House of Commons
Prayers
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Oral Answers to Questions
(10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Victoria Atkins)
May I start by wishing the hon. Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting) a speedy recovery?
We are taking a wide-ranging approach to alcohol harms. Some £27 million has been invested in specialist alcohol care teams in a quarter of hospitals with the highest need, and we have published the first ever UK-wide clinical guidelines on harmful drinking and alcohol dependence, as well as providing around £300 million in funding to 75 local authorities through the family hubs and Start for Life programme. Family hubs funded through that programme are encouraged to provide full wrap-around support for families, which may include alcohol support services.
Sara Britcliffe
To the Government’s credit, they are currently putting money into addiction services. However, at the same time, there is no national strategy for children of alcohol-dependent parents. That has not always been the case. Between 2017 and 2021, there were local and national helpline services funded through a national strategy. Will the Secretary of State meet me to discuss this matter, as the children in these awful situations are some of the most vulnerable in society?
Victoria Atkins
May I thank my hon. Friend for her care and also for sharing her experiences on this subject? Through the drugs strategy, we have committed an extra £532 million of funding over three years to improve alcohol and drug treatment services, with £15.7 million invested in Lancashire. Last year, we saw a further £2.8 million invested nationally in line with guidance for the extra drugs strategy funding, which allows local authorities to fund targeted services for parents in need of treatment and support for their children and families. I will, of course, be happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss this further.
Mr Sheerman
I have turned over a new leaf, Mr Speaker.
May I urge the Secretary of State to take this issue very seriously, to direct much more social media at young people and to get into schools the message about the real damage that can be done to the entire life of a child if the mother is drinking alcohol during pregnancy?
Victoria Atkins
I thank the hon. Gentleman for bringing some insight into how we can best reach families. Of course, it is not just mums, but fathers or carers who can have a huge impact on our children. That is why the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Dame Andrea Leadsom), is investing so much energy and commitment in our family hubs. We believe that they can be the centre for families to make the very best start to a child’s life.
Sarah Green (Chesham and Amersham) (LD)
The Minister for Social Care (Helen Whately)
Discharging people on time is better for them and frees up hospital beds. We are changing how our health system works to do that: joining up health and social care and care transfer hubs; helping people to recover at home, with more than 10,000 new virtual ward beds; and investing in social care. And it is working. Last month, delayed discharges were down 9% compared with the end of December 2022 despite almost 1,000 extra urgent admissions to hospitals every day in December.
Sarah Green
Nearly one in six beds in my local healthcare trust in Buckinghamshire continues to be occupied by patients fit for discharge. A recent King’s Fund report found that the Government’s current practice of providing one-off funding to reduce delay, while welcome, comes with insufficient advance notice to allow for effective planning. What steps is the Minister’s Department taking to ensure the best use of this funding?
Helen Whately
One reason we distributed discharge funding back in April last year was to give more advance notice to organisations, so that they could put in place what is needed to speed up discharges. I say to the hon. Lady that our plan is working. That is why, in her own trust, discharges at the end of December were down by a third compared with the previous year.
Will Quince (Colchester) (Con)
I note the progress that my hon. Friend referenced, but delayed discharges are still a major issue. Patient flow through a hospital is a critical factor, especially at the front door through emergency departments. We know the role that electronic bed management systems can play in helping that flow. What steps is my hon. Friend taking to ensure that more hospitals roll out that technology?
Helen Whately
My hon. Friend is right. I know how much work he did when he had oversight of urgent and emergency care services, which included his contribution to our urgent and emergency care recovery plan that was published almost a year ago. That plan included a host of steps to improve the flow through hospitals, including investment in bed management systems, as he described. The plan is working, which is why we are improving the flow through hospitals and seeing reductions in delayed discharges.
Mr Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Ind)
The Minister for Health and Secondary Care (Andrew Stephenson)
NHS data shows that we have delivered early on our manifesto commitment to have an extra 50,000 NHS nurses, with the number of nurses working in our NHS increasing from around 301,000 in 2019 to 357,000 today. That has been achieved through boosting training and education routes, ethically recruiting internationally and taking actions to improve retention. Measures such as the health and care visa introduced in 2020 support international recruitment.
Mr Roberts
I thank the Minister for his answer. As he knows, the national health service would completely collapse without the input and expertise of clinical staff from around the world. One barrier to those people coming to help us are the high fees for applying for permanent residency. Some nurses from countries such as India and the Philippines are having to take out expensive loans just to feel like they are welcome and able to stay in our country. I have presented a private Member’s Bill to exempt NHS clinical staff from paying those high fees to become residents. Will the Minister support the Bill and work with his Home Office colleagues to find a way to make that a reality for those people who work so hard in our health service?
Andrew Stephenson
I join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to the enormous contribution made by internationally recruited staff to our NHS. As he will know, immigration policy and fees are a matter for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. However, our long-term workforce plan supports international recruitment. In addition to the new visa route, we are exempting health and care staff from the immigration health surcharge.
Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister will know that without our fantastic workforce, the NHS would not work. I pay tribute to all those hard-working nurses in all our hospitals and care centres, including at St Thomas’ Hospital in my constituency. Does the Minister recognise that in addition to recruiting staff we have to look at retaining staff, who talk about the workload, their mental wellbeing and the fact that the cost of living is having a big impact on them? Does the Minister agree that the Government need to come forward with a wide-ranging plan on addressing workforce planning, pay, training, staff wellbeing and retention?
Andrew Stephenson
I completely agree with the hon. Lady, which is why this Government became the first Government ever to introduce a long-term workforce plan. Retention is one of the key pillars of the long-term workforce plan, and we are already seeing that deliver the result of keeping more staff in our NHS.
Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD)
Giles Watling (Clacton) (Con)
Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Dame Andrea Leadsom)
I am determined to ensure that everybody who needs NHS dental care can receive it. We have already implemented a package of reforms to improve access and provide fairer remuneration for dentists. That has had an effect, with 1.7 million more adults being seen, 800,000 more children being seen and a 23% increase in NHS activity in the past year. We know we need to do much more, and our dentistry recovery plan will be published shortly, setting out a big package of change.
Layla Moran
I listened carefully to what the Minister said. That change has not come to Oxfordshire, for sure—it is in a dire state. An Oxford resident wrote to me saying that when his NHS practice closed, he rang a dozen others across the county. Each one said they were offering NHS services but, in fact, they were not; they were only offering private care. In this cost of living crisis, people simply cannot afford that. As a result, they are waiting in A&E rather than getting treatment, and that ends up in their having oral surgery. What is the Minister doing now to improve the situation in Oxfordshire and across the country?
Dame Andrea Leadsom
I am incredibly sympathetic to what the hon. Lady says. In fact, in Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire and Berkshire West integrated care board, the number of adults seen by an NHS dentist rose in the 24 months to June 2023 from 448,000 to 485,000, with a similar increase in the percentage of children seen. The situation is improving, but I completely agree with her that we need to do more, and we will be coming forward shortly with a big package of dental recovery plan reforms.
Giles Watling
I thank my right hon. Friend for her answer. Following my very productive meeting with her only a few days ago, will she confirm that NHS England locally has finally been unblocked and that my constituents in Clacton will soon benefit from more dentists practising on NHS patients?
Dame Andrea Leadsom
As my hon. Friend will know, this is a local matter, and it is for his ICB to determine whether it wishes to support the excellent pilot proposal for overseas dental students in Clacton. At the same time, it needs to ensure that its actions are compliant with current legislation and within the delegation agreement with NHS England. I have just written to my hon. Friend about that, and my letter should address his concerns, but of course I would be happy to see him again if he has any further questions.
Rachael Maskell
We were promised “before the summer”, we were promised “after the summer”, we were promised “before Christmas”, we were promised “soon” and now we have been promised “shortly”. The reality is that Labour has a plan and the Government have not. In York, we cannot get an NHS dentist either. Blossom Family Dental Care is just handing back its contract. My constituents have nowhere to go. What is the Minister going to do to ensure that my constituents can access NHS dentistry?
Dame Andrea Leadsom
As I said to the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla Moran), I absolutely understand the challenge for some people. The situation has improved over the last year. Since the covid pandemic, where almost every dentist had to stop working altogether, we have not seen the recovery we want. We are putting in plans—not a paper ambition like the one Labour has put forward, but significant reforms that will enable many more people to be seen by NHS dentists. I say gently to the hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) that a recent Health Service Journal article states that Humber and North Yorkshire ICB
“have indicated in board papers that dentistry funding will be squeezed to help them balance their books.”
I encourage her to talk to her ICB about that too.
Paul Bristow (Peterborough) (Con)
For new patients, accessing an NHS dentist in Peterborough is almost impossible. Should a new medical centre wish to establish a new NHS dental practice, doing so would require flexibility in units of dental activity rates and the ability to recruit dentists from overseas. Would the Minister give that effort her enthusiastic support and encourage NHS bosses to do the same?
Dame Andrea Leadsom
My hon. Friend is pushing against an open door. He may be aware that in 2023 we made some legislative changes to give the General Dental Council more flexibility to expand the registration options open to international dentists, tripling the capacity of three sittings of the overseas registration exam from August 2023 and increasing the number of sittings for the part 2 exam in 2024 from three to four. That will create an additional 1,300 places overall for overseas dentists aiming to work in the UK. We will also be bringing forward measures to enable dental therapists to work at the top of their training, which will expand the capacity. He is right that reform of the UDA is also required and we will be bringing forward our plans shortly.
Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op)
I want to share with Ministers the experience of Emma from Grimsby, who said:
“NHS dentistry is a joke in the town at the moment. Thankfully I managed to get an emergency appointment in Scunthorpe (after being offered one in Doncaster originally) and I’ve now been referred to hospital to have 3 wisdom teeth removed. My dentist closed at the onset of the pandemic and I’ve not been able to register with an NHS dentist since.”
What does the Minister have to say to Emma and the millions like her who cannot get an appointment when they need one?
Dame Andrea Leadsom
The hon. Lady is absolutely right to point that out. Emma has my absolute sympathy and apology for the fact that since the covid pandemic we have not seen the recovery of dentistry that we would have liked. I can tell her that in July 2022 we brought in significant reforms to encourage dentists to take on more NHS patients, but we recognise the need to do more. The long-term workforce plan will increase training places and the overseas registration will improve capacity, as will the changes to dental therapists’ programmes. All those things will improve the situation, but in the meantime we will be bringing forward our recovery plan very soon, which will immediately expand the incentives to NHS dentists.
Simon Lightwood (Wakefield) (Lab/Co-op)
The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Victoria Atkins)
Our plan includes opening 5,000 more beds, increasing ambulance capacity, expanding innovative services such as virtual wards and bringing forward covid and flu vaccinations for the most vulnerable. Thanks to the hard work of staff, NHS performance this winter has improved on last year, despite the impact of industrial action.
Simon Lightwood
I am sure the caveat to that was the word “shortly”. I have had constituents contact me in desperation regarding delays at Pinderfields Hospital in my constituency. They tell me they have waited hours in emergency care this winter for routine blood tests—literally all day in some cases—even while in extremely poor health. The Tories’ patchwork reforms and sticking-plaster politics are not fooling anyone. Does the Secretary of State not think that those dangerously long waiting times are a damning indictment of 14 years of Conservative mismanagement? What does she say to my constituents who are suffering right now?
Victoria Atkins
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is a fair man, and that, being so, he will point out to his constituents, when they call him with their issues, that ambulance response times for category 2 emergency incidents in his local area have in fact been over 30 minutes faster than last year. However, we accept of course that this is a two-year plan and will take time to meet our full ambitions. Interestingly, the latest figures show that we have provided £6.9 million from the community diagnostic centres fund for the development of a community diagnostic centre at Wakefield. Presumably he welcomes that Conservative innovation.
Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)
The pressure on services is acute this winter, as it is every year. So far, we have heard very little mention in these 20 minutes of the biggest headache facing trusts, integrated care boards, patients and, of course, the Prime Minister’s pledge to cut the waiting lists further. Given that the British Medical Association ballot on consultants’ action closes today, and that the dispute among doctors in training continues, can the Secretary of State update the House on her message to those voting today, and on where we are in wider industrial disputes, which are a drag anchor on the NHS right now?
Victoria Atkins
My hon. Friend is right to point out that we are in the final few hours of the consultants’ ballot on the pay reform programme that we have offered the British Medical Association. I very much hope that consultants will feel able to support that programme, because it is about bringing together the frankly quite bureaucratic system that they have to deal with at the moment, so that they are assessed in a shorter time with less bother and paperwork, while respecting their need to train and keep up their education and supporting professional activities commitments. I hope that they will agree with us on that. As I have said to the junior doctors committee from this Dispatch Box, should they return with reasonable expectations, we will, of course, reopen negotiations.
Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)
The Secretary of State has said that preparation for winter started last January, but 54% of A&E departments were still rated inadequate or needing improvement in December, exacerbating the winter crisis. What will she do differently this year to ensure that we do not have another winter crisis in 2024-25?
Victoria Atkins
Again, the plan that we laid out last year is having a real impact at local level on the services being deployed through our accident and emergency services. We have seen discharge rates improving, for example. We appreciate that there can be local differences, but the importance that we put on maintaining that flow through hospitals is critical to ensuring that the waiting lists and waiting times that the hon. Lady describes are reduced. However, I gently remind the Labour party that it has been running the NHS in Wales for some time now, and it is a great shame that the good people of Wales—[Interruption.] The good people of Wales are waiting longer for their treatment—[Interruption.] They are almost twice as likely—
Mr Speaker
Order. I am a little bothered, because we have a long way to go on the Order Paper. I call the SNP spokesperson.
Amy Callaghan (East Dunbartonshire) (SNP)
We cannot discuss winter pressures in the NHS without acknowledging workforce shortages. The Secretary of State is having to contend with new immigration policies from her Cabinet colleagues that prevent dependants from coming to the UK, meaning that we are asking people to come and care for our loved ones while they leave behind theirs. I imagine that she is frustrated that that is now another barrier to recruiting staff to our health and care sectors. Has she expressed those frustrations to her Cabinet colleagues?
Victoria Atkins
I genuinely want to work with the Scottish Government, because I am troubled, to put it bluntly, that Scotland has some of the worst health outcomes in western Europe. It has the worst level of drug death rates in Europe, the highest alcohol death rates in 14 years, and there was a fall in life expectancy for three years in a row. We offered to allow Scottish patients to receive lifesaving operations in England, but sadly, that offer has been declined. I remain genuinely willing to work with the Scottish Government to help them with their health service.
Sarah Edwards (Tamworth) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Maria Caulfield)
We are investing an extra £2.3 billion a year to expand mental health services in England, with the aim of enabling 2 million more people to access mental health support, including 345,000 more children and young people.
Sarah Edwards
Many constituents in Tamworth are coming to me in desperate need of support for their children. Those constituents include Kate, whose daughter is at crisis point and has been without a psychiatrist since November; Roger, who has been waiting 18 months for an autism referral for his daughter; and Jess, who has been waiting for an attention deficit hyperactivity disorder assessment for her son. Will the Minister explain what action she is taking so that children, parents and families in my constituency can get the support they need?
Maria Caulfield
Through the investment we are putting in, particularly in the hon. Lady’s local area, there are a number of initiatives to help support children and young people with their mental health. The Sandbox scheme, which is a funded NHS service, supports those in the south Staffordshire area; Malachi provides family support across Tamworth and east Staffordshire; and Combined Wellbeing, which is an online resource, covers north Staffordshire. There is also the Family Wellbeing Service, Action for Children for those aged five to 18 with mild to moderate mental health needs, and the Staffordshire Emotional Health and Wellbeing Service for those aged five to 18. I would recommend that the hon. Lady’s constituents look up those services, because we are funding them to improve mental health care for children in her local area.
George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)
The agony and damage of undiagnosed and untreated mental health conditions is nowhere more acute than in rural areas, where we see an epidemic of silent suffering. The Norfolk and Suffolk NHS Foundation Trust has long struggled with a series of management problems. I am sure the Minister has seen the recent report highlighting that between 2019 and 2022, we saw over 8,500 avoidable deaths—that is nearly 45 a week. Will she agree to meet me, other Norfolk and Suffolk MPs, and those affected to look at what is really going on here and make sure that we turn that trust into a beacon of the best mental health services, rather than the worst?
Maria Caulfield
I thank my hon. Friend for raising this issue. We were holding regular meetings with Norfolk and Suffolk MPs, the trust, the Care Quality Commission and NHS England, and with the new management team, that trust did appear to finally be turning things around. However, I am concerned to hear the points that my hon. Friend has raised. I am very happy to restart those meetings and will ask my office to arrange them as quickly as possible.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
The Minister for Social Care (Helen Whately)
Care is a skilled profession, and I want care workers to get the support and recognition they deserve. This month, we took the next step in our ambitious care workforce reforms, publishing the first ever national career structure for the care workforce alongside our new nationally recognised care qualification.
Clive Efford
Ambitious care workforce reforms—it is all blah, isn’t it? We have had 14 years of Conservative Government, and we have a crisis in every area of the NHS. Job insecurity, poor working conditions and low pay—one in five care workers is living in poverty—are all reasons why we have a recruitment and retention crisis in social care. Is not the truth that that is a damning indictment of 14 years of Conservative Government, and the only thing that is going to sort out social care and the crisis in recruitment and retention is a general election?
Helen Whately
I am actually really shocked by the way the hon. Member referred to the care workforce, with terms like “It is all blah”—very shocking. I am determined that care workers should get the recognition they deserve. We have a 10-year plan for social care, and it is working: the care workforce grew by over 20,000 last year, vacancies in social care are down, and retention is up. We are reforming social care so that it works as a career. That is why, as I said a moment ago—I wish the hon. Member had been listening—we have introduced the first ever career pathway for social care workers and a new national care qualification.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
But according to Care England and Hft, 54% of social care providers have increased their reliance on agency staff; 44% have turned down new admissions; and 18% have had to close services altogether. Labour’s fair pay agreements will ensure that staff in the sector are treated with the dignity and respect that will make them want to stay, but after 14 years, why do Ministers not have a proper plan to address the workforce crisis facing adult social care? Is it because it is a crisis of their making?
Helen Whately
We have a plan for the social care workforce, and it is working. The social care workforce increased by over 20,000 last year, and it is still going up. But I will take no lectures from the hon. Member. In fact, his hon. Friend the Member for Bristol South (Karin Smyth), early this morning on television, made it clear that Labour does not have a plan for social care—or if it does, it is clear that it will cost a lot of money and is yet another unfunded Labour plan.
Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Maria Caulfield)
I assure my right hon. Friend that this Government are committed to improving men’s health. That is why, in November, we announced a suite of measures, including a £16 million fund for a new prostate cancer screening trial, and the recruitment of a men’s health ambassador. We have also launched our men’s health taskforce to tackle the biggest health issues facing men.
Sir David Evennett
I thank the Minister for that answer, and I would urge her to continue to make men’s health a top priority. In particular, can she look at how we can detect prostate cancer better and sooner? It is the most common cause of male cancer in the United Kingdom, and anything that can be done to reduce that number will be most welcome.
Maria Caulfield
I thank my right hon. Friend and male colleagues on the Government Benches, including my hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Nick Fletcher), who are fighting so hard to improve men’s health. He is absolutely right: 12,000 men a year die from prostate cancer. That is why we are investing in the £16 million prostate cancer trial called Transform, using methods such as MRI to detect prostate cancer rather than PSA, which can be inaccurate. Thousands of men will be recruited. We are hoping that the trial will start in the spring, with recruitment in the autumn, including the recruitment of black men, who are disproportionately affected by prostate cancer.
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
Does the Minister agree, however, that the information she has just given about why screening for prostate cancer does not happen for men is based on a study that is 20 years old? There are 12,000 deaths a year—it is the biggest killer among men, and the second biggest killer among all people—yet here is this evil cancer for which there is no screening programme whatsoever. Will she take steps to update current NHS guidance to ensure that all those at high risk of prostate cancer receive a targeted early detection service? I think she has hinted that she may be doing that, but will she finally introduce mass screening for prostate cancer? It is the only cancer without specifically commissioned early diagnosis work, and men are dying unnecessarily because of the failure to bring this in.
Maria Caulfield
We have more than hinted: we have just announced a £16 million pilot study of prostate cancer screening. We have a plan to tackle those 12,000 deaths a year, and it will work, because until now we have not had a diagnostic test. PSA is not a sensitive test in all prostate cancers: there are many men with prostate cancer who do not express PSA. That is why the Transform study, using detection tools such as MRI, will be trialled, and if they are effective, such tools will be rolled out across the country.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Victoria Atkins)
We are investing an additional £165 million a year to improve maternity and neonatal care, rising to £186 million a year from April. This will increase the number of midwifery posts and improve the quality of care that mothers and babies receive. As of October last year, there were 23,100 full-time equivalent midwives working in NHS trusts and other core organisations in England, which is more than 1,000 more than a year ago and 3,500 more than in 2010.
Kerry McCarthy
I thank the Secretary of State for that response. The Royal College of Midwives estimates that there is a shortage of around 2,500 full-time midwives working in the NHS. I know that at first hand from Cossham Hospital in my constituency, which has a wonderful birth centre, but it has been closed for most of the last few years, because it simply cannot get the midwives to staff it—they have to go elsewhere where more serious cases need to be dealt with. What is she doing specifically about the retention of midwives? I know that student numbers are, thankfully, coming up, but a lot of midwives are choosing to leave the profession because there is not enough flexibility in their work.
Victoria Atkins
I think we all agree that a career as a midwife is just one of the most rewarding and fulfilling careers that one can hope for. That is why we have placed such priority on retention in the long-term workforce plan that we launched last year. The national retention programme for midwifery and nursing has prioritised five actions to support staff retention, including menopause guidance, because we know that that can be an issue for midwives, and valuing them and their contribution is also a key objective of NHS England’s three-year plan for maternity services.
Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)
As well as recruitment and retention, training matters. Anglia Ruskin University has a campus in Chelmsford and is the provider of the largest number of health and social care degrees in the country, training midwives, nurses and, since the medical school opened, doctors. Will the Secretary of State back the campaign to expand the medical school in Chelmsford so that we can train even more local people to work in our local NHS?
Victoria Atkins
I thank my right hon. Friend for raising her local college, which does amazing work for the whole of the NHS as well as in her local area. I may have to retain a discreet silence over that particular application but I know that if any Member is sure to advocate effectively for their local area, it is my right hon. Friend.
Abena Oppong-Asare (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab)
Recruiting and retraining more NHS staff is crucial if women are to get gynaecology, obstetric and maternity care. I would like to share the story of Sandy Simmons. She was told 11 months ago that she needed surgery for a uterine prolapse; today, after nearly a year of pain, she is still waiting. Labour candidates such as Keir Cozens in Great Yarmouth are speaking up for women like Sandy and the 905 women waiting more than a year for treatment in Norfolk and Norwich University Hospital. Will the Secretary of State apologise to these women—or, like the Prime Minister, will she just walk away?
Victoria Atkins
I was genuinely delighted to welcome the hon. Lady to the Government’s women’s health summit last week to announce the consolidation, and indeed the improvement, of the women’s health strategy that this Government have launched. We saw significant success last year with hormone replacement therapy improvements and she knows, because she attended the summit, that I have just announced a £50 million research fund looking at maternity disparities and also research into female-specific conditions. Any concern she has about operation times she should take up with the local trust and it will perhaps tell her what impact industrial action has had, sadly, on elective surgery.
Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con)
The Minister for Health and Secondary Care (Andrew Stephenson)
I know this is an issue close to my right hon. Friend’s heart and pay tribute to her for her work as vice-chairman of the all-party group on radiotherapy. The pandemic has of course presented a real challenge to delivering the Government target to diagnose 75% of stageable cancers at stage 1 or stage 2 by 2028, but I am pleased to be able to tell the House that we are coming through that and last year diagnosed more cancers at stage 1 and stage 2 than ever before.
Theresa Villiers
Cancer Research UK has published an ambitious plan, “Longer, better lives”, which reminds us that for some cancer patients just a few weeks of delay can make the difference between whether they can be offered curative treatment or just palliative care. Will the new diagnostic centres being opened by the Government, including at Finchley Memorial Hospital, bring waiting times down and secure that early diagnosis that is so important to surviving cancer?
Andrew Stephenson
My right hon. Friend makes an important point. Diagnostic checks are a key part of the cancer pathway and the 150 community diagnostic centres opened by this Government, including the one at the Finchley Memorial Hospital, will provide earlier diagnostic tests, support earlier diagnosis and bring down waiting times, benefiting millions of patients. These centres have delivered more than 6 million additional tests for all elective activity since July 2021 and we expect the Finchley Memorial Hospital CDC to provide over 126,000 tests for elective care in the next financial year.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Minister for that response. Research and development is very important; it means we can find more cures for cancer. My father, who is dead and gone, survived cancer on three occasions; that happened because of advances in finding cures. What is being done to work alongside those in research and development to ensure that even more cancers can be cured and we can go from a 50% rate to perhaps a 60% or even 70% rate for those who live longer?
Andrew Stephenson
I was delighted that one of my first visits in the new year was to Northern Ireland to see some of the life sciences companies, particularly those based around Queen’s University Belfast. That sector in Northern Ireland is flourishing. We are keen to support companies working in research and bring together world-leading universities such as Queen’s with the private sector and the NHS to deliver improved outcomes for all patients across every part of the United Kingdom.
Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab)
The Minister for Health and Secondary Care (Andrew Stephenson)
I know this is an important issue for the hon. Lady in her role as chair of the sickle cell and thalassaemia all-party parliamentary group. We are working hard to provide the best possible care to those living with sickle cell disease. That includes boosting Ro subtype blood donation numbers, identifying improvements in clinical pathways and delivering world-leading treatments, such as the new blood-matching genetic test announced by NHS England yesterday, which will reduce the risk of side effects and offer more personalised care.
Janet Daby
I congratulate NHS England on the launch of the new blood-matching genetic test for sickle cell patients, but it has been more than two years since the “No One’s Listening” report, which made the key recommendation that sickle cell patients receive pain relief within 30 minutes of attending accident and emergency. Why is that still not happening for sickle cell patients, and would the Minister like to meet me and the Sickle Cell Society to discuss how to achieve that?
Andrew Stephenson
I of course would be happy to meet the hon. Lady and the Sickle Cell Society to look at how we can improve patient experiences and ensure that all patients benefit from timely access to the medications they need. I am delighted that she welcomes yesterday’s announcement. It is an example of how the NHS can bring forward world-firsts and is leading the way to transform patient care and improve patient outcomes.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
The Minister for Social Care (Helen Whately)
Almost a year ago, we published our urgent and emergency care recovery plan. The NHS has already halved the waiting times for category 2 ambulances and brought down waits in A&E. We are determined to cut NHS waits, and our plan is working.
Mark Pawsey
Rugby is one of the fastest growing places in the UK. While we have had additional services introduced at our local Hospital of St Cross, my constituents have insufficient accident and emergency provision. Thousands of local residents have signed my petition for doctor-led accident and emergency care at the Hospital of St Cross. I know it is a matter for the integrated care board, but will the Minister give her support? As a previous Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Will Quince) and the previous Secretary of State have visited in the past few months, and I invite this Minister to do likewise.
Helen Whately
I thank my hon. Friend for his invitation. He has been a tireless campaigner on this issue on behalf of his constituents. The future of healthcare is about getting people the care that they need, where they need it and when they need it, and Rugby is no different. New local NHS services are bringing care closer to home in his area, such as the new imaging unit at the Hospital of St Cross that opened in September.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
Access to urgent and emergency care can be greater facilitated when greater protection is offered to staff, particularly the many who suffer attacks in emergency departments at hospitals across the United Kingdom—often by people who are intoxicated.
Helen Whately
The hon. Member makes an important point. The safety of our staff in the national health service is important, including those in urgent and emergency care departments, as well as the ambulance services. He is absolutely right to point that out, and it is never acceptable for anyone, including patients, to be violent towards staff.
Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Maria Caulfield)
We are investing a record amount in NHS mental health services, committing £2.3 billion extra a year for the expansion and transformation of services in England, which will enable 2 million more people to access mental health support.
Jeff Smith
If only the reality was that rosy. The entire sector is calling out for reform of the Mental Health Act 1983. With our mental health services in crisis, why did the Government scrap the long-awaited and overdue mental health Bill, which could have started to alleviate pressures on trusts by reducing the numbers of people detained inappropriately and making services more fit for purpose? Is it not true that we need a Labour Government to take action on this issue?
Maria Caulfield
I have news for the hon. Gentleman, because we have a plan and it is working. Our investment of £143 million into crisis support is showing early evidence of reducing admissions—admissions are 8% lower. With the crisis telephone services, which are available 24/7, we have admissions down 12%. More importantly, detentions under the Mental Health Act are 15% lower. We have a plan, and it is working.
Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Victoria Atkins)
We have made progress against our target to reduce learning disability and autism in-patient numbers in England by 50% since 2015. For people with a learning disability without an autism diagnosis, there has been a 58% net reduction; for people with a learning disability who are autistic, the net reduction is 35%.
Dr Cameron
I thank the Secretary of State for that comprehensive answer. As chair of the all-party parliamentary group for disability, I have been hearing from organisations such as Mencap that remain concerned that people with learning difficulties are disproportionately detained for five to 10 years and for over 10 years. Will she reassure those organisations that the “Building the right support” action plan will continue to progress the great work that is being done?
Victoria Atkins
I thank my hon. Friend for her interest and, of course, her many years working as a clinical psychologist. She brings that experience to the Chamber. National commissioning guidance to integrated care boards was published in November. It sets out that a mental health in-patient stay for a person with a learning disability
“should be for the minimum time possible, for assessment and/or treatment which can only be provided in hospital”.
In overseeing implementation of the action plan going forwards, the “Building the right support” delivery board will maintain focus on quality of care and on reducing long stays.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
It is vital for the Government to do more to move autistic people and people with learning disabilities out of in-patient units and back to their communities. Recently, in the trial of staff at Whorlton Hall, we saw staff who were cruel and uncaring. Delivering sentences, the judge said that Whorlton Hall was an
“unpredictable and…frightening place to live”.
Is it not time for the Government to close down those units and move the majority of people into the community?
Victoria Atkins
I thank the hon. Lady for raising that point. We were all dismayed and upset to see the experiences of residents in those units, and we saw the correct criminal outcomes—if I am allowed to say that—for those involved in those assaults. A review is going on as to how those issues are affecting the estate as a whole, but we are clear that in-patient stays should happen only when they are strictly necessary. We must be mindful that clinicians will be taking many situations into account, including not just the safety of the patient but the safety of the wider community.
Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Victoria Atkins)
Women’s health needs are often overlooked and under-researched. Through our women’s health strategy, the Government are changing that. Last year, we made menopause a priority, helping almost half a million women get hormone replacement therapy for less than £20 a year. This year, we are building on that work and will have a women’s health hub in every integrated care board area in England. We will promote research into conditions that only affect women, such as endometriosis and lobular breast cancer, and those that affect women differently from men, such as heart attack symptoms.
We have also launched the first research challenge—worth £50 million—to tackle maternity disparities that have no place in modern Britain. Following the brave campaigns of my hon. Friends the Members for Hyndburn (Sara Britcliffe) and for Stafford (Theo Clarke), by March we will make dedicated maternal mental and physical healthcare available to every woman in England.
Ruth Cadbury
I recently met two constituents with experience of invasive lobular breast cancer. Invasive lobular carcinoma is the second most common form of breast cancer, but it is not generally picked up by mammograms, and it behaves differently from other breast cancers. However, lobular breast cancer has been understudied and underfunded, and it urgently needs research funding. Will the Secretary of State tell the House what specific actions her Government are taking to address those gaps? Will she also reply to the Lobular Moon Shot Project, to which she—
Victoria Atkins
I gently remind the hon. Lady about the statement that I just gave. Last week we held the women’s health summit, at which I announced that we are encouraging research into conditions such as lobular breast cancer. I made that announcement because of two amazing women I met recently who were living with the condition. They were introduced to me by my right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Sir Jeremy Quin) and my right hon. Friend—
Mr Speaker
Order. Please can I just say that these are topicals? I have got to get through a big list, and lots of Members are standing. We need short, punchy questions, and the same with answers.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
Victoria Atkins
I would be delighted to meet my hon. Friend to discuss that. As always, he is an excellent advocate for his constituency, and I will enjoy listening to the results of his survey.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
Mike Reader, Labour’s candidate for Northampton South, shared with me the horrific experience of Stanley, who had severe abdominal pain and called an ambulance, only to be told it would take hours and to go to A&E. There, he was told to wait for assessment on a patio chair outside. It was 3°. Who is to blame?
The Minister for Social Care (Helen Whately)
I am very sorry to hear of the experience of that specific constituent. Because of challenges that the NHS faces, particularly our urgent and emergency care services, almost a year ago we set out our urgent and emergency care recovery plan, to speed up care for people in A&E and reduce waits. That plan is working. We are seeing ambulances get to people quicker, and people treated quicker in A&E.
Andrew Gwynne
That is not a one-off. Why will the Minister not take a shred of responsivity for the chaos that her party has caused our NHS? The last Labour Government achieved the shortest waits and the highest patient satisfaction in NHS history. The Conservatives have delivered the longest waits and the lowest patient satisfaction in history. Let us have that general election, so that she can defend her abysmal record to the public.
Helen Whately
The hon. Gentleman obviously was not listening to my answer; in fact, he was reading aloud. Our urgent and emergency care plan is working. It is reducing rates in A&E, and ambulances are getting to people faster. Meanwhile, I am sorry to say that in the Labour-run NHS in Wales, more than half of patients are waiting more than four hours in A&E.
Andrew Lewer (Northampton South) (Con)
Victoria Atkins
We understand how worrying the possibility of medication shortages can be. There is a supply issue with riluzole 50 mg tablets, caused by a supplier experiencing manufacturing issues. We have a well-established procedure in place to deal with such issues, and are working with the industry, the NHS and others to resolve it as quickly as possible. We have contacted alternative suppliers and have secured sufficient volumes of stock.
Amy Callaghan (East Dunbartonshire) (SNP)
Cancer Research UK has found that too much UV radiation is the third biggest cause of cancer across these isles. Does the Secretary of State recognise that cost is a barrier for people wishing to protect their skin from the sun, and will she commit to having conversations with Cabinet colleagues to remove VAT on sun protection products, which will help protect NHS budgets and ultimately save lives?
Victoria Atkins
We see that as part of a much wider campaign to ensure that we treat the sun safely, by reducing the amount of time we spend in the sun, particularly during peak hours of the day in summertime. I keep all these discussions in play with my Treasury colleagues.
Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Dame Andrea Leadsom)
My hon. Friend is a great advocate for her community, and I pay tribute to her for working with determination to see more access to dentistry in Cornwall. She is right to do so. We have a plan, which is almost ready. I urge her to wait just a little longer. She, like all colleagues across the House, will see significant and real measures to improve access to dentistry.
Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)
The Minister for Health and Secondary Care (Andrew Stephenson)
PAs and AAs are an essential part of the reform piece to the long-term workforce plan. I note that the order was passed by the House last night without a Division, so I am grateful for that cross-party support. We are working with the General Medical Council, the British Medical Association and others to ensure that the regulations are fit for the purpose. We look forward to the GMC launching its consultation on the fine print of the regulations very soon.
Mrs Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con)
As my constituents have to travel to Tamworth, Burton or Derby for diagnostic tests, can I encourage the Secretary of State to look favourably on a bid for a new much-needed community diagnostic centre in South Derbyshire?
Victoria Atkins
I thank my hon. Friend sincerely for her question. The good news is that community diagnostic centres have now delivered over 6 million additional tests and scans since July 2021 thanks to the hard work of NHS staff, but I will of course be delighted to meet her to discuss her plans for her local constituency.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
Andrew Stephenson
The NHS long-term plan commits to a number of key ambitions to improve care and outcomes for individuals suffering from cardiovascular disease, including enhanced diagnostic support in the community, better personalised planning, and increasing access to cardiac rehabilitation. Those ambitions will support the delivery of the aim to prevent 150,000 heart attacks, strokes and dementia cases by 2029.
Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)
The single biggest concern my constituents raise about healthcare is access to GPs, especially in Blackrod and Westhoughton. What more can my right hon. Friend do to ensure we have better GP access?
Dame Andrea Leadsom
I am pleased to tell my hon. Friend that our NHS long-term plan sets out a real-terms increase of at least £4.5 billion a year for primary and community care by 2023-24. We now have over 2,000 more full-time equivalent GPs working in our NHS, and we have had the amazing achievement of more than 50 million more appointments per year, beating our target several months early. Things are improving significantly, and there are many more measures I would be delighted to talk to him privately about.
Samantha Dixon (City of Chester) (Lab)
Andrew Stephenson
The 62-day backlog has fallen by 27% since its peak in May 2020. We know there is more to be done, and that is why we are bringing forward more measures as early as possible. In April 2023, more than nine in 10 patients—90%—started their first cancer treatment within one month of a decision to treat.
James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con)
Many of my constituents who use Regis Medical Centre have been left angry and frustrated by the botched implementation of an Anima booking system, leading to them being unable to get an appointment or the treatment they need. Will the Secretary of State meet me to discuss how we can learn the lessons from that botched implementation and make sure trust in that GP surgery is restored?
Sarah Dyke (Somerton and Frome) (LD)
Victoria Atkins
We are ensuring that community pharmacists have an even greater role in primary care than they have already. For example, we saw the first stage of the roll-out of Pharmacy First in December, with blood pressure checks and contraceptive care being rolled out. I am very pleased that we are on track to deliver the full roll-out of Pharmacy First by the end of the month.
Sir Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con)
The colour of someone’s skin should not have an impact on the reliability of medical devices, but we know that that is what happened during the pandemic for many black and Asian patients. When I was the Health Secretary, I commissioned an independent review of the equity of medical devices from Professor Dame Margaret Whitehead. Her report was handed to the Department in June last year, but the Department has not yet published it or responded to it. I know that my right hon. Friend cares about health inequalities as much as I do, so may I ask her to publish the report, along with a full Government response, as a matter of urgency?
Victoria Atkins
I thank my right hon. Friend for commissioning that vital piece of work. I am giving the matter my closest attention, and I hope very much to be in a position to respond to his points in due course.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Maria Caulfield)
As the hon. Lady will know, we are investing more in mental health services for young people in particular and, indeed, for those with eating disorders. We are seeing more young people more quickly than ever before, but if the hon. Lady wishes to raise a local issue with me, I shall be happy to meet her and discuss it.
Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)
The opening of a new block of operating theatres next month marks the latest investment in Torbay Hospital, but it is, of course, a prelude to the major rebuilding work. When does the Secretary of State plan to deliver the next update on the progress of that project?
Victoria Atkins
I am delighted that the House is as happy about that expansion as the hon. Gentleman and I are. I will meet him to go through his plans, because I know how carefully he has campaigned for this important asset in his constituency.
Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab)
Victoria Atkins
The hon. Lady is aware of my knowledge not only of that hospital, but of her local area. I will look into this matter for her, because I want to ensure that the good people of Lancashire, Mr Speaker, are looked after as we would all hope and expect.
Sir Jeremy Quin (Horsham) (Con)
I warmly welcome what my right hon. Friend said last week about encouraging research on lobular breast cancer, and I look forward to meeting the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, the hon. Member for Lewes (Maria Caulfield), shortly to work out how we can operationalise what is her clear ambition.
Victoria Atkins
I thank my right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Dehenna Davison) for bringing two amazing women to talk to me about the impact of lobular cancer. For the benefit of Members on both sides of the House, last week we sent out a “Dear colleague” letter and graphics about the women’s health strategy so that we can all help our constituents to understand what this Conservative Government are doing to ensure that the healthcare of women is faster, simpler and fairer.
Action Against Houthi Maritime Attacks
(10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Prime Minister (Rishi Sunak)
Overnight, at my order, the Royal Air Force engaged in a second wave of strikes against Houthi military targets in Yemen. We did so because we continue to see, for instance in intelligence, an ongoing and imminent threat from the Houthis to UK commercial and military vessels and to those of our partners in the Red sea and the wider region.
I told the House last week that we would not hesitate to respond if the acts continued, in order to protect innocent lives and preserve the freedom of navigation, and that is what we have done. We acted alongside the United States, with support from Australia, Bahrain, Canada and the Netherlands. We acted on the same basis as on 11 January—fully in line with international law, in self-defence and in response to a persistent threat—and, and as with the first wave, the strikes were limited to carefully selected targets, with maximum care taken to protect civilian lives.
Attempting to counter every Houthi attack after it has been launched is simply not sustainable. We have already shot down dozens of missiles and drones targeted at civilian vessels and at the Royal Navy, and the Houthis have conducted at least 12 further attacks on shipping since 11 January, including just last night, shortly before our strikes were conducted. So we acted to further degrade their ability to mount such attacks.
Last week I gave the House our initial assessment of the first wave of strikes. Since then, we have seen further evidence that they were successful in degrading the Houthis’ military capability. Last night we hit two military sites just north of Sana’a, each containing multiple specific targets which the Houthis used to support their attacks on shipping.
I want to be very clear: we are not seeking a confrontation. We urge the Houthis, and those who enable them, to stop these illegal and unacceptable attacks. But if necessary, the United Kingdom will not hesitate to respond again in self-defence. We cannot stand by and allow these attacks to go unchallenged. Inaction is also a choice. With that in mind, and given the persistent nature of the threat, it was important to update the House again today. I listened carefully to right hon. and hon. Members last week, and we will give the House a chance for a full debate on our broader approach in the Red sea tomorrow.
We took extensive steps to address this threat to international security before taking military action. We launched Operation Prosperity Guardian in December with over 20 other countries. The international community issued repeated statements on 1 December, 19 December, 3 January and 12 January condemning the attacks and urging the Houthis to desist. On 10 January, the United Nations Security Council passed a resolution demanding that they stop the attacks. I think it is important to note that the internationally recognised Government of Yemen have also condemned the Houthis for their actions, accusing them of
“creating a conflict for propaganda”
serving only their own selfish ends.
As we saw in the House last week, Members are rightly keen to hear how this situation can be brought to an end. The answer must include the vital right to self-defence when we are attacked, but that is only one part of our wider response, which I want to say more about today. First, we are increasing our diplomatic engagement, because we recognise the deep concerns about, and the complexities of, the current situation. I spoke to President Biden about these issues last night. The Foreign Secretary will be in the region in the coming days, and he met his Iranian counterpart last week. He made it clear that they must cease supplying the Houthis with weapons and intelligence and use their influence to stop Houthi attacks.
Secondly, we must end the illegal flow of arms to the Houthi militia. We have intercepted weapons shipments in the region before, including components of the very missiles used by the Houthis today. This brings home the importance of maritime security in the region, and it includes working closely with our allies and partners to disrupt and deter the supply of weapons and components.
Thirdly, we will use the most effective means at our disposal to cut off the Houthis’ financial resources, where they are used to fund these attacks. We are working closely with the US on this and plan to announce new sanctions measures in the coming days.
Fourthly, we need to keep helping the people of Yemen, who have suffered so terribly as a result of the country’s civil war. We will continue to deliver humanitarian aid and to support a negotiated peace in that conflict, not just because it is the right thing to do but because we need to show the people of Yemen that we have no quarrel with them—as the Yemeni Government understand. This is our strategy and we will keep all other tools under close review as well.
I repeat that there is no link between our actions of self-defence in the Red sea and the situation in Israel and Gaza. Those who make that link do the Houthis’ work for them, and I want to be clear that those here at home who glorify the Houthis’ attacks are glorifying terrorism, plain and simple. They will be met with a zero-tolerance approach. All of that said, I would like to address the situation in Israel and Gaza directly because it remains at the forefront of Members’ minds. President Biden and I discussed this again yesterday and he shares my deep concerns about the situation and the terrible suffering and loss of civilian lives, so together we are working to establish a new aid route through the port of Ashdod.
The UK wants to see an end to the fighting in Gaza as soon as possible. We are calling for an immediate humanitarian pause to get aid in and hostages out, as a vital step towards building a sustainable, permanent ceasefire without a return to destruction, fighting and loss of life. To achieve that, Hamas must agree to the release of all hostages. They can no longer be in charge of Gaza. The threat from Hamas terror and rocket attacks must end, and an agreement must be in place for the Palestinian Authority to return to Gaza to provide governance, services and security. That pathway to peace should unite the whole House. I believe we are also united in support of a two-state solution.
Through all the complexity of the current situation, our principles hold firm: resolute in the face of threats, compassionate in support of those in need, and determined in maintaining stability, security and the rule of law. That is what our allies and partners have come to expect from the United Kingdom, and that is what we stand for.
I commend this statement to the House.
Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)
I thank the Prime Minister for the advance copy of his statement.
Labour said that we will judge further action against the Houthis on a case-by-case basis, so let me be clear that we back this targeted action to reinforce maritime security in the Red sea. The Houthi attacks must stop. They are designed to destabilise us, so we must stand united and strong. They bring danger to ordinary civilians working hard at sea, so we must protect those civilians. And they aim to disrupt the flow of goods, food and medicines, so we must not let them go unaddressed.
The professionalism and bravery of those serving on HMS Diamond and flying RAF Typhoons are both totally accepted and completely remarkable. Without them, Britain cannot be a force for good in the world.
This is, of course, the second set of strikes in which the UK has participated. The stated aim of the first set was to deter and degrade Houthi capability, but we now know that their attacks have continued. While we do not question the justification for action, it is right that the House hears more about its effectiveness. Labour, of course, recognises that strikes can reduce threat without eliminating it, and we recognise that military action is just one component of a wider diplomatic strategy. None the less, I ask the Prime Minister to set out his confidence that these strikes will be effective in reducing Houthi capabilities. As the situation has evolved, although we of course understand the clear legal basis for these actions, will the Prime Minister commit to restating and republishing the Government’s legal position?
Alongside the UK and the US, other countries have provided non-operational support for these strikes and maritime protection in the Red sea. Many more support the United Nations Security Council resolution that utterly condemns the Houthi attacks. What work is being done to hold together that coalition and, if possible, to enlarge it? The action that the UK takes must draw on the support of all those who care about international law. Given the special role that the UK plays in Yemen, will the Prime Minister set out the concrete steps, in addition to those in his statement, that we are taking to help the people of Yemen who have suffered terribly as a result of that country’s civil war?
The international community cannot allow itself to be divided, which is exactly what the Houthi backers in Tehran would love to see. On that note, can the Prime Minister update the House on whether his Government have given further consideration to the proscription of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps? We need every tool at our disposal to disrupt IRGC activities, and we must show Iran that it cannot pursue its ends by destabilising the entire region.
Like the Prime Minister, I totally reject the Houthi claims that attacking ships from around the world is somehow linked to the conflict in Gaza. These attacks do absolutely nothing for the Palestinian people. What is needed in Gaza is a humanitarian truce now, a sustainable ceasefire to stop the killing of innocent civilians, space for the return of all hostages, urgent humanitarian relief and a decisive step towards a two-state solution. Palestinian statehood is the inalienable right of the Palestinian people; it is not in the gift of a neighbour. Does the Prime Minister agree that a secure Israel alongside a viable Palestinian state is the only path to a just and lasting peace? We must stop those who sow division; we must do what we can to disrupt and deter the Houthis; and we must stay united and steadfast in defence of our values, our security and our right to self-defence. Labour will always act in the national interest, and we provide our full support for these necessary and proportionate strikes.
The Prime Minister
I thank the Leader of the Opposition for his statement and his support—I am grateful to him for that. He raises all the right questions about the action today, which I am happy to answer.
First, the right hon. and learned Gentleman asked about the effectiveness of strikes in deterring and precisely degrading capability. I am pleased to tell him that further evidence, after the initial statement I made last week, has demonstrated to us that the strikes last week were effective in degrading capability and all the intended targets were destroyed. I am also pleased to say that our initial evidence from last night’s strikes is also that all intended targets were destroyed, which demonstrates to us that, working with our allies, who have the same view, the strikes are working to degrade capability, even though, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman said, there may be a difference between reducing and eliminating. We are confident that what we are doing is working to degrade capability. The targets are specifically selected on the basis of intelligence; they are military sites that impact the security and safety of seafarers and shipping. To that end, I am confident that, as I said, the strikes are being carried out in a way that is effective in achieving their aim.
I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for acknowledging that the strikes sit within a wider strategy in the region to bring about an end to what we are seeing. The Foreign Secretary will be in the region this week, engaging extensively with our partners and allies on all the topics that the right hon. and learned Gentleman raised, and particularly ensuring that we can continue to make progress on a sustainable peace in Yemen. No doubt the Foreign Secretary will talk to our Saudi partners about that and, crucially, broaden the coalition of support for the action we have taken.
As I pointed to in my statement, multiple statements have been made by a wide coalition of countries from around the world in support of action. The right hon. and learned Gentleman can rest assured that we are continuing to expand that coalition of support, because the security of navigation and shipping impacts all countries, wherever they might be, not just in the Red sea. All of us have seen the consequences of the war in Ukraine on energy bills across the European continent and beyond, so I think people are very alive to the interconnectedness of the global economy and the importance of protecting freedom of navigation everywhere.
On the legal advice, my understanding was that we had published or were imminently about to publish a summary of the legal advice—I can happily give the right hon. and learned Gentleman that confirmation. I can also confirm to him that the basis for action remains the same as it was last time, but an update to that effect has been published or will shortly be published by the Attorney General.
Lastly, I will touch on the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s broader point. He is right to highlight the malign influence of Iran in the region. Obviously, we do not comment on ongoing decisions or processes relating to the proscription of organisations, but he can rest assured that we are alive to the risk and working closely with our allies, particularly the United States and our European allies, to jointly work out the most effective way of countering that influence. As I have said, the Foreign Secretary spoke to his counterpart last week, and we will continue to use all measures at our disposal to protect ourselves. We passed the National Security Act 2023 here in the UK and have already sanctioned the IRGC in its entirety.
More generally, on the specific action we have taken, I again thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for his support. We have taken limited, proportionate and, I believe, necessary action in self-defence. We will always reserve the right to do that to protect innocent lives and freedom of navigation. Our desired outcome, of course, is for the Houthis to desist and to de-escalate the situation. What they are doing is unacceptable and illegal, and the onus should be on them to stop it. But we will use all levers at our disposal, including diplomacy and sanctions, to achieve that objective.
Sir Jeremy Quin (Horsham) (Con)
I welcome what my right hon. Friend says about diplomatic and humanitarian efforts, and indeed cutting off the supply of arms. I particularly welcome what he says about the effectiveness of the strikes that have already taken place. However, does he agree that in order to protect civilian shipping, this may need to be a prolonged and persistent targeted campaign alongside our allies?
The Prime Minister
I thank my right hon. Friend for his question. I want to be absolutely clear that no decision has been taken to embark on a sustained campaign of the nature that he mentioned—these were limited strikes, specifically in response to threats that we perceived—but we do reserve the right to take action in self-defence, as I have said. Crucially, the military action is just one part of a broader strategy, including diplomacy, sanctions and other things; we will use all levers to bring about an end to the disruption and the illegality that the Houthis are causing.
Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)
Freedom of navigation is not a choice: it is a necessity, not least because of the impact there could be on all the people we are very fortunate to represent. As such, as a point of principle it is fair for the Government to use proportionate and robust action to defend that right to freedom of navigation. However, all of us in this Chamber need to be mindful of the opponent that we face in this regard. The Houthis have been under almost constant bombardment from Saudi Arabia for the best part of eight years; they did not get that message, so why are we so confident that they will get our message this time around?
That, of course, leads to the wider question: what is the ultimate strategy going forward, in relation not just to the Houthis but to the wider region? Over the past week, we have seen missile strikes in Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Syria and, of course, Yemen. In the meantime, we continue to see the complete destruction of Gaza and, of course, Hamas continue to obtain hostages. We need to understand the Government’s strategy to calm waters not just in the Red sea but right across the region. Surely that must begin with a ceasefire in Gaza.
The Prime Minister
As difficult as the situation is, to do nothing would also be a choice. I believe that would be the wrong choice because it would be tantamount to ceding control of a global, economically vital shipping route to a dangerous militant group that is backed by Iran, and it would put innocent lives at risk. The hon. Gentleman is right that the military action should sit within a broader strategy, which hopefully he can tell from my statement we are engaged in on all fronts.
On the hon. Gentleman’s point about Israel and Gaza, as I have made clear, no one wants to see this conflict go on for a moment longer than necessary. An immediate pause is necessary to get aid in and hostages out—that is what we have been calling for. The best outcome will be moving from that pause to a sustainable ceasefire, but, as I was clear about in my statement, a number of things need to happen for that to be possible, including the release of all the hostages by Hamas, Hamas no longer being in charge in Gaza and an agreement for the Palestinian Authority to return to Gaza to provide governance. That is a conversation we have been having, and we will continue to push for that, because I believe that will be the best outcome and it is one that is widely supported by, I would imagine, everyone in this House.
Mr Speaker
Just to help the House, some people were late, and we are only going to run this for an hour, so please try to help each other by being as quick as you can. I call the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee.
Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con)
I welcome the airstrikes, which were conducted solely to re-establish freedom of maritime movement. However, there are a number of Iranian proxies and allied groups operating across the middle east, and the hand of Iran is clear in their activities. Iran is the fundamental threat to UK security and to stability in the region. What is the strategic approach and intent to comprehensively reduce the threat that we face from all the proxies and allies, so that we do not end up playing whack-a-mole? Have we seen any opportunism from al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula or Daesh, who are also on the ground in Iran? Finally, as the Prime Minister touched on Gaza-Israel, please may I reiterate my request for the UK to launch a contact group for Palestine, so that we can launch track 2 negotiations to get some progress towards stability and a two-state solution?
The Prime Minister
The behaviour of the Iranian regime, including the actions of the IRGC, poses a significant threat to the safety and security of the United Kingdom and our allies, particularly given Iran’s direct threats against people here in the UK, as well as its destabilising influence in the region. We are alive to the threat, which is why we have already sanctioned more than 400 Iranian individuals, including the IRGC in its entirety. The National Security Act 2023 provides new measures for our police and security services to counter the hostile influence that we see.
The Foreign Secretary spoke to his Iranian counterpart last week, and we will continue that diplomacy this week. As I pointed out in my statement, we have previously interdicted the supply of Iranian missiles being smuggled to the Houthis, last year and the year before. We need to ensure that we work with our allies to do that, because the flow of those weapons to the Houthis is critical to their ability to carry out these attacks. Working with our allies, we should try to do everything we can to stop that.
Ed Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD)
I thank the Prime Minister for his statement. As I made clear last week, the Liberal Democrats accept the case for limited strikes against the Houthis, as long as they remain limited. As the Prime Minister updates the House for the second time on this matter, there is remarkably little clarity about what the next steps are and when the UK’s objectives will be judged to have been fulfilled. Nor has the Prime Minister sufficiently addressed how he plans to avoid regional escalation in this most fragile of regions. I thank him for agreeing that the House can debate this matter tomorrow, but will he not give the House the opportunity to vote on this matter, not least given the huge cross-party support for limited strikes? That would surely strengthen the signal he intends to give.
The Prime Minister
What is escalatory is the Houthis ramping up attacks on commercial shipping, launching missiles and drones against US and UK warships, and threatening allied bases in the region. I have been very clear that military action was a last resort. We provided warning after warning, including with allies and at the UN Security Council. The Houthis had, and continue to have, the ability to prevent this by stopping their illegal attacks. As I pointed out earlier, there are also risks to inaction because it would damage international security and the global economy, and send a message that British vessels, lives and interests are fair game, none of which I think is acceptable.
I am pleased that the House will have an opportunity to debate the matter tomorrow but, as I said, we reserve the right to take action in a limited, proportionate and legal way in self-defence. That is the right thing and the country would expect nothing less from the Government.
Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)
I welcome the Prime Minister’s statement and action. On the issue of Iran, can he say what contingency planning has been done in the eventuality that Houthi attacks in the Red sea are followed up by IRGC attacks in the Persian gulf?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend is right to point out the link between Iran and the Houthis. We are alive to that and I discussed it with President Biden last night. My right hon. Friend will know that we have assets in the region and we are working closely with our allies to ensure maritime security, whether that is by interdicting arms or more generally ensuring the freedom of navigation. Diplomacy will also have to play a part, which is why the Foreign Secretary’s conversations with his Iranian counterpart are so important, but we remain alive to the risks and will do everything we can to reduce them.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
The Prime Minister is right that to do nothing is not an option, but to do something there needs to be a strategy. If the attacks continue and there is continued disruption to maritime trade, does he have a plan B?
The Prime Minister
That is why we are working extensively with our allies, broadening the international coalition of support condemning the Houthis’ behaviour, and putting pressure on them in all different ways. It is important that military action is not seen in isolation: it sits alongside wider diplomatic and economic strategies. As I said, we will bring forward new sanctions measures, together with our allies, in the coming days.
Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
I express my full support for the action that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has approved. Will he extend his strategic objectives, because it seems that this threat will remain so long as the Houthis have a safe haven to operate from? It is a question of how we deal with that part of Yemen, which is effectively an ungoverned space.
The Prime Minister
It is clear that the Houthis’ behaviour is damaging the people of Yemen. We have talked previously about the importance of the supply of food into Yemen, but the destruction of oil infrastructure also deprives the Yemeni people of key revenue. These are all topics with which we are engaged with our Saudi partners. We very much support the negotiations. As my hon. Friend knows, a deal was announced in December. We would like to see a lasting peace and security for the Yemeni people for an inclusive political settlement, and I can assure him that, diplomatically, we are working very hard to achieve that aim.
Imran Hussain (Bradford East) (Lab)
The Prime Minister rightly states that the majority of this House supports a two-state solution to bring a lasting peace, but that is clearly not shared by the Israeli Prime Minister, Netanyahu, members of his far- right Cabinet, or the Israeli ambassador to the UK, who openly advocated genocide on the UK airwaves. They have all rejected an independent state of Palestine. Will the Prime Minister make it clear to the Israeli Prime Minister that he condemns his comments, which stand in the way of peace? Will he also condemn the vile comments of the Israeli ambassador, who labelled every building in Gaza as a legitimate target for the Israeli military?
The Prime Minister
The Foreign Secretary will be in the region this week and will reiterate what I have said publicly and from this Dispatch Box: we are absolutely committed to a two-state solution. We believe that is the right outcome for the people in the region. We want Palestinians and Israelis to be able to live side by side in peace, security and dignity, and we will redouble our efforts to bring about that outcome.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
Yemen is a complex, war-torn and troubled country that has never really settled since the north and south united in 1990. Today, the civil war means that two thirds of the population require humanitarian support. When I was Minister for the middle east, I spent a lot of time with the United Nations, the US and Gulf nations trying to build a suitable governance and security framework. Does the Prime Minster agree that, unless our attention on Yemen includes not only removing the immediate threat in the Red sea, but a fresh and more cognitive approach to resolving the longer-term governance issues in this troubled country, the threat will remain?
The Prime Minister
I thank my right hon. Friend for his previous efforts. As he knows, we are a penholder on Yemen in the UN, and we continue to use our diplomatic and political influence to support UN efforts to bring about that lasting peace to Yemen for an inclusive political settlement. The British people can be proud of what we are doing to support the Yemeni people from a humanitarian perspective. We have committed more than £1 billion in aid since the conflict began in 2014. I believe that this year we will be the fourth or fifth largest donor to the UN’s appeal.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
What assessment has the Prime Minister made of the risks if the Houthis move to a different part of Yemen, and how many civilian casualties have there been so far?
The Prime Minister
I am pleased to say that all our intelligence suggests that there were no civilian casualties from the strikes that we conducted last week, and that will of course have been our intention this time. We are very careful to take the time to pick the targets and minimise any civilian casualties and impacts. As I have said, we believe that there were none last time, and we have no evidence to suggest that there were any this time, but of course that is just an initial assessment.
Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Valley) (Con)
I thank the Prime Minister for the update and the continued humanitarian aid to Yemen. I totally agree with the action that he has taken to protect shipping. However, can he tell me what truth there is in the rumours that the Houthis may become a proscribed terrorist organisation, as that would have a major impact on any humanitarian aid sent to Houthi-controlled territories, which includes about 70% of the population?
The Prime Minister
As my hon. Friend will know, we do not comment on proscription processes or decisions on any group, so she will appreciate that there is not much that I can say on that. Just to clarify, it is worth pointing out that the United States has designated the Houthi group as “a specially designated terrorist group”, which is different from full proscription.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
At the moment, we see Houthi attacks continuing, the Popular Mobilisation Units attacking US bases in Syria, and Hezbollah in a low-level war with Israel in Lebanon. Yesterday in Gaza 24 members of the Israeli military were killed, and 24,000 Palestinians have died—[Interruption.] It is now 25,000, we are told. This morning we heard how a doctor is amputating children’s limbs in Gaza without anaesthetics. Does the Prime Minister not realise that, without an immediate ceasefire, any hope of a strategy succeeding will fail, and that the Netanyahu Cabinet has now become an obstacle to peace, rather than a partner in peace?
The Prime Minister
As I have said, no one wants to see the conflict in Gaza go on for a moment longer than is necessary. An immediate pause is now needed to get aid in and hostages out. The best outcome will be moving from that pause to a sustainable ceasefire, but that sustainable, permanent ceasefire does require a set of conditions for it to be truly sustainable and permanent, and that involves the release of all hostages and Hamas having no role in Gaza, particularly to fire rockets continually into Israel. That is the sustainable ceasefire that we are pushing for.
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
If the Houthis persist, have we the capability to remove the threat, and will we do it?
The Prime Minister
As my right hon. Friend can see, we will always back up our words with action. We have been clear that we will not tolerate risk to innocent lives and British interests in the region. We will take action where necessary in a limited and proportionate way, in compliance with international law and in self-defence. That is what we did last week and what we have done this week, and we will always reserve the right to do so in order to protect British lives and interests.
John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
It is clear that the “Partisans of God”—the Houthi militia—are fascist and racist. They are backed by fascists and racists in Tehran. Further to earlier questions—this has been asked time and again from both sides of the House—may I ask when we will get around to fully proscribing the IRGC?
The Prime Minister
As I have said previously, we do not routinely comment on groups that we may or may not be considering for proscription, but we have taken significant action against the IRGC, including sanctioning them in their entirety and passing new laws here at home to make sure that we can protect ourselves. Critically, we are working with our allies so that we can jointly determine what is the most effective way to combat the risk that Iran poses to us.
Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)
I congratulate the Prime Minister on a robust response—the right to navigate is indisputable—but the damage has already been done. Tankers are avoiding the Gulf of Aden, the Red sea and the Suez canal. Freight rates are now soaring and the impact of that on European refineries is likely to be significant. Can the Prime Minister say more about what will be done for armed convoys and how we will restore confidence that people and vessels will be able to navigate that stretch of water?
The Prime Minister
The Transport Secretary has been engaging extensively with the industry. My hon. Friend will have seen the statements from leading shipping companies after last week’s strike, saying that they welcomed action being taken to restore security. I also point him to Operation Prosperity Guardian, a coalition of more than 20 countries. More are now sending assets into the region to ensure the safety of all civilian and commercial shipping through the Red sea. It is a critical economic strait, but there is also a principle at stake, which we must defend.
Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)
The war in Gaza and the situation in the middle east are worsening every day. We know that more than 25,000 people have been killed, including 10,000 children, not to mention about 135,000 children suffering from severe malnutrition. We know that the only way to de-escalate the violence in Gaza and the crisis in the Red sea is by securing an immediate ceasefire—not a pause, but an immediate ceasefire. Why will the Prime Minister not commit to calling for this, so that we can see an end to this humanitarian catastrophe and the killing of innocent children?
The Prime Minister
I point the hon. Lady to my previous comments on that topic, but I will also just highlight that we have trebled our aid commitment for this financial year. We are working with partners in the region to increase the amount of aid going into the region. I discussed that with President Biden yesterday, because we recognise the humanitarian impact that the conflict is having. The UK is playing a leading role in getting more humanitarian aid into the region. As I have said, right now we will work with the Americans on opening up Ashdod so that we have a new maritime corridor to increase the flow.
Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Con)
I refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. I thank the Prime Minister for his resolute work, including the wider update on humanitarian aid and work to release hostages. Families of hostages and those hostages released will be suffering unconscionable long-term psychological trauma. Can we, in addition to physical aid, look at providing psychological support and expertise from the UK wherever it is needed for all those so gravely impacted?
The Prime Minister
I thank my hon. Friend for that excellent point. Like her, I have spent time with hostage families, including just yesterday, and she is right about the trauma that they are experiencing. Every family that we are in contact with will have dedicated support from the Foreign Office to provide them with what they need, and I will continue to ensure that the issue she raises gets the attention it deserves. She highlights the importance of pauses and ceasefires to ensuring the unconditional release of all the hostages. They and their families are undergoing something that no one would wish to have happen to them, and it is important that we prioritise them in all these conversations.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
I and many others will be disappointed at the Prime Minister’s failure to condemn the increasingly violent and extreme language by Netanyahu and his Ministers, and I invite him again to do so. The Prime Minister said 10 days ago that the airstrikes against Houthi targets would send a clear message. The Foreign Secretary said this morning that more strikes send the clearest message. Can the Prime Minister tell us where that will end, given that the only message actually being received in the region, whether he likes it or not, is about the UK’s failure to back an end to the suffering in Gaza?
The Prime Minister
Again, I urge the hon. Lady not to link and conflate these two things, because—
The Prime Minister
She is right: it is the Houthis who are doing that, and it is right that we call that out as being wrong, as the Government of Yemen themselves have done. It is absolutely right that we take necessary and proportionate action in self-defence against risk to British lives and interests. That is what we did last week and what we have done this week, and we will always reserve the right to do so. In parallel and separately, we are also doing everything we can to bring about more aid into Gaza and a sustainable ceasefire there that involves a release of hostages and the end of Hamas’s hostilities.
Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con)
I welcome the Prime Minister’s statement and actions of self-defence against the Houthis as the right thing to do. Over the past 24 hours, the BBC has carried reports that senior IRGC generals have made extremist speeches to United Kingdom students that are riddled with antisemitism and the promotion of violence. This radicalisation simply must stop. What steps is my right hon. Friend taking to end IRGC infiltration in the United Kingdom? While I fully acknowledge that he will not comment on proscription at the Dispatch Box, will he at least acknowledge the strength of feeling on both sides of the House and across the political divide for the proscription of the IRGC, which is behind so much of the violence in the region, including the barbaric attacks of 7 October and the continuing attacks in the Red sea?
The Prime Minister
I first stress that it is an absolute priority to protect the UK against foreign interference, and we will use all available levers to do that. On the particular matter my hon. Friend raises about those reports, I know the Charity Commission has opened an ongoing compliance case into trusts linked to the Kanoon Islamic centre, so it is right that that investigation happens properly. More broadly, universities have a duty to prevent people being drawn into terrorism, and where there is evidence that universities are failing in that duty, I am happy to reassure him that the Government will not hesitate to intervene to ensure that the right steps are taken.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
I, too, share concerns about what the strategy is, what the contagion to the rest of the middle east will be, and the possibility that might be bolstering the Houthis’ position in Yemen. Can I ask the Prime Minister about a constituent’s partner, who I mentioned to the Leader of the House last Thursday? He has been awaiting evacuation from south Gaza for a number of months. He has now suffered a broken leg and is receiving no healthcare. I urge the Prime Minister to liaise with the Israeli and Egyptian authorities for his immediate evacuation—it cannot carry on.
The Prime Minister
I am very happy to do that, and I will follow up with the Leader of the House on the hon. Lady’s case.
James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con)
The threat to maritime shipping in the Red sea is from not just Houthi missiles, but the threat of cyber-attacks often coming from Iranian proxies. Does the Prime Minister agree that there is an urgent need to strengthen the cyber-resilience of our maritime partners, to ensure that they are not susceptible to the threat of cyber-attack, which may disable them and cause multiple problems?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point, and that is why we previously created and funded the National Cyber Security Centre, on which our allies respect us for showing global leadership. His point is well made, and I will ensure that we are spreading our best practice to allies in the region.
Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (Alba)
The key to addressing violence is to address the root cause, not just its manifestations. The Red sea is inextricably linked to the events in Gaza. Rather than bombing the Houthis, who have been bombed for a decade by Saudi Arabia with the best military equipment that Britain and America could sell to it, is it not time that we supported South Africa and other countries at the International Court of Justice in addressing the root cause, which is the genocide unfolding in Palestine?
The Prime Minister
I disagree with the hon. Gentleman, and we disagree with what South Africa has brought to the ICJ and do not believe that it is helpful. I also disagree with him that those two things are linked. The Houthis have carried out attacks on multiple ships from different countries, many of which have nothing to do with the situation in Israel and Gaza. As the Government of Yemen themselves have pointed out, the attacks have nothing to do with that situation, which the Houthis are using as propaganda for their own selfish ends.
Sir Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
The Prime Minister has referred to the international support for the actions in the Red sea, but why have only US and UK forces actually taken part in them?
The Prime Minister
We also received support from Canada, Australia, the Netherlands and Bahrain in these strikes, as we did last time. I point the right hon. Gentleman to the statements that have been put out previously by over a dozen countries, including New Zealand, Korea, Singapore and others, and also to the UN Security Council resolution from 10 January, which was unequivocal in condemning the Houthi attacks and acknowledging the right of member states, in accordance with international law, to defend their vessels from attacks.
Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD)
We now have 25,000 dead. There are still 130 hostages. My extended family are still trapped. While we want to have hope, I dare say that it has now turned to complete despondency. The Prime Minister will have heard with dismay, I am sure, the words of Netanyahu when he said that he is categorically against two states. That echoes the equally awful words of Hamas, who say the same thing. Does the Prime Minister not agree that what we have here are the extremes of the debate? What words of hope does he have to offer those voices in Israel, Palestine and beyond who cling on desperately for the light in this darkness?
The Prime Minister
I thank the hon. Lady for her question and comments. I agree that we are committed to a two-state solution, because that is the only way we can bring about a future where Palestinians and Israelis can live side by side with the security they deserve, with dignity and with opportunity. The events of the last few months remind us that we must redouble our efforts to bring about that outcome. I remain confident, because of the engagement that we are having, that we can make progress on that aim.
Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op)
The Prime Minister said, “We urge the Houthis, and those who enable them, to stop these illegal and unacceptable attacks.” He then spoke only about Iran in terms of those who enable them. Who else is enabling the Houthis, and what action are the UK and its allies taking to stop them and their supply of weapons and other support to the Houthis?
The Prime Minister
I particularly mentioned Iran with good reason, because it is one of the primary suppliers of weapons to the Houthis. That is why in the past we have interdicted those shipments. Iran’s behaviour remains of primary concern to us. It is the significant destabilising actor in the region, and it will continue to be a focus of our diplomatic efforts. More broadly, we want to see peace and stability in the region across the board. Diplomatically and otherwise, we will work hard to bring that about.
Apsana Begum (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)
Further violence will not achieve peace. Aid agencies are warning that the UK and the US continuing to bomb Yemen is threatening civilian populations and inhibiting humanitarian assistance reaching millions who are already enduring starvation. Instead of escalating risks to civilian populations in the region, why can the Prime Minister not just support the growing and increasing calls internationally for an immediate ceasefire in Israel-Gaza, an end to the bloodshed in Gaza and an end to the attacks on Yemen, and call for peace, justice and human rights?
The Prime Minister
Again, I would not draw a link between the action in the Red sea and the situation in Gaza. They are two completely different things. The Houthis may seek to link them, but we should not pander to that narrative. We have been in touch with our non-governmental organisation partners, and they have confirmed no significant disruption to humanitarian efforts following our airstrikes. We help feed around 100,000 Yemenis every single month. Again, I would urge the hon. Lady to recognise that the Houthis’ activities actually damage the Yemeni people, who are entirely reliant on food coming in through those shipping lanes.
Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)
The Prime Minister sketched out some of the Government’s view on terms for a sustainable ceasefire in Gaza. What steps are the Government taking to discuss with other states—particularly with friendly states—a long-term peace plan for the region, including a two-state solution, to ensure that we make real progress towards that objective?
The Prime Minister
I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that we are having exactly that conversation with all our partners and allies in the region. I started that dialogue when I visited the region towards the end of last year, the Foreign Secretary will be in the region again this week, and it is something that President Biden and I have discussed. I believe that we are aligned on the future that we all want to see for the people of Israel and Gaza, and now we will work constructively with our allies to try to ensure that that can happen.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
May I press the Prime Minister a little more on Palestine? Although he was right to say in his statement that President Biden and he are united in support of a two-state solution, he will be acutely aware that the person who is likely to be President Biden’s main challenger in November’s election is almost certainly not in favour of a two-state solution, and neither is the Israeli Prime Minister. What are the Prime Minister and the British Government doing to use this narrow window of opportunity to push for that two-state solution?
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Gentleman to my previous answer. We are absolutely committed to a two-state solution and will work very hard with all our allies to make progress towards that aim.
Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)
Yemeni analyst Hisham Al-Omeisy is no friend of the Houthis—they took him hostage some time ago—but he has been raising concerns about the way in which these blunt military actions will play into the Houthi narrative against America and the UK. How does the Prime Minister intend to challenge that political narrative and ensure that the Yemeni people do not play into Houthi hands because of the action that he is taking?
The Prime Minister
As I say, we are in dialogue with the Yemeni Government, and they are doing their best to counter the narrative that the hon. Lady mentions. Also, I would not characterise these as “blunt” strikes; they are actually very deliberate and careful targeted strikes on military sites, minimising the impact on civilians. We will continue to ensure that that point is heard loud and clear.
Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)
The Houthis have already said that we should “expect a response” to the strikes. Benjamin Netanyahu’s words have further inflamed things, jeopardising opportunities for peace between Israel and Palestine. There have been attacks in Pakistan by Iran. Clearly, the situation is escalating. We need all partners to collaborate as best we can if we are to secure a ceasefire, end the attacks on shipping and get that two-state solution. The Prime Minister has talked about talking to our allies. Will he set out the conversations that he has had with colleagues in the European Union, which has its own peace initiative in the region, and where does he think that will get to?
The Prime Minister
I speak regularly to colleagues across Europe, including speaking to the Belgian Prime Minister just this morning. We will work with all our allies on these issues, as we have done in the past and will continue to do. I believe that we are all united on the outcome we want to see, which is a two-state solution in which Israelis and Palestinians can live side by side with peace, security and dignity.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I very much welcome the Prime Minister’s statement and his clear, firm stance—it is good to have that. What steps will he take to further secure safe passage for shipping companies, which have been forced to increase the price of shipping in order to enhance their protection? Even Church missions in my constituency sending humanitarian containers to Eswatini in southern Africa are paying increased prices for containers. What else can be done to alleviate not only this international affront but the direct impact on our constituents, who are already struggling with increased prices and stagnant wages?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman is right to point out the economic impact of attacks on shipping on everyone here at home and across the world. There is a meaningful economic cost to container ships rerouting around the Cape of Good Hope. That is an important reason why we must have freedom of navigation and it demonstrates why it is right that we take action. Prosperity Guardian is the operation providing more maritime security in the area.
Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab)
To follow up on the Prime Minister’s comments on Gaza, 25,000 people have now been killed there, so is it not time that our Government did more than express sympathies and instead used their diplomatic power to prevent more deaths there, starting with a UN Security Council motion calling for an immediate ceasefire and ending arms sales to Israel?
The Prime Minister
Our actions are clear: we have trebled our aid commitment this year, we are doing everything we can to open more crossings, and recently we worked to deliver a new humanitarian land corridor from Jordan into Gaza, with 750 tonnes of lifesaving food and aid arriving on its first delivery. We can be proud of the impact that we are having, but of course, there is more to do, and that is why we will continue to have those conversations to get more aid in.
Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
The Prime Minister says that he supports a two-state solution. That requires his Government to recognise the state of Palestine alongside the state of Israel. When will he do that?
The Prime Minister
The position of this Government is the same as that of previous Governments and is long-standing: we will recognise a Palestinian state at a time that best serves the peace process.
Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
There are 21 million people starving and in desperate need of food and aid in Yemen. How will the Prime Minister ensure that the military action taken by the British Government does not impede that desperately needed humanitarian support?
The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Lady to my previous answer. In fact, the Houthis’ disruption of Red sea shipping is harming the Yemeni people, who are relying on those corridors to bring aid in. As I said, we are the fourth or fifth largest donor to the UN appeal this year, we have contributed £1 billion since the conflict began in 2014, and we are currently helping to feed 100,000 people in Yemen every month.
Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
It will surely be of great concern that the Royal Navy is now almost too small to carry out its many responsibilities, including those that the Prime Minister has told us about today. Can he assure the House that that important issue will be placed at the top of the agenda at the next defence review?
The Prime Minister
I am pleased to tell the hon. Gentleman that the MOD is receiving significant extra funds—£24 billion at the last spending review, and billions of pounds since—to rebuild stockpiles and ensure the sustainability of our defence nuclear enterprise. In particular, the Royal Navy has a very ambitious capital programme. As he can see, it has successfully carried out the operations that we need it to carry out, and it deserves our thanks and praise for its work.
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
The Prime Minister spoke about maritime security in the region, particularly in relation to stemming illegal arms getting into Yemen. How will the UK’s ability to contribute to wider maritime security be affected by considerations of decommissioning HMS Westminster and HMS Argyll after multimillion-pound refits, and when will we make a final decision on whether to mothball HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark?
The Prime Minister
As the hon. Gentleman can see, we absolutely have the capabilities and personnel we need to contribute to allied operations such as Prosperity Guardian, and to take action in self-defence, as we have done. We will always ensure that our armed forces have the investment that they need, and under this and previous Governments they have continued to receive very significant investment, which is set to rise in the years ahead.
