executives and an independent chair.
The responsibility that falls to the members of the authority is indeed weighty. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, has a long-standing record of commitment to health research, which is considerably reassuring to all those with an interest in this area. I have no doubt at all that health research is as important to the economy of this country as it is to the quality of patient experience and outcome. Indeed, embraced with the high quality of life sciences in the UK, it is crucial that we prioritise health research to the fullest extent possible. Certainly my experience in chairing the Pharmaceutical Industry Competitiveness Task Force some years ago convinced me of the essential link between the health of the person, the health of the NHS and the health of the economy, and that is why I think it is so important for the National Health Service to support health research. Our debates during the passage of the Health and Social Care Bill indicated the strength of support for research and for the Secretary of State’s responsibility for it to Parliament.
The HRA has been set up to protect and promote the interests of patients and the public in health research. The aim is to lead to the creation of a unified approval process and to promote consistent and proportionate standards of compliance and inspection. The HRA has a number of functions, including being the appointing authority for research ethics committees in England, and it provides the National Research Ethics Service. Also, by agreement with the devolved Administrations, it supports a UK-wide system for ethical review in the UK. It has an important ongoing programme of work and it also provides the integrated research application system through which applications for regulatory and governance approvals of health research are made in the UK. It also agrees plans to provide a platform for the unified approval process from the IRAS, as it is known.
I turn to the details of the regulations and order. I ask the noble Earl whether it is intended that the non-executives should be a majority on the board. I should also like to ask him about the Government’s intention regarding the publication of draft clauses to establish the HRA as a non-departmental public body. I do not know whether he can give any indication at all about the timing of and commitment to the eventual legislation that has been promised. Will he also comment on the Government’s approach to, and policies for, enhancing health research in the UK?
How are we to ensure that we make the most of the excellence of our life sciences? Can the Minister give some reassurance about the priority to be given to research by the NHS Commissioning Board? Does he believe that academic medicine is given sufficient support by the National Health Service? Is he confident that the HRA has the capacity to streamline research application processes? That point has been made to me by a number of organisations that have been interested in the order and in our debate.
The noble Earl will be aware of the continuous debate over probably the past decade about the bureaucracy involved in the application processes and a feeling that the UK has lost its competitive edge because of that. I know that the previous Government and this one have continued to do work in this area and I wonder whether he can report any further progress. I should like him to comment on whether he believes that the UK will be able to maintain a competitive edge in research in the years to come and whether he believes that the intention is to maximise large-scale patient recruitment.
Alongside that is the importance of site selection and the question of whether it is going to be easier for applicants in the future to conduct multi-centre research. My understanding is that one of the problems is that applications for multi-centre research have to go to the individual institutions concerned, which can sometimes hold up approval. My understanding is that there is going to be a concerted attempt to speed up that process. Again, if the noble Earl could give some comfort there, it would be much appreciated.
It is also important that the National Health Service recognises the importance of its role in supporting, developing and encouraging research. That is partly to do with the appointment of academic clinicians within the National Health Service, partly about a willingness to accept that it is important for clinicians to take part in research and also about the importance of ensuring that individual bodies in the NHS have good processes for offering opportunities for clinical trials. Any positive messages that the noble Earl could give on that would be appreciated.
On the private sector, if the Government are to develop a market in the NHS, what obligation will there be on private companies to maintain and support research if they win contracts to provide services to patients? I attended the launch of the Clinical Practice Research Datalink, at which the noble Earl spoke and which I thought was very impressive. How does he think this will link to the work of the Health Research Authority? I was very taken with the potential to use such a wide database of anonymised information, which the NHS can provide. The issue that arose from that debate and that launch is whether we are really able to make the most of the opportunity that is being given.
My final point brings me to value-based pricing. My understanding is that the Government still intend to introduce value-based pricing. I express again to the noble Earl my reservations about the impact of that on flexibility within the pharmaceutical industry and the pricing structure, which might then have an impact on their willingness to invest in R&D in this country. The Department of Health, I understand, is still a sponsor of the pharmaceutical industry. It is, of course, always torn; there is always a tension between the cost of drugs to the NHS and sponsorship of the industry. I hope that we are not going to see short-term decisions taken in relation to the cost of drugs at the expense of long-term investment in R&D in this country. Value-based pricing is a quite complex and technical subject, but it is important that there is transparency about the decisions that lie behind a move to value-based pricing and its likely impact on the UK as a whole, and not just the cost of drugs to the NHS. I beg to move.
Lord Turnberg
My Lords, the development of the Health Research Authority has been extremely welcome and the research community is very grateful that we have it; it has a number of very important roles in relation to the research ethics committees.
My questions relate to the extension of those functions as it plays out, because, of course, the Academy of Medical Sciences report expected this to apply to rather more than just the ethics committee; they relate to what is planned for it as it moves along. In particular, when is it likely that the ethical approval for the use of patient data—not anonymised data but unanonymised data, if there is such a word—which are currently with the Secretary of State, will come under the jurisdiction of the new authority? My noble friend Lord Hunt referred to the major hurdle that is put in the way of research and which takes time: the problem of getting approval from several health authorities or trusts. At that level, it is unclear whether the Health Research Authority will have any power over that process. I would like to hear more about what is intended for the future, now that we have it set up. I know that there are intentions and I would like to hear more about them.
Lord Patel
My Lords, my apologies to the Minister. I was not quick enough to get up. First, I welcome this order, which establishes the Health Research Authority. Like the noble Lords who have already spoken, I ask when we will have further legislation defining all the roles of the Health Research Authority. Can the noble Earl also confirm that this new authority will be required to give ethical approval to all research, no matter how it was funded? I am particularly keen to find out whether research that might be funded by individual trusts or, for that matter, by the department will also come under the ethical scrutiny of the Health Research Authority. Will the authority at this point be promoting research from the NHS, as the new NHS Act requires the foundation trusts and the commissioners to do?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, for setting out so helpfully the intended roles for the Health Research Authority, which, I think by common consent, is a very positive move forward. It has got off to a solid start. I am grateful to him as well for giving us the opportunity to debate these instruments. They are the second of three steps in the establishment of the Health Research Authority. They amend instruments, laid last year, that established the Health Research Authority in December 2011 as a special health authority with an executive board. That was the first step in fulfilling the Government’s commitment in the March 2011 Plan for Growth to create a new body to streamline the approvals for health research, following an independent review of health research regulation and governance by the Academy of Medical Sciences.
The Health Research Authority was initially constituted with an executive-only board to allow it to begin work quickly on its important agenda. We were able to make suitable interim ex officio appointments from among the initial staff who transferred in.
The instruments that we are debating today provide for the Health Research Authority to have a chair and non-officer members as well, so that it has greater independence and credibility to perform its functions for the purpose of protecting and promoting the interests of patients and the public in health research. That is the second step.
Baroness Emerton
My Lords, the conversation today has been limited to medical and health research. During the passage of the Bill, we had long debates about multiprofessional involvement being included in the research. I am very concerned that the conversation has been very much geared towards medical and health research and has not mentioned the fact that there are healthcare professionals other than those involved with medicine.
Earl Howe
The noble Baroness is right to draw attention to that omission in my coverage of these instruments. Of course, she is right that there are many different kinds of research that will involve the HRA in one form or another. I have emphasised only the medical and pharmaceutical elements of the HRA’s remit, because these matters were high up on the agenda of the Academy of Medical Sciences when it produced its report in the context of UK plc.
However, the noble Baroness should bear in mind my remarks about joining up health research and social care research. The HRA will co-operate with various bodies for the purposes of creating a unified approval process, not just for health research but to promote a consistent national system for research governance generally. Where this includes a social care or nursing element, the HRA will work closely with the relevant bodies to promote processes and standards that are consistent with the NHS and social care elements.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his positive response. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and my noble friend Lord Turnberg for taking part in this interesting debate. I believe that the appointment and development of the HRA is a positive move forward, and of course we support the appointment of a majority of non-execs. The Minister mentioned the appointment of a chair. I do not know whether that is yet in the public domain or whether he has the name to hand, but it would be helpful to know.
I welcome the publication of draft clauses on the establishment of the HRA as a non-departmental public body in due course.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I am happy to inform the Committee, for noble Lords who were unaware of it, that Professor Jonathan Montgomery was appointed chair of the HRA on 11 June, that interviews for non-exec directors will be held on Friday, that interviews for the substantive chief executive were held on 11 June, and that the other executive members will be appointed by the rest of the new board as soon as possible.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, that is very helpful. On the question of the reduction of the regulatory burden and the Minister’s reference to improving the cost-effectiveness of the whole process of approvals, that of course is welcome so long as patient consent and confidentiality are maintained and research is ethical. There is common agreement on that. I welcome his commitment to streamlining the approach in general for health research. I also welcome the decision by the devolved Administrations to encompass some of the work within the HRA, particularly the work of research ethics committees, which I assume will mean that cross-UK multi-centre trials will be subject to the streamlined process that the Minister has referred to.
On the role of the National Health Service in encouraging research, I take the noble Lord’s point about the NHS Commissioning Board’s statement of intent. I have no doubt that at that level Sir David and his colleagues will wish to support research. I am more concerned about the individual organisations in the NHS. I do not think that all NHS bodies quite realise the importance of research not only to patients but to UK plc. Anything that can be done to encourage the NHS to recognise that importance is vital. Sometimes that might mean the practicalities of recognising that their clinicians need time to take part in research activities. At a time when the NHS is having to find large efficiency savings, that may not always be welcome to chief execs of NHS organisations or to clinical commissioning groups. None the less, it would be disastrous if practising clinicians in particular were dissuaded or prevented from taking part in research activities. Again, messages on that matter from Ministers and the NHS Commissioning Board are vital.
Academic health science networks, particularly those outside London, are an important development. They will, I am sure, enhance research efforts. Again, the more support that can be given to them, the better. However, it is important that those networks focus on research—there has been some indication that almost everything about their intent is being put into the bath. One needs to come back to the fact that they are about enhancing our research capacity in the interests of the quality of patient services.
I agree with the Minister that the CPRD is a major step forward. We are uniquely attractive, but can we translate that into research money coming to the UK for what undoubtedly can be offered?
The Minister knows that I have always been sceptical about value-based pricing. He said that there was much to do. I urge him and his department to take their time on this matter. The PPRS allows industry flexibility to set the price within a profits cap. Although the UK is not a great purchaser of branded pharmaceuticals globally, the fact that it is able to set a price has an influence on price throughout Europe. My concern is that taking that away might have an impact on industry’s willingness to invest in R&D in this country, given that we so are slow to take up innovative new medicines. We developed NICE to encourage the health service to do that, and it is still a struggle because unfortunately the default position of the NHS and of clinicians is to be slow to invest in and agree to innovation.
If value-based pricing can encourage the NHS towards innovation in the way that the Minister suggests, that is of course to be welcomed. However, looking more generally at the impact of research, we do not seem yet to have a philosophy that goes hard on innovation where it can definitely improve the quality and outcome of patient care. That is to do partly with the conservative nature of clinicians in the UK and partly, probably, with the mindset of finance directors in the NHS. I know that the noble Earl is the Minister for Innovation and that he is wrestling with those issues. It is very important when we look at both research and value-based pricing that we encourage the NHS as both commissioner and provider to do everything that it can to take advantage of the huge amount of innovation that takes place in this country on the back of a fantastic resource in life sciences, in our universities and in the medical devices industry. Overall, we have had a very good debate and I am glad to support these statutory instruments.
Health Research Authority (Establishment and Constitution) Amendment Order 2012
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
That the Grand Committee takes note of the Health Research Authority (Establishment and Constitution) Amendment Order 2012 (SI 2012/1109).
Gambling Act 2005 (Amendment of Schedule 6) Order 2012
(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Rawlings
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Gambling Act 2005 (Amendment of Schedule 6) Order 2012.
Relevant documents: 1st Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, the legislation that we are considering here this afternoon is concerned with Schedule 6 to the Gambling Act 2005, which lists the sports governing bodies and regulatory bodies with which the Gambling Commission may exchange information. The order under scrutiny is intended, first, to add a number of new organisations to the list so as to widen the range of sports covered, and, secondly, to update the list.
The British general public is well accustomed to betting on sport. Sophisticated legal betting markets currently operate through traditional outlets such as bookmakers and betting shops, and by remote means through the internet and by telephone. The main responsibility for the collection and collation of intelligence relating to suspicious sports betting rests with the Gambling Commission, specifically through its sports betting intelligence unit. The commission undertakes investigations into suspected criminal activity in its own right and in collaboration with the police, and it has a range of investigative powers to enable this work.
Exchange of information between the Gambling Commission and sports governing bodies is essential to the fight against sports betting corruption, which is harmful both to sport itself and to the associated sports and betting markets, as it allows suspicious betting patterns to be identified and dealt with in order to avoid or prevent match fixing. The mechanism for this is provided by the Gambling Act 2005, where Schedule 6 lists a range of sports governing bodies and regulatory organisations for the purpose of exchanging information with the Gambling Commission. Information can be exchanged with organisations not included in Schedule 6, but such cases require individual legal opinions that take time and are expensive. Unless the organisations are listed on the schedule, there is also a limit to the information the Gambling Commission can pass on in such cases.
The order under scrutiny this afternoon adds to the list of sports governing bodies with which the Gambling Commission can exchange information, so as to widen the scope of its coverage and strengthen its response to sports betting integrity threats wherever the need should arise. There is also some simple tidying work to update the list to reflect changes in the organisational structure and names of some sports and regulatory organisations that are currently on the schedule but are no longer correct.
I do not propose to list the changes here—these are evident in the order—but I shall briefly set out the broad rationale behind the changes. Before I do, though, let me just say that I fully appreciate the strong feelings that some noble Lords may have about sports integrity and betting corruption. There are, of course, many wider concerns raised by this subject, all of which deserve thorough examination, but that must be for another time. Given the time constraints on us today, I fear that we would not be able to do these concerns justice.
The impetus for this review stems from the International Olympic Committee’s request that it be added to Schedule 6 in advance of the London 2012 Games in case threats to betting integrity should arise during the Games. I stress that no specific illegal betting threat to the Games has been identified, but the Government agreed with the IOC that it was sensible to take such a precaution. Should such an incident occur, it could be most damaging to the reputation of both the United Kingdom and the 2012 Olympic Games.
As the list of sports governing bodies in Schedule 6 has not been updated since the Gambling Act was drafted, now is also a good time to add other relevant national and international governing bodies in order to ensure better coverage of the main sports in the UK and to better reflect the sports governing bodies with which the Gambling Commission now regularly deals.
The amendments that we are looking at today include a range of UK sports governing bodies covering bowls, darts, squash, hockey, motor sports and the London marathon. Your Lordships may not immediately associate these sports with the possibility of betting corruption, and I stress again that there is no immediate concern in these areas. This is really an exercise in crystal ball gazing and trying to anticipate where any risk to sports integrity might arise in the future. The inclusion of these governing bodies is based on the advice of the Gambling Commission, which has undertaken a thorough risk analysis that draws greatly on the experience and knowledge of its Sports Betting Intelligence Unit.
Noble Lords will also note that the amendments include a number of international sports governing bodies. These go beyond just the International Olympic Committee to cover football, rugby, tennis, snooker, cricket and athletics, among others. Again, their inclusion is based on the advice of the Gambling Commission. Its Sports Betting Intelligence Unit has up to now liaised with a lot of the international sports governing bodies’ equivalents—for example, FIFA, UEFA and the ICC—on betting integrity cases. It therefore makes sense to include these bodies in the list. The sports they govern should be represented by domestic sports governing bodies; it would none the less be useful to have their international equivalents included.
Finally, it is very sad that betting provides an opportunity and incentive to corrupt sport. This may result in the inappropriate use of inside information or interference with the outcome of an event. In turn, this can have an impact on the public’s confidence in the fairness of sporting results. As the betting market develops and the range of betting opportunities increases, it is right that we look to the future to make certain that the response mechanism is fit for purpose and addresses such threats, should they arise. These amendments are a proactive means of strengthening this response mechanism. The ability of the commission and a sports governing body to respond to a sports betting integrity threat at a faster pace is crucial. We sincerely hope that this will result in a lower incidence of gambling corruption and a more managed response to any match-fixing scandal that occurs. This, in turn, can give the public the reassurance they need about the fairness of any sporting contest.
I look forward to the debate and to your Lordships’ contributions. I commend the order to the Committee.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her explanation of the proposed changes to Schedule 6. In response, I begin by making it clear that we absolutely share the Government’s determination to crack down on illegal gambling and to work with the Gambling Commission to root out organised criminal behaviour and illegal payments to sports men and women. The UK currently has an unrivalled reputation for high standards of integrity in sport and it is in all our interests to keep it that way.
We also acknowledge the important role that legitimate UK betting companies play in creating jobs and contributing to the economy. With this in mind, we understand that the lists of individual sports and the sports governing bodies covered by the requirements to exchange information with the Gambling Commission will need to be updated and refreshed from time to time. We also support this approach, which is in keeping with the spirit of the Act, rather than the alternative option, which was to introduce broad classifications of those covered by the Act.
However, I have a couple of questions that I hope the Minister will be able to deal with. First, as a general point, she said that she did not want to talk about wider gambling issues, but we know that the sports betting industry is increasingly moving offshore and online, with an estimated value globally of over £200 billion. The steps that we are taking today with this schedule mean very little if we do not effectively regulate the global online gambling market. I know that the Minister, John Penrose, announced in July last year that proposals would be brought forward to legislate on remote gambling, so can the Minister update us on the progress of these proposals and when we are likely to be able to consider them in this House?
Secondly, with the London Olympics imminent and the obvious need to maintain the reputation of British sports as relatively corruption-free, we do not have a problem with adding the International Olympic Committee to the list of organisations with which the Gambling Commission will liaise, but how will these new links work alongside any information that is already shared with LOCOG and the British Olympic Committee? Will the IOC have a responsibility to alert them to any investigations that it is pursuing, and is there a clear demarcation in responsibilities between the umbrella sports bodies and the individual sports governing bodies? How will they ensure that they are all kept in the loop?
Is it clear who has the prime responsibility for investigating allegations of betting corruption and illegal payments? Will it be made clear to the new bodies that are being added to the schedule that they will need to have a list of betting rules in place to enable them to investigate and take action against those breaching the rules? Has any thought been given to the additional resources that those individual sports will need to police their sports effectively, particularly during the intense period of the Olympic Games themselves?
After the Olympics are over, what will be the ongoing relationship between the Gambling Commission and the IOC as preparations are made for the next Games in 2016? Will the commission’s jurisdiction continue to be limited to activities within the UK’s borders, or will it be expected to play a wider role in sharing global information in the run-up to Rio? Moreover, I understand the need to form links with the international sports bodies, but are the relationships and responsibilities formally set out in some kind of agreement? Inevitably, the more bodies that are added to the Gambling Commission’s list of organisations that it liaises with, the more scope there is for confusion between the roles. Will the Minister reassure me that these are clearly defined?
I cannot help speculating about the need to include bowls in the list of sports with which the Gambling Commission will exchange information in future. The Minister said that there were no obvious or known incidents of corrupt betting in all the organisations that are going to be added, but is there any regular betting at all in bowls? Has the bowling governing body signed up to being regulated in this way? Inevitably, after all, this has responsibilities and implications for that body, if only in the filling out of regulatory forms and so on. It all seems a long way from the rather gentle image of local bowls clubs up and down the country that we know and love.
Those are my only questions, which are points of detail. I reiterate that we broadly support the thrust of what the order and the revised schedule seek to achieve, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, for her thoughtful contribution on the amendment to Schedule 6. I shall start by trying to answer the several relevant and constructive questions that she asked. She mentioned the remote gambling proposals, which Mr John Penrose announced in Parliament last July. As noble Lords are only too aware, the legislative programme is very full and we are pursuing all options, but I reassure the noble Baroness that the Government are committed to these proposals. I am sure she understands that I cannot give her an exact date.
The noble Baroness asked several questions about the process involved for the London Olympic Games in July 2012 and the new links. The responsibility for betting issues in the Games will come under the Joint Assessment Unit, which consists of the IOC, the Gambling Commission and the Metropolitan Police. LOCOG will not be part of the assessment process but will be involved in any communication activity involving the media.
On investigations, the information disclosed to the BOA, LOCOG and anyone else involved will be on a case-by-case basis and will depend on the nature of the incident and the assessments carried out by the Joint Assessment Unit. Once it becomes clear that an incident is likely to be reported in the media, the IOC will lead the communications strategy on sports betting integrity issues.
As with all cases, the Gambling Commission will inform the relevant national or international sports governing body. All domestic sports governing bodies have responsibility for issues within their remit, but if the investigation becomes cross-border it is likely that the international body will intervene. For example, FIFA has intervened on match-fixing issues in several European football leagues.
If a potential threat is identified, the Joint Assessment Unit will support the IOC or the police in deciding whether further action is justified. If an investigation is required, the Joint Assessment Unit will decide who will take the lead. It is possible that both a criminal investigation and a sports investigation will run simultaneously, depending on the nature of the potential incident.
The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, was concerned about the future. Looking beyond London 2012, the Gambling Commission’s jurisdiction extends only to Great Britain, but the addition of the IOC to Schedule 6 will continue to allow the sharing of appropriate information in the run-up to the 2016 Games in Rio, which the noble Baroness asked about, and beyond. The Gambling Commission’s sports betting integrity unit will be involved with the new sports governing bodies that are added to Schedule 6 and will advise them of the need to have some form of betting rules in place, although there is no obligation to do so.
The sports betting integrity unit has developed good working relationships with several international sports governing bodies, including FIFA, UEFA and the ICC. Memoranda of understanding have been set up to facilitate information sharing, but these are subject to Data Protection Act rules and are not legally binding. Finally, I am not certain whether the noble Baroness is a bowls player but there has been a sports betting integrity case in relation to bowls and it was therefore included in the schedule. No additional resources will be required by the sports governing bodies.
These amendments are not just about making certain that the Government fulfil the International Olympic Committee’s request that sports betting should be included in Schedule 6 to the Gambling Act. It is a wider commitment; the Gambling Act is the principle mechanism through which the sports betting market can be monitored for irregular betting patterns, allowing the relevant enforcement authorities to tackle criminal sports corruption effectively. There might be concerns from some noble Lords here today about potential burdens arising from an expansion of the list, so I seek to reassure the noble Baroness and other noble Lords that no new burdens will be created by these amendments. In fact, these amendments will reduce the burden on the Gambling Commission, as costly legal advice will no longer need to be sought in relation to the organisations in Schedule 6, and the process of dealing with such cases will be speeded up considerably.
Following the noble Baroness’s contributions today, I sense that we are united in trying to make the world of sport a fairer place. The amendments to Schedule 6 will further the ultimate aim of protecting the integrity of sport, as well as the sports market and sports gambling market interests associated with it. They will continue to make sport enjoyable both for those participating in it and for those watching it.
Motion agreed.
Community Right to Challenge (Fire and Rescue Authorities and Rejection of Expressions of Interest) (England) Regulations 2012
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Baroness Hanham
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Community Right to Challenge (Fire and Rescue Authorities and Rejection of Expressions of Interest) (England) Regulations 2012.
Relevant documents: 1st Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)
My Lords, the regulations extend the definition of “relevant authority” to include fire and rescue authorities in provisions in the Localism Act relating to the community right to challenge. They also set out the grounds on which an authority may reject an expression of interest. The community right to challenge allows voluntary and community groups, parish councils and authority staff to submit an expression of interest to take over provision of local authority services.
I shall speak first to Regulation 3, which adds fire and rescue authorities as relevant authorities. The Localism Act specifies relevant authorities as,
“a county council in England … a district council … a London borough council, or … such other person or body carrying on functions of a public nature as the Secretary of State may specify by regulations”.
Some fire and rescue authorities already fall within the definition of “relevant authority” by virtue of being a county council. These regulations provide consistency by adding fire and rescue authorities as relevant authorities.
The Government consulted on the detail of the community right to challenge between February and May 2011, saying that they were minded to extend the definition of “relevant authority” to include fire and rescue authorities. Fifty-eight per cent of those who responded agreed with this proposal. Of those who did not agree that fire and rescue authorities should be added as relevant authorities, the most frequently expressed concerns were the risks to people’s safety, the quality of service, and losing strategic overview. Relatively few responses were received from fire and rescue authorities. In light of this, further discussions were held with fire sector representatives. The sector was broadly supportive. The main concerns were that many aspects of fire provision might be less efficient and more costly if they were subject to challenge.
We have carefully considered the responses to the consultation as well as views gathered from further discussions with fire sector bodies. Many aspects of fire provision are functions rather than services and are therefore outside the scope of the community right to challenge. Fire and rescue authorities will remain the body accountable for the discharge of their functions. They will therefore be able to make appropriate provision during the procurement exercise and, in agreeing contractual arrangements, to ensure that relevant services are delivered to appropriate standards and quality. The community right to challenge will not override other legislation such as the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004, which requires, for example, those carrying out certain core activities to be firefighters.
A second aspect of these regulations is that they make provision for a relevant authority to reject an expression of interest if it considers that the relevant body would not be suitable to deliver the service, or if the authority considers that acceptance of the expression of interest is likely to lead to a contravention of an enactment or other rule of law or a breach of statutory duty.
Regulation 4, as implied in the title, specifies grounds on which an expression of interest may be rejected. The Localism Act 2011 states that an expression of interest may be rejected only on one or more grounds specified in regulations. These regulations relate to the requirements for expressions of interest contained in the Community Right to Challenge (Expressions of Interest and Excluded Services) (England) Regulations 2012, which have been laid and are subject to the negative procedure. In the consultation exercise, which was discussed earlier, the majority of respondents agreed with the proposed grounds for rejection. The grounds listed in these regulations are broadly the same as those consulted upon and the changes proposed in the policy statement deposited in the House Library on 8 September 2011.
Ground 5, which allows for the continued integration of relevant services and NHS services where this is critical to the well-being of persons, and Ground 8, which allows for the continuation of a process towards mutualisation of services, are new and I shall explain them further in a moment.
Regulation 4 specifies the grounds on which an authority may reject an expression of interest. There are 10 but I shall not go through them all in detail. Ground 1 is perfunctory and is that the expression of interest does not comply with the requirements in the Act.
Ground 2 is designed to ensure that authorities have sufficient information to reach a decision on an expression of interest and that the information in an expression of interest is accurate. These requirements include, for example, information about the body’s financial resources and its ability to provide the service, and how the outcomes it proposes to deliver promote or improve the social value of the authority area and meet service user needs. They also require information about the relevant service sufficient to identify it. Authority employees must also detail how they propose to engage other employees affected by the expression of interest.
Ground 3 allows for an expression of interest to be rejected if, based on the information requirements for expressions of interest, an authority considers that a relevant body is not suitable to provide the relevant service. The determination of whether a group is a suitable body to provide a service is restricted to the information in expressions of interest, which I have read out.
A number of grounds allow established processes to continue to fruition or decisions to be implemented. They include: where the authority has taken a decision, evidenced in writing, to stop providing a service; where a procurement exercise is already under way; where the relevant authority and a third party have entered into negotiations for provision of the relevant service; and where the relevant authority has published its intention to consider the provision of the relevant service by a body that two or more specified employees of that authority propose to establish. Those are Grounds 6, 7 and 8.
Ground 5 provides a right for a relevant authority to exercise discretion in such cases of integrated provision of health and social care services where continued integration is critical in order to protect the service user.
Finally, Grounds 9 and 10 safeguard against authorities having to carry out procurement exercises if the authority considers that an expression of interest is frivolous or vexatious or if acceptance is likely to lead to a breach of another rule of law or statutory duty.
The new community right to challenge provided for in the Localism Act 2011 is an important part of this Government’s decentralisation agenda. It is intended to hand the initiative to voluntary and community groups, parish councils, charities and authority staff who believe they can run authority services differently and better, giving their good ideas a fair hearing and, provided those ideas stand up to scrutiny, giving them a chance to bid to take over the running of those services.
It was this Government’s view that although these groups can wait until authorities carry out procurement exercises and bid according to pre-specified requirements, that was not community empowerment. This new right is not simply about transferring service provision from one body to another but about handing the initiative to communities to put forward their ideas for how they could run services in ways that are different or better.
Finally, these regulations, together with the Community Right to Challenge (Expressions of Interest and Excluded Services) (England) Regulations 2012, will complete this coalition Government’s promise to introduce a community right to challenge. They will allow relevant authorities to reject expressions of interest on the specified grounds. They also provide for continuity across fire and rescue authorities that are already relevant authorities, by virtue of being local authorities, and those that are not. I commend these regulations to the Grand Committee.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her very full explanation of this order. As the noble Baroness has said, this is in a sense an affirmative order, which has come before us in parallel with a negative order. I have a couple of questions on that order, which I am going to tuck away at the end of my presentation, and I hope that she will be able to deal with them. In a way, this is a return to the Localism Act, which I thought was going to be just a happy memory but clearly is not. I have some questions for the Minister, which is how I would like to deal with this matter.
