Commons Chamber

Tuesday 17th March 2026

(began 2 weeks, 6 days ago)

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None Portrait Q3. What discussions he has had with his counterparts in countries to which foreign national prisoners will be returned on ensuring that prisoners serve the full term of a sentence handed down by the UK courts. (908322)
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by a foreign national, and that robbed her mother of her daughter and her grandsons, of their much
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David Lammy Portrait Rt Hon David Lammy MP, The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Tottenham, Labour)
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And also a reduction in funding >> And also a reduction in funding of 23%. He knows 90% of cases criminal justice cases are dealt criminal justice cases are dealt with by the magistrates court, 10% go to the Crown court. 7% of those people plead guilty. That leaves 3%. Our bill is to deal with a small proportion of that in a new division, so we can do that swiftly. I've explained for the reasons before about demand in the system, about the length of trial, why it is my judgement that these have to be sustained changes as were made by the Thatcher government at the end of the 80s, and the Labour government at the end of the 70s.

That is what I proposed. It will now go to committee and Report stage and get the debate and discussion in the usual way.

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Speaker. Number seven, please.

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Minister this government is dedicated to increasing transparency in our courts. We're expanding Free Crown Court expanding Free Crown Court sentencing transcripts to all victims who request them. We are also rolling out recording to all magistrates courts so that all criminal cases heard in open court will now be recorded, as well as working with our judiciary to see

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working with our judiciary to see where we can go even further in terms of transparency. Mr. Speaker, the Courts and Tribunals Bill does indeed seek to increase transparency of court proceedings in several.
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None Portrait Q8. What steps he is taking to support victims' rights. (908328)
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nursery in Twickenham. Her victim's parents were only given six days notice that she was being deported
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None Portrait Q15. What plans his Department has to provide adequate funding for the Crown Court. (908336)
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Anna Dixon.
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None Portrait Ministerial statement: Meningococcal Disease Outbreak
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paramount that we stick to the facts, which is what I intend to do.
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Wes Streeting Portrait Rt Hon Wes Streeting MP, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ilford North, Labour)
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facts, which is what I intend to do. This is the current situation as of 930 this morning, UK HSA has confirmed four cases of Group B meningococcal disease, with another 11 cases under investigation. The 11 cases under investigation. The two deaths are associated with this cluster. The majority of cases link back to the club chemistry nightclub over the dates of the fifth, sixth and 7th of March, and their associated networks. Club chemistry is currently closed voluntarily going forward.

Mr. speaker, these figures will be updated publicly by UK HSA each day at 9:30 a.m. Let me now turn to the timeline of this outbreak. UK. HSA was notified about the first case on Friday the 13th of March, in line with established protocol, health officials began identifying and tracing the patient's immediate close contacts, who were offered prophylactic antibiotics as a matter of urgency. On Saturday, UK HSA were in touch with the University of Kent to ensure they had the necessary support, advice and guidance and to establish where the patient was living.

Also on Saturday, the French authorities alerted UK HSA to a second confirmed case in France from an individual who had attended the University of Kent. Both cases lived in private accommodation and at that stage there was no apparent link between the two. At 7 p.m. on Saturday evening, hospitals reported that a number of severely unwell young adults were presenting with symptoms consistent with meningococcal disease. Contact tracing of these individuals began immediately and continued into Sunday morning, March the 15th.

All those traced were offered precautionary antibiotics. So far, 700 doses have been administered. Recognising the scale of the potential outbreak. At 10 a.m. on Sunday, UK, HSA stood up a full scale response, including preparations for more widespread distribution of antibiotics on campus by 5 p.m. on Sunday, those antibiotics were in place and distribution began to students in the two halls of residence where we were aware of cases and by 6 p.m. a public health alert was issued. Mr Speaker.

It is important that the House and the wider public understands that even before the public health alert was issued, students and young people who had been in close contact with suspected cases were being offered antibiotics. This is precisely what one would expect as a rapid response, and I am confident UK HSA acted as quickly and as comprehensively as possible. In addition to cases involving students at the University of Kent, there were two cases identified involving sixth formers in year 13, one of whom has sadly died.

UK HSA made contact with the headteachers at both schools first thing on Monday morning, and have worked closely with schools to provide information, advice and support, including a letter to parents that was issued that same day. We are working closely with DfE on wider communications to schools across the Kent area, and a briefing with schools has taken place this morning. Mr. speaker, the strain associated with this outbreak is meningitis B, known as Menb. It is uncommon, as we have seen, a serious and potentially lethal strain of meningococcal disease.

The onset of illness is often sudden and early diagnosis and treatment with antibiotics are vital. It doesn't spread very easily. The bacteria is passed to others after a long period of close contact, for example, with living with someone in shared accommodation through prolonged kissing or sharing vapes and drinks. However, the symptoms are also easily mistaken for other common conditions, even for something like a hangover. And so, Mr. Speaker, let me now set out the current advice from UK HSA.

Anyone who attended club chemistry on March the 5th, sixth or seventh and anyone who believes they were in close contact with someone who's confirmed or suspected to have meningitis should attend a treatment centre and receive antibiotics. There are four centres open in Canterbury today, with 11,000 doses available on site. Details about the location of these centres are available on the UK HSA website and are being promoted by the UK, HSA, the NHS. My department, schools and the university as well as the BBC and I encourage all media outlets to do the same.

There is no need to book an appointment. A single course of antibiotics is highly effective in preventing the contraction and spread of this disease. In 90% of cases. If you become worried about yourself, your child, or a friend, particularly if symptoms are getting worse, please seek medical help urgently. Anyone with symptoms should call NHS 111 or in an emergency, dial 999 to seek medical attention. Mr. speaker, people are understandably asking about a vaccine. From 2015. The Menb vaccine has been available on the NHS as part of routine childhood immunisation immunisations, but clearly most students would not be vaccinated given the severity of the situation.

I can confirm to the House that we will begin a targeted vaccination programme for students living in halls of residence at the University of Kent in Canterbury, which will begin in the coming days. UK HSA will provide further advice on other cohorts in the coming days. On the question of wider eligibility, we obviously follow the expert independent advice of the Jcvi. In light of this latest outbreak, I will be asking them to re-examine eligibility for meningitis vaccines. I will do so without prejudicing their decision, because we have to follow the clinical advice on this.

Mr. speaker, I will keep the House updated as the situation unfolds,

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House. Sir, the Secretary of State. Stuart Andrew thank. You, Mr. Speaker, and I'm

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You, Mr. Speaker, and I'm grateful to the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement and for the clarity he has provided and for the clarity he has provided to the House this afternoon. Our thoughts, too, are with the families of the two young people who have so tragically lost their lives. I cannot imagine the pain they must be going through at this difficult time. This will also be difficult time. This will also be an extremely distressing time for parents, students, staff and the wider community across the southeast.

Especially as I understand two more cases have just been announced. Indeed, yesterday
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Stuart Andrew Portrait Rt Hon Stuart Andrew MP (Daventry, Conservative)
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friends of mine were very anxious about their own son who was in the vicinity over the weekend. I also vicinity over the weekend. I also want to pay tribute to the NHS staff, public health teams, school and university leaders and all and university leaders and all those working at pace to respond. I welcome what the Secretary of State has set out on the daily publication of figures. The scale up of antibiotic provision and the up of antibiotic provision and the decision to introduce a targeted vaccination programme for students in halls of residence, alongside seeking further advice from Jcvi.

However, there remain a number of important questions. First on the timeline as there have been concerns raised out there. The Secretary of State has set out the sequence of events in detail, but can he be clear about the threshold used for wider in light of this outbreak? He also set out that headteachers were contacted on Monday morning. Can he clarify when those schools were first identified and whether there is a need to review how quickly educational settings are brought into the response, given that cases were identified several days beforehand.

Secondly, on the nature of the outbreak, while many cases are linked to a single venue, can he confirm whether all cases are believed to be part of one cluster, or whether there remains a risk of multiple sources of infection? Thirdly, on escalation, given the involvement of both a university and schools, can the Secretary of State set out what criteria are being used to determine when more extensive interventions are required across educational settings? This situation will undoubtedly cause concern among families, particularly with the end of term approaching.

Can he therefore set out what steps are being taken to manage the risk of onward spread as students return home, and what advice is being provided to families and local health services in other parts of the country? Can he also confirm that public health messaging is fully consistent across schools, GPS, local authorities and NHS services so that families receive clear advice wherever they turn and what steps are being taken to counter misinformation online. Where false claims may undermine confidence in public health advice.

Can he also confirm that local laboratories, intensive care capacity and public health teams are fully resourced to manage any increase in cases, and that supply chains for antibiotics and vaccines are resilient should further clusters emerge. Finally, while I welcome the targeted vaccination programme and the decision to seek further advice from Jcvi, the Secretary of State has acknowledged that most students would not have been routinely vaccinated against meningitis B, and protection among older teenagers is clearly not as strong as it is in infancy.

Does he accept that this creates a particular vulnerability among older teenagers and young adults? And while he and will he ensure that any further advice on eligibility or wider catch up measures is brought forward as quickly as possible? Mr. speaker, this is a serious public health situation. It is right that the response, though, remains calm, evidence led and focussed on protecting patients and supporting

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those families affected. He. Firstly, Mr. Speaker, can I thank the Shadow Secretary of State thank the Shadow Secretary of State for his constructive response and support as we respond to this support as we respond to this incident, and also welcome the way in which he has rightly brought in which he has rightly brought scrutiny to the response and I should say from the outset, Mr. Speaker, that obviously, once we're through this, we will obviously look at the handling of the UK's response at every point, because inevitably there are always things that we can learn and seek to do better, and the balance that needed
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Wes Streeting Portrait Rt Hon Wes Streeting MP, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ilford North, Labour)
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to be sought in terms of public communication, Mr. Speaker, was to make sure that people were informed make sure that people were informed in a timely way, but also to make sure of two things. Firstly, we didn't spread unnecessary anxiety and concern, and secondly, that and concern, and secondly, that having been made aware of the risk that there was a channel through which people could receive support. So as I set out in the timeline in response to individual cases, thorough contract tracing was undertaken.

Antibiotics were offered in in those direct contacts. In those cases. And then by 5 p.m. on Sunday, we had the antibiotics more widely available than 6 p.m. public communication went out. The schools were identified during the course of Sunday. That wasn't a straightforward experience. And in the case of those schools, the two schools Simon Langton Grammar School, Queen Elizabeth's Grammar School in Faversham, were both contacted first thing on Monday. We're also looking at Norton Knatchbull School in Ashford, where there may potentially be another case, and we are working closely with with those schools.

They were notified on Monday morning and we've stood up wider school briefing. We will look carefully at whether we could have done more, more quickly to identify those schools and to make contact ahead of the Monday morning, the shadow Secretary of State asks about the criteria for educational settings and the sort of wider availability of of of vaccination. We are looking at this actively with UK, HSA and will make announcements about further cohorts in the coming days.

In terms of local NHS capacity, the NHS in the South East region are supporting UK HSA, who are the lead agency in the response to the bacterial meningitis outbreak. Kent and Medway ICB have stood up and are currently operating a hub at Kent University site to deliver prophylaxis to students, and second site has been open to. We've obviously made sure that in responding to patients. Presenting at hospital that appropriate support is in place for those hospitals and the Shadow Secretary of State also asks about supply of antibiotics and vaccination.

We're confident that we have the right levels in place to respond, and obviously, as we think about potentially widening cohorts, we'll make sure that supply is available in a timely and

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effective way. Naushabah Khan thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the Minister for his statement, and I particularly welcome his announcement that he's reviewing the ongoing use of the vaccine to a the ongoing use of the vaccine to a wider cohort, given that the university is at Kent, also have campuses in Medway. Could he just inform me what work he's doing with the universities to ensure that the spread across other campuses is monitored on a regular basis, and that if there is any potential for this to spread further, that that has been reviewed regularly.

Thank you.
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Alison Bennett Portrait Alison Bennett MP (Mid Sussex, Liberal Democrat)
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unreasonable for young people and their families elsewhere in the country to be wondering whether they should be seeking catch up vaccines. Young people will not have been protected by the men B have been protected by the men B vaccine available to those born after 2015. Is the Secretary of State confident that there is sufficient stock to deliver protection to all those who need it? protection to all those who need it? And as well as talking to the Jcvi, will the Secretary of State involve meningitis now, who have called for teenagers and young people born prior to 2015 to be vaccinated against meningitis B on the NHS? Mr Speaker vaccinations rates are falling in the UK, including for meningitis.

To this end, all politicians and all political parties have a moral duty to support science over conspiracy theories. It is deeply regrettable that certain parties have not been responsible in this respect. In recent months. I and my Liberal Democrat colleagues are worried that these avoidable deaths will become more common. Should this narrative persist. We must encourage those communities and healthcare workers who are not currently taking up vaccines. To do so, we must build trust to tackle disinformation and encourage people, regardless of where they live, to take up life saving vaccines.

Thank you.

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Jo Stevens can I thank the Liberal Democrat spokesperson for her response and also strongly her response and also strongly endorse what she said about the importance of vaccination when it comes to determining which vaccines are available and to which cohort. Obviously, we follow the advice of Obviously, we follow the advice of Jcvi, but I really hope that if there's one good thing that can come out of an awful situation, it's the the general public awareness of the importance of taking up vaccinations where they
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Wes Streeting Portrait Rt Hon Wes Streeting MP, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ilford North, Labour)
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are available. They remain one of the best public health tools available to us. And it is, on one hand, a very good thing that there are few people alive in this are few people alive in this country today who, you know, remember the dark days that where this country didn't have a National Health Service and didn't have vaccination available for common treatments? It's wonderful that we treatments? It's wonderful that we now live in a country where there are very distant memories of some of those everyday conditions being widespread killers, but there is also a real risk of a return to those Victorian conditions because of that misinformation.

Anti-Science, irresponsible political positioning that we see in certain corners of even this House. So I really hope that that politicians in particular, will think carefully and responsibly about our shared duty to the public to help people be protected in terms of the specific concerns raised, the public health risk to the wider population remains low, but we are actively contact tracing and offering antibiotic prophylaxis to those in close contact with cases. The antibiotics are really effective in, and it's one course and is effective in 90% of cases.

So we are actively contact tracing. But once again, I emphasise if for people watching, if you or someone you know develops symptoms of meningitis or septicaemia, seek medical help urgently by by calling one one 1 or 9 nine nine, particularly if symptoms deteriorate. And if you're one of those students at the University of Kent who may have left campus and would otherwise have been visiting one of those four sites, we're making arrangements for you to be

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able to see your GP and receive the antibiotics. They're Sojan Joseph.

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They're Sojan Joseph. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank Honourable Secretary of State for the statement. I want to pay the statement. I want to pay tribute to all the health leaders in Kent and the school leaders for in Kent and the school leaders for their calm and quick actions yesterday and over the weekend, I was able to get a briefing from UK HSA yesterday morning and also was able to visit my local hospital, William Harvey Hospital, where they have made an immediate changes to any to care.

Those patients was
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Wes Streeting Portrait Rt Hon Wes Streeting MP, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ilford North, Labour)
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spread. And this may be. If you live with in the same household as live with in the same household as someone and there's intimate contact such as kissing, sharing of contact such as kissing, sharing of vapes, drinks, those sorts of things, that's where the risk exists of spread. So this is not exists of spread. So this is not like some of the other respiratory conditions that we've seen more conditions that we've seen more recently. And it is important people understand how this disease is spread, because I think people may find that reassuring.

But also we've got, I think, a range of symptoms that can present that can include a rash that does not fade when pressed with a glass, sudden onset of high fever, severe and worsening headache, stiff neck, vomiting and diarrhoea, joint and muscle pain, dislike of bright lights, very cold hands and feet, seizures, confusion or delirium, and extreme sleepiness or difficulty waking. Now there's you know those symptoms could also apply to a wide range of other conditions. So as ever, if in doubt, the best thing to do is to seek medical advice, whether that's calling 111 in an emergency, dialling 999, or indeed seeing your GP.

But I urge everyone to share the public health information as it's disseminating online so we can spread facts rather than misinformation. Committee.

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Mr. speaker. I would like to share, of course, my condolences with those families my condolences with those families and communities affected by this. I cannot begin, as the Secretary of State said, to imagine what they State said, to imagine what they must be thinking and feeling during this time, and also to thank those staff who have been involved in the staff who have been involved in the response. I echo Secretary of State's hope that from this tragedy will come greater public awareness.

will come greater public awareness. But may I also add to that an increased laser like focus on vaccination and immunisation from the highest levels of government. He may be aware that the Select
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Layla Moran Portrait Layla Moran MP (Oxford West and Abingdon, Liberal Democrat)
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Committee did a one off inquiry into vaccination and immunisation. I have to be honest with him. It is I have to be honest with him. It is one of our strongest letters we have ever sent the department, we have ever sent the department, we have deep concerns. We use words like complacent, which, by the way, I don't think apply to this specific case. I think I do believe specific case. I think I do believe that the UK HSA have taken this incredibly seriously and the mobilisation has happened.