Tributes to Sir Tony Lloyd
(10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Speaker
Before we proceed with the business, I would like to take the opportunity to remember our late colleague Sir Tony.
I first met Tony almost 30 years ago when I was standing as a candidate in Chorley in the 1997 election. Tony was shadow Foreign Affairs Minister. He came along to Chorley and to Adlington—the village I live in—where, on Sutton Lane, he knocked on doors. I have to say that it was his charm, passion and good humour that helped convince those wavering voters to vote for me, so I am forever in his debt.
Of course, Tony had been in the Commons for quite some time before me. In total, he served the people of Greater Manchester for 45 years. He was first elected as a member of Trafford Council in 1979, and, in 1983, he was elected to this House as the Member for his home town of Stretford. In 1997, he was returned for Manchester Central. By that time, he had been part of the Labour Front-Bench team for over a decade, and Tony Blair appointed him Minister of State in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, serving under Robin Cook. He remained active in international affairs after leaving the FCO as leader of the UK delegations to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, the Western European Union and the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe. He was chair of the parliamentary Labour party from 2006 to 2012, the longest-serving holder of that role during that last Labour Government.
He stood down as a Member of Parliament to become the first elected police and crime commissioner for Greater Manchester, but in 2017, he returned to the House as the Member of Parliament for Rochdale. Tony remained an active Member of the House until very recently. In one of his final speeches in this House, just last month, he concluded by saying:
“I think the message that has come across today is that we must fight for the change that we want to see take place.”—[Official Report, 7 December 2023; Vol. 742, c. 184WH.]
That is a fair summary of Tony’s attitude to public service: he was truly a great Member of Parliament. However, although he took politics seriously, Tony did not take himself seriously. He had a very dry—even mischievous—sense of humour, but overwhelmingly, he left an impression of kindness and decency on those who dealt with him.
Tony was an impressive Member of Parliament—he was an impressive person—but his politics were shaped by his mother. His father died young; his mother introduced him into the Labour movement, and it was the Labour movement that shaped the person we are talking about today. I will always be in awe of his kindness, his generosity, and the support that he always gave me. Even on that day as he came out of hospital, Tony was thinking of others. I was pleased to have had the chance to have a chat with him, to share a few jokes and reminisce a bit, but one of the most difficult things you have to do is phone somebody whose life is coming to an end, and I wondered how I could make that phone call. Typical of Tony, he made it so easy for me. He was that kind of person: he put me at ease when it was meant to be the other way around. That is the person we are talking about. He made sure that it was not a difficult conversation. I did not know that that would be the last time we would ever speak, but I am so glad that we did.
We have not only lost a great colleague and friend; the country has lost one of its nicest and most effective MPs. However, while we in this House and those who worked for him mourn his loss, our thoughts are with his family, who are watching today’s tributes from the Gallery: his wife Judith, his children and his granddaughters. I hope the tributes will give them some comfort in the knowledge that Tony was much loved by all sides of the House. May you rest in peace, dear Tony.
I now call the Leader of the Opposition.
Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)
The death of Sir Tony Lloyd last week was a great loss to so many people on the Labour Benches and beyond, but the sadness we feel pales in comparison with the grief that Tony’s family are going through. Our hearts are with them, and I am pleased that some of Tony’s family are in the Gallery today: his wife Judith, his children Angharad, Siobhan, Kieron and Alexandria, his son-in-law Paul, his nephew Sean—who I know was like a son to him—and of course his sister Vivian. Like you, Mr Speaker, I hope they can take some comfort in the memories and tributes of colleagues today, and I hope they see just how much Tony was loved and respected here in this House and how much he managed to achieve in his decades of public service.
I first met Tony when I was Director of Public Prosecutions and he was the police and crime commissioner in Greater Manchester. We were at a sexual assault referral clinic in Greater Manchester, St Mary’s, which works with organisations and individuals committed to combating violence against women and girls, providing safe places for women and girls to report what has happened to them. It is an incredible model, and I saw at first hand Tony’s commitment to tackling violence against women and girls. What really struck me when I met him for that first time was that he had the heart of a true public servant: not grandstanding, not pretending that he had all the answers, but quietly and respectfully working with others to deliver.
Like others, I have been deeply moved to read and hear the many tributes to Tony, not just from Labour Members but from Members across the House. I thank Members across the House for the comfort that the tributes they have paid will have given Tony’s family. Tributes have also been paid by those from the trade union movement, because Tony was a committed trade unionist, and by people who met Tony in his decades of public service. Like you, Mr Speaker, it meant a great deal to me personally to have had the opportunity to speak directly to Tony when he left hospital for the last time, the Thursday before he died, Thursday week ago. I was able to convey to him at first hand the high esteem in which he was held by everyone, which I hope gave him some comfort and support in those final days.
Tony was held in special high esteem by his staff: Jacob, Iftikhar, Beverley, Arjeera, Megan and Chris, and of course Tricia, his close friend and political confidante in Rochdale. Indeed, many of those in Tony’s tight-knit group of friends used to work for him, and I know that they were by his side in his final days. That is a true tribute to Tony: he treated people as kindly and warmly behind closed doors as he did publicly, and he treated those who worked for him with the respect and dignity he expected everybody to be treated with.
Some Members of the House know that Tony followed the reds on two fronts: he was committed to the Labour party, but he was also a passionate supporter of Manchester United. Tony and I agreed on a lot of things, but not on that. As we all know, though, his love for Manchester went beyond football. A former Irish ambassador who I have got to know well, and who worked closely with Tony when he was the shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, remembered receiving from Tony what he described as a
“whimsical Mancunian take on Irish history”,
showing not just Tony’s typical knowledge of his subject but the great sense of humour and poignancy that he was known for.
Across the country, Tony had a huge impact as the MP for Rochdale; across the United Kingdom, he championed co-operation, collaboration and communities; and across the world, he promoted peace, chairing Labour Friends of Ukraine and supporting human rights and democracy in Belarus. However, he still always had the time for the little things that matter so much to Members of this House—a friendly word and some encouragement, with that twinkle in his eye that everybody who has ever met him knows and will remember.
Just a few days before he died, Tony published what would turn out to be his final article in his local paper. He wrote about his hopes for 2024—for peace in the middle east and across the world. He wrote of the need to help the NHS off its knees, particularly having just experienced its care first hand. He wrote of the importance of action on climate change to make sure that we can pass our planet on to our children, and he wrote about education and the need to invest in young people. Tony might not be able to lead the fight for that better world he hoped for, but those of us he leaves behind will, and we will have him in mind as we continue to fight for the causes he was passionate about, the values he lived, and the people he served throughout his entire life. May he rest in peace. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”]
The Prime Minister (Rishi Sunak)
Last week, the whole House was deeply saddened by the loss of one of our longest-serving and most respected Members, Sir Tony Lloyd. I offer my sincere condolences and those of the whole Government to his wife, Judith, their children and grandchildren, and all of his friends and family.
Tony and I of course came from different political traditions, but I deeply respected him as a man of great integrity, compassion and humour, a gentle, but fierce advocate for his constituents and his values, and a dedicated parliamentarian. He loved this House, he said, for the “shenanigans of the place”, and it has said everything about his pragmatic and warm approach to politics that we have heard and will hear so many heartfelt tributes to him from all sides of this House.
For Tony, politics was always about people. That began, of course, with his constituents in Rochdale and his home city of Manchester. Born in Stretford, within cheering distance of his beloved Old Trafford, he spent 36 years as a Member of Parliament and served as a police and crime commissioner, truly living up to his nickname, Mr Manchester.
Tony gave an interview while recovering from covid that gives us the full measure of the man. All of Tony’s humanity is there—his empathy, his values. He talked of watching a young nurse gently feeding an old man opposite, reflecting, in his words,
“that there is more to life than the next parcel from Amazon. It’s what binds us as a human family really. That enormous decency.”
Tony was an enormously decent man, who gave his life to public service. From local government to crime, Northern Ireland and, perhaps most enduringly, foreign affairs, he was a principled and tireless public servant who made a real difference to the lives of people here and around the world.
Mr Speaker, as you said, in his penultimate contribution in this House, Tony said that
“change can happen, and…we must fight for the change that we want to see”.—[Official Report, 7 December 2023; Vol. 742, c. 184WH.]
From the beginning of his career right to the end, Tony Lloyd lived those words. He was a great family man, a great man of Manchester and a great man of the House of Commons. He will be missed, but he and the change he fought for and achieved will never be forgotten. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”]
Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
I want to send our sincere condolences to Tony’s family from the SNP Benches.
I also want to say a few words personally about Tony. I did not know him very well, but I have one very vivid recollection. One evening, in the covid tent that was set up on the terrace, I went to meet an SNP colleague for a little light refreshment, and at the table with her were Tony Lloyd and Stephen Pound. Mr Speaker, we almost got thrown out of that covid tent—not because we were drinking so much, but because we were laughing so much. I think every time someone said something, either Stephen or Tony, maybe a wee bit myself and my colleague, just capped each other, and those who were in that tent probably remember the racket. Everyone—everyone—was looking at us and wondering what it was we found so funny. I cannot remember what it was we found so funny, but it was just one of those evenings where you go away feeling better. Thereafter, every time I met Tony, he spoke to me.
I probably fully understand what Tony’s family are going through, having been widowed myself. My late husband used to say, “Marion, hen, most people get into politics to help other people”. I think that was Tony, and I am so glad I met him. I spoke to him very recently in the Chamber, and he gave me his lovely smile, nodded and asked me how I was—and the day felt better. It is a bit presumptuous of me to say that things get better, but I know they do. I also know that it is always best to look back and remember those we love who are gone with a smile, and I am sure that will be easy in time for Tony’s family.
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)
One of the interesting quotations in Wikipedia has Tony Lloyd’s words:
“the basic morality of politics was instilled in me. I have always thought if not fighting for what’s right and just, then what is politics for?”
My recommendation to anybody coming into this place, and one I try to take myself, is to try to earn the tributes that Tony Lloyd has earned.
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
When we have the sad duty to pay tribute to hon. or right hon. Members, it is often the case that the facts get gilded, in a sense, to help the family. There is absolutely no need to embellish the facts when it comes to Tony. Quite simply, Tony was a decent man, who dedicated his life to public service.
Tony was first elected to Trafford Council on the same day that Margaret Thatcher became Prime Minister, which meant that his first 18 years as an elected representative were probably more difficult than most people’s first 18 years. He very soon, four years after he had been elected as a councillor, became the Member of Parliament for Stretford, and I want to mention two things about that. It meant that he represented Manchester United and Manchester City—both grounds were in that constituency—and Tony, who was fair with all his constituents all his life, was I suspect not completely even-handed between the Reds and the Blues at Manchester. He was delighted to go into the directors’ box at Old Trafford, and I think the last early-day motion he put down was a very good tribute to Bobby Charlton when he passed away recently. One of the sadnesses of Tony passing is that he campaigned against, and led a debate in Westminster Hall on, the Glazers’ parasitic ownership of Manchester United, and as the Glazers are on the way out, I think Tony would have been delighted to see their demise.
When Tony became the MP for Stretford, which included Moss Side, I became leader of the council shortly afterwards, and we both had to deal with many of the problems that there were in Moss Side at that time. I think it would be fair to say that Tony worked tirelessly to improve the relationships between the different communities and the public services in Moss Side, because we were still in the aftermath of the 1981 riots in Moss Side. I think it is also fair to say—he took this into his job later as police and crime commissioner—that he was not a supporter of James Anderton’s rather brutal tactics in Moss Side, and he saw it as part of his job to improve relations between the communities, not to make them worse.
Tony took a similar attitude when he moved to Manchester Central. Although he loved representing Manchester United, he was always the political realist, and he could see that there was likely to be a much larger majority in Manchester Central than there was in Stretford, so he moved to Manchester Central. Again, he had a difficult ward in Cheetham, and he dedicated his time to improving relations in that ward. He never said this to me directly, but I think it was his experience of seeing the damage that poor policing could do that motivated him to become the police and crime commissioner for Greater Manchester.
In some ways more importantly, Tony was the first non-elected mayor for Greater Manchester to use those skills of bringing communities together in bringing the 10 local authorities of Greater Manchester together. Greater Manchester has a reputation for the authorities working together, but that does not just happen on its own. Authorities are often jealous of each other, leaders of councils are jealous of Members of Parliament and they are certainly jealous of mayors, elected or not, and Tony used his skills to bring people together.
Tony was calm, which does not mean he always toed the party line: on Iraq and Trident, for instance, I was pleased to walk through the Lobby with him. He did not agree with the current Labour party policy on the middle east, but again it was done in a calm and thoughtful way. And when the war memorial in Rochdale was desecrated with pro-Palestinian, anti-British Government writing and by people chanting racist, antisemitic slogans, Tony was the first person to call it out.
This House, the people of Rochdale and the people of Greater Manchester will greatly miss Tony’s contribution to our political life.
Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)
It is with great sadness that I rise and say goodbye to Tony Lloyd. He was a man of great courtesy, he was a great parliamentarian, and I am so glad that both the Leader of the Opposition and the Prime Minister have paid such fulsome tributes to him.
I much enjoyed his company when I had the opportunity to speak to him, and I also want to recognise his independence of mind, as the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) just said, regarding the question of Iraq, which was a huge issue for those on the Labour side. He spoke for the Labour party with an independence of mind and an authority that certainly attracted me to listen to what he had to say when he spoke.
I would also like to pay tribute to him not only as the Mayor of Greater Manchester but as the Member for Rochdale and, by way of a personal anecdote, I would like to put on record my thanks. In 2017 he helped to organise and spoke at the commemoration of John Bright in Rochdale Quaker cemetery; he played a very important part not only in putting the event together but in the celebration and commemoration that took place afterwards. He recognised the greatness of other people’s contributions to the history of Rochdale, such as that of John Bright, and Bright’s commitment to democracy. I can only say that as the Member for Rochdale, although sadly no longer, he represented the very best of what John Bright represented when he himself was a Member of Parliament in this country for so long. So I just want to pay tribute to his family—to offer my condolences to Judith and the family—and to say thank you, Tony, for all you did.
Ed Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD)
I hope these heartfelt tributes to Sir Tony Lloyd are a source of comfort to his family. I say to them that those of us who were lucky enough to know him for a little while knew him to be an absolutely lovely man: kind, and respected in all parts of the House. You should be really proud of him.
I say to the Labour family that I know he was an integral part of the Labour party for so many years and I know you are proud of him, and justifiably so. He stood up for Labour party principles and his own principles as an individual MP representing his constituency.
I have spoken to Liberal Democrat colleagues in Manchester who remember Tony as the sort of person who would reach out to other parties to make sure that the people of Manchester were the prime objective in the work that politicians of all parties were trying to do. It was no surprise that he decided to leave this House to go and be the police and crime commissioner, where he served with real distinction to try to make the lives of everyone in Manchester better. He was a Mancunian at his heart, as we heard from the former leader of the council, the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer).
I also remember Tony as a strong internationalist; that was a real theme in the work that he did. In his last speech in this House, he was supporting and standing up for the universal declaration of human rights. He voted against the Iraq war. He was an internationalist and put his beliefs into what he did.
My personal experience of Sir Tony from listening to him in this House was that his calm, thoughtful and respectful interventions were often heard in silence because people wanted to hear what he had to say. My particular remembrance is from a cross-party visit to Israel and Palestine in 2009. We went to towns in southern Israel such as Ashkelon, and we went to the west bank and Gaza. We were at the border crossing in Gaza and were not being let in; it was a prearranged trip, but we were not being allowed in and we were there for several hours. We rang the British ambassador; that did not work. But Tony had the idea of ringing the BBC, and within an hour the BBC was reporting that a cross-party group of British MPs was not being allowed into Gaza, and it was amazing how quickly we were allowed in. That showed the measure of Tony: a principled pragmatist, getting through issues, understanding how things worked. My advice to colleagues is when going on foreign trips, always take a former Foreign Office Minister with you, because that comes in quite handy.
We will not forget him; no one who met him—whether constituents, Members of this House or, frankly, anyone around the world who met him—will ever forget Tony. He will live in our hearts and memories.
Dame Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con)
I feel humbled to be able to speak about Tony. He shadowed me when I was Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and it was always a pleasure and an honour to be able to have a private conversation with him. Yes, across the Dispatch Box we might have our disagreements, but behind the scenes I knew that we could have a proper, open, frank conversation. And I will say this about conversations with Tony: I learned something from every one of them. Every single time we spoke there was something new—there was a different perspective that Tony gave me, a different way of thinking about things, and he helped me enormously in the task we both had to try to restore devolved government to Northern Ireland when I was Secretary of State and he shadowed me.
After that time we remained close and would regularly chat about Northern Ireland and what was going on. We often talked about football as well, despite supporting teams from different sides of Manchester. We always had a great conversation and he was always generous and warm and witty.
I was very honoured that last month he was able to co-host with me an event that the British Group Inter-Parliamentary Union held to mark the 75th anniversary of the universal declaration of human rights. Tony being Tony, he went around every stall; every possible person met Tony, and he was warm, he was kind, he was generous, and they knew that he was engaged and listening to them, which is a rare quality in the people we come across.
Last week the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) and I were both at a BGIPU conference and our admin official was Joe Perry, who is the newest BGIPU recruit. Joe worked in Tony’s office for many years and we could see just how much he was affected by the loss of Tony—the shock of it, but also the sense of loss of somebody so special to him, somebody who had given him so much. I am very pleased that the three of us were able to spend a little bit of time to toast Tony; we found somewhere he would have liked and it was nice to be able to raise a glass to a good friend and somebody we will all miss desperately.
Several hon. Members rose—
John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
Like you, Mr Speaker, I met Tony about 30 years ago in the run-up to the 1997 general election. I thought then, and have continued to think ever since, what a tolerant and restrained man he was, even when he felt strongly. I have to say I was not particularly tolerant or restrained in those days; I would like to think I learned something from Tony—I think I did over the years.
Those qualities stood him in great stead when he became chair of the parliamentary Labour party. He took over at a time when the tensions—I am being slightly euphemistic—between Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were at their sharpest. He was able to guide the PLP through that period.
It is extraordinary to think that when Tony came into this place, Michael Foot was leader of the Labour party. I think I am right that he served under nine Labour leaders. On longevity, I remember Tony telling me many years ago that as a young boy, he saw the Busby babes play, with the great Duncan Edwards. He must have been one of the last people still alive who could say that they saw Manchester United before the Munich crash.
In conclusion, Tony’s tolerance and restraint were an exemplar. There are an awful lot of people—not just in here, but outside as well—who could usefully learn a few lessons from Tony.
Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con)
I add my condolences to those of colleagues; Tony was a man who commanded universal respect across the House and beyond.
Although for most of my time as a Member of Parliament, Tony was a fellow MP, I got to know him best when he was out of the House of Commons as the first Mayor of Greater Manchester, following on from being the police and crime commissioner—indeed, he combined the two. He was appointed on 29 May 2015, two weeks after I had been appointed Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. It was an absolute pleasure to work closely with Tony during those two years. Creating the first big city Mayor outside Greater London was a big deal. It had not been done for many decades, so it was important that it should be a success not only for Greater Manchester, which was going to elect its Mayor, but for the whole country, because we wanted to encourage other great cities across the UK to follow that route.
The first Mayor was crucial. Tony was selected by borough leaders across Greater Manchester, and he proved to be the perfect inaugural Mayor with his easy-going charm and ability to work well not only with the three parties who were leading the boroughs of Greater Manchester, but with a Conservative Government. The experience he had of this place and of ministerial office built the confidence in the role of Mayor of Greater Manchester—the confidence that it could be entrusted with powers and responsibilities devolved from this place. That proved to be a template not just for further devolution to Greater Manchester, but for the whole country.
I enjoyed working with Tony during that time not only because of his courteousness and effectiveness, but due to his tenacity, which colleagues across the House will remember. Without his sure-footed leadership, not only the mayoralty of Greater Manchester but those of other city regions might not have taken root in the way that they have. Tony was not one to trumpet his own attributes and achievements, as has been said, but in those two short years as Mayor of Greater Manchester he created a great legacy, not just for the city of which he was so proud, but for the country as a whole. We send his family our sincere condolences.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
I first met Tony Lloyd in 1988. My husband Colin and I were looking for help putting on an Amnesty International showing of artwork to celebrate the 40th anniversary of the UN declaration of human rights. I contacted Tony, whom I had not met previously, and he helped us to arrange the showing of those artworks at Manchester central library. We also managed to have a fantastic launch event at the library, featuring Tony and some actors from “Coronation Street”. The wholeheartedness with which he supported what we wanted to do with that event on human rights was typical of Tony.
Tony was the MP for Stretford at the time I became a councillor on Trafford Council. Having been a Trafford councillor himself, as we have heard, Tony was a great mentor for all of us new councillors who were elected when we won Trafford Council in 1995. I can remember Tony and Judith at our Trafford Labour social events, and in particular his very good salsa dancing.
Tony has a remarkable record of service as an MP in Trafford and Manchester, our police and crime commissioner, the interim Mayor and, most recently, the MP for Rochdale. He was also the long-serving chair of the parliamentary Labour party. In all those roles, Tony had a substantial influence on our political life, particularly in Greater Manchester and the north-west, but more widely in his role as a committed internationalist.
The final thing I want to pay tribute to is Tony Lloyd’s sheer decency and humanity. I thank him for his friendship and support across the years, and I want to send love to Judith, his children—Siobhan, Angharad, Kieron and Alexandria—all the family and Tony’s staff. We will miss him terribly.
Chris Clarkson (Heywood and Middleton) (Con)
I am not going to talk for long, because a lot of people knew Tony better than I did, but for the past four years I had the privilege of sharing a borough with him. I was his constituency neighbour, and a better friend and neighbour you could not ask for.
I was trying to think of anecdotes I could use to sum up how good a friend he was to me, but as has been alluded to, Tony’s sense of humour was very dry, which means I cannot repeat quite a few of those anecdotes in the Chamber. I will touch on a couple of incidents. The first was on 13 December, when a bleary-eyed, newly-elected MP for Heywood and Middleton reached out of the bed to grab their phone, which was ringing. It was Tony on the other end, who was clearly in a lot better condition than me. He said, “I think we should probably get together so I can get you up to speed.” This was a man who had just been through a tough election, and his first thought was getting his constituents’ needs dealt with, because there had been a transition on the other side of the borough. There is a lovely story that comes off the back of that, but it is not repeatable, so Members should find me in Strangers later. It was the mark of the man. If we are talking about the spirit of co-operativism that is Rochdale, Tony embodied that. That service never waned, even when his health did.
Most recently, I spoke with Tony one-on-one at the Holodomor commemorations. Tony did fantastic work with the Ukrainian community, especially in our borough. We were stood there in the freezing cold, and I was close enough to him at that point to ask how his treatment was going, and he started asking questions about how I was doing personally. He was so sanguine about it, and he just kept going. We were exchanging casework pretty much up to the last. This was a man who gave his all for something he really cared about. He was a parliamentarian’s parliamentarian, but he was also a fantastic local community representative.
We use a lot of superlatives in this job—we talk about things being awesome, big and grand—but a word that carries a lot more weight for me is “good”. Tony did not just do good; he was good.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
A lot has been said about our friend Tony Lloyd, such as the service he gave to the people of Greater Manchester over his long and distinguished career as Trafford councillor, MP for Stretford, MP for Manchester Central, police and crime commissioner for Greater Manchester, interim Mayor of Greater Manchester, MP for Rochdale, Minister, shadow Minister—we can rattle them all off.
Tony was a friend, and somebody who I will miss greatly. I first got to know Tony at the 1992 summer Young Labour residential—I was young once. I am billing it as a residential, but it was actually in Manchester. It was at the GMB National College in Whalley Range. It is now the British Muslim Heritage Centre and the site of the constituency office of my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Afzal Khan), but back then it was the GMB National College. A number of MPs from across the north-west region and beyond came to talk to all these eager young Labour activists. We were a little dejected, because we had been through a general election that we should have won, but we did not, and the rest is history.
Tony did not just come to the college and chat to us youngsters, but he stayed with us afterwards. Everybody else disappeared—they had more important things to do—but Tony stayed with us, to encourage us to keep up the fight and to stand for what we believe in. He did like a beer, and he even did the karaoke afterwards, but he was all about supporting young people and encouraging them into politics and to chase and follow their dreams. I did not think he would remember, but when I was elected in 2005 as the MP for Denton and Reddish, he came over to me in the Members’ Tea Room and said, “I remember you doing karaoke, Andrew.” I said, “Well, Tony, I remember you doing karaoke, and it wasn’t that great.”
Over the last 19 years, we served together in this place. We sat in the shadow Cabinet together. He was a great shadow Northern Ireland Secretary who really believed in reaching out across the communities and bringing people together. He fought for internationalism, whether it was for the people of Colombia, the people of Palestine or the Kashmiri people with whom I did a lot of work with Tony when he was MP for Rochdale. He was a socialist and an internationalist. He believed in social justice. He was an exceptional public servant. He was both a gentle man and a gentleman. God bless you, Tony, and thank you to Judith, the family and the staff for sharing such a lovely man with the Labour party.
Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)
I am deeply honoured to speak, as I served with Tony on the International Trade Committee for three years. He was always there to give this young upstart some good, impartial advice. He was kind and generous, and always had a balanced view about what should and should not be done. He had the best interests of Parliament at heart. His was an extraordinary service to Parliament and an extraordinary example to any young Member entering this place.
I wrote to him last year when he fell ill. In the midst of his treatment, he sent back a letter not complaining or uttering anything about his personal circumstances but saying how much he missed being in this place and how much he was looking forward to getting back here. When I saw him a month ago, I was so pleased to be able to have a last word with him and say what an extraordinary example he was to so many.
I thought about what would be an acceptable anecdote to tell. At one point, I said to him, “I’m a bit stuck, Tony. I’ve got a constituency engagement coming up and I’m not entirely sure what the funny story is that I will be able to tell.” I do not know whether this happened to him or was one of those apocryphal stories, but he looked at me and said, “How about this one? I had some constituents come to see me: a mother, a father and a son. They were standing in Central Lobby as the Division bell went, and the Doorkeepers and the police were all shuffling about. The father said to the mother, ‘What’s that? What does that mean?’ Out of nowhere, the boy said, ‘It means one of them has escaped.’” [Laughter.] That was his gift to me—a good sense of humour—and now it is passed on to all hon. Members to use at association events.
Tony was an extraordinary man. I am so pleased and fortunate to have ever been able to meet him. I send my very best to his family.
Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
My thoughts are with Tony’s family in the Gallery, and also his staff, past and present. Many of them will be mourning a man who made a great impact in their lives. I knew Tony for well over 25 years as a colleague and a friend. Of course, we shared the two reds idea. I have to say that one of the reds is clearly coming up nicely—and I hope the football team also gets better. [Laughter.]
The other thing that I shared with Tony was our community relations work in Greater Manchester, where I found him incredible. As a colleague and mentor to me when I joined the Labour party, he helped me with many great political challenges and fights, including winning my Cheetham Hill seat from the Lib Dems and the late Qasim Afzal. When I became a Member of the European Parliament, the fight was with Nick Griffin, who represented the north-west. Again, Tony was a star—he knew exactly what needed to be done at the right time and what needed to be said. It was the same when it came to George Galloway—I have had my share from both the left and the right.
I always found Tony to be an absolute gem. With his experience, his balanced ideas and his clarity of thought, I always found myself in a good place. He was an unfailingly warm, friendly and kind individual. He could always be relied on for support, whatever campaign or issue we were working on, and he was always available to intervene in obscure Westminster Hall or Adjournment debates. Despite being gentle and modest, he was a sharp politician who knew exactly how this place worked and how he could use it to get the best for his constituents. I know that because Tony represented Whalley Range—an area in my constituency—and even now, long-term residents still remember him and talk fondly about how he sorted out their housing, their immigration or whatever issues they had some 30 years ago.
As a councillor, a Member of Parliament, a police and crime commissioner and interim Mayor, Tony touched the lives of everyone in Greater Manchester. He will be missed here in Parliament and, most importantly, by people back home in Manchester and Rochdale, whom he never missed an opportunity to champion. May he rest in peace.
Sir Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con)
I am grateful for the chance to participate. Tony was a calm and decent man and a gentleman. When I was elected in 1997, I was one of two Conservative MPs in Greater Manchester—and in 2001 I was one of one—but, right from the start, Tony was one of those who helped to set the tone for the way in which, regardless of party, we all worked together in the interests of the city and the region. I always valued that enormously. That is an example to all Members of how we serve the wider public and not just our parties or our own interests.
Oddly, then, the other thing I will say in giving my condolences to the family and paying tribute to Tony is that I came across him again in particular in 2010, when I was elected chairman of the 1922 committee and he was the chairman of the parliamentary Labour party. There we both were in our respective party roles, but also finding ourselves working together, perhaps more often than I had ever expected, and I have found that since, with his two successors in my time as chairman of the ’22. I always valued his advice. It was remarkable how often he was able to give me, as the new boy looking after the 1922 committee, advice and guidance from his experience of dealing with the PLP. He will be missed and he sets an example for us all that I hope will be followed.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
I wish to pass on my sincere condolences and sympathies to the family of Tony on his passing.
I got to know Tony Lloyd just after his return to the House in 2017, and then when he was appointed as the Labour party’s Northern Ireland spokesperson. A very senior member of the Labour party had the ultimate responsibility when coming to Northern Ireland to meet with the innocent victims of terrorism. Despite my best efforts to get that person to meet them, Tony came to me and said, “I will meet them, Gregory.” I said, “Thank you very much, Tony.”
I arranged a meeting, which was the first time I had been in close proximity to Tony in a meeting with a small group of people, as opposed to in the Chamber. Initially, I felt deeply touched by his empathy, how he listened to the trauma of many people who had suffered at the hands of terror, and how he very calmly and patiently responded to each and every person. I deeply appreciated that, but what struck me even more was that after he finished his term as Labour Front-Bench spokesperson for Northern Ireland and he no longer had that responsibility, one day he sat behind me in the Chamber, tapped me on the shoulder and said, “Gregory, I would like to meet those people again.” He did not have to, he did not need to, but he did. Again, he showed and demonstrated his empathy.
In preparation for these few words, this morning I was reminded of how we should be reminded of all our mortality at this occasion. As the old book says:
“What does God require of us? To act justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly with our God.”
Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
Tony was one of the best of us: a decent, kind man dedicated to helping people. As we have heard today, often he was unassuming and he never showboated the brilliant work he did. Such was his commitment to public service, he rarely felt comfortable taking personal credit for the great work he did, preferring to quietly and furiously work in the background to get done what needed to be done. His career was never about him but about the people he was trying to lift up. Because of that, Tony was loved.
There are so many stories and messages of warmth from his friends and colleagues, and I have just a few that I want to share. Ian Stewart, a close friend who was formerly the MP for Eccles and then Mayor of Salford, said:
“Tony phoned me before Christmas (he must have been in hospital when he phoned, although he didn’t mention that). He said he wanted arrange a meal and a drink with me. I explained that Mez was ill and we thought she might have Covid. I suggested that he and I should get together as we regularly did either between Christmas and New Year or early January. He agreed but then calmly said he loved me and Mez and that I should let her know that.
First and foremost Tony was a true and close friend of 50 years. He was a real trade union socialist, with a good heart and a strong desire to help those in need.
He was a Statistician by trade lecturing at the University of Salford when we first met. People were always bemused when they found out he was good at maths. Tony was a product of the post war Labour Government’s Welfare State and Education System. Which he never forgot.
I ran his campaign to become the Chair of the parliamentary trade union group.
I ran his campaign to become the Chair of the parliamentary Labour Party.
I had great respect for him as a politician and dear friend.
In 1988, Tony was the first Politician to be interested in and support the creation of the synergistic social partnership model for good governance and socially just resolution of complex problems.
Tony and I were invited to attend our friend Chan Singhs inauguration as the Temple President of a Manchester Sikh Temple and we wore Turbans together. We looked the part.
He was part of that small group of politicians who were underestimated; underrated; and underused in Parliament. His quiet, calm manner belied the gut instinct and passionate reaction to inequality and lack of social justice experienced by oppressed communities, whether at work, in the community, in the UK or Sub Saharan Africa. He had been the Minister for Sub Saharan Africa in the Blair Government. He was a genuine internationalist, and understood the real global implications and need to battle against neoliberalism at home and abroad.
A genuine man of the people. And one of the few politicians I will miss sharing a meal and a drink with.”
The hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald), who cannot be here today as he is recovering from an operation, asked me to share this funny story:
“He was so special and a warm character but there was also a very naughty side to him and I’d like to share this story about him.
I’d missed breakfast and I was really quite hungry and was hoping the delicious jerk chicken would be on offer and headed off to “The Debate”, the cafeteria in Portcullis House in eager anticipation.
But imagine my disappointment when walking up to the entrance to cafeteria and looking up at menu board to see the row of usually packed canteen serving stations totally empty, no staff and no customers. There’d been some sort of problem and services were disrupted and there’d be no lunch in the Debate today.
I tried to take in the full extent of this lunchtime disaster.
I was standing there, open mouthed in disbelief, with my hand still outstretched in automatic pilot poised to pick up a tray from the pile to put my non existent food on, as if in total denial and unable to compute, whilst simultaneously scouring the sad notice of temporary closure that only served to reinforce my disappointment and with it the dawning realisation that I’d be eating somewhere else today.
I must have had a look on my face of complete bewilderment and disappointment in equal measure, when my friend Tony Lloyd, who had observed my frozen form as he made his way through PCH, quietly walked up to my side, still invisible to me, and said very gently and so caringly, with a wicked twinkle in his eye: ‘is there a daughter we could ring?’
Rest in peace Tony.”
Paul Dennett, the Mayor of Salford, said:
“Sir Tony Lloyd MP was a great man, a person & politician of great integrity, someone who often did the right thing quietly, without fear or favour, a great friend of Salford & its peoples. My thoughts & prayers are with Tony’s family & friends at this time”.
Outside the world of politics, Tony’s real and unending love was for his family, and it was in that context that I first met him. At the age of five, in Stretford, he was my first ever MP, although I did not know that at the time, when I was running around his and his wife Judith’s house, driving everyone mad playing “She-Ra: Princess of Power” with his daughter Siobhan, who was my friend at school. We were usually having a row about who would be in the role of She-Ra that day, causing Tony or Judith to have to come and sort out the problem diplomatically.
I remember a house and family full of love and warmth, and a family who often supported mine. It was only years later that I realised what Tony actually did for a job. That was important because, growing up, there was a tendency to believe that MPs were in some special class of their own, and that people from backgrounds like mine could not be MPs. But Tony was different. He was one of us, a man of the people, and a proud member and supporter of the Irish diaspora in Manchester. He gave me the courage to believe that if he had become an MP and could serve to help people, then maybe—just maybe—people like me could do it, too.
I send all of Salford’s deepest love and prayers to Judith, Siobhan, Angharad, Kieron, Ali, Carmen, Carys and all Tony’s family and loved ones. To Tony, I say: “You were an inspiration to all of us in this place. If we can be just one ounce of the good man that you were then I know the world will be far better, kinder place.”
Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab)
It is a special politician who gets a tribute covering the whole front page of the Manchester Evening News with the headline “An example of honesty, principle and kindness”, a quote taken from comments from the Mother of the House but echoed by so many in recent days. The tributes often mention what an outstanding public servant Tony was, and what a good, kind person he was. He was always ready with a kind word to me in difficult times; in particular, I remember his sympathy when my mum died.
To those of us who have been involved in Greater Manchester politics for a long time, Tony was a giant. His record of public service is unparalleled—as a councillor, MP, police and crime commissioner and Mayor, he was a hugely respected and influential figure. He will be missed across greater Manchester, but also across Parliament. The respect he was held in on all sides of the House been clear today and in recent days. Perhaps what I admired most about Tony was that his contributions were always so thoughtful. They came from a place of principle, and he always had great conviction, but he was always measured and able to look at the big picture with great knowledge and experience. His wisdom will be missed across this House.
As a long-time resident of Chorlton in my constituency, he will be missed by the local community. As a familiar face on Beech Road, he was liked by everyone. Among many tributes, I was touched to see the following written by staff from Ludo’s deli on Beech Road:
“We are all very sad at Ludo’s. One of our loveliest customers, so supportive. I’m already missing him and all the lovely chats we had about everything and nothing. All our thoughts are with his family and friends”—
as are all our thoughts today.
Finally, he will be missed by his friends in the Bowling Green and the other pubs in Chorlton, where he liked to chat about politics or Manchester United over a pint, and especially by his colleagues in our local Labour party, who admired and respected him so much.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
It is so sad that today we are paying tribute to our dear friend and colleague, and my constituency neighbour, Tony. I have listened to so many stories this afternoon, and it is a testament to the person Tony was that people from all sides of the House have spoken so strongly about him. I hope that provides some comfort to his family and his staff, who I know loved him so much.
One thing that sticks out is not only the enormous impact that Tony had on British politics, but the high regard in which he was held, which is quite unusual in this place. What has really stood out is that almost everyone has an individual story and mentions his kindness. I absolutely agree with that. My recollection is of the kindness he showed me when I was a new MP and he was chair of the parliamentary Labour party.
As police and crime commissioner, Tony organised a roundtable on tackling violence against women and girls. He invited me along because he knew that I was passionate about that. He showed such empathy to the women who were there because of their experiences. I also remember his help in a constituency case for a mum who had lost her son to murder. Again, the way he was with her was quite remarkable. Most recently, when we knew that Tony was poorly, I was really keen to organise a Parliamentarians for Peace event—thank you for that, Mr Speaker—and as soon as I sent the message around, he was the first to respond, saying, “Yes, we must do something. I’ll be there.” Unfortunately, he was not able to be there, but I knew that he absolutely wanted to be.
Tony was the embodiment of politics as public service: deeply humble, conscientious and compassionate. He worked tirelessly in the interests of his constituents, not for himself. As a constituency neighbour, I know the work that Tony put into his work in Rochdale. He called me just before Christmas, because there was a particular issue that he said he needed my help on and wondered whether the wording of a letter was just right. The way he worked was so collaborative; it was quite special. Tony was not interested in politics as a game or a sport. He was passionate about changing lives and our politics being the vehicle to do just that. I will always think about his poignant words when speaking to a young constituent:
“For me politics is about all people, it’s that sense of human solidarity that matters. If it’s not about making people’s lives better, don’t be a politician.”
I ask all colleagues, in Tony’s memory, to redouble our efforts to make people’s lives better. Rest in peace, Tony.