First, have any other bodies or persons been specified, or are they planned to be specified, under Section 81(2)(d) of the Localism Act 2011? This affirmative order, as the noble Baroness has said, is about the fire and rescue authorities, some of which are already included because they are county councils. I would like to understand a little better the relationship between functions and services and excluded activities. Perhaps I can take her back to paragraphs 2.4, 2.5 and 2.6 of the consultation to which she referred.
Paragraph 2.4 says that certain services are required,
“to be delivered by the authority. These will not be subject to the Community Right to Challenge, and will be listed as excluded services in regulations”.
Paragraph 2.5 says:
“For example, in relation to Fire and Rescue, the 2004 Fire and Rescue Services Act effectively requires that certain core activities are specifically delivered by employees of Fire and Rescue Authorities, some of which are the County Council … The following activities will be excluded from the Community Right to Challenge”.
Those activities concern employing,
“firefighters to put out fires and undertake rescues from fires”,
and how,
“Fire and Rescue Authorities respond to road accidents—fire-fighters undertake this role, jointly with fire fighting”.
Can we have some clarity as to whether these activities are excluded because they are specified in some regulation or because they are deemed to be functions and therefore outwith the right to challenge in the first place under the primary legislation?
Paragraph 2.6 states:
“There may also be other reasons why there is a case for excluding particular activities from the Community Right to Challenge. This may relate to those integrated with services that are excluded due to existing legislation, such as Fire and Rescue Authorities responding to other emergencies, including collapsed buildings and hazardous materials”.
Again, is that within the scope of the community right to challenge under this order or is it excluded? If it is excluded, is that because it is specifically excluded somewhere or because it is deemed to be a function and therefore not within the scope of the primary legislation?
All this is leading me to try to get a much clearer idea of the services that are likely to be within the scope of the order. If these other activities, one way or another, are excluded, what is included? Perhaps the noble Baroness can give us one or two more specific examples of that. If the issue of fire and rescue authorities dealing with emergencies such as collapsed buildings and hazardous materials are not automatically outwith the scope of the order and are therefore potentially within the operation of the community right to challenge, can the noble Baroness specify why those particular activities have been included? It was clearly thought during the consultation that they would be excluded. They are obviously very important and, in some respects, highly technical services.
On grounds for rejection, the noble Baroness referred to paragraph 3. What happens if there are changes in the consortium or changes in subcontractors during the course of a contract? Is that simply a matter that has to be dealt with within the contractual arrangements, or are there other provisions which enable a rethink or review in those circumstances?
Paragraph 5, to which the Minister referred, is something with which we instinctively agree, but can we hear a little more about the specific type of services which are envisaged being excluded under that paragraph?
Paragraph 7 is, presumably, in part about making sure that what is being conducted is evidenced. It talks about it being committed in writing. Would the position not be the same if, although not actually committed in writing, there was some other evidence that suggested that there was a negotiation under way?
What is the position if a community right to challenge involved, as might well happen, the disproportionate cost of a procurement activity? I can see nothing specific in the order which would take that, of itself, outside the scope. Similarly, what about repeated challenges? Each one might not, of itself, be frivolous or vexatious; indeed, they might come in a succession of challenges from different organisations or consortia. Is there not, or should there not, be provision, which says: enough is enough, we have had, within this time period, too many challenges under these provisions and this is consuming a lot of important and valuable time? I understand that there is no appeals process, because a lot of this is the judgment of the relevant authority, and I think that that is the right thing to do, but presumably it does not preclude the authority from acting reasonably, because there would be other legal challenges if it did not.
The noble Baroness referred to the consultation and the paucity of responses from fire and rescue sector respondents. I think that only six responded positively in favour of these authorities becoming relevant authorities. The noble Baroness referred to consultation with representatives of the sector. Was the Fire Brigades Union one of the consultees in that process?
I refer finally to the negative order which has been brought out in parallel, because the clock is ticking, if we are to do something by way of a take note or other Motion; we have to think carefully about that. Paragraph 7.18 of the Explanatory Memorandum, refers to the exclusion from community right to challenge of,
“services that are: jointly commissioned by a relevant authority and the NHS; that are commissioned pursuant to a partnership arrangement between the NHS and a relevant authority; or are commissioned by the NHS on behalf of a relevant authority”.
That is only until 1 April 2014, as the Explanatory Note to the order says—namely, during the critical period of major changes to the NHS commissioning architecture. My specific question is on what basis it is considered that the deadline of 1 April 2014 is sufficient for those other arrangements to bed in.
Paragraph 7.10 talks about the requirement to carry out a procurement exercise if the relevant authority accepts an expression of interest. I do not think that anywhere in the arrangements the cost itself—I refer to it in relation to the other instrument—would be a reason in itself for rejecting an expression of interest from a relevant authority. I would be grateful if the Minister could deal with those matters. Our full support for these instruments depends in part on understanding the scope of what remains within them for fire and rescue authorities and what is outside for one reason or another.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his usual searching questions and being well briefed. I start with the provision that fire and rescue services and any other public body could be included, but they are not at the moment. Beyond the fire and rescue authorities, other public bodies could be included if that seemed right, but that would have to come through in regulations. We would consider such an extension, which could also include an extension to central government services; so this could be widened. We know that a number of respondents to the consultation supported the extension to implement the right as currently constituted. I hope that that covers that.
On what would be subject to challenge, as I am sure the noble Lord appreciates, fire and emergency services are subject to primary legislation, part of which says that fires must be fought by recognised firefighters. Anything that would be suitable for a contract or a bid would be outside that, unless some form of mutualisation were being considered. That would mean something such as procurement and the maintenance of fire appliances, training, emergency call handling, IT or administration. Those are the areas where the challenge could be effective and could take place.
The noble Lord asked whether the Fire Brigades Union was a consultee. The consultation was open to all interested parties, which included the union. It did not respond, but as I said in my opening remarks, because it did not the department went out to further consultation with the fire brigades and their representatives, and they were broadly supportive of what was being considered.
On the reasons for rejection, vexatious rejections can include expressions of interest on the grounds of being frivolous or vexatious, and that can be interpreted quite widely. If something was considered to be being put forward without very good grounds, it could probably be rejected on that basis.
Right at the end of his remarks, the noble Lord asked whether costs could be taken into account once a bid had been put forward. My gut reaction is that it is only an expression of interest at that stage; it is not a bid with a fully worked-out contract. If there is an application or consideration that a voluntary organisation could do the job better, having put forward the bid, as it is entitled to do, at the next procurement, either triggered by that or at the normal stage, it would be invited to put a bid forward and the costs would then have to be taken into account. Clearly, if it was not competitive, it would not win the bid.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
As I understand it, if there is an expression of interest, the relevant authority has either to accept it or to reject it on some grounds. If there are no grounds for rejection but the cost of a procurement exercise might be wholly disproportionate to the service sought, that of itself does not seem to be a reason to reject the offer. If it is, perhaps the noble Baroness can explain within which of the provisions it is covered.
Baroness Hanham
As I understand it, the cost to the authority of accepting a bid is not covered, because this is a challenge that triggers a procurement exercise, and the procurement exercise would include other bids from other people; so it would be a normal tendering process. The cost of that would be normal expenditure. Am I missing the point?
Lord McKenzie of Luton
With respect, if the bid were rejected in the first place, procurement costs would not arise. That is the point that I am pressing. If there are no other reasons to reject the bid and there therefore has to be a procurement exercise incurring costs, the pass is sold. Should the potential costs of procurement themselves be a reason to be able to reject the offer?
Baroness Hanham
The answer to that, on projected costs, is no, because, as I said at the outset, the initial challenge is on the standard or quality of service. The question of cost would come subsequently when the bid was being considered. I am hearing much from my officials behind me. Is that correct? They think that it is, unless I misunderstood the noble Lord’s question. If that is not correct, I will come back to it.
This note gives me the other side of the story. The procurement exercise might actually lead to savings for the authority. We are still on the same level. Any cost to the authority comes if and when the procurement process takes place. The cost to the bidder or the local authority at the challenge stage is not taken into account. I think that that is all right.
The noble Lord also asked whether, once a bid has been put in process and contracted by a consortium, any change to the consortium would affect the contract. As with any other contract, it would jeopardise the contract. It cannot just change people mid ship. I think that one issue behind this is concern that a voluntary organisation could put forward a bid and then end up being hijacked or taken on by a bigger company. The answer is no, we have to take it as it starts. If there were any changes to that, the contract would have to be dealt with.
On the National Health Service and the 24-month time-limited exemption, only a short deferral to 2014 is being asked for to enable the new National Health Service commissioners—both the clinical commissioners and the NHS commissioning boards—sufficient time to bed in, because they are not bedded in yet. Subsequently, contracts will need to be considered and, if need be, retendered. The NHS also needs to develop relationships, including with co-commissioners and providers or potential providers. That time gap will enable it to do that. Without it, the NHS may not have the capacity to do everything that is being asked of it and there could be considerable disruption to the system if a procurement exercise has to be undertaken within that period. That is the reason for the delay.
Any social care or health-related service provided by a relevant authority in its own right will be included as services. That includes children and adult mental health services, including those associated with dementia and learning disabilities. If they are integrated with health services, continued integration is critical. Therefore, they can be challenged as well. I hope that that covers the noble Lord’s questions.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
On potential repeat processes under the community right to challenge from different people but in succession, does there comes a point whereby the accumulation of having to deal with them of itself ought to be a reason to say, “Look, hang on. There ought to be a pause. We cannot forever go through this process.”?
Baroness Hanham
A series of bids would automatically trigger a procurement process so that they could be taken into account.
Baroness Hanham
We will go through that again. I think that I have answered most questions but if I have not got the right emphasis on anything, I will come back to the noble Lord.
Terrorism Act 2000 (Codes of Practice for the Exercise of Stop and Search Powers) Order 2012
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Henley
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Terrorism Act 2000 (Codes of Practice for the Exercise of Stop and Search Powers) Order 2012.
Relevant documents: 2nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)
My Lords, in moving this Motion, I shall speak also to the next three Motions standing in my name on the Order Paper, which I shall move in their proper place at the appropriate time. I will explain, in turn, all the orders, which were laid before Parliament on 10 May 2012.
The Terrorism Act 2000 (Codes of Practice for the Exercise of Stop and Search Powers) Order 2012 reflects a recommendation in the Government’s review of counterterrorism and security powers, published in January 2011. The review recommended that stop and search powers under Sections 44 to 47 of the Terrorism Act 2000, which allowed police officers to stop and search persons without any reasonable suspicion that the person was a terrorist, should be repealed and replaced with a more focused power.
Section 47A of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 provides for a considerably more stringent test to be met before a police officer of ACPO rank may authorise the exercise of powers to stop and search persons and vehicles without reasonable suspicion. In effect, the Act places the powers provided by the Terrorism Act 2000 (Remedial) Order 2011 on a permanent footing. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 also amends the counterterrorism stop and search powers in the Terrorism Act 2000, which require reasonable suspicion to enable searches of vehicles or their occupants.
The codes of practice, which govern the use of terrorism stop and search powers in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, set out detailed requirements for the making of an authorisation and the exercise of the powers. They reflect the significantly greater thresholds for the use of the powers and reflect lessons from the experience of the now repealed Section 44 powers.
The new stop and search powers, and the robust statutory framework provided by these codes, provide the police with the powers they need to protect the public while ensuring that there are robust safeguards to prevent a return to the previous excessive use of stop and search without suspicion.
The next two orders—the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 (Code of Practice for the Video Recording with Sound of Post-Charge Questioning) Order 2012 and the Terrorism Act 2000 (Video Recording with Sound of Interviews and Associated Code of Practice) Order 2012—also reflect a recommendation from the Government’s review of counterterrorism powers. That review recommended that the provisions contained in the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 which enable the post-charge questioning of terrorist suspects should be commenced. This could help in individual prosecutions and may encourage terrorists who have been arrested and charged to assist investigations. The Act requires that any post-charge interviews of suspects must be video-recorded with sound and that a code of practice must be issued to provide guidance on that recording. It also provides that the relevant PACE codes of practice must make provision for post-charge questioning.
Accordingly, we are revising the relevant PACE codes and introducing a new code of practice for the video-recording with sound of interviews of individuals detained in respect of terrorism or terrorism-related offences. We have decided, as an additional safeguard, to require that interviews conducted pre-charge under Section 41 of the Terrorism Act 2000 should also be video-recorded, as should interviews under Schedule 7 to that Act. This reflects a commitment made by the previous Government during the passage of the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008. If the House approves these codes, we will commence the substantive powers shortly afterwards.
Lastly, the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Codes of Practice) (Revision of Codes C, G and H) Order 2012 is also before the Committee. This order makes changes to the PACE codes of practice relating to detention, treatment and questioning in Code C, power of arrest in Code G, and the detention, treatment and questioning of suspected terrorists in Code H.
Other than the changes to Code H relating to post-charge questioning, which I have already alluded to, the most significant changes to Codes C and H relate to two areas: increasing safeguards in the procedure to be followed by the police where a detainee changes their mind about wanting legal advice, and clarifying what the custody officer can delegate to other staff in order to help the efficient operation of custody suites, along with a number of other changes to reduce the administrative burden on custody officers and staff.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation and for information on the four orders before us today. For most of my research on this matter, I felt at a distinct disadvantage. I hope that the comments that I am about to make do not become a regular feature of our debates in Grand Committee or on the Floor of the House, but I have to say that the Home Office website really is a disgrace. I understand that it has not been accessible since we returned from Recess. I have been unable to access via the website either the codes of practice or the consultation; nor have I been able to respond to the consultation. My questions will therefore have to reflect the paucity of information that I have been able to obtain.
I know that the Minister likes to be helpful and his private office contacted me to say that it would look into this matter, for which I was grateful. I was grateful, too, to the parliamentary adviser at the Home Office, who was able to send some information to us. However, he was unable to access it until today—it came over at 1.55 pm. There were 356 pages. I can read pretty fast, but not that fast. I hope that the Minister can take my comments back, because it would have been helpful to have information on the significant changes being made, albeit in a digested form, and a summary of responses to the consultation. It would be helpful to have that information always made available if it is not going to be available on the website. I hope that some mighty experts will resolve this matter; otherwise, as I have threatened previously, I will phone the Minister on a Sunday afternoon to get the information that I need while I am working on these issues.
We agree with tighter restrictions on stop and search. As I think the Minister knows, and as my colleagues have said in the other place, the powers were being used more widely than originally intended in the legislation. Indeed, former Home Secretary Alan Johnson had already taken some action in that area and provisional data had shown quite a significant drop in the number of stop-and-search cases from 2009 to 2010. We support sensible measures that will bring the legislation more closely into line with the original intention behind stop and search.
I have some specific questions—as I said, I was unable to obtain a copy of the consultation and have only the Explanatory Notes to work from. If the Minister does not have answers to them, I will be very happy for him to write to me with the information. The noble Lord said that there were 11 responses in the Explanatory Notes, of which the majority were in favour. Who were these responses from, since some but obviously not all of them were listed, and which organisations were not in favour or had objections to the changes being made? What issues did they raise with their concerns and what changes were made to the draft order following the consultation responses that came in?
Turning to the other two orders on counterterrorism and video recording, again, can the Minister say something about the issues raised in the consultations? I have the consultation responses on the code of practice on Codes C, G and H but not specifically on video recording, although there is some information in there. There is obviously a crossover. However, if other issues were raised, by whom were they raised and what changes were made to these two specific orders on video recording as a result of the consultation responses?
On the Police and Criminal Evidence Act order, I would like to commend those who were able to get some good information for the shadow Ministers who are looking at these issues. I was pleased to see a number of points being taken on board, particularly when potentially vulnerable people are being questioned and on mental health issues. A lot of the representations that were made in response to the consultation were taken on board. I hope the Minister understands that I feel rather limited, given the lack of information available. If that could be resolved for future orders and if he can answer my questions either now or in writing, that would be appreciated.
Lord Henley
My Lords, I start with an abject apology on behalf of both myself and the Home Office in response to the noble Baroness’s complaints about the website. I have raised it within the department but I will now go back to it. The first thing I had better do is find out which of us five junior Ministers has responsibility for the website, if any at all, and make sure that one of us looks personally at these problems to ensure that we can sort it out. Obviously, the noble Baroness should not have to wait until 1.55 pm today to get the information that she needs to deal with these matters.
It might also be worth my while offering the noble Baroness my home and mobile numbers so that she can get hold of me in Cumberland on a Sunday afternoon. I will tell her whether I will be available on future Sundays on an ad hoc basis, so that she can occasionally discuss these things. Again, I hope that the noble Baroness will get hold of me in my office whenever she is going to have specific problems because, as she knows from her own extensive experience in government, these matters can very often be resolved by talking about them beforehand. Similarly, if she comes through my office I am always more than happy to arrange a briefing for her to make sure that these things happen. This is a complete apology with my and the department’s mea culpa. We will try to resolve these matters.
Having said that, I was grateful for what I suspect is her and the Official Opposition’s general support for the line down which we are going on these matters. However, I appreciate that she has a number of fairly detailed questions about how we adjusted things as a result of the consultation, who was in favour and who opposed and, on the video recording, the responses to the consultation and what changes we made. On stop and search, the changes were limited as we had previously consulted on a similar remedial code of practice order. These changes related to removing references to random searches, and there was further advice on photography issues.
At this stage, it would probably be better for me to offer to write in greater detail to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, giving fuller, further and better particulars of these matters so that we can get all this right. I note the Official Opposition’s general support for what we are doing, but obviously we have to resolve many more detailed points. Having said that, I hope the noble Baroness will allow me to move this order, and to offer, first, my apology again and, secondly, the guarantee that I will write to her with fuller and better details on the consultation.
Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 (Code of Practice for the Video Recording with Sound of Post-Charge Questioning) Order 2012
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Henley
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 (Code of Practice for the Video Recording with Sound of Post-Charge Questioning) Order 2012.
Relevant documents: 2nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
Terrorism Act 2000 (Video Recording with Sound of Interviews and Associated Code of Practice) Order 2012
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Henley
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Terrorism Act 2000 (Video Recording with Sound of Interviews and Associated Code of Practice) Order 2012.
Relevant documents: 2nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Codes of Practice) (Revision of Codes C, G and H) Order 2012
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Henley
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Codes of Practice) (Revision of Codes C, G and H) Order 2012.
Relevant documents: 2nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 (Controlled Activity and Prescribed Criteria) Regulations 2012
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Henley
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 (Controlled Activity and Prescribed Criteria) Regulations 2012.
Relevant documents: 2nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)
My Lords, the measures in these draft instruments flow in the main from the changes to the barring arrangements in the Protection of Freedoms Act, which received Royal Assent at the end of the previous Session. The second Motion, the draft order, does three things. First, it revokes previous provisions on the definition of regulated activity that are no longer meaningful in view of the new definition of regulated activity. In 2009, Ministers specified that those who provide treatment to a child or vulnerable adult, but not as the main purpose of their contact with that person, would not be within regulated activity. Such activity will not be within the new definition of regulated activity, so the exception is no longer required. The draft order also revokes a previous exception to the definition of “vulnerable adult”, because the definition of “vulnerable adult” is removed by the Protection of Freedoms Act.
Secondly, the draft order revokes a number of transitional arrangements that were specified in the fifth commencement order of the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act. That order set out three transitional periods, all with reference to the commencement of registration and monitoring requirements. As the Protection of Freedoms Act repeals registration and monitoring, those arrangements are no longer required.
Thirdly, as a result of that revocation, the draft order creates two time-limited transitional arrangements, both of which will operate until the new direct check of the barred list in new Section 30A of the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act is introduced. The first allows for the continuation of the provisions that permit the Independent Safeguarding Authority to provide information that a person is barred to someone who can demonstrate that they have a legitimate interest in knowing that fact. Legitimate interest must be related to safeguarding.
Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, first, I apologise to my noble friend for missing the first half-minute of his presentation. He managed to polish off the previous group much more quickly than the Government Whips’ Office had predicted and caught several of us by surprise. I hope that he will forgive us.
My noble friend will recall that our main concern about the section of the Protection of Freedoms Act to which the orders relate was not the matter that we are discussing today. Given that the Act has come into law, we recognise that the regulations are needed and therefore support the Government.
However, I take this opportunity to raise a very closely related matter and ask my noble friend whether he would kindly agree to a meeting to talk about it further. In brief, my concern is about the draft statutory guidance to chief officers of police, which has been released to a limited number of relevant stakeholders. The Minister will remember that, following the removal of the controlled activity category, my colleagues and I supported the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, in his amendment to ensure that employers—for example, colleges of further education—could obtain the information they need to enable them to make safe appointment decisions about posts other than those involving regulated activity. The issue is that, following the passage of the Act, employers will not be informed whether applicants for posts that are not regulated are on either of the barred lists.
On 12 March my noble friend the Minister promised that the statutory guidance,
“will allow the ISA or the Disclosure and Barring Service to give to the police information which led to a bar and, if the police judge it relevant to the post applied for, the police may disclose it on an enhanced certificate”.—[Official Report, 12/3/12; col. 53.]
This assurance encouraged the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, to withdraw his amendment. It is now crucial that the final version of the statutory guidance appropriately fulfils this undertaking from the Dispatch Box, which I am sure my noble friend gave in good faith. Sadly, the draft that has been circulated is not considered by some of those stakeholders to be adequate guidance for police officers to understand the nature of the Minister’s undertaking and the consequences of their decision-making. The guidance must make clear through a specific reference that the ISA and the DBS can inform the police about the information that led to the bar, and that the police should request such information from them. This is particularly important where there was no criminal charge in the case.
Secondly, there needs to be clarity about circumstances where the post applied for does not fall under regulated activity but the employer is entitled to receive enhanced criminal records information, including the information to which I have just referred that led to a bar, if the person is indeed on a barred list. I am sure the Minister will agree that to carry out Ministers’ undertakings, statutory guidance needs to assist those for whom it is meant. I hope therefore that he will be so kind as to agree to a meeting to discuss the detail of this draft guidance.
Lord Bichard
My Lords, I will make a contribution, although I feel doubly constrained, partly because I was not here at the beginning of the debate for the same reason as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and partly because I should actually be in the Chair shortly, although I suspect that by the time I am there this will be completed. I merely rise to say that I hope the Minister will concede to a meeting, because I share the concerns that have been expressed. That is all I need to say today.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I put on record my comments from the previous debates, and I am grateful to the Minister for his offer of briefings from his department. Those would be very helpful, particularly on some of these more complex orders. I also find it difficult when going through an order if many of the references are to other legislation and you have to hunt through that legislation to find out exactly what they relate to. The Explanatory Notes are quite inadequate to address the issues that have been raised. However, his department has been quite helpful. I have spoken to officials at the Home Office and received some more information that has helped me with the comments that I wish to make today.
The issue covered by the first order was a contentious one during debate on what is now the Protection of Freedoms Act, and we were pleased by the government concessions that were made. I think that originally the Government had intended that there would be no automatic barring but that there would be an application and a process by which people could be barred. The Government changed that, and the process by which there is an automatic bar but a right to appeal is a better one.
During debate in your Lordships’ House, the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, made it clear that the Government had,
“listened carefully to the concerns raised in this House and by organisations such as the NSPCC”,
and had,
“concluded that where someone has been convicted of a crime on the list of the most serious offences—that is, an offence that leads to an automatic bar without the right to make representations—the Independent Safeguarding Authority should bar that person whether or not they … intend to work in regulated activity. An automatic bar without representation would apply to convictions for the most serious sexual and violent offences, such as, in the case of the children’s barred list, the rape of a child. In these cases, there are no conceivable mitigating circumstances—that is why representations are not permitted—and there can be no question that the person is a risk to vulnerable groups”.—[Official Report, 15/2/12; col. 804.]
That seems to be saying that the test for someone who has been automatically barred to have the right of appeal to that barring could be mitigating circumstances. I asked the Home Office for a list, as there has to be a strong justification for removing someone from automatic barring through a process by which they can be barred but may appeal against that barring.
My understanding of the current position is that if someone is automatically barred, they have a right of appeal and the bar can be removed. Under the Protection of Freedoms Act, it is the other way round. If someone is going to be automatically barred, they have a right to appeal first and must do so within a period of eight weeks. That appeal has then to be considered. If the information that I have been given by the Home Office is correct, there could be a considerable period before someone who was subject to an automatic barring with appeal could be given that barring order.
I am grateful to the Minister and his officials for providing me with a list of the offences that are changing. I am pleased to say that rape, sexual assault by penetration, the rape of a young child and sexual assault on a young child by penetration all remain offences that will be subject to an automatic bar. Where I struggle is with offences that, although they are said to be subject to an automatic bar, have a right of appeal. The noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, has said in the House on a previous occasion that there would have to be mitigating circumstances for an appeal against the bar to be allowed. Can the Minister explain what he or his officials think is a conceivable mitigating circumstance that would allow someone to appeal against the bar?
One of the offences is in Section 20 of the Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2009: sexual assault on a young child—that is, a child under the age of 13. I am told by officials at the Home Office that, although only sexual assault is referred to, it has to be sexual assault with penetration. I find it difficult to understand any conceivable circumstance where someone who has been convicted of a sexual assault against a young child with penetration could be allowed to appeal against a bar. I presume, because the offence has been included in the list before us today, that the Government think that there are mitigating circumstances.
The same goes for an offence such as causing a young child to participate in a sexual activity. What conceivable mitigation can there be for someone to appeal against a bar if they were convicted of that offence? The list also includes: causing a person to engage in sexual activity without consent; trafficking people for sexual exploitation; and even female genital mutilation—an individual convicted of that offence would be allowed to appeal against the bar. I struggle to understand why that should be so. Given, as I have said, that the Protection of Freedoms Act allows a person to appeal against a bar being imposed in the first place, there could be a period of several months where someone convicted of some of the most serious sexual offences against adults or young children under the age of 13 might not be subject to a bar.
I would be grateful if the Minister could answer those questions, because I remain dissatisfied. I may have the wrong information or have misunderstood something, so if the Minister is able to reassure me, it would be helpful. If he is not, I may want to pray against the order so that we might tease out further explanation from the Government. At the moment, on the basis of the information that I have been given, the order gives me enormous cause for concern.
Lord Henley
My Lords, perhaps I may begin by addressing the problems that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, has had with the way in which orders are dealt with generally. I appreciate that it is often difficult for the Opposition to cope with difficult orders such as this, which require a lot of cross-referencing from one to another. Even as a lawyer, I find all these things, particularly when one is amending one Act that has consequences on another, always very difficult. As an anecdote, I can tell the noble Baroness that the late Lord Underhill, whom she will remember fondly, had a wonderful technique whereby, if in doubt on some difficult order, he would read out the Explanatory Memorandum and say to the Minister, “Now explain that”. It worked quite well, causing great confusion for a number of Ministers who thought that they had grasped everything but had not looked at the simple Explanatory Memorandum, which was probably not as simple as it should have been. I note what the noble Baroness says about that. If noble Lords come to us in advance to let us know, we will, as always, be happy to offer briefing. I also take up the point that I made earlier about the Home Office website, which is probably going to be engraved on my heart for many years to come.
Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, I have the advantage of some other Members of the Committee in having taken part in the passage of the Act. I well remember that some Members on the same Benches as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, agreed that where the ages of the perpetrator and victim are very close and where the age of the perpetrator is very young, there may be mitigating circumstances.
Lord Henley
That was why I referred to Section 28 of the Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2009, which concerns having intercourse with an older child where the ages of the perpetrator and victim are very close and it is marginal.
I was trying to say that if you take the more extreme example, rightly given by the noble Baroness, of sexual assault on a younger child, it is very difficult to see where there might be mitigating circumstances but, in law, one must accept that there might be. I would rather the noble Baroness did not ask me to explain what they might be. It is possible that there could be mitigating circumstances, although it is very unlikely, other than in the sort of case to which the noble Baroness refers. In those circumstances, we ought to leave the law as it is, because it would be for the appropriate authority to decide whether there were or were not mitigating circumstances. The noble Baroness wishes to intervene.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am grateful to the Minister. He tried very hard to think of mitigating circumstances and has been unable to do so. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, refers to the age difference. I am very well aware of that. As the noble Lord said, Section 28 of the Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act refers to sexual intercourse with an older child. If someone is convicted, we are not talking about a borderline offence where the police do not know whether to prosecute. If someone is convicted of sexual assault on a young child with penetration, I cannot understand what mitigating circumstance there could be.