But I mobilisation has happened. But I have to say, despite not because of underlying resilience in the current system with the Secretary of State undertake to look at what we have sent him and his Department and he undertake himself to want to lead this response, not just for

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this incident, but for the whole of vaccination trends in this country. From now on. Sarah state.

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Sarah state. Can I firstly welcome what the chair of the Select Committee has said about the response to this particular incident, and she is right to press more broadly on the right to press more broadly on the issue of vaccination. If I think back to the winter campaign we've just run, it was more successful just run, it was more successful than last winter. But directly to her point about complacency, I would be the first to say that even with that improvement, I still don't think we are doing well enough as a country when it comes to vaccination rates.

I am particularly concerned about childhood vaccine. I can give her
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Wes Streeting Portrait Rt Hon Wes Streeting MP, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ilford North, Labour)
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the assurance that not only will I and our new public health Minister look very carefully, and I welcome look very carefully, and I welcome to the chamber and the front bench. We will look at that very carefully and take that very seriously and reply both directly to the committee and in terms of actions with the seriousness that the with the seriousness that the letter warrants, but also just reassure her. I'm already talking to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for education, Secretary of State for education, at what more we can do together as the Department for Education and the NHS Department for Health and Social Care, to make sure that we are improving childhood immunisation as well as wider

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vaccine uptake across the population. Kerry McCarthy thank you, Mr. Speaker, and. I'd just like to.

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I'd just like to. Add my name. To the all the people who are sharing that their hearts are going out to everyone affected by this out to everyone affected by this terrible tragedy that's unfolding. It's particularly to people in Sittingbourne and Sheppey, many of whom are students who attend the universities and Canterbury who go to schools in Faversham, and of to schools in Faversham, and of course, lots of constituents who are staff there as well. It's going to be particularly hard on my constituents.

Sue, whose son died of meningitis a few years ago, and she's been tirelessly campaigning for a change in the law on duty of care for people in those situations. Matthew could be alive today if action was taken swiftly enough by action was taken swiftly enough by the people who were with him. So I just ask the Secretary of State, just ask the Secretary of State, what more can we do to make sure that everyone on the ground across Kent and more widely, really knows Kent and more widely, really knows what to do in case they see the signs and symptoms of meningitis.
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Helen Whately Portrait Helen Whately MP (Faversham and Mid Kent, Conservative)
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university student who has died. Sixth formers and students mix in Sixth formers and students mix in the same crowded venues in Canterbury, so the government must fully consider the risk to fully consider the risk to schoolkids as well as the students in the university's. I'm grateful to the NHS and the UK HSA for the to the NHS and the UK HSA for the action. They have already been taken locally, but many parents feel that they are not getting feel that they are not getting enough information and schools have also found themselves struggling to get guidance.

Can I ask the Secretary of State why was there no contact with schools until the Monday? Have all school pupils who went to Peckham been identified and invited for treatment, and will he roll out the vaccination programme he's spoken about to local schools, including residential schools in the area.

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So can I thank the right hon.

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So can I thank the right hon. Member firstly, for that wonderful and moving tribute to Juliet from and moving tribute to Juliet from her headteacher, which I think just brings into sharp relief the brings into sharp relief the devastating impact that this has had and the anxiety that many other parents will be feeling in common parents will be feeling in common with her. Can I also thank the proactive way in which she has been in contact with me and with UK HSE over the weekend? She's asking the right questions.

My understanding and I. We will obviously review
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Wes Streeting Portrait Rt Hon Wes Streeting MP, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ilford North, Labour)
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this and come back in more detail to the right hon. Member. But also the House. There was some challenge on Sunday identifying the schools concerned and contact was made on concerned and contact was made on Monday morning. I think we do have to look really hard at whether more could and should have been done to could and should have been done to have been in touch with those individual schools on the Sunday, but I think schools more generally. but I think schools more generally.

She's absolutely right to identify that there would have been other sixth formers over the age of 18, and potentially some who maybe should not have been in the nightclub, but may have been. And it's really important that we we have a grip on who those young people are to make sure they get access to good, high quality health information, advice, and to make sure they know where to go, where they have concerns. I am confident that these four hubs will reach those young people, and that the flow of information is improving.

But she is absolutely right to press and probe on whether we could and should have been more effective at communication with schools, as

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we certainly were with the university. Jim Dickson thank you, Mr. Speaker, and can I thank the Secretary of State for his Secretary of State for his statement, and I absolutely echo his words and those of other members on the tragic loss of two members on the tragic loss of two young lives to meningitis as a result of this outbreak. Many result of this outbreak. Many residents in Dartford remain understandably concerned. And can I welcome, therefore, his assurance welcome, therefore, his assurance and those of UK HSE, that the meningitis outbreak is linked to a very specific venue and event, and obviously it's been encouraging to see the swift action from health
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Wes Streeting Portrait Rt Hon Wes Streeting MP, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ilford North, Labour)
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underscore the nature of the transmission of this disease, which transmission of this disease, which is close personal contact, kissing, sharing vapes, which I'm concerned about in the context of young about in the context of young people sharing drinks. And obviously, if people live in a household together, some of those household together, some of those things are even more likely to occur. But the general risk is low. So I don't want people. I want people to, you know, think carefully about their own situation.

But people shouldn't be unnecessarily worried or anxious. So in terms of where we are on antibiotic access, students at schools who've had close contact, those who are at Club chemistry, they can attend the sites for antibiotics. This was the message that went out to all Kent schools this morning, so hopefully there will be an improvement in the flow and accuracy of information going to schools. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say we need to once this incident has passed, to look back and reflect on what was done, when and what can we learn from that.

But at the same time, I'm also keen to make sure that we're listening, getting active feedback from members across the House and improving in real time as well. So we will we will keep these channels open not just through questions today, but through briefings with Members of Parliament, keeping our channels open so that we can get feedback from local elected representatives, which in her case and others has

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been extremely valuable. I've Lauren Sullivan. I'd like to send my condolences.

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To. The families affected and for all those that have lost young lives in the past of meningitis, I lives in the past of meningitis, I welcome the Secretary of State on the targeted vaccine programme, as well as the rollout to deliver well as the rollout to deliver antibiotics at pace. Vaccines are the most effective way and powerful ways to protect individuals and ways to protect individuals and community at large. But we know that infectious diseases mutate and we must be ready.

So will he commit to work the work being done in the future to look at MP vaccine, to make sure that it does offer wider protection? And similar to the MMR vaccine, which is offered to vaccine, which is offered to students and young people before they embark on life, would this be considered to be part of that package?
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Wes Streeting Portrait Rt Hon Wes Streeting MP, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ilford North, Labour)
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can be collected from one of four can be collected from one of four sites. If they or someone they know develops symptoms of meningitis or septicaemia, they should seek septicaemia, they should seek medical help urgently by going to the nearest accident emergency department or dialling 999. If it's department or dialling 999. If it's not an emergency and people are concerned they can contact their GP concerned they can contact their GP or NHS 111 and symptoms of meningitis and septicaemia can include the rash that doesn't fade when pressed with a glass, sudden onset of high fever, severe and worsening headaches, stiff neck, vomiting and diarrhoea, joint and muscle pain, dislike of bright lights, very cold hands and feet, seizures, confusion or delirium, and extreme sleepiness or difficulty waking.

And I just want to underscore again in terms of the risk of transmission, the general risk is low and transmission takes place through close, direct and prolonged personal contact with things like kissing, sharing vapes and drinks. So that's that's why I think we need to get the balance right between awareness and people thinking about their own situation, and whether any of these factors apply to them without spreading unnecessary anxiety. Because most people, including the overwhelming majority of students at the university and people in Canterbury

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and will not be at risk. Kirsty Blackman. Our thoughts just now are with

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Our thoughts just now are with everyone involved in this, and particularly our support is with all of the staff that are dealing with it, whether that's medical with it, whether that's medical professionals, university staff or UK HSE. And I understand that the Secretary of State's immediate Secretary of State's immediate priority will be in relation to this specific outbreak today. this specific outbreak today. Doctor Amirthalingam from UK HSE was on radio four this morning and suggested that the progression of this outbreak is atypical, with the Secretary of State give reassurance that the devolved authorities, health authorities will be given updates on this so that they are aware, in case there is another aware, in case there is another atypical progression at any point in the future, anywhere else in these islands.
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Wes Streeting Portrait Rt Hon Wes Streeting MP, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ilford North, Labour)
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stiff neck, vomiting and diarrhoea, joint and muscle pain, dislike of bright lights, very cold hands and bright lights, very cold hands and feet, seizures, confusion or delirium, and extreme sleepiness or delirium, and extreme sleepiness or difficulty waking. Those symptoms can apply to a range of conditions, can apply to a range of conditions, but I think it is a good thing if, particularly students who may have been at club chemistry on the dates been at club chemistry on the dates concerned, instead of writing off some of these symptoms as a hangover, it is better to be reassured than than ignorant and therefore going forward, seeking medical attention and advice is the right thing to do, rather than simply writing it off as another one of those things.

So I would urge parents to give that advice to young people and to students to

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follow that advice to Vikki Slade. Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. Meningitis is.

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One of the worst. Nightmares that parents worry about when they're particularly when they're teenagers, leave home and are

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teenagers, leave home and are living away. My constituent Vicky Purdy from. Corfe Mullen, had her life changed two years ago from changed two years ago from meningitis, is still unable to walk unaided, but is calling for meningitis awareness in schools, particularly via PS, h e lessons and a university through freshers packs. Will he talk to his colleagues in DfE to progress this, given the high risk nature of this age group and the fact that this age group will not have been vaccinated, they were born before 2015.
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Wes Streeting Portrait Rt Hon Wes Streeting MP, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Ilford North, Labour)
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Secretary of State. for his question. It's it's worth bearing in mind that the transmission of this particular disease is through close and prolonged personal contact, and therefore the risk of transmission is much lower than other outbreaks of disease we've seen in this country in recent years, particularly respiratory diseases. And some of the concerns people have had around flu over the winter, for example, we are obviously actively contact tracing. We're making antibiotics available. And of course, it is for individuals to make their own judgements about their own risk of exposure and therefore what that means in terms of close personal contact, but more generally in terms of the situation of students returning home from university, if they're sat next to someone on a train, for example, then you know, that's not close, prolonged personal contact.

So I hope that reassures people that through contact tracing, through the availability of antibiotics, through the standing up of the targeted vaccination campaign, we are actively managing the risk of transmission. And the risk to the

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general public is very low. Can I thank the Secretary of State for his statement this afternoon? I'll allow a few moments afternoon? I'll allow a few moments for the front benches to swap over. And that brings us to a statement on the Middle East from the Foreign
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Yvette Cooper Portrait Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, Foreign Secretary, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)
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Update the House on the conflict in the Middle East. we have. Seen Iran fire over 900 missiles and over 3000 drones across 13 countries in the region, across countries which are partners with the UK and where hundreds of thousands of British citizens visit, work or live. Regional air defences have intercepted the vast majority of Iranian strikes. But in recent days we have seen damage to oil export infrastructure, gas facilities, ports and airports and restrictions on the Strait of Hormuz with major consequences for the global economy and impacting on the UK economy too.

US and Israeli strikes across Iran are continuing. We have also seen attacks from Iranian proxy groups and troubling escalation in Lebanon and the UK is continuing our support for British nationals in the region. Our defensive military support for partners against Iranian strikes, and our intensive diplomatic activity on both security and economic issues in the UK. National interest in Riyadh. A few days ago, I saw the work to get British nationals home from across the region, saw how we are working to protect our people and our partners, and I stressed the UK's support and solidarity as I met with counterparts from across the Gulf and over the last week alone, I have held discussions with my counterparts from all six nations in the Gulf Cooperation Council with the US, Israel, key European allies and other regional partners.

We want to see the swiftest possible resolution of this crisis that brings security and stability back to the region, stops Iran's threats to its neighbours and their efforts to hijack the global economy. These events in the Middle East have consequences around the world and affect our security and our prosperity here in the UK. So our response is based on clear principles and calm leadership. We will support UK households under pressure. We will protect our people in the region.

We will defend our allies under attack. And as the Prime Minister said yesterday, we will not be drawn into a wider war, nor will we outsource our foreign policy. Our decisions will be based on UK values and the UK national interest. Madam Deputy Speaker, Let me update the House on support for British nationals in the region. On the outset of this crisis, more than 300,000 British citizens were in the region and when the airstrikes, airstrikes started and airspace closed, many were stuck and we've been working relentlessly since then to help them get home.

This has been a complex task. Our 24 over seven Crisis Response Centre, working with our embassies, partner governments and the rapid deployment teams we sent to operate on the ground. And we have worked closely with airlines. We've laid on additional government charter flights from Muscat and from Dubai. And we estimate now that the number of British nationals who will have flown back from the region since the start of the war will today reach 100,000. We continue to monitor the situation to provide the latest advice, but I want to put on record my sincere thanks to all of those involved in tireless efforts to support British nationals abroad, and to bring British citizens home.

Madam Deputy Speaker turning to conflict itself as the Prime Minister set out to Parliament, we took the decision not to be involved in the initial US strikes or to join any offensive operations. We have taken a different position on this to the US and Israel based on what is in the UK national interest. When Iran began began to target other countries across the region, putting our partners and citizens in danger, we took the further decision to support defensive action. And in Saudi Arabia, I've seen the air defences that the British Army is helping to operate on countering drones, and we discussed additional defence assets that were pre-deployed by my hon.

Friend the Defence Secretary to the region before the conflict began, and we have increased support since we have jets operating from sovereign base areas on Cyprus eight in Qatar, including the joint UK Qatari Squadron and as I speak, British Typhoons and F-35s are flying in defence of the Eastern Mediterranean and across Jordan, Bahrain, Qatar, the UAE and Iraq. The UK's defensive military action is supporting the wider region with four extra typhoons, three Wildcat helicopters and a Merlin helicopter already deployed.

And we are increasing our naval presence in the Eastern Mediterranean. As HMS Dragon and Lyme Bay approach. As the House is aware, we have given permission for US forces to use long standing basing at RAF Fairford and Diego Garcia to support defensive strikes against the ballistic missiles that are targeting the Gulf. But let me confirm again the point the Prime Minister made last week that our Cyprus base is not being used in those US operations. We want to see an end to this war as quickly as possible.

The longer it goes on, the more dangerous the situation becomes and the more pressure on the cost of living here at home. Iran's capabilities have been massively degraded, but this conflict has confirmed the threat the regime poses through its weapons and its proxies. And why, for so long, there has been international determination that Iran should never be able to develop nuclear weapons. So as this conflict eases or ends, we will need some form of negotiated agreement to contain and constrain those threats for the future from ballistic missiles, drones, proxies and its nuclear program, and to safeguard international shipping.

In the last seven days, we've seen Iran particularly focus their strikes on economic infrastructure in the Gulf. Oil fields, in Saudi ports in Oman, strikes against commercial ships from Thailand and Malta, threatened mines in the Strait of Hormuz. Iran is seeking to hijack the global economy, holding hostage supplies of oil, gas and fertiliser, affecting prices and supply chains across the globe and threatening the cost of living here at home, causing real worry for our constituents across the country. That is why the Prime Minister laid out yesterday how this government will stand up for working people here in Britain, including providing support for households with heating oil costs and maintaining the energy price cut and cap.

Last week we joined 31 other countries in the biggest coordinated release of oil in the IEA's history, while maintaining our economic pressure and sanctions on Russia. Because as we welcome President Zelensky to London today, we are determined that war in the Gulf must not become a windfall for Putin as we continue to stand with Ukraine. Reopening the Strait of Hormuz is vital for market stability and the cost of living for British households. But as the Prime Minister has said, this is a serious and complex issue and there is no easy fix.

So we are discussing this with international partners in Europe, Asia Gulf Partners and the US. These discussions are separate from the conflict itself, as the US itself has said, because countries from around the world have been clear, they do not want to see escalation or be drawn into a wider conflict. But they do want to see the strait open and functioning, and they do not want to see the fundamental principle of freedom of navigation undermined. And because it's an international shipping lane, multiple nations need to be involved in planning the way forward, and our discussions will continue to reflect serious, expert military and commercial assessments about what is credible and feasible so that commercial shipping can return as soon as possible as the conflict subsides.

Madam Deputy Speaker, Let me turn to Lebanon, where I'm extremely concerned. The country is on the precipice of a widening conflict that risks disastrous humanitarian consequences. In recent days, I have spoken to the Lebanese Prime Minister, the Israeli foreign Minister, as well as held discussions with the US, France and other European and Gulf partners. We need urgent diplomatic action to avert further escalation, but amid that danger, it is possible there is also a moment of diplomatic opportunity and we must bring all support and pressure to bear so it is seized and not squandered.

So let me set out the UK position first. We condemn the appalling attacks by Lebanese Hezbollah, who have fired hundreds of rockets at northern Israel. This must cease immediately. The actions of this proscribed terrorist group, at the instigation of the Iranian regime, are once again drawing the people of Lebanon into a conflict they do not want and which is not in their interests. Second, we support the sovereignty of Lebanon, Lebanon. We welcome the commitments made by the Lebanese government, including the significant decision to ban Hezbollah's military activities, and we will continue to support the Lebanese armed forces because they are not Hezbollah are the sole legitimate defender of Lebanon.