Navendu Mishra (Stockport) (Lab)
I first met Sir Tony about 10 years ago. Like my constituency neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), I was young once. At the time, I was active in Young Labour and was fundraising for Hazel Grove constituency Labour party in Stockport. Tony did not know me, but his office was helpful and he made the time to come to Hazel Grove and fundraise for a CLP that at that time had no Labour councillors and a Liberal Democrat MP. Not only did he come to the fundraiser, but he spent the entire evening with us and spoke to each and every person. We had a table for Young Labour activists and he went over and spoke to each and every one of them. He inspired me and many people on that table. Many are now Labour councillors and Labour party activists. His demeanour was very soft: he spoke softly and chose his words wisely. Many colleagues on both sides of the House have said that we could all learn from the way he conducted himself.
It has also been mentioned that he was an internationalist. He believed in a better world for everyone, both in the UK and across the world. I remember inviting him to speak at an event at the Mechanics’ Institute in Manchester in 2017 for the Cuba solidarity campaign, supported by Unison the trade union. He impressed us all with his Spanish skills: he delivered parts of his speech in fluent Spanish and he was also able to translate. I was in awe of him, because I had wanted to learn Spanish for a long time and had never quite managed to get there. He was giving a speech and, out of nowhere, kept moving between Spanish and English. It was quite impressive.
When I was in the Labour Whips Office, he was in my group and I had frequent interactions with him. He was always very kind with his time. Unfortunately, when he was not well recently he asked me to be his proxy vote in the parliamentary Labour party and, for a while, in the Chamber. I remember my last conversation with him. He was coming up those stairs into the Chamber and said to me, “We were supposed to have that pint.” I said, “Tony, please let me know what works for you and I will take you to my favourite pub in Stockport to have a fine pint of cider.” He said that he would.
One of my last messages to him on WhatsApp was on 29 December. I said, “Tony, I hope you are well. Please let me know if you have any availability and I would love to have that pint with you.” He did not respond and I was a bit disappointed, but when I messaged him two days later, on 31 December, to wish him a very happy new year, he responded straightaway. Looking at my messages, his last message was to wish me a happy and successful 2024.
A lot of people have said—and I agree with them—that he will leave a massive hole in Greater Manchester politics, but I think it is bigger than that: he will leave a massive hole in British politics. It is uncommon for someone to be remembered fondly on both sides of the House, particularly a politician, so it is nice to see that there are colleagues from all the major parties here to speak about their memories of Sir Tony. On behalf of the people of Stockport, my thoughts and prayers are with his family, his friends and his staff members.
Andrew Western (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
Colleagues have already ably described Tony’s internationalism, socialism and trade unionism, but as one of my predecessors as Member of Parliament for Stretford, I want to pay tribute today to his local work, his collegiate nature and the way he went about his business. His personal style was unique, but it was also incredibly impressive.
Tony was a true son of Stretford. Born and raised locally, he was extremely well-regarded and conscientious as a constituency MP from 1983 to 1987, even if being born locally made it inevitable that he was a fan of Manchester United—you can eventually learn to forgive that in a person. He was known locally not only as a man of absolute principle—the person that so many of us are familiar with here—but as a person who got things done for the community. Indeed, during my own election campaign that led to me coming to this place in 2022, Tony, who made frequent visits to the campaign trail, was often recognised by local residents and his time as an MP remembered favourably. What was all the more remarkable was the fact that he often recognised those residents too, some 25 years after he had ceased to be the MP for Stretford.
But that was Tony all over. He treated everybody he met with courtesy. He earned respect because he gave it without question. There have been many tributes to Tony in recent weeks, but the one that chimed with me most was from a former member of Tony’s staff team who said that the thing she admired most was that he always treated working-class people with respect, and that that means everything, especially to people who have rarely been treated like that before. It may sound like a small thing, but it is less common than it should be, and what a mark of the man.
I guess in total I have known Tony for almost 20 years, but it was when I became the group leader on Trafford Council and Tony was the police and crime commissioner and then the interim Mayor of Greater Manchester that I first saw him in action. That was, as we have heard, an incredibly tough gig, but Tony went about it with his usual inclusiveness and he was truly exceptional; a famously international person who knew that, when all was said and done, for real working people all politics was local. He also understood that crime was a working-class issue, which is what had driven him to become the PCC in the first place. He cared about the people and communities he served, and that shone through. Whether in this Chamber, in his constituency, or indeed having a pint with him in the Beech in Chorlton with our mutual friend Councillor Thomas Robinson, that spirit of public service shone through.
Tony’s approach to serving people was the same as his approach to supporting colleagues: human solidarity. That quiet word, that nod of encouragement, that message to keep going. The phone call he made to me in November because he had heard I was having some issues in the constituency, just to check that I was okay and to make sure that I felt supported. We heard similar from the hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Chris Clarkson). It was something he also extended to my own mother when she was facing a tough election campaign in 2016. I will always remember the phone call that he made to her at 4 am, having got the number from Judith, to congratulate her on her re-election.
Tony really was an outstanding man. When I look for the word that sums him up best, I find that it is “thoughtfulness.” He was an exceptional parliamentarian, he was an outstanding community politician, but above all he was fundamentally a thoroughly decent man.
Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)
We have heard much about the many roles that Tony played during his time in politics, in the House, in the Labour party, as a police and crime commissioner, and as the interim Mayor of Greater Manchester. He was also a champion of the underdog, someone we could all learn from and someone I absolutely looked up to. He was a great friend of mine from his time as the shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. I was a newbie in this place in 2019, and he helped me to navigate the corridors and the strange rules that govern this place.
The chair of the parliamentary Labour party, the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer), talked about Tony’s tolerance and restraint. I can tell you, Mr Speaker, that when he was the shadow Secretary of State, during a very difficult period in our politics, we put those qualities to the test many times, and in the numerous meetings that I attended with Tony and representatives of other political parties in Northern Ireland, there was not much tolerance and restraint on display, but he was there to calm us all down.
I think it important for me also to say that Tony’s interest in Ireland did not start when he became shadow Secretary of State; it was a decades-long pursuit of truth, justice and peace for the people of our island. His friends in Ireland will never forget him, as he never forgot us. I was delighted to host him in Derry a few months ago for a few pints in a local hostelry, where we had great craic and told great stories, and to see him again in the Strangers Bar for a pint just before Christmas—sometimes we actually met without having pints.
One thing stood out to me on the many occasions on which I saw him after he got sick. We all knew that he was not well, but he wore it so lightly. As others have said, he did not talk about himself or his own illness; he talked about us and asked us questions about how things were going. I think of some of the contributions that he was making in this place at the end of his career. He was talking about arms exports to Israel, he was talking about Rwanda, and he was talking about and advocating on behalf of private tenants who were not being treated properly. He was an advocate for the voiceless until the very end.
I want to extend our sympathy and love to Tony’s family and friends, and to all who loved him. On behalf of the people I represent on our island, I say, “Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam”. May he rest in peace.
Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
I have a thousand stories to tell about Tony, having met him 40 years ago as member of the Fianna Phádraig pipe band in Stretford during an Armistice Day event, but I will save them for the Stranger’s Bar later.
My sympathies first go to Judith, who continues her work as councillor for the Longford ward in Trafford.
Tony was an active member of the Catholic community here in Westminster. Father Alexander has asked me to convey to the House that the Catholic mass at 6 pm tomorrow in the Chapel of St Mary Undercroft will be for the repose of the soul of Tony, and that all will be welcome.
Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)
I met Tony when we became corridor neighbours after his 2017 election, but I knew of his reputation and was somewhat in awe of it. When I worked with him, my Irish-Mancunian Aunt Margaret messaged me to say, “You’re working with our Tony!” She was so proud and told everyone in Middleton about my great rise.
Although 2018 was a difficult time in the Labour party, in our country and in Northern Ireland, Tony assumed the role of shadow Secretary of State with his usual calm, professionalism and guiding political principles. Knowing my interest in Northern Ireland, he brought me into the team. It is still a mystery to me that when I became a shadow Northern Ireland Minister there was no announcement, there were certainly no tweets, and I am not even sure that the Office of the Leader of the House knew that the number of people in that team had risen from two to three. Along with the aforementioned Steve Pound, I became part of a trio. What a time that was—again, perhaps there will be stories later.
Tony was not going to allow a bit of procedure, or indeed convention, get in the way of pragmatism and what he thought was needed at the time. He wanted to have a woman in his team—he was a great supporter of women’s equality. It was such a great pleasure to work with him at that time. Wherever we went, whoever we met and whatever difficult discussions we had—and there were many—with all political parties it was exactly the same. We met the political parties, we met those victims of the terrible violence in Northern Ireland, for which people are still struggling to get justice, we met campaigners for a new and different Northern Ireland, we met the Irish Government, and we met Tory Ministers, with whom we had difficult but always respectful conversations. Tony was exactly the same at all those meetings: calm, informed, respectful and, ultimately, very wise.
Sadly, there are not always enough people in this place who are interested in the affairs of Northern Ireland, so we often had a lot of down time between debates. We were often here quite late when everyone else had gone on to do other things. We also spent a lot of time travelling, and I learnt so much. I have not met most of Tony’s family, but I feel that I know about them, and we shared the great love that we both felt for our families.
I remember waxing lyrical—as I am sometimes wont to do, but will not do now—when asking his advice about how best to be a good MP, and how best to use Parliament. Should MPs stay on the Back Benches, should they take a position on the Front Bench, should they join Select Committees, should they try to introduce private Members’ Bills? He stopped, raised his hand, took a sip of his pint and asked me, “Can you do joined-up writing?” [Laughter.] And I can, Mr Speaker. When I said that I could, Tony said, “There is always a job to be done in this place by people who can do joined-up writing.” What he meant was that MPs should have a clear focus on their constituents—there is a job to be done there, which he did really well—but after that they should do what they feel is right for them, where they think they can make the most difference. But he also meant, “Enjoy the great privilege that you have.”
I will miss Tony for that sense of fun, for that mischievousness, and for his great wisdom and friendship, particularly over the last couple of years when he was ill. We all seem to have spoken to him and received texts in the last two months, so that phone bill must be very high. Tony had no intention of dying when he spoke to us in those last conversations, but I know from the work that he did with me on assisted dying and the right of people to choose their moment of leaving that that choice to be at home with the love of his family would have been a very important one. Our main thoughts are with his family and close friends. I thank everyone for sharing them, and may he rest in peace.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
Let me explain to our friends opposite that the reason so many of us loved and respected Tony was that, for us, he was one of the finest socialists and trade unionists that we had ever met. If he were here, however, I think he would be asking why we are not celebrating one of his greatest attributes.
Tony was possibly the best political plotter any of us have ever come across. He was always plotting for a cause, and it was usually the right cause. I remember the plot that made him the chair of the trade union group in Parliament. At that time the Labour leadership were perhaps not as amicable as they are now. It was said that they always looked on the trade unionists as the uninvited uncle at the wedding who turned up every now and again. What Tony became was the bridge between the trade union movement and the then Labour leadership, and that held together our relationship with the movement overall. Then there was the plot to make him chair of the PLP, to oust Ann Clwyd, as Members may recall. It was a Brownite plot—and a prominent Brownite, my right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown), is sitting beside me—but it was also a good cause. Tony saw that the leader dominated the PLP, and that there needed to be a political balance that reflected all the different views.
A large number of people would not have voted against the Iraq war if it had not been for Tony. He led by example on every occasion, on a very principled basis. If he were here today talking about Palestine, he would be leading for the Palestinian people.
I was in the Shadow Cabinet with Tony. Some colleagues may remember that there was not an awful lot of fight for jobs in the Shadow Cabinet; fending off the monthly coup took a bit of our time. The reason he came in was his loyalty to the cause and his loyalty to the party. Whoever was leader, he was loyal and he did his job. We appointed him shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, because I do not know anyone else who could get that lot talking to one another in the same room in that way. That is why we loved and respected him—because he was part of us, he was part of our movement: a trade unionist, a socialist, a parliamentarian of the highest degree. He knew how this place worked and he was able to use that, just as he did for the party, for the best of causes and the best of objectives. That is why we will greatly miss him, exactly as the leader of the party has said. The foundations that we lay in the future will be based upon the principles that he advocated and convinced so many people of.
Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab)
I was a bit worried today because I thought I was going to be overwhelmed with emotion and also because I thought I might find out that I was not Tony’s favourite MP. It was the mark of a good leader and a good man that he made people feel like they were his favourite and that he was telling them something special. I cannot tell you how long I have known Tony because I have been in the trade union movement for so many years and our paths crossed all the time; we were campaigning all the time on so many different issues. But I remember in 2005 when I came into Parliament, I was quite obviously distressed about something—I do not know what—and I remember Tony putting his hand on my shoulder quite gently and saying, “Dawn, you’re often going to feel lost in this place, but don’t worry.” He said that if I ever had any questions I could always ask him, no matter how silly those questions were, and I have passed that on to new MPs that come in. I always say, “If you have a silly question, ask me. It’s okay”, because I remember how Tony made me feel when he said that.
Tony also told me not to believe people who said they knew how this place worked, because inevitably they do not. That I carry with me too. The last conversation I had with Tony was at the bottom of the stairs by the Opposition office and I remember he asked me how I was and how my health was. And I thought, “Oh my goodness, he is going through what he is going through.” I remember sending him a message that me and the hon. Member for Neath (Christina Rees)—who cannot be here today but would really want to be—were feeling quite lost and we did not know what to do—[Interruption.] I do not know how to portray to the family—sorry; how to portray to the family how much he meant to us.
Ms Marie Rimmer (St Helens South and Whiston) (Lab)
It has been a real comfort to me to listen to so many tributes for such a wonderful man that I have the highest respect for. I had the pleasure of knowing Tony for many years and it was a joy to work together in Parliament after decades of friendship. He was such a kind, caring, compassionate man. Tony could not help himself from helping others. Every day was a day of action to help others to make life and things better. Only last month, I was at the all-party parliamentary group on Belarus—he corrected me on how I pronounce that—which was chaired by Tony, and he was fighting as passionately as ever for a free and democratic Belarus. That was just last month. Tony was kind and softly spoken yet so strong in his beliefs, and actions always followed them up. He was a dear friend to so many people and so well respected, and I am privileged to be one of those people. I always enjoyed chatting over a drink of tea in the Tea Room, and we would have many a laugh. I will miss Tony, my real friend. God bless Tony and God bless his family—may you take the same comfort that I have here today listening to so many well-deserved tributes.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
I wanted to speak today to pass on my condolences to Tony’s family, but also to mark somebody who is one of the most standout individuals I have come across in the 27 years that I have been in this House. I first got to know him soon after I was elected in 1997; we were members of the same trade union group. He was somebody who you looked forward to meeting socially around the place because he was always good company, and he was somebody who was always wise and worth listening to, whether it was here in the Chamber or in discussions elsewhere.
Perhaps I got to know Tony best when I joined the parliamentary Labour party committee when he was chair of the PLP. You will remember, Mr Speaker, as will those of us who were here at the time, what we went through with the expenses issues, where MPs came under a considerable amount of criticism. Tony’s leadership really came to the fore there. His calmness and his ability to influence what was going on were really exemplary. I used to sit in the committee when the civil servant—I will not name him—who had been invited to set up the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority came in to talk down to us, I have to say. Tony was very calm, as always, and I was not. I always thought that in his negotiations, Tony went away and said, “If you don’t negotiate with me, I’m going to set him on you.” His personal skills really got us through that time; I remember that time very well.
I was also a member of the Justice for Colombia group, and I know that they will want to pass on their sympathies to Tony’s family. He had enormous influence on the work of Justice for Colombia and in supporting the peace process in that country, which has eventually made enormous changes there. Tony was a driving force, both in the trade union movement and in this place, in supporting Justice for Colombia. He was the embodiment of the word “comradeship”—whether it was through his kindness and decency, his compassion, his courageousness, it all shone through. He was among the best of us, and we will miss him dearly.
Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab)
It has been so good to hear all these warm tributes to Tony. He was a man of such warmth, integrity and decency and that has resonated through everything that everyone has been saying. I got to know Tony when we both served in the shadow Cabinet and he was shadowing the Northern Ireland Secretary. Two things really struck me. One was the time that he would take to listen to people, to consider the problem they were grappling with and to give wise words of guidance. The other was the degree to which he cared about people so passionately. He worked tirelessly for his constituents, but also very genuinely for the people of Northern Ireland. I think that that has rung true this afternoon. I would just like to express my condolences to all of his family.
Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP)
I think what makes politics interesting for the people out there are great characters, and there is no doubt at all in my mind that the great Tony Lloyd was a great character. Anytime you met Tony and you left his company, you walked away with a smile on your face because there was always some witticism that he had left you with to think about. He always made you feel better about yourself and politics. I remember Tony talking to me about his great love not just for Greater Manchester but for the city of Glasgow and of course his other beloved football team, Celtic football club, which he insisted was Glasgow’s No. 1 football team. As a Partick Thistle supporter, I can only say that he was nearly correct in his summation. He was very proud of his Irish roots, as I and many others across this House are. His work with the Parliamentary Friends of Colombia has also been mentioned, and for so many of us he was a leader in raising that particular issue.
I think we always have to learn from each other, and one of my first conversations with Tony was about the vital importance of a constituency office keeping tabs on the full moon dates across the year. We all know why, don’t we? We can never say it here in public, but we know why. Full moon dates are a vital part of a constituency office’s work. I will always remember this great man and this great friend. I hope the WhatsApp messages between me and him are between us and no one else. I say to his family and to our Labour colleagues: our comradeship and our love are with you at this time as we remember the great Tony Lloyd.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
It is a pleasure to contribute to this debate. I am ever mindful of those who have spoken so, on behalf of my Democratic Unionist party colleagues, I express our sincerest and deepest condolences to Tony’s wife, Judith, and his four beloved children and adored grandchildren, some of whom are in the House today.
As is well documented and rightly lauded by Members, Tony’s rich service in this House began in 1983, some 41 years ago—two years before the start of my service as a councillor in 1985. I will briefly highlight the friendship that Tony gave to me and everyone in this House. He made friends very quickly, and it was particularly meaningful when we served together on the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. The right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) spoke about how, across the political parties, he brought us all together to focus on the things on which we could agree, rather than on the differences we sometimes have with each other.
Tony and I were often together in Westminster Hall, where he often spoke in debates on human rights and freedom of religion and belief. We were on the same side of the Chamber, obviously, but we were also on the same page in speaking up for those things. He was a voice for the voiceless, and boy did he speak up well. He was one of those people.
Although Tony and I may not have shared the same political opinion on the way forward in Northern Ireland, we shared respect and love for the country. Tony was knowledgeable on the intricacies of Northern Ireland and, although we did not always agree, his opinion was fair, reasoned and respectful. We enjoyed many a conversation in the Chamber, with me sitting here and Tony sitting just behind me. He often leaned over, and he was always softly spoken and incredibly courteous. He was always personable and often had a story. He never gave advice unasked, but he helped everyone who asked—that was the sort of advice he often gave to me. I enjoyed that.
Tony was a man of personal faith. Mr Speaker, I know that you and the family are ever aware of the importance of faith. The hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Mike Kane) spoke about that, too. I am reminded of 2 Timothy 4:7-8, which is a great scriptural text. He has fought the good fight, he has finished the race, he has kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for him a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award him on that day, and not only him but also to all who have loved his appearing.
That is the Tony we knew. He was well thought of and respected in this place, and his wisdom and wit will be sorely missed.
Mr Speaker
That concludes the tributes. I think the House is always at its best on such occasions, and today was exceptional. I am sure Tony’s family will be very proud of today’s tributes and comments. He will be greatly missed but never forgotten.
Business of the House
(10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Leader of the House of Commons (Penny Mordaunt)
I add my thanks to all Members who have paid tribute to the wonderful Sir Tony, not just today but over the past week, including the hon. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell). I sincerely hope that the words that have been heard today, and over the past week, will give some comfort to Tony’s family and friends at this difficult time.
With permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will make a short statement altering the business of the House for Wednesday.
Wednesday 24 January—Consideration of a business of the House motion, followed by all stages of a short Bill relating to Executive formation in Northern Ireland, followed by a general debate on the situation in the Red sea.
I will announce further business on Thursday, in the usual way.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I call the shadow Leader of the House.
Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)
It was a privilege to be in the Chamber for those fantastic and wonderful tributes to our dear friend, Tony Lloyd. I gave my tribute last week, and I will feel ever in his shadow as his successor as the Member for Manchester Central.
Labour share the Government’s desire to see an Executive restored as soon as possible, and if extending the deadline for elections to be called is the best way to achieve that, which it seems to be, we will, of course, fully support that. However, can the Leader of the House provide any update on the talks with the Northern Ireland political parties to achieve restoration of the Executive? It has been some time since we had an update.
Can the Leader of the House say for how long the period for Executive formation will be extended? Indeed, can she say when the Bill will be published? Giving the House just one day’s notice to pass an entire Bill in a day is far from ideal, especially when its detail is still unknown. Can she outline the Government’s plans for timetabling the Bill in the Lords?
Finally, I welcome tomorrow’s debate on the situation in the Red sea, albeit that the debate has been shortened. Can the Leader of the House tell us when the wider debate on other matters relating to defence and security will now take place?
Penny Mordaunt
I thank the hon. Lady and the Opposition for their support in this matter. The Bill, which she will understand is a very short Bill, will be tabled today and published tomorrow. I recognise that is a short amount of time for the House, but it is a very short Bill, and I think the House will be able to cope with that situation. She will understand that the timetable for this matter is very important.
I will make sure that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has heard what the hon. Lady said about an update, and she will know that the Government remain firmly of the belief that a sitting Northern Ireland Executive would be best placed to act quickly and effectively to resolve issues for the people they serve, and that is our aim. I am sure the debate will allow some of those issues to be aired, although it is a very narrow Bill.
Timetabling in the Lords is a matter for their lordships. I will make further announcements on future business in the usual way.
Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)
I too pay tribute to Tony Lloyd. It was really moving to listen to the contributions of his friends and colleagues, which reflected the warm and decent person he was.
I regret that we are having to deal with Executive formation in this place yet again, because it is always best for the democratically elected Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly to be in their place and governing in the best interests of the people of Northern Ireland. The longer this drags on, the more the people of Northern Ireland suffer, which is frankly unforgiveable.
I regret, too, that we are seeing parliamentary business created on the hoof by this Government, particularly in such a serious and sensitive area, but here we are again. Many of us warned of exactly this problem arising. We are here because of a mess of the UK Government’s making, but they refuse to acknowledge that the easiest way of resolving it would be closer alignment with the EU, which would make much of this go away. Instead, the Brexit bourach rumbles on—a bourach this Government caused and are unwilling to face up to and sort out. My hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson) will have much more to say on this tomorrow.
I have one question. Will this Government ever acknowledge their role in creating this mess and reconsider their hard-line rejection of the sensible option of returning to the single market?
Penny Mordaunt
The hon. Lady tempts me to go into detail on the single market, the customs union and the price we would have to pay for that, but you will be pleased to hear, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I will not.
The hon. Lady will know that we have twice extended the period for Executive formation through primary legislation and, despite the best efforts, restoration was not possible before the formation period expired on 18 January. She will know that bringing forward this legislation has been tied to talks and negotiations, which is why we have the current timetable.
Point of Order
(10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would appreciate your advice on what can be done in relation to the poor performance of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in responding to e-petitions. It has been agreed that the Government will provide a response to e-petitions that receive at least 10,000 signatures within no more than 21 days, but an e-petition calling on the Government to take the Clean Air (Human Rights) Bill through this House has been waiting for a response for more than 100 days and is now over 13 weeks late.
I wrote to the Environment Secretary on 28 November to highlight the delay in responding, and to ask for a response to this petition and an explanation for the delay, but I have not received a reply to that letter. This is not the first such letter I have had to write to the Environment Secretary about late responses to e-petitions. In the last year, the Petitions Committee has had to write to the Environment Secretary on nine occasions regarding significantly overdue Government responses. It is critical that petitioners, who are members of the public, get responses to their petitions in the agreed timeframes, and a failure to do so shows a lack of respect for the petitioning process.
Madam Deputy Speaker, can you advise on how I can ensure that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs responds to e-petitions in a timely fashion?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her point of order and for giving me notice of it. The Committee she chairs is entitled to receive a timely response to petitions and, just as importantly, so are members of the public who have signed them. I am sure that she was entirely correct to raise this matter and that Members will be concerned about it. She is lucky that the Leader of the House happens to be here. I sense that she might want to say something in response, because I have no power to compel the Secretary of State to reply to the hon. Lady’s correspondence. As I say, I am sure that we may see a response from the Leader of the House, so perhaps it would be most effective for me to allow her to make a brief comment.
The Leader of the House of Commons (Penny Mordaunt)
I am very happy to do so, Madam Deputy Speaker. As the hon. Lady knows, we do a lot to ensure that Departments are adhering to their obligations to this place. That takes the form of training, and of calling in Ministers and permanent secretaries in certain cases, and of course Members of this House can raise any such issues at business questions. I hope that Members know that I always respond to those questions and always take their requests and comments seriously. I will ensure that the hon. Lady’s point is followed up with the Department and that her office receives an explanation and, I hope, a swift answer.
Madam Deputy Speaker
I thank the Leader of the House for that. I am sure it is extremely helpful, but no doubt the hon. Lady will come back if problems persist, as I am sure that the Speaker would be concerned to hear about these delays.
Bill Presented
Children Not in School (National Register and Support) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Bridget Phillipson, supported by Catherine McKinnell, presented a Bill to provide for a national register of children who are not pupils at any school; to require local authorities to provide data about such children in their area for the purpose of maintaining that register; to make provision about the support that local authorities provide to such children; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Wednesday 7 February, and to be printed (Bill 149).
Offensive Weapons
Tuesday 23rd January 2024
(10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Offensive Weapons Bill 2023-24 View all Offensive Weapons Bill 2023-24 Debates Read Hansard Text Watch Debate
A Ten Minute Rule Bill is a First Reading of a Private Members Bill, but with the sponsor permitted to make a ten minute speech outlining the reasons for the proposed legislation.
There is little chance of the Bill proceeding further unless there is unanimous consent for the Bill or the Government elects to support the Bill directly.
For more information see: Ten Minute Bills
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision about the weapons to which section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 applies; and for connected purposes.
John Ogunjobi, Glendon Spence, Jude Gayle, Donnell Rhule, Dennis Anderson, Beatrice Cenusa and Ronaldo Scott—those are the names of those who have lost their lives to knife crime in my constituency since I was elected in 2015, along with two other victims I am unable to name because their cases are before the courts. Each one was loved by their family and friends. Each one had hopes and dreams for the future. Each one left a family and a community utterly devastated by their loss. And for each of these lives that have been lost, there are many more people who have been injured with a knife, some suffering life-changing injuries, all suffering significant psychological trauma. This issue is not unique to my constituency or to London, as this is happening across the whole country—in Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Kent and many other places, young lives are being lost, with families and communities devastated.
I am grateful to all the colleagues who have expressed their support for this Bill; they come from many areas of the country and from different parties. There were many more than there is space for signatories to the Bill.
Knife crime has a devastating impact on local communities, as well as families. It takes away any sense of safety and security, makes young people afraid and traumatised and acts as a barrier to self-belief, aspiration and engagement in education and learning. In August last year, I attended an end-of-summer celebration at a local youth centre. I watched young people perform songs, raps and poems they had written and produced themselves. There was nothing but love and support in the room as we celebrated everything they had achieved together. A few days later, I met some of those same young people again nearby at a police line, watching as the body of a young man they knew was being removed from underneath a forensics tent, after he had been fatally stabbed. We all felt utterly bleak; it seemed that all of the good work of the whole summer had been completely undone in that moment.
I pay tribute to the many people in my constituency who work so hard to reduce serious violence, including the youth leaders who are so committed to supporting young people, keeping them from harm and helping them to follow their aspirations. I want to mention in particular Ecosystem Coldharbour in the Brixton part of my constituency, which is funded by the Mayor of London’s violence reduction unit; Code 7; the Rathbone Society; and KETRA—the Kingswood Estate tenants and residents association. I pay tribute also to Circle of Life Ignite, a group of mothers who have each lost a child to knife crime who are working to install bleed-stop kits in public places, so that the equipment needed to stem the bleeding from a knife wound can be accessed by members of the public and a serious incident can be prevented from becoming a tragedy.
There is some excellent work happening in our communities to tackle serious violence, but it is being frustrated and undermined by the increasingly horrific nature of the weapons that perpetrators of knife crime are able to access—so-called zombie knives or Rambo knives, machetes and ninja swords. I spoke last week with Malcolm Tunnicliff, the clinical director of major trauma at King’s College Hospital in my constituency, to ask him about the injuries his team sees from these weapons. He told me:
“we call it knife crime, but the victims we see have essentially been attacked with weapons of war.”
He told me that the injuries are devastating; with a normal knife, a victim might end up with a 2 to 3 inch scar, but zombie knives and machetes are very heavy weapons, and they inflict deeper slashes, which are incredibly disfiguring. Because they are so heavy, they are capable of cutting through tendons and bones, including the skull, so victims who survive frequently have brain injuries. The edges of these knives are often serrated, so they inflict terrible damage on vital organs. A bleed-stop kit is unfortunately woefully inadequate against such horrific weapons. Often the victims simply do not stand a chance, such is the severity of their injuries. In the case of the two most recent murders in my constituency, both victims died quickly at the scene.
Zombie and Rambo knives, machetes and ninja swords are readily available online. A quick Google search reveals many different weapons that can be purchased on Amazon, Temu and other online marketplaces for under £30. In a recent survey, Which? found that it was able to purchase items on Temu that were age-restricted or illegal under current UK law without any age verification. Google has been found to be profiting from the advertising of lethal weapons, including 17-inch zombie knives, “military tactical” blades and “zombie killer sword apocalypse machetes”, despite claiming to ban them. When such weapons are sold illegally, the enforcement is almost non-existent.
Knife crime is rising in England and Wales, having gone up by 4.7% in 2022-23 on the 2021-22 figure. There is much that can be done in communities to prevent serious violence: high-quality youth work, effective policing focused on building the trust of local communities, good mental health support, and high-quality employment and training opportunities all have a role to play. However, even where this good work is taking place, it is being undermined by the availability of lethal weapons. There is straightforward action that we in this place can take to help keep our young people safe. We can introduce an effective ban, backed up by robust enforcement, of the weapons that are being used to inflict the greatest harm.
Since 2016, the Government have promised repeatedly to introduce such a ban, but they have failed to act. In response to my recent written questions on the topic, the Minister for Crime, Policing and Fire responded that the Government would legislate “when parliamentary time allows”, yet the House of Commons Library has calculated that there were 21 days last year when the House rose early due to insufficient business, seven of which fell after the Government made its most recent promise to implement a ban. There has been parliamentary time, but the Government have simply not prioritised the issue enough to be bothered to act.
The communities I represent, and communities across the country, cannot wait any longer. Young people are dying on our streets because, in the words of the clinical director of emergency medicine at my local hospital, “weapons of war” are readily available to buy on the internet and have delivered to the doorstep. The ban the Government propose is insufficient. It is too narrow and it would leave the perpetrators of violence able to shift to a different weapon of choice, such as a sword.
My ban would extend to all zombie and Rambo knives, machetes and ninja swords, and it would cover the sale, marketing and possession of those weapons. There are very few legitimate reasons to have a hunting knife or a sword in London, or indeed in any area of the country. A licensing scheme with rigorous age verification could be introduced for any such legitimate purposes.
The issue is urgent. No family should have to endure the pain of losing a young person with their whole life ahead of them. I do not want to have to stand at a police line again, trying to find the words to say to parents who have had their whole world ripped out from underneath them, watching as a community is retraumatised once again. The issue is urgent—it is literally a matter of life or death—but it has not been treated as such by this Government.
I urge the Government to support my Bill, so that effective legislation can be introduced to remove these lethal weapons from our streets. If this Government will not act, the House can be assured that a Labour Government will.
Question put and agreed to.
Ordered,
That Helen Hayes, Wendy Morton, Florence Eshalomi, Marsha De Cordova, Bell Ribeiro-Addy, Alex Norris¸ Dawn Butler, Abena Oppong-Asare, Catherine West, Mr Virendra Sharma, Fleur Anderson and Seema Malhotra present the Bill.
Helen Hayes accordingly presented the Bill.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 23 February, and to be printed (Bill 148).
Opposition Day
Children Not in School: National Register and Support
(10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
16:58 - The House divided: - Ayes: 189 / Noes: 303 - Question accordingly negatived.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
It is probably a good idea if I share some of my thinking about this afternoon. Obviously, we have two debates and normally there would have been more time for them. I imagine the opening speeches will last about 15 minutes each, but I will have to put a time limit in place if we are to have time for the speeches in the next debate. The time limit on speeches by Back-Bench Members will probably be about five minutes. I hope that is helpful, but if anybody feels that they cannot squeeze enough in during that time, please let me know.
Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House condemns the Secretary of State for Education for her failure to tackle the crisis of persistent school absence; calls on the Government to immediately introduce legislation to amend the Education Act 1996 in order to establish a mandatory duty on local authorities in England to maintain a register of eligible children not in school, as set out in Part 3 of the Schools Bill [Lords] published in the 2022-23 Parliamentary session; and therefore makes provision as set out in this Order:
(1) On Wednesday 7 February 2024:
(a) Standing Order No. 14(1) (which provides that government business shall have precedence at every sitting save as provided in that order) shall not apply;
(b) any proceedings governed by this order may be proceeded with until any hour, though opposed, and shall not be interrupted;
(c) the Speaker may not propose the question on the previous question, and may not put any question under Standing Order No. 36 (Closure of debate) or Standing Order No. 163 (Motion to sit in private);
(d) at 3.00pm, the Speaker shall interrupt any business prior to the business governed by this order and, notwithstanding the practice of this House as regards to proceeding on a Bill without notice, call the Member for Houghton and Sunderland South or another Member on her behalf to move the order of the day that the Children Not in School (National Register and Support) Bill be now read a second time;
(e) in respect of that Bill, notices of Amendments, new Clauses and new Schedules to be moved in Committee may be accepted by the Clerks at the Table before the Bill has been read a second time.
(f) any proceedings interrupted or superseded by this order may be resumed or (as the case may be) entered upon and proceeded with after the moment of interruption.
(2) The provisions of paragraphs (3) to (18) of this order shall apply to and in connection with the proceedings on the Children Not in School (National Register and Support) Bill in the present Session of Parliament.
Timetable for the Bill on Wednesday 7 February 2024
(3)(a) Proceedings on Second Reading and in Committee of the whole House, any proceedings on Consideration and proceedings up to and including Third Reading shall be taken at the sitting on Wednesday 7 February 2024 in accordance with this Order.
(b) Proceedings on Second Reading shall be brought to a conclusion (so far as not previously concluded) at 5.00pm.
(c) Proceedings on any money resolution which may be moved by a Minister of the Crown in relation to the Bill shall be taken without debate immediately after Second Reading.
(d) Proceedings in Committee of the whole House, any proceedings on Consideration and proceedings up to and including Third Reading shall be brought to a conclusion (so far as not previously concluded) at 7.00pm.
Timing of proceedings and Questions to be put on Wednesday 7 February 2024
(4) When the Bill has been read a second time:
(a) it shall, notwithstanding Standing Order No. 63 (Committal of bills not subject to a programme order), stand committed to a Committee of the whole House without any Question being put;
(b) the Speaker shall leave the Chair whether or not notice of an Instruction has been given.
(5)(a) On the conclusion of proceedings in Committee of the whole House, the Chairman shall report the Bill to the House without putting any Question.
(b) If the Bill is reported with amendments, the House shall proceed to consider the Bill as amended without any Question being put.
(6) For the purpose of bringing any proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with paragraph (3), the Chairman or Speaker shall forthwith put the following Questions in the same order as they would fall to be put if this Order did not apply—
(a) any Question already proposed from the Chair;
(b) any Question necessary to bring to a decision a Question so proposed;
(c) the Question on any amendment, new clause or new schedule selected by the Chairman or Speaker for separate decision;
(d) the Question on any amendment moved or Motion made by a designated Member;
(e) any other Question necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded;
and shall not put any other Questions, other than the Question on any motion described in paragraph (15) of this Order.
(7) On a Motion made for a new Clause or a new Schedule, the Chairman or Speaker shall put only the Question that the Clause or Schedule be added to the Bill.
Consideration of Lords Amendments and Messages on a subsequent day
(8) If any message on the Bill (other than a message that the House of Lords agrees with the Bill without amendment or agrees with any message from this House) is expected from the House of Lords on any future sitting day, the House shall not adjourn until that message has been received and any proceedings under paragraph (9) have been concluded.
(9) On any day on which such a message is received, if a designated Member indicates to the Speaker an intention to proceed to consider that message—
(a) notwithstanding Standing Order No. 14(1) (which provides that government business shall have precedence at every sitting save as provided in that order), any Lords Amendments to the Bill or any further Message from the Lords on the Bill may be considered forthwith without any Question being put; and any proceedings interrupted for that purpose shall be suspended accordingly;
(b) proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any further Message from the Lords shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement; and any proceedings suspended under subparagraph (a) shall thereupon be resumed;
(c) the Speaker may not propose the question on the previous question, and may not put any question under Standing Order No. 36 (Closure of debate) or Standing Order No. 163 (Motion to sit in private) in the course of those proceedings.
(10) Paragraphs (2) to (7) of Standing Order No. 83F (Programme orders: conclusion of proceedings on consideration of Lords amendments) apply for the purposes of bringing any proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments to a conclusion as if:
(a) any reference to a Minister of the Crown were a reference to a designated Member;
(b) after paragraph (4)(a) there is inserted—
“(aa) the question on any amendment or motion selected by the Speaker for separate decision;”.
(11) Paragraphs (2) to (5) of Standing Order No. 83G (Programme orders: conclusion of proceedings on further messages from the Lords) apply for the purposes of bringing any proceedings on consideration of a Lords Message to a conclusion as if any reference to a Minister of the Crown were a reference to a designated Member.
Reasons Committee
(12) Paragraphs (2) to (6) of Standing Order No. 83H (Programme orders: reasons committee) apply in relation to any committee to be appointed to draw up reasons after proceedings have been brought to a conclusion in accordance with this Order as if any reference to a Minister of the Crown were a reference to a designated Member.
Miscellaneous
(13) Standing Order No. 82 (Business Committee) shall not apply in relation to any proceedings on the Bill to which this Order applies.
(14)(a) No Motion shall be made, except by a designated Member, to alter the order in which any proceedings on the Bill are taken, to recommit the Bill or to vary or supplement the provisions of this Order.
(b) No notice shall be required of such a Motion.
(c) Such a Motion may be considered forthwith without any Question being put; and any proceedings interrupted for that purpose shall be suspended accordingly.
(d) The Question on such a Motion shall be put forthwith; and any proceedings suspended under sub-paragraph (c) shall thereupon be resumed.
(e) Standing Order No. 15(1) (Exempted business) shall apply to proceedings on such a Motion.
(15)(a) No dilatory Motion shall be made in relation to proceedings on the Bill to which this Order applies except by a designated Member.
(b) The Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith.
(16) Proceedings to which this Order applies shall not be interrupted under any Standing Order relating to the sittings of the House.