There are other offences here, such as causing a person to engage in sexual activity without consent or trafficking people for sexual exploitation, where I do not understand what the mitigating circumstances might be. Given that regulated activity is now more tightly drawn, we should be more careful to ensure that those who are convicted of such serious sexual and violent offences cannot work with vulnerable people. Female genital mutilation is another example where I find it hard to conceive that there could be mitigating circumstances in which that person could undertake a regulated activity. It is not just violent and sexual offences; there are others. I wonder whether the balance has moved too far. I understand that the Government did not want so much automatic barring but we seem to have moved a little too far in the wrong direction. I entirely accept the Minister’s comment that there are greyer areas where there may be some mitigation, but there are others where I struggle to understand what the mitigation might be.
On the other point I raised about the changes under the Protection of Freedoms Act—that people can appeal before they are barred—that creates an additional delay before the barring takes place. An individual convicted of such an offence has up to eight weeks to lodge an appeal against being barred. I understand from the Home Office that, once they make that appeal to the ISA—or the Disclosure and Barring Service, as it will become—that will take some time and the ISA may have to go back for additional information before it can make a decision. Therefore, we could be talking about several months before someone is barred. The current position, as the noble Lord rightly stated, is that the bar is immediate and then there can be an appeal against it, which seems to me a much fairer way to proceed. Given that the Government have changed from that to the new position, where there will be a delay, every caution should be taken to protect young and vulnerable people from those who are convicted of serious sexual offences. I am not convinced that the order gets the balance right. That is my concern.
I appreciate all the comments that the Minister has made, but he has not really done enough to satisfy me that the correct balance is reached. If there is anything else that he can say, I shall be happy to hear from him, but there are a number of offences here. He has the same list that the Home Office helpfully supplied to me, and I look at it and worry that there are people convicted of these offences who will not be subject to a bar because they have the right to appeal.
Lord Henley
I suspect that we are again getting into detail that might be more easily discussed in a meeting with the noble Baroness and possibly others. For example, she went into the various offences in the Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2009, and we talked about Section 20 concerning sexual assault on a young child. My understanding, certainly under the English rules, is that the sexual assault of a young child with penetration is auto-barred without representation—that is in draft regulation 3(3)—but sexual assault involving sexual touching is with representation and therefore is treated slightly differently.
At this stage there is a danger of getting into a state of confusion about this, which is why I am saying: “Can we go ahead with this Motion at the moment?”. In due course we will have to put it to the House because that is the proper process, but before we do that it might be worth the noble Baroness having a further conversation with me. I assure her that there is no need for her to pray against the Motion; these are affirmative regulations so there is nothing to pray against as the Motion has to go to the House. However, we could delay the next stage until we have a further discussion about this, which might be the proper way to go ahead. I want to give the appropriate assurances to the noble Baroness that her concerns are being dealt with. Would that meet her requirements? We move this at the moment so that the Committee has considered it; we put off the next stage for a week or so, otherwise we will be moving it next week; and we have a meeting and make sure that we get things straight in such a manner that the noble Baroness is happy with what we are doing and there are the appropriate safeguards that she wishes to see.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am grateful to the Minister for the offer. I think it would be helpful to meet before this goes before the House. I had already suggested to the Government Whips Office that they might not want to put it before the House tomorrow because that would be rather too soon, but the opportunity to discuss the areas of concern in detail is very welcome and I am grateful for that offer.
Lord Henley
My Lords, since we seem to have reached a degree of agreement on this, I will formally move the regulations at this stage and then move the order.
Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups (Miscellaneous Amendments) Order 2012
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Henley
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups (Miscellaneous Amendments) Order 2012.
Relevant document: 2nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments
House of Lords
Companies: Executive Remuneration
Lord Roberts of Conwy
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will give shareholders in listed companies a binding vote on senior executives’ and directors’ pay and bonuses.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, the Government have recently consulted on a new model of shareholder voting on directors’ remuneration. This proposes giving the shareholders of quoted companies binding votes on the policy for the remuneration of directors and on exit payments. We are considering the responses and will announce final proposals shortly. These reforms will require primary legislation, and we aim to introduce measures during the Committee stage of the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill in another place.
Lord Roberts of Conwy
My Lords, while I appreciate the Government’s proposals in the enterprise Bill, does my noble friend agree that, even after shareholders are enabled to pass a special resolution on a remuneration report to make it binding rather than advisory, they may still have great difficulties in exercising that power effectively? Should we not have an urgent review of the workings of the remuneration provisions of the Companies Act? Shareholders, especially in big companies, feel increasingly that their interests as owners, and the long-term interests of their companies, are not being given proper priority by top management, which appears to put its own interests first.
Lord De Mauley
Yes, my Lords, there is broad agreement among investors and businesses that the link between top pay and performance has grown weak and that the current pattern of growth in directors’ pay is unsustainable. Binding votes will encourage companies to set out a long-term pay policy that is clearly linked to the company’s strategy. Shareholders have been showing a keen appetite for a challenge on remuneration, and it is important that we give them the tools necessary to keep up this momentum.
Lord Lea of Crondall
My Lords, given that the policy referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, is viewed with scepticism for the reasons he indicated, is it not time that the leaders of industry and commerce were brought back to planet earth and workers’ representatives put on the boards of British companies and financial institutions, as is the case in successful economies such as Sweden, Germany and Holland?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, boards need to change and we are taking measures to promote greater diversity, but we do not believe in mandating that employees should be on boards. We encourage employees to get engaged by taking up their existing rights to information and consultation arrangements.
Lord Tugendhat
My Lords, encouraging as the Minister’s replies are, does he not agree that this matter is now urgent? No doubt he will be aware that last year, the total remuneration of FTSE chief executives increased by a further 10%, on top of the very substantial increases of recent years. That is quite out of line with the performance of share prices, with the economic performance of the country, and with what happens to everybody else. It really is a very urgent matter because capitalism is being brought into disrepute.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I am sympathetic to my noble friend’s view. We have to balance that against the fact that, while it is not the Government’s role to micromanage company pay, we have a role to play in addressing what is, as he says, a clear market failure. The culture has to change, too. We are pleased to see institutional investors taking a tougher stance on pay than they have in the past.
Lord Myners
My Lords, following on from the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, the report produced by Manifest shows that the average UK chief executive is now paid 240 times the average earnings in this country. This is an outrageous multiple and it simply is not satisfactory for the Government to say that they are considering allowing binding resolutions on an optional basis. The time has come for the Government to get a grip on this issue and to make sure that these excessive acts of greed are stopped.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I am not sure what binding votes on an optional basis might mean, but that is not what is proposed.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, is not one of the difficulties with the Government’s proposals that the people who act for the shareholders are the fund managers and the institutions—as the noble Lord, Lord Myners, is well aware—who are themselves paid huge sums of money, which, unlike with directors of public companies, are not disclosed?
Lord De Mauley
Presumably unless they are quoted, my Lords. Institutional shareholders are showing a great deal more interest in taking action on this than they have previously, and we have every hope that they will take advantage of the tools that we propose to give them.
Lord Borrie
My Lords, what is the Government’s attitude to establishing by law a multiple of the lowest paid in a company or institution beyond which the salary of no other person in the company or institution should go?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, we will require companies to give more information about pay. We are not in favour of mandating companies to adopt a standardised set of ratios because they are not always the best measure to compare across companies. Different types of companies have different ratios because of the nature of their businesses. We also know from the United States that it is not helpful to work out the appropriate pay ratio for a UK-listed company whose business is conducted largely overseas. But I hear what the noble Lord says.
Lord Smith of Clifton
My Lords, if the chief executives of corporations do not get it, will the Government consider imposing martial law on the City?
Lord Davies of Coity
My Lords, in answer to the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Lea, the Minister said there were no plans to have employee representatives on management boards. Fine—but can the Minister tell the House why the Government object to workers’ representatives being on the boards?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I am as yet unconvinced that it would contribute to the growth of those companies or of UK plc.
Lord Jones of Birmingham
My Lords, can the Minister explain exactly what a worker is? What is important is that directors on boards are seen to—and do—fulfil a duty to all the stakeholders in a business, including creditors, suppliers, employees and, above all, customers. I would welcome the Minister’s illumination on what constitutes a worker.
Lord De Mauley
I think that the word came from the Opposition rather than myself. We are all workers and I am delighted to have the opportunity to confirm that.
Schools: Nutrition
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will enforce nutritional standards for school food in academies and free schools in the light of new evidence that some schools are reintroducing junk food.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, we know that nutritious food has positive effects on behaviour and attainment. The evidence indicates that many academies have responded positively to the standards, and some are going beyond them. The quality of food offered in all schools, including academies, has improved, but further improvement is needed. The latest findings from the School Food Trust show no significant difference between the lunch provided by maintained schools and by academies.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
I thank the Minister for that reply. However, at a time of rising childhood obesity, with more than one-third of 11-year-olds now being classified as overweight or obese, with all the associated health problems, is he not shocked by the School Food Trust’s research, which shows that while healthy eating is increasing in maintained schools, nine out of 10 academies are ignoring the nutritional standards introduced by the previous Government and selling crisps, chocolate and cereal bars? Does this not undermine the Government’s faith that academies can be trusted to do the right thing on nutrition? How much worse must the situation get before the Government act? Is not the simplest answer to enforce the nutritional standards in all schools regardless of their status?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, having looked at all the research and the most recent qualitative survey carried out by the School Food Trust into what is going on in academies, I find it difficult to draw the very clear conclusion that the noble Baroness has come to. The survey concluded that there are maintained schools that are not doing as well as they ought to, there are academies exceeding the standards and there are also academies not doing as well as any of us would like them to do. I agree with her entirely about the importance of decent food in terms of obesity and of concentration in school. The question in my mind is whether the regulatory approach is the necessary way forward. I agree with her that the Government need to reflect on whether there is more that they can do to raise the quality of school food. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has indicated that that is what he will do.
Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, how would the Minister analyse junk food? Surely he would agree that one man’s junk may be another person’s Ritz-Carlton.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, when I walk to the department in the morning I pass a number of schools and, sadly, I see children drinking Red Bull and eating crisps for breakfast. I would call that junk food because it is not very healthy or good. There are things we need to do to improve the quality of food. There are many schools doing that, including academies, and that is something that we should encourage.
Lord Morris of Handsworth
My Lords, the consumption of so-called junk food is a clear indication of poverty. What steps are the Government taking to implement the target inherited from the previous Government for ending child poverty?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I am not sure that I agree with the noble Lord’s premise that eating junk food is necessarily an indicator of poverty. It is an indicator of people not being properly educated in the importance of good food and that is something that we need to look at. It can also be an indicator of a number of other things. I know from visiting academies which are dealing with some of the poorest children that they are inculcating extremely good habits of eating with pupils all sitting down together, learning and, I hope, building habits for a lifetime. The broader issue of child poverty is clearly important and the Government are working to make further progress on that.
The Lord Bishop of Bath and Wells
My Lords, yesterday I visited one of our schools, which is hoping to become an academy. It has reinstated its kitchen, providing excellent food not only for the school but for those in the locality. I was also involved in a discussion yesterday about the increasing number of young people whose family food is being taken from food banks around our country today. Does the Minister agree that the priority is to ensure that all school food provides adequate nutritional standards in the light of the fact that too many of our most vulnerable people are experiencing a need to get food from food banks in the 21st century?
Lord Hill of Oareford
There were two strands to the right reverend Prelate’s remarks. One was to make the point that in a school which he knows which is hoping to become an academy good work is being done to make sure that the quality of food is good, and I welcome that. On his broader point, standards clearly can play a part in helping to address the concerns that he raises. One of the things that we have discovered is that although standards are in place and the nutritional quality of food has improved, the take-up of that food by children has not increased at the same rate. So better food is available but the children are not always exercising their choice to eat it. One of the challenges for us is to make sure that children understand that eating healthy food is good for them.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, we have not heard from a Liberal Democrat on this Question. We will hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, and then from the Cross Benches.
Baroness Parminter
My Lords, with almost 18% of children between two and 15 growing clinically obese in the past decade, can the Minister tell the House what discussions have taken place or are planned to take place with colleagues in the Department of Health to discuss this new evidence from the Government’s own advisers on school food and children’s meals about the potential risks to the life expectancy of children and the increasing costs to the NHS, particularly in the light of the Secretary of State’s own view that the majority of secondary schools will become academies by the end of this Parliament?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I agree about the importance of my department working closely with the Department of Health. We do so. The Department of Health has recently published a new policy tackling that important issue, and we will continue to work closely with it.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, I declare an interest as the vice-chairman of the Institute for Food, Brain and Behaviour which is currently conducting work in a school in Dagenham replicating work that in young offender institutions reduced the offending rate by 40%. Will the Minister agree to invite the scientists from the Oxford Department of Physiology, Anatomy and Genetics who are conducting this work to talk to his officials about what lessons are learnt from this very important trial which has implications for behaviour as well as for nutrition?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I am very grateful for the suggestion. Yes, of course.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I know everybody is desperate to get in on this Question, but we are now into the 17th minute and I think we have to go to the next Question. Unfortunately this Question has taken too much time.
Businesses: Tax Liability
(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Kennedy of Southwark
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the normal notice period that HM Revenue and Customs gives to businesses in relation to changes in their tax liability.
The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)
My Lords, changes in tax law are normally confirmed at least three months before the tax year in which they come into effect or the publication of the Finance Bill in which they are to be included. The Government normally announce such changes at Budget for enactment through the following year’s Finance Bill. The Government also consult on most changes to tax law, unless they are straightforward changes, revenue protection measures or areas where there is a risk of forestalling.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
On 18 May, HMRC issued new guidance concerning the tax rates to be charged to the waste industry with immediate effect. It resulted in a 2,500% tax increase and put jobs and businesses at risk. I raised it in the House on 29 May. The Government then did a U-turn—the official line was that they clarified their position. The problem is that half the industry does not accept the veracity of the clarification of the Government’s guidance. Does the Minister accept that we have a serious problem and will he agree to facilitate a meeting between me, my good friend the Member of Parliament for Mitcham and Morden and the relevant Treasury Minister with a representative of the industry to sort out this shambles of all shambles?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, before I get what I might call my noble friend Lady Trumpington’s question, “What on earth are we talking about?”, it might be helpful to give a little background. Landfill tax is payable by landfill site operators per tonne of waste put into their sites. It is sometimes called by the press “the skip tax”.
Recently HMRC responded to concerns expressed by some landfill operators that certain companies were not paying the correct rate of tax and in that process were disadvantaging those companies that were paying the correct rate of tax. There is no new tax policy here. The rates of landfill tax have not changed, but HMRC issued guidance in response to that request. Since the issuance of that guidance, there has been some misinterpretation which HMRC has sought to correct. I appreciate that there may still be some residual concerns, and I am very happy to facilitate a meeting. Because it is an operational matter, I suggest that the person who it would be most helpful to meet is the director at HMRC who is directly responsible, and I will help to set that up.
Lord Lawson of Blaby
This Question concerns Customs and Excise. Is the Minister aware that a report published by the Institute of Fiscal Studies last year pointed out that, while some unhealthy foods are subject to the standard rate for VAT, there are many other unhealthy foods which are zero-rated? Would he care to suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that no unhealthy foods should be zero-rated? I am sure that the Chancellor could do with the additional revenue.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I think that we probably call it Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs these days. That aside, I will of course pass on my noble friend’s representations on this important matter.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, will the Minister tell the House whether the decision by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to put Rangers Football Club into liquidation was made by officials or was referred to Ministers?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, as previously in answer to any football club tax questions, I can say only that I cannot talk about individual taxpayer matters for reasons of confidentiality, which the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, well knows.
Crime: Victims
(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Laming
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of responses to their consultation, Getting it right for victims and witnesses, what assessment they have made of the contribution of the central office of Victim Support to supporting victims of crime.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, we are still consulting on this matter and hope to report the outcome of the consultation as soon as possible.
Lord Laming
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. However, although many of us support the general thrust of the consultation document, especially the point that local services should be shaped to meet the needs of the communities they serve, does the Minister agree that these local services would be more efficient and more effective if they were supported by a strong organisation at the centre that could provide them with advice, help and support? In particular, will Victim Support continue to maintain its services for witnesses and the relatives of victims of homicide?
Lord McNally
Part of the purpose of the consultation is to work out where it is best to keep responsibilities centrally—the noble Lord referred to one such responsibility in the case of homicide—and where they could be devolved locally. I assure him that the Government fully appreciate that Victim Support provides a valuable service. We would be surprised if it did not continue to have an important role, as we have proposed moving to a mixed model of national and local commissioning.
Lord Dholakia
My Lords, I recently chaired a commission from the Magistrates’ Association on the future of summary justice. One of the outcomes of this consultation was the view that victims of crime felt that the system of justice was opaque and seldom provided them with information about the process and the outcome. In light of the consultation process which the Minister has undertaken will he undertake to establish a pilot scheme to see how the local commissioning of victim support schemes might operate and whether it would not be a better option than the current system?
Lord McNally
I am not sure that I can assure my noble friend that we will move to pilot schemes. The plan, after the consultation, is to see which parts of Victim Support should go to local commissioning and which parts should be retained centrally. My noble friend makes the point that many victims complain that they are not kept well enough informed. The Ministry of Justice information site is trying to give a much better ability to follow through on crimes. However, we feel that the current code is very process-oriented and out of date. In the victims and witnesses consultation we are proposing to review and rewrite the code to clarify what victims should expect. I will certainly take on board what my noble friend says about the opinions of the Magistrates’ Association, which I value very highly.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
My Lords, does the Minister agree that this point is particularly true of children and young people who appear in court as witnesses when they are the victim of crime? Will he look into whether progress is being made on the work done previously? Although that work moved the position forward a long way it seems to have stalled, and children are still being revictimised in court.
Lord McNally
I will most certainly follow it up. It is very important that children who are caught up in court processes, whether as the accused or as the witness of a crime, are dealt with in a non-damaging way. I am certain that the thrust of policy development seeks to do just that.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
Can the Minister assure me that, whatever follows at the end of the consultation, the needs of victims of stalking will be properly taken into account? I met three victims of stalking earlier this week and it was absolutely clear that their needs as victims were never taken into account. I hope that this situation can be improved.
Lord McNally
Again, I certainly take that on board. We are beginning to appreciate more fully just how traumatic it is for an individual to be stalked. I am hopeful that we will be able to treat this as the serious crime that it is, not only in dealing with the perpetrators but in how we support the victims.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
May I invite the Minister to consider a very significant omission in the otherwise excellent consultation document? Is he aware that under Section 130 of the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 a court is obliged in appropriate cases to grant compensation to the victim of the crime, and that if it does not take that view, it is obliged to certify why that is not being done? Is he satisfied that the fullest use is made of this most significant statutory provision?
Lord McNally
As often with questions from the noble Lord, I am not sure that I am aware of the provision to which he referred. If I understood him correctly, he is saying that courts should sometimes use their discretion not to grant compensation. I think that there have been press reports of compensation paid to people who have been involved in criminal activity—
Lord Elystan-Morgan
I am sorry; perhaps I may explain. I was referring to a situation in which a court feels that a fine is appropriate, all other things being equal, but that the defendant can hardly afford to pay a fine and compensation. The court might decide that, in the circumstances, the public interest is better served by using a compensation order.
Lord McNally
I think that I had better take advice and write to the noble Lord. I can feel the thin ice under me so I will write to him.
The Lord Bishop of Liverpool
My Lords, I know that the Minister recognises that victims often feel overlooked in the criminal justice system. Can he please tell the House whether victims themselves have begun to ask for the decentralisation of this service?
Lord McNally
Yes. A large number of organisations are involved in victim support, and Victim Support—as the title says—is one of the leading ones. At the moment it is in effect a monopoly provider of services, receiving some £38 million of public funds. In this consultation exercise we are looking at whether it would be better to commission some of those victim support activities locally, and then we can decide where the dividing line between local and central delivery should be. It is a perfectly legitimate exercise. We have, as I say, completed the consultation, and our response and specific proposals are imminent. I hope that that will inform further debate in this House and elsewhere.
Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, do not some of the awards available under the criminal injuries compensation scheme tend to inflate the incidence of false allegations? Would it not be wiser to invest less money in compensation and more in victim support?
Lord McNally
That is exactly what we are doing. We intend to put more into victim support and to focus compensation much more effectively.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, in this new construct that the noble Lord is putting forward, how can we be assured of the quality of the support that is given to victims if it is disaggregated in the way that the Government are contemplating?
Lord McNally
Quality will come partly from local accountability and the fact that support will be devolved to the new police commissioners, who will have responsibility for victims. That is a very healthy development. I do not want the new police and crime commissioners to see their role as second-guessing chief constables. They should have a wider role in their responsibility for police and crime. If victims are high on their list of priorities, the democratic process will ensure service and accountability.
European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [HL]
(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
“(3) That decision is subject to the referendum condition, within the meaning of section 3 of the European Union Act 2011, being satisfied.”
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, as Members of this House will know, the Queen’s Speech was made here on 9 May and the Second Reading of the Bill came rather quickly after it on 23 May. Therefore, a number of Members who have taken a notable interest in the European Union over several years were unable to change engagements that had already been made to be here and participate at Second Reading. I was certainly one of them. However, I read the proceedings on the Bill and there was one speech with which I concur absolutely—that of my noble friend Lord Radice. Everything that he said was what I would have said, although he put it rather more eloquently, lucidly and intellectually than I could have.
Several issues that need to be explored arose from consideration of the Bill at Second Reading. Therefore, I tabled two or three amendments, thinking that they would appear on a long Marshalled List. Imagine my surprise when I found that they were the only amendments to the Bill that had been tabled. I wondered what had happened to the usual suspects, notably the UKIP Members, who are never usually at a loss to table reams of amendments and suggestions, and to participate at great length. This could not be more in the mainstream of some of their thinking. However, not only have they not tabled amendments; they are not even here to participate in the debate. I must say that I find that rather strange.
This first amendment proposes that there should be a referendum on the treaty in the United Kingdom. Let me make it absolutely clear that this is a probing amendment—I do not actually agree with it. I put it in to enable a debate to take place, and to contrast the areas in which there will or will not be a referendum because of the provisions of the European Union Act 2011 on this issue. Under Section 4 of that Act there are 13 instances—and we discussed this during the proceedings on that Bill—where referenda would be necessary. The whole of the electorate would be asked to go out to the ballot boxes to cast a ballot on—let us take Section 4(1)(m)—
“any amendment of any of the provisions specified in subsection (3) that removes or amends the provision enabling a member of the Council, in relation to a draft legislative act, to ensure the suspension of the ordinary legislative procedure”.
If that was to happen, we would have a referendum on it. Can you imagine people flocking to the polling stations to take part in that? Yet we have something in this Bill which is a major and very substantive change—as was said in important speeches by former Chancellors at Second Reading—and there is no provision for a referendum. I am not saying that there should be; I am against referenda on all these things. I want to contrast the fact that we would have referenda on all these minor matters but not on this. It seems strange.
I then looked specifically at the basis on which the Government are arguing that there should not be a referendum. The Minister said at Second Reading that the Foreign Secretary had indicated that,
“in his opinion a referendum is not required to give parliamentary approval. … it does not transfer further competence or power to the European Union from the United Kingdom. The statement was open to judicial review, but in the intervening eight months no one has sought to challenge it in the courts”.—[Official Report, 23/5/12; col. 802.]
I went back to the Act again to find out why he had given this opinion. Section 2(3) says:
“The exemption condition is that the Act providing for the approval of the treaty states that the treaty does not fall within section 4”.
We therefore look at Section 4, “Cases where treaty or Article 48(6) decision attracts a referendum”, which includes the 13 that I mentioned earlier. Then, that section says:
“A treaty … does not fall within this section merely because it involves one or more of the following”,
and the second of the following three is,
“the making of any provision that applies only to member States other than the United Kingdom”.
That would seem to me to be open to argument. The inclusion of “merely” implies that there should be something else—that there should be another factor involved in the decision on whether or not there should be a referendum.
I am, therefore, at a loss to understand why this is the case. I hope that the Minister will try further to explain this to the House, as he did briefly at Second Reading, and to convince us that although a referendum would be necessary in all these 13 tiny little areas it would not be necessary in this particular one. I beg to move.
Lord McAvoy
My Lords, I wish to speak briefly on this issue. My noble friend Lord Foulkes—he may not be my noble friend when I have finished speaking, but there we are—said that he agreed with every word that our noble friend Lord Radice said on Second Reading. I wish to put on record that I did not agree with a single word that my noble friend Lord Radice said in that debate, as he well knows, as the notion that the European Union is some sort of holy grail does not accord with me at all. The speech that most appealed to me in that Second Reading debate was that of the noble Lord, Lord Lamont of Lerwick. Although I do not endorse every single word that he said, nevertheless he very much captured the latent suspicion—however, that may be too strong a word—of the British people towards the European Union.
Naturally, as a loyal party man, I will not support the call for a referendum, which is the basis of this amendment, as that is not Labour Party policy. However, your Lordships’ House would do well to take note of the deep feelings of many people in the United Kingdom against further encroachment into their lives by the European Union. I know that the relevant “holy grail” stipulates that we should all be so-called good Europeans and sign up to everything that comes from Brussels, or wherever else in Europe that the European Union happens to be meeting. However, I take the opposite point of view. I am no history graduate in this regard but, as far as I recall, the 1975 referendum—I was involved in that referendum campaign—sold the European Union to the British people as an economic union and an economic set of circumstances which would help us to retain, or in some cases regain, our place in the industrialised world. However, the giant bureaucracy in Brussels and Strasbourg has encroached on our lives bit by bit. In my opinion that is the main reason why many people in the United Kingdom feel strongly that there should be a referendum.
As I say, unlike my noble friend Lord Foulkes, I do not support the call for a referendum but I would like to take a few more minutes to explain why many people feel that there should be one on anything to do with the European Union. I know that noble Lords dotted all over your Lordships’ House take the exact opposite view and will make faces at me as they walk out of the Chamber because I am saying these things.
Lord Davies of Stamford
My noble friend talked about the giant bureaucracy in Brussels. Is he aware that the European Commission employs fewer people than Strathclyde council, which I think is where he comes from?
Lord McAvoy
Strathclyde council has a better record of administration than the European Union. I assure my noble friend that it is one of the best administrative councils in the history of Europe as well as being one of the biggest. I declare an interest as a former member of that council although I was not involved in its financial affairs.
In short, there is a certain amount of arrogance—I do not mean this in a hostile way—on the part of pro-European Union people as regards further encroachment on the British way of life and the concept that the intellectual giants are the people who have thought out everything to do with the European Union and its encroachments. That is not the case and those people do not represent the views of the British people. The view of the British people is best represented by those who say, “This far and no further”. Although I do not support the call for a referendum, it is useful for this House to hear a dissident voice on this side of the Chamber. We certainly should be very careful as regards further encroachment.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, I must confess that when I saw these amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, I thought that we had a convert. However, my hopes were dashed by his speech this afternoon. It appears that he tabled these amendments as it enabled him to make the speech—it is a very nice way of doing it—that he could not make when we debated this matter on Second Reading. He has a point. The implications of this Bill are much further ranging than has been related to the House. I shall quote from the Times on 11 May this year, which will support the case—or non-case—that the noble Lord made:
“There are two issues with this EU treaty change that could cause big problems: first, it allows the eurozone to integrate further with consequences for UK interests; second, the quid pro quo guarantee that the UK won’t be forced to contribute to euro bailouts in future may not be legally binding”.
So there is some support in that article for the view that perhaps this Bill is much more important and far-ranging than some of us had believed. I and other people considered whether this Bill could be amended and I came to the conclusion that it was best left to the House of Commons. However, we have an amendment here which I believe should be supported. The Bill is very important indeed, particularly in the light of what is happening at present. The problems of the eurozone and the European Union itself are leading to demands for further integration. Even today, the President of the European Commission, Mr Barroso, is outlining plans to the European Parliament for a European banking union, which would affect not only the eurozone but the whole of the European Union.
Angela Merkel, for example, believes that the answer to the problem is not less but more Europe, politically, financially and economically. This Bill facilitates what these people are thinking. The Bill is much more important than we previously believed and the House should be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. I should really describe him as my noble friend, because we have been around a long time and embarked on many debates. Usually, we have been on the same side. Paradoxically, according to the wording of the amendment we are still on the same side, but perhaps if he puts it to a vote we shall be in opposite Lobbies. We shall see. In the mean time, if he puts it to the vote, I shall support him.