Third, we are extremely worried about the civilian consequences of current Israeli operations, with an estimated 1000 people killed and 1 in 7 Lebanese civilians reportedly displaced from their homes, this scale of humanitarian displacement is unacceptable and risks devastating consequences. So this weekend, I announced the UK would provide an additional £5 million essential humanitarian aid. Today, I can announce a further £10 million of humanitarian support to provide emergency medical care, shelter and other life saving assistance in Lebanon and the region to help prevent further displacement and instability that would risk escalating the regional problems with wider impact on other countries beyond the region, too.

And fourth, we believe diplomatic progress can be made as there is a shared interest across both Lebanon and Israel in seeing an end to the Hezbollah threats and ensuring peace and stability return, both the Lebanese government and the Israeli government have expressed an interest in joint talks. We strongly support this path and the framework exists in Security Council Resolution 1701, which prevents the provides the best route to lasting peace and security and stability beyond the region to. The UK stands ready to provide diplomatic support to this process.

Madam Deputy Speaker, this conflict in the Middle East is affecting countries across the region and across the world. Global events impacting our security and our economy here at home. And this government is resolute in our determination to protect the safety, security and prosperity of British people and partners pursuing the swiftest possible resolution to the conflict, security and stability in the national interest of the United Kingdom. I commend this statement to the House.
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Priti Patel Portrait Rt Hon Priti Patel MP (Witham, Conservative)
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Shadow Foreign Secretary. >> Priti Patel. >> Madam Deputy Speaker. >> On behalf of this. >> Side of the House, I want. >> To put on record. Our thanks.

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To put on record. Our thanks. To our brave armed. Forces who are in the region and to those en route, and thanks to the diplomatic route, and thanks to the diplomatic and consular staff for all their efforts to support the quarter of a million British nationals in the region, we thank our GCC allies for their care in hosting thousands of British nationals who've returned home via their commercial carriers, Emirates and Etihad, through the air corridor that they secured. British nationals in the region are assets and interests, and our allies continue to be on the receiving end of the indiscriminate targeting by Iran's despotic regime.

As our friends in the GCC have said, that regime has pursued a nuclear weapon and ballistic missile program. It sponsors terrorist proxies whose destabilising activities across the region and interference in their domestic affairs of state have threatened us all. The world would be a safer place, free from the tyrants of Tehran. While Iran attacks our military bases, targets British nationals and holds Lindsay and Craig Forman captive and indiscriminately fires missiles and drones on their neighbours, we cannot stay silent or inactive, the UAE's Minister of Internal Cooperation, Her Excellency Reem Al-hashemi, has called Iran's actions unhinged.

Our friends in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia rightly stated that Iran must stop the attacks on economic infrastructure. We have consistently called on the government to work closely with our friends in the Gulf. We must back them in their attempts to safeguard their regional airspace, the freedom of navigation and the economic and national security of our allies. Given the concerns they raised in recent weeks, can the Foreign Secretary confirm what assurances and confidence she gave our friends in the Gulf of the depth and reliability of our support to them? What specific commitments did she make to them to better protect our bases and allies in the region? The way in which our friends and close security partners who host British armed forces have been subject to outrageous, unprovoked aggression has been painful to watch.

Britain cannot stand by while our allies do the heavy lifting to protect us all. Take Bahrain, for example, with whom we've signed the agreement in 2024. I'm yet to receive a substantive answer from the government about how we are mobilising the agreement to better protect our ally, our naval base near Manama. What commitments did she give to ensure that British assets will be made available to help bolster our allies defences? Will minehunter vessels be returning to our base in Bahrain? And will a destroyer which can take down projectiles be in the region? What discussions has she's had with Israeli Ministers on the Iranian backed terrorist organisation Hezbollah, whose actions are undermining regional stability and the Lebanese government, and causing terrible hardship for both the Lebanese and Israeli people.

Can she advise the House on any actions the British government is taking to support practical efforts to see Hezbollah disarm? And what is her assessment of the capacity of the Lebanese armed forces to deal with this threat? Earlier this month, the Minister for the Middle East summoned Iran's terrorist representative in London. What was discussed? Will she summon him again? Has she held any direct discussions with her Iranian counterpart, as well as threatening regional security, the IRGC threatens our homeland. They have been a designated.

They've been designated a terrorist organisation by every corner of the world the United States, the European Union, many members of the GCC and our Commonwealth partner. Canada. At this time of war, why does the UK diverge from the rest of the world? What leverage over Iran is the government exacting for this position that is taken not to act? If the government brings forward legislation to prescribe, the IRGC will stand ready to work with them. And this also applies to the source of funding off the Iranian regime.

What steps has she taken with our partners to cut off the financial flows that fund the Iranian regime through their internet, through the international financial system? Will the Foreign Secretary, who is referred to a conversation with Secretary Rubio, can she confirm that Britain is being kept informed of US actions, both militarily and diplomatically? What kind of agreement on Iran's nuclear program would she find acceptable, given the government's preference for a negotiated settlement? What is her assessment on the international efforts to reopen the Strait of Hormuz? And I say that following the Prime Minister's statement yesterday about a new viable collective plan.

What are the details of this plan? Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, Iran's close friend Putin must not profit from this conflict in the Middle East. What is the coalition of the will in doing to collapse Putin's financial flows, make the shadow fleet unviable and stop those refineries in India, China and Turkey from buying Russian crude oil and funding Putin's assault on Ukraine? Will she also join me and commending our Ukrainian friends for their support of our Gulf allies when they themselves are under constant attack? Madam Deputy Speaker, this is a consequential moment for the world and strong and consistent British leadership is required.
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Yvette Cooper Portrait Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, Foreign Secretary, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)
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Foreign Secretary, can I thank the Shadow Foreign Secretary for the Shadow Foreign Secretary for her questions? And let me take each of these in turn. So not only are we working immensely closely with our Gulf colleagues and partners, we are also providing them with direct military defensive support, including on our F-35s and typhoons are in operation over the region and including taking action, including against drones, including providing the basing support against the ballistic launchers and missiles that are targeted at the Gulf as well.

And we continue to work closely with them, including looking to the future on how we can also support them with the latest drone Anti-drone technology, learning from the experiences that the Ukraine has had as well. We also on the issue around Lebanon and the threat from the terrorist group Lebanese Hezbollah. I have indeed had discussions about this with both the Israeli government and the Lebanese government, because the threat from this Iranian backed organisation is clear. It is exposed in the way in which they have responded in recent weeks once more that they do the bidding of the Iranian regime.

They do not do anything to stand up for the Lebanese people. On the issue about the IRGC, I would just gently point out to her that she was Home Secretary for some time and did not introduce the legislation that I believe is necessary in order to address some of the wider security issues. But we do continue to fully sanction not just the IRGC, but much more widely across the Iranian system to keep up the pressure alongside our allies and alongside the defensive military operations that are in place.

Iran cannot be allowed to develop uranium to develop nuclear weapons. That would be a threat not just to the region, but to the world. It is why I, alongside my French and German foreign Minister counterparts, have led the work to ensure that we could trigger the snapback response to reintroduce sanctions on the Iranian regime. Back in October, before this conflict started, and will need to keep the focus on preventing not just the nuclear threat but also the ballistic, the proxy threat and the threat to the Strait of Hormuz as well.

The issues around the strait are complex. That is the reality. And that is why we need to ensure that we are guided by the military and commercial expertise, but also ensure that planning is in place, drawing together countries from across the world because there is international interest in the strait, and that is what we will continue to do as well. And then finally, the point that she raised about Russia and Ukraine, I could not agree with her more on this, that Russia cannot be allowed and Putin cannot be allowed to benefit from this crisis.

We have seen long standing links between Russia and Iran and the threats that both countries pose. And on a day when we have President Zelensky in London and we welcome him to London and we continue our steadfast. And I believe, cross-party support for Ukraine, that support must continue because we know that Ukraine's security is our security.
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Calum Miller Portrait Calum Miller MP (Bicester and Woodstock, Liberal Democrat)
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Liberal Democrat spokesperson Calum Miller. Calum Miller. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and to the Secretary of State for advance sight of her statement. advance sight of her statement. Trump's and Netanyahu's war cheered on uncritically by reform and the Conservatives, has put our citizens and troops in the region under immediate threat from Iran's reckless retaliation and worsened the cost of living crisis for households here in the UK, the government's first priority must be to protect our citizens, troops and our allies facing unprovoked attacks.

They must also take action on the huge cost increases here at home. And I wish to put on record my party's thanks to our brave service personnel for their work to keep our citizens safe. Madam Deputy Speaker, we also now face the possibility of another major escalation. Reports suggest that an IDF ground invasion of Lebanon is imminent. Hezbollah is a brutal terror organisation and must be disarmed, but that must be achieved by working with leaders in Beirut and through international organisations.

So can the Foreign Secretary tell me what further steps she will take to pressure the Netanyahu government to seek its devastating strikes on Lebanon, and pull back from plans for a ground offensive can? She also set out what new steps the government is taking to halt and reverse the expansion of illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank? The IRGC is also a terrorist organisation. It should also be prescribed here in the UK. Can the Foreign Secretary explain to the House why she has still not done this? We know that UK bases have now been used by the US to conduct strikes in Iran.

The Prime Minister told this House that those strikes would only be defensive. To assure the House of this, it is crucial that the UK monitors the outcomes of US actions. So can the Foreign Secretary confirm whether the government has been supplied with that information by US forces? And if not, can she confirm whether the government has asked for it? Madam Speaker, it was wholly predictable that Iran would retaliate by closing the Strait of Hormuz. Donald Trump has now made a shameless plea that NATO allies should clean up the mess he initiated.

Liberal Democrats are clear we cannot afford to be dragged by Trump into this costly foreign adventure. So can the Foreign Secretary confirm that the government will seek to secure an emergency resolution from the UN Security Council, calling for a multilateral approach to reopening the Strait of Hormuz? And will she commit to bringing a vote to this House before any UK forces are sent to operate in the strait?
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Yvette Cooper Portrait Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, Foreign Secretary, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)
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Foreign Secretary. >> Well, let me say a few points to the hon. Member on Lebanon. I think the as I've made clear in my the as I've made clear in my statement, the threat from Lebanese Hezbollah is a serious one. This is a terrorist organisation that is doing the bidding of the Iranian regime, not standing up for the Lebanese people. There is a shared interest between the Israeli government and the Lebanese government against Hezbollah, and there is an opportunity for diplomatic talks and discussions between those two governments, which we want to support, and we would urge Israel to support those talks and that processes, and not to pursue the huge displacement of civilians that we have seen with the humanitarian consequences, because what we want to see is a shared set of operations against Hezbollah and to support the Lebanese armed forces on that as well.

Then, more widely, the hon. Member is right to recognise the support for our armed forces and the work that they are doing to secure the safety, not just of British citizens who are in the region, but our partners and also the wider energy, infrastructure and economic infrastructure as well. We say to him on the Strait of Hormuz, the focus at the moment is on what the practical measures might be to ensure that shipping can be restored as the conflict subsides, and that Iran cannot continue with a long term ability to hold hostage the global economy in something that affects us here at home.
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Paul Waugh Portrait Paul Waugh MP (Rochdale, Labour )
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Paul Waugh you, Madam Deputy Speaker, can I thank the Foreign Secretary for confirming today that British foreign policy is being decided by this British government and not being outsourced to either Washington or Tel Aviv? At the weekend, though, Israeli police killed two young Palestinian brothers and their parents in the occupied West Bank, shooting all four in the head and face as the family returned from a Ramadan shopping trip. Muhammad was five, Uthman was seven. He was blind and had special needs and their mother and father.

They were driving from their home to the hometown of Tessa Munt late on Saturday when Israeli forces opened fire. 11 year old Khalid, who survived the shooting, told Reuters that Israeli police had dragged him out of the car, said we killed dogs. Doesn't this show the need for the UK to take tough action against Israel? On the expansion of the legal settlements in the West Bank, and wider, wider crimes being committed by settlers in the West Bank. Right.

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Well, I would say to my hon. Friend, I know that the the case that he describes is deeply that he describes is deeply disturbing, and the. It is disturbing, and the. It is essential that all governments follow international law, maintain follow international law, maintain international standards around human rights and civilian protection. And the case he describes is extremely distressing and obviously needs full investigation.
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Kit Malthouse Portrait Rt Hon Kit Malthouse MP (North West Hampshire, Conservative)
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almost completely is the same as passages that were said about Gaza at the start of that conflict. at the start of that conflict. We're very concerned with making protests to the Israelis. We're protests to the Israelis. We're sending some aid, but there's really nothing that we can do. So I have three questions. First of all, have three questions. First of all, we've been supporting the Lebanese armed forces for many years now. So do we believe that the Lebanese do we believe that the Lebanese have a right to self-defence? And if they do, how are we going to support them in defence of their civilian population? Secondly, what is she going to do to prevent Lebanon becoming a new Gaza? A phrase that has been used by Israeli officials about this conflict.

And if she's not willing to do either of those things, how many Lebanese is an acceptable number for us to see killed over

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the next few weeks? Well, I.

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Well, I. Would say to the hon. Member, it is because of the immense scale of is because of the immense scale of risks and what are already the horrendous humanitarian consequences in Lebanon that I've consequences in Lebanon that I've spoken directly, both to the Lebanese Prime Minister and the Israeli foreign Minister in recent Israeli foreign Minister in recent days about exactly this. And it's also why we have identified the interest that has now been shown. It's really important the steps that the Lebanese government have taken to propose direct talks.

It's essential that the Israeli government should support those and
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Simon Hoare Portrait Simon Hoare MP (North Dorset, Conservative)
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and erratic ally and partner, and therefore the UK is right to be strategically questioning and strategically questioning and sceptical about both his pronouncements and his motives. Because I also echo what many Because I also echo what many people across the House have said, that whilst we remain sceptical and questioning, that should not be an questioning, that should not be an excuse for sitting idly by, wringing our hands with earnest wringing our hands with earnest words but no action in support of humanitarian aid and safeguarding the safety and the lives of ordinary Lebanese and Palestinians and the West Bank.

Because to sit

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and do nothing is as culpable as the guilty. And well.

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And well. We say to the hon. Member that our relationship with the US on security, on the economy is very long and deep, deep and long long and deep, deep and long standing. And I was first briefed on our security cooperation as a member of the Intelligence and member of the Intelligence and Security Committee more than 25 years ago. It has strengthened and deepened since, and our focus needs to be on the substance of that relationship and the real issues, not on rhetoric or statements.

I think that is immensely important, and it is because we take seriously the humanitarian issues that we are now providing 15 million of humanitarian support for Lebanon humanitarian support for Lebanon and raising the issue of Lebanon, not just with the Israeli not just with the Israeli government and the talking to the Lebanese Prime Minister, but also raising it with the US, with European partners and other Gulf European partners and other Gulf partners as well.
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Yvette Cooper Portrait Rt Hon Yvette Cooper MP, Foreign Secretary, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Pontefract, Castleford and Knottingley, Labour)
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those initial strikes, and also countries where 300,000 British countries where 300,000 British citizens were either visiting or resident, and where we've seen resident, and where we've seen strikes on hotels as well as strikes on energy and civilian infrastructure, were there to be a infrastructure, were there to be a strike against those those hotels strike against those those hotels and things in places across the Gulf and the UK had done nothing when we had the ability to take out the missiles and the drones that are in the air, I think people would not have found that extremely difficult to understand.



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Jonathan Davies Madam. Deputy Speaker, I thank the Foreign Secretary for a wide ranging statement, including the ranging statement, including the support that she outlined to protect British nationals in the region to ensure that humanitarian region to ensure that humanitarian aid is getting into Lebanon, and also for the efforts which are going to wards, ensuring that going to wards, ensuring that British consumers with heating oil are protected from price rises. There is over 1500 properties in my There is over 1500 properties in my constituency dependent on that.

But can I ask specifically about Iran? Iran has been a threat to the UK around the world. To many of our partners, destabilising force directly for very many decades. So is it her assessment now that whatever the circumstances of how this war came circumstances of how this war came about, that we have an opportunity to permanently de-escalate and neutralise that threat so that the whole world can benefit from a more whole world can benefit from a more peaceful circumstances. Without Iran.
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None Portrait Ministerial statement: Youth Employment
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has historically high levels of employment overall. In their most
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Pat McFadden Portrait Rt Hon Pat McFadden MP, The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Wolverhampton South East, Labour)
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employment overall. In their most recent report, the OBR said that the employment level would rise the employment level would rise from 2026 in every year of the forecast, and the unemployment forecast, and the unemployment would peak this year and fall in every year of the forecast. After that, there are, in fact, only two peacetime years in the past 150, when the employment rate has been higher than 2025. But there is a particular and long term issue facing the young, and it is time that young people were offered more hope and opportunity.

And that is what the package that we are bringing forward will do. The number of young people not in education, employment or training is much too high at almost a million. Now the party opposite tries to claim that this is all a result of decisions taken over the past two years. But the truth is, we're just. In fact, we just heard them claiming it right there. But the truth is that the number of young people not in employment, education or training rose by 250,000 in the three years running up to the last election, and they did precisely nothing about it.