(17) No private business may be considered at any sitting to which the provisions of this order apply.
(18)(a) The start of any debate under Standing Order No. 24 (Emergency debates) to be held on a day on which proceedings to which this Order applies are to take place shall be postponed until the conclusion of any proceedings to which this Order applies.
(b) Standing Order 15(1) (Exempted business) shall apply in respect of any such debate.
(19) In this Order, “a designated Member” means—
(a) the Member for Houghton and Sunderland South; and
(b) any other Member acting on behalf of the Member for Houghton and Sunderland South.
I draw the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.
Today, we seek the permission of the House to make time in the weeks ahead to pass legislation to protect the interests of children who are not in school; to use a day of parliamentary time to put their concerns first and them at the heart of our work; and to make real for one day the promise that only a Labour Government can bring—the promise of a Britain where children come first—because it is a national scandal that every day and every week so many children are not in school.
Absence from school is not simply a problem in itself; it is a symptom of deeper problems and a cause of further problems. While the package of measures that should tackle those problems—and under a Labour Government will tackle those problems—must be detailed and comprehensive, a key part of it is knowing where children who are not in school are instead.
Before I go further, I should emphasise that some parents choose lawfully and properly to educate their children at home. Many of them do so very well, very effectively and to a very high standard. Those children are not the focus of our concern today. Their parents do not have anything to fear from a register of children not in school—the register of the sort that the Leader of the Opposition and I seek the permission of this House to consider in a Bill next month.
Until very recently, support for that register of children not in school was a cross-party endeavour. Politicians across this House agreed with it. It was an element of the Schools Bill, which the Government introduced in the other place in the summer of 2022. The register also received support from professionals in children services. However, the Schools Bill disappeared from Parliament, but I pay particular tribute to the hon. Member for Meon Valley (Mrs Drummond) who has pressed this cause so hard among Members of her own party and brought her own Bill to this place.
The hon. Lady’s Bill had wide support outside the House too. Many supportive comments were offered to the hon. Lady on the legislation that she proposed, but the words of Julie McCulloch, the director of policy for the Association of School and College Leaders, bears repetition. She said that
“the Government really should be making the parliamentary time available to ensure that this simple and necessary measure passes into law. Frankly, the public will find it astonishing that there is no such register already.”
It is for exactly that reason that we today seek parliamentary time to put it into law as soon as possible. Of course, the hon. Lady and voices outside this House are not alone in recognising the crucial importance of the register. There were many distinguished supporters of that Bill, including on the Government Benches. I have informed all of the following hon. Members that I intend to reference them in this debate as a courtesy to them. They included the hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Dame Andrea Jenkyns), the hon. and learned Member for Eddisbury (Edward Timpson) and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis), who all went on to serve as Education Ministers. There was also the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker), who is not merely a former Education Minister, but is today Chair of the Education Committee, and the right hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Gavin Williamson), who is one of the Secretary of State’s ample collection of predecessors.
Support for legislation on children not in school is, of course, not limited to supporters of that Bill, none of whom was a Minister at the time. The hon. Member for Colchester (Will Quince), then a Minister in the Department for Education, was clear almost two years ago that he and his colleagues
“intend to legislate to ensure we have a ‘children not in school’ register.”
In respect of parents home educating their children, he rightly observed:
“That is something no parent who is doing the right thing should be concerned about”.—[Official Report, 14 March 2022; Vol. 710, c. 605.]
The right hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Nick Gibb) was admirably honest when still a Minister last summer. He said:
“We think a register of children not in school is important.”
We agree with him.
The right hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds), who is now back as a Minister, spoke, when launching a consultation, of the Government needing a register of children not in school
“to prevent vulnerable young people from vanishing under the radar.”
I could not put it better myself. Does he still hold to those words? If so, when will the Government get on with it?
The Children’s Commissioner for England, Dame Rachel de Souza, has repeatedly called for a national register. Of course, we know from her words in this place last month, that the current Secretary of State herself takes the view that
“it is my priority and I hope to legislate on it in the very short term.”—[Official Report, 11 December 2023; Vol. 742, c. 607.]
Sadly, she is not here today to lend her support to the motion. It is also sadly the case that she has been unable to convince her own Prime Minister, because he—as he never hesitates to make clear—is never very interested in the welfare of other people’s children. This failure by the Government to address the most serious and urgent barrier to learning in our schools—that children are not there—exemplifies a broader failing and tells a wider story.
Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way and congratulate her on exposing this scandal that is affecting children across our country. In my borough, the problem has gone up significantly since 2016-17. Does she agree that, given what happened during the pandemic and the failure of the Government to meet the requirement of additional funding, with a shortfall of £10 billion, young people are suffering? It is vital that there is mental health support along with the register to ensure that young people are supported in going back to school, because mental ill health is a significant barrier to their returning to school.
Bridget Phillipson
I agree with my hon. Friend. She makes an important point about the wider pressures that children and young people are facing. I will come on to precisely that point a bit later, but it is why I was so delighted that Sir Kevan Collins, the former Government catch-up commissioner, backed Labour’s long-term plan to ensure that we do address those challenges coming out of the pandemic.
Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab)
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and congratulate her on raising this important issue. Analysis by Labour estimates that more than 1,300 pupils in Wirral will miss half their lessons by 2026. That is an absolutely staggering figure. The National Education Union has pointed out that the scale of the impact of poverty on persistent absence should not be underestimated. I am sure my hon. Friend would agree that this Government have failed massively on child poverty and that they should listen to Labour, cut the cost of school uniforms and provide free breakfast clubs in every primary school.
Bridget Phillipson
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her support. Those are precisely the kinds of measures that a Labour Government would take right now to back families, cut child poverty and ensure that children are set up to succeed.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
One reason why children might drop out of the school system and, as my hon. Friend says, go under the radar is because they have had a parent sentenced to imprisonment. The charity Children Heard and Seen tells us that we know exactly how many Labradors are in this country but have no idea how many children are affected by parental imprisonment. We know it is a six-figure sum. Does my hon. Friend agree that we could use a register to try to get some data so that those children get the help they need, whether that is mental or physical support?
Bridget Phillipson
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for all her campaigning work on the important issue of supporting families and children where imprisonment is a factor in their lives, such as when a parent is spending time in prison or is in the criminal justice system. She raises the important issue—one that I will come to in the debate—of the need to get a better sense of all the information around a child so that we can better support all children and families.
Bridget Phillipson
I will give way one final time, then I must make some progress.
Ed Davey
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way. It is important that she has brought this critical issue to the House. Many groups of young children, as we have heard, are not in school for many reasons. One group that is particularly close to my heart is young carers. I am sure that she will know from all the evidence and analysis that, on average, young carers miss 27 days of school a year. That shows the absolutely urgent need to have a national carers strategy with a focus on young carers. Does the hon. Lady agree and will she commit her party to push that forward in government?
Bridget Phillipson
I agree that we absolutely must do more to support young carers, and I give the undertaking that a Labour Government would ensure that young carers’ voices, needs and rights and the support that should be made available to them are taken seriously.
Members on both sides of the House will be familiar with the view widely held by those on the Conservative Benches that whatever damage they might have done to our country, whether it be laughing in the face of voters waiting year after year for NHS treatment, as the Prime Minister did last week, the sewage that fills our rivers and seas, or the growing crisis their party has created in provision for children with special educational needs and disabilities—separate from all that—at least the education that children receive in our country is something the Conservative party has not yet damaged beyond repair. The trouble with that belief is that if it were ever true, today it is no longer.
At the end of last year, the OECD’s programme for international student assessment 2022 results came out. Conservative Members have for many years taken a keen interest in the results, which I should say at the outset are based on such a small sample in England that they may not be altogether robust—a point to which I intend to return. Close observers will have noticed that, over a number of years, the intellectual effort by the Conservative party and its apologists has moved from explaining to concealing what the results show, and from regarding them as a spur to action to taking them as an excuse for complacency. We are in a debate on an education matter, so I hope that Members across the House and you, Madam Deputy Speaker, will forgive me if I briefly adopt a didactic tone.
The PISA score for each country shows how well that country is doing at educating its children across reading, maths and science. The PISA rankings are about how well the children in that country are doing relative to children in other countries. Rather obviously, that ranking is affected by not merely how well children do in other countries, but how many other countries are involved. Going up or down the rankings need be no measure of changing outcomes for children in England, nor of any success for this Government. It is therefore the scores, not the rankings, that are the proper focus of Government attention.
It is not enough that our children are doing better than children elsewhere if they are doing worse than their older siblings, nor is it a comfort that their reading is better than that of children in another country if it is worse than their brothers and sisters. Education is not a contest between nations, but a shared endeavour in every country and across our world to give children the very best start—not some of our children, but all of them.
The PISA results showed that standards in England’s schools are going backwards in science, in reading and in maths. They may not be going backwards as fast as they are elsewhere, but the pace of failure ought not to be a source of pride. Some 14 years into a Conservative Government, they focus carefully on the rankings, not the scores, and their proudest claim is that other children for whom they are not responsible are getting an even worse education overseas.
It beggars belief—and it is no good blaming the pandemic. The pandemic was worldwide, but not every country has gone backwards. That slow failure is not a story of poor teaching, of staff not pulling their weight or of leaders not rising to the challenges they face. It is structural, reflecting choices made in Downing Street and the priorities of the Conservative party: tax breaks for private schools, not standards for state schools, and smaller bills for the super-rich, not better starts for children. The one area in which this Government excel is the creation and maintenance of fresh barriers to learning.
Schools may crumble—indeed, despite the Secretary of State’s well-publicised view of the quality of her own work, the BBC’s “Panorama” programme last night showed powerfully that schools do crumble—but nothing seems to stop Ministers putting fresh barriers in the way of our children getting the education they deserve. There are barriers because the children are neither at school nor in home education; barriers because children are not ready that day, or that year; barriers because children have not slept and cannot concentrate, do not succeed when they should and are not learning when they ought; barriers because children simply are not well; and barriers that speak to the wider failure, and the piling of expectations on schools alone that schools alone can never meet.
Child poverty’s effects do not end as the classroom door closes. The good night’s sleep, the space to do homework and the quiet undisturbed time at home are all missing from far too many of our children’s lives. As I mentioned earlier, the PISA results are based on such a small sample in England that they may not be altogether robust, and that points, indirectly, at the problems we face—the problems with which the next Labour Government will and must contend, because this Government have not, are not and will not. Teaching children who come to school does not help those who do not, supporting children we know about will not bring in the ones we do not, and the results for children who are there are not meaningful for the children who are not. That is true for PISA, true for GCSEs and true for A-levels.
Labour’s belief is simple: excellence is for everyone—not just for those who are in school every day, but for those who are not. High and rising standards must be in every school, in every classroom and for every child, but today, all too clearly, they are not. Across the autumn and spring terms last year, more than 1.5 million children were persistently absent from school. That is, roughly speaking, one in five children, or more than double the number who were absent during the same terms five years ago. If that rise goes on, the number of children persistently absent will rise to more than 2 million in 2025-26, or one in four children missing at least a day each fortnight. That is a disaster, and the Government are doing as close as they can to nothing at all.
Let me quote to the House the words of the headteacher of a state secondary school in the north-east, earlier this month:
“Today, an unremarkable Wednesday in the second week back after a two week holiday, 10% of our students are absent from school. 17% of Year 11 students, those in the most important examination year of their lives, are absent. We’ve become used to these statistics and sadly, these patterns of absence are now considered normal in schools. Indeed, our attendance is higher than national and local averages.”
Ministers will doubtless tell me they are proud of their attendance hubs, and the 10 councils in which they are set to deliver attendance mentoring. The Secretary of State might as well be proud of the water pistol she brings to a wildfire. School leaders know it is a disaster. They can see the catastrophe unfolding around them.
Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op)
My hon. Friend is giving a truly excellent speech. She has talked about barriers; does she agree that one of the big barriers is the fact that children with a neurodivergent condition cannot get a diagnosis and, even if they do, they cannot get an education, health and care plan or a SEND plan? That is creating huge barriers for children with neurodiversity and autism to access school in a safe environment.
Bridget Phillipson
My hon. Friend is absolutely right about the challenges right across our SEND system—a system that the Secretary of State herself has described as “lose, lose, lose.”
School leaders know that this is a disaster, yet earlier this month the Department updated us all on the work of the workload reduction taskforce. It is not the work of teachers, the taskforce clarifies, to investigate a pupil’s absence. Teachers may do it—it is vital work that needs doing—but it also depends on our amazing support staff.
Labour’s plan to tackle the attendance crisis starts with our smallest children. It includes a childcare system modernised from the end of parental leave to the end of primary school, high-quality early education, a focus on life chances for children—not just on work choices for parents—and high and rising standards right from the start, with early language interventions to identify and remove barriers to learning, and a determination to reform the SEND system, to put money behind children, not lawyers, and to tackle issues before they hold children back, with a new focus on primary numeracy so that children love maths at six, never mind at 16—excellence for everyone; not for some of our children but for all of them. There will be free breakfast clubs in every primary school, because it is about the club, not just the breakfast. Every day, every child, every life and every start.
There will be 6,500 new qualified teachers and a new national voice for our support staff. Ofsted will be reformed and improved. We will end the high-stakes, low-information culture, with annual checks for attendance, safeguarding and off-rolling. There will be mental health councillors in our secondary schools and new community hubs outside them, joining up the information that we have on our children so that every child can be supported between schools and services—every issue caught, shared and addressed. And the cause for which we asked for time today? A law to register and count the children who are out of school.
Labour is clear on how we will fund that package and the change that we need: by ending the tax breaks for private schools and the mega-rich. We will invest in what we most believe in: our children and their futures, excellence for everyone, high and rising standards, and a Britain where background is no barrier to opportunity. The legislation that we will introduce next month, with the House’s permission if today’s motion is agreed to, will be simple: it will be part 3 of the Government’s own Schools Bill from 2022, which provided for a register of children not in school. That is nothing that Conservative Members would not have been prepared to vote for had it been tabled by their own Ministers, so there can be no reason or excuse for Conservative Members who care about this issue not to support the motion today and the Bill next month. They can choose their party or our children. I commend the motion to the House.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
As I said, I will need to put on a time limit if the next debate is to have any kind of parity with this one. The limit will be five minutes, and I will ensure that it is put up on the board so that Members are aware of it.
The Minister for Schools (Damian Hinds)
I warmly welcome the Opposition’s focus on the vital subject of school attendance. It is a big issue that we want everyone to talk about. Being in school matters for children—for their education, for their development, for being with their friends and for all else that school brings. As our campaign says “moments matter, attendance counts.”
Everyone will be off school at some point through illness, and sadly some have to be off for extended—sometimes very extended—periods, but we absolutely want children to be in school as much as possible and to cut out avoidable absence. I am sure that the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) joins me in celebrating the success in cutting absence since 2010 and prior to the pandemic. Attendance levels improved significantly, with absence falling from 6% in 2010 to 4.8%, representing 15 million more days in school. Persistent absence, which was at 16% in 2010, came down by almost a third by 2015, and stayed around that level until the pandemic.
Many education systems are dealing with increases in absence since the pandemic. That is true of jurisdictions far beyond these shores. It is also true in all of England and Scotland, and in Labour-run Wales—where, by the way, the increase is from a considerably higher starting point to a considerably higher current point than in England. As such, I welcome the hon. Lady raising this subject. The actual motion, however, suggests that it is perhaps not a subject that the Opposition are taking properly seriously.
The motion starts by saying that the Government are not tackling persistent absence. Let us set aside for a moment that that is plainly nonsense, as I will come to shortly.
Damian Hinds
Not at the moment. There then follows the most colossal conflation—a massive non sequitur—about a register of children not in school because they are home educated. Obviously, absence and “not in school” sound pretty similar, but if the hon. Lady really thinks that the issue around absence is all about children being home educated en masse, she has failed to grasp the issue. [Interruption.] I simply point the hon. Lady who speaks for the Opposition to the motion as it is printed on the Order Paper, which clearly connects the two statements with nothing more than a semicolon between them. We do think that local authority registers are important: they would help improve oversight of those children who are not on school rolls, but they would not directly address the larger group of children who are on a school roll but have been persistently absent from that school.
Damian Hinds
No; I ask the hon. Gentleman to forgive me for a moment.
Before we go on, I would like to say a short word about children in home education. This is often done very well by parents, who make huge sacrifices for their children, often in particularly difficult circumstances, and I pay tribute to those parents. Let us be clear: parents also have a right to home school their children, and that is a right I defend. However, we do think it is important for local authorities to have a register, because we know that not all children who are not enrolled at school are in receipt of a suitable education at home. We also think it is important that parents who are home schooling should be able to source support from their local authority.
The hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South should know that that is Government policy because, as she said, it appeared in the Schools Bill. She may or may not have spotted that in the past few days the Department has completed a consultation on elective home education to inform new guidance. I know she has spotted that a private Member’s Bill has been tabled in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Meon Valley (Mrs Drummond), which will come before this House on 15 March. Both the Secretary of State and I look forward to working with my hon. Friend as she seeks to progress her Bill through this House. In the meantime, the Government continue to work with local authorities to improve their existing non-statutory registers.
Several hon. Members rose—
Damian Hinds
I give way to the hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield), just because he has had a go three times.
Paul Blomfield
I thank the Minister for giving way. According to the 2021 census, there are over 197,000 young carers under the age of 18. That is recognised to be an underestimate, so when 85% of headteachers told the school census that they had no young carers in their school, that only illustrated how those carers are unrecognised within the system. Evidence submitted to the inquiry held by the all-party parliamentary group on young carers and young adult carers said that young carers have double the persistent absence rate of their peers—41.6%—but they are not recognised in the Department for Education’s guidance on working together to improve school attendance. When this debate has finished, will the Minister go away and review that guidance, and would he consider requiring all schools to have a lead for young carers in the way that they do for SEN, to make sure they are no longer unrecognised within our system?
Damian Hinds
The hon. Gentleman is right to identify the number of young carers growing up in our country and going through our school system and the particular needs they have, issues that are directly relevant in the case of absence. We are working to improve understanding of where there are young carers, including through the school census that the hon. Gentleman mentioned and also through the guidance that we issue. As he will know, “Keeping children safe in education” is the main guidance on that subject that is issued to schools: it requires designated safeguarding leads to be aware of the needs of young carers, but trying to understand those needs is something that goes broader within school communities. Of course, dedicated professionals working in our school system seek to do exactly that.
Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)
It is so generous of the Minister to give way. In my constituency, families struggle. The cost of living crisis is ever present, and the housing crisis forces many families to move from house to house. Children end up quite a long way from school because parents, understandably, want their child to have some level of stability and keep them in the school where they know their friends and their teachers. To be honest, my schools are brilliant and the teachers are really committed, but surely we need recognition that cuts to council budgets, combined with the massive increases in need that there are at the moment, are a contributing factor to children being out of school. Does he accept that?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Roger Gale)
Order. Can I just say to Opposition Members, first, that interventions should not be speeches; and secondly, that they are taking up their own time, and they will lose time on the second debate?
Damian Hinds
Of course, I readily acknowledge that cost of living pressures and inflationary pressures have been difficult for families in many ways. It is also true that the single most important thing to underpin family budgets is employment, and we are benefiting from the still very high rates of employment in this country. We are also benefiting from the proportion of people in work on low pay having come down significantly as a result of the national living wage. Yes, there is much more to do, but there is also a great deal happening. I should now make some progress.
To go back to the children not on school registers, the Government continue to work with local authorities to improve non-statutory registers. I have already mentioned the consultation on revised guidance for elective home education. Through termly data collection, we are also increasing the accuracy of registers, improving the understanding of this cohort of children. However, true accuracy can only be gained with mandatory registers, stipulating the data to be recorded and an accompanying duty on parents to inform local authorities when they are home educating.
We often say that reading is the most fundamental thing in education, because if someone cannot read they cannot access the curriculum, and then nothing else in school really works. However, there is one thing that is even more fundamental than reading, and that is attendance, because whatever great things our schoolteachers do, they can only benefit the children who are there to benefit from them.
I am pleased that we have started to see some progress in this area. There were 380,000 fewer pupils persistently absent or not attending in 2022-23 than the previous year. I am not quite sure how the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South does the extrapolation to her figure of one in four—[Interruption.] Well, that is not what the data series says. On Thursday, we will see the first data published for persistent absence in this academic year. We shall see what that says, but I hope it will show some further improvement. In any event, we certainly know that there is further to go.
Our comprehensive attendance strategy includes a number of different elements. There are clearer expectations of the whole system, including requiring schools to have an attendance policy and to appoint an attendance champion, and for local authorities and schools to agree individual plans for at-risk children. My right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford) will be leading a debate in Westminster Hall very soon in connection with and in support of her presentation Bill on making such obligations statutory.
On data, which the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South spoke about, our attendance data tool now provides near real-time information, not once a year, to allow earlier intervention and avoid absence becoming entrenched. We already have 88% of schools taking part in our world-leading daily registers data pilot, and we want that to be 100% by September.
Damian Hinds
I ask the hon. Member to forgive me, in the interests of time.
We have targeted support in which schools with strong attendance performance support others that need help, and we are expanding that so that almost 2,000 schools will benefit. Our mentoring pilot, which I think the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South inadvertently referred to, is delivering one-to-one support for persistently and severely absent children. That is currently taking place in Middlesbrough, Knowsley, Doncaster, Stoke and Salford, and it will be extended to 10 new areas, with a total of 10,000 children, later this year.
System leadership is incredibly important. That is why we have the attendance action alliance, which brings together leaders not only from the world of education, but from children’s social care, health and allied services. They are all working together to address the wider barriers to and enablers of attendance.
As I said earlier, we must be very clear that some children do need to be off school some of the time. That has always been the case, but there has been some change in attitude since covid, with a greater propensity to keep a child at home with minor illness, such as a cough or cold in some cases. We need to recalibrate at least back to where we were pre-covid. That is why we have launched the national campaign “Moments Matter, Attendance Accounts” to re-emphasise the importance of every day in school, not only for learning but for wellbeing, experiences and friendships.
Alongside this, we have made attendance a key theme of school and children’s services reforms. We have provided additional funding for recovery, including for tutoring and direct funding for schools. To help families, we have committed an additional sum of £200 million to scale-up the Supporting Families programme, which of course has a specific requirement on school attendance. We are also spending on the national school breakfast programme to provide around 350,000 breakfasts on a school day in over 2,500 schools, targeted at the most disadvantaged areas. I also say to the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South that we should look at targeting secondary schools as well as primary schools, because persistent absence can of course be particularly concentrated in the secondary age group.
There are now considerably more children in receipt of free school meals than the last time a Labour Government were in office. This is despite the fact—[Interruption.] This is despite the fact, I say to the hon. Lady, that there are 600,000 fewer children living in workless households and that, thanks to the national living wage, the proportion of people in work but in low pay has halved.
Mental health barriers are also a very important part of this. That is why we are working with NHS England to increase the number of mental health support teams. They already cover 47% of pupils in secondary schools, and that will increase to at least 50% across all phases by March next year.
I am pleased to report that the latest data shows that, while there is still a lot to do, there is some cause for cautious optimism. Overall attendance last term was 93.2%, up from 92.5% in autumn 2022-23, meaning that pupils in England on average attend the equivalent of around a day and a half more across an academic year than they did the previous year. So while there is still a long way to go, this does represent progress.
To conclude, for the vast majority of children school of course continues to be the best place for their education, and it has never been more important to be at school. England’s primary school children are now the best readers in the western world, and at secondary we have made considerable progress.
The hon. Lady said some interesting things about PISA, the main international study of attainment—not the only one, but the main one—in which England has moved up the rankings, having previously come down the rankings before 2010. The hon. Lady says that in the end it is the score, not the rankings, that matter, and she is of course right. I am surprised she does not know this, however: she said education has not been badly affected by covid in every country, but I have to tell her that covid has given a real knock to education across most of the world. [Interruption.] I beg the hon. Lady’s pardon? [Interruption.] It has taken a great knock across much of the world and much of the world is now engaged in recovery programmes to make up that ground. But what the PISA results showed is that the knock sustained in this country was less than in very many other countries.
The PISA results also highlighted something else about education in England. It identifies this country as being in the relatively small set of what it calls “equitable systems.” In other words, as well as having strong performance relative to other countries, that performance is well spread out.
There have always been some children who are educated at home, and I repeat my earlier tribute to parents who, in so many cases, give up so much to do this and do it so well. However, covid created a big increase on top of what was already growth in the numbers, and it is important that we understand that.
The wider issue is that the legacy of the pandemic has also meant that school absence levels are too high. We remain committed to working with pupils, parents, teachers, local authorities, the health service and other partners to tackle these issues through our support-first approach, building on the strengths of the current system and the success achieved by teachers and leaders in our schools prior to the pandemic. Being in school has never been more valuable for pupils, with standards continuing to rise. I am hugely grateful to all our brilliant teachers, heads, partners throughout the system and everyone who has worked to create the progress achieved so far, and I am confident there is a great deal more to come.
Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
This is not just an education crisis; it is a health crisis and a crisis of equality, too. The number of children who are not getting the education they are entitled to has, as we have heard, hugely increased in recent years for a variety of reasons. It is therefore no surprise that the figures that my party has produced show that over the autumn and spring terms, more than 1.5 million children were persistently absent from primary and secondary school, which is more than double the number of five years ago. A huge number of children are being let down, and their entire lives will be affected. It will impact on the opportunities they may have, never mind the education they are losing. If we are not careful, this crisis could see an entire generation written off, yet the figures continue to rise and the system seems unable to cope.
In my local authority area, Cheshire West, absence rates for pupils have roughly doubled in the past three years, leading to the crisis point we have reached today. There are a number of reasons for that huge increase, but undoubtedly a major factor from what I am seeing is how we are dealing with children with special educational needs. The number of pupils with an education, health and care plan in Cheshire West has risen by nearly 50% in three years, and that is before we talk about all those children who are yet to actually get an EHCP.
As I recount the stories of some of my constituents, the House will see how this issue is growing and how a depressingly familiar pattern is forming. A child is struggling at school, and there is often an undiagnosed medical issue. It could be that the pupil needs an EHCP or a referral to child and adolescent mental health services. Neither is easy to get, and all the while the situation at school is deteriorating. Eventually, the school says that it cannot deal with the child anymore, or the child cannot cope with school. Relationships break down and education grinds to a halt. Far too often in those situations, the feeling that parents get is that they are on their own.
What I hear from these children’s parents is that they just want to do what is best for their children, but they feel that they are on their own. They are often exhausted, always frustrated, and they feel they have to battle the whole time—the school, the NHS and the system—just to get the education their children have a right to. I will quote one parent, because she is worth listening to. She said:
“There needs to be more pastoral and mental health support within schools. This Government need to understand that a one size curriculum does not fit all. Children’s mental health services are so overstretched and under-resourced that young people are on waiting lists for months on end and no support while they wait. All of the above have contributed to my girls having lots of absences. Lots of letters home with threats of further action not only cause distress to young people, but also the parents.”
I attended the National Autistic Society event on education this morning and a useful phrase was used: “collaboration, not confrontation”. That should be a useful guide for us moving forward. The same event revealed that a survey said that three quarters of parents of autistic children do not think their children’s school meets their needs. Shockingly, only 39% of teachers have received more than half a day’s autism training. Those figures tell us an awful lot about where we could put some things right.
Whether it is an autism assessment or support for a mental health condition, my constituents are often waiting a year or even more just to get that assessment. A year is such a long time in a young person’s life, and waits of that length or even longer do not help the children who are obviously suffering with a whole range of issues. They may have anxiety and depression to the extent that they are not able to attend school. They may be self-harming and they are having to wait to get that assessment because their cases are supposedly not serious enough. We have to wonder what kind of system thinks that a year out of a child’s life, when every day of their education counts, is not worthy of more priority.
Finally, I will say a little about the Children and Families Act 2014. If a child with special educational needs has a named school on their EHCP, that school must admit the child, regardless of whether places are available. That is the law, but that does not seem to be happening in practice. After the battle the parent has in trying to get the EHCP in the first place, which can go on for months, if not years, the battle is still sadly not over. We are now seeing a trend where parents are fighting at the consultation stage, with potential schools being identified but refusing to take the pupils.
We are getting more and more examples of children becoming education orphans because no school will take them. Their conditions are often too complex for a mainstream school, but all the specialist schools are full. We know of a 14-year-old who has been out of education for three months because all the specialist provision in the area is full. We are helping a six-year-old with an EHCP who is at a mainstream school that cannot support him. Consultations are ongoing with three other schools, but so far two of them have refused to take him. The question for him is: when will he get that education? The question for so many other parents around the country is: when will their children get the education that they deserve?
Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)
Education is key to young people having access to skills and opportunities in the future, so we are right to be concerned about attendance. In spring last year, nearly 1.5 million children were persistently absent from school, which means that nearly one in five of our children were missing 10% or more of their school time: the equivalent of an afternoon or more every week. The sudden surge in persistent and severe absence risks a profound impact on educational attainment and longer-term outcomes. That is why before Christmas I tabled a Bill to tackle this issue, and I will be leading a debate in Westminster Hall shortly.
We should be proud of our nation’s young people. We should be proud that children in England now rank 11th in the world for maths and 13th for reading. Back in 2010, when today’s school leavers were just starting out in reception, the same league tables placed those same cohorts of children at 27th for maths and 25th for reading. There has been phenomenal progress; we must not let it slip.
The reasons for increased levels of pupil absence are often multiple and complex, including issues such as support for those with special educational needs and disabilities, anxiety and mental health. We know, for example, that if a child’s special educational needs are unmet, that can lead to them missing out on education. Changes in attitudes towards minor ailments may be another driving force behind school absences, and there may be other changing societal issues. It has been suggested to me that increasingly more addictive online gaming is impacting negatively on mental health and resulting in more children and young people missing school. I would like to see more research on that. For the most vulnerable pupils, regular attendance is an important protective factor. Absence from school can expose young people to other harms, such as being drawn into crime or serious violence.
In addressing school attendance, it is important that we do not simply lay the blame at the door of hard-working parents. Most parents want their children to do well, but many need help to support their children to fulfil that aspiration. Securing attendance requires an holistic approach, bringing together schools, families, the local authority and other local partners.
Much detailed work has already been undertaken on this issue. As the Minister said, in 2022, following a detailed consultation, the Department for Education published new guidance entitled, “Working together to improve school attendance.” It is over 60 pages long and extremely detailed, with a lot of emphasis put on early help and multidisciplinary support.
Last year, the Education Committee did a detailed inquiry on the issue of attendance. Witnesses agreed that the guidance needs to be put on a statutory footing, and that was a major recommendation from the inquiry. The Children’s Commissioner, the Centre for Social Justice and the Select Committee all support making it mandatory to follow best practice. Therefore, before Christmas, I tabled a private Member’s Bill that would make that happen.
The Bill would make the guidance statutory so that all schools, trusts, local authorities and other relevant local partners would need to follow it. It would introduce a new general duty on local authorities to use their functions to promote regular attendance and reduce absence, and require schools of all types to have and publicise a school attendance policy. The DFE has said that it will publish a revised version of the guidance ahead of the new provisions coming forward.
I note that the shadow Minister—who is not listening—has called for the introduction of a register of children who are out of school due to elective home education. I fully agree that improving the data and visibility of these children, so that councils can verify that they are receiving a suitable education in a safe environment, would be a good step forward. That is also supported by the Local Government Association. It is not part of my Bill, but is part of a separate Bill tabled before Christmas by my hon. Friend the Member for Meon Valley (Mrs Drummond), a former Ofsted inspector.
In order for the shadow Minister to get what she wants, all she needs to do is support the private Member’s Bill. If she really wanted it so much, why did she not ask any of the Labour Members who topped the private Member’s Bill ballot, coming in first, fourth and fifth place, to table it? It would have had its Second Reading last Friday and already be in Committee. My School Attendance (Duties of Local Authorities and Proprietors of Schools) Bill is scheduled to have its Second Reading on 2 February. I hope it will get cross-party support from MPs, including the shadow Minister, so that it can move forward swiftly.
Sarah Dyke (Somerton and Frome) (LD)
First, I extend my deepest sympathies to the family of Sir Tony Lloyd. I would also like to mention that, as Members will know, I am a proud Somerset councillor. Tory cuts to local authorities have had far- reaching consequences. In Somerset, that has been mixed with a toxic cocktail of the previous Tory administration’s financial ineptitude. This perfect storm has vastly increased the burden on local authorities to deliver high-quality statutory frontline services, which residents should expect.
Particular pressure is on education. In the 2022 autumn term, Somerset state schools had a primary school absence rate of 5.3%, including 3.2% due to illness. At secondary level, there was a 10.2% absence rate, including 4.9% due to illness. The statistics do not reflect what the illness is—acute or chronic, covid-related or not. That reflects a wider problem. We are treating children with SEND as a homogenous identity. I fully support a “children not in school” register, which reflects that data, as the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) proposes.
One of my constituents is 13-year-old Otis. He has a diagnosis of autism and Tourette’s syndrome. Otis first attended a mainstream school, but his parents told me that, despite the school’s best efforts, it did not work out for him. Otis then moved to a special school, the Mendip School in Prestleigh, but that did not work either, despite the school doing everything that it could. Otis’s parents said:
“Otis felt that he was placed with pupils with much more significant, and much more visible, needs. His education offer was gradually whittled until he did not go to the school site at all.”
If Otis takes up a rare special school place in September, he will have been out of school for two and a half years. The trend is clear. Pupils with SEND start school with absences and are either officially or effectively suspended or excluded.
Mind’s 2021 report “Not Making the Grade” showed that 68% of interviewed pupils had at least one absence due to mental health. We need top-down direction from the Department to ensure that schools do not unfairly penalise pupils with SEND for low attendance. That includes children with possible mental health issues who have not received a diagnosis because of the NHS backlog that this Government have caused.
We simply cannot view all children with SEND as a conglomerate, in the same way that we would not group together numeracy and literacy statistics. Child A, who is non-verbal with autism, might be absent because she needs to be in a sensory tent without disruption. Child B, with ME, might be absent because he is not physically able to get out of bed. Child C, in a wheelchair with muscular dystrophy, might be absent because the staff member who helps them with sanitary needs is off that day. Meanwhile, children D, E and F are almost invisible in the system, because they are on a two-year waiting list for a diagnosis, they are the sibling of a seriously ill child and going without sleep, or they might have told their teacher they just had the flu to avoid questions about their mental health. I know all six of those children, and I suspect many colleagues know children just like them.
We need the Government to recognise key differences in the SEND acronym; to set up a national SEND body; to have comprehensive training for all civil servants, Ministers and council and school staff; to have a mental health practitioner in every school; to ring-fence funding for local authorities to halve the cost of an EHCP for schools; and to reform the Mental Health Act. We need a children not in school register that is sensitive and informed. These policies will help to ensure children are not alienated from their peers or shut out of education. We Liberal Democrats have committed to all those things.
When we really understand the reasons why so many children are absent, we can deliver effective and tailored solutions to level up our stratified society, and give all our children a grade 9 education.
Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Valley) (Con)
As the Minister stated, the motion conflates two very important but distinct issues. “Absent” and “not in school” sound similar, but if the shadow Minister the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) thinks that absence is all about children being home educated, which is what my private Member’s Bill is about, she has failed to grasp the issue. Both are important and both need to be addressed, but the motion fails to do so. My right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford) is introducing a Bill to address school attendance, particularly persistent absence, and I am putting forward a Bill to introduce a register of home-educated children who are not in school, which is much more long term. I would like to address why I am putting my Bill forward.
The only thing on which I agree with the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South is that currently no one—Government, local authorities or schools—can honestly answer the question, how many children are missing from school? Therefore, how can we know that every child is safe and suitably educated? Equally concerning is the number of children who have disappeared from the school roll altogether. While we do not have the data to fully understand where these children are, it is thought that many may have moved into home education.
I want to take this opportunity to make it absolutely clear that I fully believe that parents have the right to choose what education their children receive. That right should be enshrined in law. Parents are in the best place to make informed choices about what their child needs, with many parents providing a high-quality home education for their child. However, that is not the case for every child in home education, with a worrying number being taken off roll for reasons other than their best interest, with the parents not having been able to make a fair and free choice.
Research by the Centre for Social Justice has uncovered a growing number of parents opting for home education because they feel that they have no other option due to their child’s needs not being met in school. That could be the result of difficulties in accessing SEND provision—many autistic children are in this category—a lack of support for mental health, unresolved bullying issues or health concerns following the pandemic. Most troubling is the evidence that shows some parents have felt coerced into home education for reasons other than the child’s best interest, through the scourge that is called off-rolling.
I would like to take a moment here to pay tribute to the many parents, including my niece, who are doing an admirable job of providing their children with a high-quality home education. However, that is simply not the reality for every child. With no comprehensive data collected, we do not know what proportion of children receive a suitable education. England is an international outlier in that respect. A number of organisations, including Ofsted, the Children’s Commissioner and the Centre for Social Justice, have uncovered worrying reports of home-educated pupils being left without access to an appropriate quality of education—one of my constituents wrote to me and said that he had been in that category—and parents are left struggling to cope with the demands of home education. As the numbers of home-educated children increase, so should our drive to ensure that parents are able to exercise their right to choose how best to educate their child, and that every child is supported to achieve the best educational outcomes possible.
Implementing a children not in school register is the natural first step to achieving that. A register would not seek to disrupt a parental right to choose where and when they educate their child. Quite the contrary, as a register can be used to offer resources to families, who are often home educating at great personal cost, should they want such support. The register would allow us to find and support those children and families who have been left on the fringes of the education system, and who may be at risk of harm. It is time to bring these children who are out of sight and out of mind back into the light.
Education is key to the country’s continued prosperity and must remain the focus of any Government. I would like to thank the Government for their interest in my Bill, and the Opposition, who appear to be interested as well, and I look forward to continuing my work with them as it proceeds through both Houses. I ask the Opposition to stop playing party politics with such an important issue, and I hope all sides of the House will back my Bill to introduce a children not in school register, which is so important for ensuring the welfare and education of every single child.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
It is good to follow the hon. Member for Meon Valley (Mrs Drummond), and I commend her efforts in producing a private Member’s Bill on this important subject, but I am a bit confused: if we all agree that it is important, why do the Government not just vote for our motion? My hon. Friend the Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson), the shadow Secretary of State, showed us very neatly exactly who is putting party politics above our kids this afternoon, and it is not Opposition Members. Even better, if the Government are so much in favour of this, why do they not produce legislation in their own time? It is they who dictate the timetable of this place pretty much all the time, so if they are so concerned about our children, it surely should not have been left to the Opposition to put forward this motion. My hon. Friend made that case very well.
Underlying this issue, as I think many would accept, is the fact that the partnership between parents and schools is more or less broken. The team that our kids need to support them—their parents, their wider families and their teachers—are all struggling and finding life very hard. I want to make three brief suggestions for how we can put that partnership right and how we can all do some very simple things to help our children to have a better chance at school, reflecting in particular on my own experience in the Wirral.