Lord Liddle
My Lords, I had better explain briefly the opposition Front Bench position on this amendment and some of the speeches we have heard. It was a great pity that my noble friend Lord Foulkes could not make Second Reading, because he would have made a strong pro-European speech in that debate. He was right that my noble friend Lord Radice made an excellent speech as well. However, from our perspective I do not think that we can support the thrust of his amendment. I see the logic of his position. In the European Union Act, which we debated over many hours last year, we got ourselves in a situation where, if it was decided to establish a European office of paperclips, we would have to have a referendum on it, because it would involve a transfer of sovereignty to Brussels.
For our part, we believe that referenda should take place only on issues of major constitutional significance, as the Lords Constitution Committee recommended, and that we should be consistent with that principle. As far as the Labour position in the Commons is concerned—and I say this with some trepidation because my dear noble friend Lord McAvoy has a great record as a party loyalist and defender of party discipline in the other place—the shadow Foreign Secretary, Douglas Alexander, in the Commons debate last autumn on the question of a referendum, said:
“I urge opposition to the motion because I do not believe that Britain’s national interest would be served by spending the coming months and years debating the case for Britain leaving the world’s largest single market”.—[Official Report, Commons, 24/10/11; col. 60.]
The leader of the Labour Party made it clear only last week or the week before that Labour’s position had not changed from that view in the mean time.
That is where we stand. The EU Act is a contradictory piece of legislation. The measure is not defined under the terms of that Act as a transfer of powers to Brussels, and we therefore do not have a referendum—but there is no point in reiterating our debates on that Act. Our view is that this is an emergency situation in Europe; the stability mechanism is a necessary part of tackling the problems of the eurozone, which is very much in the British national interest. Therefore, this legislation should go through in the speediest possible time.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, we all admire the lone role that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has cast for himself in bringing forward these amendments, and his boldness in bringing forward an amendment with which he does not, in fact, agree. This is bravery on a high scale in this debating Chamber.
The amendment, as he pointed out, seeks to insert into the Bill a requirement for a favourable vote in a national referendum before the UK could approve the European Council decision amending Article 136 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. The European Council decision amends Article 136 of the TFEU. It was adopted in accordance with the simplified revision procedure in Article 48(6) of the Treaty on European Union. The decision added a paragraph to Article 136 which confirms that EU members whose currency is the euro may establish a financial stability mechanism. The provisions of Article 136 and the proposed new paragraph apply only—I repeat, only—to member states whose currency is the euro. They do not, therefore, apply to the United Kingdom.
The Bill is required under Section 3 of the 2011 Act, to which the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, referred, to give parliamentary approval to the decision. The other two requirements of that Act were, as noble Lords will recall, a statement by the Minister giving his opinion as to whether a referendum is required—I will come to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, on that in a moment—and compliance with the so-called referendum condition, exemption condition or significance condition which we debated when we considered that Bill some time ago.
The 2011 Act makes it clear that decisions adopted under Article 48(6) of the TEU are not subject to a referendum under that Act if its provisions do not apply to the United Kingdom. The 2011 Act, to which the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, rightly drew attention, provides:
“A treaty or Article 48(6) decision does not fall within this section merely”—
I come to that word—
“because it involves ... the making of any provision that applies only to member States other than the United Kingdom”.
The “merely” is intended to indicate that other conditions are also taken into account—for example, the exemption condition or the significance condition. It is not only the fact that it does not apply to the United Kingdom and is outside the application of the United Kingdom; it involves other conditions as well. The decision amending Article 136 therefore clearly falls within the exemption set out in Section 4(4)(b) of the 2011 Act.
The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, raised again the doubts of his own party and colleagues about that Act, which was vigorously debated. I do not think that it would be in order to debate the Act again, although I am always happy to reopen these great issues. I happen to think that it was an immensely important Act which has been a considerable reinforcement to the concerns of the British people that there will be no further transfer of competence to the European Union without a referendum. It is an important safeguard, and my right honourable and noble friends have drawn attention to its importance.
The Government have been clear that a referendum is not required under the 2011 Act right from the very beginning. On 13 October 2011, the Foreign Secretary laid a Statement before Parliament in accordance with Section 5 of the Act, in which he confirmed that in his opinion a referendum was not required under the Act. The Statement was open to judicial review but, as my right honourable friend pointed out, in the intervening eight months, no one has sought to challenge it in the courts. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, whose position is consistent and which he has put with admirable consistency over the years, said that in his view there was some practical implication of transfer of competence— although he did not put it in quite those words. But no judicial review to make that point has been launched. The noble Lord referred to the aspect, to which I will refer again in a moment, that in exchange for this going forward, the British liability to be exposed under the European financial stability mechanism is released, and the mechanism falls and is no longer in use. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, was concerned that that was just a political decision and not enshrined in law. He is perfectly correct, but it is a decision by all 27 members, and it is a firm commitment. To unravel the whole of that would be to throw the entire arrangement of the EFSM into complete chaos. It would be a total reversal of a firm commitment made in good faith by 27 members. We believe that it is a substantial and supported condition.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon
I am most obliged to the Minister. Can he deal with the point that I made concerning the article in the Times? I have given it to Hansard so I cannot quote from it again. The Times queried whether the European Court of Justice could interpret our passing of this Bill as an agreement to future financing within the European stability mechanism. The point being made by the Times was that perhaps the European Court could interpret what we are doing as being consistent with having to make future contributions.
Lord Howell of Guildford
The European Court proceeds in ways which some of us do not always understand, but it is required to interpret the law. There is no issue with the European financial stability mechanism in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, said. When this Bill is passed—I can boldly say when—and the amendment of Article 136 is ratified by all 27 member states, that will be the law, and the Court will interpret it. I do not see how the noble Lord could argue that this political decision, which is immensely valuable to the United Kingdom, could be somehow embroiled in the legal interpretations of the Court. I do not see how it comes into the interpretations of the law as embodied in the treaties.
When we debated the provisions of the EU Bill, as it then was, in this House last year, many Members were concerned that we might be bringing referenda into disrepute by requiring them for small changes to EU treaties and by being explicit about when a referendum was and was not required. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, made a proposition that something to do with paper clips, I think it was, could cause a referendum.
I spent a lot of time at this Dispatch Box explaining why we felt the provisions for referenda were not trivial. I explained that one of the reasons the European Union Bill was so long was so that it could be crystal clear about when a referendum was not required, and why issues which appeared small in the schedules to some of your Lordships were in fact the core of red-line considerations involving transfers of competence which we believed were not desirable and would certainly require a referendum.
The way in which the European Union Act 2011 applies to the treaty change we are considering today is clear. The provisions of this decision, amending Article 136 of the TFEU, do not apply to the United Kingdom, so the decision simply does not attract a referendum. What is more, there is no transfer of competence or power from the UK to the EU involved. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart may feel that that is questionable; if that was his determined view and he thought he could mobilise the evidence for it, there would have been an opportunity for a judicial review, but no such review was brought forward.
The amendment to Article 136 simply recognises the ability of eurozone member states to establish a permanent stability mechanism—the European stability mechanism—by means of an intergovernmental agreement. The ESM is established by an agreement. This is not the ESM treaty. This is a treaty merely noting the amendment to the existing treaties, to Article 136.
I have listened very carefully, and I enjoyed the speech of the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for which I am grateful. I hear the views of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle—who is a considerable expert on these things—that his party does not stand against this Bill, but believes it will make a contribution. We can have a debate on what sort of contribution it makes to a rapidly changing scene where there are many issues that cannot be resolved at this stage, but holding a referendum on this decision would contradict the clear provisions of the European Union Act 2011. It would introduce confusion about the circumstances in which a referendum would be required in the UK, and that is, to my mind, the reason, above all, why it should be—and, I hope, will be—resisted by your Lordships’ House.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, while I agree with the Minister that I enjoyed the speech of my noble friend, Lord McAvoy, I can honestly say that it did not contain any words with which I agreed. I was very pleased that my noble friend from the Front Bench gave what might almost be described as a muffled, mild rebuke to my noble friend Lord McAvoy about the importance of loyalty. I think that my noble friend is only too aware of that, because he has managed to follow the party line on many occasions when he did not agree with it, and has been an inspiration to all of us.
I am sorry to disappoint my noble friend—because he is my friend—Lord Stoddart. We are not on the same Benches now, but we were for many years and we agreed on almost everything except Europe. I agreed with everything that my noble friend on the Front Bench said, including his remarks quoting our shadow Foreign Secretary and our party leader on the question of a wider referendum. It would be unnecessary and wasteful. It is not covered in the amendment and not something that I dealt with, but I will say that I agreed with my noble friend completely.
If I had not already intended not to press my amendment, the speeches of the Minister and my noble friend Lord Liddle would have convinced me. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, I will not detain the House on this for more than a couple of minutes. As I found out, trying to devise amendments for the Bill is not easy. It is very tightly drawn and cleverly done by the usual draftspersons. At Second Reading, the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, said in relation to the ESM:
“The intention is that it will replace both the EFSM and EFSF”.—[Official Report, 23/5/12; col. 802.]
I wanted to devise an amendment that would make that clear. It would have said that by agreeing to the ESM we would have replaced the EFSM and the EFSF. However, I was told that that was not competent within the terms of reference of the Bill. I wonder whether the Minister—this is the only point I shall raise on the clause stand part debate—will give an assurance that it is the understanding of Her Majesty’s Government that those two mechanisms will be replaced. There is a tendency in my beloved European Union to keep things going when they are not necessary—actually, there is such a tendency in successive Governments. I hope that we will have a clear assurance on that.
Lord Howell of Guildford
My Lords, briefly, I will give a clear assurance that it is our intention to replace the EFSM and the European Financial Stability Facility. That has been the aim all along. The Bill does not do either of those things but merely amends Article 136. However, those intentions were stated absolutely clearly and supported by all members of the European Community. That is what is proposed.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, it was a wise and appropriate suggestion by the Government to group Amendments 2, 3 and 4 together. Amendment 2 would insert,
“Subject to subsection (2A)”.
New subsection (2A) is proposed in Amendment 4. Amendment 3 changes the date to 1 January 2013—again, in order to enable a debate to take place on that.
The amendment is based on the assumption that the Act can come into effect only if the member states of the eurozone are those that existed when the treaty was agreed. Obviously, as we heard at Second Reading, this raises the question of Greece. If Greece was to have withdrawn or in some other way removed itself, or have been removed, from the eurozone, the treaty would not take effect—or, at least, the Bill would not take effect—and our agreement to the treaty would not take effect.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I see some puzzled faces around the Chamber and I think that others agree with me that this is rather wide of the amendment under discussion. Perhaps I may remind the noble Lord that we are at the Committee stage when we should address directly the amendments concerned.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I have noticed that the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, has been up on his feet regularly in recent days and weeks keeping colleagues in order, so I know that he is not picking on me in any way. I accept that I had moved just a little wide of the amendment.
I was trying to say that if Greece were no longer a member of the eurozone, having been forced out because of all these speculators, the question would arise whether the treaty should go ahead as originally planned. That is the amendment and that is a valid point. People are concerned that countries such as Greece, Ireland and now Spain, which are in difficulties and suffering, might have to leave the eurozone because of the speculation taking place. If those countries were no longer members of the eurozone, why should a treaty which was drawn up at a time when they were members continue on that basis? I beg to move.
Lord Brabazon of Tara
I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, would reconsider his suggestion that Greece might be forced to leave the eurozone purely because of the action of the speculators. Is the real reason why Greece is in trouble not because it has been spending money it does not have, it has been borrowing money that it cannot pay back, and it is basically bust?
Lord Howell of Guildford
My Lords, I was interested to hear the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, recount how he was accidentally drawn into the adventure of currency speculation. I hope that that is all in order, and I am sure that it is. However, having heard my noble friend Lord Sassoon say earlier, rightly and correctly, that he was not prepared to be drawn by the noble Lord into a discussion of Rangers’ tax affairs, I have equally to recognise that I am not prepared to be drawn into a discussion about the noble Lord’s own tax affairs either.
The purpose of these amendments is, first and obviously, to delay the entry into force of this Act until January of next year. Secondly, they would stop the Act coming into force at all if the membership of the euro area were to change between now and 1 January 2013. This Bill gives parliamentary approval to a European Council decision amending Article 136, as I am afraid I repeated ad nauseam in my earlier comments. This, in Her Majesty’s Government’s view, is firmly in the UK’s best interests. Once the European stability mechanism is established, the UK will not be exposed to any future programmes of financial assistance for the eurozone through the EU budget, specifically through the European financial stability mechanism. The mechanism will contribute to helping our neighbours in the eurozone in the continuing search for financial stability in the currency area. Delaying the coming into force of this Bill until 1 January is therefore not in our interests. It would create uncertainty about the UK’s intentions in relation to ratification of the decision.
In turn, as a knock-on effect, a delay would destabilise the European stability mechanism, which may or may not come into use in the times ahead depending on what occurs. It is not for me to speculate on any of the points that have been raised about whether there will be exits from the eurozone or whether there will be banking unions, insurance unions, fiscal pacts and so on. This move on the part of the House and this Parliament is intended to be a contribution to a very complex jigsaw of requirements. If the Bill were not to come into force at all, that would be even more damaging to what is without doubt a very difficult and challenging situation with many complex and component parts to it, which is what the eurozone states are presently confronting. I am sure that noble Lords will appreciate that it would not be appropriate for me to speculate further on that aspect of what is going to happen. However, what is certain is that, regardless of whether there is a change in member states whose currency is the euro, having a permanent stability mechanism, which is the decision of the eurozone states, is essential for those that remain.
If the Bill were not to be enacted and come into force, the UK would not be able to ratify the treaty change —the Article 136 amendment—and that amendment would not be able to enter into force. This instrument is the change that will provide eurozone members with the legal certainty they want in relation to the ESM, and it is very much in our interests that that at least should be in place.
We want the euro to sort out its problems, of course, as a strong and stable euro area is in the UK’s national interests because of our close economic links. I think that everyone realises that now. Setting up a permanent stability mechanism is part of the solution to the current crisis and this Bill confirms the ability of eurozone members to do that. Failing to approve or delaying the approval of the treaty amendment decision would further contribute to instability across the eurozone, of which there is plenty around already, and have a negative impact on the UK economy. As my right honourable friends the Prime Minister, the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary and the Chancellor have all repeatedly made clear, a stable eurozone is directly in the UK’s interests. It is a major market for our trade, and some would argue that its stability is key to unlocking the prospects for recovery and expansion in all the European and, indeed, global economies, and certainly including this one. Accepting these amendments would risk undermining that prospect of stability and growth further.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, I just want to make two points in reply; first, to the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon, after his interesting—almost astonishing—intervention about Greece. I do not think I said that the increased interest rates were the only reason that Greece is in difficulties. Although one can of course argue that the Greeks have been living beyond their means, for the past few years pressure has been put on them to get their budget into balance and they have been doing that. However, if at the same time the money that they have to borrow costs them more and more because of higher interest rates, it will make it more and more difficult for them to balance the books and meet their obligations. If the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon, had a mortgage on his house and was just managing to survive paying the mortgage at a certain interest rate, he would find it much more difficult if the building society unilaterally doubled or trebled the rate. So I hope that he will accept that, although it is not the only factor, it is an exacerbating factor that makes it more difficult for Greece to balance its books effectively.
I agree very much with what the Minister said about the importance of the stability of the eurozone. That is very, very important, not just from the point of view of the eurozone itself but for us in the United Kingdom. People who foolishly wish the break-up or fragmentation of the eurozone, or the falling-out of any one country, are doing this country—and our economy—a disservice. That is very clear in what President Obama and others have said as well. The continuation and the stability of the eurozone are very important indeed, as the Minister said. Because he argued that my amendments might create some problems in relation to that, and because he argued so powerfully in favour of giving as much stability to the eurozone as possible, I am happy to withdraw my amendment.
Falkland Islands
(11 years, 10 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat a Statement made in another place today.
“With permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Government of the Falkland Islands announced yesterday their intention to hold a referendum on the political status of the islands. The decision, which was taken by the Falkland Islanders themselves through their elected representatives, has the full support of the British Government. The referendum will be organised by the Falkland Island Government and will take place in the first half of 2013. Independent, international observers will be invited to observe the process.
In the past, the Falkland Islanders have made it clear that they wish to remain a self-governing British overseas territory and to continue living in the same peaceful and neighbourly manner which has characterised their long history on the islands, which stretches back some nine generations. They have no interest in becoming a province of Argentina. But, regrettably, not everyone is willing to accept this reality. The Argentine Defence Minister recently accused the UK military of holding the islanders as hostages. The Argentine ambassador to the UK has claimed that the islanders would be quite happy living under Argentine rule on the basis that some of them have been on holidays to Argentina. The islanders regularly rebut these baseless allegations and have embarked on an extensive campaign of public diplomacy around Latin America and more widely to make their views known. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office has offered extensive support to them in doing so. Despite this, the Argentine Government continue either to misrepresent their views or to disregard them as irrelevant.
Elsewhere in the region, the islanders are often surprised by the lack of understanding about their wishes and outlook on life. Because of this, the islanders have decided to hold a referendum to eliminate any possible doubt in the eyes of the world as to what future they want. This will provide a legal, fair and decisive means for the people of the Falkland Islands to express their views. The Minister of State responsible for the Falklands, my honourable friend the Member for Taunton, is on the islands at this time and has discussed the matter in detail with the islanders’ elected representatives. They are excited about the prospect of showing the region, and indeed the whole world, what future they want for the islands.
As the House will be aware, tomorrow marks the 30th anniversary of the liberation of the Falkland Islands by British forces. Events will be held both on the islands themselves and here in the UK to commemorate the extraordinary series of events which unfolded 30 years ago. We will remember all those who paid the ultimate price in defence of basic freedoms. For the Falkland Islanders, tomorrow will bring mixed emotions: thankfulness to those who fought and won, sorrow for those whose lives were lost, and anger that an attempt should ever have been made to invade their home and deny their basic rights. It is fitting that around the anniversary of their freedoms and rights being restored the islanders should announce their intention to give these freedoms further expression through a referendum. In a region that advocates democracy and human rights, it is entirely appropriate that the islanders can express this fundamental right. The principle of self-determination is a key part of the United Nations charter, as we and the islanders have repeatedly made clear and will continue to make clear.
While the current Argentine Government insist that they will seek to recover the islands only via peaceful means, their behaviour towards the islanders remains aggressive in many other ways. They have placed a ban on charter flights through Argentine airspace to the islands. They have banned Falkland Islands-flagged vessels from their ports and prevented cruise ships which have visited the Falklands from docking in Argentina. They have introduced domestic legislation to penalise companies that wish to do business with the Falkland Islands. They have sent threatening letters to those engaged in the wholly legitimate business of hydrocarbons exploration around the islands, and recently they have attempted to politicise the Olympic Games by screening a deeply offensive television advert showing images of an Argentine athlete training on a war memorial on the islands.
These actions, directed by the Argentine Government towards an innocent population of 3,000 people, are not those of a responsible power on the world stage. While the Argentine Government offer threats and misleading rhetoric, the islanders have responded with dignity and determination. For our part, the British Government will continue to offer unequivocal support to the islanders by maintaining a defensive military posture on the islands, by supporting their growing economy and by protecting their rights and wishes today as we did 30 years ago.
The forthcoming referendum will provide further evidence, were any needed, that the islanders alone will decide their future. It will offer a simple but powerful expression of democracy. I hope that Argentina, and indeed all in the international community, will take note of the islanders’ views. Further details will be announced by the Falkland Islands Government in due course, and I will keep the House informed of developments”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Lord Liddle
My Lords, I thank Minister for repeating the Statement made in the other place earlier today. The first duty of the Opposition on the 30th anniversary, tomorrow, of the liberation of the Falklands is to pay tribute to the British forces who served there and particularly to the 255 British service personnel who lost their lives. For our part, we express deep gratitude for their service.
The principle for which they then fought was the right of self-determination, which is enshrined in the United Nations charter. It is why today we back the right of the Falkland islanders to reaffirm that principle, that right of self-determination, and why a proposal for a referendum appears to the Opposition to be a reasonable response on their part to the very regrettable misrepresentations and provocations from the Argentine Government. For our part, we want good relations with Argentina and good relations between Argentina and the Falkland Islands. That is the best basis for a happy, secure and prosperous future all round.
A decade or so ago, it seemed as though much democratic progress was being made in Argentina. In my capacity as chair of the think tank Policy Network, I remember a progressive governance conference where we welcomed the late President Kirchner alongside President Lula and President Lagos. The hope was that Argentina was joining a democratic and progressive family. We are very concerned about the stepping up of Argentina’s rhetoric on the Falklands issue and about whether it is part of a wider campaign by an Administration who are facing very difficult domestic problems. It is a pattern that we have seen before in Argentina, a country that has great resources and fine people but, too often, dysfunctional politics and policies.
The Falkland Islanders are not alone in having difficulties with the Argentine Government. Spain has been incensed by Argentina’s forcible nationalisation of the Spanish stake in its oil company. We welcome the robust response not only from the Spanish Government but by our noble friend Lady Ashton, in her capacity as EU foreign policy representative, against what Argentina has done in this case. This is the kind of international support that we need to mobilise on the question of the Falklands. Can the Minister indicate what discussions have taken place with Spain and our other EU partners as to how we can get a more sensible attitude from the Argentinian authorities? Has the Foreign Office had discussions with my noble friend Lady Ashton, not just about the Spanish episode but also about the current Falklands situation?
More widely, what efforts are the Government making to establish good relations in Latin America? It is now a key British interest, given that this is one of the areas of spectacular economic growth in the world and an area where Britain has a lot of historic links. How are we planning to leverage up our relationships with other South American countries in order to isolate Argentina in the stance that it is taking on the Falklands?
The final point is our concern as to whether the Government are sending the wrong signals to the Argentinians. Many of us remember the Franks report and what happened 30-odd years ago, and how the then Prime Minister, the late Lord Callaghan, insisted on keeping a patrol vessel down in the south Atlantic despite the economic difficulties that Britain was suffering. However, the Conservative Government under the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, then withdrew that vessel. That was taken as a signal by the Argentinians that we were no longer that bothered. Are we sending a similar signal today, when we have decided that our aircraft carriers should no longer carry aircraft? That seems to me to be a relevant point to ask Her Majesty’s Government.
We want better relations to be established with Argentina, and between Argentina and the Falkland Islands, without conflict. In order to achieve that, the British Government have to have a strategy. I hope that the Minister can give us a glimpse of what it is.
Lord Howell of Guildford
I am very grateful to the noble Lord for the robust support which he, on behalf of his party, has given to this move, and the way in which he roundly and rightly emphasised the need to speak out against the very regrettable misrepresentations by the Argentinian Government of the situation. As the noble Lord said, his party wants good relations with Argentina. Of course, so do we all. It is a country of great potential with which, were it not for this situation, we would be able to work effectively to great benefit of the people of Argentina. That is apparently not the wish of the Argentinian Government, who have persisted with the aggressive attitude that was mentioned by my right honourable friend in his Statement.
As to the international scene, we of course work with all our EU partners, but there is no wish in Her Majesty’s Government to involve other countries in a bilateral relationship on a bilateral issue, which is fully confirmed under international law in accordance with the rights of self-determination which nations across the globe fully recognise. We have made major strides in the past year or so in developing excellent relations with Latin American countries. Latin America is emerging, as are all the great developing nations of this earth, as a major and significant player in world affairs, as a vital new market for our goods and as a source of the generation of wealth and political influence. Both my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary, and my honourable friend the Minister of State, Jeremy Browne, have been tireless in their work in that region in establishing—or re-establishing, because this is part of history—very good links with these great and important nations. Work is going on at various international conferences. Some very firm lines have been taken about the need for self-determination. This has been a very robust response, even when Argentinian diplomats have tried to involve other countries in their cause in various ways. That is the situation at present.
The noble Lord talks about a strategy for the future. The strategy rests on the rock of our commitment to the islanders’ wishes and their determination to be a self-governing territory of the United Kingdom. That is what they wish to remain to be, and the referendum will no doubt establish beyond doubt that there is no change in these wishes, and that they are determined to assert their preferences. That is all I have to say on the matter, beyond, again, to thank the noble Lord for his robust support.
Baroness Hooper
My Lords, would the Minister agree that one of the more disturbing developments has been the way in which the Argentine Government have persuaded many other countries in the region, even great friends of ours such as Uruguay and Chile, to deny entry to British naval vessels? Can he reassure us that our embassies in those countries are working hard to refute the unsubstantiated messages put forward by the present government in Argentina? Also, can he agree that as in the case of the Gibraltar referendum a few years ago, a clear message from the people of the Falkland Islands would be most helpful? Will he also be kind enough to convey to the people of the Falkland Islands the fact that we are all fully behind them, especially at this time?
Lord Howell of Guildford
Yes, I will certainly do that, and convey that in clear and simple terms. As to the efforts of Argentine diplomacy to persuade others to support their posture and their claims, I can assure my noble friend that our embassies, our diplomatic machinery and my ministerial colleagues are fully engaged in countering some of the misrepresentations that are being aired around the place. We have had a good response from responsible friends that they are not going to be automatically pushed by Argentina or by claims that go flatly against the basic principle of self-determination for the peoples of the Falkland Islands. This is the 21st century, in which overriding the self-determination of peoples is not the custom or the desirable pattern, or indeed in accordance with full international responsibility. We have made that very clear and will continue to do so.
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, 30 years ago—almost to the day—I sat in some sorrow writing letters to the mothers, wives, siblings and children, of the 22 boys who were killed when my ship was sunk. This task was made a little easier, first because I was very proud of them, and secondly because I felt we had been involved in a just war. I am appalled by the behaviour of the President of Argentina in making outrageous statements about the Falkland islanders purely to distract attention from what is going on in her own country. She seems to forget that the only reason she is there democratically is because we won that war. However, the Minister will be glad to hear that my question does not relate precisely to aircraft carriers and warships but rather as to whether he would join me in agreeing that we owe a huge amount to our merchant marine, 73 of whose vessels were involved in the Falklands War? Does he believe that we have sufficient British merchant mariners today to ensure that if there is trouble globally, we are able to provide the merchant ships, which are so crucial for global operations? They are after all the “fourth service”, as they were referred to by Winston Churchill.
Lord Howell of Guildford
The House will be very grateful to the noble Lord, who speaks to us from the heart of history. He was there and experienced the agonies and challenges of that time, 30 years ago. The country is grateful to him for that as well. As to his question about whether we have the resources to meet global problems, one has to be realistic. If all sorts of crises were to develop on all sorts of fronts—for instance, all the pinch points in the world traffic of oil, gas and energy—no one country could deliver a full Merchant Marine to cover that. Do we have the resources to defend the Falkland Islands against the dreadful, absurd and almost ridiculous prospect of a threat from Argentina again? Yes, we do, but I hope that Argentina will not be stupid enough to do that. We certainly intend to maintain those resources; there can be no doubt at all about that.
However, who knows what great world threats may develop in these troubled times? If they do, we obviously have to act closely with our allies. One could not expect one country alone—perhaps not even the mighty United States—to be able to mobilise adequate resources for all the troubles in the world. There are plenty, not least the piracy on the eastern side of Africa—and, increasingly, on the western side—which now take some of our resources. There are many other problems as well.
Lord Davies of Stamford
The noble Lord has already received what he rightly described as robust support from my noble friend on behalf of the Opposition for the Government’s support for this referendum, and for his justified words in describing the recent behaviour of the Argentinian Government. I think he will get equally robust support universally, throughout the House this afternoon. I hope that he is able to tell the Argentinian ambassador about that personally.
However, I am afraid that the Government cannot escape a wide measure of responsibility for the very bad change in the situation over the past year, particularly in the behaviour of the Argentinians. It was the worst possible signal to send to Argentina when we got rid of our carrier strike capability. We sent a signal that if the Falkland Islands were ever invaded again in the future, next time we would not be able to retake them. That was thoroughly deplorable. In this very unfortunate situation, will the Government consider the possibility of regularly deploying a “Trafalgar”-class or, prospectively, an “Astute”-class submarine in the south Atlantic? It should surface from time to time to leave no doubt in anybody’s mind that it is there.
Lord Howell of Guildford
I cannot comment on the movements of our submarines or on related intelligence matters. I applaud what the noble Lord said at the beginning but completely refute his later sentences. There are forces in the Falklands. We are perfectly well placed to rebut and repel any renewed invasion. Decisions about the strategic defence review, the future of our carriers and so on have no effect whatever on that sustained ability to defend the islanders against another invasion.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
My Lords, I express our gratitude to the families of the service personnel who made the ultimate sacrifice. On behalf of others in the House, I say how grateful we are to hear from the noble Lord, Lord West, when he speaks with such passion about the events of 30 years ago.