Youth unemployment has been rising since 2022, and in their whole 14 years in power, youth employment levels never reached their pre-financial crash levels in any single year in which they held office. So not only that, but the party opposite also kicked away the ladder of opportunity from young people when they presided over a shocking 40% fall in youth apprenticeship stats over the past decade. So the problem? The problem is long term and deep rooted, and we are going to back young people with more youth apprenticeships, more chance of getting a job and more help in overcoming the challenges that they face.

We have already announced a Youth Guarantee to help the young unemployed that involves intensive work, coaching 300,000 work experience and training places and subsidised work for the long term unemployed aged 18 to 21. But now we are going much further with an explicitly pro young people package aimed at helping them learn and earn. From this summer, we will introduce hiring bonuses for businesses. If they hire a young person who has been out of work for six months, this bonus will be worth £3,000 per young person.

There will also be bonuses of £2,000 for small and medium sized businesses, hiring young apprentices, and both of these bonuses can be combined if the young person hired has been out of work for six months or more. What a contrast to the record of the party opposite on apprenticeships, which was to take away opportunity from young people and we are introducing. They don't like to hear it, but I am going to continue and we are introducing new foundation apprenticeships in retail and hospitality, new short courses in AI, electric vehicle charging point installation, electric fitting and assembly, mechanical fitting and assembly, modular building, solar PV installation and welding.

The skills that young people need for the future. And on top of that, the Jobs Guarantee, which we previously announced for the long term unemployed, will be extended to those aged 22 to 24, and those young people will get six months of paid work at 25 hours a week at minimum wage rates. Altogether, this will create some 200,000 jobs and apprenticeship opportunities over the next three years. This is our new deal for new times, offering new hope to the young people so often disparaged by the party opposite as shirkers and scroungers.

While our message to young people is different, it is that we back you. We believe in you and we want you to succeed. And the package I have announced today is new investment of about £1 billion, and it comes on top of the funding that we announced at the Budget. Taken together, this is a package of support for young people worth around £2.5 billion, and the existing exemption from employers National insurance contributions for workers under 21 will stay in place.

This is a package which is not just pro young people but pro-business too, and that is why I welcome the Federation of Small Business comment that says this is a game changer and a decisive move forward. They rightly described the package as pro-jobs and pro opportunity, and it has also been welcomed by large employers like Amazon, Kier Group and PwC. And the welcome for this goes beyond business because we know that a lot of young people face challenges in the labour market and the chief executive of Mental Health UK, Brian Dow, said.

This will, and I quote, support young people to be ready for work and help organisations, large and small to capitalise on the skills, talents and enthusiasm that young people have to offer. And on top of the package, there is an urgency in offering help to young people now because with technological change and demographic change, they need our help and we cannot afford to lose their talent and energy. So this is not just about young people, it is about their parents and grandparents, too.

This is a generational challenge because who doesn't want their child or grandchild to have a better chance in life? And that is why investment in the young is a bond between the generations. It is an act of solidarity which is in the interests of the whole country, because the scarring effects of prolonged periods out of work when you're young can stay with you for the rest of your life. A young person under the age of 25 on the health element of Universal Credit is now less likely to get a job than someone over 55 on the same benefit.

And we have to act to change this. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am often asked, so when will you do welfare reform? Well, let me tell the House this is welfare reform. Putting work and opportunity at the heart of our system is the best reform we can make, asking not just what are you entitled to, but how can we help you change your life? Is the change that the system needs. And it is that view which lies behind the changes that I am announcing with this package.

And I commend this statement to the House.

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Secretary of State. Helen Whately thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker.

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Deputy Speaker. The government has lost control of welfare. The benefits bill is ballooning. Sickness benefits alone ballooning. Sickness benefits alone will cost us £109 billion by the end of the decade. Working age end of the decade. Working age benefits are costing £161 billion right now and rising. But instead of bringing forward welfare savings, Labour MPs have chosen to spend ever more on benefits. Just the other day, they backed an extra 3 billion spending on scrapping the two child benefit cap all paid for, all paid for, all paid for in the all paid for, all paid for in the same way.

Paid for by taxpayers, by hard working people, by the businesses who employ them. First they tax jobs and then they wonder why there are fewer of them. Let me why there are fewer of them. Let me tell them if you tax it, you get less of it.
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Helen Whately Portrait Helen Whately MP (Faversham and Mid Kent, Conservative)
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Exactly. gone up month after month. Youth unemployment now rivals Greece at over 16%. That's 1 in 6 young people out of work wanting unemployment but denied the chance. And a university degree won't save them either. 700,000 graduates are out of work, and nearly 1 million young people are not in education, employment or training. So many young people have done everything asked of them, studied hard, done their exams, got their grades. But now they are getting rejection after rejection to their job applications.

This government is letting down a whole generation. Yeah, and the Secretary of State knows it. He said so himself. This week on the radio, he talked about the scarring effects of youth unemployment, worse mental health, worse outcomes, even lower life expectancy. And that he's right. So why is his government making it so much worse? Because let's be clear about what this new policy is. It is not a jobs plan or a serious new deal for young people. It is a sticking plaster and an expensive one costing over £1 billion state

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subsidised jobs to replace the real ones that Labour have killed. Exactly. And the Secretary of State has

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And the Secretary of State has laid into our record on apprenticeships. But he knows perfectly well that the drop he refers to happened because we raised the standards of apprenticeships to make them a qualification that would actually qualification that would actually count and to make them a meaningful alternative to university, not just a way for businesses to get cheaper workers. So I warn him in his reforms, not just to chase higher numbers, quality matters. And why are they doing nothing about dead end degrees and mounting student debt? Why not adopt our policy of cutting back on low value degrees and use that saving to increase apprenticeships? The policy we have announced.

But no, this

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government's answer is to just go back, cap in hand, to the taxpayer. Yeah, exactly.

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Yeah, exactly. Now, at the end of his statement, the right hon. Gentleman talked about welfare reform. But why do we never hear the important word savings? Yes, I think we know why they tried and failed to make welfare savings last summer. What's changed since then? The Prime changed since then? The Prime Minister is only weaker and more indecisive, though the problem becomes ever more urgent. Today's PIP figures show that claims are up again. There are over 300,000 more people on PIP since Labour took over, a rise of 9% and young people claiming PIP has risen by 14%.

There are nearly 150 100,000 more people claiming benefits for mental health and neurodiversity. I've been clear this can't go on. Benefits are not the right answer. Work is better for you. People who can work should work. Now. The Secretary of State needs to answer some questions. This extra billion he's just announced for state funded jobs. Where exactly is that money coming from? Will this latest plan actually bring down youth unemployment? And by how much will it even touch the sides? How will he stop fraudulent claims on this cash? How will he make sure that no one loses their job because of his cash handouts? How will he make sure all this spending actually makes a difference rather than subsidising employment? That would have happened anyway.

And does he accept that taxing jobs on the one hand, and then subsidising them on the other is not an economic strategy. It's the economics of the madhouse. And finally, on the benefits bill, can he at least agree with me that the benefits bill needs to come down? Perhaps he could take the chance of using the word savings. Does he see the irony? Feel my deja vu of another plan for welfare reform from his party that actually spends more money rather than saves it? When will he bring forward a plan which will actually bring down the benefits bill? And when he talks about welfare reform, is this it?

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. A statement from the hon. Lady that I fear was written without I fear was written without listening to a word that was in the statement. The Wrekin forward. What statement. The Wrekin forward. What she has confirmed today is that the party opposite not only bequeathed us the problem, but that they have us the problem, but that they have learnt nothing about how to tackle it. No statement of responsibility, it. No statement of responsibility, no statement of regret, no apology for the record on youth apprenticeships.

In fact, she
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Pat McFadden Portrait Rt Hon Pat McFadden MP, The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Wolverhampton South East, Labour)
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defended cutting the youth apprenticeship starts just a continued pretence that somehow all continued pretence that somehow all of this just started two years ago. She asks where the funding comes from to help young people. The from to help young people. The funding comes from stable management of the economy, something that they know nothing about and something that we have about and something that we have practised for the past two years. And young people, young people to And young people, young people to whom all of this is aimed, will have heard her today disparage efforts to get them into work and to give them more opportunity.

They will have heard her dismiss our changes to boost youth apprenticeships. They will have heard her pretend that you can somehow wish all this away, with tax changes proving they have learnt nothing from their disastrous management of the economy, they will have heard her say that this does not offer young people anything. When we have announced a plan to give young people a new deal with more jobs and more apprenticeships, and that is the difference between our approach and theirs. I want to give young people in this country opportunities to get skills, to get a job, to get off benefits and to build a better life for themselves.

That is much better than kicking the ladder away and leaving the system unchanged, which is what they did. So how does she explain that the number of NEETs rose by quarter of a million in the last three years in which they were in power? How does she explain their lack of action in dealing with this? And when it comes to welfare, what I have said today is very clear and very simple, that the best means of welfare reform is to put work and opportunity at the heart of the system, and that is what we are doing with this.



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Claire Young David Baines. Mr Speaker. Young people often get unfairly

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criticised, and it's worth them. Are in. Employment, education or training and those that aren't deserve our support and opportunity, not condemnation and ignorance, which is all we got from the which is all we got from the Conservatives in government and all we've heard from them today. Will the Secretary of State agree with the Secretary of State agree with me that the number of young people not in employment, education and training is a scandal. It demands action. And can he set out how these.

This new investment will support young people in St Helens North and across the country.
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Steve Darling Portrait Steve Darling MP (Torbay, Liberal Democrat)
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of the problem, which is the n I c hike, it's just papering over the cracks. And I would like to pay cracks. And I would like to pay tribute to organisations that get young people in the right place, young people in the right place, because I know the childhood that many young people are coming through. The system now is massively different to many of ours. Experience of childhood that we grow up some some years ago, and grow up some some years ago, and I'd like to pay tribute to organisations like Eat That Frog, Doorstep Arts, Sound Communities and South Devon College who do incredible work helping young people who've come through the pandemic, helping young people who've got that pressure cooker of social media gnawing away at their lives, but also having the cost of living crisis gnawing away at them.

And there is an element to this that I and Liberal Democrat colleagues are concerned about and really don't understand, and that is the removal of funding for apprenticeships, for management, because surely those managers are the people who are there to support these young people in their hour of need as they go into work. But also it's an an aspiration for those young people to move on to those positions eventually. So I would say to the Secretary of State, can you please think again about the impact of the National Insurance hike on our hospitality, our retail and our tourism industry in areas like mine in Torbay? And I was really interested to hear the Secretary of State on Monday on the today show, where he was challenged, and it appeared that the it appeared that the presenter suggested to him that that the Nysc hike had up youth unemployment and the Secretary appeared to agree to this.

But finally, I would also highlight a times article that suggests that the government are thinking of making young people second class citizens by changing to disability benefits, and some comments from the Secretary of State would be welcome. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and let me thank the hon. Gentleman and let me thank the hon. Gentleman for his questions. He opposes the changes we made on National Insurance, but he neglects to Insurance, but he neglects to mention that there are no employers National Insurance contributions required for employees under the required for employees under the age of 21, unless they're earning more than £50,000 a year. He also, of course, opposes these changes of course, opposes these changes while supporting extra expenditure on the NHS.

And I said to him a few
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Pat McFadden Portrait Rt Hon Pat McFadden MP, The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Wolverhampton South East, Labour)
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times, if his party wants to support extra expenditure and they really have to support revenue raising measures to fund that extra expenditure, so young people will have heard him dismiss these changes today, and in fact, they changes today, and in fact, they will have heard him say that when asked to choose between management courses or young people, he would courses or young people, he would choose management courses. That is now the established position of the party opposite. I think many people party opposite.

I think many people would be surprised to hear that in some years, most apprenticeship expenditure goes on those over the age of 25 who are already in work. We have made a choice. We have chosen young people. We have done it for good reasons. We have done it because of the scarring effects of youth unemployment, which I set out in my statement. And we now have on record both the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats opposed to our prioritisation, our prioritisation of young people.



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Rushanara Ali thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I welcome this Deputy Speaker. I welcome this excellent initiative with the backing of £2.5 billion of investment, and commend the investment, and commend the Secretary of State for trying to get a grip on the scourge of youth unemployment. We saw in the unemployment. We saw in the previous government a generation lost because of the failures of supporting young people. Can I ask supporting young people. Can I ask the Secretary of State what he will do to support disabled young people? Because of the backlog and delays with access to work support, which is a real issue? And can he say more about what charities and social enterprises can do and how they'll be supported, as well as they'll be supported, as well as the public sector, to get more young people who are needs into work? work?
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Iain Duncan Smith Portrait Rt Hon Sir Iain Duncan Smith MP (Chingford and Woodford Green, Conservative)
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didn't cost the government any money because it was payment by results. And I suggest when he goes back to the delivery, he has a look back to the delivery, he has a look at that. That's focussed on the longer term older people that moves them through the jobs. The second point is a criticism of National Insurance. It's not his decision, I recognise this, it comes from the Treasury endlessly. You will have Treasury endlessly. You will have disputes with the Treasury, but the Treasury in in lowering that threshold.

Yes. It doesn't apply to threshold. Yes. It doesn't apply to those under 21. But what it does do put a block in the system because then the risks to those who want to hire the younger people are at the same time blocking off older people coming into work for that same reason. And I would suggest to him, he says, let's do a proper setup so we understand we've got to get the

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older people into work and the younger people, not just the younger people. Secretary of State thank you,

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Secretary of State thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I have a lot of respect for the right hon. Gentleman. I walk past his picture Gentleman. I walk past his picture every morning. He he was responsible for a major reform to responsible for a major reform to the welfare system. With the introduction of Universal Credit. But after that, his party stopped But after that, his party stopped reforming the system and that we are seeing the cost of that, particularly with what has happened in the last few years on the work program.

I'm, of course, happy to look at any successful program to help people into work. We have more than one of these in the department,
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Pat McFadden Portrait Rt Hon Pat McFadden MP, The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Wolverhampton South East, Labour)
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think we do need to help young people and support them through this. And I think policy has to catch up with the discussion that is taking place among young people themselves, because they're very alive to this, and they are alive to this, and they are evaluating their choices in terms of what they think is going to happen in the future of the labour happen in the future of the labour market and which jobs are going to be sustainable through this period of very significant technological change.



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change. Sarah Smith thank you, madam Mr Speaker. Before being elected to this place, I spent many years working for charities seeking to tackle the challenge of youth unemployment, and I remember fondly the Future Jobs Fund under the last Labour government that delivered real change for people across this country. I've established the gate Hyndburn working Group in Hyndburn to help tackle the challenge of economic inactivity there, and it would be really helpful if you can outline how today's announcements will support them in their endeavour to see young people and older people, of course, secure good employment and also if he in his.

As he brings forward. Further strategy around this issue, will pay particular attention to the pay particular attention to the importance of place and locally led decision making in order to tackle the specific challenges of the specific challenges of different parts of the country. As we seek to get everybody into a good job.
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John McDonnell Portrait Rt Hon John McDonnell MP (Hayes and Harlington, Labour)
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to surveil and collect information, investigate the journalists. Apco investigate the journalists. Apco produced a report that was then used in attempts to smear those two used in attempts to smear those two journalists, affecting their careers. After it was raised in the House, I was contacted by a journalist as well, and it was journalist as well, and it was indicated that Labour Together might have been collecting information not just on journalists but possibly on members of Parliament as well.

So I submitted a subject access report request to Labour Together. They've replied that it's a complex case and therefore it will be the three month deadline, not the month deadline. I also submitted a subject access report request to the US company, the agency Apco. I received a reply last night which confirmed that yes, they have been collecting information on me. They do not say why. They do not say who commissioned that work that they're undertaking. And then they gave me 11 pages of redacted, redacted pages, which are nonsensical, literally whole pages of redacted, possibly only 3 or 4 words on each page, usually just the name.

I'm concerned that we now have a situation which could be that an organisation and an agency is collecting information on members of Parliament. They don't know who for, they don't know for what purpose. But if it's anything like what they did to those two journalists, it was for smearing them and affecting their careers. I've called now on a number of occasions for an independent inquiry into the activities of Labour Together and Akiko, and through you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'd like to place that request on the record again for the government to consider the establishment of an

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independent inquiry into the activities of both these organisations. I thank the right hon. Member

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I thank the right hon. Member for notice of his point of order. It is not a matter for the chair, It is not a matter for the chair, but the right hon. Member has put his point on the record. If he has concerns about compliance with the concerns about compliance with the law, he may wish to consult the Information Commissioner. Point of order.