First, breakfast clubs are extremely important to giving children the best possible start to the day. They are also very good for parents, especially those who are under pressure to get a decent job so that they can afford the dreadful rises in the cost of living that we have seen recently. If a school has a breakfast club, it means that the parents of the children there can choose a job that starts at 9 am, which can make all the difference in the world to a family. It can encourage mums as well as dads to take a job, and having a second earner in a home is a very good way of tackling poverty. Labour’s policy of putting breakfast clubs into every school is about ensuring not just that our children have an excellent start in every primary school, but that they have a great start to the day, and also about giving their parents that choice of jobs.
My second point is about mental health support inside and outside schools. A couple of Members have already mentioned this. I have witnessed for myself what is happening to our children in the Wirral, particularly when families are affected by disability or special educational needs, in which regard an excellent case was made earlier. The current SEND system is broken, and we do not know nearly enough to support children with those needs. Our problems in the Wirral are being exacerbated by a lack of educational psychologists, but ultimately the way to tackle the problem is to ensure that every child has access to good mental health support. Putting that base level of professionals in every school will help children to receive support earlier in their school journey, and will prevent the exacerbation of those mental health problems. Strengthening the mental health workforce in schools should be our first response to ensure that children’s problems do not become worse, because we know that many mental health problems start in the early teenage years.
Finally, I think that one of the most important things we could do to help rebuild the relationships between families and schools, and ensure that everyone is really giving our kids the best start in life—apart from excellent English and maths teaching, of course—is to provide a broader curriculum. When I see schools in the Wirral with fantastic sports teams, and great, active schools where children have the opportunity to perform on stage, perhaps to tell a story about who they are and what they care about through the performing arts, there is no doubt in my mind that those children are much happier at school. It helps to build the school community.
I am glad that the Minister seems to be agreeing with me from a sedentary position; my only regret is that the past 14 years have done very little to support that vision.
Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con)
I am pleased to make a contribution to this debate. The subject of school absence and levels of school attendance is a particular challenge we are facing at the moment in Cornwall, where rates of school absence are significantly higher than the national average. We have seen around an 8.5% level of absence in recent years, when the national average is about 7.4%. Nationally, about 24% of pupils are persistently absent, but in Cornwall that figure is almost 35%. I think that there are particular reasons why we are seeing that in Cornwall. We have seen a large number of people move to Cornwall in recent times, certainly since the pandemic, and many of them are coming because of the lifestyle Cornwall has to offer and the choices available to them when they move to Cornwall.
I have a number of concerns about how the situation that we are facing is being handled. For many years I have been concerned at what I see as the state encroaching on the role of parents, and that seems to be happening more and more. I was concerned about this long before I came to this House, and it does not seem to be stopping. I believe firmly that the primary responsibility for the welfare and raising of children has to lie with parents, and although the state can support parents and help them in that role, it should not seek to take over that role.
I was pleased to hear the Minister confirm at the Dispatch Box that the Government’s position is that they will always support the right of parents who wish to home educate their children to do so. That is absolutely the right position to take. Many parents choose to home educate their children for very positive reasons, and I have to say that some of the most mature, articulate, intelligent and well-rounded children I have ever met in my life have been home educated. However, many parents now regrettably find themselves having to home educate their children not because that is what they believe is right for their children but because they feel forced into that situation. They cannot find the right school environment and support for their children, who might have particular challenges such as autism or a mental health condition.
One particular factor that I think is driving this issue is the attendance targets. The overbearing, heavy-handed approach that many schools are taking to attendance targets is leaving no flexibility for children who are facing particular challenges, and parents are being threatened with fines for not bringing their children to school. I have even had one parent show me letters from their GP saying that their child was suffering with a mental health challenge and would therefore not be able to attend school regularly, but the school still fined the parent for that child not being in school regularly.
This whole drive to reach the attendance target seems to be the only thing that matters, with no flexibility and no allowance being made for the condition or circumstances that a family or child find themselves in, and this is creating tension and breaking down the relationship between the school and the parents at the very time that those parents need support from the school. I ask the Minister whether we can look at that situation. I know that the Government’s official position is that headteachers have discretion and flexibility, but I am afraid that that message has not got through to Ofsted, which I am told still regularly marks down schools that fail to reach the 95% attendance target even when the headteacher can demonstrate sensible reasons why certain children have not been able to attend school.
The Minister knows from his previous time in the Department that I have never agreed with fining parents when their children miss school. I believe it is a very un-Conservative thing to do. At least let us take away that threat of fining parents when there are legitimate reasons why their child has not been able to attend school. I could give him a long list. My office is now contacted almost every week by parents who are withdrawing their children from school because they want to avoid the fine when their children are not able to attend regularly, even with very good reason.
I have no more time, but will the Minister please look at this situation and how these targets are driving what I believe is counterproductive behaviour by schools? It is not the teachers’ fault, as I think it is coming from policy and from Ofsted.
Ashley Dalton (West Lancashire) (Lab)
I think we all agree on the value of education and how it can enrich children’s lives and give them the best possible start. I am proud that improvements and developments in education have been the legacy of every Labour Government to date. It therefore pains me that I am, yet again, rising to talk about an issue in which this Government have overseen almost a decade and a half of managed decline.
The numbers are terrifying. School absences trebled between 2016 and 2022. If trends continue, 200,000 children will miss half of their school time by 2026. School absences are a threat to the education that is so vital in setting up our children for life and giving them the best possible start, but it is not an isolated issue. Yes, school absences are a cause of increased barriers to opportunity, but they are also a symptom of wider issues.
In rural areas like my constituency, school absences are exacerbated by inadequate public transport and sparse special needs education. As other hon. Members have mentioned, there are a multitude of reasons why children are not in school. It is not just because they are home educated, but because they are affected by parental imprisonment, because they are young carers or because they have disabilities. We need a register that captures the barriers children face, otherwise we have no hope of breaking down those barriers.
I mentioned inadequate public transport. Skelmersdale in my constituency, as anyone who has heard me speak in this Chamber will know, has 40,000 people and no train station. It also has a woefully inadequate bus service, with my constituents reporting issues with reliability and frequency.
We can remove the barriers that make getting to school more difficult for those in rural communities if we focus on what really matters to them. Similarly, children with special educational needs must be able to get the support they need. One of my constituents, whose child has not been in school for almost six months, told me that the school identified by the local authority told them that their child was “unsuitable” for the school. There are no unsuitable children, only underfunded, overstretched schools.
The Government recognised the omissions in their SEND strategy when, in March 2023, they published their SEND and alternative provision improvement plan. However, the plan did not address how rural SEND pupils may risk falling through the net or how failures in provision may be contributing to school absenteeism. Mainstream schools are generally expected to use their delegated funding to meet the needs of students with special educational needs who do not have an education, health and care plan. If a school is unable to meet those needs within its budget, or if a pupil cannot be swiftly assessed and provided with an EHCP, we risk them being absent from the education they need and deserve, through no fault of their own or their parents.
I have been contacted by numerous parents in my constituency who essentially keep their children from school because they are fearful that the school cannot meet their child’s needs and truly believe that it is more harmful for their child to be in school than not. Improving school attendance and reducing absenteeism requires an holistic assessment of the barriers that children face. It requires timely medical care, shorter waiting lists when our children get sick, improvements to public transport and better SEND services to ensure that children’s needs are being met. How many children are not regularly attending school and are, therefore, listed in school absence figures because SEND provision is stretched and mainstream schooling is not meeting their needs? People in rural communities like mine understand that some children are missing school not through their own fault or their own choice but because they simply cannot get there or, if they can, because the school does not meet their needs.
Labour’s plan to address the issue of absences is simple: roll out breakfast clubs, put mental health support into schools, and make sure that SEND provision is joined-up and adequate. Under Labour, children will have a change to the schools system; we will nurture an environment and provide schools they can access and thrive in.
Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
By the time parents come to see me in the surgery about their children not attending school, it is clear that the system has already failed them. Parents come to see me in tears as they talk about their children being refusers and the difficulty they have trying to get them out of the door. Parents have told me how their children become aggressive towards the parent who is trying to take them or hysterical, and how some have threatened self-harm, all because—for whatever reason—they do not wish to attend school.
It can be because of overwhelming anxiety, with children feeling sick in the morning before they go into school, or because of mental ill health. Parents tell me that children are developing rashes related to anxiety because they do not want to go to school. It can be because of bullying, with the added element of cyber-bullying. Parents have told me about a young person being encouraged to take a photograph of themselves to send to their boyfriend at the time, only for it to go viral around the school. That young person then feels ashamed and humiliated, and is unable to go to school—in some cases, they do not even feel able to leave their house. As has been mentioned by Members from across the House, it can be because of an undiagnosed special need and the fact that the family have been waiting for two years for the EHCP that they see as their golden ticket to finally getting the help that their child needs.
What happens when these children are refusing to go and the parents—good parents—are trying, but are unable, to make them? The local authority has limited powers to intervene. As the hon. Member for St Austell and Newquay (Steve Double) mentioned, the school’s answer is sometimes to threaten to fine the parent, who is trying to do the best by their child. The local authority cannot insist on managed moves; it can only try to encourage schools to support them, but it does not have the power to do this. Up and down the country there is a lack of specialist places, and local authorities are unable to open their own special schools; they have to do this through the free school system, so they cannot manage adequately the demand in their area. As many people who work in local authorities tell us, their spending on their high needs block is way beyond the budget they have been given.
What would any of us do if our child was refusing to go to school, becoming hysterical, threatening self-harm and clearly suffering with anxiety, if the school was threatening to fine us and if there was nowhere else for the child to go? I can clearly see why parents say, “This is enough. I’m withdrawing my child from the system.” I have spoken to many parents who have made that decision. What happens next varies, depending on the child and the parents involved. In some cases, it is the best thing that happens to the child, as they regain their self-confidence and self-esteem, and start to mix again. Often, there is a happy ending and they go to the 14-to-16 college, which is a completely different environment from the school, and go on to thrive. Clearly, however, that is not the case for all children. Some drop out of education never to return, and never get the qualifications they need. Unfortunately, some children are then incredibly vulnerable to exploitation and abuse.
So what is the answer? Of course, the answer must always start with the early years and with communication skills. One of the first things I did on becoming a Member of Parliament was to set up the all-party parliamentary group on oracy. Equipping young people with the ability to communicate and express how they feel is crucial, especially for young children who are so upset and frustrated that they do not want to go to school. Giving them the right tools to express themselves can open things up.
The Labour party is also promising health visitors who support children before they go to school. We also need to focus on early years education to support children and prepare them for when they go to school, so that they know what to expect. Crucially—I am so proud that our party is supporting this—we need mental health professionals in every school. Teachers are not mental health professionals. When I was a teacher, I was not a mental health professional. These professionals are needed in school to support children; we cannot put that on the teachers. As has been mentioned, we need a curriculum review, so that we have a curriculum that equips children now and in the future—and, dare I say it, that makes school fun and makes the children want to go.
Finally, breakfast clubs will help and encourage children to attend school. I visited Christopher Pickering Primary School in my constituency last week and heard about the breakfast club it offers for a limited number of pupils. Kids were telling me it was great. They do “Just Dance”—luckily, I was unable to join in—and dodgeball. They play with their friends and they start the day happy. With a Labour Government, that opportunity would be offered to every single child, and that cannot come soon enough.
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
Across the House, I am sure we can all agree that providing our children with a high-quality education is one of the most important things we can do—an education that inspires them to learn, helps them to discover their interests and passions, and sets them up for life. But if children are not in school every day, they cannot access the opportunities they need.
School should not be seen as an optional activity, to be dipped in and out of. However, research by the Centre for Social Justice found that more than one in four parents thought that school is not essential every day—not just one in four adults, but one in four parents. That signifies a real breakdown in the relationship between schools, families and Government, because what example are we setting as a country if such a high proportion of parents are not prioritising getting their children to school every day?
Every child matters and, to those children, every day at school matters, but for years the problem of persistent absence has got worse on this Government’s watch. Last year, 21.2% of children were persistently absent from school—over one in five—which is double the rate from just six years ago. In my local authority of Newcastle upon Tyne, the number of children missing half their lessons rocketed by 282% between 2016 and 2022.
The Secretary of State said that keeping children in school was her “number one priority”, but absence rates have been rocketing for years and we have seen so little action. It only became a priority because the Labour party have consistently spoken about this issue and now, because of the Tories’ inaction, the situation is spiralling out of control, yet they still do not have a long-term plan.
The problem does not exist in isolation. Our children are facing a mental health crisis, record numbers are living in poverty and they are being taught in schools that one teacher recently described to me as “joyless”. What is at stake here is a lost generation missing from Britain’s schools, yet where is the Government’s plan to deal with it?
My hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) spoke powerfully about the impact on families in his area, particularly families with children with special educational needs. My hon. Friend the Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) made a powerful case for why the Government should back Labour’s motion today. My hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire (Ashley Dalton) rightly identified that we need to break down the barriers to opportunity, which means breaking down the barriers to school attendance, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma Hardy). Unlike the Tories, Labour will work in government to break down those barriers to opportunity. We will get our children back into the classroom and we have outlined a plan to address the problem if we are in government.
We recognise that not every child learns in school. We support every parent to make the choice about whether they send their child to school or home educate them, but to ensure no child falls through the gap, we need a proper record of where our children are being educated. That should not be controversial. The Conservatives even proposed a register of children not in school, before shelving it when education was no longer a priority for them.
The hon. Member for Meon Valley (Mrs Drummond) has campaigned on this issue and the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford) spoke powerfully about her campaign on school attendance, but it is shameful that these matters about which Conservative Back Benchers are lobbying their own Government will have to wait for a Labour Government to fix them. We would get on with the job and introduce a register, allowing councils to request information on home education and the ability to visit premises. It is part of our plan to deliver high and rising standards for the next generation.
Mrs Drummond
The hon. Lady makes some great points. The problem with the motion is that it talks about persistent school absences. Persistent school absences relate to children who are already on the school roll, and schools are able to track them. A register of children not in school is purely for home-educated children, and not for those on a school register, which is for children who are persistently absent.
Catherine McKinnell
I thank the hon. Lady for her clarification, but we are not unclear about this. We do not disagree on the need both to tackle persistent absence and to have a register that identifies where children are being educated. That is something that the Government have pledged to do. The hon. Lady should continue to put pressure on the Government who have the power to do something about it right now, or Labour will do it in government.
We will also roll out free breakfast clubs in every primary school. Evidence shows that they improve children’s learning and development, and they have a positive impact on attendance and behaviour. We will fully fund those clubs by ending the non-dom tax breaks for the mega-rich. It is as much about the club as it is about the breakfast, providing children with a softer start to the school day, and with opportunities to play and socialise with their friends, setting them up well to learn throughout the day. When the Minister sums up, perhaps he can support Labour’s call for free breakfast clubs in every primary school, rather than the fraction that the Government’s programme currently reaches.
Labour is also committed to addressing the mental health crisis that our children are facing. It is a key barrier to learning, yet children remain on long CAMHS waiting lists, unable to access the support they need. We would recruit thousands of new staff to bring down those waiting lists and put specialist mental health professionals in schools and community hubs, so that children can get the help they need, solving problems before they get worse. We would tackle this issue head-on, not let it spiral further out of control.
We also need to see accountability in our system. Labour’s plan will involve annual school checks, which cover persistent absence, off-rolling and child safeguarding, so that problems are picked up early on, not left until the next inspection. In Wales, for example, Estyn has strengthened its reporting requirements on attendance, and all schools are now required to make available their attendance policies. We would reset the relationship that has weakened confidence in our inspection system by reforming the one-word headline grade with a report card, identifying areas where schools need to improve and delivering the support to do so through new, regional improvement teams.
Edward Timpson (Eddisbury) (Con)
Does the hon. Lady support making schools responsible for the children they exclude?
Catherine McKinnell
The hon. Gentleman will know that that is part of his Government’s school accountability system. Obviously, we will undertake a full review of our approach to Ofsted. We will also include and address many issues on which this Government are currently failing.
If schools are to offer high-quality education, we must ensure that our children are learning a curriculum that best sets them up for life. The pandemic shone a light on how children’s early speech and language development was affected, and we know that stronger early communication skills boost outcomes and provide better engagement with schools. We would prioritise equipping primary schools with funding to deliver early, evidence-based language interventions. When it comes to the curriculum more broadly, we know that it needs reform. It is far too narrow and it is putting children off learning.
The life satisfaction scores of UK students have fallen through the floor in recent years. The UK now has the second lowest average life satisfaction of 15-year-olds in the OECD. We see that the opportunities for music, art, sport and drama are often squeezed. Opportunities for discussion and debate are few and far between. Our curriculum and assessment review would look at delivering a broad curriculum that prepares children for the future, reflecting the issues and diversity in our society. Assessments would capture the full strength of every child, giving them an excellent foundation in reading, writing and maths without sacrificing the things that make school fun.
To conclude, the difference Labour will bring is clear. Under the Tories, we have had 14 years of decline—of school standards slipping, teachers leaving in droves and education not even getting a seat at the table—whereas Labour will do what we did in 1997: bring education back to the centre of national life, with a focus on putting children first and ensuring that excellence is for everyone. I commend the motion to the House.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (David Johnston)
This Government are committed to giving every child in this country a first-class education and every opportunity to make the most of their abilities. Although there is a small number of children who, for good reasons, need to be educated elsewhere, we want all children to be at school every day. That is key for their life chances. For children who are home educated—a right that parents have, and we do not question that most do a very good job—it is vital that we know that the education they are provided with is suitable and that the children are safe.
As my right hon. Friend the Schools Minister said, the motion conflates two separate things: the issue of persistent absence, which is when pupils miss 10% or more of their lessons, and the topic of home education for those who are not in school. To take persistent absence first, the year the Government came to power, persistent absence was at 16.3%. We got that down to 10.5% in 2015-16, and it averaged 10.9% in the five years prior to the pandemic. It was during the pandemic that it rose significantly again to 22.5%.
The Government are taking wide-ranging action to tackle the matter. We have already established 14 attendance hubs across 800 schools, reaching 400,000 pupils. This term, we are more than doubling the number of hubs so that nearly 2,000 schools will be supported. We are rolling out an attendance mentor pilot that we had in five areas to a further 10 areas, and that programme will reach around 10,000 children. We have deployed 10 expert attendance advisers to support local authorities and school trusts. We have developed a data tool that helps schools to understand the local trends and target their support, and we have strengthened our guidance to local authorities. For the first time, schools are expected to have a member of the senior leadership team responsible for attendance.
Evidence suggests that the strategy is working. There were 380,000 fewer persistently absent pupils in the past academic year, and in the last academic term overall absence was down to 6.8%, from 7.5% in the autumn term the year before. That is all backed by a national communications campaign to remind parents that “moments matter, attendance counts”. The campaign aims to encourage parents to realise that their child should attend school if they have a mild cough or cold and no fever or vomiting, and that mild anxiety can be made worse by a prolonged period of absence. The campaign has been running across social media and the radio. We are grateful to Sir Chris Whitty, the chief medical officer, for his letter reassuring school leaders that children should generally attend school if they have mild respiratory illnesses, because it is good for their wellbeing and a host of other things.
Of course, mental health challenges underpin some of the absence—something raised by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma Hardy), among others. That is why we have been rolling out mental health support teams, which now cover 44% of pupils in schools and colleges and will cover 50% of those pupils by March 2025. We are offering all state schools and colleges a grant to train a senior mental health lead, and we are pleased that 14,400 schools and colleges have already taken that up, covering seven schools in 10 for all state secondary schools.
There is then the related but separate issue of a register for those who are home educated. I should declare that I served on the Education Committee when my right hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) chaired it, and we produced a report that recommended a register for those not in school. That remains a recommendation of the Education Committee. That is the register that was in the Schools Bill referred to in the motion and for which we remain committed to legislating. My hon. Friend the Member for Meon Valley (Mrs Drummond) has been doing great work to champion this issue, and I look forward to the outcome of the Second Reading of her Children Not in School (Registers, Support and Orders) Bill on 15 March.
Various points were raised in this debate and I will try and cover as many as possible. The hon. Members for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), for Somerton and Frome (Sarah Dyke) and for West Lancashire (Ashley Dalton) raised issues about the SEND system. Our SEND and AP improvement plan is designed to address the issues that they raised about children being placed in suitable provision and in a timely manner. We should not have children out of school for prolonged periods because they are unable to get their needs met.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford), who I think is currently at her Westminster Hall debate, has introduced an important Bill, the School Attendance (Duties of Local Authorities and Proprietors of Schools) Bill, and I look forward to seeing its progress through the House. The hon. Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) raised the topic of breakfast clubs, which we are funding in 2,700 schools. Many schools already had a breakfast club, of course, and have had for some time, but we are funding 2,700.
My hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Steve Double) raised the issue of fixed penalty notices. Our guidance is clear that there should be a “support first” approach, but penalties are there to prevent court action from taking place. I should say that 89% of the fixed penalty notices issued are for unauthorised term-time holidays, but I am happy to pick up that discussion with him.
My final point is this: I have watched the Labour party try to reinvent itself as the champion of children being in school, and many Labour Members have raised issues about the pandemic, which is where many of the problems stem from. However, I remember their actions during that pandemic. I remember how long it took them to say that schools were safe. I remember the then Prime Minister standing here every week asking the Leader of the Opposition to say that schools were safe, and him not doing so.
I remember that when one of Labour’s union allies produced a statement saying that teachers should not be teaching a full timetable nor routinely marking work during that period, Labour said nothing to challenge it. When that same union teamed up with other unions to produce a 200-point list of things they wanted to see before schools returned, the Labour party said nothing to challenge them. What was Labour’s big idea during the pandemic? To go against the vaccination advice of the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, which was that we should vaccinate by age, and instead vaccinate teachers—no other profession, just teachers—whatever their age. Why? Because the unions wanted that to happen.
In addition to the motion conflating two separate things, and in addition to this problem being worse in Labour-run Wales, like all problems are, we will not allow the Labour party to reinvent the history of their behaviour under this Leader of the Opposition. They cannot blame the last Leader of the Opposition for that; it was under this Leader of the Opposition, the right hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer). It was this Government who did all they could to get children back to school during the pandemic, and it is this Government who are doing all they can to get children back to school now.
Question put.
Protecting Steel in the UK
(10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
18:59 - The House divided: - Ayes: 223 / Noes: 0 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Roger Gale)
Let me say at the very start of the debate that a lot of hon. Members on both sides of the House wish to take part, so once we have heard from the Front Benchers there will almost certainly have to be a three-minute time limit, if we are to get everybody in.
Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)
I beg to move,
That this House recognises the need to decarbonise steel production; appreciates the pride that local communities have in their historic steelworks; regrets that the Government has pushed through plans for decarbonising steel in the UK which will result in thousands of steelworkers losing their jobs and risk leaving the UK as the first developed country in the world without the capacity to produce primary steel; further regrets that the Government has failed to produce an industrial strategy which could have included a plan for the whole steel sector; believes that primary steel is a sovereign capability and is therefore concerned about the impact that the Government’s plans could have on national security; also believes that steel production can have a bright future in the UK; therefore calls on the Government to work with industry and workers to achieve a transition that secures jobs and primary steelmaking for decades to come; and further calls on the Secretary of State for Business and Trade to report to Parliament by 27 February 2024 with an assessment of the impact on the UK of the loss of primary steel production capabilities.
Labour has secured this debate today because this is a hugely important issue. It is important not just because the future of the Port Talbot steelworks is integral to communities across south Wales—I know that many hon. Friends will be making that case passionately—but because it speaks to a much bigger challenge that we face as a country: how to decarbonise heavy industry in a way that is effective for our climate objectives and fair for our communities.
The Opposition believe that the Government’s push to decarbonise the steelworks at both Port Talbot and Scunthorpe, in a way that guarantees large job losses and has no support from the workforce or unions, risks irrevocably damaging working people’s trust in the opportunities the net zero transition could bring. We believe that it is a calamitous mistake for the UK to become, under the Conservatives, the first major economy in the world without the ability to make our own primary steel.
Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab)
Decades of underinvestment and managed decline have devastated our steel industry, as the news from Port Talbot painfully brings home, but as the Unite the union’s workers’ plan for steel sets out, with the right Government action this crucial industry can still be saved. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government must invest in UK steel, transitioning Britain’s remaining blast furnaces to fully decarbonised steel production, saving thousands of skilled jobs and putting Britain at the heart of clean, green steel production?
Jonathan Reynolds
I intend to make the case today that the UK steel industry could have a strong future, but that requires a much better approach than the one we have seen so far.
Jonathan Reynolds
I am cautious of doing so given the warning about time, but I will give way as I know my right hon. Friend has a significant interest in this.
Mark Tami
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. He will be aware that I have the privilege of representing Shotton steelworks, and he has been there with me to see the high-quality products made in that profitable plant, but in order to carry on it needs to recruit and retain quality employees. What we have seen, however, is a Government who do not care, and if that message gets through to the workforce we are not going to retain those skills.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Roger Gale)
Before the hon. Gentleman continues, may I make a point? I understand how this game is played, and interventions are fine, but please understand from the Chair that if Members intervene they are less likely to get called.
Jonathan Reynolds
It was a pleasure to visit the Shotton steelworks with my right hon. Friend last year, and he will know that it began as the Summers steelworks in Stalybridge in my constituency. He has much expertise, and I commend the argument and points he has put forward.
The decisions the Government have made will have consequences. They will have consequences for our national security and our resilience, and they risk leaving us exposed at a time of significant geopolitical instability.
Several hon. Members rose—
Jonathan Reynolds
I will take an intervention from the Government Benches and one more from the Labour Back Benches, if that is okay.
Sir Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con)
If the hon. Gentleman is so determined that steel is a resource we as a nation should have, why is the Labour party against the west Cumbrian coalmine, which would mean we would not have to bring in coal from Australia to smelt steel in blast furnaces here?
Jonathan Reynolds
We have considerable expertise in that matter, and that grade of coal is no good for the current way steel is produced in the UK, but the right hon. Gentleman is right to raise the point because the Government justified that coalmine on that basis and have now made a series of decisions that, frankly, makes that look even more absurd.
Today I hope to make the case for Labour’s plans for an alternative way forward, an approach that is in no way based on misplaced nostalgia for the past but is instead based on hard-headed realities and an assessment of our national interest.
UK steel should have a bright future. It is not a sunset industry, and it is central to how a modern, low-carbon economy works. I ask the Minister, for whom I have considerable regard, to listen and engage today and to have a serious debate about what is about to happen and be willing to consider the alternative case. Let us please not trade boilerplate rebuttals or pre-scripted lines, but instead ask all colleagues to listen to the rational case being put forward, which is serious, pragmatic and important and one I genuinely believe any Conservative could agree with.
Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab)
Many of my constituents are impacted by this devastating closure, and closing Port Talbot will mean the UK is the only G20 nation unable to make steel. Does my hon. Friend agree that this is an appalling decision?
Jonathan Reynolds
Of course, the decision has to be considered in conjunction with the one in Scunthorpe, and that is why this issue is so important and deserves the attention it is getting today.
I want to say one more thing by way of introduction. We have already heard from several Welsh colleagues, and the decision of the Prime Minister and the Business Secretary to refuse even to have a phone call with the First Minister of Wales about this matter was profoundly wrong. Anyone who is a supporter of the Union wants to see productive, effective relationships across all UK Governments, and the Prime Minister’s behaviour reflects extremely badly on him on this occasion.
The Secretary of State for Wales (David T. C. Davies)
Does the hon. Gentleman realise that I was the chairman of the transition board supporting all those workers who face the loss of their jobs? I offered to speak to the First Minister last week. He has so far been too busy to do so. He has known about this potential problem since September, and only when it appeared all over the papers did he suddenly appear to take an interest and want to make phone calls.
Jonathan Reynolds
I think that is a pathetic response. I mean no discourtesy, but that is pathetic. It is entirely reasonable for the First Minister of Wales to seek a conversation with the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. I will leave that there.
I acknowledge that in the Public Gallery we have many steelworkers who have made the journey here today, including men such as Alan, who has worked at Port Talbot for 40 years, as did his father and both his grandfathers, and Gary, who has worked there for 37 years, and whose son now works in the hot mill. We have men and women from Port Talbot, Scunthorpe and Trostre who started as apprentices. I want to thank them for the contribution that they and their families have made to the UK over many generations. Last year, I went several times to steel sites across Wales, and I met the workforce at Port Talbot when these plans were first announced. They deserve a lot better than what they are being offered right now. At a minimum, they deserve this place taking their case seriously and engaging with these issues with the respect and consideration they require.
Several hon. Members rose—
Jonathan Reynolds
I can give way one more time, to my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham)
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
When I was a young reporter on the Evening Gazette, the steel industry supported tens of thousands of jobs on Teesside alone. The decline started with Thatcher. When the Government abandoned Redcar nine years ago, numbers fell to a few hundred. Steel is a foundation industry. Surely we need primary steelmaking in this country if it has a real future.
Several hon. Members rose—
Jonathan Reynolds
I will take an intervention from the Government Benches, then one from my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds East (Richard Burgon), and then I will take no more.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
Is the hon. Gentleman overlooking the half a billion pounds that the Government will contribute to Port Talbot, or the £1.25 billion in total? When the Business and Trade Committee visited Port Talbot, we saw a plant badly in need of new investment. This Government are bringing forward that investment and securing a future for the steel industry.
Jonathan Reynolds
I am not ignoring that investment; I am making the case that it is a bad deal and that there is a better deal for the resources available that would satisfy far more of our objectives and give a better future to Port Talbot.
Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab)
I grew up, like the shadow Minister, in a region ripped apart by the economic vandalism of Thatcher. Is it not the case that the Tories are repeating the mistakes of the past and claiming there is no alternative, when the reality is that steel jobs can not only be saved, but even created, with a proper plan that takes advantage of the global demand for steel—especially low-carbon, green steel—which is going up fast?
Jonathan Reynolds
I agree with that case. That is why this is such an important issue for Parliament to consider. I always acknowledge that there are parts of it that are difficult. Decarbonising industry is an urgent priority, but in some cases the technology is uncertain or expensive. It is my contention, however, that getting it right is more important than doing it quickly or necessarily at the cheapest cost. To state the obvious, we can decarbonise anything by shutting it down. The cheapest path will likely always involve outsourcing most of our industrial production to other places. If we do that—it is the Government’s plan for Port Talbot—we will spend millions of pounds, and we will see huge job losses and global emissions rise as we effectively offshore our emissions and then claim that is progress. That would be a fundamental political mistake with potentially enormous ramifications for the future of the transition to net zero. We should know that from our own past.
As my hon. Friend mentioned, when I was a child growing up in the north-east in the 1980s, there was a major transition. We saw the end of coalmining and shipbuilding and the old nationalised industries as we knew them then. Many colleagues across the UK have similar personal experiences. Nobody today would propose that the UK should have an economic or energy policy based around large-scale coalmining, but how we manage the transition is fundamental. In the past, as a country, we have got that wrong. Levelling up—supposedly the Government’s flagship policy—is surely a recognition that the scars of those years and the impact of deindustrialisation are still felt in many parts of the UK today, yet the Government risk making exactly the same mistakes all over again.
The decision of this Conservative Government to hand over half a billion pounds of taxpayers’ money to make thousands of people redundant is quite simply a bad deal. It is a bad deal for workers, a bad deal for taxpayers and a bad deal for the future of our industrial sovereign capability. Worse than that, it sends a message that decarbonisation effectively means deindustrialisation. I put it to Conservative colleagues that if net zero becomes a zero-sum game for working people, that risks the very support that we need to achieve the transition. There must be public consent for the transition, and that requires our economy to benefit from better jobs and better opportunities. This is the real politics of getting net zero right: it is not imaginary meat taxes or made-up claims about seven bins but whether the transition is just and fair and delivers something for Britain’s workers. The Government’s plans so far are simply none of those things.
The race to decarbonise is a race for jobs and prosperity, and this could be a hugely significant time for steel. As the Minister knows, I have many criticisms of Government policy, and I believe that we have weak business investment, weak productivity and weak growth as a result. I recognise that the Port Talbot site is in a challenging financial position, but the Government have already recognised that uncompetitive energy prices need tackling. We have procurement rules in place that are seeing significant steel content from the UK in infrastructure projects, and we are getting close to carbon border adjustment mechanisms both here and in the EU, which will be a major development. CBAMs in particular will likely completely change the economics of the UK steel industry. There is no reason to believe that the UK cannot have a vibrant steel sector, so to make this irreversible decision now, when the policy background is clearly improving, seems odd indeed. Better options are on the table; anyone claiming otherwise is simply being disingenuous.
When it comes to Port Talbot, there is a specific alternative proposal available—the multi-union Syndex plan—which is not far off Tata’s original proposals, which were known as Project Kronus. Other proposals have also been put forward. All we ask is that the Government consider the issues involved and do not make any fundamental decisions that are irreversible.
It is widely accepted at Port Talbot that blast furnace No. 5 is at the end of its life and may need to close, but blast furnace No. 4 will not need to be relined until 2032. For the Government to force that furnace to close now, as we await the arrival of new technologies, is an act of economic vandalism. We acknowledge that electric arc furnaces are part of the answer, but we do not want to put all our eggs in one basket, which means being open to all technologies, and especially direct iron reduction, which is one of the most exciting possibilities.
The counter-arguments put forward so far are not robust. I believe that safety issues could be managed in the same way that they are every day at a major steelworks. The claim that 90% of what Port Talbot does could be met with an electric arc furnace does not stand up, as key products in packaging and automotive materials cannot be produced in one. At Scunthorpe, I understand that the lack of sufficient grid connections and the cancellation of the first carbon capture programme back in 2010 have severely limited the options available. Again, I ask the Government not to make irreversible decisions, to be open to all technologies and to recognise the growing importance of and demand for steel.
We are not the only country with these challenges, but everywhere we look, other countries are doing it better. Take the Netherlands, where Tata is in negotiations with the Government on DRI technology; Sweden, with the collaboration between SSAB, Vattenfall and LKAB; Canada, where ArcelorMittal signed an agreement some time ago to build a new green steel plant; or the news just in of a $5 billion investment in a new green steel plant in Saudi Arabia. Everywhere we look, other countries are seeing growth and investment in their steel sector, but we are seeing the opposite. I put the question to Ministers: why is the UK pursuing this path alone?
At Business and Trade oral questions, the Minister has been asked repeatedly—mostly by Government Members—about the assessment the Government have made of becoming the only major economy without primary domestic steel production. Her answers hint that she might get it, but the Government have ploughed on regardless. I ask her again: how can any Government possibly justify making thousands of workers redundant in the name of cutting our carbon footprint only to pay to ship in more carbon-intensive steel from halfway across the world?
It does not have to be this way. We cannot afford to blow this opportunity, repeat the mistakes of the 1980s and leave regional inequality entrenched—we can still see those scars. That is why I always say that, under Labour, decarbonisation will never mean deindustrialisation. I want green steel, and I believe that the workforce are our greatest asset in delivering that. Any real plan for green steel must cover the whole industry. It must be open to all technology that is available, and it should fundamentally be a story of new jobs, new opportunities, new exports and renewed British economic strength, rather than outsourcing our emissions and pretending that that is progress.
Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman is being generous with his time. I came here this evening, as I am sure the workers sitting in the Public Gallery did, to see whether there is a genuine plan on the table from the Opposition. The hon. Gentleman said that there would be, but I have heard nothing specific. I have heard about none of the costs involved. He said that he was not interested in nostalgia, but most of the contributions from Opposition Back Benchers have been exactly that. Where is the credible plan B that people want evidence of?
Jonathan Reynolds
It is literally here in my hands. It is not hard to find. I say to Conservative colleagues that Google is their friend. I have tried to say that the plans are available, but we will be pragmatic and flexible. We are just asking that irreversible decisions are not made that limit the room for manoeuvre in future. On resources, we have earmarked £3 billion of investment from our spending plans to deliver this, all of which is predicated on unlocking much larger sums of private investment. The Government do not disagree with the case for putting money in, but the deal that they are putting forward for that half a billion pounds does not deliver very much at all. What a tragedy it would be in the future to find a Britain that is building homes and infrastructure again, with secure low-carbon energy generation and a new wave of floating offshore wind, but is not making the steel to provide those things.
Labour has a plan to build a better Britain, and we want to build it with steel made in Britain. We will only get one opportunity to get this right, and we must bring workers and steel communities with us. I will finish with what Gary Keogh, a steelworker from Port Talbot told me:
“The question for Tata and the UK Government is this—do we want to be a nation that makes goods, or a nation that imports them from heavily polluting countries? It is not too late for Tata and the UK Government to think again and change course, but time is…running out. If they fail to take a different path now, the people of South Wales will never forgive them, and history won’t forgive them either. There is so much at stake for all of us.”
Well said, Gary.
I am asking the Minister—quite honestly, I am begging her—to consider the arguments and what is really value for money, and not to make decisions that are irreversible and prevent a far better outcome in future. To Britain’s steelworkers, I say that I know how desperate things feel right now and how angry people are, but there are those of us who get it, who understand what this industry is and why it is important. Given the opportunity, we will deliver the future for steel and the right transition that we all know is essential for our future prosperity, security and wellbeing.
The Minister for Industry and Economic Security (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
First, I want to express my sympathies for the employees of Tata Steel during what is undoubtedly a difficult, tumultuous time. I recognise that Tata Steel’s recent announcement means significant uncertainty and upheaval, not just for them but for their families, the people of Port Talbot and other impacted sites.
Port Talbot is built on steel, and the community is proud of its industry and its workforce. After the news from Tata Steel on Friday, the people of Port Talbot are looking to the Government to provide some much-needed stability and as much certainty as possible. My focus, and that of my Secretary of State, my Government and the Secretary of State for Wales, has been to ensure that steelmaking continues at Port Talbot. I want to assure the House that the Government are committed to that, working very closely with Tata Steel—the decision maker—and the Welsh Government to support those affected as much as possible.
The hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) talked about a plan, but there was no plan. He talked about honesty, but the honest truth is that the motion is fundamentally performative politics and a major disappointment. The risk was losing steelmaking at Port Talbot, or helping it to transition to cleaner, greener steel.
Mark Tami
Shotton can use imported steel from India, but that is not a long-term alternative. Importing steel from halfway around the world, rolling it, taking it up to north Wales and then exporting it to Europe does not have a green footprint. Does the Minister accept that? How long will it be before the arc furnace is actually built?
Ms Ghani
Steel is infinitely recyclable and we have a glut of it in the UK. We use shy of 3 million tonnes and we export around 8 million tonnes, so we have it within the system and we can recycle it. It has the same chemical compound and it can be used infinitely, so that is the assurance in the supply chain.
As hon. Members will know, Tata Steel will shortly begin a statutory consultation with employees and trade unions as it embarks on a fundamental transformation project to replace its two blast furnaces with state-of-the-art electric arc furnaces. We cannot stop the clock. The technology is here and customers are asking for cleaner, greener steel.
Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con)
Is not the truth of the matter—I admired, by the way, the shadow Secretary of State’s rhetoric—that Port Talbot is a victim of climate militancy and extremism? Net zero zealots do not understand that unless we manufacture in this country, we will extend supply chains and our carbon footprint will grow. Is that not the truth of the matter?
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
The Minister mentioned the potential consultation. Tata has a legal obligation to consult the recognised trade unions in a meaningful way to try to avoid redundancies. Will she ensure that those consultations take into consideration the plans that Unite the union, the GMB and Community have on the table to try to save the UK steel industry?
Ms Ghani
Absolutely. I spoke to the hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock), who represents Port Talbot, over the weekend, and I reconfirmed that I will do everything in my power to hold Tata to account as it goes through the transition and to ensure that the consultation is as wide and deep as it can be.
Mark Pawsey
Is it not the case that Tata has been losing £1 million a day at this plant, which is old? The Select Committee visited the plant and we saw that it needed replacement. In the absence of discussions with the Government, the plant would have closed some months ago.
Ms Ghani
My hon. Friend is right. Tata Steel is actually losing £1.5 million a day. A statement put out by Tata Steel made it very clear that our investment of £500 million, which is unprecedented for the steel sector, would enable it to safeguard steel production in the UK in the long term. I know that this is a difficult time, but without our investment we would have risked losing steelmaking at Port Talbot.
Ms Ghani
I will make a bit of progress and then I will take interventions.
Tata’s proposed plans have the potential to turn around its economic fortunes—it is losing £1.5 million a day—and to deal with emissions, but it is also about adopting new technology and meeting customers’ needs. I know that there are huge concerns, because that means job losses. The concerns hon. Members have expressed for the people of Port Talbot are our concerns too, and they are shared by Members right across the House. They have been represented by the Government in our negotiations with the company.
As I said, we are holding Tata to account, ensuring that the transition is managed properly so that every employee receives the support they deserve. That includes £100 million of funding for a dedicated transition board, chaired by the Secretary of State for Wales and including members of the Welsh Government, to support affected employees and to provide a plan to protect and grow the local economy in the next decade. Tata also announced on Friday that on top of that £100 million, it would provide an additional £130-million comprehensive support package for affected employees.
Andrew Percy
I thank my hon. Friend. She has been a friend to those of us on these Benches who have been concerned about our local steel jobs and she has been a champion within Government for our steel industry, so I thank her on behalf of our steelworkers for her support. May I urge her to be cautious in listening to the Opposition, who more than halved the number of people who worked in the industry last time they were in power?
It is clear that customers will want green steel in the future, but does my hon. Friend agree with those of us in Scunthorpe who want to retain a capability of some sort when it comes to virgin steel?
Ms Ghani
The technology has moved on. Although 90% of everything that we need can be made from recycled steel, there is a gap, and Scunthorpe is obviously filling that gap at the moment.
My hon. Friend also made an important point about the Opposition, who are talking about potential job losses. In 1997, 70,000 people worked in the steel industry; by 2010, that number had fallen to 30,600—a fall of 40,000 jobs or 56%. The Labour leader between 2010 and 2015 did not mention the steel industry once in Parliament. Our investment at Port Talbot is the largest that has been made for a substantial period, and although the situation is challenging, without that support there was a massive risk that Tata would have left Port Talbot.
Liam Byrne
I just want to pin something down, because that was an important intervention. On 8 November the Minister said, in reply to a question from the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Holly Mumby-Croft), that she thought it was vital to our economic security for these islands to retain their virgin steel-making capability. I put that position to the Secretary of State this morning, and she refused to confirm it. Will the Minister tell the House today whether it is her position that this country needs the capability to make virgin steel—yes or no?
Ms Ghani
I did follow the debate in the Select Committee, and I think the Secretary of State said that these decisions are commercial but that we will do everything that we can, and that our fundamental priority is to ensure that steelmaking continues in the UK.
Tata Steel’s decision has not been taken lightly. This consultation comes against the backdrop of a decade of losses, which were ignored by the Labour party when it was in power. Indeed, Tata’s managing director confirmed over the weekend that, as I mentioned earlier, the Port Talbot plant has been bleeding £1.5 million a day. Its decision also comes with a growing awareness that the UK steel industry has to modernise, because that is what customers want and the technology now exists. In those circumstances, businesses are compelled to make difficult decisions and tough changes. In fact, without the opportunity to install a modern electric arc furnace, the future of the plant would have been under serious threat.
Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab)
The Minister and several of her colleagues have mentioned the losses at Port Talbot. Let me remind the House that Tata Steel paid dividends amounting to £1.4 billion to shareholders between 2019 and 2023, and that the group has reserves of £1.6 billion. Would not a sensible solution be to look at what the unions are proposing, and in particular at Unite the union’s proposal in its transition plan to retain blast furnace 4 during the transition and build a 3-megaton arc furnace to allow Port Talbot to take advantage of the dramatic increase in demand that we anticipate for green steel?
Ms Ghani
I believe that Tata has been sharing its business plans with the unions. There is anxiety about the multi-union plan because it does not deal with the basic economics of continuing to make steel at Port Talbot. Of course all of us here want to ensure that steelmaking continues in the UK, and this is the model that Tata has put forward to ensure that it does. Electric arc furnaces will be on line in a few years’ time, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we are using steel that is already in the UK system and can be recycled.
Trudy Harrison (Copeland) (Con)
There is much talk about blast furnaces. May I remind the House that a blast furnace simply will not function without coking coal? West Cumbria Mining’s proposal for Woodhouse colliery would enable the extraction of the highest-quality grade A coking coal, which is absolutely fit for purpose for blast furnaces. Labour seems to be arguing that we should not offshore our carbon emissions, but that is exactly why we should be supporting WCM’s proposal—so that we can extract that vital material, coking coal, in the cleanest, greenest way possible.
Ms Ghani
My hon. Friend is a staunch champion of her constituency and she highlights the lack of any sort of sensible plans from the Opposition. They do not want stuff coming in or going out. They will not even support the transition, and they would go harder and faster as well.
Closing the Port Talbot plant would cause immeasurable damage to the town and would be harmful for the UK as a whole, risking all 8,000 jobs that Tata Steel provides across the UK, not to mention the 12,500 jobs in the steel supply chain. That is why the Government are investing £500 million of a total of £1.25 billion towards securing the future of Port Talbot’s steel, and an industry that is inextricably linked to the community’s history and identity. That investment is a huge step forward, fortifying UK steel production at a time when traditional blast-furnace steelmaking has stopped being viable.
We have heard loud and clear the calls from the unions to keep one blast furnace open for several months during the transition. Tata held discussions with the UK Steel committee and its advisers on this very issue. In response to those concerns, Tata Steel has revised its proposal and continues to operate Port Talbot’s hot strip mill throughout the transition period and beyond. However, its position remains that continued blast-furnace production is neither feasible nor affordable, and the risk is that we would lose steelmaking at Port Talbot. An electric arc furnace provides us with greater resilience and the ability to absorb shocks in the global supply chain by reducing our dependency on raw material imports. Quite simply, UK steel will be ready for whatever the future holds with state-of-the-art modern equipment.
Just as crucially, the transformation is pivotal to the Government’s ambition to position the UK at the forefront of the growing global economy. Alongside the UK’s proposal for the Celtic freeport and the land at Port Talbot, which Tata expects to release for transfer or sale following the transition from blast furnaces, the investment would unlock thousands of new jobs in south Wales and the wider UK economy. I should also remind the House that the Tata Group continues to make significant investments in the UK’s industries of the future, including through its plans to open a £4 billion battery gigafactory in Somerset, creating 4,000 direct jobs. That will be a game changer for this country that will position us to thrive in the decades ahead.
Jonathan Reynolds
I very much recognise the case that the Minister makes for Tata’s investment in the UK, but will she just be clear with the House on whether the subsidy package for Port Talbot that we are talking about is in any way linked to the subsidy package and the decision to build the gigafactory in Somerset?
Ms Ghani
That is just another performative politics intervention—[Interruption.] No, those are completely separate things. We are talking about the future of the steel sector in the UK and in Port Talbot. The discussions have been going on for years. They are discussions that did not take place when the Opposition were in power. They left it alone and the technology has moved on, but what we have been able to do, even though it is difficult, is ensure that steelmaking continues in the UK by providing it with unprecedented levels of funding. There was no plan presented when the hon. Member spoke at the Dispatch Box. We have been able to ensure that steelmaking will continue at Port Talbot.
Understandably, Members might ask why the Government are not working harder to maintain these particular blast furnaces but, as the hon. Gentleman said, they are at the end of their lives and the cost does not work any more, and nor do they meet the needs of customers. I say this again: without the support, there would have been a complete risk of Tata Steel not continuing to making steel in the UK. We know that the 20th-century way of producing steel is no longer fit for purpose for the UK in the 21st century. The UK’s blast furnaces, such as those at Port Talbot, are reaching the end of their operational lives, and a transition from blast furnaces to electric furnaces will also increase our supply chain resilience, making the UK less reliant on imports of raw materials for steelmaking.
Sir Robert Goodwill
My hon. Friend is making valid points. We have no domestic iron ore mining or, at the moment, domestic coalmining to feed blast furnaces. What we do have, as I observed when I was shipping Minister, is massive heaps of scrap steel in every single port. This is currently being exported to China to come back again as steel. Surely the best way to keep the plant open is to use the scrap steel that is currently on our doorstep?
Ms Ghani
That is the honest conversation that we have to have in this House and with the public. We have ample scrap steel in the UK economy. We use shy of 3 million tonnes of scrap steel, and we export 8 million tonnes. We could use that scrap steel, which can be recycled infinitely, to provide us with supply chain resilience while reducing our carbon footprint.
The UK exports more scrap steel, as my right hon. Friend mentioned, than any other country apart from the United States. We have a plentiful and reliable supply of scrap metal in the UK for electric arc furnace production, and this is made into new steel products for British and other manufacturers. The scrap sourced here in the UK reduces our need to import steel from China and other countries.
We are backing UK-made steel and, crucially, we are backing it in the right way, by investing hundreds of millions of pounds to help the industry to thrive in increasingly challenging global markets. We cannot stop the clock. The technology and the customer demand is already here. Our commitment is clear from our emergency covid support to Celsa Steel and our unprecedented package of support for the steelworks at Port Talbot. We continue to work closely with the industry to secure a sustainable and competitive future for the sector and its workers.
Our commitment is clear from initiatives such as the British industry supercharger, which will reduce electricity costs for the steel industry and other energy-intensive industries, bringing them closer in line with the charges in other major economies. That is complemented by the £730 million in energy costs relief that we have given to the steel sector since 2013.
However, investment is only part of the story. The Government have also implemented a robust trade remedies framework to protect British businesses, British jobs and British goods from unfair trading practices and unmanageable surges in imports. Equally, we have not shied away from advocating for the UK steel industry abroad by resolving market access constraints and working with our partners in the US and the EU to boost access for UK steel exports. I am proud that my Department is involved in that work.
As well as our efforts to protect our steel industry on the international stage, the Government recognise that contracts for major public projects are a vital source of income for our home-grown steel producers. In the financial year 2021-22, those contracts were worth more than £600 million, which is one reason why, last April, we published an updated steel procurement policy note that emphasised the importance of early engagement among producers, suppliers and buyers, so that British steel production has a fair shot at job-creating, growth-spurring projects here in the UK.
Clearly, Tata’s decision, and any decision like it, has both national and local consequences. As we have seen over the years, when dealing with huge amounts of investment, global supply chains and national infrastructure it is easy to lose sight of the communities, families and individuals who are impacted. I believe the deal is in the long-term best interests of all parties. However, I recognise that many of those who are impacted in the immediate term will feel differently. That is precisely why we established a transition board, which was announced in September. It is up and running, ahead of any formal process taking place, so that we can be in the best position to support the local people, businesses and communities impacted by the transition.
I know that Members want to have an honest discussion about steelmaking in the UK. Without such record-breaking investment, there may not have been any steelmaking at Port Talbot.
Stephen Crabb
The Minister is making an important point about having an honest conversation, part of which is about recognising that almost from the day that Tata bought the Corus assets it has been looking for the taxpayer to subsidise the plant to keep it operational. From refurbishing and relining the blast furnaces to direct subsidies from the Welsh and UK Governments, as well as strongarming us into offloading the pension scheme, Tata has needed Government help almost from day one to keep the plant operational. In having that honest conversation, will the Minister please keep in mind that the community in Port Talbot will need massive investment to get it through this change?
Ms Ghani
Absolutely, and that is why we have the transition board. We have made money available to ensure that we help local communities. The other change is that customers now want cleaner, greener steel, so there is a market for using electric arc furnaces.
I assure the House that this Government will be at the side of the people of Port Talbot and other impacted sites over the months and years ahead, and we will continue to strive to secure a better future for them and for UK steel.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. I ask everybody to resume their seats. This is a time-limited debate and we do not have much time because of the pressure of other business today. That is why there is a three-minute limit. The Front Benchers will get eight minutes each to respond—I cannot give any less because it is only fair that there is a proper Opposition response and a Government response to that. I ask Members to be mindful when making interventions, please, and to make them short. I call Marion Fellows.
Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I almost want to repeat the speech that I have given on steel for the past eight and a half years, but I will resist that temptation. The biggest problem we have is that the Tory Government do not do steel. They may be coming up with a plan now, but since I came here in 2015 the all-party group on steel and metal related industries has tried to get movement on an industrial strategy and get steel at the heart of what we do, and it has been ignored.
When Tata sold the Dalzell mill in Motherwell to the Scottish Government for £1, two taskforces were set up in 2015: the UK Government one, which went absolutely nowhere, and the Scottish steel taskforce, which saved Dalzell. Steel is really important—it is a foundation industry—and steelmakers are, as I can testify, a different type of people. The unions have done great work in coming together and moving the industry forward. I agree with the Labour motion, but I have some doubts as to what a Labour Government would do, as there have been so many tosses and turns, and U-turns, in what Labour has been saying.
Let me return to the issue of Port Talbot. We in Motherwell and Wishaw, and the surrounding areas, know only too well the cost of the closure of a large steel plant—we had huge redundancies. I am talking about the economic and social costs. We know that manufacturing jobs are only the start of the impact of the jobs losses and that they will be felt right across the Welsh economy.
Under the multi-union plan, it was hoped that Tata Steel could transition Port Talbot towards greener steelmaking over a longer timeframe. Tata Steel intends to replace existing manufacturing processes with an electric arc furnace which, as we know, makes steel from scrap and requires a much smaller workforce. I find it hard to believe that Tata will invest £750 million to finance the restructuring, backed by £500 million from the UK Government, yet all these jobs are going. It is almost as if the Government are paying Tata to make people redundant.
A statement by the GMB and Community, which drafted the multi-union plan, noted:
“It is an absolute disgrace that Tata Steel, and the UK Government, appear intent on pursuing the cheapest instead of the best plan for our industry, our steelworkers and our country.”
I agree on that. We in the Scottish National party recognise the need to reduce our emissions and reach net zero targets, but we are equally clear that it is vital that the individuals and communities most impacted by the green transition must be at the heart of the decisions made by Governments. A just transition must have at its heart fairness and transparency for the workers affected. In the case of Tata Steel, it is clear that the impact of the closures on the workers has been an afterthought.
Diane Coyle, the economist, says:
“The UK’s industrial policy…has been characterised by frequent policy reversals and announcements, driven by political cycles”,
and there is an enduring inability to effectively co-ordinate the
“multiple…public bodies, departments and levels of government…responsible for delivery.”
Those of us with steel industries in our constituencies can attest to that. There has not been a proper industrial plan in all the time that I have been here.
Last week, our First Minister highlighted how independence offers an alternative to a lack of direction and ambition, with an industrial policy. That is what an independent Scotland will have: an industrial policy, which has been lacking here since I first came to this place in 2015. The fact that the replacement for the blast furnaces in Port Talbot will not be operational until 2027 at the earliest raises concerns from both a national security and an environmental perspective.
It is completely meaningless, as we have already heard, to close the furnaces in Port Talbot in an attempt to lower emissions if we are then going to be reliant on equally energy-intensive steel imports from other countries until at least 2027, and if the UK Government do not take measures to ensure that the UK is on par with the EU when it comes to investing in green technologies. As has already been said, we will be importing from India and China, two of the most polluting countries on the planet.
The UK Government will also be the only G20 country that does not produce its own virgin steel. That clearly poses concerns from a national security perspective. Unite the union recently summed up this ludicrous situation, noting:
“The government needs to invest in British industry in order to defend workers and communities as well as our industrial base and our national security. Instead, they are giving Tata hundreds of millions of pounds to fund their plan to cut jobs, cut capacity and give more business to their plants in other countries, like India and the Netherlands. How is that acceptable?”
The shocking decision made by Tata in Port Talbot may not have a direct consequence on Dalzell steelworks in Motherwell, in my constituency. However, the decisions being made at British Steel in Scunthorpe and Port Talbot put the future of steelmaking in the UK at risk. I am happy to pledge my support to the alternative plan put to Tata with the backing of industry experts Syndex and both Community and GMB trade unions.
The market need for UK-produced steel has increased as projects within the UK are asking for UK content. Dalzell steelworks markets itself as steel rolled in the UK, produced from steel made in Scunthorpe. If British Steel goes the same way as Tata, we will lose the only remaining UK steelmaker that can supply steel suitable for plate, and that is just madness. When Tata closed Dalzell and Clydebridge, the UK lost its ability to roll plate for submarines and other industrial purposes, such as wind turbines.
This Tory Government do not understand manufacturing. The all-party parliamentary group for steel and metal-related industries has been pushing for years and years. I notice the Minister mentioned the reduction in electricity costs, but how long did it take this Government to come forward with that plan? We have been telling them for years that we could not be competitive and that energy costs would have an effect on British steelmaking.
Many people are still waiting to speak. In Motherwell and Wishaw our hearts go out to folk in steel who are losing their jobs. We know how it feels and we know how long it takes to build a community back up again. We in the SNP support the motion.
Holly Mumby-Croft (Scunthorpe) (Con)
The news from Tata Steel is extremely concerning, and it leaves Scunthorpe as the last place in the whole of the UK that is able to make virgin steel. It is incredible to me that I am here again making the argument to retain the UK’s virgin steelmaking capability. There have been challenges from across the House on those views, so I will go into detail about some of those challenges.
Some people seem to think that we can make whatever we need in an electric arc furnace. It is true that the range of products is increasing all the time and will continue to expand, but those products are dependent on scrap and all scrap is not equal. We may have the correct tonnage of scrap in this country, but no one has yet convinced me that it is the correct quality of scrap. That is a really important point that we need to recognise.
People have said that we do not export iron ore from this country. That is incorrect; we do export iron ore as a country. People say that we do not have coking coal capability in this country. That is incorrect, because there is a perfectly good metallurgical coal mine in Cumbria waiting to be used. Some will make the argument about reducing the carbon footprint of steel products, using a purely electric arc model, to which I would again point out that many products melted in an electric arc furnace require an input of virgin steel in the mix. People on the works have told me—I listen to them because they know their stuff—that some of those products that they want to make in an EAF will need 30% virgin steel in the mix.
Andrew Percy
Is it not then clear that, given what my hon. Friend has said, it is vital that the Government negotiations with British Steel retain that virgin steel capability?
Holly Mumby-Croft
My hon. Friend, who knows a great deal about steel, is absolutely right. We need to remember that if we are not making that virgin steel here in the UK, it will come from someone else’s blast furnaces, probably from the other side of the world. We will have no control over the emissions or how that steel is produced. We will have no control over the welfare of the people who make it. The steel will then be put on a ship—a ship with a diesel engine, not a sail—and driven over here to be thrown into our electric arc furnaces to make that mix.
Sir John Hayes
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The more that we make in this country—the more food we grow; the more products we produce—the more essential our manufacturing base becomes, and not just for our economic resilience and wellbeing, but for our move to this wonderful carbon-neutral future, which is so beloved of so many.
Holly Mumby-Croft
My right hon. Friend is correct. Put simply, unless we are going to stop using virgin steel in this country, we should have the ability to make it ourselves, so that we can take responsibility for those emissions and for the production methods, and for the working conditions of those who make the products.
Last week, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence remarked that we are entering a pre-war world. A strong—or at least “in existence”—steelmaking industry is a core part of our nation’s defence capability. We may choose to buy the steel that we need for our defence from other countries—whether or not I agree with that—but resilience is not only about what we choose to do in future; it is also about what we may need to do, or what we may need to have the capability to do should the need arise.
On 18 September, I asked my hon. Friend the Minister for Industry and Economic Security whether she agreed that
“for national security reasons alone, we must ensure that we retain the capability to make virgin steel in this country”.
As I said in the urgent question that I later secured, that was confirmed to me by the Secretary of State the very same day, and I took contemporaneous notes of that conversation. On 18 September, my hon. Friend the Minister commented that I was correct on the importance of virgin steel, stating:
“obviously, we need a place for virgin steel, and that is in her constituency.”—[Official Report, 18 September 2023; Vol. 737, c. 1125.]
I have no problem with building electric arc furnaces—it is a good idea—but I passionately believe that the UK should retain, at least in the medium term, some blast furnace capability alongside that. After the sad news in Port Talbot, that has to be in Scunthorpe.
On 6 October, British Steel set out its plans, which it says are subject to appropriate support from the Government. They are the content of the negotiations that my hon. Friend is working so hard on. They talk about installing two electric arc furnaces, one in Scunthorpe and one in Teesside, and they propose maintaining current operations until a transition to electric arc steelmaking.
I want to be crystal clear: I expect the company to keep to its word on this. If we are to give British Steel hundreds of millions of pounds of public money, we need to ensure that it retains those blast furnaces until the transition. In short, that must be written into the deal. I do not want the sad events happening in Port Talbot to happen to my people in Scunthorpe. I do not want to see blast furnaces switched off early and steel being brought in from abroad and rolled in our mills. I want those blast furnaces to be on for as long as possible, maintaining jobs and keeping options open, so that we can explore alternative technologies, just as other countries are doing.
Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab)
The Port Talbot steelworks is the beating heart of our community. Generation after generation have worked in that steelworks. Port Talbot is the steelworks, and the steelworks is Port Talbot. Every time I go into that steelworks, though, I do not see something to be sentimental about; I see a hotbed of innovation. I see a workforce who are deeply committed to change and ready to embrace change. This is not about some kind of request for charity or hand-outs; this is about asking for a level playing field. This is about saying that we make the best steel that money can buy.
But for 14 long years we have been competing with one hand tied behind our backs. For 14 years we have been forced to pay twice as much for our energy as our French and German competitors. For 14 years we have seen Government contracts going to foreign steel companies. For 14 years we have seen our Government completely fail to support our steel industry in anything like the way that our competitors are doing.
Let me be absolutely clear: when we look at the deal that is now on the table, we see that it does not work for jobs, it does not work for decarbonisation, and it does not work for our national security. On jobs, 2,800 jobs are set to go, with £500 million of taxpayers’ money to pay for that privilege. On decarbonisation, the deal is based on importing millions of tons of steel from India, where steel production is 30% to 40% more carbon intensive. I am not sure if anyone has noticed, but India is 5,000 miles away, so the carbon footprint will be huge. We are literally exporting jobs from Wales to India, and importing carbon from India to Wales.
I urge Tata Steel to look again at the multi-union plan and to take the bridge, not the cliff edge. Its deal will send our workforce—our proud communities—over that cliff edge. That is not something we can accept. We have to recognise that the trade unions have put together a compelling plan; a plan that would keep one of the blast furnaces going while the transition to an electric arc furnace takes place. That is the right way—the balanced and sustainable way—of doing this. Our country needs its steel. Let’s value it. Let’s stand up and fight for it.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
There is no question but that this is an extremely worrying time for families in Port Talbot and for the community at large. I know the community extremely well, and my father was a welder at the basic oxygen steelmaking plant in the steelworks for more than 30 years. Port Talbot is a community where everyone knows someone who is related to the steelworks in some way. The scale of the impact that this will have on the community should not be underestimated. It is not just the jobs themselves. There will be the contractual jobs and the associated roles with those contractual jobs, so there is a significant multiplier that follows on.
Of course, this is not the first time that we have been in this position or that the steelworks have been under threat. I can remember tens of thousands of people working there when I was growing up in the 1970s. The reality is that in 2016 we were in a similar position, when Tata planned to close the plant but, in opposition to what the Government are now claiming, the UK Government proactively worked with Tata to encourage a sale and, in the interim, the price of steel rose, which has given us a much longer lifespan for the site.
I want to point out that the commitment that Tata has shown is significant and needs to be recognised, because it has lost millions of pounds over time. In the close of 2018, as Secretary of State for Wales, I went to Mumbai to meet the chairman and chief executive of Tata, and to express my concern that the price of steel at that time was falling, and I wanted to know what their plans were. That is the proactivity with which the Government maintained an interest over time in seeking to support the industry and to support steel.
Sir John Hayes
I take my right hon. Friend’s point about commerciality, but the truth is that we can and should protect those core industries that are at the heart of our manufacturing capacity. If we open ourselves up to cheap foreign imports with huge environmental costs, we are bound to end in a situation of the kind he describes. I thank him and, in particular, my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Holly Mumby-Croft) for their work, but it is for the Government to prioritise British jobs and British manufacturers.
Alun Cairns
My right hon. Friend makes an extremely important point, and I strongly agree with him. That is the proactivity that the Government have sought to pursue. I should correct the record, by the way: it was in November 2019 that I went to Mumbai to meet Tata.
However, the reality is that every time a Member of this House, on either side of the Chamber, has called for us to go further and faster and to be ahead of the curve in the green transition, another nail has been put in the coffin of heavy industry such as Tata in Port Talbot. That is the reality of the position. When we have passed climate change legislation here we have heard many Opposition Members—those who are now seeking to defend the jobs—saying that the Government are not doing enough on our green transition.
The £500 million is a significant sum, and we should not play it down. We must also remember that this is a devolved responsibility. Pre-devolution, that money would have been coming out of the Welsh block. We all know that since 2016 the Welsh Government have done nothing to reinvest in the plant after we managed to save it from closure, so I find it churlish when the Minister in the Welsh Government says he needs hundreds of millions. Those are the people calling for further devolution and further responsibility, but ultimately there is no accountability for the decisions, because investment in industry is a devolved function.
However, thanks to the Union and thanks to the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, the UK Government can invest in the steelworks in Wales. That is the same Act that the Opposition voted against and to which the Welsh Assembly would not even approve a legislative consent motion in order for it to pass.
In the limited time I have, I also want to point out this is a two-blast furnace site; having one blast furnace operational makes it even more inefficient, and it will lose more money. My hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Holly Mumby-Croft) highlighted a really important point about an arc furnace, and I have not heard the automotive sector say that it is content with that. Finally, I hope we will have a development corporation in order to save the economy in the area.
Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)
I add my voice to the chorus asking the Minister to rethink the strategy and this deal comprehensively. At the heart of this debate is a simple truth: what the Government have offered us is a half-measure, and it is a half-measure that now threatens job security, economic security and climate security. Frankly, that is a price not worth paying.
The threat to job security has been well laid out by hon. Members this afternoon. It is not just 2,800 jobs at the steelworks itself; three times as many jobs will be lost because of the economic shock to the community. Here we have a situation where £500 million of taxpayers’ money is being forked out and up to 12,000 people are going to be thrown out of work.
The second point, which we must not let the Minister elude this afternoon, is that there has clearly been a change of Government policy on whether this country needs its own sovereign capability to make virgin steel. The hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Holly Mumby-Croft) spoke brilliantly and eloquently about precisely why we need to keep that capability in this country, and she was right to say that, in response to her urgent question in November last year, the Minister gave the House the very clear impression that she would defend a policy of His Majesty’s Government that we will retain sovereign capability for virgin steelmaking in this country.
However, when I asked the Secretary of State not once, but three times today whether it was the policy of His Majesty’s Government to keep that capability in this country, she declined to answer on all three occasions. She said that that was not a decision for Government to make, but a decision for industry—and, in her words, we might as well be trying to encourage people to keep typewriters. I do not think that is an appropriate response to a fundamental question of economic security.
The third point, of course, is on climate security, as my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) laid out very clearly. Tata has been very clear that it will honour its contract by importing steel from India. We know that that is 40% more carbon-intensive than steel made in this country and that other imports may now come in from China, where about 70% of the power is from dirty coal. That is bad for job security, it is bad for economic security and it is bad for climate security.
At the very least, we could have expected the Government to lay out a better plan that dealt with questions such as how we will guarantee the scrap supply, given that we now export 77% of our scrap and do not have a strategy to ensure that it is kept here in the event that the future is indeed in electric arc furnaces. We have not had a strategy on how to keep direct reduced iron technology here, and Tata is proposing to build that capability in Holland. So £500 million goes out the door, job security goes down, technology goes to Holland and dirty steel comes in. That is a bad deal and it needs rethinking.
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
That was a brilliant contribution from the Chair of the Business and Trade Committee.
This afternoon, steelworkers from Port Talbot, Llanwern and beyond are up in the Public Gallery. They have come here today to ask the Government to step up after last week’s announcement from Tata. On their behalf, we implore Ministers to pursue, before it is too late, all avenues to secure a longer, fairer transition that supports our steel industry and jobs. We need a meaningful consultation with the trade unions and full consideration of the alternative options that they have proposed, because we want the best for steel, not the cheapest, which is what we have before us.
Nick Smith
My hon. Friend is a great champion for steelmaking in Llanwern. Does she agree that the negative impact of the Government’s plans for steel in south Wales will be massive? Will electric arc furnaces be suitable for the Zodiac line at Llanwern?
Jessica Morden
Indeed, last week’s announcement was devastating for Port Talbot, for the people from Newport who travel to work there, and for communities across wider south Wales. Over 18 months, 2,800 Port Talbot workers have been affected, and Tata expects that 300 further roles could be impacted at Llanwern in Newport East in around three years’ time. As my hon. Friend says, that would affect the Zodiac line, which produces world-class automotive steel and was the best processing line in the world when it was built—it remains one of the best. As the unions have highlighted, Zodiac will, in the short term, be reliant on imports. Big questions remain about the quality of steel produced in electric arc furnaces. These are high-value products, and it is a precarious position for Llanwern to be in.
As has often been repeated in recent days, no matter how the Government dress it up, they are giving Tata £500 million to make 3,000 people redundant. In so doing, they are ending our ability to make virgin steel—the only major economy in the world to do so—and that is shameful. It leaves us reliant on imports at a time when demand for steel, which we will desperately need for our green infrastructure, is only growing, and at greater cost. The imported steel will come over here, as the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Holly Mumby-Croft) said, on diesel-fuelled vessels, shipped thousands of miles from countries with lower environmental standards.
It does not have to be so. As others have said, an alternative plan has been proposed by the steel unions. We pay tribute to them for the fight that they put up on behalf of their members. The Syndex plan is credible and based on a phased transition over a decade. Officials at Tata have acknowledged to unions that the union plan was serious and deliverable, but would not commit to the extra funding. The Government must step up, as other countries are doing—in fact, there cannot be a developed country in the world that approaches the matter in a worse way than this one.
Labour will step up. A general election cannot come soon enough for our steel industry. We have long pledged a £3 billion fund to decarbonise UK steel production. This Government’s plan is not a serious one; it is yet another sticking plaster from a Government without a proper industrial strategy. We have had 12 steel Ministers since 2010, and six in the last four years alone.
Let me address the attacks made this week by the Secretary of State for Wales at a time of awful news. This deal was done without Welsh Government or trade union support. Welsh Ministers have repeatedly contacted UK Business Ministers. The First Minister tried to get a phone call with the Prime Minister on Friday but was not allowed one. The Welsh Government have used all the levers that they have. We must not allow the UK Government to make irreversible decisions. Not only is steel part of Wales’s history, but it is vital to our greener future.
Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab)
I declare an interest as a member of Unite, and totally support the union’s plan to move forward. I congratulate my party’s Front-Bench team on securing the debate. This debate should not be about political sides—it should not be about Members taking the Government’s side against the Opposition because we secured the debate. This debate is about national security, national industry and national prosperity. I congratulate the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Holly Mumby-Croft), who stood aside from the politics and looked at the real issue.
There are also issues here about the blast furnace technology. I am one of the very few Members in this place who served as an apprentice and worked in a foundry, so I understand the issues we are talking about. As has already been said by the hon. Member for Scunthorpe and other Members, virgin steel is hugely important, because we want to increase our defence manufacturing. We have the AUKUS deal, under which we want to build submarines in conjunction with Australia and the United States. That will have a huge impact, and if we do not have blast furnaces, we will not have the capability to do that.
When we recycle steel that has already been produced—this has been said before, but I will repeat it—it contains significant impurities because of the uses it has had, and cannot be turned into virgin steel. That is what we have to come back to when we talk about how we produce that steel. If we do not do so, we will not be able to meet our defence, engineering and manufacturing commitments, which is not what the United Kingdom wants. That manufacturing is an industry that we want to take forward.
As far as I am concerned, this is a grubby deal by Tata. All it wanted to do was get hold of our steel industry, hijack it, get rid of our workers from the line, and bring steel back from that company’s highly polluting Indian plants. This has not been said today, but as somebody who has worked in the industry, I want to be clear that our steel industry and our steelworkers do not think that our people should be sacrificed at the altar of the so-called green technology that Tata is pushing—I think the intention is something quite different. We need to realise as a nation that this is our security, this is our prosperity, and this is what we need to do.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. If people could shave about half a minute off their speeches, we will be able to get everybody in. Otherwise, we will not.
Dame Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
It is both tragic and shocking that we are faced with the potential closure of the last blast furnace in Port Talbot before greener technologies for producing primary steel are developed and operational, and even before the proposed electric arc furnace is up and running. This Conservative UK Government must bear their share of the responsibility for this appalling situation. The Government boast about the grubby little deal they made with Tata in September, spending half a billion pounds to lose 2,800 jobs in Port Talbot and leave the UK as the only country in the G20 without its own steelmaking capacity, at the mercy of world markets with the risk of price hiking, not to mention the national security risk of losing our own primary steelmaking capacity.
Instead, the Government should have been negotiating a proper deal such as the multi-union plan to ensure a just transition. They should have been protecting jobs, keeping the blast furnace going until other production means are fully up and running, and recognising that the electric arc furnace can only be part of the solution. Yes, let us recycle more steel in the UK, but we must recognise that that is not suitable for all our needs. We should also be developing green technologies such as hydrogen and direct reduction of iron to do the primary production of steel, as Labour has proposed, committing £3 billion—not half a billion—to work with the industry to make that just transition a reality.
The tin plate industry is synonymous with Llanelli. It is a central part of our industrial history, and today’s Tata plant in Trostre makes a range of different materials that go on to be used in things like food cans and aerosols. Currently, we receive our steel from Port Talbot, just some 20 miles down the railway track, which makes good economic and environmental sense. Tata tells us that when it closes the blast furnace, we will be importing steel. That imported steel will be made in blast furnaces abroad, so there will be no saving in carbon emissions—quite the opposite. Processes abroad will be much dirtier, and then of course there are the costs and emissions from transporting the steel to Trostre. The challenge will be sourcing an appropriate quality of steel to satisfy Trostre’s needs, and as Trostre makes a number of products and serves a number of different customers, that means steel of the right quality to satisfy all those needs.
We will be very much more vulnerable to logistical difficulties and price fluctuations if we have to import steel. If there is a shortage of supply, foreign producers may well prioritise their home customers.
As for the recycled steel produced in the electric arc furnace, when it eventually comes into production, there is still a lot of work to be done to assess its suitability for the different products that Trostre produces and its acceptability to our customers. It may be that some products can use electric arc furnace steel, but that will depend on the quality of the feedstock that is put in, and there is a strong case for having two smaller electric arc furnaces to provide those different qualities. Then there is the challenge of sourcing the feedstock, and not just sourcing it, but sorting it and trialling it. All this takes time.
In the meantime, we need Tata to keep the blast furnace going. The electric arc furnace should be only part of the solution, the other part being the development of green primary steel-making. I pay tribute to the trade unions, and we now need Tata to work with the trade unions—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. Could Members shave time off their speeches, otherwise not everybody will get in?
Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Mr Deputy Speaker, you may be wondering why on earth the Member for the northernmost mainland constituency in the UK, very far away from Port Talbot, is taking part in this debate. However, a bit like the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr Mahmood), I got my fingers dirty working in an oil fabrication yard in a place called Nigg. Some of the mightiest structures in the North sea were built there, and I am proud to have worked there when I did. Those structures, which are still working today, were made out of the best of British steel. The steel did not come from anywhere else; they were made out of British steel.
I thank the Government for the decision to allow the Cromarty firth in my constituency to become a green freeport. One of the great dreams we have where I live is that with the skills we still have locally—the welders, the fabricators and the riggers who are still of working age—we could start to fabricate floating offshore wind structures in the yard once again. That is our dream. At its height when I worked in that yard, 5,000 people worked in it, and we dream of seeing the flash of the welder’s torch and hearing the clang of steel once again. However, to do that we are going to need the best of British steel—not rubbishy stuff, but the best—that will stand up to the mighty storms of the North sea. What I am saying is that, yes, I hear the impassioned pleas about making virgin steel in the UK, but I am talking about further down the line where we can use it and where we want to use it desperately badly.
I am going to keep this short, but we have fallen a long way back. One of the shattering statistics is that, while we were still in the EU—towards our last days there—the UK had fallen to being the eighth in the whole of the EU in steel production. We were actually behind Belgium. This is the country of Isambard Kingdom Brunel, the country that built the Forth rail bridge, the country of steel, and it was steel that made this country great, so I support the motion with great passion. Believe you me, it has my full support.
Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
Steel is a strategically important industry for Wales and for the entire UK. It is vital in supporting the green transition, from energy generation to electric cars. This is not just about a fair transition, but about having the security of supply that is essential to any transition at all. As we enter the new era of Great British Nuclear and small modular reactors in places such as Trawsfynydd, there is no sense and no rational strategy in the Government committing their successors to buying thousands of tonnes of new steel—and from where? From China? We do not even know what assessment the Government have made. Does the UK need security of supply from being able to produce virgin steel in future—yes or no—and what is the Government’s role in that respect?
Plaid Cymru has called for action to ensure that ownership of the Welsh steel industry is returned to Welsh public control. This would involve nationalisation, and then recapitalisation through green bonds, with a view to mutualising and creating a Welsh steel co-operative. We could save the banks in 2008; why can we not save steel now? Look at Germany, where the Government spent €2.6 billion in state aid to steel producers for decarbonisation projects only last year. That is the scale of intervention that we need. We must also learn from countries such as Spain, Canada and Sweden, which are already investing in their capacity to produce primary steel through green hydrogen furnaces. There are lessons here for Wales. There are suggestions that a closed-loop cycle could be created in south Wales, whereby floating offshore wind is not only used for electricity but to make green hydrogen for local heavy industry, including steel production.