My question is about the conduct of the referendum. The Falkland Islands Government have obviously been very bold in making this move to demonstrate their confidence in their ability to determine their own future. I note that the Statement says that international observers will be invited to observe the process. I wonder whether my noble friend might suggest to the Falkland Islands Government that it is important to have observers from Latin American countries to demonstrate the rigour of the process. That would be most helpful in countering Argentina’s public relations, which are of course inaccurate.
Lord Howell of Guildford
If I may say so to my noble friend, that is a very interesting thought, which I will certainly pass on to my colleagues. It will be important to establish beyond doubt that whatever emerges from the referendum is absolutely and properly established, and that the whole process is properly conducted. Of course it is undeniably on a very small scale, and therefore the monitoring and checking should be absolutely 100% proof that this is a sensible and precise expression of the wishes of the islanders.
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan
I welcome the Statement by the Minister, and declare an interest in so far as I am the chairman of the South Atlantic Council, a body established after the war to try to improve the triangular relations between the islanders, Argentina and the United Kingdom. The degree of success that we have enjoyed has been variable, but it must be made clear that sabre-rattling by the United Kingdom at this time is irrelevant, because democracy followed the war in Argentina and that, in turn, resulted in the demilitarisation of its economy and the country. The defence cuts of which we are talking this afternoon in the United Kingdom are as nothing compared to what has taken place in Argentina. It is therefore totally unrealistic to talk in terms of a military threat from Argentina. The Malvinas mania going on in Buenos Aires and across the country is concerned primarily with disguising the economic chaos engulfing that country.
We should take Gibraltar as a pointer. When a clear expression of democratic opinion was made, Spain began to think again about how it dealt with the problem of Gibraltar. In the kind of triumphalist rhetoric in which we sometimes indulge regarding the Falklands, it would be unfortunate if we failed to think about what should happen after the referendum. Now, for the first time in several years, there is an ambassador to the Court of St James’s from Argentina. Let us take advantage of that, and start a dialogue rather than just the haranguing which has been carrying on for the last few years. Let us use the opportunity of what I am fairly confident will be a clear expression of the opinion of the people of the islands that they wish to retain the status quo. There are many things—fishing, hydrocarbons, tourism, shipping, flights to the islands—which should be the subject of clear and straightforward negotiation. This could provide us with an opportunity to start afresh after many lost years—largely lost, I have to say, due to Argentine intransigence.
Lord Howell of Guildford
The noble Lord is extremely well informed on this and has followed it very closely. Of course, leaving aside sovereignty and the wishes of the islanders to remain a self-governing territory of the United Kingdom—very clearly expressed, and I am sure they will be again—a whole range of things have been offered to Argentina. There is much talk, of course, about the hydrocarbons explorations around the island. Thirty years ago, when I was involved in some administration of this country on energy matters, one of the files on my desk was concerned with exploration of the hydrocarbons around the Falklands—and that was right at the start of this, in 1980. All along, and increasingly and very specifically in the 1990s, offers were made to the Argentinean people to co-operate very closely and to share the benefits of anything that emerged. That was just one example; the noble Lord gave many others. There is a whole range of areas where there could be extreme benefit to the people of Argentina, but they must not include—and in fact must exclude—the consideration of the sovereignty and the self-determination of the people of the Falkland Islands.
Lord Deben
Is my noble friend aware that the Argentine Government have been arguing against the referendum on the basis that those taking part will be settlers, or the children of settlers, on the Falkland Islands? Will it be possible for him to bring to the attention of the Argentine ambassador the fact that she is a settler and the child of settlers, that there is no voter for the President of the Argentine who is not himself or herself a settler, and that if we are talking about settlers we are all in it together?
Lord Howell of Guildford
My noble friend makes a very acute historical point that many of the inhabitants of almost every country on earth are settlers; one thinks, not least, of the United States. I believe that the ancestors of many here were also settlers. Indeed, I often hear divisions between the arriviste Norman settlers who came in in 1066 and those who were here already, so my noble friend makes a very good point. However, I do not intend to pursue it with the Argentine ambassador. I have had the opportunity to meet her and I believe that the view that we should express in this country is not one of tit for tat but a dignified intention that the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands people must be preserved, that we wish Argentina well, and that we would like an end to this distracting quarrel and the restoration of the co-operation and links which we once had with the Argentine.
Lord Gilbert
My Lords, it will be within your Lordships’ knowledge that unfortunately down the years we have not always enjoyed the full support of our American friends with respect to matters relating to the Falklands. The situation is slightly different now. If the reports are accurate, the present American Secretary of State is so disturbed at the irrationality of some of the decisions being made by the Argentine President on a whole range of subjects, a lot of which have nothing whatever to do with the Falkland Islands, that there may well be a change in American attitudes to the situation down there. Therefore, I press on the Minister the desirability of inviting our American friends to give their full support to this referendum and say that it demonstrates that democracy works.
Lord Howell of Guildford
We shall certainly seek to follow that advice. The noble Lord is absolutely right: there are big changes in the region. Not least is that, with the revolution in world gas discoveries and developments, Argentina in due course could be a major beneficiary and have huge reserves of shale gas. This ought to be of benefit to the Argentinian people. That is the path they should follow rather than distracting themselves with complaints and aggression against the Falkland Islands.
Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, the Minister said that the Government were not anxious to involve other Governments in the Falklands problem, which I quite understand, but is that altogether wise? The European Union has a treaty obligation to defend trade from EU countries, wherever it occurs. As I understand it, it has taken a very dim view of the Argentine nationalisation of Repsol. I believe that the Foreign Affairs Council met about two weeks ago to decide what the European Union was going to do about it. This is relevant for us because, as the noble Lord quite rightly points out, the Falklands may prove to be a very substantial offshore oil province and if there is any intervention the EU as well as ourselves should be there to defend it. Can he tell the House what the Foreign Affairs Council of the European Union decided with regard to Repsol at its meeting about two weeks ago and whether we are going to involve the European Union in defence of the Falklands offshore hydrocarbon exploration?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I think, from memory, that the Foreign Affairs Council deplored the nationalisation of the Repsol-connected subsidiary in the Argentine. I will check on that to be 100% sure and if I am wrong I will contact the noble Lord. However, he is really making a broader, very profound point that there are all sorts of reasons, as have already been raised this afternoon, why responsible democracies, whether in the EU or elsewhere, should be concerned about the actions of various kinds being taken by the Argentine Government. The nationalisation of the Repsol subsidiary obviously greatly affects Spain. Any other measures interfering with free trade and trade with European Union powers affect them very greatly.
As far as the specific matter of the Falkland Islands’ wish to remain a self-governing territory under the United Kingdom is concerned, that is a bilateral issue. However, it is perfectly sensible that we should work with other EU countries on policy and general matters towards Argentina and towards hydrocarbon development off the coast of Latin America or anywhere else. It is certainly something that would become involved in our discussions. On the specific point of the last FAC meeting, I will check and confirm what I have said.
Lord Tordoff
My Lords, some years ago I had the pleasure of visiting the islands with the South Atlantic Council, under the aegis of the noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery. On that visit, there were a number of people from industry and the arts with various connections here. In particular, there were two colleagues of mine from the oil side of the Anglo-Dutch company which I served for many years. They made it very clear that political instability in that area was a real disincentive to exploration. Perhaps the Argentines can be reminded of this, with the things they have been doing recently. There is no great incentive for oil companies to go into areas like this which are difficult enough geologically, but are made worse by political instability. They are probably doing themselves a lot of damage.
Lord Howell of Guildford
My noble friend is entirely correct. This applies not merely to drilling for exploration. As those—including my noble friend—who are familiar with it know, then comes development, which is expensive, and after that production, which is also extremely expensive. Vast sums of money have to be invested and big investors will not move if there is a severe threat of political instability. He is quite right that it therefore affects the prosperity not just of the Falkland Islanders but of the whole area. In various ways it damages the interests of the people of Argentina and we should point that out.
Civil Aviation Bill
(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, we are an island nation and our access to the rest of the world—and the rest of the world’s access to us—is primarily through air travel. That is why the aviation sector is so important to our economy. In 2010, goods worth £113 billion were moved by air between the UK and non-EU countries. In the same year, UK airports served nearly 400 international destinations. That level of activity is possible because over the past 30 years the aviation industry has changed to meet the needs of the customer. The emergence of low-cost carriers is one example of how the industry has innovated and diversified. There has also been an increase in the number of people travelling by air in this country, from 59 million passengers in 1982 to 211 million in 2010.
While the sector has changed dramatically, the regulatory framework which governs it has not. Much of our aviation regulation originated in the 1980s, and needs to be brought into the 21st century. The Government are committed to bringing vital reform to our aviation regulation. In a moment I will set out this reform in more detail, but let me first make clear the important theme that runs through the Bill: putting the interests of the passenger at the heart of airport regulation. For the first time, the CAA’s primary economic regulation duty will be to users of air transport services—that is, the passengers and owners of cargo.
The Bill introduces reform in four areas: the economic regulation of airports, the legislative framework of the CAA, the Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing scheme, and aviation security. I would like to explain each of these in turn, beginning with the reform to the economic regulation of airports. In the UK, the gas, electricity, water, telecoms and post sectors all have some level of economic regulation. Economic regulation typically operates through an independent regulator capping the prices that companies with substantial market power are able to charge and specifying levels of service quality. Much of the aviation industry in this country is competitive. That is how the Government prefer it to be. Effective competition gives firms the incentives to invest and improve efficiency, choice, and service quality.
However, a small number of airports—currently Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted—have substantial market power and are not subject to sufficient levels of competition. In order to replicate the effects of a competitive market on these airports, the CAA exercises its powers of economic regulation in the form of price caps and service quality requirements. However, there is compelling evidence that the framework for the economic regulation of airports needs updating. The Competition Commission has concluded that the regime distorts competition between airlines and should be reformed. Advice from an independent panel of experts and responses from three evidence-gathering exercises has further indicated that the current regime is not fit for purpose. I should also add that the previous Government agreed that reform is necessary—a fact that helps explain the considerable degree of cross-party support the Bill has attracted so far.
The most common criticisms of the current regime are that the regulation is disproportionate and difficult to adapt to individual airports, that the CAA is unable to respond effectively to extraordinary events such as volcanic ash or extreme weather, that the regulator is insufficiently accountable for its decisions and its priorities are unclear, and that the regulatory process is burdensome and inefficient. The Bill would remedy these problems.
Where the current legislation gives the CAA four separate and sometimes competing duties, the Bill replaces them with a primary duty to passengers and owners of cargo. Where the CAA is presently constrained by rigid rules that require it to set five-year price caps when regulating dominant airports, the Bill would give the CAA a modern licensing system. Under this new system, licence conditions could be tailored to individual airports to tackle specific challenges at particular times. This licensing system would also enable the CAA to reduce the degree of economic regulation imposed on individual airports if it believed that this would benefit passengers. For example, instead of controlling prices, it could monitor prices while regulating certain aspects of service quality. The new system would also enable the CAA to impose different regulatory time periods. For example, setting longer periods for price controls would provide greater certainty and could stimulate investment.
Currently, it is the responsibility of the Secretary of State to decide which airports should be subject to economic regulation. The Bill proposes that the CAA, as an independent and expert body, should make that decision against clearly defined criteria set out in the legislation. Another criticism of the current regime is the lack of accountability it provides for key regulatory decisions. At present, judicial review is the only way to challenge the CAA’s decisions on the price cap and service quality standards that airports must meet. Under the Bill, the licence conditions imposed will be appealable by the licence holders and materially affected airlines. These appeals will be made to the Competition Commission, thereby removing the need to go straight to judicial review. The decision on whether an airport is dominant will be also be appealable to the Competition Appeal Tribunal. To summarise, the reforms will deliver a new system of regulation that is fairer, more flexible, and more focused than the current regime.
I turn to reforming the legislative framework of the CAA itself. Measures in Part 2 of the Bill will change the way in which the CAA operates, improving transparency and accountability; removing unnecessary government involvement and funding; and cutting red tape. The Government believe that a more transparent system of providing information would be of benefit to the public. At the moment it is very difficult for passengers to compare air services—for example, to establish which airline is most likely to lose luggage, or which airport garners the most complaints from passengers. It is also difficult for consumers to find out environmental information about aviation.
In 2011, PricewaterhouseCoopers looked at the reports of 46 world airlines and found, for example, that only one-third reported on their noise levels. The Bill will create a new duty for the CAA to publish, or arrange for the aviation sector to publish, information to help users compare services. The CAA will also be given a duty to inform the public about the environmental effects of civil aviation in the UK. It is important that these duties are performed proportionately, so the CAA will have to consult on its approach and have regard to the principle that the benefits of taking action should outweigh any adverse effects.
Other measures to modernise the legislative framework of the CAA include giving the CAA new freedoms to appoint its own executive directors. Where at the moment the CAA has recourse only to slow, costly, and often disproportionate criminal sanctions in enforcing regulations, the Bill will enable the Secretary of State to give the CAA powers to enforce offences through civil sanctions. I am pleased to say that Part 2 of the Bill also brings forward a recommendation that was made by this House.
In the course of its licensing duties, the CAA collects medical data on individuals in the air transport industry. In 2007, your Lordships’ Committee on Science and Technology, as part of its inquiry into air travel and health, recommended that anonymised medical data held by the CAA should be made available for ethically approved medical research. Clause 104 meets this recommendation. Of course, we have built in safeguards to help to ensure these data are used appropriately. I urge your Lordships to read the appropriate section carefully.
I will now move on to our proposals to improve the regulation of aviation security. Keeping people safe and secure when they travel is of prime importance. At present, aviation safety is regulated by the CAA, while security regulation is carried out by the DfT. The Bill would move security regulation from the DfT to the expert regulator, the CAA. On both safety and security, the aviation industry would have to deal with only one regulator, not two. The move would have the further advantage of bringing the “user pays” principle to aviation security. The costs of the aviation industry should, as far as possible, be paid for by the people who use it. At the moment, the aviation industry pays for safety regulation, but the public purse pays for security regulation. The position under the Bill would be fairer.
The final measure in the Bill that I will mention, which accounts for just one clause, Clause 94, is the reform to the Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing scheme—ATOL for short. Over the years the ATOL scheme has given peace of mind to millions of holidaymakers who have known that because their holiday is covered by the scheme they will not be left stranded or out of pocket if their travel company becomes insolvent. However, diversification in the holiday market since the scheme was set up—in particular, the changes associated with internet booking—mean that it is no longer clear to some consumers whether their holiday is ATOL-protected or not.
Certain sorts of holiday—for example, those sold by airlines and on an agent for the consumer basis—cannot currently be required to be included in the ATOL scheme because they fall outside the relevant powers in Section 71 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982. So Clause 94 of this Bill would allow us to improve clarity for the consumer, by giving the Secretary of State powers to add more holidays to the ATOL scheme, including holidays sold by airlines and agents for the consumer. This should also mean that businesses selling holidays that include a flight will have a more coherent and consistent regulatory framework in which to operate.
The Civil Aviation Bill has undergone thorough scrutiny—
Lord Clinton-Davis
The Minister is right to stress the importance of aviation to this country. Does it not follow that the pilots are an extremely important part of that? Why did 91% of the members of the BALPA union consider the Government to be not supporting the industry sufficiently? Is that not a serious point that ought to be taken into account?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am sure it is a very serious point. I will be meeting representatives of BALPA shortly, certainly before the Committee stage starts.
The Transport Committee found the Bill to be clearly welcomed by the aviation industry, including airlines, airports and the CAA. It also found that the draft Bill has been,
“subject to detailed review and consultation over a lengthy period”—
and, although it raised some points which have since been picked up in the Commons, it found that the Bill—
“appears to offer a better way to regulate UK airports in the future”.
I look forward to debating the merits of the Bill with your Lordships in this Chamber. I am confident that we will maintain the high level of scrutiny that the Bill deserves and has attracted so far.
I beg to move.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his clear exposition of the contents of this important Bill. He will know that we, on this side of the House, are familiar and indeed, supportive, of its broad structure. That is not surprising since, as the Minister indicated, the Bill was under preparation by Labour Ministers not so very long ago.
That does not mean that, while accepting the broad principles underpinning the Bill, we do not find much of the detail disappointing. Of course, we will seek to reflect that disappointment in a constructive way in Committee, in our amendments. The Bill, after all, was driven through the Commons with almost no concessions to our Front Bench team’s well argued criticisms and constructive amendments, and not all the Government’s arguments against those amendments were wholly convincing.
My noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis reminds us that the Bill also needs to be put in some context. Of course, I welcome it, as one of the first positive signs from the department of constructive work on the aviation industry, after we have, for two years, seen the Government tread water in circumstances where the industry has been making its demands very clear.
Those demands, as the Minister indicated, are impressive and insistent, because this is an industry that expands and grows, of which we should be proud and solicitous to its needs. Yet, we still await the broader context in which to view this Bill in terms of the Government’s future aviation policy.
Usually when I make these points, the Minister treats me to a “not just yet” response that suggests I should bide my time. Today he did not even do that; I got nothing from him on when aviation policy will be made manifest. Perhaps when he winds up the debate he will have some words of solace for those of us who are still extremely anxious about what the Government may propose.
As the Minister said, the Bill sets out to modernise the regulatory framework for civil aviation. We endorse the broad thrust of the reforms to the economic regulation of airports and to the legislative framework of the Civil Aviation Authority. We support many of these changes, improvements and reforms. The Bill seeks to make the Civil Aviation Authority more effective and, as the Minister emphasised, more accountable. That is to be commended. We also support in broad terms the transfer to the CAA of certain aviation security functions from the Department for Transport. However, we have anxieties in this area. I am sure that they will be shared by noble Lords when we discuss them in detail, and may even be voiced today at Second Reading.
We also approve of the strengthening of the Secretary of State’s powers so that holidays sold by airlines—an increasing feature of the holiday trade—can be included in the ATOL scheme, with its greater consumer protection. Again, we have one or two questions that we will address in detail, but it is a most welcome development. We will seek to ensure that the Minister fulfils his claim that the Bill will put the consumer, the passenger and the user at the centre of arrangements for governing the industry.
However, the problem is that the Bill seeks to implement these changes in ways of which we are strongly critical. In particular, the Government’s backsliding on the policies necessary to moderate climate change is already evident in key areas of the economy, and aviation is no exception. The Bill gave an opportunity to the Government at least to show an earnest intention on these issues, but it is inadequate. We look forward to lively debates in Committee. The Bill weakens the terms of proposed environmental obligations and sends the wrong signals to the industry. There is no longer a clear duty on the Civil Aviation Authority in its crucial role of economic regulation to have regard to compliance in airports’ operations with environmental and planning law.
Airports are major economic activities. We address a lot of our attention to one of the world’s great airports that is by far the most significant one in the UK: London Heathrow. However, other airports are very significant economic enterprises in their areas, and there are consequences from their considerable economic activity. That is why environmental concerns about their operations have been well articulated by the public for many years, particularly in the case of Heathrow, which has the disadvantage of being our largest airport and yet located within the confines of the M25 in an area of very considerable population density. Yet the Bill limits the legislative pressure on the Civil Aviation Authority, and thus the airports, so that investment in improving environmental performance may be reduced. Our amendments in the Commons were rejected by the Government in Committee and on Report. When I say “the Government”, I mean the full coalition Government—the Liberal Democrats participated as fully in this rejection as the Conservatives —and the Minister, therefore, is bound to expect that he will be strongly challenged by us in Committee. We shall table amendments to impose a duty on the CAA to ensure that aviation plays its part in meeting the UK’s carbon reduction targets.
The Minister emphasised that improved passenger welfare is a very important objective in the Bill. We have only to cast our minds back to the suffering of stranded passengers in the winter of 2010-11 to recognise how little consideration was given to passengers at that time. We do not consider that the provisions in the Bill meet the necessary requirements and we shall seek to strengthen the obligations of the airports and the CAA. The House of Commons Select Committee on Transport expressed strong concerns about passenger welfare and we agree that the Bill should guarantee that airport licences will be so structured as to address fully key areas of passenger satisfaction, including baggage handling, which is problematic enough, and the even thornier issue of immigration. Recent Government proposals on strengthening immigration controls have significant implications for busy airports, as we have all found out in the past 12 months. We shall explore the transfer of responsibility for security from the department to the CAA. We are concerned that the proposals are motivated more by reducing departmental expenditure than efficiency in action. The House will be concerned about how effective are those proposals. The airlines, of course, are concerned about the likely costs of this transfer, and we are worried about reduced efficiency when highly qualified and experienced staff are subjected to major change in their employment conditions and the organisation for which they work. The morale of staff is an important issue so far as security is concerned and the Government must recognise that they cannot just flick a switch in this area and expect this particular light to come on readily. They must reassure us that they are approaching this issue with the greatest amount of care and consultation.
The House of Commons Select Committee on Transport also recommended that the CAA should be brought within the remit of the National Audit Office—after all, the Minister has expressed that the objective of the Bill is to make the CAA more accountable—but the Government in Committee and on Report in the Commons were singularly unconvincing in their arguments on the issue of this important financial control over an expanding CAA. We remain utterly unconvinced by their arguments. Of course, we shall have the opportunity of examining this important case in Committee.
The Bill affords us a significant opportunity to cause the Government to think again about the important changes to the role of the Civil Aviation Authority. Of course, we agree entirely that the Civil Aviation Authority was overdue for reform in a rapidly changing industry and that, in this changing environment, it is essential that it is fit for purpose. That is why so much preparatory work was done under the previous Administration. However, the Bill introduced by the Government—the Bill before the House today—has obvious departures from the thinking that was present in its early stages. We shall seek to harness the informed opinion available on all sides of this House to effect necessary changes.
Lord Bradshaw
My Lords, this is not a debate about determining new runway capacity. I believe that we can make much better use of the capacity we already have. In preparation for this Bill, I have been to Luton, Gatwick, Stansted, and Birmingham airports. It is obvious that there is plenty of spare capacity which can be bought online. Releasing capacity is very much tied in with having good quality public transport access. This area needs attention and probably ought to be addressed when the Government consider the HLOS target for the railway. However, the improvements to surface capacity—for example, between Stansted and London—would benefit a huge number of people who live in the Lea Valley and at the moment enjoy what I would call a less-than-good train service.
I wish that people would stop talking down—I am talking about what is going in the press, not in this debate—the ability of airports within easy reach of London to maintain good air services throughout the world. If we take Germany as an example, it is not necessary to have one hub airport which offers everything. Members will know that, for example, Gatwick now has two services to China, one to Hong Kong and one to South Korea, and one other which has been started recently. It shows that when there is competition between the airports, they seek out the markets to which Heathrow draws a lot of attention but which can, in fact, be served quite effectively by other places. Gatwick and Birmingham are not far from London, and Luton would be very much more convenient if the arrangements for getting people from the train to the plane were anything other than third world.
We support the general thrust of the Bill and, particularly, devolved power to the CAA and the extension of the ATOL licence to enhance the protection of passengers and holidaymakers. Does the Minister consider that the proposed charges are sufficient to eliminate the insolvency of the Air Travel Trust Fund? That is, the fund out of which people are compensated, which I believe has an accumulated deficit of £40 million. However, we are more concerned that the CAA should have environmental objectives and duties relating to pollution and noise. These objectives should, of course, be funded by airport charges levied on airlines. Again, is the noble Earl minded to engage seriously with the environmental issues of pollution and noise?
I am a little concerned about the words in the Bill concerning a market power test. When Stansted, Gatwick and Heathrow were all part of the British Airways Authority there was not much competition between them, but Gatwick has shown that there can be competition. It has 25% spare capacity and could be an effective competitor for a number of services from Heathrow. Unless there is market power, there is no need for regulation. Regulation is necessary in the absence of fair competition.
I want to draw the Minister’s attention to the scope of rights of appeal, which he touched on in his opening remarks. To protect airport investment in environmental improvements, many airlines will attempt to use the proposed appeal mechanism as a delaying tactic. I leave it to noble Lords to imagine which airlines might wish to avoid any charges at all, but they will have to be made if we are to meet the objectives. Of course, the environmental duty should apply not only to the three designated airports, but to those which handle more than 5 million passengers a year. That would include Manchester, Luton, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Bristol and Liverpool airports.
There is also concern that in proposing to control the environmental problems, the CAA will invent, as it were, a new bureaucracy. Almost all of the airports’ annual reports include reports about pollution and noise, as well as on things like the use of water and salvage. We should not seek to duplicate work, but simply to harmonise best practice between the various airports.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Will the noble Lord say something about the new generation of aircraft? Are they not bound to be able to limit noise more effectively?
Lord Bradshaw
Of course they will because every aircraft manufacturer is striving to produce quieter aircraft, and that we would like to see. It is not just a question of noise from the aircraft, it also concerns maintaining the right take-off trajectory and angle of climb, which can significantly reduce noise. However, I would draw the noble Lord’s attention to the fact that more than 50% of the pollution relates to ground access. It is not the aircraft, but what happens on the ground, and it is that area which I would ask the CAA particularly to review.
Lastly, I refer to the practice of stacking. What progress is being made on the elimination of stacking through better control of the airspace? It is not reasonable for an aircraft flying from Hong Kong to arrive an hour early and then circle around London. If there is a tail wind, the whole flight can be regulated so that the aircraft travels less quickly, which would save fuel and ensure that it arrives at London airport when it is ready to accept it. We should try to use technology and the single-sky policy to control airspace generally and thus ensure that aeroplanes reach their destinations on time. You cannot have trains stacked outside stations; you have timetables to regulate them. I believe that the same is true of aircraft.
The Countess of Mar
My Lords, I feel I have been here before. During the passage of the previous Civil Aviation Bill in 2006, I recall long discussions on Clause 8, relating to health—the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, may recall our exchanges then. These included my concerns, and those of injured pilots, over the effects of breathing what is known as “bleed air”, which could contain organophosphates, on the health of both airline crew and passengers.
The Civil Aviation Bill before us today includes the requirement under Clause 84, “Environmental information”, that:
“The CAA must publish, or arrange for the publication of, such information and advice as it considers appropriate relating to—
(a) the environmental effects of civil aviation in the United Kingdom,
(b) how human health and safety is, or may be, affected by such effects, and
(c) measures taken, or proposed to be taken, with a view to reducing, controlling or mitigating the adverse environmental effects of civil aviation in the United Kingdom”.
This is to be welcomed, but I would suggest that there is one environment in particular where this duty is avoided: the cabin environment. Despite growing evidence, contaminated cabin air continues to be a very serious threat to the safety and health of air crew and passengers of all ages. This has been known since 1954. Indeed, a year later, an engineer from the company that is now part of Boeing recommended that,
“in light of the risk of exposure to oil fumes in flight, airlines should either operate non-bleed ventilation systems or filter the engine bleed air before supplying it to passengers”.
The Civil Aviation Act 2006 clearly sets out the responsibility of the Secretary of State and the Civil Aviation Authority for,
“organising, carrying out and encouraging measures for safeguarding the health of persons on board aircraft”.
Five years ago, the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, welcomed the House of Lords Science and Technology Committee’s 2007 report on air travel and its call for urgent action on contaminated air, saying that this was a,
“very serious matter of public safety”.
Since that time, some research has been undertaken by the Department for Transport-sponsored Institute of Environment and Health at Cranfield University—more of which later.
I believe that more rigorous action is required and this duty cannot be abdicated in favour of the European Aviation Safety Agency—EASA. In 2007, the House of Commons Transport Committee’s report on the work on the Civil Aviation Authority stated that EASA was,
“not yet ready to do its job and it is vital that the UK transfers no further responsibilities to it. I see no evidence that the position has changed”.
Apart from the new Boeing 787, passenger aircraft use unfiltered, heated air drawn directly from aircraft engines and auxiliary power units for cabin air conditioning. This is termed bleed air, because it is bled from the compressor section of the engine. This system has been used since just after World War II, when engine temperatures and pressures were considerably lower than today. The use of compressed air for ventilation was described in 1946 as “fortuitous”. With rising oil prices, the aviation industry was faced with huge commercial challenges; since the initial introduction of bleed air, both performance and efficiency have become critical. As a result, it is normal for the temperatures to which oils are now exposed within the engine to be far higher. This is a serious toxicity concern because the base stock of the oil is known to thermally degrade when exposed to extreme temperatures. Combine this with the known design fault in engine oil seals and you have the perfect conditions for low-level oil leakage that can expose passengers and crew to toxic fumes through the unfiltered air they are breathing.