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order. Adnan Hussain Madam Deputy. Speaker, I seek your guidance on a matter that goes to the heart of the standards of this House and the safety and cohesion of the country we serve. Earlier today, the hon. Member, the Shadow Justice Secretary, made remarks about a peaceful and entirely lawful iftaar
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Adnan Hussain Portrait Mr Adnan Hussain MP (Blackburn, Independent)
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Muslim faith are unwelcome in our shared public spaces. Madam Deputy Speaker, Public spaces in this Speaker, Public spaces in this country, including Trafalgar Square, have long been places where people of all faiths and none come together. Muslims breaking their fast. Yes, and but also Sikhs, Hindus and Jews and many others, marking their traditions openly and proudly. That is not extremism, that is not domination. And that is the very expression of the plural democratic society we claim to defend, to single out one.

One minority community in this way is not only inconsistent with that tradition, it is deeply dangerous and inflammatory. Madam Deputy Speaker, Words from the from this House, from public officials do not exist in a vacuum. This. They can legitimise prejudice, embolden those who seek to divide our country and our society. This House has a duty to uphold respect, equality and the dignity of all communities. So I ask you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I ask you, what recourse is available when such rhetoric threatens not only the reputation of this House, but the

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safety and the cohesion of our communities in our country? Hey.

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Hey. I thank thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. This is not a matter for the chair, but the a matter for the chair, but the hon. Member has put his point on the record. Points of order. Point of order.

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of order. Richard Burgon thank you for allowing me to make this point of. Order, and. Apologies for not making you

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Apologies for not making you aware of it in advance, but I've just seen an email response from the private investigation organisation Apco in response to my subject access request, which says, and I quote, this has produced a large volume of data, and we therefore require additional time
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Catherine McKinnell Portrait Catherine McKinnell MP (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)
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bringing forward a bill to implement some of the findings of our recent Public Accounts Committee report on the costs of Committee report on the costs of clinical negligence. Horrified by the money spent on paying out for the money spent on paying out for failure rather than on improving care. When Amy Evans from Forest Hall walked into my constituency Hall walked into my constituency surgery, her story confirmed the urgency of this issue and the desperate need for change. Amy, a teaching assistant, is a truly inspirational young woman with unimaginable grace.

She told me about the heartbreaking loss of her daughter Seren, stillborn last year and the ongoing impact on her. She told me how the concerns she had raised about reduced movements in the days leading up to her due date were simply not listened to. The fourth time she raised it, after her due date had already passed, it was already too late. On top of being utterly devastated, she feels completely failed by the medical professionals who were supposed to be taking care of her and Seren.

Yet despite their grief, Amy and her partner Louis have shown remarkable courage, campaigning to raise awareness and encouraging pregnant mothers to trust their instincts. She succeeded in getting the hospital to review and change procedures, in the hope that no other mother will ever have to experience such heartbreak. But Amy is sadly far from alone. In recent years, failures at maternity units across the country have sadly returned to the spotlight. The Secretary of State was right to commission a national review led by Baroness Amos.

Her interim report, published last month, sets out a horrifying catalogue of failings, culture issues, weak leadership discrimination and a lack of transparency and accountability when things go wrong. And this lack of accountability is at the heart of the problem. Review after review have found families who feel ignored by hospitals left desperately seeking answers, and concerned that the same errors will just happen again. Rhiannon Davies and her husband Richard spent years calling for a review at Shrewsbury and Telford hospitals following the death of their daughter Kate, at just six hours old.

Their steadfast commitment to ensuring it could never happen again led to the Ockenden review, which concluded that failures had led to the death of over 200 babies at the trust. As Rhiannon said, all we wanted was the truth about why our daughter died. Instead, we faced years of denial. This theme of denial was front and centre of the review into Morecambe Bay NHS trust. One member of staff interviewed said as she left the room. Sometimes bad things happen in maternity. People just have to accept it.

How can any parent have faith that lessons will be learned with attitudes like that? In Doctor Kirkup's next review into failings at East Kent, one parent said every time at the hospital it always seemed like one person is covering up for the next. They're a team and they work together, but they shouldn't cover up when children are dying. As chair of the petitions committee in 2021, I led a debate on black maternal healthcare backed by 170,000 people calling for better care for black women who continue to receive disproportionately poor outcomes in maternity care.

And I recounted the story of a woman who said as soon as the second midwife was on shift, she just seemed to have one goal in mind, and that was delivering my baby as soon as possible. She didn't seem to care about easing any part of my pain, or reassuring me for the many worries I had at the time. She rushed my labour along and as a result, almost cost me my son's life. This is also personal for me. I had my own experience of poor care when in labour with my first child, despite being in significant pain, nauseous, vomiting.

What is broken? I was sent away from the hospital numerous times. When I was finally admitted I was a full emergency. My unborn baby with a failing heart rate, falling heart rate and in clear distress, both of us having endured 24 hours of unproductive, painful and dangerous back to back labour. I recalled afterwards that the midwives behaved more like nightclub bouncers than carers. One even said to me I think on the third time of being sent away, I know it's exciting having your first baby.

She clearly had never given birth. Fortunately, both my daughter and I came through the experience without lasting damage. But when I read the stories of parents who've experienced the worst, I can see how close we came. It's no surprise then, faced with issues around accountability, denial, and a lack of trust, so many parents have to pursue legal avenues to get their answers. When mothers feel they haven't been listened to, they hit a brick wall of NHS defensive culture. They have nowhere else to turn.

Maternity claims are the highest value negligence claims and can often involve babies born with catastrophic lifelong injuries. Yet the average birth injury claim in England takes six and a half years to conclude, during which parents are trapped, having to fight for the support their child needs. As the public accounts committees extensive inquiry found, other countries have shown a better, safer and more compassionate system is possible. New Zealand's automatic no fault scheme costs roughly half what England spends per capita. Japan Cerebral Palsy scheme combines compensation with a robust investigation and prevention program, improving care while reducing claims.

Sweden has a long standing no blame compensation scheme where cases are assessed on whether it was avoidable rather than proving negligence. This encourages transparency from clinicians and it's contributed to reduction in avoidable birth injuries. In Sweden, one baby fewer dies each day than in the UK and in Japan, that figure is two. So at the heart of this must be a willingness and an openness to seek answers and learn lessons. So healing can begin and care can improve. Which is why this bill calls for the incorporation of the lessons of existing maternity reviews, as well as asking the government to draw on the international best practice so that we can build a fairer, safer and more effective system in our NHS.

The Bill also reflects the further findings in the Public Accounts Committee report. The government's liability for clinical negligence claims has quadrupled over the last two decades and now stands at £60 billion. When it comes to maternity, it's truly shocking that we spend more on failure than we do on the care itself. Yeah, NHS resolution is working to resolve more claims without litigation and that is welcome. But it is far from enough. Take claims under £25,000 in value in 20 2425.

These cost the NHS £183 million, yet only £39 million. Just one in every £5 went to patients in damages, the rest absorbed by legal and defence costs. It's staggering that so much money, public money goes to lawyers, not those patients harmed or to improve the care. This the previous government consulted on introducing a fixed recoverable cost scheme, mirroring the approach used in many personal injury cases. And whilst it was agreed to three years ago, it remains under review. This Bill will put into place a system that will improve it and I'm grateful to the former Chancellor and Health Secretary, the right hon.

Member for Godalming and Ash for supporting this bill. There's also a long standing anomaly in how compensation is calculated, dictated by a law pre-dating the NHS that prevents consideration that the NHS may be the best place for claimants to access ongoing care. And as it stands, it can lead to the state effectively being double charged. So to ensure every pound is focussed on improving care and preventing harm, we must finally amend and update this law, this 1948 relic, to reflect modern day reality.

But fundamentally, this bill isn't about numbers on a balance sheet, nor is it about restricting compensation for those who've experienced harms. It's about mothers, patients, and families who live every day with the consequences of failure, who are crying out for a system that listens, that learns, and that acts to reduce harm. We have to restore trust. And an NHS built on compassion, not defensiveness. When things go wrong to ensure that lessons are learned quickly and openly so patients get the answers they need and the reassurance that the same mistakes won't just happen again.

The vast sums of money we currently spend on legal costs must instead go to improving the system, rather than forcing families into years of litigation just to get the answers they deserve. Yeah. So for Amy Lewes and baby Seren and for all the parents and babies who have suffered the most unimaginable harm,

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I commend this bill to the House. They. The question is that the

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They. The question is that the hon. Member have leave to bring in hon. Member have leave to bring in the Bill. As many as are of that opinion say I of the contrary, no. I think the ayes have it, the ayes

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I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. Who will prepare and bring in the bill, sir? Jeremy Hunt Marsha de Cordova. Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi. David Smith. Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi. David Smith. Peter Prinsley. Rachel Gilmour. Mary Glindon. Jen Craft. Paulette Hamilton. Hamilton. Anna Dixon. John Josh Babarinde Josh Fenton-Glynn and myself. Madam Deputy Speaker. Clinical Clinical Negligence Clinical Negligence Bill.

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Second Reading. What day? Friday. The 17th of April.

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Friday. The 17th of April. Friday the 17th of April. We now

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Friday the 17th of April. We now come to the allocation of time motion Minister to move. I beg to move. The question is, as on the Order

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The question is, as on the Order Paper, as many as are of that opinion, say aye. Of the contrary, no. I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. The clerk will now proceed to read the orders of the day.

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Ministerial Salaries amendment Bill, Second Reading.

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Bill, Second Reading. I beg to move. Now.

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Minister to move. Second Reading. I beg to move. Madam Deputy

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I beg to move. Madam Deputy Speaker, that the bill now be read a second time. I am pleased to open
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16:28
Nick Thomas-Symonds Portrait Rt Hon Nick Thomas-Symonds MP (Torfaen, Labour)
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needed to appoint enough pay Ministers to meet modern government demands. Madam Deputy Speaker, it demands. Madam Deputy Speaker, it may be helpful just to explain the context of the Bill that we have before us today. Now, under the before us today. Now, under the Constitution, the monarch appoints the Prime Minister as the person most able to command the confidence most able to command the confidence of the House of Commons. All ministerial appointments are thereafter made by the monarch on the advice of the Prime Minister.

the advice of the Prime Minister. Now there is a current statutory limit on how many ministerial salaries are available as set out in the Ministerial and Other Salaries Act of 1975, and our current limit of 109 has not been changed since then. There is a separate statutory limit on the number of Ministers who can sit and vote in the House of Commons, whether paid or unpaid, under the House of Commons Disqualification Act of 1975. Two this limit is 95, and the bill before us today does not change this, and there is no equivalent limit on the number of peers able to serve as Ministers.

The Ministerial and other Salaries Act also sets out the salaries should be paid to eight other office holders. The speakers of both houses. The Leader of the Opposition in both houses, the chief opposition whip in both houses, and two assistant opposition whips in the House of Commons. The Bill does not seek to amend the number of salaries allocated to these roles. Within that limit of 109, there are currently 83 salaries that can be allocated at Secretary of State, Minister of State and Parliamentary Secretary ranks.

A. Further four are allocated to the Lord Chancellor, the Attorney General, the Solicitor General and the Advocate General for Scotland, and there are 22 salaries that are allocated to government whips. I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, to the Minister for giving way. The public expects restraint at the moment, given the economic situation, and they also expect leadership, and that means ministerial leadership. Does he seriously believe the public will welcome this? Since we are told by the explanatory notes that it will involve between 13 and 19% hike in the payroll for this group of people, plus superann and severance payments, which is not an insignificant sum.

Had he considered perhaps reducing the number of Ministers rather than increasing them? I'm genuinely surprised by that intervention because when I was taking the Hereditary Peers Bill through the House, not only did the opposition frontbench in this House raise the issue of unpaid Ministers in the Lords, the leader of his party in the Lords also raised it as something they wanted. So, I mean, he's very much out of step with his own frontbench with that contribution. But to take him in terms of the substance of the point that he's making, the reassurance should be given that no, the the freeze on ministerial salaries absolutely remains.

It is not about the level of salary to individuals, it is about the number of salaries that is available for the Prime Minister to allocate. And indeed the ministerial. And I'll take more intervention than I'll make some progress. I'll take one more and then come back.

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I may be at risk of making myself fantastically unpopular, and I think I can do this, having a no I think I can do this, having a no prospect whatsoever of ministerial office again. But does he agree office again. But does he agree with me that at some point a government. I perfectly well admit the last government didn't do this the last government didn't do this does have to look at this constant freezing of the ministerial salary freezing of the ministerial salary at some point.

It does have to increase. Otherwise we'll get to the point where there will be no meaningful reward for ministerial office. And I think that could have a detrimental impact in terms of the calibre of people that we can attract over the long term. So I wonder whether the Minister might be willing, given his being, I think, rather bold with this. Why not be bold also with ministerial salaries.

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If I can just remind the House that what we are discussing and what is in scope today is the number of ministerial appointments, not the salaries of ministerial appointments.

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Paymaster General Madam Deputy Speaker. If ever Ministers were looking for a trade union leader, we have found one in front of us and and have having been the Deputy Prime Minister, perhaps you should worry less about the the future worry less about the the future ambitions. I've already held that very high office. But should I, should I, should I? The freeze remains in place on the 1975 act. Madam Deputy Speaker. It sets cumulative limits on the salaries allocated to Secretaries of State, Ministers of State and parliamentary secretaries, and within the overall limit of 83.

The cumulative limits are the 21 Secretary of State rank salaries, 50 Secretary of State Rank and Minister of State rank and 83. Secretary of State, Minister of State and Parliamentary Secretary. Rank salaries. Now the salary limits were set in 1975, which is now over half a century ago. And as a result of the demands of modern government, all governments since 2010 have consistently featured larger ministerial teams than the existing Act's provisions permit to be paid. It ranged from an average of 118 in the Cameron and May government to 123 in the Sunak government, and there are 122 in the current government.

And what that has meant is led to an unsatisfactory position where governments of all parties have become dependent on Ministers being willing and able to work unpaid and historically. To be fair, this has predominantly fallen to Ministers in the other place. Now I do not think that can be right. Lords Minister has worked incredibly hard, and they often manage some of the broadest and most damaging demanding portfolios across government, possibly damaging as well. But, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm sure the whole House can support the notion that Ministers be paid for what they do.

This is a government of service. We have more state educated Cabinet Ministers than ever before, and it is right that we expect Ministers to be paid for the job they are doing and focus on that job, rather than relying on external funding. So let me. I was just about to summarise

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the bill, but before I do, I will give way. Grateful to the Minister for his

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Grateful to the Minister for his typical courtesy. I'm sure there will be wide agreement with the proposition that is just made, that proposition that is just made, that someone who's doing a ministerial job ought to be paid for it, and job ought to be paid for it, and that such job should not be reserved for those people who can afford not to be paid for it. afford not to be paid for it. However, the on the principle that bigger government isn't necessarily better government, can he guarantee that if there is an increase in the number of paid ministerial posts, there won't be a commensurate increase in an extra number of unpaid ministerial posts?

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And the point the point is, and I have every sympathy with what the gentleman has just said, because gentleman has just said, because the number 120 is not an objective to become bigger. The number 120 is the average size of governments the average size of governments we've had since 2010. In any event, so it's not so much to try and expand the number of unpaid expand the number of unpaid Ministers. Far from it. It's to try to ensure that all the Ministers that are in the government are actually being paid, rather than the expansion beyond it, that the right hon.

Gentleman quite rightly, draws attention to. So just to summarise the Bill Madam Deputy Speaker, it increases the cap on ministerial salaries from 109 to 120. All the additional salaries will be allocated at either Secretary of State, Minister of State, or Parliamentary Secretary rank at the discretion of the Prime Minister. The salaries operate cumulatively. It means salaries not allocated as a senior rank can be used to pay administer at a more junior rank within the limits. So therefore, the Bill makes provision for one additional salary at Secretary of State rank, increasing the limit to 22 for additional salaries that can be allocated at either Secretary of State or Minister of State rank, including increasing the overall limit for Secretaries of State and Ministers of state from 50 to 54, and then 11 additional salaries that can be allocated at either Secretary of State, Minister of State or Parliamentary Secretary rank, increasing that overall limit from 83 to 94.

Now, given that cumulative structure, if it were the case that the Prime Minister of the day chose to allocate them to the most senior Minister possible, it would result in one extra salary for Secretary of State, three for Ministers of state and seven for parliamentary secretaries. I should be clear that the limits on the Lord Chancellor Attorney General, Solicitor General Advocate General for Scotland and Government whips remains unchanged and the limits on other office holder salaries also remain unchanged. As I've said,

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Madam Deputy Speaker, I will give way. I'm very grateful. To the Minister. I'm sorry to come in at the

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I'm sorry to come in at the death, but one of the things I've never quite understood, given that the workload is broadly the same, why there is a differential in why there is a differential in salary between the different levels of Minister and particularly in the Lords, where effectively the jobs Lords, where effectively the jobs are the same. Why? Some Ministers of state, some under Secretary. Why are they paid a different amount? We are, after all, never, whatever our seniority, all paid exactly the same in this house.

Why wouldn't they all just be paid the same? Yeah, it's an interesting point the hon. Gentleman makes, actually. And it's you know, I think if we go back to the debates around the in 1975, you'll see some of the reasons why it's the case. And we've always differentiated not just in the ranks, but there are those differentials in salaries. If you look at the law offices as well, I think that's historically how we've done it doesn't really mean there's a logic behind it, but I think it's the historical system we've inherited.