If we had better control over the Crown Estate, we could tie these procurement requirements into those contracts. We could put local procurement as a priority. Where is the vision? Where is the vision in saying that only central Government can manage this, given the current state of the nation in the United Kingdom? These are the sorts of exciting opportunities we should be grasping now in Wales, yet we are being let down once again by a Westminster Government who are intent on stripping Welsh assets while leaving the Senedd to bear the costs of communities and individual lives thrown on the scrap heap.
Yes, the Labour party is also promising a transition fund for the steel industry, but how can we believe it will ever be implemented, when it continues to scale back on its £28 billion green investment pledge? Solutions from Westminster are a dead end; only with control over our own resources, such as through a Welsh steel co-operative and the devolution of the Crown Estate, can Wales embark on its own journey towards a greener and fairer future.
To close, Mr Speaker—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
I am afraid that time is up; I do apologise.
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
First, I declare my interests as a member of the GMB and the all-party parliamentary group for steel and metal related industries.
I have to say how utterly frustrating and disappointing it is to be here as a former shadow steel Minister, hearing the same arguments that all of us on this side and some other hon. Members across the House have been making on these issues for decade that the Government simply have not listened to. They have been asleep at the wheel: there has been no industrial strategy and no vision for the future of steel, and there has been a revolving door of Ministers in and out of Government. I am deeply frustrated that, after all those arguments we have made in good faith, we have come to this point.
This is totally the wrong approach for the proud workers I was privileged to meet outside Parliament today and who are with us in the Gallery. It is totally the wrong approach for the economy of south Wales. It is not just about the workers and the jobs directly at Tata; it is also about the related industries: the electricians, engineers, rail workers, hauliers and all who work in that interconnected economy that is so crucial to the backbone of south Wales—the cafés, too—and all the families who rely on those highly paid jobs.
Workers who are willing to embrace change, as my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) said, now face being let down by this Government. It is totally the wrong approach. When it comes to carbon emissions, we have heard how it will lead to imports of lower quality steel and higher carbon steel—steel that is coming in with higher carbon emissions on transport, as has been set out so clearly in the debate. And it is totally the wrong approach for our national security. The hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Holly Mumby-Croft) was absolutely right to raise concerns about our defence industry and to talk about the need for speciality steels.
I know what an electric arc furnace can produce—I have one in my constituency and it is run by an excellent company that does excellent work providing steel to our critical national infrastructure—but it cannot produce all the steels we need for our economy. At a time of geopolitical risk, at a time when our supply chains are under threat, at a time when we want to invest in new green technologies and at a time when we face threats from major countries around the world, to be abandoning our capacity, our national security and our foundational industries is utterly irresponsible.
I praise my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon for what he has been doing to stand up for his workers and my hon. Friends the Members for Newport West (Ruth Jones) and for Newport East (Jessica Morden) and others. I want to praise my constituency colleague the Welsh Minister for the Economy, Vaughan Gething, and indeed the First Minister. I have to say this to the Ministers on the Treasury Bench: I like them personally, but it is simply not good enough for the Prime Minister not to pick up the phone to the First Minister. He picked up the phone to me about issues when he was Chancellor, so why is he not doing that now and calling the First Minister? Where is the Secretary of State? She has not been speaking to the Welsh Economy Minister, Vaughan Gething. She needs to put aside partisan differences, get around the table and work with us to find solutions on this, and she is not doing it. And where is the Chancellor? Fundamentally he has been involved in this deal, which appears to be delivering very little; where is he on this? They need to get with the programme.
We need to look at the multi-union led plan. We need to listen to what our unions are saying, listen to what the workers are saying, not make irreversible decisions, and make sure there is a future for the steel industry in this country.
Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP)
First, I express my concerns on behalf of the 2,800 workers at Port Talbot who will lose their jobs and the many others in that community and the surrounding area who will feel the knock-on ramifications of this decision. It is a situation that all too many communities in Scotland, and indeed across the UK, remember from the toxic legacy of the Government’s industrial policies in the 1980s, when the rapid enforced decline of heavy industry across too many places was progressed with. That toxic legacy gives us a prime example, if we needed one, of how not to go about an industrial transition. With the rejection of the multi-union plan, it seems that the present-day Government have learned no lesson in that regard.
Make no mistake: this decision is economically, environmentally and strategically inept. It means that the UK takes a step closer to being the only state in the G20 without the capacity to make its own virgin steel. That is a risk to security, but it also means that the UK is effectively outsourcing the emissions associated with the production of that virgin steel, while unforgivably offshoring the jobs. That is not a just transition; it is just plain daft.
The green transition that we know we need to make should be a main driver of economic growth in the decades ahead, and we can see how Governments in the EU and in the US who get to grips with that challenge can drive forward that investment. In contrast, in Port Talbot we see a £500-million UK Government investment leading to the direct loss of 2,800 jobs. That is a transition of a sort, I suppose, but it does not come anywhere close to meeting the needs of the communities there, the economy or the planet.
Finally, I say as gently as I can to those on the Labour Front Bench that if decarbonisation is not to mean deindustrialisation, they should please have a word with their leader and make sure that he does not water down any further his £28 billion pledge, because communities that depend on our getting the transition right, such as mine, deserve and expect no less.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
To resume her seat no later than 6.44 pm, I call Ruth Jones.
Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab)
It is good to participate in this debate, but it is not good to recognise the thousands of job losses coming down the track and the devastating effect that will have on our local communities. We cannot underestimate the anxiety and anguish caused by this callous announcement by Tata, and the lack of thought by the UK Government in just going along with it. It is not just about the direct job losses, but about the thousands of other workers and families involved in the supply chain of the steelworks in south Wales.
This announcement is a massive blow for everyone across Wales and the UK. It is all the more frustrating, because we know that this decision to shed 2,800 jobs is completely avoidable. We know that the steel industry has to decarbonise, and we must achieve our goal of net zero, but we do not have to do it overnight. We can transition to green steel. Decarbonisation cannot mean deindustrialisation. The route to green steel involves a mix of all the available technologies, not just electric arc furnaces. We will move towards our goal of net zero, but in partnership and co-operation, leaving no one behind. That is the fair way; that is Labour’s way.
In contrast, this Government are so deaf to the problem that the Prime Minister would not even answer the phone to the First Minister Mark Drakeford when he rang to discuss the proposed job losses. That tells us volumes about how ready to listen this Government are. As we are talking about Government responses, will the Minister meet the unions? I believe that the last meeting was way back in May 2023. It would be good to have a commitment from the Minister.
There is also a knock-on effect, because while we are mainly concerned with jobs in Port Talbot today, there will be an impact on its sister site Llanwern in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden). Many people in Newport West work in Llanwern, and let us not forget the other steel companies, such as Island Steel and Sims Metal recycling, which are also suffering because of a lack of coherence and strategy from the current UK Government. It is unbelievable.
Like all the speakers on the Labour Benches, I pay tribute to the union representatives here in the Public Gallery today, and I thank them for their diligent and proactive work. I call on the UK Government to engage with them and work with Tata to ensure that the UK retains its steel production capabilities and that our automotive, defence, manufacturing, construction and renewables industries can procure and use our own British steel.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
To start the wind-ups, I call the Opposition spokesperson.
Sarah Jones (Croydon Central) (Lab)
This has been a powerful debate, reflecting the huge strength of feeling in this place, but also the huge knowledge and ambition for our steel industry. I was disappointed that the Minister came to this place and said that this debate was performative, less than a week after Tata Steel announced nearly 3,000 job losses. I think we all would have expected better from her.
Like many others, this afternoon I met steelworkers and union officials not only from Port Talbot, but from all the other steel sectors and steel sites across the country. They have come because they know what this announcement means for them and their future. These actions will have consequences beyond last week’s announcement. The steelworkers here today, like many of us, are baffled by the Government’s approach. They know that steel is a foundation industry. They know how crucial it is to our economy. They know that the world is uncertain—for goodness’ sake, the Prime Minister was here only this afternoon talking about strikes on Houthis in Yemen—and that having our own supply of primary steel is crucial to our security. Our genuine question is: why are the Government so content to be spending half a billion pounds on a scheme that leads to thousands of job losses?
Stephen Kinnock
On jobs, my hon. Friend will have seen that every steel industry across the G20 and around the planet is going through massive change, but the only place where there is a threat of thousands of job losses is the United Kingdom. Why does she think that might be?
Sarah Jones
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. He made a brilliant speech earlier and has been a great defender of his constituents. The lack of any plan from the Government over the last 14 years is at the heart of the problems we see today.
As the shadow Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds), said in his opening speech, we also risk something much wider: that net zero becomes a zero-sum game for working people and we lose the public consent that we need for the transition. There is no getting away from the facts. The Government have pushed a plan that uses hundreds of millions of pounds to make thousands of people redundant. If Scunthorpe ends up going the same way—the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Holly Mumby-Croft) made a powerful speech to the contrary—we will be unable to produce primary steel in the UK.
In the Port Talbot plan, the two blast furnaces will shut this year, with a cliff edge for jobs. For at least three years, steel will be completely imported from India and the Netherlands to feed Trostre and Llanwern in south Wales, but there is no guarantee that once the electric arc furnace is built, those jobs will stay. We know that there are huge questions about scrap steel and whether it will produce the steel we need. Many Members, including the Chair of the Business and Trade Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Liam Byrne), asked questions to which the Government have so far provided no answers.
Alun Cairns
I did not have an opportunity to develop this in my speech, but would the hon. Lady and the Labour party support a development corporation to diversify the economy so that it is not so dependent on one industry and one company?
Sarah Jones
The Labour party would support an industrial strategy, which would have myriad plans that would look exactly at some of these issues. Our national wealth fund would fund some of the really important future industries that we need, crowd-in private sector investment at a much greater scale and, hopefully, lead to the manufacturing industry growing and not the managed decline we have seen under this Government.
My hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) said that the plan is exporting jobs and importing carbon, and he is exactly right. My dad was from Llanelli, once the tinplate capital of the world. My grandad worked at the tinplate factory that was then called Richard Thomas and Baldwins, and his brother worked at the Salter saucepan works. They would have stood in Stradey Park singing “Sosban Fach,” I am sure bursting with pride.
Britain’s steel industry has seen us through momentous periods in Britain’s national story—the white heat of the industrial revolution; the planes, ships and tanks that saw us through the second world war; and the buildings dotting our skyline across this modern Britain—but if we get nostalgic for the past, we do not look to the future. The world is changing, it is less safe and less secure, and steel is changing. New technologies are transforming how we make and use steel, and it will be as crucial to our future as it has been to our past.
We cannot make solar power without steel. We cannot make electric vehicles without steel. We cannot make wind turbines without steel. We will not reach the Paris climate agreement targets without steel. Steel is used for 3D printing and robotic automation, and everything from the tools that our doctors use to save our lives to the rocket ships that reach into space needs steel. Our pens are made of steel, and Big Ben ticks because of steel. Anyone who does not know that it is magic should read Ed Conway’s book “Material World”. Steel makes the machines, the tools and the factories that make everything possible. It will forge our future, not just our past. The debate is not about nostalgia: it is about looking head. Labour Members know that steel can have a bright future in Britain.
The Government’s last-minute chaotic deal is a masterclass in how not to run the transition. What they offered was never a serious plan for the long-term of our steel industry; it was yet another sticking plaster from a Government lurching from crisis to crisis, unable or unwilling to take a long-term view.
There are other ways forward. Labour has a cast-iron commitment to support our steel industry. We have earmarked up to £3 billion for investment in green steel alongside industry, working with steel communities to ensure that the transition comes with jobs. There are other ways forward that can help us, not least hydrogen. While the Conservatives scramble around for last-minute deals, Labour will make long-term investments. That is the central difference in our approach.
We must think about manufacturing differently. I have lost track of the number of times businesses have said to me, “We would invest in renewables, but the Government make it too hard.” Our manufacturers say, “We want to decarbonise, but we are living hand to mouth because our energy bills are so much higher than in other countries, and Government won’t help us.” This steel debacle speaks to a much wider issue. We do not just need a steel industry: we need glass, ceramics, cement, compost, critical minerals, batteries, composites and cheap energy. We need supply chains that work, an upgraded national grid, planning reform and a job plan to create jobs across every part of this country—a transition from the old to a much cheaper renewable future. In short, we need an industrial strategy. We need a Government who believe in working in partnership with industry, not just telling them to “F off”, and we need a plan that looks to the future of our own country and does not just rely on cheap imports from China.
We are asking the Government to think again, to look at the multi-union plan again and to think about how to defend primary steel capacity in our country. We know that steelworkers are watching this debate, and they must feel wretched. I ask Government Members in all sincerity: are they concerned about our defence capabilities if we lose the capacity to make primary steel? Do they really think the Government’s plan is money well spent? Should decarbonisation really be about cutting jobs? Is manufacturing really a Victorian pursuit best left to the Chinese, as a former Tory Prime Minister is reported as saying?
Or, as the great country that we are, can we harness the skills and talents of our people and create a vibrant manufacturing sector here in the UK? Tonight, can we send a message to the steelworkers here that we want to protect the future of British steelmaking, and that we will not sit by and let managed decline be the hallmark of this great British industry? I commend the motion to the House.
The Secretary of State for Wales (David T. C. Davies)
I thank the hon. Lady and all those who took part in the debate. I say very clearly that I completely understand how devastating the news is. I understand the devastation that people will feel in Port Talbot—the whole community, but especially those people who face the loss of their jobs and those in the wider supply chain. There will be a wider impact—no one is denying that or running away from that.
Let me set out the situation that the Government found themselves in. Throughout the debate, Members have tried to suggest that this is a Government decision. It is not a Government decision. It is not the Government who decided to close—
David T. C. Davies
Let me make a little progress, as I only have about six minutes and I think Members will want me to put things on the record. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr Mahmood) waved around the Syndex plan; as a member of Unite, surely he will be aware that it rejected that plan.
Let me go back to the situation we found ourselves in. It was not a decision of the Government to shut down the blast furnace, but one taken by Tata in the light of the losses it was making.
Stephen Kinnock
I thank the Secretary of State for giving way. Yes, it is a Tata decision, but £500 million of British taxpayers’ money is going into it. Will he set out what red lines the Government put down around that £500 million? Were there any red lines around jobs?
David T. C. Davies
It came down to this: the Government had to find a solution that was acceptable to Tata and that would save the maximum number of jobs. The Government are not paying £500 million to throw 3,000 people out of work—[Interruption.] No, the Government are paying £500 million to save 5,000 jobs, because they will be saved, as well as around 12,500 jobs in the supply chain.
David T. C. Davies
I will give way to the hon. Gentleman in a moment, because he knows more about this than many who have spoken. The reality is that Tata told us that it was looking to pull out completely from the United Kingdom. If the loss of 3,000 jobs is devastating—it certainly is—how much more devastating would 5,000 be, and 12,500 jobs in the supply chain? It was a simple choice for the Government—not a good one—between seeing 3,000 people lose their jobs or around 17,500 people lose their jobs, and possibly even more. That is why the Government committed to pay £500 million towards an arc furnace. Let me make one other thing clear: the Government will not pay a penny to Tata until that arc furnace is built.
Stephen Kinnock
I thank the Secretary of State for giving way again; he is being generous. I think there are many reasons why Tata would not be considering full closure, not least the multibillion cost of closing down the Port Talbot steelworks. The remediation costs would be absolutely astronomical, so that was never on the table. The choice was between the bad deal that the Government have done with Tata and the compelling multi-union deal. Can we please just have the facts on the table, which are that this is not about closing the plant versus the Government’s deal, but about the multi-union deal being the right way forward?
David T. C. Davies
I understand the hon. Gentleman’s position and he is right to stand up for his workers. This is the reality of the situation: that plan has not persuaded Tata. Tata has not said that it is credible. Tata has said to me that it could not go along with that plan, because although one of the blast furnaces—blast furnace No. 4—has a number of years to run, it would still come to the end of the life of the coke plant and the sintering plant, so if Tata went ahead with that proposal, it would keep open one blast furnace, which is still losing a lot of money, and then have to start importing all the coke and all the sinter that it would need for it.
There is then the technical problem in that Tata says it would be very difficult indeed to build an arc furnace next to a working blast furnace containing molten steel. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman can shake his head, but that is what it is saying to us. That is what it has said to us as a Government and that is why we find ourselves in the difficult, unpleasant and awful situation of having to choose between 3,000 people losing their jobs and 17,500 people losing their jobs. That is why we came to the decision we did.
David T. C. Davies
May I just continue, because I have only three minutes left?
I want to say something about those 3,000 people. I worked in a steel plant myself. I worked in Llanwern when I left school, so I am directly involved in this and I feel it. I say to the workers that I have met the trade unions on a number of occasions. In fact, I will cancel what I am supposed to be doing next and I will go out there in the Public Gallery and meet the workers, with the hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) and anyone from the unions, to explain the Government’s commitment.
There is £100 million on top of the £500 million, which will be there for the community in Port Talbot. It will be there to develop infrastructure to get other companies in. But the most important thing, and the hon. Gentleman knows that I have said this in the transition board meetings, is to ensure that anyone and everyone who loses their job has the absolute maximum opportunity to retrain and do anything that they want to do as far as retraining is concerned—to help to set people up in businesses, to get them licences, to get them any training they want. There is a massive commitment from the UK Government to that and we will not turn our backs on the people of Port Talbot.
Alun Cairns
My right hon. Friend is making an extremely powerful and factual case, rather than some of the wilder claims that have been made. Bearing in mind that this is a devolved responsibility, is he aware of any capital sums that the Welsh Government are making available to support the community?
David T. C. Davies
The Welsh Government have made it clear that they are not able at the moment to put in the sort of money that would be needed to come up with any kind of different plan. There is no other plan on the table, which is why we find ourselves in the situation we are in.
I will turn very quickly to a couple of points that were made. First, on primary or virgin steel, obviously all the iron ore and coal used in the plant is being imported. We are, therefore, at this moment, dependent on other countries for our virgin steel capacity. The advantage of an arc furnace, although this is not the situation that I want to be in, is that we would not be dependent on foreign countries for the supply of steel because, as the Minister for Industry and Economic Security, my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Ms Ghani) pointed out, we currently export 8 million tonnes.
David T. C. Davies
I think I had better keep going because I have one minute left.
On defence, none of the steel being produced in Port Talbot is going into the defence industry. The defence industry uses steel from Sheffield Forgemasters, which is created by an electric arc furnace. There is an issue, historically, with the quality of the steel that comes out of an arc furnace, but all the experts have told me that it is getting better and better all the time. Tata expects an electric arc furnace to be able to supply about 90% of the products that it currently supplies through the blast furnace.
Exciting technology is being developed that uses hydrogen instead of coal or coke to reduce iron, but there is only one plant doing it, at Luleå in Sweden. It is completely experimental at the moment. There is a podcast on the BBC in which the chief executive being interviewed makes it clear that it is 25% more expensive than the steel produced in a convention blast furnace. So good luck trying to persuade Tata that it should get rid of producing steel in the usual fashion and replace it with something that is 25% more expensive. The reality is—
David T. C. Davies
I know my time is up, but the plan that Labour Members have waved around has not been put to Tata by the Labour party.
Sir Alan Campbell
claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).
Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.
Question agreed to.
Main Question accordingly put.
Business without Debate
Delegated legislation
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
With the leave of the House, I will put motions 3 to 5 together.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
Sanctions
That the Iran (Sanctions) Regulations 2023 (SI, 2023, No. 1314), dated 11 December 2023, a copy of which was laid before this House on 13 December 2023, be approved.
That the Russia (Sanctions) (EU Exit) (Amendment) (No. 5) Regulations 2023 (SI, 2023, No. 1367), dated 12 December 2023, a copy of which was laid before this House on 14 December 2023, be approved.
That the Russia (Sanctions) (EU Exit) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2023 (SI, 2023, No. 1364), dated 12 December 2023, a copy of which was laid before this House on 14 December 2023, be approved.—(Joy Morrissey.)
Question agreed to.
Petitions
Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP)
At a time of soaring energy costs and a cost of living crisis, there is no doubt that high standing charges are a major burden for many, and particularly for low energy users, who have less ability to reduce their bills by reducing energy consumption.
Following is the full text of the petition:
[The petition of residents of the constituency of Linlithgow and East Falkirk,
Declares that in a time of soaring energy costs and a crisis in the cost of living, the high standing charges imposed by utility companies represent a significant burden on household finances; further that Scottish households bear some of the highest electricity standing charges in the UK, with households in Linlithgow and East Falkirk currently paying 62.1p per day on direct debit, and 69.2p per day on standard credit; and notes that the result of high standing charges is that lower energy users can save proportionally less money by reducing usage, thus disempowering these households and offering no incentive to reduce energy usage at a time when energy efficiency and environmental sustainability is so vital.
The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urge the Government to consider abolishing standing charges, to alleviate the financial pressure upon households in the cost of living crisis, and to encourage responsible energy use for the good of our planet.
And the petitioners remain, etc.]
[P002894]
Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD)
Network Rail’s closure of Botley Road is having a significant and detrimental impact on local businesses, with some owners experiencing an up to 60% drop in income. My constituents are extremely concerned for these cherished small businesses, with 437 people signing this petition.
Following is the full text of the petition:
[The petition of residents of the constituency of Oxford West and Abingdon,
Declares that the closure of Botley Road due to ongoing works at Oxford Rail Station is having a significant and detrimental effect on local businesses; notes that local business owners report they are experiencing up to 60% drop in income; further notes the vital contribution of small businesses to the UK economy.
The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urge the Government to take immediate action to ensure local businesses are able to access a Business Support Fund during the extended closure of Botley Road.
And the petitioners remain, etc.]
[P002902]
Revised National Planning Framework
(10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Dame Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con)
I am grateful for having secured this debate, and even more grateful that the Minister for Housing, Planning and Building Safety is here to respond. In December, the Government announced significant changes to their house building planning policy, giving new powers and freedoms to local planning authorities, such as mine in Basingstoke and Deane, through changes to the national planning policy framework to vary their planned house building numbers away from the standard method, among other things. The Secretary of State rightfully attached to these new powers and freedoms a single, clear and unambiguous condition:
“With these changes secure, there is now an added responsibility on local government to deliver.”
That responsibility on local planning authorities to deliver at their own plans is what I will focus on today. For too many years, some planning authorities have relied on Government for their house building figures, choosing the path of least resistance and doing what the standard formula told them, in the absence of having asked council officials to collect evidence, or perhaps for fear of being challenged if they actually challenged the standard method and had to allocate more people to their planning departments. However, those days are over. Just a month after these significant changes, many local authorities will still be digesting what they mean for them. I hope that this debate and the Minister’s response will help to explain the breadth of these new freedoms to challenge and the new responsibilities that local authorities have.
My local authority, Basingstoke and Deane, published papers to approve its updated local plan, with new planned levels of house building, for public consultation on exactly the same day as the Government’s new policy changes. I am sure that behind the scenes officials and elected councillors will be agreeing how their proposals need to change in the light of the Government’s new policies, which so readily could deal with the concerns about high levels of house building expressed by thousands of my constituents. At this point, let me pay particular tribute to the residents’ groups in my constituency, particularly Clean Air Green Environment, or CAGE; and Save Our Lodden Valley Environment, or SOLVE. They have worked so hard to make the case to cut house building in our borough over many years. These new Government policies are a powerful tool to help achieve that aim.
The Secretary of State’s statement makes it clear that the extensive changes that have been made to the NPPF must be taken into account by the planning inspectors. Of course, all the changes apply to all of the country, but certain changes are more important to certain local authorities. For Basingstoke, which, as the Minister knows, has built homes for more than 150,000 people since 1960, the most relevant change is the one to the standard assessment model—the formula used to determine house building rates. It is now an advisory starting point, not a mandatory end point.
In places such as Basingstoke, where we have a unique set of factors, the standard method has generated house building numbers in the past that are both inappropriate and unachievable. As a result of the changes that the Minister introduced, the local authority is now able to consider varying more widely from that standard assessment, having looked at “exceptional circumstances”, to ensure that house building in our community better reflects the nuance of our individual situation.
I have been campaigning since I was first elected—I think you can remember that, Mr Deputy Speaker—for house building that reflects local need, not a formula. I did so when I called for “No more tower blocks and gridlock” in the 2005 election; in my first Westminster Hall debate; and when working with local environmental groups and residents’ groups. It is what we advocated for at the last planning inspector’s review of our current local plan. It has also been the subject of a recent petition presented to the local authority, which is supported by thousands of residents. We want to see house building levels cut to reflect our local need, not a standard method formulated in Whitehall.
Sarah Dyke (Somerton and Frome) (LD)
Local authorities are best placed to ensure that the right homes are built in the right places, so does the right hon. Lady agree that we need to protect the voice of local communities in the planning process?
Dame Maria Miller
It is as if the hon. Lady has read what I am about to say—she is completely right. Cutting house building in Basingstoke will better reflect the situation we have in our community, and that is what my residents want to see, not those numbers continuing to be set from Whitehall.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
The right hon. Lady has outlined the way house building impacts her constituency, but does she agree that while planning policy must protect and enhance our environment, it must also focus on the needs of an area? Planners must give material consideration and weighted concern to economic development and job creation.
Dame Maria Miller
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Each of those considerations is different in our individual constituencies, so rather than taking a sledgehammer and telling each of our local authorities how many houses to build, they should reflect the nuance that the hon. Gentleman mentions.
As the Secretary of State set out when he announced the changes to the national planning policy framework, it is for local authorities and their councillors to use the new powers. In Basingstoke’s case, that means Basingstoke and Deane Borough Council and our councillors. They have to take responsibility for using the new NPPF. They have the new powers to use and they understand the pressures that have been put on services, especially the NHS, by exceptionally high volumes of house building in Basingstoke. Councillors must use the new powers to cut house building, at least until the NHS has caught up and, I would argue, until they find a way to further increase the capacity of our roads, which is technically very difficult.
Richard Foord (Tiverton and Honiton) (LD)
The right hon. Lady is talking about services that support communities in the Basingstoke area. On her point about building resilient communities, the NPPF was somewhat lacking when it defined such services in rather old-fashioned terms, such as community halls, schools and churches. They are important, but does she agree that we need to bring that up to date to reflect such things as good broadband and fibre to the premises?
Dame Maria Miller
I am sure the hon. Gentleman’s point has been heard loud and clear by the Minister. He is right that those are essential services on which all our residents now rely.
The updated NPPF deliberately does not provide an exhaustive list of the applicable exceptional circumstances. The NPPF now shows that exceptional circumstances are not to be drawn narrowly, which was too often asserted in the past by local authorities who readily chose to interpret them from case law alone. It is now clear that local authorities, including mine in Basingstoke, are able to set out their case for exceptional circumstances for a large number of reasons.
In Basingstoke, that could be the age demographics of our town. We are the most rapidly ageing population in Hampshire, with the number of over-65s growing by 77% in the last decade. The primary and most compelling factor that makes Basingstoke and Deane an outlier is our extraordinary levels of historic house building. At the start of the second world war, our population was just 13,000. By 1961, it had grown to 25,000. Today, our population is 186,000, so we have grown from 13,000 to 186,000 in less than a lifetime. Put another way, our population is now almost 1,500 times greater than it was in the second world war. Those are exceptional circumstances that have a clear bearing on the capacity of my community to absorb future high levels of house building.
Not only is such accelerated house building affecting our natural environment, especially our unique and irreplaceable north-flowing salmonoid chalk stream; it is also putting an unsustainable strain on public services, particularly our local roads and the NHS. The Government have invested record sums in my community, but we are fast feeling maxed out. There is to be a brand-new hospital, but not until 2032, and £60 million is expected on road improvements, but there is now no additional capacity technically possible.
Residents are clear about this. Thousands want to cut house building levels. They are living in a constant building site with more than 1,000 new homes being built every year, green space disappearing every day, and road works trying to squeeze the last ounce of capacity out of every road and junction. Enough is enough. Basingstoke and Deane Borough Council published its local plan, which clings to the now outdated policy of standard method as its end point, as if it continued to be set in stone. As a result, the draft plan fails to slow down house building, ratchets up building rates over time to dizzying levels and completely fails to reflect our exceptional circumstances, which I have just outlined.
John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
I thank the right hon. Lady for giving way. People also have to live in those communities and be entertained. Does she agree that music venues are enormously important for the cultural talent pipeline? The agent of change principle sought to protect those venues from neighbouring development. That is why it was incorporated into the planning policy guidance. Does she therefore agree that this now needs to be enshrined in law to strengthen the protection for music venues and for our musicians of the future?
Dame Maria Miller
The right hon. Gentleman may not know this, but I am the mother of two musicians and I would have to agree with him—for fear of the consequences if I did not. I hope that the Minister has listened to him as well, as he makes a valid point.
I know from conversations that I have had on the doorsteps in Basingstoke for many years that excessive house building is the No. 1 issue for many residents. It is so disappointing that the borough council has not yet exercised its new powers, especially given all the hard work that the Minister has put into changing the NPPF to better accommodate places with exceptional circumstances, such as Basingstoke.
Some of my councillors have supported a short-term approach, bagging the reduction in the five-year land supply to four years, but surely they should also share my concern that they could easily see further manipulation of developments being carried forward to make that apparent gain evaporate quite quickly. What we need is the long-term solution, not a quick fix.
None the less, I am an optimist. Basingstoke and Deane Borough Council started its public consultation on 22 January and it will run until 4 March, so that residents who are interested in the local plan and in house building levels can take part, and also perhaps support my petition at the same time, calling on the council to use its new powers to make the case for cutting house building levels to the planning inspector. Nothing is guaranteed; that is obvious. Evidence must be presented, and the case—the case that is right for the community—also has to be made. And what is right for the community is certainly not continuing house building at the current level.
I hope to embolden Basingstoke and Deane Borough Council to make changes. I hope the Minister can answer a couple of questions to help them on their way. First, will the planning inspector be expecting new interpretations of “exceptional circumstance” following the recent changes to the NPPF? Too often in the past I have been told that it applies only to the greenbelt. My reading is that that is no longer the case. Does he expect every local authority to at least acknowledge the new NPPF policies in their local plan? And would he share the surprise of local residents if any local authority were to completely ignore the new NPPF policies and act as if no changes had been made at all?
Nothing is more important to me than ensuring that everyone in my constituency has a place to live in—an affordable home. It is the Conservatives who have made sure that, in my constituency, affordable homes make up 40% of all new homes. However, Basingstoke has for decades being making up for the lack of house building elsewhere—in London, throughout the south-east and beyond. The Government changes to the NPPF mean that now our local planning authority, Basingstoke and Deane Borough Council, can take responsibility for ensuring that its house building plans reflect the exceptional circumstances that I have outlined in Basingstoke, and indeed in neighbouring Oakley and other surrounding villages, where the vast majority of house building has taken place. The council must look again at its plans, which were drawn up before these important new Government policies were launched, and do what is right. I believe what is right is to cut house building to a level that is appropriate for our community, taking into account the sort of nuanced circumstances that the Secretary of State talked about when he launched those new policies.
The Minister for Housing, Planning and Building Safety (Lee Rowley)
I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Dame Maria Miller) for securing the debate and for the excellent speech she just delivered on behalf of her constituents. She clearly stands up for her constituents, and I know they will have been listening tonight.
I know housing and planning is an important issue for the people of Basingstoke and, indeed, many people across the country. That is exactly why we took to update the national planning policy framework just before Christmas. This Government want to build more homes, but we want to build them in the right places. We want to build them more quickly, beautifully and sustainably. The right way to deliver that is through a reformed planning system that works. We are clear that it is only through up-to-date local plans that local authorities can deliver for communities, protect the land and assets that matter, and create the conditions for more homes to be delivered all across the country.
As the House knows, we consulted last year on a series of proposals and received more than 26,000 responses, demonstrating the interest in planning to so many communities up and down the land. The resulting update of the framework builds on the Levelling-up and Regeneration Act 2023 and delivers on the intent set out by the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities last year. It does so in a way that seeks to promote building the right homes in the right places with the right infrastructure, which will ensure that the environment is protected and will give local people a greater say on where, and where not, to place development.
Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD)
I thank the Minister for giving way and congratulate the right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Dame Maria Miller) on securing the debate.
On the issue of a local say, will the Minister expand slightly on the placement of things like solar farms? It is the wild west. In places such as Oxfordshire, we have a number of solar farms coming forward, including possibly the largest one in Europe at Botley West. For those that are over 50 MW, it does not feel like local say has anything to do with it. Did he consider that when the Government were creating this policy?
Lee Rowley
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her comments. Many colleagues in the House will have experienced solar farms, both on a constituency basis and from a national policy consideration. There is obviously a trade-off to be made here. The Liberal Democrats are extremely keen on renewable energy, as we all are, and there are implications to that. She is right to highlight that this has to be considered within the appropriate boundaries of the individual areas. That is exactly why the Government amended the national planning policy framework and exactly why the Conservatives are seeking to establish that balance. We will continue to try to ensure that that balance works for communities, while also getting us the energy we need, so that when we switch on the lights in the morning, they work.
As I said, we consulted on a series of proposals last year and received more than 26,000 responses. That demonstrates the importance of planning for local communities. I understand the concerns of my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke that Basingstoke and Deane district council has seen a high level of housing delivery, including in recent years, in excess of that set out in the adopted local plan in 2016. Indeed, the housing delivery test results for 2022, published in December, show that the district has delivered more homes than is required through the test. As my right hon. Friend outlined in her excellent speech, a number of measures were announced in the national planning policy framework update, and I hope to highlight a number of those that may assist the district council and other local councils bringing forward their local plans.
First, as my right hon. Friend indicated, we have been consistently clear that the standard method is a starting point for local authorities in assessing what to plan for and that it does not set a mandatory target. The framework now sets that out in national policy. Local authorities should be in no doubt that the outcome of the standard method is an advisory starting point for establishing housing requirements through plan-making. Again, for the avoidance of doubt, that means that local authorities can put forward their own approach to assessing needs where certain exceptional circumstances exist.
Dame Maria Miller
Can my hon. Friend confirm that there will be more types of exceptional circumstances put forward in the future than there have been in the past?
Lee Rowley
I am absolutely certain that there will be more cases for exceptional circumstances put forward in the future, and I encourage councils to consider them if they believe that they apply. Logically, I would then expect more cases for exceptional circumstances to be accepted by the Planning Inspectorate, although that will also be for the inspectorate to determine on a case-by-case basis. It is the Government’s intention to indicate that cases for exceptional circumstances can be made, that local authorities should weigh up making them and that, if they feel that they have a strong case through the Planning Inspectorate process, they do so for the good of the communities they seek to serve.
Secondly, the revised NPPF now sets out that there may be situations where higher urban densities would be wholly out of character with the existing area, and that that could be a strong reason why significantly uplifting densities would be inappropriate. Thirdly, our changes to the five-year housing land supply policy mean that up-to-date local plans should no longer have to demonstrate a five-year housing land supply. My right hon. Friend has articulated some of that already, and the considerations going on within her Hampshire constituency, but there is additional flexibility where local authorities are doing the right thing in getting their plans in place and making sure they are retained.
As someone representing a constituency that has suffered from planning issues over many decades, I recognise there is always difficulty around planning in individual local areas. I understand that, and it is one of the reasons why I am so keen to send a message that, while we are clear that we need more houses in this country—we absolutely do—they have to go in the right places. It would be incorrect, wrong and irresponsible of us to say “no more housing” when we need people to get on the housing ladder. We value the benefits to our society that a property-owning democracy brings and we celebrate every first-time buyer who gets on the ladder, because that opens up to them the opportunities that gaining and accreting capital provide.
At the same time, however, we have to accept that not every area, every place or every landscape is appropriate for building on. It is the responsibility of local councils to make sure that they are weighing that up properly, getting ahead of what will always be challenging decisions and having the conversations they need to have with local communities at the earliest possible stage.
Once again, I thank my right hon. Friend for securing this debate. She ended with three questions, and I want to touch on those before I conclude.
John Spellar
This is not just a question of housing; it is also about public and private facilities and a community. As I indicated in my intervention on the right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Dame Maria Miller), part of that is about entertainment and social areas, particularly music venues, which are still under pressure. I do not expect an answer tonight, but will the Minister take away the issue of enshrining in legislation some strength for local authorities to protect not only local amenities, but the pipeline of talent for our enormously important cultural industries?
Lee Rowley
I will certainly take that point away, but I hope the right hon. Gentleman will accept that there always a balance about what to put in primary legislation. The law cannot mandate virtue, and we have to find ways to ensure that our statute book does not get too big and unwieldy—there is an argument that we are already heading in that direction after 30, 40 or 50 years of incessant legislating. However, I recognise the important point he makes and I will certainly give it further consideration, although I hope he hears my reticence to state automatically that legislation is always required in all cases.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke asked three questions at the end of her speech. I hope that I have covered the question of exceptional circumstances to some extent. It is absolutely the case that local authorities should put such cases forward where reasonable and proportionate, and where they have a clear case. I would expect more exceptional circumstance cases to be made, and it is for the Planning Inspectorate to determine their outcome based on the merits or otherwise of their individual circumstances.
Dame Maria Miller
On that point about exceptional circumstances, many local authorities appear to be concerned that pleading exceptional circumstances will land them with a big legal bill and that they will be challenged in the courts. Can the Minister give some comfort to those authorities that such cases will be looked upon by planning inspectors as something that they expect?
Lee Rowley
My right hon. Friend highlights a continuing challenge with the local plan-making process where other actors have issues and considerations. The planning system will never be perfect and give everybody the outcome that they want, but it is important that local planning authorities representing their local areas have the ability to fully consider the importance of planning for their local area and to put forward their arguments in good faith, whether about exceptional circumstances or just through the conventional process, and have them discussed in interactions with the Planning Inspectorate on behalf of the Secretary of State. I encourage them to do so. Although the issue my right hon. Friend raises is not a new one, that should not retard the ability of people, organisations, councils and planning authorities to have the debates and discussions that they need to with local communities and the planning inspector.
On the second question, we absolutely expect local authorities to take into account the NPPF. It has been clear that the NPPF is extant from the moment that it was put in place. There are transitional arrangements for some elements of it at the end, but it is for local authorities to take that into account. I would be surprised if local authorities were not doing that, because the whole purpose of how they approach plans is to recognise transitional arrangements and the fact that different local authorities will be in different places and will have to work out precisely how to consider them. It is vital that local authorities take note of the national planning policy framework and the update that has been made.
I know that planning is hugely important for local communities. My right hon. Friend has articulated in great detail the particular issues in Basingstoke. Indeed, as constituency MPs, we all have such individual circumstances. She is absolutely right to raise those points and highlight the changes that have come and the opportunities that they provide. She is right to stand up for her constituents. It is important that we get planning right. Things will never be perfect, but by having these conversations and making changes, I hope that we can make progress as a Government and a country to build more homes, but in the right places.
Question put and agreed to.