As highlighted in the recently published Australian Civil Aviation Safety Authority—CASA—report:
“Exposure to … fumes and vapours can result in acute short-term symptoms”.
The report stated that the organophosphate family of TCP includes TOCP, which is a known substance in engine oils and can cause adverse health effects. In some individuals, long-term disability and forced retirement have resulted from long-term exposure. Pilots and air crew are particularly vulnerable.
It was also proven in the 1950s that other parts of the TCP family in the oil were even more toxic than TOCP, and these were later acknowledged to be in the oil at far greater levels than TOCP. Even more concerning is the recent research undertaken by the University of Washington, which has found that the entire family of TCP chemicals is toxic. I am sure that I do not need to remind your Lordships that organophosphates are neurotoxins—also commonly known as nerve agents. A small ongoing study undertaken at the University of Nebraska has recently published an astonishing finding that 50% of airline passengers tested positive to exposure to TOCP. This was one flight only with a wide spectrum of people on board—it could have been you or me, or a member of our families. There have been many reports of contaminated air incidents for many different airlines. I can provide details if any noble Lord is interested.
A report from the German air accident investigation bureau, the BFU, showed a serious incident late in 2011 in which a Boeing 737 co-pilot was partially incapacitated shortly after take-off and again on descent after smelling a pungent smell. Blood tests undertaken at the University of Nebraska found,
“that the blood sample (was) positive for exposure to TOCP”.
Recent PhD findings by Dr Susan Michaelis, specifically investigating this issue, found that 32% of the UK pilots in the survey population experienced medium to long-term ill health, 44% reported short-term effects and 13% experienced such chronic ill health that they were no longer able to fly. What we have here are threats to flight safety combined with a public health issue that can no longer be ignored.
The United States Air Force’s newest fighter aircraft has been having major problems with the oxygen system, with pilots reporting a range of hypoxic-like physiological symptoms. With a growing number of in-flight incidents, the United States Air Force grounded its F22 fleet for several months from May until September 2011. Several investigations failed to find the root cause of the problem and the US Secretary of State for Defence recently limited the aircraft’s operational capabilities and required NASA to resolve the issue. The F22 on-board oxygen-generating system takes some of its supply from the bleed-air system, and contaminated bleed air is one of the two issues considered to be the potential cause of the problem.
While attention is often focused on certain aircraft types, such as the BAe 146 and the Boeing 757, in fact the bleed-air system suffers from a flawed design affecting all aircraft using bleed air to supply cabin air for breathing. These fume events are alarming, both in their severity and their frequency. However, many sources—including Dr Susan Michaelis, the European Aviation Safety Agency and the Federal Aviation Administration in the US—have shown that these dangerous events are actually being underreported. What we have is a failed reporting system.
A survey for BALPA undertaken in 2001 and later published in a leading occupational health journal showed that less than 4% of the contaminated air events experienced by pilots in aircraft were recorded on the CAA mandatory occurrence report database. Pilots and cabin crew are too often unaware of, or complacent about, the health and safety implications and come from a culture that accepts fume smells as normal. Worse still, too many are too frightened to report such incidents for fear of losing their jobs. They are aware of the commercial pressure on airlines as, once a defect such as contaminated air is reported, it must be investigated before the aircraft can fly again. I am aware that DHL instructed its pilots not to report selected fume events, confirmed by the CAA in the House of Commons, because these are “acceptable”. This is in direct contradiction of European regulation 859/2008, which states that incidents that could endanger aircraft safety should be reported to the regulator and recorded in the aircraft technical log. Furthermore, European Directive 2003/42/EC requires all suspected oil fume or contaminated air events to be reported to the national authority. I know that the Minister is aware of this because he has given me that answer in reply to a Written Question.
Pilots can also be reluctant to report any symptoms experienced for fear of exposing themselves to a medical that could, ultimately, lead to their licence to fly being revoked. This is acknowledged by the Department for Transport, which notes in its FAQs on cabin air quality that a UK study is unlikely to be successful as,
“pilots … would be legally obliged to report any health impairments found ... to the CAA, who licenses them”.
A recent example of two British Airways pilots who were cited by the airline to be filing a higher than average number of contaminated air reports illustrates this point: one had his medical certificate withdrawn after TCP was found in his blood, while the second pilot died in his mid-40s of a brain tumour after repeated exposures which were in many cases reported, but clearly ignored. The British Airways head doctor, however, is quoted in the House of Lords Science and Technology Committee’s 1st Report of Session 2007-08, entitled Air Travel and Health: an Update, as saying that he had,
“no evidence to suggest there is a serious medical problem”.
It is against this background of underreporting and an industry eager to avoid the commercial implications that the research by Cranfield was undertaken. In the House of Lords 2007 report, it was noted that as the original proposal was to sample “around 1,000 flights”, the size of sample offered only a,
“remote chance of capturing an event”,
if the incidence of contaminated air events is as low as the Government claim. In fact, the sample used was just 100 flights, yet the presence of TCP was detected in 23% of flights. Additionally, 38 reported fumes of which the majority were described as oil or oily-type smells. A mandatory occurrence report, or defect report, was not triggered on one single flight despite this being a requirement under the European directive and regulation. Clearly, the Government’s accepted estimate of the frequency of fume events is flawed and, despite government denials, this problem is being seriously underreported. Indeed, despite censuring the Government while in opposition for their dithering on air cabin quality, with secret studies behind closed doors, putting air crews and passengers at risk, when in office, the Secretary of State for Transport, Theresa Villiers, appears to have done an about-face. Ms Villiers’ interpretation of the Cranfield report was that,
“there was no evidence of pollutants occurring in cabin air at levels exceeding available health and safety standards and guidelines”.—[Official Report, 10/5/11; col. WS37.]
I was told in 2005 that there are no safe levels set for exposure to the mixture of substances from heated synthetic oils or for the organophosphate TCP. Peer reviewers for the Cranfield study used descriptors such as “very serious deficiency”, “very varying quality”, and “serious weaknesses in sampling”. Interestingly, earlier research by the same establishment on behalf of the Government concluded that because,
“current risk assessment practices are largely based on evaluating the toxicity of single chemicals at high doses”,
and because humans are exposed to a mixture of chemicals on a daily basis,
“there could be many uncertainties in the hazard assessment”,
particularly related to low-level exposures. It would appear that we are making the science fit the policy, not the policy fit the science.
As long ago as 1997 I used the term “intellectual corruption” in a speech in your Lordships’ House on the subject of organophosphates. I was not in the least surprised to learn that the second and final Department for Transport-sponsored air-monitoring swab-sampling study by the Institute of Occupational Medicine, in Edinburgh, recently found TCP in aircraft at low levels, with estimated airborne concentrations of TOCP found to be very low.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I apologise for interrupting the noble Countess, but if she could move one pace to her left, we could hear a little better what she is saying.
The Countess of Mar
I have a chest problem caused by organophosphates.
The Department for Transport publicly states that,
“it would be proper for DfT to be alerted of any findings out of the ordinary. Should that happen the DfT will consider what action might be appropriate to ensure that people can continue to fly without risk to their health”.
However, I must remind noble Lords that, as with the Cranfield study, no fume events were reported, and yet TCP at higher levels than TCP found elsewhere was detected, indicating that the substance originated from the aircraft. Of great concern is that the levels of the neurotoxic parts of the TCP stated to be in the oil are a direct contradiction of what Mobil advised in 2000. While ExxonMobil, formerly Mobil, the manufacturer of the oil, stated at the Australian Senate inquiry into this issue that the levels of the most toxic part of the TCP were over 600,000 times higher than the TOCP part, this Department for Transport-sponsored study has stated that the difference is only three times higher. One might ask who would know better. Making science fit the policy provides a wonderful excuse for inertia.
TCP has clearly been found in all aircraft surveyed. Controversially, the Institute of Occupational Medicine study states that there are government-set exposure standards available for the neurotoxic parts of TCP, but this is not the case. TCP as a whole and the most toxic parts do not have established exposure standards and, as we know, there are no exposure limits set for the mixture of ingredients in the aircraft environment. How can the researchers compare the enclosed environment of an airline cockpit with a normal office environment?
As well as organophosphates, there is a chemical known to be in the oil as an antioxidant at 1%, N-phenyl-alpha-naphthylamine, which is quite a mouthful, or PAN, which is much easier. It has an acknowledged contaminant as a by-product, beta-naphthylamine, or BNA. This is a prohibited schedule 1 category 1 carcinogen that has long been known to cause human bladder cancer. While oil certification standards used to say that suspected human carcinogens are prohibited in the oil, here we have a known human carcinogen in the oil as a contaminant totally ignored. The levels might be low, but repeatedly exposing people to human carcinogens is not acceptable. The new certification standards have removed this prohibition and simply say that all the regulations must be met. The other phrase that has been removed by the Civil Aviation Authority stated that,
“the lubricating oil shall have no adverse effect on the health of personnel when used for its intended purpose”.
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, I remind the House that it has resolved in favour of shorter speeches and that the Companion recommends that Second Reading speeches be no longer than 15 minutes.
The Countess of Mar
My Lords, I am aware of that. I apologise to the House. I will now sit down.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
The noble Countess reminded me of the time when I served on the first Select Committee that looked at air travel and health. Many of the concerns that she has voiced again this afternoon were before us in that committee. Our main concern was deep vein thrombosis, which we had a lot of very interesting evidence about. I hope she will forgive me if I do not follow her speech, but I will certainly read it with much interest.
I would like to say how grateful I am, and I am sure other noble Lords are too, for the very careful briefing we had before this debate from my noble friend Lord Attlee and his officials. They gave us a wealth of detailed information and a very good start on how we might debate this Bill.
Like others, I give a very general welcome to the main thrust of the Bill. My noble friend described its main features with great clarity and it is unnecessary for me to repeat that. However, I shall make one preliminary point before I turn to the Bill itself. It concerns the consolidation of legislation. I have been very critical over the years of the failure of successive Governments to embark on the consolidation of legislation, particularly legislation that is by reference to large numbers of prior Acts. Paragraph 28 of the Explanatory Notes makes the point very clearly:
“The Bill makes changes to a number of existing Acts, most notably the Aviation Security Act 1982 … Civil Aviation Act 1982 … Airports Act 1986, Transport Act 2000 … and the Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008”.
All those Acts are being amended by this Bill. My noble friend will remember that at one of his briefings I asked why the opportunity was not taken to consolidate all this into a single piece of legislation and he agreed to look into that.
At the same time, I consulted our very excellent Library researchers, who, in their turn, consulted parliamentary counsel. They supplied me with a very full response with which, of course, I will not weary the House this afternoon—except for one brief paragraph:
“The question of whether consolidation is appropriate tends to be considered at two different stages. The first”—
that is the one with which I am concerned here—
“is when a Bill is being drafted. If the changes proposed to be made by a Bill are sufficiently extensive, rewriting the existing legislation with those changes may be appropriate”.
I was arguing with my noble friend that this was in fact precisely such a case. Parliamentary counsel went on to set out the reasons why, in his view, this Bill was not considered to warrant rewriting into existence a new, single Act. He made a fairly strong case, and I do not propose to pursue that, but I will make two general points.
Where there is complex, detailed, technical legislation, the practitioners who deal with this, and their lawyers, are thoroughly familiar with the legislation and all the terms, and can therefore read the new Bill and its amendments with full understanding straight away. For parliamentarians, however—I suspect that most of us do not begin to share that expertise—it is a very different process. Either we have to spend a great deal of time on researching the thing and getting all the earlier legislation, looking it all up and deciding how the Bill will impact it, or, as I suspect most of us do because we do not have that time, we rely on those who brief us. They are interested parties. They may not give us a fully objective view of what is happening. It therefore seems to me to be right that when a new Bill is being drafted and there might be a case for consolidation, that should be considered.
The second thing is the device known as the Keeling schedule. If you have an existing clause that is being substantially amended by a whole series of amendments, which may run to several pages of the Bill, it is extremely helpful if there can be a Keeling schedule—a schedule at the back of the Bill which illustrates what the Bill will look like with the amendments all incorporated. I hope that Governments will be ready to consider this. I have come fairly new to this legislation, and I confess to my noble friend and to the House that I in no way consider myself an expert in it. It would be a good deal easier if one could have either a consolidated Bill or a Keeling schedule. I hope that the House will forgive me for deviating from the general tenor of the debate to make that point.
In the rest of my remarks I will touch on three issues. There has already been mention of Clause 84, about the environmental effects of civil aviation. I declare an interest: I am a resident of Vauxhall. We are directly under the main westbound flight path into Heathrow and very conscious of not only the noise but the atmospheric pollution. My noble friend Lord Attlee supplied a very helpful note on air quality, pointing out all the existing legislation, both domestic Acts and regulations, and EU directives, in which all these things are firmly regulated. It was a long list; again, I will not weary the House. At the end of his note to me, my noble friend said:
“Clause 84 of the Civil Aviation Bill has been designed to require the CAA to publish such environmental information as it considers appropriate to draw passengers and freight owners into the Government’s wider efforts to address the environmental impact of aviation, and to raise awareness of the environmental effects of civil aviation in the UK and measures taken to mitigate its adverse effects”.
I am afraid that I do not understand what that means. I do not know what its effect is to be. One thing is perfectly clear: it is not intended that the CAA should become yet another environmental regulator. There are plenty of regulators of different sorts there already. I hope that my noble friend may be able to give us some explanation.
My second point concerns the duties imposed in the Bill on the CAA. It is, of course, the main economic regulator. Unlike other regulators, however, there appears to be no explicit requirement that it should act efficiently. There is no efficiency or proportionality objective in this. I have to ask my noble friend, “Why not?”. Every other regulator—all the other regulators—have requirements to act efficiently and proportionately. Why not the CAA? It seems to me that this might be the subject of not only an amendment but, as the noble Lord, Lord Davies, said, audit by the National Audit Office. Why not? The Government’s argument as I have understood it and as it was advanced in the other place is to say, “Well, this is not a government body. It is not like a government department”. But it is a statutory regulator and it is entirely appropriate that its efficiency should be audited by the National Audit Office. I get the impression, which others have had, that over the years the Department for Transport has not put efficiency of the CAA at a very high level. It has had a low priority. The Bill seems to be an opportunity to put it right.
My third point is rather more technical; for that reason, I have given my noble friend notice of it. It concerns the risk to the financing of the considerable airport investment by the BAA. This of course refers specifically to Heathrow, and I will take a few moments to explain. Heathrow is the largest private infrastructure investor in Europe. It invests over £100 million a month in capital projects. It supports thousands of jobs. Heathrow accepts the Government’s intention—this is important—that critical assets should be safeguarded by ring-fencing. Noble Lords may recollect the case of a water authority owned by Enron, but where the assets were ring-fenced in this country so that the bankruptcy of Enron made no difference at all; that is what it is aimed at. Heathrow accepts that that is entirely appropriate, so it is not concerned with that. What it has concerns with are specific aspects of the ring-fence, which the Government’s policy states could be derogated from in practice and would now be subject to appeal, as the noble Lord, Lord Davies, said, perhaps by airlines or by the CAA itself. BAA is having to raise very large sums of money on the markets. Any uncertainty of that kind would immediately imperil its fundraising operations. I questioned its representatives on this when I met them, and they were really very clear. They said, “This is a very important issue indeed for us. We have been promised that there can be derogation but, at the same time, there is no exemption from the appeal process”. To quote the note which they gave me:
“BAA’s position is straightforward: the possibility of appeal by an airline in relation to BAA’s debt arrangements would have an extremely negative market impact. It would be likely to hamper our ability to raise finance, possibly over a long period. This, in turn, would restrict our ability to invest. Since our capital projects are amongst the largest in Europe and create many thousands of jobs, this would be a very unfortunate outcome at a sensitive time for the economy”.
They have been promised derogation. What they must have is an exemption from any right of appeal. That could very properly be incorporated into this Bill. None of this, of course, is contrary to the main thrust of the Bill which, as I said at the beginning, I warmly support.
Lord Hunt of Chesterton
My Lords, this Bill provides a modernising regulatory framework for civil aviation in the UK. However, because of the UK’s international leadership, this impacts across the world. A modern framework is necessary for a world-class aviation industry, including aviation services, and for taking a leading role in ensuring global safety and minimising any adverse environmental impact. I declare an interest as a former chief executive of the Met Office, which still receives funds from the Civil Aviation Authority, and I am grateful to the Met Office for providing me with some up-to-date information. I am also a director of an environmental consulting company that works for aviation in other places. I also provided evidence on behalf of BALPA in the 1970s, so I have worked on both sides of the fence.
This Bill is based on the strategic review of the CAA by Sir Joseph Pilling in 2008 for the previous Government and, as the Minister explained, on other recent studies. Aviation is a great technical achievement of engineering and meteorology, and increasingly environmental science. As a boy in 1953, I flew in a Comet 1 a week before the first one crashed. This is something I learnt about when I was a student at Cambridge, where I looked at extraordinary movies of the Comet 1 fuselage being pummelled by forces until it cracked. As a result, I have a sober view of these matters. Since then, aircraft have become safer and less dangerous than any form of surface transport. At the same time, aircraft have become more technologically advanced, with less fuel per passenger mile, and with better air traffic control. The new planes for the next generation—which were discussed earlier—are now being considered by Airbus. As far as I can see, they will look something like the wing fuselage designs familiar to noble Lords who used to read the Eagle in the 1950s, and familiar to Dan Dare. They should also be quieter.
The development of aircraft and engine design has reflected the increase in demand for smaller environmental impact. Noise has certainly reduced, as anybody living in London knows. In the 1990s, however, a major engine manufacturer asked at the Royal Society why engine design should take into account emissions of gaseous pollutants. That was then and here we are now with huge changes in policy and design. The new Rolls-Royce engines are as good as any in the world; it is a world leader. The Bill needs to strengthen and keep pressure on industry, as my noble friend Lord Davies mentioned in his opening remarks.
The operation of aircraft also depends greatly on accurate weather forecasts. Forecasts help with the safety and economic operation of aeroplanes. The Met Office reckons that the level of error in the estimation of a flight from Los Angeles to London is now 62 seconds, if the issues are solely to do with the meteorology. However, the real problems with aeroplanes are to do with airports, and indeed whether the aeroplanes are in the right place at the right time.
UK airlines have an excellent record of safety, greatly helped by these forecasts, both before take-off and during flight. It is an important responsibility of the CAA to fund the services of the Met Office and to ensure that it and other organisations remain at the highest technical level. For example, new methods of detecting lightning are now available for civilian forecasts. These were formerly secret. Indeed, it was lightning in the Atlantic which brought down the Air France Airbus a couple of years ago. These are still very important issues.
Noble Lords might not know that an aircraft flight above 24,000 feet receives data and forecasts from the UK and the US weather services. The World Area Forecast System provides this information for all airlines in all countries. Independent observers note that the UK forecasts are improving faster than any others. Payments to the Met Office of £30 million per year come from Eurocontrol, to which the CAA contributes.
As my noble friend Lord Davies and the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, reminded us, local weather is very important, and this is the responsibility of local weather services. One of the most difficult problems remains forecasting and advising aircraft in situations of extreme local weather, where there are special local factors. The Met Office and European weather services provided very valuable information about the effects of the ash from the Icelandic volcano, which required a new level of collaboration between the Government, the aircraft industry and environmental services. Indeed, there was a special meeting of the European Parliament to discuss this. This is an example of where science and engineering can provide services around the world.
My question to the Minister is whether it is a role of the CAA to encourage this important area of UK business. I have made the point over and over again that most chief executives of most technical agencies in the UK have no explicit responsibility to help UK industry. Would you believe it? That is the position. Other countries do not have that restriction, as I know from my experience. It was not on my job list at all. I sometimes used to ask about that. The UK does not use its agencies to help its very considerable possibilities for export, and I hope that might be considered in the Bill. Clause 84 refers to the environment of airports, and as the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, said, this is associated with aircraft pollution, noise and surface transport which provide most of the pollutant gases near Heathrow. If you look at a map of London pollution there is a great blob at Heathrow associated with surface transportation traffic.
This is of course being studied intensively. The UK has developed methods, which improve on the standard methods of the United States, for studying aircraft pollution at take-off and landing, as was announced by a Minister in 2007. There is much more that could be done. In Japan the airports are using electricity from solar collectors on their large airport roofs. There are no large solar collectors on London airport roofs. There are enormous possibilities here. The electricity from these solar collectors in Japan goes straight to the aircraft, so you do not have aircraft running their engines, producing pollution and so on. This is the kind of development that the CAA could be pushing.
The climate impact of aviation is serious and growing, but it is still less than shipping. The CAA should have a strong role in pushing the industry in the right direction, and discussing taxation regimes to ensure that aircraft operations have reduced emissions. One of these is to go more slowly, and the other is to use more technology, especially technology on the ground. The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, noted that the CAA will be taking responsibility for the health of passengers, especially regarding air flow. I wonder whether the CAA will also take responsibility in taking an interest in all passengers on aeroplanes. I am informed that the air flow to first class and business passengers is considerably greater than to those in economy class. Some noble Lords travel in economy class and will therefore be very interested in ensuring that there is an equitable distribution of air flow in aeroplanes. It is palpable that it is not equitable at the moment, and it is well known in the industry. Indeed, I am going to Rio tomorrow economy class because it has less environmental impact. Not everybody goes to Rio in economy class, and I do it out of environmental principle.
The overall issue for the CAA, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, said, is not just efficiency, which is important, but also effectiveness and excellence, and in promoting to other countries what we do well. That aspect is missing from the Bill, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, implied.
The question, then, is not just about the publication and dissemination of data but about the responsibility for action and forward planning. The CAA has no chief scientist or chief engineer. The Department for Transport has a chief scientist but that person’s impact on this whole issue is not particularly obvious. The result is that the CAA must rely on information from other agencies such as the Met Office, the Department of Health, Defra, universities, NERC and so on. However, the pioneer role of the CAA should be promoted in the Bill.
Earl Cathcart
My Lords, I am very glad to lend my support to almost all aspects of this important Bill. However, I have one reservation, which concerns an area that has been touched on already by noble Lords: the Bill does not contain any form of environmental duty for the CAA.
The Bill seems to have started life as a result of a 2006 recommendation from the Transport Committee in the other place, which called for a strategic review of the CAA. The Government of the day agreed to take forward that recommendation and appointed Sir Joseph Pilling to carry out that strategic review, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said. The Pilling report, published in 2007, called for a new statutory framework for the CAA to make it clear that,
“the CAA’s responsibility is to safeguard the general public interest, which is broader than the aviation community”.
He recommended that the CAA should have,
“a general statutory duty in relation to the environment”,
describing this as a “notable gap” in the CAA’s statutory framework.
Unfortunately, the Bill, as presently drafted, still has this notable gap because it does not contain a general environmental duty for the CAA. This creates the risk that the CAA will, in future, focus almost exclusively on the interests of passengers and the aviation community, which on occasion may be at the expense of the general public interest and the environment. It is quite right that the interests of passengers should be the CAA’s primary focus but they should not be its only focus. A balance must be struck and the CAA needs a statutory framework that allows it flexibility to strike the right balance. This means a statutory framework that allows it to take account of the impact of airport operations on the environment and local communities.
Shortly after publication of the Pilling report, the Government appointed Professor Martin Cave to chair an expert panel to advise on how best to modernise the way in which the UK’s largest airports were economically regulated by the CAA. Significantly, it was Professor Cave who proposed that the CAA’s primary duty, in its role as economic regulator, should be towards the interests of passengers. Equally significantly, he also proposed a supplementary environmental duty for the CAA to,
“have regard to the effect on the environment and on local communities of activities connected with the provision of airport services”.
I know that my right honourable friend in the other place, the Secretary of State for Transport, has said that she does not consider it necessary for the CAA to have an environmental duty. However, it is significant that the two independent experts who studied this matter in detail both considered it right and necessary to give the CAA a statutory environmental duty. In addition, the Transport Committee in the other place registered its concern, saying:
“Without giving the CAA a supplementary duty on the environment in relation to its economic regulation role, there is some risk that airports may be reluctant to invest in improving environmental performance”.
If the only objection to including an environmental duty is that it is not necessary, presumably it would do no harm to include it and thereby give some comfort to those who are concerned about the risks of a single-minded focus on passenger interests at the expense of environmental and local community considerations. I am encouraged that my right honourable friend in the other place, the Secretary of State, has said that she is open to persuasion on this point. I very much hope that, in Committee, a consensual way can be found to place some form of statutory environmental duty on the CAA. If so, we will have a much improved Bill.
Lord Clinton-Davis
I speak as a former Aviation Minister and European Union Commissioner for Transport and the Environment. Those experiences have some relevance to this debate.
It is absolutely right to emphasise the importance of aviation, as the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, did. The contribution of aviation to our economy is immense. The number of people that it employs—some 250,000 directly and another 200,000 indirectly—is impressive. However, in a recent poll, to which I alluded earlier, some 91% of BALPA members considered that the Government did not sufficiently support the industry. I hope that the noble Earl will comment on that, since what he said in reply to my intervention was wholly inadequate.
Safety standards need to be stressed whenever possible. Should this point not appear forcefully in the Bill? This issue undoubtedly affects the members of BALPA and will, like others, be raised in the meetings that the Minister foresees taking place in the near future.
New technologies and biofuels, about which the Minister said nothing, need further investment. The Minister’s opening speech was silent on this issue. Perhaps he will expound on it in winding up.
As many Members have said, particularly my noble friend Lord Hunt of Chesterton, safety is a vital component of an effective aviation strategy. Lip service alone will not suffice. It is simply unacceptable for financial pressures on operators to push safety standards downwards and the Government should say so at every available opportunity.
I turn to the question of fatigue. Too often, insufficient attention is paid to this issue. Jim McAuslan, the general secretary of BALPA, has said that its call to the Government remains that they must follow the principled stand taken by the previous Government and underwrite existing UK standards until Europe can come up with something better. I ask the noble Earl whether the Government agree with that proposition. If so, what is being done?
The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, stressed the importance of environmental duties. I entirely agree with his comments. It is essential—whatever the Government may say about this—
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I hope that the noble Lord will give way. In defence of my noble friend, the last speech was made by the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart; the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare is not here.
Lord Clinton-Davis
I am sorry—I did not know. It is entirely my fault.
No issue affecting aviation can be considered without addressing the issue of Britain’s runways. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, does not entirely agree with that, but he is quite wrong in not stressing the importance of that issue. It is highly significant. It is a case of Hamlet without the prince, and it is entirely ignored in this Bill. The issue of where Britain’s airport is to be located is essential, and I make no apology for referring to it. No legislation affecting aviation should be considered without addressing that issue. Of course, I differ with my own party concerning this issue, but they will all come round eventually. My own party and the Government will see the advantage of making Heathrow a vital part of our economy in ways that it is not at the moment. Of course, the Government excuse their silence by referring to the inquiry which it has set up—and they are right to do that. However, equally, there is no alternative to expanding Heathrow.
Prevarication in action inevitably impedes progress and, moreover, it is immensely costly. In my view there can only be one candidate: an improved Heathrow. Its advantages are manifest. First and foremost, the waiting time for the start of operations would be far less if Heathrow were chosen. Then, further airport and aircraft development, both of which will inevitably occur, will enable Heathrow to derive huge advantages from these issues. Most significantly, there is no viable alternative within a reasonable time span. The Government, plainly, are playing for time in the hope that something—anything—will turn up. That is not a policy but the abandonment of foresight. The clear fact is that Heathrow exists. Undoubtedly there are some—even major—disadvantages, but any alternative regime will also have those. There must be, and can be, the possibility of overcoming them. Above all, decisive action and a powerful lead from the Government are needed, and sadly, at the moment, both are lacking.
Lord Rogan
My Lords, the Bill has been widely welcomed during its progress and I, too, am in broad agreement with its principles. However, despite my fear being thought partisan, I would like to say a few words from a purely Northern Ireland perspective, although my remarks are also applicable, albeit to a lesser degree, to other UK regions.
Northern Ireland has many fine qualities which I am happy to wax lyrical about, but its geography brings with it the price of being the most peripheral region of the kingdom. Consequently, aviation—especially anything which touches upon access to Heathrow—is of particular interest to Ulster’s travellers, even more so now, in the aftermath of BA’s takeover of BMI, which has raised many questions about the long-term future of BMI’s current Heathrow slots, presently operating from George Best Belfast City Airport. It is difficult to underestimate how important those slots at Heathrow are for Northern Ireland, particularly for the business community and the tourist industry, attracting visitors from overseas with connections at the Heathrow hub.