This bill is obviously meant to just correct one of the anomalies. That isn't to say there aren't others, as the right hon. Gentleman sets out, as I say, 120 is the average number of Ministers since 2010. That's what's in clause one of the bill and set against the existing limit of 95 Ministers who can be members of this place under the House of Commons Disqualification Act, 1975. 25 salaries are effectively reserved for Lords Ministers. As I indicated in the earlier to the earlier intervention from the right hon.

Gentleman, the Bill does not increase the pay of individual Ministers. I know that took a different view from the former Deputy Prime Minister on that, but with the exception of Lords pay in 2019, the salaries of Ministers has not increased since 2008 and the Prime Minister has current Prime Minister maintained a salary freeze on entering office. The bill does not change that position, so I will give way one more time and then I'll conclude.

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The Minister has made frequent reference to this 120 point, but reference to this 120 point, but further to the intervention by the hon. Member for my hon. Friend for hon. Member for my hon. Friend for New Forest, why not then legislate to have that as a fixed cap on to have that as a fixed cap on Ministers? Because in my experience advising many Ministers and being involved in many reshuffles, there involved in many reshuffles, there is always an enormous temptation just to squeeze one more in and then another one.

And right now, Ministers, that's it, 120 is the cap and then there will be some new brief. And then before we know it, it will be the. The cap on the salaried Ministers will be 120, and we'll have 125 Ministers in total, with five unpaid. And we'll be back where we started all over again. So if the Minister wishes to gain the consent of the House of Commons for for increasing the number of salary posts, and he makes a convincing argument for doing so, why not then guard against that risk by also

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introducing an absolute cap on the number of Ministers. Simply to give the reassurance. The former Deputy Prime Minister. The former Deputy Prime Minister. That absolutely is not the objective of the bill. I mean, he's I think he'll have been involved probably in more reshuffles than me probably in more reshuffles than me over the many years that he was either in number ten or subsequently as a Minister. But the subsequently as a Minister. But the objective is so that we do not have the situation of unpaid Ministers.

That's the very clear objective of That's the very clear objective of the Bill. And indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker, the purpose is that the Prime Minister has that flexibility to appoint enough paid Ministers to meet the demands of modern government. I also think, and I think, the general acceptance of this, that anyone in the country should aspire to be a Minister, no matter what their background, is not relying on personal wealth in lieu of a salary. I hope on that basis, Madam Deputy Speaker, this what is a very short piece of legislation will command the support of members across the House, House.
16:41
Alex Burghart Portrait Alex Burghart MP (Brentwood and Ongar, Conservative)
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Hey. >> The question is that the bill be. Now read a second time. Shadow Minister Alex Burghart. >> Yeah. >> Thank you very much, Madam

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Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. Hon. Members will be delighted to hear that. I only be delighted to hear that. I only intend to speak briefly and. This is this is because the the opposition does not intend to oppose the legislation today. My contribution is already substantially longer than that made by my predecessor, Teddy Taylor, in 1975, when the legislation originally came to this House, who who said only 14 words before sitting down the.

I just want to return because although the party doesn't. My party doesn't oppose this measure. I do have a few questions based on issues raised by my hon. Friends because yeah, the position of our party is that the next conservative government will intend to reduce the size of government and in due course, to reduce the size, the number of Ministers that the government requires. But on principle, we do think that Ministers ought to be paid. And I think that's why I refer back to my right hon.

Friend, the former Deputy Prime Minister's remarks. It would be good to have a Dispatch Box commitment that there won't be any more, you know, unpaid Ministers under this government, because if that's the intention of the bill, I understand he hasn't drafted it in that way, and we don't intend to bring forward amendments at Committee stage. But I think it would reassure the House that this isn't just going to be an ever increasing problem, and that unpaid Ministers will add to paid Ministers and so on.

But and I also think that it would be helpful if the the Minister would set out for the House what the government's intention is for the additional Secretary of State salary. I think that will command some interest inside and outside of this place. I think it's it's pretty obvious that the government has something in mind, and it would be useful to air that at this stage. But as I say, we do believe that those who serve as Ministers ought to be paid.

And it's not really right that prime Ministers should ask people to be a Minister of the Crown without offering them a salary. I think our constituents would feel the same way. So while our approach would be slightly different, we will not

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oppose the legislation today. Liberal Democrat spokesperson Lisa Smart, thank you. Very much, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Liberal Democrats believe that people should be paid fairly to do a job and that it should not be a job and that it should not be only the already wealthy who can afford to be a Minister. Ministers will face enormous demands on their will face enormous demands on their time, for there is much to be done and the government should prioritise finding talent across
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Lisa Smart Portrait Lisa Smart MP (Hazel Grove, Liberal Democrat)
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prioritise finding talent across both houses to fill these positions. We recognise the importance of having a well rounded and efficient government, but expanding the ministerial payroll is only justifiable if it comes with transparency, accountability and a genuine commitment to public service. When the previous conservative government, or maybe it was the one before that, or the one before that when they were in power, we witnessed a merry go round of Ministers. We had the shortest serving Prime Minister ever, endless Cabinet reshuffles and a revolving door of Secretaries of State that left departments directionless and a policy and policy in a constant state of flux.

Instead of everyone being famous for five minutes, almost every conservative MP in the last Parliament was a Minister for 15 minutes. We on these benches believe that Ministers who hold office for only a few days or weeks should not be entitled to handsome severance payouts. Under the chaos of the last government, we witnessed severance payments made to Ministers who had been in post for under a week. That's an insult to the taxpayer, and this government must ensure such practices are consigned to history.

In recent months we have seen that those we should be able to trust in positions of government do not always have our best interests at heart. From Mandelson's dismissal and sharing of confidential information to a former Cabinet Office Minister being implicated, implicated in efforts to discredit journalists, these scandals have led to further corrosion in public trust, which we should be doing everything in our power to rebuild. Last year, YouGov found that only 4% of people feel that politicians are doing what is best for the country, while 67% feel that politicians act out of self-interest.

Our political system is under enormous strain and public outrage at the numerous instances of corruption. Law breaking or just poor judgement is a gift to political extremes, meet promises to tweak some processes and not enough. The government with this legislation, is adding an estimated 600 to £850,000 a year to the cost to the taxpayer. And if the government is demanding this amount of money, of this amount of taxpayers money each year to pay for these additional salaries, they should be able to provide a guarantee that the public is getting full value for that money.

The government should commit that none of these newly salaried Ministers, nor any Minister drawing a taxpayer funded salary, will be permitted to hold a second or third job. If they're expanding the payroll to fit the size of the government they need, there is no excuse for those Ministers to be dividing their time with outside employment. That being said, the work that Ministers do should be recognised. The current government has 120 Ministers, of which two in the House of Commons and nine in the other place are unpaid.

But expanding the ministerial payroll must come with greater accountability, not less. Liberal Democrats are calling on the government to enshrine the ministerial code in law, so that the standards we expect of those in office are not merely guidelines to be ignored at will, but legal obligations with real consequences. We also call for the ethics adviser to be made truly independent and empowered to initiate their own investigations, determine breaches and publish findings without interference from the very Prime Minister they're supposed to hold to account.

This bill doesn't tell us very much new about what responsibilities the additional Ministers will take on, and before we know through this additional taxpayer expenditure, I'd welcome an assurance from the Minister and a clear explanation of what the roles will be and why these particular roles are needed. Transparency when signing over this amount of money should be an expectation and not a request. This government, and indeed its predecessors, talk of devolution, something we Liberal Democrats strongly support. We believe the best decisions are those made closest to the people they impact, and this government has taken some steps to devolve power and funding closer to the communities we all represent.

They haven't necessarily done it in the way we Lib Dems would have done, but we acknowledge they've made some progress. But in his closing remarks, I wonder if the Minister could comment on how he sees the number of Ministers changing over time, if the number of decisions taken locally or in the regions and the amount of power in those regions increases, does that mean he expects the number of Ministers needed at a national level to decrease? Liberal Democrats will support measures that make government work better, but feel this bill today.

Expanding the ministerial payroll is a missed opportunity to strengthen ministerial accountability, or to do anything truly meaningful to rebuild the public trust that has been so badly damaged.
16:48
Gavin Williamson Portrait Rt Hon Sir Gavin Williamson MP (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge, Conservative)
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So Gavin Williamson. >> Thank you, Madam. >> Deputy Speaker. Can I just say what a pleasure it is to speak in this debate and speak in a debate this debate and speak in a debate where there's no time limit that is attached to the speeches that are made? This is a rarity and an opportunity that I think we should all relish and take advantage of. And I must confess, Madam Deputy Speaker, when I saw the title of this bill, the radical in me was excited by it because I thought, you know, the government was going to be doing something bold and visionary and different.

But sadly, that opportunity to do something different seems to have passed them by. And instead of listening to what the Chancellor has been saying about some of the great challenges that this country faces in terms of balancing the books, in making sure that we have the ability to pay our way in order to be able to make savings in government from the top all the way to the bottom. The Cabinet Office seems to have gone on a little jolly of their own.

They've decided to do something completely different, and they've decided to expand the cost of doing government. This isn't quite what the British public are saying, and I. Before this debate, I thought I'd best just check my emails because I was thinking, when was the last time I had a deluge? Or maybe even just one? Madam Deputy Speaker One email calling for more Cabinet Ministers, more Ministers of state, or maybe more parliamentary under-secretaries of state. And I searched for the last month and I could not find one.

I searched for the last year. Madam Deputy Speaker. I could not find one. So I went all the way back for 16 years, desperately searching for the email, calling on more Cabinet Ministers, more Ministers of state, more parliamentary under-secretaries of state. And I found none whatsoever. Madam Deputy Speaker So I am concerned for the health of this government that I look at that is having a few difficulties. And I'm wondering I'm wondering if they're actually doing things that maybe the public don't want them to do, because I don't think there is a great demand for more Ministers.

And I urge I urge the Minister to actually look at this legislation, and there could be a way of doing it, because I agree with one element of this bill, as if a person is being asked to do a job, they should get a wage for it. But why don't you bring down the number of people that can be Ministers? Why don't we take this and make sure it is a saving for the government and for the Treasury, and this will earn the Minister great plaudits from number 11.

He'll probably be hailed. He'll probably be earmarked for promotion so he can get one of those reduced Cabinet Secretary of State positions. I do question as to why at this time the government is bringing forward legislation in order to be able to expand the government payroll. I do remember a time when I was chief whip, which admittedly was many years ago. Maybe things have been changed. I've often been confronted with members of Parliament quite willing to do a job without any pay as long as they were going to be called Minister.

But maybe the times have changed since I was Chief Whip, but I worry that actually saying that we have found time to pass legislation to pay more people to be Ministers is not the message that we want the public to hear. The public want to hear that the government and this House is tackling the issues that impact their lives. They want to hear that this House is tackling the issues as is going to make a difference to their living standards, not members of Parliament and Ministers living

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standards. I'll happily give way. The hon. Gentleman is waxing lyrical in relation to it, but the fact of the matter out there, my constituents tell me that the cost of oil over $100 a barrel, my constituents pay more tax, have constituents pay more tax, have less money to spend. They wonder how many more Ministers will make an effective government become more an effective government become more effective. And so does the hon. Gentleman think it's. This only Gentleman think it's.

This only adds to the disconnect of the people out in the street out there. The people who tell me what is

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happening, what is going on? How can we do it better? And I completely agree with my

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And I completely agree with my hon. Friend. It is that disconnect. It is that sense of where all the priorities, all the issues that are priorities, all the issues that are going on around the world, we're actually just wanting to pass legislation to create more ministerial offices. And I also understand and appreciate the challenges that the Prime Minister will face. And I am sympathetic to it because actually, he will be constantly badgered to make more Ministers, more people wanting patronage, more people wanting elevation.

And as my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest has pointed out, there is no upper limit. So what you will see in ten years time, if we're in this house, in ten years time, we'll be having a debate about how there is another 15 Ministers that are unpaid. And then the government Minister will be at the despatch box, possibly trying to defend the idea of paying even more. And this is where you have a creep, creep, creep of patronage.

You have a creak, creak, creak of ever more people going onto the government payroll. And I feel and I fear that that may weaken this House. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
16:54
Charlie Dewhirst Portrait Charlie Dewhirst MP (Bridlington and The Wolds, Conservative)
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Shadow Minister Charlie Dewhirst. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And. And may I first thank my right And. And may I first thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge for his very, very powerful remarks just very, very powerful remarks just now. I hope he didn't spend too many hours trawling through 16 years of emails, but it is yet another example of his hard work and diligence in this place. And and I do sympathise with his points, but I hope he is comforted by by the remarks, the opening remarks of my hon.

Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar, that a future conservative government will reduce the number of ministerial posts and reduce the size of government. The Madam Deputy Speaker as I'm sure all members would agree, it is only right that those who choose to serve the public as Ministers of the Crown should be able to receive a salary if they wish to, while the government of the day must must always be drawn and ultimately accountable to the elected House of Commons. Previous governments of all stripes have benefited from the knowledge and wisdom provided by noble Lords, who have served as Ministers from noble Lords, who have served as junior Ministers, to those who have held one of the great offices offices of state.

I am sure many members who have had the privilege of working alongside alongside them, know personally of their dedication and public service all those who serve as Ministers of the Crown. Madam Deputy Speaker, whether they be members of this House or noble Lords, give up their time and energy and take on an extra burden of responsibilities in doing so, both relating to their departmental work and in representing the government in the chamber. It is only right, therefore, that Ministers should receive equal payment in, regardless of which house they sit in.

It should also be noted that the impetus for ensuring all those who serve as Ministers of the Crown can receive a salary came from the other place where they debated this issue at length during the passage of the Hereditary Peers Bill. While it remains a great disappointment that the government chose to proceed with that misguided piece of legislation, at least some comfort can be taken from the fact that this debate emerged from that bill. In particular, I want to pay tribute to my noble friend, the Lord true, who so eloquently made the case for ensuring all Lords Ministers can receive a salary in the other place, and who laid amendments to the Hereditary Peers Bill to this end.

And while it remains disappointing, the government did not support the opposition's amendments when it had the opportunity to do so, those noble Lords who have been calling for this change can take comfort in knowing that the efforts were not in vain. It is also further proof of the quality of debate in the other place, and the importance of its constitutional role in strengthening our laws through scrutiny, that we should be debating this bill because of their efforts. In conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, noble Lords, with the experience and expertise to serve as Ministers, should not be prevented from doing so due to a lack of private means.

I therefore join my hon. Friends in not opposing this bill.
16:57
Chris Ward Portrait Chris Ward MP, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Brighton Kemptown and Peacehaven, Labour)
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Chris Ward. >> Chris Ward. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and can I thank all those members who took part, but the limited numbers who took part, taking advantage of the lack of time limit. Thank you all for doing so. Madam Thank you all for doing so. Madam Deputy Speaker. This is a simple bill. It has just two clauses and it has a simple purpose to increase the number of Ministers who can be paid to 120. The average number of Ministers since 2010, and it is also rooted in a simple principle that holding ministerial office should not be dependent on individual wealth.

The Bill, as my right hon. Friend the Paymaster General set out, amends the 1975 Ministerial and other Salaries Act. It does so to better reflect the nature of modern government, including the number of Ministers any modern government tends to require. Now it allows, but does not require, a maximum of 120 not require, a maximum of 120 salaried members across both houses. the average number of Ministers since 2010, which means, I say that since 2010, an approximate average of 11 Ministers have been paid each government.

Now, I know that is not among the great injustices of our age. Hence this is a short bill. But it does address a clear inequity that limits those largely in the other place who are able or willing to take on a ministerial role. This bill rectifies that, broadening the bench of those able to serve as Ministers and recognises, as I say, that private income should never be a requirement to serve as a government Minister. Give way. The hon. Gentleman, for giving way.

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Was there any consideration given to reducing the ministerial

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given to reducing the ministerial total as against increasing it as preparation for this bill? As I say, the number of

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As I say, the number of Ministers in the current government is virtually the same as it was in the previous government. I think actually it's one lower than it was in the previous in the previous government. And the intention of this bill, which goes to a point this bill, which goes to a point raised by a couple of hon. Members, is not to increase the number of Ministers at all or the size of government. It is simply to rectify the anomaly of unpaid Ministers in the upper House.

And the right hon. Gentleman, who, of course, served in several governments of this size over the last ten years, asked, why should this come? Why should this come? Why should this come forward at this time? The short answer of why? One of the answers of why now is the leader of the Conservative Party in the House of Lords proposed this in an amendment it was put forward by the conservative side, and he was wrong. But that is one of the reasons this has come forward, and it's one of the reasons to address the inequity that we're dealing with.

But look, the bill today will allow but it will not require. And this goes to a point that the shadow Chancellor had actually raised earlier. It will allow, but not require one additional salary at Secretary of State rank, that is, for the Prime Minister to decide whether that goes to a Secretary of State or not. Parliamentary under-secretaries can be rewarded as well, and so can Ministers of state, but it allows one additional Secretary of State for additional salaries at Minister of State or Secretary of State, and 11 additional salaries overall.

As I say, those limits are cumulative, meaning that the Prime Minister has a discretion to award those. So there is no prior intention here. It's about discretion. Let me turn quickly to what the bill does not do, because, as the Paymaster General said, it does not alter the salaries of Ministers, much to the disappointment of the former Deputy Prime Minister, they will remain frozen, as they have done since 2008. It does not necessarily. This is a point the hon. Gentleman raised.

It does not necessarily create additional ministerial roles. Indeed, it simply reflects the average level since 2010. It does not alter the maximum number of paid Commons Ministers. That remains at 95, effectively reserving 25 places for Lords Ministers. And of course, it does not affect MPs pay either, which of course is rightly and rightly and entirely independent of this House. So all the bill will do is increase the maximum number of salaried Ministers to be in line with the average number of Ministers over the last few parliaments.

Now, turning to some of the questions that were raised by hon. Friends, as I say, the size of government remains remains unchanged. The government has no intention to increase that. It's merely to allow higher numbers to be paid and remove that iniquity. The Liberal Democrat spokesperson raised the amount of minimum service for severance pay. Of course, this government has already addressed that by by introducing a power to mean that you have to serve six months before any severance can be paid, removing, as she quite rightly pointed out, some of the absurdities of the last government where people were being paid for a day or in some cases a few hours in the job.

She also raised second jobs. Now, I remind you, obviously the Labour Party has a manifesto commitment to address this and to ensure that, second jobs are only permitted in in particular circumstances, for example, GPS, doctors, etc. that is currently a matter that the modernisation Committee is taking forward. I'm very keen for that to be addressed as quickly as possible, but that is a matter that will come back to the House. She also. I'll just finish on the Liberal Democrat point that I certainly will.

She also mentioned the ethics adviser. Now I would just emphasise again that one of the changes the Prime Minister made right at the beginning of this government was to increase the role and independence of the independent advisors. They are truly independent. We've seen that several times and that they and that the ethics adviser can initiate his own inquiries. So that is an important point. I'll just finish and then I will. She also asked me asked us what roles will these new salaried Ministers fulfil? As I say, that is a matter for the Prime Minister, and the Minister has no intention to change that.

I will give way to the lady on her gentleman.

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I'm very grateful to the Minister for giving way. He will know, of course, that the Prime Minister is responsible for the Minister is responsible for the contents of the ministerial code. And while the ethics advisor can launch an investigation, the Prime Minister still has the reserve Minister still has the reserve right to raise concerns about such an investigation so that the independent advisor does not

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proceed. Have I understood that correctly? The Prime Minister polices the ministerial code and he has responsibility for it. The independent advisor, I say, was given the power to initiate his own investigations into Ministers, which is, I think, an important step forward. It comes in part because, of course, some of the problems we saw in the previous government. I think the role of the independent advisor has been

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significantly strengthened under now. I'm grateful to the Minister for

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I'm grateful to the Minister for giving way. I am reminded of that great fictional character, Sir Humphrey Appleby, who once observed Humphrey Appleby, who once observed that you get 300 members, you get the former government 100 or too the former government 100 or too young and too callow, 100 are too old and too silly. And so the government pretty much selects government pretty much selects itself. And so I congratulate the Minister for making it into the middle third, the on second jobs, on second jobs.

Can I just can I just ask the Minister whether he feels as a Minister? It is essentially a second job for which he is remunerated. And is it not a bit mean spirited to pull up the drawbridge on other MPs who might actually desire to have a second

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job in the same way? In a way, he does. Thank him for that, and for slight flattery to not put me in slight flattery to not put me in the first or third of those first third of those brackets. Look, as I say, we're not trying to. The say, we're not trying to. The Labour Party has a manifesto commitment to look at second jobs and to limit them significantly. It's not about pulling up the It's not about pulling up the drawbridge in all circumstances.

As I say, there would be exemptions that we've looked at before, particularly around people who've particularly around people who've serving in the NHS or etc. but that is a point I do think should be looked at, and I think that there is a basic expectation from the public that this that being in this House is the is your one and only job. And except in exceptional circumstances, that should be the case. But as I say, that is with the modernisation committee and we will look to that.

Moving on, Madam Speaker, just a point. Raise a point again that the gentleman mentioned. He said there was nothing bold and radical being put forward here, but I would just point out this bill, of course, comes alongside a number of other reforms this government is trying to deliver to modernise our democracy. Last week, of course, after the Herculean efforts of the Paymaster General and others, legislation was finally passed to remove hereditary peers from this legislature and not a moment too soon.

And in an interview, I will not, because I know, I know, he was not a great fan of that legislation and it. In a few months, in a, in a in a a a in a alongside that. Of course, in a few months time, this government will also introduce legislation to widen the franchise to people of 16 delivering on our manifesto commitment. So what better sign of bold and radical constitutional reform than removing Hereditaries and broadening the franchise? I will give way because I'm feeling generous.



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The Minister for his generosity. And he's right. He did remove the government, did move to remove Hereditaries an important step forward. But they also have failed forward. But they also have failed to do a number of other things that were in their manifesto, including an age limit and attendance. Can an age limit and attendance. Can the Minister give some clarity as to when that legislation is going to come forward, and whether he

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to come forward, and whether he could also throw in the bishops as well to get rid of them? You might raise bishops. I thought that might give him. He's quite right that he's he's quite right that hereditary, the hereditary, the removal of hereditary peers is a step forward in modernising the Other place. It is not the conclusion of it. And there is a correct. And the manifesto commits to a number of things which are. In the second phase of laws reform, a committee is being set up to advise on how we go forward on that and to bring forward plans on that forward, and I look forward to debating that in the House with him.

When we when we bring them forward, including including retirement age and other steps to modernise the second chamber. But Madam Deputy Speaker those steps are quite apart from this bill, because, as I said at the beginning, this is a simple bill. It is with a very narrow purpose, and it is designed to address a very simple inequity. And

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with that, Madam Deputy Speaker, I commend the bill to the House for. The question. Is that the bill

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The question. Is that the bill now be read a second time, as many as are of that opinion say I. I on as are of that opinion say I. I on the contrary, no, I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. Money,

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have it, the ayes have it. Money, motion to be moved formally. I beg to move. The question is, as on the Order

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The question is, as on the Order Paper, as many as are of that opinion say I. I of the contrary, no. I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it order and the allocation of time order of today. We now move to Committee of the whole House.

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I beg to. Report that the committee has. Sorry.

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Sorry. Order Ministerial Salaries (Amendment) Bill. I remind members that in committee members should not address the chair. As Deputy address the chair. As Deputy Speaker, please use our names when addressing the chair. Madam chair, chair and Madam Chairman are also acceptable. We begin with the question that clause one stand part of the Bill with which it would be convenient to consider. Clause two stand part. The question is that clause one stand part of the bill I

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call the Minister Paymaster General. Yeah. Thank you, Madam Chair. It's a pleasure to serve under your pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. As I open the Committee of the whole House, I've already set out the core arguments for this legislation in my Second for this legislation in my Second Reading speech, so I'm not going to rehearse them again here, though I've not matched the Teddy Taylor I've not matched the Teddy Taylor standard from 1975. But for the benefit of the House, I will outline the two clauses and why
17:09
Nick Thomas-Symonds Portrait Rt Hon Nick Thomas-Symonds MP, The Paymaster General and Minister for the Cabinet Office (Torfaen, Labour)
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they should stand part of the bill. So, Madam Chair, clause one of the bill amends paragraph two of part five of schedule one to the Ministerial and other Salaries Act 1975, which is the section of that act that determines the maximum number of salaries that may be paid to certain ministerial office holders. Clause one A replaces the previous position of 21 salaries of Secretary of State rank, with a new provision for 22 salaries. Clause one B replaces the previous provision of 50 salaries at Secretary of State Rank and Minister of State rank, with a new provision for 54 salaries and clause one C replaces the previous provision of 83 salaries at Secretary of State rank, Minister of State, Rank and Parliamentary Secretary Rank with a new provision of 94 salaries.

This increases the total number of ministerial salaries available by 11. As I indicated, the new limits are cumulative, meaning the Prime Minister has the discretion to allocate salaries to a large number of Ministers in more junior ranks within those limits, if so desired. Clause two of the Bill sets out the extent, commencement and short title of the Bill. The bill extends to England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and of course, Madam Chair, the Bill comes into force upon royal assent. And there we are.

Madam chair, I very much look forward to the rest of the debate and seeing the bill on the statute book soon.
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Nick Thomas-Symonds Portrait Rt Hon Nick Thomas-Symonds MP, The Paymaster General and Minister for the Cabinet Office (Torfaen, Labour)
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Paymaster General well, I'll try to be brief on these two questions. to be brief on these two questions. The usual precise contributions ever from the shadow Chancellor of the Duchy. Why those totals? the Duchy. Why those totals? Because they reflect the average practice since 2010. It's trying to look at the existing practice as opposed to and perhaps to reassure the right hon. Gentleman, rather than looking at additional totals in the future, to look at existing practice. And secondly, in terms of ending the practice of unpaid, largely ended, that is exactly the

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intention of the bill. The question is that clause one

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The question is that clause one stand part of the bill, as many as are of that opinion, say I. I of are of that opinion, say I. I of the contrary, no. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. The question is that clause two stand part of the Bill. As many as are of that opinion say I. I of the contrary, no. I think the ayes have contrary, no. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. Order, order.

That concludes proceedings in

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committee. Order Windsor report. I beg to report that the

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I beg to report that the Committee has gone through the bill and directed me to report the same without amendment.

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without amendment. If under the order of the House of today, we now move to Third

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of today, we now move to Third Reading. Now Minister to move Third Reading. Madam Deputy Speaker, I will

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Madam Deputy Speaker, I will keep my remarks brief. I just want to thank members across the House for their contributions to the debate today. I'm sure there are issues far wider than this bill on House of Lords reform. I'm sure we will continue the debate on in due course. But also, if I could just say a word to the officials and indeed the team who have put the bill together, we are grateful across the House for their work,

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and I commend this bill to the House here. The question is that the bill be.

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The question is that the bill be. Now read the third time. As many as are of that opinion, say aye. Of the contrary, no. I think the ayes the contrary, no. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. Yes. Motion number six on rating and valuation. Minister to move.

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I beg to move. The question is, as on the Order Paper, as many as are of that opinion say I. I of the contrary, no. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. Petition Steff Aquarone Mr Speaker.
17:14
None Portrait Petitions
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I refer members to my register of interest as a serving County of interest as a serving County councillor. Corpusty Primary School is a valid small rural school in my constituency being threatened with closure at the end of this academic closure at the end of this academic year. It's educated generations of children in North Norfolk and is a vital asset to the rural communities of Corpusty, Saxthorpe and the surrounding villages. The Conservatives on Norfolk County Council could take action to try and prevent this closure, but they're refusing to.

Catchments could be widened, new housing will bring new families and proper placemaking strategies could be employed, but they won't do it. The petitioners, therefore, request the House of Commons urge the government to work with Synergy Multi Academy Trust and Norfolk County Council to pause the proposed closure of Corpusty Primary School until the alternative arrangements to secure the future of the school have been fully explored and the forthcoming local elections have taken place and the petitioners remain, etc.

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Hear, hear. Petition. Corpusty Primary

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School. Thank you. I beg to move that this House do now adjourn.

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now adjourn. The question is that this House do now adjourn. Andrew George.

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do now adjourn. Andrew George. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a. Point of order.

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Adam Jogee thank you very much, Madam Speaker. On a point of order, today is the 17th of March, Saint Patrick's Day, and people will be Patrick's Day, and people will be celebrating across the world. Made easier for us this evening because the opposition benches voted for
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Andrew George Portrait Andrew George MP (St Ives, Liberal Democrat)
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>> Andrew George thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am pleased to have secured a debate, and I'm sure that the Minister is delighted that. that the Minister is delighted that. We've also adjourned at a moment where we have ample time in which to in which to explore the issues of and the important issues of of transport to the Isles of Scilly, and indeed between the islands of the Isles of Scilly, because there is a frankly a shocking, shocking injustice that Scillonian residents have been treated as second class citizens when it comes to affordable transport, especially when compared with everywhere else, frankly, in the United Kingdom.

And that is a point which I hope that the Minister will, will acknowledge and will take on board and therefore consider working with both myself and the Council of the Isles of Scilly and indeed, residents on the Isles of Scilly to ensure that we receive and that the the Islanders receive parity with the kind of public transport which other parts of the country simply take for granted. I know that some places struggle with their with their transport, particularly in rural areas, but there are but.

But in comparison with the Isles of Scilly, the circumstances are very different. This, of course, isn't the first time that I've raised a debate of this kind in the House and indeed, for example, on the 8th of January, 2002, column 159 Westminster Hall just to help Hansard reporters and the 15th of January, 2003, and on many other occasions since then. And. And indeed, even during my nine sabbatical years from this place, I, I raised the issues outside, outside this house because of the the injustice, although some improvements have been made, we've also gone backwards as well.

As far as services are concerned, I. I'll just give one example. This is a this is a message from from one of my constituents, from one of the one of the four off islands. There are four inhabited islands and the Isles of Scilly. Bryher, Tresco, Saint Martin's, and one main island, some Saint Mary's, and to get over to the main island of Saint Mary's, where. Where all of these services the hospital, medical services, the council operates, etcetera, etcetera. Residents from the from the off islands need to need to get across sometimes very tempestuous, you know, waters to, to get to the to the main island.

And this constituent says that I broke my wrist recently and because there was no bone showing through my arm, I had to wait five days until I could see medical personnel and have it x rayed and put in plaster. I. I've had a medical procedure which involved two daily visits from this off island to Saint Mary's Health Centre, but fortunately it was summer. If it had been winter, I would have to have paid £240, £240 just for the boating to and fro.

That's £120 return trip for the for, for, for the for the resident. Residents have no alternative than to book what are known as specials to attend an X-ray appointment or medical appointment, or to visit a very elderly resident or friend family member in Saint Mary's Hospital. This again is the £120 return. There has also been the cutback of transport funding for under five nursery services and and club activities like the brownies. And so the list goes on and on. And all the problems that the residents of Saint Martin's, that's where she lives, are facing due to the lack of affordable, affordable voting.



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Will you allow me? Yes, of course. I thank you very much for allowing me. And he's making a really powerful case for his constituents. Would he agree with constituents. Would he agree with me that it's not just a problem for the Isles of Scilly? It's also Isle of Wight, the Western Isles. We're an archipelago and those who live on the outer islands suffer from this inequity. They are as British as us, but they do not suffer from. as us, but they do not suffer from.

They do not enjoy the same connectivity that we enjoy.

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I'm grateful to my friend because actually he leads me on to my next point, because although he says that we're all in the same boat, if you pardon the pun, the boat, if you pardon the pun, the fact is that we're not. Because in Scotland those services are very heavily subsidised, as I will come heavily subsidised, as I will come on to explain. And so the the when I'm when we're looking for parity, the comparability of the services between the Isles of Scilly and and Scottish islands is very significantly different, I have to say.

And also, of course, the Azizali has the additional challenges of being some 40 miles off the off the coast of the Isle of Wight. I don't know how many miles is it? A mile and a half. Two, three miles, certainly. It's a very short journey. And also because of the simple the the, the, the, the numbers of passengers that that are going in that direction, obviously the costs are significantly less than, than indeed they are for, for the Isles of Scilly.

So, so when you compare it with Scottish islands, you've got a cost prices per per passenger for freight and indeed air transport, which are in many cases, in most cases very heavily subsidised. Now, I know the UK government is responsible for the the practices of the Scottish Government, but it was previous to to devolution and indeed that is when the policy was established. And that's why I still think, even though the. The Minister may attempt to to hide behind distancing himself from something which is not the responsibility of the UK government.

It was originally. And indeed, you know, that that left a legacy for Scotland, which has given them very significant advantages. So there is no no equivalent of the £3 bus fare. It's £120 return as you as you've just as sorry as you Madam Deputy Speaker have just heard and as the Minister will have heard. So. And there's no subsidised air travel, and the entire economy depends very much on on tourism and tourism depends on travel. So in those circumstances, obviously, we, we, we, we hope that the Isles of Scilly will be will be treated fairly.

There are very high freight costs, the costs of getting food and other essential services to the islands are very, very significant. So I'll ask the Minister is to is to work with the Council myself and transport providers and others to alleviate these pressures by finding an agreeable way to provide

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support, to reduce fees, these costs of living. Yes. I'll very Member. I really appreciate the hon.

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I really appreciate the hon. Member for St Ives bringing this important debate to the chamber. So I have Exeter airport in my constituency, one of the key constituency, one of the key transport nodes to get to the Isles of Scilly on my dad's side. My grandparents great grandparents grandparents great grandparents really enjoyed going down on holiday. They added to that tourism holiday. They added to that tourism economy and I've seen the prices of travel to get to the Scilly Isles increase over recent years, so less people are able to enjoy it.

So if I can Madam Speaker offer my support as well, any way that I can add in extra airports and work with the hon. Member to try and work on some of these problems, I'd be very happy to do so. Thank you.