While much of the debate about Heathrow quite rightly centres around its capacity and ability to compete in the modern world with other major continental airports, our issue in Northern Ireland is more fundamental —to ensure that Heathrow is accessible in the first place. There is no other practical way to reach Heathrow without direct flights from Belfast. There is no direct motorway link, direct rail link, or underground. Nor is it practical to connect to Heathrow, complete with baggage, from a lot of London’s other airports.
The more difficult it is for Northern Ireland to access Heathrow, the more difficult it is for business people to build that outward-looking, export-driven economy which Northern Ireland needs in order to continue developing. The arguments and evidence for the economic development benefits associated with air links are well known, but access to Heathrow is a two-edged sword for Northern Ireland. If we lose those links, our ability to plug into the global business community is much diminished, but similarly, it will also prove more difficult for inbound traffic, particularly inward investors, to register the Province as a serious investment location if there are no direct connections into the UK’s national hub airport.
While I appreciate that it may be beyond the remit of the Civil Aviation Bill to guarantee slots at any given airport, there should be some cognisance of regional policy within the general aviation strategy. Failure to do so will be to the detriment of the regions in the short and medium term, and will overcentralise economic activity around key airports, especially in the south-east of England, to an extent which may not be sustainable in the long term.
Lord Davies of Stamford
My Lords, I thoroughly agree with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Rogan. When I was Shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and therefore about twice a month a regular customer of Belfast City Airport, I realised how enormously important for the economic self-confidence of the Province is that link to Heathrow and, through it, to international networks. I also very much agree with my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis, who spoke of course, on the basis of very considerable personal experience in having held two immensely important positions in civil aviation. I will follow very much the logic of what he said.
Of course, as always, I listened with great attention to the Minister. He started off by saying something that we would all agree with, which is that aviation is “vital to our economy”—I think I noted down his remarks correctly. To my amazement, he did not say anything at all about the fact that the aviation industry is in fact facing a major competitive threat at the present time and is extremely worried about the future. You might hope that a Government of the day would take that on board and do something about it. Far from it, unfortunately. That is a very troubling situation.
Most of us were brought up thinking complacently—perhaps we always were very complacent about this—that Heathrow was the biggest airport in Europe and so we were quite safe as we had the centre of at least the European aviation industry right here in our country. That is no longer true and is becoming less true all the time. Already two of Heathrow’s rivals, Roissy Charles de Gaulle and Frankfurt, have more aircraft movements than Heathrow. By the end of this decade, which is only eight years away, they will almost certainly have more passengers, as will Schiphol, so Heathrow will be number four and going down.
Heathrow is enormously important and I make no apology for focusing on it. I fear that the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, was completely wrong to say that it is all right because although there is not enough capacity at Heathrow there is enough capacity at Birmingham, Luton or somewhere else. People who want to come to London want to get there as quickly as possible. That is particularly important in the business world. Frankly, the noble Lord did not focus at all on the enormously important economics of the hub and spoke system—what an economist would call the networking effects, which are so important in the aviation industry. If Heathrow is not allowed to become a hub, somewhere else will and it will not be Luton or Birmingham. It will be Schiphol, Paris or Frankfurt. I illustrate that by means of a brief personal anecdote.
In February I was lucky enough to be part of a parliamentary delegation to Mexico. The IPU was rightly concerned to save taxpayer funds and got the best deal that it could, which involved us flying via Schiphol. We went to Schiphol and changed, which meant that we flew 300 kilometres in the wrong direction and 300 kilometres back over the United Kingdom again. That is 600 kilometres more than we needed to fly. We took off twice rather than once. As we all know, most carbon emissions occur on take-off and early altitude gains. I should think that we emitted twice the carbon that we would have done had we been able to fly directly from Heathrow to Mexico City. I witnessed some colleagues taking advantage of Schiphol Airport’s fine duty-free shopping facilities. That, again, is very good news for the economy of Schiphol and of the Netherlands but very bad news for this country. I say to the Government and to the Liberal Party—they should be aware of that and focus on it but they simply are not doing so.
The Bill sets out the obligations of the Secretary of State. I am, of course, totally in favour of the Bill, which was conceived by the previous Labour Government, as has already been pointed out. Clause 2 is headed: “Secretary of State’s general duty”. Clause 2(1) states:
“The Secretary of State must carry out the functions listed in subsection (3) in a manner which the Secretary of State considers will further the interests of users of air transport services regarding the range, availability, continuity, cost and quality of airport operation services”.
The Secretary of State is doing nothing of the kind at present, nor did her predecessor. That is precisely why we have the current problem and why it is cheaper to fly to Mexico City via Schiphol than it is to take off directly from Heathrow—that is, taking off from Heathrow to Schiphol, and then flying from Schiphol to Mexico. Why is that the case? It is because there are not enough slots at Heathrow. Therefore, airlines that want to put on more flights cannot run them from Heathrow. They have to reserve the slots at Heathrow for the high-margin flights going to destinations such as New York, Chicago and Washington DC, where there are lots of first class and club class passengers. The other aircraft with a greater proportion of discounted passengers have to go elsewhere, and so they go to Schiphol, Roissy or Frankfurt. That is the simple logic and the Government must face up to that fact.
The key issue is not just the importance of the aviation business as regards employment. As has been said, it generates nearly half a million jobs in this country. However, it is important for two other reasons as well. First, it is not the only factor or the leading factor but is certainly a factor in location of business decisions. If you decide that you want to locate an international headquarters in a particular city, one of the things that you undoubtedly take into account is the air communications. If you put your office in London and you have to go via Birmingham to get there, that is a very major disincentive to coming to London at all. The aviation business is very important as regards business traffic. It is also important as regards tourism. If you ask the Government whether they care about tourism, they will say, “Of course, we care very much about tourism. It is a very important industry”. However, in practice, they are handicapping tourism over and over again. We have the problem that we are not part of the Schengen visa system so people coming to this country as part of a European tour—the bulk of private tourists from outside the EU coming to the EU come on organised tours—often will not take the trouble, time or additional cost involved in purchasing a British visa. That is a big handicap. We now have the longest delays at our border controls of anywhere in Europe as a result of mismanagement by this Government. That is also a handicap. If we now have shortages of airline slots and people are diverted to Birmingham—I again take the example put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw—that will also be a considerable deterrent to tourism. Therefore, it is no use the Government saying that they care about tourism if their policies have the effect of weakening British tourism’s competitiveness worldwide. That is exactly the situation.
Lord Trefgarne
Everything the noble Lord is saying is directed towards more operations, more slots and more flights from Heathrow. What was the policy of the Government, of whom he was a distinguished member, between 1997 and 2010?
Lord Davies of Stamford
Our policy was to expand Heathrow and build a third runway. That was the policy which I supported then, which I support now and which I trust my party will support again at the next election. It is the only policy that seems to make any sense. As regards the third runway that we were planning to build—the BAA third runway—I read an interesting proposal the other day which I recommend to the noble Lord, who knows a lot about this subject. It was produced by the Institute of Directors. Noble Lords may be surprised to hear a member of the Labour Party referring to the Institute of Directors but I thought that it came up with an interesting proposal for a third runway to be built within the existing perimeter of the airport to the south, which would be something like 2,600 metres in length and would greatly improve the situation. The scheme has been well documented and the noble Lord may like to look at it. However it is done it is clear that all the airlines and BAA are of one mind on this—the solution is the one that, had we won the previous election, we would have implemented, I am proud to say.
Of course, the whole of this is against the background of the present Government’s neglect of infrastructure generally. We have had the postponement of the high-speed rail project.
Lord Bradshaw
As regards neglect of the infrastructure, under the Labour Government nine miles of railway were electrified. Under this Government, I think that 833 miles will be electrified. I also draw attention to the fact that a lot of money is being spent on Manchester and Birmingham Airports and a great deal of investment is going into Gatwick.
Lord Davies of Stamford
I commend all that but there is no question that this neglect applies to a number of vital major projects. One of them is the third runway for Heathrow and another is the high-speed rail project, which is unaccountably delayed. Perhaps it has been pushed off sine die; I do not know. I do not think that we shall ever see it again under this Government, although I hope that we do, of course.
Another such issue is nuclear power. I have asked about this in the House. We are 10 years away from the date when all the AGRs have to be decommissioned but the Government have not succeeded in getting one new project launched. It takes a minimum of eight to 10 years to build a new nuclear power station. These are major areas of neglect. I have to say to the party opposite that any Government who govern with two eyes focused simply on the next morning’s headlines or opinion polls and do not think about the long-term interests of the country are betraying the public interest and will be seen in historical retrospect as a historical failure.
I have to say another thing that the Government will not like, which is that a recession is rather a good time to bring forward investment in social overhead capital—in infrastructure—because factor costs are lower during a recession. It is also rather a good idea to create some demand and jobs during a recession because—I know that the Government do not want to hear this—the fact is that austerity alone will not relaunch growth. I would have hoped that all these important infrastructure projects would have been brought forward, which they would have been by an imaginative Government genuinely concerned with the long term.
I hope that my strictures will have some effect. I am sure that the Minister will not say now that he agrees with my criticisms of the Government but I hope that the Government will think very carefully about these matters and come forward with a policy on all of them which is a little bit more worthy of the enormously important role which they have in looking after the interests of the country during their mandate of office.
Lord Patten
My Lords, I am quite fearful of the effects of delaying what are, admittedly, politically and environmentally difficult decisions about airport capacity—not just for this year or next, but over the next several hard years for the United Kingdom’s economy and its employment. It may turn out to be seven quite lean years or more for the people and economy of the whole of western Europe. Against such a background, even the signals that we send out to potential investors—well in advance of actually being able to do anything on the ground to improve airport capacity—may well be critical, because they know good news is coming, albeit a bit delayed.
That said as background to my points, and declaring my business interests, I seek assurances that nothing in this Bill as drafted can get in the way of urgently needed airport capacity improvements. There may be some doubt about this. However, in general and overall, I welcome the sensible provisions that the Bill contains, following obviously careful ministerial consideration of the excellent and far-sighted recommendations of that distinguished public servant, Sir Joseph Pilling. It is good, therefore, to see that improvements have already been made to the way that the CAA works, even ahead of this legislation. In particular, there is the critically important separation of powers between chairman and chief executive. Its governance structures certainly needed modernisation and updating to reach reasonable modern standards.
The CAA should certainly be in a position, for example, to appoint its own senior executive directors and go on to fix their pay, easing the pressure on Ministers, who should not be involved in what are essentially operational matters. However, for a thoroughly modern public corporation, a board as large as proposed in this Bill—16—might turn out to be rather a lot for useful discussion. At the other end of the size spectrum, fixing pay, which is in the Bill, may need slightly wider scrutiny than that of the chairman and just one other non-executive director. That balance probably better demands two independent directors at least, for the avoidance of doubt. I also hope that the CAA, as it rolls forward, will be very leery—I never know how to spell that, but doubtless the Hansard account of my speech will get it right—of the advice of remuneration consultants. They often seem to be as unreliable and inflationary in their recommendations for increases in executive pay as rating agencies once were in their business recommendations.
We must see this Bill not in isolation, but in relation to the two aviation documents that the Government are likely to launch in the not too distant future; I hear rumours of July. First, there is their consultation on a sustainable airport and aviation framework, which is very important. Secondly, they are consulting on options for maintaining airport hubs in the United Kingdom. My noble friend Lord Bradshaw talked about their importance. I hope that I can go on calling him my noble friend, despite what is going on at the other end of the Palace of Westminster as I speak, and that we do not all need counselling as we go forward. What he said was interesting, and it is precisely why I seek assurances that none of the market power competition provisions in this Bill relating to specified dominant areas and dominant airports could be used in as yet unforeseen ways to inhibit the best choice being made as quickly as possible for the vital London airport expansion. These range from a third runway at Heathrow, as just put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, to fantasy schemes on estuarine islands and elsewhere.
To my mind, and I would like to test this against the provisions of the Bill, the best current option would be to bring into use the second Gatwick runway, as will be permitted from 2019. The two runways at Gatwick could then be linked to the present two runways at Heathrow by a cut-and-cover tunnel and rapid transport rail system. I know that this is a suspiciously round number, but I am assured that at current costs this could be done for about £5 billion. Shuttling between the two ends of what would be a unified hub, with two runways at Heathrow and two at Gatwick, could be done in 12 minutes or less. The payback for the Exchequer for this scheme, which of course is vital in our constrained economy, could be met by a £10 take-off or landing charge to clear the cost in 20 years or less. Once it was built, this would undoubtedly become known as the Gatrow Express in one direction and the Heathwick Express in the other.
That is my example and I simply ask this: suppose the Government decide that this—or any other scheme—is what they want to do. Does anything in this Bill prevent it being driven through if the scheme turns out to require dominance by one body, as defined in this Bill? Therefore, could the anticompetitive measures, which otherwise may be very welcome, be used to inhibit such development in the national economic and environmental interest? If the Bill was enacted in its present form, could it be used to slow down and prevent such development purely on competition grounds?
I say to the Minister that this is not some probing Committee-stage point, but one of general overarching principle. Have those drafting the Bill considered the possibility of future-proofing its provisions against the unlikely; and the difficulties of delays caused by the unlikely happening, as tiresomely it sometimes does? In a different way, I reflect what my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding—not presently in his place—said. He pointed out the uncertainty facing BAA in Heathrow in its necessary capital-raising grants, which we all support for infrastructure reasons. However, uncertainty would also be damaging if those who wish to come and develop using private sector money are inhibited from so doing. After all, look at the time it takes to bring about the simplest changes in the air transport system.
Take the world’s biggest airport, Atlanta, in space-rich Georgia. There are no problems there with overflying or inhibitions about developing much cherished green-belt land and the rest. The most recent proposal there was not to delay building a controversial extra runway, and not expansion inhibited by any competition regulations, but simply to build a much needed new international terminal in what is the world’s busiest airport. It has taken 16 years even in that relatively regulation-free, environmentally free and uninhibited atmosphere. We do not have 16 years in the UK. Wherever expansion happens, it will have to be in the London area. We have in aviation terms nothing like 16 years unless we continue to see our competitive advantage bleeding away. The Government need maximum room for manoeuvre. They should not be shackled in any way by their own legislation and I want to make absolutely certain that one potential set of shackles is not hidden in the middle of this Bill.
Lord Soley
Like other speakers, I welcome the general thrust of this Bill. I am sure that we shall make some improvements in Committee. I would like to see it in the context of a proper aviation policy, which I fear we do not have at the moment. I am rather nervous about some of the papers that might come out from the Government, although the Prime Minister today, in answer to Zac Goldsmith, the MP for Richmond Park, declined to give a commitment that, if re-elected, the Government would not build a third runway. This argument is moving and there are growing numbers of people who recognise that the only realistic possibility is the expansion of Heathrow. It is something that I have been saying for many years, but I will not spend a great deal of time on it now because the House and other people have heard my views on many occasions. I simply reiterate that at a time of economic recession, a third runway is estimated to add some £8 billion to the British economy, and all the investment is totally private sector. The idea of not doing it is crazy. If we do not do it soon, we will continue to lose out. A number of Members around this House have made that point.
I want to make an additional point—and this is where it would be good if the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, could talk to the noble Lord, Lord Rogan. I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, understands the concept of a hub airport. That is curious because he seems to love trains, and I presume that he understands the concept of what is in effect a hub railway station. People go to the big railway stations in big cities to interchange to get to other places.
Perhaps I may give the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, an obvious example, and I would like him to think it through, because the opponents are getting in the way of the advantages that would accrue to us if we took the necessary decisions. I could give him many examples similar to that of the Japanese businessman who wishes to invest in Europe and has investment meetings here. He wants to fly on to his factory in Liverpool and can do that by going to London, getting a train across to King’s Cross, getting the train to Luton, and then flying to Liverpool. Or he could go to Euston and get the train all the way to Liverpool. Alternatively, he can fly to Amsterdam, have his meeting there, decide his investment policies, and fly straight to Liverpool. That is true of dozens of regional airports around Britain. We are not just doing damage to London; we are doing damage to our regions and it is important to understand that.
I will not proceed further on that, other than to make the more general point that in aviation generally we still have the second largest and second most advanced aerospace industry in the world. Although we will not retain that position much longer, for all the obvious reasons about emerging countries, we can retain the great advantage that we have, particularly in science and technology. We can do that only if we have a good civil aviation policy and a defence policy that goes with it to support the aviation industry. Everyone in the industry understands that, and that is why when I make speeches such as this I get so much support from across the whole industry. That is generally recognised by all, and I ask the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, to talk this through with people, understand the concept of the hub and why you cannot have more than one hub airport in one major area. You can have several hub airports in a large country, but not otherwise. That is important.
I wanted to mention investment in Heathrow and so on. Although the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, who has had to slip out for a while, has saved me some time, I want to reiterate this issue—which the noble Lord, Lord Patten, also touched on. There is a problem here. My understanding is that it would not require much tweaking of the Bill to give Heathrow the protection that it needs in terms of investment policies in infrastructure. We could look at that in Committee, because it is an important matter which we should flag up.
I want to refer to two other matters mentioned by another speaker. Clearly, we must give the CAA a duty of efficiency, and the National Audit Office is relevant in this context. The idea of the CAA not being answerable to the National Audit Office is, frankly, dumb. I believe that we were thinking of doing that some time ago when we were in government and considered introducing a similar Bill. That was the intention.
I want to say a quick word about the issue of airline holiday sales and the Air Travel Organisers Licensing scheme. My understanding from the CAA is that it believes that airline holiday sales should come under the new ATOL arrangements. It was drawn to my attention that the number of people whose holidays are protected by the ATOL scheme has reduced considerably, and today only around 50% of holidaymakers travel with full financial protection from ATOL. Those figures are from the CAA. We should all recognise and support its proposal.
Security issues, dealt with in Clauses 78 to 82, are very important. This is perhaps not the moment to discuss them in detail, although we may do so in Committee. I am slightly worried about the way that we are tackling this area. It is difficult to get right, although it may be that the Government have received advice from the security industry generally, including the security departments of government. However, we need to get this right. I remember the Minister saying at one time that her plan was to make Heathrow better, not bigger. When you look at the queues at Heathrow you realise that, whatever else she has done, she has not achieved that.
Part of the reason is that we have not tackled effectively the whole issue of immigration, passport clearance and so on. The recent sacking of the head of that department has produced a situation where there is almost a work to rule. I am not justifying that, but if you tell the workforce that they must obey the Immigration Rules to the letter, they will do that—and that is what they are doing. That may be good, bad or indifferent, but you cannot easily blame those staff without recognising that the Government, by saying what they said and doing what they did, have made the problem far worse. We have to rely to a considerable degree on the good sense and, above all, the training of these people. If you tell them that they cannot use that good sense and training and give them a set of rules which you tell them to obey to the letter—and if you tell them that they will lose their jobs if they do not follow the rules to the letter—then they will obviously do just that: follow the rules to the letter. That would account for the terrible queues at Heathrow, which have done immense damage. The airport’s position in the international airline stakes is bad enough.
My noble friend and colleague Lord Davies of Stamford said that Heathrow was now number four in terms of aircraft movements. It has slipped to number eight in terms of the destinations it serves. That is by far the most serious slippage for a major airport. To compound that with a lack of effective ground operations in terms of clearing the queues and so on is therefore a major failure.
Lord Davies of Stamford
Just to set the record straight, what I actually said was that Heathrow is currently third in Europe for aircraft movements—behind Roissy and Frankfurt—but that it will be fourth by 2020, behind Roissy, Frankfurt and Schiphol, both in terms of movements and passenger numbers.
Lord Soley
I accept that. I was simply making the point that in terms of destinations served, Heathrow has been way down for a long time, and it is slipping further.
On the issue of the environment, there are opportunities to get this right in Clause 84. I am interested in subsection (5), which gives the CAA a duty to fund certain research and so on, including on health—an issue which the noble Countess, Lady Mar, might be interested in. As for what the CAA can do, it seems perfectly possible to interpret subsection (5) as meaning that the CAA could do more to raise the profile of environmental research, and not necessarily by spending a great deal. It always struck me that in airports and aircraft generally there is a captive audience for the environmental message.
There is always room for improvement in what airports can do on ground operations. Five or six years ago, when I first spoke at the Airport Operators Association’s annual conference, there was a lack of willingness to acknowledge that airport operators ought to be aiming, as far as possible, to get zero emissions from ground operations. Now, all airports are trying to do that. There is no reason why, in Clause 84, we could not ask the CAA to look at things such as the effectiveness of airlines in introducing drop-in fuels—algae-based and other biological fuels that are now regularly being mixed with jet fuel by many airlines around the world—and modern aircraft design. That is because a lot of the noise problem comes not from engines but from air frames.
Incidentally, I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, to get off his hobby horse of railways and recognise the overall problem. I can tell him that, having lived under the flight path of Heathrow for something like 30 years, I would far rather do that than live next to the high-speed rail line in west London, where the trains run through at 100 miles an hour, less than 100 feet from people’s front and back doors, which goes on throughout the night—24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Although I recognise the noise problem, I would simply say that this is a problem for all transport systems. Rather than picking out aircraft, trains, cars, or whatever, the message is to look at a modern transport system and do it environmentally.
I have a couple of final points. The stacking issue is important, and several people have mentioned it. We will not stop stacking at Heathrow until we dramatically reduce the number of flights—in which case we may as well close the airport—or we expand the airport. The other problem, which is a much bigger problem for Europe, is the number of air traffic control centres in the European area. There were 50 such centres the last time I looked, compared with about 10 for the whole of the North American continent. Until we reduce that number we will not be able to fly in straight lines; we will have to fly in dog-legs across Europe. The Minister will know that. However, I am not sure that we will be able to get agreement on this issue given the number of jobs involved which will be defended by various countries at various times.
I have one final, brief point which the Minister might like to come back on at another time. I am puzzled about the situation whereby some airports owned by the Ministry of Defence also handle civilian flights. I am not sure what the CAA will be covering. Northolt is an obvious example. It has been increasing the number of civil flights, usually involving privately owned aircraft. I am not sure whether the Bill will cover the activities in a MoD-owned airport where there is a civilian operation as well. I welcome the Bill and look forward to dealing with some of it in Committee.
Viscount Simon
My Lords, when this Bill passed through the other place there was a great deal of agreement with relatively few areas of disagreement, which may well be the case here. Airports provide many jobs and are a convenient means of travel, as we have heard, be it for business or pleasure, but they also have some unwelcome impacts on local communities and the local environment. It is always a question of striking the right balance.
This Bill has many attributes but it also has a serious shortcoming in that it does not include any environmental duty for the CAA and, therefore, does not enable the CAA to strike a proper balance between what are sometimes competing interests with competing objectives. I understand that there are two levels for consideration: first, the general statutory framework for the CAA as a whole; and secondly, the specific statutory framework applicable to the CAA in its role as economic regulator for the UK’s largest airports. As those airports are subject to economic regulation, the Bill makes clear that the CAA should give priority to passengers’ interests. Environmental considerations will not even be of secondary importance because they are not mentioned in the Bill, other than some requirements relating to the publication of environmental information. This means that the CAA will not have the statutory authority to allow regulated airports to recover discretionary environmental expenditure through airport charges.
What does that mean in practice? Hatfield Forest, where I live, is adjacent to Stansted Airport and is a site of special scientific interest with a history going back nine centuries. It is managed by the National Trust and has many ancient trees, which are thought to suffer damage from the fumes emanating from aircraft. For many years the airport owner, BAA, has worked with the National Trust, funding research into the effect of air pollution on Hatfield Forest and providing monitoring equipment to check the levels of pollution. Some of this effort has related to a Section 106 obligation, but most has been discretionary expenditure that would be at risk if the CAA’s new remit made no reference to environmental considerations.
It is true that the regulatory remit that has applied to the CAA for the past 25 years, laid down by the Airports Act 1986, does not specifically include an environmental duty. However, this is so widely framed—some would say woolly—that it allowed the CAA flexibility to balance a range of competing objectives. In contrast, this Bill places a clear statutory duty on the CAA to put passengers’ interests first and foremost and the CAA will not have any statutory remit to take account of environmental factors even as a supplementary or secondary consideration. Noble Lords will be aware that some of the so-called low-cost airlines have a reputation for seeking to save every available penny. Stansted is dominated by such airlines. Indeed, a certain Irish airline accounts for more than 70% of Stansted’s passengers. That perhaps makes it easier to understand the concern that, if the CAA does not have any form of environmental remit, it risks being challenged in the High Court by an airline if it ever seeks to allow the airport to recover discretionary environmental expenditure. The Bill gives the CAA no means of defending such a challenge.
The argument has been made in the other place that it would distort the market if the CAA were to be given a supplementary environmental duty, because it would apply only to airports subject to regulation—currently Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted. However, the converse is also true. Non-regulated airports, such as Birmingham or Luton, would not need the CAA’s permission to increase airport charges by a few pence to improve their environmental performance. If the risk of distorting the market is the only objection, that risk could be avoided by giving the CAA a general economic duty applicable to all airports, not just those subject to economic regulation.
The noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, who is not in his place, comes from the same direction, and I will expand slightly on what he said. Every other comparable UK regulator has some form of statutory environmental duty. For example, the Rail Regulator has a duty,
“to have regard to the effect on the environment of activities connected with the provision of railway services … to contribute to the achievement of sustainable development”.
Ofwat has a duty,
“to have regard to any social or environmental guidance issued by the Secretary of State and Welsh Assembly … to the achievement of sustainable development”.
Ofgem has duties,
“to have regard to the effect on the environment of activities connected with the generation, transmission, distribution or supply of electricity … to have regard to the effect on the environment or activities connected with the conveyance of gas through pipes … to have regard to any social and environmental guidance issued by the Secretary of State … to contribute to the achievement of sustainable development”.
It cannot be unreasonable to ask that, like the other regulators, the CAA should be given some form of environmental duty. Indeed, the Department for Transport seems to have come very close to including such a duty in the Bill because, on the day the draft Bill was published—23 November last year—the department’s press release proudly stated that it included an obligation on the CAA to have regard to,
“the effect on the environment and on local communities of activities connected with the provision of airport services”.
If only that had been true at the time. I hope, however, that when this Bill proceeds, it will be true. We will then have a better balanced Bill and, therefore, a better Bill.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I start by declaring an interest. I am chairman of Fairoaks Airport Consultative Committee—a small privately owned aerodrome only about 10 miles from Heathrow in Surrey, but not a candidate, I can assure your Lordships, for the third London airport.
I start by saying that I, too, accept the broad thrust of the Bill. The great issue before civil aviation and the Government is the provision of sufficient runway capacity in the south-east. At the moment as everybody knows, Heathrow, if not full, is close to it, and there is much speculation and discussion as to where the additional capacity should be provided. I listened with interest to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Soley, who was, I think, saying that he is in favour of a third runway at Heathrow. He was once the distinguished Member of Parliament for Hammersmith, as I recall. Indeed, I remember it only too well, because for a while I was the junior Aviation Minister while he was the MP for that constituency. I seem to remember him coming to represent the views of his constituency about flights in and out of Heathrow, as they passed over his constituents, in a fairly critical manner. But perhaps the world has changed. In truth, it has changed, and I must be fair to the noble Lord, because the impact of civil aviation on the population underneath is less now than it was 10 or 20 years ago. He is entitled to take that view and therefore perhaps to now accommodate the idea of a third runway at Heathrow, although that is not a popular view among those who live a little nearer to the airport than do his former constituents in Hammersmith.
Lord Soley
I think I remember the meeting the noble Lord is talking about. It would have been in the very early 1980s. Actually, it was about night flights. I have been in favour of a third runway since 1989 or 1990, and I spoke in favour of it in the House of Commons. However, night flights are different, and I would not go back on that. We have to be very careful about night flights.
Lord Trefgarne
I agree with that. Indeed, I recall that one of the very first issues I was asked to deal with as the junior Aviation Minister—I was there for only nine months, I think—was the numbers of night flights permitted from Heathrow. I dare say the noble Lord came with other Members of Parliament from local constituencies to make their representations to me.
If a third runway is not to be provided at Heathrow—and the Government seem to have set their mind in that direction—then where is it to be provided? Of course, I listened with interest to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Patten, about a sort of mega-airport, as he seemed to be saying, with two runways at Gatwick and two at Heathrow, connected by some wonderful new interconnecting railway. I must confess I have not heard that proposition before, and no doubt the Minister will want to consider it very carefully.
I also listened with interest to the speech of the noble Countess, Lady Mar. She has, of course, made her representations on these matters to your Lordships on several occasions before. They ought to be considered carefully, but it is also fair to say that very few, if any, of the major air-worthiness authorities take a similar view to her. For example, I would have thought that if there were a real issue along the lines that the noble Countess was predicating, presumably the Civil Aviation Authority would have taken some steps to move in that direction. Perhaps it will one day. Perhaps she is a voice crying in the wilderness; perhaps she is a sort of John the Baptist, who will in due course convert us all. But she does, at least, deserve the courtesy of a proper consideration of what she has said, so I shall read it with care. Like almost every noble Lord, I have been a passenger many times in my life, but I was also a pilot for some years, so I am no less interested than she is in these matters.
My noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding referred to some of the important considerations that arise from Part 1, particularly the ring-fencing of the assets of BAA and any other airport operator which finds itself in a similar position, and the question of the right of appeal when those assets are ring-fenced. He makes an important point that will need to be considered carefully when we get to Committee. My noble friend can count on my interest at least, if not support, in these matters when that time comes.
Further provisions of this Bill which are not sufficiently covered are those for general aviation, in which I have played a small part over the years. General aviation is now largely excluded from Heathrow, for obvious reasons, and is almost totally excluded, though not quite so, from Gatwick. It is therefore required to operate from places like Farnborough, and indeed Fairoaks, to which I have already referred. That presents difficulty, particularly for interconnection with other flights, but I do hope that some provision for general aviation can continue to be made, if not at Heathrow then at least at Gatwick and Stansted.
The time marches on. I certainly intend to play a detailed part when we get to the Committee stage of this Bill. I support the broad thrust of what is proposed, but there are a number of detailed matters which will need further consideration.
Lord Smith of Leigh
My Lords, I declare my interest as a former director of Manchester Airport, and currently a member of the shareholder committee of that airport. I have, perhaps, a different perspective to some Members who have already spoken here.
Manchester Airport serves 200 of the 400 destinations the Minister mentioned, which is, I regret to tell my noble friend, more than Heathrow. However, my different perspective does not stop me from giving general support to this legislation. I think it will enhance civil aviation overall. I am particularly glad that the Minister, in his introduction, mentioned the change in governance to the CAA, as I think that could be equally important to some of the other parts.
Until we managed to get ourselves de-designated, Manchester was also covered by the 1986 acts of designation, and I remember those times as being ones of great expense for the airport, and a lot of time-wasting, though we did manage to provide employment for a great number of very highly paid lawyers. Essentially, the results of the quinquennial reviews, when we had them, were probably less onerous on us than the market conditions forced us to implement. So of course, we were pleased to be de-designated, and I am sure the same will be true for other airports.
I wonder whether we ought to reflect the new role the CAA has, and change its name to Ofair. The CAA, in exercising its role in economic regulation, needs to bear in mind two points. First is the relationship between airports and airlines. I think that relationship may best be categorised as that of an elderly married couple, who realise they need to stay together but constantly bicker about who causes the most difficulties. I think we need to recognise that that will go on, under the new regulation scheme.
Secondly, I think we should recognise—as many other noble Lords have mentioned—the importance of aviation in terms of the wealth and employment opportunities it creates in this country. It facilitates trade, as the Minister said, and acts as an international gateway for people coming into the country, and for us getting away. Manchester contributes some £3 billion to the UK economy, and supports around 100,000 jobs. However, the sector is very sensitive to the economic climate, and in yesterday’s Times I saw two reports about this. The first was about how the domestic aviation market has reduced by 20% in five years, and the second was a report that European airlines’ losses are expected to double during the current year—not profits, but losses. The competition that the aviation industry faces is not bound by our national borders, and we need to recognise that the competition that many of our airports face is not just between Gatwick and Heathrow and Manchester, but rather within the European aviation industry.
Unfortunately, I do not think we have a level playing field in this country, because of the air passenger duty. Research that we commissioned in Manchester demonstrates both the damage to UK aviation that that does, and that it particularly damages regional airports. We have evidence that a flight that was planned from Kuala Lumpur into Manchester was diverted into Paris-Orly because they do not have to pay APD there. Also, the price sensitivity of customers at regional airports tends to be higher than in the London region, where there is a high proportion of business traffic. Hopefully, with the greater independence of the CAA, it will actually think about how aviation can develop, and look at the APD as an issue for aviation.
Security is clearly an important part, and I think we all respect that aviation is in the front line of the war against terrorism. It is important, therefore, that the Secretary of State retains the important role of responsibility for this. Airports have co-ordinated with and co-operated with the Government in implementing security matters, and in fact have gone beyond what was required by the Government. Manchester is running a pilot of whole-body screening, which may be an important way forward. To be effective, security needs full co-operation between partners and a proper exchange of information about objectives. I wonder whether some of the problems that we have experienced with border control, mainly at Heathrow but also at other airports, are evidence that we do not always get that co-operation and co-ordination. We can see the consequences. In passing over security to the CAA, we should ensure that we can demonstrate that this will not create more bureaucracy but will improve the situation. When it was responsible, the DfT listened carefully to the expert views of airport staff. Presumably the CAA will continue to do that in future.
The changes in the Bill will obviously involve increased costs for airports. Briefings I have read put the figure at up to 4p per passenger. That may sound a relatively trivial amount, but currently the charge is less than 1p, so from 1p to 4p is quite a large increase. For an airport, it will be a sizeable amount of money to pay. The Minister may want to consider whether it will be appropriate to bring in those charges all at once. I ask him to think in particular about the impact that the charges might have on some of the smallest airports in the country, which are struggling at the moment and should perhaps be considered as a special case.
The Bill also assumes that regulatory charges on airlines will be met through airports. Perhaps that seems logical to the Government and the CAA, but why should airports become responsible for those charges? I am not sure about the assumption that in the current age they will be able to pass them on to airlines. Why does the Bill not simply give powers to the CAA to charge the levies directly to airlines, rather than going through the middlemen of airports?
Will the Minister explain—if not tonight then some other time—the thinking behind Clause 7, which gives market powers in relation to airport areas. “Areas” is an interesting word. Perhaps most of us would have thought that it meant “terminals”. I am not sure that competition between terminals will produce a more effective or efficient use of resources than the current planning system. Airports have invested in their facilities and want the maximum return.
Finally, I agree with the comments of the Transport Select Committee on publications from airports. The powers are too widely drawn and risk creating bureaucracy and additional costs to the aviation industry, while the benefits are less tangible. Airports should be open and transparent, and most are. After our earlier discussions I checked on the websites of Manchester and Gatwick airports. Both already publish substantial amounts on environmental policies. We should be very careful that we do not simply expect airports to do things that the CAA thinks are helpful but which do not really mean anything.
The CAA briefing on this matter gives an interesting analogy. It quotes a number of things, such as the publication of documents about the fuel efficiency of cars, which have affected consumer behaviour. That is probably the case, because consumers pay the costs of running their cars. However, in this case, if the consumers are passengers, they do not benefit from environmental information, even though it may be important and interesting to some of them. The reason that there is much more interest now in carbon reduction measures in aviation is that reducing carbon is not only seen to be a good thing but is cost effective. Airports spend less on energy and save a lot of money.
This is an interesting and important Bill. It needs to be improved in Committee, but in general I welcome it.
Lord Empey
My Lords, I will say a few words in the gap. I apologise to the Minister and to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, for my absence at the beginning of the debate. I was in a Select Committee of the House.
I will take the opportunity to pick up on a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Soley, who pointed out that our aviation sector is still number two in the world and a very important provider of high-quality jobs in the United Kingdom. I take this opportunity to congratulate Bombardier, which secured a massive order yesterday for more than 100 Challenger business aircraft. The fuselages, nacelles and other component parts are made in Belfast. It is excellent news that has done a lot to lift some of the economic gloom that there is around. It proves the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Soley, that this is one of our key sectors in which we are still a world leader and able to bring home orders. The sector deserves significant support.
Like many noble Lords, I support the broad thrust—
The Countess of Mar
I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord. The rules are very strict. One should be present at the beginning of the debate when the Minister opens, and if one is not able to be there one should not speak. I am sorry to stop the noble Lord at this stage, but perhaps the Front Bench will agree with me.
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, the noble Countess, Lady Mar, is absolutely right.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, this has been an interesting debate on a Bill that, as my noble friend Lord Smith of Leigh said, we broadly welcome and support, despite the lack of consolidation to which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, referred with some feeling. A considerable part of the Bill was drafted by the previous Labour Government, including important reforms to the aviation industry’s regulatory regime. The reforms cover the legislative framework for the economic regulation of airports and for the Civil Aviation Authority, and provide a primary duty to further the interests of passengers and freight owners. The Bill provides also for the transfer of certain aviation security functions from the Secretary of State for Transport to the Civil Aviation Authority, and the widening of the Secretary of State’s powers so that holidays sold by airlines or arranged on an “agent for the consumer” basis can be included in the Air Travel Organisers’ Licence scheme in future.
On the other side of the coin, environmental protection measures, which were in the original draft Bill, have now been excluded. A number of noble Lords, including my noble friends Lord Clinton-Davis, Lord Davies of Stamford and Lord Soley, referred to airport capacity and the position of Heathrow. There is no doubt that the Minister will wish to respond to this point, and to my noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham, who raised the question of the continuing lack of a government aviation policy.
On the issue of security regulation and the transfer of certain operational aviation security functions to the Civil Aviation Authority, there must be a suspicion, as my noble friends Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Clinton-Davis said, in the current climate in which the Government have chosen to operate that it is the Secretary of State’s spending review rather than security considerations that will drive the change. The proposed change splits policy and operational matters. The Minister will need to explain how this will improve a security regime that has been in operation successfully since the tragic Lockerbie bombing, and how the proposed significant change in aviation security policy to an outcome-focused, risk-based approach from the current “direct and inspect” policy will operate in practice.
We shall need to know also what parliamentary scrutiny the new regime will receive, not least in order that the Secretary of State’s claim that the security policy changes will not in any way jeopardise what she accepts are the current high levels of security can be tested and checked. There is a risk that staff with considerable expertise in the security field will be lost to the service as a result of the proposed transfer of responsibilities and the uncertainty and upheaval that that will create.
The Government have said that they are keen that as many employees as possible stay in post when their jobs transfer to the Civil Aviation Authority, taking their skills and experience with them. What is the latest position on this issue? Will staff retain their current entitlements on pay, conditions, pensions and redundancy agreements, or should staff be concerned that the ideas of that expert government adviser on human relations, Mr Beecroft, may be implemented and the current arrangements on protecting existing terms and conditions of employment for staff transferring weakened? What assurances can the Minister give on this point?
My noble friend Lord Hunt of Chesterton referred to the importance of addressing environmental considerations. The environmental protection measures that were in the original draft Bill are not in the Bill we are now discussing, as my noble friend Lord Simon and the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, have also pointed out. Perhaps this reflects the Government’s rapidly declining commitment to such issues. There is no longer a clear duty on the Civil Aviation Authority in terms of economic regulation to have regard to the airport operators’ compliance with environmental and planning considerations and law. Without this, airports may well be reluctant to invest in improving environmental performance. As other economic regulators have to take account of the environment, the Government will have to explain why they have not placed such a duty on the Civil Aviation Authority.
There is a case for ticketing to show the environmental impact of different modes of travel to help passengers make decisions, if they so wish, on which form of transport to use based on the environmental impact of travelling by air, by rail or by coach. Giving passengers better information on different modes of transport and what emissions are generated by journeys would provide the opportunity to make more environmentally friendly choices when travelling.
There should be tougher targets for reducing CO2 emissions as the industry’s contribution to addressing climate change. The Government have declined to reaffirm even the target we agreed with industry and government. The Bill should lay down a duty for the Civil Aviation Authority to work with the Secretary of State, the Committee on Climate Change, NATS and air transport service providers to meet the UK’s carbon reduction targets.
The aviation industry also needs to reflect on whether it has given environmental considerations the public prominence they deserve. The image that the industry has in some eyes—fairly or unfairly—is of one that pays little regard to such considerations and the actual and potential adverse impacts they have on the public as the industry campaigns for more airport capacity and increasing numbers of flights. Being seen publicly to give environmental issues and concerns a high priority ought to be regarded as hard commercial sense by the industry, as one reason for the degree of opposition to increasing airport capacity and numbers of flights is no doubt a feeling—once again, justified or unjustified—that addressing the environmental consequences of such developments and the impact on the quality of life of those most affected is not a major concern of the industry and its leadership.
On the passenger experience, we agree with the Transport Select Committee in the other place and its concerns about the lack of any requirement to publish passenger welfare plans. My noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham reminded us that the experience faced by many passengers during the severe winter weather of 2010-11 demonstrated the need for the sector to improve its performance in relation to passenger welfare. The Bill does not appear to be robust in relation to the specific duties on airports in relation to passenger welfare and there needs to be a requirement for airports and the Civil Aviation Authority to give greater help to passengers stranded at airports. Putting this in the Bill, rather than leaving it to the regulator to decide whether to do it, would give a clear indication to the regulator that the Government expect this to be looked at as a key area.
We also agree with the Transport Select Committee in the other place that airport licences should be structured so as to address key areas of passenger satisfaction. The Civil Aviation Authority should also be a source of reliable information to passengers on issues that have a considerable impact on the quality and level of service to passengers at airports. There has been much publicity recently, for example, over queuing times at Heathrow Airport, and arguments and disagreements between the airport and the Immigration Service over how long people are having to queue. The Civil Aviation Authority should be able to play an important role here in collating the evidence and publishing it. What steps are the Minister’s department and the Home Office taking to work together more effectively to deal with the queues at immigration and passport control?
Passengers with disabilities and reduced mobility also need appropriate assistance at airports, especially when passing through security. The Government made a decision to abolish the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee which provided a channel for the advice and experiences of disabled people to be given on improving transport provision. Such advice still needs to be fed-in to airports and policy-makers. The Civil Aviation Authority and the Secretary of State should have a duty to produce perhaps an annual report on the service offered to disabled people at airports and by air transport providers and the extent to which such a service meets the relevant guidelines and European legislation already in place.
However, it is not only at airports that at times passengers may not always feel that they are being treated as though they were valued customers. Another area of concern is over ticket prices and surcharges and the extent to which they are as clear and transparent as they might be. A recent survey, published last month in a national newspaper, showed that one well-known budget airline’s high-season rate for a 20 kilogram bag to go into the hold was £70 return, and if you did not book on-line but turned up at the airport with your bag the fee was £130 one way. The survey of budget airlines’ add-on charges showed that it could cost as much as £110 to change the name on a ticket and £120 because your bag weighed three kilograms over the limit. Add-on charges apply to a multitude of things, covering bags, credit card fees, name change fees, flight change fees and fees for taking on special items such as golf clubs.
When the survey tested costs for a one week return flight to Malaga for one person taking a 20 kilogram bag and paying by credit card, it found add-on costs ranging from £34.95 to £82 depending on the low-cost airline operator. One would have thought that this was an area in which the Civil Aviation Authority could play a role in the interests of passengers and in ensuring fairness and transparency.
Under the Bill, the Civil Aviation Authority remains outside the remit of the National Audit Office, despite it being in receipt of public money and being given important new functions. It should be subject to proper scrutiny and it should also have a duty of efficiency, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, and my noble friend Lord Solely, said, a duty which, likewise, is not provided for in the Bill. As my noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham said, we will want to probe why the Government feel that the arrangements they have proposed will be adequate and appropriate and an improvement on what we are proposing.
We have a number of issues with the Bill that we will wish to pursue in Committee and, in some instances, also on Report depending on the responses we receive to the points we shall be raising. The Bill lays down a primary duty to further the interests of passengers. While we recognise the progress that the Bill represents, we do not consider that as much has been done in the Bill in this regard as could and should have been. However, in overall terms, we support the Bill, much of which was initially drafted by the previous Government. We shall be seeking in our detailed consideration of the Bill to make it even better.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we have conducted a full and wide-ranging debate on the merits of the Bill. Many noble Lords have made the case for the continuing importance of our aviation sector. The continuing success of the industry is essential to our economic growth. The reforms in the Bill have been designed to allow competition to flourish and for our aviation industry to innovate and thrive. The Government, the Opposition, the regulator and the wider aviation industry all support the Bill.
I shall now endeavour to respond to some of the points made by noble Lords but they will understand if I have to be selective in what I reply to. I am grateful for the thoughtful and generally helpful response from the noble Lords, Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Rosser. I am very happy to accept that the previous Administration put a lot of work into the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, complained that the Government did not accept Front Bench amendments in another place. Of course, our roles are now reversed and I am sure that the same accusation could have been levelled at the noble Lord when he was in government.
The noble Lord, Lord Davies, mentioned climate change. He and the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, will recognise that the Bill is about regulation of the aviation industry. However, I look forward to seeing the noble Lord’s amendment on carbon emissions and how they will work within the confines of the Chicago Convention. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, offered gentle criticism of the aviation industry. He will be aware that the new generation of aircraft is much quieter and much more efficient.
My noble friend Lord Bradshaw and the noble Lord, Lord Soley, talked about the problem of stacking. The Civil Aviation Authority’s future airspace strategy deals with this problem and one or two others. The Director of Airspace Policy at the CAA recently made a presentation to your Lordships on the possibilities of the future airspace strategy. My noble friend Lord Bradshaw talked about the possibilities of other UK airports and, for his pains, he got a response from the noble Lord, Lord Soley, about hub connectivity.
The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, and many other noble Lords, raised the issue of capacity at Heathrow. They recognise, of course, that the Bill deals with regulation but I am happy to respond. The Government recognise the need to maintain the UK’s excellent connectivity now, and in the longer term. This is why we will issue a call for evidence later this summer alongside our consultation on the draft aviation policy framework to explore the options to achieve this. We remain committed to adopting the aviation policy framework by March 2013.
The coalition Government’s position regarding a third runway, mixed mode, and the planning cap on air traffic movements at Heathrow has not changed. I can assure noble Lords that we will follow a proper process in developing a long-term aviation policy which is in the UK’s best interests.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Is it still the noble Earl’s view that the Government are ruling out a third runway at Heathrow?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I repeat: I can assure the noble Lords that we will follow a proper process in developing a long-term aviation policy which is in the UK’s best interests.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Time without number it is reiterated that a third runway is to be ruled out and several other government Ministers have said the same. What is the present policy?
Earl Attlee
The noble Lord’s comments are accurate but the words I have just repeated are very carefully thought out. I must move on.
These measures are consistent with the Government’s commitment to runway alternation at Heathrow and the trial—that is, the operational freedoms—will not increase the number of flights at the airport, which remains capped at current levels. I can assure my noble friend Lord Patten that the Bill does not interfere with the aviation policy framework. The two issues are separate; future developments will not be inhibited.
I welcome the comments on the environment—particularly from the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, and many other noble Lords. The issue was also debated at some length in another place. I have listened very carefully to the points raised today. I agree that further consideration should be given to the clarity in the Bill regarding the role of the CAA in allowing licence holders to recover the costs of taking reasonable measures to mitigate the adverse environmental effects of airports in carrying out its functions. Therefore, I look forward to further discussions in Committee. It will, however, be important to get the correct balance between conflicting interests. This will be challenging and we must get it right.
Many noble Lords raised the issue of the NAO auditing the CAA. I am still not persuaded that there are convincing reasons to believe that NAO scrutiny would deliver a better result than the current and planned mechanisms by which the CAA’s functions are audited and scrutinised. In his review of the CAA, Sir Joseph Pilling considered this and concurred that he saw no need for the NAO to be involved directly. Ministers in the previous Government subsequently accepted this recommendation. I have yet to see convincing reasons why they were wrong and nothing has happened since to suggest that this advice needs to be reviewed.
I am not convinced that NAO scrutiny would be more effective than the current system which includes the following elements: the Secretary of State appoints the CAA’s auditors; the Secretary of State places the CAA’s accounts before Parliament; the Secretary of State approves the CAA’s borrowing and sets its required rate of return on capital; the Secretary of State appoints the CAA’s chair and non-executive board members; the CAA’s audit committee is made up of non-executive members who are appointed by the Secretary of State; and the CAA consults on its fees and will be required to do so under the changes set out in Clause 100. In addition, over the period 2001 to 2011, the CAA reduced its operating costs in real terms by 20%. I note that some noble Lords suggested additional functions or capability that the CAA should acquire.
Following discussion in another place on 25 April in the Bill Committee, the Minister, my right honourable friend Theresa Villiers, announced a new non-legislative measure to increase the transparency of the CAA’s moves towards greater efficiency. On an annual basis, the Department for Transport issues a report direction and an accounts direction to the CAA specifying the matters that should be addressed in the authority’s annual report and accounts. From 2013 onwards, the Secretary of State will strengthen the scrutiny of the CAA by including in the annual directions a requirement to include an efficiency statement in the annual report.
I am grateful for the contribution from my noble friend Lord Trefgarne about general aviation. The primary duty will be capable of capturing general aviation interests where they are aligned with the interests of users of air transport services. Broadly speaking, users of transport services will be passengers and freight owners using air services to and from the UK—including future users. In so far as owners of small aircraft fall within this, they will be covered. It can also be noted that only around 0.1% of flights at regulated airports comprise general aviation.
My noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding raised concern that an airline right of appeal touching on an airport’s financial arrangements would seriously inhibit the airport’s ability to raise finances. The noble Lord, Lord Soley, and my noble friend Lord Bradshaw raised similar concerns. The Government remain of the opinion that there are good reasons to include financial resilience licence conditions, with appropriate derogations where these cut across existing financing. We also remain of the opinion that the broad rights of appeal in the Bill provide an effective means of improving the accountability of key regulatory decisions and enable the interest of both airport operators and materially affected airlines to be taken into account in the licence process.
We believe that it is correct that the right of appeal extends to financial resilience licence conditions. Any dispute as to whether a derogation would cause a breach of the existing financial arrangements is most likely to arise from questions of law over the true construction of a loan agreement and/or licence condition. These could ultimately be resolved through judicial review and, in the mean time, an airport operator could seek an injunction to preserve the status quo. Markets should therefore be reassured that the risk of existing creditor protection in an airport operator’s funding structure being unintentionally removed, triggering an event of default, is extremely unlikely. Investors are experienced in managing regulatory uncertainty in their normal course of lending to the regulated sector and we would expect them to manage this situation as well. However, I know how strongly BAA feels about the issue and I will be meeting with it shortly.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, raised issues about staff in the event of the transfer of security functions from the Department for Transport to the CAA. It is important to ensure that the CAA has the skills and resources to undertake its new security functions. The Government are working to a plan that would aim for the CAA to take on the aviation security regulation function from the spring of 2014. The Government hope that existing staff will want to continue working in the security environment, but if any of them decide to move elsewhere, there will be enough time to manage this.
The noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, raised the issue of aviation safety standards. The UK is a signatory to the Chicago convention and is required by the ICAO to have in place a state safety programme to achieve an acceptable level of safety in civil aviation. The Civil Aviation Bill currently before Parliament does not deal with safety issues as there is already sufficient European and international legislation in place which addresses them.
The noble Countess, Lady Mar, raised the issue of organophosphates. This is a separate matter and one of research rather than legislation. I am pleased to be able to tell the House that the last piece of research that your Lordships asked the Department for Transport to commission, under successive Governments, into allegations regarding airplane cabin air quality, has now been completed and published. All the published research studies have now been formally referred to the Committee on Toxicity, the independent adviser to the Government on matters concerning the toxicity of chemicals, for it to consider.
The Countess of Mar
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his comments. Does he agree that there is a serious problem in that the Civil Aviation Authority is responsible for people in an aeroplane both when it is on the ground and when it is in flight, but it does not impose health and safety regulations, as would be the case with the Health and Safety Executive? It looks after people on an airport site who are not in aeroplanes, but does not consider the COSHH regulations. Numerous Questions for Written Answer have been tabled on this issue, but no one takes responsibility for the passengers, pilots or aircrew.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Countess will recognise that these are complex matters. I will write to her on all the points she raised.
The noble Lord, Lord Soley, asked if the Bill will cover military airports and whether they could be exempted under Clause 77. In certain circumstances, military airports can be exempted from economic regulation under Chapter 1 and Clause 77.
My noble friend Lord Bradshaw was concerned about the market power test set out in Clause 6. His specific concern was that unless an airport operator has market power, it should not be regulated. I would like to reassure my noble friend that, under the Bill, where an airport does not and is unlikely to acquire substantial market power, it will not be made subject to economic regulation. It is a specific requirement of the market power test in Clause 6.
The noble Lord, Lord Rogan, talked about the aviation needs of Northern Ireland. The Government and the Civil Aviation Authority have no role in the slot allocation process. EC regulations established a mechanism for the allocation of slots at congested airports. This has been transposed into UK law under the Airports Slot Allocation Regulations 2006, which came into effect on 1 January 2007. Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Manchester and London City airports are all designated by the Secretary of State for Transport as co-ordinated airports with their slot allocations managed by Airport Coordination Limited, an independent company which has powers under the UK regulations to monitor the conformity of air carriers’ operations with the slots allocated to them, and to take enforcement action against those airlines that do not operate according to the regulations, in particular by introducing sanctions for slot misuse. The ring-fencing of slots at Heathrow to protect regional services, other than where a public service obligation has been implemented, would be incompatible with EU law. The UK has highlighted the issue of regional connectivity with the European Commission in the context of the current reform of the EU slot regulations and is exploring the scope for including measures to help secure the ongoing provision of air services between UK regions and congested London airports. Beginning this summer, Commission working groups will examine the slot proposals, and I commend the work of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, who has been extremely active and effective in Brussels.
The noble Lords, Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Davies of Stamford, commented on the UK Border Force. It is not covered by the Civil Aviation Bill and is accountable to Ministers and Parliament as a Home Office agency. Queues at airports are caused by many factors, including the border force receiving incorrect flight manifests and early or late airplane arrivals, resulting in bunching. The Minister for Immigration and Citizenship is reviewing what additional data may be published by the Home Office and shared with port operators. Meanwhile, the UK Border Force has responded to recent problems with queues in a number of ways. It is tackling short-term peaks with a pool of trained staff, and working with airports and airlines to ensure that they provide more accurate passenger manifests and flight schedules so that the force can flexibly deploy staff at the right times and in the right places. It is creating a new central control room for the UK Border Force at Heathrow that will use mobile teams for rapid deployment, and it will implement new rostering and shift patterns. It is also working with Gatwick and Heathrow airports to improve passenger flows using more specific measures such as e-gates and other biometric checks.
The noble Lord, Lord Davies, asked why there is no obligation on the CAA to require airports to develop passenger welfare plans. The indicative licence prepared by the CAA included, at the request of the Department for Transport, an example condition that would strengthen an airport’s resilience where appropriate. The proposals contained in Condition 7 require the licence holder to operate the airport efficiently and to use its “best endeavours” to minimise any detriment to passengers arising from disruption. It would also require the airport to draw up, consult on and gain the CAA’s approval for an annual resilience plan setting out how it will secure compliance with its obligations under the condition. The licence holder would be obliged to comply with the commitments it has made in its resilience plan.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Chesterton, mentioned the issue of the difference in the quality of the air between first and economy class. The air is the same throughout an aircraft. First class seats and economy class seats are usually separated by a curtain, which is not an airtight medium.
Lord Hunt of Chesterton
I was talking about the volume of air. We know that there is air, but the question is how much of it is circulating. That is a very clear distinction.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, if I have anything further to add, I will write to the noble Lord.
My noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding raised the issue of consolidation. We should strive to produce legislation that is comprehensible to those who have to operate it and to those who are affected by it, and the consolidation of statute law can make a valuable contribution to this. Consolidation can take different forms. On the one hand, there can be what we call “formal consolidation”, which reproduces a law on a particular topic without any changes. On the other hand, a Bill may reproduce existing law with amendments. In recent years, fewer formal consolidation measures have been prepared than previously. One reason for this has been the change to the way that Parliament amends legislation. Amendments are now routinely made by textual amendment; that is, by inserting, removing or replacing text in the original statute. The need to consolidate simply to take account of textual changes has therefore largely disappeared. The approach taken in the Civil Aviation Bill is sometimes to make brand new provisions, as in Part 1, and sometimes to textually amend existing legislation, as in Part 2. When drafting the Bill, the changes being made did not appear to call for the rewriting of the law relating to civil aviation or aviation security. The specific textual amendments to other Acts made by the Bill show more clearly the changes that are being made than would a provision which replaced the whole of the legislation being amended, with the changes buried somewhere in the middle.
I have endeavoured to respond to many of the valuable points made by noble Lords, but time does not allow me to respond to all the points that have been made, no matter how good they are. I will read Hansard carefully and write to those noble Lords who have asked me questions that I have not been able to answer. I will also be delighted to have meetings with noble Lords outside the Chamber to look at the detail of these matters. This is only the first opportunity to formally discuss the Civil Aviation Bill in your Lordships’ House, and I look forward to debating it with noble Lords in Committee.