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Well, I'm very grateful to the hon. Member, and I'm pleased that he and his family have got strong he and his family have got strong connections with the with the islands. I caution him not to describe them as the city Isles. He describe them as the city Isles. He won't he won't be well received on the islands. By by by by providing the islands. By by by by providing that particular nomenclature. But certainly he continues to call it the Isles of Scilly.

I'm sure that the Isles of Scilly. I'm sure that he'll be very well received there, and certainly his. His offer, his offer of his offer of working with myself and with the with the with the islanders, with Scillonian is something which I'm sure we will also be very I I'm very grateful to him for that, for that offer. Transport Scotland, which is a branch of the Scottish Government, subsidises most routes to islands in the Hebrides through a contract with Caledonian MacBrayne.

CalMac, as it's derived, and CalMac itself is is is owned by the by the Scottish Government. In addition, the islands are served by several other routes which are subsidised by local authorities and a handful are served without subsidy by by private private operators. The Scottish Government has supported the sector since. Since the. Since the 1960s, as I've said, and the. The Scottish Government has been obliged to tender for services since the late 90s to comply with with with state aid regulations and this has altered the ownership structures of what remains are state owned and operated service, and approximately 70% of.

Of Calmac's revenues come from. The Scottish Government is often said that for every pound paid by a ferry user, another £2 of public subsidy is required. In contrast, the mainland to to to city passenger services have always been operated on a commercial basis, with the exception during during the Covid pandemic, when when, as all companies around the country where, where, where subsidised and certainly it was seen as a lifeline service by by the government. The the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company, which is the primary operator of the of the of transport services to the to the Isles of Scilly and and and operates Scillonian III, which will be replaced next year by Scillonian for its now in its 49th year.

Indeed it was purchased in in the 60s with a, a, a government loan of £1 million during the period when when Harold Wilson, who was a resident of the. Of Saint Mary's, was was the was the Prime Minister and that that did did help the the company purchase that that vessel at that time. And of course, as the Minister will know, Harold Wilson is buried on, on on Saint Mary's and his, his, his love and affection with the islands as well is well known.

But it operates that that important lifeline link to the Isles of Scilly. But it only operates during the the summer months. Not. And it can't operate during the winter because of the. The inclement conditions. Although the steamship company does offer concessionary fares for Island Islanders through its through its travel club, as it calls it, which is a way of building and rewarding loyalty, it is seen that that by by others and certainly visitors of the island, that somehow this is being cross-subsidised from, from, from visitors to the islands.

And of course, we don't want to get into a situation where we discourage visitors to the islands, but it's worth just pointing out, I just checked online today that if we were to book a return fare on the ferry from Penzance to the Isles of Scilly three hour, more or less a three hour journey on the 40 mile trip, it would be varies, but around the £220 return fare mark. Whereas if you were to catch a ferry from Mallaig to to Cana properly approximately 30 miles in Scotland, that that journey would cost you £14.

20 if you go to Kennacraig to Port Askaig to to Isla. The two hour journey that is 18 one £8. The comparison is something which I think one needs to reflect on. Therefore, it's worth just saying that the most ferry services in in England, such as the ferries to the Isle of Wight, are operated by private operators, just as they are at the Isles of Scilly and do not receive any central government grant or funding. There are other examples around the country which are of publicly owned ferries in the UK, for example, between the UK and the Isle of Man on Merseyside.

Mersey ferries are effectively owned by the local transport authority. Liverpool City Region Combined Authority and in 19 sorry in 2018, the government of the Isle of Man bought the isle. The Isle of Man Steam Packet Company, who operate ferries between the Isle of Man, the UK and Ireland into public ownership and the Isle of Man government do not control the day to day running of the company's ferries, but they do own 100% stake of the of the the Isle of Man Steam Packet Companies parent company.

In terms of interisland transport, I've referred to this already and the costs in comparison with subsidies available to local authorities and passengers elsewhere. Of course, as I say, there isn't the equivalent of a £3 bus fare. There is no equivalent to free transport for for older people. And of course, what this means for us is that they have a significantly. Increased cost of cost of living. Now, whilst the, the, the, the, the Isles of Scilly Council is responsible, of course, for transport and the economic strategy is a member of the Isles of Scilly Transport Board, which also includes representatives of the transport providers and business groups.

The Council's Strategic Economic Plan, the Island futures includes a core aim to improve and I quote, to improve transport connectivity across the islands and to the mainland. In relation to connectivity, the strategy says the following it aims to secure a resilient year round transport service to Cornwall and further afield. It recognises that improving transport connectivity is a major challenge. That's an understatement. It aims to make the islands more self-sufficient and resilient to future changes, including in relation to transport connectivity, including between the islands.

The other matters which which complicate and worsen the situation for for the for the Isles of Scilly are that, of course it. It is. As a council responsible for running the airport now, it's a very small council with a. With a with a Budget of £8.8 million. But it has to run a fully regulated and lifeline. Airport service itself. I understand that it's, it's it's landing fees are due to increase simply to meet the costs of meeting those regulatory challenges of 18% this year.

And of course, a lot of the, the well, of course, the, the transport operators are complaining about this and understandably so. It is a great a great expense. The when I was last in Parliament, the the Egnos or the European Geostationary Navigational Overlay service, which is Europe's satellite based augmentation system to ensure a safer use of the of the of the services, the Egnos system was in operation. Of course, one of the many Brexit benefits, so-called Brexit benefits is that, of course, we no longer can use the European safe satellite system that has been withdrawn.

And so the services themselves have become less resilient and more weather dependent than they were just ten years ago. So, so here we have, you know, a circumstance where, where even where you have a system which, which operates it is it is also also struggling. The Minister will also be aware that the, the, the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company has some expressed concern about the expansion of the emissions Trading scheme there. Whilst. Of course we want to have cleaner atmospheres also is a question of of of the proportionate impact that this is likely to have.

So initially, this is for vessels with a gross tonnage of 5000 from the 1st of June this year, and then to vessels of of, of, of over 400 GT from from 2028 adding adding costs to the, to the service. And it would be helpful, I think if the Minister were prepared to talk to the steamship company is going to address that issue, which is very helpful. And I do appreciate that. Now, of course, I mean, health help has been provided and and certainly under the the the government's levelling up program, the offer of £48.4 million was was offered to create a new vessel.

And indeed when I was elected, there were, there were other subsidies which were available, but unfortunately wasn't always possible to get the the operator of the service, the steamship company, to agree to use those funds in the way that they, they they were they were offered. And I know that the Minister has responded in correspondence and and in meetings with me regarding how the the English National Concessionary Travel Scheme is supposed to operate. And of course, we don't have buses between the off islands and, and the main island, and therefore it's as absurd, I think, for the Minister to, to attempt to apply mainland, landlocked, you know, transport policies to, to maritime environment, like, like the Isles of Scilly.

I would ask him and urgent to look at this again. I mean, he he does go on and tell me that that of course, the local authority itself can, can provide concessions. But of course the, the, the, the Council of the Isles of Scilly is struggling to survive itself, let alone provide additional additional concessions for its for its transport services. So I do hope that the Minister will will look again at these matters. And so the recommended policies which we would ask the Minister to to to consider is extending the 2007 act powers to classify interisland voting as eligible, as eligible public passenger transport, and we could begin a pilot scheme.

With with the Isles of Scilly, perhaps during during the next the next winter and see how we how we get on and evaluate it after. After a 12 month period, we could create an islands transport mechanism equivalent to the Scottish A, A, S or ferry support services. Establish a statutory footing for Ireland. Appropriate subsidy powers. We can provide ETS transitional relief for lifeline routes and describe the. The. The service to the Isles of Scilly as a lifeline route to prevent fare spikes when the ETS comes into force and we can support hard harbour electrification for.

For Penzance and for Saint Mary's. I'm grateful to the to the to the to the Minister for for responding to the issues which I've raised previously. I do hope that he'll take on board the issues which I've raised. I'm delighted to say that that the, the, the chair of of the the Council of the Isles of Scilly, councillor Robert Francis is actually here today in the public gallery and watching this debate, and I know that he will be very as keen as I to, after this debate, to continue the.

The conversation with the Minister, as it is now desperately important that we address the very serious transport challenges which Scillonian face. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
17:37
Keir Mather Portrait Keir Mather MP (Selby, Labour)
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I call the Minister Minister Keir Mather. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It's a pleasure to respond to this It's a pleasure to respond to this adjournment debate, and may I begin by congratulating the hon. Member for St Ives for securing it and for for St Ives for securing it and for speaking so passionately about transport provision for the Isles of Scilly. He speaks with his characteristic good nature on what are really severe and challenging issues facing his constituents, and I do just want to, the first instance, acknowledge that and the tireless work across many decades in Parliament where he has advocated on their behalf.

I also thank him for his kind offer for us to work more closely together on this issue, which is certainly a commitment I would be glad to accept. He is right to point out, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the Isles of Scilly are unique, both in their beauty, their appeal to both residents and visitors as we have so ably heard, but that they also have clear and pressing challenges in their transportation needs. Their location, 30 miles to the west of Cornwall, brings a set of unique transport challenges, which the hon.

Member has set out today. If he would allow me, I would like to very briefly firstly highlight some of the work that this government is doing across transport and notably in Cornwall, that will benefit the hon. Member's constituents, before turning to the specific concerns that he has raised, we are providing Madam Deputy Speaker record levels of investment to road, bus and active travel projects across the country to boost connectivity through simplified multi-year settlements. And though I appreciate and the hon. Member has outlined that the Isles of Scilly are treated separately for funding purposes, Cornwall Council, the local authority for much of the hon.

Member's constituency, will receive over £30 million of local authority bus grants during the spending review period. In addition to the 10.6 million they are receiving this financial year, they will also receive over £4.5 million in active travel, up to 221 million in highways maintenance and 24 million of local transport grant funding over the next four years. But I appreciate that the hon. Member has brought this debate forward today, because he wants to speak about the specific concerns of Islanders, and it's those matters which I will now turn to.

The Isles of Scilly are currently served by a ferry service for eight months of the year provided by Isles of Scilly Steamship Company and their vessel, the Scillonian III. I'm pleased that the Steamship Company has commissioned the building of a new passenger ferry, the Scillonian, for which, as the hon. Member has outlined, is due to come into service next year. In addition, they have two new freight vessels coming into service this summer and a further vessel to be launched in 2027. These investments will help secure services between the isles and the mainland for the foreseeable future.

But he is right to point out the cost of living impact of the transport challenges that his constituents face and the cost of living is a key issue for this government, and I recognise the hon. Member and his constituents concerns regarding the unique challenges around the high cost of travel to, from and between the islands. I acknowledge the difficulties the island communities face, both in terms of travel to and from the mainland and on an inter-island basis, and my department remains committed to delivering better, sustainable and more affordable transport provision, which will be reaffirmed in the Integrated National Transport Strategy, which will soon be published.

Now, I hope that the hon. Member will appreciate that although the amount of transport funding we are able to offer the Isles of Scilly through the legislative means that he outlined is, in my view, limited. This does not mean that we do not wish to do all we can to improve the services there. I can confirm that we are providing the council with a total of £291,000 in highways maintenance incentive funding up to and including 20 2930 to maintain and improve local roads.

Alongside this, we have allocated £140,000 in active travel funding to support the development and construction of walking, wheeling and cycling facilities, as well as supporting network planning and community engagement. But I would like to reassure him that I'm committed to continuing the engagement between the government and the Isles of Scilly. It's of paramount importance to me and other Ministers that this continues. Officials from my department and Mhclg visited the Isles of Scilly last year and spoke to residents to gain a greater understanding of the challenges that people are facing, and this was followed by by a visit in July from Baroness Taylor.

These visits were valuable for our department, who have worked collaboratively to understand the challenges for people on the island, including economic difficulties and transport related issues. Both departments remain in regular contact with Isles of Scilly council, who are proactive in driving forward change now. I also recognise the impact that increasing costs of fares and transport operations have on the people of the Isles of Scilly. It remains the case that all air and sea services to and from the islands are commercially operated without public subsidy.

The threshold, as I have explained in correspondence with the hon. Gentleman for government intervention into such markets is extremely high and there are no current plans to intervene given that commercial services remain viable. I take his point around Scottish islands and the provision that they have, and the sort of the legislative hangover from previous government's time in office, but I would note that that situation is distinct in regard to the fact that the services cannot operate on a commercial basis. I would like to reassure the hon.

Member that policy is in place whereby if any air transport routes were to be at risk of being lost, we would assess whether intervention was needed to ensure that the vital links between the island and mainland are maintained through the department's existing public service obligations. I also recognise that interisland boat services are vital for the Isles of Scilly community. However, for inclusion in the £3 national bus fare cap, as I have set out to the hon. Gentleman before, services have to meet the necessary criteria, including being an open bus service that allow all members of the public to board the English National Concessionary Travel Scheme is a statutory bus specific scheme and does not extend to maritime transport, though I do understand the hon.

Gentleman's concerns about the limitations of that framework. Local authorities do have discretion to offer concessions on other modes. I'm aware that the Isles of Scilly Council already provides a health pass, as well as a discretionary concession pass for ferry services. It's for the Isle of Scilly Steamship Group to decide whether to offer concessions, but I do take on board and I'll give way in a moment. The hon. Gentleman's very reasonably made point about the fiscal pressures being faced by the Council, and in that context, the remit of what concessionary offers they are able to provide.

That's certainly something that I will take away and reflect on as a result of our debate today. But in

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the meantime, I shall give way to the hon. Member. I'm very grateful to the Minister for giving way, and to a Minister for giving way, and to a certain extent, he's he's in part implied the the answer. But of course, he he's well aware that you course, he he's well aware that you can't drive a bus between the off islands to, to, to, to Saint Mary's. I mean, there might be some I mean, there might be some inventive way in which someone might be able to do do such a thing.

But in such circumstances, he must But in such circumstances, he must accept that F1 is looking for parity between the Isles of Scilly and the mainland. Then then one must recognise that you can't have an open bus. Yes, it's open to anyone using it, of course, but but but there are, there are, you know, boats which which do and launches which go between those, those islands. And surely there must be a

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way of finding a parallel which which can operate on the Isles of Scilly. Minister.

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Minister. And I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the hon. Member for his intervention, and I Member for his intervention, and I take both the point he makes now and the point he made earlier about the basic issue of equity for British citizens, irrespective of British citizens, irrespective of which part of the United Kingdom they live in. That being said, it's incumbent upon me in this incumbent upon me in this ministerial capacity to work within the framework of the regulations that have been set, and unfortunately, if they are too narrow to facilitate the interpretation that the hon.

Gentleman advises, we take. I'm afraid that is the reality of the situation, but that's why it is all the more important that we find ways to engage together to solve some of these challenges, and that's certainly something that I want to do. Following on from this debate. But I also just want to point briefly, Madam Deputy Speaker, to the point that last year, Artemis Technologies and other stakeholders, stakeholders have taken forward activity as a result of their successful bid to the department's Clean Maritime Demonstration Competition Fund round six.

The department provided £750,000 to enable a feasibility study to ascertain whether Artemis technology could provide a viable solution for an island route passenger service, particularly in the winter months when residents have no regularly scheduled water crossing. And we expect to hear the results of that very soon. I want to turn very briefly to the UK Emissions Trading Scheme. It will be extended to cover UK domestic voyages and all UK import emissions for vessels of 5000 gross tonnage and above from July 26th.

But I can assure the hon. Member that we have assessed that these criteria are not met for the Scillonian for the Scillonian III, both remain outside the scope of the. The UK ETS and the exemptions and thresholds will

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be reviewed in 2028. Yeah, really briefly, I'll give way. I'm grateful for that clarification. I'm sure that'll be very. That'll be music to the ears of the of the century company. But just going back to the point about our about Artemis, which you referred to, which is very exciting, and I congratulate the government and I congratulate the government for investing in that. Is there any indication of the kind of timescale indication of the kind of timescale that we may be talking about rollout, which which which may see benefits for the Isles of Scilly

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Minister. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Department, of course, wants to pursue these projects at pace. And if you wouldn't mind, I'll respond to the hon. Gentleman in writing with a more detailed timeline of with a more detailed timeline of when that rollout will begin. But, Madam Deputy Speaker, to conclude, the government is investing in the government is investing in roads, rail and buses and active travel projects across the country to connect people to jobs, to connect people to jobs, education and opportunities.

Our multi-year transport investments help support local authorities to drive economic growth and deliver on our plan for change. That does not mean that there are still challenges that we need to overcome. And I'd like to commit to working with the hon. Gentleman to make sure that we tackle them. For residents of the Isles of Scilly. I would like to sincerely thank him for securing this debate and allowing me to address the House about these very important issues. I know that the issues he's raised are of paramount importance to both him and his constituents, and I'm sure that he'll be able to cover this in more detail when he meets with Lord Hendy.

Lord Berkeley, Baroness Taylor and representatives from the Isles of Scilly Council tomorrow morning. I look forward to closely working with him in delivering better transport provision and improved connectivity for everyone in his constituency and right across the United Kingdom.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Hey. The question is that this House do now adjourn. As many people say, do now adjourn. As many people say, I the ayes have it, the ayes have
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